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01:20:19 <esolangs> [[QLTYE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180636&oldid=180608 * Cleverxia * (+292)
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01:32:42 <esolangs> [[User:LynChern/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180637&oldid=180585 * LynChern * (+2327) /* */
01:45:10 <esolangs> [[Queje]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180638&oldid=180612 * Cleverxia * (+449)
01:47:59 <esolangs> [[Queje]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180639&oldid=180638 * Cleverxia * (+35) /* Program flow */
01:51:22 <esolangs> [[Queje]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180640&oldid=180639 * Cleverxia * (+0)
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02:26:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180641&oldid=179640 * Qazwsxplm * (+99) /* why */
02:34:09 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180642&oldid=179242 * Qazwsxplm * (-7) /* Rules */
02:39:16 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180643&oldid=180642 * Qazwsxplm * (+15) /* By Qazwsxplm */
02:43:57 <zzo38> What I like about TI-92 is the QWERTY keyboard, the unlit display, the REPL that starts immediately, the ability to program it right on there easily, etc. However, there are also disadvantages, such as being slow, and not being FOSS. However, I seem to be having some problems with it which I think is a problem with the power (even if I install new batteries).
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03:23:00 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180644&oldid=180618 * Gilbert189 * (+17) /* P */
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04:58:57 <esolangs> [[Oragami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180645&oldid=180630 * Miui * (+692) /* How to conceptualize bitwise AFG traversal */
05:22:40 <esolangs> [[Queje]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180646&oldid=180640 * Cleverxia * (+197) /* Program flow */
05:25:57 <esolangs> [[Oragami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180647&oldid=180645 * Miui * (+453) /* Memory safety/management */
05:35:44 <esolangs> [[Oragami]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180648&oldid=180647 * Miui * (+61) /* Memory safety/management */
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06:04:27 <zzo38> Do you know when the PDF for SIGBOVIK will be available?
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07:19:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180649&oldid=180615 * Sisobus * (+140) Introducing myself
07:22:18 <esolangs> [[Windy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180650 * Sisobus * (+15398) Initial entry for Windy
07:26:29 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180651&oldid=180644 * Sisobus * (+12) add Windy
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09:47:43 <esolangs> [[~!SayWrite]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180652 * Timm * (+1691) Created page with "<code>~! ============================================= ~! ~!SayWrite RULES (self-demonstrating program) ~! ============================================= _Start ~! RULE 1: Variables = exactly 3 chars (any Unicode), initially 0. let AAA be 0 let BBB be 1 let AAA be BBB
09:48:27 <esolangs> [[~!SayWrite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180653&oldid=180652 * Timm * (-1677) Replaced content with "<code> <code/>"
09:59:40 <esolangs> [[~!SayWrite]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180654&oldid=180653 * Timm * (+2016)
10:08:48 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Silicon dioxide in a polypropylene box/QLTYLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180655&oldid=180614 * PrySigneToFry * (+246)
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10:13:28 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180657&oldid=180656 * PrySigneToFry * (+17)
10:13:47 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180658&oldid=180657 * PrySigneToFry * (+1)
10:14:18 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180659&oldid=180658 * PrySigneToFry * (-16)
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10:15:48 <esolangs> [[User:PrySigneToFry/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180660&oldid=180659 * PrySigneToFry * (-88)
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10:32:08 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Duodecem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180661 * PrySigneToFry * (+7253) Created page with "<div style="background:black;color:white;"> <big><big><big><big><big><big><span style='font-family: Times New Roman, Serif'>There is no real beginning, nor is there a real end. Everything is just a cycle.</span></big></big></big></big></
10:33:08 <esolangs> [[Translated ZhongWen/Mihai Again Chapter 13]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180662&oldid=177736 * PrySigneToFry * (+97)
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11:38:28 <esolangs> [[QLTYE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180663&oldid=180636 * Cleverxia * (+205)
12:00:40 <esolangs> [[User:Timm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180664&oldid=179409 * Timm * (+18)
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12:29:11 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cerdef * New user account
12:30:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Translated ZhongWen/PSTF Duodecem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180665 * Cleverxia * (+296) Created page with "it's impossible to translate any more. but we can just use the whole page to translate and do meta-1, meta-2 and so on. Once some meta-x is too short, we can translate the meta-x page again to get 2-1, 2-2,... ~~~~"
12:34:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Cleverxia * moved [[Queje]] to [[Stjck]]: the specification changed, and it is no longer based on queues.
12:38:06 <esolangs> [[Stjck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180668&oldid=180666 * Cleverxia * (+204)
12:38:41 <esolangs> [[Queje]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180669&oldid=180667 * Cleverxia * (-19) no longer a redirect
12:39:29 <esolangs> [[User:Cleverxia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180670&oldid=180611 * Cleverxia * (+0) /* Current Esolangs I've created */ the name changed
12:44:10 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180671&oldid=177786 * Ractangle * (-17) /* Examples */
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17:18:20 <korvo> I've figured out a naked-objects browser for Vixen. It's extensional; I ask objects to answer five methods (name, description, methods, files, objects) and generate a GUI for them. Right now I've generated a Web app and I'm adding more functionality to the shell.
17:19:16 <korvo> I'm starting to notice patterns in what I've previously developed. Cammy has an object browser and a REPL. In Cammy, if you click on something that has the type of a pixel-maker (the "attitude" of "pictures") then the Web browser will show you the rendered pixels in addition to the AST.
17:20:03 <korvo> The pixels are like an extensional model for the pixel-making expression. The methods are like an extensional model for directories-as-objects.
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18:30:24 <esolangs> [[Memristor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180672 * Miui * (+563) Created page with "Memristor is a language for describing OOP using hardware description language that is understood to be gradient to an interval of hysteresis pinch. The esolang [[User:Miui]] found handy was an ehdl (esoteric hardware description language) that looks like this <br> {|
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18:46:31 <aadenboy> unless I just haven't been paying enough attention, there seems to be an influx in AI-generated esolangs
18:46:49 <aadenboy> at least this year/few months alone
18:50:15 <esolangs> [[Memristor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180673&oldid=180672 * Miui * (+21)
18:51:10 <esolangs> [[User:LynChern/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180674&oldid=180637 * LynChern * (+294) /* */
18:51:50 <esolangs> [[User:LynChern/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180675&oldid=180674 * LynChern * (+0) /* */
18:52:00 <esolangs> [[User:LynChern/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180676&oldid=180675 * LynChern * (-13) /* */
18:57:35 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180677&oldid=180635 * Miui * (-103) /* current scope */
18:58:24 <esolangs> [[User:LynChern/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180678&oldid=180676 * LynChern * (+163) /* */
18:58:43 <esolangs> [[User:LynChern/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180679&oldid=180678 * LynChern * (-2) /* */
19:07:53 <esolangs> [[Memristor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180680&oldid=180673 * Miui * (+61) /* See also */
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19:25:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Memristor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=180681 * Miui * (+98) Created page with "[[User:Miui]] found the interpreter here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shakespeare#External_resources."
19:27:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fantzy * New user account
19:29:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Memristor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180682&oldid=180681 * Miui * (+36)
19:33:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Memristor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=180683&oldid=180682 * Miui * (+38)
19:46:57 <ais523> although it's more like an influx in AI-written pages that look like esolang specs
19:47:19 <ais523> on closer examination, many of them don't describe actual esolangs, they just look like they do
19:47:58 <b_jonas> eh, a lot of the old pages were like that too, that's not really a change
19:48:27 <ais523> I'm still trying to make out what to do with pages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_bliss-pit
19:48:48 <ais523> b_jonas: so I think there are two basic categories of pages on the wiki that appear to describe esolangs
19:49:13 <ais523> one of them is where an actual language exists, and the page is trying to give details on the language; some of these are very light on details, e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jelly
19:49:54 <ais523> and the other is where someone has written about a hypothetical language as though it were real – the "lesser-known programming languages" is one of the oldest examples of this
19:50:12 <ais523> (although in many cases an actual language was designed based on the description)
19:50:21 <ais523> oh, TURKEY BOMB is another good example of the latter sort
19:50:56 <ais523> I think that basically all of the first category of pages are desirable (although in the case of an AI-generated language we would want a non-AI-written description of it)
19:51:08 <ais523> the latter category, much of it we don't want, but I think it would be wrong to exclude all of it
19:53:24 <int-e> Wow, [A bliss-pit] achieves near-fungot levels of coherence.
19:53:55 <ais523> well, the author seemed to have a narrative in mind (fungot usually doesn't)
19:54:41 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/A_bliss-pit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xkcd_1537 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xkcd_1537 are of the latter kind, there's no actual language that they don't describe; so is https://esolangs.org/wiki/PL/MIX
19:56:22 <int-e> It's clearly miscategorized. But it's a failure even as an attempt of off-topic entertainment. Just awkwardly punning a few esolang keywords just isn't enough :-/
19:56:38 <b_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd is an empty page that looks like it never even tried to describe a language
19:56:38 <ais523> I feel like, for non-languages, the value of the page depends on a) whether anyone's likely to expand it into a real language, b) whether people are likely to want to discover more information about it. c) how good the joke is
19:57:15 <int-e> . o O ( "Why did I read this." )
19:58:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd]] to [[Talk:Spellblocks]]: Revert move renaming a page to a random title is not a good way to try to delete it, it just means that you end up with more pages that need deleting
19:58:09 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Spellblocks]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[Dfhjdsbfjhdsgfsdjhfbsdhhfbnshd]]"
19:58:28 <int-e> TBH I don't think the problem here is to decide what *should* be done with such pages. It's finding the bandwidth to actually moderate all the new crap.
19:58:57 <ais523> int-e: the problem is finding the boundary
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19:59:33 <ais523> what's the reasoning for "I ran this page describing an esolang through some translation tools and laughed at the result" being deletable, but something like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Vaguest not being so?
20:00:09 <ais523> the PL/MIX page should probably stay because it is something that people might potentially want to look up
20:00:56 <int-e> Well if we want to allow good jokes, it will be subjective.
20:01:24 <int-e> [Vaguest] kind of works on a meta level but I don't think anyone would miss it ;-)
20:01:28 <b_jonas> yes, PL/MIX is one of those cases where Knuth's failures are more interesting than an ordinary programmer's successes, so they're worth to document
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20:01:43 <korvo> I proposed a basic boundary: https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Corbin/Spring_cleaning
20:03:22 <ais523> korvo: that isn't really a boundary, that's just a list of pages
20:03:36 <ais523> it presents a couple of principles, but even those are not generalisable to things they don't directly cover
20:04:17 <korvo> ais523: I guess I'm not convinced that any written-by-AI pages are interesting.
20:04:32 <ais523> korvo: that is a principle but I don't think it's a dividing line
20:05:01 <ais523> things like "is this page describing an actual language" are potential dividing lines, but may not be in the right place
20:05:41 <ais523> (it should be noted that in theory, any executable that doesn't interpret a practical language can be considered to be an esolang interpreter – so if the AI has made an executable to go with the language spec, a language theoretically exists, although it may not have anything to do with the specification)
20:06:04 <korvo> I agree that it's a bandwidth problem. It'd be quite frustrating if this were a problem of boundaries and dividing lines when one of my items is merely to delete a user's second sandbox.
20:06:52 <korvo> ...Would you find an article interesting if I assured you that I generated it with a d20? What's the burden of proof for that?
20:10:27 <ais523> korvo: the wiki (at least originally) wasn't so much about "interesting" as about "preserving information" – one of the things that is hardest for me to deal with as an admin is when someone comes up with an idea for a language, posts it to the wiki, decides it was a bad idea and tries to delete it (but other people may have been interested in it and want to find out what the language is like)
20:10:54 <ais523> in a sense, documenting the useless or bad ideas is particularly important to stop people wasting time trying to track down details on a wild goose chase
20:11:47 <ais523> a great example is https://esolangs.org/wiki/IMAGERY which I found an interesting source of inspiration despite there clearly being no useful language there
20:12:13 <korvo> Sure. I feel that most edits are citogenic at best, though; they aren't documenting the past, but imagining a hypothetical future.
20:12:23 <ais523> (in particular, I realised that the rule 110 interpreter potentially *does* generalise and it would be possible to generate "rules for an esolang" that would happen, if given a picture of a running cellular automaton, to extend the picture)
20:14:03 <int-e> Wikis used to have a natural filter that's now broken though: A person would have to be inspired enough by an idea to write an article about it. Now all these parts are optional.
20:14:08 <int-e> (discounting spam)
20:14:53 <int-e> So unfortunately, even if "preserve everything" was the idea in the past, I don't think it works in this LLM era.
20:15:13 <aadenboy> ais523: there's been a few times where I've done that, but I've only moved it to userspace instead so I can still think or reflect about it if time comes, and I've been tacking on other ideas I am not fully confident with in the same area as well
20:15:36 <ais523> aadenboy: I am OK with a move to userspace, it is clear what happened and no information is lost
20:16:10 <ais523> I am less OK with people doing things like "deleting" a page by renaming it to the name of the next page they are creating and overwriting it, meaning that the same page contains the history of all the pages they've ever deleted
20:16:25 <ais523> because it is confusing to work out what happened and an extreme pain to undo as an admin
20:16:55 <aadenboy> plus broken/irrelevant redirects
20:17:26 <ais523> int-e: I think probably the best solution to AI-generated languages is to redirect to a list of them describing the basic idea (especially given that the details don't really matter due to having been randomly generated and are often self-contradictory)
20:17:31 <int-e> (TBH I'm rather detached from this, because there's a strong filter between the wiki and my access to it: Usually I only end up there because I follow some link (usually from IRC) or from one page to another. Oh and I guess the occasional search engine hit.)
20:18:03 <ais523> really we would want a list describing the name of the language idea and the prompt used to create a specification
20:21:52 <ais523> korvo: anyway I really have been wanting to put up a draft policy to allow more page deletions (in particular I also want user-editable pages to be deleted unless there's evidence that they have actually created a viable language), but I have failed to do so due to a lack of mental bandwidth (both in general and due to having higher-priority things to do on the rare occasions that I have sufficient mental bandwidth to do anything at all)
20:26:46 * ais523 suddenly realises that AI-generated languages should probably be merged into the list of ideas
20:27:44 <ais523> …because the only useful part of the page is the idea
20:28:03 <int-e> . o O ( assuming there was one )
20:28:22 <int-e> Like I fully believe that some of these prompts are just "make an esolang"
20:28:44 <int-e> and maybe a few templates and instructions about style
20:30:54 <korvo> ais523: Well, thanks to the magic of chronic unemployment in a crumbling economy, I have plenty of bandwidth for drafting policies. I can leave them on the relevant talk pages.
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20:42:58 <fizzie> Saw the "near-fungot levels of coherence" comment and it made me realize it was gone again.
20:42:59 <fungot> fizzie: the coyotos folks sadly turned down transparent persistence at a level of indirection. kawa compiles to a simplified bfm subset, which itself is used with mhp?
20:48:53 <fizzie> I suspect it's about the Scheme implementation instead.
20:50:57 <fizzie> (The "irc" style includes material from the #scheme channel as well. And nothing from the last decade.)
21:04:31 <ais523> I wonder whether giving fungot a new decade of material would even help
21:04:31 <fungot> ais523: mm. that's funny, it *didn't* bother me at first blush, riastradh, for your information
21:05:18 <int-e> it might produce more recognizable nicks :P
21:05:34 <int-e> other than that, I suspect the answer is no
21:07:16 <ais523> korvo: what do you think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Windy ? an LLM was clearly involved somewhere but it is much more coherent than the typical LLM-written page
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21:08:03 <ais523> I haven't yet determined whether it's actually a language or whether it's something that does a really good job of looking like an esolang spec without being one
21:08:34 <int-e> Maybe there's a useful distinction to be made between LLM-generated and LLM-edited.
21:11:02 <int-e> (The difficulty is to tell those apart. And there's a philosophical question related to the infinite monkeys thing: If you generate something using an LLM, read it, and decide it's interesting... is that enough of a filter to make it suitable?)
21:14:52 <int-e> "The language has 35 opcodes total." -- it's such a terrible idea to put this into a language description ;-) (I counted 44)
21:16:41 <int-e> Some details are bad. What is the "Arbitrary precision throughout" subsection saying?
21:17:27 <ais523> really the "correct" things to do with this sort of language are to reverse-engineer the spec from the implementation
21:17:37 <ais523> but that is a lot of effort that it's unreasonable to ask any given person to put in
21:18:27 <int-e> "Speed, like the stack, is BigInt"
21:19:02 <ais523> I think that's more likely to be written by a human than a computer, but I'm not sure
21:19:14 <int-e> Eh, it's really pretty bad when you get to the details. Could be purely LLM generated with something contemporary that "thinks" a lot.
21:19:38 <int-e> Or maybe there *is* human direction at the high level. Who knows!
21:20:55 <int-e> It says "sparse grid" but never defines what that means
21:21:29 <ais523> hmm, I think I know what that means, but it is a sign of AI – it is confusing the specification with the implementation, which AIs do a lot more than humans do (but humans do sometimes too)
21:23:39 <int-e> it claims TC-ness but it's unclear how unbounded coordinates would contribute to that. (speeds are too limited to do interesting interceptions with the "collision merge"). It's probably TC purely because you can fit a 2 register Minsky machine.
21:27:01 <int-e> Oh, I'm wrong, it has random access into *something*.
21:29:54 <int-e> Eh. That raises different questions though: what happens if a written value is not a Unicode point?
21:30:47 <ais523> isn't this basically the same issue that Funge-98 implementations have?
21:32:09 <korvo> ais523: It is coherent but also junk, if that makes sense?
21:32:14 <int-e> oh and if you write a '>', and then read, will that give back '>' or '→'...
21:32:48 <ais523> int-e: the sensible way to interpret the article is that any > in the source code gets macro-replaced to → before the program even starts to run
21:32:58 <ais523> that might not be what the implementation actually does, of course
21:33:06 <int-e> ais523: so, some of what I wrote was wrong (I missed the `p` and `g` instructions) but it's still annoying how much things fall apart when you try to delve into the details
21:33:58 <int-e> ais523: well, it says "the printed form"
21:34:15 <int-e> (at least in one place)
21:35:23 <int-e> But it's probably substantial enough to deserve a place on the wiki? Maybe with a warning to treat it as a concept rather than a specification :P)
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21:37:09 <int-e> ais523: regarding the sparse thing... the usual way we'd do this is to say that there's an infinite grid and all but a finite part is initially filled with spaces
21:37:20 <int-e> (said finite part is given by the source code)
21:37:46 <int-e> so the sparseness is an implementation detail that has no place in a specification
21:40:02 <ais523> int-e: agreed, I was talking about how the specification is confused with an implementation
22:04:36 <b_jonas> sometimes those implementation details can make it easier for the reader to understand the rules of the language
22:04:48 <b_jonas> perhaps not in thise case though
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22:37:36 <ais523> OK so I think the issue is that there isn't a straightforward/simple answer to this sort of thing, and I don't have the mental energy to work out a complicated one
22:47:19 <fizzie> The repository for that thing might be the first one I've seen those "X and claude" attributions outside of screenshots.
22:47:21 <fizzie> (There's a SPEC.md file in it that's more detailed than the wiki article, by the way.)
22:55:44 <fizzie> Funge-98 requires the Funge-Space cells to use the same data type as the Stack Stack, and for that type to be a signed integer type that's at least strongly suggested if not required to be bounded. It doesn't define how characters are encoded in source files.
23:02:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: why? can't putting to funge-space just truncate values? there's enough stack manipulation that the program can encode a bigger integer from the stack to multiple funge cells
23:10:16 <fizzie> The spec doesn't say why, but it's very explicit about that being the case.
23:10:29 <fizzie> "The important thing is that the stack cells have the same memory size as the Funge-Space cells."
23:10:53 <fizzie> It could just be because that's more convenient for the programmer.
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23:19:45 <ais523> fizzie: I'm pretty sure that cpressey decided that bignum Funge-98 didn't violate the spec (or at least that the spec should be modified to allow it), although it probably wasn't part of the initial plans
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