00:00:04 <salpynx> re. ssll, I think some creators of 'good' languages felt slighted that their jokes were not being acknowledged? I think some of the most interesting language are doign something 'funny', but legitimately interesting too
00:01:28 <korvo> It's a spectrum. Even on the most serious end, proglangs usually have silly punny names; the popular languages are e.g. Python, C, Java, C♯, which have interesting stories behind them. I generally hold off on documenting/implementing a language until I have a good name.
00:02:34 <korvo> Okay, it's speedrunning time. Have a good night, y'all.
00:03:12 <ais523> salpynx: there's a genuine field of study of esolangs as art – this isn't the way I primarily view them but some people do
00:03:23 <ais523> (but it's different from studying esolang *specifications* as art)
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00:10:47 <salpynx> having a clear ontology of concepts would help, I feel like I've only just understood that some users are really only interested in creating specifications, whereas I'd been linking the specs and language because I'm not sure how to unlink them. Computation model and language also gets tricky, TWM and Minsky machines come to mind as difficult to pigeon hole
00:12:38 <ais523> IMO there's a clear distinction between a specification (which exists as a method of communication, to convey your notion of how a language works to other people), and something that is designed to resemble a specification but isn't linked to a language (which exists basically because language specifications can be an art form but the language actually existing isn't necessarily an essential part of the art)
00:17:15 <salpynx> right, so it's something taking the _form_ of a language specification, without necessary functioning as one, or that being the primary purpose
00:23:31 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:2026 topicality proposal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182005&oldid=182004 * Hotcrystal0 * (+398)
00:32:05 <salpynx> I don't quite get that last comment on the page then, creating languages from scratch _is_ allowed. Seems likre there's some confusion about what we are talking about. Creating the page before the language exists at any level is the problem
00:33:29 <esolangs> [[User:Tommyaweosme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182006&oldid=181873 * Tommyaweosme * (+0)
00:33:33 <salpynx> maybe there is a legitimate confustion about what a language is? Maybe there's a view that all you need is a name, then a 'spec'. The name is enough to create a page, then the spec is jsut what gets written on the page?
00:34:28 <salpynx> too many typos sorry, I need to go get food to focus!
00:35:46 <salpynx> esolangs should be educational too, if there's a way to communicate some of this better, we'd all likely benefit
00:39:19 <ais523> one reason I don't like the user-edited languages is that they typically don't have any sort of plan to create a command set that could be used for programming with
00:40:08 <ais523> when I create a language based on a set of commands, I am typically looking for a set that's sufficient to accomplish the goal I had for the language but without anything that's unnecessary towards that goal
00:50:30 <b_jonas> ok, devil's advocate. the page for efghij specifically claims that users can define additions. would you want to delete that page?
00:51:24 <ais523> b_jonas: no because it's already a usable language
00:51:54 <ais523> the reason to delete user-edited pages is because they don't tend to lead to usable languages, if something already is a usable language that reason doesn't apply
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01:32:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:2026 topicality proposal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182007&oldid=182005 * Tommyaweosme * (+215) /* How would "esolanging" work after this? */
01:49:12 <esolangs> [[Infinite commands???]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182008&oldid=173585 * Tommyaweosme * (+12) /* Interpreter */
02:01:06 <esolangs> [[Windy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182009&oldid=180650 * Sisobus * (+35) change github repo path
02:10:49 <salpynx> focusing back on behaviour rather than content: would restricting new user accounts to 5 edits a day (use them wisely!), then unlimited after some period of time solve all the practical problems at a system level?
02:11:02 <salpynx> I'd hate to resonisbile for some rigid rule that deleted efghij because I can't communicate clearly. The community has a bunch of unwritten rules that we've all broken with a wink and a nod. To clarify them has me worrying about ontologies and definitions, and zen-like "the page is a finger pointing at the moon, not the moon" koans, when ppl who likely need this level of specific guidance don't care.
02:13:45 <ais523> I'm not sure an edits/day restriction would have the intended effect, except to make reviewing pages easier
02:16:00 <salpynx> it'd reduce the sustained adrenaline rush or whatever fuels the excitement of an endless blank canvas of a permissive fully open wiki, and enforce more thoughtful edits since they are a limited resource
02:20:23 <salpynx> break the payoff and engagement loop, by altering the game design and reward more thoughtful play styles
02:22:30 <salpynx> "make reviewing pages easier" is a pretty decent goal, and there were 'broken windows' complaints brought up on IRC and the recent talk page where Randomm page and recent edits can look like 100% low quality. A slowdown would allow other content to shine through
02:22:45 <salpynx> ... just a though, slightly outside the box
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02:51:48 <b_jonas> I don't think limiting edits per day would help much, unless it's extreme, like no edits at all other than the Intro page until your account is two months old
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03:19:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:2026 topicality proposal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182010&oldid=182007 * Salpynx * (+1612) /* Collaborative languages */ simple requirement: main subject space pages be 'articles' about the named topic
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04:03:57 <esolangs> [[Monte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182011&oldid=174165 * Corbin * (+402) Explain the name pun.
04:05:05 <esolangs> [[Monte]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=182012&oldid=182011 * Corbin * (+32) Add section for references.