00:03:35 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietoncracklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192117&oldid=192070 * Miui * (+50) /* See also */ move to yeah
00:03:49 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietoncracklang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192118&oldid=192117 * Miui * (-2) /* See also */ fix link
00:04:33 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietoncracklang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192119&oldid=192118 * Miui * (+0) move to external
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00:05:28 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietonracklang/Pgmpietonracklang+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192120&oldid=192068 * Miui * (-3261) Blanked the page
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01:04:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * MarkFan8901 * moved [[Turing Completeness Proof of Leafuck]] to [[Leafuck/Proof of Turing completeness]]: sub-page for cleanliness
01:06:31 <esolangs> [[Leafuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192123&oldid=185361 * MarkFan8901 * (+0)
01:08:53 <esolangs> [[Leafuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192124&oldid=192123 * MarkFan8901 * (-1) no comma
01:11:55 <esolangs> [[Rotary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192125&oldid=153795 * MarkFan8901 * (-20) fix bf spelling and change Computational class/Turing-completeness to just Computational class
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02:12:36 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192126&oldid=191987 * Miui * (+299) /* personal esopages */ just some miscellaneous lost kingdom fandom activities (added article mirror + archive backup)
02:36:06 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192127&oldid=192126 * Miui * (-34) /* personal esopages */ fixed archive link (was previously a screenshot)
03:07:41 <esolangs> [[Noisychicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192128&oldid=192077 * FordsTheodore * (+54)
03:20:09 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192129&oldid=191664 * Miui * (+16) /* Ideas for Names */ moved previous name idea (i think i messed up the flow of dialog from Yoyolin) + added
04:07:54 <esolangs> [[Noisychicken]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192130&oldid=192128 * FordsTheodore * (+863) add N. interpreter
04:48:34 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192131&oldid=192129 * Miui * (+753) /* General Ideas */ add language idea based on rule 30 sonnet 30
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05:17:18 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192132&oldid=190536 * Miui * (+25) // Example-based languages \n; Pgmpietoncracklang ; //
05:32:03 <b_jonas> the new one is 2020-03 per https://xkcd.com/2459/
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05:57:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192133&oldid=192112 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+251)
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06:37:50 <MarkFan8901> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mario_Maker_Calculator_is_not_Turing-complete this is a really funny page
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06:39:42 <MarkFan8901> it dramatically sets up a bunch of stuff before it just goes "it cant loop so it cant be tc"
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06:42:44 <MarkFan8901> should they be subpages of the langauge in question (if theyre about one)?
06:42:49 <MarkFan8901> or should they be their own separate pages
06:43:13 <MarkFan8901> cuz Category:Proofs seems to be split pretty evenly between them
06:43:35 <MarkFan8901> personally we think they should be subpages
06:58:07 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192134&oldid=192102 * Dragoneater67 * (+12) moral of the story: dont edit pages @ 2am
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07:16:54 <fungot> MarkFan8901: stop bleeding!) answers for ml at http://www.hprog.org/ fnord) dates back to the argument
07:17:11 <MarkFan8901> fnord) seems to be a common token with fungot
07:17:11 <fungot> MarkFan8901: linux would probably choke and gag and blow chunks long before reaching two million threads, whereas gambit would run just fnord has been accepted.
07:19:22 <int-e> It's mostly cosmetic, isn't it? Proof_that_Brainfuck_is_Turing_Complete is unlikely to clash with another esolang.
07:19:57 <int-e> Though as a matter of organization I'd prefer subpages. That may be programmer minded... we love hierarchical namespaces.
07:20:05 <MarkFan8901> well on the other hand having it be a subpage would *definitely* help not clash with another esolang
07:21:16 <MarkFan8901> also also we are thinking about adding discussion to the topicality proposal
07:21:32 <MarkFan8901> specifically we wanna develop our "containers for raw ideas" argument more
07:21:54 <MarkFan8901> [[GangLang]] is a perfect example of what we're talking about
07:22:30 <MarkFan8901> nothing about the actual language itself really matters, the point is that its a language based around gang talk
07:23:12 <MarkFan8901> it could be a c-like or lisp or a forth-like and none of that would meaningfully change its identity
07:23:25 <MarkFan8901> but there's two caveats we have in mind with that point
07:25:42 <MarkFan8901> firstly it doesnt account for complete nonsense
07:25:51 <MarkFan8901> shit where you dont even know where they really got the idea from
07:26:31 <int-e> one-up: shit where you don't even know whether there's an idea in there
07:27:05 <MarkFan8901> but secondly, it would also step on the toes of esolangs which are made specifically around some real thing as a premise
07:28:22 <MarkFan8901> [[Inflexión]] would be a great example of this if it weren't ai generated
07:28:35 <int-e> (The wiki has a slop problem (some LLM, some not, the phenomenon isn't new; the volume has increased though). It's very easy to acknowledge but actually stomping down on it would require serious sustained effort.)
07:28:41 <MarkFan8901> actually creating a language based off a natural language
07:29:00 <MarkFan8901> we are specifically trying to narrow down what 'slop' is
07:29:52 <MarkFan8901> it also wouldnt be hard to imagine how you could create a language based off thinking about how, say, clocks work
07:30:35 <inhahe> maybe it'd be a language for analog computers ;D
07:30:36 <MarkFan8901> but you could also just make a slop shit page themed around clocks
07:31:03 <MarkFan8901> there's really interesting stuff you could do with that idea even just saying it
07:31:12 <MarkFan8901> and that would be working backwards from the premise
07:31:31 <int-e> Well... tricky, because it's hardly objective. I'm mostly interested in semantics. So any page that's just a syntax for something (either borrowing an existing semantics or not specifying one at all, just putting a few examples) is boring to me. But I can see how if you're more linguistically inclined, a novel vocabulary might actually be stimulating.
07:31:55 <int-e> "it" being what slop is
07:32:09 <MarkFan8901> yes we are obsessed with being able to define things precisely
07:33:43 <MarkFan8901> the reason why it tends to be so difficult is because it takes serious critical analysis to not only understand and articulate what patterns you see, but also why you see them and why you feel the way you do about them
07:34:35 <MarkFan8901> to an extent, its politics, and like any good politics you need to be vulnerable with what you say
07:35:19 <MarkFan8901> crucially, 'working backwards from a premise' is not what we're trying to point out when we say "containers for raw ideas"
07:35:25 <MarkFan8901> which means we're trying to get at something else
07:36:27 <MarkFan8901> we saw glimmers of something very interesting when ais started talking about constant languages
07:36:40 <MarkFan8901> you guys have probably seen them but pretend you haven't so we can explain them
07:37:21 <MarkFan8901> constant languages are basically just languages in which every program has the same semantics
07:38:14 <MarkFan8901> typically the 'semantics' in question is just the language outputting some string
07:39:00 <MarkFan8901> which has a property thats only a little interesting
07:39:13 <MarkFan8901> that every constant language has a quine, where the quine is simply the output of the constant language
07:40:04 <MarkFan8901> this leads to quine-preventing constant languages, which have constant semantics *except* when fed its own output
07:40:57 <MarkFan8901> that's where the canon about constant languages stop to our knowledge
07:41:05 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192135&oldid=192134 * Dragoneater67 * (+40) yet again, dont edit pages @ 2am
07:41:12 <MarkFan8901> but ais started wondering about cyclic quines
07:42:08 <MarkFan8901> in which a program outputs another program which outputs the first program
07:42:46 <MarkFan8901> he and some others (including us) extrapolated on this idea a bit before putting it back down
07:42:49 <int-e> Those can be interesting, but there's a boring generic approach where you just modify a counter in each step of the cycle.
07:43:14 <int-e> Related, but also very different: https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
07:43:48 <MarkFan8901> that's genuine creativity and ingenuity having come from what's supposed to be a slop concept
07:44:18 <MarkFan8901> we breathed life into something that should have been just another lazy contribution to the wiki
07:44:36 <int-e> (The thing about the quine relay is that one language can quote for several subsequent languages at once. So including languages for which quines are a bit tricky (say, Brainfuck) becomes trivial.)
07:45:34 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192136&oldid=192135 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-16) /* Example */ generalize cuz why not lmao. think it makes sense.
07:45:39 <int-e> (trivial: you just have to figure out how to print an arbtirary string)
07:46:43 <MarkFan8901> the track we were following was that the concept of having quines lead to different quines sounded a lot like edges to nodes on a graph
07:47:19 <MarkFan8901> and we speculated that perhaps some tweaking of how it worked could lead to a tc system
07:47:27 <MarkFan8901> or at least something with a surprising amount of power
07:48:05 <MarkFan8901> actually having typed that out we dont remember what our point originally was
07:48:43 <MarkFan8901> we were trying to make it a caveat to the idea that slop inherently has zero/minimal value, but like
07:49:32 <MarkFan8901> we dont think it *could* be true that something has NO meaning or potential whatsoever relative to esolanging
07:49:52 <MarkFan8901> which makes it just a little harder to pinpoint topicality
07:50:32 <int-e> Isn't the lack of any substance part of the definition of "slop"?
07:51:09 <MarkFan8901> it's a good heuristic, but you can still get some great value out of slop if you pay enough attention
07:51:21 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192137&oldid=192136 * Dragoneater67 * (-51) /* Example */ remove redundant signal handlers
07:52:10 <MarkFan8901> https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=B2pI5bB-kKg the mv for this song is very much based on typical tiktok slop, but it is genuinely artistic
07:52:50 <MarkFan8901> it is relatively easy to 'recover' good ideas from slop when you're creative enough
07:54:01 <MarkFan8901> what we were gonna follow "they dont recognize that value" up with was that its because they dont actually care about the things they're making
07:54:05 <esolangs> [[VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192138&oldid=192116 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-110) since the BF interpreter AINT TC, theres currently no proof of TC'ness, so I removed the categories and such.
07:54:55 <MarkFan8901> actually it kinda feels like we're going in circles trying to elaborate on that point
07:55:17 <MarkFan8901> cuz it just naturally leads to 'it's low effort', which is what we're trying to define in the first place
08:00:45 <MarkFan8901> its definition is also typically a heuristic
08:01:14 <MarkFan8901> there are things you can define cleanly which also fit cleanly into it, the best example being content farms
08:01:47 <MarkFan8901> but elaborating further without any real analysis is typically fruitless
08:02:02 <MarkFan8901> and is we think why so many people throw their hands up and say its subjective at that point
08:02:34 <MarkFan8901> we're getting too waxy we need to calm down and focus on what we were talking about again
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08:12:57 <MarkFan8901> something we're also heavily considering is not including stuff that's just, not good
08:13:28 <MarkFan8901> like languages which are only uninteresting or don't have a lot going for them
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08:21:52 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192139&oldid=192137 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* Example */ fix bug
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08:37:41 <MarkFan8901> we feel like having a 'no wiki-gaming' rule might also help cut a lot of the off topic stuff
08:38:31 <MarkFan8901> cuz theres a part in the discussion on the wiki where someone mentions theyve seen accs who (maybe not directly, but essentially) state that as an explicit goal
08:39:37 <MarkFan8901> which can pretty elegantly explain why a lot of the nonsensical pages/edits on the wiki are like that
08:40:32 <MarkFan8901> another wiki we're very loosely a part of had an issue with someone coming along and wiki gaming the fuck out of it
08:41:06 <MarkFan8901> and a lot of the patterns of behavior they had + their effect on the wiki are comparable to that of what we see on esolangs rn
08:41:18 <MarkFan8901> though a big difference is it was one person on an already pretty dead wiki
08:41:40 <MarkFan8901> + they didnt make that many pages, their baloney was mainly confined to editing
08:42:01 <MarkFan8901> which is kinda the opposite of whats currently happening (correct us if we're wrong)
08:44:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192140&oldid=192133 * Miui * (+555)
08:45:50 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: but foxfire fixed it. now. :)
08:46:06 <int-e> I don't condone cussing out bots, fwiw.
08:46:10 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: but i did implement floor. though you mostly fnord on what i said
08:46:25 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: to be even shining a bit, but the final summary says 200 lines exactly. e-mailing now. that thing.
08:46:39 <MarkFan8901> man fnord was such a huge meme it left a dent in fungots brain
08:46:39 <fungot> MarkFan8901: if you understood what i meant
08:47:33 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: that's used for any data structure
08:47:39 <int-e> fungot Has a rate limit of sorts. Not sure about the details, it might just be counting up so the same user can't trigger it more than 3 times in a row or something.
08:47:39 <fungot> int-e: for example, with my little sister in 2005 or so
08:48:03 <MarkFan8901> apparently its from a dystopian sci fi novel
08:48:24 <Yayimheretoo> "fungot has a rate limit of sorts [...]" "for example, with my little sister [...]"
08:48:24 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: or rather an are my initials
08:48:28 <MarkFan8901> where people are trained for the word to be impercievable
08:48:44 <MarkFan8901> and where viewing it would cause a feeling of fear
08:49:15 <MarkFan8901> also the little sister comment by fungot is fucking hilarious
08:49:16 <fungot> MarkFan8901: even 19% in some experiments.
08:49:36 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo did you see some of the messages we got out of fungot a bit earlier
08:49:37 <fungot> MarkFan8901: nasa assigned three separate teams to investigate the embarrassing, us 125 million debacle and determine its cause. preliminary public statements faulted a fnord between the fnord barrier. most schemes off-handedly mention which srfis they support and don't really long for what it does
08:49:43 <int-e> "fnord" is what fungot (or rather, I think, the model generator behind it) uses as a replacement for very uncommon words.
08:50:10 <MarkFan8901> >linux would probably choke and gag and blow chunks long before reaching two million threads, whereas gambit would run just fnord has been accepted.
08:50:19 <Yayimheretoo> "nasa assigned three separate teams to investigate the embarrassing us"
08:50:52 <MarkFan8901> one of the most cogent sentences we've heard come out of fungot
08:50:52 <fungot> MarkFan8901: er the embed tag open through misc files.
08:51:01 <MarkFan8901> wonder what happens if fungot says its own name
08:51:01 <fungot> MarkFan8901: you wouldn't be directed to login page the wireless connection i'm using has unicode strings but they're completely disjoint from normal strings which makes them almost useless
08:51:18 <MarkFan8901> could there theoretically be an infinite loop of it talking to itself
08:51:32 <MarkFan8901> ya we felt like there would be a safe guard against that
08:51:46 <int-e> the IRC protocol doesn't echo your own channel messages back to you
08:51:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CDEV * New user account
08:51:56 <int-e> which is helpful for this particular scenario
08:52:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192141&oldid=192140 * Dragoneater67 * (-555) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192140|192140]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]]) revert vandalism
08:52:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192142&oldid=192141 * Miui * (+555) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192141|192141]] by [[Special:Contributions/Dragoneater67|Dragoneater67]] ([[User talk:Dragoneater67|talk]])
08:52:39 <int-e> Also the bots here are supposed to ignore the other bots. We have had bot loops... unless the bot owners are around they get old very rapidly.
08:54:16 <MarkFan8901> earlier we pinged ais about how their page had the name of a porn star slathered on it
08:54:31 <MarkFan8901> and that the description of them misled us to think they were some mexican activist
08:54:38 <MarkFan8901> but he said it could have been a name collision
08:54:46 <int-e> Or a channel op I guess. (So right now would be fine but I tend to wanter off for lengths of time, and I don't know who else would step in right now.)
08:55:01 <Yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: how what huh... where? I haven't seen that
08:55:08 <int-e> int-e: Nice typos, man.
08:55:35 <MarkFan8901> yayimheretoo: it's present in https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192140&oldid=192133
08:55:54 <MarkFan8901> The Thing Is there's also another link on that front page
08:56:06 <MarkFan8901> which leads to (presumably) their account on onlyfans
08:56:28 <MarkFan8901> you couldn't possibly mistake this for someone who isnt trying to redirect people to porn
08:56:53 <MarkFan8901> our good will with miui has been burnt out since
08:57:09 <MarkFan8901> we should probably go to the talk page about it
08:57:37 <Yayimheretoo> thats quite saad, their work seemed interesting
08:58:06 <MarkFan8901> all their actually interesting stuff smells ai generated
08:58:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192143&oldid=191981 * CDEV * (+200) /* Introductions */
08:58:36 <MarkFan8901> oh also not to mention their site is literally named porneia
08:58:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192144&oldid=192142 * Dragoneater67 * (-555) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192142|192142]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]]) revert vandalism again
08:58:59 <MarkFan8901> thankfully there doesnt seem to be any porn *on* the website itself
08:59:11 <MarkFan8901> which means you can go ahead and see how god damn atrocious it is
08:59:18 <Yayimheretoo> also, editing war type shit is brewing I think
08:59:28 <MarkFan8901> we're going to miuis talk page about their site
09:00:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192145&oldid=192144 * Miui * (+555) undo vandalism by dragoneater. please refer to [[WSAP#external_resources]] wiki-squatting/agenda-pushing.
09:00:59 <esolangs> [[User:CDEV]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192146 * CDEV * (+133) Created page with "Hello. I write shitty code and brag on [https://www.youtube.com/@cdev-eloper youtube]. You can message me on projects-cdev@proton.me"
09:02:10 <esolangs> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192147&oldid=191140 * Dragoneater67 * (+0) /* Truth machine */ fix
09:03:25 <int-e> MarkFan8901: Anyway, we're okay with starting bot loops, but make sure you have a plan for stopping it if it works. One that doesn't involve waiting until someone who can stop it wakes up :P
09:04:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192148&oldid=192145 * Blashyrkh * (-555) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192145|192145]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]]) Please stop vandalizing pages. If you need to publish your spam links, do it at your user page
09:05:34 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192149&oldid=192148 * Miui * (+555) undo vandalism by blashyrkh please refer to [[WSAP#external_resources]] wiki-squatting/agenda-pushing.
09:06:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192150&oldid=191930 * MarkFan8901 * (+614) /* dude. */ new section
09:06:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192151&oldid=192149 * Miui * (-555) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192149|192149]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]])
09:06:53 <MarkFan8901> yea this is also our patience burning up with them
09:08:03 <int-e> Poor ais523 will have to step in :-/
09:08:05 <esolangs> [[-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192152&oldid=192147 * Dragoneater67 * (+115) forgor to document this
09:08:07 <MarkFan8901> at least they give a good distillation of the behavior we *dont* want here
09:08:36 <MarkFan8901> its even shaking up some of the other ppl who are typically off topic
09:10:03 <MarkFan8901> we recognize the name but not enough to know what ur talking about
09:10:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192153&oldid=192150 * Miui * (-56) Nope.
09:10:51 <MarkFan8901> we'll be paying attention to wiki activity
09:11:10 <MarkFan8901> they literally got rid of the fucking message we put
09:11:22 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192154&oldid=192153 * Miui * (-1) Nope. Nope.
09:11:55 <MarkFan8901> that was literally an intrusive thought we had as part of our habit of escalating things in our head
09:12:40 <MarkFan8901> oh also they replaced it *with* the shitty link they tried pasting in voidptr
09:13:21 <int-e> this neocities space might even be worth an edit filter at this point, to thwart future replacement accounts
09:13:26 <MarkFan8901> 5 million percent confident thisll get ais to actually do something
09:13:53 <MarkFan8901> int-e: neocities is just a free site hoster
09:14:22 <Yayimheretoo> so there was this sandbox war thing, dunno much about it, a group of people wanted to make content on the public sandbox be permanently there so ais and them kinda just fought to each other. I got involved cuz I made an esolang called 0134, which kept getting some sort of vandalism(a used added commands without being allowed to, after being told to
09:14:22 <Yayimheretoo> not multiple times by me), and that person happened to be associated with these wars. For whatever I reason I kept an eye out for them to make sure they didn't fuck with me more, which lead me to see all the weird "propaganda" vandalism type things they were doing, and thinking why not, kinda thought back against it. its kinda blurry from there but
09:14:35 <int-e> MarkFan8901: I know. I wasn't going to name the full URL for the logs.
09:14:50 <esolangs> [[-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192155&oldid=192152 * Dragoneater67 * (+71) /* Overview */ apply a change
09:14:57 <Yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: Yes! for example I ave a blog on there lol
09:15:30 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192156&oldid=191616 * Dragoneater67 * (+223) /* Interpreter */
09:16:16 <MarkFan8901> we'll ping ais so he can get The Scoop on what's happened with us
09:16:48 <Yayimheretoo> not that the tommyeater(or awesome now that I think about it) thing is effectively handled
09:17:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192157&oldid=192156 * Blashyrkh * (+698) /* "After sending a signal the program waits for the signal handler to finish, but it keeps listening for new signals." */ new section
09:17:35 <MarkFan8901> ais523: miui tried plastering their shitty website on [[VoidPtr]], to which we opened a section on their talk page confronting them about it, to which they simply *edited out*
09:17:55 <MarkFan8901> they also edit warred over their website being on [[VoidPtr]]
09:18:21 <MarkFan8901> oh and their site also links their onlyfans too
09:19:51 <MarkFan8901> we dont think that could possibly make it any more obvious that the 'maya kendrick' in their site is referring to the porn star, and that theyre deliberately trying to trick people with the description of them on there
09:20:45 <MarkFan8901> oh and also that miui is being actively malicious
09:21:10 <inhahe> is it just me or is using ai to make programming languages to build clout on an esoteric language wiki an efficient way to advertise porn =p
09:21:16 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192158&oldid=192154 * Miui * (+0) I dont talk to sock puppets.
09:21:48 <inhahe> i must misunderstand what's going on, i don't follow these thintgs
09:22:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192159&oldid=192157 * Dragoneater67 * (+215) /* "After sending a signal the program waits for the signal handler to finish, but it keeps listening for new signals." */
09:22:04 <inhahe> oh, i meant inefficient
09:22:19 <int-e> inhahe: the notion that you could build clout on esolangs.org is funny
09:22:21 <esolangs> [[-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192160&oldid=192155 * Dragoneater67 * (-115)
09:23:18 <int-e> it's *very* early in the US
09:24:27 <MarkFan8901> >policing thought in the current times is significantly more problematic and harmful than acciddentally making a few bad esolangs. period. end of discussion.
09:24:30 <int-e> (I don't think I am, but I don't really track where people live. I'll remember if it comes up frequently enough.)
09:24:49 <Yayimheretoo> int-e: I remember ais talking about UK politics (as opposed to korvo on American politics) which seemed as though either person lived respective place but idk.
09:25:07 <MarkFan8901> first and foremost the phrase "policing thought" referring to what it does here is fucking ridiculous
09:26:33 <MarkFan8901> but also its a good piece of insight into how miui views what they do on this wiki
09:27:16 <MarkFan8901> cuz theyre (assumingly) referring to their own contributions
09:28:12 <MarkFan8901> calling it just thought is in line with our "containers for raw ideas" quip we have to describe the slop content we see
09:28:13 <esolangs> [[-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192161&oldid=192160 * Dragoneater67 * (-18) /* XKCD Random Number */ fix
09:28:37 <MarkFan8901> and it also lines up with miuis own languages and justifications
09:28:59 <MarkFan8901> like inflexion and the (at first) bizarre justification of [[Nah.]]s existence
09:29:21 <esolangs> [[-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192162&oldid=192161 * Dragoneater67 * (-98) /* Hello, world! */ fix
09:29:35 <MarkFan8901> for the latter we remember it was something like "well nah is han backwards, which is cjk for one, which i think makes it relevant"
09:31:02 <MarkFan8901> if you put aside the fact that that sounds like a line from a half life 3 confirmed joke, you can see how theyre justifying [[Nah.]]s existence merely by connecting it to a concept
09:33:17 <MarkFan8901> yknow something that should be discussed more about figuring out what's low-quality on this wiki?
09:33:40 <MarkFan8901> more specifically, what our threshhold on 'quality' should be
09:34:35 <esolangs> [[-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192163&oldid=192162 * Dragoneater67 * (+9) /* Truth machine */ fix
09:34:35 <MarkFan8901> cuz like if we're talking about the standards of the wiki and what they are, we're also talking about the standards of the wiki and what they are
09:35:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192164&oldid=192159 * Dragoneater67 * (+233) /* "After sending a signal the program waits for the signal handler to finish, but it keeps listening for new signals." */
09:36:33 <MarkFan8901> those hello, world/truth machine/xkcd random number/etc edits
09:36:42 <MarkFan8901> those just seem, WAY too easy to add onto any page
09:37:47 <MarkFan8901> which we feel like facilitates wiki gaming and low quality contributors
09:38:37 <Yayimheretoo> I think the Truth machine is useful for seeing certain capabilities of. language, but XKCD and other things which just, output a constant or whatever are too easy
09:39:05 <int-e> Those edits are fine, really; they add value. Think of it as adding examples to existing pages.
09:39:07 <MarkFan8901> we think hello world programs are good to have on a page, but we dont need like 2 or 3 other problems which serve a similar skill threshhold
09:39:39 <MarkFan8901> int-e: yea but theyre the *same* examples which can be made regardless of the language at hand
09:39:43 <Yayimheretoo> it kinda reminds me of merging *languages* which are basically the exact same, perhaps we do the same for programs which do such
09:39:46 <MarkFan8901> which kind of defeats the point of having language examples
09:40:07 <Yayimheretoo> MarkFan8901: Truth machine, again, demonstrates techniques and such used for programming in the language
09:40:08 <MarkFan8901> since it doesnt show anything unique or interesting about the language
09:40:19 <Yayimheretoo> like how to make loops and how to output and how to do conditional checks
09:40:33 <Yayimheretoo> especially if those things are not directly in the language
09:41:12 <int-e> I disagree. Each language page lives, to some extent, in isolation. The fact that other language pages also have hello world and truth machine programs doesn't really matter in that view.
09:41:35 <MarkFan8901> well it does matter in the view of wiki gaming
09:42:15 <MarkFan8901> tolerating some level of background noise in contributions was how we ended up here in the first place
09:42:54 <MarkFan8901> where *most* of the edits being done are stuff that was happening years ago, but wasnt really paid attention to properly
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09:44:32 <int-e> The thing is, if your attitude becomes to disallow everything that *could* enable trolling ("wiki gaming"), then you'll quickly end up with a wiki that disables edits completely.
09:44:59 <int-e> It's mostly a people problem, not a content-level problem.
09:45:34 <int-e> Limiting the scope can only do so much; trolls *thrive* on skirting the established boundaries.
09:46:10 <MarkFan8901> honestly we were kinda just venting some feelings when we made that original point about the truth machine and xkcd examples
09:47:03 <MarkFan8901> we still think the xkcd random number examples are annoying, but we have changed our mind otherwise
09:47:47 <MarkFan8901> also int-e there is a big difference between trolling and wiki gaming
09:48:18 <MarkFan8901> trolling is what miui is doing right now, deliberately being an asshole and trying to get away with it
09:48:46 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192165&oldid=192139 * Dragoneater67 * (+42) /* Example */
09:49:02 <MarkFan8901> wiki gaming is just when you try to treat wiki contributing as a game about how much of an impact you can have on a wiki
09:49:16 <MarkFan8901> most commonly, how many edits or pages you can make
09:49:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192166&oldid=192164 * Blashyrkh * (+472) /* "After sending a signal the program waits for the signal handler to finish, but it keeps listening for new signals." */
09:50:13 <int-e> MarkFan8901: wiki gaming becomes trolling when it's out of scope for the wiki (which it is, since it's not documenting esolangs or an adjacent topic but rather using the wiki as a playground)
09:50:43 <MarkFan8901> we might have different connotations attached to the word trolling
09:51:11 <MarkFan8901> its reserved for people who are actively trying to hurt others
09:51:46 <MarkFan8901> your definition is useful for what we're talking about, but we wouldnt call it trolling
09:52:03 <MarkFan8901> theres probably a good word for it but it's not coming to us
09:52:32 <int-e> I'm assuming that the participants know/have been told that this particular wiki is not a playground.
09:52:38 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192167&oldid=192064 * Cordership * (+71) /* Syntax */
09:52:39 <int-e> At which time it becomes intentional.
09:54:10 <MarkFan8901> maybe its cuz our prior experience with wikis is in a roblox fandom one, but
09:55:01 <MarkFan8901> we dont wanna bunch miui with people like none1
09:55:54 <MarkFan8901> there's obvious differences in intention (and actions) between them
09:56:09 <MarkFan8901> and we think it's clean to say that miui is trolling while both are wiki gaming
09:56:21 <int-e> Well, the consideration is still there, in that not all trolls are the same. Some can still be saved ;-)
09:57:46 <MarkFan8901> what we're saying is we dont like you calling both typical kid behavior and miuis behavior trolling
09:58:12 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192168&oldid=192167 * Cordership * (+296) /* Syntax */
09:58:23 <MarkFan8901> we dont think others need to be 'saved' from kid behavior
09:58:42 <MarkFan8901> theyll probably just grow up and out of the wiki in general with time
09:58:46 <int-e> No the kids are the ones who need to be saved of course.
09:59:06 <MarkFan8901> wait yea thats even more literal cuz of the shit thats on miuis site
09:59:48 <MarkFan8901> it still hasnt fully sunk in that theres a nonzero chance some kid could unwittingly look up porn because of them right now
09:59:55 <MarkFan8901> at least until ais wakes up and parses all of this
10:03:41 <MarkFan8901> https://porneia.neocities.org/wiki/Brainfuck at least this looks cool
10:04:01 <MarkFan8901> its just the esolangs page for bf but with some weird glitch thing on the left
10:04:26 <MarkFan8901> we checked the photo in a separate tab its not anything inappropriate thankfully
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10:07:10 <MarkFan8901> maybe we should talk about our own esolang to ease our nerves about all of this
10:07:41 <MarkFan8901> it's a microarchitecture based off gap buffers (called cut buffers in the lang)
10:08:33 <MarkFan8901> the way it works rn is that theres a 'main' cut which serves as global memory
10:09:27 <int-e> is this logically different from having two stacks (one for what comes before the gap and another one for what comes after)?
10:09:51 <MarkFan8901> our original implementation of cuts was actually with stacks
10:10:05 <MarkFan8901> but they both took up ~100 lines of code each
10:10:36 <int-e> Because that's a common thing to do; in particular it can simulate tapes (if you ignore stuff details like the gap size being bounded)
10:10:37 <MarkFan8901> and we rewrote it into a single thing which also turned out to be 100 loc
10:11:12 <MarkFan8901> the intent is that it can be used to easily simulate a rewriting system
10:11:31 <MarkFan8901> for the purpose of language compilation/interpretation
10:12:42 <MarkFan8901> building such a system up from a few fundamental instructions (the microarchitecture) would also allow us to write equally fundamental things which could make it MUCH more powerful to that end
10:13:03 <MarkFan8901> thats actually one of the big goals of the project, to make language implementation piss easy
10:14:02 <MarkFan8901> there's a cut which is global memory, and the memory is initialized by default with the cut that has the current code, the memory itself, a cut which contains each argument in the form of a cut, and 0
10:14:55 <MarkFan8901> all the instructions are just very basic things you can do with cuts
10:15:11 <MarkFan8901> moving their cursor, copying from one to another, typing a certain number, etc
10:16:09 <MarkFan8901> firstly, the first argument of each instruction corresponds to a cut in memory
10:17:01 <MarkFan8901> to be clearer, if you have something like `inst @1`, `@1` refers to whatever cut is stored in the first element of memory
10:18:20 <MarkFan8901> so i.e. `new @1` would assign the current cell in [the cut stored in cell 1 of memory] to a newly-allocated cut
10:19:08 <MarkFan8901> `new @0` would assign it to [the cut stored in cell 0 of memory], by default the code being ran
10:19:12 <HackEso> new? No such file or directory
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10:19:42 <int-e> Hmm, so you get a tree.
10:19:57 <MarkFan8901> secondly, (nearly) all arguments in an instruction are literals
10:20:10 <MarkFan8901> that's fine for something like `move`, which moves the cursor in a cut by a given amount
10:21:11 <MarkFan8901> our idea with this was to make it so that you'd have to make a new cut, type the `add` instruction and the values you wanna add into it, then run it
10:22:02 <MarkFan8901> oh right theres also the `run` instruction, which changes what code is currently running to the given cut
10:22:50 <MarkFan8901> we are currently trying to come up with a system to make something like that cleanly and extensibly
10:22:56 <MarkFan8901> in other words, we are trying to implement functions
10:24:04 <MarkFan8901> also int-e trees are also very important in ralsei
10:24:18 <MarkFan8901> cuz asts can be modeled by cuts very easily in that way
10:25:11 <MarkFan8901> where you just store the address of cuts in other cuts to represent branches of parent nodes
10:25:43 <MarkFan8901> though we do have concerns about how youd access the contents of said trees
10:26:00 <MarkFan8901> cuz again the core instructions can only index stuff from global memory
10:26:53 <MarkFan8901> so we feel like you'd have to 'unfold' the tree by repeatedly taking the pointers out and putting them in main memory until you get to the one you wanna index
10:28:04 <MarkFan8901> fsr we had the idea that there'd be a linear increase in needed memory relative to the depth of the search
10:28:36 <MarkFan8901> but it would actually only be constant if you just took the last one off before adding the new one
10:30:09 <MarkFan8901> we're half tempted to publish the source code we have rn to get help with this
10:30:34 <MarkFan8901> but we dont wanna do that until we get it to a state we're happy wiith
10:32:21 <MarkFan8901> oh something about the 'make a new cut and run that' approach to functions that we really like
10:32:52 <MarkFan8901> theoretically you wouldnt even need a return stack to make nested functions calls successfully
10:33:38 <MarkFan8901> cuz you can just plop the code that switches to the previous running cut directly into it
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11:25:00 <esolangs> [[Brainball]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192169&oldid=173706 * FordsTheodore * (+36)
11:25:15 <esolangs> [[User:FordsTheodore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192170&oldid=192044 * FordsTheodore * (-16)
11:49:43 <esolangs> [[BrainASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192171&oldid=189462 * Mishyakovskiy * (+110)
11:51:26 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192172&oldid=192168 * Cordership * (+455)
11:52:00 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192173&oldid=192172 * Cordership * (+33) /* Recaman sequence */
11:53:06 <esolangs> [[Sgn Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192174&oldid=188393 * Cordership * (+0) /* Simpl */
11:53:50 <esolangs> [[Sgn Machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192175&oldid=192174 * Cordership * (+20) /* Simpl */
11:55:15 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192176&oldid=192173 * Cordership * (+1) /* Categories */
12:12:12 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192177&oldid=192105 * Miui * (-4909) beginning to sketch lang
12:18:07 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietoncracklang/Pgmpietoncracklang++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192178&oldid=192075 * Miui * (-14) developing an S.O.P. for website interaction/esolang development excuse me
12:19:18 <esolangs> [[Pgmpietonracklang/Pgmpietonracklang+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192179&oldid=192120 * Miui * (+37) the "advanced" example-based joke programming language now lives off site
12:19:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192180&oldid=192107 * None1 * (+942) /* BF Joust strategies */ My opinion
12:20:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192181&oldid=192166 * Blashyrkh * (+360) /* Kolakoski sequence */ new section
12:22:17 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192182&oldid=191603 * Blashyrkh * (+134) +golfing
12:39:12 <esolangs> [[ChooseMatrix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192183 * None1 * (+533) Created page with "ChooseMatrix is an [[OISC]] invented by [[User:None1]] which uses matrices to operate on a vector. ==Data== The only data is a 0-indexed vector ''a'', with ''n'' dimensions, where ''n'' is automatically detected from the matrices. Initially, a<sub>1</sub> is 1, the re
12:44:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192184&oldid=192025 * None1 * (+19) /* C */
12:45:45 <esolangs> [[ChooseMatrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192185&oldid=192183 * None1 * (+77) /* Command */
12:45:58 <esolangs> [[ChooseMatrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192186&oldid=192185 * None1 * (+10)
12:46:15 <esolangs> [[ChooseMatrix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192187&oldid=192186 * None1 * (+5) /* Data */
12:46:53 <esolangs> [[User:None1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192188&oldid=191504 * None1 * (+62) /* My Esolangs */
12:47:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192189&oldid=192151 * Basilisk * (+387) Unbounded memory
12:48:26 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192190&oldid=192189 * Basilisk * (+2) format
12:54:28 <esolangs> [[Simpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192191&oldid=192176 * Cordership * (+157) /* Module 3: Mathplot */
13:02:04 <inhahe> maybe you sohuld make a little syntax for accessing branches in the cut tree
13:04:17 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192192&oldid=192177 * Miui * (+22960) Draft up the most concise possible introduction and definite basis for the languag.
13:06:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:VoidPtr]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192193&oldid=192190 * Basilisk * (+359) Alright, I'll prove it.
13:16:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192194&oldid=192181 * Blashyrkh * (-3) /* Kolakoski sequence */ 3 bytes shorter
13:18:03 <esolangs> [[User:Blashyrkh]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192195&oldid=192182 * Blashyrkh * (+17) Shorter [[Kolakoski sequence]] in [[-]] (142 > 139)
13:19:53 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192196&oldid=192192 * Miui * (+197) Add Category: Output only, External resources
13:20:25 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192197&oldid=192196 * Miui * (+1) fix category spelling
13:32:33 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192198&oldid=192197 * Miui * (+431) /* Instruction pointer */ describe "below stack section" and pointers for program execution
13:33:18 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192199&oldid=192198 * Miui * (+2) /* Male chanter */ fix bss
13:34:38 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192200&oldid=192199 * Miui * (+4) further debugging of the bss ("below stack section")
13:35:21 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192201&oldid=192200 * Miui * (-1) /* Female chanter */ fix errors
13:46:27 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192202&oldid=192201 * Miui * (+2) Make the female chanter section subordinate to the male chanter section
13:48:58 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192203&oldid=192202 * Miui * (+21) /* Female chanter */ further debugging
13:55:14 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192204&oldid=191373 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+14) /* 2026 */
14:02:21 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192205&oldid=191735 * Cordership * (+181) /* Conditional statement */
14:03:25 <esolangs> [[User:ChuckEsoteric08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192206&oldid=192204 * ChuckEsoteric08 * (+23) /* 2026 */
14:03:43 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192207&oldid=192205 * Cordership * (+51) /* Conditional statement */
14:10:27 <esolangs> [[-/Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192208&oldid=192165 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+182) the solution is to wait with noops
14:11:22 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192209&oldid=192207 * Cordership * (+22) /* Chapter 2: Operators */
14:12:21 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192210&oldid=192209 * Cordership * (+25) /* Categories and References */
14:14:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192211&oldid=191916 * Cordership * (+77) /* Python-based */ new section
14:15:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192212&oldid=192211 * Cordership * (+130) /* Python-based */
14:19:37 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192213&oldid=192203 * Miui * (-22074) /* Instruction pointer */ make flag smaller
14:20:57 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192214&oldid=192213 * Miui * (+17) /* Instruction pointer */ center the flag
14:28:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fictology * New user account
14:28:10 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192215&oldid=192214 * Miui * (+266) link to resources about murray polygons
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14:46:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192216&oldid=192143 * Fictology * (+236) /* Introductions */
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14:58:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SE * New user account
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15:07:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192217&oldid=192216 * SE * (+150)
15:10:51 <esolangs> [[Prime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192218 * Fictology * (+3390) Created page with "Prime Fictology [https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E7%AE%97%E6%9C%AF%E5%9F%BA%E6%9C%AC%E5%AE%9A%E7%90%86/10920095 ] lambda..."
15:12:32 <esolangs> [[Prime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192219&oldid=192218 * Fictology * (+154) /* Commad Table */
15:15:44 <esolangs> [[Prime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192220&oldid=192219 * Fictology * (+53) /* Example */
15:15:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Timeroot * New user account
15:17:13 <esolangs> [[Prime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192221&oldid=192220 * Fictology * (-71) /* Prime Language Compiler */
15:17:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192222&oldid=192217 * Timeroot * (+249) introducing myself!
15:17:50 <esolangs> [[Prime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192223&oldid=192221 * Fictology * (+73) /* Example */
15:18:02 <esolangs> [[Prime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192224&oldid=192223 * Fictology * (+0) /* Example */
15:19:28 <esolangs> [[Prime]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192225&oldid=192224 * Fictology * (+1) /* Commad Table */
15:20:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192226&oldid=192212 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+48) /* Python-based */ unsigned
15:27:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Prime]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192227 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+225) Created page with "pages on this wiki should be written in english --~~~~"
15:33:34 <esolangs> [[FFS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192228&oldid=165158 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+59) categorize some more
15:34:04 <esolangs> [[FFS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192229&oldid=192228 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+24) cell-based
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15:44:05 <esolangs> [[Hypercube]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192230 * Timeroot * (+8872) Defining the Hypercube esolang
15:44:07 <esolangs> [[Arra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192231&oldid=171684 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+68) unknown computational class & unimplemented
15:56:17 <esolangs> [[THE ROARING KNIGHT CHALLENGES YOU TO A DUEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192232&oldid=164279 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+110) categorization
16:04:44 <esolangs> [[Two-instruction madness!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192233&oldid=122636 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-1) /* Interpreters */ if you want a code block, either use pre or indent by one space
16:23:31 <b_jonas> non-esoteric programming question that I think you might be able to answer. sometimes when people compile a program for a unix-like system, they want to install it to a place that's at a different pathname at install time than it will be at runtime. so you have to tell both of these to the make/configure scripts. can you point me to a document that describes the conventions that make this easy if I'm
16:23:37 <b_jonas> developing a program, like what to name the pathname variables to make it easy for those people (eg. those that make distro packages or cross-compile) to understand? also pathnames for where to find dependency libraries at compile time vs runtime?
17:22:54 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192234&oldid=191979 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+331) /* 2026-present - aeopgj30jgewjgoejg90eGko3g */
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17:27:57 <esolangs> [[Tonk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192235&oldid=191689 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+334) /* Developer tanks */
17:46:07 <zzo38> Run time configuration files is another thing that you might want to know the path name (although files in the home directory, or specified by environment variables or command-line arguments, might override that if they are available)
18:16:54 <b_jonas> getauxval(AT_SECURE) should have been defined with its value backwards, so that it gives nonzero for normal programs and zero for setid programs, because getauxval fails to zero if you pass an unknown argument to it.
18:19:01 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192236&oldid=192234 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+106)
18:36:43 <somefan> thunder is coming, which is nice. i like the sound of rain
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18:47:10 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-blocked-link]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192237 * Ais523 * (+273) explanation for an edit that was prevented due to containing a link that has been spammed
18:50:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Zymbol-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192238&oldid=182535 * Ais523 * (-166) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/182506|182506]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]]) links to site that has been spammed recently, links to that site are no longer allowed
18:50:42 <ais523> hmm, there are more links to this site than I expected
18:50:56 <ais523> maybe I should only block the homepage
18:51:03 <ais523> but edit-warring a spam link onto a page is not acceptable behavior
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18:54:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[.:]]": only description about the language is "constant language thats nullary in base 13. It is not a joke.", and the page was primarily being used as a link repository rather than a description of the language
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18:55:31 <MarkFan8901> ais523: could you also revert miuis talk page to the edit that we made to it
18:55:41 <MarkFan8901> cuz they just immediately removed what we said on there
18:56:12 <ais523> MarkFan8901: actually I'd prefer to not have the link there
18:56:30 <ais523> a comment saying "please don't link to this page" is somewhat self-undermining if it contains a link to the page
18:56:47 <MarkFan8901> would it be okay if we added it back but got rid of the link
18:58:12 <ais523> anyway, the website in question is being used to host things like interpreters, but also used to host exact copies of things which might potentially be copyright-infringing but I don't have enough information
18:58:18 <ais523> so I'm not sure what to do about existing links
18:58:50 <ais523> I did configure the spam filter to block links to Miui's website being newly added (because there was evidence that Miui was trying to spam it)
18:59:11 <MarkFan8901> if this was some corpo site instead the grounds to ban it for that reason would be much more obvious
19:00:34 <ais523> oh, repeated offtopic spam (with no ontopic edits) is a reason to block the site, block the account, and revert everything the account ever did – it was many years ago now, but esolangs.org used to get very high quantities of spambots
19:00:47 <ais523> that used to be pretty much all the admin work I did, blocking spambots and deleting the spam
19:01:00 <ais523> then we added the Introduce yourself page, and none of the existing spambot frameworks could figure out how to get past it
19:01:07 <b_jonas> yeah, the decisions are getting harder now
19:01:50 <ais523> I can probably delete over a thousand pages in an hour if the decisions are easy enough and the network isn't being slow
19:02:16 <ais523> actual speed of admin actions is not the problem, it's working out when to perform them and what to perform
19:02:46 <ais523> on misbehaving users, my normal strategy is to gradually remove their ability to use site features that they've been abusing, e.g. if someone vandalises other people's user talk pages, you remove their ability to edit other people's user talk pages
19:03:15 <ais523> eventually this reaches an equilibrium where they give up misusing things, and either use things correctly or leave the site
19:04:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192239&oldid=192158 * MarkFan8901 * (+37)
19:06:51 <MarkFan8901> theyre on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Miui/Sandbox
19:07:07 <MarkFan8901> and it has a section that says >The inherent sex of the chanter must be decided given the options male or female.
19:08:43 <MarkFan8901> we dont think thats grounds for anything but its way nastier cuz of miuis other actions
19:08:45 <ais523> this appears to refer to some variable inside an esolang?
19:11:09 <MarkFan8901> also for some reason there's a flag on there which is rendered by manually drawing a bunch of 1px(?) wide boxes in css
19:11:22 <MarkFan8901> its not that egregious now but it was a few edits ago
19:12:10 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Constant language directory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192240&oldid=191597 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+380) /* QuineAvoiding() */ not sure but miui has this listed under constant languages so i'm adding it
19:12:23 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192241&oldid=192236 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-2564)
19:13:46 <zzo38> If you are using 1px wide boxes in CSS to render a very large picture flag then it might be considered too excessive (and may result too big file and too much time and/or memory to render on some computers)
19:14:13 <MarkFan8901> it was genuinely excessive before but now its pretty small
19:14:27 <MarkFan8901> but also like there's just a picture of the flag on the wikipedia page
19:17:22 <b_jonas> MarkFan8901: I think you can't embed pictures hosted elsewhere into a mediawiki page, and that's as it should be on most webpages with user-submitted content from multiple users together, though sadly many forums don't behave that way.
19:18:42 <esolangs> [[TryHard]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192242&oldid=173672 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+110) categorization
19:19:00 <MarkFan8901> we still cant imagine its that hard to just reupload the image tho
19:19:06 <b_jonas> on some forums I even block external images (with some exceptions) on the browser-side
19:20:00 <ais523> image uploads should be pretty rare here
19:20:23 <ais523> I have been considering deleting most of Miui's on the "defining offtopic content to be part of an esolang doens't make it ontopic" rule
19:20:31 <ais523> haven't got around to it yet
19:20:50 <ais523> but at least that rule seems fairly uncontroversial, I should probably pur it on the policy page
19:21:15 <esolangs> [[Raylang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192243&oldid=112014 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+243) categorization, also does this count as pseudonatural or thematic?
19:21:19 <MarkFan8901> "offtopic things dont make things ontopic" seems like a pretty obvious rule
19:21:35 <b_jonas> I've put some content on the wiki that is not clearly on-topic, but I hope I'm doing it in a less annoying way
19:24:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Policy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192244&oldid=179152 * Ais523 * (+275) add/explain the rule about not being able to create an esolang to make offtopic content ontopic; this was mentioned in the 2026 topicality proposal and seems uncontroversial
19:24:34 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a lot of grey area
19:24:37 <MarkFan8901> wait we misread "uncontroversial" as "unconventional"
19:24:57 <b_jonas> sure, that's what I'm mostly relying on
19:24:59 <esolangs> [[Karvity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192245&oldid=167770 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+188) categorization
19:25:19 <MarkFan8901> maybe self deprecation also has something to do with it?
19:25:22 <b_jonas> turns out, computation is everywhere if you look deeply
19:25:48 <MarkFan8901> like we went through some of raiseafloppafans pages and kept seeing them self deprecating everything they made
19:26:22 <MarkFan8901> maybe it was cuz we only went through like a small amount of your pages
19:27:07 <MarkFan8901> but its a pattern we've seen around low effort languages in general
19:28:08 <esolangs> [[Ooord]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192246&oldid=175754 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+57) categorization
19:28:34 <MarkFan8901> reminds us of how r/programminghorrors has a bunch of low-quality submissions since people just started submitting their own code and talking about how bad it was
19:31:12 <esolangs> [[SSEG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192247&oldid=177526 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+129) categorization
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19:32:29 <esolangs> [[Cookie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192248&oldid=163155 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+135) categorization
19:33:40 <esolangs> [[Bitsflit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192249&oldid=159873 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+110) categorization
19:36:00 <esolangs> [[Broken Gdy Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192250&oldid=109236 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+119) computational class + bf derivative cats
19:36:51 <esolangs> [[Gdy Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192251&oldid=109243 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+114) categorization
19:47:51 <esolangs> [[Gdy Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192252&oldid=192251 * Blashyrkh * (-10) Since it lacks loops it can't be TC. It's total
19:49:44 <ais523> b_jonas: fwiw I think "thing is usable for computation but wasn't designed as a programming language" is ontopic: it's usable as a programming language and yet wasn't intended as a practical programming language, that's close to a definition of an esolang
19:50:33 <ais523> although I'm not sure that making pages specifically about, say, M:tG or Netrunner would make sense (rather, it makes more sense to make pages about the languages that were used to prove them TC)
19:51:03 <b_jonas> ais523: how about esoteric things that you can do in an existing non-esoteric programming language? yeah, I shouldn't even ask, we have Subtyping engine and JSFuck
19:51:44 <ais523> I guess a good dividing line is: The Subtyping Machine doesn't explain the semantics of Java at all, just exploits part of its type system
19:52:01 <ais523> and likewise an article on JSFuck wouldn't contain enough information to allow you to learn how to program in JavaScript
19:52:14 <b_jonas> well sometimes they aren't TC but just allow computations in a large memory size whose size is determined by the program
19:52:18 <ais523> so the focus is on the relevant part
19:52:29 <ais523> (and TC isn't really the boundary, but usability for computation)
19:54:24 <b_jonas> sure, but occasionally the language that we use is boring
19:54:50 <b_jonas> like in OpenTTD where it's just some boolean gates on registers
19:55:16 <b_jonas> it's how you embed it into an OpenTTD save that's interesting
19:55:55 <b_jonas> and for JSFuck and Subtyping Machine it's interesting how you embed them into Javascript and Java, even if the simulated language can be interesting alone
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19:56:44 <ais523> oh yes, the embedding is the interesting part of the page about the embedded language
19:57:05 <ais523> but, we still write the page from the point of view of the embedded language, even if the embedding is the only interesting part
19:59:21 <b_jonas> Tom7's ABC might be an even better example, the language that it compiles from isn't interesting in any esoteric way, but how it can be simulated is
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20:02:01 <ais523> that said, the languages being embedded often are interesting
20:02:28 <ais523> Flooding Waterfall Model was nontrivial to even prove TC, and The Subtyping Machine is quite different from most esolangs we see posted
20:03:04 <ais523> even the language embedded into Netrunner, despite essentially being a two-counter machine, has a lot of weirdness to it
20:03:12 <b_jonas> yeah. and StackFlow is interesting in its own right even after we failed to fix the M:tG construction
20:03:57 <b_jonas> well even a fully general two-counter Minsky machine with arbitrary flow control is esoteric enough
20:04:12 <b_jonas> very much not something you want to use for production programming
20:04:29 <b_jonas> and it's not trivial why it's TC
20:05:11 <b_jonas> and you're right about Flooding Waterfall Model
20:06:23 <zzo38> One of my user subpages has a section about Magic: the Gathering, with only a very brief description but does link to the Flooding Waterfall Model.
20:07:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: StackFlow would be interesting to embed because it'd be so efficient, compared to most of the constructions that we could do in M:tG
20:08:10 <b_jonas> I don't like exponential slowdowns
20:12:47 <b_jonas> anyway, https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:B_jonas/Polyminoes is very likely off-topic, and https://esolangs.org/wiki/Font may be off-topic
20:18:32 <b_jonas> does this mean that if we have two independent very different ways to prove that something like M:tG is usable for computation then we should document those in two different pages of the esowiki?
20:19:13 <b_jonas> like we could have one page about Factorio combinators and one page on how to simulate boolean circuits with just Factorio belt transport?
20:19:58 <ais523> putting the different ways in the same article doesn't really make sense
20:20:19 <ais523> (this is already true for M:tG, given the extremely complicated two-state Turing machine that works by giving everything phasing)
20:22:16 <b_jonas> yeah, the question then is what happens when we have multiple independent ways to prove that an esolang is Turing-complete
20:25:01 <ais523> this also happens quite a lot
20:25:13 <ais523> most articles in that situation discuss one in detail and just mention the others
20:26:57 <b_jonas> yes, in particular I have two ways to embed two-stack machines into Consumer Society, but the language is more powerful than even a three-stack (or four-stack) machine because it can simulate efficient random access read-writable memory
20:27:24 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure if those are truly independent, only that both ways are interesting and worth to know about
20:27:35 <ais523> ah, more complexity-powerful rather than more computationally-powerful
20:27:44 <ais523> this is a direction I was thinking about with, e.g., Esimpl
20:29:47 <ais523> I think that, in an n-stack machine, every increment of n adds more complexity-power (although I'm not totally sure)
20:31:29 <b_jonas> yes, I think that's true, but the third stack matters much more in practice than any additional ones
20:33:31 <b_jonas> and in Consumer Society, the two-stack simulation is easier to directly prove than more stacks, like you get two stacks naturally, the same two stacks as in Underload and many other similar languages with an instruction stack and one data stack
20:40:24 <int-e> Meh... the argument order of _mm_andnot_ps is a bit surprising.
20:43:35 <b_jonas> int-e: that's an old instruction from before AVX, so it matters which operand is in-out
20:57:28 <ais523> int-e: it's surprising in the asm, too
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21:13:25 <MarkFan8901> ais523: on the point about mainstream languages, we already have pages about them
21:13:31 <MarkFan8901> and their rule is that they can only cover esoteric things you can do in them
21:13:40 <MarkFan8901> which seems like a pretty good policy to have
21:13:57 <MarkFan8901> plus it also sets a good bar for future pages about mainstream langs
21:13:59 <ais523> MarkFan8901: I know, I am neutral on this, but I think there's a consensus in favor
21:14:22 <MarkFan8901> ok we're gonna read the rest of the convo now
21:17:44 <esolangs> [[Broken Gdy Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192253&oldid=192250 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-10) since Gdy Brainfuck is total then this is total as well
21:17:54 <int-e> ais523: Yeah. It really only makes sense with the in place modification in mind.
21:26:16 <zzo38> I think that multiple ways of Magic: the Gathering being Turing complete can be mentioned in one page, although most descriptions might be separate pages anyways (especially if the descriptions are long enough for this, and/or include things other than Magic: the Gathering as well so they are not primarily about Magic: the Gathering). For example, they could be listed in http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/Game_rules#Magic:_the_Gatheri
21:26:51 <zzo38> (This is a specific example; other similar things that do not involve Magic: the Gathering, might similarly be applicable and/or not applicable)
21:32:53 <MarkFan8901> would having them be in subpages on a single mtg page work?
21:34:57 <zzo38> Since some of them have their own standalone significance in addition to the significance with Magic: the Gathering (this is the case for Flooding Waterfall Model, which has its own semantics but then also the implementation in Magic: the Gathering), I would think that doing subpages like you describe probably won't do (although a category might do, but that will need more discussion to see if it will do or not)
21:39:07 <b_jonas> Magic: the Gathering is easy enough to search that I don't think it's worth a category
21:39:16 <b_jonas> and yes, that applies to ICFP contest too
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21:42:55 <b_jonas> I could see a point that not all esoteric things that you can do in production programming languages are on topic for the wiki, only some of them
21:43:16 <b_jonas> but it's not easy to define which ones
21:44:13 <MarkFan8901> we'd think the rules there could probably just be the same as whatever topicality rules we come up with
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21:48:40 <int-e> When restricted to avx2, is there a better way to expand bits to bytes than https://paste.debian.net/hidden/cd839933 ? (mask registers are avx512 only, so can't be used)
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21:49:35 <int-e> (the final mask is negated; that doesn't matter to me)
21:54:03 <ais523> lists normally work better than categories for most things, categories are more for things that are so widely applicable that you would want to check for them whenever you create a new page
21:54:39 <ais523> int-e: that link is broken for me
21:55:22 <int-e> I see. I need to stop using that pastebin. It keeps deleting some things very quickly.
21:57:25 <int-e> maybe this one? https://bpa.st/W4MGG
22:01:03 <ais523> int-e: that may be more efficient than what I was thinking of
22:02:24 <ais523> which was to broadcast each single byte to 8, shift each byte by a varying amount so that the bit that controlled the byte you want ended up at the top of the byte, then using any of the many methods that expand the bit at the top of the word to cover the whole byte
22:02:36 <ais523> (the problem being that there isn't a "shift bytes", only a "shift words"
22:03:44 <ais523> fwiw, I think the most efficient way to use long vector constants is to store them in a static const somewhere and then just read them from memory when you need them
22:07:00 <int-e> ais523: I trust the compiler to figure that out. It did that for the first two constants; it used a vpxor for the 0 one
22:07:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192254&oldid=192226 * Ais523 * (+270) /* Python-based */ I don't think this would make for a good category
22:07:42 <ais523> ah, I'm used to writing these things in asm rather than with intrinsics
22:07:53 <ais523> so I'm never quite sure to what extent the compiler optimizes intrinsics
22:11:41 <int-e> oh no... I have an all-one constant as well, and for that one it does... vpcmpeqd y,y,y; vpabsb y,y
22:12:11 <int-e> (once, outside of the one hot loop that uses it, so it doesn't really matter)
22:16:37 <int-e> oh there's a slight difference between gcc and clang there; clang uses vpbroadcastq with a memory operand for the second constant
22:23:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:WSAP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192255 * Ais523 * (+1290) explaining a deletion
22:23:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[WSAP]]": this claims the existence of something which may or may not be an esolang, but doesn't describe it at all, and what content the article does contain is self-contradictory; see talk
22:24:17 <ais523> int-e: abs (x==x) might even be the most efficient way to create an all-1s constant
22:31:59 <int-e> ais523: possibly. it was quite unexpected though
22:33:28 <int-e> Huh, clang figured out that it can compare the result of the `and` with the mask used to complement the result.
22:33:40 <int-e> To avoid the vpandn?
22:34:44 <int-e> GCC's code is faster though. Still, I had not considered that option :)
22:34:52 <b_jonas> int-e: I think there is something better but I'm not quite sure
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22:43:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192256&oldid=192239 * Miui * (+711)
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22:44:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192257&oldid=192256 * Miui * (-1) moving english discussion to the english discussion section
22:46:04 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192258&oldid=192127 * Miui * (+97) /* miscellany */ Wiki squatting and Agenda pushing article moved to miscellany!
22:49:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192259&oldid=192257 * Miui * (+376) /* dude. */
22:53:05 <aadenboy> "whatever smear campaign this is" lmao
22:54:43 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192260&oldid=192259 * Miui * (+219) /* dude. */
23:06:09 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192261&oldid=192258 * Miui * (+141) Added dafne archive and begin archive section because of an ongoing targeted attempt to find a way to ban my account
23:09:06 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I retract that, the reasons why I'd thought there's something better don't work
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23:22:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dhaugh * New user account
23:22:33 <int-e> b_jonas: No worries. The main reason why I asked is that the opposite direction exists: https://www.felixcloutier.com/x86/pmovmskb And it's fairly easy to miss an instruction.
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23:23:42 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192262&oldid=192261 * Miui * (+65) /* Archiving efforts */ archived the thought police
23:23:47 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192263&oldid=192222 * Dhaugh * (+55) /* Introductions */
23:24:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192264&oldid=192263 * Dhaugh * (+82) /* Introductions */
23:29:46 -!- joast has joined.
23:30:16 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192265&oldid=192262 * Miui * (+78) /* Archiving efforts */ archived pgmpietoncracklang!
23:37:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192266&oldid=192260 * Ais523 * (+1001) /* dude. */ link evidence of spamming
23:41:26 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192267&oldid=192266 * MarkFan8901 * (+102) msg + some formatting
23:41:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192268&oldid=192267 * MarkFan8901 * (+91)
23:42:41 <MarkFan8901> we find the phrase "acciddentally making a few bad esolangs" interesting
23:42:48 <MarkFan8901> like how do you "accidentally" make an esolang
23:43:46 <inhahe> accidentally bad, i assume
23:44:54 <ais523> b_jonas: re: specifying paths for install conventions: see sections 16.4 and 16.5 here: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/doc/make-doc/make.html/Makefile-Conventions.html#DESTDIR
23:44:57 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192269&oldid=192268 * MarkFan8901 * (+346)
23:48:08 <ais523> I suspect it's hard to make good esolangs at a high rate
23:49:22 <MarkFan8901> we've been working on ralsei for two years by this point
23:49:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192270&oldid=192269 * Miui * (-3440)
23:49:27 <ais523> I've only made one esolang so far this year, for example (which is mostly there as a partial research result – I'm interested in whether consistent-Collatz is TC on this integers, this language is TC consistent-Collatz but in a different ring)
23:49:53 <MarkFan8901> miui back at it with just deleting the whole section and pretending thatll make the problem go away
23:50:00 <ais523> err. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fading_Shout
23:50:04 <ais523> it's in the page history
23:50:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:The best esolang ever]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192271&oldid=95435 * Marcus 2n2 * (+258) /* you are going to end esolangs */
23:50:21 <ais523> part of the reason I gave the Special:Diff links is that many people don't realise that everything they do on a wiki is recorded
23:50:39 <ais523> so showing a history link can serve as a reminder of that
23:55:20 <ais523> (Miui did stop the edit war one edit before the "automatic" (i.e. as soon as an admin notices) temporary block for edit warring, which happens after four edits that revert/undo someone else's edit: the original posting of the link doesn't count because it didn't undo anything)
23:56:12 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192272&oldid=192265 * Miui * (+54) /* Archiving efforts */ archived ''''''
23:57:15 <esolangs> [[Kolakoski sequence]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192273&oldid=190496 * Blashyrkh * (+214) [[-]] kolakoski sequence impl.
23:59:54 <MarkFan8901> the language for the implementation of that sequence is actually really interesting