00:00:12 <MarkFan8901> its premise is two turing-incomplete systems which, by conjunction, become turing complete
00:00:31 <MarkFan8901> this actually reminds us of an idea we had about a solution to [[Feather]]
00:01:36 <MarkFan8901> cuz from what we read, the problem with the initial idea was with trying to edit how the vm works in a way where the current execution switches to as if the change that was made was always there
00:01:54 <ais523> you might be interested in https://esolangs.org/wiki/Along_and_Across
00:02:44 <esolangs> [[Along and across]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192274 * Ais523 * (+30) caps redirect, so that searches will correctly find a language with a mixed-case name
00:04:07 <MarkFan8901> those conjectures are such a good nerdsnipe
00:05:22 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:05:50 <MarkFan8901> MarkFan8901: you cant do that and gurantee itll come back to the state it was in cuz the language inside is turing complete
00:05:56 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined.
00:06:13 <MarkFan8901> ...*unless* the language *inside* the vm wasn't turing complete
00:06:38 <MarkFan8901> but the conjunction of that language and the ability to self modify its vm *was*
00:07:06 <MarkFan8901> as in like, the necessary control flow for turing completeness was possible *only* through self modification
00:08:13 <MarkFan8901> which makes other things about the language start making sense
00:08:49 <MarkFan8901> though we're still not sure if 'true' bootstrapping is possible as we understood it from the logs
00:09:40 <MarkFan8901> unless you were to somehow compile a feather interpreter written in feather and `fork()`ed to it all *within* feather itself
00:10:45 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192275&oldid=192272 * Miui * (+66) /* Archiving efforts */
00:10:52 <MarkFan8901> to word it differently, you arent really able to bootstrap it without *some* start because at the end of the day you still need to actually run it on your computer
00:11:22 <MarkFan8901> but yea with those caveats we think [[Feather]] is completely possible
00:11:37 <MarkFan8901> going back through our ideas about it actually made us realize the similarities between it and ralsei
00:12:15 <MarkFan8901> cuz ralsei also relies completely on self modification for the most basic shit like function calling (which we just successfully wrote a program for actually!!)
00:12:36 <ais523> right, there definitely is a start in terms of how you run it, that just isn't visible from inside the running Feather interpreter, which believes it's been implemented inside another Feather interpreter as an infinite regress
00:13:05 <MarkFan8901> so you could treat the meta-interpreter stack as a lazy list
00:13:47 <ais523> yes, there's an HQ9+ variant that has a self-interpreter
00:13:57 <ais523> but this is almost certainly cheating
00:14:12 <MarkFan8901> incredibly funny thing to know off hand tho
00:14:57 <MarkFan8901> theres also the trivial case of that hq9+ variant where the *only* thing you can do is self-interpret
00:16:00 <MarkFan8901> yknow thinking about it, ralsei restricted so that you cant edit the run cut isnt tc
00:16:29 <MarkFan8901> cuz you cant edit where the position of the run cut is, therefore you cant do any jumps and therefore no backwards jumps
00:16:37 <MarkFan8901> ..actually wait that just makes it a dafsa
00:17:11 <MarkFan8901> shits less powerful than regex without smoc
00:17:42 <ais523> what's the first "a" in "dafsa"?
00:18:21 <ais523> good computational class if you want to make absolutely sure there isn't enough control flow to be TC
00:19:03 <MarkFan8901> we're wondering how powerful itd be if you could access the run cut like a normal cut, but not change it
00:20:11 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192276&oldid=192275 * Miui * (-5) /* personal esopages */
00:20:12 <MarkFan8901> it *might* be tc, you could definitely implement loops and you could technically type stuff into the run cut
00:20:39 <MarkFan8901> the main limitation we were thinking of was that you can only type stuff in cuts at their cursor
00:20:54 <MarkFan8901> which is basically the instruction pointer for the run cut
00:21:35 <MarkFan8901> but you could bypass this by first typing whatever code you want in a separate cut, then copying it back into the run cut at an offset
00:21:41 <MarkFan8901> cuz the `copy` instruction lets you do that
00:22:22 <MarkFan8901> so yea no you could still implement functions with that restriction, no matter how jankily
00:22:29 <MarkFan8901> which would make ralsei with that restriction tc
00:22:40 <ais523> being able to copy new code to the location in front of the instruction pointer (so that the instruction pointer runs into it) can be enough control flow for Turing-completeness, if the rest of the language is powerful enough
00:22:57 <ais523> there is an interpretation of Underload in which it acts like that
00:24:15 <ais523> well, languages like SMITH and Forte I think just append to the program, rather than necessarily inserting at the specific location where the instruction pointer is
00:24:16 <MarkFan8901> but yea you could implement functions in exactly the manner we did but instead of switching the run cut it just pastes it into the next part of the code
00:24:38 <ais523> (Forte can move lines around arbitrarily, whereas SMITH may be restricted to the end)
00:25:30 <MarkFan8901> oh we should also say theres instructions that can give you the position of the cursor/the size of the cut respectively
00:26:02 <MarkFan8901> which we feel like would let you do arithmetic with them to get the exact place you wanna put your code in
00:26:18 <MarkFan8901> so yea the rest of the language is powerful enough to carry the tc-ness to the finish line
00:29:39 <MarkFan8901> perhaps ralsei without smoc could take a movfuscator approach?
00:29:53 <MarkFan8901> cuz there are conditionals and arithmetic stuff at any rate
00:30:22 <MarkFan8901> wait no thats limited by the fact all the instructions take literals
00:31:40 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192277&oldid=192276 * Miui * (-91) /* actually hilarious */
00:47:39 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192278&oldid=192215 * Miui * (+1100)
00:49:01 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192279&oldid=192278 * Miui * (-1100) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192278|192278]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]])
00:53:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Aheui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192280&oldid=187768 * Miui * (-148) /* Lost Kingdom */ removed link cause of some type of reasoning that im too tired to argue with
00:56:31 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192281&oldid=192277 * Miui * (-35) /* personal esopages */ changed mirror to other place cause of some type of reasoning ok imma take a shower now o7
00:57:04 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192282&oldid=192281 * Miui * (+34) /* personal esopages */ changed mirror to other place cause of some type of reasoning ok imma take a shower now o7
01:33:50 -!- amby has quit (Quit: so long suckers! i rev up my motorcylce and create a huge cloud of smoke. when the cloud dissipates im lying completely dead on the pavement).
01:36:29 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
01:58:15 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192283&oldid=192279 * Miui * (+235)
01:59:26 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192284&oldid=192283 * Miui * (-235) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/192283|192283]] by [[Special:Contributions/Miui|Miui]] ([[User talk:Miui|talk]])
02:08:19 <esolangs> [[File:Starcraft.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192285&oldid=187364 * Miui * (+38) some pastebin activities of mine sorry
02:22:24 -!- ^[ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:27:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192286&oldid=190904 * Marcus 2n2 * (+136)
02:30:02 <esolangs> [[!4warning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192287&oldid=186837 * Miui * (+93) moved link to some other place and stuff and things
02:34:30 -!- ^[ has joined.
02:36:24 <zzo38> I had thought of category of regular expressions that I had mentioned before. I think one functor would be making each character in a regular expression optional (individually).
02:38:06 <zzo38> Another class of functors (one for each natural number) would be making each character in both regular expressions and strings duplicated the specified number of times instead of once (if the number is 1, then it is a identity functor, and if the number is 0, then everything is mapped to the identity morphism of a empty regular expression).
02:40:49 <X-Scale> have some new interesting programming language concept been discovered while developing all those very exotic languages? like something fundamental
02:47:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192288&oldid=192286 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+187)
03:01:13 <zzo38> (I think the first one that I mentioned, with making each character individually optional, would also make a comonad, maybe)
03:06:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Starcraft.png]]": uploader request, only used in userspace
03:07:17 -!- MarkFan8901 has quit (Quit: Client closed).
03:32:54 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/RetroArch Cheats]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192289&oldid=192110 * Miui * (+45) /* Examples */ fixed link
03:33:45 <esolangs> [[?index.php]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192290&oldid=191757 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+116) how come [[I/D machine]] be useful???
03:57:14 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, so it's just a single DESTDIR prefix, no variables per each install directory? weird
03:58:02 <ais523> b_jonas: there are variables per install directory but they're the same for the compile-time "place installed files here" location and the run-time "run the program from here" location
03:58:34 <ais523> the basic idea behind DESTDIR is that the DESTDIR directory's directory structure is a mirror of that of the root filesystem you're installing on
03:58:55 <ais523> and packaging tools take a directory that looks like that as input
04:02:57 <b_jonas> ais523: for a packaging tool that works, but if I'm not making a package but directly cross-installing to a different system whose file systems I have mounted in different places then it won't work
04:03:30 <ais523> b_jonas: I think it still works if one root filesystem is mounted directly inside the other
04:03:32 <b_jonas> but at least this seems to suggest that there isn't a standard convention for that, so I can just make up whatever variables I want, at least until I find evidence of an existing convention
04:03:43 <b_jonas> and make them default to prefixing DESTDIR that is
04:05:12 <ais523> I guess DESTDIR+tar works for the cross-install situation
04:05:20 <ais523> tar up the DESTDIR, then untar in the root of the other computer
04:05:30 <ais523> (from the point of view of its directory layout)
04:07:12 <zzo38> For my own projects, I wrote my own program to make the "tar" file for distribution, because the existing "tar" program is inadequate.
04:07:45 <zzo38> (although, the existing "tar" program is good for many other uses of "tar" file format, even though not this one)
04:07:52 <ais523> zzo38: does it create tar files in any of the standard formats (e.g. POSIX tar / USTAR / GNU tar), or do you have your own variant of it?
04:10:15 <zzo38> The resulting file is compatible with GNU tar (I have tested it with "tar t"), and uses the format figured out from the combination of GNU source code and from examination of tar files produced by GNU (which do not always exactly match what is documented in the GNU source code).
04:11:42 <zzo38> The "magic" field says "ustar" in the files generated by my program.
04:12:01 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192291&oldid=192241 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+644)
04:12:46 <esolangs> [[UserMade]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192292&oldid=170200 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+67) categorization
04:12:55 <esolangs> [[UserMade]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192293&oldid=192292 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (-1) oops
04:13:02 <esolangs> [[UserMade]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192294&oldid=192293 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+1) ...
04:13:47 <esolangs> [[Boink]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192295&oldid=168293 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+128) categorization
04:14:53 <zzo38> See https://raw.githubusercontent.com/zzo38/superzz0/refs/heads/trunk/misc/maketar.c if you want to see the actual program
04:16:30 <esolangs> [[TerraScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192296&oldid=154595 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+110) categorization
04:21:03 <zzo38> Is there something that you think would potentially cause a problem?
04:25:51 <esolangs> [[Karvity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192297&oldid=192245 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-88) /* See also */ Currently its class is not known, sadly
04:26:42 <esolangs> [[Desmoslang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192298&oldid=109585 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+84) year, implemented, and unknown computational class categories
04:27:02 <esolangs> [[Desmoslang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192299&oldid=192298 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+0) wdym 2026???
04:29:05 <esolangs> [[Bracket]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192300&oldid=183345 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+115) some more categories
04:37:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds).
04:40:11 <b_jonas> als523: also this still leaves my other question of how to expect the user wants to specify a different directory for where the shared libraries for a dependency is found at link-time vs at runtime
04:40:42 <b_jonas> but maybe at runtime is not the build system's problem at all
04:45:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192301&oldid=186202 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+1664) /* uhh */ new section
04:46:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192302&oldid=192301 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+378) /* uhh */
04:47:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spiki.pirwu * New user account
04:55:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192303&oldid=192264 * Spiki.pirwu * (+181)
05:40:11 <ais523> b_jonas: Windows' solution to this is interesting, a shared library comes as two files, one which is used only at runtime and one which is used only for linking
05:41:12 <ais523> (the "used for linking" file is basically just a list of symbols plus information about how to locate them in the "used at runtime" version of the library, it doesn't contain the library's code)
05:41:58 <b_jonas> which one is used for symbolic debugging?
05:42:07 <esolangs> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192304&oldid=191580 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+904) /* Implementation */ Add C89 example and correct the C++ examples, also explain why the C/C++ and Pascal ones work
05:42:26 <b_jonas> also can't you generate the compile time one from the runtime one easily?
05:42:38 <ais523> there's a program to do it
05:43:01 <b_jonas> yeah, that's what I recalled
05:43:55 <esolangs> [[Mixed allocators]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192305&oldid=190531 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+168) /* Examples */ [[Segmentation fault]] interpreter
05:44:12 <ais523> hmm, maybe all this is workarounds for compilers not understanding dynamic libraries
05:44:33 <b_jonas> you can hardly blame them, most people don't understand dynamic libraries
05:45:11 <ais523> but it has meant that on Windows, there's no expectation that you have your dynamic-library dependencies available in the expected runtime place at link time
05:45:32 <ais523> and also opens up the possibility of linking the program before the dynamic libraries are built
05:46:10 <esolangs> [[Use-after-free]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192306&oldid=190532 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+208) /* Examples */ [[Segmentation fault]] interpreter
05:46:33 <b_jonas> I think I don't understand static or dynamic
05:46:40 <ais523> fwiw, I'm not a huge fan of shared libraries, all but the very mosty widely ones (like libc) don't get linked into enough programs to give substantial memory/disk savings and many programs end up shipping their own versions of them anyway (in which case the only advantage over static linking is allowing the library to be swapped out without needing a (static) relink)
05:47:09 <ais523> * very most widely used ones
05:48:41 <b_jonas> maybe, but if we want to implement dynamic libraries for the more widely linked ones, then I don't see why we shouldn't also use them for other libraries
05:50:39 <ais523> one potential reason is that if you have few enough dynamic libraries, you can coordinate to give them all standard offsets from each other, meaning there's no need for an actual dynamic linking step (which tends to be complicated, both causing performance issues and increasing attack surface)
05:50:58 <zzo38> I prefer to avoid needing too many dependencies, so dynamic libraries are usually only used when included with the operating system or if specified in a user configuration file. (However, avoiding too many dependencies would also include avoiding too many static dependencies as well.)
05:52:26 <b_jonas> ais523: we need something like a dynamic linking step for runtime dispatching between different versions of functions anyway, don't we?
05:52:43 <ais523> I'm not sure what you mean by that
05:53:14 <b_jonas> like for when you compile a single executable with an AVX512 and an AVX2 version of some vector computation function, and at program startup time the right one gets linked
05:53:39 <b_jonas> both gcc and rustc offer significant help to do this these days
05:53:45 <b_jonas> though they're not perfect
05:54:12 <ais523> this also has a lot of attack surface, of course (it's how the xz-utils malware worked)
05:54:22 <b_jonas> I know there's the alternative of compiling seprate executable versions of the whole program and just adding a stub that loads the right one
05:54:46 <ais523> also the alternative of just adding a couple of if statements at strategic locations
05:54:58 <ais523> (which isn't quite zero-cost, but can be cheap if you keep them out of inner loops)
05:55:28 <ais523> and the alternative of providing multiple separate executables for download, too
05:59:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Michal92299 * New user account
06:14:06 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Quit: Client closed).
06:16:03 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
06:30:47 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:54:14 <esolangs> [[?index.php]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192307&oldid=192290 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+21) add end thing
07:24:58 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Quit: Client closed).
07:31:38 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
07:41:34 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds).
08:11:34 -!- callforjudgement has joined.
08:12:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
08:21:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192308&oldid=192302 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+815)
08:33:07 -!- Yayimheretoo has joined.
08:35:10 <APic> Breakfasting Oat-Milk
08:35:13 <APic> Nom nom nom π
08:35:15 <APic> Yayimheretoo: And You?
08:35:36 <Yayimheretoo> APic: im good, though I am sick, but it does mean I get more time to do computer things
08:36:17 <Yayimheretoo> i have sadly begun to have a slight aversion to esolanging, as everything I maake seems so abstract and weird noawadys
08:36:25 <APic> Yayimheretoo: Good Betterment!
08:36:32 <APic> And enjoy Your Computing Time! π
08:37:13 <Yayimheretoo> btw APic imm curious have you created any esolangs?
08:38:36 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: do you know about car? no magic?
08:38:49 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: a tool for every job in somalia. :)
08:38:59 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
08:39:25 <Yayimheretoo> seems fungot has provided lots of support to somalia then
08:39:25 <fungot> Yayimheretoo: yes, but i can do so in illustrious places like mit, but are you certain your syntax definition is wrong,
08:40:02 <ais523> was actually just considering disconnecting, but I can stay connected a few minutes longer
08:41:01 <Yayimheretoo> I mean I just saw you came js now(? I think) and wanted to great ya, so dont let me hold you if you wanna go
08:41:39 <APic> Good Morning ais523 π
08:42:04 <ais523> I hadn't been paying attention for so long that I got disconnected and came back on an alt nick
08:42:18 <APic> Better late then never ;=P
08:44:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit).
08:52:36 <esolangs> [[Purely Object-Oriented Producer-based/Constructorless Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192309&oldid=181612 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+21428) Undo revision [[Special:Diff/181612|181612]] by [[Special:Contributions/RaiseAfloppaFan3925|RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] ([[User talk:RaiseAfloppaFan3925|talk]]) [noo come back]
09:09:29 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
09:11:25 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Client Quit).
09:11:52 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
09:11:58 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Client Quit).
09:12:14 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
09:18:54 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192310&oldid=191576 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+14073) /* IF UPPERCASE KEYWORDS == ESOTERIC THEN DIE ELSE DIE END */ stop taking 10 minutes to load
09:25:11 <esolangs> [[User:Raiseafloppafan7741]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192311&oldid=192291 * Raiseafloppafan7741 * (+128) /* 2025-2026 - flop era */ add 2
09:27:43 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * CDEV * uploaded "[[File:Icosphere.gif]]"
09:33:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * CDEV * uploaded "[[File:3D Renderer.gif]]"
09:36:20 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192314 * CDEV * (+1791) Added information about the Filmstock language.
09:37:29 -!- X-Scale has joined.
09:39:42 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192315&oldid=192314 * CDEV * (+21) /* Technical details */
09:41:28 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192316&oldid=192315 * CDEV * (+44) /* Lore */
09:45:03 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
09:45:04 -!- Yayimheretoo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
09:53:17 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192317&oldid=192316 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+186) cat
09:55:01 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192318&oldid=192317 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-36) dont start pages with a subsection
09:56:18 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192319&oldid=192318 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-34) move the github repo link to an external resources subsection
09:56:37 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192320&oldid=192319 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+62) /* External resources */ huh?
09:57:52 <esolangs> [[Talk:Filmstock]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192321 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+227) question
10:00:12 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192322&oldid=192282 * Miui * (+88) /* Archiving efforts */ https://iannmiui-png.github.io/wiki/QuineAvoiding(%22%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97%22,%20%22%22)/
10:00:21 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192323&oldid=192320 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+38) fix
10:02:59 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192324&oldid=192322 * Miui * (+112) /* Constant languages */ *[[ConstantLanguage("https://iannmiui-png.github.io/wiki/QuineAvoiding(%22%E6%BC%A2%E5%AD%97%22,%20%22%22)")]]/
10:14:30 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192325&oldid=192323 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+9) mark as stub
10:21:56 <b_jonas> fungot, do you bake cakes from right-handed batter?
10:21:56 <fungot> b_jonas: i once pondered the idea of fnord definition is fixed up to turn that into a macro that's basically a list of users."?
10:22:17 <b_jonas> (re https://xkcd.com/3293/ )
10:23:44 -!- somefan_ has joined.
10:25:48 -!- somefan has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
10:31:53 -!- somefan_ has changed nick to somefan.
10:32:38 -!- somefan has changed hostmask to ~somefan@user/somefan.
10:41:33 -!- somefan has quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds).
10:47:18 <esolangs> [[QuineAvoiding("", "")]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192326&oldid=191573 * Miui * (+45) /* External resources */ update online demo to route around my personal webpage cause i accidently left some old links or something and people are like 1/17th of my skillzzzz 1337
10:52:30 <esolangs> [[User:Miui]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192327&oldid=192324 * Miui * (+118) /* Archiving efforts */
11:00:13 <esolangs> [[User:Miui/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192328&oldid=192284 * Miui * (+70) move .: to WIP section
11:02:14 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192329 * Miui * (+2179) create
11:02:21 <esolangs> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192330&oldid=190658 * FordsTheodore * (+779) add noisychicken
11:29:12 <esolangs> [[Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192331&oldid=172996 * Chris Pressey * (+1181) I am satisfied that Burro is Turing-complete
11:38:25 -!- amby has joined.
11:41:42 <esolangs> [[BFStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192332&oldid=119500 * None1 * (+37)
11:41:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:BFStack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192333&oldid=119525 * None1 * (-1)
11:43:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:WSAP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192334&oldid=192255 * Miui * (+121)
11:43:28 <esolangs> [[File talk:346px-WY21W lamp.jpg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192335 * None1 * (+300) Created page with "Is this public domain? --~~~~"
11:54:20 <esolangs> [[ChooseMatrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192336&oldid=192187 * None1 * (+784) TC
11:54:29 <esolangs> [[ChooseMatrix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192337&oldid=192336 * None1 * (+0) /* Computational class */
11:58:55 <esolangs> [[PROLAN/M]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192338&oldid=191718 * Miui * (-17) /* External resources */ moved demo link to github pages rather than neocities
11:59:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192339&oldid=192254 * None1 * (+444) /* Esolang:Categorization#Languages is inconsistent */ Adding would be easier than removing
12:02:42 <esolangs> [[PROLAN/M]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192340&oldid=192338 * Miui * (+42) /* External resources */ i noticed there has been a lot of edit wars here so i took the liberty of archiving it and providing alternate links
12:12:35 <esolangs> [[++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192341&oldid=190263 * Miui * (+1) /* Interpreter */ pwned the cccp / maybe just did a normal sincere attempt to be a user / just being weird online / maybe just being a "scummy" who knows!? who cares?!
12:17:32 <esolangs> [[P]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192342&oldid=190262 * Miui * (+9) /* External resources */ moved it
12:41:08 <esolangs> [[A bliss-pit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192343&oldid=181177 * Miui * (+37) seems like it should be deleted cause it doesnt make the topic of grade, but i can archive it
12:47:03 <esolangs> [[-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192344&oldid=192163 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+11) /* Examples */ fix examples
13:44:57 <aadenboy> thank goodness for the esologs, occasional free reading material when I need to burn like 30 or so minutes
13:48:26 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
14:05:23 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 267 seconds).
14:12:20 <esolangs> [[Filmstock]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192345&oldid=192325 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-12) fix cat
14:22:14 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192346&oldid=192210 * Cordership * (-65) /* Conditional statement */
14:22:27 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192347&oldid=192346 * Cordership * (+9) /* Conditional statement */
14:23:38 <esolangs> [[Ghmi-Asden Tnauin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192348&oldid=191920 * Cordership * (-13)
14:23:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192349&oldid=188079 * Bobby Jacobs * (+749) /* An interesting fact about bald eagles */ new section
14:24:02 -!- X-Scale has joined.
14:24:34 -!- Mrsommer has joined.
14:27:19 -!- mosdfisdnfdisnf has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:28:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192350&oldid=192349 * Bobby Jacobs * (+225) /* An interesting fact about bald eagles */
14:29:33 -!- amby has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:32:45 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:36:21 <esolangs> [[Stexmix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192351&oldid=186772 * Miui * (+18382) add example
14:38:54 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192352&oldid=192350 * Blashyrkh * (+450) /* An interesting fact about bald eagles */
14:39:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192353&oldid=192352 * Blashyrkh * (+0) /* An interesting fact about bald eagles */
14:50:32 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Quit: Client closed).
14:50:46 -!- raiseafloppafan has joined.
15:39:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192354&oldid=192353 * PkmnQ * (+580) /* An interesting fact about bald eagles */ Various alternate expressions
15:39:52 -!- raiseafloppafan7 has joined.
15:43:27 -!- raiseafloppafan has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
15:54:39 -!- Guest42 has joined.
15:58:37 -!- Guest42 has quit (Client Quit).
16:08:06 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192355 * Assembly * (+56) Redirected page to [[-#]]
16:08:38 <esolangs> [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192356 * Assembly * (+60) Redirected page to [[-#]]
16:38:33 -!- somefan has joined.
16:44:53 <esolangs> [[File talk:346px-WY21W lamp.jpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192357&oldid=192335 * Ais523 * (+316) source for public domain status
17:01:39 <esolangs> [[File talk:346px-WY21W lamp.jpg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192358&oldid=192357 * PkmnQ * (+257)
18:06:09 -!- lisbeths has joined.
18:21:52 -!- inhahe has quit (Quit: Bouncer shutting down).
18:30:36 -!- inhahe has joined.
18:31:02 -!- chloetax has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:31:34 <esolangs> [[User:CodePentuplets48]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192359&oldid=188030 * CodePentuplets48 * (+101)
18:36:47 -!- lzg has joined.
18:52:28 -!- chloetax has joined.
19:06:04 -!- somefan has quit (Ping timeout: 269 seconds).
20:37:05 <esolangs> [[Dsii]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192360&oldid=179500 * Squidmanescape * (+13)
20:42:49 <esolangs> [[Morshu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192361&oldid=179321 * Squidmanescape * (+192)
20:47:09 <esolangs> [[Relations]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=192362 * Hakerh400 * (+3833) +[[Relations]]
20:47:35 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192363&oldid=192184 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Relations]]
20:47:50 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192364&oldid=191516 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[Relations]]
20:48:53 <esolangs> [[Relations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192365&oldid=192362 * Hakerh400 * (+33)
20:50:15 <esolangs> [[Relations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192366&oldid=192365 * Hakerh400 * (+13)
20:56:34 -!- MarkFan8901 has joined.
20:57:23 <MarkFan8901> we've been thinking about our idea of a language whose syntax is tc
20:57:45 <MarkFan8901> something we just came up with is having () and {} brackets interleave
20:58:20 <MarkFan8901> and within the () and {}, the { and ) (respectively) are both operators
20:58:59 <MarkFan8901> so ie (a{b)c} would be both the statement (a { b) and {b ) c}
20:59:37 <MarkFan8901> this is a really natural way to map the { and ) tokens to more than one node of a tree at the same time
21:00:15 <MarkFan8901> which, in generator terms, is effectively rewriting a terminal into two different nonterminals
21:00:56 <MarkFan8901> something only unrestricted grammars can do (aka string rewriting systems (aka something turing complete))
21:06:22 <MarkFan8901> yknow a lot of our ideas on that language have been thinking about ways to make the grammar *almost* ambiguous
21:07:04 <MarkFan8901> but juust unambiguous enough to still be parsed deterministically
21:07:39 <MarkFan8901> we've thought before that loops could be done by 'flip-flopping' between two different parser states
21:08:06 <MarkFan8901> ie if having token A in parenthenses would then require having A also be in curly braces
21:09:28 <MarkFan8901> uh we cant think of anything clever to follow that up with off the top of our head ;w;
21:09:43 <MarkFan8901> but a trivial loop could be having {...A...} -> (...A...) again
21:12:02 <MarkFan8901> if there actually was a tc syntax whose control flow was via different 'modes' which were mutually ambiguous, we wonder if that would mean nondeterministic machines could solve them in a finite amount of time
21:13:12 <MarkFan8901> cuz you would still have to have *one* recognition of the string at the end of the day (ambiguity =/= nondeterminism)
21:13:44 <MarkFan8901> ..maybe nondeterministic machines could detect loops in a language like that?
21:15:14 <MarkFan8901> at any rate we really wanna see others try their hand at making a turing complete syntax
21:16:04 <MarkFan8901> we might put some rules done for clarification if anyone does (a basic one is you cant loop tc semantics through the syntax, like perl and latex) but we are a little tired
21:26:23 <FreeFull> MarkFan8901: You could name it Venn
21:33:08 <MarkFan8901> surprisingly that is somehow not taken yet
21:58:20 <esolangs> [[Talk:S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192367&oldid=190488 * Gribnit * (+214) /* Eye-twitch survey */ new section
22:51:05 -!- somefan has joined.
22:51:31 -!- somefan has changed hostmask to ~somefan@user/somefan.
23:20:02 <esolangs> [[Funciton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=192368&oldid=190815 * Timwi * (+130) Adding another array function
23:31:03 -!- X-Scale has quit (Ping timeout: 251 seconds).
23:38:55 -!- X-Scale has joined.