←2004-08 2004-09 2004-10→ ↑2004 ↑all
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07:41:20 <lament> ...
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12:29:21 <JoeyP> !
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21:28:25 <toreun> hi all
21:31:29 <fizzie> hi.
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11:20:56 <lindi-> mui.
11:24:07 <fizzie> ehlo.
11:25:15 <ZeroOne> :)
11:25:54 <ZeroOne> do we use english or finnish in this channel?
11:27:45 <lindi-> looks like english to me
11:28:38 <ZeroOne> fine by me. :P so where's that befunge-interpreter of yours?
11:30:45 <lindi-> well, it's been forgotten for a year or so, i was supposed to releaese it when i could make it less ugly but that never happened
11:30:45 <fizzie> huh, what befunge interpreter, where?
11:30:57 <fizzie> the "jit-compiling" one?
11:31:01 <lindi-> yeah
11:31:55 <ZeroOne> oh. ok. :/ here's my brainfuck-interpreter anyway: http://koti.mbnet.fi/~villes/php/bf.php (nested loops still not implemented).
11:37:05 <lindi-> pwd
11:37:07 <lindi-> whoops
11:37:22 <ZeroOne> 1337
11:37:55 <lindi-> anyway, it's really ugly, crappy and all but due to popular demand i'll put a version online soon, just a sec
11:43:45 <lindi-> fizzie: iki.fi/lindi/binterp
11:51:20 <lindi-> ZeroOne: fizzie: and especially iki.fi/lindi/binterp/binterp-0.001/BENCHMARKS :)
11:58:26 <fizzie> eh, benchmarked with ff?
11:58:53 <fizzie> hey, ff is relatively fast as far as 'real interpreters' go.
12:00:32 <lindi-> true
12:01:36 <lindi-> fizzie: iirc ff was the (second) fastest i could find to run fibonacci.2.bf
12:02:14 <fizzie> last time I benchmarked speedwise it was pretty close to mooz's 'bef'.
12:02:27 <fizzie> code-quality-wise and buglessness-wise perhaps not so.
12:02:28 <mtve> would you please put out fibonacci source code too?
12:02:38 <lindi-> mtve: it's there now
12:02:45 <lindi-> mtve: i silently updated the .tar.gz
12:03:08 <mtve> oh :)
12:03:13 <fizzie> is that a recursive implementation? (judging from the speed.)
12:04:40 <mtve> well, optimizators without 'p' operator could go very far.
12:04:43 <fizzie> heh, it's seems to be mooz's newest optimized version of my old fibre.bef.
12:05:35 <lindi-> yeah, i could put some credits there actually
12:06:04 <lindi-> but the file has been lying in my home directory for a year so that i really can't remember where those originally came from
12:06:19 <lindi-> fibonacci.2.bf fibonacci.3.bf fibonacci.4.bf fibonacci.5.bf fibonacci.6.bf fibonacci.bf
12:06:23 <fizzie> hheh.
12:07:42 <lindi-> fizzie: http://iki.fi/lindi/binterp/binterp-0.001/BENCHMARKS now includes mooz's bef too
12:11:23 <lindi-> mtve: 'p' could be possible to implement by calling construct_linked_list() and generate_code() again
12:11:46 <mtve> yep
12:12:28 <lindi-> and foo bar p could mark (foo, bar) as dirty so that recompilation would occur only if the program flow hits (foo, bar)
12:12:55 <lindi-> i mean s/foo/x/g;s/bar/y/g
13:11:20 <ZeroOne> btw, I've created quite a few esoteric programming language articles in Wikipedia during the past month. you guys can see, too, if you can create or improve any of these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_esoteric_programming_languages :)
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06:46:31 <lament> hrm
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21:13:36 <ZeroOne> lindi-: so what do you think about the idea of a fungeoid with variable length commands? or anyone else?
21:19:46 <lindi-> ZeroOne: interesting idea, have you tried to define the commands for such a language?
21:20:20 <lindi-> (and check if it it open any interesting possibilities)
21:21:25 <ZeroOne> lindi-: no, I haven't done anything but this initial idea. ;p
21:21:41 <ZeroOne> well, I did think that it would be nice if the program flow could go diagonally
21:22:20 <ZeroOne> and the befunge-# would need to be able to jump over more than one next character
21:23:36 <ZeroOne> or if variable length commands didn't work, then three characters long, but so that vertical movement would still be treated by single columns, not by colums of three.
21:23:59 <lindi-> hmm
21:27:53 <ZeroOne> something has to be thought for orphan letters which probably will appear. maybe if a letter set doesn't form an instruction, it could be pushed to stack
21:29:39 <lindi-> perhaps, at least throwing out 'syntax error' does not feel nice
21:30:18 <ZeroOne> no, definitely not
21:30:33 <lindi-> (unless the purpose of the language is to have such a complex syntax that one actually has to take advantage of syntax errors -g)
21:31:18 <ZeroOne> :D
21:31:39 <ZeroOne> mm. that would be something. error-based language.
21:32:07 <fizzie> merh, our interweb connection is flaky.
21:32:35 <ZeroOne> *inttar web
21:32:48 <fizzie> and I think esolang (the mailing list) had some talk about how to get more possible commands for befunge.
21:33:10 <fizzie> if you want a longer jump than #, you can use funge98, it has all the "cheating" instructions one could wish for.
21:34:01 <ZeroOne> ok. can you define new functions in it, too? :)
21:35:33 <fizzie> not really, no, but that's ultra-cheaty.
21:35:33 <fizzie> the esolang discussion actually might've been about befunge and functions.
21:36:51 <fizzie> was going to write a befunge variant with "define", "call" and "return" instructions. 'define' would take an (x,y) pair that defines the start of an function and a small integer 'n' which would be the "name", 'call' would pop n and go to the function, but push the return address to stack, and 'return' would pop the return address off the stack and go back.
21:37:10 <fizzie> not sure if I wanted a separate "execution stack" or to use the normal stack for it.
21:38:03 <lindi-> separate stack would be too easy
21:38:19 <fizzie> yes, but if I use the normal stack then delivering parameters to functions will be hard.
21:38:43 <fizzie> could of course have 'define' take the number of arguments and then do some creative rearranging on 'call'.
21:39:12 <fizzie> then the function could do some funky stuff with its own return address if it wanted.
21:40:50 <lindi-> fizzie: btw, completely offtopic, is there some way to search messages in tkknews.hut.fi?
21:41:12 <lindi-> (without having to fetch all the messages)
21:42:27 <fizzie> not sure. I don't think so, but I think the subject might've been discussed in the news when tkknews was introduced.
21:42:34 <fizzie> "you could try searching for that" :p
21:44:15 <lindi-> rright.. so no direct access to the filesystem where the messages are?
21:45:16 <ZeroOne> ask in the atk-keskus newsgroup...
21:47:28 <ZeroOne> hey lindi-... remember that stupid picture in today's Power Point show? the one where the PC was cooking something.
21:47:38 <lindi-> yeah, what about it?
21:47:56 <ZeroOne> I bet the teacher didn't know how good the "programming is like making recipes" comparison was: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/chef.html ;)
21:48:40 <lindi-> i didn't know that one, but i did recall that rms uses that comparison often too
21:49:24 <ZeroOne> what's rms?
21:50:09 <ZeroOne> or who
21:51:31 <lindi-> ZeroOne: richard stallman, stallman.org
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03:37:29 <calamari_> hi
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04:15:52 <lament> hi
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15:04:30 <ZeroOne> hi
01:53:19 <lament> hi
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18:39:14 <Keymaker> hey..
18:49:33 <Keymaker> ZeroOne: interesting php brainfuck interpreter coming up there
18:51:01 <Keymaker> hopefully you'll get the inner-loops support done sometime to get ',[[.>]<]' working :)
18:51:32 <Keymaker> anyways, good luck
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00:59:56 <lament> !
01:00:27 <lament> of course there already exists a php brainfuck interpreter
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19:18:29 <Keymaker> ZeroOne: in my previous message i had a small brainfuck code ',[[.>]<]'
19:19:08 <Keymaker> ZeroOne: well, of course i didn't think that in php interpreter that kind of infinite printing most probably won't happen :} sorry about that
19:19:48 <Keymaker> ZeroOne: so, ',[[.>]<-]' a good target :)
19:21:03 <Keymaker> and with this start 'ZeroOne: ' i mean that these lines are meant for you to read :)
19:21:16 <Keymaker> anyways, good night all
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19:25:41 <ZeroOne> Keymaker: OK.
19:26:04 <ZeroOne> I'm just afraid that I need to do an Ugly Hack(tm) to make those nested loops work
19:27:00 <ZeroOne> I don't really like Ugly Hacks and I'm sort of short of time nowadays but I'll try to get to it sooner than later. :)
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17:51:34 <fizzie> my laptop is the brokenness now. :(
17:51:39 <fizzie> "was fun while it lasted".
17:52:08 <fizzie> although in retrospect ~1550eur was a bit much for a machine that worked for six days.
18:42:44 <lindi-> uh
18:44:31 <fizzie> that's over 250eur/day, after all.
19:35:20 <lindi-> ZeroOne: btw, while cycling back home i got a new idea regarding that language where one task can be done in only one way
19:35:47 <fizzie> elaborate. clog's back.
19:41:10 <lindi-> so, if every program is presented as a mathematical function, say f(x), then the language could be defined so that only the form of f(x) that is the "most" simplified is legal
19:42:03 <lindi-> fizzie: at least with polynomials it should not be possible to get a function (read: program) that behaves in the same way, unless the functions are identical
19:42:42 <lindi-> so the core idea is that there needs to be some set of simplication rules
19:42:56 <fizzie> wellll, yes, if you limit your mathematical notation enough.
19:45:12 <fizzie> polynomials are safe in that way.
19:46:17 <fizzie> actually I think we proved in one of our maths courses that n-degree polynomials are.. ah, what's the word? n-ulotteisen avaruuden kanta, tavallaan. yksiksitteiset koordinaatit ja nin.
19:46:28 <lindi-> :)
19:47:52 <fizzie> it's still pretty limited, though, but at least your 'programs' can now take a set of real numbers as input and return a set of real numbers as output.
19:49:33 <ZeroOne> hmm. interesting.
19:50:02 <ZeroOne> fizzie: "radix of n-dimensional space, sort of. unambiguous coordinates etc."
19:50:17 <fizzie> thanks.
19:50:27 <fizzie> it was the 'radix' word I wasn't so sure of.
19:52:42 <fizzie> complex functions make for some really weird plots.
19:53:13 <fizzie> if you happen to have mathematica and/or an equivalent piece of software (perhaps gnuplot would be enough), plot Plot3D[Arg[f2[x, y]], {x, -5, 5}, {y, -5, 5}, PlotPoints -> 100,
19:53:16 <fizzie> Mesh -> False]
19:53:20 <fizzie> erhm.
19:53:25 <ZeroOne> lindi-: so every program would be a polynomial of degree n, or something?
19:53:30 <fizzie> there's a piece of misplaced copypasting.
19:53:44 <fizzie> since it doesn't include the actual function.
19:54:36 <fizzie> f2[x_, y_] := x^3 + 3x y^2 - 3x + i(y^3 + 3x^2y - 3y), where 'i' is the imaginary unit. when you plot the magnitude of that as a surface, it's as clean and smooth as.. well, as any function you'd like to name, but the argument plot..
19:55:18 <ZeroOne> ok... unfortunately I don't have any math software installed... I guess I should soon get something.
19:55:34 <lindi-> ZeroOne: well, if you extend the simplification rules you can support many other types too
19:56:08 <ZeroOne> although I once made a program that was able to draw 2d-diagrams of polynomial functions. in qbasic, even. ;P=
19:56:19 <lindi-> i wrote one in ti86 basic :P
19:56:58 <fizzie> and you need to limit yourself to finite-degree polynomials, otherwise you could have an infinitely-long program which would do the same as 'sin x' (if you write some simplification rules to allow trig. funcs)
19:56:59 <ZeroOne> yeah. but TI features all math functions built-in, qbasic doesn't.
19:57:27 <fizzie> heh, 2d plots of polynomials seems to be a popular project.
19:57:29 <ZeroOne> fizzie: gotta love mr. Taylor.
19:57:48 <fizzie> I think it was an exercise-or-sort-of in my high school.
19:57:57 <lindi-> fizzie: but what if "sin x" is not allowed but only the 'sarjakehitelm'
19:58:08 <fizzie> mooz at least wrote a.. pretty advanced one, in qbasic.
19:58:47 <lindi-> fizzie: that reminds me, where does mooz irc nowadays? /whois shows no channels but maybe they are secret/private
19:58:56 <ZeroOne> heh. :) we only had some really stupid piece of some software the teacher had made. copied that from paper and got disappointed when it did practically nothing: "oh, no, it shouldn't do anything, it's just the initialization function thingie!" was the teacher's response ;PP
19:59:59 <ZeroOne> who is mooz?
20:00:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure, really. I speak mostly in a query. he's been gradually moving to an apartment in kamppi, probably parted from #da during that time.
20:02:21 <lindi-> ZeroOne: apt-get install maxima and plot3d(x^3 + 3*x*y^2 - 3*x + %I*(y^3 + 3*x^2*y - 3*y), [x,-5,5], [y,-5,5]); if you want to see the function fizzie pasted
20:02:30 <lindi-> </propaganda>
20:03:31 <lindi-> hmm, you can even rotate the plot
20:03:54 <ZeroOne> lindi-: apt-get doesn't work under winblows, you know.
20:04:57 <fizzie> how does maxima plot complex-valued two-variable functions?
20:05:08 <lindi-> ZeroOne: http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/maxima/maxima-5.9.0.exe?download
20:05:35 <fizzie> with mathematica I need to use either Abs[] or Arg[] (well, or Re[] or Im[]) in front of it.
20:05:37 <ZeroOne> fine... :p
20:07:12 <lindi-> fizzie: iki.fi/lindi/maxima_plot3d.png
20:07:28 <fizzie> ah, but that's just the real part of it.
20:07:46 <fizzie> you want to use abs() or arg() (or corresponding maxima functions) if you want to see the strange-ness I mentioned.
20:08:39 <fizzie> and actually while the magnitude plot with abs() looks smooth, looking at it with the ranges [-2, 2] reveals otherwise.
20:12:23 <lindi-> fizzie: plot3d(cabs(x^3 + 3*x*y^2 - 3*x + %I*(y^3 + 3*x^2*y - 3*y)), [x,-5,5], [y,-5,5]); looks like iki.fi/lindi/maxima_plot3d_2.png
20:13:13 <fizzie> yes, doesn't it look pretty smooth?
20:15:55 <lindi-> yep
20:16:14 <fizzie> well, what about either a) the range [-2, 2] or b) the argument of the result?
20:16:28 <lindi-> argument?
20:16:34 <fizzie> also called 'angle'.
20:16:39 <fizzie> I don't know which maxima function it is.
20:18:35 <fizzie> extra credit for proving in which points of C that function is a) complex differentiable b) analytic. (the b part was relatively easy, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to do that a part.)
20:21:01 <lindi-> fizzie: now it does not look that smooth either indeed, iki.fi/lindi/maxima_plot3d_3.png
20:22:09 <fizzie> uh-huh.
20:28:57 <fizzie> eh, scratch that, now I'm not quite sure of the b part either. :p
20:29:13 <lindi-> no problem, i'm even more unsure :)
20:29:27 <lindi-> fizzie: were you in L1 or C1 math btw?
20:29:52 <fizzie> L1.
20:31:13 <fizzie> I thought the fact the function satisfies the cauchy-riemann equations only in the points of the imaginary and real axis, and therefore not in any real region of C, would be enough in stating it's not analytical. it still _might_ be, but..
20:32:48 <fizzie> the canonical definition would be that a complex function is analytical in point z0 if a derivative f' exists for all points z in a neighbourhood of z0, but in order to use that would require me solving the a) question.
20:33:02 <lindi-> hrm
20:34:24 <fizzie> some days I'm not quite sure why I'm in the L* series of maths courses anyway.
20:36:04 <fizzie> ah, right. in order for f to be analytical in a region G it would have the partial derivatives of its component functions satisfying cauchy-riemann, and since that isn't the case it can't be analytical. (I think.)
20:37:40 <fizzie> I still need some way to solve that 'a' part. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to prove that lim h->0 (f(z+h)-f(z))/h exists when h is a complex number and can approach 0 from any direction in the complex plane.
20:37:54 <fizzie> (and this for any z.)
20:38:35 <lindi-> don't know much about handling those (yet)
20:40:02 <fizzie> neither do I, but I'm sort-of supposed to. there could be a better way to do this though.
20:42:38 <lindi-> but at least i've learned something this week. when i cycled back home today i could also do some partical fraction decompositions in my head :P
20:42:52 <lindi-> s/partical/partial/
20:45:33 <fizzie> I freely admit I don't remember ~anything about how to do a LU-decomposition of a matrix.
21:03:06 <lindi-> anyway, need to sleep so that i can be awake on the math lecture
21:03:11 <lindi-> s/on/during/ :P
21:03:19 <fizzie> hnu.
21:03:23 <fizzie> g'night.
21:26:23 <Taaus> Oh, yippee... Complex analysis.
21:29:08 <fizzie> loads of fun.
21:30:09 <Taaus> Actually it's not too bad. I'm taking a course on it this semester.
21:37:48 <fizzie> oh? then you can tell me what's the easiest way to show where the derivative f'(z) for a complex function f(z) exists.
21:38:40 <fizzie> looking at the definition of f' (that is, f'(z) = lim h->0 (f(z+h)-f(z)/h) is awfully untrivial since h can approach 0 from any direction and I need to look at all points z.
21:41:07 <Taaus> Well... "Easiest" depends on the situation. But the Cauchy-Riemann equations are a safe bet.
21:45:48 <fizzie> but are CR enough? I mean, they definitely are enough to prove whether the function is analytical anywhere, but f'(z) could still exist in some isolated points without it being analytical there.
21:49:38 <Taaus> A function f=u+iv from an open subset of the complex plane to the complex plane itself is holomorphic if u and v are differentiable, and if the partial derivatives satisfy the relations du/dx = dv/dy and du/dy = -dv/dx (where the ds are "soft ds". I.e. partial differentiation.)
21:50:11 <Taaus> s/holomorphic if/holomorphic if and only if/
21:51:36 <Taaus> It can be applied to single points of the function as well. To prove differentiability in, say, (x_0,y_0).
21:54:12 <Taaus> I'm not sure what you mean by f'(z) existing in isolated points without being analytic in said points.
22:01:15 <fizzie> my definition of an analytic function says a function is analytic at point z0 if f'(z) exists for all z in a neighbourhood of z0, and it has a side remark saying "existance of f'(z) in a single point is not enough"
22:01:20 <fizzie> this in my lecture notes.
22:04:33 <Taaus> Hm. My notes don't mention analyticity in a single point. In gives the usual limit definition of differentiability and says a function is holomorphic if it is differentiable in all points. I suppose it makes sense that there needs to be a neighbourhood around z_0. You need more than a single point for an open subset.
22:06:25 <Taaus> If you can read Danish, you can take a look yourself. They're online at http://math.ku.dk/noter/ The course is called 2KF.
22:23:04 <fizzie> well, maybe my notes try to say that it needs to analytic in the open subset, but simply having f'(z) (that is, the limit existing) at a single point doesn't yet make it analytical.
22:23:15 <fizzie> s/al.$/./
22:23:31 <fizzie> who knows, I was probably at least half-asleep when I wrote that.
22:24:39 <fizzie> but our exercise question gives us a function and asks "in what subset of C the function f: z -> ... is (a) differentiable (b) analytic".
22:25:35 <fizzie> and I can easily say it's analytic nowhere in C, because it satisfies CR only at z=0, but I'm not quite sure about the differentiability thing.
22:26:19 <Taaus> Well... It's differentiable in the points where the limit exists... I guess you'll have to do it the hard way.
22:28:05 <fizzie> agh. I tried writing open "f(z+h)-f(z)" (with z=x+iy and h=hx+ihy) and ran out of paper width. granted, it's only a c5 envelope I'm writing on, since all proper paper is several meters right and I can't get myself off the chair
22:28:32 <Taaus> What's the function?
22:29:37 <fizzie> f: z=x+iy -> x^3 + 3xy^2 - 3x + i(y^3 + 3x^2y - 3y). I'm tempted to abuse the component functions u(z) and v(z) somehow here, since they are more humane.
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19:55:28 <fizzie> ho-hum.
19:55:44 <fizzie> well, now I have the solution for my last-evening function.
19:55:52 <lindi-> congrats :)
19:56:10 <fizzie> considering that I got it from the course assistant, I don't think it warrants congratulations.
19:58:06 <fizzie> the official way to solve it was to look at the function "u(z) = f(z) + z^3 - 3z", which is analytic and differentiable everywhere f(z) is, and that particular function makes f(z) simplify a bit, so that it is possible for a normal human to just look at lim_h->0 (u(z+h)-u(z))/h.
19:58:31 <fizzie> maybe 'u' was an unfortunate name.
20:00:18 <fizzie> and apparently also if the component functions u(z) and v(z) (when f(z) = u(z)+iv(z)) are differentiable and satisfy the cauchy-riemann equations in a single point, the function is indeed complex-differentiable there. it is a sufficient condition, but we weren't quite sure if it's a necessary one, too.
20:01:06 <fizzie> if the latter, it can be used to show that f(z) is complex-differentiable on the coordinate axes and analytic nowhere.
20:01:09 <fizzie> phew.
20:01:55 <lindi-> mm
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11:32:10 <fizzie> it's dbc! will we get some ascii art today?
11:41:21 <dbc> Hm, I'll have to think of something.
11:49:09 <dbc> O
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15:02:04 <fizzie> very nice!
19:41:35 <lament> not bad
19:41:45 <lament> now he needs to anti-alias it :)
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06:00:08 <lament> shapr!!
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11:07:04 <shapr> what?
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18:16:25 <ZeroOne> duh... some idiot placed all esoteric programming languages under Votes for Deletion in Wikipedia. :P
18:16:29 <ZeroOne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion#Esoteric_programming_language_related
18:16:51 <ZeroOne> "There seems to be a whole bunch of so called eEsoteric programming language that found its way into wikipedia over time. Personally I think most of them are rubbish and nothing more than a (lame) joke"
18:26:25 <ZeroOne> and then they're doing Google searches by their names and finding out that some language gets only 100 hits and make the conclusion that it is "not notable". :G
18:30:02 <lindi-> :(
18:33:20 <ZeroOne> but they're getting lots of KEEP-votes
18:33:48 <lindi-> ZeroOne: do i need to register to vote?
18:34:09 <lindi-> ZeroOne: also, was is so that you weren't coming to this lakinlaskijaiset thing?
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18:36:38 <ZeroOne> lindi-: no you don't
18:36:45 <ZeroOne> lindi-: no I'm not
18:54:39 <fizzie> whu?
19:05:00 <ZeroOne> "who?"?
19:06:07 <ZeroOne> someone called Chris 73 started the vote, if that's what you meant
19:06:30 <ZeroOne> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Esoteric_programming_language_related#Esoteric_programming_language_related I posted a great comment to the end of the page. yay!
19:09:52 <ZeroOne> fizzie: I'm talking to you!
19:10:56 <fizzie> eh, sorry.
19:11:38 <fizzie> was away.
19:16:24 <ZeroOne> oknevermind
22:54:52 <ZeroOne> is no one going to say/do anything about this?
22:55:10 <ZeroOne> that guy wants to destroy all that's good and pure
22:55:52 <ZeroOne> ->
22:55:56 <shapr> I don't mind if he gets it off of wikipedia
22:56:05 <shapr> won't stop me writing or reading bizarre languages
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