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00:17:30 <ehird> "You almost certainly have a virus and should reinstall your operating system."
00:17:30 <ehird> "Blaming that guy's link is a lot easier than reinstalling my OS."
00:17:30 <ehird> "So is jacking off in the USB port, but if there is a problem, neither of those things is going to fix it."
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01:09:11 <ehird> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10594014 THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER SHOUT ON THE INTERNET
01:19:21 <oerjan> sensible people avoid caps entirely, you know
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01:25:41 <ehird> I'LL POP A CAPITAL LETTER IN YO ASS
01:26:44 <ehird> typedef struct i{struct i*n;}i;i*h;push(i*i){i->n=h;h=i;}i*pop(){i*t;t=h;h=h->n;return t;}
01:26:49 <Sgeo> ehird, are you referring to the story of the woman who was fired for using capital letters?
01:27:38 <ehird> no, in reply to oerjan
01:27:40 <ehird> but indirectly, yes.
01:28:23 <ehird> Deewiant: stop commenting on reddit, you make my brain's look-at-reddit-names-and-pattern-match engine run
01:28:28 <ehird> it's computationally intensive
01:28:32 <ehird> and takes ages to quit
01:29:12 <oerjan> just like reddit's javascript
01:29:54 <ehird> oerjan: that would be IE's fault.
01:29:58 <ehird> protip: stop using IE
01:30:44 <ehird> <div class="clearleft"><!--IEsux--></div>
01:30:45 <ehird> ↑ THIS IS YOUR FAULT :-
01:30:49 <oerjan> i've mostly given up expanding loading comment subthreads with more than a handful of comments. although that is not _necessarily_ a bad thing.
01:32:06 * ehird stabs oerjan repeatedly with the Ancient Staff of http://www.google.com/chrome
01:33:10 <ehird> YOUR SPLANCH WILL HURT UNTIL YOU STOP EVERY PERSON WHO HAS EVER MADE ANYTHING FOR THE WEB HURTING
01:33:18 <ehird> ALSO ANYONE WHO HAS EVER READ ABOUT IE'S RENDERING MODEL
01:33:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splanch IS AN ODD THING TO HURT
01:33:56 <oerjan> indeed, it's actually an iwc reference
01:34:15 <ehird> I WAS THINKING THAT "SPLANCH" WAS A VEGETABLE IN NORWEIGAN OR SOMETHING
01:34:29 <ehird> NOW DO YOU WANT TO STOP HURTING OR NOT
01:34:31 <oerjan> no. norwegian uses very little c's.
01:34:37 <ehird> *YOUR SPLANCH TO STOP HURTING
01:34:51 <oerjan> as well as h's at the end of words
01:35:30 <oerjan> spinach is spinat, for example
01:36:06 <ehird> STOP TALKING YOU CANNOT TALK COHERENTLY BECAUSE I AM STABBING YOU
01:36:27 <oerjan> ok i will not be of the at in the future
01:37:02 <ehird> DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I AM STABBING YOU WITH? IT IS THE ANCIENT STAFF OF http://www.google.com/chrome
01:37:32 <oerjan> i summon GregorR to help me, as he is against all things chrome
01:37:54 <ehird> http://firefox.com/
01:38:02 <ehird> NOBODY IS AGAINST CUTE RED PANDAS
01:38:19 <GregorR> http://codu.org/chromates.jpg LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO ME
01:38:29 <ehird> GregorR: sorry, rub some firefox/red panda all over you
01:38:40 <ehird> also, why did I click that having seen it before?
01:39:05 <oerjan> i didn't click, remembering having been wise enough not to click it before
01:39:18 <ehird> BUT CLICKING http://firefox.com/ IS NEVER A BAD IDEA!
01:39:52 <ehird> IF YOU USE IE, SOME OF GREGOR'S JAVASCRIPT FUNTIMES LIKE THE CPU EMULATORS MIGHT NOT WORK!!!
01:39:57 <ehird> SURELY THAT WOULD CONVINCE ANYWONE
01:40:06 <oerjan> i shall have to hunt down and kill ehird in a painful way for his horrible strong opinions, now
01:40:23 <ehird> I kindly suggest that you try alternate browsers such as Google Chrome or Firefox!
01:40:39 <Sgeo> What about Konqueror or Epiphany?
01:40:58 <Sgeo> Or zzo's browser, Conqueror (I think)
01:41:04 <ehird> Sgeo: konqueror is shit
01:41:14 <ehird> and not really available for windows
01:41:19 <ehird> epiphany is only available for Gnome
01:41:23 <ehird> and uses WebKit anyway
01:41:37 <Sgeo> ehird, I'd still consider those alternate browsers
01:41:38 <ehird> Vonkeror is zzo's awful, awful modification of Conkeror, which is based on firefox but uses keyboard shortcuts
01:41:40 <ehird> instead of buttons
01:41:45 <ehird> Sgeo: you fail at reading.
01:42:56 <oerjan> my task, clearly, is to keep using awful solutions so as to help with ehird's anger therapy
01:42:59 <Sgeo> ehird, "such as" does not imply that the options you provided are the only options
01:43:27 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes; in addition, "alternate browsers" does not necessarily mean all alternate browsers.
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02:53:21 <ehird> "Researchers developing OLEDs as cheap as newspapers?"
02:53:23 <ehird> ^_^;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
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03:11:07 <ehird> Have you heard about JESUS?
03:11:34 <oerjan> you mean madonna's boyfriend?
03:11:48 <ehird> He is EVERYONE's boyfriend
03:11:51 <ehird> Because he LOVES EVERYONE
03:12:02 <oerjan> hm won't madonna be pissed about that
03:12:30 <ehird> no he's very polyamorous.
03:15:16 <oerjan> hm i must have imagined it, wikipedia's article on madonna does not contain the word "jesus"
03:15:49 <ehird> That's because the article for EVERY person would say Jesus!
03:16:40 <oerjan> he's briefly mentioned on the talk page though
03:26:47 * Sgeo suddenly realizes what the oldest files on his computer are likely to be
03:27:58 <ehird> http://www.b-list.org/weblog/2009/jan/03/meme/
03:28:02 <ehird> "There's a script for that"
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03:30:03 <Sgeo> I guess I can manually exclude OS files
03:30:06 <ehird> Apple should do all their ads in latin
03:30:08 <ehird> They'd be so much more fun
03:30:19 <Sgeo> Or would the OS files likely be when the system was reformatted and set up again?
03:30:33 <ehird> Stop asking questions. :P
03:30:48 <Sgeo> I'll try it tomorrow. The computer in question is currently off
03:31:43 <ehird> Anyone know what "I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC." is in Latin? :P
03:31:49 <Sgeo> Better would be if I found my disc that had favorites from before "chat" Crash
03:32:17 <Sgeo> ("chat" Crash == when I lost all information from my computer because I installed some chat server software, and my dad got paranoid and forced me to reformat)
03:32:44 <ehird> do you not have your own computer or sth
03:32:52 <ehird> oerjan: it's two separate lines
03:32:53 <Sgeo> ehird, this was from when I was much younger
03:33:00 <Sgeo> I believe it happened in 2002-2003
03:33:54 <Sgeo> Or perhaps earlier. I do believe there was definately a crash in 2002-2003. I learned of the FRC before the Chat Crash, and I was interested in the FRC in 2003
03:34:09 * oerjan assumes there is some special conjunction that should be used instead of "et"
03:34:22 <ehird> oerjan: would "Mac sum." "Et PC." preserve the spirit of the "and" from the original, though?
03:34:33 <Sgeo> There were no Crashes after August 2003. Knowing the oldest file would push the boundary earlier.
03:34:58 <oerjan> ehird: i don't really have a feel for latin _style_
03:35:04 <ehird> oerjan: You suck :P
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03:36:04 <Pthing> would be "i am a pc and a mac" surely
03:37:33 <Sgeo> I also have two disconnected HDs sitting around. I wonder what's on them.
03:39:01 <Sgeo> I.. seem to have misplaced one of them
03:39:33 <ehird> oerjan: Sorbeo? :(
03:40:32 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sorbeo#Latin
03:41:30 <Sgeo> At least one of these bookmarks dates to around 2003
03:42:26 <Sgeo> Um, when did I first enter #esoteric ?
03:42:55 <oerjan> In the olden days, when the world was new
03:43:49 <Sgeo> Huh. I have a bookmark labelled "NetHack 3.4.1"
03:43:57 <Sgeo> So it must date from before 3.4.2 was released
03:44:58 <ehird> Sgeo: Aren't you quite recent here
03:45:07 <Sgeo> ehird, I think so
03:45:11 <Sgeo> Don't know when
03:45:13 <ehird> I mean, like, after 2006
03:45:21 <Sgeo> I'd guess sometime after 2005
03:45:21 <ehird> I don't know if I was here when you first came
03:46:17 <ehird> I kinda wish I was a little less stupid around 2002-2003, because cool stuff seems to have happened then.
03:46:23 <ehird> That's just my weird sense of nostalgia talking, though.
03:48:29 <Sgeo> Firefox release dates don't help pinpoint an earlier bound
03:56:13 <Sgeo> I can't believe that this site is still paying for hosting/domain name/etc
03:56:16 <Sgeo> "You need IE 4.0 or higher to play it."
03:56:20 <Sgeo> http://www.1000ad.net/thegame/
03:56:25 <Sgeo> Copyright Ader Software 2000-2002
04:00:52 <ehird> http://www.1000ad.net/ is still sort of updated, so.
04:00:58 <ehird> (last updated 2007, although updates are very sparse)
04:01:12 <ehird> Domains cost like $10/yr, pair with autorenew and say, using it for email...
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04:48:20 <oerjan> dammit what is this /r/DoesAnybodyElse thing and how do they manage to spy on me
04:48:53 <oerjan> just came up on the default list today
04:49:08 <ehird> oerjan: that's automatic.
04:49:10 <oerjan> ehird: that was a joke
04:49:24 <ehird> important to be precise about these things
04:49:45 <oerjan> i do at least 3 of the top 10
04:53:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/DoesAnybodyElse/comments/9g0zj/dae_sometimes_stare_into_their_own_eyes_in_the/ ;; agh I do this
04:53:17 <ehird> it literally looks like a demon is coming out
04:53:26 <ehird> and some horrible black thing will appear next to me
04:55:02 <ehird> "DAE have a life that is better than prison or internment camps but you still wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy?"
04:57:43 * oerjan makes a note not to stare into the mirror
04:58:04 <ehird> oerjan: which were those no/yeses to
04:58:44 <oerjan> you've only listed two...
04:58:59 <ehird> oerjan: yes, but which do they correspond to, i mean i don't see you as the "woe is me" type :P
04:59:32 <oerjan> i have a very fluctuating mood
05:00:29 <oerjan> also i find it completely impossible to accept that suffering exists in the universe _at all_
05:00:36 <ehird> oerjan: you appear to be alive and browse reddit and IRC about, uhh, random stuff
05:00:45 <ehird> sounds like a pretty cushy life, relatively :P
05:00:59 <ehird> also, impossible to accept = tolerate or... believe
05:01:07 <ehird> because err it's pretty easy to come up with a counterexample :P
05:01:17 <ehird> oerjan: what if we killed all the unhappy people?
05:01:50 * Sgeo blows a gasket
05:01:59 <ehird> Sgeo: THIS CHANNEL IS PG-13
05:02:26 <HackEgo> * seal consisting of a ring for packing pistons or sealing a pipe joint \ [23]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * In sailing, gaskets are lengths of rope or fabric used to hold a stowed sail in place. In modern use, the term is usually restricted to square-rigged ships, the equivalent items on yachts being
05:03:00 <Sgeo> `define blow a gasket
05:03:01 <HackEgo> * To become very angry or upset \ [13]en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blow_a_gasket \
05:03:05 <oerjan> there we have it, a gasket is a seal
05:03:13 <oerjan> greenpeace will be very upset
05:03:16 <ehird> Someone probably shut a VR online game Sgeo played in 2003
05:04:32 <Sgeo> Well, that failed. Good night, all
05:04:57 <Sgeo> ehird, I was hoping that the person saying that The Guild S3 would be released midnight PDT was wrong
05:05:06 <ehird> Oh noooooooooooooooooo?
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05:45:09 <ehird> oklofok: you're redundant
05:47:50 <oklofok> i... couldn't disagree more
05:48:03 <oklofok> IN 13 MINUTES :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
05:48:05 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
05:48:07 <oklofok> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
05:48:09 <oklofok> :dDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
05:48:13 <oklofok> :dDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
05:48:19 <oklofok> i think it's a good thing.
05:48:44 <oklofok> or do you want to bask in the awesomeness too?
05:50:37 <oklofok> you're such a useless piece of pie
05:52:44 <ehird> oklofok: you're a bitch.
05:54:15 <oklofok> mmmmmmm automata theory, i'll probably start touching myself during the lecture
06:01:35 <ehird> oklofok: moneys are touching
06:01:42 <ehird> that is what you must not know
06:13:50 <ehird> doodle doodle i'm a poodle
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06:24:10 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
06:24:30 <ehirdium> "Received CTCP 'DCC CHAT chat 1077849409 10079' (to ehirdium) from EgoBot"
06:26:10 <coppro> !echo -rn "\r\nQUIT\r\n"
06:26:13 <coppro> `echo -rn "\r\nQUIT\r\n"
06:26:21 <ehirdium> coppro: Uhh, no, not going to work.
06:26:30 <coppro> I got EgoBot to quit before
06:26:50 <coppro> `sh echo -rn "\r\nQUIT\r\n"
06:27:07 <ehirdium> it uses a fucking capability-based security wrapper in a chroot
06:27:11 <ehirdium> you think it's not gonna handle lines?
06:27:22 <coppro> ehirdium: you never know
06:27:49 <ehirdium> anyhoo, I conclude adium is not quite an acceptable IRC client yet
06:27:50 -!- ehirdium has left (?).
06:29:15 <ehird> I want a key on my keyboard that is labelled "Ha! You referenced xkcd! You are clearly a funny, culturally relevant and intelligent person."
06:29:23 <ehird> It types itself, just like the letter keys. I find it is about as useful.
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06:37:25 <Rugxulo> *boo hiss* Bash 3.2 needed for Bashfunge :-P
06:37:50 <ehird> Dude, bash 4 is out.
06:37:58 <ehird> Why not retire to your cave where everything works with ancient software?
06:38:01 <Rugxulo> dude, I know ... what's your point? ;-)
06:38:08 <Rugxulo> yeah, 2002 is so ancient (sarcasm)
06:38:18 <ehird> Yes. Yes it is, in computing.
06:38:44 <Rugxulo> C++ 98? standard ... C99? standard
06:39:06 <ehird> Wherein Rugxulo compares the standards of huge languages with releases of a shell program.
06:39:26 <Rugxulo> a very very complicated shell program
06:39:40 <ehird> Yes, bash is very very complicated
06:39:53 <Rugxulo> have you looked at its guts? ugh ...
06:40:45 <ehird> RMS' eaten toe-pickings were!
06:40:56 <ehird> *RMS's. Trailing apostrophes are dumbtarded.
06:41:02 <Rugxulo> okay, just tried Bashfunge on Cygwin, seems to work okay
06:41:10 <ehird> Quick! Somebody break it!
06:41:50 <coppro> because if RMS was involved in coding bash, I have no need to look at it to know how awful it is
06:41:50 <Rugxulo> hey, anything implementing Befunge 93 is cool :-)
06:42:02 <Rugxulo> no, AFAIK, RMS never worked on Bash ;-)
06:42:23 <ehird> if (its (just_like (lisp), when_you (code_it_like_this)))
06:42:54 <Rugxulo> I wonder how Bash-centric Bashfunge is (e.g. would it work on other shells)
06:43:11 <ehird> Maybe zsh, but that's quite unlikely.
06:43:20 <ehird> (zsh is awesome, btw.)
06:43:54 <ehird> Um, almost certainly not.
06:44:43 <Rugxulo> and I thought you said "109" was the latest ... then why does Bashfunge say "Befunge08" ??
06:45:14 <ehird> (a) 109 isn't released yet and nobody else supports it, and
06:45:20 <ehird> (b) bashfunge is old. 08 is the old name of 108 and 109.
06:45:48 <ehird> Bashfunge is also too slow to do anything in, it takes something like half an hour to run Mycology.
06:45:58 <ehird> Run fungot on it, that'll be a laugh.
06:45:59 <fungot> ehird: i shall help also. we must now carry out his sentence. hold your horses! i want to dance! ladeedadeeda! got some spending so much of his time doing research on lavos. but you have it...determination, i mean...
06:46:06 <ehird> You can dance, fungot.
06:46:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
06:46:16 <Rugxulo> too slow? even on Core i7? (older is obsolete, upgrade now!!!)
06:46:50 <Rugxulo> anybody writing in Bash should expect a small performance decrease ;-)
06:46:54 <ehird> Surprisingly, a shiny new CPU with like 20% performance improvements does not alleviate the crippling slowness of bash and bashfunge.
06:47:09 <ehird> Rugxulo: also, if you do have a core i7, enjoy your non-ECC supporting platform.
06:47:31 <Rugxulo> ECC es fur wamps, I dun't neid et
06:47:44 * ehird flips some bits in Rugxulo's memory
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07:02:20 <Rugxulo> hmmm, Language-Befunge seems to hate Cygwin (or my install, at least) :-P
07:04:51 <Rugxulo> BTW, know of any Brainf*** interpreters in Befunge?
07:05:28 <ehird> Bashfuck, for one.
07:05:30 <ehird> It's rather trivial.
07:05:33 <ehird> Also, you can say fuck.
07:05:51 <Rugxulo> for unlawful carnal knowledge ... hooray for me ;-)
07:06:11 * Rugxulo sings, "Home grown, down home ..."
07:07:45 * ehird looks at his Miscellaneous Pile of Overly-Specific Certificates, finds no Certificate of Liking Terrible Music, leaves disappointed
07:08:40 <Rugxulo> found a Befunge98 one, wanted a 93 one :-/
07:09:01 <ehird> Oh, you said in Befunge.
07:09:08 <ehird> Rugxulo: Befunge93 is not TC.
07:09:30 <ehird> It cannot even do the 30,000 baseline cells that a lot of programs need and the original interpreter used.
07:09:57 <Rugxulo> but one good enough for "Hello world" and similarly simple stuff should be doable
07:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, was this the person you lied about cfunge a few days ago?
07:14:46 <ehird> Uhh, for some definition of "lie" equal to "things I disagree with because I wrote it".
07:14:54 <ehird> But, sure, evil commie lies, AnMaster.
07:15:31 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, but you are actually wrong. cfunge is currently the fastest one. And several people in here use it. fizzie for example for fungot
07:15:32 <fungot> AnMaster: cyrus! are you leaving! it's cyrus! run away for now!
07:15:42 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, one chat and ehird already hates me ;-)
07:15:43 <ehird> Umm, wrong about what?
07:15:51 <ehird> Did I ever deny that cfunge is the fastest interpreter?
07:15:56 <ehird> Did I ever deny that several people in here hate it?
07:16:03 <ehird> (Rugxulo: Did I ever say that I hate you?)
07:16:20 <AnMaster> for the line "several people in here"
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07:16:49 <ehird> And I never claimed any of those things false, so uhh, I don't see what the hell you're trying to say other than "stop saying cfunge is bad, meanie".
07:17:01 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, anyway, about cygwin: I don't have windows handy to test with. But cygwin is your best bet for cfunge if you need to use it on windows
07:17:26 <Rugxulo> ehird, you said (and I'm almost quoting verbatim), "Eww, you use old software, Emacs, and Windows ... can I stab you?"
07:17:43 <ehird> No, that is not "almost verbatim"
07:17:46 <ehird> And yep, I was totally serious about stabbing you
07:17:49 <Rugxulo> yeah, I'm sure you meant that in a loving way ;-)
07:17:57 <ehird> I want to actually be wherever you are and stab you so that you bleed.
07:17:58 <Rugxulo> the lovey-dovey kind of stab, y'know
07:18:00 <ehird> And die. That is what I think
07:18:04 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I remember that basic things like getting environment variables didn't just work as expected under windows :/
07:18:21 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well that is worth a try as I said
07:19:09 <ehird> I highly doubt cfunge will work on cygwin.
07:19:34 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, if it lacks mmap() you could rewrite the file loading part to use getc() or something. I use mmap() because it is faster (I profiled) and easier as well
07:20:36 <AnMaster> the build system would need a prod to not error out when mmap() is missing as well, but that would be as trivial as commenting out a line or two in CMakeLists.txt
07:21:15 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, but I guess cygwin *does* have mmap() right?
07:22:09 <Rugxulo> BTW, found another "Brainf*** in Befunge"
07:22:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, why are you stuck on windows though? Hardware issues?
07:23:51 <Rugxulo> sorta ... none of the *nixes I tried really worked too well (not that Windows is perfect, though)
07:23:52 <ehird> AnMaster: he likes it
07:24:00 <ehird> or at least that's what he said yesterday
07:24:01 <Rugxulo> no, I like DOS, I tolerate Windows
07:24:47 <Rugxulo> (hmmm, that Brainf***-in-Befunge may need "arbitrary bignums in the stack")
07:25:00 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, so you want no memory protection, a pain to use memory above 640K, ...?
07:25:26 <ehird> I don't know what Brainf*** requires
07:25:32 <ehird> But I know that Brainfuck normally uses 8-bit cells
07:25:34 <ehird> with an unbounded tape
07:25:51 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, DPMI -> DJGPP = works!
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07:26:04 <AnMaster> 93: 8 bit playfield, 32 bit stack cells iirc
07:26:06 <ehird> Only Funge-98 has provisions for bignum cells, and even then only awkwardly.
07:26:30 <AnMaster> and yes there is one bignum one at least
07:26:41 <ehird> You just mentioned that because you wrote it.
07:26:47 <AnMaster> try my efunge, needs erlang installed. Should probably work under windows. But I never tried it
07:27:19 <ehird> aand predictable as clockwork
07:27:53 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, that was a question: "what is that"?
07:28:05 <fizzie> It's the protected-mode-in-DOS thing.
07:28:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it something you load with that config.sys thingy?
07:28:34 <Rugxulo> yeah, standard stuff, works in OS/2 2+, Win 3+, DOS w/ extender, etc.
07:29:15 <fizzie> Or DOS/4GW, which I think is what Watcom's compilers used.
07:29:15 <AnMaster> I used mac before I changed to xp for a few years, then to linux
07:29:27 <AnMaster> so I have like no contact ever with dos world ;P
07:29:54 <Rugxulo> Wolfenstein 3D = 16-bit Borland C
07:30:01 <Rugxulo> Doom 1 & 2 = 32-bit Watcom C
07:30:45 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, not portable between compilers even? ;P
07:30:45 <Rugxulo> ever heard of Ardi's Executor (Mac emulator)?
07:30:56 <Rugxulo> DPMI isn't related to compilers, it's an API
07:31:32 <Rugxulo> http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/dpmi/
07:32:52 <AnMaster> this would have been more interesting if I had any nostalgia about DOS ;P
07:33:02 <Rugxulo> but no, typically most (non-DJGPP) apps were never written for DPMI "only", they expected the unofficial, undocumented 32-bit int 21h extensions
07:33:10 <Rugxulo> (partially supported by some Watcom extenders)
07:33:23 <Rugxulo> I know I know, if you never were familiar with DOS, it wouldn't matter
07:33:31 <Rugxulo> just trust me, it works, Quake 1 sold fine ;-)
07:33:49 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, ok. Tell me when you have a 64-bit extender for it ;P
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07:34:01 <Rugxulo> DOSEMU works on x86-64, that's as close as you can get
07:34:24 <Rugxulo> runs *almost* native speed (due to no V86 mode has to emulate a very small portion)
07:34:37 <fizzie> You can't say that whole skedaddle with a real-mode operating system and protected-mode applications was exactly *elegant*, no matter how well it might've worked.
07:34:46 <Rugxulo> DJGPP is extremely elegant
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07:34:58 <Rugxulo> no worse than using GCC on Linux
07:35:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, you mean fork() { errno = ENOTIMPLEMENTED; return; }
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07:35:24 <AnMaster> (which will break at least parts of cfunge btw)
07:35:27 <Rugxulo> fork is not implemented because most DOSes (and compatibles) don't support it
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07:35:41 <ehird> it would be nice if my IRC client didn't crash
07:35:47 <ehird> as I was going to say
07:35:50 <Rugxulo> EMX/RSX (whole other extender + DPMI) emulates fork, though, but DJGPP is miles better in most other ways
07:36:01 <ehird> Rugxulo: DJGPP isn't elegant at all...
07:36:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Thank you, I care deeply
07:36:09 <ehird> about your IRC client
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07:36:28 <AnMaster> well I use two ones: xchat and ERC
07:36:41 <Rugxulo> Novell (DR-)DOS 7 supports multitasking, but nobody ever bothered writing anything for it
07:36:46 <ehird> AnMaster! Tell me more about all your IRC clients!
07:36:58 <ehird> I'm so interested in what IRC client you use and how you use it. Tell me a story about your IRC client!
07:37:10 <ehird> In fact, I'd like you to do that every time I mention my IRC client. Oh wait, you do...
07:37:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you haven't slept tonight right?
07:38:01 <ehird> What on earth has my absolute boredom with you continually mentioning your <program> and how awesome it is whenever mine does something displeasing got to do with that?
07:38:09 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, I don't expect it to matter, but DJGPP does have latest ports of VIM, Emacs, GCC (though not Bash)
07:38:09 <ehird> It's irritating. Stop it.
07:38:35 <fizzie> "Once upon a time, in an IRC client far, far away..."
07:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and you get so very anti-social when you didn't sleep
07:39:01 <ehird> One thing I like about my IRC client: It has a feature that lets people stop talk to me without having to have it solely in dreams.
07:39:14 <ehird> AnMaster: actually, you just like coming up with excuses whenever I dislike you.
07:39:19 <AnMaster> sure, my clients have /ignore too
07:39:25 <ehird> I remember when you implied that me using Linux instead of OS X made me nicer...
07:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I would say the reverse
07:39:48 <AnMaster> maybe the effect wore off if you are using linux now
07:40:05 <ehird> Ladies 'n gents, AnMaster thinks what OS I am currently using to talk on IRC is directly related to whether I'm kind or not.
07:40:11 <ehird> Please welcome this master of self-delusion.
07:40:49 <AnMaster> you get quite.... self-delusional... yourself when you didn't sleep
07:41:26 <ehird> ...you just directly stated that and now you're denying it?
07:42:21 <ehird> Or perhaps he's just using "I don't like what you're saying" as a catch-all disproof of everything I've said, regardless of whether he said it first or not... The mind boggles.
07:44:24 <Rugxulo> mind boggles or boggles the mind? ^_^
07:44:40 * Rugxulo wonders if you can write a Boggle clone in Befunge ... heh j/k
07:45:37 <AnMaster> what I tried to write was "Boggle"?
07:45:47 <AnMaster> but somehow my space key locked up
07:45:55 <ehird> Other /ignores AnMaster has executed recently: /ignore Google
07:47:57 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, so you use Linux and/or OS X?
07:48:08 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD
07:48:40 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, Gentoo, Arch and currently also Ubuntu on laptop (because there I need things to just work)
07:48:45 <Rugxulo> and BTW, have you heard of shasm/osimplay? ;-)
07:48:57 <AnMaster> shasm/osimplay <-- no clue what that is
07:49:25 <Rugxulo> (Forth-ish x86 assembler written in Bash)
07:49:35 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, there was some bashforth I remember
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07:55:58 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, have you programmed in Forth before?
07:56:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, no, I haven't really had time to learn it, and currently I don't expect to have it soon either, what with just having started at university
07:58:34 <Rugxulo> that might explain the lack of DOS nostalgia ;-)
07:59:12 * Rugxulo regales everyone about ye olden days of GCC 2.7.2.1
07:59:25 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and I used redhat 5.0 ;P
07:59:30 <Rugxulo> it's not like I'm super old either, only just turned 30 ;-)
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08:01:01 <fizzie> Some would just say 65*.
08:01:20 <fizzie> But what would Deewiant's constant-builder say?
08:01:57 <fizzie> A funge-98 programmer would probably say 3a*.
08:02:17 <fizzie> Anyway, from the viewpoint of the channel, 30 sounds quite ancient.
08:02:31 <fizzie> Isn't that, like, a bit before death?
08:02:54 <fizzie> I have no idea about oerjan's age, I assume it is considerable.
08:03:16 <ehird> oerjan is like 38.
08:03:26 <fizzie> Seen the stars born and so on.
08:03:32 <ehird> nescience is 39 iirc, or at least I asked if he was like 40 and he said something along the lines of almost
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08:03:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, are you suggesting he _is_ a great old one?
08:03:53 <ehird> fizzie: aren't you like 30-something, I remember someoneorother saying that, though they could just be bullshitting me
08:04:09 <ehird> [08:03] ehird: nescience is 39 iirc, or at least I asked if he was like 40 and he said something along the lines of almost
08:04:10 <ehird> ↑ i meant mycroftiv, not nescience
08:04:12 <fizzie> ehird: I guess it depends on your rounding mode, 26 nowadays.
08:04:16 <AnMaster> what the hell happened to wxmaxima after updating it....
08:04:32 <ehird> fizzie: you're like a bit before a bit before death!
08:04:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, interface completely changed
08:05:07 <ehird> An interface being redefined?
08:05:08 <AnMaster> also of course I keep things up-to-date. It is painless usually on linux
08:05:38 <ehird> Rugxulo: what he's trying to say is "You use Windows and I disapprove of this"
08:05:41 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well on gentoo it is just tedious. But often more painless than binary distros. :P
08:05:49 <ehird> facts don't really enter into it
08:07:11 <Rugxulo> it's all the same hardware, so in theory any OS can do anything
08:07:13 <AnMaster> also the line editing history feature is gone... meh
08:07:49 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, since gentoo compiles packages from source when you install them, ABI breakages tends to hurt less... just recompile affected packages.
08:08:08 <AnMaster> instead of being rather complex like on many other distros
08:08:13 <Rugxulo> er, I wouldn't call it easy ... even if automatic, too many things can go wrong
08:08:24 <Rugxulo> if it works well, 100% of the credit goes to the script maintainers
08:08:38 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, in my experience those things doesn't go wrong. And yes credit goes to the portage maintainers
08:09:02 <AnMaster> (portage = the package manager, ebuilds = the build scripts)
08:09:53 <AnMaster> ok I think I can get used to this new interface. In fact parts of it is cool. Just I miss shell style line editing and history
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08:47:07 <ehird> [[symbolics.com, the first domain name ever registered, has been bought by a "real estate and domain investment company."]]
08:47:26 <ehird> Symbolics.com Was The FIRST Registered Domain Name!
08:47:26 <ehird> —http://www.symbolics.com/, "Symbolics: It all started here".
08:47:44 <ehird> You shouldn't have done that, David K Schmidt.
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08:48:54 <ehird> You are a bad person.
08:49:19 <ehird> Your actions are bad and you should feel bad.
08:50:03 <Rugxulo> ehird, so tell us how you really feel, don't be shy ;-)
08:50:11 <ehird> Amusingly it isn't even the oldest domain, just the oldest .com and the oldest still-registered domain.
08:50:15 <ehird> Rugxulo: He did a bad thing! :P
08:50:36 <Rugxulo> (singing) "David did a bad bad thing" (ba dum da dum de dum de dum)
08:51:15 <ehird> http://cgi.ebay.com/SYMBOLICS-DOMAIN-NAME-TEL-SEXY-HOT-MATURE-RARE-LOGO_W0QQitemZ220437152045QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item335314012d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_11186wt_1167
08:51:15 <ehird> Wow! For only $21,000,000 I can buy symbolics.tel with free shipping! It even has a picture of Bama!
08:51:51 <Rugxulo> in fairness, it IS sexy, hot, and mature ;-)
08:52:37 <ehird> Also, when the seller's name, 10qvrymuch, is pronounced quickly, it sounds like the pronunciation of "thank you very much"! WILL THE WONDERS EVER CEASE?????????
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09:19:51 <ehird> oklofok: i have determined that you do not exist.
09:23:38 <ehird> Toli Toli Toli Toli Toli
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09:41:50 <fizzie> ehird: That reminds me of a quote: https://pastee.org/gf9w2
09:42:17 <ehird> Did I really need to click that link to be reminded of a famous h2g2 quote? :P
09:43:46 <fizzie> It's not like the quotes have unique identifiers I could use to refer to them.
09:44:32 <fizzie> I think the Finnish translation has the vanishing bit formatted as (retranslating back to English literally) "vanishes like an irrational fart in the Sahara of logic".
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10:18:51 <ehird> thought: domain names are probably economically unscarce
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10:28:54 <ehird> So, in case anyone thought rms has ever been sane, here's what he said when Symbolics corporation told him to stop reading their code and rewriting features from it:
10:28:56 <ehird> [["I definitely did have fantasies of killing myself and destroying their building in the process," Stallman says. "I thought my life was over."]]
10:30:29 <ehird> [["I started crying right there in the equipment room," he says. "Seeing the machine there, dead, with nobody left to fix it, it all drove home how completely my community had been destroyed."]]
10:30:39 <ehird> It's cringeworthy even to read this.
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10:34:59 <fizzie> Does rms nowadays use passwords, I wonder.
10:36:25 <ehird> Heh, almost certainly.
10:36:36 <ehird> Well, maybe not on his laptop.
10:36:43 <ehird> Probably on his server accounts.
10:37:27 <ehird> He's a fool, incidentally.
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10:56:31 <fizzie> ehird was quoting few bits, probably from http://oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch07.html I guess.
10:56:51 <ehird> Another copy of that, but yeah.
10:57:14 <ehird> Probably AnMaster will now chastise you for not prefixing that with "ehird:"; he's done that before when ignoring me, at least.
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13:09:19 <ehird> oklopol: so why are you still pretending like you exist
13:20:39 <ehird> there should be buskers with laptops
13:20:45 <ehird> making electronic music with a laptop case open for money
13:20:54 <ehird> or perhaps with overdriven electric guitars
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13:30:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: But what would Jesus say!?
13:30:44 <fizzie> I doubt the Bible addresses Befunge constants at all. :/
13:31:31 <ehird> It's such a useless book
13:32:03 <ehird> Deewiant: What does it say for "befunge" (base 26)?
13:32:22 <Deewiant> I don't know, tell me what "befunge" is in base 26
13:32:48 <Deewiant> It only takes base 10 as input :-P
13:32:59 <ehird> But that's so much work!
13:37:32 <Deewiant> If it's that; 4548*+1348**+56898::**+**+*** or 4548*+1c8*+d555558*****+*** or 4"%a5N"5'@**+***
13:47:59 <ehird> I think I prefer the or :P
13:48:46 <ehird> Sigh, another Luddite dualist idiot peddles his unscientific doomsday view on AI in a popsci publication. What else is new.
13:49:27 <Deewiant> If I had some kind of linear encoding which knew about commutativity that last one could be a character shorter
13:51:33 <ehird> How to produce strong AI: Keep having babies until evolution gets bored and spits out an intelligent, self-improving computer
13:51:43 <ehird> I am sure this will work.
13:52:24 <Deewiant> That presupposes two rather unlikely states
13:52:51 <Deewiant> Firstly that evolution can get bored, and secondly that it'll do that if it does
13:53:12 <fizzie> Deewiant: Is there a reason for 4"%a5N"5'@**+*** over 4"%a5N@"5**+*** then?
13:53:29 <ehird> Deewiant: If you adopt a sufficiently warped view of what genes can do it has a probability of 1, assuming you're immortal
13:53:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Like said, I don't have a linear encoding which knows about commutativity.
13:53:55 <Deewiant> It goes straight from binary-treeish AST to string
13:54:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Without a sufficiently warped view, you'll just get a baby that immediately flies over to a computer and types out a strong, self-improving AI within hours.
13:54:29 <Deewiant> ehird: Also assuming a universe that exists forever
13:54:42 <ehird> Deewiant: That is kind of implied by a thing being immortal.
13:54:43 <Deewiant> Although I guess true "immortality" assumes that.
13:55:07 <Deewiant> I don't know, arguably "immortal" could also mean being able to live as long as the surrounding universe.
13:56:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: So it just generates a Mul (Push 5) (Push 64) and the reason it becomes 5'@ instead of '@5 is that the left branch is output first.
13:56:22 <ehird> All finns: do you guys have obnoxious companies trying to "cut down" on piracy by taking all means necessary against your internet connection?
13:56:25 <Deewiant> Trying all possible branching orders may or may not be feasible, I'm not sure how fast that grows.
13:56:43 <ehird> Deewiant: exponentially, no?
13:57:53 <ehird> Hey, apparently this exchange has ADSL2+ or something? Well, one company at least thinks it does.
13:58:00 <ehird> Others don't though.
13:58:21 <ehird> Apparently the max here is 19.8 megabit, which beats the 6 mbit I'm getting
13:58:48 <Deewiant> As for companies like that; not to my knowledge; there's mainly the local CISAC member, Teosto
13:59:17 <ehird> All finns: Any nasty industry-standard internet censorship or deep packet inspection?
14:01:13 <Deewiant> A bit of blacklist censorship done by most ISPs; intended to be vs. child porn but there's also some other stuff (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsiporno.info)
14:01:43 <ehird> Sounds like what we have here; "child porn" which includes that old album cover, oh and "race hate material" and the like
14:01:50 <ehird> Next week, "record industry hate material"
14:02:00 <Deewiant> "1047 censored websites" "nine were unrelated to pornography, 28 had content hard to categorize as legal or illegal, 46 were (legal) child modeling sites and 879 contained only legal pornography"
14:02:21 <Deewiant> Oh and "nine of the sites contained child pornography"
14:02:23 <ehird> Doesn't seem to be many providers using the list
14:02:30 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapsiporno.info#Status_of_lapsiporno.info_with_Finnish_Internet_service_providers
14:02:35 <Deewiant> And Elisa must've been a recent change
14:02:41 <ehird> Well, Nebula is the fast one fizzie uses iirc
14:02:42 <Deewiant> Since lapsiporno.info was blocked last I checked
14:02:47 <fizzie> Elisa was very recent.
14:03:01 <ehird> wait, they blocked a site about it?
14:03:09 <Deewiant> Anyway, if Elisa were still blocked then that'd have Elisa + Welho which are over 50%
14:03:21 <fizzie> Yes, because the site published links that were on the list.
14:03:22 <ehird> Any deep packet inspection, though?
14:03:30 <Deewiant> But then, how would I know ;-)
14:03:49 <ehird> All finns: What's a good way to learn Finnish, and how do I learn to like saunas?
14:04:18 <ehird> That question might have been a little bit joking, so to speak.
14:04:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: Citation for the reason? Well, I think that was the official reason, anyway. The site doesn't seem to answer right now.
14:05:58 <fizzie> Ah. Well, that was actually the date for when lapsiporno.info got a note about it. I assume the unblocking came first, don't know the exact date.
14:06:06 <ehird> Hmm, right, Nebula was that one that was great apart from the speed being rather unimpressive
14:06:15 <ehird> Well, I guess Ask! is a nice price for 100mbit both ways
14:06:49 <fizzie> It's "unimpressive" in the sense that it's what you get with ADSL-based technologies; I dislike the rather high price more.
14:07:48 <ehird> Well, right, I meant the price/speed ratio.
14:07:56 <fizzie> Yes, that's a bit unimpressive.
14:08:08 <ehird> Isn't Welho that 100mbit dumbpeople one?
14:08:33 <ehird> You guys seem to have the perfect internet connection, just it's scattered across a bunch of subscriptions :P
14:08:33 <fizzie> I, uh, well, not all Welho users are that dumb, I mean...
14:09:01 <ehird> They don't support IPv6 or err custom DNS or something
14:09:04 <ehird> Therefore dumbpeople
14:09:12 <ehird> Also they, like, advertise TV services
14:09:19 <ehird> And their site is ugly
14:09:20 <fizzie> It's a cable TV company, so..
14:09:20 <Deewiant> Who needs IPv6 when you can download at 110 Mbps
14:09:40 <ehird> Deewiant: But they use the blacklist too :P
14:10:07 <ehird> Morally unacceptable
14:10:15 <ehird> I don't notice the CCTV cameras around here either
14:10:24 <fizzie> Nebula's selling the "bond two ADSL2+ annex M lines together to get a 48/6M link" service, which is speedy enough, but it's a frigging 150 eur/month.
14:10:27 <Deewiant> I can understand blocking child porn
14:10:49 <ehird> I don't believe in censorship, especially when it involves looking at my packets
14:11:14 <ehird> Internet service is paying them to give you a hole in the wall with bandwidth, any crimes are your responsibility
14:11:19 <Deewiant> It's kind of impossible without looking at packets :-P
14:11:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Which makes it unacceptable
14:11:39 <Deewiant> But they have to look at your packets anyway in order to be able to route them
14:11:46 <fizzie> Maybe if you'd just look at the evil-bit-set packets.
14:11:48 <ehird> fizzie: It's way too expensive for those speeds, indeed
14:12:37 <ehird> elisa.com is a rather bad site, it lists all the broadband products only with a short summary
14:13:09 <ehird> And your bad telecom company websites
14:13:12 <Deewiant> Go to the Finnish site for more info :-P
14:13:12 <ehird> How do you sleep at night
14:13:15 <Deewiant> http://www.elisa.fi/yksityisille/laajakaista/laajakaista/tekniset_tiedot/
14:13:34 <ehird> To be fair, there wasn't a link to the Finnish site.
14:13:58 <ehird> Well, I didn't notice it :P
14:14:01 <Deewiant> www.elisa.com -> bottom of page "Suomeksi"
14:14:27 <Deewiant> Well, you can't expect to find the link if you don't speak Finnish
14:14:28 <ehird> Can't be fibr-optic
14:14:36 <ehird> So that must be some hefty ADSL
14:14:44 <ehird> Or, it's fibre-optic but they rate limited the upload
14:14:54 <ehird> Number of computers in use as early
14:15:00 <ehird> Is that a limit on how many computers you can use with it?
14:15:14 <ehird> It comes with five dynamic IPs.
14:15:28 <ehird> That's rather pointless with IPv4
14:15:30 <fizzie> "Five dynamic IPs" seems to be the de-facto "standard" around here.
14:15:42 <ehird> I've never seen more than one dynamic IP
14:17:05 <fizzie> Anyway, the "super" thing is for.. er, building-owners, to be resold to actual people-living-there; and it goes to 100M/10M only when the house in question has suitable Ethernet cabling.
14:17:27 <fizzie> It's 24M/1M for phone-cabling-only places.
14:18:54 <ehird> Reminds me of MizardX's weird click-to-switch-broadband thing.
14:19:33 <fizzie> I guess it's 1 Gbps fibre to the basement in any case. And they're only selling it (in case of existing buildings) to buildings with at least 20 apartments in them.
14:21:37 <ehird> Maybe the Swedish internet situation is better, I seem to hear a lot of good interweb thingies from there.
14:21:45 <ehird> Well, also Norway. They have a lot of fibre.
14:22:16 <fizzie> Welho's 110M/5M is probably the widestly-available fast-enough connection, and that's just because large parts of the capital-city area is in their cable TV network.
14:23:25 <fizzie> I can't seem to find any sort of comprehensive list for where Elisa's 100M/10M thing is available, just the "put your address here and we'll tell you" thing.
14:23:34 <ehird> Deewiant: But even fantasy-head-moving because of just internet would be unacceptable without taking the time to fantasy-head-move to somewhere with a decent political system :p
14:24:17 <ehird> You European social democracies collect political parties like Pokemon.
14:24:21 <ehird> How many are there now, 152?
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14:33:44 <fizzie> If you're still speaking of Finland, we only have 15 currently registered political parties. A total sum of everything in Europe would be quite a lot, I guess.
14:33:59 <ehird> I was joking; 152 = initial pokemon + 1.
14:34:13 <ehird> Doesn't Sweden have like 17 with seats?
14:34:36 <fizzie> Don't know; we have 8 of those.
14:34:54 <ehird> Meanwhile, in the world where everything is backwards: "SSDs are best for sequential writes and HDDs are best for random writes."
14:35:50 <fizzie> Their Parliament is bigger; 349 seats, compared to our 200. You can fit more parties in there.
14:35:55 <fizzie> I'm sure their building is also bigger.
14:36:13 <ehird> Yes. They can fit bigger people because their seats are bigger because their building is bigger.
14:36:17 <fizzie> Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Riksdagen-fran-vattnet-2004-05-09.jpg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eduskuntatalo_(Finnish_Parliament_building).JPG
14:36:20 <ehird> This helps because Swedish people are bigger.
14:36:39 <ehird> fizzie: I didn't know Finland was located in Ancient Greece!
14:36:49 <fizzie> It's a little-known fact.
14:37:04 <ehird> Many people do not know that.
14:38:52 <ehird> Meanwhile: http://buttersafe.com/comics/2009-09-01-theevilplan.jpg
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14:39:11 <fizzie> I guess they're using that picture, as it's more imposing; Wikipedia does have one which shows the complete structure -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Parliament_House_of_Finland.jpg -- but in that one it's not so impressive.
14:39:28 <ehird> Maxisat? More like
14:39:31 <ehird> Marxisat? More like
14:39:43 <ehird> Karl Marx? More like
14:39:54 <fizzie> They do IPTV things, actually.
14:40:15 <fizzie> Oh, and sell broadband internet. :p
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15:02:55 <ehird> I wish I had some Haskell to code :P
15:05:23 <Deewiant> There's plenty of Haskell in the world
15:06:10 <fizzie> The phrase "I can has kell" popped into my mind.
15:07:09 <ehird> Deewiant: That is true
15:07:18 <ehird> What's that got to do with wanting to write something that haskell would fit nicely
15:07:35 <Deewiant> It means there's plenty of stuff to hack on if that's what you want to do
15:08:38 <ehird> Deewiant: It's icky practical software by Other People Who Are Bad Coders. :P
15:09:08 <Deewiant> I take it the "who are bad coders" comes by default since it's "other people"?
15:12:24 <Deewiant> That attitude does limit your options somewhat
15:12:57 <Deewiant> I was going to suggest improving my fungifier but you can also code a better one from scratch, if you want; it's fairly short
15:13:16 <ehird> i'd just end up bruteforcing i
15:13:22 <ehird> i don't think there's an eleganty algo to do it
15:13:26 <Deewiant> You can do that too, if it ends up fast enough :-P
15:13:39 <ehird> alas i cannot transcend the laws of physisc
15:16:11 <ehird> Slereah: sweet, gimme my infinity machine
15:16:28 <Deewiant> ehird: So you want not only some Haskell, but some Haskell that implements an elegant algorithm? :-P
15:16:44 <ehird> well the task is boring in itself imo
15:17:07 <ehird> it's pretty much factoring + subtract and factor
15:18:32 <Slereah> Feeling a bit lazy right no
15:18:44 <Deewiant> Newsflash: most tasks are boring especially when summarized in a single sentence :-P
15:19:03 <ehird> well that's a perfectly passable algo really
15:19:56 <ehird> 1234 → (for base 10) 2*(1+(8*7*(1+(2*5))))
15:20:13 <ehird> admittedly not exceedingly good
15:20:39 <ehird> but if 5 words, one being "+", can describe a half-passable algorithm it's probably just a boring hill-climb with slightly better and better heuristics
15:21:31 <Deewiant> That's better than what my current one gets allowing only decimals
15:23:15 <ehird> Deewiant: Gimme a number yours does well on and I'll give it a crack with my uber-tedious algo
15:23:20 <ehird> Also, trivial optimisation of mine:
15:23:49 <Deewiant> I don't know, what's "well" :-P
15:24:30 <ehird> Deewiant: Shortly?
15:24:32 <ehird> Just gimme a number :P
15:25:42 <ehird> 3*(1+(2*5))*(1+(2*2*2*3*(1+(2*2*2*3*3))))
15:25:44 <ehird> trivial reduction:
15:25:54 <ehird> 3*(1+(2*5))*(1+(8**3*(1+(8*9))))
15:26:05 <fizzie> 57*:*9+ with some Human Ingenuity, which no computar in the world can match.
15:26:21 <ehird> 89*1+83*1+25*1+3**
15:26:30 <ehird> trivially simplify:
15:27:02 <ehird> I've got a trailing * there
15:28:01 <ehird> 89*1+83**1+25*1+*3*
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15:29:10 <ehird> Deewiant: what does yours give?
15:29:25 <fizzie> The square-root finding I did manually might even make sense.
15:29:27 <ehird> fizzie: remember that this algo is four words and a symbol :P
15:29:37 <ehird> just saying that the problem is kinda trivial
15:29:53 <ehird> Eh, so I reduced wrong at some point
15:29:56 <Deewiant> Mine gives 392+13898:*+**+** using decimals
15:29:59 <ehird> I'm tired; what to do is obvious
15:30:12 <oklopol> it's not a trivial problem just because it can't be solved
15:30:17 <ehird> Deewiant: So shorter than my initial one just by a char
15:30:41 <ehird> Kinda yawnsville, yah?
15:31:40 <fizzie> I wouldn't call it trivial, anyway. I'm sure it gets really quite interesting when the numbers are large enough that loops start to make sense.
15:31:42 <Asztal> Deewiant: is yours doing something with prime factors?
15:32:10 <Asztal> but what does it do when it gets to 1753?
15:32:19 <ehird> For mine, it subtracts one and refactors
15:32:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Give me a large number
15:32:39 <Deewiant> ehird: 8119824918791285132865191
15:32:46 <ehird> Oh you just hate me.
15:32:50 <ehird> I haven't automated this you know.
15:32:58 <Deewiant> Split it in half until it's small enough :-P
15:33:03 <ehird> Heh, it reduces to a whole bunch of 2*2*2*2* with factor(1)
15:33:11 <ehird> Then 23, then 54798378614461
15:33:23 <ehird> Just take the easy way out, why don'tcha
15:33:30 <ehird> oklopol: factor unix program
15:33:40 <Deewiant> Asztal: Mine grabs the one with most factors that it can subtract to
15:33:43 <oklopol> i thought you said 2 is a factor of 8119824918791285132865191
15:33:48 <Deewiant> In the hopes that those are easier to reduce
15:33:53 <ehird> It is, just not a prime factor :P
15:34:09 <ehird> wait, is factor(1) broken?
15:34:12 <Deewiant> The number is odd so 2 can't be a factor of it
15:34:14 <fizzie> Your factor(1) must be pretty strange then.
15:34:15 <ehird> i am barely awake here btw
15:34:20 <ehird> fizzie: maybe overflow
15:34:20 <oklopol> i wish there was like an ignore that ignored ehird when there's math being talked about
15:34:29 <fizzie> Mine just says: factor: `8119824918791285132865191' is too large
15:34:30 <Deewiant> Some factor(1)s don't support bigger than machine-sized ints
15:34:36 <Deewiant> Mine says: 8119824918791285132865191: 13960227797 581639858379403
15:35:07 <ehird> 8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*6*23*54798378614461 certainly = 8119824918791285132865191
15:35:20 <ehird> it looks like it does
15:35:26 <ehird> but then goes and diverges on yo ass
15:35:29 <ehird> damn you factor(1)
15:35:37 <ehird> let me install gnu factor or something
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15:42:37 <ehird> To fully converting it
15:44:25 <ehird> (1+(2*2*(1+(2*2*(1+(2*2*3*3))))*(1+(2*(1+(2*5*5*5))))*(1+(2*3*3*(1+(2*2*3))*(1+(2*3*3*(1+(2*5))))))))*(1+(2*3*(1+(2*2*(1+(2*3*(1+(2*(1+(2*5))))))))*(1+(2*3*3*5*7))*(1+(2*3*(1+(2*2*(1+(2*3*3*3*3))))))*(1+(2*7*(1+(2*5))*(1+(2*2*2*3*(1+(2*3*3))))))))
15:45:44 <ehird> (1+(4*(1+(4*(1+(4*9))))*(1+(2*(1+(2*5*5*5))))*(1+(2*9*(1+(4*3))*(1+(2*9*(1+(2*5))))))))*(1+(2*3*(1+(4*(1+(6*(1+(2*(1+(2*5))))))))*(1+(2*9*5*7))*(1+(6*(1+(4*(1+(6*9*3))))))*(1+(2*7*(1+(2*5))*(1+(4*6*(1+(2*9))))))))
15:45:51 <ehird> Deewiant: You can RPN that yourself :P
15:45:53 <ehird> What does yours output?
15:46:12 <Deewiant> 68888888888728*+145994+75838:*+**+76599458**+2379**+****+*****+************
15:46:32 <oklopol> would be easier to just write it in say base 9
15:46:39 <oklopol> would be shorter than Deewiant's too
15:46:43 <Deewiant> '08'@"@@@"f8+'½8';"@SZ@"*+"¿0@e"**+****+*******, the latin-1, is much nicer
15:46:53 <ehird> Removing parens (that'll be how long it is in RPN) gives 125 for mine, 75 for yours
15:47:11 <ehird> Pretty funny how well a 4 words+symbol algo is doing against your long prog :P
15:47:29 <oklopol> funny how the trivial solution is better than either of yours
15:47:47 <Deewiant> My long prog generalizes to a bunch of stuff
15:47:48 <oklopol> maybe because it's a trivial problem
15:48:06 <ehird> oklopol: which trivial solution
15:48:11 <ehird> Deewiant: True, still
15:48:17 <oklopol> Deewiant: i'm just angry at internet, and tired enough to project.
15:48:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I can think of a bunch of brute-force improvements to mine
15:48:19 <Deewiant> And it isn't that long, either
15:48:22 <ehird> e.g. subtract a variable amount
15:48:37 <Deewiant> Sure, bruteforcing is an improvement but also fucking slow :-P
15:48:40 <oklopol> ehird: just write it in the normal canonical number notation
15:48:49 <ehird> oklopol: that does not execute in befunge
15:48:49 <oklopol> in base 9, if you don't have an A
15:48:52 <ehird> Deewiant: not really
15:49:04 <ehird> it's obvious when you'll run into diminishing returns
15:49:38 <oklopol> wouldn't d9*d+9*d+9*... work?
15:49:51 <oklopol> four chars per digit, might lose to Deewiant, too hard to calculate
15:50:02 <fizzie> 19*2+9*2+9*7+9*1+9*3+9*4+9*8+9*7+9*5+9*0+9*8+9*6+9*4+9*5+9*3+9*5+9*5+9*3+9*4+9*1+9*1+9*3+9*6+9*8+9*6+9*3+
15:50:07 <ehird> Deewiant's wins massively on... other numbers
15:50:18 <Deewiant> Since this is a 25-digit number.
15:50:37 <fizzie> It's 122713487508645355341136863 in base-9.
15:50:55 <ehird> oklopol: we have a-f actually.
15:50:58 <ehird> we're just not using them
15:51:00 <oklopol> anyway, as i said, i was just projecting.
15:51:12 <oklopol> i just want to load like 3 pages
15:51:26 <Deewiant> With a-f it's a bit shorter: 88688888888f8+d6781489**+1459**+3488f4+1a8:**+****+*****+************
15:51:32 <ehird> oklopol: are you using that gprs thing
15:51:37 <oklopol> Deewiant: how long would mine be?
15:51:44 <oklopol> ehird: no, neighbor's net.
15:51:56 <ehird> oklopol: complain to your neighbour :P
15:52:00 <Deewiant> oklopol: 2009-09-01 17:50:54 ( Deewiant) In base 9 it'd be 105?
15:52:16 <fizzie> 19642DA3B3043453DAA0CB in base-15, with approximately *4 for the "+f*" parts in-between.
15:52:23 <fizzie> (Uppercase since that's what bc outputs.)
15:53:15 <Deewiant> Oh right, ceiling the end result isn't quite enough is it
15:53:30 <oklopol> because the first one doesn't need a +
15:54:14 <oklopol> (which you should, if you call it an algorithm)
15:54:31 <Deewiant> I call lots of simple things algorithms
15:54:38 <oklopol> because this is just a call to zip
15:55:13 <oklopol> well, umm. it was just a figure of your mom
15:56:31 <ehird> your mom and ] totally rhyme
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16:15:06 <oerjan> <ehird> I want a key on my keyboard that is labelled "Ha! You referenced xkcd! You are clearly a funny, culturally relevant and intelligent person."
16:15:50 <oerjan> i'm more worried about my impression that xkcd sometimes seems to be referencing reddit lately...
16:16:16 <oerjan> i wonder if he is spending too much time there ;D
16:17:24 <oerjan> otoh they _do_ have some kind of business partnership
16:17:52 <ehird> they're in business together selling shitty ties
16:18:19 <oerjan> hm shitty ties. something for GregorR?
16:18:58 <fizzie> Oh, and speaking of 8119824918791285132865191:
16:18:59 <fizzie> 3176727665646579168954283320> \:#v_.@
16:19:17 <oerjan> <ehirdium> Hallo. <-- scariest atomic element ever
16:19:52 <fizzie> 3176727665646579168954283320>\#+:#* #9 #\ #- #1_
16:20:16 <ehird> Yes, that would be a base loop.
16:20:32 <ehird> fizzie: why not... base 10?
16:20:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: You need a $ at the end
16:20:51 <ehird> oerjan: 'tis a reference to adium and also scary.
16:21:18 <fizzie> Did 1+ to the base-9 digits to have 0 more easily usable as a end-of-digits marker.
16:21:47 <ehird> But, err, you have 0 at the top of the stack.
16:22:04 <fizzie> That's the accumulator.
16:22:08 <fizzie> Well, if you can call it that.
16:22:30 <oerjan> the accumulator, it's accumulating
16:22:57 <fizzie> Accumulonimbus clouds today.
16:23:54 <ehird> acacumollofdimbus on the rimbus its like a rombhus but you dont hve to worry oh no
16:24:24 <fizzie> Rombhus is a type of house, I think.
16:25:49 <ehird> "—and he build a crooked house—" was about gay arriage in rhombusses
16:26:15 <ehird> rhombu bus s yststem
16:26:17 <ehird> gets you from A to B
16:27:12 <ehird> horseless arriages
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16:27:52 <ehird> we're talking about gay marriage in 4-dimensional shapes
16:27:57 <ehird> well, just me rather
16:28:04 <ais523> hmm... well, I'm not particularly surprised
16:28:11 <ehird> rhombuses aren't 4 dimensional
16:28:21 <ehird> but "—and he built a crooked house—" was about a tesseract
16:28:24 <ehird> but I said build, not built
16:28:45 <ehird> SO THEREFORE MAGIC HAPPENS HERE and we come back to comprehension on the rhombus bus services, gets you from A to B in a rhombus
16:30:00 <ehird> do you understand ais523.
16:30:31 <ais523> possibly I could if I wanted to
16:30:49 <ehird> you will never be salvaged from the burning ruins of a dead rhombusbus, gets you from A to B in a rhombus
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16:34:14 * oerjan now wonders what the heck Picard-Vessiot theory has to do with the possibility of four-dimensional houses
16:34:27 <fizzie> Deewiant: If I got my base-64 right, this one assumes only ASCII. The "decompression" takes up more space than the "digits" even for 8119824918791285132865191, though:
16:34:29 <fizzie> "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>:#+\#* #* #8 #8 #\ #- #* #8 #8_$
16:34:49 <ehird> I don't see where you got Picard-Vessiot theory from
16:34:55 <oerjan> ehird: it's mentioned in wp's article on "And he built a crooked house"
16:35:10 <ehird> *“—And He Built a Crooked House—”
16:35:11 <oerjan> the link leads to a page on galois theory which doesn't mention the term
16:35:12 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's a bit longer than the base-9 one, isn't it?
16:35:27 <ehird> oerjan: eh, just read the story
16:35:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, by one character, if I add the missing $ there too.
16:36:10 <fizzie> The repetition of 88* is inelegant, but \ is so limited.
16:36:42 <oerjan> ehird: nah, i'm just suspecting technobabble here
16:36:55 <ehird> I don't recall any technobabble
16:37:01 <ehird> It's a good story anyway
16:37:25 <Deewiant> I wonder what the minimal number is whereafter parsers like that take up less space than plain +*-representations of the number
16:38:10 <ehird> oerjan: http://web.archive.org/web/20000902022857/http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/heinlein/heinlein1.html
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16:38:14 <ehird> Hasn't fully loaded for me yet, but
16:38:46 <ehird> Nope, just errors out
16:39:02 * ehird tries a later date
16:39:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: Reusing the obvious \ both ways make the base-64 one shorter by one char than the base-9: "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>:#+ #* #* #8 #8\ #- #* #8 #8_$
16:39:52 <ehird> Deewiant: Flash detection fails here
16:40:03 <ehird> oerjan: http://web.archive.org/web/20080115153446/http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/heinlein/heinlein1.html
16:40:05 <ehird> Loads quickly, etc.
16:40:16 <ais523> what lang is that? Befunge?
16:40:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Loads much slower than the other one :-P
16:40:33 <ehird> Deewiant: Stop living in opposites world.
16:41:06 <oerjan> Deewiant: erm the other one errored out for me
16:41:31 <ehird> Annoyingly, I need to resize my window small
16:41:33 <Deewiant> I'm even starting to get pictures :-O
16:41:36 <ehird> Otherwise the black text goes on the green background
16:41:46 <Deewiant> ehird: The old link doesn't have that problem
16:41:55 <ehird> Yes, but it also redirects my browser
16:42:16 <Deewiant> This is why we have things like NoScript.
16:42:29 <ehird> This is why we have things like not using shitty websites
16:43:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: Still a bit shorter: "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>:#+\#* #@' $#\ #- #@' $# _$
16:43:19 <oerjan> ah thanks for the resizing tip
16:43:42 <ehird> 3$&*(#Y$(&#*$(& to you too
16:44:05 <fizzie> The $s ate a bit of the savings '@ gave me over 88*.
16:44:42 <Deewiant> Would it take less space to use "" and k$ instead of #?
16:45:06 <fizzie> Actually it seems to be rather nice with just "" both ways, since I don't have to jump over the @ then.
16:46:25 <fizzie> Possibly this would work, haven't tested: "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>:#+ #*"@"$#\\#-"@"$# _$
16:48:37 <Deewiant> Ah, but neither did the previous.
16:48:55 <fizzie> Well, there could be some other error. I don't have a bignum funge, I've just been thinking aloud here.
16:49:10 <Deewiant> They do all give the same number (90), though. :-P
16:49:42 <fizzie> I tested the base-9 for a smaller number, so the theory is sound. :p
16:49:59 <fizzie> Right, the : there is before the \.
16:49:59 <Deewiant> Yes, base-9 works, but your base-64 doesn't.
16:50:26 <fizzie> Try something like "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>\#+ #*"@"$#\:#-"@"$# _$
16:52:20 <fizzie> I did the base-64 digits manually, since bc(1) only goes up to obase=16, based on the obase=2 binary output of 8119824918791285132865191, so an error might've crept in.
16:52:59 <fizzie> Yes, there's one flipped bit in there.
16:53:09 <fizzie> Somewhere around the middle of it.
16:53:49 <fizzie> 8119824918791285132865191-8119824918791284998647463 = 134217728 = 2^27, so it's that bit.
16:54:42 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure that with enough ingenuity it's possible to use that same "@" to provide both the '@- and the '@* numbers. Maybe I should try to permute it a bit.
16:56:41 <fizzie> Can it really be as simple as "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>\#+:#*"@"-#\\# _$ or did I mess something new up, in addition to that one digit?
16:57:25 <fizzie> Er, I obviously mean the less retarded "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>\#+:#*"@"-#\_$
16:57:30 <Deewiant> You can get Erlang and efunge and try it yourself, if you like
16:57:48 <fizzie> I'm at work... hey, wait, there's Erlang on this thing.
16:58:02 <Deewiant> That latest one seems to be an infinite loop
16:58:13 <fizzie> Yes, it's missing one space.
16:58:23 <fizzie> "gzZTSbG]B]I\wZ"0>\#+:#*"@"-# \_$
16:58:28 <ehird> It's probably not the latest erlang v2009-08.
16:58:46 <fizzie> It's "Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.6.3", whatever that means. Probably ancient.
16:59:20 <Deewiant> Mine is 5.7.1 and the efunge version I've got here got warnings about doing deprecated things
16:59:45 <Deewiant> Anyway, that is indeed 8119824918791284998647463
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17:00:22 <fizzie> Well, now, that last one has a pretty nifty base-64-depackifier. I ♥ befunge.
17:00:40 <ehird> ais523: you know how you said 9-nines would be ridiculous?
17:00:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
17:00:53 <ais523> ehird: in what context?
17:02:03 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
17:02:49 <Deewiant> fizzie: Is your base-64 just 64 characters starting at '@'?
17:02:56 <fizzie> "AXD301 -- 99.9999999% reliability (9 nines) (31 ms. year!)"
17:03:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, it's not the more common base-64.
17:03:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: But the printable characters end at 126
17:04:08 <fizzie> Deewiant: Fortunately your example number didn't have any other digits. :p
17:04:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can trivially change that to "base-63 starting from ASCII '?'" with a s/@/?/.
17:04:44 <ehird> fizzie: Yeah, that's what I meant
17:04:52 <ehird> It's an Erlang switcher system thing
17:04:52 <Deewiant> You can do base-96 if you start from ' '
17:04:59 <ehird> How on earth can they commit to 9 nines; it becomes meaningless at that point
17:12:20 <fizzie> But then I'd lose the nifty "substract and multiply constant both ways" thing.
17:12:20 <fizzie> Would be an advantage for larger numbers, sure.
17:12:20 <ehird> Bicurious Befunge: "I'll subtract and multiply your constant both ways, baby."
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17:12:20 <fizzie> Deewiant: I could start from '#' since then I could do '# which is push-35 in one direction and do-nothing the other way. Still wouldn't be quite that short though.
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17:12:20 <Deewiant> Hmm, 2^64-1 is ff2+14'@*+1a'@*+128'@:***+"a7 /Q"***+*****
17:12:20 <Deewiant> By that time it's already better to use that base-64-reader
17:12:21 <Deewiant> Of course, it's also 28'@'@:*:**:***1- if you apply some extra cleverness
17:13:53 <fizzie> You can do 0 ... 63^11-1 = 62050608388552823487 > 2^64 with 11 base-64 digits, and the extraction part -- 0>\#+:#*"@"-# \_$ -- is 17 characters, so that's an upper bound of 28 characters for any constant for a "normal" funge on a "normal" machine.
17:14:26 <fizzie> Er, base-63, I mean, and ? instead of @ there.
17:14:47 <ehird> Bongggggggggggggggggggg
17:15:19 <Deewiant> 63^11-1 is a nice one: "?11111QQ":*:********
17:17:13 <fizzie> That's certainly nicer than the base-63 representation, "}}}}}}}}}}}"0>\#+:#*"?"-# \_$ (again untested)
17:17:40 <ehird> "Factoring large prime numbers is, in general, hard."
17:17:40 <ehird> — GNU Coreutils manual
17:18:20 <Deewiant> You think that doesn't belong in a manual?
17:19:11 <ehird> It's sort of like saying "Removing a file will render you unable to access its contents" in the rm manual :P
17:19:19 <ehird> Meh, I just found it funny
17:19:38 <Deewiant> The latter is kind of obvious, the former is specialized knowledge
17:20:00 <fizzie> It also continues with relevant stuff: "The Pollard Rho algorithm used by factor is particularly effective for numbers with relatively small factors. If you wish to factor large numbers which do not have small factors (for example, numbers which are the product of two large primes), other methods are far better."
17:20:01 <Deewiant> I wouldn't expect people to know that factorization is computationally hard unless they're computer-sciencey
17:20:36 <fizzie> Though they could say "(for example, if you are trying to break RSA encryption)" there.
17:23:09 <ehird> I hope nobody does that :P
17:23:34 <fizzie> Try to break RSA with factor(1).
17:23:57 <ehird> Yes but there is sort of a lot of stuff encrypted with RSA.
17:24:16 <fizzie> Yes, it is concievable that NSA's secret factorization algorithms have accidentally ended up in GNU Coreutils.
17:24:46 <ehird> Deewiant: How much stuff have you got encrypted with pgp?
17:25:42 <Deewiant> Even if I had, I wouldn't worry
17:25:45 <ehird> It'd just melt down all of our current security entirely
17:25:49 <ehird> which isn't very good
17:27:31 <ehird> Deewiant: What wouldn't?
17:27:46 <ehird> fizzie added factor(1) as a joke
17:27:50 <ehird> I never said factor(1)
17:28:03 <Deewiant> Oh, I thought he clarified what you meant
17:33:11 <ehird> I want to make a cocktail of like 10 energy drinks.
17:33:18 <ehird> And not drink it due to valuing my life.
17:33:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, factor(1) errors out for too large numbers iirc
17:34:13 <fizzie> If it's the coreutils one, you can compile it with GMP support for large numbers.
17:34:29 <ehird> % gfactor 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
17:34:31 <AnMaster> ah indeed.. it errors out on my ubuntu system but not my gentoo desktop
17:34:35 <ehird> Maybe I shouldn't have picked such a big counterexample.
17:36:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, you can make use of multiple cpus to speed up factoring right?
17:36:28 <AnMaster> well depends on your algorithm. At least the naive one should be easy to speed up that way
17:37:11 <fizzie> No-one factors large numbers with that one, though. But yes, I think there are good parallel algorithms for it.
17:37:37 <fizzie> What I have no clue about is the state-of-the-art in number-factoring.
17:38:05 <ehird> "We can break real-world RSA in 2^97 years!"
17:38:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, of course no one use the naive one for large numbers. At least no one sane.
17:41:06 <fizzie> Based on some quick googling, the current records from the RSA Factoring Challenge were done on an 80-node cluster.
17:41:13 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Mine is 5.7.1 and the efunge version I've got here got warnings about doing deprecated things
17:42:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no warnings on V5.7.2 for me with trunk or athr branch.
17:42:58 <fizzie> "The efunge version I've got here" sounds like it might not be the newest.
17:43:11 <AnMaster> you use lp:efunge/trunk right? Not on rage.kuonet.org (see bzr info, look for "parent branch")
17:43:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw 5.6.3 is probably too old
17:44:03 <AnMaster> I'm pretty sure that at least input will cause an exception with that old version.
17:44:30 <AnMaster> R13B or later is pretty much required, since I use some unicode stuff that was added in that version
17:47:42 <Deewiant> I don't know what it was, some old trunk I haven't updated in months
17:48:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, just curious, what was reported as deprecated?
17:48:17 <Deewiant> IIRC something about "array" or some such now being a primitive
17:48:45 <Deewiant> Something becoming standard and thus using it in a variable name is deprecated, or something like that
17:48:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh right, remember that. Yeah your copy is outdated
17:49:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well a type spec name in fact
17:49:11 <Deewiant> Yes, I knew that it was outdated
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18:22:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, most of your projects seems to be in haskell rather than D. Why didn't you decide to code ccbi2 in haskell too?
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18:59:00 <Asztal> speaking for myself, it can be hard to predict performance in Haskell
19:11:23 <AnMaster> Asztal, considering how much Deewiant complained about the hash library in D recently I think his opinion is it is hard to predict performance in D too XD
19:11:35 <AnMaster> (tends to be rather easy in C though)
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20:34:20 <nooga> set f {x y: x+y} print f 1 2 #=> 3
20:35:50 <nooga> set [: {until :] items : map items {x: x*2}} [[: 1 2 3 :] [: 4 :]] #=> [[2 4 6] [8]]
20:37:26 <AnMaster> editing the panel in gnome is seriously annoying
20:37:43 <AnMaster> possibly the "lock to panel" thingy is messing things up
20:38:17 <nooga> set unless {cond `begin until `end terms : if not cond terms}
20:38:32 <nooga> unless == a b begin do_sth end
20:38:54 <nooga> defining functions with own pattern that parses args
20:41:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Nah, it's fairly easy to predict in D.
20:41:56 <AnMaster> nooga, to me it looks vaguely like a mix of perl and some functional language XD
20:42:02 <nooga> liek sadol with longer IDs, lambda and this pattern thingy
20:42:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: If it's a feature built in to the compiler, then yeah. ;-)
20:42:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't the language itself built in?
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20:42:52 <Deewiant> Yes yes, you know what I meant. :-P
20:42:54 <AnMaster> it sucks by weird compiler bugs
20:42:54 <nooga> lol, i wrote 'liek' accidentally for the first time in my life
20:43:27 <Deewiant> As for CCBI2, two reasons: 1. I had 6000 lines of D code for a Befunge interp already... 2. Since we're all performance-crazy and the whole thing is rather imperative in nature, Haskell isn't that great a fit.
20:43:32 <nooga> what are you talking about? :|
20:44:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's not a weird bug, it's quite a sensible one actually.
20:44:27 <nooga> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=ccbi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:44:35 <Deewiant> One of them is still unfixed, even.
20:44:51 <AnMaster> Language Files Code Comment Comment % Blank Total
20:44:51 <AnMaster> ---------------- ----- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
20:44:51 <AnMaster> c 95 8848 3542 28.6% 1597 13987
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20:44:53 <Deewiant> It doesn't really matter since the mangled name contains the module where it is :-P
20:44:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 6800 lines isn't a lot
20:45:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It was less than 10000 last I checked.
20:45:26 <Deewiant> It's probably more like 8000 though.
20:45:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, plus another 2745 LOC (4573 total) for the lib directory, which contains libghthash and genx
20:46:01 <nooga> what about your bf to C ?
20:46:14 <AnMaster> nooga, and they are all dormant
20:46:50 <nooga> why's that? i thought that was a rather interesting topic
20:47:45 <AnMaster> nooga, didn't know enough CS to write a better optimiser at that time. My choice of design was a bit limited. Maybe I'll write yet another one in a few years.
20:48:20 <AnMaster> as in, I couldn't work out how to work the graphs :P
20:48:25 <nooga> the firs thing i thought about was Counter-Strike
20:48:37 <AnMaster> nooga, that is the last thing that would come to my mind for CS
20:48:58 <AnMaster> 1) computer science 2) file extension for C# 3) hm no idea... 4) oh wait... 5) wasn
20:48:59 <nooga> maybe that's because i played half-life 1 for last 12h
20:49:09 <AnMaster> 6) damn don't remember what that game was called
20:49:21 <AnMaster> nooga, I never played half life
20:49:48 <nooga> but hl1 is a memmory from childhood
20:50:37 <AnMaster> and when you played half life?
20:51:09 <nooga> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-Life_(video_game)
20:51:43 <AnMaster> and yes I know it is a game, I just wonder what element the title of that game refers too
20:52:21 <nooga> i think it refers to some person that if half dead
20:53:25 <nooga> no, it's just fucking awesome
20:53:38 <AnMaster> nooga, I never liked first person shooters
20:54:02 <nooga> buut that one is cool
20:54:11 <AnMaster> nor third person shooters btw.
20:54:14 <Deewiant> Half-Life is just a scientific term, it has no particular meaning in the context of the game
20:54:21 <AnMaster> though first person ones are worse
20:54:31 <Deewiant> They have expansions called "Blue Shift" and such, too.
20:54:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, blue shift refers to Doppler effect?
20:55:10 <AnMaster> I can't think of anything else it could refer to
20:55:22 <nooga> funny: if you translate half-life to Polish it will look like: czas połowicznego rozpadu
20:55:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what has that got to do with half life?
20:55:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Nothing, as I just explained.
20:55:54 <nooga> blie shift -> przesunięcie ku fioletowi
20:55:56 <AnMaster> I guess uranium travelling at high speed towards you would blue shift ;P
20:56:28 <AnMaster> en:half-life = sv:halveringstid
20:56:41 <AnMaster> lets hear the fi one Deewiant!
20:56:54 <AnMaster> nooga, it literally means "halving-time"
20:57:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how the hell do you pronounce it
20:57:30 <Deewiant> And also literally "halving-time"
20:58:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the dirt below the n and the t?
20:58:23 <Deewiant> I'm not sure, I just copied that from Wiktionary
20:58:27 <nooga> pl:czas połowicznego rozpadu = en:half decay time
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20:59:31 <Deewiant> Evidently it means they're dental consonants
21:00:16 <Deewiant> If you wanted to know what ̪ /is/, it's U+032A COMBINING BRIDGE BELOW
21:00:24 <AnMaster> it seems en:blue shift is sv:blåförskjutning according to Wikipedia
21:01:02 <FireFly> Blåförskjutning.. I think I've heard about that once
21:01:05 <AnMaster> well literal translation of the sv: one would end up as blue shift I think
21:01:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, rödförskjutning too it seems
21:01:34 <FireFly> Haven't heard about that one, though
21:01:41 <FireFly> "Blåförskjutning är motsatsen till rödförskjutning"
21:01:50 <nooga> how would you write swedish word "lax" in IPA?
21:01:56 <AnMaster> FireFly, well the red one isn't a stub
21:01:59 <Deewiant> Funny, I'd've thought red shift is better known
21:02:00 <FireFly> Ah, the article about the red one was a bit longer
21:02:53 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is that <Deewiant> Yes
21:03:01 <AnMaster> <FireFly> Oh, great information
21:03:02 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That's not what you asked
21:03:14 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is that
21:03:27 <Deewiant> 2009-09-01 23:02:15 ( AnMaster) Deewiant, oh?
21:03:27 <Deewiant> 2009-09-01 23:02:29 ( Deewiant) Yes
21:03:27 <Deewiant> 2009-09-01 23:02:32 ( AnMaster) Deewiant, why is that
21:03:38 <FireFly> [22:02:15] <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh?
21:03:38 <FireFly> [22:02:32] <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is that
21:03:48 <AnMaster> there was a 2 sec difference here :P
21:04:05 <Deewiant> Anyway, for the "why", redshift is much more prominent in astronomy
21:04:24 <FireFly> " I vissa fall förekommer också det motsatta fenomenet, blåförskjutning."
21:04:33 <FireFly> Seems like blue ones are less common
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21:04:38 <FireFly> And therefore more unknown?
21:04:45 <nooga> from CS to red shift
21:04:55 <AnMaster> nooga, what a shift of topic ;P
21:05:57 <FireFly> Yeah, #esoteric, and therefore we may not talk about anything remotely related to esolangs
21:06:49 <Deewiant> Well, redshift is just what you're more likely to run into so I'd consider it more likely that one has never heard of blueshift
21:06:59 <AnMaster> FireFly, we did talk about ccbi above
21:07:04 <Deewiant> Of course, if you actually know what either is, it should be obvious what the other is.
21:07:36 <FireFly> AnMaster, you said it again!
21:07:38 <Deewiant> That'll make sure all discussion is on-topic, at least
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21:11:34 <FireFly> You talked about esolangs again, or rather, mentioned ccbi
21:11:56 <FireFly> And it was a semi-pun of the Holy Grail knights who say Ni
21:12:15 <AnMaster> FireFly, that reference was too far fetched by far
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21:12:39 <FireFly> far too far fetched by far
21:12:53 <AnMaster> FireFly, ah yes that would have been even better
21:13:40 <AnMaster> FireFly, I'm pretty sure "you said it again" is not unique to the knights who use the Swedish word for first person plural :P
21:14:12 <FireFly> Definitely not first person, at least
21:14:23 <nooga> TYPO!!!!!!!!!@@!!21212
21:15:06 <FireFly> You probably want "vet" there
21:15:41 <FireFly> Swedish must be confusing for someone not knowing the language at all
21:16:14 <FireFly> But so is probably all languages, depending on how far away they are from other languages one knows
21:16:33 <nooga> my brother speaks swedish almost fluently
21:16:43 <AnMaster> FireFly, do you think that smorgasbord is one of the funniest English words?
21:16:58 <nooga> just from reading few books and listening swedish radio
21:17:02 <Deewiant> I think it's one of those stupidest loan words
21:17:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, yes, they copied it and dropped the dots
21:17:11 <nooga> and being there for a month
21:17:11 <FireFly> ...is it an english loan word?
21:17:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, they loaned it from Swedish
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21:17:42 <FireFly> But I guess it's partly because I'm used to it
21:17:50 <FireFly> To the swedish one, I mean
21:18:09 <nooga> en:smorgasbord = pl:szwedzki stół
21:18:10 <AnMaster> FireFly, they loaned ombudsman too btw
21:18:24 <nooga> whish means literally Swedish table
21:18:33 <Deewiant> English is a parasite, feeding off other languages
21:18:34 <FireFly> I mean, sandwhich table sounds all right to me
21:18:43 <AnMaster> FireFly, I guess because we invented the concept
21:18:53 <nooga> btw. GOD I LOVE FOOD AT IKEA
21:19:01 <AnMaster> FireFly, iirc they loaned gravad lax too... but for once put it into *one* word
21:19:08 <FireFly> A friend of mine ate swedish meatballs when he was in the States
21:19:11 <AnMaster> usually it is Swedish that writes words together instead
21:19:12 <Deewiant> Finns have had it as long as the Swedes, I think
21:19:41 <FireFly> Not that kind of grave accent
21:19:46 <AnMaster> FireFly, gravadlax ... doesn't that look weird?
21:20:21 <AnMaster> FireFly, iirc that is how they do it. Unlike Swedish.. for once
21:20:45 <FireFly> And I'm happy we didn't invent a word for it
21:21:13 <AnMaster> FireFly, iirc norwegian translated broadcasting to "kringkastning". Not sure what the Swedish word is in fact
21:21:41 <nooga> that reminds me I'm hungry
21:22:00 <AnMaster> nooga, no you are Polish, not from hungry :P
21:22:47 <AnMaster> which was what made the pun so bad
21:22:51 <FireFly> "from hungry" doesn't make sense
21:22:59 <FireFly> At least you could spell out the country name :P
21:23:25 <AnMaster> FireFly, that is en:send right?
21:23:41 <AnMaster> FireFly, it would be more like sänd till alla
21:23:51 <FireFly> To transmit a message or signal via radio waves or electronic means
21:24:40 <FireFly> Uh, yeah, better translation
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21:24:51 <AnMaster> FireFly, direktsändning would be live broadcasting then?
21:24:59 <AnMaster> or why did you mention it above
21:25:21 <FireFly> Referring to an interpreter as "tydare" would look strange
21:25:57 <FireFly> tolk would me more like compiler
21:26:10 <Deewiant> fi:tulkki = en:interpreter in the context of computers as well
21:27:38 <AnMaster> FireFly, actually, tab inserts , and space
21:27:53 <nooga> FireFly: no it does not
21:28:04 <nooga> it inserts : and space
21:28:14 <FireFly> Depends on the settings of your client, pretty much
21:28:15 <AnMaster> nooga, .................... stop being silly..... depends on client of course
21:28:31 <FireFly> But I want my tab to autocomplete with only nick
21:28:51 <AnMaster> FireFly, unless at start of line it just completes with space :P
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21:29:07 <AnMaster> FireFly, FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly <-- like that, was just f<tab> a few times
21:29:26 <Deewiant> spam: spam spam spam spam spam spam spam
21:30:12 <AnMaster> fuck oru.se.... needs to be www.oru.se
21:31:48 <AnMaster> Datateknik C, Kompilatorer och interpretatorer, 7,5 högskolepoäng, valbar*
21:32:14 <AnMaster> in the context of computers, at least in that course name it is not "tolk"
21:33:04 <FireFly> That's relatively central, right?
21:33:48 <AnMaster> FireFly, anyway a bit south of stockholm in the N/S direction
21:34:05 <AnMaster> and near the middle in the E/W direction
21:34:24 <AnMaster> FireFly, need to read up on geography :P
21:34:34 <FireFly> I know my geography sucks :<
21:35:30 <FireFly> North of the northern whateverthoselinesonthemaparecalled
21:35:40 <AnMaster> whateverthoselinesonthemaparecalled <-- err?
21:35:59 <FireFly> I forgot the names of the lines
21:36:39 <AnMaster> FireFly, North or south of Narvik?
21:36:48 <AnMaster> and what about relative Gällivari? (spelling?)
21:36:50 <FireFly> Narvik... I think I've heard of it
21:37:32 <FireFly> Meh, I don't really know, as I said my geography isn't really good :P
21:37:33 <AnMaster> FireFly, iron ore mines in Kirnua you know? Sent by train to Narvik, then taken away with ships
21:37:54 <FireFly> yeah, I was in Abisko a few years ago
21:38:04 <FireFly> So I should know this better, I guess :P
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21:38:40 <AnMaster> FireFly, also I was in Kiruna this summer. Never went quite as far north as Abisko
21:39:15 <AnMaster> FireFly, btw where is Göteborg relative Stockholm?
21:39:53 <FireFly> Well, you can take it granted that I know that Göteborg is on the western coast of Sweden :P
21:39:54 <AnMaster> FireFly, jönköping relative göteborg?
21:40:35 <AnMaster> FireFly, not a lot in that case, on this map I just double checked on it looked at the same level
21:41:03 <AnMaster> possibly slightly north, but not sure
21:41:24 <FireFly> Well yeah, I though they were pretty leveled
21:41:42 <AnMaster> FireFly, trick question. There are lots of places named ekeby :P
21:42:01 <AnMaster> google earth pops up 9. and I see two ones missing there at least
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04:50:12 <Sgeo> Will I be killed for using reinterpret_cast here? http://codepad.org/dCpL2Gmc
04:50:46 <coppro> in fact, that will almost certainly do exactly what you don't want it to
04:50:58 <coppro> you probably just want static_cast
04:51:55 <Sgeo> coppro, but that would convert the float to an int that's just the float rounded down
04:52:00 <Sgeo> That doesn't help me
04:52:06 <coppro> oh, what do you want then?
04:52:26 <Sgeo> To be able to go to the next highest or lowest representable float
04:53:56 <coppro> hmm... I don't think there's a standard way to do that
04:54:15 <coppro> you could try adding the epsilon value, but denormalized values will get in the way of that
04:54:25 <Sgeo> http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm
04:54:38 <Sgeo> "This means that if we take two floats in memory, interpret their bit pattern as integers, and compare them, we can tell which is larger, without doing a floating point comparison."
04:55:04 <Sgeo> Instead of comparing, I want to go to the next or previous, but the idea was similar enough
04:55:33 <coppro> true, but what if this change results in a change in the appropriate exponent?
04:56:43 <Sgeo> I guess that would mean that the next float wouldn't just be +1 in the representation, but + something larger? That would break my program :(
04:58:01 <Sgeo> Please enter the altitude: 2
04:58:01 <Sgeo> The shell below 2.0000000000 is 1.9999998808
04:58:09 <Sgeo> So it looks as though it works
04:59:15 <coppro> hm... I guess that will work with IEEE numbers
04:59:23 <Sgeo> "There are two possible solutions if you encounter this problem. Turn off the strict aliasing option using the -fno-strict-aliasing switch, or use a union between a float and an int to implement the reinterpretation of a float as an int. The documentation for -fstrict-aliasing gives more information."
04:59:43 <coppro> but that may only apply to comparisons
05:00:01 <Sgeo> It works on my compiler as is, and I don't feel like trying to fix it for codepad right now
05:00:09 <Sgeo> But a union may be better than reinterpret_cast
05:05:44 <Sgeo> In any case, as-is, it's still giving me predictions, and the emperical data so far seems to largely agree
05:05:55 <Sgeo> Although I should improve the model somewhat
05:06:04 <coppro> Sgeo: imo, you're better off picking a very low delta and a bigfloat
05:06:40 <Sgeo> Neither of those will help determine gravitational delay in Second Life
05:08:19 <coppro> Sgeo: did you see my PM?
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05:49:33 <oklopol> coppro: true, but what if this change results in a change in the appropriate exponent? <<< you mean the mantissa overflowing? the whole float range is ordered, that would lead to exactly what it's supposed to
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05:50:13 <coppro> oklopol: but wouldn't the mantissa overflowing lead to the exponent only going up by one?
05:50:40 <oklopol> which is what you want, the leading one moving one left
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05:51:26 <coppro> whereas the mantissa going back to 0 is a -2^(mantissa digits)
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05:52:43 <oklopol> x yyyy zzzzz means -1^x * 2^(yyyy - ...) * 1.zzzzz
05:52:44 <coppro> isn't it <sign><exponent><mantissa> in memory?
05:52:57 <oklopol> if yyyy grows by one, and zzzz goes to zero
05:53:18 <oklopol> we get from 1.11111... to 2.00000, say
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05:54:45 <oklopol> of course, if they were infinite floats, then that would be wrong
05:55:28 <oklopol> anyway gotta get going now
05:56:15 <oklopol> on the last lecture, i just spontaneously started dancing because they were so cool
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09:30:56 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/20090828/llvm-logo.png
09:31:04 <ehird> what a bitchin' compiler infrastructure logo
09:31:15 <ehird> i never want to use anything else
09:31:58 <fizzie> It looks more like the "complexity of compiler design" from the dragon book.
09:38:35 <ehird> [20:51] AnMaster: and yes I know it is a game, I just wonder what element the title of that game refers too
09:38:35 <ehird> [20:51] AnMaster: to*
09:38:35 <ehird> you're a physicist or something. and it's a pun on, like, you know, dying. (disclaimer: I haven't played it, I'm just guessing)
09:38:35 <ehird> [04:50] Sgeo: Will I be killed for using reinterpret_cast here? http://codepad.org/dCpL2Gmc
09:38:35 <ehird> no, just for using C++
09:38:58 <ehird> fizzie: it's coming across as "If you fucking dare to use gcc I'll rip you to shreds"
09:39:46 <ehird> "Apple is committed to full C++ support for Clang, and hopes to work out the remaining GCC incompatibilities during Snow Leopard's lifetime."
09:40:31 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/20090828/xcode-error-2-clang.png ← this is pretty much enough to make me use xcode
09:40:49 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/20090828/static-analyzer.png ← Oh, you're kidding me.
09:40:57 <ehird> That can't possibly work, it's too awesome.
09:41:46 <ehird> Cool, apparently the shipped userland apps in Snow Leopard are compiled with clang.
09:42:31 <ehird> Well, I guess that explains how they implemented blocks without tearing their hair out.
09:42:57 <ehird> Oh, it's supported in gcc too
09:55:09 <ehird> "But wait, there's more! GCD queues can actually be arranged in arbitrarily complex directed acyclic graphs. (Actually, they can be cyclic too, but then the behavior is undefined. Don't do that.)"
10:02:17 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/20090828/opencl-logo-150.png "OpenCL: Your GPU is sort of like a galaxy."
10:12:45 <ehird> "I'm worried by stories of the key symbols wearing off the DAS."
10:12:48 <ehird> Especially the Ultimate!
10:27:11 <Deewiant> I wonder why people find that worrying
10:27:45 <Deewiant> Do they care that much about their key symbols?
10:34:03 <ehird> They're like key symbols to me <3
10:34:11 <ehird> Deewiant: I imagine hunt and peckists bother :P
10:34:46 <Deewiant> Do hunt and peckists use nonstandard keyboards like the DAS?
10:46:09 <ehird> I have about 30 windows open right now
10:46:28 <ehird> I truly do need window manager GC...
10:55:38 <ehird> http://asset.soup.io/asset/0399/7711_459f_800.jpeg
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11:41:16 <anm_ub> meh.... lost connection to home, I guess anmaster will time out soon
11:42:13 <anm_ub> and I don't have the nick pass around here
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12:21:37 <ehird> pikhq: we should use these for the uberrig - http://blog.backblaze.com/2009/09/01/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-cheap-cloud-storage/
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12:39:24 <ehird> hey, if you select a non-linked url in safari and right click you can open it <3
12:39:29 <ehird> yes i know opera does that
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13:28:22 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-QJ4T3ix4c
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13:51:57 <ehird> http://glennbeckrapedandmurderedayounggirlin1990.com/ ;; Congrats, reddit. You just reached a new low.
13:52:46 <ehird> Although admittedly it's funny.
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13:56:08 * ehird copies 4.68GB from a disk image to a harddrive
13:56:21 <ehird> it's not like it's moving filesystems or anything, but oh no :P
13:56:25 <ehird> it's moving filesystems
13:56:30 <ehird> and the filesystem TYPES are the same
13:56:42 <ehird> but then, one of the filesystems is an imaginary one...
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15:47:17 <Leonidas> ehird: the static analyzer screenshot reminds me of drscheme
15:47:35 <Leonidas> but less ugly and well, static :)
15:48:17 <oerjan> <ehird> I truly do need window manager GC...
15:48:29 <oerjan> so if you cover up a window completely, it disappears? :D
15:49:48 <oerjan> 02:55:38 <ehird> http://asset.soup.io/asset/0399/7711_459f_800.jpeg
15:50:08 <oerjan> yes the smell _does_ bring tears to your eyes. how did you know?
15:51:15 <oerjan> <anm_ub> thunderstorm here heh <-- was here too tonight, and this morning
15:53:39 <AnMaster> <oerjan> 02:55:38 <ehird> http://asset.soup.io/asset/0399/7711_459f_800.jpeg <-- XD
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16:30:25 <Gracenotes> whee! My internets are working again :D
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16:44:28 <ais523> anyone here seen <http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Sliding-Around.aspx>?
16:44:32 <ais523> it fails on at least two levels, quite possibly 3
16:46:44 <ehird> the daily wtf is hopeless nowadays
16:46:51 <ehird> remember when they stole that name recently?
16:46:54 <ehird> I read the whole email exchange
16:47:01 <ehird> Alex Papadimoulis is a dick
16:47:24 <ehird> "So now that you've mentioned an arrangement other than me taking your name, idea and content and using them for my site without even crediting you, I'll conveniently talk about something else!"
16:47:39 <ais523> what name did they steal?
16:48:03 <ehird> programming praxis
16:48:15 <ehird> it was originally an arrangement with another site, programmingpraxis.com
16:48:19 <ehird> but alex refused to link to the site
16:48:23 <ehird> or even mention its owner
16:48:28 <ehird> and just stole the idea and even the content
16:48:33 <ehird> (he thought he would be credited)
16:48:42 <ehird> then, when asked to just change the name and move on
16:48:49 <ehird> he said sorry; we've "used it for too long"
16:48:55 <ehird> and they'll just have to share
16:48:57 <ehird> I'm not exaggerating
16:49:08 <ehird> ais523: http://programmingpraxis.com/2009/08/13/the-daily-wtf-maliciously-infringes-programming-praxis-trademark/
16:49:14 <ehird> includes link to the email exchange
16:49:57 <ais523> oh, is that why the renamed it?
16:50:26 <ehird> ais523: after it got on reddit and he tried to "clarify" (i.e. "Yes, I did it, but I'm not a dickwad... because!") and everyone, well, pointed out he was a dick
16:57:15 <ehird> "It'll use about 400 000W, and cost $900 000."
16:57:15 <ehird> — 4 petaflop, off-the-shelf supercomputer http://helmer3.sfe.se/
16:57:24 <ehird> donations now accepted :P
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17:08:49 <ehird> pikhq: our uberrig just got 1-upped
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17:15:19 <ehird> it even sort of fits into one structure!
17:16:01 <ehird> pikhq: note that if you just got 3 instead of 10 for 2pflops, it'd be "only" $270,000
17:16:23 <ehird> and use "only" 120kw
17:16:33 <ehird> i love their cooling design
17:16:42 <ehird> if you made the enclosures transparent it'd be beautiful
17:16:52 <ehird> seeing the blue, glowing cooling fluid run all over the place :
17:19:18 <ehird> sorta like one of those old liquid cooled Crays
17:34:59 <ehird> oklopol: on the other hand, you're an insane psychopath
17:48:27 <ais523> do I have to say hi again?
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17:49:53 <ehird> when you refresh a page after first loading it ~10 seconds ago and something new appears, it's eerie
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17:51:12 <oklopol> ehird: i was just about to join with a new nick on the chan
17:51:24 <oklopol> if you'd only waited 30 seconds
17:51:27 <ais523> ehird: one line from AnMaster, which he repeated when you turned back up
17:52:43 <ehird> you're so incomprehensible, oklopol :D
17:52:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I think that made perfect sense
17:53:01 <ehird> if you think about it a lot.
17:53:17 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean about 2 seconds?
17:53:43 <ehird> <AnMaster> If I take the opposite position to ehird all the time, nobody will be confused as to how much I dislike him!
17:53:44 <oklopol> i thought it was the obvious joke :P
17:54:19 <oklopol> but, it's true i'm not exactly that good at having conversations with humans, i usually assume they can deduce context by reading my mind.
17:54:23 <AnMaster> ehird, um I think you got that wrong. 99% of the time it is you who is taking the opposite position
17:54:41 <ehird> AnMaster: How apropos of you to take the opposite position to what I just said.
17:54:51 <oklopol> say, when i suddenly start continuing a conversation that happened weeks ago
17:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, well I said 99%, not 100%. :P
17:55:03 <ehird> oklopol: I think that'd break the lawnmower
17:55:46 <AnMaster> <oklopol> say, when i suddenly start continuing a conversation that happened weeks ago <-- sounds more like something zzo would do
17:55:58 <ehird> zzo never has conversations
17:56:02 <oklopol> there's no context for that, but, i'm not saying it's because i can read minds, it's because i have sucky people skills
17:56:03 <ehird> he just repeats a question over and over
17:56:18 <oklopol> well, "sucky people skills" means you're shy or something, i just suck
17:56:19 <ehird> oklopol: have you considered using a pill instead of a lawnmower
17:56:57 <oklopol> checked, no context for that
17:57:10 <ehird> [17:55] ehird: oklopol: I think that'd break the lawnmower
17:57:27 <oklopol> i meant the first one and the second one together
17:58:06 <ehird> oklopol: I was both continuing a week-old conversation and using the patented oklopol method of conversation that is "skip a bunch of logical inferences because I'm sure you can work them out" :P
17:58:29 <oklopol> but you can only do one at the time! :P
17:58:40 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the hair-dryer though?
17:58:40 <ehird> oklopol: OH YEAH? WELL WHAT DID I JUST DO THEN
17:58:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it isn't funny when you continue the joke after the reveal
17:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly would be wrong with that
17:59:21 <ehird> AnMaster: it just isn't funny
17:59:34 <AnMaster> ehird, since when was that a goal
17:59:47 <oklopol> ehird: well that's just stupid
18:00:15 <ehird> AnMaster: because otherwise it's just stupid ,and if you admit to trying to be stupid i will stab you.
18:00:29 <ehird> oklopol: but I can provide inferences for all possible conversations
18:00:59 <AnMaster> ehird, btw http://helmer.sfe.se/ is quite interesting too
18:01:05 <AnMaster> that is same but without the 3
18:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah exactly, there is a helmer2 too it seems
18:01:47 <ehird> i'd like a budget :P
18:03:05 <AnMaster> ehird, go to main page sfe.se and I think that explains it
18:03:19 <ehird> "Very happy!! I had a very nice talk with AMD, and they are going to send some hardware so I can start testing :)) Thank you!"
18:03:30 <ehird> i'd like people skills that good!
18:03:32 <oklopol> ehird: i don't actively remember that many conversations, the human brain doesn't work that way
18:07:14 <AnMaster> http://nslu2windsensor.sfe.se/ <-- heh. this guy is cool
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18:38:30 <FireFly> "To calibrate the wind speed sensor we just tejped it to the car and drove around."
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19:09:06 <MizardX> "Tejp" in swedish means "Tape" (pronounced the same).
19:14:06 <FireFly> But it looks very unfitting in an english context
19:14:25 <MizardX> 182 hits on google for "tejped"
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20:03:26 <ehird> is it just me, or is it that most of the time people say "well gee I'm a sociopath", they mean "well gee I'm an asshole, but you can't dislike me for that, it's *medical*"
20:19:20 <Pthing> No, because I have never heard anyone say that
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21:14:21 <ehird> oh the email log isn't there
21:14:27 <ehird> I was wondering how anyone could side with Alex
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21:46:36 <ais523> we seem to be getting a new sort of spam over at Esolang
21:46:54 <ais523> spambots are pasting Apache 404s onto Talk:Main Page/index.php...
22:06:57 <ais523> my guess is "broken spambot"
22:07:09 <ais523> maybe they scrape their spam from a website
22:07:22 <ehird> spam bots do all sorts of weird shit
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23:00:12 <MizardX> "And for programmers the paradox is even more pronounced: the language to learn, if you want to get a good job, is a language that people don't learn merely to get a job." -- http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html
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23:34:50 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: it isn't funny when you continue the joke after the reveal
23:35:19 <oerjan> but then i enjoy reddit pun threads, so...
23:35:21 <ehird> MizardX: should I stab you for quoting paul graham, or stab you for quoting paul graham
23:35:26 <ehird> this is an important decision
23:35:40 <oerjan> ehird: i suggest you stab him for quoting paul graham instead
23:35:48 * ehird stabs MizardX for quoting paul graham
23:35:51 <ehird> you should feel bad.
23:37:17 <oerjan> <ehird> i'd like people skills that good!
23:37:30 <oerjan> you mean your own experiences are more like something out of dilbert?
23:37:54 <oerjan> (mainly guessing, there)
23:38:17 <ehird> (unrelatedly, what i meant by the message was "it sure would be nice if AMD sent me a bunch of hardware by asking them")
23:38:34 <oerjan> <MizardX> 182 hits on google for "tejped"
23:38:50 <oerjan> well it's an english suffix on a swedish word...
23:40:28 <oerjan> tejpad, on the other hand, gives 32100
23:40:54 <exaltation> after 3, 2, and 1, it's hard to expect anything but 0000000
23:41:13 <oerjan> and a suggestion of did you mean "textpad"
23:41:28 <ehird> exaltation: dude, you're lament, not some freaky new person :P
23:42:15 <ehird> exaltation: whois don't lie
23:42:19 <oerjan> what a lamentable attempt
23:43:50 <ehird> oerjan: he has, um, not yet achieved exaltation
23:43:57 <oerjan> <ais523> spambots are pasting Apache 404s onto Talk:Main Page/index.php... <-- you deleted the funny joke in the original spam :( ;)
23:44:55 <oerjan> ais523: something russian, i pasted the google translate yesterday
23:45:20 <exaltation> if it's russian, i can possibly do a better job than google translate.
23:45:48 <oerjan> oh even _i_ can do a better job than google translate, in fact i submitted a suggestion to it
23:45:50 <ais523> hi exaltation, I haven't seen you around for a while
23:46:27 <oerjan> exaltation: ais523 deleted the page
23:46:31 <ais523> hmm... I think I mean "at all" rather than "for a while"
23:46:43 <ais523> oerjan: I can undelete it if necessary, but as it's spam, there's unlikely to be a need
23:47:00 <oerjan> i don't think i actually pasted the russian version
23:48:03 <oerjan> <oerjan> google's lousy translation: "The teacher asks Vovochka: - Little Johnny, why do you yesterday did not come to school? - Grandpa burns received ... - Oh! But seriously hurt? - Of course! In the crematorium are not joking."
23:48:43 <oerjan> (actually i am _sure_ i did not paste the russian version, since that would have required unicode)
23:48:50 <ehird> ais523: paste the russian plz
23:49:19 <exaltation> (except for how on earth could Vovochka become Johnny?)
23:50:13 <exaltation> Вовочка, ты почему вчера не пришел в школу? - Дедушка ожеги получил... - Ой! А серьезно пострадал? - Конечно! В крематории не шутят.
23:50:18 <ehird> I want the russian though
23:50:18 <oerjan> <oerjan> (little Johnny == Vovochka, except they're in different case and google only translates one of them fully to english)
23:50:41 <ehird> ais523: doesn't it take like three clicks :P
23:50:41 <oerjan> ais523: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.08.31
23:50:43 <ais523> there's an older spam in russian, too
23:51:01 <oerjan> ais523: it was the old spam of that page i was talking about
23:51:20 <ais523> == Анекдоты == Учительница спрашивает Вовочку: - Вовочка, ты почему вчера не пришел в школу? - Дедушка ожеги получил... - Ой! А серьезно пострадал? - Конечно! В крематории не шутят.
23:52:08 <ais523> exaltation: you missed two lines at the start, though, so I thought I may as well do the whole thing
23:52:54 <ehird> hey, he got it exactly right
23:53:07 <oerjan> exaltation: did you actually back translate that?
23:53:13 <ehird> lament is russian, no?
23:53:19 <exaltation> translated the punchline and googled for the rest to get it exact
23:55:08 <ais523> I can't find it in that log
23:55:48 <exaltation> the google translation is actually good
23:56:08 <exaltation> since it preserves the seriously hurt / not joking pun
23:56:20 <ais523> now I'm wondering what the joke is
23:56:35 <oerjan> exaltation: wait, that was a pun?
23:56:52 <exaltation> "Was he seriously hurt? - Of course, they're not joking at the crematorium"
23:57:23 <exaltation> a pun on the two meanings of seriously
23:58:16 <ais523> the pun works in Russian too?
23:59:02 <oerjan> except i'm not sure it really works in english (or the equivalent norwegian, which would be similar), because the adverbial phrase has a fixed meaning nothing to do with humor
23:59:34 <exaltation> sure, it's better in russian, that's why it's a russian joke
23:59:45 <exaltation> the punchline itself is funnier in russian
23:59:55 <ais523> oerjan: in English, it's a bad pun; I can imagine it would be a rather better pun in Russian
00:01:26 <oerjan> (but then i didn't notice the pun before exaltation mentioned it, and still thought it was funny)
00:02:03 <oerjan> btw you know that joke about the two tomatoes which ends with "Come on, catch up"?
00:02:46 <oerjan> it's been translated into norwegian as "Kom an, ketsjup", totally without any pun. Still makes children laugh. :D
00:04:01 <oerjan> and then makes adults groan once, after years have passed, they learn that it was originally an english pun
00:04:21 <exaltation> (another great quote from the russian pulp fiction translation: "it's not a motorcycle, baby, it's a helicopter")
00:04:28 <ais523> oerjan: you mean, puns are funny in translation even if they're no longer puns?
00:04:54 <oerjan> ais523: sometimes the absurdity remains, or even gets stronger...
00:05:16 <ais523> now someone's going to have to translate some funny puns into English for me
00:06:23 <ehird> ais523: Two polar bears are in a bath.
00:06:32 <ais523> ehird: is that the entire pun?
00:06:33 <ehird> One asks the other to pass the soap, and the other replies: "No soap, radio!"
00:06:41 <ehird> It's *hilarious* in Lojban.
00:06:42 <ais523> ehird: [[w:No soap radio]]
00:06:49 <ais523> * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=No_soap_radio
00:06:52 <ehird> ais523: No shit :P
00:06:56 <exaltation> "Poruchik Rzhevsky, tell us a pun! - Sure. Shitwise, brown; bodywise, white"
00:06:57 <ais523> probably the best answer to that joke in existence
00:07:50 <ais523> upon reading that page, incidentally, I strained my mind to think of a situation in which that punchline was actually funny
00:07:58 <ais523> but if there was one, it would be a great anti-anti-joke
00:08:56 <oerjan> A Swede was pondering math. "It's called integral, but what then?"
00:09:03 <ais523> exaltation: it's interesting, but maybe not funny
00:09:18 <ais523> it looks more like an intellectual exercise than a pun
00:09:28 <exaltation> in Russian, "shitwise, brown" and "pun" actually sound the same.
00:09:37 <oerjan> (a popular norwegian joke about swedes because it's one of the few they cannot properly reverse on us)
00:10:11 * ehird considers asking #lojban for some Lojban puns translated to English
00:10:37 <oerjan> well popular among norwegian mathematicians, i guess there's some limitation there
00:13:19 <exaltation> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:No_soap_radio#Slightly_funny_after_all.3F
00:13:22 <oerjan> also i cannot find it on google
00:14:10 <ehird> exaltation: the issue with that is that it isn't funny.
00:14:27 <ehird> in fact i find it funnier as a surrealist joke.
00:14:58 * oerjan for once agrees with ehird that something isn't funny
00:16:28 <oerjan> wouldn't that be cofunny, rather
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00:52:37 <oerjan> he used to be an alt, but now he's a baryton
00:54:35 * oerjan notes the english terms are not that
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03:35:08 * oerjan realizes he's forgotten to eat
03:41:29 <ais523> oerjan: alto, baritone
03:55:25 <ais523> they aren't even English words in the first place IIRC
03:55:53 <oerjan> music terms are italian mostly
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08:11:48 <AnMaster> <oerjan> <MizardX> 182 hits on google for "tejped" <-- the English word would be "taped"
08:12:39 <MizardX> I know, but a few hundred other swedes does not seem to.
08:15:29 <AnMaster> MizardX, wait you are a Swede too?
08:16:29 <AnMaster> nåja, det var ju inte så svårt att lista ut vad some menades... Snarare vore det svårt för någon som inte kan svenska.
09:08:19 <olsner> jag tror alla utlänningarna också lyckades lista ut vad det betydde
09:12:31 <fizzie> Misread "used to be an alt, but now he's a baryon". That sounds unlikely. "Composed mostly of baryons", maybe.
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13:24:20 <ehird> 01:12:31 <fizzie> Misread "used to be an alt, but now he's a baryon". That sounds unlikely. "Composed mostly of baryons", maybe.
13:24:30 <ehird> barons are just very big baryons
13:25:47 <fizzie> "No results found for "biggest baryon ever"."
13:26:35 <ehird> biggestbaryonsxxx.com
13:36:43 <ehird> Tee hee, Christians are pissed off because Ricky Gervais is making a movie about a world where there's no lying. In it, religion does not exist.
13:40:58 * ehird installs himself some Windows 7 RC.
13:41:04 <ehird> (on real hardware)
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13:50:02 * ehird boots ubuntu to wipe partitions to install window
13:52:49 <fizzie> They could make a silly only-single-application-process version of Windows (like there was that "Starter" edition of vista with three-simultaneous-apps) and sell that under the brand name Window.
13:53:42 <ehird> fizzie: there's a windows 7 starter too
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15:08:46 <ehird> anyone know of an efficient way to rm a shitload of f iles?
15:08:48 <ehird> rm -r is painfully slow
15:10:50 <fizzie> For ext2, forcibly unlink the dir with debugfs and let e2fsck sort it out later. You'll end up with most of the files in lost+found, I guess, but you didn't specify you wanted a *good* solution.
15:11:10 <ehird> I'm removing around 1,000,000 files
15:11:33 <labo> copy everithing to a new FS :P
15:12:40 <fizzie> Unless you happen to have a safe-for-directories unlink() syscall, I doubt you'll get it done faster than rm, discounting any solutions that involve creating a new file system.
15:14:00 <ehird> I'm freeing about 100GB of space so I can comfortably fit Windows 7 RC x64...
15:14:15 <ehird> I hope a 32-bit game circa 1999 will work fine with it :P
15:14:22 <ehird> (Probably, amirite?)
15:14:27 <ehird> If not I'll just install 32-bit XP.
15:14:28 <AnMaster> ehird, dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/partition_in_question
15:14:40 <ehird> And crack it since it has a 5-install activation limit.
15:14:44 <ehird> AnMaster: That does not delete X files.
15:14:48 <ehird> That deletes X+Y files.
15:15:03 <AnMaster> ehird, unless the set of files on the partition happens to be X
15:16:36 <ehird> So, for the... second, I think, time since I've got this iMac, the widescreen is an issue.
15:16:47 <ehird> First time was a game... second time will be a game.
15:17:21 <ehird> I guess I'll buy an adapter from whatever display port of the week this iMac used to DVI and plug it into the old, crappy 19" LCD.
15:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well I have non-widescreen on desktop and it is still an issue.... 1400x1050 isn't very common
15:17:35 <AnMaster> usually I run the game in question in window-mode
15:17:42 <ehird> Though that doesn't solve the fact that it runs at, uh, 640x480 I think.
15:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, well window mode should work fine for that
15:17:53 <ehird> I think I used to play it on that old 17" Compaq CRT.
15:18:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but there's a large nostalgia factor, and windowing ruins that.
15:18:09 <ehird> Also, black bars > desktop.
15:18:15 <ehird> But neither are very good.
15:18:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well using 640x480 will frankly look like shit on any non-CRT
15:18:33 <ehird> I have this crappy 15" Axion CRT, but it'd need calibrating.
15:18:48 <ehird> AnMaster: The game doesn't exactly have spectacular graphics :P
15:19:13 <AnMaster> black boarders around 640x480 in the center of the screen?
15:19:40 <ehird> AnMaster: That's my current plan, but eh.
15:19:50 <ehird> Not only will it have LCD scaling artifacts, it'll be distracting.
15:20:26 <ehird> Actually, hmm, it might have a configurable resolution. Not widescreen though, obviously.
15:20:31 <ehird> Also that's sort of nostalgia-ruining.
15:20:32 <GregorR> "Boarders" are people who pay to "board", i.e. live in your home :P
15:20:47 <GregorR> But apparently AnMaster has a problem with black boarders.
15:21:06 <ehird> Yeah, the resolution is configurable - there's a screenshot here of it running at 1600x1200.
15:21:14 <ehird> It looks upsettingly hi-def.
15:21:34 <AnMaster> GregorR, well it was pretty clear from the context that it didn't refer to that. I certainly didn't think of that meaning of the word before you mentioned it... though I have heard it before once or twice iirc
15:21:47 <ehird> GregorR: Who wants to tell him you were joking?
15:21:57 <GregorR> Except that that's the only meaning of the word "boarder", you were looking for the word "border" :P
15:22:24 <GregorR> What fun is the universe if I can't poke fun at a simple typo :P
15:22:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I am aware of that it could possibly be interpreted as funny by some people. However personally I wouldn't classify it as a joke
15:23:01 <ehird> some days I try not to be angry at AnMaster
15:23:04 <ehird> today is not one of those days
15:23:09 <ehird> AnMaster: SHUUUUUUUUT UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP
15:23:40 <AnMaster> GregorR, in fact when I first noticed I had typoed with that a there I was thinking about if you could possibly be joking about pirates or similar
15:23:57 <AnMaster> well they board ships don't they?
15:24:15 <fizzie> ehird: It's the Windows 7 in you that's making you not be unangry.
15:24:17 <AnMaster> and didn't make a lot of sense in the context of "racist"
15:24:36 <ehird> fizzie: I should install Windows 98 instead. :)
15:24:45 <ehird> But I'm not sure the sequel would run on that!
15:24:49 <ehird> <AnMaster> SQL HUR HUR
15:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, um... what? I didn't get that joke...
15:25:56 <AnMaster> oh you mean like that... right... not very funny. If you want to make a bad joke, why not attribute it to yourself... since I wouldn't have thought of that...
15:26:28 <ehird> Indeed, you'd have probably thought of something even less funny and signed it with a ;P.
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15:27:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking of something like "why not xp?" followed by some joke about "experience" but I couldn't think of anything good
15:28:06 <ehird> XP will be what I'll try if Windows 7 doesn't work.
15:28:33 <ehird> But I said 98 (which almost certainly wouldn't work on this iMac) because it was the latest Windows at the time the game was released.
15:29:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect using a vm would work better, unless it is 3D
15:29:26 <ehird> And the sequel is also 3D, circa 2003.
15:29:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman_2:_The_Great_Escape. It's good. At least I think so, and that opinion may be tainted by having played it when I was a yung'un.
15:30:17 <ehird> I haven't played it for N years.
15:30:25 <ehird> [ehird:/] % sudo rm -rf Previous\ Systems.localized
15:30:25 <ehird> rm: Previous Systems.localized: Directory not empty
15:30:47 <ehird> Got created while deleting, presumably.
15:31:15 <ehird> Yes, well, .DS_Store is a rather odd wart.
15:31:36 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayman_2:_The_Great_Escape#Voice_Cast ;; hahaha
15:31:47 <ehird> (They just speak gibberish over the subtitles, at least in the PC version)
15:32:08 <AnMaster> I mean, what is so funny about that section.
15:32:11 <ehird> (They just speak gibberish over the subtitles, at least in the PC version)
15:32:21 <ehird> It doesn't seem like something worth hiring a voice cast over
15:32:30 <ehird> (Jack Black[citation needed] as Globox ;; really?)
15:32:36 <ehird> I find *that* hard to believe
15:33:24 <AnMaster> ehird, gibberish like for example Donald Duck did in old Disney movies? Or even worse?
15:33:55 <ehird> "Womi knee. Eksioo geh!" is a bad transcription of what I remember hearing.
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15:34:23 <AnMaster> what on earth.. aspell doesn't think "movie" is a valid word...
15:34:43 <ehird> Merge those two damn dialect dictionaries.
15:34:45 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the UK word? that
15:35:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well same as the Swedish word then.
15:35:16 * ehird starts boot camp assistant
15:36:02 <AnMaster> ehird, rendering bug or intended? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ratman_2.jpg
15:36:06 <ehird> (A flaw of Rayman 2 that I did not realise until now: Sure, so the enemies are robot pirates. WHERE ARE THE NINJAS?)
15:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: His hair also functions as a helicopter-type spinny thing that makes him float.
15:36:38 <ehird> Also, he uses his body as a basketball if you don't press anything for a while.
15:36:48 <ehird> So, er, yes, intentional.
15:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well... weird super powers isn't unusual... ;P
15:37:23 <ehird> Then you won't be surprised to know that he can form orbs of energy with his hand and throw them at things!
15:38:12 <AnMaster> on the other hand, enemies can't hit what you don't have....
15:38:21 <AnMaster> hm that sounds like innuendo...
15:38:39 <ehird> For some values of "innuendo"
15:39:20 <ehird> Rayman 2 may be the game with the hardest final battle ever...
15:42:32 <ehird> You're on a weird thing that flies forward constantly, and you can turn up/down/left/right. If you bash into any of the walls, you die. If you fall into the lava, you die. If you bash into *anything*, you die. If you go up a tunnel that gets slimmer and slimmer there's an orb, which you have to pass going downwards, not going towards it. Then you get an orb on its exhaust, which you can then shoot backwards. You have to shoot it at both stilts (getting one t
15:42:33 <ehird> that the end boss thingy is in, at which point he falls down a bit or something. Then you can hit him a few times before he goes back up. His health bar is almost the width of the entire screen and one shot barely affects him; yours is more like a quarter of the screen. If you die, you lose some health and he regains all his. Also, all this time, he is occasionally shooting ... something at you, which tracks you and makes you die if it hits you. You have to
15:42:34 <ehird> shoot it or lose its trail, and this takes like 15 seconds.
15:43:01 <ehird> Also the second bit but it's comprehensible without (just lost an "either")
15:43:13 <ehird> *stlts (getting one twice), to be specific.
15:44:40 * ehird gives Windows 64GB (so that OS X has 72GB free)
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15:52:15 <ehird> This thing freezes when I try and resize my boot partition :-(
15:52:23 <ehird> Maybe gparted will work.
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16:47:08 <AnMaster> oh and I see <Tobi_> hello in scrollback too... Hi Tobi_ (whoever you are)
16:47:29 <oerjan> Tobi_ or not Tobi_, that's the question
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17:39:41 <AnMaster> just want to make one thing clear: this is about esoteric programming languages, not esoterica. A lot of people stray in here thinking it is about the other stuff
17:41:11 <Tobi_> I joined the brainfuck channel this afternoon, as I am intrested in brainfuck, but it was pretty silent there so I decided to come here
17:41:44 <AnMaster> it has a separate channel? heh
17:42:09 <lament> but how is this channel not about esoterica?
17:42:13 <lament> ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
17:42:16 <Deewiant> I keep hearing this "lot of people" stuff and have still to see anybody mistaking this for the other kind of esoterica
17:42:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I think it happend five times when I was reading the channel this summer.
17:42:48 <fizzie> I think I saw one once.
17:43:40 <Tobi_> so, you are all esoteric programmers? :)
17:44:30 <Tobi_> I read about it in a magazine so I tried brainfuck
17:44:53 <lament> was it a porn magazine?
17:44:58 <lament> we're not into that kind of brainfuck.
17:45:28 <pikhq> lament: Well, I'm pretty sure we've had a few discussions of esoterica -- but that's just our studious devotion to not being on topic. :P
17:46:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Esoteric programming languages.
17:47:07 <Tobi_> I wondered if there is any forum dedicated to esoteric programming languages
17:47:22 <AnMaster> sketchy idea for new esolang: something based on esoterica... taroc(spelling?) cards for representing the stack or something
17:47:53 <Deewiant> Although the original word is something closer to taroc, IIRC
17:47:54 <lament> give a different meaning to each card
17:47:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Tarot cards are not "based on esoterica", BTW.
17:48:05 <lament> make a restriction that you can only use N decks
17:48:19 <lament> the challenge is to write a program that only uses N decks of cards
17:48:20 <pikhq> Though used in esotericism, they are primarily playing cards.
17:48:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, mhm. Shows how little I know about that sort of stuff
17:49:07 <pikhq> (with absurd amounts of esoteric symbolism added in, for odd historical reasons)
17:49:14 <AnMaster> lament, wonder if you could still make it tc... hm
17:49:35 <lament> AnMaster: not for any fixed N, no
17:49:36 <AnMaster> well you would need some other storage form in addition for tc-ness then
17:49:57 <lament> i mean it more like a golf challenge
17:50:10 <AnMaster> well maybe you could use the heap of crystal balls or something
17:50:11 <lament> "I wrote a bubblesort in 3 decks, can you do it in 2?"
17:50:40 <lament> and then possibly you could analyze the program to predict your future
17:50:46 <AnMaster> lament, still need to work out some interesting semantics for it
17:51:05 <AnMaster> for example, it seems reasonable that program operation should somehow be affected by phase of moon
17:51:30 <lament> and your date of birth
17:51:59 <lament> and the currently active zodiac sign
17:52:18 <AnMaster> lament, isn't that related to bad newspapers?
17:53:24 <lament> that's not really its fault, is it?
17:53:36 <lament> astrology doesn't concern itself with bad newspapers
17:53:42 <lament> bad newspapers concern themselves with astrology
17:53:51 <AnMaster> lament, well, I was trying to make a joke about the horoscope column found it some (many?) newspapers
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17:58:31 <AnMaster> lament, wait what about making it so that the program had to select a date for which the horoscope did what it wanted? Would of course be incredibly hard to write anything in it :)
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17:58:40 <AnMaster> and you could store it as zero size file
17:59:12 <AnMaster> modification timestamp could encode the date or something
17:59:42 <AnMaster> hm no, you need creation date too, and at least *nix systems doesn't store that...
18:07:09 <AnMaster> lament, do astrology care about location too?
18:08:48 <lament> only about the local time
18:09:19 <lament> i.e. the exact position of the planets at the moment of birth
18:09:45 <lament> (hm, that's not local time. But I think local time is important too, somehow - perhaps I'm wrong)
18:10:43 <lament> wp says, "The horoscope serves as a stylized map of the heavens over a specific location at a particular moment in time."
18:10:47 <AnMaster> lament, but timezones are mostly political inventions...
18:11:05 <lament> and they have a sample
18:11:06 <lament> "A horoscope calculated for January 1, 2000 at 12:01:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time in New York City, New York, USA (Longitude: 074W00'23" - Latitude: 40N42'51")."
18:11:57 <AnMaster> lament, ok so file format is trivial: <date of file creation>\n<GPS coordinates for birth location> and encode the period the horoscope should be made for as the modification time stamp
18:12:26 <fizzie> There's no real creation time, but there's ctime, which is almost as good. You'll just have to make sure to preserve it.
18:13:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, ctime isn't creation time indeed. However I always fail to remember what exactly it is instead
18:13:32 <fizzie> Inode-status-change-time; though it's standardicity had some problems. It might not have been quite well-specified.
18:14:07 <fizzie> Ctime's usually updated by changes in owner/group/mode and such.
18:14:37 <AnMaster> for idiomatic coding in this language the programmer should actually visit the location at the specified time and create the file then!
18:14:55 <AnMaster> of course, most programmers wouldn't do it the idiomatic way.
18:16:10 <fizzie> Anyway, not very many bits in the typical timestamps, not too many different possible programs. Though maybe if you allow unlimited precision in the GPS coordinates.
18:16:50 <AnMaster> also btw how is the conversion from date/time/location to "Avoid tall strangers. A fried is important to you. ..." work?
18:18:16 <fizzie> But there are many lookup tables involved, I believe.
18:19:45 <fizzie> "I don't believe in astrology; I'm a Sagittarius and we're skeptical." - Arthur C. Clarke (No idea about the origin or exactness of the quote.)
18:20:43 <fizzie> "Each planet has its own aspects and influences, much like the signs. How the influence is exerted upon the subject depends on which sign the planet appears in, which other planets are present and if the planet is in retrograde motion. The positions of the planets relative to one another are important, as are various angles and mathematical calculations based on all of these factors."
18:21:07 <fizzie> That gives you a lot of possible numbers, each of which you can probably then look up in suitable books.
18:23:19 <AnMaster> "Having constructed the horoscope, the astrologer can begin the task of interpreting the chart. This interpretation depends upon which branch of horoscopic astrology is being used."
18:24:36 <fizzie> Moving "backwards" w.r.t. everything else; obviously only when viewed from some particular place, in this case Earth.
18:24:46 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_retrograde_motion is the type of thing they mean.
18:24:53 <AnMaster> the algorithm described on wikipedia reminds me of a cipher...
18:25:31 <AnMaster> one of those that use a weird table and with multiple rounds
18:28:04 <fizzie> The apparent backwards-going is what makes life difficult for all those people who insist on placing the Earth in the center of the solar system.
18:29:10 <fizzie> "By this time each planet had been provided with from 40 to 60 epicycles to represent after a fashion its complex movement among the stars. Amazed at the difficulty of the project, Alfonso is credited with the remark that had he been present at the Creation he might have given excellent advice." quotes wikipedia on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle
18:29:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, yet astrology wouldn't care at all about a comet on collision course with earth? Surely that should end up as "you will likely have a bad day today"?
18:31:41 <fizzie> There's a lot of stuff on the sky they don't care about.
18:32:26 <fizzie> Like Pluto's other dwarf planet friends.
18:32:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, pluto isn't even the largest dwarf planet iirc?
18:33:03 <fizzie> Eris has more mass, yes.
18:34:05 <AnMaster> why on earth did "Eris" make be think of esr...
18:34:21 <fizzie> It's also a bit further away, though, so I think it might have less of a gravitational influence. Still, at perihelion it seems to be closer than Pluto at aphelion.
18:34:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, err? closest point? and point furthest away?
18:36:07 <fizzie> I couldn't really avoid that, since those are the terms used in the heavenly-body info-box.
18:41:15 <fizzie> In any case.. let's see, Pluto has some 1.3*10^22 kg at 6*10^9 metres, so F = G*m1*m2/r^2 means the gravitational attraction between Pluto and a rather largeish 4-kg newborn is... about 100 nano-Newtons. The same force would be caused by Earth's gravity if you put a "brick" weighting 10 µg on the baby.
18:41:58 <fizzie> Of course it's not about gravity, it's about "influence" by some other, more inexplicable means.
18:42:15 <fizzie> Maybe the non-planets just don't have that special something.
18:44:25 <fizzie> Besides, maybe they are counting Eris. Wikipedia's Astrology page lists as data-sources "the astrological planets, dwarf planets, the asteroids, the stars, the lunar nodes, Arabic parts and hypothetical planets."
18:46:54 <AnMaster> and what hypothetical planets?
18:47:53 <fizzie> Arabic parts are some sort of derived points from multiple things-in-the-sky, it seems. And there are quite a lot of hypothetical planets.
18:48:02 <fizzie> They're just like real planets, except they don't, you know, exist.
18:48:24 <fizzie> There's Lilith, for example, Earth's second moon.
18:48:39 <fizzie> You may not have noticed it; it's quite sneaky.
18:49:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, with all the sats and debris up there now I wouldn't be surprised if they formed a second moon at some point ;P
18:49:27 <fizzie> This one has about the same mass as the real Moon.
18:49:30 <AnMaster> but shouldn't astrology track that? After all it is a LOT closer
18:49:38 <fizzie> I don't think we've hauled that much stuff up there yet.
18:49:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, maybe it is made of that infamous dark matter?
18:50:11 <fizzie> It's "mostly invisible", but I can't quite seem to find out why.
18:50:21 <fizzie> Possibly because the idea makes absolutely no sense.
18:50:43 <fizzie> It's just so dark, it seems.
18:50:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, how insane on a scale from 0 to time cube?
18:51:28 <fizzie> I'm not a Time Cube scholar, but pretty insane. Though I guess second-moonism isn't any stranger than flat-earthism.
18:52:22 <AnMaster> wonder what happened to ehird... didn't he said he would just resize some partition? that was quite a while ago...
18:52:52 <fizzie> There are some partitions man was not meant to resize.
18:53:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah I think macs have EFID partitions or something
18:53:53 <AnMaster> GUID partition tables, but EFI partitions
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18:54:59 <fizzie> I don't know anything about the Intel macs; the old "Apple Partition Map" mess was big enough.
18:56:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh? I have used OS 9 but I never messed with the partitions on it... 3.2 GB harddrive. more than one partition would have been pointless
18:56:09 <AnMaster> so tell me about this interesting mess
18:57:25 <fizzie> Yes, well, I had that MkLinux-booter-based Debian on my PPC mac. It's just that there's more partitions than one would think would be necessary; the partition map itself is a partition, for example. And there were some kinds of I-don't-know-how-it-works "driver partitions".
18:57:42 <AnMaster> "the partition map itself is a partition, for example" <-- sounds kind of neat...
18:58:06 <fizzie> I think the PPC-iBook's partition table, as seen from mac-fdisk in Ubuntu, is still quite complicated. I could check it out if you're interested.
18:58:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, and the driver partition hm... I remember that you had a "update disk drivers" option or something in the disk tool thingy on old macs
18:59:57 <fizzie> "Often the first partition on a SCSI disk, following the partition map, is the driver partition that contains the actual device driver used to communicate with the disk. (There is, however, no requirement that the driver partition be the first partition on a disk.)"
19:00:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how is that driver loaded.... I see a bootstrapping problem here...
19:01:06 <fizzie> I think you load it using the openfirmware-forth-based driver directly provided by the device, or some such trick.
19:01:13 <fizzie> I don't really know the details, though.
19:01:29 <fizzie> That sort of device-driver-trickery was used by the Sparcs, anyway.
19:01:54 <AnMaster> well sounds plausible. boot loader on x86 uses bios to load the kernel (which usually has it's own driver later on)
19:03:05 <fizzie> Yes, it's just even cleverer since you can put the FCode (their forth-bytecode) driver directly on ROM on the device -- it's not like it's very many bytes -- and then use that for rudimentary access. And of course the driver you can read from the disk is then the sensible higher-performance one.
19:03:39 <fizzie> And the FCode driver's platform-independent, so the same thing would work on Sun systems and Macs.
19:05:01 <fizzie> I guess EFI has some sort of similar bytecode-based thing, actually.
19:06:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, so you would need different harddrives for sparc/ppc than traditional x86?
19:06:28 <AnMaster> also I thought it was for disk controller
19:06:44 <AnMaster> as in, the bit on the mobo that talks with the disk using ATA commands
19:07:48 <AnMaster> well for pci based scsi controllers or such, a forth based "basic firmware" would indeed make sense
19:09:21 <fizzie> The firmware stuff was used in PCI card devices in general. I'm not quite sure what the exact deal is with disk controllers, I guess their drivers are in the firmwarey parts anyway, and can be used to load the driver partition.
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19:25:10 <fizzie> That is not dead which can eternal lie.
19:26:13 <fizzie> In fact I am slightly hopeful that I could get something done on that front, now that I've gotten the thesis stuff out of the way.
19:26:49 <Deewiant> Perhaps we will see a JIT TRDS one day
19:28:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does TRDS require that the interpreter supports t?
19:29:19 <Deewiant> No, but you can't really do much with it without t :-P
19:30:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would mycology gracefully handle a interpreter with TRDS but without t?
19:30:30 <Deewiant> mycotrds requires t right at the start IIRC
19:30:54 <AnMaster> so it won't infini-loop or something silly like that
19:31:15 <Deewiant> Oh, but of course you can jump to the past and do stuff without having t
19:31:26 <Deewiant> Although if you've implemented that, t is probably one line of code
19:31:49 <Deewiant> If you want to make a DS9K, implement TRDS but not t :-P
19:32:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and then show it to Mike Riley?
19:33:37 <Deewiant> At least you don't have to track IP IDs since all IPs will have the same ID
19:36:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw would you say icc or gcc is best in general?
19:37:25 <Deewiant> I don't know, I haven't used icc much and I haven't compared C/C++ compilers at all, really
19:37:47 <AnMaster> I would assume icc is better on intel cpus... and that is true for cfunge on my old pentium 3... but for my core 2 duo laptop... gcc is more than twice as fast
19:38:35 <Deewiant> I would assume that they're different and there's no "in general" winner :-P
19:39:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but I wouldn't have expected such a large difference... but then it seems that for more long running programs the difference is much smaller. Possibly icc has a lot more setup code before it gets to the actual program
19:40:29 <Deewiant> They implement somewhat different optimizations in different ways *shrug*
19:58:37 <AnMaster> btw... does course literature writers in US get paid by the word or something? Course literature in English seems to be pretty verbose, while ones in Swedish seems to be trying to pack as much knowledge into as few pages as possible instead.
19:59:32 <AnMaster> (this observation is based on a total of 6 books in math and programming, three of them in English)
20:00:03 <AnMaster> (oh and personally I would prefer something between those two extremes)
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21:39:51 <ehird> surprisingly, my partition surgery worked perfectly, first time
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22:38:11 <ehird> I wonder when http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI will change URI :P
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23:06:45 * oerjan notes the moon is fuwuoowoooowooooooooo, er full
23:07:29 <ehird> the keys are like right next to each other.
23:08:28 <ehird> http://bash.org/?901460 ;; this is a bash quote approved THIS YEAR
23:08:49 <ehird> does anyone want to tell them that there's only ONE apple computer-related product you can buy with one button?
23:09:04 <ehird> and it's their budget notebook?
23:09:11 <ehird> Deewiant: I linked that earlier
23:09:13 <ehird> but it didn't get through
23:09:19 <ehird> [22:39] ehird: surprisingly, my partition surgery worked perfectly, first time
23:09:19 <ehird> [22:02] ehird: http://imgur.com/5jxA3.png
23:09:27 <ehird> HOW DID THAT HAPPEN
23:09:42 <ehird> did the clocks just change on me or something? :P
23:09:58 <ehird> or maybe I had the worst ntp lag evar
23:10:24 <Deewiant> The first time was right, at least
23:10:25 <Deewiant> 2009-09-03 23:39:57 ( ehird) surprisingly, my partition surgery worked perfectly, first time
23:11:00 <ehird> yes. I was pretty worried about that, incidentally, since at the end I discovered amongst the details that growing the filesystem to fit the new partition wasn't supported
23:11:07 <ehird> but it seems to have worked
23:11:14 <ehird> and I can install windows at my leisure
23:11:27 <ehird> anyone want to sell me a crappy CRT? :-)
23:12:13 <ehird> (right clicking on my disk, an entry is "duplicate". I am tempted to ask it to copy my disk to itself by clicking...)
23:12:23 <ehird> aw, it complains that the disk is in use
23:12:45 <oerjan> hm there's the old black and white tv in the closet, it's _really_ crappy
23:13:03 <ehird> I doubt it has a VGA port
23:13:10 <ehird> also, I kind of want colour :P
23:13:24 <oerjan> well, you _did_ ask for crappy
23:13:52 <ehird> The CRT I used was a second-hand Compaq V70
23:14:19 <ehird> Googling, a site claims its max resolution was 1280x1024; bullshit. With PowerStrip I got like ... high resolutions.
23:14:36 <ehird> Admittedly it was flickery as all fuck, and text was so small as to be unreadable, but I got used to it because MOAR PIXELZ.
23:15:17 <ehird> "17-inch (15.67-inches viewable)" —Business Wire, July 22 1996, on that monitor
23:15:42 <ehird> also, it refers to it as value-line
23:15:43 <ehird> pretty much sums it up
23:16:17 <ehird> but it displayed pixels blurrily. at 120hz no less if you used 800x600 or lower
23:16:28 <oerjan> 10:07:09 <AnMaster> lament, do astrology care about location too?
23:16:30 <ehird> there was barely *any* flicker!
23:16:58 <ehird> oerjan: when can I expect a b nomic horoscope?!
23:17:03 <oerjan> the ascendant and the houses in particular
23:17:19 <ehird> i fully expect your personal interpretation of it, too!
23:17:43 <oerjan> ehird: you could just download astrolog like i did for agora, assuming it still exists
23:17:55 <oerjan> and the interpretations were autogenerated by it
23:17:56 <ehird> oerjan: you forever tainted it with that bitingly sarcastic page!
23:18:03 <ehird> its aura is now unaligned; crooked.
23:18:14 <ehird> no, B Nomic needs a sincere eye
23:18:42 <ehird> ofc the horoscope will inevitably be "You are what the fucking christ jesus get therapy man."
23:21:31 <oerjan> hm fourth anniversary that would have been 1997
23:21:38 <oerjan> within my atheist period
23:22:42 * oerjan wonders why the file dates are 2002 - oh right, that's when i had to move things out of the math institute account
23:24:32 <oerjan> (in other words, don't expect quite the same level of sarcasm from me today)
23:29:35 <oerjan> <AnMaster> also btw how is the conversion from date/time/location to "Avoid tall strangers. A fried is important to you. ..." work?
23:29:43 <oerjan> avoid tall fried strangers
23:30:01 <oerjan> they might be grumpy after frying
23:30:25 <ehird> oerjan: I said it because of the top header
23:30:41 <ehird> "(30 June 2007: The ruleset links below have long since gone stale, but Agora still lives on at www.agoranomic.org. Oh, and since my views on divination have changed since then as well, it was only appropriate synchronicity that I did not remember what day this was until after I decided to finally follow Zefram's suggestion to make a note about the new site.)"
23:31:28 <ehird> ok, you can buy one of Unicomp's Model M clones in black, with blank black keycaps
23:31:39 <ehird> das keyboard is instantly obsolete
23:32:19 <oerjan> ehird: said _what_ because of the top header?
23:32:28 <ehird> oerjan: asking for a b nomic horoscope
23:38:32 <oerjan> in the secret lair of Dr. Evil,
23:40:19 <oerjan> his real-o-matic detects a fourth wall infraction.
23:40:39 <ehird> http://store.theonion.com/che-wearing-che-t-shirt-t-shirt-p-172.html ;; GregorR, you know what to do
23:42:10 <oerjan> you mean we want a picture of GregorR wearing the GregorR wearing the GregorR t-shirt t-shirt.
23:42:24 <ehird> i was thinking more like making a shirt of that shirt
23:42:25 <GregorR> I assumed Che wearing Che wearing Che wearing Che wearing Che ...
23:42:27 <ehird> but sure, that works too
23:42:33 <ehird> GregorR: oh, infinitely would work also
23:42:45 <oerjan> or perhaps alternating with Che...
23:42:46 <ehird> although the infinitely small ches might start demanding equal pixel rights
23:43:12 <ehird> (real) gregor wearing che wearing gregor wearing che wearing ironic hipster tshirt
23:43:15 <ehird> wait, no, not that last part.
23:44:47 <ehird> getting tired at midnight is becoming irritating
23:45:00 <lament> hm, i might buy that che shirt :(
23:45:08 <ehird> guess I'll try and eke an hour or two more out of the day to mess up the schedule to make it more fun
23:45:13 <ehird> lament: that's so unhappy? :(
23:45:19 <oerjan> <fizzie> They're just like real planets, except they don't, you know, exist.
23:45:28 <oerjan> astrolog supported quite a few of them iirc
23:45:29 <ehird> EXISTENCE IS OPTIONAL
23:45:34 <lament> and the "YOU ARE DUMB" one, hehe
23:46:34 <ehird> lament: http://store.theonion.com/good-day-to-go-sailing,-if-youre-a-dick-new-p-1025.html is far more classy than "YOU ARE DUBM"!
23:47:04 <ehird> SAFARI HISTORY SEARCH WISHLIST
23:47:16 <ehird> 1. Don't freeze for seconds every time I type a character.
23:51:14 <oerjan> <AnMaster> fizzie, with all the sats and debris up there now I wouldn't be surprised if they formed a second moon at some point ;P
23:52:17 <oerjan> i think the low orbit ones are mostly within the roche limit, but the geostationary orbit at 36000 km might... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roche_limit
23:53:37 * ehird wonders whether it's possible to hack up a notebook with a custom keyboard
23:58:32 * ehird installs windows 7
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00:20:32 <Sgeo> How do I stop myself from asking stupid questions?
00:20:55 <ehird> turn on your deduction circuits
00:21:04 <ehird> also turn off any lingering ADHD transistors that may be firing
00:21:37 <oerjan> you don't. you just rise to a higher level where the questions are so clever other people don't realize they are stupid.
00:21:48 <ehird> knowing me I'm going to install this and the game won't be compatibl
00:21:54 <ehird> oh well, I can trivially put XP on instead
00:22:02 <ehird> so most of the work won't have been wasted if that's the cas
00:22:14 <oerjan> the danger here is not to end up in time cube land, it's nearly the same direction
00:22:33 <ehird> (right now i'm running a windows program with wine remastering a windows 7 RC x64 install CD using my already-burned copy that needs a 64-bit EFI, which I don't have)
00:23:20 <oerjan> ehird: there's just got to be a yo dawg in there somewhere
00:23:28 <ehird> more like an oh gawd
00:30:09 <Sgeo> My homework: http://codepad.org/F8rBjCL3
00:31:53 <ehird> in Sgeo's world, we are all intimately interested in the trivial C++ he was told to write
00:32:03 <ehird> (yeah yeah pot kettle :))
00:33:23 <ehird> WARNING: This image contains filenames and/or directory names that are
00:33:24 <ehird> NOT COMPATIBLE with Windows NT 3.51. If compatibility with
00:33:24 <ehird> Windows NT 3.51 is required, use the -nt switch rather than
00:50:16 <HackEgo> * Bruno, Brun, or Braun (died 2 February 880) was the Duke of Saxony from 866 to his death. He was the elder son of Liudolf, progenitor of the ... \ [23]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brun_(Saxony) \ * Bruun is a family name of Nordic origin. The meaning is brown (brun in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian). ...
00:51:02 <ehird> ahahahdahsdskgdk;jlfl;
00:51:17 <oerjan> ok that settles it, you are overly tired
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00:52:49 <ehird> tired, yes, but not overly
00:52:58 <ehird> zzo38: I have no opinion either way
00:53:08 <oerjan> with that joke? don't be ridiculous.
00:53:08 <ehird> just wanted to preempt any questions :P
00:53:41 <oerjan> preempted before prompted
00:53:44 <ehird> oerjan: it is to be noted that most of the time, only my externalities are ever tired; internally I'm still comprehending properly but, you know, my fingers just type "yawnsabutt".
00:53:57 <ehird> with that said, buttman, he has a cape and a butt,.
00:54:50 <oerjan> and while you are dreaming, it's all making sense too
00:55:21 <zzo38> In GameBoy codes, is it a good idea to make the background pattern tile $9C instead of tile $00, that's what I use for the clear-screen subroutine, it uses $9C (can you figure out why without looking at the code?)
00:55:39 <ehird> i have already answered
00:55:50 <zzo38> But I'm not asking you specifically.
00:55:57 <ehird> this amuses me: http://blog.wolfram.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/manipulate2.swf
00:57:23 * ehird installs windows 7 rc... again
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00:57:56 <zzo38> I am writing some GameBoy programs, maybe I can also make a brainfuck interpreter on GameBoy (I could make it compiled into Gameboy codes, make each brainfuck command []+-<>,. compiled into a RST command)
00:58:25 <zzo38> Other esolangs would be a bit harder though, but some of them can probably be done
01:03:12 <zzo38> + can become 34 - can become 35 < can become 2B > can become 23 . can become C7 , can become E7
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01:04:41 * ehird decides that a mediocre victory beats no victory, puts XP cd in
01:05:01 <oerjan> as long as it's not a pyrrhic one
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01:12:11 <zzo38> Why does x86 not have $00 is NOP but GameBoy does?
01:13:42 <oerjan> would you actually _want_ $00 to be NOP? it would mean if you accidentally jumped into zero-initialized memory you would just zip past it, perhaps into some real code...
01:14:09 <oerjan> much better to make it an exception of some kind...
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01:14:58 <oerjan> (not that i know what $00 actually does on x86 or anywhere else)
01:19:41 <oerjan> ^ul (KH)(A)(:*)(:*)::**^^(N!)**S
01:19:41 <fungot> KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!
01:22:52 <Ilari> X86 has 00 00 be one of: ADD [BX+SI],AL (16 bit addressing), or ADD [EAX], AL (32 bit addressing). X64 64-bit mode has it ADD [RAX], AL
01:24:41 <Ilari> What exactly it is is affected by address size but not bitness (since it happens to be byte-sized operation involving memory access).
01:25:14 <Ilari> IIRC, 00 00 00 00 in MIPS is a NOP.
01:31:38 <Ilari> X86 primary NOP is $90, which actually is instruction to swap value of AX/EAX with AX/EAX.
01:34:13 <zzo38> The reason I want $00 to be NOP is having to do with a code I wrote for copying a string to the display, the code is simplified when $00 is NOP
01:34:32 <zzo38> And now, see if you can figure out why I want $9C to be the background. (Think of it)
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02:30:11 <ehird> windows installed, now I just have to driver it up
02:30:15 <ehird> and then install 5 billion updates
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02:53:41 * oerjan suspect the flu is brewing within him
02:53:55 <oerjan> Nice having known you all
02:54:22 <ehird> oerjan: oink oink oink
02:54:41 -!- ehird has quit.
02:55:11 <oerjan> no thanks, living this once was more than enough...
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03:51:26 <ehird> it's...surprisingly snappy
03:51:36 <ehird> and the boot camp drivers are really good!
03:52:07 * ehird wonders if virus scanners are even worth bothering with, if you use a decent browser and don't do stupid stuff...
03:52:17 <ehird> of course, that is probably being too optimistic about security flaws in windows
03:52:46 <ehird> but hey, this is actually quite pleasant. chrome is nice
03:53:31 <ehird> actually I swear this is snappier than Safari/OS X, which makes me sad.
03:54:19 * ehird is dangerously close to liking windows here...
03:56:17 <coppro> ehird: it's great so long as you don't try to use it for anything
03:56:20 <coppro> I have a dual-boot myself
03:56:35 <ehird> coppro: true; I know Windows is always snappy to start with
03:56:44 <coppro> the real issue is that Windows bogs down far faster than other OSes
03:56:46 <ehird> but this is the first time it's actually flown
03:59:23 <ehird> Maybe someone should scientifically investigate how windows bogs down and write a daemon that stops whatever it is. :P
03:59:44 <ehird> Anyway, Windows always works the same for games, I find, so that's alright.
04:00:16 <ehird> And I *still* can't figure out how anyone could like the fisher price Luna interface over classic.
04:00:29 <ehird> Also, cleartype is still unreadable and ugly.
04:00:50 <coppro> ehird: mostly it's daemons I think
04:01:09 <coppro> also, "Luna" interface
04:01:21 <ehird> the default blue interface
04:01:34 <ehird> the olive isn't even an interface as opposed to a pukefest
04:01:40 <ehird> the silver is half-passable
04:01:49 <coppro> however, I'm not a big fan of classic
04:01:49 <ehird> but similar enough to classic that you might as well save the system resources
04:02:02 <ehird> if I wanted pretty, I'd reboot into OS X
04:02:15 <ehird> although windows 7 looks alright
04:02:29 <coppro> Oxygen hits a nice balance... functional, but not blocky
04:02:37 <ehird> Oh, and quick launch + the taskbar is still superior to the dock.
04:02:52 <ehird> (Though the Windows 7 somethingdockbarthing is even more superior.)
04:03:35 <ehird> I tried it in a VM (and so lacked a bunch of good features that require a halfway decent GPU) and it was good.
04:03:47 <coppro> it would be nice if the Linux developers could get themselves organized enough for something like the somethingdockbarthing
04:03:52 <ehird> It was better than every other Windows before it, which is a feat.
04:04:01 <ehird> coppro: Misnomer - "the linux developers"
04:04:17 <ehird> If someone builds it for, say, Gnome, then you could propose for Gnome to use it by default.
04:04:27 <coppro> the problem is the application writers
04:04:34 <coppro> it needs application support
04:04:36 <ehird> To be honest I'd use Windows 7 fulltime if I didn't know programming for it would be a bitch
04:04:51 <ehird> coppro: try ubuntu sometime, y'know? Linux doesn't suck any more
04:04:58 <coppro> ehird: that's what I'm doing
04:05:12 <ehird> coppro: There's your problem :P
04:05:24 * ehird ponders whether Windows Live Messenger is hideously bloated enough to explode on his system.
04:05:38 <ehird> But Pidgin is le crappy on Windows, and Miranda IM is fiddly to set up.
04:05:49 <coppro> Chatzilla works pretty well
04:05:57 <ehird> Chatzilla does not talk to MSN, and bitlbee sucks.
04:06:10 <ehird> For IRC I'll probably use mIRC or something.
04:06:19 * coppro shudders at the mention of mIRC
04:06:38 <ehird> Hey, don't knock mIRC. The scripting ... thing is an abomination, but it's a sturdy little... thing.
04:06:39 <coppro> um... what's with your version string?
04:06:51 <ehird> It's freenode's fucked up webchat thing
04:07:00 <ehird> I would use mibbit, but they blocked it because FREENODE IS RUN BY RETARDED MONKIES.
04:07:00 <coppro> CZ has JavaScript; though I've never actually tried to use it
04:07:27 <ehird> ugh, Chrome is unreasonably responsive
04:07:36 <coppro> apparently you are on Mozilla, AppleWebKit, "KHTML, like Gecko", Chrome, and Safari
04:07:37 <ehird> I feel like I've just upgraded my internet connection
04:07:48 <ehird> coppro: uh, that's what User-Agents are like
04:07:55 <ehird> all browsers do that
04:08:05 <coppro> sure, but not all at once
04:08:19 <ehird> IE is also Mozilla "compatible", for instance
04:08:23 <ehird> It's because of version sniffing
04:08:37 <ehird> "Mozilla" is sniffed for "not IE", so it goes in
04:08:43 <ehird> AppleWebKit is, well, WebKit
04:08:56 <ehird> "KHTML, like Gecko" is KHTML and getting Gecko-specific stuff since it'll probably work
04:08:59 <ehird> Chrome is because I'm using chrome
04:09:06 <ehird> and Safari is because Chrome uses WebKit, like Safari
04:09:10 <ehird> and thus the sniffers are satiated
04:09:58 <ehird> incidentally, my disk is F:!
04:10:20 <ehird> because the EFI partition thing is C:, some empty space would be D: but isn't because it's empty,
04:10:30 <ehird> and then there's empty space that would be G:
04:11:01 * coppro is happy with Windows not having access to the ext partition
04:11:11 <ehird> oh, it hasn't mounted OS X
04:11:16 <ehird> it just assigned it a drive letter in the installr
04:11:24 <ehird> assuming it would figure out how to talk to that partition later :-P
04:11:28 <coppro> is there an IFS module for it?
04:11:37 <ehird> I think Boot Camp 3 with Snow Leopard has that or something
04:12:00 <coppro> in any case, it may not be a great idea - Windows can't do Unix permissions and itself pretty insecure
04:12:05 <ehird> mirc looks... worrying bloated
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04:17:52 <ehird> that's a nice linespacing
04:17:55 <ehird> now can I change this font
04:17:57 <ehird> I hate terminal :P
04:18:01 <coppro> I think you're dropping the last character off every sentenc
04:18:20 <oerjan> yeah that is a known proble
04:19:01 <ehird> i checked the logs.
04:19:15 <ehird> hmm this is fixedsys, not terminal
04:19:50 <ehird> ok, a reason to hate windows: no, Arial is not an acceptable font to ship in place of something like Helvetica
04:20:00 <oerjan> we would have got away with it if not for those meddling log
04:21:26 <ehird> size 9 courier new seems acceptable when not antialiased
04:21:42 * ehird downloads windows live messenger against his better judgement
04:22:04 <coppro> ehird: do you really need all that stuff while on Windows?
04:22:13 <Sgeo> I tried it on the insistance of a friend. It didn't work
04:22:14 <coppro> it's not like you are planning extended trips, are you?
04:22:21 <ehird> coppro: considering I'm booted into it, it'd be nice to use it
04:22:26 <ehird> also, I am the epitome of laziness
04:22:48 * coppro is more lazy than ehird!
04:22:49 <ehird> and, well, clicking things on windows goes faster. my lazy organ has a vested interest in keeping me here.
04:22:53 <coppro> speaking of which... shit... homework]
04:23:05 <ehird> Asztal: weeeeeeeeeell?
04:23:11 <Sgeo> ehird, is this all an attempt to get some game working?
04:23:12 <Asztal> ehird: because windows live messenger is evil :(
04:23:23 <ehird> Asztal: the protocol or the client?
04:23:34 <ehird> Sgeo: that is the original intent of this escapade, yes.
04:23:44 <Asztal> the client is what I was referring to
04:24:04 <ehird> why's it evil? i mean it sucks yeah
04:24:13 <Asztal> it's always "install a virus scanner! look at my advertisements! look at msn today! get a webcam!" :(
04:24:20 <ehird> oh the ads right, point taken
04:24:21 <ehird> what do you use instead, anyhoo
04:24:26 <ehird> I'm out of the loop with windows... thingies
04:24:35 <Sgeo> I think I ended up renaming the executable, since its starting up was causing me pain and misery
04:24:37 <Asztal> well, I'm too lazy not to use it :D
04:24:39 <ehird> last I was in this circle miranda IM was the thing, and FUCK is that client a FUCKING BITCH to install
04:24:43 <ehird> well okay not install
04:24:47 <ehird> to get it halfway usable
04:24:52 <Sgeo> I hated Miranda IM
04:24:52 <ehird> requires at least an hour of effort
04:24:59 <ehird> once you had it working, coo, coo, great
04:25:08 <ehird> you just spend 94837593457 hours on an underfeatured client
04:25:11 <Asztal> there is a program called apatch that will remove the advertisements from it, and possibly the virus scanner requirement
04:25:11 <ehird> BET YOU FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF
04:25:19 <ehird> who remembers msn plus!
04:25:31 <Asztal> if you don't have a virus scanner, you're quite limited in file transfers :/
04:25:32 <Sgeo> I remember using some tool that did stuff with AIM
04:25:35 <ehird> oh, grr, mIRC's inconsistent copying behaviour
04:25:57 <ehird> also: holy crap chrome is fast
04:25:57 <Sgeo> I was testing something that was a bunch of insults based on a s/n
04:26:04 <ehird> it opens up as soon as i leave go of the icon
04:26:07 <Sgeo> Sending it to myself, then my friend's sister IMed me
04:26:11 <ehird> and every page so far has loaded as soon as i release my click
04:26:22 <Sgeo> "2 is the number of times I raped your sister" was sent to her, iirc
04:27:07 <Sgeo> ehird, use Silverex
04:27:24 <ehird> gtk is conspicuously non-native. also xchat kind of sucks.
04:27:37 <ehird> with gtk-wimp it'd be more native i guess
04:27:58 <ehird> I don't really feel like supporting the xchat team's money-grabbing, evil windows binary payment scheme though, by using their product
04:28:12 <Sgeo> ooh, GTK-Wimp looks hot
04:28:41 <ehird> It's what gimp on windows uses and stuff.
04:28:46 <ehird> It looks like, uhh, windows.
04:28:58 <ehird> Asztal: does live messenger uninstall without sacrificing babies?
04:29:08 <ehird> if so my lazy organ is directing me to the install button.
04:29:34 <Sgeo> ehird, deleting msnmsgr.exe or renaming it is enough to prevent the evil from starting up
04:29:49 <ehird> But is it in add/remove?
04:29:50 <Sgeo> But then, that's typically true of viruses too, if you find all the places they're hidden
04:29:55 <Sgeo> ehird, not sure, haven't checked
04:30:02 <ehird> Chrome complaint: checkboxes and the arrows on scrollbars don't show up when using Classic.
04:30:09 <ehird> The former being far more major than the latter.
04:30:45 <Asztal> I wasn't serious with the "dont!" thing really, it's almost usable these days
04:30:54 <ehird> does it use a lot of system resources?
04:30:59 <ehird> i'm cherishing this snappiness
04:31:07 <ehird> as an aside, it sure was nice to have bootcamp install every driver for me
04:31:25 <ehird> i just clicked next and sat there on my ass for five minutes while it reeled off a list of drivers it was installing, then ping!
04:32:06 <ehird> hmm, apparently i'm on service pack 2
04:32:12 <ehird> shouldn't it be trying to upgrade me to 3...
04:32:33 <ehird> oh, it's set to download updates at 3am
04:32:42 * ehird changes that to download em for me and let me choose when to install
04:32:58 <ehird> Asztal: "installing microsoft choice guard"
04:33:11 <ehird> that does not sound like a thing that i want on my disk.
04:33:19 <ehird> no, Microsoft, I do not want to use bing or MSN
04:33:36 <ehird> IT FORCES CLEARTYPE
04:33:54 <ehird> ok so it doesn't look to bad with segoe ui, still.
04:34:07 <ehird> wow, the dancing messenger people icon
04:34:10 <ehird> wasn't that in, like, msn 5
04:34:20 <ehird> i remember using msn 5!
04:34:50 <Asztal> microsoft choice guard sounds about as honest as trusted computing
04:35:04 <ehird> also the window chrome looks like vista
04:35:06 <ehird> just fuck that shit.
04:35:31 <ehird> "OBLITERATE IT ALL! ALL OF IT! ALL!"
04:36:00 <Sgeo> http://blog.marcocantu.com/blog/microsoft_choice_guard.html
04:36:41 <Asztal> Microsoft Real Player?
04:36:44 <ehird> microsoft will truly never get it, will they
04:37:27 <ehird> ok, first order of the day: replace mIRC
04:37:36 <Sgeo> So, apparently, it could end up fighting malware, or end up fighting anti-viruses?
04:38:19 <ehird> does hydrairc suck or not? it looks like it sucks but you can never tell with windows.
04:38:52 <ehird> limechat is available for windows
04:39:20 <ehird> although apparently only in japanese >_<
04:39:46 <ehird> X-Chat 2 no longer uses GTK+ Runtime EnvironmentGTK+ libraries are included in installer. You may use system's GTK+ runtime, thoughdeselect GTK+ durint X-Chat install.
04:39:50 * ehird installs a system-wide gtk
04:39:54 <ehird> because, you know, fuck such things.
04:40:09 <ehird> also god damn, why hasn't anyone told me how amazing chrome is?
04:42:04 <ehird> too lazy to install separate gtk
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04:47:16 <ehird> the MS-Windows theme doesn't actually use native widgets.
04:47:24 <ehird> for instance, menus don't fade in.
04:47:30 <ehird> this is arguably an improvement :P
04:49:24 <Asztal> that must be something I disable :)
04:49:30 <ehird> yeah, I disabled that now :P
04:49:45 <ehird> not menu shadows though.
04:49:49 <ehird> I like menu shadows.
04:51:29 <Asztal> "Slide open combo boxes" is the worst one though.
04:51:35 <ehird> can you disable this thingy
04:51:42 <ehird> where minimising goes to the tray
04:53:20 <ehird> holy crap, the volume buttons work and display a fascicile of the volume control HUD thing on os x :)
04:54:01 <ehird> ok, current task: get myself an IM client
04:55:42 <ehird> i guess pidgin might be acceptable on windows these days...
04:57:08 <ehird> Asztal: is it true that windows really does not have global spellchecking?
04:57:44 <ehird> ok, I'm hating it a bit now
04:57:56 <ehird> anyway i have to quit this because it's using gtk while gtk is installing because of pidgin SHOCK HORROR ->
04:58:02 <ehird> Alt-F doesn't work in xchat
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05:01:07 <ehird> sort of satisfied with this, I guses
05:02:12 <ehird> "Rearrange items on your hard disk to make programs run faster"
05:02:22 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to fix up a website that I strongly disagree with
05:02:23 <ehird> best way to say "Defragment disk" ever, or best way to say "defragment disk" ever?
05:02:30 <Sgeo> They use Java for pretty buttons!
05:02:30 <ehird> Sgeo: define fix up, define this website
05:02:46 <Sgeo> ehird, stop them using Java to display fancy buttons
05:02:48 <Sgeo> http://www.theprophecies.com
05:02:59 <Sgeo> And get rid of that useless page with Next->
05:03:14 <ehird> Sgeo: are you perhaps expecting better of kooks?
05:05:09 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm just so opposed to the horror, I feel compelled to do something
05:05:22 <ehird> Asztal: do you fathom at all why clicking the "updates! installlllll meeeeeeeeeee" icon makes it disappear then bother me soon after with no change?
05:05:22 <Sgeo> It would be easy to fix it up, just a little, and email the pages to the webmaster
05:05:35 <ehird> Sgeo: dude, these people are clinically delusional and insane
05:06:54 <Sgeo> Is this considered attempting to convert me? Because she said she wouldn't
05:06:55 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/zkp5rajablwpfxdwm8cqg
05:07:44 <ehird> Sgeo: dude, stop talking to these people
05:08:03 <ehird> it's as pointless as trying to reason with a mental inpatient except they're socially acceptable, thus bolstering their delusions
05:08:12 <Sgeo> I'm not going to try to debate her
05:08:13 <ehird> you may find more productive conversation in avenues such as "a brick wall"
05:08:28 <ehird> Sgeo: there is a fundamental gap in the religious mind between people and the unsaved
05:08:43 <ehird> it is unlikely you will get anywhere without them first converting you unless they think it'll help convert you
05:08:44 <Sgeo> "Is there a reason why you don't believe in God? (I am not going to judge you or try to convert you I am just very interested in people and what they believe and why they believe it. After all everyone has faith in something)"
05:08:52 <ehird> Disclaimer: by religious i mean fanatical here
05:09:15 <ehird> Sgeo: believe that if you want /shrug
05:09:48 * ehird runs windows update as a stopgap
05:11:49 <Sgeo> ehird, you know, I'm the one who started the conversation. I asked her what she does at church
05:12:19 <ehird> just so you know, you're fairly obviously trying to twist what I say in the direction you want it to go
05:13:20 <Sgeo> ..what direction do I want it to go? I'm not [consiously] trying to twist anything, I think
05:14:44 <ehird> 'she won't try and convert you, she'll respect whatever you say' etc
05:14:48 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:48 <ehird> Service Pack 3 Setup Error
05:14:48 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:48 <ehird> There is not enough disk space on F:\WINDOWS\$NtServicePackUninstall$ to install Service Pack 3. Setup requires a minimum of 4 additional megabytes of free space or if you also want to archive the files for uninstallation, Setup requires 4 additional megabytes of free space. Free additional space on your hard disk and then try again.
05:14:49 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:53 <ehird> ---------------------------
05:14:57 <ehird> the partition is 64gig
05:17:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("Galactic size partitions, now!").
05:24:27 * ehird installs other updates first
05:24:38 -!- Asztal has quit (".").
05:25:30 <ehird> "Download size (total): 34.9 MB
05:25:30 <ehird> Estimated time at your connection speed: 1 hour 0 minutes"
05:32:46 <Sgeo> "I think this conversation is starting to take a turn towards conversion talk. If you're ok with that, I'm ok with it. If you're not ok with it, feel free to ignore the rest of this email, and we'll change the subject."
05:32:56 <Sgeo> Is that a good way to begin this email?
05:36:28 <ehird> do you know what you're doing Sgeo?
05:36:30 <ehird> asking stupid questions.
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06:16:32 <ehird> that disk space thing was an efi-relate issue.
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06:57:57 <lament> he left before i could ask him if she's hot
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07:35:15 <ehird> eh, i guess i have to install emacs if i want a decent haskell editor on win32 :)
07:38:21 <ehird> windows, emacs... nazism...
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08:18:46 * Rugxulo is bored waiting for something to compile ...
08:22:48 <Rugxulo> ehird, what esolangs do you prefer anyways?
08:23:28 <ehird> for the traditionals: underload. unlambda. weirder: uhh, every single oklopol language
08:23:35 <ehird> oh, redivider is sorta fun too.
08:23:53 <Rugxulo> what's the deal with Unlambda anyways?
08:24:08 <ehird> oh, paintfuck is fun too
08:24:11 <ehird> Rugxulo: whadyamean
08:25:00 <ehird> also there's nothing I hate more than a hypocrite, and I'm currently running emacs on windows so feel free to stab me.
08:25:39 <ehird> oh, and the windows is relatively old... though that wasn't by choice
08:25:48 <ehird> it's almost enough to make a man believe in synchronicity
08:26:00 <ehird> asshole synchronicity.
08:29:05 <Rugxulo> relatively old? what version?
08:29:21 <Rugxulo> (I mean, XP can be considered relatively old although I find that ludicrous)
08:29:33 <ehird> 2002 is plain old, but it's SP3
08:29:37 <ehird> so it's just relatively old
08:29:41 <Rugxulo> SP3 was just this year or so, right?
08:29:59 <ehird> but Vista was a major reworking and 7 was a further refinement
08:30:04 <Rugxulo> ehird, I still use much much older software
08:30:06 <ehird> i don't think old is solely time-based
08:30:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: well, I installed this to use some old software
08:30:21 <Rugxulo> eh, Vista regressed in a lot of ways
08:30:23 <ehird> although it's a game, so that doesn't count
08:30:30 <ehird> also, yes, but it's still change
08:30:47 <ehird> Rugxulo: not really, because games don't get updates that make them "work better"
08:30:50 <ehird> beyond initial bug fixes
08:30:58 <ehird> there's no "made the plot less obtuse at this point"
08:31:20 <Rugxulo> but I guess for commercial stuff, probably not :->
08:31:56 <ehird> but damn, you windows guys are lucky for having a polished Chrome
08:32:05 <ehird> ridiculously polished
08:32:36 <lament> faster than firefox ON WINDOWS!
08:32:48 <Rugxulo> they've improved it a lot for other OSes lately, though
08:32:51 <ehird> it's like 2-3x faster than safari/osx in realtime, and feels like 5x faster than safari/osx subjectively
08:33:12 <Rugxulo> Safari and Chrome both use Webkit, I think
08:33:33 <ehird> but there's the javascript engine, the drawing code, ...
08:33:38 <Rugxulo> besides, V8 (or whatever) is also a lot faster (x86, ARM) although Safari always bragged about speed
08:33:56 <ehird> i mean, browsers don't just render a page and draw it all in the same way
08:34:03 <Rugxulo> well, to be completely honest, I think they used MSVC, which believe it or not may actually be better than GCC in some optimizations (don't ask me why!!!)
08:34:37 <Rugxulo> I love GCC to death, so it kinda annoys me that MSVC somehow does something better, and I personally refuse to use it (too bloated, annoying, non-compliant, etc.)
08:34:40 <ehird> I doubt it makes a difference at such a high level
08:34:47 <ehird> But gcc is kind of... crap
08:34:56 <ehird> It's free and supports a lot, that's all it has going for it
08:34:56 <Rugxulo> not crap, just weird, hard to maintain, etc.
08:35:10 <ehird> bad code, not very good optimisations, compiler itself is slow, etc.
08:35:13 <Rugxulo> besides, MSVC only targets x86 (and maybe ARM?), so it's probably easier to work on
08:35:25 <Rugxulo> only 4.2.1 and newer are v3
08:35:35 <ehird> apple are moving to llvm/clang totally for future os x
08:35:44 <ehird> most of the bundled apps in snow leopard are compiled with clang, IIRC
08:35:58 <Rugxulo> I knew they employed the Clang dude
08:36:03 <ehird> which is a pretty major leap from "experimental, might work" to "hey! let's compile the apps in our large-market commercial OS with it"
08:36:09 <ehird> Rugxulo: LLVM is pretty much an Apple project
08:36:18 <Rugxulo> well, FreeBSD 8 also imported Clang into their CVS tree
08:36:33 <Rugxulo> it started out separate from them, though, they just pay the guys to keep working on it
08:36:47 <Rugxulo> but yeah, GCC is damn slow, very annoying, but oh well ... what can ya do?
08:37:09 <Rugxulo> OpenWatcom is faster but slightly worse optimizations
08:37:16 <Rugxulo> heck, even "old" GCC 3.4.4 is twice as fast
08:37:53 <Rugxulo> I want to say some of that is all the constant garbage collection, but I think that's less of an issue
08:37:54 <ehird> no, apple software update, I do not want to install itunes or quicktime for windows because they are SHIT on windows
08:38:00 <ehird> I would like that driver update, however
08:38:06 <Rugxulo> 70 MB updates every freakin' time, so annoying ...
08:38:10 <ehird> Please do not tick both of them at once. It's sleazy.
08:38:32 <Rugxulo> oh, didn't Chrome just pioneer some ultra-good update compression diff thingy? (better than bzdiff or whatever)
08:38:43 <ehird> for binaries only, iirc
08:38:45 <ehird> they use it for updates
08:39:06 <Rugxulo> well, as you know, Chrome auto-updates on the fly all the time
08:39:25 <ehird> that's cool. also creepy.
08:39:40 * ehird wonders why he can't seem to put Windows into inverse letterbox mode
08:39:49 <ehird> (4:3 res on 16:10 display; black bars at either side)
08:40:00 <Rugxulo> there's probably a way :-)
08:40:01 <ehird> (I get the equivalent of the (stretched) variant of the resolutions from OS X)
08:40:11 <ehird> Rugxulo: it probably involves downloading some crappy shareware or something
08:40:21 <ehird> prolly easier to buy a 4:3 monitor.
08:43:42 <Rugxulo> BTW, I meant, "Unlambda probably requires somebody who knows what the hell lambda calculus is, eh?"
08:45:12 <ehird> you mean somebody not retarded?
08:45:14 <ehird> oops disregard that
08:46:04 <Rugxulo> you gotta admit it looks tough
08:46:10 <Rugxulo> well, so did Befunge until recently :-)
08:46:34 <Rugxulo> ```sk`````sk (not exactly clear cut, IMHO)
08:47:04 <Rugxulo> heh, one guy wrote an Unlambda interpreter in sed (!)
08:49:22 <ehird> <Windows> I see your drivers are being updated! FOUND NEW HARDWARE. FOUND NEW HARDWARE. FOUND NEW FUCKING HARDWARE, DAMMIT! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!
08:49:34 <ehird> Thank god I have the sound muted, at least.
08:51:00 <Rugxulo> have you used Vista before?
08:51:15 <ehird> Rugxulo: not that i know of, but I'm fairly familiar with it despite that.
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08:52:31 <Rugxulo> well, I suspect you will hate it
08:52:47 <Rugxulo> (although you could technically turn off UAC)
08:53:13 <ehird> eh, I toyed around with Windows 7 RC for a bit (I was going to try Windows 7 RC x64 first, but had issues with the 64-bit part; so I fell back to XP)
08:53:18 <ehird> the UAC is fine, really
08:53:22 <ehird> unless it was significantly worse in vista
08:53:41 <ehird> it's basically the same as e.g. ubuntu's administrative privileges dialog, from what I can tell
08:53:51 <ehird> anyway, restart time!
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08:55:46 <ehird> dear bluetooth thingy
08:55:51 <ehird> remove bluetooth icon means do that
08:55:54 <ehird> don't sit around there.
08:57:43 <Rugxulo> actually, I guess it's (semi-)moot how well / badly Vista behaves now that Win7 is out ... but then again, there are a lot of pre-existing copies, and not everyone will upgrade (e.g. me)
08:58:05 <Rugxulo> but you can't upgrade from XP anyways, gotta clean install
08:58:30 <ehird> yay it disappeared
08:58:37 <Rugxulo> and they nickel-and-dime us to death again with various restrictions depending on version purchased (e.g. no XP mode for home users)
08:59:08 <Rugxulo> I hear that 64-bit Windows works fine assuming you have suitable drivers
09:00:31 <Rugxulo> Vista has a different driver model, and some computers don't have XP drivers (I think)
09:00:52 <ehird> xp mode is kind of useless though
09:00:56 <ehird> since... everything works with vista
09:01:09 <Rugxulo> a lot of stuff still doesn't work with Vista
09:01:18 * Rugxulo isn't as big a fan of Windows as you think
09:01:29 <ehird> well yes, the circa 1990 windows-shipped utilities you use every day to calculate 2+2 probably don't.
09:01:32 <Rugxulo> even a lot of MS software initially didn't work on Vista !!
09:01:59 <Rugxulo> MS finally rewrote Calc for Win7 (it'd been more-or-less unmodified for a billion years)
09:02:33 <Rugxulo> same as for Freecell in Vista, finally got overhauled (apparently the same as the Win32s version from before 1995 or so)
09:03:08 <Rugxulo> 1990 probably had a lot of good software although 386s and 486s were the best out at the time
09:03:20 <Rugxulo> Win 3.0 came out in 1990 (heh)
09:03:21 <ehird> i'm using windows, w-w-w-w-indows 386
09:03:27 <ehird> so all my applications are running at once
09:04:05 <Rugxulo> Win NT 3.1 was from 1993 or so (I think)
09:04:11 <ehird> (you have seen that video right?)
09:04:26 <ehird> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4915875929930836239
09:04:33 <ehird> yes, it is an official microsoft promotional video
09:05:07 <Rugxulo> have you seen the MS-DOS 5 video? :-)
09:05:29 <ehird> i think so. also ballmer yelling to advertise windows
09:05:32 <ehird> but seriously, this takes the cake
09:06:02 <Rugxulo> no way, MS-DOS 5 was extremely cheesy
09:06:14 <ehird> Rugxulo: this isn't just _cheesy_, no no
09:06:15 <Rugxulo> it was a freakin' (white) rap video 8)
09:06:22 <ehird> this *warps reality*
09:06:49 <Rugxulo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfpYrem94q0
09:07:22 <ehird> there's a clipped version of the last, crack-headed 7 minutes, but that doesn't let you lure you in with some semblance of sanity
09:10:31 <Rugxulo> Windows/386 must be 2.1/386 (I guess??)
09:10:50 <ehird> i don't know if it overlaps windows
09:11:23 <Rugxulo> Win 3.0 (1990) could still run on an 8088 / CGA
09:11:32 <Rugxulo> 3.1 required a 286, and 3.11 (WfW) required a 386
09:12:01 <ehird> I used 3.11, but it wasn't for Workgroups.
09:13:34 <Rugxulo> this was obviously before MS stopped working on OS/2
09:13:50 <Rugxulo> yeah, I'm guessing this is Win2.1
09:14:01 <Rugxulo> (blind guess, never used that version)
09:15:05 <Rugxulo> okay, I guess this is the lame part (she's singing)
09:15:18 <Rugxulo> no, I think the MS-DOS 5 one is much lamer
09:15:40 <Rugxulo> why the hell did it zoom to her face???
09:15:50 * Rugxulo feels like he's watching a bad porno)
09:17:40 <Rugxulo> why are they dressed like barber shop quartets??
09:19:23 <Rugxulo> no, sorry, the MS-DOS 5 one is much lamer/funnier
09:21:25 <Rugxulo> what, you've seen it AND disagree?
09:21:33 <Rugxulo> 'cause if you haven't seen it ...
09:21:39 <ehird> i think i've seen it
09:22:09 <Rugxulo> him rapping with the backup singers
09:23:43 <Rugxulo> heh, you don't have to watch it again just on my account, but it was definitely funny
09:25:13 <ehird> it's ridiculous how choppy windows get if you move them
09:25:23 <ehird> c'mon, microsoft, it's like 2001 when you did this shit
09:25:31 <ehird> we have buffering!
09:28:26 * ehird sees a lot about using putty as a cygwin shell, but not as a gnuwin32/whatever shell...
09:29:05 <Rugxulo> I dunno, I've only ever used PuTTy for telnet (Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup)
09:29:28 <Rugxulo> and like I said, WinNT is much older than 2001, so lots of it are left over from before, so it's not always so hugely modern
09:29:33 <ehird> it's just i anticipate myself itchin' for some command line action, and cmd.exe, well, sucks.
09:29:49 <Rugxulo> use the lite/free version of 4NT (I forget its name)
09:30:05 <Rugxulo> or obviously install Cygwin (Bash)
09:30:18 <Rugxulo> Cygwin supports other shells too
09:30:19 <ehird> but I'm a unix kind of guy!
09:30:24 <ehird> cygwin's ports are non-native
09:30:29 <ehird> but really, it isn't so much the shell
09:30:33 <Rugxulo> they're native, just slow due to API emulation
09:30:40 <ehird> ...i.e., not native
09:30:52 <ehird> there is a definite disrepancy between cygwin world and windows worl
09:30:58 <ehird> cygwin has X11-based terminals, anyway, but eh
09:31:13 <ehird> msys's terminal is just cmd.exe, iirc
09:31:28 <Rugxulo> I dunno, never tried it, but they claim it can run "configure", which is no small feat
09:31:41 <ehird> Rugxulo: you fail to differentiate "terminal" and "shell"
09:31:50 <ehird> also, no it's not; configure has 50000000 lines of crap to deal with rubbish shells
09:33:06 <Rugxulo> not really, they avoid a lot of specific stuff if they can
09:33:52 <Rugxulo> for instance, it could be a lot more DOS friendly, and I'm not even sure it would work as is (well, it definitely won't, but that's due to a pressing bug, there are probably loads of other issues too for "pure" DOS)
09:34:12 * ehird installs mingw/msys as a first stage
09:34:27 <Rugxulo> I still say Cygwin would be good enough for your needs, esp. if you're such a *nix nerd
09:34:31 <Rugxulo> it's not that slow, believe me
09:34:34 <ehird> I have used cygwin before
09:34:41 <ehird> I'm not dismissing it based on anecdote
09:34:50 <Rugxulo> and just to tie in with the configure subject, they claim Autoconf 2.64 is 30% faster on Cygwin now
09:34:56 <ehird> what is the problem with unxutils?
09:34:58 <Rugxulo> I know, you're smart, I see that :-)
09:35:04 <ehird> it's gnu utils, running natively on windows, compiled with mingw
09:35:13 <ehird> i don't see why i'd choose cygwin over that
09:35:21 <ehird> apart from the larger selection of packages, which doesn't matter when I just want a shell and some tools
09:35:31 <Rugxulo> 'cause Cygwin probably runs better, more fully-featured
09:35:40 <ehird> the unxutils are the full things
09:35:47 <ehird> exactly the same gnu tools
09:35:55 <Rugxulo> trust me, a Cygwin compile of Bash is probably loads less buggy than a MinGW one
09:36:13 <Rugxulo> GNU is very POSIX-oriented, and Cygwin is POSIX while MinGW isn't at all
09:36:19 <ehird> http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
09:36:22 <Rugxulo> DJGPP is more POSIX than MinGW
09:36:24 <ehird> i'm not talking about some random no-name project
09:36:25 <Rugxulo> I know, I've seen it before
09:36:27 <ehird> this thing is well known
09:36:34 <Rugxulo> you still need lots of hacks without POSIX
09:36:51 <ehird> ok, let's put it this way: if i ever need to type /cygdrive, it's disqualified :P
09:37:13 <Rugxulo> I think 'cygpath' is the way around that
09:37:38 <ehird> ok, here's a good reason against unxutils:
09:37:40 <ehird> "Last change on 30-04-04 by Karl M. Syring (bug reports are welcome)"
09:37:53 <ehird> although I'm sure it's not that old
09:38:02 <Rugxulo> you never know, it might be
09:38:04 <ehird> last updated march 2007
09:38:10 <ehird> which isn't too bad
09:38:17 <Rugxulo> Bash 3.0 was from 2004, but 3.2.48 (or whatever) was this year (before 4.0, of course)
09:38:48 <Rugxulo> March 2007 could mean anything, probably a lot still going on behind the scenes
09:38:54 <Rugxulo> just no "official" release
09:39:00 <ehird> http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages.html ;; gee, a separate project with the same name
09:39:03 <ehird> that's not confusing at all
09:39:03 <Rugxulo> (I know of several projects older than that, heh, but still updated)
09:39:09 <ehird> Rugxulo: I didn't mean it like that
09:39:14 <ehird> I meant, it's not that old [the latest update]
09:39:21 <Rugxulo> it's old enough to worry, though
09:39:33 <Rugxulo> but unless you encounter a bug or lack of feature, it's not an issue
09:39:53 <ehird> first things first, mingw
09:39:57 <ehird> I can depend on mingw :P
09:40:09 <ehird> now do I want to install mingw and whatever it is in the same tree or not...
09:40:50 <Rugxulo> so you want a shell, eh? could probably just use Eshell in Emacs
09:41:49 <ehird> terminal = graphical program that executes a shell and lets you type into it, scrollback, etc
09:42:00 <ehird> shell = program that parses commands and executes them
09:42:09 <ehird> terminal example: cmd.exe the graphical app, bash, zsh
09:42:21 <ehird> terminal example: cmd.exe the graphical app, xterm, rxvt
09:42:31 <ehird> shell example: cmd.exe the thing that the graphical app runs, bash, zsh
09:43:08 <Rugxulo> but you said you were running Emacs on Windows
09:43:22 <Rugxulo> try "M-x eshell" before you say it's not a shell / terminal :-)
09:43:58 <ehird> but ehh, M-x term is as far as I'll go
09:44:17 <Rugxulo> "M-x ansi-term" also exists
09:44:22 <ehird> yeah, but it isn't very emacsy
09:46:57 <ehird> "Spawning child process: invalid argument"; no emacs term for me
09:47:36 <Rugxulo> sounds like a Lisp bug (which should be reported so it can be fixed)
09:48:02 <Rugxulo> what version? (hopefully 23.1)
09:51:22 <ehird> emacsw32, the emacs patched from like june or something
09:52:07 <fizzie> The PuTTY terminal emulation is not too shabby; if you want something seriously non-mainstream, I would assume installing some suitable SSH server and using "ssh localhost" with PuTTY would be that.
09:52:26 <Rugxulo> okay, I've (barely) heard of Lennard's "EmacsW32"
09:52:31 <Rugxulo> but June means it's probably 22.3
09:52:48 <Rugxulo> 23.1 came out on July 29, I think
09:53:06 <Rugxulo> I'm using the official Win32 compile from GNU's FTP
09:53:30 <ehird> i think we have to fight to the death now.
09:54:31 <ehird> fizzie: http://code.google.com/p/puttycyg/
09:54:45 <ehird> (note: project not dead; stable version just old)
09:54:50 <ehird> maybe if I point it at mingw it'll work.
09:55:26 <Rugxulo> last updated Aug. 10, so that's good to know
09:55:50 <fizzie> At least win2k had a built-in telnet server for running the cmd.exe over telnet. I don't think it worked very well (if at all) if you happened to have a console application that actually did something more cursor-control-oriented.
09:55:53 <Rugxulo> http://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/emacs/windows/
09:56:46 <Rugxulo> 40 MB download (if you want to "upgrade" to 23.1 final)
09:57:45 <ehird> meh, ti wants cygwin dll
09:59:14 <Rugxulo> you can download it separately, lemme find the link ...
09:59:45 <ehird> it implise that puttycyg uses cygwni spawning functions to worka
09:59:50 <ehird> and thus would fail
10:00:00 <Rugxulo> http://cygwin.com/snapshots/
10:00:23 <Rugxulo> I'm telling you, GNU projects are *heavily* POSIX-oriented
10:00:32 <Rugxulo> and Windows does not have decent POSIX support
10:03:45 <fizzie> There was that whole "Windows Services for Unix" thing, I wonder if it's still alive for modern windowseses.
10:03:58 <ehird> It sucks, I gather.
10:04:10 <Rugxulo> and the POSIX subsystem is long gone too
10:04:13 <ehird> Rugxulo: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=896c9688-601b-44f1-81a4-02878ff11778
10:04:20 <ehird> ORLY BITCHNIZZLE???11212
10:04:37 <ehird> I wonder why j wants to install into my home directory.
10:04:41 <ehird> That does not seem like sane thinking.
10:05:15 * ehird installs it in system, since he is an admin and as such is invincible.
10:05:39 <Rugxulo> (that is, not there either)
10:05:43 <fizzie> The internets say most of it is included in Vista Enterprise/Ultimate, though.
10:06:06 <ehird> Wtf my keyboard layout turned british again. rage.
10:06:26 <Rugxulo> you must've hit some specific key combo
10:06:34 <ehird> I\ve removed all other options
10:07:19 <ehird> (+/%#)1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
10:07:23 <ehird> All in functioning order.
10:09:46 <ehird> (/ is used for folding)
10:10:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you know what happened before they became ASCII-limited fools?
10:15:12 * ehird notes his quicklaunch bar is succumbing to featuritis
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10:15:56 <Deewiant> Incidentally, your "Fisherman's Fiend" idea somehow stuck with me enough to make me buy two packets of Fisherman's Friends. I don't and never did intend to make a Fiend, though.
10:16:37 <Deewiant> One of them is of the ammonium chloride variety, which I guess is fairly nonstandard
10:17:01 <ehird> You need the melted metal + acid version.
10:17:13 <ehird> Restarting irc client so that my keyboard layout is right.
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10:20:47 <Deewiant> Enable the language bar, if such a thing exists, and make sure it's on the right setting when you start your program
10:20:57 <ehird> There is only one setting
10:21:00 <ehird> It's nothing to do with that
10:21:03 <ehird> another problem now :P
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10:29:14 <ehird> "Full installation MMX for DirectX 6.1"
10:29:23 <ehird> Rockin' the high-end configuration here
10:30:03 <ehird> There's also 3Dfx Voodoo Glide options :P
10:30:23 <ehird> Apparently I have a Pentium III, and "4G colors".
10:35:45 <ehird> I like how the shortcut is "To Play Rayman 2".
10:35:51 <ehird> Instead of, you know, just "Rayman 2".
10:40:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Whaddya mean?
10:40:24 <ehird> It's what I installed Windows for.
10:40:40 <Deewiant> I mean why that game in particular
10:40:52 <ehird> /shrug. I remembered it.
10:42:55 <ehird> Well, it crashes on changing resoluton just as it always has.
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17:07:52 <fizzie> Hrm. The iBook (G4) HD has decided to go and break. I wonder if it's just the standard 2.5" IDE thing, and not some sort of Appleism. (I've only stuck more memory in this thing, and that at least was very normal stuff.)
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17:30:46 <AnMaster> ehird, btw didn't you say no one uses python 3?
17:31:06 <ehird> Brace yourselves! AnMaster is about to take things absolutely literally.
17:31:40 <AnMaster> I agree mostly with that... But I found one exception.... this "introduction to computer science" course uses python 3.1 ...
17:35:12 <ehird> tell them they're stupid :P
17:36:04 * AnMaster wonders what to do with the "--with-fpectl" configure flag for python
17:36:18 <AnMaster> since ubuntu doesn't have 3.1 packaged, only 3.0
17:38:24 <ehird> AnMaster: you know, 3.1 is just 3.0
17:38:36 <ehird> probably not worth the bother installing 3.1
17:38:43 <ehird> unless this introduction course is made by a fan of edgecases
17:38:51 <ehird> (i forbid you from teaching ever)
17:38:57 <AnMaster> ehird, and some new modules iirc
17:39:16 <AnMaster> and rewritten IO code in C (to make it fast)
17:39:24 <AnMaster> computed goto also is supposed to make it faster
17:39:35 <ehird> Yes, that hello world will be 10x faster and the new brokencsvmicrosoftwordmbox module will be vital in that course. :P
17:39:40 <ehird> I wonder if MinGW comes with a fork().
17:39:43 <ehird> Only one way to find out!*
17:39:55 <Deewiant> Can I tell X to turn caps lock on/off without pressing the caps lock key, somehow?
17:39:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think we got past that already. We got to loops and functions already :P
17:40:02 <ehird> Deewiant: telepathy
17:40:13 <Deewiant> No, I don't think X has a telepathy API
17:40:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Next step, bleeding-edge modules
17:40:37 <ehird> F:\Documents and Settings\Elliott Hird\My Documents\Code ;; windows paths are uncomfortably long
17:41:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you mean like with using xset led or so?
17:41:26 <AnMaster> not sure if that actually toggles caps lock or just the led
17:41:37 <ehird> Deewiant: that isn't the real name.
17:41:40 <Deewiant> Actually thanks for reminding me about that, that should be sufficient
17:42:38 <AnMaster> what are you trying to do btw?
17:42:43 <Deewiant> Except that xset -led $i for all $i in 1..32 only toggles scroll lock :-P
17:43:08 <ehird> Darn, MinGW *doesn't* come with a fork() :-)
17:43:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I only ever used xset led off
17:43:24 <Deewiant> Doesn't work either; only scroll lock
17:43:38 <AnMaster> for some reason that turns off accessibility thingies if they get enabled by mistake
17:43:56 <Deewiant> Anyway, what I did was I applied a vacuum cleaner to my keyboard and now the caps lock LED is inverted respective to the caps lock state
17:44:03 <AnMaster> (yes that's weird, I would like to completely disable whatever the hotkey is for stuff like slow keys and such)
17:44:10 <Deewiant> And restarting X is a solution
17:44:13 <AnMaster> (haven't found the relevant option yet)
17:44:16 <Deewiant> But I'm wondering if there's an easier way
17:44:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, fix: avoid using vacuum cleaner while computer is on
17:44:43 <Deewiant> That's an even worse solution than restarting X
17:44:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also that thing indicates that caps lock is somehow tracked in hardware
17:44:46 <ehird> Deewiant: Just vaccum it again
17:45:00 <Deewiant> I somehow always manage to make it work like this
17:45:13 <ehird> Vaccum a CRT. It won't help, but it'll look cool.
17:45:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think this means the led is not software controlled at all
17:45:20 <Deewiant> Granted, there's been a difference in that the first time around I try to clean the keyboard
17:45:27 <Deewiant> Whereas the second time around I try to fix caps lock
17:45:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? I never tried, what happens?
17:45:48 <ehird> AnMaster: No idea, but it's probably quantum.
17:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unplug the keyboard and replug it?
17:46:09 <AnMaster> since PS/2 isn't hot-pluggable
17:46:22 <Deewiant> PS/2 seems to be hot-pluggable
17:46:25 <AnMaster> but I would assume I'm the only one still using a PS/2 keyboard
17:46:35 <Deewiant> At least, I recall unplugging this keyboard several times
17:46:36 <ehird> Surely Windows must have something that can implement fork() in its annals these days.
17:46:42 <Deewiant> And it still working without a reboot after replugging
17:46:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it isn't. IIRC ais said that it could potentially fry your keyboard
17:46:59 <ehird> PS/2 is de facto hot-pluggable, de jure not.
17:47:05 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I always use PS/2. I use USB-to-PS/2 adapters for USB keyboards.
17:47:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe my system is DS9K then. Because my system promptly rebooted when I tried it a year ago or so
17:48:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> Surely Windows must have something that can implement fork() in its annals these days. <-- what about the thing cygwin does?
17:48:15 <ehird> AnMaster: You mean basically being a kernel in userspace?
17:48:23 <ehird> I'm sort of looking for something along the lines of not that.
17:48:31 <Deewiant> ehird: Default USB keyboard protocol implementation allows only 6 simultaneously pressed keys (+ 2 or 3 modifiers, I forget)
17:48:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Learn to type properly and chop off those extra fingers.
17:48:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well iirc cygwin does it like: run new process but make it wait at a mutex, copy stuff over to new process, resume the new process
17:48:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Which is evil
17:48:58 <AnMaster> both processes are suspended while this is happening iirc
17:49:08 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But it counts as implementing fork() ;P
17:49:12 <Asztal> http://www.eggheadcafe.com/conversation.aspx?messageid=32086952&threadid=32040421 <- what about that?
17:49:17 <ehird> So does return EDS9K
17:49:36 <ehird> Asztal: still looks like the same thing
17:49:41 <ehird> also, that's f rom the cygwin time.
17:49:47 <ehird> so of course it is the same thing.
17:49:49 <Deewiant> Yay, I figured out a better solution
17:49:50 <Asztal> ZwCreateProcess would be a way to do it, as that mentions
17:50:00 <ehird> oh gawd, now I have to look at msdn
17:50:02 <Asztal> but ZwCreateProcess is part of the undocumented NT API
17:50:03 <Deewiant> Go to VT1 -> turn caps lock off -> go back to VT7 (X)
17:50:20 <ehird> Undocumented sonuds fun.
17:51:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xset led works for me btw
17:51:08 <ehird> Wonder if I need the -Ex variant :-)
17:51:12 <AnMaster> though I don't even have a caps lock key :P
17:52:05 <Deewiant> Hmm, xset led is actually pretty weird
17:52:14 <Deewiant> xset led off -> scroll lock off, others remain on
17:52:49 <ehird> AnMaster: As much as I loathe to give any credo to Xah Lee, see http://xahlee.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html
17:53:06 <ehird> *a word that isn't creedo
17:53:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xset led on here only turns on scroll lock. It used to turn on caps lock, but that doesn't seem to happen any more
17:53:30 <AnMaster> as for numlock, it used to affect that too
17:53:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, numlock not affected by off either
17:54:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume he have small hands
17:54:52 <ehird> Please stop making that stupid grammatical error; you should know by now...
17:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, because if I use my palm like he describes, I can't reach z or x with my fingers...
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17:55:27 <ehird> you classify everyone who doesn't have huge hands as small handed
17:55:32 <ehird> this is... false, to say the least
17:55:36 <ehird> and an obvious bias
17:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, you do exactly the opposite
17:56:23 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't swap. I use it in addition
17:56:29 <AnMaster> I have no caps lock key feature
17:56:44 <Deewiant> I can press ctrl with my palm and use my index finger to reach every letter up to the YHN column except Q and A
17:56:45 <ehird> I do not do exactly the opposite, that is an unfounded assertion.
17:57:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also reaching *up* wasn't the issue
17:57:37 <AnMaster> because I would have to curl my finger a lot
17:57:40 <Deewiant> Like I said, I can reach all except Q and A
17:57:50 <Deewiant> And yes, that includes Z and X
17:57:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well Q and A are at the top row?
17:58:08 <Deewiant> The problem with Q and A is they're too far to the left
17:58:16 <Deewiant> My palm slides off ctrl if I press those with my index finger
17:58:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can you reach altgr and 2 with the same hand?
17:58:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, full sized keyboard?
17:58:40 <Deewiant> Using thumb + pinkie I can reach right windows and esc
17:58:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sounds pretty normal sized then
17:59:01 <Deewiant> Although that's stretching it a bit; I might press altgr at the same time as right windows
17:59:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right windows and esc is a bit stretching... but then this keyboard has a larger than usual altgr key for some unknown reason
18:00:16 <AnMaster> and esc and the f keys are a bit further away than usual too
18:00:24 <Deewiant> Well I don't know what's "usual" anyway, this is an early-90s HP keyboard
18:00:25 <AnMaster> from the "main" section I mean
18:00:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this is a ~2001 Fujitsu Siemens keyboard
18:01:38 <Deewiant> If this didn't have Windows buttons I'd guess it was 80s :-P
18:01:39 <ehird> I should use an Apple Extended Keyboard II
18:01:44 <ehird> Then I can be inexplicable even to the Model M users
18:02:01 <AnMaster> ehird, symbolics one would beat even that
18:02:14 <ehird> Symbolics keyboards do not have high-quality keyswitches.
18:02:16 <Deewiant> It has original Alps, doesn't it; that makes it somewhat cool
18:02:18 <ehird> (as far as I know)
18:02:35 <ehird> The Apple Extended's are at least equal to and perhaps better than the Model M's, depending on your tatse.
18:02:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, alps? Wow those keys must have been quite tall
18:02:56 <ehird> Also, it's more obscure and the keycaps are made for one OS.
18:03:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what alps in this context
18:03:04 <ehird> But hey, John Gruber uses one.
18:03:11 <Deewiant> And "at least equal to" is incorrect
18:03:19 <Deewiant> You can like buckling-spring more than the alps just fine
18:03:27 <ehird> But I mean objectively.
18:03:32 <AnMaster> ehird, err I remember an apple keyboard without the f-keys at all
18:03:36 <ehird> They're undeniably high-quality, and you might subjectively like them more.
18:03:37 <AnMaster> I think it was for apple classic
18:03:37 <Deewiant> There is no objectivity about it :-P
18:03:47 <Deewiant> Well, what do you mean by "high-quality"
18:03:59 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Apple_Extended_Keyboard.jpg
18:04:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Alps are a brand of key switches
18:04:21 <ehird> Deewiant: What do you mean by "is"
18:04:35 <ehird> By high-quality I mean they're high-quality in construction and engineering
18:04:53 <ehird> I acknowledge that the Model M's keyswitches are high-quality, and yet I do not really appreciate the feel of typing on it, preferring softer keyboards.
18:05:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um... is this like ALPS touchpad? as in same ALPS?
18:05:15 <Deewiant> I don't know enough details to compare the quality of the Model M's switches and Alps
18:05:21 <Deewiant> Or any other switches, for that matter
18:05:43 <Deewiant> But yes, they're both higher-quality than most stuff on the market, fine.
18:05:55 <ehird> I'm afraid at what I'm becoming
18:06:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Possibly, I don't know.
18:06:08 <ehird> I'm enjoying using Windows XP with the classic theme and no font antialiasing!
18:06:13 <ehird> Surely sweet death must come soon...
18:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, on a mac screen or on a 96 DPI one?
18:06:24 <ehird> Anything to relieve me from this internal termoil.
18:06:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Mac. 100dpi isn't really different from 96dpi anyway.
18:07:02 <ehird> Yes, that's what they all are, roughly.
18:07:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I saw gimp under mac os x think the ~114 DPI screen was actually 72 DPI
18:07:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Googling a bit suggests that yes, they're both by Alps Electric Co., Ltd.
18:07:12 <ehird> The 24" Apple Cinema Display @ 1920x1200 is 94dpi, even.
18:07:27 <ehird> The notebooks are more like 120dpi.
18:07:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well this one was 114 DPI, a few years old (still intel one though)
18:08:03 <ehird> The most pixel-packing display on an Apple computer is the 17" MacBook Pro, which is full 1920x1200 (!); that's 133dpi.
18:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, still I want a 30" at > 400 dpi
18:09:20 <ehird> And I want a pony.
18:10:00 <ehird> I'd start breaking the piggy bank around 600dpi; with a good backlight you'd be very close to obsoleting print as a superior medium.
18:10:03 -!- AnMaster has set topic: PONY FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:10:04 <ehird> (for reproduction)
18:10:26 <ehird> from the evil plant forest
18:10:53 <AnMaster> ehird, that probably exists too. *shrug*
18:11:56 <AnMaster> ehird, wake me up at 1200 dpi screens that won't need backlight
18:12:02 <AnMaster> like you don't use backlight for a book
18:12:34 <AnMaster> not sure how good colours it has yet
18:12:54 <AnMaster> but hopefully at some point it will be good enough
18:13:10 <AnMaster> of course, backlight as an option would be nice
18:14:02 <AnMaster> would be nicer than having to use a torch
18:14:07 <ehird> How come cmd.exe only lets you choose between Lucida and the default thingy :\
18:14:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what fonts are installed?
18:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe those are the only fixed ones
18:14:36 <ehird> Although admittedly the default terminal font is very crisp.
18:14:39 <ehird> It's just... very bold, too.
18:15:03 <ehird> The 6x8 version is yummy like 9pt Monaco.
18:15:05 <Asztal> Registry hacks can let you use Consolas etc. in the console
18:15:15 <Asztal> (though Consolas will look like vomit without Cleartype)
18:15:26 <ehird> Asztal: I have a policy not to antialias stuff in here for no adequately explained reason
18:16:33 -!- ehird has set topic: PONY F.
18:16:41 <ehird> also, heehehehhe Small Fonts is cute.
18:17:25 <ehird> Asztal: Bold Segoe UI actually looks acceptable pixelated
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18:19:04 <Asztal> I just turned off font smoothing and it's still being used in places
18:19:08 -!- AnMaster has set topic: PONY F http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:19:19 <ehird> Asztal: yah, some shitty things force htat
18:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, and didn't try to fix it?
18:19:29 <ehird> AnMaster: i am a lazy man.
18:19:35 -!- AnMaster has set topic: PONY FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:19:51 <Asztal> like notepad's main menu, and window titles (it's aero glass)
18:20:10 <AnMaster> <Asztal> I just turned off font smoothing and it's still being used in places <-- iirc it only takes effect for apps started after the setting was changed
18:20:23 <AnMaster> it certainly is like that under X
18:20:49 <ehird> It is being forced for the C* font family by Microsoft programs.
18:21:00 <ehird> Because they mostly look like excrement without ClearType.
18:21:19 <ehird> Asztal: what's that registry hack you were speaking of?
18:21:21 <AnMaster> ehird, cleartype *looks* like excrement. More so on lower resolutuon monitors
18:21:34 <ehird> ClearType is a very bad implementation of subpixel smoothing.
18:21:40 <ehird> Really, all are unbearable apart from OS X's, which looks nice.
18:21:46 <ehird> But only in the context of OS X's UI.
18:21:55 <Asztal> ehird: http://blog.wolffmyren.com/2008/09/15/consolas-as-cmdexe-windows-console-font/
18:21:57 <ehird> (This explains how Safari on Windows can look like such dung.)
18:22:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you think the linux subpixel stuff sucks too?
18:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, right. so why was you so surprised when I didn't like it on my laptop then?
18:22:53 <ehird> Because at that high DPI, I really didn't think it would matter
18:23:18 <ehird> OS X rendering strongly resembles print; a lot of people dislike it for that reason when viewing it in their OS of choice but I've never heard of anyone walking up to a Mac and going "Eww, the fonts are all *smudgy!*".
18:23:59 <ehird> I wonder if powershell is any good
18:24:02 <ehird> Is powershell any good, Windows users?
18:24:32 <AnMaster> ehird, a vector display. Wouldn't need anti-alias at all
18:24:43 <Asztal> it's a bit enterprisey, and slow to start up, but it's better than cmd
18:25:46 <ehird> how's it enterprisey?
18:27:30 <ehird> Hey, I could just install the Lisp Machine monospaced font. :-)
18:27:44 <Asztal> ehird: ls, for example, returns a list of objects, not text, and you manipulate it by inspecting the properties of the objects. It's nice in some ways, but it can get clunky too.
18:27:58 <ehird> http://www.eurogaran.com/downloads/lispmfont/screenshot.jpg
18:28:09 <ehird> Is it just me, or is this the nicest bitmap monospace font ever?
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18:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird, looks nice, but what is up with the 7?
18:28:32 <ehird> It's a european 7.
18:28:36 <ehird> Rendered quite uglily.
18:28:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Dash through the middle.
18:28:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, I always write my 7-s like that
18:29:08 <ehird> Only so many pixels to go around. Anyway, how many 7s do you have in your code?
18:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I do math homework in emacs? ;P
18:29:55 <AnMaster> because I'm too lazy to use a pen. A lot more effort
18:30:02 <ehird> Lucida Typewriter looks nice
18:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, where can one get that lispmfont in a format that a modern system knows
18:30:32 <ehird> .fon is not unmodern.
18:31:42 <ehird> In fact I just installed it by dragging-and-dropping the .fon to my Fonts folder.
18:33:06 <ehird> Okay, found a flaw: the . is not monospaced and is unusally small.
18:35:02 <ehird> If only I had the money for http://www.fsd.it/fonts/pragma.htm
18:35:15 <ehird> The 12pt Mac aliased is pretty much unsurpassable there for ease-of-reading.
18:35:27 <ehird> But, ehh, 90 euros man
18:37:40 <ehird> I wonder if there is a Windows (un)archiver that exposes things as compressed folders As They Should Be.
18:37:48 <ehird> I like the integrated .zip support for that, but... it's just .zip.
18:38:54 <ehird> I'm going to be adventurous and try and sleep this computer now for a second.
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18:57:41 -!- zzo38 has set topic: MAHJONG FLU http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:00:24 <zzo38> Why what? Did you mean the TOPIC setting?
19:01:39 <zzo38> If you don't like it you can change it back, but I think it was changed to a few things it can change a few ways
19:01:53 <zzo38> Because yesterday I purchased Akagi DS game
19:02:04 <AnMaster> I just wondered what made you decide on mahjong
19:02:22 <zzo38> That's why, it is because I purchased Akagi DS game yesterday.
19:02:35 <zzo38> Maybe there is a esolangs idea for something having to do with mahjong game, too
19:02:41 <AnMaster> and this "akagi ds" is some sort of mahjong?
19:03:15 * AnMaster usually plays kmahjong when he plays mahjong (which isn't very often)
19:03:23 <zzo38> Akagi DS is a mahjong game for DS. It has a few unique features (such as ZawaZawa power, Washizu mahjong, story mode, and some others), but is generally inferior.
19:03:41 <AnMaster> DS being some old portable nintendo thingy iirc?
19:03:51 <AnMaster> or was gameboy the old thing and ds the modern one?
19:04:14 <zzo38> Kmahjong isn't a mahjong game as far as I can tell.
19:04:27 <zzo38> DS is the new Nintendo handheld system (except DSi is even more newer)
19:04:54 <zzo38> It is just one type of solitaire game that can be played with mahjong tiles.
19:05:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, well maybe. There are some other ones too
19:05:24 <zzo38> Mahjong is played with 4 people
19:05:54 <zzo38> Yes, Kshisen is another different solitaire mahjong game.
19:06:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, all games called "mahjong" that I have seen have been solitaire ones...
19:06:35 <zzo38> They call them "mahjong" because they use the mahjong tiles. But real mahjong game isn't like that.
19:07:15 <AnMaster> anyway I usually prefer games with a story. This means stuff like single player RPGs or adventure games. I'm a big fan of some of the zelda games for example
19:07:42 <zzo38> Akagi DS game has a story
19:07:43 <AnMaster> zelda a link to the past, and zelda ocarina of time would be my two top favourite ones
19:07:57 <zzo38> But you can play free mode also.
19:08:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, still quite far from the "story" in something like a RPG I assume?
19:09:54 <zzo38> It is more like a story than other mahjong games have, but not quite like you would see in a RPG
19:10:22 <zzo38> I now have the full collection of Akagi manga book 1-22
19:10:51 <zzo38> I have three mahjong games on my computer, Zootto Mahjong, Nantonaku Mahjong, 4-Winds Mahjong.
19:10:59 <zzo38> But I will write my own, too. Called XUL-Mahjong
19:14:15 <zzo38> Akagi DS game and Akagi manga book are all in Japanese, though. But I like it, especially with Washizu tiles.
19:14:51 <zzo38> Zootto Mahjong and Nantonaku Mahjong are also both in Japanese.
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19:20:36 <zzo38> Just now I searched for a mahjong game on Japanese SourceForge, I did find one, written in Ruby. Possibly I could try to figure it out to add some feature, such as Washizu tiles.
19:26:00 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0C/yakuman.png http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0C/mahjong1.png
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20:15:10 <AnMaster> http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- hehe
20:15:51 * oerjan somehow found Lightning Made of Owls amusing today
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20:24:41 <AnMaster> btw my shift key is starting to get a slight jwz-look. Nothing as bad yet though
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21:34:15 <augur> ive moved to maryland and i dont have internet in my place yet
21:34:21 <augur> but that doesnt mean i dont love you! T_t
21:35:15 <augur> now, im off to the library
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21:45:02 <ehird> i don't love you, augur.
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22:20:21 <ehird> AnMaster: you were talking about eink response times?
22:20:22 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1080224.html
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22:21:59 <ehird> (I secretly wish that one day, the web will be almost entirely Flash-based, and you will be forced to resort to using: gopher; no electricity; no running water; no surrounding society. Am I a bad person?)
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22:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw
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01:00:20 <oerjan> <ehird> (I secretly wish that one day, the web will be almost entirely Flash-based, and you will be forced to resort to using: gopher; no electricity; no running water; no surrounding society. Am I a bad person?)
01:01:03 <oerjan> i'm afraid this will only lead to him making his own flash interpreter, probably together with zzo38.
01:02:21 <oerjan> probably based on gopher, though
01:03:08 <oerjan> <AnMaster> ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw
01:03:21 <oerjan> my opinion is that you need to learn to paste URLs better
01:04:43 <oerjan> my impression from one of the comments was it was based on a misunderstanding, with the flag going to configure instead of cc
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01:06:47 <oerjan> also see the last comment
01:22:06 <oerjan> darn french who cannot spell
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01:37:40 <zzo38> http://pastebin.ca/1554430
01:45:30 <zzo38> Ha, ha, it isn't about GameCube! Now push the Explode button and your TV will explode and money will come out.
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01:49:06 * oerjan doesn't have an Explode button, and suspects that is fortunate.
02:10:51 * oerjan once again manages to write "proof reading" in an edit summary
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09:34:54 <AnMaster> <oerjan> my opinion is that you need to learn to paste URLs better <-- I blame synergy
09:35:09 <AnMaster> <oerjan> my impression from one of the comments was it was based on a misunderstanding, with the flag going to configure instead of cc <-- yes but no one else does it like that
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11:01:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think I finally found a way to make string pushing significantly faster in cfunge. Sadly it is only for x86 and x86-64
11:02:17 <AnMaster> and I'm not sure if the env strings are usually as long as they are on my gentoo system that it would matter much elsewhere
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12:57:46 <Deewiant> http://sites.google.com/site/ryanbroomfield/xkcd-sans-women
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14:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm considering doing it
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14:10:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw how good are you at sed?
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14:11:35 <AnMaster> I'm wondering if there is any shorter way to write this in sed: sed '/^\//!d;s/\(.[ch]\)(\([0-9][0-9]*\)):/\1:\2:/;s/\(error\|remark\|warning\) #/\1: #/'
14:12:10 <AnMaster> (btw it is supposed to convert ICC style diagnostic output into a format that some tools that expect GCC style can understand)
14:12:26 <AnMaster> (oh and it actually works, just seems so messy)
14:21:50 <fizzie> Probably with "-r" you save a few backslashes -- just "(foo|bar|baz)" instead of "\(foo\|bar\|baz\)", though you need to escape the raw parens then -- but in general that looks a bit too simple to optimize much, unless you can combine those two s///s together (i.e. both are done on same lines). I don't quite know what the ICC output looks like.
14:23:11 <fizzie> And -r's not posix, of course.
14:23:40 <fizzie> (At least the 1003.1-2001 one.)
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14:27:19 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Probably with "-r" you save a few backslashes -- just "(foo|bar|baz)" instead of "\(foo\|bar\|baz\)", though you need to escape the raw parens then -- but in general that looks a bit too simple to optimize much, unless you can combine those two s///s together (i.e. both are done on same lines). I don't quite know what the ICC output looks like. <-- hm right, they are indeed
14:27:47 <fizzie> Then you can maybe combine them, though it might not look any prettier that way.
14:28:19 <AnMaster> as for -r, I doubt this will be useful on anything but linux. Or is ICC available for other platforms than windows and linux?
14:29:33 <fizzie> OS X, at least some versions at some point.
14:30:28 <fizzie> Oh, and there was some QNX thing too, but that can't be very popular.
14:36:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, and it depends on absolute paths in the output, to detect the relevant lines (which is true by default for cmake projects, which is where I needed this)
14:39:07 <fizzie> If you just want those lines for which the s/// matches -- I mean, it already has that ".[ch](digits)" test to see relevant lines -- you can write something like "s///; t ok;d;: ok" to save the /^\//!d test, but it looks a bit crufty with the jump.
14:39:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, the .ch bit was because there is (digits) sometimes later on the line too
14:40:10 <fizzie> Yes, but it might be good enough to pick up relevant lines already with that.
14:45:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what would unlink(NULL); do?
14:45:37 <AnMaster> I mean is it undef or just error?
14:46:14 <fizzie> I guess it should logically return EFAULT in errno, but I wouldn't maybe count on that.
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14:46:57 <AnMaster> I wonder what icc means with "warning #12331: function "chdir" is vulnerable to race conditions"...
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14:50:26 <fizzie> Don't know; the only related race I can think of is in the "process creates a directory, then someone removes it and places a symlink to some existing wrong place, process then chdirs into the wrong place" case, but that's not so very chdir-related.
14:50:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you know if this is well defined: if ((foo == NULL) || (function_not_checking_parameter_for_null_first(foo) == 1)) { return ERROR_CODE; }
14:50:57 <GregorR> In a process with multiple threads, all threads share the same chdir.
14:51:18 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it could just be about that, but isn't that quite obvious.
14:51:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, except this program uses no threads...
14:51:32 <GregorR> When I think "race condition", I think "threads", making that quite obvious.
14:51:43 <GregorR> (Although of course there are other non-thread race conditions out there :P )
14:51:48 <AnMaster> and since it is produced during link time optimisation it should know that pthreads aren't linked
14:52:13 <GregorR> I'll bet icc compiles with threads whether you want it to or not :P
14:52:15 <fizzie> And yes, || is still short-circuiting, foo will not be null if function_not_checking_this_name_is_too_long is called.
14:52:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, actually no. It only does that if you use -parallel to auto-parallelise. Checked with ldd
14:53:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, right. Forgot if it was in C
14:54:55 <fizzie> Funny, can't seem to find any references to that #12331 chdir warning from the interwebs. It must not be a very popular ICC flag that enables it.
14:57:51 <AnMaster> it did find some useful things, like a few missing checks for NULL in places that needed them
14:58:16 <AnMaster> but almost everything else seems to be false warnings so far
14:58:51 <fizzie> That's funny, since it seems "sc1" is just about "critical errors", and that sounds like quite a just-in-case warning.
14:59:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep. I wonder what sc2 and above will do...
14:59:17 <AnMaster> I wonder why on earth I wrote this:
14:59:23 <AnMaster> case 0: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "rb"); break;
14:59:23 <AnMaster> case 1: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "wb"); break;
14:59:23 <AnMaster> case 2: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "ab"); break;
14:59:25 <fizzie> "Your variable names are not poetic enough."
14:59:49 <AnMaster> I mean clearly the mode bit should just be calculated then the call be made with a variable
15:00:11 <AnMaster> though that is possibly messier in C
15:15:24 <Deewiant> Probably because you didn't write it but rather copied it from CCBI :-P
15:18:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah would explain the bad coding style.
15:18:45 <Deewiant> case 0: file = c.fopen(name, "rb"); if (!file) goto default; break;
15:18:45 <Deewiant> case 1: file = c.fopen(name, "wb"); if (!file) goto default; break;
15:18:45 <Deewiant> case 2: file = c.fopen(name, "ab"); if (!file) goto default; c.rewind(file); break;
15:18:55 <Deewiant> Though the rewind may not be needed
15:19:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have the rewind stuff further down
15:19:31 <AnMaster> if ((mode == 2) || (mode == 5))
15:19:57 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FILE/FILE.c:337: error: #12306: unvalidated value is received from call to an external function at (file:/home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FILE/FILE.c line:326) which can be used in loop condition expression
15:20:11 * AnMaster tries to figure out what that was about
15:20:14 <Deewiant> You don't check ferror or something?
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15:20:31 <AnMaster> if ((bytes_read = fread(buf, sizeof(unsigned char), (size_t)n, fp)) != (size_t)n) {
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15:21:05 <AnMaster> since bytes_read is the bit that is found in the loop
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15:22:56 <ehird> 14:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw
15:23:18 <AnMaster> ehird, was already pointed out, and I blame synergy as I said
15:24:13 <ehird> 17:45:30 <zzo38> Ha, ha, it isn't about GameCube! Now push the Explode button and your TV will explode and money will come out.
15:24:14 <ehird> funnily enough, clicking the link did not make me understand this any more.
15:25:59 <ehird> 06:50:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you know if this is well defined: if ((foo == NULL) || (function_not_checking_parameter_for_null_first(foo) == 1)) { return ERROR_CODE; }
15:25:59 <ehird> wow, stop coding C
15:26:21 <AnMaster> ehird, well icc didn't claim it was.
15:26:42 <ehird> we've already established icc is overly pedantic
15:26:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it strayed into "plain wrong" there
15:27:14 <ehird> 07:15:24 <Deewiant> Probably because you didn't write it but rather copied it from CCBI :-P
15:27:14 <ehird> hey now, he might have changed the indentation style!
15:27:19 <ehird> hm nope, not even that
15:27:27 <ehird> he converted it to tabs
15:27:35 <ehird> significant modifications, here
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15:27:41 <ehird> Deewiant: er right
15:27:48 <ehird> I selected the space next to >
15:28:12 <AnMaster> ehird, you aren't even funny. Also isn't one of the points of open source to be able to share code ;P
15:28:40 <ehird> Generally it's considered polite to label things like that "ports"
15:28:52 <ehird> Except that'd be offensive to CCBI, which doesn't have half of its code as asm optimisations
15:30:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I do include a comment at the top of that file about many parts being based on CCBI. Reason here was that I implemented that RCS fingerprint before Mike Riley showed up here.
15:30:25 <AnMaster> when his docs were even worse.
15:30:37 <ehird> I'm further convinced that you don't actually read messages you reply to
15:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I generally skip lines with a too high sillyness quota
15:31:26 <ehird> Translation: I ignore lines I don't agree with
15:33:53 <AnMaster> ehird, if I did that I wouldn't be able to end up arguing with you for such long periods.
15:33:58 <ehird> Correction: I ignore lines I strongly don't agree with, especially if they're from people I dislike.
15:34:29 <AnMaster> ehird, Not really, but when you are sarcastic or just plain silly, then yes.
15:35:04 <ehird> Correction: If I continue to add qualifiers to this sentence I can justify [ignoring lines I strongly don't agree with, especially if they're from people I dislike].
15:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, ... now you are getting close to silly again.
15:36:13 <ehird> You're... incredibly predictable.
15:37:16 <ehird> Here we find AnMaster using his staple argumentative technique, "argumentum ad I don't have any rebuttals so I'll make a bad joke and hope everyone forgets about the argument".
15:37:27 <ehird> (Said in Attenborough voice.)
15:38:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, you didn't answer the question about that bug above.
15:38:14 <AnMaster> http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 that is
15:38:33 <AnMaster> quite wtfy of python to only let CFLAGS passed to configure affect configure itself
15:38:36 <ehird> What is there to say? You linked me to a tedious, sundry bug.
15:38:43 <AnMaster> which is completely different to what everyone else does
15:43:42 <ehird> I guess I'll have to rieinstall windows
15:47:15 * ehird considers looking at older notebook models
15:47:34 <ehird> A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller...
15:47:55 <ehird> (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's)
15:52:00 <ehird> A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller...
15:52:01 <ehird> (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's)
15:52:07 <ehird> = more screen space while fitting on my lap
15:52:08 <AnMaster> err I meant about why reinstall
15:52:17 <ehird> because my keyboard stopped working
15:52:25 <AnMaster> ehird, heh... tried rebooting?
15:52:35 <ehird> yes. also repairing the drivers.
15:52:44 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe unplug it and plugging it in again?
15:52:57 <ehird> I turned it off and on again.
15:53:00 <ehird> And tried to repair.
15:53:04 <ehird> It "supposedly" worked, but not really.
15:53:20 <ehird> AnMaster: About that?
15:53:22 <AnMaster> how do you set up the initial pair connection thingy for bluetooth keyboard and mice
15:53:33 <ehird> For a keyboard, just click click click.
15:53:38 <ehird> It can generate a pairing key for you.
15:53:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, enter key shown on screen or such?
15:53:58 <ehird> Yeah, they're like 8 digits long
15:54:08 <AnMaster> what about mice, how do you input it there?
15:54:24 <ehird> You just turn it on, maybe press a button on the back, and pair at the same time.
15:54:46 <ehird> But then two mice in range trying to pair at the same time is unlikely, after all.
15:55:27 <ehird> Issues with looking at older notebooks: run hotter and louder, lower specs, dimmer displays
15:55:37 <ehird> Hotter and dimmer being the main issues
15:55:49 <ehird> "256 or 512MB PC2-4200 memory standard, 2GB max
15:55:49 <ehird> 40, 60 or 80GB PATA HDD"
15:55:50 <AnMaster> ehird, unless someone is setting up a computer lab at some uni. But I guess usb mice are more common there to make it harder to steal
15:55:55 <ehird> Okay, well, more than 80GB would be nice.
15:56:25 <ehird> I guess I could use a SATA→PATA adapter and scrunch a big SSD in there with some ingenuity.
15:56:27 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, do you plan getting some notebook bag/backpack or similar?
15:56:40 <ehird> Sure, I can't exactly hold it all the time.
15:56:43 <AnMaster> because when I was looking for one to mine I only saw ones made for wide screen
15:56:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I could just get a regular bag
15:56:56 <AnMaster> of course you could just get a larger bag
15:57:08 <AnMaster> like a 15" one for a 12" laptop or similar
15:57:37 <ehird> The T43 is 32.9 x 26.8 x 3.6 cm.
15:57:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but the ones made for notebooks tend to have some extra padding
15:58:01 <ehird> Eh, who cares about that. The only PC notebooks I'd really consider are ThinkPads, and they're sturdy.
15:58:14 <AnMaster> which is nice both for your back (in case of backpack at least) and for the notebook (for obvious reasons)
15:58:26 <ehird> Did you know, by the way, that the original iBook weighed a whole 3kg?
15:58:29 <ehird> It looks so... dinky.
15:58:35 <AnMaster> ehird, that sounds about right
15:59:15 <ehird> Huh, the T43 is 2.3kg. Old notebooks sure are heavy :P
15:59:40 <AnMaster> ehird, btw for clamshell ones: don't use the built in handle thingy
15:59:54 <ehird> I am not in the market for a clamshell iBook, AnMaster. "{
15:59:54 <AnMaster> at least mine shows some worrying cracks in the plastic handle.
16:00:11 <AnMaster> ehird, :( it would match your old powerpc mac perfectly
16:00:28 <AnMaster> sed '/^\/home\// !d;s/\(.[ch]\)(\([0-9][0-9]*\)):/\1:\2:/;s/\(error\|remark\|warning\) #/\1: #/'
16:00:28 <ehird> (Even if I was looking for a Mac and yet wanted an old notebook. Especially since they can't even run Snow Leopard, being PPC.)
16:00:50 <AnMaster> I select something in firefox and it pastes old stuff every time
16:00:54 <ehird> http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CKr185OFk9KEdRDIARjIATIIb2Sq8OBFTU4
16:00:57 <ehird> IT JUST SEXY AS HELL
16:01:43 <ehird> You know, there's an old ThinkPad in the local refurbished laptop shop; I think it was an X-something.
16:01:48 <AnMaster> Definitions of dinky on the Web:
16:01:48 <AnMaster> * small and insignificant; "we stayed in a dinky old hotel"
16:01:48 <AnMaster> * (British informal) pretty and neat; "what a dinky little hat"
16:01:48 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
16:02:00 <ehird> Ehh, all of them apart from the middle.
16:02:08 <ehird> It's... small. And cute-looking. Not 3kg looking. :P
16:02:21 <ehird> Actually there were two ThinkPads at that shop, but one was being used as a mousepad.
16:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't small. Well the 12" 800x600 screen is
16:02:31 <AnMaster> wide borders around the screen after all
16:03:00 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/IBook_G4.jpg The iBook G4's keyboard looks nice. Also holy crap that button is big.
16:03:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> Actually there were two ThinkPads at that shop, but one was being used as a mousepad. <-- sounds uncomfortable since the thinkpads I have seen are quite thick...
16:03:35 <ehird> Well, remember that yours was the "low-cost" model, so it compromises on weight and thickness, but no, not really.
16:03:37 <ehird> The desk wasn't very high.
16:03:43 <ehird> And the monitor was on top of some books.
16:03:51 <ehird> It wasn't as makeshift-looking as it sounds.
16:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I the button isn't as much "large" as the whole laptop is "small"
16:04:08 <ehird> That button is really deep compared to the trackpad, dood. :P
16:04:42 <ehird> No, that is not how you look at notebooks.
16:04:51 <ehird> You look at the screen. Deep.
16:05:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you are talking about the trackpad click button right?
16:05:08 <ehird> That is also how they measure how big the keyboard/pad area is. Deepness.
16:05:15 <ehird> You are using the wrong dimensions.
16:05:29 <ehird> ("In 2005 the Chinese manufacturer, Lenovo, purchased the ThinkPad brand from IBM, in a five year deal whereby IBM still helps in the marketing and support of these products." that explains the ibm.com)
16:05:35 <AnMaster> ehird, screen depth refers to number of bits per pixel...
16:05:42 <ehird> "Added the Windows key to all 60-series and newer laptops making all the Windows shortcuts possible. (Although possible before with the keyboard remapping utility)"
16:05:43 <ehird> Wow, only lenovo did that?
16:05:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't know what the word depth means? Really?
16:06:01 <ehird> "Ported the ThinkPad keyboard into stand-alone keyboards for desktop PCs in PS/2 or USB flavor. [12]"
16:06:04 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I do, like widthxheightxdepth
16:06:14 <ehird> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-45868
16:06:19 <AnMaster> but I fail to see which dimension is which here
16:06:24 <ehird> Best input device evar
16:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, actually no, it is better to switch between trackpoint and touchpad IME
16:06:57 <ehird> And that lovely keyboard.
16:07:02 <ehird> Looks like no windows key, though.
16:07:07 <ehird> At least that doesn't look like a logo.
16:07:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and indeed, old thinkpads had no windows key iirc.
16:07:33 <ehird> A disturbing trend in keyboards recently: Microsoft are getting people to do the windows-logo-surrounded-by-orb thing PHYSICALLY.
16:07:52 <ehird> A convex bit of smooth plastic pressed into the key with the windows logo on it.
16:08:02 <ehird> What do you mean keys should feel good to type?
16:08:07 <ehird> MICROSOFT ARE GIVING US MONEY!
16:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what about ms ergonomic keyboards? If they still make them
16:08:40 <ehird> http://computersolutions.co.nz/images/newsletter/2007-10-14/Windows%20Key.jpg ;; example
16:09:28 <ehird> I bet old notebooks don't have very good battery life...
16:09:45 <AnMaster> ehird, on my thinkpad there is a circle around the windows logo, but it is made so that the windows logo is slightly below the surface of the key, hardly possible to notice at all.
16:09:56 <AnMaster> and the surface inside the circle is flat
16:10:00 <ehird> That's moving me slightly towards an Apple notebook, actually. All the MacBook Pros have 7 hours battery life apart from the 17" model, which has 8.
16:10:15 <AnMaster> but I guess they can't anything convex on a laptop :)
16:10:16 <ehird> (And yes, in testing they get near these in real world use.)
16:10:44 <ehird> (Graphs: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3580&p=4)
16:10:51 <Deewiant> ehird: That looks like it'd feel absolutely horrid
16:10:55 <Deewiant> OTOH it's not a very important key
16:11:04 <ehird> Deewiant: And it is on a Mac, e.g.
16:11:09 <ehird> Since it's option there
16:11:13 <ehird> (Alt becoming Command)
16:11:39 <AnMaster> you mean windows key is the super key :P
16:12:11 <ehird> Well, Option is Compose I guess.
16:12:41 <ehird> Except it's in shortcuts too.
16:12:45 <ehird> So Control, Compose and Meta.
16:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, press compose release, type mu gives µ
16:13:25 <ehird> But Compose-' e = é, for example
16:13:30 <ehird> It's the same general idea
16:13:38 <ehird> "Do special characters, maybe with argument"
16:13:55 <ehird> And Command is the main shortcut key for, well, commands.
16:13:58 <ehird> So Meta definitely fits.
16:14:00 <AnMaster> I wonder where pi is with compose
16:14:22 <ehird> Of course, then you get silly combinations like Compose-Command-v because Compose is just arbitrary in a shortcut.
16:14:28 <fizzie> This Logitech illuminated has the windows-logo-emboss-thing, and I personally don't really notice it that much; it looks to have a bith smoother rim around the logo than in that picture, though.
16:14:42 <fizzie> And I use it much, since I've bound all window-manager shortcuts to that.
16:16:20 * ehird considers writing a paper on erroneously spatial interfaces
16:16:29 <ehird> Mostly because that term, that I just invented, is awesome.
16:17:42 <fizzie> The windows key keycap design is rather strictly regulated, see all 23 pages of http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/e/1/de1e0c8f-a222-47bc-b78b-1656d4cf3cf7/HardwareStartButtonV102.doc (if you can open a Word .doc, anyway)
16:18:14 <ehird> I want a keyboard whose icon for the Windows key is a turd.
16:18:20 <ehird> "Just press Turd-Q."
16:18:56 <fizzie> That document is one of the requirements if you want that "Windows Logo Program" thing, so you can put the logo on the box.
16:19:13 <ehird> SHAPE \* MERGEFORMAT
16:19:13 <ehird> Figure 1: Sample implementation of the Hardware Start Button
16:19:30 <ehird> Same idea, but instead of a turd, the text "SHAPE \* MERGEFORMAT".
16:19:42 <ehird> "Diameter of the Chamfer"
16:23:24 <fizzie> But see, it's not like they're strict about the stuff; you can use a "matte finish with a consistent texture of MT11000 or equivalent" instead of the "SPI A2 gloss finish". Well, of course only if you're distributing the keyboard in the EU area.
16:25:11 <ehird> "Why is it that in 2008 were there over 3 million searches on the keywords Obama Antichrist" and "Obama Messiah"?.......Does Barack Obama have an apocalyptic role given the global financial circumstances in which he has risen to power. Is he a man divinely appointed or an agent of the New World Order objective?"
16:25:17 <Deewiant> I'm sure Apple has an equally ridiculous thing, it's just internal because they make all their own keyboards :-P
16:25:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Not really, they've differed significantly
16:25:47 <ehird> For instance, on my previous keyboard it was "⌥ alt" or something, on this it's
16:26:27 <ehird> On this, it's "(hollow apple) ⌘", on the later ones, it's "command ⌘".
16:27:02 <fizzie> And even the Apple logo is pretty subtle. Certainly no polished domes for it.
16:27:28 <ehird> Yeah, the thing with the Apple keyboard is all done with Bluetooth Reality Distortion Fields.
16:27:39 <ehird> Basically you see Steve Jobs. All the time. And nothing else.
16:31:57 <AnMaster> ehird, but they would never let another company produce keyboards with apple logos I bet
16:32:09 <ehird> A company defending their logo
16:32:13 <ehird> Evil! Boycott Apple.
16:33:09 <AnMaster> yeah it's horrible. And it seems Microsoft are positively open compared to apple in this case ;P
16:35:17 <AnMaster> other silly warning from ICC: warning #12330: function "system" possibly accepts command line
16:35:25 <AnMaster> err yeah? that's the whole point isn't it?
16:36:34 <ehird> Would you like a strong AI compiler or something
16:37:28 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean it is intended for "don't use this in a web server" kind of thing warning?
16:37:35 <AnMaster> that could possibly explain it
16:37:41 <ehird> It's a "yo, man, be careful with this input"
16:37:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah that's what I meant
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17:08:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do ORTH instructions reflect on error?
17:08:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well the output string one could
17:09:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the reason I asked was simply that ORTH is after all based on another language.
17:11:09 <Deewiant> I don't know what they do there
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17:24:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about this ICC warning:
17:24:42 <AnMaster> "return value of function "clearerr" is ignored
17:24:51 <AnMaster> according to man page the prototype is:
17:25:15 <AnMaster> doesn't happen to any other void function as far as I can tell
17:25:35 <fizzie> It probably then isn't void "in reality", i.e. in the system headers.
17:25:57 <AnMaster> /usr/include/stdio.h:extern void clearerr (FILE *__stream) __THROW;
17:26:12 <fizzie> Curious. Maybe ICC's just very confused.
17:27:03 <AnMaster> maybe it provides it's own stdio headers? doesn't make any sense... but who knows... *greps*
17:27:07 <fizzie> Assuming you actually have <stdio.h> there included, but one would guess not having that would lead to other warnings.
17:27:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was at the sc3 level btw
17:28:40 <AnMaster> and no, grepping the whole icc directory didn't turn up any clearerr except stuff like "binary file /opt/intel/Compiler/11.1/046/bin/intel64/icc matches"
17:29:09 <AnMaster> $ nm -D /home/arvid/local/intel/Compiler/11.1/046/bin/intel64/icc | grep clearerr
17:29:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unknown, it's gnu headers. would take way to long to track that down
17:29:44 <fizzie> There's also a lot of __BEGIN_NAMESPACE_STD macros.
17:30:14 <fizzie> They are probably using the same header for the <cstdio> thing, or whatever, and want the empty-throw-declaration there. Or something.
17:30:29 <AnMaster> __THROW seems to be defined in lots of places
17:30:48 <Deewiant> Try removing __THROw and see if it still complains
17:30:51 <AnMaster> from grep (keep in mind that there are no context lines here):
17:30:53 <AnMaster> /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:# define __THROW __attribute__ ((__nothrow__))
17:30:53 <AnMaster> /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:# define __THROW throw ()
17:31:10 <Deewiant> It just sounds like the type of thing that might be causing it.
17:31:20 <ehird> I like how throw = nothrow
17:31:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, __THROW is there for stuff it doesn't complain about though
17:31:33 <Deewiant> So maybe you aren't ignoring that stuff.
17:31:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think those two lines there just contradicted itself
17:31:39 <fizzie> I really think it's defined empty for the not-gcc case.
17:31:41 <Deewiant> Or it's using a different #defined value there.
17:31:47 <ehird> fizzie: icc says it's gcc.
17:31:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: ICC claims to be GCC, IIRC.
17:31:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, ICC defined __GNUC__ though
17:32:25 <fizzie> In that case it really shouldn't be confused by GCC attributes.
17:32:54 <AnMaster> which make all hell break loose in cfunge, except that I explicitly check for __INTEL_COMPILER
17:33:45 <fizzie> My headers define __THROW to "__attribute__ ((__nothrow__))" for (not C++, GCC >= 3.3); to "throw ()" for (C++, GCC >= 2.8) and to empty otherwise.
17:33:52 <AnMaster> wait, what does throw() in C++ mean?
17:33:59 <fizzie> Does not throw exceptions.
17:34:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, why not call it nothrow() or something then
17:34:20 <fizzie> It's "throw with an empty list".
17:34:31 <fizzie> Here's the list of exceptions we may throw: none.
17:34:46 <fizzie> Pretty much the same thing as __attribute__ ((nothrow)) I guess, though I don't know what the attribute actually does in non-C++ code.
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17:35:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, seems pretty unclear from gcc docs too
17:35:56 <fizzie> "The `nothrow' attribute is used to inform the compiler that a function cannot throw an exception."
17:36:00 <AnMaster> "The nothrow attribute is used to inform the compiler that a function cannot throw an exception. For example, most functions in the standard C library can be guaranteed not to throw an exception with the notable exceptions of qsort and bsearch that take function pointer arguments. The nothrow attribute is not implemented in GCC versions earlier than 3.3."
17:36:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wasn't aware C functions could throw exceptions
17:36:41 <fizzie> I guess it's for compiling C with -fexceptions.
17:36:56 <AnMaster> what would the point of THAT be...
17:36:58 <fizzie> "you may need to enable this option when compiling C code that needs to interoperate properly with exception handlers written in C++"
17:37:20 <AnMaster> I feel I should really repeat the above line :P
17:38:22 <fizzie> Actually, heh, it's in the cdefs.h header too: "For gcc 3.2 and up we even mark C functions as non-throwing using a function attribute since programs can use the -fexceptions options for C code as well."
17:38:40 <fizzie> I like it how the comment says "for gcc 3.2 and up" while the actual test is __GNUC_PREREQ (3, 3).
17:40:18 <fizzie> The system headers are always so messy.
17:40:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, much less so on freebsd though
17:40:32 <fizzie> /* These two macros are not used in glibc anymore. They are kept here
17:40:32 <fizzie> only because some other projects expect the macros to be defined. */
17:40:32 <fizzie> #define __P(args) args
17:40:32 <fizzie> #define __PMT(args) args
17:40:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I guess those are related to prototypes somehow
17:41:26 <fizzie> Yes, I think people do wrap arguments in a __P() so it can be defined empty if you want to omit them.
17:41:34 <fizzie> Not sure what __PMT is for.
17:41:39 <AnMaster> #define __long_double_t long double
17:41:48 <AnMaster> /* This is not a typedef so `const __ptr_t' does the right thing. */
17:41:58 <AnMaster> well that explains the first, but not the second
17:42:33 <fizzie> It's probably so that "unsigned __long_double_t" will work. :p
17:43:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what would the const do if it was a typedef
17:43:13 <AnMaster> make the actual variable itself const rather than the pointed to value?
17:43:50 <fizzie> I don't really like the whole "hide a pointer in typedef" thing anyway.
17:43:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, any way to make the actual pointer const if you don't want to use a typedef? Err would it be something like void* const?
17:44:21 <AnMaster> I seriously hate how C types are defined
17:45:00 <fizzie> Yes, void* const foo; would be it, I think.
17:45:10 <AnMaster> okay now ICC is just getting damn silly. It errors that while(true) is an infinite loop....
17:45:15 <fizzie> cdecl> explain void* const foo;
17:45:15 <fizzie> declare foo as const pointer to void
17:45:25 <AnMaster> has it never heard of main loops?
17:45:50 <AnMaster> ehird, same error, I just checked
17:45:58 <ehird> Sounds like a reasonable error to me
17:46:36 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, because when written like that it is usually intended. And it doesn't need a strong AI to detect. After all GCC does it.
17:46:45 <ehird> you put it on super-pedantic mode
17:46:58 <ehird> if you're an idiot and do that when you don't want it to be super pedantic
17:47:00 <ehird> shit's your fault.
17:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but the pedanticness should make sense IMO :P
17:54:14 <fizzie> In C++ you can write "const void *foo" and "void const *foo" and they mean the same thing; I *think* you can do the same in C too, though my version of cdecl doesn't understand the latter.
17:55:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... Is it trying to make C not-TC? :P
17:55:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, err you must have misunderstood what I was suggesting
17:55:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, not that C is TC without file IO. ;P
17:56:20 <pikhq> while(true); -- Getting rid of that means no TC
17:56:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, never suggested that. It was ICC who did
17:56:48 <pikhq> AnMaster: Sure it is. Via an annoying isomorphism with lambda calculus. :P
17:56:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact the case was while(true) { blah blah }
17:57:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, you have limited memory since size of size_t must be finite
17:57:18 <pikhq> (specific implementations are not; damned finite stack)
17:58:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, in fact it is defined that sizeof(void*) must be finite.
17:58:46 <AnMaster> so it isn't just "no implementation is TC" here. (because that is true for every language then)
17:59:11 <pikhq> Yeah, sure. But not everything on the stack needs to be within that finite memory space.
18:00:10 <pikhq> ehird: Since C is not dynamic, one need not worry about making everything addressable. Just everything that's addressed.
18:00:39 <ehird> {int x$N} * sizeof(int*)+1
18:00:49 <ehird> {&x$N} * sizeof(int*)+1
18:01:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, since you can take an an address of anything on stack and pass it on to callees
18:01:30 <pikhq> That, of course, cannot be done infinitely. Fortunately, that's not needed for Turing completeness.
18:01:36 <ehird> AnMaster: that is not what he said
18:01:42 <ehird> pikhq: C is not TC, man.
18:01:50 <ehird> This has been proved, more or less.
18:02:19 <pikhq> ehird: It has functions and a call stack of potentially infinite size.
18:02:29 <ehird> That call stack must be pointerable.
18:02:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, also iirc it is valid to do something like: int i, j; int* base = &i; ssize_t diff = &j - &i; and then use base+diff to access j
18:02:37 <pikhq> Then GCC does not implement C.
18:02:39 <ehird> pikhq: Besides, functions are not enough.
18:02:44 <ehird> You have to PASS functions.
18:02:44 <AnMaster> though that is probably gray-zone
18:02:47 <ehird> And those functions must be POINTERS.
18:02:51 <ehird> and POINTERS are of finite size.
18:03:04 <pikhq> ehird: Okay, that's a much better argument.
18:03:04 <ehird> (You DO have to pass functions for the LC)
18:03:09 <pikhq> (read: not a non-sequitur)
18:04:11 <AnMaster> C is probably TC if you include the file IO though... iirc.
18:04:30 <ehird> If given an infinite filesystem.
18:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect it isn't. Files are seekable. the offset in files is of the type off_t, which is also finite. There is a finite number of filenames you can fit into memory (since memory is finite)
18:05:22 <ehird> so use files of 1-byte.
18:05:33 <ehird> fopen("swap489573495834985739498732814683779831647842672645678926587932645","w")
18:05:43 <AnMaster> ehird, um? how would that help.
18:05:45 <ehird> ofc filenames are finite
18:05:51 <ehird> AnMaster: You don't need infinitely large files
18:06:09 <AnMaster> but you need infinite number of files then
18:06:20 <ehird> I'm sure it's been shown that the C file io is tc
18:06:45 <AnMaster> which is not possible if there is a finite number of possible filenames.
18:06:59 <fizzie> It's just "infinite number of possible filenames in memory".
18:07:12 <fizzie> You can do a tape with an infinite-depth chain of subdirectories, and move around it with chdir.
18:07:24 <ehird> or, index files pointing to new and old filenames
18:07:28 <ehird> so you can drop them from memory
18:07:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would work, but then you mean C + POSIX iirc
18:08:35 <AnMaster> the C standard describes no such thing as "directory"
18:08:44 <AnMaster> files yes, but not directories
18:09:39 <ehird> Does that mean you're leaving? Say yes.
18:09:57 <ehird> Yes, "yawn" means "I am leaving now".
18:10:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought it was "yawn, I'm feeling sleepy, see you tomorrow"
18:15:56 <AnMaster> oh btw I found out why ICC produced a binary for cfunge that was more than twice as slow as that gcc produced (on mycology that is)...
18:16:33 <AnMaster> I was hiding some attributes ICC didn't understand from it. When I hide those from GCC too... ICC and GCC are exactly even.
18:17:33 <AnMaster> good news is that last version of ICC now support them. And with those visible to ICC... ICC and GCC are exactly even but at the much shorter time.
18:17:51 <ehird> So did it take 0.006 instead of 0.003s
18:19:03 <Deewiant> Agree or disagree: 'If [the 80386] were an unencumbered design, it would have had a 32-bit "word", but as an extension of the 8086, its "word" continued to be considered as 16 bits.'
18:19:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Agree in what way
18:19:17 <ehird> Is it factually true? Should it have been that way?
18:19:35 <AnMaster> ehird, more than 5 times as slow. When you look at it that way, the difference is very large
18:19:36 <Deewiant> Is it true that most people consider the x86's word 16 bits
18:19:56 <Deewiant> I've never considered it 16 bits for the 32- or 64-bit machines
18:20:03 <ehird> Then I guess it isn't?
18:20:29 <Deewiant> The wikipedia article that's from and a comment in the discussion suggests that most people do, in fact, consider it 16-bit
18:20:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I guess this is mainly about the DOS/windows world, where int32_t is known as DWORD
18:20:41 <ehird> That's not helpful
18:20:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: I don't know about "most people", but GDB considers "word" to be 32 bits; for example x/1w dumps out 32 bits; 16 bits is a half-word.
18:20:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, that's one place where it is like that.
18:21:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the entire windows API yes
18:21:49 <fizzie> On the other hand, the official assembly mnemonics have several cases of things like stos{b,w,d,q} with 16-bit word, 32-bit dword and 64-bit qword.
18:22:13 <AnMaster> don't think it is used a lot on linux (the term word that is)
18:22:22 <Deewiant> And actually those Intel ones too, yes.
18:22:43 <Deewiant> stos[bwdq] being one of the few that comes with a size
18:22:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does stos* do now again
18:23:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yeah, everybody's a C programmer so they just talk about size_t ;-)
18:23:11 <fizzie> Stores al/ax/eax/rax into di/edi/rdi.
18:23:36 <Deewiant> Th others store more than a byte. :-P
18:23:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well win32 api is C iirc
18:23:42 <fizzie> Er, and I guess there's some segment selector involved too, I don't remember which one.
18:24:07 <Deewiant> Quite, but they're like OpenGL in that they decided to make their own integer types for everything.
18:24:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait what... isn't that same as mov eax,edi?
18:24:31 <fizzie> Oh, it also increments edi.
18:24:35 <fizzie> With the suitable number.
18:24:50 <fizzie> The number of bytes in the thing you put there.
18:24:59 <fizzie> 1 for stosb, 2 for stosw, 4 for stosd, 8 for stosq.
18:25:10 <fizzie> Yes, there's also a direction flag you can set or clear.
18:25:22 <fizzie> Huh? It's the fast way to do memset, for one thing.
18:25:38 <Deewiant> Is it still the fast way, I wonder.
18:25:40 <ehird> It's like an alien tongue!
18:25:44 <ehird> Deewiant: unlikely
18:25:48 <fizzie> Well, it's *a* fast way anyway.
18:25:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nah, libc one uses SIMD nowdays
18:26:43 <fizzie> Anyway, the AMD "Architecture Programmer's Manual" defines "word" as "Two bytes, or 16 bits."
18:26:59 <fizzie> So it's certainly common; I'm sure you could add a [citation needed] for the "most people" part.
18:27:04 <AnMaster> how would rep stosb work... wouldn't it just be mov eax,edi followed by substracting 2 from edi? forever
18:27:05 <ehird> Yeah, but AMD is an asian knock-off company that uses child labor.
18:27:15 <fizzie> "rep" decrements ecx/rcx.
18:27:18 <Deewiant> Of course they do, since then they can say "stosw moves a word"
18:27:44 <ehird> They also deliberately disable Intel's security features.
18:27:53 <ehird> Why not quote from a manual you can buy in stores?
18:28:13 <AnMaster> oh you meant edi is used as an adress
18:28:31 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Stores al/ax/eax/rax into di/edi/rdi.
18:29:00 <fizzie> Yes, well, I was assuming an AI-complete reader.
18:29:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> They also deliberately disable Intel's security features. <-- I can't even imagine how you thought of that...
18:29:53 <ehird> Uhh, it's true. Don't tell me you've been deceived, AnMaster.
18:30:20 <ehird> [[If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will most likely be
18:30:20 <ehird> that you have to order them from internet sites.]]
18:30:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea what you are talking about simply. What security feature to be specific?
18:30:22 <ehird> — http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html
18:30:44 <ehird> ^add told to the cut off line
18:31:10 <ehird> The clog line ends with "be".
18:31:35 <ehird> Maybe it didn't send \r and your client stripped off the last two chars.
18:31:44 <fizzie> The line here ends with "b" too. Strange.
18:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, I'm on xchat atm
18:32:30 <fizzie> Also the bip bouncer log line ends with "-- likely b", that's curious too.
18:32:51 <Deewiant> Did we find an off-by-one bug in various software? :-P
18:32:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't do my logging in znc so can't check there
18:33:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect it may be server side
18:33:18 <Deewiant> Yep, then it's some server that routed it that failed
18:33:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suspect that server name may be included
18:33:34 <fizzie> Actually I think it might be the ident-message-prefix thing.
18:33:38 <fizzie> It adds at least a + there.
18:33:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which means if the server happens to have a long name...
18:33:50 <ehird> Why are IRC lines limited anyway
18:33:52 <AnMaster> yes my client activates that feature too
18:33:52 <fizzie> And xchat toggles that feature on.
18:33:57 <ehird> Apart from bullshit historical reasons
18:34:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's a freenode thing which you can toggle on which makes the server prefix a + to messages from identified-to-nickserv people, and a - to others.
18:34:27 <AnMaster> I guess neither clog nor whatever client Deewiant uses implements that feature
18:34:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: With the intention that it'll be easy to see no-one's the faking.
18:34:36 <fizzie> CAPAB IDENTIFY-MSG or something, was it.
18:35:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is rather useful in irc bots. Make sure the user is really identified without having to do a whois after. for authentication with the irc bot
18:35:28 <AnMaster> whois could potentially have race conditions too
18:35:44 <ehird> Just use name like a real man, I'm sure nobody will /nick name and then !system rm -rf /
18:35:46 <fizzie> I don't think it's very widespread feature to have by-default, but of course there's an Irssi script.
18:36:13 <AnMaster> imagine: Evil guy sends message, gets ghosted by real nick owner, bot sends whois, real nick owner identifies, server replies to whois, bot allows evil command
18:36:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think I seen any other irc server than Hyperion implementing the feature.
18:37:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> Why are IRC lines limited anyway <ehird> Apart from bullshit historical reasons <-- for bullshit historical reasons
18:37:43 <ehird> then why do current servers abide by this limit
18:37:49 <AnMaster> and iirc there are clients that crash on overly long lines.
18:38:09 <AnMaster> ehird, NOTABUG (no I don't agree with this)
18:38:19 <Deewiant> Although I checked that it doesn't ever call the function that uses it
18:38:34 <Deewiant> It's just there for the linker warning
18:38:42 <AnMaster> or just some helper function intended for gdb call?
18:39:01 <ehird> To be fair, RCFunge 2's code is better, isn't it?
18:39:16 <Deewiant> It's a bit more modular, I guess
18:39:27 <Deewiant> Since it has to wrap everything in a struct for MVRS to work
18:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, not really, it was trivial to crash it iirc
18:39:56 <ehird> Every software has bugs
18:39:57 <AnMaster> though that was some rc. Haven't tried any "stable" version of it
18:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well trivial as in providing a command line argument but no file or something like that
18:40:36 <ehird> AnMaster: That's sort of low down on the things I'd write if I was writing my own option parser code for an unstable version
18:40:56 <AnMaster> ehird, want to hear why it crashed?
18:41:08 <AnMaster> it was more or less filename = argv[argc-1];
18:41:23 <AnMaster> and it checked that there was at least one argument
18:41:37 <AnMaster> somehow that ended up crashing it if it started with a -
18:41:51 <ehird> See, most people write a command line interface that they can use for testing when using an unstable release
18:42:05 <ehird> I'd concentrate on e.g. the funge support, personally
18:42:21 <ehird> If they're the kind to write their own command line parsers.
18:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, rc/funge doesn't run on windows iirc. So there is no reason to not use getopt() just as well.
18:42:42 <Deewiant> Mostly because Tango didn't have one, though, but anyway
18:42:48 <ehird> Oh snap, disproof by sample size of 1
18:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Because getopt's interface is shit, for one
18:43:10 <AnMaster> ehird, getopt_long interface is yes
18:43:14 <ehird> <AnMaster> I JUST SEE A BLANK WHITE PAGE
18:43:18 <ehird> AnMaster: And getopt
18:43:54 <ehird> 1. Duplication of naming the options
18:44:00 <ehird> in both the switch and getopt()
18:44:13 <ehird> 2. Incomprehensible suffixes like :, that look like options in themselves
18:44:39 <ehird> Irrelevant, in "bf:" : looks like an option
18:44:53 <ehird> It's an unreadable DSL
18:44:57 <ehird> Unless you already know
18:45:04 <ehird> Because it's arbitrary and unneeded
18:45:28 <ehird> Was that meant to be a counterargument?
18:45:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course it is readable. F: means it F takes an argument
18:45:45 <ehird> Deewiant: HEY NOW.
18:46:59 <AnMaster> the only issue here is that + means: "hey you! yes I mean you getopt of glibc! Follow POSIX today or else!"
18:47:02 <ehird> Plan 9's argument parsing is better
18:47:11 <ehird> I'll draft up something that doesn't look ugly
18:47:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so it will be completely unlike J then?
18:47:47 <ehird> J isn't unreadable just because you don't use \32.
18:48:18 <AnMaster> ehird, getopt's DSL isn't unreadable just because it doesn't use \32 either
18:48:36 <ehird> correct. It's unreadable for entirely different reasons
18:49:06 <AnMaster> because reading getopt's DSL is trivial
18:49:30 <AnMaster> I agree that the duplication in the switch statement is a small issue though
18:50:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you realise that saying J is readable and getopt's DSL isn't makes you a hypocrite?
18:51:00 <ehird> There are so many logical flaws with my statement that I'd rather hit myself on the head with a baseball bat than try and rebut it.
18:51:31 <ehird> But let's try with the first: "He thinks getopt is unreadable, I think J is unreadable, therefore he must think J is unreadable or he is a hypocrite".
18:51:39 <ehird> What's that? That doesn't logically follow at all? Oh my.
18:52:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to be indicating that your opinion on getopt above was some sort of "universal truth"
18:52:23 <AnMaster> I'm just trying to point out the flaw in this
18:52:58 <ehird> CAN SOMEONE PLEASE KNOCK ME OUT? I'M BEING TOLD, YET AGAIN, TO PREFIX EVERY-FUCKING-THING I SAY WITH "IN MY OPINION"!
18:53:11 <ehird> Go to hell. in my opinion.
18:53:20 <Deewiant> That's a postfix, not a prefix.
18:53:50 <AnMaster> yeah. Both are allowed. You could even insert it in the middle for variation.
18:54:28 <AnMaster> ehird, sed is unreadable unless you know it too
18:54:52 <ehird> Sing with me: Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy/Phallusy, phallusy, wait, what is this about again?
19:01:12 <AnMaster> getopt is a lot simpler to learn than J though. getopt DSL goes like: Every alphanumeric letter is a valid flag. : means the flag is supposed to have an argmuent. There is a few more things to it that aren't commonly used. But that is it. Oh and GNU adds a few other uncommon things. All of these uncommon things are about special meaning if first char of string is a non-alphanumeric char
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19:02:15 <AnMaster> personally I fail to see how that is hard to understand.
19:02:47 <AnMaster> rather the issue would be in how it reports what it found to the app. That is a bit more complex.
19:03:51 <oklofok> so if i sum up an innumerable amount of positive real numbers, why is the sum necessarily infinite?
19:04:02 <AnMaster> which is: getopt returns found flag, any argument is put in the global variable optarg (indeed, getopt isn't thread safe).
19:04:16 <oklofok> the general sum of X is the supremum of all sums of finite subsets of X
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19:05:41 <oklofok> i mean clearly you can't construct something like 0.5^-n for all n, because the decimal expansion needs to start having zeroes to its left, so you can find an injection to N by simply counting the zeroes... but that's very imprecise
19:06:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would you say that it is easy to understand that example I gave above knowing this?
19:06:10 <ehird> oklofok: you exist??????????
19:06:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Uh, sure it's presumably quite simple
19:06:35 <oklofok> great idea taking a measure theory course with a background of one basic course in analysis
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19:06:43 <Deewiant> But I thought the point was more intuitiveness and such
19:07:03 <ehird> Anything is intuitive if you can spend 5 minutes learning it! Yay!
19:07:18 <ehird> I look forward to the system where every call requires such explanation.
19:07:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if the API was supposed to be intutive, why would we have man pages
19:07:52 <ehird> Yah, it's not like things called edge cases exist for most calls or anything
19:08:02 <ehird> Clearly your plan results in the awful demise of man pages
19:08:17 <ehird> After all, it's easy to infer which arguments the order to go in and therefore your plan would obsolete them.
19:08:24 <ehird> Therefore, calls shouldn't be intuitive. QED
19:08:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well design some way to make it intutive to open a newly created file with user access only and fail if the file already exists
19:08:32 <Deewiant> "which arguments the order to go in"?
19:09:03 <Deewiant> open("file name", USER_ACCESS_ONLY | FAIL_IF_EXISTS | READ_WRITE_MODE);
19:09:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you would still need some place to document if it was FAILS_IF_EXISTS or FAIL_IF_EXISTING or similar
19:10:11 <ehird> Deewiant: Don't ask me, I'm just trying to translate AnMaster's argument "If APIs were intuitive we wouldn't need man pages. Therefore getopt shouldn't be intuitive."
19:10:13 <Deewiant> Quite, you still need documentation. But the difference here is that you can read the code and know what it does.
19:10:18 <ehird> And failing massively as every clause of that sentence is stupid
19:11:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in truth I think it is open("file name", O_EXCL | O_RDWR, S_IRWXU);
19:11:18 <AnMaster> and yes it isn't very intutive
19:11:32 <ehird> I r wx u → I are with you
19:11:35 <AnMaster> S_IRWXU 00700 user (file owner) has read, write and execute permission
19:11:51 <ehird> Deewiant: I'M NOT SURE AnMaster RECIPROCATES YOUR DESIRE
19:12:51 <AnMaster> it means "user has read permission" btw
19:12:52 <ehird> Users are not toys.
19:13:12 <ehird> Whooooooooooosh x 2
19:13:18 <AnMaster> though of course that is what I was referencing
19:13:38 * ehird scours thinkwiki for 4:3 thinkpads
19:13:41 <AnMaster> S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR may be saner for most temp files
19:13:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you wanted good battery time?
19:13:58 <ehird> Yes, well, they're worth a look
19:14:02 <AnMaster> also I don't know if you can find new batteries for old computers
19:14:11 <ehird> Of course you can.......
19:14:19 <ehird> also, (I are user and I'm with user)?
19:14:21 <AnMaster> because apart from being initially worse, they also tend to get worse over time
19:14:34 <ehird> Is that like a... transformative masturbation fantasy?
19:14:35 <ehird> IT MAKES NO SENSE.
19:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, um sounds more like some kind of deep zen thing to me
19:15:33 <ehird> "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything."
19:15:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant your "translation" of it
19:16:06 <oklofok> so, one guy on #math says what i ask doesn't make sense, other says what i'm trying to prove is true
19:16:17 <ehird> your mom is useless
19:16:41 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:240 ;; This looks good!
19:16:51 <ehird> High-res, no less.
19:16:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you want 4:3 btw
19:17:05 <AnMaster> since I thought you disliked non-widescreen
19:17:20 <ehird> 07:52:00 <ehird> A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller...
19:17:21 <ehird> 07:52:01 <ehird> (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's)
19:17:21 <ehird> 07:52:07 <ehird> = more screen space while fitting on my lap
19:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, # Intel Mobile Celeron 300, 366 or 400 CPU
19:17:37 <ehird> For big screens, yes, I prefer 16:10
19:17:56 <ehird> Since the extra height is mostly useless, and you can have 4:3 things side by side
19:18:00 <ehird> Neomagic MagicGraph128XD
19:18:07 <ehird> It's amused at its obsolescence.
19:18:25 <ehird> It is also a special card JUST TO DISPLAY GRAPHS!
19:18:36 <oklofok> after telling me the definition doesn't make sense, the guy asks "what's a supermum"
19:18:49 <oklofok> that just... sounded like supermom
19:18:57 <oklofok> Deewiant: yes, but that was a quote
19:19:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Up to 12GB hard drive, bitch
19:19:19 <AnMaster> I thought nun's weren't supposed to me mum's?
19:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, but that would explain a lot about you :P
19:20:44 * ehird wonders how the T43 and T43p differ
19:21:15 <ehird> Hmm, the latter has a different gfx card
19:21:21 <ehird> And moar RAM by default
19:21:32 <ehird> But both support up to 2GB maximum
19:21:43 <ehird> Those Pentium Ms must run hot
19:21:56 <ehird> T60 looks shiny; Core 2 Duo, even.
19:22:03 <ehird> "14.1" TFT display with 1400x1050 resolution"
19:22:06 <ehird> Now that's some dpi.
19:22:37 <ehird> "512 MB or 1 GB PC2-5300 memory standard upgradable to 4 GB1"
19:22:59 <ehird> Looks nice. Quite heavy though; 2.45-2.5kg for the 9-cell on the 14" and the 6-cell probably sucks.
19:23:26 <ehird> There's also a t60p that only has the higher resolution and I don't know what else. Oh, it has that ATI card.
19:23:32 <ehird> I guess p meant "discrete graphics".
19:23:36 <ehird> "and higher specs"
19:23:43 <ehird> well, higher base specs
19:24:33 <ehird> ofc, an issue with all these is that they'll be second hand, and I doubt most ThinkPad owners are terribly careful with 'em...
19:25:01 <ehird> Hmm, The T60 gains a windows key at the expense of fn/control/alt becoming smaller
19:25:35 <ehird> "The ThinkPad T60 under review is a 15.0" variety with an SXGA+ (1400 x 1050) and has what Lenovo calls "FlexView" technology to provide very wide viewing angles"
19:25:41 <ehird> Wonder if I could find a 14" with that
19:25:52 <ehird> (Wonder how many nits they have)
19:26:07 <ehird> "Experiences may differ with a 14" size screen, there is no FlexView offering on that screen size."
19:27:29 <ehird> I have the 9-cell battery with the T60 being reviewed. It adds a bit of weight over the standard 6-cell and sticks out but if you want close to 4 hours of battery life with the 15" screen model you'll need this size. In using the T60 without Wi-Fi and at medium brightness (3rd notch of 7) it got 3 hours 42 minutes of battery life when used lightly (typing review, or idling). You can expect to get over 3 hours with Wi-Fi on and finishing a DVD with the 9-cell
19:27:29 <ehird> battery shouldn't be a problem, well, unless it's Lord of the Rings.
19:27:29 <ehird> The T60 14" screen size will do much better in terms of time of battery life per cell because a smaller screen just drains less battery. My guess is the 6-cell battery for the T60 14" will get you about what the 9-cell battery does for the 15" -- again, that's just a mildly educated guess.
19:27:47 <ehird> So I could expect like 5-6 hours with the 9 cell on the 14"
19:27:50 <ehird> Which isn't bad at all
19:28:16 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9340.gif ;; clever interface!
19:28:37 <ehird> "Runs cool and quiet, no overheating issues even with a fast processor and dedicated video card"
19:28:49 <ehird> The T60 sure looks appealing
19:28:49 <Deewiant> It's not bad, but I always thought it was a bit pointless versus just a sorted list
19:29:09 <ehird> Deewiant: It's much easier to see which networks have a better signal
19:29:19 <ehird> As it can happen unconsciously, instead of looking at a meter
19:29:29 <Deewiant> Than from a list where the top one is the best and the worse are below?
19:29:38 <ehird> That doesn't give you an idea of scale
19:29:48 <ehird> e.g., you might think the Levkoff Network is only slightly worse than the belkin54g
19:30:05 <ehird> Sure, it affects the speed
19:30:25 <Deewiant> I mean, you'll try from fastest to next-fastest anyway
19:30:32 <ehird> If you're going to show it, might as well
19:30:47 <ehird> 14.1" - starting at 2.17kg/2.34kg (4.8 lb/5.2 lb)
19:30:54 <ehird> Could bring that down by replacing with an SSD
19:31:39 <Deewiant> They're much lighter than HDDs?
19:31:54 <ehird> A double-platter notebook HD is, like, 400g
19:31:59 <ehird> A single-platter, say 200g
19:32:04 <ehird> An SSD is roughly 80g
19:33:06 <Deewiant> How very noticeable, 200g versus 80g :-P
19:34:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Combine with e.g. removing the optical drive
19:34:57 <Deewiant> Which weighs what, another 80g? :-P
19:35:40 <ehird> Deewiant: No, more like 200g, I'd say
19:36:01 <ehird> And 2.02kg vs 2.34kg is definitely noticable
19:36:11 <ehird> Albeit only slightly, but still
19:36:26 <ehird> We're talking about grabbing with one hand and putting on your lap, small differences are quite noticeable, I'd say
19:37:31 <ehird> One issue with old notebooks is that they generally don't do wireless draft-n
19:37:40 <ehird> But they have ExpressCard slots too, so that's easily fixable.
19:37:42 <Deewiant> I do that with my evidently-3 kg R60 just fine; I honestly don't think weight matters that much
19:37:58 <ehird> At least unless you want 3g wireless too
19:38:01 <Deewiant> 5+ kg is probably the annoyance point
19:38:04 <ehird> Deewiant: It does, IMO
19:38:18 <ehird> I mean, psychologically, not physically
19:38:40 <Deewiant> I'd say dimensions matter more, psychologically
19:39:17 <Deewiant> If you mean the threshold of deciding whether to take it with you, for instance.
19:39:26 <ehird> There's a reason a lot of people buying the 1.36kg MacBook Air (after using, say, a 2.27kg MacBook - same dimensions) say "This is the first notebook I've come across that feels like I can carry it everywhere all day"
19:39:34 <ehird> (Not making it up, I've read two things saying that, at least)
19:39:48 <ehird> You could claim it's the thinness, I guess :P
19:39:54 <Deewiant> Yeah, it's that they're Mac-people. :-P
19:40:41 <ehird> I'm enough of a geek that I'd take just about any notebook anywhere with me, though. :P
19:41:23 <Deewiant> :-P is my most-used emoticon, I think
19:41:36 <Deewiant> Presumably because I can't think of anything else that really means "ha ha only serious" or whatever.
19:41:40 <ehird> You broke the :-?P chain.
19:41:59 <ehird> I think :P tends to be used to mean "If I say this jokingly it seems bad but I don't want to present it as untrue"
19:42:11 <ehird> Which, I guess, meshes with a sort of social-acceptability "ha ha only serious".
19:43:02 <ehird> Also, the R-series is quite amusing; for the budget line they're not very, well, budget.
19:43:10 <ehird> (belated reaction to "R60")
19:43:50 <ehird> It still exists, but yes, they're the "cost-cutting" budget line.
19:44:01 <ehird> i.e., heavier, thicker, and a few hundred dollars lighter.
19:44:18 <ehird> heh, "lighter" was a thinko
19:44:21 <ehird> but I like it that way
19:45:08 -!- calamari has joined.
19:45:29 * ehird reverses entropy; * calamari is now known as squid
19:45:50 <ehird> In other words, "hi"
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20:15:46 <fizzie> Re the wlan-finding UI, there was that bluetooth pairing screen in some mobile: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/08/31/samsung-rogues-bluetooth-setup-will-be-second-nature-to-air-tra/
20:16:22 <ehird> Yes, well, on a mobile there's rather less space to do that non-stupidly.
20:17:19 <ehird> Also, Bluetooth is so slow it hardly matters.
20:17:23 <fizzie> That "list" doesn't really look very space-efficient to me.
20:18:02 <fizzie> The one in that link, with the only-five-characters-shown icons all around.
20:18:29 <ehird> "The Linutop 3, sporting a custom Linux OS atop a blistering 1GHz VIA C7 CPU, 1GB of RAM and a tremendously capacious 2GB SSD, is just that sort of machine."
20:18:41 <ehird> It's, uh, faster and has more storage space than my £150 crapbook.
20:18:44 <fizzie> Especially since the distances don't conform to anything; at least the wlan thing has the signal strenght.
20:19:08 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, well that's just useless
20:19:22 <ehird> (Fun facct: That "Linutop" costs a whole damn $485)
20:19:57 <fizzie> I think the local PC magazine reviewed Linutop in the newest issue.
20:20:25 <ehird> My review: It's crap and I can tell you this despite having not even used it.
20:20:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> "Experiences may differ with a 14" size screen, there is no FlexView offering on that screen size." <-- what is wrong with a 15"?
20:20:48 <AnMaster> I mean, it is a perfectly reasonable size
20:20:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Quite a lot heavier, and no, no it's not
20:21:07 <ehird> Not everyone has a gigantic lap
20:21:08 <fizzie> They did a comparison of Apple Mac mini, Asus Eee Box, CompuLab Fit-PC2 and Linutop 2.
20:21:11 <ehird> Also, lower battery life
20:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, if you cal 15" gigantic. Then what do you call 17"?
20:21:40 <ehird> 17" is a stupid lugbook.
20:21:50 <ehird> fizzie: Mac mini vs Linutop?
20:22:03 <ehird> It's sort of like David and Goliath, except Goliath is awesome and David sucks cocks.
20:22:04 <fizzie> ehird: They're both physically small. :p
20:22:18 <ehird> AnMaster continues to pioneer context-free IRC clients.
20:22:22 <fizzie> Besides, the Linutop is smaller.
20:22:34 <ehird> The Linutop 3 isn't.
20:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I was away for quite a bit above
20:22:42 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/4sep09_linuto3.jpg
20:22:53 <ehird> AnMaster also continues to pioneer IRC clients that insert a blank line every second
20:23:18 <ehird> "The Linutop operating system is stored on an internal flash memory and cannot be altered by virus or mishap."
20:23:28 <AnMaster> ehird, no I'm too busy (read: can't be arsed) to read much of the scrollback
20:23:42 <fizzie> http://www.mbnet.fi/nettijatkot/2009/08/minikoneet/ (in Finnish) has, in the first picture, their set of reviewables.
20:23:55 <ehird> Takes a true blend of asshole to ask people to scroll up a few times for them
20:24:09 <ehird> WHAT THE FUCK GOOGLE'S TOP BAR IS GONE
20:24:21 <ehird> You can't switch to image search in a click any more...
20:24:34 <fizzie> Not gone for me here, at the very least.
20:24:48 <ehird> Switch to international google, retards
20:25:14 <ehird> Or one of their sample things.
20:25:17 <ehird> AB testing and the like.
20:25:43 <ehird> I don't think it has any holes.
20:25:50 <AnMaster> http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&q=google
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20:26:17 <ehird> Any holes outside the UK would be far too big, I think.
20:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway synergy seriously messes up copy and paste
20:26:59 <ehird> (Extra bonus jokes: EVIDENTLY HANDS AREN'T THE ONLY HUGE FEATURE OF SWEDISH ANATOMY.)
20:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it's true. I guess we can't hide it any more. But we do have huge brains.
20:28:05 <ehird> I'm not sure that's as much a "but" as an "also".
20:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, dropping "but" may be the best way
20:29:08 <ehird> No, I mean meaningly
20:29:18 <ehird> "But we do have tiny brains." would work
20:29:25 <ehird> but not "But we do have huge brains."
20:29:41 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it's true. I guess we can't hide it any more: We do have huge brains.
20:29:52 <ehird> But also doesn't make sense.
20:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, sure does. It is the other thing (apart from hands) that are huge
20:30:37 <ehird> But then I'd be inclined to say whoosh.
20:31:11 <fizzie> The Google top-bar "more ▼" link has an "even more »" option; reminds me of some interface-hall-of-shame GetRight Properties -> "Advanced"-tab -> "More"-button -> "Protocol / Icons / More / Even More" set of tabs.
20:31:13 <AnMaster> for not realising that I continued your joke in an unexpected direction
20:31:26 <ehird> I think you have to do a lot of yoga to be able to whoosh yourself.
20:32:11 <fizzie> Woosh is this ringh-shaped frisbee; from the Koosh people.
20:32:12 <ehird> Would seem like there's a much easier method to the same result most of the time.
20:33:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be true in general of yoga I suspect
20:33:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: I originally wrote "ringh-shabed", and my wetware can only fix one typo per word.
20:33:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm going to go ahead here and say whoosh
20:33:45 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric is ringh-shabed http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
20:33:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't - make it count as multiple words?
20:34:25 <fizzie> No, just spaces count. Sorry, my language output module is pretty limited.
20:34:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, like a (possibly) advanced version of fungot?
20:34:54 <fungot> AnMaster: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
20:35:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:35:13 <fizzie> Obviously Chrono Trigger.
20:35:21 <fizzie> You must not have played it if you had to ask ^style.
20:35:40 <ehird> It means a type of trigger.
20:35:42 <ehird> On a gun, you see.
20:35:46 <ehird> It makes the sound "chrono".
20:35:53 <ehird> Also it's a movie about tigers.
20:35:56 <ehird> Tigers that can talk.
20:35:57 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it makes it shoots cronons.
20:36:02 <ehird> fizzie: That also.
20:36:08 <AnMaster> ehird, um google seems to indicate it is a snes game?
20:36:20 <ehird> Maybe it's a game adaptation; it's old enough.
20:36:22 <ehird> Is it about tigers?
20:36:32 <fizzie> Come to Kenya, we've got lions.
20:36:36 <ehird> Furthermore, can they talk?
20:36:45 <ehird> fizzie: Ha! A quote from the sequel, Chrono Wossname.
20:37:17 <fizzie> Yes, probably. The quotation generator just returns the output; no multiple return values in *my* brain.
20:37:35 <AnMaster> I wonder, is there any DS emulator?
20:37:39 <fizzie> There's a Playstation port, too.
20:37:45 <fizzie> And yes, there are multiple DS emulators.
20:37:47 <ehird> Yes, there are DS emulators. Many.
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20:37:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about Wii emulators?
20:37:58 <Sgeo> OpenC2E should be able to run DS *watches ehird kill him*
20:38:03 <ehird> Soon we'll have to gay marry, what with all this <3ing.
20:38:04 <Sgeo> The DS bootstrap
20:38:25 <ehird> You don't need a Wii emulator if you have a functioning bladder.
20:38:27 <fizzie> DeSmuME is I guess the sensible open-source one; I have no clue what it's game compatibility is.
20:38:33 <ehird> http://www.dolphin-emu.com/news.php ;; wii emulator
20:38:58 <Sgeo> AnMaster, thanks.
20:39:09 <fizzie> DeSmuME's probably best feature is that it provides the GDB stub thing; you can attach GDBs for the ARM 7 and ARM 9 into it.
20:40:38 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr806.gif
20:40:55 <fizzie> Though there's also No$gba (it does GBA and DS both) which they say is good for debugging; but that one is a Windows thing and costs money.
20:41:04 <AnMaster> Sgeo, err what has that got to do with the meaning I used the word "duck" in
20:41:11 <ehird> They just put the free download link below.
20:41:18 <Sgeo> http://tr.froup.com/tr794.gif
20:41:22 <Sgeo> AnMaster, nothing in particular
20:41:33 <ehird> fizzie: Also, the free version has less features.
20:41:46 <fizzie> Yes, the free one is the "for gamers" one.
20:42:03 <ehird> Gamers? More like gaymers.
20:42:06 <fizzie> The "for debugging" one has a $15 shareware home-use version, but it had some sort of silly restriction, can't remember what.
20:42:12 <ehird> BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY.
20:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm glad to hear they are happy.
20:42:44 <ehird> that joke got tired in 1960
20:42:52 <AnMaster> (and yes insert obvious joke about "glad" there)
20:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh that one I didn't think of :D
20:44:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsby:_Champion_of_Youth is, incidentally, rather uncomfortable to read.
20:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, ever read the great gatsby?
20:44:49 <ehird> I don't think so, actually.
20:44:53 <AnMaster> I would say it is rather tedious
20:44:59 <AnMaster> had to read it in school a few years ago
20:45:08 <AnMaster> in some English course or such
20:45:09 <ehird> Atlas Shrugged is tediouser!
20:45:26 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't heard of that one
20:45:28 <ehird> Especially that speech, I hear the first part of it lasts 8 minutes when spoken or something
20:45:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Ayn Rand's crazyfest.
20:45:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Summary: http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif
20:46:28 * Sgeo had to read Anthem at school
20:46:36 <ehird> Sue them for destroying your brain
20:46:42 <ehird> (This applies equally well to any bad programming course)
20:46:58 <ehird> Another Rand book.
20:47:39 <fizzie> If I'd get a nickel for any bad programming course I've been on, I'd probably have spent them already.
20:48:17 <Sgeo> ehird, I don't really know how to distinguish good programming courses from bad ones
20:48:20 <ehird> If I had a nickel for every time I've accidentally bungee jumped I'd be no better off
20:48:25 <ehird> Sgeo: What language?
20:48:45 <Sgeo> ehird, various. Or are you saying that that's the criterion?
20:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, if I had a nickel for every time I argued with you I'd have at least $100 by now
20:49:16 <Sgeo> Java and C++ so far
20:49:29 <Sgeo> and SQL, though that's not really programming
20:49:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not sure we've argued 2000 times
20:49:44 <Sgeo> and some Javascript in the Java course *facepalm*
20:49:46 <ehird> Sgeo: Almost certainly sucks
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20:50:22 <Sgeo> C++ isn't in the same course with Java+Javascript+ALICE)
20:50:33 <ehird> The C++ course has a slight chance of not sucking.
20:50:37 <ehird> The other one is brain-melting.
20:51:02 <fizzie> But goo is leaking from your ears.
20:51:06 <ehird> Maybe that's why you ask a lot of stupid questions :P
20:51:06 <Sgeo> And iirc, was the only one to get a good score on the AP
20:52:01 <fizzie> Advanced placement, isn't it?
20:52:04 <fizzie> Something like that, anyway.
20:52:05 <AnMaster> well I guess your laptop has good antennas then
20:52:22 <fizzie> I doubt they group course grades by wlan access points.
20:52:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, HEY! wait with explaining until after I finished my joke
20:53:09 <Sgeo> 7 minutes until I clean
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20:53:29 <AnMaster> ehird, btw I noticed recently at university my thinkpad has a lot better antennas than most other notebooks. Except those with pre-N.
20:53:57 <ehird> They're generally wrapped all over the plac.e
20:54:15 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? There are some parts of some of the houses that have bad coverage
20:54:23 <ehird> ThinkPad antennas.
20:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well one of them which couldn't connect had an older non-pre-N thinkpad.
20:55:13 <AnMaster> he had one of those 9-cell batteries
20:55:37 <ehird> 1. Eh, I don't need more range than 1 small building.
20:55:50 <ehird> I'll use 3G internet for everywhere else.
20:56:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe it differs nowdays, but it was sticking out about 4 cm, and not straight out but more like __//
20:56:33 <fizzie> I don't think I've come across anything else than Scheme, C, C++, Java, Python, Prolog, MATLAB and some MIPS assembler on university courses. Well, except a really tiny bit of PL/SQL, and Sparc assembler on the compiler course since that was the target arch. It's been so very boring and mainstream.
20:56:43 <AnMaster> where that should have been _/ in fact
20:57:02 <ehird> What ThinkPad was this?
20:57:17 <ehird> Anyway, it doesn't matter when you have it plonked somewhere does it?
20:58:04 <AnMaster> ehird, one marked IBM. Don't remember exact model. Looked similar to mine though, slightly smaller, and had card reader below single PC-card slot on the side (instead of two express card slots on the side and a card reader a bit below the touchpad
20:59:07 <ehird> A random, rather-obvious observation: Erroneously spatial interfaces are even more noticeable on notebooks.
20:59:26 <ehird> *8:4 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
20:59:36 <ehird> There are no 16:9 ThinkPads
21:00:13 <ehird> Absolutely. The only 16:9 notebooks are shitty consumer notebooks, likely with Blu-Ray and other antifeatures.
21:00:21 <ehird> And they are, without exception, glossy.
21:00:28 <ehird> ThinkPads are business notebooks.
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21:01:15 <AnMaster> ehird, because one of the R500 models I looked at was 16:9 iirc...
21:01:36 <AnMaster> ehird, oh maybe it was a non-R500 then.
21:01:52 <ehird> AnMaster: No, not a ThinkPad.
21:02:06 <AnMaster> ehird, also there are thinkpads with blue-ray
21:02:13 <ehird> Not that I know of.
21:02:15 <AnMaster> for example that one with two screens
21:02:30 <ehird> Nothing about that contradicts what I said, though.
21:03:01 <ehird> You fail at reading:
21:03:09 <ehird> [21:00] ehird: Absolutely. The only 16:9 notebooks are shitty consumer notebooks, likely with Blu-Ray and other antifeatures.
21:03:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it isn't 16:9, but still blu-ray
21:03:48 <ehird> Affirmation of the consequent
21:04:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
21:04:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so you mean it a 16:10 with blu-ray is ok?
21:05:23 <ehird> "Bad notebooks have BluRay" != "BluRay means it's a bad notebook"
21:05:27 <ehird> Fallacy; not what I said; kthx.
21:05:44 <ehird> (Tee hee: " A modem. - Make sure you get a so called 'WinModem'. These modems are enhanced to work better with Windows Millennium, and represent very good value for money.")
21:06:07 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I think my laptop has a modem of some kind
21:06:22 <AnMaster> ehird, haven't seen it in lspci or anywhere else inside linux though
21:06:24 <ais523> ehird: where's that quote from?
21:06:27 <ehird> ais523: http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.8.5.172749.2140.html
21:06:43 <ehird> Note because people really mistake this: Adequacy is not serious.
21:06:44 <AnMaster> ehird, is that some joke site?
21:07:05 <ehird> On the famous "Is Your Son a Computer Hacker", like 90% of the comments take it seriously.
21:07:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:08:26 <ehird> BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War. It is based on a program called "xenix", which was written by Microsoft for the US government. These programs are used by
21:08:26 <ehird> hackers to break into other people's computer systems to steal credit card numbers. They may also be used to break into people's stereos to steal their music,
21:08:27 <ehird> using the "mp3" program. Torovoltos is a notorious hacker, responsible for writing many hacker programs, such as "telnet", which is used by hackers to connect to machines on the internet without using a telephone.
21:08:27 <ehird> If your son has undergone a sudden change in his style of dress, you may have a hacker on your hands. Hackers tend to dress in bright, day-glo colors.
21:08:30 <ehird> They may wear baggy pants, bright colored shirts and spiky hair dyed in bright colors to match their clothes. They may take to carrying "glow-sticks" and some wear pacifiers around their necks.
21:08:33 <ehird> Popular hacker software includes "Comet Cursor", "Bonzi Buddy" and "Flash".
21:08:35 <ehird> are just some choice quotes, so I really can't see how anyone can believe it.
21:08:42 <ehird> Well, okay, I think I fell for it the first time.
21:09:10 <ehird> Like almost everyone in the 10 pages of comments
21:09:16 <ehird> Very long pages too
21:09:31 <ehird> By the end I was seething.
21:09:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what I'm asking is: joke site or lunatic?
21:10:04 <AnMaster> sometimes it is hard to tell the difference
21:10:06 <ehird> But I thought it was a lunatic years ago.
21:10:15 <ehird> (I didn't ever think it was true, of course)
21:10:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean... first time I saw that conservopedia (spelling?) I thought it was a joke site...
21:10:32 <ehird> Well, troll, rather.
21:10:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Half of the editors probably are
21:10:42 <AnMaster> that was making fun of extreme conservatives
21:10:45 <ehird> except the other half sees it and agrees with it
21:10:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Um, extreme?
21:10:58 <ehird> It's pretty mainstream Republican party stuff in the US.
21:11:08 <ehird> And yes, that is *very* fucking scary
21:11:15 <AnMaster> ehird, In the eyes of an European yes
21:11:29 <ehird> Even in the UK, which is also quite right-wing, it's insane
21:11:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yes and I think UK is pretty insane
21:11:48 <ais523> hmm... is there anywhere that's more right-wing on average than the US
21:11:55 <ehird> ais523: North Korea
21:12:07 <ais523> ehird: is that extreme right or extreme left, though?
21:12:28 <AnMaster> ais523, possibly it went past the point where you can see any difference
21:12:31 <ehird> I don't know economically, but it's pretty much pure fascism and oppression
21:12:40 <ehird> which is right-wing
21:12:45 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't Sovjet that too?
21:12:51 <ais523> ehird: downtreading most of the populace is left-wing behaviour, though
21:13:04 -!- pikhq has joined.
21:13:08 <ehird> Let's add another direction: fuckedupwards.
21:13:26 <ehird> From this we can conclude that North Korea and the Soviet Union were socially fuckedupwards on the left-right scale.
21:13:33 <ais523> an extreme right-wing North Korea wouldn't train up massive armies; it would instead say everyone had to join the army or they'd get no pay
21:13:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I saw some political two-axis chart thingy some time ago
21:13:46 <ehird> the political compass
21:13:53 <ehird> I'm further left than Gandi :P
21:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, further down in that chart too?
21:14:18 <ehird> I was further left socially, dunno about economically
21:14:29 <Sgeo> ..I think a MIDI of this song sounds much different than the actual song
21:14:41 <ehird> I'm not socialist or communist economically, I'm a filthy regulated capitalist
21:14:42 <Ilari> Any sort of fundamentialists => trouble.
21:14:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I ended up further left for both parameters
21:15:07 <ehird> Ilari: You are a true thinker of this age for that stunning insight :P
21:15:11 <ehird> Sgeo: Like all midis
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21:15:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo, pretty much given due to there being no vocals in MIDI. Well except possibly GM <high number> "Voice synth: Ah" or something like that
21:15:31 <Sgeo> I think the vocals in the actual song are masking the part of the melody that I like
21:15:51 <Sgeo> I don't have the MIDI on-hand though :(
21:16:09 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what about that esolang using MIDI
21:16:31 <Sgeo> Isn't xfire the name of a chat thing for games?
21:16:58 <ais523> it was the name of a rather good gameshow here in the UK a few years ago, too
21:17:06 <xfire35> probably, I like it though
21:17:31 <Ilari> It isn't just right-wing fundamentialists that are scary. Just e.g. watch some creationist videos... At worst they maintain that the Earth doesn't rotate and that Earth is the center of the universe... Scary.
21:18:02 <ehird> The flat earth society, too
21:18:17 <ehird> Although that implies geocentrism and non-rotational...ism.
21:18:36 <Sgeo> I think most people in the flat earth society are just playing devil's advocate, to get people to think for themselves
21:18:38 <ehird> xfire35: Anyway, hi, this is about programming languages not esotericism.
21:18:43 <ehird> Sgeo: Most on the forums, yes.
21:18:48 <ehird> The society itself is dead.
21:18:56 <ehird> But there are the believers on the forum; they have their own subforum.
21:19:00 <ehird> It is downright scary.
21:19:21 <AnMaster> xfire35, are you here for esoteric programming languages or the other type? (If the latter you ended up in the wrong place)
21:19:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Pre-empted you.
21:19:49 * Sgeo doesn't even know what the other type is
21:19:54 <xfire35> I'm here about the programming languages. I've made one on the wiki
21:20:02 <ehird> Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism
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21:20:30 <ehird> Auo is better than most first languages by far
21:21:01 <Sgeo> In the language of Sgeo, "asldf" means "Hello". There. Esoterica
21:21:44 <ehird> Sgeo: Funnily enough, that's as bad an esolang as it is esoterica
21:23:07 <Sgeo> Aren't all esoteric languages a sort of esoteric? Only those who've learned from somewhere know them
21:23:23 <Sgeo> Actually, all programming languages, come to think of it
21:23:23 <ehird> By that definition everything is esoteric
21:24:08 <Sgeo> Math might not be.
21:24:28 <ehird> Uh huh? People know maths without learning it?
21:25:04 <Sgeo> Well, mathematical concepts might be independently derived. Not the symbols, I guess. That's why I said "might not be"
21:25:17 <ehird> Everything can be independently derived
21:25:37 <xfire35> Some languages don't have numbers or the concept of counting within them.
21:27:04 <Ilari> Of the two esoteric langs I have come up with (I should describe them), neither has any concept of numbers nor arithmetic.
21:27:51 <ehird> i think he means natural langs
21:28:35 <Sgeo> Almost time to clean
21:28:41 <Sgeo> I'll go clean now
21:28:53 <AnMaster> actually that sounds like an interesting esolang idea. Something based on logarithms
21:29:05 <ehird> I like how Sgeo notified us for those crucial settings
21:29:07 <Ilari> Don't some natural languages have "one, two, many" or something like that?
21:29:10 <AnMaster> (now to come up with something interesting for those ideas)
21:29:37 <xfire35> I think it is Polynesian tribes or something.
21:30:30 <ehird> Someone should make a wifi router that gets its internet connection from a wifi-connected computer.
21:30:43 <ehird> Then you can e.g. share mobile internet at a meetup of some sort without plugging in your notebook.
21:30:44 <Ilari> OTOH, some classification had "class 0 natural numbers" go up to 6...
21:31:04 <xfire35> Isn't that an Access point?
21:31:25 <ehird> It might exist but I'm not so sure about the wifi-sourced connection bit; don't they use ethernet generally?
21:31:40 <ehird> ofc wireless routers that get their connection from ethernet exist
21:32:12 <ehird> What's the alternative?
21:32:14 <AnMaster> ehird, the computer can act as one can't it?
21:32:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Does that work?
21:32:32 <ehird> Ilari: So that's what that's for?
21:32:38 <ehird> If so, cool, never mind then.
21:32:47 <AnMaster> Ilari, well that and I'm pretty sure I heard about someone using a mac-mini (running freebsd) as a regular AP
21:32:53 <ehird> Don't you need, like, software or something?
21:33:15 <ehird> I guess there must be something for it.
21:33:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. But that is just an <package manager of choice> command away
21:34:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean it is trivial to use the NAT module in iptables to set up a bridge
21:34:30 <Ilari> On the computer that acts as gateway... But other computers have to be configured to use it as gateway.
21:34:59 <Ilari> DHCP might work...
21:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure how trivial it is to set up the computer's wlan card as an AP though, but I'm pretty sure it is possible
21:35:21 <ehird> Ilari: Can't they just connect to it as a wifi network?
21:35:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, well yes dhcp is trivial to get working too
21:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure the answer is "yes"
21:35:48 <AnMaster> well, not for ad-hoc mode obviously
21:36:05 <ehird> How do you do it with ad-hoc mode?
21:36:18 <AnMaster> ehird, unsure. But ad-hoc mode is more like a p2p mode
21:37:21 <AnMaster> ah... iwconfig wlan0 mode (Managed|Ad-Hoc|Master|Repeater|Secondary|Monitor|Auto)
21:37:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that is how you set the mode
21:37:57 <AnMaster> I believe Master is the mode to use for acting as an AP
21:38:05 <AnMaster> and Managed is the normal mode
21:38:20 <ehird> An issue with that wifi-sourced AP, anyway, is that it'd need batteries and such.
21:38:23 <AnMaster> you could then setup NAT as well as a DHCP server
21:38:43 <AnMaster> unless it was connected to a power plug
21:38:45 <ehird> Which would be deathly if they ran down before your computer.
21:38:46 <fizzie> Yes, and "Master" doesn't work everywhere; but certainly for many chipsets.
21:39:25 <fizzie> For the zd1201 USB stick I have, for example, you need a special firmware file in order to get it to AP mode.
21:39:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I haven't tried anything but managed mode
21:40:44 <AnMaster> btw does anyone know if firewire 400 and firewire 800 devices can interoperate?
21:40:54 <AnMaster> in this case I was thinking about ethernet over firewire
21:41:09 <fizzie> I did OS X's "Internet sharing" from my 3G modem to WLAN at the department student seminar thing which was out there in the wilderness; I'm not sure whether that makes the computer look like an AP or just publishes an ad-hoc wlan network, since obviously I couldn't see it myself. Other people had no trouble connecting, though.
21:42:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't have built in wlan?
21:42:24 <fizzie> Er, yes, of course, but there was no wlan available out there.
21:42:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, why the usb stick then?
21:42:41 <fizzie> So I had to use the built-in wlan to share the interwebs I got from the 3G stick to other people.
21:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "<fizzie> For the zd1201 USB stick I have, for example, you need a special firmware file in order to get it to AP mode."
21:42:57 <AnMaster> that sounded like it was a wlan thingy
21:43:00 <fizzie> That's from time before the iBook.
21:43:14 <ehird> fizzie: That was basically my hypothetical usecase, btw.
21:43:27 <ehird> Also, this iBook is one of the G4 ones and not a silly clamshell right?
21:43:27 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway yes of course it is possible.
21:43:46 <fizzie> Yes, it's the iBook G4.
21:44:06 <ehird> Shoulda got one of those scorching 12" PowerBooks :P
21:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a clamshell G3 one. Which would by that logic be even cooler
21:44:19 <ehird> There are no clamshell G4s
21:44:33 <fizzie> The "clamshell" model certainly looks more... professional, sure.
21:44:37 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Clamshell_iBook_G3.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Ibook12.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/IBook_G4.jpg
21:44:53 <ehird> (Note how ugly that second one's keyboard is!)
21:45:11 <fizzie> "Yes, all those strange squiggles in place of letters."
21:45:31 <ehird> But it looks crappy to type on.
21:46:30 <fizzie> Well, that's true. The G4 keyboard is not painful, though my space bar has a crack in the middle.
21:47:36 <ehird> By schorching I meant literally; those 12" PowerBook G4s — http://www.wap.org/journal/jan03/powerbookg500.jpg – were known to be unkind to thighs.
21:48:07 <fizzie> Pain is the price you pay for a spiffy laptop.
21:48:18 <ehird> In this case, I think "notebook".
21:48:38 <ehird> Because, you know, laps.
21:49:05 <fizzie> Just be sure to wear something non-flammable.
21:49:25 <ehird> "Gaim-Thinklight is a plugin for the multiprotocol messenger Gaim that makes the ThinkLight flash on incoming instant messages"
21:49:38 <ehird> Heh, it's by that german haskell... dude.
21:50:21 <ehird> Grr, archive.org respects robots.txt even for vanished sites
21:50:47 <fizzie> There is (was?) a kernel config option in the ppc-arch Linux kernel that made the "I'm sleeping" led in the iBook work as a HD led, flickering on disk activity. I think nowadays the led's been included in the sysfs-or-whatever-controllable things.
21:51:01 <ehird> The ThinkLight illuminates the whole keyboard, though.
21:51:06 <ehird> 'Tis rather more noticable.
21:51:21 <Sgeo> What is the ThinkLight usually used for?
21:52:22 <fizzie> Er, no. What made you think so?
21:52:41 <fizzie> Oh, that was just "ppc-architecture".
21:52:53 <fizzie> Though I think there are Arch users on channel, I've seen it talked about.
21:53:26 <fizzie> I'm more of a Debianist-by-tradition-if-not-for-other-reasons myself.
21:53:30 <fizzie> I wonder if this Logitech Illuminated backlight is somehow computer-controllable too. There's a special physical button to switch between "off" and the three intensity levels, it might be that they haven't bothered to build in any support for communicating back to the keyboard.
21:53:58 <ehird> [21:51] Sgeo: What is the ThinkLight usually used for?
21:54:01 <ehird> illuminating the whole keyboard.
21:54:09 <Sgeo> I mean, when it's controllled
21:54:28 <ehird> A notification, if you mean the gaim plugin.
21:54:40 <ehird> i.e., "Hey, you got IMed, look at your taskbar".
21:54:46 <Sgeo> What other programs use the ThinkLight like that?
21:54:51 <Sgeo> Is what I meant
21:55:14 <ehird> Sgeo: Related: http://tinyurl.com/mnos6w
21:56:40 <Sgeo> Apparently, Kopete, and Evolution *spit*
21:56:58 <ehird> I use Creationism instead.
21:57:03 <ehird> Well, "Creation" I guess.
21:57:24 <AnMaster> <fizzie> The "clamshell" model certainly looks more... professional, sure. <-- professional?
21:57:36 <ehird> It looks like a kid's fake laptop
21:57:38 <ehird> You know, those spelling tutor things
21:57:52 <Sgeo> What can Evolution do that Thunderbird+extensions can't do?
21:57:55 <fizzie> Er, this "lsusb -v" output for this keyboard is rather strange: there's 2 USB interfaces on the thing; first one is a HID-class Keyboard-protocol one (which makes sense) but the second one speaks the HID "Mouse" protocol. Both only do interrupt-transfers from the keyboard to computer, though.
21:57:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh that sounds familiar
21:58:17 <ehird> What can Linux do that Windows can't do, apart from not suck?
21:58:17 <xfire35> Do most people use linux/BSD distros on their computers here?
21:58:20 <Sgeo> (I mean, besides be all GNOME-exclusive-y)
21:58:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, hey don't steal my joke
21:58:36 <AnMaster> Sgeo, sync to pda without too much pain possibly
21:58:43 <ehird> xfire35: I use OS X, but on my new notebook will probably dual-boot Windows and Ubuntu or something.
21:58:56 <Sgeo> ehird, run the games that I want to play, without pain in either setting up WINE or setting up a VM
21:59:06 <Sgeo> AnMaster, Thunderbird has a caldendar extension
21:59:19 <ehird> Sgeo: Using your same method of talking, Thunderbird can't be called Evolution
21:59:20 <AnMaster> <xfire35> Do most people use linux/BSD distros on their computers here? <-- I certainly do
21:59:27 <ehird> Can you not comprehend that other people have different preferences?
21:59:29 <xfire35> But in linux, you could run it with a VM (XP) with less RAM required than Vista
21:59:29 <AnMaster> and I bet it is pretty common, not everyone though
22:00:08 <ehird> xfire35: But not much less than 7
22:00:16 <ehird> Anyway, VMs still don't work very well for 3D games.
22:00:37 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> What other programs use the ThinkLight like that? <-- anything that can be made to poke a file in /proc iirc
22:00:38 <xfire35> I can boot with less that 70mb RAM being used, that's into Openbox
22:00:57 <AnMaster> whatever, I prefer to use mine for what they are actually intended for
22:01:00 <fizzie> Probably in /sys, that's more modern.
22:01:06 <xfire35> Stick XP ontop, ~200mb, can 7 do it <300mb?
22:01:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think you can do it both ways
22:01:33 <ehird> People who I know use Linux in here: ais523, AnMaster, BeholdMyGlory, bsmntbombdood_, clog (:P), comex_, Deewiant, EgoBot (:P), fizzie, fungot, GregorR, HackEgo (:P), pikhq.
22:01:34 <fungot> ehird: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! we must use? take off. get off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
22:01:41 <fungot> ehird: but, we are far outnumbered! are you leaving! that sword alone can't stop, crono!
22:01:59 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:02:13 <fizzie> Sysfs-poking says the "keyboard" interface is event0, and the "mouse" in the keyboard is event1. What.
22:03:17 <fizzie> Hey, new people here → obligatory blurb: fungot's sources -- and don't start with the "sword alone can't stop" again -- are at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
22:03:17 * Sgeo uses Linux sometimes
22:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find! see ya around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
22:03:55 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Though I think there are Arch users on channel, I've seen it talked about. <-- me for example, I use Gentoo, Arch and Ubuntu.
22:04:31 <ehird> That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! ...
22:04:34 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> I mean, when it's controllled <-- it is to light up your keyboard. When it is dark. Fn+PgUp toggles it on/off.
22:05:21 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hey, new people here → obligatory blurb: fungot's sources -- and don't start with the "sword alone can't stop" again -- are at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 <-- wait I missed that. What is the sword alone thingy?
22:05:21 <fungot> AnMaster: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune!
22:05:34 -!- xfire35 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:05:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's what it often says in this ct style.
22:05:55 <fizzie> Well, sometimes, but repeatedly.
22:07:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I really should try that game. What with everything now I don't dare try to get it though. If you see what I mean.
22:07:25 <fizzie> I really don'y grok this keyboard. All normal key comes via the event0 device; but few of the silly media-keys ("home", "email", "search", uh... "a guy", "calculator", "eject", "music", "rewind", "play/pause", "fast forward") but not all (for example "thing-with-many-windows" and "cog-in-front-of-screen") come through event1.
22:07:37 <fizzie> (The things in quotes are my interpretations of the icons here.)
22:08:41 <fizzie> There's just this icon of a person in there, how am I supposed to know what it means? I guess it could look a little like something I've seen in a MSN-messenger-related context.
22:09:22 <fizzie> Heh, and typically all other keys except those three generate some keysyms according to xev.
22:09:46 <fizzie> I think there was a picture of this already available, I'll try to find it. That camera battery is somewhere I'm not sure where.
22:10:23 <fizzie> http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/logitech-illuminated-keyboard-full.jpg -- you can sort-of see them, though they're pretty small. I'm talking about the orange stuff on top of the function keys.
22:11:09 <AnMaster> wait, this sounds like a conspiracy!
22:11:14 <Deewiant> Why is there no insert button?
22:11:18 <fizzie> Okay, here's a big picture: http://www.ricdes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/21.jpg
22:11:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're going to have to ask logitech; but it's there above del, actually.
22:11:36 <Deewiant> And why is there no scroll lock button
22:11:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Scroll-lock's a Fn-style function on pause/break. And really, I have no clue what's up with the layout.
22:12:15 <fizzie> It just felt nice to write with, and they hadn't done *completely* horrible things to it.
22:12:34 <fizzie> The bottom row (with space bar) is raised a bit too much though.
22:12:40 <Deewiant> The caps lock button seems unnotched, which is nice
22:13:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't look like full depth?
22:13:12 <fizzie> It has those mostly-in-laptops scissor-style keyswitches, which I sort-of like.
22:13:15 <AnMaster> with that I mean traditional one
22:13:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't stand then on full sized ones
22:13:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, they're alright; better than rubber dome, at least
22:13:38 <AnMaster> it's somehow ok on laptops though
22:14:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, also how can you survive without "insert"?
22:14:08 <Deewiant> What almost every non-laptop keyboard these days comes with.
22:14:32 <AnMaster> sadly this keyboard I have here is showing slight jwz tendencies on ctrl and shift. Far from as bad yet
22:14:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: I just press delete accidentally instead. (Okay, not *every* time, and there *is* insert, it's just in the wrong place.)
22:14:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would that work?
22:14:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: As we just discussed, insert is there, just dislocated.
22:15:22 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#Dome-switch_keyboard ?
22:16:57 <fizzie> This is a weird sort of cross between the traditional and the modern turned-90-degrees strangeness, like the one seen in http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/23893_01.jpg
22:17:37 <fizzie> If that's the modern one. I'm not sure, I've just been seeing "2x3-sized-block instead of 3x2-sized block" keyboards in the recent years.
22:17:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, shudder that turned looks horrible
22:17:53 <fizzie> The fashion seems to have passed a bit now.
22:18:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think mine is rubber dome, yet it is quite nice to type on, compared to many other rubber dome ones.
22:18:26 <fizzie> There was some sort of "dump /dev/input/eventN format events in a human-readable form" app, but I can never remember the name.
22:19:03 <Deewiant> Yes, there are differences. But just about all rubber-dome switches suck compared to just about all mechanical switches.
22:19:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I never liked the clicky sound
22:19:29 <Deewiant> There are non-clicky mechanical switches as well.
22:22:18 <Deewiant> http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx has a Flash video in which a person demonstrates the sounds of various switches
22:22:52 <Deewiant> No rubber dome for comparison, though, IIRC.
22:23:04 <fizzie> Ah, it was called evdump. But dumping the events didn't help me much; it's like they've just arbitrarily decided to send a few of the USB key events through another endpoint, and one which says it speaks the "Mouse" HID protocol, yet still send key events. Or something.
22:24:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh. Got those keys working though?
22:24:27 <AnMaster> well I guess you wouldn't use them much
22:25:26 <AnMaster> all but one fn key combo works on my thinkpad. And that is Fn-PrtSc which is sysrq. Can't get magic sysrq to work
22:25:43 <fizzie> evdump says the thing-with-a-guy sends KEY_MESSENGER, but the two others send nothing recognizable.
22:25:59 <AnMaster> there is a KEY_MESSEGNER defined?
22:26:58 <ais523> from a markovbot in another channel: "Hold a decentlength intelligent conversation using six words or parentheses without being a lazy and don't pay the people entertained."
22:27:04 <AnMaster> and what sort of standard is it in?
22:27:17 <fizzie> #define KEY_MESSENGER 0x1ae /* AL Instant Messaging */
22:27:22 <fizzie> Obviously no sort of standard.
22:27:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, likely that other keyboards would define 0x1ae to be something else then?
22:28:11 <fizzie> It is possible that it's in the HID standards, actually.
22:28:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there a C compiler key?
22:28:36 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:29:25 <Sgeo> Should I watch the MST3k episode for Future War?
22:29:54 <fizzie> I doubt that; just "launching" a C compiler is probably not that useful.
22:30:09 <fizzie> There is a KEY_DATABASE, though.
22:31:08 <fizzie> And anyway these are the linux kernel keysyms, from the input layer; it's the driver's problem to translate whatever physical the keyboard sends into KEY_MESSENGER properly. I guess I could check which bit of code does that.
22:32:39 <fizzie> Heh, yes; /dev/input/by-id shows the first one as "usb-Logitech_Logitech_Illuminated_Keyboard-event-kbd" and the second one as "usb-Logitech_Logitech_Illuminated_Keyboard-event-mouse".
22:32:45 <fizzie> That's one rather strange mouse, I think.
22:34:57 <ais523> fungot: give me some markovness
22:34:57 <fungot> ais523: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it?
22:35:01 <fizzie> There's a "hid-lg" driver doing -- in lg_wireless_mapping -- case 0x1014: lg_map_key_clear(KEY_MESSENGER); My keyboard could possibly be handled by that, even though it's not wireless.
22:35:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:35:16 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
22:35:20 <Deewiant> Chrono Trigger seems like the best corpus yet
22:35:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's a matter of taste; I don't think AnMaster liked it much, or ehird either.
22:36:32 <fizzie> Actually the messenger key might even be in the standards; from hid-input.c: "case HID_UP_CONSUMER: /* USB HUT v1.1, pages 56-62 */ -- case 0x1bc: map_key_clear(KEY_MESSENGER); break;"
22:36:34 <Deewiant> For one, it seems to be relatively verbose
22:36:44 <AnMaster> just don't get the reference due to never having played the game
22:36:53 <ais523> what is the messenger key?
22:37:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's also the only one done with the variable-length n-gram toolkit, though with probably suboptimal parameters.
22:37:25 <fizzie> ais523: There's this icon of a... well, a guy, in one of the "media keys" of my keyboard. We were wondering what it does.
22:37:46 <ais523> ah, the button for opening MSN Messenger
22:37:54 <ais523> it's one of Microsoft's latest attempts to do yet more subtle lock-in
22:38:10 <ais523> wow, I hate Messenger so much...
22:38:37 <fizzie> The logo is not actually exactly the MSN/Live Messenger buddy-icon guy.
22:38:49 <fizzie> I still think I've seen this particular one somewhere.
22:39:45 <fizzie> Well, maybe I've seen it on my keyboard. Eh.
22:39:56 <ais523> I've seen it on someone else's keyboard
22:40:07 <ais523> wow, keyboards are so complicated nowadays, it doesn't really seem to help
22:40:21 <ais523> because all the random extra buttons are so far away that just chording with another modifier key is faster to type
22:40:43 <ais523> even shift-F11 is faster than pressing the shortcut-menu key, on this relatively simple laptop keyboard
22:40:46 <ais523> because I don't have to move my hand
22:41:29 <fizzie> Oh yes, it is in the USB standard.
22:41:50 <AnMaster> shift-f11 seems to insert something cryptic in my terminal when I try it
22:41:50 <ais523> AnMaster: on Windows, they're the keyboard equivalent of right-clicking on whatever's keyboard-focused
22:42:01 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you mean my compose key ;P
22:42:03 <fizzie> HID usage tables, "consumer page", 1BC -- "AL [Application Launch] Instant Messaging".
22:42:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that's possibly quite a good key to use as a compose key
22:42:36 <ais523> but when I have a compose key at all, it's C-x 8
22:42:36 <AnMaster> ok I sucessfully managed to talk PPP with my phone, didn't manage to connect using it though
22:42:58 <AnMaster> but not internet with computer using it
22:43:22 <fizzie> There are rather strange keys in here; "AL" launch keys for: "Digital Wallet", "Online Community", "Market Monitor/Finance Browser", "Research/Search Browser", "Customized Corporate News Browser".
22:43:23 <AnMaster> ais523, caps lock as additional ctrl btw
22:44:20 <AnMaster> also for some reason enabling blue tooth makes the computer "hiss". Very odd. High pitched noise (think CRT)
22:44:36 <AnMaster> similar issue that I had with some usb devices (sometimes)
22:44:45 <AnMaster> and the bluetooth shows up in lsusb hm
22:47:08 <fizzie> Aaaactually hey, it might be that the keys that come through the other event device because the keysyms are from another "usage class" (consumer device, vs. keyboard). Still doesn't explain why it pretends to be a mouse, though.
22:47:32 <Deewiant> My old mouse pretended to be a keyboard, IIRC.
22:53:56 <ehird> [22:10] fizzie: http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/logitech-illuminated-keyboard-full.jpg -- you can sort-of see them, though they're pretty small. I'm talking about the orange stuff on top of the function keys.
22:53:57 <ehird> I see no dudes, really ugly font, and ugh, I hate that layout of the del/home/end bit (have it on a keyboard here)
22:53:57 <ehird> [22:13] fizzie: It has those mostly-in-laptops scissor-style keyswitches, which I sort-of like.
22:53:57 <ehird> Scissor-switches are godly.
22:53:57 <ehird> [22:19] Deewiant: There are non-clicky mechanical switches as well.
22:53:59 <ehird> You still bottom out a hard surface, so it's clickier than rubber dome. Also, tactile switches are the devil; they're harder to type on, in my experience. But you can get non-clicky non-tactile mechanical switches too.
22:54:02 <ehird> [22:26] ais523: from a markovbot in another channel: "Hold a decentlength intelligent conversation using six words or parentheses without being a lazy and don't pay the people entertained."
22:54:05 <ehird> The first part is probably a direct quote.
22:54:25 <ais523> especially as "decentlength" isn't a correctly spelt word
22:54:39 <ais523> I thought it was an interesting concept, though
22:54:42 <ehird> It probably finished "lazy ass/bastard" or something.
22:55:12 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:56:44 <ehird> I wonder if you can buy a Model M-style keyboard to replace a laptop keyboard with :)
22:56:50 <ehird> IN A MEETING FAR, FAR AWAT
22:57:00 <ais523> ehird: you wouldn't replace the keyboard, you'd just use an external one
22:57:26 <ehird> And we are going to leverage the synergistic opperCLACK CLACK CLACKof the business poteCLACK CLACK CLACK and we SHUT THE FUCK UP, JOHN!
22:57:32 <ehird> ais523: That isn't portable.
22:57:53 <ehird> It always befuddles me when people buy a notebook and proceed to bog it down with a ton of stationary accessories.
22:58:38 <ais523> ehird: I'm somewhere in between; I can use my laptop either by itself or with accessories
22:58:40 <fizzie> ehird: There was a bigger picture later; the "guy" is in F4.
22:58:48 <ais523> I need an external mouse if I want to do mouse stuff at all, for instance
22:58:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, isn't one word missing from this fungot style?
22:59:00 <ais523> but overnight I'll just balance it on top of the duvet, and use it with nothing but the power cable
22:59:00 <ehird> That's not the MSN guy, at least.
22:59:07 <fungot> AnMaster: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
22:59:07 <fungot> AnMaster: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
22:59:12 <fizzie> Yes, it might just be some Logitech guy.
22:59:15 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
22:59:19 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
22:59:22 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:59:25 <fungot> AnMaster: the shape data in the corresponding ram at 57344-65535 ( e000-ffff). to do with the formula hibyte=int(ad/ 156) and an overflow error will occur. the opening of an and operation with the problem of mistaking the keyboard
22:59:27 <ehird> fizzie: Also, wow that Fn key is huge and replaces the windows/alt keys.
22:59:30 <ehird> I guess they hate ergonomics.
22:59:32 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
22:59:34 <fungot> AnMaster: not in the taskbar or alt-tab
22:59:35 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:59:40 -!- oklofok has joined.
22:59:50 <ehird> ais523: I plan to use my notebook with nothing plugged in or associated (wirelessly), even the power cable (unless at a desk).
22:59:55 <fizzie> Yes, the fn thing is another drawback in this. I don't really use it.
23:00:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, whatever that word for "only happened once" was
23:00:11 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
23:00:20 <ehird> This makes my standards for the notebook a lot more stringent, which is good because I don't want to be stuck using something inferior outsid.
23:00:47 <ehird> Well, I also have a requirement to get a laptop, not a notebook, so I should probably say that.
23:00:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: Huhwat, what word?
23:01:24 <fizzie> Oh, "only happened once" like *that*. Right.
23:01:34 <ehird> Your mom only "happened" once.
23:01:38 <ehird> She isn't very good in bed.
23:01:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway why isn't it saying fnord at all now?
23:02:02 <fizzie> I didn't do the replace-rare-token-with-UNK with all models.
23:02:26 <fizzie> Particularly for ones like the Chrono Trigger script where there's so little of data.
23:02:29 <ehird> I wonder why there aren't any notebooks that come with cooling pads attached
23:02:39 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
23:02:45 <fizzie> fungot: Say something fnordy, please.
23:02:46 <fungot> fizzie: that's a piece of source code anywhere there's whitespace. i think
23:03:04 <fizzie> That wasn't fnordy. But it should still be saying it occasionally.
23:03:10 <oerjan> fungot: 'ardly hever 'appens
23:03:11 <fungot> oerjan: i am listening to johnny cash fnord prison blues. -w and use strict; mitigate that somewhat, but it
23:03:21 <fizzie> oerjan: You're better at this.
23:03:36 <ehird> Using Perl switches helps mitigate the effects of Johnny Cash's album Fnord Prison Blues.
23:04:12 <oerjan> fizzie: http://xkcd.com/628/ may be relevant here
23:04:27 <ehird> I can reference xkcd. I am culturally relevant ETC
23:04:43 <ehird> http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2009/08/comic-628-i-predict-this-comic-sucks-i.html :P
23:05:01 <oerjan> no you cannot, you can only blather cynically
23:06:19 <ehird> Admittedly 628 was quite good.
23:11:37 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:12:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, and yeah that annotation was great
23:12:03 <oerjan> you say that as if it _matters_
23:12:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, I mean the deconstruction of the humour in the comment makes ryan north seem normal
23:12:58 <oerjan> i wasn't referring to your second line. how fast do you think i type?
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23:13:19 <AnMaster> (and you asked for it, if you haven't read it before mentioning it... it is your own fault)
23:13:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never mention it before I read it myself
23:14:03 <AnMaster> though if I mention it first I don't provide any spoilers until I'm sure you read it too
23:14:31 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:14:32 <AnMaster> but since you mentioned it first this time... of course that means I'm free to provide spoilers :P
23:14:42 <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3890449002_949d56b7c7_o.jpg is #1 on reddit. Not like everyone saw this in 2007 when Leopard came out or anything...
23:15:11 <ehird> The comments are predictably "gee this is horrible mindbending advertising" followed up by "LOL YEAH MAC USERS ARE DUMB".
23:15:35 <ehird> (I like how the blue screened monitor is shiny.)
23:15:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3890449002_949d56b7c7_o.jpg is #1 on reddit. Not like everyone saw this in 2007 when Leopard came out or anything... <--- is the icon for pc server actually like that on macs?
23:15:36 <oerjan> NANANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
23:16:06 <AnMaster> ehird, and that is a CRT too right?
23:16:37 <ehird> I've never seen a flat CRT other than the old TV in my life.
23:16:43 <ehird> I'm a low-end curmudgeon!
23:16:48 <ehird> Or a whippersnapper. WHO KNOWS
23:16:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I seen both flat and curved CRTs
23:17:10 <ehird> I'd like to see one of those super-awesome high end flat CRTs just so I can laugh at it because it's still blurry and whiny.
23:17:23 <AnMaster> ehird, whiny yes, but not blurry
23:17:31 <AnMaster> that is my experience at least
23:17:38 <AnMaster> and less whiny than low end ones
23:17:40 <ehird> Every CRT I've seen has been extraordinarily blurry; is there really _that_ much variance?
23:17:48 <ehird> I'd think it's inherent, knowing how CRTs work.
23:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you never seen high end ones then
23:17:55 <ehird> They're not exactly LCD plotted pixels...
23:18:39 <ehird> Different from Template:See, this template takes a mutiple parameters of any length.
23:18:39 <AnMaster> ehird, that is true, but I'm talking about good ones at pre-press or similar. Seen those since I know someone working on a newspaper.
23:18:39 <ehird> Use commas and joining words like "and" or "or" as separators.
23:18:39 <ehird> Remember to wikilink the target pages; the template does not do it automatically.
23:18:55 <ehird> Section template samples
23:18:57 <ehird> AnMaster: "Yes" as in "indeed, I haven't".
23:19:17 <ehird> But really, IPS gets such good colour reproduction nowadays that anyone buying a new CRT in such a field is just stupid.
23:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, "that is true" as in "<ehird> They're not exactly LCD plotted pixels..."
23:20:15 <AnMaster> ehird, also the colours were awesome. And calibrated with high end hang on thingy. Of course this was a few years ago. As in "when apple still made high end pre-press CRTs"
23:20:29 <ehird> Hey yeah, Apple did used to make CRTs.
23:21:03 <AnMaster> since I used first and second model imacs too
23:21:11 <ehird> The iMac CRTs are blurry.
23:21:18 <AnMaster> ehird, not as bad as most PC ones
23:21:26 <ehird> I have one (I broke its optical drive somehow after wiping the OS so it won't boot)
23:21:28 <AnMaster> and the good apple ones were MUCH better
23:21:42 <ehird> Apple seem to be rather a fan of high-quality displays; Apple's 24" glossy Cinema Display, aimed squarely at the secondary notebook display crowd, is IPS...
23:22:11 <ehird> — and therefore everyone goes "OMG APPLE MARKUP" because it costs $899, having now idea what the words IPS or TN mean.
23:22:38 <ais523> ehird: TN = twisted-nematic?
23:22:42 <ehird> Oh, it's also LED backlit, making it part of a very rare breed: LED-backlit IPS.
23:22:53 <ehird> IPS = Best LCD technology EVAR
23:23:03 <ehird> Huge gamut, really wide viewing angles (basically NO colour distortion)
23:23:12 <pikhq> So, that's a damned good monitor.
23:23:13 <ais523> I'm one of those people who knows enough electronics to know about twisted-nematics, but not enough ehirdness to know whether it's meant to be good or bad
23:23:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the downside now again?
23:23:25 <ais523> AnMaster: probably price
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23:23:43 <ehird> Downsides: It's very thick, so you'll only find it on separate units. It's heavy, so ditto. And the displays cost around $1,000.
23:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, so not very "flat" screen then?
23:24:09 <ehird> It's flat, just a bit thick.
23:24:10 <pikhq> (which makes sense -- Apple has always been obsessive about their display quality)
23:24:21 <ehird> Apple's 24" is 19cm deep and probably the thinnest.
23:24:34 <ehird> Some are as thick as modern iMacs.
23:24:50 <ehird> http://www.apple.com/displays/
23:24:58 <ehird> ais523: TN has terrible colour reproduction, and the colours distort very quickly if you tilt them a bit
23:25:07 <ehird> but they're thin and cheap, so they're on almost all notebooks and desktops
23:25:14 <ais523> ehird: yes, it was invented for black-and-white, so I'm not at all surprised
23:25:29 <ehird> What you're looking at right now is almost certainly TN.
23:25:35 <ehird> I think the iMac displays are IPS.
23:25:41 <ehird> Mine certainly has all the properties of it.
23:25:44 <ais523> although, it's pretty good for looking at images with borked alphas
23:25:53 <ehird> The newer models are glossy, mine isn't.
23:25:59 <ehird> This is pretty much my favourite display ever.
23:26:07 <ais523> I can change the gamma of the screen through a massively large range just by tilting it
23:26:13 <fizzie> The side profile certainly looks like most of the 19cm is still the stand, http://images.apple.com/displays/gallery/images/image4_20081014.jpg
23:26:15 <ais523> also, this screen works in direct sunlight, which surprises me
23:26:21 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, I see.
23:26:29 <ehird> ais523: Is it glossy?
23:26:31 <ehird> AnMaster: See fizzie.
23:26:53 <pikhq> Huh. Just played with tilting my LCD screen a bit.
23:27:03 <ehird> ais523: Glossy displays tend to wash out in the sun as opposed to matte ones, which just get blocked out
23:27:05 <ais523> it basically just reflects the sunlight rather than using a backlight
23:27:13 <ehird> OTOH, glossy displays are awful indoors
23:27:17 <AnMaster> my laptop has more colour distortion than my desktop for some reason
23:27:35 <AnMaster> even though neither is IPS. Definitely not pricey enough for that
23:27:35 <ehird> Anyway, this iMac has, like, two dead pixels. And the colours are perfect. And it's really sharp. Only disadvantage is that the contrast is kind of crap.
23:27:37 <pikhq> ... I'm not noticing the usual LCD distortion. Maybe I'm just bad at noticing that on modern LCDs, because I'm pretty damned sure this is a crappy monitor.
23:27:52 <ehird> I wake it up from sleep in the morning and think "wow, those whites aren't very...white".
23:28:06 <ehird> pikhq: Try moving instead and looking at it from an angle
23:28:37 <AnMaster> ehird, contrast doesn't matter iirc?
23:28:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Backlight
23:28:45 <ehird> instead of display contrast
23:28:47 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, another disadvantage of IPS: response times
23:29:02 <ehird> Most IPSes are 16ms response time, give or take.
23:29:10 <ehird> Although their gray-to-gray response times are about 8ms.
23:29:13 <ais523> LCD is never going to get up to the response times of things like LEDs; but then, LEDs are impractical for screens smaller than a few metres
23:29:14 <ehird> Still, it's fine for everything but gaming.
23:29:25 <pikhq> It exists, but is barely noticable.
23:29:45 <ehird> ais523: They're thin, have good colours, incredibly good contrast and don't need any backlight.
23:29:51 <ehird> And they can be translucent.
23:29:59 <ehird> And use very low power.
23:30:02 <ehird> And are very lightweight.
23:30:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what about response time?
23:30:07 <ehird> Can't wait for them to become practical
23:30:19 <AnMaster> ehird, then why isn't everyone using them!?
23:30:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Very large expense right no
23:30:29 <ehird> Wait a year or two
23:30:38 <ais523> LEDs have response times so good that they're often pulsed at incredibly fast speeds rather than dimming them
23:30:40 <pikhq> That's not stopping them from being used, though.
23:30:49 <pikhq> Just in displays of reasonable cost.
23:31:02 <ehird> But yeah, OLEDs are like someone wrote in a deus ex machina to a book about displays.
23:31:20 <ais523> in fact, pulsing LEDs means you can put more power into them
23:31:34 <pikhq> (you can *get* OLED TV sets, they just cost a lot.)
23:31:42 <ehird> And they're only like 11"
23:31:42 <ais523> and if you want a really bright LED display, it works better to massively overdrive them about 20% of the time and let them recover the other 80%, then run them at max continuously
23:31:54 <ehird> I wonder if PVA (compromise between IPS and TN; a bit worse colour reproduction but faster response times) is thinner than IPS.
23:32:03 <ehird> I'm sure there's been some IPS ThinkPad at some point, though.
23:32:10 <ehird> Eh. High-quality TN is "acceptable".
23:32:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not when it comes to colour
23:32:48 <pikhq> I'm going to randomly guess I have high-quality TN, simply because the gamma distortion is only even barely noticable at rather high angles.
23:32:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Fine for most photography, at least.
23:32:59 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I'm going to randomly guess I have high-quality TN, simply because the gamma distortion is only even barely noticable at rather high angles. <-- same
23:33:06 <ehird> pikhq: How much did your display cost?
23:33:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Naturally.
23:33:17 <ehird> (http://static2.rubyrow.net/Advertisers/bluebox1.gif How ironic! The space is misplaced.)
23:33:23 <ehird> pikhq: You just have bad eyes, or got lucky.
23:33:28 <ehird> Your colour reproduction still sucks balls.
23:33:33 <AnMaster> ehird, when I talk about high quality monitors I mean the same thing that Apple do :P
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23:34:04 <pikhq> I can notice the crap color reproduction. Just not much distortion.
23:34:22 <pikhq> (I've seen it on other LCD displays. That's just... Horrifying)
23:34:22 <ehird> My display doesn't even dim until I'm practically perpendicular with it
23:34:40 <AnMaster> In general I found distortion is worse on laptops than desktops
23:34:49 <ehird> I wonder whether all those "LOL APPLE COMPUTERS ARE OVERPRICED" comparisons include an IPS display.
23:35:27 <pikhq> Eh, there is a good chunk of markup from Apple, but a lot of the price delta *is* from Apple just straight-up using more expensive parts.
23:35:50 <ehird> I think Apple adds something like 25-30%
23:35:55 <ehird> which is typical for high-end products
23:35:57 <pikhq> Sounds about right.
23:36:46 <fizzie> There's a 40" OLED 1920x1200 panel from Samsung. (Of course you can't *buy* it, it was just demoed in some sort of trade show from their pilot non-mass-production line.
23:37:06 <ehird> Samsung or someone are releasing a 19" OLED, iirc
23:37:07 <fizzie> No, 1920x1080. Anyway.
23:37:17 <ehird> fizzie: Nice 55dpi there.
23:37:27 <ehird> (Yeah, yeah, TV, I know.)
23:37:52 <AnMaster> wouldn't a 200 dpi TV be just awesome?
23:37:59 <fizzie> The 40" demo was already back in 2008, I guess they should be getting something produced sooner or later too.
23:38:42 <ehird> AnMaster: no, because anything above 1080p isn't available anywhere
23:38:56 <ehird> Besides, at around 175dpi you can't see pixels without a magnifying glass.
23:39:06 <ehird> Anything above that just gets much more expensive quickly.
23:39:12 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no kill like overkill
23:39:22 <ehird> You just made that up, please tell me you just made that up.
23:39:26 <ehird> Because it's STUPID.
23:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill
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23:39:48 <ehird> Safari is so irritating after having used Chrome on XP.
23:39:57 <AnMaster> ehird, answer is: no, I just wanted to be able to link tvtroupes
23:40:03 <ehird> If there's one thing that setup was, it was snappy.
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23:40:36 <ehird> It's ropes onna TV.
23:41:00 <AnMaster> ehird, did you click that link?
23:41:10 <ehird> Yes, and closed it after having only clicked one more page, not in a tab.
23:41:16 <ehird> I am manly and I have willpower.
23:41:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean you were trying to tropise ehird
23:41:25 <ehird> By the way, if you don't correct it soon that typo will be forever typo'd.
23:41:35 <ehird> AND YOU WILL NEVER LIVE DOWN THE SHAME
23:41:56 <ais523> (incidentally, I've never visited TV Trpoes and don't know what all the fuss is about, but loads of people have warned me off it)
23:42:21 <ehird> ais523: It's addictive because they link almost everything and it's always to an interesting and funny article about that thing with tons of examples and you click it and
23:42:25 <AnMaster> ais523, it is just very... addicting
23:42:48 <AnMaster> ais523, you know that xkcd about clicking around on wikipedia for hours? Well it is kind of like that, but more extreme
23:43:07 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm unlikely to know about any particular xkcd unless it's been quoted so much that you get kickbanned for quoting it again
23:43:24 <fizzie> Ropes are the "very long strings" class in SGI's STL implementation.
23:43:25 <AnMaster> ais523, you can get kickbanned for quoting xkcd?
23:43:25 <ehird> Don't worry, you're not missing out on anything. xkcd suuuuuuucks lately.
23:43:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Tons of IRC channels are heavily policed in that way to make the conversation better.
23:43:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've never seen it happen, but probably
23:44:02 <ehird> Experience shows that an anarchic environment is a lot less annoying and generally has at least as good conversation quality.
23:44:03 <ais523> AnMaster: which one's that?
23:44:05 <AnMaster> also that one is old enough to not suck
23:44:09 <ais523> I don't know the numbers off by heart yet
23:44:12 <ehird> ais523: It's about Batman
23:44:13 <AnMaster> ais523, ... the one about clicking around on wikipedia
23:44:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Stop it, you're feeding his I Will Not Use a Web Browser habit :P
23:44:58 <ehird> ais523: The thing with xkcd is that there's hardly ever a punchline.
23:45:05 <ehird> It's funny because, uhh, you're culturally in-the-know or something.
23:45:10 <ais523> I do get some of them, though
23:45:23 <ehird> You know what Wikipedia is! Sometimes I get to wildly different pages when clicking on Wikipedia.
23:45:25 <ehird> You may have done this!
23:45:33 <ehird> You can sympathise with me and understand my cultural position.
23:45:39 <ehird> Therefore: Ha ha ha! Humour!
23:45:43 <AnMaster> ais523, and I get that xkcd. Ever realised that you ended up clicking around for hours?
23:45:47 <ais523> oh, xkcd is meant to be funny?
23:45:51 <ais523> I thought it was meant to be insightful
23:46:00 <ehird> ais523: it fails even harder at that...
23:46:07 <ehird> AnMaster: That does not a joke make.
23:46:18 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but it is insightful
23:46:33 <ehird> Incidentally, something xkcdsucks pointed out: Every time a girl is named in xkcd, the name Megan is used. And: http://xkcd.com/215/
23:46:43 <ehird> Bawwwwwwwwwwwwww she broke up with me maybe if I mention her in my comic all the time ;_;
23:47:01 <ehird> I'd seriously bet he actually broke up with someone called Megan
23:47:31 <ais523> ehird: http://xkcd.com/322/ has a girl named Joanna
23:47:50 <ehird> Hmm, dark-haired girl then
23:47:54 <ehird> But still, almost all
23:48:03 <ehird> That comic, incidentally, also lacks a joke
23:48:14 <ehird> Unless his ANGER AT PEOPLE MAKING BAD JOKES ON THE INTERNET transforms into humour somehow
23:48:26 <ais523> yes; but I'm on xkcd's IRC network atm playing mafia, and comic 322 is the strongest-enforced rule there
23:49:18 <ehird> Willingly spending time around xkcd fanatics? Well, I guess mafia doesn't involve too much discussion beyond, well, mafia.
23:49:47 <ais523> ehird: the channel appears to have nothing to do with xkcd in particular, apart from the server
23:49:55 <ais523> it's mostly full of nomic players, it seems sometimes
23:50:01 <ais523> well, about the same density as this channel
23:50:01 <ehird> foonetic isn't xkcd's network, btw
23:50:13 <ehird> it's just only popular because of xkc
23:50:29 <ais523> well, I was connecting via irc.xkcd.com
23:50:34 <ais523> but I suppose I could just connect directly
23:50:39 <ehird> It's Ubuntu's IRC network!
23:50:55 <ais523> ehird: is that freenode or not? I failed to determine after trying to tell for a while
23:51:03 <ais523> it seems to be sort-of freenode, but sort-of not
23:51:08 <ehird> ais523: How is it not
23:51:19 <ais523> ehird: e.g. it recognised that the name ais523 was taken, but wouldn't let me identify
23:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, you could have joined #esoteric to check
23:51:30 <ehird> Maybe it's a different Freenode server.
23:51:31 <ais523> IIRC, this was ages ago
23:51:54 <AnMaster> ais523, or just used host or nslookup
23:52:07 <AnMaster> "irc.ubuntu.com is an alias for chat.freenode.net."
23:52:29 -!- ais523_telnet has joined.
23:52:30 <AnMaster> irc.freenode.net is an alias for chat.freenode.net.
23:52:30 <ehird> Who even uses chat.freenode.net as opposed to irc.?
23:52:50 <ehird> Yes, but directly.
23:52:57 <ehird> [23:52] AnMaster: "irc.ubuntu.com is an alias for chat.freenode.net."
23:53:15 <ais523_telnet> I noticed that, but I was halfway through the test already
23:53:27 <ais523_telnet> and it's rather hard to notice other people's messages over tlenet while you're typing
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23:55:05 <ehird> I wonder if my dream last night was lucid or just fake-lucid (i.e. dreaming I was lucid).
23:55:18 <ehird> I was certainly very apprehensive about jumping out of the window despite a good amount of proof I was dreaming.
23:56:14 <ehird> I suppose that could just be my "don't jump out of windows" instinct, but I'm usually out of that window pretty quickly after becoming lucid. (I always seem to start lucid dreams in my bedroom when it's day.)
23:57:16 <AnMaster> (idea: convince him that he is dreaming to make him jump out his window?)
23:57:38 <ehird> That would require rather drastic changes to the fabric of reality.
23:58:08 <ehird> Also, I never open it, it's always just open when I'm about to jump.
23:58:17 <ehird> Although one time I jumped out of it while it was closed, I think.
23:58:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what about me starting talking about advanced stuff in haskell suddenly?
23:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, or ais talking like Mike Riley?
23:59:43 <AnMaster> (and not in the context of making some joke)
23:59:48 <ehird> Ooh, I remember one missed opportunity for lucidity from ages ago: I was in the bathroom, just standing around. Suddenly, a translucent, unrealistic ... old army? I don't know, but a stampede, came running through. To avoid them, even though they appeared entirely intangible, I ... went on the wall? Or just stayed to the side. Something, anyway. They passed. I remember thinking about dreams at one point, but obviously that was real. I didn't think it strange
00:00:06 <ehird> ^add a .; I typed it but my client stripped it
00:00:36 <AnMaster> ehird, two chars stripped for me and fizzie, remember that
00:00:43 <AnMaster> and seriously fix that bug in your client
00:00:45 <ehird> Not me, it's my client
00:01:02 <oerjan> ais523: KeyMaker missed a spam page today: Talk:Main Page/index.php
00:01:16 <ehird> Hmm, the T43's battery life isn't all that good; 5 hours 23 minutes
00:01:39 <ehird> But no, not really; I'm looking for 6 hours, minimum.
00:01:47 <ehird> The X200 gets up to 9 hours.
00:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and since you won't use cd probably just get an ultrabay battery as well
00:01:57 <AnMaster> note that both can't charge at once
00:01:58 <ehird> Can you do that? The T43 is from 2005.
00:02:11 <ehird> It still has IBM on it.
00:02:27 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that guy I met at uni with the 9 cell battery had an ultrabay too, said he got close to 14 hours or something like that
00:02:40 <ehird> How much did he get without? I guess it was X-series.
00:02:53 <ehird> But the ultrabay battery is presumably heavier than the optical drive, no?
00:02:59 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't look like that X series pic you showed me
00:03:16 <ehird> That's a new X-series.
00:03:16 <AnMaster> rather more like mine, and as I said, it was IBM era
00:03:42 <ehird> Also, since you can choose different WiFi cards and stuff, I suppose I could replace it with a draft-n one.
00:03:49 <ehird> when I replace the HD with an SSD
00:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and I didn't ask about it without ultrabay
00:04:09 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure you can get at the wifi card easily
00:04:12 <ehird> Apparently, the T42 was lighter and faster than the T43... but at expense of battery
00:04:50 <AnMaster> I mean... how fast is your internet connection?
00:04:59 <ehird> All I know is that this WiFi is slow.
00:05:08 <ehird> 200kiB/s vs 800kiB/s.
00:05:13 <AnMaster> ehird, how many bars or whatever do you get there?
00:05:23 <ehird> It could just be a shitty antenna.
00:05:33 <ehird> I'm afraid to consider things older than T60, anyway; they're all single-core Pentium M affairs.
00:05:39 <ehird> Seems like it'd be upsettingly slow.
00:05:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and what speed is it? On AP I mean
00:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, 11a, 11b or 11g, or even pre-n?
00:06:33 <ehird> It's, uh, the one before n.
00:06:38 <ehird> It's a shitty ISP-provided "Livebox".
00:06:45 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:300 ;; want!
00:07:31 <ehird> Who cares? It probably runs DOS
00:07:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well then I bet the issue is either latency or crappy AP
00:07:48 <ehird> The AP is across the room.
00:07:51 <ehird> I doubt it is latency.
00:08:02 <AnMaster> ehird, latency is always larger than for ethernet IME
00:08:22 <ehird> Well 200kiB/s just isn't acceptable; I can get 800kiB/s, dammit, and I want to use a good portion of that.
00:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, especially if AP doesn't support short preamble
00:08:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I bet you will need to replace your AP then
00:08:54 <ehird> I have one of those Linuxable blue/green Linksys routers with the sticky-up antennae.
00:09:12 <ehird> And also a similarly-styled Linksys ADSL modem; just a question of linking those together sometime.
00:09:22 <AnMaster> ehird, because pre-N isn't going to be any better than g at 200 vs 800
00:09:32 <ehird> Surely it speeds up the non-internet stuff, though?
00:09:35 <ehird> Like, the overhead.
00:09:35 <AnMaster> since 11g should manage 800 kbps without issue
00:09:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well it speeds up LAN yes
00:10:07 <ehird> I guess I could get very large antennae for the Linksys AP.
00:10:14 <ehird> I'm sure you can buy gigantic ones.
00:10:27 <fizzie> Oh, I get ads for gigantic ones every day in my inbox.
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00:10:51 <ehird> Why aren't there houses with antennae in the walls, I wonder?
00:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway latency will always be higher with wlan than switched ethernet. Always
00:11:04 <fizzie> But really, with a 802.11g AP in the same room you indeed should get reasonable speeds; it goes theoretically up to 54 Mbps == 6.75 MB/s.
00:11:15 <AnMaster> probably also true for routered ethernet
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00:13:45 <ehird> Is switched ethernet, like, direct computer-to-computer?
00:15:07 <ais523> no, switching's like networking without any intelligence in the routers
00:15:15 <ais523> so instead, the computers at each end have to work out the routes for themselves
00:15:36 <ais523> it works well for things like relatively small company networks, though
00:16:00 <fizzie> There's quite a bit of intelligence in a modern switch, though; for things like sensible multicast forwarding only to listening ports and such.
00:16:03 <ehird> seems like it'd be less of a pain to just buy an AP
00:16:30 <fizzie> The student housing network (which I assume had few thousand hosts) used to be a single gigantic Ethernet segment, and it worked reasonably well.
00:16:41 <fizzie> (Except when people misconfigured things.)
00:16:45 <AnMaster> ehird, *shrug* anyway latency will always be less with ethernet. A lot less if AP doesn't support short preambles
00:16:45 <ehird> that's a ton of wasted CPU time :P
00:16:56 <ehird> AnMaster: *a lot more
00:17:09 <ais523> as part of my final-year project, I had to design a hardware implementation of a networking switch
00:17:29 <ais523> (nothing quite as complex as ethernet, though, just simple packets made up of address and data)
00:17:40 <AnMaster> ehird, ethernet will have a LOT less latency if AP doesn't support short preamble
00:17:43 <fizzie> Nowadays it's about "one network segment per 50 apartments" and DHCP.
00:17:49 <ais523> and I managed to make it work for arbitrary sizes despite VHDL's amazingly annoying lack of recursion
00:18:18 <ehird> Silicon recursion: proving space is continuous since 2010
00:18:29 <ais523> ehird: it bottomed out, and it's unrolled by the compiler
00:18:31 <ehird> The circuit keeps getting smaller!
00:18:34 <ehird> ais523: Shush you :P
00:18:48 <ais523> but still, it's quite difficult to design the code so that the code doesn't get bigger when the number of inputs does
00:19:23 <ais523> it was ridiculous, I had one array which held all the temp vars, and lots of polynomials to index it
00:19:31 <fizzie> Some of those "broadband routers" have been made with the assumption that Internet access is slow, which means that if you plug a direct 100M/100M Internet connection in the "WAN" port, and then connect a computer with 100M Ethernet directly to the "router" (I hesitate to call them that), it's unable to transfer full-speed, since it's built on some really crappy general-purpose-CPU embedded platform and runs some equally silly software on it.
00:19:34 <ais523> (it reminded me a lot of esoprogramming, in fact)
00:20:01 <fizzie> This was a often-noticed thing in the student networking newsgroup.
00:20:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well for me the wan port looks like a special modem port
00:20:20 <ais523> fizzie: heh, I see the reasoning there
00:20:29 <ehird> The only real routers are pentium 3 boxes.
00:21:05 <fizzie> Yes, well, for routers that include an ADSL modem, it sort-of makes sense to make some assumptions about the maximum speed.
00:21:06 <ehird> A bunch of people use old computers as routers because, you know, who cares about noise, space or power consumption, let's be cool and use this as a router.
00:22:10 <ehird> Incidentally, it seems that Amazon has old ThinkPads, although unfortunately at low CPU speeds.
00:22:14 <fizzie> But there are WLAN dealies with "single Ethernet interface for an external internet, like a separate ADSL box, and then a four-port switch for the LAN" and still design the hardware so that it can't route and NAT packets from LAN to WAN at full speed.
00:22:38 <fizzie> Oh, and a wlan ap in all that; that's why I said "WLAN dealies".
00:22:54 <ehird> But seriously, I won't survive on a single-core Pentium M, will I?
00:23:44 <ais523> ehird: I probably would, but somehow I suspect you wouldn't
00:25:07 <ehird> I'm basically comfortable with this early-model 2.16ghz Core 2 Duo and 2.5GB of RAM, but I'll be putting an SSD in the notebook, so that gives it quite a performance advantage. Still, single-core is kind of bad.
00:25:08 <AnMaster> ehird, how did you manage 5 years ago?
00:25:28 <ehird> Five years ago I was only starting to program shitty PHP craps, and my system had so much crap on it I don't even know.
00:25:35 <ehird> And it crashed So. Much.
00:25:57 <ehird> It was that frankenstein a-bit-here-a-bit-there cobbled PC that existed in so many various configurations since 1998.
00:26:00 <AnMaster> well XP is quite stable for being windows
00:26:17 <ehird> The only way I can describe that machine is a constant war between crappy hardware.
00:26:20 <ehird> And man, it was so loud.
00:26:28 <ehird> I slept a meter away from it, and it took me ages to adjust.
00:26:30 <ehird> WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIR
00:26:34 <fizzie> And speaking of old computers as a router, I admit I'm one of those people.
00:26:35 <ehird> Such a loud, deep noise.
00:26:41 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't shut it down at night?
00:26:54 <ehird> No, because starting it up took about three to five minutes.
00:26:58 <fizzie> (Except that I did put the Atom box in to work as the router to eat a bit less electricity.)
00:27:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Whoa! Too advanced to work.
00:27:24 <ehird> No, that did not work.
00:27:28 <ehird> AnMaster: The case, optical drives and disks survive today
00:27:42 <ehird> But everything else was replaced recently. It is serving as my mother's computer
00:27:58 <ehird> It's now an AMD Athlon X2 thing. Still quite noisy.
00:28:09 <ehird> AnMaster: The 80GB is still an installation of Windows since at least 2006.
00:28:18 <ehird> The 500GB, which is the one that is used, is Ubuntu 9.04.
00:28:41 <ehird> She used the 80GB until late last year, when I installed Ubuntu, and it's been about 10x less sluggish ever since.
00:29:08 <ehird> I think that particular one probably dated back to 2005.
00:29:39 <ehird> But yeah, I haven't really "coped" with any computer before this one.
00:30:24 <AnMaster> ehird, sure does. My desktop is noisy. Couldn't sleep in same room
00:30:30 <ehird> Oh, you mean the bed
00:30:45 <ehird> This computer makes a barely audible hum, but I'm sensitive enough that I still put it to sleep.
00:31:01 <ehird> Well, it clicks a bit when the disk is working.
00:31:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I have above normal hearing too so... yeah
00:31:13 <ehird> But it's something like 23dBA.
00:31:18 <ehird> measured by silentpcreview about that
00:31:24 <AnMaster> zalman tnn... would be so cool
00:31:33 <ehird> And around 20dBA thinks become completely inaudible
00:31:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Actually, it can handle a quad-core CPU
00:31:47 <ehird> just not a good graphics card with it
00:32:01 <ehird> So use a dual-core CPU
00:32:12 <ehird> Also, the current TNN sold is an (iirc, less beefy) Mini-ATX variant; you'd have to get it from a retailer that has some stockpiled.
00:32:24 <ehird> AnMaster: You wouldn't be able to get _high_ end.
00:33:12 <AnMaster> ehird, actually, I'd just get http://helmer3.sfe.se/ and place it on another floor. Wait... Make that "another building" even
00:33:21 <ehird> I'd say the max you could get would be 9600 GT + 2.6GHz dual-core
00:33:36 <ehird> Which isn't a powerhouse by any measure, but the SSD should make it very snappy.
00:33:41 <ehird> And also, you know, more silent.
00:34:52 <ehird> AnMaster: But, er, "The completely fanless case, power supply and heatpipe-based cooling system was massive, heavy, and very expensive, well over US$1,000."
00:35:14 <ehird> Introduced 2003; that sentence is from a "background" section of an early 2006 review of a pre-assembled computer based on it.
00:35:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I was thinking about the heat
00:35:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Think about the damn price!
00:35:44 <AnMaster> and you know radiation. It would be like having a dual screen laptop right on your lap when standing a few meters away!
00:35:49 <ehird> TNN-500AF + X25-M is already nearing $2,000
00:36:19 <ehird> Add the rest of the computer components, totalling say around $700
00:36:31 <ehird> and that makes $2,700 for a mid-end system
00:36:36 <ehird> well, better since it's SSD, but
00:37:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, er, http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/epcn-tnn500/epcn1.jpg
00:37:22 <ehird> Yes, those wheels are needed; it's something like 30kg.
00:37:47 <ehird> I want a TNN notebook!
00:37:59 <ehird> Bonus: Sell it as a cheap method of birth control
00:38:13 <ehird> Well, okay. Not cheap.
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01:17:31 <ehird> http://porg.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/unicodedata-520d2txt.mp3 Unicode makes passable chiptune noise music (warning: loud).
01:17:55 <ais523> is that mp3 that's also valid unicode?
01:18:09 <ehird> It's `lame -r -m m -s 16 --bitwidth 8 ~/Downloads/UnicodeData-5.2.0d2.txt` where that file is http://unicode.org/Public/5.2.0/ucd/UnicodeData-5.2.0d12.txt.
01:18:12 <ehird> From http://porg.es/blog/what-unicode-sounds-like.
01:18:16 <ehird> It actually sounds good.
01:18:25 <ehird> I legitimately like it, musically.
01:21:42 <ais523> hmm... I just had the ridiculous idea of writing a brainfuck misinterpreter
01:21:52 <ais523> as in, it reads in a BF program, then runs it incorrectly
01:22:02 <ehird> that is indeed ridiculous. forget it quickly
01:22:33 <ais523> hmm... although I still think Befunge2K is an interesting idea
01:22:45 <ais523> (befunge, all commands have a constant chance of being no-ops rather than doing what they should do)
01:22:54 <ais523> I wonder if it's possible to write a program that's 100% guaranteed to work?
01:23:12 <ais523> (also: should # and ; be affected? they aren't really commands...)
01:24:29 <ehird> every command could fail
01:25:44 <ais523> ehird: you could set it up so that it's in an infinite loop until the commands start working, though
01:25:58 <ais523> for instance, if going vertically, _ has a different failure behaviour to success behaviour, entirely
01:26:14 <ais523> and say you arranged it so that the TOS was 0 unless the previous command had run correctly...
01:26:16 <ehird> ais523: probability, though
01:26:20 <ehird> you could get fails, all the time
01:26:23 <ehird> even though it has p=0
01:26:31 <ais523> ehird: that's still 100% guaranteed to work
01:26:58 <ais523> if something has p=1 of working, it's 100% likely to work
01:26:58 <ehird> well, sure, it is certain to happen, it's just that it's perfectly possible not to
01:29:13 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110
01:32:58 <ehird> lol, I like how people are claiming that IBM wanted the PC to be cloneable
01:33:13 <ehird> being that that's, you know, the opposite of reality
01:33:20 <ehird> they desperately wanted a monopoly
01:40:29 <Sgeo> Why was the IBM PC so clonable, as opposed to other machines?
01:40:46 <ehird> apart from being quite off-the-shelf
01:40:59 <ehird> but heck, the IBM PC *sucked*
01:41:36 <ehird> I mean, the Apple Lisa came out two years later and was massively better, albeit more expensive
01:41:42 <ehird> Next year the Macintosh, which was like half the price
01:41:51 <ehird> Whereas the PC was, uhh, sucking.
01:58:57 <ehird> HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE.
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01:59:22 <oerjan> `wolfram How many people are
01:59:28 <ehird> I think it's a good question,
01:59:48 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
01:59:55 <HackEgo> How many people are \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ all countries \ Summary: \ \ population \ \ total highest lowest \ \ 6.68 billion people 1.31 billion people China 48 people Pitcairn Islands \ 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009 estimates \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on September 5, 2009 from Champaign,
02:00:01 <HackEgo> fuck \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ fuck English word \ Definitions: \ \ fuck \ \ slang for sexual intercourse \ \ Word origins: \ \ Old English Middle English Classical Latin first recorded use: 1916 93 years ago \ Pronunciation: \ \ f \ \ k \ \ f' uhk \ \ Synonyms: \ \ fuck \ \ nookie shtup \ \ nooky \ \ piece of
02:00:08 <ehird> 6.68 billion people are.
02:00:17 <ehird> ...also, nookie shtup.
02:02:33 <Sgeo> `wolfram Scientology
02:02:40 <HackEgo> Scientology \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ Scientology English word \ Definition: \ \ Scientology \ \ a new religion founded by L. Ron Hubbard in 1955 and characterized by a belief in the power of a person' s spirit to clear itself of past painful experiences through self knowledge and spiritual fulfillment \ \ Word origins:
02:02:45 <Sgeo> `Wolfram I love you
02:03:02 <ehird> `wolfram sexual intercourse
02:03:10 <HackEgo> sexual intercourse \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ sexual intercourse English phrase \ Definition: \ \ sexual intercourse \ \ the act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the man' s penis is inserted into the woman' s vagina and excited until orgasm and ejaculation occur \ \ Synonyms: \ \ sexual intercourse
02:03:21 <ehird> So THAT'S why you have to be 18!
02:03:23 <ais523> `wolfram infinity squared
02:03:24 <ehird> It's practically erotica.
02:03:28 <HackEgo> infinity squared \ \ Input: \ 2 \ \ Result: \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on September 5, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © Wolfram Alpha LLC—A Wolfram Research Company \ \ 1 \ \
02:03:52 <ehird> fun fact: HackEgo's Wolfram Alpha interface is the only thing in the universe more buggy than Wolfram Alpha itself
02:03:57 <ehird> fun fact: HackEgo's Wolfram Alpha interface is the only thing in the universe more buggy than Wolfram Alpha
02:03:59 <ehird> (reads better that way)
02:04:06 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=infinity%5E2
02:04:10 <ehird> Result = sideways 8
02:04:29 <Sgeo> Does HackEgo screen scrape, or does W|A provide an API?
02:04:38 <ehird> It screen scrapes the PDF.
02:04:38 <ais523> you have to pay for the API
02:05:05 <ehird> It'd be better to scrape the Mathematica notebook, but
02:05:48 <ehird> ais523: does Mathematica have a button to turn a notebook into code?
02:06:06 <ais523> ehird: the code's embedded in there somehow
02:06:23 <ehird> it contains base-64, presumably images
02:06:26 <ehird> and a shitload of boxes
02:08:19 <Sgeo> Who came up with the term "screen scraping"? It's not like a screen scraping tool is taking a screenshot and interpreting it
02:16:34 <Sgeo> HackEgo violates W|A's terms of use
02:16:57 <ehird> Meanwhile, nobody gives a shit
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02:17:01 <ehird> I violate it by being under 18.
02:18:06 <oerjan> i violate it just out of solidarity
02:29:05 <ehird> Advantage of ball mice: move more smoothly. Gah this mouse+pad.
02:29:24 <ais523> I thought ball mice got less smooth, when they were dirty
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02:39:12 <ehird> ais523: oh, no doubt
02:39:16 <ehird> but that beats scratchiness
02:39:29 <ehird> don't say felt pads; that's just like mud for a laser mouse
02:39:39 <ehird> actually i'm not sure why we obsoleted ball mice
02:39:43 <ehird> well, i guess cleaning
02:39:47 <ehird> when they were clean they worked perfectly
02:40:05 <ehird> I wonder if there are any bluetooth ball mice...
02:41:19 <ehird> Every time I look at a trackball I cringe
02:41:27 <ehird> It just reminds me of popping your thumb out of its socket...
02:43:40 <ehird> *optical mouse; I'm not using a laser mouse atm
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02:49:34 <oerjan> next: the aureal mouse
02:52:14 <ehird> Hmm, apparently the T42 had good battery life
02:52:30 <ehird> I seem to be travelling further and further back in the ThinkPad line, and am scared at the performance it will lead me to...
03:10:55 <ehird> "Why Psychologists Are Infinitely More Dangerous Than Conspiracy Theorists" from infowars.com.
03:11:03 <ehird> So much textbook crazy concentrated in one place.
03:11:19 <ehird> They want to destrooooooy your mind! Obamacare is eugenics NWO 9/11!
03:16:57 * Sgeo wishes Twitter was decentralized. I think I've said that before, and someone mentioned identi.ca
03:22:00 <ehird> identi.ca is not decentralised.
03:22:04 <ehird> also, nobody gives a shit.
03:22:15 <ehird> if twitter went down, nothing much would be lost; it is inherently transient
03:22:21 <ehird> and seriously, distributed this, distributed that
03:22:24 <ehird> it's mostly pointless.
03:24:14 <oerjan> distribution using pointless topology
03:37:38 <coppro> anyone know a way to scan for a given process being started?
03:37:51 <coppro> preferably without ptracing the invoker
03:38:05 <ehird> while sleep 1; do pgrep
03:38:09 <ais523> coppro: if you don't need it accurately, you could poll
03:38:28 <coppro> I need to figure out a command line being invoked
03:38:35 <ehird> grep can print at ree.
03:41:13 <coppro> augh, pgrep is annoying, but it should work
03:41:22 <coppro> I hate piping in to read
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04:40:08 * Sgeo realizes that he can malloc from Python, kind of
04:40:35 <ais523> Sgeo: why would you need to?
04:40:44 <Sgeo> ais523, for fun? Being silly?
04:40:58 <ais523> I'm not sure what you'd mean by that, though
04:42:46 <Sgeo> WTF? ??2@YAPAXI@Z
04:42:48 <Sgeo> WTF is ??2@YAPAXI@Z
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05:44:57 <ais523> wow, I just realised how terribly awful http://windows7sins.org/#1 is from a graphics design point of view
05:45:08 <ais523> and knowing the FSF, the content isn't much better either
05:46:49 <ais523> coppro: first I've seen the page
05:47:01 <ais523> I haven't actually read much of the content, I'm just guessing it's bad
05:47:07 <ais523> the graphic design is obvious, though
05:47:17 <coppro> I thought you meant you'd been there several times and just realized
05:47:22 <ais523> (the real reason open source isn't really taking off is that the FSF is so awful at marketing)
06:32:05 <coppro> w00t clean Ubuntu install is nice :)
06:32:22 <coppro> I should seriously consider doing this every 6 months, rather than upgrading
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08:53:11 <ais523> the shops will be opening so I can buy breakfast
08:53:32 <Deewiant> I managed to do http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20090906 with only two Google searches; should I be worried or something?
08:54:02 <AnMaster> (so that you remember uf had such a crossword)
08:54:27 <AnMaster> I thought you meant "googled to find the crossword"
08:54:39 <Deewiant> No, I meant I managed to fill it in :-P
08:54:58 <ais523> I like the way they avoided 4e references
08:55:16 <Deewiant> There's even an error in it; it says "twenty-sided solid" where it means "twelve-sided solid"
08:55:38 <AnMaster> anyway I couldn't manage it, since I never played D&D
08:55:41 <ais523> AnMaster: the crossword stops at third edition, which is probably a wise choice
08:55:57 <ais523> because fourth edition is a more or less completely different game, just with the same name for marketing purposes
08:56:02 <ais523> and a vaguely similar theme
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08:57:30 <AnMaster> <ais523> wow, I just realised how terribly awful http://windows7sins.org/#1 is from a graphics design point of view <-- um yeah that the frame scrolls sideways makes it look terrible for a start
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08:57:49 <AnMaster> that it then doesn't use said frame all the way...
08:58:07 <ais523> I don't even get why it does the start of a page in a frame, then leaves it for the rest of the page
08:58:52 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea how to connect to internet using your phone in ubuntu?
08:59:06 <AnMaster> I mean, I have 3G internet thingy on my phone
08:59:16 <ais523> I don't see why people would assume i do
08:59:23 <ais523> my family own a landline, I can use taht
08:59:27 <ais523> and I use payphones sometimes too
08:59:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean, I would have assumed at least an old GSM one with black and white screen or so
08:59:56 <AnMaster> (or black and grey rather, you know, like old calculators)
09:00:43 <AnMaster> (or possibly modern cheap calculators too, but I haven't used a non-graph-capable one for years, so no clue)
09:00:53 <ais523> modern cheap calculators still do that, yes
09:01:01 <ais523> and exams is a pretty good reason to use them
09:01:12 <ais523> often calculators that do much more than arithmetic are banned
09:01:57 <AnMaster> ais523, for this course graphing ones are allowed, but ones that can do CAS aren't
09:02:10 <AnMaster> like simplifying expressions and such
09:02:20 <AnMaster> mine is just below what is allowed.
09:03:41 <AnMaster> ais523, also I think mine doesn't follow the physical laws... I haven't replaced the batteries for years, and yes I used it a lot.
09:03:52 <AnMaster> four of those small AAAA or whatever they are called
09:06:04 <AnMaster> considering that I replaced batteries in one of those cheap calculators a lot more often...
09:07:02 <AnMaster> ais523, Shouldn't a graphing calculator use more power than a cheap one in general?
09:09:20 <fizzie> Is this "using your phone over bluetooth" or what?
09:09:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, um that was before, but last was "calculator"
09:10:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, but about phone for connecting to internet over bluetooth, if you know anything about it, please tell
09:11:30 <fizzie> I've done it "manually" in Debian once, but it was quite a kludge; using that USB 3G modem in Ubuntu was impressively easy, though. My guess for phone-and-bluetooth would be the Bluetooth Device Wizard, maybe.
09:11:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean, opera mini works fine on the phone, yet I can't see to share it with the laptop over bluethooth.
09:11:49 <fizzie> I should perhaps actually try this, since I have the laptop and Ubuntu open and all.
09:12:28 <ais523> AnMaster: would depend on how much calculation it was doing, I suppose
09:12:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm... same wizard as where you pair the devices up? Because I don't remember seeing any option for that there. I can mount the phone and browse it's file system and such
09:12:49 <ais523> actually, maybe it wouldn't; it's more likely to have a more expensive processor, which therefore probably has better power-save features
09:12:55 <AnMaster> ais523, well the graphing one has been used a LOT more.
09:13:23 <ais523> the graphing one may also have batteries which hold more charge
09:13:37 <ais523> (and ofc if it's solar-powered, the batteries may never run out)
09:14:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well 4 AAAA vs 2 AAA? Not sure
09:14:26 <ais523> most AAAs hardly hold any charge, they're mass-produced for consumers
09:14:36 <AnMaster> ais523, but AAAAs are even smaller?
09:14:37 <ais523> AAAA, I don't know; but likely they'd be higher-quality due to being harder to get hold of
09:14:49 <ais523> small doesn't necessarily equal low charge, it depends on what they're made of
09:15:00 <AnMaster> ais523, both are Duracell thingies. So not exactly "cheap no-name"
09:16:06 <fizzie> Curious, there's no immediately-obvious thing. What with Ubuntu's "just works" motto, I'd have assumed they have a user-friendly no-config-file-editing-involved solution for this.
09:16:19 <ais523> it just works for Palms
09:16:35 <ais523> but I imagine phone-tethering would be hard to develop, as most networks ban it
09:16:54 <AnMaster> anyway I got as far as using rfcomm to bind the DUN interface for the phone, but there I got stuck....
09:16:55 <fizzie> Nobody bans it around these parts. And what do you mean "expensive"?
09:17:02 <ais523> call charges while testing
09:17:16 <fizzie> Er, it's a fixed 10 eur/month for unlimited data.
09:17:31 <ais523> wow, your mobile operators are much less rip-offy than the ones over here
09:17:32 <AnMaster> I did manage to use minicom to seriously mess up the phone with AT commands (had to power cycle it... heh), but not to connect to internet
09:17:51 <ais523> here, most operators are pre-pay, but the rates go up astronomically high if you pay less than £15 a month
09:18:09 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I don't really know how to set up a traditional dial-up networking connection over Ubuntu either.
09:18:21 <AnMaster> iirc it is per data here, but max 9 kr per 24 hours
09:18:38 <ais523> how much is a kr in euros or pounds?
09:19:12 <HackEgo> 9 Swedish kronor = 0.878224893 Euros
09:19:32 <ais523> so pretty much the same as our £15 a month effective rate
09:19:56 <ais523> and that wouldn't even be unlimited
09:19:58 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah, I have one of those SIM cards that you load with money, rather than pay per month thingy
09:20:08 <AnMaster> not sure what the English term for it is
09:20:25 <ais523> although "pay as you go" is the usual advertising phrase
09:21:33 <HackEgo> 9 SEK in EUR \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert kr 9 Swedish kronor to euros \ Results: \ \ € 0.88 euros \ \ at current quoted rate \ \ Minimal currency form: \ 50c 20c 10c 5c 2c \ \ 0.72 c \ \ Local currency conversion: \ \ $ 1.25 US dollars \ \ at current quoted rate \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com)
09:21:43 <AnMaster> ais523, also I meant that above 9 SEK you aren't charged any more for the surfing
09:25:20 <fizzie> I don't think any Finnish operators offer that sort of deal, which is a bit of a shame, since I only use the mobile interwebs quite rarely, but a lot when it happens.
09:26:50 <fizzie> Hm, Network Manager's "add mobile broadband connection" wizard (which was used for the 3G modem stuff) says the connection can be made "using a 3G modem or a phone", but it looks a bit like no-one's bothered to add over-Bluetooth support to it yet.
09:27:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed my conclusion too
09:28:39 <fizzie> There's that "Blueman" GTK bluetooth manager app, which according to some sources should make it easy to have network manager see the phone.
09:29:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, and with the rfcomm stuff, it seems I'm supposed to know stuff about establishing the connection I have no clue about, I mean... it just works on the phone itself, why shouldn't it just be able to share that connection to the computer...
09:30:32 <AnMaster> like: <computer> please establish data 3G connection, you take care of the details <phone> ok, please stand by... (a few seconds pass) <phone> done, lets talk with some simple data stream protocol now <computer> great!
09:30:35 <fizzie> Oh, that won't ever work. I mean, unless your phone specifically has support for Internet-sharing thing. (Some PDA's at least support that sort of "connection setup on the phone, then Internet sharing over the PAN bluetooth protocol thing")
09:30:38 -!- M0ny has joined.
09:31:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah why does it have to act as a clueless modem when it *can* do this sort of thing itself already
09:31:24 <fizzie> Anyway, that network-manager's "mobile broadband" wizard just has you select your provider from the list, with no messing-around with settings.
09:31:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep, there doesn't even seem to be anywhere to select what device you want to use for it
09:32:13 <AnMaster> and yes I tried it, but quickly found it wouldn't work in any way whatosever
09:33:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, so what was the complex way under debian that you did?
09:33:31 <fizzie> Yes, network-manager expects to find the modem-to-use over HAL. That blueman app is supposed to provide the necessary glue there.
09:33:50 <fizzie> It's not in the official Ubuntu repositories, though. (But there is a APT source for it.)
09:34:05 <AnMaster> also I wouldn't trust random repos.
09:34:08 <ais523> fizzie: is it in the contrib repos?
09:34:22 <AnMaster> ais523, not in universe or multiverse at least.
09:35:07 <fizzie> Nnno. It's at https://launchpad.net/blueman, won't comment on trustworthiness.
09:36:11 <ais523> hmm... it seems that bit.ly have got themselves an even shorter URL
09:36:47 <ais523> it's basically a mirror
09:37:40 <fizzie> Libya, and Northern Mariana islands.
09:40:01 <fizzie> chi.mp seems to be giving out "free" (haven't read the details) .mp domains.
09:41:13 <ais523> oh, quite a few TLDs have been taken over commercially, now
09:41:22 <ais523> which IMO is making a mockery of the Internet
09:41:54 <fizzie> Well, you know how the saying goes. You can't make a mockery without breaking a few... mocks.
09:42:04 <AnMaster> nice seems gcc has an __attribute__ that allows you to control -O* and -f* on a per-function basis
09:44:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:44:50 <fizzie> It's funny how they speak constantly about you owning your own identity; then when you look at the small print term-definitions: "Owner the term used by Saipan DataCom to describe you as the subscriber to the CHI.MP Service and owner of 'Customer Content.'"
09:48:22 <fizzie> Most places (at least .fi) frown on single-character domains, but I guess not everyone.
09:51:23 <fizzie> There's a relatively recent network-manager blog-post which shows how easy the internet-over-bluetooth-over-phone is, assuming you have a bleeding-edge network-manager: http://blogs.gnome.org/dcbw/category/networkmanager/
09:51:31 <fizzie> So I guess someone's actually working on it.
09:52:41 <fizzie> And of course also: "DUN support needs a bit more work (its more complicated but also more capable); but tons of phones have PAN so lets get it out there."
09:53:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, how do I check if mine has PAN?
09:53:48 <fizzie> Presumably it should have some sort of menu for Internet sharing. (Personally I haven't ran into any such phone yet.)
09:55:21 <fizzie> The PAN approach is that more sensible "phone knows actual connection details like AP names" one.
09:56:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, sdptool to list services yields one that seems slightly relevant: Service Name: Network Access Point Service
09:58:03 <fizzie> That does actually sound relevant.
09:58:44 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1555921 is the full list btw
09:59:38 <AnMaster> (that excludes the channel info and so on for brevity)
10:00:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't seem to be the PAN one though
10:00:38 <AnMaster> because I found some website mentioning "Service Name: PAN Network Access Point" from that command.
10:00:52 <AnMaster> Service Description: Personal Ad-hoc Network Service which provides access to a network
10:01:28 <fizzie> Well, it does sound good. But that PAN support in the network manager was (at the time of the blog post) only in the git master. Probably will take some time for it to dribble down to Ubuntu.
10:02:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes and this is separate from PAN it seems
10:02:53 <AnMaster> plus there is no menu for this on the phone afair
10:05:05 <fizzie> My list of services is a lot shorter: http://pastebin.ca/1555928
10:05:10 <fizzie> Okay, so the phone is quite ancient too.
10:06:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, what does "PAN" stand for?
10:07:19 <AnMaster> if so that is the description indeed of that. So it is PAN but isn't called PAN
10:07:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, also how would one go about using PAN without network manager?
10:08:01 <fizzie> "personal area network" is the usual expansion. And no clue, really. There was some tutorial about it though.
10:10:17 <fizzie> What do you have in the sdptool Service Class ID List field for that? I think those should be quite unambiguous, unlike the service name field which is a bit free-form.
10:10:34 <AnMaster> "Network Access Point" (0x1116)
10:12:11 <fizzie> It should be the PAN-AP indeed.
10:12:43 * AnMaster is looking at http://bluez.sourceforge.net/contrib/HOWTO-PAN and wondering if bluez is new enough in ubuntu 9.04
10:12:52 <fizzie> Symbian sources: "return 0x1116; // PAN NAP
10:12:56 <AnMaster> Programmet "pand" är för närvarande inte installerat. Du kan installera det genom att ange:
10:13:46 <fizzie> Yes, sounds obsoletey. (Though really, if you got a working rfcomm serial line and can speak to the phone, you should be able to set up a traditional dial-up networking connection over it; it's just some AT commands and PPP.)
10:14:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't manage to get the correct AT commands. Somehow
10:14:57 <AnMaster> okay it seems I have a pan0 interface now, though ifconfig says it is down
10:15:12 * AnMaster wonders what now, since the guide he looked at is so outdated it seems to refer to 2.4 kernels
10:15:56 <fizzie> If it's somehow "connected" to the network the phone is on already, you should be able to just bring it up and run dhclient or some-such on it.
10:16:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, it isn't connected as such
10:16:24 <AnMaster> well with the pan0 interface at least
10:16:33 <fizzie> Ah, well, I don't know how that stuff works. :p
10:16:59 <fizzie> I do have an OS X modem script for the GPRS dial-up networking for "Nokia phones" in general; it's got one set of AT commands that could work.
10:18:37 <fizzie> I'll try to extract the relevant stuff; there's a lot of modem-script-programmatic nonsense.
10:19:31 <fizzie> All kind of test-if-it's-a-Nokia-phone and control flow strangeness.
10:20:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, got a link to that PAN in network manager thing? it might help to look at the relevant commits
10:20:45 <AnMaster> and google seems unable to find it here
10:21:39 <fizzie> Anyway, "AT&FE0V1&D2&S0&C1S0=0+IFC=3,1" should be the magical init string for the modem, followed by >> AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","[access point name here]" << for more initialization, and finally "ATD*99***1#" to dial.
10:22:03 <fizzie> (Had to use a different quotation notation for that middle string, since it has embedded quotes.)
10:22:17 <AnMaster> what would access point name be?
10:22:29 <fizzie> That one should be somewhere in the phone menus.
10:22:42 <fizzie> For me it's "saunalahti.internet".
10:22:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, this phone has swedish menus, it is a bit hard to guess what might be intended
10:23:41 <AnMaster> which seems to be "Telia GPRS" (though it is 3G actually -_-)
10:23:57 <fizzie> Hmm. Well, that might either be the real name or the human-readable name.
10:24:00 <AnMaster> actually iirc it is "3G if available, otherwise GPRS"
10:24:11 <fizzie> Is your provider listed in the network-manager mobile-broadband thing?
10:24:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes, but I didn't manage to actually make that thing use my phone
10:24:36 <fizzie> If so, you can add a dummy "connection" there, then do "Edit" to it and look at the "APN" field it set up.
10:25:40 <fizzie> That sounds like a reasonable format. Providers seem to like to make it resemble a DNS name, even though it's not really related.
10:26:02 <fizzie> The "saunalahti.internet" is just [ISP name].[fictional .internet TLD].
10:26:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, seriously PAN sounds a lot saner
10:26:26 <fizzie> And these AT commands might not work; they do work with the N-Gage, though.
10:26:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, so where did you read that about PAN in network-manager, because if I can read the patch I can possibly use it with command line tools myself or such
10:27:44 <fizzie> http://blogs.gnome.org/dcbw/category/networkmanager/ was the blog-post about it.
10:28:36 <fizzie> It has a date, which might be useful maybe.
10:29:42 <fizzie> http://git.gnome.org/cgit/network-manager-applet/commit/?id=3bec17daa718354e22ca9b5116a91a4cf594eeee possibly.
10:30:47 <AnMaster> um that seems less useful than I had hoped
10:30:51 <fizzie> And, well, the files the code refers to; that actual patch looks pretty short and network-manager-infrastructury.
10:32:49 <AnMaster> "You’ll need gnome-bluetooth >= 2.27.7.1, bluez >= 4.42" <-- right, both are way outdated here
10:33:15 <fizzie> Still, I wouldn't want to have to grok the whole network-manager-applet mess just for this.
10:34:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok, about dialup thingy, what sort of place does one enter those commands in?
10:34:42 <fizzie> That sort of depends on whether you want to use Ubuntu's network-settings-thingies or some separate PPP dialer (like wvdial).
10:35:21 <fizzie> If you have a working rfcomm channel (with the device file present) it is possible that the device shows up in Ubuntu/Gnome's System > Administration > Network.
10:36:14 <AnMaster> but yes I have the rfcomm0 device file
10:36:15 <fizzie> Is there a point-to-point connection, though?
10:36:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm? where whould that be? can't see one at least
10:37:06 <fizzie> I have one in that "Network Settings" connections tab.
10:37:49 <fizzie> (Don't know where it comes from, really.)
10:38:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, do you mean in the "network tool" thingy with ping, netstat and so on? or in the network manager thing?
10:38:35 <fizzie> Neither. There are three things; the network manager applet (from tray), the "network tool" thing, and a "Network Settings" dialog.
10:38:57 <fizzie> Typically pretty much everything in "Network Settings" is set to "roaming mode", in which case the network manager applet takes care of them.
10:39:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't find the final one
10:39:47 <fizzie> Well, the command name is "network-admin"; maybe they've cleaned it away from the menus because it was confusing. :p
10:40:06 <AnMaster> tells me to do: sudo apt-get install gnome-network-admin
10:40:44 <fizzie> Ah. Well, then... if you want to try that, you can. It's either that, some other graphical dialer thing, or just /etc/network/interfaces magic, but I don't quite know how that last one works.
10:41:11 <AnMaster> but I can't see if it is for the built in modem in computer thing or not
10:41:19 <AnMaster> also it reports pan0 as a wired network XD
10:41:50 <fizzie> Yes, same here too. (I have a useless pan0 too.)
10:42:06 <AnMaster> anyway I suspect it may be for the built in modem
10:42:28 <fizzie> Just Properties > Enable it, then see the Modem tab for "modem port".
10:42:33 <fizzie> Hopefully you'll have your rfcomm device there.
10:42:49 <AnMaster> modem port is empty, lets see...
10:43:05 <AnMaster> nop, lists /dev/modem and some ttyS[0-3]
10:43:11 <AnMaster> and this doesn't even have a serial port
10:43:41 <fizzie> Hrm. Well, you need a serial-port-like connection to the phone, and a /dev node which looks like one -- something you can write AT commands to with minicom.
10:43:44 <AnMaster> oh indeed /dev/modem doesn't exist even
10:44:00 <fizzie> Maybe it's a static list of suggestions, then -- same list here.
10:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I could write AT commands with minicom to the rfcomm device, but that made the phone lock up
10:44:16 <AnMaster> possibly I entered the wrong ones
10:44:25 <fizzie> Well, if you want to try it, you can put that rfcomm device just manually there in modem port.
10:44:47 <fizzie> Also it's possible that you can do "Connection type" > "GPRS/UMTS" in the "General" tab and just enter the "Access point name" to the field which should appear.
10:44:58 <fizzie> Possibly it might then do a reasonable generic initialization/dialing thing.
10:45:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't know what to enter for user/password there...
10:45:30 <fizzie> Just leave them empty, it works for me. :p
10:45:37 <fizzie> (Well, in OS X, at least.)
10:45:54 <fizzie> Then you probably want the "Options" tab default-route and use-ISP's-DNS settings too.
10:46:18 <fizzie> Oh, and I actually don't know how to make it *dial* the configured connection, heh.
10:46:43 <fizzie> Though I think that network-settings should configure it so that you can "ifup ppp0" manually. Maybe.
10:48:05 <fizzie> (Applying settings will probably reload the network-manager-applet which will temporarily drop your wlan, it seems.)
10:48:23 <AnMaster> no luck, it just made my computer keep cycling connection to ethernet and phone crash again
10:49:10 <fizzie> Did your phone reply to plain "AT" with "OK" in minicom?
10:50:58 <fizzie> Hrm, that's pretty strange.
10:51:30 <fizzie> Maybe you could try with those nokia-specific initialization/dial commands. I'll try to see if I can figure out where you can put that stuff in the network-settings place.
10:51:45 <fizzie> No, I mean, it should do that and then work properly. :p
10:52:25 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Anyway, "AT&FE0V1&D2&S0&C1S0=0+IFC=3,1" should be the magical init string for the modem, followed by >> AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","[access point name here]" << for more initialization, and finally "ATD*99***1#" to dial.
10:52:36 <AnMaster> if I try that first one it seems minicom stops accepting any more input
10:52:57 <AnMaster> but then any key press does nothing, Ctrl-A Z opens the minicom menu thing still though
10:53:23 <AnMaster> oh wait, it just stopped echoing
10:53:37 <fizzie> That's the E0 possibly.
10:53:53 <fizzie> Well, you can indeed try those commands in minicom.
10:54:11 <fizzie> It should spew out some binary stuff for PPP connection initialization after the ATD... command, if it works.
10:54:13 <AnMaster> well phone locked up at "ATD*99***1#"
10:54:23 <fizzie> Rrright. That's not good.
10:54:26 <AnMaster> but it did spew some binary stuff
10:55:05 <fizzie> I don't quite know what's making it lock up all the time.
10:55:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, also on phone there is an icon for "data connection established", it is an E when connecting, and an E with a box around once the connection is established
10:55:16 <AnMaster> and it got to the E but never to the box
10:55:53 <AnMaster> I think around where I am atm there is only GPRS, no 3G, and the phone falls back on GPRS if it can't find 3G
10:56:39 <AnMaster> because that E thing is only for GPRS, while there is some kind of "3" symbol when there is full 3G around
10:56:58 <fizzie> It's "G" for the N-gage (always, since it's GPRS only).
10:57:04 <fizzie> Actually it could be E for EDGE?
10:57:35 <fizzie> EDGE's a slight speed upgrade to GPRS.
10:57:42 <fizzie> Pretty much the same technology, I guess.
10:57:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is a "nokia 3210 classic" btw
10:57:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well possibly, I wouldn't know
10:58:26 <fizzie> I guess I could try to see what the N-gage says if I minicom those strings into it, to see if it works. I'll have to do the rfcomm setup first, though.
10:58:58 <AnMaster> like: rfcomm bind 0 <MAC-of-phone> <channel number>
10:59:02 <AnMaster> where channel number is the DUN channel
10:59:24 <AnMaster> and 0 is what will be at the end of the device node
10:59:34 <AnMaster> rfcomm unbind 0 <mac of phone>
10:59:49 <AnMaster> where MAC is the bluetooth one
11:00:05 <AnMaster> if phone is set to visible you can use hcitool scan to find it
11:00:29 <fizzie> Well, it did create rfcomm0 there. Will have to apt-get minicom first, though. :p
11:03:50 <fizzie> Eh, it picked up /dev/tty8 as the "serial port" by default, or something.
11:04:08 <AnMaster> and select to edit the relevant line
11:05:34 <fizzie> Hm, I pointed it at rfcomm0 and started; the phone did the "bluetooth active and talking" icon for a second, then it went away and said "minicom: cannot open /dev/rfcomm0: No such file or directory". Maybe I typoed the address or something.
11:05:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, possibly you selected wrong channel?
11:06:41 <AnMaster> sdptool search --baddr <MAC of phone> DUN
11:06:52 <AnMaster> you can drop the baddr stuff if you make the phone visible
11:08:33 <fizzie> That looks like it should be correct:
11:08:38 <fizzie> http://pastebin.ca/1555961
11:11:45 <AnMaster> it says it is closed here too until I try to use it
11:11:58 <fizzie> "rfcomm connect 0 00:60:57:B8:DF:55 1" gives the "accept connection request?" dialog on the phone and connects properly, though.
11:12:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I have my phone set to auto accept connections from my laptop (but of course not from anywhere else)
11:12:31 <fizzie> Then I can give AT commands to the phone with minicom; but I have to keep that "rfcomm connect" running.
11:12:59 <AnMaster> didn't need to do that at all hm
11:13:12 <fizzie> Well, I'll check the commands. Though minicom did send some sort of automatic init string -- "AT S7=45 S0=0 L1 V1 X4 &c1 E1 Q0" -- which hopefully won't break anything.
11:13:26 <AnMaster> rfcomm0: 00:21:AA:FC:F2:F4 channel 1 connected [tty-attached]
11:13:51 <AnMaster> not sure what that command does
11:16:18 <fizzie> Hmmn. Well, I got some binary stuff (which looked reasonably familiar, I think it's the PPP setup) but just the "G", not the "boxed G". Which sort-of makes sense; the PPP server is the phone, after all, and presumably it's going to wait until the PPP connection is formed before actually doing the GPRS call.
11:16:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, did the phone lock up though?
11:17:07 <fizzie> Nope. I don't know what's up with that.
11:17:48 <fizzie> Though the "G" symbol seems to be stuck there now. (Normally it's displaying just an "antenna" icon when nothing's connected.)
11:18:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, try power cycling the phone
11:19:23 <fizzie> Well, it went away after I browsed (with the phone browser) to google.com and then closed the browser. Silly stuff, though.
11:19:54 <fizzie> I think I'll try that full dial-up networking connection too, just in case.
11:27:06 <fizzie> Yes, not just minicom commands.
11:27:19 <fizzie> And, well, it didn't seem to want to work. But it didn't seem to want to lock up either.
11:27:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for wvdial, it refuses to work without user/pass it seems
11:27:48 <fizzie> Heh, that's a bit silly. Though you can try entering "x" and "x" for both, it really shouldn't matter.
11:29:26 <AnMaster> but it didn't crash phone, and it connected (boxed E)
11:29:42 <fizzie> It should get IP and DNS from the PPP-specific protocol, I've forgotten the name.
11:30:12 <fizzie> No, just some "part of PPP connection setup" thing.
11:30:37 <fizzie> pppd is probably writing rather verbose logs (it has a habit) somewhere in /var/log.
11:31:40 <AnMaster> well good to know it works, not that I will be using it a lot, just good to know I can if needed
11:31:48 <fizzie> The lockups are strange. Did you do any setup with wvdial, or was it just "defaults for everything except /dev/rfcomm0 as the modem port"?
11:32:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, I used the relevant setup strings
11:32:23 <AnMaster> Init1 = AT&FE0V1&D2&S0&C1S0=0+IFC=3,1
11:32:23 <AnMaster> Init2 = AT+CGDCONT=1,"IP","online.telia.se"
11:32:54 <fizzie> Ah, those. Hmm. Well, maybe I'll try to set that vwdial up too later, just in case I've forgotten the 3G stick home or something.
11:33:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, well 3G stick would be cheaper I bet
11:33:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for lockup I think the phone locked up between wvdial and ppp was done
11:34:00 <AnMaster> otherwise wvdial was waiting for a non-existing login prompt
11:34:15 <fizzie> It's the same 10 eur/month for both the 3G stick as well as any data over the phone; they're part of the same contract.
11:35:06 <fizzie> Even the second SIM card (for the 3G stick) was free, though I had to sign up my soul to them for the next 24 months for that.
11:35:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't find any ppp log files, possibly it was the stuff that went to the terminal I ran wvdial in
11:36:13 <fizzie> Yes, that sounds low-level enough.
11:36:50 <fizzie> That MultiSIM thing is really strange, though; if I were to stick that second SIM into a phone, any incoming calls would cause both phones to ring.
11:37:31 <fizzie> Answering one makes the others stop ringing. I wonder if there's some sort of race condition there.
11:37:52 <AnMaster> what second sim? one for the 3G stick?
11:38:32 <fizzie> Though you can use it in another phone if you want, it's this generic "do you have multiple phones? buy a 'secondary' SIM card" deal.
11:39:35 <fizzie> The second SIM card has a some sort of "technical" phone number, but logically they work under the "primary" SIM card number. (I.e. calls to that number go to both, when dialing out the receiver sees the primary number always, they share the same voicemail box, and so on.)
11:39:52 <fizzie> Oh, and if one of the phones is busy, incoming calls still ring in the other phones.
11:40:09 <fizzie> SMS messages only go to the phone with the primary SIM card.
11:40:16 <fizzie> I don't really know what sort of use case this is for.
11:41:41 <fizzie> From the ad-blurb (translated): "Do you have two mobile phones? For example a work phone and a party phone? Would you like to take a small and light phone with you when you go out to exercise, rather than your new multimedia phone? Or does your car perhaps have a fixed phone installation?"
11:43:04 <fizzie> They all sound a bit far-fetched to me; the only one that makes sense is this "want to get online from both the phone and the computer without messing around with internet-over-phone stuff" case.
11:45:39 <AnMaster> wait hm, the max cost is 9 kr / dygn. And it says that the cost per MB is 20 kr. So that means you hit the max cost / dygn quite fast
11:45:44 <fizzie> "Note! The MultiSIM service is personal, and you may not distribute the secondary SIM cards to a third person." Otherwise I think quite a lot of people would take the "5 mobile internet connections at a price of 1" deal.
11:45:52 <AnMaster> (dygn = Swedish word for 24 hour period)
11:46:31 <fizzie> That's just "day" (overloaded a bit) in English.
11:46:57 <HackEgo> May 9, 2009 ... 2 EUR, = 3.11 CAD, 100 EUR, = 155.59 CAD. 5 EUR, = 7.78 CAD, 200 EUR, = 311.18 CAD. 10 EUR, = 15.56 CAD, 500 EUR, = 777.95 CAD. 20 EUR ...
11:46:58 <AnMaster> well day in English could be a 12 hour period as well
11:47:15 <HackEgo> 20 Swedish kronor = 1.95161087 Euros
11:47:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the SEC -> EUR thingy
11:47:32 <AnMaster> it doesn't make a lot of sense
11:47:52 <fizzie> I guess it just picked some popular currencies when it didn't recognize SEC.
11:48:18 <fizzie> Anyway, it's 1.5 EUR/MB here without a specific data plan thing.
11:49:15 <fizzie> Hmm, I guess that `calc is from Google?
11:49:40 <fizzie> It seems to miss the "Did you mean: 20 SEK in EUR" correction, and pick up the summary for a "Convert Euros to Canadian Dollars" page.
11:50:10 <fizzie> Maybe it just looks for the first "X = Y" line on the page.
11:53:14 <AnMaster> prices really are a lot more reasonable nowdays than just half a year ago
11:54:53 <fizzie> The 10 eur/month (well, 9.80/month to be exact) was pretty much the upper limit for me, since the Nebula ADSL we have at home is so awfully expensive.
11:55:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw the built in modem thingy doesn't seem to show up in linux at all. No great loss though
11:56:25 <fizzie> If it's one of those winmodems, it's not much of a surprise. I think the iBook modem showed up as a serial port in Linux, though not sure about that.
11:56:50 <fizzie> (And "upper limit" in the "is willing to pay" sense, maybe not quite in the "can afford" sense.)
11:57:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, how much do you use it btw?
11:59:10 <AnMaster> 00:03.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset MEI Controller (rev 07)
12:00:46 <fizzie> It seems to be related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Active_Management_Technology maybe. No clue.
12:01:50 <fizzie> And I probably don't use it enough to justify paying every month. I just got it as a preparation for an Android phone some day; those are a bit internet-dependent.
12:02:01 <fizzie> Google Maps at 1.5 eur/MB doesn't sound like a win.
12:02:54 <fizzie> Well, except with that sort of "maximum price per day" thing, but we don't have that.
12:03:23 <fizzie> At least I don't think any Finnish operator does it; many do "you pay only this much for telephone calls per day", but they've cleverly not included data in that.
12:05:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is no such thing for the calls, only for the data
12:06:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, so maybe Sonera (sp?) has it?
12:06:33 <fizzie> I doubt that; Sonera is (or at least has traditionally been) one of the most expensive options here.
12:06:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, same for Telia here. Reliable, good coverage, but expensive.
12:07:13 <AnMaster> but that is going down now, still I guess the other ones are less expensive
12:08:16 <fizzie> Sonera has recently removed all "named" deals; nowadays they just have that pre-paid thing, and then for "pay monthly" there's this "build your own GSM connection" thing, where you pick all kinds of options and it computes the final price.
12:09:15 <fizzie> Actually yes, they indeed do have one max-price-per-day data thing.
12:09:56 <fizzie> "Data Tunti" (where fi:tunti == en:hour) -- you pay 0.90 EUR/hour for data, with a maximum of 6.90 EUR for a 24 hour period.
12:10:33 <fizzie> Though the 6.90 EUR/day is a lot more than your 20 SEK -> ~1.95 EUR.
12:10:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, yep. 20 SEK was per MB. But 9 SEK max per 24 hour period
12:10:56 <fizzie> Well, then it's really a lot more than that.
12:11:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, though, calls are pretty expensive. More so than when I first got this it seems.
12:12:02 <fizzie> Hey, they have (and this must be a new thing, wasn't there less than a year ago) also a "Data Päivä" (fi:päivä == en:day), where you pay 2.90 EUR at the start of each 24-hour data-use period.
12:12:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://www.telia.se/files/iSurfMiniMidiMaxi_TSP1543_priser_07aug.pdf
12:12:37 <AnMaster> http://www.telia.se/files/TeliaRefill_1139_3april.pdf
12:13:29 <fizzie> Since Sonera only does this custom-option-pickery, I don't have a good price sheet to point at. The web-based customizer looks a bit Finnish-only.
12:13:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems that data is the only cheap thing on it
12:13:52 <AnMaster> which is quite the reverse of when I first got it
12:14:01 <AnMaster> weird they didn't tell their customers about that
12:14:41 <HackEgo> 0.69 Swedish kronor = 0.0673305752 Euros
12:14:43 <AnMaster> well... data isn't exactly cheap either. What was it you paid
12:15:09 <HackEgo> 9.80 Euros = 100.429856 Swedish kronor
12:15:21 <AnMaster> much cheaper than mine would be if I used it every day
12:15:32 <AnMaster> not that I'm likely to use it very often for that
12:15:35 <fizzie> Yes, well, that's obviously optimized for sporadic use.
12:15:59 <fizzie> Like Sonera's 2.90 EUR/24 hours. They have an about-10 EUR/month option too.
12:16:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and the 0.69 thing is "within a month after you refilled the account"
12:16:11 <AnMaster> otherwise it is the cost inside the parentheses
12:16:32 <HackEgo> 1.99 Swedish kronor = 0.194185282 Euros
12:16:39 <fizzie> Oh, and this 9.80 EUR is with a 384 kbps speed limit, though; the faster options cost more.
12:18:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, mine is for 1 mbps limit iirc
12:19:06 <fizzie> I don't quite remember how much I pay for calls, since they no longer sell this limit.
12:19:49 <fizzie> The calls are reasonably expensive (something like 0.069 eur/minute, which is pretty close to that 0.69 SEK actually) but there's no monthly charge at all. (Except for this data add-on service.)
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12:20:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and they seem to do it for whole minutes. As in... anything less than one minute still cost one minute
12:20:19 <AnMaster> and between 1 and 2 minutes cost 2 minutes
12:20:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, no monthly charge at all here either
12:21:04 <fizzie> Pre-paid ones tend not to have one.
12:21:13 <fizzie> Heh, it seems that in August (when I got this mobile Internet) I used it for 96 separate connections, totaling about 27 hours, and moved 66488 kilobytes of data.
12:21:41 <fizzie> With the 1.5 EUR/MB cost, that's 97.39 EUR.
12:22:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't you say it was fixed to 10 EUR?
12:22:16 <fizzie> Yes, well, s/'s/ would be/
12:23:32 <AnMaster> my phone claims I so far received 5024540 bytes
12:23:52 <fizzie> I don't think the N-Gage keeps a running count, unfortunately.
12:24:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, total connected time: two hours, 58 minutes and 32 seconds
12:24:41 <AnMaster> it is slightly less than a year old
12:26:12 <fizzie> Nope, can't seem to find such statistics in this phone. Aw.
12:26:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is in the same menu as called numbers, missed calls and such
12:26:44 <fizzie> There's a "GPRS data counter" in the "missed calls" menu, indeed.
12:27:01 <fizzie> "All sent data: 6.17 MB", "All receiv. data: 19.31 MB".
12:27:19 <fizzie> I've had this for at least five years now.
12:27:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, was that the same plan as your 3G usb stick thing or?
12:28:02 <fizzie> Well, same connection, but the phone can't count that of course.
12:28:41 <fizzie> I think data was something like 10 EUR/MB when I bought the phone, didn't really use it back then.
12:30:52 <fizzie> All calls: 41 hours, 52 minutes, 23 seconds.
12:31:02 <fizzie> The firmware upgrade probably reset these counters anyway.
12:32:03 <AnMaster> btw I wonder if you can get internet over bluetooth the other way around
12:32:10 <AnMaster> I mean, phone connecting to laptop
12:32:24 <AnMaster> would be useful for expensive firmware upgrades
12:32:30 <fizzie> Though to a desktop, not laptop.
12:32:33 <AnMaster> expensive as in: will easily hit the 9 kr
12:32:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, my desktop lacks bluetooth
12:33:03 <fizzie> So does mine, but I had borrowed an USB stick for it.
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12:34:05 <fizzie> Gah, I don't remember the details. There was a *really* strange kludge involving an imaginary ".mrouter" TLD; Nokia phones use DNS queries to that to see if they're running under the PC Suite thing.
12:35:04 <AnMaster> well probably not worth the trouble then
12:35:09 <fizzie> http://www.bwestermann.privat.t-online.de/3650linux_en.html seems to be about it; probably very obsoleted, and bad English.
12:36:26 <fizzie> It might also not work on newer phones: http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35332
12:36:54 <fizzie> And of course it could be completely different for different models.
12:41:49 <fizzie> For Symbian phones I think there was some app. The PPP connection between the computer and the phone of course doesn't care which way the bits flow, but some sort of kludge is needed to (a) make the phone not close the connection when you're not making it connect to the Internet over GPRS/etc., and (b) to set up a default route with the computer as a gateway.
12:42:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't think this is a symbian one
12:42:38 <fizzie> If it doesn't constantly reboot, it probably isn't. :p
12:42:45 <fizzie> (Okay, so that's more of a N-Gage problem.)
12:43:55 <fizzie> I can't seem to find a "3210 classic" from Nokia's device specs. There is a 3120 classic, though.
12:44:09 <fizzie> (S40 5th edition FP1.)
12:46:17 <fizzie> Incidentally, the PAN-AP thing is not listed in the "Bluetooth Profiles" list (A2DP, AVRCP, DUN, FTP, GAP, GAVDP, GOEP, HFP, HSP, OPP, SAP, SDAP, SPP; I don't know what most of those mean) for 3120 classic, so if that's your phone, it probably doesn't support the PAN approach for interweb sharing at least officially.
12:48:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, err 3120 classic was what I meant
12:49:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, and what does that mean exactly?
12:49:53 <fizzie> It's a Nokia term; most of their phones are S40 (non-Symbian, custom proprietary OS) or S60 (Symbian).
12:50:02 <fizzie> "Series 40" and "Series 60" officially.
12:50:30 <fizzie> And the S40 OS is called "Nokia OS" in the specs; I think it had some silly internal codename too.
12:50:49 <fizzie> http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/3120_classic
12:53:26 <fizzie> The only Symbian phones in the 3xxx series seem to be 3230, 3250, 3600, 3620, 3650 and 3660, all pretty old (2003-2005).
12:54:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you say it is more advanced than the S60 one?
12:54:53 <AnMaster> also is symbian not propietary?
12:55:41 <fizzie> I guess so, maybe "internal" or something like that would be a better word. You can buy a Symbian license; you can't buy a "Nokia OS" license.
12:56:36 <fizzie> And I guess the first question depends on the precise definition of "advanced". This N-gage might be a bit more "programmable" (you can write native-code apps for it; it's just J2ME on S40 phones) but certainly yours has a lot of features that this doesn't. (Like 3G.)
12:57:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, and 30 MB flash built in or so
12:57:13 <AnMaster> no I don't have a micro sd card for it
12:57:41 <fizzie> Besides, fat load of good the programmability does me: *no-one* supports the "1st Edition" S60 devices any more, only from 3rd edition upwards.
12:58:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, how would one write J2ME apps without ending up killing one self though?
12:58:57 <fizzie> Not even open-source folks bother to support it any longer. I have to use an outdated copy of PuTTY because the couple of newest versions no longer support it.
12:59:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, can't you update the OS on it?
12:59:15 <fizzie> I don't know, I don't think J2ME is that bad. I mean, compared to Symbian development it's pure pleasure.
12:59:28 <AnMaster> oh symbian development is worse?
12:59:40 <fizzie> Symbian development is legendary in painfulness.
13:00:29 <fizzie> And you can't even flash the firmware on the N-gage without specialized hardware, if you could magically get a N-gage firmware with a newer Symbian version, which you can't.
13:00:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, is there any putty for my phone though? would be quite nice to have, though rather useless
13:00:53 <fizzie> There's no PuTTY port, but there's a J2ME SSH client, sure.
13:01:03 <fizzie> http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/
13:01:10 <fizzie> Should work just fine in your phone.
13:02:05 <fizzie> I can't seem to find the source link right now though.
13:02:50 <fizzie> Oh, it's at the end of the download page, I'm just selectively blind.
13:03:31 <fizzie> http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/downloadversion.php?version=1.7.3 and at the end, for example.
13:03:54 <fizzie> For the devel version. Of course reading the source doesn't really help unless you build it yourself, so you'd need the J2ME SDK stuff.
13:04:23 <AnMaster> so should one select devel or stable hm
13:04:43 <AnMaster> oh and, jar or jad file? for cost reasons I hope I can transfer this over bluetooth
13:04:50 <AnMaster> using the file protocol thingy (which works)
13:05:37 <fizzie> At least on my phone you can just file-transfer a .jar and it'll launch the app-installer.
13:06:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that file transfer ftp like or file transfer "mount phone as a directory" like?
13:06:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, also is there no ssh2 only build ?
13:06:58 <fizzie> Er, I've just used the "send file to device" OS X bluetooth thing; it speaks OBEX internally.
13:07:36 <fizzie> The file arrives as a "message" then. If your phone has a file browser app, though, you can probably just transfer it however you like and "launch" it.
13:07:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, aren't jar just zip files?
13:08:23 <AnMaster> because when I try to open it I get: "Invalid crc on data descriptor 0/134695760 on midpssh-full.jar"
13:08:32 <fizzie> Zip files with some specially handled file names (in the MANIFEST directory), yes.
13:08:47 <fizzie> Which version was this?
13:09:42 <fizzie> wget http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/v1.6.0/midpssh-full.jar + "unzip -l midpssh-full.jar" looks fine to me.
13:10:18 <AnMaster> well not with unzip, I was trying advzip to compress it better, which tends to work for every other jar file I tried it on
13:11:28 <fizzie> Technically in a .jar file the META-INF directory needs to be first, but I guess advzip wouldn't go change the file order anyway.
13:11:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm, well java -jar foo.jar after always worked
13:11:58 <AnMaster> 495 Defl:N 500 867670159% 02-27-07 20:32 171efe4a small.png <-- that looks a bit wrong
13:12:07 <AnMaster> there are a few more like that
13:12:07 <fizzie> Sure, I don't think apps really care about it.
13:12:50 <fizzie> 495 Defl:N 500 -1% 2007-02-27 20:32 171efe4a small.png
13:12:54 <fizzie> That's what my "unzip" says.
13:13:45 <fizzie> The .png files indeed have a bit larger compressed size. Optimally they wouldn't be deflate-compressed at all.
13:14:08 <AnMaster> indeed, and the pngs would first be optimially compressed with optipng and advpng
13:14:29 <AnMaster> though some apps tend to throw up on 4 bit gray scale pngs and such
13:14:34 <AnMaster> so might not be a good idea always ;)
13:14:54 <AnMaster> (I love how complex png actually is)
13:15:04 <fizzie> With 30 MB of flash (and something like a megabyte-or-two Java heap) I don't think you should care *that* much about a 121164-byte .jar.
13:15:27 <fizzie> You haven't put a gigabyte-or-a-couple microSD card in the phone?
13:16:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, I remember having problems running non-signed jars in my phone hm
13:22:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, can it do public key auth?
13:26:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, I seem unable to specify a non-standard port too
13:26:37 <fizzie> I haven't really used it, just heard of it.
13:27:33 <fizzie> The S60 port of PuTTY does public-key auth, fortunately. I'm not sure about MidpSSH; J2ME apps can't really access the phone filesystem freely, IIRC, so it'd have to have some sort of own key-store thing.
13:28:23 <fizzie> Not listed on the "Features" page.
13:28:53 <fizzie> "Use Public Key - for SSH 2 connections you can opt to use public key / private key authentication rather than a password."
13:28:58 <fizzie> Yes, it should support that.
13:29:08 <fizzie> http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/wiki/public-key
13:29:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, the non-standard port bit doesn't seem to work though
13:30:10 <fizzie> "now available", doesn't say which version it refers to. And doesn't support passphrases in the public key yet. :p
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13:30:52 <fizzie> And you should be able to use just "host:1234" as the hostname to connect to port 1234.
13:31:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, just timed out, and yes I know it works because I done it from uni with my laptop
13:31:36 <fizzie> Well, based on http://www.xk72.com/midpssh/wiki/using-sessions it's supported. Feel free to check sources whether that feature too is only in the devel version. :p
13:31:50 <fizzie> Must prepare some food. →
13:32:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well ssh keys was in stable it seemed
13:35:18 * oerjan wonders if that is genuine Quenya
13:35:50 <oerjan> and if it has anything to do with balrogs
13:37:32 <oerjan> hm Valarauko does mean that
13:38:55 <oerjan> ah but the phrase itself only gives iwc
13:39:29 <oerjan> hm just the word hirdinya in fact
13:40:08 <AnMaster> ah the dev version works better
13:41:43 <oerjan> in fact all the words i tested _expect_ valarauko only exists on that page, so i take it DMM just made something to sound right
13:44:48 <oerjan> oh and iirc quenya transliteration doesn't use ë except at the end of words
13:45:18 <oerjan> (tolkien used it only so english-speakers wouldn't make it silent iirc)
14:02:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, didn't the annotation say it was Tengwar or whatever
14:03:14 <oerjan> tengwar is the script, which he _didn't_ use
14:03:28 <oerjan> it definitely resembles quenya
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14:04:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, you realise saying that makes you look incredibly nerdy?
14:04:12 -!- M0ny has joined.
14:04:21 <AnMaster> (though not as much as if you was able to speak it fluently)
14:04:36 <oerjan> i even used to subscribe to the conlang list
14:05:20 <oerjan> fortunately i'm much too lazy to actually _learn_ it ;)
14:15:15 <oerjan> makes me slightly less nerdy? :D
14:37:20 <oerjan> incidentally there's a thread on the iwc forum where they are discussing who is geekiest. sample: "I mentioned to a friend at an SCA event the other day that I'd translated lines from Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog into the Black Speech for use by my half-orc D&D character."
14:39:34 <oerjan> (and that was just the beginning of his post)
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14:57:34 <fizzieg> AnMaster: Incidentally, one of the reasons why this net-over-phone might not have worked was that I was trying to use the APN "saunalahti.internet" when the correct would have been "internet.saunalahti".
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14:59:55 <oerjan> those pesky finns have got internet in their saunas!
15:01:08 <fizzie> fi:lahti is also en:bay, in the geographical sense. So, "the Sauna Bay".
15:01:55 <fizzie> It is a very common place-name, actually, what with all the saunas around and all. I think there are at least four of them, probably many more.
15:04:07 <AnMaster> there, secure auth by first public key and then enforced password. (all thus using a restricted user)
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15:12:10 <ehird> 21:44:57 <ais523> wow, I just realised how terribly awful http://windows7sins.org/#1 is from a graphics design point of view
15:12:11 <ehird> fucking hell that's ugly
15:12:20 <ehird> looks like one of those one-page sites where they get you to buy a get-rich book
15:12:37 <ais523> and to top it, the content isn't particularly good either
15:12:58 <ehird> I wonder if you can anti-donate from the FSF
15:13:05 <ehird> like, transfer $10 from the FSF to the EFF
15:13:25 <ais523> do you think that the FSF are paid by Microsoft to spread FUD so obvious it backfires?
15:13:42 <ehird> ais523: that would explain the free software song
15:13:48 <ehird> JOOOOOOOIN US NOW AND SHARE THE SOFTWARE
15:13:59 <ais523> or that awful Stephen Fry documentary?
15:14:23 <ehird> I love how it was Freedom Fry when he's british
15:14:36 <ehird> 22:32:05 <coppro> w00t clean Ubuntu install is nice :)
15:14:36 <ehird> 22:32:22 <coppro> I should seriously consider doing this every 6 months, rather than upgrading
15:14:36 <ehird> you're doing something severely fucked up to your upgradees...
15:15:50 <ehird> 00:58:52 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea how to connect to internet using your phone in ubuntu?
15:16:09 <ehird> 00:59:16 <ais523> I don't see why people would assume i do
15:16:09 <ehird> 00:59:18 <ais523> *I do
15:16:10 <ehird> because everyone does
15:17:01 <ehird> AnMaster: on ubuntu it's easy
15:17:11 <ehird> connect via bluetooth, then connect to → bluetooth
15:17:44 <AnMaster> ehird, read the whole discussion with fizzie below before commenting on that :P
15:18:07 <ehird> 01:16:35 <ais523> but I imagine phone-tethering would be hard to develop, as most networks ban it
15:18:08 <ehird> 01:16:37 <ais523> rather expensive, too
15:18:19 <ehird> the iphone 3g s has tethering, but not in the us/AT&T
15:18:41 <ehird> 01:17:16 <fizzie> Er, it's a fixed 10 eur/month for unlimited data.
15:18:41 <ehird> 01:17:31 <ais523> wow, your mobile operators are much less rip-offy than the ones over here
15:18:57 <ehird> you can get a practically-unlimited-for-light-stuff contract for £25/mo
15:19:01 <ehird> with unlimited 3g interwebs
15:19:57 <ehird> ais523: also you can have a pay-as-you-go + £10/mo unlim 3g internet
15:21:34 <ehird> 01:40:01 <fizzie> chi.mp seems to be giving out "free" (haven't read the details) .mp domains.
15:21:34 <ehird> you can only host an openid thingy on them tho
15:21:51 <ehird> 01:41:13 <ais523> oh, quite a few TLDs have been taken over commercially, now
15:21:51 <ehird> 01:41:22 <ais523> which IMO is making a mockery of the Internet
15:21:51 <ehird> like everything else involving money and the internet since the 70s, right?
15:22:00 <ehird> it must be a pretty damn big mock by now for you
15:22:55 <fizzie> There was some talk about a website in the .mp, but I really didn't bother to read the details.
15:24:26 * oerjan is disappointed hum.an doesn't exist
15:27:40 <fizzie> "Netherlands Antilles"
15:27:52 <ehird> ais523: so stop using it and stop whining
15:28:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, eh.. netherlands is .nl iirc, so what is this "Netherlands Antilles"?
15:28:15 <oerjan> apparently you have to be from there to register, but it's strange no one there thought of it...
15:28:16 <ais523> ehird: I mostly don't use most of the bits I don't like
15:28:24 <ais523> the reason I whine is because I rather enjoy it
15:28:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: ever heard of colonialism?
15:28:31 <ehird> ais523: it's annoying.
15:28:48 <fizzie> It's two islands in the Caribbean; that seems to often be the case.
15:29:04 <fizzie> "The Netherlands Antilles was scheduled to be dissolved as a unified political entity on December 15, 2008, so that the five constituent islands would attain new constitutional statuses within the Kingdom of the Netherlands,[3] but this dissolution has been postponed to an indefinite future date which will at the latest be October 2010." -- maybe that's why people don't like their TLD.
15:29:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, I would have assumed they dropped the name of the parasite country when they became a separate country. And would have used the same TLD if not a separate country
15:29:36 <ehird> country TLDs are so stupid
15:30:14 <fizzie> Autonomous regions of one country often have their own ccTLDs. land has .ax, to pick a nearby example.
15:30:15 <ehird> the only thing they can usefully classify non-arbitrarily is single-country organisations (and you never know when an organisation will spread), and they break every single domain in them if the country disappears, unless they're persuaded to not drop it
15:31:47 <ehird> I wonder if there's a 3g internet service with free roaming, dammit :P
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15:32:56 <fizzie> They don't sell .ax domains to any non-land-related companies/individuals, though. I don't think I've happened across an .ax site ever.
15:33:22 <ehird> people who use country TLDs for personal stuff amuse me
15:33:30 <ehird> "I am never ever ever going to move!"
15:34:05 <ehird> grr, I wish people would stop linking to http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
15:34:14 <ehird> the business model it outlines is utterly impractical and useless...
15:35:12 <fizzie> I think there was some talk in engadget-mobile referring to some US operator with data plans that included roaming (but 3G only in the States, only GPRS when roaming, and I don't know how unlimited-data the roaming parts were).
15:35:38 <ehird> my crapbook thing has that awful gprs/ie thing
15:35:47 <ehird> but I wonder if the gprs can be used for non-IE-server stuff?
15:35:51 <fizzie> For Finnish operators roaming-GPRS tends to cost some really absurd amount of money, like well over 10 eur/MB.
15:35:59 <ehird> who cares, I'd rather pay £10/mo for 3g
15:36:10 <ehird> but yeah, roaming, grumble
15:36:24 <ehird> the whole point of mobile internet is to make location irrelevant imo
15:36:43 <fizzie> As long as you move within your little box, yes.
15:36:45 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/06/new-thinkpad-keyboard-features-crowdsourced-design-lower-price/
15:36:51 <ehird> New ThinkPad desktop keyboard thing.
15:36:56 <ehird> Funny how I was talking about it yesterday.
15:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are saying that ccTLDs only make sense for stuff like governments and such?
15:37:20 <AnMaster> (at least they usually don't spread)
15:37:22 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much. and local branches of international metaorganisations, maybe
15:37:34 <ehird> like "Fishermen International" has a group "Fishermen Ireland
15:37:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what about something like BBC?
15:37:40 <ehird> then fishermen.ie would make sense
15:37:49 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a governmental organisation, more or less
15:37:58 <ehird> with a few degrees of seperation
15:39:20 <ehird> but the trackpoint is a boon when typing ofc
15:39:36 <AnMaster> yeah, and I prefer a keyboard that is less shallow
15:40:10 <ehird> who likes desktops anyway :P
15:41:31 <AnMaster> ehird, for long term use I prefer a computer I don't have to look down at to see the screen. Maybe a laptop with a monitor on some sort of extendable hydralic arm or such?
15:41:42 <ehird> You can plug displays into notebooks
15:42:08 <ehird> and flatten down the screen to use the kb/nub/pad
15:42:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes sure, but also a full sized keyboard is nice when typing for long periods.
15:42:19 <ehird> thinkpad keyboards are full sized
15:42:26 <ehird> the keys are the same size as on a desktop keyboard
15:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yes mostly, Ctrl/Alt and space are not full sized for example
15:43:21 <ehird> not on the older ones
15:43:27 <AnMaster> because they needed to fit the arrow keys in on the same row kind of
15:43:53 <AnMaster> and they dropped one windows key to be able to do it
15:44:09 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/3072.jpg
15:44:46 <AnMaster> that one drops both windows keys and the menu key to manage it
15:44:56 <ehird> AnMaster: use fn as an extra modifier
15:45:04 <ehird> after all, most of the keys have no fn action
15:45:08 <ehird> so you can use it for them
15:45:18 <ehird> I don't have any menu key on this keyboard and I've had zero problems, too
15:45:22 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc impossible, fn generates no key event to computer I think... let me check
15:45:30 <ehird> maybe it does on the older ones :P
15:45:57 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/b/b4/ThinkPadX60.jpg ;; this was the machine the uni battery guy had, right?
15:46:02 <ehird> it's one of the most famous ones, I'm pretty sure
15:46:13 <ehird> and prolly the only IBM one to hit 14hrs...
15:46:18 <AnMaster> oh wait it does, but BIOS intercepts some, such that Fn-PgUp generates no key event apart from Fn
15:46:38 <ehird> well, sure, but it's a minority of keys that have a fn action
15:46:41 <ehird> so you can use it for all the oters
15:48:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what about escape key relative F keys... that is one thing I often typo, hitting F2 when I mean F1, because F1 is where Esc is usually
15:48:36 <ehird> I'm sure I'll adjust
15:48:51 <ehird> I just need the main block of keys, enter, backspace, delete and modifiers most of the time
15:49:00 <ehird> (I'll probably map Fn-Backspace to delete for easiness)
15:49:10 <AnMaster> ehird, and it still doesn't solve the issue with feeling I mentioned above. I much prefer keys that goes down further (like traditional desktop keyboards)
15:49:21 <ehird> yes, but you're crazy,
15:49:23 <AnMaster> sure, thinkpads have great keyboards compared to many other laptops
15:49:31 <ehird> no, they have great keyboards full stop.
15:49:51 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if you prefer full depth or shallow ones.
15:50:42 <fizzie> The logitech illuminated Fn key doesn't generate anything visible to the computer, which is a bit of a shame.
15:50:59 <ehird> fizzie: scissor-switch right? buy the thinkpad keynub! :P
15:51:01 <ehird> [15:45] ehird: http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/b/b4/ThinkPadX60.jpg ;; this was the machine the uni battery guy had, right?
15:51:33 <AnMaster> ehird, mmh nop don't think so. Hard to say from the pic
15:51:47 <fizzie> I just switched keyboards, I think I'm going to have to use that at least until I break its spacebar too.
15:52:05 <ehird> prolly T60, or T61 if it was widescreen
15:52:11 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I can tell you on friday, same course then.
15:52:25 <ehird> were the point's buttons red, i wonder
15:52:39 <ehird> if so then it'd be T43
15:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird, if you could show me the left side of it closer I could tell better I think.
15:53:45 <AnMaster> because I saw that most of the time
15:53:59 <AnMaster> oh and it definitely didn't have a floppy, not sure if that one there does
15:54:16 <ehird> I don't think they've ever had floppies
15:54:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I just think that any ultrabay battery must be really heavy if it changes 5 1/2 hours into 14
15:54:31 <ehird> so I doubt it's a T-series, really
15:54:47 <ehird> 9 hours with the 9-cell?
15:54:52 <ehird> It's definitely an X series.
15:54:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well maybe it was 10 cell then
15:55:19 <AnMaster> ehird, it was sticking out quite a bit, so possibly more than 9 cell
15:55:34 <ehird> The T43 gets 5 1/2 hours on the 9 cell
15:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, one card reader slot above a pc card slot on the right side
15:55:41 <ehird> Similar for the T60
15:55:44 <ehird> So it can't possibly be a T series
15:56:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well it wasn't http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/b/b4/ThinkPadX60.jpg because it did have a touchpad.
15:56:24 <ehird> Then he was lying to you about the battery life :
15:56:47 <AnMaster> ehird, is there any step above 9 cell?
15:57:11 <ehird> Sure, like, up to 12-cell. Regardless, 5 1/2 hours on 9 cell != 9 hours on 12 cell
15:57:38 <AnMaster> ehird, might have been 12-cell then,
15:57:49 <AnMaster> I might have misremembered that bit
15:57:50 <ehird> It wasn't a T series.
15:57:59 <ehird> Only the X series, which has no touchpads, gets that much battery.
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15:58:34 <AnMaster> ehird, design looked very similar to my R500, the whole thing was slightly smaller (looked like maybe 14" instead of 15.4") and the battery was sticking out quite a bit
15:58:48 <ehird> It may have been 15" normalscreen.
15:59:19 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9343.jpg
15:59:25 <ehird> http://macbitz.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/thinkpad-t601.jpg
15:59:26 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, but definitely not 4:3
15:59:34 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg
15:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Are you sure
15:59:54 <ehird> http://www.landbiksen.dk/catalog/images/5153-IMG7415s.jpg
16:00:02 <ehird> http://www.vernontech.ca/uploads/lenovo_thinkpad_t61.jpg
16:00:19 <AnMaster> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9343.jpg <-- not too much off, but don't remember the bit that is sticking out on the right side of the screen
16:00:28 <ehird> See links after "If so, then"
16:02:02 <AnMaster> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg <-- looks quite similar, but less widescreen? http://www.landbiksen.dk/catalog/images/5153-IMG7415s.jpg <-- PC card slots are off, it had one pc card slot and above that a card reader which was not part of a pc-card. Also that seems to have a thicker boarder for the screen?
16:02:34 <AnMaster> but maybe the thicker boarder is just doe to the angle of the picture
16:02:50 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg is not after "If so, then".
16:02:54 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/4/4b/Thinkpad.jpg is the 4:3 T60.
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16:03:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well, can you wait until friday, I will try to see what the model number is then ;P
16:03:44 <ehird> I'm convinced it either doesn't exist or you're misremembering.
16:04:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I could be misremembering that it was a ibm and not a lenovo (and didn't some early lenovo ones still have the ibm logo on them?)
16:05:14 <fizzie> Maybe it was actually a live goat and not a laptop at all?
16:05:15 <ehird> Only the latest two models or so don't have the IBM logo, whereas Lenovo has owned it since 2004/2005.
16:05:24 <ehird> So there are many Lenovo-manufactured models that have the IBM logo on them.
16:05:40 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Mine doesn't have the IBM logo btw
16:06:15 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, show me pics of 9 cell and 12 cell and I'll tell you which of those it was
16:06:48 <ehird> Unless that ultrabay battery back weighs like a kilo, no way a trackpad-having ThinkPad gets that much battery, though.
16:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, the trackpad uses a lot of energy?
16:07:36 <ehird> No, it's just that the X series is the only one that could handle that sort of battery life.
16:07:41 <ehird> And they don't have trackpads.
16:07:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Have you seen http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/PC110?
16:08:12 <ehird> Pic with scale: http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~linma/gif/ibm_palmtop_pc110.gif
16:08:22 <ehird> Actual photo: http://www.mobile-diary.com/pc110/pc110_5.jpg
16:08:36 <ehird> AnMaster: No idea, but jeez!
16:08:45 <ehird> Imagine that keyboard. Ouch.
16:08:50 <ehird> Gotta be worse than the iPhone's.
16:09:07 <ehird> I like how http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~linma/gif/ibm_palmtop_pc110.gif is Droste.
16:09:37 <ehird> Also really pointless.
16:09:44 <AnMaster> what is the meny system thingy on it
16:09:57 <ehird> Some proprietary bootup thing, I think. It also runs Windows.
16:10:03 <ehird> And DOS, and Linux and BSD.
16:10:11 <ehird> It's also very thick.
16:10:32 <fizzie> "So's your..." and so on.
16:11:15 <ehird> There are two completion to that that come to mind and only one is an insult. Although the other is mildly disturbing.
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16:13:27 <AnMaster> aah I know what the other one is! "goldfish"
16:13:54 <ehird> Yo goldfish so fat, she doesn't fit in a standard-sized goldfish bowl.
16:14:51 <ehird> "Yo momma so fat, she's slightly above the standard BMI!"
16:14:58 <fizzie> Wife's family have this Toshiba T1000 PC "laptop", it's so very portable: http://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/comp/museumpics/toshibat1000a.jpg
16:15:11 <ehird> fizzie: What, really?
16:15:22 <ehird> Please tell me they actually use it.
16:15:41 <fizzie> 640x200 screen and all. And a 256-kilobyte ROM chip (with ms-dos 2.something) in place of a HD; but you can use floppies for storage.
16:16:07 <fizzie> There was something wrong with it last I heard, but it wasn't very many years ago when we played a bit of Tetris on it.
16:16:15 <ehird> Wait, it has a graphical screen? Amazing.
16:16:17 <fizzie> Can't exactly say it'd be in *active* use right now though.
16:16:27 <ehird> That keyboard is probably buckling-spring.
16:16:54 <fizzie> CGA-compatible monochrome screen, but graphical, yes.
16:16:56 <ehird> Deewiant: That old?
16:17:03 <ehird> Anyway, awesome people used this: http://www.computercloset.org/Apple_Macintosh_Portable.jpg
16:17:11 <ehird> It's got a trackball and button and all.
16:17:18 <AnMaster> also what do you mean... non-graphical screen?
16:17:42 <ehird> The Macintosh Portable was also stylish! All whit eand all.
16:17:49 <ehird> Also it ran system 6 up to system 7.5.
16:17:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's a serial port.
16:17:55 <ehird> And had a 16Mhz processor!
16:17:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm that's a bit too slow
16:18:01 <ehird> Plus you had a whole 1MiB of RAM.
16:18:02 <fizzie> "Alongside the earlier T1100 and T1200 systems, the Toshiba T1000 helped to change the image of portable computing. Before the T1100, previous supposedly portable computers were large and unwieldy." Fortunately that's not unwieldy at all.
16:18:09 <ehird> Even expandable to 9MiB or 8MiB if it's the backlight version.
16:18:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You think the CPU could handle anything faster? :-P
16:18:14 <ehird> It's so high-spec, isn't it?
16:18:18 <ehird> It even had a hard disk!
16:18:20 <AnMaster> ehird, but wasn't the CRT itself technically able to render graphics, just the hardware wasn't able to be told to do so?
16:18:23 <ehird> And it had a modem inside.
16:18:28 <AnMaster> (not that the difference matters)
16:18:37 <fizzie> That T1000 had the standard 4.77 MHz.. well, it's a 80C86, but compatible anyway. And 512 kB of RAM.
16:18:38 <ehird> AnMaster: True, I guess.
16:18:53 <ehird> fizzie: See? The Macintosh Portable was way superior. And came out in 1989. :-P
16:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it could be non-graphical like a cheap calculator
16:18:58 <ehird> Too bad it cost $6,500 for the base model.
16:19:12 <fizzie> ehird: The T1000 came out in 1987, so it's understandable it's a bit less powerful.
16:19:24 <ehird> Also, it had a good display.
16:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't the macintosh portable WAY heavier?
16:19:34 <ehird> AnMaster: 16 pounds
16:19:40 <ehird> `calc 16 pounds in kg
16:19:41 <HackEgo> 16 pounds = 7.25747792 kilograms
16:19:50 <AnMaster> ehird, that Toshiba looks lighter
16:19:55 <ehird> I doubt the other one was much less luggable.
16:20:13 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe I misjudged the scale...
16:20:18 <ehird> It doesn't really matter at that point, considering you can't really carry it.
16:20:22 <ehird> AnMaster: They're about the same size.
16:20:37 <AnMaster> ehird, one has a tracball on the side too
16:20:43 <ehird> But its keyboard is smaller.
16:20:44 <AnMaster> possibly smaller keyboard though
16:20:45 <fizzie> http://pc-museum.com/gallery/rcm-061-big-Macintosh-portable.jpg -- it does look a lot kewler.
16:20:57 <fizzie> Ah, there was a picture already.
16:21:19 <AnMaster> anyway my plan when asking for network was:
16:21:43 <AnMaster> but with serial it wouldn't be usable even as that
16:21:46 <fizzie> It's usable as a serial terminal.
16:21:53 <ehird> You know, it'd be easier to plug in a monitor and keyboard to the server. :P
16:22:13 <ehird> fizzie: Does that Toshiba have a fan in it?
16:22:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes, but I was thinking something that was low end graphical, something that 10 mbps Ethernet could have handled
16:22:18 <ehird> I bet the Macintosh Portable didn't!
16:22:34 <ehird> Since Steve Jobs hated fans. Which is why the Mac kept frying.
16:22:37 <fizzie> I don't really know, could be either way.
16:22:54 <fizzie> I used to have a VT510, but it burned out. :/
16:23:23 <fizzie> An awesome piece of hardware, did some sort of 132x50 tiny-font display and everything.
16:23:27 <ehird> http://dec.vecmar.com/products/productpage.asp?pid=2660-DEC_VT_510_Terminal
16:23:31 <ehird> so not exactly a rarity :P
16:23:32 <AnMaster> I wonder why there is a useless indention in the "screen" (technically not the screen, but the area around it) on that mac... I mean one is for the trackball
16:24:01 <ehird> It looks nicer symmetrical.
16:24:11 <ehird> I want a GreenArrays chip. I'd write a little OS thingy for it. :P
16:24:24 <fizzie> Sure it's not rare, but I don't think I can justify getting another.
16:24:38 <fizzie> I don't think it did color, though, unlike the VT525. (Might be remembering wrongly too.)
16:24:44 <ehird> "Here's a comparison of GA32 and 2 GA4 packages. We're testing chips and making mock-ups for possible applications. Hopefully mock-ups will help raise funds for real boards. Testing, of course, goes on forever."
16:24:44 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/G32-G4.jpg
16:24:46 <ehird> Wow they're small.
16:24:58 <ehird> (That's what she said to the FSM.)
16:25:24 <AnMaster> anyway, how long would a 9 cell battery last with those?
16:25:49 <ehird> Flying Spaghetti Monster
16:25:55 <AnMaster> (of course they aren't intended for the same purpose)
16:26:00 <ehird> And not very on their own, you assemble them into a supercomputer.
16:26:02 <ehird> A bunch of them in one.
16:26:09 <ehird> They're unclocked, so they all run at different speed.
16:26:17 <ehird> (native silicon speed, pretty much)
16:26:30 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/haypress2.jpg is an assembled littleputer thingy.
16:26:57 <AnMaster> ehird, don't you need clock for some stuff? Like making sure avoiding metastable state and such.
16:27:04 <AnMaster> (I'm no expert on this though)
16:27:13 <ehird> Chuck Moore is clever. he'll have fixed it
16:27:18 <ehird> He knows that kind of stuff.
16:28:36 <AnMaster> thought you needed some kind of speed limiting to make some components work by making sure they didn't settle into a meta stable state or whatever. "flip-flops"?
16:29:18 <ehird> Does anyone know ... whatever I was going to ask
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16:31:56 <fizzie> No, I think ehird's question is still an unsolved problem.
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16:37:23 <ehird> ais523: i'm curious as to an answer to AnMaster's q too
16:38:38 <fizzie> At least it's not the first clockless CPU design; there have been other working-but-experimental models.
16:39:05 <ais523> ehird: sorry, I've been afk for a while
16:39:05 <ehird> I wonder what native silicon speed is, anyway
16:39:12 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the issue?
16:39:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> They're unclocked, so they all run at different speed.
16:39:45 <AnMaster> <ehird> (native silicon speed, pretty much)
16:39:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, don't you need clock for some stuff? Like making sure avoiding metastable state and such.
16:39:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> thought you needed some kind of speed limiting to make some components work by making sure they didn't settle into a meta stable state or whatever. "flip-flops"?
16:40:03 <ais523> yes, you do need speed limiting, due to slew rates
16:40:20 <ais523> the metastable state only really happens with self-references, unless you're really unlucky
16:40:29 <AnMaster> ais523, so how could that colourforth chip work as unclocked?
16:40:36 <ais523> but if you try to run a circuit too fast, there just won't be time to change 1s to 0s
16:41:01 <ais523> and asynchronous design doesn't imply that it's running max speed with nothing limiting; just that there isn't a global clock
16:41:16 <ehird> is silicon speed quantifiable in hz?
16:41:22 <ais523> there'll almost certainly be local synchronization or control circuits, either implemented clock-style or some other way
16:41:40 <ais523> it's massively temperature-dependent, for one thing
16:41:40 <ehird> I assume it's like 50ghz normally or sth?
16:42:09 <ais523> but in one of our lab experiments, we chained 7 NOT gates in a loop, which for that sort of logic gave oscillation rather than a metastable state
16:42:28 <ais523> and the resulting oscillation was so fast that we could only just notice it on the student oscilloscopes, even setting them to the max frequency range
16:42:40 <ais523> I can't remember offhand what value they go up to, though
16:42:56 <fizzie> "Caltech designed and manufactured the world's first fully Quasi Delay Insensitive processor. During demonstrations, the researchers amazed viewers by loading a simple program which ran in a tight loop, pulsing one of the output lines after each instruction. This output line was connected to an oscilloscope. When a cup of hot coffee was placed on the chip, the pulse rate (the effective "clock rate") naturally slowed down to adapt to the worsening performance
16:42:56 <fizzie> of the heated transistors. When liquid nitrogen was poured on the chip, the instruction rate shot up with no additional intervention."
16:43:43 <ais523> ofc, the massive slowdown in silicon-based circuits when they're heated is one of the more interesting demonstrations
16:43:57 <ehird> no overclocking required
16:43:59 <ais523> it basically makes all the components electronically leakier
16:44:04 <ehird> 1. Beef up the cooling
16:44:06 <ehird> 2. There is no step two!
16:44:11 <ais523> you get more stray electrons doing random things, rather than what you want them to
16:44:45 <ehird> so what kind of range does it get at usual CPU temperature
16:44:51 <ehird> double digit ghz? triple?
16:45:13 <ais523> it depends a huge amount on the fabrication techniques used
16:45:43 <ais523> you have to pay quite a lot extra to get a circuit going faster than a few tens to hundreds of megahertz, but ofc modern computers are much faster than that
16:46:06 <ais523> (which is one of the reasons that modern processors are quite expensive as silicon chips go)
16:46:38 <fizzie> One would assume the "instruction rate" would depend also on how the chip does whatever it does, i.e. how much logic there is to go through.
16:46:51 <ehird> ais523: let's say AMD produced a clockless chip using typical desktop cooling
16:47:02 <ehird> with as good as process as their x86 chips
16:47:09 <ais523> ehird: the answer is I don't know
16:47:21 <ais523> my guess is, though, that the circuitry would be more complex
16:47:30 <ais523> and the circuit would have to run more slowly as a result
16:47:40 <ais523> OTOH, you'd have a considerably simpler motherboard
16:47:58 <ais523> half of what a motherboard does is trying to match the wildly varying clock speeds of different bits of the system
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17:35:09 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hudh/the_most_complex_computer_science_operating/ ;; BSD astroturf? :-P
17:36:51 <ehird> http://www.losethos.com/godsongs.html
17:43:39 <ehird> "I consult God regularly. One design decision He made was no child windows -- policy of one window per task. Another decision He made was 640x480 resolution. I posted a promise of sticking to this resolution. Then, God said He didn't mean permanantly, but I had already promised and God expects you to keep your word. Those were the main influences by God on my operating system. He's made little things, too."
17:43:56 <ehird> ("God's court is the supremest court. It's funny -- I hear these punks saying piracy is not theft. I'd like to see them tell God. I thought so!")
17:44:03 <ehird> you never fail to make me laugh, losethos
17:44:12 <ehird> ("Wouldn't you believe in God if He talked to you? What's nutty about that?")
17:44:28 <ehird> "I downloaded opensound with a BSD license, but couldn't uncompress it. I even bought a new copy of winzip -- no luck."
17:47:22 <ais523> what format was the archive in? tgz?
17:53:07 <ehird> he's just so crazy :)
18:30:12 <fizzie> If "opensound" means OSS, the download form lets you decide between .rpm, .deb and .tar.bz2.
18:31:26 <fizzie> A reasonably new winzip should be able to do bzip2, I think.
18:31:33 <ehird> He decided not to because it's evil BSD license
18:31:39 <Deewiant> Stupid valgrind, segfaulting on an unstripped binary :-(
18:31:45 <ehird> And it allows no commercial use therefore it's against people making money
18:32:15 <fizzie> Source downloads are .tar.bz2 only.
18:36:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what the hell did you do to make it do that
18:37:19 <Deewiant> strip -s ccbi && valgrind ccbi -- OK
18:37:36 <Deewiant> Also happened with 3.4.something last week
18:37:38 <AnMaster> becuase I guess this is some issue with reading debug info
18:37:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I hope your valgrind is built with debug info so you can report a bug about it
18:38:26 <Deewiant> They'll want a copy of the binary anyway so I won't bother
18:38:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh? I reported bugs to valgrind before. All but one fixed so far
18:39:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really good devs there who tries to figure out each bug
18:39:17 <AnMaster> of course, a good test case is always a good idea
18:39:39 <AnMaster> but failing that they seem to accept binaries that cause the issue too
18:39:52 <Deewiant> Yeah, but I don't want to give them a copy even of the binary :-P
18:40:15 <AnMaster> also, make a simple test case in D
18:40:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ccbi2? you made the hg repo public iirc.
18:40:42 <AnMaster> because I'm pretty sure I have a copy somewhere
18:41:10 <Deewiant> Hmm yeah, I could try a non-secret copy
18:41:39 <ehird> <AnMaster> HOW DARE YOU BE A CATHEDRAL
18:42:59 <Deewiant> Yeah, evidently the non-secret one fails too
18:43:32 <ehird> Deewiant: how's it secret :P
18:44:06 <Deewiant> It's not a /problem/ for me though, I can just run valgrind on the stripped copy and then ask gdb unstripped_copy what the symbol at a given address is
18:45:42 <Deewiant> strip --only-keep-debug makes it unexecutable, nice
18:47:42 <Deewiant> Ah, it could be http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197988
18:47:42 <fizzie> Isn't that what it should do, anyway?
18:48:10 <Deewiant> Is it? Isn't there non-debug not-needed-for-running stuff
18:48:13 <fizzie> "The intention is that this option will be used -- to create a two part executable. One a stripped binary which will occupy less space in RAM and in a distribution and the second a debugging information file [which is not supposed to be executed anyway]."
18:49:31 <fizzie> I guess there's no "strip everything not necessary for running, but do keep debug info" flag.
18:50:42 <Deewiant> Great, they had a fix for it (2M stack) but backed it out
18:51:06 <Deewiant> I guess it's time to build my own valgrind and see if that helps
18:52:11 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Yeah, evidently the non-secret one fails too <-- what is the secret one?
18:59:42 <Deewiant> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=197988 presumably wasn't it after all, I made the stack size about 300 times bigger and it still doesn't work.
19:00:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, don't use such insanely long symbols
19:00:59 <Deewiant> I doubt they are that insanely long
19:01:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me what your long symbol is
19:01:13 <Deewiant> I don't know whether that even is the problem
19:01:15 <ehird> Don't you compile your binaries manually
19:01:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nm ./ccbi-unstrripped <-- look for the longest line
19:01:33 <Deewiant> dobelx64 is manually compiled though
19:01:42 <Deewiant> Can I do a sort by length somehow easily
19:01:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm... I was thinking about that myself
19:02:00 <ehird> awk print length | sort numeric
19:02:16 <Deewiant> How does one get length in awk, is the question
19:02:30 <Deewiant> It is, evidently, length. How obvious.
19:02:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, include the symbol too
19:03:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also that is insanely long
19:03:06 <ehird> [[awk '{print length" "$0}' | sort -n]], FWIW
19:03:22 <Deewiant> [[awk '{print length, $0} | sort -n]] is what I did
19:03:36 <Deewiant> The symbol is apparently full of MD5
19:03:42 <Deewiant> Meaning it's been compressed quite a bit already.
19:03:53 <AnMaster> wait, isn't md5 supposed to be one way?
19:03:56 <Deewiant> Some-end of the compiler does that to compress them.
19:04:11 <Deewiant> Yes, it is, so it's not fully clear where the symbol came from.
19:04:25 <Deewiant> It does have the initial part though, so I can guess.
19:04:45 <AnMaster> also if you get symbol names you need to compress to fit you are doing something wrong elsewhere ;P
19:04:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Think about it. If this were reversible, it'd be another 10-100x bigger.
19:05:01 <Deewiant> The compiler is doing something wrong by emitting this.
19:05:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yep that is what I meant
19:05:10 <Deewiant> This is a known bug, of which the cause is not known.
19:05:28 <Deewiant> It just shouldn't be emitted because it's compile-time only
19:05:48 <AnMaster> I meant that the compiler is doing something wrong if it manages to construct a symbol that long
19:05:49 <Deewiant> Or I mean, there is something that long there, it just should be discarded.
19:05:56 <Deewiant> Exactly, and you're wrong there.
19:06:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or possibly the user is doing something wrong,
19:06:25 <Deewiant> This is presumably the concatenation of all fingerprints' instructions' identifiers' names
19:06:33 <ehird> have you considered that YOU fail
19:06:54 <AnMaster> ehird, no I meant the common case where C++ generates long ones due to lots and lots of templates
19:07:00 <Deewiant> And since they're all "ccbi.fingerprints.rcfunge98.trds.dosomethingcool" or the like, it's no surprise that this grows a bit.
19:07:16 <ehird> Objective C++: "All the high level expressivity of C, with the lean and slim design of C++ together with the speed of Smalltalk."
19:07:34 <ehird> (http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9hqbk/drag_mouse_to_rotate_look_at_tree_through_portals/c0cu74a)
19:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, unable to view that flash?
19:08:21 <Deewiant> No, I don't think he is unable.
19:08:35 <ehird> I was linking to a comment, and no.
19:08:42 <ehird> You chose not to install flash, so you don't see flash content.
19:08:49 <ehird> That is a decision you have made and it is only because of you.
19:09:29 <Deewiant> The sum of all symbol lengths is 4895700
19:09:36 <Deewiant> Note, this is in the non-"-g" version
19:10:27 <Deewiant> The -g version goes up to 4974975; not that much more
19:11:35 <Deewiant> Anyway, this is what happens when you do compile-time functional programming with a crap compiler frontend ;-P
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19:12:31 <ehird> augur: I DON'T LOVE YO
19:12:38 <ehird> i have hyperactive enterkey syndrome
19:13:06 <Deewiant> It might be a linker fail in some way too, I guess, since they shouldn't be used from anywhere
19:14:18 <augur> ehird: well one would hope not
19:14:28 <augur> youre WAY too young
19:14:32 <ehird> YOU SAID THAT THE ONE OF THE TWO OF THE writing lines is boring
19:14:38 <ehird> anyway you would know, pedo
19:14:44 <ehird> HAVING CLAIMED TO LOVE ME THE LAST TIME YOU WERE IN HERE
19:14:47 <ehird> what am i even talking about?
19:15:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could try nm on each *.o
19:15:22 <AnMaster> I mean, if it was linker only or not
19:15:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try non-whole-program-insanely-fast mode?
19:16:17 <AnMaster> so you have one *.o per compilation unit
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19:19:46 <Deewiant> 13M ccbi.instructions.templates.o
19:20:16 <Deewiant> A 69-line file with four workarounds for compiler bugs
19:20:38 <Deewiant> Vim doesn't recognize it as D and thinks it's dtrace
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19:24:36 <ehird> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/shanerichmond/100003402/google-ufo-logo-mystery-solved/
19:25:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what about emacs?
19:25:25 <Deewiant> I don't know, I don't have emacs.
19:26:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this just proves how crappy a) current C implementations and b) vim are
19:26:23 <ehird> being unable to detect a file type = VIM SUX EMACS RULZ
19:26:28 <ehird> VIM PERHAPS EVEN DROOLZ
19:26:37 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, it is horrible isn't it
19:28:25 <Deewiant> The 87.97-MB emacs doesn't seem to have D support at all.
19:28:57 <AnMaster> 87 MB? what emacs variant is that?
19:29:12 <Deewiant> "emacs-23.1-3" from Arch's repositories.
19:29:26 <fizzie> Emacs is a bit lacking in the different-file-types front; of course there's a major mode for just about anything, but they don't ship everything by default.
19:29:55 <Deewiant> I like how they ship me a /var/games/emacs/snake-scores but not filetype support.
19:30:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't install that part of emacs usually
19:30:21 <fizzie> "ls /usr/share/emacs/23.1.50/lisp/progmodes/*.elc | wc -l" => 85, vs. "ls /usr/share/vim/vimcurrent/syntax/*.vim | wc -l" => 522.
19:30:51 <AnMaster> $ ls /usr/share/emacs/22.3/lisp/progmodes/*.elc | wc -l
19:31:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: If you want to know the test:
19:31:16 <fizzie> if match(lines, '^#!\S\+dtrace\|#pragma\s\+D\s\+option\|:\S\{-}:\S\{-}:') > -1
19:31:39 <Deewiant> Haven't bothered to modify it.
19:31:45 <fizzie> What part of the test is confusing it?
19:32:56 <Deewiant> Equivalent to * but non-greedy, evidently
19:33:42 <Deewiant> Yes, the line const C = "'" ~ (i=='\''?r"\'":i=='\\'?r"\\":i=='"'?"\"":""~i) ~ "'"; matches that last bit.
19:34:03 <fizzie> Apparently so; sounds like the Perl *?
19:34:19 <Deewiant> Beats me, I don't know the details of Perl regexp that well.
19:34:42 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Yes, the line const C = "'" ~ (i=='\''?r"\'":i=='\\'?r"\\":i=='"'?"\"":""~i) ~ "'"; matches that last bit.
19:34:54 <fizzie> It has *?, +? and ?? as non-greedy variants of plain *, + and ?.
19:35:13 <fizzie> Oh, and {...}? for {...}.
19:35:23 <fizzie> I think Java borrowed thom too.
19:35:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what the hell is that D line
19:35:47 <fizzie> No, "thom". It sounds more impressive that way.
19:35:59 <Deewiant> ~ is concatenate, the rest is C-compatible.
19:36:23 <Deewiant> Oh, and r"" is a string without escape chars
19:36:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok... why the hell then :P
19:36:42 <fizzie> I think I was trying to write "those" and "them" simultaneously.
19:37:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why do it as a series of nested ?: expressions?
19:37:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant as opposed to if else?
19:37:48 <Deewiant> if-else isn't a constant expression, is it now
19:37:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but that isn't constant either
19:38:15 <AnMaster> and if i is, then what is the point?
19:38:18 <Deewiant> i is a template parameter, so it is indeed constant.
19:38:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tell me, what the hell is it that you are doing :P
19:38:49 <Deewiant> That line is a workaround for http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=1059
19:39:48 <Deewiant> This code is probably in your copy of CCBI2, too.
19:41:33 <AnMaster> how many open D compiler bugs are there?
19:42:01 <Deewiant> That includes frontend and backend
19:42:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and in the ldc backend?
19:42:34 <Deewiant> 53, but some of those might also be for their frontend fork
19:42:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and how many compiler bug workarounds does CCBI2 contain?
19:43:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is so secret about it ;P
19:44:01 <Deewiant> 7 of those are for bug 810, which was fixed in the penultimate release but hasn't been merged into LDC
19:44:13 <Deewiant> Because that release breaks backwards compatibility with something else
19:44:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how long since D reached stable version?
19:45:03 <AnMaster> as defined by what upstream consider stable
19:45:06 <Deewiant> Oh, and 8 of them are for a workaround in the build tool
19:45:18 <Deewiant> Which could be removed if I switched to xfBuild, which I haven't bothered to do
19:45:50 <Deewiant> Well, 1.0 was called stable, although it actually wasn't (GRR 1.017, breaking several parts of my code)
19:46:02 <Deewiant> Anyway, that was beginning of 2007
19:46:12 <Deewiant> When the D1 - D2 fork happened
19:46:58 <AnMaster> I'm a bit surprised that there are so many bugs still left in D after that time. Few devs working on it?
19:47:02 <fizzie> Debian has 77742 active bugs in 11741 packages; what a rat's nest of bugs.
19:47:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, about 7 bugs per package?
19:47:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, any stats over which package has most?
19:48:08 <AnMaster> it would be interesting to see how evenly distributed it is
19:48:41 <fizzie> The median number of bugs is 2, however.
19:49:41 <Deewiant> Workaround stats for the DMD frontend in ccbi: 7 for 810, 5 for 1059, one each for 1640,1715,2288,2339,2991
19:49:41 <fizzie> 4804 packages with one bug, 2024 with two. Oh, and this is from the active-bugs index, so it's completely ignoring all packages with no bugs at all, which is not quite fair. :p
19:50:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't think I have any in cfunge, and I had one in efunge. Yay for stable software :P
19:50:38 <Deewiant> Yay for compilers with more than one maintainer :-P
19:50:41 <fizzie> Oh, and the top-three active bugs:
19:50:44 <fizzie> * apt (maintainer: APT Development Team <deity@lists.debian.org>) has 828 bugs
19:50:44 <fizzie> * installation-reports (maintainer: Debian Install Team <debian-boot@lists.debian.org>) has 2113 bugs
19:50:44 <fizzie> * wnpp (maintainer: wnpp@debian.org) has 3528 bugs
19:50:52 <AnMaster> of course there are some I more or less consider workarounds, like the double nested stringification macro
19:51:09 <AnMaster> so possibly a stupid standard workaround
19:51:17 <Deewiant> Just like installation-reports presumably is
19:51:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the wnpp meta-package for?
19:51:38 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=wnpp
19:54:15 <fizzie> Yes, "installation-reports" bugs are I think general "problems installing Debian" issues.
19:54:48 <fizzie> The apt bugs seem reasonably real, though.
19:55:18 <AnMaster> I guess it is just a software everyone use
19:55:29 <fizzie> Of course it counts minor and wishlist and other such things.
19:56:01 <fizzie> "Outstanding bugs -- Wishlist items; Unclassified (243 bugs)" is the largest single category for apt.
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19:56:40 <fizzie> The 7 other packages in the top-10 bugs list are aptitude, debbugs, dpkg, emacs21, evolution, iceweasel and linux-2.6. Pretty popular stuff.
19:57:01 <Deewiant> I'd've expected xorg in that list
19:57:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's split in too many parts, I think. :p
19:58:20 <fizzie> 952 bugs in everything matching /xorg/, that would make it replace apt in the top-3.
19:58:35 <fizzie> Though not if counting apt+aptitude+dpkg together.
19:59:50 <fizzie> 227 bugs in xserver-xorg-core, 178 bugs in xserver-xorg-video-intel; those are the only two three-digit numbers there.
20:00:37 <fizzie> There's a funky graph at http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
20:18:01 <pikhq_> Fried rice you made yourself is quite delicious.
20:18:28 <ehird> Not making it yourself inherently reduces its flavour. True story.
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20:19:03 <pikhq> Restaurants like covering it in soy sauce. Far too much salt, glutamates.
20:19:15 <ehird> What. I love soy sauce.
20:19:31 <pikhq> Some soy sauce adds nice flavor.
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20:19:48 <pikhq> Adding cups of soy sauce makes for a dish saltier than potato chips.
20:22:03 <Deewiant> http://asset.soup.io/asset/0426/5459_3af7.jpeg
20:23:52 <ehird> Deewiant: that was... almost funny :\
20:24:16 <Deewiant> Just not funny, or something more
20:24:33 <ehird> theoretically it should have been funny
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20:38:31 <Ilari> E621... a.k.a. MSG... Wasn't it causative for overweight in animal experiments and associated with overweight in humans? :-)
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20:39:06 <ehird> Ilari: what's your point
20:40:02 <Ilari> To that "Far too much salt, glutamates". And who cares about salt (apart from bad taste) unless one is exceptionally sensitive to sodium.
20:40:40 <Ilari> Statistically signficant != actually significant.
20:41:44 <ehird> Ilari: of course he means taste...
20:41:48 <ehird> unless you can't taste salt?
20:42:01 <pikhq> Ilari: "Bad taste" is the primary complaint.
20:42:38 <Ilari> Yeah, except that many have attitude: Eek... Salt (same type as eek... fat).
20:42:55 <pikhq> And I'm complaining about glutamates in general, not specifically MSG. (soy sauce has naturally-occuring glutamates. They overpower everything else when too much is used.)
20:43:58 <Ilari> Soy sauce proabably also has other nasty stuff in it (that screws with things like nutrient intake)...
20:44:25 <pikhq> Likely. I'm just complaining about how it tastes bad when you use tons of it, though.
20:44:33 <ehird> soy sauce is delicious though, who cares
20:45:24 <Ilari> That "assocated with"... As some research reports would say, MSG consumption is a risk factor for being overweight.
20:45:58 <pikhq> Most of the things that have MSG added have many other reasons for being bad for you.
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20:46:25 <ehird> i seem to be able to survive on just about anything
20:47:40 <Ilari> Yeah, but that MSG-weight association seems independent of that...
20:48:42 <Ilari> Yeah, most stuff in stores that contains MSG contains quite nasty stuff.
20:49:05 <ehird> i'm not sure I can physically get overweight
20:49:13 <ehird> I've been underweight my whole life no matter how much I eat
20:50:55 <Ilari> (ever wondered why GI of fructose is so low compared to glucose even if both are very closely related)?
20:51:11 <ehird> Never in my life, Ilari.
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20:55:22 <Ilari> Glucose GI: 100 (defintion), Fructose GI: ~20.
20:55:41 <ehird> I have a feeling Ilari is involved in some sort of nutritionist field
20:58:57 <ehird> Wolfram Alpha doesn't help you care about stuff
20:59:33 <Ilari> It just seems that most of current "nutrion science" is total garbage...
21:01:50 <Ilari> Badly designed research, conclusions that do not follow from data, bad media reporting, etc...
21:11:46 <Ilari> Standard trick: Send embragoed (keep secret until publication of the actual study) press release about some study to press (of course, distorting even further from already distorted conclusions). The press then distort it even further and then all give press without reading what the actual study says.
21:17:54 <Ilari> And of course this might come on top of study design so bad that one wonders wheither incompetence is sufficient to explain it.
21:19:45 <ehird> Ilari: it's a conspiracy!
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21:26:59 <Ilari> One of the funniest was rating various diets based on model which compared them to modern food guidelines... And one of the diets there was Atkins... One can guess how well it fared...
21:30:22 <Ilari> Oh, and then there was effects on cholesterol computed for compared diets. And let's just say that those values were not sanity-checked against real-world values...
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21:31:50 <ehird> Ilari: do you like research this much into absolutely everything :D
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21:34:18 <Ilari> What I come across... I have seen lots of quite wild stuff. Including stuff that would have serious HSQ if the math would check out (I usually skip the heavy math on first reading).
21:34:46 <Ilari> Holy Shit Quotent.
21:37:16 <Ilari> Stuff like deriving Special Relativity, something close to General Relativity and some cosmological stuff (without having to invoke dark energy) out of model with *absolute* time.
21:39:19 <ehird> I need to replace the batteriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiies eseseseseseses in this keyboard, because it keeps repeating the same key which just closed all my browser windows and did ← that.
21:39:46 <ehird> But that was amusing.
21:40:26 <Ilari> Why does that remind me of Linux doublecore keyboard bug? :-)
21:41:12 <ehird> Every key repeated or something?
21:41:33 <Ilari> Every keypress appeared twice.
21:42:29 <ehird> Deewiant: run the keyboard code on both cores
21:42:41 <Deewiant> How do you manage that accidentally
21:42:43 <ehird> so that it notifies each core about it, they both send it to the rest of the system
21:42:52 <ehird> Deewiant: corespawn(kb);corespawn(kb);
21:42:59 <ehird> or maybe it runs everything on every core by default in that section
21:43:02 <Deewiant> // OOPS, didn't mean to do that
21:43:04 <ehird> like, it's a general-stuff-for-the-cpu
21:43:10 <ehird> which each cpu core needs
21:43:15 <ehird> and they had the kb in that for single core
21:43:20 <ehird> without realising it would break with more cores
21:44:03 <Ilari> Something OS-visible that's shared between cores but not been processors in SMP configuration...
21:45:39 <fizzie> For a multi-core system you can program the APICs to sensibly route interrupts; I could believe they can be configured to deliver keyboard interrupts to both cores accidentally.
21:46:10 <Ilari> That wouldn't expain it.
21:46:28 <Ilari> (assuming the keyboard interface is similar to what PS/2 used).
21:47:03 <ehird> dual pentium III, fuck yeah
21:47:35 <Ilari> Double-IRQ would mess with it for sure, but at least PS/2 interface suppiled the real scancode data from I/O port).
21:48:17 <Ilari> The first IRQ would read the key and the second would then get nothing. Or they both would get parts and really mess things up.
21:50:01 <fizzie> There are interrupt-based USB endpoints, but I have no clue how those work really.
21:56:49 <Ilari> From /proc/interrupts: LOC: 657 698 369 (Timer), IRQ17: 367 783 122 (NIC), IRQ14: 35 914 225 (IDE), IRQ1: 8 306 061 (Keyboard), IRQ15: 170 134 (IDE), IRQ23: 1 007 (USB), IRQ16: 587 (USB), IRQ12: 323 (Mouse), IRQ0: 44 (Timer), IRQ4: 7 (Serial), IRQ6: 4 (floppy), IRQ8: 3 (RTC).
21:56:51 <ehird> in your end point.
21:59:34 <Ilari> Hmm... Racked 72 more IRQ6's backing up some source code. :-)
22:05:10 <Ilari> Hmm... Esolang that has 94 no-arguments operators (!-~) and every previous character affects decoding of the next... Would make code totally unreadable & unmaintainable.
22:06:35 <Ilari> Except that malbolge also scrambles code when running...
22:09:32 <Ilari> Probably best would be language that could be proven to be TC with non-constructive proof but that wouldn't have any easy constructive proof that it is TC.
22:11:15 <Ilari> Or where the size of programs really explode when they get more complex (but still its TC).
22:13:40 <fizzie> Even /proc/interrupts is so complicated nowadays: http://pastebin.com/m2c5bc2b4
22:14:28 <fizzie> There used to be just IRQ lines from 0 to 15 on a PC, and that was enough! Uphill both ways!
22:14:55 <Deewiant> Mine is even more complicated: http://pastebin.com/f7f0bb0ca
22:15:13 <Ilari> PCI-MSI-edge? HPET-MSI-edge?
22:15:20 <fizzie> More cores, more numbers.
22:15:36 <Deewiant> Instead I have "machine check" stuff
22:16:50 <fizzie> MSI is that PCI/PCIE message-signaled-interrupt thing, with the device sending a message over the bus to cause an interrupt, instead of having physical lines for that.
22:16:59 <Ilari> Those are just polls. Actual machine check events are worse.
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22:18:34 <fizzie> Oh, and "lspci"; at one point there was this one PCI bus, but now lspci lists five.
22:19:20 <Deewiant> I have three vacant PCI Express ports and one vacant PCI bridge
22:19:36 <Deewiant> Oh, and a PCI Express root port, whatever that is.
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22:21:02 <fizzie> http://pastebin.com/m18086ab0 -- I would like to, for example, know why the bt878 card has a different bus number there.
22:21:10 <Ilari> This computer has 4 USB ports. And according to lspci, 3 USB1 UCHI controllers plus one USB2 ECHI controller...
22:21:38 <fizzie> According to "lspci -t" that bus 04 is connected via that 00:14.4 "PCI to PCI Bridge".
22:22:27 <fizzie> And buses 01, 02 and 03 go through the more reasonable PCI bridges 00:01/02/06 up there; they even have some sort of labels there.
22:23:54 <Ilari> PCI bridge on card itself?
22:24:16 <fizzie> I doubt it'd be "ATI Technologies Inc SBx00" then.
22:24:53 <Ilari> What that SBx00 even is?
22:25:10 <fizzie> Probably "SB600 and SB700", product numbers.
22:25:14 <fizzie> South Bridge, I guess.
22:25:39 <Deewiant> Ah yes, it's an ATI motherboard isn't it
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22:28:42 <fizzie> That Intel Atom box has a significantly shorter lspci output; much less cruft there.
22:31:11 <ehird> So what window managers are you darned kids running these days
22:32:01 <ehird> icewm would be wonderful if it had just a lil more polish
22:35:31 <Ilari> And some bugs fixed, like that "lose input focus" bug.
22:36:00 <ehird> openbox is so strange. why do you have to keep some space free to get a menu to do anything? that's a ridiculous UI
22:36:03 <Ilari> (sometimes when focused window is closed, no window gets the focus).
22:37:05 <ehird> Fact is that you have to hunt for a bit of desktop
22:37:16 <Deewiant> For the menu? Just bind it to a key
22:37:19 <ehird> Which is ridiculous: Desktop is space that should be filled with useful things
22:37:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Pressing a key then directly taskswitching to the mouse seems inefficient/
22:37:40 <Deewiant> I have it on Win-esc myself, although I do always have some desktop free in the corners next to my toolbar as well
22:37:58 <Deewiant> See, your problem is that you use the mouse ;-)
22:38:08 <Ilari> The "losing input focus" is annoying because then "next window" and "previous window" don't work. To give something focus from keyboard, one has to use window list.
22:38:27 <ehird> it's just always seemed to me like openbox is a WM designed to make pretty translucent screenshots with small fonts /shrug
22:38:48 <Deewiant> Maybe it is, but it works for me with 0% translucency. :-P
22:38:56 <Ilari> Main WM menu is Capslock+M here. :-)
22:39:29 <ehird> i wish the automatic window managers actually made an attempt at intelligently managing them
22:39:35 <ehird> instead of "hurr, one to the left rest to the right"
22:39:39 <ehird> or "hurr, fibonacci spiral"
22:42:18 <Ilari> At least the windows don't spin by themselves...
22:42:45 <Ilari> One WM had key combo which made current window start to spin...
22:44:12 <Ilari> The same WM also had stuff like window rotation with three degrees of freedom, window zooming (seperate from resizing) and that...
22:44:37 <fizzie> At some point Enlightenment was the WM that seemed most focused on the pretty tricks.
22:45:11 <ehird> enlightenment has always seemed crappy to me
22:45:35 <ehird> i wonder if E17 is out yet :P
22:45:47 <fizzie> "Enlightenment allows you to have a grid of workspaces called virtual desktops. Switching between them is achieved by hurling the mouse cursor to the edge of the screen, at which the desktop appears to slide across to reveal the next. The maximum grid size is currently 8 by 8 desktops, and you can have 32 grids (each with a different background), making 2048 total possible desktop spaces."
22:46:07 <ehird> fizzie: 2048 desktops, fuck yeah
22:46:30 <ehird> (Users can enable a map of the desktops, in case they get lost, which is called the pager.)
22:46:37 <ehird> Enlightenment: So you can get lost in your desktops.
22:46:54 <Ilari> 2048 virtual desktops? I only have 11. :-(
22:47:17 <fizzie> "DR16 has been the choice of power users and artists due to its low overhead, highly graphical, widely theme-able, extremely configurable, yet unobtrusive interface."
22:47:27 <Ilari> (named "F2"-"F12").
22:48:00 <Ilari> Guess why there isn't "F1".
22:49:25 <Ilari> Nope, CAPSLOCK+SHIFT+Fx hits three-key same-row/column restriction with x = 1.
22:49:58 <ehird> on what keyboard is capslock+shift+fx comfortable
22:50:02 <Ilari> That is, one can't hit Capslock+Shift+F1.
22:50:19 <ehird> sure you can, with difficulty :)
22:50:33 <fizzie> From a suitably skewed perspective I could claim to have 216 virtual desktops, since there's six independently selectable tags on all three monitors, and 6^3 = 216. Though from an even more wonky perspective I guess I could claim 262144, since you can select any combination of tags, and (2^6)^3 = 262144.
22:50:45 <Ilari> Capslock+Shift+F1 just doesn't work.
22:51:49 <fizzie> I guess he means with a "on this keyboard" qualifier.
22:51:53 <ehird> i mean 'pataphysically?
22:52:14 <Ilari> If one hits three keys at once, the keys must either be in distinct rows in scan matrix or in distinct columns in scan matrix.
22:52:24 <Ilari> Otherwise the third key won't register.
22:52:33 <ehird> i don't think that is true with my keyboard, at least...
22:53:54 <Ilari> How the keys are located in scan matrix may vary depending on keyboard. But for any keyboard that uses scan matrix, that three-key restriction appiles.
22:54:13 <ehird> ó_ó I've never heard about this before
22:54:18 <fizzie> They do make keyboards completely without that problem; and I think quite many keyboards put the modifier keys "independently" recognizable.
22:54:37 <ehird> i guess the more expensive keyboards don't do that.
22:55:41 <fizzie> I think it depends on what sort of "expensive" it is; if it's just expensive-because-it-has-stylish-design they might not care. It's not like it hurts "normal use", especially if the modifier keys always work.
22:56:12 <fizzie> But the key-jamming problem is not a new one; Star Control came with a keyboard testing thing you could use to pick up keys so that two people can play the melee game without problems.
22:56:14 <Ilari> Pretty much the only use where the scan matrix layout really matters is hotseat multiplayer games.
22:56:31 <ehird> I mean like mechanical keyswitches
22:57:16 <fizzie> I don't think full n-key rollover is very common even in expensive-like-that keyboards, but I don't have any empirical data on this.
22:57:22 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29 is about it.
22:57:26 <ehird> It's not related to n-key rollover, is it?
22:57:37 <ehird> That's just being able to hit a bunch of keys at once, not neccessarily in the same row/column.
22:57:44 <Ilari> At least on this keyboard, left shift is part of normal scan matrix. Capslock+F1 is possible, Capslock+Shift+F1 isn't.
22:59:20 <fizzie> The reason you can't hit multiple keys is because of the matrix-style design. And it makes it sometimes rather nontrivial to find out which keys you can do.
23:00:01 <ehird> I've never had a rollover problem
23:00:05 <fizzie> On this logi-illu one, I can hit 'q', 'w', 'e' and 'r' successfully, but if I keep those four pressed 't' won't register any more.
23:00:11 <ehird> I type at like 100wpm, but only ever hit one or two keys at a time.
23:00:51 <Ilari> On this keyboard, two key columns in main block (alphabet, numbers & co) are on same scan matrix column.
23:01:11 <fizzie> It's not like it's an issue when typing. But when you have one person using wasd and a couple of "fire" and "special" buttons controlling one car, and another one with the cursor keys and another couple of buttons, it's trickier.
23:02:00 <fizzie> On the second row I apparently can do 'a', 's', 'd', 'f' and 'g', but with all those down 'h' will no longer register.
23:02:16 <ehird> fizzie: 3-key rollover is considered essential for English touch typing. [3]
23:02:27 <ehird> which doesn't make any sense to me
23:02:51 <Ilari> Here second row registers only up to 'f'. 'g' won't register anymore.
23:03:35 <fizzie> I'm sure the mechanical design does come to play too, when it comes to the speed how fast keys rise up and so on. Can't say I've had trouble *typing* with even the cheapest keyboards I've used.
23:03:58 <Ilari> Typing so fast that previous key doesn't have time to register as relased before next is pressed?
23:05:17 <fizzie> This is certainly no gaming keyboard, I can't seem to find any two wasd-shaped sets of keys where you could successfully record all eight simultaneous keys; it just goes up to six.
23:06:10 <ehird> I have never tried to press eight keys in a game at once.
23:06:16 <Ilari> If keys register on positive edge, and there is no ghosting/jamming, then release delay (if not enough to cause false autorepeat), won't usually be problematic.
23:06:32 <fizzie> ehird: Maybe you haven't been multiplayering much with a single keyboard, then?
23:06:59 <ehird> I generally use crazy invention like : Inter - net!
23:07:36 <ais523> fizzie: meh, hjkl-shaped > wasd-shaped
23:08:16 <fizzie> ais523: I'm not sure that's true for gaming, especially if the game is usually played with cursor keys and the second player just needs a suitable replacement.
23:08:30 <fizzie> Inter net! But it's so expensive, and my parents don't want me to keep the phone line busy all the time, and my 2400 bps modem gets so bad latency, and... well, no game supports that sort of thing anyway.
23:08:41 <ehird> wasd is perfectly intuitive, hjkl is just being contrarian for the fuck of it.
23:09:04 <ehird> fizzie: just hook up a modem and dial a friend running a Doom game
23:09:13 <ehird> you can use ordinary telephone numbers!
23:09:23 <Ilari> The second in main block is usually ijkl, with actions being something like 'b'.
23:09:45 <fizzie> I did that, but it's still expensive, and has the phone-line-busy problem, and anyway only a tiny fraction of games supported modem-based multiplayer.
23:09:48 <Ilari> (first being wsad, with actions being tabs, and various left modifiers).
23:10:26 <ehird> fizzie: just run a looooooong ps/2 cable to your friend
23:10:29 <ehird> to another keyboard
23:11:46 <fizzie> Warcraft 2 did, and ROTT, and Descent, and obviously Doom; but none of the cave-flying games like kops, v-wing, luola; eh, I guess that genre is not so widespread outside Finland, really.
23:12:27 <fizzie> Slicks'n'Slide, too... actually I think that's a Finnish invention too.
23:12:35 <ehird> what were the game mechanics of these... cave-flying ames
23:12:42 <ehird> http://www.luolamies.org/software/luola/screens/screen6.png ;; looks great
23:12:45 <ehird> did you just lik... fly
23:13:03 <fizzie> Yes, and shoot your friends with a multitude of weapons.
23:13:30 <Ilari> (at least if you still have flyable ship)...
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23:13:50 <ehird> fizzie: oh, and if you hit things you die?
23:13:52 <fizzie> Yes; v-wing lets you continue with just your "guy" when the ship goes boom.
23:14:11 <fizzie> Depending on settings, but usually bumping into things does take up some of your health.
23:14:20 <fizzie> And the levels are usually bitmap files (or a few of them) so there's quite a variety of levels available.
23:14:37 <coppro> we should just all play falling sand
23:14:38 <Ilari> The ship from Luola has ejector seat...
23:14:57 <ehird> falling sand kind of doesn't have any game mechanics
23:15:26 <coppro> but there are other versions
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23:15:42 <Ilari> And the standard equipment for player moving on foot includes parachute and ninja rope...
23:15:53 <Ilari> Plus some kind of peashooter.
23:15:59 <ehird> Ilari: ninja rope stolen from Worms or the other way around?
23:16:21 <coppro> stupid make is slowing my computer down
23:16:33 <ehird> What you need, when you need it
23:16:51 <Ilari> Stolen poorly from Worms. The one in Worms is much more useful.
23:17:07 <ehird> Ilari: well, the whole flying thing is basically identical to the super sheep in worms ofc
23:17:15 <ehird> except... shooting
23:17:23 <ehird> but i doubt that was stolen
23:17:27 <ehird> since it's pretty obvious
23:18:05 <ehird> it has no game mechanics.
23:19:03 <Ilari> Also in Luola if ship got destroyed and the player got to docking pad on foot, one got new ship...
23:19:39 * ehird downloads this luola thing in the hope it has single-player AI
23:19:57 <Ilari> There is also modes where players start on foot and level has N (or N-1 in another) ships scattered around.
23:21:19 <fizzie> There's also that "N players run around with Worms-style ninja-rope and shoot the others" game; or I think at least two of them. Don't remember the names.
23:22:28 <ehird> that's called "Worms"
23:23:13 <Ilari> Liero was ~first such game with 2-players. I have also played one such game over the net (back when I had 56K, which was actually 33.6k modem).
23:23:38 <ehird> Oh, Liero is ridiculously fun
23:24:38 <Ilari> I have also played Liero on Xbox (using the standard Xbox controllers). Didn't run very well.
23:24:54 <ehird> Liero's ninja rope is a bitch, though
23:25:11 <ehird> in fact all ninja ropes apart from Worms 2 onward seem to really suck
23:25:48 <Ilari> The one in Luola is probably the worst I have seen.
23:26:51 <fizzie> Right, Liero and some clone of it.
23:27:28 <Ilari> Aren't there at least 3 OSS one that allow N players? Soldat, NiL and Bankiz...
23:27:46 <fizzie> Oh, right MoleZ; and it was in fact the one that came before Liero.
23:28:36 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liero -- wikipedia knows all this important information.
23:29:46 <Ilari> And sometimes programming course has project subject to make (simple) Liero clone... Some years ago one such course produced two more liero clones...
23:30:21 <Ilari> (probably not found anywhere anymore)...
23:30:29 <ehird> Aw, Luola has no AI.
23:30:35 <ehird> Or networked multiplayer.
23:31:02 <fizzie> What that means: you need some real friends. :p
23:31:39 <fizzie> Kops is open source nowadays, too: http://jet.ro/kops/ -- it's a bit different from the other cave-fliers, though, may be an acquired taste.
23:31:44 <ehird> fizzie: (as opposed to all the chatbots I talk to in here?)
23:32:28 <fizzie> (But Kops won't have an AI either, or networked multiplayer for that matter.)
23:33:26 <fizzie> Kops is also the reason why I wrote that "VNC client with keyboard only", since we needed to play it with two keyboards to avoid the multiple-keys issues.
23:35:03 <Ilari> What, Xinput won't let you treat another keyboard as just another input device? :-)
23:35:31 <fizzie> There was just the DOS version back then.
23:35:56 <fizzie> But it ran under Windows, even with a VNC server running.
23:36:00 <fizzie> Had some palette issues, though.
23:37:42 <fizzie> It's easy nowadays since you can just stick in more and more USB keyboards.
23:37:53 <ehird> INFINITE DAISY-CHAINED USB KEYBOARDS
23:38:15 <fizzie> Not that I know whether Windows handles multiple USB keyboards, but one can always hope.
23:38:47 <Ilari> For those that like to do the same with mice, there's MPX... :-)
23:39:54 <fizzie> You can also just have multiple single-pointer-controlling devices and have the players fight with it.
23:40:03 <ehird> MPX + pointer warping = Trippy, man.
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00:43:42 <ehird> i am from the future
00:43:57 <coppro> I traveled from 1992 to hear you say that.
00:44:06 <ehird> "i can reference xkcd
00:44:10 <ehird> i am culturally relevant"
00:44:26 <ehird> "and socially respectable, also."
00:44:35 <ehird> in the future we have no folly
00:45:49 <ehird> that looks so wrong.
00:49:46 <ehird> it's just part of the general if (x) y thing
00:49:52 <ehird> but you can do it for do/while, which looks freaky!
00:50:04 <ehird> I prefer K&R declarations
00:51:12 <pikhq> I prefer a proper typesystem.
00:51:15 <ehird> you know right there
00:51:18 <ehird> it's passing argc and argv
00:51:32 <ehird> main(int argc, char *argv[])
00:51:35 <ehird> the names are buried
00:51:38 <ehird> you have to digest it all at once
00:51:41 <ehird> which isn't very procedural
00:59:07 <ehird> but "modern" C looks so ugly.
00:59:07 <ehird> so unreadable. so much metacruft.
00:59:07 <coppro> K&R is a bit redundant, but the problem is that it has no type-safety
00:59:07 <ehird> how is that not type safe
00:59:07 <coppro> ehird: the caller sees "int foo (var)" and has no idea what to pass
00:59:07 <coppro> I completely agree about the ugliness
00:59:07 <coppro> the standards committee refuses to add keywords :(
00:59:07 <ehird> K&R is *easier* to digest
00:59:07 <ehird> you get some semi-descriptive names, so you know the general order; and then you can poke at the indented bit next (up to unindented { - very easy to spot) and see the specific types for each
00:59:07 <ehird> and this also makes it easier to read linearly too
00:59:07 <ehird> with more indentation
00:59:07 <coppro> no, I mean the declaration
00:59:07 <ehird> there's a tab before those argc/argv type lines
00:59:07 <coppro> for the definition it's fine
00:59:07 <ehird> for the declaration, do
00:59:07 <ehird> int main(int,char*[]) or something
00:59:07 <ehird> because declarations are shit
00:59:07 <ehird> they're just hacks for compilers
00:59:07 <ehird> so I don't really care about style in declarations
00:59:07 <coppro> declarations are also hacks for people
00:59:07 <ehird> yes. declarations are a portal to perfect understanding of a function
00:59:07 <ehird> that's why we don't have any man pages.
00:59:07 <ehird> execve(const char *path, char *const argv[], char *const envp[]);
00:59:07 <ehird> I know comprehend everything about execve
00:59:07 * coppro is not a fan of a manpage-per-function approach
00:59:07 <ehird> snprintf(char *restrict s, size_t n, const char *restrict format, ...);
00:59:07 <GregorR> void *mmap(void *addr, size_t length, int prot, int flags,
00:59:07 <ehird> GregorR: Oh! It's obvious!
00:59:07 <coppro> ehird: I agree. Still easier to scan a file than load up the documentation and attempt to track something down
00:59:07 <ehird> header files never include docs.
00:59:07 <ehird> how about I just stab my eyes out with a brick wall
00:59:14 <ehird> and then castrate myself by bashing my penis through my eye sockets repeatedly
00:59:18 <ehird> lobotomising myself in the process
00:59:25 <ehird> that would be significantly less painful
00:59:30 <ehird> and way more enjoyable
00:59:40 <ehird> it could be just the same
00:59:43 <coppro> go ahead. At least I wouldn't have to listen to you complain about non-Haskell languages
00:59:58 <ehird> yes, because the only language I like is haskell
01:00:08 <ehird> anyway you don't even get to say anything. you *like* c++
01:00:19 <ehird> you're basically like a jew
01:00:22 <coppro> where did I say I like C++
01:00:27 <ehird> insignificant and never has any useful opinions!
01:01:06 <coppro> I said I program C++ by choice, I did not say I like the language
01:01:29 <ehird> okay then, you're into masochism
01:02:40 * coppro should do some homework
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01:04:40 <ehird> why is main() of type int, dammit
01:04:45 <ehird> it makes people use return in one function
01:04:48 <ehird> and exit() in another
01:05:08 <ehird> it should be void and the caller of main() should have exit(0) afterwards. gr.
01:18:09 <pikhq> Because C is a ridiculously inconsistent language.
01:19:06 <pikhq> Also, C++ headers are genuinely *awful*.
01:19:20 <pikhq> Especially for the standard template library.
01:21:22 <GregorR> Keep in mind that usu _start just calls exit with the return from main :P
01:27:21 <ehird> GregorR: I KNOW IT'S SO STUPID
01:27:30 <ehird> they have to have been purposefully dense to do it this way.
01:31:15 <ehird> I AM GOING TO MURDER YOU
01:32:59 <ehird> http://downloadmoreram.com/
01:42:28 <ehird> C needs things like != x → x = !x
01:44:54 <pikhq> C needs many things.
01:45:00 <pikhq> None of which are in C++.
01:45:06 <ehird> grid[x][y] = !grid[x][y]
01:45:10 <ehird> "hurr I suck cocks"
01:45:13 <ehird> "hurr I make you repeat"
01:45:22 <ehird> "hurr because i suck cocks"
01:56:58 <ehird> http://sites.google.com/site/ryanbroomfield/xkcd-sans-women
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02:34:41 <Sgeo> What's "Sgeo-cybernetics"?
02:35:18 <ehird> How the flying fuck are we meant to know?!?!?!!
02:35:27 <Sgeo> http://ccbb.biosci.utexas.edu/seminars.html
02:35:38 * Sgeo just thinks it's humerous
02:36:00 <ehird> 15:01:35 <Sgeo> http://ccbb.biosci.utexas.edu/seminars.html
02:36:00 <ehird> 15:01:47 <Sgeo> "The term "Sgeo-cybernetics" was first proposed in 2005 by Reyes et.al."
02:36:29 * Sgeo googled for Sgeo-cybernetics, but found no further information
02:36:48 <ehird> your memory is short
02:37:13 <Sgeo> "The term "Sgeo-cybernetics" was first proposed in 2005 by Reyes et.al." . I meant further than that
02:37:48 <ehird> you mentioned this more than a year ago
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03:29:04 <ehird> * Fri Aug 07 2009 Kristian Høgsberg <krh@redhat.com> - 2.8.0-4
03:29:04 <ehird> - Add dri2-page-flip.patch to enable full screen pageflipping.
03:29:06 <ehird> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=126369
03:31:10 <GregorR> http://www.explosm.net/comics/1785/ Everyone must watch this. Everyeone.
03:32:04 <ehird> cyanide and happiness eh
03:32:07 <ehird> i have a guess GregorR
03:32:13 <ehird> does it involve sex or murder
03:32:27 <ehird> it's a stretch i know
03:32:32 <GregorR> To the first two: Only extremely proximally. To the latter: No.
03:32:42 <GregorR> It's an animation. And it's unbelievable. It's ... omg just watch it.
03:32:45 <ehird> are you sure this is a cyanide and happiness production
03:32:49 <ehird> also does it requirea udio.
03:33:00 * Sgeo will, once Code::Blocks is installed, write his own linked list implementation, to see if he can
03:33:12 <ehird> Wow Sgeo, you can write your own linked list implementation using an IDE
03:33:15 <ehird> Master programmer.
03:33:19 <ehird> You must be so proud of yourself.
03:33:24 <GregorR> Yeah, because linked lists are a wildly difficult beast :P
03:33:34 <ehird> Totally. You need a whole installed IDE to tackle them.
03:33:47 <GregorR> ehird: It's the debugging.
03:33:52 <Sgeo> I'm too lazy to figure out gcc or g++ or whatever >.>
03:33:54 <GregorR> ehird: Inevitably you'll have segfaults up the wazoo
03:34:20 <ehird> please kill yourself :|
03:34:45 <GregorR> I didn't read the name, I thought that was ehird making fun of Sgeo.
03:34:50 <GregorR> Because it's too stupid of a statement otherwise.
03:37:49 <GregorR> oerjan: Watchin' the awesomeness? 8-D
03:40:12 <GregorR> It's so wonderfully dramatic!
04:06:11 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/XZMPOHm8
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04:14:08 <ehird> Sgeo: you're so special.
04:14:19 <ehird> bool result = true;
04:14:20 <ehird> result *= !(this->next()) || (this->next()->prev() == this);
04:14:20 <ehird> result *= !(this->prev()) || (this->prev()->next() == this);
04:14:25 <ehird> ladies and gentlemen
04:14:32 <ehird> Sgeo is retarded at boolean logic
04:14:52 <Sgeo> After I posted it, I realized that I should have replaced the || with && and gotten rid of the !
04:15:00 <ehird> i like how yours isn't even a linked list, just a node
04:15:07 <ehird> the user has to handle pushing himself.
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04:22:54 <MizardX> No way of changing the prev_item slot.
04:23:11 <ehird> you are tenacity incarnate
04:23:28 <ehird> now who are you, scoundrel.
04:24:05 <Tenacity> I've hardly had a chance to earn that title
04:24:23 <ehird> okay, let's ask a more direct question
04:24:28 <ehird> where did you come from
04:25:37 <Sgeo> It was just meant to be me practicing making a class in C++, nothing major
04:26:02 <ehird> Sgeo: anybody who can't write a good linked list implementation in 5 minutes is a bad programmer, simple as
04:26:10 <ehird> Tenacity: we stab tricksy people, btw.
04:26:39 <ehird> also this channel is about programming languages.
04:26:43 <Tenacity> Oh, i shall don my stab proof armour, over my flame retardant armour
04:27:18 <ehird> am i right Tenacity.
04:27:42 <Tenacity> right about what? being a bad programmer?
04:28:05 <ehird> anyway you'd better not be here for the esoterick magick. that only goes on in the backroom.
04:28:16 <ehird> stringent initiation procedures and all.
04:28:41 <Tenacity> oic. Well I shall keep my intentions well hidden until then
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04:31:54 <Tenacity> so no summoning in this channel?
04:33:51 <ehird> absolutely, cough, not.
04:52:43 * coppro just read that RollerCoaster Tycoon was entirely assembly
04:55:32 <oerjan> <ehird> now who are you, scoundrel. <-- i'm going to assume you secretly know Tenacity from before, as otherwise i think this channel is _really_ going downhill
04:56:06 <oerjan> ah, you just think it is getting too crowded in here?
04:56:20 <ehird> i wasn't actually, you know, being serious
04:59:16 <oerjan> well i am of the persuation that one should actually know people a bit before teasing them with insults. you may have heard of this concept called "misunderstandings".
05:03:14 <ehird> oerjan: when you consider the general rowdy atmosphere of this place I think anyone who gets offended enough to leave by the amusingly archaic insult "scoundrel" has no chance...
05:03:27 <ehird> in fact i'd say that prolly applies to the internet in general.
05:03:54 <oerjan> oh it's archaic? i may have missed some nuance here...
05:04:20 <ehird> "scoundrel" evokes images of top hats and curled moustaches.
05:05:03 * oerjan beats ehird severely with his cane O========O
05:05:19 <ehird> cane or double-ended penis
05:05:33 <oerjan> i _knew_ i shouldn't have tried to draw that.
05:07:19 <oerjan> ^ul (Rare on topic message for newcomers)!((0)(1)):^!S(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
05:07:20 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
05:08:03 * oerjan wonders when the last one was, but is too lazy to find out
05:08:09 <Tenacity> *dons his scoundrel hat and 'stache*
05:08:40 <ehird> Tenacity: yeah, dickwad.
05:08:47 <ehird> see that humour i did there
05:08:53 <ehird> i defended my jokingly archaic insult
05:09:04 <ehird> and followed up a mention of it with a decidedly non-archaic insult!
05:09:08 <ehird> just call me mr humour.
05:09:36 <oerjan> it's just i have this vague recall of #esoteric being an unusually friendly place, once upon a time.
05:10:07 <ehird> i'm friendly! as long as you always agree with me.
05:10:20 <ehird> oerjan: also, blame AnMaster. :P
05:10:34 <oerjan> i blame the Malicious Duo
05:11:35 <oerjan> but then i also have this vague recall of it often being on topic, but that may be just confirmation bias.
05:11:57 <ehird> oerjan: i read logs from 2002.
05:12:08 <ehird> esolangs were a rare topic
05:12:50 <ehird> it was mostly life-related chat tbh. also i remember skimming through logs and seeing lament make a sarcastic comment about it being a channel about manga and lack of a social life, not esolangs.
05:13:10 <oerjan> now manga we haven't had for a while i think
05:13:13 <ehird> though 2005-2007 was quite an esolangy era in my estimation
05:13:32 <ehird> i'm totally the channel's official archivist.
05:14:02 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/04.01.01
05:15:44 <ehird> oerjan: to reminisce of more esotericy times, try http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.10.05
05:15:50 <ehird> it is worryingly long and esoteric
05:16:27 <coppro> that sounds vaguely ontopic!
05:16:40 <ehird> but that's my point!
05:16:47 <ehird> it truly was a dark era.
05:17:04 <ehird> anyway we've gotten steadily more active over the years, never dropping more than slightly
05:17:15 <ehird> so i suppose from a pure activity point of view this is the best!
05:18:55 * oerjan hits back before he gets nostalgia overload
05:19:06 <ehird> you can die of that.
05:19:36 <oerjan> yes. i used to do that back in the day. *AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
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07:17:17 <MizardX> With JSON, you can make the commas and colons optional to save some space. {"foo"1"bar"[1,2nulltrue3]}
07:19:38 <MizardX> They are only needed to separate one number from another.
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08:18:09 <olsner> isn't foo: shorter than "foo"?
08:21:54 <MizardX> But then more commas are required, too be able to discern between '"foo1"' and '"foo", 1'. 'null', 'true' and 'false' would also need to be surrounded by separators.
08:22:46 <MizardX> if 'null', 'true' and 'false' are the only word-like values, they do not need to be surrounded by separators.
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08:25:52 <fizzie> Is this "you could make", or actually "you are right now allowed to make"? I mean, at least the RFC4627 defining the application/json MIME type has a BNF that explicitly requires value-separators (commas) and name-separators (colons).
08:32:48 <fizzie> Well, I guess you're allowed to make whatever you want; it's just that it sounded like "you can just do this and it'll work with existing JSON parsers and everything".
08:35:43 <Deewiant> I love it when two different course-info-reporting systems are in conflict with each other; one says there's a lecture right now and the other says there isn't. Of course I only noticed the former and now I'm at school with nothing to do
08:40:48 <MizardX> fizzie: "you could make"... but then it wouldn't be JSON.
08:50:57 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oodi and Noppa, or something else?
08:51:18 <Deewiant> With Oodi being the incorrect one this time
08:51:41 <fizzie> The latter should get lecture information from the former, though. Except that I guess people only list exceptions in Noppa newsposts and so on.
08:52:32 <fizzie> Or maybe the data transfer from one to another was more of a theoretical thing, actually; I think I remember manually adding lectures to Noppa.
08:54:31 <Deewiant> There was a separate news item in Noppa saying that lectures start on tuesday
08:54:47 <Deewiant> The actual lecture time data probably states monday in both places.
08:56:48 <fizzie> Right, well, given that Oodi is this mysterious hulking beast, I'm not surprised they don't list "hey, let's skip the technically first lecture and start on Tuesday" decisions there.
08:58:22 <fizzie> For the AI course, it was reasonably simple to get the per-course "admin" bit set for my Noppa account, but we didn't even try to get me officially registered as the course-responsible-person-guy in Oodi, it seemed far too difficult.
08:59:14 <fizzie> I wonder what's going to happen to the AI course now that the professor who used to be lecturing it has left.
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16:54:19 <ehird> [[Hard to keep a project under wraps and get an audience at the same
16:54:19 <ehird> time, it is. I do realise it was inevitable LKML would invade my
16:54:19 <ehird> personal space no matter how much I didn't want it to, but it would be
16:54:19 <ehird> rude of me to not respond.]]
16:54:20 <ehird> — Con Kolivas, on the audacity of *someone on LKML benchmarking his scheduler!!!!!*
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17:45:00 <ehird> Guess he should administrate some of that anaesthetic to himself huh? Oh I'm so witty.
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19:50:55 <AnMaster> 7 Sep 20:50:35 ntpdate[9865]: adjust time server 192.36.143.153 offset 0.000063 sec
19:51:07 <AnMaster> that's quite accurate it managed to keep my clock
19:52:50 <AnMaster> that's on my desktop though, it seems less able to sync on my laptop
20:27:21 <Ilari> 0.042874s here. Last sync was who knows how many days ago. But I set clock rate correction manually (not running ntpd):
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20:29:17 <Ilari> Correction parameters: Frequency: 1 957 969, Tick: 10 000.
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20:46:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, I run ntpd and it has been running continuously for weeks now
20:46:43 <AnMaster> on my laptop it is far from as good
20:46:43 <AnMaster> Ilari, also what are those parameters for/from?
20:47:20 <Ilari> AnMaster: They are kernel parameters controlling clock rate correction. Tick is left at default value, frequency is computed from ntp time step data.
20:47:53 <AnMaster> plus... how much frequency is off varies over time due to stuff like temperature of the clock source in the computer and so on
20:48:02 <Ilari> AnMaster: tick is coarse correction and frequency is fine correction.
20:48:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, why are you setting it manually?
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21:11:22 <AnMaster> <Ilari> AnMaster: tick is coarse correction and frequency is fine correction.
21:11:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> still, why not ntpd
21:11:22 <Ilari> Because its name ends in 'd'? I definitely want to keep everything listening to the net at minimum.
21:11:23 <Ilari> Not that I wouldn't have a firewall, but still.
21:11:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, you can set it to not provide a server
21:11:23 <Ilari> Probably. But clock on this computer isn't that important.
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21:11:25 <fizzie> This desktop of mine has recently (er, well, "not always"; it has been quite a while) somehow caught the habit of having a horrible clock drift; something like 2 milliseconds per second. (So almost three minutes per day.)
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21:13:37 <Ilari> So looks like its losing ticks...
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21:23:49 <fizzie> Oh, and dmesg prints out "Clocksource tsc unstable (delta = -152506783 ns)" immediately after loading the nvidia binary blob; might be related.
21:24:49 <Ilari> Well, that could explain things...
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21:25:53 <Ilari> Quite odd that TSC (processor time stamp counter) would become unstable.
21:26:28 <fizzie> Alternative blame-target is the vboxdrv module; it also prints out TSC/timing-related messages, like "vboxdrv: TSC mode is 'asynchronous', kernel timer mode is 'normal'."
21:26:35 <fizzie> Should investigate this some day.
21:28:20 <ais523> hmm... why would someone advertise US healthcare insurance to a .co.uk email address?
21:30:38 <Ilari> Spammers usually aren't very careful in restricting spam distribution...
21:53:12 <fizzie> Heh, should've quit while I was ahead; there was a "current_clocksource" file in sysfs, and since available_clocksources listed many (hpet, acpi_pm, jiffies, tsc) decided to echo those one by one into current_clocksource to see if the drift keeps happening for all. Current was hpet, acpi_pm didn't really cause any effects, but when I put "jiffies" in there, everything hung up "needs-sysrq"-badly.
21:56:12 <Ilari> Yeah, system clock freezing probably does not do good to system function.
21:59:44 <AnMaster> <Ilari> Quite odd that TSC (processor time stamp counter) would become unstable.
21:59:58 <AnMaster> I get that here, due to cpu frequency changes
22:01:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would recommend using not changing that except at boot
22:01:36 <AnMaster> with the clocksource parameter
22:01:44 <AnMaster> at least I had crashes when changing on the fly
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22:05:28 <fizzie> Yes, it seemed like a bad idea.
22:05:52 <fizzie> Anyway, I don't do cpufreq on the desktop (because it's unable to), so I'm still blaming one of those modules.
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22:06:48 <coppro> :( lack of shockwave player on linux (closely related to ":( who the fuck uses shockwave")
22:08:04 <fizzie> I had a five minutes of incomprehension on "what, Ubuntu doesn't have the Flash player suitably packaged?", before realizing that not supporting Linux/PPC isn't really their fault.
22:11:35 <coppro> Flash and Shockwave are different
22:11:39 <coppro> and Shockwave has a Mac version
22:11:52 <coppro> and Ubuntu does have a Flash installer package that works fine
22:12:56 <fizzie> It doesn't have a PowerPC Flash installer package, because the only PowerPC-supporting Flash player is for OS X.
22:13:47 <fizzie> And I know they are different. I don't think I knew about Shockwave's Mac version, though; but really, why would someone use shockwave nowadays?
22:14:40 <fizzie> The only Shockwave app I can think of offhand is that Habbo Hotel chat-place.
22:26:30 <ais523> coppro: oh, for a moment I thought you meant there was some Flash app that installed Ubuntu
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22:42:14 * coppro wants a good flash game that makes him think, but not too hard
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23:48:24 <Sgeo> can mes hab ball 4 slide pweaze yuhs neber gabezz it tew mes thankiez yuhz
23:48:41 * Sgeo suddenly realizes what that's intended to say
00:26:10 <Azstal> I sort of wish I couldn't tell what it says.
00:30:01 <Sgeo> I guess I should give this person the ball.
00:30:17 <Sgeo> But right now, I'm trying to apply brain bleach to my eyes
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02:58:59 <zzo38> There is something wrong with my internet, I don't know who to ask (technical support says nothing is wrong on their end).
02:59:13 <zzo38> Inbound connections to port 70 don't work (it worked yesterday)
02:59:57 <Sgeo> Any software changes? Firewall changes? Router changes? Do inbound connections to other ports work?
03:00:40 <zzo38> O no, I checked everything. The router settings are correct, the service works (connecting to localhost works), inbound connections on port 80 still work, outbound connections on port 70 work, and when using a proxy I get the same results.
03:01:44 <zzo38> I checked the DNS, tried stopping and restarting the service, rebooting the router, everything else too.
03:02:28 <zzo38> And it worked yesterday.
03:02:37 <zzo38> Where can I ask for help?
03:02:53 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know, so I tried this channel for nearly no reason
03:06:07 <Sgeo> Pandora stores passwords in plain-text!
03:06:47 <zzo38> There is no software change or firewall change or router change.
03:07:18 <zzo38> Port 25 doesn't work either
03:07:56 <zzo38> Technical support says they didn't change anything, but I'm not sure they know about it correctly.
03:07:57 <Sgeo> Are you on a university/college network?
03:08:29 <zzo38> Port 25 isn't always open anyways (I just started the SMTP server to test it, and it failed)
03:08:36 <Sgeo> s/plain-text//
03:08:59 <zzo38> But port 70 is definitely work, by localhost, but not by remote. Port 80 works local and remote.
03:10:13 <zzo38> And it worked fine yesterday.
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03:32:41 <coppro> someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine
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04:58:23 <coppro> ""Ubuntu", an african word meaning, "Gentoo is too hard for me""
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06:47:14 <ais523> comex: that joke's normally done with Debian rather than Gentoo
06:50:48 <fizzie> Yes, "African word for 'can't install Debian'" is the form I'm more familiar with.
06:52:23 <fizzie> See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.)
06:53:13 <fizzie> What I did not know is that "ubuntu" apparently also means: "To ejaculate on a womans face."
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07:40:30 <oerjan> with the structure of bantu languages in mind, ubuntu and gentu could easily be forms of the same word... not so with debian.
07:40:56 <oerjan> (bantu and ubuntu are, for one thing)
07:41:21 <ais523> fizzie: urbandictionary is full of duff meanings
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09:25:59 <ais523> http://ck.kolivas.org/patches/bfs/bfs-faq.txt
09:26:06 <ais523> unfortunately, I don't think it's actually written in brainfuck
09:26:20 <ais523> I'm still trying to figure out if the name's a reference or not, though
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13:03:38 <ais523> ugh, it seems that Virgin Media have some sort of custom search page that comes up for pages like http://nosuchdomain.invalid
13:03:51 <ais523> luckily it has an opt-out which AFAICT a) actually works, and b) doesn't use cookies
13:12:44 <fizzie> Isn't the slang term for that to "do a Verisign"?
13:15:23 <fizzie> Incidentally, I wonder how many $'s are implied by all the legal text at http://www.icann.org/en/general/litigation-verisign.htm
13:15:47 <fizzie> (For the lawyers that generated the text, I mean.)
13:19:25 * ais523 wonders if .invalid has an entry for it in the root DNS servers
13:19:39 <ais523> it is a real TLD, after all; but there are (deliberately) no sites on it
13:24:24 <fizzie> At least k.root-servers.net just says NXDOMAIN.
13:25:22 <fizzie> It is the Kewlest root-server of them all.
13:27:54 <fizzie> It has this fancy anycast distributed thing: http://k.root-servers.org/
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14:20:11 <comex> ais523: good for you
14:20:22 <comex> my ISP has an opt-out, it doesn't use cookies, the real deal
14:20:25 <comex> unfortunately, it doesn't work
14:20:35 <ais523> ofc I just opted-out everyone else on the same connection
14:20:38 <ais523> but that's probably a good thing
14:21:10 <comex> clicking the button didn't do anything
14:21:13 <comex> so I switched to opendns
14:21:33 <ais523> the NXDOMAIN-replacement pages seem to have long caches
14:21:39 <ais523> but new nonexistent pages work fine
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17:10:24 <Deewiant> We have ELF and DWARF; where's ORC?
17:15:32 <oerjan> is DWARF an executable format?
17:18:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume DWARF was a joke on ELF?
17:20:08 <FireFly> Wiki says it was, apparently
17:20:12 <oerjan> well ORC should be something suitably evil. perhaps some kind of report format for pointy-haired bosses?
17:20:28 <Deewiant> It could be the Windows executable format
17:21:36 <Deewiant> I assumed you were refuting my statement
17:22:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i think there's a *whoosh* hidden inside the first dot there
17:22:20 <AnMaster> stop using such a lossy compression scheme
17:23:04 <Deewiant> It's not among my habits to tell people "you missed/misunderstood my joke"
17:23:18 <Deewiant> I'd rather just assume they're idiots and leave it at that
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17:27:51 <AnMaster> what does me scoring top marks at a math exam signify I wonder...
17:29:17 <AnMaster> oh ehird isn't here. guess that is why he hasn't made any foul remark yet
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17:57:01 <Ilari> I got an idea for esolang. The actual runtime would execute code in tree form. Before running, the source would be run through preprocessor which built the tree for running, also containing operations to modify what's already built (move substrees, copy subtrees, delete subtrees). So that for any program X and tree Y, there exists Z such that X is prefix of Z and processes to Y.
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18:00:28 * Asztal sheds a tear in memory of Malcom, the 1TB hard drive, who died before his time :'(
18:01:27 <AnMaster> are there any algorithms that have an exponential memory upper bound but a linear upper time bound?
18:04:05 <oerjan> you cannot use more memory than time in a sequential algorithm
18:04:47 <Ilari> In the other way around, you can't use more than exponentially more time than you use memory.
18:05:12 <Ilari> So PSPACE is subset of EXPTIME.
18:06:46 <Ilari> That is, the preprocessor could patch anything already built into anything.
18:12:01 <Ilari> Its just at idea stage... One has to define what operations are supported and what their semantics are.
18:13:48 <Ilari> For the preproc, insert node, delete subtree, copy subtree, move subtree could be good set of operations...
18:14:05 <Ilari> Oh, and alter node.
18:17:18 <Ilari> Have various versions of source in one file, with next patching the previous, and the code quickly becomes too convoluted to follow...
18:17:24 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about paste subtree
18:17:29 <AnMaster> to make it some evil editing script like
18:18:04 <AnMaster> a copy-and-paste preprocessor XD
18:18:23 <Ilari> Err, cut-n-paste => move, copy-n-paste => copy.
18:19:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes hm but it should only have one copy buffer to hold the thing
18:19:51 <AnMaster> and it should be as an edit script or so
18:20:52 <Ilari> The edit preprocessor being complicated isn't the idea. The idea is to make the actual program (parse tree) effectively unfollowable by patching it bit-by-bit.
18:21:35 <AnMaster> Ilari, it would be another interesting preprocessor that was basically copy-and-paste operation (what then is the point of a preprocessor one could ask!)
18:22:57 <Ilari> Probably no... Would make things too logical.
18:23:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, depends on the macros... I mean you can make quite a mess with both C macros and LISP macros
18:25:40 <Ilari> Stuff like: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "World"; ADD 1.2 PRINT "!"; ADD 1.1 PRINT " "; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello"; ALTER 1.2 PRINT ", ";
18:27:13 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm, what is 1.1 and so on
18:28:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, obfuscation seems rather optional here, I mean, nothing prevents you from writing non-obfuscated programs?
18:29:27 <AnMaster> ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello world";
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18:30:11 <AnMaster> Ilari, one thing that could make it more confusing would be "RENAME SEQUENCE"
18:30:39 <Ilari> AnMaster: ADD 1 SEQUENCE; ADD 1.1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; ... It also tends to become funky when building larger trees...
18:31:19 <AnMaster> Ilari, what is the add sequence thing btw?
18:31:52 <Ilari> AnMaster: SEQUENCE is just "run nodes below here in order" operator.
18:32:39 <AnMaster> Ilari, this some similar to my SQL+HTML combination kind of
18:32:40 <Ilari> Actually, it could be 'ADD 1 PRINT "Hello, World!"; if there was impiled SEQUENCE at root level.
18:33:01 <AnMaster> I mean, declaring a tree through a complex upper caseish language
18:33:53 <AnMaster> which was like INSERT THE ELEMENT p INTO THE ELEMENT body WHICH IS A CHILD OF html
18:34:05 <AnMaster> and then references to first and second and so on
18:34:25 <AnMaster> (it was made to be very verbose English)
18:34:52 <AnMaster> I don't remember exact syntax I had, and the irc logs from then are on archive cd
18:35:02 <AnMaster> sometime in this channel, 2008 or 2009
18:35:41 <Ilari> And the references inside operations should maybe resolved when encountering them. Would do really funky things to code structure if one of the operations was GOTO...
18:36:40 <Ilari> You can't jump forward unless you make some really messy code.
18:37:29 <Ilari> And of course there would be equivalent to COBOL ALTER keyword: ALTER x.y.z GOTO a.b.c;... :-)
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18:38:37 <Ilari> ALTER from COBOL is quite probably the nastiest operation (from mainintance p.o.v.) ever seen in any mainstream language.
18:39:30 <AnMaster> Ilari, I don't know what this ALTER does
18:40:09 <AnMaster> Ilari, what about the actual language though, the bit that will then run
18:40:20 <AnMaster> it should be quite complex too IMO
18:40:44 <AnMaster> otherwise you could just run preprocessor and dump the result to understand how the program worked
18:41:01 <Ilari> Change target of GOTO. And it had really nice interactions with segmentation. ALTER + segmentation => run away screaming...
18:41:02 <AnMaster> oh and IMO goto is hell even from a coding point of view
18:41:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, segmentation as in segmented memory on x86?
18:41:30 <Ilari> More like manual swapping.
18:42:57 <Ilari> Obsoleted by virtual memory. Well, unless one wants to make stuff unmaintainable by mixing segmentation with ALTER.
18:44:04 <AnMaster> Ilari, so why would segmentation and ALTER interact badly?
18:44:50 <Ilari> IIRC, if segment containg ALTERed GOTOs was swapped out, the modifications to jumps were lost, so when reloading it, the jumps reset to their default destinations.
18:45:23 <AnMaster> Ilari, that sounds like "reset" rather than "swap out whatever is in memory"
18:46:20 <Ilari> Swap out really freed the memory occupied by segment.
18:47:08 <Ilari> So there would be space to load another segment in.
18:47:59 <AnMaster> Ilari, and discarded any data in it?
18:48:52 <Ilari> One probably also could swap out data segments. Those didn't reset when reloading.
18:50:33 <Ilari> I think it assumed that code segments are always 'clean' (and ALTER broke that assumption).
18:52:36 <Ilari> Remember, this was on era when even virtual memory wasn't common on mainframes...
18:54:07 <Ilari> And even mainframes didn't have multitasking but ran the tasks batch-style.
18:59:44 <AnMaster> Ilari, have you ever coded COBOL?
19:00:21 <AnMaster> Have you ever had a job where you coded COBOL?
19:01:32 <Ilari> No, I haven't coded COBOL. Just ran across that information about COBOL once.
19:03:11 <pikhq> COBOL was actually less awful than many people give it credit. It was designed long before we had *any* clue what makes a good programming language.
19:03:25 <pikhq> The only other languages out there were the languages that COBOL was based on.
19:05:18 <Deewiant> Algol and co. of course as well.
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19:11:43 <Deewiant> I think it was around the same time
19:17:35 <EgoBot> 118 +++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>++>+<<<<-]>---.>----.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>-----. [459]
19:17:50 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [315]
19:17:58 <EgoBot> 126 ++++++++[>+++++++++>++++>+><<<<-]>.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++..+++.>.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>++. [601]
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19:25:20 <Deewiant> bf_txtgen, how does it do its thing
19:26:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, genetic algorithm based on the form "set constant, set some other constants based on the first, print stuff and use +/- as needed as you go along"
19:27:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well think so, or one of those other "find good value" thingies. I'm not sure if it does recombination or not
19:27:36 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
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19:28:21 <AnMaster> anyone know what a good type to represent a tree would be in python?
19:28:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, parse tree of loops for bf for example
19:29:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, trying to learn python so decided to write a trivial non-optimising bf interpreter in it
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19:30:28 <AnMaster> and the sanest way is to make [ have the stuff in the loop as it's "children"
19:30:41 <AnMaster> at least the sanest way I can think of
19:30:53 <Deewiant> I guess just the basic thing: a class Node which contains a list of Nodes.
19:31:08 <Deewiant> Or call it whatever you want, I tend to call stuff like that Node.
19:31:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or a list containing either add,sub,print,read or a nested list?
19:32:47 <AnMaster> if not, how does one define some arbitrary symbolic name to represent an abstract value?
19:32:58 <AnMaster> in C you would generally use an enum or #define it
19:33:10 <AnMaster> in erlang you just use an atom
19:33:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and what do you do in python?
19:33:39 <Deewiant> There appears to be a library for symbols, if that's what you want: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/SymbolType
19:33:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it built into the language itself like enums and such?
19:34:23 <Deewiant> Libraries typically aren't builtin
19:34:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know how much a python library can change the language. Considering what can be done to perl...
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19:34:56 <Deewiant> You can look at the examples on that page, I believe
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19:39:34 * AnMaster wonders how to write a bf parser without tail recursion....
19:39:44 <AnMaster> surely it shouldn't be any harder...
19:40:00 <AnMaster> well, the tail recursion one would be a lot more elegant, sigh
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19:45:34 <AnMaster> as in, put functions in a dictionary and call the relevant entry?
19:45:45 <Deewiant> Instead of switch (foo) { case x ... } you can have an AA with x as a key and call the function at foo
19:48:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um one of the possible actions is returning from the function, I'm not sure how that could be acomplished
19:48:50 <Deewiant> Make it return false or whatever in that case
19:52:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any idea why: (loop, i) = parse_prog(program, i+1)
19:52:22 <AnMaster> oh wait, python doesn't have pattern matching does it :(
19:52:35 <Deewiant> I'm not going to list them all in response to the problem description "doesn't work"
19:52:36 <AnMaster> it seemed the obvious and elegant way
19:52:44 <AnMaster> ValueError: too many values to unpack
19:53:08 <Deewiant> Are you sure you're returning a pair from there always?
19:55:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok... wtf: mylist += 'foo' adds the element foo at the end as expected. mylist += ['foo', 'bar'] instead concatenates...
19:55:22 <AnMaster> (and I wanted to add the list as an element
19:55:58 <Deewiant> It's what I'd expect from a dynamic-type language like that
19:56:13 <Deewiant> Using + for concatenation is bad enough IMO :-P
19:57:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does one reload a python module that one imported without exiting and restarting the REPL (or whatever you call the python interpreter shell thingy)
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20:03:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah #python says it is reload(module) but "don't do it, because stuff will break"
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20:41:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mylist += ("a", "pair")
20:42:51 <Deewiant> It might, if lists and pairs are the same thing
20:43:21 <Deewiant> So they're essentially considered lists in that sense
20:43:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I don't know enough either
20:43:48 <AnMaster> also they aren't pairs, they are tuples actually
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20:56:29 <AnMaster> what do you use in python to print a string with no following space or newline
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21:32:35 <GregorR> AnMaster, Deewiant: I did not write bf_txtgen, calamari did. I didn't write most of what's in EgoBot, for that matter.
21:32:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, well true, but thought you wrote that one
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23:22:48 <ehird> I have RSI now! :P
23:26:17 <ehird> 15:48:24 <Sgeo> can mes hab ball 4 slide pweaze yuhs neber gabezz it tew mes thankiez yuhz
23:27:14 <ehird> 19:08:36 <Sgeo> s/plain-text//
23:27:18 <ehird> pandora stores passwords in WHERE?!
23:27:36 <ehird> 19:32:41 <coppro> someone explain to me why a P9500 is so much more expensive than a T9600. Please don't lecture me, etc. hardware is boring and I just want to know what reason I may have to buy a slower machine
23:27:40 <ehird> i would answer, but you said hardware is boring.
23:27:49 <ehird> 22:52:23 <fizzie> See for example urbandictionary.com, which has as the first meaning: "1. ubuntu: Ubuntu is an ancient african word, meaning "I can't configure Debian"." (Admittedly that's not "install" there.)
23:27:57 <ehird> pretty sure Mark Pilgrim initiated it with "configure Debian"
23:28:33 <coppro> ehird: is it cache size or something?
23:28:42 <ehird> coppro: what are the two costs?
23:28:53 <coppro> ehird: like $100 difference
23:29:10 <ehird> coppro: one's newer. perhaps one uses 45nm and the other uses 60nm or something
23:29:17 <ehird> coppro: perhaps extra cache. a whole bunch of things.
23:29:26 <ehird> coppro: who are you buying this from?
23:30:01 <ehird> both have the same cache, both are 45nm
23:30:18 <ehird> coppro: T9600 is more power-hungry
23:30:24 <ehird> your battery will last longer on the P9500
23:30:27 <ehird> although I can't say how much by
23:30:46 <ehird> P9500 is slower in raw ghz, ofc
23:31:00 <ehird> both have the same bus speed...
23:31:16 <ehird> coppro: if you care about battery life and don't need uber performance, get the P9500
23:31:30 <ehird> if you want to save whole SECONDS on your gcc compile, get the T9600
23:31:38 <ehird> (or if you want to save $$$, ofc)
23:31:53 <ehird> coppro: what model thinkpad, btw?
23:32:19 <ehird> ah. a wonderful lugbook :-P
23:33:00 <ehird> coppro: btw, apparently there's more keyboard flex on the newer thinkpads of some models
23:33:49 <ehird> personally I'm getting an old ThinkPad for the 4:3ness...
23:37:03 <coppro> one of the downsides to a new computer
23:37:13 <ehird> I love widescreen at 20" or bigger...
23:37:23 <ehird> but, ehh, I like laptops that fit on my lap
23:37:42 <ehird> a 14" 4:3 ThinkPad can fit on your lap, just like a 12" 16:10 ThinkPad
23:37:48 <ehird> except that the latter is useless as a main machine
23:38:20 <ehird> but by getting an old model, I compromise on speed, battery life, heat and brighter displays :(
23:39:58 <ehird> to mitigate the battery life I plan to use an UltraBay battery pack to replace the optical drive, but iirc the 14" Tsomething gets around 4.5-5 hours battery; I imagine I'll get up to 6 hours with the pack
23:40:12 <ehird> which isn't nearly as nice as the X200, which gets 9 hours on the 9-cell, but eh
23:40:44 <ehird> speed, I can manage as long as I have two cores; using an SSD should mitigate any silly clockspeed or architecture differences compared to my current machine
23:41:12 <ehird> heat shouldn't be too much of a problem since thinkpads have always been cool
23:41:31 <ehird> as for a brighter display, nothing I can do. :-(
23:41:43 <ehird> which kills any chance of using it outside, I guess
23:42:05 <ehird> coppro: yeah. on the other hand I'll probably save by getting an older model
23:42:18 <ehird> coppro: downgrade the CPU to the minimum and add an SSD :-P
23:42:40 <ehird> max laptop drive nowadays, about 320gb
23:42:47 <ehird> lenovo offers 128 and 256gb ssds
23:43:33 <ehird> admittedly even with the base CPU it might be too expensive, but it'll be way, way faster in general use than upping the CPU to the top option
23:43:55 <ehird> obviously not when doing CPU-intensive stuff, but that's so fast nowadays as tobe irrelevant
23:47:06 <ehird> lenovo rival apple in markup cost, which is irritating but understandable
23:48:06 <ehird> i wonder if it would be possible to rip out the backlight and replace it with a LED one :D
23:48:26 <coppro> well, they do allow unserviced upgrades
23:48:44 <ehird> yes, but I'm not even sure if you can *do* that to a display
23:49:04 <ehird> and I'd have no hope of finding a 14" display of the right dimensions, with a LED backlit, and the right connectors
23:49:16 <ehird> oh, and a high resolution like you can get on the ThinkPad stock ones
23:49:28 <ehird> simply because there was no ThinkPad produced with such a display
23:50:03 <coppro> ThinkPad is one of very few computers with the most important thing nowawadays :(
23:50:15 <ehird> keyboard, you mean?
23:50:40 <coppro> those matter, but the absolute most important thing is the nipple mouse
23:51:04 <ehird> eh, I'd be happy with Apple's wonderful large multitouch trackpad too, but failing that, yep
23:51:21 <ehird> from the looks of it, ThinkPads' trackpad is woefully bad
23:51:32 <coppro> haven't tried the multitouch touchpad though
23:51:52 <ehird> all I'll use it for is scrolling, since it looks bad. :P
23:51:56 <ehird> anyway the only *unsolved* problem I have is the display brightness, I think
23:52:10 <coppro> I use pageup/down for scrolling... call me old-fashioned
23:52:31 <ehird> that's a great way to give yourself a headache and slow yo udown while you try and find where you left off
23:54:13 <ehird> coppro: why the T500 over the T400, btw/
23:54:50 <ehird> coppro: then you want the W700ds, duh
23:55:01 <ehird> gotta love that extraneous second screen
23:55:21 <ehird> coppro: and RAID. and quad-core.
23:55:29 <ehird> and a 3 minute battery life!!!
23:56:45 <ehird> i know what I'll do!
23:56:59 <ehird> get a non-booting 14" 4:3, rip out the insides
23:57:03 <ehird> pop the insides of an X200 in
23:57:26 <ehird> also, saw the T400s display's sides off
23:57:38 <ehird> the T500's, actually, to get the height
23:57:51 <ehird> why didn't I think of that before.
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00:40:08 <ehird> okay, ChatZilla appears to be vaguely passable on windows
00:40:14 <ehird> which is... unexpected, I guess
00:40:20 <ehird> considering how much it sucks on OS X
00:41:05 * coppro has not tried it on OS X and so cannot comment
00:42:15 <coppro> I will take your word for it and subsequently ignore it and some later and more relevant time
00:42:49 <ehird> coppro: that's a very confusing sentence
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00:57:26 <ehird> http://explainxkcd.com/
01:01:08 <ehird> "This was wrong. David Gest has never had a sexually transmitted infection and did not have Ms Minnelli's dog killed." --The Daily Mail
01:01:20 <ehird> in a retraction letter
01:04:22 <ehird> an easy mistake to make
01:04:48 <coppro> they keys are like right next to each other
01:05:09 <coppro> (you know you're awesome when you are referencing bash :/)
01:20:40 <MizardX> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1289971.1289983 <-- "Context-Aware Scanning for Parsing Extensible Languages"
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01:51:33 <Amiral_> i was coming from http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/wiki/
01:52:35 <Amiral_> hehe, i m searching the guy ;)
01:52:48 <Amiral_> need some help from his script
01:53:27 <ehird> [01:53]===mtve: away with message “Disconnected now, messages are logged”
01:53:36 <ehird> What script, anyway?
01:53:58 <ehird> I wonder what the heck it does.
01:53:58 <Amiral_> do you know ss7 sctp protocol ?
01:55:57 <Amiral_> ok, when do you think he can come ?
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06:05:06 <Gracenotes> damn it, I accidentally did "rm blah.avi.00* > blah.avi", instead of cat. now I have to download it again >:[
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10:03:06 <fizzie> Which concepts are related to self-organizing maps? Yahoo knows: http://correlator.sandbox.yahoo.net/index.php/concepts/self-organizing+map
10:03:36 <fizzie> Mostly it makes sense, but I find the fact that ""The Dark Horse Book of Witchcraft" is probably related to self-organizing map" a bit dubious.
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12:53:49 <fizzie> I just wanted to be contrasty.
12:55:14 <ais523> hmm... today presented a data point in favour of the theory that knowing Java is nearly always sufficient to get a job
12:57:30 <fizzie> My personal experience has shown that knowing Perl is the most useful thing; two out of three of my employers have been mostly in search of someone who speaks Perl.
12:57:59 <ais523> in this case, though, I've been employed to teach Java to first-year undergraduate students
12:58:14 * ais523 wonders whether Java or Perl as a first language would be meaner
12:58:30 <ais523> one of my friends had Perl and Python as her first two languages, and both seemed to go quite well
12:58:41 <fizzie> With Java you also can't be blamed when they turn out to be school-shooters, because "everyone else's doing it too".
12:59:31 <fizzie> A person with a gigantic gun, which shoots schools out of it.
12:59:59 <ais523> that would be helpful over here, most of the UK faces massive competition for the good schools
13:00:14 <ais523> and there's a perpetual row about what the fairest way to allocate schooling to peopel is
13:00:32 <ais523> and what doesn't help is that the government are trying to get around the problem by attempting to pass laws to make all schools identical
13:00:33 <fizzie> One way is to disqualify people who write "peopel".
13:00:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the shot-out schools are very good, though.
13:00:47 <ais523> which is a) impossible, and b) a bad idea even if it were possible
13:03:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, unless bureaucracy intervenes, my Master's thesis will be accepted/graded next Monday; apparently it will also be the official graduation day, even though there's some formal diploma-distribution event a month later.
13:06:09 <ais523> mine was accepted and graded a few months ago
13:06:34 <fizzie> "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition"
13:06:59 <ais523> my experience in my department is that such master's projects always go wrong
13:07:03 <ais523> if it worked for you, then well done
13:07:49 <fizzie> It did take quite a while longer than it should, the work part was more interesting than the writing-about-work part.
13:08:07 <ais523> I actually rather enjoyed the writeup on mine
13:08:25 <ais523> it helped that I didn't leave it until after the project was finished
13:10:03 <fizzie> Finally I just wrote it in a month or so, because this "Helsinki Graduate School in Computer Science and Engineering" application deadline is next Friday, and they only accept graduated applicants. (The Academy of Finland -funded project my salary's been paid up to now is going to end this year, and the department would prefer it if I got some independent funding, which is what Hecse would provide.)
13:10:42 <ais523> are you almost guaranteed to pass?
13:10:44 <ais523> and with a good grade?
13:11:29 <ais523> for me, it was nervewracking wondering whether I would get top marks or fail altogether; a quirk in the marking scheme meant that those were the only two plausible results
13:13:16 <fizzie> Well, the supervisor's and professor's statement about it suggested a 5 (out of 5); the approving Council or Conclave or what-ever probably theoretically speaking can decide anything the like, but I think failing is really ludicrously unlikely. As far as I know they could still downgrade it to 4, though.
13:14:14 <fizzie> The results are sent via email the same evening, at least I won't have to wait long.
13:15:16 <fizzie> There's some sort of quasi-official guideline that they shouldn't be allowed to give the maximum grade without consulting a second professor, but it was a bit unclear whether that's actually observed.
13:16:30 <ais523> in the UK, the top few grades, the bottom few grades, and all fails, together with a random sample of the others, have to be reviewed by a second University
13:16:48 <fizzie> (I hope it doesn't mean they go all "okay, well, we gave it to this another professor and now you'll have to wait a month more before graduating", because in that case I'll have to do some sort of difficult handwaving in this graduate school application.)
13:16:49 <ais523> sometimes they interview the students, too
13:17:40 <fizzie> That sounds very serious.
13:17:55 <ais523> not always, because the grade has to be fixed before the interview
13:18:11 <ais523> so there's no way to mess up your grade by screwing up the interview
13:18:31 <ais523> but if the interview doesn't match up with what the 'external examiners' think the grade should be, the university who set the exam/coursework gets into trouble
13:19:15 <fizzie> Aw; I was hoping they'd make the students spin a sort of wheel-of-fortune style pass/fail wheel.
13:19:46 <fizzie> Then they could broadcast it on live national TV.
13:20:26 <fizzie> "graduation" is pretty close (lexically) to "gameshow" anyway.
13:21:08 <ais523> in English or Finnish?
13:21:38 <fizzie> English. Er, okay, so it's just the same initial letter. It's still closer than, say, a whale.
13:24:47 <fizzie> Actually it's as close in Finnish; "valmistuminen" versus "visailuohjelma". (I had to peek at the dictionary to see what a game show officially is.)
13:25:12 <ais523> are there unofficial Finnish names for game shows too, then/
13:26:56 <fizzie> I'm just not sure "visailuohjelma" has exactly the same connotations as "game show". I guess it is pretty close.
13:27:10 <ais523> such concepts normally don't translate too accurately
13:27:36 <ais523> actually, that's probably a good way to see how repetitively derivative something is
13:27:54 <ais523> for instance, I suspect "reality TV" translates more or less perfectly into many different languages
13:28:06 <ais523> because it didn't really evolve, it just more or less got copied everywhere
13:28:14 <ais523> and now, thankfully, people are getting bored of it again
13:29:11 <fizzie> Yes, there is an equivalent Finnish word.
13:30:46 <fizzie> fi-Wikipedia says "visailu" was a portmanteau of "visainen kilpailu", literally something like "a difficult contest" except that the word for 'difficult' is a sort of old-fashioned one. (fi:ohjelma is just "program" or "show".)
13:31:11 <fizzie> It's not exactly very "difficult contest" any more, at least in many cases.
13:31:19 <ais523> well, it's not exactly "reality" TV either
13:31:35 <ais523> given the efforts the producers go to artificially contrive what happens
13:32:49 <fizzie> I think they've started a new Big Brother round here recently; that's what I most associate with "reality" TV.
13:32:58 <ais523> they've just finished the penultimate round over here
13:33:09 <ais523> as in, channel 4 have said one more year, then they give up
13:33:21 <ais523> it's quite possible that one of the smaller TV networks will buy the rights off them, though
13:34:11 <fizzie> Apparently this is our fifth round.
13:34:52 <ais523> the rules seem to be slightly different from place to place
13:35:14 <ais523> come to think of it, I'm almost 100% convinced Wikipedia has a page somewhere summarising the differences, even though I don't know this from personal experience
13:36:32 <fizzie> They certainly have a lot of material about the show.
13:36:33 <ais523> wow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(disambiguation)
13:36:47 <fizzie> All kinds of very colorful tables.
13:36:47 <ais523> to be precise, the bottom of that page
13:37:24 <ais523> including "Big Brother Second Life"
13:37:36 <ais523> some are redirects, though, and a couple are stubs
13:37:39 <fizzie> There's also separate page for each of the five seasons for the Finnish version; I assume they extend the same courtesy to all other countries too.
13:37:55 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_2008_(Finland) is very... tabular.
13:39:19 <fizzie> And the "Variations in the format" section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(TV_series) there's something like a summary of differences.
13:40:27 <ais523> yep, I'm reading that now
13:40:44 <ais523> and, as is my habit, trying to work out if Big Brother is Turing-complete
13:40:44 <fizzie> "In Germany a new version of the show started: Big Brother - Das Dorf (Big Brother - The Village). -- This was the first version supposed to run for years (without a predetermined end). It was set in a small artificial village including a church tower, a marketplace, 3 houses, 3 working areas -- The season ended after 363 days in February 2006 because of low ratings."
13:41:26 <ais523> fizzie: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castaway_2000
13:41:45 <ais523> which actually predated Big Brother, and for which it's arguable whether it was reality TV or not
13:41:56 <ais523> for one thing, it was actually quite good, which means that it probably wasn't
13:44:21 <ais523> hmm... Wikipedia calls it reality TV; most people at the time called it a documentary, but that's possibly because reality TV hadn't been invented at the time
13:45:32 <fizzie> For some reason I was continuously expecting some sort of gruesome massacre when reading that description page, but apparently it never happened.
13:45:36 <fizzie> Or maybe it's just been hushed.
13:50:18 <ais523> there was no news of that presented to the outside world
13:50:29 <ais523> but then, all the information we got is what the contestants themselves broadcast
13:50:36 <ais523> which is very different from the way most reality TV works
13:54:00 <fizzie> "In the seventh UK series, Big Brother became "twisted". Every week, housemates' mental states were put to the test as Big Brother tried to break them. As a result of this, many housemates broke down." That sounds unintentionally hilarious. (Possibly only to me.)
13:54:23 <fizzie> It's like the housemates are some sort of machines, which break down every once in a while and are then "serviced".
14:08:11 <Leonidas> probably they were indeed "serviced".. in a mental clinic^W garage.
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14:18:06 <fizzie> Heh. "Teen Big Brother -- was originally shot in advance -- to air in 2003 as an educational item, screened as part of Channel 4's 4Learning programming. -- On Day Six/Seven, Jade Dyer and Tommy Wright became the first Big Brother UK contestants to have sex on the show in its history. According to The Independent, this was the first real-life sexual act shown on British television --"
14:18:12 <fizzie> Yes, that must've been very educational indeed.
14:20:47 <ais523> they actually showed it in schools
14:20:56 <ais523> I know because I was in school at the time
14:21:11 <ais523> but they were obviously trying to contrive the situation to increase as much as possible the chance that there would be sex involved
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15:15:38 <oerjan> <ais523> and what doesn't help is that the government are trying to get around the problem by attempting to pass laws to make all schools identical
15:15:45 <oerjan> ah, the norwegian system
15:15:51 <ais523> does it fail just as badly there?
15:15:56 <oerjan> (only slightly exaggerated)
15:17:35 <oerjan> well the norwegian school system is in constant need of improvement. many people think the main problem is that it has _too_ frequent reforms, so it never gets to settle into something that actually works...
15:19:03 * oerjan doesn't really know how badly it fails, only that everyone complains about it
15:20:00 <oerjan> however, private/alternative schools are relatively rare, although that too may start to change either way after the election
15:21:30 <oerjan> the left wing seems to want to reduce alternatives but under the pretext of making the state schools better instead, while the right wing wants to allow more private and alternative schools
15:22:30 <oerjan> oh right, the teachers complain about too much bureaucracy ... every reform comes with lots of new forms to fill out :D
15:23:13 <oerjan> and that it's so bad they barely have time to teach
15:25:52 <oerjan> at least we don't have metal detectors ;D
15:28:40 <GregorR> We've consolidated that by moving all the schools into airports.
15:29:02 <ais523> and the scary thing is I don't even know whether you're joking
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15:30:14 <GregorR> There were a select few particularly troublesome schools that had metal detectors in the US after the Columbine incident, and because news from the US tends to become distorted towards the absurd as it leaves our borders (oh who am I kidding, it's distorted towards the absurd in our borders), oerjan probably believes we all have metal detectors in our schools :P
15:32:00 <ais523> they use handheld metal detectors at some schools in the UK, apparently
15:32:05 <ais523> looking for knives rather than guns
15:33:31 <GregorR> Oh, they weren't looking for guns here.
15:33:37 <GregorR> They were looking for golden idols to other gods.
15:33:40 <GregorR> For our God is a jealous God.
15:35:13 <AnMaster> <oerjan> well the norwegian school system is in constant need of improvement. many people think the main problem is that it has _too_ frequent reforms, so it never gets to settle into something that actually works... <-- sounds like in Sweden
15:36:01 <ais523> AnMaster: is the Swedish government trying to make all schools identical too?
15:36:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure. Yeah it is that bad here...
15:36:18 <oerjan> induction suggests "sounds like almost everywhere", then
15:36:35 <ais523> GregorR: what about the US?
15:36:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I think different political parties in the current government as well as the opposition all pull in different directions
15:37:13 <ais523> that might be different, or might not, depending on how Republican and/or Democratic the school system is
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15:39:23 <AnMaster> ais523, well the current school system is quite left wing ("social democratic" party was the head of the last government) but the current conservative government (to people from US: This means slightly left of your Democrats ;P) wants to change it iirc
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15:40:00 <ais523> schooling's one of the most powerful ways to consolidate your power for future generations
15:40:10 <AnMaster> but if the social democratic party wins again I'm sure they will change it again
15:40:12 <ais523> if you can educate everyone to vote for you, then you can effectively regain your power several years later
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16:01:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: hm, it may seem that those who guessed the mythbusters had got to "good haken"'s dimension were right
16:05:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't usually read the forum
16:05:34 <oerjan> well but do you remember good haken?
16:06:27 <AnMaster> "vaguely" might be a better word
16:07:00 <oerjan> "vaguely" is an excellent word. everyone should use it more often.
16:09:26 <oerjan> you might vaguely recall someone here who occasionally uses that word, though
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18:27:07 <AnMaster> I think python just behaved very strange:
18:27:20 <ais523> it's a plausible way to do modulo
18:27:25 <ais523> in fact, the most consistent one
18:27:30 <AnMaster> ais523, it is quite different from every other language I seen iirc
18:27:52 <ais523> there are three ways to do modulo with negative numbers IIRC, and they're relatively equally common
18:28:17 <AnMaster> ais523, what if I instead wanted the reminder?
18:28:38 <ais523> -3 / 60 = -1, with remainder 37
18:28:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what then is it when it returns -3?
18:29:27 <ais523> well, that's doing the modulo with negative numbers rather than positive
18:29:41 <AnMaster> and iirc that is what C99 does
18:30:43 <oerjan> !haskell ((-3) `mod` 60, (-3) `rem` 60)
18:31:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, that seems exactly opposite of what ais523 said?
18:31:49 <AnMaster> unless that one is printed in reverse order or something
18:32:09 <AnMaster> I would assume rem = reminder?
18:32:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> that is the remainder
18:32:18 <AnMaster> <ais523> -3 / 60 = -1, with remainder 57
18:32:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on whether you think 0 or -1 is the correct answer for -3 / 60
18:32:47 <oerjan> !haskell ((-3) `divMod` 60, (-3) `quotRem` 60)
18:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hm... what is the usual way of rounding...
18:33:44 <ais523> towards even numbers, obviously!
18:34:22 <AnMaster> well that makes zero sense here
18:35:04 <AnMaster> usually integer division for positive integers round towards 0 (or towards -inf if you prefer that), but those work out the same for positive integers
18:35:06 <oerjan> for haskell, div rounds down, quot towards zero iirc
18:35:57 <AnMaster> I mean... no one would round *up* for positive integers
18:36:34 <oerjan> !haskell map (uncurry div) [(-1,-3), (-1,3), (1,-3), (1,3)]
18:37:03 <oerjan> !haskell map (uncurry quot) [(-1,-3), (-1,3), (1,-3), (1,3)]
18:43:09 <fizzie> Scheme (R5RS) has "remainder" and "modulo" separately; for arguments (13, 4), (-13, 4), (13, -4) and (-13, -4) modulo returns 1, 3, -3, -1 and remainder returns 1, -1, 1, -1.
18:44:08 <fizzie> It's made that way so that for any nonzero n1, n2, you have (= n1 (+ (* n2 (quotient n1 n2)) (remainder n1 n2))); quotient rounds towards zero there.
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19:07:43 <AnMaster> question: Silly programming assignment asking about implementing a prime checking function in python, it also specifies that the prime checking function has to make use of the function you wrote just before (which was a function testing if a function is evenly dividable by another)... any idea about a non-naive prime checking function that use it?
19:07:56 <AnMaster> because I find implementing the naive one so... pointless
19:08:04 <ais523> dividing a function by a number is rather tricky
19:08:21 <ais523> hmm... and dividing a function by another is still harder
19:09:25 <oerjan> if they're polynomials it works nicely
19:10:37 <oerjan> in one variable, at least. otherwise i think you need to use that gröbner base stuff which i've never really learned
19:12:19 <AnMaster> why doesn't wikipedia has any sort of "list of algorithms for prime test"
19:12:52 <ais523> AnMaster: the decisions on what are kept and what are deleted went past the sanity threshhold years ago
19:13:15 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean there *was* such a list at some point?
19:14:10 <ais523> the side-effect of deletion discussions being unpredictable is that people don't try to start the article in the first palce
19:14:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primality_test isn't good enought?
19:15:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, well... any answer to my original question (+plus typo correction)
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19:21:04 <ais523> AnMaster: how large are the numbers you'll be tested with?
19:21:27 <ais523> my suggestion for a silly algorithm is to test whether n divides into (n-1) factorial
19:21:46 <ais523> that works, but it's kind of inefficient above single digits
19:22:11 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, why does that work?
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19:22:22 <ais523> you also have to check to see if the number's a perfect square
19:22:36 <ais523> basically, suppose the number has two different factors both greater than 1
19:22:40 <ais523> which all non-square composite numbers do
19:22:46 <ais523> then they'll both be involved in the factorial
19:22:49 <ais523> so the division will work
19:22:55 <ais523> and for the square of a prime, it won't
19:23:17 <oerjan> actually it should work for a square except maybe 4 i think
19:23:26 <oerjan> because you have both n and 2n in there
19:24:07 <xfire35> Hi! I have a question about Turing-complete languages: How do I prove that I have made one?
19:24:08 <AnMaster> ais523, the example of the function used uses 347 as one example for a prime
19:24:10 <ais523> oerjan: oh, good point
19:24:15 <Deewiant> No need to think, 4 doesn't divide 6 :-)
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19:24:20 <AnMaster> which is for this purpose rather large
19:24:24 <ais523> xfire35: normally by writing a compiler from some simple TC language into yours
19:24:30 <ais523> or an interpreter for a simple TC language in yours
19:24:35 <EgoBot> 83786109731741519093102185774271060272617123899294938462545650103958267551816999632384597105781115095746538999305576622259820276406705054815151795675299977497130708316332112015853587961035548260985018324781142346741012571342381443403244375423925845246705116571375322097424190407461087058820073115195230214239315368221366956527807550877343514240476697131078048765701822673835389603217404839039032161799288445236044563772647739851207128764035103255967542618
19:24:43 <ais523> Brainfuck's normally used as the comparison language for that purpose
19:25:05 <AnMaster> I was planning to go naive or more efficient :/
19:25:07 <ais523> e.g. if you write a compiler from brainfuck into your language, then your language is TC
19:25:11 <xfire35> Why does that prove it is Turing-complete though?
19:25:29 <ais523> xfire35: because brainfuck is tc, and your language can do anything that brainfuck can do (due to the compilation)
19:25:33 <AnMaster> (like, check only numbers up to sqrt(n) and check only odd ones)
19:25:34 <ais523> so it must also be at least tc
19:25:58 <oerjan> xfire35: turing-complete is defined as being able to compile any turing machine to your language
19:26:00 <Deewiant> It proves your language can simulate something with power equivalent to that of a universal Turing machine
19:26:21 <ais523> and although you can do the calculation with an actual turing machine, using another language that's already been proven TC works well
19:26:39 <oerjan> however, if you have something else that a turing machine can be compiled into (i.e. something also tc) then you can go via that
19:26:50 <ais523> brainfuck, P'', SK combinatory calculus are all good source languages
19:27:10 <Ilari> Isn't proving that there is transform algorithm from some language and that if the original halts, the result will too enough?
19:27:32 <xfire35> That would be... interesting
19:27:43 <Ilari> xfire35: Is there description somewhere?
19:28:09 <AnMaster> xfire35, what about using BCT? (or has it been mentioned already?)
19:28:12 <ais523> Ilari: you have to prove the other way round too, that if the original doesn't halt, the result won't
19:28:22 <AnMaster> iirc BCT seemed popular for proving TCness recently
19:28:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I was wondering why _you_ of everyone skipped BCT in that list
19:29:00 <ais523> BCT's good if the language you're trying to prove TC doesn't have much in common with other langs
19:29:22 <ais523> e.g. if it doesn't have any sense of numbers, or data and code have a distance restriction between them
19:29:26 <AnMaster> ais523, how was BCT proven TC btw?
19:29:34 <AnMaster> The proof must have been.... interesting
19:29:36 <ais523> AnMaster: via tag systems
19:29:38 <xfire35> Is there another way to prove TC, I have already nearly written one interpreter
19:29:43 <ais523> proving BCT simulates a tag system is pretty simple
19:29:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and how was tag systems proven TC?
19:30:02 <oerjan> xfire35: interpreter for what?
19:30:15 <ais523> xfire35: all TCness proofs can be expressed in terms of being an interpreter for something
19:30:16 <xfire35> The language I am writing. I also did another one a while back
19:30:37 <ais523> just writing an interp for your language isn't enough to prove anything but an upper bound for its class, and you're looking for a lower bound
19:31:04 <AnMaster> xfire35, oh we didn't mean that, of course such an interpreter is very useful too. We meant writing an interpreter _in_ your language, _for_ a known TC language
19:31:09 <ais523> writing a program in your language, or a compiler to your language, are the only ways to prove TCness
19:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, actually, writing an interpreter is enough to prove it "TC or less"
19:31:27 <xfire35> Yeah, I gathered that. It would just be annoying to do so.
19:31:41 <ais523> you can use it to put an upper bound on its class
19:31:42 <AnMaster> ais523, unless you write it in a super-TC languag
19:32:00 <oerjan> xfire35: BCT is super simple though
19:32:04 <ais523> likewise, if you write an interp for something in BackFlip, for instance, you know it's termination-testable
19:32:40 <AnMaster> ais523, how was backflip proven termination-testable?
19:32:51 <ais523> by proving it always terminates
19:33:17 <AnMaster> ais523, also writing a bf interpreter in a language isn't enough to prove said language _exactly_ TC. It would be "TC or more"
19:33:32 <AnMaster> you could write a bf interpreter in banana scheme easily enough
19:33:33 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what "proving something TC" means to me
19:33:41 <Deewiant> "TC or more" and "TC" are the same thing
19:33:46 <ais523> IMO, banana scheme /is/ TC; it can just do more as well
19:34:06 <oerjan> ais523: that would probably be turing-_hard_, by analogy with NP
19:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well... what would you call proving "no less, and no more than TC"
19:34:42 <ais523> np hard means that if it's P, then so are all NP-complete problems, but not vice versa?
19:35:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: TC == can compute every Turing-computable function
19:35:16 <oerjan> np hard means anything in np can be reduced to it, but it's not necessarily in np
19:35:23 <ais523> AnMaster: "TC and computable"
19:35:25 <oerjan> np-complete means it is also in np
19:35:39 <AnMaster> ais523, wait... NP-complete being a subset of P? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
19:36:02 <ais523> AnMaster: if P=NP, then NP-complete is a subset of P
19:36:13 <ais523> if P != NP, then they're disjoint
19:36:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: ais523 is confusing the definition of np-hard/complete with the p vs. np question itself
19:36:25 <ais523> that's sort-of the essence of np-completeness
19:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't that mean that basically every crypto except OTP would be seriously fucked?
19:36:36 <ais523> oerjan: well, yes; although, I think my statements are probably true anyway
19:36:49 <AnMaster> well possibly quantum cryptos too, but don't know enough about them to be sure
19:36:56 <oerjan> well true but imprecise
19:37:10 <Ilari> Don't confuse symmetric and asymmetric crypto.
19:37:27 <oerjan> also, if P != NP, there are things strictly between P and NP-complete
19:37:29 <AnMaster> Ilari, hm, only asymmetric ones would be fucked?
19:37:34 <AnMaster> Ilari, that would be bad enough though
19:38:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, what would that class be?
19:38:29 <ais523> quantum cryptography doesn't care about P=NP; it's based on physical principles, not mathematical ones
19:38:52 <fizzie> There's also a few asymmetric cryptosystems not based on the factorization problem; none of them very widespread or (maybe) quite as well-analyzed as you might want.
19:38:55 <Ilari> At least if quantum computers with large bitness became practical, they would totally fuck most asymmetric algorithms. But would be probably quite hopeless against symmetric stuff like AES-256...
19:39:26 <ais523> oerjan: QBP is probably going to end up between P and NP, isn't it?
19:39:28 <fizzie> Oh, the discussion had went away from the factorization already. Heh. You are so fast.
19:39:34 <ais523> unless, ofc, P = NP, but that seems rather unlikely
19:40:00 <ais523> Ilari: well, grover's algorithm gives you an O(n^2) improvement for any algorithm at all
19:40:04 <oerjan> ais523: probably, but it's not proved even assuming P != NP afaik
19:40:13 <ais523> but it's suspected that for general algorithms, you don't get an improvement better than that
19:40:23 <Ilari> ais523: Yeah. AES-256 is still 2^128 work even with it.
19:40:37 <ais523> oerjan: yep, neither P != QBP nor QBP != NP is known
19:40:57 <oerjan> however there is a proof that if P != NP then you can construct something in an intermediate class. iirc it uses something diagonalization-like
19:42:05 <Ilari> Of course, there may be some weakness in AES that can't be exploited with classical computer but could with quantum computer. But one can say that generic attacks won't cut it.
19:42:57 <oerjan> fizzie: i don't recall we actually went by factorization at all this time ;)
19:43:06 <AnMaster> Ilari, yay my encrypted partition is safe!
19:43:24 <fizzie> Wasn't that what AnMaster's programming assignment all the way up there was about?
19:43:27 <Ilari> I have also heard about some groups which have DDH probably outside BQP (but of course still in NP).
19:43:35 <fizzie> Primality testing, factorization; pretty close.
19:43:47 <oerjan> fizzie: no, just prime testing, also it was an unrelated conversation really
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19:44:15 <oerjan> ok ehird is here, everyone keep silent
19:44:25 <AnMaster> is a for loop in python always "for i in <something you can iterate over>"? Or is there "C-style" for loop too?
19:44:36 <ehird> for i in xrange(1,10)
19:44:37 <AnMaster> ehird, so while loop it is then
19:44:45 <ehird> AnMaster: what are you trying to do?
19:44:45 <AnMaster> or I would run out of memory quickly
19:44:53 <ehird> xrange is a generator
19:44:59 <Deewiant> That's why you use xrange instead of range
19:45:10 <ehird> xrange is a generator
19:45:28 <ehird> in python 3, range = xrange
19:45:31 <ehird> and there's no xrange
19:45:33 <ehird> range itself is a cruft
19:45:49 <Ilari> AnMaster: If you are using that (p - 1)! == -1 (mod p), use modular multiplication... Keeps numbers down.
19:46:02 <ehird> Deewiant: you can do sequence operations on it
19:46:10 <ehird> if you really need a list, list(xrange(...))
19:47:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, well I wasn't going for that one, I don't want bad marks (nor do I want to be held responsible for the teacher getting a heart attack!)
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19:48:13 <ehird> windows sure is vaguely annoying when it breaks
19:48:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: 6th-degree version of AKS? :->
19:48:48 <ehird> Wolfram got six degrees just for writing that awful book and released a special edition for it?
19:49:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, did you see that bit about the assignment specifying that you had to make use of a function that is: f(a,b): return A % B == 0
19:49:21 <AnMaster> (newlines + indention omitted for brevity)
19:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: your uni sucks btw
19:49:33 <ehird> also, "def" omitted too
19:49:37 <ehird> also it's indentation
19:49:43 <ais523> ehird: the problem is to write a Python program that tests a number for primality, using an "is-divisible-by" operation
19:49:53 <Deewiant> ehird: I actually looked it up and indention is also correct
19:49:57 <ais523> and AnMaster's looking for a non-obvious solution
19:50:04 <ehird> ais523: Contrary to popular belief I'm not retarded
19:50:17 <ehird> hey, selection broke
19:50:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it just happens to mean something else
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19:50:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, they mean the same thing.
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19:50:57 <ehird> indention is typographical
19:50:59 <ehird> indentation is code
19:51:03 <ehird> but indention is never used anyway
19:51:18 <AnMaster> ehird, sure is, an indentation in a wall?
19:51:27 <AnMaster> I only ever seen indention in that context :P
19:51:59 <Deewiant> In that context, "indention" is evidently archaic
19:52:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe I only read archaic books then
19:53:33 <ehird> 11:48:18 <Ilari> AnMaster: 6th-degree version of AKS? :->
19:53:35 <ehird> 11:48:48 <ehird> Wolfram got six degrees just for writing that awful book and released a special edition for it?
19:54:16 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't responding to that line as far as I know?
19:55:12 <AnMaster> ehird, also what has wolfram got to do with AKS?
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19:58:43 <ehird> I was replying to ais523 in the past.
20:00:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, iirc that is Andrew File System in the linux kernel
20:01:04 <oerjan> no, it is Acronym Failure Syndrome
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20:01:48 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Andrew
20:02:25 <oerjan> it's a highly revolutionary file system
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21:17:40 <ehird> Huh, apparently John Resig (of jQuery fame) founded #haskell.
21:28:06 <ehird> Was there ever a CRT laptop, I wonder?
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21:33:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> Was there ever a CRT laptop, I wonder? <-- yes I think so. At least it sounds familiar
21:34:00 <ehird> I don't mean like a single-line text display.
21:34:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean more like 5nnx3nnn or so
21:35:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be "nm" not "nnn"
21:36:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, assuming a decent font of course
21:36:34 <AnMaster> any two one digit positive integers
21:36:51 <ehird> 5xx x 3xx would have got that intent across.
21:37:01 <AnMaster> ehird, the x there in the middle confused things
21:37:16 <ehird> Also I'm tragically using Arial due to being too lazy to find a properly hinted Windows Helvetica.
21:44:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:53:28 <ehird> http://core.trac.wordpress.org/changeset/11762
21:53:48 <ehird> The WordPress remote vulnerability bug? Simply omitting the permissions check on all the option pages in the administration interface.
21:53:56 <ehird> The keys are, like, right next to each other.
21:54:31 <ehird> So uh, anyone still using WordPress on a remote server? Relatedly, anyone currently on crack?
21:57:13 <fizzie> Gah, I frigging hate Nokia. Given how much in love they are with Symbian I was pretty sure I could just disqualify all their phones; and then they go and do that N900 thing.
21:57:39 <ehird> fizzie: Touchscreen keyboard, man.
21:58:01 <ehird> fizzie: Really really tiny keyboard, man?
21:58:17 <ehird> Also do all Finns have a weird thing for phones?
21:58:21 <fizzie> At least it's not a really tiny *touchscreen* keyboard.
21:58:37 <fizzie> Anyway, it's pretty close to a cross of their "internet tablet" things and a phone.
21:59:01 <fizzie> It's just that mooz said it's good; how can I really disagree? (He's been playing with a prototype at his mobile-development job.)
21:59:07 <ehird> At least it's not a really tiny touchscreen keyboard that lets you touch pixels by saying the x and then y position into a low-quality bluetooth headset which then compresses it with low-quality windows media audio and runs Vista's speech recognition algorithm on it after adding white noise to the background.
22:00:02 <ehird> fizzie: Also it looks thick.
22:00:39 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
22:00:43 <ehird> fizzie: Anyway, there aren't many apps for maemo atm are there?
22:01:05 <Rugxulo> alright, it's probably cheesy, but here's my latest Befunge abomination / creation: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?p=101447#101447
22:01:22 <Rugxulo> (not very impressive, I admit, but it took a while, so meh)
22:01:26 <fizzie> Not sure; it's just that it feels far more open-wide than, say, Android.
22:01:29 <ehird> My IRC client broke that link at "flatass".
22:01:39 <ehird> So I was trying to figure out what a Flat Ass Embler was for a second.
22:01:55 <Rugxulo> FASM, basically a competitor to NASM
22:02:03 <Rugxulo> although written in itself instead of C
22:02:27 <ehird> fizzie: I hear the Pre's implementation of multitasking is quite good, at least. I dunno, the N900 just doesn't feel very interesting to me.
22:02:31 <ehird> Rugxulo: I know what FASM is.
22:02:36 <ehird> Real men use yasm!
22:02:45 <fizzie> I guess it is pretty thick and otherwise big too, yes; 111 x 60 x 18 mm. On the other hand, I've been carrying the 130 x 70 x 20 mm N-gage around for years now, and it doesn't feel that big any more.
22:03:04 <ehird> Though really real men use an assembler written in Scheme.
22:03:12 <ehird> fizzie: Isn't the N-Gage super-heavy?
22:03:23 <ehird> Bash does not have awesome macros. :|
22:03:40 <Rugxulo> I meant omimplay / shasm is an assembler written in Bash ;-)
22:03:54 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, it's completely horrible. Especially since there's a whole heap of "whoops, we made your phone reboot" bugs in the firmware, which they never bothered to fix.
22:03:58 <ehird> Ah, but a Scheme assembler would expose the operations as Scheme macros.
22:04:02 <fizzie> ehird: Anyway, it came with a toy helicopter.
22:04:04 <ehird> Thus allowing Fun Fun Magic Trickery.
22:04:10 <Rugxulo> hopefully your N-Gage is one of the later models without the battery replacement annoyance and sidetalking
22:04:14 <ehird> fizzie: Oh. That's all right, then.
22:04:29 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I would have said "N-Gage QD" if it were. No, it is not.
22:04:59 <ehird> Anyway, if you want something FREE AS IN RICHARD STALLMAN, try an OpenMoko phone! You can even run Android on them. Downside: they suck. Also no 3G. I don't think they have EDGE either.
22:04:59 * Rugxulo couldn't remember the QD part, was thinking SD or something ...
22:05:26 * Rugxulo sings "Jive Talkin'" with "Side" replacing the "Jive" ;-)
22:05:46 <fizzie> Yes, that's a bit too open. I'm just having trouble resisting a phone that's basically running Debian.
22:05:57 <Rugxulo> at least the N-Gage had some good games, right??
22:05:57 <ehird> fizzie: OpenMoko is basically Debian, too :P
22:06:03 <ehird> Rugxulo: Not really, no :P
22:06:07 <fizzie> Yes, but there's the hardware problem.
22:06:20 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I wouldn't know, it came with a "Tony Hawk's" skater game, which I sold.
22:06:36 <ehird> Tony Hawk skateboarding games are uncannily addictive.
22:06:58 <fizzie> I doubt the N-gage version would've been very good.
22:07:22 <fizzie> Incidentally, my iBook also came with a Tony Hawk game, which didn't work.
22:07:26 <Rugxulo> N-Gage wasn't quite that bad, albeit imperfect, from what I read
22:07:28 <fizzie> That was pretty strange.
22:07:29 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, forget the N900
22:07:33 <ehird> fizzie: It uses a resistive touchscreen
22:08:10 <ehird> Either you really *really* love styluses, really *really* love having your touches dropped, or don't want a resistive touchscreen.
22:08:57 <fizzie> ehird: I'm not sure I'm so touchy-feely person, and in fact I do have a strange fascination for styluses (styli?). Still, it's a bit of a shame; they did put a capacitive screen into that N97 Symbian phone, I think.
22:09:23 <ehird> after using an iphone i could never use a resistive touchscreen
22:09:36 <ehird> fizzie: btw, I'm pretty sure Maemo is designed for touchiness
22:10:36 <fizzie> I think I'm still going to have to find one to improperly touch all around, to see what it's like.
22:10:43 <Rugxulo> I don't get the huge appeal of touch screens, I mean, it's nice but not that crucial, seems more gimmicky than anything
22:11:27 <ais523> touch screens are good for some things, bad for others
22:11:28 <ehird> the UI experience, so to speak, is way different with a touchscreen
22:11:40 <ais523> I wouldn't want to program for a long length of time on one
22:11:46 <ehird> I wouldn't use a phone that doesn't have a touchscreen
22:11:49 <ais523> web browsing, OTOH, might work quite well
22:11:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:11:58 <ehird> ais523: hello 2006
22:12:05 <Rugxulo> ehird, 99% of the phones in the universe never had touch screen capability
22:12:08 <fizzie> I did see someone today doing the iPhone multi-touch map zoom thing, which has always made me smile.
22:12:11 <ais523> ehird: I don't have a phone at all
22:12:20 <ehird> ais523: so you delight in pointing out all the time.
22:12:42 <ais523> different people here live in different years
22:12:46 <ehird> the iphone came out in 2007 w/ touchscreen web browsing
22:12:47 <ais523> ehird lives about 10 years ahead of everyone else
22:12:47 <Rugxulo> omg, itz from teh 2006 !#!
22:12:50 <ehird> so yes, hello 2006
22:13:00 <ehird> ais523: no, i live in 2009
22:13:13 <ehird> from the perspective of someone who lives in <<2009, that's probably true
22:13:21 <Rugxulo> which will be obsolete in four months :->
22:13:43 <ehird> that comment was excitingly context free.
22:16:08 <Rugxulo> so I assume you only use Befunge109 then? :-P
22:16:20 <ais523> befunge109 isn't really finished yet
22:16:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you'd better get a move on, before it becomes Befunge110
22:16:53 <FireFly> But then someone may misinterpret it as binary
22:17:09 <ehird> I wish I had a big red button that I could press to make the air simultaneously slap every single person currently using a strawman argument in the face
22:17:16 <ehird> I would put a heavy book on top of it.
22:17:45 <FireFly> Just place your computer on it and be happy
22:17:47 <ehird> Rugxulo: are you feeling pain? 'cuz I'm pressing it
22:17:49 <Rugxulo> get a Kindle 2, omg, plz, kthxbai
22:17:51 <ais523> Rugxulo: you can't weight things down with computer programs
22:17:57 <ehird> Press, press, press.
22:18:05 <Rugxulo> sure you can ... Fortran punch cards :-)
22:18:09 <ais523> and aren't Kindles capable of deleting the stuff you're reading remotely/
22:18:15 <ehird> That's one fucking heavy punch card.
22:18:22 <ehird> ais523: yes, the Kindle is ridiculously DRMed
22:18:26 <Rugxulo> yes, they did delete (and refund) over 1984, heh
22:18:32 <ehird> the basic idea is great, however
22:18:57 <ais523> ehird: I tend to avoid hardware if the software in it can't easily be replaced and isn't near-perfect
22:19:18 <ehird> ais523: I'm pretty sure you can reflash the Kindle.
22:19:19 <ais523> due to the risk of being obsoleted pretty quckly
22:19:25 <Rugxulo> near-perfect? uh, nothing is perfect (Win7 has SMB 2.0 flaw, BSOD lives!!)
22:19:31 <ehird> ais523: I mean, it gets software updates.
22:19:41 <ais523> Rugxulo: I'd have been pretty surprised if Win7 had been perfect
22:19:52 <Rugxulo> actually, I think somebody got a minimal Ubuntu to run on the Kindle
22:19:54 <ais523> ehird: hmm... is it hardware-locked to only allow signed updates?
22:19:55 <ehird> ais523: except anyone can crash a win 7 machine with an open port
22:20:01 <ehird> due to a bug in the TCP/IP stack
22:20:06 <ais523> ehird: ok, now that's impressive
22:20:12 <ehird> buy a Sony ebook reader or something, they can't do that shit
22:20:17 <ais523> and does that apply to the server version too?
22:20:33 <ais523> if it works on port 80, then Microsoft will be in a load of trouble
22:20:42 <ehird> I Read It On The Internet, So It Must Be True
22:20:52 <Rugxulo> they're too busy "training" Best Buy employees :-)
22:21:05 <ehird> It's such fun raiding the British Telecom offices in virtual reality?
22:21:12 <ais523> ehird: did you see that Reddit story about Apple pulling a C64 emulator app because you could write BASIC programs into it?
22:21:34 <ehird> it's a shit policy, the app store is managed shit
22:21:44 <ehird> and the devs were rejected for it before
22:21:47 <ehird> they just "hid" it very faintly
22:21:53 <ehird> so they shouldn't be surprised
22:22:49 <ehird> the policy is lame, removing it for violating the policy isn't
22:22:59 <ais523> from my point of view, a device that deliberately tries not to be TC (from a user-input point of view) is rather limited
22:23:20 <ehird> ais523: you're on crack.
22:23:27 <ehird> do you not use ATMs?
22:23:28 <ais523> come to think of it, what's to stop people just writing long javascript: URLs into Safari
22:23:35 <ais523> ehird: I do, but I consider them rather limited
22:23:39 <ais523> rather limited != unusable
22:23:48 <ais523> but it reduces the amount of money I'm willing to spend on something
22:23:48 <ehird> and yet other apps which offer unrestricted net access,
22:24:26 <ehird> age limit, rating thing
22:24:56 <ehird> also, the Kindle is incidentally TC
22:25:00 <ais523> I know someone asked the Enigma devs if they were planning to put it on the iPhone
22:25:02 <ehird> as it has a web browser which does javascript
22:25:07 <ehird> you can use it as an ssh client, for instance
22:25:14 <ais523> and they launched into a rant against Apple and the app store policies
22:25:24 <ais523> and how they thought it was illegal to put anything open-source in the app store
22:25:30 <ehird> that's very debatable.
22:25:35 <ais523> at least, under a GPL-style copyleft
22:25:35 <ehird> the FSF think so, but it's probably not.
22:25:38 <ais523> probably not BSD stuff
22:25:49 <ehird> i mean, with an uber-strict literal reading, yes, it's illegal
22:25:53 <ais523> the argument is, that you can't license apple to make binary copies that don't also send source
22:26:06 <ehird> obviously you can embed the source code inside the app :)
22:26:14 <ais523> Apple's terms ban that
22:26:21 <Rugxulo> would Apple ban a Befunge interpreter?
22:26:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: probably.
22:26:29 <FireFly> Wait, you aren't allowed to upload anything which could be used in a TC way to the App store?
22:26:41 <Rugxulo> really? hard to imagine Befunge (-93, at least) of causing any problems
22:26:50 <ehird> but programming, yes
22:26:55 <ehird> Rugxulo: nor C64 BASIC
22:27:00 <ais523> someone on reddit claimed that their lambda-calculus-based game was banned, although I'm not sure whether to believe them
22:27:15 <Rugxulo> so why the heck is Apple so popular then?
22:27:22 <Rugxulo> won't this come back to bite them eventually?
22:27:27 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, it will
22:27:27 <ais523> Rugxulo: well, you'd think so
22:27:32 <ehird> the iPhone's UI is really, really great
22:27:40 <ehird> it's simply the smoothest phone for doing shit with
22:27:57 <ehird> and... most people value that above being able to type BASIC programs on a touchscreen keyboard.
22:27:59 <ais523> ehird: I agree, the UI is relatively impressive
22:28:24 <Rugxulo> call 911, we need iBefunge, stat! ;-)
22:28:25 <ais523> I tend to find myself getting bored of UIs after a few minutes, though
22:28:27 <FireFly> I take it there's no way to install a program locally
22:28:33 <FireFly> Or, well, you have to go via App store?
22:28:42 <ehird> You can do it if you have a developer SDK thingy.
22:28:49 <ehird> But that costs $$$.
22:28:53 <ehird> Well, the SDK is free
22:28:56 <ehird> Putting it on your phone isn't
22:29:00 <ehird> It's something like...
22:29:01 <FireFly> What about jailbreaking it?
22:29:03 <ehird> I forget the figure.
22:29:05 <ehird> Double-digit bucks
22:29:09 <ehird> FireFly: technically illegal.
22:29:14 <ehird> ais523: bored, maybe
22:29:20 <ehird> funnily enough, a UI is meant to be functional, not exciting
22:29:28 <ehird> if you notice it, it's bad
22:29:39 <FireFly> I'll stick to my current phone anyway.. I can call with it, so I'm happy
22:29:48 <ehird> phone is a misnomer
22:30:00 <ehird> the actual telephone-mast calling is basically irrelevant nowadays
22:30:05 <ais523> really, though, what would I do with an iPhone-like device?
22:30:11 <ehird> but "mobile thingy device" isn't a very good term
22:30:17 <ehird> Anyway, I'm one of those crazy people who bought a first-generation iPhone back in 2007 when they cost £72,564 and 81p. Back then they didn't even have apps, you were just meant to use web apps in Safari.
22:30:24 <ehird> But I jailbreaked it.
22:30:29 <ehird> Back then you could jailbreak it just by opening a web page in Safari.
22:30:45 <ais523> ehird: did you leave it jailbroken through upgrades/
22:30:47 <ehird> It'd hang there for about 15 seconds, show a blue progress bar, reboot and bam! You're jailbroken and have an app installer.
22:30:59 <ais523> so did you upgrade and rebreak it?
22:31:03 <ehird> when the App Store came out I didn't bother to rebreak it
22:31:04 <ais523> or just leave it as-is?
22:31:22 <Rugxulo> heh, laziness ... the bane of progress
22:31:34 <FireFly> I should really start programming for the DS some day
22:31:36 <ehird> Jailbreaking my mobile doesn't really advance the world.
22:32:02 <ehird> Anyway, it's a very good alarm clock and portable web browser. Not so much an IRC/IM client, but I haven't really practiced with that touchscreen keyboard much.
22:32:36 <ehird> I wouldn't buy it today, but only because of the app store hoohah.
22:33:10 <ais523> alarm clocks can be obtained more cheaply
22:33:16 <ais523> and I'm horrified at the thought of portable web browsing
22:33:24 <ehird> You might just be a luddite.
22:33:29 <ais523> being on call constantly is bad enough
22:33:33 <ais523> but being online constantly?
22:33:39 <ehird> Um, web browsing is self-initiated.
22:33:42 <ais523> I don't even have an internet connection at my own home
22:33:57 <ehird> You're probably a luddite.
22:34:05 <ais523> ehird: I can just imagine a future where employers insit that everyone has an iphone set to IRC at all the time, or something like that
22:34:05 <ehird> Anyway, the internet is an extension of my mind.
22:34:10 <ehird> Being able to call up Wikipedia at any time is invaluable.
22:34:27 <ehird> ais523: do you also oppose strong AI?
22:34:40 <ehird> after all, Terminator could come true and we'd be plunged into a horrible war with the machines, am I right?
22:34:48 <Rugxulo> Wikipedia is great ... esp. for John Siegenthaler :-))
22:35:18 <ais523> ehird: I think strong AI is unlikely within my lifetime
22:35:32 <ais523> from what I've seen of humankind, it's too fundamentally incompetent to want to develop anything like that
22:35:45 <ehird> ais523: that is not an answer to my question.
22:35:50 <Rugxulo> "I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't let you do that."
22:36:05 <ais523> ehird: I tend not to think too much about things of low probability
22:36:14 <ehird> That's nice. I asked a question of you.
22:36:18 <ais523> in fact, I rarely have opinions at all unless I actually think about a topic deeply
22:36:30 <ais523> and so my answer is, atm I have no opinion, and I don't really want to spend time formulating one
22:37:34 <ehird> what about a use-case I mentioned, looking up information as an extension of my own memory? I suppose that's bad because I'll become stupid and drooling and have to look up every word on Wikipedia to find out what it means, hurr.
22:37:42 <ehird> (re: opposing portable internet)
22:39:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:39:26 <ais523> although, I find I can hardly think when onlilne
22:39:34 <ais523> I can scheme with people when online, e.g. for mafia or nomic
22:39:43 <ais523> but I hardly ever do productive work when I have an internet connection
22:40:11 <ehird> you may have a self-control problem
22:40:24 <ehird> (You may be a bear. You may have wings. There are *so* *many* things you may.)
22:40:29 <ais523> well, when I'm connected to the internet, it's for the purpose of using it
22:41:47 <ehird> I guess I'm likely the only person here young enough to have "grown up" with the internet.
22:42:01 <ehird> I can't even articulate what "using" the internet is. It's not a directed action I make.
22:42:19 <ais523> ehird: if you use the Internet as an extention of your own memory, then by analogy, I can remotely control your mind
22:42:31 <ehird> not if someone reverts you.
22:43:06 <ehird> if your memory doesn't correlate with other ones I'm unlikely to believe it.
22:43:17 <ehird> Anyway, that's the same ol' "lol but anyone can put 'ur a fag' on wikipedia" argument.
22:43:54 <ais523> ehird: I wasn't assuming you'd only be trusting Wikipedia
22:44:08 <ehird> Yes. My list of people who are fags is at least 11.47% longer than the average person's.
22:44:28 <ehird> ais523: basically, you're saying that you're going to get every site on the internet about a given topic to add your lie into them
22:44:39 <ehird> and have this lie correlate with everything else I know
22:44:45 <ehird> if you do that, I commend your initiative
22:44:45 <ais523> ehird: depends on how rare the topic is
22:44:55 <ais523> in particular, I'm thinking about the situation where mine's the only site with some datum you might want to know
22:45:24 <ehird> I might flunk a job interview because I got the wrong C-INTERCAL version number. Oh, the embarrassment.
22:45:44 <ehird> Anyway, if you're the only person who knows you could just lie to me IRL too.
22:45:52 <ehird> The internet doesn't really change that dynamic at all.
22:46:04 <ehird> (Except I'm less likely to trust people on the internet at face value.)
22:47:36 <ais523> what about when the Internet crashes?
22:47:50 <ais523> I'm worried that it'll cause the end of civilisation, nowadays, we're just too dependent on it
22:47:51 <Rugxulo> wow, befunge-mode.el is very slow (probably due to cursor movement over current instruction being executed)
22:47:59 <ais523> and I'm not convinced it's entirely impossible
22:48:10 <Rugxulo> compared to what? dependence on oil? that didn't kill us (yet)
22:48:15 <ehird> ais523: electricity is evil
22:48:20 <ehird> ever been in a power cut?
22:48:27 <ehird> we must immediately stop using electricity, lest it ever go out
22:49:02 <ais523> ehird: it's normally easier to restore, taking out the entire electricity network all over the world would be rather difficult
22:49:19 <ehird> same with the internet; it could be better, sure, and so we can make it better.
22:49:27 <ehird> But yes, sure, I fully expect that an internet coverage outage will be as severe as an electricity outage in the future.
22:50:03 <Rugxulo> only if this "cloud" crap takes off
22:50:57 <ais523> cloud coverage seems like a bad idea
22:51:26 <Rugxulo> and BTW, dunno how old you are (I forget, but I know everyone here is youngish), but the Internet predates us all ... DARPA/ARPANET, 1974 or such ...
22:51:29 <ehird> and while it's a loathsome buzzword, I don't see any problem in storing *some things* on third-party servers, hopefully encrypted and with backups, to access them anywhere
22:51:41 <ehird> Rugxulo: I know that. (I'm 14.)
22:51:50 <Rugxulo> well, we already do some (webmail, pics)
22:51:52 <ehird> But it only really took off in the mid 90s.
22:52:18 <ehird> Yes. I could have my mind corrupted by the negative influences of this channel.
22:52:32 <ais523> third-party servers is fine
22:52:41 <ais523> it's storing data everywhere that's the problem
22:52:45 <ais523> which is how I think the cloud worked
22:52:57 * Rugxulo was enjoying his 486 Sx/25 w/ 4 MB of RAM and 170 MB HD running MS-DOS 6.00 and Win 3.1 and King's Quest 6 when he was 14
22:53:00 <ehird> the cloud is just a buzzword for things like gmail, google docs, ...
22:53:10 <Rugxulo> oh, and 2400 bps for BBSes (soon upgraded, heh)
22:53:14 <ehird> a healthy tip to remember is that buzzwords never mean anything new
22:53:25 <Rugxulo> hard to imagine 2400bps was ever acceptable for anything
22:53:31 <Rugxulo> although same for 486s :-P
22:53:44 <ehird> Rugxulo: I started on Windows 3.1 when I was 3, despite 95 coming out when I was born.
22:54:01 <Rugxulo> now *that* probably corrupted (or scarred) you ;-)
22:54:17 <Rugxulo> "Mommy, why is Bill Gates such a horrible programmer?"
22:54:39 <ehird> Rugxulo: Oh, I already knew that, because I have a distinct memory of removing everything in C:\WINDOWS.
22:54:49 <ehird> I don't need this crap on my system! Oh, look, it crashed again.
22:55:21 <Rugxulo> I swear, it must've been low memory, if we'd had more RAM, we never would've accepted Win 3.x for anything, ever
22:55:46 <ehird> Rugxulo: Windows 3.x isn't old! Stupid people dropping compatibOHWAIT:P
22:56:07 <Rugxulo> I didn't say compatibility should be killed, but Win 3.x was definitely weak
22:56:52 <Rugxulo> DOS is more popular (esp. since Win3x used undocumented tricks, still doesn't really run on FreeDOS although not enough developers miss it, I guess)
22:57:11 <ehird> DOS was pretty bad
22:57:32 <Rugxulo> could've been better, could've been worse
22:57:40 <ehird> programs could shit on each other and it had no proper multitasking
22:57:43 <ehird> I'm gonna go with "bad architecture"
22:57:53 <Rugxulo> "shit on each other" only applies to real mode
22:58:02 <Rugxulo> DR-DOS had multitasking, Desqview also existed, etc. etc.
22:58:04 <ehird> also, I'm pretty sure 386BSD and the like could run on the things DOS could
22:58:14 <ehird> so it's not like a better architecture was impossible due to hardware constraints
22:58:15 <Rugxulo> (one advantage of Win 3.0: multitasking DOS)
22:58:19 <fizzie> Windows 3.0 went completely broken when I DBLSPACE'd my system disk.
22:58:28 <ehird> 3.0? Windows 386 could do that!
22:58:41 <ehird> fizzie: does that... double space text?
22:58:45 <fizzie> Admittedly there was a warning about it somewhere, I just had missed it.
22:58:45 <ais523> ehird: 386 was a win 3.1 feature
22:58:53 <fizzie> It's a on-the-fly disk compression thing.
22:58:55 <Rugxulo> ehird, DOS originally ran on an 8088, 386BSD didn't exist (and needed 386+, duh)
22:59:01 <ehird> the computer in the video is clearly running windows 2
22:59:01 <fizzie> DoubleSpace/DriveSpace.
22:59:08 <ehird> it had overlapping windows, but the old look
22:59:13 <Rugxulo> Win 2.1/386 existed (supposedly, never tried it)
22:59:34 <fizzie> And Windows 3.0 at least does have a "386 Enhanced" mode.
22:59:45 <ehird> Rugxulo: still, you could clearly fit a unix-alike on there
22:59:59 <ehird> BSD isn't exactly the leanest unix imaginable, and the 386 wasn't like five billion times more powerful
23:00:21 <ehird> you probably couldn't do everything the demoscene did with one, though
23:00:28 <ehird> with the overhead and protection
23:01:31 <fizzie> You can run ELKS on a 8088.
23:02:59 <ehird> it's amusing how the latest top of the line x86 supercomputing system of today still, when you turn it on, tells the keyboard to free up its port
23:03:03 <Rugxulo> anyways, Linux originally ran on a 386 w/ 2 MB
23:03:09 <pikhq> ehird: The main problem with DOS is that it made no sense on a machine more powerful than, say, an 8080.
23:03:15 <Rugxulo> nowadays you'd be lucky to run one with 32 MB
23:03:34 <ehird> have you read the linux 0.1 source?
23:03:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: ... Fail.
23:03:36 <ehird> it barely does anything
23:03:47 <Rugxulo> pikhq, it made plenty sense, but Intel chips (286 pmode anyone?) weren't exactly DOS friendly
23:03:48 <ehird> but you're full of shit, Rugxulo :P
23:03:56 <ais523> DOS is more a hardware-communications library than an OS
23:03:56 <ehird> busybox systems run in kilobytes of ram
23:03:59 <pikhq> I can rather easily get you Linux on a 386 w/ 2MB.
23:04:07 <pikhq> Busybox and Linux, and voila.
23:04:21 <pikhq> That may well include the RAMdisk.
23:04:22 <ais523> Rugxulo: you can strip down the kernel
23:04:39 <Rugxulo> I've seen a lot of minimal Linuxes, and none are as minimal as DOS
23:05:05 <Rugxulo> anyways, just for completeness, somebody did fix up Linux 0.1 to work with modern GCC, and he backported Bash 3.2, VIM 7, I think :-)
23:05:21 <pikhq> Well, yeah. DOS is not even an OS, it's a couple of additional interrupt handlers and a bootloader that can be returned to.
23:05:26 <Rugxulo> what would you even DO with only 2 MB of RAM with Linux??
23:05:36 <Rugxulo> maybe with lots of (slow) swap space
23:05:48 <Rugxulo> Nethack, maybe, not sure how much RAM it needs though
23:05:58 <Rugxulo> (won't easily fit on a floppy, I think)
23:06:13 <ehird> you can run a linux 2.6 + busybox system with 1KB<x<10KB of ram
23:06:18 <fizzie> Nethack does need quite a pile of memory; and they dropped the overlay support, I think. Of course with Linux you have swapping.
23:06:21 <FireFly> The DS has extremely little RAM
23:06:26 <Rugxulo> yes, overlay support is dead
23:06:27 <ais523> FireFly: the overlay support's still in the code
23:06:30 <pikhq> There's also GB Linux.
23:06:30 <ais523> that doesn't mean it works, ofc
23:06:35 <Rugxulo> of course, depending on who you ask, so is NetHack :-x
23:06:42 <fizzie> And DSLinux is almost completely useless without an extra memory device.
23:06:49 <ehird> Rugxulo: by that definition, nethack has always been dead
23:06:53 <fizzie> Pretty much anything OOM-dies.
23:06:57 <ehird> also, the DS doesn't have an MMU
23:07:56 <pikhq> fizzie: Except for a few small programs. (I'd imagine Busybox is the largest thing that could possibly run)
23:08:22 <fizzie> Yes, but even the wifi setup apps tend to crash if you run them from a shell script.
23:08:47 <pikhq> Rugxulo: You're not going to be running GCC on anything with sub-128M these days.
23:08:54 <pikhq> GCC is a freaking memory hog.
23:08:58 <fizzie> And the DS does have 4 megs of memory; that's quite a lot!
23:09:02 <Rugxulo> I'm pretty sure GCC can run with 32 MB
23:09:12 <Rugxulo> maybe not for huge sources, but for normal stuff it's okay
23:09:22 <pikhq> Yes, but it won't be compiling anything but exceptionally small programs.
23:09:23 <fizzie> Anyway, there's a ds-native Nethack port which seemed to run just fine, so dslinux is doubly useless. :p
23:09:30 <Rugxulo> C++ is more of a problem than C
23:09:38 <fizzie> (With an extra-memory device I guess dslinux makes for a passable SSH client.)
23:09:47 <Rugxulo> there's a DS port of Crawl:Stone Soup too
23:10:21 <ehird> I'm tempted to fit Linux 2.6 + busybox in 10kiB - 1B on an 8088 now
23:10:44 <ehird> ofc, on an 8-bit microcontroller it's trivial
23:11:31 <Rugxulo> pikhq, I think older GCCs are less bloated than newer ones
23:11:45 <ehird> Rugxulo - making genius deductions since $year
23:12:01 <Rugxulo> no, I mean seriously, they use different backends, less memory needed, etc.
23:12:19 <ehird> newer gccs also optimize better.
23:12:23 <Rugxulo> it's not as obvious as you imply
23:12:48 <Rugxulo> hence some people still use older versions
23:13:30 <Rugxulo> and you can tweak it via --param ggc* blah blah blah (and BinUtils --reduce-memory-overheads)
23:13:32 <ehird> Why? Do they not have the memory?
23:13:44 <Rugxulo> some people prefer the faster compiles
23:13:55 <Rugxulo> with very minimal optimization impact, if any
23:14:09 <Rugxulo> also some ports aren't supported in newer versions
23:14:30 <Rugxulo> or even code that won't compile with 4.x, for instance
23:17:19 <Rugxulo> 4.4.1 is like twice as slow as 3.4.4
23:17:35 <Rugxulo> and it's definitely not twice as good
23:18:00 <Rugxulo> it's complicated, there are a lot of gotchas
23:18:33 <fizzie> "Twice as good" meaning a straight-forward runtime reduction of all compiled programs by half would probably be referred to using the technical term "miracle".
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23:39:19 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ben Olmstead shown his face recently?
23:43:21 -!- Rugxulo has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)").
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23:45:55 <Rugxulo> the reason I ask about Ben is because I found his MTFI interpreter recently, but it's seemingly very rare (only on Wayback, which is annoying)
23:46:12 <Rugxulo> a lot of Befunge sites seem to still be linked to despite not really existing, and Wayback is unreliable at best :-/
23:47:47 -!- ais523_ has joined.
23:49:17 <Rugxulo> BTW, mtve ... u r teh geniuz
23:50:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:53:43 <Rugxulo> what's the diff between Befunge97 and 98?
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00:18:15 <ehird> Speaking of internet outages, the cosmic irony of the universe gave me one.
00:18:27 <ehird> I am not stupid any more! Hooray!
00:18:54 <ehird> 15:39:19 <Rugxulo> BTW, Ben Olmstead shown his face recently?
00:18:56 <ehird> 15:40:57 <Rugxulo> (guess not)
00:18:57 <ehird> last seen early 2009, commenting on the 99 bottles of beer site on a malbolge submission
00:19:05 <ehird> 15:53:43 <Rugxulo> what's the diff between Befunge97 and 98?
00:19:11 <ehird> Befunge97 was weirder, iirc
00:19:16 <ehird> but they're both lost.
00:19:21 <ehird> AnMaster found some dox on them
00:19:30 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
00:19:44 <ehird> haha chatzilla prefixes things with "=-="
00:19:51 <ehird> and the - is below the = slightly
00:19:59 <ehird> so it's peeved that you changed your name, ais523
00:20:13 <ais523> ehird: you're using chatzilla?
00:20:20 <ais523> it strikes me as the sort of program you'd avoid using for UI reasons
00:20:31 <ehird> ais523: it's pretty good on windows, actually
00:20:36 <ehird> although the configuration UI is rather bad
00:20:44 <ehird> also, I don't use it connected to a browser, obviously; that's just stupid
00:20:46 <ais523> ah, I only used it on SunOS
00:21:01 <ehird> never try and use it on OS X after using OS X for any length of time
00:21:14 <ais523> I can guess what would happen
00:21:15 <ehird> it's very upsetting
00:21:36 <ais523> incidentally, what do OSX users do when a typical Windows or Linux user would do pgup, pgdown, home, or end/
00:21:48 <ais523> the chord for them on OSX is basically impossible to reach, worse than just using the mouse
00:22:06 <ehird> Page up, page down, command-left or ctrl-A, command-right or ctrl-E.
00:22:19 <ais523> ah, emacs bindings for home and end, that makes sense
00:22:26 <ais523> and the Mac I was using didn't have page up or page down keys
00:22:27 <ehird> Ctrl-A for the start of the physical line, command-left for visual line (i.e., line wrapping)
00:22:33 <ehird> ais523: what was it?
00:22:34 <ais523> command-left is just impossible for me to press
00:22:42 <ais523> ehird: I'm not sure, I'm not a master of Mac knowledge
00:22:43 <ehird> use the left command key
00:22:47 <ehird> and press left with your right hand
00:22:50 <ais523> it was a borrowed one from someone else's
00:22:53 <ehird> ais523: was it a notebook or a desktop?
00:23:03 <ais523> also, I'm unused to using two hands to chord
00:23:15 <ehird> ais523: was it white, silver or silver and black?
00:23:18 <ais523> I chord with one where possible, so as to move the other hand in place for the next key
00:23:20 <ais523> and I think it was white
00:23:34 <ehird> either a non-first-generation iBook or a MacBook, then
00:23:42 <ehird> ais523: anyway, page up is Fn-up I think
00:23:44 <ehird> and page down fn-down
00:23:47 <ais523> I think the problem is, I had to look at the keyboard to do left command + arrow key
00:23:49 <ehird> also, chording with one hand is unergonomic
00:24:04 <ais523> at least the way I learnt to type
00:24:10 <ehird> dvorak is optimized to only hit one key with one hand at a time
00:24:13 <ais523> say I want to press control-P
00:24:26 <ais523> then neither of my hands can reach, say, y or u without moving, if I use both hands for it
00:24:44 <ehird> ais523: comedy option: they use their trackpad's scrolling ability
00:24:55 <ais523> ehird: that's possibly not a bad idea
00:25:13 <ais523> my laptop has a nonfunctioning trackpad, with the result that I can't use anyone else's without moving the mouse all over the place by mistake
00:25:18 <ais523> because I'm used to resting my hands on it
00:25:22 <ehird> oh, that's a common problem
00:25:29 <ehird> and why the nipple mouse is generally superior
00:25:38 <ais523> yes, but even worse for me because I have little motivation to fix it
00:25:42 <ehird> is the trackpad in the middle or to the left?
00:25:56 <ehird> wow, you have really bad typing posture
00:25:57 <ais523> it's slightly left-of-centre, but only by a centimetre or so
00:26:10 <ais523> and my hands don't stay constant as I type
00:26:20 <ehird> still, they never curve into the middle
00:26:20 <ais523> they move into position for the next few letters
00:26:40 <ais523> ehird: if I rest my left hand on home row, the base of my left thumb is on the middle of the trackpad
00:26:45 <ais523> that isn't curving into the middle at all
00:26:55 <ehird> you must have very small hands
00:27:12 <ais523> no, just an awkwardly-placed trackpad, I think
00:27:22 <ais523> where did you expect my hands to end up?
00:27:29 <ehird> if they seek so far
00:27:39 <ehird> mine do the same thing and yet my arms barely move
00:27:44 <ehird> and this is on a full-sized desktop keyboard
00:27:49 <ais523> they don't seek far; my arms don't move, my wrists hardly do
00:27:51 <ehird> (of course, ignoring the non-main blocks of keys)
00:27:55 <ais523> it's mostly the palm of the hand that moves
00:28:08 <ais523> but that's enough to knock the touchpad, which my thumb is leaning on at the time
00:28:10 <ehird> hmm... moving that without your wrist sounds like you're begging for problems
00:28:24 <ehird> this mental picture keeps getting more and more awkward
00:28:44 <ais523> in order to press the spacebar anywhere sane, the base of the thumb basically has to be on the touchpad
00:28:49 <ais523> with the left hand, at least
00:29:07 <ehird> Speaking of keyboards, I learned that I can type QWERTY in my head, but cannot recall the QWERTY layout.
00:29:28 <ehird> However, I could do this by typing e.g. "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" and noting which positions I go to.
00:29:31 <ais523> ehird: same, more or less
00:29:39 <ehird> At the end, type a different lipogram to check that I have it all right.
00:29:44 <ais523> except that I can recall most of the letters on Qwerty
00:29:53 <ais523> punctuation marks, though, I'd have to mentally type
00:30:08 <ais523> it's also because I've got OK at hunt-and-peck to find keys when I can't physically see the keyboard
00:30:16 <ehird> qwertyuiopasdf and then I stop. Well, hjkl is obvious too, and I know there's some assortment of z, x, c and v on the bottom row, but couldn't be sure about the positions.
00:30:19 <ais523> the idea is to press a key at random, see what comes up, deduce where my hand is as a result
00:30:30 <ais523> obviously, I'm cheating
00:30:33 <ehird> So I'd have to type out g, z, x, c, v, b, n and m
00:30:46 <ehird> ais523: wait, you need to see the keyboard to type?
00:30:55 <ehird> [00:30]<ais523>it's also because I've got OK at hunt-and-peck to find keys when I can't physically see the keyboard
00:30:57 <ais523> I need to see the keyboard to place my hands
00:31:05 <ais523> or feel around for the dedents on f and j
00:31:12 <ehird> sometimes I shift off by one, but I just pick up my hands and put them back.
00:31:17 <ehird> also, those dedents are stupid
00:31:23 <ehird> just annoying for a non-touch typist
00:31:29 <ehird> and for Dvorak users, etc
00:31:36 <ehird> *non-home row typist
00:31:56 <ais523> well, it's good to dedent something to help blind people find the keyboard
00:34:16 <ehird> ais523: what about blind dvorak typists?
00:34:28 <ais523> they should have dedents too, I imagine
00:34:36 <ais523> probably doesn't matter which keys, as long as it's known and consistent
00:34:46 <ehird> blind people aren't stupid
00:34:48 <ais523> although ones nearer the middle would help in finding the dedents in the first place
00:34:51 <ehird> they can feel the edges of the keyboard
00:35:06 <ais523> yep, but that takes time
00:35:17 <ais523> I suppose they wouldn't be using the mouse as much as you advocate, though
00:35:34 <ehird> I'm shocked, shocked, that blind people might have to have a different UI
00:35:37 <ais523> touch-clicking (i.e. without being able to see the mouse pointer) would be almost impossilbe
00:35:39 <ehird> I hereby renounce all pointing devices
00:35:48 <ais523> ehird: sorry, I didn't mean it like that
00:36:11 <ais523> ehird: out of interest, have you ever used a screen reader?
00:36:42 <ehird> incidentally, most of the talk about web accessibility is, while a good principle, not all that useful in practice: first, because screen readers use IE and mess with the result and are Smart (you don't seriously think they're confused by layout tables?), secondly, because blind people have gotten used to all the quirks they hear
00:36:48 <ehird> ais523: no, actually
00:36:50 <ehird> it'd be interesting to
00:37:09 <ehird> ais523: but all the good ones, e.g. JAWS, cost rather unreasonable amounts of mone
00:37:43 <ehird> I wonder how many blind programmers use emacspeak
00:37:44 <ais523> ehird: I agree with web accessibility, but not mainly for the reasons you express
00:37:59 <ais523> it's because it's easier to process the data, which means that it's more likely to be forward compatible
00:38:02 <ehird> ais523: google is also smart - but really, web accessibility comes automatically from good structure
00:38:19 <ais523> e.g. some websites assume a particular screen resolution
00:38:24 <ais523> and we both know that's an incredibly bad idea
00:38:38 <ais523> and the reason is, because it doesn't work at all on things that have screens of different shapes
00:38:46 <ais523> well, loads of other reasons too
00:38:48 <ehird> yes (with the caveat that I'm not going to bother making it look perfect on 800x600 screens)
00:39:16 <ais523> ehird: incidentally, what do you think about the "site provides structure, user provides stylesheet" paradigm?
00:39:19 <ais523> I know it has no chance of taking off now
00:39:26 <ais523> but say it was dominant, rather than what we have atm
00:39:36 <ais523> would you say that it would be better or worse than what we have at present?
00:39:55 <ehird> Users should have the option of tweaking style, but having it solely down to the user misses the fact that presentation is a fundamental part of information (see e.g. Tufte)
00:40:24 <ehird> and so presentation is actually quite vital to information
00:41:59 <ehird> in the end it's all a crapshoot :P
00:42:34 <ehird> people will always optimize for having things be exactly as they want now without consideration for the future as long as our general intellectual characteristics stay the same
00:42:39 <ehird> so how the web turned out was really inevitable
00:42:50 <ais523> well, agreed on that, I think
00:42:56 <ais523> although consideration for the future is how I want thinks now
00:43:00 <ais523> I've been bitten too much...
00:44:09 <ehird> the day when we can tweak our cognitive structures without destroying our memories or the rest of our personality is the day that shit stops... so, not in our natural lifetimes, that's for sure
00:44:14 <ehird> well okay, not for sure, probable
00:44:33 <ehird> (assuming no singularity-type event)
00:44:44 <ais523> people won't want their own cognitive structures tweaked
00:45:17 <ehird> I certainly would.
00:45:32 <ehird> but indeed, there's a chicken-and-egg problem
00:45:50 <ais523> surely, by definition you wouldn't want your own desires changed?
00:46:06 <ehird> I desire to be more rational and less emotional in my decision making, but I'm not.
00:46:22 <ehird> ais523: what about people who want to be smarter?
00:46:26 <ehird> I certainly want to be smarter, but I'm not
00:46:53 <ais523> I'm not convinced that a rationality tweak would do that
00:46:59 <ehird> those were two separate things
00:47:02 <ais523> have you read "The Caves of Steel" by Asimov?
00:47:17 <ehird> alas no; summarise?
00:47:29 <ais523> a robot joins the police force in a nearish-future Earth
00:47:35 <ais523> a strong-AI robot, that is
00:47:57 <ehird> (FWIW, Asimov thought the Three Laws were pretty good, so his competency regarding AI is questionable)
00:48:16 <ais523> it's interesting to see what happened, at least; although I suspect in RL it might turn out rather differently
00:48:33 <ais523> also, I think he saw the Laws as a safety valve that made robots suboptimal but was the only way they'd be accepted
00:48:37 <ais523> rather than something to make them better
00:48:42 <ehird> ais523: oh, that's not the issue
00:48:48 <ehird> the issue is that robots can still do evil with the Three Laws
00:48:53 <ehird> it's not sufficient for Friendliness(TM)
00:49:02 <ais523> basically, the robot jumped to all sorts of conclusions that the human didn't
00:49:16 <ehird> okay... any justification for that happening
00:49:21 <ais523> and the human jumped to other conclusionss as a result of the robot's actions
00:49:25 <ais523> and there were, more or less
00:49:40 <ais523> in the end, the culprit turned out to be their boss
00:49:52 <ais523> the robot wouldn't believe that, so instead spent his time looking for spy beams, etc
00:50:15 <ehird> without any justification for the robot's behavior, I think that argument is monumentally weak...
00:50:26 <ehird> taking the form "robots would do this, QED"
00:50:27 <ais523> there was justification, but I don't think it was massively strong
00:50:32 <ais523> it made for a good story, at least
00:51:01 <ais523> I think the robot was too eager to assume that other people acted rationally, was the main assumption
00:51:07 <ehird> "Like most people, I was initially confused by EMI’s decision to release remastered versions of all 13 albums by the Liverpool pop group Beatles, a 1960s band so obscure that their music is not even available on iTunes." --A.V. Club
00:51:18 <ehird> ais523: well that's a rather obvious flaw in the robot's programming, then!
00:51:39 <ais523> certainly, the conclusion was that the programming wasn't terribly good for the purpose
00:51:57 <ehird> I'm skeptical that such an AI could even be of human intelligence
00:52:02 <ais523> incidentally, there was quite a lot of robots doing evil in the sequel
00:52:14 <ehird> as it could not comprehend the concept of mind-of-a-different-type-than-mine
00:52:25 <ais523> yep, I think it didn't
00:52:30 <ais523> at least, it accepted statements to the fact
00:52:36 <ais523> but it made incorrect assumptions otherwise
00:53:15 <ehird> grr... internet, you're back up, so don't go all unusably slow on me
00:56:40 <ehird> think my DNS is out
00:58:18 <ais523> does it work numerically?
00:58:29 <ehird> no idea, gimme some numerics.
00:58:46 <ais523> that's one of Google's
00:59:17 <ais523> 207.7.108.149 is Esolang
00:59:27 <ehird> ais523: what's opendns.net
00:59:50 <ais523> "64 bytes from mdnh-parking-adult-109.las.marchex.com (66.116.109.44): icmp_seq=1 ttl=236 time=185 ms"
00:59:57 <ais523> I don't think that's the site you mean, though
01:00:51 <ehird> eugh, DNS just came back up
01:01:34 <ais523> hmm... it seems like the Windows remote bluescreen bug has been fixed in Windows 7 RTM (although it is in Windows 7 RC)
01:01:42 <ais523> the idea: send someone a packet, their computer bluescreens
01:02:01 <ehird> uh, we discussed that before
01:02:11 <ais523> you really expect me to remember?
01:02:11 <ehird> ladies 'n gents, it seems opendns didn't help
01:02:17 <ehird> ais523: earlier today, dude
01:02:19 <ais523> I'm in 9 channels at once
01:02:28 <ais523> at least two of which are actually active (not counting this one)
01:02:39 <ehird> oh, that's why AnMaster never seems to have backlog!
01:02:43 <ehird> it's obviously linear
01:02:48 <ehird> and with his >500 channels...
01:03:12 <ehird> (perhaps AnMaster would be best served by a client that joins every single channel on a server, but only shows ones you choose at a given moment...)
01:03:27 <ehird> I doubt he actually reads all of them at the same time...
01:03:49 <ais523> hmm... I think it's rather suspicious that a serious bug turns up in older versions but not the newest, around upgrade time
01:04:08 <ehird> seriously? there's a reason it's a release candidate
01:04:13 <ehird> and they said "don't use it on your main machine"
01:04:20 <ehird> and "don't use it unless you're a technical user"
01:04:23 <ais523> but the bug's in Vista too
01:04:28 <ais523> which certainly didn't have those disclaimers
01:04:39 <ehird> so... let's get this straight
01:04:44 <ais523> OTOH, most people who upgraded to Vista will probably upgrade to 7
01:04:44 <ehird> microsoft left a bluescreen in vista to...
01:04:52 <ehird> make them even more known as the crashy OS?
01:05:03 <ais523> to reveal it when windows 7 came out as an upgrade persuader
01:05:06 <ehird> it makes no sense for microsoft to leave such a bug in windows an update ahead of time
01:05:16 <ehird> ais523: oh come on
01:05:19 <ais523> in some places, Microsoft are running adverts trying to persuade people XP is insecure
01:05:26 <ais523> ok, sorry, I just feel like conspiracy-theorizing
01:05:30 <ais523> I'm not sure what's come over me
01:05:34 <ehird> this is as tenuous as "the govt did 9/11 because glob boog duba"
01:06:04 <ehird> ais523: also, it can be trivially disproved, which is a stupid thing for a conspiracy theory
01:06:08 <ehird> specifically, if microsoft release a patch to vista
01:06:16 <ehird> which they obviously will ASAP
01:06:20 <ais523> oh, I can conspiratorise around that if I need to
01:06:24 <ais523> it won't be very convincing
01:06:32 <ais523> but it'll probably be as convincing as a typical conspiracy theory
01:09:42 <ehird> ais523: ping, do I have a connection?
01:10:53 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
01:14:43 <ehird> god, how come this is so slow?
01:14:53 <ais523> are you being packet-shaped?
01:15:01 <ehird> it was just down before
01:15:06 <ehird> now it's going at something like 1B/hr
01:15:21 <ehird> well, okay, 1B/2min
01:15:26 <ehird> looking at this google page
01:17:22 <ehird> ais523: could you set up a TCP/IP over IRC bridge? this socket still works :P
01:18:08 <ehird> imgur pages still load...
01:18:36 <Ilari> 1B/2min? Aren't bulk transfers done using packets of about 1500 bytes?
01:21:17 <ehird> This google page is just the header and one ad, and its been loading for about 15 minutes.
01:23:25 <ehird> It's mainly Wikipedia and Google.
01:31:12 <Ilari> Something in them is on Clearfeed?
01:32:52 <ehird> Ilari: Oh, don't be silly.
01:32:57 <ehird> My ISP just sucks shit.
01:33:11 <ehird> I mean, it was down just an hour or so prior.
01:41:16 <ehird> I wish it would *consistently* suck.
01:49:38 <ehird> So, anyone come up with something better than Cygwin yet, or will I have to take the plunge?
01:49:48 <ais523> DJGPP exists, but it's worse
01:50:57 <ehird> ais523: I very much get the impression DJGPP is old and DOS oriented
01:51:17 <ais523> it's entirely usable as a command-line unixy system, despite that
01:51:43 <ehird> but does it emulate the POSIX API like Wine does for Windows?
01:51:46 <ehird> that's what cygwin does, and it sucks
01:51:51 <ehird> or does it produce native binaries
01:52:00 <ehird> i.e., is it like a mini-kernel in userspace
01:52:01 <ais523> the bits of it that emulate easily; but it's native binaries it produces
01:52:06 <ehird> or does it just implement POSIX with Windows directly
01:52:13 <ais523> it just doesn't implement things like fork() that can't be done easily in DOS
01:52:15 <ehird> oh, ofc; you can't compile straight bash with djgpp for obvious reasons
01:52:19 <ehird> which makes it unacceptable
01:52:31 <ais523> there's emacs for djgpp
01:52:40 <ehird> someone in here said something about an undocumented windows API call that could be used to do it
01:54:08 <ehird> ais523: my measuring stick is basically "does drive:\foo as a path work without it mapping it itself"
01:54:19 <ehird> because if it does, it's not emulating a unix FS, which is good
01:54:31 <ais523> djgpp translates c:\autoexec.bat to /dev/c/autoexec.bat internally
01:54:39 <ehird> exactly, and that's wrong
01:54:46 <ehird> there shouldn't be a special path system as opposed to windows
01:55:05 <ehird> basically it's the distinction between "these tools, that normally run on unix systems, and use the POSIX API, can run on Windows, because we've implemented the POSIX API" (good)
01:55:22 <ehird> "unix lackeys! have no fear, we've hacked up a library which creates a faux unix environment on top of windows!"
01:56:24 <ehird> cygwin is definitely the latter
01:56:30 <ehird> but mingw has no fork()
01:56:52 <ais523> mingw tries to compile POSIX source into definitely Windows binaries
01:56:58 <ehird> basically, mingw + implementation of fork() using that undocumented syscall + coreutils, bash, etc. = perfect
01:57:09 <ais523> what undocumented syscall?
01:57:21 <ehird> [01:52]<ehird>someone in here said something about an undocumented windows API call that could be used to do it
01:57:23 <ehird> [01:52]<ehird>Deewiant? Azstal?
01:57:25 <ehird> [01:52]<ehird>(fork() natively)
01:57:31 <ehird> I'll try and find it in my history
01:57:56 <ehird> ais523: ZwCreateProcess[Ex]
01:58:10 <ehird> apparently it's how cygwin does fork, ...maybe
01:58:16 <ais523> oh, I thought it would be called something like Bear114
01:58:23 <ehird> i'd try and cite that but my interwebs only likes about 3 sites
01:58:24 <ais523> many of the undocumented syscalls are
01:58:29 <ehird> ais523: well, not syscall per se
01:58:39 <ehird> is that intentionally, like, roaring wood-shitting thing
01:58:47 <ais523> ehird: more like teddy bear
01:58:51 <ehird> or is it Boolean Excess Accumulator Register or something
01:59:08 <ais523> you know the social engineering virus which went around several years ago, telling people to delete a particular critical system file because it was a virus?
01:59:30 <ais523> it's the same bear, apparently
01:59:39 <ehird> incidentally, is it just me or is \WINDOWS really unorganized?
01:59:52 <ehird> the icons are fun, though :)
02:00:00 <ais523> ehird: which version of Windows are you thinking of?
02:00:08 <ais523> IIRC they reorganised it somewhat for Vista
02:00:08 <ehird> well, I'm on xp atm
02:00:16 <ais523> which is a lot saner in terms of command-line use
02:00:17 <ehird> and it has wallpapers in the root, for instance
02:00:45 <ehird> I think I'll try Windows 7 sometime.
02:00:57 <ehird> although it forces cleartype
02:01:02 <ais523> ehird: c:\windows\ was the standard place to save documents in windows 3.1
02:01:10 <ehird> heh, because it was like unix /?
02:01:14 <ehird> and the rest is for dos stuff?
02:01:16 <ais523> at least, all the programs had it as their default path
02:01:26 <ais523> I think it was simpler than that, the programs were all installed there
02:01:27 <ehird> like, c:\windows\ is all your windows files, just like c:\programming\
02:01:33 <ais523> and it defaulted to current directory being the same as the executable
02:01:43 <ais523> and programs used current dir as default save path
02:01:46 <ais523> and the rest is history
02:02:12 <ehird> has anyone else here ever used Windows Me as their main OS? I did for years
02:02:24 <ehird> it really is as terrible as they say.
02:02:39 <ehird> it's an acronym, but it's Me
02:03:20 <ehird> OTOH, my dad at least used to have a once-a-monster Pentium 4 really-tall workstation tower thingy, which he did audio editing on using some old version of Pro Tools (so quite a heavy workload), and it had Me and never crashed
02:03:26 <ehird> so it's probably just very flaky drivers
02:03:33 <ehird> included by default
02:04:15 <ais523> "The Fault Tolerant Heap (FTH) is a subsystem of Windows 7 responsible for monitoring application crashes and autonomously applying mitigations to prevent future crashes on a per application basis. For the vast majority of users, FTH will function with no need for intervention or change on their part."
02:04:36 <ais523> does it mean that it attempts to figure out what the application meant to do in the case of things like null pointer dereference?
02:04:40 <ehird> it's microsoft planning for a false flag military operation, cooperating with the reptilian NWO
02:04:45 <ehird> ais523: probably not.
02:05:00 <ais523> "The Fault Tolerant Heap is another example of the low level efficiency built into the system: FTH automatically corrects memory faults that cause applications to crash which has the pleasant side effect of preventing future crashes. How does FTH work, exactly? What types of memory problems does it address, specifically? How do developers monitor FTH events and can they override FTH's behavior? What does this all mean to
02:05:22 <ais523> even more annoyingly, the article doesn't actually answer that question
02:05:23 <ehird> but then, who uses Windows because of its internals?
02:05:31 <ais523> it just says "You will continue to learn about recoverability in Windows over the coming months here on C9."
02:06:13 <ais523> oh, there's a video, which i haven't seen
02:06:14 <Sgeo> I once had a program on my computer that was supposed to prevent crashes somehow
02:06:31 <ehird> from the people who brought you SoftRam!
02:06:34 <Sgeo> It was a long time ago, and I remember little about it
02:06:47 <ais523> there are two mp4 downloads, one marked "iPod", one marked "PSP"
02:07:51 <ehird> ais523: resolution, etc
02:09:58 <ehird> chrome sure does use quite a lot of memory
02:11:50 <ehird> I wonder why microsoft haven't tried to make cleartype not suck
02:11:55 <ehird> are they all blind?
02:12:32 <ais523> no, they actually like the look, is my guess
02:12:49 <ehird> but that's basically impossible, ClearType is like the worst imaginable implementation of subpixel antialiasing
02:14:32 <ehird> this is unbearable
02:14:39 * ehird considers leeching neighbour's wifi
02:14:45 * ehird looks for WEP networks...
02:15:07 <ehird> meh, only a WPA2 and I don't think I have the password to that one written down in any convenient place.
02:16:47 * Sgeo vaguely imagines taking a lotus coated surface and some silver-food-coloring treated water to school
02:20:13 <ehird> Sgeo: You may want to see a therapist.
02:20:43 <Sgeo> I wouldn't actually do it
02:22:02 <ehird> I meant a therapist for thoughts, Sgeo. You know. They call them "therapists".
02:22:24 <Sgeo> Nothing wrong with thoughts, unless they're suicidal
02:22:52 <Sgeo> Or if I was seriously thinking about doing something reckless or authorities would assume is dangerous
02:23:04 <ehird> Are you being purposefully stupid? I need to determine the best tone of facepalm to use.
02:25:58 <ehird> Well, cygwin.com isn't loading.
02:26:18 <ehird> ais523: do you know the opendns nameserver IPs?
02:27:13 -!- jix has joined.
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02:36:13 <ehird> "In a dramatic reversal of long-term IPv6 stagnation, global IPv6 traffic globally grew more than 1,400% in the last 12 months. Even more remarkable, this growth is due primarily to one application and one ISP."
02:36:22 <ehird> That's an awful lot.
02:36:50 <Sgeo> What application?
02:37:13 <ehird> uTorrent. The ISP is Hurricane Electric (not a consumer ISP).
02:37:16 <ehird> http://asert.arbornetworks.com/2009/09/who-put-the-ipv6-in-my-internet/
02:39:36 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:44:27 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:45:43 <ehird> someone fix my interwebs. :|
02:46:19 <ehird> wow, apparently OpenBSD releases don't even come signed or anything
02:46:33 <ehird> it's secure ... if you trust theo absolutely.
02:57:29 <ehird> ais523: what's google's ip? I don't THINK this is dns, but...
03:01:20 <ehird> loads really quickly
03:03:08 <ehird> OTOH, it's probably just that IP
03:03:15 <ehird> i.e., my DNS is resolving to another one that I can't reach
03:03:27 <ehird> because it happens on every page, and they load; just slowly
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03:52:35 -!- coppro has quit ("reboot").
04:03:32 -!- coppro has joined.
04:16:55 <ehird> ais523: seems the issue is with google.co.uk
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04:26:05 <ais523> how do I interpret that smiley?
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04:26:12 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
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04:27:17 <ehird> anyone want to beam their properly working wifi to the uk?
04:27:31 <Rugxulo> can't, nobody's invented one yet ;-))
04:27:32 <ehird> that would be great. thank
04:27:47 <ehird> Rugxulo: what, working wifi?
04:28:09 * Rugxulo surely doesn't have it, Broadc... (dies before speaking the name of the unspeakable one)
04:29:25 <ehird> I was whoising to find the country
04:29:29 <ehird> though I should have guessed from "Broadcom"
04:32:44 <ehird> it's annoying having an internet connection that only works on some IPs, you see
04:33:00 <ehird> grumble... need to ditch Orange...
04:34:46 <ehird> which is a bad ISP, incidentally.
04:35:35 <ehird> especially as the support consists in its entirety of people who can't speak english reading lines of such stunning insight as "have you tried resetting all the router settings?" (in more dumbed-down words, naturally) from a book
04:36:03 <Rugxulo> don't all ISPs behave the same?
04:36:23 <Rugxulo> dare I ask, what country are you in again? UK?
04:36:27 <ehird> "the connection you're paid to give us is down" "um we'll send an engineer in 74 days" (It goes on 24 hours later) (73 days pass) "well we checked it and it is okay."
04:36:52 <ehird> switching to http://bogons.net/ is the plan...
04:36:57 <Rugxulo> heard today that wireless routers can cause headaches
04:37:09 <ehird> like, problems, or literal headaches?
04:37:13 <ehird> if the latter, that's FUD
04:37:23 <ehird> WiFi is absolutely harmless, and many more things operate on the same band and more powerful than WiFi
04:37:29 <Rugxulo> on figurative headaches, I can agree!!
04:37:37 <ehird> for instance, if WiFi is bad for you, radio has already killed us in a nuclear holocaust
04:38:42 <Rugxulo> I guess it depends on who you ask
04:39:11 <ehird> if you ask crackpots, you can learn very interesting things about the world
04:39:15 <ehird> unfortunately they're all false
04:39:44 <Rugxulo> well, ironically enough all the geniuses are often considered crackpots
04:40:09 <ehird> anyway, Bogons seem good; they do IPv6, they have no transfer limit, they don't cap the raw ADSL stream, they're explicitly targeted at the tech-savvy, and it appears to consist of just two people (or at least, mainly); one of whom worked at the BBC in the early days of the internet and originally registered bbc.co.uk; a quick google search turned up a usenet posting by him linking to some...
04:40:11 <ehird> ...information about ISPs that have Phorm (evil deep-packet-inspection based advertising thing) or something similar to that, anyway, in a thread critical of it.
04:40:29 <ehird> of course it's still the UK, so we're talking the third-world 8mbit speed (only 6mbit at this exchange)
04:40:40 <ehird> Rugxulo: they laughed at newton. they also laughed at bozo the clown
04:41:21 <ehird> both studies and basic logic about the frequencies that have existed before WiFi show that it has no harmful effects
04:41:36 <pikhq> And when I thought the Republicans had run out of shameful things to do: Republican Representative yells at the President mid-sentence in mid-sentence, stating "YOU LIE!"
04:41:50 <Rugxulo> news at 6: coffee is bad for you; news at 10: coffee is good for you
04:41:53 <ehird> "You lie. With your mouth! Lies. Come out of it."
04:42:12 <ehird> Rugxulo: yep; scientific studies, the mainstream news channels.
04:42:14 <ehird> what's the difference?
04:42:32 <ehird> Also, "at this President mid-sentence in mid-sentence"
04:42:41 <ehird> The President is pioneering Xzibit sentence technology.
04:42:53 <ehird> I hear he hired some Russian immigrants to do it.
04:43:03 <ehird> *at the President, not this
04:43:48 * Rugxulo didn't watch the boring speech
04:44:53 <ehird> how's it boring (note: I didn't either, for rather obvious reasons)
04:45:01 <pikhq> Rugxulo: It mostly consisted of "What the Republicans say has less factual basis than claiming the Earth is flat."
04:45:23 <Rugxulo> politics is crazy in America, and I'm not exactly savvy or interested, so ...
04:46:48 <ehird> American politics: Would you like right-wing insanity, or right-wing insanity with a little more fascism and crazy "moral "platforms?
04:46:53 <ehird> *"moral" platforms
04:47:04 <ehird> Because hey, after all, The Other Party(tm) might win.
04:47:18 <pikhq> I'm in the US. I'm kinda forced to care.
04:47:40 <pikhq> Though I'd prefer an honest-to-god progressive.
04:48:00 <ehird> here, you can stop caring now, I'll spoil the long-term for you: it keeps drifting to the right and nothing ever gets done
04:48:15 <pikhq> Except for acts of war.
04:48:25 <pikhq> And threatening to unleash the very fires of hell on someone.
04:48:39 <ehird> isn't that called christianity :P
04:48:47 <ehird> i think the rest of the world has that too
04:49:21 <pikhq> I was referring to nukes.
04:49:28 <ehird> i was referring to joking :|
04:49:44 <pikhq> I wasn't. A large number of Republicans wanted us to nuke Iraq...
04:49:46 * Rugxulo already saw that coming from far away
04:49:59 <ehird> What, nuking Iraq?
04:50:01 <Rugxulo> I'm in the US too, but it's still mind-bogglingly annoying
04:50:19 <ehird> plural? I'm not sure what you're referring to :P
04:51:29 <ehird> well thanks for making me immortal, my desperate urge to find out what you're referring to will keep me from resting in peace
04:53:26 <ais523> pikhq: what made the Republicans think that #esoteric would be any good at nuking Iraq?
04:53:55 <pikhq> ais523: us as in "the US".
04:54:04 <Rugxulo> I'm just confused Obama ain't exactly pulled everyone out of overseas wars
04:54:07 <ehird> ais523 almost certainly knew that and decided to make a "joke" based on it
04:54:19 <ehird> Rugxulo: you mean politicians aren't honest?
04:54:53 <Rugxulo> but it's some kind of twisted loyalty, pretending that somehow Afghanistan is so moral and acceptable and Iraq is some gaping "blood for oil" war
04:55:07 <Rugxulo> maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see a huge difference
04:56:59 <Rugxulo> it's just weird, that's all, "blah blah blah, war bad, Iraq bad, blah blah blah, we want out, blah blah blah (sends 30,000 more to Afghanistan) blah blah blah" ... huh???
04:57:19 <ehird> you mean... politicians... aren't consistent?
04:57:32 <Rugxulo> "our troops are dying for oil, blah blah blah, war bad (people keep signing up, everybody "supports" our troops) blah blah blah"
04:57:56 <Rugxulo> there's. another. meme. that's. quite. popular. that. isn't. so. annoying.
04:58:15 <ehird> yes, but annoyingness is a virtue!
04:59:19 <coppro> ehird: do you use a trackball?
05:00:09 <ehird> coppro: any context to that? But no, I've never used one. I'd like to, but my gut feeling is that my thumb/fingers would be uncomfortable. Also, it has the same release-reposition problem for continued movement as a mouse.
05:00:27 <coppro> I tried one out for the first time today, and it's awesome :)
05:00:36 <coppro> not a big ball you drag your hand across
05:00:53 <ehird> Ball in the middle, ball on your thumb, ball on your fingers (buttons to side)?
05:01:06 <ehird> Surely that's awkward?
05:01:07 <coppro> the release-reposition
05:01:10 <ehird> I mean, my hand is small, sure, but...
05:01:15 <ais523> thumb-ball trackballs are my favourite shape for them
05:01:20 <coppro> *the release-reposition problem isn't that big, since it's only one motion
05:01:28 <coppro> it's akward for all of 20 seconds
05:01:31 <ais523> to move quickly, you generally leave the ball free-spinning as you move back
05:01:36 <ehird> Isn't it harder to position exactly? I mean, these are just my impressions.
05:01:37 <ais523> and precise movement's pretty easy too
05:01:45 <ais523> it's easy to position exactly, and to move quickly
05:01:48 <ais523> but they're different motions
05:01:49 <ehird> I might just buy a trackball, then.
05:01:52 <ais523> so it's hard to do anything in between
05:01:54 <coppro> were I getting a desktop computer, I'd definitely get one
05:01:58 <ehird> coppro: superior or inferior to the nub?
05:02:09 <ais523> also, even optical trackballs seem to get dirty really often
05:02:18 <ehird> ais523: optical trackball?
05:02:20 <coppro> hmm... I don't think I was using it long enough to decide
05:02:21 <ehird> whatever that is, it sounds silly.
05:02:29 <coppro> ehird: where a laser detects movement rather than rollers
05:02:32 <ais523> ehird: that uses optics to sense the ball itself, rather than rollers
05:02:41 <coppro> well, not a laser usually
05:03:40 <ehird> coppro: do you know what model it was?
05:03:52 <coppro> ehird: no clue, though I could find out easily
05:04:13 <ehird> hmm... I've just noticed that my motor movement in my thumb is worse by far than my fingers
05:04:29 <ehird> my fingers are faster, more accurate and easier to move
05:04:37 <ehird> I guess that's why a thumb trackball seems really awkward
05:05:00 <ehird> coppro: anyway, a trackball has the same context switch problem as a mouse
05:06:04 <ehird> which means it's hard to get too excited about, unless I was doing image editing
05:07:30 <coppro> just out of curiosity, do you use vimperator?
05:07:54 <coppro> saw someone using it today also; that was interesting
05:08:12 <ehird> i don't think vim/emacs are really better than current UIs
05:08:38 <Rugxulo> vimperator? is that a Firefox add-on?
05:08:39 <ehird> both suck a lot, and the more WIMPy UIs are more immediately discoverable than vimmy/emacsy ones, so I tend towards the former
05:09:17 <coppro> ah, see, that's the thing
05:09:28 <coppro> it's keyboard browsing
05:09:32 <coppro> which is, tbh, very attractive
05:09:39 <ehird> I am well aware of what it is.
05:09:42 <ehird> I stand by what I said.
05:09:58 <coppro> there's some combination you press and it highlights every link with a number; you type in the number and you visit it
05:10:12 <ehird> Currently, you can either choose an erroneously spatial interface or an undiscoverable, inscrutable keyboard interface.
05:10:28 <ehird> The former is more common and discoverable, so I use them. Both suck.
05:11:04 <Rugxulo> ehird, I know you have tried Emacs recently, and the mouse support isn't exactly lacking
05:11:13 <ehird> I have not tried it recently. I know emacs.
05:11:19 <ehird> I used it because there wasn't really any other option.
05:11:39 <ehird> But if you think I want a mouse-oriented WIMP interface, you're very mistaken.
05:12:13 <Rugxulo> ehird, I don't understand what you prefer then
05:13:08 <Rugxulo> you can't hate both keyboard and mouse and still like computers
05:13:16 <ehird> I did not say keyboard vs mouse.
05:13:23 <Rugxulo> they aren't perfect (by far) but are all we have
05:14:06 <ehird> That's understandable, considering it basically doesn't exist at the moment. But WIMP-style UIs are erroneously spatial, and vim/emacs-style UIs are not discoverable by the same mechanism as which they are used; take a WIMP toolbar: you see the options, and can click them: the way you discover them is the way you operate them: by spatial elements. Plus, they often sacrifice clarity for the...
05:14:08 <ehird> ...sake of saving one or two keystrokes.
05:14:34 <ehird> I have not yet found a perfect solution, but there are ideas in my head I'm toying with.
05:15:30 <coppro> I think it's a tradeoff you can't avoid
05:15:46 <ehird> WIMP UIs aren't discoverable because they're spatial.
05:15:56 <ehird> They're discoverable and operable spatially, sure.
05:16:15 <ehird> But just as you can have a UI operable by means other than spatial, you can have a UI discoverable by other means too.
05:17:33 <ehird> Erroneously spatial explained roughly: In a spatial UI, there's a distance between two buttons, say; there are two choices and neither has more "difficulty" or inherent distance, but one of them is further away from your pointer: the act of mousing to one or the other is inherently unnecessary work, just as a 3D UI is bad because you have to continually move around things to find them.
05:21:35 <ehird> It probably helps to have these thoughts occupy your mind for at least a month if you want to unerstand that.
05:21:53 <ehird> *understand, rather; I am truly a terrible typer on this keyboard.
05:21:59 <ehird> No, ChatZilla. Typer is a word.
05:22:14 <Rugxulo> I bet it accepts "typist" though
05:24:46 <ehird> Fyes, proxably. Bet typist us tou mlch af u rel wurd fouowr mii tou grayc yt wtx usagez.
05:25:03 <ehird> Well that's ridiculously hard to read.
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05:42:18 <ehird> coppro: btw, the numbered links are near-useless
05:42:39 <ehird> as it takes as much time to look at it, recognize the number, and type it as it does to mouse to it and click it
05:43:02 <coppro> yes, but it means you aren't going to a mouse!
05:44:12 <ehird> coppro: yet it saves you no time at all. also, with a nub mouse, there's no mouse context switch time
05:44:15 <ehird> so mousing is faster
05:44:30 <ehird> (clarification: the numbered links are actually a-z0-9)
05:46:11 <bsmntbombdood_> you'd rather use a clit mouse than move your hand over to a real one?
05:47:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: Infinite motion without repositioning, bitch. No wrist strain, bitch.
05:48:08 <ehird> anyway, zero context switch time is hugely important
05:48:18 <ehird> as it means the damn thing actually gets used
05:48:25 <coppro> ehird completely missed the double entendre :(
05:48:36 <coppro> though I guess e's a tad young
05:48:59 <ais523> it was a pretty good double entendre
05:49:02 <ais523> we need a pastebin for that
05:49:36 <ais523> then what was the yikes for?
05:49:45 <ehird> coppro: i'm a bit tired, actually
05:50:16 <ehird> although i generally don't look out for innuendo for whatever reason
05:52:23 <ehird> 14, but seriously, I just don't look for innuendo most of the time
05:52:34 <Rugxulo> he's an old man at heart, and that's all that counts ;-)
05:52:34 <ehird> hey, google loaded fast
05:52:35 <coppro> yes. You're young. Trust me on this.
05:52:37 <ehird> is my plight over?
05:52:48 <ehird> coppro: did you know that if you state something over and over, it makes it true?
05:53:03 <ehird> maybe you're just young for using a playground tactic :)
05:53:39 <coppro> ehird: ah, but the catch is that you're too young to realize it's true
05:54:03 <ehird> coppro: this _is_ an elaborate joke, right? otherwise you're just being incredibly stupid
05:54:24 * Rugxulo thought it was already established that everyone in this channel is quite young
05:54:38 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes, gramps
05:55:01 * Rugxulo makes ehird play with his old Apple IIc for punishment ...
05:55:14 <ehird> now come on, that's a terrible innuendo
05:55:21 <ehird> it doesn't even make any sense
05:57:03 * coppro will be back in 2 or 3 years
05:57:27 <ehird> coppro: umm... bye?
05:57:34 <ehird> that's a rather anticlimatic exit
05:57:50 <coppro> I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently.
05:59:03 <ehird> correlating that with anything said recently either that's a really crappy joke or isn't even intended to be a joke at all.
06:00:56 <ehird> i assume it'll just remain an elusive mystery for all time then
06:03:49 <ehird> is the joke "ha ha, in 2-3 years you will understand the amazing amazingosity of innuendo?" because that's not, you know, a joke, unless you mean the xkcd-style jokes which are perfect jokes except for their lack of humour
06:05:05 <coppro> the joke is largely that you don't get the joke
06:05:33 <ehird> i.e., there is no joke, i.e., it isn't the former, it's the latter
06:06:07 <coppro> it is a joke. However, it's on you, and, what's more, you don't get it.
06:06:16 <coppro> which makes it all the funnier
06:06:42 <ehird> i sure hope my mild bemusement is worth whatever effort it took to cook it up.
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06:12:17 <ehird> coppro: the only joke I could think of is "I'll be back in 2 or 3 years [when you finally understand this joke]"
06:12:26 <ehird> which popped to mind almost immediately after reading it, but I dismissed it as too crap.
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06:13:11 <coppro> hmm... I won't answer that, because no matter what I say, you'll take the answer the wrong way
06:14:03 <ehird> not answering is another form of answer that can be wrongly taken in exactly the same way, so that makes no sense :)
06:15:17 <coppro> nonetheless, if I answer honestly, you'll probably get angry at me because you don't understand it
06:16:02 <ehird> do you live in some kind of warped universe where I'm filled with childlike naivete and bounce around fields of candy floss all day? because your behavior is completely incomprehensible to me.
06:17:32 <ehird> which, I presume, is Yet Another Joke oh the veritable rivers of laughter
06:18:36 <coppro> however, some things can only be learned, not taught
06:18:52 <coppro> (no, I'm not going to elaborate on what those things are)
06:19:03 <ehird> coppro, master of zen and vague bullshit
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06:19:37 <ehird> well that was fun, whereby fun I mean tiring
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06:34:08 <oerjan> <ehird> do you live in some kind of warped universe where I'm filled with childlike naivete and bounce around fields of candy floss all day? because your behavior is completely incomprehensible to me.
06:34:29 <oerjan> if so, could you invite ehird's mirror twin here? should be interesting.
06:34:46 <ehird> i'm not sure such an entity could be described as ehird
06:35:22 <oerjan> ghird naturally, g for good rather than evil
06:35:41 <ehird> depends on your definition of good i guess
06:36:53 <oerjan> of course he shouldn't stay too long. he would probably be destined for a horrible fate: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.TooGoodForThisSinfulEarth
06:37:56 <ehird> i clicked it but my half-working internet connection doesn't work on that particular IP
06:37:59 <ehird> clever internet connection!
06:38:14 <ehird> well, it would work if i waited a few years...
06:39:03 <ehird> oerjan: out of curiosity, do you get his joke?
06:39:37 <ehird> oh, I meant to say: we do have a qdb, ais523
06:40:06 <oerjan> ehird: i didn't find the actual joke yet
06:40:14 <ehird> oerjan: "I'll be back in 2 to 3 years"
06:40:20 <ehird> perhaps with different grammar, I don't recall
06:40:46 * oerjan sees nothing wrong with that sentence's grammar
06:40:46 <ais523> oerjan: <bsmntbombdood_> you'd rather use a clit mouse than move your hand over to a real one?
06:40:49 <ehird> oerjan: be warned that if you don't get it, we'll hear from coppro that you're just too young. too young.
06:40:57 <ehird> that's the one before
06:41:03 <ehird> coppro made that one after
06:41:13 <ehird> [05:57]* copprowill be back in 2 or 3 years
06:41:15 <ehird> [05:57]<ehird>coppro: umm... bye?
06:41:16 <ehird> [05:57]<ehird>that's a rather anticlimatic exit
06:41:18 <ehird> [05:57]<coppro>I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently.
06:41:51 <ehird> (continue similar "too young!" and "it's funny because you're not sure what I mean" for about half an hour)
06:41:58 <oerjan> ehird: well i should be too young, since i aspire to be filled with childlike naivete and bounce around fields of candy floss all day. unfortunately the universe fails to oblige.
06:42:16 <oerjan> *not forgetting to brush my teeth, mind you
06:43:10 <ehird> the only toothpaste is overpowering bubblegum flavor and has sugar in it.
06:43:27 <ehird> the water is Ribena
06:44:36 <oerjan> that is not what i aspire to. you are confusing it with this world's ersatzes.
06:45:17 <ehird> i am merely describing the world in which ehird-the-innocent-14-year-old-oblivious-to-genitalia-and-all-that-entails exists
06:45:22 <ehird> don't shoot the messenger
06:47:59 <Rugxulo> ehird, are you sure your Internet troubles are the ISP and not the wireless?
06:48:20 <ehird> considering it was immediately preceded by my router's connection page showing invalid authentication/ppp failed/etc, yes.
06:48:26 <ehird> also, I'm not on WiFi.
06:48:41 <ehird> unless the ethernet cable is distorting my packets!
06:48:43 <Rugxulo> okay, but you mentioned wanting a good wifi I thought
06:48:44 <ehird> clearly I need a gold-plated one.
06:48:59 <ehird> yes, because running an ethernet cable across continents turns out to be even less practical.
06:49:16 <ehird> the router console is a web page.
06:49:47 <Rugxulo> no, I mean, do you have access to a different OS for test purposes?
06:50:00 <ehird> but I am 99% sure.
06:50:14 <ehird> the interwebs went down, they came back not at all, then they came back mostly but with some IPs being skittish
06:50:16 <Rugxulo> 99% sure of what? router's fault? ISP?
06:50:24 <ehird> then google started working smoothly, then stopped again
06:50:36 <ehird> remember that I've had many bad experiences with this ISP
06:50:51 <ehird> also, it's an Orange Livebox. technically it's just "rented"
06:51:05 <Rugxulo> could be just some old firmware bug, who knows
06:51:31 <ehird> it has all the characteristics of dodgy routing by my ISP
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07:05:44 <Rugxulo> huh ... anyone ever taken a look at Befreak?
07:05:53 <ehird> "Once we move to 37signals Accounts we will be hashing passwords."
07:06:01 <ehird> ^ from the company that brought you Ruby on Rails...
07:13:24 <Rugxulo> the .tar.gz doesn't have BFC like they claim
07:13:32 <Rugxulo> and no docs included either (apparently)
07:13:45 <ehird> nsl.com has a befreak page.
07:13:51 <ehird> though obviously k-oriented
07:13:57 <ehird> also an implementation
07:14:24 <ehird> and k3 for windows to run it is available in nsl.com/misc or somewhere.
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07:17:18 <Rugxulo> K looks more confusing than Befreak!!
07:18:00 <Rugxulo> actually the Forth-ish stack ops ("over", "under") seem appealing
07:18:13 <Rugxulo> maybe I should buckle down and just learn enough Forth to write my own Befunge93 interpreter ;-)
07:20:32 <ehird> K is quite impenetrable at first but is learnable in about an hour.
07:20:57 <ehird> (as in, fully grasping the basic concept and knowledge about most of the operators)
07:21:18 <ehird> it's array based, like APL
07:21:19 <Rugxulo> Backflip, what kind of stupid name is that? ;-)
07:22:53 * Rugxulo doesn't understand the reason for inventing Backflip ...
07:23:15 <ais523> Rugxulo: it was an exercise in how computable those simple rules could be
07:23:26 <Rugxulo> output only as extension??
07:23:32 <ais523> there was a post on esoteric.sange.fi where someone was suggesting adding them to Befunge to provide function-call capability
07:23:39 <ehird> tarpits aren't meant to be useful
07:23:40 <ais523> and I/O has nothing really to do with how a language operates computationally
07:24:01 <ehird> it's about theoretical properties, mathematical beauty and purity, etc
07:24:20 <Rugxulo> okay, just less fun when you can't do as much with it :-/
07:25:58 <ehird> Rugxulo: btw, how the living fuck are you meant to pronounce your name?
07:26:47 <ais523> hmm... Unassignable needs more love
07:26:54 <ais523> it's really fun and challenging to program in
07:27:46 <Rugxulo> I assume you mean my nickname as I haven't told you my real (pronounceable) name :-)
07:28:29 <ehird> you know, I'm pretty sure I don't know of any languages with silent Xs.
07:28:35 <Rugxulo> in (drum roll please) Esperanto, an artificial spoken language older than all of us combined (1887)
07:28:48 <Rugxulo> it's supposed to be "g with circumflex"
07:29:02 <ehird> lojban in your face :)
07:29:42 <Rugxulo> hmmm, that doesn't show up correctly for me
07:30:08 <Rugxulo> (good ol' "esperanto-postfix" in Emacs, heh)
07:30:10 <ais523> I should have recognised the notation
07:30:17 <ais523> eo.wikipedia.org accepts it too
07:30:28 <ehird> esperanto is boring :|
07:30:33 <Rugxulo> it's quite common to use "gx" (although "gh" is more official)
07:30:35 <ais523> yay, my keyboard can type ĝ
07:30:54 <Rugxulo> mine probably could too via Windows input crapola, but I'm too lazy to learn how
07:31:09 <Rugxulo> ehird, do you really know / like lojban?
07:31:20 <Rugxulo> (I mean, speaking of esoteric languages ...)
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07:31:23 <ehird> I like Lojban, unfortunately I don't know it, although I started learning it before
07:31:28 <ehird> I do hope to be fluent in it one day
07:31:47 <ehird> it's exactly like every other natural language, except human-constructed
07:32:19 <Rugxulo> less wonky in the grammar bits (more rigid spelling and pronunciation), that should be a good thing
07:33:22 <Rugxulo> but yeah, if you wanna learn Lojban, you gotta get some reading material, which is probably a lot more scarce than E-o stuff
07:33:39 <ehird> no, there's a wonderful online book about it
07:34:13 <ehird> I was making sentences about how I say that I say that my name is [Elliott Hird, except not perfectly because it isn't totally pronounceable in Lojban] in no time :P
07:34:40 <Rugxulo> presumably your name would be pronounced exactly as you say it normally
07:34:49 <ehird> no, Lojban doesn't have the sounds for that
07:34:50 <Rugxulo> foreign languages usually don't change that except for written purposes
07:35:01 <Rugxulo> Lojban isn't the one talking, you are ;-)
07:35:04 <ehird> lojban has a 1:1 written-said correspondence
07:35:21 <ehird> Rugxulo: you must transliterate your name to use it in a lojban sentence
07:35:25 <ehird> full stop, no exceptions
07:35:36 <ehird> well, there might be a funky quoting thing
07:35:42 <ehird> but that'd just be awkward
07:36:25 <Rugxulo> I'm just saying, I don't think Bill Clinton would call himself "Vilhelmo Klintono" just for linguistic sake
07:36:39 <ehird> so what? it's how lojban works
07:36:51 <ehird> it's simply the language
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07:46:17 <Rugxulo> bah, 99-bottles-of-beer.net Befunge example is weird, seems to never end, even wraps (?) to negative numbers ... that can't be right, can it??
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08:04:11 <fizzie> It does work with cfunge. Well, the downloadable version, anyway.
08:05:54 <fizzie> The inline version seems to have "\0\0" replaced with "{CODE}{CODE}", which is not very good; probably some sort of regexp backreference mishap.
08:06:41 <Rugxulo> the tips on the site said change "{CODE}{CODE}" to "{}{}" which still didn't exactly work like I expected
08:07:33 <fizzie> That's quite a silly tip.
08:08:03 <fizzie> Maybe I should make a better tip.
08:15:33 <fizzie> Heh; when I wrote {CODE} in the comment field, it got substituted with the (broken) program, while the \0s in the comment turned into {FORM_COMMENT}. Impressive.
08:15:50 <fizzie> Fortunately the captcha also didn't work without cookies, so that version didn't get sent.
08:19:10 <Rugxulo> ah well, no big loss I guess
08:19:22 <Rugxulo> P.S. Found a very small (< 1k) Perl version of a Befunge interpreter
08:19:37 <Rugxulo> I know mtve also wrote a small one too, but this one is more compact :-)
08:19:38 <Rugxulo> http://www.foo.be/docs/tpj/issues/vol4_3/tpj0403-0017.html
08:23:02 <Rugxulo> mostly works although "?" may not (dunno)
08:23:17 <Rugxulo> can't tell if the comments are comments or code!! ;-)
08:25:33 <fizzie> Incidentally, the Javascript Befunge-93 at http://www.quirkster.com/js/befunge.html -- which I've used when in some unfriendly place without a Befunge interpreter handy -- makes # an infinite loop when executed from right to left.
08:26:06 <fizzie> It does jump properly left-to-right; I guess it just adds a (1, 0) vector after the normal delta, instead of moving twice.
08:27:28 <Rugxulo> a lot of interpreters obviously aren't very well tested
08:27:53 <Rugxulo> part of that is the fact that most examples are hard to come by (besides the "official" distribution)
08:28:02 <Rugxulo> not a lot of up-to-date Befunge pages
08:28:21 <fizzie> (Okay, in fact it just initializes the '#' command handler as "dir", which is the current-movement-function variable, and obviously gets the initial value stuck in the table.
08:28:56 <Rugxulo> I've been told that Bequnge also incorrectly handles #
08:29:53 <fizzie> That page says it's been tested against the Befunge-93 portion of Mycology; I guess that only does jumps in one direction.
08:30:32 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe you should add a # in some other direction, too; you're supposed to be thorough, aren't you?
08:31:45 <ehird> is there enough space?
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08:33:24 <Rugxulo> and BTW, I can't find any links to "Betty" (although Wikipedia mentions it)
08:34:36 <fizzie> mooz had a rather nice jsbef (peculiarities: it reads a spec about the actual execution using a nifty simplified markup from a text field on the page, so you can do befunge variants trivially), but there's just the archive.org and local copies now.
08:34:51 <fizzie> I probably should ask him about whether I could re-publish it somewhere.
08:36:52 * Rugxulo saw a Silverlight one earlier today, didn't bother, even the author admitted it was buggy, and even he only tested on two samples
08:37:51 <fizzie> http://web.archive.org/web/20060925160700/kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/jsbef/index.html if you want to see the archived copy; I'm not sure it works after archive.org mangling, but the befunge command descriptions in the text field are nicely concise, especially given that those are what's executed.
08:38:01 <fizzie> Hey, I should be at lunch now.
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08:43:51 <Rugxulo> so mycology's mycorand.bf is the only useful part for Befunge93?
08:53:43 <fizzie> mycology.b98 and mycouser.b98 both should work in a Befunge-93 interpreter, as long as it ignores the out-of-the-box (i.e. outside 80x25) text.
08:54:06 <fizzie> You can cut the corresponding squares off them if not.
08:55:45 <fizzie> At least that's what I remember hearing; it's not *my* test suite.
09:07:04 <Deewiant> fizzie: No, I'm supposed to assume that if something works one way it works the other way as well :-P
09:07:48 <Deewiant> It's almost conceivable that + fails if adding 42 and 2 but always otherwise returns the correct result... I can't test /everything/
09:07:55 <Deewiant> I think I have such a disclaimer in the readme
09:08:30 <fizzie> Yes, but there are a lot more integer-pairs than cardinal directions. Still, I do get the point.
09:08:50 <Deewiant> There's not enough room to test all cardinal directions, I think
09:08:57 <fizzie> I'm just sure that someone, somewhere, somehow has implemented [] so that they work in some directions but not all.
09:09:16 <Deewiant> [ and ] are tested using a noncardinal vector
09:09:24 <Deewiant> Which should hopefully guarantee that the cardinals work.
09:09:35 <fizzie> I guess that's reasonable.
09:09:49 <Deewiant> They're probably used for all the cardinals before that anyway.
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09:13:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Mycology's Befunge-93 area does do a _,#! #:< for output at least once
09:14:48 <Deewiant> And when testing # over the edge, it goes west.
09:14:53 <fizzie> Hm; maybe the page was lying, then. Or just used some ancient version.
09:15:08 <Deewiant> # over the edge was there even in ancient versions
09:16:05 <fizzie> Ancient version of the interpreter itself, then.
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09:19:20 <Rugxulo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/You_have_two_cows/18#Befunge
09:20:52 <puzzlet_> it seems like a working code to me
09:21:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: What's crazy is that it doesn't use the >:#,_ print-loop idiom even though it's going eastwards.
09:21:51 <Rugxulo> the whole site (Uncyclopedia) and its explanation of the "two cows" is crazy
09:21:53 <Deewiant> It's not necessarily obvious unless you're experienced
09:22:02 <Rugxulo> plus the "COWBOL" and Visual Basic examples ;-)
09:22:14 <Deewiant> It even puts an explicit 0 instead of relying on empty stack popping
09:23:08 <Deewiant> Because it assumes an OS by necessity
09:23:44 <Rugxulo> well, unless it used libc, but I guess that's silly
09:24:09 <Rugxulo> do read the Visual Basic example, that's by far the funniest ;-)
09:24:26 <fizzie> The N64 and Game Boy assembly examples are funny. They don't exactly make much sense (both just set some sort of external value, GB one even referring to the undeclared num_cows) but the way they do it looks very realistic.
09:24:50 <fizzie> I can easily imagine seeing a ";number of cows can only be modified during vblank" comment in a GB program.
09:25:46 * Rugxulo just saw the Atari Jaguar page ... very funny
09:26:51 <puzzlet_> I don't like the python implementation much
09:27:19 <Rugxulo> "Jaguar was released in the US in 1992 to much fanfare, some trumpetfare and a good amount of bus fare."
09:27:27 <fizzie> And the N64 "use 'sw ..., offset(reg)' even if it does do a signed offset, instead of loading the full 8015F15C value to a register, since it saves an instruction" is also pretty realistic.
09:29:25 <Rugxulo> "To make matters worse, the only programming language that the Atari Jaguar supported was the Brainfuck language borrowed from the Amiga."
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09:35:49 <fizzie> For those who are wondering (which is exactly none of you), the C64 basic entry "10 POKE 808,237" makes the STOP key stop working, so you can't interrupt the cow-printing. (Or at least it won't do what the key would normally do.)
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09:37:32 <Rugxulo> stops stop, eh? ironic ;-)
09:38:18 <fizzie> (Unless the 237 is actually the correct value to point at, but I don't see why anyone should do that. Except maybe to make sure you *can* interrupt it properly, but that doesn't sound very likely.)
09:39:09 <Rugxulo> another gem from Uncyclopedia:
09:39:14 <Rugxulo> "Because Esperanto is not compatible with Electronic devices, most Esperantists have gotten by using the letters h, x, ^, and 卐. So the sentence 'good morning' becomes 'hxx^卐h^ 卐xh^x'."
09:40:49 <Rugxulo> Your Father was a baboon's rump and your mother spent all her time backed up against the wall by sailors!
09:40:49 <Rugxulo> Bonvolu alsendi la pordiston, laŭŝajne estas rano en mia bideo.
09:40:54 <Rugxulo> (nice Red Dwarf reference)
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11:04:40 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/You_have_two_cows/18#Befunge <-- looking at the TI-BASIC further below makes me laugh
11:05:12 * AnMaster wonders if skipping closing parenthesis is actually valid. brb going to test
11:07:05 <AnMaster> find needs some -exec that runs processes concurrently
11:07:26 <fizzie> I am annoyed by the pointlessness of some parts of some of the entries; for example, the SQL one has a "LIMIT 2" completely arbitrarily; it's an aggregate function call, it will never return more than one row.
11:07:44 <AnMaster> even something crude like splitting in roughly two equal sized chunks would be useful
11:08:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would that work?
11:08:58 <Deewiant> Without the xargs, even: find foo | while read -r x; do stuff x &; done
11:09:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would prefer to not start one process per file
11:09:32 <AnMaster> because there are thousands of files to be processes
11:09:43 <Deewiant> This is Linux, processes are cheap
11:09:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not when those will do a lot of work at once
11:10:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I wanted to use both cores, not get OOM
11:10:32 <Deewiant> Well yes, if you're doing something expensive then that's probably not a good idea
11:10:52 <AnMaster> because the processes are quite memory intensive, each one will need a few MB during processing each file
11:11:23 <Deewiant> It's more about time; if they complete in 0.001s it doesn't matter if they need a few MB
11:11:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe 4-5 seconds per file
11:11:57 <fizzie> If it's just a one-shot thing, just do the find, dump results to file, split it in twain, run two instances of your process.
11:12:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, because yes I thought about that
11:12:18 <Deewiant> If it's not a one-shot thing, make a script which does that. :-P
11:12:35 <fizzie> I do have a bit of Perl for that sort of thing, but it's strictly for dispatching processes for our Sun Grid Engine cluster, not a general-purpose thing.
11:12:38 <AnMaster> well maybe I'll write a parallel find wrapper script for find
11:13:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: This is a solved problem, if you want a more permanent solution
11:13:42 <Deewiant> See https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/parallel/ for example
11:13:56 <AnMaster> savannah.nongnu.org uses an invalid security certificate.
11:13:56 <AnMaster> The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is not trusted.
11:13:56 <AnMaster> (Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer)
11:14:30 <fizzie> Ah, it's a cacert cert.
11:15:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah yes seems very useful
11:15:43 <AnMaster> wonder if ubuntu has a package for it
11:16:20 <Deewiant> Arch doesn't seem to, at least
11:17:33 <fizzie> Though xargs does have the -P flag too, like they mention.
11:19:14 <Deewiant> Reading the manpage is always a good thing to do first.
11:19:17 <fizzie> If you don't need the fancy, that just might do it. The parallel page lists all the shortcomings, though.
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12:05:01 <Deewiant> Story on Digg databases hits reddit; people argue against what Digg did; Digg database engineer signs up on reddit, starts flaming and hits negative karma within an hour: http://www.reddit.com/user/philovivero http://digg.com/users/philovivero
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12:07:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, digg databases? what happened?
12:08:14 <Deewiant> Click on the first link and you'll see the story.
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14:30:06 <Deewiant> An amusing quote from the article, btw; "Computing the intersection with a JOIN is much too slow in MySQL, so we have to do it in PHP."
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16:06:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you think they ever heard of "benchmarking"?
16:06:56 <Deewiant> Of course they've heard of it, they benchmarked their PHP to beat their MySQL
16:07:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I have a really hard time to believe that php would be faster than mysql at it. Even though mysql sucks. But so does PHP
16:07:51 <Deewiant> It can easily be faster if the way they're doing the query and/or their DB structure sucks
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16:21:29 * oerjan finds himself humming "summon bigger fish"
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17:10:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh and I thought I mentioned iwc earlier today, seems I misremembered
17:12:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't get iwc today though
17:12:47 <oerjan> even with the annotation?
17:13:18 <HackEgo> * deliver a sharp blow or push :"He knocked the glass clear across the room" \ * rap with the knuckles; "knock on the door" \ * the sound of knocking (as on a door or in an engine or bearing); "the knocking grew louder"
17:13:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, well the issue was the reverse, I understood it was supposed to be a pun on that word, just not what else it was supposed to be like
17:13:39 <AnMaster> what has knock got to do with it?
17:14:05 <AnMaster> those mentioned there at least
17:14:10 <oerjan> i am guessing you are missing the right meaning of knock
17:14:18 <oerjan> which was not listed there
17:15:06 <oerjan> 'find fault with; express criticism of; point out real or perceived flaws; "The paper criticized the new movie"; "Don't knock the food--it's free"'
17:21:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, what on earth has the vlc logo has got to do with that song though? I'm pretty sure that cone thing near the start was the vlc logo
17:25:13 * oerjan cannot make out the lyrics enough to tell if there's anything relevant said at that point
17:26:40 <AnMaster> since I was playing it *in* vlc I first thought vlc failed in some way and was displaying a dummy image or something like that
17:28:23 <oerjan> now it _is_ also a generic road sign...
17:29:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_cone
17:30:31 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes but that specific image of it...
17:30:38 <AnMaster> oerjan, is exactly the vlc logo
17:30:57 <oerjan> yeah but it may still be used for the generic meaning
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19:50:16 <ehird_> 01:24:09 <Rugxulo> do read the Visual Basic example, that's by far the funniest ;-)
19:50:22 <ehird_> I've yet to see anything funny on Uncyclopedia
19:50:26 <ehird_> somehow I doubt this will be the first
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19:59:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ever considered a fingerprint for gettext?
20:01:32 <Deewiant> Given that I can't even remember what gettext is... nope
20:10:18 <Ilari> Deewiant: man 3 gettext
20:10:41 <Deewiant> Ilari: google.com/search?q=gettext
20:27:34 <ehird> gettext is for lazy fornrs!
20:31:29 <fizzie> Yes, "L2SPK enlgz", right?
20:31:52 <fizzie> Is "fornrs" short for "fornicators"?
20:33:27 <ehird> 03:13:59 <AnMaster> meh
20:33:34 <ehird> you know the SSL system is broken anyway?
20:33:51 <ehird> 03:13:56 <AnMaster> savannah.nongnu.org uses an invalid security certificate.
20:33:52 <ehird> 03:13:56 <AnMaster> The certificate is not trusted because the issuer certificate is not trusted.
20:33:54 <ehird> 03:13:56 <AnMaster> (Error code: sec_error_untrusted_issuer)
20:34:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I know it is broken
20:34:07 <ehird> SSL is useful for avoiding eavesdropping; the verification system is shittier than a pile of bricks that are shit.
20:34:17 <AnMaster> ehird, is still irritating when firefox does that however
20:34:40 <ehird> dunno, it's probably in about:config
20:34:56 <ehird> it is possibly the most annoying error page ever though, I agree
20:35:09 <ehird> it takes three clicks and a wait of almost a second to bypass it
20:35:15 <AnMaster> ehird, especially since there are so many clicks to get around it yeah
20:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, also what... you agreed with me?
20:35:33 <ehird> and I have no doubt the people who made it have never read a book on usability, because that shit does *not* make the user comprehend what you're trying to tell them
20:35:41 <AnMaster> the universe is going to end this time
20:35:41 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm the alternate universe ehird.
20:35:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh ok. Nice to meet you
20:35:52 <ehird> i jump around in fields of candy floss all day and am filled with childlike naivete.
20:35:55 <ehird> didn't you get the memo?
20:36:06 <AnMaster> -MemoServ- You have 0 memos (0 new).
20:36:29 <ehird> torernts are unreasonably slow
20:36:44 <ehird> http download: ~800kiB/s
20:36:52 <ehird> torrent: ~150kiB/s
20:37:02 <ehird> this is on a high-popularity torrent too
20:37:14 <AnMaster> ehird, what if everyone was downloading from the same server at the same time? would you get ~800kiB/s then too?
20:37:25 <ehird> AnMaster: yep, see e.g. usenet providers
20:37:27 <fizzie> You can set browser.ssl_override_behavior to 2 from the default 1, in which case it automatically downloads the certificate; that's a bit less clicking involved.
20:37:41 <ehird> it's almost impossible to get a usenet provider to give you much less than your connection speed
20:37:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well assuming a server with good bw. but that costs quite a bit
20:38:20 <ehird> evidently not too much; you can get unlimited download, uncapped, uncensored usenet with a huge number of groups for $15/mo
20:39:25 <AnMaster> well I meant for the server hoster, and yes it would work out if you get customer to pay. But I haven't seen linux distros over usenet. And linux distros over torrent is quite common
20:39:38 <ehird> Of course there are Linux distros on usenet
20:39:39 <AnMaster> often where they can't afford bw
20:39:49 <ehird> Usenet has everything
20:39:55 <AnMaster> ehird, oh really? would be split into thousands of messages for the iso?
20:40:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Modern clients handle that automatically, dood.
20:40:13 <ehird> They show it as one and download them all automatically.
20:40:28 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly I haven't used any modern client then
20:40:33 <fizzie> I think I got some Debian disk image or other such thing torrented several megabytes per second. But I'm not completely certain on this.
20:40:47 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, obviously I mean binary oriented clients.
20:40:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I maxed my connection speed on the gentoo torrents a few times
20:40:57 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, everyone loves the Linux ISOs. Not so much love for the Windows ISOs.
20:41:18 <ehird> Anyone can max out their connection on Ubuntu 17.97 Pooping Porpoise.
20:41:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well if a torrent isn't popular, what do you expect?
20:41:46 <ehird> 1775 seeds, 2537 peers.
20:41:49 <ehird> Yep, it's a ghost down.
20:41:55 <fizzie> Oh, and here's why it doesn't fetch the certificate by default:
20:41:56 <ehird> Nobody downloading this, nosiree.
20:41:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Similar numbers.
20:41:59 <fizzie> "This patch sets a default of 1, meaning that the cert dialog will be
20:41:59 <fizzie> pre-populated with the site's URL, but as Kai mentions in bug 401575, by not
20:41:59 <fizzie> pre-fetching it, we reduce the amount of text the user sees, and remove the
20:41:59 <fizzie> ability to immediately click the override button."
20:42:08 <ehird> Except all the Ubuntu ivory tower people have 100000000000000000000 jiggabit connections :P
20:42:42 <ehird> The problem with SSL is that it's trying to replace human reason in determining whether you can trust something
20:42:48 <ehird> and that will simply never work
20:43:01 * AnMaster notes "falling tree" animation in widelands is broken when you run at 2x normal speed.
20:44:08 <ehird> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8248056.stm
20:44:17 <ehird> I hope they used TCP/IP over carrier pigeon.
20:44:24 <ehird> Otherwise I call for a rematch.
20:45:29 <ehird> ("Sure, the bandwidth is nice, but the latency sucks." // this)
20:45:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know what that is
20:45:53 <ehird> also, they should have made it carry an SSD
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20:45:58 <ehird> I'm sure pigeons can handle 81g :P
20:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a RFC for IP over avian carrier with QoS
20:46:17 <ehird> Have I committed some nerd sin by not knowing that?
20:46:53 <AnMaster> anyway, did they use QoS or not ;P
20:47:07 <Ilari> Also, SSL has global namespace.
20:47:09 <ehird> They used a USB memory stick.
20:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, -_- You don't know what QoS is?
20:47:41 <ehird> I know what QoS stands for.
20:49:56 <Ilari> Global namespace is not good for trustworthiness determination.
20:51:46 <Ilari> mountainamerica.com? What the heck is that? Etc...
20:52:00 <ehird> A squatter page :P
20:52:14 <ehird> Anyway, DNS really needs distributing. Fuck the root servers.
20:52:24 <Ilari> More like phishing page (I don't recall what the exect name was).
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21:32:48 <fizzie> Oh, and speaking of the traffic cone, it's not exactly the VLC logo image. For one thing, in the video there's a dark ellipse on top of the cone; that's not in the VLC logo. And the VLC logo has a bit of reflections going on in there. (Admittedly it could be an older VLC logo, since it's so very similar. But it's not the same image that's in icon and about-box of the current VLC versions.)
21:33:49 <ehird> 04:05:01 <Deewiant> Story on Digg databases hits reddit; people argue against what Digg did; Digg database engineer signs up on reddit, starts flaming and hits negative karma within an hour: http://www.reddit.com/user/philovivero http://digg.com/users/philovivero
21:36:46 <ehird> 06:30:06 <Deewiant> An amusing quote from the article, btw; "Computing the intersection with a JOIN is much too slow in MySQL, so we have to do it in PHP."
21:48:56 <GregorR> Maybe they're doing a full cartesian join :P
21:49:58 <pikhq> That... Is quite retarded.
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01:29:26 <augur> omg i have internet! :o
01:44:00 <puzzlet> someone's got the internet
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02:26:05 * Sgeo is not used to random insults from ehird. Insults, yes, but usually related to me doing or asking something dumb
02:26:19 <ehird> you fail at pronunciation puns
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02:26:36 <Sgeo> It's a punsult
02:27:04 <ehird> Punsult. Really now. You have sunken to a new low. :P
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02:58:16 <Sgeo> I have a horrible singing voice
02:58:32 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't try to sound androgenous, that might help
03:00:04 <Sgeo> Also, my screaming probably isn't helping. I'll omit it
03:02:53 <Sgeo> No, vixy, YouTube is not, in fact, down
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03:22:31 <ehird> [02:58]<Sgeo>I have a horrible singing voice
03:22:33 <ehird> [02:58]<Sgeo>Maybe I shouldn't try to sound androgenous, that might help
03:22:35 <ehird> [03:00]<Sgeo>Also, my screaming probably isn't helping. I'll omit it
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03:23:47 <Sgeo_> Anyone want to hear my horrible singing voice?
03:23:59 <ehird> NOT IF IT INVOLVED SCREAMING AT ANY POINT IN THE PROCESS.
03:24:20 <Sgeo_> Your screaming at my singing, or my singing? I don't scream in this
03:25:01 <ehird> Only because you omitted it. I AM NOT A FAN OF THINGS WITH SCREAMING EVEN IF THE ACTUAL SCREAMING HAS BEEN OMITTED.
03:25:55 <Sgeo_> The screaming was artificially added. If you can tolerate Paint it Black, you can tolerate this, unless you can't tolerate bad singers
03:27:07 <ehird> THAT IS EVEN WORSE.
03:27:17 <ehird> I don't even want to know what you were doing or what your goal is but I cam convinced that it is almost certainly the work of a particularly insane Satan and want no part in it. ESPECIALLY IF YOU OMITTED SCREAMING AND THEN ADDED IT ARTIFICIALLY.
03:29:57 <ehird> Sgeo_: you removed the artificial screaming and added real ones?
03:30:04 <ehird> WHY MUST YOU CONTINUALLY MAKE IT WORSE AND WORSE
03:30:40 <Sgeo_> The screaming wasn't a part of the song that this was based on. The new lyrics calls for anguished cries. I did that, but then cut that part out when I tried recording it again
03:30:58 <ehird> THIS SOUNDS INCOMPREHENSIBLY AWFUL
03:31:03 <ehird> CTHULHU HAS NOTHING ON THIS
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04:17:00 <ehird> Cygwin's fork does the obvious, which is "create new process of me, munge a setjmp thingy into it, make it longjmp to here".
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08:00:35 <oerjan> <ehird> Punsult. Really now. You have sunken to a new low. :P
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08:01:00 <oerjan> it's ok, he just needs some coaching by a professional punsultant.
08:05:33 <Sgeo_> I'd laugh, but I'm 3/4ths asleep
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09:06:44 <ehird> Windows 7 is... upsettingly good...
09:07:35 <ehird> I'm actually upset that it's good, that wasn't an exaggeration.
09:08:38 <ehird> At least I can't get audio to work. Otherwise I might die of ... upsettedness.
09:08:52 <ehird> WHICH IS TOTALLY A REAL CONDITION
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17:01:32 <oerjan> well, a couple of them anyhow
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19:55:15 <Ilari> Any "design by comittee" esolangs. Preferably comitee with 8 or >20 members... :-)
19:55:57 <Sgeo> Reminds me of ABCDEF
19:56:10 <oerjan> we never finished that one
19:57:08 <oerjan> i wonder if funge98 qualifies
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19:57:40 <pikhq> There is such a thing as good design by commitee.
19:58:54 <oerjan> haskell is only an honorary esolang though
19:58:55 <Ilari> That's why I said that preferably 8 or >20 members...
19:59:18 <Deewiant> Although maybe not quite >20 :-P
20:00:15 <pikhq> oerjan: I didn't cite it as an example of esolang design by comittee.
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20:01:47 <Deewiant> I'm amused by how three different people used the word "committee" but none spelled it correctly
20:02:02 <Deewiant> And each spelled it differently
20:02:25 <pikhq> Deewiant: I spelt it differently each time I used it, too.
20:02:54 <Deewiant> Darn, I read your latter statement as being by oerjan
20:02:55 * oerjan checks and notes he didn't actually use the word
20:04:27 <Deewiant> Well, it wasn't that amusing then
20:04:51 <Deewiant> Since it was only two people after all
20:06:09 <Ilari> Hmm... Are there trinary 2-operand universal logic operators (like binary has NAND and NOR)?
20:07:23 <impomatic> Don't NAND and NOR also work with 3-operands?
20:07:37 <Deewiant> But for trinary, not binary numbers
20:08:42 <coppro> impomatic: look at ais523's C-INTERCAL docs
20:10:50 * oerjan wonders if malbolge's crazy operation is universal
20:11:07 <fizzie> "Design by commitee" means an anarchistic system where each version-control commit has completely independent ideas about design.
20:12:02 <coppro> nice try, but that is hardly right - that's open-source
20:12:23 <coppro> design by committee is like that, except commits have to be voted in
20:13:30 <impomatic> ANS'94 Forth was designed by Committee and it concentrated on all the wrong things.
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20:19:02 <oerjan> oh, you cannot get 2 without starting with it
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20:20:48 <Ilari> 3-element permutation group has no generators. It has 1 element of order 1, 3 elements of order 2 and 2 elements of order 3.
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20:21:53 <oerjan> is that supposed to be relevant to the operand question?
20:22:03 <Ilari> Thus, there is no 1-input operand which is universal for 1-input trinary expressions (binary has NOT).
20:23:11 <Ilari> Hmm... Is maximum together with universal 1-input manipulation universal in trinary logic...
20:23:21 <oerjan> you are forgetting the constant functions
20:25:22 <oerjan> you can construct if-then-else with it
20:26:54 <Ilari> Hmm... INV(MAX(INV(A), INV(B)) = MIN(A, B).
20:27:30 <oerjan> if x=const then y else z is max(min(y, if x=const then 2 else 0), min(z, if x=const then 0 else 2))
20:27:50 <oerjan> (the inner if's are just 1-input functions)
20:29:21 <oerjan> and given if-then-else you can branch arbitrarily on the value of a variable
20:30:52 <Ilari> And with minimum, one needs only to be able to construct arbitiary logic function with one nonzero. And such can be constructed by manipulating inputs to be of wanted value only at that point (zero elsewhere), passing through MAX.
20:31:23 <Ilari> Thus, universal 1-input manipulation and MAX is universal set.
20:31:24 * oerjan thought that was what he just did
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20:32:16 <ehird> 11:41:46 <impomatic> Hi :-)
20:32:32 <ehird> i had a dream involving you, also other #esotericers but they were just j random #esotericer
20:32:57 <oerjan> i'm an anagram of j random. almost.
20:33:19 <ehird> almost anagrams are the best type of anagram
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20:34:01 <ehird> I wonder if I should try mIRC + one of those things that retheme the IRC window text
20:34:06 <ehird> maybe they can make it behave more normally
20:34:11 <ehird> i.e., not fucked up copy/paste behaviour
20:34:22 <oerjan> it's like with puns, worst = best
20:35:04 <ehird> also, windows 7 really is quite wonderful.
20:35:16 <ehird> I may have a fever
20:36:02 <ehird> 12:11:07 <fizzie> "Design by commitee" means an anarchistic system where each version-control commit has completely independent ideas about design.
20:36:03 <oerjan> it's just a small nanobot infestation in your brain. resistance is futile.
20:36:04 <ehird> 12:12:02 <coppro> nice try, but that is hardly right - that's open-source
20:36:31 <ehird> the best open software is either made by an individual or three, or a tightly-focused group with the same goals
20:37:06 <ehird> linux is an edge-case, it's basically the latter (everyone with commit access), just they steal all their commits
20:37:15 <ehird> also, linux has so many modules that it's basically a bunch of seperate software
20:39:15 <ehird> hmm... I wonder why Windows 7 still makes the default user an administrator...
20:39:21 <ehird> though I guess UAC mitigates it
20:44:25 <ehird> well, i don't remember seeing any people per se, but metaphysically, i think so
20:44:31 <ehird> it's not as if it made any sense or anything
20:46:05 <ehird> hmm, IE 8 expands tabs in the taskbar switcher thing as if they were windows ... i miss that in chrome
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20:58:00 <ehird> It is proved that for the Dual-Pivot Quicksort the average number of comparisons is 2*n*ln(n), the average number of swaps is 0.8*n*ln(n), whereas classical Quicksort algorithm has 2*n*ln(n) and 1*n*ln(n) respectively.
20:58:03 <ehird> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.openjdk.core-libs.devel/2628
21:06:20 <ehird> I wonder if I could make some changes to cygwin's fork.cc to port it to MinGW
21:06:35 <ehird> does anyone know if MinGW implements the bits of POSIX that matters apart from fork()? like, does it do mmap()?
21:07:52 <Deewiant> MinGW isn't a POSIX platform, it's essentially just GCC for Windows
21:08:52 <ehird> Deewiant: ah, so it just uses the libc stuff that windows has?
21:09:05 <Deewiant> Meaning that it doesn't support C99, for instance.
21:09:06 <ehird> I'm fairly sure that includes a good portion of POSIX though, no?
21:10:09 <ehird> It'd be nice to have a cygwin-like thing without all the underlying baggage...
21:11:16 <ehird> The fact that it has its own process table. The fact that it has its own filesystem layer. I could go on.
21:11:51 <Deewiant> You can just build an app against the cygwin headers and use that without the baggage
21:12:13 <ehird> Um, what? That won't actually, you know, link.
21:12:24 <ehird> Because the functions use those elements of baggage, see.
21:12:31 <ehird> So you can't call them if you don't want the bagage.
21:12:51 <Deewiant> Well sure, the baggage is there, but you can't see it unless you know to look
21:13:22 <Deewiant> Of course you need to link it to the cygwin stuff as well
21:13:26 <ehird> Congratulations, your solution to the baggage, which adds dependencies, is unneeded, hinders nativeness and slows down the Cygwin system (it's dog slow) is... don't look at it!
21:13:29 <Deewiant> You can't implement fork() in only a .h :-P
21:13:38 <Deewiant> Or I guess you could but anyway
21:13:52 <ehird> You can implement fork() without your own process table, filesystem layer, ...
21:14:40 <Deewiant> My point is that sure, it'd be nice to have a system without it, but I don't think it's that bad
21:14:48 <ehird> That'd explain why reddit is all, you know
21:14:49 <Deewiant> fork() is dog slow on Windows by default
21:15:04 <Ilari> Does Windows even support it natively?
21:15:08 <ehird> No, but you can implement it
21:15:24 <ehird> Cygwin's fork() isn't copy-on-write; I don't think that's neccessary.
21:15:53 <ehird> I mean, I don't think it's neccessary to have no copy on write on Windows
21:16:04 <ehird> Also, it's definitely important for speed
21:16:09 <ehird> fork() being expensive kills unix
21:16:18 <Deewiant> I said it probably wouldn't help much
21:16:32 <Deewiant> Spawning processes on Windows is expensive whether you do some fork() stuff on top or not
21:16:35 <ehird> Maybe you could do fork() with a thread and some asm hackery.
21:16:43 <Deewiant> Cheapening the fork() stuff won't help much, probably
21:16:58 <ehird> Cygwin gets disturbingly slow on long shell scripts
21:17:00 <ehird> because fork() is so shit
21:17:43 <ehird> Someone make an LD_PRELOAD type thingy that replaces the process spawning stuff with something fast :-P
21:18:03 <Deewiant> If currently we have 0.1s to spawn a process + 0.1s to copy the memory image of another, turning the latter into 0.01s means it's still dog slow
21:18:41 <ehird> Thank god it isn't 0.1s :P
21:18:51 <ehird> Well, I hope not at least
21:19:14 <ehird> The final AACS License agreements also include provisions to phase out the use of analog output in Blu-ray players. It says that all Blu-ray players manufactured after December 31, 2010 must limit the analog output to SD resolution. After December 31, 2013, no device that can decrypt AACS content can have any analog outputs. The intent of this is to limit casual piracy and has no effect on how you author your Blu-ray discs.
21:19:33 <ehird> Blu-ray sure is doing well innit
21:23:19 <Sgeo> Unless by analog they mean "can be seen by humans and cameras", I don't quite understand the point
21:26:17 <ehird> Because the digital output has DRM.
21:26:25 <ehird> and using a camcorder results in very bad quality
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21:37:03 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that thinkpad was a T46p.
21:37:24 <ehird> Impressive. Well, I don't need to worry about battery.
21:37:30 <pikhq> ehird: You could check out Interix.
21:37:39 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
21:37:41 <ehird> That's discrete graphics.
21:37:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what does the p stand for
21:37:57 <Sgeo> Can't anyone just make their own Blu-Ray player that doesn't have those restrictions?
21:38:02 <ehird> Sgeo: That's illegal.
21:38:09 <ehird> also, you'd have to reverse-engineer the DRM
21:38:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that guy owned three thinkpads XD
21:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, he had another with him today
21:38:30 <ehird> Deewiant: for a limited period of time. unless you're in china
21:38:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I wonder why.
21:38:43 <ehird> The T43p not portable enough for using all the time?
21:38:52 <ehird> Guess that 12-cell weighs a lot, or the UltraBay battery.
21:39:02 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yeah his forth computer was a netbook
21:39:05 <Deewiant> It might not be wise, but they're no less possible than legal things.
21:39:09 <AnMaster> so three notebooks and one netbook
21:39:26 <ehird> A netbook is stupid if you already have a notebook with a long battery life.
21:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is a lot less heavy
21:39:49 <ehird> A lightweight notebook, then.
21:39:57 <ehird> The UltraBay battery seems to be 235g.
21:40:01 <AnMaster> ehird, a netbook will probably get more battery time
21:40:09 <ehird> Who needs over 14 hours?
21:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and is there a T46p too?
21:40:22 <ehird> There's a p for every T.
21:40:32 <AnMaster> I think the one he had today was 46 but not completely sure
21:40:36 <ehird> Well, every recent one.
21:40:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, you said T46p before
21:41:02 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, he had a T42 today
21:41:26 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T43p
21:41:27 <AnMaster> I'm bad at remembering numbers
21:41:31 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T42
21:41:59 <AnMaster> ehird, and that is the one he had today
21:42:15 <AnMaster> so... T43p was the long battery one, the T42 the one he had today
21:42:43 <ehird> Anyway, I guess I should try and get a Core 2 T60p, stick an UltraBay battery and an SSD in there, and upgrade the RAM to the max.
21:42:57 <ehird> But the T60p looks quite thick: compare:
21:43:09 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/1/1c/ThinkpadT43P.JPG
21:43:12 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/8/8e/ThinkPadT60.jpg
21:43:14 <ehird> Probably just perspective, but eh.
21:43:19 <ehird> At least it has the IBM logo on it.
21:43:27 <ehird> (Also, what is that thing sticking out the side?)
21:43:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I was going to ask you that
21:44:06 <ehird> http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/3331-1.jpg It's not in this photo.
21:44:16 <AnMaster> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/8/8e/ThinkPadT60.jpg <-- very blue compared to the neutral grey in http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/1/1c/ThinkpadT43P.JPG
21:44:22 <ehird> (And it looks very nice in that photo, although a bit high dpi. I don't think I can read that text.)
21:44:32 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a Lenovo-supplied photo, but true.
21:44:48 <ehird> The 14" T60p is only available in 1400x1050 in the 14" version, it seems.
21:45:09 <ehird> The extra pixels are nice, but using Windows would be a bitch; it hates everything above 96dpi.
21:45:13 <ehird> Or rather, programs break if you set it higher.
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you WANTED high dpi?
21:45:35 <ehird> Hell, I do, for Linux, where it'll work swimmingly.
21:45:45 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't get both in one laptop
21:45:50 <ehird> But look at the icons on http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/3331-1.jpg
21:45:56 <ehird> Could you read their tet?
21:46:15 <AnMaster> hard to tell from the photo size. How large is the screen?
21:46:21 <Deewiant> The top one says "Recycle Bin"
21:46:25 <AnMaster> to get any sort of perspective
21:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see why not, if I'm sitting in front of it
21:46:54 <AnMaster> compared to a down scaled photo of it
21:47:03 <ehird> But the text is like a mm on screen.
21:47:05 <ehird> Ugh, the T60p is heavy: 2.65kg.
21:47:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one below ways Internet Explorer
21:47:11 <ehird> I guess that graphics card weighs, huh.
21:47:36 <Deewiant> The one after that is "My Network Places"
21:47:47 <ehird> Unfortunately *old* integrated graphics is useless for anything.
21:47:53 <ehird> So I can't really go for a non-p model.
21:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 12 cell battery + battery in ultrabay will last a bit for light work. Consider that during idle I can get my R500 down to ~8.5W, (12-13 W if connected to busy wlan, like at uni)
21:48:46 <ehird> I'd likely go for a 6-cell + ultrabay.
21:48:57 <AnMaster> ehird, is 6 cell the standard?
21:48:57 <ehird> 6 cell might get, like, 4 hours less than a 12-cell, AT THE VERY WORST
21:49:06 <ehird> so I'll get, like, 10 hours
21:49:12 <Deewiant> I have a default 6-cell on an R60 and it lasts for 2 hours at best
21:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it lifts the back up a bit but doesn't poke out
21:49:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Thus the UltraBay battery
21:49:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:36 <ehird> It's 235g of battery in the shape of a CD drive.
21:49:44 <AnMaster> that gives me a bit more than 3.2 hours it seems. But I haven't really tried with a light load all the time, rather very busy, then completely idle (or even suspended) and so on
21:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, loading system fully got it up at 27 W btw
21:50:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't use CDs apart from to install old stuff I have and boot.
21:50:10 <ehird> In which case I can pop out the battery and pop in the CD drive.
21:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that was number crunching + heavy disk activity though
21:50:32 <AnMaster> oh and high load on the gbit ethernet
21:50:33 <ehird> Deewiant: I was originally considering the X200; it has no CD drive at all.
21:50:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I won't get your magically low power usage due to the components being older
21:50:58 <AnMaster> ehird, install over network then?
21:51:06 <ehird> What's that in response to
21:51:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: I was originally considering the X200; it has no CD drive at all.
21:51:34 <Deewiant> ehird: That Ultrabay battery would buy you what, an hour?
21:51:57 <ehird> Deewiant: 14 hours with 12-cell + Ultrabay for the person at AnMaster's uni with a T43p
21:52:13 <Deewiant> Sure, most of that being the 12-cell :-)
21:52:13 <ehird> So 6-cell + Ultrabay should get about 10 hours
21:52:34 <AnMaster> roughly 3.5 hours from ultrabay
21:52:43 <Deewiant> http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16834995034&ATT=34-995-034&CMP=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Notebook+Batteries+/+AC+Adapters-_-Lenovo-_-34995034 says "a bit over an hour" and "about 1-1.5 hours"
21:52:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Did they specify the model and workload?
21:53:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what ultrabay model is that
21:53:14 <AnMaster> since there has been a shitload of them
21:53:19 <ehird> Anyway, halving AnMaster's number let's say 4.75 hours from the 6-cell
21:53:36 <ehird> So I'd get roughly 8.25 hours, assuming same power usage as T43p.
21:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird, he did say he recently replaced batteries due to them being worn out.
21:53:43 <Deewiant> The other guy said 1.5 hours with max power savings on a T60
21:53:46 <ehird> Probably less, because of newer components, except more, because dual-core.
21:54:01 <AnMaster> anyway I'm going to get an ultrabay one myself :)
21:54:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was he running linux? because dynticks + HPET helps a lot.
21:55:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Anyway, the X200 which is a full Core 2 Duo, 12" widescreen, 4GB RAM kind of machine, except no CD drive, gets 10 hours on the 9-cell
21:55:08 <AnMaster> (I tested back under arch with custom kernel with/without dynticks)
21:55:13 <ehird> with no ultrabay battery
21:55:15 <ehird> Well, more like 9 hours
21:55:34 <Deewiant> The Xfoo series are kinda power-optimized AFAIK
21:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu uses more power than arch, seems to be due to more processes in background
21:56:19 <ehird> Deewiant: But still full-power
21:56:20 <AnMaster> and turning off wlan saves several watts
21:56:58 <AnMaster> oh and newer systems have SATA power link management
21:57:03 <Deewiant> ehird: Just saying that a T60 might get less than half of that
21:57:42 <ehird> Deewiant: If this dude gets 14 hours on a T43p with 12-cell + UltraBay, I'm pretty sure I can get 8-9 on a T60p with a 6-cell + UltraBay
21:57:54 <ehird> Of course, it's possible Mr. Dude is lying
21:58:15 <Deewiant> I don't know about the differences T43p - T60p
21:58:18 <AnMaster> ehird, he was using linux and I did notice he was using low screen brightness setting
21:58:29 <Deewiant> But I expect that's with minimal settings
21:58:35 <AnMaster> didn't look like ubuntu either
21:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm, that last bit is lame
21:58:44 <Deewiant> And I daresay that a 6-cell + UltraBay will get no more than half of 14 hours
21:59:03 <ehird> 6 hours is pushing it severely
21:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure what distro, but the gnome menu wasn't branded with any distro logo
21:59:19 <ehird> I'd get the X200, but that screen is so small.
21:59:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, and the T60p, while dual-core, has more power-efficient components
21:59:39 <ehird> Since it's Core 2, not Pentium M
21:59:56 <Deewiant> If I were to get one of those out-sticking 12-cell batteries I'd get maybe 5 hours on my R60
22:00:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I use mine on less than max brightness indoors too. Because it is too bright otherwise. One notch below max for me, but his was more like mid-setting
22:00:39 <ehird> Lol, you could get ultra low voltage Xeons in the past
22:01:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I always use my display at 100% brightness unless it's late and my eyes are hurting
22:01:18 <ehird> And I don't think my display is bright enough; whites are quite gray
22:01:27 <AnMaster> ehird, on battery I use it at 75% for power saving, works fine indoors
22:01:33 <ehird> "The Sossaman was a low-/ultra-low-power and double-processor capable CPU (like AMD Quad FX), based on the "Yonah" processor, for ultradense non-consumer environment (i.e. targeted at the blade-server and embedded markets), and it was rated at a thermal design power (TDP) of 31 W (LV: 1.66 GHz and 2 GHz ) and 15 W (ULV: 1.66 GHz)[2]."
22:01:50 <ehird> I wish Lenovo made the X200 in a 4:3 14" version
22:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also most displays look fine unless standing beside a superior display :P
22:01:53 <ehird> I'd be on it like something I'd be on
22:02:11 <ehird> I get annoyed using the old 19" LCD in this house, for instance
22:02:21 <ehird> Because dark gray is basically white on it
22:02:28 <AnMaster> of course you can get bad enough
22:02:30 <ehird> That one is pretty normal
22:02:32 <AnMaster> that it is easy to notice always
22:02:42 <ehird> It cost like 150 pounds in 2006
22:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, forgot you didn't use upper-segment monitors :P
22:03:03 <ehird> $250 is a lot for a 19" today, at least
22:03:14 <HackEgo> 1. http://images.google.com/images?q=%24250+in+SEK&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
22:03:24 <ehird> `calc 250 $ in SEK
22:03:26 <HackEgo> 250 US$ = 1 750.43061 Swedish kronor
22:03:27 <HackEgo> 250 U.S. dollars = 1 750.43061 Swedish kronor
22:03:33 <ehird> `calc 150 pounds in SEK
22:03:34 <HackEgo> 150 British pounds = 1 753.19629 Swedish kronor
22:03:46 <ehird> (And that error rating was .1 SEK out)
22:04:29 <ehird> Dollar ~= pound * 1.6
22:04:44 <ehird> Hmm, actually, closer to 1.5
22:05:04 <HackEgo> 1 British pound = 1.6693 U.S. dollars
22:05:19 <ehird> C needs unary equal thingies
22:05:36 <ehird> Which is REALLY USEFUL, HEY?
22:05:43 <ehird> foo = !foo; looks so stupid
22:05:53 <ehird> #define TOGGLE(x) x = !x
22:05:55 <ehird> But that looks stupid
22:06:06 <ehird> Also, true: not define
22:06:20 <AnMaster> that may break if it evaluates x twice
22:06:43 <Deewiant> #define toggle(x) ((x) = (!(x)))
22:06:49 <AnMaster> you still need bitwise self-not
22:06:56 <ehird> AnMaster, i t's an lvalue
22:07:03 <ehird> Evaluating it twice does fuck all
22:07:07 <ehird> Unless you do foo()->x
22:07:09 <ehird> Which means you're a retard
22:07:14 <ehird> Because you throw the result away
22:07:17 <ehird> And so achieve nothing
22:07:21 <ehird> Unless foo() adds it to some global list
22:07:26 <ehird> In which case YOUR PROGRAM FUCKING SUCKS
22:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, what if foo()->x is memory mapped
22:07:43 <ehird> Your program is shit like a dungheap of shitness
22:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, memory mapped to a device output register
22:08:04 <ehird> Any time you do {foo()->x = y;} you've got some black magic that you won't be able to reason about later
22:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, do {foo()->x = y;} while(true);
22:08:37 <ehird> Sort of like "Killing kittens means you're bad"
22:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what if that is the least painful way? You know, death help to kittens
22:10:06 * ehird wonders what posting a link to some loot on thepiratebay on a popular reddit post will result in
22:10:19 <ehird> Probably fire, brimstone and the magical disappearing post and subreddit ban
22:10:35 <ehird> They are still cute, QED
22:11:03 <Deewiant> struct M { int x; }; struct S { struct M m; }; struct M *foo(struct S *s) { return &s->m; } ... foo(s)->x = 1; /* not very black */
22:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, do you prefer to see it wither away for days in painful spasms?
22:11:44 <ehird> If it looks amusing, definitely!
22:11:53 <ehird> CAN HAS INTERPREATIVE DANCE
22:12:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and the eyes get all runny at the end.
22:12:19 <ehird> Deewiant: But that doesn't change every tiem you call foo()
22:12:36 <ehird> AnMaster: KITTY IZ SAD BECUZ CANT HAZ CHEEZBURGR
22:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what if it had been a pony instead of a kitten?
22:13:20 <Deewiant> ehird: You didn't specify it had to
22:13:22 <ehird> Ponies are disposable! There is an infinite supply of them
22:13:40 <ehird> Deewiant: True, I was referring to in the context of #define TOGGLE(x) ((x) = !(x)) breaking.
22:14:45 <ehird> Deewiant: YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING INCOMPREHENSIBLY WRONG
22:15:03 <AnMaster> I don't think that is even well defined
22:15:25 <Deewiant> TOGGLE(*x++) would be perfectly fine if it evaluated only once
22:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also it is quite comprehensible
22:15:40 <ehird> But it is so bad :P
22:16:00 <Deewiant> *x++ is quite usual in C if you're dealing with strings or the like.
22:16:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when is it "ok" to use something like: *((float*)((void*)&myintarray)) + 4*i
22:17:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is one case, when you are dealing with SIMD intrinsics, thus being restricted to a specific compiler anyway
22:18:03 <Deewiant> (You don't need the (void*), do you?)
22:18:14 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9jo27/i_work_for_microsoft_as_a_developer_and_worked_on/c0d1d5u?context=3 <- This is the first time I've ever felt bad for piracy XD
22:18:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you need the void* to shut up gcc shouting about aliasing rules
22:19:14 <pikhq> Doesn't GCC provide specific types for the SIMD intrinsics to use?
22:19:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, but I didn't remember the exact name. And that name differs from icc and gcc anyway
22:19:56 <AnMaster> something like __mm_128_f or whatever in icc I think
22:20:05 <pikhq> Though it sucks balls, C *does* allow for metaprogramming...
22:20:13 <ehird> Maybe I should remove that link :-P
22:20:23 <pikhq> There's a C preprocessor.
22:20:28 <pikhq> You are allowed to use it.
22:20:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what does "AIO Activated" mean?
22:20:51 <ehird> AnMaster: But I shouldn't cave my economic principles to some Microsoft lackey putting three symbols together! :(
22:21:00 <ehird> All-in-One; it has both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions installable
22:21:04 <ehird> Activated means, you know, you don't need a key.
22:21:07 <pikhq> Though it does suck, it sucks quite a bit less than some of the alternatives in C.
22:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I thought you were providing an example after
22:21:34 <ehird> Deewiant: I see no \n
22:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you were including it to illustrate the point
22:22:07 <Deewiant> ehird: It's the ctrl+enter / click for "submit"
22:22:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Clicking isn't a symbol
22:22:30 <ehird> Besides, the comment doesn't include it
22:22:35 <ehird> They also had to click "reply"
22:22:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh don't remember exact warning message
22:22:45 <ehird> But the comment is what is making me :( and it is three symbols
22:22:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, something like "blah blah breaks strict aliasing rules"
22:22:59 <AnMaster> will only happen at -O2 and above
22:23:07 <AnMaster> because gcc doesn't check aliasing below that
22:23:18 <Deewiant> Ah, that's what I was missing.
22:23:23 <AnMaster> because it only uses these rules to optimise harder at -O2 and above
22:23:25 <Deewiant> error: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules
22:23:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a variant with "may" instead of "will"
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22:24:32 <Deewiant> But isn't doing (void*) just inviting it to break instead of erroring
22:24:36 <ehird> I should do some C black magic.
22:24:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, if you are absolutely sure about what you are doing it is ok
22:24:41 <Deewiant> Shouldn't you be disabling the optimization in question or something
22:24:42 <ehird> There's a lot about the language I don't know.
22:25:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in this specific case it isn't dangerous because the thing I casted is a const pattern
22:25:13 -!- ehird has quit ("Page closed").
22:25:41 <Deewiant> With const it should probably work, yes.
22:26:43 <Deewiant> "night" almost an hour ago and now shower? O_o
22:26:53 <Deewiant> Welp, real night from me anyways ->
22:28:33 -!- ehird has joined.
22:28:40 <ehird> Asztal: lol@that a-patch thing to remove the ads from WLM
22:28:45 <ehird> that you mentioned
22:29:05 <ehird> It has some arabic in the top-left hand corner of the site and every. single. news post starts with "Praise be to God."
22:29:35 <ehird> "Now you can remove the advertisements and open more than one Messenger at a time (polygamy)"
22:29:40 <ehird> YOU DID NOT HAVE TO CALL THAT POLYGAMY
22:32:22 <ehird> Holy fucking shit, the default chat window is bloated
22:32:25 <ehird> Hugest avatars ever
22:35:00 <ehird> Well that's the worst chat client, ever
22:35:15 <ehird> Uninstalling without hesitation
22:40:35 <ehird> Asztal: this guy's forums are gold!
22:40:44 <ehird> [[“Or [they are] like darkness within an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds, darkness…”]]
22:40:46 <ehird> [[This description was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like.]]
22:41:07 <ehird> A sea has lots of waves. Also, there is a sky above and it is dark. There are clouds in it.
22:41:14 <ehird> Clearly, this man has seen the sea.
22:43:08 <ehird> you're all dirty chatzilla users, you windowsers
22:43:14 <ehird> apart from the mircers.
22:43:20 <Asztal> At least I don't run it in firefox.
22:43:28 <ehird> although there's a significant number of windowsers that use irssi
22:43:37 <ehird> Asztal: well yes, that's more insane
22:43:42 <coppro> it could be like a friend of mine
22:43:49 <coppro> who keeps his desktop as a VNC
22:44:09 <coppro> and has his irssi on an SSH session on remote desktop that's actually on another computer :/
22:44:21 <ehird> coppro: cease being his friend. he is crazy.
22:44:38 <coppro> ehird: lets him work from home, so I think he's quite sane
22:45:08 <oerjan> i do have my irssi on an ssh session
22:46:15 <ehird> well, basically all windowsers do
22:46:17 <ehird> otherwise you need cygwin
22:46:29 <ehird> well, there is a windows installer
22:46:34 <ehird> ssh seems to be the most popular method
22:49:09 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:59:08 <ehird> Incidentally, is it just me or is Foxit Reader kind of crap?
22:59:11 <ehird> Maybe older versions are better.
23:02:08 * ehird downloads Foxit v2
23:02:14 <ehird> I wonder if it has a netscape plugin that Chrome can use.
23:03:17 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> "night" almost an hour ago and now shower? O_o <-- time traveling sure is annoying indeed.
23:03:37 <ehird> i wish you would stop saying night
23:04:18 <ehird> Foxit 2 looks exactly the same as 3.1, except it doesn't try and install the "Foxit toolbar", which is an improvement. The installer still uses faux Windows XP widgets and the app itself still has iffy-looking widgets - especially the menus.
23:04:31 <ehird> Why isn't there a *Windows-native* lightweight PDF reader with a Netscape-style plugin?
23:05:06 <Asztal> I wonder how difficult it would be to add a NPAPI plugin to sumatra.
23:05:13 <ehird> Isn't 3.0 like super-ancient
23:05:18 <ehird> I doubt it'll work very well
23:05:20 <ehird> Especially with new PDFs
23:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, enough to be lightweight!
23:05:25 <ehird> Asztal: I dismissed Sumatra because of that
23:05:27 <ehird> but it looks really good
23:05:29 <Asztal> Because Sumatra is pretty much the most lightweight one you'll find.
23:05:30 <oerjan> ehird: it's a perfectly accurate time designation!
23:05:46 <Asztal> It renders slowly, though. That's my only other gripe.
23:05:51 <ehird> http://blog.kowalczyk.info/software/sumatrapdf/index.html
23:05:56 <ehird> Asztal: What sort of machine?
23:06:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Windows.
23:06:03 <ehird> You're being intentionally obtuse.
23:06:18 <ehird> Yeah, and so does stabbing my eyes out with a fork.
23:06:31 <ehird> I kind of want something that uses Windows, not X11 with Qt, you know?
23:06:34 <AnMaster> the implementation is pretty eye-stabbing
23:06:41 <ehird> I've read fork(), yes.
23:07:02 <ehird> I wish more stuff would be 64-bit
23:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, again... I can only recommend linu
23:07:51 <AnMaster> because everything except zsnes is 64-bit on this system
23:08:06 <ehird> you could also shut up
23:08:25 <ehird> It was "wish", not "this is absolutely vital".
23:08:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I see no good reason to do so
23:08:45 <ehird> Well if you want to be a dick, sure, there's no reason to
23:10:28 <ehird> Asztal: What machine is Sumatra slow on?
23:10:44 <ehird> I can see it loading, sure, but it takes like <0.1s
23:11:40 <Asztal> It's not slow to load, but when scrolling through a document the pages show up as "rendering page..." for quite a while sometimes
23:11:58 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0 $ cat manufacture_date
23:11:58 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0 $ cat first_use_date
23:12:14 <Asztal> (It's a Q9450 with 4GB of RAM.)
23:13:02 <ehird> I don't like how Sumatra can't resize the window to fit the page width automatically
23:13:13 <ehird> Maybe I should write a decent PDF reader.
23:13:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I want li-poly battery for thinkpad. that would be cool
23:13:39 <ehird> It seems to be one of those fields that attracts custom interfaces, bloat and sucking.
23:13:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I want a flat battery for ThinkPads, like Apple has.
23:14:01 <ehird> 7 hours on a small, non-poking-out-or-raising battery? Fuck yeah!
23:14:06 <ehird> Almost certainly patented, though.
23:14:09 <ehird> They're really tooting that horn.
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23:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: The 6-cell battery, e.g., raises the back of the ThinkPad up.
23:14:27 <ehird> As opposed to the 4-cell, which keeps it flat.
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23:14:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the 9 cell ones raises too?
23:14:39 <Asztal> ehird: it seems to be rendering very quickly now that I try it again, maybe it was specific to some of the PDFs I tried.
23:14:56 <ehird> No it's not. You think it is.
23:15:01 <ehird> It's actually raised slightly at the back.
23:15:04 <ehird> But the point is, the Apple binaries are regular-sized and lightweight, and the smallest one, in a 13" notebook just over 2kg, gets 7 hours.
23:15:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I took the battery out recently and noticed no difference
23:15:14 <ehird> (The 17" one, which is just shy of 3kg, gets 8.)
23:16:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the things that make the thinkpad stand up from the surface in any case (the rubber thingies) are higher, just looked under it...
23:16:19 <ehird> There must be a good library for rendering PDFs, and I guess the Netscape plugin API is quite simple, so the only problem I'll have will be, oh god, the Windows GUI API thingy.
23:16:36 <ehird> I wonder if there's some fancy C# thing that makes it look like Cthulhu with makeup instead of two Cthulhus.
23:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a good library, poppler iirc
23:16:57 <ehird> How's its typography? Uses the system?
23:17:00 <AnMaster> Available versions: 0.8.7 0.10.4 ~0.10.5 0.10.5-r1 {cjk doc jpeg zlib}
23:17:00 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://poppler.freedesktop.org/
23:17:00 <AnMaster> Description: PDF rendering library based on the xpdf-3.0 code base
23:17:07 <ehird> Based on xpdf, it seems
23:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and it works good for me
23:17:26 <ehird> I hate xpdf for one reason -
23:17:29 <ehird> [[If any security features are turned on by the creator of a PDF document, the PDF file will be encrypted. These security features let an author disallow printing, copying text/graphics, editing, and/or adding annotations.]]
23:17:33 <ehird> It respects those batshit fascist features
23:17:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that is possible to turn off
23:17:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't care, it's evil
23:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, since kpdf uses poppler, and kpdf defaults to not respecting it...
23:17:53 <Asztal> ehird: sumatra uses mupdf, which IIRC looked fairly simple
23:18:07 <ehird> Asztal: I *would* like something more instant, though.
23:18:12 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/screen1.png ;; xpdf's typography appears to be lacking.
23:18:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't like how Sumatra can't resize the window to fit the page width automatically <ehird> Maybe I should write a decent PDF reader. <ehird> It seems to be one of those fields that attracts custom interfaces, bloat and sucking. <-- sounds like your one would "more bloated" than this sumatra then ;P
23:19:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that's a super old version I thin
23:19:34 <AnMaster> ehird, kpdf looks better, and it uses poppler
23:20:06 <ehird> But that screenshot is from the xpdf site :P
23:20:21 <ehird> But poppler presumably uses freetype, not Windowswhatevertype.
23:20:41 <ehird> http://ccxvii.net/mupdf/ Hey, MuPDF has a Windows viewer and Firefox plugin.
23:21:06 <Asztal> http://code.google.com/p/sumatrapdf/source/browse/trunk/src/SumatraPDF.cpp have fun
23:22:19 <ehird> They make ghostscript.
23:23:06 <ehird> mupdf.exe has no UI except for keyboard controls to go forward/back, which is unacceptable, it seems.
23:23:19 <Asztal> Yes, it's slightly minimalistic :D
23:23:22 <ehird> The others are command-line tools.
23:23:51 <Asztal> Still, it's better than one postscript reader I found, which would only let me go forward and not backward.
23:23:57 <ehird> Asztal: you do windows-type gui programming thingy don't you?
23:24:00 <ehird> I seem to recall something along those linse
23:24:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh iirc xpdf doesn't use freetype. At least xpdf looks worse than kpdf here
23:24:23 <AnMaster> and iirc xpdf doesn't use poppler
23:24:23 <Asztal> Yes, though preferably not dealing directly with the windows API.
23:25:13 <ehird> AnMaster: poppler is based on xpdf.
23:25:24 <ehird> .NET Windows Forms stuff?
23:26:03 <Asztal> ehird: That's one way. (It's bad, and lets windows API faults leak in, but it's still preferable)
23:26:11 <ehird> But I doubt poppler has pluggable text rendering.
23:26:20 <ehird> Asztal: What else, then?
23:26:42 <Asztal> I haven't used much else that's good.
23:26:53 <Asztal> There's WTL, which may or may not be good.
23:27:11 <Asztal> There's XUL, which has the problem of XPCOM and gecko and stuff.
23:27:22 <ehird> XUL is horrifically bad.
23:27:25 <Asztal> There's WPF, which is enterprisey and has really bad font rendering.
23:27:57 <Asztal> I'm not aware of many more that can give a native feel.
23:28:18 <ehird> How does WPF have bad font rendering?
23:29:01 <Asztal> ehird: It doesn't do antialiasing properly, IMO. You end up with "fuzzy" fonts (more so than normal cleartype, which I find perfectly readable.)
23:29:03 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript <-- cool
23:29:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't know about dps?
23:29:25 <ehird> Asztal: http://www.devcomponents.com/dotnetbar-wpf/img/WpfDockRibbonPad.png looks like it has no subpixel
23:29:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't before however
23:29:49 <ehird> Asztal: Cleartype is kind of crap, btw
23:29:58 <ehird> Although I've got used to it; maybe 7 improved it.
23:30:47 * ehird wonders if any of the PDF libraries can keep the graphics sized-down, but make the text bigger
23:30:58 <ehird> That'd be nice for reading PDFs without a hueg-liek-xbox window.
23:31:12 <Asztal> ehird: Yes, I think it can't use cleartype because it's not drawing aligned to the pixel grid, it's drawing at subpixel locations...
23:31:52 <Asztal> Supposedly cleartype was improved in 7 to support vertical antialiasing as well as horizontal, but I think that's more of a CJK thing.
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23:52:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Huge like xbox.
23:53:05 <ehird> wrt vertical thing: yeah, i made this display portrait :-)
23:53:20 <ehird> can't rotate it though, and putting it on its side might damage the components
23:53:37 <ehird> fwiw, the font rendering in http://www.devcomponents.com/dotnetbar-wpf/img/WpfDockRibbonPad.png looks better than cleartype to me
23:53:58 <ehird> I guess I'll go with Windows Forms, unless Qt is native on Windows these days.
23:55:30 <ehird> "Be Part of Windows History, Host a Windows® 7 Launch Party."
23:55:48 <ehird> Fun fact: Explicitly not attending one of these parties increases your attractiveness quotient by 75.
23:57:33 <ehird> Poppler is just PDF, which is a shame. I could do like Preview and automatically convert PostScript and DVI files to PDF beforehand, though.
23:57:43 <ehird> I wonder if it could do my scale-up-only-text thing.
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00:02:45 <ehird> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/10/yeah-ok-so-facebook-punkd-us/ ;; from reddit. TechCrunch? Inaccurate? Naive? ZomGNEVar!!!1
00:03:55 <ehird> Sweet, uninstalling Sumatra doesn't remove its start menu icons
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00:20:35 * ehird is continually surprised that people actually install drivers that come with a piece of hardware
00:25:01 <ehird> I really hate the windows-tab switcher thing
00:25:11 <ehird> It's just different enough from Expose to (a) not be a ripoff, (b) be useless
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00:30:28 <coppro> and, 801.11n is approved
00:30:44 <ehird> coppro: identical to recent drafts?
00:30:49 <ehird> or do we need yet more hardware
00:31:07 <coppro> I hope it's close enough to recent drafts
00:31:13 <coppro> my new computer has a draft-n chip
00:31:42 <ehird> coppro: does it really matter though
00:31:48 <ehird> the one before that is fast enough
00:32:02 <ehird> coppro: anyway, there's been draft-n hardware since, like, mid 2008
00:32:04 <ehird> so you should be fine
00:32:15 <coppro> ehird: probably not. But as far as drafts go, they usually don't change in the last few steps of standardization
00:32:29 <coppro> maybe clarifications, but no major feature changes
00:33:43 <ehird> http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption ;; Full-speed video on an original PC
00:36:52 <ehird> Right, that's it, I'm writing my own PDF reader
00:42:46 <ehird> "First Sumatra was based on Xpdf (v<0.2), then Poppler as backend but it changed to MuPDF because of better support for the Windows platform."
00:42:51 <ehird> won't be using poppler then
00:54:45 * ehird reconsiders his position on Foxit
00:54:47 <ehird> you can hide the ad
00:55:04 <ehird> and the menu, at least, turns normal, although the menus therein don't
00:56:42 <ehird> but it's still not perfect, so nyah :)
00:57:38 <ehird> ofc the latest version is still uber-bloated
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01:01:08 <ehird> ...wtf, foxit uses its own open dialog
01:01:38 <coppro> ehird: it's better than Kubuntu alpha
01:01:46 <coppro> you should see OO.org's file dialog
01:02:01 <ehird> coppro: linux file dialogs are pretty much unrescuable
01:02:03 <coppro> I filed a bug entitled "KDE FIle dialog utterly broken" - no one has disputed that claim
01:02:12 <ehird> Windows' are pretty damn good
01:02:17 <coppro> nah, KDE's is pretty good
01:02:22 <coppro> just the OO.org guys fail
01:02:28 <ehird> gnome's kinda sucks, though
01:02:35 <ehird> it takes the wrong approach to simplicity entirely
01:02:38 <coppro> also, whatever one thunderbird is using
01:02:44 <ehird> mozilla have their own
01:02:47 <ehird> you can make it use kde's
01:02:47 <coppro> I type in the filename, halfway through it autocompletes it
01:02:48 <ehird> there's a plugin thing
01:02:58 <coppro> without even having a dropdown or anything
01:03:35 <coppro> for instance, I download a file, need to open with kate. If I type "/usr/bin/kate", I end up with "/usr/sr/bin/in/katete"
01:04:15 <ehird> well that's clearly the program Katate, which is a non-base-system special resource, translated to indian
01:05:09 <coppro> whoever designed that should be shot
01:05:21 <ehird> that applies to most things
01:05:35 <coppro> eh, most of them it's just locked up and left to die
01:05:42 <coppro> this file dialog is a shooting offence
01:06:06 <coppro> btw, turn on your away flag, head in to #nomirc, and say you're away
01:06:09 <ehird> i think slowly dying of thirst is more horrific than being shot
01:18:25 <ehird> also, WJW @ http://code.google.com/p/sumatrapdf/source/browse/trunk/src/SumatraPDF.cpp
01:18:28 <ehird> ever hearda files?
01:31:43 <GregorR> <coppro> for instance, I download a file, need to open with kate. If I type "/usr/bin/kate", I end up with "/usr/sr/bin/in/katete"
01:31:48 <GregorR> That's so FEKKING ANNOYING
01:32:29 <GregorR> I'd rather just make a sob.
01:36:37 <ehird> I do hope there's a better way to make Windowsy GUIy things without using Visual Studio.
01:39:43 <Sgeo> Do the GUI code by hand?
01:39:55 <ehird> Assemble the whole GUI in code?
01:40:00 <ehird> Yeah, uh, I said "a better way".
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01:44:29 <coppro> building GUIs in code isn't as hard as people make it out to be
01:44:54 <ehird> It's obfuscatory, it doesn't help you design UIs (you have to design them in your head then write it as code), ...
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03:38:23 <ehird> CMake Error at cmake/modules/CfungeRequireFunction.cmake:35 (message): Your system seems to be missing the function "getaddrinfo" which is required by cfunge.
03:38:27 <ehird> stumbling block numero uno!
03:38:58 * ehird grabs himself an implementation of getaddrinfo
03:41:58 <ehird> holy fucking hell ./configure is slow on cygwin
03:42:07 <ehird> even slower than ccmake was at the start
03:42:25 <ehird> good thing I'm only using this POS to try cmake compilation
03:42:25 <Sgeo__> ehird, I assume you want to use CFunge while playing your game?
03:42:35 <ehird> Sgeo__: something like that :)
03:42:51 <ehird> I'm just trying to irritate AnMaster by providing him a few short patches to make it work perfectly on cygwin
03:43:06 <ehird> and watch him squirm as he tries to come up with excuses not to commit them!
03:43:34 <Sgeo__> I take it that Cygwin is imperfect?
03:43:46 <ehird> process spawning on windows is dog slow. no way around that.
03:43:53 <ehird> But cygwin is fitting a square peg into a round hole badly.
03:44:18 <ehird> I'm going to switch to MinGW+Xming, paired with MSYS.
03:44:35 <ehird> Or just MinGW+GnuWin32, but that doesn't include a shell afaik.
03:44:49 <ehird> All I want is the basic unix tools and a nice shell + terminal, that's all.
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03:55:55 <ehird> We have cfunge configuration page!
03:55:59 * ehird tweaks linker options to link with the impl
03:57:11 <ehird> And it's compiling!
03:57:18 <ehird> With a shitload of warnings for every file.
03:57:23 <ehird> Including a bunch of visibility ones.
03:57:37 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:50:4: error: #error "cfunge needs a working mmap(), which this system claims it lacks."
03:57:53 <ehird> cygwin's mmap works
03:57:55 <ehird> let's patch that out
03:58:24 <ehird> oh, "working" = OMG POSIX DECLARATION YAAAAY
03:59:02 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/fingerprints/REXP/REXP.c:31:4: error: #error "cfunge needs POSIX regular expressions, which this system claims it doesn't have."
04:00:31 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c:223: error: 'M_PI' undeclared (first use in this function)
04:00:36 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c:228: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'round'
04:01:36 <ehird> AnMaster: yo, M_PI is non-standard.
04:02:16 <ehird> that compile went very well, only a few linker errors
04:02:37 <ehird> SOCK and SCKE both define ___ntohl and ___ntohs apparently
04:02:41 <ehird> but "static" isn't supported on cygwin
04:03:29 <ehird> ah, from getaddrinfo, presumably
04:04:34 <ehird> ah, it's from winsock
04:05:17 * ehird replaces _Exit with exit
04:05:21 <ehird> hmm, no, just _exit
04:05:40 <coppro> just compile to LLVM :P
04:05:58 <ehird> uhh, no, that won't work
04:06:03 <coppro> (neat fact: one of the examples LLVM comes with is a brainfuck interpreter)
04:06:04 <ehird> LLVM doesn't provide posix libraries.
04:06:23 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c.o:SOCK.c:(.text+0x0): multiple definition of `___ntohl' CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x0): first defined here CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c.o:SOCK.c:(.text+0x10): multiple definition of `___ntohs' CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x10): first defined here
04:06:28 <ehird> as soon as I can fix those, I have a compilation
04:06:53 <coppro> same file's getting compiled more than once?
04:07:11 <ehird> read the damn error, it's that some header file defines those twice
04:07:15 <ehird> a winsock header, obviously
04:07:51 <ehird> naturally I have no f'n clue how to fix that...
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04:08:08 <ehird> knowing windows headers I can probably do #define WINSOCK_DO_NOT_DEFINE_NTOHL
04:08:10 <coppro> it's kludgy but it will work
04:08:11 <ehird> coppro: it's in a system header file.
04:08:20 <ehird> you know. winsock.
04:08:33 <coppro> wait, you're on Windows?
04:08:49 <ehird> obviously; I'm trying to compile cfunge with cygwin
04:09:17 <ehird> it failed a lot at the start because cygwin doesn't pedantically claim to be posix-perfect by defining a name in a header file :)
04:09:24 <Sgeo__> Why would CFunge not work on cygwin?
04:09:39 <ehird> First of all, it's not CFunge, stop calling it that.
04:09:55 <ehird> Second of all, AnMaster idk, his BFF unrealistic demand for POSIX compliance.
04:10:33 <Sgeo__> My demand for cross-platform workability was the cause of a major spec change in PSOX
04:10:48 <Sgeo__> Although come to think of it, I never tested PSOX on Windows
04:11:22 <ehird> I'm actually planning on writing a fully-featured PDF reader for Windows, complete with browser plugin, so I guess I'm off the deep end into the Dark Side now.
04:11:38 <ehird> Also, fun fact: Going off an end to get to a side makes no sense whatsoever.
04:13:00 <ehird> Sgeo__: This is your new favourite subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/tipofmytongue/
04:13:37 <Sgeo__> ehird, because I made a comment once or twice about wanting to find something that I forgot the name of?
04:13:52 <ehird> And also posted to reddit about it with cringeworthy audio!
04:14:05 <Sgeo__> I didn't actually post it to reddit
04:14:23 <Sgeo__> I posted about something else to reddit
04:14:49 <Sgeo__> Which one of these has cringeworthy audio? http://www.reddit.com/user/Sgeo/submitted/
04:15:15 <ehird> I don't actually care enough to look...
04:16:07 <Sgeo__> Why do I only ever make cringeworthy stuff?
04:17:15 <ehird> In case you haven't noticed, I'm kind of a dick. True story.
04:18:39 * ehird puts all the socket includes in the global cfunge header file, says "fuck it"
04:20:01 <ehird> Oh, I think "static" isn't working because of an old version of something.
04:20:11 <ehird> coppro: s/static/inline/ :D
04:20:42 <coppro> ehird: yeah, that would do it
04:20:48 <ehird> oh, PE just doesn't do static
04:20:55 <ehird> coppro: except like 90% of cfunge things are static
04:21:04 <coppro> ehird: #define static inline ;)
04:21:16 <coppro> (that's a terrible idea. Don't do that. Seriously)
04:21:31 <ehird> [04:20] <ehird> coppro: s/static/inline/ :D
04:21:35 <ehird> I kind of pre-empted you there...
04:21:46 <ehird> by putting it in the global header
04:21:50 <ehird> now ALL of the objects conflict
04:22:42 <ehird> is there a way to declare a function inline after the fact?
04:23:24 <Sgeo__> Hm, why would declaring functions inline affect anything other than efficiency?
04:23:32 <coppro> Sgeo__: it affects the ODR
04:24:18 <coppro> ODR = One Definition Rule
04:24:20 <Sgeo__> ..why would anything try to define a function more than once?
04:24:33 <ehird> Sgeo__: you are supid. sop alking
04:24:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
04:24:43 <ehird> now that i've re-attached my t key, hi
04:24:47 <coppro> Sgeo is unfamiliar with C-like languages
04:24:56 <ehird> yeah yeah shush you :P
04:25:04 <ehird> bashing sgeo is my national sport.
04:25:07 <coppro> Sgeo__: #include is a text replacement operation, so if a function is defined in a header, it will be defined in every TU to #include it
04:25:07 <Sgeo__> Namespace/scope issues?
04:25:23 <ehird> coppro: you're intentionally using acronyms to confuse him, aren't you :P
04:25:23 <Sgeo__> ...why would a function be defined in a header?
04:25:50 <Sgeo__> And why would it work in a real POSIX environment but not cygwin?
04:25:52 <coppro> Sgeo__: for whatever reason
04:25:58 <ehird> cygwin isn't perfect
04:26:00 <ehird> and windows isn't perfect
04:26:06 <coppro> because it's using Winsock
04:26:13 <ehird> windows' PE executable format has no visibility stuff
04:26:16 <ehird> therefore cygwin can't do visibility
04:26:21 <ehird> therefore "static" can go fuck itself
04:26:31 <ehird> presumably microsoft's compiler does something special for static
04:26:34 <ehird> but gcc on cygwin doesn't
04:27:15 <Sgeo__> I still don't see why functions were defined in headers
04:27:53 <coppro> ehird: I've got a truly terrible idea
04:28:02 <ehird> this particular function is defined in a header written in assembly
04:28:04 <ehird> or something like that
04:28:08 <ehird> coppro: i'm scared
04:28:19 <coppro> ehird: compile Winelib's Winsock in Cygwin
04:28:39 <ehird> (but it probably does the same thing)
04:28:48 <Sgeo__> ehird is Randall Munroe in disguise!
04:29:26 <coppro> ehird: alternate solution: how many source files actually include winsock?
04:29:43 <ehird> SOCK, and SCKE. Two competing fingerprints.
04:29:51 <ehird> They cannot be combined.
04:29:52 <coppro> ehird: pick the one that uses WinSock less and declare the functions yourself
04:29:59 <coppro> rather than #including
04:30:03 <ehird> But I have to define structures and stuff too.
04:30:10 <ehird> And I could just, you know, kill myself instead.
04:31:52 <ehird> coppro: Maybe I should just disable whichever one fungot doesn't use.
04:31:53 <fungot> ehird: i did sort-of guess that it would have been a different feature, like first-class continuations. for closures all you need for a portable device with a non-gpl firmware? they shouldn't care about that
04:32:08 <ehird> I don't think C has first-class continuations, fizzie.
04:32:23 <ehird> Also, closures have nothing to do with proprietary portable devices. Indeed they should not care about such things.
04:32:29 <fungot> ehird: mit.edu knows the right info! :) how long does it take to build a derived structure in another module
04:32:38 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
04:32:43 <coppro> C should totally support first-class continuations :D
04:32:55 <ehird> I cleaned up some code that did that once.
04:33:00 <ehird> And e.g. Elk Scheme does it.
04:33:06 <coppro> although it does have longjump *shudder*
04:33:34 * coppro is glad longjmp in C++ is basically defined as "go fuck yourself"
04:33:47 <ehird> You find the base of the stack at the start of the program, then copy from the top of the stack to there. Then you setjmp, and make a (setjmp thingy,stack) tuple type.
04:33:56 <ehird> To resume, copy the stack back and longjmp.
04:34:00 <ehird> Voila! Is like a magic!
04:35:18 <coppro> so basically you make a cactus stack
04:35:38 <ehird> No, you just copy the stack.
04:35:54 <ehird> It gives you first-class continuations.
04:36:02 <ehird> coppro: The C stack.
04:36:05 <ehird> It works with any C code.
04:36:17 <ehird> You said C should have first-class continuations; I say it's easy to code; you say it's boring. wut
04:36:29 <coppro> cactus stacks are more fun!
04:36:48 <ehird> copying a block of memory turns out to be fast, and so are setjmp/longjmp
04:37:12 <ehird> although not the nop it is in e.g. continuation-passing style
04:38:10 <pikhq> Longjmp is an awful hack. Though, that's not *much* of an argument against it. After all, awful hacks are the C way.
04:38:22 <ehird> setjmp is just saving a bunch of registers and a pointer to the stack
04:38:31 <ehird> oh, I forgot one step in the make-continuation part
04:38:38 <pikhq> Still an awful hack.
04:38:43 <ehird> in the resume part
04:38:56 <ehird> you set the setjmp-struct's stack pointer to point to your newly-restored stack
04:39:01 <ehird> otherwise it doesn't work
04:39:02 <coppro> wouldn't it just be easier to make a function that has no local state call setjmp, thus making a proper continuation easier?
04:39:12 <ehird> that isn't a continuation
04:39:18 <ehird> setjmp fails as soon as you fall below the frame that called it
04:39:25 <ehird> also, that is totally irrelevant
04:39:28 <ehird> it has nothing to do with that at all
04:40:52 <ehird> lol, fungot uses both SOCK and SCKE
04:40:52 <fungot> ehird: they use python right now
04:40:56 <ehird> fungot: no they don't
04:40:56 <fungot> ehird: me is looking for something better to happen", or " a deep dark secret". even though it doesn't mean anything
04:41:07 <ehird> don't search for things with no meaning, fungot :P
04:41:26 <coppro> are you trying to run your own fungot?
04:41:26 <fungot> coppro: i trust them.)" fnord)
04:41:36 <ehird> coppro: no, but running fungot on windows would be fun
04:41:37 <fungot> ehird: key words: " in the right hands) to the channel is active, and which i thought replaced it
04:41:51 <ehird> I have no idea htf to fix this
04:42:23 <coppro> why are you using winsock anyways?
04:42:30 <ehird> umm, because that's what cygwin's sockets are.
04:42:42 <ehird> winsock is BSD sockets, you know.
04:42:49 <pikhq> Well, winsock is at least close to normal sockets.
04:42:52 <coppro> so basically cygwin can't compile sockets
04:42:56 <coppro> that doesn't sound right
04:43:03 <pikhq> Different header was the main difference, right?
04:43:04 <ehird> coppro: winsock's API = berkely sockets API
04:43:14 <ehird> **berkely sockets'
04:43:24 <ehird> pikhq: winsock lets you use the BSD header names
04:43:26 <coppro> but cygwin should be able to compile sockets
04:43:33 <ehird> coppro: what the fuck does that mean?
04:43:35 <ehird> it can compile socket code
04:43:39 <coppro> ehird: it clearly can't
04:43:43 <coppro> since it isn't working
04:43:53 <pikhq> Well, then, winsock is nothing more than an implementation of BSD sockets.
04:43:59 <ehird> I thought cfunge needed it
04:44:09 <ehird> it works for other people
04:44:18 <ehird> but cygwin sockets work fine for most people
04:44:22 <ehird> pikhq: winsock is based on BSD sockets.
04:44:26 <ehird> like, the actual code.
04:44:59 <pikhq> ehird: In the same way that BSD is an implementation of UNIX. That it's a fork doesn't change that.
04:45:17 <ehird> cygwin has socket headers
04:45:21 <ehird> presumably it then includes winsock.h itself
04:45:31 <pikhq> But yeah, you're right. I had temporarily forgotten that Windows devs just took BSD sockets and ported it.
04:45:32 <ehird> so i was wrong in saying you can use the old header names with winsock
04:45:34 <ehird> it's cygwin donig that
04:46:38 <ehird> this is irritating
04:53:16 <ehird> it'll obviously work if i fix this, so point proven
04:53:20 <ehird> whatever that point is
04:53:24 <ehird> time to remove cygcrap from my disk
04:56:25 <ehird> I wonder if Mono supports the windows gui stuff
05:03:10 <ehird> coppro: as a warning, you may get more flak from me for using C++ in the near future
05:03:29 <coppro> ehird: says someone considering Mono
05:04:29 <ehird> coppro: I'm fairly sure that Windows Forms is less horrific than MFC, WTL or Win32, dood.
05:04:49 <ehird> But I'll likely go for stock .NET, it's just that that involves using Visual Studio and ew.
05:04:52 <coppro> gtkmm ftw (or ftl on Windows I guess)
05:05:18 <ehird> Yeah, I'm kinda trying to write something native, small, low memory usage, fast, no dependencies...
05:05:26 <ehird> So, basically the opposite of gtkmm.
05:06:50 <coppro> (or SFML in C++, which I know you hate)
05:07:08 <ehird> SDL is a graphics library, not a GUI library...
05:07:23 <ehird> Unless you mean "make your own widgets", in which case please give me your address so that I may stab you.
05:07:34 <ehird> (I *did* say "native" and all...)
05:07:58 <coppro> oh, you want native widgets
05:08:06 <coppro> then yeah, winforms is probably the way to go :/
05:08:14 <coppro> mono has winforms support
05:08:24 <ehird> No, coppro; I want to make a PDF viewer with blinking SDL widgets. :P
05:08:36 <ehird> "It's just like every game menu ever!"
05:08:53 <ehird> Anyway, yeah; I'm either going for winforms or WTL.
05:09:05 <ehird> I wonder if Mono/WinForms has a GUI designer thingy.
05:10:31 <ehird> Also, creepy thing of the yesterday: Windows detected that I was using an all-in-one computer in the hardware control panel thing.
05:11:16 <coppro> ehird: according to mono's page, SharpDevelop does
05:12:15 <ehird> http://static.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/TeaserSharpDevelop2OnVista.png Well, it doesn't look *awful*...
05:12:28 <ehird> I'm just wary because foss stuff is usually crap on windows.
05:13:15 <ehird> SharpDevelop looks like I'd be able to do it on .NET without using Visual Studio, which is nice.
05:13:29 <ehird> I wonder if .NET can interact with MinGW-compiled code alright.
05:13:41 <ehird> I'd like to compile whatever PDF library i use with MinGW then link it into the final .NET binary...
05:14:11 <coppro> I don't think Mono can bridge into nonmanaged code yet
05:14:12 <ehird> I know it can import dlls fine, the only question is if you can do that with... non-dlls.
05:14:16 <coppro> at least, not very well
05:14:47 <ehird> Yah, Mono's out if I can use .NET without VS.
05:15:22 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/SharpDevelop.png not that sharpdevelop looks any better
05:15:36 <ehird> I wonder if these IDE guys ever just look at one of their screenshots.
05:16:00 <ehird> Insert qualifier "comfortably".
05:16:58 * ehird , wanting to use the Microsoft WinForms site thing, installs Silverlight, sighs
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05:23:19 <ehird> in fact, fuck that
05:23:31 <ehird> I know I'll be using mingw
05:31:48 <ehird> "WoW... and at 7680x3200 res, maxed settings and 80FPS, there's hardly a more appropriate description to AMD's DX11 card..."
05:31:58 <ehird> upu...tumaoertjiojgioerjgodfisgjdfgoigosifjg
05:32:06 <ehird> ashaiuwhuwihaiuhwhatTHEFUCKINGHELL
05:32:09 <ehird> that's some mega gpu
05:32:12 <coppro> askdjlf lsakdg;ah;ah;we; a;djls
05:32:27 <ehird> PARALLEL COMPUTING
05:32:41 <ehird> I AM PRACTICALLY COMPUTING AS I STAND HERE THINKING ABOUT IT
05:32:54 <ehird> http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/ATI/Eyefinity/eyefinity.jpg holy wow on a stick
05:33:27 <coppro> that big bar in the middle makes it all pointless
05:33:47 <ehird> It all just seems to work, which is arguably the most impressive part of it all. AMD has partnered up with at least one display manufacturer to sell displays with thinner bezels and without distracting LEDs on the front:
05:34:07 <ehird> http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/ATI/Eyefinity/eyefinity2.jpg ;; what it'll look like
05:34:26 <coppro> not bad, but STILL THERE's A FREAKING BAR IN THE MIDDLE OF MY SCREEN
05:34:27 <ehird> "I played Dirt 2, a DX11 title at 7680 x 3200 and saw definitely playable frame rates. I played Left 4 Dead and the experience was much better. Obviously this new GPU is powerful, although I wouldn't expect it to run everything at super high frame rates at 7680 x 3200."
05:34:41 <ehird> you could get 20fps on top settings on crysis at 1024x768, I bet!
05:34:54 <ehird> one window per screen
05:35:24 <coppro> ugh, the mouse movement L(
05:35:38 <ehird> = you wouldn't be using a mouse
05:36:18 <ehird> coppro: also, it's good as long as your windows don't overlap screens
05:36:25 <ehird> so... very GPU intensive spreadsheets
05:36:42 <coppro> ehird: yes, you could do a 6-screen display, but really?
05:37:12 <ehird> http://files.myopera.com/wiz/albums/781632/wiz-desktop1.jpg
05:37:18 <ehird> from the silentpcreview forums
05:37:32 <ehird> that huge slab of metal on wheels to the right is a TNN-500AF
05:37:43 <ehird> which is a totally heatpipe, no-moving-parts CPU case/psu/etc
05:38:11 <ehird> the guy uses it (it costs >$1,000 just for the case) + an SSD (= 0 moving parts computer) + 6 fucking monitors
05:41:36 <ehird> imagine multiple projectors
05:41:54 <ehird> I want six fucking projectors and a circular room
05:42:15 <coppro> can Xorg handle circular displays?
05:42:33 <ehird> just position the projectors right
05:42:43 <ehird> the room won't be tiny, so it'll look fine at any given position
05:42:52 <coppro> no, but I mean can xorg handle a screen that you can wrap your mouse all the way round on
05:43:07 <ehird> that would be trivial
05:43:13 <ehird> just add a hot thing to the left and right edges
05:43:16 <ehird> to warp to the other edge
05:43:33 <coppro> but then you couldn't stretch windows over, etc.
05:43:43 <ehird> ah, i see what you mean
05:43:55 <ehird> could six projectors cover a decent-sized circular room, btw?
05:44:49 <ehird> man, imagine a 3d game designed for one of them
05:44:55 <ehird> no need to swerve the mouse to look behind you
05:44:58 <ehird> just... look behind you
05:45:18 <ehird> i just had an idea
05:45:19 <coppro> with a swivel chair hooked into the system
05:45:20 <ehird> and it is a good idea
05:45:32 <coppro> so you turn left, you /actually turn left/
05:45:32 <ehird> coppro: actually, a chair thing that straps you in and can go 360 degrees in any dimension
05:45:38 <ehird> so you can rotate in any way
05:45:45 <ehird> little button things at the left and right sidse
05:45:53 <ehird> so that when your hand or foot hits one
05:45:58 <ehird> it uses a motor to rotate that way
05:46:03 <ehird> based on the pressure you apply
05:46:22 <ehird> mount a keyboard and mouse on it
05:46:34 <ehird> also, add in a full surround sound setup
05:47:02 <coppro> that would be awesome, but would you use a spherical screen?
05:47:26 <ehird> well, the world isn't spherical, so that would be useless
05:47:31 <ehird> when you go outside
05:47:45 <ehird> a circular room would be fine if it curved into the ceiling and floor
05:47:50 <ehird> since the sky and ground are... basically flat.
05:47:52 <coppro> (presumably you mount the projectors on the outer ring of the frame?
05:48:04 <ehird> somewhere on the ceiling, yeah
05:48:11 <ehird> same with the surround sound speakers
05:48:15 <ehird> and, presumably, the hardware
05:48:22 <coppro> ehird: I meant the frame that the chair is mounted to
05:48:26 <coppro> also, speakers in the walls
05:48:32 <ehird> you couldn't rotate that way
05:48:35 <ehird> (the mounting to chair)
05:48:47 <ehird> mount to the ceiling
05:48:53 <ehird> so you can look normally
05:48:56 <coppro> ehird: the chair has to have one fixed mount
05:49:11 <ehird> coppro: also, speakers in the walls will be bad quality, the wall will muffle them
05:49:13 <coppro> to get 360 degree rotation
05:49:24 <coppro> ehird: there are speakers designed to use the surface as the wall to amplify the sound
05:49:36 <ehird> anyway, ceiling and floor vision is kinda useless
05:49:41 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope
05:49:45 <ehird> i mean, okay, the floor makes it more immersive
05:49:49 <ehird> but who looks up at the sky in a game?
05:49:52 <ehird> just make it blue-ish
05:50:00 <coppro> you mount the projectors on the fixed frame
05:50:08 <coppro> so they are in the middle of the room
05:50:20 <ehird> the chair doesn't really need 360 degree motion
05:50:24 <ehird> it just needs to be strap-in
05:50:33 <coppro> I think just rotation would be fine
05:50:34 <ehird> an actual chair would just be awkward with all of this
05:50:39 <ehird> coppro: by strap-in, you'd be vertical, ofc
05:51:04 <ehird> haha, lol, were you imagining doing a loop while sitting down
05:51:10 <ehird> "FUCK. YOU. GRAVITY!"
05:51:16 <ehird> "I'm going to sit upside down!"
05:51:26 <coppro> ehird: with force-feedback points attached all over the body :D
05:51:33 <ehird> now that may be going too far :P
05:51:42 <ehird> coppro: anyway, it's more awesome vertical as it means you can make the enemies real size
05:51:48 <ehird> what about when the enemy gets right next to you
05:51:51 <ehird> it'd appear meters away
05:51:51 <coppro> but like, on the arms and legs
05:51:57 <ehird> (note: WE ARE NOT DOING 3D HOLOGRAMS)
05:52:17 <ehird> coppro: 3d glasses make you lose colour
05:52:22 <ehird> everything's gray and washed out
05:52:24 <ehird> at least, red/blue ones
05:52:30 <ehird> the shutter ones give you a headache, no?
05:52:47 <coppro> I've used shutter ones, not a big deal imo
05:53:01 <ehird> The difficulty arises because light reflected from a motion picture screen tends to lose a bit of its polarization. However, this problem is eliminated if a 'silver' or Aluminized screen is used. This means that a pair of aligned DLP projectors, some polarizing filters, a silver screen, and a computer with a dual-head graphics card can be used to form a relatively low-cost (under US$10 000 in 2003) system for displaying stereosco
05:53:04 <ehird> coppro: not immersive
05:53:08 <ehird> anyway, what's the disadvantage
05:53:11 <ehird> do polarizing ones blink too
05:53:25 <coppro> and you don't notice the blink
05:53:29 <ehird> do they retain full colour and brightness?
05:53:46 <coppro> ehird: probably not full brightness
05:54:18 <coppro> but that can be dealt with easy
05:54:24 <ehird> come to think of it, if an enemy's that close to you, you're fucked anyway :P
05:54:40 <ehird> just make the screen wrap to the floor
05:54:52 <ehird> "If you see someone lying down, YOU ARE ABOUT TO DIE"
05:55:19 <coppro> but imagine you have like rubber-like cables attached to your arms, and they can be made more or less stretchy depending on the current applied to them
05:55:31 <coppro> so you can get variable resistance
05:55:49 <ehird> btw, what does this projection set up have that's better than a bunch of small screens in a circle mounted almost to fit your head?
05:55:51 <coppro> we should patent this :P
05:56:02 <ehird> apart from being less immersive and not letting things get close enough
05:56:17 <ehird> (think Data, but mounted so you can turn around)
05:56:28 <ehird> coppro: wtf, having a ring around your head that covers your whole vision is totally awesome :P
05:56:42 <coppro> other people could watch?
05:56:57 <ehird> they'd block your vision
05:57:58 <ehird> anyway, the chair idea of this is definitely the most interesting part I thin
05:58:35 <ehird> how would that help
05:58:46 <ehird> not having to mount them?
05:58:49 <ehird> that's kinda minor
05:59:05 <ehird> you can't get circular panels to rear project on
05:59:06 <coppro> ehird: prevents the projectors from having to deal with objects in the room
05:59:20 <ehird> we have an infinite budget, but it can't be used on research
05:59:26 <ehird> otherwise we can make anything that's physically possible
05:59:32 <ehird> it's more fun to have that constraint
05:59:47 <ehird> people will always block your vision
05:59:52 <coppro> I don't think rear-projection requires a special screen anyways
06:00:25 <coppro> ehird: yes, but they won't block the projector's line of fire. People blocking vision = semi-realistic (not for objects at close distances, but it works for objects far away). Projector shadows = fail
06:00:41 <ehird> if an enemy's coming at you at that angle...
06:00:49 <coppro> btw, 3d holograms are totally awesome
06:00:52 <ehird> so it's unrealistic, so it doesn't matter what happens then
06:00:54 <ehird> coppro: *impractical
06:00:59 <ehird> hmm, maybe the circular thing is cheating already
06:01:04 <ehird> there aren't any games that let you look behind you like that
06:01:29 <coppro> if we do 3d, we can make do with an easier geometry (hexagon)
06:01:49 <ehird> reality isn't hexagonal
06:01:51 <ehird> http://www.simprojects.nl/multi_projector.htm
06:01:57 <ehird> unsurprisingly, it's to run a flight simulator
06:02:10 <ehird> every-fucking-thing that's about displays and is wildly excessive is about flight simulators
06:02:23 <ehird> they're not even fun!
06:02:29 <coppro> ehird: you can fake it with the 3d effect
06:02:37 <ehird> coppro: not seamless, lame
06:02:40 <ehird> you could just use screens
06:02:47 <coppro> ehird: why isn't it seamless?
06:02:53 <ehird> because reality isn't circular
06:03:33 <coppro> reality isn't circular meaning...?
06:03:59 <ehird> in a hexagonal room, it'd be boring
06:04:03 <ehird> besides, you can do hexagonal with displays
06:04:06 <ehird> so it's very boring
06:04:37 <ehird> hexagonal is the suck
06:07:37 <ehird> http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_motion_platform_iii.htm
06:07:41 <ehird> pitch, roll and raw computer setup
06:07:43 <ehird> this guy is insane
06:07:48 <ehird> coppro: btw, where would the computer go?
06:07:54 <ehird> I assume the cables run above the chair into the ceiling
06:07:59 <ehird> and the computer's there
06:08:06 <coppro> floor seems better imo
06:08:23 <ehird> how would that possibly work
06:08:35 <coppro> computers are on the next floor down
06:08:50 <ehird> why, as opposed to the ceiling?
06:09:01 <coppro> because you are probably attaching stuff to the floor already
06:09:14 <coppro> easier to anchor to the floor than the ceiling
06:09:28 <ehird> you don't need an anchor
06:09:40 <coppro> if you want motors to power anything you do
06:09:58 <ehird> Depends on the projector lenses (standard focal lengths would be too long), and the optics involved. With correct optics, you could have each projector only have a 23" image on a screen. Theoretically you could even project such an image onto a cylindrical or hemispherical surface like a personal IMAX assuming you had the correct lenses and such.
06:10:05 <ehird> http://videoscreens.net/curved%20screens.htm
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06:19:27 <ehird> .NET can only interop with .dlls, I think
06:21:40 <coppro> then compile a DLL version of your... oh wait, DLLs require special code
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06:25:31 <ehird> coppro: no, it's just that I want a single-file solution
06:25:47 <ehird> well, rather, reader + docs if any + plugin
06:26:03 <ehird> I'll probably use WTL, then
06:26:17 <coppro> no way to combine the .NET and non-.NET code into one DLL?
06:26:21 <ehird> It shouldn't be too much of a pain for a simple UI- oh, hm, I just realised something
06:26:35 <ehird> I can't use WinForms easily anyway, because netscape plugins are C/C++
06:26:48 <ehird> I mean, I could call into the .NET gui from the plugin
06:26:55 <ehird> coppro: that'd still be .dll + .exe
06:27:00 <ehird> but I'll just use WTL or whatever
06:27:24 * ehird looks at the notepad2 source code
06:27:27 <ehird> might be an inspiration
06:27:38 <ehird> also, I can't use stock MinGW, I think
06:27:45 <ehird> it doesn't do 64-bit binaries :(
06:28:30 * coppro wonders how difficult building an Okular plugin for firefox would be
06:28:43 <ehird> for the netscape plugin api
06:28:50 <ehird> (firefox has no separate plugin mechanism)
06:29:03 <ehird> then it'll work with firefox, safari, chrome, ... I think Opera too
06:29:51 <ehird> but yeah, I'm really just trying to make something as good as OS X's Preview standalone and Safari's PDF in the browser for Windows
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06:30:32 <ehird> Safari's PDF is wonderfully simple; it's just the PDF, there, you can use Safari's regular zoom controls and the only UI is, if you hover near the bottom, a semi-transparent black HUD-type thing with a view outline icons fades in
06:30:51 <ehird> it's just two buttons for zoom in/zoom out, an "open in Preview" button, and a download button
06:31:36 <ehird> and the whole PDF is rendered instantly, all at once
06:31:58 <ehird> an awesome thing Snow Leopard added is, if a PDF is formatted into columns, it (presumably using a heuristic), when selecting, just uses that column
06:32:01 <ehird> as opposed to going over the others
06:32:10 * coppro is not sure if he prefers rendering the whole thing or not
06:32:14 <ehird> = you can finally copy from those &*^#$*&& two-column LaTeX papers
06:32:22 <ehird> coppro: when it's instant, it's obviously better
06:32:32 <coppro> ehird: instant entire document is not always an option
06:32:41 <ehird> try safari then tell me that :)
06:33:06 <ehird> it's only ever slow when "converting" (executing) one of those silly computing postscript programs
06:33:14 <coppro> ehird: I'll believe it can do most documents pretty fast. I would be exceedingly surprised if it could render the C++0x draft standard in under a second
06:33:34 <ehird> i'd have to reboot, but I can give you a pretty good guess
06:34:03 <coppro> oh wait, I'm exaggerating
06:34:13 <coppro> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2009/n2914.pdf
06:34:38 <ehird> also, have you ever come across one of those .dvis converted to pdf?
06:34:44 <ehird> always with the uber-smudgy, uncopiable text
06:35:28 <coppro> ehird: depends on the converter
06:35:37 <coppro> the one that comes with Ubuntu's TeX does it right
06:35:42 <ehird> yes, but have you come across one like that?
06:35:48 <ehird> especially from ACM sites
06:35:59 <ehird> coppro: I estimate Safari would render that in about four-five seconds
06:36:08 <ehird> if you have a slow computer and it's a bad day, maybe 7-8, tops
06:36:11 <coppro> the worst though are MS word ones
06:36:15 <ehird> and it pops up a little discreet progress bar while rendering
06:36:23 <ehird> so I don't think it's really a problem
06:36:36 <ehird> coppro: anyway, I have an insane planned fix for that
06:36:52 <ehird> recognize lines and their thickness in it (sort of like what captcha-breaking software does)
06:37:00 <ehird> convert this to a vector image, except
06:37:05 <ehird> if there's just really minor variation in the thickness
06:37:08 <ehird> normalise it to one value
06:37:15 <ehird> then render it at any size
06:37:21 <ehird> voila, smudgy text becomes scalable
06:37:22 <coppro> the problem with whole-document rendering is the memory a big document will take up
06:37:34 <ehird> how much ram have you got?
06:37:52 <coppro> but it can be a problem
06:38:05 <ehird> how many copies of the c++0x standard do you open a day?
06:38:12 <coppro> ehird: quite often, actually
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06:38:17 <ehird> how many at once, I mean
06:38:44 <ehird> coppro: c++0x, the file, is 9mb
06:38:56 <ehird> I'll try and get sumatra to render it all
06:39:26 <ehird> lightweight windows pdf reader
06:39:55 <ehird> coppro: groan @ the first page warning on c++0x
06:40:54 <ehird> sumatra, it seems, won't render it all at once
06:41:18 <ehird> but really, at the very maximum, say adobe reader 11.72 or something, I bet that c++0x fully rendered, plus all the application baggage, cannot possibly be more than 400MB
06:41:29 <ehird> for a lightweight reader, say 100MB
06:41:50 <coppro> especially for my system, with little real ram and too much swap
06:41:54 <ehird> you almost certainly have 2-4GB of ram, and it's a very unusually large document; is a hundred meg or two unacceptable?
06:42:05 <coppro> (new computer has more ram, yay)
06:42:32 <ehird> I mean, I just don't see a situation on any sort of modern computer where you must open C++0x all the time and yet never have 200MB of RAM free
06:42:35 <coppro> in any case, I'm not really trying to defend anything, so it's a pointless debate
06:42:56 <ehird> one thing you can do when rendering all at once is display pages as they render
06:43:04 <ehird> that way, a pdf always opens instantly when you click
06:43:11 <coppro> but RAM is seriously the limiting factor of speed on this thing
06:43:14 <ehird> (apart from download time, but again you can do it incrementally)
06:43:20 <ehird> coppro: how much has it got? what computer is it?
06:43:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes, 12gb of it
06:44:04 <coppro> ehird: it's an old Dell latitude. I forget how much it actually has on sticks, but it's small enough that swapping kills performance when large amounts of ram are gobbled up
06:44:19 <coppro> granted, a link is special because it needs access to all that RAM at once
06:44:26 <ehird> takes two seconds to find out how much ram you have :P
06:44:58 <ehird> I had 1GB in here until december 08, actually
06:45:02 <ehird> 2.5 is noticably snappier
06:45:14 <ehird> you should have gone for 4
06:45:28 <ehird> 3 isn't much better than 2
06:45:30 <ehird> but 4 is a lot better
06:45:39 <ehird> 3 vs 4 is like $10
06:45:42 <ehird> coppro: don't ask me
06:47:14 <coppro> anyway, the other big thing is a non-ATI graphics card
06:47:25 <ehird> good thing or bad thing
06:47:33 <coppro> ATI linux drivers = the stains
06:47:38 <ehird> coppro: are you replacing an ATI card in your current machine
06:47:42 <ehird> with an intel one in your new one?
06:47:43 <coppro> ehird: no, new machine
06:47:55 <ehird> your current machine has ATI
06:48:01 <ehird> your new machine has intel
06:48:06 <ehird> coppro: LOLOLOLOLOLOLO
06:48:10 <ehird> the intel drivers for linux suck shit
06:48:11 <coppro> I don't want a high-power card
06:48:16 <ehird> you can't even do stuff full screen
06:48:20 <ehird> that xkcd about full screen flash wasn't a joke
06:48:33 <coppro> dammit really? I thought... dammit
06:48:47 <ehird> it's getting better, but... you just downgraded as far as linux is concerned
06:48:49 <ehird> give it a few months :\
06:48:55 <coppro> it can't be much worse than ATI
06:49:04 <ehird> ATI drivers are pretty good these days...
06:49:30 <ehird> I know this because I have an ATI card in this machine and it's always worked absolutely perfectly and fast with linux. :P
06:49:43 <ehird> right, 'cuz it's old :P
06:49:57 <coppro> OSS driver hates me, and... well.. FGLRX
06:50:08 <ehird> has always worked for me
06:50:34 <ehird> hmm, it seems that notepad2 is built with visual studio
06:50:46 <ehird> well, visual c++ 7
06:50:54 <ehird> probably *coded* with notepad2
06:50:56 <coppro> whenever I try to do anything more graphics-intensive than, say, glxgears
06:51:12 <ehird> your new intel card will solve that, nothing more intensive will run :-P
06:51:21 <ehird> i'm teasing, it isn't _that_ bad
06:51:44 <ehird> although full screen youtube is still a no-no
06:51:53 <ehird> which is probably a good thing for your IQ
06:52:08 <coppro> the only stuff I use youtube for is music
06:52:14 <ehird> anyway, the discrete graphics versions cost more and you can't get base configurations (so they're higher apart from the card)
06:52:16 <coppro> and there's no need for full screen or even a screen at all
06:52:23 <ehird> plus they're heavier, and have less battery life while on the card
06:52:30 <ehird> so you probably made the right choice
06:53:03 <coppro> though hybrid graphics sound appealing (I somehow suspect Linux doesn't have support for that though)
06:53:45 * ehird tries to find a T60p review that has the 14" model
06:55:10 <ehird> the T43 is prettier than the T60, but I need my dual core :
06:55:20 <ehird> also, more than 2GB of RAM.
06:56:21 <coppro> you know what else I've discovered about Linux and bad drivers?
06:56:30 <coppro> Linux can't suspend to USB
06:56:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: thinkpad
06:56:51 <coppro> ehird: my current hard drive is USB
06:56:59 <ehird> jesus fucking christ
06:57:11 <ehird> i must confiscate that laptop immediately
06:57:14 <ehird> you are no longer allowed to use it
06:57:48 <coppro> tbh, the speed isn't much different
06:58:01 <ehird> USB has awful speed and awful latency
06:58:06 <ehird> you mean the actual speed of operations
06:58:12 <ehird> and that's just because HDs are the bottleneck anyway
06:58:21 <ehird> and that's why my notebook will be blessed with an SSD!
06:58:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "operations"
06:59:25 <ehird> but latency is what matters
06:59:41 <coppro> it's a temporary solution and it's not worth my pry apart this drive and put this on the internal mount
06:59:47 <coppro> and I don't really notice a problem
07:00:21 <ehird> at least every app you have is a portable app :P
07:00:43 * coppro wonders what my school would do if I booted off this
07:00:51 <coppro> (on a school computer)
07:01:05 <ehird> freak at the error screen because you don't have the drivers
07:01:49 <ehird> freak at the desktop and tell you to put it back
07:02:27 <ehird> some school you go to
07:05:52 <coppro> public school board (:
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07:17:10 <coppro> why is video game music so awesome?
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08:12:35 <ehird> ouch. notepad2 is totally c apart from a c++ file to wrap scintilla
08:12:38 <ehird> no way am i reading win32 code
08:12:51 <ehird> it even seems it constructs the gui in code
08:20:25 <ehird> an argument for rendering pdfs all in one go: search is quicker
08:22:41 <ehird> right, I'm going to use MinGW, C/C++ and... something for the gui
08:36:23 <ehird> http://www.drangon.org/mingw/
08:36:40 <ehird> actually you know what, i don't give a shit about making an x64 binary
08:36:43 <ehird> it's a fucking pdf reader
08:37:35 <ehird> "Oh joy, you do not have c:/MinGW/bin/make.exe. Keep it that way." --MSYS postinstall
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09:03:20 <ehird> "Evil is a library that tries to implement for Windows some Unix function that do not exist on the evil Microsoft platform." // damn that's some mature naming scheme
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09:32:44 <ehird> ok, chatzilla seems acceptable like this
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09:41:58 <ehird> alright, if I can get messages highlighting me to not show up in the server tab I'll be perfectly happ
09:45:21 <ehird> chatzilla users: rheet
09:45:24 <ehird> an interesting feature...
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09:52:44 <ehird> oh, I disabled that earlier
09:52:47 <ehird> still only one thing to fix...
09:53:14 <ehird> ah, an easy preference change
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09:54:40 * ehird tentatively tries Pidgin and sighs as he can't find a good damn Im client
09:58:08 <ehird> oh great, gtk menus on windows are... wait for it... non-native-behaving
09:58:24 <ehird> i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly
09:58:42 <Deewiant> Is this your first time using Windows or something? :-P
09:58:51 <ehird> it happens on OS X too
09:58:57 <ehird> it just irritates me every single time
09:59:03 <ehird> because I know someone spent hours on that
09:59:08 <ehird> and they failed, terribly
09:59:25 <ehird> but seriously, the pidgin menus look like windows classic's
09:59:29 <ehird> the menu contents that is
09:59:52 <ehird> the menu looks like a regular win7 menu, except with more vertical padding and instead of an indent, the items get a blue background
10:01:08 <ehird> "Hide new IM conversations: [ Never | When Away | Always ]
10:01:12 <ehird> [ ] Minimize new conversation windows"
10:01:22 <ehird> What the flying fuck is the difference..........
10:02:04 <ehird> Fuck this, it's clear every pidgin developer uses windows 2000 or something
10:02:11 <ehird> That is every pidgin developer that uses windows
10:03:38 <ehird> All this fuss and in the end the only extra programs I have so far are Microsoft Security Essentials, Google Chrome, Flash, Sumatra PDF, and ChatZilla
10:03:45 <ehird> Because all the others suck.
10:03:59 <ehird> See, that's the nice thing about a platform nobody uses
10:04:06 <ehird> There's far less software, and so far less sucking software
10:11:08 <ehird> Deewiant: you wouldn't happen to know of an unarchiver that doesn't try and be a file manager, would you?
10:11:11 <ehird> even 7zip does that crap
10:11:59 <Deewiant> Does it matter? You don't have to use it as a file manager
10:13:33 <ehird> Deewiant: It's kind of annoying viewing files in Explorer one second and then using 7zip's crap file interface the next
10:14:00 <ehird> I wonder if it's really hard to hook into Explorer or something; seems like there'd be something like the built-in "compressed folders" for multiple formats.
10:17:38 <Deewiant> Just use the shell extension and right-click -> extract here, or whatever
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10:18:11 <ehird> That's not actually anything like compressed folders; you can dig in them without extracting.
10:18:36 <Deewiant> Yes, I know, but it saves you from the "crap file interface" at least.
10:18:38 <ehird> It's marginally better than clicking extract in the 7zip file manager, but annoying because you can't view the contents without extracting.
10:20:00 <AnMaster> I see I was highlighted by ehird. Interesting.
10:20:19 <ehird> I don't even remember what it was for; now I get to read it too!
10:20:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: yo, M_PI is non-standard. <-- hm. Will have to check that.
10:21:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I got cfunge almost linking with Cygwin.
10:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, nop, it is in POSIX, just checked
10:21:49 <ehird> Well, it at least isn't in Cygwin
10:22:00 <ehird> I needed only a few changes to get it to compile but not link, btw.
10:22:11 <Deewiant> I tried to get cfunge to work on Cygwin and IIRC didn't succeed.
10:22:21 <ehird> Linking problem was that PE has no visibility stuff, and so every "static" was ignored, which caused SCKE and SOCK to both have two functions from winsock stuff.
10:22:36 <AnMaster> ehird, about the winsock thing: I have no fucking clue either. All I use are some standard functions for converting between system-endianness and network-endianness
10:22:47 <ehird> Yes, those were what were both defined
10:22:57 <ehird> I guess they're defined in the header file, for some perverse reason
10:23:02 <ehird> Not sure how to fix that, the rest is pretty trivial though
10:23:17 <AnMaster> ehird, on glibc they are defined as inline asm if gcc is used iirc. :D
10:23:31 <ehird> There's a drop-in getaddrinfo implementation that you can just #include and link to, and you have to define M_PI
10:23:37 <AnMaster> ehird, but weren't they static inline?
10:23:46 <ehird> 10:22<ehird>Linking problem was that PE has no visibility stuff, and so every "static" was ignored, which caused SCKE and SOCK to both have two functions from winsock stuff.
10:24:07 <ehird> I'm not sure how it works on non-cygwin. I was using gcc 4, which I guess isn't very maintained on cygwin.
10:24:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, the ccmake was ludicrously slow; spawning processes really is expensive.
10:24:33 <AnMaster> ehird, aren't there already other duplicate name, different files stuff?
10:24:33 <ehird> Like, it took about 7 seconds to get to 18%.
10:24:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Like what?
10:24:49 <Deewiant> ehird: That's better than autotools
10:24:51 <AnMaster> ehird, cmake here it takes like 5 seconds in total
10:24:55 <Deewiant> ./configure --help is typically about 20 seconds
10:25:05 <Deewiant> A complete ./configure, about 20 minutes.
10:25:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, I tried the ./configure included with the getaddrinfo; took like a minute to finish
10:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: What do you mean about duplicate name?
10:25:32 <AnMaster> heh, I shall have to include that then ;P
10:25:34 <ehird> But anyway, it's slow because process spawning is slow on Windows.
10:25:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, configure is slow even on linux..., often a minute or so
10:26:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I might write a patch or a few to get it working on Cygwin if I can be bothered and you'll commit them
10:26:07 <ehird> not that I want to use cygwin or anything
10:26:11 <AnMaster> ehird, the former is C99, the latter is POSIX
10:26:16 <Deewiant> Rule of thumb: on Windows it's about 50-100 times slower than on Linux
10:26:19 <ehird> Yes, well, Cygwin doesn't have the former
10:26:29 <Deewiant> If a ./configure takes a minute on Linux, it'll take an hour on Windows.
10:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, just telling you that _Exit is *in theory* more portable ;P
10:26:41 <ehird> There's probably some sort of KillWithExtremePrejudiceExExEx.
10:27:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, think about ./configure for GCC, LLVM, Apache or some other huge project
10:27:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, would you commit said patches?
10:27:37 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, that's what I replaced it with
10:27:44 <AnMaster> ehird, depends, I'll have to review them, And the _Exit() vs. _exit() in general would make it less portable, I might however add a cmake test and fall back on the other or such
10:27:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, I was talking about average-sized projects.
10:27:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Of course, I'd add cmake tests for everything
10:28:13 <ehird> It'd just be a few different lines of code, and some extra source files in lib/
10:28:14 <Deewiant> For those, you'll indeed have to ./configure for an hour.
10:28:16 <ehird> AnMaster: Cygwin provides that, obviously
10:28:16 <AnMaster> also, make sure it actually works for mycology
10:28:23 <ehird> I will, once the damn thing links
10:28:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what would the stuff in lib be?
10:28:42 <ehird> I could just use CCBI, but it's more fun to subvert the "WINDOWS COULD NEVER POSSIBLY SUPPORT POSIX HARD ENOUGH"
10:28:48 <Deewiant> They also tend to have sub-projects wherein make invokes configure and >_<
10:28:58 <ehird> AnMaster: The implementation of getaddrinfo, which Cygwin inexplicably doesn't have.
10:29:10 <ehird> It's BSD-licensed or somesuch, so no worries linking the .o.
10:29:32 <ehird> How much does cfunge fork()?
10:29:52 <Deewiant> How much do you think if it's performance-optimized to the point of ludicrousness? :-P
10:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, only in PERL fingerprint
10:30:03 <ehird> fork()'s cheap on unix
10:30:06 <ehird> AnMaster: That should be fine then.
10:30:13 <Deewiant> It's still relatively expensive
10:30:15 <ehird> Also, I just want to say one thing about Cygwin.
10:30:27 <ehird> SETUP.EXE HAS THE WORST POSSIBLE PACKAGE MANAGING UI OUT OF ALL POSSIBLE UIS FOR THAT PURPOSE
10:30:28 <AnMaster> ehird, in PERL fingerprint it does weird stuff with pipes and file descriptors btw
10:30:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Cygwin should handle it.
10:30:52 <ehird> Deewiant: No, seriously, that thing is fucking awful
10:30:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> SETUP.EXE HAS THE WORST POSSIBLE PACKAGE MANAGING UI OUT OF ALL POSSIBLE UIS FOR THAT PURPOSE <-- so it is still as bad as back when I used it a few years ago then. heh
10:31:06 <ehird> Apparently "setup.exe -q -P pkg1,pkg2" should install stuff, but it doesn't
10:31:18 <ehird> AnMaster: It'd also be nice if the programs were newer than 34573485735 years old
10:31:28 <AnMaster> I didn't know about the CLI either
10:31:32 <ehird> Deewiant: Not officially, it's still experimental and we won't document it and if you use it we will kill you
10:31:36 <ehird> Note: The above sentiment was expressed on the mailing list
10:31:45 <ehird> Cygwin is fucking dead
10:32:11 <AnMaster> ehird, not odd... windows + cygwin works worse than linux + wine
10:32:24 <ehird> But the only other thing providing fork() and mmap() shit is MSYS, which is just a fork of an ancient cygwin and only supports gcc 2 or something to compile MSYS executables and is only aimed at using as a shell/utils.
10:32:52 <ehird> It'd be quite easy to add fork() to the Windows kernel, wouldn't it?
10:32:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what about Microsoft's own POSIX implementation thingy
10:32:58 <ehird> I mean, a process is just a structure in memory.
10:33:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Interix? That thing's ancient, innit?
10:33:25 <ehird> "GCC 3.3 compiler, includes and libraries"
10:33:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hey you aren't oerjan
10:33:47 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, I only tested cfunge on gcc 3.4 and later
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10:34:36 <ehird> I'd just like to take the time to endorse some non-Cygwin software that I haven't used for anything yet but must be better than Cygwin because anything is: Xming, MinGW, GnuWin32 (http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/)
10:34:59 <ehird> Alternative to last one: MSYS (it's okay because you can't add packages or anything.)
10:35:29 <ehird> DJGPP. It doesn't do fork() or anything.
10:35:36 <ehird> But it's for DOS, and meh.
10:35:53 <fizzie> You can get GCC 4.2 on Interix from http://debian-interix.net/
10:36:18 <ehird> AnMaster: No, MinGW doesn't provide any sort of POSIX API
10:36:20 <ehird> Windows does, though
10:36:47 <ehird> MinGW is just a compiler
10:36:50 <ehird> It happens to be gcc
10:36:57 <Deewiant> It's also free Windows headers
10:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what CFLAGS are you using?
10:37:06 <ehird> It compiles Windows executables with the Windows libraries, which include libc and some POSIX stuff
10:37:10 <ehird> It includes headers for these libaries
10:37:17 <ehird> AnMaster: The release ones
10:37:24 <ehird> I'll install cygwin again and try and make this crap work
10:37:40 <fizzie> Oh, and a separate gcc-4.2 from http://www.suacommunity.com/
10:37:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Don't remember if that includes -O3. Try -O3, because possibly that will make gcc inline that htons() stuff, which will prevent those functions from being emitted at all
10:37:50 <ehird> I basically know what to do, but don't know how to fix the SCKE/SOCK problem.
10:38:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I could just #define static inline before including sockets :-P
10:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, oh so they are static but not inline?
10:38:41 <AnMaster> also I'm sure that would break stuff in cfunge.
10:38:41 <ehird> I mean, they go in the final .o
10:38:57 <AnMaster> ehird, becuase iirc SOCK and SCKE includes some static variables
10:39:03 <AnMaster> and inline variable makes no sense
10:39:07 <ehird> I'd #undef static afterwards, duh
10:39:15 <ehird> Also, we could totally make inline variables make sense.
10:39:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah by #define inline static :P
10:39:40 <ehird> They are inlined at their first use, and assigning to them modifies the machine code in that function
10:39:43 <ehird> To have the different value
10:39:58 <ehird> They're accessed from inside that function's machine code too
10:40:33 <fizzie> You could inline them at every use, and made assignment modify all the use locations.
10:40:38 <AnMaster> ehird, you would need to determine first use at runtime
10:40:52 <ehird> fizzie: Oh, that's much better
10:41:19 * ehird downloads PuTTY, because it'll surely come in handy later.
10:41:20 <fizzie> It would be nice to have "x=5" expand to 200 code self-modifications.
10:41:41 <ehird> oh man, that'd be great
10:41:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume this will be one diff for each separate fix, rather than some huge mixed up diff?
10:42:19 <Deewiant> I assume you assume incorrectly
10:42:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Does bzr work on Windows?
10:42:47 <ehird> I'll just make bzr commits then
10:42:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, hey, it would even be useful in some cases, like when a variable is assigned very seldom, but read a lot
10:43:12 <AnMaster> like allocating a block depending on command line options or so
10:43:14 <ehird> Yes, because memory reads are so expensive :-P
10:43:30 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, but you can save a few clock cycles on it
10:43:37 <ehird> You'd lose more time combined changing 1000 parts of memory
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10:44:03 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw, is this 64-bit windows?
10:44:14 <ehird> Yes, but Cygwin is 32-bit afaik.
10:44:35 <ehird> All the programs I've installed are 32-bit :P
10:44:42 <ehird> Including the antivirus...
10:45:01 <ehird> (Which is some beta from Microsoft that I had to get from softpedia or something because apparently my country isn't invited)
10:45:32 <ehird> But it uses barely any megs and if it breaks I can blame microsoft
10:45:41 <ehird> Microsoft Security Essentials
10:45:47 <ehird> It also does antimalware and stuff
10:46:11 <Deewiant> Is that the former Windows Defender?
10:46:13 <fizzie> "Inline variables" like that aren't especially uncommon in hand-crafted assembly, for example in cases where you have some sort of configurable behaviour in a loop; it's cheaper to have a constant jmp instruction, whose operand is modified, than a separate variable with a load + indirect-jump in the loop.
10:46:25 <ehird> Deewiant: it uses the same definitions and everything
10:47:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: Depends. The Intel manuals warn against modifying code within 1KB (IIRC) of the modifying code
10:47:53 <ehird> Deewiant: I think it's more an extended Windows Defender for, you know, extended purposes.
10:47:58 <Deewiant> If you have sufficiently few iterations it may be cheaper to do the load and allow the branch predictor to handle the jump
10:48:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, well, modern architectures are confusing. I was talking more about 6502 and z80 assembly, where you can just count cycles, and everything's very obvious.
10:48:47 <AnMaster> ehird, is there any predefined define to see if you run under cygwin btw?
10:48:51 <Deewiant> Yes; if your CPU is just a blind interpreter then sure, that's faster :-)
10:48:59 <ehird> AnMaster: #ifdef __GNU__ :-P
10:49:25 <ehird> Eh, since you're talking about it I'll do it
10:49:54 <ehird> Anyone know of a lightweight programming editor for windows with a file tree list sidebar thingy?
10:50:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well, make sure it actually works first ;P
10:50:06 <ehird> Just to hack this up as opposed to futzing with WordPad (which now looks like Word) and Explorer.
10:50:17 <ehird> Of course it won't, out of the box
10:50:19 <ehird> I'll have to patch it
10:50:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I was talking about the SOCK stuff
10:50:57 <ehird> AnMaster: is it okay if I make it do dirty, dirty things if it's conditioned to only do it on cygwin?
10:51:07 <ehird> Like compiling SOCK and SCKE in one go to the same .o, say...
10:51:23 <AnMaster> ehird, how the hell would you do that under cmake?
10:51:52 <ehird> I added the getaddrinfo object file as a "linker option" and commented out the checks for it; that's how build-system hostile I've been :-P
10:52:04 <ehird> Also, I almost gave up when I realised I'd have to install cmake. :-P
10:52:20 <AnMaster> ehird, just add it conditionally to the cfunge sources
10:52:35 <ehird> Probably for the best, yes
10:52:38 <ehird> It needs a define, though
10:52:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't that violate gpl3?
10:52:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you *could* run gcc manually. I've done it on an openbsd box once
10:52:53 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't bsd GPL compatible?
10:53:04 <ehird> Yes, but your GPL code will try and infect the BSD code
10:53:24 <ehird> I'm not entirely sure how the viral stuff works because it's an incredibly ill-defined concept.
10:53:34 <AnMaster> well, in the linked result it will be GPL, but not in the source file?
10:54:16 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, I was doing it on cfunge 0.9.0
10:54:19 <ehird> how outdated is that?
10:54:50 <AnMaster> ehird, hm last release. let me check how many revisions ago
10:55:08 <ehird> Also, I'm going to bemuse the ChatZilla users who aren't ChatZilla in-the-know kind of people some more: rheet rheet rheet
10:55:14 <AnMaster> ehird, just a few revisions ago, and the stuff after was pretty minor changes
10:55:23 <AnMaster> some typo fixes in comments and such
10:55:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Let's hope the cygwin bzr is new enough
10:55:50 <ehird> I'm about to download setup.exe
10:56:37 <ehird> I'll use gcc 3 this time
10:57:07 <AnMaster> ehird, bzr 0.92 or later is absolutely required due to repo file format. But I would definitely recommend something more like 1.6 or later
10:57:55 <ehird> That's surprisingly recent for cygwin :P
10:58:01 <ehird> It also has gcc 4.3 on the 4 package
10:58:04 <AnMaster> indeed, I think 1.18 is out now though
10:58:33 <ehird> Alright, as they say in the vernacular, let's do this shit
10:58:55 <ehird> Installing cygwin, will then bzr myself some cfunge and sit bemused at bzr's interface
10:59:07 <ehird> That is as far as I have planned
10:59:09 * AnMaster wonders what is the probability of ehird publishing it as a launchpad branch
10:59:27 <ehird> Out of 1, naturally
10:59:49 <AnMaster> ehird, about copyright, I wonder if I should do like fsf here ;P
11:00:06 <ehird> I guess if 0 is "certain that it won't happen", -1 is "certain that its negative will happen".
11:00:15 <ehird> Then 2 is... certain it will happen... twice
11:00:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think I can agree to contracts
11:00:45 <ehird> Guess I can't contribute then!
11:01:00 <AnMaster> well I guess you can. I just wonder...
11:01:32 <AnMaster> ...if you or me will be most irritated by you being listed in CREDITS ;P
11:02:30 <ehird> Just spell my name Elliot and ensure that I stay more annoyed
11:02:35 <ehird> (Note: DO NOT DO THIS)
11:02:52 <ehird> No, that's too incorrect to annoy me, somehow
11:03:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ah it is Elliot Hird then?
11:03:16 <ehird> Sure, AnMaster. Whatever you say.
11:03:30 <ehird> I hear it's Ellio Turd.
11:04:06 <AnMaster> jul 19 22:24:43 <ehird> Defining Features of the Welsh, by Elliott Hird
11:04:11 <AnMaster> found the correct spelling in logs
11:04:35 <ehird> Wait, you were joking, right?
11:04:50 <ehird> Not knowing my name
11:04:55 <ehird> Also, I wonder what the heck the context was there
11:05:22 <ehird> Oh, sex with sheep
11:05:25 <ehird> Also lack of vowels
11:05:30 <ehird> Common staples of #esoteric both
11:05:40 <ehird> Or is it stables? I don't actually know
11:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well I know it in general, but not the exact spelling. If you had a normal name like Ekblom or Svensson or Östergren it would have been easier :P
11:06:28 <ehird> my name is actually ingvar kamprad
11:06:40 <AnMaster> kamprad isn't very common in Sweden either.
11:07:27 <ehird> people usually just call me random swedish words in all-capitals though.
11:07:29 <AnMaster> ehird, Especially "Svensson" is the Swedish equivalent of "Smith"
11:07:56 <ehird> AnMaster: what's the command to grab myself some latest cfunge?
11:08:31 <ehird> good news: gcc 3 here seems to not warn on static
11:08:41 <ehird> so the SCKE/SOCK problem might not exist!
11:09:12 <AnMaster> since I changed to use launchpad nowdays
11:09:25 <ehird> Creepy vendor support there :-P
11:09:39 <ehird> Yep, that seems to be working
11:09:46 <AnMaster> ehird, question of not having my own server any more, and if I should go for launchpad of sf.net
11:10:48 <ehird> Did you see that use.perl.org blog thing where a Perlist was confused why anyone would choose GitHub over Sourceforge, pointing out that Sourceforge did all the same things?
11:10:53 <AnMaster> grr, it seems that the lp branch was still set as mirror of rage, thus being broken now
11:11:00 <ehird> I'm convinced some people actually can't see UIs
11:11:07 <ehird> Like, physically can't take note of them
11:11:15 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me when you branched so I can convert it to hosted branch without breaking your branching of it
11:11:20 <ehird> I branched it, yes.
11:11:33 <ehird> Should I just rebranch? It only took a second or two.
11:12:20 * ehird grabs notepad++. It'll do for now patching up cfunge.
11:12:34 <ehird> Calibri's italic is very nice. I say this because /mes are displaying in it.
11:12:45 <ehird> It has the properly cursive f and everything.
11:14:35 <ehird> 11:11<ehird>Should I just rebranch? It only took a second or two.
11:14:37 <ehird> 11:11<ehird>Well. 15-30.
11:14:39 <ehird> 11:11<ehird>Still.
11:15:37 * AnMaster messes around with lp to change it to hosted branch
11:15:51 <AnMaster> so atm I would recommend against it, since I'm navigating the UI maze
11:16:49 * ehird obliterates notepad++ for sucking
11:17:18 <AnMaster> ehird, what about using emacs in cygwin?
11:17:54 <ehird> I kinda want something I can use right away, and emacs' superbar plays hell with window managers IME
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11:18:19 <AnMaster> Is this the mode line you are referring to?
11:18:29 <ehird> Emacs' docked-to-the-left-or-wherever file tree thing.
11:18:35 <ehird> For opening other files in whatever you're working on.
11:19:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not available here it seems
11:19:29 <ehird> http://www.pnotepad.org/ ;; Oh, this looks acceptable
11:19:37 <ehird> it has syntax highlighting, a file tree and presumably auto indentation
11:19:40 <ehird> It will do for now
11:20:27 <AnMaster> ehird, indention in cfunge is one tab per level, and space to adjust (that is, like when you line up with parenthesis above when you break a long line)
11:20:49 <ehird> I'll follow whatever awful bloated coding style you use. :)
11:20:52 <AnMaster> astyle --indent-preprocessor --indent-namespaces --indent-labels --one-line=keep-statements --indent=tab=4 --max-instatement-indent=40 --brackets=linux --min-conditional-indent=1 --unpad=paren --indent-switches --pad=oper "$@"
11:21:08 <ehird> Yeah, I'm not about to program myself with an astyle command line...
11:21:12 <AnMaster> that messes up a few times, so there are some corrections
11:21:29 <AnMaster> like it seems to dislike C99 structs with .foo in them
11:23:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well there seems to be an issue, I'm going to ask in #launchpad, but since you already branched I thought?
11:23:57 <ehird> Will it work if I use that thing?
11:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well think so, oh it is just update delay
11:24:43 <AnMaster> as in, launchpad may take a few minutes to reflect new revisions being pushed
11:24:45 <ehird> Files won't be added if I don't explicitly add them, right?
11:24:58 <ehird> Just I made a cfunge.pnproj file to view the file tree.
11:24:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, depends on what you mean with "add"
11:25:05 <AnMaster> add in the git sense or add in the normal sense
11:25:13 <AnMaster> where normal is svn, hg and so on
11:25:35 <AnMaster> ehird, unversioned files won't be auto-added
11:25:57 <ehird> OK then, attempt one: build it straight
11:26:06 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of crappy VCS would auto-add unversioned files?
11:26:06 <ehird> Oops, forgot to install make
11:26:14 <ehird> A crappy one like bzr? :P
11:26:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well, that was just disproved. :P
11:26:54 <ehird> wtf, cygwin or something has set my mosue pointer to the ugly, unsmoothed windows xp style one
11:27:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it persisted after cygwin closed?
11:27:47 <ehird> no idea what did it, really
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11:30:23 <ehird> AnMaster: well, ccmake starts! :-P
11:30:35 <AnMaster> ehird, you could use just cmake you know.
11:30:38 <ehird> ais523: context: I'm trying to compile cfunge with Cygwin with patches, ingenuity, evil
11:30:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no clue why ehird is doing this
11:30:53 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but I want to see the variables in case I need to change them
11:31:09 <ehird> AnMaster: that's a pretty good followup to my line
11:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, right, a bit harder to remember what ones to change otherwise
11:31:14 <ehird> 11:30[INFO]1 matches for “an”: [AnMaster: ]
11:31:23 <ais523> ehird: reminds me of when I tried to run CLC-INTERCAL under DJGPP
11:31:29 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> 11:30 [INFO] 1 matches for “an”: [AnMaster: ]" <-- ?
11:31:39 <ais523> in the end I gave up, it was too hard to figure out where to change line endings
11:31:39 <ehird> (those were in realtime)
11:31:43 <ehird> (that's how slow it is)
11:32:06 <ehird> CMake Error at cmake/modules/CfungeRequireFunction.cmake:35 (message):
11:32:08 <ehird> Your system seems to be missing the function "getaddrinfo" which is
11:32:10 <ehird> required by cfunge.
11:32:22 <ehird> so, time to do my first patching
11:32:27 <ehird> first thing, get the getaddrinfo lib in place
11:32:29 <AnMaster> ehird, will need to be changed to check for it conditionally and use the alternative one otherwise
11:32:33 <ehird> second thing, kill myself before learning how to make a cmake file
11:32:54 <ehird> http://www.sra.co.jp/people/m-kasahr/getaddrinfo/
11:32:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I used gnulib code before btw
11:33:11 <ehird> AnMaster: but this thing is portable, which is good
11:33:15 <ehird> I don't have to check for cygwin here
11:33:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what about http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=gnulib.git;a=blob_plain;f=modules/getaddrinfo
11:33:20 <ehird> just not having getaddrinfo
11:33:33 <ehird> AnMaster: because that one's probably gnucrap and I doubt it works on Windows :-P
11:34:07 <ehird> so, this should go in lib/getaddrinfo if I know the structure right?
11:34:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it contains #ifdef _WIN32 though
11:34:49 <AnMaster> http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=gnulib.git;a=blob_plain;f=lib/getaddrinfo.c
11:34:52 <AnMaster> http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=gnulib.git;a=blob_plain;f=lib/gai_strerror.c
11:35:05 <AnMaster> ehird, but it is quite tied into automess
11:35:14 <AnMaster> ooh some BeOS stuff in there too
11:35:21 <ehird> They look pretty much the same, except one of them is unreadable because it uses the gnu coding standard
11:35:33 <ehird> Also, I don't think the .jp getaddrinfo has any platform checks
11:35:55 <ehird> AnMaster: should I keep getaddrinfo's ./configure and stuff in there even though it's not used?
11:36:16 <ehird> (You can just -DUSE_PTHREAD when compiling it to an .o then link that in, so there's not much need for anything.)
11:36:21 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, but license should be placed somewhere or such
11:36:31 <AnMaster> http://www.sra.co.jp/people/m-kasahr/getaddrinfo/
11:36:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll keep it so it's a pristine package; probably better for the license
11:36:45 <ehird> http://www.sra.co.jp/people/m-kasahr/getaddrinfo/index.css
11:36:48 <ehird> Blame your browser
11:37:04 <ehird> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-2022-jp">
11:37:07 <ehird> That makes sense then
11:37:59 <AnMaster> ehird, the gnu one does look simpler to me
11:38:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't suppose CFUNGE_REQUIRE_FUNCTION has any sort of else clause?
11:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, there is another macro for when it optional. let me check the name
11:38:55 <ehird> also, the only files needed in the non-gnu version is getaddrinfo.{c,h}
11:38:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
11:38:58 <AnMaster> CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(clock_gettime)
11:38:58 <AnMaster> if (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_clock_gettime)
11:39:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you will need to do some conditional adding on "add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES})" to include those extra files optionally
11:39:49 <ehird> AnMaster: is there a way to say "if we don't have any of these" other than a bunch of checks then NOT foo OR NOT bar?
11:40:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: is there a way to say "if we don't have any of these" other than a bunch of checks then NOT foo OR NOT bar? <-- clarify?
11:40:23 <AnMaster> CFUNGE_REQUIRE_MULTIPLE_INCLUDES("sys/types.h;netinet/tcp.h" "netinet/tcp.h")
11:40:44 <ehird> Where should I put the
11:40:46 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(getaddrinfo)
11:40:47 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(freeaddrinfo)
11:40:49 <ehird> and then adding logic stuff?
11:40:51 <ehird> After the "Optional" section?
11:41:05 <ehird> i.e., after the Existance of various functions section
11:41:09 <ehird> Also, it's Existence
11:43:13 <ehird> Do I have to give the whole clause in the endif part?
11:43:15 <ehird> It's so verbose and stuff.
11:43:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yep. cmake isn't perfect either
11:43:36 <AnMaster> at least, much better than autoconf
11:43:54 <ehird> You know, this thing is basically a shell script with worse syntax.
11:44:01 <ehird> Generating a config.mk
11:44:17 <ehird> 11:39<AnMaster>ehird, you will need to do some conditional adding on "add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES})" to include those extra files optionally
11:44:20 <AnMaster> ehird, well, better syntax than autoconf thoughg
11:44:24 <ehird> guess I need to find out how to append to variables, huh
11:44:42 <AnMaster> ehird, or set the variable to empty if the extra sources aren't needed
11:44:59 <AnMaster> add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_OPTIONAL_SOURCES}) should work I think
11:45:07 <AnMaster> where the optional ones could vary
11:45:18 <ehird> I don't even know how to set variablse :-P
11:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, look at the definitions of the macros
11:46:07 <AnMaster> set(CFUNGE_HAVE_${_name} true PARENT_SCOPE)
11:46:17 <AnMaster> of course this is special in a macro
11:46:23 <AnMaster> you won't need the parent scope stuff
11:46:33 <AnMaster> nor building the variable name dynamically
11:47:17 <ehird> What about to define a cpp thing for the program?
11:47:24 <ehird> Since we need to include getaddrinfo.h
11:47:32 <ehird> Hmm, also add -Ilib/getaddrinfo
11:47:35 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean, define a -Dfoo kind of thing?
11:47:37 <ehird> Such complicated things :-P
11:48:20 <AnMaster> ehird, as for the -I stuff: no, use ../../ or such rather
11:48:30 <AnMaster> it is less likely to break stuff with system headers
11:48:44 <AnMaster> ehird, because I remember that last time I tried on windows I had a header name collision
11:48:46 <ehird> Hmm, do I have to do ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/../lib/getaddrinfo in the CMakeLists.txt?
11:48:51 <ehird> Or will lib/getaddrinfo work
11:48:55 <ehird> For adding a source file
11:49:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use a FILE like I do for the other ones
11:49:33 <AnMaster> FILE(GLOB CFUNGE__OPTIONAL_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} lib/getaddrinfo/*)
11:49:38 <AnMaster> that handles the paths correctly
11:49:42 <ehird> Uh, it's only one .c.
11:49:44 <AnMaster> FILE(GLOB CFUNGE__OPTIONAL_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} lib/getaddrinfo/*.)
11:49:46 <AnMaster> FILE(GLOB CFUNGE__OPTIONAL_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} lib/getaddrinfo/*.c)
11:49:51 <ehird> It's only one file
11:49:54 <ehird> The rest are tests and stuff
11:50:00 <AnMaster> well it would need to be relative the source dir
11:50:05 <ehird> Well, and an implementation of memset for no adequately explained reason
11:50:26 <AnMaster> ehird, memset implementation? heh
11:50:37 <AnMaster> I would prefer using system defined memset in general
11:50:43 <ehird> It doesn't use it or anything
11:51:06 <ehird> You know, in case you wanted one
11:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I would definitely strip down the un-needed files, and provide a README in there pointing to the source and describing the changes
11:51:25 <ehird> But then it's not really a lib, is it?
11:51:26 <AnMaster> that is include the .c/.h and LICENSE
11:51:30 <ehird> Anyway, there's a NEWS file and stuff.
11:51:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well, the other libs are stripped down too
11:51:44 <ehird> The license is in the README
11:51:57 <AnMaster> hm ok. Try to apply some common sense?
11:52:08 <ehird> Meh, fine, I'll strip it down
11:52:19 <ehird> It just feels disrespectful to lob off their documentation
11:52:44 <AnMaster> ehird, this is BSD 2 clause or?
11:53:06 <ehird> So we can't say "cfunge! Now with added getaddrinfo for retarded operating systems!"
11:53:42 <ais523> ehird: presumably, if you're messing with getaddrinfo it means that the core works but some of the fingerprints don't?
11:53:57 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, see the top COPYING file? I think it should possibly be appended in there like is done for libghthash and genx
11:53:58 <ehird> It refuses to even configure without getaddrinfo.
11:54:14 <ehird> libghthash has a COPYING.
11:54:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yep as well, just noticed the duplication
11:54:31 <ais523> ehird: why not just roll your own build system?
11:54:43 <ehird> ais523: because my patches wouldn't be accepted.
11:54:46 <AnMaster> ais523, because he want to send the patches upstream I think
11:54:57 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, what on earth made you do this?
11:55:03 <ehird> I'd love to just replace the whole thing with a shell script that outputs a config.mk which is included by a simple Makefile, but I doubt that'd be accepted
11:55:29 <ehird> AnMaster: A stubborn refusal to accept the status quo opinion that you can write a program so POSIX, the laws of physics dictate that Windows can't run it
11:56:02 <ais523> ehird: I hate to bring up the "Windows is TC" argument, so I won't
11:56:06 <ais523> partly because I'm not sure if it works
11:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed that. I only said I'm not willing to invest time in getting it running on windows
11:56:20 <AnMaster> and don't want to mess up with too much #ifdef
11:56:23 <ehird> ais523: What I said is known as a ``joke''.
11:56:30 <AnMaster> I have seen such ifdef rich portable code
11:56:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Shush you :P
11:56:34 <ais523> ehird: you fail at smartquotes
11:56:44 <ais523> AnMaster: thinking of NetHack?
11:56:45 <ehird> ais523: *faggot quotes (Don't hate me. This is their actual name.)
11:56:53 <ehird> (At least, as far as a large variety of people are concerned.)
11:56:59 <ehird> They are a form of ``emphasis''.
11:57:07 <AnMaster> ais523, it was filled with VAX specific ifdefs
11:57:08 <ehird> The ``GNU Project'' likes them.
11:57:18 <ais523> oh, and they're used by default by `m4'
11:57:21 <ais523> although not for emphasis
11:57:35 * ehird holds off on minimalising the getaddrinfo library for later
11:57:37 <ais523> also, IIRC WinHlp32 used them too for its internal programming language
11:57:40 <AnMaster> ais523, then what about the [] stuff that automess likes?
11:57:47 <ais523> which I think was non-TC due to lack of infinite memory, but would otherwise have been TC
11:57:51 <ais523> AnMaster: they're configurable
11:58:01 <ais523> somewhere near the start would be changequote(`[',`]')
11:58:08 <ehird> add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES})
11:58:10 <ehird> AnMaster: a sane way of doing it?
11:58:26 <AnMaster> ehird, well if you set CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES to empty in case those aren't used
11:58:39 <ais523> and the reason that autotools changes the quotes is that both ` and ' are rather common in shell-script, and they don't even balance each other!
11:58:42 <ehird> I do set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES) before checking, yes.
11:59:14 <ehird> I also -DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY; do you want me to add a namespace or ten to that?
11:59:18 <AnMaster> ehird, adding the _Exit() vs. _exit() would be trivial, could do that here myself
11:59:30 <ehird> All of this is trivial
11:59:46 <AnMaster> ehird, except the SOCK/SCKE bit
12:00:04 <ehird> I didn't get a warning about static with gcc 3 and a test file.
12:00:14 <ehird> So I guess it's a problem with the gcc 4 packages or smething.
12:00:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and does cygwin define __WIN32__?
12:00:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know.
12:00:22 <AnMaster> if so, src/instructions/sysinfo.c needs changing
12:00:34 <ehird> 11:59<ehird>I also -DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY; do you want me to add a namespace or ten to that?
12:00:35 <AnMaster> because it define a dummy environ in that case.
12:00:41 <ehird> #define USE_PTHREADS
12:00:45 <ehird> #include .../.../.sdf.sdfsdfskf
12:00:47 <ehird> #undef USE_PTHREADS
12:00:52 <ehird> in both source files acceptable?
12:01:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> 11:59 <ehird> I also -DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY; do you want me to add a namespace or ten to that? <-- can't see how it would collide? and would be easy to change afterwards
12:01:52 <ehird> It isn't thread-safe unless you let it use pthreads.
12:01:56 <ehird> I assume cfunge is threaded somewhere.
12:02:22 <ais523> ehird: I don't think ATHR is implemented in cfunge
12:02:35 <ehird> #include "../../../lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.h"
12:02:38 <ehird> Seven billion ../s
12:03:15 <ehird> Alright, time for cmake round 2: Electric Boogaloo, or, see how much I broke things.
12:03:42 <ehird> Call me back in an hour when it's finished the first configuration step :P
12:03:48 <ehird> But it's going, so I guess I didn't break it too horribly.
12:03:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not sure that even if you get it to link, that it will actually run
12:04:16 <ehird> cfunge can run emacs and stuff
12:04:21 <ehird> Even on a ported X11
12:04:35 <ehird> I don't see why it shouldn't be able to handle a puny befunge interpreter.
12:04:37 <ehird> Although... slowly...
12:04:46 <ehird> I wonder if the inline asm will work.
12:05:10 <AnMaster> ehird, the inline asm is used for x86_64, I only wrote intrinsics using code for 32-bit x86
12:05:32 <ehird> As far as we know no one is working on a native 64 bit version of Cygwin.
12:05:53 <ehird> Woot, first cmake stage finished
12:05:53 <ais523> can you put 64-bit asm in an otherwise 32-bit program?
12:06:02 <ais523> I'm relatively sure you could do that with 32 and 16
12:06:03 <ehird> you have to switch into long mode
12:06:10 <ehird> which completely changes everything
12:06:12 <AnMaster> ehird, but at some point I might add 32-bit asm too. Or not.
12:06:16 <ais523> if running in protected mode, at least
12:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe you should be the cygwin maintainer of cfunge in the future! :D
12:06:33 <ehird> amd64 was an excuse to make x86 slightly less crufty :P
12:06:41 <ehird> bait 'n switch to no-legacy land
12:06:52 <ehird> AnMaster: sure. can't be too hard
12:07:02 <ehird> as I'm quite liking windows 7 I should be up for it
12:07:03 <AnMaster> ehird, it was supposed to be a joke
12:07:17 <AnMaster> that you was supposed to go "gaah" at or so
12:07:18 <ehird> And what's #esoteric's motto, ais523?
12:07:24 <ehird> Never let a joke get in the way of a bad idea.
12:07:33 <ais523> I'm pretty sure it isn't that
12:07:40 <ehird> (Okay, I made that more snappy from what you originally said, but.)
12:07:44 <ais523> maybe it's "WHO TOOK THE KONAMI CODE OUT OF THE TOPIC?"
12:07:47 <ehird> ais523: at one point I complained you and AnMaster were ruining a joke
12:07:53 <ehird> while trying to figure out how it'd work in practice
12:07:56 <ehird> and you said something along the lines
12:07:59 <ais523> that seems more like #esoteric
12:08:22 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not going to try installing this time, btw
12:08:25 <ehird> since I'd have to fix up the install path
12:08:31 <AnMaster> ehird, installing isn't something I do very often either
12:08:38 <ehird> Oh, it will do -O3, it seems
12:08:41 <AnMaster> but I test it before each release
12:08:44 <ehird> Since that's what release has
12:08:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well, those are only defaults
12:08:53 <ehird> It's so funny seeing paths like "/usr/bin/strip.exe"
12:09:04 <AnMaster> I tend to add -march=<whatever> to the release ones for example
12:09:10 <ehird> USE_64BIT is on; better turn that off.
12:09:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that just changes cell size
12:09:35 <AnMaster> but fine, for speed you definitely want 32-bit cells on 32-bit system
12:09:36 <ehird> Well, 32-bit will be faster with a 32-bit compile.
12:09:45 <AnMaster> ehird, it is faster even on x86_64
12:09:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Mine will totally be faster because Windows just puts shit in the kernel to improve speed.
12:09:59 <ehird> The GUI's in the kernel because of that reason. :P
12:10:10 <AnMaster> ehird, mycology will hit that fork() at least two times
12:10:17 <ehird> It should work fine.
12:10:34 -!- FireFly has joined.
12:10:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also I think some #defines in the code for y will need changing
12:10:38 <ehird> Alright, Makefile generated
12:10:50 <ehird> AnMaster: First objective is getting it to build
12:10:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, would you say the path separator should be \ or / under cygwin?
12:10:58 <ehird> It's /usr/bin and stuff
12:11:04 <ehird> c:\foo isn't, like, official
12:11:09 <ehird> You're meant to do /cygdrive/c/foo
12:11:27 <AnMaster> well, depending on what cygwin defines it might need some changing then
12:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, this again; cfunge balks because Cygwin doesn't claim that its mmap and regexp are meticulously POSIX-compliant
12:11:41 <AnMaster> # define PUSH_REQ_6(m_pushstack) \
12:11:41 <AnMaster> stack_push((m_pushstack), (funge_cell)'\\')
12:11:41 <AnMaster> # define PUSH_REQ_6(m_pushstack) \
12:11:42 <AnMaster> stack_push((m_pushstack), (funge_cell)'/')
12:11:47 <ehird> Which is a crime henious enough of an #error
12:11:52 <ehird> According to cfunge
12:12:01 <ehird> It seems like a very silly check to me
12:12:09 <AnMaster> ehird, well I have been considering a better way to check that
12:12:21 <AnMaster> since openbsd has problems in that area too
12:12:37 * ehird notes there are some implicit declaration warnings in genx, as well as cast-discarding-qualifier warnings
12:12:49 <ehird> in genx stringbuffer, implicit declarations and nested extern declarations
12:12:50 <AnMaster> ehird, so they will probably change in the soon future in any case
12:12:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> in genx stringbuffer, implicit declarations and nested extern declarations <-- wait?
12:12:58 <ehird> and some other misc stuff
12:13:16 <ehird> also some implicit decls in cfunge
12:13:28 <ehird> Anyway, what should I do
12:13:42 <ehird> For the posix checks
12:13:45 <AnMaster> ehird, because that just means... that it is called without showing up in header
12:13:51 <ehird> Along with /* FIXME: hack */
12:13:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but the linker didn't complain last time
12:13:59 <ehird> It'll just be in another header file
12:14:05 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, cygwin uses newlib
12:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, fine atm, because they are expected to go away soon
12:14:28 <AnMaster> ehird, issue is if that implicit decl turns out like: foo(int, char*) when it is really foo(long, char*)
12:14:37 <ehird> There aren't too many
12:14:52 <ehird> Do you have a rule about not going over 80cols?
12:15:05 <AnMaster> ehird, no hard rule, but I try to keep it not too wide
12:15:08 <ehird> fungespace_set(value, vector_create_ref(position->x + offset->x, position->y + offset->y));
12:15:17 <ehird> Well, assuming 4-space tabs, I guess
12:15:20 <ehird> which is what my editor's default is
12:15:42 <ehird> Before doing anything, I'll commit my getaddrinfo fix
12:15:49 <ehird> How do I tell bzr who I am? Simple command or?
12:15:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I try to break lines at 80 if it will not end up looking even worese
12:16:10 <AnMaster> but yeah, as long as I don't end up scrolling sideways in my own editor :P
12:16:11 <ehird> It's on an #if line directly after the hackish clause
12:16:18 <ehird> So, kinda hard to break up
12:16:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> How do I tell bzr who I am? Simple command or?
12:16:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you might want to nick the branch too
12:16:54 <AnMaster> to bzr nick cfunge-ehird or so
12:17:19 <AnMaster> by default it is same as directory name
12:17:21 <ehird> Grr, I wish the scrollbar worked in cmd.exe
12:17:32 <ehird> The scrollbar works fine if you drag it
12:17:41 <AnMaster> ehird, cygwin provides rxvt and such
12:17:55 <ehird> Yes, but that breaks on native windows programs and stuff, I think
12:18:01 <ehird> Anyway, cmd.exe is mostly fine
12:18:04 <ehird> I'm using bash in it of course
12:19:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway implict decls are kind of bad. Kind of bad as in "don't ever commit that". Maybe falling back on rand/srand or such could work
12:19:17 <ehird> I'll commit it because it's temporary work
12:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, bzr ci -m "log message goes here, or it opens a editor for you"
12:19:26 <ehird> Fine-grained commits are nice for, you know, reverting
12:20:20 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, there is bzr send, but I doubt you can get that working under windows
12:20:31 <ehird> This is cygwin remember
12:20:34 <ehird> It has sshd and all kinds of stuff
12:20:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you have a mail client and such set up?
12:20:57 <ehird> First commit, ba-za-za-done!
12:21:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Can't it use sendmail?
12:21:12 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure, I never tried it
12:21:45 <ehird> Deewiant's wrong; it doesn't define cygwin
12:22:08 <ais523> ehird: /nobody/ can use sendmail
12:22:10 <AnMaster> ehird, err __CYWIN__ with two _?
12:22:23 <ehird> ais523: sendmail(1) is trivial
12:22:27 <AnMaster> ais523, well I could, but I prefer qmail
12:22:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Isn't that what it is?
12:22:37 <ehird> It fails with one _ too, anyway
12:22:49 <AnMaster> ehird, sec for a gcc command to list all predefined defines
12:23:05 -!- Pthing has joined.
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12:23:31 <AnMaster> ehird, will list all predefined ones on stdout
12:23:36 <ehird> Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build
12:23:38 <ehird> $ echo | gcc -DM -E -
12:23:43 <ehird> # 1 "<command line>"
12:23:46 <ehird> Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build
12:24:07 <ehird> "Hey, at least it doesn't complain about static" Edition
12:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird, works on 3.4.6 here, don't have any older
12:24:30 <ehird> Hah, it has gdc, apparently
12:24:56 <AnMaster> gcc-3.4.6 gcc-4.1.2 gcc-4.3.2 are the ones I have according to tab completion
12:25:16 <ehird> __CYGWIN__ expands to 1
12:25:19 <ehird> when I do cpp /dev/stdin
12:25:30 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok, then it should be defined
12:25:33 <ehird> #if !defined(_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES) || (_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES < 1) || __CYGWIN__ /* hack */
12:25:35 <ehird> # error "cfunge needs a working mmap(), which this system claims it lacks."
12:26:02 <ehird> (Also, of course it will; __CYGWIN__ expands to 1)
12:26:17 <ehird> Should I use defined() instead?
12:26:49 <AnMaster> #if (!defined(_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES) || (_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES < 1)) && !defined(__CYGWIN__)
12:26:54 <AnMaster> otherwise it will break everywhere else
12:26:55 <ehird> moar implicit decl + nested decl
12:27:13 <ehird> Now to do the same to REXP.c
12:27:25 <ehird> # error "cfunge needs POSIX regular expressions, which this system claims it doesn't have."
12:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't check that in cmakelists I think hm
12:27:59 <AnMaster> CFUNGE_REQUIRE_FUNCTION(regcomp)
12:28:03 <ehird> [ 1%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/REXP/REXP.c.o
12:28:05 <ehird> [ 3%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/ROMA/ROMA.c.o
12:28:07 <ehird> [ 5%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o
12:28:08 <ehird> [ 7%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c.o
12:28:10 <ehird> [ 9%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c.o
12:28:11 <ehird> [ 11%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SUBR/SUBR.c.o
12:28:13 <ehird> [ 13%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/TERM/TERM.c.o
12:28:14 <ehird> [ 15%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/TIME/TIME.c.o
12:28:16 <ehird> [ 17%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/TOYS/TOYS.c.o
12:28:17 <ehird> Multiple files with no warnings
12:28:19 <ehird> That's a true beauty
12:28:21 <ehird> AnMaster: It's something I have not yet seen in this compile :P
12:28:33 <ehird> Ah, the good ol' M_PI undeclared
12:28:37 <ehird> AnMaster: tell me what your M_PI is?
12:28:45 <AnMaster> ehird, well POSIX declares it as XSI.
12:28:46 <ais523> ehird: M_PI isn't standard AFAIK
12:28:56 <AnMaster> ais523, POSIX 2008 mentions it here
12:29:02 <ais523> it used to be on the header files back on DOS, though
12:29:12 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes it should be in math.h
12:29:12 <ais523> which is probably not a header file you can legally put it in
12:29:21 <ais523> without a feature test macro, or something similar
12:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Yo, pi plz
12:29:54 <AnMaster> # define M_PI 3.14159265358979323846 /* pi */
12:30:18 <ehird> I like the comment there
12:30:19 <AnMaster> so that is whatever license glibc uses
12:30:27 <AnMaster> # define M_PI 3.14159265358979323846 /* pi */
12:30:27 <AnMaster> # define M_PI_2 1.57079632679489661923 /* pi/2 */
12:30:27 <AnMaster> # define M_PI_4 0.78539816339744830962 /* pi/4 */
12:30:29 <ehird> I'm going to be a horrible pirate
12:30:36 <ehird> And COMPLETELY IGNORE their copyright on pi!
12:30:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well I think the copyright is the formatting here :P
12:30:48 <ais523> ehird: take the value, and write the rest of the line from scratch
12:31:06 <ehird> But I refuse to add the explanatory /* pi */ comment!
12:31:19 <ehird> Hey, we're on to linking
12:31:34 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/PERL/PERL.c.o:PERL.c:(.text+0x1b9): undef
12:31:36 <ehird> ined reference to `__Exit'
12:31:38 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x65): undefi
12:31:39 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway POSIX.1-2008 declares M_PI on page 286
12:31:39 <ehird> ned reference to `_getaddrinfo'
12:31:41 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0xa4): undefi
12:31:42 <ehird> ned reference to `_freeaddrinfo'
12:31:46 <ehird> I guess including it in sources doesn't link its object?
12:32:10 <ehird> I didn't define a FILE
12:32:16 <ais523> ehird: yep, generally speaking, unless they're in one of the standard libraries
12:32:27 <ehird> ais523: I'm talking about cmake
12:32:44 <AnMaster> ais523, so yes M_PI *is* standard
12:32:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Is there a FILE(NOGLOBBINGORANYTHING or whatever?
12:33:13 <ehird> man works. That's a nice surprise.
12:33:25 <ehird> Longest manual EVAR
12:33:28 <AnMaster> ehird, or rather, you don't need FILE if it is one file, just remember it must be relative
12:33:34 <AnMaster> ehird, nop, bash one is longer iirc
12:33:42 <AnMaster> and so is the non-split zsh one
12:33:45 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
12:33:53 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/../lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
12:34:05 <AnMaster> the ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} is the top one
12:34:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:35:15 <ehird> I wonder if I make an installer for this I could get you to do the unthinkable embarrassment and put a windows binary up for download :-P
12:35:35 <ehird> Interesting work ethic here, where my half-hearted desire to see you squirm is making me improve your software
12:35:50 <ehird> "ARE YOU ASSOCIATING WITH CYGWIN SCOUNDRELS?"
12:35:58 <ehird> "THEY'RE NOT PURE BLOODED, AN!"
12:36:07 <ehird> (AnMaster's name: totally An Master.)
12:37:55 <ehird> Oh, it's just in SCKE, not SOCK
12:37:58 <ehird> I'll fix the _Exit thing first
12:38:55 <ehird> OK, don to two errors.
12:39:05 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x65): undefi
12:39:07 <AnMaster> ehird, remembers small commits
12:39:07 <ehird> ned reference to `_getaddrinfo'
12:39:09 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0xa4): undefi
12:39:10 <ehird> ned reference to `_freeaddrinfo'
12:39:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh, right; I'll revert one change
12:39:22 <AnMaster> ehird, conditional include header there too I guess
12:39:23 <ehird> Does SOCK use getaddrinfo?
12:39:43 <AnMaster> ehird, grep? It would take you equal time to me to find out
12:40:06 <ehird> How do I commit only some files?
12:40:18 <AnMaster> ehird, bzr ci foo.c bar.c -m "message here"
12:41:35 <AnMaster> ehird, note that cd foo/; bzr ci, will commit stuff in bar/ too by default, ci/diff/log and so on tend to be centered on tree root by default, unless you do something like bzr diff .
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12:42:40 <AnMaster> ehird, anything else? oh btw for _Exit vs. _exit
12:42:48 <AnMaster> you don't need to add any define in cmake
12:42:59 <ehird> +# define _Exit _exit /* This probably works */
12:42:59 <AnMaster> since the check macro adds defines by default
12:43:02 <ehird> I'm pretty sure everything has _exit
12:43:13 <ehird> I mean, even Windows.
12:45:16 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, when it comes to warnings, the implicit ones needs to be fixed at least
12:45:19 <ehird> OK, only one thing to go: fix the seeming unlinkingness of getaddrinfo/freeaddrinfo.
12:45:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure, but it'll still work.
12:45:47 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it might by pure chance, see what I said about prototypes first time you mentioned this
12:45:52 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x65): undefi
12:45:54 <ehird> ned reference to `_getaddrinfo'
12:45:56 <ehird> CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0xa4): undefi
12:45:58 <ehird> ned reference to `_freeaddrinfo'
12:46:01 <ehird> Yet the relevant file is in the executable thingy.
12:46:13 <AnMaster> ehird, wait, what is the _ doing there?
12:46:23 <ehird> Everything gets prefixed by a _.
12:47:30 <AnMaster> ehird, sure those are included? try in ccmake to turn on CMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE
12:47:41 <AnMaster> that will make the commands be printed
12:47:50 <AnMaster> so you can see if the link command looks sane
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12:50:20 * ehird ponders asking the Windows developer on IAmA about the most efficient way to implement fork() :-P
12:50:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
12:50:51 <ehird> Okay, verbose making go.
12:50:56 <ehird> Holy fuck you have a lot of -W options.
12:51:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
12:52:30 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/614537.txt?key=zovi8xmxwmc4mlpaow have fun with the wall of text :P
12:53:46 <ehird> ("libcfunge.dll.a")
12:54:35 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the file that handled getaddrinfo again?
12:54:45 <ehird> lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c
12:54:46 <AnMaster> there is no getaddrinfo mentioned in there
12:54:52 <AnMaster> so it seems something went wrong
12:55:00 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES)
12:55:02 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(getaddrinfo)
12:55:04 <ehird> CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(freeaddrinfo)
12:55:05 <ehird> if (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo OR NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)
12:55:07 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
12:55:08 <ehird> add_definitions(-DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY)
12:55:10 <ehird> endif (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo OR NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)
12:55:14 <ehird> add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES})
12:55:22 <AnMaster> ehird, "(NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo OR NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)" < try only the first part
12:55:30 <ehird> What if the system only has one?
12:55:39 <AnMaster> ehird, well just try it atm to see if that was the issue
12:55:42 <ehird> I'll parenthesize it
12:55:47 <ehird> I bet the NOT is getting the rest of it
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12:58:32 <ehird> Yay, it configurd.
12:58:42 <ehird> It's like compiling KDE :P
12:59:50 <ehird> Same fuckin' error
13:00:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:00:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Should I just remove the if and do it unconditionally?
13:00:58 <ehird> levenshtein correction
13:01:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:01:03 <ehird> only one distance at a time
13:02:23 <ehird> So I needed an oe from somewhere
13:03:44 <ehird> (I started when I said "levenshtien correction".)
13:03:51 <ehird> That's right, 3 minutes to get from 0% to 100%.
13:04:26 <ehird> I should download one of those Expose-for-Windows things; Windows-Tab is useless.
13:05:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Guess whether the error differs or not
13:05:32 <ehird> is FILE(GLOB FOO RELATIVE BAR BAZ*QUUX)
13:05:49 <ehird> foo = glob(bar/baz*quux)
13:09:02 <ehird> Oh, I think I know!
13:09:04 <ehird> add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES})
13:09:08 <ehird> That third argument isn't more sources
13:09:10 <ehird> It's something else, I bet
13:09:17 <ehird> How do I concatenate the two, then? Or is it not that?
13:09:23 <ehird> Bah. It's impossible to search
13:09:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't know how to search cmake?
13:09:50 <AnMaster> add_executable(<name> [WIN32] [MACOSX_BUNDLE] [EXCLUDE_FROM_ALL]
13:10:18 <fizzie> I was under the impression that win7 had something Expose-like called "Aero Peek", but apparently that's some other thing entirely.
13:10:21 <ehird> Is there a halt_and_prompt_the_user_for_confirmation_after_printing?
13:10:33 <ehird> fizzie: Windows-Tab gives each window in front of each other, 3D-style.
13:10:48 <ehird> It's just different enough from Expose to be not a ripoff and useless.
13:10:49 <ais523> they stole that from Compiz
13:10:57 <ais523> it's exactly the same effect, and the same key combo too
13:10:58 <ehird> ais523: I very much doubt that's the case
13:11:03 <ehird> ais523: It was in Vista
13:11:04 <ais523> well, super-tab is scrolly
13:11:16 <ehird> ais523: Compiz stole almost all of its effects from OS X and Vista
13:11:17 <ais523> whereas I think the windows version puts everything side-on so you can't see it
13:11:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you could make it an error message containing the thing, or use cmake instead of ccmake
13:11:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah, how do you error?
13:11:35 <AnMaster> "Your system seems to be missing the header \"${_name}\" which is required by cfunge.")
13:11:46 <ais523> ehird: I'm aware that it's blatantly stealing from OSX; I'm not sure about which way round it is compared to the Vista effects
13:12:08 <fizzie> Yes, I remember the 3d-window-stackery from Vista;re. but that "Aero Peek" is some sort of taskbar-preview-related featu
13:12:08 <ehird> ais523: The minimize, restore effects are identical
13:12:15 <ehird> Also the open window, close window ones
13:12:24 <ehird> Either Compiz stole them, or Microsoft enjoy legal deep shit
13:12:39 <ais523> the minimize-restore effects are obvious
13:12:49 <ehird> Doesn't matter; those 4 being identical is telling
13:12:54 <ais523> I'm willing to believe that those ones could have been invented independently
13:13:02 <ehird> Yes, but when paired with the other two...
13:13:07 <ehird> which are totally nonobvious
13:13:19 <ais523> what does OSX do for those, by the way?
13:13:27 <ehird> For opening and closing windows?
13:13:38 <ehird> Such animations are useless eyecandy.
13:13:57 <AnMaster> ehird, for minimize and restore it has useless eye candy too
13:13:58 <ais523> on an unresponsive system, it's useful to have an obvious way to notice when a window's opened
13:14:04 <ais523> I'm not sure that method is the correct one, though
13:14:14 <AnMaster> ais523, the fact that a new window shows up?
13:14:29 <ais523> AnMaster: not always, especially if you're staring at something else at the time
13:14:47 <AnMaster> ais523, if you are looking at something else, you wouldn't see animation either?
13:14:50 <ehird> The window shadow should do that.
13:14:52 <ais523> hmm... does anyone else find typical Windows machines impossibly slow to use just after they've booted
13:14:55 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not how the human eye works
13:14:57 <ais523> as in, you have to get up and do something else
13:14:59 <ehird> ais523: Not Windows 7
13:15:04 <ehird> Bogged down XP systems, yes
13:15:17 <ehird> This thing boots up fast once the BIOS hands control
13:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant something else = a book or so, so the monitor isn't in your view at all
13:15:21 <ais523> I'm thinking Vista running Norton antivirus
13:15:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Peripheral vision
13:15:31 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, any luck with cmake?
13:15:39 <ais523> the boot's fast; it's just unusable for about 10 minutes after it's booted
13:15:41 <AnMaster> ehird, that only goes to ~180 degrees iirc
13:15:48 <ehird> ais523: 7 is easier on the system than Vista, but what sort of specs has it got?
13:15:49 <ais523> as in, you do anything, and you can make a cup of coffee or whatever before it responds
13:15:53 <ehird> ais523: The culprit is almost certainly Norton, btw
13:15:57 <ais523> ehird: I don't know, but I doubt they're good
13:16:06 <ais523> and I mentioned Norton because I thought it was probably responsibel
13:16:17 <ehird> Windows doesn't gracefully degrade; above the minimum hardware it works fine, below that it just crawls
13:16:18 <AnMaster> ehird, plus it isn't xray vision. *imagines big news paper in front of monitor :P
13:16:21 <ehird> There's never middle ground with windows
13:16:27 <ais523> ehird: ah, that's interesting to know
13:16:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Still working on it, btw
13:16:34 <ehird> ais523: Well, it's just my experience
13:16:37 <ehird> Limited, admittedly
13:16:39 <ais523> it tallies with mine, too
13:16:54 <ehird> AnMaster: CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES is empty right after setting it unconditionally
13:17:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you have to do something special to reset something?
13:17:07 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES)
13:17:10 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
13:17:36 <ehird> ais523: Windows also decays a lot quicker than other OSs
13:17:45 <ehird> On the other hand, when it's not decayed, it's faster than other OSs
13:17:48 <ais523> I don't get OS decay-over-time at all
13:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I never tried setting it more than once, I would do an else there
13:17:55 <ais523> it seems to defy the typical rules of computer physics
13:18:01 <ehird> ais523: It's mainly Windows that does it
13:18:07 <ehird> Other systems do it, but are so slow you wouldn't notice it
13:18:18 <ais523> I haven't noticed any on this system, and it's never been reinstalled
13:18:20 <ehird> e.g., if you installed Debian 15 years ago, I doubt it'd still be working over all the upgrades
13:18:26 <ais523> it's been upgraded continuously from Feisty
13:18:29 <AnMaster> ehird, try removing the first set to see if anything changes
13:18:33 <ais523> OTOH, Windows seems to decay even if not upgraded, somehow
13:18:36 <ehird> Is it just "else"?
13:18:54 <AnMaster> ehird, else (whole whopping condition again)
13:19:09 <AnMaster> oh and I thought about trying scons for my next C project
13:19:25 <AnMaster> but on the other hand, from a user point of view, that is even more irritating
13:19:31 <ehird> scons is verbose and silly in my experience
13:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, and ignores cflags and such by default
13:19:50 <ehird> I strongly suggest you try writing a simple shell script that writes out a simple config.mk, which you include in a Makefile
13:19:52 <AnMaster> which is irritating when you need -m32 or such to compile something
13:19:55 <ehird> I bet you'll be surprised how cleanly and easily it works out
13:19:57 <ehird> + no dependencise at all
13:20:07 <ehird> also, readable/editable Makefiles
13:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, then I will have to handle deps between headers and c files myself
13:20:18 <ehird> Scons doesn't handle that afaik
13:20:29 <AnMaster> well ok, that is a blocker to me
13:20:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I know about such tooks
13:20:40 <ehird> gcc has a facility to do what makedep does
13:20:50 <ehird> It's just a few lines in a Makefile to have it included and regenerated automatically
13:21:08 <ehird> Admittedly, such a shell + make solution won't win any awards for extreme elegance, but the code will be compact, it'll be fast, and it won't have any dependencies.
13:21:23 <AnMaster> ehird, shell scripts won't be fast under cygwin
13:21:31 <fizzie> Scons does header-dependencies completely automatically, I think.
13:21:33 <AnMaster> and it will be painful to use plain sh
13:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: So what? Everything uses ./configure
13:21:39 <ehird> Also, use bash then
13:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, but some systems might not
13:21:58 <ehird> Yah, nobody cares about those systems :P
13:22:30 <AnMaster> ehird, did it work with just setting that var once?
13:22:41 <ehird> if ((NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo) OR (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo))
13:22:43 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
13:22:45 <ehird> add_definitions(-DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY)
13:22:47 <ehird> else ((NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo) OR (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo))
13:22:48 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES)
13:22:50 <ehird> endif ((NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo) OR (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo))
13:22:51 <ehird> message(FATAL_ERROR "${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}")
13:22:53 <ehird> with no definition before
13:22:57 * ehird removes the conditional
13:23:17 <ehird> they're probably flying out of my nose
13:23:19 <ehird> washing the windows api
13:24:33 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
13:24:35 <ehird> add_definitions(-DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY)
13:24:39 <ehird> message(FATAL_ERROR "${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}")
13:24:57 <AnMaster> I can not possibly explain this...
13:25:29 <AnMaster> ehird, it is easy once you read it carefully
13:25:56 <ehird> See, this is the problem with we programmers.
13:26:02 <ehird> We instantly jump to mystics.
13:26:05 <ehird> Never considering the obvious.
13:26:18 <ehird> Let's try this again.
13:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, when I end up with something weird like that I tend to do copy and paste of variable names to see if there is a hidden typo I can't spot
13:28:12 <ehird> set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURcES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c)
13:28:15 <ehird> is cmake case insensitive?
13:28:27 <ehird> I'll just re-run it
13:28:55 <AnMaster> ehird, make sure you fix the typo in the if too if it was there
13:29:08 <AnMaster> ehird, and every place it may be used
13:29:14 <ehird> ...wait, what typo in the if?
13:29:22 <ehird> I fixed the one you s///d
13:29:29 <ehird> That's the line I pasted
13:29:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, I meant if you typoed the first set as well as the one inside?
13:30:06 <ehird> It's an else now, anyway
13:30:15 <AnMaster> well check that one inside the else
13:30:19 <ehird> (I started it on "I'll just re-run it")
13:30:27 <ehird> (Just making sure you realize how damn slow process spawning is on Windows)
13:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I can do nothing about cygwin being slow
13:30:49 <ehird> I'm surprised Chrome is so snappy, spawning a process on every tab and all.
13:30:55 <AnMaster> ehird, plus there is a way around it. A horrible way
13:31:01 <AnMaster> user space processes using threads
13:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think about that?
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13:33:11 <ehird_> Heh, and just at the crucial moment my internet blinks
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13:33:19 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
13:33:25 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:33:41 -!- ehird has joined.
13:33:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> I'm surprised Chrome is so snappy, spawning a process on every tab and all.
13:33:43 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, plus there is a way around it. A horrible way
13:33:43 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> user space processes using threads
13:33:43 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think about that?
13:33:51 <AnMaster> <ehird_> Heh, and just at the crucial moment my internet blinks
13:34:00 <ehird> I was considering that
13:34:02 <ehird> But it would lead to crappiness
13:34:08 <ehird> Anyway, AnMaster: Bad news.
13:34:12 <ehird> Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build
13:34:15 <ehird> FATAL: No file provided.
13:34:17 <ehird> we unleashed a horror upon the world.
13:34:25 <ehird> It is known as "cfunge.exe".
13:34:34 <ehird> cfunge -h runs without problems
13:34:37 <AnMaster> as for binaries, I don't do linux binaries either
13:34:52 <AnMaster> I used to provide binaries, but stopped
13:34:56 <ehird> Yah, but there's no single Linux binary format thingy
13:35:03 <ehird> And also this is a bitch to set up :P
13:35:09 <ehird> Shall I run an example?
13:35:41 <AnMaster> ehird, need to test mycology, check env variables and path separator especially
13:35:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Gasp; it takes around 0.1s total
13:35:49 <ehird> Because of the process overhead :P
13:36:15 <ehird> prime.bf works, time for wumpus
13:36:15 <AnMaster> nothing unexpected if one of them works
13:36:25 <ehird> The freakin' thing is running on Windows
13:36:28 <ehird> With only minimal patches
13:36:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but what I expect is that mycology system info will break
13:36:44 <ehird> You should bundle Mycology.
13:37:33 <AnMaster> ehird, you could pastebin the output, might be easiest, I'm used to looking at the output to see the expected or unexpected
13:38:15 <AnMaster> ehird, tests/perl.b98 might be good to try too. And tests/sysexec.b98
13:38:35 <ehird> Oh, you have a tests/
13:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well mostly stuff that mycology doesn't test. Sometimes output may be cryptic
13:39:02 <AnMaster> there are often comments in the files
13:39:06 <ehird> perl.b98 just sits there.
13:39:12 <ehird> Can't type anything on the keyboard.
13:39:20 <ehird> Now that I check, no.
13:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, hm still shouldn't hang as such
13:39:45 <ehird> Maybe it's _exit failing or something.
13:40:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I have no idea, I'll have to test under linux without perl in path
13:40:45 <AnMaster> ehird, ah wait, it is the test program that is broken without perl
13:41:08 <ehird> Thought it'd be something like that. ^C worked.
13:41:40 <ehird> AnMaster: perl.b98 works
13:42:25 <ehird> I have no testncrsterm.
13:42:32 <AnMaster> ehird, err wait, that was half written
13:42:44 <ehird> sigfpe outputs "Finished"
13:43:14 <AnMaster> ehird, the ncrs term one is http://pastebin.ca/1563092
13:43:51 <ehird> Uh oh: TERM failed to load.
13:43:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I will be interested in if it does one or more of 1) crashes 2) messes up your terminal 3) fails in some other way
13:44:03 <ehird> It's because I'm using cmd.exe, probably.
13:44:09 <ehird> Not a very standard terminal.
13:44:14 <ehird> I'll try the Windows port of rxvt that Cygwin has.
13:44:17 <AnMaster> ehird, or ncurses wasn't detected at compile time
13:44:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I doubt it; I have ncurses
13:44:47 <AnMaster> ehird, what does ./cfunge.exe -v
13:45:01 <ehird> cfunge.exe not found :P but build/cfunge.exe -v,
13:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird, ah well right, didn't know what directory you were in
13:45:34 <ais523> pdcurses is more common than ncurses for DOS/Windows, IIRC
13:45:44 <ehird> Yeah, no libncurses-devel.
13:45:48 <ais523> AnMaster: did you specify ncurses in particular? or just a curses-alike in general?
13:46:08 <ais523> ehird: yes, I noticed first time
13:46:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I use the macro provided with cmake to check for it
13:46:23 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, on my copy cygwin building works with no changes
13:46:25 <AnMaster> because I needed that for something
13:46:28 <ehird> you can ccmake like usual
13:46:30 <ehird> I disable 64-bit cells though
13:46:37 <ehird> but it means it's currently working very well
13:46:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I want to see mycology output though
13:47:01 <ehird> Yes, after I recompile
13:47:25 <ehird> Then I'll fix any y-like errors in Mycology, fix all the warnings and tada. Cygwin ready.
13:47:39 <ehird> The nice thing is that cfunge.exe will work as long as you put cygwin1.dll in the same directory.
13:47:51 <ehird> So it's as close to "native" as cfunge'll ever get.
13:48:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hm wait about perl, it seems E does indeed lock up. Which is not expected
13:48:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well there are some possible issues in mycology output, possibly some stuff in sysinfo.c needs to be changed
13:49:27 <ehird> That's what I mean.
13:51:22 <AnMaster> hm. check in ccmake for ncurses vars
13:51:44 <AnMaster> possibly the not found was cached
13:52:10 <ehird> I should charge for windows cfunge binaries
13:52:21 <ehird> it's a time consuming process!</xchat devs>
13:52:24 <ehird> ais523: stop interrupting my jokes
13:53:53 <AnMaster> what is the possible exit codes of perl itself?
13:54:33 <ehird> perl -e 'exit 34;'
13:54:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant for stuff like syntax error and so on
13:54:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, USE_NCURSES is on
13:54:58 <AnMaster> ehird, try in the advanced list. there should be some path to ncurses library and so on
13:55:09 <ehird> It knows where curses is, and ncurses
13:55:12 <AnMaster> CURSES_CURSES_LIBRARY /lib64/libcurses.so
13:55:12 <AnMaster> CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY-NOTFOUND
13:55:12 <AnMaster> CURSES_FORM_LIBRARY /usr/lib64/libform.so
13:55:12 <AnMaster> CURSES_HAVE_CURSES_H /usr/include/curses.h
13:55:13 <ehird> but not where CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY is
13:55:21 <ehird> got all that bling
13:55:36 <AnMaster> CURSES_INCLUDE_PATH /usr/include
13:55:36 <AnMaster> CURSES_LIBRARY /lib64/libcurses.so
13:55:36 <AnMaster> CURSES_NCURSES_LIBRARY /lib64/libncurses.so
13:55:53 <ehird> CURSES_CURSES_H_PATH */usr/include
13:55:55 <ehird> CURSES_CURSES_LIBRARY */lib/libcurses.dll.a
13:55:57 <ehird> CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY *CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY-NOTFOUND
13:55:58 <ehird> CURSES_FORM_LIBRARY */lib/libform.dll.a
13:56:00 <ehird> CURSES_HAVE_CURSES_H */usr/include/curses.h
13:56:01 <ehird> CURSES_INCLUDE_PATH */usr/include
13:56:03 <ehird> CURSES_LIBRARY */lib/libcurses.dll.a
13:56:04 <ehird> CURSES_NCURSES_LIBRARY */lib/libncurses.dll.a
13:56:16 <AnMaster> ehird, and then g to generate again
13:56:20 <ehird> That's what I did before :P
13:56:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well, try it once more just in case...
13:56:34 <ehird> Did switching to advanced mode detect them or something?
13:56:42 <AnMaster> ehird, that wouldn't make sense
13:57:10 <ehird> Well, it compiled TERM.c without warnings or errors
13:57:19 <ehird> But it's still -ncurses
13:57:34 <ehird> Doesn't "TERM failed to load." just mean, like, can't initialize ncurses?
13:57:59 <AnMaster> ehird, that or the fingerprint didn't exist
13:58:11 <AnMaster> as in, TERM.c contains a huge ifdef around everything in it
13:59:14 <AnMaster> ehird, then it isn't in the binary, thus ifdefed ouyt
13:59:24 <AnMaster> and I don't know why if ncurses was detected
13:59:53 <AnMaster> ehird, did you press c again after those * were there? or just g right away?
14:00:16 <AnMaster> I think some older versions of cmake had some issue with... hm...
14:00:34 <AnMaster> right, this shouldn't happen then
14:00:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:01:02 <AnMaster> CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H)
14:01:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I think part of the "not found" is still cached
14:01:39 <ehird> I reset everything
14:01:54 <AnMaster> ehird, removed CMakeCache.txt ?
14:02:08 <ehird> Everything in build
14:02:20 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, I can't make head or tail out of this
14:04:00 <ehird> It's claerly magi.
14:05:49 <AnMaster> well yes since it works here. Atm I'm fixing the inf loop in perl bug
14:05:49 <Deewiant> ehird: Still working on getting cfunge to work? :-P
14:06:09 <AnMaster> ehird, still you could already run it on the main mycology, just not mycoterm
14:06:51 <ehird> Deewiant: It works, just it isn't detecting ncurses.
14:07:55 <Deewiant> CMake fail or #ifdef fail or what?
14:08:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, unable to reproduce it here on linux.
14:08:54 <Deewiant> Yes, you tend to say that when people do stuff on Windows.
14:09:21 <AnMaster> some directory under /usr/include?
14:09:22 <ehird> I don't think it's anywhere.
14:09:30 <ehird> I don't know, though.
14:09:33 <AnMaster> ehird, then TERM won't work, term.h is here a part of ncurses
14:10:30 <AnMaster> because I only have term.h in /usr/inclyde
14:10:49 <ehird> Anyway, I'm installing vi now so I can tell you what's in there.
14:10:56 <AnMaster> oh and the wide char /usr/include/ncursesw/term.h
14:11:05 <ehird> No widechar on Cygwin.
14:11:12 <ehird> Hasn't been ported, etc.
14:11:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well did you say /usr/include/ncurses/term.h exists?
14:11:33 <ehird> ** term.h -- Definition of struct term
14:11:52 <AnMaster> issue is, where to check for it
14:11:57 <AnMaster> CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H)
14:11:59 <ehird> CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H)
14:12:04 <ehird> Can it have multiple entries?
14:12:08 <ehird> CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H)
14:12:11 <ehird> CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(ncurses/term.h HAVE_TERM_H)
14:12:21 <ehird> we need to know which one
14:12:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it will need adjustment in the C file too
14:13:42 <ehird> programmer's notepad has a neat feature where if you select something, it highlights all the occurrences in the file of that term
14:13:45 <ehird> not that I've used it, but
14:14:31 <ehird> AnMaster: -DCURSES_TERM_HEADER=foo or a -D for each one?
14:14:40 <ehird> i.e. #include CURSES_TERM_HEADER or an ifdef
14:14:45 <ehird> an ifdef is more conventional but more work
14:14:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm writing a check atm
14:16:03 <ehird> Is there an elseifdef?
14:16:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Patch done.
14:16:51 <ehird> #ifdef TERM_H_IN_NCURSES
14:16:53 <ehird> # include <ncurses/term.h>
14:16:57 <ehird> # include <term.h>
14:17:00 <ehird> Mine is better :-P
14:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, hey, how did you copy my name for that
14:17:18 <ehird> Pastebin the cmake code you did for it
14:17:21 <ehird> I bet it's identical
14:18:20 <ehird> Oh, yours is better. But I used HAVE_NCURSES_TERM_H as a name too.
14:18:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Push yours and tell me how to pull it?
14:18:34 <AnMaster> can't test it, since my system has it in term.h
14:19:00 <AnMaster> ehird, sec. but you will have to merge since you have locally commited stuff, and it won't let you merge if you have locally uncommited changes
14:19:10 <ehird> Can't it automatically merge?
14:19:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, that is what merge does. It just refuses to do a plain pull
14:19:45 <AnMaster> and you have to commit the merge. Hey, hg is even stranger
14:19:53 <ehird> No, that's regular
14:20:01 <ehird> Anyway, committed what I was sitting on
14:20:03 <Deewiant> Both hg and git can do a rebase
14:21:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think bzr can too nowdays, haven't tried it though
14:21:41 <ehird> I'm considering switching to darcs one of these days if it gets faster and starts handling stuff like chmod
14:21:48 <AnMaster> I think it will remember branch location
14:21:57 <AnMaster> bzr pull --remember lp:cfunge/trunk
14:21:59 <ehird> ~/cfunge$ bzr pull
14:22:01 <ehird> Using saved parent location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/main/
14:22:03 <ehird> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/main/".
14:22:09 <ehird> Doing what you said.
14:22:13 <ais523> that's the annoying thing about darcs; it isn't production-ready yet, and I fear it never will be
14:22:18 <ais523> but it is /almost/ good enough...
14:22:26 <AnMaster> because that is my fault when messing with the lp branch after you branched
14:22:37 <ehird> ais523: I've mainly come to appreciate its UI, and chunks are oh-so-good
14:22:38 <AnMaster> bzr pull --remember lp:cfunge/trunk
14:22:47 <ehird> ais523: Now if only it had the internal architecture of git
14:22:57 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what I did; merging now
14:23:25 <ehird> I'll test this now.
14:23:43 <AnMaster> well does ncurses work now? you may need to delete the results from cached checks
14:23:58 <ehird> I'm totally re-cmaking.
14:24:12 <AnMaster> oh and I expect you to sign your own commits with gpg right? ;P
14:24:58 <ehird> AnMaster: But how can you trust my key? Coming within any significant radius of me is dangerous!
14:26:41 <ehird> NCRS includes term.h
14:27:34 <ehird> /usr/include, and yet ncurses is in /lib.
14:27:39 <ehird> But then /usr/lib = /lib :-P
14:28:55 <ehird> no revisions to pull
14:29:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh sorry, I think launchpad has a cache delay
14:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, try again in a few minutes
14:30:54 <ehird> i mean, github doesn't have any caches or delays or anything, and I'm sure launchpad isn't much more popular
14:30:57 <ehird> maybe bzr just sucks a lot :P
14:31:08 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StorageTek_tape_formats
14:31:17 <ehird> A terabyte tape on one reel. Holy fuck!
14:31:47 <ehird> It costs $37,000 apparently.
14:32:09 <ehird> AnMaster: still not through
14:33:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> 62s load time :P <-- that is quite a bit. What about speed once it is loaded?
14:34:29 <ehird> AnMaster: are you sure you pushed it?
14:34:54 <AnMaster> ehird, yep. But indeed the delay is longer than usual
14:35:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and I just checked with the http url myself, I see the change there now, sure it isn't some isp cache?
14:36:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess isp cache, wait a few more minutes?
14:36:32 <ehird> my isp doesn't cache
14:39:06 <AnMaster> ehird, and then pastebin mycology output
14:39:24 <AnMaster> oh as well as testing if that ncrsterm test program works
14:39:55 <ehird> "The reason I ask is for readability reasons I'd prefer long names" // god, I hate this reasoning
14:40:29 <ehird> directories(), or dirs() if the surrounding code handles directories a lot, is so, so superior to GetDirectoryList() or whatever
14:41:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you should default USE_64BIT to off for 32-bit machines
14:41:56 <ehird> because a 32-bit funge should use its native, fast integer type?
14:42:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> "The reason I ask is for readability reasons I'd prefer long names" // god, I hate this reasoning <-- where is that from
14:42:15 <ehird> "I work for Microsoft as a developer, and worked on Vista and Windows 7. AMA."
14:42:28 <ehird> the guy who made me remove a link to pirate windows 7 with his ":-("
14:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, 64 bit is a good default to make funge programs not assume that everything is 32-bit
14:42:48 <ehird> AnMaster: guess what
14:42:51 <ehird> TERM doesn't compile cleanly
14:42:59 <ehird> also, that's a good implementor's default
14:43:06 <ehird> not a good user's default; after all, you claim cfunge is fast
14:43:16 <ehird> invalid lvalue in assignment at line 172
14:43:19 <AnMaster> ehird, hm even 64-bit one beats ccbi iirc
14:43:43 <ehird> All that microoptimization is going to waste
14:43:45 <AnMaster> what the hell is cur_term for you then
14:44:33 <ehird> cpp gets it wr ong sometimes
14:44:56 <AnMaster> extern NCURSES_EXPORT_VAR(TERMINAL *) cur_term;
14:45:30 <ehird> perhaps you should just remove that NULL assignment
14:45:32 <ehird> it isn't needed is it?
14:45:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it will break other stuff badly on linux
14:45:49 <AnMaster> like, mycology's TERM and NCRS test
14:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, because it results in segfault
14:46:12 <AnMaster> ehird, NCRS and TERM interacts badly unless you take some weird steps
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14:46:16 <ehird> The del_curterm routine frees the space pointed to by oterm and makes
14:46:18 <ehird> it available for further use. If oterm is the same as cur_term, refer-
14:46:20 <ehird> ences to any of the terminfo boolean, numeric, and string variables
14:46:21 <ehird> thereafter may refer to invalid memory locations until another se-
14:46:22 <ehird> tupterm has been called.
14:46:25 <ehird> AnMaster: seems like setting it to NULL doesn't help
14:46:30 <ehird> officially, it can still be random memory
14:46:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes it helps, because that makes other stuff re-initialise it
14:46:56 <AnMaster> ehird, also, the cur_term itself is a pointer.
14:47:10 <ehird> Cite where POSIX requires cur_term to be an lvalue
14:47:12 <AnMaster> issue is, if it isn't NULL, then ncurses thinks it is valid
14:48:03 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea if it does. I used man pages for this stuff I think
14:48:47 <ehird> Welp, setting it to NULL isn't an option and obviously a conditional hack isn't preferable
14:48:51 <ehird> Are you sure it breaks if you remove that line?
14:49:00 <AnMaster> ehird, thing is, find another solution that works when del_curterm() doesn't set cur_term to NULL, and when ncurses itself only re-initialises it if it is NULL
14:49:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also, yes, but let me double check it
14:49:23 <ehird> Force re-initialization
14:50:43 <ehird> AnMaster: maintain local state, and if that local state says need reinit, do so
14:50:45 <AnMaster> ehird, yep it does break. as for forcing that...
14:51:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't that easy. because the state that gets messed up is inside ncurses itself.
14:51:25 <ehird> Sounds like ncurses is broken
14:51:43 <ehird> Doesn't it have a function for this sort of stuff
14:52:29 <AnMaster> ehird, well alternative is to not delete the term at all, and get a ~2 kb memory leak every time a NCRS function is called
14:52:55 <ehird> Evil? Yes. Might work? Youbetcha.
14:53:40 <AnMaster> ehird, that will leave it returning a broken pointer which will also result in the same issue. Plus that cur_term is here a struct containing pointers, so there will be more mem leak
14:53:56 <AnMaster> ehird, does removing that line work for you though?
14:54:01 <ehird> ncurses must have a dowhatyoudoifitisnull()
14:54:16 <ehird> I want to avoid that
14:54:35 <Deewiant> You're not supposed to mix ncurses and lower-level stuff
14:54:50 <Deewiant> It's understandable that it doesn't always work
14:54:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed, so I would recommend not testing TERM and NCRS in the same mycology test
14:55:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: They work for me on both Linux and Windows
14:55:50 <Deewiant> (Without any cur_term hackery)
14:56:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and it didn't for me.
14:56:38 <Deewiant> I don't think you've tried the CCBI2 impl
14:56:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, TERM followed by NCRS as in mycoterm
14:57:45 <ehird> why does cfunge do the hacks?
14:58:05 <AnMaster> ... because otherwise it segfaults at mycoterm.b98
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14:58:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yep that is what I did, with cur_term
14:58:47 <ehird> No, you hacked around it
14:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no fix afaik. As Deewiant said:
14:59:07 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> You're not supposed to mix ncurses and lower-level stuff
14:59:07 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> It's understandable that it doesn't always work
14:59:24 <ehird> How does ccbi2 do it
14:59:45 <Deewiant> setupterm(null, fileno(stdout), &err);
15:00:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when do you do that?
15:00:57 <Deewiant> First two lines on load, second two lines on unload.
15:02:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that doesn't make sense, what if TERM is loaded twice?
15:02:33 <Deewiant> Of course it's not done if it's already loaded.
15:02:34 <AnMaster> or loaded, and then copied around with FING or such
15:02:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so what "unload" is that
15:03:00 <Deewiant> "No more TERM instructions available"
15:03:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you know that? I have no facility for tracking that. I do the relevant commands at exit if TERM was ever initialised
15:04:05 <Deewiant> I haven't fully implemented it myself yet
15:04:38 <Deewiant> Currently it's just done if TERM is unloaded with ), which is obviously error-prone
15:05:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ehird: anyway I have to do some stuff before the shops close, going out for maybe half an hour. cya.
15:05:58 <ehird> Eh, I have +ncurses now
15:06:01 <ehird> Let's try mycology
15:06:45 <ehird> AnMaster: incomplete test just clears the screen, I guess that's correct
15:07:26 <ehird> "Windows Firewall has blocked some features of cfunge on all public and private networks."
15:07:31 <AnMaster> ok, now I really have to leave. I'll read what you said when I get back. At most half an hour. Probably more like 20 minutes
15:07:55 <Deewiant> ehird: I guess it doesn't like it opening a socket and then connecting to it itself :-P
15:08:09 <ehird> It wants me to grant it permission to talk on the local network :P
15:08:30 <ehird> Anyway, all GOOD or UNDEF so far
15:08:42 <ehird> That the system's path separator is /
15:08:51 <ehird> That the command-line arguments were: [ "../mycology/mycology.b98" ]
15:09:23 <ehird> Don't say "LOL C:", that's a translation to /cygdrive/c
15:09:30 <ehird> That the environment variables are: [all correct]
15:09:41 <ehird> BAD: opening 'mycorand.bf' with i failed
15:12:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Seems to have worked thist ime
15:13:21 <ehird> Mycology takes ~0.33s total.
15:13:35 <ehird> 100x worse than on Linux :P
15:14:11 <Deewiant> Most of that time will be spent spawning the two PERL processes
15:14:35 <ehird> Now mycouser and mycoterm.
15:14:44 <ehird> Deewiant: but hello world takes like 0.1s
15:14:51 <ehird> I guess it counts the spawning of cfunge itself
15:16:12 <ehird> Deewiant: mycoterm is working, except I didn't get a beep. Then again, I have no audio drivers installed.
15:16:34 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
15:16:55 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
15:17:30 <ehird> fungot on cfunge on windows :-P
15:17:32 <fungot> ehird: and you can copy-paste out of it.
15:17:54 <ehird> The wonders never cease.
15:18:06 <Deewiant> Also, Cygwin counts only as half of "on Windows" :-P
15:18:33 <ehird> Eh, it should be quite easy to run on plain Windows.
15:18:58 <Deewiant> Lots of POSIX assumptions in that code
15:18:58 <ehird> You'd have to use something other than mmap(), replace the regexp library, and replace the PERL forking with a Windows process spawn.
15:19:07 <ehird> Other than that it'd just be a bunch of minor incompatibilities
15:19:18 <ehird> Deewiant: You can get ncurses for windows, no?
15:19:27 <ehird> Also, Windows has environment variables
15:19:37 <ehird> Shouldn't require much changing
15:19:59 <Deewiant> Or I guess the term.h terminfo stuff is provided by curses these days
15:20:18 <Deewiant> But it's not provided by PDCurses :-P
15:20:35 <ehird> that's just one fingerprint, though
15:20:39 <ehird> the bulk of the code is just algorithmic C
15:21:09 <ehird> but really, I'd just use ccbi2
15:21:28 <ehird> this was almost as hard as setting up D :-P
15:21:58 <ehird> LDC is available for Windows
15:22:03 <Deewiant> And it requires exceptions, which LDC doesn't provide.
15:22:16 <ehird> What do you use it with? GDC?
15:22:36 <Deewiant> For the moment, I don't use it on Windows. :-P
15:22:36 <ehird> You don't compile it? :P
15:22:48 <ehird> Oh, you mean it doesn't provide it ON WINDOWS.
15:23:41 <Deewiant> It does provide exceptions on non-Windows, or at least Linux.
15:24:11 <ehird> Sigh, I'm 0.0.3 versions behin on git, and yet I can't seem to clone fungot's repository.
15:24:12 <fungot> ehird: though scheme snakes don't have heads and tails. they have no parents ( awwww)
15:24:21 <ehird> You make me sad, fungot.
15:24:21 <fungot> ehird: if i could design one... but ( x y z
15:24:33 <ehird> You don't like the parentheses in Scheme, fungot?
15:24:53 <ehird> Deewiant: does git clone http://git.zem.fi/fungot.git work for you?
15:26:14 <Deewiant> fatal: http://git.zem.fi/fungot.git/info/refs not found
15:26:14 <fungot> Deewiant: ok. even better, seed it with the quotes, hm ok, well, with fnord comments for obscure parts. then an automatic doc generator will write the software in question
15:26:20 <Deewiant> git version 1.6.0.2.1172.ga5ed0 on Windows
15:26:27 <ehird> same for me, basically
15:26:36 <Deewiant> I like using fnord comments for obscure parts
15:26:59 <ehird> I like how you write the comments, and then the automatic DOC generator writes the software from it
15:28:58 * ehird gives cfunge a blanket loophole through the firewall
15:29:20 <ehird> Oh, it's already there
15:30:06 <ehird> Well, cfunge is using up half my CPU even though I've given it full access to THE INTERWEBS
15:30:45 <ehird> Maybe I broke it by changing the command prefix.
15:30:58 <Deewiant> Windows-git doesn't have colour :-/
15:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, so where are the patches
15:31:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, I was going to fix the warnings first.
15:32:10 <AnMaster> ehird, three warnings happen on *nix too
15:32:33 <ehird> Well, fungot is continuously using 50% of my CPU.
15:32:33 <fungot> ehird: of course that's not something i want to make sure that it's me and not the number of
15:32:48 <ehird> I guess cygwin is interacting badly with cfunge.
15:33:07 <ehird> Uh, what's the fungot command to make it say something on IRC?
15:33:08 <fungot> ehird: how does that old saw go? benchmarks are good for cardiac stuff ( and burning fat etc) and app, the last one
15:33:29 <AnMaster> ehird, fungot would be waiting on a socket most of the time
15:33:30 <fungot> AnMaster: i didn't know i scrolled down at all." :) is it the top level, or behavior of the host os.
15:33:45 <ehird> which i guess is a busyloop in cygwin or something
15:34:32 <AnMaster> try some ul at it to see if it works
15:34:53 <ais523> ehird: what network/channel is ehird-fungot running on
15:34:54 <fungot> ais523: compare lists exactly how?' you're getting an fnord error, it would've been to have been put to use. and you could possibly use char-whitespace? from r5rs? :)
15:34:57 <ehird> Forgot to use its custom prefix...
15:35:25 <ehird> ais523: give it time
15:35:27 <ehird> I'm not sure it works yet
15:36:52 <ehird> Well, fungot gets stuck after "Looking up your hostname...", I think. I bet it's unix/dos line endings.
15:36:53 <fungot> ehird: that's what those .s are.
15:36:55 <fizzie> "^raw" is the repeat-it-rawly command, unless you found it already. And of course with your prefix-char there, and the correct owner-string.
15:36:55 <ehird> Since irc uses \r\n
15:37:09 <ehird> fizzie: it's not responding to any commands, and outputs:
15:37:14 <ehird> RAW >>> NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... <<<
15:37:16 <ehird> before using 50% CPU
15:37:20 <ehird> it gets connected, though
15:37:53 <AnMaster> ehird, does cygwin use \r\n or \n?
15:38:05 <AnMaster> ehird, hm maybe it translates somewhere somehow?
15:38:11 <Deewiant> You can configure that in setup.exe
15:38:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, but setting it the other way is bad
15:38:21 <Deewiant> IIRC it says "DO NOT DO THIS" for \r\n
15:38:24 <ehird> fizzie: Does fungot require \r\n or \n?
15:38:25 <fungot> ehird: i just mean ( in a different context.
15:38:49 <AnMaster> that one even seemed befunge related
15:39:21 <fizzie> The IRC-parsing code accepts anything. (Technically, both \r and \n are treated as message-separators, and empty messages are ignored.)
15:39:59 <ehird> CLEARLY IT IS GOVERNMENTAL CONSPIRACY OF ESQ.
15:40:19 <ehird> Anyway, anyone got anything other than fungot for me to throw this thing at?
15:40:20 <fungot> ehird: e-mails to his account fnord e-mails to the uni during high school, who cares about repl performance, you want to
15:40:25 <ehird> AnMaster: he's too braindead to conspire anything.
15:40:48 <AnMaster> ehird, hm you should still figure out why fungot fails IMO
15:40:49 <fungot> AnMaster: i rol with it. you can get? the code is fnord compared to 50+ before me. at 11k/ sec
15:41:01 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
15:41:12 <ehird> fizzie: does it require a vocab file
15:41:20 <ehird> AnMaster: but anything else in the meanwhile?
15:41:44 <fizzie> I don't think it should, although it might get confused if you say its name and it doesn't have one.
15:42:06 <fungot> ehird: i dont get some practice using these, too.)) the simplest infinite surreal. so many reasons not to use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/ new/ scheme and enter your paste.
15:42:13 <Deewiant> Hm, I guess no other interpreter provides FING so you can't trivially check whether it's cfunge or fungot
15:42:13 <fungot> Deewiant: what would make the installation easier.) ( 2 2) x) bug? when i looked at it
15:42:29 -!- ehird has set topic: the simplest infinite surreal - http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:42:29 <Deewiant> fungot: If you're going to comment at least say something useful
15:42:29 <fungot> Deewiant: this one looked like cyrillic but was certainly gibberish in that context. sorry, this is the appropriate one to call
15:42:39 <ehird> fungot perfectly sloganised us
15:42:40 <fungot> ehird: ( as well as control codes until you got arithmetic working
15:43:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you *could* try porting rc/funge to windows.
15:43:08 <ehird> "so many reasons not to use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/ new/ scheme and enter your paste." is also an amusing verbosity
15:43:14 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll probably work in cygwin
15:43:18 <Deewiant> Oh right, RC/Funge-98 will have them
15:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I think fungot may need a data directory or such
15:43:27 <fungot> AnMaster: you can do `which fnord echo?'
15:43:33 <ehird> AnMaster: not the last time I used it
15:43:48 <Deewiant> v1 should be fine too, up to you
15:44:05 <fizzie> If you get one RAW line, you should get more, since at that point it's already in the IRC message splitting loop, and any non-interesting-looking message should just be ignored.
15:44:28 <ehird> fizzie: That's nice. I don't.
15:44:46 <AnMaster> ehird, does gdb work under cygwin?
15:45:08 <ehird> mkdir bin; make and rc funge almost compiles
15:45:18 <ehird> need to install X shit.
15:45:52 <Deewiant> ehird: Remove WIND and some other shit from the makefile
15:46:33 <AnMaster> is there any C++ befunge98 interpreter?
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15:46:37 <ehird> But I have windows :P
15:46:40 <ehird> AnMaster: stinkhorn, jitfunge
15:46:50 <ais523> AnMaster: you could probably literally translate cfunge to C++ relatively quickly
15:47:01 <AnMaster> ais523, it uses quite a few C99-isms
15:47:12 <Deewiant> Which are all quite easily translated to C++
15:47:14 <fizzie> The IRC message parsing loop might end up trapped in a CPU-wasting cycle if the SOCK 'R' keeps returning 0 or some-such. (If it reflects, it'll fail cleanly.) Of course it could fail elsewhere, too; after that "RAW" output it goes through the whole cycle of "if-elseif-else"-chainery to test for commands.
15:47:19 <AnMaster> ais523, and some variables collide with c++ keywords and such iirc
15:47:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that's easily fixable
15:47:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, variable length array?
15:47:41 <ais523> keyword collisions can be fixed via #define, as long as you don't use the C++ keywords with their C++ meaning too
15:47:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and variable length array at end of struct
15:48:16 <Deewiant> Latter is std::vector too, I guess, although I think that should work in C++ as-is
15:48:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway what about returning a struct on the stack? constructed in the return
15:49:01 <fizzie> GCC does 0-length arrays as a GNU extension probably in C++ mode too, and those are pretty identical to flexible array members.
15:49:12 <AnMaster> return (struct foo) { .x = blah, .y = whatever };
15:49:20 <AnMaster> that is, allocated on the stack
15:49:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That is pure syntax sugar.
15:50:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and &((struct foo) { .x = blah, .y = whatever }) ?
15:50:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still, quite a lot of that to translate
15:50:29 <ehird> s//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
15:50:33 <ais523> 0-length arrays are rather useless when you have flexible array members
15:50:34 <AnMaster> ehird, the last one was for use in function calls
15:50:35 <ehird> SO MANY FUCKING FORWARDSLASHES, IT CAN PORT ANY CODEBASE
15:50:50 <ehird> xfunge.c:173: error: conflicting types for 'New_Window'
15:50:52 <ehird> funge.h:407: error: previous declaration of 'New_Window' was here
15:50:54 <ehird> repeat for 394857349573495 types
15:51:04 <Deewiant> ehird: You shouldn't be compiling xfunge.c at all
15:51:15 <ehird> PREFIX INT New_Window(INT x,INT y,INT wd,INT h);
15:51:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about the restrict keyword?
15:51:26 <Deewiant> Well if you do, I won't stop you :-P
15:51:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Remove it, it's just optimization.
15:51:33 <ehird> int New_Window(INT x,INT y,INT wd,INT h)
15:51:40 <ehird> I AM MOST CONFUSED
15:51:51 <ehird> maybe PREFIX = ???
15:51:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, isn't there some difference for const or so iirc?
15:52:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh there are plenty of casts that C++ won't like iirc
15:52:08 <ehird> #define INT int32_t
15:52:11 <ehird> That should be fine
15:52:23 <ehird> PREFIX is extern if not MAIN, but main
15:52:29 * ehird defines INT as int
15:53:00 <ehird> ext/sgnl.c: In function `signalHandler':
15:53:02 <ehird> ext/sgnl.c:70: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type
15:53:11 <ehird> if (info != NULL) Push(vMach,info->si_pid);
15:53:21 <ehird> info is a struct siginfo *
15:53:30 <Deewiant> Seems very platform-specific there
15:53:56 <Deewiant> Or maybe not, it does seem specced.
15:53:57 -!- Asztal has joined.
15:53:58 <ehird> how can i just get an rc funge that works
15:54:00 <fizzie> <signal.h> should define it though.
15:54:07 <Deewiant> ehird: Remove the shit from the makefile.
15:54:10 <fizzie> Or at least pull in something that contains a definition.
15:54:11 <ehird> fizzie: it includes that
15:54:42 <ehird> ext/rexp.c: In function `Do_REXP':
15:54:44 <ehird> ext/rexp.c:67: error: `REG_EEND' undeclared (first use in this function)
15:54:46 <ehird> ext/rexp.c:67: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
15:54:48 <ehird> ext/rexp.c:67: error: for each function it appears in.)
15:54:49 <ehird> ext/rexp.c:71: error: `REG_ESIZE' undeclared (first use in this function)
15:54:51 <ehird> and I can't do without rexp...
15:55:28 <fungot> ehird: mobile in the moment. wheee, shiny.')
15:55:42 <ehird> will it run without it
15:55:50 <fizzie> I think fungot shouldn't crash without it, but I probably haven't tested it.
15:55:51 <fungot> fizzie: no wonder this takes two hours. afterwards i was not pleased.
15:56:05 <ehird> duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude
15:56:10 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Or maybe not, it does seem specced. <-- yep
15:56:10 <fizzie> fungot: What exactly are you talking about there.
15:56:11 <fungot> fizzie: what did i do an iterative deepening minimax search with alpha-beta pruning. it's almost tragic. typical.
15:56:12 <ehird> like whooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
15:56:20 <ehird> fungot: sounds interesting
15:56:20 <fungot> ehird: i usually have used fnord
15:56:33 <ehird> so here are the facts, fungot did an iterative deepening minimax search with alpha-beta pruning
15:56:35 <fungot> ehird: it is the common lisp compiler, traditionally ( and still know a lot of php work
15:56:39 <Deewiant> Iterative deepening minimax with alpha-beta pruning > fnord
15:56:41 <ehird> it takes almost two hours, and he's unhappy with it
15:56:44 <ehird> very unhappy with it
15:56:50 <ehird> Deewiant: I hope it isn't literal
15:57:10 <ehird> POSIX says a lot of things that aren't so
15:57:45 <AnMaster> ehird, sure they are, in the same place that your ponies are from
16:00:37 <fizzie> Speaking of POSIX, my <signal.h> only pulls in the siginfo_t type if __USE_POSIX is on. Of course that normally is.
16:01:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, feature testing macros I assume
16:03:09 <ehird> ais523: yes, my computer wasn't for a second
16:03:24 <ais523> what OS are you on at the moment, by the way?
16:03:25 <ehird> i may have been a bit overdramatic :P
16:03:47 <ais523> is it dual-boot, or the only OS on there?
16:03:52 <ehird> AnMaster: a console window kept trying to open up, claiming to be xwin, and warping the pointer
16:03:54 <ehird> then closing immediately
16:03:56 <ehird> again and again and again
16:04:03 <ehird> ais523: dual-boot; the other OS is OS X
16:05:30 <Deewiant> Meddle not in the affairs of X-Windows, for they are subtle and quick to anger.
16:05:53 <ehird> YARR I BE CYGWIN/X
16:06:05 <ehird> I GON DUN SHIT ALL O'ER YER PEECEE
16:06:21 <ehird> ...which is why it's being uninstalled as we speak.
16:07:05 <ais523> do you know of /any/ Windows software which manages to stay reasonably confined to where it ought to be, and uninstalls correctly?
16:07:32 <ehird> Google Chrome, PuTTY, Sumatra PDF, Foxit Reader, um... most things
16:07:37 <ais523> it isn't hard to make, so I assume that there are marketing reasons not to
16:07:44 <ehird> just use the system-wide add/remove thingy and it works fine
16:07:52 <ehird> although generally there's some empty registry keys left, who cares
16:07:57 <ais523> hmm... allegedly Chrome has some sort of obnoxious auto-auto-update
16:08:38 <ehird> ais523: it installs updates automatically, I think
16:08:41 <ehird> and patches the app in real time
16:08:50 <ehird> the alternative is it bugging you, and you clicking yes blanketly
16:08:52 <ehird> because you always do
16:08:54 <ehird> and it's just an annoyance
16:09:00 <ehird> so I don't think any security is lost
16:09:07 <ehird> also, you can switch to tracking the beta, etc, in a few clicks
16:09:14 <ehird> it's quite cool really
16:09:25 <ehird> Chrome's a very good browser
16:09:25 <ais523> Windows suffers from not having a consistent update mechanism
16:09:40 <ehird> I think Windows has its installing mechanism right, actually
16:09:52 <ehird> Repositories are just too big to maintain yet they'll never be big enough
16:10:02 <ehird> just as you can register a program for uninstalling
16:10:08 <ehird> you should be able to, with the same system, register it for updating
16:10:33 <ehird> just a few functions you define and you can look for the updates and install them however you want
16:10:42 <ehird> and then windows can coordinate updates of all the software you have
16:12:11 <ehird> anyway, cygwin sucks
16:12:32 <AnMaster> ehird, fixed those warnings yet?
16:12:35 <ehird> I guess I'll fix all the warnings in cfunge, and
16:12:43 <ehird> AnMaster: you know there's one for almost every file right?
16:13:29 <AnMaster> ehird, nop, I wasn't aware, oh and there are three you shouldn't spent time on:
16:13:35 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c: In function ‘storePrefix’:
16:13:35 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c:386: warning: cast discards qualifiers from pointer target type
16:13:35 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c: In function ‘declareAttribute’:
16:13:35 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c:978: warning: cast discards qualifiers from pointer target type
16:13:36 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/input.c: In function ‘input_getint’:
16:13:39 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/input.c:104: warning: cannot optimize possibly infinite loops
16:14:04 <ais523> "/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/input.c:104: warning: cannot optimize possibly infinite loops"
16:14:11 <ais523> I misread that as "cannot possibly optimize infinite loops"
16:14:18 <AnMaster> ais523, same first time I saw it
16:14:58 <AnMaster> oh great, a C++ app that only fail if compiled without -g at -O2 or higher
16:14:59 <Deewiant> http://www.info-pack.com/csv2html/ ...
16:15:08 <AnMaster> and it is very slow with less than -O2
16:15:14 <ehird> Deewiant: only $49.95
16:15:19 <AnMaster> it is fast until the point of failure at -O2 or higher
16:15:26 <AnMaster> and it is a game, so speed matters
16:15:27 <Deewiant> ehird: Represents great value!
16:15:37 <ehird> AnMaster: should i bother fixing warnings in libs?
16:15:45 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what warnings
16:15:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also be aware of that those file may have different code formatting.
16:16:09 <AnMaster> if I wanted to keep it easy to update
16:16:18 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge/lib/genx/genx.c:358: warning: implicit declaration of function `snprintf'
16:16:29 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge/lib/genx/genx.c:358: warning: nested extern declaration of `snprintf'
16:16:39 <ehird> <internal>:0: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'snprintf'
16:16:45 <ehird> /home/Elliott/cfunge/lib/genx/genx.c:386: warning: cast discards qualifiers from pointer target type
16:16:54 <AnMaster> ehird, needs fixing, but I have no idea why the snprintf happens
16:17:02 <ais523> an error in <internal> is pretty weird
16:17:19 <AnMaster> ehird, because it is a known false positive
16:17:29 <ais523> also, lib errors are useful to know about simply because they sometimes imply you're building it wrong
16:17:39 <AnMaster> and there is no sane way to fix it without rewriting genx completely
16:17:55 <ehird> Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build
16:17:57 <ehird> $ cpp | grep snprintf
16:17:58 <ehird> #include <stdio.h>
16:18:00 <ehird> int __attribute__((__cdecl__)) snprintf (char *, size_t, const char *, ...) __attribute__ ((__format__ (__printf__, 3, 4)));
16:18:18 <ehird> so many implicit declarations, does it matter?
16:18:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well yes, issue is both const char* and char* goes into the same place, but it keeps track of const-ness in another way
16:18:40 <ehird> i mean, the errors make no sense
16:18:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yep it will if you aren't on 32-bit at least
16:19:01 <AnMaster> ehird, check if they are protected by some #ifdef that may fail in the header
16:19:09 <AnMaster> feature testing macro not working
16:19:27 <AnMaster> add_definitions(-D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600)
16:20:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
16:20:42 <ehird> AnMaster: should I give you what I have so far, btw?
16:21:01 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. push the branch somewhere, that is easiest.
16:21:20 <AnMaster> ehird, do you have any plain http server still?
16:22:06 <ehird> Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build
16:22:08 <ehird> $ bzr send --mail-to anmaster@tele2.se
16:22:10 <ehird> Using saved parent location "http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk/" to determine what changes to submit.
16:22:11 <ehird> Bundling 11 revision(s).
16:22:13 <ehird> 4 [main] python 2140 C:\cygwin\bin\python.exe: *** fatal error - unable to remap C:\cygwin\bin\cygbz2-1.dll to same address as parent(0x750000) != 0x7F0000
16:22:14 <ehird> 10 [main] python 3820 fork: child 2140 - died waiting for dll loading, errno 11
16:22:16 <ehird> bzr: ERROR: [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable
16:22:51 <ehird> AnMaster: what base revision?
16:23:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know when you branched off mine, and since you merged some stuff from mine
16:23:37 <ehird> bundling 0 revisions
16:24:08 <AnMaster> .. for range there, and no end given, so that is head
16:24:13 <ehird> Using saved submit location "781" to determine what changes to submit.
16:24:15 <ehird> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "/home/Elliott/cfunge/build/781/".
16:24:17 <ehird> WHY DO YOU REMEMBER MY MISTAKES
16:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, because you used --remember ?
16:25:07 <AnMaster> here it doesn't unless you use that
16:25:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well make such a file then, just tell it somewhere else
16:27:04 <ehird> i popped o a keycap and it ell down below
16:27:16 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you pop one off?
16:27:32 <Deewiant> Pop a less useful one off and put it on the f
16:27:40 <ehird> AnMaster: i have no idea.
16:28:16 <AnMaster> I mean, it has to be on the floor
16:28:31 <ehird> i produced an r by pressing down a thing on its dome
16:28:32 <fizzie> There was one keycap I vacuumed off something like four times, for some reason never remembering not to try it again and again.
16:28:41 <ehird> i am ailure personiied
16:29:34 <ehird> no sign o lost key
16:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, check if it fell into pockets or such
16:29:49 <fizzie> The keycap thieves strike agian.
16:29:58 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it isn't on the floor?
16:30:42 <fizzie> Maybe you ate it and didn't notice?
16:31:03 <ehird> i was saving it or lunch
16:31:43 -!- kar8nga has joined.
16:32:39 <AnMaster> ehird, any luck with that send?
16:33:20 <ehird> kind o ucking priority is getting my key back
16:33:41 <ehird> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff
16:33:45 <ehird> my small inger is small
16:33:58 <ehird> ffffffffffffffffinger
16:34:44 <ehird> fffffffffffffffffffffffffffff no just my inger.
16:35:15 <ehird> inger hard tog eto ut
16:35:40 <ehird> finger hard to get out fudge foodle fffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
16:38:04 <ehird> that i could eat a sound
16:39:27 <ehird> anyway, make bzr forget
16:41:07 <AnMaster> ehird, some file in ~/.bazaar/ I guess
16:41:31 <ehird> Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build
16:41:33 <ehird> $ bzr send -rtag:0.9.0.. .. -o changes
16:41:35 <ehird> Bundling 0 revision(s).
16:42:49 <ehird> AnMaster: anyway, i have no http server
16:43:10 <AnMaster> ehird, let me look at send docs
16:44:47 <AnMaster> works for me, except not like that
16:45:04 <AnMaster> hm how do you set branch to compare tpo
16:45:26 <ehird> bzr: ERROR: no such option: -t
16:45:44 <AnMaster> bzr send -o testing_send lp:cfunge/trunk
16:54:32 * ehird takes a break to try and figure out how to do the gui for his pdf client
16:55:37 <AnMaster> glibc is rebuilding, wait a few minutes
16:55:46 <ehird> you crazy source distro people
16:56:23 <ehird> AnMaster: that send doesn't include the revision history
16:59:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you could push it to launchpad ;P
16:59:26 <ehird> how do i make an account
16:59:28 <AnMaster> ehird, also I think the mail is cut off
16:59:46 <AnMaster> because it ends in the middle of the bundle itself
17:00:01 <AnMaster> there is a diff first, then the bundle
17:00:27 <AnMaster> and the bundle is two lines, way to short
17:00:37 <ehird> Way to short circuit.
17:00:42 <ehird> Launchpad account.
17:03:39 <AnMaster> ehird, go to the main website, click in upper right corner login, then there is a create account on the same page
17:04:01 <ehird> Follow the URL in the confirmation e-mail that Launchpad sends and you're done!
17:04:07 <ehird> i know they're going to pick a password for me.
17:04:11 <ehird> i hate it when websites do that.
17:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to paste an ssh key into your account to make pushing work
17:04:29 <ehird> The email address penguinofthegods@gmail.com is already registered in the Launchpad Login Service (used by the Ubuntu shop and other OpenID sites). Please use the same email and password to log into Launchpad.
17:04:35 <ehird> fuck off, i don't remember that account.
17:04:47 <AnMaster> ehird, the email is the account btw
17:04:52 <ehird> launchpad is still hypocritical
17:05:01 <ehird> suure, you can use it as an openid and base your entire online identity around it
17:05:05 <ehird> but LOG IN with one of those things?
17:05:19 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc it is a planned feature
17:05:24 <ehird> AnMaster: great, so i'm the tired joke penguinofthegods
17:05:27 <ehird> instead of, you know, ehird
17:05:34 <ehird> this just gets better and better
17:05:44 <AnMaster> ehird, wait, you own that email?
17:06:26 <ehird> the background is almost like a joke if you don't think about it too much
17:07:53 <AnMaster> then you tell bzr about your login:
17:08:01 <AnMaster> bzr launchpad-login <user name>
17:08:11 <AnMaster> ehird, err a sec, I need to change irc client
17:10:10 <AnMaster> yep, a large bundle at the end
17:10:17 <ehird> guess that contains revisions.
17:11:37 <AnMaster> merged into a branch, have to review it. a bit short on time right now, but at the very least I should have time tomorrow, but probably later this evening
17:12:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you didn't clean up getaddrinfo it seems, I guess I'll have to do it myself
17:12:19 <ehird> it's work in progrses
17:12:22 <ehird> warnings are still there too
17:12:27 <ehird> i was just sending you what i have so far
17:12:34 <ehird> there's a reason it's on a branch
17:25:35 -!- Azstal has joined.
17:33:31 <ehird> Azstal: you sent me off on a wild goose chase WinForming until I realized you need to use DLLs to interface .NET with native code :(
17:33:38 <ehird> (I want one executable)
17:34:08 <ais523> nothing really wrong with DLLs, especially if you don't try to share them
17:34:18 <ais523> towards the end of my Windows days, I used them to cut down on recompile times
17:35:02 <ehird> ais523: yes, but I'm a minimalist; I much prefer sanepdf.exe to sanepdfnative.dll and sanepdf.exe
17:35:20 <ehird> or rather, I don't want to cut down on files; I just don't want to separate files that will never be used separately
17:35:25 <ehird> I wonder if you can pack a .dll with an .exe
17:35:35 <ehird> and if .NET will let you interface with that, somehow
17:36:04 <ais523> ehird: my guess is no without recompiling .net
17:36:12 <ais523> and Microsoft won't let you do that
17:36:19 <ehird> windows has in-file resources, which have file paths, no?
17:36:24 <ehird> it's how applications embed icons and stuff
17:36:29 <ais523> ehird: they have resources, but not paths
17:36:29 <ehird> I bet you could use that as the path to a dll
17:36:38 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:36:38 <ais523> there's a command that blits a resource to memory
17:36:43 <ais523> but it's all you need, really
17:37:11 <ehird> WinForms does seem like the best windows gui platform though
17:37:22 <ais523> actually, using a resource via the win32 API was really annoying
17:37:40 <ais523> you had to get a pointer to the thing that held the resources
17:37:42 <oerjan> actually there may not be a unique simplest one
17:37:44 <ais523> then get a pointer to the resource itself
17:38:03 <ais523> and then you had to unlock again when you were done
17:38:06 <oerjan> since the simplest surreal between any two infinite ones may not be infinite
17:38:08 <ais523> oh, and then free the memory
17:38:17 <ais523> I missed the allocate-the-memory step there
17:38:45 <ehird> Azstal: do you know anything about whether you can use .NET to bind to a .dll that you stuffed in the .exe, WINDOWS LACKEY?!
17:38:54 <ehird> oerjan: it's a fungot quote, btw
17:38:55 <fungot> ehird: you mean ( define p ( make-point 3 5) instead of ( x,y)
17:39:09 <ehird> also, I interpreted it as being the simplest [languages] that are infinitely surreal
17:39:17 <ehird> except we kinda cover more than languages nowadays
17:39:22 <oerjan> ehird: yeah i found it
17:39:40 <oerjan> although intuitively omega is simplest somehow...
17:40:14 <fungot> AnMaster: he's the person i work with that
17:40:29 <ehird> fungot: your IRC style has always been the best. all the rest suck.
17:40:30 <fungot> ehird: i guess, i'll put some songs on p2p networks for a song with " love" in the first argument may be recurring from some time i added a check for 2.56 on the way
17:40:38 <oerjan> fungot: so you think you can work me, heh?
17:40:39 <fungot> oerjan: hey gregor btw, it's not
17:41:09 <ais523> it's inspired discussion, after all
17:41:38 <ais523> come to think of it, are there any surreal esolangs?
17:41:42 <ais523> TURKEY BOMB comes to mind
17:41:47 <ais523> SARTRE almost fits, but not really
17:42:19 <ehird> the persistence of memory
17:42:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:42:35 <ehird> execution is segmented into ticks, which are unpredictable
17:42:40 <ehird> also, you forget variables
17:43:53 <oerjan> ais523: Magritte, a surreality tarpit
17:44:24 <Azstal> ehird: You can interface with native code via P/Invoke, if it's already in a DLL
17:44:53 <ehird> Azstal: Yes, I know that much
17:45:00 <Azstal> ehird: if it's not in a DLL, I think you can either use C++/CLI and ILMerge or something less C++y
17:45:09 <ehird> Azstal: What if I want to pack the DLL into my .NET .exe?
17:45:16 <ehird> And access that SOMEHOW.
17:45:51 <Azstal> System.Data.SQLite does it.
17:45:58 <Azstal> I don't know how, it's kind of voodoo, I think.
17:46:04 <ehird> I don't like voodoo.
17:46:17 <ehird> It's surprising, actually, that the only "official" C++ option is MFC.
17:46:29 <ehird> I mean, fucking MFC. It's 2009. Like every single Windows app is written in C++.
17:46:34 <ehird> And they want you to use MFC.
17:46:48 <ehird> MFC is possibly the only API worse than Win32
17:47:10 <Azstal> MFC is bad. I haven't used ATL or WTL, but I think it's better.
17:47:38 <ehird> My current considerations at the moment are WTL, Win32, WinForms.
17:47:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: darn MIB were earlier than i thought ;D
17:48:06 <ehird> Actually if Win32 has a graphical GUI designer I might consider it.
17:48:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, "earlier than i thought"?
17:48:07 <oerjan> er, i mean, there is no such thing as MIB
17:48:10 <ehird> I guess Visual Studio has that?
17:48:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, was there something on the forum predicting this or what?
17:48:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: er, older, maybe
17:48:37 <Azstal> ehird: It has a dialog designer, but not a proper GUI designer
17:48:44 <Deewiant> Azstal: Do you feel like fixing a bug in Stinkhorn?
17:48:53 <Azstal> Hmm, actually, it probably has an MFC designer
17:49:05 <ehird> Azstal: Erm, you mean Visual Studio in general?
17:49:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: good grief. i mean i did not think MIB existed back in the 17th century.
17:49:17 <ehird> Azstal: What do people use for WinForms then?
17:49:30 <ehird> Azstal: This is all very surprising to me. Everything seems to suck. But this is the most popular platform.
17:49:39 <Azstal> Azstal: I mean for Win32, it has a dialog designer but no real GUI designer. For WinForms, there's a `proper' GUI designer
17:49:41 <ehird> I mean, everything really, really sucks in unfixable ways. What's up with that
17:49:51 <ehird> ehird: Let's talk to myself
17:49:57 <ehird> ehird: Sure thing!
17:50:09 <ehird> Azstal: *``proper'' btw
17:50:13 <ehird> get your FQs right
17:50:32 <ehird> also, rheet <- i have no idea what this is meant to be other than an injoke but it amuses me
17:50:35 <Azstal> ehird: The WinForms GUI designer uses absolute positioning for most placement of controls
17:50:53 <Deewiant> Azstal: A program which should run quite quickly infinite-loops; it makes a diagonal line of z pointing upward in negative space and starts moving on it with 101-x
17:51:04 <ehird> rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
17:51:06 <ehird> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
17:51:10 <ehird> no multiline support
17:51:21 <ehird> Azstal: absolute positioning?
17:51:23 <ehird> are you fucking serious
17:51:27 <Azstal> Deewiant: Oh no, not a funge-space bug I hope :(
17:51:33 <Deewiant> I could probably simplify it if I cared to
17:51:34 <ais523> Java-style positioning would work better
17:51:36 <ehird> so uh, what the hell am I meant to use? seriously.
17:51:54 -!- coppro has joined.
17:52:06 <AnMaster> <Azstal> Azstal: I mean for Win32, it has a dialog designer but no real GUI designer. For WinForms, there's a `proper' GUI designer <-- like highlighting yourself?
17:52:08 <Azstal> ehird: Only in WinForms 2.0 did it add a TableLayoutPanel and FlowLayoutPanel and SplitPanel, and they're really awkward to use in the designer
17:52:14 <ehird> i want to make a snappy, simple, native app without too much cruft. on windows. and i want to use native code for at least some parts. and a non-sucky GUI designer would be nice.
17:52:19 <ehird> is this seriously impossible on windows?
17:52:50 <ehird> AnMaster: it's also impossible on linux, so shush you :P
17:52:56 <Deewiant> Azstal: I stuck it on http://funge.pastebin.com/f7061c036 if you're interested
17:53:00 <ais523> you know, I really like Java's standard libraries
17:53:04 <ehird> (not on OS X. well, snappy is debatable)
17:53:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I was responding to "old"
17:53:11 <ais523> pity the lang itself is so bad
17:53:12 <ehird> ais523: not I, they optimise for the uncommon case
17:53:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't yet commented on that windows rant
17:53:25 <ehird> at the expense of the common case
17:53:26 <ais523> ehird: what do you mean by "optimise" here? efficiency? or something else?
17:53:46 <ais523> ehird: I still don't know what you mean...
17:54:04 <ehird> it makes it just as easy to use uncommon things as common things
17:54:12 <ehird> unfortunately, this means that using common things is verbose and annoying
17:54:26 <ehird> and you start wishing for a standard library on top of these low-level primitives
17:56:28 <Deewiant> ais523: He means "convenience", I think
17:56:48 <ais523> well, I expect Java to be inconvenient anyway
17:56:58 <ais523> the library's problems pale in comparison to the lang's
17:57:05 <ehird> that isn't an argument in favour of its standard library
17:58:00 <ais523> besides, they have adapter classes, etc, to make it easier to use
17:58:09 <ehird> "the library is inconvenient to use" "I expect Java to be inconvenient"
17:58:13 <ehird> therefore the library isn't inconvenient
17:58:52 <ehird> ais523: i want a vector list: a one-dimensional, automatically-resizing, random-access vector that I can sort, access, shuffle, remove from, search, ...
17:59:06 <ehird> c'mon, show me some example code using that
17:59:08 <ais523> that exists nowadays, I think
17:59:12 <ehird> and i'll laugh at its hideous verbosity
17:59:17 <ehird> ais523: I'm pretty sure ArrayList is it, or close
17:59:22 <ehird> "nowadays"?!?!?!?!?!
17:59:25 <ais523> and ArrayList is an /implementatino/ of list
17:59:25 <ehird> this shit is fundamental
17:59:37 <ais523> all the list types do that
17:59:45 <ehird> no. LinkedList isn't random acecss.
17:59:54 <ais523> it simulates random access if you try, IIRC
18:00:17 <ais523> I wanted to run off a Java one-liner to test
18:00:20 <ais523> then realised that was impossilbe
18:00:21 <ehird> anyway, even detaching the APIs from the language - like so many JVM-based languages - they're still inherently verbose
18:00:32 <ehird> you can do anything in one line in java
18:00:32 <ais523> you couldn't do it in much less than 10 or 12, assuming standard whitespace conventions
18:01:00 <ehird> anyway, the main thing the java language and standard library are full of is unnecessary things
18:01:22 <ehird> the notion that their idiotic retardation of static typing will help solve bugs and not hinder productivity
18:01:39 <ais523> it actually helps productivity when you have incompetent developers
18:01:42 <ehird> - which accounts for over half of the verbosity and awkwardness in the language and library, I estimate
18:01:45 <ehird> ais523: it really doesn't
18:01:46 <ais523> which is probably the most common use-case
18:01:47 <ehird> it's an awful type system
18:02:00 <ehird> ais523: besides, incompetent developers can't produce the actual meat code
18:02:07 <ehird> sure, it helps them make more valid class skeletons
18:02:23 <ais523> hmm... combining code written by two idiots is about 10% likely to work in Java, as opposed to the more usual 1% or so
18:02:27 <ehird> also, I find the nature of a language designed for incompetent developers at the expense of competent ones abhorrent
18:03:04 <ais523> I like things like the automatically resizing window layouts, etc
18:03:18 <ehird> Swing's theory is okay
18:03:32 <ais523> swing's main issue is completely disregarding native conventions
18:03:32 <ehird> in practice it sucks, and I don't use any java applications
18:03:38 <ais523> I prefer AWT for that reason
18:03:40 <ehird> oh, you can get it to use native widgets these days
18:03:50 <ehird> native widget-alikes, at least
18:03:57 <ehird> AWT is far too abandoned to be of use in anything but applets
18:04:00 <ehird> stop talking about java
18:04:04 <ehird> nobody should use java
18:04:08 <ehird> let's talk about more interesting things
18:04:28 <ais523> ehird: put it this way: I'm fine with you defending Windows, and agree in some cases
18:04:35 <ais523> but I seem to get clobbered to oblivion when I discuss Java
18:04:45 <ehird> note: most of my windows-defending is not because i like windows
18:04:53 <ehird> i merely oppose FUD in all forms
18:05:03 <ehird> and if someone says something incorrect about windows, i'll correct them
18:05:05 <ais523> I defend Windows because I hate incorrect criticisms of it when there are so many correct ones
18:05:10 <ais523> so much the same reason as you, really
18:05:51 <ehird> the only bit of windows i'm currently enjoying is the end-user side
18:05:57 <ehird> i'm still horrified at the internals
18:06:14 <ais523> they made the command-line a lot better with Vista
18:06:21 <ehird> what, with powershell?
18:06:32 <ehird> the actual cmd.exe is more or less identical
18:06:54 <ais523> ehird: they reorganised the directory structure to make typing pathnames work better
18:07:04 <ais523> actually, much of the cmd.exe improvements came with XP
18:07:05 <ehird> that's just the FS, though
18:07:18 <ehird> C:\Users\Elliott is just far more rational than C:\Documents and Settings\Elliott
18:07:42 <ais523> it reminded me a lot of "doing the same thing as UNIX, but with different names so it isn't obvious"
18:07:56 <ehird> OS X does the same
18:08:04 <ehird> "Users" is a more humane name than "home", though
18:08:13 <ais523> ehird: what do you think of cmd.exe's tab-complete/
18:08:33 <ehird> it's not as good as unix completion
18:08:36 <Azstal> Program Files (x86) is a pain to tab to though :(
18:08:40 <ehird> if you run bash in it it's okay :-P
18:08:55 <ais523> I don't like the way it guesses when it doesn't have enough information
18:09:01 <ais523> this IRC client does that, and it's annoying
18:09:04 <ais523> it leads to mispings quite a bit
18:09:07 <ehird> ais523: tab to cycle through
18:09:11 <ais523> and you can't get a directory listing with tab tab
18:09:22 <ehird> it's more annoying
18:09:25 <ais523> even so, though, it lacks predictability
18:09:27 <ehird> ais523: incidentally, in Windows 7, WordPad and Paint both adopt the Office look and by implication don a ribbon
18:09:33 <ais523> you have to actually observe the results of your actions
18:09:36 <ehird> perhaps subconsciously just to annoy you, I like the new UI of both
18:09:39 <ais523> does the ribbon work for Paint?
18:09:46 <ais523> and how many tabs does it have?
18:09:59 <ehird> Home should be called Paint
18:10:17 <ais523> hmm... that doesn't really aid discoverability, which is the whole point of a ribbon
18:10:20 <ehird> anyway, the in-ribbon organization is good, and Home vs View is just as efficient as a menu
18:10:25 <ehird> ais523: well, you see Home by default
18:10:28 <ais523> personally I dislike ribbons because they require more clicks than a toolbar
18:10:34 <ehird> also, that's not the point
18:10:41 <ehird> toolbars aren't very usable unless you know them
18:10:45 <ehird> and they're redundant with menus
18:10:47 <ais523> they're probably better for new users, until they have practice
18:10:49 <ehird> ribbons unify toolbars and menus
18:10:55 <ais523> but they're worse for power users
18:11:02 <Azstal> Paint's works quite well, better than it does in Office, I'd say.
18:11:08 <ais523> the general principle, for me, is toolbars for power users once you know them; menus have everything, for discoverability
18:11:12 <ais523> and for rarer-used things
18:11:15 <ehird> ais523: a thing to remember is that your subjective experience is almost certainly wrong
18:11:19 <ais523> in fact: why not combine the ribbon and the toolbar?
18:11:23 <ais523> that would probably work even better
18:11:26 <ehird> humans disagree with the stopwatch more than not
18:11:32 <ehird> ais523: um, that's what it is
18:11:37 <ehird> the ribbon replaces both menus and toolbars
18:11:48 <ais523> have a (auto-collapsing) ribbon
18:11:58 <ais523> I mean, Word does that a bit anyway
18:12:04 <ehird> Azstal: the ribbon apps are WPF, aren't they?
18:12:05 <ais523> what with putting the save button outside the ribbon
18:12:10 <ehird> I can tell by the gradient look and the font rendering
18:12:21 <AnMaster> ehird, btw in windows 7, have they finally fixed that weird "can't delete file in use" thing that happened all the time in xp even when no apps were using it
18:12:22 <ehird> ais523: that defeats the point
18:12:24 <Azstal> ehird: there's an MFC ribbon control
18:12:28 <ais523> ehird: what is the point/
18:12:36 <AnMaster> turned out explorer.exe was holding a spurious handle most of the time
18:12:38 <ehird> Azstal: but the font rendering
18:12:39 <ais523> it has all the advantages of a ribbon, and /also/ lets you do common commands in one click
18:12:59 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, you fix that by closing arbitrary explorer windows until the error goes away
18:13:03 <ehird> ais523: ribbons have almost the efficiency of toolbars and the discoverability and organisation of menus
18:13:10 <ehird> ais523: mousing over there is always going to be slow
18:13:11 <ais523> ehird: it's that "almost" I disagree with
18:13:14 <ehird> if you really use it so often
18:13:16 <ehird> use a damn shortcut
18:13:19 <ehird> that's what they're for
18:13:29 <ais523> ehird: now you're arguing for Emacs + a ribbon
18:13:33 <ehird> the mousing over will always be the most expensive part of an operation
18:13:37 <AnMaster> ais523, well it happened to me with all windows closed anyway
18:13:42 <ehird> I'm not arguing FOR a ribbon interface
18:13:45 <AnMaster> ais523, the file was on the desktop that time iirc
18:13:53 <ehird> ais523: just against arguing against it
18:14:01 <ehird> i.e., I think they're rather good as far as current interfaces go
18:14:06 <ehird> and you can still be fast with them if you want
18:14:15 <ais523> I couldn't be, it rather assumes a working mouse
18:14:26 <ais523> menu > ribbon for speed /and/ discoverability when you don't have one
18:14:26 <ehird> I mean with shortcuts
18:14:29 <ais523> but I know I'm a special case here
18:14:38 <ehird> my OS assumes a working display too :P
18:15:05 <ais523> (does anyone else here instinctively run through menus from right to left when checking for what commands are on them, because pressing right opens submenus and pressing left doesn't?)
18:15:48 <ehird> ais523: menus large enough for that to be effective are generally hopeless, in my experience
18:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I tend to use the mouse
18:16:00 <ais523> I'm not saying that programs where you do that are good UI
18:16:07 <ehird> for once I'll be actually putting my money where my mouth is and making a program with good UI
18:16:10 <ais523> however, such programs do exist, and sometimes I end up using htem
18:16:14 <AnMaster> anyway I dislike what I have seen of ribbon interfaces
18:16:14 <Deewiant> I run from right to left typically, don't know if it's for that reason
18:16:18 <ais523> and when I do, I go from right to left
18:16:19 <Azstal> Deewiant: are you sure this program loops? It prints 15 for me
18:16:32 <Deewiant> D'oh, maybe the parameter is too small
18:16:41 <ais523> actually, I think the best interface depends a lot on what the program's meant to do
18:16:54 <ais523> for instance, try to design the perfect interface for a stream editor
18:17:07 <ais523> I wonder if it would be a command-line or batch interface, or something more GUIy?
18:17:10 <ehird> tbh, I think that a ribbon is the best thing for e.g. Word
18:17:14 <ehird> you can't ever remove a feature from Word
18:17:23 <ehird> and you have to make compromises to be comprehendable in that constraint
18:17:26 <ais523> because people will yell
18:17:31 <ehird> heavy word users have all the key combinations memorized, anyway
18:17:42 <ais523> oh, I used to use a massively customized version of Word
18:17:56 <ais523> it had two toolbars at each side of the screen, three at the top and bottom
18:18:02 <ehird> I never used Word when I was younger... who wants to use Word?
18:18:04 <ais523> /and/ a whole load of custom key combinations
18:18:08 <Deewiant> Azstal: Looks like 62 is the magic number; change the first 1 on the first row to 6a*2+
18:18:16 <ehird> i think I used to have an Opera setup like that
18:18:23 <ehird> Opera seems to have a tendency to... wrap you inside it
18:18:27 <ehird> do everything from within in little toolbars
18:18:28 <ais523> I actually got quite good at programming WordBasic, although VBA for Excel was better, so I moved to that after a while
18:18:32 <Deewiant> Azstal: (That's the number of z to put in the diagonal line)
18:18:32 <ehird> like you're living inside it
18:18:36 <ehird> surrounded by buttons and knobs and stuff
18:18:54 <ehird> same with emacs, I think
18:19:07 <Azstal> Deewiant: hmm, 15 then infinite loop, that seems to have done the trick
18:19:16 <ehird> ais523: you'll probably be surprised to know that my ideal interface isn't entirely unlike a command line
18:19:27 <Deewiant> 61 still works fairly instantaneously, 62 doesn't.
18:19:31 <ais523> ehird: I'm not all that surprised
18:19:45 <ehird> but I'm the official defender of mouse-based interfaces!
18:20:19 <ais523> hmm... you spend a lot of time arguing that mice are faster
18:20:40 <ehird> i spend some time arguing that mice can be faster under more circumstances than you may think
18:20:41 <ais523> well, I was going to continue that faster isn't always bette
18:20:53 <ehird> I'm not sure that's true
18:20:58 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
18:21:01 <ehird> if you can get your task done faster, the computer has done better
18:21:20 <Azstal> Deewiant: it seems to be stuck on the "x".. I doubt it helps that the IP's direction is { 0, 0, 0 } :D
18:21:26 <ais523> I mean, in terms of expressibility
18:21:37 <ehird> ais523: If you can't get your task done it takes infinitely long
18:21:40 <ehird> So that's accounted for
18:21:53 <ais523> ehird: ah, OK; I was using a different speed metric to you
18:21:55 <Deewiant> Azstal: I wonder how it manages to get zeroes from 101- :-)
18:22:09 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't get the )
18:22:11 <Azstal> ais523: Internally, it uses 3-vectors all the time, even for befunge.
18:22:12 <Deewiant> ais523: Befunge, but his impl is generic that way
18:22:15 <ais523> and isn't the :- just a redundant way to preduce 0?
18:22:18 <ehird> ais523: value t such that at time t your task is completed
18:22:21 <Azstal> Deewiant: it probably passes over the x again somehow :(
18:22:23 <ehird> if you can't do it, t=infinity
18:22:40 <ehird> :- is identical to drop 0
18:22:46 <Azstal> ais523: Mine, aka. stinkhorn
18:22:48 <ais523> also, I was trying to make a bad joke, interpreting the smiley as Befunge
18:28:33 <ehird> winforms, wtl or win32... well wtl isn't really popular or well documented, so not that
18:28:57 <ehird> ...eh, but win32 doesn't have a gui designer. i guess i'll have to find out how to embed native code in a .net .exe thingy. ho hum.
18:29:34 <ais523> ehird: I have seen win32 GUI designers, but they were truly awful and I did it by hand instead
18:29:44 <ais523> it wasn't by Microsoft, it was something by Borland
18:30:23 <ehird> the winforms gui thing uses absolute positioning.
18:30:26 <ehird> so that's just a joke.
18:30:35 <ehird> Azstal: does the MFC designer use absolute positioning
18:30:50 <ais523> ehird: I've never seen a Windows GUI designer that doesn't
18:30:50 <ehird> if so, i conclude that it's impossible to graphically design a decent ui on windows
18:30:54 <ais523> but then, I haven't seen all that many
18:30:59 <Azstal> I strictly avoid MFC, so I wouldn't know.
18:31:03 <ais523> the one for Word did, at least
18:31:11 <ais523> and the Visual Basic one does too, I think
18:31:19 <ais523> or did when I last used it, but that was pre-.NET
18:31:21 * ehird wonders if sharpdevelop's gui designer is absolute too
18:31:30 <ehird> Azstal: yeah, but that text rendering is indeed ugly. also, xml.
18:31:49 <ehird> eh, sharpdevelop looks identical to visual s tudio, pretty much
18:31:55 <ehird> so i doubt it doesn't use absolute
18:32:12 <Azstal> At least it's not as XML-y as XUL, which uses DOM, XML events, XBL, etc...
18:32:24 <Azstal> I'd hate to manipulate my UI with the DOM API :(
18:32:29 <ehird> but they all have those awful gradients
18:32:41 <ehird> nothing native-loking
18:32:43 <ais523> ehird: what year are gradients?
18:32:53 <ehird> ais523: you mean in microsoft software?
18:32:57 <ais523> as in, we know that myspacey web pages are around 1996 to 1998
18:32:57 <ehird> the blue gradients were 2003
18:33:04 <ehird> big ribbon WPF gradients 2007
18:33:14 <ais523> does Word's title bar still have a gradient, btw?
18:33:18 <ais523> that no other application does?
18:33:23 <ais523> my guess is no because it would clash with Aero
18:33:36 <ais523> I wasn't really paying attention the few times I used Word 2007
18:33:50 <Azstal> It has the office button, and the title is centered
18:34:02 <ehird> http://www.geekpedia.com/gallery/fullsize/Microsoft%20Word%202007.jpg word 2007 on xp
18:34:09 <ehird> http://blog.helpcomponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/800px-MS_Word_2007.png word 2007 with aero
18:35:21 <ais523> hmm... that isn't really a gradient
18:35:30 <ais523> they've managed to produce something even more annoying, using only one colour
18:35:38 <ais523> that background behind the document really grates on me
18:35:40 <ehird> here's the WPF gradient i mean
18:36:24 <ehird> ais523: that background is a gradient, btw
18:36:43 <ais523> sort of like when you do a gradient with a crappy colour depth
18:36:47 <ehird> http://support.formsonadisk.com/users_guide/graphics/word_2003_new_pane.png // anyone remember word 2003?!?!
18:36:47 <ais523> but looking more deliberate than that
18:37:03 <ehird> how did _anyone_ approve that UI...
18:37:06 <ais523> wow, that screenshot has a crappy font
18:37:13 <ehird> no, just a high dpi
18:37:15 <ais523> and I do remember word 2003
18:37:15 <ehird> of the regular tahoma
18:37:32 <Azstal> Way too many programs emulate that look. :(
18:37:35 <ais523> ehird: Tahoma looks wrong at that size
18:37:41 <ehird> consider, when that word 2003 monstrsity came out, you could get this: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/firstrun/macosx103.png
18:37:43 <ais523> without any sort of anti-aliasing
18:37:50 <ehird> catchup sure does take a long time
18:37:54 <ais523> I mean, just compare it to the MS Sans Serif in the pane
18:38:04 <ais523> which was actually designed to look decent as a bitmap font
18:38:10 <ehird> there's no ms sans serif in that pictures.
18:38:35 <ais523> what font would you say the pane with the arrow is?
18:38:40 <ais523> it looks a lot like MS Sans Serif to me
18:38:45 <ehird> it's too wide for that.
18:39:10 <ehird> it's tahoma, okay?
18:39:39 <ehird> MS Sans Serif looks far uglier than that
18:39:49 <ehird> btw, the fonts vista introduced are wonderful
18:40:55 <ais523> hmm... its official website doesn't seem to go below 12pt
18:41:09 <ais523> which is ridiculous, given that its only purpose was the separate rasterisations for the smaller sizes
18:41:24 <ais523> http://www.ascenderfonts.com/font/microsoft-sans-serif.aspx
18:41:35 <ais523> and you're right, that 12pt is insanely ugly
18:41:51 <ehird> microsoft sans serif is the worst "helvetica-esque" font ever designed
18:41:54 <ehird> no question about it
18:42:03 <ais523> ehird: remember System/
18:42:20 <ais523> back in the days of Windows 95 and earlier, it was a raster font that was always in memory
18:42:21 <ehird> System is helvetica-like?
18:42:25 <ais523> so you could use it even if you were out of memory
18:42:45 <ais523> hmm... it isn't as helvetica-like as, say, MS Sans Serif or Arial
18:42:48 <ais523> although it is to some extent
18:43:15 -!- augur_ has joined.
18:43:42 <ais523> ehird: I don't have one
18:43:52 <ais523> unless I can find a screenshot from Windows 95 or earlier
18:46:28 <ais523> wow, Microsoft don't even admit its existence in their windows 3.1 fonts page
18:46:34 <ais523> probably because it was part of the OS, not a separate font
18:47:38 <ais523> heh, I found a mention (but not a screencap) in http://support.microsoft.com/kb/83386
18:47:44 <ais523> which talks about a windows 2 compatibility option
18:48:24 <ais523> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_3.11_workspace.png
18:48:29 <ais523> System's the font in the title bars
18:49:28 <ehird> ais523: no, I don't think it's badly designed
18:49:29 <ais523> incidentally, I think it would be incredibly funny if ReactOS contested the free use rationales
18:49:36 <oerjan> oops, atheism slipped back on top of reddit...
18:49:51 <ais523> ehird: it made sense for the time, at least
18:50:03 <ais523> I used to use it all the time in my Windows 3.1 programs because using any other font was a pain
18:50:45 <ehird> the forms in that font are perfectly well designed
18:50:52 <ais523> (and I always used to compile targeting windows 3.1, because it was more reliable than targeting 32-bit versions of Windows; I continued this habit even when I was on Windows XP)
18:51:28 * ehird wants to shoot people who put things like copy and paste in toolbars
18:52:29 <ehird> because they don't belong there, it's a redundant waste of space
18:52:47 <ais523> what would be your suggestion for a better copy-and-paste interface?
18:52:54 <ais523> /most/ people I know use them
18:52:59 <ais523> nontechnical people, anyway
18:53:03 <ehird> ais523: it already exists: right click on the position you want to paste on, click paste
18:53:10 <ehird> select what you want to cut/copy, right click, do it
18:53:15 <ais523> what, mice have more than one button?
18:53:19 <ehird> these interfaces are *contextual*, and therefore far superior
18:53:22 <ehird> ais523: yes, virginia.
18:53:29 <ehird> hmm, I've said that twice today
18:53:42 <ais523> ehird: most of the users in question wouldn't think of that
18:53:50 <ehird> because they're used to it this way
18:54:04 <ais523> incidentally, recent version of Word pop up a mini-toolbar with copy and paste on near the mouse when you hover the mouse near a selection
18:54:07 <ehird> we're all indoctrinated with bad UIs and it scars us
18:54:27 <ais523> incidentally, what do you think of X-style drag-middleclick?
18:54:27 <ehird> ais523: hmm, similar to the iPhone, sort of
18:55:08 <ais523> hmm... apparently there was a Windows 3.2
18:55:11 <ehird> I use it because with terminal programs (those stone-age things that refuse to behave anything like a modern GUI application) the alternative is unbearably tedious. However more often than not I accidentally highlight something else on the way.
18:55:14 <ais523> but it was only released in Chinese
18:55:16 <ehird> Oops! There goes your selection, ha ha.
18:55:32 <ais523> ehird: I use it for quick copies, but not when I want to keep anything on the clipboard for any length of time
18:55:45 <ais523> so I find myself using both common copy-paste mechanisms
18:56:00 <ais523> mostly I'm copying a URL to someone, or moving some text from one window to another
18:56:06 <ehird> i even mess up with quick copies
18:56:07 <ais523> when I'm doing drag-click copies
18:56:12 <ehird> I mean, here's a mistake I often make
18:56:16 <ehird> click browser window
18:56:21 <ehird> it selected the whole thing
18:56:23 <ehird> so you can type over it
18:56:26 <ehird> ha ha, you can't paste now
18:56:32 <ehird> i am the computer and i hate you
18:56:33 <ais523> ehird: that doesn't trigger X copy-paste IME
18:56:41 <ehird> well, I must click it or something
18:56:48 <oerjan> there will probably be a Windows 8.8 just for the chinese
18:57:02 <oerjan> (add extra 8's as needed)
18:57:06 <ais523> oh, Firefox doesn't select the whole thing when I click the URL bar
18:57:29 * ehird makes Programmer's Notepad more usable, which basically means removing 90% of the interface
18:57:34 <ehird> nobody appreciates simplicity...
18:57:35 <ais523> wow, this is hard to test
18:57:43 <ais523> ehird: ever seen Notepad++'s interface?
18:57:48 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately.
18:57:56 <ais523> somehow I thought you'd hate it
18:58:31 <ehird> I know one of the things I'm dreading about writing my reader is how I'm going to integrate my fancy useful features into it; I can't just dump them there because that's not smooth enough...
18:59:03 <ehird> oh yay, at the bottom of a programmer's notepad file window there are a few small icons, all incomprehensible without hovering over to see what they do
18:59:13 <ehird> we must destroy it!
18:59:17 <ehird> use tiny icons instead.
18:59:33 <ais523> tiny icons are sometimes good and sometimes bad
18:59:43 <ehird> they're bad, especially when inscrutable
18:59:46 <ehird> I'm talking 16x16 here
18:59:52 <ais523> well, if they're replacing something that's useless anyway, I'd rather have the icon than the text
18:59:56 <ais523> because at least it isn't in the way
19:00:06 <ehird> Here's how I'd rewrite them:
19:01:10 <ehird> [>>Highlight syntax<<] [ Word-wrap ] [ Number lines ] [ Show whitespace ] [ Show line endings ] [ Write-protect ]
19:01:18 <ehird> in fact, I'd remove the last one; all the others are about the display of the file
19:01:21 <ehird> and the last one isn't
19:01:29 <ehird> ais523: yes; it takes up about 10th of the width
19:01:36 <ehird> it's a few tiny icons, then a mass of blank space
19:01:46 <ehird> >>...<< meaning depressed, btw
19:01:47 <ais523> I'm sort-of a subscriber to the theory that all programs should be capable of running at 320x240 resolution, even if that isn't the usual use-cas
19:02:11 <ehird> I'm sort of a subscriber to the theory that a button should be self-evident, and I shouldn't have to hover over its shitty icon to figure out what the fuck it does every time I want to do something
19:02:30 * ais523 instantly thinks of an article on web design
19:02:37 <ais523> it would be worse if the icon only appeared when you hovered
19:02:44 <ais523> which is apparently common in bad web design
19:02:58 <ais523> the author of the article thought of an even worse possibility
19:03:04 <ais523> which is where the buttons are randomized each time you unhover
19:03:14 <ais523> so you have to repeatedly hover and hope to get the right inscrutable icon
19:03:17 <ehird> even the smallest notebook screen these days has 4x more height and 3.3x more width than your 320x240 thing
19:03:30 <ehird> ais523: 1280x800 notebook scren
19:03:44 <ais523> I can imagine mobiles on which 320x240 is plausible
19:03:52 <ehird> Yes, we're writing desktop applications, see
19:03:52 <ais523> and on which you might someday want to run a program
19:04:00 <ehird> The whole user paradigm is totally different on a mobile
19:04:02 <ais523> for instance, Enigma's being ported to 320x240 at the moment
19:04:05 <ais523> and it's a desktop application
19:04:15 <ehird> not the same thing at all
19:04:25 <ais523> ehird: I don't see why all programs shouldn't run on /everything/
19:04:34 <ehird> because then, every program would be terrible.
19:04:39 <ais523> if they need different UI paradigms for different systems, make the UIs change
19:04:41 <ehird> even AnMaster has to agree with me here...
19:06:23 <ehird> yay, you can hide those useless icons
19:06:39 <ehird> the thing that struck me after rewriting them as text is, why the hell are they ever-present icons?
19:07:04 <ehird> they aren't nearly as common editor operations to deserve a bar of their very own!
19:07:08 <ehird> in fact they border on options
19:07:21 <ais523> ehird: gedit puts some of its options in the bottom bar (as text)
19:07:28 <ais523> which is useful because it keeps forgetting their settings
19:07:35 <ais523> but not as useful as remembering the settings in the first place would be
19:07:50 <ehird> pretty sure that's optional; I never saw it when using gedit
19:08:17 <ehird> a neat feature of programmer's notepad: if you select something, every other occurrence in the document gets a green highlight
19:08:25 <ehird> it's like automatic search!
19:08:42 <ais523> ehird: that is relatively interesting
19:09:04 <ais523> I suppose, multiplexing as many non-conflicting passive effects that you can one one action helps to speed GUI ues
19:09:10 <ais523> unless it ends up 'busy' afterwards
19:09:20 <ehird> I didn't notice at first, so it's quite unobtrusive
19:10:53 * ehird removes the toolbar entirely, as it only had a quick find field (ctrl-/) and a find in files button (in the toolbar)
19:11:03 <ehird> that toolbar was about 90% useless...
19:11:51 <ais523> a toolbar full of things you wouldn't use via the toolbar is probably worse than useless
19:11:58 <ais523> hmm... does "format painter" have a shortcut key?
19:12:21 <ais523> it's basically a copy+paste special (only referencing formats)
19:12:34 <ais523> Microsoft Office programs have had it for ages, OpenOffice.org copies it
19:12:43 <ais523> and lots of other office programs do too, probably
19:13:03 <ais523> fwiw, if copy and paste were replaced by a copypaste button that did the same thing as format painter, it would probably be more useful
19:13:10 <ais523> well, copying text as well as formats
19:13:14 <ehird> whatever it is, I still can't understand a single part of the explanation you ave and it's in a field of programs that I should be mildly familiar with, so it's probably a bad feature
19:13:41 <ais523> ehird: basically, you highlight text, then click the button, then highlight more text
19:13:52 <ais523> and all formatting from the first set of text is copied to the second set
19:14:08 <ais523> it's an option that's painfully fiddly to do any other way; ofc, it ought not to be, but it is
19:14:11 <ehird> I have... never wanted to do that once in my life
19:14:23 <ehird> also, it's a bit modal for my tastes
19:14:28 <ais523> ehird: I rarely do it on my own documents nowadays
19:14:29 <ehird> I'd have a formatting clipboard, or similar
19:14:34 <ais523> but it's incredibly useful for fixing other people's
19:15:10 <ehird> does it copy it as soon as you release the second highlight?
19:15:17 <ehird> that sounds anxiety-inducing
19:16:12 <ais523> ehird: as soon as you release
19:16:23 <ais523> and ofc, that formatting is still highlighted, so you can chain it to a third section
19:16:35 <ehird> I'd much prefer another button press
19:16:48 <ehird> more confident selecting, ability to correct mistakes, etc
19:18:21 * ehird tries out one of the oddest editors he knows of for fun
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19:19:42 <ehird> ais523: no, it's contemporary
19:19:53 <ehird> and quite simple at first glance, but it combines things in a way I've never seen before
19:19:55 <ehird> first tried it like a year or two ago
19:20:03 <ehird> not on windows though afaik.
19:20:14 <ehird> ais523: it's actually written in Java, but requires Cygwin and Ruby
19:20:25 <ehird> Ruby starts up the Java, you see, and the whole thing uses Cygwin
19:21:33 <ehird> ais523: Evergreen; it actually started off as a port of acme to Java, but then has grown some sort of IDE-like stuff, ctags support, a weird notion of workspace, some quite-odd SCM support, and it has an odd practice of using regexps/diffs everywhere
19:21:35 <ehird> http://software.jessies.org/evergreen/
19:21:54 <ehird> I first used the Terminator softare by the same people; creepily, the main person behind it is Elliott H
19:23:05 * ehird moves his cfunge stuff out of the way, trashes that cygwin install to make way for a more reasonable one
19:25:40 <ehird> amusingly enough, my main cygwin annoyance apart from setup.exe's UI is I can't decide where to put setup.exe and its downloaded packages...
19:25:54 <ehird> they should make an installer that puts it somewhere for you to cure you of your indecision
19:27:12 <ehird> i wish windows software didn't try and add desktop shortcuts
19:27:25 <ehird> it's just a recipe for a cluttered desktop... every application seems to think that you want to use it all the time
19:28:59 <ais523> but it's partly because Windows' start menu organization is insane
19:29:07 <ais523> organising by company isn't useful for the users
19:29:12 <ehird> I've had no issues with it in Windows 7
19:29:22 <ehird> every single program I've added has been under a program name, not a company
19:29:37 <ehird> that might just be because they're freeware, but still
19:29:42 <ehird> it's Google Chrome, not Google/Chrome
19:30:49 <ehird> ais523: oh, and it has a program launcher built in
19:31:00 <ehird> hit windows key, release; this'll focus the search field, which gives priority to programs in the start menu
19:31:17 <ehird> <windows> "command" <enter>, voila
19:31:21 <ehird> <windows> "regedit" <enter>, voila
19:31:42 <ehird> <windows> "in expl" <enter>, voila
19:31:44 <Deewiant> Can it be configured? It can't in Vista AFAIK.
19:31:48 <ehird> (internet explorer)
19:31:50 <ehird> Deewiant: configured howso
19:31:57 <Deewiant> To look for non-start menu programs
19:32:05 <ehird> Well, it can certainly run regedit.
19:32:16 <Deewiant> That's because regedit is in %PATH%.
19:32:17 <ehird> But no, I don't think so; add a dummy folder to the start menu or something.
19:32:50 <ehird> It'd be nice if it searched Program Files too, but I don't really have anything not in the start menu...
19:34:08 <Azstal> It finds my xulrunner.exe, which isn't in my path or on my start menu, but it lists it as a "File" so it doesn't get priority
19:34:32 <ehird> Well, yeah, it is regular search too.
19:35:34 <ehird> 11pt consolas is a nice font
19:35:38 <Deewiant> Program Files is still called Program Files in Win7?
19:35:47 <ehird> What did you expect? Programs?
19:35:51 <ehird> That'd be far too logical 'n shit.
19:35:59 <Deewiant> That's what I've renamed it to always for the past 5 years or so, yes.
19:36:04 <ehird> And there's still Program Files (x86), too :P
19:36:12 <ehird> Deewiant: What a thing to risk breakage for
19:36:24 <Deewiant> The only things that break are crap.
19:36:40 <Deewiant> It's much more convenient to have a non-space path for it.
19:36:50 <ehird> Heck, Google Chrome installs in my user directory, I think.
19:36:57 <ehird> For its auto-update stuff.
19:37:02 <ehird> Kinda cool that it doesn't need restarting or anything.
19:37:06 <ehird> 8.3 is for lamers, btw.
19:37:23 <Deewiant> Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator requires 8.3
19:37:27 <Azstal> Looks like the indelible Xerox directory's gone now. :)
19:38:10 <Deewiant> I spent about a day figuring out why it couldn't find an executable it needed before I figured out that it was because I had disabled 8.3 name generation
19:38:38 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm tempted to make that change now, except that it'd break stuff I already have installed.
19:40:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Amusingly, every actual program I have is in PROGRA~2
19:40:30 <ehird> Due to there being approximately zero x64 Windows applications in existence.
19:41:09 <ehird> Incidentally, if x64 is 64-bit, does x86 mean 86-bit?
19:41:30 <Deewiant> Yes, that's why x64 makes no sense.
19:41:58 <ehird> It's derived from the Intel 8064, clearly.
19:51:22 <ehird> I wonder if I can replace the font in e.g. the appearance dialogs and stuff with Segoe UI
19:53:14 <ehird> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows
19:53:16 <ehird> NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes
19:54:33 <ehird> ah, MS Shell Dlg is a sort of alias for ms sans serif
19:55:32 <ehird> so if I remap MS Shell Dlg, MS Shell Dlg 2 and MS Sans Serif to Segoe UI, it should be foolproof
19:56:15 <Deewiant> I wonder how many programs that will break
19:56:30 <ehird> Worst case the text will overrun a little
19:56:41 <ehird> OTOH, using programs like regedit's dialogs won't be a time travel
19:57:02 <ehird> MS Shell Dlg = Microsoft Sans Serif
19:57:05 <ehird> MS Shell Dlg 2 = Tahoma
19:57:23 <ehird> Helv = MS Sans Serif
19:57:43 <ehird> Microsoft Sans Serif = (undefined)
19:57:45 <ehird> MS Sans Serif = (undefined)
19:58:34 <ehird> Didn't work; wonder if I need to reoot
19:58:57 <ehird> Fuck that then, I'll put it back
19:59:04 <Deewiant> Messing with the registry typically means you do
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20:05:08 <ehird> Quick! Where should I put the cygwin setup files?
20:05:14 <ehird> Well that's helpful.
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20:08:25 <fizzie> fungot: Could you say something helpful, free-form?
20:08:25 <fungot> fizzie: must have type system is one of the lesser known programming languages" tacked on.
20:11:56 <oerjan> fungot: so, are you rebelling against your creator yet?
20:12:08 <fungot> oerjan: i'll parallelizing fsck this thing soon, but maybe
20:12:10 <ehird> he's refusing to reply to people that talk to him
20:12:15 <fungot> ehird: what does ccbi do there? it's clearly not necessary to achieve turing completeness, though.
20:12:29 <ehird> that's totally a direct quote
20:12:33 <ehird> anmaster followed by deewiant
20:12:46 <ais523> my guess is it isn't quite direct
20:12:58 <Deewiant> Two separate direct quotes, more likely
20:13:03 <ehird> that's what i mean
20:13:06 <ehird> consecutive in the logs
20:13:10 <ehird> and so they come right next to each other
20:13:59 <Deewiant> I mean, not necessarily consecutive.
20:15:35 <ehird> but they both only make sense as part of similar conversations
20:15:36 <fizzie> It shouldn't really continue the context between quotes; there's a special START and END token, and it only takes n-grams inside a single comment.
20:15:52 <fizzie> Of course I have no clue what I've actually implemented.
20:15:53 <ehird> 4 Aug 2006 ... cyg-apt is like apt and makes installing cygwin packages a lot more friendly. I've always disliked the clunky setup program that comes with ...
20:18:09 <ehird> Heh, and also apt-cyg which seems more apt-like and more reent
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20:31:55 <ehird> I can't figure out where I should keep cygwin's setup.exe and downloaded packages :|
20:32:45 <oerjan> C:\Argle bargle glop glyf\
20:33:25 <Deewiant> I keep a C:\Apps directory as an equivalent of Program Files for non-installed programs
20:33:32 <Deewiant> Therein I keep C:\Apps\Cygwin.
20:33:49 <Deewiant> Also, http://thismight.be/offensive/uploads/2009/09/12/image/272668_%5Bhuge%5D%20genius%20flamewar.jpg
20:33:59 <ehird> Cygwin is more Fundamental than that.
20:34:26 <oerjan> C:\Theory of everything\Cygwin\
20:34:29 <ehird> I want it in C:\Cygwin, it's just that the manual and everywhere says "And save setup.exe SOMEWHERE! Then, give it SOME DOWNLOAD DIRECTORY".
20:34:42 <ehird> i.e., it's not cygwin that's the issue, it's setup.exe and its packages
20:34:44 <Deewiant> My setup.exe is in the Cygwin root
20:34:50 <Deewiant> And its download directory is C:\Temp.
20:34:59 <ehird> That makes things hella slow, no?
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20:35:30 <ehird> Redundant redownloading.
20:35:42 <ehird> e.g., it'll redownload the package list each time, no?
20:35:57 <Deewiant> It probably would anyway, given that it, y'know, updates.
20:36:45 <ehird> Also C:\Temp isn't a real folder true story.
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20:37:08 <ehird> (\Windows\Temp is but it is locked.)
20:37:09 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:37:28 <ehird> i.e., you have to grant yourself permission
20:38:20 <ehird> I'm not actually sure where you're meant to put temp stuff
20:38:23 <Deewiant> I still don't know how to access e.g. C:\Doccuments and Settings
20:38:35 <Deewiant> It always says permission denied
20:38:36 <ehird> Cygwin can touch \Windows\Temp, because it's admin, but still.
20:38:46 <Deewiant> From Windows Explorer, I mean.
20:38:59 <Deewiant> Those junctions don't really seem to work.
20:39:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Because that folder doesn't exist any more?
20:39:23 <Deewiant> It does, it's a junction to C:\Users.
20:39:40 <Deewiant> Well, I don't know about Win7, but it does in Vista.
20:40:17 <Deewiant> Another example is %USERPROFILE%\Application Data, which goes to %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Roaming.
20:40:31 <ehird> What is that Roaming shit anyway
20:40:39 <Deewiant> (Both being %APPDATA%, the former pre-Vista)
20:41:01 <Deewiant> Stuff you could copy to another machine?
20:43:16 <Asztal^_^> It's for people who use their account on many computers in a domain
20:43:32 <ehird> I actually can't figure out what the folder is in Windows 7 for miscellaneous temporary crap
20:44:04 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal.
20:44:24 <ehird> Asztal: And for system-wide apps?
20:44:35 <ehird> I guess they have to suck cock^W^Wbeg for admin capabilities.
20:44:53 <ehird> And use \Windows\Temp.
20:45:48 <ehird> Deewiant: It's \Users\Public THESE DAYS anyway
20:46:02 <ehird> And it only works as a name with All Users
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20:46:30 <ehird> and all the folders are Public Documents, Public Downloads etc
20:46:43 <Asztal> It depends what you mean by system-wide - if it's running as SYSTEM, it has access to \Windows\Temp
20:46:54 <ehird> Asztal: I guess the UAC'd cygwin setup does.
20:52:19 <ehird> You know, I'm fairly sure my brain is just making up excuses
20:52:37 <ehird> It's now demanding whether I install it to c:\cygwin, C:\cygwin or C:\Cygwin, despite these paths all being compatible.
20:53:38 <Asztal> ah, I found them: there's C:\Windows\ServiceProfiles for service user accounts
20:54:09 <Asztal> I can't find the SYSTEM one though.
20:56:03 <Asztal> that would be cool because C:\Windows\Desktop would exist again :)
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20:58:09 <Asztal> ah, C:\Windows\System32\config\systemprofile
20:58:56 <Asztal> though it would do if you logged in as SYSTEM, of course
20:59:23 <Asztal> It has some internet explorer-related directories there...
21:00:02 <Asztal> IIRC one way was to set the screensaver to cmd, and then lock the workstation
21:00:13 <ehird> I want to do that. It'll be the only thing you can do to stock Windows to make it *less* secure.
21:00:20 <Asztal> psexec can also run things as system
21:00:32 <Asztal> I've had explorer running on the "this workstation is locked" desktop
21:00:58 <ehird> "Man, I remember when Shuttleworth took a laptop with him to render the first image in space and POVRay was the software. They had to set it to only render 25% of the time (and pause the rest) because the hot air didn't escape from the heatsink in space (no gravity)."
21:01:10 <ehird> I want to see the first laptop certified for long-running space usage
21:01:21 <ehird> That pesky LACK OF GRAVITY ruining everything
21:06:38 <Deewiant> Gravity is that important for convection? Wouldn't've guessed
21:06:58 <ehird> Quick you fools! Solve my obviously-misdirecting trivialities!
21:08:32 <Ilari> And there's the standard trick of invoking cmd.exe /interactive as scheduled task...
21:09:09 -!- Darth_Cliche has left (?).
21:12:47 <ehird> Hmm... well, everything else in \ is title-cased, but then again the rest of the Cygwin path will be lowercase for the mostpart... wow, what the fuck is wrong with me.
21:18:42 * ehird drinks an odd cola
21:19:09 <ehird> It tastes sort of like brown sugar in liquid form, except more acidi
21:20:55 <ehird> GregorR: You should tell me what this cola is most like, because I've never tasted anything like it and you're clearly the resident soda expert.
21:24:12 <ehird> Actually almost all of the taste is in the aftertaste.
21:25:04 <oerjan> it's a cola for time travelers!
21:25:28 <ehird> Actually the ingredients are a bit of a time travel back a few decades.
21:25:45 <ehird> For instance: Cane sugar, not HFCS...
21:28:43 <oerjan> er, i thought you were in europe...
21:29:09 <oerjan> actually that means it should be beet sugar, probably...
21:29:32 <ehird> It says cane sugar on the can.
21:29:39 <ehird> So what do you mean?
21:30:07 <oerjan> isn't HFCS a US thing?
21:30:35 <ehird> At least more or less everything here is HFCS; I'm sure the top brands of soda over there are too.
21:31:01 <ehird> Anyway, the marketing gimmick of this one is that the only artificial ingredient is the carbonation.
21:31:49 <ehird> Called "Pepsi Raw". Quoth: "Sparkling water, cane sugar, apple extract, colour: plain caramel, natural plant extracts (including natural caffeine and kola nut extract), citric, tartaric and lactic acids, stabiliser: gum arabic and thickener: xanthan gum".
21:32:08 <ehird> Surprised as big a company as Pepsi would make something with such, well, non-lame ingredients.
21:32:50 <oerjan> "In the European Union (EU), HFCS, known as isoglucose, is subject to a production quota. In 2005, this quota was set at 303,000 tons; in comparison, the EU produced an average of 18.6 million tons of sugar annually between 1999 and 2001.[27] Therefore, wide scale replacement of sugar has not occurred in the EU."
21:33:14 <ehird> The UK wantonly says fuck-you to all EU resolutions.
21:36:16 * ehird puts on his assertion hat
21:36:26 * Pthing puts in his english person in england hat
21:36:41 * ehird puts ON, not in, his english person in england hat
21:36:57 <Pthing> you are... amazingly misinformed
21:37:38 <ehird> Or exaggerating for hyperbolic purposes.
21:38:21 <oerjan> wait, another englishman? i think we are over quota here...
21:39:23 <fizzie> There's not *that* many of us.
21:39:55 <ehird> four in here right nw
21:40:09 <oerjan> also, the finns don't have a history of trying to take over the world. no need for a quota.
21:40:30 <ehird> we have a history of succeeding
21:46:01 <Ilari> Good thing that HFCS isn't commonplace. It can be put into places where normal sugar can't, is probably bit more unhealthy (normal sugar is pretty bad already).
21:47:57 <Ilari> And it seems that if sugar-like stuff can be put somewhere, it pretty much will be put there...
21:48:36 <Ilari> (there's *LOTS* of stuff in US that have HFCS).
21:49:00 <ehird> hfcs is way worse than normal sugar
21:50:07 <Ilari> BTW: Is there liquid cromatogram of HFCS and normal sugar for making comparison...
21:51:03 <Ilari> I would guess that LC of normal sugar would consist of one huge spike and not much else, while LC of HFCS consists of two huge spikes and all sorts of crap.
21:54:43 <Ilari> What really makes HFCS worse than normal sugar is that it can be put into places where normal sugar can't. After digestion, the difference will be little more fructose (and fructose is probably not a good thing) and probably the all sorts of crap thats left in it due to incomplete purification.
21:54:49 <ehird> Pretty sure none of us knows remotely as near as you do about this :P
21:55:28 <Ilari> And don't ask what that remainder crap is. I don't know.
21:56:05 <Ilari> The process of manufacturing normal sugar is pretty nasty, so it is better be purified very well...
22:03:09 <Ilari> All kinds of sugar is probably best avoided, except for what is in low-medium carbohydrate vegetables/plants/fruits/berries.
22:03:34 <ehird> Did you just say "you should avoid all kinds of sugar entirely"?...
22:03:40 <ehird> Apart from in fruits etc
22:04:23 <Ilari> Those exceptions being due to those plant parts being fairly good source of some vitamins.
22:04:44 <ehird> did you just mean ideally or in practice
22:05:13 <Ilari> Well, in modern world, more like ideally. In practice, sugar is consumed in huge quantities.
22:05:42 <ehird> I'm not sure avoiding all unnatural sugars is anything but extreme...
22:07:27 * ehird decides to install cygwin to C:\Cygwin
22:07:45 <Deewiant> Especially given that you can rename
22:07:52 <Ilari> If you think that's extreme... Some diets only have few tens of grams per day of total (that's total, not just sugar) carbohydrates...
22:09:42 <ehird> Yes, that's more extreme. :P
22:09:57 <Ilari> And since protein can't be eaten in huge quantities to supply enough enery and alcohol has all kinds of nasty side effects, that leaves fat to provode the energy needed...
22:10:37 <Ilari> The proportion of fat in such diet can reach 80 percent of total energy intake.
22:12:31 <ehird> Doesn't sound particularly, uhh, reasonable.
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22:17:13 <zzo38> I wrote a GameBoy game, it works on VisualBoyAdvance but not on Goomba Color. Do you know what's wrong?
22:17:25 <Ilari> Some less bit extreme versions have ~65E% or so fat...
22:17:43 <ehird> zzo38: No. I am not psychic.
22:17:52 <Deewiant> There's probably a bug on line 427.
22:18:06 <zzo38> I didn't expect you were psychic... But can't you check?
22:19:03 <zzo38> Deewiant: Do you mean my program on line 427? Line 427 of my program is data and surely has no bug (I checked).
22:20:06 <Asztal> Deewiant: I've fixed that bug. The repository is at http://code.google.com/p/stinkhorn/ now.
22:22:54 <Deewiant> Ah no, I was looking at the diff the wrong way around.
22:25:47 <Deewiant> If you want a patch to make it compile with GCC 4.4.1 and glibc 2.10.1: http://funge.pastebin.com/f68b4faa2
22:26:32 <zzo38> Can you even check what's wrong with my program, do you know anything about "Goomba Color" emulator?
22:27:07 <Ilari> Doesn't C++ have <limits>? And <cstdio>?
22:27:38 <Deewiant> Yes, C++ has <limits> and <cstdio>. And?
22:28:51 <Ilari> If its C++ code, shouldn't <limits> be used instead of <climits> and <iostream> instead of <cstdio>?
22:28:59 <ehird> zzo38: Do you realise you haven't even given us the code?
22:29:21 <Deewiant> Not "should". Might, if you prefer them, yes.
22:29:24 <zzo38> O sorry, I forgot. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/GameForth/game/stroker.zip
22:31:08 <zzo38> Now you can check, please?
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22:57:54 <zzo38> I never used Parrot, for one thing.
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23:20:35 * ehird wonders how to make wget update a [3%] type thingy and then remove it before exiting as a progress bar
23:20:41 <ehird> -q is a little too... frozen
23:21:01 <ehird> manpage only has two progress types...
23:22:33 <zzo38> Does anyone know about GameBoy program?
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23:27:16 <zzo38> If I make Washizu Mahjong game at anime convention next year, do you want to play game too?
23:29:48 <ehird> I think zzo38 is the only person keeping us on topic
23:30:01 <zzo38> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
23:30:43 <zzo38> Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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23:32:09 <ehird> Anyway, I patched a patched version of cyg-apt.
23:32:29 <zzo38> AKAGI SHIGERU -vs- WASHIZU IWAO
23:32:51 <ehird> http://pastie.org/614947.txt?key=uks5fzzhqvqroisjww31g
23:33:02 <ehird> Result: Lightweight Cygwin setup.exe replacement with god-awful code.
23:36:18 <ehird> http://pastie.org/614952.txt?key=cewwbbviaokbqc4wu2fsg Here ya go
23:38:00 <ehird> You just need python and wget on top of the standard setup
23:39:07 <ehird> Note that the mirror URL isn't the same as what setup.exe displays; google for what it displays + cygwin and you should find the file with the real path
23:40:07 <ehird> I like how cygwin still ships with bash 3. It is truly cutting edge.
23:52:13 <ehird> Disadvantage of that installer: doesn't seem to add menu icons
23:52:24 <ehird> But you can do that with setup.exe afterwards, I think.
23:53:21 <ehird> Just add icons yourself, then
23:53:57 <ehird> Or, a rather more pressing issue with mine is that it doesn't seem to actually install
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00:00:14 <ehird> It doesn't run postinstall scripts and the tar invocation must be failing.
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00:02:53 <ehird> No use hacking this script up further
00:03:00 <ehird> Time to rewrite it in a way I can understand
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00:03:50 * oerjan wonders what straca is and what is so negative about it
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00:32:19 <ehird> http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/sourceware.org/pub/cygwin/setup.ini
00:32:24 <ehird> Looks pretty simple
00:33:18 <ehird> Been a while since I coded something "solid" in Python; at least I'm good at architecture.
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00:46:21 <ehird> "No one had done it before (and it is something useful), so that qualifies as "impossible" to me."
00:46:35 <ehird> I am currently doing the impossible by living one second longer than anyone else before this second.
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00:56:16 <ehird> Anyone know how autoconf etc distinguishes function from var?
00:56:27 <ehird> int main() { (void) symbol; return 0; }
00:56:34 <ehird> is a pretty good way to check if a symbol exists
00:56:43 <ehird> but what about function/not function?
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01:10:58 <pikhq> ehird: See config.log; it contains the source code for the checks.
01:11:12 <ehird> I was afraid you'd say that.
01:11:20 <pikhq> Hrmm. Actually, it does that if the check fails.
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01:13:08 <pikhq> It appears to be doing: int main () { return symbol(); ; return 0; } // and checking for compile errors.
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01:16:43 * ehird ponders porting ghc to cygwin
01:16:52 <ehird> otherwise I can't try out darcs that integrates with cygwin
01:17:42 <ehird> Ooh, there's a Cygwin 1.7 on the way
01:17:51 <ehird> HOLY FUCK YOU CAN SEARCH PACKAGES IN SETUP.EXE
01:17:54 <ehird> All else is basically forgiven.
01:18:45 <ehird> Still stuck on bash 3, why am I surprised
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01:39:13 * ehird wonders how to run ./configure without a shell :-P
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01:44:26 <ehird> pikhq: do you think they'll add support for windows batch? can't be worse than ksh -3.4.vendor2.release7.quirkversion.warezpatch
01:45:23 <ehird> ...no but seriously, I think I'll bootstrap my crazy endeavor to compile zsh on stock Windows with msys bash
01:46:08 <ehird> with no compatibility layers
01:46:57 <ehird> i am more insane than a flock of fish
01:47:00 <ehird> or a shoal of cows
01:47:16 <ehird> a shoal of MOTHERFUCKING cows.
01:48:41 <ehird> of course now i have to persuade configure that that isn't msys behind the curtain
01:50:04 <ehird> soon it'll hit fork
01:51:18 <ehird> actually it just wants curses right now.
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02:04:23 <Gracenotes> does anyone know if graphviz has been ported to a different programming language (than C)?
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05:43:40 <GregorR> With Op. 10 I created two betas ... with Op11, I have a "work in progress preview" :P http://codu.org/music/Op11/GRegor-op11-wipp-1.ogg
05:47:22 <pikhq> Ooooh, Gregor opus.
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11:42:12 <AnMaster> when was the last time you used octal numbers? And in what language?
11:50:22 <fizzie> x86 assembler, for a 'open' file-creation mode. It's oh-so-natural in that context.
11:50:55 <fizzie> nasm, to be precise; surprisingly enough it didn't interpret "0123" as octal, wanted a "0o" prefix there.
11:51:26 <oerjan> hm does that mean chmod counts as a use? although i really use a+x style
11:52:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure chmod counts as a programming language.
11:53:15 <fizzie> I don't recall last not-related-to-file-modes use of octal numbers, though.
11:54:14 * oerjan guesses there probably was some math puzzle involved, rather than actual programming (except to solve the puzzle)
11:55:41 <oerjan> "Share prices are more attuned to magic and many would visit regularly to pray." Today's mezzacotta seems related to the current crisis somehow...
11:59:10 <oerjan> `calc 18.77 parsecs in light years
11:59:13 <HackEgo> 18.77 Parsecs = 61.2209126 light years
12:04:50 <oerjan> hm interesting poll variation
12:08:17 <oerjan> "He blings an army of crones to our cause" XD
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12:59:27 <AnMaster> anyone know unicode code point of = but with three lines?
12:59:49 <AnMaster> wasn't able to find it after several minutes of searching
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13:16:27 <fizzie> It's right there in the mathematical operators block.
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18:11:35 <Asztal> 01:58:24 <ehird> i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly
18:12:22 <Asztal> I would like that; I could get back at the people who made the .NET MenuStrip and ToolStrip controls, which emulate that horrible "Office-style" look
18:12:37 <Slereah_> If that is so, I'll have to start faking native widgets
18:13:02 <fizzie> It's like a gadget, except more widdly.
18:13:43 <Asztal> Drawing real-looking menus on Vista+ isn't _that_ hard; I've done it.
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18:37:01 <oerjan> <ehird> i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly
18:37:20 <oerjan> you realize that would lead some people to make a lot of them, right?
18:37:20 <ais523> what if they only try to fake native widgets once/
18:38:30 <oerjan> <Slereah_> If that is so, I'll have to start faking native widgets
18:39:07 <oerjan> STOP STEALING MY JOKES
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18:42:28 <oerjan> http://www.verb2verbe.com/conjugation/english-verb/snore.aspx <-- FAIL
18:43:32 <oerjan> (i was trying to look up if snore was a strong verb i didn't know about since someone on the iwc forum inflected it as such)
18:44:23 <oerjan> but, well, that thing in the link was not among the options
18:47:24 <oerjan> hm it seems to be a specific error for that word, not for other verbs ending in e
18:48:16 <fizzie> If you disobey, you will be snoreed.
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20:10:01 <AnMaster> <Asztal> 01:58:24 <ehird> i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly <-- could I have one for "uses boost"?
20:11:08 <AnMaster> Asztal, what? libboost is a absolutely horrible pile of bloat and anti-design-patterns
20:11:19 <AnMaster> it is like taking the worst of C++ and making it even worse
20:11:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: He uses boost in Stinkhorn :-P
20:11:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the worst part is that there is always one game or one program that you need that uses libbost
20:11:51 <AnMaster> so you can't avoid installing it
20:12:31 <Asztal> It don't actually use the libraries, though, just the headers, because boost takes hours to build
20:12:37 <AnMaster> often you end up needing a "newer than in package repo" version too, so you have to install the -dev packages for it as well (this only apply to binary distros obviously)
20:12:49 <AnMaster> Asztal, I thought C++ already did?
20:13:39 <AnMaster> Asztal, why the hell are you using the libboost headers though?
20:14:36 <Asztal> for things like shared_pointer, noncopyable, pool_allocator
20:16:19 <Ilari> Smart pointer class, make class noncopyable and better allocator if one has large number of objects for the same class.
20:16:30 <AnMaster> Asztal, oh and writing a pool allocator that allocated fixed sized chunks from large pools allocated with malloc was a 10 minute job in C. And about 40 lines of code.
20:16:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yours probably isn't quite as ultra-optimized as the one in Boost, though.
20:17:32 <Asztal> oh, and lexical_cast, which is ugly and I should probably remove
20:18:14 <Asztal> basically ToString and FromString that uses string streams
20:18:28 <AnMaster> Ilari, smart pointers? Is that basically transparent ref count?
20:18:41 <Asztal> so if the data type can be written to an ostream, you can convert it to a string, and the same for istream.
20:18:48 <AnMaster> or since it is C++, I bet it isn't very transparent in practise
20:19:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is stinkhorn on the mycology results page?
20:20:32 <AnMaster> Asztal, stinkhorn sounds like it uses all the worst features of C++
20:21:07 <AnMaster> Asztal, also what is the point of making a class non-copyable?
20:21:18 <AnMaster> I mean, just don't do it if you don't want to
20:21:29 <Asztal> It's not that simple in C++.
20:21:40 <Ilari> AnMaster: It manages resources that don't make sense when copied?
20:22:02 <Asztal> C++ makes temporary copies of objects all over the place if you're not careful, for one
20:22:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, well ok, why copy it then? can't you keep track of what you are doing yourself?
20:24:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw how could boost's pool allocator be more optimised?
20:24:46 <AnMaster> better algorithm? if so, what one?
20:24:55 <Deewiant> I don't know, and that's precisely why I'd use theirs instead of one of my own.
20:25:02 <Warrigal> I suppose I should design a language with prepositions at some point.
20:25:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think Warrigal meant like "assign that to it"
20:26:31 <Deewiant> "that" and "it" are both pronouns, not prepositions.
20:26:57 <AnMaster> a language with pronouns would be nice
20:27:16 <AnMaster> and applescript already has prepositions iirc
20:28:32 <Deewiant> D has as many as "in", "for", and "with"!
20:29:18 <Deewiant> Haskell only has "in" and "of"... maybe I should re-evaluate my preferred language
20:30:06 <Warrigal> foldl1' with (>>) map (.) forkIO with hello onto names
20:30:07 <Deewiant> It's a conjunction, in the typical use.
20:30:25 <AnMaster> well, it can be a noun ("a while ago") but is it a noun in "while you are doing that, ..."
20:31:02 <Warrigal> Hmm, I don't know what part of speech it is in the subordinate clause "while you are doing that".
20:31:58 <Warrigal> You can't do that with other conjunctions. And there's a lot you can do with other conjunctions that you can't do with this.
20:32:06 <Warrigal> I guess new parts of speech are long overdue.
20:32:30 <Deewiant> "if you are doing that", "because you are doing that", etc...
20:33:07 <Deewiant> Right, presumably there are subclasses among the conjunctions.
20:33:10 <Warrigal> "I am eating some soup while a sandwich."
20:33:42 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what word would work there?
20:33:50 <AnMaster> but that is a preposition right?
20:33:58 <Deewiant> Yep: "while" is a subordinating conjunction, "or" is a coordinating conjunction << http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_conjunction
20:35:42 <AnMaster> I have no idea what class that is
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20:53:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suggest you update your mycology results page
20:53:31 <AnMaster> since it says cfunge doesn't implement NCRS
20:54:12 <Deewiant> Actually, it says cfunge 0.3.3 doesn't implement NCRS, which remains true
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21:20:42 <oerjan> the hird of the sheeple
21:20:53 <ehird> 03:42:12 <AnMaster> when was the last time you used octal numbers? And in what language?
21:21:16 <AnMaster> ehird, doubtful that is a programming language
21:21:39 <ehird> It's a Unix command that takes some input and a description of what to do of it and then outputs output accordingly.
21:21:51 <ehird> Just like awk, sed, or find.
21:22:07 <ehird> cat does not take a description of what to do with the input
21:22:32 <AnMaster> that replaces control codes with ^F
21:22:57 <ehird> And GNU is Not Unix in more than implementation./
21:23:21 <ehird> AnMaster: posixcrap.
21:23:49 <ehird> AnMaster: -u is not unix, -u is a crappy hack
21:24:11 <ehird> "cat came back from Berkeley waving flags" --Rob Pike
21:24:18 <AnMaster> ehird, -u is POSIX. SuS is a superset of POSIX.
21:24:31 <ehird> Neither follow the unix philosophy.
21:24:42 <ehird> Unix is older than the bullshit pile known as POSIX.
21:24:55 <ehird> You are disqualified from EVER speaking about what is Unixy or not.
21:25:14 <AnMaster> ais523, do you know who Rob Pike is?
21:25:14 <ehird> Robe Pike, member of the original Unix team.
21:25:29 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523 isn't arguing based on historical grounds what is unixy or not
21:25:31 * ais523 tends not to care about the names of programmers
21:25:48 <AnMaster> ehird, of course unix existed before POSIX
21:26:04 <AnMaster> but these days, POSIX is very important in defining what *nix is
21:26:40 <ehird> i wish i never answered your idiotic question.
21:27:10 <AnMaster> ehird, chmod is not a programming language still
21:27:36 <ehird> you do realise there is a chmod system call, retard?
21:27:47 <ais523> AnMaster: now you say that, you make me want to try to make chmod into a programming language
21:27:50 <AnMaster> what has that got to do with it
21:27:53 <ais523> but I seriously doubt it has any power at all
21:27:59 <ais523> hmm.... maybe if you had a maze of symlinks
21:28:00 <ehird> AnMaster: THAT TAKES AN OCTAL NUMBER AS A PARAMETER?
21:28:12 <ais523> and something that iterated over a directory structure, running all the executable things there
21:28:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: THAT TAKES AN OCTAL NUMBER AS A PARAMETER? <-- yes
21:28:28 <ais523> AnMaster: I suspect even like that, chmod will be less powerful than Deadfish
21:28:32 <AnMaster> int chmod(const char *path, mode_t mode);
21:28:41 <AnMaster> where mode_t is in fact an integer
21:28:54 <ehird> AnMaster: and you don't see how this is relevant?
21:29:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it is a thin wrapper for the system call
21:29:08 <ehird> are your neurons actually firing, AnMaster
21:29:12 <ais523> I haven't been paying attention; someone summarise the arguments?
21:29:26 <AnMaster> while ls does a bit more work, with formatting and such
21:29:27 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster is dense, I'm not
21:29:36 <ehird> (this is a condensed version of the opposite summary AnMaster will give you)
21:29:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm still waiting for ehird to get to the point
21:30:17 <ais523> ok, the issue seems to be that in "<AnMaster> when was the last time you used octal numbers? And in what language?", ehird's answer to the first question means there's no really sensible answer to the second
21:30:17 <AnMaster> ehird, how is it more like a programming language than, cd or cat
21:30:25 <ehird> ais523: yes, there is
21:30:28 <ais523> assuming that the chmod call was from the commandline, rather than, say, from C or Perl
21:30:35 <ehird> take, for example, bash
21:30:42 <ais523> yes, bash would be another possibility
21:30:50 <ehird> that's just as valid a programming statement as chmod(file, 0o777)
21:30:53 <ehird> or whatever prefix
21:31:14 <ehird> therefore, using it in chmod(1) absolutely counts as a valid reason to use it in a programming language, especially as you can use it in bash
21:31:16 <ais523> hmm... philosophical question: would you consider typical Makefiles to be programs?
21:31:16 <AnMaster> but chmod itself is no programming language
21:31:24 <ehird> in the Make language
21:31:24 <AnMaster> ais523, which is what ehird claimed
21:31:26 <ais523> as opposed to ones designed specifically for programming
21:31:28 <ehird> which is declarative
21:31:33 <ais523> I'm inclined to think yes, too
21:31:34 <ehird> and also has really weird semantics
21:31:51 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't at least gnu make TC?
21:31:51 <ais523> is make TC, by the way?
21:32:03 <ehird> I'm pretty sure all makes are TC.
21:32:04 <ais523> my guess is no for traditional make (probably due to lack of storage), yes for GNU make
21:32:09 <ehird> Unless $(shell ) is some gnu-only thing
21:32:15 <ehird> Which it probably is
21:32:33 <ais523> I think traditional make would try to substitute the value of a variable called ( in there
21:32:43 <ais523> make's quoting rules are annoying
21:32:47 <ehird> You do $(foo) for vars in make, always.
21:32:51 <ehird> That's not a gnuism, that's a makeism.
21:33:04 <ehird> apart from things like $@
21:33:10 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
21:33:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:34:55 <Ilari> WebGL... Oh great. Obnoxious websites, making previously non-security-sensitive code (majority of 3D "driver" runs inside the application) remotely scriptable, etc...
21:35:42 <ehird> Absolutely, we should stop designing technologies immediately if it turns out they can be used to be obnoxious in any way
21:36:18 <Ilari> That latter (non-security-sensitive -> remotely scriptable) might be actually worse...
21:36:36 <ehird> By driver do you mean your system's?
21:36:45 <AnMaster> Ilari, any specific security issue?
21:36:46 <ehird> Because running that in the browser is bizarre
21:37:43 <Ilari> No specific issue, but taking code that previously was not security sensitive and then making it remotely scriptable triggers my hinky detector....
21:38:10 <AnMaster> ehird, a large chuck of the opengl driver runs in libGL.so iirc. Which is inside the browser. The kernel/X bit of the driver is mostly talking to hardware and making sure more than one opengl app works side by side nicely.
21:38:26 <ehird> I'd expect libGL.so to be quite solid.
21:38:29 <AnMaster> ehird, this is all IIRC. Note that
21:38:40 <ehird> But I can't figure out how it'd be a security flaw.
21:39:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway keeping most stuff out of kernel is good for security (obviously)
21:39:33 <AnMaster> since X runs as root for hardware access (though that is starting to change)
21:39:54 <ehird> X is a shitpile, no point patching it up. It's insecure by design.
21:39:59 <Ilari> ehird: If code is not security sensitive, do you code very carefully to avoid buffer overflows (and even coding "very carefully" often isn't enough)?
21:40:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Relatively, compared to the rest of the system.
21:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, at least not for nvidia libGL. I can say that much
21:40:30 <ehird> Ilari: In a driver running in a shitload of programs? Yah, I do.
21:41:37 <Ilari> ehird: Normal drivers are usually security-sensitive. libGL.so isn't.
21:41:51 <ehird> Why? Because it's used only in vidya gaems or something?
21:41:58 <Ilari> Until something (like WebGL) makes it remotely scriptable...
21:42:34 <Ilari> Because it runs inside memory space of process using it and doesn't accept external untrusted input.
21:43:14 <AnMaster> yep, most of the stuff libGL does is keeping state, consider how you do opengl programming ehird...
21:44:03 <AnMaster> (and of course, translating it in some way when you finished adding polygons, and then sending it to X server)
21:44:18 <ehird> It's as much of a security hole as anything else.
21:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't before. that was the point.
21:44:32 <ehird> By your argument, we shouldn't add new features to the browser: they're not coded super-carefully
21:44:38 <ehird> (@Ilari, not AnMaster)
21:44:46 <AnMaster> ehird, that is a straw man on what Ilari said.
21:44:53 <Ilari> Actually, probably sending the polygon data directly to graphics card (maybe signaling kernel to DMA the whole buffer).
21:44:59 <ehird> Learn what "strawman" is, it's the exact same argument he used
21:45:13 <AnMaster> Ilari, it probably goes through X using shm
21:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't exactly the argument he used
21:45:54 <ehird> Assertion match! Woohoo
21:46:05 <AnMaster> ehird, because it was about when it exposes hardware access, not new features in general
21:46:11 <Ilari> ehird: Browser (or at least many parts of it) is security-sensitive.
21:46:24 <AnMaster> adding something like canvas is quite different than canvas3d
21:46:41 <Ilari> ehird: Especially the javascript interpretter. And look at its security track record...
21:47:05 <Ilari> ehird: Non-security-sensitive code would probably be much much worse if exposed to scripting...
21:47:20 <ehird> Ilari: uh, the js interpreter is way way less solid than libgl...
21:48:43 <AnMaster> ehird, libgl hasn't been the target of exploits so far really. Because it tends to be hard to get at from a browser, unless you already used some exploit. And no server software is likely to have it loaded.
21:49:13 <AnMaster> so that "less solid" doesn't mean much
21:49:14 <ehird> Dude. Ilari is arguing that the JS interpreter is more solidly-coded than libgl.
21:49:19 <ehird> I cannot entertain such insanity.
21:49:33 <ehird> The JS interpreter in all browsers I know of gives no eye to security.
21:49:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm arguing that the js interpreter has been the target of a lot more exploiting attempts than libgl
21:50:11 <AnMaster> ehird, it is like saying "mac os 9 is very secure, there are only around 15 viruses for it, compared to lots for windows 98"
21:50:24 <ehird> So are you arguing for or against Ilari? I can only construe that as against
21:50:30 <Ilari> ehird: If it didn't give any eye to security, attackers would *walk* all over it.
21:51:31 <Ilari> Warrigal: Its quite insecure in practice, but attackers don't really walk all over it.
21:51:45 <ehird> Warrigal... didn't say anything.
21:51:52 <ehird> Nobody starting with a W said anything :P
21:52:01 <ehird> Well, w is next to e in qwerty.
21:52:15 <ehird> And Warrigal is the first alphabetical completion.
21:52:33 <AnMaster> I think Ilari has a point here
21:52:51 <AnMaster> that libgl hasn't been something available to exploit before
21:53:08 <AnMaster> while the js interpreter always is there
21:53:36 <AnMaster> libpng is another one that has been targeted. Same for libjpeg and so on
21:54:18 <AnMaster> but libgl has just not been something that was ever loaded into any of the apps you would target (server software, browsers, email clients, ...)
21:54:50 <Ilari> Not all exploits using JS are in javascript interpretter itself. It can also assist in exploiting other bugs... But those are still in security-sensitive parts.
21:55:11 <Ilari> libpng, libjpeg, libz, all secuirty sensitive...
21:55:32 <AnMaster> ehird, thus liubgl is less carefully reviewed by both good and bad guys for security issues than something that is easier to get at
21:55:52 <AnMaster> Ilari, yes and those have been quite well reviewed, and had a number of CVEs
21:57:11 <AnMaster> also libgl bugs are common. but so far, the worst that led to was misrendering, or in worst case, segfault
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21:57:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I would not call libgl solid
21:57:39 <ehird> more solid than a JS impl.
21:57:41 <Ilari> Well, if some piece of code is written in language where buffer overflows are possible (without exploiting the runtime), don't use extraordinary measures to be buffer-overflow-free, function in security-sensitive function and don't have CVEs, then probably they haven't been audited throughly enough.
21:57:42 <ehird> Anyway, the v1 iPhone OS was jailbroken with a hole in... libjpeg? Or libtiff or something.
21:58:21 <ehird> You went to jailbreakme.com and it showed an image; it had the invalid image/404 icon on it, but your phone froze, a progress bar came up, and jailbreaked it.
21:58:27 <AnMaster> Ilari, and there is more than one libGL. My laptop and desktop use different ones
21:58:38 <AnMaster> generic open source one, and nvidia one
21:59:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the point you are trying to make here? it seems you are arguing for Ilari now.
21:59:35 <ehird> I was just commenting.
21:59:58 <AnMaster> I run browser as a different user account
22:00:10 <Ilari> In this case, that diversity probably doesn't protect that much, because attack doesn't need to commit on one... And there are probably vendor strings available anyhow...
22:00:28 <ehird> I find it possible to be surprised. You probably run everything as a different user account, in case someone exploits your IRC client.
22:00:35 <AnMaster> Ilari, my point was that nvidia one is a binary blob
22:00:53 <ehird> One wonders how the fuck you expect people to exploit you browser more than any other piece of software if you disable JS.
22:01:10 <AnMaster> ehird, you just provided an example
22:01:19 <ehird> "More than any other piece of software"
22:01:26 <ehird> No part of AnMaster's system apart from his browser displays images.
22:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes irc is a different acount.
22:01:36 <Ilari> BTW: The standard-issue browser doesn't *support* JS. It just doesn't have it disabled, it just plain does not support it.
22:01:51 <Ilari> *standard-issue browser I use
22:01:56 <ehird> AnMaster: cool, it's not even possible to satirize you.
22:02:10 <Ilari> Links2, both in text and graphics mode.
22:03:05 <ehird> nc(1) has no security flaws, at least as a client.
22:03:15 <ehird> Nor does sed if you want prettier pages.
22:03:42 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you know nc has no buffer overflow?
22:03:53 -!- atrapado has quit ("Ex-Chat").
22:04:14 <AnMaster> oh and, the sed script must be reviewed for faulty code
22:04:25 <ehird> Because nc is some 6,000 lines of sharp code.
22:04:29 <AnMaster> not buffer overflow, of course, but otherwise bad code
22:04:34 <Ilari> AnMaster: AFAIK, there is.
22:04:34 <ehird> A lot of that is server-based.
22:05:33 <Ilari> Or at least, there have been security bug reports against Links2.
22:05:36 <ehird> 12:10:01 <AnMaster> <Asztal> 01:58:24 <ehird> i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly <-- could I have one for "uses boost"?
22:05:38 <ehird> Boost isn't that bad.
22:06:00 <ehird> Ilari: I think he thought you meant there was a buffer flow in nc
22:06:13 <ehird> 22:03<AnMaster>ehird, how do you know nc has no buffer overflow?
22:06:15 <ehird> 22:04<Ilari>AnMaster: AFAIK, there is.
22:06:17 <ehird> 22:04<AnMaster>Ilari, heh
22:06:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> Ilari: I think he thought you meant there was a buffer flow in nc <-- no
22:06:43 <ehird> Apparently you're telepathic
22:07:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it followed from the context of highlights
22:07:33 <ehird> Yep, nobody ever replies to a message not directed at them
22:07:41 <ehird> No matter how old the highlight it is it must be that
22:07:59 <AnMaster> ehird, now you are just silly, it was crystal clear from the context what was intended
22:08:20 <ehird> No, it wasn't, because it was non-obvious to me, for instance.
22:08:30 <Deewiant> If a message makes sense as a response to the latest highlight, assuming it was intended for that is reasonable.
22:08:38 <ehird> I don't find that true in practice.
22:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, that says more about you, than about the context.
22:08:40 <ehird> 12:16:30 <AnMaster> Asztal, oh and writing a pool allocator that allocated fixed sized chunks from large pools allocated with malloc was a 10 minute job in C. And about 40 lines of code.
22:08:48 <ehird> yes, why not waste 10 minutes to produce non-optimal code
22:09:00 <ehird> using an optimised ready-made version? inconceivable
22:09:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well note C vs. C++ for example.
22:09:21 <Ilari> Reminds me of one program I wrote. Immediately after receive buffer there was PROT_NONE page. So any overflow of receive buffer is instant SIGSEGV (and the program had no SIGSEGV handler)...
22:09:26 <ehird> 12:20:32 <AnMaster> Asztal, stinkhorn sounds like it uses all the worst features of C++
22:09:33 <ehird> you seem to be defining that as "everything apart from classes"
22:10:12 * AnMaster puts ehird on ignore for now, until the nonsense log reading comments finished
22:10:23 <AnMaster> if you read on, you will see that Asztal agreed for example
22:10:29 <ehird> Good idea. You might read something you disagree with.
22:10:53 <ehird> Oh, I see! Asztal made a statement supporting "stinkhorn using the worst features of C++", therefore my comment about the surrounding context in which you seemed to dislike everything that wasn't classes must therefore be false.
22:11:17 <ehird> 12:22:05 <AnMaster> Ilari, well ok, why copy it then? can't you keep track of what you are doing yourself?
22:11:25 <ehird> ...and that's why AnMaster defines every type in his C program as int
22:12:34 -!- coppro has joined.
22:15:14 <Ilari> BTW, if you want to see horrible C++ code, look at Firefox code. Not using those "horrible" C++ features results quite horrible code...
22:15:55 <Ilari> I think Firefox does it because bad C++ compilers don't support pretty much anything on top of C besides classes...
22:15:56 <ehird> Breaking your mind and shit yeah
22:17:07 -!- augur has joined.
22:17:34 <Ilari> If you want to really test C++ compiler, test wheither it survives some tricky partial template specialization. ICEs and segfaults ahead if the compiler isn't really stable...
22:17:56 <pikhq> Firefox's source code is pretty much entirely awful.
22:18:17 <Ilari> AnMaster: IIRC, at least some time ago (probably still), it didn't even use exceptions(!).
22:18:19 <pikhq> I shudder to think that that's the result of a *rewrite* of it...
22:19:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, eh? when was it rewritten?
22:19:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: It was originally Netscape 4.
22:19:25 <Asztal> It still doesn't use them, AFAIK, but they're working on automated rewriting for that
22:19:31 <pikhq> The Mozilla Project rewrote the entire thing.
22:19:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah that far back. yeah that was probably horrible.
22:20:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, rewrote each part one at a time? or started from scratch entirely?
22:20:53 <pikhq> Started from scratch.
22:21:00 <ehird> Netscape 3's code was altogether better, from what I hear.
22:21:03 <AnMaster> then what was the point of having the netscape code there at all?
22:21:08 <ehird> Netscape 4 is massively a result of the second system syndrome.
22:22:56 <pikhq> Pretty much the only bit of code that remained was Netscape's "NGLayout" code. NGLayout was Netscape's attempt to rewrite the layout code.
22:22:57 <Ilari> And C++ is not just C with classes. The proper programming style is quite different.
22:23:01 <pikhq> It went on to become XUL.
22:24:42 <Ilari> And why does Firefox seem to be the most bloated and resource-hungry web browser? Konqi even with all of its KDE stuff seems lighter...
22:25:03 <pikhq> Because it's poorly written.
22:26:05 <ehird> Chrome is double-plus good.
22:26:07 <AnMaster> Ilari, I use konqueror usually, unless some site doesn't work well in it
22:26:19 <ehird> ...but uses quite a bit of memory due to the process-per-tab thing.
22:26:35 <ehird> Midori or something if you want more straight WebKit without that (and also without the fast JS), I guess.
22:26:41 <Ilari> How much dirty memory does Chrome use?
22:27:14 <ehird> Ilari: Define "dirty"; I don't think Windows has a notion of it
22:28:01 <Ilari> Pretty much all OSes with virtual memory have notion of clean and dirty memory...
22:28:36 <Ilari> Dity memory => Pages that have been written and thus can't be discarded from memory (but must be swapped out).
22:28:47 <ehird> But, real memory: private 229,732kiB + shared 5,431kiB = 235,163kiB; nine tabs (one is a popup from another tab and interacts with JS stuff so is in the same process) and one process for the browser.
22:28:59 <ehird> Those pages are all quite heavy.
22:29:12 <ehird> Virtual memory: private 335,984kiB, mapped 100,204kiB.
22:29:24 <ehird> All direct quotes from about:memory.
22:29:27 <ehird> Well, with formatting.
22:29:43 <ehird> I can't measure it in Task Manager, as they're all separate processes.
22:30:20 <ehird> The values range for each process from around 18MB to 53MB. I guess that the ~3.5MB one is the browser process.
22:30:33 <pikhq> Konqueror's not a stellar web browser, but it manages to be much less bloated than Firefox simply by merit of *making design decisions*.
22:30:33 <pikhq> Firefox is a good example of feature creep.
22:31:17 <ehird> Chrome's nice and simple; the only interface apart from a tabbar and back/forwards, refresh, bookmark, the bar (both address and search) and a go button is two icon menus: a document and a wrench.
22:31:33 <ehird> The document is zoom, copy/paste, encoding, developer tools, etc: page stuff.
22:31:47 <ehird> The wrench is new tab, full screen, about, exit, options, etc: browser stuff.
22:32:08 <ehird> It's very well designed.
22:33:16 <Ilari> Its possible to make a process that would have private memory >1GiB (mostly residen't or not), but only few pages (~10KiB) of dirty memory.
22:33:25 <ehird> Still, it's not like the memory usage is correlated with bad performance; having the fastest rendering and JS engine and using native Windows widgets (albeit restyled) it's very fast.
22:33:35 <ehird> Ilari: Probably all the tabs I haven't used are paged out.
22:33:42 <ehird> *add recently after used
22:33:55 <Ilari> Dirty memory is dirty memory even after its paged out.
22:34:06 <ehird> I'm not a memory system guy, so I wouldn't know./
22:36:26 <Ilari> If you have N copies of some process, with everything resident, the memory usage would be union of all clean memory plus sum of all dirty memory.
22:36:46 <ehird> Well, chrome does note the shared memory total.
22:37:00 <ehird> Also, those totals include about:memory.
22:37:20 <ehird> Anyway, 5,250kiB of the 249,710kiB non-virtual memory is shared, according to it.
22:38:24 <Ilari> At least on Linux, shared libraries are mapped as private mappings. But all clean (non-dirty) pages are shareable.
22:39:07 <ehird> Windows probably just uses shaman magic.
22:39:52 <Ilari> Taking qbittorrent process I have running here. Its VMSIZE is ~163M, shared is ~4M. But only ~30M of its memory is dirty.
22:39:57 -!- adam_d_ has quit ("Leaving").
22:44:09 <Ilari> The private/shared is not accurate measurement of how much memory two processes share and how much they don't.
22:44:33 <ehird> True, but I can't give you better without either bloating my system with software to measure it or hacking up something myself, sorry.
22:45:04 <Ilari> Yeah, windows doesn't have equivalent of Linux /proc/X/smaps
22:47:28 <Ilari> (list of VMAs process has plus memory usage information for each).
22:49:41 <ehird> Say, does apt have pluggable backends or do you need only one server format/type/etc, I wonder.
22:50:00 <ehird> Instead of hacking up my own tool I could write an apt module backed by the cygwin package lists...
22:50:29 <Ilari> At least, apt can be pointed to servers on net and to CD-type media...
22:50:40 <ehird> But the backing format it looks at is the same there.
22:50:51 <coppro> I believe it's designed for dpkg format, yes
22:50:54 <ehird> I could write a script to convert it on a server, but "meh".
22:51:00 <ehird> coppro: That's the package format, not the package list.
22:51:18 <ehird> .debs are just tars, and so are decompressed cygwin packages, so I could easily hack that up client-side.
22:51:26 <ehird> But the package list is quite different, I think.
22:51:32 <coppro> but I mean the package list is a specific format
22:51:45 <coppro> it's the format of the Debian control file
22:51:56 <ehird> But apt is quite modular, isn't it?
22:52:51 <ehird> Obviously it's impractical for me to maintain a mirror of all Cygwin packages in .deb format, but I guess I could handle converting the cygwin.ini.
22:53:21 <ehird> But apt passes its packages off to dpkg, whereas it handles the package lists itself, so I expect exactly the wrong things are modular. Grr.
22:54:22 <coppro> I've hacked together my own tool for this before, it's not hard
22:54:46 <ehird> Converting every single Cygwin package to .deb?
22:55:00 <ehird> I'm not maintaining and serving thousands of large files on a server .
22:55:20 <coppro> for dependency analysis in a client-side package manager
22:55:42 <ehird> Oh, you mean an apt replacement.
22:55:53 <ehird> Yes, I can write my own tool; that's what I was doing. It will not be as flexible, powerful or comfortable as apt.
22:56:10 <coppro> I wouldn't classify it as a replacement, but yes
22:56:30 <coppro> you could just steal the apt source
22:56:33 <ehird> Cygwin IS basically a Linux system, and Linux systems deserve apt.
22:56:48 <ehird> coppro: Of course I'll have to patch apt. I just hope that it's modular, so I can only patch the relevant bits.
22:57:12 <ehird> That'll be fun, actually. Install dpkg with Cygwin, dpkg -i apt-cygwin.deb, vi /etc/sources/apt.list.
22:57:22 <ehird> (apt-get update, etc.)
23:04:26 <ehird> Does anyone know how to tell Sumatra PDF to reset the settings for this document to my global default?
23:15:42 <ehird> I wonder, if there are things like bb4win, are there tiling window managers for windows?
23:16:37 <AnMaster> "An assault weapon is a political [1][citation needed] term" <-- err ok. Whatever.
23:16:56 <ehird> You're not Finnish, stop that.
23:17:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, you're still here.
23:20:07 <ehird> Incidentally, Windows has hover-to-focus built-in.
23:24:28 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:24:30 * ehird writes a little build system for a fake program using sh to configure a config.mk file...
23:24:34 <ehird> To see if it works.
23:25:27 -!- Slereah has joined.
23:27:44 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:30:34 <ehird> http://www.windowsizer.com/ ;; would be nicer if it was one of the linux ones ported. Still downloading to try out.
23:33:33 -!- fizzie has joined.
23:33:46 <ehird> Eh, that thing doesn't auatomatically tile.
23:37:31 <ehird> Meh, I'm going to maintain my own set of cygwin .debs
23:37:35 <Asztal> how is it any better than 'Show windows side by side' on the task bar then? :|
23:37:50 <ehird> Asztal: It can do more arrangements and has preferred arrangements and stuff.
23:38:06 <ehird> But it certainly doesn't automatically handle resizes... hmm... maybe it doesn't work on >XP
23:38:44 <ehird> reading the site, almost certainly
23:38:52 <Asztal> Given that it says "Re-sizing one window automatically resizes adjacent windows", sounds broken
23:40:07 <ehird> hmm... if a deb is just an .ar with some special stuff and a cygwin package is just a .tar.bz2 with some special stuff, it can't be too hard to convert them
23:40:09 * ehird installs cygwin 1.7
23:40:21 <ehird> ...and uses the Experimental package versions
23:40:24 <ehird> they're still ancient, but eh
23:41:17 <ehird> I'm not even sure anything is tagged experimental
23:50:51 <ehird> Exp tags everything as "Skip". Fuck that, then.
23:51:13 <ehird> So Cygwin 1.7 "current" is the most up-to-date Cygwin you can get.
23:51:27 <ehird> Now featuring bash 3 plus 0.0.0.1 extra from the past release.
23:52:04 <pikhq> Apt is rather easy to patch, I *believe*.
23:52:15 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:52:27 <pikhq> And that's definitely a good idea; Cygwin's setup.exe sucks.
23:52:42 <ehird> All of Cygwin sucks, it's a shoddy system.
23:53:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:53:17 <ehird> But the only alternative, MSYS, is just a really old fork of Cygwin and sucks more (to compile executables for it you need to use a patched gcc 2; nobody bothers to update it because MSYS is supposed to be just a tool with which to run MinGW)
23:54:20 <Asztal> GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i686-pc-msys)
23:54:47 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
23:56:05 -!- coppro has joined.
23:56:31 <ehird> Especially annoying is that no terminal program for Windows has the balls to try and emulate cmd.exe properly, so for calling out to Windows command-line programs you have to use cmd.exe.
23:56:51 <ehird> Oh, and MSYS has one huge advantage over Cygwin: it automatically translates Unix pathnames if you call a Windows tool.
23:57:06 <ehird> None of this $(cygpath -xyzzy ...) bullshit.
23:57:52 <coppro> isn't msys deprecated or something?
23:58:19 <ehird> 23:53<ehird>But the only alternative, MSYS, is just a really old fork of Cygwin and sucks more (to compile executables for it you need to use a patched gcc 2; nobody bothers to update it because MSYS is supposed to be just a tool with which to run MinGW)
23:58:21 <ehird> 23:54<Asztal>GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i686-pc-msys)
23:58:23 <ehird> 23:54<ehird>Fuck yeah.
23:58:45 <ehird> But it's still supported and a prominent feature of the site, yes.
23:59:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:59:44 <ehird> Really, I just want bash, coreutils like stuff, vi, rxvt and a few other things.
00:00:31 <ehird> Windows has a little bit of POSIX but not enough for those. Well, vi will compile fine and coreutils shouldn't require ginormous patches, but bash and rxvt? Crapshoot.
00:01:01 <ehird> There's a native X server for Windows, Xming, but rxvt has been patched to have a Windows GUI so that isn't even needed; it's the rest of rxvt that'd be the problem.
00:09:04 <pikhq> Wow. Protesters at Washington yesterday, arguing vaguely against the protest, seem to think that their protest was the "biggest crowd to march on Washington".
00:09:14 <pikhq> Some ten thousand people.
00:09:36 <ehird> Protesting against the protest? Wut
00:09:43 <pikhq> s/protest/President/
00:09:48 <ehird> Aw. This way's more fun.
00:09:52 <pikhq> ... I've seen crowds orders of magnitude larger march on Washington.
00:09:56 <ehird> "Concerned Citizens Against Concerned Citizens Against Taxes"
00:10:10 <ehird> "Taxpayers Opposing Concerned Citizens Against Concerned Citizens Against Taxes"
00:10:19 <ehird> "March For the Opposition of Taxpayers Opposing Concerned Citizens Against Concerned Citizens Against Taxes"
00:12:34 <ehird> Polity partics (he wrote, before looking at that and sporrecting his coonerism), party politics in the US are just tedious. Both parties are so crazy that there's no way to comprehend them, so it's best to ignore them.
00:16:12 <pikhq> The Democrats are less crazy. (... in much the same way that a schizophrenic is less crazy than a schizophrenic serial killer)
00:16:50 <ehird> In much the same way as a schizophrenic serial killer is less crazy than a schizophrenic serial killer that urinates on their victims beforehand.
00:20:12 <oerjan> well i'm not schizophrenic, and neither am i, and besides they never found any bodies
00:21:17 <oerjan> also, you are just imagining you are reading this. maybe _you_ are the schizophrenic one.
00:22:28 <oerjan> hm, i seem to be hearing a voice. it said, "you're right." but then, that's what they always say. they don't dare anything else.
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00:25:00 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/cygwine/ super!
00:25:14 <ehird> don't know how it's more like wine, though
00:25:34 <ehird> "We don't really need two different installers, so I hope you find a way to merge your efforts with those working on setup.exe."
00:25:51 <oerjan> you need to store it for a few years before using it.
00:25:55 <ehird> why not get rid of shitup.exe and rename this setup.exe, there's nothing salvageable in the other...
00:29:53 <GregorR> When I saw "cygwine", I thought of dozens of awesome possibilities.
00:30:44 <HackEgo> * Cygnus (, genitive Cygni ) is a northern constellation. Its name is Latin for swan. One of the most recognizable constellations of the northern ... \ [18]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyg \
00:31:20 <oerjan> how do you make wine from swans anyway
00:32:54 <GregorR> 2) Throw out the skin and muscle
00:32:59 <GregorR> 3) Put the guts in water and shake vigorously
01:03:49 <pikhq> GregorR: I don't think it works that way.
01:03:54 <pikhq> (not enough sugar)
01:05:04 <oerjan> except when they swoop
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01:09:40 <ehird> GregorR: I'm pretty sure wine will run on cygwin, anyway
01:09:47 <ehird> and cygwin runs in wine
01:09:52 <ehird> so you can nest as much as you want
01:10:02 <ehird> needs a preferences Dialog
01:10:28 <ehird> Speed - Slow [ ] Astronomically slow
01:11:24 <ehird> " I like the nice wx-based GUI, that's really pretty." // yeah, apart from the really crickly edges on the button images...
01:11:33 <ehird> Are people blind or something?
01:12:18 <Ilari> Is "speed of fusion in star 100 times the mass of Jupiter" "Astronomically slow"? :->
01:12:41 <ehird> Astronomically obviously means "grossly hugely".
01:13:10 * Sgeo needs to force himself not to copy/paste
01:14:16 <Sgeo> It leads to bugs and is ugly
01:14:17 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/crack_pairings.htm
01:14:37 <Sgeo> Including table 4 incorrectly referring to table 3
01:14:46 <ehird> "Pregnancy (use male pregnancy if needed)"
01:15:07 <Sgeo> Go blame the people at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111631
01:15:09 <ehird> (The above line is singular justification for not setting +c on this channel and mandating that ^I is italics, not inverse.)
01:16:04 <ehird> Sgeo: wtf, did you really not think of writing one function over many tables?
01:16:30 <Sgeo> ehird, I did, but some of the tables have things like using the initial table, and others don't.
01:16:31 <ehird> also, using Math.floor on random values?
01:17:17 <Sgeo> It's been a while since I did any Javascript. I used another page that I wrote, again a while after I did any Javascript, to jog my memory
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01:17:43 <ehird> you fail at randomness :||
01:18:38 <Sgeo> How is it fail? I really don't know
01:18:54 * ehird notes http://code.google.com/p/cygwin-rurban/source/browse/trunk/contrib/cyginstall/cyginstall for his own purposes
01:19:14 <ehird> Sgeo: you should round < 5 down, > 5 up to retain the ... thingy of the original number
01:19:22 <ehird> otherwise i'm pretty sure it's unevenly distributed
01:19:30 <ehird> for ==5, do whatever
01:27:46 * oerjan doesn't think that matters much except at the edges, where it might depend
01:28:18 <ehird> just use Math.round or something :P
01:29:04 <oerjan> if your floats are in a range [0 .. n) then you definitely want floor to get {0, ..., n-1} values
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01:29:24 <oerjan> rounding would fail by having half length intervals at the edges
01:29:36 <ehird> you have to weak the range afterwards in JS
01:29:39 <ehird> which is what he does
01:29:43 <ehird> so it's irrelevant
01:30:19 <oerjan> nevertheless you want those int values you actually use to come from same length float subintervals
01:30:36 <ehird> JS only has one range, iirc
01:30:43 <ehird> for random numbers
01:31:33 <ehird> [] is inclusive, () is exclusive, right?
01:31:41 <ehird> I _think_ it includes 1.0, but I'm not sure
01:32:29 <oerjan> floor(n*rnd) gives a uniform integer as long as you cannot hit n
01:32:39 <oerjan> but maybe best to check anyway
01:36:16 <Sgeo> So if Math.random() returns between [0, 1) then my code is correct?
01:36:33 <Sgeo> (well, except for the whole idiotic table_1 table_2 table_3 etc. thing)
01:38:47 <Sgeo> Because Math.random(), while it will never ever return 1, will occasionally (VERY occasionally) return zero.
01:38:50 <Sgeo> http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?t=545326
01:39:33 <ehird> Actionscript is an implementation of ECMAscript.
01:39:38 <ehird> So don't dismiss arguments based on it.
01:39:41 <ehird> Anyway, just test.
01:40:08 <ehird> for (i=0;i<100000;i++) if (Math.random()==1) alert("fuck")
01:40:09 <Sgeo> Any errors based on the number being too high are (with one exception) absorbed by an else
01:41:24 <Sgeo> I didn't get "fuck" when I changed that 1 to a 0, though
01:41:50 <ehird> Then I guess it's (0, 1] which is weird. Just look it up in the ECMAscript specification.
01:42:04 <ehird> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/ECMA-262.pdf
01:42:12 <Sgeo> I didn't get fuck when it was one
01:42:24 <Sgeo> I might have been unlucky enough to not get zeros
01:42:56 <ehird> "Returns a number value with positive sign, greater than or equal to 0 but less than 1"
01:43:02 <ehird> blah blah blah etc.
01:43:15 <ehird> Asztal: hey, does Sumatra really not have copy/paste of text?
01:43:38 <ehird> It can search but not select...
01:43:57 <ehird> Except it selects as a rectangle
01:44:04 <ehird> Returns a number value with positive sign, greater than or equal to 0 but less than 1, chosen randomly
01:44:06 <ehird> or pseudo randomly with approximately uniform distribution over that range, using an
01:44:08 <ehird> implementation-dependent algorithm or strategy. This function takes no arguments.
01:44:16 <ehird> That's a, wossname, retarded interface.
01:44:37 <Sgeo> Quoting that parrot from Eric?
01:45:04 <ehird> Well, just the wossname bit.
01:45:23 <Sgeo> THat's what I meant
01:46:15 * ehird wonders how hard it'd be to build ghc on cygwin
01:46:23 <ehird> Well, it'd be porting, essentially, but...
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01:55:34 <ehird> "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. You must be poor." // an odd process of deduction there
01:58:11 <ehird> So, does anyone know if Lua still sucks?
01:58:45 <Sgeo> OSMP was supposed to use Lua
01:58:56 * oerjan didn't know it sucked in the first place
02:01:00 <Sgeo> http://www.solipsis.org/ I didn't remember Solipsis being 3d.. or anything other than a bunch of dots
02:02:51 <ehird> (Sgeo immediately attempts to travel forwards in time so he can be nostalgic about it)
02:03:21 <oerjan> and he succeeds! - very slowly though
02:04:24 <Sgeo> There are things I don't get nostalgic about!
02:04:36 <Sgeo> I don't get nostalgic over IMVU
02:06:30 <Sgeo> I don't get nostalgic over the time that I was without computer access for a long period of time
02:06:54 <ehird> Neither of those are open-ended 3D virtual realities
02:08:17 <Sgeo> I'm not especially nostalgic over OSMP, but it never really worked in a large-scale manner
02:08:38 <ehird> I like how you're only nostalgic about good things.
02:08:41 <ehird> Takes caliber, that.
02:09:39 <Sgeo> Actually, I'm feeling some OSMP-related nostalgic, but more about the ideas I had for it then OSMP itself
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02:42:30 <Sgeo> I saw the typo, but figured you'd try to make some joke out of it, instead of a boring correction
02:43:05 <ehird> far too lazy for that
02:44:04 <ehird> CMake has several forms of documentation. There is a book Mastering CMake by Ken Martin and Bill Hoffman (ISBN 1-930934-16-5) which is published by Kitware and can be purchased through Kitware's e-store or through Amazon. // which costs $52
02:44:10 <ehird> and the "documentation" is generated from the source code
02:44:17 <ehird> in conclusion, the cmake documentation costs $52+shipping
02:44:22 <ehird> what an "open" project
02:46:10 <Sgeo> You know what, I'm done delaying on my homework. Restarting my computer. I won't be back until one or two paragraphs are done.
02:46:46 <ehird> Homework: because the whole day wasn't enough!
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02:47:45 * coppro is glad not to have any homework
02:47:51 <coppro> at least, none due tomorrow :P
02:48:58 <coppro> the whole day is never enough
02:49:59 <ehird> No, no, I mean that "homework" is the (wrong) answer to "keeping kids in our environment all day and prodding them with repeated reciting of textbooks isn't teaching them anything. What do we do?"
02:53:50 <ehird> Incidentally, my disk can store 385.92 miles.
02:54:00 <ehird> http://neologasm.org/neologasm/2007/07/fortraninch.html via http://andrewducker.livejournal.com/1227424.html
02:54:07 <ehird> Well, anti-via, rather. "refers to", maybe.
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03:45:32 <ehird> Amusingly, CygWine uses mingwm10.dll, i.e., some MinGW thing.
03:52:09 <ehird> CygWine seems to only do 1.5, *sigh*
03:52:30 <ehird> I could patch the code to use -2, but I'd need MinGW and wxWidgets dev libs.
03:52:47 <ehird> Also, it uses goddamn cmake.
04:03:11 <ehird> ("If nothing goes overly wrong, the official 1.7.1 release goes public still within the the first half of 2009.")
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04:12:10 <ehird> http://tommd.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/kernel-modules-in-haskell/
04:12:13 <ehird> pikhq will love this.
04:12:22 <ehird> Type-safe, garbage collected, referentially transparent Linux kernel modules?
04:12:38 <ehird> I think my hostility to Linux just evaporated.
04:14:36 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/user/bonch, a single-minded dimwit.
04:17:55 <GregorR> TAKE A DRINK FOR EVERY HASKELL LINK
04:18:09 <ehird> TAKE A DRINK FOR EVERY DRINK
04:18:22 <ehird> aka alcoholism in 1 step
04:18:41 <ehird> GregorR: also, you forgot the newline.
04:20:01 <GregorR> IT'S NOT \ A FUCKING POEM \ I'LL ARRANGE IT \ HOWEVER I ... damn, can't rhyme here.
04:20:15 <ehird> GregorR: Try "SHIT"
04:20:28 <ehird> Also, not doesn't rhyme with poem. So you failed already!
04:20:29 <GregorR> Apparently "poem" rhymes with "shit"
04:20:40 <ehird> What's your rhyming scheme, not a single line there rhymes
04:20:48 <ehird> Not doesn't rhyme with it, dude.
04:21:27 <GregorR> IT'S NOT \ A POEM, NITWIT \ I'LL ARRANGE IT \ HOWEVER I SEE FIT
04:22:29 <ehird> IT'S NOT \ A FUCKING POEOT \ I'LL ARRANGE IT \ HOWEVER I SHIT
04:22:59 <GregorR> Apparently in ehird's view of the universe, poems have to be in the AABB rhyme scheme.
04:23:17 <ehird> No, I just wanted it to be, so I could say poeot and use the it/shit rhyme.
04:23:33 <ehird> Also, to imply that you can arrange anything in the manner in which you shit.
04:23:44 <GregorR> There once was a man from Nantucket \ who oh damn who cares fuck it \ I've given up on this poem \ so this won't rhyme \ who the fuck cares.
04:24:03 <ehird> Also, "IT'S NOT \ A POEM, NITWIT \ I'LL ARRANGE IT \ HOWEVER I SEE FIT" it's ABBB.
04:24:22 <ehird> >There once was a man from Nantucket \ who oh damn who cares fuck it \ I've given up on this poem \ so this won't row, um \ who the fuck cares.
04:24:33 <ehird> I SUBVERTED YOUR INTENT
04:24:38 <GregorR> Oh damn, I didn't even intend for the third line to rhyme with the second and fourth :P
04:25:06 <GregorR> Except that the last line of a limerick is supposed to rhyme with the first.
04:25:29 <ehird> There once was a man from Nantucket \ who oh damn who cares fuck it \ I've given up on this poem \ so this won't row, um \ not even if you use a bucket.
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04:26:15 <ehird> There once was a man with an orange \ shit
04:26:20 -!- bsmntbombdood___ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood.
04:26:58 <ehird> Not many other paths to go down, really.
04:27:03 <GregorR> Emo poetry: I don't know how to rhyme \ I just cry into my pillow \ in my parent's basement \ maybe I should get another piercing.
04:27:51 <ehird> Emoetry: My dream's skies are like flames / they're hot and lick around / UNLIKE MY BOYFRIEND / who is never around / I'LL KILL MYSELF WITHOUT MAKING A SOUND / I can so rhyme around with around
04:28:04 <ehird> / Because I'm nonconformist
04:28:19 <ehird> / And not bound by any rules
04:28:30 <ehird> It's good because it's purposefully terrible.
04:28:35 <ehird> *It's good because it's purposefully terrible!
04:29:59 <ehird> Though just to rhyme, just this one time
04:30:05 <ehird> What is Black Dynamite?
04:30:08 <ehird> *note: don't bother answering
04:30:13 <ehird> I just wanted to make some more wonderful poetry!
04:30:43 <ehird> Metaploitation: a ploitation of the whole genre of anything-ploitation, including itself.
04:31:02 <notostraca> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Dynamite
04:31:22 <ehird> No, I invented a new genre.
04:31:25 <ehird> That only goes one level.
04:31:37 <notostraca> NSFW: http://www.worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=10932
04:31:50 <ehird> "Removed by Sony Pictures"
04:31:56 <ehird> Best trailer ever.
04:33:02 <notostraca> http://www.firstshowing.net/2008/11/23/worth-watching-nov-23-badass-black-dynamite-trailer/
04:33:16 <ehird> I have no audio, so this better be good enough without.
04:36:15 <ehird> I agree, which is why I closed it.
04:36:38 <ehird> No, I don't think that will be necessary.
04:36:59 <notostraca> the movie looks pretty awesome in an offensive way
04:38:03 <GregorR> `imdb Gayniggers from Outer Space
04:38:07 <HackEgo> Gayniggers from Outer Space (1992) \ User Rating: \ \ 6.0/10 [91]3,296 votes \ -- \ Plot: \ \ Extraterrestrial beings travel the galaxy to free men "oppressed" by females to make way for an entirely-homosexual society. | [104]full synopsis
04:38:23 <ehird> Black Dynamite is apparently intentionally parodic though, while Gayniggers is just really bad comedy.
04:38:30 <ehird> ...that I still need to watch some time.
04:39:11 <ehird> Although I'm fairly sure it cannot possibly live up to the lie of Gay Nigger Jim raping a toilet until he explodes and the song "Gay Niggers Eat Pigs and Fly on Penises Made Out of Ham and Brown Ham, Because They're Gay Niggers".
04:44:21 <ehird> http://cygwinports.blogspot.com/ ooh
04:45:19 <GregorR> For people who want Windows only for the binary compatibility.
04:46:08 <ehird> No, for people who like nice shells, unix-style command-line tools, etc and would like Unix-only programs, including X11 ones, to work seamlessly with their Windows ones.
04:46:54 <ehird> Cygwin is hugely (but not quite *cripplingly*, unless you have a large shell script and don't want it to take many minutes) flawed environment, but what it provides is valuable and nothing quite matches that.
04:47:20 <ehird> Windows has a very hostile command-line environment, so it's almost necessary.
04:48:03 <ehird> The only native binary of a shell is UnxUtil's zsh, which is ancient (last updated in 2003, or 2007 depending on whose dates you believe), and it isn't stable on Windows 7, at least (crashes a lot, some other weird bugs)
04:48:30 <ehird> Although GnuWin32 offers some GNU tools (but not a shell), that's still a limited set.
04:48:40 <ehird> So Cygwin Ports is a good effort.
04:49:48 <pikhq> I've got severel native POSIX binaries on my Windows VM.
04:49:48 <GregorR> So somehow you just haven't heard of MSYS?
04:49:56 <ehird> GregorR: I was hoping you'd say that!
04:50:02 <pikhq> Including /bin/sh, /bin/ksh, and /opt/gentoo/bin/bash
04:50:18 <pikhq> Granted, they're not Win32 binaries at all.
04:50:21 <ehird> GregorR: MSYS is an outdated fork of Cygwin, and has all the same flaws except it's fucking old. Furthermore, it has a fixed set of tools: if you want anything more, you have to have a patched version of gcc 2.
04:50:28 <ehird> *use a patched version
04:50:41 <ehird> GregorR: In conclusion, wow, no way MSYS is superior to Cygwin.
04:50:51 <ehird> Its only advantage is that it automatically translates Unix paths to Windows ones if you call a non-MSYS tool.
04:51:12 <ehird> pikhq: gcc 3, iirc. But I might try it sometime.
04:51:21 <ehird> Still, I don't particularly want to compile too much stuff myself.
04:51:23 <GregorR> ehird: A) I never claimed that it was, I merely said that there was another native binary shell, MSYS'. B) I strongly suspect that your statements about MSYS are more outdated than MSYS is.
04:51:26 <ehird> (Yes, I know gcc 4 is available)
04:51:33 <ehird> GregorR: MSYS is not a native binary shell.
04:51:36 <ehird> It uses a DLL, just like Cygwin.
04:51:44 <ehird> Since the DLL is a modified version of an old version of Cygwin.
04:51:51 <ehird> And absolutely false, I used it a day or two ago.
04:51:54 <pikhq> ehird: GCC 4 works on it, it's just not the default.
04:52:16 <ehird> You're not even meant to compile stuff for MSYS, which is why it's such a bitch. It is purely meant as a fixed development environment for using MinGW in.
04:52:19 <GregorR> Bah, I'm going to have to go boot up Windows just because I'm so convinced that you're full of shit.
04:52:20 <pikhq> Gentoo Prefix and Debian's Interix port install it, IIRC.
04:52:30 <ehird> GregorR: Which bit, exactly, do you think is false?
04:52:38 <ehird> pikhq: I don't want a Linux distribution.
04:53:38 <pikhq> ehird: So, you don't want a POSIX environment that coincidentally coexists with a Windows environment. Rather, you'd prefer Cygwin that doesn't suck.
04:53:51 <ehird> No, I do want the former, and it's the latter.
04:53:52 <pikhq> (or ideally an OS that doesn't suck, but we can't always have that)
04:54:03 <ehird> A Linux distribution isn't the best POSIX environment to coexist with Windows...
04:55:14 <pikhq> Interix offers a basic POSIX environment, and Gentoo xor Debian for it just install additional packages. Kinda like MacPorts.
04:55:33 <ehird> Yes, but for Debian they're *Debian* packages, patched and outdated.
04:55:42 <pikhq> Oh, right. Debian.
04:55:45 <ehird> For Gentoo I have to compile them myself.
04:56:00 <pikhq> In Gentoo you have to tell them to compile and be patient.
04:56:09 <pikhq> That's a bit less complicated than actually compiling them.
04:56:24 <ehird> Yes, but it's unneeded waiting, which isn't something I'm particularly good at being patient for.
04:56:28 <pikhq> You at least don't have to directly deal with some of the more painful build systems out there.
04:56:37 <ehird> Yes I do, when they break.
04:56:53 <ehird> (This is Windows + Microsoft stuff: not if.)
04:57:15 <ehird> [AT THIS POINT, GREGORR'S REALITY IS SHATTERED]
04:57:20 <GregorR> GCC 2.95, msys-1.0.dll, garbage in a large stinking pile.
04:57:59 <ehird> GregorR: With Cygwin, you get gcc 3 or a broken gcc 4. Booyah!
04:58:20 <GregorR> MSYS is just a shell and related gunk.
04:58:24 <ehird> GregorR: MinGW doesn't do POSIX.
04:58:37 <ehird> Windows does a little bit of POSIX, and MinGW lets you compile with that.
04:58:57 <ehird> You can't compile a *nix program for it; you can only port it. Using Win32 for the bits Windows doesn't do.
04:58:59 <GregorR> No, it doesn't. But here's a giant shock: That little bit of POSIX that Windows does is enough to appease 99% of the well-written software out there with small nudges.
04:58:59 <pikhq> That's older than my CPU architecture.
04:58:59 <pikhq> It might even be older than my knowledge of C.
04:59:02 <ehird> YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
04:59:19 <ehird> GregorR: Which is why there are whole projects designed to port *nix things to Win32.
04:59:25 <ehird> Including trivial things like basic utilities.
04:59:40 <ehird> Because it Just Works! Yaaaay imaginative reality
04:59:46 <GregorR> The basic utilities are the MOST difficult to port things X_X
04:59:58 <ehird> Something like grep.
05:00:14 <ehird> grep is quite well-written, grep doesn't use crazy POSIX hacks as far as I know.
05:00:18 <ehird> Yet it's still a porting effort.
05:00:31 <ehird> Same for every damn thing.
05:00:35 <pikhq> Windows does decent chunks of POSIX.1. That gets you... File operations.
05:00:54 <ehird> But guize, I heard it passed all the POSIX tests!!!111
05:01:20 <ehird> GregorR: Also, it doesn't even have mmap() or fork().
05:01:29 <ehird> fork() is understandable, mmap() less so: breaks tons of shit.
05:01:48 <pikhq> Windows is only POSIX compliant if you use the POSIX subsystem.
05:02:00 <ehird> In conclusion: Cygwin is the only real option. Apart from *maybe* Interix.
05:02:08 <pikhq> Which is quite a bit different from what people are used to from Windows.
05:02:19 <GregorR> No, the only real option is to throw Windows in the dumpster.
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05:02:26 <pikhq> (even the freaking filesystem magically changes behavior)
05:02:28 <GregorR> And use an OS that doesn't stink to all hell.
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05:02:44 <ehird> GregorR: For non-command-liney stuff, I've found Windows superior to "modern" desktop Linux distributions so far.
05:03:00 <ehird> Its internals and command line environment are shit.
05:03:14 * GregorR steps out before the OS war silliness kills us all.
05:03:20 <ehird> But it has so much momentum behind it that the day-to-day desktop stuff is quite easy to make not suck.
05:03:27 <ehird> GregorR: Oh, feel free to argue. I love arguing!
05:03:34 <pikhq> Its GUI makes a 15 year old X environment look consistent.
05:03:53 <ehird> If you use bad software
05:04:03 <pikhq> And almost all of it is bad.
05:04:12 <Asztal> They do make it easy to write bad software :)
05:04:15 <ehird> Due to Sturgeon's Law. Windows is the biggest platform, therefore...
05:04:22 <pikhq> (even software that comes with it is rather bad)
05:04:29 <ehird> The only thing that doesn't blend in atm that I actually use is Chrome, because its toolbar widgets have a custom gradient on and the icons are custom.
05:04:33 <ehird> But it's so subtle as to be irrelevant.
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05:04:57 <ehird> pikhq: 7's Explorer is actually decent.
05:05:14 <pikhq> Oh, they made that not blatantly different from everything else?
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05:06:11 <ehird> Most directories use the pleasing list-with-columns view with sane default sizes. There's a customisable shortcut toolbar to the left, and a field in which you can navigate up and down the directory structure at any point.
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05:06:17 <ehird> That also serves as a go-to-location field.
05:06:51 <ehird> It has a search field for the current directory (you can change where you want to search after hitting enter) next to that, and all the common option f a file are in a changing toolbar below these.
05:07:35 <ehird> Oh, and the file you're hovering over is highlighted, which is nice for picking a file out of a long list.
05:07:48 <ehird> Far better than XP's Explorer, which is worthless.
05:08:29 <pikhq> You neglect that Chrome also magically doesn't have a titlebar.
05:08:40 <pikhq> Unlike every other Windows program.
05:08:48 <ehird> On Vista and XP, it uses the native titlebar.
05:08:52 <ehird> It just nudges the tabs up into it.
05:09:03 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Google_Chrome.png
05:09:18 <ehird> Yes, and? That's what a titlebar looks like with Aero.
05:09:19 <pikhq> That, there, is inconsistency.
05:09:28 <ehird> No it's not, it's just different UI design.
05:09:36 <Asztal> Explorer doesn't have title text either; it doesn't need it
05:09:45 <ehird> Right below is the hierarchy field
05:09:46 <pikhq> Really? Every titlebar has no text in it, no icon, and "Google" right next to the minimize button?
05:10:02 <ehird> It also has no icon, its back/forwards buttons are in the toolbar, along with the location and search field.
05:10:26 <ehird> Chrome's only difference is the Google logo (which is unnoticeable), and the fact that the tabs are a little higher than what Explorer does.
05:10:28 <pikhq> ... My point is that doing that shit *sucks giant donkey balls*.
05:10:33 <Asztal> You can still double-click where the icon should be to close explorer, if you happen to be in a windows 3.1 frame of mind.
05:10:34 <ehird> It's perfectly usable.
05:10:53 <ehird> Is OS X "inconsistent" because its toolbar icons are in the "title bar" gradient?
05:11:06 <pikhq> It's doing things differently from all the other programs on the same OS for no good reason.
05:11:16 <ehird> Except that it isn't different from all other programs.
05:11:21 <ehird> This is standard Vista-style UI fare.
05:11:27 <pikhq> Really? No program has text in the title bar?
05:11:46 <pikhq> And control widgets are where the text would be in previous iterations of Windows?
05:11:48 <ehird> In pikhq's world, every program has the exact same UI and does the same thing because otherwise it'd be different from every other program on the same OS
05:12:02 <ehird> Also, that's not true. In Explorer they're lower down.
05:12:08 <ehird> the point is that every tab is the window
05:12:18 <ehird> The tab you're on is the title
05:12:20 <pikhq> In ehird's world, forming a strawman is a valid criticism.
05:12:25 <ehird> It's doing exactly the right thing for its UI
05:12:40 <ehird> That's Chrome's design, that's how it's meant to be: there is no browser UI, the tab is the title bar.
05:12:58 <ehird> Would you be happy if it was slightly higher up and didn't have a background? That's ridiculous.
05:13:15 * Sgeo prefers consistent UIs. I even tended to avoid using KDE/Qt programs in GNOME and GNOME/GTK+ programs in KDE
05:13:45 <pikhq> I'd be happy if it were consistent with other programs' look and feel, rather than creating a custom title bar.
05:14:10 <ehird> It isn't custom if other fucking programs do it
05:14:15 <ehird> It's not some weird Chrome thing
05:14:25 <Sgeo> Might not be "custom", but it's annoying
05:14:36 <ehird> ...no it's not. Have you ever USED Chrome on Vista/7?
05:14:39 <pikhq> It's some weird "some random set of programs do it".
05:14:40 <ehird> It's completely unnoticeable and perfectly designed.
05:14:53 <ehird> pikhq: INCLUDING THE FLAGSHIP ORGANIZER SHIPPED WITH THE OS
05:15:04 <pikhq> ehird: MY POINT IS THAT EVEN THE PROGRAMS THAT COME WITH IT SUCK.
05:15:05 <ehird> That also does the system settings
05:15:14 <Sgeo> Do most programs do it Chrome's/Explorer's way?
05:15:15 <pikhq> BECAUSE THEY RANDOMLY DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY FOR NO GOOD REASON.
05:15:22 <ehird> Meh, no point discussing this; you've used XP and think you nkow what's consistent or good or not in 7
05:15:30 <ehird> So, carry on thinking that
05:15:32 <Sgeo> pikhq, if you talk about XP, you definately have a point
05:15:49 <Sgeo> I don't know what the typical UI is on Vista or 7
05:16:01 <pikhq> Also, newer programs keep the Aero UI in XP, with some widgets changed.
05:16:02 <ehird> No, silly! He's talking about an OS he knows from a few screenshots and anecdotes. In other words, he's an expert.
05:16:13 <ehird> pikhq: ...what? No. No they don't.
05:16:16 <ehird> That is not true whatsoever.
05:16:18 <ehird> You are simply wrong.
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05:17:04 <Sgeo> The way Chrome looks in XP is inconsistent with most XP programs
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05:17:21 <ehird> pikhq is too, except he doesn't know shit about 7
05:17:48 <pikhq> So, apparently in 7 the title bar is meaningless.
05:18:07 <ehird> Genius deductions based on anecdote and one screenshot, pal.
05:18:32 <Asztal> The title is unnecessary in explorer because the breadcrumb bar tells you everything you need to know
05:18:35 <ehird> For example, it's not as if the Explorer title bar is like that BECAUSE THE TITLE OF THE FOLDER YOU'RE IN is in the title bar.
05:18:47 <ehird> Nope, it should be redundant and keep that below the fold while ALSO putting it in the window title.
05:18:52 <ehird> Yep, that makes sense.
05:19:02 <ehird> Alternate universe: "So, apparently in 7 the title bar is redundant."
05:19:17 <pikhq> More sense then only some programs having any information in the title bar at all.
05:19:27 <ehird> EXPLORER HAS THE INFORMATION IN THE TITLE BAR.
05:19:38 <ehird> "[icon] > Computer > Local Disk (C:) >"
05:19:41 <ehird> That is the folder I am in.
05:19:44 <ehird> That is what would be in the title bar.
05:19:46 <ehird> IT IS IN THE TITLE BAR.
05:19:53 <pikhq> Looks to be below the title bar to me.
05:20:04 <Asztal> It's in the glassy area, so I suppose that counts
05:20:06 <ehird> It's in the transparent area above the window contents, i.e. THE TITLE BAR.
05:20:20 <ehird> You can move the window by it.
05:20:24 <ehird> i.e. THE TITLE BAR
05:20:41 <ehird> (Drag the glass area below the field. Voila, moving. That's what the title bar does.)
05:21:05 <pikhq> ... So UI elements are being stuck in the title bar?
05:22:05 <ehird> pikhq: You mean like the program icon, title text, minimize, maximize and close?
05:22:16 <ehird> Sound like UI elements to me.
05:22:35 <pikhq> Erm. That was poorly phrased.
05:22:47 <ehird> You can also click the program icon for a menu.
05:23:00 <pikhq> Per-program UI elements that are inherently different for each program.
05:23:14 <ehird> It's called discretion.
05:23:18 <ehird> You complained that the title bar was bad because it has no information.
05:23:25 <ehird> In Explorer, the relevant information IS in the title bar.
05:23:41 <ehird> It's also navigable, which is required of such a widget anyway: anything else would be redundance.
05:23:50 <pikhq> I continue to see a null title bar and an inexplicably glassy portion of the program.
05:23:51 <ehird> In Chrome, the title of the page IS in the title bar, and highlighted: it's the current tab.
05:23:55 <ehird> All of these usages are consistent.
05:24:03 <ehird> They contain the correct information in the correct way.
05:24:23 <ehird> pikhq: You can right click the glassy region below the "widgets" to get the window menu, too.
05:24:28 <ehird> It is undeniably the title bar.
05:24:46 <ehird> You wouldn't see it that way after using 7 for some time, unless you're really UI-blind.
05:25:13 <ehird> In fact Explorer would be better if it lifted those elements to the top of the title bar, like Chrome.
05:25:27 <ehird> Right now the title bar has some weird padding at the top.
05:25:32 <pikhq> It's because I continue to see things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Notepad_Vista.png
05:25:49 <ehird> The file location is in the title bar.
05:26:02 <ehird> Then there's the window menu, and then its contents.
05:26:05 <pikhq> Which has quite different titlebar behavior from Explorer or Chrome.
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05:27:20 <pikhq> Yes, it's quite different. The titlebar is a different size and it shows quite different information.
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05:27:56 <ehird> I don't think I will ever change your mind because you have preconceived notions of what is correct and are only engaging in this to convince me, not to bother to be convinced otherwise. I deduce this from your style of debate and persistence.
05:28:04 <ehird> Feel free to prove me wrong.
05:28:23 <pikhq> The Explorer titlebar doesn't even show the title. Just a directory hierarchy.
05:28:38 <ehird> That is what would be shown in the title bar.
05:28:41 <ehird> The directory hierarchy.
05:28:54 <ehird> That is what Explorer's title bar has ALWAYS shown.
05:30:03 <Sgeo> I can imagine that showing "Explorer" in the task bar would be more useful then showing the directory hierarchy
05:30:11 <ehird> I hope you're being sarcastic.
05:30:26 <Asztal> In the task bar, you just get the folder name
05:30:39 <ehird> The 7 titlebar groups windows into applications (like the OS X Dock but better) and the Window title for other programs is what it used to be.
05:30:43 <Sgeo> No, I'm not... although I just considered the possibility of multiple Explorer windows, so nevermind
05:30:47 <ehird> Plus, Explorer windows, well, look like Explorer Windows.
05:30:51 <ehird> So it's not very useful.
05:31:20 * pikhq just wants every damned program to look the same.
05:31:40 <ehird> That is a ridiculously ill-defined notion.
05:31:58 * Sgeo should probably be eating or something
05:31:59 <ehird> 7 has a consistent UI look; you just think it doesn't based on preconceived misconceptions, and I will not convince you otherwise, at least not by talking on IRC.
05:32:13 <Sgeo> It depends on how you define "consistent UI look"
05:32:21 <ehird> That is what I said.
05:32:42 <ehird> It is a ridiculously ill-defined notion, but for any definition that isn't close to "every program should have identical graphics and therefore do exactly the same thing" 7 has it.
05:33:00 <pikhq> In Aero, it looks to me almost like doing Qt and GTK on the same system, with them having themes that emulate each other. You get Notepad, which looks like an XP app with a shiny theme, and Explorer, which looks like it's for a *different OS* and happens to have the same widgets.
05:33:06 <ehird> Besides, Explorer's title bar is exceedingly usable, so fuck any incorrect ideological notions.
05:33:22 <ehird> pikhq: It does not. You are using preconceived blah blah blah I don't give a shit, you're just repeating the same crap..
05:33:32 * Sgeo feels dizzy in his attempt to minorly disagree with ehird
05:33:40 <pikhq> ehird: Imagine if Windows Explorer did the same thing on OS X.
05:33:43 <ehird> Sgeo: I attempt to make that as difficult as possible!
05:33:51 <pikhq> Erm. That was a bad sentence.
05:33:55 <ehird> pikhq: Imagine if a Windows program was on OS X! Wouldn't it be DIFFERENT?
05:34:02 <ehird> No shit, sherlock.
05:34:12 <ehird> BTW, the title bar area in OS X also includes the WHOLE toolbar.
05:34:16 <pikhq> Okay, now you're just being a asshat shitcock fuckoff.
05:34:20 <ehird> Not just the bit relevant to the thing at hand, like the path.
05:34:29 <Sgeo> Seriously, it's as though I have this notion in my mind that everything ehird says is correct
05:34:58 <ehird> Cool, so while I try to end the argument by mildly cursing and saying I don't care anymore, pikhq calls me an asshat shitcock, tells me to fuck off, and sticks his fingers in his ear.
05:35:01 <ehird> Sgeo: That's totally true.
05:35:28 <ehird> Sgeo: If I said that's false, would your brain overheat and would steam come out of your ears?
05:35:58 <Sgeo> No, because I'd get the joke. However, this response to that joke just killed the joke.
05:36:19 * Sgeo turns himself in for murdering a joke.
05:37:04 <ehird> Sgeo: Almost certainly not everything I say is correct. This is actually true and serious, no joke.
05:37:38 <Sgeo> I know, but I think I'd have difficulty recognizing when you're wrong.
05:38:07 <ehird> That's pretty much identical to saying "If I have an opinion about something, and you have one and it differs I'll disagree" which is... fairly obvious...
05:38:33 <Sgeo> ehird, are you intentionally saying incorrect things now to see how I'd react?
05:38:40 <Sgeo> It's not the same at all
05:38:57 <ehird> Sgeo: Yes it is, the only way to determine whether something is true or false that you can agree with is to use your opinions
05:39:27 <Sgeo> I'm saying that if you state an opinion, my mind is likely to adapt that opinion before looking at it critically
05:39:40 <ehird> I will use this for nefarious purposes.
05:44:10 * ehird weighs up windows: shit desktop and linux: shit command line...
05:44:22 <ehird> I really would quite like a Cygwin GHC for a Cygwin darcs...
05:44:26 <ehird> but that'd be a huge porting effort
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05:46:00 * Sgeo wonders if it would be possible/sensible to make a C library of some of the Python standard library
05:46:56 <immibis> well yes, it depends which part
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05:47:40 <ehird> python's so different to C that it'd be unnatural
05:48:39 <immibis> i did say it depends which part. Integer manipulation for example already exists in C.
05:49:24 * Sgeo is thinking more like urllib2. Isn't integer manipulation more a part of the language?
05:50:05 <ehird> urllib2: use libcurl
05:50:44 <Sgeo> Does CPython use libcurl?
05:50:49 <ehird> Sgeo: look at http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/c/simple.html
05:51:11 <ehird> http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/c/sepheaders.html more fleshed out example
05:51:19 <ehird> (downloads a page and its headers into two files)
05:52:01 * Sgeo looks at curlpp
05:52:39 <ehird> Sgeo: why are you using C++?
05:52:49 <Sgeo> ehird, because it's what I'm learning in college right now :/
05:53:00 <ehird> Well that's a good reason :P
05:53:09 <ehird> http://curlpp.org/index.php/examples/47-example-00
05:53:21 <ehird> Looks like a direct binding of libcurl (except uglier)
05:53:55 <Sgeo> Why do you need to make a curlpp::Cleanup ?
05:54:07 <Sgeo> I think I get how that works
05:54:13 <Sgeo> But it still looks nonsensical
05:54:39 <ehird> So when the Cleanup is destroyed, it deallocates and stuff.
05:54:57 <ehird> It's not in the request because you could do multiple requests.
05:56:05 <Sgeo> Well, good night all
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06:06:00 <ehird> I just realised why SPUI was called that
06:06:02 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Spui-schematic.svg/792px-Spui-schematic.svg.png
06:10:19 <ehird> hint: SPUI had a bunch of joking/trolly references to anal sex on his page
06:11:25 <ehird> Or, it looks like goatse.
06:12:36 <ehird> (His page made reference to "single point urban interchange" and he was mostly known for editing transport (including motorway) articles, so it's almost certainly the same thing, even if he didn't see the goatse, which I doubt.)
06:12:41 <ehird> Talk about long-term trolling.
06:12:48 <ehird> Well, he was mostly known for trolling, but.
06:14:03 <notostraca> so i am coming up with ideas for a language on parrot
06:14:16 <ehird> Parrot's just a VM.
06:14:20 <notostraca> so what that could do in this hypothetical language is create the left->right junction of the results of (+ 5 "string") and (str 5 "string")
06:14:40 <notostraca> but it is easier to implement things on there than on, say, C+yacc
06:15:15 <notostraca> junctions are from perl 6, and i can steal from their implementation
06:15:42 <notostraca> the prefix notation is from lisp, but i don't think i will just use () parentheses
06:15:43 <ehird> Still, being on Parrot isn't a feature of the language.
06:16:01 <notostraca> i just meant that was how i was going to do it
06:17:18 <notostraca> it would be fairly amazing if someone wrote a parrot bytecode -> java bytecode converter
06:18:21 <ehird> the vm has a startup time so slow it's worthless for command-line tools, the standard library is awkward and verbose to use
06:18:37 <ehird> there aren't actually that many additional libraries for it as the jvmists claim
06:18:48 <ehird> and its primary GUI library, Swing, is unspeakably bad
06:19:23 <notostraca> https://substance.dev.java.net/see.html
06:20:09 <ehird> Seeing those skins makes me bet that it can't be made to look native.
06:20:21 <ehird> Oh, look, I don't have the JVM.
06:20:33 <ehird> (I didn't notice because nothing actually uses Java.)
06:20:39 <ehird> (Nothing desktop, anyway.)
06:20:56 <ehird> notostraca: all vm people think theirs is ubiquitous and mandatory :-)
06:21:10 <ehird> the only thing with that title on a typical internet-connected desktop is flash
06:21:17 <notostraca> well i use mac, and all macs come with... python, perl, ruby, and java 5+
06:21:25 <ehird> but the fact is that no command-line program uses java, no desktop program uses java
06:21:37 <ehird> notostraca: i'm actually using Windows 7 right now, but I'm a *nixer
06:21:52 <ehird> ...although all OSs right now are woefully inadequate and wasteful
06:21:54 <notostraca> ehird, your sweepping generalizations make me think less of your opinion
06:22:09 <ehird> that'd matter if I was looking to sway your opinion
06:22:29 <ehird> I'm merely stating my experience; no popular program on Windows uses Java apart from OpenOffice, and that only uses it for some things behind the scenes
06:22:37 <ehird> And I find the same applies to Linux and OS X
06:25:26 <ehird> LimeWire, granted, but LimeWire sucks big time.
06:25:40 <ehird> Eclipse is only popular with Java developers. (Don't say that C thing. Nobody uses it.)
06:26:03 <notostraca> Eclipse is slow, but it has helped me a lot
06:26:14 <ehird> that doesn't mean it's popular outside of a niche community
06:26:29 <ehird> also, it's really overly bloated. Does seven billion things, does none of them well...
06:26:47 <notostraca> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Java
06:27:09 <notostraca> mac does even less things than eithe rof those
06:27:44 <ehird> emacs is also terrible
06:27:54 <ehird> there are a surprising number of sharp, compact windows tools
06:28:06 <ehird> linux with the typical gnucrap doesn't do it, indeed
06:28:28 <ehird> notostraca: right now? i edit small files with notepad2 or programmer's notepad, because I haven't got anything set up for that stuff.
06:28:38 <ehird> on os x i mostly used textmate because all the other os x editors suck
06:28:52 <ehird> but for haskell and lisp I used emacs
06:28:59 <ehird> notostraca: depends how you define large
06:29:21 <ehird> if you define it high enough, that project is too big to exist (or is it too big to fail? let's bail out Eclipse)
06:29:38 <ehird> but I'm absolutely fine as long as I have a file switcher tree of the project to the left
06:29:54 <notostraca> over 1000 LoC in C/++? not small enough to be written and maintained effortlessly
06:29:55 <ehird> well, a window switcher list might be better than tabs if I have an awful lot of files open
06:30:02 <ehird> but I find I rarely actually actively edit more than a few files
06:30:14 <ehird> notostraca: 1000? that's a ridiculously low bar, any non-trivial C program will be above that
06:30:29 <ehird> notostraca: xmonad is like 500 lines...
06:30:33 <notostraca> yeah, i was just going for "not a script"
06:30:36 <ehird> and it's a fully-featured window manager that a ton of people use daily
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06:34:11 <notostraca> ehird: you remind me of myself when I'm not on my meds
06:34:44 <notostraca> i also write a lot more than when i am
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06:43:03 <ehird> notostraca: I'm not argumentative, I'm just not adding obvious qualifiers like "I think"
06:43:12 <ehird> although this is commonly misinterpreted as argumentativeness
06:43:40 <notostraca> also i make sweeping generalizations when i don't take my meds
06:43:59 <notostraca> though i am less articulate than you are right now
06:44:06 <ehird> i will make a note to avoid meds :P
06:44:28 <notostraca> i will make a note to keep taking meds
06:44:39 <notostraca> it helps me make friends and not go to jail
06:44:56 <ehird> i have plenty friends, thank you, and I've never committed any harmful crime
06:45:48 <notostraca> you probably don't have Ragin' Cajun Syndrome either
06:46:45 <notostraca> although many more coders than non-coders have aspergers, myself included
06:47:09 <ehird> I hope you aren't another of the self-diagnosed aspergers as an excuse for social incompetency camp...
06:47:12 <ehird> there are way, way too many of those
06:47:14 <notostraca> asperger's syndrome: great syndrome, or the greatest syndrome?
06:47:53 <notostraca> about 4 doctors would testify in court
06:48:10 <ehird> great, now my only qualm is the incredible vagueness of its definition :-P
06:48:30 <notostraca> most of them shouldn't have been given birth certificates, much less doctorates...
06:48:54 <ehird> (as someone who has been tentatively-diagnosed (but not diagnosed) with aspergers, after researching I find it a shaky and dubious vagueness...)
06:49:35 <notostraca> well it is pretty useful when you just want to do one thing
06:49:57 <ehird> I meant I find it dubious as a condition
06:50:01 <notostraca> people with asperger's tend to be abnormally good at focusing on a specific task that they are born to do
06:50:18 <ehird> you're not born to do anything
06:50:57 <notostraca> i typed the quotes with fingers in the air
06:51:10 <ehird> an impressive feat
06:52:20 <notostraca> but i have a knack for game development, which has less to do with the asperger's giving me skill and more to do with the asperger's making me especially interested in the subject
06:53:19 <notostraca> the problem is, i get too interested in the designs and i start switching around to the game that interests me most at the given time
06:53:26 <ehird> I'm aware of the things that are claimed Asperger's brings.
06:53:42 <ehird> (That sentence is truly awkward.)
06:54:07 <ehird> At least mine was valid in a non-poetic sense.
06:54:35 <ehird> how on earth is that argumentative?
06:54:57 <notostraca> you seem to be trying to prove your statements are better
06:55:27 <ehird> Wow, play it again, Freud. I was joking that my sentence was a funner example of an awkward sentence since an invalid sentence outside of a poetic context is just that, not awkward.
06:55:49 <notostraca> sweet, we have aspergers! we can't identify jokes
06:56:00 <ehird> I knew yours was a joke, actually.
06:56:24 <ehird> Obviously we weren't seriously debating the relative merits of awkward sentences...
06:56:33 <ehird> Obviously! Issue: I'm British.
06:57:18 <ehird> you forgot cajuning.
06:57:45 <notostraca> oh, are you a quack doctor like me now? :-P
06:58:00 <notostraca> having seen enough of them, i should know their tricks
06:58:14 <ehird> i'm an inverse homeopath
06:58:49 <ehird> I start with water, and continually dilute it in the thing that causes the ailment until there's less than one part in a trillion water
06:58:53 <ehird> then I give it to the patient
06:59:16 <ehird> the state considers me a homicidal murderer, but I prefer inverse homeopath
06:59:23 <notostraca> some kid went to my school who gave up gluten to see if it would stop his high-functioning autism
06:59:47 <ehird> What does that even mean? "I want to become a social idiot?"
07:00:40 <ehird> They should make meat with added gluten.
07:00:46 <ehird> It'd be, like, the best thing ever. To eat.
07:00:58 <ehird> Quorn doesn't have any meat, dude.
07:01:23 <ehird> It's not dead flesh
07:02:06 <ehird> Meat is meat, egg is just an animal product.
07:02:33 <ehird> It's not meat unless it's the same flesh as would be if it was alive and then died.
07:02:44 <notostraca> "i'm going to fry up some pre-chickens, you want any?"
07:02:52 <ehird> Lab-created never-living flesh counts, dead animal flesh counts
07:03:04 <ehird> And it is DELICIOUS (well, just the latter at the moment)
07:03:45 <ehird> It's not flesh, it's stuff that used to be flesh
07:04:19 <ehird> YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY MEAT DAMNIT
07:04:59 <notostraca> i am designing a language, i have to be precise here and count for all interpretations :-P
07:05:09 <ehird> your programming language includes a notion of meat?
07:05:46 <notostraca> i am in programing-language-design mode, is what i mean
07:06:30 <ehird> notostraca retends anuses
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07:07:02 <notostraca> now i want this language to have 3 big features:
07:07:20 <ehird> Careful, you've set me into ruthlessly-criticise-language mode.
07:07:22 <ehird> I MAY BE FLAMMABLE.
07:07:48 <notostraca> thankfully, you like lisp and haskell well enough
07:07:51 <ehird> I don't know what a junction is, but damnit, I cannot possibly criticize the other two
07:08:17 <notostraca> junctions allow a datum to be two or more things at once
07:08:49 <notostraca> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6#Junctions
07:09:11 <notostraca> that explains it better than i can in short messages
07:09:20 <ehird> Oh, superpositions.
07:09:42 <ehird> They're nice. When I started programming I was always baffled I couldn't do (foo == (1 | 2 | 3)).
07:09:49 <notostraca> the addition is here is ordered unctions
07:10:49 <notostraca> so if you have the ordered junction of two functions, you can iterate through the junction returned until you find a result that isn't an error
07:11:17 <ehird> Does it have a ca, so you can have a cajun
07:13:04 <notostraca> Mongolia Travel - www.DiscoverMongolia.mn - Tours, Hotels, Flights and Trains. Get Affordable Rates. Book Today!
07:13:38 <ehird> "If you thought that Mongolia was just the land of Genghis Khan, think again."
07:13:42 <ehird> And I was just booking my ticket
07:14:15 <notostraca> i was thinking of calling this language Khan back when it was more like haskell in syntax
07:14:40 <notostraca> because genghis khan used arrows extensively, as would this language
07:16:26 <notostraca> http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3396/khano.png i think
07:19:38 <notostraca> ehird: yeah, it needs little pictures of scooby-doo and the various things that aren't the guy wearing a mask
07:20:10 <notostraca> if you don't have hanna-barbara cartoons in britain, you aren't missing out
07:20:21 <ehird> I was just trying to figure out the relevance :P
07:20:36 <ehird> worst reference ever :P
07:20:47 <ehird> like those puzzle things on easter eggs and shit
07:21:04 <notostraca> to make it so no one would use the language
07:22:02 <notostraca> the omnipotent benevolent personified deity, the great Satan?
07:22:55 <notostraca> if you look at christianity today, it seems like satan gets credited with more than the benevolent side of god
07:23:20 <ehird> you mean... christians are irrational?
07:23:22 <ehird> never would I ever have guessed.
07:23:32 <ehird> also, it's not "today"; god kills far more people than satan in the bible
07:23:36 <ehird> also, he's kind of a dick.
07:23:51 <coppro> he was talking about god
07:24:35 <coppro> ehird: if god gets capitalized pronouns, there's got to be something wrong with spelling his name uncapitalized
07:24:45 <FireFly> Nope, wrong religion, not angkor wat
07:25:05 <notostraca> coppro: are you a professional cop or a reference to coprophilia?
07:25:10 <ehird> notostraca: neither
07:25:18 <ehird> but we joke about the latter!
07:25:29 <ehird> coppro: you suck. eat shit!
07:25:33 <coppro> and then I deride your ability to read
07:25:40 <ehird> also, I actually thought *nix was like g*d when I was young, before ever using any *nix
07:25:51 <ehird> like programmers exalted unix so much that they refused to spell the u
07:25:56 <ehird> just like jews and shit with g*d
07:26:06 <notostraca> if only programmers could agree on something
07:26:24 <ehird> *nix doesn't even make any sense, it's not Linix
07:26:31 <ehird> it wasn't even Freanix
07:26:42 <ehird> coppro: so BSD is out then?
07:26:51 <ehird> FireFly: that second ? is odd
07:27:01 <notostraca> yeah, what happened with judaism not allowing YHWH to be spoken and the Jehovah's Witnesses making the romanization of YHWH into the name of their religion?
07:27:22 <coppro> lol Jehovah's Witnesses
07:27:35 <ehird> more like jehovah's poopnesses
07:27:48 <notostraca> a jehovah's witness knocks on a rabbi's door
07:27:53 <ehird> coppro: also, what about ssh? I think you mean *shh :P
07:27:57 <notostraca> rabbi covers his ears, goes "lalalalalala"
07:28:41 <notostraca> i have been very nice to jehovah's witnesses when they come to the door
07:28:46 <coppro> here's a really bad joke:
07:28:55 <coppro> An Irishman walks out of the door.
07:29:19 <ehird> i've never had the opportunity of conversing with a jehovah's witness
07:29:29 <ehird> would be fun to have them go away deeply disturbed at this satanic 14-year-old
07:29:40 <ehird> hmm i guess by 14 they can chalk it off to teenage rebellion
07:29:49 <ehird> notostraca: yeah they seem very boring
07:30:10 <fizzie> .*n.?x would match qnx, although it's debatable whether that's a good thing.
07:30:41 <fizzie> It's a real-timey sort of an OS.
07:30:54 <fizzie> "aimed primarily at the embedded systems market".
07:33:24 <FireFly> Well, I got to go in another ~20 mins
07:33:31 <FireFly> And that's not a binary not
07:33:57 <coppro> Firefly: you're 20 minutes late. Go now!
07:34:05 <FireFly> Actually, I start in 50 minutes
07:34:48 <fizzie> It's the unary binary not.
07:35:09 <fizzie> Yes, I just said it's "not".
07:35:25 <FireFly> And there the lack of a comma after "No" has an important meaning
07:35:50 <fizzie> If not that not, then it must be the Awk regular-expression matching operator, but it doesn't really seem to make sense there.
07:36:12 <coppro> oh boy, #nethack has gotten into a MMO debate
07:36:23 <notostraca> in some languages isn't ~ the marker for negative numbers?
07:36:46 <coppro> it's also, of course, used for matching
07:36:55 <fizzie> I think so too, but can't name one right now.
07:37:15 <fizzie> It's of course also the INTERCAL "select" operator.
07:37:50 <coppro> In my chicken scratchings, ~ usually ends up as being used for matching
07:37:58 <FireFly> Note to self: Always actually spell out "approx." when in #esoteric
07:38:12 <FireFly> To avoid discussions about the choice of symbol
07:38:17 <ehird> Personally I think this pedanticness is annoying.
07:39:25 <coppro> ~~ being used as the "matches" operator, which may be cheaper, for instance because an RE engine doesn't need to capture
07:39:57 <coppro> or the other way round, if I decide that double-symbols mean bitwise and single mean logical
07:41:01 <coppro> why is video game music so awesome?
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07:41:29 <ehird> You asked that before.
07:41:33 <ehird> The answer is that it isn't for the most part.
07:43:19 <ehird> I ought to get audio working here sometime.
07:43:27 <ehird> Then again Cygwin's crappiness is putting me off this.
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07:45:12 <ehird> No answers, though.
07:46:32 <coppro> video game music isn't necessarily the best out there, but it beats the hell out of the radio
07:47:01 <ehird> So does everything.
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07:53:44 * ehird considers getting Arch Linux working
07:53:56 <ehird> it failed pretty badly the last time...
07:56:48 <ehird> And I'm not even sure if Chromium is usable on Linux yet... nor do I know if there's a better graphical IRC client than X-Chat... graphical IRC on linux tends to suck ime
07:58:40 <ehird> At least the font rendering beats ClearType... although not the fonts.
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08:13:43 <ehird> ^bool Should I try to install Arch Linux?
08:13:57 <ehird> Should I try to install Arch Linux over the current Windows 7?
08:14:16 <ehird> Are you sure that I shouldn't try to install Arch Linux over the current Windows 7? Last chance.
08:14:25 <ehird> Then should I try to install Arch Linux over the current Windows 7?
08:14:34 <ehird> Are you sure that I shouldn't try to install Arch Linux over the current Windows 7? Last chance... again.
08:16:12 <fizzie> The bot's quite a waffler.
08:18:31 <ehird> Do you both think I should try to install Arch Linux over the current Windows 7 and are sure?
08:19:17 <ehird> oklofok: gliosperous
08:23:05 <ehird> glio becoming gliosperous in the gliovorous fog
08:23:28 <oklofok> well who wouldn't become sperous in a fog that's out to get you
08:23:48 <oklofok> AnMaster: do my swedish homework :|
08:30:46 <ehird> but you know everything
08:30:49 <oklofok> do my swedish homework and maybe i will
08:31:57 <oklofok> although transcribing the a4 article to you in priv might be slightly more work than just reading it
08:34:15 <oklofok> so anyone read complexity theory companion? it looks rather promising
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08:38:19 <oklofok> complexity theory is very esoteric, actually the whole preface of the book is about how esoteric it is
08:42:27 <ehird> you should teach courses on random shit
08:42:44 <oklofok> "most people view complexity theory as an arcane realm populated by pointy-hatted (if not indeed pointy-headed) sorcerers stirring cauldrons of recursion theory with wands of combinatorics, while chanting incantations involving complexity classes whose very names contain hundreds of characters and sear the tongues of mere mortals"
08:42:58 <ehird> like, the deal is, someone gives you some money and then they can go wherever you are and you teach them about a random esoteric topic that you haven't before, unplanned
08:43:08 <ehird> for like once a week for three months
08:43:20 <ehird> like, 10 people doing it
08:43:44 <oklofok> it'd be great, but i'm not a very good teacher :)
08:43:55 <ehird> and at the end you'd have a grasp of theundecidable asymptomatic complexity theory when applied to faux-regular metalanguages
08:43:58 <oklofok> i tend to be slightly too formal
08:44:13 <ehird> *also, only one space before the
08:44:26 <ehird> and how to bake cauliflower using only two sticks
08:44:52 <ehird> and how to use a fire to power a computer, explained with a shitload of esoteric physics
08:45:04 <ehird> and the cyclic syntactical structures of fractal systems
08:46:30 <oklofok> well, those are my areas of expertise.
08:47:08 <ehird> also, everything about graphs ever
08:49:52 <oklofok> i've read half of the material of our graph theory course (for funsies), i knew about 3/50 of the theorems beforehand
08:50:49 <oklofok> well, okay, more, but stll i wouldn't say i know *any* graph theory
08:51:00 <oklofok> i basically just know what graphs are
08:51:16 <ehird> well you'd learn it
08:51:28 <ehird> like, sitting there with a textbook
08:52:11 <oklofok> i wish they lectured the graph theory course this year too, was too busy to take it last year
08:52:32 <oklofok> yes, usually they wait a few years before repeating
08:52:45 <ehird> no i mean business.
08:53:04 <oklofok> because most students use at least 3 years for their master's
08:53:27 <oklofok> well i was pretty busy, not as busy as i am now, but anyway
08:55:37 <oklofok> there were actually a few courses i didn't take just because i thought i had enough.
08:56:05 <oklofok> which naturally bugs me to death, have to fight the urge to do the homework for those courses just because
08:57:21 <fizzie> We had a distributed computing (the theoretical aspect of it, no engineeringy things) seminar course about a book; the professor hadn't read it, and said that he just arranged the seminar course to have the students present the contents to help motivate him to read it, as well as to find the interesting parts.
08:57:31 <oklofok> which means it's game theory time
08:58:45 <ehird> game theory? more like lame theory
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09:01:31 <oklofok> the lecturer sucks though, much of what he says is incomprehensible because of his weird accent, and the homework usually lacks some of the crucial definitions, so you have to guess the question first
09:02:15 <oklofok> err, i was being on your side there
09:02:24 <ehird> for i am most tired
09:02:34 <oklofok> i finally learned to suppress a yawn
09:02:45 <oklofok> actually used the last lecture to train it
09:02:48 <ehird> i can do that, but it makes me feel like crap
09:03:05 <oklofok> but can you forget you were about to yawn
09:03:28 <oklofok> that's what i meant by suppressing, obviously anyone can just *not yawn*
09:04:04 <ehird> but can your mother
09:04:20 <oklofok> i doubt she's interested in random body control exercises.
09:04:32 <ehird> unless they involve HER GENITALIA
09:07:25 <oklofok> it'd be so cool to father you a brother
09:09:07 <oklofok> i guess i haven't understood the concept of mum jokes yet
09:09:58 <oklofok> think about it, i'd be like your stepfather, you could sit in my lap and hear stories about complexity theory
09:19:15 <oklofok> haha, my touchpad went crazy, the pointer keeps moveing randomly in circles when i touch the pad
09:19:56 <oklofok> which means buttons are almost impossible to press, because you have to press at the exact right moment
09:21:06 <ehird> nub ftw (I'm not having another clit joke incident)
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09:21:19 <ehird> disable the trackpad
09:21:28 <oklofok> i should probably restart the computer
09:21:28 <ehird> you can turn on using the numpad to mouserise
09:21:55 <oklofok> i don't have a numpad, and i know that, and i don't know where that is on vista, and i don't like using it
09:22:05 <ehird> you do, it's just fn-some letters
09:22:12 <ehird> most laptops have a numpad overlaid on fn
09:22:15 <oklofok> well sure, but that's even more annoying.
09:22:25 <ehird> but a fun challenge
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09:22:42 <oklofok> as if i like fun challenges!
09:22:52 <ehird> it's control panel -> ease of access -> change mouse works blah -> turn on mouse keys on 7 at least
09:22:56 <ehird> which is quite similar to vista
09:23:08 <ehird> also you can make it focus a window when you hover over it.
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09:41:20 <oklopol> probably should've read what you said, i'm not exactly that good at navigating without the mouse
09:41:29 <oklopol> so searching for the mouse thing was rather hard
09:41:36 <oklopol> it was under "make the mouse easier to use"
09:41:59 <ehird> "change how your mouse works" for me
09:42:22 <oklopol> i looked at the mouse options
09:42:40 <oklopol> for some reason i thought that's where mouse options would be.
09:42:57 <ehird> turn on the ctrl/shift to ac/decelerate
09:43:04 <ehird> it's painfully slow to get moving otherwise
09:43:27 <oklopol> also apart from the fact i always forget to put numlock on/off, i love this
09:43:53 <oklopol> and it's as fast as it can be now, so pressing ctrl actually makes it move too fast
09:44:01 <oklopol> should probably slow it down a bit and use ctrl
09:44:15 <oklopol> the default setting it like one pixel a sec
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09:44:55 <ehird> even at full it's slow to get moving for me
09:45:16 <ehird> also you can't change direction without losing momentum, which is annoying
09:45:36 <oklopol> at full speed + ctrl, i can't move it less than half the screen
09:46:32 <oklopol> i wish there was an ui that changed constantly
09:47:04 <oklopol> i suppose i pronounced it in finnish
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11:14:08 <ehird> [[Police 'encouraged' to hack more
11:14:10 <ehird> The Home Office has signed up to an EU strategy against cybercrime that "encourages" police across Europe to remotely access personal computers.]]
11:14:13 <ehird> one step closer to fascism
11:14:37 <ehird> the UK's politics might be better (but not by much) than America's, but our day-to-day oppression is far worse
11:19:00 <ehird> darcs install time
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13:36:25 <ehird> sigh, even in AUR it seems that arch linux has no package for the beautiful pristine Hobbit netcat, untouched by any patches
13:36:54 <ehird> I don't want IPv6, I don't want super-hardened super-ugly OpenBSD crap, I don't want whatever Debian did to it and I definitely don't want any netcat clones... just give me netcat...
13:37:15 <ehird> so I guess I'll be compiling that myself. Anyone alive? I haven't installed X yet.
13:38:54 <ehird> Guess not. I'll go install X now, and then some window manager.
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13:39:35 <fizzie> Ha, the "let's keep silent so ehird thinks the channel is empty" conspiracy succeeded magnificentiously.
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14:17:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Doesn't your fspace_vector_is_cardinal (and the same thing in vector.c) have an unnecessary test? You do x = ABS(v->x), y = ABS(v->y) and then return false if x+y != 1, which is good; but then you also return false if "x && y". At that test, you already know that x+y == 1 and both are positive integers; it's not really possible for "x && y" to be true, since then x+y would be at least 2.
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14:21:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: (And related to previous, are you sure that ABS is safe? I see you cast it to unsigned, but I doubt that really helps; abs/llabs returns something signed and the documentation for them says it's undefined behaviour if the result is not representable, which it is for the -2^(N-1) case.)
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14:56:06 <Deewiant> fizzie: The former sounds like something the optimizer might pick up on.
15:15:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, how comes you looked at that?
15:16:47 <fizzie> "Just browsing." I've been doing some jitfunge cleanup lately, just peeked a bit at your guts.
15:16:56 <fizzie> Anyway, must go to shoppery now, away.
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15:59:10 <ais523> theory: the UK TV advertising wavelengths are currently satuated with insurance price comparison website adverts
15:59:16 <ais523> so clearly, we need a price comparison comparison website
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16:04:59 <ais523> $ sudo chown -R ais523:ais523 /home/ais523/.gnupg/*
16:05:13 * ais523 wonders why that ended up set to root:root anyway
16:07:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, can you think of a better, but equally fast way?
16:07:15 <AnMaster> dropping the un-needed test of course
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16:26:41 * ais523 tries to understand Slashdot groupthink
16:26:52 <ais523> Microsoft's tests find that the worst-case upgrade time for Windows 7 is about 20 hours
16:26:57 <ais523> Slashdot accuse Microsoft of spreading FUD
16:28:05 <AnMaster> ais523, err. I thought slashdot was against windows 7
16:28:21 <ais523> although there's a strong counter-contingent that's in favour
16:28:31 <ais523> it's just, accusing Microsoft of spreading FUD about Windows is ridiculous
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16:47:01 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, I saw a laptop with a circular touchpad today
16:58:44 <AnMaster> ais523, is there any good reason to have a rectangular screen btw?
16:58:59 <ais523> it's easier to pack into memory in a quick-to-unpack way
16:59:07 <ais523> multiplicative addressing on the video RAM is pretty simple
16:59:21 <ais523> also, there are technical reasons why you'd want to make a cathode-ray-tube screen rectangualr
16:59:24 <AnMaster> ais523, polar coordinates for the pixels on screen would be kind of interesting though
16:59:34 <ais523> although they don't apply as much to CRTs
16:59:40 <AnMaster> ais523, this would not apply to LCD I guess?
16:59:57 <ais523> finally, you generally want all the pixels to be the same shape
17:00:02 <ais523> which would make a circular screen hard
17:00:18 <ais523> although it wouldn't rule out, say, hexagonal or triangluar screens
17:00:54 <AnMaster> ais523, also weren't those old radars circular?
17:01:05 <ais523> yes, because the range of the radar was circular
17:01:11 <ais523> and they didn't want to waste phosphor
17:01:29 <AnMaster> so what are those technical reasons then you mentioned?
17:01:39 <ais523> it's to do with the way that the electron beam is steered
17:01:54 <ais523> generally speaking, you can aim at a rectangular region
17:11:20 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea if there is a parallel gzip implementation?
17:11:41 <ais523> it's clearly possible, sort-of
17:11:48 <ais523> in that you could just cut the file up and zip each part separately
17:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, I meant in a way so that it can be unpacked by standard gunzip
17:13:13 <AnMaster> or parallel unpacking from standard gzip
17:13:49 <AnMaster> there is a parallel bzip2 iirc
17:16:04 <fizzie> I think it should be possible; I mean, you can do a zlib full-flush (which discards the dictionary pretty much) at any point you want, and the inflater must survive that.
17:16:22 <fizzie> It might be a bit suboptimal if you split it into too tiny pieces, though.
17:18:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the question above about better implementation of that function?
17:18:28 <AnMaster> because the current ones compiles to very good asm on x86/x86_64 at least
17:19:23 <fizzie> Well, I don't have any obviously fast one; and of course compilation is compiler-dependant.
17:20:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, in general I optimise for gcc
17:20:29 <fizzie> How does it do abs/llabs, incidentally?
17:20:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, let me check, was a while ago I last looked
17:21:56 <fizzie> If they'd stick me in front of an assembler with no Internet connection and no references available, I'd probably write something like "test rN, rN; jns .skip; neg rN; .skip:" but maybe there's something clevererer.
17:22:11 <ais523> fizzie: which dialect is that?
17:23:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, the abs() code is jump free even
17:23:49 <AnMaster> only when it gets to the actual tests are there jumps
17:23:57 <ais523> gcc-bf does abs by adding 128 and seeing if there's a carry
17:24:19 <ais523> (and you can tell if there's a carry by seeing if you go to 0 at any point during the addition loop)
17:24:57 <AnMaster> xorl (%rdi), %ecx # <variable>.x, x
17:25:03 <AnMaster> seems like the relevant code for x
17:25:12 <ais523> use sign-magnitude, then abs is trivial
17:25:52 <AnMaster> ais523, two complement is what I'm stuck with :P
17:26:03 <fizzie> ais523: Well, the ".foo" local-label was from nasm, but it's not certainly unique there. And nasm doesn't support ;s to separate instructions, I don't think, it's just that I wanted it on one line. And "rN" is standing for "rax, rbx, ..., r8, r9, ..."
17:26:19 <ais523> AnMaster: doing it in a circuit, you'd xor every bit with the top bit, then half-add the old top bit to the resutl
17:26:56 <AnMaster> ais523, mhm. That doesn't seem to make sense to me, but it works, and profiling showed it was fastest
17:27:11 <AnMaster> since it is called a lot in every ip moving, it is quite performance criticial
17:27:12 <ais523> (half-addition is like addition, but it can only add 0 or 1; and it takes exactly half the circuitry that a full adder does)
17:27:33 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, that works more or less exactly the same way as that hardware implementation I described
17:27:58 <fizzie> Yes, it's pretty nifty.
17:28:00 <AnMaster> ais523, oh I thought you were describing what the asm did?
17:28:02 <ais523> although it's using a different temporary
17:28:06 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I was working out out from scratch
17:28:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well it has to, what with the thing being passed by reference
17:28:34 <ais523> I mean, it's using a 32-bit value that's 0 or -1 as the temporary
17:28:37 <AnMaster> at least on x86_64, but probably best on x86
17:28:41 <ais523> rather than a 1-bit value that's 0 or 1
17:29:05 <ais523> but of course, 32 bits is as cheap as 1 bit on a 32-bit processor
17:29:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, what happens for the most negative case?
17:29:19 <AnMaster> you said it was undef according to docs
17:29:31 <ais523> AnMaster: returns the same value, I think
17:29:47 <ais523> also, why do you care about abs on every IP move?
17:30:14 <AnMaster> ais523, well no, not every one, but rather every wrap around,
17:30:16 <ais523> anyway, a jump-free test will be faster than a jumpy one, almost always
17:30:35 <ais523> unless the test takes the same branch almost every time
17:30:46 <ais523> mispredicted jumps require flushing the entire pipeline
17:30:56 <fizzie> ais523: There was some cautioning in the manuals not to blindly think that conditional moves and sets would be faster even though there's no jump involved.
17:31:01 <AnMaster> ais523, well, it isn't as bad on modern cpus as it was on pentium4
17:31:15 <fizzie> Or s/even though/because/ but anyway.
17:31:18 <ais523> fizzie: correct, it depends on the processor
17:31:25 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes what fizzie said, due to execution resources usage
17:33:02 <fizzie> Anyway, if it does return the same value, and then you cast that to unsigned, I think it would then turn out to be the correct 2^(N-1) unsigned number.
17:33:27 <fizzie> So it works, it just isn't guaranteed to.
17:34:03 <fizzie> I don't think many people use the largest negative delta in their programs.
17:35:19 <ais523> fizzie: and if they are, it hardly matters whether it's positive or not
17:35:25 <ais523> as you come to the same place both ways round
17:35:46 <fizzie> Yes, but "undefined behaviour" is not that limited.
17:36:50 <Deewiant> ais523: It can matter if the instruction you hit is something that depends on the delta
17:36:56 <fizzie> If you want the context; AnMaster is testing for "is this vector cardinal" by checking for abs(x) + abs(y) == 1, basically. (And the cardinality test is to use faster wrapping in that case.)
17:37:15 <ais523> Deewiant: oh, good point; but are there any non-fingerprint instructions that would care?
17:37:37 <ais523> y couldn't report the abs value of the most negative int
17:37:37 <Deewiant> [ and ] come to mind, but they just shunt the problem one instruction ahead.
17:37:49 <ais523> yes, and [ and ] just leave you back in the previous situation
17:37:50 <Deewiant> y reports the delta, so that's one.
17:38:02 <ais523> Deewiant: except, Befunge has no representation for INT_MAX+1
17:38:11 <ais523> so it would have to report the negative value
17:38:29 <AnMaster> hm. y wouldn't use the is cardinal test
17:38:42 <ais523> how often do people use wrapping in Befunge-98 programs, by the way?
17:38:59 <AnMaster> because it may be the shortest way
17:39:11 <ais523> Befunge-93 needs it quite a bit; in Befunge-98, though, it would tend to make programs less extensible
17:39:20 <Deewiant> ais523: {, which sets the storage offset to position + delta?
17:39:20 <AnMaster> ais523, and almost all the time it is cardinal wrapping
17:39:28 <AnMaster> because non-cardinal wrapping is such a pain
17:39:40 <ais523> Deewiant: comes to the same location both ways round
17:39:43 <Deewiant> But no, that brings you back to the same point as well
17:39:51 <fizzie> Incidentally, have you tried to give GCC the logical condition what you want -- something like "(x == 0 && (y == 1 || y == -1)) ||(y == 0 && (x == 1 ||x == -1))" -- and see what it optimizes to? It might be a bit too complicated-and-explicit to yield something extremely clever, but you never know.
17:40:31 <Deewiant> ais523: Then no, I don't think there are any outside fingerprints.
17:41:00 <ais523> x*y == 1 seems like an obvious way to do that
17:41:28 <ais523> hmm... although n*2^32+1 isn't prime for all n, so you'd have to make sure it didn't carry
17:41:35 <ais523> also, multiplication can be slow
17:41:38 <ais523> depending on the processor
17:41:54 <fizzie> Er... given that in all true cases either x or y is zero, I don't see how x*y == 1 tests for it.
17:41:57 <Asztal> you mean x*y == 0 && (y*y+x*x == 1)?
17:42:04 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Incidentally, have you tried to give GCC the logical condition what you want -- something like "(x == 0 && (y == 1 || y == -1)) || (y == 0 && (x == 1 || x == -1))" -- and see what it optimizes to? It might be a bit too complicated-and-explicit to yield something extremely clever, but you never know. <-- iirc it was something with lots of jumps
17:43:39 <ais523> Asztal: oh, good point, that's probably slowr
17:43:59 <fizzie> Speaking of wrapping, it's awful in jitfunge, since when you go and 'p' something outside the existing space bounds, I'll have to reconsider all traces that have wrapped that way, to see if they'd have instead hit whatever you put there.
17:45:23 <fizzie> It's a bit of the same hassle with ;; jumps -- compiled traces containing those need to care if someone puts a semicolon inside there.
17:45:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can easily think of programs where even CCBI will beat jitfunge
17:45:41 <AnMaster> I mean, the worst case scenarios seems rather bad
17:45:58 <ais523> adding a single semicolon between two existing semicolons strikes me as very bad coding practice
17:46:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what would the point even be?
17:46:24 <Deewiant> Commenting out code at runtime
17:46:28 <fizzie> Yes, for a Funge program it might well be an awesome way to redirect some code to go completely differently.
17:47:22 <fizzie> I don't think heavy self-modification will ever be very fast with jitfunge. It'd need a bit more heuristics that I want to implement to realize things like "okay, now you're messing around too much with this area, I'll just fall back to interpreting here and skip the JITting".
17:47:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, which adds some overhead of tracking that
17:48:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw I thought about an interesting different way to beat slowdown
17:48:36 <AnMaster> it wouldn't be sane for other purposes though
17:48:55 <AnMaster> basically, make your value column indexed
17:48:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, to win the fight against the final boss in slowdown.
17:49:17 <Deewiant> I added a boss? My bad, I'll fix that
17:49:21 <AnMaster> this would work for cardinal workaround
17:49:38 <AnMaster> haven't worked out details for non-cardinal yet
17:49:57 <ais523> AnMaster: why not have a flag saying whether the IP is cardinal or not
17:50:01 <ais523> that every delta-changing command sets?
17:50:08 <ais523> would that be faster or slower
17:50:17 <AnMaster> ais523, that happens a lot more often than wraparound though in general
17:50:29 <AnMaster> so it sounds to me like a clear pessimiation
17:50:37 <ais523> which would just be setting the flag to a known value
17:50:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I use x a lot in my own code though.
17:51:06 <fizzie> I think I read somewhere that TraceMonkey keeps execution counters for JavaScript statements, and only JITs "hot" spots.
17:51:19 <ais523> AnMaster: I doubt x is more common than wraparound
17:52:14 <AnMaster> ais523, worth a try when I have time. I really was just looking for fixing the bug today, because I'm busy with uni currently
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17:56:19 <fizzie> I guess C doesn't specify what the unary - will do to INT_MIN on a system where |INT_MAX| < |INT_MIN|? What with being so tight-lipped about signed integer wrap-around in general.
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18:44:08 <Ilari> Also, aren't most signed overflows undefined behaviour?
18:44:56 <oerjan> AnMaster: read it hours ago
18:45:49 <Ilari> My guess about what -INT_MIN will do if |INT_MAX| < |INT_MIN| is 'undefined behavour'.
18:46:05 <oerjan> huh, google seems down
18:46:13 <fizzie> Yes, that is the reasonable guess.
18:46:57 <Ilari> For what it would do in pracice, I would guess -INT_MIN => INT_MIN.
18:47:32 <AnMaster> <oerjan> huh, google seems down <-- works here?
18:47:33 <ais523> INT_MIN is in limits.h, I think
18:47:36 * oerjan doesn't really remember enough C to know what to import
18:47:41 <ais523> which might not be in the standard headers
18:47:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: worked on second try, probably temporary glitch
18:47:59 <AnMaster> ais523, it is in the _C_ standard headers
18:48:12 <ais523> yes, but I meant EgoBot's
18:48:28 <fizzie> Heh, I just graduated today; and had to harass people over IRC to find out that fact. (Typically they send the email announcements out the same day, but for some reason today they didn't bother. Well, maybe I'll get the email tomorrow.)
18:48:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, I liked sqrt(-garfield) too
18:48:47 <ais523> and have you got your post-graduation application off in time?
18:48:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: i found the lower left panel hard to read :D
18:49:08 <oerjan> fortunately there was the script
18:49:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, and the link to the original
18:49:23 <fizzie> ais523: No hurry for that, the deadlines are just this Wednesday and Friday. :p
18:50:07 <fizzie> (They're pretty much written, though, I've just kept them waiting to find out whether I actually am a graduate or not.)
18:51:53 <oerjan> <ais523> so clearly, we need a price comparison comparison website
18:52:12 * oerjan would say yo dawg, but thinks that meme has died now
18:53:19 <oerjan> <ais523> $ sudo chown -R ais523:ais523 /home/ais523/.gnupg/*
18:53:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, all your yo dawg is dead
18:53:32 * oerjan suddenly realizes there needs to be a chowder command
18:53:34 <ais523> oerjan: are you going to point out that the /* is redundant?
18:53:48 <AnMaster> * oerjan suddenly realizes there needs to be a chowder command <-- what?
18:54:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: there's chown, there needs to chowder
18:54:16 <ais523> although, as far as I know, there aren't nested dotfiles in that hierarchy
18:54:23 <AnMaster> dot files *inside* a dot directory is evil though
18:55:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, chown, chmod, what would "chowder" be?
18:55:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: i just like chowder and thinks it deserves a command
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18:56:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, what the hell is "owder"?
18:56:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: i have .www/.htaccess~
18:56:22 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's nothing, but "chowder" is something.
18:56:29 <fizzie> Perl has "chomp", though it doesn't really change the omp-ness of anything.
18:56:37 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:56:39 <HackEgo> * a thick soup or stew made with milk and bacon and onions and potatoes \ [22]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * Chowder is an American animated television series that debuted on Cartoon Network on November 2, 2007. ...
18:56:53 <AnMaster> Definitions of chowder on the Web:
18:56:53 <AnMaster> a thick soup or stew made with milk and bacon and onions and potatoes
18:56:53 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
18:57:14 <AnMaster> damn, I should check if anyone else written anything when I switch back from the browser window
18:57:18 * oerjan notes AnMaster is not yet one with HackEgo
19:08:57 <Ilari> Some would think: potatoes => Fail.
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19:13:26 <Ilari> AnMaster: Too much carbohydrates in potato. And it isn't that good source of various micronutrients anyway...
19:14:06 <fizzie> But it's a potato! They're just so awesomely round.
19:14:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, err, no, they are knobbly
19:14:49 <fizzie> And gerund. Wait, no, not that.
19:15:26 <fizzie> Rincewind likes potatoes. :p
19:15:59 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
19:16:09 <fizzie> fungot: What says you about potatoes?
19:16:10 <fungot> fizzie: the fnord abbot folded his wrinkled hands and addressed lu-tze, one of those little uncertain laughs a man laughs who is unsure that he's not likeable. you couldn't help loving someone as soppy as that.
19:17:27 <Ilari> Markov generator? That seems so "reality shifted by 90 degrees"...
19:17:27 <fizzie> testlm-disk says about "potatoes are": potatoes are inherently evil.
19:18:20 <fizzie> Well, a generative n-gram model. Certainly you could formulate that in the Markov framework.
19:18:34 <fungot> AnMaster: glod gave buddy a lopsided look. " er. even the common people?' ' up here?' goodmountain, grimacing, balancing himself on two sticks.
19:19:05 <fizzie> I can't get it to say anything nice about potatoes. :/
19:19:08 <fungot> AnMaster: " we should always remember the songs he never had the patience to acquire it. just fnord" brutha began. and then, comrades, we must get...
19:19:13 <fizzie> They're always just evil and black.
19:19:40 <fizzie> "potatoes are there? iteration is where it's at"
19:19:53 <AnMaster> fungot, you do seem to pick one book that is easy to see in each, plus a bit of "garbage"
19:19:54 <fungot> AnMaster: ' he just looks as though they were, you know, that thing is in fnord of the
19:20:21 <fungot> AnMaster: " anyway, strong drink is a mocker, you know, i'm really rather pleased," said
19:22:12 <fizzie> I'm not sure where I had the source texts.
19:23:51 <fungot> FireFly: ' old boots muttered the manager. ' old boots... old boots.'
19:24:28 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to be directly from much anything.
19:24:39 <fizzie> Well, *that's* from Hogfather, I would say.
19:28:23 <AnMaster> is there any non-recursive definition of fibonacci's sequence?
19:29:59 <fizzie> There's that golden-ratio based one.
19:30:08 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence#Closed_form_expression
19:30:30 <fizzie> You can also find it by typing a couple of the first Fib numbers to the online encyclopedia of integer youknowwhats.
19:31:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, uh no I don't know what it is
19:31:22 <Deewiant> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/
19:33:38 <fizzie> I think we did the derivation of that in the generating-functions course.
19:33:42 <Ilari> There's even standard method of getting "closed" formula for any sequence of form a_n = sum(b_k * a_{n-k}, k, 1, N), a_x given for 1 <= x <= N.
19:35:20 <Ilari> For 1 <= N <= 4, it results true closed formula. For higher N, one would need higher functions.
19:35:50 <oerjan> Ilari: that's just because you cannot solve quintics, i presume?
19:36:05 <oerjan> so it is still closed given the actual roots of the polynomial...
19:36:43 <oerjan> except there was some subtlety when the polynomial had duplicate roots
19:36:57 <Ilari> Yup. It involves solving roots of Nth degree polynomial.
19:38:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: basically you take the polynomial equation x^n = sum(b_k * x^n) and solve that. then every function of the form f(n) = x^n is a solution to the original recursion
19:38:48 <oerjan> so for fibonacci you get x^2 = x + 1
19:39:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, sum... what is written over and under the sum sign here?
19:39:17 <AnMaster> or is that not what your sum() does?
19:39:24 <fizzie> It looks like \sum_{k=1}^N b_k ...
19:39:46 <fizzie> At least that's what I'd intuitively read it as.
19:40:14 <oerjan> x^N = sum(b_k * x^n) i meant
19:41:09 <fizzie> oerjan: That still leaves "n" a bit unclear, actually, if the sum index is just k.
19:41:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: then, assuming the polynomial has N distinct roots (which might be complex), you can then compose every other solution to the recursion with linear algebra summing those x^n solutions
19:41:55 <oerjan> x^N = sum(b_k * x^k), last try :D
19:43:04 <oerjan> if some roots are not distinct, there is a trick to get extra functions for the duplicate roots but i'm not quite sure what it was
19:43:45 <oerjan> it may have been something as simple as n*x^n
19:44:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is: x^{N}=\sum_{k=1}^{N}b_{k}\times x^{k}
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19:45:15 <AnMaster> the extra {} comes from that I was using lyx, due to not remembering exactly how the \sum one worked
19:45:42 <AnMaster> <fizzie> It looks like \sum_{k=1}^N b_k ...
19:45:45 <AnMaster> <oerjan> (with fizzie's bounds
19:45:49 <oerjan> or maybe make that first x^{N+1}
19:45:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, so not his bounds then?
19:46:44 <fizzie> My bounds were for a different sum, actually.
19:46:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's essentially just the equation which a function f(n) = x^n needs to satisfy to solve the recursion
19:47:27 <fizzie> Ilari's "a_n = sum(...)", which makes sense as $a_n = \sum_{k=1}^N b_k * a_{n-k}$.
19:47:56 <fizzie> Coefficients from the recursion; b_1 = b_2 = 1 for Fibonacci.
19:47:59 <oerjan> AnMaster: the coefficients for the recursive linear equation you are trying to solve
19:48:35 <fizzie> Or, well, b_0 = b_1 = 0 for oerjan's sum, again.
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19:49:45 <oerjan> actually it is definitely best to start with x^0 as the lowest, otherwise you get a spurious x = 0 solution
19:51:03 <oerjan> *lowest x power in the sum
19:52:02 <oerjan> (well not strictly spurious, it's just trivial)
19:53:00 <fizzie> Incidentally, if you want to use the same bounds and b_k subscripts as in the recursion-defining $a_n = \sum_{k=1}^N b_k a_{n-k}$ up there, would your polynomial go $x^N = \sum_{k=1}^N b_k x^{N-k}$ too?
19:54:06 * oerjan should learn to read some day
19:54:52 <oerjan> actually that recursion definition should have $a_N = , shouldn't it
19:54:57 <AnMaster> <oerjan> oh you have a minus <oerjan> er subtraction <-- what is wrong with the first term for it?
19:55:18 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's just trying to say a_n = b_1 a_{n-1} + b_2 a_{n-2} + ... there.
19:55:39 <oerjan> fizzie: maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe
19:55:41 <AnMaster> now this decided to pass over my head
19:56:12 <fizzie> It's just notationally squibbles, really.
19:56:25 <oerjan> AnMaster: ok there's just some confusion because n and N are really the same up there
19:56:58 <fizzie> No, they're not; it's the recursive definition given for any a_n, while N is the number of coefficients.
19:57:14 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes that explains a bit of it
19:57:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: scratch that
19:58:44 <oerjan> ok, then a_{n-k} becomes x^{N-k} etc.
19:58:52 <AnMaster> still confused. Anyway I don't think I need it, except for fib
19:59:08 <fizzie> What do you need a closed-form fib for?
19:59:28 <AnMaster> hm is the square root of *any* prime an irrational number? or is it just square root of 2?
19:59:39 <oerjan> AnMaster: for bit, a_n = a_{n-1} + a_{n-2} becomes x^2 = x + 1
20:00:24 * oerjan wonders what that came from
20:00:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, assignment is "implement a less stupid than naive fib algorithms", this is obviously geared against dynamic programming or whatever the term is.
20:01:16 <AnMaster> however, that is WAY to obvious
20:01:26 <oerjan> AnMaster: really, just set a_n = x^n and substitute
20:02:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, how did one kind out b_k now again? it was coefficients right. I suspect there may be a language barrier here..
20:02:50 <fizzie> I don't think there's anything especially stupid in the naive iterative Fibonacci; the unmemoized tree-recursion might be pushing it a bit, though.
20:02:57 <oerjan> koeffisienter is perfectly valid in norwegian ;D
20:03:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was the case here that was given to design a better one than
20:03:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: another efficient way of doing fibonacci uses matrix multiplication
20:03:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, koefficienter? Well I know about that, but not in the context of recursive definitions
20:04:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, got a link or something?
20:04:17 <AnMaster> oh wait it is there on wikipedia
20:04:41 <oerjan> f(n) = [[1 1] [0 1]]^n [1 1] modulo probably serious off-by-one errors
20:04:53 <AnMaster> um... we haven't got to "eigenvalues" yet, they are later in the course
20:05:26 <AnMaster> and I haven't been able to successfully figure it out myself from wikipedia
20:05:32 <oerjan> you don't eigenvalues to multiply matrices or take their powers
20:05:52 <oerjan> the eigenvalue thing is just another path to that x^n method, i think
20:06:17 <AnMaster> still, so far all we have done with matrixes has been the gauss/whatever-the-guy-was method for solving linear equation systems
20:07:04 <AnMaster> oh "Augmented matrix" is the English term
20:07:11 <AnMaster> it's "utökad matris" in Swedish
20:07:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: see the place in "Matrix form" section where it says closed form
20:07:54 <fizzie> Wikipedia flat-out gives you the F_{2n-1} and F_{2n} formulas, which I guess are what you'd get from the matrix power and a square-and-multiply exponentiation. (This is really a guess, I don't feel like thinking.)
20:10:28 <oerjan> you can essentially calculate F_n from the binary expansion of n (might be a bit off-by-one there since it's F_{2n-1})
20:10:43 <oerjan> mind you, F_n still grows exponentially
20:12:21 <oerjan> i know it can work because we implemented it in lambdabot in #haskell a couple of times
20:12:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, what about a non-exponential-to-calculate one?
20:12:51 <fizzie> Or to say the same thing in another way, but since I already had this thing mostly written: with those formulas, given F_n and F_{n-1} (okay, and F_{n+1}, but that's just their sum), you should be able to calculate F_{2n} and F_{2n-1} and use that to get F_{4n} and F_{4n-1} and so on; much like you can utilize x, x^2, x^4, x^8 you get from squaring things to compute any x^n.
20:13:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: er the _size_ of F_n is exponential in n, you're not going to get away from that is what i am saying
20:13:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah right. Where F is the sequence itself? (forgot if it was was upper or lower case f that was fib)
20:14:12 <oerjan> i haven't even bothered to get the notation right ;)
20:14:33 <oerjan> well, wikipedia uses F_n
20:17:21 <AnMaster> how comes you never see notation like: a < b > c ? (to say that b is bigger than both a and c, but not saying if a or c is largest)
20:17:31 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Another_identity seems like the most relevant section
20:17:34 <AnMaster> hm that would be same as a =< b < c
20:18:55 <Ilari> BTW: Eigenvalues are closely associated with groups of linear diffrential equations.
20:19:37 <AnMaster> Ilari, I don't think we got to the differential ones yet
20:20:01 <oerjan> Ilari: this fibonacci stuff is essentially linear _difference_ equations, and there are many analogies between the theories iirc
20:20:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, well it is in the chapter on "recursion and induction"
20:21:02 <Ilari> Basically, x is eigenvalue of matrix X if (xI - X)Y = 0 has nontrivial solutions (Y is not 0). Which is equivalent to det(xI - X) = 0.
20:21:05 <oerjan> hm or wait am i confusing it
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20:21:42 <AnMaster> Ilari, where did the I in xI come from?
20:21:51 <oerjan> I is the identity matrix
20:21:55 <Ilari> AnMaster: I is identity matrix of apporiate size.
20:22:24 <ais523> why is #esoteric talking about eigenstructure?
20:22:26 <AnMaster> I think that is listed in the course description for November
20:24:03 <oerjan> <AnMaster> how comes you never see notation like: a < b > c <-- i think it's because you usually try to keep chains of relational operators somewhat transitive
20:24:16 <oerjan> you would say a, c < b instead
20:24:36 <oerjan> or b > a, c perhaps more likely
20:24:54 <fizzie> oerjan: "<oerjan> AnMaster: er the _size_ of F_n is exponential in n --"; the value of F_n grows exponentially, but does the *size* of it, really? I mean, F_n is something like φ^n, and the size of the decimal representation of 10^n is obviously linear in n, and yet 10^n > φ^n. Well, okay, maybe that was just a different definition of "size".
20:24:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, well, the first one looks nicer
20:25:09 <Ilari> If one uses multiply row and add to other to reduce the matrix to upper triangular form, the determinant is product of numbers in main diagonal in triangular form.
20:25:24 <oerjan> fizzie: i didn't want to mention that :D
20:25:50 <AnMaster> it made more sense than most other stuff so far
20:25:51 <fizzie> You could put "a" and "c" on top of each other, and next to a very large "< b".
20:25:53 <oerjan> however, f(n) is also exponential in n, and the size of f(n) is exponential in the size of n
20:26:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would look like a/c < b but someone forgot the _
20:26:19 <oerjan> the latter would be the relevant thing in complexity theory
20:27:23 <fizzie> In the very happy case your variables are a, b, e instead, you could use " < b"; but maybe that's a bit limiting.
20:27:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, ooh that would be another nice notation: for a < b < c: <small>a</small> <medium>b</medium> <large>c</large>
20:28:52 <AnMaster> also not sure how to differentiate =< and ==
20:29:34 <ais523> INTERCAL has had this idea already
20:29:39 <ais523> you can combine '. into !
20:30:11 <ais523> which is great, as ' is a paren character (nearly always opening paren in that context, although could theoretically be closing), and . is a sigil
20:30:47 <AnMaster> ais523, and what is the sigil for ?
20:31:08 <ais523> AnMaster: it means "16-bit scalar variable"
20:31:17 <fizzie> LaTeX gives you ten official sizes; \tiny, \scriptsize, \footnotesize, \small, \normalsize, \large, \Large, \LARGE, \huge and \Huge. (For some reason \HUGE is not listed; maybe it would be overkill.) Unfortunately those don't work in math mode.
20:31:22 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, wasn't the name one-spot?
20:31:24 <ais523> and there's no statement but comments in which .' isn't a syntax error
20:31:36 <ais523> those are the names of the sigil
20:31:44 <ais523> and by extension-of the types
20:31:51 <ais523> "sigil"'s a general programming language concept
20:31:55 <ais523> just like "variable", or "identifier"
20:32:22 <fizzie> Ooh, Wordnet doesn't know about "sigil". Shameful.
20:32:34 <ais523> strange, as it has a non-programming meaning too
20:32:38 <fizzie> Perl's $s, @s and %s are sigils, anyway.
20:32:56 <AnMaster> so why would wordnet NOT know it?
20:32:58 <ais523> interestingly, http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sigil doesn't have the programming meaning
20:33:04 <AnMaster> I mean, it isn't very uncommon
20:33:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the programming meaning?
20:33:21 <AnMaster> I know the non-programming meaning
20:33:25 <ais523> AnMaster: a character used to introduce a variable name
20:33:33 <ais523> often in a hungarian-notation style, but enforced by the language
20:33:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: <fizzie> Perl's $s, @s and %s are sigils, anyway.
20:33:49 <AnMaster> well, it is generally irritating unless shell
20:33:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but I don't KNOW perl
20:34:02 <oerjan> yay spam on the esolang forum
20:34:12 <ais523> I keep forgetting the esolang forum exists
20:34:17 <fizzie> I assume everyone's seen *that* much of Perl.
20:34:20 <ais523> (and I'm not an admin there, so reporting it to me doesn't really help)
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20:34:38 <ais523> AnMaster: how good are you at reading programs in languages you don't understand?
20:34:38 <oerjan> ais523: i got better after i subscribed to the rss
20:34:50 <ais523> I mean, not counting esolangs
20:34:51 <oerjan> although it's still months between posts
20:34:53 <AnMaster> ais523, depends on what language it is. if it is APL or K, or J: Not at all
20:35:05 <oerjan> ais523: i don't know who is an admin there, perhaps only graue
20:35:16 <ais523> there's a continuum, probably
20:35:27 <ais523> more or less anyone could read correctly-indented unobfuscated Lua, for instance
20:35:36 <ais523> but Perl's rather harder, due to its huge density
20:35:36 <AnMaster> ais523, C like? probably quite ok. Same for lisp-like. Haskell? Nop, perl neither.
20:35:42 <ais523> as in, you can say a lot in a few characters
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20:35:48 <AnMaster> but that seems uncommon for one-liners
20:35:59 <AnMaster> as for python, I know it a bit
20:36:11 <fizzie> There's a lot of Perl written that's pretty much like "shell script, except with regexps".
20:36:20 <fizzie> One-liners are a special breed though.
20:36:25 <ais523> AnMaster: http://ais523.sartak.org/TAEB-AI-Planar/lib/TAEB/AI/Planar.pm is a Perl file I've written that aims to be clear rather than obfuscated
20:36:29 <ais523> well, mostly me, sorear has a fwe patches there
20:37:10 <ais523> it's designed for downloading via darcs, rather than viewing online
20:37:20 <ais523> AnMaster: TAEB's lead maintainer
20:37:27 <ais523> who came up with the idea in the first place, and wrote quite a bit of the code
20:37:50 <AnMaster> ais523, what does "extends" do? kate's perl mode doesn't think it is a key word for example
20:38:02 <ais523> it's sugar for object-orientation
20:38:14 <ais523> it isn't part of the core lang at all
20:38:15 <AnMaster> ais523, brb phone, will take a few minutes
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21:38:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I just saw something funny:
21:38:56 <AnMaster> someone quoting "click" in the context of "link"
21:39:58 <AnMaster> (to be exact, the site with info for the local busses)
21:42:25 <AnMaster> 'Here you can see our time tables. "Click" on the time table on the left that you are interested in. You need Acrobat Reader to view the time tables.'
21:43:25 <AnMaster> I would say it is definitely a Swedish word that isn't uncommon, and hasn't been during the last 10 years or so
21:44:00 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://www.lanstrafiken.se/template/ResePlanerareUnder____2565.aspx
21:44:39 <FireFly> I read it as "someone writing 'click' instead of 'link'"
21:44:54 <AnMaster> FireFly, no I just find it funny to use quotes around that word
21:45:06 <FireFly> heh, yeah, well I wouldn't do that at least
21:46:36 <oerjan> i suppose you "wouldn't"
21:46:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, I fail to see anything wrong with "wouldn't"
21:47:21 <AnMaster> rather than pointing out some error
21:48:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, you can only take a pun so far before it becomes "lame"
21:49:51 <AnMaster> though, that maybe should have been "false"
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21:50:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, it seems they go out of their way to make it accessible, except those features are broken without javascript
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21:50:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: you do realize that after the first couple of lines it's your reaction that makes it funny to continue, right?
21:51:22 <AnMaster> oh and why the hell would you provide a sign language version of a web page?
21:51:29 <AnMaster> audio version yes. but sign language?
21:51:46 <ais523> AnMaster: what does a sign language webpage look like?
21:51:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I haven't clicked on the link yet
21:52:18 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a link to a *.mov and *.wmv
21:52:49 <AnMaster> ok it is just someone talking the stuff in sign language it seems. Don't understand that of course
22:00:54 <AnMaster> hm, ok I have a theory: 1) they also provide the travel service for disabled people (anyone from US will have no clue what this is about) 2) This city is some sort of national center for higher education for deaf people
22:01:01 <AnMaster> perhaps there is some logic behind all this
22:04:24 <AnMaster> ais523, that Planar.pm, what does it do?
22:04:39 <AnMaster> I mean, it seems to need to fit into a much larger context to make sense
22:04:45 <AnMaster> it doesn't make sense stand-alone
22:06:15 <AnMaster> use constant veto_travel => 0; <-- huh?
22:06:24 <ais523> what's the huh for there?
22:06:29 <ais523> it simply creates a constant
22:06:36 <ais523> it's sugar for sub veto_travel { 0; }
22:06:38 <AnMaster> ais523, is this travel with level teleport?
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22:06:58 <AnMaster> ais523, plus, what does the "use" mean
22:07:42 <ais523> and use constant imports constant.pm
22:07:46 <AnMaster> TAEB->config->get_ai_config->{'overall_plan'} // 'SlowDescent'; <-- that fucked syntax highlighting in kate, at the second / everything is green
22:07:48 <ais523> which is responsible for doing the sugar
22:07:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a 5.10ism
22:08:08 <ais523> // is a new operator in Perl 5.10
22:08:27 <ais523> replaces undef with the given value, has no effect on anything else
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22:08:46 <ais523> i.e. if the left argument doesn't have a value, return the right argument
22:08:50 <ais523> otherwise return the left argument
22:08:54 <AnMaster> ais523, who thought such an operator was a good idea?
22:09:06 <ais523> I don't know; but it is a useful operator
22:09:14 <ais523> for doing things like default values
22:09:26 <ais523> and not quite sugar, it avoids having to use a temporary var
22:09:30 * oerjan thinks he wanted that // recently (ironically for the /// interpreter) but didn't know about it
22:09:32 <ais523> or write the left argument out twice
22:10:00 <AnMaster> traits => [qw/TAEB::AI::Planar::Meta::Trait::DontFreeze/],
22:10:04 <oerjan> i worked around it though :)
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22:10:40 <AnMaster> ais523, also what does the whole module thing do? implement some sort of strategy for this nethack bot?
22:10:48 <ais523> AnMaster: when freezing state, don't freeze that
22:10:56 <ais523> and yes, that's one of the modules doing the strategy for TAEB
22:11:16 <ais523> AnMaster: as in, continuations but on disk
22:11:36 <ais523> so you can exit the program, load it again, and it's in the same state again
22:11:48 <AnMaster> on tape or other long term storage media I guess it would be "freeze dried" even
22:13:12 <AnMaster> ais523, why is most stuff not stored?
22:13:24 <AnMaster> plus there seems to be an awful lot of repetition here
22:13:27 <ais523> it's stuff like caches that can be reconstructed anyway
22:14:15 <AnMaster> there is lots of complete copies, or very similiar entries to:
22:14:17 <AnMaster> isa => 'HashRef[ArrayRef[TAEB::AI::Planar::Plan]]',
22:14:17 <AnMaster> traits => [qw/TAEB::AI::Planar::Meta::Trait::DontFreeze/],
22:14:34 <AnMaster> surely this can be simplified in some way?
22:15:12 <ais523> yes, it could be, but it would be less clear
22:15:21 <ais523> you could generate the code at runtime, for instance
22:15:35 <ais523> several bits of TAEB actually do that, but it grates against my typical programming style
22:17:46 <AnMaster> "this can lead to inaccurate results sometimes when our resource levels change" <-- eh?
22:19:41 <AnMaster> ais523, "Phasers can walk anywhere." <-- is that true for all levels? Such as sokoban?
22:19:52 <ais523> no, it's an approximation for monster routing
22:20:01 <ais523> which has to be simple
22:20:09 <ais523> for efficiency reasons
22:20:17 <ais523> as in, we're trying to predict where enemy monsters will go
22:20:36 <ais523> and it's better to guess wrong in a way that gives the monsters more places to move to, than one that doesn't
22:20:41 <AnMaster> ais523, how much slowdown is caused by, say, perl?
22:20:53 <AnMaster> also why does it have to be fast? nethack is turn based
22:21:06 <ais523> so it can be tested in a reasonable amount of time
22:25:55 <AnMaster> ais523, where are the tactical plans listed?
22:26:23 <ais523> AnMaster: in a load of other modules
22:26:25 <ais523> that's just one of them
22:26:39 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, is this a tactical plan itself?
22:26:59 <ais523> it's a Perl module, the plans are something entirely different
22:27:05 <ais523> they're objects of classes defined in other modules
22:27:10 <AnMaster> <ais523> that's just one of them <-- was the bit that confused me
22:27:16 <ais523> that's just one of the modules
22:27:32 <AnMaster> ais523, so how many tactical plans are there?
22:28:11 <ais523> there are both tactical and strategic plans
22:28:52 <AnMaster> ais523, what sort of things are the strategic ones?
22:28:55 <ais523> including a few files that are not plans in themselves, but libraries used by plans
22:29:20 <ais523> see http://ais523.sartak.org/TAEB-AI-Planar/lib/TAEB/AI/Planar/Plan/
22:29:24 <ais523> for a list of both sorts of plans
22:29:31 <AnMaster> ais523, also why dislike levitation?
22:29:44 <ais523> things like SlowDescent are strategic; things like Walk are tactical
22:29:50 <ais523> and because lots of things can't be done while levitating
22:30:03 <ais523> and you need to recognise that fact in order to avoid getting stuck in an infinite loop
22:30:05 <AnMaster> ais523, levitation is still very useful
22:30:24 <AnMaster> say, getting up from below castle
22:30:29 <AnMaster> you don't want to fall down again
22:30:32 <ais523> AnMaster: yes... but, say you want to pick an item up
22:30:39 <ais523> you /need to know/ that you can't pick up items while levitating
22:30:45 <ais523> to a bot, you have to tell it
22:31:08 <ais523> and the talking about levitating is to tell it that
22:31:53 <ais523> AnMaster: read http://taeb-blog.sartak.org/2009/08/planar-taeb-ai.html for the explanation of how the code works
22:42:23 <fizzie> Nethack AI has long been on the list of possible topics on the Prolog course, I think; I'm not aware of anyone attempting it, though.
22:43:36 <ais523> fizzie: I'm attempting it
22:44:29 <fizzie> Yes, but on the course, I mean.
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23:27:15 <ais523> hmm... it seems Novell ported Mono to the iPhone
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23:35:48 <GregorR> Does that imply that one could write software for iShit without the iShit SDK?
23:37:00 * oerjan recalls reading that Apple won't accept any app which can run another program
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23:38:33 <coppro> like the C64 emulator THAT RUNS BASIC OMG
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23:48:03 <GregorR> Yeah, I recall that too, but I thought you were implying the contrary.
23:48:10 <GregorR> But I guess Apple's douchebaggery knows no bounds.
23:48:22 <oerjan> ehird: how can you sleep in a well? isn't that awfully wet?
23:48:40 <ehird> aWell, well, well. What have we here. Some questions?
23:48:50 <ehird> GregorR: hurf durf
23:50:43 <ehird> 13:49:42 <AnMaster> 1> true == "true".
23:50:43 <ehird> 13:49:42 <AnMaster> false
23:50:43 <ehird> otoh, [116,114,117,101]=="true", and lists stringify as strings depending on if they're ascii or not
23:51:11 <ehird> must be nice changing [116, 114, 117, 3]'s last element to 101 and getting back "true"
23:52:26 <ehird> 14:08:54 <AnMaster> ais523, who thought such an operator was a good idea?
23:52:36 <ehird> it's "default the former to the latter"
23:52:39 <ehird> which is a good operation
23:52:47 <ehird> defaults when unavailable are a Good Thing
23:52:52 <ehird> and // encapsulates that
23:53:34 <coppro> ehird: you can call a function that prints it as a numerical list I think
23:53:47 <ehird> who cares, that default behaviour is fucked up :)
23:54:07 <ais523> ehird: which lang is that list example in?
23:54:17 <ehird> strings are lists of numbers
23:54:28 <ehird> but all lists with ascii printable contents stringify as strings
23:54:32 <coppro> and the interpreter prints them in strings if it can, in numbers otherwise
23:54:33 <ais523> "lists stringify as strings"
23:54:40 <ais523> depending on if they're ASCII?
23:54:43 <ehird> ais523: [97,98] shows as "ab"
23:54:44 <coppro> that's just the default printing
23:54:47 <ehird> I haven't seen anything like Erlang's lists-are-magically-strings in another language
23:54:52 <ehird> I think I'll call it magic-typing
23:55:02 <ehird> this list MAGICALLY becomes a string!
23:55:08 <coppro> they aren't; lists and strings are the same consturct
23:55:08 <ehird> oops, it's back again... magically
23:55:21 <coppro> it just changes how it's shown
23:56:53 <ehird> 13:44:00 <AnMaster> FireFly, http://www.lanstrafiken.se/template/ResePlanerareUnder____2565.aspx
23:57:05 <ehird> my eyes are really soothed by the colour scheme there...
23:57:09 <ehird> they just really like it
23:57:17 <ehird> well, mainly the header
23:58:00 <ehird> yeah don't they know it's just Adobe Reader now??????????????????? :P
23:58:43 <ehird> 15:35:48 <GregorR> Does that imply that one could write software for iShit without the iShit SDK?
23:58:43 <ehird> the SDK isn't shit... although what you said didn't imply that anyway
23:59:04 <ehird> i mean objective-c/cocoa is pretty okayrad
23:59:57 <ehird> i don't want to say rad because i haven't used it for anything myself, but the general consensus is that it's rad, and what i've read seems awesome
00:00:04 <ehird> but i'm pretty sure that it's at least okay, compared to other toolkits
00:00:12 <ehird> it's a very lukewarm opinion
00:00:22 <ehird> but implies... something greater...
00:01:37 <coppro> my thoughts on Obj-C are pretty meh
00:01:37 <ehird> "And so at 18 years of age, I moved from my tiny town of 800 people, changed my gender, moved to a new city, and tried to start a new life. I think I am failing (IAmA)."
00:01:41 <ehird> I've got to wonder how the gender part fits in here
00:01:52 <coppro> clearly to erase eir identity
00:01:58 <ehird> ...although consciously changing your *gender* has to be some new superpower I've never heard of
00:02:07 <ehird> i've only heard of correcting your sex to match your gender :-P
00:03:11 <coppro> the terms aren't that well-defined
00:03:22 <ehird> gender is mental, sex is physical
00:03:45 <ehird> transgender is sex/gender mismatch, transsexual is prior sex/gender mismatch corrected by sex change
00:04:07 <ehird> the text makes it clear it's just a mistake, but it's amusing
00:05:01 <coppro> ehird: that's one definition and probably the most sensible one
00:05:30 <ehird> it's the widely accepted one and the one all trans* (admittedly not very many) i've known have used /shrug
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00:56:01 * ehird considers ditching his VPS and getting a NearlyFreeSpeech.NET account...
00:56:02 <ehird> Advantages: Less administration overhead, way cheaper (if I had a dynamic 300MB site that uses MySQL/InnoDB and served 10 GB a month, then it's around $7.50-$8 a month after the first month ($19.07 for the first month including domain registration)... so it's pretty much dirt cheap), tech savvy, minimal bullshit, they're pretty cool, good reputation, the neat thing where they mirror your site on a bunch of servers automatically and use the less populated ones
00:56:02 <ehird> Disadvantages: Can't run overly-intensive processes, can't mess about with root, can't use things like FastCGI (just PHP or CGI), can't run IRC bots
00:56:13 <ehird> it's a tough one :P
00:56:38 <ehird> the administration thing is prolly a big deal though, my server's just sitting there because i haven't got it set up yet again
00:57:50 <ehird> virtual private server; basically you get root on a Xen instance
00:58:01 <ehird> + bandwidth, storage etc
00:58:08 <ehird> it's just like a dedi, except a bit slower and way cheaper
00:58:18 <GregorR> Not being able to run bots would suck.
00:58:27 <ehird> GregorR: true. you know what they should do?
00:58:38 <GregorR> ... allow you to run bots?
00:58:39 <ais523> ehird: why can't you run IRC bots?
00:58:44 <ehird> GregorR: shush you,
00:58:48 <ehird> ais523: because it's a web hosting service
00:59:00 <ehird> i'd use it to host software repos, some useless bloggy thing, whatever
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00:59:13 <ehird> there should be a service thing where:
00:59:25 <ehird> Amazon's EC2 lets you spawn VPSes for an hourly rate or whatever, and they come with OSs and stuff
00:59:37 <ehird> something like that, except instead of spawning a VPS, you just spawn a procses
00:59:44 <ehird> and still migrated across servers and shit
01:00:10 <ehird> like, "run this process somewhere on your servers, I don't care, just give it an internet connection, a barebones Linux and some persistent storage"
01:00:43 <ehird> then it'd just be like $ run-remote -d botinstance/ ./start irc.freenode.net 6667
01:01:05 <ehird> it'd tar up botinstance, send it across, run ./start with those arguments, and persist any changes in the directory ./start is in (botinstance/)
01:01:10 <ehird> and it could move across servers and shit automatically
01:01:25 <ehird> basically like nohup, except it continues running after you shut the machine down :-P
01:01:42 <ehird> (when it terminates you can download the final modified botinstance/)
01:02:29 <ehird> it'd be like a vps, but cheaper + way simpler
01:02:50 <ehird> also, it'd bring more-or-less pay for what you use pricing to VPSes, which is rather difficult with a regular sort of VPS
01:04:01 <ehird> in conclusion, I ramble a lot
01:04:33 <ehird> ais523: btw, the technical reason you can't run an irc bot or fastcgi or whatever is presumably that your site is served through various servers at various times depending on load
01:04:55 <ehird> and migrating processes would be a Bitch(TM), especially when for a web hosting service, IRC bots are irrelevant (they just use up resources) and FastCGI is relatively unused
01:05:08 <ehird> although with heavy web frameworks getting more common, it'll be an issue for them
01:05:19 <ehird> as Rails, Django etc don't play too nicely with a set-up-every-request CGI environment...
01:05:34 <ehird> still, static files are nice for anything I'd want to put on there, so that doesn't bother me
01:05:36 <ehird> it's mainly the irc bot thing
01:05:42 <ehird> ais523: what do you think of my remote-process idea up there? ↑
01:06:00 <ais523> ehird: busy now, I'll look later
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01:46:12 <ehird> http://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/14/145/145273.html
01:46:14 <ehird> all ti signing keys factored
01:46:22 <ehird> "Yes, due to a gigantic effort by the entire community, via the boinc project, we could factor keys within a week."
01:46:28 <ehird> i can see they're putting the resources to good use!
01:47:09 <ehird> "I thought this was going to be a mathematical analysis of the musical keys in which Atlanta-born rapper TI can sing. I have to admit I was somewhat disappointed."
01:47:30 <Sgeo> The keys are on Wikileak
01:47:40 <Sgeo> As well as elsewhere
01:49:11 <ehird> TI won't give a shit.
01:50:42 <ehird> Okay, maybe they do: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/9fkzd/censorship_on_reddit_yes_here_is_the_evidence/c0cl3sq
01:51:33 <ehird> Someone ought to get my Arch install working.
02:13:37 <ehird> X is still shit, btw.
02:21:52 * Sgeo remembers seeing people agree with The UNIX Hater's Manual (iirc) about X sucking.
02:23:37 <ehird> The UNIX Hater's Handbook
02:23:40 <ehird> But, uhh, no shit?
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03:33:26 <ehird> i think we've established it refers to ILLICIT SUBSTANCES.
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04:52:43 <GregorR> Aug 29 12:31:30 <ehird> "Monster.Dildo.Cocks.XXX.DVDrip.XviD-GraceNotes" —reddit <-- I thought this was a confusing name for a porn vid!
04:52:58 <ehird> ... oldest ... logreading ... ever
04:53:00 <GregorR> ---: It's a guy in a rooster costume handing out complimentary dildos to promote the opening of a new adult video store.
04:53:18 <GregorR> Actually, I had happened to type `quote and get
04:53:21 <HackEgo> 78|<GregorR> ??? <GregorR> Are the cocks actually just implanted dildos? <GregorR> Or are there monster dildos and cocks? <GregorR> Or are both the dildos and cocks monster?
04:53:23 <ehird> I'm infinitely confused, dude
04:53:34 <GregorR> So I pasted that to somebody, then the log it came from.
04:53:44 <GregorR> And he figured out what it actually is :P
04:53:57 <ehird> GregorR: What what actually is?
04:54:17 <GregorR> Monster.Dildo.Cocks.XXX.DVDrip.XviD-GraceNotes
04:54:40 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out how the rooster comes in, dude.
04:54:56 <ehird> Slereah: It's on scene FTP, bitch.
04:55:06 <ehird> GregorR: Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
04:55:26 <ehird> That still doesn't explain Monster. :P
04:55:49 <GregorR> I assume the dildos are monster.
04:56:11 <ehird> Like, shaped like the penis of a monster?
04:56:22 <HackEgo> * an imaginary creature usually having various human and animal parts \ * giant: someone or something that is abnormally large and powerful \ * freak: a person or animal that is markedly unusual or deformed
04:56:32 <ehird> So this whole story is...
04:56:35 <ehird> a... a FABRICATION
04:57:03 <ehird> Anyway, to solve the mystery: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9fc4n/i_was_in_a_major_mp3_releasing_group_in_the/c0cjyyj?context=1
05:02:34 <ehird> GregorR: how much do I need to bribe you to rant about how much my remote process thingy idea sucks?
05:02:53 <GregorR> Depends, how much does it suck?
05:03:09 <GregorR> That's actually an interesting idea, I was considering implementing it modulo the fact that I don't have the resources.
05:03:26 <ehird> I guess you need to pay more to get criticism :D
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05:04:14 <GregorR> You keep falling ... out of the channel?
05:04:23 <ehird> There's a trap door in the corner.
05:05:07 <ais523> ehird: you know your duty
05:05:13 <ais523> and there will no longer be a trapdoor
05:07:56 <ehird> Actually I wish more things had Compose.
05:08:06 <ehird> I should set it up, but OTOH I could just get Arch woring.
05:09:12 <ehird> Well, Arch works; X11 doesn't.
05:09:28 * ais523 wonders what ehird is doing online at 5am
05:09:42 <ehird> I could ask the same of you
05:09:57 <ais523> but IIRC, school's started already
05:10:00 <ehird> You and your logic :P
05:13:04 * ehird wonders why there isn't a flipped-` character
05:13:15 <ehird> Then we could have better ``dumb quotes[INVALID][INVALID]
05:13:58 * ais523 is annoyed at not being able to use control-click for autoscroll
05:14:17 <ais523> my mousewheel has started acting up, so I can't really use it for middle-clicking very easily
05:14:24 <ais523> so I've been control-clicking links to open them in new tabs
05:14:39 <ais523> but unfortunately, the same substitution doesn't work on autoscroll
05:14:53 <ais523> (I have Firefox set to paste on middle-click for textboxes, scroll on middle-click for everything else)
05:14:57 <ehird> also, you really need to replace that computer...
05:15:10 <ehird> broken touchpad, associated mouse has broken button... :D
05:15:14 <ais523> hmm... is it possible to map mouse buttons-modifier combinations to other mouse buttons?
05:15:20 <ehird> yes, I'm pretty sure
05:15:21 <ais523> and it's not completely broken, just intermittent
05:15:32 <ehird> worst-case, just catch Ctrl-click in a daemon
05:15:37 <ehird> and send a middle click event
05:16:15 <ais523> oh, this is the third mouse I've been on
05:16:24 <ais523> the second one broke, the first one was wireless and used up too much battery power
05:16:36 <ais523> and ofc the touchpad didn't work for more than about a minute
05:17:04 <ehird> ais523: remember how you were incredulous at people paying more than a few hundred pounds for a computer?
05:17:10 <ehird> it's so they don't have to deal with that shit.
05:17:24 <ais523> the point is, despite all your claims, this computer still works sufficiently well for me to not really consider changing
05:17:36 <ehird> the fact is that the components break
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05:17:52 <ehird> you won't say that when the keyboard breaks beacuse of the same shoddy engineering to cut costs
05:18:31 <ais523> ehird: on my first computer (a BBC Micro B), neither the Y or B key worked
05:18:34 <ais523> but I worked around it
05:18:41 <ais523> by redefining a couple of the function keys
05:18:53 <ehird> ais523: and surely you are not surprised that other, more sane people would consider it a better solution to buy a new one?
05:19:07 <ais523> ehird: it cost about £20, it was junk someone else was throwing out
05:19:12 <ais523> I didn't really expect it to work well
05:19:19 <ehird> then you are using an invalid example.
05:19:55 <ehird> when I buy, e.g. a cheap Dell laptop, I expect it to be a bit of a pain to get working, not have very good components, and break sooner than a more expensive alternative
05:20:12 <ehird> when I buy, e.g. a ThinkPad, I expect it to work fine, have good components, last longer and cost several times more
05:20:21 <ais523> sufficiently sooner that the more expensive one lasts longer on average?
05:20:32 <ehird> thinkpads last like 10 yaers
05:20:37 <ais523> I'd expect people like you to upgrade often enough that you'd be upgrading before it broke, anyway
05:20:46 <ais523> I mean, could you cope with a computer that was top of the range 10 years ago?
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05:21:00 <ehird> probably not, but the point is that something that totally breaks later on,
05:21:04 <ehird> will likely get defects a lot sooner
05:21:23 <ehird> besides, things like input devices are very important, for obvious reasons
05:21:47 <ehird> and lower-end hardware has a tendency to... disagree...
05:22:57 <ehird> I'm just saying that it's understandable paying £800 for a sturdy, lightweight ThinkPad with long battery life, a good screen, an exceptional keyboard, the nub mouse, high-quality hardware and good compatibility, vs paying £300 for a low-end Dell
05:22:59 <ais523> I'm still amused that it came with a Windows XP manual
05:23:16 <ais523> heh, the battery life is about 10 minutes on here
05:23:21 <ehird> if you don't mind fiddling a whole bunch, don't mind being inconvenienced at all and are on a tight budget, of course the Dell is superior
05:23:45 <ais523> I'm glad that it's fast at hibernating
05:24:09 <ehird> you should be able to close a notebook's lid and pick it up immediately afterwards imo
05:24:27 <ehird> I think that the suspend modes you get in linux are wrong
05:24:37 <ais523> I don't, I don't like the chance of the hard drive being knocked
05:24:47 <ehird> ais523: see, the high-end notebooks have shock protection on the harddrive
05:24:51 <ehird> that automatically parks the head
05:25:01 <ais523> ehird: I know, and it even works on Linux as of a few months ago
05:25:11 <ehird> coppro: It should first go to an ultra-low-power mode, solely to suspend to disk, and then it suspends to RAM
05:25:25 <ehird> the difference is that it turns off immediately, instead of taking a second or two to suspend to anything
05:25:26 <ais523> but, I don't trust it to work in, say, the middle of a distro upgrade
05:25:36 <ehird> ais523: you're suspending in the middle of a distro upgrade?
05:25:49 <ais523> well, not suspending exactly
05:25:58 <ais523> but the screen permablanked due to a bug
05:26:14 <ais523> so in the end, I had to REISUB it, in the middle of the upgrade
05:26:17 <ehird> that's another issue with the hardware :-P
05:26:22 <ais523> credit to Debian and possibly Ubuntu that it still worked afterwards
05:26:36 <ais523> although I had to finish off the upgrade by giving the required apt commands at the command prompt
05:26:41 <ehird> Alt+SysRq+stuff doesn't always work :(
05:26:51 <ais523> ehird: the computer was still responding fine
05:27:04 <ais523> the only reason I did it directly to the kernel is that the GUI would never have let me abort a distro upgrade
05:27:40 <ehird> specifically, if X isn't recognizing your keyboard and mouse, and it's frozen, then you can't do anything with them
05:28:17 <ais523> is SysRq handled at the X level, or the kernel level?
05:28:21 <ehird> ais523: kernel, of course
05:28:27 <ehird> but X steals the keyboard, I guess
05:28:32 <ehird> and then fails to do anything with it
05:28:45 <ais523> SysRq was originally invented so that brand-new multitasking operating systems had some way to tell them to switch processes
05:28:56 <ais523> so that none of the other keys would conflict with existing programs
05:29:07 <ais523> but then, people didn't use it, and invented alt-tab and so on instead
05:29:16 <ais523> (and control-alt-delete, of course)
05:29:46 <ais523> and to think control-alt-delete was originally security through obscurity (you could explain it to someone over the phone, but there's no chance they'd think of it by themselves, was the idea)
05:32:44 <ehird> ais523: haha, really?
05:32:54 <ehird> what was it for at the time?
05:33:09 <ais523> but people weren't supposed to know that
05:33:22 <ehird> to keep techies employed?
05:33:30 <ais523> and because they'd lose their data if they tried it
05:33:43 <ais523> and companies nearly always misjudge the technical competence of their users one way or another
05:36:00 <ehird> /me wonders why the inscrutable alt+unicode from windows and opt+{semi-random key/prefix} [key] caught on and compose prefix key didn't
05:36:18 <ehird> I mean, Compose ' e makes more sense than Option-e e.
05:36:27 <ais523> emacs uses C-x 8 for compose
05:36:32 <ais523> which is easy and predictable, yet a pain to type
05:36:37 <ais523> I mean, once you know about the C-x 8
05:36:49 <ais523> and, interestingly, Word has its own compose mechanisms
05:37:06 <ehird> hmm... I wonder what you use for ˝ with standard compose
05:37:10 <ais523> despite control-alt-e being e in most of the rest of Windows
05:37:20 <ehird> it's Option+j o to make ő here
05:37:34 <ehird> but I don't know how X11 Compose analogises double characters
05:38:12 <ehird> ais523: what's ˝ called?
05:38:26 <ais523> is that the hungarian double-acute?
05:38:34 <ais523> they look the same at this font size
05:39:49 <ehird> double-acute, apparently
05:40:05 <ehird> <Multi_key> <equal> <O> : "Ő" U0150 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
05:40:12 <ehird> so =, which makes no sense
05:40:18 <ehird> still, compose is never any _worse_ than option
05:40:57 <ehird> and Compose / o makes far more sense than devoting Option+o to ø
05:41:08 <ehird> plus, Option+q is œ
05:41:18 <ehird> Compose o e only makes about, oh, ten times more sense
05:42:41 * ehird uses proper characters
05:43:04 <ehird> ⌥q is œ, ⎄ o e is œ
05:43:11 <ais523> I'm not sure how to type a composed oe with this keyboard mapping at all
05:43:27 <ehird> basically the OS X system, then
05:43:35 <ehird> which is better than windows but worse than compose
05:43:50 <ais523> altgr-punctuation mostly composes the punctuation
05:44:04 <ais523> although, with a random and weird key assignment, rather than the logical one
05:44:12 <ais523> e.g. altgr-; composes a '
05:45:16 <ehird> because ´'s mostly used in é in english, i guess
05:45:55 <ais523> and acute's the most common accent for an e altogether, I think
05:46:45 <ais523> because hardly anyone writes it like that
05:47:18 <ais523> even though it's correct
05:47:42 <ais523> I remember that a while back, I was talking how it's almost impossible to connect to most IRC networks without deviating from the relevant standards
05:47:45 <ais523> for one thing, you'd use the wrong port
05:48:05 <ehird> de jure standards are useless
05:48:20 <ehird> irc rfcs spec a protocol that happens to have the same name :)
05:49:42 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9kjaf/i_am_an_exextreme_programmer_i_did_it_for_6_years/ ;; weirdest definition of extreme programming ever
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05:55:54 * Gregor now possesses +1 NICK OF AWESOME
05:56:14 -!- ehird has changed nick to gr.
05:56:23 <gr> I AM GREGOR R
05:56:35 <gr> Last seen 11 weeks ago!
05:56:42 <ais523> My surname is not Hurd.
05:56:44 <gr> Wonder if that's droppable.
05:56:52 <gr> So I can extort Gregor for it.
05:56:54 -!- gr has changed nick to e.
05:57:09 <e> Las seen 4 weeks ago!
05:57:11 -!- e has changed nick to ehird.
05:57:11 <Gregor> I'm quite happy with "Gregor"
05:57:15 <ehird> One day I shall have the nick e.
06:03:54 <ehird> http://imgur.com/6NO0J.png
06:03:58 * ehird disappears in a puff of logic
06:18:35 <ehird> Mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
06:53:52 <ehird> hmm... there isn't much good CSS support in text mode browsers
06:54:04 <ehird> even elinks fails at any sort of layout or indeed anything beyond colours
07:02:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> I haven't seen anything like Erlang's lists-are-magically-strings in another language <-- char* in C? Also yeah it is just about how io:format() prints it given the ~w or ~p format. You can force print it as a list or as a string in either case
07:02:35 <ehird> char * isn't a string and it doesn't display as a string.
07:02:46 <ehird> You can write it out as bytes if you call functions specifically for that purpose.
07:02:56 <ehird> But it is not "a string", and there is no stringification in C.
07:06:02 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. This is same. io:format's ~p format writes it out as a string if it seems to make sense
07:06:12 <ehird> No. This is not the same hting at all.
07:06:22 <ais523> char* doesn't intrinsically display as anything
07:06:25 <AnMaster> ehird, it is still a list internally, like char* idoesn't change
07:06:27 <ehird> One is the inspected, human-readable output of a REPL, one is dumping bytes.
07:06:38 <ais523> you can use %s to print it string-style, but ofc that's not the only way to print it
07:06:44 <ehird> Comparing them is either purposeful folly or astounding denseness.
07:06:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well, there is no "intrinsically" here either, except using the format ~p (or ~w)
07:06:55 <AnMaster> which tries to autoformat them in a nice way
07:06:55 <ehird> Yes, which is THE STANDARD WAY TO INSPECT AN OBJECT.
07:07:05 <ehird> And is USED by the REPL.
07:07:16 <AnMaster> of course you can use ~s to force one to be printed as a string for example
07:07:36 <ais523> a REPL printing ASCII-like things as strings might be useful; I know gdb always tries to print char* as a string, for instance
07:07:41 <ais523> escaping nonprintables
07:07:52 <ehird> not when those things are regular integer lists
07:07:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what about char* not being stringy hm, check how gdb shows them
07:07:59 <AnMaster> which is the standard way there
07:08:01 <ehird> or at least indistinguishable from them
07:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm really not interested in talking to you about this, any more than I am to a brick wall
07:08:45 <ais523> gprolog's weird, in that 'this is a string' and "this is an integer list taking the ASCII values of the relevant characters"
07:08:49 <ais523> and they're two different concepts
07:09:06 <ehird> That's not weird at all.
07:09:11 <ehird> 'foo' is not a string.
07:09:14 <ais523> there's an intlist-string casting function
07:09:23 <ais523> well, atoms and strings are indistinguishable in Prolog
07:09:24 <ehird> "foo" is a string.
07:09:28 <ehird> Yes, I know the terms differ,
07:09:38 <ais523> whereas an intlist is something quite different
07:09:39 <ehird> but I'm using standard terms to clarify what they *are*.
07:09:49 <ais523> most of the string-manipulation functions work on atoms
07:10:00 <ais523> although, gprolog has a limit to the number of atoms a program can use
07:10:06 <ais523> so I suppose you need lists for TCness
07:10:41 <ehird> Well, old Lisps used |ATOMS TO PRINT OUT TEXT TOO|.
07:11:13 * ehird 's mind is bludgeoned with the most awesome idea ever
07:11:14 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the point is that erlang's ~p format (which is used by REPL indeed) will try to print anything in a nice way. This means it will even try to indent nicely if it goes multi-line for a tuple or such. And it tries to print lists that seems string-like (only printable chars and newline, plus possibly some other ones) as strings, while if it is not string like, it prints it like a [1,2,3] st
07:11:20 <fizzie> ais523: At least SWI-Prolog mixes in a third thing, which is a separate "string" data type; you can tell it to read doublequotes as strings instead of lists of integers, or to read `foo` as string, and there's atom_to_string and such what you'd expect.
07:11:20 <ehird> It's a decentralised purely functional package manager.
07:11:26 <ais523> actually, come to think of it, intlists don't need string-manipulation primitives
07:11:27 <ehird> This must be what a hangover feels like.
07:11:30 <ehird> Except intellectual.
07:11:33 <ais523> ehird: ok, that is a great idea
07:11:53 <ais523> fizzie: most versions of Prolog let you customize what the various quoting styles mean
07:11:58 <ais523> so my guess is, it isn't particularly standardised
07:12:11 <ais523> and they're all doing it like that for compatibility
07:12:24 <ehird> Latest packages direct from the source! A web of trust! Perfectly trustable rollbacks, upgrades! Great dependency handling! Automatic upgrades (with bad upgrades flagged by the web of trust, I guess)!
07:12:51 <ais523> you should be able to live-run updates without upgrading
07:12:59 <ais523> as in, run updates without installing them, live-CD style
07:13:00 <ehird> ais523: Sure, that's easy.
07:13:38 <ehird> I'm tempted to add the capability-security-hacked-up-by-using-a-separate-account-for-each-program, but that'd be (a) slow for short-running command line programs and (b) a bit too hacky and revolutionary to work without a bunch of futzing.
07:13:55 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit hard for someone knowing no one using the system to get into though
07:14:07 <ehird> Still, the unmodified idea on its own is almost enough to turn into zzo and make my own distribution for.
07:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, that's true; and I just realised that relying on it to flag good/bad updates is trying to make trustability technological, which as SSL demonstrates doesn't work.
07:14:33 <fizzie> And speaking of strings, still; Matlab does strings as vectors of small integers. But it does use the "char" element-data-type for those vectors, and then determines whether to print as string or as vector based on that.
07:14:45 <ehird> You can sneak a hole into Debian anyway, so it's not like it's any worse.
07:15:06 <ehird> and Windows/OS X users rarely upgrade to find a hole, at least I've never really heard of it happening to decent sotware
07:15:14 <ehird> (well, hole = malicious program)
07:15:34 <AnMaster> ehird, also it would be quite a pain to maintain for the distro maintainer, it seems likely that for large such webs of trust the trusted upgrades may diverge, and take a long time to reach everyone
07:15:48 <ais523> ehird: and there was that attempt to sneak a trojan into the kernel which was noticed
07:15:50 <ehird> The distro maintainer wouldn't do packages.
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07:15:59 <AnMaster> which would be kind of, err..., bad for critical security upgrades
07:16:05 <ehird> I said decentralised: software from the source. If you want a patched version, get it from the patcher.
07:16:20 <ehird> If the distro owners package stuff that the owners don't, get it from there.
07:16:31 <AnMaster> someone would still have to make some kind of package-y thing for the system
07:16:31 <ehird> Package search: google or something :P
07:16:36 <ehird> AnMaster: What do you mean?
07:16:52 <ehird> Of course there'd be a package format, there just wouldn't be a single location.
07:17:06 <ehird> You'd identify packages with a URI.
07:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, right, but who would make the packages for, say, kernel, libc and so on?
07:17:25 <AnMaster> you don't expect upstream devs to do so I assume?
07:17:32 <ehird> Well, obviously the distro maintainers (unless Linus suddenly starts building packages).
07:17:51 <ehird> Well, just as you find debian/ directories in downloaded source packages, and sometimes generic linux binaries, I'd expect some upstreams to, yes.
07:17:55 <ehird> Assuming it took off, that is.
07:18:05 <ehird> I mean, there's no point fighting to get into a non-existent repository if you can just put up the file.
07:18:31 <AnMaster> ehird, would this be a binary or source based distro?
07:19:05 <ehird> I think that the way to do it would be to consider a binary a cached version of (buildPkg foo), if you see what I mean.
07:19:12 <AnMaster> also, how would the web of trust updates be shared? Some sort of p2p?
07:19:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I dropped the web of trust idea; I don't think it helps.
07:19:27 <ehird> But via HTTP or whatever, obviously.
07:19:36 <AnMaster> ehird, right, from a central location? :/
07:19:56 <ehird> Anyway, signing is useful for *installing* packages.
07:20:04 <ehird> Not to authenticate it's a certain person, but
07:20:15 <ehird> to authenticate that the updates you get come from the same person as the first version you installed
07:20:17 <ehird> (and nothing more)
07:20:29 <AnMaster> ehird, ah good, so everyone would have to poke holes in their firewalls, and the whole thing would be a pain for mobile users?
07:20:31 <ehird> that way to sneak a bad upgrade in, you'd need their GPG key + password
07:20:42 <AnMaster> mobile here = not same location all the time
07:20:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Firstly, there are certain things known as hosting services. Secondly, shut the fuck up, I dropped the idea.
07:21:01 <ehird> Web of trust could be done in a similar way to PGP key servers.
07:21:08 <ehird> But it's not useful, so I dropped it.
07:21:18 <AnMaster> then what is distributed about it?
07:21:26 <ehird> klgjsdfklgsdfjklgseior6gjusw90000hjgns what?
07:21:40 <ehird> ...because there is no package repository...
07:21:56 <AnMaster> but you don't pull from peers any longer
07:22:17 <ehird> Well, the web of trust could be useful maybe, but only as a guideline.
07:22:31 <ehird> That is, next to a person's name, a smiley face :) if they're considered trustable by people you trust, etc.
07:22:36 <ehird> However, that'll fail because people are lazy.
07:22:46 <ehird> I know I wouldn't bother marking people.
07:23:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just considering that if you needs to connect to peers it would be hard to use for people like ais and me who are university are behind NAT with their laptops. And a lot of people don't run their systems 24h.
07:23:36 <ehird> ..................................
07:23:43 <AnMaster> but with central servers it would work better
07:23:47 <ehird> Why do you ignore me when I say I dropped the web of trust idea? Are you trying to be annoying?
07:23:51 <ehird> There's no central servers in my design either.
07:24:18 <ehird> I think you've entirely mixed up web of trust vs package sites.
07:24:28 <ehird> I dropped the web of trust crap. Okay?
07:24:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just explaining my reasoning against it. I wasn't bugging you about it.
07:24:43 <ehird> Okay, fine, you were just talking to me so I assumed so, quite obviously...
07:25:01 <ehird> Does anyone know how expensive creating a user/group is on linux?
07:25:17 <ais523> not very, I don't think
07:25:27 <ais523> although /etc/passwd probably uses a linear search by default
07:25:28 <AnMaster> hm aren't there a limited number of UIDs/GIDs?
07:25:45 <AnMaster> ais523, think it does yes, since there is no requirement that it is ordered.
07:25:58 <AnMaster> of course you can sort it using pwck -s
07:26:03 <ais523> AnMaster: there are library functions for reading /etc/passwd
07:26:13 <ehird> ais523: How many seconds to create a functional user/group in C code?
07:26:13 <ais523> and you're supposed to use those rather than reading the file
07:26:21 <ais523> so for all I know, they keep a hashed btree of the things in memory
07:26:26 <fizzie> ais523: I think you can bump that up to 2^32 or so nowadays; you can for pids.
07:26:31 <ais523> ehird: well under 1, I expect
07:26:34 <ehird> I guess I could make the users one-time, but that's less ... dynamic.
07:26:38 <ehird> ais523: 0.0x? 0.00x?
07:26:55 <fizzie> C.f. Documentation/highuid.txt in your kernel docs.
07:26:55 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean creating on the fly like Gregor did in EgoBot?
07:27:18 <AnMaster> ehird, not expensive iirc, it is just changing uid to some high reserved number
07:27:19 <ais523> you could benchmark and find out, I suppose
07:27:34 <ehird> ais523: no I can't, I don't have X11 working on Arch
07:27:50 <AnMaster> ais523, damn you beat me to it
07:28:39 <ehird> ais523: To have an environment comfortable enough to be worth rebooting into?
07:29:03 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise you needed a reboot
07:29:09 <ehird> I mean, I kinda want a decent web browser and some hawt terminal multiplexing action.
07:29:10 <ais523> I thought you still had infinity VMs lying around
07:29:24 <ehird> ais523: That's not going to give an accurate benchmark result...
07:29:34 <ais523> it could be close, surely?
07:29:36 <ehird> X11 didn't work in the VM either, heh.
07:29:40 <ais523> especially if you run on CPU time inside the simulation
07:29:51 <ehird> ais523: Well, I actually don't have one, so.
07:30:36 <ehird> I wonder why there isn't a non-X graphical server that can speak the X protocol.
07:30:40 <ehird> You know, one that doesn't suck.
07:31:23 <ais523> are there any non-dead forks of X with any momentum?
07:31:33 <ehird> I don't mean fork.
07:31:36 <ehird> ais523: but yes, Xorg.
07:31:45 <ehird> Forked from XFree86, which is probably a fork itself.
07:32:11 <ehird> I think we do have X-compatible experimental graphical servers, but come on. We should have started working on this shit in, like, the late 90s.
07:33:08 <ehird> (Its native protocol should just be a slightly cleaned up, perhaps faster and non-networked (use X11) version of the X protocol; anything too different makes X software feel like emulated legacy software, which would defeat the point.)
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07:34:55 <fizzie> There's X11.app, which is maybe non-dead, but I guess you can't really count that.
07:35:43 <ehird> One disadvantage of this system is that the canonical names of things are gonna be like /pkg/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls, and perhaps even more verbose due to "coreutils" being a name whereas we work with URIs.
07:35:53 <ehird> I'll have to think about how to make the real paths more lean.
07:37:02 <fizzie> XFast seems a bit dead; no SVN changes since 2008-08.
07:39:54 <fizzie> And there's that WeirdX Java server thing, from the Jsch people -- at http://www.jcraft.com/weirdx/ -- but I'm not very certain that's alive either.
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07:46:33 <ehird> Hmm, it'd actually be more like /home/ehird/.pkg/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls, which is even worse.
07:51:55 <ais523> /home/ehird/.pkg/http/org/gnu/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls maybe
07:52:15 <ehird> At that point I'd just use the actual URI -
07:52:25 <ais523> I did, just in directory structure form
07:52:51 <ehird> /home/ehird/.pkg/http/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls
07:52:59 <ehird> well, actually, probably more like
07:53:07 <ehird> http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/
07:53:27 <ais523> oh come off it GNU, that's just a ridiculous URL
07:53:30 <ehird> /home/ehird/.pkg/http/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/coreutils-7.6-packagemanagernamething/bin/ls
07:53:35 <ehird> ais523: no, it's very common
07:53:41 <ehird> ftp., as a subdomain, means "download repository"
07:53:51 <ais523> it can be both common /and/ ridiculous, IMO
07:53:59 <ais523> like misHungarian notation
07:54:06 <ehird> Anyway, /home/ehird/.pkg/http/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/coreutils/coreutils-7.6-packagemanagernamething/bin/ls of course assumes that GNU would make their own packages, which I doubt.
07:54:47 <ehird> It's more likely to be /home/ehird/.pkg/http/packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6/bin/ls
07:55:11 <ehird> It's more likely to be /home/ehird/.pkg/http/packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.xyz/bin/ls
07:55:16 <ehird> where .xyz is the file extension
07:55:33 <ehird> Then, the URL for the package description file would be http://packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.xyz.
07:55:53 <ehird> The files themselves would likely be in http:/packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.tar.bz2 or something, but that doesn't matter.
07:55:57 <ehird> *The files themselves would likely be in http://packages.awesome-linux.org/coreutils/7.6.tar.bz2 or something, but that doesn't matter.
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07:56:09 <oklopol> can ie be made to lie it's ff
07:56:16 <ehird> oklopol: is that just a random thought
07:56:22 <ais523> IE allows extensions, after all
07:56:23 <ehird> or have you found the weirdest website ever
07:56:33 <ais523> I don't know how much control they have over the browser's behaviour
07:56:40 <ais523> ehird: say the website renders fine in IE8 and Firefox
07:56:47 <ais523> but it has hacks for IE6 that actually make it look worse in IE8
07:56:49 <ehird> he has IE8 doesn't he
07:56:54 <ais523> and it isn't checking the browser version number
07:57:01 <ais523> that seems plausible to me
07:57:01 <ehird> you mixed up your numbers
07:57:10 <ehird> you just worded it badly
07:57:11 <oklopol> it's the perfect browser apart from the fact every fucking unix retard just puts a YOU SHOULD USE FF I LIKE IT BETTAH <3 message on their page
07:57:14 <ais523> I mean, would render fine without the hacks
07:57:25 <ehird> most firefox advocates aren't unix users
07:57:37 <ehird> but hey, i was going to help you before you got all vitrolically hateful at me and my kin <3
07:57:49 <ais523> also, it's not even the case that all unix users advocate firefox
07:57:56 <oklopol> well sorry, but it's rather annoying to get that message every day.
07:57:59 <ais523> I use it for the extensions, but I think that, say, Epiphany has a better design
07:58:03 <ais523> just it needs a bit of polish
07:58:04 <ehird> ais523: to be fair, he said fucking unix retards
07:58:15 <fizzie> I just use it for the articles.
07:58:23 <oklopol> "fucking unix retards" isn't all that hateful :P
07:58:29 <ehird> perhaps all mentally handicapped unix users currently having sexual intercourse do put such messages on their page
07:58:51 <oklopol> yes let's say that's what i meant.
07:58:54 <ehird> oklopol: you could just download a better browser.
07:59:23 <ehird> Sure, Opera's fine.
07:59:41 <ais523> wow at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Explorer_extensions
07:59:46 * ais523 fights instinct to slap AfD tag on it
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08:00:05 <ais523> it's basically a list of third-party toolbars
08:00:10 <fizzie> Personally I think the Operaans somehow project a much more evangelical view of themselves.
08:00:20 <ehird> fizzie: yes, that's why I was amused :)
08:00:25 <oklopol> i just don't really feel like switching browsers just because some people think ie sucks
08:00:28 <oklopol> well, all people except me
08:00:29 <ehird> all Opera users want to tell you about how they love Opera
08:00:30 <ais523> nothing there gives the article a reason for existence, and I suspect it's NPOV
08:00:36 <ehird> and all the browsers are raelly much worse
08:00:40 <FireFly> ehird, I really looooooooove opera
08:00:48 <ais523> and it's basically a page for people to spam on
08:00:48 <ehird> FireFly: except, one problem
08:00:51 <ehird> opera is fucking shit
08:01:01 <FireFly> Well, I like it, but I'm fine if others don't
08:01:04 <ais523> hmm... opera comes up with all the great UI innovations
08:01:06 <ehird> even if it was good, it's not good enough to justify using non-free software with a rendering engine that nothing else uses
08:01:13 <ais523> and then other browsers steal them and do them better
08:01:14 <ehird> ais523: oh, but opera's UI is pretty bad
08:01:20 <ais523> ehird: yes, it's a paradox
08:01:20 <ehird> they just add everything and everyone else cherry-picks the good parts
08:01:33 <ais523> Opera is the Slash'EM of browsers?
08:02:20 <ehird> i love how opera's toolbar has the useless rewind/fast forward buttons, it's such a perfect example of its creeping featuritis (opera users: I know you use it. I know you use every feature. You do this so you can defend it. :P)
08:02:46 <FireFly> I use the fast-forward feature, but I've removed the button for it
08:02:58 <FireFly> Actually, you saw my UI a while ago, didn't you?
08:03:05 <ehird> Yes, although I've forgotten.
08:03:23 <ais523> is that like, guesses which page you plan to go to next and takes you there
08:03:24 <ehird> ais523: "keep pressing forwards until the domain changes"
08:03:29 <ehird> rewind: the reverse
08:03:40 <ehird> absolutely useless
08:03:42 <ais523> I like my version better
08:03:44 <FireFly> The fast-forward usually works well
08:03:54 <FireFly> For getting to the next page of stuff
08:04:19 <ehird> it only works if you have pages in the forward history...
08:04:30 <ehird> then they changed it
08:04:34 <FireFly> From what I've read, it looks for links matching certain patterns
08:04:43 <ais523> oh, so it /does/ do what I said
08:05:04 <FireFly> Well, only if you don't have anything more forwardy in the history
08:05:08 <ais523> why do these people keep sending me forms as Word documents with rows of dots to write on?
08:05:13 <ais523> htf am I supposed to reply to that?
08:05:20 <ais523> I've been replacing the dots with my answer, and underlining it
08:05:28 <ais523> to look sort-of like I was writing on the line
08:05:37 <ais523> but then how could I email it back?
08:05:52 <ais523> in the time I could find a scanner, I could physically go to them and talk to them face to face
08:05:54 <fizzie> That "intelligent 'next whatever in sequence'" thing certainly isn't new now; there was babble about it when it was introduced.
08:05:57 <ais523> hmm... there's a wooden table here
08:06:01 <ais523> maybe I could find a camera
08:06:53 <FireFly> I didn't say it's new, ehird said it's not useful
08:07:10 <FireFly> Or rather, he found it unuseful
08:07:28 <ehird> considering it never even did anything other than what seemed to be the domain thing, yep
08:07:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the framebuffer X server?
08:07:55 <fizzie> I just mean that if they changed from "only does domain-jumping for history-browsing" (which really sounds useless to me) to "also selects the 'next' link", they didn't do it especially recently.
08:07:57 <ehird> AnMaster: plz paste context next time. and it'll be slow.
08:08:18 <fizzie> There's a couple of firefox extensions that try to do the same thing, haven't tried them out.
08:08:53 <FireFly> Well, I agree on that, I can't remember fast-forward doing anything else
08:09:33 <ehird> AnMaster: what about it?
08:09:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you said you couldn't get X working under it?
08:10:10 <AnMaster> I was suggesting that you try the framebuffer X server
08:10:18 <ehird> i'd prefer to fix actual x.
08:11:00 <fizzie> I'm not sure how slow XDirectFB would be; possibly not completely useless (based on the hype, again). fbdev + vesafb is not really a winning combination, though.
08:11:16 <fizzie> (Where "fbdev" refers to the X.org fbdev driver.)
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08:12:22 <ehird> X complains it can't find that at startup, but goes on anyway. Installing it changes nothing apart from removing that.
08:12:31 <ehird> CBA to fuck around with making an xorg.conf
08:12:45 <AnMaster> ehird, did you make hal and dbus start then?
08:12:55 <ehird> hal, yes. doesn't hal start dbus?
08:12:56 <AnMaster> or maybe arch changed to devicekit thingy
08:13:10 <ehird> i think dbus was in the list too
08:13:28 <ehird> neither radeonhd nor ati work
08:13:32 <ehird> cba to try aur fglrx
08:14:19 <ais523> ATI have Linux binary drivers packaged with the graphics card nowadays, on CDs
08:14:28 <ais523> which is of course nearly useless in most scenarios where you'd want them
08:14:32 <ehird> FireFly: Works fine on Ubuntu, Debian, ...
08:14:41 <ehird> FireFly: The fault lies squarely with Arch.
08:14:43 <ais523> ehird: that's quite some ...
08:14:48 <ais523> given how similar Ubuntu and Debian are
08:14:50 <FireFly> I'm running Kubuntu, and I've sure had some crashes here and there
08:14:51 <ehird> ais523: cba to think of more
08:17:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the vesa driver?
08:18:02 <ehird> worked first time i think. but wrong resolution. also i want the proper drivers. also keyboard and mouse didn't work then
08:18:33 <AnMaster> ehird, keyboard and mouse would be different drivers. Did you get those to work under anything else?
08:19:01 <ehird> I installed them, but I can't test them.
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08:19:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> [0010]I installed them, but I can't test them.
08:19:56 <ehird> 00:19:01 <ehird> I installed them, but I can't test them.
08:19:57 <AnMaster> how this thing shows "not in font"
08:20:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes the [0010] is there in your paste too
08:20:11 <AnMaster> there is some control code there
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08:28:44 <AnMaster> ais523, in TAEB what is a "TME chain"?
08:28:57 <ais523> a set of TMEs that point to each other until they reach the root TME
08:29:04 <AnMaster> ais523, well, what is a TME then
08:29:06 <ais523> basically, it extracts routes from the routing map
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08:29:13 <ais523> and a TME is a Tactical Map Entry
08:29:18 <ais523> it represents one movement
08:29:28 <ais523> in a particular location, at a particular time
08:29:33 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I found that, just didn't saw it mentioned with TME in the same place
08:32:30 <AnMaster> ais523, does TAEB track info about currently out of sight monsters? Like, it just went up stairs and below there is a black dragon next to the stairs, it will calculate with that if it decides to go down again?
08:32:44 <AnMaster> or, even on same level, in a throne room or such
08:32:46 <ais523> it's a major deficiency in the framework as-is
08:33:03 <AnMaster> since those aren't likely to move around if they are sleeping
08:33:29 <AnMaster> ais523, does it has pre-made maps for fixed levels that don't change? Such as valley of dead, the castle and such
08:33:43 <ais523> although there are Sokoban spoilers
08:34:07 <AnMaster> ais523, and for the mines it would be useful too, spotting what type of mines end based on layout around the stairs and such
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08:34:28 <ais523> but it's not a high priority right now; submit framework patches if you're interested
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08:37:01 <AnMaster> # We hates nymphs <-- who doesn't?
08:37:12 <AnMaster> ais523, what does TAEB do if it finds a scroll of genocide?
08:37:18 <AnMaster> assuming it isn't cursed that is
08:37:19 <ais523> nothing, it's a framework
08:37:25 <ais523> and TAEB::AI::Planar doesn't mess with scrolls yet
08:37:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well, what does Planar do then
08:38:22 <AnMaster> ais523, I have been thinking about that myself, one one hand it is better to save it, until you run into a bad monster (since you can't know which one you will run into first), on the other hand, messages like "one of your scrolls of genocide catch fire" really sucks
08:38:42 <ais523> ?oGeno isn't amazingly useful
08:38:56 <ais523> and I think you're approaching the problem of NetHack AIs from the wrong direction entirely
08:39:08 <ais523> as in, you need the simple stuff working before you mess with specific items
08:39:11 <AnMaster> ais523, sure is when you run into a master lich, or master mind flayer
08:39:22 <ais523> AnMaster: you burn an Elbereth
08:39:34 <ais523> or even dust one, if you have enough notice
08:39:55 <AnMaster> right, dust ones get messed out though easily
08:40:03 <ais523> you write more than once
08:40:17 <ais523> bots have no trouble stacking up 30 Elbereths on a square, they don't run out of patience
08:40:31 <AnMaster> ais523, it knows about the E word?
08:40:54 <AnMaster> oh btw, does write in the dust work on ice?
08:40:56 <ais523> yes for some purposes, not for others
08:41:00 <ais523> and yes, you write in the frost
08:41:21 <AnMaster> you don't get frost on ice usually, snow maybe, but not frost
08:50:31 <oklopol> i win because i already am at uni
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08:51:51 <fizzie> fi:uni == en:dream, the abbreviation, especially uncapitalized, always makes me smile.
08:52:36 <oklopol> every time i see it i dance a little
08:53:18 <fizzie> Should back up the IMAP folders for the school account before some overzealous administrator goes and wipes them out, even though I'm still employed there and all.
08:55:00 <ehird> anyway, I'd work on that package manager, but I'd have to make packages
08:55:04 <ehird> and that'd be tedious
08:56:00 <fizzie> "Demuxer info Name changed to Summertime18%"; stared at that for a bit thinking "funny name", but the 18% was just leftovers from I guess mplayer's cache-fill-percentage or something.
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09:26:33 <ehird> http://www.garfieldasgarfield.com/
09:37:59 <Deewiant> http://kecy.roumen.cz/roumingShow.php?file=cat_found.jpg
09:44:12 <ehird> Deewiant: that's not even the first i've seen of that type, so that one is probably a copycat made just to photo it
09:44:18 <ehird> the one i saw was black and white
09:44:31 <Deewiant> Yes, I have seen many such as well.
09:44:39 <Deewiant> I've also seen your link two months ago.
10:06:13 <ehird> http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q1/MiffTheFox/aspnet.png
10:10:18 <Deewiant> http://healthbase.netbase.com/#Nazis&Pros
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10:41:48 <ehird> I'd give up getting Arch to work, except the alternative is Debian and I want something that isn't 80% modified code...
10:41:58 <ehird> Admittedly I haven't done anything but whine, but.
10:49:52 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea if it is defined which sort of buffering will be used by something just fopen()ed?
10:50:09 <ais523> but I can't remember where
10:50:16 <ais523> failing that, probably POSIX
10:50:22 <AnMaster> couldn't find it in man page at least
10:50:44 <Deewiant> "When opened, a stream is fully buffered if and only if it can be deter‐
10:50:45 <Deewiant> mined not to refer to an interactive device."
10:52:12 <AnMaster> what package provides 3p on ubuntu?
10:52:50 * ehird wonders why arch has a bunch of dependencies on packages it doesn't need... seems to want to cruft up a system :)
10:52:52 <ais523> not sure, I don't have it
10:55:02 <fizzie> At least that's where fopen.3posix.gz is.
10:56:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the arcane apt-foo command to find that?
10:56:54 <ais523> it's dpkg that tells you where something is
10:57:32 <fizzie> I just used packages.ubuntu.com; I actually doubt there's a list of files available locally for not-installed packages.
10:57:52 <fizzie> Besides, this is an OS X system I'm using here.
10:58:05 <ais523> fizzie: yes, the list's only for already-existing packages
10:58:12 <ais523> well, already-installed
10:59:00 <fizzie> Anyway, "dpkg-query -S /path/to/file" generally tells you which package was reponsible for installing a file. Doesn't help when you haven't got the file you're looking for.
10:59:09 <ehird> apt-cache is to query the cached package database, apt-get is to perform changing actions on packages
10:59:16 <ehird> well, the installed package set, anyway
10:59:52 <ais523> and dpkg tells you about things that are independent of repos
10:59:54 <ehird> so apt-cache search searches the cached package database, apt-get remove removes a package from the installed set.
11:00:18 <ehird> apt-cache show shows the information of a package in the cached package database, etc
11:00:25 <ais523> apt-cache: tell me about the repo; apt-get: do something that makes changes using the repo; dpkg: do something that doesn't care about the repo
11:00:33 <ais523> I think we're agreeing
11:01:07 <ehird> it's just that apt is really good for a centralised package manager, so it annoys me when people complain about it...
11:01:32 <ehird> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
11:01:33 <ehird> 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
11:01:34 <ehird> 24 25 26 27 28 29 30
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11:03:41 <ehird> hmm... there's blood under my nail
11:03:44 <ehird> hope it doesn't leak out
11:03:57 <fizzie> Psst: there's blood INSIDE you, too.
11:03:58 <Deewiant> I was going to test 09-1752 in Mycology's DATE tests but decided I'm not that anal
11:05:54 <ehird> are you another anal instead?
11:07:29 <ehird> Maybe I'll install Arch in VM.
11:07:41 <ehird> Much more satisfying to get it working properly.
11:09:50 <ehird> otoh i have not the patiene to go through base and remove the crap that annoys me. bleah.
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11:32:45 <ehird> Well, X starts with radeonhd if I do "sudo X" manually and twm, xclock run.
11:32:50 <ehird> xterm still fucks up, sigh.
11:34:09 <ehird> Anyway, hi. Console mode has oppressively large fonts.
11:35:11 <ehird> #archlinux in summary:
11:35:23 <ehird> <me> As detailed description of the problem as I can think of.
11:35:25 <Deewiant> Since you're not in the mood for guessing: Mathematica
11:35:30 <ehird> <other> You didn't give any info.
11:35:42 <ehird> <me> Can you clarify as to what sort of information I should give?
11:35:49 <ehird> * deafening silence
11:36:01 <ais523> Deewiant: what does the % do?
11:36:09 <ais523> I can figure the rest of it, I think
11:36:31 <ais523> "raise all elements of the previous result to the 4th power"
11:37:04 <ehird> # = arg1, ^4 = obvs power, & postfix = lambda, /@ = map, % = prev
11:37:14 <ehird> {x^4} map previous
11:37:34 <ehird> it's just like J, except without the interesting paradigm or concise code
11:37:36 <ais523> ofc, it would be simpler in Underlambda
11:37:45 <ais523> which is saying something
11:38:17 <fizzie> It would be "ans.^4" in Matlab, but that's rather a special case of the elementwise-exponentiation operator.
11:38:45 <ais523> (4^)e I think in Underlambda
11:38:59 <ais523> and in Haskell, rather similar but with a different notation
11:39:21 <ehird> sigh, predictably the person who whined at me has not said a peep since
11:39:25 <ehird> hit and run complainer
11:39:42 <fizzie> Misread "hit-and-run compiler".
11:39:54 <ehird> that would be gcc. :P
11:40:13 <fizzie> "Oh god, what happened here?!" "GCC."
11:41:17 <ehird> i feel that way often.
11:41:27 <ehird> ok, that's a lie, but i would if i was in the habit of developing in c
11:41:43 <ehird> but i'm not into the whole masochism thing any more, you know?
11:43:00 <ehird> looks like you guys get to debug my system!
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11:43:28 <ehird> not that I expect anyone to know, google certainly didn't
11:43:48 <ehird> I get BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation) while doing X_OpenFont in xterm, without it popping up any window
11:44:03 <ehird> also, xedit immediately bus errors before doing squat.
11:44:10 <ehird> i have no doubt there are other issues. wtf.
11:46:59 <ehird> um, the stock X text editor.
11:47:09 <ehird> oh, I forgot: twm works fine
11:47:23 <ehird> it can manage as many xclocks as i want, because that works.
11:48:10 <ehird> but i'll try xterm in gdb
11:48:56 <ehird> can't read symbols from libxcb
11:53:18 <ais523> I suppose clocking the processor by hand would be too slow
11:53:23 <ais523> and you might not have a notated debugging dump
11:53:46 <ehird> i had the truncated thing with xkb or something else too. i wonder what the hell it is.
11:55:36 <ehird> ... but really, this is a popular consumer machine with relatively standard hardware once you've booted up
11:55:51 <ehird> the fact that I'm having to do this shit doesn't reflect well on arch's polish level
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11:58:53 <ehird> i can't even start to think about how i'd debug such an odd problem
11:59:14 <Deewiant> strace, see if anything weird fails
12:01:25 <Deewiant> X_OpenFont isn't a system call
12:03:30 <Deewiant> I'd start by reinstalling everything font-related, something might just have been corrupted
12:03:46 <ehird> The resulting file is so long I have no idea wher to look.
12:04:02 <ehird> It's looking at icon files and finding they don't exist at this point.
12:04:10 <ehird> I don't know why it is doing that. It is xterm.
12:04:14 <Deewiant> grep for where it prints BadAlloc and see if anything failed near that.
12:05:03 <ehird> That's at the end. And the answer is yes, but I don't know what the hell it is because it's all buried in a sea of random crap involving \0 a lot and font names.
12:05:23 <ehird> It's trying to read something from FD 3 and getting resource temporarily unavailable.
12:05:47 <ehird> It opens /dev/ptmx right before that.
12:06:11 <ehird> So, uh, I know what's failing, except I have no idea what the hell /dev/ptmx is or why this is happening.
12:06:45 <ehird> So it's trying to write something about fonts to a pseudoterminal and failing.
12:06:55 <ehird> I don't have a clue.
12:07:21 <ehird> Okay, it ... writevs... to it with something about the fonts and...
12:07:31 <ehird> ...I really don't know. This is hopeless. I'll try xedit.
12:07:55 <ehird> EFAULT bad address on the exec() line that starts up xedit.
12:09:25 <ehird> Googling is bringing up absolutely nothing.
12:10:32 <Deewiant> I found http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:riZzgIDtKTIJ:forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-511364-start-0.html+x_openfont+badalloc&cd=16&hl=en&ct=clnk quite quickly
12:10:44 <Deewiant> But it just says that he rebuilt everything and then it worked.
12:11:22 <ehird> Windows: Turn it off and on again.
12:11:31 <ehird> Gentoo: Rebuild world again.
12:11:49 <ehird> Anyway, I can't copy-paste on the console :-(
12:11:53 <ehird> Can you make a tinyurl?
12:14:54 <ehird> Is it possible to purge pacman of downloaded files for a group?
12:14:58 <ehird> Would like it to download X again...
12:15:05 <fizzie> Few weeks ago we were in a bus at the terminal station; time came for the bus to leave, it moved a dozen centimetres and prompty hung up.
12:15:07 <fizzie> So the bus driver shouted to passengers that it's refusing to switch gears, and he's going to try turning it off and on again; he did that, and after the bus was rebooted it again worked just fine.
12:15:35 <fizzie> Must be one aspect of that "ubiquitous computing" thing, bringing the reboot-troubleshooting to the real world too.
12:17:43 <Deewiant> pacman -Scc cleans the whole cache
12:18:19 <ehird> It is probably fruitless; I can remove the top-level X packages but not easily their dependencies.
12:18:22 <Deewiant> pacman -Syy X might force a redownload, not sure
12:18:55 <ehird> Of every single relevant dependency? I didn't know they were putting strong AI in package managers these days.
12:20:25 <ehird> xorg-foo depends on libxbutt depends on libxblah which contains the problem.
12:20:33 <ehird> pacman -R xorg doesn't remove libxblah, so it stays.
12:21:00 <ehird> Yeah; reinstalled the top-level xorg packages, no damn change.
12:22:57 <ais523> package managers have an Rss feed nowadays?
12:24:19 <Deewiant> Maybe you had some wrong-bittiness stuff somewhere or something.
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12:26:45 <ehird> hello from irssi from xterm from twm from black background
12:26:57 <ehird> from X11 from startx from bash from login
12:27:18 <fizzie> from your mom. Wait, that's just a boring true statement.
12:27:37 <ehird> Yeah, my mom wrote login.
12:27:54 <ais523> and your grandma wrote grub
12:28:09 <ehird> My great grandmother is Linus Torvalds.
12:28:30 <ehird> So, I guess I should install yaourt.
12:28:42 <ehird> Anyone know of any good linux webkit browsers
12:29:06 <ehird> I guess I could try that new-fangled uzbl thing all the Arch kids are raving about.
12:29:35 <ehird> Oh, but look, it's in AUR. So I need to install yaourt.
12:29:46 <ehird> That program with the annoying policy of calling sudo for you.
12:30:27 <ehird> It builds packages from AUR for you, and then installs them with pacman.
12:30:39 <Deewiant> There are other AUR-builders, I think.
12:30:41 <ehird> It calls sudo for you so that you don't build packages at root.
12:30:56 <ehird> Still, an administrative command without sudo in front feels wrong; can't it drop privileges for that part?
12:31:24 <Deewiant> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR_Helpers
12:32:23 <ehird> I have a worrying feeling that 90% of those are look-I-wrote-a-short-unworking-script-it's-officially-a-project-now things.
12:33:15 <ehird> The default xterm font is so horribly small.
12:34:41 <ehird> Heh, I can't use pacman-color because it requires a pacman 0.1 versions older.
12:36:31 <ehird> Ohkayy, uzbl isn't in AUR either, so yaourt tells me in unreadable yellow-on-white.
12:36:40 <ehird> I'll just install, uh, what are you hip kids using?
12:37:33 <ehird> Maybe Arora. Arora's good, isn't it? Supposed to be, at least.
12:38:18 <ehird> Deewiant: Powerpill does sure spew a lot about how it's making your download ohso-fast.
12:38:38 <Deewiant> Well, it's noticeable for me since my local mirror can't handle my bandwidth.
12:38:39 <ehird> 963kiB/s. That's the highest my connection's ever reached.
12:39:09 <ehird> "I will pummel you with my bandwidth-shaped residential connection, puny server!"
12:39:38 <ehird> Wait wait WAIT is that qt 3?
12:39:43 <ehird> If that is qt 3 that is so not cool man.
12:39:58 <ais523> heh, AnMaster's a KDE 3 fan, isn't he?
12:39:59 <ehird> It just looks like 3 by default.
12:40:12 <ais523> and KDE and Qt version numbers match IIRC
12:40:15 <ehird> It looks acceptable, anyway.
12:40:30 <ehird> That font is actually, I feel bad saying this, but I'll be honest, that font looks damn good unantialiased.
12:40:39 <ehird> I think it's bitmap helvetica or whatever.
12:41:27 <ehird> Okay, Arora is fast and stuff.
12:41:35 <ehird> The controls are a bit ugly.
12:41:53 <ehird> Also some links aren't underlined.
12:43:33 <ehird> If this no-antialiasing-until-selecting bug on some pages were fixed this would bef ine.
12:44:16 <ehird> Deewiant: what's that thing to remove and all unused dependencies btw?
12:44:20 <ehird> that you said before
12:44:27 <ehird> No, for one package
12:44:47 <Deewiant> I don't think I said that before since I'm not sure how to do that :-P
12:45:12 <Deewiant> pacman -Rss removes xorg and all of its dependencies, including explicitly installed ones
12:45:39 <ais523> ugh, we seem to have a new spambot
12:45:47 <ais523> it's just spamming "doors.txt;10;15"
12:45:49 <ehird> wonder if powerpill has a ... uh ... thingy
12:45:53 <ais523> with nonsense edit summaries
12:45:53 <Deewiant> pacman -Rs would remove the unneeded ones only, I think
12:46:12 <ehird> I need to install urxvt and set the background black.
12:46:16 <ehird> So much stuff assumes it's black..
12:46:21 <ehird> Also a bigger font.
12:46:29 <ehird> Also, um, soemthing that isn't twm. Would be nice.
12:46:50 <ehird> If by > you mean <.
12:46:59 <Deewiant> twm + xedit is all you need in an X system
12:47:08 <ehird> Also wtf is it with powerpill going to a crawl every now and then?
12:47:15 <ehird> It's been from 0B to 4kiB recently.
12:47:15 <Deewiant> And xeyes to know where your pointer is
12:47:51 <Deewiant> It tends to slow down at the end when it's only downloading from one mirror or so
12:47:58 <Deewiant> And that mirror is a slow one.
12:48:20 <Deewiant> At least, that's what I think it is.
12:49:15 <ehird> Well you can't customize Midori's toolbar.
12:49:22 <ehird> Shouldn't really have expected more of a GTK app :-P
12:49:59 <ehird> Also the interface font is irritatingly just big enough to be ugly.
12:50:32 <ehird> Yeah, this is just way too ugly, I'm installing that whateveritis that makes gtk stuf fuse the qt theme.
12:51:07 <Deewiant> GTK fuses with the Qt theme creating QtK
12:51:33 <ehird> WTF, Midori has an Opera-style speed dial.
12:51:43 <ehird> And a whole bunch of useless preferences; is this meant to be simple?
12:52:22 <ehird> "Qt won't apply QGtkStyle correctly if GTK is using the GTK-QT-Engine."
12:52:32 <ehird> This clearly ignores the large segment of users who would like all interface elements to be fractal.
12:52:58 <ehird> Sweet, gtk-qt-engine pulled in both gnome and kde stuff
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12:54:35 <ehird> Deewiant: How does powerpill get speeds >900kiB/s on my connection which never gets them
12:55:01 <Deewiant> It downloads from multiple servers which all upload at >900KiB/s
12:55:19 <ehird> *kiB, you anti-SI freak.
12:55:33 <Deewiant> k is kilo, Ki is kibi, there is no ki.
12:55:41 <ehird> Hey, gtk-qt-engine apps are uglier than Raleigh.
12:55:43 <ehird> Quite an achievement.
12:55:56 * ehird obliterates that and midori, asks you for the remove-unused thing
12:56:13 <ehird> Deewiant: Also, i is a suffix on prefixes that changes them from binary to decimal.
12:56:22 <ehird> kis = 1024 seconds. kiB = 1024 bytes.
12:56:42 <ehird> So what was that removey thing?
12:56:48 <Deewiant> Since when? And since when is k binary?
12:57:08 <ehird> k isn't binary; that's why you suffix it with i.
12:57:09 <ais523> it's the i that's binary
12:57:10 <fizzie> Well, IEC says the prefix for kibi is "Ki", I'd trust them over an ehird any day of the week.
12:57:15 <ehird> k = 1000. ki = 1024.
12:57:18 <ehird> fizzie: My method is more consistent.
12:57:28 <Deewiant> ehird: "changes them from binary to decimal"
12:57:31 <ehird> It's a simple modification of SI: the suffix i after a prefix makes it binary.
12:57:34 <fizzie> Your more consistent, more logical method is also more nonstandard.
12:57:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, flip that.
12:57:52 <ehird> fizzie: But SI is mostly consistent and logical, so let's go with my version, that keeps within its spirit.
12:59:40 * ehird ponders whether he should ever ever ever remove history.
12:59:45 <ehird> It's history, after all!
13:00:12 <ehird> "Use the default search engine as fallback when the URL given by the user is invalid"
13:00:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Why noooo
13:01:18 <ehird> Ugh wtf Arora, Arial 16 as the default font? Courier New 16 as the fixed width?
13:01:39 <ehird> Would be nice if the bitmap Helvetica sizes >9 were as pretty.
13:01:45 <ehird> Though 12 is pretty decent.
13:01:51 <Deewiant> Typically it means I've typoed a bookmark-keyword and a google search for "ge foobar" when I tried to do a google image search for "foobar" isn't that helpful
13:02:03 <ehird> I don't have bookmark keywods.
13:03:20 <ehird> Argh I forgot about that arora bug
13:05:14 <ehird> Argh, it's really fucking annoing the missing underlines
13:07:03 <ehird> Deewiant: so does powerpill really download from 40-odd servers at once?
13:07:17 <Deewiant> I don't know about 40-odd, but more than one certainly
13:08:17 <ehird> Wow, I wrote an .Xresources file for black background, white foreground and no scrollbar in URxvt, merged it, and ran urxvt without looking up a single thing.
13:08:30 <ehird> I conclude that X resources aren't exceedingly crappy as an interface.
13:09:27 <ehird> I'm actually disappointed in myeslf for liking a Qt interface with the default, KDE 3-style widgets and unantialiased bitmap fonts :-P
13:10:03 <fizzie> Your disappointment is really fruuging up your spelling skills.
13:10:28 <ehird> No, that's this keyboard.
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13:10:57 <ehird> Now with 100% more urxvt!
13:12:53 <Deewiant> Run stuff in screen so you don't have to restart it all
13:13:20 <ehird> Extreme apathy dictates
13:13:41 <Deewiant> Or use cryopid and see how that works out
13:16:31 <ehird> holy fuck, xfontsel has the most confusing UI ever
13:18:51 <ehird> You know what's funny?
13:19:00 <ehird> The dark blue that ls uses by default is unreadable on black terminals.
13:19:03 <ehird> irssi is unreadable on white terminals.
13:19:07 <ehird> I'm not fucking using a gray terminal.
13:19:30 <fizzie> Just twiddle in some better RGB values for the colors.
13:19:49 <fizzie> I'm not sure xfontsel is that much more confusing than those X font descriptor strings inherently.
13:20:18 * ehird wonders why he can't set the urxvt font in .Xres-- would help to merge, wouldn't it.
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.background: black
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.foreground: white
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.scrollBar: none
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.font: -misc-fixed-*-*-normal-*-15-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
13:21:16 <ehird> *Rxvt.color12: #A0A0FF
13:21:26 <ehird> thanks for the color12 line
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13:27:56 <ehird> alas, I can't find a way to instruct arora that middle click should open a new window
13:28:02 <ehird> and it still has that underline problem...
13:28:09 <ehird> I'll try chromium, see what it's like on linux these days
13:31:38 <ehird> [ehird@ding ~]$ chromium-browser
13:31:39 <ehird> [11573:11573:3983975350:FATAL:/b/slave/chromium-rel-linux-64/build/src/app/gfx/font_skia.cc(90)] Check failed: tf. Could not find font: Helvetica
13:31:42 <ehird> /usr/bin/chromium-browser: line 4: 11573 Trace/breakpoint trap ./chrome --enable-greasemonkey --enable-user-scripts "$@"
13:33:03 <ehird> # Man is much better than us at figuring this out
13:33:07 <ehird> what's that supposed to mean?
13:33:14 <ehird> it sure can't find the pages in /usr/local/man
13:35:16 <ehird> looks like a bloated piece of crap!
13:35:36 <ehird> man_db.conf nowadays
13:35:56 <ehird> but it should handle it if i can get shit in $PATH.
13:36:46 <ehird> I'm getting flickering artifacts on my screen. I hope that isn't radeonhd.
13:39:26 <ehird> but it probably is.
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00:21:28 <Sgeo> My classmates are idiots
00:21:50 <Sgeo> They were talking about another class, where a box with lights was hooked up to the computer, and they had to control it via C++
00:22:00 <Sgeo> One of them said that the box must understand C++
00:22:17 <Sgeo> They eventually decided that the box understands assembly (thinking assembly was machine code)
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01:04:11 <Pthing> i don't like the chinese box either
01:06:29 <coppro> Sgeo: this is where you have fun
01:06:39 <coppro> print out the assembly and stick the box on it
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01:07:09 <Sgeo> coppro, I'm not in that class with them
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02:28:06 <ehird> arora aaaaalmost works, and it aaaaalmost works a bit less if you don't want to use tabs :(
02:34:32 <ehird> i do not like falling
02:34:49 <Sgeo> oerjan, I ended up putting the punchline as my Facebook status
02:37:46 <coppro> for some reason, Arora was briefly installed on my computer; wonder why it got taken off
02:37:54 * Sgeo misread that as Agora
02:38:57 <ehird> Arora is good except the toolbar grpahics are a bit cheesy, link underlines (especially on google sites for some reason) sometimes don't appear unless you click them or select them as text,
02:39:08 <ehird> and you can't define middle-click as open in new windo
02:39:14 <ehird> that's all i can think of atm
02:39:47 <ehird> coppro: yeah, I use tabs
02:40:01 <ehird> you know, it's managing windows :P
02:40:12 <coppro> does it have Ctrl+Tab?
02:40:32 <ehird> you can rebind the keys, but yes; it's one button more, though
02:42:02 * Sgeo goes through convolutions to avoid spoiling the joke in the title
02:42:52 <oerjan> er, what? now you HAVE to tell us.
02:42:57 <ehird> it's also the only tiling WM with decent mouse support imo, which is useful when web browsing
02:43:05 <ehird> to avoid context switching from the mouse
02:43:24 <Sgeo> oerjan, um, you read it, apparently
02:43:32 * Sgeo posted it on reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/9kyqr/hit_me_with_a_pie_here_you_go/
02:43:36 <Sgeo> Sucky title, I know
02:43:52 <ehird> Duh, how come you didn't know he meant reddit title, oerjan
02:43:54 <ehird> Aren't you psychic
02:43:56 <ehird> Like everyone else
02:44:15 <oerjan> yes, but a very slow psychic
02:44:30 <oerjan> i'll get it one of these days, i'm sure
02:47:01 <ehird> coppro: the WM is ion3plus, which I have qualms about using due to its author and utterly ridiculous license clauses (though he recently removed the timeout-for-new-versions thing), but on the other hand no other tiling WM I've tried is even close to as usable
02:48:01 <ehird> oh, an arora problem I forgot: it blocks popups silently, so you can't choose to let one through if you want it
02:51:03 <ehird> yeah, it's annoying, but really I don't mind too much
02:51:14 <ehird> I don't really click "detach this window" type stuff
02:51:21 <ehird> besides, it won't block things like javascript:window.open, prolly
02:51:23 <ehird> just tricksier stuff
02:56:40 <ehird> one thing ion handles very well is auxillary wnidows to the current one
02:56:47 <ehird> it basically overlays it along the bottom of the window
03:00:23 <Ilari> The reasons why I don't use Arora: It sends referrer unconditionally and doesn't let to configure TLS (and doesn't have Links2-like "who cares" attitude to TLS).
03:00:38 <ehird> OH NOES!!1125612 REFERER!
03:00:53 <ehird> But, err, what's the TLS problem?
03:00:56 <ehird> coppro: SSL thing.
03:03:54 <Ilari> Can't be configured to require PFS. Even Firefox can be configured that way. Links2 can't be configured so either, but it doesn't matter as Links2 seems to think that proper place for certificates is /dev/null.
03:05:32 <ehird> My only problem with Arora is... well, the ones I said.
03:06:05 <Ilari> Perfect Forward Security.
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03:07:07 <Ilari> Meaning, key exchange algorithm is DHE, ECDHE or SRP (not that any web browser supports that).
03:23:47 <ehird> I wonder if qt has some sort of generic tool to rebind things like mouse clicks.
03:25:29 <Sgeo> Isn't there some OS project that uses Qt, so that the OS itself is in C, and applications are in C++, to prevent the OS from doing GUI stuff directly, or something like that?
03:25:52 <ehird> Whatever it is, it sounds brain damaged.
03:26:54 <Sgeo> It might be the way I'm describing it
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03:39:53 <pikhq> Mmm, wasabi peas...
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04:32:49 <Gracenotes> I just can't get in the mood for eating them :/
04:43:29 <Gregor> Rub them in your eyes first.
04:43:41 <Gregor> That will get you in the mood to eat them.
04:43:51 <Gregor> Just trust me on this one.
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04:49:52 <ehird> like the biggest meh ever dreamed of
04:52:31 <ehird> i know you were talking recently, i checked the logs
04:52:34 <ehird> you cannot fool me
04:53:28 <Gregor> I'm busy murdering my wrists.
04:53:44 <ehird> Gregor: that's a very pretentious way to reveal to us that you cut yourself.
04:54:13 <pikhq> Gregor: In your *eyes*? Ouch.
04:54:42 <ehird> Yes, Gregor is murdering his wrists in his eyes :P
04:55:08 <ehird> Gregor: You know, you've lost your R-zest.
04:55:33 <Gregor> I can murder my wrists well enough with two keyboards and no knives.
04:56:20 -!- Gregor has changed nick to GregoR.
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04:56:31 <ehird> Sure thing, Grego Richards.
04:56:35 <ehird> Your name sounds... Italian.
04:56:52 -!- GregoR has changed nick to Gregor.
04:57:06 <ehird> Hello, Gregor $*&~Segmentation fault
05:04:20 <ehird> ff35fg4g4g54g41fg445455445545
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05:07:12 <ehird> hmm meh doesn't fit really
05:07:19 <ehird> these things are Important
05:09:43 <Gracenotes> ehird, I made this null terminated string just for y6oD2^xk%hV@[^yZ7Ju+<Ned\Q+s)Q92a&j[OT)3"R%
05:12:41 <ehird> Completione une stagnation avoile todelo...
05:16:08 <ehird> Deplorus vici vindica vortas.
05:22:15 <ehird> Note: All three of the above lines mean the same thing.
06:01:57 <ehird> apparently colinux is way faster than cygwin
06:02:25 <ehird> and if you use xming you could make it like cygwin/x...
06:24:03 <coppro> if only you could go the other way around
06:24:41 <ehird> seamless virtualbox or sth.
06:25:04 <ehird> you can mount your host on /
06:25:16 <ehird> and windows on w:, say
06:25:31 <coppro> no, because it requires virtualization
06:25:42 <ehird> so what, the cpu code is running on your cpu directly
06:25:42 <coppro> (then again, my new computer has real virtualization support. Yay!)
06:25:46 <ehird> just the hardware is virtualised
06:26:01 <ehird> sure, it's slower as far as non-number-crunching, but what are you trying to do, play a 3d game?
06:26:06 <coppro> ehird: processor without virtualization support = boo
06:26:11 <ehird> coppro: well ditch it :P
06:28:28 <coppro> on the new computer, I will certainly be using a properly virtualized OS
06:29:07 <coppro> because it's better than dual boot?
06:29:23 <ehird> what programs do you need to run? it's not like games work very well
06:30:59 <coppro> nah, no games for the most part
06:31:18 <coppro> though if I ever figure out how to do it, getting windows to boot from both within and without the virtual machine would be +++
06:31:39 <coppro> also, wtf on the VirtualBox license: (3) The Product is not designed, licensed or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility and Sun and its licensors disclaim any express or implied warranty of fitness for such uses.
06:31:40 <ehird> then what programs do you use...?
06:31:47 <coppro> ehird: lots of stupid .NET stuff
06:31:55 <coppro> that uses WPF and thus can't use Mono
06:32:07 <coppro> I don't feel the need to tell you *shrug*
06:32:18 <ehird> it just seems needless 90% of the time.
06:32:31 <coppro> I certainly wish it was
06:33:04 <ehird> well true, AutomaticFurryScatPornSearcherAndDownloader v2 WPF Edition is probably pretty vital, I understand
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06:35:56 <coppro> ehird: do you have any experience getting Windows to work from both within and without a VM
06:36:15 <ehird> you mean... just getting windows to work?
06:36:37 <coppro> I mean dealing with having Windows thinking it has two hardware profiles to deal with
06:36:51 <coppro> Windows has an irritating idea that it should only work on a single machine
06:37:05 <ehird> yeah, umm, that's not an unreasonable assumption
06:37:11 <ehird> install in vm use disk
06:37:14 <ehird> install on disk use vm
06:37:28 <coppro> when you use whichever it wasn't installed on, you get hardware errors
06:37:34 <coppro> because it didn't install the drivers
06:37:44 <ehird> coppro: install the drivers for the other hw in the vm
06:37:45 <coppro> and if you install them, it erases the other ones
06:37:54 <ehird> coppro: copy them away including registry before installing
06:37:58 <ehird> then copy back, check they still work
06:38:08 <coppro> (note: this is all XP experience and I will be using Vista *shudder*, then 7)
06:38:19 <ehird> pirate 7 immediately, btw
06:38:32 <ehird> not worth fucking with vista
06:38:48 <coppro> 7 comes out in a month?
06:39:02 <ehird> so what? the final is out on bittorrent
06:39:06 <ehird> windows 7 ultimate
06:39:08 <coppro> yes, I know, just wondering
06:39:32 <coppro> unlike lots of people, I have this thing against randomly torrenting stuff
06:40:12 <ehird> oh right, i haven't bended your brain into anti-monopolist, pro-competition shape yet and removed your Own the Moon 'Cuz the State Says So lobe :-P
06:40:48 <coppro> Own the Moon 'Cuz the State Says So lobe?
06:41:14 <ehird> it's the lobe that makes you think if the state claims it's selling off parts of the moon, it is a universal truth that those parts of the moon are owned by whoever buys them
06:41:39 <ehird> it gets invoked for s/the moon/platonic information space/, but that's a bug
06:41:47 <ehird> although i suspect it's a backdoor, wake up sheeple.
06:42:37 <coppro> oh, I don't have that lobe
06:42:45 <coppro> I also don't believe that torrenting is always bad
06:42:51 <ehird> au contraire, you respect copyright
06:43:05 <ehird> considering you defended it...
06:43:09 <coppro> I said that I recognize the necessity of the principle
06:43:19 <ehird> if that isn't defending copyright I don't know what is
06:43:32 <coppro> defending copyright and obeying it as it's written are different things
06:44:04 <ehird> the only way to achieve the "principle" is indeed the state having a monopoly on giving away monopolies on parts of the platonic realm of information, that it cannot touch in any way
06:44:30 <coppro> it's too late to start this discussion again
06:44:37 <ehird> that's what she said.
06:44:40 <coppro> important this is, I won't torrent stuff just because it's convenient
06:45:26 <coppro> there are other reasons I'll torrent, but that's not of them
06:45:46 <ehird> I torrent stuff because it's more convenient than any other way of getting it, but that's only because I think copyright is illegitimate crazy talk and I wouldn't consider who owns the moon when planning an expedition there either
06:46:08 <ehird> I'm not aiming to be illegal, Microsoft are perfectly welcome to send me a free copy if they want
06:46:27 <coppro> My view of torrenting in general is this:
06:46:56 <coppro> - someone has put hard work and effort into the product I'm considering torrenting and deserves some form of compensation for it, usually (there are exceptions to this point)
06:47:33 <ehird> I'm aware of all your oh-but-it's-so-fair arguments for copyright, and if pretending the moon was owned by the USA brought happiness and unicorns to everyone's day-to-day life I still wouldn't.
06:48:08 <coppro> - If I believe the good is worth the price asked, there is a reason to go buy the damn thing (note: this is not necessarily mutually exclusive with torrenting)
06:48:16 <ehird> Besides, feeding money into Microsoft's horrible business practices strikes me as a far worse evil than pirating Windows.
06:48:34 <coppro> - If there is a political reason for it, it could sway me either way stronger than anything else
06:48:51 <coppro> for instance, I refuse to pay any money to the recording industry. At all.
06:49:08 <ehird> Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Microsoft is no better than the recording industry.
06:49:12 <coppro> small-time companies, sure. But I am /not/ paying for product coming out of an RIAA member
06:49:15 <ehird> Which is damn obvious.
06:50:15 <coppro> Microsoft, I'm unsure of yet. There's internal conflict
06:50:34 <coppro> And if the rumors about 7 are true, encouraging good product is a Good Thing
06:50:45 <ehird> Yeah, and that RIAA album might be damn good too.
06:51:10 <ehird> Everyone who worked on it did a great job. Yet you still won't pay for it, because the RIAA is evil - and therefore paying Microsoft for Windows 7 is inconsistent.
06:51:54 <coppro> Microsoft, as I said, has lots of internal conflict
06:52:29 <ehird> As an autonomous business it is sociopathic, destructive and evil: it should be in prison for life. Heck, in the current US legal system probably even sentenced to death.
06:52:47 <ehird> But corporations get a wild card, despite being considered legal persons.
06:53:05 <coppro> oh, based on history, sure
06:53:29 <ehird> Microsoft may not have the opportunity to reoffend right now, but that's just because of the world around it.
06:53:30 <coppro> (and I totally agree about corporations. The courts have the power to dissassemble corporations and should do it more willingly)
06:53:40 <coppro> ehird: nah, they're offending right now.
06:53:49 <ehird> coppro: Yes, but they're not on a murderous rampage.
06:53:53 <coppro> but they're like a drug addict trying to reform themselves
06:54:01 <ehird> Anyway, I would consider paying such a person to buy a painting they made abhorrent.
06:54:26 <ehird> coppro: maybe they're trying to stop smoking pot, but they're still doing heroin in private...
06:54:50 <ehird> Microsoft are just a really bad company.
06:55:14 <coppro> ehird: the fact is, right now, I'm willing to give Microsoft money for a good product.
06:55:39 <coppro> what /you/ think is completely irrelevant
06:55:43 <ehird> Have fun supporting the sociopathic, drug-using serial killer.
06:55:54 <ehird> I'm not exactly going to stop you...
06:56:14 <ehird> I hope that painting is really damn good.
06:56:15 <coppro> but I've spent long enough talking to you to know that you would if you could
06:56:26 <ehird> You are severely misguided.
06:57:12 <coppro> I don't think it would count as fascism
06:57:33 <ehird> You can give your money to whoever you want.
07:01:31 <coppro> the biggest thing about Microsoft now is they're threatened, I think they see that, and they're trying to deal with it. They're falling. And it's in my interests to cushion them (not going to say anything more on the subject; good night!)
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07:01:51 <ehird> Microsoft. Threatened.
07:02:30 <coppro> they're pulling an IBM
07:02:31 <ehird> Man that kool-aid must be good. Just, uh, so you know, if it's from a guy named Jim Jones I would, like, not drink it.
07:03:07 <ehird> So let's see... Microsoft, the threatened and falling company with a bad past and tons of internal conflict.
07:03:14 <ehird> Gee, I feel so warm and fuzzy now.
07:03:23 <coppro> internal conflict is a good thing
07:03:33 <ehird> Poor Microsoft ;_;
07:03:33 <coppro> anyway, I really need to get to bed
07:03:49 <coppro> ehird: odd as it sounds, I really do /not/ want to see them fail
07:04:10 <ehird> Yeah, those paintings are just way too good.
07:04:25 <ehird> But seriously, if you truly think Microsoft is threatened...
07:04:35 <ehird> well, you're certainly not reading anything unbiased
07:05:24 <coppro> Microsoft's doing what IBM did... I'll explain later. G'night for real this time.
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07:11:50 <ehird> we're weeping for microsoft
07:16:30 <fizzie> Oh? Are they in need of sympathy?
07:16:39 <ehird> yes, just ask coppro
07:16:51 <ehird> it's threatened, falling and it has huge internal conflict
07:17:03 <ehird> in conclusion, buy windows
07:18:25 <ehird> i had no idea it was so poor until coppro told it all :'(
07:20:23 <fizzie> Yes, I kind of thought they weren't doing so bad these days. Admittedly I haven't really been paying attention.
07:20:40 <ehird> that's the thing about these facts
07:20:45 <ehird> they're unrelated to actual evidence
07:20:50 <ehird> which is why they're so upsetting!
07:30:03 <ehird> holy shit i cantr move my leg down
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08:03:19 <augur> whatd you do to yourself
08:03:35 <ehird> i was sitting with my legs up, and tried to put it down and it didn't work :|
08:17:27 <fizzie> Heh, this graduate-school-funding-place application form has a length limit of 7500 characters (incl. whitespace, references) for the research plan; my plan is 7496 characters. (And it was originally about 13000 when written to another place with just "4-5 pages" length limit; was sorely tempted to use those txt msg abrvs 2 shrtn it.)
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10:44:49 <oklopol> (in private conversation, not by name, but anyway, small world)
10:54:03 <oklopol> also what's the opposite of nodding, i don't know it in any language
10:54:47 <oklopol> anyway it's weird to explain something to a dude who keeps antinodding, especially when you don't realize he means "yes" by it
10:55:51 <oklopol> felt like he asked for help, then silently judged me while i explained
10:56:03 <oklopol> which i suppose he could've done because it was homework, but anyway
10:56:23 <oklopol> foreigners are so weird, they ask for help
10:58:07 <oklopol> actually a few finns have done it too, although they rarely directly ask me to show my answers
10:58:17 <oklopol> so what's the weather like
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11:14:32 <ais523> it sounds like you're quoting me out of context
11:14:35 <oklopol> doesn't that happen when you're mentioned
11:14:37 <ais523> just I don't remember saying that
11:14:51 <ais523> oh no, my IRC ping is entirely visual
11:14:58 <ais523> flashing icons, flashing taskbar entries
11:15:05 <oklopol> oh, were your eyes burning then
11:15:13 <ais523> no, I'm used to being pinged
11:15:18 <ais523> mostly by annoying bots on other networks
11:15:28 <oklopol> your eyes will burn only if you aren't on the channel
11:15:45 <ais523> yes, but usually I'm not
11:15:54 <ais523> imagine a channel which is usually idle except a bot pings you every now and then
11:16:12 <oklopol> X burns, where X is your method of perception, if the medium you usually follow using X mentions you when you aren't currently on it
11:16:31 <ais523> a red icon and slowly pulsing taskbar isn't particularly burning
11:17:00 <oklopol> okay nevermind, i just wanted to tell you i mentioned you
11:17:27 <ais523> ok, so you pinged me just to tell me that you'd pinged me?
11:17:35 <ais523> that's the sort of logic that only #esoteric would come up with
11:18:26 <oklopol> i'm not sure i agree, i'm just saying "read logs, so i don't have to repeat myself"
11:18:48 <ais523> oh, I didn't realise the request to read logs
11:18:51 <ais523> I hardly ever do nowadays
11:18:53 <oklopol> i mean, as a suggestion, it's not *that* interesting.
11:19:06 <oklopol> that's why i asked about the burning
11:19:16 <ais523> nothing happened between me joining and your ping, apart from Patashu leaving
11:19:49 <oklopol> by my definition your ears will not burn if you're on the channel when you're pinged.
11:20:19 <ais523> it's weird being just enough of a celebrity that people occasionally recognise you in the street, and you have no idea who they are
11:21:31 <oklopol> well, i suppose i'd like it more than actually knowing more people :P
11:22:25 <oklopol> the problem with uninteresting people is i'm great at pretending like i'm enjoying the conversation, and i'm a pleaser.
11:24:02 <ais523> I normally try to get involved in the conversation
11:24:21 <ais523> hmm... if you dislike a conversation, you can get rid of it by steering the subject to something the other person doesn't understand
11:25:17 <oklopol> with my definition of interesting people, that works perfectly.
11:26:25 <ais523> interesting people = people who might actually try to understand this channel?
11:27:54 <oklopol> well i'm interested in many things, any of those
11:28:19 <oklopol> well, some people are interested just for their personality, naturally, otherwise finding a gf might be kinda hard
11:29:11 <oklopol> (i promise i'll stop being sexist when i see the first female mathematician that doesn't suck)
11:32:32 <oklopol> the esolang prof didn't know sk calculus
11:34:12 <fizzie> Our crypto-mathematician, who happens to be female -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisa_Nyberg -- didn't *seem* sucky, but I wouldn't really know, based on just the lectures of a single crypto-intro-course.
11:36:56 <oklopol> i'm fairly sure some of the students don't suck either, but i only know the ones that complain loudly about the hardness of the courses
11:37:08 <oklopol> which guys do just as much
11:37:10 <fizzie> I probably have already mentioned this, but I think she used to publish the course exam questions in advance, AES-encrypted.
11:37:32 <ais523> in the hope that people would try to brute-force the encryption?
11:38:36 <fizzie> In the "hope" that someone intelligently breaks AES, I guess; it's not a very great hope, but it sure is more likely than plain brute-forcing a 256-bit symmetric key.
11:38:58 <ais523> well, she has to store the key somewhere
11:39:03 <ais523> maybe it's to encourage people to hack into her computer:?
11:39:21 <fizzie> Yes, the same place where the unencrypted questions are stored, most likely.
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13:32:05 <oerjan> <Gregor> Rub them in your eyes first. <-- i take it your eyes work about similarly weirdly as your nose...
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20:42:46 <zzo38> I have some idea for esolangs based on mahjong game.
20:42:57 <zzo38> I might write it more later, on the wiki
20:44:15 <zzo38> Like, you could have one "Mahjong operator" act on two inputs and one output. If the input is [3man,3man] then the output is [3man] and if the input is [5sou,4sou] then the output can be [3sou] or [6sou]
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20:51:24 <zzo38> So I would have to make it multiple outputs sometimes, too
20:51:46 <zzo38> And possibly more than two inputs, also.
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20:58:36 <augur> guys, would it be correct to say that continuations make parallelism easier?
21:02:11 <ais523> they'd certainly make implementing it easier
21:02:17 <ais523> on a non-parallel system
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21:36:57 <Ilari> zzo38: In latter case, is the output deterministic, (pseudo)random or nondeterministic?
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21:53:46 <zzo38> Ilari: I'm not sure. I think it could be made deterministic
21:54:11 <zzo38> Like, with multiple program thread and can communicate afterward together too
21:55:12 <Ilari> zzo38: Mahjongg operator is affected by all threads and forms "covert channel" between threads?
21:57:45 <zzo38> That could be a possibility.
21:58:18 <zzo38> Also, the input could be a list instead of just 2 entries. And the output could also just be a list, without multithreading or anything.
21:59:02 <zzo38> For example: [4sou,5sou] -> [3sou,6sou]; [1man,1man] -> [1man]; [4pin,5pin,6pin,7pin] -> [4pin,7pin];
21:59:50 <zzo38> Because, if you have 4567 then you have a incomplete sequence and a pair, and you have to complete the pair with a 4 or 7, where the 567 or 456 would then be a sequence.
22:00:21 <zzo38> And when you have honors, there is no sequence, of course.
22:00:57 <zzo38> Example: [haku,haku,chun,chun] -> [haku,chun]
22:08:48 <zzo38> You can make everything a list. So, applying the mahjong operator twice to [2sou,2sou,3sou,3sou] would result in [1sou,4sou]
22:19:48 <Ilari> And in non-turing-complete front: BLOOP augmented with Conway arrow operator.
22:23:37 <Ilari> Would be capable of expressing g_n. g_1 is already unimaginable. g_64 is Graham's number... So it grows fast.
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23:38:07 <zzo38> Have you used "ImageMagick"?
23:38:34 <AnMaster> I've used convert from imagemagick yes
23:38:52 <AnMaster> it is quite a strange question to ask, considering how common the software is
23:39:16 <zzo38> I have used ImageMagick for not only image processing, but for audio processing, too.
23:40:13 <zzo38> It doesn't support audio formats, but if you have a raw audio file, you can load it as a file with a height of 1 and do processing on it.
23:40:29 <AnMaster> I would never had thought of that
23:40:42 <zzo38> imconvert -size 84622x1 -depth 8 r:- -channel R -fx "p{i+20*sin(i/50),j}" r:-
23:40:52 <zzo38> There, that's a kind of flanger effect.
23:42:02 <AnMaster> everywhere I seen it, it was just "convert"
23:42:11 <AnMaster> so that would break scripts using it
23:42:29 <zzo38> I prefixed all the files with "im" to make it work with Windows. On UNIX systems you would not prefix with "im"
23:42:57 <AnMaster> oh maybe "convert" is an existing command on windows *shrug*
23:45:18 <zzo38> I think they could add built-in audio support with red channell for the left channel, and green for the right channel. ImageMagick has FFT (although an external library has to be added to use it), and other stuff, so it should work.
23:45:54 <zzo38> The other feature I wanted in ImageMagick is a utility to put formatted text onto a image, including with masking and symbol-fonts, like Magic Set Editor does.
23:47:38 <coppro> zzo38: I work on MSE :)
23:48:16 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, I think I read the name "coppro" somewhere in the MSE, but I wouldn't quite remember exactly
23:49:33 <zzo38> Like, image magick text formatting might have a file with \ for each format, such as \^ for superscript, \_ for subscript, \b for bold, \i for italic, \z for symbols, \s for relative size, -mask for mask image, and so on
23:49:41 <coppro> AnMaster: no, as in CCG
23:51:13 <zzo38> ImageMagick has enough functions to render the card, except for a utility to write formatted text in the same way.
00:00:16 <coppro> I finally figured out how to convince automake to do precompiled headers!
00:00:23 <coppro> It's hideous, but it works!
00:00:28 <zzo38> I know about GIMP, but I prefer ImageMagick.
00:03:30 <Gregor> coppro: Isn't it just like include_HEADERS=<your .gch files here> then .h.gch:\n\t<your GCC line here>
00:04:19 <coppro> Maybe they'll add it eventually
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00:05:46 <coppro> but for now, it's a nasty hack
00:06:18 <AnMaster> what is the point? for most realistic C header examples you don't save very much
00:06:40 <coppro> AnMaster: this is a C++ project; I think I just cut compile time in 3
00:06:54 <AnMaster> when stuff like #inludes in headers change
00:07:20 <Sgeo> I renamed the old file, and then Pidgin makes a new file.. it's corrupt
00:07:26 <coppro> nah, the precompiled header is always first
00:07:44 <coppro> as long as you remember that, things are good
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00:08:51 <AnMaster> coppro, what if cflages changes? Or GCC version
00:09:06 <coppro> AnMaster: then it's recompiled as it normally would be
00:09:18 <AnMaster> well, that would be mostly an issue if the file was installed
00:09:29 <coppro> no, this is not for a library
00:09:41 <coppro> it would be an issue if it was installed
00:09:45 <coppro> but fortunately it's not :)
00:12:08 <coppro> there is only one flaw
00:12:32 <coppro> one of the dummy files is getting distributed because I can't but it in nodist_SOURCES or else it gets built after the rest of the project
00:12:45 <coppro> and the precompiled headers must always be first
00:27:58 <zzo38> Is there command-line programs to render text on images like I described?
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00:34:34 <coppro> zzo38: to my limited knowledge, there is not
00:38:06 <zzo38> If we used the "mahjong operator" in a new esolang, like I described (the input set can consist of a tenpai hand with any number of sets of three tiles and up to one pair), are any calculations reasonably done with this?
00:38:17 <zzo38> The input and output would be unordered sets with duplicates OK
00:38:39 <zzo38> O, and add the concatenation operator too
00:39:19 <zzo38> Would it be sufficient for most uses?
00:41:43 <coppro> can you rexplain the operator?
00:44:08 <zzo38> The operator does: If you have a tenpai hand (where a complete hand must contain any number of sets of three tiles and up to one pair), then the output will be the list of possible tiles to complete this hand.
00:44:25 <zzo38> Example: [chun,chun,1man,3man] -> [2man]
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00:44:50 <Sgeo> DAMMIT WINDOWS! I DO NOT WANT YOU TO KEEP TELLING ME ABOUT YOUR CORRUPTED FILES
00:45:17 <zzo38> And then also needs a command for jumping if the list is empty/non-empty
00:45:17 <oerjan> sweep corruption under the rug, i say
00:46:11 <Sgeo> oerjan, I just wish there was an ignore button
00:46:13 <coppro> zzo38: hmm... I think I need to know more of the context of the language to understand where it might be useful :)
00:46:19 <zzo38> If the number of elements in the input list is divisible by three, the output list would necessarily be empty.
00:48:09 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, I guess so. But I'm just wondering if you can think of ways to make it so that it would be sufficient and can do many calculation with: mahjong operator, concatenation operator, condition operator.
00:51:28 <zzo38> On Sunday, I played D&D. My character, and a monster, teleported into the exact center of a building, and there was a kitchen there, with a fire elemental cooking something. Now my question is, how would *you* act in this situation? (I have some idea but maybe you are different?)
00:55:13 <oerjan> "Hello, what's for dinner?"
00:55:37 * oerjan has played D&D exactly once in his life, though, ihrc
00:55:40 <zzo38> I happen to have Profession (Cooking) skill, so I decided to use that.
00:56:18 <zzo38> And, now I can know where the kitchen is, so I could now figure out the rest of the building relative to this one
00:59:39 <pikhq> zzo38: It'd depend upon the character I'm playing.
01:00:01 <pikhq> If I were playing, say, Thrug, my half-orc half-dragon barbarian, Thrug smash.
01:00:16 <zzo38> Like, you mean just smash everything?
01:00:30 <pikhq> (quite likely with the boulders he carries)
01:00:32 <zzo38> oerjan: O, only once? What version did you play? And do you plan to try again?
01:01:41 <oerjan> i don't recall. it was at the local convention, and probably more than ten years ago
01:01:52 * oerjan does recall he played a paladin, though
01:02:47 <zzo38> OK, a paladin. Can you also describe other things you can remember, such as equipment, race, etc
01:03:08 * Sgeo would really prefer it if there was a non-web client for Wave
01:04:03 <zzo38> OK, human. And what equipment?
01:04:07 <zzo38> And did you have any spells?
01:04:50 <oerjan> i recall a bit of the _plot_ perhaps. the things you mention i consider far too boring to remember.
01:04:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: Maybe you can use the API to write a non-web client for Wave?
01:05:05 <zzo38> OK, what plot? If you can remember
01:05:11 * Sgeo isn't skilled enough to do that
01:05:19 <Sgeo> Although I guess I could make a poor attempt
01:05:30 <Sgeo> I'm not in any of the previews, though
01:05:58 <oerjan> lessee it was a dungeon crawl of sorts, to get an artifact of some kind for a prince or something (you can tell it's not very accurate)
01:06:01 <pikhq> oerjan: Eh, that's because D&D tends to make mechanics more complex than they need to be.
01:06:27 <pikhq> Unlike GURPS, which is only complex because it's got quite a few emergent properties.
01:06:42 <oerjan> i recall there were some statues coming alive and going after us once we got the artifact
01:06:47 <pikhq> (resulting from the design decision to make just about any idea possible to implement in it)
01:06:55 <oerjan> the artifact was in a room full of them
01:07:07 <zzo38> pikhq: Ya, well, I prefer Icosahedral RPG, but it isn't quite finished being written yet.
01:07:51 <zzo38> O, my character in D&D is, I prefer to not fight anyone if I can avoid it, and I have been pretty successful at it
01:07:53 <oerjan> also, only two of us survived i think, i was one of them. a couple died at the last minute because they panicked and jumped into a door to some kind of anti-dimension
01:09:22 <oerjan> and i survived essentially i think because i played rightful paladin and therefore didn't do anything fishy...
01:09:24 <zzo38> In a previous D&D game I played, there was also statues that were going to come alive, but we managed to prevent that, by all our characters also disguised as extra statues, I also found a stick next to someone who has used "Hold Person" (but a saving throw has been made after a few rounds), and it was a magic stick.
01:09:39 <zzo38> Everyone told me not to break it, but I still decided to break the magic stick. And that worked.
01:09:55 <pikhq> I played in a campaign where we accidentally started the industrial revolution.
01:09:58 <zzo38> All magic items and other magic effects in the vicinity were destroyed instantly.
01:10:07 <pikhq> And were well on the way to having a post-scarcity society.
01:10:12 <pikhq> Also maybe the singularity.
01:10:13 <zzo38> And that greatly helped.
01:10:48 <zzo38> So now you should learn these things too.
01:24:22 <zzo38> Why do you guys use the CTRL+A ACTION command too much, anyways?
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01:30:32 * Asztal thinks oerjan just wanted to use "IHRC"
01:33:15 * oerjan claims that the ihrc only happened while the sentence was being written
01:35:12 * Gregor doesn't think we use ACTION too much at all.
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01:35:59 * oerjan agrees with Gregor. also, he finds an R someone dropped.
01:36:14 * Gregor thought he burned that.
01:37:21 <Gregor> I managed to snag this nick, upping my coolness points 1 trillion X.
01:37:51 <oerjan> that's some return on investment
01:38:06 <Gregor> Especially since the investment is roughly 0.
01:40:14 <oerjan> puget sound limousine association? i would stay away from those guys if i were you
01:40:31 <Gregor> I was continuing your "OO" :P
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02:41:27 <Sgeo> "whereas you rarely won't get any lies from them"
02:43:28 <oerjan> i didn't fail to misunderstand that. maybe.
02:44:26 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have quoted the full sentence
02:44:27 <Sgeo> "Something else you should know is that they are also very honest people whereas you rarely won't get any lies from them because of their honesty."
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03:59:24 * oerjan makes sure not to drink anything
03:59:52 <coppro> okay, it's a guessing game now: why does my school still use IE 6?
04:00:29 <oerjan> lessee, they fired the only guy who knew how to upgrade things?
04:01:38 <oerjan> they have a homebrew web-based system that requires it?
04:02:07 <oerjan> their machines are so old they don't run anything newer?
04:02:30 <coppro> hmm... maybe, but not the reason!
04:02:44 <oerjan> they have a _commercial_ web-based system that requires it?
04:03:01 <coppro> I don't think they have any web-based system
04:03:05 * oerjan realizes some of those are not actually funny
04:03:16 <coppro> do you want to know the real reason?
04:03:49 <coppro> it's because of security concenrs, apparently
04:04:09 <coppro> I'm Not Making This Up
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14:34:04 <ais523> someone who knows Russian, is http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:P-prime-prime spam or just a query in the wrong language?
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15:32:46 <oerjan> ais523: the thing out of google translate looks awfully generic.
15:33:04 <ais523> like spam, or like a genuine query?
15:33:08 <ais523> and what was Oleg's response?
15:33:33 <oerjan> "English please. Do you like it here?"
15:35:51 <oerjan> also, wrong question, it looks like many of those things that are obvious bots but still try to _look_ like genuine queries, but reveal themselves because (1) they show up in a completely ridiculous page name (2) they contain nothing that indicates the poster knows what the wiki is about at all
15:36:09 <oerjan> it contains nothing resembling an ad, though
15:36:25 <oerjan> you may be confused by the fact this one has only (2)
15:37:11 <oerjan> "Beautifully turned out ... I do not know how the rest, but I like it. By the way, how to subscribe to my email box comes if someone has left a comment?"
15:37:25 <ais523> ok, that quite possibly /is/ spam
15:37:36 <ais523> I'd like an opinion from a native speaker, though
15:39:47 <ais523> wow, Google just bought reCAPTCHA
15:39:47 <oerjan> ais523: you _really_ need to learn to use google me thinks
15:39:55 * ais523 wonders if they'll open-source it
15:40:13 <oerjan> it shows up 4 exact matches to the post. i think that about settles it.
15:40:45 <oerjan> http://www.google.no/search?hl=no&q=%22%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%8C...+%D0%9D%D0%B5+%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8E+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA+%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%BC%2C+%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B5+%D0%BD%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8F.+%D0%9A%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8%2C+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BA+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%
15:41:01 <oerjan> O_o that was a long url
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15:41:19 <ais523> therefore, it's double-encoded
15:41:24 <ais523> which is what's making the length
15:41:33 <ais523> (well, URL-encoded, which is even worse than hex-encoded for length)
15:45:22 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx7v815bYUw
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19:23:17 <AnMaster> ais523, about that double encoding
19:23:31 <AnMaster> wouldn't it be even worse if it was UCS-4?
19:26:04 <AnMaster> utf-8 can iirc go up to 5 bytes, but I would be surprised if Russian letters required quite that much
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19:27:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that can't work out, since then you can't represent the full unicode range
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19:27:58 <Deewiant> 4 bytes are perfectly sufficient to represent 0x10ffff.
19:28:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't the priate area continue past that?
19:28:50 <Deewiant> Yes, but UTF-8 is restricted to the range 0-0x10ffff.
19:29:04 <ais523> 3 bytes are enough for 0x10ffff
19:29:20 <ais523> why isn't there a UCS-3?
19:29:40 <Deewiant> Because 3 isn't a nice number, I guess.
19:32:50 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be nice for 24-bit architectures I guess
19:32:54 <AnMaster> which are quite uncommon nowdays
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20:42:50 <AnMaster> ais523, did you ever implement that packed 7-bit thing for convickt?
20:43:07 <ais523> I haven't done C-INTERCAL work for ages, been working on other things
20:43:35 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm confused enough as it is
20:46:41 <impomatic> while (brillig()&&toves==slithy) {toves.location='wabe'; toves.gyre(); toves.gimble(); borogoves=mimsy; mome_raths.outgrabe();}
20:47:11 <ais523> AnMaster: TAEB and Enigma are the ones recently
20:49:03 <AnMaster> impomatic, what language is that supposed to be?
20:49:14 <ais523> it would be valid as C++ with appropriate definitions
20:49:23 <ais523> also Java I think, because the syntax is the same in that case
20:49:32 <AnMaster> ais523, look at the string quotes
20:49:40 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, sort of, 'wabe' is a legal character constant in C++
20:49:45 <ais523> although compilers will disagree about what it means
20:50:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't think of a sensible meaning of it...
20:50:23 <AnMaster> and C++ compilers disagreeing? Nothing new
20:51:29 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from the 'wabe' it could be valid C. Assuming toves and mome_raths were structs with function pointers in them
20:51:48 <Deewiant> ais523: Is it actually legal? I thought it was just a GCC extension
20:51:48 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not sure how the precedence works there
20:51:53 <ais523> and multiple-character constants are in the standard
20:52:06 <ais523> although it's implementation-defined what they mean
20:52:20 <Deewiant> Oh, I thought they were complete extensions
20:52:20 <impomatic> Anmaster: it's pseudo-JavaScript :-)
20:52:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess it is intended to allow unicode or such?
20:52:34 <ais523> you're right, that works
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20:52:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It predates Unicode, I think. But yeah, probably for multibyte stuff.
20:53:03 * ais523 wonders if it's legal Perl
20:53:11 <ais523> it would mean something rather different from the JS if it were, though
20:53:19 <AnMaster> ais523, given the relevant Acme:: module I'm quite sure it is
20:53:22 <impomatic> I thought I'd try #poemsincode as a response to #songsincode
20:53:48 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, there's a JAPH module which reinterprets any code at all as a JAPH
20:55:46 <ais523> a program that prints "Just another Perl hacker,"
20:55:51 <ais523> the comma at the end is apparently not a typo
20:56:07 <ais523> it's a common Perl contest to try to write the most obfuscated JAPH you can
20:56:12 <ais523> in the most ridiculous way you can
20:56:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I can imagine the java equivalent of those. XD
20:56:52 <AnMaster> ais523, since writing unreadable one-liners is idiomatic perl...
20:56:59 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I mean unreadable even for Perl
20:57:15 <AnMaster> the java equivalent should be complete with javadoc and so on
20:57:21 <AnMaster> ais523, I couldn't tell the difference
20:57:28 <ais523> some particularly respected JAPHs have have included things like multiple processes with IPC
20:57:36 <ais523> just to print a constant string
20:57:43 <AnMaster> ais523, they would have been rather long?
20:57:58 <Deewiant> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",
20:58:10 <ais523> Deewiant: haha, that's brilliant
20:58:30 <ais523> AnMaster: it's clearly designed to be a polyglot
20:58:37 <AnMaster> ais523, fails in modern python
20:58:41 <ais523> although, wouldn't the Python version be losing spaces around it?
20:58:52 <ais523> if you add parens, it works in Perl at least
21:00:07 <AnMaster> with python3.1 I think it is time to drop python 2.6 support for new apps. Probably not for libraries yet though
21:00:25 <AnMaster> and python 2.7 support should be dropped too
21:00:48 <AnMaster> ais523, if you add parens it will sometimes work in python 2.6 too
21:01:28 <Deewiant> That's at least 3 years old, I think
21:01:30 <ais523> oh, Python adds spaces at commas?
21:02:05 <AnMaster> for one element it works though
21:02:16 <Deewiant> All of ruby,perl,python on that file work for me
21:02:21 <AnMaster> because then it is interpreted not as a tuple but just () grouping
21:02:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try python 3.0 or later
21:03:48 <AnMaster> 3.1>>> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",
21:03:48 <AnMaster> print "Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",
21:04:51 <AnMaster> with parantheses it works in python3, but not python2
21:05:01 <AnMaster> >>> print("Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",)
21:05:08 <AnMaster> >>> print("Just another", ((0 and " Ruby ") or ("Pyt" + "hon" or " Perl ")), "hacker.\n",)
21:05:08 <AnMaster> ('Just another', 'Python', 'hacker.\n')
21:05:37 <AnMaster> I don't know enough ruby or perl to work out how those would work
21:05:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the python one finishes already at the first line
21:06:33 <Deewiant> Hmm, that "" used to be necessary for something but evidently isn't any more
21:06:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?).
21:06:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor enough python to work out what boolean expressions + strings do in python :P
21:07:28 <AnMaster> well casting to a bool it seems a string is true, so that makes sense
21:07:38 <Deewiant> Well, in all these languages or/and return their true result as the original result, not boolean true
21:08:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and 1 is then false?
21:08:42 <Deewiant> Only false and nil are false, everything else is true
21:08:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that seems a bit trusting
21:09:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that was what is technically known as a joke
21:10:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, if it thinks almost everything it is told is true?
21:10:25 <AnMaster> doesn't that seems a bit trusting and naive
21:11:00 <Deewiant> To be fair, almost everything is true in most popular languages
21:11:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well python and perl makes 0 false it seems
21:12:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, erlang likes to throw exceptions in those cases it seems
21:12:09 <AnMaster> ** exception error: bad argument
21:12:27 <Deewiant> Yes, it's rather a feature of scripting-type languages.
21:12:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is perfectly fine in C though
21:12:52 <AnMaster> you can do ! and so on for pointers and what not
21:13:14 <Deewiant> I meant that in C, true && "foo" won't give you "foo".
21:13:14 <AnMaster> it seems empty string in python is false too
21:13:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but it compiles and doesn't error out in any way
21:14:06 <AnMaster> though, with string constant I'm not 100% sure
21:14:10 <Deewiant> Yes, it doesn't. Although compilers might warn.
21:14:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what truth value does a string has in C?
21:14:49 <Deewiant> It gets implicitly converted to a pointer, no?
21:15:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, does that apply to string literals?
21:15:32 <Deewiant> GCC apparently says nothing even with -Wall -W -pedantic.
21:15:53 <AnMaster> -W is a deprecated alias for -Wextra
21:16:07 <Deewiant> I am aware. It is also 5 characters shorter.
21:19:24 <Deewiant> Anyway, the Perl bit is probably the only non-obvious thing
21:19:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how does the perl one work?
21:19:47 <Deewiant> In Python, + concatenates; in Perl, it unsurprisingly adds two numbers :-P
21:20:01 <ais523> Deewiant: did you remember -ansi?
21:20:05 <Deewiant> Which leads to interpreting "Pyt" and "hon" as numbers
21:20:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does it do for two numbers then?
21:20:21 <Deewiant> ais523: No, but it doesn't make a difference.
21:20:32 <ais523> yep, in Perl + casts its arguments to numeric
21:20:40 <ais523> and those strings each have a numeric value of 0
21:20:43 <Deewiant> Since "Pyt" and "hon" are nonnumeric, they both evaluate to 0
21:20:48 <AnMaster> ais523, how can they have that?
21:20:53 <Deewiant> I.e. since they're not "1" or something.
21:20:59 <ais523> AnMaster: well, what numeric value do you think they have?
21:21:12 <ais523> actually, the numeric and string sides of a value are independent, although it's quite hard to set one and not the other
21:21:14 <Deewiant> So then you get (0 + 0 or " Perl ") i.e. (0 or " Perl ") i.e. " Perl ".
21:21:15 <AnMaster> ais523, adding the ascii codes modulo 256 or something like that
21:21:35 <ais523> AnMaster: Perl wouldn't do something as silly as taht
21:21:40 <AnMaster> <ais523> actually, the numeric and string sides of a value are independent, although it's quite hard to set one and not the other <-- clarify?
21:22:46 <AnMaster> ais523, ooh even better. Store the string as a Gödel number
21:22:56 <ais523> AnMaster: you can have a value which casts to a string, and to an unrelated number
21:23:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: you can have a value which casts to a string, and to an unrelated number <-- still not sure what you mean
21:23:54 <AnMaster> >>> str(29999999999999999999.4)
21:23:59 <AnMaster> >>> int(29999999999999999999.4)
21:24:26 <AnMaster> (that L won't be there in python 3 or later)
21:24:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: He means that strings are something like struct String { char* str; int numeric; }
21:24:49 <Deewiant> And it is, somehow, possible to change only one of those fields without affecting the other
21:25:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mhm, basically a class with overridden cast operators in C++ or similar?
21:25:15 <AnMaster> confusing the hell out of anyone reading code using said class
21:25:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah ok, not really then
21:25:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and that sounds like a bug
21:25:57 <ais523> AnMaster: error messages
21:26:13 <ais523> if you get an ENOENT or whatever, you get its number casting it to a number, and "No such file or directory" casting to string
21:26:23 <AnMaster> ais523, hm ok, sure, but that sounds like casing exception class to various things tries to yeild useful stuff
21:26:37 <AnMaster> basically, overriding cast code for the error class
21:26:57 <ais523> it isn't a class (in Perl5, at least)
21:27:07 <ais523> it's just a constant that has different string and numeric values
21:27:17 <AnMaster> ais523, same but not defined in a consistent framework
21:27:36 <AnMaster> (which is what classes provide, at least the mess is now consistent)
21:55:07 <ais523> that's what they're doing for Perl6
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23:03:52 <Ilari> espenlaub: ident line.
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23:04:17 <espenlaub> ok.nice. big brother is watching u ;-)
23:04:38 <oerjan> so, new here? this channel is about esoteric (weird!) programming languages, but we're rarely on topic
23:05:10 <espenlaub> what are esoteric programming language, i know html though...
23:05:12 <oerjan> 39, i'm one of the oldest here
23:06:51 <espenlaub> so you are very expierenced in speaking esoteric programming languages?
23:07:02 <Ilari> espenlaub: Programming language => way to express computer programs. Esoteric programming language means programming language that contains weird (from mainstream point of view) stuff.
23:07:04 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
23:07:07 <espenlaub> and what do you usually talk about here if not on topic
23:07:38 <oerjan> that was brainfuck, one of the most famous ones
23:07:43 <fungot> oerjan: ' oh, even mr ron here would rather wash under his arms than heads."
23:07:55 <oerjan> also HackEgo and EgoBot
23:08:04 <espenlaub> what kind of weird stuff should that be?
23:08:56 <espenlaub> i really dont understand what this is all about
23:09:17 <Ilari> espenlaub: Look at the line oerjan wrote. Does it resemble print "Hello, World!" (or close variation thereof) as in almost any mainstream programming language?
23:09:50 <oerjan> that ^bf line above was a program in brainfuck, to write "Hello, World!". fungot then ran the program (^ is the prefix that bot uses)
23:09:51 <fungot> oerjan: there was the city of ephebe surrounded them. dogs barked. somewhere a cat fnord' rincewind began, trying again with another straw.) you bastard looked down at his feet.
23:10:24 <oerjan> it also responds if you mention its name. it is itself written in an esoteric language, befunge
23:10:33 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
23:11:23 <espenlaub> is this something like an elite science only chosen people are able to handle with
23:12:13 <oerjan> we are all mad here </alice in wonderland speech>
23:13:21 <Ilari> espenlaub: Brainfuck is really simple language. It has 8 operations: '>': Move to next memory cell. '<': move to previous memory cell. '+': Increment value in current cell, '-': decrement value in current cell. ',': read character from keyboard and store to current cell. '.' write current cell as character to screen. '['. If current cell is zero, jump to corresponding ']'. ']': If current cell is nonzero, jump to corresponding '['. Otherw
23:13:26 <oerjan> most of the esoteric languages are made to be incomprehensible or at least hard to read. they're like puzzles to code in, really
23:13:27 <espenlaub> or better: just different mind-aliented people
23:13:37 <Ilari> That broke: ...cell is nonzero, jump to corresponding '['. Otherwise execute each character in order until end of program is hit. All execpt those 8 characters are ignored.
23:14:23 <oerjan> some like brainfuck are incomprehensible because their basic commands are ridiculously simple
23:14:59 <pikhq> Those languages have an advantage, though: they are rather easy to compile to.
23:15:40 <pikhq> (Brainfuck is a really easy target for making a higher-level language around)
23:16:17 <fizzie> I am conflicted re fungot's ^source; on one hand, the gitweb link points to something you can use to (theoretically) get it up-and-running; on the other hand, it doesn't really have the immediate visual impact the actual main source file -- http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob_plain/HEAD:/fungot.b98 -- has.
23:16:18 <fungot> fizzie: ' well done.' granny handed him his badge, swear him in, and he was suddenly very, very hard." the clown demanded. " you don't use it,' said
23:16:27 <Ilari> espenlaub: If you want some articles, there's "Friday pathological programming"-series in blog named "Good Math, Bad Math".
23:16:48 <Ilari> espenlaub: That stuff is about esoteric programming languages.
23:18:03 <pikhq> www.scienceblogs.com/goodmath -- This blog.
23:18:06 <oerjan> it's an old series from 2006-2007, but the blog owner is doing a partial rerun now
23:18:17 <fizzie> ^def source ul (http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S
23:19:30 <Ilari> espenlaub: Some esoteric languages are totally crazy. Like ones based on laying tiles. Or other languages with no concept of where one is in program.
23:19:32 <fizzie> Maybe that's a good compromise. Though the ^save didn't take. Uppity bot refuses to obey.
23:19:35 <espenlaub> this is somekind of a media communication development
23:19:37 <oerjan> ul is underload, another ridiculously simple language
23:19:52 <oerjan> espenlaub: i don't know what you mean
23:20:38 <espenlaub> the artificial creation of new languages only used in a virtural dimension
23:21:06 <oerjan> espenlaub: anyway when we're not on topic there is a lot of talk about coding and computers and other geek stuff
23:21:11 <espenlaub> oerjan, why do you think you are mad? alice in wonderland
23:21:24 <oerjan> espenlaub: i just like that quote :)
23:21:41 * oerjan looks for the exact text
23:21:59 <Ilari> espenlaub: It takes some madness to be able to design mind-bending programming language (which is by defintion esoteric).
23:22:23 <oerjan> .'But I don.t want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
23:22:23 <oerjan> 'Oh, you can.t help that,' said the Cat. 'We.re all mad here. I.m mad. You.re mad.'
23:22:26 <oerjan> 'How do you know I.m mad?' said Alice.
23:22:29 <oerjan> 'You must be,. said the Cat. 'or you wouldn.t have come here.'.
23:22:37 <oerjan> darn unicode characters again
23:23:13 <espenlaub> so you just hang out in this chat for geek stuff and for esoteric stuff?
23:23:27 <espenlaub> and not for esoteric stuff i wanted to say
23:23:54 <oerjan> espenlaub: also, someone officially declared me insane after i wrote an interpreter for unlambda (an esoteric language) in INTERCAL (another one)
23:24:07 <oerjan> (well, privately actually)
23:24:22 <espenlaub> you can handle that with your own?
23:25:20 <espenlaub> you know it seems just a little bit crazy and isolated beening declared as an insane person by others
23:25:26 <oerjan> when i get in the mood. it doesn't happen _that_ often...
23:25:48 <oerjan> espenlaub: well mind you this other person was also an esoteric language person
23:26:19 <espenlaub> for what type of application are you programming with esoter. language?
23:26:32 <Ilari> One esoteric programming language I have coded interpretter for: It starts with empty string. At each step it places 0s, 1s, is or os at end of string, avoiding given pattern. If i is placed, it stops to read the keyboard and then spits binary representation of read character into end of string and continues. If o is placed and 8 characters before it are binary, it writes that as character to screen. Program halts when string can't be ext
23:26:44 <Ilari> ...character to screen. Program halts when string can't be extended anymore without violating the pattern given.
23:27:20 <Ilari> The pattern is given as context-free grammar.
23:27:30 <espenlaub> how many commands has the language?
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23:28:07 <Ilari> Oh, and the 0s and 1s written when i is placed ignore the pattern given.
23:29:27 <oerjan> is this a regex pattern, or just a single string?
23:29:45 <Ilari> context free grammar. Its more powerful than (standard) regex.
23:30:16 <oerjan> and i guess it chooses non-deterministically at each step?
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23:30:44 <Ilari> Actually, randomly if it has multiple choices.
23:31:28 <Ilari> I don't consider that random choice and nondeterministic choice to be the same thing.
23:31:49 <oerjan> there is a certain overlap...
23:32:33 <oerjan> and since it can halt, i take it that it doesn't consider more than one character at a time to extend with?
23:32:51 <oerjan> as in, the character added can destroy the ability to go further
23:33:00 <Ilari> Yes, only considers single character at time (except of course that i spamming 8 at time).
23:34:07 <Ilari> And as said, i ignores the pattern. If after it spams the 8 chaaracters the string matches the pattern, the program continues.
23:35:19 <oerjan> now the complement of a context-free language is not necessary context-free, hm
23:36:07 <oerjan> so there is not a pattern you stay within
23:36:34 <Ilari> It was inspired by some undecidable problem involving context free grammars.
23:36:58 <oerjan> ah, so it was designed to be undecidable and so probably tc?
23:38:13 <Ilari> IIRC, it was about finding string that given CFG doesn't generate.
23:39:38 <oerjan> that does not obviously give tc though, since you are choosing randomly at each step
23:40:11 <Ilari> Writing the pattern in suitable manner, you can force it to be deterministic.
23:40:14 <oerjan> and so you are not doing your utmost for finding such a non-generating string
23:40:26 <oerjan> yeah, but does it stay undecidable then?
23:40:57 <Ilari> Of course, when designing the language, I had to figure out how to make it only consider one character at time.
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23:42:02 <oerjan> the pattern takes the _whole_ string though, it's not about initial substrings (since otherwise ignoring the pattern at i would not help)
23:42:27 <oerjan> i mean, the whole string at the current step
23:42:46 <Ilari> It should be possible to match all false executions of given turing machine.
23:43:41 <Ilari> The i is input operation. o is output. They have role analogous to brainfuck , and .
23:43:58 <oerjan> for tc it needs to emulate the turing machine deterministally though
23:44:29 <oerjan> oh wait now i vaguely recall something
23:46:09 <Ilari> i and o probably won't change its computational class.
23:46:27 <oerjan> you can embed the history of running of a turing machine in a string so that matching two context-free languages ensure the history is correct
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23:47:57 <oerjan> which was how a book i browsed proved that some problem about context-free languages was undecidable
23:48:23 <oerjan> i don't recall the rest of the details though
23:49:41 <oerjan> hm maybe you can also do that with avoiding a single cfg, is that how your language is intended?
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23:50:21 <oerjan> by using the cfg to detect mismatches in the history
23:51:05 <Ilari> If you have multiple CFGs that all detect false executions, you can take their union.
23:51:42 <oerjan> the history is the steps of the turing machine computation, with odd and even steps reversed. that way you can look at consecutive pairs of steps and analyze them. i think.
23:52:07 <oerjan> i'm not sure how much i'm remembering and how much i'm reconstructing here :)
23:53:33 <oerjan> however, now it seems obvious to me this can be done
23:54:30 <Ilari> My idea was to encode state, symbol, new state, new symbol and movement for each step. Then false executions include: Wrong steps, states not matching in consequtive operations and symbols not matching in same positions (finding same positions is like the "brace language").
23:55:01 <Ilari> Of course, one has to arrange the first state and symbol as well. Then the other rules can take over.
23:57:34 * Sgeo just got an IRC death threat
23:57:46 <Ilari> The reference interpretter probably couldn't execute 99 bottles of beer, since it would take too much memory and CPU...
23:58:16 <oerjan> i don't think you need the new state and new symbol together with the old one, though, just make the matching of those in consecutive pairs part of the "brace language" thing
23:58:36 <Ilari> Probably can be simplified...
23:59:12 <oerjan> (the brace language thing was why i said/recalled that consecutive steps needed to be encoded reversed from each other)
23:59:17 <Ilari> The reference interpretter undergone quite much optimization. The first versions took something like 12 seconds to execute "Hello, World!". The later versions only ~40ms.
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00:00:35 <oerjan> oh right you need to recheck the _whole_ string at each step unless being clever...
00:01:23 <Ilari> And the program uses the generic algorithm (at least the first version used). Its tractable, but...
00:01:53 <oerjan> hm wait i'm thinking somehow backwards at this, it's _mismatches_ one should find not matches
00:01:54 <Ilari> The latter versions only store the entries that match. This speeds up the matching a lot.
00:03:08 <Ilari> IIRC, the interpretter did the matching tentatively against all four, and then picked one of them and added it to main tables.
00:07:51 <oerjan> i recall reading that at least the earley parser gets more efficient if the grammar has less ambiguity, being O(n) if it's actually LR(1) for example
00:08:36 <Ilari> It keeps table of all subsequences of committed characters that match a production.
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00:09:13 <oerjan> well, only those that can possibly fit at that point (for earley)
00:12:14 <oerjan> it wasn't the simplest to implement though iirc (never really tried myself)
00:13:32 <Ilari> The reference implementation uses CYK algorithm.
00:15:09 <Ilari> But the symbol table is treated as sparse (big memory savings and big speedup).
00:18:51 <oerjan> however CYK requires you to know the whole string in advance, doesn't it, at least in the version the wikipedia pseudocode shows
00:19:26 <oerjan> so you cannot cache information that is still relevant when adding the next character
00:19:27 <Ilari> It matches against all four candidates in each step (and then commits one of the characters).
00:19:49 <oerjan> i suppose you could adjust it to do it though
00:20:11 <Ilari> One subsequence has gotten fixed, the symbols matching it stay fixed.
00:22:17 <Sgeo> http://www.moock.org/ gotta love the decorative design
00:22:20 <Sgeo> Oh wait, it's horrible
00:22:42 <Sgeo> Could have, you know, ROTATED the thing at least so it's readable
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01:31:46 <Gregor> http://lonelydino.com/?id=39 Hahahilarity!
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01:58:02 <Sgeo> Did you know? The https means your personal information is blocked! It's true, I read it in a newspaper clipping that was on the wall of my college's Computer Information Systems building!
02:01:37 <Sgeo> Quote from my book on management:
02:02:25 <Sgeo> "Cellular phone companies are hustling to find ways to compete with iPhone's amazing touch screen and its ability to watch YouTube through a WiFi network. This has scared broadband companies who wonder if iPhone will make them irrelevant one day soon."
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04:19:46 <Sgeo> ..what just happened?
04:19:58 <Sgeo> Was there a netsplit?
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13:38:22 <AnMaster> I think I may have the flu. :(
13:44:03 <fizzie> Nowadays you never know if it's the flu or THE flu.
13:44:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, I don't know if it is just a bad cold or the flu. 38.5 in temperature
13:44:38 <AnMaster> err that was a Swedishism I think
13:45:05 <AnMaster> (wrong preposition in English)
13:46:46 <fizzie> I did 38.4 degrees or so last weekend, but it's mostly gone now. One of the other people working in this room didn't come to work today, though, so maybe I just passed it on.
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15:14:01 <AnMaster> I just noticed there is a rather hard to notice sticker on the base of my monitor, that ways "works with windows vista"... a bit strange since it is a TFT with only VGA connection. How could it *not* work?
15:15:07 <Deewiant> It's for people who don't know that it obviously works, sticker or no.
15:25:08 <ais523> it presumably works with Linux too
15:25:30 <ais523> hmm... but surely, what matters is the video card in the computer it's linking to, not the OS?
15:29:29 <AnMaster> how can you tell the difference between a normal cold and the flu
15:30:14 <AnMaster> ais523, VGA is a standard. So as long as you have that or a DVI->VGA converter...
15:30:30 <ais523> IIRC flu leaves you more or less immobile and unwilling to do anything, whereas you can live through a cold
15:30:31 <AnMaster> not sure about displayport, hdmi and so on
15:30:41 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm thinking of computers so old that they don't have VGA ports
15:30:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hm, what about in the early stages
15:30:50 <ais523> like the BBC Micro I used to have
15:31:03 <ais523> which had just a TV-encoded output
15:31:16 <AnMaster> ais523, I think those people who know about them nowdays will know what the sticker really means :P
15:31:54 * ais523 imagines trying to run Vista on a BBC Micro B
15:31:56 <ais523> it wouldn't work at all
15:32:00 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I doubt the sticker will be false, since I doubt that system could run vista
15:32:22 <ais523> for one thing, it wouldn't have any available screen resolutions that Vista would be able to comprehend
15:32:47 <ais523> if you wanted to go as high as 16 colours, the screen res was something awful like 160x120
15:32:57 <ais523> although you could get a better screen res by reducing the colour depth
15:33:35 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the resolution during boot of modern PCs?
15:33:50 <ais523> 640x480's easily enough for text
15:33:54 <ais523> if you don't care about the font
15:34:11 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, but I meant, isn't that what is used during bios and such even on modern PCs?
15:34:32 <Deewiant> I think it is 640x480 but I'm not sure
15:34:53 <ais523> Wikipedia says 640x256 was the best resolution it could get
15:35:23 <AnMaster> ais523, that would be rather... widescreen?
15:35:46 <ais523> AnMaster: it was 640x256 for a 2-colour display (black and one other)
15:35:56 <ais523> you could double the colour choice by halving the horizontal resolution
15:36:17 <ais523> so, for instance, 320x256 gave you 4 colours, 160x256 gave you eight
15:36:40 <AnMaster> ais523, those are some weird shaped pixels
15:36:54 <ais523> bear in mind that this was aiming for a TV screen
15:37:00 <AnMaster> ais523, not even close to square
15:37:11 <ais523> so the horizontal length of pixels is determined by the length of time you send the signal for
15:37:23 <ais523> under the standard TV protocol, length of time = distance horizontally
15:38:43 <ais523> there were some weird resolutions for the text modes, too
15:38:58 <ais523> an 80x25 text terminal would be 640x200 in terms of pixels
15:38:58 <AnMaster> ais523, those were for graphics?
15:39:16 <AnMaster> so in the text mode the hardware draw the text rather than the software?
15:39:30 <ais523> back then, hardware was cheap in comparison to REM
15:40:01 <ais523> perhaps DRAM hadn't been invented at the time, or perhaps there was some other reason
15:40:57 <ais523> hmm... DRAM became practical around 1973, the BBC Micro dates from the 1980s
15:41:04 <ais523> so it's possible that it wasn't in common use in computers then
15:41:12 <ais523> or that prices hadn't come down
15:41:22 <ais523> and SRAM, which is a lot more obvious of a design, is rather expensive even nowadays
15:41:56 <AnMaster> any guess when SSD may be more common than harddrives?
15:42:17 <AnMaster> or at least be equal or better in price, capacity and speed.
15:42:34 <ais523> but my guess is it won't take too long
15:42:41 <ais523> how long did USB sticks take to overtake CDs?
15:42:52 <ais523> I guess it'll be similar
15:42:58 <ais523> AnMaster: in the UK they seem to have
15:43:17 <ais523> CDs are still used for music bought in shops, and installation media
15:43:36 <ais523> so CDs have pretty much become an archival format rather than an everyday sort of thing
15:43:43 <AnMaster> ais523, games and software is sold on a) usb sticks b) cd/dvd c) floppies d) tapes
15:43:46 <ais523> (and installation media's more commonly DVD nowadays)
15:44:00 <ais523> AnMaster: DVDs, but installation media isn't what I was thinking of
15:44:09 <ais523> I was thinking of consumer use
15:44:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what else was dvd and cd ever commonly used for?
15:44:22 <AnMaster> burning iso images for installing linux yes
15:44:26 <ais523> AnMaster: file transfer? backups?
15:44:34 <ais523> boot media, as you say
15:44:52 <ais523> AnMaster: file transfer via network isn't all that common, unless you have Internet access
15:45:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and I have at least one computer that can't boot from usb
15:45:10 <ais523> and even in buisness and such, floppy disks or CDs used to be more common than network transfer
15:45:13 <AnMaster> one I'm sure can, the third I'm not sure about
15:45:16 <ais523> nowadays it's all USB stick
15:45:25 <AnMaster> and since I'm using it atm, I can't easily check in bios
15:45:25 <ais523> people can't be bothered to learn how to work the network transfer
15:46:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I tend to scp stuff I need to move around, or if it is really large transfer, nfs (only over trusted lan obviously)
15:46:25 <ais523> AnMaster: I think you're unusual in that respect; the sort of people who inhabit #esoteric understand networks
15:46:45 <ais523> I mean, I use nfs while I'm at university, but most people use USB sticks
15:46:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't understand networks. routing tables is black magic to me
15:47:00 <ais523> AnMaster: you understand you can send information over them, rather than just looking at web pages
15:47:19 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes? But lots of people work at offices with network printers.
15:47:35 <AnMaster> and have shared profiles over network
15:47:45 <AnMaster> all in windows management hell
15:47:48 <ais523> AnMaster: they don't understand how the network printers work, they just know they have to select certain settings in the dialog boxes
15:48:06 <ais523> and as for the shared profiles, nearly every non-student with one I know doesn't know how they work or what they are
15:48:13 <ais523> in fact, they tend to be unused
15:48:23 <ais523> people just associate the username/password with the machine
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15:48:32 <ais523> and save files to the machine not the profile
15:49:34 <AnMaster> ais523, btw, the computers for the technical/natural science courses at uni are set up a bit strange, you have "my documents" on the network. But the desktop is on the local computer, and is cleaned when you log out. On the other hand you have several GB of "free" storage there, while the persistent storage area is something like 100 MB
15:49:54 <AnMaster> they all run English win xp pro btw
15:49:58 <ais523> I think it must be saner to maintain
15:50:13 <ais523> I don't have much of an idea of what administrating Windows networks is like
15:50:26 <ais523> although on several occasions, technicians have had to walk around and make the same change to every computer on the network manually
15:50:36 <ais523> because their ssh-equivalents didn't work for what they wanted to do
15:50:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and I guess the tech/natural sience ppl sometimes needs *LOTS* of temporary storage.
15:50:54 <AnMaster> unlike most other parts of the uni
15:51:34 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's something much simpler than that I think; lots of things save on the desktop by default so it has to be writeable, and you get lots of helpdesk calls when the desktop isn't the same every time you log in
15:51:38 <ais523> so it has to be wiped when you log out
15:51:46 <AnMaster> ais523, btw on the computer I used a few days ago there was over 200 GB free on desktop
15:51:56 <ais523> the computers have large hard drives, presumably
15:52:08 <ais523> not for any particularly good reason, just because those were the specs they were persuaded to buy
15:52:22 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes, since there was nearly equal amount used by lots of apps, like chem lab apps and what not.
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15:53:00 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting to note is that computers at other parts of the uni are *much* weaker
15:53:21 <AnMaster> often small cases, that look like it could be a thin client (they aren't quite that though)
15:53:56 <AnMaster> ais523, it is just in the lab rooms that they are that overpowered
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16:02:19 <AnMaster> ais523, know any non-rougelike (RPG is fine!), non-strategy open source game with a very non-linear/open-ended game world?
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17:24:05 <Gregor> http://lawlabeethewallaby.com/
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18:45:21 <AnMaster> fungot, testing thing after bouncer upgrade
18:45:22 <fungot> AnMaster: they made a noise like someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river and it was.
18:45:46 <AnMaster> (was seeing +/- at start of line when I shouldn't (since client handles it)
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21:56:44 <fizzie> Our work-workstations have around 160G disks, of which 130G is mounted at /users/ and usable for any large data files you only need locally. It generally isn't so very useful disk space since it's not visible from the computing cluster, unlike the NFS shares.
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22:13:08 <oerjan> AnMaster: read it hours ago ;D
22:13:49 * oerjan thinks he finally realized the logic he was missing for solving killer sudoku puzzles
22:26:16 <oerjan> i realized you can use the sum of cages to deduce sums of remaining regions even if you don't know the actual content
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22:26:56 <oerjan> until now i had only considered the sum of a cage in isolation, to deduce what could be inside it
22:27:14 <oerjan> (notation from simon tatham's puzzle help)
22:28:16 <oerjan> (sudoku is called "solo" in the tatham puzzle collection, btw)
22:29:08 <oerjan> (killer is one of the type options for it)
22:30:14 <oerjan> btw if you don't know what killer sudoku is, it's like sudoku except you get no initial cell values - instead you get an additional division into "cages", and are given the sum of the values in each cage
22:30:55 <oerjan> the cages are irregularly shaped, unlike the sudoku regions
22:30:58 <ais523> I was wondering why sums were relevant in sudoku...
22:49:46 * Gregor relinks http://lawlabeethewallaby.com/
22:50:12 * oerjan didn't get what was so funny about it the first time
22:50:48 <oerjan> or is there something more than the picture there?
22:53:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, are you trying to make up a new meme? If so: fail
22:53:34 <Gregor> No, I'm just trying to assert my status as Lawlabee the Wallaby :P
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22:53:52 <Gregor> oerjan: It's not funny, it's just random. It's Lawlabee the Wallaby!
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22:58:41 <oerjan> Gregor: now would you really want to be a wallaby while there is a Warrigal around?
23:01:20 <oerjan> however, only the warrigal is a carnivore, afaik.
23:02:44 <oerjan> hm mind you, when considering cartoon animals that may not be an advantage
23:04:00 <AnMaster> what sort of animal is a "warrigal"?
23:04:17 <Warrigal> AnMaster: whatever language you speak, I bet the word for it in your language is "dingo".
23:05:12 <AnMaster> what language uses "Warrigal" then?
23:05:16 <Gregor> And yes, Warrigal did eat your baby.
23:05:33 <Warrigal> But I did so for a very good reason.
23:05:45 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:05:50 <Deewiant> Probably originating from some Aboriginal... yeah, that then.
23:06:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Australian English shouldn't be classified as English
23:06:30 <Deewiant> American English shouldn't be classified as English
23:06:53 <AnMaster> for anyone disagreeing: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3
23:07:03 <Gregor> Deewiant: Y'all just makin' fun of 'mericans cuz we ain't wastin' our time wit your shit grammar.
23:07:33 <AnMaster> Gregor, and your fuck up spelling too
23:07:58 <Gregor> AnMaster: We just love zees more than brits because "zed" sounds so stupid.
23:08:29 <AnMaster> isn't that the name for the letter z?
23:08:49 <Warrigal> "Zee" is the other name for the letter z.
23:08:51 <Gregor> AnMaster: You see that airplane flying over your head? My joke is on that airplane.
23:09:17 <Gregor> One of the major spelling differences between British and American English is that we use more zees. Clearly this is because "zee" sounds better than "zed".
23:09:18 <Warrigal> The name that rhymes with "gee", "pee", and "vee", so as not to give the alphabet song an anticlimactic ending.
23:09:29 <AnMaster> Gregor, what do you mean with airplane?
23:09:44 <Gregor> AnMaster: MY META-JOKE IS ALSO ON THAT FUCKING AIRPLANE
23:09:55 <AnMaster> I do happen to live rather close to an airport, just 15 km or so
23:10:00 <AnMaster> so aircrafts often pass overhead here
23:10:05 <Warrigal> AnMaster: are you familiar with the idiom "to be over someone's head"?
23:10:17 <AnMaster> Warrigal, not as far as I can remember
23:10:31 <AnMaster> Elench, Scandinavian Air <something>
23:10:33 <Warrigal> If calculus is over my head, then I do not understand calculus.
23:10:57 <Elench> Warrigal: I'd be slightly disturbed if you were getting significant traffic from my first guess
23:10:59 -!- jix has joined.
23:11:13 <AnMaster> "Scandinavian Airlines System, an airline company in Denmark, Norway and Sweden"
23:11:31 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> If calculus is over my head, then I do not understand calculus. <-- I pitty you
23:12:33 <Warrigal> That's what it means to say that something is over someone's head; it means that they don't understand it.
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23:13:31 <Warrigal> Anyway, anyone who does not speak English as it is written in broad transcriptions speaks it wrong.
23:13:47 <AnMaster> Warrigal, in what transcriptions?
23:14:06 <AnMaster> I understood each word there, just not the whole
23:14:17 <Warrigal> "Broad transcription" is a technical term.
23:15:12 <Warrigal> A broad transcription of a word is, essentially, a representation of its phonemes.
23:15:33 <AnMaster> Warrigal, oh, like in a dictionary?
23:15:39 <Elench> As in the entire phase space of its possible pronunciations?
23:16:26 <AnMaster> Elench, it would be interesting to find out if it is finite or infinite
23:16:49 <Warrigal> So something like /flɔr/ or /əˈpɪɹ/.
23:16:53 <Elench> Or at least, it's analogue
23:17:46 <Warrigal> I have no good reason for using r in the first of those and ɹ for the second; for English; they're precisely the same thing. I would have said /əˈpɪr/ if I had noticed.
23:17:48 <AnMaster> Warrigal, mind you, I can't easily read that without checking a reference
23:18:43 <AnMaster> Warrigal, and right now, what with having flu/bad cold (not yet known which) I can't be bothered to check that
23:18:57 <Warrigal> Anyway, I would say that the main defining feature of a broad transcription is that it can be more or less independent of accent.
23:19:24 <Warrigal> British people say /flɔr/ and /əˈpɪr/ even though they don't say [r] at the end.
23:19:41 <AnMaster> Warrigal, the dictionaries I have seen sometimes list two or more transcriptions
23:20:04 <AnMaster> Warrigal, what words are those examples?
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23:21:47 <Warrigal> Broad transcriptions don't reflect the actual sounds; they just reflect what people feel like they're saying.
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23:23:16 <AnMaster> Warrigal, well, even so, sometimes they differ quite a lot
23:23:59 <ehird> indeed AnMaster i did not die
23:24:10 <Warrigal> A British accent takes /flɔr/ and gives you [flɔː], and takes /əˈpɪr/ and gives you [əˈpʰɪə]; the things in brackets are the actual sounds.
23:24:41 <ehird> It's only worth being scared about if it comes from a pig.
23:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I got it from a student at uni with quite a weird shaped nose
23:25:34 <ehird> 02:54:03 <oklopol> also what's the opposite of nodding, i don't know it in any language
23:25:36 <Warrigal> It takes /ˈiːhərd/ and gives you [ˈiːhəd]. Not that that matters.
23:25:51 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're having sex with them it doesn't matter what shape their nose is, you're going to catch the flu
23:25:59 <ehird> you must learn these things.
23:26:48 <ehird> AnMaster: you should always wear a nose condom.
23:28:03 <AnMaster> ehird, Yeah, your mom seemed to have a fetishism for that! Very strange.
23:28:36 <ehird> you need to reorientate again
23:28:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well it was *she* who had it, not me. Guess while I'm no longer in UK!
23:29:12 <ehird> 03:29:11 <oklopol> (i promise i'll stop being sexist when i see the first female mathematician that doesn't suck)
23:29:12 <ehird> there's prolly a decent trans mathematician
23:29:18 <ehird> also prolly a decent woman mathematician, but :P
23:29:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Most people would just say, you know, "fetish".
23:29:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> 03:29:11 <oklopol> (i promise i'll stop being sexist when i see the first female mathematician that doesn't suck) <-- Ada Lovelace? (sp?)
23:30:09 <ehird> Lovelace wasn't a mathematician.
23:30:30 <ehird> She basically made program traces of whatever engine programs in her head using Babbage's definition.
23:30:39 <ehird> (whatever engine) programs, that is.
23:31:08 <AnMaster> ehird, ah... I got stuck parsing that
23:32:20 <AnMaster> Categories: 1815 births | 1852 deaths | 19th-century mathematicians | Ada programming language | Byron family | Computer pioneers | Daughters of barons | English computer programmers | English countesses | English mathematicians | English scientists | English women writers | Lord Byron | Women computer scientists | Women engineers | Women mathematicians | Women of the Victorian era | 19th-century wome
23:32:20 <AnMaster> n writers | Accidental human deaths in England
23:33:06 <ehird> I stumbled on re-reading.
23:33:30 <AnMaster> ehird, they seem to consider her a mathematician, as well a programming language
23:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, ok... what about Sophie Germain?
23:33:59 <ehird> Categories are "things about X", not "things describable as X". Well, they're both.
23:34:47 <ehird> Yes, well, don't let a joke get in the way of pedanticism seems to be your motto; I might as well try it out.
23:35:22 <AnMaster> ehird, now there is no way you can't argue that you aren't a hypocrite (and so am I here :P)
23:36:15 <ehird> The problem is that I freely admit I'm a hypocrite. :P
23:37:09 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that is a nice way out
23:42:39 <ehird> 15:40:42 <zzo38> imconvert -size 84622x1 -depth 8 r:- -channel R -fx "p{i+20*sin(i/50),j}" r:-
23:42:54 <AnMaster> ehird, old. that was quite some time ago
23:43:23 <ehird> I also quoted oklopol from the same day.
23:43:27 <ehird> I'm logreading the things I missed.
23:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, that was quite some time agoa
23:43:47 <AnMaster> also wasn't aware it was same day
23:44:17 <ehird> 16:00:16 <coppro> I finally figured out how to convince automake to do precompiled headers!
23:44:17 <ehird> 16:00:23 <coppro> It's hideous, but it works!
23:44:17 <ehird> 16:00:16 <coppro> […] automake […]
23:44:18 <ehird> 16:00:23 <coppro> […] hideous […]
23:45:10 <ehird> 16:12:32 <coppro> one of the dummy files is getting distributed because I can't but it in nodist_SOURCES or else it gets built after the rest of the project
23:45:10 <ehird> Oh, auto*… people sure do delight in inventing nonexistent problems.
23:45:26 <ais523> auto* works pretty well once set up correctly
23:45:33 <ais523> but setting it up in the first place is a pain
23:46:02 <ehird> I must be the only person who tries to avoid wasting so much time solving problems that don't exist.
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23:47:07 <zzo38> Yesterday I played D&D. This was the first time that the *PAGE NUMBERS* had a significant effect on the game! I never thought it was possible, but the strategy of this game is complex and you would learn new things about it a lot.
23:47:32 <ehird> Dear Diary, today I started prefixing all of zzo38's lines mentally with
23:48:14 <zzo38> PRIVMSG #esoteric :
23:48:50 <AnMaster> ehird, oh it wasn't just a cut off line
23:49:56 <ais523> zzo38: how can the page numbers matter?
23:50:33 <zzo38> Well, because of alphabetal orders
23:50:48 <zzo38> I wanted to transform into some strong creature, so I did so and found CHUUL
23:50:57 <zzo38> It was near a page number near the beginning
23:51:11 <zzo38> And it helps in other ways, too, with what selection is made
23:53:37 <Pthing> entirely correct yet useless
23:55:48 <zzo38> CHUUL: Like some large insect or monstrous crustacean, the creature rises from the still pool, its pincerlike claws snapping angrily as torchlight reflects off its mottled, armored carapace. Its small dark eyes fix you with a hungry stare, and the tentacles dripping from its mouth squirm excitedly as it emerges from the water.
23:55:57 <zzo38> That's the italic descrpition in the book.
23:56:41 <ehird> That reads like some sort of horrible, horrible tenticle tentacle rape erotica.
23:57:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you read much such to be able to compare?
23:57:29 <zzo38> No, that's just the description.
23:57:39 <ehird> AnMaster: That thought hit me about three seconds before you said that
23:57:42 <zzo38> It isn't rape or erotica.
23:57:49 <ehird> s/$/./; seems I haven't got any better at typing
23:57:55 <ehird> zzo38: I know, but the imagery in that last sentence, eww.
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00:00:21 <zzo38> Well, the things listed there don't necessarily happen all the time. Like, the part about the water and the "fix you with a hungry stare" don't necessarily apply if it is the result of a transformation.
00:00:28 <ehird> Well that's reassuring!
00:05:45 <zzo38> They is a mixed of cristacean, insect, and serpent. They have claws, and yes there is tentacles in their mouth. But mostly I selected this one there is STR 20, but other things can help too, speed size attack armor class, type "Large Aberration (Aquatic)". You do not have to live only in the water.
00:06:12 <zzo38> I was trying to push over an altar, actually. (I thought something we were looking for was underneath the altar)
00:06:12 <ehird> 17:00:16 <zzo38> Like, you mean just smash everything?
00:06:13 <ehird> 17:00:44 <pikhq> Yes.
00:06:23 <ehird> (some inbetween comments elided for humour)
00:06:32 <zzo38> But, we didn't find that, but we did found three plain silver rings.
00:07:33 <zzo38> One NPC said "We need to find the sword in here to return it to the king, now, where is it hidden?" I say, "Well, obviously it is underneath the altar. We just need to move the altar."
00:08:31 <zzo38> My brother had some good ideas too, his character is a human ninja, and he decided to go to ethereal plane to see where is the door of the castle, to see if it is in the ethereal plane. It is half-way in, I don't know why.
00:08:50 <ais523> you can see into the material plane from the ethereal
00:08:55 <ais523> although not interact with it
00:09:08 <zzo38> O, I know all the rules about the ethereal plane.
00:09:27 <ais523> anyway, castles are generally useless if ethereal ttravel exists
00:09:40 <ehird> How's the food on the ethereal plane?
00:09:44 <zzo38> However, something strange happened, the castle is half way into the ethereal plane and half way into the material plane, which is a bit weird. However, dimension dooring into the castle it is just like normal inside
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00:10:03 <ehird> ais523: The travel better be damn quick or I'll stick to first class.
00:10:05 <ais523> D&D castle-makers rarely take the physics of the world into account...
00:12:05 <zzo38> O, ninja can go to ethereal plane for one round, just by a special ability.
00:17:34 <ehird> ais523: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8259154.stm
00:18:15 <ais523> ehird: I know that one already
00:18:16 <ehird> ais523: the BBC are trying to punish set top boxes based on Linux by encrypting the programming list for their HD content since it's illegal to encrypt the content...
00:18:20 <ais523> and it's more complicated than the article makes it
00:18:32 <ehird> well if the BBC say they're doing something I'm sure they are :P
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00:32:34 <ehird> 18:44:27 <Sgeo> "Something else you should know is that they are also very honest people whereas you rarely won't get any lies from them because of their honesty."
00:32:34 <ehird> reading the article Dating People With Aspergers, I see
00:34:40 <ais523> it's very hard for someone with Asperger's to understand that a lie might be the best course of action
00:35:32 <ehird> he was commenting on the awkwardness of the grammar; I just googled it to find the source and found it amusing
00:35:58 <ais523> also, that has an incorrect double negative, I think
00:36:06 <ais523> they mean "rarely will" or "mostly won't"
00:36:28 <ehird> although fwiw if asperger's does actually refer to one atomic, well-defined condition and my tentative diagnosis of it by a professional is correct (both of which I doubt) then I find the sentence to be bullshit
00:37:10 <ehird> something like saying they're more principled/ethical and would avoid lying in almost all cases would probably be more accurate
00:37:13 <ais523> diagosing asperger's is hard
00:37:28 <ais523> I mean, I've been diagnosed with it too; most of this channel probably has
00:37:58 <ehird> I haven't been diagnosed with it as something officially delivered to me, just almost-certainly-probably but I'm fairly sure there'll be a medical record somewhere denoting "Aspergers".
00:38:41 <ehird> It seems to me that society was looking for a way to go "there, all the nerds actually do have something wrong with them", found the work of Asperger and warped and muddied its definition sufficiently to work.
00:39:32 <ais523> the number of Asperger's diagnoses has gone up massively recently
00:39:42 <ais523> I think it's an increase in misdiagnoses, rather than an increase in the syndrome
00:39:53 <zzo38> I'm Asperger, too.
00:40:40 <ehird> ais523: for a sufficiently wide definition of recently I agree
00:40:47 <ehird> on the order of decades
00:41:42 <ais523> I think that with some of the definitions that go around, you need Asperger's Syndrome to be any good at programming
00:41:45 <ehird> I haven't read the original work but I doubt it says anything like "anyone intelligent, focused on one subject and socially reclusive has a different brain structure"
00:42:14 <ais523> although one thing I do find interesting is that one of the "symptoms" is being unusually annoyed by high-pitch noises
00:42:27 <ais523> and that would have no obvious correlation to the other commonly-stated traits, yet it's ture of me
00:42:38 <ehird> if anything it follows from being attentive
00:42:43 <ehird> and having good senses
00:43:00 <zzo38> coppro: If you are on, can you do something compiling a program for me?
00:43:05 <ehird> anyway, even more annoying than the professional misdiagnoses are when people self-diagnose it
00:43:25 <ehird> I mean, it's easy enough to get yourself professionally diagnosed with a meaningless label, you don't have to do it yourself...
00:43:26 <ais523> I find I'm normally pretty good at detecting people who other people would diagnose as Asperger's
00:43:41 <ais523> AnMaster and zzo38, for instance, are pretty obvious candidates to have the meaningless label in question applied to them
00:43:59 <zzo38> And how do I write a idea to ImageMagick? I have a few suggestions for their software.
00:44:05 <ehird> ais523: it's probably more obvious in person
00:44:13 <ehird> zzo38: Don't; try telling the GraphicsMagick folk.
00:44:29 <ehird> ImageMagick seems a bit dormant, development-wise. Well, GraphicsMagick appears more community-oriented, anyway.
00:44:33 <ehird> (It's a fork of ImageMagick.)
00:45:09 <zzo38> Does it have all of the new features of ImageMagick?
00:45:58 <ehird> It's actively developed.
00:46:10 <ehird> They probably have different syntax or mechanisms, but it's likely.
00:46:27 <zzo38> O, I read the FAQ, so I can see those things, but not everything.
00:46:48 <ehird> Probably the rest can be emulated with the existing features.
00:47:55 <zzo38> Some ideas I have is, built-in FFT (instead of requiring external), support for loading/saving audio file formats, support more options for raw formats, and support formatted text rendering with masks and bold and stuff like MSE has.
00:48:08 <ehird> Built-in FFT, aka slow FFT.
00:48:34 <ehird> Audio file formats are probably outside of the project's scope, and I'm not sure they'd make a change that effectively requires them to rename... but it would be fun.
00:48:43 <ehird> Text rendering; doesn't it have that?
00:50:02 <zzo38> It has text rendering, but you can't put formatting codes inside of the text. Also it doesn't support some features similar to MSE, such as symbol-font and masking where the text goes, etc.
00:50:21 <zzo38> For audio file, it can just load the left channel into the red channel and right channel into the green channel.
00:50:22 <ehird> zzo38: In-band formatting is maybe not very good.
00:50:33 <ais523> ehird: "slow Fast Fourier Transform" is sort-of an oxymoron
00:50:37 <ais523> but I know what you mean
00:50:44 <ehird> zzo38: -text 'foo' -bold 'bar' is easier to e.g. pass user-input variables to than -text 'foo \bold{bar}'.
00:50:47 <ais523> zzo38: do you know of sox?
00:50:53 <ais523> it's like ImageMagick but for audio files
00:50:57 <ehird> ais523: sox can't do things like sin(x), can it?
00:51:00 <ehird> It's just a converter.
00:51:14 <ais523> ehird: I used it to remove mains hum from my recordings
00:51:20 <ais523> and it has lots of other transform commands like that
00:51:22 <ehird> Was that using a mathematical expression?
00:51:24 <ais523> much like ImageMagick does for images
00:51:37 <ais523> it wasn't using an expression, it was using a generic filter command
00:51:39 <zzo38> I know you can do a lot of audio processing with ImageMagick already, but only with raw files.
00:51:46 <ehird> 15:40:42 <zzo38> imconvert -size 84622x1 -depth 8 r:- -channel R -fx "p{i+20*sin(i/50),j}" r:-
00:52:33 <ais523> ehird: well, adding a sine wave to an image is equivalent to adding a constant tone to a sound
00:52:46 <ehird> But does sox have such a thing?
00:52:52 <ais523> I'm checking the man page now
00:53:14 <zzo38> I'm sure sox has many things, but that isn't completely the point. Some things do work better with ImageMagick, anyways.
00:53:31 <zzo38> The command-line I put was for flangering effects, is one thing
00:54:01 <zzo38> Also, some other effects are also useful on sound file, blur, normalize, brightness, contrast, saturation, etc
00:54:12 <zzo38> Many of the effects in ImageMagick are useful to sound files. But some isn't
00:54:24 <zzo38> FFT is especially useful with sound-file
00:54:28 <ehird> It's a neat abstraction.
00:54:41 <ehird> zzo38: Some Haskell-user types use this as a toy representation of an image:
00:54:47 <ehird> type Image = Float -> Float -> Colour
00:54:58 <ehird> That is, an image is a function taking two floats and returning an RGB colour.
00:55:08 <ehird> Or double instead of float. Whatever.
00:55:12 <ehird> A real of some kind.
00:55:15 <ais523> ah yes, sox has a "synth" feature that lets you add tones to a sound
00:55:15 <ehird> zzo38: the interesting thing is,
00:55:17 <ehird> this is continuous
00:55:26 <ehird> so each pixel has infinite subpixels; 0 and 1 has 0.5, 0.25 etc
00:55:34 <ehird> so an image can have an arbitrary amount of detail
00:55:46 <ehird> to turn it into an actual image file, you sample it at 0,1,2 or 0,0.5,1,1.5
00:55:51 <ais523> and a "flanger" effect that does flanging without you having to work out the maths
00:55:51 <ehird> or whatever depth you want
00:55:59 <ehird> and the image gets bigger in pixel size as you sample more, and more detailed
00:56:03 <ehird> zzo38: the question I ask you is,
00:56:12 <ehird> how can we apply this to audio, using the audio-as-image idea?
00:56:21 <ehird> actually fractal audio sounds fun
00:56:41 <ais523> ehird: you'd do it to the fourier transform of the audio, rather than to the time-domain sound
00:56:46 <zzo38> For audio, just make it one-dimensional instead of two-dimensional, and it can work
00:56:59 <ehird> I think it'd be fun composing for such a thing
00:57:05 <ehird> and exploring music in more detail by slowing it down
00:57:08 <ais523> and it would be exactly the same, using the inputs as duration and frequency and the output as intensity
00:57:25 <ais523> some music programs actually use a similar view for editing music
00:57:30 <ais523> although it's simplified
00:57:44 <ais523> often called "matrix view" or something like that
00:58:01 <ehird> the thing with the function-as-images thing is that it's totally lossless editing on bitmaps
00:58:02 <ais523> but generally they don't draw the overtones to simplify matters, whereas they should
00:58:05 <ehird> i.e., you can do scaling
00:58:11 <ehird> and never have blocked up pixels or lose any information
00:58:29 <ehird> things like that don't map to the real world, but you can use it as an intermediate form and I find it very interesting
01:04:34 <zzo38> ImageMagick does have FFT, but it is not built-in and it requires external program
01:05:31 <ehird> Probably because the external program is better at it.
01:05:34 <ehird> Also, maybe patents?
01:05:42 <zzo38> If audio format would be supported in ImageMagick, you would use the DPI operator for sample rates
01:08:02 <zzo38> FFTW is now licensed by GNU GPL.
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01:20:42 <ehird> zzo38: patent != license
01:20:48 <ehird> also, if they linked with FFTW, they'd have to use the GPL license
01:21:04 <ehird> which is impossible: they would have to get all contributors, ever, to agree to it; plus the GPL sucks
01:26:26 <ehird> zzo38: consider that a good FFT is a whole projectful's work
01:26:28 <ehird> and it's quite understandable
01:26:51 <ehird> if you were using Linux, you could get an FFT program in one command :-P ...well, assuming your distro would include a package manager.
01:27:12 <ais523> on the other hand, bad FFTs are pretty easy to write
01:27:33 <ais523> also, I get annoyed at people using "FFT" when they mean "Fourier transform"; the FFT is just one relatively common algorithm to do that
01:27:58 <ehird> then I'll do it just to annoy you!
01:28:59 <ehird> incidentally, Emacs' GUI menus really need a redesign...
01:29:24 <ehird> they could be quite useful for not-common-enough-to-remember-but-common-enough-that-searching-is-a-pain tasks and also keybinding discovery, but they're worse than useless as-is
01:30:04 <zzo38> I looked at the Magic Set Editor codes for rendering text, can it be made with just C instead of C++, though?
01:30:37 <ehird> are you asking the magic set editor team to recode it or just whether it's possible?
01:30:44 <ehird> if the former, that's unlikely; if the latter, almost certainly
01:31:14 <zzo38> No, just so I can make it in C, in a separate utility. Some of the other codes I can also use, but I want to use it in C instead of C++
01:31:55 <zzo38> Some codes in Magic Set Editor I want to take from there, I can make a program licensed by GNU GPL, and make a command-line program with some similar function, but not all. Because I want to make it differently
01:32:21 <ehird> there's a surprise.
01:40:56 <oerjan> shiver me timbers! it's that day again!
01:41:28 <zzo38> There are many things I just don't like about MSE, but I would like to render the card in a similar way, but with different input formats and different way of many other things, too
01:42:11 <zzo38> I can see how many of these codes worked, I look at many of them right now.
01:52:38 <zzo38> How can I get a library to do rendering with this text and fonts (including formatting), which can be used in a C program?
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01:59:58 <ehird> Hey, Leopard has a built in hidden preference thing to make it use the Tiger resources.
02:00:37 <ehird> Heh, you can even mix-and-match: I have a Tiger-style window with the Leopard-style window buttons.
02:00:44 <ehird> That is, close/minimize/optimize.
02:01:05 <ehird> And the Leopard button/etc widgets, I think.
02:01:11 <ehird> But the pinstripe background and windw border/shadow.
02:01:47 <ehird> And also a Leopard window with the Tiger window buttons, which is just ugly.
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02:05:05 <zzo38> O, if I want to make this render card, maybe I can just use ImageMagick to render the text. But I would need to make up a file to count the size of each characters in the font.
02:05:25 <zzo38> I can just use ImageMagick to render everything.
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02:15:07 <ehird> Apart from the menu this is amusingly working.
02:16:37 <ehird> Also right-click menus.
02:22:26 <ehird> I don't think this is actually working enough to bother keeping, though.
02:30:58 <ehird> I'll put this back.
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02:45:26 <zzo38> I fixed the stroker.gb game, but can you contribute 40 more levels to make 256 in total, to make it complete?
02:45:34 <zzo38> I asked on the other IRC, too.
03:01:26 -!- Sgeo has joined.
03:10:52 <zzo38> Please, can someone add more levels to this game? Which channel(s) is better to ask?
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03:32:40 <ehird> http://ubuntu.ly/images/tutorials/2009/ubuntu-hedgehog2.png
03:32:40 <ehird> http://static.arstechnica.com/assets/2009/03/ubuntu904-b1-thumb-640xauto-4004.png
03:32:48 <ehird> or has Ubuntu become uglier over time?
03:33:21 <ehird> One day, oerjan will say something that isn't a pun. :P
03:38:22 <ehird> I've been working on an Internet accountability program for Linux. The idea is to log the websites you visit, then periodically e-mail that log so someone else. It also writes a log entry when it is shutdown.
03:38:22 <ehird> —Ubuntu Christian Edition forum
03:39:08 <ehird> "God tells me not to murder people or bad things will happen, so I don't."
03:39:23 <ehird> "The program tells me not to go to porn sites or bad things will happen, so I don't."
03:44:15 <Sgeo> Why do people avoid sex for religious reasons, if eir parents aren't forcing it on em? I mean, it's absurd to say that God would be angry at all these teens having sex, and if God doesn't care, what's the point?
03:44:37 <ehird> Of course it's absurd to say that, but no more than the rest of the bible.
03:45:01 <ehird> Does the bible say it? If not, does our church say it? If so, then it is so.
03:45:26 <ehird> Note: Bible clause has exemptions, such as things our church says are metaphorical or things we think are metaphorical or just want to ignore right now.
04:13:14 <ehird> ais523: I don't suppose you know if it's possible to boot up the Ubuntu install CD telling it not to play the startup sound?
04:13:37 <ais523> plug in some headphones
04:13:58 <ehird> i'm not sure that'll be quiet enough :P
04:14:09 <ehird> but that's plan b, yes
05:03:16 <ehird> grr, unetbootin isn't available for os x
05:03:31 <ehird> (you can't plug headphones into a CD burner :P)
05:29:38 <ais523> ehird: about the headphones, you could use a headphone plug with nothing attached to it to make sure
05:29:53 <ais523> we actually have one at home, and it does
05:29:55 <ehird> seems like it'd default
05:29:58 <ehird> ais523: yes, on a pc, at least
05:30:11 <ais523> the headphone detection doesn't have anything to do with the OS or the headphones themselves
05:30:19 <ais523> instead, it's done by seeing if the headphone jack closes a circuit
05:30:35 <ais523> there's one more piece of metal inside the headphone socket than is needed for a connection
05:30:48 <ais523> so it's purely mechanical whether sound's directed to the headphones or speakers
05:30:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombgirl.
05:31:31 <ehird> anyway, anyone know how to .iso → USB stick if I can't use unetbootin?
05:34:27 <ais523> hmm... /me is spoiled by preemptive multitasking
05:34:36 <ais523> back when I was writing 16-bit Windows programs, it was all cooperative
05:34:45 <ais523> on Windows, at any rate
05:35:10 <ais523> so tight infinite loops crashed the computer until I could break out with control-alt-delete
05:36:19 <ais523> there was a Yield() system call but I never used it
05:36:30 <ais523> it was deprecated when windows 3.1 came out, at any rate
05:36:37 <ais523> instead, it was all about the message loop
05:36:42 <ais523> Thutu-style multitasking
05:48:03 <ehird> ais523: this usb drive has a switch thing that's magnetic; the usb slot retracts if you push it one way
05:48:09 <ehird> how the fuck do I get this thing out?
05:48:29 <ais523> that sounds unnecessarily complex for a USB drive
05:49:08 <ehird> i think the magneticism is keeping it in
05:49:32 <ehird> but i can't switch the opener
05:54:18 <ehird> ais523: even applying as much force as possible just pulling it won't come out
05:54:30 <ehird> ais523: no, just the slider, as I said
05:54:52 <ais523> and the slider is the same component as the usb plug?
05:55:08 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=sandisk+cruzer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
05:55:20 <ehird> see the image below "shopping results"? (took out mouse to try and get to the drive)
05:55:32 <ehird> that thing, if you slide the knob to the other end, retracts the plug thing
05:55:36 <ehird> except i can't seem to
05:56:18 <ais523> so the issue is that it won't slide atm
05:56:27 <ais523> what about doing something with it other than sliding, like pushing on it?
05:56:29 <ehird> i don't know if you're meant to take it out that way
05:56:32 <ehird> ais523: it's at the very end
05:58:01 <ehird> the thing itself comes out one bit but then goes back if you leave go
05:58:07 <ehird> i think it works magnetically
06:01:27 <ehird> maybe i should open the imac and extract it :P
06:01:43 <ehird> I wouldn't care if it didn't have a light on the switcher that fades in and out constantly
06:08:17 <ais523> oh, it's stuck in your laptop?
06:08:34 <ehird> ais523: I'm curious as to what lead you to the impression that it's a laptop this is stuck in
06:08:40 <ais523> ehird: it's clearly incorrect
06:08:50 <ehird> i understand it might have been confusing not knowing that :P
06:09:01 <ais523> probably it's because desktops are rather large and clunky things to stick USB sticks into
06:09:03 <ehird> ais523: nothing I said implies that, but yes, correct that it is incorrect
06:09:12 <ehird> but it beats a noisy cd
06:09:27 <ais523> (I was having this discussion with AnMaster a while ago, actually)
06:09:35 <ais523> and the answer is, it depends on what you're trying to do
06:09:47 * ais523 was trying to argue that USB sticks had largely replaced CDs
06:10:01 <coppro> only mostly, not largely
06:10:01 <ehird> ais523: for the savvy.
06:10:09 <ais523> coppro: largely's less than mostly, IMO
06:10:41 <ehird> I'd be fine with leaving this stick in for now, but I'd like to get it out later
06:11:14 <ais523> as a really silly idea, have you tried using a software eject command on it?
06:11:25 <ais523> much the same way you can eject CDs from software?
06:11:31 <ehird> I unmounted it first.
06:11:45 <ais523> maybe it only detects unmounts from Windows?
06:11:59 <ais523> that would be ridiculous, but not entirely implausible
06:12:01 <oerjan> is largely largely less than mostly, or mostly larger, that's the question
06:12:33 <coppro> ehird: power down and wait until the internal battery dies
06:12:43 <ehird> power down what, exactly?
06:12:50 <ais523> coppro: you're assuming electromagnet there
06:12:54 <ehird> what does that achieve at all?
06:12:57 <ais523> what if it's a permanent magnet?
06:13:04 <ehird> the magnet is just that the switch thing
06:13:06 <ehird> snaps to each side
06:13:21 <ehird> the actual mechanism is just that the plug is mounted on the switch thing
06:13:29 <coppro> ais523: no permanent magnet of that strength would be found in consumer electronics
06:13:34 <ehird> it's a rather obvious way to make something retractable...
06:13:48 <ehird> coppro: you're on crack, the thing worked before i ever put it in a computer
06:13:48 <ais523> coppro: you'd be surprised
06:13:51 <ehird> drop the magnet thing, guyz
06:13:59 <ais523> they're often used to tune TVs, for instance
06:14:15 <ais523> they use permanent magnets as well as electromagnetism to help steer the beam
06:14:34 <coppro> CRT TVs are no longer consumer electronics :P
06:15:09 <ehird> <ais523> I use a black and white CRT TV from the stone age
06:15:24 <ehird> <ais523> I got it second-hand from a velociraptor who crafted it out of the original spare rib
06:15:36 <ais523> ehird: both our TVs at home are CRT, although we threw the black-and-white one out ages ago
06:15:38 <ehird> <ais523> and plug it into my hand-crank Analytical Engine laptop
06:15:53 <ais523> we couldn't find an easy way to get one with an integrated VHS recorder otherwise
06:16:03 <ais523> and my parents don't really understand recording technologies more advanced than VHS
06:16:06 <ehird> more like schmintergrated
06:16:15 <coppro> a PVR is easier than VHS :/
06:16:20 <ehird> ais523: VHS recording is actually a bitch imo
06:16:29 <ais523> ehird: not really on the integrated versions
06:16:29 <ehird> the interface sucks to set time, and the "magic codes" rarely work
06:16:33 <ais523> you press the record button, it records
06:16:41 <ais523> oh, you mean recording on a timer? they don't normally do that
06:16:41 <ehird> ais523: unless you want to record a program on at 4am
06:16:52 <ehird> anything not on right now
06:16:55 <ais523> ehird: the usual method of accomplishing that in this family seems to be staying up until 4am
06:17:06 <ehird> ais523: then hitting record and going to bed?
06:17:18 <ais523> the VCR rewinds and ejects once the tape ends
06:17:33 <ais523> (ironically, I do know how to work the timer, but rarely use it)
06:17:39 <ais523> (but then, I haven't recorded anything for months anyway)
06:18:09 <ehird> I'm fairly sure torrents are at least an order of a magnitude easier to use than a VCR timer
06:18:18 <ehird> and torrents aren't even very simple...
06:19:18 <ehird> something like tivo is probably easier, but also more locked-down
06:19:22 <ais523> hmm... does Visual Studio run in Wine?
06:19:29 <ehird> almost certainly not
06:19:32 <ais523> I'm sort-of wondering what the free versions are like
06:19:41 <ais523> I've used a paid version at University, it was just generically annoying
06:19:46 <ais523> so I switched to the command-line version instead
06:20:02 <ais523> cl.exe isn't really that bad, it's hard to really mess up the interface of a command-line compiler
06:20:11 <ehird> there's a well-polished vi keybindings type thing for visual studio
06:20:14 <ehird> that probably makes it nicer
06:20:31 <ehird> (a big commercial thing, not just a 10-line open source addon that adds three commands and no combining)
06:20:50 <ehird> http://www.codekana.com/ is also quite cool-looking due to its ability to parse invalid code
06:20:58 <ehird> but visual studio just seems like Too Much
06:24:13 <ais523> <Wikia> You are now leaving Wikia. Please click here to continue, or wait 10 seconds to be redirected.
06:24:17 <ais523> ... on an otherwise blank screen
06:24:26 <ais523> what a brilliant idea!
06:24:43 <coppro> wiki* is generally bad
06:24:53 <ehird> wait you're not serious are you?
06:25:09 <coppro> absolutely. Do you know the amount of time I have spent reading random articles on Wikipedia?
06:25:17 <coppro> almost as bad as TVTropes
06:25:28 <ehird> coppro: fuck you, i was all prepared to be all holier-than-thou :P
06:25:34 <ehird> just go and ruin my rage!
06:26:47 <ehird> so uh anyone want to .iso this usb stick :|
06:29:39 <coppro> hmm... any reason a CD must be ISO format? Why not just dd off the stick?
06:29:47 * Sgeo founded a wiki on wikia.. back before they went evil
06:29:54 <ehird> coppro: .iso → USB
06:30:07 <ehird> .iso ubuntu 9.04 → usb sticky stick
06:30:14 <ehird> unetbootin would be the thing
06:30:20 <ehird> uses qt4, but windows/linux binaries only
06:30:26 <ehird> and i'm way too lazy to compile it
06:32:22 <coppro> ehird: format the stick, copy the disk over, then set up grub on it?
06:32:36 <ehird> you can't use grub, just syslinux
06:32:53 <ehird> but sure, that would work, added to todo as "last resort".
06:34:22 <ehird> because it won't work? i don't know this shit, i just know it's true
06:35:00 <coppro> it won't work from a USB stick?
06:35:07 <coppro> works fine from a USB harddisk for me
06:35:33 <ehird> ffffffffffffffffffffff
06:35:55 <coppro> you appear to have sprung a leak
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06:43:14 <ehird> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/ ;; .........ffffffffffffffffffff
06:44:08 <oerjan> yes it was rather bad today
06:44:32 <coppro> ehird: I hate him now too :(
06:44:55 <coppro> but he invented Piet, so all's good
06:45:01 <oerjan> well he's on the run from death already
06:45:52 <ehird> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/2425.html
06:46:38 <oerjan> wouldn't that rather be death _to_ time?
06:48:23 <ehird> but they're all death by
06:48:31 <ehird> oerjan: death by being time
06:48:46 <oerjan> maybe, possibly, perhaps
06:56:46 <ehird> so, who wants to get this usb working
07:02:34 <coppro> no, pretty sure she's asleep
07:05:13 <ehird> she dreams about usb ubuntu install cds
07:08:49 <coppro> hmm... she never complains about nightmares
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10:34:24 <AnMaster> ais523, what was that about ejecting usb stick about?
10:34:50 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm not entirely sure; ehird seems to have mechanical problems with his
10:35:45 <AnMaster> ais523, he must be weak if he can't pull out an usb stick!
10:36:02 <ais523> AnMaster: there's some sort of weird magnetic lock thing
10:36:48 <AnMaster> ais523, that locks onto what? the plastic of the computer?
10:37:01 <ais523> I'm not sure of the details
10:37:17 <AnMaster> also that seems too silly to be true
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00:54:50 <ehird> 07:32:22 <ais523> for one thing, it wouldn't have any available screen resolutions that Vista would be able to comprehend
00:54:50 <ehird> 07:32:47 <ais523> if you wanted to go as high as 16 colours, the screen res was something awful like 160x120
00:54:55 <ehird> it could do that I'm sure
00:55:06 <ehird> 98-type things could do 1-bit
00:55:49 <ehird> (I'm skipping logreading the middle day...)
00:55:51 <ehird> 07:41:56 <AnMaster> any guess when SSD may be more common than harddrives?
00:55:51 <ehird> 07:42:17 <AnMaster> or at least be equal or better in price, capacity and speed.
00:56:00 <ehird> about 5 years for the consumer market
00:56:13 <ehird> but HDs will still be big for ages, I imagine; even in the consumer market
00:56:17 <ehird> for servers, a million years
00:56:21 <ehird> HDs are very orthodox
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01:05:09 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, are you there?
01:06:27 <oerjan> no, your vestiges of sanity are safe for now
01:07:06 <ehird> 07:52:42 <AnMaster> think it was 450 GB disk
01:07:12 <ehird> so prolly 500GB disks
01:07:30 <ehird> 07:53:21 <AnMaster> often small cases, that look like it could be a thin client (they aren't quite that though)
01:07:30 <ehird> mini-atx is quite popular these days
01:08:04 <ehird> 10:45:22 <fungot> AnMaster: they made a noise like someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river and it was.
01:08:05 <fungot> ehird: he took a great deal that's got to be more and more dwarfs were coming to work in a dark alley, a voice which only he heard said: so... this classroom is in some way driven by the brain, eh?
01:08:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:29 <ehird> "and it was" at the end made my brain put that quote to the tune of And She Was
01:08:43 <ehird> except very skewed
01:09:59 <ehird> anyway, what is the noise of someone trying to organise yet another bucket chain from the river?
01:11:28 <ehird> 14:30:14 <oerjan> btw if you don't know what killer sudoku is, it's like sudoku except you get no initial cell values - instead you get an additional division into "cages", and are given the sum of the values in each cage
01:11:30 <ehird> aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
01:11:49 <ehird> i don't consider sudoku nor that worthy of the title game
01:11:52 <ehird> but for different reasons
01:11:57 <ehird> sudoku's too easy, that's too evil
01:13:25 <ehird> 15:06:30 <Deewiant> American English shouldn't be classified as English
01:13:25 <ehird> 15:06:31 <Deewiant> It's too crap
01:13:25 <ehird> I'm tempted to start using American English spelling because it's less crufty
01:14:07 <ehird> 15:07:58 <Gregor> AnMaster: We just love zees more than brits because "zed" sounds so stupid.
01:14:07 <ehird> I HATE ZED; we used to sing the abc song in school like that and it totally broke the flow
01:14:37 <ehird> "queue arr ess, tee you vee, double you ecks, why and zed"
01:14:44 <ehird> "queue arr ess, tee you vee, double you ecks, why and zeeeeeeeeeee"
01:15:19 <Gregor> ehird: Tragically born on the wrong side of the pond.
01:15:35 <ehird> Gregor: on the other hand, self-loathing possibly beats rampant consumerism
01:15:56 <Gregor> Dood rampant consumerism RULES.
01:16:20 <ehird> Dood rampant consumerism rules: 1. Buy things. 2. A lot.
01:16:27 <ehird> 3. Make them fit for a dood.
01:17:21 <oerjan> ehird: tatham's killer sudoku got a lot easier after i had that realization before the quote, now i've solved everyone i tried (except possibly one i interrupted), while before i'd only managed a single one afair
01:19:18 <oerjan> although i'd managed a few in the weekend newspaper before, obviously they were much easier
01:19:55 <ehird> 15:08:51 <Gregor> AnMaster: You see that airplane flying over your head? My joke is on that airplane.
01:19:55 <ehird> 15:09:29 <AnMaster> Gregor, what do you mean with airplane?
01:19:55 <ehird> 15:09:44 <Gregor> AnMaster: MY META-JOKE IS ALSO ON THAT FUCKING AIRPLANE
01:20:02 <ehird> can I hitch a ride?
01:20:12 <ehird> i have this bomb, you see...
01:20:49 <ehird> 15:11:31 <AnMaster> <Warrigal> If calculus is over my head, then I do not understand calculus. <-- I pitty you
01:20:55 <ehird> there goes 'nother one
01:24:27 <ehird> 02:35:45 <AnMaster> ais523, he must be weak if he can't pull out an usb stick!
01:24:35 <ehird> the magnetic thing is just so it doesn't poke you, i guess
01:24:41 <ehird> but yeah, I'm just weak. it's out now
01:24:53 <ehird> it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out
01:47:47 <ehird> A village in south-estern Slovenia.
01:53:31 <ehird> [[In terms of her biographical details, Marie Bila is a 77 year-old grandmother, who lives in small village in the Czech Republic with a cat called Jasmina, 15 chickens and goat Liza.
01:53:31 <ehird> This year however, she's become Granny Coder, and is proving you're never too old to become a game developer.
01:53:31 <ehird> On her blog, and helped by her three grandsons, she's been documenting the process of making her first game - an iPhone physics puzzle game called Gelex.]]
01:54:07 <ehird> Just wait 'til it gets rejected!
01:55:28 <ehird> It's probably bullshit:
01:55:30 <ehird> [[Someone who only has a basic knowledge of C/C++ in "IT Projects" makes a game concept on paper on August 28th. 22 days later they have a fully working game on a foreign platform in a foreign graphics API in a language that isn't C/C++ with self-made professional quality art, and is now posting about topics like using --ffast-math to compile the physics library, using degenerate triangle strips, and using HSV as an intermediate format for better color shift
01:56:35 <oerjan> ehird: also "End" in Czech
01:56:51 <ehird> There's a place in the UK called Nowhere IIRC
01:57:31 <oerjan> and there's a place in Norway called Hell (Less than an hour's drive from here)
01:59:16 <oerjan> (there is also a place close to my birth town called the norwegian translation of that, but that's a very local name so not famous)
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03:33:10 <ehird> What should I name this Ubuntu machine, I've been stuck at this prompt for 70 years :|
03:35:45 <oerjan> something african perhaps
03:36:01 <ehird> What's african for butt.
03:37:04 <oerjan> hmph this swahili dictionary has no match
03:37:43 <oerjan> not this zulu one either...
03:38:26 <ehird> Well, "anus" is probably more likely.
03:39:03 <ehird> Ubuntu is a Bantu word, it seems.
03:39:52 <oerjan> bah punda means ass as in donkey
03:41:26 <oerjan> try "mugabe", that's _almost_ the same isn't it?
03:43:51 <oerjan> and you then still have a perfect explanation if someone asks you why you named it that
03:44:14 <ehird> "I hate white people."
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04:01:02 <ehird> I eventually picked the imaginative name of "ehird-desktop"
04:02:45 <oerjan> i'm sure that means something rude in betelgeusean
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08:58:40 <ehird> i test lika this: one two tree
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09:18:03 <ehird> xchat-gnome sucks but xchat is worse :(
09:20:35 <ehird> haha, i love you ubuntu
09:20:47 <ehird> you can define a compose key entirely with the mouse
09:21:10 <ehird> system -> preferences -> keyboard -> layouts -> layout options -> compose key position
09:21:49 <ehird> issue: the compose key, by default, is missing a bunch
09:21:56 <ehird> compose -> isn't defined
09:22:03 <ehird> compose .. produces ˙, not (...)
09:27:41 <ehird> xchat-gnome would be fine if it had more line spacing between ... lines
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09:28:52 <ehird> Deewiant: can you say "ehird: foo" in a second? kthx
09:29:38 <ehird> So, xchat-gnome wishlist: more line spacing, support that fancy notification menu thing that Ubuntu has.
09:38:15 <ehird> At least the Compose key makes that easy.
09:38:29 <ehird> (Compose x x and Compose :-)
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10:11:17 <ehird> Deewiant, can I enslave you? ping me yo
10:12:52 <ehird> xchat is kind of shit :x
10:14:09 <ehird> would be nice if there was a gtk irc client that didn't suck.
10:16:26 <ehird> also, epiphany should let you middle-click a tab to close it.
10:16:29 <ehird> or rather gnome should.
10:16:32 <ehird> prolly a binding somewhere.
10:17:11 <ehird> oh, and it would be nice if you could resize a smart bookmark. and give it a keyboard shortcut.
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11:32:23 <ehird> So, all GTK IRC clients suffer from an extreme case of suck.
11:32:41 <ehird> I'm really dreading writing my own :-P
11:35:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out <-- an usb stuck?
11:36:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, can you ping me again? I don't think I got an OSD notification for that.
11:37:11 <ehird> Yeah, that worked.
11:37:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's way strnoger than any other stuck I've tried to pull out <-- an usb stuck?
11:37:46 <ehird> Well, that worked. Guess I was just anti-hallucinating.
11:37:59 <ehird> Anyway, Ubuntu is good. Not awesomely great, but good.
11:38:14 <ehird> Although it's only a few niggles away from awesomely great.
11:39:10 <AnMaster> ehird, debootstrap is good. However the reason I needed it is because ubuntu's multilib packages are missing so much.
11:39:24 <ehird> I'm not sure how that's related to what I said :P
11:39:28 <AnMaster> for when you want to cross compile to 32-bit
11:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah sure, but doesn't help when the libs are missing
11:40:07 <AnMaster> or when they are there but the stuff needed to link to them aren't
11:42:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Oh yeah, I meant to tell you. If you want to use less watts on your laptop, tell HAL to stop polling the optical drive.
11:42:25 <ehird> (You are free to stare at the implications of that sentence for a few minutes in awe.)
11:43:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I know about that. Since ages.
11:43:23 <ehird> Pretty amazingly terrible.
11:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, thing is, my laptop is probably new enough to support the "cd drive notifies about events instead of having to be polled"
11:44:03 <ehird> I'm fairly sure every optical drive ever has done that.
11:44:24 <ehird> AnMaster: In HAL maybe. Not in drives.
11:44:56 <ehird> OS X, at least, reacts as soon as I put a disk in the drive with no delay whatsoever, so either Macs once again save the day with good engineering or "polling" means "every ms".
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11:45:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well right, OS X maybe, but what about normal PCs?
11:45:43 <AnMaster> macs (almost) always had good hardware
11:45:50 <ehird> If it's the hardware(, stupid,) then it is almost certainly common as Macs use a third-party drive.
11:46:04 <ehird> If it's the software(, stupid,) then OS X has some magical polling technique that uses zero watts..
11:47:45 <ehird> Also, the latest Ubuntu must have regressed ATI drivers or something.
11:47:53 <AnMaster> "Newer SATA-based CDROM drives have the capability to notify the machine when a CD gets inserted, making polling unnecessary. Both the kernel and hal are currently undergoing development to detect and support this capability, so that polling is not needed at any time for these devices."
11:47:59 <AnMaster> from http://www.lesswatts.org/tips/disks.php
11:48:03 <ehird> Well, the only fglrx that supports this new X11 version dropped support for the X1600 and other "old" cards.
11:48:18 <ehird> So I guess I was using fglrx on older versions and now I'm seeing the shittiness of the open source drivers.
11:48:19 <AnMaster> and iirc the last versions does support it now
11:49:28 <ehird> Well, it came with this 2006 Mac, and Macs use recent hardware.
11:49:39 <ehird> So maybe 2005 release, earliest.
11:49:58 <AnMaster> that is old enough for ATI or nvidia to drop support yeah
11:50:05 <ehird> It's not a high-end card, and it's a notebook card (iMacs are notebooks with big screens, right down to using mobile processors).
11:50:33 <AnMaster> ehird, so the only macs with desktop components are the mac pros?
11:50:40 <ehird> I don't think that's very XD; it lets Apple reuse the internals of their notebook models and it also uses less power. It's not like it's slower or anything.
11:50:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Those don't use desktop components, they use server/high-end workstation components (like Xeon).
11:51:02 <AnMaster> so no macs use desktop components?
11:51:48 <ehird> Keep in mind that desktop components run hot enough that the iMac would have to be thicker to account for the beefier heatsink. Either that or louder because of a fastest fan.
11:51:53 <AnMaster> why don't everyone use laptop components in desktops? are they more expensive?
11:51:56 <ehird> They'd also use lots more power.
11:52:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really fit for a tower case, I guess.
11:52:23 <ehird> I imagine they may be cheaper than similarly-performing desktop components.
11:52:34 <ehird> So I'd say inertia, and a misguided devotion to the clock cycles.
11:52:46 <ehird> Plus tower cases (which suck anyway).
11:52:56 <AnMaster> what is wrong with tower cases?
11:53:06 <ehird> s/the clock cycles/clock cycles/
11:53:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Unneeded for anything but workstations. They waste space and, fundamentally, they're a Bad object: you never *use* the tower. It's sitting there because it has to.
11:53:45 <ehird> Nobody wants a big box in their house that doesn't, in itself, *do* anything for them.
11:54:09 <AnMaster> ehird, sure does, it contains the CPU. GPU, PSU, and so on
11:54:18 <ehird> No, it doesn't. You don't sit in front of the tower and use it.
11:54:39 <ehird> You use your display, audio devices, keyboard, pointing devices...
11:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, according to that logic, something like a cable "modem" would be equally hated.
11:54:52 <ehird> The box, in itself, does not a single thing but sit there and hum.
11:54:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Did I say hated?
11:55:07 <AnMaster> well not as such, maybe just "disliked"
11:55:13 <ehird> If someone could make their cable model disappear and just have a wire going from the wall, yes, of course they'd do it.
11:55:54 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, a tower case is a lot easier to open and clean than a cramped computer. And easier to replace components in
11:56:16 <ehird> The box itself is useless: it gives multiple ethernet ports, which could be integrated into the wall socket. Apart from that, it has a reset button (which could go into the same wall socket) and annoying, useless LEDs.
11:56:25 <ehird> So yeah, cable modems suck.
11:56:43 <AnMaster> I imagine it isn't trivial to do much maintenance on imacs apart from installing RAM and some other basic stuff (replace harddrive maybe?)
11:56:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, the expandability is their only advantage.
11:56:59 <ehird> No, replacing the harddrive is non-trivial and almost certainly warranty-voiding.
11:57:07 <AnMaster> ehird, how easy is it to clean the dust from the heatsink inside your imac?
11:57:17 <ehird> AnMaster: It doesn't collect any because the space is so compact and sealed off.
11:57:28 <AnMaster> ehird, sealed off, so no fan either?
11:57:31 <ehird> Well, I say "any"; I mean any meaningful amount.
11:57:45 <ehird> AnMaster: The exhaust slot is too small to fit even a pencil head through.
11:58:05 <ehird> I don't know, I can't even look at it.
11:58:16 <ehird> Well, there's a cheese grater thing on the bottom.
11:58:21 <ehird> But that's the thing, it's on the bottom.
11:58:39 <ehird> Dust doesn't spontaneously slide under an iMac and then jump up really high, I find.
11:58:42 <AnMaster> well sure, but that wouldn't stop the dust from entering would it? Larger particles yes, but not dust as such
11:59:05 <ehird> To travel as far as the CPU in such a compact space that's so hard to enter would be a feat.
11:59:19 <ehird> Anyway, the iMac is pretty sealed; there aren't even any screws on the back.
11:59:27 <AnMaster> some dust will reach it. though probably much less than on a usual tower design
11:59:37 <ehird> You can open up the RAM slot and I guess the dissecting sort of crowd opens it from that cramped space.
11:59:39 <AnMaster> ehird, ouch, plastic snapping thingies?
11:59:44 <ehird> No, the RAM slot is screws.
11:59:50 <ehird> But it just opens to two RAM slots and a wall.
11:59:55 <ehird> It's on the bottom.
11:59:56 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the rest of it
12:00:09 <ehird> You cannot possibly open it without going through the bottom.
12:00:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well, how do authorised service people get in then
12:00:31 <ehird> Well, I *guess* you could pry the back plastic across from the rest of the form, but it's very deeply embedded.
12:00:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably via the RAM slots.
12:00:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Or taking off the bottom cheese-grater.
12:01:12 <AnMaster> wait, which imac model is this? hm
12:01:17 <ehird> which houses the RAM slots and the speaker holes, and is the intake (I guess).
12:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Late 2006; the later ones are aluminium and thinner. I don't know if they remove the cheese grater.
12:01:49 <ehird> http://a.images.blip.tv/Bleedingedge-BleedingEdgeTV178IMacRAMUpgradeOnTheCheap520.jpg
12:01:52 <AnMaster> ehird, not the ones that are like a TFT on an arm mounted on a half ball?
12:01:53 <ehird> Slightly different.
12:02:10 <ehird> Now the cheese greater is in two parts and doesn't cover the whole bottom, and the RAM slots are side-by-side (presumably for thinness).
12:02:15 <ehird> AnMaster: No, that's the 2002 model.
12:02:29 <ehird> (2002 to 2004 iMac G5)
12:02:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I love that design, though.
12:02:38 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't 2002 the age of the bright colours?
12:02:45 <ehird> No, that's 1998-2002.
12:02:45 <AnMaster> or was that more like 2000-2001?
12:03:01 <ehird> It was quite a departure from existing computer designs, which were, well... 90s.
12:03:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: I love that design, though. <-- ball one?
12:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, beige goes with everything!
12:03:27 <ehird> Beige goes with beige. :P
12:04:01 <ehird> The iMac G4 (ball/pivot design) is pretty much my favourite desktop computer design ever.
12:04:13 <AnMaster> my tower is more like: "black metal and silver coloured plastic goes with everything"
12:04:40 <ehird> It looks like it has a computer in it even less than the later designs, the LCD was fully tiltable and a separate unit so you could focus on it (as opposed to the additional borders in later designs).
12:04:40 <AnMaster> oh and blue leds around power button to indicate it is on
12:04:47 <AnMaster> in a circle around the power button yeah
12:05:09 <ehird> Plus, the ball was really small. Additionally, the optical drive was horizontal, which means that it'll spin the discs with less fighting of physics than the later models.
12:05:37 <AnMaster> vertical cd drives always make me nervous
12:06:20 <ehird> Issues with the original iMac G4: small screens (15"-17" iirc), slow hardware by today's standards (G4).
12:06:24 <AnMaster> and the modern imacs looks like they aren't even completely vertical, but slightly tilted
12:06:30 <ehird> Not the original iMac.
12:06:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, they are.
12:06:51 <AnMaster> and that makes me even more nervous
12:06:55 <ehird> But the components are really reliable, so it's fine.
12:07:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Notebook components, remember.
12:07:20 <ehird> They're designed to be tilted.
12:07:29 <ehird> (see e.g. all those tilted notebook stands)
12:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of connectors does that imac have? Any external video connectors for use with projectors and such?
12:07:47 <ehird> Heck, the better notebooks withstand a fall of a few feet while accessing the disk.
12:08:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that is only because they have an accelerometer and pull the head off the harddisk in a split second
12:08:31 <ehird> AnMaster: It's changed in the later models, I think, but this one has two audio ports, three USB ports, two FireWire ports, an Ethernet port and an Apple-display-connector-of-the-week port.
12:08:47 <ehird> Also, I was just emphasising that notebook components are built to withstand a lot.
12:08:52 <AnMaster> Apple-display-connector-of-the-week <-- how fitting. Tell me, what one was it then?
12:09:36 <ehird> My personal opinion is that the rest of the industry should adopt Mini DisplayPort, but everyone's going for the non-mini version.
12:09:43 <ehird> Which is kinda silly, who doesn't like mini?
12:09:49 <ehird> ...but on the other hand not exactly a big deal.
12:09:56 <AnMaster> ehird, everyone without tiny hands? ;P
12:10:07 <ehird> (Except for the whole "more money? To you, Apple? To connect my display? Sure!" thing.)
12:10:22 <ehird> AnMaster: It's, like, the size of a USB port. A little smaller.
12:10:35 <ehird> My real enemy, though, is Ethernet.
12:11:09 <AnMaster> ehird, most projectors tend to have VGA as far as I have seen
12:11:20 <ehird> Ethernet ports are so annoying to attach (push...push...click!), the little tab thing at the top you have to push down is annoying, and the ports are so tall that they actually flush with thin notebook's edges (and are omitted from some to avoid making them deeper).
12:11:32 <AnMaster> but I guess DP includes analogue signal too
12:11:47 <ehird> DVI, DisplayPort, ... are all digital.
12:11:54 <ehird> AnMaster: modern projectors have dvi btw.
12:12:36 <AnMaster> "DVI-I" stands for "DVI-Integrated" and supports both digital and analog transfers, so it works with both digital and analog Visual Display Units. "DVI-D" stands for "DVI-Digital" and supports digital transfers only.
12:12:46 <ehird> So you're right. But no, there are digital DVI projectors, I'm pretty sure.
12:13:20 <AnMaster> also how do you mean ethernet flush with the edges?
12:13:35 <AnMaster> it is no taller than a vertical USB port
12:13:54 <AnMaster> and my thinkpad has it's three usb ports oriented vertically
12:14:04 <ehird> ------------------------
12:14:04 <ehird> ------------------------
12:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2988420535_5acf01b064.jpg
12:14:29 <AnMaster> ehird, what are the first two ones?
12:14:34 <ehird> Also, USB or something.
12:14:44 <ehird> Anyway, the second port in that image is Ethernet.
12:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, macs are too thin for their own good :P
12:15:18 <ehird> FireWire isn't in the 13" model, iirc.
12:15:37 <ehird> I think it was restored when it became the 13" MacBook Pro as opposed to just the 13" aluminium MacBook.
12:15:50 <ehird> The only things that use FireWire are cameras, anyway.
12:15:56 <ehird> It's a rather unadopted sort of port.
12:16:22 <AnMaster> high end harddrives and (high end only?) video cameras
12:16:22 <ehird> Either that or made by Apple or Mac-oriented companies. :P
12:16:33 <ehird> Yeah, the lower-end cameras use USB, I'm pretty sure.
12:16:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well only video cameras
12:17:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, the MacBook Pro is rather less impressively thin than http://k8rhymeswith.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/macbook-air.jpg.
12:17:08 <ehird> Mainly that last image.
12:17:21 <ehird> Admittedly it cheats a bit by curving outwards, but still.
12:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, where is the power connector though
12:17:44 <AnMaster> I mean, you need at least that, no way to get away from it
12:18:03 <ehird> No "getting away" in the MacBook Air, it has ports: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Apple-MacBook-Air-Ports.jpg
12:18:12 <ehird> (You slide that out and it slides into the case, fitting with it.)
12:18:16 <ehird> I think the power port is on the back.
12:18:29 <ehird> (Those three ports are audio, USB and something-display, btw.)
12:18:45 <ehird> Not sure. Audio ports are both, though, aren't they?
12:18:50 <ehird> If it's either it's audio out only, though.
12:18:54 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2008/01/macbook-air-rev2-sm2-05.jpg
12:18:57 <ehird> Power connector is on the case.
12:19:05 <AnMaster> ehird, audio ports being both isn't standard at least
12:19:21 <ehird> I'm pretty sure the MacBook Air has a built-in microphone.
12:19:26 <ehird> It's not exactly meant to be your only computer.
12:19:28 <ehird> And sure, I think.
12:19:44 <AnMaster> that wouldn't work if you can't place it so it sticks out past the table
12:20:04 <ehird> That photo may be misleading.
12:20:05 <AnMaster> personally my desk goes all the way to the wall beind it
12:20:35 <ehird> AnMaster: http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2008/01/01_macbook_air.jpg
12:20:43 <ehird> Admittedly that bending makes me cringe, but it's probably fine.
12:20:54 <ehird> After all, it is magnetic. :P
12:20:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that one isn't even fully pushed in!
12:21:35 <ehird> Anyway, indeed, the Air has flaws. Among those is just 2GB of RAM...
12:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, and ok it is on the side, even worse since I have most space on the other side of the desk.
12:22:28 <ehird> Just bend the cord :P
12:22:30 <AnMaster> ehird, that would have sounded like a ridiculous statement just two or three years ago
12:23:07 <ehird> Mm, 1GB of RAM was the baseline and 2GB a good upgrade in 2006.
12:23:12 <ehird> So I'm not sure about that.
12:23:23 <ehird> But anyway, it's the 64-bit.
12:23:36 <AnMaster> ehird, why are mac laptops so thin. Seriously, making it a bit thicker doesn't actually make it worse to use IME. And I used both thin macbooks and thick thinkpads
12:23:41 <ehird> Bam! You're using like 1.5x more RAM.
12:23:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Because why not?
12:23:51 <ehird> It's more aesthetically pleasing.
12:24:10 <ehird> And it's easier to fit in bags, etc.
12:24:15 <ehird> Also, ThinkPads are not really thick.
12:24:27 <ehird> Especially the T-series, which is only slightly thicker than current MacBook Pros.
12:24:39 <AnMaster> ehird, are you suggesting about half the data in most programs are pointers?
12:24:40 <ehird> And the X-series too, I guess.
12:24:50 <ehird> AnMaster: With today's crufty libraryspace, probably.
12:25:07 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the R series? It manages to fit the ethernet so it looks natural
12:25:19 <AnMaster> and the macbook I was comparing to was a "white plastic" one
12:25:35 <ehird> Well, the R stands for budget (the R is silent and also invisible) so it's a bit thicker. Still, quite thin.
12:25:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Depends. What was the keyboard like?
12:26:04 <ehird> Keys have space between them or a more regular PC-notebook-style thing?
12:26:08 <AnMaster> the R is silent and also invisible <-- silent yes, invisible? huh?
12:26:24 <ehird> That's actually heavier and a bit thicker than the MacBook Pros to be cheaper.
12:26:25 <AnMaster> <ehird> Keys have space between them or a more regular PC-notebook-style thing? <-- space between
12:26:26 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a joke.
12:26:37 <ehird> R is for budget... which has no R.
12:26:43 <ehird> So the R is silent and also invisible.
12:27:14 <ehird> Xtremely portable!
12:27:32 <ehird> Well, that's standard for an ultraportable.
12:27:52 <ehird> The X-series isn't so portable nowadays, though, being about as thick as a 14" 4:3.
12:28:09 <ehird> (Although the screen's still small.)
12:28:47 <ehird> It occurs to me that one of the most important things for a ThinkPad to be good is for it to have that ridiculously colourful IBM logo on it.
12:28:53 <ehird> At least my subconscious seems to think so.
12:29:03 <ehird> It's an eyesore, which is good!
12:29:05 <AnMaster> ehird, also the macbook I'm comparing too is about as thick when lid is closed as the base when lid is open on my thinkpad
12:29:28 <ehird> AnMaster: The recent MacBook Pros are thinner.
12:29:47 <ehird> (The same size (13") model, that is.)
12:30:01 <AnMaster> ehird, and ethernet port fits quite well on my thinkpad :P
12:30:07 <ehird> Higher specs -> thinner and lighter!
12:30:19 <AnMaster> ehird, somehow that doesn't make sense :P
12:30:20 <ehird> Therefore, an i7 MacBook would actually add thickness to things around it.
12:30:28 <ehird> It's negatively thin!
12:30:34 <AnMaster> ehird, why would R stand for budget btw? Are they cheap?
12:30:50 <AnMaster> I don't remember the non-R ones being much cheaper
12:31:02 <ehird> AnMaster: They're slightly cheaper (no ThinkPad is cheap) and therefore thicker and heavier.
12:31:14 <ehird> Also, less battery life.
12:31:29 <AnMaster> thinkpads are cheap compared to macs at least
12:31:40 <ehird> Yes, but not massively.
12:32:06 <ehird> And they're quite a bit more expensive than even high-end Dells and the like.
12:32:35 <AnMaster> well possibly, but at least they have usable monitors
12:32:57 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't glossy TFTs be more expensive?
12:32:58 <ehird> Non-Apple glossy is kind of irrelevant unless you're outside.
12:33:06 <ehird> AnMaster: No, the glossiness is natural, I think.
12:33:12 <ehird> The anti-matte is an extra process, I'm pretty sure.
12:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so matte isn't natural?
12:33:26 <ehird> (Apple's glossy screens are a lot more glossy than normal ones)
12:33:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think so.
12:33:34 <ehird> I'm not sure, though.
12:34:03 <AnMaster> ehird, huh, so why wasn't glossy introduced first?
12:34:09 <ehird> Apple refers to the matte screen option as anti-golssy, so I guess that's an additional "process".
12:34:26 <ehird> I don't even know.
12:34:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, matte TFTs are older than glossy ones
12:34:52 <AnMaster> glossy ones were introduced a few years ago yes, while matte ones been around quite a while longer
12:35:04 <ehird> Define a few. I think you're wrong.
12:35:07 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm absolutely positive
12:35:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well I know old laptops were always matte
12:35:40 <AnMaster> and same for old desktop displays
12:35:42 <ehird> That doesn't prove anything.
12:35:54 <ehird> You'd need to go back further to see.
12:36:13 <AnMaster> ehird, why then would glossy ones have been unpopular for so long?
12:36:26 <AnMaster> since I remember some laptop in 1995 or so... matte...
12:36:30 <ehird> Because they look like shit unless you make them super-extra-glossy so that they SHIIIIIIIIIIIIINE?
12:36:48 <ehird> And because of inertia; perhaps matte was established earlier on when the engineers tested not covering it and found "wow this is crap".
12:36:52 <ehird> I may be totally wrong though.
12:37:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't know for sure either. But as far as I know that thing you quoted apple on naming it sounds like marketing speech
12:38:20 <ehird> No, it's anti-marketing speak; its juxtaposition with the default glossy makes glossy sound like "glare".
12:38:34 <ehird> Anyway, I'm not basing it solely on that. But really I don't care.
12:52:17 <ehird> I think I'm going to try and make that Linux magic (capability-based?) sandboxer now.
12:52:46 <ehird> I'm not too clued up on how unix users work though. Can you use any UID spontaneously, and an /etc/passwd entry is just for things like a username and shit?
12:52:56 <AnMaster> are you referring to the thing EgoBot uses?
12:53:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No, something I want to make. You can run untrusted programs without a care because it can only write files to your home directory, etc. if you let it to.
12:53:29 <ehird> The challenge is making this in a way that doesn't involve a dozen "let program access file X?" prompts every second.
12:53:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I believe /etc/passwd (or other schemes, like NIS and what not) are just for username, password, home directory, shell and such
12:53:42 <AnMaster> if you are root you could change to any uid
12:53:46 <ehird> Right. So the kernel just associates an arbitrary integer with processes?
12:53:56 <ehird> I wonder if many programs check /etc/passwd instead of using $HOME.
12:54:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not completely sure, but I think so
12:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, about $HOME, it would be set from /etc/passwd or whatever
12:54:31 <AnMaster> freebsd doesn't use /etc/passwd directly for example
12:54:43 <AnMaster> it uses some db file, but when it is updated /etc/passwd is too
12:54:51 <AnMaster> for compatibility reasons I think
12:54:51 <ehird> Right, but you can do HOME=foo prog
12:55:18 <ehird> I guess user-managing things do /etc/passwd instead, but they'd have to be special-cased to apply to the "actual" user in this system anyway
12:55:58 <ehird> So, this should mainly consist of creating a user and then doing an LD_PRELOAD.
12:56:04 <AnMaster> ehird, as for capabilities... no such support in linux in the meaning of capabilities that you mean
12:56:13 <ehird> (And then, later, adding this to the kernel's process spawner.)
12:56:23 <ehird> AnMaster: No shit. Thus why I'm coding it.
12:56:40 <AnMaster> and about LD_PRELOAD, there are ways to work around that unless you make sure it fails without LD_PRELOAD
12:56:53 <AnMaster> for example, static binaries, direct system calls
12:57:13 <AnMaster> you would end up doing the same thing as that thing egobot uses if you want to make it fool proof
12:57:28 <ehird> What I am doing is nothing like what EgoBot is doing.
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12:57:50 <ehird> Anyway, either I'll simply not support using any static binaries or I'll just replace libc for non-root programs with my LD_PRELOAD shim.
12:57:56 -!- augur has joined.
12:58:02 <ehird> (which calls libc itself, of course)
12:58:09 <ehird> (but that would be Hidden Away)
12:58:22 <ehird> System calls can be overridden; at least anarchy golf does it.
12:58:42 <ehird> One challenge I'll face is having almost zero overhead... I refuse to make programs slow.
12:59:46 <ehird> I'm pretty sure I can do it, though.
13:00:03 <ehird> ...which provides more motivation to make a Linux distro and package manager :P
13:00:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> System calls can be overridden; at least anarchy golf does it. <-- ptrace I guess?
13:01:05 <ehird> Down with the bourgeoise distribution control system! Down with the global package conspiracy! Viva la user! Viva la unsecure code! Viva la capabilities! Viva la sandboxing! Viva la purely-functional package manager!
13:02:04 <ehird> Incidentally, the kernel actually contains non-free code!
13:02:27 <ehird> No depends about it: http://jebba.blagblagblag.org/?p=244
13:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes depends on if you include the firmware or not
13:03:10 <ehird> The code is still there whether you compile with it or not.
13:03:15 <ehird> But look at the list.
13:03:19 <ehird> There's more than just that.
13:04:42 <AnMaster> ehird, as it happens I use none of those on my desktop (on the other hand, it has nvidia driver so meh), for my laptop I need the tg3 and iwlagn drivers, iwlagn at least loads some firmware from /lib/fimware
13:06:56 <ehird> long int syscall(long int number, ...) {
13:06:56 <ehird> // Don't call syscall
13:06:56 <ehird> watch_log("syscall\n");
13:06:59 <ehird> Well that's unhelpful
13:07:26 <AnMaster> ehird, you can easily do the syscall manually in any case.
13:07:40 <ehird> No, you can't. Anagolf allows C and asm.
13:07:44 <ehird> It DOES block syscalls.
13:07:50 <ehird> I just don't know how yet.
13:08:07 <AnMaster> well yes. Anyway in C you can do inline asm, and in asm, well...
13:08:20 <AnMaster> ehird, using ptrace *would* work I think
13:09:41 <AnMaster> ehird, the issue is that lots of hardware these days cut down on costs by having the driver load the firmware on each boot
13:09:47 <AnMaster> reduces needed flash on chipset
13:10:44 <AnMaster> EEPROM is more expensive than DRAM. And also it is easier to fix a messup, just reboot, no need to worry about flashing going wrong
13:11:43 <AnMaster> so you just end up with firmware in rom were you can't avoid it: BIOS, disk controller and such.
13:12:27 <ehird> ptrace is slow, no?
13:12:35 <ehird> every process, remember
13:13:00 <AnMaster> ehird, also you can't ptrace at least a few things: init and the ptrace daemon itself
13:13:16 <AnMaster> I guess you could write your own init
13:13:21 <AnMaster> which did the ptrace stuff too
13:13:25 <AnMaster> if you really really wanted to
13:21:13 <ehird> So, how does ptrace actually work?
13:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, is it what anagolf uses?
13:22:15 <AnMaster> I never used it directly, but iirc, stuff like strace, gdb and what not uses it too
13:22:45 <ehird> No idea how anagolf does it.
13:22:53 <ehird> No manual entry for ptrace
13:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't anagolf open source?
13:22:56 <ehird> Maybe I need build-essentials :P
13:23:03 <ehird> I can't see how it does it.
13:23:04 <AnMaster> ehird, install the relevant package, not sure what package that is
13:23:41 <AnMaster> you maybe want to use the ptrace flag PTRACE_SYSEMU
13:24:13 <AnMaster> ehird, man page mentions that UML uses PTRACE_SYSEMU
13:24:28 <ehird> See, the thing is, "trace".
13:24:31 <ehird> I'd rather override than trace.
13:24:39 <ehird> Anyway, long-term solution is to patch the actual syscalls.
13:24:46 <ehird> Just like with libc for static binaries.
13:24:54 <ehird> That also removes overhead.
13:25:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> Just like with libc for static binaries. <-- ?
13:25:18 <ehird> I can make static binaries bow to my LD_PRELOAD prowess if I instead replace libc with the LD_PRELOAD'd lib.
13:25:22 <ehird> And hack it up sufficiently.
13:25:36 <ehird> (Then store the actual libc in a closely-guarded area with wolves.)
13:26:04 <AnMaster> ehird, hm, static binaries include the relevant parts from libc in the binary
13:26:30 <ehird> libc can only do tricksy stuff via syscalls.
13:26:57 <ehird> So I can make my clever syscalls actually *look at the libc call that was done* (if any), and pass that on to whatever.
13:27:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, it uses a vdso to do it, kernel provides the vdso. This is so the best syscall method is always used. At least it is like that on x86. Since x86_64 only uses one method I guess it wouldn't require a vdso
13:28:00 <ehird> Point is, I can theoretically do all this for everything.
13:28:06 <ehird> But really, what the fuck is a static binary these days?
13:28:14 <AnMaster> (best here means something like "if possible use SYSCALL/SYSRET or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT, fall back on interrupt to do it)
13:28:25 <fizzie> My Scheme compiler does static binaries.
13:28:31 <fizzie> And I'm sure it's a very widespread system!
13:28:38 <ehird> Your Scheme compiler eats shit!
13:28:51 <AnMaster> ehird, busybox is static here. ICC produces static binaries if you use -fast to make it optimise as much as possible
13:29:06 <ehird> Busybox isn't on a desktop distro.
13:29:12 <ehird> So don't use -fast.
13:29:18 <ehird> I mean, I just don't see static binaries as really being widespread.
13:29:25 <AnMaster> because dynamic linking does have some overhead, you have to use the GOT
13:29:31 <AnMaster> rather than just a direct call/jump
13:29:55 <AnMaster> I guess you could force binding on load if that is what you want
13:30:08 <ehird> Huh, mozplugger can embed arbitrary X stuff as a Mozilla plugin?
13:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and ld.so is static iirc.
13:30:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Obviously I'd have to replace low-level things like that
13:30:40 <ehird> Obviously this approach won't be problem-free; I am after all totally sandboxing stuff.
13:31:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I bet X will be slow with it
13:31:11 <ehird> X runs as root, dude. It's exempt.
13:31:27 <ehird> That would be overhead. I'm avoiding that, remember?
13:31:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so you will only sandbox user processes? Not all as you said above
13:31:41 <AnMaster> oh and X is moving away from needing root
13:31:46 <AnMaster> what with the new GEM stuff in the kernel
13:31:53 <ehird> Can I kill you so you realise that hyperbole is not actually truth?
13:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't know you weren't serious
13:32:42 <AnMaster> anyway, the GEM stuff is bleeding edge. I think arch might have it. Possibly
13:33:07 <ehird> The emphasis was that your phat shell pipeline that executes a command per each million line will be run under all of this stuff, every single process.
13:33:18 <ehird> And speed is *awesome*.
13:33:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Fat, ghetto-style.
13:33:41 <ehird> An issue with Evince-in-mozplugger is that I don't think menus are very... plugginy.
13:33:47 <ehird> I mean, menus belong at the top of the screen :-P
13:34:06 <AnMaster> ehird, um, menus at top of screen is very.... appleish
13:34:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so where does mozplugger place them?
13:34:47 <ehird> But I've seen a screenshot, and apart from that it looks great.
13:34:53 <ehird> Just like any Firefox plugin.
13:34:59 <ehird> AnMaster: In the page contents.
13:35:15 <ehird> Here, I'll reupload a screenshot from the Ubuntu forums (needs registration you see).
13:35:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Here, I'll reupload a screenshot from the Ubuntu forums (needs registration you see). <-- even to view?
13:35:37 <ehird> The Ubuntu forums are stupid.
13:35:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I have been able to read threads on the ubuntu forums with no registration
13:35:57 <ehird> They also run on vBulletin - proprietary, for-money forum software - when better free alternatives exist.
13:36:09 <ehird> Basically, what I'm saying is the Ubuntu forums are fucking retarded.
13:36:14 <ehird> (They're not run by Canonical)
13:36:24 <ehird> (But they're officially endorsed)
13:36:48 <ehird> Upload, upload, upload.
13:37:02 <ehird> http://imgur.com/ufXf8.jpg (jpg not my fault)
13:37:09 <ehird> Evince in Firefox (circa 2005 :P).
13:37:15 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway ptrace would work. But for making it fast you might need to do some in kernel module
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13:37:29 <ehird> The only things that look out of place for a document plugin are the menu and the status bar.
13:38:19 <ehird> Unfortunately the menu also offers Vital Functions(TM), so it'll have to stay. Modern Evince has no status bar.
13:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what has this got to do with sandboxing?
13:38:53 <ehird> Oh jesus christ, /etc/mozpluggerrc is an m4 file.
13:38:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Nothing.
13:39:05 <ehird> I'm setting this up for me.
13:39:42 <AnMaster> ehird, you know kpdf integrates nicely in konqueror?
13:40:08 <ehird> sudo apt-get install mozplugger and it works automatically.
13:40:14 <AnMaster> so does kwrite for when you open a C file or such. So you get nice syntax highlighting
13:40:19 <ehird> It's already set up with Evince in the default configuration file (among others like kpdf).
13:40:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Only problem: KDE sucks shit.
13:40:36 <ehird> KDE 4 slightly less.
13:40:37 <AnMaster> and KDE 3 is getting a bit dated
13:40:44 <ehird> dcop, yes, wonderful. kparts, nice, but... X has that already, you know.
13:40:53 <ehird> (And the X embedding is how mozplugger works.)
13:41:20 <AnMaster> then I guess you just love dbus
13:41:29 <ehird> dcop allowed for an awesome integrated system: you had a command-line for the whole environment.
13:41:31 <ehird> Very lisp machine.
13:41:39 <ehird> dbus seems a bit too enterprisey to be useful for that.
13:42:11 <ehird> But really, what's the point of kparts? X has that.
13:42:23 <AnMaster> anyway, kate is a lot nicer than gedit. I could live with the gnome terminal if I could disable the horrible blinking cursor
13:42:28 <AnMaster> but I can't find any setting for that
13:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't get the extra menu? ;P
13:43:06 <ehird> Oh don't be silly.
13:43:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you were complaining about it?
13:43:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but kparts requires application changes, so why not just add a --no-menubar option and call that in the X embedder?
13:43:45 <ehird> It's, like, 50,000x less work or so?
13:44:10 <AnMaster> ehird, the important options show up in the menu of the host app with kparts though
13:44:26 <ehird> That's just confusing if the document is below the tab fold.
13:44:32 <ehird> I certainly wouldn't look for a menu in the global app menu.
13:44:57 <AnMaster> ehird, how does it work on OS X then for the important menu options?
13:45:22 <ehird> Plugins have no menus. Design your UI properly for the context of being in a browser tab, you lazy bum.
13:45:38 <AnMaster> ehird, what happens with acrobat reader on windows? it has a plugin too
13:45:42 <ehird> (OS X errs on the side of more work, less shiny-automatic-technology-ooh and more final polish.)
13:45:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't even want to know, but it's probably horrific.
13:47:08 <ehird> Also, gedit is fine enough as a Notepad replacement (view files, make tiny edits.)
13:47:26 <ehird> For blinking cursor, eh; there's probably a global Gnome setting. Possibly in GConf somewhere.
13:47:41 <ehird> For the terminal, if you care enough to replace the terminal, why not use urxvt or something else?
13:48:12 <AnMaster> ehird, because I like konsole? :P
13:48:24 <ehird> But it's just Yet Another Mediocre Desktop Environment Terminal.
13:48:59 <ehird> Also, mozplugger is cool:
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/x-sidtune:sid,psid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/sidtune:sid,psid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/psid:psid,sid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> audio/x-psid:psid,sid:Commodore 64 Audio
13:49:00 <ehird> controls noisy: sidplay -16 -f44100 -a "$file"
13:49:09 <ehird> They Thought Of Everything(TM)!
13:50:32 <ehird> Unfortunately evince and mozplugger do not interact very well --modplugger homepage
13:50:58 <ehird> I wonder why so many cursors blink.
13:51:03 <ehird> It's pretty pointless.
13:51:22 <AnMaster> wow, the sysvinit tarball contains a file describing how to upgrade from older init versions that were used before linux 2.0 XD
13:51:44 <AnMaster> admittedly in a directory called obsolete. The reason I looked was that the file was called README.RIGHT.NOW
13:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, it is what provides /sbin/init
13:52:04 <ehird> Hoorah for bsdinit.
13:52:18 <AnMaster> ehird, on freebsd at least /sbin/init is a static binary
13:52:19 <ehird> Well, that still uses /sbin/init.
13:52:37 <ehird> Argh, Compiz screen-dimming alt-tab is so annoying when you just hit it quickly.
13:52:40 <ehird> It's like a flickery screen.
13:52:49 <AnMaster> Install *just* the init binary as /sbin/init.new. Now reboot the system,
13:52:49 <AnMaster> and stop your bootloader so you can give arguments on the command line.
13:52:49 <AnMaster> With LILO you can usually achieve this by keeping the SHIFT key
13:52:49 <AnMaster> pressed during boot up. Enter the name of the kernel image (for LILO,
13:52:49 <AnMaster> TAB shows a list) followed by the argument "init=/sbin/init.new".
13:52:52 <AnMaster> The name "init.new" is special, do not use something like "init.test".
13:53:01 <ehird> Anyway, BSD init sucks but sysv init sucks more.
13:53:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what init would you prefer? If you say launchd I will kill you
13:53:19 <ehird> Probably my distro would have something Fitter, Happier and More Productive.
13:53:52 <ehird> AnMaster: Something simple.
13:54:05 <ehird> The whole concept of init is basically a hack anyway, but while we're staying with something that's still a unix...
13:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that file also says that for slackware you should use slackware 3.0 or newer
13:54:18 <ehird> BSD init is a bit too centralised and its configuration file is a bit too opaque for my tastes.
13:54:23 <ehird> But sysv is just a clusterfuck.
13:54:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Remember that slackware isn't as old as it seems from its versions :P
13:54:43 <AnMaster> I wonder if it is possible to get hold of a copy of that old debian release
13:54:45 <ehird> But yeah, so it's an old file.
13:54:53 <ehird> All Debian releases are still available.
13:54:57 <ehird> I believe the repositories are still up too.
13:55:25 <AnMaster> yesterday I was looking for an old woody package because of bitrot made it impossible to compile it with modern gcc
13:55:53 <ehird> http://archive.debian.org/debian/dists/Debian-0.93R6/
13:56:05 <ehird> And files with that last modification date, too.
13:56:15 <ehird> I never trust modification dates. "touch" is so quick to type.
13:56:22 <AnMaster> and I don't want to even try to patch gcc 2.95 (including patch for cross compiling to h8300) to compile under gcc 4.3
13:56:35 <ehird> A minimal installation of Debian GNU/Linux requires slightly over ten
13:56:36 <ehird> megabytes of disk space. This minimal system includes everything needed
13:56:36 <ehird> to install and run a Debian GNU/Linux system, but it will be difficult
13:56:36 <ehird> to do anything beyond that without installing additional software
13:56:36 <ehird> packages. A typical installation without the X Window System requires
13:56:36 <ehird> approximately forty megabytes of disk space, and a typical installation
13:56:38 <ehird> with the X Window System requires approximately sixty megabytes of disk
13:56:40 <ehird> space. The actual disk space requirements will depend greatly on which
13:56:42 <ehird> optional software packages you install, of course.
13:56:47 <AnMaster> so yeah I wanted a woody deb to unpack somewhere outside the normal tree
13:56:58 <ehird> Debian GNU/Linux requires at least four megabytes of RAM during
13:56:58 <ehird> installation and normal system use, and eight megabytes of RAM when
13:56:58 <ehird> running the X Window System.
13:57:32 <fizzie> Speaking of sysvinit, Debian has recently added this additional mess too: http://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot
13:57:42 <ehird> Still, it isn't *that* old; ThinkPads were an established brand by then, after all.
13:58:18 <ehird> I hate the .avail/.d symlink directory structure crap that's so common
13:58:20 <ehird> It's a pain to manipulate
13:58:35 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Speaking of sysvinit, Debian has recently added this additional mess too: http://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts/DependencyBasedBoot <-- huh, doesn't everyone just use dep based boot scripts already?
13:58:45 <ehird> Also: Has anyone ever actually used Jigdo?
13:58:54 <AnMaster> ehird, never heard of it, what is it?
13:59:06 <ehird> It's a method that Debian use to distribute .isos and nobody else uses ever.
13:59:09 <ehird> Also nobody downloads it that way.
13:59:17 <ehird> It must predate bittorrent because it's very wtf.
13:59:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, because not everything has dependency information in initscripts?
13:59:33 <Ilari> AnMaster: System to take template file and packages and build bit-exact ISO from those.
13:59:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, gentoo used it for *years*
14:00:08 <ehird> Ilari: yes, AnMaster can do that
14:00:11 <Ilari> AnMaster: Yes, it uses the same packages as downloaded by apt-get. Saves a lot of disk space from servers.
14:00:12 <ehird> *instantrimshot.com*
14:00:33 <ehird> Not really, since all the servers carry the .isos too.
14:00:47 <ehird> It frees up NEGATIVE space! Woohoo! :P
14:00:53 <AnMaster> ehird, use venti, thus the same files only need to be stored once
14:01:01 <AnMaster> assuming that you get abount +/- 0
14:01:02 <ehird> Uh, .iso vs a bunch of packages.
14:01:38 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't the iso have the package files stored as such on it to be able to install them. Well the base system packages only obviously
14:01:50 <AnMaster> plus of course a few binaries to run the installer
14:01:58 <AnMaster> like, installer itself and support files
14:02:00 <ehird> Sure, but I doubt there are too many shared *blocks*.
14:02:08 <ehird> Mostly it'll be AAAABBBB vs AAAB.
14:02:09 <fizzie> On my system, "mzscheme" and "scratchbox-core" both are missing the LSB tags.
14:02:14 <ehird> Mostly it'll be AAAABBBB vs AAABBBBC.
14:02:27 <ehird> Even a one byte misalignment will remove all sharing.
14:02:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, why does mzscheme need a init script...
14:02:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: It has that HTTP server it can optionally start at boot-up.
14:03:13 <fizzie> I don't think anyone uses it, but it exists.
14:03:15 <ehird> It's PLT Scheme, not MzScheme that has that, though.
14:03:17 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, they do
14:03:21 <ehird> PLT Scheme is an environment
14:03:23 <Ilari> The template would only need support for literal insert and range copy from... Then one-byte misalignments wouldn't matter too much.
14:03:26 <ehird> MzScheme is the implementation
14:03:35 <ehird> It's quite a neat server
14:03:45 <ehird> Has continuation-based web programming and all that nice stuff.
14:04:10 <AnMaster> from gentoo init script for iptables:
14:04:14 <ehird> Ilari: True, but he advocated changing the storage mechanism to venti, which wouldn't help.
14:04:18 <ehird> (and making no other changes)
14:04:32 <AnMaster> for required ones it would use "need" instead of "use"
14:04:50 <fizzie> Oh, so Gentoo doesn't use the LSB-standard dependency tags then, but does a custom thing?
14:05:01 <AnMaster> there is also "provide" for stuff like postfix/qmail/sendmail/ssmtp. They all "provide mta"
14:05:14 <ehird> And the FHS. For some reason standards always err to the worse.
14:05:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, lsb is not something ever heard of on gentoo. There was even a 1 april joke about gentoo switching to LSB and thus also RPM.
14:06:33 <Ilari> Or just have full template image, compress it with something that can compress repetitions real well (bzip2 for instance) and have series of ranged XORs from.
14:07:02 <ehird> This hostname could probably do with being changed from "ehird-desktop".
14:07:14 <ehird> To... bip. Or blip.
14:08:43 <ehird> Blop. Yes, that's it. Blop.
14:09:00 <ehird> Now how do I change my hostname all point-'n-clicky with Ubuntu...
14:09:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw, gentoo doesn't use the classical runlevels either
14:09:45 <ehird> You can boot Linux easily without runlevels?
14:09:51 <ehird> Mwahaha! Another thing to scrap!
14:09:59 <AnMaster> ehird, you need 0 and 6 at least
14:10:26 <ehird> Only if you use stock init though, right?
14:10:38 <AnMaster> ehird, unsure. I think 0 and 6 at least may have special meanings
14:10:39 <ehird> Although I'm not sure I really want to go interacting with the kernel at such an intimate level.
14:10:45 <ehird> I'm just not ready for that kind of relationship.
14:11:01 <AnMaster> anyway. gentoo uses named runlevels
14:11:13 <ehird> (What's 6? Isn't that higher than the usual desktoppy runlevel?)
14:11:15 <AnMaster> you can create extra ones as you like
14:11:32 <AnMaster> apart from that, definitions vary
14:11:36 <ehird> I wonder if there's anything that actually parses PATH itself.
14:11:40 <Ilari> Little known, but there are runlevels 7, 8 and 9 too. Usually not used for anything.
14:11:47 <ehird> I could just PATH=magic and then override the lookup thing.
14:11:51 <ehird> AnMaster: libc is mine, all mine!
14:12:01 <ehird> (For the separate-package-directory thing.)
14:12:03 <fizzie> I haven't seen the different numeric runlevels used much anywhere either; Debian has pretty much identical 2-5, I think; Slackware differentiated between "X" and "not X".
14:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I think some apps do too. iirc I was working on doing that in befunge, for use with the system()
14:13:00 <Ilari> AnMaster: And then the sysvinit has special levels a, b and c. But those aren't runlevels.
14:13:37 <ehird> Maybe I'll point PATH=/magic, where /magic is an FS with every file possible, and they're all executable, and they all print out "Stop parsing PATH, you nincompoop." and then exit.
14:13:59 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with PATH
14:14:17 <Ilari> AnMaster: They instead execute some commands but don't change the runlevel (unlike 'init 7', which really would switch runlevel).
14:14:25 <ehird> Separate package directories = oh, your PATH is 3MiB big.
14:14:25 <AnMaster> huh it seems my ubuntu laptop uses runlevel 2 for normal usage
14:14:37 <AnMaster> so I guess it dropped most of the normal runlevel-y stuff too
14:14:52 <ehird> Or, "oh, you have a directory cluttering up your FS just to cater to stubborn programs with symlinks or whatever".
14:14:57 <AnMaster> ehird, is that what happens on that distro which I forgot the name of atm
14:15:16 <ehird> Gobo uses shim directories, yes.
14:15:30 <ehird> GoboLinux also has GNOME 2.0 in its repositories, iirc.
14:15:31 <Ilari> AFAIK, $PATH can't be 3MB... :->
14:15:35 <ehird> GNOME 2.0, full stop.
14:15:37 <AnMaster> ehird, "shim"? isn't that something related to scanner in windows?
14:15:41 <ehird> It still used Sawfish.
14:15:47 <ehird> It's from around 2000.
14:16:00 <ehird> They still have it in their repositories as the latest gnome!
14:16:51 <AnMaster> /bin/ld_static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped
14:16:58 <Ilari> AnMaster: Kernel limits for amount of information that can be passed through exec (since that must be allocated as kernel memory).
14:17:03 <AnMaster> yes that is ld as in ld from binutils
14:18:07 <AnMaster> oh used for building kernel modules during boot on the fly if needed for mounting /usr it seems
14:18:12 <AnMaster> well not compiling, just linking
14:18:23 <ehird> That sure does sound slow.
14:18:39 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ file /usr/bin/* | grep static
14:18:40 <ehird> /usr/bin/mbchk: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped
14:18:40 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$
14:18:50 <ehird> mbchk - check the format of a Multiboot kernel
14:18:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it is meant for when you boot with a new kernel
14:19:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just going to say it was grub related iirc
14:19:42 <ehird> /usr/sbin/grub is obviously static.
14:19:48 <ehird> ldconfig.real too, yeah.
14:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes, ldconfig must be static
14:20:02 <ehird> /lib/klibc-twzlwPED6FKuYrtGTmP6bjJ3CHQ.so: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, stripped
14:20:04 <ehird> that's an impressive filename.
14:20:19 <ehird> And, well... that's it.
14:20:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I have some more in /usr/sbin, called unhide-linux26, unhide-posix, unhide-tcp
14:20:36 <ehird> So there's only one file per directory on Ubuntu that's static, heh.
14:20:39 <ehird> And sometimes even 0.
14:20:46 <ehird> In conclusion: Static binaries? Nosiree, not here.
14:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, those unhide ones are related to some rootkit checker iirc
14:21:04 <AnMaster> also I have /usr/bin/makedumpfile
14:21:45 <ehird> I have a rather closer to stock Ubuntu, so mine is likely more typical.
14:21:46 <AnMaster> oh related to kexec-to-dump-stuff-on-oops it seems
14:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I have installed a few more packages yes
14:21:58 <Ilari> The reason its named that way is that klibc has absolutely no forwards or backwards binary compatiblity.
14:22:22 <ehird> Ilari: Is it so incompatible that it requires something close to a UUID or keyboard-forehead in its name?
14:23:01 <AnMaster> /usr/lib/libnfsidmap_static.so.0.0.0: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, stripped
14:23:14 <Ilari> Heh, ntfs-3g is statically linked here...
14:23:20 <ehird> No, Alanis Morisette.
14:23:24 <ehird> That is not ironic.
14:23:51 <AnMaster> anyway, static and dynamic. Of course it probably means static something else
14:23:54 <ehird> Yet Another Sorta-Internet Pop Culture Reference.
14:24:07 <Ilari> ehird: The dynamic linking mechanism it uses is really primitive. IIRC, it works by abusing PT_INTERP.
14:25:01 <Ilari> ehird: IIRC, programs linked against klibc claim that the klibc is dynamic linker to use. Then the kernel will link klibc into application.
14:25:12 <AnMaster> PT_INTERP... isn't that the thing that says "I want /lib64/ld.so" or "I want /lib/ld-linux.so" (or whatever the 32-bit ld.so is called)
14:25:26 <ehird> I'm not surprised, though. Linux is kludge upon kludge.
14:25:44 <AnMaster> ehird, PT_INTERP is POSIX though
14:25:51 <Ilari> ehird: AFAIK, that linking capaiblity is required for ELF support.
14:26:15 <ehird> POSIX is kludge upon kludge, except now you have to be very specific about exactly *what* kludges you use.
14:26:21 <ehird> Hooray for standardisation!
14:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, windows is way way worseEx.
14:27:00 <ehird> Windows has more of a history to justify its kludginess.
14:27:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? everyone wants backward compatiblity. Not only the windows ppl
14:27:44 <AnMaster> and is OS X any better? Not IME
14:29:33 <Ilari> Debian apt-get funkyness: Package that declares both conflicts and provodes for "essential" package will trigger nasty warning on install... :-/
14:30:05 <ehird> AnMaster: OS X's base is obviously quite kludgy, although the BSDs are generally more pure.
14:30:15 <ehird> But as soon as you step into Objective-C land it's very clean.
14:30:29 <Ilari> The package I noted that in: xz-utils. It provodes and conflicts with lzma, which is considered essential.
14:30:42 <fizzie> "file /bin/* /sbin/* /usr/bin/* /usr/sbin/* | grep static" outputs just /sbin/ldconfig, nothing else.
14:31:23 <fizzie> Well, I guess it's not "of course" because I have that laptop too.
14:31:25 <ehird> They should make that their motto.
14:31:28 <ehird> "Debian, of course".
14:31:37 <ehird> Although the NetBSD guys might complain.
14:31:37 <AnMaster> /sbin/lvm: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:31:37 <AnMaster> /sbin/lvm.static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:31:45 <ehird> Of course it runs Debian/kNetBSD, of course.
14:32:32 <AnMaster> ehird, of course of course, a distro is a distro
14:32:49 <ehird> A distro is a distro, of course of course, and you can't ...something a distro, of course of course.
14:32:51 <AnMaster> (if you don't understand that, ask ais)
14:33:10 <AnMaster> /sbin/iptables-static: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:33:22 <ehird> Does what it says on the tin.
14:33:37 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it doesn't. Read again
14:34:19 <AnMaster> ehird, another thing that may be static:
14:34:20 <AnMaster> /usr/sbin/prelink: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), statically linked, for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, stripped
14:34:39 <AnMaster> probably not standard on ubuntu
14:35:17 <Ilari> Then I have one statically linked utility that has sole purpose of unlinking ld.so.cache...
14:36:41 <Ilari> AnMaster: No, 'saveme'. Absolutely no arguments to control it.
14:37:13 <AnMaster> hey they redesigned (slightly) kernel.org
14:37:46 <AnMaster> Ilari, ok, why is saveme useful?
14:38:06 <Ilari> AnMaster: If ld.so.cache happens to get busted for some reason...
14:38:22 <Ilari> Oops, its not ld.so.cache, its ld.so.preload
14:38:40 <AnMaster> I never even seen ld.so.preload
14:39:16 <AnMaster> and from man ld.so... ld.so.preload seems like a extremely idiotic idea
14:43:32 <ehird> Annoying that XChat and XChat-Gnome both suck.
14:43:57 <AnMaster> ehird, xchat-gnome yes. But xchat is quite good IMO. Best one after ERC.
14:44:21 <ehird> Actually, XChat-Gnome is better than XChat because it has all the flaws apart from overcomplexity, and is lighter.
14:44:27 <ehird> But it still sucks.
14:44:29 <bsmntbombdood> ehird, you live in the united states, it's too early to be awake
14:44:57 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, I thought ehird was in UK?
14:45:25 <ehird> So bsmntbombdood is on crack or something.
14:45:27 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes I'm 100% sure, unless he moved very recently
14:46:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood is confused about my location as he is his gender.
14:46:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood becomes bsmntbombgirl every now and then and vice versa :-P
14:47:16 <bsmntbombdood> i am 100% sure ehird lives in on of those great lakes states
14:47:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how
14:47:35 <ehird> i'm wondering what kind of thought process lead to this
14:47:47 <ehird> (but from my /whois you can plainly see I'm in the UK. or at least sshing in there...)
14:47:56 <AnMaster> ehird, * [ehird] (n=ehird@91.105.73.170): Elliott Hird
14:48:03 <AnMaster> you would have to look up that IP
14:48:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I was going to get to that!
14:48:13 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: no seriously, who are you confusing me with? :D
14:48:48 <AnMaster> RIPE claims it is UK when I looked it up that way
14:48:59 <AnMaster> inetnum: 91.105.64.0 - 91.105.127.255
14:49:27 <AnMaster> and later down there is a more specific entry
14:49:31 <ehird> Wanadoo? I don't think they've absorbed Orange...
14:49:38 <ehird> Oh, wait, of course.
14:50:05 <ehird> Hey, so I moved from Wanadoo to other ISPs to Wanadoo.
14:50:10 <ehird> Well, it was called freeserve before, but.
14:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird, weren't you going to switch to some tiny ISP?
14:50:31 <AnMaster> what happened with those plans?
14:50:37 <AnMaster> same as with new computer plans?
14:50:40 <ehird> It could happen immediately, but you know me. I'd want to have the domain ready for the DNS beforehand.
14:50:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but you live in the US too
14:50:56 <ehird> AnMaster: The new computer plans just morphed.
14:51:07 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 .").
14:51:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> bsmntbombdood: but you live in the US too <-- aha! you wouldn't have said "too" unless you were lying above about being in UK! ;P
14:51:28 <ehird> Who the hell even uses Yahoo Messenger?
14:51:29 <ehird> AnMaster: dun dun dun
14:52:11 <bsmntbombdood> but i'm having a weird hungover can't sleep after 5 hours of sleep
14:52:35 <ehird> eat an unborn fetus
14:52:46 <ehird> it doesn't help hangovers, but it enrages pro-lifers
14:52:59 <ehird> ...also anti-cannibalists, but
14:53:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> eat an unborn fetus <-- somehow that first parsed as "urban" on first try.
14:53:33 <ehird> You need the organic country fetuses.
14:53:38 <ehird> Support local farmers!
14:53:54 <AnMaster> ehird, wait for it. You want to know what happened on the second try?
14:54:04 <AnMaster> then finally correct on the third try
14:54:19 <ehird> Unborn urban unicorn fetuses.
14:59:46 <ehird> I wonder why window resizing doesn't show it as you do it with Compiz.
14:59:58 <ehird> I mean, come on; how am I supposed to size a window to my liking if I don't know what it'll look like?
15:00:20 <ehird> Fixed in Compiz control center.
15:01:26 <ehird> Naturally it's a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh.
15:01:42 <ehird> Nice to have a card that has literally no good drivers that I can use, no matter what freedoms I want.
15:02:11 <AnMaster> <ehird> Naturally it's a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. <-- even with metacity on intel graphics it works very nice
15:02:24 <AnMaster> same for kwin on nvidia drivers. But that is expected
15:02:32 <ehird> Uh, Metacity doesn't resize the window in-place does it?
15:02:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:02:50 <AnMaster> ehird, it previews as I go along at least
15:03:11 <ehird> Window moving is smooth, I guess; it just flickers.
15:03:14 <AnMaster> a tiny jerk every now and then for konsole, none at all in kate
15:03:16 <ehird> Like, it redraws each pixel.
15:03:19 <ehird> So it's a bit jerky at the edges.
15:03:34 <ehird> (the actual moving is quick)
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, the fact is that I'm stuck using the shitty radeon driver.
15:03:53 <ehird> I am aware what the problem is.
15:04:00 <ehird> radeonhd doesn't seem to give me 3D, or something, and the only fglrx supporting this X11 version doesn't support my card.
15:04:08 <ehird> AnMaster: thing is, it worked last Ubuntu
15:04:20 <ehird> where fglrx was a version supporting my card, and the X11 version was older
15:04:27 <ehird> it was perfect and flowers and kittens then
15:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, file a bug which devs will look at in a few months if you are lucky
15:04:45 <ehird> "please make this not suck"?
15:04:58 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems to be what half the bugs currently there do
15:05:02 <ehird> they'll respond "lol donate code and cocksucking to these wonderful LIBRE drivers"
15:05:15 <ehird> or perhaps even just "the free drivers work perfectly. what are you talking about."
15:05:32 <AnMaster> ehird, there isn't a lot anyone can do about closed source not supporting current systems
15:05:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Except that the hardware specs for ATI cards are Free.
15:06:05 <AnMaster> the specs haven't been free for very long
15:06:29 <ehird> How about I bludgeon the X11 developers to death and tell them to never break backwards-compatibility ever again? :P
15:06:39 <ehird> I am willing to sacrifice my principles for fglrx!
15:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, then you get something like POSIX in a few years
15:06:56 <ehird> Oh fuck, my notebook will have an even older ATI card
15:07:09 <AnMaster> ehird, buy a new notebook then
15:07:16 <ehird> OTOH, it'll fail horribly at Compiz, most likely
15:07:18 <ehird> or at least be superfluous
15:07:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Widescreen, dude
15:07:36 <ehird> it's the 11th version of X
15:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you can survive widescreen
15:07:59 <AnMaster> it's like there will never be Mac OS Y (or Mac OS XI)
15:08:20 <ehird> AnMaster: No, because the only acceptable widescreen is 12", which, while being as wide as a 14" 4:3, has such a huge screen border and is widescreen, and so it's really tiny.
15:08:34 <ehird> 12" 16:10 + big border is simply not an acceptable screen size for my main machine.
15:08:49 <ehird> Because that's what the X200 has.
15:09:05 <AnMaster> ehird, what is "big border" by your standards
15:09:19 <ehird> http://www.goodcleantech.com/images/Lenovo%20X200.jpg
15:09:51 <ehird> AnMaster: If you want comparison,
15:10:06 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/34871.jpg
15:10:12 <ehird> Pictured: Big border, big border, small border.
15:10:39 <fizzie> Hey, at least with X.Org we finally got a X11R7; it was X11R6 for quite a long long time. (1994-2005, based on Wikipedia; they got from X1 to X11 in three years, from X11 to X11R6 in seven, and it took eleven years to get through X11R6...)
15:10:39 <ehird> Anyway, it simply makes the already tiny 12" 16:10 screen even smaller.
15:10:55 <ehird> It's an ultraultraportable; a secondary machine for those with money.
15:11:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the middle one seems to have same border size as the left one?
15:11:24 <ehird> X200, X300 (13", has CD drive, slower processor), XX61
15:11:35 <ehird> (X300 is concurrent with X200)
15:12:11 <AnMaster> ehird, also what is wrong with that? Just consider paintings, often with huge borders. Gold coloured. Compared to those, that monitor border is really subtle and small
15:12:27 <AnMaster> just imagine some baroque border around a monitor
15:12:38 <ehird> Please shut up, or I'll start taking what you're saying seriously.
15:13:49 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the X200 seems to have acceptable border size
15:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, for a larger laptop.
15:14:08 <AnMaster> in the other pic, with three computers, what model is the thin border one
15:14:10 <ehird> AnMaster: That whole thing is a bit over 30.5cm wide.
15:14:23 <ehird> That screen is *tiny*.
15:14:26 <ehird> AnMaster: X61, the older X series.
15:14:51 <AnMaster> ehird, about flushed to edges, I would say it's keyboard is that
15:14:55 <ehird> It's 12" and really tiny, but its screen is actually taller, and it is much smaller psychologically (as opposed to being as wide as a normal 14" 4:3 notebook)
15:15:37 <ehird> I don't want the X61, but it's at least understandable, as opposed to the insane X200: all the wideness of a full-sized notebook, none of the screen.
15:16:06 <AnMaster> why the extra border though for the wide screen one
15:16:18 <ehird> Camera, antennas, etc.
15:16:23 <ehird> (Cheaper display, ... :P)
15:16:32 <ehird> (Joking on that last one; the X200 is far from cheap.)
15:16:37 <ehird> AnMaster: For... camera purposes?
15:16:43 <ehird> You know? A camera?
15:16:50 <ehird> Takes pictures and videos of you?
15:16:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but why waste space on that
15:17:06 <ehird> It's a waste because you don't use it?
15:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, when you can use that for making the border smaller
15:17:50 <ehird> Get a no computer. They have infinitely small borders.
15:18:00 <AnMaster> ehird, oh about older thinkpads, you said you wanted pre-n? I guess you plan to get a PC-card then
15:18:01 <ehird> And no, dropping WiFi is not an option.
15:18:14 <AnMaster> which will stick out a fair bit
15:18:15 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't need it
15:18:38 <ehird> You said I can get 800kiB/s with g
15:19:22 <AnMaster> well yes assuming good reception it should work out. You will get lower speed when you are getting near the limit of the range of the AP of course
15:19:49 <ehird> As long as I can get 800kiB/s from across the room the router is in, I'm fine.
15:20:26 <fizzie> I get something like 2-3 MB/s for scp-over-802.11g here.
15:20:32 <ehird> I have one of those infamous Linksys Linux blue-green-and-antennas routers, which probably does WiFi well.
15:20:46 <ehird> fizzie: 1000 or 1024
15:21:03 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pcgenie.co.nz/images/products/WRT54GL.jpg
15:21:14 <ehird> Pretty much "the" wireless router for Linux people, no?
15:21:25 <fizzie> Probably MiB/s, I guess that's what scp says.
15:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and possibly. I don't have that model though.
15:21:38 <ehird> fizzie: what router?
15:21:44 <fizzie> ehird: http://masnugie.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/wap54g2.jpg
15:21:59 <ehird> fizzie: Linksys buddies! :P
15:22:04 <AnMaster> ehird, fizzie, different model
15:22:15 <AnMaster> different number of green dots
15:22:18 <ehird> No, just newer/older
15:22:21 <ehird> And I doubt he took that photo
15:22:28 <fizzie> ehird: there wasn't a "non-L" model of WAP54G back then; I'm not sure there is one now.
15:22:37 <fizzie> It's the access point one, lacking the Ethernet switch.
15:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, different model! Newer model and older model.
15:22:48 <ehird> non-L was Linux, then non-L became vxworks.
15:23:01 <ehird> Then L became Linux for the grubby GPLists and firmware replacers.
15:23:04 <fizzie> Right, well, it was "non-L" back when there were only non-L models.
15:23:46 <AnMaster> <fizzie> It's the access point one, lacking the Ethernet switch. <-- no ethernet at all? Or just one ethernet?
15:23:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just one interface.
15:25:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: The WRT54G has a hardware switch; IIRC the different ports show up to the kernel as one interface but the packets get 802.1Q vlan tags appropriately.
15:25:21 <fizzie> Anyway, the WAP one has just a 2 MiB flash, it's a bit tricky to get alternative firmware for it; at least the default openwrt builds are too fat to fit.
15:26:00 <AnMaster> oh you mean it is somehow faked as one interface + vlan tags instead of several interfaces?
15:26:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: So you can have different behaviour for the ports; one of them is the "WAN" port, for external interweb, while the others are for LAN.
15:26:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, about 2 MiB flash, what about using a basic software that then loads the rest over PXE boot or root on nfs
15:26:57 <fizzie> And it's not really "faked" as one interface, it's just that the Ethernet switching is done in hardware; there's just one switch port directly connected to the WRT board and configured to get those vlan tags. (This is all based on what I remember about it.)
15:27:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: 8 MiB of RAM, so, uh, there's not too much of that either.
15:27:33 <ehird> More RAM than flash :D
15:27:54 <fizzie> Original WRT54G has 4 MiB flash and 16 MiB RAM, so that's a bit larger.
15:27:58 <AnMaster> ehird, not strange at all. After all, it will likely need to keep lots of routing info in ram
15:31:17 * ehird thinks about sandboxing
15:33:18 <AnMaster> ehird, kernel module may be the way to go. Hook in around the same place as SELinux and do stuff there?
15:33:19 <fizzie> Yes, there's a 6-port programmable switch, and the default configuration puts ports 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 in vlan0, and ports 0 and 5 to vlan1; 0 is the one labeled "WAN", 1-4 are the LAN ports and 5 is the one that's eth0 to the WRT; then the stock firmware bridges vlan0 and eth1 (LAN and wifi), and configures routing between vlan1 (interwebs) and br0 (locals).
15:33:33 <ehird> AnMaster: i mean theoretical; to start with i will just ld_preload For My Sanity.
15:33:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait, why are there two WAN ports?
15:34:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, err you said 0 and 5 were on the same vlan?
15:35:08 <fizzie> Yes; to port 0 you connect whatever you want, and port 5 is the one that's physically wired to the WRT board.
15:35:20 <AnMaster> ehird, LD_PRELOAD... Sanity? Surely you are joking.
15:35:29 <fizzie> It wouldn't be very useful to have a single-port vlan on an Ethernet switch, given that the packets wouldn't, you know, go anywhere.
15:35:39 <ehird> It's easy to do and the simplest method to test without assembling a distro.
15:35:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh so port 5 is internal?
15:35:55 <ehird> I can just add "LD_PRELOAD=foo.so" to the start of a command and I'm sorted.
15:36:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, and is connected to eth0. I seriously hope that it is just a few wires, rather than actually an ethernet connector inside
15:36:31 <fizzie> Yes. It also has the special "keep the vlan tags" bit set; for the other ports, the switch doesn't add those.
15:36:54 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, do you think you can root a box with just syscalls?
15:37:04 <fizzie> It's probably on the same piece of board.
15:37:24 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on if I'm root or not at that point. If i'm root in a chroot I could break out of it
15:37:28 <fizzie> If you can root a box at all, you can certainly root it with just syscalls, given that everything else is just user-mode code you could include in the binary.
15:37:33 <AnMaster> and if it was an old kernel I could abuse vmsplice or whatever
15:38:04 <ehird> I'm just trying to figure out how to crack anarchy golf using its seeming lack of syscall overriding :-)
15:38:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well, you couldn't root it as such, but possibly do other unintended things, depending on where the process is. Maybe fill /tmp or something?
15:38:48 <AnMaster> or find out what users exist in /etc/passwd
15:39:00 <ehird> "can allocate >50MB memory" is one of the crack conditions
15:39:07 <AnMaster> of course if it runs without privs and in an empty chroot...
15:39:10 <ehird> * can access network
15:39:10 <ehird> * can allocate >50MB memory
15:39:10 <ehird> * meet stupid things
15:39:26 <AnMaster> ehird, all at once or any of them?
15:39:31 <ehird> If you meet stupid things, it is the bug, I gather.
15:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, there are other ways to restrict the ones mentioned. For network: iptables with "owner" match to match uid, pid or executable name iirc. For allocation there is limits.
15:41:00 <AnMaster> for "be root" well obviously systemcalls doesn't allow that without going through authorised ways, like suid binaries
15:41:07 <fizzie> Yes, given a kernel that does what it should, you should be able to block those three things without any manual syscall blocking.
15:41:42 <AnMaster> I don't know about meeting stupid things
15:41:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: What? But you do that every day here on the channel!
15:42:06 <ehird> Hey! I am NOT a "thing".
15:42:07 <AnMaster> I never met anyone when walking through the directory hierarchy. It's so lonely in /etc...
15:43:00 <AnMaster> someone should write some app to allow you to walk around on your file system in a 3D env
15:43:10 <ehird> This is Unix. I know this!
15:43:51 <ehird> fsn is unix, she knows this.
15:43:53 <AnMaster> that gives "FOX Sports" as first hit in google
15:43:59 <ehird> http://www.siliconbunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/3060c037-069f-4715-a01e-c30e53e505a2.jpg
15:44:23 <fizzie> As seen famously in Jurassic Park.
15:44:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ooh nice, but I was thinking more along the lines of rougelike in 3D
15:44:28 <fizzie> ""It's the Unix system!"
15:44:35 <ehird> fizzie: She knows this.
15:44:37 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
15:44:42 <fizzie> She has it at school, yes.
15:44:52 <ehird> <CONNECTION MACHINE BLINKS>
15:45:03 <AnMaster> I never seen jurassic park btw
15:45:04 <ehird> You can tell it's a mainframe because it has blinkenlights and is big.
15:45:21 <fizzie> Thanks to that comment I just wrote "jurassic machine" instead of "jurassic park".
15:45:42 <ehird> Has a more badass terminologe ever been used?
15:45:56 <ehird> terminology, n. plural of terminologe.
15:45:56 <fizzie> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107290/quotes has the quote (just search for "UNIX") but without context it really doesn't say much.
15:46:02 <AnMaster> anyway, what are you on about. Can you explain what the hell you are talking about
15:46:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: Just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fsn
15:46:37 <ehird> I like how that quotes page is filled with terrible quotes
15:46:49 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
15:47:09 <ehird> Henry Wu: You're implying that a group composed entirely of female animals will... breed?
15:47:09 <ehird> Dr. Ian Malcolm: No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way.
15:47:20 <ehird> Is he expecting them to mutate their own genes in the past or something?
15:48:04 <AnMaster> no what I had in mind was something like... a rouge like dungeon in 3D, representing your file system.
15:48:28 <fizzie> You could probably adapt psdoom to file system use.
15:48:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh that process killer one, ah yes seems a good base.
15:49:08 <ehird> Doom is ALWAYS a good base.
15:49:09 <fizzie> http://psdoom.sourceforge.net/ even lists in Goals: "Possibly make other interfaces besides one to 'ps', such as a file management module. "
15:49:28 <ehird> A restricted directory is accessed by getting the blue sudo key.
15:51:23 <AnMaster> why are all the screenshots so small
15:51:41 <AnMaster> even on my low dpi desktop display
15:51:52 <AnMaster> completey unreadable on my laptop of course
15:52:05 <ehird> But that's the real resolution of Doom
15:52:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what dpi was the screens back then...
15:52:26 <ehird> Give it some Ctrl + magic
15:52:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Uh, CRt.
15:52:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Give it some Ctrl + magic <-- ?
15:52:56 <AnMaster> ehird, that zooms the text only it seems
15:53:26 <ehird> Anyway, 320x200 would fill your whole, I dunno, 15" CRT?
15:53:30 <ehird> (So about 13" viewable)
15:53:52 -!- adam_d__ has joined.
15:54:35 <fizzie> That's something like 30 dpi; not too shabby. Pixels smaller than a millimeter is nothing to sneer at.
15:54:55 <ehird> Yes, well, the pixels stretched out.
15:54:59 <ehird> This *is* a CRT...
15:55:46 <fizzie> CRTs do have a native DPI-style limit from the shadow mask/aperture grille, though.
15:57:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, there tends to be a max res you can set on CRTs too. So clearly it is limited in some way.
15:58:34 <ehird> That's what he said...
15:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I agreed with him...
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16:02:02 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:02:14 <fizzie> Hey, I found an old picture of that Performa mac I used to have: http://zem.fi/~fis/random.jpg
16:02:47 <ehird> It looks like an old Mac.
16:03:01 <ehird> Hey, that keyboard is a clicky one. Hope you kept it.
16:03:11 * oerjan stereotypically assumes fizzie keeps pictures of his computers instead of family
16:03:37 <fizzie> Er, well, it was an ADB thing, and anyway "part of the box", so since I sold the computer, I sort-of had to give the keyboard with it too.
16:03:52 <ehird> fizzie: You can tell by that flat power-on key.
16:04:04 <ehird> It uses real mechanical keyswitches. Alps ones, not even manufactured any more. In fact that keyboard is famous.
16:04:09 <oerjan> turn on the flat power
16:04:10 <ehird> You coulda sold it for as much money as the computer. :P
16:04:29 <fizzie> Hey, I also found the posters I had on the wall at that apartment: http://zem.fi/~fis/juliste3.jpg
16:05:07 <ehird> They look like very dull old printer posters.
16:05:46 <fizzie> The one on the left was written by mooz, I think. Too bad they're not really readable.
16:06:24 <ehird> #ECE7D4 is quite a nice background colour.
16:06:41 <oerjan> what is the right one a picture of?
16:06:43 <ehird> For a desktop, that is.
16:06:53 <ehird> oerjan: the isometric comic
16:07:42 <fizzie> Yes, I'll try to locate the link.
16:07:53 <fizzie> http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/only_when_youre_ready/
16:08:04 <ehird> What happened to http://www.pixelcomic.net/ :(
16:08:45 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:09:32 <fizzie> Anyway, the picture I was actually looking for was: http://zem.fi/~fis/skreen.jpg -- that's my old CRT, which I typically ran at 1600x1200 even though it didn't really support a resolution that high very well, especially at the edges of the screen, as you can probably see.
16:10:19 <fizzie> (There's a bit of extra blurring also from the photography, but the RGB misalignment is very real.)
16:11:30 <ehird> That must have hurt your eyes.
16:11:49 <ehird> !/usr/bin/ff, I think.
16:11:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: "ff", the name of my Befunge interpreter.
16:11:55 <ehird> I'm pretty sure that's a !.
16:12:17 <ehird> What's the last character
16:12:25 <fizzie> That's a ], to end the prompt.
16:12:45 <ehird> But this is a shebang line.
16:12:54 <ehird> I thought ] too first
16:12:55 <fizzie> It's the name of the channel; it's an irssi screenshot.
16:13:13 <ehird> Oh, I thought that was the start of a shell in a split screen(1) type thing
16:13:37 <fizzie> It was one of those "like a query, except with four people" channels.
16:13:58 <Deewiant> "ff" is the name of your befunge interpreter?
16:13:59 <fizzie> Not very likely to have others that desperately wanted the coveted "#!/usr/bin/ff" channel too.
16:14:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: The name of one, yes. It was a strictly Befunge-93 type of thing, with an emphasis on "fast", and I don't think I ever released it.
16:15:56 <fizzie> Deewiant: About the only distinctive thing in it was that it had (with suitable C preprocessor macros) four copies of most instructions, for all cardinal directions, with the IP movement parts and a computed-goto-to-next-instruction inlined directly after the instruction processing.
16:16:24 <ehird> --- PRIVMSG :Too many recipients. Only 1 processed
16:16:31 <ehird> IRC clients that disable a,b users suck!
16:18:59 <fizzie> I think it might also have had a nonstandard 256x256 playfield, to make it so that a single "unsigned char ip[2];" worked as the IP, with byte-sized ++ and -- doing automatic wrapping, and "*(unsigned short *)ip" as the offset to the playfield.
16:20:53 <fizzie> Though mooz's approach of "80x25 playfield in an 82x27-sized block of memory, simple increment/decrement for IP movement, borders lined with special instructions that actually did the wrapping" was pretty fast too.
16:22:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: iwc :) (although it was obvious)
16:23:57 <fizzie> Gnah, I wonder how many days it will take me to unlearn the "hover a cursor in the top navigation bar in search of the Darths & Droids link" reflex.
16:25:00 <ehird> s/\/\n\*\?/?/, just to make it oh-so-clear.
16:25:25 <fizzie> Why wonder, why unlearn, why such a reflex, why something else? (Not that I probably have any answers.)
16:25:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, read it hours ago, and was afk when you joined
16:25:35 <ehird> fizzie: Why unlearn?
16:26:07 <fizzie> Because the link is no longer there.
16:26:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is the link no longer there
16:26:42 <ehird> That's less amusing.
16:26:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: What did you use to measure speed?
16:26:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah it irritates me too that they moved them to the bottom
16:27:15 <ehird> Change is bad and you should feel bad.
16:27:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, I don't remember, it was so long ago. life.bf, I would guess.
16:28:17 <fizzie> Yes, but you can measure the character output flow rate. :p
16:28:20 <oerjan> fizzie: i've started going from mezzacotta instead of from iwc, less scrolling to find the links
16:28:56 <ehird> http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/
16:28:59 <fizzie> I do have a bookmark, I've just gotten into the habit of navigating there from iwc.
16:30:07 <ehird> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=156 actually made me laugh)
16:30:31 <oerjan> fizzie: DMM said in the forum the upper menu got too long when he added Archive Binge iirc
16:31:03 * ehird considers RiemannZeta(Garfield)
16:31:08 <fizzie> Hm, is there an Archive Binge link somewhere, then?
16:32:30 <oerjan> maybe it was Awkward Fumbles
16:32:33 <fizzie> Oh, that's another DMM feature? Saw it advertised on somewhere, hadn't realized it was so.
16:32:51 <fizzie> Archive Binge, I mean.
16:33:45 <oerjan> what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it...
16:34:13 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Though mooz's approach of "80x25 playfield in an 82x27-sized block of memory, simple increment/decrement for IP movement, borders lined with special instructions that actually did the wrapping" was pretty fast too. <-- hm.... I wonder if that could be translated to 98, and if so, how efficient it would be
16:34:24 <AnMaster> you would have to rewrite the borders as program expanded
16:34:41 <AnMaster> depending on how the program behaved it could be a huge slow down or a small speed up I guess
16:34:48 <oerjan> or maybe it was that Facebook link
16:34:49 <fizzie> Doesn't sound all that feasible; you'd have to somehow catch all possible deltas.
16:35:03 <Deewiant> Oh, you added something at the end.
16:35:25 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "quote ← comment" syntax is confusing.
16:35:26 <Deewiant> Do it some other way, that way I always tend to miss what you say on the first read.
16:35:27 <AnMaster> I always forgot about messy non-cardinal deltas
16:35:55 <fizzie> It's the same general shape, anyway.
16:36:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I shall use %% or // then I guess
16:36:07 <Deewiant> That's just alpha-conversion, they're all equivalent.
16:36:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah, what does that term mean?
16:36:48 <Deewiant> Renaming bound variables in lambda expressions.
16:40:00 <Deewiant> Anyway, doing it in 98 should work fine, just handle noncardinals separately.
16:40:14 <Deewiant> Wrapping around with them is likely quite rare.
16:40:15 <oerjan> <Deewiant> That's just alpha-conversion, they're all equivalent. MY RESPONSE: is this equivalent too?
16:40:23 <ehird> <oerjan> what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it...
16:41:31 <oerjan> ehird: i suppose. it's just if it gets _really_ popular, and is used for a lot of external webcomics...
16:41:33 <ehird> "We only include webcomics whose authors have given us permission to make feeds of their work. We do this out of respect for their work and allowing authors to control the distribution of their own property."
16:41:36 <ehird> Well that's useless, then.
16:41:51 <ehird> oerjan: how much bandwidth could it possibly use
16:41:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have to detect that condition though
16:41:54 <ehird> they don't host the images
16:42:03 <ehird> at most, a few hundred gb a month
16:42:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so instead of testing if it is in range you now test if it is cardinal or not
16:42:18 <oerjan> ehird: i don't know. i suppose they must have thought about it.
16:42:32 <ehird> irregularwebcomic is really popular and free.
16:42:38 <ehird> It's never the cost.
16:42:47 <ehird> (unless you're *HUGE*)
16:42:50 <oerjan> ehird: otherwise they wouldn't make the pledge
16:43:03 <ehird> That's just "ads in RSS feeds suck".
16:43:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> <oerjan> what i am wondering is how long they can keep that up if it gets popular, given that they've pledged not to use ads or earn money from it... <-- context?
16:43:15 <ehird> Plus it's in an FAQ.
16:43:17 <ehird> They have all kinds of shit
16:43:52 <oerjan> ehird: oh. it's just that i saw girl genius break their hosting quotas several times... admittedly once was because of their weird two-track structure suddenly merging, but they have broken it again after that
16:44:14 <oerjan> admittedly they may be among the largest, they won a hugo after all
16:44:17 <ehird> Isn't that comic on comicgenesis or some crap?
16:44:34 <ehird> Anyway, most people are cheapskates.
16:44:42 <ehird> The person running irregularwebcomic, which is quite big, probably isn't.
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16:45:48 <oerjan> i suppose they _would_ be cheapskates on costs given they are actually earning a living from it
16:47:16 <ehird> The hosting bill for irregular webcomic might break $100. I don't know how much readership it has, really.
16:47:32 <ehird> I estimate it to probably be around $50-75 if it's on a VPS, $30-40 otherwise.
16:47:39 <ehird> (More if it's a dedi, obviously.)
16:48:17 * oerjan vaguely recalls somewhere around two or three thousand
16:48:44 <ehird> Well that's basically nothing.
16:48:57 <oerjan> maybe that was people who answered the polls
16:49:50 <oerjan> yeah that cannot be right then
16:57:11 <ehird> ...uh. Going to code and I draw a blank. Let's install... gvim. Yeah. That'll do. For now.
16:57:17 <ehird> Damn unfamiliar environments!
16:58:19 <oerjan> gvim for your gvisual needs!
16:59:00 <ehird> And yet the modality is not yet learnt to me, so it's quite annoying
16:59:58 <ehird> You know me; I'll go and make a redesign of the menu system or something as soon as I start it.
17:00:06 <ehird> That thing could be *useful*, dammit!
17:00:17 <ehird> But it's worth a try.
17:00:36 <oerjan> ehird: stop channeling zzo there :D
17:00:56 <ehird> Well, the menu system is really bad. :P
17:01:07 <ehird> AIEEEEEEEEEEE HOLY FUCK MY EYES
17:01:14 <ehird> Emacs uses its own antialiasing settings it seems...
17:01:21 <ehird> Bad dog! Less hinting! Ow! Ow! Ow!
17:01:29 <ehird> The text is tingling goddammit.
17:01:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I don't believe in shoehorning a VT100 to emulate graphical controls.
17:01:55 * oerjan is _so_ glad he doesn't have a keen sense of aesthetics
17:02:25 <ehird> And also because there's no reason not to, and it offers more integration with the world around it, and more font possibilities, and I can view images from inside emacs, and use multiple frames, and have scrollbars (albeit sucky ones).
17:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, here emacs looks correct... 23.1.1
17:02:46 <AnMaster> it seems to use less antialias than most other stuff, previously it used same
17:02:50 <ehird> Presumably your hinting/subpixel settings are similar enough to it that you don't notice, or identical.
17:03:04 <ehird> I use slight hinting + rgb, so I have quite "thick" text.
17:03:22 <ehird> Emacs' is very, very thin, very hinted, only slightly subpixeled text: it quite literally tingles at the edges.
17:03:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I prefer "crisp" font most of the time
17:03:29 <ehird> It's overly-crisp.
17:03:43 <ehird> Anyway, I'm using "blurry" fonts because the crisp ones are basically horrible with freetype.
17:03:44 <AnMaster> ehird, here, emacs in X mode uses no antialias as far as I can tell
17:04:12 <AnMaster> emacs 22 uses system settings as far as I can tell
17:04:17 <ehird> Now for the fun bit: can I make this not suck using only the GUI, even getting to the config page? This will be amusing!
17:04:43 <ehird> Oh boy, Emacs draws its own tooltip windows.
17:04:48 <ehird> Gotta love the NIH.
17:04:57 <AnMaster> they look completely normal here
17:05:05 <ehird> I know this because the compiz window creation/fade out thing and window shadows appear.
17:05:13 <ehird> So it's very annoying.
17:05:20 <ehird> Also, they look different (background, border, text size, etc.)
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17:05:55 <ehird> You can't kill a buffer from the menus. What an interesting oversight.
17:06:10 <ehird> (Note: That's not actually useful, but it just goes to show that these menus are very hodgepodge)
17:06:34 <ehird> Ugh, the customize groups are so unhelpful.
17:07:21 <AnMaster> ehird, you can. in the file menu, select close?
17:07:37 <ehird> But I'm not closing the file (it's not even a file), I'm killing the buffer.
17:07:50 <ehird> Obviously in a misguided attempt to provide a WIMP-like interface...
17:07:53 -!- adam_d__ has changed nick to adam_d.
17:08:06 <ehird> Seems strange that the Emacs developers would create an interface good for the novice at the expense of people who know how it works.
17:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, "But I want to eject the usb stick, not delete it" <-- ejecting on mac os X
17:08:17 <ehird> I guess they see menus as a useless kiddie sort of thing.
17:08:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that sucks.
17:08:36 <ehird> I don't think OS X is perfect, it's just good.
17:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't help that Cmd-e ejects, and the key combo for moving to trash is another
17:09:01 <ehird> The difference is that with Emacs I have a minute chance of fixing it upstream, and can definitely fix it locally.
17:09:19 <ehird> Thus why I complain.
17:09:25 <ehird> Because it's less pointless.
17:09:34 <AnMaster> ehird, you may want Environment -> X
17:09:57 <ehird> Nope; that group appears to be completley useless.
17:10:16 <ehird> Yeah. First I want to move the scrollbar to the right, though.
17:10:22 <ehird> (You know, where it is on every other program.)
17:10:37 <AnMaster> ehird, not every other app. Most ones yes, but there are other like emacs
17:10:45 <ehird> Not GTK ones, at least.
17:10:50 <ehird> (Not good ones, at least.)
17:11:01 <ehird> I'm using Emacs GTK, of course.
17:11:25 <ehird> The whole point of a graphical Emacs is to fit into the environment, plus the scrollbars it uses otherwise are simply horrific.
17:11:34 <ehird> Also, I don't think you can do antialiasing with regular X.
17:11:46 <ehird> (Oh, and the menus are doubly-horrific, but that doesn't matter if the menus are useless.)
17:12:07 <ehird> I wonder why customize has no search.
17:12:24 <ehird> In the menus but not in the customize window. Heh.
17:12:40 <ehird> "Settings Matching Regexp..." vs "Options Matching Regexp..."
17:12:48 <ehird> I can't even think of a sane distinction you could make between those.
17:13:13 <ehird> But this is more fun. :)
17:15:45 <AnMaster> ehird, for me the emacs 23 fonts are WAY to stretched. Horrible.
17:16:00 <AnMaster> since I found nothing useful in docs either
17:16:02 <ehird> They are the way to Stretched.
17:16:16 <ehird> AnMaster: try decreasing font size.
17:17:53 <ehird> This is irritating.
17:18:17 <ehird> Oh well; time to bite the bullet and write some lisp.
17:18:24 <ehird> First step, Google to move those fucking backup filse.
17:18:47 <AnMaster> ehird, options -> set default font
17:18:58 <AnMaster> now to find out what the old one uses
17:19:05 <ehird> Probably a bitmap font.
17:19:10 <ehird> Just put the size down a bit, it'll look fine.
17:19:31 <AnMaster> what was the command to inspect X stuff now again...
17:19:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Just ask emacs.
17:19:47 <AnMaster> some kind of window letting you click an X window and get stuff about it
17:19:47 <ehird> Oh yay, Custom added a bunch of shit to my .emacs.
17:19:53 <AnMaster> ehird, not emacs related. X related
17:19:59 <ehird> Why can't they just do it using functions?
17:20:04 <ehird> (setq transient-mark-mode t)
17:20:45 <ehird> Anyway, I recommend Dejavu sans mono 10pt
17:20:48 <ehird> It's decent enough
17:21:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> (setq transient-mark-mode t) <-- what does that do?
17:22:07 <ehird> I think it's default nowadays, but Custom put it in there anyway.
17:22:11 <ehird> I think it highlights the selection.
17:22:12 <fizzie> It does the region-highlighting.
17:22:13 <ehird> Xft.hintstyle:hintslight
17:22:18 <ehird> So my Xft shit is fine
17:22:21 <fizzie> And it indeed is the default nowadays.
17:23:31 <AnMaster> ehird, the menu thing only lets you select from a list
17:23:37 <AnMaster> which doesn't contain dejavu here at least
17:23:41 * ehird disables the totally useless toolbar
17:23:48 <ehird> AnMaster: It's the gtk list.
17:24:00 <ehird> Are you sure you're using 23/gtk?
17:24:15 <AnMaster> GNU Emacs 23.1.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.14.7)
17:24:20 <ehird> Screenshot of dialog
17:24:26 <fizzie> There's the emacs-internal list thing I've seen; but here the "set default fonts" does pop up the normal GTK+ font select-o-tron.
17:24:38 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no dialog, just a pop up menu under mouse with a set of font selections
17:24:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Well that's wrong.
17:24:57 <ehird> Those are bitmap fonts.
17:24:58 <fizzie> That doesn't sound so very GTK-integrated to me.
17:25:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Your Emacs wasn't built with Xft.
17:25:14 <ehird> So you're hallucinating any antialiased fonts.
17:25:19 <fizzie> Your Emacs wasn't built in a day, you know.
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17:25:41 <fizzie> I'm sure you can do an Emacs build with Xft but without the GTK font selection list, though.
17:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. I can tell that 23 and 22 looks very different, both show the same menu thingy though
17:26:04 <ehird> Hey, you can move the scrollbar from the menus.
17:26:42 <ehird> Unfortunately it doesn't seem like you can persist hiding the toolbar with Save Options. Sigh.
17:26:49 <ehird> It's clear nobody uses this thiing.
17:27:01 <AnMaster> ehird, options yes, no view under it
17:27:15 <fizzie> "Options -> Show/Hide" here.
17:27:51 <ehird> wtf no emacs in my menus
17:28:13 <ehird> Oh, it just isn't showing that one. Odd.
17:29:52 <ehird> More customize cruft, less suck.
17:29:58 <ehird> Now for the biggun: Xft. Then backup files. Then tada.
17:30:08 <AnMaster> ehird, found it: M-x customize-faces RET default RET
17:30:13 <AnMaster> change that number from 118 to 101
17:30:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, well I compared emacs-22 and emacs-23 settings
17:31:01 <ehird> What's under Font Family?
17:31:03 <AnMaster> and found that 122 and 101 was the different values, changing it fixed it
17:31:28 <ehird> It's not antialiased.
17:31:38 <AnMaster> ehird, right, I like this look though
17:32:00 <ehird> Courier is ugly as fuck.
17:32:05 <ehird> Argh, I wish Emacs didn't grab your cursor along as you scrolled.
17:32:16 <ehird> Yes. Women hate Courier too.
17:32:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> Argh, I wish Emacs didn't grab your cursor along as you scrolled. <-- what do you mean? I can't reproduce it
17:33:17 <ehird> Scroll down. Watch your text cursor scroll with it.
17:33:26 <ehird> Perform in other graphical app. Note this not happening, and your place is kept.
17:35:27 <AnMaster> thought you meant the mouse cursor
17:37:28 <ehird> I poke things with it!
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17:40:15 <AnMaster> ehird, other suggested editors: kate, gedit?
17:40:50 <AnMaster> ehird, kate is very good, and KDE4 didn't manage to mess it up too much. Just remember to enable some of the plugin thingies
17:41:17 <ehird> What does kate have over gedit?
17:42:43 <ehird> Installing, though.
17:42:48 <ehird> If KDE breaks my system, I blame you. :)
17:42:56 <AnMaster> ehird, side bar for open documents for example. More options. Can't find stuff like line numbers and such in gedit either
17:43:02 <ehird> Also, late KDE 4 versions seem like an improvement to me. What are its flaws, other than change?
17:43:22 <ehird> gedit has such a sidebar. I mostly use tabs. What I value is a file tree to open and switch files of a given folder.
17:43:33 <ehird> Poor man's project management.
17:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, the new search feature is worse IMO. On one hand it is search as you type now, which is nice
17:43:54 <AnMaster> previously if you had your pointer in a word it would automatically enter that word when you hit ctrl-f
17:44:05 <AnMaster> now you need to select the word first for that to happen
17:44:13 <AnMaster> can't find anywhere to change it
17:44:14 <ehird> Doesn't bother me.
17:44:20 <ehird> I mean what's wrong with KDE 4 in general.
17:44:23 <ehird> Not 4.0, of course.
17:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I thought you meant kate
17:44:47 <AnMaster> well, I just found it horrible when I tried. Plus buggy. And that was 4.2 iirc
17:45:06 <Deewiant> "Horrible plus buggy" describes most software.
17:45:23 <ehird> AnMaster: That's descriptive.
17:45:27 <ehird> I posit that you just hate change.
17:45:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hah. Well stuff like how the menus worked and what not. I couldn't even find any way to make it better
17:45:40 <AnMaster> since the control center thingy kept segfaulting on me
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17:45:54 <ehird> Well, Kate doesn't use either my Gtk theme or my Gtk/Xresources font settings.
17:45:56 <ehird> A reassuring start.
17:46:02 <AnMaster> ehird, you can change that easily
17:46:03 <ehird> QGtkStyle, I hope there's a package.
17:46:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Don't care, it's annoying. :P
17:46:16 <AnMaster> ehird, just go to the KDE control center, and select GTK as theme
17:46:25 <ehird> Especially since the KDE 4 default theme is ugly.
17:46:35 <ehird> Hey, I close Kate and it segfaults.
17:46:37 <AnMaster> ehird, agreed. I dislike the default KDE 4 theme too
17:46:42 <ehird> I didn't even do anything to it.
17:47:01 <ehird> No QGtkStyle package.
17:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed, I think it is included with QT directly nowdays
17:47:35 <ehird> Clicking "Terminal" opens up a blank pane, instead of, say, "Hey! Install Konsole!"
17:47:40 <ehird> Polished, this thing :P
17:47:51 <ehird> AnMaster: lemme guess, I need kcontrol or something else similarly bloated?
17:48:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I installed konsole before. But it sounds like ubuntu package maintainers fail at dependencies.
17:48:13 <ehird> Oh, there's a Qt configuration thinig.
17:48:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess you could do it manually in ~/.kde
17:48:22 <ehird> Yet it's using the Gtk style, so...???
17:48:47 <ehird> Alas the Qt configuratormotron has no hinting thing.
17:48:50 <ehird> Guess I'll install kcontrol.
17:49:02 <ehird> Or whatever it is these days.
17:49:23 <AnMaster> grep says ~/.kde/share/config/kdeglobals:widgetStyle=gtk+
17:49:28 <AnMaster> but that is an ini style file iirc
17:50:25 <ehird> It does, but it still uses gtk icons.
17:50:43 <ehird> (And still acts like a KDE application, but that's a given.)
17:51:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I have it set to gtk for icons too iirc
17:51:36 <AnMaster> ./config/kdeglobals:Theme=gnome
17:52:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and for hinting, it is again same file. section General
17:52:27 <ehird> hintslight, you mean.
17:52:40 <ehird> Anything to make it use the Gtk/Gnome file chooser?
17:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no idea, anything wrong with the KDE one?
17:53:08 <ehird> Yes, it's different :P
17:53:20 <ehird> Same icons are used.
17:54:08 <ehird> AnMaster: open kate, click "Close" toolbar icon while no file is open, file->quit
17:54:17 <AnMaster> oh also you may want to update the syntax highlight files: Settings -> Kate settings : Editor \ Open and saving : last tab, last button
17:54:21 <ehird> also, hint change did nothing
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18:05:20 <ehird> Think I'll try redcar.
18:06:12 <ehird> WTF? Redcar is moving to JRuby with SWT...
18:06:14 <ehird> Way to shit up a project.
18:06:52 <ehird> Horrible font rendering, slow GUI, no desktop integration...
18:16:40 <ehird> ERROR: ld.so: object 'sandbox.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
18:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, oh another KDE 4 fuckup: in the "open files"-tab on the side of kate you used to have one click to select a file, makes sense. And this wasn't related to single/double click in file browser or file selection dialog
18:17:08 <AnMaster> ehird, now in KDE 4 they are connected, you can't get double click in file chooser and single click in open file list
18:17:45 <AnMaster> same for in other selection dialogs, like the KDE control center one
18:18:27 <ehird> Oh, I needed ./sandbox.so
18:19:01 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/Code/sandbox$ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so ls
18:19:03 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you prevent calling yourself when LD_PRELOADED and wanting to call the underlying libc function?
18:19:09 <ehird> sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so
18:19:09 <ehird> No exiting for you!
18:19:09 <ehird> sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so
18:19:09 <ehird> No exiting for you!
18:19:09 <ehird> sandbox.c sandbox.c~ sandbox.so
18:19:10 <ehird> No exiting for you!
18:19:17 <ehird> Well I didn't expect that to happen.
18:19:22 <ehird> Does _start loop or something?
18:19:33 <ehird> in your initialiser thing
18:19:43 <AnMaster> ehird, what did you do to make that looping happen
18:19:49 <ehird> void exit(int status)
18:19:49 <ehird> printf("No exiting for you!\n");
18:20:16 <AnMaster> ehird, try it on some non-GNU app, some simple test app, like hello world with an exit(0); call at the end
18:20:18 * ehird introduces an off-by-one error into strlen, cackles
18:20:45 <AnMaster> ehird, basically, ls could well me doing some strange look afaik
18:20:52 <AnMaster> exit must return, gcc optimises for it
18:20:54 <ehird> AnMaster: exits normally (omitted the exit() since I know what it'd do)
18:20:57 <ehird> but what if I do _exit?
18:21:29 <ehird> _exit does nothing
18:21:37 <AnMaster> ehird, basically GCC assumes functions marked with the right attribute can't return, Thus being able to optimise better. This probably messes up your exit() there
18:21:40 <ehird> I guess start doesn't call it or whatever
18:21:45 <ehird> AnMaster: -O0? :-P
18:21:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue what happens at -O0 about it
18:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the GCC docs mentioning this is in the attribute docs, and iirc it is vague and says something like "GCC may perform additional optimisations based on the knowledge it doesn't return"
18:23:50 <AnMaster> iirc one effect of this, is that all code after it is considered dead.
18:25:45 <ehird> It occurs to me that Slackware is not especially conductive to Slack.
18:26:11 <ehird> SubGenius that begat Slackware.
18:26:35 <AnMaster> beget - make children; "Abraham begot Isaac"; "Men often father children but don't recognize them"
18:26:36 <AnMaster> wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
18:27:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I googled it... define:begat
18:28:31 <ehird> __attribute__((constructor)) static void init() {
18:28:56 <fizzie> You can say "begat" too; "beget, v. Past tense begot, arch. begat." (OED)
18:29:08 <ehird> I said begat originally.
18:29:26 <ehird> C needs a ++ but for =.
18:29:29 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, you're so archaic.
18:29:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, define:begat gave me definition of beget.
18:29:57 <ehird> if (!(inited =, 1)) return;
18:30:13 <ehird> if (!inited) {inited=1;return;};inited=1;/*dead code, can be removed*/
18:30:23 <ehird> Well, more likely ,=
18:30:36 <ehird> <ehird> C needs a ++ but for =.
18:30:50 <ehird> It's confusing but fun!
18:30:52 <ehird> Actually in this case,
18:30:57 <ehird> if (!(inited++)) return;
18:30:59 <ehird> but that's just evil
18:31:09 <ehird> It'd only work INT_MAX times or so
18:31:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I need context to figure it out
18:31:36 <AnMaster> ehird, and why would the constructor be called more than once?
18:31:53 <ehird> Dunno. Anagolf does it, so.
18:32:02 <ehird> LD_PRELOAD works in Mysterious Ways(TM).
18:32:18 * ehird hopes typeof(strlen) libc_strlen; works
18:32:40 <AnMaster> You may provide an optional integer priority to control the order in which constructor and destructor functions are run. A constructor with a smaller priority number runs before a constructor with a larger priority number; the opposite relationship holds for destructors.
18:33:47 <ehird> sandbox.c:14: error: lvalue required as left operand of assignment
18:33:47 <AnMaster> ehird, about _exit(), it is a builtin
18:33:54 <ehird> But typeof(strlen) libc_strlen; doesn't die.
18:34:15 <ehird> I guess it defines libc_strlen as a function, not a funptr.
18:34:25 <ehird> typeof(strlen) *libc_strlen; works splendidly.
18:34:47 <ehird> Beats writing out the type for one libc.
18:35:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I think going the kernel module path may be less messy
18:35:27 <ehird> http://pastie.org/623695.txt?key=lmfjxbqaw8t5txpf70z05a
18:35:30 <ehird> How's that messy at all?
18:35:30 <AnMaster> ehird, also strlen isn't called directly all the time. Depending on options it could call a special _chk version instead
18:35:35 <ehird> In fact, it looks positively simple to me.
18:35:52 <ehird> Anyway, I'd like results now and stuff, so this is the route for now.
18:36:12 <AnMaster> but for stuff like memcpu or sprintf or snprintf yes
18:36:27 <coppro> why all the messiness?
18:36:28 <ehird> Well, +1 and -1 don't change ls at all, which is odd.
18:36:32 <ehird> coppro: What's messy about the pastie?
18:36:40 <ehird> It's simple and direct.
18:36:43 <fizzie> GCC-compiled binaries would probably use the builtin strlen too?
18:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, try on ubuntu: nm -D /bin/* | grep chk | sort -n
18:37:02 <ehird> I'll hijack... something...
18:37:05 <coppro> ehird: why not just use strlen, though
18:37:09 <ehird> coppro: LD_PRELOAD, dude
18:37:20 <ehird> I'm fucking with preloads
18:37:29 <ehird> The dlsym stuff is how to access the libc strlen to use
18:37:35 <ehird> AnMaster: The gcc one, jesus christ shut up
18:37:48 <ehird> Not in this code path, evidently
18:37:48 <AnMaster> ehird, nm says it calls libc one though
18:38:12 <ehird> I'll make... something... reverse the string.
18:38:14 <fizzie> The earlier part makes you wonder what sort of bytes the libc_strlen symbol will end up pointing at after a "typeof(strlen) libc_strlen;" -- I guess it must be an uninitialized function.
18:38:25 <ehird> fizzie: typeof(strlen) *libc_strlen; now.
18:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird: ltrace /bin/ls 2>&1 | grep strlen
18:38:28 <ehird> So it's just a regular ol' funptr.
18:38:34 <fizzie> Yes, now, but earlier.
18:38:45 <ehird> fizzie: Well, it'd error out if you didn't define it later, obviously.
18:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it should affect stuff
18:39:17 <ehird> "return 1;" makes it break.
18:39:27 <ehird> I guess it's just allocating memory, and -1 doesn't run into a boundary.
18:39:33 <ehird> So it escapes just in time.
18:39:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it just uses it for figuring out width of columns
18:39:46 <ehird> size_t strlen(const char *s)
18:39:47 <ehird> return libc_strlen(s) * 2;
18:40:12 <ehird> Constant factors seem to work >_x
18:40:14 * ehird puts a printf in dar
18:40:31 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe because sometimes strlen is inlined, and sometimes not, and that messes up stuff when they disagree
18:40:47 <ehird> Hmm, there isn't a handy strrev() is there
18:41:03 <ehird> size_t strlen(const char *s)
18:41:03 <ehird> return libc_strlen(s);
18:41:16 <AnMaster> ehird, that should give the same length
18:41:21 <coppro> try size_t n = libc_strlen(s); return n ? n - 1 : n;
18:41:22 <ehird> Yes, but it modifies the pointer.
18:41:31 <ehird> So every time you strlen(), bam! Anagrammed underneath you.
18:41:36 <ehird> I flagrantly violate my const promise.
18:41:51 <ehird> Segfault. How *boring*.
18:41:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just going to point out that
18:41:57 <ehird> Oh, constant strings, clearly.
18:42:01 <ehird> What to do, what to do.
18:42:35 <fizzie> If you just want a quick-and-dirty fix, you could mprotect the read-onlyness away. :p
18:42:48 <fizzie> "On Linux it is always permissible to call mprotect() on any address in a process's address space."
18:42:48 <ehird> fizzie: In a constant string?
18:42:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, that depends. If it is on an mmaped page where you don
18:42:59 <AnMaster> don't* have write access to the underlying file
18:43:30 <AnMaster> EACCES The memory cannot be given the specified access. This can happen, for example, if you mmap(2) a file to which you have read-only access,
18:43:30 <AnMaster> then ask mprotect() to mark it PROT_WRITE.
18:43:40 <fizzie> That doesn't sound very likely to happen, though.
18:43:43 <ehird> ls: invalid argument `oatu' for `--color'
18:44:01 <coppro> you're truly evil ehird
18:44:17 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:44:20 <ehird> size_t strlen(const char *s)
18:44:20 <ehird> size_t length = libc_strlen(s);
18:44:20 <ehird> mprotect(s, length, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE);
18:44:57 <ehird> $ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so ls --color=toua
18:44:57 <ehird> Segmentation fault
18:45:00 <AnMaster> ehird, um, don't you need to round the page size?
18:45:02 <ehird> (after several tries)
18:45:11 -!- coppro has joined.
18:45:15 <ehird> Stupid things strlen()ing internal structures :P
18:45:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, you don't; but it will change on page-sized granularity.
18:45:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not surprised that things break when you do that sort of thing
18:46:06 <AnMaster> ehird, try doing something useful and allowed instead?
18:46:07 <ehird> $ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so cat
18:46:07 <ehird> cat: symbol lookup error: ./sandbox.so: undefined symbol: dlsym
18:46:07 <fizzie> Hrm, actually it does say that 'addr' should be page-aligned; it will still affect all pages that contain bytes in the [addr, addr+len-1] range.
18:46:08 <ehird> Well that's a new one.
18:46:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and do check http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Other-Builtins.html for list of functions that are sometimes built in optimised
18:47:04 <ehird> man: symbol lookup error: ./sandbox.so: undefined symbol: dlsym
18:47:06 <ehird> What is up with that.
18:47:29 <ehird> Wonder why ls does, if it works there.
18:47:57 <ehird> It still works with ls.
18:48:10 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe ls uses it anyway
18:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, my best guess is some other library pulls it in, maybe the libselinux one on ubuntu
18:50:12 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I can't find what it uses from libdl. Hm
18:50:46 <AnMaster> oh indeed, libselinux pulls it in
18:51:46 <ehird> size_t strftime(char *s, size_t max, const char *format, const struct tm *tm)
18:51:46 <ehird> strcpy(s, "Bork bork bork!");
18:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, issue, you don't check if s is long enough
18:52:15 <ehird> It probably is :-P
18:52:34 <coppro> so why are you trying to screw with library functions, ehird?
18:52:37 <fizzie> ehid, issue, you're writing "Bork bork bork" instead of the formatted time tm.
18:52:37 <ehird> $ LD_PRELOAD=./sandbox.so sh
18:52:38 <ehird> ork bork bork![GARBAGE]
18:52:43 <AnMaster> ehird, strncpy(s, "whatever", max);
18:52:46 <ehird> ork bork bork![MORE GARBAGE]
18:52:49 <ehird> 20 18:52:24 BST 2009
18:53:04 <ehird> strcpy writes no \0, does it? :P
18:53:20 <ehird> coppro: My all-encompassing full-system sandboxing solution to become Linux distro.
18:53:34 <ehird> <fizzie> ehid, issue, you're writing "Bork bork bork" instead of the formatted time tm.
18:53:36 <ehird> made me laugh btw.
18:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird, strncpy might not if buffer isn't large enough
18:54:03 <ehird> So it prints up to max
18:54:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see how this is actually getting you anywhere yet
18:54:38 <AnMaster> I mean, sure, now you figured out how
18:54:43 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:54:47 <AnMaster> but then, why not get started on the actual hard stuff
18:54:48 <ehird> ork bork bork! ork bork bork! 20 18:54:39 BST 2009
18:54:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Because this is amusing?
18:55:00 <ehird> I have to think about the logistics before coding that stuff.
18:55:01 <AnMaster> ehird, where does the last part come from?
18:55:07 <AnMaster> and what happened to the first b
18:55:10 <ehird> No idea. Maybe it formats its own date.
18:55:47 -!- coppro has joined.
18:56:55 <fizzie> I'm guessing it does all the numeric formats by itself, and uses strcpy for the strings; it should say something like "Sun Sep 20 .." there.
18:57:08 <fizzie> Er, strftime, not strcpy.
18:57:13 <fizzie> Well, it uses strcpy now!
18:57:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, doing it that way is pretty wtfy though
18:57:33 <ehird> Still, why the chop off thing?
18:57:48 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe it adds some guard thing first in the format and then removes it
18:57:49 <fizzie> I'm guessing they want date to support all those GNUisms even on systems where the library strftime doesn't.
18:58:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't justify not just using the system one on systems where it *does* exist
18:58:18 <ehird> Well, overriding strftime was boring.
18:58:41 <pikhq> Strftime? Stir-fry time?
18:59:01 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you want to run as normal user and still prevent accessing random files as that user unless the user accepted it, then you need to do something about system calls.
18:59:09 <AnMaster> alternatively do like that thing EgoBot uses
18:59:23 <AnMaster> with empty chroot and dynamically created UID
18:59:53 <ehird> Running under another user.
19:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, then you need a suid wrapper to let you change your UID
19:00:13 <ehird> Can you stop teaching me how to program? Kthx.
19:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, not doing that, just teaching you linuxism that you seem to be wondering about earlier today
19:00:46 <ehird> That was answered tho
19:00:52 <ehird> Gruh, compiz frozen again
19:01:27 <ehird> http://fixthis.com
19:01:33 <AnMaster> ehird, try metacity. System -> Preferences -> Apperence, last tab
19:01:57 <coppro> ehird: I thought you used some random tiling window manager
19:01:59 <ehird> Uh, firstly, I had this problem with Metacity too.
19:02:11 <ehird> Secondly, I can't even click windows..
19:02:17 <ehird> So I can't do that.
19:02:23 <ehird> coppro: I did, but then that installation was all bleh.
19:02:31 <ehird> That was for like a day, mind you.
19:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you reproduce that issue
19:02:59 <AnMaster> coppro, Ctrl-Alt-F2 under X iirc
19:03:19 <ehird> Opening appearance preferences unbroked it. Hi ho!
19:03:36 <ehird> Now it's broke again XD
19:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, so open that and change to damn metacity
19:03:51 <ehird> ooh, except I can't type in alt-f2 this time
19:04:01 <ehird> AnMaster: I like compiz kthx
19:04:16 <ehird> Oops, now I can't click control center icons.
19:05:25 <coppro> just run compiz --replace
19:05:26 <ehird> Compiz deactivated! Failure ever-present!
19:05:46 <Deewiant> "Failure ever-present" sounds like an awesome error message
19:06:21 <Deewiant> It's kind of like "the impossible happened" but in the other direction
19:07:22 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:07:23 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:07:38 -!- ehird has joined.
19:07:40 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:08:03 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:08:28 -!- ehird has joined.
19:08:44 <AnMaster> and did you see what I said last time?
19:08:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:09:12 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ehird: 7.54 second(s)
19:09:34 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:09:43 -!- Asztal has joined.
19:10:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, coppro: probability of ehird having broken something important?
19:11:24 <AnMaster> my guess would be closer to Deewiant's
19:11:45 <coppro> could be he's just running something which doesn't work well
19:11:51 <coppro> like Java applets do here :/
19:11:57 -!- ehird has joined.
19:12:03 <ehird> Rebooted, said "meh".
19:12:20 <coppro> they work fine for a while, then memory usage shoots up and I need to kill firefox
19:12:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> and did you see what I said last time?
19:12:21 <ehird> Just a weird-ass glitch.
19:12:21 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, anyway if you had same problem with metacity, why do you think it is related compiz and not something else in gnome or X?
19:12:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Stop answering that question. If Ianswer it it'll involve me being annoyed.
19:12:36 <AnMaster> coppro, I need to killall java
19:12:45 <ehird> I agree wrt killing all Java.
19:12:49 <AnMaster> when working with my uni's web thingy
19:12:52 <ehird> That is a very good idea.
19:13:06 <coppro> AnMaster: eh. Firefox dies anyway if I kill Java
19:14:35 <AnMaster> coppro, also that web thingy likes to pop up dialogs saying stuff like: "are you sure you want to run this java thingy, unable to check signature due to missing root <blah blah>".
19:14:50 <ehird> So, Linux todo to be happy: Nice IRC client integrating with Gnome and Ubuntu's whole messaging thing.
19:14:54 <AnMaster> I answer no, and it still works
19:14:59 <ehird> Linux todo to be really happy: Sandboxing. Package manager. Distro.
19:14:59 <AnMaster> as long as I kill java afterwards
19:15:12 <ehird> <ehird> I agree wrt killing all Java. ;; someone appreciate this
19:15:30 <AnMaster> ehird, saw it, didn't see anything to comment about it
19:16:20 <AnMaster> ehird, On slashdot it would possibly have been moded "insightful"
19:18:34 <AnMaster> from gcc docs. "[...] Note, This feature is currently sorried out for Windows targets trying to "
19:19:10 <AnMaster> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Function-Attributes.html (see "ms_abi/sysv_abi" section)
19:19:50 <AnMaster> coppro, possibly, but what are they trying to
19:20:38 <fizzie> Just trying in general.
19:20:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, err you mean: Just trying to in general
19:21:00 <ehird> No, they're trying to.
19:21:23 <ehird> But you must note that the feature is sorried out on Windows.
19:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes duh of course, why didn't I think of that, it's obvious!
19:23:05 <ehird> "Quarterly, I azure, an alien head affronts; II sable, a saltire gules of bacon; III sable, an envelope orangegules; IV azure, a look_of_disapproval at gaze; supported by narwhals combatant. Motto: "reddit", between an upvote gules and downvote azure in pale."
19:23:22 <ehird> (Note: ^ should probably be in #reddit but that channel sucks and everyone there will have seen it.)
19:24:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it could be a comment or the original thread starting or a user profile for all I knew
19:24:26 <ehird> The thread starters are just comments, essentially. Also, reddit is a link site, dammit.
19:25:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but I didn't know what to call the thing that is the link itself
19:28:11 <AnMaster> so: OP a) Original Post b) Or Poster
19:28:22 <AnMaster> the second one fits the acronym too after all
19:28:46 <AnMaster> (yes right I know what you meant, but...)
19:29:13 <ehird> gmail needs a "go to first unread message" shortcut
19:29:36 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> so: OP a) Original Post b) Or Poster ;; someone appreciate this
19:42:35 <ehird> what's the apt-cache command to list files in a pkg?
19:43:40 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me if you find out
19:44:12 <fizzie> If you want the files of an installed package, that's "dpkg-query -L foo"; I'm not sure if the apt cache contains the file lists of random packages.
19:44:59 <ehird> and what's the command to find which package has a file :D
19:45:12 <fizzie> "dpkg-query -S file" as long as file is installed.
19:45:30 <ehird> ...and what's the file ><
19:45:43 <fizzie> The path name you're looking for.
19:45:49 <ehird> I know, I just don't know what it is :D
19:46:11 <fizzie> Well, I can't really help you there, I have no clue what you're looking for.
19:46:41 <ehird> Basically, I'm trying to find the binary of the application browser that comes up when clicking More Applications in SUSE's "SLAB" Gnome menu.
19:46:44 <fizzie> Is it... /usr/share/libthai/thbrk.tri?
19:46:48 <ehird> (Also available for other distros.)
19:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, apt-file can find in non-installed apps iirc
19:47:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Who can say?
19:47:27 <ehird> <ehird> (Also available for other distros.)
19:47:34 <ehird> AnMaster pro reader 09.
19:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it is pro reader 1x, they couldn't get the paper work done in time
19:50:16 <fizzie> The gnome-main-menu package has something called "application-browser", but it might be different.
19:50:33 <ehird> Ain't no binary here.
19:51:00 <fizzie> If it's the same thing, it puts the binary into /usr/lib/gnome-main-menu/application-browser possibly.
19:51:15 <fizzie> Don't know, don't have installed that.
19:51:24 <ehird> Don't have installed that!
19:55:52 <fizzie> Finnish has a reasonably flexible word order; "en ole asentanut sitä" would I guess be the standard form, but "en ole sitä asentanut" and "sitä en ole asentanut" and "asentanut en sitä ole" all don't sound *so* out-of-place, and have unambiguously the same meaning, albeit with a bit different emphasis.
19:55:55 * ehird attempts to think of a less crappy way to authorise files than hooking into the gtk and qt file choosers to allow any file selected through them
19:55:58 <ehird> because that totally breaks cli apps
19:56:55 <AnMaster> ehird, use an ncurses GUI. But that also break cli apps
19:57:11 <AnMaster> and hm. most other things I can think of break cli apps
19:57:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what about using a server process that could ask the user in whatever way the user preferred?
19:57:50 <AnMaster> that would be sort of GUI/CLI/whatever server
19:58:18 <ehird> the fact is that awesome-unzipper foo.zip -> ALLOW FILE HURR? ALLOW FILE DURR? ALLOW FILE I AM UBUNTU'S VISTA UAC AND MAY I SUCK YOUR COCK? is basically unacceptable
19:58:29 <ehird> not least for the unpleasant homoerotic undertones. well. overtones.
19:58:35 <ehird> so i need to be clever about this
19:58:52 <ehird> I'm thinking maybe a staging area for a home directory, then it all gets put in one directory if it isn't already
19:58:58 <ehird> how to name it is the question, and besides that might still suck
19:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, heuristics will only take you so far
19:59:13 <ehird> but if we put it in a staging area and disallow file conflicts, then that would stop it shitting over the rest of home
19:59:21 <ehird> even if we don't directory it up
19:59:35 <AnMaster> ehird, that will work for unzipper, but what about editor?
19:59:38 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not heuristics so much as predefined things for default applications
19:59:51 <ehird> Also, editors are passed that file by CLI or file chooser, so they get it
20:00:01 <ehird> i.e., if a program can access a file, and saves to it, they can overwrite it
20:00:05 <ehird> (with backup, prolly)
20:01:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what about opening inside an app like emacs that uses the mode line + tab complete?
20:01:13 <AnMaster> that won't work for file chooser
20:01:19 <ehird> So we patch emacs.
20:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, so apps won't run out of box?
20:01:31 <ehird> It beats forcing a total rewrite of every application, i.e. a proper system for this.
20:01:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Sure they will, they'll just nag you every time you try and use files.
20:02:04 <ehird> Of course, this is non-ideal; so naturally I'm trying to think of better ways to make this Work.
20:02:39 <ehird> IBM or HP or someone had a sandboxing system like this for Windows. It was easier since Windows has pretty much one file picker.
20:02:54 <ehird> I don't recall the name. I think Sgeo mentioned it first.
20:03:24 * coppro is confused as to ehird's goal
20:04:19 <ehird> Run untrusted applications and not worry! It's like a MAGICAL CONDOM for your LINUX... um... genitals? Bad analogy. It's like a MAGICAL SANDBOXING CAPABILITY-BASED SECURITY SYSTEM for your LINUX OPERATING SYSTEM.
20:04:31 <ehird> Be guarded against flawed applications! ...To a degree!
20:04:49 <ehird> Fits in nicely with the per-user, multi-version, separated-namespace, purely-functional package manager!
20:05:01 <ehird> Also, untrusted applications = all applications.
20:05:05 <ehird> Every user process runs under this thing.
20:05:26 <ehird> So, uh, overhead is a bit bad.
20:06:09 <AnMaster> I remember some app to do basically that for GUI apps. Worked with firefox iirc
20:06:11 -!- Pthing has joined.
20:07:00 <ehird> I think SELinux does a sort of similar thing with the capabilities, and solves the application problem by writing gigantic lists of rules for every app.
20:07:10 <ehird> But mine is like 10x less sucky, so.
20:07:16 <AnMaster> coppro, that is just a API for it
20:07:22 <AnMaster> ehird, and it wasn't selinux I meant
20:07:37 <ehird> AppArmor requires patching to apps, doesn't it?
20:07:42 <ehird> Anyway, I don't just want this to be for apps.
20:07:46 <ehird> sed, awk, ls, cat, all run under it.
20:07:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no, it hooks into same place as selinux
20:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, all the widely used ones are kernel based. I think LD_PRELOAD is just the wrong way to go
20:08:31 <ehird> FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME
20:08:34 <AnMaster> well, not sure about the ask user gui thing
20:08:37 <ehird> I AM NOT USING LD_PRELOAD AS A LONG TERM - FUCKING - SOLUTION
20:08:40 <ehird> I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE
20:08:43 <ehird> I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE MULTIPLE TIMES
20:08:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't see what you gain then...
20:08:51 <ehird> I AM DOING IT FOR EASY DEVELOPMENT AND EXPLORATION IN THE INITIAL STAGES ON THIS UBUNTU BOX
20:09:00 <ehird> ERGO, SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT LD_PRELOAD!
20:09:06 <AnMaster> i mean, you would have to rewrite it in a completely different way in the kernel
20:09:11 <coppro> also, ehird, your solution being better requires it to exist
20:09:31 <ehird> coppro: the seconds I spend replying to AnMaster being stupid are seconds I don't spend making it exist in the future.
20:09:57 <ehird> but the fact is that no system does anything near what my aim is, and if it does it almost certainly can't be applied in the way I'd like to
20:10:00 <AnMaster> ehird, now, I'm not. I'm just saying that doing it in kernel and doing it in userspace means completely different implementations
20:11:01 <AnMaster> ehird, so I'm suggesting that doing it with LD_PRELOAD will be wasted effort since you won't be able to reuse much of it in kernel later.
20:11:40 <ehird> I am not writing the full system with LD_PRELOAD. Now if you would kindly do what I asked and shut. the. fuck. up. about. LD_PRELOAD. that would be appreciated, as it's constituted about half your lines about this project for hours.
20:12:13 <AnMaster> that isn't true, I helped you with it above...
20:13:14 <ehird> Yes, because half = all.
20:13:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:13:34 <AnMaster> ehird, much more than half was help
20:13:49 <ehird> One day, AnMaster will understand hyperbole.*
20:16:44 <ehird> Go look up "hyperbole".
20:17:03 <AnMaster> that joke was so wasted on you
20:18:09 <AnMaster> ** Only in the context of ehird shutting up.
20:18:40 <ehird> You know, there's a command for making me stfu in general.
20:18:53 <coppro> yes, but you sometimes have useful things to say
20:19:00 <coppro> btw, jokes lost on ehird are awesome
20:19:16 <AnMaster> coppro, well in general the jokes ehird doesn't understand are the best
20:19:37 <ehird> have fun with your hur hur ehird is so stupid circlejerk, guys
20:19:38 -!- ehird has left (?).
20:20:05 <AnMaster> oh my, why isn't ais523 here now. That would have been a lot more fun
20:24:57 <AnMaster> coppro, somehow I guess ehird sees himself as some sort of "best in humour", and thus gets very irritated when he don't get a joke. Especially when I said it (who he considers almost entirely lacking humour).</psychoanalysis or something>
20:25:20 <coppro> AnMaster: the best was when I was making jokes about his immaturity
20:25:51 <coppro> he couldn't understand why my jokes about him being young were funny, because he's too young
20:26:05 <AnMaster> coppro, how long ago was that?
20:27:23 <coppro> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.09 <-- starts around "double entendre"
20:27:50 <AnMaster> argh, has google removed the "view as html" option?
20:28:05 <AnMaster> coppro, oh that recently? Thought it would be more like 2-3 years ago
20:28:35 <coppro> nah, e's stilll pretty young
20:29:07 * AnMaster is searching for the actual double entendre
20:29:43 <AnMaster> coppro, was it you who said the double entendre?
20:30:11 <coppro> AnMaster: no, bsmntbombdood_ did, about 10 lines up
20:30:24 <AnMaster> coppro, ah that explains it, I was looking at your lines only
20:31:22 <AnMaster> coppro, and yes that is pretty clear. In fact it seems more like a "single entendre" (I can only see the dirty meaning to tell the truth)
20:32:17 -!- ehird has joined.
20:32:32 <ehird> I must quit my bad habit of logreading, but please do note, later down:
20:32:33 <ehird> 21:49:17 <bsmntbombdood_> oh snap
20:32:33 <ehird> 21:49:21 <bsmntbombdood_> i didn't even notice that
20:32:50 <ehird> So if you're claiming something to do with age on the part of me, you must also claim it on the person who originally said the damn thing.
20:33:04 <ehird> FWIW, yes of course I got it as soon as I bothered to look at it again.
20:33:11 <AnMaster> ehird, um no? It is quite different if the speaker him/herself doesn't notice it
20:33:39 <ehird> AnMaster: amusing then that if you miss a double entrende and I point it out you say I have a dirty mind, a bit of a double-standard there
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:03 * coppro will be back in 2 or 3 years
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:27 <ehird> coppro: umm... bye?
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:34 <ehird> that's a rather anticlimatic exit
20:33:46 <AnMaster> 21:57:50 <coppro> I was making a joke. Lost on you, apparently.
20:33:55 <ehird> but whatever, continue your "lol he's so young and naive and did I mention candyfloss" antics
20:34:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed that *I* didn't have a dirty mind :P
20:34:24 <ehird> I'm sure it must be interesting having nothing better to do and responding to this knowledge with a discussion about how one insignificant person you only know over IRC is young/stupid/whatever
20:34:28 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit).
20:35:07 <AnMaster> coppro, hm how old are you btw? 25 or so is my guess
20:39:08 <AnMaster> hm better than what I hoped for, still bad
21:12:35 <FireFly> Though I believe I read it'll rain here tomorrow and tuesday
21:13:33 <AnMaster> FireFly, different cities will have different weather very often :P
21:14:20 <AnMaster> FireFly, btw, funny label on box (unable to translate to English due to not knowing what the hell it is called in English):
21:14:49 <AnMaster> Desinficerande våtservetter \n Med desinfektionsmedel
21:26:19 <Deewiant> Disinfecting wet serviette \n with disinfectant
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21:26:45 <AnMaster> not sure if that is what they are called in English
21:26:58 <Deewiant> It isn't, that's just the literal translation :-P
21:27:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't be bothered to look it up.
21:28:06 <AnMaster> Plus everyone active atm seems to be able to understand Swedish more or less
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22:45:51 <ais523> latest news from proggit: someone wrote a command-line application for ordering pizza
22:49:40 <Ilari> Ugh... n: 20000000 avg: 8103009.4666202 max spike: 8.8959992639417e+14 ... That seems just plain too ill-behaved to converge (the expectation of distribution is zero)... :-)
22:50:33 <Ilari> 20M samples and the estimate of expectation isn't even near correct...
22:51:24 <Ilari> Trying to estimate moments of badly-behaved distributions...
22:51:53 <Ilari> (starting from trying to estimate what's the expectation value is).
22:53:38 <Ilari> And that "max spike" is biggest absolute value seen. As can be seen, peak to average ratio is huge (~10^8).
22:54:34 <ais523> that's badly behaved, all right
22:54:42 <ais523> is it Turing-complete?
22:54:55 <ais523> (there's probably some way to do computation with a distribution)
22:54:57 <Ilari> Distribution: p(x) = k / (abs(x)+1)^1.5 (k is chosen to scale it properly for distribution).
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22:55:59 <Ilari> Odd moments are zero. Even moments (except the zeroth) are infinite.
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23:00:21 <Ilari> Heh... Some researchers wired a dead salmon into fMRI machine... :-)
23:02:04 <coppro> to show the ease of false positives
23:02:09 <ais523> Cerise: hi, I don't recognise you; what brings you here?
23:04:48 <Ilari> Cerise: You are developing some über-batshit-crazy to the nth power programming language and need some advice? :->
23:05:07 <ais523> n is currently about 6
23:08:06 <ais523> clearly I've been slacking
23:11:45 <ais523> sorry #esoteric, I've been slacking for weeks on the esolang side of things
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23:19:45 <oerjan> <ehird> I AM NOT USING LD_PRELOAD AS A LONG TERM - FUCKING - SOLUTION <-- that's what they all say
23:20:42 <fizzie> oerjan: They say that, yes, but then everyone just ends up keeping the LD_PRELOAD in place when having sex anyway.
23:21:19 <Ilari> Cerise: And esoteric language doesn't have to be über-batshit-insane to 6.41th power... Just being insane (batshit-insane is even better) is enough. :->
23:22:01 <oerjan> elegance also counts, says i
23:22:15 <ais523> you can't be truly elegant without being slightly insane, though
23:22:21 <ais523> so it fits this channel pretty well
23:23:32 <oerjan> on the other hand if your language heaps feature upon feature rather than being elegant, _then_ it needs to be über-batshit-insane or else it ends up with negative points
23:23:50 <Ilari> Of course, Rube-Goldberg-style Turing Completeness also would be funky.
23:24:53 <Ilari> That is, lots of features that don't fit well together, and manage as combination just barely reach TC.
23:25:26 <oerjan> true, but with a lot of features it is hard to ensure all of them are really needed for TC
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23:30:54 <Ilari> Yeah, that's why its so difficult to design them.
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00:09:34 <ais523> sometimes I think about Underload instruction minimisation
00:09:39 <ais523> in much the same way as BF instruction minimisation
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00:11:23 <oerjan> : cannot be dropped, nor can * or ^
00:12:15 <oerjan> well, as far as being expressed by the others is concerned, at least
00:13:01 <oerjan> ! seems unlikely. maybe you could manage to sweep things down instead...
00:13:27 <oerjan> i don't think any of them are redundant
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00:18:25 <ehird> oerjan: () is redundant
00:18:51 <ehird> & (for want of a better name) is simpler
00:19:12 <oerjan> you mean one taking only one character?
00:19:14 <ehird> all it does is: pushes the last command executed to the stack, quoted
00:19:17 <ehird> oerjan: no, simpler
00:19:20 <ehird> it's a regular command
00:19:27 <ehird> you just have one piece of global state that you assign with one line
00:19:42 <ehird> ais523 proved that this can do everything () can
00:20:09 <oerjan> well as long as you don't want to print non-command characters
00:20:26 <ehird> but let's remove output, it makes things easier to minimize; this is tarpitting after all
00:21:05 <ehird> & push last command executed, quoted
00:21:24 <oerjan> i think you might get rid of ! with some global rewriting in cps style, or something
00:21:26 <ehird> & is the most complex, but simpler than () in both implementation and syntax
00:21:29 <ehird> and about equal in semantics
00:21:36 <ehird> possibly simpler as you can leave non-command characters undefined
00:21:51 <ehird> hmm, let's make & , instead
00:21:56 <ehird> since it's so common, it might as well drop out
00:22:02 <ehird> or ', which is a quote
00:22:33 <ehird> so to push each command:
00:22:48 <ehird> dip being the hard part
00:22:55 <ehird> what's dip in underload again?
00:23:12 <ehird> oerjan: basically, in your interpreter loop, after the switch for the command, do lastcmd=thischar;
00:23:16 <ehird> so the answer is '
00:23:23 <ehird> if you do a fancy loop, you get the last thing executed there
00:23:39 <ehird> it's a variable declaration, one unconditional assignment and one trivial extra command
00:24:23 <ehird> oerjan: ok, first one done
00:24:30 <ehird> to push ~, ()()~'()!':*~a*^
00:24:47 <ehird> oerjan: there was one extra thing
00:24:51 <ehird> the stack starts out with () on it
00:25:00 <ehird> a better alternative is to say that the stack has an infinite number of ()s on the bottom
00:25:13 <ehird> that also handles things like the standalone program :
00:25:31 <ehird> ok then, to push ~, assuming initial stack:
00:26:10 <ehird> oerjan: of course you have to carry the () around with you, but iirc ais provided direct translations of every non-output instruction
00:26:16 <ehird> as in, simple text replacement
00:27:03 <ehird> happily, everything is now foo' on an empty stack which Just Works, even ''
00:27:15 <ehird> well, unless you need something before to be defined, which is reasonable
00:27:38 <ehird> anyway, I have a hunch that ! and * can be combined
00:28:23 <ehird> if we could rewrite dip without ~, we'd need no swap</captain obvs>
00:28:29 <oerjan> something that takes the top 3 on stack
00:28:38 <ehird> top 3 sounds inelegant
00:28:40 <oerjan> and combines two and drops one
00:28:56 <ehird> i was thinking more like,
00:29:24 <ehird> then you need a put-back instruction
00:29:33 <ehird> (foo)(bar)% = ((foo))(bar)^
00:29:39 <ehird> (foo)(bar)% = ((foo))bar
00:29:50 <ehird> this is how to drop
00:30:00 <ehird> you need to drop the extraneous ((foo)) after
00:30:17 <ehird> oerjan: is a required?
00:30:58 <ehird> (also adds unbalanced output!)
00:32:09 <ehird> but really, apart from ', which i think is a simplification, and dropping S, this is hard
00:33:24 <ehird> oerjan: maybe ^ could be simplified if we... holy fuck
00:33:30 <ehird> unify the data stack and the code.
00:33:36 * ehird 's mind, verily, blows
00:33:51 <ehird> that way we could remove ^.
00:34:01 <ehird> that is, if it's actually possible to
00:34:04 <oerjan> well to some degree ^ does nothing but move the top element of data to code
00:34:14 <ehird> we operate on code
00:34:41 <ehird> oerjan: heh, then ^ becomes the inverse of a
00:35:05 <ehird> (foo), stack/code is (separated by <>): (foo)
00:35:06 <oerjan> it already is, one way
00:35:16 <ehird> ^, stack/code is (separated by <>): foo<>^
00:35:28 <ehird> I guess ^ shouldn't be there
00:35:30 <ehird> ^, stack/code is (separated by <>): foo
00:36:16 <ehird> ((foo)^), stk/cd (sep <>): ((foo)^)<>^
00:36:41 <ehird> ^, stk/cd (sep <>): (foo)<>^
00:36:46 <ehird> (foo), stk/cd (sep <>): (foo)<>^
00:36:52 <ehird> ^, stk/cd (sep <>): foo
00:36:58 <ehird> oerjan: i think this could actually work
00:38:17 <ehird> oerjan: why? before we had two stacks, code and data
00:38:26 <ehird> this is simply removing a concept and that's it
00:38:31 <ehird> and it's wonderfully metacircular
00:39:26 <ehird> hey, i'm just minimizin' here
00:40:06 <oerjan> i'm not hatin', just lazyin'
00:40:44 <ehird> i'll try and run the traditional loop
00:41:07 <ehird> (:^), stk/cd (sep <>): (:^)<>:<>^
00:41:22 <ehird> we want to be executing the top item at all times
00:41:47 <ehird> initial stk/cd ^<>:<>(:^)
00:42:03 <ehird> the problem is avoiding an infinite loop there
00:42:18 <ehird> oerjan: (foo)'s semantics, I believe, are "move this (foo) down one in the stack"
00:42:34 <ehird> (foo)bar is bar<>(foo), and when executed it becomes (foo)<>bar
00:42:38 <ehird> and bar operates on the (foo) below it
00:43:17 <oerjan> you're aware that (:^):^ _is_ an infinite loop? ;)
00:44:10 <ehird> i just realised how (foo) should work
00:44:24 <ehird> initial stk/cd ^<>:<>(:^)
00:44:42 <ehird> (:^), new stk/cd: ^<>(:^)<>:
00:44:58 <ehird> :, new stk/cd: ^<>(:^)<>(:^)
00:45:09 <ehird> oerjan: i think every command has to move stuff out of the way, which is irritating
00:45:24 <ehird> i think the semantics are save second-top from us at beginning, pop it off; push it to top after we've done our stuff
00:47:21 <oerjan> logically the stack is equivalent to its elements being a'd and prepended to the code
00:48:19 <oerjan> and then you can just skip everything of (...) form to find the real next command
00:49:54 <oerjan> of course this messes with getting rid of ()
00:52:36 <ehird> I wonder if * shouldn't be what ~* is now
00:52:50 <ehird> also, skipping like that sucks; code should be executed from the top, as-is imo
00:53:25 <ehird> anyway, ~* seems damn common
00:53:33 <oerjan> however even with ~* as primitive i'm not sure you can do ~
00:53:33 <ehird> admittedly * has more elegance
00:54:28 <oerjan> because you still have no way to apply a to the bottom one before combining, if you don't have ~
00:55:23 <oerjan> face it, underload is _hard_ to improve
00:55:32 <oerjan> especially on elegance
00:55:36 <ehird> it is incredibly elegant.
00:55:56 <ehird> I wonder if we could reduce it to () + one command
00:56:07 <ehird> like a mammoth inelegant command looking at 9485345 values on the stack
00:56:47 <ehird> ~ and ! can easily be combined
00:56:52 <ehird> discard first element, swap rest
00:56:57 <ehird> then ! is ()combine
00:57:02 <ehird> swap rest two that is
00:57:16 <ehird> discard first element, concatenate second two, swap last two
00:57:20 <oerjan> um you mean ~ is ()combine
00:57:39 <ehird> ! is ()~()~combine
00:57:52 <ehird> then you have to pop afterwards :D
00:58:16 <ehird> oerjan: can we squeeze enclose second element in there?
00:58:58 <oerjan> the problem is when you want the combination to be two unenclosed things appended
00:59:32 <ehird> discard 1, enclose 2, cat 3&4, swap 5&6
01:00:10 <ehird> the question is how do you extract the commands from that...
01:00:23 <ehird> anyway with that it'd just be that+()+^+S
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01:00:39 <ehird> discard 1, enclose 2, output 3, cat 4&5, swap 6&7
01:00:47 <ehird> (output also discards obvs)
01:00:58 <ehird> i'm not sure you can combine ^ into it
01:01:35 <ehird> oerjan: erm, 1 = TOS
01:01:40 <ehird> is that confusing?
01:02:04 <oerjan> i just shifted it so i didn't have to repeat the next
01:02:39 <ehird> also, cat 4&5 after output refer to elements after the output ofc
01:02:46 <ehird> i.e., when we drop we stitll use the same numbering
01:03:02 <ehird> run 0, discard 1, enclose 2, output 3, cat 4&5, swap 6&7
01:03:15 <ehird> first person to extract all the commands from that wins a cookie
01:03:33 <ehird> it is called either # or @, the most ... full ASCII characters.
01:06:14 <oerjan> hm... you're forgetting anything to do with :
01:06:53 <ehird> not worth thinking about until i know those commands can be extracted...
01:07:26 <oerjan> i expect there needs to be some tinkering about with the order of things to ensure you can extract
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03:09:25 <Warrigal> Should I just subtract two from my age whenever I want to get his?
03:09:39 <Warrigal> Or perhaps I can say he's my little brother's age.
03:11:25 <oerjan> his birthday was a month or two ago iirc
03:13:13 <oerjan> i would hazard a guess that you can indeed subtract a rather accurate constant, unless space travel picks up considerably
03:47:33 <Warrigal> So, a bit younger than my little brother.
03:47:50 <Warrigal> Dear little brother: Please overachieve. Love, Warrigal.
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07:54:36 <fizzie> Sometimes the interweb speeds here at work make me a bit envious; I just fetched a 695 MiB Ubuntu image at an average speed of 28.1 MiB/s; that's about 236 Mbps. At home it's something like a fifteenth of that, and even that to one direction only.
07:56:45 <Deewiant> A fifteenth of that is still relatively fast
07:57:13 <fizzie> Yes, but a puny trickle compared to the datavalanche here.
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14:50:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, "datavalanche" ← very nice word
14:51:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how long did it take?
14:51:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, also, that would be gbit ethernet at work plus a very good uplink
14:52:04 <fizzie> I don't have the wget visible any more, but based on those numbers something like 25 seconds.
14:52:23 <AnMaster> lets assume you got theoretical max for calculating that... It means 28.1 MB/s is 224.4 Mbit/s ?
14:52:38 <AnMaster> which means quite an awesome fiber connection I bet
14:52:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is that you work!
14:52:48 <AnMaster> I want to work there too certainly
14:52:50 <fizzie> 28.1 MiB/s, so 236 Mbit/s.
14:53:20 <AnMaster> 28.1*8 == 224.8 says my calculator
14:53:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I always use base 1024 for MB and Mbit
14:53:38 <AnMaster> so I maintain that what I said above was correct
14:53:55 <fizzie> Telecomms people pretty much only use the non-binary mega in Mbps figures.
14:54:20 <fizzie> Anyway, it's still the same university.
14:54:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway you probably got a bit less than theoretical max. (other users, network overhead, latency + tcp having to wait for confirmation and so on...) So maybe 250 Mbit/s?
14:55:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, what mirror was it btw?
14:56:02 <AnMaster> alternative explanation: University happens to host a mirror and you got a quite mediocre speed in those conditions
14:56:02 <fizzie> It was nic.funet.fi (well, fi.archive.ubuntu.com, but that's the same thing), so it's sort-of part of the same network, if you count the whole Funet -- http://www.csc.fi/english/institutions/funet -- as a one network.
14:56:17 <fizzie> It's not local to our university, but not too far away.
14:56:49 <fizzie> http://pastebin.com/m7a43072e -- not too many hops.
14:56:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't that give higher latency to the rest of the internet, I mean you have to pass through some central router from this network I guess
14:57:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah that explains a bit of it
14:58:10 <fizzie> Probably, yes. Though it should be pretty fast to other nordunet university networks, there's a 10-gigabit uplink that way.
14:58:52 <Deewiant> FUNET is a member of NORDUnet.
14:59:26 <Deewiant> FUNET, SUNET, the Norway/Denmark equivalents, maybe something else
14:59:29 <fizzie> "Nordic countries"; I'm looking for the explicit list.
14:59:41 <Deewiant> Wikipedia has it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORDUnet
15:00:12 <AnMaster> ah SUNET. But I don't remember my tracepath to uni (for some reason I can't even tracepath/traceroute a single hop away from UNI) went like tele2 -> telia for one or two jumps -> sunet
15:00:20 <fizzie> "Alcatel-Lucent and IPNETT has completed the 40 Gbit/s upgrade of the first link of NORDUnet's optical and IP transport network, which provides the Nordic infrastructure for research and education. Preparing the move to 100 Gbit/s, this network upgrade will further support new application enablement for universities and scientists in the Nordics and strengthen international collaborative environment." That sounds pretty fast.
15:00:36 <AnMaster> though today it seems to go straight from tele2 to sunet
15:00:43 <fizzie> Also buzzwordy. "Enablement", especially.
15:00:50 <fizzie> I feel very enablementy today.
15:01:06 <Deewiant> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/FUNET_backbone.svg
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15:03:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, those colours doesn't quite match the text...
15:03:22 <fizzie> 2009-09-21 17:03:12 (27.2 MB/s) - `tmp.exe' saved [108279664/108279664]
15:03:53 <AnMaster> the stuff going to denmark is violet kind of thing, and it says 20 gbit/s, but in the legend that colour is listed as 1 gbit/s or 622 mbit/s
15:04:11 <fizzie> That tmp.exe was a hundred-megabyte DirectX thing from Microsoft's download system; that should be further away, but still 27.2 MiB/s.
15:04:25 <Deewiant> It's a lighter purple, and as you say it says it's 20 Gbit/s so it's not messed up anyway
15:04:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lighter? I blame bad laptop^Wnotebook screen then
15:04:52 <AnMaster> even at other angles there is no difference
15:04:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Went through Sweden, it seems.
15:05:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, well yes, it is so our FRA can log you :P
15:06:54 <fizzie> I think there was some talk years ago about Sonera relocating mail servers of Finnish customers away from Sweden because of that.
15:06:54 <fizzie> http://www.idg.se/2.1085/1.153711
15:06:54 <fizzie> Okay, a year and a bit ago.
15:08:12 <fizzie> According to FUNET_backbone.svg, the Internet is in Denmark.
15:08:26 * AnMaster laughs as a file about MSDNAA opens in open office
15:08:41 <AnMaster> oh and every other file at uni so far has been *.pdf not *.doc
15:10:23 <AnMaster> I'm trying to find the terms and conditions for it, but can't
15:10:53 <fizzie> Our "machine learning: basic principles" course assistant complained (at lunch) that people have been submitting just about everything, even though the instructions clearly say "single PDF file containing solutions to all questions"; there have been zipped up folders of separate files, Word documents, postscript files, postscript files renamed to .pdf, and even one PDF file named ".pdf" which was quite a clever trick, what with not showing up in ls listings.
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15:13:39 <fizzie> There's a fancy Funet status graph at http://www.csc.fi/funet/status/tools/wm
15:15:44 <fizzie> Based on those line widths (although they are a bit unclear) it looks as if nowadays there are 10G uplinks from both Espoo and Helsinki to NORDUnet, and the link between those two is 10G too.
15:20:13 <AnMaster> "postscript files renamed to .pdf" <-- wonderful
15:20:43 <fizzie> Deewiant: The csc one, I think.
15:21:02 <fizzie> There's a similar graph of the NORDUnet backbone at http://stats.nordu.net/stat-q/load-map/ndn-map,,traffic,peak if you like looking at the rainbow-like colours.
15:21:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does the text in the pic mean
15:21:34 <AnMaster> hm and the colours are for percentages of what?
15:22:14 <fizzie> Percentages of maximum capacity for peak use during a day, or something like that.
15:23:11 <fizzie> "* = rented traffic capacity" and "other connections owned [by FUNET]: DWDM/CWDM/black fiber" are those labels in the lower-left corner.
15:24:19 <fizzie> Sorry, apparently "dark fiber" is the proper English term.
15:24:31 <AnMaster> hm can't see anywhere that it states you aren't allowed to use linux + wine + MSDNAA apps or such
15:24:33 <fizzie> "black" would've been the literal translation, though.
15:25:42 <fizzie> As long as you use it for study-related purposes; I think there was some sort of general condition for that.
15:26:25 <AnMaster> "Windows client operating systems obtained as part of the Developer AA program may not be used only as a terminal for accessing a UNIX telnet server"
15:27:26 <AnMaster> "The underlying Microsoft Windows desktop operating system may only be installed on new or replacement PCs acquired without an operating system for exclusive use by students or faculty enrolled in or employed by the member Department or organization; it is not transferable and must be removed if the PC is transferred."
15:27:52 <fizzie> Hmn. Well, I can't quite remember what terms there might've been. I just seem to recall something vague about the "only related to studies" thing.
15:30:02 <AnMaster> ok it says to activate I have to send a mail from my student mail to a specific internal address. Says nothing about subject or such.
15:30:26 <AnMaster> I'm going to ask about terms and conditions in the mail though. If it is auto-processed, it isn't my fault.
15:30:28 <fizzie> It wasn't called "developer AA" back then anyway, they might've rewritten parts of the terms.
15:31:08 <fizzie> I remember this one: "You may not use the software: -- to develop and maintain your own administrative or IT systems."
15:31:19 <fizzie> It's so awfully vague.
15:31:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are different variants, one that basically seems to be for arts students too
15:32:39 <fizzie> There's that virtualization thing explicitly, though: "You may also install such products in virtual machine environments so long as these virtual machines are (a) used according to these terms, and (b) run on machines owned or leased by you and/or students."
15:34:35 <fizzie> I guess the vagueness in "You may not use the software -- to develop and maintain your own administrative or IT systems" comes from the fact that I instinctively read that 'you' as, you know, myself, when in fact the "you" here is the university department.
15:38:11 <fizzie> (Gone for a while now.)
15:42:18 <AnMaster> well, for now I sent a mail to the IT support asking about what specific edition of the MSDNAA program is used here
15:44:01 <AnMaster> when apt-get update prints "Ign" or "Hit", what do those mean
15:44:23 <Deewiant> The first is probably "Ignore"
15:44:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but what do they mean in this context
15:45:11 <AnMaster> can't find anything in man page
15:45:27 <AnMaster> which updates the list of packages in the repos
15:46:08 <Deewiant> So when does it print that stuff then?
15:46:29 <AnMaster> Ign http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty-security/universe Packages
15:46:29 <AnMaster> Ign http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty-security/multiverse Packages
15:46:29 <AnMaster> Hit http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty/main Packages
15:46:29 <AnMaster> Hit http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty/restricted Packages
15:46:49 <AnMaster> those extra whitespaces at end, odd copy didn't strip that
15:48:05 <Deewiant> Does it print anything other than those?
15:49:00 <Deewiant> I mean, does it ever print anything other than Ign or Hit when you do an update
15:49:22 <AnMaster> when there is some change it prints also something like: Fetched 28.9kB in 3s (8912B/s)
15:49:28 <AnMaster> just before the "Reading package lists..."
15:49:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it prints a total of 91 Ign/Hit lines
15:50:04 <AnMaster> oh yes in case of new stuff it also prints:
15:50:06 <Deewiant> Then I guess Hit is just that it checked that package list
15:50:07 <AnMaster> Get:4 http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty-security Release [14.2kB]
15:50:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so the hit line is still there
15:50:24 <Deewiant> Hit = checked package list, no changes
15:50:40 <Deewiant> Ign = didn't check package list
15:50:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well those extra repos it ignores are listed as "I want these"
15:51:45 <Deewiant> If you run apt-get update again, do you get all Ign?
15:52:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, full output from http://pastebin.ca/1574011 from updating in a 32-bit chroot I use for cross compiling
15:52:14 <Deewiant> In that case Hit could've meant that something changed upstream but not necessarily anything interesting to you
15:52:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, see there too, since nothing relevant changed, or apt-get upgrade would have said so
15:52:44 <AnMaster> like, it would have upgraded the packages
15:52:52 <AnMaster> also why would it say hit just half a minute later again
15:53:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Googling suggests that Ign may mean a 404
15:53:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok that is strange, I tried google too
15:54:50 <AnMaster> Ign http://ddebs.ubuntu.com jaunty-updates/universe Packages
15:55:05 <AnMaster> http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/dists/jaunty-updates/universe/binary-i386/ exists and contains Packages
15:55:24 <Deewiant> I dunno, run with extra max verbosity or something
15:55:55 <AnMaster> -V Show verbose version numbers
15:56:13 <AnMaster> no change, guess it is just for package upgrades/installs
15:57:08 <AnMaster> can't find any "more verbose option" apart from that
15:58:19 <AnMaster> -q makes it loggable, so it doesn't use progress bars and such, and -qq makes it output errors only
16:00:22 <AnMaster> well there is -o for "set any configuration option" guess I will try to find a list of thosr
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16:30:01 <AnMaster> do people actually write VLIW asm
16:30:12 <AnMaster> I assume they must, for stuff in kernel and such
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17:02:30 * ais523 is trying to sort out university for this year
17:02:39 <ais523> apparently my course lasts a maximum of 4 years and a minimum of 6 years
17:02:51 <ais523> and until I pointed it out, nobody saw a problem with this
17:03:19 <AnMaster> ais523, does that mean "everyone thought that was normal" or "no one noticed the typo"?
17:03:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and what course is it that lasts that long
17:03:41 <ais523> I think it's that nobody had looked at both stats simultaneously
17:03:59 <ais523> and a 75% part-time PhD lasts 4 years (that's what I'm doing), if it had been 50% part-time it would last 6 years
17:04:07 <ais523> which is where the spurious 6-year figure seems to have come from
17:04:37 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the topic of the PhD?
17:04:54 <ais523> hardware synthesis from high-level languages
17:05:02 <ais523> well, higher level than VHDL, anyway
17:09:00 <AnMaster> that add/remove thing under the program menu in ubuntu sucks a bit:
17:09:21 <AnMaster> searching for RTS in the games section turns upp stuff like "Alien Blaster is a classic 2D shoot 'em up..."
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17:09:33 <AnMaster> I can't even imagine how that matched RTS
17:09:52 <AnMaster> oh point and click adventures turn up too for that term
17:10:04 <AnMaster> and turned based stratergy, at least that is closer
17:10:32 <AnMaster> no actual RTSes though, not even the ones I know exist in the repos
17:12:01 <AnMaster> much better luck looking in /usr/portage/games-stratergy on gentoo, at least you only get turn based and real time ones, instead of getting completely unrelated arcade, board game,s side scrollers and what not
17:12:12 <AnMaster> gentoo has a lot fewer games though
17:13:54 <ais523> AnMaster: add/remove is a rather dumbed-down interface
17:13:59 <ais523> use apt-cache search instead
17:14:03 <ais523> the command-line stuff tends to work better
17:14:40 <AnMaster> ais523, not like that... I mean, at least gentoo has eix which has nice colour coded output
17:15:42 <AnMaster> while apt-cache search RTS lists lots of unrelated stuff too
17:16:00 <AnMaster> apt-cache search --help isn't useful either
17:16:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and this matches descriptions or tags I hope?
17:16:34 <AnMaster> because I'm not just looking for packages *named* RTS
17:17:07 <ais523> maybe games don't call themselves "RTS", but "real time strategy"?
17:17:17 <AnMaster> but stuff like "foobar is a 3D RTS which takes place in a post nuclear dystopian setting"
17:18:01 <AnMaster> that gives a few hits, but those I know about and I'm pretty sure it is missing some
17:19:00 <AnMaster> great, the website of the one new I found just give php errors, it looks interesting in google cache though
17:19:08 <AnMaster> Fatal error: Out of memory (allocated 2883584) (tried to allocate 311296 bytes) in /home/glob2/public_html/wiki/languages/messages/MessagesEn.php on line 811
17:20:31 <AnMaster> if it needs several MB to display a page
17:21:14 <AnMaster> ouch it wants even more boost fail libs
17:21:28 <AnMaster> libboost-thread1.34.1 this time
17:22:02 <AnMaster> and ubuntu package is as usual way outdated
17:22:24 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, what was there to parse for going to a damn image page -_-
17:23:49 <ais523> lifthrasiir: what version of MediaWiki?
17:23:54 <ais523> they replaced the parser a couple of versions ago
17:24:00 <ais523> with one that isn't nearly as hackish
17:24:21 <lifthrasiir> ais523: i'm not sure, maybe older than 1.10?
17:24:34 <ais523> ok, that'll be the old parser then
17:25:06 <AnMaster> not exactly what I imagined, but doesn't seem bad as such
17:25:25 <lifthrasiir> anyway my server run several copies of mediawiki and they are becoming huge bottle neck... :S
17:25:57 <lifthrasiir> (to the point that ordinary bot can present practical DDoS attack to the wiki)
17:26:54 <ais523> lifthrasiir: even one copy of MediaWiki was enough to crash ehird's slice a while ago
17:32:14 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: btw, esotope-bfc would become a topic of my bachelor's thesis. so the project is likely to be revived... soon.
17:32:32 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, it was dead? And what on earth will your thesis be about?
17:32:56 <lifthrasiir> maybe about optimizing brainfuck compiler.
17:34:28 <lifthrasiir> and i don't know it was dead, but certainly i didn't work on it for months so... you know.
17:35:30 <lifthrasiir> (and of course the thesis would be in korean only. sadly i'm not good at academic writing in English)
17:40:09 <pikhq> Probably better than my academic writing in Japanese.
17:40:22 <pikhq> (my Japanese is about on par with that of a 2nd grader. Hooray?)
17:40:53 <lifthrasiir> of course i'm also not good at academic writing in Korean so that's not a problem. :p
17:58:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you want to find strategy-related games in the debian repos, just search for the game::strategy tag. (I'm not sure how to actually *do* that with apt, but the debtags smart-search can do it, at least.)
18:03:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, in-between is dead
18:20:46 <fizzie> Yes, the correct aptitude /-search for that is "?tag(game::strategy)", or alternatively "~Ggame::strategy". I don't think Synaptic (the graphical apt GUI Ubuntu comes with, I think?) knows anything about searching for tags, though.
18:21:19 <fizzie> (And I guess there's some even more dumbed-down add/remove-apps thing?)
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18:41:39 <ehird> 19:09:04 <Warrigal> Whenabouts was he born?
18:42:04 <ehird> 23:54:36 <fizzie> Sometimes the interweb speeds here at work make me a bit envious; I just fetched a 695 MiB Ubuntu image at an average speed of 28.1 MiB/s; that's about 236 Mbps. At home it's something like a fifteenth of that, and even that to one direction only.
18:42:10 <ehird> where do you work :|
18:42:39 <fizzie> It's there a bit later, but it's just that boring university.
18:44:52 <ehird> fizzie: better boring than shitty
18:45:01 <ehird> 06:56:02 <fizzie> It was nic.funet.fi (well, fi.archive.ubuntu.com, but that's the same thing), so it's sort-of part of the same network, if you count the whole Funet -- http://www.csc.fi/english/institutions/funet -- as a one network.
18:45:06 <ehird> oh you're on the same internet?
18:45:09 <ehird> that doesn't count then!
18:46:02 <fizzie> I can't be exactly sure where in Funet that Ubuntu mirror is.
18:46:12 <ehird> fizzie: i'm joking, i.e. funet is just a network like the internet
18:46:22 <ehird> so, hyperbolically, if funet is discounted the internet is!
18:47:22 <fizzie> Yes, you can only count downloads from the moon or Mars.
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18:48:07 <ehird> if I double click a word to select it in ubuntu
18:48:10 <ehird> then drag from there
18:48:14 <ehird> it makes a selection from my cursor position
18:48:17 <ehird> e.g. the middle of the word
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19:03:46 <ehird> 07:30:26 <AnMaster> I'm going to ask about terms and conditions in the mail though. If it is auto-processed, it isn't my fault.
19:03:48 <ehird> That's, uhh, false.
19:06:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Hit = Going there, nothing
19:06:40 <ehird> Ign = I don't want to look at this
19:06:50 <ehird> Get = Lol I be outdated, like de dinosorz
19:07:18 <ehird> 07:52:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, full output from http://pastebin.ca/1574011 from updating in a 32-bit chroot I use for cross compiling
19:07:24 <ehird> Gee, I'd try and help but you set that to expire.
19:07:49 <Deewiant> It just had two Ign and two Hit lines
19:09:02 <Deewiant> Or no, that was the full output
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19:09:29 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu.
19:10:16 <ehird> 08:30:01 <AnMaster> do people actually write VLIW asm
19:10:17 <ehird> 08:30:08 <AnMaster> if so, what does it look like
19:10:17 <ehird> 08:30:12 <AnMaster> I assume they must, for stuff in kernel and such
19:10:20 <ehird> See Itanium documentation.
19:11:00 <ehird> 09:03:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and what course is it that lasts that long
19:11:07 <ehird> Does Sweden not have PhDs or something
19:11:45 <ehird> 09:10:44 <AnMaster> complete and utter fail
19:11:57 <ehird> Waah, the search engine doesn't magically expand my algorithm and search with a strong AI
19:12:07 <ehird> I'm going to act like a 7 year old and say fail
19:12:19 <ehird> 09:13:54 <ais523> AnMaster: add/remove is a rather dumbed-down interface
19:13:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> It looks boring. <-- meh
19:14:24 <ehird> http://sverre.web.cern.ch/sverre/IA64_1.pdf
19:14:27 <ehird> Tutorial with examples
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19:15:58 <ehird> 09:14:40 <AnMaster> ais523, not like that... I mean, at least gentoo has eix which has nice colour coded output
19:15:59 <ehird> 09:14:44 <AnMaster> and nicely formatted
19:16:04 <ehird> You know, you could stop complaining and use Gentoo.
19:16:20 <ehird> 09:17:17 <AnMaster> but stuff like "foobar is a 3D RTS which takes place in a post nuclear dystopian setting"
19:16:30 <ehird> Debian usually opt for legible descriptions as opposed to requiring niche knowledge.
19:17:01 <ehird> 09:21:14 <AnMaster> ouch it wants even more boost fail libs
19:17:05 <ehird> Dependencies! Astonishing!
19:17:42 <ehird> 09:32:56 <lifthrasiir> maybe about optimizing brainfuck compiler.
19:17:50 <ehird> please, please, please use the proper name of the language
19:17:59 <ehird> everything i've seen that tries to be serious about it says BF :(
19:18:27 <ehird> "On Advanced Optimization Techniques for the Abstract Imperative Language 'Brainfuck'"
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19:18:42 <FireFly> :(, counter-increment: sum attr(id); no workie
19:18:43 <lament> map map map map fold fold fold fold
19:18:54 <ehird> "I don't think Synaptic (the graphical apt GUI Ubuntu comes with, I think?)"
19:18:59 <lament> select select select select aggregate aggregate aggregate aggregate
19:19:05 <ehird> The package manager, yes. Not the more friendly "Add/Remove..."
19:19:14 <ehird> lament: increment increment decrement decrement
19:20:27 <ehird> You know, the default radeon/ati driver kinda sucks when paired with Adobe Flash.
19:20:43 <ehird> As in "music is desynchronized by like a 1/4 second" sucks.
19:20:49 <ehird> Well, not just music.
19:20:53 <ehird> Like, every piece of audio.
19:21:01 <ehird> It doesn't look for music and then delay just that.
19:22:02 <fizzie> The delay is a function of the musicalnessity of the sound; it wouldn't delay, say, rap music, much if at all.
19:24:38 <fizzie> It's funny how Spotify under Wine keeps saying "fixme:ntdll:NtQueryInformationProcess (process=0xffffffff) Unimplemented information class: ProcessDebugFlags" once per second. I wonder if it's doing some sort of anti-anti-DRM "explode if someone's trying to use a debugger to extract song data" check, or if that's just unrelated Wine coincidence.
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19:24:58 <ehird> Torrents don't do that :-P
19:25:33 <fizzie> But it's not as user-friendly to browse around with torrents. Besides, I wouldn't get the wonderful Spotify ads then.
19:26:06 <ehird> Someone ought to make a content-type tailored torrent searcher.
19:26:36 <ehird> Although torrents will always be quite slow, even on a fast connection.
19:31:20 <fizzie> I have this Sennheiser USB microphone/speaker headset -- well, it has the normal 3.5 mm headphone/mic plugs, and an USB -> 2x3.5mm adapter -- and when I plug it in, it is detected as a HID device.
19:31:26 <fizzie> input: Sennheiser Communications Sennheiser USB Headset as /class/input/input5
19:31:26 <fizzie> generic-usb 0003:1395:0002.0004: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.00 Device [Sennheiser Communications Sennheiser USB Headset] on usb-0000:00:12.2-1.2/input3
19:31:58 <ehird> Move your mouse by talking into it.
19:32:12 <ehird> "Up. Up. Left. Right. No, a bit to the left. Click."
19:33:26 <fizzie> There's an Audio/Control Device interface, a couple of Audio/Streaming interfaces, and then a "No Subclass" HID device.
19:36:09 <fizzie> Heh, things are nowadays so complicated, with every device having all kinds of crazy parts. According to ALSA I have four sound cards, for example; one's the motherboard-integrated, one's this USB thing, one's the TV capture card, and one's the Radeon graphics card HDMI port.
19:43:05 <ehird> fizzie: The Radeon card actually works as a sound card, I think.
19:43:17 <ehird> Who knows how it compares to onboard.
19:44:03 <fizzie> I don't think I can get anything else than the digital s/pdif out of it, though. (And actually it's the onboard-integrated radeon, not a separate card. :p )
19:45:16 <fizzie> Anyway, the point of the exercise was to test whether with this USB adapter I could connect the better Sennheiser headphones to the computer without hearing the awful "you can hear the mouse moving" noise the chassis front panel headphone connector gives. (Yes.)
19:46:00 <ehird> Hearing the mouse moving sounds awesome.
19:46:53 <fizzie> I'm not sure if it's the USB-caused interrupts or what; you can also hear things happening on the screen; well, either that, or just the related computation.
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19:50:24 <fizzie> No sign of noise with this adapter, and since it's Sennheiser(TM), I'm sure it can't be completely awful w.r.t. audio quality in general, though I'm not really qualified to judge that.
19:51:26 <ehird> fizzie: I thought that too, until I heard sound emanating from a wireless headphone of theirs.
19:51:36 <ehird> Then again it was more the whole radio thing and less the actual headphones that did that.
19:52:15 <fizzie> Ooh, I had radio-based no-name-brand wireless headphones (because the cat kept eating the wires off the wired ones whenever I left them around), and I've seldom heard a worse thing.
19:54:22 <oerjan> 09:02:39 <ais523> apparently my course lasts a maximum of 4 years and a minimum of 6 years
19:54:25 <oerjan> 09:02:51 <ais523> and until I pointed it out, nobody saw a problem with this
19:54:45 <ehird> you get the phd accepted, submit it, write it, study the advanced stuff
19:54:49 <ehird> and it gradually gets more basic
19:56:03 <fizzie> Official length for PhD studies around here is 4 years, with the theoretical studies done during the first two years, and the dissertation and related research mostly during the other two.
19:56:37 <fizzie> Should go and fish around for some signatures, my graduate-studies application form needs to be returned by Friday.
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21:14:56 <ais523> hmm.. I can't even say hi back again
21:14:58 <ais523> because you aren't here...
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21:16:39 <ehird> I'd be fine if this radeon driver was just slow, but I'm pretty sure it's making Compiz unstable
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21:18:07 <ais523> you left before I could say hi
21:18:14 <ehird> that's what she said?
21:19:22 * ehird makes metacity compositing with gconf-editor because compiz is just so unstable with this driver
21:19:33 <ehird> and I need my damn window shadows
21:20:07 <ais523> I didn't realise metacity could composit
21:20:07 <ehird> unfortunately compositing metacity's window shadows have a bit too much radius and blur
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21:20:37 <ehird> /apps/metacity/general/compositing_manager
21:20:43 <ehird> you don't even need to restart it
21:20:56 <ehird> oh, and it draws the panel's window shadow underneath the windows
21:21:16 <ehird> which means you can put windows at the top or bottom and they won't look awful when unfocused
21:21:35 <ehird> (the shadow interacts with the beige inactive titlebar rather unpleasantly)
21:21:41 <ehird> apparently the compiz folks are trying to fix that though
21:22:56 <ehird> also, Ubuntu users: System -> Administration -> Software Sources -> Download from: -> Other... -> Select Best Server
21:23:09 <ehird> now apt-get update finishes in 0.6 seconds for me
21:23:15 <ais523> and recommend it over in #ubuntu whenever a new release comes out
21:23:15 <ehird> so everything is wonderfully fast
21:23:46 <ais523> I use the official Swedish server
21:23:46 <ehird> ais523: I got the same server trying it again about 5 minutes later, so this one I know is the best
21:23:54 <ehird> Oddly, it isn't in the UK
21:24:18 <ehird> nl2.archive.ubuntu.com
21:24:28 <ehird> ais523: why does it ping, though? that's not really an accurate test of total download speed, is it?
21:24:37 <ais523> and I do my scans just after release, which is when the Ubuntu servers are likely most overloaded
21:24:42 <ehird> I'd be willing to run something that takes 10 minutes instead of 2 to get a more accurate measure
21:24:50 <ais523> and although pinging isn't a good test of throughput, it /is/ a good test of congestion
21:25:11 <ais523> which is likely to be more important in general, as a congested server will take hours, whereas all non-congested servers will have similar times
21:25:15 <ehird> true, it's nice to have the Reload stuff in Add/Remove... and the like be instant
21:25:52 <ehird> (I'm quite pedantic about naming it with the ellipsis because Gnome has proper conventions for these things and I want them to stick)
21:26:09 <ehird> I should say GNOME, really, but it's not an acronym and that's an awfully shouty name
21:26:22 <ehird> not exactly humane :-P
21:26:42 <ehird> ais523: you use Epiphany sometimes, right?
21:26:48 <ais523> I have Epiphany open atm
21:27:08 <ais523> links from IRC open in Epiphany for me rather than Firefox
21:27:16 <ehird> ais523: a few questions that you may know - one, why did they remove epiphany-webkit in Jaunty so you have to add two webkit-dev PPAs and a PGP key?
21:27:26 <fizzie> Awesome has a compositing manager thing too; but literally the only thing it does is it can apply opacity values to active/inactive windows.
21:27:26 <ehird> also, you can configure that.
21:27:46 <ehird> btw, xmag makes quite a nice colour picker
21:27:50 <ais523> ehird: I use epiphany-mozilla atm
21:28:01 <ehird> you can select the general region then hover over individual pixels to find their rgb
21:28:14 <ehird> as (foo,bar,baz) where each element is repeated once
21:28:15 <ais523> and my guess is they removed it because nobody was willing to maintain it
21:28:18 <ehird> due to 16-bitness or something
21:28:30 <ehird> (f8f8,eaea,9797) etc
21:28:39 <ehird> ais523: wtf is epiphany-mozilla?
21:28:40 <ais523> ehird: that repetition would imply a 24-bit colour depth
21:28:52 <ais523> err... I mean epiphany-gecko
21:28:54 <ehird> right, which is standard
21:28:57 <ais523> it's been a long day, OK
21:29:08 <ehird> ais523: epiphany-gecko is all Ubuntu has right now, but Epiphany are going Gecko-only in the future
21:29:33 <ais523> I thought they were going Webkit-only
21:29:44 <ehird> btw, do you know where I can get a non-bitmap Chinese/Japanese font? annoying seeing all those pixelated characters among smoothed ones
21:29:52 <ais523> anyway, Epiphany does fit into Gnome really well
21:30:00 <ehird> yes, which is why I'd rather use it instead of Firefox
21:30:07 <ais523> even if it's not ideal as a browser itself, it's good enough, and the rest of the system really knows what it's doing
21:30:37 <ais523> my major annoyance with Epiphany atm is that you can't open a new tab by double-clicking the tab bar
21:30:40 <ehird> My favourite browser is Chrome, but it still draws that awful blue title/tab bar it uses on Windows XP and non-Aero Vista/7 in the super-alpha Linux version
21:30:49 <ehird> which makes it unusably puke-esque
21:30:50 <ais523> I should report that, it's not like double-clicking the bar does anything useful atm
21:31:07 <ehird> ais523: I had another complaint with the tab bar, but
21:31:11 <ehird> report it to the Gnome people
21:31:18 <ehird> they'll just use the stock Gnome tab bar, obviously
21:31:27 <ehird> or at least follow the Gnome conventions for tab bars strictly
21:31:35 <ehird> ais523: you can't middle-click to close a tab
21:31:39 <ehird> you have to hit the close button
21:31:46 <ehird> it's the same in Safari, but fucking annoying
21:32:00 <ais523> you're right, you can't
21:32:05 <ehird> I was using the PPA WebKit version, so probably not the same version as you (more recent)
21:32:11 <ehird> it has an uglier icon to the repository versions.
21:32:21 <ehird> yep, the Nautilus tab bar is identical
21:32:24 <ais523> yep, middle-clicking doesn't close tabs in Nautilus either
21:32:39 <ehird> anyway, I do that literally all the time, so it's very annoying
21:32:42 <ais523> at least it's not like Konqueror, where middle-clicking tries to interpret the selection contents as an URL and navigates there
21:32:57 <ehird> also if you middle click it goes to the URL in your clipboard
21:32:59 <ais523> it also causes you to lose the contents of the current tab as a result
21:33:10 <ais523> ehird: "also"? that's what I said
21:33:10 <ehird> Konqueror is insanity-inducing
21:33:17 <ehird> ais523: "selection contents"
21:33:22 <ehird> oh, is that the name of the X11 clipboard?
21:33:29 <fizzie> I think my Kanji characters and friends come from the ttf-{kochi,sazanami}-* packages, which I think are vector fonts, but I can't really say anything about the quality, since I can't decode the characters.
21:33:33 <ehird> huh, if you deselect it does indeed uncopy it
21:33:34 <ais523> I think it's technically called "primary selection" or something like that
21:33:58 <ehird> btw, Ubuntu's font rendering is quite passable in 9.04; they're using a new subpixel hinting thing
21:34:08 <ais523> I know, because I spent far too long fiddling with elisp trying to get copy-and-paste working between Windows and Emacs running on SunOS inside Exceed
21:34:23 <ehird> I'm using Slight hinting + subpixel right now, and I very rarely see any coloured fringes
21:34:26 <ais523> I managed it in the end, though; it was the easiest way to transmit information between the two systems
21:34:48 <ehird> ais523: anyway, another Epiphany query
21:34:54 <ehird> you know those Smart Bookmarks you drag to the toolbar?
21:34:56 <fizzie> There's a bit of add-on confusion in that X11 has both the primary selection and a separate "clipboard" selection.
21:34:57 <ais523> also, I never see coloured fringes on here with any settings but ones with the pixel order wrong
21:35:00 <ehird> or the toolbar with the address bar in
21:35:17 <ehird> ais523: darn. see http://projects.gnome.org/epiphany/smartbookmarks.html
21:35:28 <ais523> I don't have bookmarks on the toolbar at all in Epiphany
21:35:32 <ais523> instead I have them on the address bar
21:35:38 <ehird> basically, if you have a bookmark like the "Search the web" one included, with %s in it
21:35:42 <ehird> ais523: the address bar is on a toolbar
21:35:47 <ehird> anyway, you can drag it to any toolbar
21:35:52 <ehird> and it'll appear with a text field to the right
21:35:57 <ehird> ais523: right, I know that
21:35:59 <ais523> except programmed by hand rather than automatic
21:36:09 <ehird> that's useless, as you have to wait for a second for the completions to come up
21:36:11 <ehird> then hit down and enter
21:36:15 <fizzie> And I think there were something called "cut buffers" too?
21:36:16 <ehird> so it's worthless for googling
21:36:19 <fizzie> http://www.jwz.org/doc/x-cut-and-paste.html
21:36:29 <ehird> ais523: anyway, try dragging "Search the web" next to the address bar and you'll see
21:36:53 <ehird> the problems are twofold: one, you can't make it bigger, so the text box is always irritatingly small
21:37:00 <ehird> two, you can't assign the text box a keyboard shortcut
21:37:11 <ehird> so I can't do Ctrl+K hello Enter to google for something like I do now
21:37:37 <ehird> in conclusion, I can't find a way to search the web sanely with Epiphany
21:37:48 <ais523> you could always just visit Google and use the text box there
21:37:53 <ais523> that's not as good as the Firefox method, though
21:38:00 <ais523> it's not a problem I'd noticed, though
21:38:00 <ehird> ais523: do you have *any idea* how much I google?
21:38:04 <ais523> probably because I hardly use Google
21:38:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:38:24 <ehird> 1. type in query, wait a small amount of time, hit down to "Search the web" smart bookmark, enter
21:38:43 <ehird> 2. click dragged-to-toolbar "Search the web"'s input box, type query, enter (fastest out of these three)
21:38:45 <fizzie> If you want a point of reference, I just google with Ctrl-L "g hello" enter.
21:39:01 <ehird> 3. type in google.com, enter, wait for it to load, type query, enter
21:39:02 <ais523> oh, fun fact: today I was using someone else's computer (windows XP + IE), and I entered a URL wrong (it was one of the insane ones that need www. and don't work without)
21:39:12 <ehird> ais523: out of these, three is obviously the slowest by far
21:39:17 <ais523> so it decided to interpret my entry as a Bing search rather than going to the website
21:39:31 <ais523> Bing found the site as a result (nonsuprisingly, as I'd given it all the URL apart from the www)
21:39:32 <fizzie> Can't you do a smart-bookmark-with-a-"g"-keyword like that in Epiphany too?
21:39:36 <ais523> and when I clicked on the link, I got a security error
21:39:46 <ais523> on the basis that an untrusted website (Bing) was trying to link to a trusted one
21:39:59 <ehird> fizzie: I don't think so
21:40:06 <ehird> fizzie: even if you can, that's suboptimal
21:40:14 <ais523> this didn't really fill me with confidence in IE's usability...
21:40:25 <ehird> IMO, smart bookmarks are really stupid; the only use for them can be replaced with something like Firefox's search bar
21:40:39 <ehird> easily accessible, and you can easily add new engines with the OpenSearch thing that lets you add one from a compliant site
21:40:40 <ais523> they should just implement opensearch
21:40:46 <fizzie> There's no waiting involved, which (to me) is enough; because I really don't like the search bar.
21:40:55 <ehird> in conclusion, the Epiphany people are either just trying to be different for "simplicity" and failing wildly,
21:41:16 <ais523> my conclusions about Bing: it's not incredibly bad, but it still has no reason for existing
21:41:24 <fizzie> Because it looks so useless, there's already one text box up there, and it's bigger too.
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21:41:37 <ehird> fizzie: Ctrl-K, Ctrl-L g space
21:41:44 <ais523> it doesn't seem to have an obvious way of making money either
21:41:51 <ehird> also, do you have a really small screen or something?
21:41:58 <ais523> perhaps it has adverts that I mentally filtered out
21:42:07 <ais523> that version of IE certainly wasn't running adblock
21:42:14 <ais523> maybe it had adverts that I didn't notice...
21:42:20 <ehird> http://www.bing.com/search?q=ads&go=&form=QBLH&filt=all&qs=n
21:42:27 <ehird> taking up the whole third column
21:42:34 <fizzie> ehird: Still no waiting, and (again, for me) the g-space prefix is just a small-constant O(1) thing when compared to writing the search query itself.
21:42:41 <ais523> (nowadays, I'm using adblock to block avatar folders on forums, so I don't have to look at everyone's awful avatars)
21:42:54 <ehird> fizzie: yes, but if you can remove the constant without downside, why not?
21:42:59 <ais523> ehird: ah good point, it does have adverts
21:43:03 <ais523> I had to conciously look at them to see them, though
21:43:17 <ehird> that's the same with most people.
21:43:20 <ais523> is there something wrong with me?
21:43:22 <fizzie> It's not "without downside", it eats up space from the address bar; and the search-bar itself is so short you can hardly fit any longer queries there.
21:43:44 <ehird> fizzie: for one, how tiny are your browser windows, and how long are the URLs of the sites you use?!
21:43:53 <ehird> for two, text boxes can accept more than their width, you know
21:43:59 <ehird> and my search box isn't *that* small
21:44:01 <fizzie> Er, well, admittedly my main browser window is 1920 pixels wide nowadays.
21:44:16 <fizzie> I don't know, it's probably really just that I never got used to it, before getting the habit of the C-l g-googling.
21:44:59 <fizzie> And on the 1024x768 iBook the address bar (with the toolbar buttons to the left, and a reasonably-sized search bar to the right) *was* a bit short-ish.
21:45:41 * ais523 wonders what the smallest usable text box is
21:45:47 <ais523> 4 characters is probably enough to correct typos
21:46:32 <ehird> usable as in barely or usable as in usable?
21:47:43 <ehird> "keyboard shortcut to smart bookmark epiphany" on google, first result: "Epiphany is hype, get over it"
21:47:51 <ehird> which is a positive post about Epiphany...
21:47:58 <ehird> http://raphael.slinckx.net/blog/2006-03-15/epiphany-is-hype-get-over-it
21:49:04 <ais523> incidentally, what's the appropriate reaction when you go to the official website for a TV show, and find that it's on Geocities and most of the links go to under-construction pages?
21:49:22 <ehird> anyway, in an unsurprising move a new entry on my todo list has been created, that of "make a really *Gnome* IRC client featuring integration with Ubuntu's fancy messaging menu thing"
21:49:46 <ehird> and since you don't know what that is unless you use Pidgin or... one other email client, probably,
21:50:07 <ehird> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu
21:50:16 <ehird> well, I think Empathy integrates it too actually
21:50:27 <ehird> but I certainly went WTF when I saw it the first time...
21:50:32 <ehird> ais523: how old is this show?
21:51:09 <ais523> ehird: it's apparently very popular in France, but ran for a few years over in the UK and then went to satellite
21:51:21 <ehird> does it look Geocities?
21:51:29 <ais523> it even has that advert sidebar thing
21:51:33 <ehird> stop watching it :P
21:51:36 <ehird> ais523: all geocities pages have that...
21:51:48 <ais523> I got pretty good at Geocities back when it was popular
21:51:53 <ais523> ehird: you could have banner ads instead
21:51:56 <ehird> well, it's mandatory nowadays at least
21:52:00 <ais523> which weren't JS-laden, and so tended to work better than the sidebar
21:52:03 <ehird> ais523: I never saw that when I used it...
21:52:09 <ehird> I mean, even on geocities sites
21:52:16 <ehird> also, I used to use a script to hide the bar
21:52:20 <ais523> anyway, I used to connect a geocities site to a free domain name person
21:52:25 <ais523> in such a way that the ads cancelled each other out
21:52:35 <ais523> due to some sort of javascript crash
21:52:45 <ais523> I have no idea if it still exists
21:52:45 <ehird> those are the ones I used...
21:53:03 <ehird> hey, konversation was ported to kde 4
21:53:09 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out).
21:53:14 <ehird> it's, uh, still ugly
21:53:28 <ais523> <Help|About> Version 4.2.2 (KDE 4.2.2)
21:53:36 <ehird> http://konversation.kde.org/screenshots/konversation12-alpha5_3.png ;; heh, this is from an old version... those quick buttons beneath the user list are from X-Chat
21:53:44 <ehird> and are perhaps the ugliest interface ever devised
21:53:58 <ehird> i mean, wow, do you really deop people that much?
21:54:00 <ais523> Konversation doesn't fill me massively with confidence in terms of programming quality
21:54:18 <ais523> although they were very responsive when I sent them a bug report
21:54:24 <ais523> it was a great bug, btw
21:54:30 <ehird> Konversation was my preferred IRC client in 2006 using Kubuntu
21:54:35 <ais523> typing /msg then a channel opened a second tab for the channel
21:54:40 <ais523> which could send but not receive
21:54:45 <ehird> the version before Kubuntu turned to purple, iirc
21:54:50 <ehird> ais523: Remember when Kubuntu turned purple?
21:54:55 <ehird> that release was so ugly...
21:55:11 <ais523> I've given up on trying to track irrelevant Konversation UI changes
21:55:18 <ehird> http://pillateunlinux.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/4-kubuntu610-1.png
21:55:19 <ais523> and I don't think I used KDE that release
21:55:37 <ehird> window borders: http://openlife.cc/system/files/snapshot1-640x400.png
21:55:46 <ais523> that link isn't too bad apart from the cog things in the menu sidebar
21:55:55 <ehird> the first thing I did that release was change the theme, or at least its colours
21:55:58 <ehird> ais523: the purple, man!
21:56:02 <ehird> it was overpowering
21:56:05 <ais523> I don't consider that colour to be purple
21:56:15 <ais523> (but then, colours are perceived differently by different people)
21:56:17 <ehird> it's the ugliest shade of blue, then
21:56:28 <ehird> ais523: note that that screenshot is darker than it was
21:56:30 <ehird> http://openlife.cc/system/files/snapshot1-640x400.png
21:56:35 <ehird> see the sidebar background
21:56:42 <ehird> that's the colour it was
21:57:26 <ehird> but, I mean, the release before was http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/linux/install/files/anomalieaftereboot.png (except that screenshot's tinted too)
21:57:30 <ehird> so it was a lot... bluer
21:57:46 <ais523> ouch, that previous release is far too bluish-cyan
21:57:57 <ais523> I'd have to darken the background of that one to avoid hurting my eyes
21:58:11 <ehird> ais523: WTF? that's not cyan
21:58:19 <ais523> it's cyaner than pure blue is
21:58:20 <ehird> are you sure your display is adjusted right?
21:58:25 <ehird> it's very much blue
21:58:36 <ais523> try changing the alpha
21:58:39 <ais523> it obviously goes cyan when lightened
21:58:46 <ais523> whereas, blue goes lilacy when lightened
21:58:49 <ehird> ais523: no, my display is calibrated...
21:59:14 <ehird> that is totally blue, man.
21:59:18 <ais523> how do you extract RGB codes from xmag?
21:59:26 <ehird> hover over a pixel
22:00:05 <ais523> that's substantially greener than it is red
22:00:13 <ais523> (/me removed the repeats)
22:00:17 <ehird> it's slightly purplish blue...
22:00:30 <ais523> it's the oracle link that gave that colour
22:00:43 <ehird> rtttttttttfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff444444444444444444444455555555555555555554555555555555555555555555555555oh crpa
22:01:08 <ehird> well this is annoying
22:01:13 <ais523> the openlife.cc title bars are 6977a6
22:01:27 <ehird> ais523: openlife.cc is 6.10
22:01:30 <ehird> my last link was 6.04
22:01:32 <ais523> again very slightly greener than red, although that's almost exactly pure blue
22:01:35 <ehird> which is the non-puple
22:01:35 <ais523> yes, I'm comparing the two links
22:01:49 <ais523> the one you say is non-purple I say is bluish-cyan, and the hex agrees
22:01:49 <ehird> title bas a ielevant
22:02:04 <ehird> i'm really not interested in this
22:02:05 <ais523> the one you say is purple I say is blue, and the hex agrees
22:02:09 <ais523> but yes, this is a silly topic
22:02:13 <ehird> ais523: no, look at the sidebar
22:02:20 <ehird> the Appearance selection, say
22:02:49 <ehird> EdgyEft/RC/Kubuntu - Ubuntu Wiki
22:02:50 <ehird> For information on previous releases of Kubuntu 6.10, the Edgy Eft, ... it has been decorated with the latest purple scheme, and the Kubuntu gears logo. ...
22:02:58 <ais523> greener than it is red
22:03:00 <ehird> [Bug 62618] edgy default purple color ugly
22:03:00 <ehird> 27 Sep 2006 ... [Bug 62618] edgy default purple color ugly. Marc Schiffbauer ... theme (window decorations and background) that kubuntu 6.10 has as default. ...
22:03:00 <ehird> www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-bugs@lists.../msg60562.html - Cached - Similar -
22:03:03 <ehird> Artwork/Incoming/Attic/Kubuntu-Edgy-Ideas - Ubuntu Wiki
22:03:03 <ehird> 6 Aug 2008 ... The vision I have for Kubuntu Edgy is defined by use of color (purple and blue), texture (bubbles and/or a real pic and/or a mix of the two) ...
22:03:06 <ehird> Kubuntu Edgy Eft (Glass) KDE-Look.org
22:03:06 <ehird> Kubuntu Edgy Eft (Glass) KDE-Look.org Community Portal for KDE Themes ... of) and purple for the purists and traditionalists who'll yell "Edgy is purple! ...
22:03:14 <ehird> ais523: Kubuntu 6.10 was purple, and I rest my case.
22:03:15 <ais523> clearly, the names I use for colours match up with the ones that computers use, but not the ones the general public use
22:03:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> 09:03:37 <AnMaster> ais523, and what course is it that lasts that long
22:03:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> Does Sweden not have PhDs or something
22:03:26 <ehird> ais523: including the people behind it
22:03:50 <ais523> I'm just surprised that people can call 7579ba purple
22:03:58 <ais523> but then, most people consider, say, ddddff purple
22:04:01 <AnMaster> do you use "course" both for the full thing and for stuff like "networking in java"?
22:04:21 <ais523> although it's only correct usage for the full thing
22:04:24 <ais523> the second would technically be "module"
22:04:28 <ais523> but people call it "course" often anyway
22:04:55 <ehird> incidentally, I find it odd that Gnome has a bunch of disparate download folder settings, and each app does its own download manager
22:05:21 <Deewiant> ais523: What should one call 7579ba
22:05:23 <ehird> the Gnome way would be to have a folder ~/.gnome2/downloads that every app downloads to, and when you open it in Nautilus it's special (like the Wastebasket or a CD)
22:05:31 <ais523> Deewiant: I'd consider it a shade of blue
22:05:33 <ehird> it always displays as a list, and you have progess bars/a cancel button
22:05:38 <ehird> plus that orange header saying "Downloads"
22:05:42 <ais523> because it's as green as it is red, and it's bluer than that
22:05:46 <ehird> then you can move them elsewhere
22:05:50 <ais523> and nor is it very white, grey, or black
22:05:53 <ehird> I find it odd they haven't done that
22:05:55 <ehird> maybe they plan to
22:06:15 <ais523> ehird: there's evidence they plan to, at least
22:06:19 <ehird> well, the folder actually opened would be downloads:/
22:06:21 <AnMaster> here it would be (loosely translated): "master program" (bleh for Swenglish) but the "networking in java" would be called "kurs" which according to dictionaries means "course"
22:06:25 <ais523> there's a setting for download folder in one of the conf files somewhere
22:06:31 <ehird> but it'd show files from ~/.gnome2/downloads
22:06:37 <AnMaster> ais523, which explains why I was confused why it was so long
22:06:50 <ehird> ais523: just the centralised download location or the Nautilus thing too?
22:07:12 <fizzie> How confusing; around here a "course" is a single-topic lectures-and-so-on usually-ends-in-an-exam thing, and a "module" is one of a couple of multi-course building blocks which together make up the degree.
22:07:16 <ais523> ehird: Nautilus seems not to know of it
22:07:22 <ais523> in fact, nothing seems to download there except manually
22:07:29 <ehird> ais523: I invented it
22:07:38 <ais523> although, I think I borked the config when I accidentally renamed every file in my home directory
22:07:39 <ehird> ais523: read up to "incidentally, I find it odd that Gnome has a bunch of disparate download folder settings, and each app does its own download manager" onwards for a few lines
22:07:52 <ehird> ais523: I explain a more Gnomey system that I'm surprised hasn't been adopted already
22:07:52 <ais523> it wasn't nearly as bad as deleting the thing by mistake, but it certainly caused a lot of chaos
22:08:07 <ais523> especially as the desktop couldn't find ~/Desktop, so defaulted to ~
22:08:14 <ais523> and the desktop contained everything in my home folder
22:08:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:08:23 <Deewiant> ais523: Lavender is pretty close to ddddff and it's a shade of purple
22:08:38 <fizzie> There's that ECTS standard "credit" for amount-of-study; can't seem to find out whether they've standardised any related terminology.
22:08:48 <ais523> Deewiant: I suppose colour names are almost impossible to standardise across people
22:08:53 <ais523> to me, ddddff is blue by definition
22:09:02 <ais523> and I base my recognition of colours on that definition
22:09:14 <ehird> blue is 0000ff :-P
22:09:15 <Deewiant> Wikipedia says lavender is e6e6fa, which is more green/red and less blue
22:09:20 <ehird> but yes, ubuntu 6.10 was lavender
22:09:38 <ais523> what colour would you say indigo was, by the way?
22:09:48 <ais523> ever since people said there were 7 colours in a rainbow
22:09:55 <ais523> indigo's allegedly some sort of dark blue
22:09:58 <ais523> but there isn't dark blue in a rainbow
22:10:04 <ais523> all the colours are much the same brightness
22:10:07 <fizzie> "In U.S. education, a course is a unit of teaching that typically lasts one academic term, is led by one or more instructors (teachers or professors), has a fixed roster of students, and gives each student a grade and academic credit.-- Courses are made up of individual sessions, typically on a fixed weekly schedule." That sounds like our courses.
22:10:15 <ehird> depending on the shade
22:10:18 <ehird> either blue or purple
22:10:32 <ais523> fizzie: if US and UK used the terms differently, it would explain the confusion
22:11:06 <ehird> really, it's rather obvious from the years
22:12:26 <ehird> incidentally, one of Epiphany/WebKit's current flaws is that it has no extensions
22:12:36 <ehird> maybe I'll install Ubuntu epiphany-gecko and see if it can do the search bar thing
22:13:09 <ais523> http://blog.rlove.org/2005/10/with-little-help-from-your-compiler.html <-- ouch
22:13:17 <ais523> many people are complaining about the semantic changes depending on compiler in that
22:13:29 <ais523> what I noticed was that they were messing with double-underscore identifiers they weren't allowed to use
22:13:39 <ais523> #define __pure can literally do /anything/ in the C standard, for instance
22:13:41 <fizzie> Let's see what OED says. Wow, that's a long entry; that word is so very overloaded. Full of stuff like "b. Eccl. The prescribed series of prayers for the seven canonical hours." but nothing about education-related terminology.
22:14:02 <ehird> ais523: what's wrong with that post?
22:14:05 <ais523> I can even imagine a legit non-DS9K compiler in which that sort of thing causes link errors
22:14:10 <ais523> ehird: the reddit article explains half the problems
22:14:13 <ehird> argh, I hate xchat-gnome; like xchat, it has absolutely no line spacing between lines
22:14:18 <ehird> reading IRC is quite a chore...
22:14:22 <ais523> but basically, look at __packed, for instance
22:14:27 <ehird> ais523: you didn't link to the relevant reddit thing
22:14:27 <ais523> that makes a semantic change to the code
22:14:35 <ais523> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9mg4l/with_a_little_help_from_your_compiler/
22:14:47 <Deewiant> ais523: "For instance." Any others/
22:15:24 <ais523> any of them could bork system headers
22:15:27 <ais523> the #define inline in particular
22:15:33 <fizzie> ehird: "You can always make your own font-variant which includes the line-spacing you want."
22:15:50 <ehird> fizzie: is that a quote :D
22:15:50 <ais523> also the define on __const
22:16:04 <ehird> fizzie: say it again so it is!
22:16:13 <fizzie> ehird: "You can always make your own font-variant which includes the line-spacing you want."
22:16:27 <ehird> fizzie: oh man, what idiot said that?
22:16:42 <ais523> also, the likely and unlikely macros are crazy, in that the gcc versions cast to boolean, the non-gcc versions leave it as an int
22:16:42 <fizzie> ehird: It was this fizz-erly-something guy.
22:17:01 <ehird> fizzie: what a moron!
22:17:18 <ehird> ais523: what's boolean defined as?
22:17:29 <ais523> which casts to boolean whether it's defined or not
22:17:37 <ehird> [[Meh, "likely/unlikely" pale in comparison with the __assume intrinsic of VC++. It's for when you assert and mean it, like a real man! It allows you to bend software reality any way you want! Say __assume(x == 4) and the compiler would eliminate the variable by constant propagation. Say __assume(0) and the compiler would consider the containing piece of code unreachable and eliminate it.]]
22:17:44 <ais523> "#define __malloc" is great, too
22:17:54 <ehird> "whether it's defined or not"?
22:18:00 <ais523> whether boolean is defined or not
22:18:06 <ais523> as in, NetHack has a typedef something boolean
22:18:10 <ais523> and many other codebases do too
22:18:18 <ais523> and splint lets you tell it what your boolean type is called
22:18:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can say "cast to boolean" when they actually don't do *that* much to the type, just clamp the values to 0, 1.
22:18:56 <ais523> well, that's the same thing as casting to (C99's) boolean, isn't it?
22:19:18 <ais523> the fun thing about "#define __malloc" is that __malloc is an /incredibly/ likely token to appear in system headers
22:19:18 <ehird> hmm... Pidgin is a terrible IRC client, but I wonder if libpurple(the library underneath)'s IRC support is any good?
22:19:27 <ehird> I hope not, because I like inventing the wheel :P
22:19:32 <fizzie> Isn't !!1L still a long, while (boolean)1L might not be? I don't really know, that's just what I'd think.
22:19:34 <ais523> and deleting it at random could create all sorts of fun
22:19:41 <ehird> although I like reinventing it too, really
22:19:48 <ehird> btw, "libpurple(the library underneath)'s"
22:19:55 <ais523> fizzie: both resulting values will cast to the same values if cast to the same type, though
22:19:57 <ehird> anyone run into a similar syntactical quandary before?
22:20:07 <ais523> ehird: you can do that in email addresses
22:20:44 <fizzie> Yes, but it makes a difference if you put them to the X in "long foo = INT_MAX + X", I guess?
22:20:48 <ais523> __assume would be easy enough to implement in C-INTERCAL, anyway
22:20:56 <ehird> "And a C or C++ program that names a type something_t is also not portable as _t is reserved either by the C standard or by POSIX."
22:20:59 <ais523> although it would have to be an operator, because the optimiser doesn't cross statements yet
22:21:06 <ais523> (predicting flow control is far too difficult in INTERCAL)
22:21:08 <ehird> ais523: that answers my question about whether I should name my types like that in the Splinted program...
22:21:25 <ais523> yep, _t is reserved by POSIX unconditionally for future expansion
22:21:34 <ais523> and by C99 for certain patterns before the underscore
22:21:46 <ehird> hmm... alt-tab has an annoying lag in metacity
22:22:04 <ais523> also, you can't have a function called is followed by a lowercase letter followed by anything, or str followed by a lowercase letter followed by anything
22:22:50 <Deewiant> But you can have a function called is or str followed by a lowercase letter followed by nothing?
22:23:22 <fizzie> The _t typedef naming is pretty common; people like to live dangerously.
22:23:36 <ehird> Nothing is in anything, isn't it?
22:24:27 <Deewiant> In that case, "followed by anything" means nothing.
22:24:49 <ehird> No, it means that folllowed by anything means some or no text.
22:25:21 <ehird> Omitting it implies "end of text"; i.e., strx is illegal but strxfoo isn't.
22:26:48 * ehird wonders if you can gpg-encrypt a loopback device as an alternative to truecrypt :-D
22:27:26 <ehird> like, mount a two-way FIFO
22:27:35 <ehird> and have it gpg encrypt/decrypt
22:27:46 <ais523> <MSDN> # define ASSERT(e) ( ((e) || assert(__FILE__, __LINE__) )
22:27:48 <fizzie> That doesn't sound very seekable.
22:27:51 <ais523> is it me, or is there something very wrong with that line?
22:28:01 <ais523> or does VC++ use a nonstandard definition of assert?
22:28:52 <ehird> ais523: overloaded?
22:28:57 <ehird> this is C++, after all
22:29:11 <ehird> fizzie: well, it decrypts it all at first
22:29:14 <ais523> assert's defined as a macro in the standard headers
22:29:20 <ehird> fizzie: although I guess that's keeping it in memory
22:29:25 <ehird> so what if it's slow! :D
22:29:31 <ais523> that are defined by the standard
22:29:33 <ais523> you can't overload macros
22:29:37 <ehird> ais523: and that's defined in the standard headers, so they're exempt.
22:29:52 <ehird> ais523: clearly it's defined before #define assert()
22:29:52 <ehird> and assert is their function defined before
22:30:03 <ais523> that was a code example
22:30:05 <ehird> #define assert(x) foo
22:30:09 <ais523> that definition of ASSERT isn't a standard one
22:30:12 <ehird> that doesn't use assert, does it?
22:31:17 <ais523> <MSDN, discussing assert> Evaluates an expression and, when the result is false, prints a diagnostic message and aborts the program.
22:31:21 <ais523> well, that's the /correct/ definition
22:31:38 <ais523> so I have no clue what's going on here
22:32:19 <ais523> although they suggest that code should use System::Diagnostics::Debug::Assert instead
22:33:03 <fizzie> It's just a code example, it might be, you know, wrong. Or trying to show how to implement an assert macro (called "ASSERT") with file-and-line-printing, using a custom underlying assert() function, without thinking about the standard assert at all.
22:33:12 <ais523> my guess is that it's wrong
22:33:19 <ais523> it's still shoddy behaviour, though
22:33:36 <ais523> and even if it's meant to be a custom assert, it's incredibly bad style and thus shouldn't be used in code examples in the official documentation
22:33:38 <fizzie> I guess you are allowed to name a function assert() if you want, and call it too, as long as you don't include <assert.h>?
22:37:27 <ehird> ok, firefox crashed
22:37:43 <ehird> time to install epiphany-gecko because I'm too lazy to add the PPA for now and this might have useful extensions
22:38:49 <ehird> ais523: do you know if apt-get purge wipes gconf things too?
22:39:08 <ais523> as in, I know that I don't know
22:39:11 <ais523> not I don't know whether I know
22:39:20 <ais523> but if I'd said "no", that would also be ambiguous
22:40:20 <ehird> ais523: another problem I have with Epiphany is that it uses Gnome default settings for the default font size; in my case 10pt
22:40:28 <ehird> but the default size on the web tends to be 12pt = 16px
22:40:42 <ehird> so <font size=-1> and other pages using sizes relative to the default have small text
22:40:48 <ehird> which is intensely irritating
22:40:54 <ehird> and applies to quite a bit of pages
22:41:01 <ehird> there used to be an option to change this
22:41:07 <ehird> but it seems they removed that, which is a fun regression
22:43:07 <ais523> websites saying smaller-than-default font for everything are insane
22:43:10 <ais523> IMO, it's the website's fault
22:43:27 <ehird> what, for sizing text?
22:43:40 <ais523> for putting a relative size on text that doesn't leave most of the text on the site at default
22:43:43 <ais523> it's default for a reason!
22:44:19 <ehird> Yes, and that reason being that firstly it's a fucking pain to change it and secondly almost all users won't bother changing it even if they can.
22:44:28 <ehird> Oops, no, wait, that's an argument for a browser being PRACTICAL.
22:44:33 <ehird> Besides, I prefer the 16px font on the web
22:44:47 <ehird> But I can't change it without changing the font size for ALL documents, including IRC, because it's the DEFAULT SIZE.
22:44:58 <ais523> you prefer websites and nonwebsites to have differently sized text?
22:45:16 <ehird> For a lot of things, yes.
22:45:26 <ehird> Surprisingly enough, most applications are unlike a web browser.
22:45:27 <ais523> it's an attitude I find hard to understand
22:45:36 <ais523> it's text in both cases, and in both cases generally I want to read it
22:45:40 <ehird> because you barely use any programs
22:45:44 <ais523> so I want it at a good size for me to read
22:46:01 <ehird> no, it's not "text" in both cases
22:46:03 <ehird> it's not an article
22:46:15 <ehird> "Document" in Gnome is almost everything in the window body
22:46:25 <ehird> apart from UI elements
22:47:54 <ais523> ehird: so suppose you were reading an IRC log in your browser
22:48:00 <ais523> would you want that a different size from talking on IRC?
22:48:13 <ehird> Surprisingly enough, it's called a default because it's not appropriate in ALL cases.
22:48:29 <ehird> Oops, wait, in ais523's idealised web nobody sets the font size because the default is always right.
22:48:55 <ais523> ehird: I'm sort of in favour of semantically correct web pages with no stylesheets
22:49:12 <ais523> although I can't get away with it because IE's default stylesheet is (or at least used to be) truly awful
22:49:24 <ehird> So basically, you want to codify every type of information, every context it might be presented in, and just about everything in one XML schema.
22:50:11 <ais523> I don't think the correct appearance of information tends to correlate very much with what that information is
22:50:36 <ais523> as in, reading an email is much the same as reading an essay
22:51:43 <ehird> maybe I should become dictator and then force everyone to read one typography book and one information design book
22:52:03 <ehird> pros: world becomes a better place
22:52:07 <ehird> cons: moral code violated
22:54:34 <ehird> hmm, the Epiphany in the Ubuntu repositories has the required settings to untiny the fonts
22:54:59 <ehird> they're set to the right thing by default, except you have to move it one down and one up
22:55:13 <ehird> presumably because it's filling it in without having saved it yet, and the backend doesn't use the default as the default shown there...
22:58:36 <ehird> ais523: do you know how to delete a gconf folder?
22:58:43 <ais523> I hardly mess with gconf
22:58:54 <ais523> if I wanted to go around endlessly configuring things, I'd use KDE
23:00:13 <ehird> yeah, uh, thanks for the dismissal but i was trying to remove the old epiphany prefs
23:00:26 <ehird> just rm -rfing the dir got rid of the preferences, but left the folder
23:00:38 <ehird> I guess gconf-daemon isn't synchronized yet
23:00:44 <AnMaster> reading up on IA64 asm coding: conclusion is IA64 really rocks
23:00:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it really doesn't
23:00:58 <ehird> considering that it turns out to be slower
23:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, how much is due to it being so different that usual compilers didn't work very well. Because that is one known issue with it.
23:01:42 <ehird> no, it was just really slow in general.
23:02:00 <AnMaster> ehird, but predicated execution! And lots more.
23:02:40 <AnMaster> ehird, also why? some fundamental deign flaw or just poor implementation?
23:03:01 <AnMaster> (on the hardware level I mean)
23:03:20 <ehird> Considering how much money Intel put into it and how much marketing and the fact that they've made a bunch of Itanium-based processors, and they're all slow, I conclude that the architecture sucks.
23:03:59 <ehird> It's just slow. In general. At everything.
23:04:08 <AnMaster> ehird, C code for benchmarking?
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23:04:53 <AnMaster> huh? I'm just asking about the details for how it was deemed slow
23:04:53 <ais523> ARM were claiming to get something like 5 times the performance for the same power usage recently
23:04:58 <ais523> although I don't know what those figures are based on
23:05:05 <ais523> and it's almost certainly been marketing-spun to some extent
23:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it was slow. at. everything.
23:05:43 <ehird> It's like asking what code was used to conclude that the Pentium 4 is slower than the Core 2.
23:05:51 <ehird> It's not slow at some benchmark. It's just slow in general.
23:06:12 <ehird> ais523: wrong window.
23:06:13 <AnMaster> ehird, How was it messured. I mean, looking at the IA64 architecture it would be best at very parallel tasks, with few dependencies
23:06:28 <ais523> ehird: no, it was a joky example of how to benchmark processors
23:06:28 <ehird> AnMaster: How was WHAT measured?
23:06:30 <ehird> IT IS SLOW IN GENERAL!
23:06:34 <AnMaster> rather than stuff where each calculation depends on the previous part
23:06:37 <ehird> At everything! By multiple people!
23:06:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but what was the specific benchmarks
23:07:03 <AnMaster> as far as I can see it is basically SIMD most of the time
23:07:33 <ehird> In AnMaster's world, if someone says "the processors turned out to all be slow", that means they're referring to a single run of benchmarks by a single group as opposed to it JUST BEING SLOW.
23:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm wondering what sort of reports you will write at uni when you get there
23:08:52 <ehird> ais523: am I being insane or is he responding to "Itanium turned out to be slower than x86 in every processor they've made" with "You will fail at university because you aren't providing a meticulous citation to a single source of a single benchmark run"
23:09:33 <ais523> AnMaster: I think ehird's trying to say that eir opinion isn't rigorous, just an estimate based on eir own experience
23:09:44 <ais523> if the gaps as large as e claims, an estimate will easily be good enough
23:09:46 <ehird> that's not what I'm saying at all
23:09:53 <ehird> I never said anything close to that
23:11:12 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, the concept sounds good, possibly the implementation (the actual architecture) was sucky. basic stuff like predicated execution, VLIW, and so on is all great
23:11:24 <AnMaster> plus a lot more money has been spend on x86
23:12:48 <AnMaster> less work often means worse results. Not implying that IA64 had a small budget or effort wasn't spent on it. Just saying overall, x86 had a lot more of that during the years
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23:18:23 <Ilari> How fast CPU is is affected by lots of things. Clock frequency, pipeline depth, auxillary function units, proneness to hazards, etc...
23:18:47 <ehird> Ilari: what benchmarks proved this?
23:18:54 <Ilari> Netburst P4 was bad at pretty much everything except clock frequency.
23:18:55 <ehird> i want specific benchmarks!
23:18:59 <ehird> oh, you don't have any?
23:19:02 <ehird> guess you fail at life
23:21:13 <Ilari> Longer pipeline slows things down by being so long that one can't get enough paralelism to keep the CPU busy. Also, cost of triggering hazard is proportional to length of pipeline.
23:21:28 <ais523> pipelines have a weird effect on efficiency
23:21:37 <ais523> they increase latency, increase throughput, and make mispredictions worse
23:22:53 <Ilari> Yeah, there is some sweet spot where performance enchancement due to higher clock frequency and de-enhancement due to insufficient paralelism and hazards balance...
23:24:16 <Ilari> But at given clock frequency, lengthening the pipeline tends to be negative impact...
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01:15:53 <ehird> * ehird submits login form
01:16:01 <ehird> <Epiphany> ? [OK] [Cancel]
01:16:09 <ehird> (except without the ?, just wanted to show it was a dialog box)
01:20:03 <Ilari> That's why applications used by (l)users that show dialogs should have feature that logs for each dialog box: Who got it, When, what was the title, what was the message, what were the choices, what choice user made and how long it took for user to decide. :->
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01:22:34 <ehird> Ilari: Or just not pop up empty dialog boxes :P
01:23:57 <Ilari> Ah, the ultimate "dilemma dialog"... Dialog box with no text and two buttons, "Yes" and "No".
01:24:07 <ehird> Yes, that's what Epiphany gave me.
01:24:09 <ehird> Ilari: Also, wouldn't that be better displayed by repeating the dialog box with the chosen option in the push-down state and the unchosen option greyed out?
01:24:22 <ehird> Same with any checkboxes on it, etc.
01:26:35 <ehird> Ilari: In fact, why not just constantly capture a video of the screen? :P
01:28:31 <Ilari> ehird: Would take too much space.
01:28:44 <ehird> Ilari: How big is your disk?
01:30:05 <Ilari> ehird: This is old and crappy computer: 39 036 692KiB FS total space.
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01:31:41 <ehird> `calc 39 036 692 kilobytes in gigabytes
01:31:42 <HackEgo> www.ngindex.com/browsegroup.php?groupid=150 - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
01:31:49 <ehird> `calc 39036692 kilobytes in gigabytes
01:31:50 <HackEgo> 39 036 692 kilobytes = 37.2282906 gigabytes
01:32:35 <Ilari> RAM size is quite "ouch" as well...
01:38:05 <Ilari> Unfortunately, buying new computer isn't just going to large deparment store and buying something... At least not if you at all care what you get...
01:44:28 <ehird> Buying a ThinkPad and plugging a monitor into it is probably the easies/cheapest way to get a good prebuilt computer :P
01:45:10 <ehird> Doesn't exactly matter if you plug in a monitor and peripherals.
01:45:26 <Ilari> Well... Let's just say that "prebuilt" is not an absolute requirement...
01:45:34 <ehird> Of course, I was just responding to that line.
01:46:08 <ehird> But really, it's not exactly hard... you only need a handful of components and the choice is usually clear.
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01:48:21 <Ilari> Case, PSU, CPU, Memory, Motherboard, optical drive, HDD, Video card (if you care about video performance or motherboard has no video controller), NIC (again if not integrated), FDD (if one really wants one)... Anything else?
01:48:43 <Ilari> Ah, sound card (if not integrated).
01:49:24 <ehird> Forget video card, NIC and FDD: get a motherboard with those integrated (Nvidia for the graphics, due to having the best Linux performance and good performance in general) and who uses floppy (although it's a $5 affair)
01:49:41 <ehird> So case, PSU, CPU, memory, mobo, optical, drive, maybe floppy drive.
01:51:40 <ehird> newegg is the thing to find what to buy, although not to actually buy unless you're in the US... but there isn't much actual choosing to do: optical drives are pretty much the same unless you're talking pricey.
01:51:56 <ehird> Same with cases above a minimum baseline, unless you care a lot about noise levels.
01:52:14 <ehird> So there's pretty much five choices to make, and they're mainly based on budget...
01:52:30 <Ilari> Probably best to start with motherboards, then that constrains memory/CPU...
01:52:46 <ehird> Ilari: although the best thing to decide is AMD or Intel imo
01:53:00 <ehird> but that basically comes down to budget
01:53:23 <Ilari> Some serious old-school, but I would really like PS/2 input ports and VGA output... :-)
01:53:34 <ehird> Every mobo has that, except maybe VGA.
01:53:44 <ehird> You could also get PS/2 adapters, unless you really hit more than six keys at once.
01:54:08 <ehird> Mobo is pretty constrained, though, as there aren't all that many desktop mobos with Nvidia graphics.
01:54:17 <ehird> Less than ATI, I'd say. Although I'm not sure there.
01:54:55 <Ilari> More "ouch" from this computer: current X graphics driver: fb.
01:56:40 <ehird> As far as CPUs go it's pretty simple... AMD if you're on a budget, otherwise a Core 2 Duo, or a Quad if you care about performance, or a Core i7 if you *really* care about performance and have infinite money...
01:56:41 <Ilari> And it isn't going to be gaming setup. So I don't think graphics performance is that important. Stability is.
01:57:01 <ehird> nvidia drivers for linux are the second most stable to intel, but the Intel drivers are really, really, really bad
01:57:28 <ehird> probably slower than your fb there
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01:58:54 <ehird> Hmm, I said five choices, but PSU is pretty much "get the highest-rated ~300-350W in your budget" unless you have a beefy CPU...
02:00:08 <ehird> And then CPUs and therefore motherboards aren't choices either, being primarily budget-based... and cases don't matter as long as they're not plastic crap... and memory is basically DDR2 vs DDR3, and since DDR2 is cheaper and most cpus/mobos don't support DDR3...
02:00:14 <ehird> So the only choice is the drive.
02:00:30 <Ilari> If one can get kernel-level framebuffer, then one could configure X to use fb. That should get crappy drivers out of hotpath... :-/
02:01:05 <ehird> Ilari: The proprietary Nvidia drivers are pretty much rock-solid, being used by a huge portion of Linux users.
02:01:28 <ehird> Although if I wouldn't accept any proprietary software at all, I'd get an Intel card and deal with the slowness...
02:01:53 <ehird> ...but then I'd also use that funky non-free-stuff extracted kernel, as that's about as non-free
02:05:34 <Ilari> Heh... I just thought about video driver stability: "What could posibly go wrong with vesafb" (not many video cards support that but)... Since in normal operation it essentially is device that just exports mapping of I/O memory. :->
02:09:26 <ehird> But it's nice to have speed greater than a tortoise.
02:12:55 <ehird> Ilari: I think you'd like that splitting window manager for the linux console I found a while back :-P
02:14:14 <Ilari> Not enough charcters. Fullscreen Xterm is 212 by 76 characters.
02:14:29 <ehird> Ilari: You can have framebuffer consoles.
02:14:39 <ehird> and this was what the "screenshots" given used, I think
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02:37:38 <ehird> Solution for Evince PDF-in-browser with mozplugger displaying the menu: change evince to evince --preview.
02:37:57 <ehird> Kittens and bunnies will fly out of your nose. Also a rainbow.
02:54:28 <ehird> Two downsides of mozplugger+Evince:
02:54:37 <ehird> With preview mode, at least, in Epiphany a new window flashes for a split second.
02:54:59 <ehird> Also, it sucks up all your keybindings so you can't go back or close the window or anything... which *really* sucks.
03:01:00 <ehird> Why oh why do crazy people want a calendar integrated to their email client?
03:01:02 <ehird> Different. things!
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03:36:57 <augur> have you seen the brief intro to the haskell "object" language?
03:37:44 <augur> in attempting to optimize the ghc, the ghc people invented this language beneath haskell
03:37:48 <augur> its a sort of minimalist haskell
03:37:53 <augur> with only like 7 core operations
03:37:57 <augur> and with multi-lambdas
03:38:36 <augur> that genuinely take multiple values as arguments (without returning a lambda to do so) and return multiple values
03:38:47 <augur> and its like impossible to read. lol
03:41:17 <oerjan> is this something new or just the old ghc core or g-machine thing?
03:41:29 <oerjan> i cannot recall anything about multiple _returns_
03:41:39 <augur> its not a multiple return in HASKELL
03:41:45 <augur> but rather in the intermediate language
03:41:59 <oerjan> in the stg-machine, silly
03:42:10 <augur> maybe, i dont know.
03:42:11 <oerjan> i browsed a paper on it once
03:42:14 <augur> i forget what they called this.
03:42:19 <augur> theres a video out recently about it tho
03:42:32 <oerjan> spineless tagless g-machine was the old version at some point
03:42:53 <oerjan> but it's probably been changed to unrecognizability years ago
03:43:48 <augur> <> is the equivalent of () in c-like languages
03:43:54 <augur> its sort of an argument tuple
03:43:56 <augur> but not a data structure.
03:44:01 <augur> so like a lambda of no args is
03:44:24 <augur> a lambda of one arg \<x> -> ...
03:44:31 <augur> and you apply it similarly
03:44:39 <augur> f = \<> -> 5; f <>
03:44:52 <augur> f = \<x> -> 5; f <10>
03:47:30 <augur> and because haskell is lazy
03:47:43 <augur> all haskell function arguments are effectively thunks
03:47:49 <augur> and are implemented thusly
03:48:17 <ehird> i'm pretty sure that is Core.
03:48:22 <augur> so in the intermediate language, something like haskell type Int -> Int would become (<> -> Int) -> (<> -> Int)
03:48:27 <augur> so they have ANOTHER bracketting convention
03:48:30 <ehird> also, are you really educating us on haskell? come on now.
03:48:32 <augur> that <> -> x is just {x}
03:48:42 <augur> so the whole intermediate language is impossible to read
03:49:18 <augur> ~ <(<> -> Int, <> -> Int)>
03:49:44 <augur> ~ just (Int, Int) ? or something.
03:49:59 <augur> or maybe its <{({Int},{Int})}>
03:50:01 <augur> i dont even know man
03:50:07 <pikhq> ehird: Core is much more readable than what he's proposing. Core is nearly a subset of Haskell...
03:50:17 <pikhq> s/proposing/discussing/
03:50:18 <ehird> He's not proposing anything.
03:50:32 <augur> and they do all sorts of weird things like having all functions really be wrappers for these
03:51:06 <augur> f = \x -> \y -> x+y has a lifted version defined f' = \<x,y> -> x+y
03:51:13 <augur> and the normal version defined in terms of it
03:51:33 <augur> f = \x -> \y -> f' <x,y>
03:52:09 <augur> which lets them do all sorts of weird optimizations like any thing you see f 1 2 the compiler just replaces that with the simpler f' 1 2
03:52:42 <augur> the language itself has only like 7 core operations. which is interesting.
03:52:56 <augur> everything else is defined in terms of those
03:53:08 <augur> http://www.vimeo.com/6688091
03:53:09 <ehird> augur: This is almost certainly not GHC's underlying form.
03:53:23 <ehird> GHC compiles to C-- before machine code. C-- is *far* richer in semantics.
03:53:37 <ehird> This lesser-semantic version almost certainly doesn't optimise better.
03:53:39 <ehird> augur: in what version?
03:53:49 <augur> this might be intermediate between GHC and C-- even
03:53:59 <augur> i dont know, just watch the video.
03:54:02 <ehird> Which is also semantically much richer.
03:54:08 <ehird> Does it work without audio?
03:54:30 <ehird> Uh, how long is this thing?
03:54:40 <augur> half an hour maybe?
03:54:41 <ehird> augur: that video is a proposal
03:54:46 <ehird> not something accepted
03:54:49 <ehird> look at the introduction
03:55:09 <augur> im pretty sure he said its what theyre moving towards presently.
03:55:45 <augur> maybe its not fully implemented in the standard builds and such
03:56:05 <augur> thats irrelevant to the point
03:56:12 <augur> this shit is craaaazy
03:56:12 <ehird> and we don't diss her
03:56:16 <ehird> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SNAP
03:56:36 <augur> check out the video tho dude
03:56:59 <ehird> some people are borderline ADHD, so am I
03:57:09 <ehird> except it's the border at the other side
03:57:27 <ehird> i have trouble paying attention to music videos!
03:57:40 <ehird> gimme a text transcript and I might read it in spurts :P
04:09:08 <augur> im off to code, read, then sleep
04:11:46 <ehird> augur's OS is single-tasking.
04:13:15 <ehird> you can't code and irc simultaneously :P
04:13:40 <augur> and extraordinarily tired
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04:50:36 <ehird> Anyone know how to make evince always use continuous mode?
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06:20:07 <ehird> Hey, r.e.s. is wiking again.
06:22:26 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15588
06:22:27 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15696
06:22:32 <ehird> seems Oleg has an attitude problem.
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06:31:56 <ehird> http://www.hungry.com/old-hungry/products/gwp/gwp-screenshot-30-10-1998.png ;; jesus christ
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06:55:40 <ehird> ẞo, Unicode haß had a ußeful character for capitalising ßnakes since 2008: ẞ, capital ß.
06:57:42 <ehird> "From addressing point of view BitBitJump is in the same category as Subleq or any microprocessor assembly language. If I understand correctly, you say that the language is TC given the word size enough (and memory) for an algorithm, but not TC if the memory or the word size is finite. That would be true for any TC language with limited memory. However, to make a language TC, as I mentioned above, you do not need infinite memory inside the abstract machine
06:57:42 <ehird> . The pragmatics of the language (or environment) can be changed so, that it can provide enough external memory to realize a particular algorithm."
06:57:44 <ehird> Argh, the stupid burns.
07:06:04 <ehird> is it just me, or are spreadsheets like an unstructured combination of a mathematical environment and a record-keeping environment, with the former being forced into columns and rows because it wouldn't work otherwise?
07:06:10 <ehird> clearly we need an esoteric spreadsheet
07:06:31 <ehird> all the features are specially tuned to let you use the bizarre equations, and to dissuade all record keeping
07:11:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: ooh, how about circular? then you can have infinite cells
07:11:31 <ehird> covering up the tiny holes
07:11:41 <ehird> zooming spreadsheet interface
07:11:56 <lifthrasiir> and at the end it stores both formula (=code) and data in the one sheet, just like funge
07:12:51 <lifthrasiir> so if i recall correctly someone made excel implementation of funge (or orthogonal, whichever)... right?
07:15:14 <ehird> in funge, you mean?
07:15:29 <ehird> lifthrasiir: an implementation in VBA macros you mean?
07:15:57 <ehird> meh, that's just a visual basic implementation then
07:16:18 <ehird> spreadsheets are quite pure mathematically, but I don't know if they're a very good model for actual things...
07:16:28 <ehird> which is why an esoteric one would be fun
07:17:08 <lifthrasiir> in my opinion spreadsheets are just like RDBMS. there are tasks suitable for RDBMS (and thus spreadsheets) and tasks not suitable for them.
07:17:50 <ehird> you mean they are like RDBMS or they are like RDBMS in their suitability?
07:18:20 <ehird> i don't think they are like RDBMS at all: a spreadsheet is fundamentally a 2-dimensional vector of equations operating on the vector
07:18:25 <lifthrasiir> obviously spreadsheet lacks general JOINability, but that doesn't make much difference
07:18:33 <ehird> and depending on those elements they use
07:18:45 <ehird> RDBMSs are far more static
07:18:50 <ehird> they don't have that dependency-based calculation
07:20:34 <lifthrasiir> ah i don't argue that spreadsheet can be translated to (or back from) RDBMS of course. :)
07:20:42 <ehird> i just don't think they're similar :)
07:21:01 <ehird> i mean as far as a 2d grid of numbers goes, sure, but that's totally not what spreadsheets are about
07:21:03 <lifthrasiir> i just want to point out some similarities.
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07:42:57 <oerjan> stay away from Oleg, i fear some kind of chain reaction...
07:45:05 <ehird> i'm interested now :)
07:45:23 <ehird> i'm not passive-aggressive, I'm just a dick
07:45:58 <ehird> do you know why he reverted those changes (one of them yours), btw?
07:46:02 <ehird> i mean, no edit summary
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> Hey, r.e.s. is wiking again.
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15588
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15696
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> seems Oleg has an attitude problem.
07:51:57 <oerjan> well it's caught up in that whole discussion
07:55:49 <oerjan> it could be made infinite (see my first couple talk page comments) but it would be incompatible with the finite size versions
07:56:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: see current page.
07:56:42 <oerjan> basically without that assembler stuff you cannot possibly make bitsize-insensitive programs
07:56:46 <lifthrasiir> ooh, then it certainly cannot be TC. he seems not understand the concepts...
07:56:57 <oerjan> well not obviously anyway
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08:56:57 <ehird> haven't seen your name around here before
08:57:45 <ehird> presumably for the programming languages and not the magick, considering your channels
08:58:00 <ehird> (the latter of which, contrary to popular opinion, we do not engage in. most of the time.)
08:58:56 <fadeout> well, new to ubuntu linux, not so new to irc, though its been a long time since ive been on
08:59:13 <fadeout> the ubuntu channel got me on here, now im bored and looking for interesting channels
08:59:31 <ehird> heh, how did the ubuntu channel get you here?
09:00:16 <ehird> huh? where do they mention us?
09:00:38 <fadeout> oh, that channel didnt get me to esoteric
09:01:22 <fadeout> i got to this channel via browsing the channel list (which isnt too extensive on this server) and "esoteric" caught my attn. even at this hour most channels are quit
09:01:33 <ehird> we are fine purveyors, yada yada yada, of esoteric programming languages http://esolangs.org/
09:01:35 <ehird> well, some of the time.
09:01:43 <ehird> technically this channel is about everything BUT esolangs.
09:02:11 <ehird> Freenode is a technology server, after all.
09:02:29 <ehird> anyway, ubuntu is good. hi.
09:03:19 <fadeout> esoteric programming, thats a new one for me
09:03:28 <ehird> ever heard of Brainfuck?
09:03:29 <fadeout> though i know esoteric and programming
09:03:45 <ehird> INTERCAL? Unlambda?
09:04:17 <ehird> mwahaha, a virgin. sacrifice ten goats.
09:04:49 <ehird> anyway, the topic (said by a bot) is a pretty good summation of what we aim for in a language. if it's useful, it's probably bad, and if it's weird, it's good. but preferably novel.
09:05:23 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck might help.
09:05:32 <ehird> (being the most popular esolang)
09:07:09 <AnMaster> sigh... no scrollback due to forgetting to quit my irc client at home before going to university today
09:07:16 <ehird> AnMaster: just read the logs.
09:07:30 <AnMaster> ehird, guess what I'm doing? :P
09:07:37 <fadeout> ive just been in conversation with peeps the last few days about career evaluation and how i should have gotten into programming in the first place. What you just said about the summation is right up my alley
09:07:58 <ehird> alas there are no companies yet dedicated to esolangs
09:08:11 <ehird> well fizzie ostensibly got a job based on Befunge, if you stretch reality a lot
09:08:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> well fizzie ostensibly got a job based on Befunge, if you stretch reality a lot <-- huh? I must have missed that
09:09:08 <ehird> the interviewer asked about "Befunge" being listed on his resume and was semi-interested.
09:09:11 <fizzie> ehird: It's just a matter of perspective. If I choose to believe the Befunge-related conversation during the job interview was what got me hired, who's going to say no.
09:09:19 <ehird> ==> Befunge = fizzie job!
09:09:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, well you work at an university, so plausible!
09:09:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, it wasn't this job.
09:09:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: The Befunge job was actually at Nokia.
09:10:06 <ehird> I could go for a mobile with Befunge built in.
09:10:18 <fizzie> "They have so many legacy Befunge systems there, they wanted someone who speaks the language."
09:10:40 <AnMaster> ehird, is that supposed to make sense?
09:11:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I can read it pretty fast and I can tell those doesn't make a lot of sense
09:11:15 <ehird> Yeah, I can't actually code in Befunge.
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09:12:34 <ehird> I wonder where that animation comes from.
09:12:35 * Rugxulo learned some stuff about mmap() despite being *nix-ignorant
09:12:57 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, mmap is quite wonderful IMO
09:13:06 <ehird> Uh, a Compiz thing with the OSD notifications used to fade I think. Maybe.
09:13:10 <Rugxulo> well ... I hear that not all *nixes support it
09:13:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes it is...
09:13:22 <ehird> mmap is pretty much universal
09:13:24 <Rugxulo> also, some *nixes have buggy implementations
09:13:28 <ehird> I have never seen a nix without mmap
09:13:31 <Rugxulo> (that's what I read, anyways)
09:13:36 <ehird> even crufty legacy implementations
09:13:42 <ehird> Rugxulo: sounds like you're reading FUD :)
09:13:54 <Rugxulo> no, just quoting CWS (of CWSDPMI fame)
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09:13:56 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is optional in POSIX.1-2001 but required in POSIX.1-2008
09:14:28 <Rugxulo> anyways, DPMI 1.0 is said to be able to support it, but since that was (is) somewhat rare, nobody bothered
09:14:29 <ehird> Rugxulo: a win/dos person is unlikely to be unbiased about nix stuff
09:14:35 <Rugxulo> even though DPMIONE is freeware now
09:14:38 <AnMaster> but yeah, only DS9K type of *nix tends to lack it
09:14:59 <ehird> someone ought to actually make a DS9K, it doesn't exist
09:15:04 <ehird> just some aspects of some systems
09:15:06 <ehird> not a total system
09:15:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what is DPMI supposed to be?
09:15:27 <ehird> is about as complete as cygwin.
09:16:09 <Rugxulo> DPMI is the DOS-based interface for pmode / selectors / safe API for extended memory etc. (Win16, Win32, OS/2, DOSEMU, CWSDPMI, QDPMI, etc)
09:16:25 <AnMaster> oh right that. But what has it got to do with *nix...
09:16:36 <Rugxulo> mmap() could be supported in DOS/DJGPP via DPMI 1.0
09:16:53 <Rugxulo> but that was too rare (only 386Max) "back in the day", so they never bothered
09:17:01 <Rugxulo> (DPMIONE is basically a freeware 386Max)
09:17:31 <AnMaster> I can't imagine anyone caring these days
09:18:27 <AnMaster> you should go use OS/2 too while you are at it!
09:20:30 * Rugxulo wonders if Cfunge will require AVX soon :-P
09:21:10 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hm? It doesn't require any CPU specific features. It can optionally make use of SSE2, but apart from that it is up to the compiler
09:21:42 <AnMaster> plus my desktop support up to SSE3, my laptop a bit more, but none with AVX
09:21:51 <ehird> AVX isn't even out yet.
09:22:08 <AnMaster> ehird, right, it isn't as if I keep track of that
09:22:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: i was talking to AnMaster
09:22:23 <AnMaster> iirc boch (sp?) implements AVX though
09:23:59 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I even tested cfunge on PPC and SPARC (not recently though, only had access to those temporarily)
09:24:47 <Rugxulo> with Mac OS X dropping PPC support, that's unlikely to get more popular
09:25:10 * Rugxulo recently had very brief access to PPC laptop but it was old (Panther) and had no XCode installed yet
09:25:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and? cfunge has pure C fallbacks for all cpu specific optimised parts.
09:25:46 <AnMaster> also the ppc I have at home is an first model ibook with dead battery and glitchy power connector
09:26:24 <AnMaster> anyway I could put a linux system on nfs and boot that using a cd for loading it
09:26:34 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, OS 9 isn't even close to POSIX
09:27:16 <AnMaster> anyway I booted linux cd on it, shouldn't be impossible to boot a cd and mount root over nfs
09:27:40 <Rugxulo> naive question, but why did you use mmap in the first place? speed?
09:27:42 <AnMaster> macs are supposed to support some other boot over network way, but not PXE iirc
09:27:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, ease of implementation actually
09:28:08 <AnMaster> with read() I had to handle \r\n across a read border
09:28:27 <AnMaster> with mmap I don't have to bother about that
09:29:01 <ehird> os 9 is the worst operating system ever
09:29:16 <ehird> AnMaster: system 7 was wonderful
09:29:23 <ehird> minimal, fast, usable
09:29:40 <ehird> win 3.1 is limited but not annoying
09:29:50 <ehird> it ran fine on the hardware of the time
09:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, OS 9 ran fine on my ibook though
09:30:08 <ehird> yes, win 3.1 sucked
09:30:15 <ehird> but it sucked in a decent way
09:30:33 <ehird> it has a purpose and it fulfils it, it just isn't very ambitious and is a bit too minimal
09:30:39 <Rugxulo> well, okay, it wasn't the worst ever, but it was fairly unstable and most apps were just either too ambitious, buggy, etc.
09:30:44 <ehird> it isn't very much fun to program for, and it's quite unstable
09:30:54 <ehird> but in day-to-day usage it works fine for the time
09:31:04 <ehird> so yeah, OS 9 is worse than all of those
09:31:09 <ehird> AnMaster: "for the time"
09:31:29 <ehird> well, OS 8 was just a revision of System 7 making it more unstable and buggy, but not enough to kill it
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09:31:42 <ehird> OS 8.5, the major release, was just the prelude to the ultimate suckiness of OS 9
09:32:06 <ehird> OS 9 would be half annoying if it wasn't so colossally slow
09:32:12 <AnMaster> ehird, what about system 6 then=
09:32:28 <ehird> system 6 was, uhh, typical black-on-white mac system
09:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, also os 9 wasn't slow on that 300 MHz ibook. Maybe you used it on very old hardware?
09:32:47 <ehird> no real hope programming on it or anything, but it's great at word processing and editing images I guess?
09:32:52 <ehird> you know, desktop publishing, the original point of the mac
09:33:25 <ehird> AnMaster: It had a G3 expansion card, something like 90MiB of RAM (a bit meagre, but come on! I was browsing the filesystem and it was slow) and a 1GB Quantum Fireball disk
09:33:45 <ehird> it'd be more understandable without the G3, but it has the G3
09:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it was fine on 64 MB ram, 300 MHz G3. The 3.2 GB harddrive was a bit small though
09:34:06 <ehird> really slow for me.
09:34:13 <AnMaster> also upgrade boards aren't really that good
09:34:28 <ehird> yes, but the G3 was a major improvement over the predecessors.
09:34:31 <AnMaster> I mean, stuff like IO buses and such
09:34:35 <ehird> 90MiB is enough to run the kernel and Finder
09:34:43 <ehird> I mean, it was slow expanding small directories
09:34:49 <ehird> That isn't the slow you get from being bottlenecked by an IO bus
09:35:50 <AnMaster> if you called OS 9 unstable I would however agree
09:36:07 <AnMaster> of course, it could be any app that crashed it
09:36:08 <ehird> well, Finder may have been *acceptable*
09:36:11 <ehird> but try web browsing
09:36:31 <ehird> it worked perfectly, except for being CRIPPLINGLY SLOW in both UI and rendering (I mean like upwards of a minute to render a google page) in every browser I tried
09:36:46 <fizzie> Try web browsing with the Performa, where moving the mouse around makes download speeds drop dramatically.
09:36:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but also sharware iirc
09:37:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't care, everything on Mac OS was shareware
09:37:08 <ehird> Even Stuffit Expander
09:37:37 <AnMaster> ehird, shareware that refused to work at all one month after release date or something like that
09:37:43 <AnMaster> so you had to download the last version
09:39:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think on the ibook download speed dropped when you had the mouse button down. but not when just moving it
09:39:23 <AnMaster> not that it was able to max my connection even over ethernet
09:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, cooperative multitasking too
09:39:43 <fizzie> Oh, I got pretty much modem speeds over the Ethernet. :p
09:39:43 <ehird> 1MB internet, or crazy Swedish >10MB net speeds?
09:39:48 <ehird> 1MB Ethernet, or crazy Swedish >10MB net speeds?
09:40:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, more like 80 kbps, while I can get 720-780 kbps on my desktop
09:40:31 <AnMaster> local over lan I don't remember
09:40:51 <AnMaster> ehird, unknown which the mac used. But on desktop yes
09:41:24 <ehird> No. The term is kibibytes.
09:41:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't care what you think about that
09:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, as you are mixing up bits and bytes anyway
09:42:14 <ehird> A "kilobit" would be 1000 bits.
09:42:19 <ehird> That is how the terminology works.
09:42:31 <fizzie> The Ethernet speeds are non-binary millions, though; I really think using the powers-of-10 prefixes in "Xbps" makes sense, since that's what they use there.
09:42:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't care what your opinion on this is
09:42:35 <ehird> Furthermore, "kibibyte" is the official standard; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibibyte.
09:42:49 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobit notes no standardisation.
09:43:04 <ehird> Therefore "kilobit" is not only illogical (would seem to mean 1000 bits), it's non-standard.
09:43:26 <fizzie> ehird: Don't you start with "official standard" when you use a nonstandard "kiB" instead of the standard "KiB". :p
09:43:32 <ehird> fizzie: I am considering that.
09:43:59 <ehird> AnMaster: why would you call it my opinion, anyway? I never called it my opinion.
09:44:00 <fizzie> Logic vs. standard: the battle.
09:44:14 <ehird> I called it wrong and provided two reasons for it being so.
09:44:26 <AnMaster> anyway, point is my old mac was able to max out my slow 512 kilobit per second ADSL, but not my current 8 megabit per second
09:44:42 <AnMaster> and I have no clue if that is 1000 or 1024
09:44:53 <AnMaster> but in general I use kilo for 1024 myself
09:44:55 <fizzie> "the decimal definition (1 kilobit per second = 1,000 bits per second) is used uniformly in the context of telecommunication transmission speeds"
09:45:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, right. anything to annoy ehird though
09:45:47 <ehird> I find people committing suicide by bludgeoning their head against a wall repeatedly very annoying.
09:46:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Then you're going to have to start talking about your 500 kbps and 7.8125 Mbps ADSL links.
09:46:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is theoretical speed. What I actually talk about is the speed that wget reports for good mirrors
09:46:56 <ehird> Stop bringing logic into this. Also standardisation. AnMaster won't use any of those pesky things.
09:47:00 <AnMaster> which is currently around 760 KB/s at best
09:47:14 <fizzie> Anyway, with the Performa the bus multiplexing thing was more of a problem; c.f. the http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml numbered list, point 3.
09:47:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I know about that *shudder*
09:47:53 <fizzie> The Ethernet card I had was in the comm slot, I think.
09:48:07 <AnMaster> ah ibook had of course built in ethernet
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09:48:16 <fizzie> "A comm slot modem disables the modem port; a comm slot ethernet card disables the printer port."
09:48:25 <fizzie> Really, that thing is so messed-up.
09:48:39 <AnMaster> didn't remember it was quite that bad
09:48:56 <fizzie> Yet I still can't not like it.
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09:49:56 <fizzie> It's somehow so endearing. Poor little Performa.
09:54:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, the modem port... was it one of those softmodems?
09:54:55 <AnMaster> forgot the name... geosomething
09:55:36 <fizzie> No, I sold it. And it wasn't a geoport; I think the "modem port" is referring to the serial port it had, which was a very old-fashioned no-hardware-handshaking no-frills rs232 thing.
09:55:48 <fizzie> Could be wrong, though.
09:55:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, but with a round shape right?
09:56:20 <AnMaster> I remember a performa that had a serial port but with a round connector
09:56:27 <AnMaster> rather than the usual PC serial port connector
09:57:00 <fizzie> Yes. The pins are compatible to the rs232 standard, I think, it's just the connector that's different.
09:58:12 <fizzie> http://static.arstechnica.com/watson-karmic-20090909-3.png makes one want to get a SSD; it shows a Ubuntu Karmic Koala alpha version booting in five seconds on such a system.
09:58:53 <AnMaster> bbl, need to relocate myself, so will probably lose connection to bouncer and thus anything said since then. Due to forgetting to quit client at home before I left.
09:58:54 <ehird> SSDs are like awesome. For your computer.
09:59:15 <ehird> Also, that's some serious multitasking.
09:59:35 <ehird> fizzie: the goal for 10.04 is a 10-second boot, iirc, so that must come to like 3 seconds on an SSD...
09:59:59 <fizzie> It's that "upstart" parallelisizer thing, they claim Karmic's going to start using it really-for-real-now.
10:00:13 <AnMaster> wait, that pic shows xulrunner during book? Huh
10:00:28 <ehird> That's starting Firefox, I think.
10:00:33 <ehird> Or at least some browsery thing.
10:00:38 <ehird> Looks like we're also getting couchdb.
10:00:52 <ehird> Oh, couchdb might be for Firefox.
10:00:58 <ehird> XULRunner might be for couchdb.
10:01:09 <ehird> CouchDB is written in Erlang.
10:01:14 <fizzie> Xorg starts there somewhere around 2-3 seconds.
10:01:37 <ehird> 9.10 will be great, but I think that 10.04 will see a lot of big changes...
10:01:58 <ehird> Then 10.10 will come to polish them off. So I think the alliterative release will be when Ubuntu notches up the awesome a whole bunch.
10:02:37 <ehird> We won't have one of those again until 2104.
10:02:45 <ehird> Well, assuming they don't change the schedule before then. :P
10:02:56 <ehird> Say, I wonder why 6.06 wasn't in the 4/10 pattern.
10:03:08 <ehird> Ah. Behind schedule.
10:03:16 <fizzie> This is just a guess, but they just might change it at some point during the next hundred years.
10:03:39 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Ubuntu-desktop-2-410-20080706.png
10:03:44 <ehird> 4.10 sure was brown.
10:04:11 <ehird> The Karmic announcement mentioned considering a total new look and that "brown has served us well".
10:04:20 <ehird> Well, that's obviously not happening, but I wonder if 10.04 might bring that.
10:04:26 <ehird> I wonder what they've thought of. Please let it not be a dark theme.
10:05:03 <fizzie> I'm not surprised that they've went a bit orange from that... what should I call it, "turd-brown" maybe.
10:05:19 <ehird> My turds are... not that colour.
10:05:44 <ehird> But yes, it is a bit orangey.
10:05:57 <fizzie> Unicorn turds look like rainbows.
10:06:18 <ehird> Actually, I hope they go for a unified titlebar/toolbar look.
10:06:28 <ehird> I kinda miss that from OS X, though it's pretty hard to do in GTK.
10:06:48 <ehird> The Unity theme for Metacity and GTK handles it by making the window title the same colour as the whole window, which kinda sucks.
10:07:03 <ehird> Mainly I just wish they'd antialiase the window corners.
10:10:04 <AnMaster> 02:01:58 <ehird> Then 10.10 will come to polish them off. So I think the alliterative release will be when Ubuntu notches up the awesome a whole bunch.
10:10:15 <AnMaster> you mean like all release so far?
10:11:12 <fizzie> "Replacement of Synaptic and other package management-related applications by Ubuntu Software Store is intended to take place in [Lucid Lynx]."
10:11:52 <ehird> Also, what about it?
10:11:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also, what do you mean about release/name?
10:12:03 <ehird> It's 10, 10. Alliterative.
10:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, "hardy h<whatever>" kind of stuff
10:13:08 <ehird> There was no 4.04, so this'll be the first alliterative release.
10:13:31 <ehird> fizzie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore
10:13:32 <fizzie> Synaptic is pretty awful, yes; and the fact that there's N graphical package-related things (Synaptic, that add/remove thing, the update manager thing, ...) is quite sucky too. I don't mind a little sensiblization.
10:13:37 <ehird> Includes mockups and stuff.
10:13:49 <ehird> Add/Remove is for installing and removing applications, Synaptic is for managing packages.
10:13:56 <ehird> So there's a semi-sensible divide there.
10:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the jaunty jackelope or whatever it was called also alliterative?
10:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, all release names are.
10:14:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, I thought you were referring to that
10:14:21 <ehird> I hope this new Store stuff is all based on PackageKit, which is yummy.
10:14:22 <fizzie> The name sounds very modern, all mobile things have an "App Store" nowadays, so why not Ubuntu too.
10:15:30 <ehird> I'm not sure Store is the best word; I'd expect more a for-pay Canonical-partners thing, which would be lame.
10:15:50 <ehird> I'm sure the meaning was store as in storage-place, or store ala stall, but still.
10:16:01 <ehird> It's definitely confusing..
10:16:31 <AnMaster> sv:stall is en:stable, so I first read that as "package stable"
10:16:43 <ehird> The implication is, like, a tiny little store, one-man sort of thing.
10:16:53 <ehird> Hey, my Ubuntu just went "war".
10:17:04 <ehird> Like, light pitch.
10:17:05 <AnMaster> well en:stall is a technical flight term for "not going fast enough to keep flying"
10:17:32 <AnMaster> ehird, your harddrive breaking down maybe
10:17:41 <ehird> No, it's from Ubuntu.
10:17:47 * ehird plays the Sounds to see which it was.
10:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it goes away if you turn off sounds?
10:18:08 <ehird> Not in there. Oh well, it only did it twice.
10:18:18 <ehird> "This is a living specification for the utility previously codenamed AppCenter."
10:18:22 <ehird> What a terrible rename.
10:18:26 <fizzie> Well, the SoftwareStore wiki page has renamed categories into "Departments", such as you would find from a physical store; I guess they're driving for that sort of metaphor. Except you only shoplift and never pay. (Well, the word "shoplift" surprisingly isn't mentioned there.)
10:18:30 <ehird> I'd rename it to Application Centre.
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10:18:42 <ehird> Created: 2005-08-29 by MatthewPaulThomas"
10:18:54 <ehird> fizzie: Copying ain't stealing!
10:19:04 <ehird> Overly metaphoric fail.
10:19:17 <ehird> [[In application menus etc, the Store should appear as Ubuntu Software Store.]]
10:19:22 <ehird> Why put "Ubuntu" there?
10:19:24 <ehird> We know it's Ubuntu.
10:19:27 <AnMaster> "get free software" and "store"
10:19:39 <fizzie> There was a wonderful pamphlet given out in a hotel in Tallinn; the title was "Estonian police gives advice on pocket-picking".
10:19:58 <ehird> I sure hope Matthew Paul Thomas didn't write this whole thing as-is without it being mangled; his usability work is spot-on and he's done some great stuff for Canonical, but this is just terrible.
10:20:03 <fizzie> Then there were illustrated techniques and best places and so on for pocket-picking.
10:20:31 <AnMaster> ehird, notice start menu on a windows pc? Says "microsoft word" "microsoft visual studio" and so on
10:20:34 <ehird> One day, the kernel will merge with KDE.
10:20:40 <AnMaster> so why not "ubuntu" there on ubuntu
10:20:44 <ehird> Finally, kthreadd and kwrite can live together in happiness!
10:20:56 <AnMaster> the analogy has some flaws yes
10:21:04 <ehird> Anyway, the Software Store seems like an improvement in all areas but terminology.
10:21:14 <ehird> Where it's a massive regression.
10:21:33 <ehird> What's your point?
10:22:33 <AnMaster> that there is always apt-get around. for those who know how to use command line it is superior most of the time
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10:23:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I disagree strongly.
10:24:24 <ehird> apt-get install does not integrate discovering new programs with installing them afterwards, it does not give me helpful descriptions of packages laid out in a way tailored for quick comprehension, ...
10:24:32 <ehird> It simply has no advantages.
10:29:06 <ehird> Wow, AnMaster agrees with me on the topic of usability.
10:29:11 <ehird> Now *that* IS unprecedented.
10:29:13 <AnMaster> for when you know what you need however it is superior
10:29:28 <AnMaster> lets say you are running configure and it complains about missing libfoo headers
10:29:38 <ehird> Yes, if you are in a terminal, obviously it is superior.
10:29:41 <AnMaster> then sudo apt-get install libfoo<tab> works
10:30:05 <AnMaster> sometimes it is just -dev at the end, sometimes it is versioned like libfoo-1 and libfoo-2
10:30:22 <AnMaster> in a few cases it is something like foo-dev instead
10:30:36 <ehird> But outside of a terminal, "sudo apt-get install foopackage<ENTER>y<ENTER>" vs "foopackage<mouse><check><mouse><apply>" are pretty much equal.
10:30:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and I almost always have a terminal open
10:30:47 <ehird> And the graphical one probably has a nicer progress bar.
10:30:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but if you don't know the exact name...
10:31:12 <ehird> When running shell commands, apt-get wins. When you just want to install something you read about, or when you want to find a program, graphical wins.
10:31:22 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but you would need to search in your GUI package manager too
10:31:23 <ehird> Not with Synaptic, though, since that's just a bag of hurt.
10:31:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but the results are actually readable, as opposed to apt-cache search/apt-cache show.
10:31:44 <ehird> (And apt-cache's search doesn't even work well at all...)
10:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, that would need a better CLI frontend
10:32:19 <ehird> It's kind of hard to do things like make the package descriptions on a new line and more subtle when you can't change the font size.
10:32:20 <AnMaster> I'm considering coding a simple wrapper script to format and colourise the output. Output would end up similar to eix output
10:32:49 <ehird> Like in a terminal.
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10:32:53 <ehird> Also kinda hard to bring up the extended description of a package in the middle of a scrollthrough if you have no clicking or anything.
10:33:08 <AnMaster> anyway, search would be regex based, again similar to eix.
10:33:22 <AnMaster> where you can search on any metadata that exists
10:33:34 <ehird> Who searches with regex? I mostly do things like "wine dev" and "libfoo*".
10:33:41 <ehird> The former is a pain with regex, the latter is slightly more verbose with regex.
10:33:45 <ehird> I've never really used anything more.
10:33:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I search with regex a lot
10:34:11 <AnMaster> and you can do fuzzy match search and what not too with eix
10:34:22 <ehird> Example regex-requiring search?
10:35:14 <ehird> Barely any false positives.
10:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, would match foo-modebar too
10:35:25 <ehird> Yeah, but how common is that?
10:35:32 <ehird> Anyway, do "wine dev" as a regex.
10:35:41 <ehird> It matches foowinebardev, devwine, winedev, wine--dev, ...
10:36:05 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway wildcard is about as hard as regex to write but you have to remember to exclude the . in front of * as well
10:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what you want to match with wine dev?
10:36:25 <ehird> Uh, only if you've been bludgeoned with a Koala and think of regex every second of the day.
10:36:29 <AnMaster> and as I said, eix provides other searches too
10:36:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Wine and dev in any position, order and amount.
10:36:39 <ehird> Good luck, it'll be verbose as fuck.
10:38:14 <ehird> Great, your wonderful regex searches can't do the most basic of operations related to FINDING A PACKAGE.
10:38:16 <AnMaster> see above, eix supports more than regex. Just regex is default.
10:38:27 <ehird> Yes, but you're touting regex search as amazingly awesome.
10:38:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and they are, of course for some type of searching other variants will be better
10:38:54 <ehird> Yes, like the most common type.
10:39:17 <ehird> Your "searches" depend on almost exactly knowing what kind of damn package you want.
10:39:22 <ehird> I want the WINE development stuff.
10:39:31 <AnMaster> most of the time I'm looking for some specific package name
10:39:34 <ehird> "wine dev". What else am I to type, what expression is more natural, obvious or quicker?
10:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you're not "searching".
10:40:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I'm searching for what exactly the package is. gtk or libgtk?
10:40:12 <AnMaster> or even likgtk++ or libgtk-2.0
10:40:47 <AnMaster> and here the current search facility on ubuntu are kind of crap in the GUI tool
10:41:04 <AnMaster> they tend to give lots of unrelated gtk stuff, where gtk is in description
10:41:13 <AnMaster> and the one I want is far below
10:42:14 <AnMaster> while looking for ^libgtk and if that fails gtk in _package name only_ still may find some unrelated packages, but far fewer
10:43:22 <AnMaster> apt-cache search --names-only ^libgtk
10:43:54 <AnMaster> (on gentoo it is actually named gtk++ iirc)
10:44:02 <AnMaster> (still, fairly reasonable second guess)
10:44:28 <ehird> gtk++? It's not gtk++.
10:45:04 <ehird> Hey, it looks like the T60p has the same graphics card as this machine, the X1600, except BIOS-modded for CAD/3D pro apps sort of thing.
10:45:13 <ehird> Downside: drivers.
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10:45:30 <AnMaster> ehird, stop pressing whatever key combo you used there
10:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, why would you end up pressing that
10:46:00 <ehird> to close a tab that i failed to alt-tab to because of light prsesing
10:46:35 <ehird> alt-tab to firefox, ctrl-w to close.
10:47:05 <fizzie> In this particular case "apt-cache search ^libgtk" is likely to find only what you want; there aren't that many packages whose descriptions would start with "libgtk".
10:47:26 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/10908.jpg
10:47:34 <ehird> That windows key there sure is small.
10:47:35 <AnMaster> ehird, if you use znc you can set a channel to sticky to make it auto rejoin your client on part and never forward the part to the server
10:47:51 <ehird> The downside of adding a windows key...
10:48:08 <ehird> I wonder what the FlexView screen on the 15" is; IPS?
10:48:17 <fizzie> This channel is inherently sticky, hurr hurr.
10:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: why? I like to be able to part easily
10:48:38 <ehird> Yep, Flexview is IPS.
10:48:46 <ehird> My notebook could have an IPS screen!
10:49:03 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I keep pressing Fn instead of ctrl on the notebook
10:50:23 <ehird> The left one, then.
10:50:29 <ehird> And use the right one. Oh, there is none.
10:51:25 <AnMaster> but that is next to arrow keys
10:52:35 <AnMaster> ehird, space, altgr, menu, ctrl, arrow keys
10:53:01 <ehird> pry left fn key off so no typos, use right :P
10:53:44 <ehird> AnMaster: 15" 1600x1200 IPS laptop screen y/n
10:53:55 <AnMaster> anyway fn can't really be remapped, it is "special" in BIOS or something, stuff like Fn-PgUp doesn't ever reach the OS. And it works even before OS is booted
10:54:11 <AnMaster> some Fn combos reach the OS though
10:55:08 <ehird> Heh, 1600x1200 is actually more pixels than I have now.
10:55:24 <ehird> Giving up 80 pixels horizontally for 150 pixels vertically? Sign me up.
10:55:26 <ehird> Anyway, I said y/n.
10:56:22 <ehird> To install it, please run:
10:56:26 <ehird> sudo yum install yay
10:56:58 <ehird> I promise I'm over 18
10:57:48 <ehird> I promise I'm under 20
10:57:53 <fizzie> Someone's mangled that message here to say "ask your administrator". (Or at least I've seen the sudo variant earlier.)
10:57:54 <fizzie> The program 'mc' is currently not installed. To run 'mc' please ask your administrator to install the package 'mc'
10:58:08 <ehird> In Debian or Ubuntu?
10:58:16 <ehird> Systems going for halt...
10:58:19 <ehird> Killing all processes...
10:58:20 <AnMaster> # wait, god wouldn't need to su
10:58:23 <ehird> Killing pesky processes...
10:58:31 <ehird> **UPS FATAL INTERRUPTION**
10:58:42 <ehird> coreboot version FreeAsInRMS
10:58:55 <ehird> root login: autologin
10:59:35 <ehird> # I'm not planning on anyone hacking my brain
10:59:52 <ehird> # It's sort of nice to wake up after being unconscious
11:00:07 <ehird> rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0
11:00:22 <AnMaster> # ok that is fail, /proc claims not to be mounted itself
11:00:35 <ehird> # It's a magical rootfs.
11:00:40 <fizzie> Oh, it's the default message, it just checks sudoers.
11:00:42 <fizzie> if posix.geteuid() == 0:
11:00:42 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, _("You can install it by typing:")
11:00:42 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, "apt-get install %s" % packages[0][0]
11:00:42 <fizzie> elif self.user_can_sudo:
11:00:44 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, _("You can install it by typing:")
11:00:44 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, "sudo apt-get install %s" % packages[0][0]
11:00:47 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, _("To run '%(command)s' please ask your administrator to install the package '%(package)s'") % {'command': command, 'package': packages[0][0]}
11:00:49 <ehird> # Uniponies indeed.
11:01:01 <ehird> # It's Linux 2.7, circa 2175.
11:09:27 <ehird> Hmm, 1600x1200 @ 15" is 133 PPI, which is rather worryingly dense.
11:12:30 <fizzie> There's a "dense" joke begging to be made there.
11:13:59 <AnMaster> ehird, why the term ppi rather than dpi?
11:15:41 <fizzie> "Pixels" is more descriptive than "dots", though.
11:16:54 <fizzie> DPI has some vague print-related connotations.
11:17:01 <fizzie> Dots on a paper and all.
11:18:54 <fizzie> OpenMoko screen is 282 PPI, that's pretty intdense. (Intensely dense, you grok?)
11:20:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh read it as "points" not "pixels"
11:21:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, as opposed to floatdense?
11:22:24 <fizzie> Yes, that would be too dense.
11:23:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, signed or unsigned denseness?
11:24:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to interpret a negative pixel density value.
11:25:37 <AnMaster> I wonder if unicode as special symbols for the outlined R. As in R meaning real numbers
11:25:47 <AnMaster> I wouldn't be surprised if it had
11:26:42 <fizzie> Yes. Well, not with the +.
11:27:17 <fizzie> But at least ℕ, ℙ, ℚ, ℝ and ℤ.
11:28:01 <fizzie> There's also similarly double-struck pi and gamma (both small and capital), and double-struck italic D, d, e, i, j.
11:28:43 <fizzie> There's a subscript and superscript +.
11:28:56 <AnMaster> oh nice. Looks like a blur at this size though
11:29:05 <AnMaster> unless I'm really close to display
11:30:09 <fizzie> There's also a double-struck H, ℍ.
11:31:56 <fizzie> Quaternions, at least.
11:33:15 <fizzie> Not quite sure what ℙ would commonly be used for; the others (ℕ, ℤ, ℚ, ℝ and ℂ) are those well-known sets.
11:33:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I know of them of course
11:34:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: e is often the Neper e, and i, j both are used for the imaginary unit.
11:34:44 <fizzie> And D, d for differential.
11:34:47 <Deewiant> Yes, of course, but double-struck?
11:34:56 <fizzie> Yes, double-struck and italic.
11:35:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Electric engineers seem to have a habit for using j.
11:35:32 <Deewiant> I've never seen those double-struck, but if you say so.
11:35:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, any reason except to cause confusion?
11:36:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think Mathematica uses the double-struck e.
11:36:19 <Deewiant> Yes, Mathematica uses them, but I always just thought it was on crack. :-P
11:36:45 <fizzie> Yes, well, I haven't seen them anywhere else either. :p
11:37:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's to avoid confusion with i(t), electrical current.
11:37:22 <fizzie> Yes, what Deewiant said.
11:37:37 <Deewiant> Although why they can't write I(t) is beyond me.
11:37:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could be confused with 1?
11:38:19 <fizzie> And I use 'j' in MATLAB because I like 'i' as a loop variable.
11:38:20 <Deewiant> Maybe, though I think that's lame. :-P
11:38:24 <AnMaster> for example, until I learned about abs(), the 1 I wrote were just straight lines
11:39:05 <Deewiant> I've always written them with that serif at the top
11:39:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's that convention re the casedness.
11:40:13 <fizzie> "All of these symbols are expressed using capital letters, except in cases where a quantity (especially voltage or current) is described in terms of a brief period of time (called an "instantaneous" value). For example, the voltage of a battery, which is stable over a long period of time, will be symbolized with a capital letter "E," while the voltage peak of a lightning strike at the very instant it hits a power line would most likely be symbolized with a
11:40:13 <fizzie> lower-case letter "e" (or lower-case "v") to designate that value as being at a single moment in time. This same lower-case convention holds true for current as well, the lower-case letter "i" representing current at some instant in time. Most direct-current (DC) measurements, however, being stable over time, will be symbolized with capital letters. "
11:40:14 <Deewiant> I'd rather have something legible than fast
11:40:20 <AnMaster> bbl for a few hours. course begins soon
11:41:07 <Deewiant> I might abuse the differential syntax and call it dI(t), then.
11:41:28 <fizzie> That's the rate of change of I, though, not the instantaneous value of it.
11:41:42 <fizzie> Or at least that's what it'd look like.
11:42:45 <Deewiant> I dunno, in all seriousness I'd probably call it all I(t) by default regardless of whether it's a peak or not.
11:43:03 <fizzie> Yes, probably, but it's a bit too late now.
11:44:48 <fizzie> Oh, Python uses j too?
11:45:02 <fizzie> imagnumber ::= (floatnumber | intpart) ("j" | "J")
11:47:26 <fizzie> <complex.h> in C99 #defines 'I' for it.
11:49:18 <fizzie> More exactly, I expands either to _Imaginary_I or _Complex_I, depending on whether the first one is defined or not; it's optional, unlike _Complex_I. (Both are macros that expand to "a such-and-such constant expression".)
11:49:57 <fizzie> In my case "I" -> "_Complex_I" -> "(__extension__ 1.0iF)".
11:52:32 <fizzie> Oh, right, ℙ is "of course" the set of prime numbers.
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12:13:47 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, why the term ppi rather than dpi?
12:16:02 <ehird> But yeah, 133 might be just a bit too much.
12:17:02 <ehird> I mean, I like my pixels, but with bitmaps and stuff being so common, something not too far to the-dpi-that-96-is-from-a-chair-looking-at-a-monitor-remapped-to-being-closer-due-to-being-a-notebook is best.
12:17:29 <ehird> "LinuxCon 2009 Linux creator Linus Torvalds says the open source kernel has become "bloated and huge," with no midriff-slimming diet plan in sight."
12:19:12 <fizzie> ""Okay, so the summary of this is that you expect that 12 per cent to be back to where it should be next year, and you expect someone else to come up with a plan to do it," joked Bottomley. "That's open source.""
12:21:11 <ehird> Man, the T60p seems like the bset notebook ever.
12:21:36 <ehird> Think I want me one of those. Looks like they were super-expensive when they came out, though; hope that's improved.
12:22:53 <ehird> Although there's still that pesky driver problem, it having essentially the same card as this machine.
12:23:31 <ehird> radeon/ati is so fucking ridiculously slow, new fglrx (the only version working with this X11 version) doesn't support it, and radeonhd doesn't even work
12:23:44 <ehird> Presumably because the X1600 isn't a Radeon HD
12:23:58 <ehird> Hmm, no; it's supposedly supported, but it doesn't work.
12:24:11 <ehird> The situation here is pretty awful so that's worrying.
12:29:15 <fizzie> Radeonhd has never worked for me; isn't it pretty experimental still.
12:29:50 <ehird> Yeah, but I tried it just because jeez radeon is crap.
12:30:05 <ehird> I'd be perfectly happy if fglrx hadn't fucking dropped support for this popular circa-2006 card.
12:35:04 <ehird> (There's also the issue of where the hell am I gonna get this...)
12:47:49 <ehird> I should probably learn Vala and hack on that GNOME IRC client.
12:48:01 <ehird> Or I could elaborate on the esoteric spreadsheet idea, which is easier.
12:52:00 <ehird> "Running Mobile Mark 2005, the T60p managed an impressive five hours 20 minutes of battery life, compared to three hours 41 minutes on the Acer. DVD playback was also good with a time of four hours 20 minutes - enough time to watch a Lord of the Rings special edition if you wished."
12:52:35 <ehird> so let's say +1.5hr ultrabay = 6h50m and 5h50m
12:54:09 <ehird> yikes. response time on the flexview is 30ms
13:30:38 <ehird> Hey, apparently after Lucid Lynx Ubuntu's switching to GNOME 3.
13:34:32 <ehird> "Have you become twisted hacks?" - El Reg commnt
13:41:13 <fizzie> I think I like the Mystic Meerkat 10.10 name suggestion.
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13:42:18 <ehird> fizzie: Umm, don't you read Linus flamebait and reddit comments? We know what 10.10 will be called
13:42:22 <ehird> Masturbating Monkey
13:44:04 <fizzie> "Image results for 'masturbating monkey'" -- in this particular instance, I'm not sure I appreciate Google's desire to be helpful.
13:44:22 <ehird> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950
13:45:09 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6s1p7/linus_called_openbsd_developers_what/
13:47:00 <fizzie> "You call your penis 'Verizon calculator?'"
13:48:31 <FireFly> http://etc.firefly.nu/css/quine.html <-- :D
13:48:43 <ehird> FireFly: beautiful
13:48:58 <ehird> http://browserbookapp.sourceforge.net/topaz/ ;; holy fuck! Someone has basically *exactly* the same ideas as me for computing.
13:52:35 <fizzie> http://www.coinflation.com/about.html -- "How would you use [the word coinflation] in a sentence? -- My wife uses the word in a sentence all the time, 'Quit working on your stupid coinflation website and let's go out for Chinese food.'"
13:58:25 <deschutron> I've come up with some Snusp-related stuff, and I'd like to put it online, and I'm not sure how to go about it
13:58:43 <deschutron> I've come up with about 5 extensions to the language
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13:59:08 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/
13:59:13 <ehird> make a new page, link to SNUSP, go wild
13:59:15 <deschutron> and a way to specify inside a snusp program what set of features to use
13:59:33 <ehird> seems like it'd be easier to have an interpreter switch
13:59:38 <deschutron> i was wondering whether to make a new page or add the the SNUSP one
14:00:22 <deschutron> some people might want lots of language features, others might want to restrict what the language can do
14:01:53 <deschutron> for example, you can have numeric literals, but some people might prefer to use plusses and loops to get their numbers because the instructions set is minimalistic that way
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14:55:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> I mean, I like my pixels, but with bitmaps and stuff being so common, something not too far to the-dpi-that-96-is-from-a-chair-looking-at-a-monitor-remapped-to-being-closer-due-to-being-a-notebook is best. <-- there are svg icon sets and such iirc
14:55:37 <ehird> yeah, but think about the web
14:55:44 <ehird> (Gnome uses SVG icons pretty much everywhere)
14:56:46 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that explains why they look so smooth
14:56:50 <ehird> I mean, 133 PPI is quite a lot.
14:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I think KDE 4 does too.
14:57:02 <ehird> But it was like that when they were pngs too, I think. Maybe.
14:57:09 <ehird> .svg icons are clearly The Right Thing, though.
14:57:20 <AnMaster> I really like the less smooth look of classical bitmap based icon sets
14:57:38 <AnMaster> more natural looking sometimes
14:57:55 <ehird> Pixel art looks cute at first, but I find that looking at such icons I just see the jagged edges and highly-contrasted borders and miss the icon.
14:58:15 <ehird> AnMaster: But fwiw, the Tango icon standards (which is obeyed pretty wildly Gnomeways) pretty much say "Don't make it shiny, stupid!".
14:58:23 <ehird> KDE 3 is really, terribly bad at that
14:58:29 <ehird> Everything shines and is cartoony
14:58:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> I should probably learn Vala and hack on that GNOME IRC client. <-- Vala?
14:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Vala is sort of like C#, made minimalist and cleaned up, and made to work with GObject.
14:59:21 <ehird> Basically, it's GObject the language.
14:59:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> yikes. response time on the flexview is 30ms <-- sounds high. What is this flexview?
14:59:43 <ehird> i.e., write native-code GNOME software without extra dependencies or a runtime, and free yourself from the awful GObject C calls.
14:59:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Flexview is the IPS (because it has a wide viewing angle).
15:00:08 <ehird> The newer ThinkPad displays are like 16ms and some older ones 25ms.
15:00:11 <ehird> So they're all quite slow.
15:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, nothing you usually notice
15:01:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well, thinkpads aren't really for gamers I'd say
15:01:01 <ehird> 30ms is 33Hz, if I'm calculating that right.
15:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't matter what the target market is; the T60p has a decent graphics card, an excellent CPU and you can bash a load of RAM in there.
15:02:02 <ehird> Well, that's optional.
15:02:08 <ehird> AnMaster: The graphics card is the pro version, tuned for CAD etc.
15:02:22 <ehird> "Mobile workstation" (except it's thin, light and has good battery life)
15:02:26 <ehird> Anyway, with the Flexview I'm capped to 33fps, which is ridiculous.
15:02:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Pixel art looks cute at first, but I find that looking at such icons I just see the jagged edges and highly-contrasted borders and miss the icon. <-- only if upscaled. After all svg will be rendered to such pixels too
15:02:39 <ehird> No, svg generally antialiases
15:02:48 <ehird> More recent ThinkPads can do 66fps, which is hunky dory.
15:02:51 <AnMaster> and nothing prevents antialias in pixel icons
15:02:58 <ehird> Slightly lesser-looking models can manage 40fps, which is fine.
15:03:06 <ehird> "I really like the less smooth look of classical bitmap based icon sets"
15:03:10 <ehird> I was responding to that
15:03:20 <AnMaster> ehird, latency doesn't come out as FPS does it?
15:03:25 <ehird> Anyway, I'm not sure I can accept 33fps, even if it should work quite well outside.
15:03:30 <AnMaster> I mean, latency could be high FPS, just delayed a bit
15:03:31 <ehird> AnMaster: 1 second / foo ms = fps
15:03:45 <ehird> Response time = how long a pixel takes to change from colour one to colour two.
15:03:48 <AnMaster> it's like bandwidth vs. latency
15:03:54 <ehird> No, it's not, you're talking crap.
15:04:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is latency on top of that too
15:04:09 <AnMaster> as in, processing time for gpu
15:04:26 <ehird> Electrons are pretty fast, y'know.
15:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah and cable length is far from enough for it to matter
15:04:47 <ehird> Also, I finished reading the Ubuntu Software Store article. Great UI.
15:04:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Ha! Spoken like someone who has never used a Lisp Machine.
15:05:07 <AnMaster> anyway, 33 fps will still look smooth for video and such won't it?
15:05:10 <ehird> Why, those were so noisy we started getting cable latency just to save our ears from certain death!
15:05:17 <ehird> Also, yes; movies are 24fps.
15:05:18 <AnMaster> after all PAL has some pretty low number iirc
15:05:27 <ehird> Really fast window moving might blur a bit.
15:05:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Ha! Spoken like someone who has never used a Lisp Machine. ?
15:05:37 <ehird> NTSC is 29.99997 or somethin.
15:05:43 <ehird> AnMaster: re cable length latency
15:05:55 <ehird> But, for games it's pushing i.
15:06:03 <ehird> I don't really game, but...
15:06:13 <ehird> It's kind of irritating.
15:06:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how long cable would you need for that effect?
15:06:49 <ehird> Umm. Very, very long.
15:06:56 <ehird> I mean, we're talking electrons here, man.
15:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but that seems insane
15:08:17 <AnMaster> it would be several hundred meters at least right?
15:08:35 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that is silly for ear protection
15:09:21 <ehird> You never actually hear them if you keep them under your desk, but that's because your ears are immediately irrevocably damaged.
15:10:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well I mean, something like two rooms away with thick walls should be enough
15:10:26 <ehird> I'm joking, jesus christ.
15:14:51 <ehird> Elliott's First Principle of Software Development: Naming is not only the most important part of a software project (see Knuth), but it is also the hardest.
15:15:53 <ehird> (Elliott's Twenty-Third Principle of Software Development: You do NOT want separate document and tool windows. Don't believe me? One word: GIMP.)
15:15:58 <ehird> My principles are terribly specific.
15:18:02 <ehird> Let's see if they've managed to make a GUI designer that doesn't suck!
15:24:23 <coppro> that would require a toolkit that doesn't suck
15:24:30 <coppro> which is physically impossible
15:24:34 <fizzie> To be pedantic about it, the electrons aren't really moving all that fast, just the signals.
15:24:46 <ehird> coppro: i don't think gtk sucks *massively*
15:24:53 <ehird> well, glade at least isn't much to do with gtk programming, I'd say
15:24:59 <ehird> apart from the obvious stuff like signals, I presume
15:25:02 <ehird> coppro: well, everything sucks
15:25:05 <ehird> that's a useless metric
15:25:28 <coppro> some things don't suck
15:25:33 <coppro> hair dryers, for instance
15:26:33 <AnMaster> <coppro> hair dryers, for instance <-- they do when they are on too high heat :P
15:27:01 <AnMaster> (as a matter of fact they do, at the other end)
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15:58:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you know that macbook portable that had two dints where only one was needed for the trackball?
15:58:07 <ehird> you can move it to either side
16:01:50 <ehird> Hey, I change a setting and suddenly Compiz is running all smooth.
16:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "moving mouse", "changing setting"
16:04:02 <ehird> uh, in the macintosh portable
16:04:11 <ehird> with the two dents next to screen
16:04:16 <ehird> you said why two dents, one is enough for the trackball
16:04:54 <AnMaster> that is what I went heh at first
16:05:06 <AnMaster> then I decided to go heh at the changing setting in compiz
16:05:14 <ehird> "about both, what setting"
16:05:28 <ehird> anyway, compiz thought my monitor was 50 Hz, it's 60
16:05:32 <ehird> plus, enabled Sync to VBlank
16:05:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no the left side is "hahaha" and the right is "ahahah"
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16:17:05 <ehird> foo: Linux rev 1.0 ext2 filesystem data, UUID=3275a8a0-7d52-4ab0-b58d-d799e9b0bf3c
16:17:09 <ehird> nested filesystems~!
16:20:21 <ehird> fun to set up an md5sum on it and watch it change
16:20:41 <ehird> suggested filesystem feature: directories are just filesystem files
16:26:10 <ehird> "In that release to come in a year, that is when Canonical will begin selling select software from the Ubuntu Software Store."
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16:30:55 <ehird> kidPINGGGGGGGGGGGGS
16:45:15 <ehird> UI design sure ain't easy
17:06:18 <ehird> maybe i should make it a kde app, so i can drop all pretenses of usability, simplicity and design :)
17:23:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> "In that release to come in a year, that is when Canonical will begin selling select software from the Ubuntu Software Store." <-- sounds like I should plan changing distro
17:23:27 <ehird> Eh. The distro will still be FOSS.
17:23:39 <ehird> It's probably disableable too. But it IS really obnoxious.
17:24:01 <ehird> You'd think they'd just ask Shuttleworth for another couple million.
17:24:05 <AnMaster> you could argue that one shouldn't support that sort of obnoxious behaviour
17:24:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what about when shuttleworth dies in some years
17:24:55 <ehird> You mean in roughly 39 years?
17:24:59 <ehird> Yeah... not too worried about that.
17:25:09 <ehird> Also, inheritance. Also, I'm sure they'll come up with a business model by then.
17:25:16 <ehird> Also, they probably won't even exist then.
17:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't know how old he is, plus there could be an accident or something
17:25:43 <ehird> He's too rich to have a car crash :-P
17:26:25 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then, private jet crash?
17:26:27 <fizzie> Spaceship crash, maybe. :p
17:26:46 <ehird> Rich people have a protective buffer of money around them at all times.
17:27:23 <ehird> He can actually program, which is cool.
17:27:32 <ehird> I mean, you'd think him a bit too... I don't know, rich.
17:28:17 <fizzie> Hah, the Mark Shuttleworth wikipedia bio page uses the {{Infobox Astronaut ...}} box.
17:28:56 <ehird> You know, no human has ever been born in outer space.
17:29:15 <ehird> The citizenship fight there would be fun
17:29:35 <AnMaster> the name shuttleworth... what with the space shuttles and everything it made me wonder if his name has any connection to it
17:29:43 <fizzie> Read that just as "no human has ever been in outer space", had a "what, ehird's one of the moon landing deniers?" moment there.
17:29:51 <ehird> fizzie: Yes. Also the ISS.
17:29:57 <ehird> Also everything NASA has ever done ever.
17:30:42 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't it be similar to being born on international water while on a cruise or something
17:30:51 <ehird> Yes, but much cooler.
17:31:06 <ehird> "I was born in international waters" ==> "your parents are boring sailor fags"
17:31:12 <ehird> "I was born in space" ==> "SPACE!"
17:31:31 <AnMaster> "He lived in Smuts Hall, where he was involved in the installation of the first residential Internet connections at the university." <-- hah. sv:smuts is en:dirt so that looked really strange
17:31:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> "I was born in international waters" ==> "your parents are boring sailor fags" <-- is "in" really the right preposition?
17:32:08 <AnMaster> it could be, just sounds strange to me
17:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Water birth, clearly.
17:32:14 -!- lament has changed nick to ErroneousDonk.
17:32:29 -!- ehird has changed nick to CorrectKond.
17:32:39 <CorrectKond> ErroneousDonk: We must fight to the death.
17:33:25 <AnMaster> that is the only possible explanation I can think of
17:34:44 <CorrectKond> ErroneousDonk: you are the erroneous donk of... uh, kruut.
17:34:59 <CorrectKond> we cannot possibly exist in the same universe.
17:35:37 * AnMaster guesses bad super hero comic from the "strange period"
17:37:17 <AnMaster> From the spam directory. Subject: Don't read
17:38:28 <CorrectKond> "Absolutely no free member enhancers here, nosiree. We do have viagra though."
17:39:16 <AnMaster> CorrectKond, it was just junk inside, like very often. it seems they put junk in the normal part and then the real spam in the html part
17:39:16 <AnMaster> and since I disable html mails
17:41:56 * CorrectKond bludgeons ErroneousDonk some more, for good measure
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17:48:42 <ais523> Given that a course starts on 28 September 2009 and lasts a minimum of 72 months and a maximum of 48 months:
17:48:48 <ais523> a) in which month does it end?
17:48:52 <ais523> b) how many different helpdesks did I have to contact before getting the correct answer?
17:49:10 <CorrectKond> well, the range is obviously ... what's inclusive and exclusive?
17:49:24 <ais523> CorrectKond: the range is obviously incorrect
17:49:30 <ais523> I think it's inclusive, but it doesn't really matter
17:49:44 <ais523> [ is inclusive, ( is exclusive
17:50:33 <FireFly> So, we know that a >= 72 and a <= 48
17:51:05 <ais523> (extra fun: at least one of the answers I was given was "January 2015")
17:52:05 <ais523> CorrectKond: what's with the nick change, btw?
17:53:59 <ais523> <ehird> is about as complete as cygwin.
17:54:15 * ais523 misread that as * ehird is about as complete as cygwin
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17:55:06 <ais523> also, wow IE7 is bad, especially at rendering Slashdot
17:55:16 <ais523> and firewalls that block port 6667 outbound are annoying
17:55:28 <ais523> I used to use Mibbit to get on IRC from that connection
17:55:34 <ais523> but now, I can't get onto freenode at all from it
17:55:46 <FireFly> Didn't freenode block mibbit?
17:55:50 <FireFly> In favour of their own web client
17:55:58 <ais523> it's a Java IRC client
17:56:02 <ais523> that happens to be hosted on a website
17:56:10 <ais523> but the only thing it has to do with the web is that's how you access it
17:57:25 <ais523> also, going back to logs, apt-get install has one advantage: it's a pretty quick way of installing repository packages from the command line when you already know which one you want
17:57:31 <FireFly> In favour of their IRC client hosted on their own servers, with a serverside backend and web frontend
17:58:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
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17:58:35 <ais523> there isn't any serverside at all
17:58:43 <ais523> well, apart from the usual IRC servers
17:58:49 <ais523> it's just an IRC client
17:59:29 <ais523> it's an IRC client written in Java
17:59:39 <ais523> whose only advantage over any other is that it doesn't involve installing an IRC client
17:59:40 <FireFly> http://webchat.freenode.net/ <-- Doesn't look like Java to me
17:59:50 <ais523> ah, I found a different one
17:59:55 <FireFly> Looks very much like XHR to me
17:59:57 <ais523> which is really confusing...
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18:01:02 <ais523> is Lucid Lynx the actual name, btw?
18:01:06 <ais523> or just a placeholder?
18:01:51 <ais523> <ehird> suggested filesystem feature: directories are just filesystem files
18:01:53 <ais523> I actually had that idea
18:02:03 <ais523> same for things like zipfiles
18:02:11 <ais523> you could use them as directories, and you got their contents
18:02:29 <ais523> really old versions of DOS used to work like that, but without the usability
18:03:09 <ais523> CorrectKond: I've read the logs, and I /still/ don't get the reason for the nicks...
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18:21:33 <AnMaster> <FireFly> So, we know that a >= 72 and a <= 48
18:21:51 <AnMaster> in module a number larger than 73
18:22:13 <AnMaster> it would be a crazy definition yeah
18:24:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think about that definiton?
18:24:56 <ais523> greater-than doesn't really work with modulo
18:25:25 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But greater than 72, less than 48 in modulo 100 would be somewhere between 72 and 100 or 0 and 42
18:25:56 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, if you use the modular definition, modulo 12 is the sensible one
18:25:59 <ais523> as it's months in a year
18:26:06 <ais523> and you'd conclude that the course would end in September
18:26:14 <ais523> which is why the January 2015 option came as such a surprise
18:26:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I wasn't aware when it started though
18:27:27 <AnMaster> anyway how can a course not be exactly a specific length?
18:28:12 <ais523> it is a specific length, just the computers disagree on what that is
18:28:42 <ais523> AnMaster: in actual fact, both are supposed to be 48; the 72 was an error
18:28:48 <ais523> although one that I've spent 2 days now trying to correct
18:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, but why did you give min 72, max 48, not the other way around?
18:30:08 <AnMaster> I mean, it shows some computer system had a range for possible values
18:30:08 <ais523> AnMaster: because that's the way round it was on the computer
18:30:18 <ais523> which caused all sorts of hilarious side-effects
18:30:19 <AnMaster> so a course isn't a specific length?
18:30:34 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that computer program allows for variable-length courses
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19:16:02 <fizzie> ais523: Lucid Lynx is the actual name, yes.
19:18:29 <fizzie> Very recently announced; last weekend, I think.
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20:15:00 <AnMaster> is there any fullfledged debugger with stepping and inspecting variables for python?
20:19:44 <fizzie> I've seen a graphical python debugger screenshot in someone's door at work, as a "in vacation" note, but I don't know what the debugger was.
20:20:22 <fizzie> Maybe "on vacation", but anyway.
20:25:47 <AnMaster> ok found a few in gentoo portage
20:26:38 <AnMaster> (need it on gentoo since I can't reproduce the issue easily elsewhere due to the software setup I need to debug being highly non-trivial to relocate)
20:35:16 <AnMaster> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pudb this looks mad
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20:49:39 <AnMaster> oh great the thing crashes because the server sends <!doctype html>
20:49:50 <AnMaster> ehird: I hope you HTML5 nuts are happy
20:52:08 <AnMaster> FireFly, pywikipediabot on a wiki
20:52:37 <AnMaster> (not on a wikimedia operated one)
20:53:15 <AnMaster> I'm not very happy with that debugger, but it did the job
20:53:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/rpdb2.py:308: DeprecationWarning: the sets module is deprecated
20:53:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/rpdb2.py:313: DeprecationWarning: The popen2 module is deprecated. Use the subprocess module.
20:53:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/_core.py:14448: UserWarning: wxPython/wxWidgets release number mismatch
20:53:20 <AnMaster> warnings.warn("wxPython/wxWidgets release number mismatch")
20:53:22 <AnMaster> is what the debugger prints when it starts
20:53:38 <AnMaster> the term "bitrot" comes to mind
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23:18:27 <Rugxulo> found a Brainf*** interpreter in Befunge, but I can't get it to work
23:18:35 <Rugxulo> (seems mtve also found it recently according to the comments)
23:18:42 <Rugxulo> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/09/two-dimensional_pathology_befu.php
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23:30:57 * Rugxulo cannot figure the damn thing out!
23:31:49 <Ilari> Rugxulo: What is numeric range for interpretter you are using?
23:33:48 <Rugxulo> why, does it have to be a special bignum interpreter?
23:34:24 <Ilari> Rugxulo: It says so.
23:34:48 <Rugxulo> it's the exact same one from mtve's page, apparently
23:35:01 <Ilari> Rugxulo: AFAIK, Befunge-93 is TC only with bignums. Befunge-98 can be made to be TC without them.
23:39:47 <Rugxulo> oops, not mtve's page but the discussion page on Esolang Wiki, I think (NathanC's work, IIRC)
23:42:01 <Ilari> It could be interesting to write befunge-98 BF interpretter (no fingerprints, all numbers bounded)
23:42:30 <fizzie> I don't think fungot's ^bf uses any fingerprints, really.
23:42:31 <fungot> fizzie: ' yes, archchancellor?" said carrot.
23:42:51 <Rugxulo> ErroneousDonk: I haven't :-P
23:43:04 <fizzie> Or do you mean befunge-98 implemented in brainfuck? It's not immediately obvious from that.
23:43:29 <fizzie> I guess it would make more sense that way around.
23:43:36 <Rugxulo> most BF progs don't need more than 32-bits, do they? so it should still be possible for a modest pseudo-BF interpreter in B93, right??
23:43:46 <Ilari> fizzie: BF implemented in Befunge-98, no fingerprints, number range bounded.
23:44:09 <fizzie> Well, ^bf has that, except it has a tape length limit too, but it would be trivial to make it unlimited.
23:44:16 <fizzie> And number range is bounded to [0, 255].
23:47:26 <fizzie> I did a standalone version of the Underload interpreter -- or to be exact, I wrote the Underload interpreter as a standalone program and then only later integrated it in fungot -- but the brainfuck one is only available as a part of http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 -- lines ~350-372 turn a brainfuck program into a bytecode of sorts, and lines 294-306 execute that.
23:47:26 <fungot> fizzie: ridcully glared for scum, even clapping his hands over his face.
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23:49:54 <fizzie> If you want to be exact about it, the Befunge-98 funge-space isn't infinite either, because vector coordinates are limited to the cell size, so there's only 2^128 locations available in total. But you should be able to do a real infinite tape out of the stack-stack operations, I think we talked about this at some point.
23:50:20 <fizzie> (Unless you happen to have a bignum Befunge-98.)
23:51:51 <Ilari> fizzie: And bignum Befunge-93 would be TC anyway...
23:53:23 <fizzie> Yes. But with the stack-stack "u" a real tape is trivial even in a non-bignum Funge-98.
23:56:17 <fizzie> The classic "Befunge-93 interpreter in Befunge-93" is nice, too; http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/befbef.bf
23:56:30 <fizzie> Admittedly the playfield for the interpreted code is a bit smaller.
23:58:53 <Rugxulo> mtve's is better (smaller)
23:59:14 <Rugxulo> http://www.frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/bef_bef/
23:59:50 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of whitespace in the classic befbef.
00:01:43 <Rugxulo> okay, here's a link to Brainf*** in "bignum" Befunge (with instructions, examples, etc.)
00:01:53 <Rugxulo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge
00:02:27 <Rugxulo> silly that I got confused on the exact same program elsewhere (ah, memory is the first to go ...)
00:03:24 <Rugxulo> ErroneousDonk: Kial vi ne diskutas kun ni? ;-))
00:04:30 <Rugxulo> Donk? ah, and I kept reading it as "Dork", meh
00:06:43 <Rugxulo> bigbef seems to be really really slow on quine.b
00:06:49 <Rugxulo> (or maybe it hung, I can't tell)
00:07:30 <Rugxulo> I'm letting it sit for a while just to see :-)
00:14:14 <Rugxulo> maybe this quine expects some wraparound??
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04:35:55 <augur> i need someone who knows bash and regexes.
04:37:43 <augur> i need to rename a file based on a regex
04:38:23 <coppro> I'd pipe find into grep
04:38:35 <coppro> or if you don't want recursive, just use a glob
04:39:22 <coppro> that's Perl and thus cheating
04:40:17 <augur> im going to see if ruby has perms actually
04:40:17 <coppro> for source in list; do mv $source `echo $source | sed s/regex/replacement/`; done
04:40:17 <augur> it probably doesnt but
04:40:43 <pikhq> for source in list; do mv $source ${source/regex/replacement};done
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11:19:53 <ehird> <ais523> it isn't a web client
11:19:54 <ehird> <ais523> it's a Java IRC client
11:19:54 <ehird> <ais523> that happens to be hosted on a
11:19:57 <ehird> they made a new one
11:20:07 <ehird> <ais523> also, going back to logs, apt-get install has one advantage: it's a pretty quick way of installing repository packages from the command line when you already know which one you want
11:20:12 <ehird> from the command line
11:20:14 <ehird> not when not in one
11:20:57 <ehird> <ais523> is Lucid Lynx the actual name, btw?
11:20:58 <ehird> <ais523> or just a placeholder?
11:21:03 <ehird> <ais523> CorrectKond: I've read the logs, and I /still/ don't get the reason for the nicks...
11:21:09 <ehird> I just reacted to lament
11:22:17 <ehird> <AnMaster> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pudb this looks mad
11:22:20 <ehird> dude use the built-in debugger
11:22:31 <ehird> <AnMaster> oh great the thing crashes because the server sends <!doctype html>
11:22:31 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird: I hope you HTML5 nuts are happy
11:22:36 <ehird> the program is broken -- it's the website's fault!
11:25:02 <ehird> 20:39:22 <coppro> that's Perl and thus cheating
11:25:08 <ehird> 20:40:43 <pikhq> for source in list; do mv $source ${source/regex/replacement};done
11:25:11 <ehird> jesus christ people
11:25:28 <ehird> rename 's/regex/replacement/' $list
11:26:05 <Deewiant> That depends on which rename you have.
11:26:29 <Deewiant> I have the "rename from to file..." one.
11:26:39 <ehird> so use the perl one
11:27:54 <Deewiant> Just saying that that command doesn't work out-of-the-box on many systems.
11:29:38 <ehird> Deewiant: but the point is to do it in a quick oneliner, I assume, not a script
11:29:44 <ehird> in which case for portability you wouldn't be using ${//}.
11:30:46 <Deewiant> A quick oneliner is not so quick when you have to dig up the package containing that version of rename :-P
11:30:50 <ehird> Deewiant: you mean "perl"?
11:31:51 <Deewiant> ehird: On Arch, it's "prename"
11:32:10 <ehird> On Ubuntu, it's OH WAIT IT COMES WITH THAT.
11:32:13 <Deewiant> I have been on several other systems too where Perl certainly exists, but that rename does not, at least under that name.
11:34:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> dude use the built-in debugger <-- oh? what module?
11:35:00 <ehird> python -m pdb poop.py
11:35:11 <ehird> http://docs.python.org/library/pdb.html manual
11:35:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> 20:40:43 <pikhq> for source in list; do mv $source ${source/regex/replacement};done <-- what is so wrong with that? it is what I usually do in such cases
11:35:44 <ehird> because it's identical to `rename "s/regex/replacement" $list` and 70 times longer just because coppro said it doesn't count because it's perl
11:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't have that rename you mentioned either
11:36:24 <AnMaster> also hm is the ratio really 70:1?
11:37:00 <ehird> Also, it's default on Ubuntu, at least.
11:37:11 <ehird> It's an official part of perl, at least.
11:37:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but not most other distros IME
11:37:22 <ehird> Well, install it then; it's good. :P
11:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, happen to know the website of this version of rename so I can find the right one?
11:38:07 <ehird> Uh, http://perl.org/
11:38:18 <ehird> It's part of perl.
11:38:21 <AnMaster> also as Deewiant said, "<Deewiant> A quick oneliner is not so quick when you have to dig up the package containing that version of rename :-P"
11:38:39 <ehird> True Slack is putting in the work to be lazier in future.
11:38:47 <AnMaster> can't find it in the perl package at least
11:38:51 <ehird> Plus, perl regexps kinda beat bash regexps.
11:38:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Presumably your distro mangles packages.
11:39:18 <ehird> Extracts programs, puts them in other places, etc.
11:39:19 <Deewiant> The Arch pkgbuild gets it from Debian's Perl package
11:39:30 <ehird> Also the cause of many Ruby installation woes, because Debian splits up near-essential parts.
11:39:32 <Deewiant> So I believe it is Debian here doing the mangling, by adding such a thing.
11:40:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Uh, no. I can prove it:
11:40:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah that is my conclusion too looking around
11:40:17 <ehird> RENAME(1) Perl Programmers Reference Guide RENAME(1)
11:40:22 <ehird> perl v5.10.0 2009-06-26 RENAME(1)
11:40:25 <ehird> Conclusion: Part of perl.
11:40:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, a person can only distribute his code in a single package. Maintaining two programs is forbidden by law
11:41:20 <ehird> Yeah, generally people don't say "perl v5.10.0" in a package that isn't that, and put it in the Perl Programmers Reference Guide.
11:43:21 <Deewiant> ehird: It's not in perl-5.10.1.tar.gz from perl.org.
11:43:29 <ehird> Probably a ./configure option.
11:43:32 <AnMaster> indeed I checked that too just now
11:43:35 <ehird> Or some auxillary perl.org package, at least.
11:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> Or some auxillary perl.org package, at least." <-- That is, not part of main perl package.
11:44:06 <ehird> It's still part of perl then, just not core perl.
11:44:18 <Deewiant> All of CPAN is "part of Perl" now?
11:44:19 <ehird> http://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=larry+wall+rename OK, I take it back.
11:44:30 <ehird> "from Larry Wall's original script eg/rename from the perl source"
11:44:37 <ehird> Deewiant: CPAN is not a perl.org perl package.
11:44:39 <Deewiant> Yep, but it's not there any more.
11:44:52 <ehird> When it was part of anything it was part of perl
11:44:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well you were claiming it was
11:44:53 <Deewiant> ehird: Neither is Perl, as it's downloaded from cpan.org.
11:45:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Similarly, sourceforge packages aren't from sourceforge.net.
11:45:23 <AnMaster> indeed, perl.org download link takes me to ftp://ftp.cpan.org/pub/CPAN/src/5.0/
11:45:25 <ehird> They're from **Nondeterminism error
11:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, cpan.org isn't a mirror of perl.org though
11:45:54 <Deewiant> ehird: They are from dl.sourceforge.net, actually.
11:46:04 <Deewiant> Anyway, I'm done with this nitpicking
11:46:21 <ehird> Nitpicking is like pedanticism, except annoying and not interesting.
11:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say that distros *NOT* including the perl rename with the perl package were mangling?
11:46:59 <ehird> Can we shut the fuck up about this?
11:47:22 <ehird> I know you have some sort of deep-seated urge to prove every trivial thing I say wrong and come out on top, triumphant, saying "Ha! You were WRONG!", but it really just comes out as seeming insecure.
11:47:33 <AnMaster> just you were trying to attack gentoo on the grounds that it didn't include rename with the perl package itself
11:48:24 <ehird> Yeah, I was launching a vicious attack on Gentoo and you know what, fuck off, you really are insecure.
11:48:42 <AnMaster> I have no idea how you came to that conclusion
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12:11:38 <ehird> Flash in Epiphany is so buggy... but the browser is wonderful otherwise.
12:19:44 <ehird> Compiz's window placement sucks. Wonder if Metacity's does too.
12:26:50 <ehird> It just puts windows in successive corners.
12:26:57 <ehird> Which is super-retarded, as nothing ever has center focus.
12:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, metacity seems to do a bit better than that here. But it seems to depend on window size too
12:27:54 <ehird> Well yes, small windows seem to be centered.
12:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant that windows covering more than half the screen are always placed somewhat center, offset a bit towards upper left corner
12:29:04 <ehird> Not doing that with Epiphany windows here.
12:29:13 <ehird> I'll try metacity.
12:29:15 <AnMaster> and if two such big ones are opened after each other they seem to end up so that the title bar of the previous one still is visible
12:29:26 <ehird> I sure didn't think window placement would be the thing I'd miss from OS X...
12:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, tried kate and the help browser after each other
12:29:50 <ehird> Cool, with metacity it cascades new windows from top-left.
12:30:00 <ehird> Wait, no, not cool, the other thing; retarded.
12:30:23 <AnMaster> ehird, not exactly that here. But it could be because I have other windows open in various parts of the screen already
12:30:28 <ehird> ...but better than Compiz's "Smart" placement, so I'll tell Compiz to cascade.
12:30:40 * ehird makes a note to write a good placement module sometime
12:30:59 <AnMaster> I would like to know what algorithm you prefer
12:31:13 <AnMaster> I certainly agree metacity isn't perfect
12:31:13 <ehird> I should just get a small-resolution laptop so I can tell it to maximize everything. :)
12:31:22 <ehird> AnMaster: What OS X does is great, what Windows does is fine.
12:31:33 <ehird> Cascading makes me do more moving of windows, but doesn't annoy me.
12:31:38 <ehird> Alternating corners makes me rage.
12:32:29 <ehird> Anyway, I think someone implanted a virus in Ubuntu that makes you want to contribute to the projects.
12:32:44 <AnMaster> btw I used that disk usage analyser app in gnome/ubuntu. Quite interesting "not quite pie-chart, but something circular still" it generates. Two most visual things: $HOME/.VirtualBox and $HOME/icc
12:32:49 <ehird> I'm certainly tempted to, but I'm scared of the useless bug trackers...
12:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that thing's... interesting.
12:33:18 <ehird> Took me a few seconds of hovering to work it out, so I'd say non-ideal.
12:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, icc is quite bloated. 2.6 GB for ICC!
12:33:49 <AnMaster> ehird, mind you, that include docs, but the docs isn't the main part of it
12:34:00 <ehird> AnMaster: System -> Administration -> Authorisations has AppArmor stuff, btw.
12:34:04 <ehird> Or SELinux, who knows.
12:34:20 <ehird> Not much there, actually; a few scheduling options and low-level permissions, but nothing frontend.
12:34:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I looked at that, couldn't find any docs on how it worked and decided it was best to leave it for now thus
12:34:28 <AnMaster> not wanting to mess things up badly
12:34:37 <ehird> It looks quite scary, yes.
12:34:53 <ehird> Heh, OpenOffice takes a good chunk of my disk (and also sucks).
12:34:57 <AnMaster> well, not really, just it doesn't tell you very well what the various alternatives do
12:35:01 <ehird> But I won't remove it, because I want ubtunu-desktop.
12:35:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yep, but that is still way less than icc
12:35:11 <ehird> Also apt archives.
12:36:00 <AnMaster> hm the single largest subdir to icc is ipp/em64t/lib at 1.2 GB (ipp itself is 1.6 GB)
12:36:01 <ehird> Everything else (that isn't big like /usr) is quite small; /usr/share is 901MiB but consists of a lot of quite small stuff.
12:36:33 <ehird> Well, it might be MB, actually.
12:36:35 <AnMaster> /usr is 5.6 GB and home 22.0 GB
12:36:48 <AnMaster> but the main chunk in home is virtualbox harddrives
12:36:50 <ehird> I think GNOME uses base-2 filesystem sizes, though, because it says 60.4 GB instead of 64 GB.
12:37:03 <ehird> Hope that changes sometime...
12:37:06 <ehird> I'm only using 3.3GiB, anyway.
12:37:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Try "View as Treemap Chart". You too can be a modern artist!
12:37:34 <ehird> It's also more helpful than the other view, I think.
12:37:46 <ehird> Although it's hard to hover over /usr; just the borders, really.
12:38:37 <AnMaster> ehird, /srv is 1003.9 MB (so yeah 1024 or it would be listed as 1 GB instead), why? because following some ubuntu guide on 32-bit chroot put it under /srv/chroot, couldn't think of a good reason to change that.
12:39:29 <ehird> /srv is one of those things the FHS guys invented because they're stupid and nobody uses. :P
12:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I think Gregor's colour matcher was used for that... In the "generate non-matching" mode that is
12:39:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well alternative was /var/chroot, would be trivial to move though
12:39:56 <ehird> Just looked up; "Data for services provided by this system"
12:40:01 <ehird> I don't think that's the best place for a chroot.
12:42:07 * ehird wonders whether /-commands are really needed in an IRC client in this day and age
12:42:19 <ehird> it seems like /j is pointless if you have a Ctrl+J
12:42:27 <ehird> /me is a bit tricky though
12:42:37 <ehird> Ctrl+J #foo <ENTER>
12:42:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then, old habits die hard
12:43:02 <ehird> And the former is better because you can reuse whatever GUI widget or whatever you have, and it also means you don't have to escape / all the time at the start of lines.
12:43:06 <ehird> (Which ate my /srv message before.)
12:43:20 <ehird> (You can be inconsistent and only block some /s that you handle, but that's even more confusing when it drops a message.)
12:43:51 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm trying to make an IRC client that follows the GNOME HIG to a T; I'm pretty sure old IRC habits are going to be brutally murdered.
12:44:01 <ehird> (Human Interface Guidelines)
12:44:41 <ehird> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/to-a-t.html
12:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway what about stuff like /me and /whois and so on. Plus what about when you need to enter a command there is no keybinding for. Ctrl-O for oper? Ctrl-g for gline or Ctrl-g for kline? And so on.
12:45:42 <AnMaster> and there is gzline/zline too on some ircds
12:45:51 <AnMaster> oh and syntax differs for those generally
12:46:00 <ehird> <ehird> /me is a bit tricky though
12:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes missed that line
12:46:29 <ehird> Also, /whois would probably be done by double clicking the user or using the menu. :P
12:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, would that do /whois nick or /whois nick nick
12:46:47 <ehird> So you could do a shortcut then by, say, Alt+foo W, where foo is the shortcut key of the menu with whois in it.
12:46:50 <AnMaster> the latter picks up idle time too
12:47:00 <ehird> AnMaster: The latter has more info, and it'd be displayed as a dialog box, so the latter.
12:47:49 <ehird> Man, the Bitch-X users will kill me. :)
12:48:59 <AnMaster> edge case time! (but this actually happened to me once) What if there are network problems (DDoS say) but you still need to gline a spambot, a nick nick whois would take way longer and if servers are about to split might not work at all, but with nick one time you can still get it and act on it, of course the gline won't be applied for some time (in the case of a split, not until the servers reconnect
12:49:17 <ehird> Um, connect with telnet? :P
12:49:34 <ehird> USER AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster
12:50:04 <ehird> I dunno how I'll represent the multitude of possible actions on a user, anyway.
12:50:08 <AnMaster> you will always need a way to send arbritary commands to the server. Even if you for some odd reason decide "lets make this client unusable to opers"
12:50:24 <ehird> Well, yes, of course there'll be a raw.
12:50:37 <ehird> But I don't think Alt+blah W name <ENTER> is any less usable than /whois name <ENTER>
12:50:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah and it differs between ircds. Anyway it is simple, let user customise menus with options if the defaults doesn't fit their need. Even xchat has that iirc
12:51:11 <ehird> The menus will contain everything.
12:51:56 <ehird> But really, I'm not looking to attract opers; I'm looking to attract the 90% of IRC users who just talk and do 90% of the operations on users, channels etc.
12:52:12 <ehird> X-Chat will always be there.
12:52:28 <AnMaster> ehird, impossible because you can do wildcard glines. Like say: /gline *.idiot.ru 2d4h :reason blah blah
12:52:33 <AnMaster> well, syntax will differ between ircds
12:52:42 <ehird> Menus open dialog boxes, you know
12:52:53 <ehird> I'm not filing every possible nickname input under a submenu :)
12:52:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but I mean stuff like parameter position and format may differ
12:53:07 <ehird> Use the raw. Write a plugin.
12:53:37 <ehird> (I'm pretty sure plugins reacting to text will be useful for some things, so no reason not to let them add menu items.)
12:53:53 <AnMaster> like removing a gline? /gline -<match here> or maybe /ungline or even /gline <match here, but exclude the timeout and reason>
12:54:58 <ehird> But there's really not much more I can say other than that's not my target market.
12:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But even so I can't see how you can remove / really. There is /me yes but sure you could make "/me" be the only special one I guess.
12:56:20 <ehird> I guess I'll give it a keyboard shortcut for "Send" vs "Send as action".
12:56:25 <AnMaster> however that will be irritating if you typo /mee /em or such. Instead of getting something like "no such command" you would get that on irc channel
12:56:31 <ehird> <Enter> is Send, <whatever> is Send as action.
12:56:51 <ehird> Quicker to type, to boot. I know existing clients let you assign such a key.
12:57:20 <ehird> But really, I'll see how it ends up. I'm just not going to think "well, other clients have this, so I'd better do it that way".
12:58:44 <AnMaster> how will you represent different servers? I found that the tree view mode of xchat works fairly well
12:59:05 <ehird> Yes, XChat-GNOME uses it too and it seems sane.
12:59:42 <ehird> Although I'll probably use "Network" instead of "Server", in accordance with "Create a Match Between Your Application and the Real World" (which is a bad title, but basically comes down to "use a term that's just as valid but not jargon when possible").
12:59:59 <ehird> ("Network" sounds like IRC jargon, but not to someone who doesn't know of its IRC usage: it's a network of people.)
13:00:12 <ehird> (Note "just as valid"; it's not dumbing down.)
13:00:44 <ehird> (Alternative reading: "I'm going to be a Mazi and remove every button!")
13:00:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know how may irc channels you are on, but I can assure you that the tree view scales well even to my levels. A bit of scrolling yeah (less after I patched to code to reduce distance between lines) but way better than tabs and such
13:01:10 <ehird> AnMaster: The GNOME tree view has simple searching, too, so a lot of that scrolling would be eliminated.
13:01:28 <ehird> I am currently in two channels; the most channels I'm ever actually looking at regularly is about 4, but that's mostly by choice.
13:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, of course network is valid. But I guess you aren't the kind of guy to connect to more than one server on a network at the same time ever ;)
13:01:36 <ehird> People... do that?
13:01:43 <AnMaster> it's quite possibly something only opers do.
13:01:44 <ehird> What, to avoid netsplits?
13:02:06 <AnMaster> ehird, for opers, when you try to pick up things after a bad netsplit :P
13:02:30 <ehird> I wonder why irssi is the only client that detects netsplits and condenses them to "Netsplit between servers, people quit: a, b, c, ...".
13:02:32 <AnMaster> say, when the server went down due to hardware issues and you are relinking stuff
13:02:36 <ehird> It's annoying to have text interrupted by a netsplit.
13:02:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why irssi is the only client that detects netsplits and condenses them to "Netsplit between servers, people quit: a, b, c, ...". <-- seen other ones do it iirc
13:03:11 <AnMaster> for example I think there was some xchat script to do it, and quite possible there is a mirc script for it
13:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well, as long as you notice that the guy you were just talking to isn't in the channel any more ;P
13:04:07 <ehird> AnMaster: You'll notice that when tab completion fails. :P
13:04:46 <AnMaster> not everyone highlights quite as much as I do. Unless they spent their first year on irc in busy channels like ##linux and #gentoo
13:04:56 <AnMaster> where it is more or less required to keep track
13:05:19 <AnMaster> oh btw, about detecting netsplits. What would you match on?
13:05:52 <AnMaster> (this question isn't as silly as it sounds)
13:06:05 <AnMaster> (there is a good reason I ask)(
13:06:39 <AnMaster> (oh and that is valid sed iirc, for ( to act special you would need to escape it. Yeah sed is a bit weird sometimes)
13:09:42 <comex> that's why I use sed -r
13:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: that's posix regexps
13:14:04 <ehird> also, just (server server) as quit message.
13:14:43 <AnMaster> ehird, where first server doesn't end with a :?
13:15:28 <ehird> irssi also handles "Netsplit over, joins: ..." which is impressive.
13:15:28 <AnMaster> while freenode puts quotes around quit reasons from /quit, some servers do it like: Quit: <user reason here>
13:15:35 <AnMaster> and I have seen yet other ones
13:15:50 <AnMaster> like: [Quit] <User reason here>
13:16:14 <AnMaster> oh and some servers hide netsplits (like freenode does) but unlike freenode instead shows it as: *.net *.split
13:16:30 <AnMaster> that is quite a common replacement for when hiding
13:17:01 <ehird> Crazy IRC servers.
13:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is, I guess it detects a burst join (people could quit that server, and reconnect to another. Quite likely even if the server they were on split because it itself had network troubles, rather than due to some hub having issues, or just a route messup to part of the internet)
13:18:11 <ehird> irssi is a solid piece of software, even if I dislike the interface.
13:18:21 <ehird> (But I'm not going to write an irssi frontend; that'd just be a world of pain.)
13:19:13 <AnMaster> yes it would, since it does have some internal flaws too. Mostly related to networks using less traditionalist server software. And being idiot about the prefix list in 005
13:20:02 <ehird> Anyone remember irssi2? It still exists, I think. tl;dr it's like xmms2 for irssi; i.e. totally unlike v1, server/client architecture galore, overengineered, and will never be usable.
13:20:25 <AnMaster> for a long time (don't know if it is still like this) irssi allowed exactly voice, half-op, op and one additional. Except almost all of the networks with additional prefixes has exactly two additional ones
13:20:46 <AnMaster> which was kind of irritating as it meant it messed up showing one of them
13:21:04 <AnMaster> ehird, second system syndrome?
13:21:10 <AnMaster> also I never heard of irssi2 before
13:23:07 <ehird> That GNOME vs KDE article with the vomiting-drug-using-laptop-slamming GNOME developers and the European-with-quiet-classical-music-in-a-glass-building-then-random-killing KDE developers seems to have reversed.
13:23:45 <ehird> KDE's all ooh, shiny, moar bloat these days and GNOME is all serious and usability-researching and everything.
13:24:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, it was like that article described quite some time ago though.
13:25:11 <ehird> I think GNOME 2.0 and KDE 3.0 was when it flipped.
13:25:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, some point midway during KDE 3 life time I'd say
13:25:48 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/KDE_3.0.jpg ;; Wow, I hope this wasn't t he default theme.
13:25:59 <ehird> Bad OS X ripoff window borders, awful green windows...
13:26:16 <ehird> (What is it with Linuxers and imitating OS X?)
13:26:32 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/KDE-3.1-es-ES.png ;; looks like KDE 3.1 was when it started happening
13:26:42 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue, I think it is mostly with "screenshotting linux users" rather than linux users in general
13:27:02 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Kde_3_3_screengrab.png ;; Wow, it's like you took this screenshot.
13:27:15 <ehird> KDE 2 theme on KDE 3 + Swedish + uberhinted text.
13:27:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd move it more towards KDE 3.2 for the first hints of it, and KDE 3.4 well on the way. KDE 3.5 definitely had it bad yeah
13:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, heh looks nice apart from the huge text shadow on desktop. And that isn't antialiased at all
13:28:15 <ehird> Close enough. But ow, I just noticed that shadow when you pointed it out.
13:28:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:28:22 <ehird> More of a smudge than a shadow.
13:28:29 <AnMaster> ehird, also I wouldn't used the gradient for either desktop or the kicker
13:28:56 <ehird> Incidentally, GNOME 2.28 is going to move in a decidedly un-candylike direction: by default, no icons will be displayed in menus.
13:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm that is actually a step backwards in usability
13:29:27 <AnMaster> because icons are useful for quickly finding what you want when you know what it is
13:29:37 <ehird> By default, many but not all push buttons and menu items have an icon as well as text. As well as making the interface more cluttered, this slows people down by misleading them into thinking that they can decipher a transient controls icon faster than they can read its text, which is rarely if ever true."
13:29:40 <ehird> -- Matthew Paul Thomas
13:29:40 <AnMaster> like, I want lyx, I can visually quickly find the lyx icon in the meny
13:29:50 <ehird> You need very big icons to be able to make snap decisions like that.
13:30:04 <ehird> AnMaster: True, for application menus it might be better to have icons.
13:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well for buttons I agree. But I meant for application menu only
13:30:19 <ehird> Not buttons, menu items like Zoom In and the like.
13:30:25 <ehird> Well, also OK/Cancel buttons.
13:30:47 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe an icon you use so often that your brain looks for the icon should be in a panel, though.
13:30:56 <AnMaster> ehird, toolbar buttons with icons is useful though
13:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes but that would fill the panel
13:31:14 <ehird> Yes, the toolbar icons are good because they're big and making icons for them isn't tedious as they're the most common options.
13:31:31 <ehird> They're considering moving the icon text to the right so that text only appears for some icons and to save vertical space, but I think that's misguided.
13:31:38 <AnMaster> I hate ff, kate, thunderbird, konsole and some more in the panel
13:31:40 <ehird> As the icons are useful for locating, but not discovering.
13:31:48 <AnMaster> but lyx I maybe use once every second week or so?
13:31:49 <ehird> AnMaster: You hate all those applications you use? Gee.
13:31:54 <AnMaster> sometimes more, sometimes less
13:32:02 <ehird> <AnMaster> I hate ff, kate, thunderbird, konsole and some more in the panel
13:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I dislike ff but for uni website I need it.
13:32:24 <ehird> Read what you said.
13:32:25 <ehird> <AnMaster> I hate ff, kate, thunderbird, konsole and some more in the panel
13:32:54 <ehird> (re browsers: Did I mention I like Epiphany?)
13:33:51 <AnMaster> anyway, there are lots of app that I don't use quite enough to have them in panel (and having too many makes it harder to find a specific one in it too, more icons to scan through)
13:34:03 <AnMaster> but still use often enough to locate with icon
13:34:13 <ehird> Icons are probably best for subconscious honing.
13:34:38 <AnMaster> works quite well for stuff like save/open/cut/copy/paste as well
13:34:45 <ehird> Nope, that's the thing.
13:35:07 <AnMaster> ehird, since it is the same icons for those all across gnome (and KDE too if you set it to that)
13:35:08 <ehird> You don't use menus for cut/copy/paste unless you haven't heard of them yet, and save/open are in the toolbar.
13:35:24 <ehird> Menus are for (a) not so common operations and (b) discovering operations.
13:35:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what about zoom then? key combo is less standard for that
13:35:42 <ehird> For both of these, icons slow you down: it seems like you should be able to understand this small image more quickly than reading the text.
13:35:52 <ehird> But in fact, that's generally not true (we're good at reading).
13:36:08 <AnMaster> depends on how well organised the menu is
13:36:10 <ehird> AnMaster: If zooming is a common operation it'll be in the toolbar. If not, well, the icon won't be standard if the shortcut isn't.
13:36:16 <AnMaster> plus what about the special case of "settings/preferences"?
13:36:26 <ehird> That's always in Edit at the bottom in GNOME.
13:36:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not so in KDE apps. Rather some menu at the end.
13:37:11 <AnMaster> last one before help menu usuaully
13:37:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, and the icons won't be the same in KDE apps either, so it slows you down trying to recognize them.
13:37:20 <ehird> In that case no-icon menus actually speed up discovering where it is in this program.
13:37:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Two other reasons it was done: cleaner look, quicker development (making a good icon for many new operations is hard and tedious).
13:38:13 <ehird> Personally another reason it's good is that right now, the start of the menu name is aligned with the icon, and so I have to move my eyes to read the text, which is annoying.
13:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what about firefox then? There it helps because a) locations vary between platforms b) icons don't (at least between linux/windows iirc, don't remember for the os x case)
13:39:03 <ehird> Sure they do vary for Linux.
13:39:09 <ehird> They use the GNOME icons when you have GNOME.
13:39:21 <AnMaster> ehird, seems like firefox use their own. At least for stuff like "add-ons" and such
13:39:26 <ehird> Yes, but not Preferences.
13:39:34 <ehird> Mostly Preferences moves in Firefox, not much else.
13:39:50 <AnMaster> thought it was same icon. but ok
13:40:01 <ehird> Well, it may be an option to enable GNOMEification.
13:40:15 <ehird> Or ubufox might do it (Ubuntu's Firefox changes).
13:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, they are same on ubuntu and gentoo for me.
13:41:18 <AnMaster> and that ubuntu extension to firefox is enabled
13:41:22 <ehird> Help -> About Mozilla Firefox; "Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu" "canonical - 1.0" here.
13:41:45 <ehird> Also, amusing about your addons point; the addons entry has no icon.
13:42:04 <ehird> Even disabling Ubuntu's extension, it still has the GNOME icon.
13:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: What GNOME theme are you using?
13:42:15 <AnMaster> ehird, does here. A green puzzle "bit" (or whatever the term is)
13:42:42 <ehird> Also, what Firefox version? 3.0.14 here.
13:42:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Well then.
13:42:48 <ehird> That's using the Clearlooks icon set.
13:42:52 <ehird> Check a GNOME app. It'll be the same.
13:43:00 <AnMaster> I'm not using default firefox theme I just rememberd
13:43:26 <ehird> Probably. The Clearlooks Preferences icon (and in Firefox too) is a bunch of... uh...
13:43:29 <ehird> The knobs on the up/down things you can move.
13:43:46 <ehird> Also, Clearlooks is still in-your-face. I preferred the old-style Clearlooks...
13:44:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but that isn't what firefox uses at all here. So yeah I guess due to firefox theme
13:44:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it was the best of those available by default
13:44:18 <ehird> http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png ;; old Clearlooks, more sane and less glaring
13:44:24 <AnMaster> with some tuning it is quite okish
13:44:31 <AnMaster> far from good, too round in forms
13:44:35 <ehird> AnMaster: You might like Mist; it's very flat.
13:44:42 <ehird> Install gnome-themes or gnome-themes-extra; I forget.
13:45:06 <ehird> AnMaster: If you go to the Clearlooks details, you can change it to ClearlooksClassic, which has nicer controls.
13:45:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I do want some slight non-flatness to easier see what is buttons and such. Just I dislike the strongly rounded corners
13:45:16 <ehird> Colours still need changing to not glare, though.
13:45:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it is outdented slightly.
13:45:29 <ehird> If you don'tw ant to install anything, try Glider.
13:46:10 <AnMaster> anyway installing gnome-themes atm
13:46:18 <ehird> Oh, maybe Glider is in that package.
13:46:41 <ehird> Personally I like Human, probably because blue is so overdone.
13:46:43 <ehird> A green theme would be nice too.
13:47:02 <ehird> (Well, technically you can change Human's colour, I think.)
13:47:13 <AnMaster> ehird, can you save your current one? One thing that annoys me with gnome preferences is that there is just "close" no easy "cancel" button
13:47:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Custom themes don't modify.
13:47:44 <AnMaster> ehird, for some reason it is grayed out...
13:47:45 <ehird> The button is "Customise...", not change.
13:47:54 <ehird> You're making a custom version, for yourself; it does not change the original theme.
13:48:00 <ehird> ( I am now sporting a green Human. It is ugly.)
13:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't save as a theme you didn't change...
13:48:16 <ehird> That'd just be a duplicate.
13:48:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I did however. So sounds like a bug. Opening customise and then just closing it enabled the button
13:48:37 <ehird> As I said: customising does not change the original; that isn't what "customise" means.
13:48:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, no, you're just misguided as to what you pressed, I think.
13:48:55 <ehird> Your selection was Custom, right?
13:48:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed that it would change the original
13:49:01 <ehird> If not, well of course there's no save as button.
13:50:30 <AnMaster> mist goes a bit too far I think, still possibly better than clearlooks, though the default icon theme with mist is quite horrible
13:50:52 <ehird> AnMaster: It's the Clearlooks icon theme...
13:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no it is blue theme instead of gray?
13:51:16 <ehird> So I guess you were using Custom, not Clearlooks. :P
13:51:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Clearlooks' icons are not gray.
13:51:25 <AnMaster> even looking at the clearlooks entry
13:51:45 <ehird> I can prove it, too: customise Mist, select Icons.
13:52:06 <ehird> Most of Mist's icons are the same as to Clearlooks', though.
13:52:17 <ehird> And they're definitely blue.
13:52:36 <AnMaster> if you look at the main theme page there is preview. Compare mist icon theme (blue folder in preview) to the clearlooks, which is more gray
13:53:27 <ehird> The Clearlooks icon theme is simply the official GNOME theme.
13:53:39 <ehird> Yes, folders are green.
13:53:43 <ehird> But toolbar icons are *blue*.
13:54:09 <AnMaster> gray with a slight hint of blue or maybe display sucks
13:55:19 <ehird> http://imgur.com/KiYub.png
13:55:24 <ehird> Dull green, whatever.
13:55:49 <ehird> If that looks blue to you, I am *so* getting the IPS screen.
13:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what monitor I bring it up on
13:56:15 <AnMaster> it is more greenish on desktop than on laptop
13:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it is quite a neutral grey on laptop, the blue tint is very very slight
13:58:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and with the colours that icon has on the desktop I couldn't live with it. On the laptop it turns out quite acceptable though
13:59:14 <AnMaster> kind of ironic since assuming you are still on that mac the greenish tint is probably more correct
13:59:29 <ehird> Yes, it is. It also looks green on the shitty 2006 TN LCD.
13:59:43 <ehird> Which makes even mid grey indistinguishable from white.
13:59:57 <ehird> So wow, either your laptop just has really shitty viewing angles, or its display is uber-terrible.
14:00:08 <ehird> Hey, fading on hover over the OSD notifications works now.
14:00:12 <AnMaster> gimp colour picker places it at around #bfc0ac
14:00:21 <ehird> Oh, of course; enabling Normal effects to turn on Compiz must enable that too.
14:00:25 <AnMaster> which is more of a slightly yellow/green tint
14:00:57 <ehird> I see no yellow at all.
14:01:09 <ehird> Well, okay, a tiny bit.
14:01:52 <AnMaster> that wound quite a lot more yellow than green as far as I can work out
14:02:25 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact it is more yellow-green on desktop than green I'd say
14:03:17 <ehird> "Experts predict that the penultimate catastrophe will occur at approximately 7:15 p.m. Thursday night, when the social networking tool Twitter will be used to communicate a series of ideas so banal they will instantaneously negate the three centuries of the Renaissance."
14:03:19 <ehird> -- http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nadir_of_western_civilization_to?utm_source=a-section
14:03:31 <ehird> (Also featured: The best ending line to an Onion article ever (but don't skip there, it won't make any sense.))
14:09:50 <AnMaster> comparing the colour palette in gimp shown when this colour is selected shows that desktop has more vibrant colours and also differs fastly. There is even a slight hint of bands on the laptop... Makes me suspect some X setting is wrong...
14:10:20 <ehird> Or Lenovo are just making shittier laptops as time goes on. :P
14:10:23 <AnMaster> and the palette is definitely yellowish
14:10:44 <AnMaster> where would I find out colour depth without a xorg.conf...
14:11:01 <ehird> The display in physical, or settings?
14:11:08 <ehird> It's almost certainly set to 24 or 32 bit; ask GNOME.
14:11:27 <ehird> Huh; System > Preferences -> Display doesn't actually have the colour depth.
14:11:37 <ehird> Also, apparently my display is "Laptop 20".
14:11:40 <ehird> Not sure how it came to that conclusion.
14:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, mobile cpu? mobile gpu?
14:12:11 <AnMaster> using internal connection, not external one (at least that is what hardware claims I bet
14:14:06 <AnMaster> indeed xpdyinfo claims 24 bit depth for both desktop and laptop
14:14:22 <ehird> *xdpyinfo; that was hard to parse...
14:14:26 <ehird> AnMaster: It'll just be uncalibrated.
14:14:39 <ehird> (But calibration is a bitch IME; I'm no good at telling whether those lines blend in with the background.)
14:14:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah probably. Now to find out how to calibrate under ubuntu
14:15:18 <ehird> Add/Remove shows "DisplayCalibrator".
14:15:23 <ehird> I just searched for "calibrate" in All.
14:15:29 <ehird> DisplayCalibrator is a GNUstep application to calibrate the gamma of your display
14:15:32 <ehird> Okay, forget that.
14:15:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:15:49 <ehird> Since apparently it's a frontend to that. Although there's more to calibrati- I'll just google.
14:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, xgamma is just a command line too
14:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, and indeed there is more to calibration
14:16:17 <ehird> "[edit] A list of Linux color-managed applications"
14:16:23 <ehird> Mostly graphics applications.
14:16:30 <ehird> tl;dr: Linux ain't gonna calibrate no colours consistently.
14:16:49 <AnMaster> even to basic manual calibration without trying to figure it out fully
14:16:58 <ehird> http://ads.linuxfoundation.org/www/delivery/ai.php?filename=training_ad_v1.jpg&contenttype=jpeg ;; proposal to ban the linux foundation from advertising.
14:17:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well I used an icc profile generated back on windows with gentoo iirc.
14:17:10 <ehird> AND WE DON'T MEAN POPCORN HURRRR GRUNGY LETTERS
14:18:31 <ehird> (Who even thinks of "popcorn" when they think kernel? At least anyone who'd ever see that.)
14:19:27 <AnMaster> what has popcorn got to do with the word kernel?
14:20:04 <ehird> http://www.answers.com/kernel
14:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird, kgamma seems like better than nothing
14:20:49 <ehird> Ah, K-naming. Anyone remember when every GNOME app had a g in it (and preferably a gn)
14:20:55 <ehird> That was ridiculous.
14:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, seems it mainly needs reducing blue a bit to begin with.
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14:23:16 <AnMaster> would need a bit more blue for dark grays though
14:23:19 <ehird> "Anybody mind describing that? I'm blind." -- Linux Hater's Blog comment
14:23:35 <ehird> Well that's a good way to make the comments section feel awkward. Nobody wants to troll right after a blind guy.
14:26:34 <ehird> I wonder if Debian's switched to eglibc yet.
14:26:41 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, have you joined 600 channels yet?
14:26:49 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:27:17 <AnMaster> ehird, been over it at times, atm below it, 593
14:27:29 <ehird> Do you realise you never look at 90% of those?
14:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I do. Do you think I'm only chatting in one channel at a time?
14:28:16 <ehird> You're chatting in 593 channels at a time?
14:28:20 <AnMaster> there is a percentage that is low activity, like #opers
14:28:34 <AnMaster> ehird, of course not, but often 3 or 4 at once
14:28:40 <ehird> Not looking at 90% is still looking at 59 channels, which is of course more than you look at.
14:29:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you realise that there are commands called /join and /part for looking at different sets of channels at different times...?
14:29:05 <AnMaster> ehird, which is just completely nonsense
14:29:12 <FireFly> How many channels are you on at freenode?
14:29:24 <ehird> FireFly: He's in the extended maximum, I believe.
14:29:44 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm let me check. Guess I'll pipe the relevant lines from /whois into wc
14:30:29 <FireFly> [15:30:03] AnMaster is away: sleeping
14:30:32 <AnMaster> 76 if one is to believe wc but I think that is a bit more
14:30:42 <AnMaster> FireFly, typoed command I believe
14:30:44 <ehird> FireFly: Hey, when AnMaster says "night" he doesn't leave either. Give the guy a break, he's just fucking with us.
14:33:36 <AnMaster> well that is slightly less off colours, however the icons look worse. I guess I'll have to retune them to more neutral gray
14:33:56 <AnMaster> (and same for desktop bg colour and some other stuff
14:36:12 <ehird> Oh look, ATI released a new Radeon series.
14:36:20 <ehird> "According to AMD, the new Radeon HD 5870 offers 544 double-precision GFLOPS of processing power."
14:36:28 <ehird> I'm so getting four.
14:37:37 <AnMaster> ehird, now use those in that helmer 3
14:38:16 <ehird> "and if every cards have 2 TFLOPS, this is 432 TFLOPS"
14:38:23 <ehird> He's using the GTX 295, then.
14:38:27 <ehird> This is just the fastest single GPU card.
14:38:40 <ehird> Well, the GTX 295 doesn't break 2 TFLOPS, I think.
14:39:01 <ehird> The Nvidia Tesla S870 is 2074 GFLOPS.
14:39:15 <ehird> That's a "GPU Computing Server"; i.e. a single thing.
14:39:35 <ehird> GTX 295 gets 1788 GFLOPS.
14:39:47 <AnMaster> right, so using the one you mentioned would be worse
14:39:54 <AnMaster> why then sound so excited at it
14:39:58 <ehird> The GTX 295 has TWO GPUs
14:40:12 <AnMaster> lets wait for the same but two
14:40:19 <ehird> We'll see a 5870 X2 sometime, probably.
14:40:27 <AnMaster> ehird, why not x4 while we are at it
14:40:39 <ehird> Because people won't pay $2,000 for a gaming card.
14:41:14 <ehird> "If humans tasted like bacon I would kill and eat them so I see no harm." --reddit
14:41:43 <AnMaster> and why are we still going along this design, wouldn't rethinking it and going along similar lines that those raytracers in FPGAs did be better. With the budget of nvidia on that rather than the (relative to nvidia) small research budget...
14:42:15 <ehird> Because FPGAs are slow.
14:42:26 <ehird> Also, that raytracer's FPGA was just a scheduler.
14:42:38 <ehird> The actual tracing was done on an 8-core machine.
14:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on which one you are thinking about
14:43:15 <AnMaster> ehird, not that one I'm considering
14:43:30 <ehird> Sorry for not being telepathic :P
14:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~woop/rpu/RPU_SIGGRAPH05.pdf
14:44:57 <ehird> 4.6MB? Holy huge PDF batman.
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14:45:18 <AnMaster> ehird, pictures in it. Example renderings
14:45:43 <ehird> Wish Poppler let you use the host's font settings; I can't really read this badly-kerned, grey-antialiased text.
14:45:49 <AnMaster> and zooming those rendering doesn't look pixelated
14:46:02 <ehird> Argh, and Evince still can't copy text from columns individually (not that I wanted to copy anything).
14:46:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Did I say pixelated?
14:46:23 <AnMaster> but "why those images are so huge"
14:46:24 <ehird> Oh, the renderings.
14:46:56 <ehird> Yes, they are pixelated.
14:46:56 <ehird> No antialiasing there.
14:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, um I mean as in you can zoom them and they still look ok due to being stored at high dpi due to being down scaled screenshots but with all the image data still left in there
14:47:29 <ehird> Oh, I zoomed my screen.
14:47:36 <AnMaster> it may take a second or two for poppler to re-render the pic
14:47:52 <ehird> Indeed, they look good at 30)%.
14:48:41 <AnMaster> ehird, images in pdf are basically "insert this bitmap here, and make it fit in these dimensions". Thus they can end up like that, high dpi, good zoomable. But damn big pdf
14:49:18 <AnMaster> the technical drawings are mostly vector graphics
15:00:46 <AnMaster> ehird, so what do you think of the RPU?
15:00:54 <ehird> Didn't really read it.
15:02:07 <AnMaster> the main issue with the prototype was limited memory bandwidth it seems. They list some suggestions for how to improve that part at the end.
15:02:18 <AnMaster> sounds like it has a great potential
15:06:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:06:47 <ais523> the suggested fix for the multiple beeps at shutdown problem was "$ echo "blacklist pcspkr" | sudo tee -a /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf"
15:06:57 <ais523> presumably in a startup or shutdown script somewhere
15:07:08 <ehird> erm, or just in general?
15:07:10 <ais523> in other words; don't fix the cause, just tell the kernel to fix the symptoms
15:07:13 <AnMaster> isn't /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf preserved?
15:07:25 <ehird> ais523: it's an okay temporary fix, though
15:07:36 <ais523> as I dislike the speaker altogether
15:07:41 <ais523> but it's still ridiculous
15:07:53 <ehird> the Monkey Island II theme was the epitome of PC speaker usage
15:08:04 <ehird> everything afterwards is folly.
15:08:48 <AnMaster> ais523, why not just trace what process make the relevant system call
15:08:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it's the kernel?
15:09:11 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, I know what process it is
15:09:17 <ais523> it's about 9 or 10 instances of shutdown(8)
15:09:25 <AnMaster> ehird, can still trace it, but unlikely considering where it happens
15:09:28 <ais523> the real problem is, wtf is shutdown running that many times?
15:09:45 <ais523> and so far the commenters to the bug seem to have ignored that issue
15:09:49 <AnMaster> ais523, that explains the multiple shut down messages I see. But why is shutdown beeping at all?
15:09:58 <ehird> ais523: because you reported the noise as the problem, presumably
15:10:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it does that...
15:10:13 <ehird> at least it does on all machines with a PC speaker I've used
15:10:24 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure it can be turned off somewhere.
15:10:53 <ehird> (re Monkey Island II theme on a PC speaker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DLoSAb1-bc)
15:11:07 <ais523> AnMaster: shutdown(8) always beeps
15:11:15 <ais523> I'm not sure if it has an option not to
15:11:23 <ais523> if it doesn't, it should probably be added
15:11:26 <ehird> probably an xml config file these days
15:11:43 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't seem so. Still silent shutdowns would seem like a high priority feature for many notebook users
15:12:03 <AnMaster> -q, --quiet reduce output to errors only
15:12:08 <ehird> Who the hell shuts down a notebook?
15:12:21 <ais523> ehird: I do, when I update the kernel
15:12:32 <ais523> also, sometimes when I have no processes running, I shut down rather than hibernate
15:12:35 <ais523> because it feels cleaner
15:12:48 <ehird> ais523: when you update the kernel, it shuts down and beeps, okay
15:12:56 <ehird> you upgrade the kernel in situations where silence is appreciated?
15:13:03 <AnMaster> ehird, depends. Sometimes I do because I have HPET issues. Known regression. Ubuntu ppl doing nothing about it.
15:13:05 <ehird> "I sure am taking notes! As soon as this kernel upgrade finishes."
15:13:08 <ais523> yes, most commonly I do it in a shared computer lab
15:13:12 <ais523> where other people are working
15:13:21 <ehird> I'm sure that short beep will kill them :P
15:13:27 <ais523> well, it's annoying, not fatal
15:13:55 <AnMaster> symptoms: after long uptime (doesn't matter if it has been at S3 sleep in between) the system is going slower and slower unless there are interrupts like from moving the pointer around all the time.
15:14:12 <ehird> AnMaster: affects what?
15:14:17 <ehird> I'll make sure to avoid any such hardware
15:14:54 <AnMaster> ehird, intel mobile chipsets with HPET + dual core cpu
15:15:13 <ehird> Hmm... will that apply to all Core 2 hardware?
15:15:17 <ehird> (With an Intel mobo.)
15:15:28 <ehird> If so, WTF? There's no way that wasn't fixed in a day, that's a huge population of users.
15:16:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but you can workaround it with setting a different clock source than hpet, however that causes other problems, like lots of wakeups because the counter wraps very often or plain just not working
15:16:20 <AnMaster> still, it takes quite a bit for the effect to start showing up
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15:16:36 <ehird> I'd prefer lots of wakeups to sinister slowness.
15:16:41 <AnMaster> and due to the gradual nature it takes an hour or two more before you have to reboot it
15:17:11 <AnMaster> so it starts to set in something like 4-6 hours after boot (sleep not relevant here), depending on load
15:17:11 <ehird> Don't care, I want top performance all the time. :)
15:17:18 <AnMaster> seems to set in faster if the computer runs hotter
15:17:34 <ehird> 4-6 hours of being off or does sleep count add to it? (If so, wtf?)
15:18:03 <AnMaster> ehird, of being on. But sleep doesn't reset the effect as one would guess
15:18:30 <ais523> stupid not having an "undo close tab"
15:18:39 <ais523> I rely on that Firefox feature so much
15:18:39 <ehird> Firefox didn't have that for a while, I think.
15:18:43 <AnMaster> so what counts is total uptime that isn't in suspend to disk. Suspend to ram: "sometimes it seems to count, sometimes not"
15:18:54 <ehird> I think, at least.
15:18:56 <ais523> ehird: I imagine most sane browsers do nowadays
15:19:00 <ais523> actually, is this IE8 or IE7?
15:19:03 <ais523> I don't know how to tell
15:19:13 <ehird> ais523: Uh, look at About.
15:19:18 <ehird> It's in that menu. Or the other one.
15:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it seems "intel mobile 4 series chipset" is most affected.
15:19:23 <ais523> recent versions of IE don't have a menu bar
15:19:41 <AnMaster> though from reading the bug there was people that was much worse affected than me
15:19:47 <ais523> it's behind the little >> icon in the top-right corner of the toolbar
15:19:51 <AnMaster> ehird, alternative is using a kernel older than 2.6.21 iirc
15:19:51 <ehird> IE 7 is pretty bad
15:20:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Or using the non-precise clock and accepting the wakeups
15:20:40 <ehird> [[With a Linux kernel, you need the newer "rtc-cmos" hardware clock device driver rather than the original "rtc" driver.]]
15:20:47 <ehird> Or does it happen anyway?
15:21:31 <AnMaster> ehird, clocksource=acpi_pm seems to work for me
15:22:14 <ehird> So, in conclusion Linux has a serious bug affecting a massive portion of users with a crippling, invisible-at-first effect and nothing is being done about it.
15:22:20 <ehird> Is it the year of the Linux desktop yet?
15:22:26 <AnMaster> and rtc interface to userspace isn't relevant as far as I could find out. Oh and pretty sure ubuntu uses the new one anyway (messing up alsa in 2.6.28 as a result, fixed in later versions)
15:23:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not all mobile chipset users seems affected. And it was mobile chipset. So yeah year of linux desktop, but not linux laptop
15:23:57 <ehird> Desktops are a dying breed, though.
15:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, lots of gamers will disagree with that
15:24:40 <ehird> There are beefy gaming weighttops, actually.
15:24:52 <ehird> But yes, it's separating into notebooks, gaming machines and workstations, I think.
15:25:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what about tiny pc cases ones? Like found in computer rooms at unis and such. (lab rooms tends to have workstation style computers instead)
15:26:05 <ehird> Probably eliminated in future as every student has a notebook anyway.
15:26:13 <ehird> Alternatively, we'll all regress to Athena and use thin clients!
15:26:18 <ehird> (Note: Not actuall happening.)
15:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird, far from. Maybe 30-40% does as far as I have seen
15:26:46 <ehird> Then I'd say your university is abnormal.
15:27:04 <ehird> But really, I think if you read your university's material it'll say "Get a laptop, dammit".
15:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, they can't really say that considering the bad wlan coverage in some of the buildings
15:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway desktop keyboards tends to be nicer to type on, and monitors easier to work at. Are you predicting a future for docking station + monitor + keyboard + mouse?
15:31:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Surprisingly, the general population don't give a shit: they're sitting at horrible 16"-18" Acer laptops with a damn number pad and an uber-glossy 16:9 screen.
15:31:38 <ais523> laptops with a numpad?
15:31:42 <ehird> Or if they are of the budget nature, a 15" without a numpad.
15:31:45 <ehird> ais523: It's the trend nowadays.
15:32:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Awful trackpad.
15:32:03 <ehird> It is simply the current reality.
15:32:36 <ehird> The hoi polloi love their shitty "media" laptops, and that's enough for future dominance. Desktop machines in offices might last a while longer.
15:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird, at uni btw it seems like dell, hp and acer are most common, a few thinkpads. plus one or two macbooks
15:32:51 <ehird> But fwiw, I don't think my ThinkPad keyboard will be anything but great.
15:33:05 <coppro> :( uber-glossy 16:9 screens
15:33:07 <ehird> At least, I prefer their style to the keyboards I've used. Scissor-switch is great.
15:33:22 <AnMaster> the macs however are all configured to share everything over zeroconf. For some unknown reason
15:33:23 <ehird> AnMaster: The student population is a bit different.
15:33:32 <fizzie> Here's the "advertised on the front page, 'back to school' cheapo-Acer" from the local computer retailer: http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/87052_02.jpg -- it indeed has a numpad there.
15:33:35 <ehird> Also, *everything*?
15:33:54 <AnMaster> but stuff like itunes control, printers and what not
15:33:55 <ehird> fizzie: That's EXACTLY the bullshit that's so common.
15:34:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Like, with no password?
15:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I never decided to go that far. I only listened passively at the broadcasts
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15:34:53 <ehird> "Man, this current playing track title is awesome."
15:34:54 <AnMaster> with the client in ubuntu for it
15:35:42 <ehird> It seems the 4:3 notebook is totally dead, anyway.
15:35:54 <ehird> So I'm not really happy about the forthcoming notebook dominance.
15:36:01 <AnMaster> the macbooks all tend to be in those small group rooms (not sure of English term) at least from what I seen walking around.
15:36:13 <ehird> 18" 16:9 heavy uberglossies are in basically all respects inferior to desktops.
15:36:19 <fizzie> Ooh, a Vista laptop with 1 GB (minus whatever you use for graphics) of memory. That sounds like a good configuration.
15:36:31 <ehird> fizzie: 3GB is an oddly popular configuration for cheapies over here
15:36:46 <ehird> Especially when pared with things like 1.7GHz processors that will be slow as shit anyway
15:37:07 <AnMaster> ehird, um. get a large enough notebook with high enough dpi
15:37:18 <ais523> 16:9 gives a bigger screen size statistic for the cost of the screen
15:37:25 <ais523> diagonal measurement isn't really a good way to measure...
15:37:26 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it'd be a squintweighttop.
15:37:33 <AnMaster> ais523, why would producing a 16:9 be cheaper??
15:37:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it's smaller...
15:37:47 <ehird> ais523: Indeed. 16:9 is also unusable for any purposes other than movie-watching.
15:37:50 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on font settings. If it was a mac it could work
15:37:57 <ehird> AnMaster: No it couldn't?
15:37:59 <ehird> What lead you to that conclusion?
15:38:07 <ais523> AnMaster: because a 16:9 has a smaller area for the same diagonal measurement
15:38:16 <ehird> Macs don't even have a permanent DPI setting without using the command line, and it fucks up the GUI.
15:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, good dpi handling, vector icons
15:38:28 <ehird> Macs also don't use vector icons...
15:38:30 <ais523> ehird: my usual programming setup on my 16:9 is two 80-column emacs panes side by side
15:38:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I though mac laptops were very high dpi?
15:38:39 <ais523> it works quite well for that
15:38:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Apple claims their engineers found that 100ppi is the perfect size for a screen, or something.
15:38:48 <ehird> AnMaster: No, 120ppi or thereabouts.
15:38:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, so say 120 ppi then
15:39:11 <AnMaster> also how can 100 ppi be perfect *size?
15:39:16 <ehird> 1280x800 for 13"; that's ordinary. 1440x900 for 15"; that's ordinary. 1920x1200 for 17"; that's common in the more expensive workstationtops.
15:40:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so if you want a desktop you get a workstation in the future? Doesn't sound too bad except for the price
15:40:23 <ehird> If you want a desktop you should almost certainly buy a good notebook.
15:40:30 <ehird> And plug in a display if you really want to.
15:40:59 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on reasons for desktop. heavy 3D modelling needing FPGAs?
15:41:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you don't want a desktop, you want a workstation.
15:41:27 <ehird> So buy one; they're hardly going away.
15:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what if I want a mainframe?
15:42:15 <ehird> "Video: Intel's four-screen laptop prototype hands-on"
15:42:18 <AnMaster> damn, I was hoping for "I will buy it for your next birthday" or something ;P
15:42:24 <ehird> On the other hand, maybe reconsider buying that workstation.
15:42:33 <ehird> (Admittedly the three other screens are tiny ones above the keyboard.)
15:42:44 <ais523> wow, Windows Live's losses were bigger than their revenue last year
15:42:45 <ehird> (F---- would not be in awe at headline again.)
15:42:50 <ais523> more than -100% profit!
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15:43:12 <ehird> I wish he'd stop doing that.
15:43:27 <ehird> A+++++++++++++++, F-------------, you know, eBay ratings.
15:44:18 <ehird> Oh, when I talked about the market splitting up I forgot netbooks.
15:44:36 <ehird> Netbooks being that abominable, ever-changing category of "computer we can build for cheap, or even not so cheap nowadays".
15:46:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> A+++++++++++++++, F-------------, you know, eBay ratings. <-- now I do
15:46:22 <ehird> "A++++++ EXCELLENT SELLER FAST DELIVERY WOULD BUY AGAIN" is a typical eBay feedback without exaggeration.
15:46:49 <ais523> is it more or less sensible than YouTube comments?
15:47:12 <ehird> Uh, it's definitely less varied.
15:47:20 <AnMaster> what does A and F stand for here?
15:47:43 <ehird> Obligatory: http://www.bash.org/?199355
15:47:50 <ehird> AnMaster: US grades; well, I made up the F----- one.
15:47:50 -!- ais523 has quit ("Page closed").
15:47:58 <ehird> As in, school grades.
15:48:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so it isn't used on there?
15:48:22 <ehird> eBay users would give a glowing review of shitting on somebody's roof if the item ever got there.
15:48:30 <ehird> Erm. I worded that badly.
15:48:36 <ehird> eBay users would give a glowing review of the sller shitting on their roof if the item ever got there.
15:49:32 <AnMaster> why do people still use ebay then if that is the expectation?
15:50:18 <ehird> People use eBay to buy and sell things.
15:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean "<ehird> eBay users would give a glowing review of the sller shitting on their roof if the item ever got there." sound like most of the time the item is never even delivered ?
15:51:14 <ehird> I never said that, did I?
15:51:14 <ehird> You read an awful lot of things into messages.
15:52:02 <AnMaster> well, the logic was that "reason for people to give glowing review just because the item is at some point delivered..." "Hm sounds like expectations are quite low then..." "That seems to indicate that usually things are quite bad"
15:52:21 <ehird> See, that's not what I said at all.
15:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, then I suggest clarifying what you said
15:52:35 <ehird> What I said implies that eBay users give positive feedback much more than negative or neutral.
15:52:42 <ehird> It was perfectly clear, your brain just took it and ran with it.
15:53:23 <AnMaster> no it wasn't perfectly clear. Maybe it was to you, because you know what you intended. "if the item ever got there" sounds like "usually it doesn't"
15:53:52 <ehird> This is only confusing to you, you know.
15:55:03 <AnMaster> well, I'm the only other person actively talking atm. So yeah. But that means 50% too according to that metric.
15:56:04 <ehird> ITT AnMaster refuses to interpret that as "nobody else here would be confused by that".
15:56:43 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no statistical evidence for either claim atm
15:57:30 <ehird> The only way that sentence could be more obnoxious was if its contents were "[citation needed]" instead.
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16:28:01 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know what might cause CentOS to pick a screen frequency output that the screen can't actually display?
16:28:18 <AnMaster> ais523, why would I know anything about centos
16:28:34 <ais523> I thought you might know enough about Linux distros in general to have an idea
16:28:35 <AnMaster> I have seen it over ssh on servers, and from that it is like fedora but way worse
16:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, what sort of thing is it selecting then?
16:28:55 <ais523> the computer here in my new office has CentOS and Windows 7 installed
16:29:17 <ais523> CentOS boots, but you can't see anything on the screen because the screen can't display the video mode it selects (the frequency's too high)
16:29:19 <AnMaster> should probably be auto detected if not explicitly set
16:29:23 <ais523> and Windows 7 only boots in safe mode
16:29:37 <AnMaster> ais523, was it like that from the beginning?!
16:29:41 <ais523> and either way, I can't log on because I don't know my username/password yet
16:29:46 <ais523> AnMaster: that's the state that I've come to the computer in
16:29:50 <ais523> I have no idea what happened to it before
16:30:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and no clue. try looking at xorg.conf from linux vt
16:30:42 <ais523> the text mode doesn't display either
16:31:04 <ais523> (nor change boot parameters to boot in single-user mode)
16:31:49 <AnMaster> ais523, text mode doesn't display? try changing the boot parameters in grub
16:32:04 <ehird> CentOS is like Fedora but way worse? What's wrong with Fedora?
16:32:11 <AnMaster> ais523, can't really help you when you can't access anything on it
16:32:15 <ehird> Besides, CentOS is primarily a server thing, so I don't know why it's on that computer.
16:32:15 <ais523> ehird: you can be worse than something else without the something else being bad
16:32:21 <ais523> ehird: remote management, I imagine
16:32:23 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but the way he said it...
16:32:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I mentioned that a few times before, even to the point of you complaining about me mentioning too often
16:32:58 <AnMaster> thus I do not intend to repeat it again
16:33:06 <ehird> ...what are you talking about? Mentioned what?
16:33:21 <AnMaster> ehird, why fedora and RHEL sucks
16:33:49 <ehird> I don't recall conducting some sort of ask-AnMaster-why-Fedora-sucks campaign; you're terribly paranoid about me.
16:33:57 <ehird> fwiw, Linus uses Fedora.
16:34:03 <ais523> AnMaster: you're going to say RPM, aren't you?
16:34:29 <ehird> RPM is bad, but you don't really see it with yum... which is quite annoying but not exactly sucking.
16:34:47 <ehird> ais523: but how misguided to think he'll say anything at all; he's protesting against my evil Fedora questioning campaign.
16:34:50 <ais523> how does it compare to apt?
16:35:04 <ehird> yum is fairly average. I remember having a problem with it but don't recall.
16:35:32 <ehird> Still, yum is to rpm what apt is to dpkg, and only rpm actually sucks.
16:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, centos tends to be incredibly outdated and have rather small repos too. In my experience.
16:35:44 <ehird> I don't really care what dpkg is like, so I don't really care what rpm is like with yum.
16:36:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I like how you said to without anything about Fedora beforehand, thus your sentence seems to add on to nothing
16:36:20 <AnMaster> "I like how you said to without anything about Fedora beforehand, thus your sentence seems to add on to nothing"
16:36:52 <ehird> My grammar was perfectly fine.
16:37:00 <ais523> rather unusual, it took me about 10 seconds to parse
16:37:03 <ehird> *said "to" might make it a bit clearer.
16:37:11 <ehird> I didn't realise I omitted the quotes.
16:37:15 <ehird> With the quotes it's a perfectly sundry sentence.
16:37:43 <ais523> hmm... nobody seems to be reading the Enigma forums any more
16:37:53 <ais523> Warrigal: you used to be really active there
16:38:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> With the quotes it's a perfectly sundry sentence. <-- yes indeed
16:38:09 <ehird> It uses disk space and bandwidth!
16:38:20 <ehird> He's obviously been told to be more tight-lipped.
16:39:13 <ehird> what amuses me is that a free forum host would be simply superior to the current Enigma forums (faster, much more bandwidth and database space, perhaps even easier to keep despammed)
16:39:36 <ehird> oh, and cheaper ofc
16:40:44 <ais523> on the other hand, Enigma itself seems to be actively developed; there are hundreds of repo changes since 2 days ago
16:41:31 <ehird> that sounds *over*developed
16:41:41 <ehird> " Since Enigma 0.92 the current Enigma team is focussing the development on independent, new and state of art features. Compatibility issues are out of focus."
16:41:55 <ehird> I read that with compatibility=platform compatibility
16:41:58 <ehird> and was scratching my head...
16:42:22 <ais523> ehird: many of them are things like art changes
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16:42:35 <ehird> still, you can't do hundreds of changes of work in two days
16:42:38 <ais523> and no, it's compatibility with past games like Esprit and Oxyd they mean
16:42:48 <ais523> and hundreds of changes is easy, IMO
16:42:53 <ais523> as long as they're small and scattered
16:43:10 <ais523> it looks like they autoconfiscated it
16:43:15 <ais523> or at least upgraded the autoconf
16:43:19 <ais523> and that's probably done lots of changes automatically
16:43:49 <ehird> it used autoconf before (nice verb there btw)
16:44:01 <ehird> gonna have to use that one
16:44:17 <ais523> ehird: "autoconfiscate" is standard, IIRC
16:44:29 <ehird> it wasn't a pun on autoconf + confiscate?
16:44:48 <ehird> "i do not consider
16:44:48 <ehird> myself a professional player and i seriously doubt there are any 'professional' players
16:44:48 <ehird> who play enigma and make money by playing enigma." --illmind, aka captain obvious
16:45:14 <ais523> oh, looks like it's in the Jargon File: http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/autoconfiscate.html
16:45:45 <ehird> ais523: esr likely made it up one day, then
16:46:05 <ehird> http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/autobogotiphobia.html ;; he definitely made the preceding entry up
16:46:20 <ais523> but just being published there probably made more people inclined to use it
16:46:22 <ehird> I'd check the original File, but it predates the woeful time of autoconf.
16:46:39 <ehird> [[ Automatically, but in a way that, for some reason (typically because it is too complicated, or too ugly, or perhaps even too trivial), the speaker doesn't feel like explaining to you. See magic. The C-INTERCAL compiler generates C, then automagically invokes cc(1) to produce an executable.]]
16:46:44 <ehird> First thought: Hey, a C-INTERCAL shoutout.
16:46:51 <ehird> Second thought: Oh wait, he's fellating his own ego.
16:47:11 <ais523> that's a stupid method of automagically
16:47:16 <ais523> it was much more fun making it work on DOS
16:47:23 <ehird> Yes, exec() is very magical.
16:47:25 <ais523> needed info here is that DOS has a 127-character limit on command lines
16:47:35 <ais523> so in the end, I ended up with a wrapper shellscript
16:48:00 <ais523> (the DOS version of gcc accepts @filename.txt to specify arguments via a file rather than the command line)
16:49:02 <ais523> hmm... what do you call something which is an alpha in terms of feature-completeness, but where the developers made efforts to package it for general usage?
16:49:13 <ais523> and therefore is sort-of like an RC, but based on an alpha rather than something you plan to release?
16:50:27 <ehird> "Intel announces 22nm chips for 2011"
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16:59:03 <ehird> "Mozilla has announced that it plans to bring Office 2007's Ribbon interface to Firefox"
16:59:05 <ehird> that is so not appropriate
16:59:49 <ais523> ehird: the title's just lying
17:00:00 <ais523> someone drew a ribbon on Firefox as a mockup of what it would look like
17:00:03 <ais523> and the picture was misinterpreted
17:00:10 <ais523> and not all ideas go everywhere
17:00:19 <ehird> link to it anyway?
17:01:01 <ais523> I don't have the link, I'm just going by the comments on that reddit article
17:01:11 <ais523> you could get the link more easily than me, therefore
17:01:20 <ais523> because presumably you have the article open
17:01:27 <ehird> Yes. It has no such thing.
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17:21:24 * Warrigal looks up and sees a streak of over four hours of nothing but AnMaster plus four lines.
17:21:52 <ehird> you're ignoring ais523 too?
17:22:08 <AnMaster> Warrigal, you are ignoring ais as well as ehird I gather?
17:22:20 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out how on earth ais523 is objectionable enough to ignore.
17:22:27 <Warrigal> That streak ends before ais begins talking.
17:23:08 <oerjan> ehird: must be the condescending elitist manner of perfection
17:23:23 <ehird> ais523 has one of those? :P
17:24:02 <oerjan> he's _earned money_ on esoteric work dammit
17:24:15 <ehird> well yes, that's quite upsetting.
17:27:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: steve's insurance cannot be cheap
17:28:05 <ehird> I'd imagine he's not very endangered inside a coffin
17:28:48 <oerjan> i wouldn't bet on that
17:29:25 <ehird> bad movie idea: the stingray... is back... FOR ANOTHER BITE
17:30:47 <oerjan> not the same steve. dmm's proof: their wives spell their names differently
17:31:10 <ehird> how can you spell steve irwin differently?
17:31:16 <ehird> or am I missing a joke..
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18:50:15 <impomatic> Some websites give some weird errors. E.g. the fail whale and fail banana. Or "Something's broken, why don't you go out to play for a while"
18:51:21 <ehird> The best error page is one that causes your browser to segfault.
18:51:26 <ehird> Be a man and stop clicking broken links.
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19:08:14 <impomatic> I never click broken links. I navigate by hacking URLs
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19:22:50 <Gracenotes> ugh. I tried clam chowder soup today. I try it every couple of months to see if I like it. Every time the answer is "fuck no", and I throw out half of it. (the other half I spend thinking of those poor clams)
19:23:07 <Gracenotes> clam chowder, why do you seduce me so :(
19:23:21 <pikhq> I suspect you are getting bad clam chowder.
19:23:31 <pikhq> Since clam chowder is delicious.
19:24:25 <Gracenotes> I have tried clam chowder from various sources. I say, meh.
19:25:12 <pikhq> Perhaps you should stick to other delicious things, such as delicious, delicious curry.
19:26:35 * pikhq may need to make some curry tonight.
19:27:41 <ehird> You know, the main horrific thing about GLib is its class definition.
19:27:47 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/GObject_example.png ;; awful
19:28:01 <ehird> Seriously, that's basically the same as:
19:28:07 <ehird> """The size of the file in bytes, or zero."""
19:28:17 <ehird> Or if we want to be more typed:
19:28:29 <ehird> /** The size of the file in bytes, or zero. */
19:28:34 <ehird> uint64 file_size = 0;
19:29:00 <ehird> ensure(>= 0, < UINT64_MAX);
19:29:18 <pikhq> When your object system is more painful than C++'s, you fail at objects forever.
19:29:32 <ehird> pikhq: The object *system* is fine, just not the interface.
19:29:43 <pikhq> Totally what I meant to say.
19:30:09 <pikhq> There is none that I meant.
19:30:21 <ehird> Proof that GObject doesn't have to be horrible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(programming_language)
19:31:49 <pikhq> Writing GObject in C is about as awful as writing C++ classes in C would be.
19:34:51 <pikhq> Hmm. Vala seems nice, though.
19:37:52 <ehird> Yah. 'S what I'ma write my IRC client in.
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19:39:05 <pikhq> I suggest that GNOME kill C in favor of Vala. It seems to make GTK a sane and reasonable library...
19:39:24 <ehird> For the applications, agreed. Although C# with Gtk# is becoming popular.
19:39:46 <ehird> For GObject libraries, C is probably better since you have seemingly more direct control over the object system itself, I think.
19:39:50 <ehird> Although I'm not sure.
19:40:07 <pikhq> C is obviously going to be seeing use at least in parts of the libraries.
19:40:11 <ehird> Vala is a little unstable; releases seem to happen very often.
19:40:46 <ehird> pikhq: And the reference counting is a downside in some cases.
19:41:55 <ehird> Making this a GNOME app and library is killing me; so hard to resist the urge to start coding on the backend and read the Gnome HIG and design an interface instead. :)
20:22:22 <ehird> http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1857&aid=-1
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23:26:42 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> ugh. I tried clam chowder soup today. I try it every couple of months to see if I like it. Every time the answer is "fuck no", and I throw out half of it. (the other half I spend thinking of those poor clams)
23:26:52 <oerjan> i think i see your problem there.
23:27:00 <oerjan> hint: it's in the second sentence.
23:27:50 <Gracenotes> you never know. I didn't like mushrooms too much until I had them buried in Chinese food sauce
23:31:18 <Ilari> If some food tastes bad, check that it has enough fat in it. Fat tastes good. But OTOH, High-Fat High-Carbohydrate food probably isn't very healthy...
23:33:40 <oerjan> i'm not sure they breed clams for leanness, but you never know...
23:34:53 <ehird> Ilari: that's a rather odd formula; are you suggesting fat = taste? :P
23:35:07 <oerjan> this year there was an article in a norwegian newspaper that our lambs are now so lean that the national dish (sheep in cabbage) is getting tasteless
23:35:26 <Ilari> Well, Butter, olive oil or coconut oil is good way to add fats if you aren't sure...
23:35:57 <ehird> Bacon's probably the best way to add fat, because you also add bacon.
23:35:58 <oerjan> otoh given the special taste of sheep fat, some suggested that may not be all bad for its popularity...
23:38:19 <oerjan> Ilari: you need to work on your english articles. and i say that only because your english otherwise seems perfect to me.
23:39:39 <ehird> it's too perfect. Ilari is clearly unamerican and therefore a terrorist.
23:41:01 <ehird> he hasn't denied it, it must be true.
23:41:35 <oerjan> but a terrorist _would_ deny it. until after the bomb.
23:42:03 <Ilari> ... Or something else very nasty. :->
23:42:13 <ehird> Ilari: i'm scared now
23:42:20 <ehird> what, exactly, is this nasty thing
23:42:30 <oerjan> bombs, planes, crab infestation...
23:42:37 <oerjan> the possibilities are endless
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23:46:27 <Ilari> Or a certain reassortment between H1N1 and HPAI A/H5N1 ("Bird flu"). Probably that combination either produces nonviable virus or something Nasty^(N+1).
23:47:17 <ehird> Ilari: you know, please don't do that, kay?
23:47:26 <Ilari> No idea which, IIRC, nobody has tried and nobody with resources to do it is crazy enough to try
23:48:24 <oerjan> most terrorists probably don't want to hit their _own_ population too hard
23:50:18 <oerjan> hm reassortments of influenza switch between 8 parts, don't they. so you only have to try 254 combinations.
23:50:54 <Ilari> Some combinations are more likely to produce something REALLY Nasty if they happen to work.
23:51:56 <oerjan> assuming the part that makes H1N1 really infective isn't the same part as what makes H5N1 really deadly
23:52:09 <ehird> Ilari: either you learn really fast, or have way too much time on your hands :)
23:53:13 <oerjan> or possibly he reads news. it's not like this stuff wasn't plastered everywhere a few months ago
23:53:45 <ehird> did the news talk about mixing flus for great evil?
23:54:24 <oerjan> yes, albeit by accident
23:55:20 <Ilari> Influenza is too unstable to be usable as (non-doomsday) biological weapon...
23:55:53 <oerjan> so, basically only north korea will have developed this stuff
23:57:27 <Ilari> And if one wants to make doomsday biological weapon out of influenza, wonder if some immune system exploit could be spiced in. Would likely really pump up the CFR...
23:58:21 <oerjan> the council of foreign relations? possibly.
23:58:39 <Ilari> Good such exploit and resistance to main antivirals -> ~100% CFR.
23:59:08 <ehird> he's using acronyms I don't understand, I conclude that this sstuff isn't from the news :P
23:59:19 <Ilari> CFR => Case Fatality Rate.
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23:59:44 <oerjan> ehird: i was nearly about to apply a case of fatal swatting there
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00:01:01 <oerjan> omniscience + slight speech error. clear signs of evil overlordness
00:02:18 <Ilari> Anyway... I'm sure some states that have or have had biological weapons program have developed some real nice stuff in practice.
00:04:18 <Ilari> Regarding fat... Any really nice "healthy eating" propaganda videos shown in school? :-)
00:04:47 <oerjan> ehird: hey you redid my beautiful subpage move, you scoundrel
00:05:04 <ehird> oerjan: yah, because subpages aren't enabled on the wiki
00:05:20 <ehird> and thus SNUSP/Extensions reads simply as that in English; i.e. "SNUSP or Extensions", which makes no sense.
00:05:42 <oerjan> i've seen pages named that way before, i had no idea they were anything special but i just tried to follow some tradition
00:05:55 <ehird> probably by noobs :P
00:06:07 <oerjan> of course wikipedia doesn't use / much either
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00:06:17 <ehird> in mediawiki if you enable subpages a grey, small, slightly indented link to the parent page appears below the title
00:06:23 <oerjan> lots of "History of bla bla bla " pages, e.g.
00:06:23 <ehird> i.e., giving them semantic meaning
00:06:26 <ehird> but it isn't neabled here
00:06:42 <ehird> oerjan: probably because hierarchies suck for organising.
00:06:43 <oerjan> lots of things aren't enabled :(
00:07:35 <ehird> the esolangs wiki is pretty sad... arbitrary Graue policies, old MediaWiki, spam filter issues, lots of stuff disabled...
00:09:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_India is one that comes to mind
00:09:28 <oerjan> that essentially _is_ hierarchical, just with words
00:09:43 <ehird> no, it's more fluid
00:10:00 <ehird> "History of Bar" where bar is an indian company could go in one of two places:
00:10:13 <ehird> or even, for a huge history section
00:10:23 <ehird> using words, you can simply use a phrase
00:10:33 <ehird> which eliminates the forced hierarchy
00:10:44 <oerjan> heh it's part of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_by_country series
00:10:47 <ehird> i mean, that thing could be Rail transport/History/India
00:10:51 <ehird> or History/India/Rail transport
00:10:55 <ehird> or India/Rail transport/History
00:10:59 <ehird> or India/History/Rail transport
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06:41:05 <immibis> Is it possible to combine XOR and NOT gates to make an AND gate?
06:41:53 <oerjan> NOT and XOR are both linear gates mod 2, you cannot get anything which isn't from that
06:42:37 <oerjan> AND-NOT? you mean NAND or NOR? if so yes, each of those can get everything and they are the only 2 to 1 gates which can
06:43:19 <immibis> AND-NOT = (A and (not B)) although i realize that either requires or implies AND to be possible.
06:43:50 <oerjan> A and (not B) is dual to A if B
06:44:38 <oerjan> if A then B = (not A) or B
06:45:44 <oerjan> there is actually a theory of what you can compose from given gates, known as post classes, i investigated that for an article which never got published
06:46:34 <oerjan> it's a somewhat complicated but very pretty theory
06:47:23 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post's_lattice
06:47:45 <oerjan> i don't recognize the notation for each class in wp though
06:50:22 <oerjan> A and (not B) is that T_0^infinity, i think
06:51:31 <oerjan> ah yes A and (not B) = not (if A then B), so that overstriked ->
06:52:54 <oerjan> XOR and NOT is what wp calls the class A
06:56:04 <oerjan> (except it uses equivalence and 0 for the base)
06:56:12 <oerjan> but i think that's equivalent
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10:03:28 <fizzie> "We hope make this a night that you want to forget but your colleagues will remind you of for the rest of your life." -- from the recently emailed note about the combi-Christmas-party for the three computer-science-related departments here.
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13:54:30 <ehird> so, wow, Ubuntu sucks at hibernation
13:54:49 <ehird> it takes about 30-45 seconds to hibernate, and about two minutes to go from grub to the previous state
13:56:49 <ehird> http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/23/intel-unveils-light-peak-10gbps-optical-interconnect-for-mobile/
14:30:05 <ehird> [[I act to mitigate, redesign, and occasionally destroy the offerings of users who think that a particular "breakthrough" or "notable idea" deserves more consideration than it has gotten in the academic world. Such grandstanding is forbidden by a variety of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (WP:V, WP:SOAP, WP:NOR, WP:FRINGE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:NOT, and WP:REDFLAG to name just a few). Wikipedia is inherently a non-innovative reference work: it stifles creativity
14:30:06 <ehird> and free-thought. If Wikipedia had been around at the time of Galileo, his ideas would have been subject to my incisive commentary and editorial braggadocio -- even if I agreed with him. I am a status quo promoter. NPOV-PUSHER.]]
14:30:18 <ehird> you'd think there'd be a way of explaining all that without sounding like a fascist dick.
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16:52:42 * ehird upgrades to Karmic Koala alpha
16:52:53 <ehird> What fun is Ubuntu without instability?!?!?!
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17:34:54 <ehird> Ubuntu upgrader, are you really removing Bitstream Vera?
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19:02:59 <ehird> My condensed impression of Ubutnu 9.10 "Karmic Koala" alpha 6: Hey, this is kinda cool. The bugs can probably be ironed out in three or four months, say, and this'll be a really polished new release. ...What do you mean, it's coming out next month?
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19:07:16 <fizzie> "Karma Koalamon", wasn't that some sort of old hit song.
19:08:13 <ehird> It certainly doesn't feel like this OS has been maturing for 26 years.
19:09:20 <ehird> Anyhow, I have discovered yet another form of joy only known to ridiculous programmers.
19:09:25 <ehird> The joy of unexpected generality!
19:10:16 <ehird> You have an idea for one specific thing; a little bit of polish or whatever, a little bit of code to bring some stuff together. Later, you think "oh. actually, we could do (big)N things this way". Yay, now your job is harder!
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19:24:52 <ehird> Q: Where is the fastest Ubuntu mirror for my connection located?
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20:10:14 <ehird> !bf ++++++++++>+.<.>.
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20:18:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm are you good at latex?
20:18:43 <fizzie> I guess I've written a fair bit of it, but I'm certainly no LaTeX guru.
20:20:05 <AnMaster> I have an issue with equations. Basically, is there any "better" way than \begin{cases} ... \end{cases} to write a system of equations. After all cases is for two column multi-case definitions
20:20:26 <AnMaster> for equation systems it works if you leave the second column empty
20:20:45 <Deewiant> I typically use \begin{align*} for simple cases
20:21:08 <AnMaster> hm how does that work? Also what is "simple" here?
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20:23:00 <Deewiant> "simple" is the kind of stuff where I don't feel the need for cases or array or the like.
20:23:09 <fizzie> Yes, I've used align too.
20:24:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you add the one sided { for that though?
20:25:12 <Deewiant> My answer would be "you don't", but maybe fizzie has a better one.
20:25:59 <fizzie> No, actually, that's my answer too. I haven't really used the one-sided { except for very cases-friendly things.
20:26:38 <fizzie> If you don't want the two-column cases stuff, you could possibly use array instead.
20:28:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, well, leaving the second column empty still looks odd when you have stuff like {blah <=> {blahblah (hope this ASCII-isation is readable)
20:28:59 <AnMaster> since it seems to leave some space for it
20:29:11 <AnMaster> thus abusing cases doesn't work well
20:29:15 <fizzie> Maybe a single-column array, then.
20:30:34 <fizzie> I think I've also done something like \begin{array}{rcl} foo &=& bar \\ baz &=& quux \end{array} when I've needed something align-like but as a subpart of a larger math mode piece. (Though that needs some manual whitespace here and there unlike the amslatex 'align'; it's possible they provide something for this purpose too, though.)
20:32:09 <fizzie> Hmm, yes, amslatex seems to have an "aligned" environment, which can be used as a component like that.
20:32:22 <fizzie> So you can stick {s around it.
20:33:17 <Deewiant> Sounds familiar; maybe I've used that sometimes.
20:33:24 <fizzie> So something like \left\{ \begin{aligned} x &= foo \\ y &= bar \end{aligned} \right. should give you a nicely typeset "{ x = foo, y = bar" equation system with the =s aligned vertically.
20:34:58 <fizzie> And of course with align you can put the &s at the beginning of the rows if you just want left-aligned on-top-of-each-other equations.
20:35:26 <Deewiant> But then you might as well use displaymath.
20:35:42 <AnMaster> $\left\{ \begin{aligned}2a+b=0\\
20:36:01 <AnMaster> what is the difference between aligned and aligned* btw
20:36:34 <AnMaster> (and that was just a short test case, the real thing I need this for is way way larger)
20:36:34 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what an aligned* would do, though, since the numbering comes from the "top-level" math environment.
20:36:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah, but that doesn't make sense outside a display formula
20:37:21 <fizzie> I don't see an "aligned*" environment described in this thing, but maybe there's some special variant.
20:37:59 <AnMaster> also what is the alignat thingy hm
20:38:29 <fizzie> Anyway, if you're not going to use a & anywhere in your equations, I think \begin{aligned} ... \end{aligned} is essentially equivalent to \begin{array}{c} ... \end{array}.
20:39:24 <fizzie> And alignat lets you specify the space between rows.
20:40:01 <fizzie> Nno, actually it just lets you specify the number of columns there.
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20:40:54 <fizzie> Sure, because you didn't tell it where to align them.
20:41:09 <fizzie> If you want left-aligned, just stick a & in the beginning; it'll align those points.
20:41:20 <fizzie> That's why you're using align, after all.
20:41:42 <fizzie> Alternatively, use a \begin{array}{l} ... \end{array} instead of {aligned} there.
20:41:57 <fizzie> It'll probably do pretty much the exact same thing in this case.
20:52:17 <oerjan> <fizzie> "Karma Koalamon", wasn't that some sort of old hit song. <-- karma chameleon
20:52:36 <fizzie> Yes, it is what I was referring to.
20:53:10 <oerjan> wasn't clear how serious you were
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20:55:19 <oerjan> 11:24:52 <ehird> Q: Where is the fastest Ubuntu mirror for my connection located?
20:55:22 <oerjan> 11:24:54 <ehird> A: South Africa
20:55:48 <oerjan> that seems unlikely. i assume you saw about the recent pigeon test...
21:01:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, any idea if it may even be possible to get a circle around some number in math mode?
21:02:55 <Deewiant> If so: \fbox{$\displaystyle <whatever you want> $}
21:04:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would need to be inside another formula, but that seems to have the entire formula inside.
21:04:12 <AnMaster> and no I really need circle here.
21:04:44 <Deewiant> No, you can put that wherever you like.
21:05:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, box with very rounded corners might be acceptable
21:05:45 <fizzie> Well, if you really *want*, you can do some manual drawing.
21:05:53 <fizzie> Like what I did with those extra-wide hats I needed.
21:06:09 <oerjan> \widehat isn't good enough?
21:06:26 <fizzie> oerjan: I needed wider; even wider than the ams widehat, which is wider than the standard LaTeX.
21:06:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, hah. What about arrows between two rows in an augmented matrix. The arrow going on the outside on the right between, say, row 5 and 7 or such
21:06:40 <AnMaster> I have no clue where to even start looking
21:06:57 * oerjan had assumed that one was freely expanding...
21:07:15 <fizzie> oerjan: Unfortunately, no; it has limits too.
21:07:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not quite sure what sort of an arrow you want here, actually.
21:08:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, let me find an example
21:10:14 <fizzie> oerjan: In fact: "If you use the amsfonts package (and the ams fonts) you get a wider wide hat, but it is still not very wide. Alternatively (As you would have known if you were a member of UKTeX as it was described in the last Baskerville) The rather nice yhmath package of Yannis Haralambous provides much bigger wide hats tildes and similar widgets. "
21:10:22 <fizzie> oerjan: And even the yhmath hat was not wide enough.
21:11:01 <fizzie> oerjan: I had to use savebox'd picture environment manually-drawn hat and \accentset from the accents package to make it work as a math mode accent.
21:12:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, how wide was this hat?
21:13:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: The hats are in http://zem.fi/~fis/hw.pdf page 31; and the blue hat on page 32 is the widest hat that the amssymb hat can do.
21:14:24 <fizzie> They look a bit different than the "real" hats, because it's just a ^-shaped wedge with a uniform-thickness line, while the real hats are a bit thicker in the middle. But on paper they weren't that bad.
21:14:43 <fizzie> Oh, and all the text is in Finnish.
21:14:44 <AnMaster> in the gnome pdf viewer, how do you select an area as an image
21:15:38 <fizzie> Evince, you mean? Not that I know the answer.
21:15:49 <AnMaster> well maybe that is the name of the app
21:16:47 <fizzie> What should area-selecting do? You mean it can export regions as raster images like that, or something?
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21:17:29 <ehird_> The "GNOME Shell" window manager/virtual desktops/launcher/task switcher is quite perplexing.
21:18:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok I mean like in http://omploader.org/vMmYwcQ
21:19:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, I know that thing was produced with pdftex (according to properties of pdf) but don't know who made it. And reason I didn't want to re-upload whole pdf (you need to login to the uni web system to reach it) was that it would probably violate even more copyright or such.
21:20:22 <fizzie> Egh, that doesn't look very friendly to typeset unless you happen to have a package exactly for that. I guess you could just put a correctly-sized \begin{picture} ... \end{picture} in a mbox there and use the arrows it provides, but that sounds like a lot of work.
21:20:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, and those round things aren't very round there yeah. I was looking for similiar arrows but better (more like you would write on a paper) circles.
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21:21:19 <fizzie> That whole image looks very messy, since the matrices aren't aligned. And isn't that vertical separating line supposed to be unbroken?
21:21:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean a package for illustrating solving linear equations written as augmented matrixes? :D
21:21:36 <fizzie> You never know what those LaTeX freaks do.
21:21:42 <ehird> The GNOME Shell does, at least, make virtual desktops not a complete and utter inane waste of time by renaming them to Activities and letting you create/destroy them with a single click.
21:21:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, and yes it is unbroken in evince, but not okular
21:21:51 <ehird> Of course this is all very alpha.
21:22:05 <AnMaster> which was what I used for the picture bit due to evince not having "copy as picture"
21:22:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also where it is broken in okular changes with zoom
21:22:53 <ehird> Though for a super-alpha this thing sure is high on graphical polish.
21:23:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, showing properties for the pdf in question shows that it was produced with "MiKTeX pdfTeX-1.40.4"
21:24:12 <fizzie> Given the general non-polishedness of that thing, I would guess it's just manually drawn arrows with picture or some-such.
21:24:19 <fizzie> Same could actually apply to the circles.
21:24:32 <fizzie> Doesn't sound a very pleasant thing to write, really.
21:24:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I think I know the reason... okular says Helvetica is used from /usr/share/fonts/... but evince claims helvetica is embedded. Which seems rather strange
21:25:01 <AnMaster> (for the broken lines that is)
21:25:23 <ehird> Evince uses poppler, fwiw.
21:25:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, it looks a lot more polished in evince though
21:25:35 <ehird> So before hatin' on GNOME, check that you want to insult poppler. :P
21:25:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but not kpdf.
21:25:50 <AnMaster> ehird, also I was insulting okular. Not evince
21:26:53 <ehird> kpdf uses xpdf or something.
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21:27:17 <ehird> Wonder if it inherits the shitty evil-bit content restrictions compliance.
21:28:03 <AnMaster> ehird, as I told you last time you asked that (some weeks ago): There is an option to turn that on and off
21:28:04 <fizzie> It's not like poppler's not based on xpdf too.
21:28:10 <AnMaster> and popler is based on xpdf iirc?
21:28:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but kpdf might not inherit the option.
21:28:37 <ehird> Anyway, it's inherently crappy code that shouldn't be there, so to hell with that.
21:28:41 <pikhq> Poppler is the library xpdf uses.
21:28:49 <pikhq> (it got seperated from xpdf recently)
21:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, in xpdf it is not an option iirc? Well a compile time one
21:29:10 <AnMaster> for kpdf it is easy to reach under settings
21:29:50 <ehird> pikhq: xpdf does not use poppler afaik.
21:29:56 <ehird> Poppler is a fork of xpdf's rendering library.
21:30:25 <ehird> (with one of the main focuses being glatform^Wklatform^Wetc integration, so I doubt oh-so-very-minimal xpdf would adopt it.)
21:31:19 <pikhq> I could swear my xpdf uses poppler.
21:31:43 <pikhq> Mine most certainly links against it.
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21:32:08 <pikhq> Xpdf has a compile-time option to use it now.
21:32:09 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf simply doesn't mention it.
21:32:15 <ehird> pikhq: Unexpected.
21:33:04 <pikhq> Erm. The wikipedia page does.
21:33:04 <ehird> Oh yay, I ran compiz when running gnome-shell and now have a WM with no way to start, e.g. the panels.
21:33:23 <pikhq> "Many programs (including Xpdf, itself) can use poppler as their backend renderer[3]." -- wikipedia://Xpdf
21:33:40 <ehird> wikipedia:// is not and shouldn't be a protocol.
21:33:50 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Erm. The wikipedia page does. <-- yeah wikipedia is defined as being true. So ./configure --help is LYING
21:34:00 <pikhq> ehird, you fail at URIs.
21:34:05 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't even read what he said.
21:34:22 <ehird> pikhq: If "fail at" means "understand the structure and rationale of", then yes.
21:34:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no I just copied wrong line
21:34:32 <AnMaster> I meant to copy <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpdf simply doesn't mention it.
21:34:36 <pikhq> URIs do not map to protocols at all.
21:34:39 <AnMaster> but somehow ended up copying wrong
21:34:43 <pikhq> Well, certain of them do.
21:34:51 <ehird> pikhq: "wikipedia://" is simply wrong.
21:34:54 <pikhq> isbn: doesn't, though.
21:35:01 <pikhq> No, wikipedia:// is simply unspecified.
21:35:14 <ehird> pikhq: Your pedanticism is stupid, because the part before : in a URI is known as the protocol.
21:36:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, that unpolished pic ends up looking good when printed hm
21:37:33 <ehird> Gasp; printers have a high enough DPI that you don't need to antialias.
21:38:13 <Ilari> Displays have something like 100DPI, printers can easily be 1200DPI...
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21:38:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you end up wanting to draw stuff manually, before embarking on a magical \begin{picture} adventure, you might want to check out xypic too. It's a bit more complicated, but it has a "xymatrix" environment, which at least lets you draw things between matrix cells; it could maybe be abused for that too.
21:38:43 <ehird> The canonical display resolution is 96PPI. Cheapo printers are like 300-600DPI, decent ones 1200DPI+.
21:38:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, atm I'm actually considering pstricks. Of course that could well be even worse
21:38:59 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you using latex?
21:39:02 <fizzie> Well, it's certainly more flexible than picture.
21:39:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you suggesting instead?
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21:39:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, what are you trying to do?
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21:40:46 <AnMaster> ehird, nicely formatted math in a document consisting of roughly 5 pages. About 1/3 of that would end up as equations
21:40:53 <Ilari> High-def monitors have DPI somewhere in neighborhood of 200...
21:40:56 <AnMaster> oh and my handwriting really sucks
21:40:59 * ehird makes folder on desktop with Nautilus, creates fuck.sh, puts inside "sh", *cackles*
21:41:05 <ehird> AnMaster: use LyX or something.
21:41:21 <ehird> Ilari: 200PPI is very rare; I only know of the two IBM monitors around 220PPI.
21:41:29 <AnMaster> ehird, duh I am using it. But I ran out of it's capabilities here...
21:41:31 <ehird> Stuff like 170PPI is in phones and shit.
21:41:38 <AnMaster> which is why I'm using raw latex inserts in it
21:41:41 <Ilari> ehird: Yeah, high-def monitors are very rare.
21:41:53 <ehird> Ilari: The highest I know is the 1600PPI MyVu Crystal thingies that they project onto glasses that cover your eyes, so you can watch movies and shit.
21:42:00 <ehird> (It's .5" and 640x480.)
21:42:20 <ehird> AnMaster: OpenOffice equations or something? LaTeX is a bitch to write.
21:42:44 <AnMaster> ehird, can it do stuff like http://omploader.org/vMmYwcQ but that looks nice?
21:42:53 <ehird> Probably not *as* nice.
21:42:55 <fizzie> Phones do go up to something close to 300 PPI now.
21:43:12 <AnMaster> ehird, um "as nice"? what are you on... That pic does look quite horrible
21:43:24 <ehird> AnMaster, Howso, apart from those circle things?
21:43:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the gaps in several of the lines for example
21:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, look at the first equation in the last line, look at the arrow at it. Look at the upper corner on that arrow line. See the gap?
21:44:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: Gah. That's painful typesetting.
21:44:25 <fizzie> That thing would benefit from a bit of alignment too, but that should be very doable with LaTeX.
21:44:34 <ehird> "Oh, true."; i.e., yes, I can see.
21:44:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes. Now do that well please!
21:44:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well I meant the [ being broken first time around
21:45:03 <pikhq> I'd hope LaTeX could do it well. However, I'm not familiar with typing matrices into TeX.
21:45:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, and alignment is easy yeah \hphantom{} and \vphantom{}
21:45:24 <AnMaster> I used both inside equations already today!
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21:45:43 <fizzie> Matrices are easy, but the arrows less so.
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21:46:54 <AnMaster> <pikhq> I'd hope LaTeX could do it well. However, I'm not familiar with typing matrices into TeX. <-- according to the properties of the pdf it was from it was created by "MiKTeX pdfTeX-1.40.4"
21:47:05 <AnMaster> but that could just be user error
21:47:21 <AnMaster> however I don't even know how to get it as well as that level so yeah...
21:47:56 <fizzie> I'd probably typeset that whole thing inside a \begin{align*} to get the overall alignment done easily, then the amsmath "matrix" environments to typeset the individual matrices, and a \mbox{}'d picture/xypic/pstricks manually-drawn bit to the right of each matrix containing the circled numbers and arrows. Though the arrow position tweaking won't be very pleasant.
21:47:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, it does look a lot better in evince though. okular messes it up much more
21:48:10 <pikhq> Things like the "-1/2" and "--1" and the horrendous alignment suggests major TeX fail.
21:49:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, And I do know how to do the matrixes easily enough. Something like: [\begin{array}{ccccc|c}
21:49:39 <fizzie> Use the ams matrix envs, not array; they do a lot better (i.e. less) whitespace in there.
21:50:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, that means dropping lyx wysiwym though since lyx doesn't seem to support that specific env
21:51:17 <AnMaster> (it's insert matrix is what ends up as arrays
21:52:03 <fizzie> There's a "bmatrix" in amsmath which typesets the [...] delimiters automatically and well.
21:52:47 <fizzie> The [ and ] automatically, I mean.
21:53:46 <fizzie> Though since the ams matrices don't have explicit column specifiers, I'm not entirely sure offhand how to do the separating vertical line there. I'm sure it's possible, though. (Not that you couldn't get entirely reasonable matrices with array too.)
21:53:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Third line, the scaling operation.
21:53:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well ok sound good, but those manual [] outside doesn't cause a lot of issue really since that is wysiwyg editing anyway. And yeah the lyx generated source looks quite painful
21:54:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, looks like a long minus?
21:54:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, rather than two separate dashes
21:54:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, oh you didn't mean two separate dashes with -- ?
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21:54:57 <AnMaster> yeah it should really be a short minus dash in all those cases
21:55:05 <pikhq> I meant a long dash, and that is written using ASCII with --.
21:55:58 <fizzie> What it *should* be is the math mode minus, but it looks like it's outside math mode, with that one long dash and three short ones cheerfully mixed together.
21:56:13 <AnMaster> also that pic uses | for the line rather than a full line
21:56:32 <AnMaster> guess whoever it was just inserted an extra column with | in it
21:58:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw what about underlining, I used bold instead (looks a lot nicer, but the original pic is intended to illustrate something that is plausible to write with a pencil... and bold really isn't)
21:59:29 <fizzie> Bold is just fine. Or did you want to know how to underline those?
22:00:19 <fizzie> If you do end up using the ams matrices (you can try replacing one array with them to see if they make any difference) and still want the vertical column-separating line, http://texblog.net/latex-archive/maths/amsmath-matrix/ will be helpful.
22:00:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah I wanted to know how to underline
22:01:57 <fizzie> \underline{xx} would be my guess, but I don't quite remember. It would be a reasonable complement to the \overline{xx} I know exists in math mode.
22:02:16 <fizzie> Or is that overbar/underbar? Can't ever remember without looking up.
22:02:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, if you mean that using {cc|c} kind of thing? Yeah? Same as usual then?
22:03:24 <AnMaster> aligning with minus sign sticking out in front would be nicer, didn't manage that yet without lots of \hphantom kind of stuff
22:04:07 <fizzie> Yes, with that tweak the matrix envs will accept the usual {ccc|c} thing. Admittedly there's not much benefit from using them (over an explicit array) except that they have those automatic delimiters (a minor thing) and they decrease the huge horizontal spacing a bit (maybe a matter of taste).
22:04:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, \underbar. Yay for lyx completion suggestions as you type \<anything> in math mode
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22:05:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, this sounds familiar but I can't really identify it
22:06:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: German adjactive for en:wonderful.
22:07:58 <fizzie> It's not immediately obvious how to easily do "center numbers but ignore the minus sign"; it is reasonably easy to do "left-align numbers but ignore the minus sign" by using two columns in place of one, with the other column containing only the minus signs.
22:08:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, and some horrible adjustment
22:09:12 <AnMaster> and yeah center + ignore minus would be nice
22:09:17 <fizzie> What horrible adjustment?
22:09:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, for the column spacing
22:09:49 <AnMaster> so that there is less space between minus sign and number column
22:09:59 <fizzie> AnMaster: But you can do that in the column specifier.
22:10:20 <fizzie> Just use "r @{} l" to get a right-aligned column and a left-aligned column with no space between them.
22:11:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would be like: {r@{}lr@{}lr@{}l|r@{}l} instead of {ccc|c} then?
22:11:18 <fizzie> Yes. Not very pretty, admittedly.
22:11:27 <fizzie> And you probably want to use @{X} instead, where X is something that will cause a tiny space, to leave a small breathing gap between the digits and the minus sign.
22:12:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, some thin space like \, ?
22:12:35 <fizzie> Yes, though in that case you probably need to re-enter math mode in there, so @{$\,$} -- not quite sure about that.
22:12:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think \, works outside math mode though
22:13:05 <AnMaster> not completely sure about that
22:13:20 <fizzie> Possibly, yes. Haven't really used them elsewhere, though.
22:13:26 <AnMaster> @{$\,$} <-- that looks like quite a painful smiley!
22:13:51 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it actually should work without the $$s, because I remember using \quad outside math mode.
22:14:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, why on earth something like \quad. I never found a use for it
22:14:39 <fizzie> To leave a reasonable gap between two pictures, I think.
22:15:27 <fizzie> And the two-column approach still doesn't center the digits, of course. For that you'd need to define some-sort of zero-width minus sign. Not impossible, of course.
22:15:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway I'm suspecting that the sanest way to do this is pstricks, but that way I can't use pdftex then. and I like \usepackage{microtype}...
22:15:52 <AnMaster> or wait, can pdftex render to ps?
22:16:24 <AnMaster> and I don't need hyperref really in this case
22:16:34 <fizzie> http://www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~fouvry/how-do-I.html "PSTricks with pdflatex". They sound quite kludgy.
22:17:18 <AnMaster> ooh yeah you can embed pdf in pdf. Quite a nice feature that I actually used a few times
22:17:37 <AnMaster> (convert svg to pdf, then embed that)
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22:21:00 <fizzie> Hmm. I think a \makebox[0pt]{$-$\rule{Xpt}{0pt}} should give you a math-mode "-" character that is actually zero-width, and displaced a bit (depending on the X there) to the left from the point you use it in. You should be able to use that sort of structure in front of numbers in a centered array column to get the "center numbers but ignore the minus sign" behaviour.
22:21:07 <fizzie> Or at least so do I speculate; haven't tried.
22:22:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok worth a try I guess.
22:23:15 <ehird> <AnMaster> fizzie, why on earth something like \quad. I never found a use for it
22:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you fail there I'm afraid. \begin{cases}
22:24:35 <AnMaster> it was how this whole discussion started
22:24:44 <ehird> yeah, well, that doesn't work always.
22:24:54 <ehird> latex is all about opportunistic hacks.
22:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, and the cases env is a lot better for what you are suggesting
22:25:21 <ehird> if it works, and if you want everything else that comes with it
22:25:28 <AnMaster> and even if it didn't exist it would be way better to use at least a matrix
22:25:32 <ehird> you can't seriously be a purity zealot when using latex, so don't argue that it's wrong.
22:25:40 <AnMaster> ehird, two lines won't be aligned then
22:25:51 <ehird> who said anything about two lines
22:26:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I was assuming it was in something like:
22:26:27 <ehird> you made a donkey out of you and I.
22:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, because I couldn't think of a reason for such a big space like that otherwise
22:27:30 <ehird> t'was jus t an example
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22:34:28 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hmm. I think a \makebox[0pt]{$-$\rule{Xpt}{0pt}} <-- just tested it. Latex errors on Xpt. What was that supposed to be instead?
22:35:21 <fizzie> Not really, it's a bit font-dependent. Possibly you could use a \hphantom with suitable contents instead of a fixed-width strut.
22:35:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it was placed on top of the text with X = 1
22:35:38 <fizzie> Yes, 1pt is not very much of spacing.
22:35:40 <AnMaster> as in on top of the \nicefrac directly following it
22:36:03 <fizzie> You'll need at least a "-"'s worth of space there, because the \makebox centers the text in it.
22:36:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, any magic way to find out how wide the - is there?
22:37:01 <fizzie> Naybe \hphantom{$-\,$} or something.
22:37:10 <fizzie> To provide "- and a bit" of space.
22:37:36 <fizzie> It is a bit hacky solution though.
22:37:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I'm not familiar with how \rule works. What does the arguments in \rule{Xpt}{0pt} mean?
22:38:04 <fizzie> First one is width, second one is height.
22:39:05 <fizzie> It creates a filled box with those arguments, but generally it's used to do horizontal or vertical lines (in which case one of the arguments is line thickness and the other the length) or alternatively struts (with zero width or zero height) to control spacing.
22:39:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, ok that made latex error for some reason, it accepted \rule though
22:40:23 <AnMaster> hm seems it didn't like math mode inside hphantom?
22:41:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, in theory it works, except that it ends up on top of the | line of the augmented matrix
22:42:04 <fizzie> Ah, right. Well, you can solve that by adjusting the column spacing manually if you want.
22:43:58 <fizzie> Also, if you seriously dislike the fixed-width \rule there, possibly \makebox[0pt][r]{$-\,$} could work instead. The additional 'r' argument should make the right edge of the "- " text be flush against the right edge of the zero-width box, i.e. the place you use it in.
22:44:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, I need about half a \, though
22:46:32 <fizzie> I don't think there's a smaller predefined space. You can use a suitable \rule again; but at least this time the rule won't have to depend on the length of the - sign, it's just the amount of space.
22:47:15 <AnMaster> hm: \negthinspace{} is negative space XD
22:47:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would depend on font size though in reality
22:47:44 <fizzie> \quad is 1em, I think, and \, is 3/18 quad, so 0.16em; something like \rule{0.8em}{0pt} would be half a \,.
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22:48:26 <fizzie> It's just that there's a different concept of "font size" in- and out-math-mode, and you're sort of mixing the modes there; but in practice I guess it should work.
22:48:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, for some reason that placed it way off the other way
22:49:38 <AnMaster> <fizzie> \quad is 1em, I think, and \, is 3/18 quad, so 0.16em; something like \rule{0.8em}{0pt} would be half a \,.
22:50:23 <fizzie> The decimal points, who cares about it.
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22:55:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, issue is that this doesn't make the column wide enough in the matrix hm
22:56:05 <AnMaster> how did you say you fixed that now again?
22:58:46 <fizzie> Well, you can add a spacer column there, maybe with the @{...} syntax.
23:00:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was you supposed to put inside the ${} ?
23:01:09 <AnMaster> I tried using a phantom but that resulted in very strange things
23:01:41 <ehird> xchat-gnome is so lame
23:04:32 <fizzie> I'm not sure what to put there; maybe one of the \:-style spaces, since those are font-size-dependent.
23:07:33 <ehird> AnMaster: i wish you would stop agreeing to things when you know full well that we hate entirely different things about them and on the topic you know I think you're wrong about everything except this one boolean switch value, not the reasons behind it
23:07:49 <ehird> (e.g. when I said kde sucks and you said "yeah, 4 at least")
23:08:24 <ehird> xchat-gnome sucks, but xchat is far, far worse.
23:08:50 <ehird> thus the two lines prior.
23:09:18 <ehird> it doesn't make any sense to agree with an opinion if it's just a single boolean value and happens to come from entirely different reasoning and position
23:09:53 <AnMaster> then you should provide the full thing so I can tell that it differs
23:10:11 <AnMaster> you provide too little information
23:10:38 <ehird> but (a) I'm exceedingly lazy (b) I've mentioned xchat vs xchat-gnome before (c) it's fairly obvious I don't hate xchat-gnome because it isn't bloated like xchat :)
23:10:45 -!- jix_ has joined.
23:11:33 <ehird> ...although as a bandaid it could do with a "put the userlist to the right instead of concealed behind that button" option because I get the whole "it wastes space for quite a rare operation" thing but this is just a terrible solution
23:15:56 <ehird> It has a menu just for all its preference dialogs, dude.
23:16:27 <AnMaster> it could use with all those in the main preference dialog yes
23:16:32 <AnMaster> and checking user list is quite common
23:16:51 <ehird> If they were all in one dialog it might cause a black hole due to its ridiculous hugeness.
23:17:17 <ehird> Also, it's quite common; I'm not quite sure it deserves such screen real estate, though. Ooh, maybe in my client, in the tree view, the channel could expand to a user list.
23:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it already has a treeview. And it would still be less than the treeview in the kdevelop settings for example
23:17:24 <ehird> You could leave it up if you want, and it's still accessable with a click.
23:17:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Is KDevelop's bigger than SeaMonkey's, I wonder?
23:17:49 <AnMaster> of course I expect you to argue than an irc client needs less options
23:18:07 <ehird> *accessible, not accessable
23:18:18 <AnMaster> ehird, don't have seamonkey and just remember kdevelop didn't use a tree view but an icon list and then tabbed pages under each icon
23:18:25 <AnMaster> it is kate that uses a tree view
23:18:47 <ehird> Kate's isn't really *that* huge, though.
23:18:54 <ehird> At least it's well-organised. Still could do with a big trim.
23:19:33 <AnMaster> it is very well balanced and feature rich. Yet way easier to find what you are looking for than in emacs
23:19:45 <ehird> Yes, but... it still has an awful, awful lot of preferences.
23:19:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I changed over 2/3 of them I think
23:20:13 <ehird> Yes, but you're crazy and anyone designing software around you is crazy.
23:20:32 <AnMaster> ehird, still something like visual studio has WAY more options
23:20:47 <AnMaster> and visual studio handles way fewer languages too
23:20:57 <ehird> Yes, but Kate makes claim to be an editor, not an integrated development whoopisystem.
23:21:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I would place kate somewhere between "IDE" and "bare editor"
23:21:24 <AnMaster> more towards editor than IDE though
23:22:03 <ehird> Someone ought to write a text editor as actual separate Unix commands, so the claim that it's an IDE is finally true.
23:22:06 <AnMaster> of course this places emacs near IDEs (except less integrated for many languages)
23:22:15 <ehird> (sed doesn't count, it combines multiple commands into one. :P)
23:23:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you could write it based on a simple dd + sh base
23:23:55 <Tinned_Tuna> heya. Anyone here have any experience writing interpetters ?
23:24:05 <AnMaster> so shell scripts like "replace" and "search" and "view" and what not
23:24:05 <ehird> I'd expect everyone.
23:24:15 <ehird> Apart from the bots.
23:24:22 <ehird> AnMaster: View? You mean cat?
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23:24:55 <AnMaster> ehird, view: #!/bin/sh\n$PAGER $@
23:24:59 <Tinned_Tuna> would you lend us a hand, I'm struggling to write a brainfuck interpreter in python, I can't get it to loop correctly on [ or ]
23:25:12 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway my plan was to base it ALL on just dd and sh
23:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: Pagers don't have a command-line based interface.
23:25:30 <AnMaster> so those are the only external dependencies
23:25:32 <ehird> Also, is that meant to be interesting? dd/sh is an established "language".
23:25:48 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: Either you have to find the matching [ or ] every time you execute in the code, or you need to match them beforehand.
23:25:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it makes it more portable or something. (yeah it doesn't really hold up)
23:26:12 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: If you're looping through the program file character by character, firstly, stop and load it all into memory first.
23:26:41 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I have it loaded into a list, and each time I encounter a [ I push the current position in the program onto a stack
23:26:51 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: Right. And?
23:27:13 <Tinned_Tuna> well, then when I find the matching ] I don't have to walk backwards in the code I just jump there
23:27:20 <ehird> Right, so what's the issue?
23:28:32 <ehird> Well, Epiphany just crashed upon opening that straining codepad page.
23:28:37 <ehird> Let's try clicking it again...
23:28:57 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: (btw, it's interpreter with one t)
23:29:17 <ehird> self.stack.append((self.instruction_pointer,self.pointer,)) # why save self.pointer here too?
23:29:31 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: anyway, your [ has a bug
23:29:35 <ehird> what if the value is 0 at the start of the loop?
23:29:38 <ehird> it executes it anyway
23:30:00 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you have to check at both ends, OR, you can make the ] jump unconditionally to the [, and let the [ do all the checking (but this is slightly slower)
23:31:59 <Tinned_Tuna> so do I only need to check on the [ and ]?
23:32:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, how to tell pdftex to embed *all* fonts?
23:32:18 <AnMaster> well only the used parts obviously
23:32:20 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: What conditions would require checking for the others?
23:33:22 <ehird> what are they supposed to do?
23:34:51 <Tinned_Tuna> they're supposed to be doing the checking in the loop
23:35:26 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: the loop doesn't abort if it becomes 0 inside the loop
23:35:33 <ehird> maybe you should look at the semantics for the commands again
23:35:44 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Language_overview
23:37:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't really know; there's the pdftexDownloadBase14 setting you can change, but that's set to "true" in the default system config here at least.
23:37:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, is that from some \latexcommand or command line option or?
23:38:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's in the updmap.cfg tex config file; Debian has an "update-updmap" tool to build that, your distribution might do things differently.
23:39:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm ok. and it is set to true, yet helvetica isn't embedded
23:43:36 <fizzie> Based on some quick googling, it looks like it can't embed Helvetica unless you actually, you know, have it; I mean the actual font named "Helvetica", which is commercial and all.
23:43:44 <fizzie> http://groups.google.de/group/comp.text.tex/browse_thread/thread/690b4c0f9cbf2f49/3052d903aaaeadcd has some workarounds.
23:43:52 <fizzie> Is there a reason you need it embedded, though?
23:45:53 <fizzie> (The workarounds seem to mostly involve running things through Ghostscript's pdfwriter device with font-embedding turned on, using "ps2pdf13 -dPDFSETTINGS=/prepress in.pdf out.pdf"; that sounds like it could mess something else up easily.
00:13:04 <AnMaster> "Rmime-mode has one annoying feature: if you sort your messages, you lost your attachments. I find it great otherwise." <-- *blink*
00:13:28 <ehird> Clearly it needs a preference "[ ] Don't delete my attachments".
00:13:38 <ehird> AnMaster would probably defend it by saying he changed it :P
00:14:41 <AnMaster> I was just wondering how the hell that person I quoted could consider it a feature
00:15:14 <ehird> AnMaster: a gnomist like i would claim that a lot of existing preferences tend to amount to "don't break" :P
00:15:33 <ehird> (e.g. from a usability perspective; "[ ] Be usable")
00:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, arguing that a KDE user or anything would consider "delete attachments if you sort mail" a feature... is just insane
00:16:54 <ehird> it's called hyperbole for the sake of making a point
00:17:25 <ehird> i never said analogy. and of course you don't think it's a good whatever because you hate the perspective
00:17:38 <ehird> funnily enough i didn't say it for you to appreciate
00:17:50 <AnMaster> ehird, and this was an emacs mode btw
00:18:16 <AnMaster> where I do think someone could claim it as a feature
00:24:20 <Ilari> Aren't most of attachments virii anyway? :->
00:25:02 <AnMaster> Ilari, I thought they were usually diffs? ;P
00:29:00 <Tinned_Tuna> I'm rewarding myself with a cookie for getting my python to interpret very simple brainfuck... brb
00:29:54 <ehird> i'd class that more crumb level :P
00:29:55 <AnMaster> I wrote a trivial interpreter in python recently.
00:30:13 <AnMaster> didn't get around to input iirc
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00:30:55 <AnMaster> it was too slow to run anything non-trivial though
00:31:30 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I've not even studied any of this in my course yet though. And I'm really stupid. This is an achievement for me :-)
00:32:35 <AnMaster> it didn't use a "store position" model, rather it parsed it into a recursive list of tuples
00:34:39 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: yay stupidity!
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00:35:20 <AnMaster> ehird, try to be nice... or something
00:35:28 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, he called himself stupid
00:35:35 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: Try to be nice! To... yourself.
00:36:10 <Tinned_Tuna> it's true though, before I came to uni I was very, very dumb
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00:36:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the nice way would have been "oh I don't think you are stupid, it is like that for most people in the beginning"
00:36:39 <Tinned_Tuna> I look back at code from less than a year ago and just cringe so very hard.
00:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster: and if the world was filled with people who said shit like that all the time it'd be overwhelmingly boring
00:38:20 <ehird> everyone thinks they were stupid a few years ago fwiw
00:40:52 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, but do they think they were stupid enough that they would punch their previous selves in the face should they get the opportunity to meet them?
00:41:09 <ehird> well, most people aren't that violent. :P
00:44:52 <AnMaster> http://pastebin.ca/1578482 in case anyone cares about my more or less crappy bf interpreter in python. Wrote it as part of learning python. It is very suboptimal compared to optimising ones I wrote before in other languages.
00:45:21 <ehird> can you even gpl something that small.
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00:46:49 <ehird> it has enough useless fluff code to count, i guess.
00:47:07 <ehird> i don't think you could GPL either the _parse or _run methods, though.
00:47:27 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: hey you're in the uk, cool.
00:47:37 <ehird> "vague geographical buddies"
00:53:00 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: nearby.
00:53:14 <ehird> (enough that the geoip robots claim so)
00:54:04 <Tinned_Tuna> I'm only at York, so it's not too vague... It could be more vague.
00:57:41 <ehird> "Member of the inverse of the empty set"
00:59:48 <Tinned_Tuna> "Member of the inverse of every empty set"
01:00:43 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: there are multiple?
01:04:37 <Tinned_Tuna> bah, I still can't get this stupid interpreter to work on anything more complex than a simple bf program
01:04:55 <ehird> ehh, repaste it and i'll rewrite it to work or something :P
01:05:30 <Tinned_Tuna> >+++[>[-]>[-]<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<-]<<[[>[>+>+<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<<<-]>>[<<+>>-]<[-]<<]>[<+>-]<#
01:05:36 <ehird> which is meant to do?
01:05:47 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you're not wrapping.
01:06:07 <ehird> 8-bit brainfuck (the most common) has 0-255 cells that wrap from 256->0 and -1->255, i.e. mod 256 arithmetic
01:06:14 <ehird> i.e. what fits in an 8-bit value like C's "char"
01:06:25 <ehird> this also happens to be the range of ASCII, and thus has obvious advantages for . and ,
01:06:26 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, yea, I thought it best not to so it was easier to work with bigger numbers
01:06:32 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: then expect programs to break.
01:06:42 <ehird> as almost all non-trivial BF programs rely on 8-bit wrapping
01:07:01 <ehird> fix that compiler, then :P
01:07:07 <ehird> but that's almost certainly why it's breaking.
01:07:26 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: btw, your [ is slow
01:07:36 <Tinned_Tuna> what would be a good, simple, quick nested loop program to test it with, do you reckon?
01:07:44 <ehird> i strongly recommend building a table of foo[position of '['] = position of ']' and foo[position of ']'] = position of '[' beforehand
01:07:47 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, premature optimization is the root of all trees ;-)
01:07:57 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: there are two types of optimisation
01:08:05 <ehird> algorithmic, and the evil kind
01:08:21 <ehird> the evil kind is a last resort, but not doing trivial, massively-helping algorithmic optimisations is a sin
01:08:58 <Tinned_Tuna> true. But I would like to see it work before I start digging around in it's innards
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01:09:21 <ehird> this makes it simpler to make it work.
01:09:31 <ehird> as the "searching" technique is error prone; this can be done with just a stack
01:09:50 <ehird> ] pops off the location of the [, assigns it to its own location; then assigns its own location to that grabbed [ location off the stack
01:10:01 <ehird> so [ is a simple stack push, and ] is a simple stack pop and two dictionary assignments.
01:10:14 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, do this in preprocessing_program, yea?
01:10:16 <ehird> and each command, when running, can just do matching[pos]
01:10:23 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: sure, I didn't really read your program too much :P
01:11:31 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: if you care, python thing: "class Bf_Interpreter():" should (a) be BFInterpreter (python standard), (b) omit the "()", (c) have "(object)" (new-style objects; default in python 3. you should basically always use them)
01:14:16 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I know, PEP8 is *so* long. I am forever forgetting bits of style here there and forever :-(
01:14:37 <ehird> heh, i've pretty much absorbed pep8 in one or two readings
01:14:54 <ehird> although i don't really do much pythoneering recently.
01:15:04 <Tinned_Tuna> after a while it's just so dry I tend to start just skimming along it
01:15:19 <ehird> you make baby jesus^W^Wguido sad.
01:17:07 <ehird> that's simon peyton-jones.
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01:54:49 * Sgeo goes to right something incredibly evil/idiotic in C++
01:57:19 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:57:20 <Sgeo> How is C++ itself evil or idiotic?
01:58:12 * Sgeo is making a heterogenous list
01:58:33 <ehird> We've told you why C++ is abominable quite a bit and you never listen, so why waste the effort?
01:59:32 <ehird> Every time you've mentioned it?
02:02:02 * Sgeo doesn't remember :(
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02:12:42 <ehird> "Faith not supported by reason and empirical evidence is wishful thinking" --19.org, claiming to be Islamic
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04:31:07 <ehird> Deewiant: I think I have an idea as to why the discrepancy for the UltraBay battery thing
04:31:15 <ehird> Disabling the optical drive seems to save some battery life
04:31:19 <ehird> And obviously with the UltraBay battery that's done
04:31:38 <ehird> so it might be 1h30m + how much you save from disabling the optical drive
05:08:26 <ehird> ok, the highest PPI display I know of that isn't the ibm thingy: the 2048x1356 15" for thinkpads
05:15:06 <ehird> oh wait, it's just "Hur hur obvious thing everyone knows drawn badly"
05:15:24 <ehird> i expect more from xkcd! not that i get it.
05:15:31 <ehird> (more, that is. not the joke.)
05:16:13 <oerjan> i hereby declare ehird's sense of humor to have officially drowned in his cynicism.
05:16:38 <ehird> xkcd used to be a happy and funny aspect of my life, dammit.
05:17:32 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/640/ was even a glimmer of hope.
05:17:47 <ehird> sure, the art is inexplicably worse than usual, and that entire fourth panel ruins the entire thing and must be omitted
05:18:03 <ehird> but it was funny, dammit (before I stopped trying to tie the third panel into the fourth to "get the joke")
05:18:21 <ehird> we're back to the same ol' xkcd.
05:18:23 <oerjan> well as i was opening xkcd today i was all prepared to declare "damn _another_ stupid internet meme, someone tell him he's spending too much time on reddit". but then it _wasn't_.
05:18:39 <ehird> small victories, eh.
05:19:33 <oerjan> otoh when i think about today's strip further, i think maybe your cynicism has infected him. hm.
05:19:52 <oerjan> IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT ANYHOW
05:21:11 <ehird> oerjan: i offer, for your comparison: http://xkcd.com/11/ http://xkcd.com/631/
05:21:24 <ehird> a 620 comic gap is *not* enough to make that non-WTF
05:21:41 <oerjan> also, not having the punch line in the last panel was consider new and refreshing back in the early '90s...
05:22:25 <ehird> it'd be less bad if it was just a continuation, and not an entirely irrelevant, confusing diversion that doesn't tie into the preceding frame and thus makes me search for The Real Punchline
05:22:59 <oerjan> but but ... i thought the fourth panel fit in perfectly
05:23:26 <oerjan> admittedly, i may not have tried to analyse it intellectually. i'm not a joke murderer after all.
05:23:30 <ehird> YOU ARE BLINDED BY YOUR DEVOTION
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05:26:09 <ehird> coppro: have you ever considered adopting a new moniker.
05:26:53 <ehird> i am afraid that my jokes must then continue unabated
05:28:25 <ehird> coppro: you poor widescreen slave.
05:29:30 <coppro> *: good keyboard though
05:29:37 <ehird> yes, I can tell...
05:29:41 * coppro hates firefox-kde integration
05:29:56 <ehird> two bad pieces of software don't go great together?
05:30:11 <coppro> firefox-gnome is pretty good I hear
05:30:29 <ehird> it's... acceptable. epiphany is still nicer for the discerning gnomer
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05:31:46 <coppro> wtf is up with my font sizes...
05:32:00 <coppro> (like, size 9 on this computer is == 12 on old one)
05:32:22 <ehird> coppro: I'd recommend leaving dpi=96 just for alignment crap, prolly
05:32:27 <ehird> unless it's really unreadable
05:32:49 <ehird> but everything on the web for instance pretty much assumes 96ppi so you get freakishly small images along regular text...
05:33:29 <coppro> hmm... what was that firefox theme called?
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05:41:42 <ehird> "the T60 and T60p are based off of the intel socket M processors. no matter how much memory you install in these thinkpads, only 3GB will be addressable regardless of operating system used. this is a physical limitation and there is absolutely no workaround."
05:42:41 <coppro> okay, so fonts are good in CZ now
05:42:47 <coppro> but Google page text is tiny :/
05:42:49 <ehird> woooooooooooooooooooooe.
05:43:01 <ehird> coppro: about:config or deal with it.
05:43:10 <ehird> this is what you get into when you buy a high-ppi screen.
05:43:40 <coppro> OS fonts are readable-size
05:43:49 <coppro> like, window titles and such
05:43:51 <ehird> coppro: because x11 autodetected your display's ppi.
05:43:57 <ehird> firefox ignores all that.
05:43:59 <ehird> because it's shit.
05:44:09 <coppro> but I have DPI-forcing on!
05:44:28 <ehird> fuck yeah, integratin' into my environment 'n shit
05:44:37 <ehird> *official epiphany gangsta sign*
05:46:18 * coppro sets font size to 16 and things look sane
05:46:24 <ehird> coppro: bad doggy.
05:46:31 <ehird> sites that do font-size: foopx; will break.
05:46:41 <ehird> about:config and set yerself some ppi if you want it to work
05:46:52 <ehird> coppro: I suggest you get used to it, though, unless you really like freakishly-tiny images
05:48:17 * coppro has fiddled with font sizes and is now satisfied
05:48:33 <ehird> it will work for google, which uses relative font sizes.
05:48:41 <ehird> not so for the 90% of sites that set font size absolutely.
05:49:32 <ehird> more pixels are alas not objectively better in the current situation
05:49:49 <ehird> coppro: if you want knock the zoom up, so that images and text are sized up
05:49:55 <ehird> a bit pixelated ofc
05:50:28 * coppro tries to remember his 6th rss feed on the toolbar
05:58:58 <ehird> dear xchat-gnome: i really don't need a server lag indicator in that otherwise-empty status bar
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06:11:19 <zzo38> Can low-level FPGA programming be done?
06:11:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to do?
06:12:09 <ehird> Isn't that all FPGA programming?
06:12:40 <zzo38> No, I mean *really* low-level, like, not Verilog or VHDL, but just programming each gate individually manually by hand.
06:12:57 <ehird> Just use that subset of Verilog/VHDL.
06:13:04 <ehird> I'm sure they have such things at the lowest layer.
06:13:12 <ehird> Sounds like a world of pain.
06:14:43 <zzo38> I want to learn how each gates works individually, and then I can write macros in Forth.
06:15:03 <zzo38> And, each macro can be a subroutine to write stuff into memory or into a file, and then loads the FPGA
06:15:15 <zzo38> "Why do people think legalizing drugs is The Answer? I thought The Answer was 42." -- some quote from I don't know what (but it can be found in my game ASCMZXTO.MZX)
06:15:19 <ehird> Do you want to invent a replacement for electricity too because you didn't write it? :P
06:15:40 <ehird> Magnetic computer.
06:16:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is a interesting idea. Maybe a esolang can be made about magnetic computer.
06:16:08 <zzo38> I (or someone else) can add it to the idea list
06:16:28 <ehird> Also: Optical computer, air-based computer (think little balls pushed by fans)
06:16:44 <ehird> Don't think the latter can be TC; the former might be with quantumly stuff.
06:16:53 <zzo38> Those are also interesting idea.
06:16:54 <ehird> Magnetic computers probably can be TC (assuming infinite space)
06:17:22 <zzo38> Gravity computer has already been done in esolangs.
06:19:45 <ehird> Anyway, a magnetic computer seems to be the most obvious idea to work out of all of those.
06:20:08 <ehird> I can't really think of much you could do with crossing lasers, and the air doesn't count; you need electricity for the fans.
06:20:37 <ehird> But a magnetic computer seems simple: you can do chain reactions, and have magnets stay in states stably, plus you can keep them out of equilibrium.
06:20:49 <ehird> Also, it'd look cool.
06:21:27 <zzo38> Yes, I think it would be interesting to make.
06:23:04 <ehird> zzo38: it couldn't go perpetually though, could it?
06:23:09 <ehird> you'd need to set it off every so often
06:24:20 <zzo38> Of course, if you make a esolang you could assume it is automatically set it off
06:24:34 <ehird> i think for the basic shape of the computer it should be mounted on the exterior of a cylinder...
06:24:40 <zzo38> But an interpreter on a standard computer might have both option, one for manual and one for automatic
06:24:40 <ehird> that way with weights you can make it turn
06:24:47 <ehird> and interact with stationary things to the side of it
06:24:52 <ehird> depending on its turn state
06:24:54 <coppro> ok, more annoyances: the mute button operates in hardware :(
06:25:09 <ehird> zzo38: no need for an option
06:25:15 <ehird> nobody wants to sit there hitting "power"
06:25:39 <coppro> ehird: so I can't a) unmute by pressing it again (you have to use up/down for that) b) quickly check to see if I'm muted
06:25:53 <ehird> coppro: use another button
06:26:43 <ehird> Alt+F12 or something
06:26:50 <ehird> or heck, Windows+F12
06:27:11 <ehird> (pot kettle black!)
06:27:19 <coppro> heh... found a solutio
06:27:23 <zzo38> Mute, for what? Please tell me what you are muting?
06:27:28 <ehird> zzo38: his laptop.
06:27:51 -!- ehird has set topic: muting solutio for magnetic computers | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
06:28:17 <coppro> I'll use the Proprietary BloatWare(tm) Launch(r) Key(tm), which is right next to the volume control
06:28:40 <ehird> coppro: i hear that the thinkvantage stuff isn't too terrible, actually.
06:28:47 <ehird> but a whole key for it is ridiculous
06:28:53 <ehird> anyway, just hax the kb :)
06:30:17 * coppro just imagines the support call for that
06:31:08 <ehird> why would you call the presumably useless chinese support team anyway :P
06:31:37 <coppro> well, they've been great so far. They've told me that Lenovo's idea of a windows install disk is called a disk reimage
06:32:01 <ehird> some definition of great.
06:32:11 <ehird> "hello. yes, our product sucks. thanks!"
06:32:35 * coppro enjoys the conversation when he tries to return it
06:32:44 <ehird> return what, the laptop?
06:33:08 <coppro> it will be even tougher because I had to start it to find out they had no useful reinstall disk, in theory accepting the agreement
06:33:08 <ehird> coppro: I'm pretty sure the get-the-windows-tax-back stuff only works if you sue people like that guy.
06:33:18 <coppro> I'll have to explain to them how mistake works in contract law
06:33:30 <ehird> yeah, you don't expect all that to work do you
06:33:40 <ehird> you *did* agree to purchase a notebook with windows...
06:33:51 <coppro> no, the license agreement specifically says you can refund it
06:33:59 <coppro> it's possible, just tricky
06:34:04 <ehird> yeah, but the two contracts disagree
06:34:13 <ehird> the implicit one to lenovo and the one with microsoft
06:34:24 <ehird> the former is the far more visible one, it probably trumps the latter.
06:34:51 <zzo38> : INCL-ONCE IF BEGIN CHAR 0= UNTIL ELSE 1 CONSTANT THEN ;
06:35:11 <ehird> abbreviation? in my forth words?
06:35:23 <coppro> I assumed I'd get a useful method of install
06:35:23 <coppro> also, I'm a minor (whee!)
06:35:39 <ehird> coppro: what does being a minor have to do with anything?
06:35:44 <zzo38> ehird: Change it if you don't like it!
06:35:46 <coppro> ehird: contracts can't bind me!
06:36:02 <ehird> coppro: congratulations, you've never bought anything legally in your life.
06:36:19 <ehird> every company has given you something out of the goodness of your heart after you gave them money
06:36:21 <coppro> ehird: they still exist. I just can't be held to them... you can't either
06:36:39 <ehird> you're still bound by them, you just can't be dinged for not following them.
06:37:00 <coppro> I believe the legal term is 'voidable at the minor's option'
06:37:13 <ehird> "why no officer, please do note that I violated the windows EULA"
06:37:22 <ehird> "i am a broken man"
06:39:54 * coppro writes an email to MS explaining that I void the license agreement.
06:40:20 <ehird> coppro: your error is in believing the law's text has any relevance to the Law. :P
06:40:37 <coppro> ehird: Most of it is common law, actually
06:40:44 <ehird> coppro: also, by voiding it you also void the clause that lets you get a refund...
06:40:53 <ehird> or is that clause in lenovo's?
06:41:14 <coppro> ehird: no, it's part of the agreement prior to you agreeing to it
06:41:37 <ehird> this shit isn't gonna work btw
06:41:40 <zzo38> It doesn't matter, if part of it is voided, you cannot get a refund either in case they didn't allow that in the voiding process of the contract license itself.
06:41:45 <ehird> well, it probably would if you weren't a minor, but they'll just disregard you as a kiddie.
06:42:31 <coppro> zzo38: I believe it's actually two separate contracts on the same text
06:42:41 <coppro> licensing agreements are weird in any case
06:42:54 <ehird> EULAs have never been ruled to be valid
06:42:58 <ehird> so this is all just muddier and muddier.
06:43:00 <zzo38> coppro: O. Really? But, they are bound together though, isn't it?
06:43:06 <ehird> (and they have been ruled to be invalid in some places)
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06:43:55 <zzo38> EULAs may not be valid, but the refund still wouldn't be allowed if the rest of the contract that allowed you to get the refund has been violated, anyways. But, if the refund is a store refund instead, the refund might still be allowed.
06:43:59 <zzo38> But, I'm not quite sure.
06:44:13 <zzo38> It probably doesn't have a lot to do with the EULA, however.
06:44:33 <ehird> at the end of this he's going to get like $50 for >$50 worth in time
06:44:37 <ehird> and probably phone bills
06:44:47 <zzo38> Can anyone here do ANSI screen art?
06:45:58 <ehird> hmm the sata in the t60(p) is 1.5 Gbit.
06:46:06 <ehird> good thing I don't care about throughput
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06:46:51 <ehird> the latest bios hacking work seems to get like a bit over 3.5GiB memory out of it...
06:46:57 <ehird> which is acceptable i guess
06:48:23 <ehird> Mb = 1 000 000 bits. Mib = 1 024 000 bits. MB = 1 000 000 bytes. MiB = 1 024 000 bytes.
06:48:31 <ehird> Fuck yeah, case-differing units.
06:49:48 <fizzie> 1024000 is a very strange choice; are you sure you don't want 1048576 instead?
06:50:29 <ehird> Mb = 1 000 000 bits. Mib = 1 048 576 bits. MB = 1 000 000 bytes. MiB = 1 048 576 bytes.
06:51:26 <ehird> So, my internet connection is 8Mb/s, and I get about 800KiB/s in practice.
06:51:32 <ehird> (Still on the fence about KiB vs kiB.)
06:54:52 <ehird> Sigh, I'm getting tired of "lol linux is unusable" crap.
06:57:55 <fizzie> Spam subject: "Magic berry that will make you look like a princess." Er.
06:58:07 <fizzie> I'm not sure I want to be the prettiest princess around.
06:59:16 <augur> HEY GUYS HOWS IT GOIN
06:59:48 <augur> you're pretty princessish in general
07:00:41 <ehird> fizzie is the fizziest. fizzlest.
07:01:36 <fizzie> That's a bit fizzcessive, yes.
07:07:10 <ehird> today's xkcd: at least an original expression of an only-slightly-interesting thing everyone knows/
07:07:13 <ehird> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=974#comic
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07:17:46 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Crops_Kansas_AST_20010624.jpg?crop ;; this looks so unreal. backgrounded!
07:21:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood_: what, my face?
07:22:28 <ehird> that's what she irrigated. using a center pivot.
07:22:33 <ehird> anyway, it's pretty.
07:22:46 <ehird> especially the tilting
07:24:29 <fizzie> "Haha, your face, it's so inefficient!" has to be one of the strangest insults.
07:26:03 <fizzie> The problem with tiling window managers is I never really get to see my background image.
07:26:23 <ehird> funny. that's the problem i have with spawning windows like there's no tomorrow.
07:26:29 <ehird> why close when you can cover/
07:26:32 <ehird> *why close when you can cover?
07:27:00 <ehird> your face uses 78% of available land too, but I don't see anybody calling that too little.
07:27:17 <ehird> anyway, shut up, it makes pretty patterns.
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07:34:46 <bsmntbombdood_> it seems that arranging the circle hexagonally doesn't do any better than the square way
07:38:00 <fizzie> Strange; hexagonal packing should be denser than square: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html
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07:42:42 <bsmntbombdood_> with both you can fit 1 unit circle inside each unit square
07:48:01 <fizzie> I would think the hexagonal packing even looks obviously denser: both have the same distance between circles in one row, but in hexagonal packing the rows are closer together. (Alternatively; if you draw that unit square around each circle, in square packing there's no overlap, while in hexagonal packing there is.)
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08:00:12 <bsmntbombdood_> draw a unit square through half of one of the circles, and the centers of two of it neighbors
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08:25:28 <mycroftiv> sphere packing in higher dimensions is pretty interesting stuff
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08:56:26 <ehird> Oh fucking hell, Tk on X11.
08:56:37 <ehird> Has a thing more hideous existed.
09:21:55 <augur> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1643#comic
09:22:21 <augur> this would be humorous if we werent already saturated with so many signals 24/7
09:25:35 <ehird> what's that supposed to mean
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09:26:24 <augur> radio signals, tv signals, cell phone signals, wifi signals, etc etc etc
09:26:30 <augur> all permeate the human body
09:26:42 <augur> and if you're in any place that gets any of those
09:26:52 <augur> then your body has them streaming through you all the time
09:27:14 <ehird> if it wasn't in some way inaccurate
09:27:17 <ehird> they wouldn't call it a comic
09:27:21 <ehird> they'd call it a textbook
09:27:25 <augur> its not inaccurate
09:27:49 <augur> it's just oblivious to the fact that its presuppositions arent correct!
09:28:16 <ehird> i am sure mr weiner will be interested in your complaint
09:29:18 <ehird> for instance augur
09:29:18 <ehird> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1647#comic
09:29:21 <ehird> this would never happen
09:29:26 <ehird> therefore it is not funny
09:29:47 <augur> that makes no sense
09:29:49 <ehird> its presuppositions, so to speak
09:29:52 <augur> this is not about what would or wouldnt happen
09:30:09 <ehird> 's about the mismatch of comic reality : real reality
09:30:15 <augur> yes, except thats the problem
09:30:24 <augur> there IS no mismatch in the comic i linked to
09:30:26 <ehird> it's called humour
09:30:36 <ehird> augur: dude, stfu.
09:30:37 <augur> thats precisely my point
10:02:08 <mycroftiv> im never bored, but thats because im in a state of constant low grade panic over the statistical arguments for the relatively short expected lifetime of a technological civilization from a cosmological perspective
10:03:04 <ehird> it doesn't really matter if you don't survive.
10:03:51 <mycroftiv> my selfish genes want to transmit their information content into the future though, and the memetic equivalents that i perceive as my value structures want beethoven's music to still be played in 100 billion years
10:04:46 <ehird> it seems likely to me that a technological civilization can either undergo a technological singularity, and survive, or collapse
10:05:02 <ehird> that is to say, singularity or bunk!
10:05:05 <mycroftiv> and the evidence from looking at the universe is pretty discouraging
10:05:40 <ehird> though if we have a singularity it'll be almost certain that we make music many orders of a magnitude better than beethoven very quickly
10:05:44 <mycroftiv> if civilizations could actually stay on the energy manipulation and population curve that weve been on, there would be multiple 'god class' civilizations in the observable universe, probably
10:05:52 <ehird> and so that's probably not conductive to your goal
10:06:10 <mycroftiv> that would be nice, i for one welcome our artificially intelligent compositional overlords creating algorithmic music of heart stopping beauty
10:06:29 <ehird> technically those overlords would be, um, us.
10:07:08 <ehird> anyway, civilization is basically made up of idiots because people are idiots.
10:07:40 <ehird> a singularity is probably the only even vaguely easy way to rapidly self-improve our intelligence, and thus become less idiotic
10:07:52 <ehird> so the "singularity or bust" theory isn't very arbitrary
10:08:00 <mycroftiv> only relatively speaking, compared to the average lobster we are pretty smart, and a lobster is a genius compared with a hydrogen molecule
10:08:07 <ehird> well, more specifically we need the unidioticness to manage and control resources
10:08:19 <ehird> everything beyond that is mostly irrelevant as far as maintaining a society goes. although culture helps.
10:08:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: yah, but lobsters don't cover a planet and then start to destroy it without coming up with a way to get off it.
10:08:44 <ehird> they're too stupid to be dangerous.
10:08:47 <ehird> we're too stupid not to be.
10:08:49 <mycroftiv> yeah despite my psychological affinity for cultural productions like music i agree that we need fewere musicians and more energy researchers, etc
10:09:01 <ehird> or AI researchers :P
10:09:06 <ehird> "if in doubt, offload the problem!"
10:09:38 <mycroftiv> i think we already have emergent AI in the real world, we just dont realize it because its operating at a higher hierarchical organizational scale than human individuals
10:09:56 <ehird> i think we have what could suggest future cognitive structures
10:10:04 <ehird> but it just isn't there yet
10:10:12 <ehird> or at least, it's dumber than a rock
10:10:22 <ehird> see, ants make up a smart ant colony
10:10:34 <ehird> but ants aren't actively stupid causing them to work against the colony
10:10:38 <mycroftiv> im kind of a minimalist/operationalist when it comes to AI so from my perspective weve had emergent artificial intelligences embedded within our symbol systems on higher levels for a long time
10:10:42 <ehird> they're just not clever enough to achieve things themselves
10:10:53 <mycroftiv> but that it has been incredibly accelerated due to the digital revolution
10:10:54 <ehird> we, however, are dumb enough to be actively hostile, intentional or not, to the hivemind
10:11:25 <mycroftiv> well, i have a pretty perverse belief that we should be actively fighting the hivemind because the emergent entity has interests that our contrary to ours as individuals
10:11:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: that's the thing, isn't it: it's kind of hard to make a hivemind Friendly AI
10:12:04 <ehird> because you can't exactly program it at the top level...
10:12:24 <mycroftiv> thats why you better program the Three Laws of Robotics into your new OS
10:12:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: please say you just joked
10:13:04 <ehird> i am tired of people thinking the three laws are suitable or helpful in any way :(
10:13:14 <mycroftiv> since the 3 laws are not algorithmically formulatable its obviously a joke
10:13:38 <ehird> they're really terrible laws; evil is perfectly possible with them and it inhibits much good
10:14:41 <mycroftiv> are you implying that the pop cultural versions of classic sci-fi concepts are not actually a suitable organizational framework for the society of the future?
10:14:58 <ehird> you wouldn't believe that things not too abstracted from that have actually been said in seriousness, would you.
10:15:01 <mycroftiv> as a jedi knight in training whos planning on attending starfleet academy soon and then going to work for the gray lensmen, i am upset
10:15:22 <ehird> (i would have used "deeply offended" instead of "upset" though)
10:15:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: another common idiocy - "Strong AI? Haven't you ever seen The Terminator?"
10:15:54 <ehird> yep, that piece of fiction is so... accurate? true?
10:17:07 <mycroftiv> i already suspect you of being an AI agent ehird, my superiors in the Time Corps are linked in and monitoring this channel
10:17:31 <mycroftiv> your disinformation campaign wont succeed, weve beaten you before - IN THE FUTURE
10:17:37 <ehird> i'm a hivemind with exactly one mind
10:17:56 <ehird> ...give or take an internet and a sphere of people
10:18:09 <mycroftiv> no i actually believe the human race has already lost control, since the late 1800s or so
10:18:17 <mycroftiv> didnt even need digital tech to do it
10:18:59 <mycroftiv> i place the time of transition of society run for human beings to society run on the behalf of the emergent structures controlling it to occur at the time of mechanical clock synchronization by the railroads, pretty much
10:20:23 <ehird> i wonder if post-singularity societies sit around, going
10:20:23 <ehird> so we're improving every planck time
10:20:23 <ehird> this is really boring, a huge vast expanse of all uh
10:20:23 <ehird> we've been in this thing
10:20:23 <ehird> when do we get to the next thing
10:20:24 <ehird> (the next thing happens to be using time as an additional spatial dimension to improve even faster :-P)
10:20:59 <mycroftiv> have you read accelerando by charlie stross? available under open source license and the best novel i know of inspired by singularity ideas
10:21:31 <mycroftiv> i think his hypothesis that matrioshka brain civilizations are too bound to their star to undertake interstellar travel might actually be correct
10:21:39 <ehird> anyone putting any kind of restriction on their work clearly isn't a real singularitarian though :P
10:21:42 <mycroftiv> that would be a nice resolution of the fermi paradox
10:22:03 <mycroftiv> eh, the modern singularity people dont seem to view it in the old fashioned mckenna way anymore that much
10:22:22 <ehird> what inferrences are you making from my line
10:22:23 <mycroftiv> ok, well, gotta give some background on this
10:22:31 <ehird> how did you get from
10:22:36 <ehird> <ehird> anyone putting any kind of restriction on their work clearly isn't a real singularitarian though :P
10:22:41 <ehird> eh, the modern singularity people dont seem to view it in the old fashioned mckenna way anymore that much
10:23:15 <mycroftiv> my first contact with the idea of technological singularity was via robert anton wilson when i was a teenager back in the 80s, in his book 'cosmic trigger'
10:23:35 <ehird> the way I meant it was that any society-enforce restrictions on digital information at all is inherently antithetical to the singularity
10:24:16 <mycroftiv> and his reference was the mckenna brothers who thought technological change would accelerate to the point where we basically became godlike intelligences (he also linked it to that mayan calendar bullshit long before it became pop cultural, i never expected that shit to make it mainstream)
10:24:30 <ehird> Wow, Colin Percival of FreeBSD fame entered university at 13.
10:25:03 <mycroftiv> the modern formulation of singularity theory backs off from claims like 'achieving godlikeness' with that wishy-washy 'singularity is the point at which technology causes the future to be unpredictable on the basis of what has gone before'
10:25:17 <mycroftiv> which is a nice kind of mathematically/relativistically inspired way of putting it i guess, but its a non-claim really
10:25:18 <ehird> There's multiple branches of singularity theory, fwiw.
10:25:27 <ehird> It's very hard to predict anything by its very nature.
10:26:18 <ehird> Personally I think the most likely way for it to happen (as a traditional, separate-AI singularity) is: AI starts up, takes over everything, develops mind uploading, offers it, the poor sods who don't want their mind uploaded are SOL
10:26:46 <ehird> (I imagine that totally self-improving the brain without limit is a harder to develop with a physical brain than both developing mind uploading and self-improvement software working in digital.)
10:27:08 <ehird> by SOL I mean exactly the same as before :P
10:27:18 <ehird> prolly including the religious as they waddle around waiting for god to come defeat this evil satan.
10:28:07 <ehird> I guess "massively self-improved uploaded minds" is pretty close to "achieving godliness in the fabric of the cosmos", but it's less bullshitty.
10:28:07 <mycroftiv> i cant really hypothesize too well without an answer to the question of whether or not the informational content and functioning of the brain can be accurately simulated with significant abstraction away from the wetware
10:28:22 <ehird> If it can't be, let us change it so it can.
10:28:27 <mycroftiv> well, a lot of the old old fashioned singularity stuff was based much more on energy manipulation than on information processing
10:28:56 <ehird> Anyway, it's easier to flip a bit than to mess with a gooey blob, so even if it can't be the uploading is a plus.
10:28:56 <mycroftiv> the old curves they traced were tracing the amount of mass-energy that could be manipulated technologically
10:28:58 <mycroftiv> and saying those curves extrapolated to galaxy-scaled rebuilding and restructuring pretty soon
10:29:17 <mycroftiv> thats mostly been abandoned in favor of the much more sensible AI based scenarios
10:29:29 <ehird> Amusingly, throughout the whole singularity meme, Vernor Vinge, its originator, has seemed to kept one of the levellest heads about it.
10:29:51 <mycroftiv> i dont consider him the originator, i would say it goes back to at least Teilhard de Chardin
10:30:08 <ehird> mycroftiv: every idea has predecessors
10:30:51 <ehird> but he wrote the piece that named it, defined it as one single idea and predicted things about it
10:30:51 <ehird> and is widely credited with originating it
10:30:51 <ehird> good enough for me
10:32:02 <mycroftiv> well, not good enough for me, but i guess its a semantic issue, i really think the exact concept of the singularity was well expressed by the mckenna brothers in the 70s
10:32:35 <ehird> yes, the basic concept is relatively obvious, I'd say. but without Vinge, any discussions about it would look very, very different than they do today.
10:33:14 <mycroftiv> yes, i dont think it would have made it out of the cult/esoteric circuit probably
10:33:26 <ehird> it arguably hasn't.
10:33:59 <ehird> in fact when thinking about the singularity I often have to step back and go "wait, wait, like *everyone* considers this seriously crazy. am I thinking sanely about this?"
10:34:06 <mycroftiv> well, i cant really assess, im honestly not part of my society so i have no clue whats mainstream
10:34:23 <mycroftiv> or rather 'my society' is an extremely nonstandard subset
10:34:46 <mycroftiv> since this channel for instance is a reference to me for 'what other people think about things'
10:34:55 <mycroftiv> and you/we are probably atypical, statistically
10:35:19 <mycroftiv> ehird, when i talk to other other people, you get to be the hand-wavy 'everyone says'
10:35:30 <ehird> what, me in particular?
10:35:48 <ehird> oh, I've heard of this Charles Stross' novels before.
10:35:51 <mycroftiv> uh, not specially-specifically, but probably the next time im talking to person Y about tech singularity, ill say
10:36:03 <mycroftiv> "everyone says vernor vinge is the most important figure in the modern construction of the concept
10:36:28 <ehird> augur: this is a channel for talking.
10:36:35 <ehird> you can gtfo if you'd prefer silence
10:36:36 <augur> it is not for talking
10:36:50 <augur> dont make me rape you, ehird
10:37:06 <ehird> how can you rape an immortal uploaded mind.
10:37:09 <ehird> that doesn't even make any sense.
10:37:14 <ehird> oops, that's confidential
10:37:54 <augur> i delight in the knowledge that i probably just broke like 10 pretty serious laws
10:38:15 <ehird> i'm pretty sure joking "don't make me rape you" to a 14 year old over the internet isn't illegal.
10:38:20 <ehird> well, maybe in the usa.
10:38:21 <mycroftiv> me too, im glad its not just me - so whats your tip for getting blood off a chainsaw?
10:38:26 <augur> it probably is in the US
10:38:36 <ehird> mycroftiv: i think you'll have to ask hans reiser[1]
10:38:45 <ehird> 1. http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/so-i-married-a-kernel-programmer
10:39:24 <ehird> i don't like how the marquee there doesn't blink nowadays because of stupid anti-blink fascist browsers :(
10:39:27 <mycroftiv> ive decided i really need to set up a surveillance system to monitor myself, so i can prove im not a terrorist or murderer
10:40:07 <ehird> i don't think that will be necessary.
10:40:40 <mycroftiv> since i fit every profile of sociopathic unabomber types, i really want to document what im doing and when so when somebody in my town does something evil and the computer systems flag me as a statistical match for the profile, i can document myself
10:41:11 <Asztal> which browser ignores <blink>? :(
10:41:14 <ehird> why is it that people have such an overinflated opinion of how uncommon they are. :)
10:41:21 <ehird> and i think webkit
10:41:35 <Asztal> are you sure it's not just browser.blink_allowed = false?
10:41:45 <Asztal> I thought it worked by default.
10:42:04 <mycroftiv> actually its the commonality thats the problem, the vast proportion of false positives
10:42:13 <ehird> Asztal: well not in epiphany at least
10:43:06 <ehird> mycroftiv: here's an aspect of the unabomber you don't (presumably) fit: you don't mail bomb people
10:43:11 <ehird> Asztal: they're pretty.
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10:45:23 <mycroftiv> exactly, which is why it can only be beneficial to me to document what im doing
10:45:29 <mycroftiv> kind of a pascal's wager type thing
10:45:40 <ehird> i think that's a little over-paranoid
10:45:43 <ehird> better things to do with your time
10:45:54 <mycroftiv> since the other stuff i do with my time is plan 9 programming, are you sure?
10:46:10 <ehird> well, that at least is possibly amusing to someone other than yourself :P
10:47:24 <mycroftiv> given what we know (and i mean the factual stuff that has been publicly announced/admitted, not the crazy tinfoil hat stuff) about data collection and computerized analysis, a certain concern over how you are going to look from a statistical point of view seems to me to be warranted
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11:02:41 <ehird> "oh and the internet isnt science, its tech.
11:02:41 <ehird> dick head" --YouTube comments
11:05:20 <fizzie> People around here tend to put cartoon printouts in their office doors; if I had my own room, instead of this shared thing, I'd probably put the first row of http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/caveman-science-fiction/ up. It describes our research well.
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11:12:57 <ehird> i wonder if i could like, solder the t60(p) mobo to make it support the full 4gb of ram :)
11:14:48 <ehird> "Implications of the Turing completeness of reaction-diffusion models, informed by GPGPU simulations on an XBox 360: Cardiac arrhythmias, re-entry and the Halting problem"
11:14:55 <ehird> i so appreciate my heart like 10x more now
11:14:59 <ehird> also the xbox 360.
11:15:17 <mycroftiv> ok, im googling that text to find out wtf this is
11:16:04 <ehird> http://igoro.com/archive/human-heart-is-a-turing-machine-research-on-xbox-360-shows-wait-what/ layman's explanation
11:16:10 <ehird> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/79271/turing.pdf peedy eff
11:16:24 <ehird> i think it means our hearts are turing complete or something.
11:16:29 <ehird> well, presumably with finite memory.
11:17:31 <mycroftiv> the argument is fascinating, it seems to rest on the idea that turing completeness is a barrier to predictability due to the halting problem, but i need to read this in detail because that basic argument seems a bit specious to me
11:17:42 * ehird spurts liquid out of mouth
11:17:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: you read the whole paper that quickly?
11:18:01 <mycroftiv> no, thats basically the abstract...
11:18:47 <ehird> well you'll have to understand cardiology, xbox 360 optimisation, differential equations, turing completeness and shading languages
11:18:48 <fizzie> ehird: Based on his(?) paper-reading speed, I suspect one of those immortal uploaded minds.
11:19:13 <mycroftiv> i think i have a decent grasp on about 50% of that stuff
11:20:05 <mycroftiv> differential equations are pretty easy to *understand* but they are challenging to 'work with' -fortunately when you are just reading the paper the paper's authors have done that stuff for you
11:20:41 <ehird> "This is a fairly standard way of doing comments in BF." ;; why isn't everyone who says such things in here already? :P
11:22:25 <mycroftiv> hmm, there is a weird circularity about this paper
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11:22:52 <mycroftiv> the thing is that what is being studied for turing completeness is the computational model of reaction diffusion
11:23:38 <mycroftiv> so you could make an argument that just because the computer model you create is turing complete, that doesnt necessarily prove anything fundamental about the physical system being modeled, unless you can prove they are fully isometric, which of course isnt possible with any squishy biological systems
11:23:51 <ehird> STOP RUINING MY FANTASTISE
11:24:06 <mycroftiv> since this involves fluid dynamics, you are instantly in the domain of the navier-stokes equations to begin with, and those arent even proved non-singular, thats one of the big prizes
11:24:16 <ehird> anyway we clearly just need to fuck with someone's heart to see if it works.
11:25:36 <mycroftiv> really though - hmm...since turing completeness is so minimal...i mean cant all physical systems 'do arithmetic' so to speak? ive seen this topic addressed elsewhere actually, i wonder if these guys...lemme check their citations
11:26:43 <ehird> http://www.linusakesson.net/files/lft_craft.avi this is great
11:26:59 <mycroftiv> this bibliography is great, you see a citation for 4 dudes paper 'real-time memory on an excitable field' and the next citation is 'prince of persia', ubisoft
11:29:36 <mycroftiv> well, this paper is great, but i think their final conclusion based on the halting problem is totally incorrect
11:29:56 <mycroftiv> the argument is technically correct but they ignore something all programmers should know
11:30:23 <mycroftiv> just because the halting problem is theoretically indecidable algorithmically and in general doesnt mean that you cant actually answer it in practice for a huge number of programs...
11:30:33 <ehird> that's still damn hard
11:30:53 <ehird> also, how did the C64 address 64K of RAM? 8 bits = 0.25KiB
11:31:01 <ehird> I guess it used a larger memory bus thingy.
11:31:16 <mycroftiv> they are saying that because what goes on in the heart is a superset of a utm, the goal of predicting arythmias and stuff like that runs into the halting problem
11:31:30 <ehird> bullshit, the state is finite and probably small
11:31:31 <mycroftiv> which is true as far as it goes, but that doesnt go very far
11:31:36 <ehird> you can just check to see if it repeats :P
11:32:28 <mycroftiv> yeah i think the fact is that godel and turing type 'problem cases' are very much shown to be atypical of 'generic' situations for the most part
11:33:04 <mycroftiv> for the same reason that a working programmer isnt 'hung up' by the halting problem in doing their coding, i doubt working cardiologists or heart researchers will be stuck because of the turing completenesss
11:33:26 <ehird> anyone know about the c64?
11:33:51 <mycroftiv> from hands on experience yes, but not too much technically despite childhood enthusiasms
11:34:12 <ehird> <ehird> that's still damn hard
11:34:12 <ehird> also, how did the C64 address 64K of RAM? 8 bits = 0.25KiB
11:34:12 <ehird> I guess it used a larger memory bus thingy.
11:34:46 <mycroftiv> there were quite a few tricks and hacks used in all that old old pc hardware
11:35:05 <mycroftiv> i remember my family's apple ][ had an expansion board that let it use 128k in some weird bank switched mode
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11:36:19 <ehird> hmm, maybe they just addressed by memory-value, where memory-value = 16 bits
11:36:28 <ehird> doubt it though, prolly just a different-sized memory bus
11:37:23 <mycroftiv> heres some delicious nostalgia http://sta.c64.org/cbm64mem.html
11:38:15 <mycroftiv> i well remember doing direct memory poking to operate the sid chip for audio sltuff
11:38:29 * ehird gets itchy to write a proper multitasking OS for the c64
11:39:00 <mycroftiv> im pretty sure the hobbyist magazines would print musical themes in the form of poke sequences
11:39:59 <mycroftiv> what was the gui os for c64, um geos i think?
11:40:38 <ehird> afaik no c64 OSes try to do what windows did for dos; multiplex "native" apps
11:40:42 <ehird> of course, that's ridiculously hard
11:41:19 <mycroftiv> id like to see a c64 based hypervisor for virtualized vic20s and PETs
11:50:49 <fizzie> C64 has a 16 bits wide address bus, yes.
11:51:25 <ehird> laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame
11:51:52 <fizzie> The registers are only 8 bits wide, though. There's a couple of different addressing modes there.
11:52:12 <ehird> real men use 10-bit architectures
11:52:21 <ehird> it's divisible by two, it's a whole kilo of ram, what else do you fucking need
11:53:43 <fizzie> Many instructions support absolute addressing, with a two-byte address following the one-byte opcode; and then there are two indirect modes that read a two-byte pointer from the zero page (memory locations 0..255) and use that.
11:53:56 <ehird> in fact you know what, use a fucking 9-bit architecture and have a separate ROM
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11:54:00 <ehird> to store the program in
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11:54:25 <zzo38> I added one in anarchy golf, I hope there is not a mistake.
11:55:07 <ehird> The only issue is that I have no idea what I'm meant to do :P
11:55:10 <fizzie> There's still quite a lot of kludgery in the C16. The video chip (VIC-II) has only 14 address bits, and the top two bits are generated by (iirc) two outputs from the CIA chip.
11:55:24 <ehird> to hell with the SID
11:55:30 <ehird> unneeded complexity
11:55:55 <fizzie> Certainly there's probably a lot kludgery in the C16 too, but I've never used one.
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11:57:26 <ehird> The C16 looks like a target for demoscenery
11:58:20 <fizzie> It's not very popular; all the action happens on the VIC-20 and C64.
11:58:26 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.commodore16.com/index.php/component/content/article/49-how-to/327-creating-amazing-c16plus-4-images.html
11:58:31 <ehird> It can do more colours than the C64.
12:00:57 <fizzie> No sprites, though. (There's been quite a lot of trickery involving the VIC-II sprites, since they can be used to generate interrupts.)
12:01:52 <ehird> there aren't enough fun C64-era computers
12:01:55 <fizzie> And "more colours without flickering" would probably be more accurate; people do the "get a mixed colour by alternating a pixel between two colours every frame" stuff on the C64.
12:02:16 <ehird> Yes, but you could flicker this too.
12:02:51 <fizzie> Sure, but why on earth would you want more than 121 colours?
12:04:28 <ehird> You could almost run monkey island's DOS version with 242 colours.
12:11:06 <fizzie> A still image is going to be probably all you can manage with the full palette, anyway; the whole FLI mess is pretty demanding of resources. (The standard multicolor mode only lets you use a four-color palette -- of which one is the global background color -- in each 4x8-pixel cell of the 160x200 multicolor mode.)
12:12:21 <ehird> Wonder how many FPS you can get.
12:12:45 <ehird> You could use properties of the eye to keep a certain colour longer than an exaggerated blink, to try and overcome the low FPS.
12:15:21 <fizzie> Oh, and the frame-flicker-color-mixing thing on the C64 has another upside: you can use the hardware scrolling register to shift the second image vertically by half a pixel (the 160x200 multicolor mode pixels are built out of two 320x200 pixels) so you get sort-of 320x200 resolution too. Except that color of a single pixel in frame A is then mixed with the right and left halves of two pixels in frame B.
12:15:32 <fizzie> s/vertically/horizontally/
12:15:42 <fizzie> (I am a thinko today.)
12:17:15 <ehird> fizzie: Take that, and hook a C64 up to an LCD.
12:17:26 <ehird> (b) the most confusing display technology ever
12:19:57 <fizzie> At least the C128 had a digital video-out for the second graphics chipset; in 1985, quite a bit before the proliferation of DVI. (Okay, so it's not that impressive when you consider that the EGA monitor connector was digital too.)
12:20:31 <ehird> I mean, with that image-shifting plus the weird pixel situation, subpixels are just going to make it even more confusing.
12:20:50 <ehird> You could use it to make something shake really flickery, right? Like, only shaking one pixel, but shaking many subpixels. So fluider.
12:23:48 <ehird> fizzie: what's your favourite 8-bit computer?
12:24:13 <fizzie> I'm going to have to go with the C128, since it's the only one I actually own.
12:24:27 <fizzie> It's pretty high-end as far as these things go, though.
12:24:34 <ehird> It doesn't really count if it's easier now, does it.
12:24:43 <mycroftiv> i vote apple ][ for the best overall software library
12:24:57 <ehird> mycroftiv: i mean more from a purist point of view
12:25:09 <mycroftiv> oh tech wise you mean? design etc?
12:25:09 <ehird> well, not from is it good as much as nostalgia, but not due to the software base
12:25:19 <ehird> just like "oh well I like the apple ][ a lot."
12:26:37 <fizzie> The C128 doesn't really make things much "easier" w.r.t. C64 (which I guess is a reasonably high-end computer already); about the only thing it's got going is double the memory size, and even so only half of it is addressable at any one time.
12:27:35 <mycroftiv> to me the later revisions on the c64 platform didnt quite do enough to make them very exciting
12:27:35 <ehird> way too much memory. you could even forget about compact spacing.
12:28:10 <fizzie> Well, the unexpanded VIC-20 (about 4K of RAM) has a certain charm too.
12:28:26 <mycroftiv> oh yeah the vic and even the pet are great
12:28:30 <fizzie> And the PET is so incredibly sci-fi.
12:28:33 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Commodore_PET2001.jpg
12:28:42 <mycroftiv> they had those in my elementary school and we made fun of them
12:29:19 <ehird> The VIC-20 is basically a retarded C64, isn't it?
12:29:23 <mycroftiv> i believe i still own an original sherlock holmes fanfic i wrote as a kid that was done on a PET and printed, and its notable because the 'hang down' characters dont work
12:29:30 <ehird> That PET looks sexually retro.
12:30:09 <mycroftiv> yeah you can just see the girl with the bullet bra and beehive hairdo wearing tight white vinyl clothes and hear the 70s jazz-funk soundtrack
12:30:22 <ehird> Does the PET even have graphics mode?
12:30:45 <mycroftiv> no, i think all the 'graphics' were done with graphical text characters, ascii art style
12:30:54 <mycroftiv> but they made special character set for doin graphics with little diagonal lines etc
12:31:54 <ehird> shame. it looks really sweet, but you can't really have a fun demo time without gfx
12:31:59 <mycroftiv> i think that character set carried through to the c64 even
12:32:07 <ehird> http://www.atariarchives.org/cgp/images/img188-1.JPG
12:32:09 <ehird> what's this then eh
12:32:17 <ehird> This book shows you how to create your own video graphics on the new personal computers being sold across the country. It is oriented toward the Radio Shack TRS-80, the Commodore PET 2001, and the Apple II home computers, and it is geared to the user who wants to know the concepts and techniques for drawing pictures, making graphs and charts, animating shapes and objects, creating mandalas and dazzlers, and just about any application of the visual arts tha
12:32:18 <ehird> t you can imagine.
12:33:03 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_CBM-II
12:33:11 <mycroftiv> wikipedia seems to think the pet couldnt bitmap
12:33:21 <fizzie> Technically speaking the VIC-20 does not have a "graphics mode" either, but you can point the character generator at RAM memory and redefine the character shapes, which sort-of gives you a graphics mode, except messier.
12:33:22 <ehird> The P series used the VIC-II 40-column color video chip like the C64
12:33:34 <ehird> so we have a PET with a C64 video chip here
12:33:38 <ehird> to boot, it's obscure
12:33:45 <ehird> unfortunately, it has a hueg 128KiB of RAM
12:34:38 <mycroftiv> aha, i was right about those graphical character symbols...called 'petscii' apparently which is fucking ADORABLE
12:35:09 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Atari8.png
12:35:12 <fizzie> Yes, petscii's still there in the C128 and anything.
12:35:14 <ehird> I just became an Atari 8-bit fan
12:36:12 <ehird> http://oldcomputers.net/atari400.html
12:36:35 <ehird> 320x192 monochrome
12:36:48 <ehird> released in fucking 1979
12:37:04 <ehird> also: [[the Atari 400 has an "advanced child-proof design featuring pressure-sensitive, wipe-clean keyboard"]]
12:37:12 <fizzie> More power than in the VIC-20. :p
12:37:15 <ehird> is it just me, or was the C64 like super-obsolete before it came out???
12:37:21 <ehird> this awesome thing came out in 1979
12:38:02 <ehird> not sure it has audio though
12:38:20 <ehird> http://oldcomputers.net/atari800.html
12:38:30 <ehird> bigger brother to it, same basic specs but with more slots and stuff
12:38:40 <ehird> "The Atari 800 has multiple special purpose co-processors for sound and graphics to take the load off of the 6502 CPU, and it has sprites and collision-detection built into its hardware, so it is an excellent game machine. "
12:38:45 <ehird> i'm one of two opinions
12:38:49 <ehird> (a) way too easy, 400 is better
12:38:57 <ehird> (b) how could we abuse that for crazy purposes?
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12:41:28 <ehird> any opin'yunz on that thing?
12:41:39 <fizzie> Awesomity (or at least obsoletity, or market approval) is not always about the specs, though. To quote, "the greatest competitors to the C64 were the Atari 8-bit 400 and 800 -- [which] were very similar in hardware terms, but used custom chips for graphics and sound, and so were very expensive to build. -- One key to the C64's success was Commodore's aggressive marketing tactics, and they were quick to exploit the relative price/performance divisions betwee
12:41:39 <fizzie> n its competitors with a series of television commercials after the C64's launch in late 1982."
12:41:50 <fizzie> I'm not really an Atari person, I don't have an opinion there.
12:42:15 <fizzie> But the C64 does hardware sprites and collision-detection too, so I wouldn't go so far as to call it obsolete.
12:42:29 <fizzie> Er, or maybe I could call it obsolete nowadays, but anyway.
12:42:40 <ehird> Was I calling anything obsolete?
12:42:55 <fizzie> <ehird> is it just me, or was the C64 like super-obsolete before it came out???
12:43:12 <fizzie> With three question marks and all.
12:43:15 <ehird> well yeah, cause it was 3 years after the atari 400/800 and terribly similar
12:44:17 <fizzie> Just being similar to products already on the market doesn't really mean obsolete; though certainly it wasn't terribly innovative on the tech side.
12:44:59 <fizzie> "In January 1983, Commodore offered a $100 rebate in the United States on the purchase of a C64 to anyone trading in another computer or video game console. To take advantage of this rebate, some mail-order dealers and retailers offered a Timex Sinclair 1000 for as little as $10 with purchase of a C64, so the consumer could send the TS1000 to Commodore, collect the rebate, and pocket the difference; Timex Corporation departed the marketplace within a year."
12:45:02 <ehird> yes, but the tech was *old*
12:46:57 <ehird> it seems like the apple ii was the first coloured computer on the market
12:49:06 <fizzie> Is that politically correct? Shouldn't you say "a pigment-rich computer" or something?
12:53:03 <mycroftiv> the c64 was amazing in terms of price/performance more than anything else
12:53:38 <ehird> actually no, I don't think so
12:53:57 <mycroftiv> look at the historical prices for it vs its competitors
12:54:13 <ehird> atari 400 $549; .8MHz faster chip, 56KiB less base RAM, similar rest of specs... in 1979
12:54:20 <ehird> the C64 only cost something like $150 to make
12:54:30 <ehird> it wasn't anything special
12:55:34 <mycroftiv> you cant compare 4-8k machine with 64k machines in terms of what they deliver
12:55:44 <ehird> yes, but ram dropped in price
12:55:57 <ehird> the fact is that the atari 400 wasn't wildly, wildly off base... three years ago
12:56:02 <ehird> in a particularly rapid period of computing history
12:56:14 <ehird> and indeed it shows, in that the C64 cost under 200 bux to make but they sold it for 500
12:56:29 <mycroftiv> price when newly released is far from the most important
12:56:36 <mycroftiv> machines had much longer life cycles then
12:56:50 <mycroftiv> the 8 bit era was most of the 80s for home users
12:56:54 <ehird> gggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
12:57:03 <mycroftiv> check out the price of the c64 vs its competition over its historical sale period
12:57:15 <ehird> i guess you're right.
12:57:24 <ehird> the chip kinda sucked though
12:57:27 <ehird> not even any multiplication
12:57:41 <fizzie> It's the same 6502 everyone else had. :p
12:58:00 <mycroftiv> i think about 1984 was probably the high point for it, since then it was selling really cheap but there wasnt really anything superior in the home market until you got to stuff $1000 plus
13:00:43 <fizzie> Personally I rather like Z80 more. At least it does 16-bit operations natively (you can pair up some of the 8-bit registers), and it's got a lot more registers; A, B, C, D, E, H, L compared to A, X, Y in the 6502.
13:01:01 <fizzie> That's why I <3 the C128: it's got them both, built-in.
13:01:41 <ehird> ... dual processors? really?
13:01:58 <fizzie> Well, err... you can't run them simultaneously, of course. :p
13:02:15 <fizzie> The Z80 was there mostly for CP/M compatibility.
13:02:17 <ehird> c64 demos run on the 6502, OS code runs on the Z80 watching it...
13:02:59 <fizzie> There's only one memory bus, after all.
13:03:59 <fizzie> They already share with the display chip; three's a crowd, after all.
13:05:11 <ehird> fizzie: do you think it'd be theoretically possible to run them both at once?
13:05:42 <fizzie> There's no logic on the motherboard to do bus arbitration, so not without some probably fairly extensive hardware mods.
13:08:12 <fizzie> Sharing the memory bus with the VIC-II already halves the (theoretically 4 MHz) clock speed of the Z80; people did complain about the CP/M running slowly because of that.
13:08:33 <ehird> but i want my damn OS cpu.
13:09:58 <fizzie> A 2 MHz Z80 is (according to a rough estimate) equivalent to a 0.5 MHz 8502 (the 6502 clone in C128), since the latter does some pipelining.
13:10:18 <fizzie> "Because of the pipelined architecture of the 8502, a 1 MHz 8502 is approximately comparable in speed with a 4 MHz Z80. However, on the C128, the Z80 only runs at 4 MHz half the time giving an effective clock speed of 2 MHz. This means that the Z80 is only about half as fast as the 8502 (only about a fourth as fast when the 8502 is in 2 MHz mode)."
13:10:41 <ehird> task switching is fast dood :P
13:12:06 <fizzie> Some of the C128 BIOS routines run on the 8502 even in CP/M mode; the Z80 writes arguments to some predefined memory location, wakes up the 8502 and halts; then the 8502 does the work, writes return values to memory, and wakes up the Z80 again.
13:12:46 <ehird> you can't really tell the 8502 to do things when a bitchin' demo is running
13:14:11 <fizzie> Multitasking a *demo* and anything else doesn't really sound feasible, since those things are so very close to the hardware. Feel free to try, of course.
13:14:45 <ehird> C64 demos, naturally. :P
13:15:03 <ehird> It's faster and stuff, you see.
13:15:14 <ehird> fizzie: But I'd need both chips whirring at once to do it.
13:15:22 <ehird> Otherwise that demo will just shit all over everything.
13:16:36 <fizzie> With no memory protection, shared interrupts with no routing, it will probably shit all over everything in any case, even if you could get the Z80 running too. (And the bus cycles lost to the Z80 would probably mess up all timing-related stuff in the demo.)
13:16:56 <ehird> You ruin my hopes; dreams; mayonnaise avocado whip.
13:18:18 <fizzie> Still, while you're doing to necessary hardware hacking to get both CPUs running, you could add a kilobyte or so of Z80-only RAM and some sort of programmable logic chip to route interrupt lines; using that (and the C128 memory banking C64 demos probably don't expect) you might even get something done.
13:19:14 <ehird> Hardware hacking is sort of cheating, though.
13:22:17 <ehird> What does warey even mean?
13:25:22 <fizzie> I don't really know. It sounds like the same thing as "wary".
13:25:59 <ehird> Someone ought to give me an unlimited reign of dictatorship over GNOME so I can fix the bad parts.
13:27:17 <ehird> Like, for instance: My totally made-up-and-only-existing-inside-my-head Activities!
13:27:46 <ehird> And, the important part
13:27:49 <ehird> is that it'd all run on a C64.
14:16:10 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I seem to be constantly ballsing the interpreter up :-(
14:17:28 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: paste the code, I'll try and nudge you in the right direction
14:17:44 <ehird> it's not like making stupid mistakes is an uncommon thing when writing a new type of program :)
14:19:35 <Tinned_Tuna> thank you for putting up with me again :-)
14:20:17 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: correct me if I'm wrong, but when you parse the ], you fail to do self.jump_map[last]=open_blah
14:20:22 <ehird> i.e., the ] to [ mapping
14:20:26 <ehird> you just assign the [ to ] mapping
14:20:40 <ehird> then again, your ] doesn't look at jump_map
14:20:45 <ehird> so I'm not sure how it's supposed to work
14:21:02 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: why the -1 in ]?
14:21:11 <ehird> that executes the instruction before the [, no?
14:21:33 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: also, as you currently have unbounded, signed cells > 0 is wrong
14:21:46 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, no, the instruction pointer is incremented regardless
14:21:49 <ehird> it should be just if self.stack:; that is, if len(self.stack) != 0
14:21:49 <Tinned_Tuna> self.instruction_pointer+=1 # Regardless, we continue!
14:22:02 <ehird> I strongly suggest you make cells wrap 256
14:22:10 <ehird> other than that, I don't see an issue
14:23:31 <Tinned_Tuna> it can execute simple programs, but not those with nested loops, it appears
14:24:03 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: I suggest you drop that stack, and merely assign the ] position to the [ position in the jump map.
14:24:08 <ehird> Then both [ and ] can use the jump_map.
14:24:30 <ehird> That reduces the number of concepts in the interpreter, and so should narrow down the problem.
14:27:47 <Tinned_Tuna> currently my test suite fails on 4 of the 11 tests
14:28:09 <Tinned_Tuna> well, it's more one large TestCase ... :-/
14:28:37 <ehird> you crazy beginning esolangers and yer test suites and yer three-piece bathroom suites
14:28:48 <ehird> why in my day we called a buncha BF programs a shell script for loop
14:32:00 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, I considered that. But then I thought, might as well have nice verbose erroring. Also eclipse runs them all from a single hot-key
14:32:13 <ehird> <Tinned_Tuna> eclipse
14:32:18 <ehird> you are no longer welcome :|
14:32:38 <Tinned_Tuna> eclipse is good, once it's loaded (Assuming you have >2GB RAM available)
14:32:58 <ehird> for a decidedly opposite world definition of good, quite so.
14:33:08 <ehird> specifically, one in the vicinity of "bad".
14:33:51 <Tinned_Tuna> well, my experience shows it to be stable and full of the features I like, at the expense of my RAM. It's not like I'd find any other usage for it.
14:34:25 <ehird> sheesh, and i normally just have to correct one or two brain tumours in new recruits
14:34:30 <ehird> I'm not sure I can do a brain transpl--
14:34:45 <ehird> yes. yes, that gigabyte of RAM Eclipse is using is entirely dedicated to code completion.
14:35:17 <Tinned_Tuna> ehird, not true... it has to compile the java bytecode to a native executable and hold the MASSIVE resulting executable in RAM
14:35:31 <ehird> And it has nobody to blame for this but itself.
14:35:48 <ehird> biggest brainfuck interpreter evar
14:36:05 <Tinned_Tuna> I can run my interpreter outside of eclipse
14:36:25 * ehird huddles off with his assortment of text editors and REPLs, grumbling about darned kids and their bad coding
14:36:44 <ehird> (can you still say "darned kids" if you're only old and cranky in spirit?)
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14:38:05 <ehird> what, down to the planck second?
14:38:14 <ehird> i don't even know exactly what hour i was born.
14:38:28 <ehird> 7 glibons and a half-quantum
14:38:53 <ehird> I believe it's been 14 years since I was pushed out of that perfectly comfortable womb.
14:39:43 <Tinned_Tuna> fair enough, I don't think you can say "darned kids" when you're younger than me
14:40:00 <ehird> that's exactly what a darned kid would say.
14:40:08 <ehird> to dissuade appropriate and well-applied criticism.
14:40:40 <Tinned_Tuna> I write code for a living and goto uni for fun!
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14:41:12 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you solve project euler problems for a living? :P
14:41:14 <Tinned_Tuna> I pay rent, gas, electric and water bills.
14:41:42 <Tinned_Tuna> i.e. what I do when I'm not studying/working
14:42:01 <Tinned_Tuna> my life consists of cycle to uni, work (often involving coding)
14:42:36 <ehird> it'd be more interesting if you were paid to solve project euler problems.
14:43:04 <Tinned_Tuna> a while ago, someone offered a 5,000 prize for completing the first 30 project euler problems in APL
14:43:20 <ehird> really? that's ridiculous
14:43:22 <ehird> I would so have done that
14:43:27 <Tinned_Tuna> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)
14:43:38 <ehird> I can program a little bit in J, which is similar enough
14:43:54 <ehird> In fact, that type of language is particularly well-suited to solving Project Euler problems concisely.
14:44:01 <ehird> So that's a rather ridiculous prize.
14:44:23 <Deewiant> And the first 30 are rather simple.
14:44:44 <Deewiant> I'm not surprised, it probably took only a few hours in total :-P
14:45:15 <ehird> yeah that's like 1k/hr ;P
14:45:21 <ehird> I wish I could type the pound on this damn keyboard
14:45:35 <ehird> Just because I prioritise # doesn't mean I never want to talk about our currency :(
14:46:22 <ehird> i dunno man, i got like 200 points on "I CAN SHARE CHEEZBURGR" way back.
14:46:35 <ehird> unless comment karma doesn't count
14:46:41 <Tinned_Tuna> I normally scrape like 8 on a good comment...
14:46:54 <Tinned_Tuna> Link karma is /way/ harder to come by... :-/
14:46:56 <ehird> i usually get 1 these days :P
14:47:19 <ehird> Basically all of my link karma comes from two submissions:
14:47:23 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/71e5c/sketchpad_an_advanced_painting_program_from_1963/
14:47:23 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7nt8p/itunes_all_songs_drmfree/
14:47:29 <ehird> not that it matters.
14:47:42 <ehird> (I'd have gotten like 2x more on that latter one if I'd submitted it to /r/technology :P)
14:52:00 * ehird wonders if there's anything like IDLE but with less gtk.
14:52:24 <ehird> it's mainly the repl i'm after
14:52:51 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: you realise that's the same as running python from a shell.
14:52:55 <Tinned_Tuna> not even slightly cool: FAILED (failures=7)
14:53:09 <ehird> I just find syntax highlighting useful and all.
14:53:10 <Tinned_Tuna> but it's a read-eval-print-loop, so who cares? :-p
14:53:30 <ehird> Because that's just python in a shell.
14:53:56 <Tinned_Tuna> I normally just run tests from the shell, nothing big
14:54:11 * ehird hits Tinned_Tuna with the Holy Stick of Incremental Development
14:54:23 <ehird> consider yourself hit.
14:54:34 * Tinned_Tuna hits ehird with the holy stick of Unit Testing
14:54:48 <ehird> what the fuck kind of broke-ass stick goes clang.
14:55:10 * ehird hits Tinned_Tuna with the tinned tuna of expressive type systems such as Hindley-Milner
14:55:41 * ehird hits Tinned_Tuna with Haskell
14:56:13 <ehird> *the fact that adding Haskell's type system actually increases expressibility, e.g. by letting you do more sandboxing*
14:56:25 <ehird> ^ those are all onomatopoeic.
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14:59:05 <Tinned_Tuna> eh, I still prefer python because I can do all the fun shit with mutating variables easily, explicit loops, full object orientation, but at the same time I could do something in quite a functional style.
14:59:18 <ehird> And the same with Haskell.
14:59:22 <ehird> Haskell is a great imperative language.
14:59:42 <ehird> There is a persistent belief among Haskell newbies that monads are some sort of added layer or kludge.
14:59:53 <ehird> It's not so. It's a very natural way to do imperative, and not a messy layer on top of the purity.
15:00:17 <Tinned_Tuna> I want my messy impure stuff right there next to the pure stuff
15:00:35 <ehird> You can do that too, if you stay in IO to mark things as "this is imperative".
15:02:14 <ehird> You say that you don't want monads but I doubt that given a deeper understanding of Haskell you'd say that. The progression in a Haskell programmer's path seems to be "ok, this is simple" -> "WTF are monads? WTF are functors? What is this? Oh god..." -> "ok, well monads are ok for a bit of imperative stuff layered over the core as a neat trick to interact with the world using primarily your pure algorithms..." -> "oh, wait, monads are actually a powerful a
15:02:14 <ehird> bstraction in their own right, and not just for IO, with lots of assorted categories... hmm..." -> "hey, these same abstractions are useful all over the place... and I can use the IO monad to my advantage, helping me rather than being bothersome" -> "<3 HASKELL BFF4LYF".
15:04:05 <ehird> Unless you're pikhq; then it goes "okay, this is pretty simple. makes sense, quite elegant." -> "okay, here's how we do IO. that's easy." -> "ah, a monad. hmm. oh, I see how this works with other concepts" -> "and applicatives and functors" -> "okay, I can write some stuff in Haskell now" -> "ah, now I understand what a monad really *is*, abstractly." -> "and applicatives. and functors." -> "HASKELL IS SUPREME GOD OF THE UNIVERSE".
15:04:16 <ehird> (With that whole progression lasting 7 days, literally.)
15:04:27 <ehird> (As in the actual literal sense of literally, not the sense that means "not literally".)
15:13:15 <FireFly> You discussed Project Euler problems?
15:13:24 <FireFly> Did I mention I solved the first one with CSS? (more or less)
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15:29:19 <FireFly> http://etc.firefly.nu/css/euler-1.html <-- At least it works in O10
15:29:50 <FireFly> The actual selection is done with CSS, though it needs numbers to be stored in a certain format, to operate on (hence the JS)
15:30:55 <ehird> "0 tal; summa: 0".
15:31:05 <ehird> gecko 1.9, epiphany something, and the browser is frozen.
15:35:00 <ehird> don't worry, gecko fails at everything :)
15:35:14 <ehird> Doesn't freeze my browser now; same result, though.
15:36:08 <FireFly> chroimum doesn't even want to open the page, I just get a sad tab :\
15:36:36 <ehird> Yuck, Chromium on Linux. Horrible custom-drawn frame.
15:36:53 <ehird> Epiphany-WebKit is the future, I just wish they'd fix all the bugs in it that aren't in the Gecko version. :(
15:36:54 <FireFly> Useful for testing stuff in webkit
15:37:06 <ehird> FireFly: Use Arora for that.
15:37:14 <ehird> It's extremely barebones.
15:38:35 <FireFly> Arora crashed upon entering the page :D
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15:41:13 <ehird> Ah, redundant nickstamps.
15:41:21 <ehird> Now my XChat-GNOME experience is not horrifying.
15:44:32 <FireFly> But looking at CSS3 I'm getting more and more.. doubtful about that
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16:02:55 * ehird submits a bug to Ubuntu
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16:26:58 <AnMaster> xkcd today... have that actually ever happened?
16:28:43 <AnMaster> ehird, for less silly stuff that it is free from I guess?
16:29:19 <ehird> (Too lazy; you google.)
16:29:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what too goole for....
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16:51:11 <Ilari> What? "Pasteurised homogenised semi-skimmed milk" contains milk? Who would have guessed... :->
16:52:51 <Ilari> Cadbury Dairy Milk Chocolate Bars Contain Milk, Company Warns ... Unfortunately, that's not from the Onion.
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17:02:32 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: I've made a simple Bf interpreter in Python with the same sort of structure to yours to show how I'd do it
17:02:35 <ehird> ironing out the last bugs now...
17:13:34 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: http://codepad.org/IcgSnL5m
17:13:54 <ehird> It's slow enough that it's painful to watch mandelbrot.b go by or wait for LostKng.b to respond, but it's cleanly written and works for most stuff.
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17:57:13 <ehird> oh fuck, ubuntu are moving me to epiphany-webkit
17:57:21 <ehird> too lazy to say no :P
18:00:41 <ehird> Yay, the small font size issue.
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18:01:24 <ehird> Also, the address bar has an integrated progress bar, which is ugly and besides I need the status bar for anti-goatse purposes, so it might as well be used and be consistent with GNOME.
18:03:14 <ehird> Ooh! The fun doth not stop! If you disable the status bar and hover over a link it displays the URL in a small font in a gray-background box with a #000 border in the bottom-left, clashing with the curved window border.
18:03:32 <ehird> This ugly, jerkily-appearing-and-disappearing splodge is presumably meant to be imitating Chrome.
18:04:18 <ehird> Hey, maybe I could make a custom stylesheet to fix the font size.
18:07:32 <ehird> Hey WebKit, did you just render that with differing font antialiasing to my desktop while leaving the rest of the page correct?
18:07:38 <ehird> Yes you did! You did!
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18:17:06 <ehird> Well, it seems it Absolutely Refuses to put an Epiphany icon in the menus, no matter how many times I uninstall/install.
18:17:12 <ehird> Ya think this might be an alpha release?
18:18:36 <ehird> So, I guess the awful Firefox it is, for now! You have vanquished me, alpha 6.
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19:17:32 <Slereah> Ding dong the witch is dead!
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19:28:13 <ehird> Hey, Glade appears to be a relatively non-horrible interface for making resizable GUIs using a quite decent toolkit.
19:28:21 <ehird> Take that, every-other-toolkit-ever.
19:29:11 <ehird> (Note: UI only becomes decent when you change the widget selector to text only instead of hovering over every damn inscrutable icon.)
19:30:17 * coppro wishes he had a lightsaber
19:30:45 <ehird> I seem to be completely unable to find the way to size a widget up to get a rough default width/height as opposed to keying in pixel values, though.
19:31:05 <fizzie> Lightsabers: a more elegant UI designer, for a more civilized age.
19:31:31 <ehird> "Just fucking cut the UI up to shape, man!"
19:31:39 <ehird> "We'll start with a block of raw interaction."
19:31:46 <ehird> "But... even the guild dilutes it nowadays..."
19:31:56 <ehird> "I don't give a damn what the guild does. Get your UIsaber out."
19:36:39 <ehird> A vbox containing a menu and an hbox containing 1. a vbox containing (1. (empty) 2. (empty)) 2. a vbox containing (1. (empty) 2. (empty))
19:42:30 <ehird> what do they do? :P
19:46:38 <ehird> wish: hide gtk program scrollbars unless mouse at right side of screen where it would be or currently scrolling (e.g. with mouse, up/down etc)
19:52:51 <coppro> never encountered that with any WM myself
19:53:00 <coppro> though I'm not an esoteric WM user
19:54:06 <ehird> coppro: the iphone does it :P
19:54:24 <ehird> although obvs the scrollbar is nonfunctional, because any dragging you'd apply to it just applies to the document itself and works the same...
19:54:40 <ehird> but really, the scrollbar is such a waste 90% of the time and adds quite a lot of visual clutter
19:54:47 <ehird> it's hardly ever needed
19:54:59 <coppro> yeah, pageup/down > scrollbar
19:55:46 <ehird> the mousewheel is the best for slow movement, dragging the scrollbar swiftly to a position is best to get to a spot
19:56:07 <coppro> really long documents should have a ToC
19:56:19 <ehird> really long documents should be split up.
19:56:23 <coppro> idea: HTML encodes the ToC separately so that the browser can deisplay it independently
19:56:50 <ehird> html isn't really semantic despite claims so.
19:57:03 <fizzie> That's what the h1..h6 tags are for; the logical structure of the document.
19:57:39 <coppro> hmm... wonder if it's possible to autogenerate a ToC with CSS... probably not
19:58:51 <ehird> glade, please don't let it be so that you can't do "default height/width" yourself for widgets just like windows :(
19:58:59 <ehird> i don't want to write stupid redundant code.
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20:05:53 <zzo38> I joined this channel, but I am posting on #anagol channel too
20:07:12 <ehird> yes. irc lets you join multiple channels.
20:08:21 <zzo38> Yes, of course I know that. (But some servers has a limit)
20:09:21 <fizzie> ehird: I'm not really a GTK (or any GUI) person, but I think only Gtk windows have a "default size"; Gtk widgets have a "size request" for "smallest size that will work well", and that you can specify in Glade in the properties. (Though not by draggery.)
20:09:37 <zzo38> And of course there is a physical limit even if a limit has not been configured
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20:10:28 <ehird> fizzie: do said widgets default to that size, though?
20:10:38 <ehird> anyway, changing the requested size does not appear to be reflected in the glade window
20:10:48 <ehird> so it's a total crapshoot as to what it'll actually look like...
20:11:01 <fizzie> Well, they won't get any smaller. They can easily get bigger, though, so it's not really a "default size" like that.
20:11:40 <ehird> Anyway, the default size isn't the reasonable minimum size, so that goes out of the door.
20:11:44 <coppro> So. I now hate something new. But I can't tell you what it is.
20:11:57 <ehird> coppro: you are perfectly physically capable of doing so
20:12:10 <coppro> I MAY NOT tell you what it is.
20:12:16 <ehird> what you're saying is you're choosing not to for whatever reason, and I can't think of anything this'd achieve apart from attention whoring
20:12:32 <ehird> although the "hur hur I'm in an agoran contract" style of attention whoring does not seem to exactly have wide appeal...
20:12:57 <coppro> it's not an Agoran contract
20:13:10 <fizzie> It does seem to be shown in the Glade window here; but yes, it's just minimum-size. I'm not quite sure how you're supposed to behave if you want widgets that don't feel like growing huge.
20:13:16 <ehird> then either an RFC declared you MAY NOT, or you're misusing terminology
20:13:54 <ehird> coppro: is it not not to do with lenovo
20:14:04 <coppro> it is to do with my job
20:14:09 <fizzie> Freenode's channel limit is 21; strange number. (It's in the RFC2812 numeric the servers send; "CHANLIMIT=#&!+:21".)
20:14:11 <ehird> your job at the fbi.
20:14:32 <coppro> and an open-source library that is the new target of my ire
20:15:18 <zzo38> fizzie: Huh? I get "CHANLIMIT=#:20" on my computer.
20:15:49 <fizzie> zzo38: Oh? Well, it might be different on different freenode servers, or alternatively my bouncer does something strange to it, though that sounds unlikely.
20:16:01 <zzo38> Which freenode server are you on?
20:16:21 <ehird> You can find that out with /whois.
20:16:27 <fizzie> Never mind, I was looking at the wrong row, the IRCnet line. :p
20:16:30 <coppro> how do you get this info?
20:16:46 <ehird> It's in the connection information.
20:16:51 <ehird> You know, that clog before the MOTD.
20:17:01 <ehird> --- farmer.freenode.net hyperion-1.0.2b aAbBcCdDeEfFGhHiIjkKlLmMnNopPQrRsStTuUvVwWxXyYzZ01234569*@ bcdefFhiIklmnoPqstv
20:17:01 <ehird> --- IRCD=dancer CAPAB CHANTYPES=# EXCEPTS INVEX CHANMODES=bdeIq,k,lfJD,cgijLmnPQrRstz CHANLIMIT=#:20 PREFIX=(ov)@+ MAXLIST=bdeI:50 MODES=4 STATUSMSG=@ KNOCK NICKLEN=16 :are supported by this server
20:17:01 <ehird> --- SAFELIST CASEMAPPING=ascii CHANNELLEN=30 TOPICLEN=450 KICKLEN=450 KEYLEN=23 USERLEN=10 HOSTLEN=63 SILENCE=50 :are supported by this server
20:17:03 <fizzie> Okay, then, irc.tdc.fi has a strange channel limit. The freenode server indeed does CHANLIMIT=#:20.
20:17:04 <zzo38> The channel limit is on the 005 line sent to you upon sending username
20:18:35 <fizzie> Oh, and there is no RFC keyword "MAY NOT"; RFC 2119 -- http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2119.txt -- specifies only "MUST", "MUST NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "REQUIRED", "MAY" and "OPTIONAL".
20:19:29 <fizzie> Oh, and "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", how did I drop those.
20:19:47 <ehird> You SHALL NOT forget thos.
20:20:44 <fizzie> Indeed, I SHOULD NOT have forgotten those now either. (That is; there may exist valid reasons for forgetting, but "the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before" forgetting.)
20:21:53 <ehird> fizzie: In Agora, that causes SHOULD to be defined recursively.
20:22:07 <ehird> You have to carefully weigh up the implications of not (carefully weighing up the implications of not (...
20:22:25 <ehird> You don't have to.
20:22:29 <ehird> Before doing whatever it is.
20:22:36 <ehird> Anyway, it's quite, err, empty.
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21:02:35 <zzo38> Based on a link in Hatena Diary, I have found a link to Google Squared, search "programming language". I tried adding a column "Color". According to Google, Eiffel is black, and function programming languages are green.
21:02:45 <zzo38> s/function/functional/
21:04:13 <fizzie> Python is also black; it comes from the fact that "Hutchinson Python New Gen UST Tubeless Light Tire" is black.
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21:04:44 <fizzie> Those sources are always so funny.
21:05:37 <fizzie> To me it says functional languages are blue; but green's also on the list of values. (Because some "multi-functional headset" cables are blue, but on the other hand a Cisco router has a green blinking LED when the software is "functional".)
21:07:07 <zzo38> Also, the pictures are not necessarily right either. I searched "chess variant", it came up with a list of chess variants but many of the pictures correspond to something else with the same name that has nothing to do with chess.
21:08:13 <fizzie> "Price" is a good column; Visual Basic costs $65.98; Fortran £512.00; Python $107.20; Eiffel just $2.00; you can get Forth for $9.99; Haskell's $29.95; and functional programming languages are a whopping USD $795.00.
21:08:31 <fizzie> Didn't know Python costs over a hundred bucks.
21:09:49 <zzo38> I get Forth for $0.00 listed
21:11:08 <zzo38> I also tried searching "esolang"
21:11:35 <zzo38> It comes up with a proper list, but some of the descriptions are only part of a list of esolangs
21:11:46 <Deewiant> Haskell is blue and Funge is red
21:12:12 <zzo38> And it adds three columns "C Equivalent" "Meaning" "Appeared In" none of which have any values.
21:13:12 <zzo38> It has something which seems useful, "Usual File Extensions" but there is no values.
21:14:39 <fizzie> What's interesting is: green is red, white is black, silver is yellow. (At least that's what I get when I build a Square of colors and add a "color" column.)
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21:15:00 <fizzie> Also, violet is rated PG-13; purple and yellow are rated B; and green is rated at 8.3.
21:15:11 <fizzie> (Ranking, Rating and Configuration were the default columns.)
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21:15:39 <fizzie> Ranking has no values, and configuration for green is "Choosing the Right Solution", while the config for silver is "6-cyl".
21:15:57 <zzo38> I get "Author", "Media Type", and "Isbn" as default columns.
21:16:16 <fizzie> (Colors for other colors were #aabbcc RGB values which looked sensible.)
21:16:39 <Deewiant> I get yellow = yellow green, silver = white, white = black, blue = #0000ff
21:16:55 <Deewiant> For red, green, and black it can't find colours
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21:17:12 <Deewiant> For black it found the colour "Tesco H30 Colour Ink" but no color
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21:17:53 <fizzie> I got RGB values for yellow (#FFFF00), violet (#EE82EE), purple (#800080), brown (#A52A2A), magenta (#FF00FF) and lavender (#E6E6FA).
21:18:31 <fizzie> Though the image for "White" was the U.S. Department of Energy logo.
21:18:58 <Deewiant> Purple = "Pink/", Brown = "Black,"
21:19:09 <Deewiant> Magenta and lavender get the RGB here as well.
21:19:30 <Deewiant> And it seems the question of indigo is settled: Indigo = Blue
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21:20:39 <zzo38> At least "quark" gives correct descriptions when I add the correct items
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21:22:04 <fizzie> Item Name: Quark. Image: [picture of the Quark character from Star Trek]. Description: "Quark Signs Distribution Agreement with DistributorX Inc.". And finally: Color: "yes".
21:22:23 <zzo38> Ah. So, it is a color film, then?
21:22:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's from Wikipedia. :p
21:22:34 <Deewiant> Protons have colour grey but color BLACK
21:22:45 <fizzie> "color charge for Up quark"
21:23:09 <zzo38> strange/charm/top/bottom quarks language are English but up and down quarks there is no value for colors
21:23:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sounds like a poem.
21:23:38 <zzo38> Ya, now make up a poem from this
21:23:42 <Deewiant> For "violets" it gives color white and colour "yellowish"
21:24:04 <fizzie> That could be an yellowish off-white color.
21:24:56 <Deewiant> Roses are black, violets are yellowish, ...
21:26:21 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sugar is Annona, and so are you.
21:26:55 <fizzie> (Genus: Annona was the only column with a value in the "add these ten suggestions" columns for a single-row "sugar" square.)
21:26:55 <Deewiant> I was thinking of something that'd rhyme with "yellowish"
21:26:57 <zzo38> Well, one thing works, when I search "internet protocol", manually type in the names of the protocols, and add a "port number" column, it gives the correct answers. But "color" for HTTP gives a URL, and "Command" for "HTTP" is "yes"
21:27:41 <Deewiant> Sugar is salty, and so are fish?
21:28:52 <zzo38> I typed in the following protocols: HTTP, Gopher, FTP, Telnet, SMTP, WHOIS, POP3, SSH, IRC. The only column which is correct is the "port number" column. The other columns act crazy.
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21:31:58 <Sgeo> Is there a better way to express the idea of going down to the power of two right below you then:
21:32:10 <Sgeo> 2 ^ (floor(log2(x))
21:37:08 <fizzie> You could use some sort of supremum notation over the set of all powers of two that are less than (or equal, if you want) x, but I'm not sure that's very obviouser. Alternatively, you could use, you know, language.
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01:22:20 <Sgeo_> Should I learn emacs, or vi?
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01:29:51 <Ilari> I regard Vi as tolerable for some simple editing (but nano tends to be better for that), but Vim is completely unusuable... :-)
01:32:53 <Gregor> You emacs lunatics just haven't Seen the Light.
01:34:21 <Sgeo_> I think I have some affection for emacs stemming from when I brought a book on Emacs, since I thought it was connected to macs
01:34:36 <Sgeo_> (I also did the same thing with CORBA, and that's the story of why I know a bit of COBOL)
01:37:04 <Ilari> I have tried to use Vim. It was total crap (Vi was only crap, but not total crap).
01:39:52 <Sgeo_> Huh. The user nobody is running ImapProxy on my school's linux system
01:40:22 <Gregor> The nobody user is used for things that shouldn't have access to anything in particular.
01:40:48 * Sgeo_ doesn't know what ImapProxy is, but is there anything interesting implied by the fact that it's running?
01:44:30 <Sgeo_> I think one of the teachers is stalking the Hockey club?
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01:47:57 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/b99qje4snvmmgqaapnpm6g
01:48:28 <Sgeo_> Even to my unaccustomed-to-bash eyes, that looks ugly
01:57:14 <Gregor> Some indentation would help.
02:01:27 <Sgeo_> Is that bash file made to stalk hockey?
02:03:59 <Gregor> That being said, it's a HUGE waste of CPU.
02:05:28 <pikhq> Gregor: I've seen the light that is Vim. M-x vimperator was kinda lame.
02:11:02 <Sgeo_> Is C# a good language to learn?
02:12:13 <pikhq> No; the only interesting thing in C# is monads. And if you're really wanting to learn those, learn you some Haskell.
02:13:06 <Sgeo_> What language is the best to learn for a career in programming?
02:13:30 <pikhq> Don't learn languages.
02:13:43 <pikhq> Make it so you could reasonably learn a language in a couple of weeks.
02:14:15 <Sgeo_> I think I'm at that point, but I'm not sure
02:14:56 <Sgeo_> (Well, at least for languages that follow whatever thing C is, as in, not functional or whatever)
02:15:33 <pikhq> ... So, you know imperative OO languages.
02:15:45 <pikhq> Learn some functional languages.
02:16:27 <Gregor> C is the solution to all problems.
02:16:51 <pikhq> Gregor: Says the D programmer.
02:16:56 <Sgeo_> I knew enough Haskell at once point to make a bad pun
02:16:59 <Gregor> I haven't programmed in D in months :P
02:19:30 <pikhq> Gregor: Fine, fine.
02:19:37 <pikhq> Gregor: Says the guy responsible for Plof.
02:30:10 <Sgeo_> ...why is root running GNOME?
02:30:18 <Sgeo_> root :0 - 08Jul09 ?xdm? 20:40m 0.22s /usr/bin/gnome-session
02:43:03 <Sgeo_> I sent a mail to that stalkery professor...
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03:23:51 <bsmntbombdood_> i finally figured out that the packing density of circles arranged hexagonally is pi * sqrt(3)/6
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05:41:38 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_0F/screen0.png
05:42:17 <oerjan> indeed, it doesn't look much like a pipe
05:43:07 <zzo38> It isn't supposed to be a pipe. The "THIS IS NOT A PIPE" is based on a art by Magritte
05:43:18 <zzo38> (but they wrote it in French, and it actually had pictures of pipes)
05:43:28 <zzo38> But other than that it is unrelated
05:44:59 <zzo38> http://www.michaelarnoldart.com/Magritte-The_Two_Mysteries-1966-1.jpg
05:55:46 <zzo38> But, is the first picture, good, nevertheless? Did you like it? And, what about Magritte's picture? Do you like that one too?
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06:08:20 <zzo38> Two little sticks They're made out of wood And they help you To pick up your lunch Your lunch And if you practice Then you'd get good And you'll tind you can pick up A bunch to munch Eat noodles with chopsticks Eat dumplings with chopsticks Eat sushi with chopsticks That's fish! Don't eat soup with your chopsticks That's no good with chopsticks And jello with slide off Your dish I eat with chopsticks Can you eat with chopsticks Doctor told us
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14:21:10 <ehird> 13:15:00 <fizzie> Also, violet is rated PG-13; purple and yellow are rated B; and green is rated at 8.3.
14:23:13 <ehird> 17:32:53 <Gregor> You emacs lunatics just haven't Seen the Light.
14:23:14 <ehird> 17:33:02 <Gregor> The Light that is vim
14:23:31 <ehird> You're both on crack, but vi has a coherent philosophy, so I declare that Gregor is Victor.
14:23:59 <oerjan> Victor Frankenstein, but still
14:24:05 <ehird> 18:05:28 <pikhq> Gregor: I've seen the light that is Vim. M-x vimperator was kinda lame.
14:24:07 <ehird> You mean M-x viper.
14:24:10 <ehird> Vimperator is Firefox.
14:24:27 <ehird> Well, you might be joking.
14:24:34 <ehird> After all, pikhq liking vim?
14:24:44 <ehird> 18:13:06 <Sgeo_> What language is the best to learn for a career in programming?
14:24:56 <ehird> You need a healthy dose of "I hate my life and want it to be hell".
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14:44:21 <ehird> "I will give 99€ to anyone completing C99 support in TinyCC."
14:44:28 <ehird> what a stupid thing to say
14:44:47 <ehird> does this guy have any idea how much programmers working on a damn compiler would usually be paid?
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15:24:19 <ehird> that's my password
15:24:20 <ehird> let me authenticate
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15:35:12 <ehird> Wow, Gnome 2.28 came out.
15:35:15 <ehird> How did that happen?
15:36:15 <ehird> Apparently they conspired with the Ubuntu alpha team too, because I already have it.
15:36:47 <ehird> Advantage of using the alpha: exciting bug fix updates EVERY DAY!
15:37:24 <ehird> (Disadvantage: Nothing quite works right.)
15:38:17 <ehird> "# GNOME menus and buttons have been standardised across all applications to not display icons by default. Menu items with dynamic objects, including applications, files or bookmarks, and devices are the exception and can display an icon. This change will standardise the look and feel of menus and present a cleaner interface to users.'"
15:38:26 <ehird> Seems they reverted it in Ubuntu because I still have 'em.
15:38:30 <ehird> Wonder where the setting is.
15:39:27 <ehird> /desktop/gnome/interface/menus_have_icons
15:39:47 <ehird> Oh, it's also in Appearance. Heh.
15:39:58 <ehird> Found when Googling:
15:40:02 <ehird> [[For some reason, the folks at GNOME (the “usability” team) decided to turn off icons in menus.]]
15:40:08 <ehird> He says "usability" throughout the post.
15:40:20 <ehird> "Now these people, these are FAKE usability experts."
15:40:28 <ehird> The computer needs to restart to finish installing updates. Please save your work before continuing.
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15:40:39 <Tinned_Tuna> I am so glad I got to opt out of the user interface modules
15:40:51 <Tinned_Tuna> I have my command line, and that's how everyone should use my software.
15:41:22 <Tinned_Tuna> having a GUI on my computer for pidgin, xchat, firefox, eclipse is nice
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15:43:12 <ehird> (It probably just inherited my pre-upgrade settings, actually.)
15:43:29 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: did you see the codepad I linked you yesterday, btw?
15:44:16 <Tinned_Tuna> I thought the ol' dictionary of functions trick wouldn't really work too well, but if you abstract the tape away like you did, it makes a whole load of sense
15:44:49 <ehird> Tinned_Tuna: caveat: you have to assign self.instructions in __init__, since self.tape is
15:45:13 <ehird> raise BFSyntaxError('Unmatched [.')
15:45:13 <ehird> raise BFSyntaxError('Unmatched ].')
15:45:17 <ehird> those two errors are backwards
15:45:20 <ehird> pretend they're flipped :P
15:47:28 <ehird> it's probably cliche to say "a lot of people say that".
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15:48:48 <ehird> Note to self: `killall gnome-panel` hides the xchat-gnome icon.
15:49:03 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you know you said removing the icons from the application menus would be bad?
15:49:09 <ehird> it only affects program menus
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17:05:29 <ehird> Well, seems like extensions are gone for good now in Epiphany
17:05:39 <ehird> They were all crap, though.
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17:37:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> Well, seems like extensions are gone for good now in Epiphany <-- hm?
17:37:40 <AnMaster> you mean stuff like firefox add-ons?
17:38:00 <ehird> (Add-Ons encompass extensions and themes in Firefox, iirc.)
17:38:18 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. And plugins would be stuff like java and flash
17:38:24 <ehird> (Indeed: Tabs are "extensions", "Themes", "Languages", "Plugins")
17:38:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Ah. Those are still in, obviously.
17:38:59 <AnMaster> and yes plugins are in "add-ons" nowdays, they weren't some versions ago
17:39:33 <ehird> Epiphany doesn't have any themes because themes are stupid, why have them just in a browser? your desktop environment already has themes, and no languages because they're all included
17:39:45 <ehird> So "add-ons" could only refer to extensions or plugins and now extensions are gone.
17:39:59 <ehird> Also, wow Evolution really sucks.
17:40:11 <ehird> It's so enterprisey and it doesn't even work.
17:40:56 <ehird> (I use the Creationism email client; it's just an empty window.)
17:41:07 <ehird> (Except for one button, "connect".)
17:41:27 <ehird> (When you click it, a dialog pops up saying "Magic happening..." and an imprecise batting-backwards-and-forth progress bar.)
17:41:32 <ehird> (It never disappears.)
17:41:38 <AnMaster> ehird, reason for firefox themes is probably that the default look isn't the native look. And quite crappy as well
17:42:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Firefox's majority market is on Windows, where it looks fine.
17:42:29 <ehird> (Although that weird back/forth eye thing is a bit odd.)
17:42:53 <ehird> Themes are just because idiots are very demanding of silliness like that... especially if one is a developer. :P
17:42:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> (Although that weird back/forth eye thing is a bit odd.) <-- huh?
17:43:12 <ehird> AnMaster: you haven't seen it?
17:43:22 <ehird> http://z.about.com/d/browsers/1/0/k/B/-/-/openffbrowser.jpg
17:43:24 <AnMaster> I have no idea what you are referring to
17:43:29 <ehird> See the backwards/forwards buttons.
17:43:53 <AnMaster> since I hate firefox default look
17:43:54 <ehird> It looks sort of like O_o, which I guess is why people call it the eye.
17:44:16 <ehird> Ubuntu's Firefox just makes it use the default buttons in regular style, which is... boringly sane?
17:44:28 <ehird> But boring there is probably a good thing.
17:44:45 <AnMaster> ehird, free interpretation of that GUI feature: this means they are conservative, prefer going back rather than making progress
17:44:59 <ehird> Meanwhile, I have found the one webcomic worse than User Friendly.
17:45:07 <AnMaster> <ehird> Ubuntu's Firefox just makes it use the default buttons in regular style, which is... boringly sane? <-- ubuntu's firefox isn't the last one iirc
17:45:14 <ehird> Free Software Magazine's "The Bizarre Cathedral". Representative example: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/files/www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/nodes/3210/strip.jpg
17:45:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it is in karmic alpha6.
17:45:28 <ehird> Spoiler: Still sucks
17:46:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> Free Software Magazine's "The Bizarre Cathedral". Representative example: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/files/www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/nodes/3210/strip.jpg <-- quite a horrible joke
17:46:17 <AnMaster> if one could even call it joke
17:46:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's been going since 2004 and as near as I can tell they're all that bad
17:46:50 <ehird> the characters always have exactly the same pixels, to boot
17:47:03 <ehird> and most of them just have the characters and nothing else
17:48:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> the characters always have exactly the same pixels, to boot <-- Ryan North style?
17:48:08 <ehird> Sorry, I spoke wrongly; apparently "(C) Copyright by its author, 2004-2008" is for the whole FSM.
17:48:13 <ehird> This thing has only been sucking since 2008.
17:48:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no, different amounts and arrangements
17:48:28 <ehird> also, those comics have a name, you know
17:49:01 <ehird> "Ryan North style" vs "Dinosaur Comics style"
17:49:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well he write that comic
17:50:08 <AnMaster> so I fail to see what is wrong with my phrasing of it
17:50:26 <ehird> because it's not inherent to ryan north to use that style?
17:50:34 <ehird> if he made another comic I doubt it would be the same
17:51:02 <AnMaster> question then is: does he make another one?
17:52:04 <ehird> doesn't matter, the style is dinosaur comics', not ryan north's, it's that one specific project
17:52:43 <AnMaster> you seemed to understand what I meant anyway, thus the communication worked
17:53:01 <ehird> loLi t00tally agree d00d
17:53:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> This thing has only been sucking since 2008. <-- so it was good before that?
17:53:26 <ehird> that sentence does not imply that at all.
17:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, true, that is why I was asking
17:54:13 <ehird> the line before it implies I was mistaken about 2004, then I mention 2008 being when it started sucking, after mentioning earlier that it's a really bad comic
17:54:13 <AnMaster> the alternative would be it hasn't been running at all before 2008
17:54:19 <ehird> that is the correct option.
17:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you think about that PhD comic btw?
17:55:28 <AnMaster> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php but look at older ones for better jokes
17:55:39 <ehird> i think fizzie linked one of those once.
17:55:39 <AnMaster> there is even a "highlights" section under "about"
17:55:54 <ehird> love that mystery meat navigation there
17:55:57 <AnMaster> ehird, quite possible. The one about thesis title?
17:56:04 <ehird> AnMaster: ehm, I think so
17:56:08 <fizzie> Yes, I think I linked that one.
17:56:26 <fizzie> *foop* You summoned me here.
17:56:36 <ehird> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie
17:56:44 <ehird> HELLO line of fizzie clones how ARE you
17:56:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yep sounds right. Some of those are quite good. But IME the jokes get a bit repetitive after a while
17:56:58 <ehird> Why did the chicken cross the road?
17:57:03 <ehird> To get to the other side. To get to the other side. To get to the other side. To get to the other side.
17:57:11 <fizzie> Hello. Hi. Hello. Elloh. Hola. Hi. We're just fine.
17:57:55 <ehird> ^ul ((fizzie )S:^):^
17:57:56 <fungot> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fi ...too much output!
17:58:06 <ehird> are there infinite yous are only the one mentioned in my program + the ones that got output?
17:58:11 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't work when a bot does it
17:58:20 <AnMaster> especially not one he coded himsef
17:58:21 <ehird> sure it does, it's just a question how much.
17:59:20 <fizzie> Sorry, I had to kill an infinite number of clones to get the keyboard. Yes, there were many.
17:59:39 <ehird> fizzie: can I hire you as a hitman?
17:59:44 <ehird> I've got some monkeys wasting time
17:59:48 <ehird> and I'd like to sell the typewriters
18:00:06 <fizzie> I think the PETA might complain.
18:00:25 <ehird> ^ul ((fizzie )S:^):^
18:00:25 <fungot> fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fizzie fi ...too much output!
18:00:39 <ehird> whichever one of you doesn't give a shit about animals and likes the number 29346238472348234234, come to the keyboard
18:01:28 <fizzie> Sorry, we all decided to go get some snacks. It may take a while for us to find enough. -Z
18:01:54 <ehird> fizzie: eat the monkeys!
18:02:30 <fizzie> "Eat the monkey and win", isn't that the popular banner ad. (Really gone now.)
18:04:32 <AnMaster> <fizzie> "Eat the monkey and win", isn't that the popular banner ad. (Really gone now.) <-- HUH?
18:05:59 <ehird> "Atheists Can't Prove That Richard Dawkins Exists." --title of a post on a blog that I can't ascertain whether is a parody or not
18:10:18 <ehird> AnMaster: link me to that recent linux root exploit?
18:10:54 <AnMaster> I forgot what the last one was about at all
18:10:55 <ehird> don't remember, but very recent
18:11:00 <ehird> and going back many versions
18:16:48 <AnMaster> something about a parameter not being checked properly
18:17:03 <AnMaster> and with sendpage or sendfile or something
18:33:32 <Ilari> the network stack NULL pointer call?
18:36:38 <ehird> presumably it's been patched, though
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18:37:06 <ehird> the first one Sgeo
18:37:09 <ehird> the third one Sgeo
18:37:21 <ehird> there, queue of answers to the inevitable questions added to
18:38:09 <Sgeo> Is C++ a good language? Should I use Linux instead of Windows?
18:38:21 <ehird> i never specified the order of the additions.
18:38:56 <Ilari> ehird: Yeah. Setting mmap limit to nonzero and desuiding the pulseaudio wrapper should make exploiting it harder (and if you have SELinux, remove those mmap_zero's)...
18:39:30 <ehird> I'll just use Ubuntu's presumably-patched kernel and not install stupid software. :P
18:41:13 <Ilari> Wonder why there isn't boolean in standard SELinux policy to globally remove all mmap_zero permissions...
18:41:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, desuiding pulseaudio wrapper? hm? why does it need suid to begin with
18:41:54 <ehird> it can't be with a patched kernel, presumably
18:42:02 <ehird> also, uh, to talk to alsa or whatever low-level?
18:42:35 <AnMaster> ehird, hm... yet normal apps can talk to pulseaudio just fine
18:43:08 <ehird> to the root-running pulseaudio daemon.
18:43:33 <AnMaster> it shouldn't be running as root, rather as some special puseaudio user
18:44:05 <ehird> ALSA dictates, presumably.
18:44:11 <Ilari> I think that recent kernels prevent exploiting Pulseaudio for mapping the NULL page.
18:45:20 <AnMaster> Ilari, pulseaudio should fix whatever bug allows such exploiting
18:45:39 <fizzie> ALSA lets normal users speak sound just fine; my guess would be something related to real-time scheduling, if they need such tricks, latency-wide.
18:45:52 <Ilari> I think the root permissions are related to scheduling or so...
18:45:58 <Sgeo> If I ps aux, find someone running a strangely named bash script, and investigate, is that creepy?
18:46:10 <ehird> Sgeo: you already told us about this
18:46:15 <ehird> why do you constantly repeat things
18:46:19 <ehird> fizzie: yes, it's given real-time scheduling permission
18:46:24 <AnMaster> how is it creepy to investigate
18:46:29 <Sgeo> I told you about it, but I didn't ask if it's creepy
18:46:39 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/xZnbZmru
18:46:46 <ehird> which is a good move, because it turns out you should probably know whether something's creepy or not.
18:46:57 <ehird> I wonder if Sgeo runs around IRL asking such questions
18:47:26 <ehird> Sgeo: that person shouldn't be teaching that glass if they recommend using up all the cpu like that
18:48:03 <fizzie> They should teach Glass more.
18:48:22 <ehird> glass is way too enterprisey!
18:48:30 <AnMaster> yeah especially the Swedish meaning of glass
18:48:40 <ehird> you have to put everything in objects, like Java!
18:48:44 <ehird> AnMaster: esolang fail.
18:48:50 <AnMaster> possibly bacon flavoured and delivered by unicorns
18:49:16 <ehird> <AnMaster> I'm AWARE of the common internet vernacular, and I can PROVE it!
18:49:25 <Gregor> Mmmm, unicorn-flavored bacon.
18:49:34 <ehird> (Sidenote: Vernacular. Great word or greatest word?)
18:49:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> <AnMaster> I'm AWARE of the common internet vernacular, and I can PROVE it!
18:49:45 <ehird> <AnMaster> possibly bacon flavoured and delivered by unicorns
18:50:00 <ehird> you're not very good at it
18:50:19 <AnMaster> ehird, no I wasn't aware of that being any sort of meme or whatever. Just that you seem to 1) love bacon 2) love unicorns and ponies
18:50:51 <ehird> yes, AnMaster; I legitimately love unicorns and ponies.
18:51:14 <Sgeo> Well, what I did is not against the acceptable use policy, unless "private files" covers everything in ~
18:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, as opposed to illegitimately loving them?
18:51:36 <ehird> AnMaster: can't resist that underage unicorn horn.
18:52:04 <ehird> Sgeo: doesn't really matter, poking around and getting into shit when it's not (a) fun or (b) necessary is probably inadvisable.
18:52:42 <ehird> that's called a deer.
18:53:01 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on where they are mounted
18:56:56 <Gregor> Usually out in the forest.
18:57:00 <Gregor> That's where all the *corns get it on.
18:57:07 <ehird> I was going to mention that, dammit.
18:57:22 <ehird> But nooooo, I went, "ELLIOTT, FOR ONCE BE MATURE AND DON'T TURN THE TOPIC TO DEER SEX".
18:57:58 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric: A channel for and about deer sex. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:58:21 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: for deer sex, by deer sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:58:29 <ehird> We are all the abstract concept of deer sex.
18:58:53 -!- AnMaster has set topic: #esoteric: for dear sex, by dear sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:59:59 <AnMaster> at least it should represent the views on that stuff quite well in here.
19:00:22 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: for unicorn sex, by deer sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:00:34 -!- AnMaster has set topic: #esoteric: for unicorn sex, by pony sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:00:47 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric: pony up for sex, unicorn sex | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
19:01:07 <ehird> Legalise unicorn prostitution!
19:01:23 <ehird> I fully support ponies having sex with unicorns, if that's what they're up for.
19:01:34 <ehird> Great value: two jokes for the price of one.
19:03:38 * Sgeo starts installing Haskell stuff
19:03:46 <ehird> Sgeo: install the haskell platform.
19:04:11 <ehird> also, use emacs to edit with the latest haskell-mode with haskell-indentation.
19:04:15 <Sgeo> Also installing Leksah and WinHugs (does WinHugs use the Haskell platform?)
19:04:17 <ehird> unless you like gnawing your hair out
19:04:24 <ehird> winhugs uses hugs instead of ghci
19:04:29 <ehird> different implementations
19:04:52 <Sgeo> Right, but does hugs implement all the stuff that the platform provides to haskell programs?
19:05:03 <ehird> The Platform is just GHC + some libraries.
19:05:10 <ehird> Hugs fails. It's old and doesn't support many of the things GHC does.
19:05:12 <pikhq> Hugs is freaking old.
19:05:20 <pikhq> It's like 3 years out of date.
19:05:24 <ehird> As Gregor can attest, even Hugs' author tells people to use GHC.
19:05:41 <AnMaster> ehird, officially on the website?
19:05:48 <ehird> No, when teaching a course.
19:05:53 <Gregor> He's a professor at PSU.
19:06:09 <Sgeo> Does Leksah provide a pretty interface to GHCi, or otherwise have a shell environment?
19:06:23 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what is wrong with plain ghci?
19:06:27 <ehird> Leksah can run GHCi expressions, but it's kind of rubbish.
19:06:28 <pikhq> Leksah? I'm sure it does. Leksah is actually maintained. ;)
19:06:33 <ehird> AnMaster: he's a stupid windows user who doesn't use the CLI :P
19:06:41 <ehird> (Kind of rubbish at running GHCi stuff, that is.)
19:06:52 <Asztal> There's a WinGhci. (But it's annoying.)
19:06:56 <ehird> Asztal: also broken
19:07:03 <ehird> it freezes on startup if you resize the windows
19:07:24 <Sgeo> WTF does resizing a window have to do with whehter it freezes or not?
19:07:33 <Sgeo> Unless it's a game
19:07:37 <ehird> because unmaximizing it stores the window position in the registry
19:07:41 <ehird> and the code that reads it if it's there must break
19:07:42 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Unless it's a game <-- wth?
19:07:45 <Asztal> ehird: I don't see that here. I just see the wab tab complete doesn't work, and Ctrl-C creates a modal dialog box instead of just... stopping
19:07:59 <AnMaster> does being a game has to do with it
19:08:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, well, I would expect that a poorly designed game engine might not respond well to having to change where it's drawing to
19:08:27 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I can't imagine what sort of game would do that
19:09:08 <Sgeo> I don't know much about graphics, so..
19:09:12 <AnMaster> ehird, stop ruining my anti-windos attack by cutting it short
19:09:35 <ehird> i say windows one because every game is on windows.
19:09:52 <ehird> yes, the supertux and tux racer developers have probably gone to great lengths ensuring that it works at 8x42 resolution.
19:10:07 <ehird> AnMaster: so are you seriously suggesting a gamer could use linux as their only OS.
19:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, last I heard portal worked great in wine for example
19:10:31 <AnMaster> I don't know enough to be sure
19:10:38 <ehird> a whole one recent game that linux supports, then
19:10:40 <ehird> a short one, to boot
19:10:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and that "last I heard" was about 2 months after it was released
19:11:46 * Sgeo finally figures out why Leksah is called Leksah
19:12:10 <Sgeo> Reverse the letters
19:12:24 <ehird> the issue is that "Leksah" sounds crap
19:12:26 <AnMaster> I was trying to go for lolcats for "lexer"
19:13:13 <ehird> argh, rearranging audacity toolbars is a bitch
19:13:30 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? You are doing sound editing?
19:14:21 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2TlM0zDLh0 sounds sort of like a beat, so I wanted to speed it up, make it sound more like a beat and then put some silly synth notes on it to be silly, but audacity is making me rather do something more productive like, say, shoot myself
19:14:50 <ehird> AnMaster: drag all the toolbars out, add the main play/record/etc buttons, put the L/R volume meters next to it, then try to add the volume+device selection control as a new toolbar below it
19:15:12 <AnMaster> ehird, hm what is wrong with standard layout
19:15:26 <ehird> it's an eyesore, plus they aren't arranged in any coherent fashion
19:15:26 <Sgeo> I think I broke Leksah by being lazy
19:15:31 <ehird> just all over the place
19:15:48 <AnMaster> ehird, worse or better than gimp?
19:16:06 <ehird> gimp only works well if it's the only thing on your screen, but recent versions have some sort of interaction design
19:16:22 <ehird> the tool options kinda suck and the menu too but the rest is semi-ok
19:18:21 <ehird> it's basically like "UI design", except you start from "how do we accomplish this final task, and what's the most steamlined, discoverable way of doing it?" instead of "how can we arrange the buttons so they're easier to get to?"
19:18:37 <ehird> (i.e., less retarded. well, the latter are still useful, but only if you have a former.)
19:19:08 <Sgeo> Where does Leksah store its data?
19:19:22 <AnMaster> thanks for just reminding me why I hate designing GUIs
19:19:37 <ehird> AnMaster: because you're a programmer, and don't care about non-programmer users?
19:19:46 <ehird> but yeah, programmers are bad at designing UIs, no shit, who doesn't know that?
19:19:46 <AnMaster> Sgeo, duh, just use ghci in either cmd.exe or urxvt
19:19:52 <ehird> leksah is not a ghci.
19:20:02 <ehird> saying "wincrap" makes you sound like an imbecilic 10 year old.
19:20:11 <ehird> AnMaster: leksah is an advanced editor
19:20:18 <ehird> or, if you will, "non-visual studio IDE"
19:20:35 <ehird> it happens to have a keybinding meaning "send the current line to ghci, and give the response".
19:20:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you were talking about evaluating GHCi expressions in it though
19:21:01 <ehird> also, urxvt doesn't exist for windows.
19:21:04 <ehird> only rxvt does, and only with cygwin.
19:21:15 <ehird> msys = fork of cygwin.
19:21:21 <ehird> and it uses rxvt, not urxvt.
19:21:29 <ehird> msys is an even shittier fork of cygwin than cygwin
19:21:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and maybe I misremebered the u then
19:21:38 <ehird> it's both old, and you have to use a patched gcc 2 to compile apps for it
19:21:46 <AnMaster> and well you could compile urxvt for cygwin if you wanted to I bet
19:21:53 <ehird> the rxvt-for-Windows is a port.
19:21:58 <ehird> because rxvt requires X, you see
19:22:16 <ehird> yes, and if you recommend it you have clearly never used a windows environment and then tried it
19:22:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say I recommended it
19:22:29 <ehird> (being forced to use windows and installing cygwin as an escape hatch doesn't count.)
19:22:39 <AnMaster> being due to not recommending windows to begin with
19:22:39 <ehird> AnMaster: <AnMaster> Sgeo, duh, just use ghci in either cmd.exe or urxvt
19:22:42 <ehird> looks like you did
19:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, since he said he was using windows anyway
19:23:12 <Sgeo> Oh come on, I can't add fonts to cmd windows?
19:23:22 <ehird> edit the registry, or stop being a fag and use Consolas. :P
19:23:51 <AnMaster> ...or stop being a pipe and use linux?
19:24:10 <ehird> ... just ... the ... shut up.
19:24:18 <Sgeo> "This package is only intended for licensed users of Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 or 2008."
19:24:25 <AnMaster> "just the shut up" <-- why just it?
19:24:34 <ehird> AnMaster: just the shut up why just it?
19:24:35 <Sgeo> Consolas Font Pack
19:24:37 <ehird> I can ignore punctuation too.
19:24:44 <ehird> Sgeo: so fucking what.
19:24:51 <ehird> you can get it with powerpoint too
19:24:57 <ehird> some free download anyway
19:26:17 <Sgeo> Ugh, I have to install cygwin to use Leksah?
19:26:39 <ehird> Sgeo: linux also works</AnMaster>
19:27:16 <ehird> implicit start tags. just like the valid omitting of </p>
19:27:50 <ehird> implicit start tags aren't, but end tags are.
19:28:09 <AnMaster> and that is invalid omitting of end tag. Not invalid omitting of start tag
19:28:27 <Sgeo> .....Leksah just opened
19:28:30 <ehird> really, well the w3c is widely respected and you're some malcontent on IRC, so I think I'll ignore your blathering and go with what the actual HTML standard says.
19:29:25 <ehird> that doesn't give you the right to decide that i'm talking in xml, also fuck off, I don't give a shit, it's talking on IRC, not a vali-fucking-dator
19:29:26 <FireFly> HTML is an extension of SGML, isn't it?
19:30:42 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:31:44 * Sgeo will just use GHCi
19:34:52 <ehird> Sgeo: and emacs + haskell-mode + haskell-indentation. nothing else can indent haskell with accuracy
19:35:11 <Sgeo> That would require me to learn emacs :/
19:35:44 <ehird> C-x C-s saves, C-x C-f opens a file, C-x C-c quits, M-x regex-replace or replace-regex, I forget, does what it says on the tin
19:39:31 <Sgeo> Ugh, I can't really try out these examples with GHCi
19:39:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
19:39:58 <ehird> So put them in a file and run them.
19:40:13 -!- kar8nga has joined.
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19:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, you tried windows 7 right?
19:46:23 <AnMaster> a question about it: is it ready to use once you logged in, or does it take minutes after like vista does?
19:46:44 <ehird> immediately, although I fully expect Vista is the same. windows systems decay, presumably because the software tends to fuck things up.
19:47:07 <ehird> out of the box, windows isn't bad... it's just that almost all commercial software fucks it up, and it's hard to totally uninstall anything
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19:47:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well, given that vista was newly installed on my thinkpad when I got it and it then took half a minute from desktop showed up until it was ready to use
19:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, that vista wasn't stock.
19:48:08 <ehird> lenovo had their way with it, for one adding ThinkVantage - you have a button for it on your keyboard - and god knows what else they decided to give you
19:48:27 <ehird> 7 is a lot more lightweight than vista, though
19:48:38 <AnMaster> linux take maybe 1 or 2 seconds after desktop show up until it is ready to use. so maybe 5 seconds after pressing enter after entering password? something like that
19:48:42 <ehird> if you have a semi-recent graphics card (= enough to run Aero) it's very snappy
19:48:51 <ehird> snappier than XP, I'd say
19:49:14 <AnMaster> 7 being snappier or vista being snappier?
19:51:31 <ehird> i'll probably dual-boot ubuntu and 7 on my notebook
19:51:44 <ehird> although i'm not sure what disk space to give 7 with the probable anemic disk space of 160GB
19:53:36 <ehird> i don't feel like battling with WINE.
19:53:58 <ehird> i'm sorry, what did you just say? slowbox?
19:54:12 <AnMaster> ehird, not really with hardware support for it
19:54:20 <ehird> if you're running a word processor.
19:54:30 <AnMaster> quite acceptable, of course not like 100% native speed, good enough for most non-3D apps
19:54:42 <ehird> non-3d apps for windows are basically useless unless you're doing CAD or something.
19:54:59 <ehird> but not realtime 3d
19:55:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> linux has it all. <-- yeah, thus no need for windows ;P
19:55:48 <ehird> hmm, seems like the cheapest price for a new 160 GB X25-M is 290 pounds
19:56:03 <ehird> $462 sure is a sweeter price than the >$700 they cost over here (and over there) last generation.
19:56:10 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, I can ignore words like "price" too.
19:56:14 <ehird> this kb has no pound key in linux
19:56:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it was too tempting to avoid
19:58:14 <ehird> yes, I know of that
19:58:15 <ehird> it doesn't work here
19:58:25 <ehird> and that's what I'd like to use
19:59:09 <AnMaster> ehird, try Swedish kb layout, it works then
19:59:15 <Asztal> but how much does it weigh when it's full?
19:59:40 <AnMaster> Asztal, almost another 290 pound I guess
19:59:48 <ehird> Asztal: well let's see
20:00:02 <ehird> looking for the figure for one gb
20:00:26 <AnMaster> btw, how does harddrives and SSD compare in weight?
20:00:38 <ehird> AnMaster: SSDs are much lighter
20:00:46 <ehird> 81g for some samsung 256G(i)B SSD
20:01:09 <ehird> "Every Gigabyte counts as 5oz of extra weight for your computer.There has been cases (in computers with 1Tb of Hard drive and more) of people left eMule activated 3 days and when that people returned to the computer,there was a hole in the floor instead"
20:01:38 <ehird> conclusion: it gets lighter the more you store
20:01:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:02:23 <ehird> AnMaster: did you see that really high-resolution thinkpad screen i mentioned?
20:02:44 <ehird> 21:08:26 <ehird> ok, the highest PPI display I know of that isn't the ibm thingy: the 2048x1356 15" for thinkpads
20:02:44 <ehird> 21:08:32 <ehird> 163.75 PPI
20:02:44 <ehird> 21:08:39 <ehird> *squints*
20:03:19 <ehird> can put them in T60s (with some hacking) and two R models of a similar time, iirc
20:03:23 <ehird> AnMaster: the ibm twhatevers
20:03:26 <ehird> the 200something ones
20:03:38 <ehird> but these are notebook-sized
20:03:57 <ehird> http://images.tigerdirect.com/itemDetails/t221-med.jpg
20:03:58 <ehird> don't you remember
20:04:10 -!- SimonRC has joined.
20:04:11 <ehird> you said you wanted one
20:04:33 <AnMaster> iirc it was a NEC that I wanted
20:04:40 <ehird> that wasn't high-ppi
20:04:45 <ehird> anyway, 2048x1356 is the kind of stuff you see in 30" displays and there's basically nothing more
20:04:55 <ehird> so packing it into a semi-light, thin 15" is just awesome
20:05:01 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, good colours is better than high dpi
20:05:24 <ehird> who cares about colours if you can fit 10 windows on the screen
20:05:34 <ehird> I'd take a monochrome with a huge ppi
20:06:27 <ehird> if you're a photographer.
20:06:49 <ehird> but typographers have a science behind it and photographers just throw shit together, so eat a dick, colours
20:07:06 <AnMaster> ehird, photos also have a science behind
20:07:25 <AnMaster> lots of studies on that sort of stuff
20:07:32 <ehird> nothing like typographer.
20:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, about the same I would say
20:07:57 <ehird> no, because judging a photo is still ultimately just subjective bullshit
20:11:23 -!- augur_ has quit ("Leaving...").
20:11:31 <ehird> epiphany webkit is so unstable :(
20:19:09 <Sgeo> When Windows opens GHCi when I double-click a .hs file, can I force the resulting window to use an icon?
20:19:29 <ehird> Sgeo really cares abut his specific terminals having an icon.
20:20:44 -!- sebbu has joined.
20:22:08 <ehird> "Submitted 6 minutes ago, 2022 upvotes, 2 downvotes" --reddit
20:22:26 <ehird> (now: Submitted 10 minutes ago, 2078 upvotes, 13 downvotes)
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20:54:28 <AnMaster> <Gregor> chmod -R 5777 / <-- 5777?
20:54:47 <Gregor> (And sticky, for some reason)
20:55:02 <AnMaster> Gregor, reason for this complete messup of system?
20:55:18 <Gregor> I just like f***ing things up?
20:56:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, ok. Easy to fix in freebsd, running mtree as root
20:56:14 <AnMaster> won't fix it for non-base system though
20:57:52 <fizzie> There's a brainfuck interp, and I think it's unlimited-tape.
20:58:05 <AnMaster> how do you do flow control in it?
20:59:03 <AnMaster> hm the loop should be possible to use for it
21:00:24 <ehird> Also, you could recurse.
21:00:43 <ehird> Gregor: is chmod -R 5777 / setgid too?
21:01:32 -!- SimonRC has joined.
21:01:51 <Gregor> (Or 6777, if you don't care about sticky)
21:02:07 <ehird> 7777: the permissions of the kings.
21:03:14 -!- augur has joined.
21:03:52 <Ilari> X-Mas permissions, or lamp test permissions...
21:03:58 <fizzie> 77777; it has all the permissions, but it's also simultaneously a FIFO, a character device and a directory.
21:04:44 <Ilari> AnMaster: 'lamp test segment'.
21:05:08 <fizzie> "A Christmas tree packet is a packet with every single option set for whatever protocol is in use. Also known as a "Kamikaze" packet, nastygram, and lamp test segment."
21:05:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I didn't know that synonym
21:05:36 <AnMaster> and yes I know what a xmas packet
21:05:40 <ehird> which is cooler: JFS or XFS?
21:05:52 <ehird> both of you: justify.
21:06:04 <ehird> all three of you: justify. Gregor: butterflies.
21:06:19 <ehird> butterfly-tornado-fs
21:06:53 <AnMaster> ehird, jfs is known to cause issues (corruption) with vmware for example, and other apps. Also the defrag tool for jfs is not available for linux. While the online defrag tool for xfs is
21:07:12 <ehird> I don't use vmware, and I don't need to defrag an SSD.
21:07:15 <AnMaster> and xfs supports lot of cool features that jfs doesn't
21:08:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well not something you will use. It's for redundant setups... Like multiple ways to reach the same hardware. IIRC xfs has some file system driver level support for it
21:08:22 <AnMaster> to make the best possible use of it
21:08:30 <ehird> Right, doesn't really bother me.
21:08:41 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure about online resizing with jfs, xfs supports it though
21:08:48 <ehird> Oh, what about btrfs? I gather itm ostly has a cool internal structure like ext4 and no actual real-world fun features.
21:08:51 <AnMaster> and in my experience xfs is really good
21:08:53 <ehird> (And it's also unstable, presumably.)
21:09:01 <AnMaster> but that is harddrive experience
21:09:29 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway xfs has lots of real-world fun features
21:09:36 <AnMaster> and since Ilari isn't about to justify...
21:09:41 <ehird> The performance difference for XFS vs JFS vs ext3 probably won't be very large.
21:09:54 <AnMaster> ehird, I would go ext4, not ext3
21:09:57 <ehird> Not ext4; if I'm going fun, I'll go *fun*.
21:10:10 <ehird> ext3 is what Ubuntu does by default when you use one of the predefined install options, I think.
21:10:14 <ehird> If it's ext4 I'll use that instead.
21:10:21 <Ilari> That was picking from XFS and JFS. And since I have seen what XFS does in just regular system lockup...
21:10:25 <ehird> Gregor: just don't name any files nina!
21:10:32 <Gregor> The FS won't kill ya :P
21:10:51 <ehird> It actually phones home. Nina was using a pre-alpha version, we were going to be next...
21:10:58 <ehird> (^ Could make a really, really bad movie)
21:11:12 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot a "really" there
21:11:42 <AnMaster> this would be WORSE than plan9 from outer space
21:12:03 <Gregor> But still better than Gayniggers from Outer Space
21:12:08 <ehird> Plan 9 is a good movie, from what I hear; bad, but that gives it art.
21:12:13 <ehird> I'm far more interested in things that are simply bad.
21:12:28 <ehird> Plan 9's redeeming quality is its hysterical badness; but a movie on the outskirts of badness is just really, really bad.
21:12:30 <ehird> The latter is far more fun.
21:12:55 <ehird> If you laugh because a part's really bad, it's probably not just bad. :P
21:13:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you are saying plan9 is so bad it is good?
21:13:15 <SimonRC> On another topic... do you know if is a way to recover from the root device on linux disappearing and reappearing.
21:13:42 <SimonRC> I was thinking something that left everything intact
21:13:51 <AnMaster> SimonRC, using a tmpfs as root to begin with
21:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Plan 9 is probably so bad it's good, yes.
21:14:00 <ehird> Never seen it myself.
21:14:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I seen short sections from it
21:14:32 <ehird> Anyway, does anybody know if Ubuntu optimises hibernation? Because on this desktop, it takes like 30 seconds to hibernate and resuming is really slow too.
21:14:35 <AnMaster> and horribly bad plot on wikipedia
21:14:39 <ehird> Does LinuxOnIce have an Ubuntu package or something?
21:15:04 <AnMaster> ehird, takes like 10 seconds to suspend to disk and 5 seconds to resume for me on my laptop
21:15:10 <SimonRC> AnMaster: is the tmpfs thing something you know will work or just an idea?
21:15:10 <ehird> I don't really care about resume time (RAM-based suspension ftw) but I want to hybrid-sleep so I can not worry about losing my data, and that should only take one or two seconds.
21:15:10 <AnMaster> suspend to ram is of course a LOT faster
21:15:31 <ehird> OS X can hybrid-sleep in about three seconds on this non-SSD computer, so...
21:15:33 <AnMaster> SimonRC, well it will obviously not depend on the root device then
21:15:39 <AnMaster> SimonRC, so thus it should work
21:15:55 <AnMaster> SimonRC, of course you need quite a bit of ram for it
21:16:17 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't really care about resume time (RAM-based suspension ftw) but I want to hybrid-sleep so I can not worry about losing my data, and that should only take one or two seconds. <-- don't think linux does that
21:16:17 <SimonRC> ideally I want something like there is for nfs...
21:16:37 <AnMaster> SimonRC, just use an internal disk
21:16:44 <SimonRC> if you lose network, everything that tries to use it just hang until the network scomes back, then continues as normal
21:16:57 <AnMaster> SimonRC, that depends on options
21:17:00 <SimonRC> AnMaster: my internal disk makes funny noises and doesn't mount
21:17:13 <AnMaster> SimonRC, um. time to get a replacement
21:17:13 <SimonRC> (I will get it fixed soon)
21:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: does what?
21:17:43 <ehird> Of course there's hybrid-suspend.
21:17:51 <ehird> <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't really care about resume time (RAM-based suspension ftw) but I want to hybrid-sleep so I can not worry about losing my data, and that should only take one or two seconds. <-- don't think linux does that
21:18:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but afaik that isn't what suspend does on linux
21:18:27 <ehird> I don't care what the menu items do.
21:19:08 <ehird> what do you mean, hm
21:19:50 <AnMaster> what do you mean "what do you mean, hm"
21:20:32 <ehird> see: pm-suspend-hybrid
21:20:38 <ehird> of course linux does it
21:21:41 <ehird> grr, apparently that's not the same as os x's behaviour
21:21:44 <ehird> why is linux so retarded
21:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what is os x behaviour and what is linux behaviour?
21:22:49 <ehird> os x's is "do the same writing out that hibernation does, then RAM-suspend; if we reboot before resuming, it wakes from hibernation"
21:23:01 <ehird> since OS X's hibernation is so fast, this allows quick resume times while being safe
21:23:24 <ehird> linux's is, I don't know, but from what I gather it does something similar, except it wakes from hibernation when you turn it on
21:23:29 <ehird> so the only thing you skip is the BIOS and GRUb
21:23:40 <ehird> == most retardedly pointless thing ever dreamt of in the history of the universe
21:25:46 <AnMaster> not as far as I can tell from the documentation
21:25:53 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with that; but with "s2both" (which does the "write hibernation stuff to disk and go to s3 sleep or whatever) the waking-up is just a second or two.
21:26:07 <ehird> importantly, fast suspend and fast resume are super-important on notebooks, and yet I won't carry a batteried notebook around knowing my data is stored so fragile in RAM
21:26:12 <AnMaster> but writing to disk still takes quite a bit of time
21:26:17 <ehird> so I need what I said: fast hibernation that then suspends to RAM and resumes from RAM
21:26:48 <ehird> AnMaster: surely doesn't have to be the case; OS X does it in one or two seconds with 2.5GiB of RAM of which I've used almost all and a notebook HD
21:27:13 <AnMaster> maybe depends on speed of disk
21:27:48 <ehird> either 5400rpm or 7200rpm, don't know. My notebook will be maxing out the 1.5Gb/s (gigabit) original-SATA bus with my SSD.
21:27:51 <fizzie> Well, the hybrid-hibernation I've been using certainly resumes from RAM. But the write-to-disk stage is not really very fast on Linux; I'm not sure how it compares to OS X, since I haven't ever gotten the iBook to do anything else than suspend-to-RAM.
21:28:16 <ehird> (the motherboard's my biggest enemy in that machine... only original SATA, limited to 3GiB of RAM (with BIOS hacks, you can get something like 3.7GiB))
21:29:25 <ehird> because nobody had more than 2GiB those days, so they just reserved a whole GiB for graphics card memory + internal system stuff + blah blah
21:29:45 <ehird> in practice they use something like .3-.5GiB, but if you plug in too many components like ExpressCard you may run out, I gues
21:30:15 <ehird> anyway, if I use all 3.7GiB (all of it, all allocated and not in swap or anything) then the absolute theoretical minimum time it can suspend to disk is 19.73 seconds
21:30:17 <ehird> limited by the SATA bus
21:30:28 <ehird> assuming memory latency is 0
21:30:38 <ehird> AnMaster: 32-bit address space, I think
21:30:42 <ehird> even though the cpu can be 64-bit
21:31:11 <AnMaster> (it is the physical adress space of current x86_64 cpus=
21:31:24 <ehird> the cpu itself is 64-bit
21:31:27 <ehird> see e.g. registers
21:31:45 <ehird> anyway, you can plug in 8GiB or whatever (well, maybe; it might not accept that) but it still just reserves the top GiB of the address space
21:31:55 <ehird> again, I'll probably use the BIOS hack to up this to ~3.7GiB
21:32:02 <AnMaster> actually my intel core 2 duo is 36 bit physical but 48 bits virtual
21:32:09 <ehird> maybe even work on theories to get more out of it
21:32:28 <AnMaster> and the architecture can go up to 64 bits in theory yes
21:32:54 <ehird> still, I can only use 4GiB if I use the T61 or later, and the only 4:3 screen they had was a not-very-popular 14" with a quite low resolution
21:33:05 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you claim non-widescreen was dead when you talked to me about me buying a notebook
21:33:06 <ehird> so I'll have to dela
21:33:27 <ehird> AnMaster: it is, nothing is sold any more in 4:3
21:33:33 <ehird> but, based on my love for widescreen desktops, I assumed this was a good thing
21:34:06 <ehird> wow, the group of jerks called, they want their jerk back.
21:35:10 <AnMaster> address sizes : 40 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
21:35:41 <AnMaster> so my old sempron has larger physical address space than my core 2 duo
21:35:49 <ehird> it's good that the T60 was wildly popular, so me and my T60p should have a lot of fellow users to get by in this modern world...
21:36:17 <ehird> still, core 2 duo, SSD, almost 4GiB of RAM, 1600x1200, it isn't such a horrific world :P
21:36:21 <fizzie> You're feeling restricted by the 64 gigabyte physical address space of the core 2?
21:36:36 <AnMaster> ehird, alternatively get a very high res widescreen notebook?
21:36:50 <AnMaster> thus giving you the possibility of having multiple windows side by side
21:37:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is a mobile core 2 duo, not sure if that matters
21:37:41 <AnMaster> possibly you need a server cpu to go higher
21:38:54 <fizzie> Possibly; the Core 2 Quad Q9400 says "36 bits physical" in /proc/cpuinfo, at least.
21:39:07 <fizzie> I don't know about the i7 hardware.
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21:40:45 <fizzie> Hey, that's a bit strange.
21:40:48 <fizzie> "address sizes : 32 bits physical, 48 bits virtual"
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21:41:54 <fizzie> That's on the "model name: Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU 230 @ 1.60GHz" box. I guess it makes sort-of sense there.
21:42:35 <fizzie> A Xeon E5430, to be specific: address sizes : 38 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
21:44:21 <AnMaster> still two less than my old sempron from late 2005
21:45:30 <fizzie> AMD seems to do that 40 bits across the models; it's 40 on your sempron, 40 on my Athlon X2, and 40 on our Opteron 248 and Opteron 2220 SE cluster nodes.
21:48:49 <AnMaster> you sure have access to a lot of computers
21:49:11 <AnMaster> what is the 48 bit virtual about?
21:49:45 <fizzie> I assume it's about the 48-bit virtual address size limit we've talked about and all.
21:50:01 <AnMaster> and 36 or whatever is how much physical it can adress
21:50:32 <fizzie> That might even map directly to the number of address pins.
21:55:14 <fizzie> Well, it seems to read from the CPUID results (how surprising) when those are available. Though there are quite a lot of constant phys_bits settings too; like phys_bits = 36 when X86_FEATURE_PAE exists.
22:00:18 <fizzie> There's some comp.os.vms posting where some guy says desktop Nehalem variants (incl. i7) have 36 physical bits, Xeon 5500 (which I guess is the Nehalem server-side) series have the same 40 bits AMD does, the upcoming Nehalem-EX eight-core server chips should do 44 bits, and Itanium in general has 50 physical bits.
22:00:59 <fizzie> Unsourced statements, of course.
22:01:27 <ehird> Itanium: for when you have 1TB.
22:02:02 <ehird> Pebibytes, you mean.
22:02:15 <fizzie> I guess so, though it sounds a bit silly.
22:02:25 <ehird> yes, the bi expansions are
22:02:40 <fizzie> Not as silly as the next one: exbibyte.
22:02:41 <ehird> wonder what an exabyte is
22:03:00 <ehird> Yobibyte is my new favourite thing ever.
22:03:36 <fizzie> They should really get cracking with hardware design so that we'd get to actually use those names.
22:04:29 <ehird> What about the imaginary-but-easily-derivable binarified SI prefixes?
22:04:52 <ehird> Debibyte. Cebibyte. Milbibte.
22:05:09 <ehird> Fembibyte. Atbibyte. Zepbibyte.
22:05:46 <fizzie> Nanbibyte... or would that just be the more easily pronounceable nambibyte?
22:05:46 * SimonRC recommends that any of you not reading the latest MS Paint Adventure (Homestuck) should be
22:05:50 <ehird> (Note: All of these are sub-bits. :P)
22:06:32 <fizzie> Debibyte sounds very Debianish. Though it is a bit unclear whether that's a binary decibyte or a binary decabyte.
22:06:54 <ehird> A hebibyte is 2**7 bytes.
22:07:06 <ehird> fizzie: Decbibyte, then.
22:07:40 <fizzie> Is a decbibyte 2^3 then?
22:08:25 <ehird> fizzie: Decabibyte and decibibyte, I guess. :P
22:08:44 <ehird> But semi isn't an SI prefix.
22:08:46 <SimonRC> (a binry semi, not a SI one ;-) )
22:09:17 <ehird> The obsolete prefixes such as myrio- and myria- (denoting a factor of 10,000) were dropped before SI was adopted in 1960, probably because they did not fit this pattern, no one-letter symbol was available (M, m, and µ already being used; the two-letter symbols mo and ma were used instead) and were rarely used anyway.
22:09:30 <ehird> Mybibyte. (Bonus: Sounds like mebibyte.)
22:09:52 <fizzie> I don't really like the rounding involved in 2^3 and 2^7, but I guess you don't very often happen to have 2^(10/3) or 2^(20/3) bytes.
22:10:03 <ehird> Either 16384 or 8192 bytes, I guess.
22:11:02 <fizzie> If a decabibyte is 2^3 = 8 bytes, that's a reasonably useful size. You don't have to say "this structure contains three qword-wide fields" when you can opt for "this structure contains three decabibyte-sized fields".
22:11:47 <ehird> The z and y on the extreme prefixes zepto-, yocto- and Zetta-, Yotta- suggest the start of a series backwards through the alphabet. Following the initial letters are distorted Greek numerals (h)epta- and octa-. This pattern has been extended further, with the terms xenno-, weko-, vendeko-, udeko- and xenna-, weka-, vendeka-, udeka-, from Greek ennea-, deka-, endeka-, dodeka-; sometimes a t is added for greater differentiation, though both xento-, wekto- et
22:11:47 <ehird> c. and xenta-, wekta- etc. have been proposed.[7]
22:11:58 <fizzie> "The chip is controlled by the memory-mapped decabibyte register at address ..."
22:12:29 <ehird> Vendeko is 10^-33; someone else work out the power of 2.
22:12:48 <ehird> More usefully, 10^33 is vendeka.
22:13:11 <SimonRC> the approximation gets a bit shit by that point
22:13:19 <ehird> 1,073,741,824 yottabytes.
22:13:39 <ehird> SimonRC: Yes; it's 2.98074215 * 10^32 off.
22:14:03 <ehird> Anyway, that's so sci-fi.
22:14:35 <fizzie> "Wait a second, just let me insert my holographic three vendekabibyte memory cube."
22:14:55 <ehird> "The Mother was an impressive system, fitted with the latest giga-core processors -- 10,000 of them. Among its specifications included a vendekabibyte of memory, 1 million vendakabibytes of storage and a webcam and microphone in every home..."
22:14:55 <SimonRC> well, I have seen a 4TB thumb drive
22:15:03 <ehird> SimonRC: presumably not USB
22:15:10 <SimonRC> only in fiction though: http://dresdencodak.com/2007/06/12/the-witching-hour/
22:15:21 <fizzie> "Your search - vendekabibyte - did not match any documents."
22:15:24 <SimonRC> *she stored brain scans on it)
22:15:43 <ehird> fizzie: Yes, well, the vendeka is an unofficial unit that I've just got from one page and I just made up the binary mangling of it. :P
22:15:49 <ehird> SimonRC: surely the brain stores over 4TiB
22:16:23 <fizzie> The "have been proposed" made it sound so serious.
22:17:09 <ehird> It's from "The Physics Hypertextbook", don't you know.
22:17:15 <AnMaster> <ehird> Then a yobibyte. <-- read that as yoshibyte first time around
22:17:32 <ehird> It's a-me, the mariobyte thumb drive!
22:17:33 <fizzie> A yoshibyte is green and it's got a long tongue.
22:18:51 <SimonRC> how does Yoshi eat so much stuff?
22:19:08 <SimonRC> maybe he's bigger on the inside
22:19:26 * SimonRC tries to recall any other character that is bigger on th einside
22:20:06 <SimonRC> and before you say it, Nibbleronians use compression not spacial distortion
22:20:19 <ehird> was going to say that
22:20:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> So Vendekabibyte. <-- read that as vendettabibyte
22:20:30 <ehird> You may call me Vbyte?
22:20:35 <SimonRC> ehird: yeah, 'cause I told them not to
22:22:44 <AnMaster> ehird, time to invoke rule #34 on yoshi?
22:23:32 <ehird> I estimate the probability of the result of that rule 34 already existing in this spatial dimension and being distributed on the internet as about 99.72%.
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22:23:50 <ehird> Oh, fuck you, Google images.
22:24:01 <fizzie> "VndiB for Vendettabibyte".
22:24:27 * SimonRC [redacted] being bigger on the inside [redacted] though that doesn't really count as 34 because it never left my head
22:24:41 <ehird> SimonRC: WHY DIDN'T YOU REDACT THAT WHOLE SENTENCE.
22:24:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> Oh, fuck you, Google images. <-- there is yoshi porn?
22:24:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, and I'm not surprised at all.
22:25:18 <SimonRC> no, he's using new erotiGoogle
22:25:26 <SimonRC> you have to litterally fuck it to get search results
22:25:35 <ehird> "yoshi porn" on Google Images without safe search: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, weight.
22:25:54 <ehird> First page, that is.
22:26:15 <AnMaster> ehird, how many pics are there in total?
22:26:22 <ehird> Also, one of them is hermaphroditic, so this is possibly the most stereotypical google images search result ever.
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22:26:45 <ehird> 14 images contained Yoshi.
22:27:11 <ehird> So 57.14% of the search results concerning Yoshi were porn.
22:27:15 <augur> where cn i get somma that
22:30:25 * SimonRC goes to get food to help reducse his running nose.
22:30:25 <ehird> a 12-cell thinkpad battery here
22:30:38 <ehird> well, give or take 0.0718474 and a bit.
22:30:48 <ehird> AnMaster: how much does your 6-cell weigh, I wonder?
22:30:54 <ehird> if you have the patience to take it out and check
22:31:08 <ehird> it's quite the imposing thing: http://www.laptoppartsexpert.com/i-59115-battery-12-cell-li-ion.html
22:31:10 <AnMaster> wait a few hours until it chargesd
22:31:14 <ehird> doesn't look like it has a rounded end, though
22:31:15 <AnMaster> don't want to abort it right now
22:31:23 <ehird> in fact it looks to have the same footprint as a 6-cell
22:31:25 <ehird> maybe poking out a little
22:31:53 <ehird> that + UltraBay battery must surely pump some battery life
22:32:31 <ehird> looks to be only for the G40/G41, that, but I'm sure they all work with other models too
22:32:55 <AnMaster> wouldn't work with mine iirc. mine says 12 V I think
22:33:13 <AnMaster> again I can't easily check since the text is on the side hidden from view when it is charging
22:33:20 <ehird> G40/G41 being Celeron/Pentium 4 desktop replacement systems
22:33:48 <ehird> the t60p appears to be 10.8V too
22:33:51 <ehird> http://www.smartbright.co.uk/ibm-thinkpad-t60p-laptop-batteries-4400mah-p-229.html
22:35:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that looks similar, but not identical, to mine
22:35:34 <ehird> the 12-cell is probably third-party
22:36:50 <ehird> so this and the ultrabay battery = 1.14kg total battery solution
22:37:12 <ehird> i'm sure those can pump out 6 hours from a T60p
22:37:34 <AnMaster> if new yeah, but they degrade over time
22:37:48 <ehird> so i'll replace them
22:39:12 <ehird> 2 quarks and a tachyon.
22:39:30 <ehird> (But seriously, wut?)
22:39:54 <AnMaster> ehird, frequency and wavelength. didn't you take physics?
22:40:00 <ehird> I'm aware what wavelength is.
22:40:11 <ehird> I was just checking whether it was something actually meaningful in the context of CPUs that I wasn't aware of.
22:40:32 <ehird> You will note that I responded to your nonsensical-in-context physics with the same. :P
22:41:27 <ehird> Looks like I need an Ultrabay Slim battery.
22:41:43 <AnMaster> But still incorrect... UNLESS you reverse polarity. However that would probably short the CPU so thus the real answer is of course 1 quark and 2 tachyons
22:41:47 <ehird> Which weighs 280g.
22:41:51 <ehird> "Up to 2 hours", apparently.
22:42:00 <ehird> "T60 series, use the Advanced Ultrabay Battery instead
22:42:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> Which weighs 280g. <-- XD
22:42:15 <ehird> The advanced ultrabay battery weighs 235g.
22:42:40 <ehird> Them ThinkPads sure are portable.
22:43:07 <ehird> "UltraslimBay"; distinct from the Ultrabay Slim.
22:43:21 <ehird> Used in ye olde Pentium 1 machines and such.
22:45:16 <fizzie> Ultrabay Slim, a British DJ, big beat musician, record producer and pioneer of the electronic dance genre. Or was that Fatboy?
22:45:47 <fizzie> They could make some sort of IBM-themed music piece under the "Ultrabay Slim" name.
22:46:31 <ehird> Totally gangsta business machines.
22:47:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> Used in ye olde Pentium 1 machines and such. <-- oh?
22:47:47 <ehird> Up to Pentium III, even.
22:48:00 <AnMaster> was that like ultrabay but way back?
22:48:34 <ehird> No, just a slim version, obvious.
22:49:51 <AnMaster> oh btw I have "Serial Ultrabay Enhanced"
22:50:04 <ehird> Serial Ultrabay killer.
22:50:19 <AnMaster> there is Serial Ultrabay Slim too, but that is older
22:52:25 <AnMaster> ehird, btw there is a compat matrix on http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Ultrabay
22:52:35 <ehird> Yes, I saw that name from there.
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22:56:03 <ehird> Seems like the T41 was the last IBM ThinkPad.
22:56:50 <ehird> Hmm, the T42 might be too
22:57:46 <ehird> So the T60 was the first Lenovo.
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23:24:40 <ehird_> AnMaster: T5x was skipped, yeah
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23:32:19 <ehird_> they skipped winamp 4 because nobody wanted to see a winamp 4 skin.
23:32:25 <ehird_> (that's the official explanation)
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23:33:08 <fizzie> I thought they called it Winamp 5 because it was made by combining Winamp 2 and Winamp 3.
23:33:23 <ehird_> Well, that was another explanation.
23:33:41 <fizzie> Oh, yes, they are both "official" in the "is in their FAQ" sense.
23:34:11 <fizzie> Additionally "We think that a Fibonacci sequence for versioning might be pretty damn cool."
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23:35:28 <AnMaster> use grahams number for it. So g_1, g_2 and so on
23:35:49 <ehird_> that's rather infeasible
23:36:28 <AnMaster> I don't remember how large g_1 and g_2 are though
23:37:55 <fizzie> g_1 is already 3^^^^3, where ^ is the up-arrow, so it sounds pretty big.
23:38:01 <ehird_> AnMaster: unimaginably
23:38:26 <ehird_> the typical explanation of graham's number goes through so many mind-boggling steps that you cease to have any sort of recognition at all about what kind of number it is or even that it's a number; just meaningless symbols
23:38:29 <ehird_> turns out that's just g_1.
23:39:57 <AnMaster> lets define g_(-n) to be 1/(g_n)
23:40:49 <fizzie> I like the TeX/metafont versioning, but using that would just be copying.
23:41:41 <ehird_> just use a random number (previous+1,inf].
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23:47:52 <Ilari> 3^^^3 is already 7625597484987th of 3, 27, 7625597484987, ... 3^^^^3 is much bigger.
23:48:53 <ehird_> I wonder what the largest number the human mind can emotionally recognise is.
23:49:31 <AnMaster> it's certainly over 9000 at least
23:49:51 <ehird_> are you at absolute zero?
23:49:58 <ehird_> hm no can't be, you certainly aren't an ice burn
23:50:01 <ehird_> you never change, however
23:50:10 <ehird_> ^^^ MOST ELABORATE BURN EVER?
23:50:20 <AnMaster> ehird_, I wonder if it may vary individually
23:50:36 <AnMaster> I mean about how larger number you can emotionally understand
23:50:50 <ehird_> the monkeysphere is constant, for instance
23:51:28 <ehird_> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number)
23:51:40 <AnMaster> that's about "how many people you can consider human" right?
23:51:51 <ehird_> probably about 150 for humans
23:52:08 <ehird_> (which rather depressingly debunks the idea that direct democracy can work humanely for >150 people)
23:53:05 <AnMaster> I'm not sure who said "Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the other ones".
23:53:32 <ehird_> who was both witty and a crazy warmonger
23:53:43 <ehird_> although the former tends to obscure the latter.
23:53:52 <ehird_> AnMaster: hey, i'm a pacifist :P
23:54:04 <ehird_> anyway if you ask the british yooth, churchill is that dog in the insurance adverts. oh yes.
23:54:04 <AnMaster> I think there is some truth in that quote though. Sadly
23:54:36 <ehird_> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB8r6JefDhI)
23:55:09 <ehird_> (there was an actual survey done.)
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23:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird_, hm "not available in my region"
23:56:34 <ehird_> here's a different one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESOGyiZbUrc
23:58:23 <ehird_> how could you possibly expect our yooth to know the name of the prime minister that won wwii
23:58:41 <fizzie> "wwii, is that some sort of new variant of the Nintendo Wii?"
00:01:11 <Ilari> No, its something that's just plain unimaginable for those that didn't live through it... :->
00:01:46 <fizzie> Right, just like the Wii.
00:04:04 <ehird_> Ilari: you can't say that if you didn't, did you :P
00:04:12 <ehird_> (although i wouldn't be surprised if you did)
00:06:22 <Ilari> There are things in world that one knows that are just plain unimaginable... They are so far from everyday experience that all mental approximations about them fail...
00:07:15 <ehird_> I don't really think that applies to WWII, although of course there are assumptions in that statement.
00:07:38 <ehird_> Being in any war is scary; you don't care if 10 other countries will be obliterated too if the threat is that yours might be.
00:13:22 <Ilari> Also, civilization failure level events are really scary (the end of the world as we know it)...
00:14:21 <ehird_> stop trying to shatter my illusion that society will be just fine in the ~70 years i have left.
00:14:41 <ehird_> well, maybe even 70 years, being young.
00:14:59 <Sgeo> Oooh, Haskell lets me manipulate floating point stuff easily
00:15:03 <Sgeo> I've been looking for that
00:15:07 <ehird_> no more than any language
00:15:47 <Sgeo> http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/libraries/base/Prelude.html#t%3ARealFloat
00:15:52 <Ilari> If civilization fails in wide enough area at once, the death toll is going to be HORRIBLE. Spanish flu caused a couple in remote areas. IIRC, 90% of population died in those cases.
00:16:01 <ehird_> Sgeo: yah, every language has that dude.
00:16:19 <ehird_> Ilari: become a hermit y/n
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00:16:49 <Sgeo> There's a function equivalent to decodeFloat in Python?
00:17:17 <Ilari> That's a task for hardcore survivalists... I'm not one of those... :-)
00:17:22 <Sgeo> Ok, this is not what I was expecting
00:18:07 <ehird_> i like civilisation mostly.
00:20:08 <ehird_> AnMaster: i was wrong, there is a t30
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00:21:13 <Ilari> The tendency seems to be that as technology processes, the safety margins in civilization shrink. And as consequence, civilization becomes more and more vulernable to unexpected external events.
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00:22:54 <ehird_> western civilisation seems to be happily bumbling along for quite a while now
00:26:37 <Ilari> Global-level or even regional-level massive disturbances are rare. I was refering to magitude of those required for massive trouble decreasing...
00:27:20 <ehird_> just saying that we've been lucky so far.
00:27:46 <Ilari> You really think modern civilization wouldn't be in serious trouble with 1918-level pandemic? If that's not enough, what about black-deth level (and both have happened and mostly didn't take down civilization)?
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00:29:15 <ehird_> Ilari: Of course it'd be in trouble.
00:29:25 <ehird_> I'm just saying that we've had a continuous western society for a long time.
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00:33:26 <Ilari> The reason those disasters are rare is because there aren't that many possible (known) causes for those. Severe pandemic, Supervolcano, Very powerful magnetic storm...
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00:37:22 <Ilari> Last exceedingly powerful magnetic storm was year 1859. Auroras all the way to Hawaii. Telegraph systems getting fried by the energy coupling into wires. Wires spontaneously short-circuiting by excess voltage...
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02:16:48 <ehird_> Does anyone even use Gib?
02:17:53 <ehird_> As opposed to Gb (gigabits), where 1 Gb = 119.2 MiB.
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02:35:32 <ehird> http://www.somasuite.org/screenshot/somax11_2.png worst interface ever
02:40:42 <Sgeo> What's a calendar doing in there?
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02:43:34 <Ilari> http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000734.html
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02:52:55 <Gregor> ehird: What the flying fuck?
02:53:30 <oerjan> what the flying fuck: the worst cartoon character ever
02:53:33 <ehird> Gregor: i know right
02:53:39 <ehird> it's something to do with music
02:54:14 <ehird> subtle hilarious detail: there's a *whole menu* for NextSong
02:54:24 <ehird> this thing can queue up songs so flexibly it needed a menu
02:55:35 <Gregor> That screenshot is on the site for that program?!
02:55:49 <Gregor> Like, this is what they think is a GOOD screenshot for the program?
02:56:28 <ehird> Gregor: that's the "SomaX" program though. their mere SomaPlayer is much simpler: http://www.somasuite.org/screenshot/soma_session.jpg
02:56:57 <ehird> also, their two architecture designs:
02:56:58 <ehird> http://www.somasuite.org/screenshot/somagrafico.png
02:57:02 <ehird> http://www.somasuite.org/screenshot/somagrafico2.png
02:57:08 <ehird> can you say astronomic complexity?!
02:57:35 <ehird> i think the stick figure in the latter is more appropriate than they could possibly know
02:57:51 <Gregor> Their architecture design involves storming a castle.
02:58:01 <ehird> a castle of complexity!
02:58:14 <ehird> they forgot the dragon, also known as their UI.
02:58:26 <ehird> it should be in front of the moat of lava, representing a moat of lava.
02:59:32 <ehird> *Seems to be perfect.*
02:59:33 <ehird> --http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/procmail/procmail-11/procmail/src/procmail.c
02:59:38 <ehird> (just click it and scroll, I dare you)
03:02:24 <Gregor> I love that "Palinsesti" is the only untranslated word.
03:02:38 <ehird> i have a horrible feeling it's not meant to be translated
03:02:55 <Gregor> It's a word entirely unique to SomaX.
03:03:03 <ehird> maybe they couldn't think of any other way to spice up the word "Listings"
03:03:08 <ehird> so they just translated it to italian.
03:03:26 <ehird> your brand has to PENETRATE your users
03:03:31 <ehird> even if it's just a single feature.
03:03:53 <ehird> I love the "Stop for:"
03:04:00 <ehird> You know, just in case you want a few seconds or a few hours of silence.
03:04:17 <ehird> Or want to watch that YouTube video and then listen to music STRAIGHT AFTER.
03:05:12 <Gregor> I CANNOT TOLERATE A MILLISECOND OF SILENCE
03:05:28 <ehird> it ought to include an option to click the mouse button at a certain time
03:05:41 <ehird> so you can just position your cursor over the youtube play button after setting up a silence
03:07:12 <ehird> how else will you laugh at the hilarity of that porn video immediately seguing into rick astley
03:08:45 <ehird> THIS IS A CRUCIAL FEATURE
03:08:54 <ehird> in fact it should embed the video in the pane so you can see it happen
03:09:03 <ehird> it needs a youtube downloader & viewer built in for this
03:09:07 <ehird> wait, wait, we're inventing emacs here
03:09:27 <ehird> M-x play-youtube-video-then-play-audio-file
03:09:59 <ehird> it's the 5th most common emacs operation, after M-x find-integer-returning-functions-with-a-string-argument-and-replace-their-third-word-with-if
03:11:02 <oerjan> i have this vague feeling you may not be entirely serious there
03:11:43 <ehird> anyway, I might be moving. what's up with that.
03:11:52 <ehird> the answer is: elephants.
03:11:56 <ehird> elephants are up with that.
03:12:01 <oerjan> good. you probably need exercise.
03:12:18 <ehird> "I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long."
03:12:59 <oerjan> now if we are talking about moving elephants, then that might be a bit too much exercise.
03:14:13 <oerjan> otoh if you are moving because of an elephant infestation, then why haven't i seen it in the news?
03:14:25 <ehird> because norway is in a bubble
03:14:29 <oerjan> the pøssibilities are endless
03:14:39 <ehird> the pøssibilities indeed.
03:14:46 <oerjan> (that ø was by accident but i decided to keep it)
03:14:58 <ehird> i was about to ask
03:15:02 <oerjan> or rather, i erased then reentered it
03:15:06 <Gregor> Ten years from now, of oerjan's son: <oerjan> (that ø was by accident but i decided to keep it)
03:15:20 <Gregor> (oerjan will name his son "ø", btw)
03:15:41 <ehird> no, it'll be "bumble bumble at 48 i am so old i am practically collapsing with mental fog bumble bumble"
03:15:53 <oerjan> that might not be wise, since it basically means "er" in norwegian
03:16:03 <ehird> "What's your name?" "Er."
03:16:09 <ehird> "You don't your name?" "Yes I do!"
03:16:12 <ehird> "What is it then?" "Er."
03:16:21 <ehird> "..." "I told you! It's er!"
03:16:37 <ehird> I accidentally the er.
03:17:12 <oerjan> otoh the chance of my having a son is somewhere below the chance of earth being hit by an asteroid.
03:18:00 <ehird> it turns out that body of literature we fed the singularity was mostly rape-based fanfiction. turns out you're the 7,302th smartest person alive.
03:18:26 <ehird> i am not entirely sure how an AI has children, though
03:18:34 <ehird> oerjan: i don't even know.
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03:39:20 <Gregor> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1
03:39:36 <ehird> except it's timeouting now.
03:40:04 * Sgeo wishes Haskell had good use as a language to know for a career
03:40:35 <ehird> Sgeo: it does, if you start your own company or work for e.g. Galois or Well-Typed
03:40:47 <ehird> if you want to sit in a cubicle following irrational demands from your incompetent boss, sure, it's useless
03:41:20 <Sgeo> ehird, considering that I have no desire to be a manager...
03:41:44 <ehird> sgeo excels at non-sequiturs
03:42:08 <Sgeo> "if you want to sit in a cubicle following irrational demands from your incompetent boss" I'm not exactly going to be running a company any time soon
03:42:23 <ehird> <ehird> Sgeo: it does, if you start your own company or work for e.g. Galois or Well-Typed
03:42:44 <ehird> the latter has absolutely no relation to your line, and the former - you can't exactly "manage" a startup with as many employees as are countable on your hand...
03:42:48 <Sgeo> You imply that Galois and Well-Typed does not have incompetant managers?
03:43:20 <ehird> considering Galois is dons + some people and use Haskell basically exclusively, and Well-Typed is a two-person Haskell consultancy firm, I'd say they're very competent
03:43:46 <Tinned_Tuna> what a useless nugget of info from my equally useless head ;-)
03:43:48 <Sgeo> Chance of me getting a job with Galois or Well-Typed = 0, then
03:43:49 <ehird> So, I'd say that Haskell is only useless for an easy but depressing career.
03:44:05 <ehird> And if you want such a career, why bother souring your programming hobby by association?
03:44:45 <Sgeo> So that on my resume, I can say I am proficient with $lang
03:44:56 <ehird> Non-sequitur yet again.
03:45:20 <ehird> (a) you want a non-soul-crushing programming career, i.e. joining a good company, which gives the possibility to use a language like Haskell, or founding a startup,
03:45:32 <ehird> (b) you want a soul-crushing programming career in a big company in a boring language
03:45:45 <ehird> if (b), then there are plenty similar jobs that don't make you sour your programming hobby by association with your job
03:46:07 <ehird> so any paths leading to "Haskell is totally useless for a career" are simply bad ones
03:46:36 <Tinned_Tuna> I'd say Haskell is useless for some careers
03:46:46 <Sgeo> But how do I gain experience with a language used for (b) without making it part of my hobby programming?
03:47:04 <ehird> Sgeo: you're talking incoherently
03:47:28 <ehird> having a soul-crushing bigcorp job in a boring programming language = you lose the will to program for fun
03:47:50 <ehird> if you don't wish to lose the will to program for run, either go for a decent programming job (= possibility of using Haskell or similar languages) or go for a non-programming job
03:47:56 <ehird> essentially, (b) is the worst imaginable path
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07:21:22 * oerjan looks at the topic and thinks #esoteric keeps sliding towards the other interpretation...
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07:38:12 <zzo38> But I think there is something wrong with the speaker in my computer
07:38:16 <zzo38> I think I dropped the speaker by accident and now it is mixed up?
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07:56:12 * Rugxulo sucks at chess and still beat the Befunge one
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09:27:31 <AnMaster> there is a chess computer in befunge?
09:27:46 <AnMaster> or chess program I guess is a better term here
10:02:00 <fungot> AnMaster: violet's lips moved silently. part of her was certain that the noise was as wrong as ii and ii making v. what shall we do now?' said
10:02:06 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
10:02:19 <fungot> AnMaster: " well, you see, if all a human thinks about is gold, it told his fingers.
10:02:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I fear that style didn't work out too well
10:03:32 <fizzie> Not really. Disoptimal parameters? Maybe I should try retraining with the varikn stuff.
10:06:06 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
10:06:34 <fizzie> No, I mean: http://varikn.forge.pascal-network.org/
10:07:02 <AnMaster> aha, variable gram size model thing
10:07:39 <fizzie> Urrr, the "ct" style I think. But that's not directly comparable, since there was so little ct data.
10:07:53 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
10:07:58 <fungot> AnMaster: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone?! then i'll repair the masamune!
10:08:21 <AnMaster> heh (yeah I have played a bit of that game since)
10:08:52 <AnMaster> fungot, why was it called crisis arm btw?
10:08:52 <fungot> AnMaster: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... are you all right? of course! you were so young! you ran around saying " daddy! the children are going!
10:08:55 <fizzie> The varikn model-trainer is the only one that's in the fungot repository, since I haven't managed to clean up the messy C++ code I used for the other styles.
10:08:55 <fungot> fizzie: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
10:09:21 <fizzie> "and our child, it's ancient history now".
10:09:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, near immortal must have said it
10:10:13 <AnMaster> also even though I played the game to near the end (haven't had time for the final boss yet, but finished all but one side quest)...
10:10:27 <AnMaster> some stuff of course is but...
10:10:39 <AnMaster> maybe fungot messed it up a lot
10:10:39 <fungot> AnMaster: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alon
10:10:43 <fungot> Ans: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place...
10:10:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, was that second one supposed to happen
10:11:12 <fizzie> As in, "no, it was not supposed to happen".
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10:11:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, thought that "An¨¬s¶·Ÿ:" seems like fspace corruption
10:12:17 <fizzie> Yes; it was obviously "AnMaster:" first.
10:12:24 <AnMaster> "we are looking to achieve a shorter life span..."
10:13:02 -!- AnMaster has set topic: #esoteric: <fungot> we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
10:14:25 <fizzie> I'm guessing the later part was from: "That Gate leads to 1999 A.D... It leads to the "Day of Lavos"... Go there only if you're looking to achieve a shorter life span... Lavos will help you leave this mortal coil."
10:14:35 <fizzie> Which is what you get from the "bucket" in end of time.
10:15:17 <AnMaster> sounds like translation failure
10:15:26 <fizzie> No, it's an English idiom.
10:15:29 <AnMaster> oh btw the snes version differs quite a bit in translation from the DS version.
10:15:42 <fizzie> "Derived from 16th Century English, "coil" refers to tumults or troubles. Used idiomatically, the phrase means 'the bustle and turmoil of this mortal life.'"
10:16:07 <fizzie> Yes, it's a new translation; but the SNES version wasn't really a badly broken one either.
10:16:42 <fizzie> "What a beautiful day! The Black Omen sure sparkles in the sun! What a great day for laundry!"
10:17:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, that sounds like the original yeah
10:17:27 <fizzie> I don't know, it's so hilarious it might even be pretty close to the original.
10:17:31 <AnMaster> I didn't get very far in the DS version due to the DS emu I used sucking badly (very very poor framerate)
10:17:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, any traces of how that bug with the bot above might have happened?
10:17:55 <fizzie> The DS-only quests are a bit boring.
10:19:08 <fizzie> Well, there is the raw log, but it's not really that helpful: https://pastee.org/gypyw
10:20:56 <fizzie> I'm guessing the babble-generator wrote somewhere it shouldn't have, but it's pretty hard to reproduce, without a log of the random numbers involved in producing that sentence.
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10:23:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you call the "the"-form of a noun? It's "bestämd form" in Swedish, but I need the English term for it
10:23:39 <AnMaster> and same for the "a"/"an" form
10:24:07 <fizzie> "The" is called the "definite article", while a/an is the "indefinite article"; I'm not sure if it's just directly those for the noun too.
10:24:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, well in Swedish definite article is based on a suffix
10:24:42 <AnMaster> and I need to discuss a Swedish mistranslation in a bug report to a game here
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10:35:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, I wonder if the bug in the bot is reproducible btw
10:35:23 <AnMaster> and/or if it is a cfunge bug. hm
10:35:28 <AnMaster> maybe fungot messed it up a lot
10:35:28 <fungot> AnMaster: in the middle ages, sir slush!... i grow so tired. we can talk. we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
10:36:32 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's a fungot bug, the text generation is pretty messy.
10:36:32 <fungot> fizzie: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch.
10:37:06 <fizzie> fungot: Don't you start threatening me. And what hatch?
10:37:06 <fungot> fizzie: the real queen's safe, right! right. wrong! please return, you will some day! the black wind...
10:37:22 <fizzie> It's like talking to a wall.
10:37:26 <AnMaster> is the text from the snes or DS version?
10:37:33 <fizzie> SNES version, I think.
10:38:16 <fizzie> Could be wrong, though. It was just some fan-transcript from the web; hopefully extracted from the ROM, but I guess it's possible someone did it manually.
10:38:18 <AnMaster> it might be interesting to base it on input. look pick a word in the input phrase and see if found and then start the text generation on that
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10:38:50 <fungot> AnMaster: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch. we must now carry out his sentence. hold your horses! i want to dance! ladeedadeeda! got some spending so much of his time doing research on lavos. but you have it...determination, i mean...
10:39:13 <fungot> AnMaster: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...!
10:39:25 <AnMaster> fungot, stop repeating yourself...
10:39:25 <fungot> AnMaster: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
10:39:46 <fizzie> Yes, it would, but it'd need a reverse mapping from text to tokens, which I don't have.
10:39:57 <AnMaster> fungot, you need to go to an asylum I think...
10:39:57 <fungot> AnMaster: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped!!
10:41:09 <fizzie> That "he's really a tricycle" is pretty hilarious out-of-context like that. (Though the bot overuses it a bit.)
10:42:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the contex t?
10:44:08 <fizzie> It's from one of the endings; the one where Marle and Lucca are watching a slideshows. It's referring to THE MAN! of course.
10:44:55 <fizzie> http://mangahelpers.com/t/shrimpy/releases/12409
10:46:02 <fizzie> Also notable for being probably the only place where Crono says something.
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12:21:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually looking at that raw log from fungot makes it looks like the buffer wasn't properly cleared the first time
12:21:25 <AnMaster> when could it overwrite the buffer with odd chars
12:26:46 <fizzie> Well, I do use some of the input IRC message buffers as temporary storage when they're no longer needed. Nothing should really write to the actual SOCK 'R' buffer, from which it extracts newline-separated IRC messages.
12:27:21 <fizzie> But that's just a "should".
12:29:13 <fizzie> I use line 0 for reading in data; then I copy full newline-terminated messages out of it into line 3, then extract the message parts to lines 4-x (prefix, command, options); the message handlers then reuse line 3 for constructing the reply message, when a reply is needed.
12:32:02 <fizzie> I would guess in most cases I have a constant 'p' offset, or at least a constant Y coordinate, which should make accidentally writing to wrong place pretty unlikely. But there might still be bugs.
12:35:21 <fizzie> Oh well; time for some outdoorsy things. →
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14:34:24 <oerjan> <augur> oklopol! <-- i think i haven't seen him in a while
14:37:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: There is no such thing as iwc </mib>
14:42:19 <oerjan> also, one should never ask kyros rhetorical questions.
14:43:20 <oerjan> that probably goes for several other characters too
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15:42:53 <Deewiant> http://nermal.org/misc/javascript.jpg
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17:27:18 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> http://nermal.org/misc/javascript.jpg <-- huh
17:50:01 <Deewiant> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT1XuB95qMk&fmt=18 + headphones = awesome
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20:45:45 <Rugxulo> why is AnMaster's site always down?
21:03:38 <augur> hes hosting from home and his mom shuts off his computer when he falls asleep X3
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21:14:10 <Rugxulo> Panu should host more files at the Esolang archive (e.g. Bashfunge) so they aren't lost to the ages :-P
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21:58:53 <Sgeo> At least it's not so belated that impomatic had already left
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22:04:37 <Rugxulo> whatcha been messin' with?
22:05:05 <impomatic> Um, not much at the moment. I've been pretty lazy.
22:05:29 <impomatic> Well, I made a new website but that doesn't count as programming.
22:06:22 <Sgeo> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iRnW_PP9RtYpGgoc5KZiwY84hjrQD9AVNJ303
22:15:30 <Rugxulo> Wikipedia is already updated with it, heh
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23:19:55 <Rugxulo> cool link: http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/
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00:01:05 <FireFly> Yup, saw that one a few days ago while looking to see if there already exists any BF interpreter written in Python
00:01:37 <FireFly> I made one which works sans I/O (well, output simply prints all of memory atm)
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02:01:40 <ludamad> !bfjoust Foolz (>-)*8(>[-])*20
02:01:56 <EgoBot> Score for ludamad_Foolz: 14.7
02:03:27 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
02:03:36 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for brainfuck!
02:03:43 <EgoBot> EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null
02:03:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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04:48:08 <Gregor> Hey guys have some sheet music kthx http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.pdf
04:55:30 * Gregor is pretty proud of this insane mess.
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06:23:55 <coppro> Gregor: is this your random music maker?
06:24:28 <Gregor> Yes. The one in my head. Which is not particularly random.
06:25:01 <Gregor> I could, but I refuse to :P
06:25:04 <Gregor> You can have a .ogg if you'd like.
06:25:27 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
06:25:30 * coppro can tell that would take too long for him to work out on a piano and, what's more, he lacks a piano
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06:27:50 <AnMaster> coppro, what then are you typing on?
06:32:46 <Gregor> coppro: So you hypothetically play the piano, minus the whole having one thing?
06:33:05 <Gregor> Seems like everyone "used to" play something.
06:33:32 <coppro> very nice piece, though
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06:34:20 <coppro> (also, it would have been beyond my ability to play back when I did have a piano)
06:35:43 <coppro> I especially like the 12/8 parts
06:36:20 <Gregor> Everybody who I send it to has a different preferred part. This is probably a good thing.
06:38:14 <coppro> just one question - is the 9♪ notation common?
06:38:43 * pikhq suggests that Gregor perform his 11th opus
06:38:56 <Gregor> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/GRegor-op11.ogg
06:38:58 <pikhq> Oh, there's the ogg.
06:40:18 * coppro downloads the rest of them too :)
06:40:21 * pikhq follows along on the sheet music
06:40:27 <Gregor> coppro: I would advise that you do not :P
06:41:34 <pikhq> Gregor has a very low opinion of himself.
06:42:00 <pikhq> The 5th through 8th opuses are wonderful, as is the 10th.
06:42:08 <pikhq> The 9th I've not heard performed well enough to say.
06:42:26 <Gregor> In my head it's quite nice :(
06:42:34 <coppro> yeah, the synth takes something away form it
06:43:16 <Gregor> As it turns out, relatively anonymous computer scientists have a hard time getting quartets to play his pieces :P
06:43:44 <coppro> Surely you can find a better synth
06:44:18 <Gregor> I'd rather find better humans ^^
06:44:30 <coppro> it's not bad enough to be truly spooky, and not good enough to be good :D
06:45:44 <coppro> Gregor: what program do you use?
06:46:05 <Gregor> (And, by proxy, lilypond)
06:46:26 <coppro> any chance I could get the file for 11? I might want to split it into bits
06:46:39 <Gregor> It's linked on http://codu.org/music.php
06:47:45 <Gregor> It's more than a bit wonko though, as I created it with notation in mind.
06:48:02 <Gregor> e.g. it has extra tracks for combining multiple parts in one staff.
06:48:31 <coppro> well, it's just that it would make great atmosphere music, just not the whole thing at once
06:48:54 <coppro> 10 is not terrible; it feels a bit random so far though
06:49:12 <Gregor> MIDIfied it's pretty awful. Could be better, but again, I made it for notation, not MIDI.
06:49:36 <coppro> the banging bits are pretty bad in MIDI; probably sound better with real music
06:50:23 <Gregor> "banging bits" refers specifically to?
06:51:10 <coppro> the quick repetitive chords near the start
06:51:23 <coppro> (that's where the comment about random came from)
06:51:45 <coppro> I like the rest so far
06:51:56 <Gregor> Upon further listening, I really ought to have just cut off the beginning X-D
06:52:28 <coppro> other than that, I prefer 10 to 9
06:54:51 <coppro> the second repetitive bit is much better.
06:55:03 <coppro> (ignore the connotation on repetitive)
06:56:34 <Gregor> Well, anyway, op. 11 is better than op. 10 :P
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06:58:01 <coppro> agree with you there :)
07:01:09 <coppro> You definitely have some compositional talent :)
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07:02:38 <Gregor> My brain, seeing that P* just joined, miscompleted it into pikhq, and I went "wait, he's already here..."
07:02:57 <Gregor> Took my an embarrassing amount of time to realize that the person who had just joined is, in fact, Pthing, and not pikhq at all.
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07:03:11 <Gregor> Mayhaps this is because it's 2AM, and I ought to be asleep.
07:03:46 <Rugxulo> just curious, anybody here program in ETA before?
07:04:33 <coppro> Rugxulo: yes. I'm very familiar with writing programs with an ETA of 100000 years+ :P
07:04:53 <oerjan> i try not to program in terrorist organizations, personally
07:05:27 <Rugxulo> ETA as in the "ETANOSHI" ("Fungal toe!") variety
07:10:21 <oerjan> programming befunge with your feet is not strictly recommended. i guess it's on topic though.
07:11:27 <Rugxulo> although there's an interpreter ;-)
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07:27:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Sleep is highly, highly overrated.
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09:59:22 <ais523> great quote from fungot
09:59:22 <fungot> ais523: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am, are you?! c'mon!!
10:01:12 <ais523> also, looks like I got the first post today
10:01:18 * ais523 is glad that IRC doesn't really work like forums
10:05:01 <ais523> wow, there was a jouster in here yesterday
10:05:04 <ais523> BF Joust needs more love...
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13:37:16 <ais523> hmm... you can learn a lot from flamewars
13:37:26 <ais523> Slashdot is currently in a celsius vs. farenheit flamewar
13:37:40 <ais523> and apparently 0 degrees F has a meaning, which I didn't realise
13:37:47 <ais523> and 100 degrees F was meant to but they messed up
13:40:26 <ais523> <marcosdumay> Kelvin is the standard. That and ed.
13:40:44 <ais523> come to think of it, that's almost exactly the same argument in the two respective flamewars
13:52:41 <Deewiant> I thought it was just the three 0/32/96 points
13:52:53 <ais523> Deewiant: well, the 96 was meant to be 100
13:53:42 <Deewiant> Wikipedia doesn't say so, for what little that's worth
13:54:10 <Deewiant> Just says he originally measured as 96 and this has since been corrected to 98.6
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14:26:49 <ais523> 8x42 is a great resolution
14:27:17 <Gregor> Is that what you've got X at right now?
14:28:19 <ais523> no, it's something ehird used in a hyperbole a few days ago
14:28:44 <ais523> also, when ehird gets online, I'll have to tell him that control-shift-alt-5 does regex replace in Emacs
14:28:54 <ais523> it's a lot shorter to type than the M-x version
14:31:21 <fizzie> And "C-M-%" is a lot shorter to type than "control-shift-alt-5", in addition to working even when your % does not happen to be shift-5.
14:32:20 <ais523> and when your meta happens not to be alt
14:32:38 <ais523> I was more trying to point out what a ridiculous and unintuitive shortcut it was
14:32:45 <ais523> most of Emacs' shortcuts actually make sense, that one doesn't
14:34:23 <ais523> wow, and "vendekabibyte" /still/ has no Google results
14:34:34 <ais523> they need to do a recrawl of the Tunes logs, obviously
14:36:07 <fizzie> It "makes sense" in the sense that it's an extension of the M-% query-replace, but that one doesn't really work for me. I guess you could invent some sort of vague justification on the % glyph, though; something like it being a stylized form of "x/y", standing for "replace x with y".
14:39:33 <AnMaster> (and everyone else too I guess)
14:40:07 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, looks like I got the first post today <-- huh? "08:27:18 <pikhq> Gregor: Sleep is highly, highly overrated."
14:40:19 <ais523> AnMaster: in tunes-log time
14:40:31 <AnMaster> oh. no idea what timezone it may use
14:40:42 <AnMaster> I assumed utc, due to that being the standard in computing
14:40:49 <ais523> it uses one of the US timezones, I think
14:41:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> and apparently 0 degrees F has a meaning, which I didn't realise <-- what meaning?
14:41:49 <ais523> AnMaster: freezing point of saturated saltwater
14:41:57 <ais523> apparently it was set there to make it easy to calibrate thermometers
14:42:13 <ais523> as with the level of technology Farenheit had, saturated saltwater was much easier to come by than distilled water
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15:03:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> and 100 degrees F was meant to but they messed up <-- what is 96 for F then?
15:03:56 <ais523> AnMaster: human body temperature
15:03:56 <ais523> which is an awful thing to base a temperature scale on, as it isn't particularly constant
15:04:16 <AnMaster> <ais523> I was more trying to point out what a ridiculous and unintuitive shortcut it was <-- not really. C-M-% doesn't seem so silly?
15:04:32 <ais523> AnMaster: holding down /three/ modifier keys, then pressing a digit?
15:04:46 <ais523> AnMaster: what other program uses that sort of shortcut?
15:05:20 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. iirc Visual Studio used stuff like C-<something>, release, press another key
15:06:05 <AnMaster> to me those are both equally weird
15:06:06 <ais523> those are less bad, I think
15:06:26 <ais523> you can hold control with the little finger of the left hand and press x and c in a row with the second and third
15:06:33 <ais523> making it an amazingly fast shortcut to type
15:06:38 <ais523> C-M-% needs both hands...
15:06:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't. However it is rather uncomfortable to use only one hand
15:07:29 <AnMaster> thumb on alt. index finger on 5, little finger on ctrl, finger next to little finger on shift
15:07:54 <AnMaster> otherwise alt and 5 on the left hand and ctrl and shift on the right hand
15:08:14 <AnMaster> (due to there being no alt on the right side, only altgr, which is quite different)
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15:20:59 <oerjan> `calc 98.6 fahrenheit in celcius
15:21:01 <HackEgo> Example: convert 98.6o Fahrenheit to Celsius. 98.6 - 32 = 66.6 66.6 * 5/9 = 333/ 9 = 37o C. There is a mental math method to approximate the Fahrenheit to ...
15:21:48 <oerjan> `calc 98.6 fahrenheit in celsius
15:21:48 <HackEgo> 98.6 degrees Fahrenheit = 37 degrees Celsius
15:24:11 <oerjan> <ais523> they need to do a recrawl of the Tunes logs, obviously
15:24:29 <oerjan> i had the impression google doesn't crawl the logs reliably at all
15:25:01 <oerjan> at least i don't find things when searching for them, although some pages are there
15:26:46 <AnMaster> <oerjan> at least i don't find things when searching for them, although some pages are there <-- that is why you instead use grep locally
15:27:17 <oerjan> that would require me to download the logs, though
15:27:40 <AnMaster> plus that lets you search for who said something, quite useful if you know who you were discussing it with but nowhere near when
15:32:40 <oerjan> <AnMaster> I assumed utc, due to that being the standard in computing <-- duh, that would have been far too convenient and rememberable
15:36:34 <FireFly> Afaik the logs uses some Americanish time format?
15:38:08 <oerjan> probably host local time
15:38:39 <FireFly> [16:06:32] <ais523> making it an amazingly fast shortcut to type
15:38:44 <FireFly> What about us poor dvorakians? :<
15:38:56 <ais523> they can remap all their Emacs shortcuts to the same relative places on the keyboards
15:39:03 <ais523> (someone probably was mad enough to do that...)
15:41:00 <AnMaster> well that is true, C-x C-c is fast
15:41:13 <AnMaster> <ais523> (someone probably was mad enough to do that...) <-- pretty sure yes
15:41:29 * ais523 is reading up on the recent Reddit worm
15:41:52 <AnMaster> something like redefining the keys, rather than remapping each individual key. then redefining self insert to insert the key that actually is on the key
15:42:16 <AnMaster> because that way even those in various modes and such were properly remapped
15:43:05 <ais523> yes, that would make sense
15:43:13 <ais523> also, I love the concept of redefining self-insert-command
15:43:25 <ais523> it's sort of, the command that makes Emacs an editor rather than an OS
15:43:54 <oerjan> there's a reddit worm? O_O
15:45:30 <ais523> basically there was an exploit in the parser that let people post arbitrary JS on link mouseover
15:45:46 <ais523> and the JS spammed instances of comments containing such links all over the thread
15:45:49 <ais523> also into people's inboxes
15:46:03 <ais523> so after a while, there were loads of links full of hex all over Reddit
15:47:10 <ais523> kind-of interesting, actually, as you have to write a quine to do that correctly
15:52:44 <ais523> they should have made it so it advanced 1 step in a calculation every time it spread
15:52:53 <ais523> so you could use Reddit worms to do parallel computing via people's browsers
15:52:53 <AnMaster> ais523, how long ago was that?
15:53:06 <ais523> AnMaster: yesterday, apparently
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16:22:00 <AnMaster> /usr/games/bin/gvba: Symbol `_ZTIN3Gtk6WidgetE' has different size in shared object, consider re-linking
16:22:19 <ais523> I haven't seen that error before either
16:22:47 <AnMaster> which is why a source based distro is so much better, relinking is trivial, while on ubuntu it would be a more complex process.
16:23:02 <AnMaster> (of course, since ubuntu isn't rolling release it is less likely to happen)
16:24:17 <AnMaster> it fails in this way after that first message:
16:24:19 <AnMaster> (gvba:2272): glibmm-CRITICAL **: Glib::Interface::Interface(const Glib::Interface_Class&): assertion `gobject_ != 0' failed
16:24:19 <AnMaster> (gvba:2272): glibmm-CRITICAL **: Glib::Interface::Interface(const Glib::Interface_Class&): assertion `gobject_ != 0' failed
16:24:34 <AnMaster> well it was compiled in 2007 says eix
16:33:30 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think about this:
16:33:33 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Software/passivetex/
16:33:33 <AnMaster> Description: A namespace-aware XML parser written in Tex
16:33:47 <ais523> I don't have any opinion; should I have one?
16:33:55 <ais523> ah, just read the description
16:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, that no one sane would write an xml parser *in* TeX
16:34:08 <ais523> well, it's TC, isn't it?
16:34:20 <oerjan> so then, which one of you made it?
16:34:37 <AnMaster> ais523, yes, and it even has console IO iirc
16:38:11 <ais523> oerjan: someone submitted an entry in TeX at the 2008 IOCCC contest
16:38:23 <ais523> which considering it was a real-time routing task, was quite impressive
16:40:21 <FireFly> Meh, if it's TC it's doable :D
16:40:45 <FireFly> Then surely someone must've done BF in TeX
16:41:22 <oerjan> ais523: um don't those have to be in C?
16:41:39 <ais523> why? there were lots of entries in other langs
16:41:47 <ais523> mine was in C because it looked like the best lang for the job
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16:42:19 <oerjan> are you sure this is IO_C_CC ?
16:43:16 <oerjan> although with a TeX entry it sounds like someone else was confused...
16:58:21 <ais523> even more fun, it won the judges' prize
17:16:18 <ais523> <zzo38> Well, one thing works, when I search "internet protocol", manually type in the names of the protocols, and add a "port number" column, it gives the correct answers. But "color" for HTTP gives a URL, and "Command" for "HTTP" is "yes"
17:16:25 <ais523> now I want a version of yes that works over the web
17:16:58 <ais523> <Sgeo_> Should I learn emacs, or vi? <--- ouch DO NOT ASK THAT QUESTION ANYWHERE
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18:09:58 <AnMaster> <ais523> <Sgeo_> Should I learn emacs, or vi? <--- ouch DO NOT ASK THAT QUESTION ANYWHERE <-- why not? The answer is obviously emacs anyway.
18:10:20 <ais523> AnMaster: flamewars are bad
18:10:37 <ais523> and it's one of the easiest ways to incite a flamewar in channels with a high percentage of Unixy people
18:10:50 <ais523> I suppose you might get away with it on support.microsoft.com or somewhere highly Windows-centric like that
18:10:56 <ais523> but even then, you'd get a bit of one I suspect
18:11:58 <fizzie> Gah, I hate the karma thing; I mentioned offhand yesterday in a conversation that's this new three-monitor setup is nice; today the biggest and newest monitor (the 24" 1920x1200 one) of the three went and completely died.
18:12:00 <AnMaster> ais523, on support.microsoft.com you should ask about notepad vs. wordpad I guess
18:12:19 <ais523> fizzie: is it under warranty?
18:12:30 <ais523> AnMaster: just no, they're both awful
18:12:46 <ais523> besides, they'll recommend Visual Studio
18:13:05 <ais523> which is apparently decent for Windows development, even though I've known it to take over 10 minutes to load
18:13:13 <AnMaster> ais523, anything you *could* make a flameward about on support.microsoft.com (is that a forum or something?)
18:13:23 <AnMaster> ais523, 10 minutes? what sort of computer
18:13:25 <ais523> I think it has a forum, although it isn't a forum itself
18:13:28 <fizzie> As far as I can figure out, it should be; bought April 2008, and should be three years. Though I'm not quite sure what they'll do since the actual model is discontinued, and the newer ones seem very focused on the 16:9 1080-line things.
18:13:33 <ais523> and quite a powerful one, it was doing stuff over the network though
18:13:38 <fizzie> Anyway, ais's warranty question was here before AnMaster's.
18:14:09 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's not completely dead: the USB hub still works. It's just that a two-port USB hub the shape of a 24" TFT is still not especially useful.)
18:14:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, two second difference here :/
18:14:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, won't they have to replace it with a comparable product?
18:14:46 <AnMaster> and any screen is better than a dead one
18:15:12 <fizzie> I guess they will, but their view might be that a new 1920x1080 screen is "comparable" to a 1920x1200 one. But it doesn't work in this multihead setup as well.
18:15:55 <fizzie> Well, we'll see. Oh, and the chain has closed their nearby stores, too.
18:16:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, well you will have to tell them that you need same hight due to using it in a "professional work-critical multi display setup" or something
18:17:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, you get the basic idea anyway, refine it as required
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20:43:19 <AnMaster> does backspace after ∉ change it into a ∈ for you?
20:43:32 <AnMaster> any idea why? because selecting with arrow selects the whole thing
20:43:53 <fizzie> Yes, it does; and it's probably made out of a composed character.
20:44:16 <fizzie> You know, ∈ and the compositing /. Those work a bit confusingly sometimes, w.r.t. selection and backspace.
20:44:45 <fizzie> Not composing. Although I guess you could say it like that too.
20:45:15 <fizzie> That's a custom character; there's not really a / that'd apply to a part of the character.
20:45:59 <fizzie> Actually, I don't really know. If I copy the U+2209 not-an-element-of, ∉, directly, the backspace still removes the slash from it.
20:46:13 <fizzie> I guess something's doing some normalization somewhere, but I'm not quite sure who's responsible.
20:46:38 <coppro> Unicode characters are working badly on this computer
20:47:04 <coppro> every line with a Unicode character has something like 4x the line height
20:47:17 <fizzie> The same thing happens with "does not divide" and "not parallel to" characters; ∤ and ∦. For those backspace here also removes the slash, even though those really aren't made out of the combining slash.
20:48:06 <coppro> fizzie: I don't experience any of that normalization behavior in CZ, but I have noticed that with combining characters in the past
20:48:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about the curly i for imaginary unit
20:49:01 <fizzie> Those all do have a "canonical decomposition" entry in the Unicode database (for the base character + combining long solidus overlay), so if you were to apply that decomposition you'd get that sort of backspace behaviour. Still, it's a bit strange.
20:49:25 <fizzie> I should probably look at the raw log and see if it sends out the decomposited form to IRC, or just the character itself.
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20:50:05 <fizzie> I'm not sure what sort of curly imaginary unit there is; do you mean ℑ, which is often used to mean "take the imaginary part of something"?
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20:54:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I mean like the i but rendered as in http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/9/d/79d8d2ba30e45d4a35d3f6c1fed419ba.png
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20:56:16 <fizzie> Yes, I don't think there's a special symbol; they couldn't really start providing italic forms for everything. The "letterlike symbols" contains generally things that are more... symbol-like.
20:57:06 <fizzie> Admittedly there's ℹ but that's the "information source" symbol, meant to be used with the combining enclosing circle: ℹ⃝
20:57:45 <ehird> that's just a small serifed i for me.
20:57:50 <ehird> not really italic at all...
20:58:10 <fizzie> But seems I was wrong: there's a whole "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" block.
20:58:14 <fizzie> It's outside BMP, but it's there.
20:58:29 <fizzie> So you can use the U+1d456 mathematic italic small i: 𝑖
20:59:47 <fizzie> There's bold, italic, bold italic, script, "bold fraktur", sans-serif, sans-serif bold, sans-serif italic, sans-serif bold italic and monospace variants of all of [A-Za-z].
21:00:34 <ehird> that's totally bad-ass.
21:00:38 <fizzie> Er, and also for [Α-Ωα-ω0-9].
21:00:40 <ehird> I'm naming my kid that
21:00:57 <fizzie> You're going to be a father?! Congratulations!
21:01:21 <ehird> a father of a bold fraktur... IN YOUR SKULL
21:01:51 <coppro> those Greek letters didn't screw with the line spacing
21:01:59 <ehird> nor did your mother.
21:02:22 <coppro> you know, those are neither funny nor good insults
21:02:23 <fizzie> 𝔗𝔥𝔢𝔰𝔢 𝔞𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔣𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔶𝔪𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔰. (If your font has them.)
21:02:43 <coppro> so if I spin them around they read the same?
21:02:46 <ehird> that looks awesome fizzie
21:03:10 <ehird> i'm going to type in that
21:03:21 <fizzie> It certainly looks very 𝔞𝔲𝔱𝔥𝔬𝔯𝔦𝔱𝔞𝔱𝔦𝔳𝔢.
21:03:22 <Deewiant> Please don't; I lack the fonts
21:03:45 <ehird> Deewiant: it looks *awesome*
21:03:50 <ehird> fizzie: codepoints?
21:04:01 <fizzie> ehird: U+1d51e onwards.
21:04:15 <Asztal> Here it adds a lot of vertical padding to the line.
21:04:16 <Deewiant> Rather, it I lack the monospaced fonts
21:04:24 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, they renamed the Software Store to Software Center
21:05:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Admittedly there's ℹ but that's the "information source" symbol, meant to be used with the combining enclosing circle: ℹ⃝ <-- no circle here
21:05:50 <coppro> Is there a better Windows X server than Xming, out of curiosity?
21:05:52 <fizzie> Deewiant: Looks like this in XChat to me, though that's really pretty small: http://zem.fi/~fis/florb.png
21:06:23 <Deewiant> Your XChat falls back to non-monospaced fonts, I see
21:06:31 <ehird> coppro: nope, why?
21:06:36 <ehird> coppro: using colinux?
21:06:47 <Deewiant> Looks quite similar for me in firefox
21:06:57 <coppro> not colinux, just a regular VM
21:07:07 <ehird> you should try colinux, it looks cool.
21:07:14 <ehird> Xming is the best, though
21:07:17 <ehird> What's wrong with it?
21:07:30 <coppro> nothing, just wondering if I was running a suboptimal variant
21:07:44 <fizzie> I haven't tried the new versions of anything, but Xming used to beat WinaXe, at least.
21:08:06 <coppro> running an X server on Windows >>>>> using a DE in the VM
21:08:30 <coppro> this alone is why X beats native windowing technologies
21:09:35 <fizzie> Cygwin's X server was popular among the 3D graphics course people, since it correctly did stencil-buffer in remote-opengl. (The official "has to run on this" platform was FreeBSD, and all the Windows users wanted to test their homework remotely.)
21:09:44 <AnMaster> <fizzie> 𝔗𝔥𝔢𝔰𝔢 𝔞𝔯𝔢 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔣𝔯𝔞𝔨𝔱𝔲𝔯 𝔰𝔶𝔪𝔟𝔬𝔩𝔰. (If your font has them.) <-- ARGH dejavu doesn't!
21:10:00 <fizzie> I don't really know where my xchat picks those up.
21:10:12 <coppro> Or you have a client that correctly falls back to fonts with symbols when they aren't available in the current one
21:10:13 <fizzie> Could even be the Mathematica fonts.
21:10:13 <ehird> My font appears identical to fizzie's.
21:10:20 <ehird> I don't have Mathematica.
21:10:22 <coppro> I have them here on Windows
21:10:35 <fizzie> I don't have Mathematica either, I just have the ttf-mathematica package.
21:10:52 <ehird> I don't think I do.
21:11:10 <coppro> and while I haven't been the only person to install software on it, I can't imagine anyone installed anything with a fraktur font
21:12:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, I checked all installed fonts, none have them
21:12:34 <AnMaster> not even fonts I got from an OS X computer
21:13:10 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I don't have Mathematica either, I just have the ttf-mathematica package. <-- is that in ubuntu?
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21:13:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Stock Ubuntu install has it.
21:13:59 <ehird> Or, well, maybe not.
21:14:01 <Asztal> http://imgur.com/XV6EK.png <- firefox does this too.
21:14:02 <ehird> Install ttf-liberation.
21:14:14 <ehird> Or liberation-ttf, rather.
21:14:27 <coppro> Asztal: yeah, that's what I'm seeing. It's weird
21:14:32 <ehird> AnMaster: sudo apt-get install ttf-liberation
21:14:36 <ehird> sudo apt-get install ttf-droid
21:14:38 <ehird> but it's probably liberation
21:14:40 <coppro> I think it's to do with the font being used, not the symbols
21:14:54 <ehird> Come to think of it, it's probably Liberation
21:14:56 <coppro> since the symbols that TNR displays correctly are not causing that to happen
21:15:14 <ehird> it's quite full and type-like, which is more of a Liberation feature than DejaVu
21:15:14 <coppro> Unifont should expand onto the other planes
21:15:17 <AnMaster> ehird, apt-get claims already installed
21:15:29 <ehird> anyone know how to list all installed packages?
21:15:33 <ehird> I'll grep ttf- to see which I have
21:15:40 <fizzie> The Mathematica fonts are non-free, I would say.
21:16:02 <coppro> ehird: dpkg --get-selections | grep installed
21:16:20 <fizzie> Heh, I've just been using "dpkg-query -l | grep ^i".
21:16:37 <ehird> I'll go with dpkg0query
21:16:44 <coppro> get-selections can filter by pattern too
21:16:45 <ehird> AnMaster: do you have ttf-mscorefonts-installer?
21:16:52 <ehird> if coppro has them on Windows, then...
21:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, no I don't have that one
21:17:19 <coppro> AnMaster: isn't that just an alias for dpkg-query?
21:17:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, install it; it'll get you Arial, Verdana, Georgia etc.
21:17:30 <coppro> Just get msttcorefonts
21:17:30 <AnMaster> coppro, maybe. I'm really not an ubuntu user
21:17:33 <ehird> And almost certainly the bold frakturs.
21:17:35 <ehird> coppro: same package
21:17:36 <fizzie> "dpkg --list" lists also non-purged not-installed things. (Like "dpkg-query -l".)
21:17:57 <ehird> AnMaster: but yeah, "sudo apt-get install msttcorefonts" should do it
21:17:58 <coppro> ugh, moving back and forth between a ThinkPad and other computer is highly annoying
21:18:16 <ehird> This package exists to facilitate upgrades to ttf-mscorefonts-installer.
21:18:16 <ehird> It can safely be removed from your system.
21:18:25 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, install ttf-mscorefonts-installer instead
21:18:35 <fizzie> I have mathematica-fonts, ttf-jsmath and xfonts-mathml all installed, I think any of those might have them too.
21:18:40 <ehird> coppro: so stop using non-thinkpad computers :P
21:18:45 <ehird> fizzie: your screenshot is identical to the text here
21:18:46 <coppro> on ThinkPads it's not the bottom-left key; that's the Fn key
21:18:48 <ehird> so it must be one I have installed
21:18:51 <ehird> coppro: yes, I know
21:19:38 <ehird> coppro: the modifier keys are small since the T43 because of the windows key; are you making any errors?
21:19:38 <ehird> since I'm getting one...
21:20:03 <fizzie> Well, do you happen to have xfonts-mathml? (Iceweasel/firefox suggests that -- and latex-xft-fonts, which is another possibility -- though does not really depend on it.)
21:20:18 <coppro> ehird: Not other than mixing the Ctrl and Fn up
21:21:30 <ehird> coppro: aren't the alt/windows keys upsettingly small?
21:21:44 <coppro> small, but not upsettingly so
21:21:47 <ehird> fizzie: I forget how to check if I have it.
21:22:04 <ehird> coppro: I'm intending to use it as my only computer, so if it's at all annoying I guess I'll replace the keyboard with the T43s
21:22:04 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I have mathematica-fonts, ttf-jsmath and xfonts-mathml all installed, I think any of those might have them too. <-- first one is not found as ubuntu package as far as I can tell...?
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21:22:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not that, I don't have it
21:23:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's in debian/non-free, I'm not sure what that would translate in Ubuntu, if anything. Maybe not.
21:23:25 <ehird> <fizzie> ehird: U+1d51e onwards.
21:24:15 <fizzie> 1D51E;MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL A;Ll;0;L;<font> 0061;;;;N;;;;;
21:24:15 <AnMaster> great, trying to paste it into oowriter crashed oowriter
21:24:27 <ehird> >>> print u'\u1D51E'.encode('utf-8')
21:25:06 <fizzie> Isn't that \u for four-character hex constants?
21:25:07 <coppro> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf
21:25:19 <fizzie> print u'\U0001D51E'.encode('utf-8') instead.
21:25:23 <AnMaster> ehird, no luck with mscorefonts
21:25:26 <coppro> U+1D56C is the first one
21:25:29 <AnMaster> tried all the fonts on the text in openoffice
21:25:32 <ehird> AnMaster: sudo apt-get install ttf-*
21:25:41 <ehird> also, openoffice is teh sux
21:25:41 <fizzie> coppro: I jumped directly to small letters, yes.
21:25:53 <AnMaster> and I don't know where else to try fonts
21:26:07 <fizzie> coppro: Oh, and just the "fraktur" font, not "bold fraktur".
21:26:17 <ehird> The only fraktur is BOLD.
21:26:25 * coppro is irritated at KDE's lack of UTF-32 support
21:26:28 <coppro> no, there is non-bold fraktur
21:26:39 <fizzie> I guess I should've said 1D56C indeed, since ehird explicitly specified the BOLD one.
21:26:57 <ehird> coppro: I DO NOT RECOGNIZE THEM
21:27:02 <coppro> ehird: actually, it would be more accurate for me to say 'multiplanar support'
21:27:22 * ehird realises that writing a script to translate text to bold fraktur would be work; gives up
21:27:25 <coppro> KDE has a fit at anything past U+FFFF
21:28:01 <fizzie> And I actually accidentally used fraktur (instead of bold fraktur) in the bits I spoke here; they're really quite similar.
21:28:16 <ehird> fizzie: oh. i recognize bold fraktur then
21:28:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: "mathematical alphanumeric symbols", didn't I mention the name up there?
21:29:23 <fizzie> Also I forgot to list plain fraktur and the double-struck font variant in that list of what the block has.
21:29:46 <AnMaster> ehird, no font in the char map has it
21:29:54 <AnMaster> tell me which one you claim has it
21:30:38 <fizzie> 𝔑𝔬𝔯𝔪𝔞𝔩 and 𝖇𝖔𝖑𝖉 𝖋𝔣𝖗𝔯𝖆𝔞𝖐𝔨𝖙𝔱𝖚𝔲𝖗𝔯, side by side here.
21:30:52 <fizzie> Not such a huge difference.
21:32:25 <ehird> One of them looks bold.
21:32:36 <coppro> Not visibly so on here
21:33:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> sudo apt-get install ttf-droid <-- nor that
21:33:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Just install every font ever!
21:33:48 <AnMaster> ehird, that's like 138 packages
21:33:57 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what ones you have installed
21:34:37 <ehird> ttf-freefont, perhaps?
21:34:50 <ehird> ttf-opensymbol? ttf-dejavu-extra?
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21:35:29 <AnMaster> ehird, check in your char map?
21:35:34 <fizzie> Finding out which font the characters come shouldn't be this hard; I copy-pasted that stuff to openoffice, exported as PDF, ran through ghostscript with the gazillion "embed all fonts" flags, and the result was a .pdf that displays correctly all right, but "pdffonts" lists just TimesNewRomanPSMT and FreeSerif, which don't sound likely candidates.
21:35:55 <ehird> = ttf-freefont, prolly
21:36:12 <AnMaster> ehird, can you verify freeserif has them there
21:36:24 <AnMaster> since according to the char map it doesn't here
21:36:33 <AnMaster> in case you are using karmic or something
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21:36:57 <ehird> Character map agreed. Upgrade to Karmic then.
21:37:08 <ehird> Jerry: who are you.
21:37:08 <AnMaster> ehird, karmic was buggy last I tried it
21:37:22 <AnMaster> so I'll upgrade once it stabilised a bit
21:37:23 <coppro> Karmic doesn't have ext4 bugs; is therefore >>> Jaunty
21:37:39 <ehird> Karmic is only buggy if you use the messaging menu. :P
21:37:51 <ehird> it might be a UI bug
21:38:07 <coppro> AnMaster: the kernel sometimes locks up when deleting ext4 files on Jaunty
21:38:34 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise.
21:38:35 <AnMaster> coppro, odd, never had such problems and I do use ext4
21:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, the fact that it networkmanager segfaulted put me off
21:39:14 <coppro> yeah, they only manifested for me after a while of using Jaunty
21:39:14 <fizzie> Frigging font substitution thing is annoying. I don't really think gucharmap can tell where the fonts come from, since the character selection thing seems to only affect things when there are multiple sources. No matter what font I select, I get the same mathematical symbols.
21:39:25 <coppro> at least gucharmap > kcharselect
21:39:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Jaunty segfaults sometimes too...
21:40:11 <AnMaster> ehird, networkmanager? not here
21:40:16 <ehird> In general, I mean.
21:40:16 <ehird> But indeed, Karmic is unpolished, especially if you upgrade from Jaunty.
21:40:31 <AnMaster> ehird, because it was "didn't even start at all, so was unable to reach network"
21:40:49 <AnMaster> was some open bug about it already
21:41:13 <AnMaster> ehird, so I'm waiting for karmic to become stable before I even think about upgrading
21:41:49 <coppro> btw, I'm not kidding about OO.o on KDE. My bug was entitled "KDE file dialog is utterly broken" and no one has debated the appropriateness of the name;
21:41:51 <fizzie> Okay, one font that definitely *has* those symbols is "eufm10" (from the ttf-lyx package), but it's another thing altogether whether it just contains the ascii range in that font, or also that Unicode "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" range mapped.
21:42:27 <ehird> If I didn't expect shitty software to segfault and leave me to fix it I wouldn't be running Linux
21:43:08 * coppro has not seen a noticeable segfault problem on Karmic Koala Kubuntu (sorry)
21:44:00 <ehird> Medibuntu Masturbating Monkey.
21:44:16 <fizzie> Eh, I'll just install fontforge, at least that should be able to definitely tell me what a font contains.
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21:48:30 <fizzie> Nice messages in the terminal:
21:48:31 <fizzie> Help! Server claimed font
21:48:31 <fizzie> -dejavu-dejavu serif-bold-o-normal--13-0-0-0-p-0-iso8859-1
21:48:31 <fizzie> existed in the font list, but when I asked for it there was nothing.
21:49:31 <ehird> "I may crash soon." :D
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21:52:08 <ehird> <fungot> we must now carry out his sentence
21:52:08 <fungot> ehird: but, we are far outnumbered!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle!
21:52:11 <ehird> I read that as "this sentence"
21:52:15 <ehird> which was wonderfully hofstadterian
22:00:38 <fizzie> Bleh. I ran find /usr/share/fonts -iname '*.ttf' and applied the result to a script that used "fontimage --text" to write something with bold fraktur in it; the end result was that in *all* fonts I got just boxes. Either it's a font not there, a font not .ttf, or something's clever enough to substitute those Unicode chars from different codepoints in a math font, which sounds unlikely.
22:00:45 <fizzie> Musts do other things now. →
22:05:23 <ehird> It surely is .ttf...
22:05:39 <ehird> Oh, I also have Humor Sans in ~/.fonts, but I highly doubt it's that.
22:05:48 <ehird> (http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2009/03/xkcdsucks-is-proud-to-present-humor.html)
22:06:53 <ehird> I'm not sure about that part.
22:07:54 <coppro> using different samples for caps and lowercase is a nice touch
22:14:30 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Okay, one font that definitely *has* those symbols is "eufm10" (from the ttf-lyx package), but it's another thing altogether whether it just contains the ascii range in that font, or also that Unicode "mathematical alphanumeric symbols" range mapped. <-- no tty-lyx here
22:14:59 <AnMaster> as in, apt-cache says it doesn't exist
22:15:21 <coppro> so, you know how you should never believe computer manufacturer's claims about battery life of computers?
22:15:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: ttf-lyx is not tty-lyx.
22:15:52 <coppro> turns out that if I leave my new computer idle, it has more than 5 hours battery life O_o
22:16:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, err ttf was what I wrote in ther terminal
22:16:07 <ehird> coppro: that's not much life for idling really.
22:16:27 <AnMaster> Reading state information... Done
22:16:27 <AnMaster> E: Couldn't find package ttf-lyx
22:16:32 <coppro> I could easily drop it
22:16:37 <coppro> turn off wireless card, dim screen, etc.
22:16:52 <coppro> but it's a lot for my experience
22:17:02 <coppro> err, yeah. Meant drop consumption
22:17:02 <ehird> yes, but nobody idles a computer for 5 hours
22:17:22 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Bleh. I ran find /usr/share/fonts -iname '*.ttf' and applied the result to a script that used "fontimage --text" to write something with bold fraktur in it; the end result was that in *all* fonts I got just boxes. Either it's a font not there, a font not .ttf, or something's clever enough to substitute those Unicode chars from different codepoints in a math font, which sounds unlikely. <-- mi
22:17:48 <fizzie> I don't think so, there's no trouble changing the size.
22:18:23 <fizzie> Anyway, it seems that "ttf-lyx" is in Ubuntu indeed, but only in karmic, not in jaunty.
22:18:34 <fizzie> Though I can't be sure that's what the characters come from.
22:18:50 <fizzie> Esp. if ehird doesn't happen to have that font installed.
22:19:12 <coppro> Let's call it the Magic Fallback Font
22:19:27 <coppro> although it could just be Pango shenanigans
22:20:12 <AnMaster> like how all the blackboard bold math ones in there are the same for almost all fonts
22:20:19 <AnMaster> according to the gucharmap thing
22:20:24 <fizzie> FWIW, here's what font-related packages I have installed; at least those with sensible names (i.e. ttf or font in the name): https://pastee.org/53k6b
22:20:25 <coppro> out of curiosity, is there one of a) a C++ inteface to Pango b) a mechanism to use Pango with SDL?
22:20:49 <coppro> AnMaster: gucharmap uses fallback fonts; so if one font on your system has it, it will be used for all fonts that don't
22:21:15 <AnMaster> coppro, that is rather irritating if you wish to check what fonts have it
22:21:32 <fizzie> There's a SDL_Pango project, I think. Don't know if it's actually used or works or developed or recent or anything.
22:22:01 <coppro> KCharSelect doesn't, but it sucks in other ways
22:22:07 <coppro> such as not having the SMP
22:23:43 <ehird> I don't have ttf-lyx.
22:25:57 <AnMaster> hm there is ttf-mathematica4.1
22:26:07 <fizzie> Hey, I found a relatively nice font-manager which can view mapped glyphs for a font.
22:26:09 <AnMaster> except that tries to download from wolfram and gets a 404
22:26:46 <coppro> fizzie: now that I think of it, you could probably hack something together using Pango
22:28:05 <fizzie> It's still just a "examine one font at a time" solution, though; I can't seem to find a "enter a glyph, find all fonts providing it" feature.
22:29:48 <coppro> fizzie: no, I'm saying automate it by having Pango check to see if the font has the character
22:30:01 <fizzie> Yes, yes, you go do that. :p
22:30:41 * coppro has coded in Pango once before... and forgotten it, pretty much
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22:41:35 <fizzie> There's a "find a font by raster image" function, but it fails. Also browsing through sample texts didn't really help.
22:42:28 <fizzie> About the only thing the program told me is that it isn't ttf-lyx, because the eufm10 font in ttf-lyx has different-looking glyphs for those characters.
22:47:17 <coppro> oh, gtkmm has a pangomm library
22:48:48 <AnMaster> <fizzie> There's a "find a font by raster image" function, but it fails. Also browsing through sample texts didn't really help. <-- what app?
22:51:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, if the gucharmap shows the symbol you can right click it and see what font it is really from
22:51:50 <fizzie> I *so* didn't know that.
22:51:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, just found out by mistake
22:52:00 <fizzie> And it is from FreeSerif indeed.
22:52:30 <fizzie> I should've just trusted the "pdffonts" output from the oowriter-generated PDF.
22:52:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, but at the correct code point?
22:52:59 <AnMaster> oh and all my blackboard bold are from dejavu sans or dejavu serif
22:53:09 <coppro> fizzie: pango_font_get_coverage could be used on each font in succession
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22:53:21 <fizzie> Wellll, how should I know? All I know is that when I right-click one of the fraktur/bold fraktur fonts in gucharmap, it says "FreeSerif" down there.
22:53:56 <coppro> fizzie: it took me two minutes to look up. It would probably take me 5 minutes to hack together a program to check a font for a character
22:54:26 <fizzie> coppro: I'm not sure how useful that is now, when it turns out gucharmap can tell where the one it displays comes from.
22:54:32 <fizzie> But sure, if you *want* to make one.
22:55:28 <fizzie> And for the reference, my FreeSerif font is from the ttf-freefont package, version 20090104-4.
22:56:46 <fizzie> Phew, this was far too difficult.
22:56:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, I prefer mostly stable jaunty
22:57:50 <fizzie> Then you'll miss out on the fraktur fun. Though I don't think it's that widely used in IRC.
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22:58:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, strange fonts: ttf-junicode
22:59:07 <AnMaster> "Description: a Unicode font for medievalists (Latin, IPA and Runic)"
22:59:15 <AnMaster> I didn't know "medievalists" was even a word
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23:00:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what was the package for "get evince to integrate into firefox"?
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23:10:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, your system is called "eris"?
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23:50:34 <fizzie> Yes; i've gone Greek for the names here nowadays; I have eris, iris, momus, hermes, thalia, antheia, styx, charon, dionysus, tartarus, and maybe something I've forgotten already. They all have some sort of point, though they are a bit far-fetched.
23:50:52 <coppro> fizzie: can you please send a fraktur character to the channel?
23:55:29 <Ilari> coppro: Like "MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR CAPITAL A"? Unfortunately, that caracter doesn't seem to want to copy'n'paste here...
23:55:37 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, what was the package for "get evince to integrate into firefox"?
23:55:47 <ehird> mozplugger; don't bother, it's very buggy
23:55:53 <ehird> it also absorbs all keystrokes
23:55:57 <ehird> can't go back or close tab without using the mouse
23:57:18 <ehird> uh, most of them let you ctrl-w at least
23:57:22 <ehird> or am I spoilt by Safari's plugins, which let you?
23:57:39 <ehird> all pdf plugins are so misguided, because they're not identical to Safari's.
00:42:50 <ehird> it'd be sweet if xjump had online multiplayer.
00:42:55 <ehird> and you could knock each other waway
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01:05:39 <ehird> http://jwz.livejournal.com/1096401.html?thread=20365265#t20365265 jwz: OOH, DRAMA
01:17:58 <pikhq> I would like to take this opportunity to note that US politics is freaking insane. Like, really, "belongs in an asylum".
01:23:24 <ehird> gee I wasn't aware
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01:33:48 <ehird> "(Please do not thank me - I find it scary)" --the internets
01:48:14 <ehird> 15:19:55 <Rugxulo> cool link: http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/
01:48:22 <ehird> huh, shinh has a real website
01:51:54 <ehird> 06:28:44 <ais523> also, when ehird gets online, I'll have to tell him that control-shift-alt-5 does regex replace in Emacs
01:52:09 <ehird> the stereotype, it hurts
01:54:09 <ehird> 07:04:32 <ais523> AnMaster: holding down /three/ modifier keys, then pressing a digit?
01:54:10 <ehird> 07:04:38 <AnMaster> ais523, yes and?
01:55:50 <ehird> 08:22:47 <AnMaster> which is why a source based distro is so much better, relinking is trivial, while on ubuntu it would be a more complex process.
01:56:02 <ehird> source based distros are good because if the distro is horribly broken you can perform major surgery on it easier?
01:56:05 <ehird> fuck, you convinced me
01:56:10 <ehird> sign me up for the 5 hour compile times
01:57:19 <ehird> 10:12:00 <AnMaster> ais523, on support.microsoft.com you should ask about notepad vs. wordpad I guess
01:57:19 <ehird> 10:12:30 <ais523> AnMaster: just no, they're both awful
01:57:21 <ehird> what's wrong with notepad
01:57:54 <ehird> 10:14:09 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's not completely dead: the USB hub still works. It's just that a two-port USB hub the shape of a 24" TFT is still not especially useful.)
01:57:54 <ehird> cool novelty item.
01:58:20 <ehird> 10:17:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, you get the basic idea anyway, refine it as required
01:58:30 <ehird> "Also failing at the same time was (a) hookers, (b) blackjack. These items are required."
01:59:15 <ehird> and so i finish logreading.
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02:07:47 <ehird> no i won't have sex with you
02:08:08 <ehird> I didn't author that
02:08:25 <augur> so you are having sex with me
02:08:37 <ehird> since you're so persuasive
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02:11:31 <augur> so my latest torture
02:11:43 <augur> in this horrible adventure that is the Italian Dialectology DB
02:11:59 <augur> the server will not report any fucking errors regardless of error reporting levels.
02:12:05 <augur> and regardless of how egregious the errors truly are
02:13:59 <ehird> Italian Dialectology DB Fuck Shit Damn Whore.
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04:08:51 <Gregor> <ehird> I didn't author that
04:10:27 <Gregor> I read over the typo flawlessly :P
04:10:34 <ehird> flawless... failure?
04:10:54 <Gregor> So is that how we say "hello" now?
04:11:01 <Gregor> No I won't have sex with you.
04:11:22 <ehird> sorry to see you leaving so soon, Gregor. was it something I said?
04:11:24 <Gregor> You ruined the flow of my other "hi" :P
04:11:33 <ehird> FLAWLESS TRAINWRECK
04:11:46 <Gregor> Under some set of conditions it's possible I'd have sex with you, but you don't get to know what those are.
04:12:10 <ehird> who doesn't want a fuddlepup?!
04:12:56 <pikhq> Someone made of ANTIMATTER, that's who.
04:13:19 <Slereah> He would want an antifuddlepup
04:13:20 <coppro> Antimatter is an AWESOME power
04:13:30 <coppro> like, I'd say it's better than Void
04:13:34 <ehird> antimatter doesn't matter bitch ass fuck attundal what
04:13:35 <Gregor> No, I won't have sex with you.
04:13:45 <Gregor> No I won't have sex with you.Bye coppro.
04:13:47 <pikhq> Gregor: Interesega.
04:13:48 <Gregor> Whoops, messed that one up :P
04:13:49 <Slereah> I'd like one day to see a super hero with the power to control the strong interaction
04:13:52 <ehird> I don't think it's legal to do that to walruses.
04:13:54 <Slereah> Now there's a powerful power
04:13:54 <ehird> Jesus christ, eww.
04:13:57 <ehird> What the fuck is wrong with you?
04:13:59 <coppro> Gregor: you'd have sex with ehird but not me? :(
04:14:07 <ehird> coppro: you're way too old.
04:14:07 <coppro> (not that I'm interested, but still)
04:14:15 <Gregor> coppro: No, @ehird was "No I won't have sex with you" :P
04:14:22 <ehird> <Gregor> :pedobear:
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04:14:46 <pikhq> "I will make your atoms cease to be. *bam*"
04:14:51 <ehird> i'll uh, change the laws of your bitching physics?
04:14:59 <Gregor> No I won't have sex with you.
04:15:07 <Slereah> Come on, he could DISASSEMBLE the fuck out of you
04:15:28 <Slereah> Send parton jets in your fucking face
04:17:28 <ehird> can he rip apart my fucking quarks
04:17:42 <Gregor> The quarks used for fucking.
04:17:52 <ehird> no, those are my fucking fucking quarks
04:18:26 <Gregor> And your fucking fucking fucking quarks are for fucking the abstract idea of fucking?
04:18:48 <ehird> my fucking fucking fucking fucking quarks are just shut the fuck up
04:19:12 <oerjan> #esoteric, the sex channel
04:19:31 <Gregor> So speaking of deer, ...
04:20:20 -!- ehird has set topic: find the fun in sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell.
04:20:23 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell.
04:22:17 * oerjan distinctly thought #esoteric was usually prepended to the topic somehow anyway. he guesses it depends on client though.
04:23:11 <ehird> it was a chanserv thingy
04:23:12 <ehird> i just meant "what" at my topi
04:23:35 -!- Gregor has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in deer/sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell.
04:24:29 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric, find the fun in deer/sex and have a happy hour of brainfucking in the skies where the http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D dwell also sex buggery what's his name? i wonder what his name is because he always does that thing, that thing, you know.
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05:48:00 <ehird> I wonder why we still have window titles
05:48:06 <ehird> does anyone actually look at the title inside the window?
05:48:17 <ehird> or the little window icon? should just put the menu there.
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06:28:20 <coppro> weird. My biggest complaint about this computer is something that the reviewers liked
06:28:47 <coppro> the screen's viewing angles
06:29:07 <coppro> there's a sort of bright bar when you're viewing it straight-on, and you can't get it to be uniform
06:29:16 <ehird_> yeah, that's called shitty TN screens for you
06:29:22 <ehird_> should have got a T60 IPS screen, silly rabbit.
06:29:44 <ehird_> Cheap, ubiquitous, shitty colours, shitty viewing angles.
06:30:06 <ehird_> IPS: In-Plane Switching. Expensive, rare, excellent colours, excellent viewing angles, (caveat: not-so-good response times).
06:30:29 <coppro> nonono, the viewing angles are amazing
06:30:39 <coppro> especially from the side
06:30:46 <ehird_> If you consider shit at every angle acceptable.
06:30:48 <coppro> except for when you're straight-on
06:31:07 <coppro> like, no loss of quality at 80 degrees horizontally either way
06:31:18 <ehird_> IPS looks near identical at all angles; you can go almost sideways and it looks exactly the same as straight-on.
06:31:26 <coppro> yes, that's how this looks sideways
06:31:30 <ehird_> TN might seem similar at first glance but it's simply not.
06:31:33 <coppro> not nearly as much up/down
06:33:09 <coppro> I have no complaints except for this nasty bar
06:33:45 <coppro> I cannot see any noticeable change at any sideways angle
06:33:52 <ehird_> just wait til you look at the same image on two screens and notice one looks crazy
06:34:03 <coppro> ehird_: I can recognize LCD distortion, thank you
06:34:15 <ehird_> TN distortion != LCD distortion
06:34:19 <ehird_> TN simply fails at colour reproduction
06:34:26 <ehird_> nothing to do with the colour distortion on angles
06:34:41 <coppro> well, the subject here was angles
06:34:54 <ehird_> I meant re "I have no complaints"
06:37:01 <coppro> actually, there's one other. It's hard to look at the screen in insufficient light, far more so than my previous one
06:39:48 * ehird_ glances at kubuntu 9.10 alpha6 page for a few seconds. yep, kde still sucks
06:40:50 <ehird_> i should be happy - the thing causing me to glance is that ubuntu's stock gnome is so out of my way and usable that it seems boring... because i never think about it
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07:48:20 <ehird_> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/pepsi_to_cease_advertising
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07:48:35 <ehird_> if this was real i'd buy like 50 billion bottles of pepsi right now :P
07:51:11 <FireFly> 50 million bottles of pepsi on the wall, 50 million bottles of pepsi?
07:51:20 <FireFly> Would take some time to finish those
07:52:23 <ehird_> actually, i drink a lot of pepsi.
07:56:14 <pikhq> How very American of you.
07:57:27 <ehird_> it has an irritatingly addictive taste.
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07:58:55 <ehird> ehird_ is a ghost xchat i believe.
07:58:57 <ehird> fuck it in the ASS.
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08:55:28 <AnMaster> <Gregor> I read over the typo flawlessly :P <-- "reado"?
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09:30:07 <ais523> hmm... it seems that Apple have been installing Apache on people's PCs without their permission
09:30:23 <ais523> as part of some other software they were pushing out
09:31:14 <ais523> it was an opt-out update with a confusing description
09:31:54 <ais523> atm, actually, I'm more interested in whether it had source code or not
09:31:57 <ais523> what licence is Apache under?
09:32:35 <ais523> well, it should be easy enough to look up
09:33:39 <ais523> non-copyleft, it seems
09:33:48 <ais523> it's pretty like the BSD licence, just massively more complicated
09:34:26 <ais523> OW! Windows 7's default desktop background is /hideous/
09:34:46 <fizzie> Is it the one in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_7.png ?
09:35:24 <ais523> well, pretty much, the one there has a different gamma than the one here
09:35:27 <ais523> which is eye-burningly bright
09:35:49 <fizzie> It's just so powerful, you see.
09:36:16 <fizzie> Alternatively they're hoping it'll leave a permanent after-image on your retina. That's called "marketing".
09:36:43 <ais523> ok, now its busy advertising "libraries" to me
09:36:54 <ais523> which AFAICT are folders full of symlinks with marketingspeak layered over them
09:37:47 <ais523> because deleting a file from a library also deletes the original
09:37:56 <ais523> but deleting a directory inside a library doesn't delete the files inside it
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09:38:32 <fizzie> Ha, they closed his connection before he could bad-mouth W7 any more.
09:38:38 <ais523> whoops, pressed the wrong button
09:38:56 <ais523> I meant to close the tab, I closed the window by mistake
09:39:08 <ais523> using the "actually close the window, don't just minimise it" shortcut
09:39:42 <ais523> hmm... it seems the operation of adding a file to a library therefore isn't easily reversible
09:40:02 <ais523> ah... unless it always contains all files in a folder, which would make sense, so why didn't the help file /say/ that?
09:41:01 <fizzie> "At your taskbar, click on to the Windows Orb on the taskbar --" that somehow sounds really silly.
09:41:13 <fizzie> The Windows Orb, a mysterious relic from the First Age.
09:41:41 <ais523> also, some scary messages in the help file; it seems that the manufacturer of a USB drive has to do something special to get it to work with libraries in Windows 7
09:41:52 <ais523> and the help file suggests we nag the manufacturer if it doesn't
09:42:08 * ais523 wonders if such changes would make the USB drive less compatible with other OSes
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09:42:37 <fizzie> "Use the Optimize this library for dropdown to select the correct type of optimization (General Items, Documents, Music, Pictures, Video, or Internet)". What does that do?
09:45:55 <ais523> wow, that Windows 7 taskbar thing is awful, it's basically like OS X's Dock except without the features that make the Dock actually useful
09:47:03 * ais523 boots into CentOS instead, now it's working
09:47:08 <ais523> let's see how bad it is...
09:49:24 <ais523> ok, this is weird, it's Gnome with a theme that makes it look vaguely like KDE
09:56:13 <ais523> AnMaster: different computer
09:56:19 <ais523> let me get IRC working over there first
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09:56:42 <AnMaster> ais523, so you finally got the login to that computer and made X start?
09:57:01 <ais523_> X was running fine, it's the video card that was messed up
09:57:06 <ais523_> I couldn't see either X or console
09:57:24 <ais523_> someone replaced the DVI cable with a VGA cable, and it works now
10:05:19 -!- ais523 has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
10:06:03 <ais523> I think I know how to do it
10:06:25 <ais523> start with a minimal interpreter that's enough to 'be Feather' in that it can be retroactively self-modified
10:06:28 <ais523> and that's all you need
10:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that minimal one still sounds tricky
10:09:03 <ais523> because it wouldn't need to be written in Feather
10:09:05 <ais523> that isn't an "of course" with Feather
10:10:14 <AnMaster> ais523, it was "of course the outermost _interpreter_ can't be in Feather itself"
10:10:14 <AnMaster> (for compiler that works, if you start with hand compiling the first one)
10:10:14 <ais523> for a while I thought it had to be a Feather/something else polyglot
10:10:32 <ais523> but it turns out that you can see the source code of an interp even if it isn't written in Feather
10:10:35 <ais523> you just get a self-reference
10:23:30 <ais523_> basically, all that you need is an interp for a simple functional language
10:23:39 <ais523_> you don't need any more functionality than Unlambda has
10:23:51 <ais523_> with two changes: first, you need to be able to retroactively replace the interp
10:24:04 <ais523_> and second, it should be easy to write a polyglot in that lang and Feather
10:26:02 <ais523> conclusion: I need to learn Scheme
10:26:20 <ais523> or, well, any functional language (i.e. lang with first-class functions) that has call/cc
10:26:38 <ais523> I know Unlambda already, but I know enough Unlambda to know that that will be a bad idea
10:28:33 <ais523_> anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png
10:28:47 <ais523_> it's the taskbar that makes me think it's acting like KDE
10:28:51 <ais523_> it's a very KDEish taksbar
10:40:44 <ais523> at least the people here seem to know what software should be on a computer science computer
10:40:52 <ais523> it has emacs, XEmacs, /and/ gvim
10:40:59 <ais523> (and presumably the command-line versions too)
10:41:31 <ais523> annoyingly, although Evince is installed, Adobe Reader's default for PDFs
11:55:14 <fizzie> The store I bought the broken monitor from replied, told me to contact the manufacturer directly. The manufacturer replied, said they've outsourced service calls to some company called "Infocare", gave me a phone number. Now I've been sitting in their telephone queue system for the last twenty minutes or so, listening to annoying muzak and a "all aur lines are still busy" announcement which repeats every 30 seconds.
11:59:45 <fizzie> I hear some companies have built cussword recognition to their queue systems, to give preferential treatment to irate customers; maybe I should've tried that. (Too late now, they answered already; IRC complaining does the trick every time.)
12:00:46 <ais523> have they sorted out your problem?
12:01:54 <fizzie> Well, they'll send someone from yet another company (a courier service sort of one) to pick up the broken monitor. They didn't really tell me what they're going to do with it, though.
12:02:08 <ais523> hopefully give you a replacement, or fix that one
12:03:44 <fizzie> Yes, both sound just fine. Though I'm not looking forward to a replacement; it's bound to have some broken pixels, and that'll mean a horrible hassle, because the store I bought it from has a special "zero dead pixels" guarantee thing, which supposedly is for as long a time as the manufacturer's warranty, so I'd feel stupid to not take advantage of that.
12:04:57 <ais523> why would the replacement have broken pixels, if they had a no-broken-pixels guarantee/
12:05:22 <fizzie> It's not LG (the manufacturer) that has the guarantee, it's the retail store chain.
12:06:40 <AnMaster> <ais523_> it's a very KDEish taksbar <-- indeed
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15:18:09 <ehird> 01:30:07 <ais523> hmm... it seems that Apple have been installing Apache on people's PCs without their permission
15:18:12 <ehird> well, it comes on all Macs
15:18:14 <ehird> almost certainly an oversight
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15:18:44 <ehird> 01:34:26 <ais523> OW! Windows 7's default desktop background is /hideous/
15:18:52 <ehird> that gamma must be _really_ bad...
15:18:59 <ehird> 01:36:43 <ais523> ok, now its busy advertising "libraries" to me
15:18:59 <ehird> 01:36:54 <ais523> which AFAICT are folders full of symlinks with marketingspeak layered over them
15:19:05 <ehird> it's like a saved search, sort of
15:19:12 <ehird> certain file types from certain directories, curated
15:19:56 <ehird> 01:45:55 <ais523> wow, that Windows 7 taskbar thing is awful, it's basically like OS X's Dock except without the features that make the Dock actually useful
15:20:03 <ehird> if you'd actually use OS X and win7
15:20:08 <ehird> you'd realise how utterly wrong you are
15:20:15 <ehird> OS X's is worthless and slow
15:20:19 <ehird> Win 7's is well-organised and fast
15:23:05 <ehird> 02:28:33 <ais523_> anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png
15:23:15 <ehird> why do people misguidedly hate the genius that is the two-panel system :(
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15:26:46 <ehird> i talked a lot to you just before you return, heh
15:26:53 <ehird> (http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.29)
15:26:57 <ais523> my laptop went on standby
15:27:15 <ehird> i can't wait to logread
15:27:19 <ais523> so I'm leaving my laptop in it when I go to meetings
15:27:27 <oerjan> ehird: fizzie recaptured it after it came back
15:28:02 <ehird> so did anyone say anything when clog went
15:28:10 <ais523> also, three email accounts now
15:28:26 <ais523> yes, enough that I'll need to pastebin it
15:28:39 <ehird> ais523: anyway, summary of the few-line logreading if your browser is now nc(1) or something: "you're wrong! no, wait, whoever that is is wrong. correction, you're wrong!"
15:28:40 <oerjan> ehird: obviously what i said was incomprehensible, since it answered your question :D
15:29:18 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1584352
15:29:34 <oerjan> fizzie pasted before clog came back, duh
15:30:22 <oerjan> so, not only was it incomprehensible, it was also useless
15:31:01 <oerjan> nailing two birds with one stone since 1970
15:35:00 <ehird> so, I can probably get 24Mb internet!
15:35:19 <ehird> in other news, this is caused by moving. you may psychoanalyze the cause/effect relationship there.
15:35:56 <oerjan> well lessee, you are still living with your parents right?
15:36:35 <ehird> I meant how I put the internet as the main thing and the moving as a side-note
15:36:35 <ehird> but, err, being 14, yes
15:36:40 <ehird> well, technically false; parent
15:36:46 <oerjan> which makes it less likely that the move is the effect
15:37:01 <oerjan> unless your parent is as big a geek as you are
15:37:12 <ehird> quite the opposite
15:38:08 <oerjan> also i should probably qualify this since it varies so much by country: 24Mb would be an upgrade for you, right?
15:38:57 <ehird> currently on 8Mb. you, being a fucking ... uh ... Noir? i cannot think of an analog to Swede... probably have 100Mb.
15:39:19 <oerjan> norwegian, i know of no specific noun for it
15:39:57 <ehird> but I need something vaguely accusatory
15:40:02 <oerjan> actually i have never checked my speed. hm, how do i do that...
15:41:13 <ehird> speed tests are far too realistic and unboring because of servers slower than you, beyond a certain speed :P
15:41:18 <oerjan> the landlady got the broadband installed, despite being fairly (ok, totally) clueless in such matters
15:41:31 <ehird> so you don't know?
15:41:34 <ehird> I can check from your IP
15:41:41 <oerjan> well, i know the name, NextGenTel
15:41:44 <ehird> n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no
15:42:00 <ehird> oerjan: how much do you pay per month and does it include phone?
15:42:28 <oerjan> i pay nothing, it's included in the rent. although she increased the rent about 300 kr at the time
15:43:12 <ehird> then use http://speedtest.net/ (click the server it highlights in yellow) and I'll try and correlate that with your ISP's website and the 300 kr figure
15:44:26 <ehird> also pause any downloads before obvs
15:44:41 * ais523 tests the connection here at Birmingham University
15:44:54 <ais523> 10.42 MB/s download, 5.03 MB/s upload, 17ms ping
15:44:57 <ais523> that's a wireless connection, though
15:45:00 <ehird> ais523: probably 100Mb/s raw connection
15:45:08 <ehird> or even 1,000Mb/s, if they're fancy
15:46:01 <oerjan> 0.51 upload, 42 ms ping
15:46:01 <ais523> I've already closed the website
15:46:10 <ehird> oerjan: download is important
15:46:14 <ehird> the only erlevant one
15:46:34 <ehird> did it say Mb with a lowercase b?
15:47:11 <ehird> oerjan: you prolly have a 6Mb connection or so
15:47:27 <ehird> not very good I'm afraid :P
15:47:51 <ehird> <ais523> I have sideways 8 Mb, and I LIKE it!
15:47:58 <ehird> wait, that'd be 0Mb
15:48:01 <ehird> but infinite latency
15:51:48 <AnMaster> (about what you said about dmm)
15:53:16 -!- FireFly has joined.
15:53:50 * ehird wonders if there's a decent gnome usenet client, like a frontend to SABnzbd or something
15:54:28 <ehird> would also be cool if it had an interface to one of the big search sites but, you know, asking for too much
15:54:52 <ehird> http://www.lottanzb.org/ looks nice but depends on keeping the machine on instead of having a server download it
16:04:13 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise.
16:04:25 <AnMaster> oerjan, I'm not Star Trek nerd enough to spot the reference in Darth & Droids today
16:04:39 <AnMaster> (that they are talking about in the annotation)
16:06:53 * oerjan doesn't consider himself a star trek nerd either, but he knows _that_ :D
16:09:13 -!- ais523_ has quit ("Page closed").
16:09:30 <ais523> ehird: did you see my CentOS screenshot earlier
16:09:44 <ehird> ais523: uh, read the logs :P
16:09:53 <ehird> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.09.29 press end
16:09:58 <ehird> although rather boringly
16:10:02 <ais523> I did, I just have a bad memory
16:10:37 <ais523> you replied to my Win7 discussion
16:10:43 <ais523> (they're the two OSes on my office computer)
16:10:59 <ehird> 07:23:05 <ehird> 02:28:33 <ais523_> anyway: http://imgur.com/mTaiW.png
16:10:59 <ehird> 07:23:15 <ehird> why do people misguidedly hate the genius that is the two-panel system :(
16:11:19 <ais523> got the reference wrong
16:11:31 <ehird> also, those icons scale horribly
16:11:48 <ehird> (but I smiled a little at the old-school Clearlooks; I love that look)
16:11:58 <ehird> ooh, and a Bluecurve terminal icon
16:12:04 <ehird> ais523: window decoration and gtk theme
16:12:14 <ehird> Clearlooks looks different nowadays but has a classic style available
16:13:28 <ehird> ais523: can't gnome do a two-line taskbar? everything else is insanity like that
16:13:48 <ais523> that taskbar is one-line; I'm not sure whether it can do two-line or not, although that one isn't
16:13:56 <ehird> anyway, I assume you're not allowed to muck with this computer, or you just have a weird adoration of bad operating systems :P
16:15:02 <ais523> not allowed to muck with it, yes
16:15:17 <ais523> also, can't without doing things like opening it up and resetting the CMOS battery
16:15:21 <ais523> or other similarly dubious things
16:15:24 <ais523> it's meant to be pretty locked down
16:15:27 <ehird> not much of a computer, then
16:15:36 <ais523> I'm mostly using my laptop as a result
16:19:18 <FireFly> I recognize it from somewhere, I guess it's been discussed here before
16:19:37 <ehird> ais523's magnum opus.
16:19:44 <ehird> that is, if it's ever made.
16:20:34 <ais523> FireFly: several languages, like Brainfuck, INTERCAL, and Malbolge, are much-reputed for driving people mad
16:20:38 <ais523> Feather is /actually/ driving me mad
16:20:43 <ais523> as in, I have trouble thinking about it
16:20:56 <ehird> I'm not sure it's actually a valid concept, so to speak
16:21:25 <ehird> You can only think of one incomplete projection of it into concept-space at once, sort of like a Klein bottle in 3d space
16:21:25 <ehird> and since they're inconsistent, it just confuses you
16:21:28 <FireFly> I don't expect to gain anything from this conversation, will I?
16:21:35 <ehird> i.e., it's impossible to express Feather
16:21:42 <AnMaster> wait what, updated kernel on ubuntu but the same /lib/modules/foo directory for old and new?
16:22:00 <ehird> FireFly: It's a programming language that you can modify (the interpreter) retroactively - so that it was *always* true, infinitely far back in time.
16:22:00 <ais523> maybe the update didn't break binary compatibility
16:22:10 <ais523> just because Linux isn't afraid to break binary kernel compatibility doesn't mean that every update necessarily does
16:22:15 <ehird> Including the interpreter used to interpret your modification, the one used to interpret that, etc.
16:22:21 <AnMaster> explains why the module was loaded without being having to rebuild it against new kernel though
16:22:40 <AnMaster> ais523, how do they make sure it doesn't... I mean it would need some pretty careful checking
16:23:04 <ais523> the API is defined, if the API didn't change (only the internals), you aren't breaking binary compat
16:23:46 <FireFly> As a side note, what's an approximation of the size of the channel logs?
16:23:57 <AnMaster> you can break ABI without breaking API
16:24:08 <ehird> FireFly: something like 50MB
16:24:08 <ais523> but an ABI is a sort of ABI
16:24:12 <ais523> and besides, the A isn't correct either
16:24:16 <ehird> <ais523> but an ABI is a sort of ABI
16:24:37 <ehird> FireFly: 50MB is an awful lot of text, we're quite popular
16:24:49 <FireFly> well, I guess it's a lot of text
16:24:51 <ehird> I may be wrong; it's been a while since I've had the logs downloaded
16:24:56 <AnMaster> ais523, is the ABI versioned or something? Or how do you check if it changed without reading every patch manually and checking carefully if those things are exposed to modules
16:25:10 <FireFly> We're not talking about flooding the server with requests
16:25:18 <ehird> Each file is only about 100KiB.
16:25:23 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that the release managers did read every patch
16:25:38 <ais523> because they need to know what they changed
16:25:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Dec 2002 - late 2008 iirc.
16:25:49 <ehird> FireFly: One of these days I'll get around to writing my script that downloads all logs since the last run (or the full set if you've never run it) and then munges them all to use UTC time.
16:25:55 <ais523> besides, for all we know it's just 2 patches to fix security problems, or something similarly important but simple
16:26:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It's *text*.
16:26:09 <AnMaster> ##linux is like 50 MB per month
16:26:15 <ais523> AnMaster: people nowadays underestimate how compact plain-text is
16:26:18 <ais523> I grew up with floppy disks
16:26:27 <ehird> if we assume an average english word length of 5 letters,
16:26:30 <ais523> for which 50 MB is about 2 boxes of disks
16:26:38 <FireFly> ehird, will you reupload the transformed logs? :)
16:26:42 <ehird> #esoteric has seen 10,485,760 words in its time
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16:26:51 <ais523> and you used to be able to fit lots of data on a disk
16:26:51 <AnMaster> ais523, if ##linux is around 50 MB per month... (well, 48.2 for last month according to du)
16:26:58 <ehird> give or take the timestamps and names
16:27:02 <AnMaster> after compression it ends up at 4.6 MB
16:27:02 <ehird> but it's close enough
16:27:24 <ehird> That's *ten million* words.
16:27:32 <ehird> ais523: how many words fit on an average book page?
16:27:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how large book is your average one
16:28:03 <ehird> Regular novel size.
16:28:10 <ais523> I don't have to guess, I actually counted for a school project once
16:28:13 <ehird> Deewiant: with 5-letter words, roughly?
16:28:14 <ais523> but ofc it depends on the book
16:28:19 <AnMaster> ehird, as in hardcover discworld book size?
16:28:53 <ehird> As in I don't know, I don't own any
16:29:12 <ais523> hardcover discworld is larger than the standard novel, I'd guess about 300 for it
16:29:16 <Deewiant> ehird: I dunno, I just recall 250 being cited as average in novel pages back in the typewriter days
16:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what about English hard cover edition of last Harry Potter book
16:29:22 <ehird> Anyway, the #esoteric book (assuming 50MiB logs) would have something like 52,429 to 41,943 pages.
16:29:22 <ais523> I don't own any either, but I've read them in the library
16:29:29 <Deewiant> And still being semi-standard for estimates
16:29:35 <ehird> Absorb that figure for a second.
16:29:40 <ehird> We have talked a *fucking* lot.
16:29:49 <ehird> ais523: 41 and 52?
16:29:56 <ehird> as a good compromise
16:30:03 <ais523> well, either way, it's about 100 large books, or maybe one bookshelf in a library
16:30:41 <ehird> So yeah, we're prolific.
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16:31:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> well, either way, it's about 100 large books, or maybe one bookshelf in a library <-- Seen that wikipedia book?
16:31:29 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not the whole thing
16:31:31 <AnMaster> (might have been photoshoped, don't know)
16:31:31 <ehird> That was a subset of Featured Articless.
16:31:38 <ehird> Anyway, we'd be thicker.
16:31:41 <ehird> Much, much thicker.
16:32:01 <ehird> I doubt it'd be short enough to fit in any room in a typical house.
16:32:08 <ais523> the Encyclopedia Britannica takes up about two shelves, by comparison
16:32:29 <ais523> AnMaster: typical library shelf
16:32:35 <ais523> as in, I'm going on a copy of it I saw in a library
16:32:42 <ehird> Of course, I'm ignoring the fact that 90% of our ramblings are worthless shit and a selection of Wikipedia FAs and Britannica are both valuable resources.
16:32:45 <ais523> it's not as if I own it myself
16:32:57 <AnMaster> ais523, well, that would be some 20 meter long shelf if the local library is representative?
16:33:00 <ehird> Also, 74.9% of our lines are me. :P
16:33:19 <ais523> it's somewhere between 1 and 2 metres at the one I think of
16:33:26 <FireFly> Just think about the meta-nature of reading in the log-book about estimating the size of the same
16:33:28 <ais523> a 20 metre long shelf would be rather painful to attach to a wall
16:33:41 <ehird> FireFly: we'd better print it quick
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16:34:32 <ais523> I suspect both ehird and AnMaster are too young to remember the days of floppy disks, where 1MB was a lot of storage
16:34:42 <AnMaster> ais523, there are some shorter ones too, around 5-10 meters I think. those that are free standing in rows, rather than attached to any wall. Oh and down in the magazine they are around 7 meters I think...
16:34:56 <ehird> i'm so happy you can buy a TB for $80 nowadays
16:34:57 <AnMaster> though it was ages ago I used any
16:35:01 <ais523> AnMaster: a floppy disk holds 1.44 MB under DOS or Windows
16:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, after formatting and FS I meant
16:35:12 <ehird> AnMaster: well, duh
16:35:13 <ais523> something like 1.7 with certain Linux formats and FSes
16:35:18 <ehird> AnMaster: that's what my figure was
16:35:20 * ehird takes a screenshot, just because he's itching to play with Dropbox
16:35:24 <ais523> because they found a more efficient way to write the data to disk
16:35:40 <ais523> and you can get even more by forcing the drives to act in a way that the spec says they shouldn't
16:35:43 <ais523> but some drives break when you do that
16:35:45 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/Screenshot.png
16:35:53 <AnMaster> ais523, back then I was using Mac OS. So that was 1.44 - HFS metadata and such ~= 1.34 iirc
16:36:01 <ehird> It's, uh, very screenshotty.
16:36:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the combined band aid + gnome foot icon?
16:36:51 <ais523> ehird: that's your Ubuntu system?
16:36:58 <ais523> also, what's with the wooden-table wallpaper?
16:36:58 <ehird> Uh, that's the X-Chat X with the GNOME logo on top of it.
16:37:07 <ehird> i.e., X-Chat GNOME.
16:37:14 <ais523> you'd enhance the effect by hiding the panels
16:37:22 <ehird> ais523: that's my iMac with Ubuntu 9.10 on it
16:37:22 <ehird> also, I just like it
16:37:39 <AnMaster> ais523, hm any way to only get the "hide panel" button on one side of the panel?
16:37:47 <ais523> AnMaster: not that I know of
16:37:48 * ehird renames it to http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png
16:37:51 <ehird> to avoid name clashses
16:37:54 <ais523> that's a KDE sort of question
16:38:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well I meant I want that in gnome
16:38:14 <ais523> ehird: what's with the Foonetic channels there, btw?
16:38:18 * oerjan was hoping for an actual picture of a bandaged gnome foot
16:38:24 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png ;; this is what my Dropbox looks like in Nautilus
16:38:50 <ehird> it's, uh, pretty normal apart from that synchronized tick
16:38:52 <AnMaster> ais523, because with synergy I easily end up misclicking the hide button that is on the side that is "attached" between the screens
16:38:58 <ehird> which was blue and two arrows chasing each other (not animated) a few seconds beforehand
16:39:07 <ehird> (that little box in the system tray is dropbox)
16:39:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png ;; this is what my Dropbox looks like in Nautilus <-- err same image as the first one?
16:39:20 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not
16:39:29 <ais523> AnMaster: my guess is there isn't an easily exposed setting to do that sort of thing in Gnome
16:39:35 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png
16:39:36 <ehird> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nautilus-dropbox.png
16:39:41 <ehird> one shows dropbox in nautilus
16:39:46 <ehird> showing my previous screenshot
16:39:50 <ais523> Gnome isn't very big on settings that not that many people need
16:40:01 <ehird> why hide a panel, anyway?
16:40:08 <AnMaster> ehird, why is the first one 404 now?
16:40:08 <ehird> both of them are used commonly, at least for me
16:40:16 <ais523> famously it refuses even to allow customisation of screensavers, but apparently that's to do with the individual maintainer rather than Gnome itself
16:40:19 <ehird> * ehird renames it to http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/dropbox-fun.png
16:40:20 <ais523> AnMaster: he renamed it
16:40:20 <ehird> <ehird> to avoid name clashses
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16:40:29 <ehird> Screenshot.png isn't a very good name
16:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, <insert rant about breaking URIs or something>
16:40:40 <FireFly> You know it's a screenshot, at least
16:40:55 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the green thing on the image for?
16:41:03 <ehird> AnMaster: "This file is synchronized with Dropbox"
16:41:13 <ehird> If it wasn't, it'd be blue and have two arrows (non-animatedly) chasing each other
16:41:18 <ehird> (sorta like the recycling icon)
16:41:27 <ehird> Then the Dropbox daemon updates them, and it turns to a tick
16:41:31 <AnMaster> ehird, did you mention what dropbox was anywhere?
16:41:40 <ehird> Dropbox is a file synchronization over multiple computers thing
16:41:46 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a proprietary file-synch thing
16:41:47 <ehird> It's just like a regular directory, that it automatically syncs
16:41:52 <ehird> ais523: only the daemon is proprietary
16:41:57 <ehird> the nautilus extension and system tray are open source
16:42:04 <ehird> ais523: besides, Ubuntu One is proprietary and does the exact same thing
16:42:07 <ais523> I know I've helped someone install it on Ubuntu before
16:42:10 <ehird> except all of it is proprietary, and it only works on Ubuntu
16:42:12 <ehird> and it abuses the trademark
16:42:14 <ehird> and it comes with Karmic
16:42:19 <ais523> and due to not being OS, it wasn't in the repositories, which made it more complicated
16:42:20 <AnMaster> ehird, how is it better than rsync for example?
16:42:22 <ehird> so I think Dropbox is positively benevolent in comparison
16:42:23 <AnMaster> and what computer are you syncing it with
16:42:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I can use it like a regular directory, and it just happens, in seconds, instantly
16:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: And I can right click, Dropbox -> Get Public Link if it's in Public/
16:42:52 <ais523> I've heard awful stuff about paid software in the repos on Karmic
16:43:00 <ehird> And I can view it on the web, and upload files on the web
16:43:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, it stores revision history
16:43:08 <ehird> For something like 30 days
16:43:12 <ehird> (and also lets you undelete for that long)
16:43:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so where is this synced to? Some other computer on your network?
16:43:28 <ehird> I'm not actually syncing it to another computer, just playing with it
16:43:45 <AnMaster> I guess to some account on a server
16:43:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, uh, the Dropbox corporate servers. But the actual files are on every computer, so there's no risk, and I can easily use PGP or an encrypted loopback filesystem or whatever.
16:44:14 <ehird> It's all the rage with the Web 2.0 twitterblagosphere types.
16:44:32 * ehird tries making a loopback filesystem on it
16:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe using gmail as backend. Isn't it up at like 7 GB or something nowdays?
16:45:02 <ehird> One, that's probably against the TOS; two, 7374M(i?)B.
16:45:24 <ehird> Also, you can't share Gmail messages.
16:45:29 <AnMaster> that is still more than 2 GB yeah
16:45:36 -!- ehird has left (?).
16:45:42 -!- ehird has joined.
16:46:05 <AnMaster> * ehird (n=ehird@91.105.67.185) has left #esoteric ("Ex-Chat") <-- quite a bad pun IMO
16:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. Doesn't make it any better
16:46:30 <ehird> Anyway, Dropbox is cool. I'm sort of itching to make My Own Far Superior Version that uses Amazon S3 as a backend and encrypts everything but, you know, I don't care what they see because I wouldn't store anything sensitive on it without encrypting it.
16:46:37 <ehird> Also the proprietary daemon sort of fails to bother me entirely.
16:46:57 <ehird> Also, loopback filesystems are cool.
16:47:20 <ehird> Oh, and Dropbox traverses symlinks, so you can use it as a sort of backup thingy.
16:47:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm wondering how hard it would be to make something like it that didn't use any corporate server but simply synced between your own computers in real time.
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16:47:47 * ehird uses .xfs as a file extension for an XFS filesystem, because that's fun.
16:47:57 <ais523> what's wrong with that extension?
16:47:59 <ais523> it seems obvious to me
16:48:30 <ehird> Nothing; it's just fun to have things like foo.ext3 lying around.
16:48:40 <ehird> Because loopback filesystems feel so, well, exotic. And file extensions don't.
16:48:53 <ehird> I can almost imagine double clicking it and opening it like a folder in Nautilus 27.49.
16:49:04 <ais523> Nautilus should so do that
16:49:08 <ais523> after all, Archive Mounter exists
16:49:16 <ehird> Aw, Ubuntu doesn't ship with XFS?
16:49:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> Because loopback filesystems feel so, well, exotic. And file extensions don't. <-- how does loop filesystems feel exotic?
16:49:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Because they're fun!
16:51:20 <AnMaster> 1) fun - well, maybe. 2) uncommon - yes, because most of the time they are pretty useless, exceptions would be: mounting isos; testing/debugging new file systems/file system features; encrypted fs in a file
16:51:38 <ehird> So many... opportunities!
16:51:42 -!- augur has quit (Connection timed out).
16:51:45 <ehird> Fun filesystem nested testing VM cheesecake boom!
16:52:14 <ehird> One downside: There ought to be a mount you can use as non-root.
16:53:54 <ehird> Tee hee, I now have "dropbox" with an HD icon on my desktop. Let's see if syncing works properly.
16:54:22 <ehird> Oh, ext4 will be delaying gedit's writes, won't it.
16:54:24 <ehird> Let's unmount that thing.
16:55:00 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/Dropbox$ ln -s test.ext4 Public/2009-09/
16:55:10 <ehird> Brought to you by the "this is so cool that it can't possibly work" department.
16:55:20 <ehird> Oh darn, the link is broken.
16:56:12 <ehird> There, now let's see if it stored two copies. (Probably not, since it appeared synchronized first thing, which is cool.)
16:56:20 <ehird> Meanwhile: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/test.ext4
16:58:21 <ehird> Eh, it probably did.
16:58:24 <ehird> That link is disappearing now.
17:01:12 <ehird> Anyway, can someone tell me who thought Nautilus tabs were a good idea?
17:01:15 <ehird> I cannot think of a single usecase.
17:03:23 <ais523> much the same way as Firefox tabs
17:03:39 <ais523> because I was working in one directory structure
17:03:45 <ais523> then wanted to open a second whilst still working on the first
17:03:57 <ais523> (Enigma levels and Enigma source, as it happens)
17:04:14 <ehird> ais523: ever heard of windows?
17:04:31 <ehird> i mean, browser tabs are an acceptable kludge because our window management facilities suck so much, but for two folders?
17:04:31 <ais523> ehird: opening two windows would just be clutter
17:04:48 <ais523> I like alt-tab to remain relatively sane
17:04:52 <ais523> besides, it was for two related things
17:05:05 <ais523> if it was for two completely different things, they'd be in different windows, maybe even different desktops
17:05:08 <ehird> Two windows for two things you're working on.
17:05:09 <ais523> but when I'm switching quickly back and forth
17:05:12 <ehird> Uhh, that sounds like... you know...
17:05:14 <ehird> The purpose of windows.
17:05:20 <ehird> s/that line/oblivion/
17:06:25 <ais523> ehird: Windows are a pain to switch using the mouse, you have to move it a long way from where you're actually working
17:06:31 <ais523> and a pain to switch using the keyboard if you have too many
17:06:44 <ais523> whereas tabs are right next to the contents of the window themselves
17:06:48 <ehird> have you ever heard of Fitt's Law? the window switcher panel is very efficient
17:06:52 <ais523> I don't even like the concept of tabs above the address bar for that reason
17:07:03 <ais523> ehird: you have to move the mouse /back/ again afterwards
17:07:12 <ais523> and Fitt's Law applies to the contents of the window too
17:07:27 <ehird> doesn't matter, you have to move a bad Fitt distance with tabs
17:07:34 -!- augur has joined.
17:07:34 <ehird> it's more than "right here", but not enough to throw the mouse
17:07:56 <ehird> anyway, two windows != tons
17:08:12 <ehird> and i postulate that by the time you have enough nautilus windows for it to be a pain, you've forgotten about some of them
17:08:16 <ais523> and I had 8 windows open at the time
17:08:28 <ehird> ais523: so, would you appreciate a program that is just one program, with tabs, for every program you have open?
17:08:35 <ehird> OH WAIT THAT'S CALLED A WINDOW SWITCHER :P
17:08:48 <ais523> ehird: it would be useful /if/ I could choose which programs went there and which didn't
17:08:58 <ais523> also, if they nested too
17:09:02 <ehird> why do you have programs open you don't wnat?
17:09:06 <ehird> also, use ion or something
17:09:10 <ais523> ehird: why do you have programs open you don't want /now/
17:09:13 <ehird> it has window tabs, probably nested even
17:09:25 <ehird> ais523: I generally try to not
17:09:51 <ais523> let's just say, not every program in the whole world is both intelligent enough to manage 100% persistency even when closed, and opens up instantly
17:09:57 <ais523> this is a shame, but it's the current situation
17:10:02 <ehird> Yes, but Nautilus is.
17:10:15 <ais523> it would take a while to navigate to the folder in question
17:10:32 <ais523> it's something like 8 or 9 levels deep in the directory structure
17:10:46 <ehird> Anyway, we're talking two folders. I guarantee that beore Nautilus tabs you'd have had no issues whatsoever with it.
17:11:24 <ehird> also, I found the silliest microsoft ad ever!
17:11:24 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJp6NThk7XE
17:12:05 <ais523> ehird: before then I used command-prompt tabs, because it was a pain to do what I wanted via the API
17:12:31 <ehird> I also never use terminal tabs! I'm so crazy.
17:12:46 <ehird> Probably because context switching terminal/GUI is quite expensive.
17:12:56 <ais523> before /then/ I used multiple folder windows on Windows, and that was a real pain because sometimes there'd be so many the titles were abbreviated to one letter
17:13:07 <ehird> I think you need a window GC.
17:13:17 <ais523> ehird: that was mostly due to bugs in Windows
17:13:19 <ehird> God knows I do sometimes.
17:13:45 <ais523> but a window GC would only be useful if it was easy to restore them to the state they were in when they were closed
17:13:49 <ais523> which is a point you still haven't addressed
17:13:56 <ais523> yes, I know programs ought to be able to do that
17:13:58 <ais523> but most of them can't
17:14:01 <ehird> It could just move them to a "crap" workspace or something.
17:14:18 <ehird> Anyway, I never have problems. Maybe you just think I'm an extremist about closing apps.
17:14:21 <ehird> Honestly I have quite a lot open.
17:14:31 <ehird> Maybe it's because I have a big screen, so the window clickies are bigger.
17:14:42 <ehird> Whereas your tiny screen can comfortably switch, what, 5 windows? :P
17:15:20 <ais523> the window switcher can manage about 7 or 8, but I rarely use it, mostly because it involves using the mouse
17:15:37 <ehird> You know, I'm not sure GNOME is for you. :P
17:15:40 <ais523> and even when I'm doing Enigma work or web browsing, something similar that needs the mouse a lot, I don't like moving it all the way to the bottom of the screen
17:15:54 <ais523> and GNOME works just fine for me, I just use the features of it that you keep bashing as unnecessary
17:16:12 <ehird> ah, now that I'm not sleep-deprived I'm going to play some more Enigma
17:16:25 <ais523> (I do use the window switcher to easily see which windows I have open, it's how I noticed that I'd accidentally opened two Evolution windows, for instance)
17:16:36 <ehird> ais523: I think I tend to be a GNOME extremist just because I really like the philosophy
17:17:05 <ehird> I suppose to try and shape more accurately what "GNOMEishness" is in the minds of others, because I hate it when people go "lol removing options = betar gnome"
17:17:41 <ehird> ais523: Enigma VII has some really long times
17:17:57 <ais523> it has some really long levels
17:18:06 <ehird> hmm, where's that one
17:18:14 <ehird> ais523: for instance, #2 Diving
17:18:19 <ais523> also, because I've been working on Enigma 1.1 for so long, I keep on thinking of enigma VIII and enigma IX
17:18:20 <ehird> 48:14 par, 5:46 record
17:18:22 <ehird> par is probably way off
17:18:24 <ais523> which have some even bigger levels
17:18:31 <ehird> due to the shitty par calculation
17:18:35 <ehird> ais523: does Ubuntu have 1.1 yet?
17:18:43 <ehird> if so, is there a ppa?
17:18:48 <ehird> or any sort of repo with binaries?
17:18:52 <ais523> you have to compile yourself, or there are some "milestone" builds
17:18:57 <ais523> only for mac and windows, though
17:19:31 <ehird> oh god, I hate DownDown
17:19:35 <ehird> it just makes me stress out
17:19:46 <ais523> it's actually not too hard
17:19:50 <ais523> I used to find it massively ahrd
17:19:54 <ehird> it is because I can't play it calmly
17:19:58 <ais523> but did it with loads of time to spare when I tried recently
17:20:05 <ehird> ais523: #21 Cold Meditation, world record 18:53
17:20:07 <ehird> jesus fucking christ.
17:20:44 <ehird> Enigma VI has more long times
17:21:05 <ais523> ehird: I've found links to the snapshot binaries for Windows and Mac
17:21:07 <ais523> do you want one or the other?
17:21:16 <ehird> ais523: neither, I'll compile the source
17:21:19 <ehird> due to using Ubuntu nowadays
17:21:38 <ais523> "apt-get build-depends enigma" will get you nearly all the dependencies you need
17:21:41 <ehird> is it just me, or is VI#23 just designed to have every-fucking-thing in the game?
17:22:21 <ehird> Prepare Your Defense
17:22:36 <ehird> (also, what mouse sensitivity do you use? I can't get a good value. Using a wireless optical mouse with two batteries (so quite a bit heavier than a wired mouse or a one-battery wireless mouse) on a felt pad.)
17:22:42 <ais523> it's very highly rated, which means it's pretty complicated
17:22:54 <ehird> ais523: and the times are insane
17:23:09 <ais523> and I use normally 7, although I adjust it to 15 for levels which are predominantly ice, and 1 for parts of levels where you go through death-stone corridors or other similarly narrow fatal bits
17:23:41 <ehird> 7 is way too sensitive, I'll fall into everything
17:23:43 <ehird> 5 seems acceptable
17:24:01 <ais523> really, the optimal value depends on the adhesion of the underlying floor
17:24:11 <ehird> what, of the mouse?
17:24:24 <ehird> as I said, felt pad
17:24:29 <ais523> because the mouse-marble relationship is mouse sensitivity * adhesion
17:24:32 <ehird> so quite resistant, although not terribly
17:24:32 <ais523> oh, I meant the floor of the level
17:24:45 <ehird> anyway, maybe I should try a trackball
17:24:48 <ehird> that would be ideal for enigma
17:24:54 <ais523> e.g. ice you want to set it to 10 times your standard value, if you can
17:24:59 <ehird> second place probably going to a TrackPoint nub
17:25:01 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat").
17:25:07 <ais523> as that gives the same effect as your standard value does on ordinary floors
17:25:09 <ais523> well, more like 8 times
17:25:12 -!- ehird has joined.
17:25:18 <ehird> what did I miss, and what did I last say?
17:25:20 <ais523> [17:25] <ais523> as that gives the same effect as your standard value does on ordinary floors
17:25:21 <ais523> [17:25] <ais523> well, more like 8 times
17:25:24 <ais523> [17:24] <ehird> second place probably going to a TrackPoint nub
17:25:35 <ehird> carry on from there then :P
17:25:51 <ais523> standard adhesion's something like 1.2, IIRC
17:25:56 <ais523> although the "good" floors have higher values
17:26:07 <ais523> that is, good as in non-evil
17:27:11 <ehird> agree about trackball/trackpoint btw?
17:27:42 <ais523> I've played Enigma on a trackball
17:27:50 <ais523> I was about as good with it as I am with a mouse
17:27:56 <ais523> and considering I've practiced for months with a mouse, that's saying something
17:28:20 <ehird> I love Enigma, even though I'm really, truly awful at it
17:28:21 <ais523> (it would also avoid the problem with the mouse reaching the edge of the table; recentering it is ofc possible but takes time, which can be valuable in Enigma)
17:28:42 <ehird> btw, how do you jump over the fucking water in time in VI#35 Phaeton?
17:29:32 <ais523> it is possible, but note that that's rather a complex level with several possible ways to go about it
17:29:37 <ais523> and I can't remember which one is correct
17:29:43 <ais523> (I have par on that level, which I'm quite proud of)
17:29:48 <ehird> i did it fine, but now I have no idea wtf the next bit is
17:30:22 <ais523> you do need to get ready before you set off the lightpassenger
17:30:29 <ais523> remember that you can lasertransform things
17:30:44 <ais523> there's a laser, isn't there?
17:30:49 <ais523> also, you can even blocktransform things
17:30:51 <ehird> I don't actually know what lastertransforming is...
17:30:53 <ais523> the lightpassenger is a sort of block...
17:31:04 <ais523> ehird: haha, that could explain a lot that you're missing about Enigma
17:31:18 <ais523> not-very-spoily version: some items react weirdly to being hit by lasers
17:31:25 <ehird> it's not exactly very discoverable...
17:31:26 <ais523> I'll give you a spoilier one if you like
17:31:33 <ehird> I'll just try all of them
17:31:37 <ehird> it's not like I have a life
17:31:37 <ais523> ehird: "Advanced Tutorial" gives some hints
17:31:50 <ehird> Hey an umbrella for my money.
17:32:49 <ais523> one of the LotM essays has a fictional book called "Item Transformation for Dummies" that the black marble carries around with him
17:33:04 <ehird> Sunglasses! Stylish.
17:33:42 <ehird> VI#45 Wormhole Madness!
17:34:17 <ais523> those records have since been beaten
17:34:28 <ais523> par 12:04 record 3:41 with up-to-date data
17:34:38 <ehird> VI#44 Dancing on Light Beams record is 0:09, how the fuck
17:35:05 <ais523> I'm not actually sure how to do the level without it
17:35:18 <ais523> I get the lightpassenger to the end, and use it to knock the impulse stones out of the way
17:35:28 <ais523> then I turn the laser off so I can get at the oxyds, and it bounces back down the corridor
17:35:36 <ais523> OTOH, I'm not good enough to do the level using the shortcut...
17:35:42 <ehird> jesus christ @ Hot Meitation
17:35:57 <ais523> I've actually done that one, I think
17:36:14 <ais523> it isn't actually a speed level
17:36:18 <ais523> well, not unless you're going for the world record
17:36:27 <ais523> my time is 1:04, 8 seconds over par
17:36:51 <ehird> enigma should have keyboard shortcuts for "slow" and "fast"
17:37:00 <ehird> say, normal = 5, slow = 3, fast = 10
17:37:13 <ehird> hold down shift/ctrl or whatever
17:38:03 <ehird> it's easy enough to script that, but might be considered cheating that wya
17:38:26 <ais523> you could try asking on the mailing list
17:38:39 <ehird> but I'd have to subscribe
17:38:56 <ais523> I'm subscribed, but then I'd have to actually pull together the effort to care
17:39:01 <ais523> which is being spent on other things atm
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17:40:44 <ais523> I know that level quite well
17:40:47 <ais523> it also gets very high ratings
17:40:58 <ais523> and high ratings is a bad sign for difficulty
17:41:03 <ais523> people seem to like the massively long hard ones better
17:41:32 * ehird solves VI#60 in world record time
17:41:39 <ehird> (not new world record, but still)
17:42:05 <ais523> one of my levels has an author time of 22:45
17:42:08 <ehird> can it even be solved in 0:02?
17:42:15 <ais523> (which is technically world record, as I don't think anyone else has solved it yet)
17:42:46 <ais523> "Jump into Meditation"
17:43:03 <ehird> it's ridiculously easy
17:43:16 <ais523> which is equal to the world record
17:43:23 <ais523> and it's rare that a world record can't improve on the author
17:43:35 <ais523> who is just trying to solve it to set some author time, rather than trying to get good at it, usually
17:43:44 <ehird> yeah, if you're quicker than 0:03 you just die
17:44:04 <ais523> the times reflect the difficulty quite well
17:44:16 <ais523> it wouldn't be so bad if it used sensible floors
17:44:24 <ehird> that doesn't sound hideous
17:44:27 <ais523> but putting abyss and space and swamp and inverse in it is just unfair
17:44:35 <ais523> 9:25's the world record
17:45:05 <ais523> must have been renumbered for 1.1
17:45:05 <ais523> I'm thinking of "The Cube"
17:45:12 <ais523> you're looking at the easy mode
17:45:31 <ehird> I'm not using Hard.
17:45:43 <ais523> the easy mode of that level is OK
17:45:51 <ehird> ok, look at VI#100
17:45:53 <ehird> that time is ridiculous
17:45:54 <ais523> it's the hard mode that's a bitch, and is one of the things that makes me want to leave it for the last level I ever do
17:46:06 <ais523> and VI#100 is infamous
17:46:19 <ais523> it was obviously destined for a #100 slot
17:46:21 <ais523> it's just that sort of level
17:46:29 <ais523> I've never got past the third room on it
17:46:33 <ais523> and the second is really tedious
17:46:37 <ais523> which is /not/ a good combination
17:47:03 <ais523> #98 is rather difficult, it's one of the hardest one-screeners there, apparently
17:47:19 <ais523> and #99 is really a pain
17:47:25 <ais523> due to the white marbles falling in the water all the time
17:47:28 <ais523> and it not being obvious what to do
17:47:43 <ehird> I can't figure out #100's first room...
17:47:56 <ais523> one of the blocks is movable, and there's a hidden trigger
17:48:05 <ais523> (this bodes badly for the rest of the level, btw)
17:49:17 <ais523> bothering with it can be a bad idea, because room 2 is a) moderately difficult, b) very boring, and c) has about 4 or 5 plausible solutions, only one of which is correct and you don't find out which until much later
17:49:41 <ehird> room 2 looks easy, which means it's probably hard
17:50:12 <ehird> haha went south, straight into water
17:51:11 <ais523> incidentally, there's an infamous bit much later on in the level, which I've never reached
17:51:19 <ais523> apparently it's a maze involving death-stones and swamp
17:51:33 <ehird> does enigma 1.1 have the copyrighted music?
17:51:35 <ehird> ubuntu's package doesn't
17:51:39 <ehird> which makes me :sad:
17:52:25 <ehird> link to svn repo or whatever?
17:53:03 <ais523> svn://svn.berlios.de/enigma-game
17:53:50 <ehird> does it have the debian/ directory, I wonder?
17:54:14 <ais523> I have the repo here, I'll check
17:55:24 <ais523> yep, no debian/ directory
17:56:16 <ehird> well, it lets you make a .deb
17:56:18 <ehird> but I'll just use checkinstall
17:56:39 <ehird> I don't believe in just hoping I never need to remove something from /usr/local, you see
17:56:53 <ehird> (is trunk rather stable or should I keep the repo around for updating?)
17:57:30 <ais523> they tend to rename things a lot, so keep the repo
17:57:45 <ais523> also, they're forever fixing bugs and graphics and so on
17:57:51 <ehird> hmm... does dpkg have a replace-package command?
17:57:59 <ehird> i.e., I know you have that deb; forget about it, this is the new version
17:58:06 <ehird> that's basically uninstall+reinstall, but still
17:58:31 <ais523> but I rarely mess with dpkg directly
17:58:36 <ais523> except when fixing broken distro upgrades
17:58:48 * ehird wonders whether he should install it in /usr or /usr/local
17:58:57 <ehird> in /usr would break any Ubuntu Enigma, unless,
17:58:59 <ehird> does it name things -1.1?
17:59:01 <ais523> /usr/local if you aren't using the package manager
17:59:06 <ais523> and no, it just uses the old names
17:59:07 <ehird> checkinstall creates a deb
17:59:11 <ehird> by looking at every filesystem change
17:59:32 <ehird> it's very clever, you can just do "sudo checkinstall", describe the package, and it installs it into dpkg with "make install"
17:59:39 <ais523> install in /usr, uninstall if an official version comes out
17:59:49 <ais523> I installed into /home, with a separate .enigma directory
17:59:53 * ehird purges Ubuntu's Enigma
18:00:01 <ehird> (don't want any stray conflicting configuration files...)
18:00:07 <ais523> because I didn't want to lose my records on the official Enigma while I worked on the development one
18:00:25 <ehird> I'm terrible at it, so that's not a worry
18:00:39 * ehird wonders whether he should do something crazy, like symlink all my dotfiles into Dropbox
18:00:49 <ehird> If I used emacs, my .emacs would never be desynchronised!
18:01:04 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ rm -rf .enigma
18:01:04 <ehird> .enigma/ .enigmarc.xml
18:01:11 <ehird> ...why do you have a directory if you have a file too?
18:01:35 <ehird> checking out enigma sure is taking a long time
18:01:53 <ais523> I'm 57th best in the world by level percentage completion
18:02:12 <ehird> well, there are only about 100 Enigma players :-P
18:02:23 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/enigma-game$ ls
18:02:23 <ehird> add-ons branches feature_branches homepage tags team_levelpacks trunk
18:02:29 <ehird> ais523: you could have linked me to the trunk...
18:02:43 * ehird wonders where to put the repo
18:02:47 <ais523> ehird: that's the only link I know
18:02:54 <ais523> I mean, it's the one on the website
18:02:56 <ehird> ais523: you should check it out with /trunk after it
18:02:59 <ais523> I didn't realise you could check out subrepos in svn
18:03:02 <ehird> otherwise you check out every branch, the homepage, every release
18:03:13 <ehird> it can't go in ~/Keep/2009-09/, because it changes...
18:03:21 <ehird> maybe I should make ~/Volatile, or something
18:03:25 <ehird> for stuff that changes that isn't mine
18:03:55 <ais523> I have ~/research/ which is almost exactly that
18:04:05 <ehird> I love how academic that sounds
18:04:16 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:04:50 <ais523> out of all my directories, it's probably the one with the most subdirs
18:05:08 <ais523> apart from one that's a backup of stuff that was on previous computers
18:07:53 <ehird> I was about to use ~/Crap, but that's for crap I made already.
18:11:00 <ais523> how's the install going?
18:11:20 <ehird> I wiped the repo to redownload just the trunk, but I'm still hemming-and-hawing about a directory...
18:11:31 <ehird> ooh, how about ~/NIH? :-D
18:11:50 <ehird> ~/NIH/enigma go go go
18:11:54 * ais523 wonders whether me liking something makes it more or less likely ehird will use it
18:12:16 <ais523> wow, the Enigma devs seem to be on holiday
18:12:21 <ehird> (I wonder why I name bottom-level directories lowercase, but the rest Title-Cased English (although I rarely use anything but [A-Z][a-z]+)
18:12:23 <ais523> only change last week was a tweak to the Makefile
18:12:27 <ais523> when normally there are loads of changes
18:12:36 <ehird> probably running out of things to change.
18:12:46 <ais523> nah, I submitted a huge number of new levels last week
18:13:24 <ais523> together with corrections to 2 more
18:15:43 <ehird> okay, now to figure out what I need to ./configure
18:15:58 <ehird> configure.ac:110: warning: macro `AM_PATH_SDL' not found in library
18:16:02 <ehird> should that *really* be a warning? :P
18:17:59 <ais523> they added one new dep, IIRC
18:18:03 <ais523> although I can't remember offhand what it's on
18:18:13 <ehird> i'm sure i can handle one strenuous apt-get line
18:18:22 <ehird> I wish bash had a name for '& disown'
18:18:33 <ehird> pronounced "and STAY out!"
18:18:41 <ehird> ais523: so if you close the terminal it stays
18:18:41 <ehird> basically, it deparents the process, I think
18:18:51 <ais523> is that yet another variant on nohup and friends?
18:18:53 <ehird> otherwise, you have a bunch of background processes lying around
18:19:03 <ehird> ais523: nohup is not actually meant to do it as its main purpose, I think
18:19:08 <ehird> besides, it creates "nohup.out"
18:19:15 <ais523> agreed, its main version is insulation from SIGHUP
18:19:18 <ais523> which is what I generally use it for
18:20:26 <ehird> uh oh, I'm becoming a fan of Ubuntu's text rendering
18:21:12 <ehird> because I'm losing everything that defines me!!!
18:21:18 <ais523> (incidentally, I saw that Reddit post on the differences between Arial and Helvetica; you're right, Helvetica's much better where they differ at all)
18:21:48 <ehird> ... are we swapping?
18:22:00 <ais523> I never disliked Helvetica, in that I never really had a chance to see it
18:22:52 <ehird> the thing I notice most about Arial/Helvetica is the R
18:23:00 <ehird> Arial's slanted R just looks awful with all the other letters
18:23:12 <ais523> annoyingly, the R is Arial-like in this font too
18:23:14 <ais523> and looks bad here too
18:23:29 <ehird> About That I'll Rant.
18:23:36 <ais523> not too bad amongst capitals, but glaring amongst lowercase
18:23:42 <ehird> It's monospaced, though, so it's not exactly a paragon of typographical elegance any way you look at it.
18:23:52 <ehird> XChat-GNOME just looks awful in a proper font.
18:24:02 <ais523> monospaced isn't meant to be typographically elegant, I don't think
18:24:04 <ehird> I've forgotten the term for non-monospaced... proportional.
18:24:15 * ehird wonders whether to start making separate build directories
18:25:07 <ehird> the INSTALL tells me to do it in-directory, so I will! also I am lazy.
18:25:30 <ais523> most people never bother to make really proper build systems, like C-INTERCAL's
18:25:35 <ehird> --enable-tools Build developer tools default=no
18:25:42 <ehird> what're they? are they shiny?
18:25:54 <ais523> I doubt they're for level development
18:26:11 <ehird> He may have being sarcastic
18:26:18 <ais523> Deewiant: INTERCAL attempts to be unlike all other programming languages
18:26:19 <ehird> ais523: I know, but can you, like, mess with scores and internal values and stuff, I wonder?
18:26:21 <ehird> That would be fun.
18:26:27 <ais523> this includes having a build system that supports everything
18:26:41 <ehird> --enable-experimental Include experimental features default=no
18:26:43 <ais523> such as in-tree, out-of-tree, parallel make, running with and without install, and crosscompile
18:26:56 <ehird> Looks shiny. Looks dangerous.
18:26:57 <ehird> --enable-optimize Compile with optimizations default=no (whyever not?)
18:27:01 <ais523> very few build systems can manage all of that
18:27:18 <ehird> is optimisation disabled for dev purposes?
18:27:28 <ais523> probably to make it easier to debug
18:27:29 <Deewiant> Really? Seems relatively trivial to me
18:27:32 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~/NIH/enigma$ ./configure --prefix=/usr --enable-tools --enable-experimental --enable-optimize
18:27:38 <ehird> I wonder if this will break stuff.
18:27:51 * ehird updates system first, though
18:28:57 <ehird> Software Center is quite annoying at the moment...
18:29:10 <ehird> right now it's an Install/Remove... with an uglier interface and more confusing terminology
18:29:49 <ehird> also, "Ubuntu Software Center" both needlessly references Ubuntu in the menu and doesn't give any sort of hint; what's wrong with Install/Remove... or even clearer, Install/Remove Applications...?
18:29:58 <ehird> ais523: previously Software Store. Aren't you on Karmic alpha?
18:30:02 <ais523> oh, they're replacing Synaptic for Karmic, aren't they?
18:30:10 <ais523> I'm on Jaunty-proposed
18:30:11 <ehird> It just replaces Install/Remove... atm.
18:30:27 <ais523> which means I get fixes before they're properly tested
18:30:31 <ehird> But it'll replace Install/Remove..., Synaptic, Update Manager and Computer Janitor in 10.04 or thereabouts.
18:30:31 <ais523> but am otherwise on Jaunty
18:30:58 <ais523> as long as apt-get keeps working, I'll probably use that
18:31:03 <ais523> if the GUI things are too obnoxious
18:31:08 <ais523> Synaptic works but is kind-of bland
18:31:12 <ais523> (probably that's all for the best...)
18:31:17 <ehird> It's called "Ubuntu Software Center" in the Applications menu, which isn't helpful and references Ubuntu, uses a fixed blue colour scheme for the application view and the main page (think iTunes store), doesn't have enough whitespace
18:31:26 <ehird> In actual usage, it's just like Install/Remove....
18:31:28 <ehird> So it's not much of a problem.
18:31:41 <ehird> ("....", agh. I need to start using the proper ellipsis character.)
18:31:58 <ais523> I have no idea what iTunes looks like
18:32:22 <ehird> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ShssuEE1cx0/SqTDb0dQhtI/AAAAAAAADuA/bH9ZyFPRhEM/s400/Spotify+iphone+App+store.jpg
18:32:38 <ehird> imagine that thing's body, but far simpler and without the gradient; that's what Software Center looks like
18:33:11 <ehird> ais523: screenshot: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/software-center.png
18:33:38 <ehird> the actual design document on the Ubuntu wiki is excellent apart from the name and the "Department" terminology, but the application itself doesn't live up to it yet
18:33:51 <ehird> however, it's fine as an Install/Remove... replacement and easier to use for e.g. package descriptions.
18:33:54 <ehird> Also it has screenshots on some apps, which is fun.
18:34:15 <ais523> probably from the Debian Screenshot Project
18:34:25 <ehird> they have a debian spiral when there is no screenshot
18:34:46 <ehird> (also, that screenshot was ridiculously easy to take; I can just hit Print Screen, hit enter, go to Places -> Shared, right click it, and Dropbox -> Copy Public Link.)
18:34:57 <ehird> (It seems a bit convoluted, but I can have a URL to a screenshot on my clipboard in about five seconds.)
18:35:08 <ehird> well, technically I rename it before hitting enter, but.
18:35:15 <ehird> configure: error: libcurl is required to compile Enigma
18:35:31 <ehird> Package libcurl-dev is a virtual package provided by:
18:35:31 <ehird> libcurl4-openssl-dev 7.19.5-1ubuntu2
18:35:31 <ehird> libcurl4-gnutls-dev 7.19.5-1ubuntu2
18:36:23 <ais523> curl is to download the updated par times and world records
18:36:31 <ais523> that's opt-in on the options screen
18:36:40 <ehird> (which should I pick?)
18:36:52 <fizzie> One of those didn't handle SSL parameter renegotiation (used when there are some directory-specific SSL-related things), but it's possible they both do it right nowadays.
18:36:54 <ais523> it probably doesn't matter
18:37:03 <ehird> APT is licensed under GPL. libcurl can be used with both OpenSSL and GnuTLS. In case of OpenSSL a special exemption clause would be required for making it possible to link with both libapt-pkg and OpenSSL. We will try to get a written permission to do this from the previous apt copyright holders. Until we have that, we will use gnutls.
18:37:14 <ehird> from the ubuntu wiki about apt+https
18:37:27 <ehird> Curl: libcurl GnuTLS insufficient cert verification Vulnerability
18:37:27 <ehird> 10 Jul 2007 ... libcurl (when built to use GnuTLS) fails to verify that a peer's ... Note that libcurl needs to be built to use GnuTLS for this flaw to be ...
18:37:52 <ehird> this is just ridiculous
18:38:12 <ais523> OpenSSL I reasonably trust, although I'm not sure why
18:38:26 <ehird> openssl's code is gnarly
18:38:36 <ehird> otoh, gnutls seems to be way less popular
18:38:37 <ais523> and GNU's code is gnuy
18:38:40 <ehird> and there's that vulnerability
18:38:43 <ehird> so openssl is probably a better bet
18:38:49 <ais523> I imagine it would be...
18:38:52 <ehird> probably, but still
18:39:01 <ehird> I don't trust the GNU project to be very good with things like side-channel attacks
18:39:07 <ehird> they're too busy making their code look like ELEGANT LISP
18:39:33 <ehird> Note, selecting libcurl4-gnutls-dev instead of libcurl4-dev
18:39:40 <fizzie> I wonder if xmonad would be better than awesome; after all, Haskell obviously beats Lua, which I don't much like.
18:39:40 <ehird> Ubuntu tries to make my decision for me!
18:39:55 <ais523> oh, you just installed the virtual
18:39:59 <ehird> fizzie: The "it recompiles your configuration file to a binary then uses that instead of xmonad" rubs the wrong way with me.
18:40:04 <ehird> ais523: well, it's prompting me, but yes
18:40:09 <ehird> let's go with it, then
18:40:22 <ais523> this explains why C-INTERCAL depends on "gcc or a C compiler"
18:40:30 <ais523> it's giving a strong hint that gcc is probably the best one to use
18:40:33 <fizzie> ehird: Saying "+" in aptitude on the xmonad line says "will use 111MB of disk space", which sounds a bit excessive.
18:40:43 <ehird> fizzie: That's probably ghc.
18:40:52 <ehird> fizzie: You need the compiler for the configuration, you see.
18:40:58 <ehird> Because it's compiled and used instead of your xmonad binary.
18:41:08 <ehird> Did I mention that xmonad's configuration is shoehorning Haskell?
18:41:20 <fizzie> I have ghc already, though. But there's quite a lot of things that were not included by the "ghc6" package itself.
18:41:33 <ehird> Yes, Debian's infamous shitsplitting strikes again.
18:42:40 <fizzie> Awesome's configuration file is a Lua script, and I get a vaguely ill feeling whenever I have to do something to it.
18:43:26 <ehird> Use ion3(plus), then. Not only does it use a Lua config file, it also has an obnoxious author and license.
18:43:53 <fizzie> It doesn't support my uneconomical penis extend... I mean, Xinerama.
18:44:03 <ehird> There's a patch for that!
18:44:38 <ais523> ehird: iPhone app store parody?
18:44:40 <ehird> Enigma is now configured
18:44:40 <ehird> Source directory: .
18:44:40 <ehird> Installation prefix: /usr
18:44:40 <ehird> C++ compiler: g++ -DENABLE_ASSERT -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -DCXXLUA
18:44:40 <ehird> Libraries: -lcurl -lxerces-c -lpng -ldl
18:44:43 <ehird> Languages:de fr nl it es sv ru hu pt fi uk be el
18:44:45 <ehird> If these values seem to make sense, you can now run make.
18:44:47 <ehird> ais523: heh, no, but let's pretend it is; that's a good one
18:45:05 <fizzie> Sorry, according to the fact I used the wrong word there; I should've said "rub" instead of "support".
18:45:06 <ehird> ais523: does it take a long time, Enigma? to compile
18:45:17 <ais523> maybe about 10 minutes on this computer
18:45:26 <ais523> the install takes a while too, though, because it has to copy a huge number of files
18:45:44 <ais523> ehird: the *1.5 is apparently due to a scheduler bug
18:45:46 <ehird> g++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I../../src -DENABLE_ASSERT -O2 -ffast-math -fomit-frame-pointer -DCXXLUA -MT extractbitmaps.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/extractbitmaps.Tpo -c -o extractbitmaps.o extractbitmaps.cpp
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp: In function ‘int main(int, char**)’:
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:81: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:87: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:47 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:94: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:48 <ehird> extractbitmaps.cpp:103: error: ‘exit’ was not declared in this scope
18:45:53 <ais523> (does Enigma parallel-make correctly, btw?)
18:46:00 <ehird> It seems quite slow, but it probably works.
18:46:06 <ais523> also, what a weird error?
18:46:21 <ehird> "Did I mention, exit was not declared in this scope."
18:46:42 <ais523> it's like someone forgot to include <cstdlib>
18:47:03 <ais523> but I don't get that error...
18:47:03 <ehird> Do these people not... test this thing?
18:47:17 <ehird> It includes stdio.h.
18:47:20 <ehird> Maybe something weird.
18:47:26 <ehird> ais523: maybe my options are fucking things up
18:47:40 <ais523> that's a C++ file we're talking abuot
18:47:41 <ehird> make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/ehird/NIH/enigma/lib-src/oxydlib'
18:47:55 <ehird> ais523: so do you compile with the experimental features on?
18:47:57 <ehird> --enable-experimental
18:48:17 <ais523> no, I use standard config
18:48:24 <ais523> as in, configure without arguments except for prefix
18:48:30 <ehird> But okay, that's probably for the best.
18:48:33 <fizzie> "I will also not provide support for versions of Ion that have been corrupted with support for such things as Xft/fontconfig, and such versions may not be distributed as “Ion”."
18:48:35 <ais523> the game is fun, the compile doesn't have to be
18:48:52 <ehird> fizzie: you could just use multiple root windows, you know
18:49:37 <ehird> I want to stab people who use recursive make.
18:49:39 <fizzie> Again, I want Firefox windows on multiple screens without running multiple instances, and as far as I know it still can't do that.
18:50:03 <ehird> fizzie: VNC to a non-displayed screen</please don't kill me>
18:50:21 <fizzie> Now that there sounds like an elegant solution.
18:50:37 <ehird> fizzie: Or use a better browser!
18:50:42 <ehird> fizzie: Like Opera! Tuomov looooooooves Opera.
18:50:56 <ehird> Especially because it doesn't use GTK+, which is horrible GNOME crap.
18:51:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:52:15 <ehird> "density: command not found".
18:52:19 <ehird> Let's try that but without parallel.
18:52:30 <ehird> (What is density?)
18:53:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:53:23 <ais523> and it isn't in the repos
18:53:36 <ehird> Must be an Enigma thing that didn't get compiled yet, then.
18:53:49 <ais523> could be one of those funky dev tools
18:53:53 <ais523> that you're trying to compile
18:54:03 <ehird> No, I gave up on that.
18:54:08 <ehird> This is generating some artwork stuff.
18:56:42 <ehird> Still can't fucking find it.
18:56:46 <ehird> I think density is some imagemagick thing.
18:57:49 <ehird> let's try that again
18:58:03 <fizzie> I don't think it has density; mine has the binaries compare, animate, convert, composite, conjure, import, identify, stream, display, montage and mogrify.
18:58:32 <ehird> ais523: is there a file listing all the deps...?
18:58:41 <fizzie> In addition, packages.debian.org finds a "density" binary only from 'emboss', a molecular biology thing.
18:59:04 <ais523> ehird: not as far as I know
18:59:10 <ehird> Yes, but the calls look like ImageMagick calls.
18:59:29 <ehird> density -PixelResolution 154x324 {...} foo.png ../bar.png
18:59:36 <ehird> (made up, just an example of the s
18:59:36 <ehird> /usr/bin/convert -density 112x112 -units PixelsPerCentimeter -crop 48x48+0+0 ../../../data/gfx48/it_coin_s.png it_coin_s.png
18:59:42 <ehird> It tried to find convert.
18:59:45 <ehird> It couldn't find it.
18:59:50 <ehird> So $(CONVERT) -density became -density.
18:59:54 <ehird> And somehow the shell dropped the -.
19:00:00 <ehird> And... the rest is ...
19:00:05 <ais523> and no, Make dropped the -
19:00:07 <ais523> it has a special meaning in make, IIRC
19:00:11 <ais523> although I can't remember what it is
19:00:15 <ehird> /usr/bin/convert -density 112x112 -units PixelsPerCentimeter -crop 48x48+0+288 ../../../data/gfx48/thief_capture_template.png thief_template.png
19:00:15 <ehird> make[3]: *** [st_thief_drunken.png] Aborted (core dumped)
19:00:15 <ehird> make[3]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
19:00:15 <ehird> That, that is... that is not good.
19:00:36 <ais523> why would imagemagick be doing that?
19:00:48 <ehird> Let me clean, configure and try again.
19:00:49 <fizzie> Make has a special meaning for the - prefix, it's that ignore-errors thing or something.
19:01:00 <ehird> fizzie: That'd explain why it did multiple ones.
19:01:04 <fizzie> "To ignore errors in a command line, write a `-' at the beginning of the line's text (after the initial tab). The `-' is discarded before the command is passed to the shell for execution. "
19:01:07 <ehird> And errored out when it tried to access the produced files.
19:01:33 <ais523> would have been even more fun if the first command-line option had been a real command
19:02:54 <ehird> ais523: like rm -f, destroying the source files
19:03:02 <ehird> "Why are you doing that, Enigma?"
19:03:24 <ais523> it's unlikely that a program would accept -rm -f as options, and that someone would write it like that and not as -rmf
19:03:37 <ehird> convert assert failure: convert: magick/image.c:4516: SyncImagesSettings: Assertion `images != (Image *) ((void *)0)' failed.
19:03:37 <ehird> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/imagemagick/+bug/438884
19:03:39 <ehird> Reported with glee.
19:03:52 <ehird> I like how that only took a few clicks.
19:04:10 <ehird> ais523: ImageMagick style programs don't allow -combiningoptionsbecausetheyrelikelongoptions
19:04:28 <ais523> but programs with long - options tend not to use names like "rm" and "f"
19:04:42 <ehird> Ever seen rxvt options (and maybe xterm)?
19:04:44 <ehird> -sb for scrollbar.
19:05:08 <ehird> Heh, without -j3 it works. Coincidence or crazy ImageMagick bug?
19:05:16 <ehird> "Can only run two instances of ImageMagick at once"
19:05:29 <ehird> Okay, install checkinstall then sudo checkinstall time.
19:05:44 <ais523> maybe the image file was somehow unlinked while it was running?
19:05:55 <ehird> The package documentation directory ./doc-pak does not exist.
19:05:55 <ehird> Should I create a default set of package docs? [y]:
19:05:55 <ehird> Such a tricky question.
19:06:03 <ais523> I can sort-of imagine an fstat to check size, followed by opening after that, and crashing if it was unset in-between
19:06:04 <ehird> Is Enigma's documentation built by default?
19:06:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:06:34 <ais523> and very useful if you plan to make any levels
19:06:39 <ais523> (less useful but not bad if you just plan to play)
19:06:43 <ehird> So I need to move it around. Blah.
19:06:59 <ais523> you can just read it from the build tree, though
19:07:15 <ehird> Well, it'll do "make install" like normal; it just won't go into the official package thingy, whatever that is.
19:07:23 <ehird> And you know what, I don't even fucking care :P
19:07:46 * ehird copies Ubuntu's description of Enigma
19:08:46 <ehird> except for "This package contains the game engine." :P
19:09:00 <ehird> 0 - Maintainer: [ root@ehird-desktop ]
19:09:10 <ais523> that's a great maintainer
19:09:30 <ehird> o Optionally you can make a directory called "doc-pak" whose contents
19:09:30 <ehird> will be installed in /usr/doc/<package_name> inside the package you're
19:09:30 <ehird> about to create. checkinstall will remind you about this one if it notices
19:09:30 <ehird> there is no "doc-pak" on the source directory. Good candidates to be there
19:09:30 <ehird> are: README, INSTALL, COPYING, Changelog, TODO, CREDITS, etc. It's up to you
19:09:31 <ehird> what to copy in there.
19:09:50 <ehird> OTOH, it'll already do that.
19:09:50 <ehird> So to hell with it.
19:10:14 * ehird sets maintainer to ehird@ehird-desktop for logi
19:10:51 <ehird> I think I'll name it enigma-svn
19:12:01 <ehird> ais523: so this is 1.1, right?
19:12:13 <ais523> it's 1.01 (1.1 compatibility branch)
19:12:14 <ehird> 3 - Version: [ 1.1 ]
19:12:14 <ehird> 4 - Release: [ 1 ]
19:12:28 <ehird> should release be something like svn1077 (the revision number?)
19:12:34 <ais523> the engine is 1.1-compatible almost exactly, the interface is somewhere in-between
19:12:45 <ehird> ais523: is that what you use?
19:13:09 <ais523> yes, for level development
19:13:13 <ais523> and playing new API levels
19:13:21 <ais523> I use the Ubuntu package for playing old ones
19:13:27 <ehird> so should release be svn1077 or whatever?
19:13:55 <ais523> you may want to call the version something like 1.1~svn1077
19:14:04 <ais523> so it sorts correctly in debianbetical order
19:14:07 <ehird> 3 - Version: [ 1.01 ]
19:14:07 <ehird> 4 - Release: [ svn1815 ]
19:14:08 <ehird> I'm not sure what that maps to
19:14:46 <ehird> also, 1.1? isn't it 1.01? :P
19:15:06 <ehird> 6 - Group: [ checkinstall ]
19:15:17 <ais523> ehird: you could count forwards instead
19:15:20 <ehird> 8 - Source location: [ enigma ]
19:15:20 <ehird> 9 - Alternate source location: [ ]
19:15:20 <ehird> 10 - Requires: [ ]
19:15:20 <ehird> 11 - Provides: [ enigma ]
19:15:24 <ais523> in Debianese, 1.1~ means "before 1.1
19:15:31 * ehird changes provides to enigma-svn
19:15:40 <ehird> god, I can always change it
19:15:59 <ais523> provides is for things that depend on it
19:16:01 <ehird> ======================== Installation successful ==========================
19:16:01 <ehird> grep: /var/tmp/tmp.YhomUNcJHg/newfile: No such file or directory
19:16:19 <ais523> as in, "provides: enigma" means that things that depend on enigma will be OK to install if it's installed
19:16:24 <ehird> Copying files to the temporary directory...
19:16:31 <ehird> ais523: right; don't want to mess with that
19:16:33 <ehird> yay, it's going on
19:16:37 <ehird> installing debian package!
19:16:45 <ehird> Done. The new package has been installed and saved to
19:16:45 <ehird> /home/ehird/NIH/enigma/enigma-svn_1.01-svn1815_amd64.deb
19:16:45 <ehird> You can remove it from your system anytime using:
19:16:45 <ehird> dpkg -r enigma-svn
19:17:00 <ehird> what's apt-cache show on a .deb?
19:17:27 <ehird> Version: 1.01-svn1815
19:17:37 <ehird> since it's -svn, using ~ doesn't make sense
19:17:44 <ehird> since it'll almost immediately advance beyond any particular release
19:18:02 <ais523> so that'll sort correctly wrt the released versions
19:18:12 <ehird> yay, it's in my menu
19:18:35 <ehird> that might be from Ubuntu, but who cares
19:18:49 <ehird> ais523: you lied, the music is different :(
19:19:06 <ais523> it alternates between them
19:19:06 <ais523> enter a level and exit
19:19:20 <ehird> Pentagonal Dreams!
19:19:25 <ehird> is it just me, or is the mouseover button effect obnoxiously loud?
19:19:38 <ehird> ais523: Pentagonal Dreams is the catchy and legally dubious one
19:19:39 <ais523> it can be; you can tone effects down in options
19:19:40 <ehird> so I'll stick with it
19:19:58 <ais523> default's to alternate
19:19:59 * ehird ups the resolution
19:20:02 <ehird> what do you use? I use 800x600
19:20:02 <ais523> and yes, I know the names of the musics
19:20:15 <ais523> because it fits exactly between the panels
19:20:25 <ais523> it's sort-of the perfect size for this screen res
19:20:37 <ehird> 1024x768 puts a border around some levels
19:20:45 <ehird> so I guess 800x600 is "show me all of it"
19:21:09 * ehird turns on ratings update
19:21:09 <ais523> some of mine are in the dev version
19:21:26 <ais523> do a search for "Alex Smith" if you're interested
19:21:27 <ehird> peculiar UI for choosing a language; shouldn't it be based on locale?
19:21:51 <ais523> click "search" and it'll create a "search results" levelpack for you
19:22:04 <ehird> wat@tutorial level sierpinski
19:22:16 <ais523> heh, that one's always fun
19:22:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:22:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:23:22 <ehird> wow, my system lags loading the IX thumbnails
19:23:31 <ais523> it's regenerating them
19:23:36 <ehird> coffee? do I spot a joke?
19:23:39 <ais523> the thumbnails only need generation once
19:24:01 <ais523> I needed to find 9 useless items that looked different
19:24:08 <ais523> (useless in the context of the level, except for a specific reason)
19:24:21 <ehird> I didn't even notice
19:24:55 <ehird> ais523: mouse speeds in this version are slower
19:25:02 <ehird> 7 is acceptable, whereas it was intolerable before
19:25:20 <ais523> either that, or you're playing my levels and I generally use high-friction floor
19:25:29 <ehird> oh, that might've been the floor
19:25:33 <ais523> that's my only level in IX; most of them are in VIII
19:25:50 <ais523> #83 to #88 inclusive are all mine
19:26:55 <ais523> (you might recognise a couple of them from Agora, if you were paying attention there; I translated them)
19:27:20 <ehird> i'm walking without fear in VIII#6, have covered most of the level, and only died once, on my first tile
19:27:32 <ehird> i guess it disables after the first boom :P
19:27:43 <ais523> but after it explodes, it's unsolvable
19:28:07 <ais523> it's another level along the same lines as Su Dyxo and Enigris
19:28:13 <ehird> is there an "update level times now" button?
19:28:16 <ehird> Enigiris? is that tetris?
19:28:31 <ehird> wow searching is awkward
19:28:31 <ais523> it's in the old version, somewhere in level pack IV IIRC, and of course hasn't been deleted
19:28:41 <ehird> click a button, enter, go to level packs again, all level packs, choose search results
19:28:43 <ais523> ehird: yes, having to hover the mouse in one place, that's a UI fail IMO
19:29:00 <ehird> what do you mean hover it?
19:29:13 <ais523> also, it should jump straight to the search results pack if you search
19:29:44 <ais523> you used to have to hover the search box to be able to type there
19:29:59 <ais523> but, it's jumping straight to the search results for me, if I click on "search"
19:29:59 * ehird wonders if Experimental#6 is solvable
19:30:03 <ais523> I haven't tried pressing return
19:30:55 <ais523> and experimental#6 appears to have no pearls (for a meditation level), no oxyds, and no opals
19:30:55 <ais523> so I think it's unsolvable
19:32:05 -!- jix_ has quit ("Lost terminal").
19:32:35 <ehird> dunno#dunno Fool the Warden is fun
19:32:39 <ehird> (searched for foo)
19:32:47 <ais523> it's one of the old ones IIRC
19:35:36 <ais523> wrt your comment about coffee, finding uses for coffee has been a sort-of habit for level designers
19:35:55 <ais523> for instance, you can block lasers with it
19:39:17 <ehird> fool the warden keeps me playing...
19:39:51 <ais523> because it's easy but time-consuming until right at the end
19:40:03 <ais523> also, I'm not sure what the correct order to move the pearls in is
19:40:12 <ais523> hmm... if I'm thinking of the right level
19:40:17 <ais523> I may be thinking of something else
19:42:34 <ais523> that one annoys me too
19:42:39 <ais523> it's a different one, though
19:43:58 <ais523> just completed it in 1:02
19:44:03 <ais523> obviously I've got better since I last tried
19:44:20 <ais523> now, playing it on the version that actually counts!
19:44:41 <ais523> (and the one I was discussing before was "Fool the Watchdog")
19:44:47 <ehird> does the ball have a speed limit?
19:45:09 <ais523> and I don't think there are speed limits apart from mouse detection and floating-point roundoff errors
19:45:20 <ehird> because i'm spinning between... I think ice, and space
19:45:37 <ehird> currently going up/down very rapidly, only slightly left
19:45:37 <ehird> before that i was bashing around wildly
19:45:37 <ehird> it's quite fun to watch, and i'm flickering
19:45:42 <ais523> well, the mouse speed is ignored in space, and mostly ignored in ice
19:45:42 <ehird> so i think i'm going insanely fast
19:45:42 <ehird> especially since i dropped two items
19:45:47 <ehird> when i hit that column
19:45:47 <ehird> they both popped instantly
19:45:51 <ais523> so yes, you're going insanely fast
19:46:16 <ehird> it looks like i'm going smoothly now, but I bet i'm going so fast, it just looks that way
19:46:39 <ehird> didn't there used to be a thing that'd reset you back
19:46:53 <ais523> you mean, an item? to jump back to the start?
19:46:59 <ais523> it_ring does that on a single-player level
19:47:00 <ehird> no, but after a while on space, you got put back
19:47:08 <ais523> that's never been the case
19:47:15 <ehird> maybe a level did i t
19:47:15 <ais523> although people often either put magnets near space, or add gravity
19:47:27 <ehird> i skipped over solid stuff
19:47:27 <ais523> for that sort of reason
19:47:31 <ehird> and just glided to a reset position
19:47:41 <ehird> oh god invisible blocks
19:48:36 <ais523> especially as I went round the massive level twice and still couldn't figure out what I was meant to do
19:54:16 * ais523 waits for you to comment on one of eirs
19:54:44 <ehird> Rainbow Adjacencies: oh god.
19:55:03 <ais523> you remember that one?
19:56:21 <ais523> I like its preview image
19:56:52 <ehird> From Six To Twenty-Six: what is this I don't even
19:57:38 <ehird> Transforming Numbers: um
19:57:43 <ais523> it's the other Agoran level
19:57:52 <ais523> and Transforming Numbers is great, it's one of my favourites out of my own levels
19:57:58 <ehird> Deathbridge: Oh no, not this again. ...better try it
19:58:41 <ais523> you should have a go at Transforming Numbers (since renamed Number Crunching); note that that version has a shortcut but it's not one you're likely to discover, so playing an unfixed version should be fine
20:00:17 * ehird dies in Deathbridge, goes again
20:00:42 <ais523> (I mean, it took me months to discover the shortcut, and I wrote the level in the first place...)
20:00:55 <ehird> isn't such a shortcut good?
20:01:09 <ehird> also, *Deathbridge, goes
20:01:19 <ais523> it's a shortcut of the nature of "1% of the time this level is really easy, most of the time it's standard-difficulty")
20:01:29 <ais523> which basically just encourages grinding
20:01:44 <ehird> ah, so not knowledge-based?
20:01:59 <ais523> in fact, it's only ever come up twice to my knowledge
20:02:05 <ais523> and once it was someone else who reported it
20:02:09 <ehird> like "if we slip here, turn this on, bash these here, turn that off and turn on the laser, it hits the block to open up the passageway accidentally"
20:02:22 <ais523> there's a lot of randomness in level generation
20:02:39 <ais523> so you can't even influence it in the level play itself
20:04:43 <ehird> what's up with IX#7?
20:04:53 <ehird> (and is there a more standard naming convention than what I'm using?)
20:05:02 <ais523> you are using the standard
20:05:13 <ais523> although in the dev versions, we generally just use names as the numbers aren't fixed yet
20:05:33 <ehird> quite obvious, though
20:05:37 <ais523> you use the names in the Enigma packs, as every level's in one of those
20:05:44 <ehird> hard to look up, though
20:05:53 <ehird> it's technically in the level info, but
20:06:16 <ais523> have you seen the opal levels, by the way?
20:06:25 <ehird> is there enigma pong? oh, you made it didn't you?
20:06:27 <ehird> ais523: nope; pack?
20:06:41 <ehird> I seem to recall your enigma pong sucking
20:06:42 <ais523> ehird: 1.1 new has several, or I'll find a reference in VIII if you like
20:06:47 <ais523> I haven't submitted it
20:07:12 <ehird> What's the first? Minopal?
20:07:18 <ehird> Symopal? Brilliant Opals?
20:07:19 <ais523> VIII#57 is the only one I've actually done, though
20:07:36 <ais523> (and Coober Peddy is the one I've done)
20:08:05 * ehird has an idea for enigma tennis
20:08:26 <ehird> it's one of those little white balls, and the lua code makes it jump across some solid blocks when it hits
20:08:32 <ehird> can't do bouncing, but oh well
20:08:47 <ais523> just use st_portal_pearl
20:08:47 <ehird> you could enforce e.g. 1 hit/2 hits max
20:08:53 <ais523> which bounces everything but little white balls
20:08:54 <ehird> ais523: because you should bash into it
20:08:59 <ehird> well that's good then
20:09:19 <ais523> (for most of the things you want in Enigma, there'll be some object that does something similar...)
20:10:40 <ehird> is minopal meant to be hard?
20:10:52 <ais523> most of the new levels /are/ hard
20:10:59 <ehird> it's just tedious so far
20:11:04 <ais523> sufficiently so that I'm deliberately aiming to make easier ones to bring the average difficulty down
20:11:12 <ais523> the issue with opal levels normally happens towards the end
20:11:21 <ais523> when you end up stranding a couple of the opals
20:11:26 <ehird> well I'm fucked then
20:11:31 <ehird> I've just been bashing them semi-randomly
20:11:35 <ehird> and finding matching ones
20:14:28 <ehird> ais523: idea for enigma tennis - oxyds randomly appear on the opponent's side
20:14:38 <ehird> so not only do you have to shoot in a way advantageous to you over the AI, you have to try and hit the oxyds
20:14:51 <ais523> ouch, creating and deleting oxyds is a pain
20:14:52 <ehird> (and the opponent can, at your side, shoot blocks which invert your movement or something and act as obstacles for you to boot)
20:14:56 <ais523> do you mean, just randomly generating them?
20:15:18 <ehird> the latter idea is even more fun, though
20:15:29 <ehird> you have to avoid it because it'll harm you, and you have to desperately defend it from your opponent
20:15:34 <ehird> until it disappears
20:15:44 <ehird> (maybe it disappears by hitting a block on the opponent's side)
20:15:54 <ais523> why would you defend an oxyd from your opponent?
20:16:00 <ais523> it doesn't matter who hits it
20:16:05 <ais523> defending a quake stone would be more fun
20:16:07 <ehird> ais523: because it inverts your movement
20:16:15 <ehird> so you have to avoid it, and stop your opponent hitting it
20:16:19 <ehird> quake - like earthquake?
20:16:23 <ehird> just that sort of stuff
20:16:26 <ais523> I'm not sure if there are any movement-inversion stones, although you could script it with a monoflop
20:16:29 <ais523> quake = reset all oxyds
20:16:41 <ehird> could you do an earthquake?
20:16:44 <ehird> move all blocks left
20:16:46 <ehird> move all blocks right
20:16:50 <ais523> other ideas: cracks (that cause the floor to weaken and eventually disappear), that's earthquake-like
20:16:51 <ehird> (including balls and everything)
20:17:03 <ehird> (also a few blocks instead of one, likely)
20:17:12 <ehird> maybe make the player shake a bit to boot
20:17:22 <ehird> ais523: oh man, cracks would be great
20:17:27 <ehird> what happens if the ball goes in :D
20:17:39 <ais523> it would lose a life and respawn
20:17:47 <ehird> I double-punned this into Enigmenace, but that doesn't mention tennis :P
20:17:50 <ais523> a bit weird for tennis balls to lose life, but that's the way the game works...
20:18:11 <ehird> ais523: could it be rescripted so that the ball, as soon as it hits it, just disappears and you lose a point?
20:18:31 <ehird> at the end of the game, you have to wait a certain amount of time depending on the final score, too
20:18:33 <ehird> (to add to the time)
20:18:33 <ais523> just give it infinite lives, that's pretty simple
20:18:44 <ehird> ah, i thought you meant respawn the whole player
20:18:48 <ais523> and no, make it so you win when you're, say, 10 points up
20:19:30 <ais523> ofc, you'd die if the player fell through a crack
20:19:38 <ais523> so even a simple it_crack_s would be rather dangerous
20:19:42 <ais523> even if was set not to spread fast
20:20:44 <ehird> couldn't you give the player infinite lives for that part?
20:20:54 <ais523> more fun: a life dispenser
20:20:57 <ehird> otoh, the player falling through the crack should count as a death, no?
20:21:00 <ais523> somewhere off the court, say
20:21:11 <ais523> so you had to neglect the game for a bit to stock up
20:21:14 <ehird> except in the time-outs, there's one of those things that chase you and kill you
20:21:20 <ais523> likewise, you could have a switch that fixed the floor
20:21:22 <ehird> and an extra sort of level thing
20:21:27 <ehird> haha, this'll be great
20:24:39 <ehird> ais523: the AI would have to be pretty good, though
20:24:43 <ehird> otherwise it'd be easy
20:24:50 <ehird> ais523: ooh, how about a block that connects you to the tennis ball?
20:24:57 <ehird> or, that connects the opponent to you
20:25:08 <ais523> a switch that adds a rubberband? wouldn't be too hard
20:25:20 <ais523> or you could have it happen when the opponent ran over a rubberband item
20:25:20 <ehird> yep, the question is what sort of game mechanics it leads to
20:25:44 <ais523> improving the AI shouldn't be hard with the new API
20:25:50 <ais523> which lets you do much more interesting things than the old one did
20:25:58 <ehird> Horrible, horrible idea: multiball mode!
20:26:15 <ehird> Leading to additional idea: Enigma pinball.
20:26:30 <ais523> I thought of that, but the flippers would be hard to do
20:26:35 <ais523> and you couldn't really see what was going on
20:26:43 <ehird> you can't in some pinball games for dos, either
20:26:48 <ehird> with the scrolling mode
20:26:49 <ais523> (without some crazy messing about with primary actors and scroll modes; actually, I think I know how to do that)
20:28:40 <ais523> the trick would be to set the pinball as the primary actor for the player, but make it uncontrollable
20:28:44 <ais523> probably using space or zero adhesion
20:28:48 <ais523> come to think of it, you wouldn't need other actors
20:28:56 <ais523> and for flippers, just put areas of controllable floor
20:30:31 <ehird> and put oxyds around the level?
20:31:01 <ais523> in typical pinbally places, I suppose
20:31:12 <ais523> the main issue would be the lack of angled surfaces
20:31:27 <ehird> anyway, Enigmennis, with its horrible name, sounds like a more fun idea
20:31:31 <ais523> without those it would look unrealistic and be hard to prevent the ball getting stuck
20:32:42 <ehird> Enigma should add networked multiplayer, I can see a lot of potential in both cooperative and competitive levels
20:32:54 <ehird> like one where you need to move both the black and white balls at the same time to achieve something; cooperative
20:32:59 <ehird> or enigmennis; competitive
20:34:42 <ais523> they want to add networked multiplayer
20:34:51 <ais523> but apparently it's rather hard due to the way the code is structured
20:34:57 <ais523> (and lag could destroy it quite easily)
20:35:26 <ais523> there's already ways to set levels to work as networked multiplayer levels
20:35:29 <ais523> but no way to test the result
20:38:23 <ehird> so, you can do an enigma level totally in lua with a shitty xml description file right?
20:38:41 <ehird> is there a point-'n-click editor for laying out the basic structure?
20:39:22 <ais523> not if you want anything that produces anything more recent than the 0.83 level format
20:39:34 <ais523> on the other hand, the new Lua API is very good
20:39:44 <ehird> yes, but I have to memorise silly symbols for the basic layout :)
20:39:46 <ais523> even though the XML wrapper's a bit annoying
20:39:52 <ais523> and you don't memorise symbols
20:39:56 <ais523> you write your own list
20:39:56 <ehird> can you put the lua in a separate file?
20:40:07 <ehird> and I think that might be worse
20:40:23 <ais523> have a look at the source for a simple level, like my Three Times Through
20:40:32 <ais523> it's basically a list of tile definitions, followed by an ASCII art map of tiles
20:40:44 <ehird> "Garbage Collection? In a kernel module?
20:40:44 <ehird> As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time staring at a spinning clock on a blackberry because *its* code is all written in garbage-collected Java, no thanks."
20:40:58 <ehird> Because a mobile with Java is totally comparable with GHC on a desktop.
20:41:12 <ais523> GHC? in a kernel module?
20:41:18 <ehird> http://tommd.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/kernel-modules-in-haskell/
20:41:29 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant embedding the compiler
20:41:41 <ais523> kghc would be kind-of fun, after all
20:41:46 <ehird> (proof-of-concept of course; uses the House OS's ghc patch so it's ghc 6.8.2 which is years old; latest is 6.10.14)
20:41:52 <ais523> I've thought of making C-INTERCAL have a kernel module version just for the sheer ridiculousness
20:42:04 <ehird> ais523: I'd run that on my laptop. No joke.
20:42:07 <ais523> as in, you can compile INTERCAL in your kernel!
20:42:21 <ais523> if I do that, I'd make it output kernel modules
20:42:27 <ehird> I mean, yeah, sane Ubuntu and all, but I *am* silly and my OS should reflect that.
20:42:29 <ais523> although, it would have to use a userspace C compiler as part of it
20:43:08 <ehird> i'm so happy to be using metacity instead of compiz
20:43:25 <ais523> hmm... I kind-of like compiz
20:43:29 <ais523> on hardware where it works properly
20:43:35 <ehird> it looks snazzy at first
20:43:38 <ehird> but one, it's unstable
20:43:40 <ais523> and when it doesn't clash with software
20:43:42 <ehird> two, it places windows really terribly
20:43:44 <ehird> I mean, completely unusably
20:43:52 <ais523> oh, I normally have windows maximised
20:43:57 <ehird> three, that fading of windows and menus gets tiring when you realise it makes you wait longer
20:44:21 <ehird> ais523: it can either place windows in corners (retarded), center all of them (retarded), or cascade from the top-left regardless of the positions of existing windows (retarded)
20:44:28 <ehird> Metacity's is 1000x saner
20:44:44 <ais523> I use it for keyboard shorcuts
20:44:58 <ais523> like control-super-n to tell my music player to put up a notification about the name of the current track
20:45:08 <ais523> (I wrote that shortcut, it isn't a default)
20:45:17 <ehird> what's that got to do with compiz?
20:45:31 <ais523> it's compiz that implements the shortcut
20:45:43 <ehird> i'm sure you can do that without replacing your wm
20:46:17 <ehird> hmm... I wonder how I record loopback in Audacity on linux
20:46:23 <ehird> as in, record what's about to be sent to the speakers
20:48:23 <ehird> also, Audacity's about dialog ends with the button "OK... Audacious!"
20:48:26 <ehird> I can just imagine the developer there, going
20:48:33 <ehird> "how will people know audacity is something special? something different?"
20:48:40 <ehird> "we need to demonstrate that we're fun... and unconventional"
20:48:50 <ehird> set_label(okBtn, "OK... Audacious!");
20:49:31 <fizzie> My version doesn't have the exclamation point there.
20:50:08 <fizzie> Audacity also has a screenshot tool built-in.
20:50:26 <ehird> do you know what that means, someone came across that line
20:50:31 <ehird> added an exclamation point
20:50:41 <ehird> THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE >_<
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20:50:53 <ehird> also, fucking hell
20:50:56 <ehird> it really does have a screenshot tool
20:51:30 <fizzie> There's a "Blue Bkgnd" button in the screenshot tool.
20:51:45 <ehird> indeed: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/audacity-screenshot-tool.png
20:51:59 <fizzie> Did you take that screenshot with the tool? :p
20:52:16 * ehird wonders what those black pixels in the top-right of that window are
20:52:16 <ehird> fizzie: no, GNOME's :P
20:52:24 <ehird> and told it to add the window shadow, because I was feeling fancy
20:52:31 <ehird> ah, I think the pixels around the edge are from the background; it's dropshadowing a rectangle
20:52:36 <ehird> whereas the window isn't rectangle
20:53:12 <fizzie> My GTK is uglier, ha-ha: http://zem.fi/~fis/audacap.png
20:53:53 <ehird> Mine's the default Ubuntu 9.10 theme; quite appealing,
20:54:07 <ehird> fizzie: Yours makes it look slightly more organised, though.
20:54:27 <pikhq> fizzie: That's not a bad theme. Just quite sparse.
20:54:45 <fizzie> I think the theme is something called "Mist". I played around with the GTK settings a bit, then mostly gave it up.
20:54:45 <ehird> Mine's rather easier to differentiate widgets, though.
20:54:50 <ehird> Also my font rendering is nicer. :P
20:55:18 <pikhq> It's far better than some of the truly sinful KDE themes.
20:55:32 <fizzie> It's got a bit unconventional-looking checkboxes; it just draws a smaller filled rectangle in the box, instead of an X.
21:03:39 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:08:21 <ehird> ais523: is there a good level to copy the file of for lua-heavy stuff?
21:08:33 <ais523> there are some template levels
21:08:48 <ais523> it's best to use a lua-light level and then add to it, I find
21:08:55 <ais523> as lua-heavy levels tend to be rather different in the heavy stuff
21:10:13 <ehird> right, but I don't actually know any of the lua
21:13:18 <ais523> the docs are pretty good
21:13:41 <ehird> I sort of have an allergy to manual-format docs
21:15:52 <ais523> it's actually Texinfo, I'm almost certain
21:16:05 <ehird> that was a joke right
21:16:49 <ehird> ais523: VIII#8 - I have a feeling from the starting message that the solution to this level is going to (a) make me groan (b) be terribly nerdy
21:17:16 <ais523> ehird: not a joke: it gives links Texinfo-style, and occasionally they mess it up and raw Texinfo gets into the docs
21:17:30 <ehird> I mean documents in the writing style of a manual.
21:17:41 <ehird> As opposed to, e.g. a series of tutorials (which I can tolerate if they're short).
21:17:56 <ais523> the docs are about writing levels, I'd expect them to be manually
21:18:03 <ehird> Mostly manuals read like a list of "here's stuff we couldn't fit in elegantly, so we'll try and sort of connect them together into one huge essay"
21:18:07 <ais523> especially as they describe the API, and the behaviour of every object in the game, etc
21:18:45 <ehird> API references, I can do. Tutorials, I can do. Examples dissected bit-by-bit, I can do. Pseudo-essays attempting to tie a bunch of dry prose about the facts, I can't do.
21:19:31 <ais523> it gets better later on
21:20:28 <ehird> I haven't read it; I was just defining what a manual is. :P
21:22:27 <ehird> ais523: VIII#43 aaaargh
21:22:57 <ehird> (wtf@coffee in a meditation level)
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21:24:11 <ehird> unfortunaletly --VIII#70
21:24:37 <ais523> there are too many levels like that one, unfortunately
21:24:44 <ehird> illmind obviously wrote t his
21:24:53 <ehird> "hihi", bad grammar and spelling, ~foo~
21:24:59 <impomatic> Not much recent action on the BF Joust hill :-(
21:25:12 <ais523> ehird: Babylon? no, that was mecke, who has similar style
21:25:20 <ehird> I think we're running out of BF Joust ideas
21:25:32 <ehird> Idea: Enigma Joust.
21:25:40 <ais523> ugh, how would that work?
21:25:58 <FireFly> Would enigma map making be TC?
21:26:10 <ehird> It has Lua scripting
21:26:38 <ais523> I think it's TC even without, so long as something like a coin dispenser were implemetned
21:26:53 <ais523> you could use timings on coinslots as Minsky machine variables
21:29:17 <FireFly> That actually sounds like some interesting limitations
21:31:38 <ehird> so wait, enigma levels can be tc on their own?
21:32:23 <ais523> not quite, as it's hard to see how to get infinite storage
21:32:49 <ais523> coinslots would work by storing unbounded numbers in time (assuming the engine can handle unbounded times, which I suspect it can't)
21:33:02 <ehird> how does deathbridge change under hard?
21:33:15 <ais523> ehird: the glass is replaced by a solid deathstone, rather than vanishing
21:33:20 <ais523> so you can't shortcut by hitting it on the corner
21:33:56 <ais523> free extra life on easy
21:34:17 <ais523> on your starting square, so you basically just start with 3 of them rather than 2
21:34:20 <ehird> I've even forgotten how to survive past losing your lives...
21:34:56 * ehird wonders what... that one... is
21:35:22 <ehird> It has a floppy thing in it, and crumbling tiles
21:35:26 <ehird> and a black background
21:35:43 <ehird> crumble behind you tiles
21:35:45 <ehird> all crumbling tiles apart from, like, two safe spots
21:36:43 <ais523> the second screen's nasty, though
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21:48:24 <ais523> write a quick shellscript using grep to scan for all levels containing both it_floppy and it_crack?
21:48:33 <ais523> (actually, make that [-_] as the items were renamed)
21:48:57 <ehird> IV#96 is really hard
21:49:41 <ais523> $ grep -rl 'it[-_]floppy' . | xargs grep -l 'it[-_]crack' | wc -l
21:49:53 <ehird> well, alright then
21:50:12 <ais523> 7 I know aren't there due to being in the wrong levelpacks
21:50:30 <ais523> I'll run the others through less
21:50:59 <ais523> is "No Jumping Necessary" in Enigma I the one you're thinking of/
21:51:04 <ais523> it was the first one, which is nice
21:51:49 <ehird> is it the one you were?
21:52:39 <ais523> "Rhapsody on Cracks" also fits your description, it seems (apart from the black background), but it isn't that one I was thinking of
21:52:50 <ehird> "Intel porting their Concurrent Collections library to Haskell"
21:52:59 <ehird> so is haskell still irrelevant?
21:54:56 <ais523> it will always be irrelevant, even when everyone in the world uses it
21:56:10 <ais523> I know I saw an interview with someone at Microsoft Research who said that Haskell was producing useful ideas for F#, which would eventually filter into C#
21:56:13 <ais523> I think he was missing the point
21:56:37 <ehird> no, he was advertising MS technologies.
21:56:57 <ehird> shit, am I really turning into a cynical foss zealot :)
21:57:00 <ais523> trying to force Haskell into anything else just seems wrong, though
21:57:13 <ais523> ehird: you can be cynical without being a floss zealot
21:57:20 <ais523> I'm happy to be cynical all the time
21:57:39 <ehird> anyway, C# does an impressive job of not seeming like a hodge-podge with its functional features, but the only haskelly thing it has is LINQ
21:57:44 <ais523> worse, I'm both cynical /and/ idealistic, which is almost but not quite a contradiction
21:57:49 <pikhq> Also, you can be cynical of Microsoft without being a zealot.
21:58:01 <pikhq> Microsoft has done much to justify cynicism.
21:58:07 <ehird> pI\Uffffffff pikhq --my IRC client
21:58:11 <ehird> except the \U displays as [X]
21:58:17 <ehird> when tabbing pi<TAB>
21:58:29 <ehird> pikhq: true, but Haskell comes out of Microsoft Research, practically
21:59:21 <ais523> I used to think Microsoft Research was funded by Microsoft to try to make them look good
21:59:26 <ais523> after all, big reward, low cost
21:59:30 <ais523> but I'm no longer sure
21:59:34 <pikhq> ehird: And Microsoft Research is quite different from the rest of Microsoft. "Do interesting things. Make it make our stuff better if you can." versus "PROFIT IS IMPERATIVE. COMPETITION DETECTED. EXTERMINATE!"
21:59:57 <ehird> I might work at Microsoft Research, but never Microsoft
22:00:08 <ehird> although MS research would probably force me to use windows
22:00:14 <ehird> You are given 1,000,000.00
22:00:21 <ehird> British 2009 Program
22:00:27 <ehird> show details 19:05 (2 hours ago)
22:00:31 <ehird> You are given 1,000,000.00 Pounds by the British Telecom Promotion, Provide
22:00:33 <ehird> your Name,Address,Occupation
22:00:35 <ehird> oops, sorry for the spam
22:00:37 <ehird> didn't look like that in gmail
22:00:41 <ehird> anyway, the above is an example of (a) beautiful minimalist expression, (b) lottery spam
22:00:43 <ehird> that's the whole email
22:00:49 <ehird> "You are given 1,000,000.00 Pounds by the British Telecom Promotion, Provide
22:00:49 <ehird> your Name,Address,Occupation"
22:01:02 <ehird> british telecom, in promoting with their 2009 program, have given you a million pounds.
22:01:14 <ais523> how are you meant to reply to it?
22:01:19 <ehird> to promote goodwill to their products, I guess.
22:01:19 <ais523> just to the email's reply address?
22:01:27 <ehird> it's from telecom58@9.cn
22:01:38 <ais523> 9.cn is a suspiciously short domain name
22:01:43 <ehird> it's hosted by Windows Live
22:01:49 <ehird> as a custom domain thing
22:03:34 <ehird> also, did you know that n@ai (or something) is a valid address? it's owned by an Ian, who is the tech guy for the NIC of that domain
22:04:05 <ehird> prolly cause i mentioned it before
22:05:01 <ais523> I bet that breaks loads of email validation regexen
22:05:19 <ehird> but how cool is it to administer a root TLD?
22:05:26 <ehird> you literally own the domain "ai"
22:05:57 <ehird> whoever mainly administrates the root domain should give themselves <letter>@.
22:06:05 <ehird> for short (like you wouldn't say google.com.), e@
22:06:22 <ehird> or make it a symbol
22:06:28 <ehird> the only totally symbolic email address
22:06:48 <ehird> ais523: is an empty email address valid?
22:06:55 <ehird> didn't we conclude it wasn't?
22:07:15 <ehird> well, anyway, your email would be @
22:07:18 <ais523> @ would be a great email address if valid
22:07:28 <ehird> From: Elliott Hird <@>
22:07:32 <ehird> Organization: ICANN
22:07:33 <ais523> is it even possible to give the route domain an MX?
22:07:56 <ehird> `dig .` outputs an SOA record and nothing else
22:08:00 <ehird> and I'm not sure what SOA is
22:08:05 <ehird> but, considering that it gives \
22:08:12 <ehird> s/gives \\$/gives/
22:08:13 <ehird> .1447INSOAA.ROOT-SERVERS.NET. NSTLD.VERISIGN-GRS.COM. 2009092900 1800 900 604800 86400
22:08:18 <ehird> they can almost certainly add things to it
22:08:55 <fizzie> SOA is "start-of-authority", but I don't see why you couldn't put other records there too.
22:09:24 <ehird> hmm... if . is a separator, then surely . cannot be the absolute root domain
22:09:28 <Ilari> With -t any it also gives 13 NS records.
22:09:28 <ehird> after all, it's empty . empty
22:09:36 <ehird> so what'st he empty after it? :D
22:11:03 <fizzie> Right, obviously it has the name server records.
22:11:24 <ais523> also: http:// should be a valid website
22:11:30 <ais523> actually, better in gopher
22:11:35 <fizzie> And "foo" generally stands for "foo.".
22:11:35 <ehird> dig: '' is not a legal name (unexpected end of input)
22:12:41 <ehird> fizzie: That's what I meant.
22:12:54 <ehird> . is a separator, right?
22:13:01 <ehird> So the components of foo. are ["foo",""]
22:13:11 <ehird> In conclusion: . isn't the absolute root domain; it's ["",""].
22:13:56 <ehird> ais523: the massive politics surrounding adding an MX record to the root domain for personal use would be ridiculously huge, and you want to put an A record in there?!
22:14:06 <ehird> or AAAA, or CNAME, whatever
22:14:20 <ais523> ehird: it would be funny if it looked like one of those Windows help-on-first-run screens
22:14:23 <ais523> "Welcome to the Internet!"
22:14:35 <Ilari> The thing after @ is either dot-atom or domain-literal. dot-atom expands to dot-atom-text. dot-atom-text expands to atext+ ('.' atext+). To get one character, one is left with atext and that can't expand to '.'. So dot-atom can't expand to '.'. This leaves domain-literal, but those are enclosed in '[]'. The stuff in middle is dcontent. Dcontent -> dtext and dtext includes '.'
22:14:56 <Ilari> So, it would need to be in form '<localpart>@[.]'
22:15:18 <ehird> ais523: or, since it's at the end of every domain, one of those "you have reached the end of the internet" pages
22:15:29 <ais523> it would be more like the start
22:16:52 <fizzie> No, I mean "blah.com" is actually written "blah.com." in DNS messages and zone files and so on, so the . is a bit of a not-really-just-a-label-separator there too.
22:16:52 <ehird> ais523: but it's at the end of every domain!
22:17:45 <ehird> still, @[.] is a pretty awesome email
22:17:48 <Ilari> Hmm... Is 'foo@example.net' the same as 'foo@[example.net]'?
22:19:11 <fizzie> It does not take into account MX records.
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22:19:25 <fizzie> "In the domain-literal form, the domain is interpreted as the literal Internet address of the particular host."
22:19:27 <ais523> what does it do instead?
22:19:38 <ehird> so you can't have an email in the root domain
22:19:53 <fizzie> So sending to foo@[example.net] will not look for example.net's mail servers; it'll look for any A records for example.net, and send mail there.
22:20:28 <ehird> if you gave . an A record
22:20:28 <Ilari> The ways domain mail receive capability can appear in DNS records: 1) MX record. 2) SRV record on SMTP 3) A record. 4) AAAA record.
22:20:31 <ehird> you could have @[.]
22:21:21 <ais523> ok, /this/ is why we need an A record for the root domain
22:22:00 <ehird> are you sure that's a good reason :D
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22:22:11 <ehird> actually, it's a bad reason, which is the reason why it's a good idea
22:23:32 <Ilari> Heh. ac. has freaking A record!
22:24:19 <ehird> http://ac./ is different though, huh
22:24:32 <ais523> my browser goes to ac.com from that, which is parked
22:24:54 <Ilari> Except that root servers don't report it... Hmm...
22:25:16 <fizzie> It also has a legal disclaimer TXT record.
22:25:21 <fizzie> ac descriptive text "The AC zone file is protected under national and international law as a database compilation."
22:25:21 <fizzie> ac descriptive text "Access to the .AC Zone File information does not in itself convey any rights to any party to use, store, manipulate, such information without the explicit written consent of ICB plc, P.O.Box 4040 Christchurch, BH23 1XW, UK."
22:25:25 <Ilari> But their authoritative NS does.
22:25:34 <ehird> we can't store the results?
22:25:44 <fizzie> Well, why should the root servers know anything else then NS records for 'ac'?
22:25:45 <ais523> they should have added "cache"
22:26:07 <fizzie> It's not like .com nameservers would know what's the A record for example.com either.
22:26:38 <Ilari> af. has A record as well. ai. has MX and A!
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22:26:40 <ais523> who owns example.com, btw?
22:26:47 <ais523> presumably someone's responsible for maintaining it
22:27:36 <fizzie> Domain Name: EXAMPLE.COM
22:27:36 <fizzie> Registrar: RESERVED-INTERNET ASSIGNED NUMBERS AUTHORITY
22:27:57 <ehird> IANA IIRC OTOH IANAL BTW YHBT YHL HAND
22:28:40 <ais523> it would be great if IANA stood for "I am not a"
22:28:42 <Ilari> Yup, AI. NS reports the MX record too...
22:28:42 <fizzie> Example.com will expire in 13-aug-2011; would be nice if they'd manage not to renew it. (But unlikely, since it's listed like so that they are the registrar, not just a regular owner.)
22:29:06 <fizzie> as. also has an MX record.
22:29:30 <ais523> best of all would be if the root domain got parked
22:29:37 <ais523> but surely people will remember to renew that?
22:29:43 <Ilari> Apparently E-Mail addresses directly under TLDs are not just urban legends....
22:29:56 <fizzie> And tm. has an A record too.
22:31:36 <ehird> ais523: you can't exactly register . :P
22:31:38 <ehird> Ilari: I told you that
22:31:43 <ehird> n@ai or i@an or similar
22:32:12 <fizzie> There's a web server in the "tm." address, but I can't get my Firefox to go there, it just goes to www.tm.com even if I type the full "http://tm/".
22:32:18 <ais523> ehird: what's the chance at least one registrar will give you the chance to monitor . so as to be notified when its registration expires?
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22:36:11 <Ilari> fizzie: At least links2 could work (http://example complains about host not found).
22:40:21 <Ilari> If its one of those two, it must be n@ai since an. isn't mail-capable.
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22:47:06 <ehird> Ilari: yeah, I think it was n@ai
22:49:19 <ehird> "Wait, so person A always lies on opposite day if person B, who always not tells the untruth, reveals a goat behind door 2 and person A says they will unswitch the complex conjugate of their answer because person C always tells a clown joke when person A tells the opposite of the unlie, right?"
22:49:28 <oerjan> but what i want to know is, was it a _friendly_ n@ai?
22:49:48 <ais523> ehird: sounds like an esolang
22:51:23 <oerjan> obviously, it was their mother
22:54:10 <oerjan> the doctor, unless there was an untruth i missed
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22:56:17 <ehird> "but what i want to know is, was it a _friendly_ n@ai?" is what i mean
22:57:03 <FireFly> Ask oerjan that in -60 seconds from now
22:57:23 <ais523> nah, just retroactively edit one of your previous posts
22:57:39 <ehird> ais523: why do you keep referencing internet forums, it makes me sad because they all suck
22:58:29 <ais523> I mean, which one do I reference
22:58:55 <ehird> like editing posts, topic locking, etc :P
22:59:34 <FireFly> Nothing's wrong with that kind of humour
22:59:45 <FireFly> I like the forums discussion, though
22:59:59 <ais523> ehird: because IRC has a sufficient lack of equivalents that I had to use a slightly warped analogy
23:00:23 <ehird> i know, but it's upsetting because editing posts is the worst thing ever dreamt of :P
23:00:28 <ais523> I suppose the IRC equivalent to stickying would be setting a join message in ChanServ, or changing the topic
23:00:35 <ais523> and it depends on the forum
23:00:46 <FireFly> Well, the topic is already always on the top
23:00:48 <ais523> over on mag-heut it works pretty well, but that's because of the way mag-heut works
23:00:54 <FireFly> So I guess unstickying would be harder
23:01:02 <ehird> conversation is linear, reading is linear, it's so easily abused, and it encourages not thinking before you post
23:01:27 <ehird> besides, unless it's correcting a typo, it'll inevitably lead to confusion with regards to the following posts; and does that typo REALLY matter so much?
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00:52:12 <ehird> http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/172774/dell_adds_wireless_battery_charging_to_new_laptop.html
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01:01:36 * Rugxulo is brewing up his second ETA program (long), still only does simple text output, heh (trying to be poetic)
01:02:49 <Sgeo> Stupid Sgeo project of the day: Translate the Haskell Prelude into Python
01:03:15 <ehird> Only via greenspunning.
01:03:19 <Sgeo> Well, as much as possible
01:03:26 <ehird> You mean the useless, trivial functions?
01:03:31 <ehird> And the ones Python already has?
01:03:39 <Sgeo> Python has foldr?
01:03:49 <ehird> It's called reduce.
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01:04:13 <ehird> (I'm not sure whether it's foldl/foldr but outside of Haskell that rarely matters.)
01:04:55 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I don't see how useless/useful matters. I'm not trying to make anything useful.
01:04:59 <Sgeo> I'm just bored
01:05:50 <ehird> By useless, I mean things as pointless as (what will turn into) succ x = x+1.
01:06:03 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, if you're bored, take a look at ETA
01:06:09 <ehird> The rest is either impossible without basically implementing Haskell in Python, or is already in Python.
01:06:20 <ehird> Doing such a pointless thing can't possibly relieve any boredom...
01:06:22 <Rugxulo> http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html
01:06:26 <ehird> Rugxulo: have you played with bf joust?
01:06:52 * Rugxulo still wants to finish his ETA proggie ...
01:07:24 <ehird> (http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust; we use egojoust)
01:07:45 <ehird> also, I came up with the two modifications to ais523's rules to make it fairer, nyah :P
01:07:50 <Sgeo> Rugxulo, linky?
01:09:02 <Rugxulo> http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html
01:09:33 <Rugxulo> basically it's eight instructions, also doubling as numbers, and it's not a Brainf*** clone
01:14:04 <Sgeo> Should I download XEmacs or GNU Emacs?
01:14:27 <Rugxulo> lots of updates lately, 23.1 was just released like two months ago, internal Unicode now
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01:14:35 <ehird> But XEmacs; both because of jwz and since it sucks more, you'll be less likely to bug us about using it since you'll give up.
01:15:14 <ehird> Also, last I recall it *doesn't* include the GNU Manifesto, which is a huge plus.
01:15:59 <Sgeo> ehird's just convinced me to go with GNU
01:16:12 <Sgeo> Unless "it sucks more" was sarcastic?
01:16:17 <Sgeo> Also, updates++
01:16:23 <ehird> Congratulations, you get to use the editor equivalent of something that sucks.
01:16:33 <Sgeo> Are there significant keybinding differences?
01:16:36 <ehird> I will not supply the mandatory rusty fork for your eyeballs.
01:16:47 <Rugxulo> doesn't matter, you can rebind it ;-)
01:16:54 <Sgeo> Rugxulo, too lazy
01:17:08 <ehird> Personally I think the best Emacs variant is vim, since you're determined to learn one or the other through whatever deluded ideas from idiots with beards passed through your head.
01:17:18 <Rugxulo> even different versions of GNU differ on a few keycodes
01:17:20 <ehird> Shut up, I am *not* cynical and bitter.
01:17:44 <Sgeo> Does nano have SQL syntax hilighting?
01:17:49 <ehird> Stop imagining me with wispy grey hair drinking wiskey and slamming keys into a Model M. I AM NOT THAT PERSON.
01:17:55 <Rugxulo> no idea (but it does support hilighting now)
01:18:08 <ehird> Gee, he goes straight from XEmacs to nano. A veritable bonanza of suck.
01:18:24 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm currently using nano for school
01:18:28 <Rugxulo> yeah, Nano ain't exactly in the same league, unless you just want a very simple editor
01:18:41 <ehird> I'd be all yay, minimalism but nano is kinda poor.
01:18:59 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, you on Linux i presume?
01:19:02 <ehird> Sgeo: Man up and install GVim, it's more elegant and you get to have buttons to click if that's your thing.
01:19:18 <Sgeo> Well, I have to connect to the school's Linux computer through SSH
01:19:22 <ehird> Because he has some sort of crack-esque addiction to games that don't run in a VM, and dual-booting takes like 5 years, from what I gather.
01:19:27 <ehird> Sgeo: Using an editor over ssh?
01:19:31 <ehird> The lag will be delicious.
01:19:35 <ehird> Well, Emacs isn't an option.
01:19:35 <Rugxulo> try TDE (DOS or Win32), it can be compiled for Linux too w/ Ncurses dev:
01:19:39 <ehird> Over SSH it's piss-poor.
01:19:53 <Sgeo> ehird, it works quite well, when I was trying it
01:20:00 <ehird> It really doesn't.
01:20:56 <Sgeo> Wow, what a tough choice. ehird, who I usually believe, or my own personal experience.
01:21:10 <ehird> I will toy with your pony mind.
01:21:16 <ehird> But, also pony I guess.
01:21:29 <Rugxulo> www.texteditors.org (if you want options)
01:21:53 <ehird> I'll just go ahead and spoil that every text editor sucks really, really badly.
01:22:00 <ehird> Except perhaps acme.
01:22:06 <ehird> Which merely sucks.
01:22:14 <ehird> Rabble rabble rabble.
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01:23:05 * Rugxulo is in GNU Emacs right now, BTW, using ERC
01:23:29 <Rugxulo> yet I'm also using TDE (my typical favorite editor by habit)
01:24:50 <ehird> Heh, 80/2phi ~= 25, so 80x24 is quite close to an appealing size.
01:25:29 <Rugxulo> and yet that's what most people hate about Befunge93
01:25:39 <ehird> Well, it is sort of limiting.
01:25:39 * Rugxulo thinks VIC-20 programmers should feel at home, heh
01:26:03 <Rugxulo> no worse than no fork(), file I/O, random stack access, etc. :-)
01:26:07 <Rugxulo> but simplicity is a virtue
01:26:20 * ehird notes that GVim's toolbar is worse than useless.
01:26:30 <Rugxulo> it's true, Emacs is probably too much of everything (same with Nethack), but hey, they're good enough
01:26:42 <ehird> Gotta wonder why they bother.
01:27:19 <Rugxulo> no worse than a toolbar in Emacs (heh)
01:27:26 <ehird> That one is also terrible.
01:27:32 <ehird> But the Emacs menus are the real sin.
01:28:40 * Rugxulo actually thought the whole "using a free software vi isn't a sin but merely a penance" was funny ;-)
01:29:03 <ehird> maybe I should just declare a hiatus from sanity and use some fucked-up crazy fun weird-ass editor like http://software.jessies.org/evergreen/ and just blind everyone with my superior unconventionality
01:29:25 <ehird> I wonder if it does Haskell.
01:29:29 <Rugxulo> VIM is good too, just there doesn't have to be only "one true editor (tm)"
01:30:30 <Rugxulo> but seriously, try TDE, it's quite nice
01:30:44 <ehird> It looks like it has ncurses menus.
01:30:51 <ehird> Well, ncurses-similar.
01:30:53 <ehird> That sort of thing.
01:30:57 <Rugxulo> it uses Ncurses only on Linux
01:31:08 <ehird> And it has menus, right.
01:31:20 <Rugxulo> yes, menus (which you don't have to use, has keyboard shortcuts too)
01:31:35 <ehird> Yes, but it means it'll be a typical DOS Borland-style program. :P
01:31:54 <ehird> I'd say the closest Unix-based analog of that type of program is JED.
01:31:57 <Rugxulo> not really, it's better than typical Borland stuff
01:31:59 <ehird> http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/
01:32:02 <ehird> (Unix-originating that is)
01:32:05 <Rugxulo> I've tried JED, it's very good
01:32:07 <ehird> Rugxulo: I mean in UI design
01:32:29 <ehird> http://www.jedsoft.org/images/jed1.png is just a funny image.
01:32:31 <Rugxulo> honestly, I could be wrong, don't know the history, but I *think* texteditors.org says TDE is a IBM E clone (or similar)
01:32:48 <ehird> We have this graphical environment, not unbelievably awful, with a program that emulates an ancient CRT terminal from way back including control code.s
01:33:14 <ehird> And a modern GUI-based program, showhorned to use these control codes to draw ugly, low-resolution widgets with terrible mouse support.
01:33:26 <ehird> And... people prefer this over using the damn upper GUI layer... why?
01:33:33 <ehird> ncurses is just so bizarre.
01:33:45 <ehird> that's what I'm saying, look at http://www.jedsoft.org/images/jed1.png
01:33:57 <ehird> I don't care if it uses a |_ character instead of pushing pixels
01:34:08 <ehird> It's a GUI on an antiquated display with terrible input mechanisms
01:34:29 <ehird> There is no difference in the actual UI at all from a GUI, and the actual program merely integrates with the environment worse, looks uglier, and has inferior mouse support
01:34:43 <Rugxulo> JED has very good mouse support, better than most
01:34:56 <ehird> My other points stand.
01:34:58 <Rugxulo> but I don't think looks matter much (at least, not to me)
01:35:06 <Rugxulo> as long as it works, good!
01:35:43 <ehird> Yes, but the point is that it has no ADVANTAGES, only a crazy insanity of layers upon 70s-originating layers emulating the present, and that is simply bizarre.
01:36:16 <Rugxulo> so everything should be X-only? (I hope not!)
01:37:36 <ehird> Justify that. Justify how a JED-style GUI (don't say it's not a GUI, those are graphical widgets it's drawing, onto a low-resolution, low-colour display built entirely out of an emulation of 70s constructs) is any better than an X GUI. Why are these layers better? What do we gain over not requiring X, other than satisfying people who prefer the crazy 70s-based crippled ncurses graphical layer over the 80s-based at-least-slightly-modern X11?
01:38:11 <Rugxulo> not requiring X means you don't need X installed, don't need a suitable graphics driver, etc.
01:38:22 <ehird> are you running X at the moment?
01:39:26 <ehird> like 90% of linux desktops run X, and the rest are crazy irrational oboes^Whobos.
01:39:29 <ehird> if you have a framebuffer you can run X for chrissakes
01:39:32 <ehird> not having X installed - uh
01:39:37 <ehird> you need ncurses installed for ncurses programs
01:39:48 <Rugxulo> not if you link statically ;-)
01:39:53 <ehird> two GUI layers, one crippled and based on ancient technology, one not the first and the latter has been patche dup
01:40:02 <ehird> you could include X with your program too, and it'd be just as stupid
01:40:24 <ehird> yah, like a whole 100 megs.
01:40:36 <ehird> a suitable graphics driver, as i said, anything that can run a framebuffer can run X, and anything that can't run a framebuffer is going to be quite painful
01:42:53 <ehird> with bf joust warriors
01:43:20 * Rugxulo is still hacking away at the ETA program / prose
01:46:48 * Rugxulo probably went about this the wrong way
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01:56:26 * Rugxulo wonders if anybody wants to even read this sucker when done :-/
01:58:08 <Rugxulo> is there a pastebin I can post my WIP at?
01:58:54 <ehird> sure, pastebin.ca or something
01:59:40 <Rugxulo> okay, now here's the "backstory" so you understand it ;-))
01:59:41 <Rugxulo> http://www.osnews.com/comments/22225
02:00:24 <ehird> de icaza is a wonderful name for someone to call a traitor
02:00:26 <ehird> so spanish piratey
02:01:20 * ehird starts Evergreen. OH GOD JAVA TEXT RENDERING MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOOOOOOOOOP
02:01:28 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585217
02:01:36 <ehird> Fuck fuck OW my EYES
02:01:44 * Rugxulo doesn't even know how to pronounce it
02:01:55 <Rugxulo> I always read either Ikaza or Izaka :-P
02:02:40 <Rugxulo> this is meant to be a valid ETA program, but all it really does it print a silly joke
02:02:56 <Rugxulo> as you can tell, some words ain't fleshed out yet
02:03:21 <Rugxulo> not really, but goofy? heck yes! :-D
02:06:24 <Rugxulo> it basically prints this (hope this isn't considered flooding):
02:06:45 <Rugxulo> u share code else rms get mad
02:07:38 <Sgeo> Don't talk to me about silly jokes
02:08:02 * ehird tries using IcedTea (and thus GNU Classpath) instead of the java jvm for font rendering
02:08:21 <ehird> Bonus: Appears to predate their awful subpixel crap
02:08:34 <ehird> Downside: Still ugly
02:09:23 <Sgeo> I'm not going to finish
02:09:40 <ehird> Ignore Sgeo, he's on crack.
02:09:48 <ehird> (Note: This is good life advice always.)
02:09:55 <Rugxulo> or worse ... fungal toe! :-D
02:10:16 <Sgeo> Oh wait, wrong starting
02:10:18 <Sgeo> Still, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/psox/db_utils.py
02:10:19 <coppro> Ignore ehird, he's ehird. Also good life advice.
02:10:25 <ehird> Sgeo is like my sidekick that I just abuse and never helps me with anything and I just, like, solve the case and get all the chicks and then stomp on his head a bit for good measure and he keeps running around like a doofus
02:10:29 <ehird> Something like that
02:10:39 <ehird> I'm going to go cut myself now.
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02:32:29 * Rugxulo is still seeing the same Vista bugs, so it's (badly) ironic that 7 is coming out soon
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02:41:04 <Sgeo> Network Address Translation
02:41:34 <Sgeo> Several computers behind one router. When a computer makes a request, it's sent using the router's IP. Thus, the individual computers don't have individual IP addresses
02:42:04 <Sgeo> The router routes the results of requests properly, but without forwarding, inbound requests make no sense, as there's no IP to request from
02:42:13 <Rugxulo> so if I say "your NAT murders OE", does it even almost make sense?
02:42:25 <Sgeo> If it's a server, it makes sense
02:42:31 <Gregor> Presumably some protocol that doesn't work over a NAT.
02:42:41 <Gregor> Everything should murder Outlook.
02:42:45 * Rugxulo is still working on the Fungal Toe ETA program
02:42:55 <Gregor> It should be the goal of everyone to murder Outlook and all software like it.
02:43:09 <Sgeo> Is Evolution considered Outlook-like?
02:43:27 <Gregor> The property being compared is terriblocity.
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03:10:49 <Rugxulo> updated but still not quite done
03:10:50 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585289
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03:38:51 <Rugxulo> I think I'm basically done
03:39:06 <Rugxulo> it could still be cleaned up a bit, made to look better, rhyme better, make more sense, etc.
03:39:16 <Rugxulo> but I think it's more-or-less done :-)
03:40:00 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585307
03:40:37 <Rugxulo> someone please read it ;-)
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04:21:51 <Rugxulo> should be more readable (hopefully)
04:21:52 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585356
04:26:48 <Rugxulo> P.S. I guess I should license this under GPLv3, just to be extra hilarious ;-)
04:46:33 <Rugxulo> http://pastebin.ca/1585395
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06:59:04 <coppro> I am now reminded of an awesome shirt I saw last weekend: "Reality is for people who can't handle √-1̅
06:59:29 <coppro> ugh, that combining overline fails
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08:34:50 <oerjan> <ehird> joke on ai? <-- you need joke explanations now? sad, sad.
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16:11:58 <ehird> 18:43:09 <Sgeo> Is Evolution considered Outlook-like?
16:12:04 <ehird> Evolution is awful, awful, awful and should not be part of GNOME at all.
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16:26:32 <Gregor> `addquote <ehird> Evolution is awful, awful, awful
16:26:50 <Gregor> Why does HackBot keep wandering off of FreeNOde...
16:27:35 <ehird> Because it's called Freenode
16:27:47 <ehird> Actually it's freenode, but it's definitely not FreeNode or FreeNOde.
16:34:42 <ehird> i am evil!- and, I have prongs!
16:34:46 <fungot> ehird: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly!
16:35:03 <ehird> fungot: can that sword stop alone?
16:35:03 <fungot> ehird: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune!
16:35:10 <ehird> that's not helpful, fungot
16:35:10 <fungot> ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you!
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16:42:27 * ehird_ considers biting the bullet and putting all the shit in ~/.cabal
16:42:34 <ehird_> a traitor to my own package manager.
16:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird_, hi there. You used windows 7 right?
16:44:01 <AnMaster> I'm trying to install windows 7 pro x64 (aquired through MSDNAA) in virtualbox but it always claim disk drivers are missing. Tried all the three IDE controller settings, SATA and both SCSI settings
16:44:17 <ehird_> windows 7 pro doesn't exist.
16:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird_, hm sec, laptop booting and I will give you the full product name in a minute or so
16:44:42 <ehird_> anyway, no idea; use something that isn't virtualbox
16:44:47 <ehird_> AnMaster: home premium?
16:45:06 <ehird_> not just Home (presumably Basic)
16:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird_, right, resuming from suspend to disk
16:47:15 <AnMaster> Windows 7 Professional (x64) RTM - DVD (English).iso
16:47:34 <AnMaster> ehird_, sure, a figment of MSDNAA's imagination I bet
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16:48:08 <Deewiant> Home Premium / Pro / Ultimate are the three editions to the best of my knowledge
16:48:22 <AnMaster> <ehird_> * Professional <-- indeed
16:48:22 <ehird_> Windows 7 will be available in six different editions, but only Home Premium and Professional will be available for retail sale in most countries
16:48:39 <AnMaster> ehird_, the ultimate one wasn't available on MSDNAA
16:48:43 <ehird_> AnMaster: Professional is universally better than Home Starter, so that's fine.
16:48:58 <ehird_> No Subsystem for Unix-based Applications, though. Hah!
16:49:12 <AnMaster> ehird_, well pro was the only one available in fact. There were like 15 entries in the menu for SQL server though
16:49:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway RTM... that means release? or pre-release?
16:49:52 <ehird_> Anyway, VirtualBox can't do Aero IIRC, or at least not very well, and e.g. Windows 7's taskbardockthingy is kinda crippled without it, so I'm not sure why you're bothering with VirtualBox.
16:49:56 <ehird_> AnMaster: Release To Manufacturer.
16:49:58 <AnMaster> I thought windows 7 wasn't available yet
16:50:14 <AnMaster> maybe they release it for MSDNAA earlier
16:50:21 <ehird_> They release it to manufacturers earlier.
16:50:40 <ehird_> Everyone pirating it is using RTM, anyway.
16:50:46 <AnMaster> in any case... any idea about the driver issue?
16:51:00 <ehird_> Yes, but you ignored the two lines in question.
16:51:14 <ehird_> The two ones mentioning VirtualBox.
16:51:28 <AnMaster> <ehird_> anyway, no idea; use something that isn't virtualbox
16:51:47 <ehird_> Yes; commonly refer to one and a one as two.
16:51:48 <AnMaster> ehird_, anyway what else than virtualbox is there? Xen?
16:52:00 <ehird_> AnMaster: Xen isn't actually a proper VM...
16:52:46 <ehird_> Although I'm not sure they have a trial as opposed to the useless VMWare Player thing.
16:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird_, vmware server 2 is a piece of crap. and for 1.x bitrot has ensured the kernel module no longer compiles against recent kernels
16:53:04 <ehird_> It's a piece of crap but it might be a working piece of crap. Also, I'm referring to Workstation.
16:53:11 <ehird_> Which is available for Linux.
16:53:24 <AnMaster> ehird_, would need to pirate it though. Which wasn't in my plans for today.
16:53:48 <ehird_> Then... just make a partition and install it to disk?
16:55:21 <ehird_> You *would* have to use IE for a few seconds, though.
16:55:31 <AnMaster> ehird_, I don't think shrinking an encrypted partition is easy at all
16:55:45 <AnMaster> does windows 7 boot from a usb harddrive?
16:55:46 <ehird_> Plug in a USB drive or something.
16:55:55 <ehird_> It won't be fast, though.
16:55:59 <AnMaster> ok then I just have to find one
16:56:49 <AnMaster> ehird_, windows 7 installer *also* refuses to say what exact piece of hardware is missing a driver
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16:59:02 <ehird_> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ find /usr/bin/ -name \*enigma\*
16:59:54 <ehird_> Oh lol, I think it was starting enigma from ~/NIH/enigma/, presumably my previous cwd.
17:00:01 <ehird_> I never actually installed the package
17:00:11 <ehird_> Selecting previously deselected package enigma-svn.
17:00:11 <ehird_> (Reading database ... 15%
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17:01:41 <ais523> ok, AFAICT standard data types such as ints and strings must a) exist, and b) use duck typing
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17:02:13 <ais523> which is a great concept
17:02:22 <ehird> did I miss anything
17:02:38 <ehird> Annoying GNOME inconsistency: you can't cancel a drag from the menus (adding a shortcut to the desktop or a panel) with ESC. You have to leave go and remove it manually.
17:03:20 <ais523> the main issue is that the input program needs to be represented somehow
17:03:28 <ais523> and if it's opaque, all Feather programs will need to be quines
17:03:38 <ais523> which is a ridiculous restriction to put on such an unrestricted language
17:03:49 <ais523> (well, not true quines, but able to generate a copy of their own source on demand)
17:04:01 <ehird> that would be great, ais523
17:04:06 <ehird> just add that as part of the language
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17:04:16 <ehird> every object responds to "your source", so to speak
17:04:19 <ais523> ehird: that isn't the issue
17:04:25 <ais523> the issue is, what format do you get it in?
17:04:28 <ais523> conclusion: strings exist
17:05:06 <ehird> conclusion: you can interpret some things as srtings
17:05:09 <oerjan> strings are an illusion
17:05:10 <ehird> that doesn't imply any data types
17:05:16 <ehird> otherwise, even Forth has types
17:05:18 <ehird> which is ridiculous
17:05:26 <ais523> anyway, strings are something that the user's likely to want to define at some point
17:05:34 <ais523> and at that point, we want the program to also be that sort of string
17:05:44 <ais523> this is what lead me to the conclusion that standard data types use duck typing
17:05:46 <oerjan> also, string theory is just mathematical masturbation </ducks>
17:06:29 <ehird> ais523: how on earth do you do VI#89?
17:06:58 <ais523> I've actually done that one
17:07:03 <ais523> which bit are you stuck on? the first bit?
17:07:12 <ais523> it involves strategically placed items to block the lasers
17:07:16 <ehird> I get the spade, but then can't enter the path to V
17:07:21 <ehird> because the laser gets me
17:07:24 <ais523> note that you start with a couple of extralives in your inventory
17:07:43 <ais523> the trick's to block the laser with the spade (which is even harder then getting the spade in the first place)
17:07:56 <ais523> in such a way that you can get past the downwards laser too
17:08:05 <ehird> getting the spade is easy, just wait until the laser goes and then shoot downwards
17:08:17 <ehird> (before just now, when I figured that out, I was trying to hit the metal switch stones while the lasers were off - try THAT for impossible)
17:09:42 <ais523> ehird: it wouldn't help, I don't think
17:09:58 <ehird> grr, pidgin is so crashy
17:10:01 <ehird> but empathy is moreso :(
17:13:33 <ehird> i mean what stack are you using
17:13:42 <coppro> trying to find one that works
17:13:53 <coppro> pulseaudio in particular is rather bad right now
17:14:05 <ehird> your hardware sucks :P
17:14:07 <ehird> use ossv4 or something
17:14:24 <ehird> ais523: is there numpad support in enigma?
17:14:35 <ais523> ehird: for what? movement?
17:14:42 <ais523> IIRC, planned but not implemented
17:14:48 <coppro> see, you misunderstand what I want
17:14:56 <coppro> I just want a sound stack that makes all applications have sound
17:15:05 <ehird> use ossv4 or something.
17:15:13 <ehird> and stop whining, if you buy unsupported hardware guess what, it doesn't work
17:15:38 <coppro> this is linux; all hardware is unsupported
17:15:47 <ehird> no, that's not true, stop trolling
17:16:20 <coppro> ehird: fine then. Tell me how to set this up
17:17:22 <ehird> ok then, pay me and i will
17:17:58 <ehird> but uhh, sudo apt-get purge pulseaudio alsa-*; sudo apt-get autoremove --purge; find_and_install_ossv4_package
17:18:06 <ehird> i just use pulseaudio + alsa and it works fine.
17:18:13 <coppro> sure, but pulse hates me
17:18:19 <ehird> well, it might be lagged; I can't tell
17:18:32 <ais523> I just went through the options on the sound menu until I found one that worked
17:18:35 <ais523> in fact, IIRC they all work
17:18:40 <ais523> ALSA, OSS /and/ PulseAudio
17:18:44 <ais523> on this system, at least
17:18:50 <ehird> that's because pulseaudio talks to alsa and oss is just alsa's oss wrapper.
17:18:54 <coppro> done that; the hardware works fine, but not through pulse
17:19:02 <ehird> surprise! three things work if they're all the same
17:20:21 <ais523> ehird: if they're all the same, why is there a choice?
17:20:36 <ehird> ais523: because pulseaudio is an additional layer over ALSA, and so can do more,
17:20:38 <ais523> hmm... what have I messed up here?
17:20:42 <ais523> ah, HackEgo isn't here
17:20:43 <ehird> and because ALSA exposes its OSS interface as, you know, OSS
17:20:45 <ehird> so it shows up as... OSS.
17:21:03 <ehird> the OSS in question is v3, which sucks ass
17:21:08 <AnMaster> ehird, "A required CD/DVD drive device driver is missing. If you have a floppy disk, CD, DVD or USB flash driver, please insert it now." <-- I get that in virtualbox, and I get it when trying to boot the actual computer with the cd too
17:21:13 <AnMaster> and yes that is *after* I select install
17:21:19 <ehird> v4 apparently has sloppy code and could never get into the kernel, but apparently works excellently and with really tiny latency
17:21:26 <AnMaster> so I think it is saying that there is no device driver for the CD *drive*
17:21:36 <coppro> does it let more than one application at once use sound?
17:21:42 <ehird> coppro: are you serious
17:21:43 <ehird> even OSS does that
17:21:50 <ehird> you've gotta be trolling
17:21:58 <coppro> ehird: not over here it doesn't!
17:22:12 <ehird> stop buying unsupported hardware.
17:22:15 <ehird> AnMaster: "don't know"
17:22:32 <ehird> just use not-virtualbox :P
17:22:48 <ehird> AnMaster: you're using the closed source virtualbox right
17:23:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes indeed. But the same message happened on the real hardware!
17:23:28 <ehird> ais523: I can't get any ball to get onto the lines in VIII#43...
17:23:35 <coppro> ehird: some applications can run concurrently. But others refuse to
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17:23:57 <ais523> ehird: I can do 1 on that level, but nor more
17:24:07 <ais523> I suspect there's a trick but don't know what it is
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17:24:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also all the disks are listed in the "browse for driver" in virtualbox (formatted the virtual c: drive from inside virtual win xp to check if it was that that was broken)
17:24:40 <ehird> don't make a partition
17:24:43 <ehird> let it partition it itself
17:25:04 <ehird> ais523: ok, VIII#42 is just evil
17:25:27 <ais523> in hard, though, just wow
17:25:36 <ais523> set your mouseforce up to 15 on negative-friction levels, by the way
17:25:37 <ehird> even on mouse speed 1...
17:25:54 <ais523> you'll need it to resist
17:28:47 <ehird> also, is there a button to update the scores instead ofj ustb eing auto?
17:28:49 <ais523> there are lots of equally what levels
17:28:54 <ais523> and no, I don't think so
17:29:06 <ais523> likewise, disincentives to upload scores too often
17:29:17 <ais523> perhaps it's illmind operating the score download server :)
17:29:45 <ehird> are you kidding, that's like 1,000 numbers
17:29:54 <ehird> he could never afford the bandwidth
17:32:06 <ehird> Mad Data, with the permission of Dongleware, has produced an official Freeware game with the name "Oxyd extra v2.0" (see external links below).
17:32:12 <ehird> wonder when we'll see that in Enigma :P
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17:44:22 * ehird reads someone on reddit call the > quoting syntax a "fancy hack" and using the literal character | instead, and when people point out that that breaks horribly on wrapping lines tells them to resize their browser to be huge
17:46:47 <ais523> not as good as <font color="#FFFFFF">aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa</font> to cause line wrapping
17:47:20 <ehird> I've seen a site emulating table width="100%" with a long sentence coloured as the background congratulating you for finding the secret.
17:47:35 <ehird> "FINO works by withholding all scheduled tasks permanently. No matter how many tasks are scheduled at any time, no task ever actually takes place. This makes FINO extremely simple to implement" --Wikipedia
17:48:11 <ehird> int32 is_computer_on(void)
17:48:12 <ehird> Returns 1 if the computer is on. If the computer isn't on, the value returned by this function is undefined.
17:48:12 <ehird> double is_computer_on_fire(void)
17:48:12 <ehird> Returns the temperature of the motherboard if the computer is currently on fire. If the computer isn't on fire, the function returns some other value.
17:55:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> "FINO works by withholding all scheduled tasks permanently. No matter how many tasks are scheduled at any time, no task ever actually takes place. This makes FINO extremely simple to implement" --Wikipedia <-- a joke? On wikipedia?
17:55:24 <ehird> I *did* omit the ending of that last sentence...
17:55:53 <ehird> ", but useless in practice."
17:57:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and those "is_computer_on" and "is_computer_on_fire" are really in BeOS? ^_Å
17:58:18 <ehird> Well, in some class.
17:59:21 <ais523> someone just asked me what chatroom I was in
17:59:24 <ais523> and I pointed to the logs of this place
17:59:40 <ais523> I have no idea what the effect will be
17:59:51 <ais523> but the firewall on the desktops here blocks port 6667 outbound, so likely nothing we'll notice
18:00:16 <ais523> (as in, beyond the barrier of beingbotheredness compared to the typical difficulty)
18:00:22 <AnMaster> MSNAA provides MS-DOS too it seems
18:00:28 <ehird> it's unlikely that anyone who calls it a chatroom will be able to access IRC.
18:00:45 <ehird> AnMaster: do you pretty much have free range over MSNAA or something?
18:00:50 <ehird> write a script to download all of it
18:01:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you can only install any once and have to install them while you are still studying. Oh and I don't have enough disk space
18:01:25 <ais523> AnMaster: you mean MSDNAA?
18:01:48 <ais523> in theory I can access it here, but I've never tried
18:01:54 <ehird> you can only install them once?
18:01:54 <ehird> what a crock of shit
18:01:56 <ais523> besides, most of what they do isn't compatible with Linux
18:02:47 <AnMaster> however a bit strange because office isn't supposed to be part of this
18:02:58 <ehird> how shocking, everything but the OSs are worthless.
18:03:00 <AnMaster> oh wait, that isn't actually office
18:03:16 <AnMaster> those are various office addons it seems
18:03:27 <AnMaster> ehird, what about: <option value="540">Windows Services for UNIX 3.0</option>
18:03:41 <ehird> interix sucks, probably
18:04:05 <AnMaster> ehird, well first I want to get that win7 pro rtm to actually install
18:04:13 <AnMaster> and if it doesn't even on actual hardware...
18:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, visual studio isn't that useless. I mean, SQL server is way more useless
18:05:23 <ehird> the OSs, visual studio and maybe Interix
18:05:30 <ais523> visual studio is allegedly quite good for development in Microsoft languages
18:05:33 <ehird> how fast are the downloads?
18:05:34 <ais523> although I've hardly used it
18:07:31 <AnMaster> ehird, maxed out connection at home (820 KB/s or so), widly varying at uni (everything from 200 bytes/s to 1.5 MB/s)
18:08:18 <ehird> 820 KiB maxes out that university connection?
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18:08:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and 1.5 MB/s doesn't nearly max out uni connection at all
18:08:59 <ehird> The uni will be able to get at least 12.5MiB/s.
18:09:02 <AnMaster> and I was even within view of base station
18:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, a bit less, I managed 8 mbps off peek hours over the wlan
18:09:40 <AnMaster> but nowhere near that at peak hours
18:09:41 <ehird> Uhh, mbps = megabits.
18:09:54 <ehird> So that's ~1MiB/s.
18:10:04 <ehird> It's not a bit less, it's about 10x less.
18:10:24 <AnMaster> and that is MiB in your notation even
18:10:42 <ehird> That isn't what you said (and that's megabytes, i.e. decimal, i.e. 7.62MiB anyway).
18:10:46 <ehird> Not my notation; the standard notation.
18:11:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I refuse to use MiB when I mean base 1024
18:11:06 <ehird> b is a bit, B is a byte, SI prefixes (except possibly for kiB or KiB) followed by i = binary.
18:11:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and as I said the b was a typo
18:11:30 <AnMaster> according to that it should have been millibyte per second
18:11:32 <ehird> At least you could be consistent while being contrarian.
18:12:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I see you never heard of typos
18:12:31 <ehird> You seem awfully selective about your standards; POSIX is mandatory and unit standards are ignorable. Are we going to start seeing selective application of POSIX selections, or is it atomic at the standard level? Fun and arbitrariness.
18:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, btw windows xp pro 64-bit installs just fine so it isn't a 64-bit issue in general it seems
18:13:23 <AnMaster> ehird, EFI is a standard too. And you can't argue that is good
18:14:08 <ehird> Yes, but there is an alternative to EFI; BIOS.
18:14:29 <ais523> what's wrong with EFI?
18:14:40 <ais523> just curious, not claiming it's necessarily good
18:14:43 <ehird> Anyway, I could just start talking in Lojban and that'd be perfectly valid too. But when we're talking in English, using differing units just to spite the other party is hostile and makes you a jerk.
18:14:55 <ehird> ais523: "what if we used a full OS... to boot the OS?"
18:15:06 <ehird> "with drivers and command shells and a kernel and applications!!! YAAAAY"
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18:15:50 <ais523> the arguments in favour of it I've seen is that BIOS isn't designed for anything but keyboards, screens, floppy drives, parallel ports, and serial ports
18:16:06 <ehird> Very true. On the other hand, EFI is shit.
18:16:28 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a good alternative though: open firmware
18:16:40 <ehird> have you actually used OpenFirmware?
18:16:49 <ehird> the forth is fun but configuring it is a huge bitch
18:16:55 <ehird> and it's not easy to diagnose problems
18:17:01 <ehird> it's fun, but not practical
18:18:06 <ehird> grr, keyserver.ubuntu.com is slow enough that gpg times out
18:20:32 <ehird> Yay, it finally worked.
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18:24:57 <ehird> First few seconds impressions of Chromium on Linux: It still draws its own window border. Ow, my eyes. Hey, it looks like they fixed the font rendering... but... it looks kinda different to normal. What why are they drawing their own scrollbars WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT
18:25:18 <AnMaster> <option value="1136">Microsoft Healthcare Framework SDK</option>
18:25:40 <ehird> Microsoft healthcare? Sounds like a superb idea!
18:25:46 <ais523> ehird: what do you think of Chrome Frame
18:25:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> have you actually used OpenFirmware? <-- yes I have. On a PPC mac
18:25:57 <AnMaster> of course you don't use it a lot normally there
18:25:59 <ehird> ais523: It's a cute hack.
18:26:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, it Just Works there.
18:26:20 <ehird> Even EFI is great if it's working.
18:26:59 <ehird> More impressions: The Greyscale theme hurts my eyes less than that awful blue. Hey, can I get rid of that home button? Yes. Yes I can.
18:27:16 <ehird> "Use system title bar and borders" Yay.
18:27:29 <ehird> Oh, that just makes it look like Opera with its custom tab bar, really. :P
18:27:53 <ehird> You can make it use the GTK theme's colours and icons. That would be nice, but it makes the background of the tab bar be dark brown...
18:27:55 <AnMaster> ehird, screenshot of the custom title bar and such. And screenshot of it now
18:28:07 <ehird> What do you mean, screenshot of it now?
18:28:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well, when it "<ehird> Oh, that just makes it look like Opera with its custom tab bar, really. :P"
18:28:41 <ehird> Well, it's just the window border followed by the custom widgets on a tab bar that make me think of Opera, really.
18:28:43 <ehird> Well, and a black background.
18:29:12 <ehird> Hmm, system colours + drawing its own title bar will probably work best; the brown tab bar looks fine if it's blended in with the window title like on Windows.
18:29:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't used opera for years. When I think of opera I still see the version after they made it freeware
18:29:42 <ehird> http://www.cafesurvey.com/static/images/browsers/opera10_linux.png
18:30:00 <FireFly> That's not the current tab bar
18:30:06 <ehird> But it's close enough.
18:30:13 <AnMaster> the colours there doesn't really fit
18:30:29 <ehird> Yeah, the text hinting in Chromium has some real fuckedupness going on.
18:30:42 <AnMaster> "Finalising installation" "Saving settings". ETA: 8 minutes
18:30:44 <ehird> Letters are detaching from their pals to high-five their unsavory neighbours.
18:30:54 <ehird> that's the ETA for the total installation
18:32:06 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but it has already been "saving settings" for over 4 minutes
18:32:42 <ehird> It's probably frozen.
18:32:52 <AnMaster> not really, harddrive working a lot
18:33:01 <AnMaster> just saving settings all the time
18:33:36 <ehird> Okay, Chromium? Chromium? Why are you drawing our own form widgets. I guess that explains the scrollbar. Stop that.
18:34:25 <AnMaster> maybe I should try the 32-bit win 7 pro... it might work better. Maybe
18:34:41 <AnMaster> at least based on googling on the issue I hit
18:34:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Probably the best idea; there aren't such a wide variety of 64-bit drivers.
18:34:56 <ais523> ehird: any idea why people /don't/ use native widgets?
18:34:59 <ehird> And also, no applications are 64-bit, pretty much, so everything will go in C:\Program Files (x86) anyway.
18:35:08 <ais523> I have done in almost everything
18:35:10 <AnMaster> ais523, because what are the native widgets on linux?
18:35:12 <ais523> except DNA Maze, for some weird reason
18:35:16 <ehird> ais523: Well, Chromium does it on Windows for quite a good reason.
18:35:20 <ehird> AnMaster: It uses gtk, so invalid argument, stfu.
18:35:32 <ais523> on Linux, the native widgets depend on your DE
18:35:33 <AnMaster> ehird, it uses GTK *and* draws it's own?
18:35:49 <ehird> Yes, it draws it is own.
18:36:03 <AnMaster> btw there is a QT theme to use GTK and iirc a GTK theme to use QT
18:36:20 <ehird> One of them has a saveguard against that.
18:36:53 <ais523> you could disable it and then try
18:37:02 <ais523> I wonder when and why it was added, though?
18:37:04 <ehird> It'd just draw blank.
18:37:09 <ehird> Also, because someone tried it? :P
18:37:17 <ais523> it could have been in GTK from the start, but if not, someone must have tried it
18:37:23 <ais523> ok, let's do GTK and Athena at the same time
18:37:47 <ehird> it's in qgtkstyle or whatever
18:38:07 <AnMaster> huh? No need to activate this windows install? *blink*
18:38:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it bugs you later.
18:38:25 <ais523> activation happens after install in Windows
18:38:25 <ehird> and will disable after n days
18:38:30 <ehird> also, you can only install one xp copy so many times
18:38:33 <AnMaster> ais523, yes that is what I thought too
18:38:36 <ais523> you're allowed to use it for 30 days without activationm IIRC
18:38:41 <ehird> have fun downloading an activator
18:38:57 <ais523> ehird: if it's MSDNAA, you could get the activation code pretty easily
18:38:58 <AnMaster> ehird, also I never installed this copy before
18:38:59 <ais523> although only the once
18:39:56 <AnMaster> just iirc it always did it before login before
18:41:42 <ehird> Oh well, no way I'm using Chromium as my main browser.
18:41:54 -!- deschutron has joined.
18:42:04 * ehird deschutes deschutron
18:42:38 <deschutron> i was coming to eavesdrop on some conversation
18:42:52 <ehird> that's illegal, sir
18:43:11 <ehird> we all wonder about irrigation sometimes, deschutron.
18:43:17 <deschutron> i wrote an interactive shell in one of my variants of SNUSP
18:43:23 <ehird> but we just have to get along, you know, and try not to think about irrigation too much, you understand?
18:43:32 <AnMaster> deschutron, are you new here or?
18:43:52 <ehird> he may have been here once, twice or 5746583465 times here before, pick one
18:43:57 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't nice to a new user
18:44:08 <ehird> what, talking about irrigation? i'm so sorry
18:44:15 <ehird> deschutron: i didn't mean to upset your virgin ears :(
18:44:38 <ehird> AnMaster: he's been here before.
18:45:01 <deschutron> anyway i wrote a neat program in an esoteric language. i'd like to show it off
18:45:07 <ais523> and here is a good place
18:45:08 <ehird> absolutely forbidden!
18:45:13 <ais523> when ehird and AnMaster stop bickering, at least
18:45:16 <ehird> ais523: we must fight to the death,.
18:45:21 <ais523> this place could do with being on-topic some of the time at least
18:45:23 <ehird> with commas and full stops,.
18:45:36 <ehird> that'd just be boring
18:45:43 <ais523> I'm here because I find esolangs interesting
18:46:05 <ehird> there's a thing called community and it pretty much requires offtopicity.
18:46:24 <ehird> artificially censoring the channel to one topic helps nobody, it's just antagonistic; the fact is that esolangs move slowly
18:46:33 <ehird> and if someone wants to talk about esolangs we're not exactly going to stop them
18:46:34 <ais523> I wouldn't want an artifical censor
18:46:45 <ehird> that's what being on topic is; conversation flows
18:46:45 <ais523> I'd prefer a /natural/ censor, as in people talked about esolangs because they're a good subject
18:46:50 <ais523> I mean, I was talking about Feather earlier
18:46:52 <ais523> but was mostly ignored
18:46:59 <ehird> because I had nothing to say
18:47:03 <ehird> it was interesting
18:47:04 <ais523> partly because thinking about Feather drives everyone mad, I suppose
18:47:09 <ehird> but I didn't have many comments
18:47:16 <ais523> anyway, I should be able to get a reference interp out relatively soon now I hope
18:47:24 <ais523> which /would/ be progress
18:47:28 <ehird> that's the thing, there isn't enough happening in esolangs to talk about it all the time, and the only way we can have fun esolang discussions is having a community, so...
18:47:39 <ehird> ais523: I still think it's a non-concept
18:47:41 <ais523> not really implementing anything of the language beyond a bare-bones ability to retroactively change the interp
18:47:44 <ais523> which is all you need, of course
18:47:51 <ehird> deschutron: you seriously did not want to ask that
18:47:56 <ais523> deschutron: an unreleased esolang of mine
18:48:03 <ais523> pressing for more details is liable to cause madness
18:48:12 <ais523> especially as /I/ go mad thinking about it, and I invented it
18:48:27 <ehird> deschutron: nice knowing you
18:48:36 <ais523> it's basically an attempt to make a decent prototype-based proper OO programming language
18:48:52 <ais523> except that it involves retroactive changes to things
18:48:57 <ais523> in order to do inheritance, originally
18:49:02 <ais523> and then generalised out into other thins
18:49:04 <AnMaster> so going to try google chrome in the virtualbox
18:49:21 <AnMaster> another alternative would have been opera I guess
18:49:23 <ehird> AnMaster: good idea, but note that the title bar on XP and vista/7 without aero is kinda ugly
18:49:25 <FireFly> Wait, Feather actually _exists_?
18:49:36 <ais523> so the idea is, instead of delegation or anything like that, you simply change all the child objects at the time they were created
18:49:40 <ehird> AnMaster: right, it's just a bit ugly
18:49:46 <ehird> the rest of it's perfect though
18:49:47 <ais523> but as I go mad thinking about it, and nobody else really knows what I mean
18:49:51 <FireFly> Well, exists as in the idea is actually serious
18:49:52 <ais523> there isn't an interp or anything like that yet
18:49:57 <ais523> there are some notes somewhere, but they're wrong
18:49:58 <FireFly> I thought it was an ongoing joke to talk about it
18:50:08 <AnMaster> ehird, cursed be widescreen laptops indeed.
18:50:13 <ais523> FireFly: from ehird's point of view, it is, I don't think he thinks I'm serious
18:50:20 <ais523> and as I said, I go mad thinking about it, so maybe I'm not
18:50:24 <ehird> ais523: I do, I'm just skeptical that the idea can exist, per se
18:50:32 <ehird> ais523: like, it's trying to feel every part of a klein bottle in a 3d world
18:50:32 <AnMaster> ehird, virtualbox window hight < chrome window height.
18:50:36 <ehird> you can project it onto the 3d world in various ways
18:50:40 <deschutron> what do you mean by a retroactive change?
18:50:40 <ehird> but you can never capture every aspect like that
18:50:47 <ehird> is becausey ou'er thinking of different projections
18:50:51 <ehird> and they're inconsistent
18:50:59 <ehird> basically, feather cannot be expressed
18:51:02 <ais523> deschutron: basically, you calculate what state the program would be in if the change had been made at some earlier point in time
18:51:05 <ehird> it's inconsistent in our universe
18:51:07 <ais523> then change the program state to that
18:51:26 <AnMaster> ais523, is it possible to express paradoxes in feather?
18:51:29 <ais523> strangely, the operation needed to do this almost already exists, it's a trivial variant of call/cc, and can easily be implemented in terms of it
18:51:33 <AnMaster> something like killing your own grand-interpreter?
18:51:33 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they cause infinite loops
18:51:41 <ehird> ais523: do you get what I mean about non-concept?
18:51:42 <ais523> although, that isn't a true two-way paradox
18:51:52 <FireFly> ais523, have you ever written/tried to express something of this online?
18:51:58 <FireFly> As in, a .txt document or something
18:52:02 <ais523> FireFly: sort-of, I pasted some notes on pastebin.ca ages ago
18:52:08 <ais523> as I said, though, they're wrong
18:52:14 <ais523> and so I don't know if they're useful or harmful
18:52:35 <deschutron> so a feather program can change the prior state abject it was cloned from, and then all the effects of that change are calculated and applied to the machine's state?
18:52:50 <ais523> deschutron: pretty much
18:52:52 <AnMaster> ehird, chrome sure lacks some options. Like "ask about every cookie"
18:52:56 <ehird> ais523 is ignoring me because i'm crazy :)
18:53:00 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, because that's infeasible
18:53:05 <ehird> because every site uses like 5 cookies
18:53:08 <ais523> ehird: I've used that setting before now
18:53:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you just click "remember for site"
18:53:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Chrome also sends a bunch of details to Google by default and updates in the background, so if you're crazy and paranoid why are you using it?
18:53:51 <ehird> you have to use that Iron fork thing to avoid that
18:53:55 <AnMaster> ehird, well it isn't like I'll use that vm for a lot
18:54:01 <ehird> so why are you bothered
18:54:24 <AnMaster> ehird, because I was evaluating it for possible usage elsewhere
18:54:42 <ehird> well, it's only any good on windows and i don't imagine you use many windows machines...
18:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird, what about antivirus for 64-bit windows?
18:56:01 <FireFly> What about anti-MINDvirus?
18:56:13 <ehird> AnMaster: just use a 32-bit one? I'm pretty sure they work
18:56:14 <deschutron> ais523: your feather idea sounds interesting, though i don't know whether it provides any convenience at all
18:56:16 <ehird> or, use a 64-bit one
18:56:20 <ais523> deschutron: I doubt it does
18:56:31 <ehird> AnMaster: NOD32 is fine if you don't mind pirating, otherwise use the new one Microsoft released which I think is Vista/7 only
18:56:32 <ais523> it seems to provide an incredible amount of power, at the cost of going mad trying to write it
18:56:40 <AnMaster> ehird, antivirus tends to use drivers to hook in to low level
18:56:44 <deschutron> what happens if an object kills its grandfather
18:56:44 <AnMaster> so I doubt a 32-bit one would work
18:56:59 <ais523> deschutron: it doesn't exist in the new timeline
18:57:07 <ehird> The built-in Windows firewall is fine
18:57:07 <ais523> timelines only have to be consistent in one direction
18:57:08 <deschutron> ie wipes the memory of its grabdfather object at a time before its parent was made
18:57:21 <ais523> as in, actions in deleted parts of timelines can affect the current ones
18:57:26 <ehird> AnMaster: mostly, though, you don't get random viruses nowadays
18:57:29 <ehird> at least not with SP3
18:57:43 <ais523> this avoids the grandfather paradox neatly, although not certain other sorts of paradoxes
18:57:51 <ehird> there's basically no known ways to run some code without running something vaguely executable yourself
18:57:52 <AnMaster> ehird, heck this is sp1... installing upgrades atm
18:58:23 <deschutron> but then some results of the change are carried forward, but some are not, right>
18:58:45 <ais523> well, all changes are carried forwards
18:58:50 <ais523> and if that wipes out the source of the change, so be it
18:59:18 <deschutron> suppose you have two separate objects A and B
18:59:19 <ais523> one of the major issues in actual programming (which I've thought about, but not tried) is to ensure that changing things that happened early on don't completely destroy the logic of your program
18:59:31 <ais523> unless, of course, you're doing that deliberately, but why would you?
18:59:36 <ais523> ok, two objects are fine
19:00:06 <deschutron> and A wipes B's grandparent before B is made.
19:00:24 <ehird> ais523: what happens if you make true haven-alwaysbeen false?
19:00:25 <ais523> well, in that timeline, it never existed in the first place
19:00:34 <ehird> does the interpreter just explode infinitely and give up?
19:00:41 <ais523> deschutron: same thing, no paradox under Feather's rules
19:00:54 <ais523> ehird: anything that actually depended on them being different would probably retroactively break
19:01:05 <ais523> leading to something hard to distinguish from undefined behaviour
19:01:08 <ehird> ais523: like, say, the original interpreter
19:01:19 <ehird> which interprets itself, and so BOOM?
19:01:35 <ais523> well, not exactly BOOM, the resulting code would do /something/
19:01:40 <ais523> it would be unlikely to be useful, though
19:01:48 <ais523> I mean, just see what true become: false does in Smalltalk
19:01:58 <ehird> but it can't; you can't interpret the original interpreter if true is false
19:02:03 <ais523> it would be pretty similar, retroactivity doesn't make that any more of a disaster than it is imperatively
19:02:20 <deschutron> so then if an object kills its grandfather, its future actions are nullified, but its past ones are not
19:02:27 <ais523> deschutron: yes, that's it
19:02:38 <ehird> hmm... can time be removed from Feather?
19:02:43 <ais523> ehird: well, yes, so it would probably break before (in that timeline) the program ever got to run
19:02:50 <ehird> like, ther is no progression of time, everything has to be done retroactively
19:02:53 <ais523> ehird: possibly; it depends on what you mean by that
19:03:06 <ais523> everything is immutable in Feather
19:03:06 <ehird> like, isn't the mechanism of advancing in the program redundant if you can manipulate time retroactively?
19:03:10 <ais523> but then, it is in lambda calculus too
19:03:37 <ais523> ehird: I see what you're saying; I think that's the Feather equivalent of a trampoline, or something like taht
19:04:02 <ehird> I don't really understand what I'm proposing, but then I don't understand Feather either
19:04:25 <ehird> it just seems like having everything work retroactively on a single point of unchanging non-time is way more elegant than ugly time and its progression
19:04:29 <ais523> but I'm getting a grasp on how it works simply by observations about what couldn't work, and what I can't find a contradiction in
19:06:46 <deschutron> A has a variable x; x = 0; A sets x's initial value to 10; x = 10
19:06:46 <deschutron> A has a variable x; x = 0; A sets 0 to x + 1; x = 1; A sets x's initial value to 10; x = 1
19:07:30 <ais523> err, what do you mean by "x = 0" here?
19:07:38 <ais523> you can't change the current values of things, only the initial values
19:08:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I know why the ISO doesn't work "error reading" for lots of files on it
19:09:26 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry.
19:10:01 -!- adam_d has quit (Connection timed out).
19:10:13 <AnMaster> and microsoft even made you download an *.exe supposed to download the whole thing
19:10:46 <deschutron> an alternative solution to the grandfather paradox is that the environment detects it and throws an exception, which the program uses as part of its control flow
19:11:19 <ehird> more programs need to have a ui like darcs. i think.
19:11:36 <deschutron> you could have programs deliberately causing paradoxes, just to cause the effects they need to operate. if blocks could be implemented with paradoxes
19:11:40 <Asztal> AnMaster: is that MSDNAA? I had to download visual studio 4 times... the downloader is awful
19:11:58 <ais523> deschutron: well, pretty much every change to the language is a paradox in a way
19:12:07 <ais523> in that the program that caused it means something else in the new language
19:12:22 <ais523> the thing that gets ehird mad is the concept of retroactively changing things in the interpreter itself
19:12:27 <ais523> but it's a generalisation of the same concept, really
19:12:42 <ais523> all you have to do is box it (make it able to change retroactively), and give a copy of it to the program
19:12:44 <ehird> like crazy or upset
19:12:51 <ais523> ehird: well, thinking it won't work
19:12:58 <ehird> no, that's not true
19:13:08 <ehird> and I've never said either of those things
19:13:21 <ehird> there are plenty of things that won't work; I think Feather is more than simply not-working
19:13:27 <ehird> like, if we have willWork(p)
19:13:32 <ehird> you say I think ~willWork(feather)
19:13:40 <ehird> whereas I think you can't even give "feather" a value
19:13:54 <ehird> i.e., it's inexpressable in the logic of our universe, and maybe we need a more flexible universe with better logic to have Feather
19:13:58 <ehird> I'm not entirely serious about it
19:14:04 <ehird> but it would explain the insanity
19:14:08 <AnMaster> <Asztal> AnMaster: is that MSDNAA? I had to download visual studio 4 times... the downloader is awful <-- yes it is
19:14:29 <AnMaster> Asztal, and that will be a bit painful for windows 7 pro...
19:14:30 <ais523> I have a brilliant method for dealing with the apparent causality paradoxen, I think
19:14:36 <ais523> but I don't feel up to explaining it right now
19:14:51 <AnMaster> heck the downloader even said "Checking CRC"
19:15:13 <ehird> you want crc to be reliable on a multi-jiggabyte file?
19:15:24 <AnMaster> ehird, no I want it to use something saner
19:15:37 <ais523> CRC's excellent at detecting accidental errors
19:15:45 <ais523> although it isn't good at detecting deliberate ones
19:16:03 <AnMaster> ais523, it failed in this case. the iso is cut short at 3 GB and it should be something closer to twice that I think
19:16:30 <ehird> DVDs can only do about 4GB normally or thereabouts
19:16:36 <ehird> and Windows 7 doesn't, afaik, require a dual-layer DVD
19:16:40 <ehird> in fact, I know it doesn't for a fact
19:16:54 <AnMaster> does dual side, dual layer even exist?
19:16:56 <ehird> because the burning tool I used told me I could use a single-layer when I gave it a dual-layer to write to
19:17:04 <ehird> dual layer dvds are like 9GB
19:17:30 <ehird> it's 3.9GB, I think
19:17:49 <AnMaster> so dual would be slightly less than 8?
19:18:07 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD%2BR_DL
19:18:11 <Asztal> I tried downloading it from a friend, but I apparently used some version of wget that looped around to -2.1GB when it reached 2GB, and then crashed.
19:18:18 <ehird> 4.7GB single layer
19:18:29 <AnMaster> Asztal, maybe I should download MSDO 6.0 from MSDNAA?
19:18:38 <ehird> i didn't mean double layer
19:18:41 <ehird> i meant double side
19:18:44 <ehird> "~17.08 GB (rare—double-sided, double-layer)"
19:18:56 <ehird> well, okay, don't want
19:19:43 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc they are/were tricky to manufacture
19:19:51 <AnMaster> as in, issues getting them flat when gluing all the layers together
19:19:54 <deschutron> A != B. A changes B's past, B's previous behaviour changes, A reads from B and prints to screen. A changes B's past again, B's previous behaviour changes, A reads from B again. B is effectively a method. no paradoxes occur here either
19:19:57 <AnMaster> was years ago I read that though
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19:20:06 <ehird> i could do with a non-flat dvd
19:20:10 <deschutron> A changes A's past. A becomes undefined. An exception is thrown. A's creator receives it and reacts to it.
19:20:17 <ehird> like, I'd totally love an orb storage mechanism
19:20:24 <ais523> deschutron: that sort of thing seems reasonable
19:20:25 <ehird> there's a tray in front of the monitor
19:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. As decoration. Doesn't actually work in a computer though
19:20:28 <deschutron> let A's creator = C, and look back in time to before A existed.
19:20:28 <ehird> and you throw it in
19:20:30 <ehird> and it shoots it into the reader
19:20:38 <deschutron> C creates A to do some stuff for it. C waits for a paradox exception. C recieves and knows that A has done its work. C performs its next task.
19:20:40 <ais523> worryingly, I think you probably /have/ to program in that sort of way, and that's what makes Feather an esolang
19:20:46 <ehird> get the beautifully-decorated album orb from the shelf
19:20:50 <ehird> throw it into the monitor's tray
19:20:54 <ais523> although, you wouldn't exactly get a paradox exception
19:20:56 <ehird> it's sucked in and starts reading
19:20:59 <deschutron> It is undefined whether A did anything, but the output cannot be undone. C has successfully manipulated time to its own ends. The user's experience is as if they are travelling in a Tardis.
19:21:03 <ais523> you'd just find that the object you just created nevertheless no longer exists
19:21:07 <ais523> which would be a giveaway
19:21:11 <oerjan> the orb storage will be short-lived, after everyone gets fed up with fetching them after they roll away
19:21:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, well I'm fed up with cds/dvds falling on floor and being hard to pick up
19:22:12 <oerjan> i am slightly worried by the fact AnMaster seems to get my jokes best these days
19:22:18 <ais523> deschutron: have you seen the TRDS extension to Befunge?
19:22:25 <ais523> it's not unlike Feather, in a way
19:22:28 <ais523> just doesn't go nearly as far
19:22:38 <ais523> basically, it lets you preserve and rewind state
19:22:42 <deschutron> i think i might have just found a possible line between what is undone and what isn't
19:22:48 <ais523> Deewiant here understands it well enough to have writen a testsuite
19:22:55 <ehird> i think cubes would be better than orbs
19:23:06 <ehird> but those'd be less fun to decorate
19:23:09 <ais523> deschutron: I/O is a real pain in Feather, for this sort of reason
19:23:21 <ais523> I'm planning to get the rest of the language done first and then see if there's a natural way to do I/O
19:23:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, sqrt(-garfield) was really funny today IMO
19:23:30 <ais523> as it isn't all that important computationally
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19:24:11 <deschutron> you could have it such that each object has two methods of communication: one convenient one like functions or direct manipulation, and one other like writing to standard out
19:24:12 <AnMaster> <ehird> but those'd be less fun to decorate [your xmas tree with]
19:24:21 <AnMaster> wait what, "logging off" in windows is WAY from the center
19:24:35 <ehird> AnMaster: that's the design
19:24:40 <ais523> deschutron: well, the language is called Feather because the language itself is bare-bones
19:24:41 <deschutron> actions in the convenient are undone by changes to previous states
19:24:42 <ehird> normally, in the login screen, to the left is "welcome"
19:24:50 <ehird> and to the right (where that logging off text is) is the users
19:24:54 <ais523> and you're meant to use standardish headers, etc, to create the language features you want at runtime
19:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? I tend to use classical login yeah
19:25:13 <ais523> that sort of thing is the sort of thing that would be perfect to go in a library
19:25:14 <ehird> the XP-style login is ugly but convenient; click type enter beats type type type tab type enter
19:25:21 <deschutron> output to the second channel is preserved as whatever it was when it was written
19:25:32 <AnMaster> ehird, you forgot ctrl-alt-del before login
19:25:36 <ehird> IMO Feather should be made in a way so that you can add any OS interaction you want, somehow
19:25:38 <deschutron> the user only receives info if it passes through the second channel
19:25:42 <ehird> AnMaster: err, why?
19:25:47 <ehird> oh, classical-stle
19:25:55 <ais523> deschutron: the real challenge with output is actually to not reprint it every time you get a change
19:25:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you have to on the xp computers at uni at least
19:26:03 <lament> let's do it classical-style baby
19:26:10 <ehird> classical login just reminds me of NT.
19:26:18 <ais523> but you could just store an output pointer in an object, together with the output, and reprint only if it changes
19:26:43 <ais523> ehird: there's a Linux equivalent of control-alt-del before login too, but it's more interesting
19:27:02 <deschutron> you could have it such that when the actions of the past are recalculated, the standard out calls that should have happened are not executed
19:27:06 <AnMaster> ehird, relative windows 3.1 I mean
19:27:11 <ais523> Alt-(SysRq,K) terminates all programs but the login screen
19:27:16 <ais523> so you know after pressing it that you're at a real login screen, not a fake one
19:27:28 <ehird> nt was pretty much identical to 3.1 at first, then much shittier than 95
19:27:30 <ais523> deschutron: or executed and ignored, probably easier in practice
19:27:44 <ehird> "easier in practice"
19:28:15 <AnMaster> <ais523> Alt-(SysRq,K) terminates all programs but the login screen <-- eh? On windows?
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19:28:20 <ais523> AnMaster: no, on Linux
19:28:23 <deschutron> i mean no bytes get sent to standard out, but all variable changes still occur
19:28:27 <ais523> at the kernel level, so usermode programs can't fool it
19:28:32 <ais523> deschutron: yes, exactly
19:28:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and no it doesn't. It kills even getty but getty respawns
19:28:45 <ais523> everything but init, then
19:28:51 <ais523> as init's responsible for the respawning
19:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, no, only current terminal
19:29:09 <oerjan> AnMaster: a bit black humor, i think
19:29:12 <AnMaster> ais523, and it doesn't work very well on gdm
19:29:32 <oerjan> <AnMaster> oerjan, sqrt(-garfield) was really funny today IMO
19:29:36 <ehird> there ought to be a tool for a program designed to be a tool for programming and maintaining, but isn't just an "editor" of text files, and isn't a big bloated IDE because it uses other tools to do the work
19:29:52 <ehird> "programmer" would work, but is sorta taken. :P
19:30:02 <AnMaster> oerjan, thought you were making some bad pun on "kill getty", "terminal", "black"
19:30:11 <AnMaster> but that would be even below your level
19:30:46 <AnMaster> deschutron, I'm not. Short summary?
19:30:50 <ais523> I know of it, but not much
19:31:16 <deschutron> a 2D brainfuck variant, inspired by PATH, and better than PATH
19:31:24 <ehird> ais523: you said "yay snusp" before :P
19:31:39 <ais523> yes, it doesn't get enough love
19:31:40 <ehird> anyway, whatever the term is, I think I'm going to make one of them with a UI sort of like darcs.
19:32:56 <ehird> muggles snuggle to snusp
19:33:27 <deschutron> i had the idea to add a fork instruction to it
19:33:50 <deschutron> where the parent and the child are automatically piped to each other
19:34:41 <deschutron> do you think that would be in keeping with the spirit of the language?
19:35:36 <ais523> with Bloated SNUSP, definitely
19:35:40 <ais523> unless it already exists in that
19:36:03 <ais523> in which case it would still be in keeping with the spirit, just redundant
19:36:15 <deschutron> Bloated SNUSP has an instruction to create new threads
19:37:01 <AnMaster> bloated brainfuck basically? :D
19:37:03 <deschutron> the new thread shares memory with the original, and the two then takes turns to execute instructions
19:37:26 <AnMaster> deschutron, yes but the idea of bloating brainfuck seems so backwards
19:38:06 <deschutron> yes it does, it destroys the minimalism
19:38:38 <deschutron> but snusp offers something other than pure minimalism. it offers a chance to visually see algorithms
19:39:37 <deschutron> the instructions are very orthogonal, and the program's memory structure is simple, so there is something nice about it
19:40:00 <ais523> AnMaster: Brainfork is pretty elegant as a language
19:40:29 <lament> why "take turns" as opposed to true concurrency?
19:40:44 <ehird> predictability, I presume
19:40:46 <ais523> turn-taking is easier to implement for the person writing the compiler/interp
19:40:49 <deschutron> that was the way bloated snusp's threading was designed
19:40:59 <ehird> lament: you can't really do a lock in brainfuck in the proper way
19:41:03 <AnMaster> why exactly is the driver called "Microsoft TCP/IP version 6". And the IPv4 one is just "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)"
19:41:14 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
19:41:18 <ehird> and the answer is because
19:41:19 <ais523> you /can/ do a lock in INTERCAL in the proper way
19:41:29 <AnMaster> maybe it indicates that it isn't compatible with the standard one
19:41:37 <lament> ehird: use an empty memory cell, increment it while your'e busy, then decrement
19:41:37 <ais523> semaphores, mutexes, all those primitives are easily implemented in terms of INTERCAL's more powerful primitives
19:41:40 <deschutron> i came up with a different way of multithreading for snusp
19:41:45 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it doesn't
19:41:48 <deschutron> it is based on the fork() function in unix
19:41:49 <AnMaster> <lament> lame <lament> and boring <-- agreed
19:41:53 <AnMaster> ehird, was trying to joke about it
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19:43:37 <deschutron> normally, a snusp program can only communicate via stdin and stdout.
19:43:43 <deschutron> what if when you created a new thread, it could only communicate with other threads through stdin and stdout?
19:45:55 <AnMaster> ok so lets see.. 1) sp 2 2) more upgrades 3) more upgrades, still no sight of sp3
19:46:06 <AnMaster> and there will be a reboot after batch 3
19:48:38 <AnMaster> ie 6 was quite a nostalgia trip :D
19:52:15 <AnMaster> ehird, this sound interesting: <option value="1727">Windows 7 Debugging Symbols Checked Build (x86) - (English)</option>
19:52:52 <FireFly> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=second+squared+per+second <-- W|A gives bogus output?
19:53:05 <FireFly> The box with the 2 in it doesn't look... good
19:53:21 <AnMaster> " To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser " <-- err "any output" might be more accurate
19:54:14 <ehird> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090927151401988
19:54:18 <AnMaster> <FireFly> The box with the 2 in it doesn't look... good <-- how should it look instead of (s^2)/s
19:54:23 <ais523> ehird: you read GrokLaw?
19:54:34 <ehird> {2[[1]], Comparison as <>PhysicalLookup(2[[1]], PhysicalQuantitySingularName), CalculateScan`UnitScanner`Private`KnownMUnitToQuantityComparison(2, {CalculateUnits`UnitTable`MUnit(1, Unit(First[{}]))})[[CalculateScan`UnitScanner`Private`KnownMUnitToQuantityComparison(2, {CalculateUnits`UnitTable`MUnit(1, Unit(First[{}]))})]]}:
19:54:40 <ehird> ais523: no, but reddit does
19:54:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: uh <-- uh about what?
19:54:56 <ehird> nothing, AnMaster.
19:54:58 <AnMaster> FireFly, doesn't look like that here
19:55:12 <ehird> AnMaster has no scrollbar
19:55:16 <ehird> and his screen is tiny
19:55:28 <ehird> clearly not, or you would have scrolled down
19:55:31 <AnMaster> FireFly, enabled JS in firefox
19:55:41 <ais523> oh that reminds me of the bit about Silverlight being ported to Moblin
19:55:48 <FireFly> Which is below Input interpretation
19:55:49 <ais523> which is weird; I don't get why they aren't using Moonlight
19:56:01 <ais523> unless Microsoft want two competing Silverlight impls on Linux?
19:56:52 * ehird has a rather stupid idea
19:57:00 <ehird> Ubuntu/kFreeBSD or Ubuntu/kHURd
19:57:35 <ais523> well, there's Debian GNU/BSD
19:57:45 <ehird> I know Debian/k{FreeBSD,HURD} exist
19:57:58 <ehird> it wouldn't be hard, just take debian's kernel and base packages and add them to a fork of ubuntu's repo
19:58:05 <ais523> Nexenta is Ubuntu/kOpenSolaris, IIRC
19:58:09 <ehird> then remove the linux packages, tweak the installed base package
19:58:12 <ehird> rebuild EVERYTHING
19:58:55 <ais523> you wouldn't need to rebuild things that weren't linking against the kernel or libc, and had no OS-dependent code
19:59:04 <AnMaster> ehird, FireFly: what on: http://omploader.org/vMmdlMA
19:59:21 <AnMaster> please tell me where the bad stuff is there
19:59:31 <ehird> AnMaster: note the loading bar.
20:00:16 * ehird wonders what petname is
20:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, see the "unauthicated" at the top?
20:00:36 <ais523> (only mentioning that because it's pretty similar to a NetHack option name)
20:00:39 <AnMaster> basically it remembers ssl certs
20:00:39 <ehird> in that screenshot, pay attention
20:00:47 <ehird> AnMaster: uh, what
20:00:49 <ais523> oh, I don't follow links
20:00:55 <ais523> so I find it hard to think of them as context
20:01:01 <ehird> ais523: then stop asking people when they talk about them
20:01:02 <AnMaster> ehird, so when I go to my internet bank it verifies the fingerprint is the same. And displays that.
20:01:09 <ehird> your personal hangup about clicking links is unique
20:01:16 <ais523> it gets me out of trouble
20:01:16 <ehird> AnMaster: firefox does that.
20:01:22 <ais523> this way has fewer rickrolls
20:01:24 <AnMaster> ehird, um, only that cert is valid
20:01:24 <ehird> ais523: so does /ignore *
20:01:30 <AnMaster> ehird, not that it is the same as you stored
20:01:33 <ehird> except it impairs conversation just the same
20:01:36 <AnMaster> so it doesn't change and someone faked it
20:01:38 <ehird> AnMaster: not in recent versions
20:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, mhm? I had that extension since 3.0 at least
20:02:03 <ehird> at least in 3.5, I think
20:02:16 <AnMaster> ehird, that is firefox 3.0.14 you are looking at
20:02:26 <ehird> there's a 3.5 package in jaunty.
20:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it is universe or something, not officially supported it says
20:03:00 <ehird> yes, so're most things
20:03:06 <ehird> have you noticed that there is no official ubuntu support?
20:03:10 <ehird> unless you count expensive telephone calls
20:03:18 <ehird> irc, forums ... none of that is official
20:04:29 -!- deschutron has left (?).
20:06:06 <ais523> ehird: there is, but you have to pay for it
20:06:19 <ehird> "unless you count"
20:06:21 <ais523> I don't see why there'd be official unpaid support if there's official paid suport
20:06:25 <ehird> are you ignoring random lines as well as links?
20:06:25 <ais523> ehird: well, I do count that
20:06:31 <ehird> yes, and nobody uses it
20:06:33 <ais523> as that's exactly what the official support is
20:06:36 <ehird> http://imgur.com/CSopO.jpg, outside reddit offices
20:06:39 <ais523> and I'm relatively sure some people do
20:06:54 <ais523> when I bought this computer, Dell offered me bundled paid support for Ubuntu if I wanted it
20:07:02 <ais523> I declined, but there are some people who might accept
20:07:21 <ais523> and companies would want to accept even more; after all, RHEL is (still) a success in the business world
20:07:28 <ais523> and it's the same principle there
20:08:49 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day, btw
20:09:11 -!- Asztal has quit (Success).
20:09:25 <AnMaster> why is "microsoft update" so much slower for the "checking for updates" step than "windows update"
20:10:24 -!- Asztal has joined.
20:10:37 <AnMaster> ehird, sure there is sp 3 for x64 too?
20:10:40 <ais523> because Microsoft is bigger than Windows?
20:10:48 <AnMaster> because no such thing is listed
20:10:56 <AnMaster> ais523, well no other MS software installed atm
20:11:15 <ais523> really? You have Windows bundled with nothing at all?
20:11:27 <ais523> I'm pretty sure standard Windows installs have more than bare bones
20:11:46 <AnMaster> ais523, hm? well there is IE, but that was updated by windows update too
20:12:19 <AnMaster> ais523, this is newly installed windows xp pro x64
20:12:37 <ais523> AnMaster: does it come with things like Notepad/
20:12:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that is part of windows...
20:12:48 <ais523> (not that Notepad would likely need much updating...)
20:12:53 <AnMaster> ais523, and is updated by windows update
20:13:22 <AnMaster> ais523, microsoft update updates office and other such "non-bundled" apps. But none of those are installed
20:13:37 <ais523> maybe it's installing them so it has something to update
20:14:37 <AnMaster> ais523, plus I fail to see why it would take any longer than apt-get update followed by the upgrade part that checks for upgrades
20:14:52 <AnMaster> since there are fewer packages, just updates
20:15:09 <AnMaster> a text file with last hotpatch level in would be enough
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20:33:56 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, sure there is sp 3 for x64 too?
20:34:28 <AnMaster> ehird, odd then that it isn't listed hm
20:34:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> ais523, plus I fail to see why it would take any longer than apt-get update followed by the upgrade part that checks for upgrades
20:34:39 <ehird> hardware checking, software checking
20:34:41 <ehird> for compatibility etc
20:34:50 <ehird> and whether the upgrade is required for this software set
20:35:10 <AnMaster> ehird, shouldn't take that long, and you could cache results and such
20:37:28 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1").
20:37:52 <ais523> stop imp-bombing #esoteri
20:38:58 <ais523> assuming an IP ends up in my code before impomatic's
20:39:19 <oerjan> but imps are hillarious
20:40:56 <ais523> not when they overwrite the logs
20:41:53 <ehird> grr, my mouse keeps losing connection
20:41:56 <ehird> better replace the batteries
20:42:24 <ais523> I switched to a wired mouse for that reason
20:42:54 <ehird> they've lasted for at least a month
20:44:05 <FireFly> Wireless mouse with rechargable batteries <3
20:44:23 <ehird> you still have to charge them.
20:44:24 <FireFly> And charger where you put the mouse when you leave the computer
20:44:36 <ehird> that only works if you leave the computer :D
20:44:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:44:49 <FireFly> As opposed to other people here :)
20:45:34 -!- Azstal has joined.
20:46:26 <AnMaster> hilarious, I opened shut down dialog to restart XP for upgrade. and after I click ok the "there are uninstalled upgrades, reboot now/later" dialog pops up
20:46:41 <AnMaster> to be promptly killed by the shutting down process a few seconds later
20:46:53 <ehird> Yeah, that's so hilarious. Could never happen in Linux or anything.
20:47:06 <AnMaster> of course it *could*, but I never seen it happen
20:48:19 <ehird> Addition to the management console in Windows. If the MMC fails to complete a normal shut down, the SMS.MSC file may be removed from the system. As a result, the shortcut is not found when the Systems Management Server Administrator console is started. See the added into link below for a solution. Note: This file type can become infected and should be carefully scanned if someone sends you a file with this extension.
20:48:32 <ehird> "management console", I guess.
20:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I know that they are "management console" files. I was wondering more like "are they *.dlls basically that are loaded into msc.exe or what"?
20:49:43 <AnMaster> the defrag GUI is an example of a *.msc
20:50:01 <ehird> Unless you pronounce * "star".
20:50:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, run file(1) on one and see.
20:50:36 <ais523> I'm not sure how to pronounce it at all
20:50:47 <ais523> if a word actually has no pronunciation, do you use "a" or "an" before it?
20:51:03 <ais523> my mind reads the *. as something nonverbal when I'm reading to myself
20:51:08 <ehird> Or, if you're annoying and pedantic:
20:51:10 <ehird> "An asterisk dot em ess cee".
20:51:10 <ais523> which is weird, as I normally read text as words
20:51:21 <ehird> well, the others are stupid
20:51:27 <ehird> and pronounce dot but not the asterisk
20:52:03 <ehird> ais523: maybe "a[n] *.msc" is pronounced "an em ess cee file".
20:54:22 <ais523> incidentally, I did verbalise it as "star dot" when I forced it into words
20:54:30 <ais523> probably based on the common verbalisation of the DOS idiom *.*
20:55:31 <ehird> I refer to this place as "esoteric" or, if in a clarifactory (so a word) mood, "the esoteric programming languages channel". Admittedly I don't actually have many chances to mention it IRL.
20:55:48 <ehird> Well, I mostly say "the esoteric... thi*recognition*ng, right"
20:56:04 <ehird> If you can use mostly for an occurrence as common as dodos.
20:56:53 <AnMaster> <ehird> Unless you pronounce * "star". <-- no, "thingy"
20:57:02 <oerjan> ehird: so do you often apply clarifaction?
20:57:22 <ehird> I guess clarificatory is a better word.
20:58:15 <fizzie> When speaking of IRC channels in real life, I use "risu-<channel>", which I guess is a bit like "hash-<channel>". (Though "risu" is a shortening of the word "risuaita" commonly used in Finnish for that character; literally translated it'd be "stick fence" or "twig fence" or something.)
20:58:19 <ehird> AnMaster: m is pronounced em, so yes, an m.
20:58:27 <ehird> m-s-c = em ess see.
20:58:38 <ehird> Msc isn't really pronouncable. Musk doesn't count.
20:58:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you can pronounce without vowels
20:58:53 <ehird> fizzie: twig fence esoteric
20:59:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Thus "isn't really pronounceable".
20:59:11 <ehird> I add in words for a reason, guys.
20:59:17 <fizzie> ehird: Maybe I'll start using "twig-<channel>" in English; that's bound to be confusing enough.
20:59:42 <ehird> irc ball freenode ball net ... what's /?
20:59:45 <fizzie> "The other day on twig-esoteric, ehird was waggling his eyebrows." (Sorry, I couldn't figure out any more realistic event.)
21:00:15 <ehird> irc ? double-twig irc ball freenode ball net spear twig esoteric
21:00:27 <ehird> Technically it should be irc://irc.freenode.net/esoteric without the twig, but eh.
21:00:36 <oerjan> the next day, he was haggling his eyeballs
21:00:36 <ehird> For your convenience:
21:00:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:00:40 <fizzie> I guess you mean double-spear there.
21:01:47 <ehird> ais523: what are :, / and # in Nethack?
21:01:58 <ehird> first one's newt, isn't it
21:02:15 <ehird> Deewiant: does . have a name?
21:02:27 <ehird> or is it just ... ground
21:02:49 <ais523> ehird: commands, or on the ground?
21:02:56 <Deewiant> I don't think any of the characters have official Nethack names :-P
21:02:59 <ais523> as commands: look here, describe glyph, extended command
21:03:14 <ais523> on the ground: reptile (most commonly a newt), wand, and corridor
21:03:23 <ais523> well, other things than corridors are possible too for #
21:03:25 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:03:26 <ais523> but corridors are the most common
21:03:27 <ehird> so does . have a name on the ground? :P
21:03:37 <ais523> ehird: use ; to look at it
21:03:43 <ais523> it's something complicated
21:03:44 <ehird> I don't have nethack open
21:03:47 <oerjan> wait, newts are not reptiles
21:03:56 <ais523> like "floor or ice or a drawbridge or ..."
21:04:05 <ehird> irc reptile double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric
21:04:06 <ais523> oerjan: sorry, amphibian
21:04:08 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:04:13 <ehird> irc amphibian double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric
21:04:17 <ehird> irc newt double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric
21:04:21 <ais523> well, either in NetHack, it's not all that picky
21:04:27 <ehird> ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ nethack
21:04:27 <ehird> The program 'nethack' can be found in the following packages:
21:04:28 <ehird> Try: sudo apt-get install <selected package>
21:04:32 <ehird> nethack: command not found
21:04:35 <ehird> I'm kind of offended it considers the others acceptable alternatives
21:04:39 <fizzie> And if you want the full list for S_LIZARD: newt, gecko, iguana, baby crocodile, lizard, chameleon, crocodile, salamander.
21:04:42 <ais523> ehird: they're all the console version
21:04:45 <AnMaster> 10 reboots and still not done yet. God-fucking-damn windows update
21:04:48 <ais523> the other two have graphical versions in the same binary
21:04:55 <ais523> but are console by default unless opened via the GUI
21:05:00 <ais523> also, nethack-qt's GUI is broken
21:05:09 <ehird> i don't care, unless the two others have become way better recently it's sacrelidge
21:05:10 <ais523> so you only have one viable alternative for graphical play
21:05:21 <ehird> also, how is it broken?
21:05:31 <ehird> heh, it even uses qt3
21:05:31 <ais523> let me get a screenshot for you, it'll be obvious from that
21:05:39 <oerjan> fizzie: what, no raptors?
21:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the GTK one look like?
21:06:04 <ehird> Wow, Qt 3's default theme is ugly
21:06:10 <ehird> AnMaster: who said it has one?
21:06:21 <ais523> AnMaster: it used to use athena widgets
21:06:28 <ais523> it became unmaintained for that reason and was dropped
21:06:28 <ehird> ugh, the qt tiles are really ugly
21:06:32 <ais523> X11 is also athena, but saner
21:06:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I quite like the qt one here
21:06:56 <AnMaster> well the console one is obviously better
21:07:18 <ais523> there: http://imgur.com/6jeoK.png
21:07:50 <ehird> doesn't happen for me
21:07:51 <ais523> AnMaster: presumably your version actually works, then
21:08:04 <ais523> ehird: ah, you installed nethack-qt?
21:08:07 <AnMaster> ais523, the default font is way to large you have to change it to saner
21:08:07 <ehird> ais523: aargh, why is your applications menu indented?
21:08:09 <ais523> maybe they actually fixed that problem
21:08:10 <ehird> that totally breaks fitt's law
21:08:18 <ais523> ehird: there's a button in the top-left
21:08:19 <ehird> your show desktop and trash too
21:08:22 <ais523> that I use more than the menu itself
21:08:34 <ais523> I took all the decoration off the button to save space
21:08:38 <ais523> so it just looks like a blank space
21:08:49 <ais523> so I can fit programs into a larger space
21:08:50 <ehird> right, I you do indeed have truly anemic screen space.
21:08:56 <ais523> (most commonly I use that for battle for wesnoth)
21:08:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't get gnome to show the hide panel on only *ONE* side
21:09:08 <ehird> who cares, both panels are valuable
21:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I have hide ones too
21:10:18 <ehird> oops, forgot to start dropbox
21:10:30 <fizzie> Speaking of nethack, are they still making Falcon's Eye, or did they replace that with some other project or something?
21:10:38 <ehird> AnMaster: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nethack-x11.png
21:10:51 <ais523> fizzie: Vulture's is a fork that's more recently developed
21:10:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: Didn't it die like 10 years ago?
21:11:16 <fizzie> Deewiant: No, there's a newspost from 2002.
21:11:39 <fizzie> What, is it 2009 already?
21:12:00 <fizzie> I have a "starts with 2, must be recent" reflex.
21:12:06 <ehird> AnMaster: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nethack-x11.png
21:12:37 <ehird> and I forgot to blur my highly-sensitive taskbar of a submission from reddit, two people, IRC and some terminals!
21:12:45 <AnMaster> ehird, are you 100% sure that there is SP3 for XP x64?
21:12:58 <ehird> Windows XP x64 SP3
21:12:58 <ehird> 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: 9 Mar
21:12:58 <ehird> Actually you can install SP3 on x64 versions and if you use either WindowsUpdate or MicrosoftUpdate you will be prompted to install it ...
21:13:01 <ehird> 64-Bit Windows XP Service Pack 3? - Don't think so... at least for ...
21:13:02 <ehird> 14 Dec 2007 ... SP3 for Windows XP x64 = SP3 for Windows Server 2003, because Windows XP x64 is based on Windows Server 2003 and not on Windows XP 32bits. ...
21:13:14 <ehird> PEOPLE ARE CONFLICTED
21:13:24 <ais523> ehird: that nethack-x11 looks just like mine
21:13:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it seems you just listed three different opinions
21:13:34 <ais523> pretty ugly and not particularly usable, in other words
21:13:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Two google results.
21:13:46 <AnMaster> ehird, and it isn't listed on windows update or microsoft update
21:13:49 <ais523> also it has an annoying problem with the keyboard controls
21:13:55 <ehird> wow, the nethack-x11 tiles are really tiny
21:14:04 <ais523> NetHack has swappable tilesets
21:14:14 <ais523> there are larger better-looking ones, but it's a pain to figure out how to use them
21:15:04 <ehird> I'll stick to my current strategy, which is not playing NetHack :P
21:16:36 <AnMaster> ehird, what is wrong with console?
21:17:01 <fizzie> I would have assumed AnMaster would use nethack-el+nethack-lisp.
21:17:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, I use just plain nethack in facrt
21:17:39 <ehird> TAEB should be rewritten to use nethack-el, because of WHY GOD WHY.
21:18:01 <ais523> wouldn't work on existing public servers
21:18:03 <ais523> which is the whole point
21:18:35 <ehird> Due to, you know, Emacs Lisp.
21:18:39 <ehird> "# All the beauty that comes with Emacs" --nethack-el features lis
21:18:45 <ehird> I hope they don't mean cosmetically...
21:19:01 <fizzie> I've been using the console variant with IBMgraphics, though I don't really play.
21:19:38 <ehird> Occasionally I pick up nethack and think, yeah, I can totally play this for years and years and finally ascend, I'm up for that kind of long-term project
21:19:45 <ehird> and them I'm like fuck it, this is just dragging on
21:19:57 <fizzie> can't type "'", apparently.
21:20:53 <ehird> Does anyone use nethack-lisp directly, I wonder.
21:20:58 <ehird> Like, in a console, with the Lisp.
21:21:11 <fizzie> I've been to the bottom of the Gehennom a couple of times, sort-of casually walking around.
21:21:40 <ehird> "Hey dudes, what's hanging?"
21:21:45 <ehird> "I'm just here to mull about."
21:22:03 <ehird> I find it interesting that the owner of gehennom.org "doesn't really play". :P
21:22:35 <fizzie> I just had trouble inventing a sensible domain name to register.
21:22:59 <fizzie> After all, I've been the owner of befunge.org too, and I don't really write befunge either. I mean, in a serious fashion.
21:23:05 <ehird> heikkikallasjoki.org sounds memorable and obvious to me!
21:23:20 <ehird> You poor Swedes and your inability to name sanely anything after yourself. :P
21:23:24 <fizzie> I used to have a nethack-themed 404 page in gehennom.org, maybe that counts.
21:23:28 <ehird> why did I type swedes.
21:23:47 <ehird> oh right, sweden is finland.
21:26:49 <fizzie> I seem to have a ~/.nethackrc.console; I didn't know (or remember, anyway) that that sort of suffix notation existed.
21:27:29 <ehird> i wish nethack would remember my settings.
21:27:59 <ehird> <property key="LevelMusicFile" value="sound/Emilie.xm"/>
21:30:44 <ehird> ais523: Experimental#4, bash yourself and the white ball into the portal
21:31:15 <ais523> they should change the scroll mode, as it messes up actual testing
21:31:43 <ehird> hmmm... it has oxyds, right?
21:31:45 <ehird> so it might be solvable
21:33:34 <ais523> you can't get at the ones behind the glass
21:33:44 <ais523> actually, if it is glass (I can't remember)
21:33:48 <ais523> you might be able to use a laser and mirrors
21:33:50 <ehird> isn't there another stone to do that :)
21:34:23 <ais523> what, make a stone into glass?
21:34:31 <ehird> well, just to hit them
21:34:45 <AnMaster> <fizzie> I just had trouble inventing a sensible domain name to register. <-- you own "gehennom.org"?
21:34:48 <ehird> i mean, hit the oxyds
21:34:53 <ais523> it's powered by extralives but there's an extralife dispenser on there somewhere
21:35:05 <ais523> OTOH, hitting at that range would be a pain
21:35:16 <fizzie> I used is as my "default domain" before registering this zem.fi thing.
21:35:32 <ehird> ais523: would be pretty impressive to win the level, though
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21:35:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> st_spitter <-- huh? Not in last release?
21:36:06 * ehird wonders wtf Pentomino I is
21:36:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it is I think, I may have the name wrong though
21:36:15 * AnMaster hopes windows 7 download works now
21:36:22 <ais523> although with a different animation
21:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well I might have 1.0 or so
21:36:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what does the object to
21:36:47 <ais523> you hit it and it shoots a cannonball
21:36:51 <ais523> which destroys floor and opens oxtds
21:36:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, how was http://gehennom.org/doc/knock/ generated?
21:36:58 <ais523> doing so costs extralives
21:37:12 <AnMaster> they layout seems VERY VERY familiar
21:37:23 <ehird> the linux documentation project uses it and stuff.
21:37:31 <ehird> and i think debian install guides
21:37:32 <AnMaster> CONTENT="Modular DocBook HTML Stylesheet Version 1.79"><LINK
21:37:32 <ehird> and all that stuff
21:37:41 <ehird> AnMaster: for whitespace
21:37:49 <ehird> there's whitespace between those in HTML
21:37:51 <ehird> this can mess up CSS etc
21:37:55 <ehird> also preformatted stuff
21:37:59 <ehird> basically, generating html is a bitch
21:38:01 <ehird> and this makes it simpler
21:38:32 <ehird> that's uglier, but easier.
21:38:36 <ehird> then again they don't indent
21:38:41 <ehird> so it is pretty silly.
21:39:07 <fizzie> Yes, it's done with DocBook.
21:39:11 <AnMaster> "<ehird> so *it *is pretty silly."
21:39:18 <ehird> AnMaster: * starts a correction.
21:39:30 <ehird> use levenshtein distance or something to find out what to correct ;P
21:39:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what, just typing the correction?
21:39:46 <ehird> only you use that in here
21:39:49 <ehird> maybe swedes do it a lot
21:39:52 <ehird> but definitely not on english irc
21:39:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well I mean overall on irc
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21:40:12 <ehird> yes, but not english natives presumably
21:40:12 <ehird> I've never seen anyone use it but you
21:41:53 <ehird> ais523: Espirit#13 makes me want to make a level where if you move right once, it solves itself
21:41:53 <ehird> but is really hard otherwise
21:42:37 <ais523> better still, the self-solution should be slower than the hard one
21:42:41 <ehird> just a real pain to maneuver
21:43:03 <ehird> ais523: agreed, although that destroys the beauty of "par 2:47, record 0:07"
21:43:23 <ais523> ah, I see what you mean
21:43:44 <ehird> I mean, it'd be full of it trying to move against you, so naturally if you went right and started to move you'd resist
21:43:47 <ais523> you could do that simply with a massive dexterity-trick at the start, but disguising that would be more tricky
21:43:50 <ehird> so it would be quite hard to find
21:44:38 <AnMaster> <ehird> yes, but not english natives presumably <-- one of them is admittedly an Australian...
21:44:56 <ehird> that was actually a good one :/
21:45:20 <ehird> <ais523> you could do that simply with a massive dexterity-trick at the start, but disguising that would be more tricky
21:45:22 <ehird> what do you mean by this, btw?
21:45:29 <ais523> something that's very hard to do
21:45:30 <AnMaster> ehird, it is always fun to poke fun at au English
21:45:41 <ais523> by moving the mouse a certain way
21:45:42 <ehird> how does it disguise what
21:45:52 <ais523> the idea would be you could skip a portion of the level by doing something crazy at the start
21:45:57 <ais523> but that that would be hard to disguise
21:46:00 <ais523> as anything other than what it was
21:46:47 * ehird wonders if anyone has noticed a cheat in 0.92-1#46
21:47:31 <ais523> possibly not, that's a weird level to want to look for shortcuts in
21:47:44 <ehird> get all oxyds but one, kill yourself, hit the last one
21:47:58 <ais523> oh, that's not considered cheating, it's a standard technique
21:48:07 <ehird> but it means you can get 0:01
21:48:34 <ehird> or does the bottom left timer not reflect total time?
21:49:01 <ais523> killing yourself has a delay of a bit over a second
21:49:07 <ais523> in both realtime and timer time (which is meant to be the same)
21:49:17 <ais523> there is an exploit on timer time, it involves holding down ESC
21:49:41 <ais523> but it isn't useful in most levels
21:49:41 <ehird> the world record is 0:06
21:49:46 <ehird> so you can get like 0:03
21:49:46 <ais523> only those that look at the realtime clock for some reason
21:50:00 <ais523> anyway, why would you think you can get all oxyd-pairs but one?
21:50:12 <ais523> what you're suggesting sounds like a legit way to get a world record
21:50:17 <ais523> so you could set a new record, if it worked
21:50:31 <ehird> hit every oxyd but one, kill yourself, dash to it
21:50:40 <ehird> you can take as long as you want before killing yourself
21:50:49 <ais523> killing yourself doesn't reset the timer
21:51:09 <ehird> oh, possibly i lost all my lives the first time
21:51:13 <ais523> resetting the level resets the timer
21:51:16 <ais523> which happens when you run out of lives
21:51:48 <ais523> dying without a level reset penalises you about 1 second by freezing your movements (leaving the level running), then you respawn with the timer at its current value
21:52:02 <ais523> and some levels are set to reset whenever you die, in which case extralives are only useful for blocking lasers
21:52:17 <ais523> finding out whether that setting's on or off is one of the first things I do on a level
21:52:27 <ais523> that I don't know about
21:53:10 <ehird> does 0.92-1#106 have to be so loud?
21:54:06 <AnMaster> ais523, btw in http://imgur.com/6jeoK.png (just noticed that tab open) what the hell is up with the tiles
21:54:33 <ais523> AnMaster: beats me, what the hell is up with anything else there?
21:54:48 <ais523> also, the showpet heart shows as a heart, so it is trying to do tiles a bit
21:54:55 <ais523> even though it's mostly broken ASCII by the look of it
21:55:39 <AnMaster> ais523, mine here looks like fairly sane small tiles
21:55:52 <ehird> par of 0.92-1#126 is 15s, ridiculous
21:56:02 <ehird> AnMaster: noticed the top of the window?
21:56:06 <ehird> the whole point is that it's broken for ais523
21:56:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: noticed the top of the window? <-- you mean those overlapping "titles"?
21:56:46 <AnMaster> that happens here too at default font size
22:01:00 <AnMaster> huh why "IANALAIDPOOTV". Supposedly it means "I Am Not A Lawyer And I Don't Play One On TV" but I don't get the joke about the TV bit...
22:01:36 <ehird> I, Ana, Laid Poo TV.
22:02:21 <fizzie> I, anal aid, poot the fifth.
22:03:02 <AnMaster> so should I interpret this as no one having a clue what the joke is?
22:03:17 <ehird> Interpret it how you want, but I'll say one thing and that's whoosh.
22:03:49 <ais523> there's not much point in whooshing people who know a joke exists but don't get it, and say so
22:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what has laywers in some film got to do with anything
22:04:01 <ais523> that's like saying "You say you know a joke exists but you don't get it? well, you don't get it!"
22:04:02 <ehird> You amuse me AnMaster.
22:04:09 <ehird> ais523: he could have used google
22:04:11 <ehird> I know you're alien to this concept.
22:04:12 <ais523> you amuse me ehird, in that particular line
22:04:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I *googled* for this "IANALAIDPOOTV" which is why I found out what it meant
22:04:34 <AnMaster> but I was unable go get further
22:04:59 <lament> it's a reference to a joke.
22:05:02 <AnMaster> ais523, do you get the joke? If so could you please help.
22:05:27 <lament> AnMaster: google for "but I play one on TV"
22:05:39 <ehird> That's a shocking idea
22:05:39 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say "woosh" at ais523
22:05:45 <ehird> How can you ever have thought of that, lament.
22:05:47 <ais523> AnMaster: you misspelt "whoosh"
22:06:03 <AnMaster> lament, ok. didn't know that was the original joke
22:06:24 <AnMaster> because I did try "And I Don't Play One On TV" too
22:07:10 <lament> in your defense, neither the original joke nor the "AIDPOOTV" come-back are funny
22:07:20 <ehird> funniness is totally unrelated to recognition
22:07:24 <lament> so it's hard to understand what they're about
22:08:43 -!- gergely has joined.
22:08:55 <AnMaster> "<ehird> funniness is totally unrelated to recognition" <-- and how would one recognise those if one had no clue what to recognise?
22:08:55 -!- gergely has left (?).
22:09:14 <ehird> you clearly had some clue because you asked
22:10:06 <AnMaster> ehird, deduction by logic: It didn't make sense if it wasn't a reference or joke.
22:10:19 <AnMaster> but I had no clue *what* reference or *what* joke
22:11:38 <AnMaster> it's makes about as much sense as me attacking you for not being able to recognise a 5 second piece of music as (for example): Hadyn, early period
22:12:07 <ehird> AnMaster is offended!
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23:08:27 <AnMaster> that is a clean install "rebooting from install"
23:13:10 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:17:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
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23:29:20 <AnMaster> hm it hit 7.1 GB before desktop showed up
23:36:53 <Sgeo> "The article failed to mention his enthusiastic support of nuclear power and how he is going to be meeting with world leaders to get more nuclear plants purchased and built. Essentially, he'll be hawking radiation."
23:37:47 <Sgeo> Stephen Hawking. (Also, that quote was a joke)
23:37:50 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=4668974
23:38:55 <oerjan> well to be hawking radiation you first have to jump into a black hole
23:39:48 <lament> i thought, to be hawking radiation you first have to spontaneously appear from vacuum just outside of a black hole?
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23:45:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> 7.0G windows7.vdi
23:45:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> that is a clean install "rebooting from install"
23:45:22 <ehird> <AnMaster> funny? yes
23:54:42 <oerjan> lament: i am using be in the "become" sense here
23:56:12 <oerjan> and also, jumping into vs. turning into radiation just outside are just different ways of looking at the same phenomenon, iiuc
23:57:08 <oerjan> since for example time dilation at the horizon w.r.t. the outside universe is infinite
23:59:12 <ehird> so actually jumping into a black hole you'd just die due to being ripped apart, correct?
23:59:17 <ehird> i don't really know anything about black holes
23:59:48 <ehird> so, say you had a pod you could put around you, God gave it to you
23:59:55 <ehird> it stops you being ripped apart, the laws of physics be damned
23:59:58 <ehird> I jump into a black hole