00:00:06 <pikhq> I like-a the threaded code-a.
00:00:25 <pikhq> Even though it's only slightly more efficient than a good interpreter. :P
00:03:58 <andares> Ugh, I can't figure out integer division.
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05:12:40 <Rugxulo> I still don't understand AnMaster's goal, just to have a "freehosting" (?) GCC/G++ for his whatever-oddball-processor?
05:13:05 <Rugxulo> there's bound to be other compilers besides GCC for it
05:13:23 <Rugxulo> heck, AnMaster knows some assembly, so screw the compilers, just use that, might be easier anyways :-P
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05:20:00 <Rugxulo> hey, I thought the Lego stuff supported Forth?
05:22:40 <Rugxulo> http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25272
05:26:01 <Rugxulo> http://packages.debian.org/en/sid/binutils-h8300-hms
05:27:58 <Rugxulo> http://packages.debian.org/lenny/gcc-h8300-hms
05:28:48 <Rugxulo> and just to hammer the obvious home (though not sure if it makes it easier or not), MinGW, Cygwin, and DJGPP all use (some variant of) COFF
05:29:07 <Rugxulo> okay, laptop battery low, chat with ya later ;-)
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05:55:09 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> hey, I thought the Lego stuff supported Forth? <-- pbForth?
05:55:36 <AnMaster> also I don't wish to learn H8/300 asm
05:59:14 <AnMaster> anyway I needed newlib to be able to compile g++
05:59:20 <AnMaster> not that newlib is actually used then
05:59:43 <AnMaster> just needed for it to be able to compile
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08:57:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, it looks like someone has finally built a self-replicator in Life.
09:03:18 <Phantom_Hoover> And I now have profound respect for the inventor of the hashlife algorithm.
09:07:10 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399
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09:14:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence it it disassembles its parent after being activated.
09:15:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a lot prettier than the von Neumann replicators, though HighLife still wins that contest.
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11:36:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Has anyone else noticed that the shape of orbits is flowery when gravity is proportional to x^-1?
11:37:32 <oerjan> that's how it would probably work in 2d, after all
11:38:44 <oerjan> (that's not a personal "yes", btw :D)
11:40:11 <oerjan> *i haven't noticed personally, no
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14:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is a conspiracy.
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16:06:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wrt. http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399 : also a space ships that alters direction every now and then
16:06:41 <AnMaster> without any reflectors or such
16:07:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, (regular) polygon or something?
16:07:43 <AnMaster> you can't get a circle with just integers
16:09:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, challenge: write a GOL interpreter in GOL. And not the trivial "eval"-style one
16:10:07 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them simulating an infinite number of separate universes.
16:16:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hah and I doubt it would be the most efficient in life
16:17:02 <AnMaster> why? it is an "architecture" that is completely different from "normal" computers
16:17:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, making a computer that directly simulated Life on the hardware level probably wouldn't be as fast as using Golly.
16:18:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh just an... hm what is the English word
16:18:40 <Phantom_Hoover> We kept the 'e' because we are decadent and capitalist.
16:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I just read someone saying that we travel at lightspeed down the time timension.
16:22:51 <AnMaster> that would imply we can't travel to the future (we can't go faster) but we could slow down and even reverse... But then we could never catch up with the "present" again or something
16:22:59 <AnMaster> but yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense
16:24:31 <Phantom_Hoover> So travelling along the time dimension means your speed is dt/dt, which makes no sense.
16:25:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, we should get space dilation :P
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18:27:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Is Sierpinski-pattern growth in any way mathematically interesting?
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18:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> The replicator in HighLife and the straight line in cylindrical Life both have a growth pattern tied into the Sierpinski gasket.
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18:47:25 * pikhq can has obnoxiously swift Brainfuck compilation with hardly any optimisations being done
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19:17:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover!!!!!!!!1111eleven
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19:18:10 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is a conspiracy.
19:18:33 <oerjan> you know too much. expect your numbers to start not adding up in the future.
19:18:33 <fizzie> I was waiting for that previous exchange to escalate to interrobangs.
19:18:53 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm still not unicode-clean you know
19:19:08 <fizzie> You should take an unicode-shower.
19:19:41 <fizzie> It involves taking a bucketful of BMP characters and dumping them all over you.
19:20:03 <oerjan> <AnMaster> you can't get a circle with just integers
19:20:16 <oerjan> i think you are not aware of pythagorean numbers, then
19:20:34 <fizzie> (You'll keep finding CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPHs in your hair for weeks.)
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19:21:07 <AnMaster> oerjan, well it won't be a perfect *continuous* circle, right?
19:21:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: well a continuous circle is uncountable, so...
19:22:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is a "CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH"?
19:22:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, now, does that ever exist outside pure math? as in real world. Drawn circles and so on
19:23:45 <oerjan> we have no way of measuring finely enough to find out
19:23:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, on an atom-scale it seems doubtful
19:24:16 <Sgeo> "Chrome Web Store provides developers a window to over 70 million people, according to Google. It’s available in Chrome and Chrome OS and will be available in the Chrome Dev Center soon."
19:24:28 <Sgeo> And putting things on the web: Available to everyone!
19:24:45 <Sgeo> Seriously, this is.. disconcerting
19:25:06 <AnMaster> as long as they don't do vendor lockin
19:26:02 <pikhq> 's a Unicode supplement block.
19:26:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah and what does that mean
19:27:11 <Deewiant> CJK means Chinese/Japanese/Korean
19:27:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so the compat stuff?
19:28:32 <Deewiant> I'd guess it's compatibility for legacy character sets but I don't know
19:28:43 <fizzie> My guess is it's so that you can have a lossless translation from some legacy character sets to Unicode and back again.
19:28:56 <fizzie> At least that's the justification for some other compatibility bits.
19:29:04 <Deewiant> Yep, that's what I was guessing also
19:29:22 <AnMaster> the lossless bit is the key to having it make sense
19:29:29 <fizzie> "Compatibility Character. A character that would not have been encoded except for compatibility and round-trip convertibility with other standards."
19:29:51 <Deewiant> Well yes, I thought losslessness was obvious :-P
19:30:04 <AnMaster> meh I didn't consider it might be an issue
19:30:14 <AnMaster> after all it isn't for western languages really
19:30:52 <AnMaster> so I'm still somewhat mystified why not just encoding it as the "non-compat" entry for the same char...
19:33:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: perhaps the original character set had different forms for variations of the same character
19:33:34 <ws_> I have a new computing project
19:33:44 <ws_> but have yet to figure out some parts here and there
19:34:03 <ws_> basically, it's decomposing a computing problem into a set of, say, puzzle flash games or something like this
19:34:06 <pikhq> Not beinf for a "western language" does not remove the need for round-trip convertibility.
19:34:23 <ws_> so that users, not being aware of it, would be actually calculating something
19:34:31 <ws_> call it human-puting... MWAHAHAHAHA
19:34:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: i recall a discussion with someone who said that even distinguishing upper and lower case is really a compatibility feature for Unicode (it doesn't make sense in many charsets _other_ than western)
19:34:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, but a "western language" does not seem to have many issues with it
19:35:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: You say this because you use a Latin script.
19:35:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, so tell me why it is an issue elsewhere
19:35:41 <pikhq> Which really does not have encoding issues at *all*.
19:35:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, I fail to see why unicode would do that for latin charset
19:36:11 <pikhq> Makes about as much sense as Han unification.
19:36:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does? And what is that Han unification?
19:36:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: um do what? distinguishing or not distinguishing?
19:36:43 <pikhq> Merging upper and lower case.
19:36:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, the former. It shouldn't do the former.
19:37:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Han unification is the process whereby the glyphs for pretty much all CJK characters were merged into codepoints based on abstract meaning, regardless of (sometimes quite major) glyph variations.
19:37:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure ASCII converts fine for most stuff. But ISO-whatever-forgot-the-number for example does as well
19:37:53 <fizzie> It's mostly that they want a one-to-one mapping for existing systems, so they'll have to include characters that would "naturally" be represented some other way in Unicode. There's at least some "presentation variations" for Arabic that "should" be expressed using some rendering-state-changing characters, but legacy encodings have unique characters for those.
19:37:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is no EBCDIC compat block is there?
19:38:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, I see.. so now it is up to the font?
19:38:34 <pikhq> Which makes it a royal bitch to have plain text with both Chinese and Japanese in it.
19:38:58 <pikhq> They stopped *just* short of merging Simplified and Traditional Chinese.
19:39:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, they merged Chinese and Japanese!?
19:39:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, why not make case for Latin scripts up to the font as well? *shudder*
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19:39:43 <fizzie> Chinese, Japanese and Korean.
19:39:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, each language has its own glyph variants of Han characters.
19:39:59 <pikhq> fizzie: And Vietnamese's old orthography!
19:40:26 <AnMaster> so the things in question is about local differences within a language?
19:40:29 <oerjan> pikhq: if they merged simplified and traditional chinese, the PRC and/or ROC would probably have declared war ;D
19:40:43 <oerjan> (on the Unicode consortium)
19:41:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, they merged nearly all glyph variants.
19:41:12 <Sgeo> I guess the Chrome Web Store just makes finding cool web stuff easier
19:41:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, even between the languages? You said they were separate above.
19:41:52 <pikhq> No I didn't. I said each language posesses its own unique glyph variants for characters.
19:42:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, so now there are Simplified and Traditional + the rest? or what?
19:43:06 <pikhq> Simplified characters have their own codepoints. Traditional Chinese as written in China, as written in Korea, as written in Japan, and as formerly written in Vietnam are using the same codepoints.
19:43:10 <Deewiant> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Examples_of_language_dependent_characters
19:43:27 <pikhq> *Except* when a previous encoding had differentiated them.
19:43:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, "<pikhq> *Except* when a previous encoding had differentiated them." <-- ?
19:43:56 <Deewiant> I.e. when the character is in a compatibility block.
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19:45:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, they do look _very_ similar all over
19:46:39 <AnMaster> there are like two variants of shape and a few variants that looks like font style (bolder, less bold, ...)
19:46:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's... Not quite right.
19:47:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, I doubt I have a lot of fonts for those installed
19:47:15 <AnMaster> it isn't like I could read it anyway
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19:47:43 <Deewiant> I think I've got the same font for the three Chinese variants
19:48:02 <fizzie> I haven't bothered to do any font-setting-up either, but due to some accident or other the Korean characters look a lot more calligraphistical and (arguably) nicer.
19:48:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for me, "Chinese Traditional" definitely have larger and bolder letters
19:48:46 <AnMaster> Chinese (Generic) == Chinese Simplified
19:49:10 <AnMaster> Japanese looks like the simplified Chinese
19:49:17 <Deewiant> http://tar.us.to:4321/Han%20unification%20-%20Wikipedia,%20the%20free%20encyclopedia_1274294905927.png
19:49:23 <AnMaster> and Korean like the "Chinese Traditional"
19:49:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: Look at the table of non-unified characters.
19:50:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, varies between different lines there
19:50:12 <AnMaster> but in general Japanese looks like Simplified Chinese
19:50:30 <pikhq> Yes, the first and second lines are two different glyph variants.
19:50:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, for a few lines all entries on the line do look the same
19:50:55 <fizzie> To add another data point: http://zem.fi/~fis/wikihan.png
19:51:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, even more specialised fonts
19:51:31 <fizzie> Unfortunately I chose another part of the table than Deewiant.
19:51:34 <pikhq> 両, 两, and 兩 would be unified under normal Han unification rules.
19:51:54 <pikhq> As would 亀, 龜, and 龟.
19:52:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, they are the same glyph, and only one font has it encoded apparently.
19:52:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, except they seem to have different baseline
19:55:33 <fizzie> That U+9F9C character in this font -- http://zem.fi/~fis/wikihan2.png -- looks like an electrical-drawing symbol for something very funky.
19:56:53 <fizzie> My IRC font is so tiny that everything on-channel is just a messy blob.
19:57:23 <pikhq> They'd be Han unified if it weren't for compatibility issues.
19:58:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, so since these represent abstract concepts you said...
19:58:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, does that mean with just a change of font, a Japanese could read a Chinese text
19:58:57 <AnMaster> provided it only used "shared" glyphs
19:59:09 <AnMaster> (I don't know if some are unique to one of the languages)
19:59:38 <pikhq> Radically different grammar and semantics.
19:59:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, then han unification made even less sense
20:00:03 <pikhq> Japanese merely *borrowed* Chinese characters for the purpose of writing their language.
20:00:08 <fizzie> But could it be like reading the world's most horrible machine translation of the other language? :p
20:00:21 <pikhq> fizzie: Most horrible? Perhaps.
20:00:50 <fizzie> The "shared semantics" thing is the sort-of justification for the unification: "This isn’t to say that ideographs are truly ideographic, in that they represent abstract ideas; but they generally have one root meaning from which the others derive, and generally retain the bulk of their semantic content across linguistic boundaries."
20:01:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: I should also note: Chinese is not one language, but several languages, which happen to have a common standard orthography.
20:01:23 <fizzie> I have been under the impression that it was mostly to get everything to fit in 16 bits, though I can't find that said anywhere.
20:01:37 <pikhq> (presently, said standard is moderately formal written Mandarin. Before the 50s or so, it was Classical Chinese.)
20:02:47 <Deewiant> If it was only for the 16-bittiness, they should undo it now that they have 20 bits anyway.
20:03:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, so widely different dialects then?
20:03:11 <fizzie> You can get Unicode's "semantic content" hints for any of the unified characters from http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=9f9c -- that's for the turtle -- after scrolling past mappings to other encodings.
20:03:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, or is the grammar completely different?
20:03:44 <AnMaster> (there are some grammatical variations in Swedish dialects iirc)
20:03:58 <AnMaster> (mostly gone in "current" times)
20:04:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: Grammar for the vernacular tends to have notable shifts. But they *are* related languages, so nothing quite as extreme as between Japanese and Chinese.
20:04:23 <pikhq> They have, however, had *very* radical phoneme shifts.
20:05:48 <pikhq> I'd say the best analogy is that the Sinitic languages are like the Romance languages, except with somehow writing in Latin being considered the way to write in the Romance languages.
20:06:13 <pikhq> (and... Reading it out loud using the local cognate words, not Latin)
20:06:30 <AnMaster> I have no clue what those are :P
20:06:51 <pikhq> Sinitic languages = the languages deriving from Old Chinese. Romance languages = the languages deriving from Latin.
20:07:09 <oerjan> romance = portuguese, spanish, french, italian, romanian, and some other small ones
20:07:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: only romanian
20:07:40 <pikhq> And there's also English, which is arguably half-Romance. :P
20:07:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, I heard English placed as a germanic language?
20:08:32 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, most(?) non-isolated languages imported words though
20:08:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: more english words are romance than germanic iirc, but the _most common_ words are germanic
20:08:43 <AnMaster> Swedish is definitely from the germanic family
20:09:07 <pikhq> oerjan: Many of those common words are not, however, native to English.
20:09:10 <AnMaster> but yet we have imported quite a few French words. garage and garderob iirc come from French
20:09:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: 25% of our vocab is from French.
20:09:57 <pikhq> 25% of our vocab is from Latin.
20:10:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, well it isn't as much for Swedish, but there are quite a few things...
20:10:09 <oerjan> pikhq: borrowings from other germanic languages, you mean? (like egg, skirt and such)
20:10:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I remember reading that in Welsh, the words for "church", "bridge" and "window" are all from Latin.
20:10:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Old Norse.
20:10:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Thus implying that the ancient Britons did not have these things.
20:10:54 <oerjan> incidentally "sky" means "cloud" not sky in norwegian
20:11:38 <oerjan> sky would be "himmel", which also means heaven dependent on context
20:12:00 <AnMaster> and I would say himeln for the sky in Swedish probably. More natural. Not that "skyn" is archaic
20:12:15 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: "window" ~ "wind-eye"
20:12:17 <pikhq> We also developed quite a few grammar simplifications from Old Norse.
20:12:47 <oerjan> in new norwegian that's still transparent, "vindauge" = "vind" + "auge"
20:12:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, also a simple rule for a/an. I love that in English
20:12:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant: Yeah, but in Welsh it's something like "ffenys", which obviously derives from the Latin "fenestra".
20:13:00 <AnMaster> a LOT easier to learn than French
20:13:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in modern Swedish, window is "fönster"
20:14:16 <Deewiant> It evidently came to Finnish from Russian
20:14:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, yet you haven't updated English yet. If even we dropped "window"/"vindöga" so should you :P
20:14:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, doesn't look similar to fönster at all, so I guess it is not connected to that at all
20:15:01 <oerjan> defenestration is a cool word
20:15:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure but I meant where the Russians took it from
20:15:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: We just pile on other influences is all.
20:15:41 <Deewiant> Right, that'd be Proto-Slavic. :-P
20:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Defenestration is one of those words for which I'm dying to find a use.
20:15:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah. Is that like "no one knows for sure"?
20:16:21 <Deewiant> Or "it's so old that we lack the info".
20:16:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what does it mean?
20:16:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: we could use it on you, and you'd be quite likely to be dying, yes
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20:17:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Though out of a window feels like it should be "exfenestration".
20:17:49 <Phantom_Hoover> According to Wiktionary (Swedish) "fönster" is from Latin too.
20:17:56 <oerjan> well given that it's _through_ the window, should be transfenestration
20:18:35 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well naturally given de-fenestr-ation
20:19:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently the proto-Germanic people didn't have windows.
20:19:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hey what's wrong with wind-eye
20:20:06 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but why would it be applied inconsistently if it was in the root of the Germanic languages?
20:20:31 <oerjan> because using latin words is pretentious?
20:20:47 <pikhq> Except in English, where it's done without realising it.
20:21:23 <oerjan> Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum auditur.
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20:22:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: erm "pretentious" is obviously latin-derived? admittedly it may not have existed originally
20:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> "ostendo" just means "I show", not what it means in English.
20:23:31 <oerjan> well so ostensibly should mean "showably", then...
20:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but it means something like "giving only the outwards appearance of" in English.
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20:24:57 <oerjan> however pretentious means pretending to be better than you are, so that's no so far off... i think
20:25:23 <Sgeo> It's ##gameoflife now?
20:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan: What I mean is that the Latin root probably has different connotations to the English word.
20:39:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, I found out one of my rcxes doesn't work.
20:39:32 <AnMaster> so I will have to do with a single one :(
20:40:09 <Phantom_Hoover> 1st commandment of troubleshooting: If thy Hardware breaks down, though must Hit it Sharply.
20:41:41 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't apply to purely surface mounted components I think
20:41:53 <AnMaster> I did check that I got voltage across the battery box
20:42:06 <AnMaster> but yeah I can't do much about the tiny surface mounted components
20:42:11 * Sgeo can't wait to play Gish at the speed it was meant to be played at
20:42:48 <Sgeo> Hm, the links to the games don't include the bundle ID
20:42:58 <Sgeo> So I could point someone to a game and not have it be traced to me >.>
20:43:12 <Deewiant> Sgeo: How old is your machine now? :-P
20:43:15 <Sgeo> Unless referer stuff is used, I guess
20:43:23 <Sgeo> Deewiant, this is, um, 2006 or earlier
20:43:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, though lego is probably rugged when it comes to that
20:43:30 <Sgeo> But far better than the 2000 machine I was on before
20:44:33 <Sgeo> It still ran.. slowly.. on my old machine
20:45:06 <Deewiant> Did you get it from a thrift shop in 2006? :-P
20:47:45 <Deewiant> I mean, any even half-new machine from 2006 /should/ be able to run Gish just fine
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20:58:36 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> According to Wiktionary (Swedish) "fönster" is from Latin too. <-- probably. But indirectly
20:58:59 <AnMaster> I read about it in SAOB (iirc) that it came from Mid-German or something like that
20:59:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but they then imported it from somewhere south
21:00:53 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fenestra#Latin
21:00:57 <Sgeo> Deewiant, it does
21:01:04 <Sgeo> But before, I was on my machine from 2000
21:01:44 <Deewiant> Ah; I was intending to query about the not-at-the-speed-Gish-was-meant-to-be-played machine
21:03:10 <Sgeo> Time to play with Aquaria
21:03:48 <oerjan> aquaria are not to be played with!
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21:04:16 <oerjan> fish are delicate creatures
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21:05:24 <Deewiant> Aquaria was a nice bonus; the only one of those games I hadn't already played
21:06:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: see how well they fare if you break the aquarium
21:07:23 <Phantom_Hoover> That's like saying rhinoceroses are delicate because they die if you drop them in the ocean.
21:07:51 <oerjan> it's true - from a certain point of view
21:08:30 <oerjan> now if it were hippopotami...
21:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "Hippopotamus" derives from Greek, not Latin, and I must go.
21:10:08 <oerjan> so? most greek words get squeezed through latin anyhow
21:10:14 <Deewiant> Today I learned: rhinocerotes are delicate but hippopotamuses aren't
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21:10:38 <oerjan> Deewiant: no one can say #esoteric isn't educational!
21:10:48 <oerjan> well they could, but they would be lying
21:10:50 <ais523> that's its main purpose, isn't it?
21:11:03 <oerjan> that and instilling insanity
21:13:47 <ais523> I'll catch up with it in a bit
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21:23:11 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> You control a blob of tar IIRC. <-- well then gzip it ;P
21:23:40 * oerjan runs after AnMaster and swats him -----###
21:23:42 <AnMaster> ais523, can you tell me how VHDL integer overflow/underflow is handled?
21:24:05 <ais523> STD_LOGIC_VECTORs overflow in the usual 2's complement way, though
21:24:26 <ais523> actual integers are mostly only useful for things like testbenches, as they don't synthesise
21:24:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so for befunge93 in VHDL a subtype like (79 downto 0) won't work? You would need border logic still?
21:24:56 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, if you specify bounds, it might work
21:25:01 <ais523> but that doesn't synthesise /at all/
21:25:15 <ais523> "integer from 79 downto 0" is not a type that exists in hardware
21:25:28 <ais523> at least not without more information as to how to represent it
21:25:35 <AnMaster> ais523, 100% sure? Because... at a lab at university we used an integer subtype with limited range and it did synthesize...
21:26:05 <ais523> I can imagine synthesisers that could manage that
21:26:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc (was a few weeks ago now) it wasn't that specific range
21:26:40 <ais523> it might have been forced to a power of 2
21:26:49 <AnMaster> well it was a power of two iirc
21:27:24 <ais523> integer (255 downto 0) strikes me as pretty similar to std_logic_vector (7 downto 0)
21:27:30 <ais523> and I don't see why you wouldn't use the second
21:27:44 <AnMaster> ais523, can you add two of the latter?
21:27:46 <ais523> you can cast it to an integer whenever you need its value, but now you also have a nice simple representation of it
21:28:01 <ais523> you need to import std_logic_vector arithmetic libraries, but they're standard
21:28:02 <AnMaster> ais523, and increment it? And so on
21:28:29 <ais523> and there'll be code inside the library to explain how to synthesise an adder, etc
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21:28:55 <AnMaster> ais523, which is the fastest "RAM" to implement on a FPGA?
21:29:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and what about space usage
21:29:15 <ais523> AnMaster: fastest "RAM" is if you go to the manufacturer and ask them for a RAM core
21:29:23 <ais523> those are so basic you can normally get them for free
21:29:25 <AnMaster> ais523, well, SRAM, d-latches, ...
21:29:48 <AnMaster> ais523, I was considering a stack of 2048 items to go with the 25x80 fungespace of this...
21:29:50 <ais523> AnMaster: onboard RAM goes at the rate of 1 per cycle, as normal
21:30:04 <AnMaster> ais523, yep but would that be feasible as on board
21:30:30 <ais523> AFAIR, they're both pretty much equally feasible, you just have different quantities of them
21:30:40 <ais523> onboard RAM takes less chip space as LUT RAM
21:30:46 <AnMaster> ais523, ... well I meant the quantity I mentioned above
21:30:51 <ais523> and they both take one clock cycle to read or right
21:31:06 <AnMaster> ais523, oh you mean they have special ram, not written like latches/flip-flops?
21:31:07 <ais523> 2 KB seems like a bit much for LUT RAM
21:31:10 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, they do
21:31:28 <ais523> and, of course, it isn't portable
21:31:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well I meant this to both run in ghdl and in theory be mostly synthisable
21:31:39 <ais523> you need to get the RAM description from the manufacturer
21:31:43 <AnMaster> ais523, so I'm confined to LUT RAM then
21:32:02 <ais523> well, you could write your own synthesis model for some plausible onboard RAM
21:32:17 <ais523> just in terms of arrays of integers or whatever
21:32:24 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm going to attempt "portable" VHDL + a ghdl wrapper (mapping the signals to console IO and such) which could be replaced for actual synthesis
21:32:55 <ais523> I say, make your "RAM" an entity
21:33:07 <ais523> with one architecture just being LUT RAM, and another being simulated RAM
21:33:15 <ais523> then you can add a third or fourth if you ever need on-chip RAM
21:33:33 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't simulated ram == lut ram?
21:33:47 <ais523> probably run faster in an actual simulation
21:33:57 <ais523> because you'd be manipulating numbers in memory, rather than arrays of bits
21:34:01 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the registers? How should those be handled. I need like x,y,direction,stringmode
21:34:32 <ais523> that'll synthesise into LUT RAM, or possibly something more optimal
21:34:39 <AnMaster> ais523, at what entity level? Or do you suggest I write the whole b93 interpreter in one entity?
21:35:05 <ais523> those are at the level of the main entity; you can pass them as 'arguments' to other entities you use
21:35:16 <ais523> VHDL doesn't have monads, so you have to do it by hand
21:35:49 <ais523> or whatever stupid name VHDL uses for it
21:36:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought you knew VHDL?
21:36:10 <AnMaster> also these would need to be in and out, in various places
21:36:22 <ais523> I do know VHDL, sort of
21:36:30 <AnMaster> I'm scared of ending up driving it in multiple places
21:36:35 <ais523> but normally I get Emacs to do all the details for me
21:37:03 <ais523> AnMaster: try, so long as you have VHDL-mode you'll be pleasantly surprised
21:37:34 <AnMaster> kate has a quite nice VHDL mode too
21:37:54 <AnMaster> it red-underline-bold highlights mismatched end lines
21:38:03 <AnMaster> like end entity somethingelse;
21:38:22 <AnMaster> or if ... case ... end case; end if
21:38:35 <AnMaster> or if ... case ... end if; end case
21:39:12 <ais523> VHDL needs more tool support than Java, really
21:39:13 <AnMaster> ais523, nice VHDL menu but what does all the options do
21:39:20 <ais523> you don't use the menu, normally
21:39:24 <ais523> it triggers as you type
21:39:32 <ais523> e.g., type "entity " and see what happens
21:39:33 <AnMaster> like... compose → wire components?
21:40:19 <AnMaster> hdl Electric Mode: Hide Value Toggle on (non-nil)
21:40:20 <AnMaster> Non-nil enables electrification (automatic template generation).
21:40:42 <AnMaster> ais523, that had be confused for a bit before I read the desc...
21:40:52 <AnMaster> (and realised it was *emacs* electric mode)
21:41:19 <ais523> it's what means I don't have to memorise lots of boilerplate
21:41:41 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean library IEEE; use ieee.std_logic_1164.all;?
21:42:02 <ais523> no, I mean, say the syntax for entity
21:42:07 <ais523> or even a simple for-generate loop
21:42:28 <AnMaster> entity foo is ... end entity foo;
21:42:44 <AnMaster> (I need to learn this, will have exam where I have to show I know it...)
21:44:55 <ais523> AnMaster: not just that, there's all the boilerplate you have to put /inside/ that
21:45:11 <ais523> VHDL has far too much syntax, it goes on for miles and most of it's redundant
21:45:45 <AnMaster> ais523, oh inside that? port(a,b,c: in std_logic; d,e,f: out std_logic); ?
21:45:54 <ais523> yes, that sort of thing
21:46:04 <AnMaster> ais523, which isn't really redundant
21:46:18 <AnMaster> ais523, is there anything except that an the generics stuff you put in the entity?
21:46:28 <ais523> not really, but compare it to C
21:46:45 <ais523> int entity_name(int a, int b, char c, char d);
21:46:57 <ais523> considering how similar things are...
21:47:29 <AnMaster> ais523, but VHDL has functions too iirc?
21:47:56 <AnMaster> stuff like rising_edge() or various conversion routines
21:48:00 <ais523> two sets of primitives, declarative and imperative
21:48:05 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but what are VHDL functions used for?
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21:48:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean <= outside process vs. inside process kind of thing?
21:48:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: on what?
21:48:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover # apt-get update
21:48:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover # apt-get upgrade
21:49:06 <ais523> AnMaster: sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude safe-upgrade
21:49:31 <ais523> I do nowadays; it keeps track of things a bit better than apt-get does
21:49:34 <ais523> due to being higher level
21:49:55 <AnMaster> I should start using dpkg or something
21:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I'm terrified of my system being filled to the brim with pointless packages that were needed when I wanted to experiment with X, which I have since uninstalled.
21:50:38 <AnMaster> ais523, and sudo is annoying. Redirection issues
21:51:16 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't mind my system filling with pointless packages
21:51:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there are logs in topic
21:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Manually uninstalling the 5000 dependencies for whatever is even worse than just leaving them.
21:52:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what has that got to do with apt-get?
21:52:32 <AnMaster> it does track what is installed as dep
21:52:37 <AnMaster> and what is explicitly installed
21:52:58 <fizzie> I do aptitude too; the conflict resolution is better. And I don't feel the pain.
21:53:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well at least it told me "this package is no longer required" in such a situation
21:53:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you do apt-cache at least?
21:54:16 <fizzie> There's "apt-get autoremove" which does the "remove packages that were automatically installed to satisfy dependencies for some package and that are no more needed" task; I don't know if it's automagically invoked sometimes too.
21:54:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, no it isn't. And shouldn't be
21:54:44 <AnMaster> it tells you however if there are such packages
21:54:54 <AnMaster> but happily it doesn't run it automatically
21:56:02 <ais523> fizzie: there's a command-line option to ask for it to be automagically invoked
21:56:52 <fizzie> And a configuration item you can set.
21:56:52 <AnMaster> you can set it in the config file I bet
21:57:03 <fizzie> APT::Get::AutomaticRemove.
21:57:26 <fizzie> They've been crafty and put that "matic" part in so that it wouldn't match the command/option.
21:57:51 * Phantom_Hoover ponders the reason that The Apprentice uses xylophone music.
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22:09:55 <oerjan> ramble ramble, lurk and shamble
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22:16:28 <oerjan> used to be functional analysis and dynamical systems
22:23:02 <oerjan> if you want to googlestalk my published articles, all of them are collaborations with either Richard Gjerde or Alf Rustad.
22:23:33 <oerjan> (also Johan Aarnes in one three-author paper)
22:25:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, so you don't have a job now?
22:25:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm how do you pay bills and such?
22:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> His father published a paper, but as far as I can tell he's in an isolated network.
22:26:04 <AnMaster> oh wait forgot Norway have social security...
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22:41:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Compared with the US, I'm sure it is awesome.
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22:42:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Would you become homeless if you did not have a job? If no, it's awesome compared to the US.
22:43:43 <AnMaster> but it would be harsh conditions
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22:44:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, the amount of money you get is just enough for rent and some food. Nothing more than that.
22:44:29 <AnMaster> no new clothes can be fit in or anything
22:44:38 <pikhq> *Radically* better than the US.
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22:49:00 <pikhq> When unemployment pay ceases in the US, you're... Just kinda fucked.
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23:54:50 * Sgeo was not expecting there to be boss fights in Aquaria
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23:55:49 <oerjan> if you mess with the boss you'll be sleeping with the fishes
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23:56:38 <sdorand2> one would think however that intelligent life appreciates other intelligent life
23:56:51 <sdorand2> though where I fit I truly have no idea
23:57:42 * oerjan gently taps sdorand2's pun detector
23:58:13 <sdorand2> no idea what i've even stumbled across....
23:58:21 <sdorand2> but they're all borderline insane
23:58:34 <sdorand2> depending on one's relativistic philosophies
23:59:12 <oerjan> this channel is about esoteric programming languages, not the other kind of esoterica
23:59:25 <sdorand2> perhaps its all the same thing