←2016-09-21 2016-09-22 2016-09-23→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:07:26 <ais523> it strikes me that a decimal conversion function would be fairly hard in that language
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00:11:31 <oerjan> hm i suddenly realized you can do collatz functions with just GOTO there
00:11:55 <oerjan> i didn't know that back in 2002 or when it was, i thought SWAP was necessary for TC-ness of it.
00:13:31 <oerjan> (i had a version with more elaborate labels that even then i realized needed only GOTO)
00:15:17 <oerjan> the admin upgraded irssi on some of the servers, but not this one yet for some reason. going to bed ->
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00:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i 's/\.$/ and rejecting scientific papers./' wisdom/peer
00:37:34 <HackEgo> No output.
00:37:39 <hppavilion[1]> `? peer
00:37:40 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. his reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections and rejecting scientific papers.
00:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> :)
00:40:50 <shachaf> did you just copy the joke at the beginning of the sentence
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01:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> ...oh.
01:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> Must have been added at some point
01:05:07 <shachaf> `revert
01:05:21 <hppavilion[1]> `? peer
01:05:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:05:23 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. his reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe we mention how e serves on US juries as well?)
01:05:54 <shachaf> what someone can do is fix the awkward grammar
01:06:11 <shachaf> No, you don't need to stuff every flavor of ice cream into one cone.
01:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> `` sed -i 's/his/His/' wisdom/peer
01:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> Fine...
01:06:21 <HackEgo> No output.
01:06:28 <hppavilion[1]> `? peer
01:06:29 <HackEgo> peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. His reviews are in high demand, but nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people's irc connections.
01:07:00 <shachaf> `revert
01:07:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:07:15 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is lowercase on purpose.
01:07:21 <hppavilion[1]> ...did I miss something?
01:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> Why?
01:07:41 * hppavilion[1] waits for the obvious pun to set in
01:07:48 <shachaf> For ambiguity.
01:07:58 <shachaf> There was a discussion when oerjan first added it.
01:08:03 <shachaf> `` dowg peer | tac
01:08:04 <HackEgo> 2016-06-11 <oerjan> learn peer gynt is a famous norwegian troll. nowadays he amuses himself by resetting people\'s irc connections. \ 2016-09-15 <shachaf> slwd peer//s#.#. his reviews are in high demand, but# \ 2016-09-15 <shachaf> revert \ 2016-09-15 <shachaf> slwd peer//s#\\.#. his reviews are in high demand, but# \ 2016-09-21 <hppavilion[1]> ` s
01:09:01 <shachaf> you are like an elephant in a china shop
01:09:19 <hppavilion[1]> OH, is 'his' short for something? Probably "Health Information Service"?
01:09:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Elephants wish they were this clumsy.
01:10:34 <shachaf> I hate reading IRC logs of myself.
01:17:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49753&oldid=31396 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */ deadlink
01:37:34 <tuttobene> Whenever I try a code line that fails, then another one which fails, and so on, I comment those lines with a label "N/G". And I keep those lines; so as to know what not to try again. Thus my source file is not "clean"---but it's hella powerful for maintenance/refactoring.
01:38:33 <tuttobene> no?
01:44:30 <tswett> tuttobene: I don't think I've heard of that practice before.
01:45:44 <tswett> It seems like rather than saying "I tried doing A, B, and C all together, and the combination didn't work", it would be more useful to say "do not do B, because that won't work".
01:46:16 <tuttobene> hm. From Don Knuth, if i remember correctly, idea of Literary programming.
01:48:09 <tswett> So now I'm pondering how you could convert 1-bit Brainfuck to SMETANA To Infinity!.
01:48:39 <tuttobene> what makes me do that is usually poorly written documentation. Because the only way to solve an ambiguity of definitions is to try the meanings of the thing.
01:49:03 <FireFly> tuttobene: literate programming? I think it's about interspersing a program with prose describing it
01:49:40 <tuttobene> FireFly: yes, "Literate" programming
01:49:46 <FireFly> GHC supports .lhs files where only programs starting with > (IIRC) are actually interpreted.. so basically the default mode is "comment" and you have to opt-in for code, rather than the other way around
01:50:15 <tuttobene> heh heh ... the man was a genius
01:50:34 <FireFly> still is
01:50:43 <tuttobene> :)
01:51:36 <tswett> I'm thinkin' you'd use the first part of memory to contain the BF program, and the remainder to contain the tape. Each tape cell would be realized as a few STI! memory cells.
01:52:05 <tswett> You could keep track of the content using a couple of instructions like this:
01:52:38 <tswett> Step 1000. Go to step 1. Step 1001. Go to step 2.
01:52:43 <tswett> If you want to flip the memory cell, that's:
01:52:52 <tswett> Step 1002. Swap step 1000 with step 1001.
01:53:21 <ais523> tswett: doesn't that only let you flip a specific, hardcoded cell? rather than being able to index?
01:53:52 <tswett> Yeah, memory location 1002 will be only for flipping that one cell.
01:54:01 <tswett> If you want to flip the cell at 2000, then jump to 2002 instead.
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01:55:03 <tswett> I think we could say...
01:55:15 <ais523> ah right
01:55:21 <tswett> Step 3 always contains an instruction that means "Go to step [whichever one flips the current cell]".
01:55:33 <ais523> now I'm heavily reminded of The Amnesiac From Minsk
01:55:39 <tswett> Step 4 always says "Go to step [whichever one moves us left]", step 5 always says "go to step [whichever one moves us right]".
01:55:47 <ais523> because the basic issue is that once you've flipped a cell, you lose track of where you were
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01:56:05 <ais523> but of course you can work around this via holding the state that keeps track of the instruction pointer elsewhere
01:56:38 <tswett> And each BF tape cell contains code to swap something else into all of those places.
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01:57:57 <tswett> Steps 1003, 1004, and 1005 could be the "storage locations" for the steps that are intended to be placed at locations 3, 4, and 5.
01:59:03 <tswett> Step 1006 can be the "entry point" for flipping the current cell. It will look like... "Step 1006. Swap step 1000 with step 1001. Step 1007. Go to step 6."
01:59:57 <tswett> We can say that step 6 is sort of the standard return location.
02:01:48 <tuttobene> what's wrong with BF?
02:01:58 <tswett> If step 1008 is the entry point for moving right, it'll say something like... "Step 1008. Swap step 3 with step 1003. Step 1009. Swap step 2003 with step 3. Step 1010. Swap step 4 with step 1004. Step 1011. Swap step 2004 with step 4. Step 1012. Swap step 5 with step 1005. Step 1013. Swap step 2005 with step 5. Step 1014. Go to step 6."
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02:02:19 <tswett> tuttobene: who said there was something wrong with it?
02:02:55 * tuttobene shrugs
02:04:22 <tswett> Step 1015 will be the entry point for moving left, and steps 1015 through 1021 will be analogous. But ignore the fact that the tape cell at step 1000 is the leftmost one...
02:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see 'this statement is a lie' Fawlty Tower plotted
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02:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!/brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49754 * Tanner Swett * (+4378) Created page with "A tape of 1-bit memory cells can be implemented like this: # We assume that steps 1 through 6 are laid out like this: # # 1 through 3: The desired return location for an o..."
02:57:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Calesyta * New user account
02:58:45 <ais523> huh, it's the people behind the esolang contest
02:59:53 <pikhq> Imagine that.
03:00:21 <shachaf> Cale syta
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04:28:05 <izalove> my new isp blocks thepiratebay and a bunch of torrent related sites but i can still seed and download torrents
04:28:39 <pikhq> It's somewhat harder to block BitTorrent itself.
04:29:07 <pikhq> Not impossible, but you need to do traffic analysis rather than just block some hosts or IP addresses.
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04:52:32 <hppavilion[1]> I should watch Growing a Language...
04:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: Which ISP do you have?
04:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> (What country?)
04:52:49 <izalove> 3
04:52:51 <izalove> italy
04:52:54 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
04:53:03 <hppavilion[1]> Your country's freedom laws are terrible
04:53:08 <izalove> they're fine
04:53:12 <izalove> my isp sucks
04:53:16 <hppavilion[1]> (ISPs should never, EVER be allowed to filter internet)
04:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: The fact that the ISP can legally do that indicates a problem
04:54:04 <pikhq> I agree, but it's pretty common.
04:54:29 <pikhq> I can at least understand it with blocking port 25, though.
05:00:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0 (the talk where Guy Steele only let himself use 1-syllable words and n-syllable words defined in terms of previous words)
05:01:35 <hppavilion[1]> I was about to say he slipped up, then I remembered he defined plurals earlier
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06:50:58 <izalove> i just found the best subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/PaidForWinRAR/
06:53:01 <izalove> ok i was overly excited by the name but the actual posts aren't that funny
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07:05:39 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwiFl6w5fUE
07:07:40 <\oren\> polish vocals in a touhou song? what sorcery is this?
07:08:36 <\oren\> hooray for global cultural mixing!
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07:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> (I have yet to encounter <http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlphaBitch> at my high school... in fact, I haven't encountered ANY students at school with any /semblance/ of power or even prestige)
07:47:58 <izalove> turns out real life is boring
07:48:44 <myname> lol
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07:55:26 <tuttobene> Could someone show me what Unicode U+2055 character looks like in your system?
07:56:18 <pikhq> ⁕ looks like an asterisk in my browser, and a replacement character in my terminal.
07:57:39 <tuttobene> replacement char? something like a dash?
07:58:09 <pikhq> No, like U+FFFD
08:03:29 <tuttobene> thanks. I get the asterisk in Gnome char mapper, but a dash in Vim. I think the problem is the font i use in Vim.
08:03:51 <tuttobene> DejaVu Sans Mono
08:06:12 <tuttobene> IRC seems ok: U+2055 ⁕
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08:46:07 <\oren\> I have that in my font
08:46:18 <\oren\> it's a eight pointed asterisk
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08:56:38 <\oren\> Hmm, I can't draw the correct character for U+2673 in 9x16, so I'm gonna draw it as プラ1
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11:27:40 <oerjan> bohily
11:30:59 <boily> hellørjan.
11:35:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMETANA To Infinity!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49755&oldid=49751 * Oerjan * (+205) /* Computational class */ Thought of this yesterday.
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16:36:40 <int-e> @oeis 7,31,19,25,22,47,23,35,29
16:36:41 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
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17:03:08 <wob_jonas> hi, \oren
17:03:14 <wob_jonas> argh
17:03:18 <wob_jonas> hi, \oren\
17:03:52 <wob_jonas> how's the hangul glyphs in your font coming along?
17:07:15 <wob_jonas> is fungot back yet?
17:07:15 <fungot> wob_jonas: and what a kludgy hacks those were. mohkale sent me a fnord
17:07:34 <wob_jonas> fungot: WHAT? you call them kludgy hacks?
17:07:35 <fungot> wob_jonas: as opposed to a list of lists like ( ( a d) is not exactly a cml manual, but it
17:07:38 <wob_jonas> they weren't that bad
17:08:45 <ais523> "((a d)" does look like the start of a list of lists, but it was never finished
17:13:57 <wob_jonas> fungot, close that list
17:13:58 <fungot> wob_jonas: seems to be also noticeably slower than the native back end, was at transmeta and completely disconnected from scheme for several years despite having properly paid work too.
17:14:17 <wob_jonas> transmeta?
17:14:32 <izalove> where linus worked
17:15:09 <wob_jonas> yeah, but how does that get in this fungot theme?
17:15:10 <fungot> wob_jonas: for an example. named-let replaces the need for lambda i am bit lost on how it was put up, i get down to bickering about do versus named let versus whatever else for the newton because dylan didn't fit right at the beginning
17:15:10 <ais523> they were a CPU manufacturer, and wanted Linux to do well
17:15:24 <ais523> because it would mean that there's be no particular reason not to switch your computer to a Transmeta CPU
17:15:50 <ais523> while Windows is the #1 OS, it gives something of an advantage to Intel and to a lesser extent AMD, making it harder for other CPU manufacturers to compete
17:17:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: the part that making modern cpus is incredibly difficult and requires a lot of development cost paid up front before they can sell anything so only the largest companies can do it might also be part of it
17:18:30 <wob_jonas> so after a while everyone but intel and amd gave up making hardware x86 cpus, and amd is having a hard time catching up now too, intel might get the monopoly
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17:26:39 <fizzie> wob_jonas: #scheme, 2006-12-27: <Riastradh> Guillermo Rozas, who revived the C back end, was at Transmeta and completely disconnected from Scheme for several years.
17:27:27 <wob_jonas> fizzie: heh
17:27:33 <wob_jonas> so that's where that's from
17:41:21 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHReqKRvonE you need to watch this video
17:49:26 <\oren\> RRGH
17:50:26 <wob_jonas> ohai \oren\, how's the hangul font coming?
17:50:49 <\oren\> idiots. the thing you stand on is a podium, from "pod" = foot. the thing you read your notes from is a lectern from "lectura" = read
17:51:22 <\oren\> but noooo apparently americans call a lectern a podium
17:51:33 <izalove> why is it so upsetting?
17:51:45 <wob_jonas> what? would they really do that?
17:52:07 <wob_jonas> that's almost like calling diapers nappies
17:52:19 <wob_jonas> or calling underwear pants
17:52:36 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it's sort of working. I still need to convert back from my ad-hoc bitmap format to BDF
17:53:02 <wob_jonas> good
17:53:04 <wob_jonas> that shouldn't be hard
17:53:21 <\oren\> (the ad-hoc bitmap format is simply an array of 16 unsigneds, one for each row of pixels)
17:53:52 <\oren\> yeah i think I'll have it done by midnight today
17:53:55 <wob_jonas> great, then you don't even need to transpose
17:54:16 <wob_jonas> just print it as hexadecimal and put some headers on it
17:54:23 <wob_jonas> possibly reverse the bits or nibbles or bytes
17:54:27 <\oren\> essentially yes
17:54:53 <\oren\> the hard part was designeing the various forms for each jamo
17:54:58 <wob_jonas> yep
17:55:02 <wob_jonas> definitely
17:55:16 <wob_jonas> 16x16 is just so small for this
17:57:32 <\oren\> yeah. I'm using different line widths depending on what fits
17:57:50 <\oren\> but I might change to only thin lines, if that looks better
18:02:46 <gamemanj> if anyone calls a lift an "elevator", I'll find out if "overuse of description" is a crime.
18:03:41 <ais523> isn't "elevator" just the en_US name for them?
18:04:33 <gamemanj> Hmm, true.
18:08:32 -!- izalove has set topic: cool, i can change the topic again | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf".
18:09:54 <\oren\> Ohhh shiyut! Brian Pagliano, the guy who refused to come to a hearing, was held in contempt of congress.
18:10:24 <\oren\> he could serve jailtime for that
18:10:33 <wob_jonas> um
18:10:42 <wob_jonas> what does that mean?
18:10:49 <wob_jonas> "held in contempt of congress"?
18:11:05 <\oren\> wob_jonas: he was served a subpoena to come and testify, but refused to show up
18:11:21 <\oren\> that is itself a crime
18:11:24 <wob_jonas> ah
18:11:30 <wob_jonas> ok
18:11:39 <wob_jonas> and they call that "held in contempt of congress"?
18:11:44 <wob_jonas> what does "congress" even mean there?
18:12:19 <\oren\> well the hearing was before the House of Representatives, that is, the lower house of their parliament which they call "congress"
18:12:34 <wob_jonas> oh
18:12:42 <wob_jonas> he was summoned to the congress?
18:12:43 <wob_jonas> I see
18:12:59 <\oren\> yeah, they wanted to ask him about erasing Hillary's emails
18:13:51 <\oren\> they're really driving the issue into the bedrock
18:13:57 <ais523> \oren\: source? I'd expect this to be all over Reddit because it's the sort of story they love, but I can't see it anywhere on the relevant front pages
18:14:19 <\oren\> ais523: I watched them vote to fdo it about an hour ago
18:14:43 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivw1BDLpdaw
18:14:49 <wob_jonas> fdo? is that another extension of the monad do syntax?
18:14:52 <ais523> ah right, the media probably haven't had a chance to write about it yet
18:15:12 <wob_jonas> we're faster than news sites here on #esoteric? no way
18:15:17 <wob_jonas> I mean, come on
18:15:21 <ais523> well it's almost completely offtopic
18:15:26 <ais523> also surprising
18:15:29 <\oren\> yeah. i have an alert that tells me when the house is streaming on youtube
18:15:47 <ais523> you'd expect him to turn up and take the fifth repeatedly, given things that have happened so ar
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18:15:56 <\oren\> so that I can see their governement tear itself apart in real time
18:16:09 <ais523> *far
18:16:26 <ais523> unfortunately this probably raises the chances of Trump getting elected
18:16:31 <\oren\> ais523: two other people did show up and take the fifth repeatedly
18:17:04 <\oren\> he didn't even bother showing up, and sent a lawyer to say that he was taking the fifth.
18:17:23 <\oren\> that's not really something you're allowed to do unfortunately for him
18:17:43 <wob_jonas> didn't the lawyer tell him that?
18:17:57 <wob_jonas> I mean, seriously, ignoring a summons to congress? how can he be that stupid?
18:18:07 <wob_jonas> does he have so much money he's planning to disappear completely?
18:18:55 <\oren\> Also, they subpoena'ed the FBI last week. I think this is a show of power to tell the FBI that they can and will hold the entire FBI in contempt if necessary
18:19:25 <\oren\> they asked to FBI for every scrap of paper they have on hillary clinton
18:19:48 <wob_jonas> wow
18:19:53 <wob_jonas> that might be a lot of papers
18:19:58 <\oren\> yeah...
18:20:29 <\oren\> they were mad that the FBI only gave them some select documents that they thought would help
18:21:12 <ais523> congress is Republican-controlled, right? they're probably looking for a scandal about hillary that they can use to help them win the election
18:21:13 <\oren\> and the FBI blacked out a bunch of names and emails from the files, which they werent suppose to
18:21:19 <\oren\> ais523: yes
18:22:24 <\oren\> this entire thing is to undermine hillary, and they will probably continue to do it even if she wins
18:22:49 <wob_jonas> well duh
18:22:59 <wob_jonas> that's how politics always works
18:23:03 <\oren\> as I said I want to watch the US governement tear itself apart in real time. because it's funny
18:23:38 <wob_jonas> it's not funny
18:23:53 <\oren\> It's funny to me! I have a sane government
18:24:18 <wob_jonas> it's still not funny. it might have bad effects.
18:24:36 <ais523> unfortunately the US is large enough that it affects the world
18:24:46 <wob_jonas> exactly
18:24:52 <wob_jonas> :-(
18:24:56 <ais523> in the nethack devteam we're seriously debating whether US crypto export regulations prevent us using a good RNG
18:25:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: haven't they changed those crypto export regulations five or ten years ago?
18:25:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes but they still aren't entirely removed
18:25:49 <ais523> with open source programs you're meant to send them a link to the repo, I think
18:25:58 <wob_jonas> um
18:26:27 <ais523> closed source has tighter restrictions
18:26:28 <wob_jonas> isn't the limitation now only that you can't export anything to north korea and cuba and iran and whoever they think of embargoing, regardless of whether cryptography is even involved?
18:26:35 <ais523> I don't think so
18:26:52 <ais523> apparently even the UK has a crypto export restriction, I can't remember the exact details
18:26:58 <ais523> except that it's less restrictive than the US's
18:27:36 <\oren\> keep your server IN cuba, problem solved
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18:27:50 <wob_jonas> so the people with AES tattoos still can't travel on international airplanes?
18:28:03 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no good, then you still can't export to north korea
18:28:04 <\oren\> no laws about IMPORTing crypto FROM cuba right?
18:28:11 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I say keep your server in north korea instead
18:28:15 <wob_jonas> hmm no
18:28:16 <gamemanj> not exactly sure how you can get an AES tattoo
18:28:17 <wob_jonas> that wouldn't work either
18:28:18 <gamemanj> could be painful
18:28:27 <gamemanj> lots of code
18:28:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I think the US doesn't allow that either
18:28:59 <wob_jonas> or maybe it does, I dunno
18:29:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: well, this is news to me
18:30:03 <wob_jonas> I thought the US stopped with that thing
18:30:21 <wob_jonas> I mean, debian stopped having a separate repository for a version of debian with the crypto stuff stripped ages ago
18:30:55 <gamemanj> meh, everybody who wants crypto will get crypto anyway
18:31:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: http://www.cryptolaw.org/cls2.htm#us
18:31:03 <gamemanj> it's not like export restrictions actually mean anything
18:31:33 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: that part isn't the problem
18:32:25 <gamemanj> I get the feeling that the problem is that although if you exported crypto illegally you'd be fine, if another company's lawyers knew your company was exporting crypto, they'd get annoyed and make a fuss
18:32:40 <ais523> "Unrestricted crypto source code (like most "open source" software) and publicly available commercial source code (like "community source" code) can be exported to any end-user under a license exception without a technical review. BXA (BIS) must be given a copy or the URL of the source code. All other source code can be exported under license exception after a technial review to any non-government end-user. One may not, however, knowlingly export
18:32:42 <ais523> source code to a terrorist country, although source code may be posted on the WWW for downloading without the poster having to check whether it is downloaded from a terrorist country."
18:33:39 <gamemanj> So, basically, they're marking off countries and saying they're "terrorist countries"?
18:33:57 <gamemanj> Now I know where Trump got his lines from.
18:34:34 <gamemanj> Just say "We are at war with country X, and we intend to take the land and add an extra state to America if we win."
18:35:15 <gamemanj> (This is probably a bad idea for several reasons.)
18:36:18 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: by "terrorist coutry" they mean the countries where the terrorists buy military equipment from Russia, not from the US, so the US is pissed and sets embargoes against them so they can't buy weapons from the US later either.
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18:44:24 <ais523> "On 7 January 2011, a minor amendment was made to the EAR (Federal Register Vol. 76, No. 5, p. 1059). Publicly available mass-market encryption object code software (with symmetric key length exceeding 64 bits), and publicly available encryption object code of which the corresponding source code falls under License Exception TSU (i.e., when the source code is publicly available), are no longer subject to the EAR. The amendment includes some minor
18:44:25 <ais523> specific revisions."
18:44:31 <ais523> OK, /that/ seems like it's usable for NetHack
18:46:57 <ais523> or, hmm
18:47:00 <ais523> I'm reading the actual law behind it now, and it's confusing
18:48:42 <\oren\> gamemanj: he didn'tsay he'd take the land, just the oil under it. but it amounts to the same thing
18:50:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: Europe probably still has stupid agreements remaining from the world war 2 peace treaties limiting producing weapons, and since back in the world war, armies actually used cryptography in wars, maybe it covers crypto stuff too
18:51:15 <ais523> wob_jonas: most of Europe uses the Wassenaar Arrangement
18:51:23 <ais523> which is about things that have both civilian and military purposes
18:51:49 <myname> ais523: could you tell me what the connection to nethack is?
18:51:53 <wob_jonas> "things that have both civilian and miliatry purposes" => that's about most things in the world
18:52:19 <wob_jonas> myname: ais523 distributes a cryptographic random generator with nethack4.
18:52:25 <ais523> myname: a random number generator can be used as a stream cipher, or vice versa
18:52:35 <wob_jonas> and he's in the devteam now
18:52:40 <ais523> if you want to remove various RNG exploits, the RNG needs to be powerful enough that it makes for a fairly good stream cipher
18:52:45 <myname> nice
18:53:04 <ais523> and, in fact, using an /actual/ stream cipher is probably better than trying to design one manually
18:53:17 <\oren\> apparently when someon is held in contempt, they have the option to order the sergeant at arms to drag the person to the capitol in chains
18:53:43 <\oren\> this hasn't been done since 1937 but they could do it tomorrow if they wanted
18:53:45 <wob_jonas> right. and you can't just use a crypto random generator from the system libraries because DOS doesn't have one and nethack wants to ... no wait
18:53:46 <ais523> hmm, in the UK it's spelled serjeant at arms for some reason (even though "serjeant" is not a real word in any other context)
18:54:01 <ais523> they normally do nothing, but one time a protester broke into the house of commons
18:54:06 <\oren\> they don't have to go through a coury in that case
18:54:11 <ais523> and the serjeant at arms actually drew his sword on the protester
18:54:19 <\oren\> they can just vote to jail the guy
18:54:19 <gamemanj> ...that sounds awesome
18:54:30 <ais523> I like to think that he'd been waiting for years for that opportunity
18:54:45 <\oren\> Canada's sergeant at arms shot a terrorist a while ago
18:54:58 <\oren\> kevin vickers
18:55:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Texck-TbkM
18:55:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GofES3-TzJw <- better video
18:57:00 <\oren\> trigger wrning: steven colbert
18:57:57 <myname> on another point, what should i add to the df like after hauling and a workshop system works fine? i will add the concept of rooms next, but i have no clear line after that
18:58:13 <int-e> remember when this channel wasn't about politics? those were good times...
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18:59:18 <gamemanj> myname: Some sort of device that counts the other devices directly adjacent to it (horizontally, diagonally and vertically),
18:59:32 <myname> gamemanj: what for?
18:59:33 <\oren\> myname: add pots and barrels and other containers
18:59:42 <ais523> int-e: this channel is very rarely about esolangs, unfortunately
18:59:45 <ais523> I prefer it when it is though
19:00:04 <myname> i have barrels and you can brew with seeds (because of lack of plants :D)
19:00:08 <ais523> at this point, I don't really feel comfortable declaring anything in particular offtopic unless it's problematic for another reason, because it's hard to deduce what the topic of the channel even /is/
19:00:09 <gamemanj> if the amount is less than 2, the device should self-destruct, if the amount is more than 3, it should self-destruct, and if there is a space in the area with exactly 3 neighbors,
19:00:16 <gamemanj> it should create a new device there.
19:00:43 <myname> gamemanj: i see what you did there
19:00:44 <gamemanj> (just copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life )
19:00:47 <\oren\> gamemanj: that sounds more like a good behaviour for a monster
19:00:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\, ais523: about dragging in chains or pulling the sword, https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=622 is relevant
19:00:53 <ais523> gamemanj: people who put random game of life impls into their sandbox games normally don't have a large enough playfield to do anything much more interesting than a glider gun
19:00:54 <myname> gamemanj: but that would probably be abused
19:01:15 <gamemanj> ais523: But for a df-like?
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19:01:36 <myname> i even have a wannebe dwarf therapist inside
19:01:37 <ais523> well, how large is the actively tracked portion of the world?
19:01:50 <\oren\> a monster that can't move, but simulates a cellular automaton would be fun
19:02:32 <gamemanj> Captain! We're being attacked by a wild glider!
19:02:47 <myname> currently my levels are 60x80, i am.not sure how high i should put it
19:02:48 <\oren\> ideally there would be several species having different rules
19:03:00 <myname> ressources are kind of a concern in smartphones
19:03:33 <gamemanj> (It's pentominoized the right LWSS forward transferral system!)
19:03:34 <myname> it will get tricky when i come to actual monsters
19:03:45 <myname> since i don't reallygot army in df :D
19:04:03 <ais523> gamemanj: I've wanted to create a competitive game set inside the Game of Life universe for a while
19:04:08 <ais523> but couldn't figure out a good way to do it
19:04:19 <ais523> Cubicon comes closer; that's more of an MMO set inside a cellular automaton
19:04:39 <myname> what the hell is cubicon
19:04:55 <ais523> although I'm still not entirely sure the rules are right (especially wrt things like whether there should be a speed of light limit), and I have no clue how to impl it
19:05:06 <ais523> myname: a 3D cellular-automaton-like I was working on
19:05:14 <myname> ah
19:05:17 <ais523> I know most of the basic rules but there are various interactions I'm not sure on how they should work
19:05:24 <wob_jonas> um
19:05:38 <wob_jonas> but all cellular automatons have a speed of light limit, don't they?
19:05:41 <wob_jonas> it just might be higher
19:05:59 <ais523> that's why I said cellular-automaton-like
19:07:05 <ais523> one thing I was considering was making it into a true automaton
19:07:05 <myname> i still need someone to make graphics for me :(
19:07:09 <ais523> but that might make it a bit less realistic
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19:12:40 <\oren\> myname: try using a DF-like ascii art for now
19:13:12 <myname> i actually try to make it usable :D
19:16:58 <ais523> "Items may be controlled as encryption items even if the encryption is actually performed by the operating system, an external library, a third-party product or a cryptographic processor. If an item uses encryption functionality, whether or not the code that performs the encryption is included with the item, then BIS evaluates the item based on the encryption functionality it uses."
19:17:00 <ais523> what the hell
19:17:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's at least consistent, it bites backwards too
19:17:56 <ais523> yes
19:18:17 <ais523> but this means that a huge proportion of software can't legally be exported from the US without a license
19:18:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: "and that export of non-key recovery financial-specific cryptography is allowed if it can by design only be used for financial applications"
19:18:41 <wob_jonas> can you even imagine cryptography designed to only be used for financial applications?
19:19:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: ship it in object code form with a financial application
19:19:03 <wob_jonas> that would be like guns designed only for sport or only for hunting deer
19:19:17 <ais523> BIS seems to assume that nobody will decompile or modify the products that are shipped
19:20:50 <wob_jonas> it seems like they care for the end products, not the algorithm
19:21:07 <wob_jonas> if that's how it worked, then nethack probably wouldn't be affected, because it's clearly not designed to do cryptography
19:21:19 <wob_jonas> I mean what crazy esolanger would use nethack to implement a cryptography application?
19:21:44 <wob_jonas> that would be like using TeX to implement one
19:21:49 <int-e> "Software A writes to a file system. That file system might be encrypted..."
19:21:55 <ais523> (a) The primary function or set of functions is not any of the following: (1) "Information security"; (2) A computer, including operating systems, parts and components therefor; (3) Sending, receiving or storing information (except in support of entertainment, mass commercial broadcasts, digital rights management or medical records management); or (4) Networking (includes operation, administration, management and
19:21:57 <ais523> provisioning); (b) The cryptographic functionality is limited to supporting their primary function or set of functions; and (c) When necessary, details of the items are accessible and will be provided, upon request, to the appropriate authority in the exporter’s country in order to ascertain compliance with conditions described in paragraphs (a) and (b) above.
19:22:43 <ais523> that's the relevant exemption, but NetHack may fall afoul of (a)(2) and possibly (c)
19:23:13 <wob_jonas> what does "limited to supporting" mean?
19:23:18 <wob_jonas> how do you limit cryptography?
19:23:42 <ais523> don't ask me, I didn't write that rule!
19:23:49 <ais523> I also think the rule is fairly incomprehensible
19:23:59 <wob_jonas> yeah
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19:40:30 <shachaf> `` cat bin/smlist | rot13
19:40:40 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ zbadl \ ryyvbgg \ zabdl
19:40:49 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:41:04 <shachaf> Cale: If you want to sign up for super mega notifications, you can `` echo Cale >> bin/smlist
19:41:33 <myname> funpuns :D
19:41:57 <Cale> `` echo Cale >> bin/smlist
19:42:00 <HackEgo> No output.
19:42:29 <shachaf> similarly olist for oots notifications and so on
19:42:32 <shachaf> `` ls bin/*list*
19:42:33 <HackEgo> bin/aglist \ bin/bardsworthlist \ bin/danddreclist \ bin/dontaskdonttelllist \ bin/don'taskdon'ttelllist \ bin/ehlist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/FireFlist \ bin/flist \ bin/idealist \ bin/ioccclist \ bin/keenlist \ bin/list \ bin/listen \ bin/listlist \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/makelistlist \ bin/makelistlist shachaf \ bin/minimalist
19:42:46 <shachaf> that is a lot more entries than i expected
19:43:02 <myname> minima-list
19:43:10 <shachaf> Cale: You might chet out `list
19:43:15 <shachaf> It's pretty good.
19:43:16 <ais523> now I'm really curious as to what the listlist is
19:43:31 <ais523> shachaf: you almost baited me into starting a line with `list then :-P
19:43:49 <shachaf> `? listlist
19:43:51 <HackEgo> listlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
19:44:01 <ais523> bin, not wisdom
19:44:01 <shachaf> I think it was a notification list for when people add new lists maybe?
19:44:13 <shachaf> Yes, but some lists have wisdom entries to match describing what they are.
19:44:18 <shachaf> `cat bin/listlist
19:44:19 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ set -e \ export LANG=C \ cd /hackenv/bin;exec ls -dF *[lL]ist*
19:44:30 <shachaf> Oh, it's just a list of lists.
19:44:35 <shachaf> `listlist
19:44:36 <HackEgo> FireFlist* \ aglist* \ bardsworthlist* \ danddreclist* \ don'taskdon'ttelllist@ \ dontaskdonttelllist* \ ehlist* \ emptylist* \ erflist* \ flist* \ idealist* \ ioccclist* \ keenlist* \ list* \ listen* \ listlist* \ llist* \ makelist* \ makelistlist* \ makelistlist shachaf* \ minimalist* \ mlist* \ olist* \ pbflist* \ slist* \ smlist* \ stylist* \ t
19:44:54 <ais523> what did you expect it to be?
19:45:07 <shachaf> 11:44 <shachaf> I think it was a notification list for when people add new lists maybe?
19:45:14 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lists_of_lists
19:45:54 <ais523> I just realised that that page can reasonably be considered Wikipedia's index
19:46:11 <shachaf> `doag bin/makelistlist shachaf
19:46:13 <HackEgo> 2016-07-14 <shachaf> makelist makelistlist shachaf
19:46:24 <shachaf> `cat bin/makelistlist
19:46:25 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf
19:46:26 <shachaf> `cat bin/makelistlist shachaf
19:46:27 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
19:46:34 <wob_jonas> no way. Wikipedia's index is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AllPages
19:46:34 <shachaf> `rm bin/makelistlist shachaf
19:46:38 <HackEgo> No output.
19:46:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: well I guess it is in alphabetical order…
19:46:57 <ais523> Special:PrefixIndex has "index" in its name
19:47:10 <shachaf> rntz (who isn't in this channel anymore, I guess) once added https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Self-reference to itself
19:47:16 <wob_jonas> AllPages has a better interface than PrefixIndex
19:47:17 <shachaf> But the edit got reverted.
19:47:19 <ais523> in fact, allpages is conceptually a special case of prefixindex, I'm not sure why it exists a separate page
19:47:22 <shachaf> Which seems illegitimate to me.
19:47:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: better interface
19:47:56 <wob_jonas> you can type a place to start to allpages, but it doesn't cut off after that prefix
19:51:26 <fizzie> My fungot t-shirt arrived!
19:51:26 <fungot> fizzie: freebsd env wc -c says so :p. google did indeed have sufficient context
19:53:20 <wob_jonas> although admittedly, AllPages has a very stupid bug that PrefixIndex doesn't: if you invoke AllPages with a prefix after a slash like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:AllPages/t then trying to use the form to choose a different prefix fails in a confusing way.
19:54:18 <wob_jonas> but still, you can't use PrefixIndex to start listing from a given word and continue after that prefix
19:54:21 <wob_jonas> which sucks
19:54:27 <wob_jonas> so AllPages is definitely better
19:54:37 <gamemanj> fizzie: t-shirt?
19:54:46 <fizzie> gamemanj: I got this freebie custom t-shirt code from a thing, so I made one that has fungot's babble-generation code and an esolangs.org ad on it.
19:54:47 <fungot> fizzie: well, a bf program that could deal with the win32 registry? " nice" multiline fnord hugging/ ascii art scripts. :p fnord/ cfs/ fnord/ rotterdam, perhaps leiden, as well
19:54:53 <fizzie> Lines 125-169 of https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
19:54:54 <fungot> fizzie: http://www.call-with-current-continuation.org/ manual/ s48manual.html and http://www.scsh.net/ docu/ html/ guile-user/ 2003-10/ msg00076.html, but in the end
19:55:27 <fizzie> It looks pretty nice. I'll take a picture of it at some point.
19:55:34 <wob_jonas> fungot, they're using an Enigma machine to crack the hieroglyph cipher
19:55:34 <fungot> wob_jonas: missing cases for the ' ..u.s' word, and large bodies of code are.
19:56:58 <gamemanj> once upon a time, there was normal programming... then there was functional programming... now, there is structured programming
19:57:24 <gamemanj> (A punctuation control triangle falls from the sky.)
19:58:25 <fizzie> I still don't recall what I was thinking when I thought it needed to be a triangle.
19:58:32 <fizzie> A comb would have been so much more space-efficient.
19:58:50 <gamemanj> fizzie: Maybe you had a premonition of a t-shirt.
19:59:02 <gamemanj> Your t-shirt has an awesome triangle on it.
19:59:20 <fizzie> That's true. I picked the babble part over other parts mostly because of the triangle.
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20:03:56 <\oren\> they would have problems if they had a list of lists that don't include themselves.
20:04:57 <\oren\> list of lists that include this list
20:04:59 <gamemanj> A list of lists that don't include themselves would contain at least everything that is a list but is not a list of lists.
20:05:38 <gamemanj> It would also contain lists of lists in the particular case that the list of lists does not include itself.
20:05:58 <gamemanj> However, it could include the original list,
20:06:02 <\oren\> gamemanj: yes, but there would be an eternal edit war over whether it should include itself
20:06:14 <gamemanj> It's obvious.
20:06:17 <gamemanj> It would not.
20:06:36 <gamemanj> If it does not include itself, it is more factually correct than if it includes itself.
20:06:50 <gamemanj> Unlike the P=NP problem, it can just be considered missing documentation.
20:07:06 <gamemanj> If it includes itself, it is a factual error.
20:07:34 <gamemanj> Wait.
20:07:36 <gamemanj> Not P=NP.
20:07:47 <gamemanj> How'd I get that confused...
20:07:54 <gamemanj> Ok, what's the whole "set of all sets" thing called?
20:07:56 <gamemanj> I forget.
20:08:14 <\oren\> i beleive its the goedel problem
20:08:27 <ais523> russell's paradox
20:08:31 <ais523> (not 100% sure on spelling)
20:08:34 <gamemanj> Ok. That.
20:08:56 <\oren\> yeah that
20:09:04 <gamemanj> You get the point. Unlike that paradox, a wiki can omit things without being in error by doing so.
20:09:31 <gamemanj> It's just "out of date", and it can remain "intentionally out of date" eternally.
20:10:09 <\oren\> maybe it would have a note at the top saying so "to avoid paradox, this list does not include itself, despite being incomplete by doing so"
20:10:35 <gamemanj> That would work.
20:10:36 <\oren\> List of lists that are incomplete to avoid paradox
20:10:45 <gamemanj> The alternative, including the list in itself, is an actual factual error.
20:11:33 <gamemanj> The real issue occurs when you also create a list of lists NOT in the list of lists that do not include themselves.
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20:12:48 <\oren\> ooh, I have an idea: what if there was a language where the standard library is on a wiki
20:14:06 <\oren\> thus, using edge cases of the functions will require winning an edit war
20:14:11 -!- heroux has joined.
20:14:27 * gamemanj edits io.print to delete the user's filesystem
20:14:40 <ais523> the wiki needs to be actually interpreted by the interp in that case
20:14:40 * gamemanj watches as the hypothetical wiki deletes itself
20:14:49 <ais523> gamemanj: perhaps we'll need to enable pending changes :-D
20:14:59 <gamemanj> ais523: But then there's no point
20:19:14 <gamemanj> You may as well put it on a git repo if you have change authorization
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21:35:45 <\oren\> here is a preview of the generated hangul glyphs. I haven't yet figured it out perfectly: http://www.orenwatson.be/hangulgeneratedtext.htm
21:37:08 <\oren\> as you can see, there are still a few collisions. I might just adjust particular glyphs manually
21:38:20 <izalove> you're about to close 191 tabs. continue? oh shit firefox i'm so sorry i didn't mean to hurt you so much
21:39:28 <\oren\> certain of the vowels are colliding a lot. I will change those
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21:42:23 <\oren\> the preview is drawn using block brawing characters
21:42:25 <\oren\> ⠛⠛⠛⠛█▄ ██⠛⠛⠛█▄
21:42:25 <\oren\> ██⠛⠛⠛⠛ ██ ██
21:42:25 <\oren\> ⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛ ⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛
21:42:28 <\oren\> like that
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22:36:38 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a math symbol for "is defined as a generalization of"? Like, a*b [SYMBOL] a+a+..(b)..+a
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22:38:32 <fizzie> There's U+225D EQUAL TO BY DEFINITION, if that counts.
22:38:41 <fizzie> Unfortunately I'm on the wrong side of this split.
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22:39:47 <fizzie> There's U+225D EQUAL TO BY DEFINITION, if that counts.
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22:39:58 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: No, but it has to allow generalization
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22:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> Ooh, is there a generalization of big-sigma summation that allows- where gsumm is the name of the generalization- a*b := gsumm(1, b, λ _ -> a)
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22:41:06 <shachaf> That's not a generalization.
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22:41:33 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, but we're including when a and b aren't integers
22:42:00 <hppavilion[1]> (I mean, obviously you could just say in this case that if b isn't an integer, you take it with the floor of b and add one more a multiplied by the nonintegral part of b)
22:42:10 <hppavilion[1]> (But I'm going for any sort of general case)
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22:54:57 <int-e> \oren\: why braille instead of ▀?
22:56:48 <shachaf> What's generalized about gsumm?
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23:02:46 <\oren\> int-e: whoops
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