←2016-11-07 2016-11-08 2016-11-09→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:20 <zzo38> The first part I think so at least.
00:00:35 <oerjan> yeah.
00:00:46 <zzo38> (Since you can just avoid to use some of the axioms.)
00:01:08 <oerjan> the second too, since you can still use all the old ones.
00:01:13 <Taneb> Is this analagous to linearly independent and spanning sets of vectors?
00:01:21 <oerjan> Taneb: i guess.
00:02:21 <Taneb> Although probably not usefully, unless it turns out systems of axioms form a vector space
00:03:39 <oerjan> well linearly independent implies two things, only one of which is analogous.
00:03:59 <oerjan> or does it
00:04:10 <oerjan> that part of the analogy is a little weak, anyway.
00:04:31 <oerjan> because you can add more axioms without contradicting the old ones, even if they're complete.
00:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: That would be nice
00:05:02 <Taneb> oerjan, they wouldn't be "linearly independent", then
00:05:03 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: And it probably does (or something similar), knowing math
00:05:32 <oerjan> Taneb: which is why the analogy is weak.
00:06:39 <Taneb> Hmm, yes
00:06:57 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Do vectors in a vector space have to by multipliable by *numbers* like it says in Wikipedia's first paragraph, or are other sets of scalars sufficient?
00:07:09 <oerjan> maybe a better analogy is "does not contain this vector", and "has maximal span subject to not containing that vector"
00:07:09 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it has to be a field
00:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. strings)
00:07:13 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: OK
00:07:23 <Taneb> Most fields are kind of numbery
00:07:46 <Taneb> Even the algebraic closure of the finite field of order 27
00:07:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it can even be ring, except then you call it a module instead of a vector space.
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Which I like
00:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I'm going to try and figure out if axiomatic systems (or some subset of axiomatic systems) form a vector space...
00:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I keep using the word "axiomatic" in searches. Is that a real word, or did I make that up?)
00:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it's real
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00:10:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: almost certainly not. or even abelian group.
00:10:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Some subset might
00:10:46 <oerjan> maybe. it'd probably be contrived.
00:10:53 <Taneb> How do you multiply an axiom by a scalar
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00:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: The scalar would be from some field where a multiplication-like operation with an axiom makes sense
00:11:42 <oerjan> well, <=> is a group operation, actually.
00:12:12 <oerjan> (so is xor, but that's no going to be closed for theorems)
00:12:18 <oerjan> *not
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00:13:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i retract the claim it's not an abelian group hth
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00:13:17 <Taneb> ...over the set of theorems? What's the inverse operation?
00:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: If axioms have to always be of the form p -> q (for some propositions p and q) it might be something like (p -> q)*(r -> s) = (p&q -> r&s)
00:13:38 <oerjan> Taneb: every element is self-inverse
00:13:47 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that's vector multiplication, which is unnecessary
00:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Yeah, I'm just looking around for the moment
00:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Oh
00:13:56 <oerjan> and it'll be theorems modulo tautologies, i guess.
00:14:22 <Taneb> (A <=> B) <=> B =~= A?
00:14:42 <oerjan> what's that =~= doing there
00:14:46 <Taneb> Shit, this is 50% Pierce's Law, isn't it
00:14:51 <Taneb> oerjan, = looked lonely
00:15:07 <oerjan> Taneb: self-inverse just means ((A <=> A) <=> B) = B
00:15:19 <oerjan> or, A <=> A = True
00:15:31 <oerjan> where True happens to be the unit
00:15:59 <Taneb> I guess
00:16:09 <oerjan> it's just addition modulo 2, with True == 0 and False == 1
00:16:20 <oerjan> (opposite of usual)
00:16:37 <oerjan> (xor being the usual)
00:17:15 <Taneb> I think then, if we want it to be a vector space, the field must therefore be the finite field of order 2?
00:17:49 <oerjan> <Taneb> How do you multiply an axiom by a scalar <-- well this only works for the field Z_2 of course, but 0 * A = True and 1 * A = A
00:19:04 <Taneb> Horrifying thought: is this a Lie algebra (with Lie bracket [A, B] := A <=> B)
00:19:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok so theorems form a vector space over the 2-element field. (in fact also a ring, A * B = A or B)
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00:20:30 <computing> i derped.
00:20:42 <Taneb> I'm going to go to bed now, I think
00:20:43 <Taneb> Goodnight!
00:20:54 <computing> i didnt realise billygoat (#xkcd anti spam bot) would get at me for calling it 'the goat' instead of pinging it
00:21:16 <computing> yayyy 24 hour ban 4 me ):
00:21:38 <hppavilion[1]> computing: Wat?
00:22:18 <computing> hppavilion[1], it bans you for up to a day if you poke it. i was saying i would NEVER poke it >_>
00:22:25 <computing> i read what it does if you poke it :P
00:23:26 <oerjan> sounds like a "fun" channel.
00:23:52 <computing> https://g.redditmedia.com/vqY89uDMgXEonKx5Ui4mRsLxzOTIijy9TYOX-02Ch94.gif?w=720&fm=mp4&mp4-fragmented=false&s=387be5aad48a663fd5a7ebcebbf28102
00:23:54 <computing> lol
00:24:00 <computing> electric trump sign
00:24:41 <oerjan> oh, it's today
00:25:18 <ais523> oerjan: it's still tomorrow, really; if you're in the US it's still Monday, and if you're in a timezone where it's Tuesday you can't expect the results until Wednesday
00:25:32 <oerjan> OKAY
00:25:33 <ais523> assuming anyone lives in UTC-00:30, that will change in about 5 minutes
00:27:40 <oerjan> ais523: it doesn't seem so
00:28:14 * ais523 blames Africa for being uncreative
00:28:54 <oerjan> another half hour, and there's greenland, the azores and cape verde
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00:36:27 <oerjan> `dowg afk
00:36:29 <HackEgo> 6037:2015-09-28 <Jafët> learn Afk wrote a famous story about hang.
00:36:40 <oerjan> Jafet: wat
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00:40:31 <FireFly> `cat bin/dowg
00:40:32 <HackEgo> doag "wisdom/$1"
00:40:36 <FireFly> `cat bin/doag
00:40:36 <HackEgo> hlnp --removed --template "{rev}:{date|shortdate} {desc}\n" -- "$@"
00:40:53 <FireFly> `doag bin/doag
00:40:54 <HackEgo> 9542:2016-10-30 <oerjän> sled bin/doag//s/date/rev}:{date/ \ 9216:2016-10-10 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'s/hg log/hlnp/\' bin/{doag,hog} \ 8626:2016-06-27 <shachäf> mkx bin/doag//hg log --removed --template "{date|shortdate} {desc}\\n" -- "$@"
00:40:57 <oerjan> `? hoag
00:40:57 <FireFly> I see
00:40:58 <HackEgo> ​`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first.
00:41:12 <FireFly> ah
00:42:02 <oerjan> `slwd hoag//s/dates/revision number and dates/
00:42:04 <HackEgo> hoag//`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision number and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first.
00:42:19 <oerjan> `slwd hoag//s/number/numbers/
00:42:21 <HackEgo> hoag//`[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision numbers and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first.
00:52:20 <Jafet> oerjan: it was actually an amou tor bou hang hth
00:55:05 <ais523> `? slwd
00:55:06 <HackEgo> ​`slwd <wisdom name>//<sed script>
00:55:29 * oerjan still confusel
01:01:33 <Jafet> I think the main character was named Rego Ams
01:03:57 <oerjan> oh.
01:04:45 <oerjan> i suspected that but couldn't get the "hang" part.
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01:25:34 <oerjan> `` dowg mapole | grep 6
01:25:41 <HackEgo> 8556:2016-06-22 <boil̈y> ` sed -i "s/\'/\xe2\x80\x99/" wisdom/mapole \ 5922:2015-08-22 <oerjän> learn_append mapole A regulatory mapole measures 6\' by 12 kg, \xc2\xb10.5 inHg. \ 5511:2015-06-11 <oerjän> learn_append mapole The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
01:26:04 <oerjan> hm it seems to be my fault.
01:26:49 <shachaf> `? mapole
01:26:51 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:27:13 <oerjan> ah no. it was an official statement by boily.
01:27:13 <shachaf> oerjan: are you heffalump or woozle twh
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01:29:01 <oerjan> irrelevant, as i'm no longer confusel hth
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02:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: itym confuzzled hth
02:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> (alt: confus)
02:06:42 <hppavilion[1]> (accusative singular: confum; genitive singular: confī; dative and ablative singulars: confō)
02:07:03 <hppavilion[1]> (plural: confae)
02:07:05 <hppavilion[1]> `? os
02:07:06 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
02:07:14 <hppavilion[1]> I JUST got that joke there.
02:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> "-us" is the second declension irregular nominative (and vocative) suffix in Latin, "-os" is the second declension irregular accusative plural.
02:10:07 <hppavilion[1]> Presumably, the normal plural of us is... i. OK then.
02:10:22 <hppavilion[1]> (or ei or ae)
02:10:29 <hppavilion[1]> (or ii)
02:12:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if "complex number" is considered feminine in grammatically gendered languages.... <-- French/Italian/Spanish/Albanian/Hebrew/Greek: masculine. German: feminine. Norwegian/Swedish/Danish/Icelandic/Dutch/Russian: neuter.
02:12:50 <oerjan> conclusion: not particularly often.
02:12:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Thank you. It should be.
02:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> (The joke being that FEMALES OF THE INFERIOR HUMAN SPECIES are complicated)
02:13:27 <oerjan> in general adjectives don't affect the gender of a noun hth
02:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: 'in general' itptdh
02:14:03 <oerjan> (there'll be some exception somewhere, i just know it)
02:14:30 <oerjan> `? itptdh
02:14:31 <HackEgo> itptdh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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02:15:17 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I JUST got that joke there. <-- learn latin and understand more jokes!
02:15:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: itptdh = itp tdh; itp = "is the part"
02:16:02 <ais523> "us" is an accusative plural in English, isn't it? one of the few accusative plurals that are different from the nominative plural
02:16:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yaaay!
02:16:16 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (plural: confae) <-- that seems a bit irregular.
02:16:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: "us" is in the object case and is plural?
02:16:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: confi is too easy
02:16:32 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's the accusative of "we", which is the plural of "I"
02:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: itym it's the plural of "me", which is the accusative of "I"
02:17:11 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: OK, wait, what does the accusative do again?
02:17:14 <ais523> that too,
02:17:19 <oerjan> (also, what's irregular about -us and -os, they're about the most regular suffixes latin's got...)
02:17:24 <ais523> it's a commutative diagram of English grammar
02:17:42 <ais523> and accusative is used for nouns used as objects (i.e. something that is being verbed)
02:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: OK, yes, it's accusative
02:17:52 <ais523> *«verb»ed
02:18:10 <ais523> I meant it as a metasyntactic verb, not as the actual verb "verb"
02:18:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: wikipediasaidsoitsnotmyfault!
02:19:18 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: wikipediasaidsoitsnotmyfault! <-- link?
02:19:33 <oerjan> i may want to correct or check for vandals.
02:19:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: closed the tab already, but I think it's that it was in the section for "deus"
02:20:06 <oerjan> in which article?
02:20:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There was a whole thing about how "deus" is irregular, I guess it listed -us and -os as well because they aren't the irregular part
02:20:47 <oerjan> OKAY
02:21:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, latin vandals?
02:21:42 <zzo38> GURPS rules says that if your character is alcoholic then you must roll against HT+2 every year or else you permanently lose one point of one of your four basic attributes selected at random. I think that is going to be a bit difficult with only six-sided dice (although, you could reroll until you get 1-4).
02:22:45 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Roll, multiply by 4/6, round?
02:23:50 <zzo38> It is not uniform if you do that.
02:24:19 <zzo38> (It doesn't say it has to be uniform, but I think it would normally imply such thing by default.)
02:24:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: vandals are everywhere.
02:25:50 <hppavilion[1]> ørjan: Have you considered seeing a ψchologist about your paranoia?
02:26:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, does your client beep on ørjan?
02:26:34 <oerjan> apparently the albanian wikipedia is one of those that message you the first time you just visit it
02:27:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nah. my log searches catch it, though.
02:27:11 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:27:21 <oerjan> in my client, it doesn't even catch oerjan everywhere.
02:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well ^^^^^^
02:27:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: psychologists are the worst, obviously.
02:28:31 <oerjan> actually it never beeps anyway, just colors your nick red.
02:28:40 * oerjan doesn't like too much beeping.
02:28:56 <zzo38> In my client it won't beep on anything unless I push an incorrect key or use /ECHO to print a bell character or use /F to trigger beeping for certain messages (which can be by regular expression).
02:29:30 <zzo38> (The /F command is also used to highlight messages and to suppress messages too, not only to beep.)
02:29:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan↡ I now have evil nick completion
02:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> AFK
02:30:17 <oerjan> `unidecode ↡
02:30:17 <HackEgo> ​[U+21A1 DOWNWARDS TWO HEADED ARROW]
02:36:53 <oerjan> `slwd Ø//s/$/./
02:36:57 <HackEgo> ​Ø//Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug.
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03:26:19 * hppavilion[1] has returned- with a vengeance
03:26:36 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, /me doesn't un/away me
03:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> shaval = (sgn) * (exp . abs . log . abs)
03:33:50 <zzo38> What is that, and what is that for?
03:39:33 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: it's a function, and it's for making statistical values more clear
03:39:56 <zzo38> I know it is the function. Can you give an example though?
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03:42:15 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: While the relationship (n^-1) between 33/100 and 100/33 is clear when written as fractions, it isn't immediately clear that 0.33 and 3.030303... have the same relationship (even though they're exactly the same value). shaval- as I was introduced to by (and possibly invented by) shachaf- basically finds the proportion of the smaller value to the larger
03:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Essentially, it has the nice property shaval(x) = shaval(1/x)
03:42:53 <shachaf> ?
03:43:17 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I named (and slightly extended) exp . abs . log
03:43:27 <zzo38> I do not completely understand the notation. I would guess that . means composition but I don't actually understand it so well
03:43:41 <shachaf> what?
03:44:04 <hppavilion[1]> (alternative names if Mr. Chaf disapproves of this name: Multiplicative Absolute Value/mav(x), Absolute Proportional Value/apv(x))
03:44:19 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...you were the one who wanted a name for exp . abs . log, right?
03:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: . is composition. Basically, it's equal to 1/x if |x| < 1, else it's equal to x.
03:48:04 <\oren\> That factory game is addictive
03:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> Henceforth: the name of / shall be s/ash, because linguistic & typographic names should be self-demonstrating as frequently as possible in order to make it easy to understand
03:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> Similarly, It's an ümlaut, not an umlaut.
03:50:17 <\oren\> http://ctrlv.in/880866
03:54:45 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: are you defining f * g as \x. f(x) * g(x)?
03:54:54 <ais523> because I don't think that's a standard definition
03:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: yes hth
03:54:57 <ais523> it's not even pointwise
03:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That's what they taught me in school, which made me sad
03:55:23 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But I figured it was standard, and it was convenient here
03:55:31 <ais523> I guess it's analogous to the f² notation
03:55:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Or, well, they at least taught (f+g)(x) = f(x)+g(x)
03:55:33 <hppavilion[1]> )
03:55:45 <shachaf> ais523: Why isn't it pointwise?
03:56:14 <ais523> oh, hmm, maybe it is pointwise
03:56:19 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I prefer to think of f² as being f . f, and that multiplication over functions is composition (which is mathematically accurate, it's beginning to appear)
03:56:22 <ais523> it's hard to generalise pointwiseness to things other than matrices
03:56:34 <shachaf> > (sin * cos) 5
03:56:37 <lambdabot> -0.2720105554446849
03:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> > sin 5 * cos 5
03:56:45 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: just look at Underload
03:56:46 <lambdabot> -0.2720105554446849
03:56:59 <ais523> * is function composition, ^ is function application
03:57:35 <ais523> so (f * g)(x) is f(g(x)), (f ^ g)(x) is (f(g))(x)
03:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Does that satisfy the math rules? I forget
03:57:58 <ais523> err, not sure if I have the arguments the right way round there
03:58:31 <ais523> (f * g)(x) is g(f(x)), (f ^ g)(x) is (g(f))(x)
03:58:31 <shachaf> ais523: just define values as functions from 1 hth
03:58:42 <ais523> and it works on Church numerals
04:01:04 <shachaf> That's an interesting justification for those symbols.
04:02:06 <ais523> well I had to call them something!
04:02:46 <shachaf> I suppose (f^g)^h = f^(g*h)
04:03:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: f(g) . f(h) = p(g, h), find def. p tdnhbwh
04:03:23 <hppavilion[1]> (funs f, g, h)
04:03:55 <ais523> shachaf: yes, and that's more obvious when you express it in reverse polish (like Underload actually uses)
04:04:10 <shachaf> More obvious than regular polish?
04:04:30 <ais523> (f)(g)^(h)^ = (f)gh = (f)(gh)^ = (f)(g)(h)*^
04:05:24 <ais523> in regular polish you have to worry about the arity of ^
04:05:31 <ais523> in reverse polish it doesn't matter, (x)^ and x are 100% synonymous
04:06:34 <shachaf> when all you have is nail polish, everything looks like a nail
04:06:56 <ais523> (in this notation, as in Underload, «(f)» is the function f used as a value/operand, plain «f» is the same function used as an operator)
04:07:12 <ais523> shachaf: is that an antiantipun?
04:07:26 <shachaf> I think it's just a pun.
04:07:34 <ais523> it superficially works on multiple levels but none of them actually make sense
04:07:47 <ais523> I've heard lines like that before and spent a while trying to work out if they were the regular sort of pun or something else
04:08:00 <ais523> like, it's the pun version of referential humour
04:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: itym antbipun hth
04:08:18 <shachaf> "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" is a common saying about not using the right tool for the job or something.
04:08:33 <shachaf> This is just punning on "nail" in that saying.
04:08:47 <ais523> instead of admitting two sensible interpretations, it has zero, but there's multiple different ways to read it as a reference to something
04:08:53 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A wise man once told me that sometimes, everything really is a nail
04:09:12 <ais523> yes but the reference to polish is relevant too
04:09:13 <hppavilion[1]> This was after a severe head injury, so whether he was wise at the time is up for debate
04:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think we should annex reverse polish notation
04:09:58 <shachaf> The reference to polish is admittedly not invtended to make sense.
04:10:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: had he had too much to smoke as well?
04:10:19 <shachaf> Hmm, I suppose "invtended" means "intended to invent", or "invented with intent".
04:10:26 <shachaf> Which Taneb doesn't seem to do much of.
04:10:53 <ais523> is it possible for something to invent itself?
04:11:32 <shachaf> Why not?
04:11:45 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out if it leads to an ontological paradox
04:11:47 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: maths
04:11:53 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, the long line, locales, and histograms.
04:12:01 <oerjan> only a time travel one hth
04:12:01 <shachaf> Taneb invented all things that do not invent themselves.
04:12:21 <shachaf> `? tanebventory
04:12:22 <HackEgo> The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
04:12:29 <ais523> that said, this is getting well into Feather territory
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04:13:24 <ais523> (even though I haven't figured out how to make it work, I still think it's possible to make a language in which all interpreters are written in the language itself and execute via an infinite chain of interpreters)
04:13:46 <ais523> I know the general approach you'd take, you generate the lower interpreters lazily
04:14:32 <shachaf> `? ngeventions
04:14:38 <HackEgo> ngeventions? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:14:45 <shachaf> I'm sure it'll exist ngeventually.
04:14:47 <shachaf> Tanebventually?
04:15:03 <\oren\> http://img.ctrlv.in/img/16/11/08/5821511dcb3c8.png
04:15:37 <shachaf> have you considered switching to factorio
04:15:40 <shachaf> it's much more fun hth
04:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, he didn't smoke. He was wise, remember?
04:30:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: He figured out the cigarette-lung cancer thing a mere 10 years after it should have been blatantly obvious
04:31:58 <oerjan> clever
04:32:28 <shachaf> As they say: A clever person can get out of trouble that a wise person doesn't get into.
04:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, exactly
04:59:09 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: A lawyer can get you into trouble, then charge you $500/hour to get you out
05:01:56 * hppavilion[1] . ø Ø ( An expert in Norwegian law should be called a "lawjer", even in english )
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05:15:22 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, for some reason, my font program can't render the smiggledygook...
05:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, I see why
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05:23:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "advokat" hth
05:23:36 <oerjan> for a start, norwegian doesn't natively have "w".
05:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, "lawjer". It's not supposed to be in Norwegian, it's just supposed to be indicative that it's Norwayey
05:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Norwic? Norwayular? Norwoidal?)
05:26:08 <oerjan> "norsk"
05:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ...I thought something in "for a start, norwegian doesn't natively have \"w\"." looked wrong. I figured out what it is.
05:26:42 <hppavilion[1]> "norwegian doesn't ... have [w]"
05:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> 'norWegian has no \'w\''
05:27:08 <shachaf> maybe you should spell it out a little more
05:27:16 <shachaf> you know, with a diagram
05:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> then whence the fuck comes the 'w' in norwegian
05:27:32 <shachaf> maybe a video where you move the letters around
05:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Look at the capitalization
05:28:05 <hppavilion[1]> ("whence the fuck", like all archaic english constructions mixed with modern slang, is a fun sentence)
05:28:20 <shachaf> There's nothing archaic about "whence".
05:28:27 <shachaf> And anyway you're jus being needlessly crude.
05:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's archaic.
05:28:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I assure you, it's only ever used to make things sound old at this point.
05:29:26 <shachaf> Your assurance is wrong.
05:29:32 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whence#English
05:29:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the norwegian word for "norwegian" is "norsk". no w anywhere.
05:30:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, but who heard a Norwegian say "Norsk" and said "Hey, you know what'd make it so much better? If replaced 'sk' with 'wegian'!"
05:30:47 <hppavilion[1]> To which somebody presumably responded "Why? When have we ever used the term 'wegian'? Ever?"
05:31:13 <shachaf> @google where does the name norway come from
05:31:14 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway
05:31:15 <hppavilion[1]> NORwegians, NANDwegians, XORwegians, ORwegians, ANDwegians, XNORwegians.
05:31:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the old norse was "norveg", or something like that.
05:31:55 <oerjan> the v _may_ have been pronounced like a w, or it may have passed through a language which did.
05:32:21 <shachaf> "Norway has two official names: Noreg in Nynorsk (Old Norse: Noregr) and Norge in Bokmål (Old Norse: Noregi, dative of Noregr)."
05:32:40 <shachaf> Aha, so Nynorsk is like American and Bokmål is like British.
05:32:44 <oerjan> ok, so in _very_ old norse.
05:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> whence/thence/hence are related like where/there/here. Huh.
05:33:26 <oerjan> shachaf: not entirely. but in this case, nynorsk uses a more archaic form.
05:33:38 <shachaf> Yes, also whither/thither/hither.
05:33:41 <shachaf> It's standard English.
05:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> Presumably we can also have when/then/hen, what/that/hat, who/tho/ho (well, ho and who would be similar), why/thy/hy, wow/thow/how
05:34:41 <hppavilion[1]> I must use this discovery hith care
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06:44:30 <ais523> hmm, "when" and "then" actually follow the pattern too, but we say "now" not "hen"
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06:57:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50171&oldid=50145 * Slnetaiga * (+151)
06:57:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50172&oldid=50171 * Slnetaiga * (-16)
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07:04:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50173&oldid=50172 * Slnetaiga * (+14)
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07:07:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50174&oldid=50173 * Slnetaiga * (+205)
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07:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> I like ain't. It's a nice generic (am | are | is) not
07:09:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OOLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50175&oldid=50174 * Slnetaiga * (+160)
07:16:04 <zzo38> To me it is just "am not", but it doesn't matter so much because it can be understood in any of the cases.
07:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well, it's not just "am not" in usual usage- wait, are you saying you only use it for "am not" or that's how you parse it?
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07:31:02 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... what should the term be for a genocide on a small scale? Some use "genocidal massacre", others use "partial genocide".
07:31:10 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. the Parsley Massacre)
07:31:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'd argue we should just call it "genocide" because genocide is genocide and it's shitty either way
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08:04:17 <izalove> "My best code is written with the delete key."
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08:54:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I think it's called "racially motivated attacks"
08:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: That only covers extremely small-scale, rapid things- like a shooting in a black church
08:55:28 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Genocide is structured and happens over a time, usually with multiple people involved
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08:58:41 <b_jonas> hpp: um, ok, I thought you asked for small-scale
08:58:55 <b_jonas> if you want large-scale, then I think it's just "genocide"
09:00:44 <b_jonas> There, now at least four webcomic strips have put comments about the current US presidential election on their website, whether in the strip itself or in comments outisde
09:01:11 <b_jonas> Dilbert (duh), bobadventures, xkcd, and Questionable Content.
09:01:23 <b_jonas> wait, let me check qwantz quickly
09:02:35 <b_jonas> Ah, savage chickens too now! That makes five
09:06:43 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/water.jpg -- can't argue with that!
09:19:12 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Intermediate scale. Not in the millions, but not something you do in an afternoon
09:19:34 <hppavilion[1]> Several hundred to a few thousand dead, done in an organized fashion
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09:27:58 <b_jonas> What happens if you put a Kobolds of Kher Keep into a Time Machine?
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10:16:06 <shachaf> Taneb: 63 is even bigger than the cube root of 9
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10:44:36 <int-e> @tell boily No, systemd is a source of a lot of stress and frustration to me... too magical, and badly documented. It supplies wonders like "core dumped" messages with no core dump to be found (until you find the "coredumpctl" utility), and yesterday it provided me with the wonder of cups not being available (localhost:631 wasn't reachable) because systemd thought I had not done anything...
10:44:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
10:44:42 <int-e> ...printing related yet (so, apparently, running a simple command like "lpq" would start cupsd behind the curtains).
10:44:57 <int-e> @tell boily ...printing related yet (so, apparently, running a simple command like "lpq" would start cupsd behind the curtains).
10:44:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:55:31 <izalove> did some github staffer push broken css to prod?
10:55:57 <izalove> and with css i mean webthing
10:56:10 <izalove> http://i.imgur.com/CQHqdz2.png this happens in any project
10:58:31 <Deewiant> int-e: That might be worth a bug report to cups, sounds like their .socket file should specify the IPP port and not only the LPD port
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11:09:43 <int-e> izalove: doesn't seem to happen here
11:10:30 <izalove> you're too slow :(
11:10:33 <izalove> they fixed it now
11:19:10 <int-e> yay
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11:20:46 <Taneb> shachaf, that is a true but irrelevant statement
11:25:45 <int-e> fizzie: rain must be an awful thing to those people... imagine being hit by thin slices of water...
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11:33:37 <boily> `wisdom
11:33:43 <HackEgo> nundrum//A nundrum is the categorical dual of a conundrum: a problem whose solution is useless.
11:35:49 <boily> @massages-loud
11:35:50 <lambdabot> int-e said 51m 13s ago: No, systemd is a source of a lot of stress and frustration to me... too magical, and badly documented. It supplies wonders like "core dumped" messages with no core dump to be
11:35:50 <lambdabot> found (until you find the "coredumpctl" utility), and yesterday it provided me with the wonder of cups not being available (localhost:631 wasn't reachable) because systemd thought I had not done
11:35:50 <lambdabot> anything...
11:35:50 <lambdabot> int-e said 50m 52s ago: ...printing related yet (so, apparently, running a simple command like "lpq" would start cupsd behind the curtains).
11:37:07 <boily> int-ello. that is magical.
11:37:41 <int-e> boily: yes, it's awful
11:38:29 <int-e> now that I'm further down the rabbit hole I'm wondering why cupsd doesn't exit automatically as advertised.
11:38:37 * int-e blames Deewiant
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11:43:44 <boily> . o O ( Deewiant is alive? )
11:43:52 <Taneb> systemdeewiant
11:44:42 <izalove> deevuan
11:51:49 <int-e> boily: well, it spoke!
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11:56:29 <boily> `? Deewiant
11:56:32 <HackEgo> Deewiant is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing.
12:02:33 <b_jonas> argh
12:02:46 <b_jonas> reading co-workers code sometimes hurts a lot
12:03:01 <b_jonas> you should learn how to use dangerous stuff before you use it!
12:05:48 <boily> that's why Gerrit has a sweet, sweet -2.
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14:01:05 <moonythedwarf> moo3
14:01:51 <moonythedwarf> @messages-loud
14:01:52 <lambdabot> boily said 6d 2h 52m 22s ago: mhelloonythedwarf.
14:02:00 <moonythedwarf> ah
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16:24:33 <b_jonas> argh! internal error from the linker
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17:21:08 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXx8-iEX7cs
17:21:43 <\oren\> I was enjoying this song, when I realized who that guy in the photo is?
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17:34:15 <\oren\> Oh look, there was an election in the Yukon, and literally noone cares
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18:36:05 <zzo38> What GURPS book doesn't specify but I think they should is if a template modifiers your aging TL due to your character's species, since it seems like such a thing is reasonable to me. And also for some humans, due to religion and other things it may also qualify for a aging TL reduced by 1 or 2 maybe.
18:58:19 <\oren\> idea: dialup internet over skype!
18:58:42 <\oren\> write a skype bot that provides dialup internet access
18:59:21 <\oren\> then, when you want to surf the net, skype your bot and connect your modem
19:00:05 <\oren\> recurse until your internet grinds to a halt
19:01:55 <b_jonas> ouch... why skype? that's just horrible
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19:06:42 <moonythedwarf> r
19:09:44 <Zarutian> I look in askance at what the hell the Indian Prime Minster is trying to achive by 'demonitizing' the current Rs1000 and Rs500 notes
19:11:39 <Zarutian> there is nothing stoppening someone who is well known and of high reputation in the local community to just exchange prompty Rs1000 from people that do not trust the promptness of local banks or post offices for cheques of same domination to bearer.
19:12:30 <Zarutian> double striked to indicate that the bank must honour the cheque regardless of the account balance.
19:14:26 <Zarutian> and when the furror is over then accept back those cheques after having withdrawn as much as possible without triggering the panic bells in clerks heads
19:16:27 <Zarutian> this Modi character says that he is doing this to counter 'money laundary' which is highly hypocritical of him when he most likely has accounts in 'offshore' countries
19:18:06 <Zarutian> "Lets ignore these hardships and participate in nation building!" (somewhat paraphrased) he said.
19:19:47 <Zarutian> I cannot but think that these are just the first signs of someone wich would think that 'National Socialism' is a good idea, we all know how that did to the Weimar Republic dont we?
19:20:51 <Zarutian> ?Coke-index India
19:20:51 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
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19:27:42 <Zarutian> one 33cl can of Coke costs 25.9 Rs. So six sixpacks is 932.4 Rs. Which means that you cant even buy that much for a small party with a single note.
19:28:01 <zzo38> Now I made up a GURPS character, and I can also help the other players to do because I know how it works and wrote a computer program to help to do it too!
19:28:35 <zzo38> (I also wrote program to calculate age statistics for GURPS characters and attribute losses due to alcoholism.)
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19:32:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: good
19:43:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:OOLANG]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50176 * TuxCrafting * (+119) Created page with "Don't look very esoteric ~~~~"
19:54:58 <zzo38> Customizations I made to Amoebax make a more difficult game and I have not been able to earn more than 4295 points (that was 14 months ago).
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19:56:35 <hppavilion[1]> Mostigarchy: Not QUITE an oligarchy, but but close
19:57:29 <zzo38> (Edit the key configuration to player 1 to what you want, and then edit ~/.config/amoebax/options.conf to set the second player's controls the same as the first player, and then select a tournament game and play both sides with the same controls!)
20:00:09 <zzo38> The game will be symmetric until ghost blocks appear, which will be different on each side, and break the symmetry. and then it starts to get more difficult. There are still various techniques to try such as blocking the falling piece on one side with other blocks and move only the other's left/right, and to try to "hard sync" the pieces, although this can be difficult.
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20:10:24 <izalove> so who's winning this election thing?
20:10:29 <izalove> i need a quick answer for a bet
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20:11:08 <myname> either a giant douche or a turd sandwicz
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20:12:19 <izalove> can't bet on those
20:21:54 <b_jonas> izalove: we don't know yet. and if we knew, we'd be making the bet and win money.
20:22:19 <b_jonas> izalove: you'll probably get a high confidence answer tomorrow during the day
20:22:31 <izalove> i bet people are already betting on it
20:22:37 <izalove> you don't need to be sure to bet
20:22:48 <\oren\> in 4 hours the first state results will come
20:22:51 <b_jonas> izalove: the problem is that it's still during the day in Merca so people are still voting
20:23:13 <b_jonas> after they stopped voting, they'll count quick, but they can't start counting before that
20:23:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: 4 hours from what?
20:23:23 <b_jonas> from now?
20:23:28 <\oren\> from now yes
20:23:45 <b_jonas> aren't people still voting until the American west coast evening, which is the morning here
20:23:46 <\oren\> the plls close in some states at 7 eastern time
20:23:48 <b_jonas> ?
20:24:28 <\oren\> so the result will be narrowed down considerably by 9 eastern
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20:25:16 <\oren\> it is even possible that the race will be entirely decided by 9 o clock
20:25:44 <\oren\> alaska polls close last so they almost never get to matter
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20:27:13 <izalove> is the system fully electronic?
20:27:18 <izalove> or do you still use paper?
20:27:19 <\oren\> no
20:27:37 <\oren\> they use some machines and some paper
20:27:55 <\oren\> depending on state, county, blahblahblah
20:28:51 <\oren\> at 7:00 Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, S. Carolina, Vermont, and Virginia close
20:29:31 <\oren\> at 7:30 N. Carolina, Ohio, and West Virginia
20:29:49 <\oren\> at that point, 98 electoral points are in
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20:30:27 <izalove> TIL n carolina's timezone has a 30min offset
20:32:22 <\oren\> at 8:00 Alabama, Coneticut, Delaware, Florida, Ilinoise, Maine, Maryland, Massatushits, Misisippi, Missuri, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Pennyslvania, Rhode Island, Tennisee come in
20:33:23 <\oren\> those bring the total to 270 meaning that if someone gets every single one they have won the election
20:33:48 <izalove> sounds likely
20:33:59 <\oren\> at 8:30 Arkansas comes in adding 6 more
20:34:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: isn't there a delay between when the polls close and when the results come in?
20:34:32 <izalove> b_jonas: technologyyyyy
20:34:51 <\oren\> Yes, so all I'm saying is it's possible that the result will be known at 9 o clock
20:36:43 <\oren\> at 9:00, Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Luisiana, Michigan, Minisota, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, North and South Dakota, Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming come in
20:37:08 <\oren\> adding 156 more points
20:37:34 <\oren\> and that usually decides it
20:38:17 <\oren\> at 10:00, Iowa, Montana, Nevada, Utah come in, adding 21
20:39:03 <\oren\> at 11:00 California, Hawaii, Idaho, Oregon, Washington come in adding 82
20:39:35 <\oren\> and at 1:00 in the morning, Alaska shows up
20:39:43 -!- int-e has left.
20:41:34 <\oren\> so, I think unless there's a serious problem, the result will be decided by 10 pm eastern today
20:41:59 <\oren\> rember what Al Gore tried to do
20:44:10 <\oren\> if any state is even slightly close, there could be lots of recounting the votes
20:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> Was the Analytical Engine TC (assuming you used an infinite-memory adaptation)?
20:52:53 <hppavilion[1]> (God, what's the term for languages that are TC, except for the part where they have finite memory due to implementation issues?)
20:53:39 <\oren\> theoretically turing complete?
20:53:49 <Zarutian> memory bound turing complete?
20:53:58 <Taneb> Finite state automaton?
20:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Sure?
20:54:20 <\oren\> note that most machine codes are not turing complete even in thoery
20:54:27 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Yes, but there are machines that are FSAs even with indefinite size iirc
20:54:27 <Zarutian> Taneb: those arent turing complete.
20:54:39 <\oren\> because they necessitate finite length pointers
20:54:44 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But computers with finite memory behave like FSAs
20:55:01 <Taneb> Zarutian, a Turing machine with finite memory is a finite state automaton
20:55:57 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: really? I thought Finate State Automata was only for stuff with enumerable states
20:56:13 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Proof incoming
20:56:40 <myname> finite memory implies finite states
20:56:49 <Zarutian> however FSA with two push down stacks is TC
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20:58:07 <Zarutian> \oren\: what about relative pointers? In systems that use something like Google wandering wholenum for keeping ints and pointers
21:00:09 <izalove> if you reject zf's axiom of infinity, a "fsa" with a reasonably large amount of memory is a turing machine
21:00:10 <\oren\> yes, if a machine only supports relative pointers, then there's no limit on memroy
21:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> A turing machine with _k_ non-halting states, a symbol alphabet of the set _A_, and a bounded tape of length _t_ can be translated into an FSA with at most _k*t*|A|^t_ states [I think that's the number] by simply taking the states for each possible tape setup and making them separate, then transforming to the sub-FSA associated with the desired change in tape. Or something like that.
21:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: ^^^
21:02:08 <hppavilion[1]> (I think. I got that number because the tape has t states each of which can be one of the values in A- |A| options- it has a position from 1 to t (hence *t), and k because it is in one of the k non-halting states)
21:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I need a +1 for the halting state)
21:06:44 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( A half-child is a half-sibling of your full child who is not also your full child )
21:12:26 * moonythedwarf finally got the Multiplayer Dwarf Fortress thing working with the help of iczero and wonders if anyone wants to play
21:13:05 <myname> how do you "multiplay" there?
21:15:44 <moonythedwarf> using a novnc server.
21:15:46 <moonythedwarf> :P
21:16:03 <moonythedwarf> its just a vnc viewer that some users can control, others just watch
21:16:15 <myname> so everybody breaks everybody elses attempts to do something
21:16:26 <moonythedwarf> its best not to control fight, namely because the glacier is deadly
21:16:37 <moonythedwarf> i try and keep it somewhat organised
21:16:47 <moonythedwarf> want the link?
21:16:52 <myname> i could never wrap around my head on a way to actually make a multiplayer df like
21:18:55 <Zarutian> is dwarf fortress turn based?
21:19:03 * Zarutian really cant remember
21:19:16 <moonythedwarf> no. your thinking of community forts
21:19:41 <moonythedwarf> the df multiplayer thing is turnbased tho :P
21:19:43 <myname> Zarutian: obviously you aren't playing enough
21:19:47 <moonythedwarf> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=160965.0 << the thread, with a link
21:19:57 <moonythedwarf> and the viewonly password as well
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21:59:54 <wob_jonas> ROFL webpage says they aim to deliver at most 99% of the packages to the destination the morning after the order
22:00:20 <myname> ... at most?
22:00:42 <wob_jonas> yes
22:00:55 <wob_jonas> http://www.220foto.hu/szallitas.php#pickpackpont
22:00:58 <myname> so they might as well just do nothing?
22:01:14 <wob_jonas> yes
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22:02:40 <wob_jonas> though if they don't deliver at all then you get your money back, so not doing anything with any package wouldn't be a very good business strategy
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22:19:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: deliver all packages when the recipient is about to die
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23:18:28 <boily> fungot: have you voted?
23:18:28 <fungot> boily: or possibly hot tuna. they've been pestering me since 1998. :o :o :o
23:19:46 <Taneb> boily, I'm not convinced fungot is a US citizen
23:19:47 <fungot> Taneb: but right, a day makes, huh....
23:19:53 <Taneb> Or over the age of 18 for that matter
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23:21:36 <moonheart08> helloily
23:22:20 <boily> Tanelle, mhellonhellort08.
23:22:47 <moonheart08> -ping
23:24:32 <boily> +pong
23:24:32 <xa0> Ping!
23:25:00 <boily> ^botsnack
23:25:00 <fungot> Oh nom nom nom!
23:26:35 <boily> !botsnack
23:26:40 <boily> @botsnack
23:26:40 <lambdabot> :)
23:26:52 <boily> ?botsnack
23:26:52 <lambdabot> :)
23:27:01 <boily> > botsnack
23:27:03 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: botsnack
23:27:17 <boily> `botsnack
23:27:28 <boily> ...?
23:27:33 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
23:27:38 <moonheart08> HackEgo is being slow :P
23:27:46 <moonheart08> `cat /bin/botsnack
23:27:50 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/botsnack: No such file or directory
23:28:07 <izalove> https://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/bash-completion-devel/2016-November/thread.html what the f is happening :D
23:29:37 <boily> ooooh, phedex phishing!
23:31:30 <ybden> izalove: :D
23:32:02 <ybden> what's in the zips?
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23:37:08 <izalove> one of the attachments was this http://arin.ga/FedEx.doc
23:38:22 <ybden> Oho
23:38:37 <ybden> Tricks people into enabling macros
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23:48:40 <zzo38> If it is Microsoft Word, then I would think probably people work in Debian are not using it. (Other typesetting system which is better and for use on Linux include troff and TeX; each has its advantages and disadvantages. I use troff for man pages and TeX for other typesetting.)
23:50:37 <shachaf> Microsoft Word isn't just a typesetting system.
23:51:09 <zzo38> I know, it is more than that, although in most cases there are better ways to do it anyways.
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23:52:34 <shachaf> Is that true?
23:52:48 <wob_jonas> do any of you use Krita (the gui raster image editor software that is)? if so, do you like it?
23:52:56 <boily> MS Word is a Picture Displacement Application.
23:56:41 <zzo38> No, I use ImageMagick and Farbfeld-Utilities (the latter I wrote myself) to manipulate pictures. There is also the program "bitmap" for editing monochrome pictures in X if needed, although Farbfeld-Utilities currently does not support that file format.
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23:57:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I mostly use ImageMagick and gimp, sometimes other stuff too.
23:57:42 <zzo38> Have you seen my Farbfeld Utilities programs?
23:57:50 <wob_jonas> But I wonder if I should examine Krita in more detail to find out if it would be worth for me to use it, and maybe you eso guys can give a summary about what's good and bad in it.
23:57:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, I haven't seen that
23:58:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: have you seen ImageMagick 7 by the way?
23:58:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you have an URL for that?
23:58:30 <zzo38> I have version 6.6.9-7; I have not seen ImageMagick 7, but I have read some things about it
23:58:45 <zzo38> For Farbfeld Utilities, the URL is: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/
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23:59:22 <zzo38> You can contribute stuff too if you have written some
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