←2018-07 2018-08 2018-09→ ↑2018 ↑all
2018-08-01
00:04:34 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57094 * BMO * (+4686) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=6 |paradigms=[[:Category:Functional_paradigm|functional]] |author=[https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:BMO BMO] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |typesys= |..."
00:16:20 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57095&oldid=57094 * BMO * (+249)
00:22:06 <esowiki> [[User:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57096&oldid=53961 * BMO * (+57)
00:22:19 <esowiki> [[User:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57097&oldid=57096 * BMO * (+1)
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01:20:54 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57098&oldid=56486 * Challenger5 * (+148)
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01:43:20 <Syfer> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
01:43:23 <Syfer> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
01:43:27 <Syfer> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
01:43:29 <Syfer> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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01:59:16 <okdas> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
01:59:20 <okdas> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
01:59:23 <okdas> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
01:59:26 <okdas> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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02:01:21 <Humbedooh24> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:01:24 <Humbedooh24> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
02:01:28 <Humbedooh24> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
02:01:31 <Humbedooh24> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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02:21:06 <manish13> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:21:09 <manish13> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
02:21:12 <manish13> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
02:21:15 <manish13> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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02:34:31 <mentifis10> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
02:34:34 <mentifis10> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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03:06:44 <quintopia> can we plox set this channel +s for a while
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03:13:59 <Welcome> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
03:14:02 <Welcome> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
03:14:06 <Welcome> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
03:14:09 <Welcome> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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03:16:17 <Adran15> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
03:16:21 <Adran15> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
03:16:24 <Adran15> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
03:16:28 <Adran15> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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03:43:10 <webpigeon22> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
03:43:13 <webpigeon22> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
03:43:16 <webpigeon22> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
03:43:20 <webpigeon22> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:31:09 <eth212> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
04:31:12 <eth212> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
04:31:16 <eth212> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
04:31:19 <eth212> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:33:01 <kl420017> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
04:33:05 <kl420017> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
04:33:05 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57099&oldid=57098 * Ais523 * (-2) /* Implementations */ cat ("unimplemented" needs to be changed to "implemented" when an implementation is added)
04:33:08 <kl420017> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
04:33:11 <kl420017> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:34:46 <esowiki> [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57100&oldid=57099 * Ais523 * (+18) /* Commands */ fix the discussion of the error condition
04:40:51 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57101&oldid=56239 * A * (+493) /* HTML / Javascript */
04:45:42 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57102&oldid=57101 * A * (-16) Modifying to make it shorter.
04:46:36 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57103&oldid=57102 * A * (+0) T_T a mess
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04:53:18 <fwilson> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
04:53:22 <fwilson> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
04:53:26 <fwilson> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
04:53:28 <fwilson> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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04:57:05 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57104&oldid=57103 * A * (+51) /* HTML / Javascript */
05:00:34 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57105&oldid=57104 * A * (+5) /* HTML / Javascript */
05:17:11 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57106&oldid=54216 * Challenger5 * (+18)
05:19:26 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57107&oldid=57105 * Oerjan * (+1) /* HTML / Javascript */ Fix common bug
05:20:10 <esowiki> [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57108&oldid=53132 * Challenger5 * (+18)
05:24:45 <esowiki> [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57109&oldid=57106 * Challenger5 * (+23)
05:25:40 <esowiki> [[MiniPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57110&oldid=54217 * Challenger5 * (+18)
05:27:19 <esowiki> [[Minscode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57111&oldid=50530 * Challenger5 * (+110)
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05:29:03 <mcintosh16> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:29:07 <mcintosh16> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:29:10 <mcintosh16> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:29:13 <mcintosh16> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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05:31:18 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57112&oldid=57092 * Challenger5 * (+42)
05:32:19 <esowiki> [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57113&oldid=54162 * Challenger5 * (+96)
05:33:41 <esowiki> [[Minipy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57114&oldid=50376 * Challenger5 * (+97)
05:35:06 <esowiki> [[Minipy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57115&oldid=57114 * Challenger5 * (+29)
05:35:18 <esowiki> [[Check]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57116&oldid=52019 * Challenger5 * (+96)
05:36:33 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57117&oldid=54508 * Challenger5 * (+92)
05:37:01 <esowiki> [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57118&oldid=57113 * Challenger5 * (+25)
05:37:43 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57119&oldid=57117 * Challenger5 * (+29)
05:38:48 <esowiki> [[Momema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57120&oldid=54163 * Challenger5 * (+25)
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05:41:44 <jorik1> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:41:47 <jorik1> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:41:51 <jorik1> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:41:54 <jorik1> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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05:49:58 <radiofree27> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:50:02 <radiofree27> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:50:05 <radiofree27> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:50:08 <radiofree27> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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05:55:40 <guest3546> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
05:55:43 <guest3546> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
05:55:47 <guest3546> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
05:55:50 <guest3546> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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06:38:52 <esowiki> [[Momema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57121&oldid=57120 * Challenger5 * (+2590)
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07:03:09 <red-00123> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:03:12 <red-00123> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:03:16 <red-00123> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:03:20 <red-00123> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:05:55 <int-e> sigh
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07:07:29 <beaver6> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:07:33 <beaver6> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:07:36 <beaver6> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:07:40 <beaver6> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
07:09:40 <int-e> fizzie: if you're around, could you consider something like +q $~a or +r? This spam is getting a bit out of hand right now, and the spammers aren't even caught by Sigyn anymore because, either because they're staying away from the big channels now or because all those channels are blocking these messages so Sigyn can't see them (I don't know which it is).
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07:17:42 <guntbert24> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:17:45 <guntbert24> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:17:49 <guntbert24> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:17:52 <guntbert24> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:21:25 <janus29> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:21:29 <janus29> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:21:32 <janus29> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:21:35 <janus29> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:22:54 <dwC--> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:22:54 <dwC--> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:22:54 <dwC--> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:22:58 <dwC--> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:25:34 <int-e> FireFly: mniip: grumble: oh you have power here as well
07:26:29 <int-e> (I think? Or is adding freenode-staff to the access list cosmetic?)
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07:27:42 <Yoda6> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:27:46 <Yoda6> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:27:49 <Yoda6> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:27:52 <Yoda6> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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07:34:58 <mniip> int-e, "freenode-staff" is cosmetic
07:35:20 <int-e> sad
07:36:09 <int-e> but yeah I guess it should be *!*@freenode/staff/* to be effective
07:46:28 * Taneb still ill but less so
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07:47:38 <SakiiR17> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
07:47:42 <SakiiR17> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
07:47:45 <SakiiR17> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
07:47:48 <SakiiR17> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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08:03:00 <matze16> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
08:03:00 <matze16> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
08:03:00 <matze16> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
08:03:04 <matze16> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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08:20:20 <wob_jonas> oh great, our channel is hit by those spambots freenode warned about
08:20:29 <wob_jonas> https://freenode.net/news/spambot-attack
08:21:53 <wob_jonas> This is why I should make a custom IRC client, which facilitates retroactively hiding those spam messages from the history
08:23:32 <wob_jonas> They're probably using a nice botnet of computers they easily infected with malware
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08:49:21 <Turska-13> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
08:49:25 <Turska-13> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
08:49:28 <Turska-13> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
08:49:31 <Turska-13> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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09:19:05 <VM_21> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
09:19:09 <VM_21> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
09:19:12 <VM_21> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
09:19:15 <VM_21> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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09:51:57 <siso_> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
09:52:00 <siso_> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
09:52:04 <siso_> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
09:52:07 <siso_> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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10:42:00 <NvpkD1y7Ez> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
10:42:03 <NvpkD1y7Ez> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
10:42:08 <NvpkD1y7Ez> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
10:42:10 <NvpkD1y7Ez> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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10:51:29 <kg13> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
10:51:33 <kg13> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
10:51:36 <kg13> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
10:51:39 <kg13> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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11:07:06 <rud0lf16> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
11:07:10 <rud0lf16> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
11:07:13 <rud0lf16> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
11:07:16 <rud0lf16> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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11:11:57 <kl420025> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
11:12:01 <kl420025> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
11:12:05 <kl420025> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
11:12:08 <kl420025> A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
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11:14:41 <ByronJohnson4> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
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11:18:52 <lino> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
11:18:52 <lino> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
11:18:52 <lino> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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11:26:31 <fizzie> Ooh, we're big enough to get spam.
11:27:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +r.
11:28:14 <fizzie> Let's maybe do that for now?
11:30:58 <fizzie> If you know +s would be enough to stop them from coming, LMK.
11:32:51 <int-e> yeah, +r or +q $~a are the recommended ways, I think (the latter lets people join but not speak)
11:33:16 <int-e> (people without nameserv registration that is)
11:34:03 <int-e> fizzie: do you think we should have *!*@freenode/staff/* on the access list, maybe?
11:34:25 <ChanServ> fizzie quieted $~a
11:34:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q $~a.
11:34:36 <fizzie> I guess the quiet is nicer.
11:34:54 <int-e> fizzie: don't forget the -r or it will make no difference
11:35:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
11:35:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -r.
11:35:27 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
11:35:36 <int-e> cheers
11:36:12 <fizzie> I set it via mlock originally, but I guess just removing the mlock doesn't actually make ChanServ do anything, and I wasn't sure we want -r enforced like that.
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11:38:14 <fizzie> Now we'll assume every new person joining is a spammer, though. :/
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11:39:18 <int-e> yeah there's no good solution
11:39:54 <int-e> (but at least that traffic shouldn't highlight the channel)
11:42:41 <fizzie> Added *!*@freenode/staff/* to the access list as well, with the flags +voAti per some random recommendation.
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12:10:58 <FireFly> I think just +o would enough (or I guess +vo would be more common maybe)
12:11:25 <FireFly> I forget what the other ones do offhand :D
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12:15:27 <int-e> FireFly: +i may be helpful to get in (if some rogue op makes the channel invite only or password protected)... +t is probably useless; +A makes no difference for a channel with publicly visible access list. but +o should typically be enough.
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12:19:47 <FireFly> *nod*
12:22:07 <wob_jonas> I wish IRC added a good way to uniquely identify client connections to other client connections even while you don't see them on a channel. This could be done as an opt-in extension, of which the server already supports a few.
12:22:51 <wob_jonas> Then the freenode staff and their bots could mark connections as spam after the fact even if they quit first, or other moderators you trust could do that too, and you could have your IRC client hide their messages even after they're alredy received.
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12:23:20 <wob_jonas> If I make an irc client, I'll at least hide the messages from users who were too slow and I see the K-line for spam message.
12:23:50 <wob_jonas> The quit messages are formatted specially by the server so the K-line messages or similar can't be faked by normal users.
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13:35:29 <esowiki> [[User:Kamish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57122&oldid=54890 * Kamish * (+0)
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13:40:11 <arseniiv> neat quote: “If you make a comment here, it had better be either true and necessary, true and kind, or kind and necessary.”
13:43:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I recognize that. That's from the policy http://slatestarcodex.com/comments/
13:48:18 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57123&oldid=56962 * Kamish * (+557)
13:49:14 <shachaf> Isn't necessary sufficient?
13:50:25 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57124&oldid=57123 * Kamish * (+28)
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13:51:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, see the details in that policy I linked
13:52:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's a private forum where posting is a privilage, not a right you own, so you can never claim that it's necessary for you to participate. they can just ban you if you don't keep the rules.
13:53:11 <shachaf> "Necessary in that it’s on topic, and not only contributes something to the discussion but contributes more to the discussion than it’s likely to take away through starting a fight."
13:53:12 <wob_jonas> Privately owned and moderated forum that is, not private for participation or reading.
13:53:25 <shachaf> That sounds like it has nothing to do with necessity?
13:53:38 <shachaf> `? necessity
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14:27:55 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: thank you
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14:53:06 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57125&oldid=57095 * BMO * (+2388)
14:54:25 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57126&oldid=57125 * BMO * (+33)
14:55:19 <esowiki> [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57127&oldid=57126 * BMO * (+3)
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16:31:08 <quintopia> fizzie: +s is enough. it works for other channels.
16:35:38 <quintopia> oh never mind
16:35:54 <quintopia> they've started caching the channel list nowl
16:36:06 <quintopia> you would have to already be +s
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18:01:15 <esowiki> [[FlogScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57128&oldid=44535 * BradensEsolangs * (+26)
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18:54:18 <izabera> figalli won the fields medal!
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18:59:40 <esowiki> [[VogLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57129 * BradensEsolangs * (+574) Created page with "VogLang is an esolang conceived by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden/Ikura]]. The programs are Vogon poems, and the nonsense words are changed via a set of rules into a few instru..."
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21:54:21 <wob_jonas> Youtube now has video ads, overlay picture ads, and these little picture ads that show up in the bottom right outside the video area, and the latter are getting terrible,
21:54:49 <wob_jonas> perhaps because everyone who actually has sense uses one of the first two possibilities, and because there's a smaller choice for Hungary.
21:55:20 <wob_jonas> They've even ran an ad for what looked very much like a take your money scam, with no obvious way to report ads.
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22:03:38 <fizzie`> wob_jonas: You might try the left sidebar "Send feedback" option and then highlighting the ad in the attached screenshot. I've no idea where that feedback goes, though. It would be better if there was a more direct reporting link. It's a shame there's not a reporting option in the small "Why this ad?" infobox.
22:04:08 <wob_jonas> fizzie`: there used to be one, I think
22:04:11 <wob_jonas> or no
22:04:12 <wob_jonas> I mean
22:04:27 <wob_jonas> there used to be two little buttons on that ad
22:04:34 <wob_jonas> and I think the other one might have led to a reporting interface
22:04:38 <wob_jonas> but now there's only one button
22:04:46 <fizzie`> Right. I don't remember seeing it in YouTube, but I'm sure I've seen it in some other surface.
22:04:49 <wob_jonas> there might still be a hidden option, but I think that ad no longer runs
22:04:49 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie.
22:06:17 <fizzie> There's still two buttons (the AdChoices triangle-i and an X that has a "Report this ad" button) on a regular Google ad banner on a random third-party site.
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22:18:45 <shachaf> `smlist 475
22:19:03 <shachaf> Ah, right.
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23:27:37 <Sgeo> Factor 0.98 released
23:27:52 <Sgeo> I haven't thought about Factor in a long time
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23:48:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[VogLang]]": Copyright violation: content was: "VogLang is an esolang conceived by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden/Ikura]]. The programs are Vogon poems, and th...", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/BradensEsolangs|BradensEsolangs]]" ([[User talk:BradensEsolangs|talk]])
23:50:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:BradensEsolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57130 * Ais523 * (+545) /* VogLang */ new section
2018-08-02
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02:36:22 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57131&oldid=57124 * Oerjan * (-585) That's just evil formatting. Also order.
02:36:32 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57132&oldid=57131 * Oerjan * (+583) /* Radixal!!!! */ Fix (assuming the code itself works)
02:38:08 <oerjan> re latest oots, i'm worried about the vampire that got away.
02:40:17 <oerjan> assuming she knows what to do
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02:40:58 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
02:40:59 <lambdabot> ENVA 020220Z 13007KT CAVOK 12/10 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 16008KT
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03:47:20 <quintopia> helloerjan. how goes it
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04:39:53 <oerjan> hellopia. temperatures are starting to sink down to normal
04:42:39 <oerjan> however, there must be heat stored in the building because the apartment goes up to uncomfortable again once i close the door.
04:43:36 <oerjan> or something.
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11:24:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57133&oldid=52865 * Wastl * (+775) /* DEF instruction parameter order */ new section
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11:42:40 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57134&oldid=57112 * Wastl * (+971) added interpreter link and proof of Turing-completeness
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12:09:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VOID * New user account
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12:24:01 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dngnogu * New user account
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12:43:08 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57135&oldid=57087 * Dngnogu * (+271) /* Introductions */
12:44:06 <esowiki> [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57136&oldid=49990 * Dngnogu * (+1) /* Implemented */
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13:43:18 <wob_jonas> the Stylish plugin for Mozilla is great because it lets me make ugly sites more readable on a somewhat permanent basis, but its new built-in warnings are very annoying.
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13:44:22 <wob_jonas> it warns about selectors I use being apparently overspecified. but I'm deliberately use such selectors because I'm overriding the crazy overly specific selectors and overly redundant rules of the site's CSS.
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13:55:43 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57137 * A * (+2059) Created page with "==Syntax== ===Conditions=== The if-else directives if, ifdef, ifndef, else, elif and end can be used for conditional compilation. if VERBOSE >= 2 print("trace message");..."
13:56:09 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57138&oldid=57137 * A * (+5) /* Syntax */
13:56:28 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57139&oldid=57138 * A * (+2) /* Identifiers */
13:56:39 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57140&oldid=57139 * A * (-42) /* Identifiers */
13:56:50 <arseniiv> :(
13:59:00 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57141&oldid=57140 * A * (-294)
13:59:27 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57142&oldid=57141 * A * (-15)
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20:41:08 <tswett> Ahoy.
20:41:15 <tswett> Allow me to introduce...
20:41:19 <tswett> Oversized digit notation!
20:41:26 <imode> I'm all ears.
20:41:34 <tswett> A number within brackets indicates a single digit whose value is that number.
20:42:05 <tswett> So, for example, 1[12]6 is a three-digit number where the digit in the 100s place is 1, the digit in the 10s place is 12, and the digit in the 1s place is 6.
20:43:07 <tswett> You can use this notation to represent intermediate results in arithmetic before carrying has been performed.
20:43:09 <tswett> Like...
20:43:15 <tswett> 14 * 14 = 18[16] = 196
20:43:30 <tswett> 15 * 15 = 1[10][25] = 225
20:43:52 <arseniiv> partially useful! :)
20:45:02 <imode> huh, now that is interesting.
20:45:17 <arseniiv> (but why calling it oversized, is it more like overflown?)
20:45:28 <arseniiv> isn’t*
20:45:41 <tswett> *shrug*
20:46:15 <tswett> You can nest it to make weird stuff like 1[1[10]].
20:46:30 <arseniiv> oh!
20:47:28 <tswett> Sometimes oversized digit notation corresponds to non-standard English words...
20:47:38 <tswett> 19 = nineteen, 1[10] = tenteen, 1[11] = eleventeen
20:47:51 <tswett> 1[1[10]] = tenteenteen, of course.
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20:51:32 <myname> tswett: that's basically what an abacus does
20:53:22 <myname> depending on the version you have, only up to 14, though
20:54:28 <arseniiv> (btw there’s a notation my friend had suggested a while ago, "" = 1, "[]" = nthprime("") = 2, "[[]]" = nthprime("[]") = 3, "[][]" = "[]" × "[]" = 4, "[[[]]]" = 5, "[][[]]" = 6 etc.)
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20:56:36 <tswett> arseniiv: hmmm, I have an idea similar to that one.
20:56:47 <tswett> Same thing, except that it's the successor function instead of nthprime.
20:56:58 <tswett> Concatenation is multiplication and parentheses indicate adding 1.
20:57:14 <myname> which is like oe of the basic definitions of natural numbers based on sets
20:57:17 <tswett> So () is 2, (()) is 3, ()() is 4, (()()) is 5.
21:02:17 <arseniiv> there are many representations for the same number, though: ()() = ((())). In the previous thing, there are also many representations, but the only one modulo swapping balanced bracked groups. It’s why I didn’t forget :D
21:02:43 <tswett> Yup.
21:03:34 <tswett> ()()()() = ()()((())) = ()((((((())))))) = ((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))
21:04:04 <arseniiv> I love balanced bracket strings
21:04:43 <imode> there's something beautiful about them.
21:14:40 <quintopia> ((())(
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21:17:10 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57143&oldid=57142 * A * (+68)
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21:35:09 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57144&oldid=57143 * A * (-727)
21:36:35 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57145&oldid=57144 * A * (-69)
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21:37:36 <arseniiv> quintopia: uh my eyes!
21:37:43 <arseniiv> :D
21:46:59 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57146&oldid=57145 * A * (+317)
21:47:01 <int-e> `? limerick
21:47:21 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57147&oldid=57146 * A * (+3)
21:55:12 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57148&oldid=57147 * A * (+522)
22:01:56 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57149&oldid=57148 * A * (+160)
22:03:01 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57150&oldid=57149 * A * (+37) /* Computational Class */
22:06:21 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57151&oldid=56998 * A * (+33)
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22:24:00 <esowiki> [[Recursoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57152 * A * (+1173) Created page with "'''Recursoin''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. Variables are defined like: var = bar {| |- | valign="top" | <code>+<br>-</code> | valign="top" | do ma..."
22:26:00 <esowiki> [[Recursoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57153&oldid=57152 * A * (-176)
22:34:15 <esowiki> [[Recursoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57154&oldid=57153 * A * (+339)
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22:40:24 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57155&oldid=57012 * A * (+0) Your C example has a flaw:you should use "and".
22:43:38 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57156&oldid=57155 * A * (-32) :( I found another: it is unnecessary to print"number=".
22:47:08 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57157&oldid=57156 * A * (-18) Hmm...Just directly print "Fizz", "Buzz", or "FizzBuzz". No need to output the number.
22:53:31 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57158&oldid=57157 * A * (+22) Some small improvements:I evaluated the expression"(i%3)&&(i%5)" into "(i%15)", making it more readable.
22:57:09 <fizzie> I'm sure on some channel we used to have a bot that made sure there's always as many (s as there are of )s.
22:57:12 <fizzie> It's important, a channel might tip over if the balance isn't maintained.
22:58:47 <shachaf> What happens if you write ) before (?
22:59:03 <shachaf> Also what happened to HackEso?
22:59:28 <boily> )))))))))))))))))))))
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23:46:10 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57159&oldid=56984 * A * (+27)
23:47:23 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57160&oldid=57075 * A * (+19) I don't know how to place chinese here.
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23:53:02 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57161&oldid=57151 * A * (+261)
23:54:43 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57162&oldid=57161 * A * (+19)
23:55:21 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57163&oldid=57162 * A * (+0) Mistake
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2018-08-03
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00:11:14 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57164&oldid=56736 * A * (-8) My description is too complicated.
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00:42:23 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57165&oldid=57164 * A * (+196) Include more understandable Brainfuck implementation
00:48:29 <Sgeo> I should totally try to design my own Tcl OO system
00:48:49 <shachaf> Why?
00:49:12 <Sgeo> Someone on Twitter reminded me Tcl existed, and I have it stuck in my head now
00:49:30 <Sgeo> The model of objects where they're just strings that know what to do via {*} fascinates me
00:49:48 <Sgeo> e.g. {*}$someObject somemethod
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00:50:05 <Sgeo> $someObject could just be a lambda that switches on the somemethod argument
00:50:26 <shachaf> Why not make an OO system for Ada?
00:50:39 <Sgeo> No need to worry about garbage collection in this model, unlike other models where each object is a command, and Tcl can't just clean up commands
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00:50:53 <shachaf> Also I'm thinking lambdas are a little bit scow for control flow.
00:51:00 <shachaf> In most languages, at least.
00:51:10 <shachaf> This is mostly unrelated to what you're saying.
00:51:37 * oerjan sics GL Steele on shachaf
00:51:38 <shachaf> Ruby has a special case to make things like this work: def f(a); a.each {|x| return true if x == 5 }; return false; end
00:52:13 <shachaf> Where that's a lambda that can return from the scope it was created in. If you return a lambda like that, it fails at runtime.
00:52:24 <shachaf> (You could also make it use continuations, but...)
00:52:37 <Sgeo> Tcl control flow is string and eval based.
00:53:21 <shachaf> Is there anything that uses lambdas for control flow for this sort of thing? How does it work?
00:54:53 <imode> I should learn Tcl. seems the interpreters for it are pretty complicated though.
00:56:18 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57166&oldid=57165 * A * (-4) /* Examples */
00:56:43 <Sgeo> I suggest learning it properly via tutorials or other documentation, rather than via osmosis of real life examples. It's the sort of language where things one might not expect to make a difference can
00:57:17 <imode> how would it compare with something like forth, which is similarly untyped.
00:57:35 <imode> mainly interested in the implementation of the language. can I write a Tcl in a weekend?
00:58:10 <Sgeo> I'm not an implement a language person. I think it would be simple to implement the syntax rules, at least.
01:00:44 <imode> iamcalledbob and A should be banned from the wiki, they've created a lot of junk articles. cmv.
01:05:55 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57167&oldid=57166 * A * (+122) /* Examples */
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01:08:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57168&oldid=57160 * Oerjan * (+0) ginorst + cdeeginnors
01:08:36 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57169&oldid=57167 * A * (-122)
01:08:47 <oerjan> hm esowiki isn't ... oh
01:09:25 <oerjan> HackEso isn't responding, though.
01:09:34 <imode> like there's literally a language called "String rewriting paradigm".
01:09:48 <imode> that qualifies as a stub. someone's trolling.
01:09:54 <oerjan> oh wait that's caught by my pribate +R
01:09:59 <oerjan> stupid stuff
01:10:03 <oerjan> `echo hi
01:10:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:10:22 <shachaf> It seems that the spam has stopped for now.
01:10:34 <shachaf> At least for a few hours.
01:10:43 <imode> mmm.
01:11:02 -!- sleepnap has left.
01:11:25 <esowiki> [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57170&oldid=57169 * A * (-5) /* Examples */
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01:13:45 <oerjan> `echo hi are you there
01:13:46 <HackEso> hi are you there
01:13:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:14:23 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, approximately that is what a yard is. More precisely, it is three feet.
01:14:26 <oerjan> > "is lambdabot registered?"
01:14:27 <lambdabot> "is lambdabot registered?"
01:14:29 <oerjan> yep
01:14:31 <shachaf> Since lambdas don't seem work very well for control constructs without hacks or continuations, how should user-defined control constructs work?
01:14:46 <oerjan> fizzie: it might be a good idea to register them, just in case.
01:15:06 <shachaf> One answer is to scrap early return etc. and make people use Either or something if they want it. Which is almost back to using (delimited) continuations.
01:15:20 <shachaf> Another answer is lisp-style macros, I guess.
01:15:22 <zzo38> To check if someone is registered with NickServ you can use the NS INFO command.
01:15:32 <shachaf> Are there more standard answers?
01:15:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i think i'm not going to open the floodgates without some information that there's a more network-wide solution.
01:15:51 <shachaf> OK.
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01:16:17 <imode> has this channel been hit by the spambots as well?
01:16:21 <imode> haven't been around.
01:16:29 <zzo38> (The cloak I suppose also reveals being registered with NickServ, although it is possible to be registered and not cloaked.)
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01:20:27 <oerjan> imode: yep
01:20:42 <oerjan> hm fungot isn't even here to test
01:21:05 <oerjan> although i guess it would also be on zem.fi
01:22:38 <oerjan> imode: so it's now set +q $~a which also gives some of the bots problems
01:23:59 <oerjan> and also we all seem to have been set +R which means the bots cannot reach us in private either
01:24:23 <imode> that's good, I suppose.
01:24:33 <imode> you have to wonder what the dude's motives are...
01:24:42 <imode> psychotic, he is.
01:24:47 <zzo38> You can unset the +R mode on yourself if you want to receive the message, or use ACCEPT command
01:24:51 <oerjan> oh i wasn't thinking about the spam bots when i said "bots", but our trusty channel ones
01:25:09 <imode> ah.
01:25:13 <imode> not so good then. :P
01:26:10 <oerjan> so i added an exception for fizzie's domain, although he might want to register them too (i guess that adds extra hassle when logging in)
01:26:35 <Sgeo> https://wiki.tcl.tk/10225 is the sort of thing that scares me about Tcl
01:31:32 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57171&oldid=56365 * A * (+122) /* swap x, y */
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01:37:40 <oerjan> that Preprocessor proof is so obviously wrong, sigh
01:38:11 <oerjan> (he also misunderstood my proof that he's trying to base it on, although i guess the comment about 8 fixes that.)
01:41:20 <oerjan> ok maybe that's sane if e can actually mutate variables, but then it's not much of a CPP derivative...
01:43:09 -!- tromp has joined.
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01:44:40 <oerjan> the way in which mediawiki's diffs can completely fail to match identical parts because of slight spacing differences is really annoying.
01:44:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57172&oldid=57171 * A * (+28) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
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01:44:57 <oerjan> (looking at ObCode)
01:45:25 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57173&oldid=57172 * A * (+41) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
01:46:12 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57174&oldid=57134 * Oerjan * (-1) rm newline that breaks the stupid diff
01:46:54 <oerjan> ah better
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01:50:01 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57175&oldid=57173 * A * (+1) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
01:50:45 <esowiki> [[ObCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57176&oldid=57174 * Oerjan * (+12) wikify sections
01:51:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57177&oldid=57175 * A * (+65) /* x = not x (bitwise) */
01:52:12 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57178&oldid=57177 * A * (+5) /* Wrapping */
01:52:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57179&oldid=57178 * A * (-3) /* swap x, y */
01:53:28 <shachaf> imo reban zem.fi hth
01:55:03 <oerjan> well in obvious hindsight...
01:57:21 <oerjan> hm why are there esowiki announcements in the logs...
01:57:32 <oerjan> perhaps it's actually supposed to be registered.
01:57:47 <oerjan> or maybe it doesn't get quieted unless it rejoins...
02:00:36 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57180&oldid=57179 * A * (+90) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */
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02:08:45 <oerjan> hm this is weird. there's a message from esowiki in the logs from several minutes after i joined that i haven't seen.
02:09:09 <oerjan> oh wait
02:09:16 <oerjan> it's also the logging bot isn't it?
02:09:28 <shachaf> oh man
02:09:29 <oerjan> so it's been faking it :P
02:09:30 <shachaf> pranked
02:11:18 <oerjan> indeed, the logs have my own edit that got me wondering what was up
02:11:34 <oerjan> CASE CLOSED
02:11:48 <mahaa> A good affair, Bravo!
02:12:06 * oerjan bows
02:15:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57181&oldid=57180 * A * (+30) /* x = x - y */
02:16:49 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57182&oldid=57181 * A * (-30) /* Non-wrapping */
02:17:17 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57183&oldid=57182 * A * (+29) /* Wrapping */
02:17:44 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57184&oldid=57183 * A * (-19) /* x = x + y */
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02:59:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57185&oldid=57184 * A * (+77) /* Input a decimal number */
03:10:03 <shachaf> Go and C++17 support initializers for if, as in "if (int x = f(); x > 0) { ... }". Is there any language that supports initializers for while, as in "while (int c = getchar(); c != EOF) { ... }"?
03:11:17 <izabera> surely you can do that with c macros
03:12:15 <shachaf> Well, yes.
03:12:40 <shachaf> I mean, y'know, sort of. With all the usual caveats about C macros.
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03:13:48 <pikhq> I don't know. I mean, you can get the same effect with for loops, but...
03:14:03 <shachaf> Can you, without writing "getchar()" twice?
03:14:26 <pikhq> Well, no.
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03:23:41 <Sgeo> proc lambda {arguments body args} {
03:23:41 <Sgeo> return [list ::apply [list $arguments $body] {*}$args]
03:23:41 <Sgeo> }
03:23:54 <Sgeo> https://github.com/tcltk/tcllib/blob/master/modules/lambda/lambda.tcl
03:28:15 <pikhq> Oh, right, I forgot about Tcl.
03:28:29 <pikhq> Tcl is, uh, decidedly odd.
03:29:19 <pikhq> Though I can't remember, doesn't while in Tcl execute the condition in the calling stack frame?
03:29:51 <pikhq> i.e. basically like it did an uplevel expr $cond
03:30:55 <Sgeo> uplevel 1 I think
03:31:23 <Sgeo> I think I remember you talking about liking Tcl? I liked it for a while until I found myself incapable of writing programs that don't memory leak.
03:31:32 <Sgeo> Mutable locations don't get garbage collected.
03:31:52 <Sgeo> (Since every mutable thing has to have a name)
03:31:56 <pikhq> Just because I like Tcl doesn't mean I can't admit it's decidedly odd.
03:32:03 <pikhq> In fact, its oddness is part of why I like it. :)
03:33:48 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57186&oldid=57185 * A * (+108) /* Summing 1~n */
03:53:43 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57187&oldid=57158 * A * (+161) Add Python implementation
03:57:40 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57188&oldid=57187 * A * (+1) Shorten My Code
04:00:52 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57189&oldid=57188 * A * (-2) /* Examples */
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06:12:31 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57190&oldid=57150 * A * (-8) Well, since there is no changing, it is turing-complete.
06:15:37 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57191&oldid=57190 * A * (+28) Only 2 commands, it is a Turing-tarpit.
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06:27:44 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57192&oldid=57191 * A * (-1) Uh, operation is wrong
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06:28:35 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57193&oldid=57192 * A * (+45)
06:31:42 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57194&oldid=57193 * A * (-7)
06:33:23 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57195&oldid=57194 * A * (-6)
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06:38:03 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57196&oldid=57195 * A * (+7)
06:40:51 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57197&oldid=57196 * A * (-94)
06:49:23 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57198&oldid=57197 * A * (-26)
06:58:23 <esowiki> [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57199&oldid=57189 * Zzo38 * (+155) TeX
07:00:06 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57200 * A * (+1964) Copy my text first...
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07:32:36 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57201&oldid=57200 * A * (-1964) Blanked the page
07:33:23 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57202&oldid=57198 * A * (-144) Examples are useless
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07:37:50 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57203&oldid=57202 * A * (+22) Else can be represented by if
07:46:45 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57204&oldid=57201 * A * (+1842)
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07:54:14 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57205&oldid=57204 * A * (-125)
07:54:33 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57206&oldid=57205 * A * (+9)
07:56:59 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57207&oldid=57206 * A * (-2)
07:57:27 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57208&oldid=57163 * A * (+26)
07:59:16 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57209&oldid=57207 * A * (+9) /* Syntax */
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08:02:57 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57210&oldid=57209 * A * (-19)
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08:28:57 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57211&oldid=57210 * A * (+75)
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08:29:30 <fizzie> @tell oerjan Good point, I didn't even consider them bots.
08:29:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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08:42:04 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57212&oldid=57211 * A * (+1107)
08:46:01 <esowiki> [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57213&oldid=57212 * A * (-600)
08:46:47 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57214&oldid=57203 * A * (-85)
08:48:04 <esowiki> [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57215&oldid=57214 * A * (+0)
08:48:28 <int-e> Can I say that I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to esolangs?
09:10:03 <Taneb> int-e: you can
09:26:52 <fizzie> Huh, what's happened to fungot?
09:26:59 <fizzie> Oh, right, I restarted the machine.
09:29:06 <fizzie> I have a bouncer in front it now, so when it joins, it's not going to actually be responsive yet. Just thought I'd warn you.
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09:30:41 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling all normal again?
09:30:42 <fungot> fizzie: and we can multiply quantum states with numbers.)
09:30:55 <fizzie> Subsystems nominal, I guess.
09:31:23 <shachaf> fungot: what kinds of numbers twh
09:31:24 <fungot> shachaf: like international paper sizes?' thread. one of his friends to build an entire scheme program and a scheme list is kind of weird. even though that " should" visit espoo today, since i don't notice any fault with the gui
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10:00:33 <fizzie> Later it turns out the secret to solving noise issues in quantum computing was multiplying quantum states with international paper sizes.
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10:07:46 <Taneb> If you could get an A3-sized qubit I think a lot of things would work differently
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10:15:29 <Phantom_Hoover> hey they finally found an elementary knightship in the game of life
10:18:05 <Taneb> I know what some of those words mean! That sounds neat
10:18:22 <Taneb> (what's a knightship? what does it mean for one to be elementary?)
10:20:13 <Phantom_Hoover> knightship = travels along a vector other than (1,0) and (1,1) (modulo rotation/reflection ofc.)
10:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart
10:21:50 <Phantom_Hoover> it's predictably very weird looking http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Sir_Robin
10:22:24 <esowiki> [[Obcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57216 * Wastl * (+20) make redirect to ObCode
10:28:43 <esowiki> [[Functoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57217 * A * (+695) Created page with "It is inspired by [[Post-preprocessor]]. ==Syntax(= command)== f(x)=1/x`function` f(a)=`Put your code here`,f() (a!=0) `nothing here` (a==0)`if statement` a=0`variabl..."
10:29:27 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57218&oldid=57208 * A * (+14)
10:33:25 <Taneb> That *is* neat
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12:20:08 <int-e> `paste wisdom/limerick
12:20:09 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom/limerick
12:21:07 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is alphanumer1c.
12:21:09 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is alphanumer1c.
12:24:45 <int-e> `' ꙮ
12:24:46 <HackEso> 1133) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
12:24:56 <int-e> So that's where it is.
12:25:17 <int-e> `wc -l quotes
12:25:17 <HackEso> wc: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'wc --help' for more information.
12:25:21 <int-e> `` wc -l quotes
12:25:22 <HackEso> 1325 quotes
12:25:34 <int-e> `` tail -2 quotes
12:25:35 <HackEso> ​<zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ <Aearnus> i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft
12:37:05 <fizzie> int-e: https://zem.fi/tmp/quotes.png
12:38:03 <fizzie> Source: hg log -T "{rev} {node|short}\n" quotes | tac | while read rev hash; do printf "%s\t%s\n" $rev $(hg cat -r $rev quotes | wc -l); done | tee ~/tmp/quotes.csv
12:39:14 <fizzie> A time axis might be nice as well.
12:41:44 <fizzie> ...huh, I didn't actually use the commit hash, and didn't notice because -r accepted the revision number as well.
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12:50:37 <fizzie> By date: https://zem.fi/tmp/quotes2.png
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13:03:43 <int-e> Well I still think that the limit should be 1336. :P
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16:21:57 <shachaf> `olist 1132
16:21:58 <HackEso> olist 1132: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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16:49:56 <Sgeo> *slaps roof of HackEgo* this bad boy can fit so much olist in it
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16:55:06 <shachaf> `? olist
16:55:08 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
16:55:21 <shachaf> Does HackEgo have a roof?
17:07:56 <int-e> I sure hope so; computers get even more irritable in the rain than most people.
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20:48:29 <zzo38> I made this computer game recently: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP
20:52:13 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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21:01:05 <int-e> hmm it's not entirely terrible :P
21:07:32 <int-e> What's that real number though? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mp.png
21:09:12 <zzo38> The ratio of score to rows.
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21:11:49 <int-e> ah
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21:31:43 <shachaf> zzo38: I can't figure out how to make dosbox work well with my high-DPI screen.
21:31:47 <shachaf> So the font is too small.
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21:50:24 <int-e> shachaf: I have something like this in my .dosbox/dosbox-0.74.conf: http://paste.debian.net/1036624/ (those are the settings that I modified)
21:52:46 <shachaf> Oh, I tried similar settings before but not quite those ones.
21:53:02 <int-e> (this may still be rather small for you but you can adjust the window size accordingly; keeping it 4:3 and multiples of 640x480 are probably a good idea)
21:53:57 <shachaf> It's a sufficient size.
21:54:54 <shachaf> Is there a language similar to C or C++ that has every function taking one argument, which might be a struct/tuple containing multiple values?
21:57:06 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
21:59:03 <shachaf> I'm wondering how to make it work with various things, like named arguments and varargs (and default arguments?).
21:59:44 <shachaf> Of course you can have a calling convention that turns this into the regular C ABI.
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2018-08-04
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00:52:07 <oerjan> @messages-told
00:52:07 <lambdabot> fizzie said 16h 22m 37s ago: Good point, I didn't even consider them bots.
00:53:56 <oerjan> `doag quotes
00:53:57 <HackEso> 11585:2018-07-21 <oerjän> addquote <Aearnus> i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580:2018-07-01 <alercäh> addquote <zzo38> Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ 11551:2018-05-08 <oerjän> addquote <shachaf> Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old <Taneb> shachaf, not at all <Taneb> I would never suggest that i
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01:17:48 <oerjan> the last panel of the last oots isn't entirely reassuring.
01:32:14 <oerjan> oh thank god, there was a preference setting to hide the left navigation bar on PPCG again
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05:03:09 <zzo38> If you want to make a total of floating numbers without losing precision must you put them in order, or accumulate them by log2 or whatever? (You might also have to consider the positive and negative numbers separately?)
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09:01:10 <int-e> `learn Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi!
09:01:12 <HackEso> Learned 'hodl': Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi!
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11:48:04 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: wow. that is something. (re Sir Robin in game of life)
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12:07:20 <esowiki> [[RANDo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57219&oldid=54869 * Kamish * (+54)
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13:23:12 <esowiki> [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57220&oldid=53097 * B jonas * (+147) clarify that this is not an esoteric language
13:23:41 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57221&oldid=30898 * B jonas * (+410) credit Conway with Turing-completeness; add like ten categories; link LifeWiki
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13:38:03 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57222&oldid=57221 * B jonas * (+187) mention still active research
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13:47:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:RAM0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57223 * B jonas * (+612) a mistaken statement
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14:05:40 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57224&oldid=57222 * B jonas * (+1346) explicit definition; program size
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14:18:27 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57225&oldid=57224 * B jonas * (-4) consistent spelling of neighbor and behavior
14:21:12 <esowiki> [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57226 * B jonas * (+1478) Created page with "'''Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton''' is a [[Cellular automaton]] published in 1966. The state of the automaton is a square grid filling the whole plane, in which..."
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14:28:07 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57227&oldid=45557 * B jonas * (+482) history
14:29:18 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57228&oldid=57168 * B jonas * (+48)
14:34:51 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57229&oldid=57227 * B jonas * (+454) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ clarify that every CA is an esolang
14:37:05 <esowiki> [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57230&oldid=57229 * B jonas * (+2) /* Relation to esoteric programming */
14:39:47 <esowiki> [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57231&oldid=49933 * B jonas * (+406) add cellular automata
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14:50:09 <wob_jonas> I was wondering what the oldest esolang with still active research is. Game of Life is definitely old and has a large active research community, and dc might qualify and might just predate it. But then I realized that lambda calculus, or lambda calculus with some specific evaluation order, probably trumps anything else.
14:51:52 <wob_jonas> Them and Turing-machines. They were both first published in 1936.
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15:31:31 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57232&oldid=57091 * Plokmijnuhby * (+327)
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15:42:26 <esowiki> [[Rosa Parks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57233&oldid=57232 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1)
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16:13:27 <zzo38> 2HI have implemented a SQLite extension to download files from the internet by using libcurl, but it involves a rather klugy way to detect if sqlite3_interrupt() has been called.
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17:47:55 <zzo38> I think someone ask about SQLite extension to use Swiss Ephemeris (to see the example code), and I have posted it now (although some features are not currently implemented, including sunrise/sunset times, and some other stuff)
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19:12:47 <wob_jonas> You've all heard the tale of Scheherazade, in which an evil sultan vows that every evening he would marry a beautiful maiden and every morning he would get that maiden executed?
19:13:28 <wob_jonas> Apparently in at least some variants, the sultan actually vowed that every evening he'd marry the *most* beautiful maiden of his empire.
19:14:37 <wob_jonas> But in reality, wouldn't that cause one of those unending arms races, when eventually every remaining maiden tries to deliberately make themselves more and more ugly, to avoid this fate?
19:17:10 <wob_jonas> I mean, maybe it would, and the sultan was stupid to make such a vow no matter what and the simplest solution would have been to get him assasinated as soon as possible after people find that he is willing to follow through his vow, but still, I haven't heard of that arms race part in any retelling of the story.
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19:55:25 <zzo38> What if his opinion who is most beautiful may differ somewhat from one of those maiden? Or if it is about equal and is difficult to know?
19:55:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know.
19:56:01 <wob_jonas> I wasn't there.
19:56:48 <int-e> they should just ask the mirror from Snow White.
19:57:03 <Taneb> wob_jonas, what if it was an environment with commonplace arranged marriages and the status gained from having a daughter marry the sultan is worth the high chance of her execution
19:57:25 <wob_jonas> I imagine that if beauty is subjective and its measure used by the oath is not easy to predict, that would just speed up the arms race because every maiden will want to make herself so obviously ugly that by no matter what measure she isn't among the top ten thousand most beautiful ones.
19:57:31 <int-e> Taneb: worth to whome though...
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19:57:39 <int-e> *whom
19:57:51 <Taneb> int-e, the people arranging the marriage (probably the poor girl's father)
19:58:28 <wob_jonas> Right, but the maidens themselves would probably find a way to become ugly without the permission of their fater. The surviving girls at least, soon.
19:58:38 <int-e> Taneb: So unfair. Almost like real life.
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20:49:13 <ais523> @messages?
20:49:13 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
20:51:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:RAM0
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20:52:00 <ais523> oh, yes, I was kind-of assuming you couldn't put an oracle there
20:52:20 <ais523> (also there's not much point linking me to talk pages of my own languages, I'm likely to notice anything put there anyway)
20:52:35 <wob_jonas> yes, that's why I put it there
20:52:50 <wob_jonas> but since you asked lambdabot for @messages, I corrected him when he said no messages today
20:52:56 <ais523> what I meant was that the language is still TC if it's initialised randomly
20:53:21 <esowiki> [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57234&oldid=54505 * Ais523 * (+16) /* Data storage */ clarify ambiguous sentence
20:53:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57235&oldid=57223 * Ais523 * (+247) clarified
20:53:55 <wob_jonas> what? then it has a randomness source... hmm wait, that doesn't increase the power of R. right.
20:54:19 <wob_jonas> although it's not obvious what "initialize randomly" means in a machine with bigints in each cell
20:54:43 <int-e> wob_jonas: it's not a source of randomness if you can make no assumptions about the memory... it might be initialized.
20:55:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: oh wait. sorry, what ais523 wrote here and on the page are different things
20:55:42 <ais523> yes, I wrote it a bit more clearly on the page
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20:56:15 <int-e> yeah, the page looks fine to me
20:57:59 <wob_jonas> ok, it is fixed
20:59:37 <ais523> @tell tswett re your oversized digit notation, have you seen hyperbinary? it's basically binary except you're allowed to use 2 as a digit as well, and is mostly relevant as a method of defining the stern-brocot sequence
20:59:37 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:02:38 <ais523> @tell Phantom_Hoover I think "elementary" in cellular automata means that it isn't a collection of smaller components; there were already known Game of Life knightships that didn't rely on universal constructors, e.g. the half-baked knightship, which relied on multiple knightship-ish components that sent beams of generalised-gliders out to stabilise each other
21:02:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:04:21 <wob_jonas> That exclamation by Phantom_Hoover made me make some improvements to the Game of Life article on our wiki, although of course it still doesn't contain much of the vast knowledge mathematicians now have of Game of Life.
21:04:49 <wob_jonas> Or more like, inspired me to make some improvements, seeing that such a popular esolang has such a bad article.
21:05:06 <ais523> there's an entire wiki for the game of life
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21:05:15 <ais523> so there's not much point duplicating it here
21:05:24 <wob_jonas> yes, I linked it. two wikis at least, I think.
21:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, isn't that what i said when taneb asked
21:05:52 <wob_jonas> It was still worth to increase the article from stub length, and may still be worth to grow it a bit, just because it's such an important language.
21:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (ive already forgotten tbqh)
21:06:06 <ais523> <Phantom_Hoover> elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart
21:06:12 <wob_jonas> There are entire books on the Lambda calculus too, but it deserves a good article on our wiki still.
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21:07:05 <wob_jonas> And the Sir Robin article that PH linked to has the word "elementary" linked to a page where that concept is clearly described, and it is what ais says it means.
21:07:23 <Phantom_Hoover> tbqh the game of life isn't that interesting from an esolang perspective because a very small subset of what's known about it suffices for TCness
21:08:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i think the 'microscale' engineering needed to e.g. build a replicator is the real meat of it
21:08:50 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I don't see how this speaks against it being an esolang
21:08:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: then I was wondering if Game of Life, born in 1970, was the *oldest* esolang with still active research. I looked at dc, since people still occasionally write new obfus in it, which sort of counts as "active research", but I can't determine for sure whether dc is older or newer than Game of Life.
21:09:11 <int-e> hmm. or perhaps you just find the fiddling boring
21:09:14 <ais523> I think the game of life is interesting because instead of an explicit list of commands, it provides a number of components which feel a bit like they're randomly generated
21:09:32 <ais523> most of which are useless, some of which happen to have functionality that can be pieced together into a TC language
21:09:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: Then I decided that the question is stupid, because both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are so fucking old they probably trump everything, both having been published in 1936.
21:10:15 <ais523> what about the analytical engine's language?
21:10:17 <wob_jonas> And both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are still languages that people research.
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21:10:39 <int-e> yeah I almost wrote earlier that neither lambda calculus not Turing machines are esolangs.
21:10:42 <ais523> also, basic untyped lambda calculus is unlikely to have much research left, people mostly just make derivatives of it
21:11:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, I guess that's true
21:11:55 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think they are esolangs, only without a fixed syntax, but that doesn't make them less of esolangs. the execution model is complete enough.
21:12:15 <int-e> Hmm, perhaps. You prove subject reduction, so the Church-Rosser proof carries over to whatever typed system you really study.
21:12:24 <wob_jonas> if we accept languages with no fixed definition of how they do IO or even deliver a yes-no result and they never halt, then why wouldn't we allow no fixed syntax?
21:12:48 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm trying to say that they're not esoteric enough.
21:12:56 <wob_jonas> plus, ais523 has submitted some articles of his new esolangs that have no fixed syntax, and do you want to go against ais523's claim that those are esolangs?
21:13:03 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh!
21:13:05 <wob_jonas> sorry
21:13:27 <int-e> Well, the ambiguity isn't your fault. :)
21:13:43 <wob_jonas> I think they're esoteric in the sense that they're Turing-tarpits, being Turing-complete but its full ruleset being very small
21:13:45 <int-e> And I can hardly blame you for not reading my mind.
21:14:08 <wob_jonas> And few people use them for actual practical programming
21:14:56 <wob_jonas> and not because it's unpopular, but because they're not very suitable, because just like most other tarpits, they're not rich enough
21:15:25 <int-e> And I would probably say that Turing machines are more esoteric than the lambda calculus, because the latter is an actual viable target language for functional programming.
21:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, i didn't say it didn't have a place on the esolang wiki just that the most interesting stuff about it involves more than computation
21:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> also true
21:16:12 <int-e> (so clearly we disagree on the richness of lambda calculus)
21:16:51 <wob_jonas> oh, I certainly agree that Turing-machines are more esoteric
21:17:02 <Phantom_Hoover> like i haven't actually researched the history involved but it seems to me that the lambda calculus is clearly the richer, more useful computational system; but turing machines were of more scientific interest because they're very clearly physically realisable
21:18:30 <wob_jonas> PH: I think they were of more scientific interest exactly because they're esoteric. they have a strange execution time so asking how fast you can compute something on a Turing-machine is nontrivial and different from the execution time on normal machines;
21:18:56 <Phantom_Hoover> what's a 'normal' machine, in 1930-whatever?
21:20:01 <wob_jonas> finding the smallest universal Turing-machine or the largest number a small Turing-machine can compute gets nontrivial quickly (although there are similarly simple golf questions about finding the smallest universal combinator or something)
21:20:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i've often wondered why turing is the Big Name in the field of early formal computation when church was slightly earlier, he proved essentially the same thing and his formalism has gone on to be vastly more influential in modern computing
21:20:56 <wob_jonas> PH: so you're saying that we have to measure the esotericness of a language compared to its age, and there's not many other languages in their age to compare to?
21:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> what? this isn't about 'esotericness'
21:23:12 <Phantom_Hoover> but anyway, especially early on when 'what will physical computers be able to do' was presumably an important new question, the fact that turing's formal machine could clearly be mapped to the operation of an (idealised) physical computer would have made results like universality far more important than they were for the lambda calculus
21:23:21 <wob_jonas> I mean, that's true, but there's still, I guess, arithmetic notations, which existed back then and could count as very limited programming languages,
21:23:26 <int-e> looking at the Z3... "Data memory: 64 words with a length of 22 bits" "Program memory: Punched celluloid tape"
21:23:43 <wob_jonas> and in particular in 1980 Hilbert considered the set of Diophantine equations, which you could consider an early esolang actually, so there are other languages to compare
21:24:00 <wob_jonas> heck, Diophantine equations might be the earliest esolang that still have active research
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21:26:23 <wob_jonas> PH: yes, but didn't people seriously start to consider building physical computers later than lambda-calculus was published, unless the legends about Babbage are true (they sound as exaggerated as the Da Vinci ones)?
21:27:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't know that much about the actual history! i think they were seriously considering it well before they actually built any
21:28:05 <Phantom_Hoover> like i've always kind of assumed turing had physical realisation in mind when he came up with the turing machine because, well, why else would you come up with anything so painfully awkward
21:28:22 <wob_jonas> PH: but how much before? only two decades, or five decades?
21:28:28 <wob_jonas> hmm wait
21:29:36 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: maybe the point was to have something that could obviously be built in principle (modulo the infinite tape length) :)
21:29:41 <wob_jonas> it seems like some of those legends about Babbage are true, because he built a pretty good mechanical calculator, perhaps better than any before.
21:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, precisely
21:30:04 <imode> mechanical computers were in wide use prior to LC.
21:30:18 <imode> mechanical calculating hardware was in wide use prior to LC.
21:30:19 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: how does one build a random access memory, really? I mean, imagine you didn't know how it was done...
21:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
21:30:41 <imode> hell the earliest programmable hardware was looms.
21:31:45 <wob_jonas> imode: that's true, I have a photo of one in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-khm-kunstkammer-calculator.jpg
21:31:53 <imode> noice.
21:31:57 <imode> beautiful hardware.
21:32:44 <wob_jonas> and that one is clearly a decorative one, probably not much used in reality, but was probably also working (for some value of working), so at that point mechanical calculators must have been "cheap" enough that you would consider giving one as a useless gift to a king
21:33:11 <wob_jonas> although the description said something about how it was used by court astronomers or something
21:33:13 <imode> definitely. just look at the history of cash registers.
21:33:17 <wob_jonas> so maybe it wasn't purely decorative
21:34:05 <wob_jonas> maybe it was somewhat practical, but also beautifully decorative, like many other items in that exhibition, including utensils and grooming tools
21:34:20 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WLANL_-_jpa2003_-_Jaquardweefgetouw_03.jpg looks impressive
21:34:26 <wob_jonas> though some of them did look so richly decorated that I can hardly imagine they're practical to use
21:35:02 <imode> hell, mechanical computers were used to calculate ballistic trajectories in the navies around the world well up through the early 1900's.
21:35:19 <wob_jonas> and the Antikythera mechanism is claimed to be the oldest mechanical computer we know of, and it's from the *antiquities*, and it's one specialized for astronomical calculations
21:35:35 <wob_jonas> so I guess you're right
21:36:05 <imode> I just plopped into this discussion, what's it about?
21:36:07 <wob_jonas> perhaps there were actually languages of that age to compare to, even if I know close to nil about them
21:36:43 <wob_jonas> imode: I started by asking if Game of Life is the oldest esolang with still active research in it, then wondered if Turing-machines fit the bill,
21:36:49 <imode> ahhh.
21:36:59 <imode> oh yeah turing machines fit the bill lol.
21:37:05 <wob_jonas> imode: then it followed up by a discussion of whether Turing-machines are an esoteric language, and how you even define esoteric language,
21:37:07 <imode> persistent TMs are even more obscure.
21:37:51 <wob_jonas> and then about old physically built computers
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21:39:13 <imode> I actually wonder if an abacus counts.
21:39:19 <wob_jonas> My favourite item from that exhibition, though, is a purely decorative one: a statuette https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Gefesselter_Prometheus_(Hagenauer) of which I didn't manage to make good enough quality photos
21:39:19 <imode> (hehe.)
21:40:29 <wob_jonas> because there were big difficulties making photos in a dark room with ugly uneven directional lighting and lots of reflective glass cabinets with all four doors open arranged through a large room and other visitors and no tripods allowed and
21:41:13 <wob_jonas> me having only a compact camera that isn't really ideal for that sort of challenge, even though I definitely really like that camera and think it was really worth its price and have served me well so far.
21:41:36 <wob_jonas> imode: counts for what?
21:41:46 <imode> as the "oldest computer".
21:42:42 <int-e> imode: an abacus counts, adds, and with some care, multiplies as well
21:42:43 <int-e> :P
21:43:22 <wob_jonas> int-e: but didn't the babylonian scribes also add and multiply on clay tablets too?
21:43:23 <imode> int-e: ayyyy there's the pun. :P
21:44:15 <int-e> wob_jonas: we're quickly approaching snakes and log tables, I see.
21:44:17 <wob_jonas> perhaps such a scribe or group of scribes could count as a computer, and programmable too if their liege orders them to do a specific calculation
21:44:46 <int-e> (beware of adders, they are venomous)
21:45:03 <wob_jonas> and yeah, some people make the case that the universe is a giant computer, and it's clearly older than anything invented by humans
21:45:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i think you basically need to discount anything that relies on the human mind as a computer
21:45:21 <wob_jonas> int-e: yeah, I heard that pun already
21:45:23 <imode> yeah.
21:45:41 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer
21:46:03 <Phantom_Hoover> the fickleness of linguistic drift strikes again
21:46:04 <wob_jonas> PH: relies in what sense? all computers built so far rely on the human mind to repair and work for more than a few decades continuously
21:46:19 <wob_jonas> s/repair and/repair so that they/
21:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> to actually perform its computation
21:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i refuse to believe you can be confused on what i mean by this except for the sake of pedantry
21:46:56 <wob_jonas> there have been plans for computers that last for longer, but I don't think any have been built yet
21:48:31 <wob_jonas> not that I'm not impressed by how well some computers launched in space manage to work for decades under physically very limiting conditions, mind you
21:51:53 <wob_jonas> That the Voyager 1 has had a working computer and able to contact us still ever since 1977 is definitely one of the crowning jewels of human-built technology so far.
21:51:55 <int-e> Well, we *can* build computer hardware to last, and be fault-tolerant and redundant, especially when it doesn't need to be fast.
21:52:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: theoretically yes, but I don't think anyone put together the money for it yet
21:52:32 <imode> what's the longest-lasting computer we can build?
21:53:14 <ais523> wob_jonas: I thought it was sufficiently distant that its bandwidth had dropped below the rate required to accomplish anything useful with the communications?
21:53:20 <int-e> wob_jonas: I'm hard pressed to think of a market for it, beyond space crafts (and some other hardware that is hard to access. industrial, perhaps. or things we put inside undersea cables.).
21:53:39 <ais523> also, some of the computers from the early days of transistors may still be working
21:53:41 <wob_jonas> imode: there is some research on that. some people proposed ones that would work for ten thousand years unrepaired or something and is earthbound, and is just a clock (barely counts as a computer), but it's probably unrealistic.
21:53:56 <ais523> thermionic valves are really unreliable, and when people started replacing them by transistors it took a while for them to revise the computer designs
21:53:56 <imode> yeah a clock wouldn't count imho.
21:54:05 <int-e> wob_jonas: anyway, putting some random keywords together: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-28/issue-6/technology-focus/radiation-hardened-space-electronics-enter-the-multi-core-era.html
21:54:10 <imode> turing completeness is what matters.
21:54:20 <imode> smallest, longest-lasting turing complete piece of hardware.
21:54:22 <ais523> we don't have any Turing complete computers though
21:54:34 <imode> yeah yeah mr. pedant.
21:54:44 <ais523> that makes it quite hard to define a computer in real life
21:54:54 <ais523> I guess some sort of informal "usable for programming" is what we care about
21:55:16 <imode> construct me the longest-lasting linear bounded automaton you have.
21:55:46 <int-e> wob_jonas: oh and a nice closing sentence: 'Aircraft flying at altitude, at about 30,000 feet and above, also are starting to experience radiation-induced effects. "There are 500 times more neutrons at 30,000 feet than there are on the ground," points out Aitech's Romaniuk.'
21:55:48 <ais523> hmm, a physically realisable LBA would require some sort of rewritable physical medium to supply the input
21:55:58 <int-e> (near closing, if you want to be technical)
21:56:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: it doesn't look like that, if I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1 correctly
21:56:11 <imode> I wouldn't rely on any electronic or MEMs shit.
21:56:28 <imode> I guess we're also going to talk size.
21:56:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's the two Pioneer probes, both of which were launched prior to the two Voyagers, that can no longer communicate with us
21:56:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: ah right, apparently we can still tell it to steer and get back information telling us it's changed course
21:57:28 <ais523> that wouldn't need a lot of bandwidth
21:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> isn't voyager 2 the furthest
21:58:03 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, there's no market for computers that work for a long time, because nobody cares for such long term investments financially, which is probably why none have been built in practice
21:58:40 <ais523> especially because computer technology improves all the time, and so a computer is likely to become obsolete fairly quickly
21:58:46 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, it's not
21:59:10 <imode> I wouldn't even care about the speed or size of it, I just want the most durable and longest-lasting piece of hardware, in whatever form it may take.
21:59:13 <ais523> although a working computer from, say, the year 2000 would still be useful nowadays, even though it's much less powerful than modern computers are
21:59:25 <imode> you may be able to make a fluidic TM out of some of the hardest material on the planet.
21:59:32 <ais523> imode: I can imagine that some microcontrollers would be very durable
21:59:53 <imode> ais523: I wouldn't rely on anything electrical or explicitly mechanical. wear and tear.
22:00:04 <imode> fluidics sound like a good option.
22:00:11 <ais523> applications like computerised sensors might legitimately want to work for a long time
22:00:39 <imode> 10,000 years in space?
22:00:40 <ais523> imode: I've been thinking of a physical implementation of The Waterfall Model using actual flowing water, but it'd likely accumulate tolerance errors over time unless you had some sort of quantisation involved
22:00:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, and part of that is because better radio wave receivers and transmitters have been built than were possible when it (Voyager 10) was launched, although people probably anticipated back than that such will be built
22:01:07 <imode> ais523: I'm thinking of fluidic logic gates in an enclosed block of some kind of material.
22:01:12 <imode> we don't care about getting output from it.
22:01:20 <ais523> imode: fluid scour would be a huge issue with something like that
22:01:25 <imode> yeah.
22:01:48 <ais523> I think electrical or optical computation would be the right way to go, having no moving parts is likely to increase durability considerably
22:02:10 <ais523> with electrical computation, you'd want to use some really simple, hardwearing components like BJTs
22:02:57 <imode> I dunno, I don't think any of it would last. thermals, etc.
22:03:39 <wob_jonas> further, I believe Voyager 10 has a *programmable* computer because when it was launched, its creators anticipated that future research on Earth would let them decide how to change its program for the better, and communication bandwidth limits wouldn't allow the program to just be executed on Earth
22:03:40 <ais523> I just looked it up, as long as the current stays low enough the only known failure mode of BJTs within their normal operating envelope is due to ionizing radiation
22:03:56 <imode> hm.
22:04:12 <wob_jonas> s/Voyager 10/Voyager 1/
22:04:28 <imode> I still think it should be something more passively mechanical like fluidics. either using gasses or actual fluids.
22:06:42 <wob_jonas> imode: some science writer whose name eludes me did propose that a Turing-complete computer that lives forever may be physically built, but only with capabilities of civilizations much more advanced than ours
22:07:18 <wob_jonas> its purpose would be to run a mind, so that they thus gain immortality
22:07:57 <imode> asimov's the last question?
22:09:12 <wob_jonas> imode: no
22:09:30 <wob_jonas> imode: it actually details the physics part
22:09:41 <imode> oh.
22:09:53 <wob_jonas> and was intended as non-fiction, although "futurology" bounds on fiction
22:10:16 <wob_jonas> it's a pretty famous short book
22:10:33 <zzo38> If you play GURPS, what TL number would you have such thing of that?
22:10:46 <imode> nothing like that's coming to mind immediately...
22:10:52 <wob_jonas> I guess the Voyager 10 might count as one of the oldest computers that is still used for practical purposes today
22:10:58 <wob_jonas> but I could be wrong here
22:13:32 <wob_jonas> As for fluidic computers, there was a supposed one exhibited in the Technisches Museum Wien that I've seen in 2006,
22:14:21 <wob_jonas> namely it was a machine made of glass and water and air but with the glass never moving, powered by a water pump and its inputs controlled by some modern computer,
22:15:36 <ais523> fluid scour is a major source of mechanical damage to things, though
22:15:42 <ais523> presumably it would be less bad with a gas than a liquid
22:16:04 <wob_jonas> that they claimed was a four-bit adder, and with a display of the inputs and outputs in binary also made of those same components with the bits drawn in water (the water was dyed for better visibility),
22:16:06 <Phantom_Hoover> yes i don't see why you'd expect fluidics to be particularly long-lasting
22:16:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean how would overbuilt silicon microchips compare? ais523?
22:17:07 <wob_jonas> the controlling computer had an input terminal where you would input two arbitrary four-bit numbers, and the input display did seem to work correctly,
22:17:38 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: there are a few failure modes for silicon chips, some of which are to do with temperature, others of which are to do with buildup of electrons or holes in the wrong place
22:18:04 <ais523> and some of which are mechanical and even weird, e.g. fusible link PROMs sometimes suffer from the copper in them growing crystals and linking up to other bit of copper
22:18:15 <wob_jonas> however, the controlling computer also forced to reset the inputs to all zeros after like ten seconds of feeding your input and forced to keep it at all zeros for some time, and during those approx ten seconds,
22:18:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ah, like tin whiskers?
22:18:44 <imode> yuh
22:18:50 <wob_jonas> for a significant ratio of inputs I tried the state of the adder didn't stabilize (the gates didn't propagate fast enough or something),
22:19:24 <wob_jonas> so I actually suspect that they never managed to debug the water computer, and just exhibited the buggy one with a workaround that makes the bug plausibly deniable
22:19:41 <wob_jonas> or at least, makes them plausibly claim that it had worked at some point
22:20:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: right
22:20:50 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if it's possible to build a magnetic computer
22:20:57 <wob_jonas> it didn't seem like it had some theoretical design bug, the mechanism seemed like it could work in theory, but I think the glassware was difficult and slow to repair, and so they just couldn't get it right in enough tries and had to exhibit it to get a government grant or something.
22:20:59 <ais523> but it's unclear what the power supply would be and if any sorts of gate exist
22:21:32 <wob_jonas> I think besides the glass it also had a non-moving metal frame to support the weight of the glass.
22:21:39 <wob_jonas> I can look up, I have a photo.
22:22:26 <wob_jonas> How many times have I told this story of the supposed fluidic computer on this channel yet?
22:22:38 <imode> imma go with 5.
22:22:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: what would a magnetic computer mean?
22:23:32 <ais523> wob_jonas: something that used magnetism to send data rather than electricity
22:24:10 <wob_jonas> yep, a metal frame and also some sort of plastic valve-thingies, but the water was the only moving part, supposedly, unless they also cheated on that
22:24:27 <wob_jonas> I think the valve thingies were for maintenance and tuning
22:25:10 <wob_jonas> and it was in 2007, not 2006
22:25:53 <ais523> I find it hard to see how you could do logic with only water as moving parts
22:26:27 <Phantom_Hoover> well, nobody understands fluid mechanics so it must be possible
22:27:24 <imode> fluidic logic gates!
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22:30:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: the water had to be flowing continuously, bits represented by either water flowing fast or barely any water flowing and the tube filled with mostly air, the trick was some syphons:
22:31:25 <wob_jonas> the gate had a part where if water entered on both inputs, then the water would be continuously syphoned out from a container through a higher overflow output pipe, and barely any exited the lower output pipe, but if water came only on one input, then the syphon would never start.
22:31:54 <wob_jonas> I imagine the difficulty is that the water pressure has to be regulated very well, and that's hard to keep through multiple depths of gates.
22:31:55 <ais523> oh, that's clever
22:32:43 <wob_jonas> And this is also why it's so plausibly deniable: it is possible that the mechanism was designed to only give correct output if it was actually "flushed" to all zero inputs on every gate between any two inputs.
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22:33:12 <wob_jonas> So the electronic reset needn't have been arbitrary, it might have been a necessary requirement to use the computer, enforced to visitors.
22:33:14 <ais523> you can probably write a TC language with that restriction, though
22:34:09 <wob_jonas> But because of the instability of the mechanism, I can't really be sure that this is the case. It just makes the plausible cover story so much more believable.
22:34:48 <wob_jonas> I think it must have been a private grant, not a government grant. You don't need such a good cover story for a government grant.
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22:35:08 <wob_jonas> A grant from a private company that is.
22:36:14 <wob_jonas> Either that, or a machine built by a single eso-computer builder glassblower who donated it to the museum when he gave up on making it work.
22:37:11 <ais523> hmm, is it possible to build an amplifier with this sort of logic?
22:37:28 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics#Amplifiers
22:37:29 <ais523> something which converts a slow flow to a fast flow but a zero flow to a zero flow
22:37:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: probably yes
22:37:49 <wob_jonas> or so I'd guess
22:38:20 <ais523> normally, if you have an amplifier, you can make arbitrary circuits, without one you can't
22:38:25 <wob_jonas> at least if you had a reliable flow rate on inputs and power.
22:38:49 <imode> looks like fluid amplifiers exist.
22:39:15 <ais523> it looks like the logic relies on deflection, i.e. you can point a stream of water at another stream of water and it pushes it into a different location
22:39:40 <imode> yeah, kind of like a billiard ball model.
22:39:58 <imode> only with many many more particles. :P
22:40:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: the adder is a non-monotonous circuit, so it needs non-monotonous gates. aren't those practically required to contain an amplifier, in the sense that a transistor used as a unit gate in modern digital computers is an amplifier and has a power input?
22:40:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it can't be exactly what I said, because that would only make an xor gate
22:40:54 <wob_jonas> but perhaps it has an or gate as well as those
22:40:55 <imode> y'all should look at the article lol.
22:40:59 <ais523> I did
22:41:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: I can show the photos if you want to reverse engineer, but they're bad quality so hard to use for that
22:41:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think a half-adder (and thus a full-adder) actually needs amplification; the truth table is 00→00, 01→01, 10→01, 11→10, and in each case the output has no more 1s than the input
22:42:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm, that's true
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22:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it is honestly kind of crazy how much stuff in the game of life comes down to the r pentomino
22:43:13 <wob_jonas> and the mechanism looks like each gate is very simple physically, and seems to have only two inputs and two outputs
22:43:23 <wob_jonas> no wait
22:43:27 <wob_jonas> they have two inputs and three outputs
22:43:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you can think of it as a game of life version of an amplifier: small (easily constructed) input, really big and complex output
22:43:53 <wob_jonas> or two outputs? I can't see
22:44:12 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
22:44:26 <wob_jonas> I think it's only two outputs, but hard to tell from my photo
22:44:26 <ais523> there aren't many useful components with two inputs and three outputs; if it does have that structure it's probably a demultiplexer, which is the only reasonable component I can think of that works like that
22:44:49 <ais523> additionally, a demultiplexer can be made into a half-adder via an OR on outputs 1 and 3
22:45:00 <ais523> (which would just involve connecting them together, fluidically)
22:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> conway has said that he should've invented b36/s23 instead b/c it has the nice easy replicator
22:45:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, if there are three outputs, then the extra output must be drainage of extra water
22:45:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: the machine is visibly built of seven gates, clearly arranged in the configuration you'd need for a four-bit adder
22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> but the r pentomino dies out almost instantly in that, so it would never have supported all the immense variety of r-pentomino/herschel based technology that's used in life
22:45:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: hmm, so the "fluid demultiplexer"'s truth table would be 00→000, 01→001, 10→100, 11→020
22:46:15 <ais523> presumably there's some component that reshapes a 2 into a 1
22:46:59 <wob_jonas> hmm wait
22:47:26 <wob_jonas> if the water flows only down, then it's actually the wrong configuration for a full adder. it has two gates next to each other on the top, but one in the bottom. wtf.
22:48:25 <ais523> the reversible counter machine I'm working on effectively has flows made out of different numbers, and 1→2 amplifiers / 2→1 deamplifiers are basic components
22:48:43 <ais523> although it also allows 0s to move around with meaningful semantics
22:48:51 <wob_jonas> and both input pipes from the two top level gates seem to be connected to the second level gates
22:50:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that a TC-proof you're making over some already published reversible counter machine, or a new esolang? because that doesn't sound like a "counter machine"
22:50:52 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's a new esolang that's intended to be high-level enough to TC-prove it but low-level enough to implement in lower-level esolangs
22:51:11 <wob_jonas> although it looks like the left hand side gates differ slightly from the right hand side gates
22:51:19 <ais523> it's a counter machine in the sense that there's a direct representation of its state in finitely many counters
22:51:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: is the representation with "flows made out of different numbers" a different one?
22:52:20 <ais523> not really, the numbers effectively just move from one counter to another
22:52:43 <ais523> (which in a lower-level counter machine would involve a copy loop, but in the high-level representation it's conceptually a single step)
22:52:56 <wob_jonas> but... are there a bounded number of counters for the whole life of the supposed universal program
22:53:00 <ais523> yes
22:53:13 <wob_jonas> oh, I see
22:53:41 <wob_jonas> you mean some numbers close to zero are special, just like in many counter machines, and that's where you're using 1->2 amplifiers?
22:55:07 <wob_jonas> or is that not what the 1->2 amplifier means?
22:55:13 <ais523> nah, the way it works is that you have a graph which is effectively a graph of control flow, and an instruction pointer which is on a particular graph node
22:55:33 <ais523> data and control flow move in opposite directions; the instruction pointer moves around by swapping with data in adjacent graph nodes
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22:56:09 <ais523> and a 1→2 amplifier would produce 2s behind where the control flow entered, but expect 1s ahead of where the control flow exited
22:56:29 <ais523> it's quite hard to get your head around the data and control flowing in opposite directions, incidentally, it keeps confusing me when I work on the language
22:57:15 <wob_jonas> and is 1 input and 2 output the only possible state of that amplifier, or is there another valid input?
22:57:52 <wob_jonas> I assumed it would take 0 input and 0 output, because that's what I thought "amplifier" means
22:58:00 <wob_jonas> but at this point I'm no longer sure because this is a crazy esolang
22:58:50 <wob_jonas> "data and control flowing in opposite directions" => isn't that also how any circular queue esolang works by the way?
22:59:05 <wob_jonas> I guess it can be easier if there's only one circular queue, not a more complex graph
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2018-08-05
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00:19:48 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57236&oldid=57008 * Galaxtone * (+21) Fixed small errors with "a" and "an" and modified description of the String Concatenate statement.
00:21:01 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57237&oldid=57236 * Galaxtone * (-8) Redudent doubling of greater
00:21:37 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57238&oldid=57237 * Galaxtone * (+8) Undoing previous commit, mis-click of enter key. >:(
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00:26:47 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57239&oldid=57238 * Galaxtone * (-9) Removed redundant doubling of greater than and less than operations symbols.
00:29:11 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57240&oldid=57239 * Galaxtone * (+0) *cough* Woops, My finger hit the enter key, I guess the syntax for String Put has changed.
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03:07:24 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
03:07:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 050250Z 15003KT 7000 RA FEW002 SCT018 BKN062 12/11 Q1012 RESHRA RMK WIND 670FT 21008KT
03:07:37 <shachaf> @metar KOAK
03:07:37 <lambdabot> KOAK 050253Z 27011KT 10SM CLR 17/12 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP127 T01720122 55003
03:07:43 <shachaf> @metar KJFK
03:07:43 <lambdabot> KJFK 050251Z 28009KT 10SM FEW065 FEW250 28/22 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP189 T02780222 51008
03:07:56 <shachaf> i was in nyc last week and the weather was scow
03:08:05 <shachaf> so hot and humid
03:08:12 <shachaf> the dogs now howl
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03:09:00 <oerjan> indeed, i'm glad it's no longer hot here, although somehow the inside of my apartment hasn't cooled down.
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03:09:29 <oerjan> i suspect it is not time to remove the +q yet.
03:10:36 * oerjan has the big door to whatchamacallit open
03:10:54 <shachaf> outside?
03:11:06 <oerjan> well not wuite
03:11:08 <oerjan> *q
03:11:14 <shachaf> is this the real world i keep hearing about twh
03:11:30 <oerjan> it's a room outside of my apartment, but still somewhat enclosed.
03:11:54 <shachaf> a mushroom?
03:12:13 <oerjan> i tried looking up the correct word in english, guessing it was veranda or something, but none of the options on wikipedia seemed to fit.
03:13:03 <oerjan> because it's _not_ protuding from the wall.
03:16:17 <oerjan> perhaps screened porch is closest.
03:16:33 <oerjan> although my apartment is on the second floor...
03:16:46 <oerjan> (one-based)
03:24:22 <oerjan> hm i'm forgetting to eat the food i already put on the table :P
03:24:48 <shachaf> `? oerjan
03:24:49 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
03:25:02 <shachaf> Maybe we should put eating in that, for your convenience.
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03:35:07 <oerjan> sounds good
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04:30:08 <shachaf> Sgeo: will there be an olist on monday twh
04:30:52 <Sgeo> shachaf, give me a bit to figure that out. I'll get back to you on Tuesday.
04:31:47 <shachaf> ok
04:31:53 <shachaf> please make sure the cat does not get hurt twh
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05:21:17 <zzo38> libcurl has a CURLOPT_DEFAULT_PROTOCOL option, although it does not have the option to treat a URL without the scheme as relative to a specified URL or to the current directory.
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06:21:33 <oerjan> . o O ( probably not a lovable rogue )
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08:59:18 <int-e> <shachaf> Maybe we should put eating in that, for your convenience. <-- so s/toe-obsessed/toe-gnawing/ ?
09:02:41 <shachaf> i'd watch out with making gratuitous nonsensical edits to that wisdom entry hth
09:06:06 <int-e> I think it would hardly stand out.
09:06:17 <int-e> But perhaps I missed the implicit irony tag.
09:06:43 <int-e> `? shachaf
09:06:44 <HackEso> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
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12:32:15 <wob_jonas> oerjan: a balcony?
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20:26:28 <Taneb> New unit of mass:
20:26:35 <Taneb> Horsepower-hour-hour-hour per acre
20:27:00 <Taneb> It's about 8.6 teragrams
20:30:00 <shachaf> what happened to measuring mass in metres like everything else hth
20:31:15 <Taneb> shachaf, you can't measure everything with the same scale
20:31:42 <shachaf> my book says the mass of the sun is ~1.5km
20:32:55 <shachaf> which is apparently ~5 µs
20:33:05 <Taneb> That's about 231 zetta horsepower hour hour hours per acre
20:33:47 <Taneb> Meters seem a lot more weildly for this, it has to be said
20:34:10 <shachaf> just measure everything in microseconds
20:34:16 <wob_jonas> shachaf: is this because a few days ago I said that a yard is approximately two pound meters per kilogram, and you want to top it?
20:34:39 <shachaf> No, I didn't see that.
20:34:48 <Taneb> I didn't see that either
20:34:54 <wob_jonas> ok
20:35:11 <Taneb> Clearly people in this channel just like using unconventional units
20:35:17 <shachaf> So 1µs is ~300m
20:35:35 <Taneb> I presume the conversion here is the speed of lite
20:35:37 <Taneb> *light
20:35:40 <shachaf> Right.
20:35:45 <Taneb> (I think phonetically...)
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20:36:30 <shachaf> You also need the gravitational constant to convert mass.
20:36:41 <wob_jonas> look, my electric bill is measured in kilowatt hours, the speed limits are in kilometers per hour, the particle physicists measure energy in electron volts (which I think is actually -1 times what you get if you multiply an electron with a volt),
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20:37:10 <shachaf> whoa, G is only known to four significant digits?
20:37:45 <wob_jonas> the astronomers cosmologists use like five different units of measure for distances alone, my digital blood pressure meter and my doctor gives my blood pressure in millimeters of mercury, and let's not even talk about the chemists,
20:38:20 <wob_jonas> and when I fly on a plane the height is given in either meters or feet, so don't tell me that we're using metric in Europe.
20:38:23 <wob_jonas> We aren't.
20:38:26 <shachaf> a least it's not inches of mercury hth
20:38:44 <wob_jonas> I am trying, but there's only so much I can do.
20:39:08 <shachaf> The metric system is scow anyway. Everyone should use natural units.
20:40:00 <wob_jonas> I am giving lengths in meters when my co-workers want to variously use micrometers, millimeters, centimeters, or meters, depending on what they measure.
20:42:40 <wob_jonas> I'm watching the great videos of the youtubing woodworker Matthias Wandel, who randomly uses meters, centimeters, decimeters, millimeters, thousands of inches, inches, sixteenths of inches, and feet for lengths of parts of the objects he builds, and he's Canadian, where they're supposedly using metric too.
20:44:42 <shachaf> Is using seconds for mass meaningful?
20:45:10 <shachaf> Using metres for mass indicates the Schwarzschild radius or something.
20:45:19 <wob_jonas> And as I work with cameras, I have to know that the reciprocial of the tangent of the half of the angle of view or whatever that is of a camera is given as "35 mm equivalent focal distance", which means
20:45:51 <shachaf> But what does 5µs mean?
20:46:23 <wob_jonas> that it's measured in multiplies of the width or height or diagonal of the "35 millimeter film", which is 36 millimeter high and 24 millimeter tall, depending on whether it's for a horizontal or vertical or diagonal angle of view.
20:46:45 <wob_jonas> And I've read how this works several times but I still can't remember it.
20:47:05 <int-e> Oh I guess astronomy is useless for measuring G... so we have to measure miniscule forces instead. Fun.
20:47:29 <wob_jonas> And to make it worse, descriptions use "focal distance" to mean either the real focal distance, the 35 millimeter equivalent focal distance in horizontal, in vertical, or in diagonal.
20:47:33 <int-e> (Astronomy uses G to infer masses.)
20:48:12 <int-e> "This inherent difficulty has caused big G to become the only fundamental constant of physics for which the uncertainty of the standard value has risen over time as more and more measurements are made." -- fun :)
20:48:43 * int-e is looking at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/puzzling-measurement-of-big-g-gravitational-constant-ignites-debate-slide-show/
20:54:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf, int-e: yes, and the other problem is that nobody can yet make an object whose mass is more stable for decades than a relative 10**-8, so we don't have a definition for kilogram compared across different times that is more accurate than that, and it will probably get worse if you want to compare accurate scientific measurements a century fr
20:54:43 <wob_jonas> om now,
20:55:06 <wob_jonas> and experimental physicists are trying to figure out a way to improve that with some riddiculous arrangement involving counting atoms in a ball of silicon that sounds like it could never work but the physicists swear that it actually will.
20:56:49 <wob_jonas> On the other hand, they can measure distances and time and the Planck constant unimaginably precisely, which seems amazing and impossible.
20:58:08 <wob_jonas> And that is how GPSes work, in the sense that that's why GPS satellites itself know their time and place very accurately,
21:00:28 <wob_jonas> plus there's the additional trick that sounds crazy at first but works when you think about it, that inside the satellite there's a test mass freely floating in vacuum never touched by anything heavier than a few photons, heavily shielded from the various radiations of space, and the GPS measures where that test mass is and corrects its own positio
21:00:29 <wob_jonas> n with thrusters according to it, so that it doesn't drift because of solar wind or other particles.
21:00:52 <wob_jonas> The fucking test mass is effectively in a better vacuum than space, which is saying something.
21:01:13 <wob_jonas> But it actually works, because in space, you can make such a perfect vacuum. On earth, it's impossible even in the best laboratories.
21:02:30 <wob_jonas> So we actually need satellites in space for GPS, anything in the atmosphere or on earth wouldn't work precisely enough, regardless of how it couldn't communicate with GPS receivers, because it can't maintain and measure its own position accurately enough.
21:02:46 <wob_jonas> Or at least, this is my naive understanding from what I've read.
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21:04:05 <wob_jonas> And on top of that, the GPS satellites still have to be corrected for the irregular gravitational field of Earth and relativistic effects.
21:06:02 <wob_jonas> The GPS receivers themselves are quite a technological achievement and have a lot of fiddly parts to get right too, by the way.
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21:10:35 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris and SQLite are both using Julian day numbers for date/time, so the program to use them together can use this too.
21:18:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: are they the Julian number measured in exactly the same way?
21:18:50 <wob_jonas> I mean, to second accuracy, because you were asking about leap seconds.
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21:27:26 <zzo38> It would seem so; a query such as SELECT DATETIME(JULIANDAY()),DATETIME(JULIANDAY_UT1()); gives the same date/time in each case. However, I do not know what SQLite does with leap seconds, although Swiss Ephemeris does handle leap seconds (even if the operating system doesn't, which means that using these functions with no arguments may give an incorrect answer during a leap second).
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23:13:36 <boily> fungot: nostril.
23:13:37 <fungot> boily: after evaluating ( g x ( f y t)) ( apply foo x)
23:36:05 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57241&oldid=57240 * Galaxtone * (+0) Syntax Confliction Resolved.
23:36:35 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57242&oldid=57241 * Galaxtone * (-143) /* Instruction Syntax */
2018-08-06
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00:34:17 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57243&oldid=57242 * Galaxtone * (-59) Boop.
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01:51:05 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas it doesn't count as a balcony because it's not protruding.
01:51:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:52:51 <oerjan> also i stopped gnawing my toes some time during childhood. never completely managed to stop gnawing on my fingers, alas.
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04:16:09 <esowiki> [[Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57244&oldid=50650 * A * (+72) Don't forget that there's an online simulator.
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04:16:44 <zzo38> How to determine with Xlib if a window was created using this client?
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04:44:42 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57245&oldid=57218 * A * (+433)
04:45:44 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57246&oldid=57245 * A * (+0) Spelling..
05:05:24 <esowiki> [[Metafractran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57247 * Challenger5 * (+839) Created page with "'''Metafractran''' is a derivative of [[Fractran]] created by [[User:Challenger5]] in which all program files are irrelevant. Rather than being specified by a program file, co..."
05:07:31 <esowiki> [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57248&oldid=54233 * Challenger5 * (+128)
05:08:40 <esowiki> [[Metafractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57249&oldid=57247 * Challenger5 * (+42)
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07:00:14 <zzo38> Now I made up a SQLite extension for displaying pictures on a X server.
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07:17:28 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57250&oldid=57243 * Galaxtone * (-72) /* Instruction Syntax */ Fixed a little error.
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08:01:23 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57251&oldid=57250 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* S */ Update to String Get to match String Put.
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08:54:21 <zzo38> Are you going to write the specification of Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton in esolang wiki?
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09:07:12 <esowiki> [[ZZT-Flip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57252&oldid=57061 * Zzo38 * (+32)
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09:59:39 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57253&oldid=56631 * A * (+188) My attempt of interpreting a 3-state Busy-Beaver(on wikipedia)(maybe that will prove it Turing-complete?)
10:00:14 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57254&oldid=57253 * A * (-32)
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10:08:12 <int-e> Hrm, what's this... a 3 state TM over a binary alphabet?
10:11:10 * int-e is not happy with states being called "conditions".
10:13:12 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57255&oldid=57254 * A * (+1)
10:13:49 <Taneb> int-e: I think it is appropriate to say that A is in a condition of willful ignorance
10:13:54 <Taneb> (or perhaps a state)
10:16:56 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/utm.png seems relevant
10:19:10 <int-e> (but I have not checked they count states)
10:19:18 <int-e> err, *how* they count states
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12:11:27 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turing-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57256 * Int-e * (+397) Created page with "== Computational class == According to [https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2230 T. Neary and D. Woods], it was shown by L. Pavlotskaya that the halting problem is decidable for all Tu..."
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15:45:17 <wob_jonas> Oh heck.
15:46:31 <wob_jonas> Apparently "does" is another of those English words like "are", which both have a really common meaning and a rare one, so the rare one is completely impossible to search, because in an English you don't even have any hope to automatically parse the sentence and guess whether it's a noun or verb.
15:46:41 <wob_jonas> @messages
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15:52:56 <Taneb> As in, plural of "doe"?
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15:58:16 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes. but you can check a dictionary.
15:58:56 <Taneb> I'm also a native speaker, which affords some advantages
15:59:10 <wob_jonas> (and don't tell me you don't have one. I said a rare word, not a whatever rarity is below mythic rare word that you only find in the OED.)
15:59:31 <wob_jonas> (there are free English dictionaries on the internet.)
15:59:34 <Taneb> (I genuinely don't have a physical dictionary)
16:00:01 <Taneb> (although I did know both the noun definition of "does" and "are", the latter I learnt only yesterday)
16:00:02 <wob_jonas> Taneb: yes, but you have an internet connection, and you don't need the OED, you only need one of those dictionaries you can access freely
16:00:39 <wob_jonas> rare words are in most of those, mythic rare words are in the best of those. there's a rarity below that, but I almost never meet such words, and if I saw one, I'd think it's an error.
16:01:51 <wob_jonas> Taneb: there's also a verb definition for "art", and it's a form of "be", which also causes some problems in searching, but in this case the noun is more common than the verb
16:02:23 <wob_jonas> and then there's "Ares" and "ares", which are two different words, the latter is the plural of the noun "are"
16:02:27 <wob_jonas> so it gets complicated
16:11:55 <zzo38> I do have a dictionary, and I know those stuff
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16:24:22 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a better way of making working interrupting downloads in my "sqlext_curl" SQLite extension?
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16:27:33 <wob_jonas> once you count words so rare that you only find them in the OED, it gets stupid, because there's at least one super-mythic rare meaning for any reasonable combination of letters you care for, and possibly several super-mythic rare meanings for any very common word.
16:28:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: better way than what?
16:28:29 <wob_jonas> do you have a documentation of your extension somewhere, or something?
16:29:05 <wob_jonas> and are you asking about the curl side, the sqlite interface side, or both?
16:30:02 <zzo38> A list of my SQLite extensions are at http://zzo38computer.org/sql/sqlite.txt and sqlext.zip in the same directory contains the source codes and further documentation. I am asking about the SQLite side, although there may be stuff in libcurl too.
16:31:04 <zzo38> What I am currently doing is to prepare the statement "WITH X AS (SELECT 0 UNION ALL SELECT * FROM X) SELECT * FROM X;" and then pass it as the first argument to the progress callback, which then does: return sqlite3_step(usr)!=SQLITE_ROW;
16:31:27 <zzo38> However, that looks like klugy to me.
16:34:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Sorry, I have to leave for a few hours now, but may read that later.
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17:47:03 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57257&oldid=57251 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* If Statements */ \_()_/
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18:32:17 <zzo38> Will Pope Francis I do Vatican III?
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18:44:16 <Taneb> zzo38, I doubt it
18:45:41 <zzo38> Will Pope Francis M do Vatican III?
18:49:24 <zzo38> Actually, what is the highest number that any pope has had? Probably not as high as M, I should think?
18:49:48 <shachaf> Isn't M the mobile version?
18:50:18 <zzo38> M is the roman numbers for one thousand
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19:38:05 <arseniiv> btw hexadecimal roman: i ii iv v vi vii viv vv vvi vvii vviv (≡ivx) vx vxi vxii vxiv (≡ix) x xi xii xiv xv … xlvxiv (≡il) l … (i = 1, v = 4, x = 16, l = 64, c = 256 etc)
19:39:14 <arseniiv> unparenthesized variants correspond to usual quatenary numeric system with digits 0, 1, 2, 3, and parenthesized ones correspond to the one with digits −1, 0, 1, 2
19:39:32 <arseniiv> afair
19:40:59 <arseniiv> it could be prefixed or postfixed e. g. by H as in some asms to distinguish from the usual romans
19:41:36 <arseniiv> also this pre/postfixation allows one to represent zero: H in the last case
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19:47:18 <zzo38> OK
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19:52:40 <zzo38> Someone said tabs should appear in your history when you closed them, not when you opened them. But my opinion is you should be allowed to define your own SQL queries for the history menus.
19:56:03 <arseniiv> wise
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20:03:10 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: look, I'd like a new representation of hexadecimal numbers, but I hate roman numbers so please don't base this on them. please invent something that is at least sort of positional and can represent large numbers too.
20:04:10 <wob_jonas> And ideally, one that can represent hexadecimal floating point numbers, so there's a way to mark the sign and the exponent and the exponent of the sign, though the exponent itself can be in decimal, describe the full syntax.
20:04:28 <ais523> wob_jonas: wouldn't it not be hexadecimal if you changed it to anything but place-value notation?
20:04:29 <wob_jonas> oh, and a decimal point. I forgot that part.
20:04:51 <zzo38> I did see something else where the digits 7 to 1 are written upside down to make the stuff after 8, was someone's idea too I think
20:05:20 <zzo38> (This was on a clock; hexadecimal timekeeping was invented by many people independently, some from before computer machines were invented.)
20:05:20 <ais523> also it isn't a decimal point unless you're using decimal
20:06:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: mostly, but if you, say, optionally insert a cat's scratch mark between every four digits, then I'm willing to still call that hexadecimal
20:07:26 <wob_jonas> and perhaps if there are two separate sets of glyphs for digits, either used alternately, or one set used when you want non-grid digits like when you'd use old style numerals in decimal, that's still fine.
20:07:39 <wob_jonas> But it's hard enough to find *one* good set of digits that doesn't clash with something else.
20:07:57 <wob_jonas> obviously it depends on what you want to use it for
20:08:27 <wob_jonas> I'd like one that's human-readable and human-writable and machine-readable and machine-writable
20:09:53 <wob_jonas> And reasonably easy to learn, not requiring months of training in the basics of arabic or eastern calligraphy, and then differences in stroke order of one digit depending on whether it's in chinese or japanese text.
20:10:28 <wob_jonas> That reminds me, I have a question.
20:11:27 <zzo38> Did you read what I wrote before you were off a while ago today?
20:11:32 <wob_jonas> Where can I find, ideally for free on the internet, a description with detailed illustrations on how to handwrite Russian,
20:12:20 <wob_jonas> not in one of those fancy archaic ways that people used three decades ago or would use on a diploma a dentist puts on his wall, but in a way that I can quickly use for jotting down a few names for reference,
20:12:37 <zzo38> I don't know, but I might would try looking in Wikipedia first to see if they have any
20:13:10 <wob_jonas> and it should include the entire modern Russian alphabet in both upper and lower case, and all variants required if I want to write entire words in lower case, and ideally stress accents and basic punctuation too.
20:14:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I did look. I found only an image showing what looks like older fancy handwriting, with like a single sample for each letter or perhaps two sets of samples, each isolated rather than connected despite that it looks like these are letters designed for connecting the lowercase ones.
20:14:29 <wob_jonas> And no stroke order.
20:15:08 <zzo38> OK
20:15:49 <wob_jonas> One possibility is that I should just pay a private Russian language tutor that I visit in person for a short course or something. But that might cost a ton of money.
20:16:27 <zzo38> If you do then you can write a book.
20:16:28 <wob_jonas> zzo: oh, I'll get back to that in a moment, thanks for reminding
20:17:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: or at least a short few-page guide. not a full-length book from what I learn.
20:17:27 <zzo38> OK
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20:17:37 <wob_jonas> it would cost a ton because it would probably be one-on-one lessons, and those cost a lot, because a language teacher can realistically ask for 17000 HUF per 45 minutes or even more
20:18:12 <wob_jonas> and this would take more than 90 minutes, I think.
20:19:00 <wob_jonas> My current workaround is to write the ISO 9 transcripted equivalent, because I know how to handwrite latin letters with diacritics
20:27:26 <wob_jonas> But before I forget, another question.
20:27:35 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: And ideally, one that can represent hexadecimal floating point numbers, so there's a way to mark the sign and the exponent and the exponent of the sign, though the exponent itself can be in decimal, describe the full syntax. => in that case, what’s wrong with the usual hexadecimal? :P
20:28:41 <wob_jonas> Oh, for bonus, I'd also like a pronunciation for the hexadecimal numbers, although there are already at least two reasonable systems for that. And if possible, also a long pronunciation system, for noisy environments.
20:31:03 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what the two most differentiable sounds are? you could use them to spell out the nybbles in binary
20:31:29 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: there are multiple things wrong. some of them can't be fixed by another standard: nobody can agree if the digits A-Z should be uppercase or lowercase, some programs only accept uppercase (TeX and bc and dc; and you definitely can't change those), but many programs emit lowercase (including some /proc interfaces in the kernel), and I think
20:31:29 <wob_jonas> I've even seen programs that only accept lowercase.
20:32:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: I believe that uppercase is standard; the issue is that in many libraries it's customizable
20:32:32 <ais523> e.g. C *printf uses %X or %x for hex according to the case of letters you want
20:32:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: that would be hard for the mind of both the listener and the speaker, and also the most differentiable ones are very long and varied, to make sure it works for different background noises and loud noises blotting out different moments entirely.
20:32:50 <ais523> the problem there is that most printf specifiers are lowercase
20:32:55 <ais523> so people tend to use %x out of consistency
20:33:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: you want pronouncable ones, right? if not, probably a fucking loud air raid siren and silence.
20:33:29 <ais523> hmm, I guess they need to be self-delimiting too
20:33:48 <ais523> "upwards chirp" and "downwards chirp" might work, it's very rare to misinterpret one as the other
20:33:55 <ais523> you might be unsure which you've heard but then you can ask for a resend
20:33:55 <shachaf> What is a C struct/union type?
20:34:00 <wob_jonas> or perhaps a jet engine and silence, because I'm not sure air raid siren sounds are actually well designed for some hard-on-hearing people who only hear low frequency sounds
20:34:10 <ais523> shachaf: what level of abstraction are you asking at?
20:34:18 <shachaf> It seems to involve a bunch of different properties.
20:34:50 <shachaf> I guess what it includes is, at least: A sizeof; a namespace of members; for each member, an offset.
20:34:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: there are solutions for sounds that aren't self-delimiting if the two sounds are of equal length: what serial lines does works
20:35:06 <ais523> shachaf: oh, I see
20:35:20 <shachaf> But also something like a calling convention which lets you pass a struct type in registers etc.
20:35:22 <ais523> in very early versions of C, members weren't namespaced, and were just constants describing the offset
20:35:23 <wob_jonas> as in, wrapping them so they're now delimited
20:35:34 <ais523> but that's changed since
20:35:46 <zzo38> TeX uses lowercase hex for ^^ and uppercase hex for "
20:36:12 <ais523> I'm not sure if the calling convention is part of the struct type itself, normally ABIs will have a clause about "here's how you give a structure that's six bytes long as a parameter", or the like
20:36:21 <shachaf> It's not strictly the calling convention.
20:36:25 <ais523> that said, more complex ABIs may care about whether the struct contains ints or floats…
20:36:33 <shachaf> What I mean is that it says "if you specify a value for each member, you've specified the entire struct"
20:36:44 <shachaf> Even if there's some extra memory for alignment or something.
20:36:49 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no no, the calling conventions are all defined on each architecture deterministically from the definition of the C struct, which contains the order and type and name (and field width if you're masochistic) of each member plus the alignas specifier and attributes on the struct itself.
20:37:03 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and the sizeof is part of the calling conventions
20:37:07 <shachaf> Yes, the struct itself doesn't include the calling convention, but you see what I'm getting at.
20:37:30 <ais523> I don't think == works on structs, does it?
20:37:31 <shachaf> A struct isn't just a thing in memory with offsets, it can have different representations.
20:37:42 <ais523> and I don't think memcmp does either because it compares padding bytes
20:38:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Where can I find, ideally for free on the internet, a description with detailed illustrations on how to handwrite Russian, // not in one of those fancy archaic ways that people used three decades ago or would use on a diploma a dentist puts on his wall, but in a way that I can quickly use for jotting down a few names for reference => oh neat one! I am native and I didn’t search too much, but after that little search I think
20:38:28 <arseniiv> it’s still described in full only in paper textbooks for children :\
20:38:29 <arseniiv> AFAIR letter connections are fairly simple, only several letters have two forms (в, о, ю, ь, ъ — all because of circles at the right, but I can’t remember about ф in this regard). If there wouldn’t be any better findings, I’ll try to fix something (I don’t use this style in my handwritting, it’s a mishmash of styles, but this one is too slow to use consistently
20:38:58 <shachaf> If you pass a struct with two members to a function, it's permitted to just pass the two values in registers, without passing the padding in, right?
20:38:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you want to know the rules of calling conventions for C and C++ structs on linux-x86_32 and linux-x86_64 and win32-x86_32 and win32-x86_64? I have link to both the ELF specs defining the linux C special case, and Agner's writeup which describes them in a readable way.
20:39:31 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I'm not so much asking about any particular architecture but about what the language construct is.
20:40:04 <wob_jonas> you can also look up in a C/C++ compiler source code, or a debugger source code, or even most of the C calling conventions in a haskell compiler or rust compiler source code, although a few crazy pieces like bitfields and atomics may be missing from the latter
20:40:07 <shachaf> Is struct assignment with = required to copy padding? I would imagine not?
20:40:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, do you mean the semantics of structs guaranteed by the language for all architecture?
20:40:45 <shachaf> Maybe?
20:41:02 <shachaf> I'm not really thinking about C here, I'm trying to figure out how you might define structs in another language.
20:41:09 <wob_jonas> that's a bit complicated. I can point you to the respective standards, but it's likely better to ask on the ##c and ##c++ channels on freenode
20:41:10 <shachaf> Can you make structs/unions a user-defined thing?
20:41:36 <shachaf> If so what information would they need?
20:41:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you mean you want to know about structs in rust or D or some other specific language?
20:41:52 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Oh, for bonus, I'd also like a pronunciation for the hexadecimal numbers, although there are already at least two reasonable systems for that. And if possible, also a long pronunciation system, for noisy environments. => I pass then :D
20:42:04 <shachaf> wob_jonas: No, a hypothetical language.
20:42:33 <ais523> shachaf: IIRC parameter passing is defined as initialisation, which wouldn't copy padding as it's conceptually field-by-field
20:42:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: a hypothetical language can define its rules however you want, but you might want to find out about the rules in existing similar languages first
20:42:50 <shachaf> ais523: Right.
20:42:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's for C, right?
20:43:10 <shachaf> wob_jonas: OK, is there any language that supports something like user-defined struct data types?
20:43:34 <wob_jonas> but I think there's some magic in the standard that actually lets it overwrite the padding bits and bytes if the compiler chooses to, because in practice that's often faster
20:43:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes, we're talking about C
20:43:52 <ais523> I don't think initialisation puts any requirement on what the padding bits are
20:44:03 <ais523> so a memcpy would be allowed by the as-if rule
20:44:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: C, C++, rust, D, probably more but I don't really know any by heart
20:44:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm saying because the C++ rules are much more complicated
20:44:55 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I mean user-defined as in "struct isn't a fundamental notion in the language"
20:45:20 <shachaf> But instead you define a type and say that this is the sizeof and there are values at these offsets and so on.
20:45:36 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, sometimes I feel better if I pretend C++ doesn't exist
20:45:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: are algebraic types, ML-like, or rust enums, a fundamental concept?
20:45:57 <ais523> it's something like three languages at this point
20:46:07 <shachaf> In Go, the "namespace" aspect is a bit more explicit: You can write "type A struct { x int; y int; }; type B struct { A; ... }", and then refer to "b.x"
20:46:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, you want one where you define the memory representation and perhaps even the calling convention?
20:46:13 <arseniiv> ais523: hmm, I wonder what the two most differentiable sounds are? you could use them to spell out the nybbles in binary => maybe something noisy, a fricative like [ʃ] or [ç] or something, and something sonorant like a vowel, maybe a closed one like [i] or [u] or [y] will do better (IDK)
20:46:19 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think some assemblers let you define structs like that
20:46:22 <ais523> shachaf: in OCaml too
20:46:26 <wob_jonas> you can give arbitrary offsets
20:46:45 <wob_jonas> but then you have to write all the code that reads and write the struct, you can only refer to the offset values conveniently
20:46:52 <ais523> wait, I misread
20:46:57 <wob_jonas> since, you know, that's the whole point of assemblers
20:46:57 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I don't know about defining the calling convention explicitly so much as specifying the information in the struct to the point that the compiler can figure out a convention.
20:47:00 <ais523> that's a common extension to C
20:47:09 <zzo38> shachaf: It is possible in some C compilers as well
20:47:21 <ais523> in the OCaml method you have to give namespaces explicitly for struct field access
20:47:30 <ais523> i.e. say which struct it belongs to
20:47:33 <arseniiv> ah, self-delimited fails for thoswe
20:47:34 <shachaf> How do you mean?
20:48:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you can usually just do that by adding specific dummy fields so there's no automatically inserted padding, plus an alignas marking for the struct, and making all fields the right type
20:48:12 <wob_jonas> and in the right order too
20:48:13 <shachaf> I think something like (in C++) "struct B { A base; using namespace base; ... };" could be nice.
20:48:21 <wob_jonas> and possibly including unions
20:48:35 <wob_jonas> but if you want something exotic like overlapping fields, then you're out of luck unless perhaps you can do it in fortran
20:48:41 <wob_jonas> I mean, partially overlapping fields
20:48:42 <shachaf> Unions are "just" structs where all the members have offset 0.
20:49:07 <wob_jonas> no, I mean, two fields where the upper part of one overlaps the lower part of the other
20:49:12 <shachaf> Kind of? I guess the calling convention can get tricky.
20:49:24 <zzo38> Yes, you can use unions, and with GNU C you can also have zero length arrays
20:49:30 <shachaf> I don't care about overlapping fields very much, I think in a case like that you might be better off doing it manually.
20:49:52 <wob_jonas> although I think you can do even that with unnamed unions, which C and rust now have, and unions in C++ at the cost of it being slightly more difficult to reference the fields
20:49:58 <shachaf> zzo38: C99 has something similar to zero-length arrays.
20:50:25 <zzo38> Yes, the GCC documentation mentions that, but it isn't as good as real zero-length arrays, I think
20:50:33 <wob_jonas> C++ and rust both have improved support for unions now, although rust's isn't perfect yet, but people always want to improve everything in rust, so duh
20:51:12 <ais523> Rust has tagged unions, I expect?
20:51:19 <ais523> the untagged kind is rather ridiculously unsafe
20:51:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh, you want zero-length arrays? then write it with rust structs and rust unions, each #[repr(C)] and possibly whatever the new syntax of alignof is
20:51:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: rust fully supports zero-length anything, and even has special language rules to make them work really well
20:52:12 <wob_jonas> only problem is, no anonymous inner structs/unions yet, but there's a proposal, and it will go through because it's needed for wrapping some C interfaces
20:52:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: rust has both
20:52:25 <ais523> gcc supports zero-length arrays, which is annoying when you're trying to cause an error during type checking
20:52:36 <zzo38> You can use negative lengths to cause an error during type checking.
20:52:39 <wob_jonas> and yes, the untagged is unsafe, but sometimes you want that to control representation exactly
20:52:41 <zzo38> That is what I do
20:52:44 <ais523> my static_assert implementation has to use a negative-sized array, right
20:52:52 <wob_jonas> the tagged ones are called enum
20:53:06 <shachaf> In addition to C structs/unions I want to figure out whether C++-style (non-virtual) methods are a good idea or not. They're also an odd mix of several things.
20:53:12 <ais523> a tagged union is really a cross between an enum and a union
20:53:18 <ais523> enumion
20:53:21 <wob_jonas> and #[repr(C)] enum even have a definite representation now, or will soon have iirc
20:53:38 <wob_jonas> as in, a representation promised by the language in all future compilers
20:53:53 <ais523> that's kind-of weird, C compilers aren't stable as to how to represent enums
20:53:57 <zzo38> (I have also seen using a enum with a division by zero to cause conditional compiler errors)
20:53:59 <wob_jonas> although I think only if you add a #[repr(u32)] or similar to tell what type the tag is
20:54:01 <shachaf> They give you namespacing, so you can write "v.push(x)" instead of "vector_push(v, x)"
20:54:13 <shachaf> The namespacing is nice because you don't have to type the type name everywhere.
20:54:33 <shachaf> But they also give you an implicit "this" argument, which seems kind of pointless?
20:54:44 <ais523> shachaf: some languages use "unified call syntax" where a.f(b) and f(a,b) are syntactic sugar for each other
20:54:58 <shachaf> ais523: I guess that can work if you have overloaded functions.
20:55:06 <shachaf> But it's kind of ugly to put f in global namespace.
20:55:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: in rust, if you add #[repr(C)] #[repr(u32)] or similar for almost any integer type, then the repr is defined, at least in not too old versions, as a struct whose first element is the tag and the second is a union of the variants or of structs of the variants or something.
20:55:15 <ais523> yes, it presumably only makes sense with overloading
20:55:31 <ais523> although, I can envisage a language where the options are a.f(b) and n.f(a,b) where n is a namespace
20:55:34 <shachaf> I think the idea of methods is, an object is a "dynamic" namespace which is created at runtime.
20:55:35 <ais523> i.e. a has a "default" namespace
20:55:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: in most other cases, it's implementation-defined, because the compiler does some optimizations on the representation that they don't want to promise to be the same in the future, and are a bit long to describe,
20:56:13 <ais523> wob_jonas: like Option<Box<T>> using a null pointer for the Nothing case?
20:56:28 <ais523> and thus not needing a separate tag at all?
20:56:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, although it's more general than that, and complicated
20:57:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know the full rules, and don't want to know
20:57:33 <ais523> right, I was just giving an example of the sort of optimisation you'd expect
20:58:07 * ais523 vaguely wonders if, in the case that you have an enum where all the payloads are pointers with alignment > 1, it's efficient to put the tag in the low-order bits of the pointers
20:58:08 <wob_jonas> basically, usually you let the compiler do its thing, but if you want a specific representation for either passing to or from non-rust code or optimization, then you use structs and unions and enums with specific #[repr] tags to achieve exactly the representation you want, like you can do in C too
20:59:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: it depends on what you want to optimize for, low memory usage like in the heap of a prolog or scheme compiler, or fast computation like in a struct you just filled and pass to a function?
20:59:25 <shachaf> wob_jonas: That also seems like something I'd rather specify in user code instead of as a compiler rule.
20:59:59 <wob_jonas> this is why the compiler has to be conservative with what optimizations it will do, at least when it has to fix the representation for external crates, rather than when it can get away with anything by the as-if rule
21:00:14 <shachaf> If you have enum<T> { One, Two, Three(Box<T>) }, will it use two invalid pointer values (e.g. 0 and 1) for the first two tags?
21:00:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: right, I was mostly just curious as to what the performance was like speed-wise (the memory savings are obvious)
21:00:57 <ais523> 1 is not an invalid pointer value on all platforms; in fact, 0 is not invalid on all platforms either
21:01:09 <ais523> a pointer to 0 might be fairly useful on the 6502
21:01:18 <shachaf> Right.
21:01:27 <ais523> (this sort of thing is why C gives flexibility for NULL to be something other than all-bits-zero)
21:01:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: but besides the optimization for when you tell the compiler that the contents of one branch is a nonzero pointer or integer (wrapped in any abstractions) and there's only two branches, there is an optimization for nested enums, and for enums with only one branch where the arm type isn't void, and I think more
21:01:38 <shachaf> But surely on most platforms there are some pointer values that can be considered invalid.
21:01:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: one thing that's not obvious is when you want to put the tag at the start and when at the end
21:01:52 <ais523> at the time there would normally be unmapped bytes in the middle of the memory space, maybe 0xA000 would make for a good NULL
21:01:59 <shachaf> C++ null pointers-to-members are often represented as -1, because 0 is a reasonable offset.
21:02:27 <ais523> what is a pointer-to-member? is it effectively a "function pointer for a getter" but optimised?
21:02:56 <shachaf> It's an offset into a struct, more or less.
21:03:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, if this is "repr(C)" you'd put the tag at the start, because of the guarantees C gives about struct layout
21:03:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: some people say that future rust compilers should reorder fields in structs if that avoids padding fields. it is clear that the current docs allow rust to do this, at least for structs without a #[repr(...)] that excludes that, but I for one don't think it's a good idea to actually do that ever
21:03:39 <shachaf> struct A { int x, y; }; A a; int A::*p = &A::y;
21:04:03 <shachaf> In this case you can use a.*p to get the y from an A
21:04:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: if all the fields in a struct are power-of-2 size they should be stored in reverse size order; perhaps that should be done in the source, though, rather than by the compiler
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21:06:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, and there's actually another guaranteed representation case: a "C-like enum" with #[repr(i32)] or almost any other integer type, which is basically one with all arms empty, what get from #[repr(i32)] enum { X, Y, Z } or from #[repr(i32)] enum { X=2, Y=4, Z=3 }
21:07:47 <wob_jonas> I have a totally different OT question, I want to ask it before I forget
21:08:54 <wob_jonas> today's bonus comic https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/laws-and-sausages says that Zach (the creator of SMBC) is launching a new popularized nonfiction webcomic. He teams up with an expert in the nonfiction topic the webcomic popularizes, and with an "artist".
21:09:24 <wob_jonas> My question is, who draws the comics and what does the "artist" do and what the heck Zach does if the artist draws the comics and the expert gives the content?
21:09:48 <ais523> some comics work by assembly from components
21:09:57 <ais523> like, they'll have stock images of their characters, locations, etc.
21:10:07 <ais523> and then to make the comic someone will copy-and-paste the images and add words
21:10:17 <ais523> that tends to be a good way to save time if you have a lot of recurring characters
21:10:21 <wob_jonas> And why do they need an artist if Zach could handle all the art just fine so far.
21:10:25 <ais523> normally you'll have some new art in a comic (but not always!)
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21:10:54 <Phantom_Hoover> the expert gives the expertise
21:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> zach would presumably mostly be the writer
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21:11:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: I had heard of a separate letterer or a separate colorist or a separate writer. separate writer might be a good guess for Zach actually, in which case the artist would do all the drawing.
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21:12:52 <wob_jonas> oh. http://lawsandsausagescomic.com/about says "Laws and Sausages is co-written by brothers Greg Weiner and Zach Weinersmith, and drawn by Dennis Culver."
21:13:14 <wob_jonas> so both the expert and zach writes, or so they claim, and the artist draws.
21:15:14 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: on cursive: this https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/пиши_русские_буквы_правильно shows some connections (maybe not all form variations but it’s a good start nonetheless); as one can guess, in a connection the letter to the right decides form of the left letter, and it’s a simple rule: whether the right letter starts from down or up. On stroke order I’d approve https://i.pinimg.com/
21:15:14 <arseniiv> originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
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21:15:34 <arseniiv> oh the link should concatenate to https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
21:16:02 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: thanks
21:17:15 <arseniiv> also I could make a screencast on writing various things. Can’t say it would be 100% canonical, but all the same, people write differently
21:17:21 <arseniiv> not today though
21:18:02 <arseniiv> and it would be mouse-writing with all the consequences :D
21:18:28 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: thanks
21:18:48 <wob_jonas> those two are good links
21:19:35 <arseniiv> glad you liked them
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21:20:01 <wob_jonas> How is the left stroke of the en written? is that one you're supposed to write after the entire word, like accents and t's stroke, according to teachers, although I never do that?
21:20:23 <wob_jonas> Or is the whole en written in one long unbroken line?
21:21:14 <wob_jonas> Oh, this looks like a version that's designed for writing almost everything in one unbroken line, except the j
21:22:02 <wob_jonas> or perhaps not, because the o with a low connection after looks hard that way
21:24:10 <wob_jonas> and similarly to the en, I wonder how you write the left side of the ju
21:24:18 <wob_jonas> still, this helps a lot
21:25:54 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Or is the whole en written in one long unbroken line? => this one. I’ll show tomorrow I swear
21:26:27 <wob_jonas> I can try to practice based on this. I'd probably have to write much slower than I usually write latin letter text for myself, but the latin letter text is barely readable (even for me) then
21:26:31 <arseniiv> at least as I remember it
21:27:08 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: well, now I have to remind you. and if you do it, please publish it to somewhere that anyone can watch, like youtube.
21:27:36 <arseniiv> yeah if I write quite fast, the result is a mess. I was doing that at uni
21:27:41 <wob_jonas> and make sure you aren't writing so fast that the video doesn't actually show all the details of the stroke order
21:27:49 <arseniiv> youtube seems okay
21:27:52 <wob_jonas> sure, the uni is where I learned too
21:28:19 <wob_jonas> also some math notation besides latin letter text, and lots of abbreviations
21:28:37 <wob_jonas> in the first few years of university that is
21:28:49 <wob_jonas> it gets less heavy on writing later
21:29:09 <wob_jonas> except on a few exams and competitions
21:29:18 <arseniiv> hm I don’t know if there a difference in math beside digits in cursive
21:29:27 <arseniiv> I’ll include digits
21:29:57 <arseniiv> and punctuation, but I’m unsure about quote marks
21:30:21 <wob_jonas> there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages, then the teacher, who thought I was good at that subject, told me that if I write even one more line he'll kick me out, but then I placated him by saying that the first five pages are actually not even needed for the part I'm supposed to say so he can just ignore those
21:30:36 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I don't need that
21:30:44 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I won't write math in russian
21:31:02 <arseniiv> oops I misread
21:31:10 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you can still do it for other people if you want, but I already know how to write math in Hungarian or English, and don't need it in russian
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21:31:56 <arseniiv> yeah then just digits. The rest is no doubt the same
21:32:49 <arseniiv> well gtg
21:33:03 <wob_jonas> bye
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21:33:30 <arseniiv> bye!
21:37:04 <zzo38> Did you see my SQLite extensions by now?
21:38:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, we had other chat
21:38:17 <wob_jonas> I have it open in tabs
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21:42:13 <zzo38> OK
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22:31:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sorry, I won't be able to look at it this evening, it's too late and I found more interesting things
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2018-08-07
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00:42:03 <esowiki> [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57258&oldid=57248 * Challenger5 * (+2)
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00:57:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57259&oldid=57255 * A * (+0) :(
00:59:07 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57260&oldid=57259 * A * (+66) Oh no! I have to paste it on the pastebin. :(
01:01:02 <esowiki> [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57261&oldid=57260 * A * (+1)
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01:30:15 <oerjan> . o O ( some does, some deer, some female deer )
01:33:02 <oerjan> regarding dictionaries, i am finally getting around to italian songs and am somewhat annoyed that wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented (barring actual IPA, necessary to know stress and vowel quality)
01:34:42 <oerjan> the russian ones are, presumably because it would be insane not to. and greek has mandatory accents so its spelling -> pronunciation correspondence is actually better than italian (but much worse in the opposite direction)
01:35:42 <oerjan> (also the russian entries use a great automatic IPA module)
01:35:48 <alercah> they're not properly accented? blah
01:35:57 <alercah> unless the accents are optional that should be fixed
01:36:09 <oerjan> alercah: they are optional, but you need them in dictionaries
01:36:11 <alercah> ahhh
01:36:20 <alercah> that should probably be fixed though
01:36:23 <oerjan> (except at the very last syllable, where they're mandatory)
01:36:29 <alercah> maybe with like "unaccented form of <word>" as a redirect
01:36:42 <alercah> I have search for several languages in english wiktionary as search keywords
01:36:52 <alercah> (by which I mean main wiktionary search, but with #Language at the end
01:37:34 <oerjan> alercah: the russian entries use the unaccented form as the article name but still include accents on the entry itself
01:42:02 <alercah> oerjan: interesting
01:42:13 <alercah> Irish entries use accents in the page name
01:42:21 <alercah> this is for English wiktionary though
01:44:09 <oerjan> for russian you pretty much have to do it that way because no one uses the accents outside dictionaries and textbooks. they cannot even get the new letter Ё to stick.
01:44:49 <oerjan> (people use Е instead)
01:46:22 <alercah> ah
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01:48:58 <oerjan> this entry has audio which sounds to me like the accented version would be mèttere, which is wrong https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mettere#Italian
01:49:11 <oerjan> (as i found by checking the italian wiktionary)
01:49:45 <oerjan> the distinction between è and é isn't easy for a norwegian, we pretty much have them as allophones :P
01:50:39 <alercah> yeah
01:51:03 <alercah> things that are allophones in your native language are always difficult to handle
01:51:22 <alercah> I can't really manage palatized/velarized distinction
01:51:23 <oerjan> and ó and ò are similar but perhaps not quite as bad
01:51:46 <oerjan> my dialect has palatal consonants so i got a bit of a head start.
01:51:57 <oerjan> (not all norwegian dialects do)
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01:55:15 <oerjan> although we don't have any velarization, the dark english l helped there.
01:55:51 <oerjan> i think. assuming i actually do it right.
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03:11:09 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages [...] <-- i think you've got oral exams wrong hth
03:11:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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03:12:45 <alercah> unless wob_jonas is the doctor
03:17:45 <zzo38> Do you play Scrabble with memoryless wildcards?
03:25:29 <zzo38> Is wob_jonas a doctor?
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03:38:20 <oerjan> i think he may have a doctorate?
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03:38:59 <zzo38> OK
03:42:03 <oerjan> i am not sure though.
03:42:15 <oerjan> i find an MsC thesis.
03:43:27 <zzo38> OK
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04:14:37 <zzo38> They should add into bsdtar a command to specify the format when reading a archive, to override the autodetection. (It says there is a --format option but it can be used only when writing and not when reading.)
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04:15:49 <Sgeo_> I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?
04:15:59 <Sgeo_> Factor is not a Lisp but I think qualifies for the latter part
04:18:24 <zzo38> (I originally installed bsdtar because it could read truncated ZIP archives, while 7-Zip and Info-Zip do not.)
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05:00:33 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57262&oldid=56450 * A * (+6)
05:01:32 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57263&oldid=57262 * A * (-156) /* Tutorial */
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09:06:33 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented", "the russian ones are" => in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation.
09:06:45 <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries?
09:06:50 <wob_jonas> @messages
09:07:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: mind you, in the English wiktionary, pronunciation is missing for most English words, and you know how bad the correspondance is there
09:08:32 <wob_jonas> if I'm at home, I can use my paper dictionaries to look up the pronunciation of many words
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09:10:22 <wob_jonas> "maybe with like "unaccented form of <word>" as a redirect" => no no. the unaccented form is the normal form, so it's the page title. but the accents are shown in the bold header of each separate unrelated etimology under the language and possibly etimology headings
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09:11:19 <wob_jonas> you find the unaccented form in normal text, so that's what has to be the page title, and in the rare case when you're reading a children's text, either you remove the accents or there's some bot that creates redirects from the accented form
09:12:06 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's like for English dictionaries that show hyphenation in the headwords. wiktionary could do that, but doesn't for some reason, and the page title would not include the hyphenation dots
09:28:21 <wob_jonas> or Hungarian dictionaries that mark compound words written without the hyphen with a vertical bar in the headword, because that is a concise way to tell the etymology for most of them, and for some compound words you would get the wrong hyphenation otherwise
09:47:51 <wob_jonas> "Is wob_jonas a doctor?" => no.
09:50:03 <wob_jonas> think he may have a doctorate?" => I don't. I started a PhD studies, but stopped, I didn't write a thesis and didn't take the final exams either
09:50:15 <wob_jonas> I also didn't defend a thesis, obviously
09:50:41 <wob_jonas> I did defend the MsC-equivalent thesis and got the MsC-equivalent degree
09:51:22 <wob_jonas> "I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?" => scheme does, together with a builtin if control structure
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11:27:40 <esowiki> [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57264&oldid=57086 * Hakerh400 * (-35) Updated language description
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12:55:50 <esowiki> [[Noida]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57265 * Saka * (+3007) Created page with "Noida is an esolang created by [[User:Saka]]. It is designed to be simple and easy to write an interpreter for. Noida is short for "No idea" because I didn't know what to nam..."
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13:44:54 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57266&oldid=56201 * Saka * (+12) /* My Languages */
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14:42:14 <wob_jonas> `olist 1133
14:42:15 <HackEso> olist 1133: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:42:39 <wob_jonas> Who was the one who guessed there'd be an olist yesterday? You were wrong. But there is one today.
14:43:13 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh hey I’m almost done
14:43:32 <wob_jonas> I'm not. I'm still at work
14:43:40 <wob_jonas> and getting back to work in a moment
14:43:43 <arseniiv> people mess my concentration however
14:44:16 <arseniiv> no problem, I still will be editing the video after it’s recorded
14:44:39 <arseniiv> and you may watch it any time
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15:52:47 <imode> carl hewitt is a crank, change my view.
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16:10:06 <xkapastel> why? you're correct
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16:11:12 <xkapastel> the initial stuff on actors was okay but now he's in to this weird DirectLogic stuff where he posts cryptic ms word documents on arxiv and responds to questions like a fortune cookie
16:11:34 <xkapastel> "Types are fundamental to computation. Lucky numbers 7, 11, 23."
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16:12:46 <imode> oh he went way overboard with actors. his original paper reads like a seriously unhinged person's monologue, nothing of substance, and what's more he's now claiming that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines.
16:13:09 <xkapastel> yeah the real number stuff, due to unbounded nondeterminism i think?
16:13:54 <imode> yeah but he fails to even produce a proof...
16:14:50 <xkapastel> i'm not even a fan of actors these days, they are basically a form of callbacks
16:15:20 <xkapastel> there was at least one person who claimed to understand hewitt's posts on lambda the ultimate but he hasn't been around in a while
16:15:46 <imode> I'd like them to sit down and explain to me what the fuck he's on about to be honest.
16:15:52 <xkapastel> i just want to see a simple directlogic interpreter
16:16:05 <imode> I read the original paper, in all its scanned-in low-res glory, and it was a mess.
16:16:09 <imode> no actual formalisms.
16:16:21 <imode> I haven't seen DirectLogic, I'll look that up.
16:16:52 <xkapastel> it's connected to his new ActorScript stuff, supposedly some kind of "inconsistency robust" logic
16:17:13 <imode> how in the world is he going to handle that.
16:17:14 <xkapastel> ActorScript itself is not very well defined
16:17:28 <xkapastel> and he seems to introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up
16:17:34 <xkapastel> based on what you can see in the arxiv docs
16:17:58 <xkapastel> if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it
16:18:02 <xkapastel> but all he does is write ms word docs
16:18:16 <imode> we have "inconsistency robust" logic, it's called computation.
16:18:39 <imode> the hell is he on about..
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16:19:07 <imode> http://www.subjectcentric.com/posts/carl_hewitt_s_direct_logic__inconsistency_tolerant_reasoning_and_subject-centric_computing/ I found this on Direct Logic.
16:20:28 <imode> "it means we have arguments for both P and ~P" okay, while that says nothing about the truth value of the proposition, what in the world can you say with that formula.
16:21:00 <xkapastel> well, paraconsistent logic is a thing
16:21:03 <xkapastel> hewitt didn't invent that
16:21:21 <xkapastel> there are ways of dealing with knowledge bases that contain both `P` and `not P`
16:21:31 <xkapastel> the thing is, hewitt doesn't really describe how his works
16:21:33 <imode> right, but is that really all direct logic is.
16:21:46 <xkapastel> it's not clear what direct logic is, because it makes all sorts of grandiose claims
16:21:56 <xkapastel> for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems
16:22:05 <xkapastel> he claims the second one is actually incorrect
16:22:09 <imode> now that would be a fuckin' sight.
16:22:44 <xkapastel> iirc he claims direct logic is both sound and complete and capable of expressing properties of real numbers
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16:22:55 <imode> got any links to some of the more "focused" papers he's published?
16:22:58 <xkapastel> no
16:22:59 <imode> or, should I say, uploaded.
16:23:00 <xkapastel> lol
16:23:04 <imode> lmao.
16:23:20 <xkapastel> none of the stuff is focused, that's what i've been getting at
16:23:29 <xkapastel> if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting, even if he's wrong
16:23:38 <xkapastel> people have made grandiose claims and been wrong before, i don't hold that against them
16:23:45 <xkapastel> what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process
16:24:15 <xkapastel> it's just a tease, he claims to have this great idea which is almost certainly wrong but still interesting, but he'll never actually describe it to you
16:24:18 <imode> it's an attempt to delay the discovery that he's full of shit.
16:24:33 <imode> he apparently has quite the cult of personality.
16:25:32 <imode> https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I'm going in.
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16:28:27 <imode> well, he's stated the abstract 4 times.
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16:29:04 <imode> my god there's more quotes than self-authored material.
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16:29:50 <imode> dave ackley has more coherence than this guy.
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16:36:49 <imode> okay, so he walked through how to derive inconsistency using a catch-22. he then shows the same derivations in almost exactly the same notation (only THIS TIME he's writing `catch-22` on everything) with little to no changes, other than he doesn't discard the contradiction.
16:37:34 <imode> he's restated the abstract another 10 times.
16:42:58 <imode> 35 pages down, and I wish I was kidding but these pages are so short.
16:44:05 <imode> there is a god damn quote on every page.
16:45:29 <imode> okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper, and now we're at the appendix. "Details of Direct Logic".
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16:47:30 <imode> "you can't parse real numbers." thank you, carl, I didn't know that.
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16:49:00 <imode> he appears to be constructing some kind of meta-logic that actually differentiates between different kinds of logical objects. you can reason over types, booleans, natural numbers, propositions, proofs, and theories.. okay, that's higher-order logic.
16:49:29 <imode> I forgot sentences in there.
16:50:29 <imode> meaning you can reason about the actual formulas, the string forms of said formulas, and some indirect references to other formulas.
16:50:48 <imode> this man likes his unicode.
16:51:17 <imode> there are seperate inference rules for the different types.
16:54:10 <imode> and a few pages later, there's nothing actually addressing the concept of inconsistency.
16:56:20 <imode> he strikes me as a sort of George Spencer Brown figure.
16:57:45 <imode> xkapastel: you were right, that was incredibly... unhinged. I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao) but I never expected it to come from a "well-cited" source like Hewitt.
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17:26:31 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c
17:27:12 <arseniiv> an imperfection-rich thing about cursive
17:27:33 <arseniiv> hope it’s more useful than harmful :D
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19:07:33 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57267&oldid=57093 * DMC * (+35)
19:16:14 <esowiki> [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57268&oldid=54961 * DMC * (+36) /* Examples */
19:20:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cmax521 * New user account
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19:22:54 <wob_jonas> imode: "that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines." => I hope it's not just a cheap marketing shot where he later proves that they're actually equivalent to turing machines with a random source
19:23:23 <wob_jonas> becuse these days we tend to think those are probably equivalent
19:25:08 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up" => ugly
19:25:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57269&oldid=57135 * Cmax521 * (+142) /* Introductions */
19:25:54 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it / but all he does is write ms word docs" => so there's no interpreter, not even a partial one?
19:25:55 <wob_jonas> wow
19:26:32 <imode> yeah there's nothing of substance in anything he writes.
19:26:57 <imode> wob_jonas: his argument is "unbounded determinism" yields hypercomputation.
19:27:01 <wob_jonas> xkapastel: "for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems / he claims the second one is actually incorrect" => ah, it's getting worse
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19:27:37 <wob_jonas> imode: doesn't that mean that it's impossible to interpret on a turing-machine or subset then?
19:27:44 <imode> yes.
19:27:48 <wob_jonas> great
19:27:51 <imode> which is total bullshit.
19:27:53 <wob_jonas> so that's why he doesn't have an interpreter
19:28:04 <wob_jonas> at least that part is consistent
19:28:26 <imode> just because our machines are LBMs doesn't stop us from simulating TMs.
19:28:34 <imode> so that should be easy for him...
19:28:46 <imode> he's just a hack.
19:28:51 <wob_jonas> "if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting" => I have a better idea, we could just tell him some good references to read first instead, in his free time
19:28:59 <wob_jonas> what languages does he speak?
19:29:03 <imode> english.
19:29:06 <wob_jonas> maybe he can be educated if he gets good books
19:29:08 <wob_jonas> only?
19:29:26 <imode> seems to be.
19:29:36 <imode> he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image.
19:30:23 <wob_jonas> "what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process" => yes, so let's just ignore what he says and send him to read books
19:31:01 <wob_jonas> "he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image." => does he just make an autobiography page with no references, or does he also add reasonable references, like articles accepted by respected journals or something?
19:31:14 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACarl_Hewitt%2FArchive_2
19:31:21 <wob_jonas> also, I'd ask which language of wikipedia, but if he only reads English, then it's sort of obvious
19:31:34 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carl_Hewitt
19:31:45 <wob_jonas> ah, currently deleted. good
19:32:23 <imode> he's such a crank..
19:32:41 <wob_jonas> then it's not worth worrying about, at least as an esolanger, since the wikipedians already see the problem and delete his autobio article. I don't care if he writes some angry messages, people are good enough to ignore those.
19:33:04 <imode> he's uploaded to arxiv too.
19:33:08 <wob_jonas> you'd only have to worry if he managed to get his autobiography page contain the inflated claims and remain there.
19:33:10 <imode> if you read back I went over his paper.
19:33:34 <imode> I'd like to say it was a brief cursory reading but there wasn't much in there. the bibliography was half of it.
19:33:52 <imode> the real challenge for carl hewitt is to find a page that doesn't have a quote from somebody else on it.
19:33:58 <wob_jonas> imode: meh, so what. everyone knows arxiv can contain preprints, and that you can change the metadata later to indicate which journal has accepted the article, with a full reference, that people can then check in the journal
19:34:35 <imode> https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I want you to read this.
19:34:40 <wob_jonas> if he uploads some nonsense to arxiv, I wouldn't worry about. if he spams arxiv, arxiv probably has a way to deal with it
19:34:46 <wob_jonas> imode: I really don't have the time, sorry
19:34:52 <wob_jonas> I can read the abstract
19:35:11 <imode> ohoho, if you can find the time, read it. it's worth your while.
19:35:14 <wob_jonas> jesus, that's not an abstract for an article. what's this, a full book?
19:35:25 <imode> it's 104 pages of pure unadulterated bullshit.
19:35:37 <wob_jonas> imode: certainly not today for the 104 pages. and I don't think I will ever find the time for that, sorry.
19:35:46 <imode> it's okay. half of them are the bibliography.
19:35:46 <int-e> wow, 102 revisions so far
19:36:21 <imode> (in reality, a third of them are. the other third are the actual paper, which is mostly quotes, and the appendices, which are also mostly quotes.)
19:37:52 <imode> int-e: I'd love to get a friggin' diff because I can't imagine anything of substance was changed.
19:37:59 <wob_jonas> imode: great, the abstract really seems to say that his model is uncomputable
19:38:59 <wob_jonas> imode: it's PDF-only, so diffing will almost certainly be difficult
19:39:07 <wob_jonas> he doesn't upload whatever was the source of the PDF
19:39:11 <imode> yeah.
19:39:43 <wob_jonas> "my god there's more quotes than self-authored material." => wow
19:40:44 <wob_jonas> "okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper" => that happens, but for a 104 page long paper it's unusual. but he has to source all those quotes he has, right?
19:41:07 <imode> yeah, that's my point.
19:41:19 <imode> the number of quotes is equal to the number of bibliography entries...
19:42:17 <wob_jonas> my record, out of a total of 4 scientific articles, not counting conference procedings and conference slides (for they usually don't have a full bibliography) is
19:43:27 <wob_jonas> an article with 53 references on 4 pages, plus 11 pages of body, plus a page for abstract and a title page. this is in the preprint, the journal's version has less whitespace around the title I think.
19:44:35 <wob_jonas> I'm too lazy to check the journal final version, but I think it also has close to 53 bibliographic references
19:44:56 <wob_jonas> it's formatted differently so the page numbers are entirely different
19:45:37 <wob_jonas> but it's a journal that I think exists printed, or at least is formatted as if it existed printed, so the formatting is compact with a small page and narrow margins and all that stuff
19:46:40 <wob_jonas> I don't recall, but I think they even do that age old nonsense where they forcibly put the paper author names as initial plus surname format, because THAT would take up too much space in a mathematical paper
19:47:00 <wob_jonas> (this isn't a physics/biology journal with 100+ member teams sending in articles)
19:47:10 <wob_jonas> and might reformat the bibliography too, I dunno
19:47:17 <wob_jonas> some journals are so backwards
19:47:18 <int-e> The argument that actors are more powerful than non-deterministic Turing machines is quite ridiculous to me. (I see no useful difference between a machine that is guaranteed to terminate but can take an arbitrary long time for that, and a machine that terminates with probability 1)
19:47:35 <wob_jonas> I might be mixing it up with another journal
19:48:34 <wob_jonas> int-e: there is probably no computational difference for decision problems (but not for problems that require a random output obviously), except possibly a polynomial overhead, but maths is very far from being able to prove that,
19:49:00 <wob_jonas> it's like a major result that might take quarter as much time or twice as much time as P!=NP from now
19:49:19 <wob_jonas> and that's just a guess
19:50:08 <int-e> "Mathematics self proves its own consistency." -- assuming completeness.
19:50:36 <imode> it's like hilbert, but on meth.
19:50:45 <wob_jonas> "I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao)" => wait what?
19:51:03 <imode> what do you take issue with with that statement.
19:51:11 <wob_jonas> Hofstadter barely wrote any crank mathematics, most of his book is fiction, and the maths part is not perfect but not crank either;
19:51:32 <imode> I regard him as a crank because like Hewitt he fails to produce anything of actual value.
19:51:43 <wob_jonas> and the time cube guy is a crank but I don't think he has any mathematics on his page, though I haven't read the whole page I admit;
19:51:58 <int-e> imode: you should give some credit to being substantially correct
19:51:59 <imode> a post on HN summarized my feelings on the book.
19:52:09 <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
19:52:20 <imode> https://blog.infinitenegativeutility.com/2018/7/why-i-dont-love-godel-escher-bach
19:52:38 <wob_jonas> imode: I'm not saying you should love the book. you can hate it. but it's not crank mathematics.
19:52:43 <wob_jonas> you can hate it for lots of other reasons
19:52:55 <imode> I suggest reading that if you want a synonymous opinion.
19:53:24 <wob_jonas> he might have crank philosophy, and most useless but mostly correct mathematics, and fiction, in the same book
19:53:57 <imode> I classify him as a crank because he doesn't bring anything of merit to the table, and what explanations he tries to give fall short of actually conveying anything useful.
19:54:16 <wob_jonas> if you want crank mathematics, I can give better examples. t'Hooft's physics stuff, Wolfram's physics stuff, both based on bad mathematics and physics
19:54:20 <wob_jonas> or do you not count physics?
19:54:25 <imode> ohoho I count physics.
19:54:30 <imode> wolfram's a nut.
19:54:32 <wob_jonas> imode: yes, he might be a crank, but not crank mathematics
19:54:44 <wob_jonas> imode: he has crank stuff and useless mathematics in the same book
19:54:58 <wob_jonas> and fiction that some of us actually find enjoyable
19:55:03 <wob_jonas> look, let me explain something
19:55:20 <imode> I'm surprised you take such offense.
19:55:52 <wob_jonas> in some universities, a small amount of people graduate but the university people knows that he's dangerous if he gets out in the outer world. this happens most often in medical university, but can happen in maths too.
19:56:03 <imode> it's not going to really change my view on hofstader.
19:56:29 <wob_jonas> in those cases, a good solution is to convince the guy to remain as a professor or researcher in the university or some other uni or research place, and pay him for not doing real world work.
19:56:39 <imode> and yes, I know of the "my supervisor's keeper" clause. ;)
19:57:05 <wob_jonas> the students and professors in the university quickly recognize that he's a crank professor, and take his lectures as a joke.
19:57:09 <Hooloovo0> the time cube guy does lots of math
19:57:24 <Hooloovo0> none of it is logical or makes any sense, but apparently he thought there was a proof in there?
19:57:32 <wob_jonas> that's not dangerous, because the students in the university aren't harmed much by having a useless class the don't attend and get an easy A
19:57:35 <imode> listen, you're just not living in 5D.
19:57:55 <int-e> I think "crank" is the wrong term, which I would like to reserve for people who invent their own crazy theories.
19:58:05 <imode> starting to think so too.
19:58:14 <wob_jonas> on the other hand, if the same person got out in the real world to patients, he would damage the health of many of his patients before the patient catches on that he's a bad doctor. some patient catches on, but some don't, or not quickly enough.
19:58:18 <imode> but it just feels like the right term.
19:58:46 <wob_jonas> this system doesn't catch everyone, and there are still bad doctors out there for various reasons, but some doctors are stopped this way.
19:59:01 <wob_jonas> they're paid from state tuition, like the crank doctor would be payed, so it's all the same.
19:59:26 <imode> so what's the overarching point tho.
19:59:28 <wob_jonas> imode: what's the 5D about? time cube?
19:59:32 <imode> yeah lmao.
19:59:37 <imode> was in response to Hooloovo0.
19:59:51 <wob_jonas> yeah, but I also claimed that he doesn't do maths
19:59:53 <Hooloovo0> http://web.archive.org/web/20070927220333/http://www.lib.hcu.edu.tw/journal/files/CAS/CAS0206.pdf
19:59:53 <wob_jonas> maybe I'm wrong
20:00:06 <Hooloovo0> is a kind of weird read
20:00:13 <wob_jonas> I didn't recognize any of what he did as maths, but maybe I'm not imaginative or haven't read enough crank math
20:00:25 <wob_jonas> it didn't seem to be intended as math to my eyes
20:00:34 <wob_jonas> not even as much as Wolfram's
20:00:44 <int-e> imode: And just to be clear and can totally understand hating his book(s)... I'm not sure I could read GEB these days. I liked it as a late teenager.
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20:01:37 <imode> I guess Hofstader shouldn't be classified as a crank.
20:01:44 <wob_jonas> I think I just saw it as all meaningless statements that are trying to motivate people to do something, that is, politics, although a rather bad attempt at that
20:01:51 <imode> just somebody who really shouldn't be that notable.
20:01:52 <imode> fake celebrity, I guess?
20:02:24 <wob_jonas> when a politician talks about global warming and what he wants to do about it, I don't think he's talking physics. I take it as talking politics, with physics jargon because that's what politicians do if it helps them.
20:03:14 <wob_jonas> my default is that politics talk is mostly meaningless, and I have to leave it to politologists to read everything and figure out what the guy will actually do,
20:04:01 <wob_jonas> and then either blog about that in a meaningful way, without the political talk nonsense, like saying that he believes if this politician is elected, he'll build more nuclear power plants, or whatever
20:04:48 <wob_jonas> and then he blogs about it, or publishes in politology journals if he feels like he needs grants, and tells it to journalists who generally distort the whole thing and tell it on news websites
20:05:06 <wob_jonas> and of course he can be factually wrong about his predictions, even consistently if he's a bad politologist
20:05:33 <imode> I'm gonna be honest, I've only skimmed the time cube guy's page.
20:05:36 <wob_jonas> but so what? my aim isn't to become a better politologist than the ones I can read if I really want to know who to elect or when to leave the country
20:05:58 <wob_jonas> imode: some years ago I read a few pages (it's text with huge font, mind you)
20:06:06 <wob_jonas> (I think I actually zoomed it out, rare with a webpage)
20:06:21 <wob_jonas> there's still a copy linked from wikipedia if you want
20:06:25 <wob_jonas> or an extract in the wisdome
20:06:32 <wob_jonas> `? time cube
20:06:32 <imode> lmao, I've had my fill of crank shit today.
20:06:33 <HackEso> EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools.
20:06:56 <wob_jonas> admittedly, I wrote that, so it could be biased to what I want to imply about him
20:06:59 <imode> I want a shirt that says "Educated Stupid".
20:07:29 <wob_jonas> anyway, he's very bad even as a politician, and I don't think he managed to achieve anything other than making a meme
20:07:33 <shachaf> @quote lambda.cube
20:07:33 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo?
20:08:02 <wob_jonas> I don't think he got any of what he actually asks people to do in that, like killing your teachers or whatever it was
20:08:11 <wob_jonas> no, that wasn't it
20:08:13 <wob_jonas> um
20:08:13 <imode> like I said, you just need to step back into the fifth dimension.
20:08:22 <imode> all will make sense when things stop making sense.
20:09:17 <wob_jonas> uh, there are science fantasy films about the fifth dimension. there's even a really good one: the Phineas and Ferb movie (I'm not sure about its title)
20:09:25 <wob_jonas> I can look up the title if you care
20:09:27 <imode> it was a joke.
20:09:30 <wob_jonas> but you'll find it anyway
20:09:35 <wob_jonas> I know, but since it's a good film
20:09:37 <wob_jonas> only problem is
20:09:54 <wob_jonas> it's a better film if you watch enough of the show first to know the general setting and characters
20:10:06 <wob_jonas> so it's not a film I recommend watching first if you haven't yet watched the show
20:10:21 <wob_jonas> but if you have watched the show, even just like half a season of it, any random half a season, then it's good
20:11:04 <wob_jonas> like, you have to know who all the main characters are and their basic relationships, because in the film there isn't enough introduction and everything changes because of a catastrophe they have to fix
20:11:14 <wob_jonas> and it works MUCH better if you already know the original situation
20:11:31 <int-e> Dear Carl, just adding the modifier "Inconsistency-robust" to the names of the elements of a more or less standard sequent calculus does not make it paraconsistent. In particular, you have enough rules to prove p /\ -p |- q /\ -q.
20:11:33 <wob_jonas> but the TV series is good too, although not everyone is a target audience
20:11:35 * int-e has read enough.
20:11:49 <imode> int-e: that's exactly the conclusion I came to.
20:12:02 <imode> there's nothing of substance..
20:12:45 <wob_jonas> it's a show that doesn't take itself seriously, with not much logical consistency and much more emphasis on the character's motivations, and then just not caring if what they do makes sense even in a fantasy world,
20:13:28 <wob_jonas> sort of like Harry Potter or Star Wars, but much less serious time and much more jokes and whole episodes played for fun, while the character motivations are still consistent (except when they're mind-controlled etc)
20:14:03 <wob_jonas> but if you like those types of media, then I recommen Phineas & Ferb
20:14:32 <wob_jonas> I'm saying this in the wrong place
20:14:46 <wob_jonas> let me quickly copy-paste it to another forum where more people listen
20:15:22 <wob_jonas> actually, I should only copy it and make a blog post from it to its blog
20:15:35 <wob_jonas> some day
20:18:16 <int-e> imode: Actually I might still enjoy GEB. I just have to skip the formal parts :P
20:18:52 <int-e> The perfect record player plot was cute.
20:19:04 <imode> int-e: the problem is I have an implicit assumption going in: that all the romance talk is going to lead up to an eventual climax: some actual fucking.
20:19:10 <shachaf> int-e: Was it?
20:19:23 <int-e> shachaf: it ... resonated with me.
20:19:26 <shachaf> What about a record player that has two disassembly components, where each one can disassemble the other one?
20:19:38 <wob_jonas> I don't think I'll read the GEB review, sorry. I've read it, I like it, and since I'm a mathematician I think I did realize that the mathematics part doesn't add anything I didn't know from better sources, and the DNA stuff was pure useless nonsense.
20:19:40 <shachaf> I felt like there were all sorts of reasonable objections that weren't raised.
20:19:54 <imode> hofstader just kinda tells you the shit he's gonna do you, and then dines-and-dashes.
20:20:29 <wob_jonas> imode: there is a climax. it's not fucking, and it's not anything you learn about science. it's a climax in the fiction parts, and a decent one at that.
20:20:38 <imode> shachaf: thank you. the point of an analogy is to draw direct comparisons as a gateway to knowledge.
20:20:48 <wob_jonas> not, like, what you get from your favourite fiction author, but still a decent one.
20:20:53 <int-e> `? quine
20:20:54 <HackEso> ​`? quine
20:21:02 <shachaf> `quote LAMBDA
20:21:02 <HackEso> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) <monqy> rest in peace lambdabot???? <ais523> monqy: it'll probably be back later <monqy> nap in peace \ 494) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...
20:21:06 <imode> wob_jonas: if I wanted fiction I'd read fiction, not something masking itself as nonfiction.
20:21:07 <shachaf> hm
20:21:44 <wob_jonas> if you read it with the expectation that it will be like Smullyan's books, that teach you some actual mathematics in the climax, then it's a flop
20:21:49 <wob_jonas> but that shouldn't be your expectation
20:22:06 <imode> what should be my expectation of a book that tells me it's about the real world.
20:22:11 <wob_jonas> he's not Smullyan, he's just a long-time friend
20:22:25 <int-e> imode: well, obviously it depends
20:22:26 <wob_jonas> by the way RIP Smullyan, I'll be missing you
20:22:48 <imode> like, you can defend this all you want, it's not going to change the fact that it shouldn't be held up on a pedestal like it currently is.
20:23:00 <wob_jonas> imode: come on, half of it was dialogs that are obviously fantastic fiction. why'd you read it as non-fiction? was it the Smullyan expectation?
20:23:17 <wob_jonas> did you seriously expect that there's anyone else who's as good as Smullyan in the exact same genre?
20:23:31 <wob_jonas> didn't Smullyan's, you know, reputation get to you?
20:23:34 <imode> no, it's that dialogues are intended to expound on something.
20:23:40 <wob_jonas> if you read it with that expectation, I'm sorry
20:23:47 <wob_jonas> then I can understand you didn't like it
20:24:05 <imode> they're used as an investigative tool. and I don't feel Hofstader gave me any sort of conclusion.
20:24:10 <wob_jonas> imode: no, they were fun. that's how I read most fiction books too. it's rare that I can learn something from them.
20:24:12 <imode> other than talking lavishly about... a lot of nothing.
20:24:23 <imode> listen, you're trying to defend a book you like, I get that.
20:24:38 <imode> you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao.
20:24:51 <imode> sorry if you took offense to what I've been saying.
20:25:06 <wob_jonas> there's even clearly fiction books that do have a message (or Aesop if you want) but the message is one I don't like, yet I read the fiction book and actually enjoyed it, because I enjoyed the style and characters and decent writing, and ignored the message
20:26:39 <imode> my final thoughts are that you can't take a book parading itself as nonfiction and judge it as a work of fiction in order to praise what you think are good aspects about it in order to avoid negative judgements.
20:26:51 <imode> on that, afk.
20:27:00 <wob_jonas> the specific book that was most like that is Julie Bertagna, <i>Exodus</i>
20:28:02 <wob_jonas> "you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao" => ok, if you don't want to talk about it, I can stop. but sometimes, when I talk on the internet with people I actually know about works that one of us enjoyed more than the other,
20:28:36 <wob_jonas> and we tell what we liked and what we didn't, the end result is that I get to enjoy the work better, especially if I then re-read or rewatch the same work with the conversation in mind.
20:28:51 <wob_jonas> it doesn't always work, because sometimes the work still doesn't work for me (sorry for the pun)
20:29:16 <wob_jonas> I do this a lot for TV series episodes of My Little Pony: FIM, but I think it works for other fiction too, which is why I'm trying
20:29:22 <wob_jonas> if you don't want to listen, then I can stop
20:29:36 <wob_jonas> imode: ?
20:30:32 <wob_jonas> and I think it paraded itself as pop nonfiction at worst, and I already knew not to expect much from pop nonfiction by then,
20:31:18 <wob_jonas> because when I was young, I read a lot of children's pop nonfiction books, and I liked them, but when I grew up and learned about the world, I realized that most of those pop nonfiction books were actually really bad, if you take them at face value
20:31:36 <wob_jonas> most primary school textbooks also are, by the way
20:31:45 <wob_jonas> for similar reasons
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21:08:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh you’ve watched P & F too
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21:08:57 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: most of it
21:09:03 <wob_jonas> not all episodes
21:09:12 <wob_jonas> I'm missing some mostly from the later seasons
21:09:30 <wob_jonas> but there are a lot of good episodes I've watched three or more times
21:10:15 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: what does "too" mean? have you watched P & F? or is it that I watched practically all MLP and most of P & F too?
21:16:36 <arseniiv> BTW have anybody watched my vid?
21:18:47 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: have you watched P & F? => this one
21:22:35 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I haven't seen the link
21:22:40 <wob_jonas> can you please post the link again?
21:22:44 <arseniiv> also on ways of treating art: I had gained much when I started not to skip parts that seem boring. With good authors, it really pays later, I’d come to thing
21:23:05 <wob_jonas> I appreciate you training handwriting by the way. we need more online lectures on that.
21:23:10 <arseniiv> absoutely can, here it is: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c
21:23:37 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I know. I love typography and calligraphy, both restricted to the recent European subset
21:23:44 <arseniiv> thank you, but you better watch it first, I’m afraid it’s too messy
21:24:19 <wob_jonas> sure, I'm thanking the attempt in first place. if you fail, it might still push others to make a better video if I tell them that this is the best you could get.
21:25:28 <wob_jonas> let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Illustrations_to_J%C3%A1nos_Arany%27s_ballads_by_Mih%C3%A1ly_Zichy
21:25:55 <wob_jonas> (you can also buy it on dead tree if you're in Hungary)
21:26:28 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh, I have a friend who for some time does calligraphy as a hobby, it’s interesting, and he even promised to write a page of text from Summa Logicae somewhere in the future :)
21:26:55 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end?
21:27:19 <wob_jonas> Summa Logicae => in what language is that?
21:28:06 <wob_jonas> I am not interested in learning calligraphy myself anymore, I am more interested in doing typography myself, it's just that I appreciate both
21:28:20 <wob_jonas> I just want to learn the basics of handwriting in Russian for the reasons I had told you
21:28:42 <wob_jonas> I know the basics of Hungarian handwriting
21:29:27 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály => ah, thanks! Really appeals to the eyes, and I haven’t seen this style before. I’ll show these to my friend
21:29:45 <arseniiv> I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end? => as you wish
21:30:31 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online
21:30:48 <wob_jonas> I don't know of any other pieces of calligraphy he's done available online though.
21:30:50 <arseniiv> in what language is that? => latin, it’s by William [of] Ockham
21:31:01 <wob_jonas> ok
21:33:23 <wob_jonas> I'd really have liked if he added "A hamis tanú" and "A kép-mutogató" to that series, but alas, he didn't, and he's dead since 1906.
21:33:35 <arseniiv> is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online => I didn’t concentrated on drawings yet, but yes they at least match the handwriting
21:34:50 <wob_jonas> The best we could get is to commission a really good painter-forger and a really good calligrapher-forger to make those imitating his style, but such a comission would cost more than a car in my estimate, and I don't think there'd be enough backers on a crowdforging site and I don't have the money myself, so I haven't even tried to ask a price quot
21:34:50 <wob_jonas> e.
21:36:10 <wob_jonas> they at least match the handwriting => yes, it's by the same hand, and from the same volumes composed together. I think he actually drew the letters overlapping the images on the original.
21:37:26 <wob_jonas> and I think the original 1989 volume wasn't even made with the easy modern photographic technique that can copy basically any drawing in high fidelity, he had to do it the hard way, with whatever the one of the other two methods were for this than etching back then (it's not etching)
21:38:00 <arseniiv> oh
21:38:35 <wob_jonas> the modern reprint, of course, uses digital photography and digital printing, but since it's in a high enough quality (you can see the printed dot pattern if you zoom in, I scanned in 600 dpi to avoid most of the Moiré), I don't mind
21:39:59 <wob_jonas> I could get on-site access to the original edition in libraries, and in fact had seen two of the four volumes earlier, but it would be hard and expensive to get them to photograph it (it's an old book so libraries won't scan, they'll only photograph),
21:41:04 <wob_jonas> I chose the cheap solution and bought a throwaway copy of the reprint, I destroyed it with my heart bleading on destroying a copy of such a beautiful book while I cut open the binding and actually cut into many pages during.
21:41:31 <arseniiv> (the last couple of minutes I think I think shallowly. You tell interesting things and I can’t properly respond to them)
21:41:37 <wob_jonas> In retrospect, most of that wouldn't have been necessary, I would only have had to remove the outer hard cover to be able to scan, but I didn't realize that back then.
21:41:59 <wob_jonas> Would have destroyed the book anyway, so it doesn't matter much in the end.
21:42:31 <arseniiv> this is
21:42:45 <wob_jonas> It's not entirely destroyed, since that would have made scanning impossible, all the single pages are still intact, so I can read it carefully at home.
21:43:07 <wob_jonas> And if that weren't so, I could buy a new copy. The reprint is cheap (around 6000 HUF) for what it's worth.
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21:43:45 <wob_jonas> But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise.
21:43:54 <arseniiv> (I can’t write properly, sorry)
21:44:06 <arseniiv> But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise. => totally agree
21:44:23 <wob_jonas> I hope some of them will buy a copy of the reprint so they have a print copy, thus supporting the publisher to whom I owe a big thanks for reprinting this.
21:44:52 <arseniiv> maybe I should scan something thin and softcover if I find out it’s rare and interesting
21:45:05 <wob_jonas> The reprint is from 2016, so they actually did the expensive digitizing process in a much more professional way then I could have payed for. I would not have done that.
21:45:47 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I have suggestions. Where do you live?
21:46:56 <wob_jonas> There are two Jules Verne books with beautiful illustrations by Jules-Descartes Férat (1829–1906) engraved by Charles Barbant (1844—1922)
21:47:37 <wob_jonas> They're in public domain and there are reprint version available, at least in Hungary, usually together with the bad old public domain translations.
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21:48:13 <wob_jonas> There are low resolution scans of them online already, but no good high res ones.
21:48:23 <wob_jonas> I'm working on it, but if you want to speed it up, I'd appreciate it.
21:48:46 <wob_jonas> The books aren't technically thin, but if you only scan the etchings, not the text, then it's not many pages.
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21:49:08 <wob_jonas> You'll need a decent scanner. I used a copy shop one, which isn't perfect, but is cheap.
21:49:41 <wob_jonas> There's a professional service for this, but I don't want to cough the money up for that yet, except for a few very valuable family photos that they can scan better than I could.
21:50:07 <wob_jonas> (I'm also scanning family photos for my family, not for publishing. Different project, but can do with same trip sometimes.)
21:51:11 <wob_jonas> There's no need to scan the text of any Verne, most public domain translations and all originals are already not only scanned but digitized to text and proofread and published.
21:51:29 <wob_jonas> The exception were if any happened to go out of copyright around now, but I don't know of any such translation.
21:52:09 <arseniiv> hm, I didn’t think that far. I’m in Russia in a more or less big city, and for these books it’s possible to be in the library somewhere near (though I doubt it, maybe in Moscow or St. Petersburg, I’m far from these), but I can’t say I’m into libraries and I had never scanned a book
21:52:39 <wob_jonas> If you make anything publishable and in public domain, please either publish to Wikimedia Commons, or ping me or them after you publish so I can upload it to there.
21:52:53 <wob_jonas> I can help in the uploading and metadata on Commons if you want.
21:53:16 <wob_jonas> Also, if you can, ping me in advance if you do it with this specific case, so we don't do redundant work.
21:53:53 <wob_jonas> But only do this if it actually causes you pleasure. Nobody will compensate you by money for this, unless you somehow solve that yourself.
21:54:04 <wob_jonas> And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it.
21:54:09 <wob_jonas> Not every art is your style.
21:54:36 <wob_jonas> This one is just my favourite etcher.
21:55:19 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: okay! I doubt I could help with this case, but thanks for both offers
21:55:32 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it. => agree
21:56:27 <wob_jonas> Commons already has a copy of all the low res scans by http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , a site that honors Jules Verne's books *original* illustrations (rather than the crap some publishers put in in 2050 to 2000, when the photographing tech wasn't yet cheap or possible at all, or the original drawing wasn't yet out of copyright, and they couldn't
21:56:27 <wob_jonas> get their hands on the original etch master plates.
21:56:57 <wob_jonas> I think the old translations around 1900 actually borrowed the original plates of etching, which is real impressive.
21:57:20 <wob_jonas> By the way, some of them, including the one I already published, uses the original plates but messed up the printing process, so the drawings come out too dark and some details are invisible.
21:58:00 <wob_jonas> I have scans of half of the drawings of this same book (Indes Noires) from another edition (the Szegő György translation) waiting on my hard drive to edit and publish.
21:58:38 <wob_jonas> Also, I should really make more backups of my hard disk, although I think I have a single backup of those scans.
21:59:02 <wob_jonas> Ok, I should finish ranting and watch that video like I promised.
21:59:09 <arseniiv> :)
21:59:56 <wob_jonas> But really, look at http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , you might find an illustrator and etcher whose style you prefer over Jules-Descartes Férat and Charles Barbant
22:00:05 <wob_jonas> I can't claim that they're objectively the best
22:00:19 <arseniiv> it’s very nice to read your “ranting”, I should say
22:00:43 <wob_jonas> Yes, but I never get to watch the video. It's already past midnight and I should work tomorrow and I'm already on like -4 hours sleep.
22:00:46 <wob_jonas> maybe -6 hours.
22:01:02 <arseniiv> maybe you expect too much of silly me, though :D
22:01:05 <wob_jonas> And I wanted to do other things today too, but don't we always?
22:01:17 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I want to give feedback.
22:01:21 <wob_jonas> Repeat my old question:
22:01:42 <wob_jonas> I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end?
22:01:58 <arseniiv> as I said, as you wish :)
22:02:16 <wob_jonas> Is there supposed to be any sound?
22:02:26 <arseniiv> no
22:03:25 <arseniiv> also, it’s almost half a hour, and I’m personally going to sleep, so you could technically watch it tomorrow, I absolutely don’t mind
22:04:14 <arseniiv> no need to hurry
22:04:27 <wob_jonas> you can logread
22:04:32 <wob_jonas> I'm riled up now
22:04:34 <arseniiv> and good night!
22:04:42 <arseniiv> yeah, I’ll definitely read
22:04:55 <wob_jonas> "privet!" I think. I'm not sure that's a p, but a p would make sense.
22:05:06 <arseniiv> correct
22:05:15 <arseniiv> well, see you later
22:05:42 <wob_jonas> (I have to learn to read this too, if I want to write it for myself.)
22:08:26 <wob_jonas> "Aplê..." let me get those drawings from yesterday
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22:09:59 <wob_jonas> that looks more like a "p" though. what's the deal with the "p" in "privet!"?
22:11:58 <int-e> what do you mean by "what's the deal" with the "п" in "привет!"?
22:12:09 <wob_jonas> ah, "Aplêičau"
22:12:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out
22:12:51 <wob_jonas> so I think there's something I don't understand there.
22:13:00 <wob_jonas> It doesn't look like a "P" either.
22:13:13 <int-e> (I would think it's derived from π not p)
22:13:27 <wob_jonas> sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily
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22:13:57 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but there's a normal shaped p right in "Aplêičau" on the next slide
22:13:58 <int-e> same for the russian Р vs grrek Ρ.
22:14:07 <int-e> *greek
22:14:22 * int-e isn't going to watch any video now.
22:14:25 <wob_jonas> yes yes, I know. The russian r looks somewhat like the latin p. I know that.
22:15:32 <wob_jonas> The context is, I know the russian alphabet, I just want to learn how to handwrite it, because it annoys me that I can't jot down russian names in notes, and I'm using ISO-9 transcription handwritten instead, which works but hurts me inside.
22:16:02 <wob_jonas> And arseniiv volunteered to teach the handwriting he learned, because he agreed there are no good enough tutorials on the internet.
22:16:24 <wob_jonas> I don't expect his video to be perfect, but he won't just leave a bad letter in there.
22:16:44 <wob_jonas> He said he edits the video, so he would have replaced any obviously bad parts, so I refuse that explanation.
22:17:21 <wob_jonas> Ah no, it's "Aplêjčau", you write the brevis after the rest, I paused too soon. That even sounds more like a word.
22:17:49 <wob_jonas> int-e: does that make sense?
22:18:31 <int-e> the "cursive" column from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_alphabet matches what I remember.\
22:18:47 <int-e> I have no clue what "Aplêjčau" is.
22:19:00 <wob_jonas> int-e: ar' gave better links yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B2%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE/ https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg
22:19:26 <wob_jonas> both are images in HTML
22:19:30 <wob_jonas> or pure images
22:19:32 <wob_jonas> I dunno
22:19:33 <wob_jonas> not videos
22:19:43 <wob_jonas> my guess is Appalachian mountains, in America
22:19:52 <wob_jonas> but that's just a guess, I didn't check a dictionary
22:19:57 <wob_jonas> I don't care
22:20:01 <int-e> STUPID Firefox... when I make a selection in my terminal, please follow X standards and forget your own selection so that I can actually paste what I marked?!?!
22:20:39 <wob_jonas> (Referencing the drawings for the "B" word too.)
22:21:52 <wob_jonas> "Betel'gejze" I think
22:22:31 <wob_jonas> nice mousewriting, I couldn't draw such a continuous line with a mouse
22:22:51 <wob_jonas> or very nice video editing to hide the jumps
22:24:55 <wob_jonas> "Veneciâ"
22:26:14 <wob_jonas> "Gimalai" more mountains, although this one has a strange spelling, ending in "ai"
22:27:07 <wob_jonas> "Daniâ"
22:28:26 <wob_jonas> "Enisej" the river in Russia, right?
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22:30:20 <Sgeo_> shachaf, there will be no olist this past Monday, but there will be one earlier today.
22:31:22 <wob_jonas> "Ëtunžejt" and you write the diaresis and the brevis in the Right^{TM} order, not the French order. good. they haven't infected your education with that nonsense yet.
22:32:40 <wob_jonas> "Ženeva"
22:33:07 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ap_Lei_Chau is Аплєйчау
22:33:13 * int-e shrugs
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22:33:50 <wob_jonas> int-e: ok
22:34:50 <wob_jonas> "Zanzibar", we're at the capital letters that are hard to write now.
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22:35:43 <wob_jonas> (I don't mean "I" of course. that's an easy one.)
22:36:23 <wob_jonas> "Iguasu" perhaps?
22:37:01 <wob_jonas> (well, for me that is, because it's the same as a latin "U" would be in this style)
22:40:12 <wob_jonas> "Jiglava" it looks like
22:40:28 <wob_jonas> but I could be confusing letters of course
22:41:26 <wob_jonas> another hard letter. "Kël'n"
22:43:24 <wob_jonas> another hard one (it looks easy, but I'm sure it's hard to write in a way that I can read it unambiguously too) "Labraziâ" wait, you lifted your pen during that "r" I think
22:43:44 <wob_jonas> we'll see later in the video if that's how "r" is supposed to work, I guess
22:45:56 <wob_jonas> "Merkurij" and I think this time you didn't lift your pen during either "r", but you did during "k", which looks more reasonable. Also, that's a scary example name to me.
22:46:44 <wob_jonas> ah yes. the lower case "n" does look hard, good thing you wrote it three times here.
22:47:17 <wob_jonas> "Nil" three letters? I feel shortcharged for my no money :-)
22:48:07 <wob_jonas> Is the first lowercase "o" the final form?
22:49:18 <wob_jonas> if so, that's interesting, in Hungarian if I write proper cursive, I always use the second form for a top connection or final, and an entirely different form of "o" for the low connection
22:49:47 <wob_jonas> so not even "o" is the same in russian and latin? no, I can't believe that. it's probably just different in different styles of cursive.
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22:50:42 <wob_jonas> "Oblako Oorta"
22:51:05 <wob_jonas> (placenames can be strange)
22:51:31 <wob_jonas> "Palau" easy
22:51:41 <wob_jonas> well, easy because your mousewriting is really good
22:52:31 <wob_jonas> I won't be able to read a word of my own handwriting at first, I think, so there's a cost for the ideal
22:53:01 <wob_jonas> I might have to do multiple tries of the same word each time and an ISO-9 transcription too so I can read it back
22:53:20 <wob_jonas> which is ugly, but a step towards the goal I'll never reach
22:53:43 <wob_jonas> since I intend to spend my practice time on cubing, not russian writing
22:53:47 <wob_jonas> most of it at least
22:55:06 <wob_jonas> "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one
22:56:13 <wob_jonas> "Salnce" I think.
22:56:25 <wob_jonas> Ok, I'll stop the video here and continue to watch the rest some other time
22:56:28 <wob_jonas> because it's too late
22:56:35 <wob_jonas> but it's nice so far
22:57:02 <wob_jonas> I'll probably have to rewatch it too after I watch the whole thing, to notice more stuff about the letters
22:57:52 <wob_jonas> thank you very much so far, aarseniv (and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e)
22:58:57 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rodinia_reconstruction.jpg
22:59:46 <wob_jonas> in case you can't read ISO-9, which is quite possible since you need that stuff to find books or get information about books in library catalogs in Hungary and many other countries where library catalogs use latin letter transcriptions for literally everything
23:00:48 <wob_jonas> it's a bit strange, because in Hungary, probably more people could read the printed cyrillic than the ISO-9 transcription, but perhaps it's a tradition from when they don't have russian typewriters for library catalog slips
23:01:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: not sure whether this is directed at me, but the ISO-9 is really confusing to me
23:01:24 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, that's directed at aarseniv mostly
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23:02:59 <wob_jonas> so, aarseniv (but int-e too if you care), if you can't read ISO-9, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9 has a full table comprising the cyrillic letters in most languages that use them, and
23:04:35 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian#Transliteration_table has a table for Russian alphabet only (plus obsolate letters in bottom rows), look at the column with heading "ISO9:1995; GOST 2002(A)"
23:04:47 <wob_jonas> you want this second one for the Russian I type
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> note that if "Я" is transliterated anything but "Â" then you're looking at the wrong column. That one is very important for the library catalogs, and appears in my transcripts too obviously
23:07:11 <wob_jonas> It is good that libraries use this sane system, because the ones that use "Ja" for that and "j" and "a" for other letters are a bit annoying to say the least, and so are the ones that use "ya" and "y" and "a" respectively
23:08:20 <wob_jonas> Except obviously there have to be standards for printing these passports that always have your name in ascii letters, but that's not what a library catalog transcription aims for
23:12:40 <wob_jonas> Stupid anecdote: there are also cyrillization systems, to transcribe latin to a local alphabet. When I was in Macedonia, back before they were full EU members so they had a bit stricter rules for visitors, I changed cash from I don't know what currency to the local currency.
23:14:27 <wob_jonas> The cash converting agent was required to give me a printed receipt that includes my name as it appears in the passport. My name has a Hungarian "zs", which he transcribed to macedonian as "ЗС", which was probably by the transcription rules he used, but looked riddiculous to me.
23:14:48 <wob_jonas> It obviously doesn't matter what he writes to the receipt, which is why I said it was a stupid anecdote.
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23:15:31 <wob_jonas> ISO-9 is Russian-centric, so Russian transcribed with it actually looks relatively good, but most other languages transcribed with ISO-9 look horrible.
23:16:25 <wob_jonas> Luckily in library book catalogs in *Hungary*, it is much more common to find Russian names or titles than names or titles from other languages, because of the effects of the Soviet Union suppressing a lot of local languages,
23:17:57 <wob_jonas> Very rarely you can find books in Ukranian or Croatian or Belarussian, with title presumably in those languages, but I don't look at the title much so it doesn't matter. I have yet to see a Macedonian one.
23:18:46 <wob_jonas> I think I've also seen ones marked as Serbo-Croatian.
23:19:16 <wob_jonas> I think Serbian is usually not transcribed by ISO-9, but by serbian latin, which happen to coincide in all except one letter the serbian "j"
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23:19:44 <wob_jonas> um no, they don't coincide of course
23:19:55 <wob_jonas> but they never clash other than at the serbian "j"
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23:20:43 <wob_jonas> but the clash is only a theoretical problem, and not being able to automatically decide which words are transcriptions from what language is a much more serious theoretical problem
23:20:46 <wob_jonas> good night now
23:21:27 <wob_jonas> (or, technically, from which group of languages using the same transcription system, including identity for all latin letter languages as the transcription system)
23:22:14 <wob_jonas> And if Chinese or Japanese transcription is involved, you're in even more trouble
23:22:32 <wob_jonas> You can't even automatically untranscribe that, although there are pretty good approximation algorithms now
23:24:23 <wob_jonas> Apart from transcribing between different countries of kanji, I have heard of only two transcription systems that promise to transcribe most Japanese texts to a limited alphabet,
23:25:34 <wob_jonas> and both are systems for extended Japanese braille methods for transcribing kanji, and one I've only seen as vague descriptions, for the other I've seen somewhat extended descriptions (I never sought a full list) and it seems nicely done except that it's REALLY fucking crowded with practically zero redundancy
23:26:36 <wob_jonas> It translates to backwards 8-point braille, where the two extra dots are *above* the normal six dots, which I don't think is used anywhere other than this one system, and doesn't even have a Unicode encoding.
23:27:19 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_kanji by the way
23:27:53 <wob_jonas> Uses the extra upper two dots only to mark kanji, with the upper left set at the first cell that encodes a kanji and the upper right set for the last cell.
23:28:48 <wob_jonas> Each kanji has at most one encoding (luckily) which can be one cell, two cells, three cells, I don't know the upper limit, tries to be somewhat mnemonic, but the one and two cell spaces are REALLY crowded, giving no redundancy in kanji
23:31:46 <wob_jonas> and normal braille kanji is already so crowded that literally all 64 possible six-point cells are used to mean something, and even this way it needs extra cells to mark dakuten and switches to and from katakana and to arabic digits and to romaji
23:32:08 <wob_jonas> and there's some even more horrible hacks that I think I erased from my memory
23:32:47 <wob_jonas> yet this system, if it actually lives up to its promises, would be a very good base for a faithful transcription system of Japanese to latin script (with punctuations)
23:33:06 <wob_jonas> but as far as I know, there is no such transcription system
23:33:53 <wob_jonas> it could also be used as base for a transcription system from Japanese to a funny script that's made of kana-only plus overbars for indicating kana that stand for kanji, plus some punctuation
23:34:55 <wob_jonas> the kana part and simple japanese punctuation would be identity-transformed, and the kanji transcription could be typed on a keyboard or transmitted through morse code or signal flags or teletype or
23:36:00 <wob_jonas> with an automatic transcription, make it easier for European people to read digital Japanese texts with kanji or handwrite them without having to learn the calligraphy, although that one is probably so taboo that nobody would attempt to popularize it
23:36:07 <wob_jonas> well, not in this century at least
23:36:14 <wob_jonas> still, I can dream, right?
23:37:15 <wob_jonas> I mean, transcribing kanji for the blind is a noble goal, but for all the rest they would never use such a system now
23:37:38 <wob_jonas> perhaps in a steampunk level technology fantasy world they would have developped such a system
23:38:36 <wob_jonas> because no teletypes could handle kanji directly, but the teletype operator can look up kanji in a table (that he eventually learns by heart since it's mnemonic) and transmit text with kanji faithfully, which is better than writing all telex messages with kana only
23:39:00 <wob_jonas> oh well, I said good night like a long time ago
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2018-08-08
00:07:13 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57270 * A * (+81) Created page with "''Register Automaton'' is a simple esolang which only has 1 instruction: @x=y?Lx"
00:12:16 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57271&oldid=57270 * A * (+387)
00:12:40 <esowiki> [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57272&oldid=57246 * A * (+25)
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00:30:44 <boily> @metar CYUL
00:30:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 080000Z 24007KT 15SM FEW040 FEW075 BKN250 26/20 A2986 RMK CF1AC1CI5 CF TR AC TR SLP113 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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02:05:34 <izabera> jfc that's a wall of text
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03:51:00 <Sgeo> "If you never use a UNIX system, why should you care? The answer is because ActiveX is intended to be cross-platform, which means that someone running a Web browser under the Sun Solaris system (a UNIX variant) might be browsing pages you have designed.
03:53:44 <Sgeo> "If you want to use ActiveX extensively (and who wouldn't?), you need to use an ActiveX-enabled browser, and you need to know that your users will have ActiveX-enabled browsers. At the moment, your chioces are either Microsft Internet Explorer 3.x (Explorer 2.x has limited support for more advanced ActiveX components) or Netscape Navigator plus the ActiveX plug-in from NCompass Labs. Power Mac users need a similar plug-in which is available
03:53:45 <Sgeo> from the the beta of the ActiveX SDK."
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04:17:23 <shachaf> Sgeo: But what about the rest of the week?
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04:49:58 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> [...] in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation. <-- i'm complaining about the english. i do check the native ones when that isn't good enough. i'm not usually on the french, since i'm not fluent in it.
04:49:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:50:07 <oerjan> that was a bit long.
04:51:00 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries? <-- i'm not sure if i've ever looked up a lithuanian word.
04:51:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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05:05:36 <esowiki> [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57273&oldid=23179 * A * (+143)
05:05:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57274&oldid=57273 * A * (+1)
05:27:59 <esowiki> [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57275&oldid=57271 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational Class */ no it's not
05:37:16 <oerjan> `addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
05:37:17 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
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05:49:30 <oerjan> <int-e> Dear Carl [...] <-- i was momentarily confused at seeing this just after the phineas and ferb mention...
05:52:25 <Hooloovo0> you read the whole thing? impressive
05:53:13 <oerjan> i'm only halfway through the logs AAAAAAAAA
05:53:39 <oerjan> it's not MtG discussion so my instinct to skip it doesn't trigger enough
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05:58:45 <shachaf> oerjan skips MtG discussions?!
05:58:58 <shachaf> but that's what this channel is all about
05:59:04 * oerjan grins evilly
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06:49:59 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57276&oldid=57267 * DMC * (-4) /* Grawlix */
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09:48:54 <FireFly> how evil
09:51:28 <shachaf> `? oerjan
09:51:29 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
09:51:55 <shachaf> `swrjan s/loud hero/evil grinch/
09:51:57 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
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09:52:29 <shachaf> now we can ask: what is grinch mean time?
09:52:53 <Taneb> shachaf: grinch mean time is any time when the grinch is mean, i.e. all the time, especially around Christmas
09:54:11 <shachaf> what about after the grinch's heart grows
09:55:17 <shachaf> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140108170556.htm
09:55:38 <shachaf> perhaps the grinch was mean because of an improper heart transplant?
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12:46:25 <esowiki> [[Noida]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57277&oldid=57265 * Saka * (+15)
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12:51:19 <arseniiv> I’ve accidentally permanently deleted all notes from phone’s unsynced Google Keep :′(
12:52:00 <arseniiv> a piece of my soul is lost
12:54:59 <int-e> . o O ( It's an opportunity: lots of room for personal growth. )
13:08:33 <esowiki> [[OFC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57278 * A * (+320) Created page with "''One Function Code'' is a one-instruction turing-tarpit. Its only command is: [x]=content of register x if(r,a,b) If[#r]==0,goto line a.Else,flip[#r] and goto line b. ==Co..."
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13:28:58 <arseniiv> int-e: maybe maybe
13:29:35 <arseniiv> I want to hope I’ll remember all worthy things that were there when it will be needed
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13:29:43 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "i'm complaining about the english [wiktionary]. i do check the native ones when that isn't good enough. i'm not usually on the french, since i'm not fluent in it." => yes, but your problem was the find the stress accenting for eg. russian or italian words. you don't need to read the meanings. french wiktionary is worth a check because it
13:29:44 <wob_jonas> 's the best maintained.
13:30:31 <wob_jonas> `quote 1326
13:30:32 <HackEso> 1326) <wob_jonas> and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter
13:30:34 <wob_jonas> I'm famous again
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13:31:04 <arseniiv> how the quotes are managed?
13:31:29 <arseniiv> `quote
13:31:29 <HackEso> 600) <twice11> Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. <twice11> You measure a third point if you need an error estimate.
13:31:38 <arseniiv> `quote 1
13:31:39 <HackEso> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
13:31:43 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: hackeso scripts to query or add or delete quotes, inherited from hackeso. backed in a simple text file
13:31:54 <arseniiv> `quote 0
13:31:55 <HackEso> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 20) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): <ehird> So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ 30) <lacota> I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary \ 34) <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? \ 40) <oklopol> GregorR: are you talking about eh
13:31:56 <wob_jonas> one quote per line in text file
13:32:03 <wob_jonas> just `quote gives you a random quote
13:32:18 <arseniiv> ah so they are added manually after all
13:32:20 <wob_jonas> otherwise it gives a random searching the term you give as argument to `quote
13:32:22 <wob_jonas> yes
13:32:36 <wob_jonas> they are also transferred to that wisdom PDF file I think, occasionally
13:32:39 <arseniiv> who and when added 1326?
13:32:42 <wob_jonas> `? pdf
13:32:43 <HackEso> PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
13:33:19 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: oerjan today. you can see from channel log or the mercurial log of the quote file in hackeso
13:33:21 <int-e> `? portability
13:33:22 <HackEso> portability? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:33:26 <arseniiv> ah
13:33:37 <arseniiv> I’ve yet to read logs
13:33:45 <wob_jonas> `? '
13:33:46 <HackEso> ​'? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:33:48 <wob_jonas> `? "
13:33:49 <HackEso> ​"? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:33:51 <wob_jonas> `?
13:33:52 <HackEso> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:33:53 <wob_jonas> `'
13:33:54 <HackEso> 788) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
13:33:55 <wob_jonas> `"
13:33:56 <HackEso> 434) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. \ 747) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse.
13:33:57 <wob_jonas> `q
13:33:58 <HackEso> 448) <Phantom_Hoover> What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock.
13:34:06 <wob_jonas> the double quote gives you two quotes
13:34:12 <int-e> . o O ( A "portable" device is one that weighs 50kg or less, and fits into a suitcase. )
13:34:28 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, portable computers were originally like that.
13:35:04 <arseniiv> the double quote gives you two quotes => surprisingly logical
13:35:30 <arseniiv> `? deportable
13:35:31 <HackEso> deportable? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:35:46 <wob_jonas> int-e: except for dictionaries, where a dictionary under a kilogram is a portable one, a dictionary that fits in your pocket is a pocket one, a dictionary that weighs between a kilogram and five and has at most two volumes is a home dictionary, and a multi-volume one is a comprehensive dictionary
13:36:10 <wob_jonas> there are dictionaries which exist in pocket, portable, and home editions, the smaller ones containing a selection of words from the larger ones
13:36:40 <wob_jonas> there are very few comprehensive dictionaries per language, including the OED and the "A magyar nyelv értelmező szótára"
13:37:32 <wob_jonas> I was just writing about this in comments at http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2005-08.html%23d.2005-08-07.1066
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13:43:29 <arseniiv> some reactions:
13:44:46 <arseniiv> in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out => yes, I had actually cut many fragments out, but I haven’t thought of doing a double take for this one for some reason
13:46:23 <arseniiv> that I had meant yesterday as “messy” — I wasn’t perfectionist enough
13:47:24 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily => np, it’s readable
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13:49:51 <arseniiv> I wasn’t perfectionist enough => sorry for that :)
13:50:27 <arseniiv> there’s a room for v2 though
13:54:02 <fizzie> `whoq 1326
13:54:07 <HackEso> ​<oerjan> addquote <wob_jonas> and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter
13:54:08 <fizzie> (Unfortunately it won't work for any quote that got added before the most recent mass-`revert.)
13:54:32 <int-e> `? nitia
13:54:34 <HackEso> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
13:54:55 <int-e> `whoq 1
13:54:58 <HackEso> ​<elliott> revert
13:55:05 <int-e> right.
13:57:46 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: "Ëtunžejt" => actually I meant Ётунхейм Jötunheimr
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13:59:26 <arseniiv> or very nice video editing to hide the jumps => there’s actually only a few cuts overall where I had written something horribly wrong
13:59:41 <Taneb> arseniiv: what are you making?
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13:59:59 <arseniiv> but if my hand wasn’t sticking to the desk, the writing would be even better
14:01:03 <arseniiv> Taneb: I had made a screencast on Russian cursive as it is taught to children in my time and (for all I see) now
14:01:42 <arseniiv> ( https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c )
14:02:12 <Taneb> Right! Not something I'm particularly interested in myself, I'm afraid, but good for you for making it!
14:02:29 <Taneb> I might check it out when I get home this evening
14:03:40 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: "Labraziâ" => в should be here (Лавразия, Laurasia)
14:04:32 <arseniiv> Also, that's a scary example name to me. => why Mercury is scary?
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14:05:47 <arseniiv> Is the first lowercase "o" the final form? => AFAIR yes, the final form is a truncated low-connection form
14:07:53 <arseniiv> your mousewriting is really good => I wish it would be better, but it’s probably a work for a tablet
14:08:54 <arseniiv> "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one => this is correct, the second and the last former continent here
14:09:05 <arseniiv> the last in this list
14:09:49 <arseniiv> "Salnce" I think. => with о instead of а it will be right (Солнце, Sun)
14:10:29 <arseniiv> and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e => yes, it’s pretty easy
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14:12:57 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: also thank you for ISO-9 link. I was trying to read it intuitively and I hope in a right fashion
14:15:21 <wob_jonas> Mercury => well, it sounds like the planet and the roman god, which wouldn't be scary in itself,
14:16:06 <wob_jonas> but back in the communist regime, the same word "Merkúr" was also the name of the single institution in Hungary that was selling new cars to people, and people often had to wait years on a queue to get a new car because there weren't enough of them, even if they had the money to pay the price of the car
14:16:38 <wob_jonas> they sold Trabants, Ladas, Polskis, Dacias, and others
14:17:31 <wob_jonas> and some people just wouldn't ever get a car, for no fault of their own
14:17:37 <wob_jonas> there are horror stories about it
14:18:11 <wob_jonas> and everyone had to be satisfied with the one car that became assigned for them, or else reject it and wait another probably infinite time
14:18:20 <Taneb> It's also a pretty dangerous metal
14:18:49 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: ^
14:19:00 <wob_jonas> Taneb: nah, they only call that in English
14:19:39 <wob_jonas> and it wasn't yet dangerous until like fifteen years ago, when they started to ban all mercury thermometers and lead soldering
14:19:50 <wob_jonas> and phase out leaded fuel
14:19:56 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: wow
14:20:02 <wob_jonas> and tin, but nobody was using it
14:20:16 <wob_jonas> mind you, there are pretty good medical reasons for banning these
14:20:43 <wob_jonas> but there are still no body thermometers better than the treasured old mercury ones that you can no longer buy in Hungary
14:21:20 <Taneb> (English and most other western european languages)
14:21:43 <wob_jonas> so hospitals and private individuals treasure the remaining pieces alike, or perhaps try to get one from Ukraine
14:22:26 <wob_jonas> you can still hand them in to pharmacies for free for safe waste destruction, but you pretty much only want to do that if it no longer works or it broke
14:22:46 <wob_jonas> they're all made of glass so they break easily if you drop them, and cause a dangerous mercury leak
14:23:07 <wob_jonas> and you usually drop them when you're measuring your or your child's temperature, and the mercury can spill on the person
14:23:07 <arseniiv> about Mercury: yeah, it’s probably an alchemy influence
14:23:17 <Taneb> arseniiv: yeah, just looked it up
14:23:27 <Taneb> Only metal whose alchemical name became the common name
14:23:29 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, definitely, the seven classical metals are assoc'd with the seven classical planets
14:23:53 <wob_jonas> gold = sun, silver = moon, iron = mars, mercury = mercury,
14:23:57 <Taneb> I guess Mercury because at the time it wasn't used much outside Alcehmy
14:24:19 <Taneb> Unlike gold, silver, copper, tin, iron, lead
14:24:25 <wob_jonas> and I think lead = saturn, tin = jupiter or backwards, I always forget, and, um
14:24:32 <wob_jonas> copper = venus
14:24:47 <arseniiv> I have a mercury thermometer :) these days they are rare (or nonexistent, IDK) there too
14:25:06 <wob_jonas> zinc was discovered too late so only these seven count as the classical alchemical metals
14:25:14 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I have one too, yes
14:25:18 <wob_jonas> and I use it
14:25:31 <wob_jonas> some doctors also use mercury blood pressure meters
14:25:33 <Taneb> I don't have any medical thermometer
14:26:20 <Taneb> I have a sugar thermometer but I don't know what's inside it
14:26:24 <Taneb> Probably not sugar
14:26:51 <wob_jonas> Taneb: I have fever occasionally, so I need a body thermometer of some sort to be able to tell precisely how to take countermeasures like various NSAIDs, cooling shower, and go to the doctor
14:27:38 <wob_jonas> Taneb: what is the sugar thermometer's purpose? cooking?
14:28:23 <Taneb> wob_jonas: yeah, stuff like toffee and jam where you have to boil sugar at a specific temperature
14:28:34 <Taneb> (I use it to make marshmallows occasionally)
14:29:00 <arseniiv> wow wow
14:29:14 <wob_jonas> so cooking. ok.
14:29:44 <wob_jonas> like a meat thermometer with those long needles to check the inside of whole cooked meat in the oven
14:29:46 <arseniiv> I made a soft candy once
14:30:02 <wob_jonas> I don't have any of those because I don't cook anything such difficult
14:30:17 <arseniiv> almost fried it in the process
14:30:17 <Taneb> I don't cook anything easy, which is terrible because I don't eat enough
14:30:59 <wob_jonas> Taneb: that's not a big problem if you can get acceptible food from another source
14:31:19 <wob_jonas> I also rarely cook. and even less in this summer heat.
14:31:30 <wob_jonas> s/even less/even more rarely/
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14:34:35 <Cale> `smlist 476
14:34:36 <HackEso> smlist 476: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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16:27:24 <arseniiv> does somebody read webserials in languages other than English?
16:30:18 <arseniiv> it seems unfair that webcomics are written in a variety of languages for quite a long time, and it seems webserials don’t compare in that regard
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17:13:03 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57279&oldid=57276 * DMC * (+35)
17:14:17 <esowiki> [[Alphabet Stew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57280&oldid=54957 * DMC * (+42) /* Examples */
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17:30:59 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57281&oldid=54798 * DMC * (+93) /* The Instruction set */
17:31:57 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57282&oldid=57281 * DMC * (-44) /* The Instruction set */
17:32:45 <esowiki> [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57283&oldid=57282 * DMC * (+4) /* The Instruction set */
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