←2018-08 2018-09 2018-10→ ↑2018 ↑all
2018-09-01
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03:02:48 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57499&oldid=55737 * Ais523 * (-17) /* Underload minimization */ golf the definition of ~ in terms of ()a!:*^
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03:04:06 <Sgeo> https://github.com/gergoerdi/brainfuck64
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04:42:45 <oerjan> ^ul (x)(y)aaa(!)(aa(!))(*a*:*^!*^):*^SSS
04:42:46 <fungot> xy ...out of stack!
04:42:53 <oerjan> fiendish
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12:17:46 <ais523> @message oerjan the trick with the shorter Underload swap is to realise that ~ is really not the most fundamental primitive; the actual primitive here is ~a*^ (which I think of as _), and you can implement ~ as a_
12:17:46 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
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12:18:05 <ais523> @tell oerjan the trick with the shorter Underload swap is to realise that ~ is really not the most fundamental primitive; the actual primitive here is ~a*^ (which I think of as _), and you can implement ~ as a_
12:18:05 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:20:15 <ais523> @tell oerjan for any constant K, (K)_ can be written as aa(!)(K)*a*:*^!*^, so to implement _ on an element taken from the stack, we can use (aa(!))_ to push the aa(!) before the element in question, everything else is easy from there
12:20:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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17:13:34 <zzo38> I added another file format decoder into Farbfeld Utilities, this time for MegaPaint format.
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18:57:36 <esowiki> [[Vrty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57500 * FAKE1007 * (+1219) Created page with "'''Vrty''' is an esoteric programming language by ~~~. It is an attempt on a good programming language that you can write easy programs on. Made in 2018. By the way, the devel..."
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20:02:27 <arseniiv> FAKE1007 is being boring(((
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20:03:11 <arseniiv> they don’t even hint what’s eso in that lang
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20:09:27 <Sgeo> The author of TempleOS might be dead (not sure if confirmed yet)
20:11:44 <int-e> HolyC is a terrible pun
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21:10:30 <wob_jonas> hi guys. I got my second wisdom tooth extraction yesterday. it went much better than the first one seven years ago. I still have to be careful for a while with the wound in my mouth, but it was much better.
21:11:28 <wob_jonas> The tooth came out quickly and unbroken, I only got one stitch, I didn't need to take any painkillers after, and my cheek doesn't look like I'm holding a tennis ball in my mouth at all.
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21:14:38 <wob_jonas> I will need a third wisdom tooth extracted, but that will likely be two months from now, to leave time for this to heal completely.
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21:23:19 <zzo38> Do you like sqlext_graph?
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21:35:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: where are your sql extensions again? anyway, I don't see why I'd like to combine sqlite with drawing graphs. there are already standalone programs for drawing graphs, like gnuplot, and I can feed them a text file and give commands with a text file. I've written advanced programs controlling gnuplot.
21:35:49 <wob_jonas> I think I could read from a database and write the data to a text file (or text pipe) and use gnuplot that way too.
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21:39:04 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/sql/sqlite.txt
21:39:30 <wob_jonas> ah, there's a zip!
21:39:34 <wob_jonas> I didn't notice that somehow
21:40:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: have you tried Scryfall's API yet? you know, the M:tG database
21:43:16 <zzo38> I have not, although I have looked at it, and sqlext_curl can be used to perform downloads from internet. I am not sure how to present the data by SQL tables, or what constraints to implement (some features of Scryfall would be difficult to implement in the SQLite virtual table mechanism).
21:44:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't want a virtual table mechanism, I just want a way to scrape most of the text data about cards (not the images) and store it locally, in a way that I can easily repeat four times a year.
21:45:08 <zzo38> You could just download the JSON then, I suppose, but then is not as good for querying the data.
21:45:55 <zzo38> What I want is support for incremental updates, but it look Scryfall doesn't have that.
21:46:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, I'll then parse the JSON (I have used a JSON parser before) and massage to some better format, possibly a database
21:46:26 <wob_jonas> zzo38: downloading all the text data without the images every three months isn't too bad, so the incremental updates isn't important
21:46:35 <zzo38> OK
21:46:52 <wob_jonas> you'd need more frequently than that only if you wanted more up to date price data, but I don't think you need that
21:47:47 <zzo38> I don't need price data, at least
21:52:45 <zzo38> Do you like window functions?
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21:53:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I still don't really understand how they work. I haven't dug through their docs yet.
22:09:33 <zzo38> I think I know how they work, but I have not tried it. (I will try it once the next version of SQLite is released.)
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22:24:09 <wob_jonas> I sent a feature request to sqlite3.
22:24:55 <wob_jonas> We'll find out later how they react.
22:25:13 <wob_jonas> I'm requesting a new builtin function.
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22:29:05 <zzo38> What new builtin function?
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22:30:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg111795.html
22:32:40 <zzo38> Yes, it is easier to make synonyms of the existing functions in the core rather than extensions.
22:33:51 <zzo38> However, I looked at the Microsoft documentation linked; the WITHIN GROUP clause is something I would want for ordinary aggregate functions (currently only window functions can have their own ORDER BY clause; I wanted a ORDER BY clause for ordinary aggregate functions before, too, but did not know what syntax it should be).
22:36:09 <zzo38> Still, I do not think it necessary to add another alias of an existing function there, but it might be worth while I don't know.
22:40:28 <zzo38> PostgreSQL allows the ORDER BY clause inside of the argument list, which I think is probably better and what I thought of at first.
22:44:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think it might be better to have something that's like an ORDER BY clause for the SELECT query but that sorts the contents of each aggregate groups for all aggregate group (or all rows found if there's no GROUP BY) for aggregate functions iterating over the rows in that query.
22:45:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: so in a SELECT statement, HAVING filters whole aggregate groups, ORDER BY sorts whole aggregate groups, WHEN filters individual rows before they're aggregated, and there could be one to sort rows before they're aggregated.
22:46:29 <wob_jonas> And then you could also add aggregate functions that take the value from the first row, the last row, or the nth row from the aggregate.
22:49:45 <zzo38> There are already window functions for the first row, last row, etc, but these functions cannot be used as ordinary aggregate functions.
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22:52:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you could also define custom aggregate functions for selecting a value from the first row sorted on any number of an extra set of values, eg. first_by(x,y,z) would select the value of x from the row where (y,z) is the lexicographically smallest, and that would still be useful and you could use different orderings in the same query,
22:52:28 <wob_jonas> except you can't make that use the string collation function of the y and z columns implicitly, but most of the time you don't care about that.
22:52:56 <wob_jonas> You wouldn't need window functions for that.
22:53:20 <wob_jonas> It gets ugly because you might want to sort DESC on some of the values, and it's harder to find a good syntax for that
22:53:46 <wob_jonas> you'd probably need a version that takes an extra argument to tell which columns you want to sort DESC by
22:54:44 <zzo38> Yes, that is why I think you should just use a ORDER BY clause in the argument list, with the words ORDER BY; even with GROUP_CONCAT function you might want ORDER BY
22:56:42 <zzo38> The window function is "first_value" and if made a aggregate function to write for example: first_value(x ORDER BY y,z)
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23:03:29 <esowiki> [[Vrty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57501&oldid=57500 * FAKE1007 * (+2)
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23:25:46 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I see. Although on second thought, to get the first from a group like (SELECT t.u, first_value(t.x ORDER BY t.y, t.z) AS xf FROM mytable AS t GROUP BY t.u),
23:25:48 <wob_jonas> you could currently use a subquery like (SELECT t.u, (SELECT i.x FROM mytable AS i WHERE i.u = t.u ORDER BY i.y, i.z) AS xf FROM t GROUP BY t.u)
23:29:23 <wob_jonas> I think SQLite can optimize that pretty well if you add the right index, like CREATE INDEX ... ON t(u, y, z, x);
23:29:50 <wob_jonas> no, that should be CREATE INDEX ... ON mytable(u, y, z, x);
23:30:19 <wob_jonas> and the query with the subquery should be (SELECT t.u, (SELECT i.x FROM mytable AS i WHERE i.u = t.u ORDER BY i.y, i.z) AS xf FROM mytable AS t GROUP BY t.u)
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23:31:23 <wob_jonas> and of course you can extend that with additional result columns, ORDER BY and HAVING and WHERE clauses etc, you just may have to repeat the HAVING for both the inner and outer query
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2018-09-02
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00:29:49 <arseniiv> @tell wob_jonas my condolences about the teeth. They can be real pain sometimes
00:29:49 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:32:56 <arseniiv> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57501&oldid=57500 => why I feel so sarcastic
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01:12:58 <esowiki> [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57502&oldid=57499 * Oerjan * (-3) /* Underload minimization */ Golf more: aaa(!)(aa(!))(*a*:*^!*^):*^ -> aa(!)(a(!))(*a*:*^!a*^):*^ -> aa(!a)(!)a(*a*:*^!a*^):*^ -> a(!a)(!)(a*a*:*^!a*^):*^
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01:20:46 <oerjan> @tell ais523 I golfed that more by looking at a trace of how it worked and adjusting so more a's could be done in the "shared" part. For a start, (K)_ = a(!) (K) *a*:*^!a*^ gives more sharing, then you can rearrange (!)(a(!)) to (!a)(!)a because they're contatenated, and then another pair of a's can be merged.
01:20:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:21:51 <oerjan> splengi :(
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01:27:38 <boily> bonsϿϿirjan.
01:27:43 <boily> @massages-loud
01:27:43 <lambdabot> quintopia said 16d 6h 4m 50s ago: polygod comes out of beta tomorrow. they say multiplayer actually works now.
01:27:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 10h 55m 14s ago: bood afternoily. that was certainly disturbing.
01:28:05 <boily> @tell quintopia QUINTHELLOPIA. oh yeah!
01:28:06 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:35:25 <oerjan> bood evenily.
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01:52:39 <esowiki> [[D.U.C.K.]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57503 * HereToAnnoy * (+3025) Created page with "'''D.U.C.K.''' (which stands for D.U.C.K.'s Name Has Been Changed, But Not Yet (suggest a better one on the talk page (the acronym must be D.U.C.K.))) is an esoteric program..."
01:53:18 <esowiki> [[D.U.C.K.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57504&oldid=57503 * HereToAnnoy * (-86) nevermind, better idea
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02:48:40 <zzo38> What role playing system (other than Scientific Role Playing System) has no character definition points or levels or class or whatever and instead you can just make up nearly whatever kind of characters you like to do?
03:37:33 <zseri_> @messages
03:37:33 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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07:01:48 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57505&oldid=57484 * YamTokWae * (-130) /* Examples */
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08:13:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Priyal * New user account
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08:33:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57506&oldid=57430 * Priyal * (+277)
08:34:01 <esowiki> [[User talk:Priyal]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57507 * Priyal * (+5) how are you
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11:35:37 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Orisphera * New user account
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14:46:20 <rain1> hi eso
14:46:30 <rain1> https://bootstrapping.miraheze.org/wiki/The_Semantics_Assignment_Problem do you want to see my blog post?
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15:22:48 <arseniiv> hi all, do you know any language that allows some objects to implement different interfaces (or, say, have different APIs) at the different moments of its lifetime? It would have the same state (modulo RTTI), but the compiler (and runtime) would disallow casting it to currently unsupported interfaces
15:25:42 <arseniiv> it could be useful for building complex structures and then freezing them, without a need either to copy all the built to a new object of a different type (with a restricted API) or checking freezeness manually in its code at any attempt to mutate its state when its frozen
15:26:42 <arseniiv> also could this approach be transparently emulated in a language such as C# somehow
15:30:04 <arseniiv> in a language with linear types, it could be easier I presume. Then we could abandon something old completely without fear it would be picked up and used by someone to poking the presumably-immutable-now data
15:31:08 <arseniiv> also this approach would be nice for more complex DFAs
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15:34:36 <arseniiv> maybe also anything on various Builder-alternatives in various langs is appreciated
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16:07:13 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: sure, you can do that in several OO languages.
16:08:32 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: some ruby built-in classes like arrays or strings have a built-in freeze! method IIRC that just turns on a bit so if you later try to modify the contents of that container, it gives a runtime error.
16:09:42 <wob_jonas> ruby also lets you do all sorts of crazy runtime stuff that can break like anything if you do it carelessly, such as adding or removing or modifying methods of a class, or "adding methods to an object" (for all non-thin objects)
16:10:47 <wob_jonas> the latter actually works such that the first time you add a method to an object, it creates a custom class inheriting from the original class of that object, and changes the object in place so its class is this new class, except some queries will still lie that the old class is the class of that object
16:12:17 <wob_jonas> Perl just lets you directly change the class of any reference to any classname at runtime with the bless function, which is the primary interface to create objects that are members of classes, but normally you only use it once, soon after you create the object
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16:12:46 <wob_jonas> this can be useful for some optimizations, like transparently changing the class of an object to a different class that implements the same interface
16:13:29 <wob_jonas> such as upgrading a class to a slower implementation on demand when necessary
16:14:01 <wob_jonas> perl also lets you just add or remove or modify methods of classes at runtime
16:15:26 <wob_jonas> or create new classes at runtime, but the difficulty with that is that the reference from an object to its class is always by name, so you can't use the normal reference counting mechanism to collect classes used that way, you have to arrange the class to get destroyed in some other way if you don't want to leak it
16:17:13 <wob_jonas> Smalltalk also has a primitive to swap the contents of two objects, which, if I understand correctly, is mostly used in practice to replace the low-level non-resizable array associated with the object (there's zero or one associated with every object and no other primitive way to replace it), to implement the built-in array and dictionary classes
16:18:02 <wob_jonas> I think that could be used to change the class of an object.
16:19:29 <wob_jonas> In C++ you can construct a new object in place of an old one, and if you make sure there's enough space, they can be of different classes, but there are some arcane rules for how you're allowed and forbidden to handle references or pointers to the object through that, so it's not something you often do without wrappers.
16:21:05 <wob_jonas> I think that unlike perl, ruby or python2/3 doesn't just let you arbitrarily replace the class of an object by a different class, because objects of different classes can have different internal representations.
16:22:18 <wob_jonas> But in ruby, with the add method to class (metaclass) mechanism, you can effectively change the class of the object to satisfy any reasonable interface.
16:22:52 <wob_jonas> (Certain interfaces are restricted, eg. only certain built-in thin objects behave as false in conditionals.)
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16:25:28 <wob_jonas> In rust, you definitely can't change the type of an object, because references and pointers to it know the type. (That works like ancient pre-standard versions of C++, in which the virtual method table pointer wasn't stored with the object, but with references to it.)
16:26:08 <wob_jonas> You can only change the runtime behavior of an object directly by making functions operating on that object check some condition.
16:27:09 <wob_jonas> But with a level of indirection, you can effectively change the object: you can have a reference that can store at runtime a reference to any type satisfying some interface.
16:28:14 <wob_jonas> Modern haskell also lets you do that with indirection, it lets you have a cell that stores a reference to any type of object that satisfies some interface.
16:29:08 <wob_jonas> And "modern" is an overstatement, I think that was already possible a decade ago.
16:29:38 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: Is that a good enough answer? I don't know enoguh about golang.
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16:30:25 <wob_jonas> I know golang has interfaces and types, but I don't know how they work. I also don't know enough about JVM or java, but I think some people here might.
16:31:23 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: ruby also lets you do all sorts of crazy runtime stuff that can break like anything if you do it carelessly => yeah, that’s why I’ve got over a book on it a while ago. Python is saner
16:32:16 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you must hate perl too then, it's similar
16:32:50 <wob_jonas> which python? python 2/3 or python 1 already?
16:33:39 <arseniiv> . o O (Ruby, Perl, Smalltalk, C++ seems like an ominous sequence of language examples)
16:36:11 <wob_jonas> oh right, arseniiv is young, you might not have even met python 1. good.
16:36:22 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: Is that a good enough answer? => IDK but it’s very comprehensive nonetheless; also it’s definitely useful on inderections
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16:38:26 <arseniiv> IIRC in Haskell it would be something like x :: (… a) => a, but it’s immutable though. And if Haskell had linear types, it would be useful in this context lot indeed
16:38:57 <wob_jonas> javascript/ecmascript would be a reasonable language to ask this about too, and you have to ask others in this channel for that too
16:39:36 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: which python? python 2/3 or python 1 already? => 2/3 with the weight on 3 :D I could only imagine what a thing should Python 1 had been
16:40:14 <wob_jonas> I think HQ9++ doesn't let you change the class of existing objects, despite that it lets you create new classes at runtime.
16:40:29 <arseniiv> (rofl)
16:41:07 <wob_jonas> There are OO versions of Intercal, with classes and lessons, but I don't know how they work
16:43:48 <zzo38> In JavaScript you can use Object.setPrototypeOf() to change the prototype of an object (any properties (methods are also properties) of an objects that you access but aren't on that object itself are looked in the prototype; if not there, in the prototype's prototype, etc)
16:44:25 <wob_jonas> zzo38: so it has the power of reblessing like perl. ok.
16:49:00 <wob_jonas> I don't recall who other than ais523 and zzo38 are familiar with OO intercal, and I don't recall who other than ais is familiar with JVM, but I think for the latter there was someone else in the channel. I don't know if anyone in the channel is familar with golang.
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16:52:22 <ais523> @messages-
16:52:22 <lambdabot> oerjan said 15h 31m 36s ago: I golfed that more by looking at a trace of how it worked and adjusting so more a's could be done in the "shared" part. For a start, (K)_ = a(!) (K) *a*:*^!a*^ gives
16:52:22 <lambdabot> more sharing, then you can rearrange (!)(a(!)) to (!a)(!)a because they're contatenated, and then another pair of a's can be merged.
16:53:17 <wob_jonas> oh hi ais523
16:53:24 <ais523> hi
16:53:32 <ais523> are you in a better mood to tell me what's wrong with DBI yet?
16:53:37 <wob_jonas> arseniiv was just asking about some OO stuff so I ranted at him about some OO languages
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16:54:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: firstly, I don't think I want an abstraction for every SQL DB out there, at least not as the most popular interface. usually I just want a perl interface that wraps the interface of one DB.
16:54:49 <ais523> object oriented INTERCAL probably does silly things if you try to do "normal" OO programming with it
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16:55:08 <ais523> Claudio Calvelli is known for leaving minefields in his INTERCAL extensions that subtly screw up attempts to translate more normal code
16:55:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: secondly, bad default settings, the most annoying being the auto-reconnect being on, which has a huge potential to cause hard to debug bugs that appear rarely unless you override it.
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16:56:02 <ais523> oh wow, that does sound bad
16:56:12 <ais523> luckily my current plan is to read through all the settings and set the ones that could matter explicitly
16:56:30 <ais523> (that said, an auto-reconnect feature may be just what I need at work at the moment…)
16:56:34 <wob_jonas> mind you, it's possible that auto-reconnect is the one bad thing that won't hurt as much with sqlite as with some other database connecting through the network
16:57:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: most databases have a sane interface in C that you can just easily wrap in perl to an interface that looks similar.
16:57:17 <zzo38> Having the interface for just one DB is good because different SQL implementations have different functions.
16:57:37 <ais523> I think SQL would benefit from being standardised
16:58:06 <ais523> (incidentally, the dynamic typing is my least favourite thing about SQLite, and I'm not 100% convinced that it works the same as static typing for the same programs, like they claim it does)
16:59:15 <zzo38> SQL is standardised, although most implementations do not implement the entire standard and also add their own stuff too
16:59:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's an understatement. string concatenation being done two or three different ways in SQL databases is horrible.
16:59:30 <ais523> there is a standard but I wouldn't call it standardised
17:03:24 <zzo38> You could make a modified version of SQLite if you have to
17:04:15 <ais523> I kind-of assume that database engines "should be" statically typed as it would help them make optimisations
17:04:16 <wob_jonas> The "+" operator does string catenation in MS SQL but not in SQLite. The "||" operator does string concatenation in SQLite and PostGre but doesn't exist in MS SQL and does logical ior in MySQL.
17:04:56 <ais523> this actually came up in a hypothetical query a while back, I was wondering if SQLite could optimise it and the answer was "no, because it doesn't know that booleans are necessarily either true or false, so you have to put an IN (TRUE, FALSE) condition on the query explicitly"
17:05:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: schmorp said he doesn't use sqlite because of its dynamic typing, and says it's bad because it would take up too much storage overhead in some of the large databases he uses.
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17:06:14 <ais523> yes, it inherently seems hard to optimise
17:07:00 <wob_jonas> So I accept that it's not a database engine you want to use for all your databases, but I still like SQLite, and there are applications when the dynamic typing with all its overhead doesn't matter much.
17:07:15 <wob_jonas> Applications when that overhead isn't a bottleneck.
17:08:21 <zzo38> There are applications where dynamic typing is helpful for some data, too
17:08:55 <wob_jonas> And schmorp is the guy who sometimes does crazy stuff to optimize something in pure perl when all the dynamic allocation and dynamic typing and stuff like that slows things down in perl, while at the same time he also knows the perl-C "interface" better than almost any programmer, and can write decent C code that would be at least as optimized just
17:08:55 <wob_jonas> fine.
17:09:24 <wob_jonas> It even rubbed a bit on me, I tried some perl optimizations, though of course they're nowhere nearly as crazy as his.
17:10:29 <wob_jonas> I personally think he underestimates the amount he could do the same sort of crazy optimizations when using sqlite, but whatever.
17:10:58 <wob_jonas> Maybe he really needs to handle such large databases and it's not worth for him to learn sqlite.
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17:11:32 <zzo38> Yes, there are other database systems and SQLite is not for everything. But SQLite is good for many things, I think.
17:14:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think SQLite has plenty of potential for such optimisations but they'd probably go against its goals somewhat
17:16:49 <ais523> <zzo38> What role playing system (other than Scientific Role Playing System) has no character definition points or levels or class or whatever and instead you can just make up nearly whatever kind of characters you like to do? ← the simplest role playing system I know is Roll to Dodge, although most players don't take it very seriously
17:17:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes. you use the tool for what it's good for, and work it around when it doesn't work well. just like I like to do with every software.
17:17:45 <wob_jonas> (I should try to install gimp 2.10.6 or something.)
17:17:56 <ais523> basically, whenever you try to take an action, you roll a 6-sided dice, on a 5 it works perfectly, on a 4 it mostly works, on a 3 it partially works, on a 2 it doesn't work at all, on a 1 it does the opposite of what it was meant to, and on a 6 it works too well and produces an undesirable result despite technically doing what you said
17:18:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: can you answer arseniiv's original question for JVM?
17:18:27 <wob_jonas> it was something about objects and them changing what interface they satisfy. arseniiv, what is the question?
17:18:34 <ais523> this system has huge balance issues as written because it doesn't take the difficulty of the action into account, but if you rule that "works perfectly" is still not good enough in the case of actions that should be impossible, it may be workabl
17:18:34 <wob_jonas> what was the question before I morphed it that is
17:18:35 <ais523> *workable
17:18:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: I missed the question
17:18:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, who on this channel other than you knows JVM?
17:19:01 <ais523> however, from your vague description, I suspect the answer is no for Java and yes for Perl, as it would be for any question that's approximately like that
17:19:15 <ais523> I don't know; there are probably others but we don't discuss Java much here
17:19:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok, but how about JVM?
17:19:43 <zzo38> ais523: Yes; I know that is no good; Scientific Role Playing System does have to do it with taking difficulty into account and so on, much more complicated than that, and more scientific.
17:19:56 <ais523> on the JVM the classes and interfaces extended and implemented by any given object are fixed when it's created, and there's no way to subsequently change that using in-language and in-JVM APIs
17:20:32 <wob_jonas> ais523: and you can't replace objects in place, right?
17:20:39 <ais523> apparently there's some sort of live update API that can change the definition of a class at runtime but I don't know how it works, and it may a) be proprietary or b) not exist yet
17:20:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: indeed
17:20:49 <wob_jonas> ok
17:21:10 <ais523> in theory you could attach a debugger to yourself, walk the heap to find all the inbound references to the object, and edit them all in place
17:21:16 <ais523> but it'd be massively inefficient and pretty scary
17:21:26 <wob_jonas> oh, I've heard of people trying that in perl
17:21:28 <ais523> (I know this subject pretty well as it'd be really useful for my day job if it were possible)
17:21:36 <wob_jonas> (without the debugger part)
17:21:43 <wob_jonas> but with the goal of debuggign
17:21:51 <wob_jonas> that is, finding where an object is referenced from
17:21:58 <ais523> well, in Perl you can do things like casually replacing the main loop of the interpreter if you want to
17:22:01 <wob_jonas> so they walk the heap to find a name (or another name) for an object
17:22:04 <ais523> while the program is running!
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17:22:39 <wob_jonas> oh, I guess I should also mention lua
17:22:58 <ais523> <arseniiv> hi all, do you know any language that allows some objects to implement different interfaces (or, say, have different APIs) at the different moments of its lifetime? It would have the same state (modulo RTTI), but the compiler (and runtime) would disallow casting it to currently unsupported interfaces
17:23:00 <ais523> found it
17:23:58 <ais523> and yes, Perl has low-level operations that can accomplish that, although the operations in question don't have the sort of safety checks you were looking for
17:24:07 <ais523> you could probably implement them using higher-level operations
17:25:22 <ais523> Rust is interesting in this respect as it always does run-time polymorphism via wrapper objects, and so you could create a new wrapper object to implement another interface if you wanted to, the object itself wouldn't know what interfaces it was meant to be implementing
17:26:21 <wob_jonas> lua also lets you rebless (change the class) an object at runtime arbitrarily, at least as much as you can have them have a class in first place (objects of some types like numbers and strings and light userdata have a fixed class depending on their low-level type; and full userdata can only be created or reblessed from the C API, not the normal lu
17:26:21 <wob_jonas> a function that lets you bless or rebless a table),
17:26:27 <ais523> oh, JavaScript is another language where you can do this sort of thing, due to prototype-based inheritance (each object effectively acts as its own class so you can just start putting methods on it at runtime), although JavaScript doesn't have the concept of typed interfaces
17:26:56 <ais523> the same general idea would work in Feather if it existed
17:27:34 <wob_jonas> there's just one limitation, namely that if you change certain attributes of an object that affect the garbage collector (namely the finalizer and the weak key and weak value bits) either by reblessing or changing a class, then that might not immediately take effect.
17:27:46 <ais523> wob_jonas: also, HQ9++ doesn't let you create new classes at runtime
17:27:58 <ais523> the ++ instruction is the equivalent of Java's «a += 2; new Object();»
17:28:24 <ais523> presumably the objects in question are garbage collected immediately as you can't actually do anything with them
17:28:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: zzo38 already mentioned javascript and said the same, namely that it has a function for reblessing an object by changing its prototype to any object at runtime
17:29:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: no way. the docs for HQ9++ say "increments the accumulator twice, and also instantiates an object of a new subclass of the generic superclass"
17:29:27 <ais523> oh, new subclass
17:29:39 <ais523> how incredibly dynamic of it
17:29:58 <ais523> you can't even implement that in Java without actually generating the bytecode for the new class at runtime :-D
17:30:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but you can implement it in ruby
17:30:14 <ais523> I guess you could use Proxy
17:30:17 <wob_jonas> or in lua
17:30:33 <ais523> but it'd probably reuse the classes it generated unless you tried hard not to
17:31:06 <ais523> «a += 2; new Object() {};» is close to what HQ9++ is doing, except that Java will reuse the same anonymous class each time
17:32:37 <wob_jonas> or in javascript
17:35:48 <arseniiv> have anyone heard of posits (a number format akin to floating point), WDYT?
17:36:03 <ais523> I haven't heard of it
17:36:31 <zzo38> I have
17:40:56 <arseniiv> arseniiv, what is the question? => actually I’m more interesting in sensible (less entities, less code) builder pattern replacements and in emulation of those former “interface-changes” in a lang that doesn’t support class changing, and in statical correctness overall
17:41:44 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: um, I don't relaly understand that...
17:41:49 <ais523> the Moose library, which is a Perl OO library that's less low-level than its built-in OO primitives, has some sort of reblessing built in as an official thing that's supported
17:42:09 <wob_jonas> my brain ceased to listen to "sensible builder pattern replacements"
17:43:18 <ais523> arseniiv: my current idea for what a sensible builder pattern looks like is to have typed partially constructed objects
17:43:38 <ais523> like, they start off with some of the fields as write-only and they can gradually be changed to read-only as the object gets more defined
17:43:45 <ais523> and the type reflects which fields are readable at the moment
17:44:43 <ais523> this is something that's mindboggingly hard to do in most languages and yet would make builder-pattern code much cleaner (also things like StringBuilder, which I think isn't the builder pattern despite its name?)
17:47:16 <arseniiv> ais523: nice
17:47:41 <arseniiv> yeah StringBuilder doesn’t seem to be a builder in the concrete sense
17:48:06 <ais523> it turns out that in most languages there are ways to get at partially constructed objects /anyway/, so may as well have sensible semantics for them
17:48:22 <wob_jonas> oh, that builder pattern. not the other one. I have used that.
17:48:51 <wob_jonas> not ais's idealized one, the plain builder pattern with an attributes object and a handle object and an open function that takes an attribute object and constructs a handle object
17:49:03 <wob_jonas> as in, I created such an interface
17:49:24 <arseniiv> although I’d squash all that fine type information to one flag (writable/frozen?) maybe, as it seems too much complexity. If I’d build a compiler, that is :D
17:49:31 <wob_jonas> and in that case, the attribute object is just a plain struct with all fields having a default value.
17:49:43 <wob_jonas> and like twenty fields.
17:50:02 <ais523> arseniiv: well the idea is to prevent fields being read before they've been written
17:50:08 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: if you just want one frozen flag, I already mentioned ruby has that
17:50:43 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: isn’t it too much repetition? The same fields in the struct and the result
17:51:20 <zzo38> In JavaScript you can create objects that have any prototype, although they will not necessarily work, for example Object.create(Int16Array.prototype) creates an object, but if you try to access the "length" property of the created object it throws an error.
17:51:27 <arseniiv> ais523: well the idea is to prevent fields being read before they've been written => ah, in this generality I agree it’s a useful thing
17:51:52 <ais523> come to think of it, you can probably do something like this in OCaml
17:52:15 <wob_jonas> many languages have other special tricks to support building arrays with an appendable array that is then converted to a fixed size array.
17:53:02 <ais523> although in OCaml it's more idiomatic to make a changed copy of an object than to mutate the original, and I don't think you can do this while mutating the original
17:53:13 <wob_jonas> python2/3 has appendable arrays called "list" and frozen arrays called "tuple" and a function "tuple" to cast that I think optimizes the case when the refcounter knows there's no other reference or something
17:53:46 <wob_jonas> rust has a trick for this with Vec<T> and Box<[T]>
17:53:50 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: if you just want one frozen flag, I already mentioned ruby has that => but it’s for intrinsic classes, no? And I could use an actual flag in my class, but it’s cumbersome to check it in any method which can mutate state; copying state is cumbersome too, and an immutable adapter is slightly cumbersome too, as one could possibly mutate its adaptee (no linear types!)
17:54:52 <wob_jonas> some people want to add the rust trick to C++ by adding a release method to the interface of std::vector<T> so you can build a std::unique_ptr<T[]> from it
17:54:53 <ais523> wob_jonas: is Vec appendable?
17:55:52 <ais523> I guess it must be, because [T] is the nonappendable version
17:55:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, Vec is like C++ std::vector, appendable on the right, tracking the size and capacity separately, automatically growing in like powers of two (the exact pattern of growth is not guaranteed), you can pre-allocate to capacity if you know in advance or shrink later
17:56:39 <ais523> many of the programming projects in C I start on end up stalling because I get sidetracked by trying to figure out the best way to do appendable arrays :-D
17:57:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: but unlike in C++, there's some strong guarantees on how Vec actually works, which fix everything except for the growth pattern and the actual memory representation of the Vec header, so you can deconstruct a Vec to a triplet of a pointer to the first element, size and capacity, and rebuild Vec from that,
17:58:14 <wob_jonas> and there's a method that converts a Vec to a Box<[]> that is in place if the capacity is equal to the size (otherwise it has to shrink first)
17:58:49 <wob_jonas> so Vec is the officially supported way to build a Box<[]> incrementally
17:58:50 <ais523> hmm, now I'm curious as to whether Rust uses a memory allocator that has guaranteed shrink-in-place
17:59:43 <wob_jonas> and if you try to reinvented building a Box<[]> incrementally, you'll likely reinvent Vec, because during building you need to track how many members are initialized so you can deconstruct them if an exception is thrown
18:00:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think it guarantees shrink-in-place
18:00:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: in fact I think guaranteeing that would be bad, because it would make it hard to optimize handling small arrays in the allocator
18:00:51 <ais523> yes
18:01:14 <ais523> shrink-in-place is one of those things that sounds trivial, but ends up interfering with a number of optimisations
18:01:19 <wob_jonas> and small arrays are a common enoguh case in many programs that it's worth to optimize
18:02:02 <wob_jonas> it's even more of a problem for rust than with C malloc, because it has sized deallocate
18:02:39 <zzo38> SQLite documentation mentions using SQLite for internal data. Free Hero Mesh uses SQLite for some of its internal data (although not all), as well as for the user cache file, and also to allow the user to use SQL codes to extend the user interface at runtime.
18:02:41 <ais523> you mean the deallocator has to be given the size explicitly, rather than tracking it internally?
18:02:42 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: (if you’ve used Rust enough) how is Rust’s borrowing in practice? Is it hard to learn to not violate? I’m going to poke at Rust in the future
18:03:08 <ais523> I like that, there seem to be two optimal ways to use an allocation system and that's one of them
18:03:19 <ais523> (the other is to have the allocation system track the lengths of everything and provide an API to get at them)
18:03:38 <zzo38> (SQLite documentation does not mention using SQLite in this last way.)
18:03:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, exactly
18:04:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: that works because currently every rust object knows its length, though recently they've added abstract objects that don't, but the allocator isn't geared for that
18:04:59 <ais523> you'd think an abstract object would be responsible for deallocating itself, because there's no obvious reason why it would be using the same allocator as the rest of the code
18:05:55 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: I haven't used rust enough, but I really like rust's borrowing, it matches well with my style, and you can break the abstraction and manage pointers explicitly when it gets in the way, though you have to learn rust's rules for what's allowed and they're different from C's and C++'s rules
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18:07:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, or more like, whoever owns the object is responsible for deallocating the object, so a pointer/reference to an object could point to something that was allocated in the box or on the stack or in a global static in the data segment or any other way, just like with a C or C++ pointer or reference
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18:08:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: but that's not the part that differs from an abstract object to a sized or dynamically sized object
18:09:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: the part that differs is that you can't move or copy an abstract object, at least not directly, because rust doesn't know its size at runtime and it's not even guaranteed that moving or copying wouldn't violate some abstraction
18:09:30 <ais523> that makes sense
18:09:34 <wob_jonas> and I think they're not called abstract objects, I'm just stupid
18:09:43 <wob_jonas> opaque is a better name, but I'm not sure what the rust name is
18:09:52 <ais523> this is kind-of like Lua light userdata, which it can't do anything with because it's just a pointer and it doesn't know any details about what it's pointing to
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18:10:10 <ais523> all you can do is pass it to user-defined functions which might know what sort of thing it's pointing to
18:11:19 <wob_jonas> traditionally rust had only Sized objects, whose size is known at compile time, and unsized object, whose size is known at runtime, and they can be an array or str or a trait object or an object with one of those as their trailing field (but this fourth one is barely supported)
18:11:26 <wob_jonas> s/array/slice/
18:12:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but this is a compile-time thing the typechecker and all sorts of language semantics have to know about, which is why it's hard to introduce when so much of rust was built on the assumption that such objects don't exist
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18:12:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's hard to make sure that they can exist and that most of the operations that make sense on them still work but you can't do anything on them that doesn't make sense and not much backwards compatibility is broken
18:13:49 <wob_jonas> If it was only a runtime dynamic-only thing, then it wouldn't be hard to support, in fact rust already supports them through a pointer to the start of the object and pointer arithmetic and pointer casting
18:14:30 <wob_jonas> But we want them really integrated to the language, not just a hack like when you pass a char* to memcpy
18:14:50 <wob_jonas> Rust already allows the char* thing
18:16:45 <wob_jonas> But apparently they're settling on some solution, and not just the opaque object stuff, but some useful library types to wrap them, only I don't really understand how they work.
18:18:38 <zzo38> SQLite also has string building functions in the C interface, in case you need that.
18:19:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: so do some other C libraries
18:19:32 <zzo38> Yes, probably there are some. There are probably also other C libraries with functions like SQLite's sqlite3_mprintf() function
18:21:58 <arseniiv> so about typing for partially initialized types. Let T{s} be a type of values of a “flat” type T having initialization state s, T{s} would make up a lattice by <:, if we take values of s democratically: T{all} <: T{some partial state or more} <: T{none or more}
18:21:59 <arseniiv> then let T be a class and its constructor returns T{none or more}, and we can’t feed this somewhere T{all} is needed, horay. Also in a simple code there seems no need to designate anything but T{all} and T{none…}, so they could be called as simple as T and T^ for example
18:24:04 <arseniiv> a simplistic approach ^
18:26:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: rust can sort of track at compile time which individual fields (recursively) of a structure or tuple are initialized (and also which ones are borrowed and which are borrowed exclusively), but it only really works within a function body, you can't define a function that takes or returns a partially constructed object with the partial constru
18:26:40 <wob_jonas> ction state known at compile time.
18:28:51 <wob_jonas> You can use an Option to track optional construction of a field at runtime with a flag, or you can tell rust that you're tracking whether a field is constructed in some way you can't prove to it and it should trust you.
18:29:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: so what you're saying about partly constructed objects is interesting, and I wonder if it's possible to make something like that work
18:29:50 <ais523> this is the sort of thing you spend a year implementing as a research programmer, and then it never catches on :-D
18:30:05 <ais523> it's almost certainly possible to make it work, but it might not be worth the effort
18:30:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, but rust is such a useful platform to advertise such a project, if you can make it compatible with rust
18:30:53 <ais523> I was thinking about this more for languages that are more heavily OO than Rust
18:30:56 <ais523> it might work with Rust too though
18:31:03 <wob_jonas> if you implement it in the rust compiler, and the semantics are sane and useful and it's backwards compatible, then it'll likely catch on
18:31:15 <zzo38> Unlike what you describe for Roll to Dodge, in Scientific Role Playing System it is possible for different characters to be different amount of good at different skills (and even certain cases of skills; there are no limits as to what cases you can define them to be).
18:31:28 <wob_jonas> but you have to track a moving rust as a target, during that one year parts you are touching can change
18:31:44 <zzo38> I listed the restrictions for defining a character at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui/wiki?name=Notes/Pointless
18:32:17 <zzo38> Do you like this?
18:35:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that reminds me of the more serious "who can name the biggest number" contests
18:37:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also if more than one player defines a character this way independetly, I'm not sure how you guarantee that you can't get a logical inconsistency from them meeting, or how you would mediate such a logical inconsistency
18:37:15 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose that is related, although it isn't really the same purpose. It isn't a contest to "win" at character definition.
18:37:26 <arseniiv> I think there could be an “assertive” setting: we have a struct/class C, some fileds in there are of optional type and marked with something (or it’s a special marked optional type, hm) (these are mutable and initially initialized to Nothing), and make this class inherit a mixin IBuilding. Then the compiler adds another class with a name, say, C.Built, and adds to C an automatically implemented method returning C.Built and throwi
18:37:27 <arseniiv> ng an exception if not all marked optional fields are non-Nothing. One runtime check and much joy
18:37:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: like, if one character has a pistol whose bullet can break anyone's skull, and another character has a skull that is impervious to bullets
18:38:02 <wob_jonas> (you know, the cannonball and the wall)
18:38:08 <zzo38> wob_jonas: The first two restrictions are made to avoid such case.
18:38:14 <arseniiv> a thing I don’t like here is a naming convention, it better be C.Unbuilt and C and not C and C.Built
18:38:47 <arseniiv> that second auto-generated class would have non-optionals instead of marked optionals
18:39:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: a skull that can't be broken by bullets doesn't make your character invincible (it can still have its skull broken by a club, or his heart broken by a bullet),
18:40:10 <wob_jonas> and a bullet that breaks any skull doesn't make the attack invincible (the target might not have a skull, or might be able to regenerate from a broken skull, or might have more than one brain and survive one getting destroyed, etc)
18:40:26 <wob_jonas> so I don't see how those first two restrictions are strong enough
18:41:06 <zzo38> Yes, probably there would be rules for that, such as you would roll the dice in the case (GURPS does something like that with Cosmic modifiers; if both the attack and the defense have them, then just use normal non-cosmic rules).
18:41:24 <zzo38> But you can make suggestions how to make it better if you think to change it.
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18:42:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. I have no idea how to make good role-playing systems, especially not ones that give you so much freedom.
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18:50:11 <arseniiv> zzo38: description seems nice! But I’m not competent enough in RPG systems too
19:09:48 <zzo38> I also made up a rule for random durations. For effects with a minimum and maximum and is some number of dice, do not roll the dice until after the minimum duration has passed (e.g. if it is 2d+5 hours, then do not roll the dice until after 7 hours). If you have a deck of cards, you may also use cards for this purpose, which defer knowing the duration even later.
19:10:16 <zzo38> For effects without a minimum and maximum duration, you may determine the effect's "half life" and then periodically roll the dice to see if it is expired yet or not.
19:17:01 <wob_jonas> zzo38: you can roll once dice after 7 hours, then the second dice x-1 hours after that if x is the result of the first dice roll; or you can make it even more precise by rolling whether the duration has ended at every hour (or in general every possible moment when the duration could end)
19:17:26 <zzo38> Ah, yes, you can do that
19:19:18 <wob_jonas> but in general, each rule itself should specify which player gets what exact information at what moment, and there's a large spectrum there
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19:37:28 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I had a dream in which Burlew accidentally released a whole buncha olists at once.
19:37:44 <shachaf> He had 50 comics in his backlog or something. And you claimed it didn't even exist!
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19:41:44 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I had a dream when someone else built a sort of time machine, a computer and program that simulates enough of the universe and the Giant's and Knuth's mind to compute the contents of the rest of the OoTS strips and TAOCP books, or at least a sample of it from the universe conditioned on the publically known information, re-ran until it got
19:41:44 <wob_jonas> a sample with the post-condition that they get completed in a satisfying way before the author is unable or unwilling to continue.
19:43:21 <wob_jonas> shachaf: And then that sample was printed and bound in a book the real one would look like, except with a preface telling that it's not the real thing but computed from such a simulation, and these were sent to the Giant and Knuth to aid them in their completing the book;
19:44:20 <wob_jonas> except that this sending the book to the author itself was simulated and they took the book the author would produce then, a few dozen iterations deep, in the hope that it would converge to something better, and then that result was sent to the authors in the real world.
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19:48:17 <wob_jonas> shachaf: This is computationally much harder in Knuth's case, because TAOCP will be full of references to future research, so the computer has to simulate a lot of that too, whereas the Giant could basically be locked in a basement with no communication with the outside world for thirty years and finish OoTS just fine;
19:49:41 <wob_jonas> but is much more useful in the case of Knuth, to work around the difficulty that he is 80 years old and his health might deteriorate too fast for him to finish TAOCP (receiving a news of Knuth's death is one of my worst nightmares, it sounds worse than a world war because civilization can be rebuilt faster than Knuth can be reborn).
19:50:07 <zzo38> I once got some volumes of TAOCP from inter library loans, although I do want to own copies of all of them
19:53:59 <shachaf> wob_jonas: So until just now I was sure that "giant in the playground" was a reference to an old children's story.
19:54:12 <shachaf> But I looked it up and apparently it's not related!
19:55:14 <shachaf> Moreover, the story's name in English is "The Selfish Giant", not "The Giant and His Garden" like in Hebrew.
19:55:18 <shachaf> It's by Oscar Wilde.
19:55:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I bought the e-book versions of volumes 1,2,3,4A now. I will buy volumes 4B,...,5 as each of them is published, and then the new edition of volumes 1,2,3 too.
19:56:12 <zzo38> I want the printed book both the version with MIX and with MMIX.
19:58:04 <wob_jonas> zzo38: for books 1,2,3, you can buy the MIX versions now and keep them if you want that. For books 4A...5, those will never exist.
19:58:22 <wob_jonas> (this ties into `quote Knuth )
19:59:38 <zzo38> OK
20:01:12 <shachaf> wob_jonas: whoa whoa whoa
20:01:16 <shachaf> Wait, never mind.
20:01:47 <wob_jonas> But I recommend that you buy the third, third and second editions of volumes 1, 2, 3 resp, rather than the editions before that.
20:03:11 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the e-book version might be better than the printed version in that it has the existing Knuth-approved errata merged.
20:03:58 <wob_jonas> well, up to some point that might be more up to date than the print versions
20:04:27 <zzo38> I just wrote in the errata for Computers and Typesetting by myself by pencil, after finding what to write by computer.
20:04:53 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I see
20:05:57 <wob_jonas> zzo38: which volumes of Computers and Typesetting are those?
20:13:45 <zzo38> It is the full millennium set
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20:17:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: nice. How much of TAOCP do you have?
20:18:34 <wob_jonas> And do you have Concrete Mathematics? I haven't bought any of Computers and Typesetting, and I only have the translation of Concrete Mathematics.
20:18:50 <zzo38> None; I only temporarily borrowed some volumes of TAOCP from library (they didn't have all of them).
20:19:02 <zzo38> I do not have Concrete Mathematics either.
20:19:54 <wob_jonas> I have the original copy of my errata http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/errata/concrete_errata on a sheet of paper with pen inserted in my Concrete Mathematics volume, and a few of the more distracting errors marked in pencil in situ, but I believe that almost all of those errors are only in the translation, not the original.
20:52:02 <zzo38> Is there compression format that can use arbitrary compression algorithms like ZPAQ can do but that is not also the archive format? (For archive format you can use other formats such as a tape archive or Hamster archive.)
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21:20:07 <arseniiv> what book in the world is the Knuthesquest one?
21:23:34 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: Possiblyi it's always the last completed one, so currently TAOCP vol 4A, and eventually it will be the ultimate edition of vol 3.
21:26:02 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: But it's possible that it's the ones that are final and will not change that are the Knuthesquest, which are currently probably vol 5 of Computers and Typesetting and the Stanford Graphbase and the MMIXware source code.
21:26:20 <wob_jonas> I'm unclear about the exact statements to which each of these are frozen.
21:40:02 <arseniiv> a Knuthesque book is not always by Knuth himself, can there exist someone Knuther at least at some short intervals of time?
21:40:13 <arseniiv> and write an article
21:42:35 <wob_jonas> I think the definition of MMIX was frozen long ago, but I don't know how much the MMIXware source code itself is. "https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/abcde.html" says that the TeX and METAFONT source code shall be frozen and "correct by definition" when Knuth dies, but it's possible that they are already in the final state except for the ve
21:42:35 <wob_jonas> rsion number.
21:43:48 <wob_jonas> It also says that at that time "their version numbers ultimately become $\pi$ and $e$, respectively" but I'm not sure what that implies for the startup message of tex and mf which show the version number.
21:45:13 <wob_jonas> Would the ultimate version after Knuth's death have to display all decimal digits of pi and e at startup? All until it's interrupted so from that point on you need an interrupt or some nonstandard mechanism to avoid an infinite loop every time you start tex or metafont, even before it starts reading its input file?
21:45:15 <zzo38> As var as I can tell it displays "$\pi$" and "$e$", from the change files I have seen
21:45:28 <zzo38> Rather than in decimal
21:45:29 <wob_jonas> I see.
21:46:51 <wob_jonas> Does the version number have any other effect on TeX and metafont core, like a builtin parameter/macro that tells the version number?
21:47:08 <zzo38> No, there aren't any such things.
21:47:36 <zzo38> TeX files are meant to continue to be compatible even if the file is very strange.
21:48:24 <wob_jonas> true
21:48:54 <wob_jonas> so the only change will be the startup message and possibly some other mentions of the version number in Computers and Typesetting
21:49:18 <zzo38> Yes, if Computers and Typesetting is even updated after that.
21:50:05 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if he's made patch files for the source code, he might also have patch files for the TeX source code of Computers and Typesetting that he's given to the publisher
21:50:31 <zzo38> Yes, maybe
21:50:47 <wob_jonas> or perhaps rather to someone else he trusts, because publisher are dumb
21:52:31 <zzo38> Yes, possibly
22:02:44 <wob_jonas> It is also possible that some of Knuth's less significant books are the final version.
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22:48:31 <wob_jonas> Hmm, wait. Above I said "Possiblyi it's always the last completed one, so currently TAOCP vol 4A" but that's wrong, the most recently published work by Knuth is currently Fantasia Apocalyptica, with the first stable version officially released on his 80th birthday, definitely after TAOCP vol 4A.
22:48:45 <wob_jonas> So that's another candidate for the Knuthiest
22:49:09 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: ^
22:49:56 <wob_jonas> does that count as a book? Knuth has published the sheet music, and if you printed all of it, it would form a book.
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22:58:42 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: oh, a music? interesting
22:59:06 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, Knuth's first nontrivial original music composition
22:59:06 <arseniiv> (organ music probably?)
22:59:13 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, organ music
22:59:25 <arseniiv> nontrivial… now I’m curious
22:59:35 <zzo38> My guess too is organ music
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23:01:17 <wob_jonas> arseniiv, zzo38: see my short summary at the top of https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Sheet_music_for_Fantasia_Apocalyptica if you want to know what Fantasia Apocaliptica is; it links to Knuth's webpage about it, which is longer
23:01:37 <wob_jonas> Hmm, that has a typo.
23:13:09 <arseniiv> wow ~80 minutes
23:13:18 <arseniiv> indeed seems Knuthesque
23:13:36 <arseniiv> I’ll maybe take a hear at it tomorrow
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23:14:25 <arseniiv> I don’t listen to organ music usually, but it should be assessed
23:14:52 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: thank you as always
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23:30:22 <zzo38> Apparently they have ID3, although SoX just displays a warning message about it and ignores it (the music still plays, though). For chapter 1, instead it mentions a chunk with a strange name and 4239522857 bytes long.
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23:46:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Blacksilver * New user account
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23:51:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57508&oldid=57506 * Blacksilver * (+262) Hi, I'm Blacksilver!
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23:53:08 <Blacksilver> o7
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23:59:27 <arseniiv> `welcome Blacksilver
23:59:29 <HackEso> Blacksilver: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
2018-09-03
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00:05:30 <esowiki> [[The Esoteric File Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57509&oldid=42081 * Blacksilver * (+87) I made a mirror! Table to hold it and any future mirrors.
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00:08:35 <esowiki> [[User:Blacksilver]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57510 * Blacksilver * (+83) Does the IRC hook ignore User pages?
00:08:42 <Blacksilver> Yes, yes it does
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00:26:08 <arseniiv> Blacksilver: I’m quite new here and I haven’t used that archive so I can’t properly appreciate what you did, but as the channel is still right now, someone should say probably this is great!
00:27:26 <Blacksilver> 5-minute virtualhost setup on an existing Apache VM. It's nothing.
00:28:10 <Blacksilver> I wonder if we can get the esofiles stored in one of those nuke-hardened bunkers in Switzerland...
00:28:38 <Blacksilver> Companies use them as data vaults.
00:31:39 <Blacksilver> More related: I'm trying to do code golf in EXAPUNKS.
00:32:07 <Blacksilver> I think that qualifies as Esoteric.
00:48:15 <Blacksilver> "esopunks"
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01:59:11 <zzo38> I found that in SQLite, the xBegin method is not called (even though a transaction has started) if a CREATE VIRTUAL TABLE statement is executed. If you are connecting to an existing virtual table then xBegin is called when a transaction with that virtual table is started.
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04:15:11 <zzo38> How to make a phonetic writing that is not limited to human physiology and maybe not even limited to a possible kind?
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11:14:19 <wob_jonas> So, I no longer even constantly feel a nagging sensation that there's a wound in my mouth, but there's still a wound, so now I want to eat meals and want to chew it on both sides, but have to constantly spend conscious effort to only chew in the right hand side of my mouth and don't let food touch the wound.
11:15:47 <Taneb> That sounds frustrating
11:16:13 <wob_jonas> Also, there's an annoying fishing line knot in my mouth that I keep constantly feeling, but I must resist my reflex to try to move it with the inside of my cheek or my tongue. And I can't even use a chewing gum to redirect my mouth movements, because that would be worse, then I'd have to make sure to only chew the chewing gum on the right hand side
11:16:13 <wob_jonas> of my mouth.
11:19:33 <wob_jonas> It's possible that I might not wait the two weeks (starting from Friday which was the day of the operation) for my next visit to the dentist (she's not just a dentist, but I can't type maxillofacial surgeon) to remove the stitch, but ask my brother to remove it early next week, for by that time the wound will have healed enough that the stitch is n
11:19:33 <wob_jonas> o longer necessary.
11:31:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that sounds like how sqlite delays opening the file that backs up the database to as late as possible, in order that certain pragmas can take effect. This was especially important back when they didn't have the crazy URL syntax to open files with options, but IMO the url syntax is a mistake and options should be provided with pragmas anyway.
11:36:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: it's possible that this is because the CREATE VIRTUAL TABLE statements are stored in the database schema, and when the schema is parsed, there might be an interdependence between the virtual tables, so it's worth to delay virtual tables to as late as possible.
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12:35:28 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2663524/sorted-sort-of/
12:35:29 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
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14:15:06 <zzo38> Not all options could use pragmas; ATTACH opens the database and reports any errors immediately, so the VFS to use (and any VFS options needed at time to open) needs to be specified in the ATTACH command. Still some options for the VFS that can be changed after it is opened, can be specified by pragmas (a VFS can only override pragmas after the file is open, anyways).
14:20:19 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, why does ATTACH do that? the semantics rule is that a bare table/view name without an attach name before it refers to the table in the earliest database, so a new ATTACH can't cause to reinterpret statements that were already working.
14:23:13 <zzo38> I don't know why, but I have tried it.
14:23:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in any case, there are a few things you can only do by opening something as the primary database (namely setting the directory for the master journal for cross-database atomic commits) and I think there are some global settings that you may have set before you act on any database
14:24:53 <zzo38> Still, the VFS can only implement pragmas if the file is open.
14:29:00 <zzo38> Maybe the URL syntax is a mistake, but then other syntax may be needed to specify what VFS to use for a attached database
14:38:06 <wob_jonas> zzo38: technically you could implement global pragmas from a VFS wrapper to set the default options for the next databases to be opened, but that's not a very good idea for a VFS to do
14:39:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: but the VFS layer could define a pragma to tell which VFS to activate for opening a file
14:39:49 <wob_jonas> I dunno
14:39:55 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure how all this should work.
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14:46:26 <zzo38> I don't know either, but for compatibility it can be kept how it is.
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15:13:36 <arseniiv> zzo38: How to make a phonetic writing that is not limited to human physiology and maybe not even limited to a possible kind? => seems too unconstrained a task
15:14:18 <arseniiv> non-human-like alien phonetics could be almost anything, I think
15:14:32 <arseniiv> with any system
15:15:50 <arseniiv> then you could try to do something with acoustic side of phonetics, not with articulatory one — at least acoustics is common to us all
15:16:30 <arseniiv> …if the language is an acoustic one
15:17:31 <arseniiv> and also there are still variables like audible frequency range
15:18:47 <arseniiv> but many contemporary human phonetic writing systems are based more on articulation and less on acoustics
15:19:23 <arseniiv> (e. g. IPA)
15:24:37 <zzo38> I assume it is still with sounds, at least
15:38:09 <arseniiv> ah, also we can try to enumerate various ways in which sound can be produced, and especially inside the specified alien
15:42:21 <arseniiv> then we could envision their articulatory system and finally go the way out phonetics gone — investigate what can and can’t combine with what and get something IPA-like (but IPA is far from completely describing our articulatory abilities, it focuses mainly on those used in known languages, and there is an extension to IPA adding something about “speech impairment”, as they say it)
15:42:49 <arseniiv> this way is not generic, obviously, though
15:43:34 <arseniiv> I bet one can’t systematize all the possible results in a humane fashion
15:43:49 <zzo38> They have the grid of sounds and not all of the combinations are filled in.
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15:50:36 <john_metcalf> Hi, has anyone got a copy of the paper "Is it alive, or is it GA?" by Thomas Ray? I can't find a copy online :-(
15:51:46 <zzo38> I do not have it
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16:09:49 <arseniiv> zzo38: They have the grid of sounds and not all of the combinations are filled in. => ah, this should be not hard then
16:12:11 <arseniiv> let that grid have N dimensions, then you could assemble each glyph from N parts. Then you could mutate these glyphs, for example when some parts occur together, they can be drawn in other way; etc. etc.?
16:12:52 <zzo38> Yes, I have considered that actually and once drawn them on a paper, so then they could be made using METAFONT
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16:31:13 <zzo38> I consider because, I play a GURPS game but my character is not human character so how to figure their speech? Presumably due to many languages redundancy you can still understand the speech if you are speeching English even though it is not perfectly the proper sound.
16:33:31 <zzo38> Do you know how to do that though?
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17:00:31 <arseniiv> afraid I don’t understand what is meant precisely. How do other characters figure their speech, how should one render it when describing what is happening in English, or something else? For the second, there’s a great deal of freedom: we could write simply “<intended meaning>”, probably adding some alien concepts in that meaning, or write verbatim/transcribe (possibly both at the same time as in “and then he said привет
17:00:31 <arseniiv> <hi>”), and maybe other ways. For the first, it’s a story how people (or other entities) learn/know languages. Also two languages could be very near and often understandable (bot sometimes not really) by speakers of each another, they may enjoy being rendered as e. g. two distant English dialects
17:02:17 <zzo38> It isn't usually relevant, but sometimes you like to do anyways, because sometimes might be relevant. Once there was a Latin inscription, and so I wrote it in Latin as well as English.
17:02:36 <zzo38> But Latin is not the only language in use.
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19:11:48 <wob_jonas> Don't you love it when two organizations are implementing the two sides of supposedly the same interface, but they disagree in what the details of the interface are and interpret them in slightly incompatible ways, and each of them insist that they know what the interface is because they use it a lot and I don't?
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19:15:20 <zzo38> Do you have the example?
19:16:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, but this example is a bit complicated to explain, because it's not in informatics, but in bureaucracy with rules mostly invented by government organizations.
19:18:36 <wob_jonas> I buy stuff, the vendor gives me a receipt saying what I bought and how much I payed for it and some other stuff, the format of the receipt is controlled by government rules, then I give this receipt to an organization and then I get a reduction on my income tax,
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19:20:05 <wob_jonas> and the party that prints the bill has some idea on what format the receipt has, which is enforced partly by the computer program they use, partly by the employee sitting at the keyboard, and the organization receiving the bill has an idea on the format of the receipt, and they don't exactly match. I think in this case it's not a hard error, only t
19:20:06 <wob_jonas> he receipt I got doesn't match the best practices according to the receiver, but it's still acceptible, but I'm not sure.
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19:24:28 <wob_jonas> Sometimes you get similar problems between software libraries (or hardware components, but I don't work with those).
19:27:04 <wob_jonas> Also, I realized that the uncommon Hungarian compound word "házhozszállítás" has z+sz in it. Now I wonder what are the most common words that have zs+z, but that's probably rarer.
19:27:49 * Blacksilver pokes ISO
19:28:33 <wob_jonas> "házszám" also has z+sz, and it's probably more common than "házhozszállítás"
19:31:49 <wob_jonas> z+s and sz+s are in some even more common uncommon words, mostly derivatives of "igazság" and "egészség" resp, but many others. s+zs is in "szemeteszsák", which I usually write is "szemetes-zsák" despite that the academy rules forbid that
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20:08:38 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57511 * Blacksilver * (+588) Basically just duplicated the manual...
20:08:51 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57512 * Blacksilver * (+1992) [Subpage]
20:13:10 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57513&oldid=57512 * Blacksilver * (+0) Typo...
20:16:54 <zzo38> What example might you make up of a word of a alien concepts?
20:18:18 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the style for those words rather depends on the writing style of the author or franchise
20:18:49 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you want examples of well-known words from fiction?
20:18:53 <zzo38> Ah, I suppose, although I am the author for now
20:19:00 <zzo38> Give whatever examples you know
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20:19:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you have a setting in mind? like some sort of sci-fi with extraterrestrial aliens (Star Trek), space fantasy (eg. Star Wars), something else?
20:20:07 <zzo38> It is actually a role playing game
20:20:26 <wob_jonas> zzo38: https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/ and https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ and their chatrooms can help a lot in this, the latter if the setting is sci-fi or fantasy
20:21:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ok, but role-playing game in what sort of universe? mediaeval magical fantasy? how alien are the aliens? just LotR or D&D elves? LotR or D&D orcs and goblins and trolls and ents? buglike aliens with human mind from a nearby star? modern theme park versions of chthulu mythos?
20:22:13 <Blacksilver> Search up Artifexian on Youtube, he has great conlang and worldbuilding videos.
20:23:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if it's similar to D&D settings, and you don't want well-known examples but a random model for potentially new words, then http://www.d20srd.org/fantasy/name/ can help.
20:23:47 <zzo38> It is GURPS and it is mediaeval, including old Lsd money.
20:23:54 <wob_jonas> Reading similar existing books or other fiction always helps of course.
20:24:11 <wob_jonas> Lsd?
20:24:41 <Blacksilver> LASERDISK, obviously.
20:24:52 <zzo38> "Lsd" is a Latin abbreviation for "pounds, shillings, pence"
20:24:59 <wob_jonas> ah right
20:25:28 <wob_jonas> that system that's derived from the even worse ancient roman currency system
20:27:15 <wob_jonas> I wasn't familiar with the abbreviation, only the concept. (I know "NIS" and "ILS" are abbreviations for the same currency though.)
20:27:31 <zzo38> O, there are other abbreviations too
20:27:50 <wob_jonas> sure. there's always lots of abbreviations.
20:27:59 <Blacksilver> Fun fact: The latin root for "Salary" is "Sal", meaning Salt. Because roman soldiers were paid in salt.
20:28:14 <zzo38> Yes, I knew that
20:28:16 <Blacksilver> So many wasted neurons.
20:31:15 <wob_jonas> There are some common patterns that make them conflict a lot too: there are a lot of three or four letter English abbreviations with "o" in the middle standing for "of", lots of Hungarian government-institution-related abbreviations starting with "M" for "Magyar" or lately "N" for "Nemzeti" (these are just single letters, so worse than the old syst
20:31:15 <wob_jonas> em of calling everything "K&K" for "Kaiser und König")
20:32:07 <wob_jonas> (there were some socialist system abbreviations in between, but the names for them have been purged since, so I'm familiar with only a few)
20:42:26 <zzo38> I can describe how is my character (named Ziveruskex (sometimes abbreviated as Ziv, sort of like Lempel-Ziv-Welch)) (and his friend, named Strixan) is like, in case they would explain the language to someone who can know such thing
20:43:44 <shachaf> What do Lempel and Welch have to do with it?
20:43:55 <zzo38> Nothing; it is just a similar name
20:44:11 <arseniiv> zzo38: alien concepts. E. g. aliens have usually marriages of three individuals and behavioral roles in these marriages are traditionally distinct and have their names and these are better to not translate lest to make a misunderstanding
20:44:59 <zzo38> Yes, some things are difficult to translate (even among similar languages actually; such alien concepts will therefore be even more difficult)
20:48:31 <zzo38> They have five eyes, can see five colours (rather than three, that human do), antennas, scales, feathers, wings to fly, four fingers instead of five, sharp beak, and also a breath attack, and can eat blood
20:49:11 <arseniiv> five color channels are neat
20:49:41 <zzo38> Yes, therefore the word for the colours will be difference, even some thing that might seem same if you can see three colours, seem to difference instead.
20:50:15 <int-e> 5 acoustic sensors, and 3 vocal organs; language depends on subtle interferences that need 4 functioning sensors to discern reliably
20:52:31 <int-e> You can make this arbitrarily complex. (This idea arose from an earlier question about a universal "IPA"; with wild thoughts like these you may have to record full 3D wave functions to capture all audible signals.)
20:53:21 <Blacksilver> Could be interesting to make a species that is 5-way symmetric.
20:53:40 <zzo38> Blacksilver: Yes, you could try to do that too
20:53:45 <arseniiv> I’m a star I’m a star
20:54:03 <arseniiv>
20:54:26 <int-e> `? *
20:54:27 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
20:54:54 <wob_jonas> int-e: 5 acoustic sensors => humans have 5.1 ears too according to the people who sold all those home movie sets that were so fashionable ten years ago (and the period in "5.1" has the same significance as the one in "8.3 char long filenames on FAT"
20:55:02 <int-e> `` ln -s \* wisdom/☆
20:55:04 <HackEso> No output.
20:55:43 <int-e> wob_jonas: well, we have two ears and we wander around (which I believe is the real selling point of more than 2 channels)
20:56:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: you don't wander around when you're sitting on a couch watching a movie, except perhaps for getting up for more pop-corn from the kitchen
20:56:29 <int-e> that said... I have two small speakers in front of me :P
20:56:33 <Blacksilver> 2 speakers would work if people didn't turn their heads.
20:57:13 <Blacksilver> If the sound is supposed to be coming from behind you, you don't notice if you're facing the tv.
20:57:27 <Blacksilver> But if you turn your head 90 degrees it breaks the illusion.
20:57:39 <Blacksilver> Hence you need speakers behind the listeners
20:57:43 <int-e> makes sense. but then I can no longer see the monitor
20:58:07 <int-e> in any case it's a better explanation than wandering around, thanks
20:58:15 <Blacksilver> You can detect the forward/back even if you turn you head a little bit. Brains are good at that sort of thing.
20:59:34 <int-e> Hmm... so are people making headphones with location/orientation sensors?
20:59:36 <Blacksilver> You can sometimes do it without moving your head because of how the sound bounces off the walls or something.
20:59:53 <Blacksilver> I wouldn't be surprised. Wouldn't be *too* hard.
21:00:27 <Blacksilver> Gyroscope, acceleromoter, some clever algorithms.
21:00:29 <zzo38> I have two external speakes on my computer but sometimes only one of them works
21:00:38 <wob_jonas> 3 vocal organs is harder, but you could argue that singing plus a guitar is common, then the mouth cavity and the nose cavity are separate resonators, or your vocal cords in your larynx for normal speech and your stomach for barfing and your buttock for farting are separate reeds for starting a vibration, or that people use their hands for clapping
21:00:38 <wob_jonas> and sometimes various beatbox effects, or that drummers play on half a dozen different drums.
21:03:21 <wob_jonas> "language depends on subtle interferences that need 4 functioning sensors to discern reliably" => now that's the kind of complexity we only reached after the second world war, with GPS receivers and mobile phones and astronomy instruments and near field electron microscopes and gravitational wave detectors and other such complicated devices,
21:03:23 <int-e> well if drums count you should consider an organ
21:03:55 <wob_jonas> and in these, the processing of those interferences is done autonomously, much more so than when someone plays a guitar or drum the traditional way.
21:04:37 <wob_jonas> so the human definitely isn't the one who decodes the four functioning sensors together.
21:05:43 <wob_jonas> Sometimes people get information from vision and hearing, or vision and hearing and smells, or vision and touch etc combined, but I don't think that it's ever "subtle interferences that need 4 functioning sensors to discern reliably"
21:07:41 <int-e> Well it was supposed to be an alien idea :P
21:07:47 <wob_jonas> hmm... perhaps if you counted three types of color sensor cells in each of humans' two eyes, sometimes combined with switching some color or polarization filter or lens, to make a visual image of something, and the processing done by the human brain alone
21:09:02 <arseniiv> I like how GPS design needs to consider Relativity (all^W both of them! — effects of gravitational potential and high velocity are comparable in magnitude). Of course it could be designed using empirical time dilation observations, but it’s better to have them some base
21:09:18 <wob_jonas> Like when I noticed that (it's hard to play the rubik cube because two of the stickers appear nearly the same color) iff ((I'm under old yellow halogen street lights) or (in the cheaper LED lighting of the carriages of the M4 metro and I'm wearing my brown color filtering sunglasses))
21:10:05 <int-e> sodium vapor lamps are the worst in that regard :P
21:10:12 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: GPS design needs to consider a lot of things. it's a wonder it works. it needs an accurate time based maintained by clocks on the satellites synchronizing to ridiculously precise atomic clocks on Earth,
21:10:14 <arseniiv> brown color filtering seems something hi-tech
21:10:47 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: indeed a wonder. I marvel at such technological advances
21:11:40 <wob_jonas> and since there are now four different GPS-like satellite positioning systems and they are maintained by four different secretive government organizations, I wonder if they could get into an accidental dependence loop when each of them trusts time or location readings of one of the other and results in a runaway unstable error.
21:13:38 <wob_jonas> they also need to measure all sorts of anomalies in the gravitational fields of Earth indirectly to figure out the trajectories of the satellites, plus tectonic movements to figure out the trajectory of ground-based stations. it's horribly complicated, and another possible source of dependence loop among different secretive organizations.
21:16:07 <wob_jonas> And then of course all the ground stations use modern digital processors and other huge integrated circuits that are horribly complicated to create, and are designed by americans who then manufactured by east asians and both of them can introduce subtle backdoors that are impossible to discover and could cause basically arbitrary behavior changes.
21:17:39 <wob_jonas> Dedicated hackers with lots of free time have reverse engineered basically the entire design of the MOS 6502 chip, but that only has a few thousand transistors and the entire layout was designed by one genius person.
21:20:33 <wob_jonas> But these days, CPUs are much more complicated. Intel and AMD and ARM deliberately provide enough technical info about some parts of the CPU so that some dedicated reverse engineers like Agner Fog still make independent discoveries about the newest models, but it's well known that it's easy to add such subtle backdoors that are impossible to discov
21:20:33 <wob_jonas> er unless you know some hidden information, and with some ingenuity, it's also possible to install backdoors that are plausibly deniable even if some super-intelligence who can reverse-engineered the entire CPU and discovered it as a bug.
21:20:48 <wob_jonas> s/ation, and with/ation; and with/
21:22:26 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: it's expensive, mostly because this type of high refraction index Zeiss glass lens is already expensive and there's lower demand for the tinted sunglass version.
21:24:12 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: but I don't think the brown color filtering itself is very high tech. grinding the glass lenses to an assymetric shape, that's high tech. all the fancy giant optical astronomical telescope mirrors and lenses and all the expensive camera lenses are all ground to spherically symmetric, which is easy.
21:25:23 <wob_jonas> glass isn't easy to shape to an exact shape that is smooth in the ten nanometer sclae.
21:26:55 <wob_jonas> that's, like, a hundred atoms.
21:28:46 <wob_jonas> plastic and silicone lenses (used in cheaper eyeglass lenses and all contacts) are easy compared to that, because you can mold them and reshape them after heating, instead of just grinding.
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21:30:51 <wob_jonas> though admittedly, contact lenses are made of particularly tricky kind of polymer materials.
21:31:13 <wob_jonas> well, most modern contact lenses.
21:31:32 <wob_jonas> not those torture instruments that were in use thirty years ago on actors.
21:32:31 <wob_jonas> but women's self-torture fashion accessories don't get better, they just invent some new fashion as soon as a less painful replacement for an older effect is found.
21:33:02 <wob_jonas> I always laugh on stereotypic women's footwear
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22:18:57 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: that was a joke, like, “brown color filtering sunglasses” can be parsed as a “((brown color) filtering) sunglasses” i. e. sunglasses that filter brown color (which is semantically funny too) :)
22:19:36 <zzo38> The computer should be made that does not have too much complicated
22:23:50 <rain1> hey
22:23:57 <rain1> youknow the trusting trust infected compiler idea?
22:24:08 <rain1> there is 'rotten' scheme compiler which is a real example of it
22:24:11 <rain1> are there any other examples?
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22:25:16 <zzo38> I don't know?
22:25:31 <rain1> and are there any examples of 2 compilers where it infects both compilers
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22:30:44 <rain1> you can think of the infected binary as having inside it 2 different infection genetic codes, and it acts as a multi-quine depending on who compiles it
22:33:14 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: nah, sorry. brown tinted sunglasses that only have a color filter, no polarization filter
22:33:56 <wob_jonas> well, they also have an interference-based anti-reflection coating, but so do my normal lenses. but definitely no polarization.
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22:36:33 <wob_jonas> by normal, I mean the non-tinted ones in my glasses that aren't sunglasses. they're still similar expensive Zeiss glass lenses, and these days they're the kind that are produced on-demand (rather than produced in advance and stored until someone orders the lens) with 1.8 reflective index, although I only settled on this type of glass a few years ag
22:36:33 <wob_jonas> o.
22:36:58 <arseniiv> rain1: I heard about a Delphi (old days, v7 and alike) package virus that inserted itself in package binaries and then if a program compiled with them arrived on a computer with another Delphi instance, the virus copied itself in its packages etc.
22:37:25 <arseniiv> don’t remember specifics
22:38:39 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: are you sure the compilation itself was involved? didn't it just infect files using the standard library that programs compiled by that compiler were normally linked to?
22:39:06 <rain1> :O interesting
22:39:24 <wob_jonas> involving the compiler is possible, but seems unnecessary. attaching to a library, on the other hand, can make the virus simpler and less prone of errors
22:39:39 <rain1> i like the idea for the simpler virus
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22:41:25 <wob_jonas> The marketing name for the type of these lenses, in case it matters, is "ZEISS SV Sph Min 1.8 with Super Filter ET" for the normal glasses, and "ZEISS SV Sph Min 1.8 with Umbra SE 85%" for the sunglasses.
22:43:05 <wob_jonas> I tried lenses with even higher reflective index, but they have a problem with breaking up colors everywhere except the center of the lens, which is still present with this type but to a lesser amount.
22:44:56 <wob_jonas> Also some of the lenses have a shape distortion near their sides that makes it very hard to synchronize the image from the two eyes and get proper binocular vision (not even seeing distances, just seeing the same object from both my eyes),
22:45:26 <wob_jonas> but it's not clear if this is influenced by the higher reflective index or more the distance and angle of the lens from my eyes which depends on the shape of the frame.
22:46:18 <wob_jonas> In any case, I'll probably try contact lenses (again for the third time after two failed attempts lots of years ago) next year. Contact lenses give much better visuals than eyeglasses:
22:47:56 <wob_jonas> they're very close to my cornea and lens so they don't shrink the size of objects by ten or twenty percents, so everything is bigger and so better, they have much fewer shape or color distortion, and the center of the lens, which always has fewer distortions, moves as I rotate my eyes.
22:49:26 <wob_jonas> Back when I tried the first and second time, they already gave an arguably nicer image for objects close to me, and a clearly sharper image for objects far from me, and that was back when contact lenses with cylindrical distortion weren't available.
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22:51:38 <wob_jonas> So for people like me with an almost strong myopia and some astigmatism, contact lenses should give a much better vision.
22:54:05 <wob_jonas> The problem is that I found contact lenses uncomfortable to wear. That has three potential causes. One is that contact lenses back then genuinely were worse than they are now, so that will be partly fixed by modern contact lenses. The second is that I have dry and irritated eyes due to spending lots of time in front of a computer monitor, and
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22:55:38 <wob_jonas> that will be partly fixed by that I will now try daily contact lenses (that is, ones you throw away after one use, rather than cleaning) and wear them only occasionally, not all the time, so mostly not when I'm sitting in front of the computer. The third is that my myopia is caused by too long eyeballs, and because of that, the curvature of my eyeb
22:55:39 <wob_jonas> all and especially the part with the iris is strong, so contact lenses don't fit on it easily.
23:03:10 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: yeah, it injected itself into standard packages
23:03:29 <arseniiv> no compilation needed
23:07:40 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: admittedly hooking into the operating system kernel or the on-disk OS part of the boot loader is even easier, since those were often even more standard than some compiler libraries.
23:08:14 <wob_jonas> or hooking into something in 16-bit Windows
23:08:46 <wob_jonas> something that gets ran in practically every installation of the target version of Windows or versions close to it
23:10:26 <wob_jonas> although the Windows ones need some other component to spread, because people rarely copy their windows installations, so that's not a good idea
23:10:51 <wob_jonas> it works as a worm that survives reboots, but not as a virus
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23:15:23 <wob_jonas> Hi ais523. I was just ranting about my vision problems and corrective eyeglasses and contacts, which I probably understand somewhat; plus butted in a little about old PC viruses, which I really don't know much about.
23:15:47 <ais523> I probably know more about old PC viruses than your vision problems
23:15:57 <ais523> I remember, many many years ago, reading the virus descriptions in a virus database for fun
23:17:42 <ais523> actual computer viruses are incredibly rare nowadays
23:18:06 <Blacksilver> Until a security hole comes out, then we get a bunch at once.
23:18:09 <ais523> because modifying executables is a) very difficult, b) pretty much always unnecessary given modern computers' complexities
23:18:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, although the one that was mentioned above was an honest to goodness virus, supposedly
23:18:24 <ais523> Blacksilver: you get hacks, worms, malware generally
23:18:32 <ais523> but a virus is a specific sort of that, one that's almost entirely died out
23:18:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: these days it's much easier to install trojans through all sorts of internet services
23:18:55 <ais523> a virus is malware that works by modifying executables to run the malware code when executed (instead of or in addition to their own code)
23:19:01 <Blacksilver> Oh, viruses specifically, not including trojans and worms and stuff.
23:20:11 <wob_jonas> rain1: Andy Weir's web-original short story "Twarrior" http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/twarrior.html has a passing mention of a compiler hack
23:20:21 <rain1> omg thanks
23:20:35 <wob_jonas> rain1: it's fictional though
23:20:41 <wob_jonas> it's a piece of fiction short story
23:20:47 <wob_jonas> so don't get your hopes up
23:21:00 <rain1> https://www.teamten.com/lawrence/writings/coding-machines/
23:21:04 <rain1> il read it now and
23:21:07 <rain1> this was also fun..
23:21:09 <ais523> re: the trusting trust discussion earlier, it struck me a while ago that an interesting esoproject would be to create a compiler chain starting from first principles, and starting on a system that's not complex enough to contain AI-complete exploits in the hardware
23:22:15 <rain1> yeah! some fellows are trying to do that for GNU Guix
23:22:21 <rain1> https://bootstrapping.miraheze.org/wiki/Mes
23:22:30 <rain1> i like these bootstrapping projects
23:22:36 <rain1> there are a few , but they dont all go so far
23:22:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: I was also complaining about a case when a government-related agency defines one side of an interface, and a store with its computer software and training of the workers defines the other side of an interface, they're supposed to be compatible but there seems to be a subtle difference (hopefully it's not a hard error, just not following bes
23:22:52 <wob_jonas> t practice recommendations),
23:23:26 <wob_jonas> and I can't do anything because both of them are rightly convinced that they've been using this interface for years in thousands of cases and I'm new to it so they know the interface better and don't have to believe me.
23:23:42 <ais523> well, my router's understanding of USB is apparently so far from standard that if I try to use it over USB, the Linux kernel resets it repeatedly because of all the standards violations
23:24:03 <ais523> and yet it's still somehow being sold for the general public
23:24:12 <wob_jonas> At least there's a power unbalance, because the government side has the right to define the interface, so in the worst case I can convince the store by getting proof from the government side.
23:24:15 <ais523> (luckily it works over wi-fi too, ethernet-over-USB is pretty niche as technology goes anyway)
23:24:38 <wob_jonas> In some other situations, especially in software, it's not clear which side gets to define the interface, in which case there's not much you can do.
23:25:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, why is your router connected by USB?
23:25:21 <wob_jonas> oh, ethernet-over-USB
23:25:38 <ais523> it's too physically small to fit an ethernet port on it
23:25:41 <ais523> so it uses micro-USB instead
23:25:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: which generation of USB? USB3/3.1 or USB1/2?
23:25:51 <ais523> not sure, it doesn't get that far :-P
23:26:01 <ais523> probably 2 though based on how old it is
23:27:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: pity. if it were 3, you could try force-downgrading to USB 2 and possibly not lose bandwidth if you only need the bandwidth of an internet connection, although these days I think internet connections in the UK can be pretty fast.
23:27:36 <wob_jonas> "it doesn't get that far" -- that means it's USB 2, because I think USB 3 is bootstrapped through USB 1/2
23:27:49 <ais523> re: reverse-engineering the 6502, it was decapped, which is more like reading the source code than reverse-engineering
23:27:58 <ais523> you can look at the traces on the chip and see where the transistors are
23:28:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: have you tried plugging it into another USB port of the computer? that works better in practice than it should according to theory.
23:28:26 <ais523> and there are emulators that emulate the individual transistors
23:28:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: I've tried it on multiple different computers
23:28:58 <ais523> not only that, but a Linux kernel dev inspected a usbtrace and said that what the device was doing is completely broken
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23:29:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes. but then they actually figured out most part what each transistor did, with the help of the lot of earlier information about the behavior discovered earlier.
23:30:03 * ais523 suddenly realises that physical hardware normally doesn't have comments
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23:30:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's still possible to decap the 6502 and look at some of the low-level electronics, you just need to separate more layers and a view with more expensive microscopes (but microscope technology keeps improving, we now have near-field microscopes to overcome the barrier of the frequency of the scanning wave, and stuff like electron-microscope
23:30:48 <wob_jonas> s using hadrons),
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23:31:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's still possible to decap the 6502 and look at some of the low-level electronics, you just need to separate more layers and a view with more expensive microscopes (but microscope technology keeps improving, we now have near-field microscopes to overcome the barrier of the frequency of the scanning wave, and stuff like electron-microscope
23:31:21 <wob_jonas> s using hadrons),
23:31:41 <ais523> nowadays I normally have the logs open in stalker mode while I'm on IRC
23:31:41 <wob_jonas> only the electronics is so huge that it'd be very hard to scan it all, and almost impossible to understand it all.
23:31:45 <ais523> so if I have to reconnect I see what I've missed
23:31:57 <wob_jonas> stalker. ok
23:31:57 <ais523> (and also what failed to get through)
23:32:13 <ais523> it's like a bouncer except with many fewer moving parts
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23:32:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: larger pieces or more amateur physical HW often have comments, sometimes in the form of debugging connections, sometimes readable letters printed in ink or drawn in wires on the circuit board. a CPU probably has very few of those.
23:33:53 <ais523> motherboards still often have the components labelled, don't they?
23:33:53 <wob_jonas> even larger pieces can have all sorts of written tags attached, stickers and little plastic number tags, plus lots of useful coding conventions like physical arrangements and conventional colors of wires
23:33:58 <Blacksilver> There's nothing physically stopping the PCB from having lettering written in lines that aren't connected to anything. The manufacturer doesn't charge for the amount of stuff etched.
23:34:03 <ais523> presumably to help reduce errors in assembly
23:34:05 <wob_jonas> just don't trust the conventions too much or you can get misled
23:34:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: larger components, yes.
23:34:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: some components are so small it's hard to fit a label that people can see.
23:34:33 <ais523> Blacksilver: technically speaking the more copper there is on the board the cheaper it is, because you need less acid to dissolve the unused copper from the blanks
23:35:00 <ais523> but that's balanced by the fact that putting unused areas of copper too close to used areas of copper tends to cause unwanted electromagnetic effects
23:35:31 <ais523> however, most circuit boards have a "silkscreen" layer which is basically just white ink that's printed onto the board, and I doubt most manufacturers charge for that by the pixel
23:35:47 <ais523> (and you'd want a silkscreen layer to put things like the manufacturer's name, copyright, etc.)
23:36:31 <ais523> some letters like K would also be hard to put down in copper, because the etching process works least well with acute angles at the edge of the non-copper region
23:36:48 <zzo38> What things might seem like same colours if you can see three colours but if you can see five colours (including near UV) then it seem like different colours?
23:37:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: Yeah, more than half of the time even photocopiers charge for the page rather than the ink, to keep accounting simpler, even though the ink costs might be a few times larger than the per-page maintenance cost.
23:37:10 <ais523> (in fact it's fairly common for circuit boards to use only 45 degree turns if they can help it, presumably to help reduce this effect further)
23:37:24 <wob_jonas> I have abused this by printing stuff on paper with large black areas.
23:37:27 <zzo38> Also, why does Firefox use the title of a webpage as the default filename instead of using the filename in the URL?
23:37:53 <ais523> zzo38: well, one example would be that most people can't distinguish between some greenish blue and some cyan because they both have the same effect on all three color channels, but if there were more color channels they might be distinguishable
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23:38:25 <ais523> zzo38: probably because some websites have a URL-filename scheme that's incredibly verbose and contains large amounts of junk data
23:38:32 <wob_jonas> zzo38: probably because there are so many server-side dynamic pages when the base filename part of the url is the same in lots of similar pages you want to save together. the title is sometimes the same too, but it might still be better.
23:38:42 <ais523> curl uses the URL-filename by default and it sometimes contains hundreds of bytes of hex or base64
23:39:05 <ais523> err, I meant wget, but it's probably the same for curl too
23:39:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: curl uses the URL filename if you use the -O command-line switch. it writes content to stdout by default. close enough. correct for wget.
23:39:50 <zzo38> Actually I find the filename in the URL is usually better, at least if it ends in .htm or .html it is usually better; if it ends in .php then neither the title nor the URL filename are suitable
23:40:20 <ais523> what if it ends in &.jpg?
23:40:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: for wget, it's actually hard to override this per url if you want to download multiple pages from the same server, which was my main motivation for making the wgetas script.
23:40:48 <ais523> (implying that the filename is made up of lots of query parameters, and then one was stuck on the end to give an extension)
23:41:09 <wob_jonas> ais523: browsers usually append a file extension if the normal one wouldn't be right
23:41:34 <ais523> yes
23:41:39 <ais523> sometimes people do that in URLs too though
23:42:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: the Stack Exchange chat parser is the only thing I've seen that pays attention to the "extension" at the end of a URL to guess whether it should try to download the URL and display it as an image. But the Stack Exchange parsers handling URLs is particularly stupid and annoying in multiple other ways.
23:42:44 <ais523> isn't that true about just about everything related to Stack Exchange's technology?
23:43:06 <wob_jonas> That extension thing can be considered a feature since it lets you override the default guess by appending a query parameter that the server ignores.
23:43:30 <wob_jonas> But it's only a "feature" as in a bug that lets you work around a worse bug.
23:43:46 <ais523> now I'm reminded of Wikipedia's use of text/css for serving text files
23:43:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: some of it at least.
23:44:00 <ais523> (because IE interprets text/plain as HTML if it looks like it might be)
23:44:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: lol
23:44:50 <wob_jonas> I rant about wikis and their formatting languages regularly here.
23:44:59 <wob_jonas> I had one some weeks ago.
23:45:07 <ais523> there was a successful XSS attack against the #esoteric logs once using that, all the <nick> notation made it look HTMLy enough to fit a <script>alert("test")</script> in there
23:45:23 <ais523> and IE actually ran it
23:45:33 <ais523> that was an older set of logs, though, I think the current set are HTML already
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23:46:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, is that related to the attack where some browser ran apparent javascript found in what's supposed to be an image file and ran it in local context so let it access local files?
23:46:37 <ais523> not sure but possibly
23:46:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: the current log has three formats, two of which are text
23:47:25 <wob_jonas> anyway, Firefox has some such format recognition magic too. they spread quickly to support broken webpages
23:47:45 <wob_jonas> yeah, https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08.html was my previous rant about wiki formatts
23:48:04 <ais523> well, Markdown is terrible for the purpose :-)
23:48:20 <zzo38> You can add a mention that the formatted text logs are not for use with Internet Explorer.
23:49:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: Markdown is the base. SE adds some additional levels of changes to the format.
23:49:52 <ais523> I meant wikis
23:50:06 <ais523> but SE Markdown doesn't even seem to have a general escaping rule
23:50:27 <ais523> that said, Github Flavored Markdown is just as bad
23:50:46 <zzo38> What format recognition stuff does Firefox do? In some cases the header of the file tell the difference for example it might treat image/gif as image/png if the header says it is PNG, but it should not treat text/plain as text/html or vice-versa. Treating text/plain as text/css might be helpful if the HTML elements specify that the file is CSS.
23:50:47 <ais523> I'm not sure if there's a way to produce the output <code>```</code> other than writing the code tags out manually
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23:51:06 <ais523> which means that you can't even express how to write Github Flavoured Markdown in Github Flavore Markdown
23:51:36 <zzo38> I know that in Markdown you can use plain text by starting with several tildes on one line; at least npm supports that.
23:52:22 <ais523> Markdown isn't really standardised at all
23:52:28 <ais523> there's Commonmark but I'm not sure anyone actually uses it
23:52:35 <zzo38> I think the MediaWiki format is better than Markdown
23:53:02 <ais523> and IIRC the original, markdown(1), is just a set of regexps or some similar architecture (i.e. there isn't even a parser)
23:54:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: SE format does have a general escaping rule AFAIK. ampersand-escaping key characters and representing line breaks as <br> works for all plain text modulo the HTML horizontal whitespace collapsing problem,
23:55:10 <ais523> oh right
23:55:18 <ais523> now I remember the whole &#20; thing
23:55:23 <ais523> err, &#x20;
23:55:32 <ais523> and I'm still not entirely sure on whether that's useful or not
23:55:32 <wob_jonas> which is familiar to many users because it also works on some other wikis
23:57:36 <ais523> that said, hex-escapes aren't very usable as most people don't have the ASCII code of characters like ` memorised
23:57:42 <ais523> (96, right?)
23:57:44 <ais523> `unidecode `
23:57:45 <HackEso> ​[U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT]
23:57:49 <ais523> yep
23:58:03 <wob_jonas> and in posts (questions or answers) and tag wikis (but not in comments or chat), for making hyperlinks, the [link text][a] with later [a]: http://example.example/ in separate line seems to work most of the time (I admit I haven't tried the abomination IPV6 address HTTP urls), and HTML tags work for most of the other formatting available
23:58:29 <zzo38> If you are on Linux (possibly Mac OS X too, although I have not tried it) you can also use "man ascii" for the ASCII table.
23:58:37 <ais523> zzo38: yes, I do that frequently
23:58:54 <ais523> ` is just one of the characters I happen to have memorised, because I know it comes just before a
23:58:54 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:58:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: meh, those most people should ask the ascii or unicode code of characters from their computers, they're good at memorizing those.
23:59:35 <wob_jonas> I don't know the code of all characters ever either, but know the code for many, and know all printable ascii if pressed.
2018-09-04
00:00:42 <wob_jonas> I know the code for many non-(ascii-printable) characters that I often write, and know some of the arrangement of blocks so I can guess the approximate code of some of the others.
00:00:52 <ais523> maybe people should learn the asciibet like they do the alphabet
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00:01:01 <ais523> I don't think I could even get as far as 0 though
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00:01:29 <ais523> there are probably people who have memorised Latin-1, but I doubt there are many of them
00:01:50 <ais523> I can't even remember which order the line-drawing characters in codepage 437 are in
00:02:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, all but the control chars are easy once you know the English alphabet and the US-ascii keyboard layout or any keyboard layout close to that.
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00:03:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: I tried to memorize the last 64 characters (mostly letters) of Latin-1, but so far failed, mostly because it largely depends on which characters Italian and Spanish and Portugese use, and I'm very ignorant at that.
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00:03:41 <ais523> as long as you remember which control character corresponds to which button sequence
00:03:41 <ais523> even the basics like "newline is Ctrl-J" aren't widely known
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00:03:46 <wob_jonas> I mean, that's part of the useful mnemonic.
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00:03:57 <ais523> <ais523> probably Ctrl-H for backspace and Ctrl-L for formfeed are the most famous
00:04:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, sure, I know the common ones. but do you even know the set of names of those ascii control characters?
00:04:33 <ais523> (Emacs displays formfeed as a red ^L, and manual formfeeds are fairly common in older text files)
00:04:36 <wob_jonas> I mean, do you approximately know every single name?
00:04:45 <wob_jonas> Because I don't.
00:05:01 <ais523> hmm, I quite possibly don't know all 32 but I know a fairly large proportion of them, just not necessarily what order they're in
00:05:02 <wob_jonas> I know what I use each control character for in many applications, but not the original ASCII control intentions.
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00:06:38 <wob_jonas> I know how many of them are used in ecma/vt102-like terminal escapes, know how they're used by the PC and DOS in text (except when keyboard scan codes get into text because of that strange DOS interface), and much of how they're used in wordstar, emacs, and vim,
00:07:30 <wob_jonas> which are together the ancestors of most modern control schemes that are based on a terminal character stream rather than an X11 keyboard or scan code or key code stream or anything like that.
00:07:38 <wob_jonas> I also know most of the nethack bindings.
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00:07:54 <ais523> the whole ecma-48 terminal set seems to be loosely based on ASCII? but not really
00:08:25 <ais523> it's based on ecma-35 which supports ASCII compatibility for printable characters, but I'm not sure if the change-encoding characters are consistent with the ASCII control codes
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00:08:55 <ais523> (I learned ecma-35 to write a re-encoder that converted ttyrecs to Unicode, it was interesting)
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00:09:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: the actual terminal control sequences, as used today, only use half of the control characters. most of those are based on the ascii or latin-1 control meaning (I think the latin-1 control meanings actually have a shared origin and were produced by ecma for use in terminals)
00:09:14 <ais523> I also learned about UTF-1 while doing this
00:09:57 <ais523> wob_jonas: do you mean "half" as in half of 0-31 or as in half of 0-31 + 128-159?
00:10:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: half of ascii, only one from latin1 actually used I think
00:10:53 <ais523> well CSI is by far the most famous C1 control character
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00:11:35 <ais523> (Ecma-35 supports ESC [ as a synonym for it, in case you're using a 7-bit connection, and this is the code that typically gets used in practice because Ecma-35-incompatible encodings have an annoying tendency to use the C1 region for printable characters)
00:11:59 <wob_jonas> and I think the only one that's not used according to the ascii meaning is \x1A, which cancels a partial control sequence, but it has \x18 as the synonym which makes more sense
00:12:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: and \x0E is the most infamous control character, as far as ecma/vt102-like terminals are concerened
00:13:18 <ais523> ctrl-n? which one is that? the C1 shift? (ASCII name either shift in or shift out, I forget which)
00:13:24 <ais523> err, the G1 shift, sorry
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00:13:28 <wob_jonas> hmm, actually much more of latin-1 controls are interpreted by terminals. but they all have ascii aliases.
00:13:30 <ais523> C1 shift is ESC
00:13:53 <ais523> and yes, Ecma-35 gives 7-bit-safe sequences for everything
00:14:06 <ais523> so that you can reconfigure an 8-bit device to 7-bit mode over a 7-bit connection
00:14:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, SO, in terminal, shift to secondary character set. you can define which character set, but most of the time the primary one is what you use most of the time, and the secondary one is a line drawing ancient pre-unicode extension
00:15:08 <ais523> it's an Ecma-35 code, it specifically causes 7-bit codes to use G1
00:15:27 <ais523> no idea offhand what it uses for codes which would /naturally/ fall in the G1 region (I think I knew this once, maybe they're G1 too?)
00:15:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: if you cat the wrong file to a termianl, and it isn't malicious but isn't text, then the easiest thing that can mess up your terminal is if it has a \x0E and no \x0F later
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00:15:53 <ais523> also, as I learned with libuncursed, making assumptions about the current content of G1 when you haven't set it yourself tends to be a bad idea
00:16:03 <ais523> although it often is the DEC line drawing characters, this is far from certain
00:16:18 <wob_jonas> the second easiest way it can mess up your terminal is lots of \x05 or \x07, but in modern terminals those cause less serious effects
00:16:42 <wob_jonas> there are ways to mess up terminals in ways that are much harder to reverse, but they have longer and less likely control sequences
00:16:43 <ais523> when I was younger I used to use cat /dev/random to fix terminals messed up by a G1 shift
00:16:47 <ais523> because I didn't know the exact cause
00:16:57 <ais523> (I know it nowadays)
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00:21:36 <wob_jonas> a nice way to mess up your terminal in a way that's hard to reverse is one that only works in linux terminal AFAIK: "\x1B[12m"
00:22:32 <wob_jonas> about the only ways to fix it are"\x1B[10m" which is hard to guess and "\x1Bc" which resets _almost_ everything you can change with terminal control sequences
00:23:10 <wob_jonas> or resetting your terminal with that IOCTL that getty uses
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00:31:20 <wob_jonas> an even nicer way to mess up terminals, although hard to do accidentally, which works best on linux tty with VGA text mode console, but still works to some effect in linux tty with graphics frame buffer mode console, is changing palette entries such as "\e]P7CC6600". You can change all palette entries to black.
00:32:53 <wob_jonas> This is strong because almost nothing reverses its effects. "\ec" doesn't help. logging out and getty resetting the terminal doesn't help. changing to a different virtual tty is a temporary fix, that tty is still messed up. almost the only way to fix is "\e]R" to reset palette or a sequence of correct "\e]P......." palette change sequences.
00:33:09 <wob_jonas> kernel reboot resets it of course.
00:34:53 <wob_jonas> If you have access to the tty device and can send IOCTLs, then there are some even stronger ways to mess up the linux text console, ones that make it unusable even across ttys and isn't reset by getty. So one user of a linux machine who gets console access can use this and then even if he logs out, other users can't use the console.
00:35:39 <wob_jonas> You can change the font, you can change the video mode, you can change the keyboard bindings so that pressing keys doesn't do anything, including pressing keys that are supposed to change to a different virtual tty.
00:36:11 <wob_jonas> You can change the keyboard bindings to include a trojan command.
00:37:24 <wob_jonas> There is also a nice exploit if you give ioctl access to a virtual terminal you use, even a pts of an xterm, to an untrusted program. It can feed the input buffer of that terminal with a trojan command.
00:38:41 <wob_jonas> That's why you should never run untrusted commands in a pts in a su from root or sudo, even though the process doesn't get direct root access, if you get a root shell back in the same terminal after.
00:39:08 <wob_jonas> You should exec them, or flush the terminal after, or run them in script, or run them piped through cat, etc.
00:40:01 <wob_jonas> Ok, I'll end the rant about arcane potentially malicious uses of terminals in linux now.
00:40:08 <wob_jonas> It's just too late.
00:40:34 <wob_jonas> Too late in the night that is.
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00:44:12 <oerjan> `? ☆
00:44:13 <HackEso> Twinkle, twinkle, little star!
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01:48:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pelicero * New user account
01:50:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57514&oldid=57508 * Pelicero * (+82) I added mine
01:52:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57515&oldid=57514 * Pelicero * (+87) /* Introductions */
02:03:43 <esowiki> [[SeMo-PATH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57516 * Pelicero * (+2005) Created page with "'''SeMo-PATH''', is derivation of [[PATH]], that is a two-dimensional language inspired by [[Brainfuck]] and [[Befunge]]. Unlike PATH's environment, SeMo-PATH's consists of a..."
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02:14:51 <zzo38> You should add escape codes to correct it in the banner before the login prompt
02:15:43 <zzo38> If ioctl is needed to fix it, then that program must be corrected to fix it. Possibly also a SysRq command should be added to reset it.
02:29:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57517&oldid=57425 * Pelicero * (+16) /* S */
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04:48:25 <zzo38> I made up a implementation of modal types in Haskell, and then I looked someone else did the same thing; the difference is that I used different names, and also that they used StaticPtr but I used a class instead.
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05:40:52 <zzo38> In a book from library I found this chess problem (B.S. Barrett, 1874): 8/8/8/8/8/8/ppQKPPP1/k7
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07:15:21 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57518&oldid=57475 * Rdebath * (-73) Remove link to old stub
07:21:14 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57519&oldid=57518 * Rdebath * (+48) Note a minor difference
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09:53:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: "You should add escape codes to correct it in the banner before the login prompt" => correct what exactly? just the palette? at a login prompt, that barely helps, since the user that has logged in previously on the console had ioctl access, and could mess up the console worse than that.
09:55:28 <wob_jonas> If I just want to output untrusted character stream to the console (such as from a telnet connection to a nethack server), then there are much better solutions (wrapping in screen, using a real terminal emulator).
10:07:24 <wob_jonas> My cheap feature phone has a hard limit of up to 24 characters inclusive for the name in phonebook entries, and it's hard to associate additional data to the entry other than one name and one phone number.
10:07:27 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure what character set the name uses, but it's converted to and from utf-8 it writes or reads the backup, and I could make my own backup with my tool and it read that correctly.
10:09:20 <wob_jonas> So sometimes I have use creative abbreviations for the name. The name I would use if there weren't such a low limit can be long either because it's some dept in some government-related or commercial organization, and those tend to have ugly names, or because I add notes to many people for where I know them from, because I can't recall who all perso
10:09:20 <wob_jonas> nal names refer to.
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12:48:26 <wob_jonas> `? font
12:48:27 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
12:51:06 <wob_jonas> oren: do you happen to know is there's a circled check mark dingbat unicode character that's supported in many fonts?
12:52:30 <wob_jonas> I just used "(✓)" as a workaround
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14:02:36 <int-e> `unidecode ✓
14:02:37 <HackEso> ​[U+2713 CHECK MARK]
14:02:59 <int-e> > let a ✓ b = exp (log b / a) in 3 ✓ 27
14:03:01 <lambdabot> 3.0000000000000004
14:04:26 <int-e> > let a √ b = exp (log b / a) in 3 √ 27 -- more appropriate
14:04:28 <lambdabot> 3.0000000000000004
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14:05:30 <int-e> > let (∞) = id in sin ∞ 1
14:05:32 <lambdabot> 0.8414709848078965
14:06:03 <int-e> Haskell allows pretty weird infix operators.
14:06:21 <izabera> how do you tell the precedence?
14:06:25 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think U+2713 originates as an encoding of MS Wingdings font's \xFC
14:06:36 <int-e> izabera: infixl 9 unless explicitly declared
14:06:51 <izabera> what
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14:07:47 <int-e> > let (♘) = (++) in text $ "♚" ♘ "♛"
14:07:49 <lambdabot> ♚♛
14:08:45 <wob_jonas> MS's Symbol and Wingdings fonts were in wide use before Unicode, so they just encoded all the characters that didn't obviously correspond to some already encoded character (like a greek letter) early in unicode
14:09:21 <int-e> int-e: infixl 9 is how Haskell declares precedence (here: 9) and fixity (here: left)
14:10:13 <int-e> hmm fixity = associativity.
14:10:22 <wob_jonas> But whereas Symbol mostly has characters they'd already encode, plus some fragment glyph thingies used for drawing large parenthesis and the like in equations, Wingdings is mostly symbols that wouldn't have otherwise had an encoding.
14:10:25 <wob_jonas> Hmm, I think I'm wrong
14:11:52 <wob_jonas> I dunno really how this worked.
14:12:28 <wob_jonas> I think Wingdings is one of those stupid encodings like cp1250 to which MS added new characters later, and called the new version under the same name.
14:13:23 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: I think these fonts worked
14:13:26 <arseniiv> oops
14:13:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: right. the only other programming language I know of that supports such infix precedence declarations is prolog.
14:14:13 <arseniiv> worked without knowing which of byte encodings are used
14:14:28 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes.
14:14:44 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: there was no unicode support back then. you just chose the right font for formatted text.
14:15:15 <arseniiv> yes, so that question about native encoding of the font is not so correct
14:16:53 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: sure. but unicode wants to encode characters that are already used, and those characters were already used in formatted text of various formats, including RTF, word doc, and HTML
14:17:00 <wob_jonas> by setting the font
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14:19:03 <wob_jonas> there were web browsers before unicode, and people used <font face="Symbol">a</a> or various amp-escapes of which there were so many they wouldn't fit in the normal 8-bit encoding.
14:19:18 <wob_jonas> both of those were used to write an alpha and similar symbols.
14:20:13 <arseniiv> agree
14:21:50 <wob_jonas> and there was a parallel incompatible set of IBM/DOS, Windows, and pre-OS-X Mac 8-bit encodings and fonts, plus various east asian encodings and different versions of software supporting that that I don't know much about
14:22:51 <wob_jonas> I can mostly use the same DOS and Windows 3.11 installation to support western, eastern, and cyrillic encodings, of the IBM/DOS and Windows versions, but not the iso-8859 or Mac encodings. But I can't use the same software to support east asian encodings.
14:23:38 <wob_jonas> There's knobs to be turned for choosing between the three regions (west-europe latin, east-europe latin, cyrillic).
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17:37:55 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57520&oldid=57511 * Blacksilver * (+194) More words
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18:36:27 <arseniiv> deontology vs. ontology: who’ll win?!
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20:13:27 <TheWild> hello
20:13:43 <TheWild> maybe not entirely esoteric but you may find the concept interesting: https://gist.github.com/beyondlimits/e00159460b55ea4eff949933a2b7dc8e
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2018-09-05
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00:08:55 <oerjan> heroux_: *cough*
00:09:10 <oerjan> heroux_: *cough*
00:09:13 <oerjan> oops
00:09:18 <oerjan> heroux: *cough*
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01:14:03 <shachaf> oerjan: why did heroux_ get double-coughed?!
01:14:22 <shachaf> i,i https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM05_SEFeqk
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01:21:42 <oerjan> shachaf: mis-tab-expansion
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01:38:54 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is ripe for picking
01:38:56 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is ripe for picking
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08:20:54 <john_metcalf> I'll be at the Retro Computer Festival in Cambridge on 15th September if anyone else is planning to go http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/43210/Retro-Computer-Festival-2018-15th-16th-September/
08:37:14 <Taneb> john_metcalf: ooh, I didn't realise that was happening!
08:38:33 <Taneb> I think I'll try to go
08:38:42 <Taneb> (I do live in Cambridge, after all)
08:41:13 <int-e> @botsnack
08:41:13 <lambdabot> :)
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08:46:30 <Taneb> @ask What's the username of the month twh
08:46:30 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
08:47:16 <int-e> @dowg password
08:47:16 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yow docs do
08:47:23 <int-e> `dowg password
08:47:25 <HackEso> 11619:2018-09-05 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is ripe for picking \ 11587:2018-08-03 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is alphanumer1c. \ 11584:2018-07-20 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month will be short-lived. \ 11570:2018-06-03 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-05-05 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is <redacted>. \ 11509:2018-04-14 <oerjän> slwd pa
08:47:45 <int-e> so it was
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08:50:53 <shachaf> Taneb: What's not going to answer your question hth
08:52:34 <Taneb> shachaf: I don't know how to respond to that
08:52:56 <shachaf> Maybe it was a clever meta-joke where you didn't include the username in the @ask?
08:53:25 <Taneb> @ask oerjan What's the username of the month twh
08:53:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
08:53:38 <shachaf> Oh man
08:53:42 <Taneb> shachaf: ah, I missed that and thought you were just doing a who's on first
08:54:22 <Taneb> Now, when oerjan reads the logs he'll see my question twice and be only half as inclined to answer it
08:54:37 <shachaf> baseball is too complicated for me hth
08:56:37 <shachaf> `learn The password of the month is mutable
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09:39:22 <wob_jonas> `? secret handshake
09:39:23 <HackEso> secret handshake? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:39:27 <wob_jonas> `? secret handshake of the month
09:39:28 <HackEso> secret handshake of the month? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:39:30 <wob_jonas> `? password of the month
09:39:31 <HackEso> password of the month? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:39:33 <wob_jonas> `? password
09:39:34 <HackEso> The password of the month is ripe for picking
09:39:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't think that worked
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09:41:47 <wob_jonas> I nominate tWR8rveNFOBO as the password of the month
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10:12:48 <int-e> @goole tWR8rveNFOBO
10:12:49 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
10:13:03 <int-e> hmm, then what's the point
10:14:15 <wob_jonas> int-e: it's a password. it's supposed to be secret.
10:14:28 <wob_jonas> or at least a priori unguessable.
10:14:37 <int-e> wob_jonas: but I think the agreement is to only update that file once in each calendar month. (though I've violated that rule at least once)
10:15:01 <wob_jonas> int-e: has it been updated in September yet?
10:15:04 <int-e> wob_jonas: anyway that doesn't meet my standards for a password of the month.
10:15:09 <int-e> wob_jonas: yes, oerjan updated it
10:15:33 <wob_jonas> let me check. because I think he only failed to update it
10:15:58 <int-e> `? password
10:15:59 <HackEso> The password of the month is ripe for picking
10:16:19 <wob_jonas> ah indeed
10:16:22 <int-e> Autumn themed.
10:16:24 <wob_jonas> that was updated in september
10:16:55 <int-e> Though I think we've seen better pootms.
10:17:46 <int-e> `` wc -l quotes
10:17:47 <HackEso> 1327 quotes
10:51:16 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57521&oldid=57505 * YamTokWae * (-69) /* Commands */ BIG MISTAKE
11:53:07 <wob_jonas> `quote password
11:53:08 <HackEso> No output.
11:53:11 <wob_jonas> `? handshake
11:53:12 <HackEso> handshake? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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13:23:32 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/electro-sutra/
13:23:33 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/electro-sutra/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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14:53:38 <esowiki> [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57522&oldid=56360 * Digital Hunter * (+81) /* Stuff */
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16:19:28 <shachaf> `olist 1139
16:19:28 <HackEso> olist 1139: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:52:22 <john_metcalf> Are categories on the wiki working correctly? E.g. Fungewars is tagged as being in the Programming Games category, but when I visit the category it's not listed. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fungewars
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23:40:34 <Sgeo> That was certainly an olist
2018-09-06
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01:10:26 <oerjan> <int-e> Though I think we've seen better pootms. <-- it was sort of alluding to how no one else did it even though i waiting 5 days
01:11:16 <oerjan> @messages-bold
01:11:16 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 16h 17m 50s ago: What's the username of the month twh
01:11:22 <oerjan> `? username
01:11:23 <HackEso> username? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:11:41 <oerjan> @tell Taneb available hth
01:11:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:12:44 <oerjan> `dontaskdonttelllist
01:12:45 <HackEso> dontaskdonttelllist: q​u​i​n​t​o​p​i​a​ m​y​n​a​m​e​ i​n​t​-​e​
01:12:56 <oerjan> i guess i won't tell him, then.
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02:08:00 <oerjan> @tell john_metcalf There's a caching issue with categories when viewed by non-logged in users.
02:08:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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02:35:42 <^v> anyone here good at lambda calculus
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03:22:05 <Sgeo__> https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutine.h is a thing I learned exists
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14:05:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Shakespeare]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57523&oldid=19987 * JWinslow23 * (+354) /* Shakespeare Turing Complete? */
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20:15:47 <wob_jonas> int-e, schachaf: tom7 left a few new comments about ''Running out of space'' in http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1160 . Nothing surprising or revealing, just mentioning it.
20:15:53 <wob_jonas> @tell schachaf tom7 left a few new comments about ''Running out of space'' in http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1160 . Nothing surprising or revealing, just mentioning it.
20:15:53 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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2018-09-07
00:02:45 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas when @telling shachaf, it might help to spell his name correctly hth
00:02:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:03:03 <oerjan> istr you get pinged on -chaf, so that should still work
00:03:25 <oerjan> if you weren't suspiciously idle, anyway
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00:12:55 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57524&oldid=57521 * YamTokWae * (+1) /* Overview */
00:35:00 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57525&oldid=57524 * YamTokWae * (+858)
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06:19:08 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57526&oldid=57525 * YamTokWae * (+33)
06:22:49 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57527&oldid=57417 * YamTokWae * (-4803)
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06:41:02 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57528&oldid=57526 * YamTokWae * (-53) /* Interpreter Development */
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10:28:46 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yeah, good idea
10:29:00 <wob_jonas> shachaf: tom7 left a few new comments about ''Running out of space'' in http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1160 . Nothing surprising or revealing, just mentioning it.
10:29:10 <wob_jonas> I dunno why I misspelled his name the last time
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10:44:48 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57529&oldid=57528 * YamTokWae * (+198) /* External Links */
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10:55:51 <int-e> `"
10:55:52 <HackEso> 94) <fungot> alise: nobody is allowed to fnord me in soviet russia \ 302) <augur> oerjan you're swedish, right?
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11:37:02 <wob_jonas> `"
11:37:04 <HackEso> 1141) <zzo38> kmc: I don't need any of your organ at this time. \ 315) <zzo38> Finally I found the wand of electric lightning now we can destroy any large object if it needs to be destroyed and is required to use a such a wand for that purpose.
11:39:14 <wob_jonas> `quote 4
11:39:14 <HackEso> 4) <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be told that you should always ask someone before killing them.
11:39:39 <wob_jonas> ^ that's Maurice's main rule in the Terry Pratchett book
11:46:03 <wob_jonas> ``` quote 8; quote 29
11:46:05 <HackEso> 8) <Madelon> Lil`Cube: you had cavity searches? <Lil`Cube> not yet <Lil`Cube> trying to thou, just so I can check it off on my list of things to expirence \ 29) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
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12:17:51 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57530&oldid=55118 * YamTokWae * (+158)
12:20:37 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57531&oldid=57527 * YamTokWae * (+282)
12:23:44 <wob_jonas> ``` quote 70 # this actually explains like half of the quotes file
12:23:45 <HackEso> 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future
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12:50:39 <wob_jonas> ``` allquotes | perl -we 'while(<STDIN>) { my%l; while(m(<([-0-9A-z]{1,16})>)g) { $l{$1}++ } $f{$_}++ for keys%l; } for $n (sort {$f{$b}<=>$f{$a}} keys %f) { print qq($f{$n} $n\n) }' | sport
12:50:40 <HackEso> 1/5:103 zzo38 \ 101 fungot \ 95 Phantom_Hoover \ 92 elliott \ 88 ais523 \ 81 fizzie \ 77 kmc \ 67 oklopol \ 58 Bike \ 55 oerjan \ 54 Sgeo \ 52 Taneb \ 45 olsner \ 41 Gregor \ 41 shachaf \ 40 monqy \ 26 boily \ 22 Vorpal \ 21 itidus20 \ 14 tswett \ 14 pikhq \ 14 itidus21 \ 13 int-e \ 13 cpressey \ 13 Ngevd \ 11 ehird \ 11 Jafet \ 10 HackEgo \ 10 coppro \ 9 elliott_ \ 9 hppavilion[1] \ 9 alise \ 9 oklofok \ 9 Warrigal \ 8 NihilistDandy \ 7 Phantom__Hoover \
12:50:44 <wob_jonas> `n
12:50:44 <HackEso> 2/5:7 GreyKnight \ 7 quintopia \ 7 crystal-cola \ 7 Fiora \ 7 Deewiant \ 7 Sgeo_ \ 6 AnMaster \ 6 nddrylliog \ 6 ion \ 6 Patashu \ 5 ZOMGMODULES \ 5 b_jonas \ 5 CakeProphet \ 5 EgoBot \ 4 fax \ 4 augur \ 4 Quas_NaArt \ 4 \oren\ \ 4 oren \ 3 mroman_ \ 3 MDude \ 3 hagb4rd \ 3 Slereah \ 3 kallisti \ 3 nooga \ 3 ais523_ \ 3 Madelon \ 2 c00kiemon5ter \ 2 lambdabot \ 2 wob_jonas \ 2 Koen_ \ 2 lexande \ 2 apollo \ 2 izabera \ 2 j-invariant \ 2 prooftechnique \ 2
12:51:07 <wob_jonas> ^ Nicks appearing the most frequently in quotes. sorry for pinging everyone.
12:51:59 <wob_jonas> `quote crystal-cola
12:51:59 <HackEso> 278) <crystal-cola> anyway I've stopped ``trolling'' <crystal-cola> since apparently you guys don't like me claiming obviously false and absurd claims \ 286) <crystal-cola> I just thought you might have meant the Ramanujan tau and I was WOAH he weilds heavy weapons \ 287) <crystal-cola> http://www.sessionmagazine.com/img/nature/worlds-10-smallest-animals/worlds-10-smallest-animals07.jpg <crystal-cola> worlds biggest thumb \ 288) <crystal-cola> what telne
12:54:54 <Taneb> Hmm, I could do better
13:01:38 <Taneb> Like in general, but also re: how quotable I've been
13:02:11 <wob_jonas> Taneb: you're more wisdommable though
13:02:37 <Taneb> Wisdom isn't everything
13:02:45 <Taneb> `? everything
13:02:47 <HackEso> everything? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:03:03 <Taneb> And also, apparently, everything isn't wisdom
13:03:06 <wob_jonas> Taneb: according to a quick and dirty regex /\bTane[bl]/i , you are in 73 out of 1543 wisdom entries, not counting symlinks and that reflection thingy
13:03:52 <Taneb> That's about 1/21
13:05:28 <wob_jonas> and in out of 1327 quotes
13:06:23 <wob_jonas> (sorry) and in 58 out of 1327 quotes
13:08:09 <Taneb> That's about 1/23
13:08:30 <Taneb> Those numbers are quite close, I wonder if they correspond to how relatively active I am in some way?
13:11:16 <wob_jonas> Taneb: no. other regulars that appear near the top list of the quote statistics appear in very few wisdoms.
13:12:29 <Taneb> Hmm, that is true, the tanebventions are an anomaly
13:12:42 <wob_jonas> my regexes are very approximate of course, and I'm still checking
13:15:39 <wob_jonas> I think you're in a lot of wisdoms because they talk a lot about your inventions
13:19:32 <wob_jonas> I think there are only 9 wisdoms in which zzo38 appears: rdf; zzo38mtg; farbfeld; zzo38mtg.php; zzo38; amigamml; zzo38card; gopher; danddreclist; 9/1543
13:19:58 <wob_jonas> And me and zzo38 are probably responsible for half of those
13:20:58 <wob_jonas> `? zzo38mtg
13:20:59 <HackEso> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
13:21:00 <wob_jonas> `? zzo38mtg.php
13:21:02 <HackEso> http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php
13:22:19 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57532 * YamTokWae * (+171) Created page with "'''Pxemex18''' is a programming language designed by [[User:YamTokWae]] in 2018. This is a extended and standardized version of [[Pxem]], which was made in 2008 by ."
13:22:19 <wob_jonas> nope, that last part is not true
13:22:32 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57533&oldid=57532 * YamTokWae * (+2)
13:23:18 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log wisdom/zzo38
13:23:19 <HackEso> changeset: 0:e037173e0012 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 16 19:42:32 2012 +0000 \ summary: Initial import.
13:23:37 <wob_jonas> ^ Is our hackeso history truncated? Or was wisdom/zzo38 always there?
13:23:40 <wob_jonas> `? zzo38
13:23:41 <HackEso> zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem.
13:23:49 <wob_jonas> that seems strange
13:24:07 <wob_jonas> hmm, perhaps it predates HackEgo?
13:24:32 <wob_jonas> is the wisdom database older than HackEgo?
13:24:57 <wob_jonas> I know HackEgo started as a more versatile replacement for some other bot, and the `! command that we almost never use is a remnant of that
13:25:00 <wob_jonas> `? `!
13:25:01 <HackEso> ​`! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it originally replaced some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
13:25:09 <wob_jonas> oh, that's mine
13:25:15 <wob_jonas> I don't know who knows anything about that
13:25:30 <Taneb> That was EgoBot, right?
13:25:45 <wob_jonas> possibly
13:25:48 <wob_jonas> I have no idea
13:27:29 <wob_jonas> but I think the history is also truncated
13:28:42 <wob_jonas> according to logs, HackEgo existed in some form back in 2010, but the HackEso hg history seems to start in 2011
13:29:10 <wob_jonas> I mean according to channel logs
13:32:20 <Taneb> It predates me, but not by much, in that case
13:34:12 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57534&oldid=57529 * YamTokWae * (+176) /* External Links */ GREAT WORK!
13:34:52 <wob_jonas> 2010 is just an upper bound
13:34:56 <wob_jonas> it probably already exists earlier
13:35:22 <wob_jonas> I don't have a copy of the logs (I should download one and upload it to hackeso so we can use it to loggrep) and was lazy to check
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16:35:06 <zzo38> SQLite does not have something like NATURAL JOIN but for INSERT statements, so that it uses all columns that exist in both the SELECT and in the table (or view) being inserted into and use default values for others.
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21:55:38 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57535&oldid=57531 * YamTokWae * (+240)
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23:18:21 <wob_jonas> zzo38: SQLite does not have something like NATURAL JOIN but for INSERT statements =>
23:18:23 <wob_jonas> yes, it doesn't have that. and that's sort of a good thing too, because the column name is undefined and may change in different versions if the values in a SELECT clause have expressions with no AS output name and aren't simple column loads.
23:19:10 <wob_jonas> so if it had such a feature, the column names from the select expression could change in future versions and break the statement.
23:20:51 <wob_jonas> Obviously this can also happen in a NATURAL JOIN with SELECT too if you use sub-select inside FROM sources, or even without a join if you just use a sub-select source and refer to its columns
23:21:50 <wob_jonas> Heck, it can also happen with a view, because you can omit the column names from a CREATE VIEW definition and let it decide from the SELECT statement that backs it.
23:23:59 <wob_jonas> It would perhaps be best if all those undefined names were inaccessible by column name in the SQL statement itself, and only visible from the C api like sqlite3_column_name and from introspection, but changing that now would also break some scripts that use the existing names.
23:24:28 <wob_jonas> So those column names are officially undefined, but in simpler cases they rarely change.
23:25:04 <wob_jonas> I think the doc also doesn't clearly specify which column is chosen in some complicated queries when two columns with the same name are in scope.
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01:38:49 <pimlu> hey, I figured this was a better place to share
01:39:18 <pimlu> I wrote a really fast FRACTRAN interpreter, which for some programs is like, super duper fast
01:39:50 <pimlu> I made a bet with my friend that at least one person would give a shit about fractran
01:40:07 <pimlu> so at this point I would even take a "thank you pimlu, very cool!"
01:40:16 <pimlu> anyway it's here https://pimlu.github.io/fractran/
01:40:23 <pimlu> it changes the big O time complexity of your programs
01:42:40 <pimlu> it can sometimes speed programs up by an exponential factor
01:53:02 <zzo38> It is blank
01:59:11 <pimlu> the page? what browser are you using?
02:01:38 <zzo38> The HTML code is also blank except <title> and <meta>
02:02:13 <zzo38> I am using Firefox 39.0
02:02:25 <pimlu> do you have JS enabled? otherwise it would be blank
02:03:34 <pimlu> maybe I should put some kind of noscript thing in there
02:03:50 <zzo38> Shouldn't a webpage be written in HTML?
02:03:59 <zzo38> (rather than JavaScript)
02:04:35 <pimlu> yeah, however since the interpreter runs in your browser, which needs JS, I just made the whole thing depend on it
02:05:00 <pimlu> if you want to run it on desktop you can run the haskell natively, it's just kind of annoying and an obscure language
02:05:39 <zzo38> O, OK. Although you might want to only view the source code repository (hopefully there is one, if it is Github?) rather than to execute it
02:05:56 <pimlu> yup, https://github.com/pimlu/fractran
02:06:01 <zzo38> OK I will look
02:06:27 <pimlu> you can read the code yourself, or take a look at the benchmarks at the end of the paper I attached in there
02:06:56 <zzo38> I do have ghc in my computer
02:07:09 <pimlu> oh sweet haha
02:08:24 <pimlu> I was using haste to build it for the browser, which usually allows a lot more people to see your code
02:08:43 <pimlu> since people trust the browser sandbox and find urls and easy way to run code
02:08:51 <pimlu> surprised it went the other way around this time
02:09:12 <zzo38> This time I have no intention to run the code, only to view it, anyways
02:09:22 <pimlu> ah I see
02:09:40 <pimlu> the important bits are in Fractran.hs
02:09:52 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so
02:10:14 <pimlu> mainly `leap` and `cycles`
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02:20:56 <zzo38> That is good.
02:21:05 <zzo38> (I read the explanation too)
02:27:06 <pimlu> Yeah, the theory is solid, though the code needs cleanup
02:27:14 <pimlu> I wrote it all before my capstone deadline a while ago
02:27:22 <zzo38> OK
02:28:00 <pimlu> thanks!
02:31:29 <zzo38> I remember I once wrote a golfed Fractran implementation with JavaScript (it is only a function and has no user interface), but cannot find it right now.
02:33:46 <pimlu> that's cool. neat how simple turing complete architectures can be
02:43:28 <zzo38> I did find this polyglot program I wrote though: select(typeof('\'')x){}/*'))where/*/main(){puts("Hello, World!");}//*/0;select'Hello, World!'; I also found a implementation of Unnecessary that I wrote: require("fs").stat(process.argv[2],x=>x._)
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02:49:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unnecessary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57536&oldid=53561 * Zzo38 * (+96)
02:50:08 <zzo38> I found my Fractran implementation in JavaScript: (n,p,f=_=>p.some(([x,y])=>n*x%y?0:n=n*x/y)?f():n)=>f()
02:50:35 <zzo38> Do you like this?
02:57:13 <shachaf> Does it only work for numbers up to 2^52?
02:57:26 <shachaf> helloerjan, hob_jonas, etc.
03:00:01 <zzo38> It is that problem yes, but later with new version of JavaScript with bigint, it can presumably work for numbers of any size.
03:09:01 <pimlu> that's awesome
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04:41:47 <zzo38> Now I made scatter plotting in SQL
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11:56:38 <esowiki> [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57537&oldid=41551 * B jonas * (+98) +Fast fractran interpreter by pimlu
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12:02:23 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2666629/getting-hyper/
12:02:24 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
12:03:25 <wob_jonas> pimlu: ah, as I was reading your lines, I was thinking ... there's no way I can tell if that fractran interpreter even works, let alone if it's really fast. we'll need someone who is crazy enough to have actually written nontrivial programs in fractran. maybe zzo38 has. but then I read the log further and indeed, zzo38 popped up on cue.
12:09:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: try looking at the article https://github.com/pimlu/fractran/raw/master/termpd.pdf too, not only the source code
12:09:29 <esowiki> [[Fractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57538&oldid=57537 * B jonas * (+180) source code link for pimlu's interpreter
12:20:07 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57539&oldid=57535 * YamTokWae * (+1147)
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12:24:25 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57540&oldid=57539 * YamTokWae * (+310) /* Programming Language using toki pona? */
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20:01:01 <wob_jonas> Another crazy thing I learned about English today: a "stirrup jar" has nothing to do with a "stirrup". I got suspicious and looked up the meaning after the second document that talked about a "stirrup jar" as an archaeological find dated to bronze age civilizations.
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20:18:27 <zzo38> Now I made enough SQLite extension that you can make this picture http://zzo38computer.org/img_1C/sinewave.png from the following SQL code: with x(x) as (select gr_plot(':width=160:height=150:pad=8:axis=00aa00:line=00ff00',value,sin(value*pi()),null) from range(-1,1,.05)) select pipe(x,'ffpng > sinewave.png') from x;
20:19:25 <zzo38> Do you like this?
20:20:32 <wob_jonas> zzo38: great. that would probably take me over twenty minutes to reproduce with gnuplot, most of that spent in reading the manual for how to make the frame a dotted line, then giving up and removing the frame and addin a dotted rectangle object instead.
20:20:38 <wob_jonas> :-)
20:20:55 <wob_jonas> why's it all green on white by the way? that's not a good color.
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20:21:29 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct, it isn't; with a black background it look better. Without a option ':bg=000000' it will be a transparent background.
20:21:50 <wob_jonas> oh... it's supposed to be transparent? let me check
20:22:08 <zzo38> (Sorry I didn't fix it, since with my testing I did not see the error until I checked in the web browser. Still, even in the web browser you can use a data: URI in the location bar to force it to use your own background colour.)
20:22:37 <wob_jonas> Indeed it's transparent. Sorry.
20:23:33 <wob_jonas> That makes it better. I'm not sure if I could make the gnuplot pngcairo engine use a transparent background. I'd guess no, but then I don't _want_ a plot on a transparent background either.
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20:24:27 <wob_jonas> But yes, that green on black would make sense.
20:25:54 <zzo38> The "xwindows" extension ignores the alpha channel, so it appears black if you write: insert into xwindows(picture) select gr_plot(...)
20:27:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and adding a black background is easy in various ways, I just didn't realize it was a transparent image.
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21:16:44 <zzo38> Functions should be added for other kind of plot too, and for axis labels, which currently doesn't have (except for a GR_PIE function which makes a simple pie chart without options or labels or anything like that)
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21:19:58 <wob_jonas> Fuck.
21:20:24 <wob_jonas> I *will* be buying a new set of glasses this year after all. I was hoping I would be able to skip this year.
21:20:41 <wob_jonas> I just dropped my glasses and broke the lens.
21:20:49 <wob_jonas> s/ set of/ pair of/
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21:31:11 <wob_jonas> Double fuck.
21:31:20 -!- Mayoi has changed nick to erkin.
21:32:11 <wob_jonas> There's a hiss when I put all my weight on my exercise ball. It must have gotten a hole from a splinter of the broken glass lens.
21:34:36 <wob_jonas> On the plus side, now I know what to tell my mother who keeps asking me what she could give me as a birthday present. I'd like a new exercise ball.
21:38:31 <wob_jonas> I found the hole.
21:40:23 <wob_jonas> Let me google if holes on exercise balls can be repaired with bicycle inner tire repair kits.
21:43:36 <wob_jonas> https://www.exerciseball-gymball.com/exercise-ball-patch/ says "You can use a repair kit for inflatable boats. The patches are robust and durable. Bicycle patch also works, but is not quite as strong."
21:52:11 <wob_jonas> The air actually comes out even with no weight on the ball until the pressure drops such a low equilibrium that the ball is already a bit too deflated to comfortably sit on it.
21:53:15 <wob_jonas> Let me tyr to measure what that equilibrium is.
21:54:42 <wob_jonas> It's about this much (points at the ball).
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21:55:40 <wob_jonas> Let me see how long a dumb patch with a strip of PVC insulation tape would last if I sit on the ball.
21:56:13 <wob_jonas> At that pressure that is equilibrium for no weight on the ball that is.
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22:52:53 <wob_jonas> Nope. Insulation tape is still there, but the ball still leaks air quickly as I'm sitting on it.
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23:58:00 <ais523> @messages?
23:58:00 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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23:58:18 <wob_jonas> hey ais523!
23:58:42 <ais523> hi
23:59:33 <ais523> hmm, the stalker server isn't connected, so maybe I'm not connected to IRC either
23:59:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:59:53 <ais523> oh, apparently my comments appear on the logs if I refresh the page
23:59:54 <ais523> so I must be
2018-09-09
00:00:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
00:01:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know if you care about any of these things, but today *I* (1) found out that a week ago the National Museum of Brazil burned down, destroying most of a large collection of intellectually valuable items, which made me sad, (b) I broke a lens of my glasses, then immediately after that I got a hole on the exercise ball I was sitting on
00:01:24 <wob_jonas> , probably from a sharp splinter from the lens.
00:01:41 <wob_jonas> s/\(b\)/(2)/
00:02:05 <ais523> I think that it's important that for the future we try to store things in a form that's easily copiable
00:02:16 <wob_jonas> and that's perl regex syntax, not sed or ex... which one do we customarily use in s/// substitutions on IRC
00:02:17 <ais523> so that we can have copies of them all over the place to help protect against disasters
00:02:29 <ais523> I think we mostly use PCRE here because we're more familiar with it
00:02:46 <ais523> or Perl, Perl and PCRE are sufficiently similar that you need to know a lot about regexes to tell them apart
00:02:51 <wob_jonas> yeah, very few people know how ex regexen wrok
00:03:09 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I think it hardly care since usually you know by context since you are not using it as a computer code.
00:03:27 <wob_jonas> but some people on #esoteric use sed in HackEso and don't like when I use perl in HackEso at the same time
00:03:28 <zzo38> I don't know what is more common though.
00:03:58 <wob_jonas> so maybe those people would use sed regexen
00:04:10 <ais523> perhaps we should use perl6 regex syntax, which is totally different from all the others
00:04:15 <zzo38> Why is that? Do they have both sed and perl in HackEso, I should think, then you can use whatever you use.
00:04:54 <wob_jonas> oh and wait,
00:04:59 <ais523> hackeso has Perl installed
00:05:36 <zzo38> Do they have the latest version of SQLite on HaskEso?
00:05:40 <ais523> `perl-e $/.=x; print for 1..5;
00:05:41 <HackEso> 12345
00:05:48 <ais523> err
00:05:51 <ais523> `perl-e $\.=x; print for 1..5;
00:05:51 <HackEso> 1x2x3x4x5x
00:05:57 <ais523> `perl-e $\.=x, print for 1..5;
00:05:58 <HackEso> 1x2xx3xxx4xxxx5xxxxx
00:06:00 <ais523> there we go
00:06:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think you'll actually care about this at least a bit: (3) what I learned about English today: a "stirrup jar" has nothing to do with a "stirrup". I got suspicious after reading two independent mentions about "stirrup jar" as an archaeological find dated to the bronze in short sequence, and so I looked up the meaning.
00:07:13 <ais523> this sort of thing is not that surprising
00:07:18 <ais523> English is not a very logical language
00:08:47 <wob_jonas> `perl-e print unpack "x*(a*\@0X)*(a*@)*", "hello\n";
00:08:48 <HackEso> ​ \ o \ lo \ llo \ ello \ hello \ ello \ llo \ lo \ o
00:10:29 <ais523> `! jelly
00:10:30 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/jelly: not found
00:10:35 <ais523> we should have some golfing language interpreters in there, really
00:10:45 <wob_jonas> `? `!
00:10:46 <HackEso> ​`! is a command that runs interpreters. Supposedly. Nobody actually uses it, or knows how it works. It has some historical significance, where it originally replaced some previous bot of #esoteric that was not as customizable as HackEgo.
00:11:22 <wob_jonas> ^ if you know any first-hand stuff about `! or that previous bot, perhaps you should edit some more truthful or more informative wisdom there
00:11:33 <wob_jonas> I wrote this one entirely on heresay
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00:12:02 <wob_jonas> helloerjan
00:12:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, about HackEso, do you happen to know why the hg history seems to go back only to 2011, while HackEso is definitely older than that?
00:13:03 <wob_jonas> um
00:13:06 <wob_jonas> HackEgo is older than that
00:13:07 <oerjan> hellonas
00:13:17 <wob_jonas> HackEgo isn't
00:13:30 <ais523> !learn `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
00:13:31 <wob_jonas> but the HackEgo hg history goes back to way before HackEso
00:13:35 <ais523> `learn `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
00:13:37 <HackEso> Relearned '`': `! emulates the ! command of our former bot EgoBot. You write `! then the name of the language then a program, and it runs the program you give and returns the result. We used to use it to test out esoprograms in-channel all the time, but the set of included esolangs is fairly old now and so it's rarely used.
00:13:38 <oerjan> wob_jonas: Gregor had a habit of sometimes squashing history in the beginning
00:13:58 <wob_jonas> oerjan: for saving space?
00:14:04 <ais523> `! bf8 +++++++++++.[+.]
00:14:05 <HackEso>
00:14:07 <oerjan> so the "Initial import" messages are from when he did that.
00:14:12 <oerjan> wob_jonas: presumably.
00:14:15 <wob_jonas> or did it slow down hg commit?
00:14:17 <oerjan> (last)
00:14:24 <ais523> also it doesn't seem to work very well nowadays
00:14:28 <oerjan> wob_jonas: perhaps?
00:14:56 <wob_jonas> if it was the latter, then I would hope he backed up the squashed parts somewhere, but maybe HackEgo didn't seem as important back then
00:15:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: EgoBot also used to allow you to write new interpreters in languages it already knew; most notably, it didn't know how to interpret Underload, so we taught it using an implementation in brainfuck
00:15:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: what doesn't seem to work very well?
00:15:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: `!
00:15:24 <wob_jonas> yeah
00:15:27 <ais523> ^bf +++++++++++.[+]
00:15:39 <ais523> although I guess it works better than fungot who isn't here at all right now
00:16:45 <ais523> is the stalker server actually working at all?
00:16:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'd guess that `! references programs outside the hg repository, and those aren't present in HackEso's fs
00:17:10 <ais523> they are, but I think something might have gone wrong in the changeover
00:17:18 <ais523> `! kipple 65>o
00:17:19 <HackEso> A
00:17:23 <ais523> `! kipple 65>o<66
00:17:23 <HackEso> BA
00:17:39 <ais523> see, that one's working
00:18:10 <oerjan> there used to be a working haskell at one point.
00:18:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, in that case, maybe some interpreters that `! calls reference programs outside the hg repository
00:18:35 <Sgeo_> I now have a more comfortable vice.js than vice.js
00:18:37 <wob_jonas> I know `! itself is like two simple shell scripts or something that just call on the interpreters from a directory
00:18:41 <ais523> `! intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:18:42 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/intercal: not found
00:18:44 <ais523> `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:18:45 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
00:18:49 <ais523> `! c_intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:18:50 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c_intercal: not found
00:18:52 <wob_jonas> but one of those interpreters calls a C compiler
00:18:57 <ais523> hmm, I thought we spent a while getting that workign a while ago
00:19:09 <ais523> `intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:19:09 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: intercal: not found
00:19:20 <wob_jonas> ``` /bin/ls ibin
00:19:21 <HackEso> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ lua \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ slashes \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda \ whirl
00:19:42 <ais523> `! bf_txtgen Hello, world!
00:19:43 <HackEso> ibin/bf_txtgen: line 6: java: command not found
00:19:51 <oerjan> i guess intercal wasn't one of the ones we got working
00:19:58 <ais523> `java Main
00:19:59 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: java: not found
00:20:15 <oerjan> ais523: i suppose java was always outside, and fizzie hasn't included it
00:20:20 <ais523> it takes a lot of effort to fit Java on a line of IRC as it is
00:20:28 <wob_jonas> `! c int main() { printf("hello, world."); }
00:20:30 <HackEso> Does not compile.
00:20:31 <ais523> also, that list is shorter than I remember
00:20:35 <ais523> `! intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:20:35 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/intercal: not found
00:20:37 <ais523> `! cintercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
00:20:38 <HackEso> sh: 1: gcc: not found
00:20:40 <wob_jonas> `! c int main() { printf("hello, world."); return 0; }
00:20:41 <ais523> there we go
00:20:41 <HackEso> Does not compile.
00:20:46 <ais523> it still doesn't work, but at least I remember the name
00:20:46 <wob_jonas> `! c int main( void) { printf("hello, world."); return 0; }
00:20:47 <HackEso> Does not compile.
00:21:05 <ais523> IIRC !c / `! c is very finicky aobut trying to get it to work
00:21:11 <ais523> `! c printf("Hello, world!\n");
00:21:12 <HackEso> Does not compile.
00:21:23 <ais523> it was meant to work for both full programs and program fragments
00:21:26 <ais523> but neither actually does
00:21:38 <oerjan> `which gcc
00:21:39 <HackEso> No output.
00:21:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: well you just got "gcc: not found" above, which could be an alternate explanation
00:21:45 <oerjan> ok it's that bad...
00:21:45 <wob_jonas> yeah, that
00:22:07 <ais523> `` gcc
00:22:08 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: gcc: command not found
00:22:09 <wob_jonas> `! k 'hello'
00:22:10 <HackEso> ​!"#$%^&* 0123456789
00:22:10 <ais523> `` cc
00:22:11 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/cc: 2: /hackenv/bin/cc: gcc: not found
00:22:25 <ais523> oh, cc must be a wrapper for gcc, which isn't there
00:22:28 <wob_jonas> `! k '
00:22:29 <HackEso> ​!"#$%^&* 0123456789
00:22:32 <wob_jonas> `! k +
00:22:33 <HackEso> ​!"#$%^&* 0123456789
00:22:34 <wob_jonas> `! k
00:22:34 <ais523> `find / -name '*cc'
00:22:35 <HackEso> find: ‘/ -name '*cc'’: No such file or directory
00:22:36 <HackEso> ​!"#$%^&* 0123456789
00:22:40 <ais523> `` find / -name '*cc'
00:23:05 <ais523> to be fair that find command will probably time out, reading the entire filesystem is fairly slow
00:23:11 <wob_jonas> what language is k? there's at least two languages called that, and ... come on, what language prints this for no input?
00:23:11 <HackEso> find: ‘/proc/tty/driver’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/task/1/fd’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/task/1/ns’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/fd’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/map_files’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/fdinfo’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/1/ns’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/2/task/2/fd’: Permission denied \ find: ‘/proc/
00:23:21 <ais523> `` find / -name '*cc' 2>/dev/null
00:23:41 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, it's just an ASCII table, so it's not /that/ implausilbe
00:23:52 <HackEso> No output.
00:23:53 <Sgeo_> https://sgeo.github.io/experimental/vice32/x64.html
00:23:57 <ais523> or, hmm, except for that gap between * and 0
00:24:22 <oerjan> does -name take globs?
00:24:43 <oerjan> `where cc
00:24:44 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
00:24:49 <wob_jonas> wob_jonas: https://esolangs.org/wiki/K doesn't explicitly mention that that's the default output
00:25:00 <oerjan> hmph
00:25:05 <wob_jonas> and it's also way too new
00:25:09 <ais523> oerjan: yes
00:25:24 <ais523> this is the most common use of find IME so I'm quite familiar with it
00:25:26 <wob_jonas> it can't be Arthur Whitney's K either
00:25:34 <wob_jonas> that one was what I was hoping for
00:25:50 <oerjan> `` which -a cc
00:25:51 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/cc
00:26:03 <oerjan> `` which -a tcc
00:26:04 <HackEso> No output.
00:26:14 <wob_jonas> I agree with that that's the most common use of find
00:26:49 <oerjan> `url ibin/k
00:26:50 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/ibin/k
00:27:12 <oerjan> oh :P
00:27:17 <oerjan> `cat ibin/k
00:27:17 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo '!"#$%^&* 0123456789'
00:27:29 <oerjan> `doag ibin/k
00:27:30 <HackEso> 1075:2012-12-14 <Gregör> mkdir ibin; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep \'\\. lib/interp\' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf \'#!/bin/sh\\nCMD=`cut -d\' \' -f1 "$1"`\\nARG=`cut -d\' \' -f2- "$2"`\\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"\' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp
00:27:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
00:27:57 <ais523> perhaps we're seeing the aftermath of a prank played back in 2012
00:28:15 <wob_jonas> and would like to add that since Windows's default GUI lost the easy way to search for a file on the fs or in a directory recursively by name, and that sucks, but you can just install git for windows to get a working unix find, and it's a standalone program you can just execute from cmd without any environment variable or library or msys or mingw c
00:28:15 <wob_jonas> omplications.
00:28:41 <wob_jonas> just be careful because the Windows path already has an executable named FIND
00:28:50 <wob_jonas> inherited from DOS
00:29:05 <wob_jonas> so I use a batch file with a different name to invoke the unix-style find
00:30:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: lol
00:30:30 <oerjan> `doag lib/interp/k
00:30:32 <HackEso> No output.
00:30:51 <ais523> the general culture in #esoteric has changed over time
00:30:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:31:02 <wob_jonas> ``` for x in ibin/*; do cmp -s "$x" ibin/k && echo "k=$x"; done
00:31:04 <HackEso> k=ibin/k
00:31:16 <wob_jonas> hmm, no other copies
00:31:34 <ais523> it's been a long time since I've seen anyone esoprogramming live in the channel, for example
00:32:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I did that at some point, but yes, a long way
00:32:36 <wob_jonas> well, at least if you count obfuscated programming or golf rather than programming in an esoteric language
00:33:04 <oerjan> `doag bin/k
00:33:06 <HackEso> 1075:2012-12-14 <Gregör> mkdir ibin; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep \'\\. lib/interp\' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf \'#!/bin/sh\\nCMD=`cut -d\' \' -f1 "$1"`\\nARG=`cut -d\' \' -f2- "$2"`\\nexec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"\' > bin/interp; chmod 0755 bin/interp \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
00:33:58 <oerjan> `` hg cat -r 0 bin/k
00:33:59 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ echo '!"#$%^&* 0123456789'
00:34:38 <wob_jonas> `hg log -r 1075 --template "{rev} | {files}"
00:34:39 <HackEso> hg: unknown command 'log -r 1075 --template "{rev} | {files}"' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff repository (or selected files) \ export dump the header and dif
00:34:39 <ais523> golfing programs only became popular here fairly recently
00:34:45 <wob_jonas> ``` hg log -r 1075 --template "{rev} | {files}"
00:34:46 <HackEso> 1075 | bin/1l bin/2l bin/? bin/@ bin/adjust bin/asm bin/axo bin/bch bin/befunge bin/befunge98 bin/bf bin/bf16 bin/bf32 bin/bf8 bin/boolfuck bin/c bin/cintercal bin/clcintercal bin/cxx bin/dimensifuck bin/forth bin/glass bin/glypho bin/haskell bin/k bin/kipple bin/lambda bin/lazyk bin/linguine bin/malbolge bin/pbrain bin/qbf bin/rail bin/rhotor bin/sadol bin/sceql bin/sh bin/trigger bin/udage01 bin/underload bin/unlambda bin/whirl ibin/1l ibin/2l ibin/? ibi
00:34:55 <ais523> for a while I think people thought of program shortening as demoscene-type stuff like the IOCCC
00:35:04 <oerjan> i think k was an irrelevant program that just happened to match Gregor's grep
00:35:18 <oerjan> and thus got moved into ibin
00:35:19 <ais523> oerjan: oh, that's plausible
00:35:42 <ais523> also it's surprising how outdated that list of languages is nowadays
00:35:52 <ais523> egobot could run from pastebins, that's how it handled larger programs
00:35:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: but I'd like to take partial credit for programming in Borland C in DOS live on #esoteric-spam or whatever that side channel is called
00:36:11 <ais523> I think the idea with hackego was /meant/ to be that we'd keep it up to date with new languages as time goes on
00:36:21 <ais523> but instead it became a playground for stupidity and messing around
00:36:50 <zzo38> You can do both
00:37:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: how did wisdom and quotes start? does it predate HackEgo? did EgoBot handle them?
00:37:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: they came shortly after HackEgo did
00:37:26 <wob_jonas> I see.
00:37:37 <ais523> EgoBot didn't have anything like that, it was only marginally stateful and the state was frequently wiped
00:37:57 <wob_jonas> because I can totally see the wisdom database being something worth to save from EgoBot, and there are a ton of IRC bots on other channels that do learn-like stuff
00:39:08 <ais523> somehow our wisdom database ended up mostly full of bad puns rather than useful facts
00:39:38 <wob_jonas> that's sort of reasonable on this channel
00:39:51 <wob_jonas> I mean, given the general culture of esolangs
00:40:03 <wob_jonas> and the old joke languages and INTERCAL's bad puns
00:40:31 <ais523> there aren't many puns in INTERCAL
00:41:38 <ais523> there's a lot of humour and ridiculousness but it's of a different type, I think
00:42:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: maybe not puns, but I think some of the humor is similar. the class/lesson thing in modern intercal is definitely based on a bad pun, and I think it's in line with existing intercal culture.
00:44:46 <ais523> that's weird because "class" for a set of related lectures reminds me more of american english than british english, and yet Claudio Calvelli is Scottish
00:46:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: how about "class" as a group of students sitting together on yhe same school lessons?
00:46:41 <ais523> yes, that works in British English
00:47:24 <ais523> but "classes and lectures" puts the setting as a university, which normally doesn't have that sort of class because the various peoples' schedules are so varied
00:47:50 <wob_jonas> I admit I don't really know how intercal classes work
00:48:19 <ais523> I think it's pretty much equivalent to some standard mildly-OO primitive
00:48:30 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i think stirrup jars are named because of the shape of the handle
00:49:01 <ais523> but I'm not an expert on the bits of CLC-INTERCAL that I didn't add to C-INTERCAL
00:49:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan: interesting
00:50:58 <ais523> the apparently really crazy part is the "belongs to / enslave" operation (which is a separate feature that's mentioned alongside the OO stuff), which apparently is entirely different from a pointer
00:51:11 <wob_jonas> wow, "stirrup jar" isn't even in my Oxford dictionary. mind you, it has five other phrases starting with "stirrup"
00:51:25 <ais523> although operand overloading seems to be a sufficiently good to handle call-by-reference anyway
00:53:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: as very often, zzo38 is the one you'd have to ask
00:54:02 <fizzie> The fungot outage is because I've moved and haven't set everything up.
00:54:15 <wob_jonas> hi fizzie!
00:54:21 <fizzie> Stalker mode should be up and running though.
00:54:25 <fizzie> Works for me, anyway.
00:54:31 <fizzie> Hob_jonas.
00:55:00 <wob_jonas> also, ais523 and fizzie: https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-07.html#lsb most quoted nicks.
00:55:25 <wob_jonas> fungot is second in the list, and ais523 fifth
00:56:05 <ais523> I didn't realise I was that quotable
00:56:10 <ais523> `' <ais523>
00:56:11 <wob_jonas> I remember the "formally trained for tuning harps" quote
00:56:11 <HackEso> 24) <ais523> after all, what are DVD players for? \ 69) <ais523> so a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.com might be self-relative, but a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com always means a.b.c.d.e.f.g.h.i.j.k.l.com.? \ 70) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 77) <ais523> (still, whatever possessed anyone to invent the N-Gage?) \ 78) <ais523> theory: some amused deity is making the laws of
00:56:58 <fizzie> `quote end to all
00:56:59 <HackEso> 434) <fungot> fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all.
00:57:03 <fizzie> That's the one fungot quote I remember.
00:57:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's not just about being quotable, but the other factor (literally) about having cumulatively participated much in this channel, despite how rarely you enter these days
00:57:37 <wob_jonas> when you do enter, you often get into *interesting* conversations
00:57:52 <wob_jonas> `quote harp
00:57:53 <HackEso> 1290) <ais523> hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps
00:58:20 <ais523> wob_jonas: I'm not a fan of boring conversations
00:58:43 <wob_jonas> I checked for the statistics after getting two adjacent lines in quotes added by different users
00:58:43 <ais523> I actually cut back on idling here considerably a while ago because it wasn't having interesting conversations any more (although it's improved since), I was mostly gone for months
00:59:22 <ais523> (that's a different situation from the one where I cut back on IRC altogether because I was busy)
00:59:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: the annoying part, for me, is that you're always here at late night, and those interesting conversations keep me from sleeping
01:00:03 <wob_jonas> that night schedule also the problem why I chose to not visit twitch.tv at all for a while
01:00:17 <wob_jonas> motivated me too much to stay up late
01:00:28 <ais523> I find it hard to stick to the same day/night schedule as other people in my time zone
01:00:34 <ais523> it tends to creep forwards over time
01:00:52 <ais523> although more recently I've had luck with allowing my schedule to get later and later and then resetting it with a very short day
01:00:53 <wob_jonas> me too. but that's why I have to protect myself against things that motivate me.
01:01:43 <wob_jonas> `quote <HackEgo>
01:01:44 <HackEso> 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 305) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> ​352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 306) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> ​352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 407) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> ​352) <
01:01:53 <oerjan> i use to reset with very long days, although if i try to hard it backfires
01:01:58 <oerjan> *too
01:02:22 <oerjan> it's become harder over the years
01:02:25 <wob_jonas> what? 352 doesn't seem to match that.
01:02:54 <wob_jonas> oh I see
01:02:57 <wob_jonas> recursive quotes
01:03:39 <oerjan> the django recursions were a bit of a slow-running gag for a while
01:03:41 <ais523> olsner was annoyed at being quoted only with relation to django, so obviously people ended up added more olsner/django quotes (many of which were just quotes of each other)
01:04:23 <wob_jonas> `quote 316
01:04:23 <HackEso> 316) <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django
01:05:03 <wob_jonas> it gets even worse
01:05:17 <wob_jonas> `quote 317
01:05:18 <HackEso> 317) <elliott_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django <olsner> elliott_: another quote? you're not helping :/
01:05:23 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the other day i was thinking about the english "buffalo buffalo buffalo ..." thing and remembered that "hogy hogy hogy" quote. how many "hogy" can you have in sequence in grammatically correct hungarian?
01:06:07 -!- pimlu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:07:08 <oerjan> (allowing punctuation)
01:07:12 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I don't think there's a limit, but "hogy" is a pretty common word and a grammar word, sort of like "que" in French, and Hungarian speakers tend to avoid or drop adjacent instances of "hogy" less often than French speakers tend to avoid or drop adjacent instances of "que"
01:07:27 <wob_jonas> it's not like "buffalo" at all
01:07:30 <ais523> wob_jonas: anyway, one thing I was thinking about recently is "what's the computational class of contract bridge", then realised that we're focusing on the play (not the auctions) so we actually care about whist
01:07:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: more like "had"?
01:08:09 <wob_jonas> see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2012-08-07.2061.html about double "que"
01:08:41 <ais523> my current belief is that if you generalise it by allowing arbitrarily large numbers of suits and cards per suit, it becomes NP-complete, (I think you can probably implement subset sum in it), but I'm not sure because it represents numbers in unary and that can mess up NP-completeness proofs
01:09:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, more like "that", but worse. English has "that that" pretty often, but the uses of "que" and "hogy" make it even worse, making triples more likely. "that that that" is unlikely in English.
01:10:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, so you'd increase the number of suits too, not just the number of ranks? hmm
01:10:19 <ais523> it'd be nice to generalise it in just one direction
01:10:22 <ais523> but two is easier to program in
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01:10:58 <wob_jonas> I don't know enough bridge to really guess this, sadly. people tried to teach me once, but I determined it's not the game for me, so by now I forgot all the tactics
01:11:22 <ais523> I'm really interested in it
01:11:27 <ais523> but programming in it isn't much like actually playing it
01:12:34 <wob_jonas> I still remember a bit of ulti and snapszer tactics, they're still related games with taking tricks in rounds, each player playing one card per round in turn order, last person to take tricks calls, must follow suit if can, and in ulti there may be a trump color, in snapszer there always is
01:13:02 <wob_jonas> but in actual tactics and strategy and feel, they're totally different games from bridge or, I think, whist
01:14:51 <wob_jonas> I guess in some sense the game of whist play you are considering is in some form the essential pure form of a four-player trick card game
01:15:27 <ais523> whist is basically the simplest case of a four-player trick-taking game, with the only real twist being that the scores for players sitting opposite are added together (they count as allies) so you can try to give tricks to your partner rather than taking them yourself
01:16:17 <wob_jonas> whereas snapszer has one of two different twists on it (depending on whether it's three or four-player snapszer, or two-player snapszer, which are very different games), and ulti has so many twists the whole thing is unrecognizable
01:16:34 <zzo38> I know how to play whist
01:17:40 <oerjan> . o O ( he said, whistfully )
01:20:10 <ais523> I think the reason I like contract bridge is that trying to create bidding systems is a bit like esoprogramming
01:20:24 <ais523> although you're creating a language to communicate to humans, not computers, you have a very limited bandwidth with which to do so
01:22:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: so it's sort of like creating a golf language, but with the golf scoring being less straightforward than just "you get this many bits"?
01:22:27 <wob_jonas> yeah, I can sort of see the similarity
01:25:37 <wob_jonas> Hmm, there was a better post somewhere on David's blog about "que que", but I can't find it now
01:27:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: the hard part is that you're trying to agree on the best contract to play in but you have to realise what it is before you go past it
01:28:17 <ais523> because the last bid is the one you play in and each bid has to be strictly greater than the one before
01:28:27 <ais523> so part of your communication is trying to establish how many bits you have left!
01:29:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: high-level play of contract bridge also has such an esoprogramming aspect, because some people have systems to encode information useful for their partner in the little noise in their cards played, eg. when replying with an odd or even low card from a color you're long at indicates (with a low correlation) which of the two other non-trump c
01:29:22 <wob_jonas> olors you want called
01:30:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think whist could theoretically have such a system, and in generalized whist that could be strengthened
01:30:18 <wob_jonas> so the best strategy for a pair playing whist isn't obvious
01:30:49 <wob_jonas> these signaling systems feel like golf-eso-programming the same way as bidding systems
01:31:08 <wob_jonas> of course the bidding system has a much larger impact on real games of bridge
01:31:21 <ais523> nah, the signalling is actually more important
01:32:22 <ais523> say good play means you score 10 tricks rather than 9, and it's close in the bidding so you bid either 4 Hearts (a promise to reach 10 tricks) or 3 Hearts (a promise to reach 9)
01:32:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: signaling certainly, but the part of the signaling system that you're free to create, rather than the part where much of the signaling system is determined by the rules and playing to win
01:32:43 <ais523> bidding and making 10 scores the most, then making 10 but bidding 9, then making 9 but bidding 9, then making 9 but bidding 10
01:33:17 <ais523> so getting more tricks in the play has a larger impact in the score than bidding to the right level, as long as you're somewhere near where you're supposed to be
01:33:53 <ais523> however, bridge's rules are incredibly non-objective
01:34:06 <wob_jonas> it seeems like you get more noise bits to use in the bidding system, and so few noise bits during play that you rarely get games when the custom signaling system makes any difference, but very often get games when the crazy custom bidding system decides the game
01:34:06 <ais523> in most places "encrypted signals" are banned, and "dual meaning signals" are banned except when discarding
01:34:10 <ais523> and these aren't precisely defined anywhere
01:34:27 <ais523> also the defenders get huge numbers of noise bits during the play
01:34:39 <ais523> given that you're defending, most of the tricks are highly likely to be unwinnable
01:34:49 <ais523> so on most tricks you have a choice of useless cards to discard
01:35:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: they aren't encrypted. you're signaling during play as the defender, and they help your partner even if the lone player knows what you're signaling, just like how the bidding system helps your partner even if your opponent knows what your bids mean
01:35:48 <ais523> there are 13 tricks per round, I'd say that on half of them both defenders get a chance to signal, on the most of the others one will
01:35:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't know what you mean by "dual meaning signals" though
01:36:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: well "encrypted signals" is things like "from the bidding we know that one of us has the King of Diamonds but the declarer doesn't know which, so let's signal 'either I have an even number of hearts and the King of Diamonds, or I have an odd number of hearts but not the King of Diamodns'"
01:37:06 <ais523> dual meaning signals is basically encoding more than one bit into a single discard
01:37:15 <ais523> err, a single follow (you're allowed to do it on a discard)
01:37:33 <ais523> I think because such signals are so prone to being misunderstood or not having an appropriate card that it makes the result of the game kind-of random
01:37:44 <wob_jonas> ah, so by encrypted signals, you don't mean signals when the opponent team doesn't get the key
01:38:04 <ais523> yes; they know what the signal /means/ but don't have enough information to deduce anything useful from the meaning
01:38:34 <wob_jonas> they're signals _deliberately_ seeded by information hidden from the opponent, as opposed to all the information your partner automatically gets to understand from knowing his hand but the opponent doesn't understand
01:38:39 <ais523> yes
01:38:44 <wob_jonas> ok
01:40:34 <wob_jonas> but are encrypted meanings allowed in the bidding system? because it seems hard to define what would count as deliberately seeded, versus just a consequence of trying to get the best bidding system and using all the information your partner already has
01:41:55 <wob_jonas> I mean, it's normal for some meanings in a bidding system to be ambiguous and that they're optimized for that the partner can disambiguate them from his hand
01:43:23 <ais523> wob_jonas: encryption of that sort is allowed
01:43:38 <ais523> one of the most commonly seen conventions, 4NT blackwood, just shows the number of aces you hold
01:44:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that the one that shows the number of aces modulo 4 or modulo 3?
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01:44:16 <wob_jonas> welcome back pimlu
01:44:17 <ais523> and that's sort-of an encrypted convention because there's no way to figure out which
01:44:27 <wob_jonas> so we didn't scare you away after your first day? good
01:44:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: there are multiple versions of it, the original was mod 4
01:44:40 <ais523> is pimlu the person who wrote the optimized Fractran interpreter?
01:44:45 <wob_jonas> yes
01:44:48 <ais523> I like optimized esolang interpreters
01:45:17 <ais523> although it's most interesting when they "decompile" the esolang into higher-level constructs which they can simulate all at once
01:45:20 <wob_jonas> I can understand that, given your perverse fascination in turing tarpits that force a slowdown worse than fractran
01:45:22 <ais523> (like the "polynomial loop optimisation" in BF)
01:45:35 <wob_jonas> (sorry)
01:45:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: well, the way I look at it, the language is designed to convey /meaning/
01:45:53 <ais523> it doesn't make sense that the language should have to convey an /algorithm/ too
01:46:02 <ais523> specifying an algorithm is just one way to specify a meaning, and not even a commonly used on
01:46:04 <ais523> *one
01:46:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: after studying making writeups about (0)
01:46:37 <wob_jonas> argh
01:47:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: after studying Amycus and (0), it's now pretty hypothetical of me to complain about double exponentially slow languages
01:47:17 <wob_jonas> um
01:47:22 <wob_jonas> not hypothetical
01:47:24 <wob_jonas> what's the word
01:47:27 <wob_jonas> hypocritical
01:47:29 <ais523> hypocritical?
01:47:58 <ais523> which is a strange word etymologically as based on its constituent parts, it should mean "below/less than the amount needed to cause a transition"
01:48:02 <wob_jonas> and I must count M:tG too
01:48:12 <wob_jonas> M:tG as an esolang
01:48:14 <ais523> perhaps the meaning is "not criticising oneself enough"
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01:48:58 <wob_jonas> oh, we did scare him away
01:49:01 <ais523> I guess we use "subcritical"/"supercritical", not "hypocritical"/"hypercritical"
01:49:43 <wob_jonas> hmm, what's the Hungarian translation for "hypocrite"...
01:50:31 <wob_jonas> I think there was a good word, but it's rare and I don't recall it this late in the night
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01:52:49 <wob_jonas> or I forgot it deliberately because it mostly comes up in flamewars for blaming people with inconsistently applying their supposed religious beliefs or moral or political principles, and I don't want to read those kinds of flamewars
01:53:04 <wob_jonas> ah, I know
01:53:13 <wob_jonas> it's “álszent”
01:53:29 <wob_jonas> which implies something like "pretending to be saintly"
01:53:54 <wob_jonas> so it actually has a good etymology
01:54:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: is there a synonym like that in English?
01:54:18 <wob_jonas> a synonym of "hypocrite" that is
01:54:38 <ais523> not sure if there's a single word for it, there's almost certainly a phrase for it
01:54:44 <ais523> but we have too many phrases and it can be hard to remember them all
01:54:58 <wob_jonas> yes, there's a phrase in Hungarian too, "bort iszik és vizet prédikál"
01:55:15 <wob_jonas> which means something like "drink wine but preaches water"
01:55:23 <wob_jonas> s/drink/drinks/
01:55:47 <wob_jonas> something like that existed in English I think
01:55:49 <ais523> "do as I say, not as I do" is a fairly well-known phrase
01:56:21 <wob_jonas> let's see... https://english.stackexchange.com/q/6961/32815
01:56:55 <wob_jonas> that mentions "I am a prophet, not a saint" which sounds pretty close
01:57:51 <wob_jonas> although the question here is about a word or phrase for a hypocrite who admits that they are a hypocrite
01:59:54 <wob_jonas> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/50168/what-is-a-less-offensive-synonym-for-hypocrite gives some phrases too, "Not walking the walk", "pretender", "cafeteria Christian" (for a more specific meaning), "faker".
02:01:03 <wob_jonas> I really hope pimlu will return. We want those kinds of people here.
02:02:45 <zzo38> Yes, is good they can be on, they have stuff with esoteric programming too so it is good
02:17:43 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> ais523: is there a synonym like that in English? <-- sanctimonious
02:18:27 <wob_jonas> oerjan: thank you
02:21:50 * oerjan had to look up what the norwegian synonym is, "hykler"
02:22:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: did you also have to look up what the norwegian for a "stirrup jar" is?
02:24:15 <oerjan> i didn't do that yet
02:24:29 <oerjan> although stirrup is stigbøyle
02:26:12 <oerjan> there doesn't seem to be a norwegian wikipedia article, although swedish is "bygelkanna" which would convert to "bøylekanne"
02:26:58 <wob_jonas> I see.
02:28:11 <oerjan> the term doesn't google well :)
02:29:19 <wob_jonas> the term in what language?
02:31:08 <oerjan> norwegian. the two sensible hits are some shop catalog, i suspect a modern gardening jug
02:31:31 <wob_jonas> I'll have to read David Madore's twitter feed from now on, in addition to checking out his blog. It turns out that he tweeted about the museum fire on --09-03, but didn't post a blog entry or blog comment, so I didn't notice.
02:31:53 <wob_jonas> I see
02:32:13 <oerjan> i suspect few norwegians have researched the things
02:33:00 <oerjan> oh duh the english is "can"
02:33:43 <oerjan> (not jug)
02:34:03 <oerjan> the scandinavian "kanne" can mean either
02:34:09 <wob_jonas> oerjan: no, it's definitely "stirrup jar", not "stirrup can". Thank god, "stirrup can" would be even worse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirrup_jar
02:34:53 <oerjan> wob_jonas: sorry, i'm just jumping context here
02:34:55 <wob_jonas> because "can" is ambiguous that is
02:35:09 <wob_jonas> more so than "jar"
02:35:53 <wob_jonas> "few norwegians have researched the things" => or if they have, they've written about it in languages other than norvegian, because it's science research
02:36:03 <oerjan> yeah
02:39:53 <oerjan> argh i hate it when the address line autocompletes a shorter word to a longer i've already looked up
02:40:17 <oerjan> (got to "cantare" instead of "can")
02:44:04 <oerjan> wiktionary's two first noun meanings are "kanne", the third would be "boks"
02:45:49 <oerjan> (which naturally also means "box", except when "box" is "eske" :P
02:45:53 <oerjan> )
02:46:41 <oerjan> (cardboard boxes in particular are "esker")
02:47:47 <oerjan> although i'm not sure what's the defining difference
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07:15:41 * Taneb hello!
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10:10:56 <wob_jonas> I had the strangest dream related to #esoteric.
10:11:06 <wob_jonas> Um, strangest so far, I must qualify.
10:14:54 <wob_jonas> In this dream, ais523 wrote a book. Not some super-technical book about his maths resarch at work, something slightly more popular, although it might still be one about esoteric topics.
10:15:59 <wob_jonas> The book also had a co-author. In the dream, I first saw the e-book version of the book, or perhaps some samples of it only. It had images of what looked sort of like M:tG cards, but really strange. The part I recall distinctly are the strange mana symbols in the mana cost line:
10:17:53 <wob_jonas> There were no ordinary generic mana symbols, instead there was a symbol that was a light grey disk of the sort in generic mana symbols with merely a black dot in its center, this meant the same as {1} but was used in the cost line repeated at least three times in one card (instead of saying {3}), and to the right of colored mana symbols.
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10:18:55 <wob_jonas> There were also strange variant colored mana symbols, probably inspired in my head by the Settlers of Catan: Cities and knights expansion.
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10:30:05 <wob_jonas> Specifically, there was a blue mana symbol that waa shaped like a sterotypical small purse of gold coins, representing lawbreaking or bribe in flavor, and the rule for it was something like you pay a blue mana like normal, but when you do that, an opponent may reveal a card with a variant red "law enforcement catches you" mana symbol, and then you
10:30:05 <wob_jonas> get some big penalty. Yes, this goes against the color wheel, but in my dream those were definitely the colors.
10:30:45 <wob_jonas> There were other variant colored mana symbols too, and some other graphical changes on the cards, but I don't remember those.
10:31:33 <wob_jonas> pimlu: pay no attention to the tale I'm telling. I didn't want to scare you away from the channel yesterday, and don't want to scare you away today either. It's stupid off-topic stuff, appears on IRC all the time, don't let it bother you.
10:33:08 <wob_jonas> After waking, I have two theories of how these strange mana costs appeared: either they were from some set released by Wizards in the future when I wasn't reading M:tG news and so I saw these in that book first, or the co-author is zzo38 but I didn't recognize his real name.
10:33:16 <wob_jonas> Because I'm quite sure ais523 wouldn't invent those.
10:33:27 <wob_jonas> Anyway, the kicker came later in the dream.
10:35:22 <wob_jonas> The kicker was when then I saw a dead-tree copy of the book.
10:36:22 <wob_jonas> The book was distributed with what looked like fresh salad (and possibly other food) in a thin transparent plastic container that looks like the throwaway containers to sell food for take-away that you eat the day you buy them.
10:36:55 <wob_jonas> It looked and smelled fresh, not deep-frozen, and the container didn't look like it was sealed airtight.
10:37:42 <wob_jonas> After waking, my best theory is that looks are deceiving, it was deep-frozen but looked fresh because modern food industry can do that, and it was sealed airtight and I only imagined the smell.
10:38:02 <wob_jonas> Or perhaps the container got broken by the time I looked at it.
10:38:40 <wob_jonas> But even then, this makes no sense for a book for obvious reasons.
10:40:00 <wob_jonas> But I also remember the OSzK (the national library) telling me that they store a copy of every item that's distributed with a book or periodical they have, not necessarily with the book but somewhere,
10:41:30 <wob_jonas> and that the most often this is just a floppy disk or CD, but pop magazines sometimes distribute promotional items that are stranger than that, and occasionally it even happens with more serious journals that they do archive, so they have a small collection of strange items.
10:41:55 <wob_jonas> And then I wondered, how could you abuse this policy to make it hard on the OSzK.
10:42:28 <int-e> `? alice
10:42:30 <HackEso> Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
10:43:10 <wob_jonas> And I think I found a good solution. Distribute a periodical with an article about dietary supplements, and enclose a leaf of ten multivitamin pills with a hard shell (so they don't easily get crushed) as a promotional item.
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10:44:16 <wob_jonas> That wouldn't cause any problem with the normal distribution chain, because those multivitamin tablets can be stored for two years even in hot weather, and no newspaper stand or book store would keep an issue of a periodical for longer than that,
10:45:21 <wob_jonas> but the multivitamin pills also can't be stored for more than three or four years, because of expiry, and are also totally worthless if you can't consume them, so it would be pointless for the OSzK to archive them.
10:46:10 <wob_jonas> If they tried to store it for over four years, they could probably even get a fine for ignoring food safety laws.
10:47:12 <wob_jonas> Their best choice would be to discard the pills before letting it get in anyone's hand, after describing it in the catalog of course.
10:48:04 <wob_jonas> They certainly couldn't be held against that rule about storing every junk distributed with journals if there was a good reason not to store an item.
10:49:58 <wob_jonas> int-e: meh, this was nothing compared to a few dreams I had. I had dreams that were very scary while dreaming but no longer scary after waking up, dreams that were not scary while dreaming but scary when I thought about them afterwards, and dreams that were scary in the dream and after. This was neither. It was just strange.
10:52:00 <wob_jonas> Unrelated: http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/09/05/open-thread-109-75/#comment-666229 has one of these surreal discussions, when random visitors from the internet discuss a strange topic seriously and there happen to be all sorts of experts who can add bits to it.
10:52:35 <wob_jonas> This time it's about the biblical David & Goliath story, and there's the usual group of experts in mediaeval weaponry and armor, plus contemporary martial arts experts. I started laughing before I even got to the actually good bit.
10:53:19 <wob_jonas> The good bit starts at “<DavidFriedman> I happened to have in the closet a Japanese spear, I assume a form of Yari, which always struck me as having a very much too heavy head. So I weighed the head–about 3 1/2 lbs.”
10:54:23 <wob_jonas> And then an analysis of whether Goliath could have used a spear with a head weighing 5 kg, or whether it was a ceremonial spear or staff or sceptre and he used only more practical weapons in combat.
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16:11:31 <zzo38> If you have those kind of bribery in Magic: the Gathering, then such bribery mana symbol can be any colors, and that "law enforcement catches you" is a keyword ability rather than a mana symbol.
16:13:05 <zzo38> I also dreamt of two new mana symbols, which are "queen mana" and "energy mana" (the latter is somewhat like the energy symbols that Wizards of the Coast has done much later than I dreamt it; the use of "queen mana" is unknown)
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17:01:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57541&oldid=57515 * Orisphera * (+139)
17:02:32 <esowiki> [[Asdf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57542&oldid=46062 * Orisphera * (+79) Added one more example
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18:04:27 <zzo38> I wrote a specification for HTTP Directory Listing: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/httpdirlist since, unlike other protocols HTTP does not support directory listing.
18:06:06 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this do you have a comment of it please?
18:25:19 <pikhq> I mean, WebDAV does allow that too...
18:25:28 <pikhq> Though, WebDAV sucks. :)
18:25:39 <zzo38> Yes, that is why we make a better specification.
18:26:11 <pikhq> One nice thing about your spec is it's fairly easy to retrofit into existing web server use.
18:26:46 <pikhq> You could readily allow for the common practice of the server just generating an HTML directory listing, and switch to this with an Accept: application/http-directory header.
18:27:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is the intention
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18:49:30 <zzo38> How to implement such thing like this with Apache?
18:49:41 <pikhq> I'm not certain.
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19:03:23 <olsner> `pastequotes hogy
19:03:24 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.28457
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2018-09-10
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00:13:18 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> Um, strangest so far, I must qualify. <-- i think the idiom "i've had the strangest ..." doesn't imply really being the strangest
00:13:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:27:42 <oerjan> `url %
00:27:43 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/%25
00:27:47 <oerjan> `url #
00:27:48 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/%23
00:30:46 <zzo38> I used the mknod command to make extra copies of /dev/null, but how commonly are you going to use such things? Sometimes it is helpful if different filenames are needed but still needing to be null, but probably usually you don't need such thing.
00:39:50 <zzo38> Do any television sets have a caption scrollback function?
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04:44:19 <zzo38> I read in some book of history of chess the possibility to derive chess moves from a magic square, but I do not know how. Do you know if such thing is possible, and if so, how?
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09:39:07 <wob_jonas> zzo38: chess and magic square => I haven't heard of such a thing, but tic-tac-toe can be played with a 3x3 magic square: instead of squares the players alternatingly play numbers from 1..9 inclusive that have not yet been played in the game, a player wins if that player has played any three numbers whose sum is exactly 15, and the game is draw if t
09:39:07 <wob_jonas> here's no valid move.
09:40:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I read that observation on tic tac toe from the book Csákány Béla, ''Diszkrét matematikai játékok'', but it might not be original to that
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10:12:19 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ustin.fitc * New user account
10:14:54 <wob_jonas> oerjan: re browser url bar autocomplete, try to fiddle with the about:config settings containing urlbar.
10:15:11 <wob_jonas> there's like a dozen booleans there, you just have to guess the right combination
10:17:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57543&oldid=57541 * Ustin.fitc * (+83)
10:23:10 <wob_jonas> lol. "Use of this site also constitutes acceptance of its <a ...>Terms of Service and Privacy Policies</a>, which are known to medical science as a cure for insomnia."
10:26:20 <Taneb> I could have done with that last night...
10:26:33 <Taneb> Went to bed at half ten, didn't get to sleep until after 1
10:26:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:NULL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57544&oldid=8218 * Ustin.fitc * (+569) /* Is that "Hello World" number correct? */
11:28:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:NULL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57545&oldid=57544 * Ustin.fitc * (+491)
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14:43:37 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57546&oldid=57520 * Blacksilver * (-94) Change the spec for I/O.
14:44:09 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57547&oldid=57546 * Blacksilver * (-16) Moving the commands header to the subpage
14:44:25 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57548&oldid=57513 * Blacksilver * (+16)
14:45:14 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57549&oldid=57548 * Blacksilver * (-2) ADDI does not concatenate keywords.
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17:53:04 <wob_jonas> ohi
17:53:56 <wob_jonas> So, I understand why Wizards wants to put "Ravnica" in the set names, but don't you think that "Guilds of Ravnica" and "Ravnica Allegiance" are a bit confusing as set names because they're too similar to existing ones?
17:54:55 <wob_jonas> And yes, I know "allegiance" means something different from "alliance" (which the Guildpact is) but still.
17:57:38 <wob_jonas> I mean, can't they just find something _unique_ about that set that they can put in a concise set name? Those names would work for half of the previous six Ravnica sets.
17:58:24 <wob_jonas> "Guilds of Ravnica" -- Ravnica is returning. And, guess what, it's returning and showing that it has _guilds_. What a surprise.
18:00:18 <wob_jonas> Wizards is usually creative in giving card names
18:03:02 <wob_jonas> I mean, I know they have over 200 set names by now, but if they can find over 10000 unique English card names (does anyone happen to know if it's reached 20000 yet?), how can set names be harder?
18:05:22 <wob_jonas> Even with the fact that they may try to be more conservative, because a really bad set name could have a worse effect than a really bad card name.
18:15:28 <wob_jonas> Are there golf languages that try to support imperative style, as in, that have lots of built-ins to mutate mutable containers in place in various ways, as well as mutable global or scope-local variables, and control structures useful in such programs? This could be in addition or mixed with functional style in a less concise golf language like bur
18:15:29 <wob_jonas> lesque.
18:15:41 <wob_jonas> Which golf languages are like that?
18:17:10 <wob_jonas> Arthur Whitney's K could sort of count, but I'd like a bit more than that.
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18:31:39 <Phantom_Hoover> wob_jonas, k basically doesn't support mutable objects at all
18:32:23 <Phantom_Hoover> mutable global variable bindings, sure, but that's very different
18:35:37 <wob_jonas> PH: doesn't it also have mutable local bindings, and... um, either mutable dictionaries passed by reference or cow-mutating operations on hashes? or something
18:35:57 <wob_jonas> yes, it's not really ideal, especially since it also has no closures, but still much better than what J has
18:36:21 <wob_jonas> anyway, I'd like something more imperative-centered than K
18:45:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't have an authoritative source or anything but my strong impression after working on it for a year is that there is absolutely no mutation of anything anywhere
18:45:55 <wob_jonas> ok
18:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> except perhaps as a transparent abstraction
18:46:29 <wob_jonas> so it's, like, all reference-counted and you can only mutate the root namespace, like in J?
18:46:34 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
18:46:41 <wob_jonas> well, J has a flat namespace hierarchy, but still
18:46:46 <wob_jonas> you get the idea
18:46:49 <wob_jonas> ok
18:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> well you can mutate function local variables and write while loops in functions
18:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> but, like, from a performance/optimisation point of view you can't do anything that counts
18:47:37 <wob_jonas> ok
18:48:05 <wob_jonas> because the function-local variables are on a plain stack, right? no mutable closures?
18:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> yep
18:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> no closures at all
18:48:20 <wob_jonas> I still don't understand how K's lambdas and local variables actually work
18:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> local variables are absolutely local to one function, if you want them passed down the stack they have to be passed explicitly as arguments
18:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> it's easy to understand tbh because it's totally bare-bones
18:49:21 <wob_jonas> ok
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18:49:55 <Phantom_Hoover> k function objects are basically maximally stripped down for interpreter simplicity and the semantics reflect that
18:50:18 <wob_jonas> and how do verbs formed by binding like (+1) behave? can you assign them to a value? what happens if you try to write something like p:(+k) where k is not a number but a local variable?
18:50:42 <wob_jonas> because J at least has immutable closures formed by binding
18:50:51 <wob_jonas> (not by lambda expressions, only by binding)
18:52:15 <wob_jonas> (and... well, it's complicated. actually there's like fifty primitive ways to compose stuff, but the point is, they are always immutable, but they do effectively capture some constants)
18:53:28 <wob_jonas> (and how some of it works isn't explained well in tutorials, but I think I understand most of it from experiments, and could explain it, except for how namespaces work, where I only have guesses)
18:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> partial application is just an object with a tag saying 'this is a partial application' and then a list of (function;arg1;arg2;etc...)
18:54:08 <Phantom_Hoover> so you can return it and bind it and whatever the same as any other object
18:55:13 <wob_jonas> PH: so you can create, at runtime without eval, an array containing multiple instances of syntactically the same binding but capturing different constants, like an array of length 1000 whose first element is (+0) and second element is (+1) and so on with code much shorter than 1000, and then shuffle that array and invoke any of the captures form th
18:55:14 <wob_jonas> at array?
18:55:40 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
18:56:13 <wob_jonas> right. I sort of have the impression that such manipulations have a more easy syntax to write in K than in J, even if the power is effectively the same.
18:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> q)(rand (+)@'til 10)5
18:56:16 <Phantom_Hoover> 13
18:56:36 <Phantom_Hoover> that's q not k ofc.
18:57:25 <Phantom_Hoover> (*1?+@'!10)5 in k
18:57:49 <wob_jonas> mind you, K has nice dictionaries, immutable according to what you said, but still, that's nice and not easy to emulate in J
18:58:08 <wob_jonas> not that I know how K dictionaries work, but still
18:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> they're lists but indexed by arbitrary objects rather than ints, basically
18:59:25 <wob_jonas> they sound convenient
18:59:27 <Phantom_Hoover> except with some weird fuckery if you're stupid enough to use lists as your indices
18:59:28 <wob_jonas> for brevity
19:00:22 <Phantom_Hoover> one thing k does that maybe other APLoids don't (idk) is that function application, list indexing and dict lookup are the exact same operation
19:00:27 <wob_jonas> huh? but aren't most of the composite objects lists or dictionaries? that makes it sound like you can only use numbers or characters or dictionaries as keys
19:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> well if you use atoms as keys dict lookup will automatically vectorise
19:01:19 <Phantom_Hoover> e.g. (`a`b`c!1 2 3) `a`b ==> 1 2
19:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> you definitely *can* use composite objects as keys but you will prob. shoot yourself in the foot unless you do so in a regimented way
19:03:13 <wob_jonas> at one point I was thinking of a hypothetical extension of J that would support first-class mutable cells, but with refcounting only like in perl (this would be a small extension over what namespaces can already do, so needs little syntax, but a new basic atom type),
19:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> lmao right check this shit out:
19:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> q)((`d`e;`a;`b;`c)!1 2 3 4)`a`b
19:03:37 <Phantom_Hoover> 0N
19:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> q)((`a;`b;`c;`d`e)!1 2 3 4)`a`b
19:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> 1 2
19:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> q)((`a;`b;`c;`d`e)!1 2 3 4)`d`e
19:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> 0N 0N
19:04:04 <wob_jonas> and also a first-class lambda expressions (this one needs a new syntax rule that makes the syntax impractical to describe in the terms the J dictionary uses, but can still be made fully backwards compatible, and also matching the spirit)
19:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> q)((`d`e;`a;`b;`c)!1 2 3 4)`d`e
19:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> 1
19:04:24 <Phantom_Hoover> like many edge-cases in k it basically comes down to pure guesswork
19:05:39 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: I don't really understand K to know what's you're trying there. (`a;`b;`c;`d`e) makes a list whose last element is a list, the first four elements are symbols. But what does ! do there?
19:08:24 <wob_jonas> let me check the manual...
19:12:50 <wob_jonas> um... I don't understand even after checking the manual. It seems as if you're calling ! dyadically with the left argument (`d`e;`a;`b;`c) and the right argument (1 2 3 4) . But the K manual seems to imply that that's not defined, ! is only defined if either the left or the right argument is a number atom.
19:12:53 <wob_jonas> Is that some Q addition?
19:13:00 <wob_jonas> Or am I parsing something wrong?
19:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> wob_jonas, list!list creates a dictionary
19:20:46 <Phantom_Hoover> with the left list as the keys and the right as the values
19:20:51 <wob_jonas> ah
19:20:55 <wob_jonas> so is that a Q addition?
19:21:25 <wob_jonas> I don't know where the full Q manuals are, if they exist
19:21:36 <wob_jonas> maybe they're not available for free
19:21:39 <Phantom_Hoover> no it's k
19:21:47 <wob_jonas> hmm
19:21:52 <Phantom_Hoover> q docs are all here http://code.kx.com/q/
19:22:09 <Phantom_Hoover> note that k3, k4 and k5/k6 are all significantly different languages
19:22:43 <Phantom_Hoover> and k4 is the undocumented implementation language for q (but all the operators are the same, at least in their 2-argument form)
19:23:02 <wob_jonas> that's bad, because I'm looking at this old short K2 reference manual
19:24:34 <wob_jonas> oh, so in Q, (.) or (@) aren't the most overloaded verbs, (!) is? interesting
19:26:49 <wob_jonas> wow. that looks... historically related to K, but very different at the same time
19:26:57 <wob_jonas> like, it probably evolved in steps from K
19:27:11 <wob_jonas> but the end result is hard to recognize
19:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i think ? or $ are the most overloaded when you factor in the triadic and tetradic forms and all the per-type overloads
19:30:15 <Phantom_Hoover> and \ technically isn't a verb but does a ridiculous variety of shit
19:31:16 <wob_jonas> also, Q looks like a bigger and more complicated language than K
19:31:24 <wob_jonas> with lots more builtins
19:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah i think the additions mostly fall under
19:32:18 <Phantom_Hoover> 1) bunch of verbs which are predefined k functions
19:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> 2) rudimentary standard library in the .Q namespace
19:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> 3) q-sql syntax for table manipulation
19:35:47 <wob_jonas> perhaps Q's creators felt nostalgy for some old APLs that were full of special cases in all sorts of orthogonal directions, and wanted to recreate that general feelintg
19:37:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i get the impression k has always made heavy use of overloading operators to do completely orthogonal things based on type
19:38:20 <wob_jonas> and either it makes a worse job hiding that complexity than J, or I absorbed how crazy J actually is (despite how the manuals try to imply it's simple and regular) slowly over years, and K presents much of it naked in a manual
19:39:47 <Phantom_Hoover> when i look at j docs i'm struck by the giant zoo of operators
19:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> vs k which only really has the ones above the number keys
19:42:03 <wob_jonas> I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I've seen other programming language evovle towards being more complex over 15 or 20 years, even if they start out as trying to be simple.
19:42:49 <wob_jonas> I find J ugly too, but _not_ because of the zoo of operators you first see, but because of the stuff that's more hidden
19:42:56 <ais523> wob_jonas: most golf languages are stack-based, they tend to be bad at named mutable globals (rather, you just keep changing the same stack slot repeatedly)
19:43:25 <ais523> the more advanced ones often use some sort of SSA, which is good for writing imperative code despite the lack of named globals
19:44:03 <wob_jonas> I mean, the zoo of operators doesn't look too bad if you just think of it as a prelude or core library
19:44:10 <wob_jonas> with strange names
19:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah
19:46:30 <Phantom_Hoover> well k also very much does not have j's love for pointfree style
19:46:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: what is "SSA"?
19:46:47 <Phantom_Hoover> single static assignment
19:46:50 <ais523> single static assignment
19:46:56 <Phantom_Hoover> the wikipedia article is pretty good, worth reading
19:47:04 <ais523> it's imperative-ish but each variable gets a new name each time you assign to it
19:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> also fun fact: go didn't have it for the first few years of its existence despite it being standard practice for compilers for decades
19:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> because go really was written by idiots whose brains are stuck in 1979
19:47:52 <ais523> it makes imperative programs much easier to read about
19:47:54 <ais523> *reason about
19:48:03 <ais523> as you can effectively talk about a particular "version of a variable"
19:48:18 <ais523> but it's a pain to write manually so it's normally only seen in compiler backends
19:50:21 <wob_jonas> I see
19:50:57 <ais523> I guess another way to think about it is that SSA does for data what continuation passing style does for control flow
19:55:03 <wob_jonas> right. I more or less know what that is, because mathematics proofs are usually written with SSA syntax, and I've seen quite a few of those, I just didn't know the name.
19:56:25 <int-e> "proofs are usually written with SSA syntax" - no?
19:56:28 <wob_jonas> I mean, technically you have to be careful with that, to make sure there's no dependence loops, and everything you define in crazy infinite loop form can be translated to proper transfinite induction and transfinite recursion and stuff
19:57:21 <int-e> This really doesn't match my experience. Not even in a formalization context.
20:11:42 <ais523> int-e: well proofs tend not to repeatedly redefine the same term to mean something new
20:13:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, although they can shadow names by using the same letter for an entirely new variable when it doesn't cause a confusion, assign values localized into a foreach-exists arbitrarily nested scope, or define indexed sequences recursively as long as there's no dependence loops to translate an imperative loop without reassigning
20:14:00 <int-e> True, but IME they most of the text is actually about establishing properties and relationships. The SSA is an almost insignificant fragment.
20:15:02 * int-e shrugs
20:15:37 <wob_jonas> int-e: we were probably reading the same general style of mathematics, but viewing it from a different angle
20:16:11 <wob_jonas> have different intuitions of the same thing
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2018-09-11
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03:18:44 <fizzie> fungot: How are you feeling?
03:18:45 <fungot> fizzie: right. like pbx06, so stick with me home to play with, too.
03:20:49 <fizzie> Heh. There was a message for fungot, 1y 3m 16d 9h 30m 20s old.
03:20:49 <fungot> fizzie: because it's a ridiculous amount of money). for years.)
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04:15:56 <Lyka> hi
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04:23:17 * Lyka peers at her friend Sgeo_'s monitor and wonders if he ever got his friend's memory stick out of his laptop
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04:23:45 <Sgeo_> Hi Lyka! I did, a few years ago
04:24:35 <Sgeo_> I used a paperclip
04:25:28 <Sgeo_> March 21, 2015.
04:26:05 <Sgeo_> Got scratched up but reportedly still worked
04:26:14 <Sgeo_> I think that laptop has since died
04:27:13 <Lyka> https://pastebin.com/T6KxW1EG
04:27:55 <Lyka> i think i was the one who stuck it in there by accident
04:28:27 <Lyka> what do the channel make of the language i made?
04:28:41 <Lyka> *what does
04:29:58 <Lyka> echidna
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04:33:18 <Sgeo_> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxa-onC9NxdaWEVfOER3WmU2UTRSYVZEM21pVUtqanhpdVBn
04:33:27 <Sgeo_> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bxa-onC9NxdaZjhCUlJUOGgxcFdqaGpyZzhzYVFad1UtVXFr
04:34:53 <Lyka> i have the pictures, this is open channel
04:35:29 * Sgeo_ isn't too bothered if people see them (if I was I would have private messaged) but maybe I should disable anyway
05:29:18 <Vorpal> Lyka: that language looks decidedly non-esoteric? More like a low level assembly language
05:29:43 <Lyka> oops
05:29:46 <Vorpal> but I lack the context for how it works from just that pastebin
05:30:08 <Vorpal> so if that is really the simplest way to add two numbers together, I'm more interested
05:30:28 <Vorpal> given that you have ADD and SUB instruction in there
05:30:34 <Lyka> digits, not numbers
05:30:51 <Vorpal> huh?
05:31:11 <Lyka> single digit numbers
05:31:21 <Vorpal> base 10?
05:31:29 <Vorpal> what does the ADD and SUB do then?
05:31:31 <Lyka> yes
05:32:34 <Lyka> i am too tired to remember
05:32:39 <Lyka> night
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05:33:13 <Vorpal> oh well
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08:14:03 <deltab> it's reading in two ASCII digits (\x30 to \x39), subtracting 0x30 from each to get the values, adding them, divmod to get tens and units, converting back to ASCII and outputting
08:22:16 <esowiki> [[Reversible]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57550 * Ais523 non-admin * (+43) search aid / bluelink target; redir to [[:Category:Reversible computing]]
08:23:32 <esowiki> [[Counter machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57551 * Ais523 non-admin * (+28) redir to [[Minsky machine]] for now; at some point, we may want the pages to be separate, with this page describing the general concept and that page describing the specific formalization
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08:32:37 <\oren\> I beat Super Mario Land in under half an hour (25 minutes, 20 sec. or so)!
08:35:55 <\oren\> It's my fastest time but isn't fast unough to be a speedrun also it would not count since I'm playing on a Kongfeng GB Boy Colour
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08:51:59 <Taneb> I've never beaten any Mario game other than Galaxy and that took me a long time but I got all 242 stars
08:53:28 <FireFly> I imagine "beat" in the half-an-hour context refers to like, "beating Bowser for the last time" and not "getting all collectibles"
08:53:48 <Taneb> FireFly: only for the unambitious
08:54:02 <Taneb> But yes, it took me a lot less long to see the end credits
08:54:16 <\oren\> FireFly: well this is the original Super Mario Land for Game Boy 1989, so... there aren't any collectables
08:54:21 <FireFly> *nod*
08:54:38 <\oren\> FireFly: and bowser isn't even in it
08:54:40 <FireFly> I've played SML a li'l bit ages ago, I don't really remember it honestly :p
08:54:51 <\oren\> whcih is sorta weird
08:55:27 <\oren\> also mario is rescuing Daisy, which seems like he's cucking his brother, I thought luigi's canon GF was daisy
08:55:56 <Taneb> \oren\: I think that was established after SML, also rescuing is allowed to be platonic
08:56:25 <\oren\> Taneb: not if u fly off in an airplane surrounded by hearts lol
08:57:43 <\oren\> side note, I need to remember to buy more game boy games, and not just play the ones builtin to the console
09:02:56 <\oren\> but srsly this thing is amazing, it's a GBC clone with games built in and most importantly - a BACKLIGHT
09:03:07 <FireFly> hm what thing?
09:04:16 <\oren\> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/GB-Boy-Classic-Color-Handheld-Game-Console-2-7-Game-Player-Backlit-66-Games-A-/223120822883?oid=192365737359
09:04:19 <\oren\> FireFly: ^
09:07:50 <FireFly> o neat
09:09:46 <\oren\> most of the games built in aren't that great but I have been playing a lot of super mario land lately on my commute
09:30:31 <Taneb> I've been messing around with trying to do category theory in Agda
09:30:49 <Taneb> Managed to prove that the category of categories is a category last night
09:31:49 <shachaf> Is it?
09:32:00 <shachaf> I guess you have levels of categories or something.
09:33:37 <Taneb> Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing
09:34:04 <Taneb> It's a bit of a mess but this is what I have currently: https://gist.github.com/Taneb/6bca8c7d5fd47b12db32b3884cab097e
09:37:03 <shachaf> imo define (co)products as adjoints to the diagonal functor hth
09:37:44 <Taneb> shachaf: not a bad suggestion
09:38:05 <Taneb> I haven't defined adjoints yet
09:38:06 <shachaf> imo it is a bad suggestion
09:38:23 <shachaf> but you could maybe reframe it as a good suggestion somehow
09:38:37 <Taneb> Well, "define (co)products as strings" would have been a bad suggestion
09:40:52 <shachaf> Would you call the diagonal functor forgetful?
09:41:48 <shachaf> I guess I would.
09:42:07 <shachaf> Also I'd call fromInteger : Z -> R forgetful.
09:42:58 <Taneb> I'm not sure if I agree
09:43:18 <shachaf> On which one?
09:43:23 <Taneb> The first one
09:43:35 <shachaf> I think I'd call them forgetful for the sameish reason.
09:43:47 <shachaf> An integer is like a real number with a proof that the fractional part is 0.
09:44:18 <Taneb> I don't have a clear intuition for forgetful functors
09:44:41 <shachaf> And a thing in C is like a thing in C*C with a proof that the two things are the same thing.
09:45:08 <shachaf> Good job "forgetful" doesn't mean anything
09:45:32 <shachaf> (am i britishing)
09:45:41 <shachaf> Actually, I think "forgetful" means a right adjoint or something.
09:46:14 <Taneb> I should definitely define adjoints
09:46:23 <shachaf> Adjunctions are the best.
09:46:25 <Taneb> They seem to come up everywhere
09:47:00 <shachaf> I tried to talk to a bunch of people about adjoints this past week but it didn't work?
09:50:14 <Taneb> Some people have no taste
09:50:32 <shachaf> Well, some of them were interested but then I needed to explain categories and things
09:51:14 <shachaf> I'm going to sleep but you should find some good adjunctions for me for when I wake up.
09:51:33 <Taneb> I'm afraid I'm at work and may still be at work when you wake up
09:51:41 <shachaf> What are the good old adjunctions?
09:51:45 <shachaf> * Free/cofree things
09:51:48 <shachaf> * Limits/colimits
09:51:58 <shachaf> Exponentials and tensors and things
09:52:12 <shachaf> (-> r) -| (-> r)
09:52:23 <shachaf> Cofree comonads? Do I know any other good cofree things?
09:52:30 <shachaf> (I guess Coyoneda is a cofree functor.)
09:53:02 <shachaf> What else? I'm missing a lot here.
09:54:17 <Taneb> Abelianization is a left adjoint of the inclusion functor Ab -> Grp
09:54:34 <shachaf> That one's definitely forgetful.
09:54:42 <Taneb> Yeah
09:54:53 <shachaf> I'd call that the free abelian group on a group.
09:55:59 <shachaf> Anyway, uh, there are a million adjunctions I'm not thinking of here.
09:57:02 <Taneb> There's the currying adjunction
09:57:30 <shachaf> That's exponentials.
09:58:10 <Taneb> Yeah
09:58:44 <shachaf> Look, I need to sleep
09:59:25 <shachaf> I want 4 adjunctions on my desk by end of day.
09:59:48 <shachaf> Oh, there's the Eilenberg-Moore and Kleisli adjunctions for a monad, of course.
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10:25:01 <int-e> Ah adjunction, my mortal enemy.
10:25:14 <Taneb> int-e: elaborate please
10:25:21 <int-e> That's where I gave up when trying to get into category theory.
10:32:06 <int-e> Taneb: So basically it's a marker stone between abstraction and nonsense for me.
10:33:03 <Taneb> int-e: a big part of why I'm trying to do this in Agda is to concretize the nonsense
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10:43:20 <esowiki> [[Flow of Holes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57552 * Ais523 non-admin * (+15758) new language; I've been planning this for a while, but wanted examples, an interpreter, pictures, etc. and to post the whole thing at once; however, that's delaying it too much, so just post a spec for now
10:43:50 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57553&oldid=57517 * Ais523 non-admin * (+20) /* F */ +[[Flow of Holes]]
10:44:14 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57554&oldid=57036 * Ais523 non-admin * (+19) +[[Flow of Holes]], even though it's somewhat unfinished
11:01:03 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57555&oldid=57225 * Ais523 non-admin * (+1) grammar
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12:33:50 <esowiki> [[User:Sinthorion/drafts/Unsafe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57556 * Sinthorion * (+3731) Created page with "'''Unsafe''' is a programming language designed with two main considerations: * ''extremely'' lightweight runtime (no data types, no GC, not even a proper stack...) * ''extrem..."
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14:11:32 <wob_jonas> oh! I think this is the language ais523 mentioned earlier that he was trying to design
14:11:36 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Flow_of_Holes
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14:30:57 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57557&oldid=57401 * Sinthorion * (+329) prime factor numbers
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16:20:32 <wob_jonas> OH!
16:20:58 <\oren\> ffee - coffee
16:25:16 <\oren\> `? coffee
16:25:17 <HackEso> Coffee is a strange brew. Enticing wisps of vapour catch the eye, the soul ensnared into dark vortices of flavour. Some minds mix in milk and sugar to counteract coffee's black magic.
16:25:35 <\oren\> `? ffee
16:25:36 <HackEso> ffee? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:25:59 <\oren\> wait why is there a zwsp in that
16:26:18 <\oren\> `unicode
16:26:19 <HackEso> No output.
16:26:26 <\oren\> `unicode °​_
16:26:27 <HackEso> U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN \ UTF-8: c2 b0 UTF-16BE: 00b0 Decimal: &#176; \ ° \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ET (European Number Terminator) \ \ U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE \ UTF-8: e2 80 8b UTF-16BE: 200b Decimal: &#8203; \ ​ \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+005F LOW LINE \ UTF-8: 5f UTF-16BE: 005f Decimal: &#95; \ _ \ Category: Pc (Punctuation, Connector) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
16:32:32 <\oren\> ok this is somewhat bizarre
16:33:00 <\oren\> wob_jonas: irssi sometimes displays zwsp with a width of 1, sometimes with 0
16:34:55 <\oren\> even crazier, it depends on which way I tab through my channels. tabbing leftward, it displays zwsp with a width of 1 thus showing up with the glyph my font has for it. tabbing rightward, the opposite happens!
16:36:43 <\oren\> unicode needs to take more effort defining how their standard works in a fixed-width environment
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17:38:58 <shachaf> int-e: What about adjunctions in Haskell? Do you accept those?
17:39:35 <int-e> no
17:41:28 <shachaf> Do you know how to make State out of (e,) -| (e->)? It's p. good.
17:42:02 <int-e> please stop pretending that abstract nonsense makes sense :P
17:42:14 <shachaf> This is concrete nonsense!
17:42:20 <shachaf> Abstract sense?
17:42:29 <int-e> `? category theory
17:42:30 <HackEso> In the theory of categories, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
17:42:33 <int-e> hmm
17:42:49 <int-e> anyway, "abstract nonsense" is a common term for "category theory" :P
17:42:57 <esowiki> [[User:Sinthorion/drafts/Unsafe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57558&oldid=57556 * Sinthorion * (+4362)
17:43:04 <shachaf> For a specific flavor of category theory
17:43:49 <shachaf> Look, the point is, you have two functions: eps :: (e, e -> a) -> a, and eta :: a -> (e -> (e, a))
17:46:29 <shachaf> With the laws eps . fmap eta = id and fmap eps . eta = id
17:46:45 <shachaf> I'll stop saying things because this is a bit rude.
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17:53:04 <deltab> \oren\: it's an enticing zwisp
17:53:52 <wob_jonas> \oren\: so the same instances of zwsp in the same lines display differently depending on the previous tab? does it persist if after switching the tab you press control-L to redraw the screen?
17:54:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\: something like this could happen if the terminal and whatever console-driver library (or libc) your irssi uses has different idea about the width of that character
17:55:20 <wob_jonas> \oren\: is at least your terminal taking utf-8 encoding and does irssi know that correctly?
17:57:10 <wob_jonas> \oren\: perhaps it could also happen if you're using an old font that doesn't have the right glyph for the zwsp character
17:59:48 <wob_jonas> \oren\: does it also happen with the U+FEFF character used instead of the U+200B ?
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18:37:55 <\oren\> wob_jonas: I experimented a bit. basically it depends on tmux, not irssi per se. tmux redraws the screen differently depending on whether it has to erase the line or not
18:38:19 <wob_jonas> \oren\: hmm.
18:38:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: still, some of the comments apply. does it happen if you have irssi redraw the screen and then have tmux redraw the screen?
18:38:54 <wob_jonas> does it happen with U+FEFF?
18:39:04 <wob_jonas> is some of the software you're using very old versions?
18:39:24 <wob_jonas> and check for the font
18:39:44 <\oren\> I'm using iterm2, so the terminal is new. the font is my own font which provides a visible character for zwsp
18:40:18 <\oren\> (which normally is never drawn)
18:40:23 <wob_jonas> \oren\: how about tmux, irssi, and the libc under both?
18:40:41 <\oren\> irssi is a very old version
18:40:42 <wob_jonas> oh right... you use your own font. so at least that one is fine
18:42:25 <wob_jonas> I should try to hear more instrumental synth pop music during work. I'm not familiar enough with the genre because it wasn't played enough on the pop radio stations I listened to, but I think there are a lot of songs I'd enjoy and I should get to know the genre more.
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18:43:15 <\oren\> I don't understand why so many packages on modern ubuntu are extremely old versions
18:43:23 <\oren\> like nano for instance
18:45:57 <wob_jonas> \oren\: nobody likes to do the chore of packaging new versions of sotware
18:48:00 <int-e> `? sotware
18:48:01 <HackEso> sotware? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:51:01 <wob_jonas> um
18:51:05 <wob_jonas> software obviously
18:51:10 <wob_jonas> but yeah
18:52:39 <int-e> (Sotware is the result of drunk coding. See also: Microsot; Ballmer Peak.)
18:56:31 <\oren\> oh, the newest LTS version finally updated nano to a version above 2.7
18:57:08 <\oren\> (2.7 added the all-important ability to display line numbers!)
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19:02:02 <int-e> . o O ( "nano" is a bilingual name deriving from Austrian "na" (i.e., no) and English "no" (i.e., no). )
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20:10:12 <esowiki> [[User:Sinthorion/drafts/Unsafe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57559&oldid=57558 * Sinthorion * (-14) /* Runtime and Memory */
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23:06:03 <esowiki> [[Minsky machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57560&oldid=45819 * B jonas * (+140) mention Aho, Ullman book
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23:18:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57561&oldid=56866 * B jonas * (+87) /* Year of creation */
23:21:35 <esowiki> [[PL/MIX]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57562&oldid=54835 * B jonas * (+306) year, unimplemented
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23:46:39 <Sgeo_> Is there a demoscene for MMIX? There should be
2018-09-12
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05:16:36 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57563&oldid=57266 * Saka * (+257)
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07:28:02 <esowiki> [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57564&oldid=57555 * Ais523 * (+202) mention that 144 is the smallest known TC starting population
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09:16:18 <wob_jonas> `? instance
09:16:20 <HackEso> instance? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:16:26 <wob_jonas> "instance" is among my favourite words
09:19:37 <wob_jonas> Sgeo_: with what operating system and libraries presumed? linux? NNIX? demoscenes typically want to give interesting output, such as nice videos and sounds, so just "MMIX" isn't enough to specify what you can access, just like "486 with 16M RAM" or "6502 with 64K RAM" aren't enough either.
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10:12:13 <int-e> shachaf: Sorry for spoiling your teaching moment... I have too many other things on my mind, I'm afraid. So while I'm prepare to reminisce about the fact that adjunctions foiled me (15 years ago, give or take), I'm not really prepared to learn about them now.
10:15:12 <shachaf> int-e: It wasn't so much a teaching moment as me rambling about a thing incoherently to an audience that already expressed disinterest.
10:15:59 <int-e> so we both felt bad about that... great. :/
10:17:28 <shachaf> !
10:17:34 <shachaf> don't feel bad about it twh
10:19:58 <int-e> Note the past tense. Feeling better now :P
10:20:02 <int-e> Or :)
10:20:51 <shachaf> Also I'd bet a third party that adjunctions wouldn't foil you if you spent a small time on them
10:21:08 <int-e> (Small realization: ":P" is easier to type than ":)"...)
10:21:23 <shachaf> i was going to say a disinterested party but then i realized that wouldn't rule you out
10:22:15 <shachaf> I feel like I should do more actual betting to get better at estimating odds.
10:22:29 <int-e> Yes, indifference is a strong factor here.
10:23:21 <int-e> Anyway, back to work...
10:23:24 <shachaf> Maybe I should bet you that you won't figure it out.
10:23:44 <int-e> `quote indifference
10:23:45 <HackEso> 1320) <shachaf> int-e does not like this [...] <int-e> shachaf: I experience heightened levels of indifference :P <shachaf> Higher than your usual? <int-e> who cares?
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10:45:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57565&oldid=56187 * B jonas * (+799) /* Game of Life theorem subtleties */ new section
10:46:08 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57566&oldid=57565 * B jonas * (+119) /* Game of Life theorem subtleties */
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12:36:35 <esowiki> [[BFC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57567 * Sinthorion * (+2811) Created page with "BFC or Brainfuck Compressed is a low level optimisation of Brainfuck code, aiming at reducing the code length of Brainfuck code while making it faster to run on a BFC interpre..."
12:37:06 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57568&oldid=57567 * Sinthorion * (+1)
12:38:12 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57569&oldid=57568 * Sinthorion * (+117)
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17:25:04 <shachaf> `olist 1140
17:25:05 <HackEso> olist 1140: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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17:46:04 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57570&oldid=57566 * Ais523 * (+1039) /* Game of Life theorem subtleties */ r to b_jonas
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19:46:39 <esowiki> [[Turing (Joshop)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57571&oldid=55856 * Joshop * (-901) Blanked the page
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19:54:53 <esowiki> [[Cappuccino]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57572 * Joshop * (+368) Created page with "== Description == Cappuccino is like Java, but different. In fact, it is almost identical to Java,but with some key differences. For example, if you try to access a class that..."
20:05:51 <esowiki> [[Cappuccino]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57573&oldid=57572 * Joshop * (+398)
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21:11:47 <ais523> @messages?
21:11:47 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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22:05:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: "There's a conceptual difference between, say, the :*()^a! subset of Underload and the :()^ subset of Underload; the former lets you build "arbitrary Underload circuits", the latter doesn't and yet it's still TC. The "fixed maximum population count" version of Life is an example of the latter, whereas most actual effort in Life programming
22:05:48 <wob_jonas> has concentrated on the former." =>
22:06:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: did your comment get cut off? that's just a quote of me, plus =>
22:07:07 <wob_jonas> I don't understand by what you mean by arbitrary circuits in the Life case. It's sometimes not even easy to tell what constructs you can get as a rectangular subsection of a one-step evolution of any pattern.
22:07:37 <wob_jonas> (not cut off. I broke it deliberately there.)
22:07:43 <wob_jonas> also, guess what:
22:08:02 <ais523> the normal standard is "anything that can be constructed via colliding gliders", which turns out to be almost everything
22:08:36 <wob_jonas> I'm proud, because the IRC timing sword cuts both ways: schmorp just told me something close to "I have to leave now because I'm tired, I only stayed up because you were in [the irc channel]"
22:09:11 <shachaf> What's the closest thing to a cellular automaton that could be made relativistic?
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22:11:08 <ais523> shachaf: are you talking about Game of Life or in general?
22:11:18 <wob_jonas> shachaf: special relativistic (Lorentz) or general relativistic (Minkowski/Riemann)?
22:11:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you probably couldn't put either on a simple grid
22:11:40 <wob_jonas> you'd have to use something more tricky
22:13:04 <shachaf> ais523: Well, I don't think relativistic effects could happen in Game of Life.
22:13:23 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Special relativistic would be enough (both would be interesting)
22:13:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't really understand that
22:14:27 <ais523> there's this language I've been thinking about for ages in which relativity seems to become a natural part of the mechanics…
22:14:53 <ais523> it's actually got me thinking about the "is the universe a simulation" concept; if it /is/, you'd expect something like relativity to exist, as otherwise the simulation would be hard to parallelise
22:16:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: what? no. you'd only expect a speed of light (maximal speed) to exist. you wouldn't expect Lorentz-invariance because you wouldn't expect Gallilei invariance in the low speed region in first place.
22:17:01 <shachaf> ais523: You'd expect locality, but why relativity?
22:17:45 <ais523> wob_jonas: shachaf: basically because you want there to be a maximum rate at which values can change, so that you know when transitions will happen; if you have a maximum velocity relative to a fixed reference, the sum or difference of two velocities can exceed that
22:17:52 <ais523> somehow you want a calculation of the form c + c = c
22:18:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think a maximal speed like in our universe is useful for the anthropic principle too, because it means people can't travel interstellar distances quickly, so anything fast-spreading like an explosion or a civilization won't be able to form a virus that eats everything else in the universe.
22:18:13 <shachaf> Well, something like the game of life has a speed of light and doesn't even have a primitive notion of velocity.
22:18:40 <wob_jonas> But I don't see why you'd expect Gallilei invariance for a simulation or for the anthropic principle. I don't understand why it would help.
22:19:13 <ais523> shachaf: it's also inherently slow, I suspect; it'd be interesting to see how fast Life computers can calculate in computational class terms
22:19:21 <ais523> err, complexity class terms
22:19:45 <shachaf> Is relativity compatible with a Hashlife-style algorithm in a nice way?
22:19:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: Game of Life, for example, has a fixed reference frame. It's not as nice as our universe, which has gravity that keeps people and their nuclear bombs at least bound onto the surface of big iron balls, so they can't just expand everywhere like some Life patterns do.
22:20:15 <shachaf> Game of life also doesn't have conservation of energy (?)
22:20:20 <shachaf> What is energy? I don't even know, man.
22:20:33 <ais523> shachaf: game of life has a maximum movement speed that's different from c
22:20:43 <ais523> e.g. a pattern can't move faster than c/2 orthogonally or c/4 diagonally forever
22:20:47 <shachaf> But the maximum information transmission speed is c
22:20:48 <ais523> there's a conservation rule that implies that
22:20:55 <shachaf> I mean c is achievable
22:20:55 <wob_jonas> So while Life has a fixed reference frame, I don't expect it to evolve nice small regions separated by long hard to cross empty space so that a supernova or civilization in one place can't destroy too big a region.
22:21:14 <ais523> yes, c's achievable for information, but you then have to spend time slowly repairing the communication medium you used
22:21:24 <wob_jonas> I mean, compared to us, a supernova explosion still is huge and destructive, but compared to a galaxy, it doesn't matter, and the universe is much bigger than that,
22:21:39 <ais523> communication that fast is necessarily destructive
22:21:51 <wob_jonas> it has galaxies separated by huge empty spaces, and even clusters of galaxies separated by even larger mostly empty spaces.
22:21:58 <wob_jonas> all because of gravity
22:23:00 <ais523> one problem with Life is that it seems inherently hard/impossible to make a self-repairing machine
22:23:32 <shachaf> Physics seems to have a primitive notion of velocity as well as position (?)
22:23:34 <wob_jonas> the Hubble expansion also helps, because with Gallilei/Lorentz-invariance, normally you'd expect various galaxies having very huge speed compared to each other, since a huge speed doesn't internally change them, so they'd get close randomly, whereas with a Hubble expansion, they get close much less often
22:23:40 <shachaf> Which is different from any cellular automaton I know.
22:23:42 <ais523> you can make machines that are protected against very specific sorts of disturbance (e.g. a glider on a particular path), but I don't think it's possible in general to make something that can determine that part of it has been damaged, clear that space, and recreate the damaged component
22:23:46 <wob_jonas> So it seems like the relativity is just making this harder.
22:23:47 <ais523> because clearing the space is too hard
22:23:56 <ais523> e.g. if you shoot gliders at it you might just end up making a crystal
22:25:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, and I'm not saying that this physics is bad, only that I don't understand why this happens to be a good design, and why a simulation or the anthropic principle would imply such a design
22:25:42 <wob_jonas> there are probably some partial explanations for why certain other designs wouldn't work as well
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22:26:43 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah
22:26:59 <ais523> actually, let me express it this way: suppose that position isn't the only thing that has a "speed of light"
22:27:05 <ais523> suppose /every/ number in your system has a maximum rate at which it can change
22:27:24 <ais523> then you end up with something like relativity because you need to be able to handle changes to the results of formulas, in addition to the variables they use
22:27:50 <shachaf> Why does that give you something like relativity?
22:28:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't understand why you'd end up relativity that just for that. Why couldn't you end up with a fixed reference frame with objects generally moving with slow speed, a fixed upper limit on speed, and objects generally accelerating slowly?
22:28:29 <ais523> shachaf: say 1 is the largest number that exists
22:28:36 <ais523> then addition has to be defined in a way that lets you do 1+1
22:29:24 <ais523> wob_jonas: suppose you have multiple forces acting on the same object
22:29:40 <ais523> in order to avoid going over the maximum acceleration you need to cap the sum somehow
22:30:01 <ais523> you can do it with saturating caps, but relativistic addition seems neater in a way
22:30:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: the accelerations could add up with a v0+v1-v0v1 rule
22:30:17 <wob_jonas> no sorry
22:30:22 <wob_jonas> the speed could add up that way
22:30:34 <wob_jonas> sort of like in our universe
22:30:44 <wob_jonas> but you only have one reference frame where that works
22:30:54 <wob_jonas> it doesn't work after anything like a gallilei transformation
22:31:04 <wob_jonas> or would that still end up with special relativity? hmm
22:31:16 <wob_jonas> yeah no, that would be special relativity
22:31:16 <ais523> right, I don't think you necessarily get /all/ the rules of relativity this way; you just need something that has similar mathematical consequences to it
22:31:17 <wob_jonas> hmm
22:32:41 <ais523> I guess what I mean is "you can't deduce the rules of relativity this way, just the existence of relativity"
22:33:15 <wob_jonas> dunno, I'll think about that
22:34:29 <wob_jonas> the even crazier part is why we have quantum mechanics of course
22:35:10 <shachaf> Quantum mechanics doesn't violate locality, at least.
22:36:07 <ais523> wait, is quantum mechanics simply a real-life implementation of nondeterminism?
22:36:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: no
22:36:17 <ais523> the declarative languages concept, I mean?
22:36:24 <shachaf> It's a pretty peculiar kind of nondeterminism.
22:36:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think it's just that
22:36:32 <ais523> right, because different threads can interfere
22:38:06 <wob_jonas> quantum mechanics is strange, you can't really compare it to anything you've seen before quantum mechanics. it implies some things, like randomness and stuff, but it's not JUST that.
22:38:24 <shachaf> I don't think you need any randomness for quantum mechanics?
22:38:39 <shachaf> I mean, if you're simulating it.
22:39:04 <ais523> right, it only looks random from the "inside", picking a particular world
22:39:12 <shachaf> Right.
22:39:45 <ais523> interference of probabilities between worlds is weird, but it isn't that much weirder than, say, the cut operator in Prolog
22:39:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's... complicated. you can say you don't need randomness to simulate it in the sense that you don't need randomness to simulate classical randomness if you want to compute the probability distribution in the end. in that sense, you also don't need randomness to simulate quantum mechanics. but then you have a choose a sample in the end, o
22:39:52 <wob_jonas> nly in case of quantum mechanics, it's not clear what the "in the end" part means.
22:40:09 <shachaf> Why does there need to be an end?
22:41:20 <wob_jonas> shachaf: because you can't just choose a sample earlier. not even necessarily reduce the amount of samples. you have to keep the whole probability distributions for the whole time. but then when does a sample get chosen? is it chosen once for the whole universe, sort of after or outside the whole thing?\
22:41:43 <shachaf> Why do you need to choose a sample at all?
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22:43:20 <wob_jonas> shachaf: so that eventually there's only one outcome we see
22:43:25 <wob_jonas> of everything
22:43:30 <shachaf> Sure, if you're in the simulation like we are.
22:43:54 <shachaf> But if you're simulating it it all seems deterministic.
22:43:58 <shachaf> It seems that if you pick a sample at any point, you need to violate locality and do it globally. Right?
22:43:58 <wob_jonas> how does "simulation" change anything here?
22:44:13 <wob_jonas> ais523 was arguing for a "simulation" for how to make it efficiently parallelizable
22:44:45 <shachaf> I'm confused by who "we" is who's seeing the outcome.
22:44:49 <shachaf> Someone inside the system or outside?
22:44:53 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, that's the whole problem
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22:46:49 <shachaf> For someone inside the system making an observation, you don't need to sample, you just get a superposition or whatever it is of multiple possible observations. Right?
22:47:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes
22:47:19 <shachaf> For someone outside the system making an observation, you need to violate locality, which is scow.
22:47:37 <shachaf> It seems like wanting there to be just a single sample is an inside-the-system view of things. From the outside why would you want it?
22:48:28 <ais523> well, if you want to keep the entire superposition for everything, you'll need a huge amount of memory
22:48:41 <shachaf> Right.
22:48:55 <shachaf> Maybe collapse is a form of stop-the-world GC.
22:49:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's not really my problem though
22:49:04 <ais523> so it makes sense that there'd be some sort of cut/prune operation going on
22:49:13 <ais523> that means that some samples will have a higher status than others
22:49:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but there are almost certainly no cut/prune operations, at least not observable ones.
22:50:43 <ais523> well, "state collapse due to observation" may be one, in which case it might be observable by definition!
22:50:48 <ais523> they don't seem to use the same rules as those in Prolog though
22:51:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but we suspect there's no mandatory collapses, or at least some people think there aren't any, although we aren't quite sure, because some people like Gil Kalai think there are
22:52:29 <wob_jonas> we can't prove it either way yet, we'll need a technically hard experiment to prove that there are no mandatory collapses, or some crazy new mathematics to prove that there are mandatory collapses
22:53:10 <wob_jonas> unless some of what we strongly believe is incorrect of course
22:53:19 <wob_jonas> which would be even more surprising than any of the other two
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22:55:18 <ais523> not really, I'd be very surprised if we didn't have at least one really major misconception about physics
22:55:53 <shachaf> I mean, our theories of physics are p. fundamentally incompatible with each other, aren't they?
22:56:00 <shachaf> I can't imagine a way that we wouldn't have one.
22:56:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, but not in the part that implies these
22:56:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: we probably still have misconceptions about modern particle physics, we don't understand how it works
22:56:23 <wob_jonas> but not about the basic quantum mechanics rules
22:56:44 <wob_jonas> or about the speed limit and lorentz-invariance
22:56:54 <wob_jonas> and some of the other conservation laws
22:57:57 <ais523> you are way too confident :-D
22:58:20 <ais523> 100 years ago few people would have had doubts about Newtonian gravity
22:58:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm just saying, I'm more confident in that than whether the other questions
22:58:37 <shachaf> 120 years ago maybe
22:58:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: there's still no problem with newtonian gravity
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23:30:22 <\oren\> I think our math is probably basically right but our reasoning is probably way off. Just like keplers laws
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2018-09-13
00:06:43 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
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00:14:42 <wob_jonas> M:tG un-rules question. I Ctyoshape my Adorable Kitten into a Myr Welder, then tap for the imprint ability exiling a ________, then use its newly gained ability to change its name to Firemaw Kavu.
00:14:47 <wob_jonas> My next turn, the Adorable Kitten no longer have any of its fancy new abilities, but its name remains Firemaw Kavu and it regains the Host supertype. I then augment that Host with a Serpentine, then does the augmented permanent's name become the same as that of an ordinary Serpentine Kavu, for the purpose of Sever the Bloodline?
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01:42:20 <Sgeo_> Could something like Core Wars be done on C64... somehow? Load two programs that "fight" each other, somehow?
01:42:26 <Sgeo_> Not sure how to define victory
01:43:04 <Sgeo_> Oh hmm the OS doesn't automatically provide multitasking. C64 can preemptively multitask, but that requires software to set up, hmm
01:43:12 <ais523> it probably isn't multithreaded enough
01:43:20 <ais523> the programs would just attack the scheduler to get more time
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05:03:32 <wob_jonas> It's sort of a pity that the SYSV function memset got standardized in ANSI C89 and spread by the second edition K&R book rather than the BSD function bzero. The extra parameter is almost never used and just adds a potential to confuse the order of the last two parameters.
05:04:54 <shachaf> Maybe C ought to have keyword arguments.
05:05:35 <shachaf> So I was thinking about what it would take for a vaguely C-like (or C++-like?) language to have functions that only take a single struct/tuple argument.
05:05:45 <shachaf> Is there any language that does that well?
05:08:41 <wob_jonas> SGeo_: I don't think the 6502 is a good idea for any preemptive multitasking application. 6502 code generally uses the low 512 bytes of memory space because of special addressing modes give conciseness of code for speed and speed, plus also must use self-modifying instructions for some things. Unless you're thinking of a very low memory context lik
05:08:41 <wob_jonas> e the ATARI 2600 with the 128 byte of RAM and at most 2K or 4K ROM
05:11:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you count languages that also have currying, like standard ML or Haskell?
05:13:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: do you count the small underlying core language for Wikiplia, which has ordinary multi-argument function calls, but on the function definition side it only has a variadic lambda builtin, which gets all the arguments on a single list, and you have to unpack arguments from that list with a strange deconsing function that can distinguish betw
05:13:38 <wob_jonas> een all approx. ten builtin datatypes but you can omit the last arms and the first arm is for decoding a cons
05:14:25 <Sgeo_> o.O at Atari 2600
05:14:34 <Sgeo_> I've heard of it, didn't realize there was that little RAM
05:15:24 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I don't really count currying, because I'm imagining something roughly on the level of C with no automatic closures everywhere and so on.
05:15:33 <wob_jonas> SGeo_: it also has a less powerful variant of 6502 with the same integrated core but a smaller wiring around it so it only has 12 bits of address space
05:15:43 <shachaf> And I don't think I count that either.
05:15:51 <shachaf> I want, y'know, a calling convention for structs.
05:16:29 <shachaf> Which C already has. At least on the amd64 System V ABI a struct will get unpacked into registers and so on, though I think it's a little different from the calling convention for arguments.
05:16:57 <Sgeo_> "and no video frame buffer at all. The programmer must prepare each line of video output one at a time as it is being sent to the television."
05:17:10 <wob_jonas> shachaf: in C it wouldn't historically had made sense, because it would have been inefficient, but sure, you could imagine some language that does that, and there probably is one out there, I just don't know a good example
05:17:18 <shachaf> Why wouldn't it have made sense in C?
05:17:19 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think Standard M
05:17:29 <wob_jonas> ignore last line
05:17:34 <shachaf> I mean, other than lack of tuples or type inference or something, if you'd need that.
05:17:38 <Sgeo_> C64 sounds like a huge luxury in comparison... although could you get arbitrary colors in arbitrary pixels on Atari 2600?
05:17:41 <shachaf> I'm trying to figure out what you'd need.
05:17:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: because it was compiled on small compilers, and the API for passing separate arguments is just more efficient than the API for passing a struct in most calling conventions
05:18:19 <shachaf> OK, it wouldn't have made sense quite for C itself, but for a language similar to C.
05:18:31 <wob_jonas> except on modern machines in certain cases for very small structs
05:18:48 <shachaf> Where the calling convention for structs is defined the way it's defined for C functions.
05:19:04 <wob_jonas> but even then the standard calling convention often misses, so you have to rely on optimization if you want passing structs that aren't just trivial wrappers for a single element efficiently
05:19:44 <Sgeo_> Also, 128 bytes... I guess machine code is run from ROM, instead of being stored in RAM?
05:19:46 <shachaf> Obviously this wouldn't work in C-as-it-is because things are defined differently.
05:19:53 <wob_jonas> for trivial wrappers for a single element, the calling conventions that are new enough to have come after decent optimizing compilers like the x86_64 one do the Right Thing generally, so you don't lose anything over passing its single element
05:19:56 <shachaf> I'm wondering about something similar to C.
05:20:08 <wob_jonas> but for what you want, you need to pass structs bigger than a single element
05:21:18 <wob_jonas> there's probably an example I'm missing, like some of those functional language models, but I gtg now, sorry
05:22:14 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think a low-level functional language is more likely to use that
05:22:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: there was, I think a low-level pointfree language like that
05:22:26 <shachaf> You keep answering questions that are vaguely similar to but also completely different from what I'm asking, it seems like.
05:22:32 <wob_jonas> I'll find it later
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05:22:44 <shachaf> Maybe it means I'm asking the question badly.
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06:49:58 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I understand you want a low-level C-like language like that, but a non-esoteric one that's used for real world programming might not exist, because in older compilers, it could be hard to avoid the penalty
06:49:58 <wob_jonas> of creating and decomposing the tuple (although it could perhaps be avoided if you wrote the compiler just right), and in newer compilers, it would not make sense the forego the easy syntactic convenience of multi-argument functions.
06:51:26 <shachaf> Why is there easy syntactic convenience?
06:51:32 <wob_jonas> that said, I should look up which language it was that was mostly used on paper, not in a computer implementation, but is an old language that's not deliberately esoteric, and is a pointfree lambdaless functional language that enocourages or perhaps even forces you to use tuples to pass multiple args
06:52:00 <shachaf> If the tuple syntax is (a,b,c) and the application syntax was juxtaposition, then you could write f(a,b,c), just like in C
06:52:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: hmm.
06:54:21 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you need conditionals, but perhaps you could have a built-in ifelse that always takes three arguments (you can't use lazy evaluation if you want this C-like, and you probably can't use lambdas passed to an ifelse either because that is hard to make C-like and probably impossible to avoid extra parenthesis)
06:54:40 <wob_jonas> or.... hmm
06:54:50 <wob_jonas> maybe a one-variable lambda could work too?
06:55:04 <wob_jonas> still...
06:55:26 <wob_jonas> shachaf: would you have patterns in the function head like in haskell/ml/prolog to decompose the tuple easily?
06:56:08 <shachaf> if isn't a function in C, I don't see why it would be one here.
06:58:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, that could work. though you'd also probably need something like local variables and possibly sequencing, or something to replace them
07:09:20 <wob_jonas> darn, I'm sure there's such a language. and it's even somewhat similar to the much newer David Madore's original version of amycus in some ways.
07:10:00 <shachaf> Anyway I was wondering how such a thing would work, especially when you add more details.
07:10:28 <shachaf> For example you probably want to support keyword arguments, which are the same as named struct/tuple members.
07:10:46 <shachaf> You maybe want to support varargs of some sort?
07:10:55 <shachaf> And maybe default arguments though I'm not sold on those.
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07:12:17 <shachaf> If you have struct-style keyword arguments, presumably the function definition site defines a struct and then the call site creates it.
07:12:46 <shachaf> But there are various tricky questions I think?
07:12:59 <shachaf> It seems like on the whole it could still be simpler than C, though.
07:13:13 <wob_jonas> The basic idea is that the main primitives are what liftM, liftM2, liftM3, liftM4, liftM5 etc do on the (->) instance, but they go up to arbitrary number of arguments, plus functions taking the nth argument of a tuple and composing a tuple, and probably some conditionals too
07:13:57 <wob_jonas> the liftM, liftM2, liftM3, ... base is sort of true for both that language I'm looking for and Madore's original Amycus
07:14:38 <wob_jonas> only in both, instead of curried functions, they work of single-argument functions that always get a tuple input
07:15:32 <wob_jonas> but in David's original Amycus, IIRC you only get to call functions with tuples (I'm lazy to look up the rules now), whereas in that other language, you call them directly with one argument, and have to make the tuple yourself
07:16:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf: anyway, I think passing a tuple instead of using curry is used as a programming style in standard ML because for older compilers it was easier to optimize
07:16:55 <shachaf> I'd prefer something that doesn't rely on the optimizer.
07:17:34 <shachaf> Currying is very complicated, in principle you have to create closures and things only to consume them immediately, and then the optimizer turns it back into the tuple code which you could have written anyway.
07:18:03 <shachaf> And if you do apply only some of the arguments, then the closure has to be created, which is probably a hidden memory allocation?
07:18:10 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, now I'm just trying to find that pointfree language for myself, even without your question
07:19:33 <wob_jonas> even the standard library prelude of standard ML has some functions that use that convention
07:19:51 <wob_jonas> eg. foldl and foldr both take a callback that takes a 2-tuple
07:20:48 <wob_jonas> but for some other things it uses currying: foldl and foldr itself takes the callback, the initial value, and the list as three curried arguments
07:21:02 <wob_jonas> the other functions are also similarly inconsistent
07:22:38 <wob_jonas> mind you, there are only a few functions in the prelude where that makes a difference: the rest either have infix syntax so you rarely see the tuple explicitly written, or take only one argument and no callback with multiple arguments, so neither currying nor tuples come up
07:29:19 <wob_jonas> wtf? how is there no mention of "pointfree" anywhere on the wiki, even though we have articles for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B,_C,_K,_W_system
07:30:41 <wob_jonas> oh, I must have mistyped the word
07:30:44 <wob_jonas> there is
07:31:09 <wob_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-free
07:33:10 <shachaf> "the wiki" is Wikipedia now?
07:33:28 <wob_jonas> ah no sorry
07:33:37 <wob_jonas> I'm searching the wrong thing now
07:33:49 <wob_jonas> darn
07:33:58 <wob_jonas> and I didn't notice at first beacuse they're both white
07:34:21 <shachaf> fizzie: petition to make esolangs.org lime green
07:34:28 <wob_jonas> have the same style
07:34:37 <wob_jonas> I mean same visual style theme
07:34:52 <wob_jonas> in that case the orignal statements stands, there's no match for pointfree on the wiki
07:35:23 <wob_jonas> apparently I got there from esowiki by an external link
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07:36:35 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57574&oldid=45435 * B jonas * (+34) /* External resources */
07:37:13 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57575&oldid=57574 * B jonas * (+67) /* Alternative Primitives */
07:40:36 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57576&oldid=57575 * B jonas * (+65) BCKW
07:42:20 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57577&oldid=57576 * B jonas * (+6) /* Non-primitives */
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07:46:03 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57578&oldid=57577 * B jonas * (+71) /* External resources */
07:49:41 <wob_jonas> Hmm, the u-szeged kk got a completely different homepage and catalog now, with some of the old links broken, specifically the ones to the catalog, although at least http://ww2.bibl.u-szeged.hu/ redirects
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08:03:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57579&oldid=8031 * B jonas * (+299)
08:03:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57580&oldid=57579 * B jonas * (+120) /* Keywords */
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08:26:26 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57581 * B jonas * (+1813) create article
08:47:06 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57582&oldid=57578 * B jonas * (+707) expand BCKI, point to new pointfree article
09:05:23 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57583&oldid=57582 * B jonas * (+372) more BCKW vs SKI
09:05:44 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57584&oldid=57583 * B jonas * (-1) /* BCKW calculus */
09:08:29 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57585&oldid=57584 * B jonas * (-8) /* See also */
09:09:20 <esowiki> [[Combinatory logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57586&oldid=57585 * B jonas * (+15) /* See also */
09:11:00 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57587&oldid=57581 * B jonas * (+34) link functional
09:15:02 <wob_jonas> DARN IT
09:15:06 <wob_jonas> sry
09:15:29 <Taneb> wob_jonas: you OK?
09:15:46 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I found the tuple-based pointfree functional language I was looking for: it's linked right from the [[Amycus]] article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_(programming_language)
09:18:27 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57588&oldid=57587 * B jonas * (-48)
09:18:57 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that's the one that only has single-argument functions and you must use tuples
09:20:15 <shachaf> OK, but the fact that you can use tuples to make single-argument functions work isn't interesting.
09:20:24 <shachaf> This is also how math functions works.
09:20:25 <shachaf> work
09:21:09 <shachaf> The interesting part is making it work in a low-level language with respect to types and memory layout and so on.
09:22:13 <wob_jonas> I'm still editing the wiki a bit
09:22:23 <wob_jonas> shachaf: right
09:23:21 <wob_jonas> it is still interesting for me because it gives one of the simpler models for a pointfree functional language with multi-argument functions, whereas SKI calculus and BCKW calculus give that with curried functions
09:23:28 <wob_jonas> actually
09:24:32 <wob_jonas> FP gives a model with tuples and single-argument functions, the language Amycus was supposed to be gives a simple model for multi-argument functions (if you ignore the arithmetic part), and what I said above for curried functinos
09:27:45 <shachaf> Functions + tuples is more complicated than just functions, of course.
09:28:35 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57589 * B jonas * (+2944) Created page with "'''The language Amycus was supposed to be''' is simple Turing-equivalent programming language defined by [[David Madore]] in [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16...."
09:29:28 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but curried functions are also more complicated than just functions, and multi-argument functions are more complicated than just functions
09:29:37 <wob_jonas> so neither is obviously simpler than the others
09:39:49 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57590&oldid=57589 * B jonas * (+2951)
09:44:40 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57591&oldid=52397 * B jonas * (+147)
09:46:25 <fizzie> shachaf: Is the lime not green already?
09:46:37 <shachaf> I mean make the background lime green.
09:46:41 <shachaf> it's a bad idea hth
09:46:52 <shachaf> but it would help people not confuse it with wikipedia
09:48:02 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57592&oldid=57591 * B jonas * (+172)
09:49:05 <wob_jonas> you could make the sidebar a shade of lime?
09:49:58 <shachaf> Taneb: Oh, are you at the categories summer school in Amsterdam this week?
09:50:14 <Taneb> shachaf: I am not, I'm afraid
09:50:27 <Taneb> Didn't realise there was one
09:50:38 <shachaf> Wait, it's a summer school in algebra and topology. The thing only said "categories" because it was on the categories mailing list.
09:51:26 <shachaf> Also it's not in Amsterdam?
09:51:38 <shachaf> I guess the thing my friend went to in Amsterdam wasn't the thing I had on my calendar.
09:53:13 <Taneb> So, I'm definitely not at the categories summer school in Amsterdam that isnt about categories and isn't in Amsterdam
09:53:26 <shachaf> how can you tell you aren't
09:53:57 <esowiki> [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57593&oldid=52889 * B jonas * (+263)
09:54:46 <esowiki> [[(0)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57594&oldid=52919 * B jonas * (+2) /* with arrays */
09:55:06 <Taneb> I'm presuming it's still a summer school
09:55:13 <Taneb> ...it's not even summer any more
09:56:04 <shachaf> look
09:56:06 <shachaf> mistakes were made
09:56:56 <esowiki> [[(0)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57595&oldid=57594 * B jonas * (+27) /* with arrays */
09:57:11 <shachaf> Taneb: anyway you should go
09:57:19 <shachaf> and say hi to my friend?
09:57:31 <shachaf> she probably isn't even there
09:57:40 <shachaf> man
09:57:53 <shachaf> `? categories
09:57:54 <HackEso> categories? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:57:57 <shachaf> `? category
09:57:58 <HackEso> A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes.
09:58:14 <shachaf> `dowg category
09:58:16 <HackEso> 6118:2015-10-22 <tsweẗt> le/rn category/A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes. \ 6030:2015-09-24 <tsweẗt> le/rn category/A category is just a category object in the category of classes. \ 5138:2014-11-16 <shachäf> revert 5134 \ 5135:2014-11-16 <ellioẗt> find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El \'(is|are) just\' | xargs rm \ 2611:2013-04-05 <oerjän> revert \ 2610:2013-04-05 <oerjän> lea
09:58:31 <shachaf> `? monoidal category
09:58:32 <HackEso> Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object.
09:58:50 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: maths
09:58:51 <HackEso> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms.
09:59:05 <shachaf> `? histogram
09:59:07 <HackEso> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
10:00:03 <shachaf> `learn Cryptography is the practice of charting crypto prices.
10:00:10 <shachaf> I can't bring myself to put that in wisdom
10:00:54 <shachaf> `owrjan
10:00:55 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
10:01:26 <shachaf> `swrjan s/g/ideal g/
10:01:29 <HackEso> oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
10:16:30 <wob_jonas> SQL question. I have a table l with column m that has a small domain and column e that is ordered (has timestamps). I have an input number ?n, and assuming that ?n is greater than the domain of m,
10:17:16 <wob_jonas> I want to exactly ?n rows such that the row from each value of m with the latest e is alwasy shown, and other rows are added so they have the latest e all around. What's an easy way to do this in SQL?
10:20:59 <wob_jonas> I think it's something like SELECT mm.* FROM (SELECT * FROM l ORDER BY l.t DESC LIMIT ?n UNION some query here to select the latest row from each group) AS ll ORDER BY ll.m, ll.t ASC LIMIT ?n;
10:23:49 <wob_jonas> And I guess that part after the UNION could be SELECT * FROM l WHERE l.e = MAX(l.e) GROUP BY l.m
10:23:56 <wob_jonas> and ll.t should be ll.e instead above
10:25:07 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57596&oldid=57588 * Plokmijnuhby * (+23) Corrected the link to Joy
10:25:38 <wob_jonas> But there might be a simpler way
10:34:57 <wob_jonas> Different question, also more practical than esoteric. You have a plastic food container of whose bottom half is filled with rice, then on that are two flat pieces of meat each of which have a size and shape to almost completely fill the horizontal cross-section of the container, then some air over that. You can use the container, its lid (which is
10:34:57 <wob_jonas> thus only a bit smaller in area than the meat slices), a knife and a fork to move and slice the meat.
10:36:28 <wob_jonas> You don't want to use a plate. You can only cut the meat if it's on the lid, and only if there's nothing over it, or if you cut it together with what's over it. Is there a practical way to rearrange and eat all of this such that in each step you first eat a small amount of rice, then a small amount of meat, each time the same amount, and at a rate
10:36:29 <wob_jonas> that you run out of rice and meat at the same step.
10:38:19 <wob_jonas> Hmm no, I defined that in a too easy way.
10:38:57 <wob_jonas> I didn't exclude the case when you just cut the two slices of meat together put onto each other all the time, but that's not actually practical.
10:48:42 <esowiki> [[(0)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57597&oldid=57595 * B jonas * (+31) clarify definition of (0)
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11:42:37 <esowiki> [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57598&oldid=57593 * B jonas * (+83)
11:42:59 <esowiki> [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57599&oldid=57598 * B jonas * (+0)
11:44:11 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57600&oldid=57590 * B jonas * (+952)
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12:15:42 <fizzie> Ah, so make esolangs.org (lime green), not make (esolangs.org lime) green.
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12:43:07 <Taneb> I think the esolangs.org lime should not be green
12:43:20 <Taneb> (why is there a lime?)
12:52:38 <fizzie> It's symbolic.
12:52:44 <fizzie> Also the proper term is "trilime".
12:53:04 <Taneb> I see
12:54:31 <fizzie> I once made https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/trilime.svg as a potential more abstract replacement, but it was not popular.
12:54:54 <Taneb> I don't think squares are particularly esoteric
12:54:55 <wob_jonas> let's not use svg stuff for this
12:56:15 <fizzie> I think the idea was to cut down on file size.
12:56:29 <fizzie> I'm sure it'd be smaller rendered as PNG too.
12:57:01 <wob_jonas> fizzie: but a png for the same quares would be pretty tiny too, even more so if you aligned some of the edges to pixel boundaries, but even without that png compresses this stuff pretty well, and crucially,
12:57:17 <fizzie> Yes, that's what I meant.
12:59:10 <wob_jonas> the png is much more friendly on browser performance, because an SVG has to be stored as heavy objects in browser memory just like any other part of the DOM, because anything in the SVG can be potentially modified by javascript, or even if there's no javascript, the SVG has to be rerendered if CSS computed values change because of reflowing during
12:59:10 <wob_jonas> rendering the page or some element loading or the user interacting with the page.
12:59:22 <wob_jonas> That's why I hate SVGs in webpages.
12:59:32 <wob_jonas> They're not independent vector graphics files that just get rendered once.
12:59:47 <wob_jonas> They're heavy objects just like anything with lots of nested HTML elements.
13:00:40 <wob_jonas> Or just like mathML, but for mathML, you do want the reflowing to happen, whereas for vector graphics you just want it rendered once to a fixed size just like images are typically rendered.
13:02:18 <wob_jonas> And this is why I passionately hate SVG. It's not a bad format to represent and exchange vector images, but for embedding a final image in a webpage, it's horrible. Canvases are much better, because they only have to keep the pixel image buffer in RAM, which you generally want to keep for any rendered image anyawy.
13:02:27 <wob_jonas> (And that buffer can be kept in video RAM.)
13:03:03 <wob_jonas> So please, in the name of people like me who use low-performance computers with too little RAM and these horrible modern memory-hungry browsers, I ask you to not use SVGs.
13:12:34 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57601&oldid=57600 * B jonas * (+3878) how to program, first part
13:16:43 <wob_jonas> I'm writing the article for the language Amycus was supposed to be. Then in theory I should merge some of the improvements on notation (renamings) into the Amycus article.
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13:21:41 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57602&oldid=57601 * B jonas * (+1140)
13:34:35 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57603&oldid=57602 * B jonas * (+323) fix arithmetic
13:46:45 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57604&oldid=57603 * B jonas * (+1181)
13:46:54 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57605&oldid=57592 * B jonas * (+1) notation
13:51:35 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57606&oldid=57605 * B jonas * (+0)
13:52:50 <esowiki> [[Amycus Severus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57607&oldid=46673 * B jonas * (-1136) notation, interpreter moved away to [[the language Amycus was supposed to be]]
13:53:27 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57608&oldid=57604 * B jonas * (+145)
13:55:58 <wob_jonas> Hmm, if I document multiple language variants on one page, like on [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]], and some of them are implemented but some are unimplemented, and some of them are Turing-equivalent but some are so much more powerful that they are unimplementable, then can I put the page into multiple contradictory categories?
13:56:39 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57609&oldid=57596 * B jonas * (-15)
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14:00:31 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57610&oldid=57608 * B jonas * (+477) categories
14:07:47 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57611&oldid=57610 * B jonas * (-427)
14:07:50 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57612&oldid=57606 * B jonas * (+1)
14:08:55 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57613&oldid=57611 * B jonas * (-24)
14:22:18 <esowiki> [[Hyperamycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57614&oldid=45511 * B jonas * (+176) Hyperamycus is now David's original language, based on [[the language Amycus was supposed to be]], not on [[Amycus]]. The extension of [[Amycus]] wasn't documented or used for anything anyway.
14:54:16 <esowiki> [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57615&oldid=57613 * B jonas * (+5)
15:20:22 <wob_jonas> Hmm. I think there's a stupid bug in David Madore's definition of Hyperamycus. I sent him a comment asking what exact definition he meant. When he'll reply, I'll be able to clarify in our Hyperamycus article.
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17:35:35 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57616&oldid=57549 * Blacksilver * (+326) LIFECYCLE heading
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19:47:14 <\oren\> To compromise between a voiced alveolar fricative and a voiced velar stop, I propose that 'gif' be pronounced with a voiced velar fricative
19:47:33 <\oren\> /ɣɪf/
19:57:14 <\oren\> although a /gɣɪf/ sounds like a terrible thing
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20:24:33 <shachaf> \oren\: Man, I can barely tell velar and uvular fricatives apart.
20:31:24 <shachaf> \oren\: Did you fix your build system?
20:35:11 <\oren\> shachaf: uh, a bit?
20:35:26 <\oren\> but more things were added so it still takes over 12 hours
20:46:43 <shachaf> I suggest that 12 seconds is too long.
20:47:51 <\oren\> shachaf: lol
20:48:34 <shachaf> i mean that seriously hth
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21:15:25 <\oren\> https://i.redditmedia.com/cD3bDx4ojOYobUyjYSXbGtELbjom6DaIeY6QnJEiBMw.png?s=0fa076c287fa00eebea104cab8bb9a6d
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22:04:02 <esowiki> [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57617&oldid=52545 * Qwertyu63 * (-38)
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22:06:41 <esowiki> [[The Great Spell]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57618&oldid=57617 * Qwertyu63 * (+118)
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2018-09-14
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01:54:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Combinatory logic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57619&oldid=57580 * Oerjan * (+49) /* Keywords */ unfnordsigned
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02:02:33 <oerjan> `` sed s,.,.,g quotes | nl | sort | tail -n 1
02:02:34 <HackEso> ​ 999.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
02:02:40 <oerjan> `quote 999
02:02:41 <HackEso> 999) <kmc> i had a dream just now where i was in a gymnasium and they had fire alarm pull stations but they also had a similarly shaped "call/cc alarm" which I think you were supposed to pull if you found a way to write call/cc (it was expected that people in this gymnasium would be doing a lot of programming in total dependently-typed languages)
02:03:12 <oerjan> `` quote 999 | wc
02:03:13 <HackEso> ​ 1 65 349
02:05:51 <oerjan> i guess 746 bytes is a bit too long for a quote.
02:08:35 <oerjan> (that summer school conversation between shachaf and Taneb)
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02:19:33 <oerjan> <\oren\> although a /gɣɪf/ sounds like a terrible thing <-- unbegrifflich!
02:20:24 <oerjan> hmph it's actually -greif-
02:21:17 <oerjan> despite the noun being Begriff.
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02:48:48 <zzo38> How to find Haskell packages that provide instances of a class defined in another package?
03:05:33 <oerjan> i believe there's a reverse dependency search for packages, although that won't care about instances only
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03:23:38 <SchrodingersCat> https://paste.ee/p/3cGPc
03:24:04 <SchrodingersCat> like the lang?
03:24:11 <SchrodingersCat> is it esoteric?
03:26:40 <SchrodingersCat> meow?
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03:29:22 <SchrodingersCat> half-meow?
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03:51:11 <Lyka> hi
03:51:57 <Lyka> could some please tell me if https://paste.ee/p/3cGPc is esoteric enough?
03:58:28 <Lyka> could someone please respond?
03:58:46 <Lyka> not sure if i'm connected
03:59:27 <shachaf> you are connected
04:00:20 <shachaf> but you're acting in a way that makes at least me not want to respond, and you're asking a question which is meaningless and/or underspecified and/or uninteresting
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04:00:41 <shachaf> and i'm being a grouch so, y'know, who's the real winner here
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04:10:44 <Lyka> sorry, i can't think of a witty response in time
04:12:49 <Lyka> does the rest of the channel share shachaf's "grouchiness"?
04:13:13 <shachaf> it's only me
04:13:32 <Lyka> 87 other users
04:13:38 <shachaf> i mean, they might share the opinions?
04:14:37 <shachaf> I can clarify what I meant but it's probably better if I just stop talking.
04:14:46 <zzo38> I looked at what you linked to and I do not know the answer of the question. A description should be needed rather than just the example
04:14:46 <Lyka> you are the kind of greeter that turns people away
04:15:12 <Lyka> thanks zzo38
04:15:12 <shachaf> Only some of the time.
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05:17:05 <myname> O.o
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13:16:41 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57620&oldid=57616 * Blacksilver * (+42) Using <noinclude> to link back to the main ESOPUNK page
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13:34:54 <esowiki> [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57621&oldid=57540 * YamTokWae * (+76)
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14:10:38 <zzo38> Is there a complete AY8930 emulation which is free software?
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14:14:07 <wob_jonas> I was just answering some questions for a voluntary survey poll, in person with the person taking it deliberately showing his comptuer screen, and she tried to pull the old "the computer doesn't offer a 'declines to answer' option for this question and doesn't let me proceed", as if that had any implication
14:15:05 <wob_jonas> Also, esolang news. 1. David Madore replied to my question, so now I'll be able to document the actual semantics of his non-computable language.
14:17:00 <wob_jonas> 2. I figured out the most horrible esoteric names for those languages. I will call my distorted variant Amycus and his original variant Amicus, since they differ in one punctuation mark that I misread in the definition, and I kept messing up the name and used Amycus and Amicus when I wrote up the article like a year ago.
14:17:29 <wob_jonas> I'll edit the articles to make the names consistent and explain the naming, and at some point I'll ask for a few page renames.
14:17:36 <wob_jonas> On the esowiki that is.
14:17:40 <zzo38> Yes, that is better than what you have now
14:17:48 <wob_jonas> Unless I already have rename privilages.
14:18:32 <wob_jonas> zzo38: at least that one looks like a provisional name, so I won't feel bad about changing the name after documenting it, at least if I leave some remark about the old name.
14:19:08 <wob_jonas> Hyperamicus was barely documented, on the Hyperamycus page, so I can rename that especially easily, and I just won't care about my mistaken version, that's not interesting.
14:19:41 <wob_jonas> So I'll have Amycus, Amycus Severus, Amicus, and Hyperamicus.
14:20:06 <wob_jonas> Sadly "Amycus" is what the name was supposed to be and "Amicus" is the etymologically incorrect one, but I don't want to change "Amycus" now.
14:20:17 <zzo38> OK
14:20:45 <wob_jonas> Not that it matters, because it's not like the etymology makes any sense for the language.
14:21:32 <zzo38> OK
14:22:28 <wob_jonas> I just chose something because David doesn't give any reasonable names. He just talks about "rigorous definition" and "evaluation function" and "representation of programs" and such things, nothing to distinguish it from other languages.
14:22:44 <wob_jonas> (0) has the same problem
14:23:46 <wob_jonas> that one is eight languages, with the language variants numbered but no family name
14:25:30 <wob_jonas> this one also has some variants named, namely there's a Turing-powered version, a hyperarithmetic version, a variant definition still hyperarithmetic marked with club (the card suit symbol), and an intermediate minor variant that doesn't even have a name that's between the two hyperarithmetic ones
14:26:02 <wob_jonas> (the last three have exactly the same power, but the language specification differs a bit technically, the point is only to prove that they're all equivalent)
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15:51:02 <zzo38> Using the last strike rules for Magic: the Gathering that I made up before Unstable was released, I more recently made up this: {?} Creature - ? (0/1) ;; Last strike ;; ~ has +X/+X where X is the amount of damage marked on ~.
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17:07:38 <izabera> Taneb: do you want booze
17:08:17 <izabera> you can come but you can't have analcoholic drinks
17:21:09 <FireFly> that's a weird constraint
17:22:25 <shachaf> FireFly: Good AfternireFly
17:22:40 <FireFly> Good schafening
17:23:01 <shachaf> people will nevre stop seeing "sch" in my name :'(
17:25:53 <FireFly> whoops
17:25:56 <FireFly> accidental >.<
17:26:35 <fizzie> ^scramble shachaf
17:26:35 <fungot> sahfach
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17:56:16 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57622&oldid=57547 * Blacksilver * (+91) Interpreter is functional!
18:07:38 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57623&oldid=57569 * Sinthorion * (-909)
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18:30:38 <zzo38> Now Farbfeld Utilities includes a program to read a nautical chart file.
18:32:00 <esowiki> [[BFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57624&oldid=57623 * Sinthorion * (+0)
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19:32:13 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57625&oldid=55509 * Joshop * (+119)
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19:33:57 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57626&oldid=57625 * Joshop * (+0)
19:46:38 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57627&oldid=57626 * Joshop * (+73) /* Example programs */
19:47:30 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57628&oldid=57627 * Joshop * (+15) /* XOR */
20:00:52 <zzo38> Twan van Laarhoven wrote about a "FunList" comonad: data FunList a b = Done b | More a (Funlist a (a -> b));
20:01:12 <shachaf> Lens has a variant of that called Bazaar
20:01:32 <shachaf> Bazaar a b t = forall f. Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> f t
20:03:24 <zzo38> OK
20:03:45 <shachaf> It's an indexed comonad.
20:03:57 <zzo38> OK
20:04:00 <shachaf> Bazaar a a = FunList a (almost)
20:04:26 <zzo38> How is that?
20:05:19 <shachaf> Bazaar is (almost) the same as data Bazaar a b t = Done t | More a (Bazaar a (b -> t))
20:05:47 <shachaf> By "almost" I mean up to fancy reassociation things with infinite data and so on.
20:31:33 <zzo38> If you use Co (FunList a) or CodensityAsk (FunList a) what kind of monad is it making? There seem a relation of FunList with Store comonad
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20:35:40 <tswett> Hey everyone.
20:35:43 <tswett> I feel an esolang coming on.
20:37:09 <zzo38> Is the stuff about incrementing and decrementing lists mentioned for Amycus OK? I am not so sure? It doesn't look good to me, and I tried to make in Haskell but doesn't seems to work, but I don't know if I made a mistake.
20:37:29 <tswett> It's a train-based esolang.
20:37:50 <shachaf> there's a channel for that
20:38:34 <tswett> You define a bunch of train tracks and put trains on them. The trains attempt to travel down the tracks. Trains can only go straight or make wide right turns.
20:39:05 <tswett> All trains move at a constant speed unless they are blocked.
20:47:37 <tswett> The most obvious component you might want to make out of these trains and tracks is a certain type of train detector.
20:47:59 <tswett> It has two input tracks, I1 and I2, and three outputs, O1, O2a, and O2b.
20:48:22 <tswett> A train arriving at I1 always leaves at O1. A train arriving at I2 leaves at O2a if a train arrived at I1 at the same time, and at O2b otherwise.
20:49:20 <tswett> Now, it's pretty easy to conditionally *delay* a train.
20:50:05 <tswett> You can route the tracks from I1 and I2 to an intersection, such that if trains are put into both I1 and I2, then the train from I1 will arrive first, and pass through unaffected, but will block I2.
20:51:19 <tswett> But then you need to make a mechanism which will send the train from I2 down either O2a or O2b, depending on its time of arrival.
20:57:38 <tswett> I think it's possible, but ugly.
20:57:57 <tswett> I'll need to clarify the rules of train movement.
20:59:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Amycus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57629 * Zzo38 * (+582) I think the stuff at the bottom about incrementing/decrementing lists is not quite correct
20:59:25 <tswett> The world consists of a grid. Each cell of the grid contains either track or wall; tracks don't have any distinguished direction.
21:00:31 <zzo38> You can write a article in wiki about how the trains are moved and that stuff
21:00:41 <tswett> A train consists of a sequence of cars, each of which occupies one cell. The cars must be orthogonally or diagonally adjacent to each other. Only the front car has any freedom of movement; the other cars simply follow it.
21:00:55 <tswett> I sure could. :D
21:02:50 <tswett> The front car is considered to "face" directly away from the second car. When the front car moves, it can only move either into the cell directly ahead of it, or into the cell that's 45 degrees clockwise of that cell.
21:03:49 <tswett> The latter motion will, of course, produce a 45-degree bend in the train.
21:04:08 <tswett> There's one more rule which restricts these 45-degree turns.
21:05:50 <tswett> Two more, rather.
21:05:59 <tswett> The front car cannot perform a turn if this would produce two consecutive 45-degree bends in the train.
21:06:39 <tswett> Also, the front car cannot make any move which would result in the cell immediately ahead of the front car being a wall.
21:06:46 <tswett> So! That was long and complicated.
21:07:17 <tswett> Let me see if I can post a certain little construct.
21:07:59 <tswett> The answer is no, not easily.
21:08:21 <tswett> But, anyway, the construction is just a fork in the track, with another track crossing the fork.
21:09:39 <tswett> As a train approaches the forking track, if there's a train in the crossing track in exactly the right place, then the train on the forking track will be either forced straight ahead or forced to the right, depending on the position of the train on the crossing track.
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2018-09-15
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02:08:23 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re succ and pred on lists, I don't know, I haven't tested the rules, so there can easily be bugs in them
02:09:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: if they're buggy, you might have to re-derive them from the definitions of list representation, and perhaps compare that definition to the one given in David's article,
02:09:33 <wob_jonas> but note that Amicus's list repr is very different from (0)'s pair repr
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02:15:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57630&oldid=57629 * Zzo38 * (+0)
02:18:56 <zzo38> They are French and I am not so good at French.
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02:20:52 <zzo38> Furthermore, the definition that I wrote will need also the other case in case e=0.
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02:33:37 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57631&oldid=56394 * HereToAnnoy * (+64) added D.U.C.K.
02:34:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57632&oldid=57553 * HereToAnnoy * (+15) /* D */ added D.U.C.K.
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04:11:57 <zzo38> I mentioned in talk page that <0:<e:m>>+1 = <1:<e-1:m>> and I think also <0:<0:<e:m>>>+1 = <2:<e-1:m>> and so on, they tell you how many zero at first. This is working even if you do not have any zero at first, so that <e:m>+1 = <0:<e-1:m>> (which is in fact what the fourth rule says), I think?
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04:13:49 <zzo38> Does anyone on here other than wob_jonas able to comment?
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06:05:43 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. but now I'm also concerned by [[Amycus#Writing_Amycus_programs]], some of which seems wrong
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08:41:27 <esowiki> [[User talk:Star651]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57633&oldid=44610 * Star651 * (+257) /* Um. */
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16:58:50 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57634&oldid=54702 * Singingbanana * (-170)
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16:59:59 <wob_jonas> There was an elephant hiding under my bed!
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18:55:08 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I did not check the part about writing Amycus programs
18:56:14 <zzo38> Did you read what I wrote on the talk page?
18:56:40 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes. it is quite possible that my laws for pred and succ are wrong.
19:02:27 <zzo38> I think that if the list start with any amount of zero (including zero) then it is <n:<e-1:m>> where n tells how many zero at first. If all of them are zero then it is <n:0>. So first two rules is OK, and fourth rule is also OK, but third rule is no good. This my idea is therefore making the description of one rule (which may be expanded to make multiple rules that can be recursive, because the number "n" also needs to be converted into a list).
19:02:38 <zzo38> And then for pred you can do other way around.
19:35:55 <zzo38> I am now trying to make it in Haskell
19:39:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I found an M:tG card under my bed, which must have been hiding there for more than a month. And it was an Elephant too, not some sneaky blue creature.
19:43:40 <zzo38> OK. What card specifically?
19:45:13 <wob_jonas> Noble Elephant (Mirage)
19:45:50 <zzo38> OK
19:57:09 <zzo38> Here is the proper rules for incrementing lists in Amycus (I think): https://arin.ga/bSdNQA
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20:00:46 <zzo38> Does it looks like good to you? The rules for pred are same, but rules for succ is a bit difference.
20:10:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ok
20:13:05 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57635&oldid=57612 * Zzo38 * (-26) Corrected rules for incrementing lists
20:13:27 <zzo38> I fixed the [[Amycus]] article now; you can look
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21:18:00 <esowiki> [[Technologic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57636 * JWinslow23 * (+9035) Created page with "'''Technologic''' is a programming language created in [[:Category:2018|2018]] in which all keywords are lyrics to the Daft Punk song "Technologic". == Design Philosophy ==..."
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21:34:43 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * B jonas * moved [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]] to [[Amicus]]: figured out a good name David's language, so I'm renaming it. hope it's not too late.
21:38:15 <esowiki> [[Hyperamycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57639&oldid=57614 * B jonas * (-145) renamed language
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21:53:33 <esowiki> [[Amicus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57640&oldid=57637 * B jonas * (-554) rename
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21:56:06 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57641&oldid=57635 * B jonas * (+11)
21:58:15 <esowiki> [[Amycus Severus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57642&oldid=57607 * B jonas * (+12)
21:59:06 <esowiki> [[Pointfree programming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57643&oldid=57609 * B jonas * (-32)
22:00:14 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57644&oldid=57641 * B jonas * (-32)
22:01:07 <esowiki> [[David Madore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57645&oldid=57599 * B jonas * (-243)
22:08:57 <zzo38> Is there any need to explain the view pattern?
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22:24:41 <shachaf> Are there any languages on the wiki with names like "User:Oerjan" or "Special: Search"?
22:26:47 <zzo38> I think someone once named a language after their own user page
22:28:52 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Language
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22:38:05 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
22:38:06 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
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23:27:56 <esowiki> [[Hyperamycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57646&oldid=57639 * B jonas * (+250) Rule 7
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23:46:47 <wob_jonas> `"
23:46:48 <HackEso> 76) <Gregor> I don't know that I've ever heard apocalypi described in terms of depth ... \ 560) <Phantom__Hoover> Also you steal Berwick from us and then say you don't want it? <Ngevd> You stole it from us first!
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2018-09-16
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01:09:14 <zzo38> Oops I found another bug in SQLite that it segfaults if the argument to sqlite3_declare_vtab() specifies a "INTEGER PRIMARY KEY" column and also "WITHOUT ROWID". (Although, it is possible to work around by changing it to "INT PRIMARY KEY", but still it is a bug)
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01:46:07 <zzo38> Now I made a SQLite extension that for example you can write: create virtual table out using audiopipe('aplay -t raw -c 1 -f S32_LE -r 44100' signed integer mono); insert into out select value,sin(value*tau()*440/44100)*.9 from range(0,44099,1); and you can make the tone audible.
01:46:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> Are there any languages on the wiki with names like "User:Oerjan" or "Special: Search"? <-- i don't think the latter is possible to create under that article name
01:47:12 <oerjan> unless fizzie hacks something, i guess
01:47:15 <shachaf> oerjan: I meant "Special:Search" but I was typing on my phone.
01:47:26 <zzo38> (This assumes your computer is small-endian and "int" size is 32-bits)
01:47:30 <oerjan> well even worse
01:48:01 <oerjan> but Special: is special, so you cannot create ordinary articles there
01:48:10 <oerjan> (well, i assume)
01:49:26 <oerjan> hm was there an esolang in Talk:
01:50:52 <oerjan> hm maybe not, but there's https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk_talk:Turing_tarpit
01:52:17 <oerjan> i guess : is allowed in article names when what's before isn't a namespace.
01:53:01 <shachaf> i propose a Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: namespace hth
01:56:52 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57647&oldid=57644 * Oerjan * (-96) /* Amycus Severus */ This seems to have been renamed
02:01:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57648&oldid=57630 * Zzo38 * (+290)
02:01:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:Star651]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57649&oldid=57633 * Oerjan * (+50) /* Um. */ Unsigned
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07:00:17 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57650&oldid=56875 * A * (+67)
07:00:41 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57651&oldid=57650 * A * (+4) ...
07:02:52 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57652&oldid=57651 * A * (+26) Title not good enough
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07:10:25 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57653&oldid=57652 * A * (+69) /* Big width loops(for easier byte printing) */
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07:23:45 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57654&oldid=57653 * A * (+60) /* Big width loops(for easier byte printing) */
07:24:05 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57655&oldid=57654 * A * (+2) /* Big width loops(for easier byte printing) */
07:24:40 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57656&oldid=57655 * A * (+30) /* Big width loops(for easier byte printing) */
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07:29:38 <esowiki> [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57657&oldid=57656 * A * (+44) /* Big width loops(for easier byte printing) */
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12:32:22 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in Amycus,where you write succ(<<>: (succ → <e: m>)>) = <succ(e): m>;, does that mean succ(<<>: p>) = <succ(e): m> where <e: m> = succ(p); ?
12:32:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: because I think that's more easy to understand than the view pattern
12:44:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but you can still try to give that name to a language, and document it under a different page name with a "technical reasons" hatnote. that's the usual workaround.
12:45:23 <wob_jonas> also, random tidbit, on en.wikipedia, we can't create page names starting with "M:tG" because "M:" is an interwiki prefix for meta.wikimedia.org
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12:50:25 <FireFly> Heh
12:50:50 <FireFly> Although it probably wouldn't be an appropriate page name either way (for policy reasons rather than technical ones, though)
13:00:14 <wob_jonas> FireFly: en.wikipedia has have lots of local redirects starting with "W:" or "T:" or a few other letters that aren't interwiki links actually
13:00:45 <wob_jonas> "W:" for abbreviated names in Project:, "T:" for abbreviated names in Template: etc
13:02:22 <wob_jonas> FireFly: certain two or three letter combos with colon are much riskier, because new languages of wikipedia get started all the time, and get two or three letter interwiki prefixes most of the time, whereas new one-letter abbreviations are rare
13:02:41 <FireFly> *nod*
13:03:17 <wob_jonas> Though some of those shortcuts might predate interwikimedia links in en.wikipedia
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13:26:45 <wob_jonas> In fact, I suspect Wiktionary didn't get a one-letter shortcut because they didn't want to disrupt all the existing "T:" links everywhere
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15:26:32 <zzo38> It is what I mean; change it if you want to
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16:11:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YouXplode * New user account
16:19:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57658&oldid=57543 * YouXplode * (+170) Added introduction stuff
16:21:03 <esowiki> [[Flip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57659&oldid=34279 * YouXplode * (+104) Added another external resource.
16:22:04 <esowiki> [[Flip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57660&oldid=57659 * YouXplode * (+28) Messed up earlier
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16:36:59 <ais523> @messages?
16:36:59 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
16:41:31 <ais523> re: namespaces, it'd be nice if : was an escape character /everywhere/
16:41:57 <ais523> e.g. you could put a colon at the start of any article name to put it into the main namespace
16:42:21 <ais523> although then you'd have to change the existing :Category: syntax for linking to a category without incoporating the article into the category
16:42:45 <ais523> (that said, the [[Category:Languages]] syntax is pretty nonorthogonal as it is)
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17:57:34 <esowiki> [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57661&oldid=57647 * B jonas * (+4) /* Implementing */
18:00:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: [[:Category:foo]] is just one of the uses, there's also [[:File:foo]] to link instead of embed. what if you used the character < or > in double-bracket links instead of trying to change how : works?
18:01:08 <ais523> embedding of an image should be {{File:foo}}
18:01:14 <ais523> as that's pretty much just a transclusion
18:02:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but it's too late to change that in Mediawiki. {{File:Foo}} already transcludes the page for the media.
18:02:17 <ais523> it's too late to change most of htis
18:02:25 <wob_jonas> same for categories
18:02:28 <ais523> but you could probably do it correctly if you designed a wikimarkup syntax from scratch
18:02:53 <ais523> you should probably have different names for the image and the image description page…
18:04:11 <wob_jonas> the image isn't even a page. it's in a totally different dimension from the desc page. mediawiki actually allows you to create just the desc page in File: ns with no versions of the file uploaded (yet)
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18:27:36 <zzo38> Is there a MediaWiki extension to embed SQL codes into a page? If no virtual tables are enabled then only the data specified by other SQL codes in that page or transcluded into that page are used, but some virtual tables may be enabled that can be used to access other stuff too such as other wiki pages and history and so on. You can then use the WIKI_TABLE aggregate function to make a table, and you can also specify queries that aren't included in
18:28:32 <zzo38> Another extension I was interested in is a extension to use TeX codes without texvc, instead using a custom format file (that I wrote) to disable some functions (so that it cannot read or write any external files or use \special).
18:28:58 <wob_jonas> zzo38: dunno. look at what external stuff the lua extension can access.
18:30:50 <zzo38> (I have not checked if the PHP interface for SQLite allows you to set an authorizer callback or set limits, or to load extensions or define your own virtual tables and aggregate functions.)
18:31:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: why is SQLite relevant? is it even used anywhere in MediaWiki?
18:31:41 <wob_jonas> I think mediawiki uses some other database as its backend
18:32:04 <zzo38> I think it supports SQLite as an option (I am not sure; I don't remember).
18:33:44 <zzo38> I also don't know if the other database backends even have a authorizer callback or can create in memory databases or virtual tables (although if the same backend is used for the user SQL codes as the MediaWiki storage database then you might not need virtual tables).
18:34:22 <wob_jonas> many database backends have a users and permissions system instead of an authorizer callback
18:34:39 <wob_jonas> and you can add custom views and functions to add authorized things
18:35:10 <zzo38> Yes, I knew about custom views
18:35:17 <zzo38> And can you associate RDF data with a MediaWiki article with any extension?
18:35:29 <wob_jonas> I don't know
18:35:52 <wob_jonas> you can try one of https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_channels
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18:56:38 <zzo38> Do you think the window functions in SQLite is good? I think there is many use of it. But, you cannot nest window functions or use them in a aggregate query or in a UPDATE statement; although there are ways to work around all of these things (by using subqueries, or in the case of UPDATE, to use REPLACE INTO instead, if it is suitable to what you are making; to use this with virtual tables you must implement REPLACE for those virtual tables).
18:58:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't really know. it seems like a compatibility thing that one paying customer of sqlite3 required for porting scripts from some other database engine, because half of the docs is about crazy compatibility rules, not like any sane design sqlite would add on its own
18:58:49 <zzo38> Maybe that is why they put it in; I don't know.
18:59:08 <wob_jonas> it can be both
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18:59:58 <wob_jonas> but https://sqlite.org/windowfunctions.html#history is straight about the comaptibility
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19:02:56 <zzo38> There is a few problem with the documentation, such as that there does not seem to be a link to that document from the documents about the SQL syntax.
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19:15:44 <moony> Designing a homebrew computer is fun
19:16:00 <moony> maybe i should hook it up to IRC once i finally build it and it's functioning
19:16:14 <zzo38> Yes, and I had some of my own ideas of designing a computer too (but have not implemented it, or even completed the design)
19:17:16 <moony> i already decided the main CPU, a MC68030FE33C
19:17:27 <moony> and am working on the DMA/Blitter device
19:17:51 <moony> which will be mapped somewhere directly before RAM starts
19:29:21 <zzo38> Do you know of input, and video modes, and audio?
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22:33:11 <Lyka> what do you think of this language? https://paste.ee/p/Z929D
22:34:25 <Lyka> this is the only place i know to ask
22:34:50 <Lyka> and i have been greeted with unjust hostility about it
22:36:42 <zzo38> I suppose it look like OK
22:37:35 <Lyka> i was wondering if it qualified as esoteric
22:38:24 <Lyka> so i could discuss it here
22:39:26 <zzo38> I don't know, but maybe there should be added notation for labels and for comments.
22:41:55 <Lyka> good point
22:42:25 <Lyka> have a pre-pre-parser remove them
22:44:18 <Lyka> (it's complicated to run)
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01:25:39 <zzo38> How to do CSS so that after the counter reaches a specific number then it resets and uses a different style for the numbers after that?
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01:55:44 <moony> This is going to be fun. I just bought the last copy of the MC88100's manual off ebay. If i end up not buying a MC88100 to play with, i'll resell it, tho.
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13:49:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: re CSS lists, perhaps see "https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-css-counter-styles-3-20130221/#fixed-system" or "https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/@counter-style#Examples"
13:57:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: see also the range and fallback proeprties in @counter-style
13:58:12 <wob_jonas> which should be on the same page but not necessarily in the same section
13:58:32 <wob_jonas> eg. there's a @counter-style definition given for roman numerals and more
14:05:05 <wob_jonas> oh, I forgot to list this
14:05:08 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/dick/
14:05:09 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/dick/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
14:05:19 <wob_jonas> yeah, different meaning of list
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15:55:52 <\oren\> evil idea:
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15:56:57 <\oren\> write all your SQL like this InSeRt InTo snacks VaLuEs
15:59:45 <\oren\> sElEcT name FrOm users wHeRe region
16:02:05 <zzo38> It is case-insensitive and so can accept that, but I do not intend to do like that (I don't know how it affects compression, but I expect probably if you write in all uppercase or all lowercase instead of mixed up, it can be compress better)
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16:36:31 <zzo38> Do you know that it is possible in ZZT (although an external editor is needed) for a program to create a passage in one location but with different destinations based on some conditions? I have recently figured out how.
16:39:16 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/pwnsdx/status/1040944750973595649
16:39:24 <\oren\> LOL, apple shite
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18:07:02 <wob_jonas> how are you all?
18:09:17 <shachaf> hib_jonas
18:09:36 <shachaf> I'm generally OK, even positive, but also stressed
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18:27:46 <\oren\> breaking news, Pedo Guy sues Elongated Muskrat
18:51:36 <zzo38> Do you like ZZT? I have figured out enough stuff about ZZT (including possible reasons for all of the bugs, although I am not entirely sure, but implementing them in the way I think it works hopefully would work), that probably a free clone can be made.
18:52:50 <zzo38> Also this use of external editor to make all sort of stuff like how they decided to avoid using the screen-generator for BANCstar because it is too limited, so they wrote the codes by themself, the use of external editors with ZZT also avoid the too limited functions of the built-in editor of ZZT.
18:54:24 <zzo38> I made XYZABCDE.ZZT by the built-in editor, but sequel might using ZZTQED instead.
19:01:30 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you know of the SNES puzzle game called Trodderls?
19:01:43 <zzo38> No, I do not know. How is it work?
19:05:24 <wob_jonas> I don't know, but johannhowitzer says in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrbPGNGDLD4 that it's a well-designed puzzle game.
19:05:40 <wob_jonas> I haven't seen any gamplay, but that seems like an interesting recommendation.
19:09:10 <zzo38> The uses of these stuff in ZZT can become much strange, e.g. to make a conditional passage, a program shoots a bullet into a stat water with cycle 1, the stats of the passage, and a direction aiming at another stat water that this time has cycle 1, a passage underneath, and a direction aiming into a wall. These directions are not even directions that can be set using the built-in editor.
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19:25:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in the windows 3 puzzle game Kye, almost anything you can do by editing an ascii level file, you can also do with the built-in editor. But the puzzle file format is quite simple, the map is just a rectangle of ascii characters, each with a fixed tile as its meaning, you can place any tile with the editor, there's a few restrictions like Kye
19:25:45 <wob_jonas> (the player character) has to be in exactly one space but
19:26:20 <wob_jonas> IIRC those are enforced if you edit the ascii file too, and there's a few lines of meta-info per level, like the level name and password and the message that pops up when you enter the level.
19:31:45 <zzo38> There are other programs doing like that too, including some game program I write it does that, although there is no password; you can select whatever level you want
19:32:05 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the level file is plain ascii, I can just read the passwords.
19:32:25 <wob_jonas> that doesn't ruin the game, the passwords aren't really important
19:32:40 <wob_jonas> I mean, that was before we'd just download a list of passwords from the internet, but still
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00:51:51 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57662&oldid=57557 * Qpliu * (+151) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */
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04:53:59 <esowiki> [[If(j)invert()if(l)change()if(q)input()if(t)output(x);]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57663&oldid=39435 * Orisphera * (+117) Added more examples
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08:38:23 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57664&oldid=57662 * YamTokWae * (+607) /* Derivative Ideas */
08:58:39 <shachaf> Sgeo_: thanks in advance for today's olist
09:03:15 <int-e> `nolist
09:03:16 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nolist: not found
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14:09:13 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57665&oldid=57338 * Digital Hunter * (+34) /* Instruction Syntax */
14:10:01 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57666&oldid=57632 * Blacksilver * (+14) ESOPUNK
14:10:40 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57667&oldid=57665 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Instruction Syntax */
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14:33:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Technologic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57668 * Blacksilver * (+224) Created page with "I wonder what would happen if you put the actual lyrics into the language. Maybe it should be hard-coded to quine or something. ~~~~"
14:34:48 <esowiki> [[User:Blacksilver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57669&oldid=57510 * Blacksilver * (+21)
14:38:12 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Help]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57670&oldid=56228 * Blacksilver * (-1) CDO: Extra space in the redirect code block
14:42:57 <esowiki> [[EXAPUNK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57671 * Blacksilver * (+223) #REDIRECT [[ESOPUNK]]
14:43:27 <esowiki> [[EXAPUNKS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57672 * Blacksilver * (+224) #REDIRECT [[ESOPUNK]]
14:46:16 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57673&oldid=57620 * Blacksilver * (+154) /* Commands */ muahaha
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18:16:13 <esowiki> [[Talk:Pxem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57674 * B jonas * (+856) move misplaced comments here, originally by [[User:YamTokWae]] [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_ideas&diff=next&oldid=57662 on 08:38, 18 September 2018] on [[List of ideas]]
18:17:07 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57675&oldid=57664 * B jonas * (-607) move misplaced comments away, to [[Talk:Pxem]], originally by [[User:YamTokWae]] 08:38, 18 September 2018
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01:45:36 <shachaf> So ALGOL 68 had only const values, which could be pointers to stack-allocated refs to allow for local variables. That seems pretty nice compared to the complexity of lvalues in C.
01:45:40 <shachaf> But they had automatic coercion between "ref t" and "t", which seems less nice. On the other hand dereferences everywhere also don't seem great. Is there any language that does something like that better?
02:12:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Technologic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57676&oldid=57668 * JWinslow23 * (+195)
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02:15:50 <shachaf> b_jonas and ais523 are the folks who would knkow about that, I guess
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02:45:02 <int-e> I can't believe this works... welding a cross in Infinifactory: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/if-cross.gif
02:46:22 <shachaf> I haven't infinifactoried so I don't know what's surprising there.
02:47:12 <int-e> the fact that the timing worked out
02:47:41 <int-e> Also I found this by trial and error with not too much hope of getting it to work.
02:48:58 <int-e> I started today; the occasion was that it's on sale at gog.com
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03:41:37 <shachaf> Sgeo_: no olist
03:41:41 <shachaf> heartbroken :'(
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08:21:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, I only know as much about that algol stuff as I heard here
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08:33:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unparseable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57677&oldid=23502 * Orisphera * (+1012) /* I don't understand something. */ new section
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10:08:24 <int-e> shachaf: of course the downside of those games for me is that they trigger the "just one more level
10:08:44 <int-e> " effect, while at the same time allowing one to tweak solutions for a single level forever.
10:09:29 <int-e> I played until 5am in the morning...
10:11:05 <int-e> ...and I'm thankful for flexible office hours :)
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11:31:20 <wob_jonas> In case anyone has the same problem: to restore contacts to phone memory from a VCS file on the Nokia 150 phone, the menu entry only shows up if the VCS file is already on the SD card in the right filename, and the right filename is "/backup.dat", unlike the previous model Nokia 216, on which it was "/Backup/backup.dat".
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14:57:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57678 * Orisphera * (+338) /* Is my example correct? */ new section
15:06:20 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57679&oldid=57678 * Orisphera * (+91) Added something that I didn't add first.
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15:41:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pelirodri * New user account
15:47:18 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57680&oldid=57658 * Pelirodri * (+194)
15:47:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57681&oldid=57680 * Pelirodri * (+1) /* Introductions */
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16:22:05 <esowiki> [[La We]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57682 * Pelirodri * (+2206) Created page with "'''La We''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[Rodrigo Pelissier]] in 2018. It is inspired by [[COW]] and [[Brainfuck]]. It consists of 16 commands, each r..."
16:23:19 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57683&oldid=57666 * Pelirodri * (+13)
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16:42:08 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57684&oldid=57682 * Pelirodri * (+701)
16:42:39 <esowiki> [[User:Pelirodri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57685 * Pelirodri * (+23) Created page with "Creator of [[La We]]."
16:43:29 <esowiki> [[User:Pelirodri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57686&oldid=57685 * Pelirodri * (+59)
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16:50:00 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57687&oldid=57684 * Pelirodri * (+26)
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16:52:05 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57688&oldid=57687 * Pelirodri * (+15)
16:52:14 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57689&oldid=57688 * Pelirodri * (+1)
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17:09:51 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57690&oldid=57689 * Pelirodri * (-1) /* Sample code */
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18:25:21 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheLastBanana * New user account
18:31:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57691&oldid=57681 * TheLastBanana * (+156)
18:32:07 <esowiki> [[Churro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57692&oldid=49671 * TheLastBanana * (-65) Homepage no longer exists, so I've removed it. All of its contents can be found on GitHub anyway.
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19:43:47 <shachaf> Taneb: count me in as no on the milk hth
19:44:06 <shachaf> i don't do that kind of poll
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19:45:08 <Taneb> shachaf: acknowledged
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21:20:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I have a crazy esoteric idea that I might have to expand on and write an article later. UTF-f32 encoding. Encode each Unicode/UCS code point in IEEE floating point format, then store that as bytes as big endian or little endian.
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21:22:15 <wob_jonas> So there are two variants of this, UTF-f32-be and UTF-f32-le. They're very similar to the traditional UTF-32-be and UTF-32-le, but the fun part is that if I calculate right in my head (I'll have to check this and write down the proof later), there's less need for an endianness marker than in UTF-32, because every string is unambiguous between UTF-f
21:22:15 <wob_jonas> 32-be and UTF-f32-le.
21:24:32 <wob_jonas> The only strings that are valid in both are ones made of only NUL characters, and those have the same encoding and meaning in the two (and also in UTF-32). It seems that the other characters (codes 0x00000001 to 0x0010FFFD inclusive) just so happen to have no encodings clashing between UTF-f32-be and UTF-f32-le.
21:29:20 <wob_jonas> There are some genuine clashes between UTF-f32-be to UTF-32-le, and between UTF-f32-le to UTF-32-be, and I'll have to check what other potential and frequent clashes there are with various other formats.
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21:32:40 <olsner> store unicode characters only in NaNs - since those are not numbers they are clearly characters
21:33:36 <int-e> `'
21:33:37 <HackEso> 846) <Phantom_Hoover> it's weird hanging around people for whom the northernmost point in the world is nottingham
21:35:49 <olsner> and you could call it UT-F32 - the placement of the dash clearly distinguishes it from UTF-32
21:37:44 <wob_jonas> olsner: how exactly would you choose the NaNs? It matters how, because for example the UTF-16-le and UTF-32-le byte order marks are valid NaNs in float32 big-endian.
21:38:48 <wob_jonas> (technically the UTF-16-le byte order mark has to be followed by any one more code point to be a valid NaN.)
21:40:51 <Phantom_Hoover> surely you'd put them in 64-bit nans
21:41:29 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: that would waste space, and also has the same problem as above.
21:42:14 <wob_jonas> I can list a lot of potential advantages to UTF-f32 as to how easy it is to handle, although they're all esoteric arguments, I wouldn't recommend the format in the real world..
21:46:27 <olsner> how about UT-F16 though? then for example you can see the approximate unicode block of the characters and tell the sender you don't speak chinese without actually having to decode the exact chinese
21:49:14 <wob_jonas> olsner: that's possible, but it would waste more than two bits per 16-bit word, so I don't understand why it's better than just using UTF-16.
21:49:40 <olsner> UTF-16 needs 4 bytes for things outside the BMP, UT-F16 uses 16 bits for everything
21:50:30 <olsner> for UT-F16 it's a shame that the unicode code points aren't using the negative numbers and all the fractions between 0 and 1 though
21:51:15 <wob_jonas> olsner: it always uses the same 16 bits (0x7FFF) for anything outside BMP. In UTF-16, for a pre-UCS-32 implementation, you could use the replacement character 0xFFFD for anything outside the BMP, which would take the same place.
21:52:22 <wob_jonas> As an added bonus, the replacement character has the same encoding in UTF-f16 as any non-BMP code point.
21:53:06 <olsner> oops, didn't notice the max value for F16 was so low
21:55:23 <wob_jonas> Well, it's not that bad of course. Usually only gods, outsiders, the spirits of dead people, and very powerful wizards venture outside the base material plane, so those characters don't matter much.
21:56:02 <olsner> maybe what we should be thinking about is how to make surrogate float pairs to extend F16 precision when needed
21:56:55 <wob_jonas> I don't see in first place why you think this could be better than UTF-16.
21:58:47 <olsner> oh, better? I was going for worse
22:06:44 <wob_jonas> Ah.
22:07:41 <wob_jonas> Sorry. I generally want to go for esoteric stuff when I have at least some esoteric arguments on how the esoteric stuff is better in some respect than the normal stuff.
22:09:15 <\oren\> I once designed a "character encoding" which encodes the exact shape of the character as a 16x16 bitmap
22:09:20 <wob_jonas> Esoteric arguments can include stuff like "the program is more golfy this way" or "the language is simple so the interpreter for the language is more golfy this way", but lots of other things.
22:09:39 <\oren\> so every character is 256 bits
22:10:41 <\oren\> plus 8 bits for width and other info
22:10:55 <wob_jonas> \oren\: does that you use some sort of canonical values (or set of values) for each supported character from a reasonably usable text, so that the characters can be decoded reasonably easily?
22:11:27 <wob_jonas> Obviously it needn't cover "all characters", because no character encoding ever does.
22:11:37 <wob_jonas> Just some character set usable for some purpose.
22:11:41 <\oren\> yeah exactly
22:12:29 <\oren\> the idea was to make it at least round-trip compatible with all legacy character encodings
22:12:35 <wob_jonas> I see. Do you have a description or something of this somewhere?
22:12:51 <\oren\> hmm, iirc I do
22:12:55 <wob_jonas> "all legacy character encodings"? seriousliy? that's never possible
22:13:13 <wob_jonas> there are tons of those, many barely documented
22:13:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, there are large iconv databases of them and a translation to/from unicode strings, but still.
22:14:02 <\oren\> well because it encodes the shape of the character, all you need is a font which defines the "encoding"
22:15:22 <\oren\> it's a series of 16 "columns", each of which is 16 bits tall, making a 16x16 bitmap, plus a 4 bit width and a 4 bit offset
22:15:50 <\oren\> thus the whole character is 264 bits
22:17:02 <wob_jonas> sure, but "all legacy character encodings" covers like four centuries of semaphore or flag signs, about two centuries of electric telegraphy, and over seventy years of digital computers.
22:17:22 <wob_jonas> nobody has complete documentation of "all legacy character encodings"
22:17:26 <\oren\> ah yeah I was only thinking of digital
22:17:41 <wob_jonas> even only digital is probably impossible
22:17:47 <wob_jonas> there's inadequate documentation
22:18:28 <wob_jonas> though technically almost all character encodings in semaphore, flag signals, electric telegraphy, and electronic computers count as "digital"
22:18:54 <\oren\> hmmmm
22:18:55 <wob_jonas> as opposed to carving letters, handwriting, and printing press
22:19:32 <wob_jonas> you could still say "only ones used with electronic machines" if you wish of course
22:20:21 <wob_jonas> but then, with modern computers, there'll be people representing various old stuff like semaphore signs on a computer, so it's a bit hard
22:21:10 <\oren\> ok. it is compatible with any encoding that has a font in b/w 12 pt (or less), with no duplicate symbols
22:21:40 <wob_jonas> like, there's the amateur radio people who use a computer to encode or decode morse signals in some radio formats that were already possible in the same format with very simple electronic circuits
22:22:46 <wob_jonas> that's better, although "no duplicate symbols" is a bit hard to satisfy with larger modern character sets. very often there are two whitespace characters with the same graphics.
22:23:16 <\oren\> the idea being that it can be used to represent for example original invented alphabets with no need for any "private use area"
22:23:30 <wob_jonas> mind you, \oren\'s font covers a useful large set of characters with supposedly no dupe glyphs
22:24:06 <wob_jonas> \oren\: ok, that sounds reasonable
22:24:44 <wob_jonas> though of course the representation you suppose isn't the only possible one for that
22:25:27 <wob_jonas> one could, say, give a font or more in some existing font format and a formatted text using that font, and embed it to a PDF
22:25:50 <wob_jonas> but yes, that sounds reasonable
22:26:11 <wob_jonas> certainly seems a more useful idea than the 16-bit floating point
22:26:37 <wob_jonas> oh right, you're \oren\. so that's your font.
22:26:44 <wob_jonas> I'm tired.
22:27:02 <wob_jonas> two people with nick starting with o. it's confusing.
22:28:40 <\oren\> I guess in practice, there are other ways to embed bitmaps, for example you could do <img> with src being a base64 encoded targa
22:30:18 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yeah, I use an IMG element (not with a data: URL but whatever) as a way to represent my email address on my homepage. Mind you, I got laxer about that because now it's effectively public and lots of places have it in clear text.
22:31:12 <\oren\> hmmm... what is the smallest overhead uncompressed image format
22:32:06 <shachaf> PPM?
22:34:21 <\oren\> hmm suppose it's a 16x16 b/w image.
22:34:39 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that would depend on what exactly you mean by "uncompressed", and what kind of images you want to represent, especially what range and resolution of colors and alpha in pixels.
22:34:51 <\oren\> "P4\n16 16\n" is a header of 11 bytes
22:34:59 <\oren\> which beat targa
22:35:08 <wob_jonas> if you want "lowest overhead" then you might skirt the boundaries of "uncompressed"
22:35:23 <wob_jonas> by packing bits from different things into a byte and stuff like that.
22:35:31 <wob_jonas> you know, FAT12, but it can get worse.
22:36:36 <wob_jonas> (the cluster allocation next cluster link array in FAT12 specifically. it has 12 bit cluster numbers permuted to bytes in some rather strange order.)
22:37:28 <wob_jonas> (optimized for machines of that time.)
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22:39:45 <wob_jonas> (basically an array of little-endian 12 bit numbers packed into a byte sequence, so nothing ends up aligned to 2-power boundaries)
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03:58:45 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57693&oldid=57690 * Oerjan * (+22) An estimated edit based on the few words Google Translate knew
04:07:21 <oerjan> i seemed to get hit by murphy's law when deleting the reference on wikipedia.
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05:13:41 <\oren\> which beat targa
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07:11:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tork * New user account
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07:19:34 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57694&oldid=57691 * Tork * (+98)
07:20:25 <esowiki> [[+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57695&oldid=51112 * Tork * (-1)
07:23:50 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57696&oldid=57107 * Tork * (-7)
07:25:01 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57697&oldid=57696 * Tork * (+0) has only --> only has
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17:03:57 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57698&oldid=57695 * Blacksilver * (+449) Major formatting overhaul.
17:07:04 <esowiki> [[Talk:Technologic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57699&oldid=57676 * Blacksilver * (+219) Official unofficial features, yay!
17:13:26 <esowiki> [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57700&oldid=57108 * Blacksilver * (+53) TABLES TABLES TABLES (also bolded the first word)
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17:16:13 <esowiki> [[MailBox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57701&oldid=47234 * Blacksilver * (+6) OCD: Bolded first instance of "MailBox"
17:19:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Tautologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57702 * Blacksilver * (+149) Created page with "Are you ''sure'' this isn't just a subset of Lua? -- ~~~~"
17:23:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:SynDev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57703 * Blacksilver * (+210) Created page with "Congratulations! You've invented [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Backus%E2%80%93Naur_form EBNF]. ~~~~"
17:24:23 <esowiki> [[User:Blacksilver]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57704&oldid=57669 * Blacksilver * (+56)
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19:09:21 <esowiki> [[YEOOIIOOIOA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57705&oldid=57447 * Arseniiv * (+100) related phenomena
19:09:47 <arseniiv> random page surfing can be useful!
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2018-09-21
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02:03:04 <sklarr> hello muh dudes and dudets
02:03:50 <sklarr> any golden dawn here?
02:05:39 <oerjan> . o O ( that term is all greek to me )
02:06:06 <sklarr> what do you study my friend?
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02:12:01 <sklarr> hellllooooooo
02:12:04 <sklarr> echo echo echo
02:12:07 <sklarr> is anyone there
02:12:18 <sklarr> am I just shouting into a vast abyss of nothingness
02:12:51 <sklarr> or is there some reflector out there to mirror manifestation?
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02:13:36 <zzo38> I am on
02:13:50 <zzo38> I doubt there is any Golden Dawn here though
02:15:01 <sklarr> I didn't expect so
02:15:06 <sklarr> just threw it out for fun
02:15:09 <zzo38> OK
02:15:24 <sklarr> how are you zzo38?
02:15:29 <zzo38> I am OK
02:15:37 <sklarr> what's your life like?
02:15:41 <sklarr> what do you see?
02:15:46 <sklarr> what's important to you?
02:16:32 <zzo38> I am not sure how to respond, but perhaps I should learn. I write many computer programs, and play GURPS sometimes
02:16:41 <zzo38> I also read many books at library
02:21:42 <zzo38> I see this computer screen right now, though
02:23:00 <sklarr> thanks for the response
02:23:07 <sklarr> I see a compute screen too!
02:23:12 <sklarr> but not yours
02:23:15 <sklarr> hahah
02:23:24 <sklarr> I write computer programs too
02:23:38 <sklarr> what kind of stuff are you writing, what platform are you targeting?
02:27:00 <zzo38> I mainly write C programs on my own computer, which is Linux, although you can try to compile them on other systems too. I have also written programs for DOS, and for Famicom, and other stuff. Some of this stuff I write in C is SQLite extensions. Another is a set of programs for manipulating pictures, called Farbfeld Utilities. And then there are other various stuff.
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02:27:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Technologic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57706&oldid=57699 * JWinslow23 * (+253)
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02:28:47 <zzo38> I have also worked with ZZT and figured out many things about it, and written another external editor for ZZT. And I also have a project Free Hero Mesh, which is a puzzle game engine.
02:29:06 <zzo38> Many of these program you can look at if you are interested in it, is all public domain including source codes.
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08:35:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: crazy idea: esoteric character encoding UTF-f32 "https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09-19.html#lLc"
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09:09:14 <zzo38> A book I read recently asks Pope Francis I to convene Vatican III. But, they ask him to do so in 2015, which has already passed.
09:11:06 <Taneb> Any reason why, or just for the sake of having a council?
09:11:56 <wob_jonas> zzo38: maybe that book was read before that date has passed?
09:12:05 <wob_jonas> s/read/published/
09:13:56 <zzo38> Yes, probably it was published before then.
09:14:06 <zzo38> (Or at least written before then.)
09:14:20 <wob_jonas> At least Pope Francis did become pope before that year.
09:15:50 <zzo38> I do not remember the reason given, but it seem to me that Vatican III would help.
09:17:24 <zzo38> I have already seen your stuff about UTF-f32 above.
09:25:28 <zzo38> (not sure what to comment of that though)
09:29:20 <wob_jonas> Ok. I might try to write it up in detail some time, or more likely just forget it as I give priority to other stuff.
09:30:06 <zzo38> If you do, then we can see if there is any conflicting or not between endianness (other than null characters).
09:33:47 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yup, although you could also easily test that if you wish, since you just have to make a set of the encodings of all character codes from 0x00000000 to 0x0010FFFD inclusive and check for clashes. (About two thousand of those codse are non-characters, but that doesn't matter.)
09:34:04 <wob_jonas> I haven't yet done that test, but will do before writing up the human-readable proof.
09:37:03 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I may test that myself too
09:39:44 <wob_jonas> There's also a proof you can figure out in your head as a human, though you need to know some of the exact tricky details of single-precision floating point encoding, specifically how the biased exponent works exactly, which I had to look up.
09:40:17 <zzo38> I might try to figure out that too, maybe
09:45:35 <wob_jonas> The biased exponent of float formats is confusing to me because some texts define floating point such that the mantissa is between 1 and 2, and some define it such that the mantissa is between 0.5 and 1, so the exponent bias is shifted by 1 between those two. Those are just differences in notation, it shouldn't impact semantics (in correct implemen
09:45:36 <wob_jonas> tations).
09:46:46 <wob_jonas> It does influence floating point formatting to text, such as to hex-floats.
09:48:54 <wob_jonas> (That's for normal numbers, denormals add an extra twist but that doesn't matter here.)
09:59:54 <zzo38> I wrote this program and indeed the only output is zero: "use strict"; const dv=new DataView(new ArrayBuffer(4)); for(let i=0;i<0x10FFFE;i++) { dv.setFloat32(0,i,false); let n=dv.getFloat32(0,true); if(n>=0 && n<0x10FFFE && n===Math.floor(n)) console.log(i,n); }
10:03:03 <zzo38> (And since it is zero in both cases, is not problem)
10:03:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: wait, "use strict" in double quotes to comment it out?
10:03:41 <wob_jonas> oh I see, it's not perl
10:03:46 <wob_jonas> sorry
10:03:59 <wob_jonas> is that javascript?
10:04:24 <wob_jonas> what language (and library if it's not obvious) is it?
10:06:58 <zzo38> Yes, it is JavaScript
10:07:56 <zzo38> (The only non-core function it uses is console.log, which can be used both in Node.js and in HTML)
10:10:10 <wob_jonas> thanks
10:10:23 <wob_jonas> I'll still check myself because why not, but thank you for checking
10:14:42 <zzo38> OK
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11:36:08 <wob_jonas> Hmm. This is a film soundtrack, so it has a high dynamic range. As such, this noisy environment and cheap earbuds don't do it justice. I'll skip this album for now.
11:37:04 <wob_jonas> It also seems an odd one in this youtube playlist by a third party. Doesn't really match the rest.
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13:23:49 <esowiki> [[X:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57707&oldid=56299 * Blacksilver * (-8) Link to [[User:A]] properly
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13:34:42 <wob_jonas> `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2672694/take-2/
13:34:42 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found
13:34:56 <esowiki> [[Insignificant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57708&oldid=53281 * Blacksilver * (+2) Actual pi symbol
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13:40:55 <esowiki> [[FRM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57709&oldid=12627 * Blacksilver * (+7)
13:43:54 <esowiki> [[Mostawesomeprogramminglanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57710&oldid=51034 * Blacksilver * (+4) OCD: Bolded first instance of "Mostawesomeprogramminglanguage"
14:26:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57711&oldid=57336 * Blacksilver * (+81) Added [[ESOPUNK]]
14:27:32 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57712&oldid=57711 * Blacksilver * (+2) ****
14:43:24 <esowiki> [[ESOPUNK/Commands]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57713&oldid=57673 * Blacksilver * (+647) "Equivalent" column
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15:24:29 <wob_jonas> I found out that the Firefox plugin Stylus is a good replacement for Stylish, because the latter has acquired a severe bug because it couldn't keep up with how Mozilla keeps changing Firefox.
15:24:41 <wob_jonas> So I'm mentioning it here in case anyone else is using Stylus.
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15:25:15 <wob_jonas> More info about this particular bug is at https://stackoverflow.com/q/51101566/2200827 , but the Stylus plugin could be useful anyway.
15:26:06 <wob_jonas> These plugins lets you apply custom user CSS to websites locally, thus making specific sites work better if you're willing to write the CSS or finding among ones other people write.
15:36:34 <wob_jonas> What the... oh right, this is the splash screen of the Gimp 2.10.6 release. I was expecting the splash screen of the 2.10.0 and got surprised for a moment.
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15:41:07 <zzo38> Yes that could do. I think new version of Stylish has spyware too, but if you are using a old version of Stylish and Firefox then you can use that (I use old version of Stylish and Firefox)
15:47:41 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Firefox and some of the websites I visit, especially the ones I have to fix with user styles, have more spyware.
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15:49:28 <zzo38> Yes, although many things still can be disabled. Is true to fix many things with user styles; I do that too. Often to remove advertisements, reduce line spacing and padding, reduce font sizes, etc. But once it was to correct the chapter number.
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15:58:43 <wob_jonas> I remove many of the advertisments by a combination of a mental filter and the noscript extension, and there are some ads (especially ones on video sites) that I do notice but don't want to remove them much because
15:59:14 <wob_jonas> the content creators get some revenue from the ads and that makes them produce better content, so in most of those cases I don't yet have enough incentive to remove the ads.
16:00:17 <zzo38> Sometimes if the ads are unobtrusive and don't waste so much bandwidth I will not remove them
16:00:27 <zzo38> But that isn't all that common
16:01:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: note that many people use google ads these days, and I remove most of those from sites not controlled directly by google with noscript.
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16:02:54 <zzo38> Yes, that can be done too
16:03:07 <wob_jonas> so the largest portion of ads that still get to me are ads on video sites (youtube and dailymotion) that either interrupt the video or are shown before the video or cover a portion of the video
16:04:00 <wob_jonas> although I also notice a few of the youtube animated gif ads that are next to the video rather than covering it, specifically the one that really looked like it was advertising a scam. I think I mentioned that one on this channel.
16:05:49 <shachaf> `olist 1141
16:05:50 <HackEso> olist 1141: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:07:00 <wob_jonas> o!
16:09:10 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
16:09:11 <shachaf> twist
16:09:18 <shachaf> they're going to have to do the thing with the thing
16:10:04 <zzo38> Some things won't be fix so well with CSS codes, so GreaseMonkey and moz-rewrite are also used. Such as, adding accesskey attributes or changing link targets is done with GreaseMonkey
16:12:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, some things require reordering parts of the doc-tree, and those are hard to fix with CSS.
16:13:07 <wob_jonas> And in some sites, the DOM might just lack the proper hooks (especially classes) to write a useful CSS.
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17:52:26 <wob_jonas> Wow. I just got a mail from germany, delivering a small item I ordered through ebay.
17:53:26 <wob_jonas> My address (printed on the sheet and visible through the window of the envelope) is rendered almost correctly, including even the non-ascii letters, but they found a new twist on how to modify it.
17:54:47 <wob_jonas> Besides the usual mangling of putting the town and the postal code in the wrong places (which almost all such order services do, even though technically it could be fixed either by some per-country formatting rules or by taking the whole name and address except for the country in a single textarea),
17:55:58 <wob_jonas> they have uppercased the initials of the words in the street address line that should be lowercase.
17:56:28 <wob_jonas> (They didn't uppercase the whole address American style like some sellers do.)
17:56:41 <wob_jonas> I wonder if this is a specifically german thing.
17:56:54 <wob_jonas> or, um, a specifically German thing, really
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18:08:48 <zzo38> I have read that typing the address in Courier font in all uppercase with no punctuation allows the computer to sort it. This is the use I have for a typewriter, which is to type addresses on envelopes.
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19:00:14 <pikhq> I do not know about Canada, but in the US the USPS's equipment is able to read most written addresses, typed or handwritten.
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19:01:17 <pikhq> With relatively few addresses needing to fall back to a human.
19:01:57 <pikhq> (in either case, once the address has been recognized, a barcode gets applied to the mail, and all future sorting is done automatically)
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19:39:41 <ais523> @messages?
19:39:41 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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23:27:18 <wob_jonas> After all those curses about these new nokia feature phones, I'd like to praise them a little: they got sorting the contact list in Hungarian more closer to right than in older Nokias,
23:29:26 <wob_jonas> that is, names starting with Ö or Á get sorted near names starting with O or A (though not at the correct place), and when I type O to filter the contact list to names starting with O, it includes the ones starting with Ö (although I'd prefer if it wouldn't filter, just _seek_ to the first name starting with O or a later letter),
23:30:22 <wob_jonas> thus I no longer need the horrible workarounds of replacing a prefix Á with Aá and a prefix Ö with Oö like I used to do in older phones.
23:30:48 <wob_jonas> Such names aren't common, but there is more than one in my contact list.
23:31:06 <wob_jonas> Including entries I sometimes want to find.
23:32:26 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Did you see the thing I wrote at http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-09.html#lDsb ?
23:33:18 <wob_jonas> zzo38: did you read that from the postal organization in your country and recently? postal organizations actually put recommendations on how to address envelopes corerectly, including for machine sortability, and the kind of guy like you can even read the detailed docs rather than just the quick infosheet. And those recommendations can change occas
23:33:18 <wob_jonas> ionally on a decade scale, because of changes in technology.
23:33:28 <shachaf> I feel like you've said something similar at one point maybe.
23:33:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, perhaps remind me a few days later.
23:33:48 <wob_jonas> oh wait, ignore that
23:34:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, I've seen that. (thought it's a different link)
23:35:03 <shachaf> OK.
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23:35:52 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Qwertyu63 * uploaded "[[File:787138904.png]]"
23:35:59 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 Do you want to design a feature phone with good interface? If you made a serious commitment, then I'd volunteer my time to give detailed specs for the parts of the UI that matter to me, and volunteer my time to test the phone in any state, whether it's early or late, and give feedback. I think I'm a reasonable tester.
23:35:59 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:36:55 <wob_jonas> @tell ais523 Note that I don't volunteer for testing a version control system, because testing a VCS is a daunting hard problem, way over my testing abilities, and even specifying the expected semantics has really hard problems in it.
23:36:55 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:37:09 <shachaf> ais523 is making a version control system?
23:37:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no. he is thinking of making one, and with a guy like him, I actually take that seriously, but he might never do it, because it's hard and he doesn't have infinite time.
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23:38:05 <shachaf> Maybe I'll talk to him about it sometime.
23:38:17 <shachaf> There's a lot of room for improvement in version control systems, if you ask me.
23:38:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: he even has a name for the version control system in the logs, and I gave him some vague instructions on what I expect from a version control system multiple times in chat
23:38:50 <pikhq> I think it telling that git remains the main popular one.
23:38:58 <shachaf> What is it telling of?
23:39:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes there is. I've talked a lot about them on this channel, although I only really know SVN and git, I haven't yet taken the time to get familiar with mercurial, and will probably never do so with darcs or the literally dozens of other free software vcses.
23:39:43 <pikhq> People are willing to suffer through bad and awkward interfaces and fundamentally only really use the one that everyone uses regardless of whether or not it works well for them.
23:40:26 <wob_jonas> pikhq: no, I think it means the sort of people who care about choosing a vcs are willing to suffer through bad and awkward interfaces to get the features they need
23:40:48 <shachaf> Maybe mercurial is the future.
23:40:55 <shachaf> mercurial + facebook's changes
23:41:42 <wob_jonas> its' not because everyone uses it. I do recommend git for certain types of personal projects even if nobody else interacts with it so what everyone uses doesn't matter. for other problems, I recommend svn or no version control at all just raw cp and diff and diff3 and patch
23:42:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: it's possible. that's why I have to look at it in detail, but that takes a lot of time
23:43:52 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Do you think it makes sense to have blocks have input and/or output values?
23:44:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: um, what's the context? a C-like programming language?
23:44:48 <shachaf> Sure.
23:45:02 <shachaf> If your blocks have early exit then exit-with-value makes sense.
23:45:16 <shachaf> And I should probably think of it as something like a restricted continuation.
23:45:27 <shachaf> But should blocks possibly have an input as well?
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23:45:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I like return values, such as in rust, but if it's too hard to fit to your language because of other features, then it's not too important.
23:46:07 <shachaf> I think it's pretty core to some of my language ideas.
23:46:33 <shachaf> I wonder whether maybe the only way to declare variables is to have them as "block input" of sorts.
23:46:41 <shachaf> Or something. Maybe it's going too far.
23:47:26 <wob_jonas> inputs are more difficult, I'm not sure how that would work. would it be like an inline function (lambda) without captures immediately called with arguments, and possibly some restrictions lifted eg. on control transfer from the inner function to the outer body, or scope or liveness stuff?
23:47:36 <wob_jonas> or would it have captures?
23:47:51 <shachaf> It would presumably have captures.
23:47:57 <shachaf> Just like any block in C.
23:48:00 <wob_jonas> I don't really understand how it would work if it could do more than just an inner function, and those must have serious restrictions.
23:48:04 <wob_jonas> yeah, with captures
23:48:13 <shachaf> It can do more than an inner function.
23:48:18 <shachaf> Like early exit, right?
23:48:19 <wob_jonas> I mean, you can pass inputs in local variables anyway
23:49:07 <shachaf> Also this is all considered in the context of a low-level language without random allocation for closures and so on.
23:50:12 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, but then for an inline function that captures the stack frame and never escapes its lifetime, the language could already allow early exits or gotos into the containing function body, even in rust, I don't think there's a strong technical reason not to do that,
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23:50:56 <wob_jonas> it's just hard to implement and you gain little from it, especially if there's variadic stack allocation (rust already has that) in the calling function or other strange things, but you could restrict some of the other strange things.
23:50:59 <shachaf> It would be a bit tricky to implement maybe?
23:51:14 <shachaf> Variadic stack allocation or any kind of destructors, I think.
23:51:29 <shachaf> It would make things that behave a lot like exceptions.
23:51:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: definitely tricky to implement, yes
23:52:46 <wob_jonas> hmm wait
23:53:00 <wob_jonas> yeah, it gets even harder if you pass the function handle to called functions
23:53:05 <shachaf> I certainly don't want something as complicated as exceptions.
23:53:05 <wob_jonas> and that's the useful case
23:53:23 <wob_jonas> yeah, sorry, I didn't think this through
23:53:34 <wob_jonas> it would be too hard to implement, so there's a good technical reason not to do it
23:54:02 <wob_jonas> it's much easier for a block that's called right then and there, with the function reference not going anywhere
23:54:35 <shachaf> The block also just doesn't behave a whole lot like a lambda, I think.
23:54:46 <shachaf> It's possible that a lambda is a special kind of block.
23:55:01 <shachaf> But I don't think I'd want to allow early exit outside its body.
23:56:25 <wob_jonas> yeah
23:58:18 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether I want block arguments or not.
23:58:24 <shachaf> If I do, how would they be passed to blocks?
23:58:37 <Sgeo_> Learning about the C64 makes me appreciate memory protection more. I was confused by memory protection because it seems like modern OSes have APIs to reach into other processes' memory anyway. But with C64, if you have something in the background, it could be incompatible with other programs if some other program happens to want that same memory. Memory protection improves compatibility and avoids accidents
23:59:29 <pikhq> Modern OSes also usually gate those APIs with permissions.
23:59:52 <pikhq> So, while it's possible for a program to reach into another process's memory, it's not possible for a program to reach into *any* other process's memory.
2018-09-22
00:00:11 <shachaf> Should computers have a single address space?
00:00:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, would they just assign the arguments to formal parameters in an explicit formal parameter list (possibly with the types omittable)? if so, then how is that better from just plain local variable declarations with initialization at the inside beginning of the block?
00:00:34 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I guess that would be fine if the machine language was easily relocatable
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00:00:51 <Sgeo_> I wonder if there are any instruction sets like that, only relocatable instructions
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00:01:12 <shachaf> The Mill has a single address space.
00:01:16 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Let me think of some of my use cases.
00:01:20 -!- boily has joined.
00:01:21 <wob_jonas> if it's just C-like lexical scope rules for when the argument names are live, you can just add a multiple declaration statement like in C.
00:01:28 <boily> fungot: nostril.
00:01:29 <fungot> boily: i just want ( as my implementation passes except for that poly-add-term procedure. let's think of fnord awful rc scheme... brown too as well.
00:01:32 <wob_jonas> s/it's/the difference is/
00:01:39 <pikhq> The Mill is also willing to engage in some fairly radical departures from traditional architecture to pull it off.
00:01:43 <wob_jonas> and even a multiple declaration with different types.
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00:02:17 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Do you remember that my "for x in xs" syntax was { x := for(xs); BODY }?
00:02:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes
00:02:43 <shachaf> What should that expand into?
00:03:25 <shachaf> Say it's a C++-style for loop. Not that I really want those, but at least they're established.
00:03:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: for x (xs) { BODY }
00:03:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what do oyu mean by "C++-style for loop"? those have like six twists over C-like for loops
00:04:08 <shachaf> I mean for (auto x : xs) in C++
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00:05:47 <shachaf> I guess it might turn into something like { @break_label; it := xs.begin(); end := xs.end(); @label; exit_if (it == end) @break_label; { @continue_label; BODY }; ++it; repeat @label; }
00:06:17 <shachaf> Except x should be in scope for BODY
00:06:25 <shachaf> That doesn't make sense, hmm.
00:06:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: with the variable that xs.begin() and xs.end() will be assigned to with required same type (older C++) or allowed different types (newer C++)? with auto x expanding to a C++-style reference to the dereferenced values?
00:08:27 <shachaf> There are better for loops anyway, I just wanted something to use as an example.
00:08:29 <wob_jonas> shachaf: rust doesn't allow returns values from for-range loops and do-while loops, because they might run the block zero times, so it's not clear what the normal fall-out-of-block return value should be, unless it's () in which case return values are not useful.
00:08:31 <shachaf> Maybe I should use Rust-style iterators intead.
00:08:57 <shachaf> wob_jonas: That's pretty reasonable. Maybe only for-else style loops should have return values.
00:09:06 <shachaf> I mean early exit values.
00:09:14 <shachaf> But I want early exit values from arbitrary blocks anyway.
00:10:11 <wob_jonas> shachaf: rust-style iterators in your language? aren't they pretty hard to design a language around where they're useful?
00:10:40 <wob_jonas> C++-style or old lua-style may be easier
00:11:24 <shachaf> Isn't a Rust iterator just a thing with a next() method that can return a next value or None?
00:11:33 <wob_jonas> old lua as in the same one as in current lua, which was designed for old lua that didn't have closures, so it lets you passes extra parameters to the iterator callbacks
00:11:53 <shachaf> The whole thing is irrelevant anyway.
00:12:15 <shachaf> The question here isn't how iterators should work, it's how the { x := macro(); ... } thing should work.
00:12:19 <wob_jonas> shachaf: object with next method => pretty much, yes
00:12:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sorry, I'm too tired to contribute anything useful to this now. you might want to ask me later or ask someone else
00:13:47 <shachaf> wob_jonas: The point is, I guess, that { x := XXX; YYY } is like a sort bof lambda/continuation with a hole in the place where it says XXX
00:15:54 <wob_jonas> shachaf: isn't it just a non-lambda control structure that executes the block ones with that lexical variable locally assigned in the block? few languages have that control structure, but it's one you could have.
00:15:59 <shachaf> It's a lot like a block {|x| YYY} applied to argument XXX
00:16:06 <shachaf> When XXX is a regular value, I mean.
00:16:38 <shachaf> When it's not a regular value but a semi-macro-thing, the semi-macro-thing should effectively take that block as an argument, and be able to run it with a value.
00:17:23 <shachaf> Sure, it's that too. But actually using the name "x" is kind of ugly.
00:17:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and is that a golang-like := that declares a new lexical local variable, or a traditional assignment to an existing lvalue or variable (temporary or permanent)?
00:17:39 <shachaf> It's Go-like.
00:18:00 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's easier. no messing with restoring the original value ever.
00:18:12 <wob_jonas> still, definitely can be interpreted as a control structure
00:18:18 <wob_jonas> with no lambda in there
00:18:27 <shachaf> Yes, { x = XXX; YYY } is maybe trickier.
00:18:35 <shachaf> Sure, the lambda is only conceptual, it's not a real lambda.
00:19:03 <wob_jonas> shachaf: which version, the permanent assignment (that's easy, if you already have mutable variables), or the temporary one?
00:19:15 <wob_jonas> the temporary one really should have different syntax though
00:19:25 <wob_jonas> unless this language has a very strange syntax
00:19:48 <shachaf> I'm not concerned with assignment for the moment.
00:20:18 <shachaf> What sort of thing is { x := [hole]; YYY }?
00:20:32 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't think it's a lambda. didn't you already imply that the other control structures like for-each or while or if aren't lambdas, because much less restrictions? if so, then this is even less of a lambda.
00:21:04 <shachaf> Yes, it's not a lambda.
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00:21:10 <shachaf> I only used the word "lambda" as analogy.
00:21:37 <wob_jonas> shachaf: uh, that could be a convenience syntactic sugar I guess, if you mean the value is given somewhere after the closing brace
00:21:40 <shachaf> It's more like a SSA basic block, as described in https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rjsimmon/15411-f15/lec/10-ssa.pdf
00:22:07 <wob_jonas> or it could be a real lambda with that x:=[hole]; declaring an argument
00:22:50 <shachaf> I mean you can write "macro" such that when you write { x := macro(); YYY }, "macro" expands to some code that takes { x := [hole]; YYY } as an argument.
00:23:19 <shachaf> (These aren't really AST-processing macros but something weaker that treats that thing as a black box.)
00:23:21 <wob_jonas> like, in some languages iirc the braces themselves in some syntactic context imply it's a lambda, not called
00:23:26 <shachaf> I don't think I'm communicating very coherently. :-(
00:23:49 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, like I said I'm too tired to really understand anything you say
00:24:36 <wob_jonas> totally different topic:
00:25:19 <wob_jonas> In natural languages, do you know those language prescriptionists that try to proscribe some redundant phrases? I hate them.
00:25:59 <wob_jonas> Not because they cherry-pick by hating some kind of redundancies while liking others. That's OK.
00:26:37 <wob_jonas> Because many of those redundant phrases are actually features: they help in either disambiguation or error-correcting, the latter especially in spoken text in noisy environments.
00:27:20 <wob_jonas> For the first, phrases with a TLA like "ATM machine", "PIN number", "LCD display" are good because TLAs are so ambiguous that you need the redundancy to *disambiguate*.
00:27:53 <shachaf> Your communication would be clearer if you started with the example.
00:28:21 <wob_jonas> And some redundant phrases help error-correct against mishearing. I don't know a good English example that grammar nazis try to proscribe, but in Hungarian, "Hol fekszik helyileg?" is a double redundant phrase for asking "Where?",
00:28:45 <shachaf> I'd much rather proscribe acronyms in the first place.
00:28:52 <shachaf> They're mostly bad.
00:29:42 <shachaf> A bad way to construct words.
00:29:46 <wob_jonas> where "helyileg" is a good circumphrasing and "fekszik" is a qualifier, and the error-correction is useful in spoken text (esp in noisy channel) because "Hol?" is too short alone and easy to mishear,
00:30:14 <wob_jonas> and the alternative "Merre?" would be proscribed by the same grammar nazis for an entirely different reason.
00:30:54 <wob_jonas> shachaf: perhaps, but acronyms still seem sometimes useful, especially in technical jargon
00:31:02 <shachaf> No, they're bad in technical jargon.
00:31:14 <wob_jonas> although mind you, maybe they aren't that useful, because for some reason maths terminology barely has any acronyms, while computing has a ton
00:31:26 <shachaf> If you need to invent a word, there are much better ways to explore word-space than taking the first letter of a bunch of other words.
00:32:53 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, that might be true
00:34:17 <wob_jonas> gnite
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00:34:32 <shachaf> I think one of the reasons people use acronyms is to -- oh, never mind.
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00:44:47 <Sgeo_> shachaf,
00:44:49 <Sgeo_> "● Mainframe experience shows an established
00:44:49 <Sgeo_> market for hardware decimal arithmetic"
00:44:51 <Sgeo_> what?
00:48:59 <shachaf> I don't know?
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01:55:23 <pikhq> Sgeo_: I dunno, but mainframes do *do* BCD arithmetic natively.
01:55:46 <pikhq> Not decimal floats, mind, but certainly decimal fixed-point.
02:19:42 <zzo38> Which mainframes?
02:20:35 <Sgeo_> I don't know, that was a claim from Mill people
02:20:46 <Sgeo_> https://web.archive.org/web/20160303233450/http://www.ac.usc.es/arith19/sites/default/files/SSDAP3_ArithmeticOnTheMillArchitecture.pdf
02:21:46 <zzo38> I know some computers have BCD, not only mainframe computers though
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02:25:08 <zzo38> Someone who wrote a game for NES used base 100 to score the score (rather than base ten). Some implementations of MIX also use base 100 (although it includes the instruction to display the numbers anyways)
02:25:28 <izabera> >score the score
02:26:56 <pikhq> zzo38: It's a typical feature of the System Zs.
02:27:18 <pikhq> (and its ancestry)
02:27:29 <zzo38> OK
02:28:03 <pikhq> It's also exposed (and indeed, is kinda the default arithmetic type) in COBOL.
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02:28:19 <pikhq> So, I'd expect it to be around on any environment where running COBOL was considered important.
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02:52:43 <Sgeo_> COBOL for the Commodore 64 exists.
02:53:01 <Sgeo_> Abacus Software apparently implemented a lot of languages on C64
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06:18:47 <Hooloovo0> base 100 is sort of a thing on a lot of byte-size cpus with support for a bcd-adjust instruction
06:19:04 <Hooloovo0> such as the z80 and I think 6502
06:20:08 <shachaf> Sgeo_: That seems like one of the less interesting things about the Mill, whether or not it's true.
06:20:29 <Hooloovo0> but the HP saturn is one of my favorite CPUs because its native state is BCD
06:21:00 <Hooloovo0> it's a 64-bit cpu designed around 4-bit values
06:21:14 <Hooloovo0> or a 4-bit cpu? idk how this works
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06:23:05 <zzo38> But z80 and 6502 are still binary computers, even though it has BCD
06:24:35 <Hooloovo0> right, I was looking at your reference to a NES game which used base 100
06:24:41 <Hooloovo0> which is 6502
06:25:10 <zzo38> NES doesn't have BCD though
06:25:26 <Hooloovo0> it's been a very long time since an acutal native BCD computer has been around
06:25:53 <Hooloovo0> I had an HP nixie tube time counter for a while until I broke it
06:26:18 <Hooloovo0> but that doesn't quite qualify as a computer
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10:53:37 <esowiki> [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57715&oldid=57487 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Boolean AND */
10:54:17 <esowiki> [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57716&oldid=57715 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Boolean AND */
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13:16:47 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Micnap818a * New user account
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19:06:37 <moony> Probably not new at all, but i figured out a pretty trival way to compile Befunge, if g and p are not used to modify code.
19:07:59 <moony> just build "strings" out of each possible program direction, and compile those individual conditional free strings
19:10:37 <moony> aww
19:10:49 <moony> someone already thought of that. Eh, like i said, probably wasn't new
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19:15:59 <Sgeo_> "Furthermore, our TI columnist, C. Regena, suggests using RANDOMIZE before each call to RND to insure total randomness."
19:16:03 <Sgeo_> https://archive.org/stream/1983-12-compute-magazine/Compute_Issue_043_1983_Dec#page/n49
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19:20:55 <int-e> good to know
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19:22:45 <Sgeo_> That seems weird, redoing a seed?
19:22:53 <Sgeo_> But I don't know TI-99 basic
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19:24:35 <moony> i just realised how fun a SIMD language could be for codegolf.
19:24:38 <moony> Time to make one!
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19:40:14 <int-e> Sgeo_: I was joking
19:41:29 <int-e> Sgeo_: of course it could be that that particular RANDOMIZE incorporates the old seed at least, in which case it likely won't do any actual harm.
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19:52:34 <wob_jonas> I just had a revelation
19:53:15 <wob_jonas> you know how D&D has some of these class-alignment restrictions, where you can't use certain class abilities if you're not in the favored alignment(s) for the class?
19:53:56 <wob_jonas> I thought of them as stupid, mostly because of the Paladin class. That class seemed bad to me because of the striking popular image of the white knight and the black knight, I didn't know why a knight could only fight for good.
19:54:14 <wob_jonas> I still don't know about Paladins, but at least I realized why some class-alignment restrictions actually make sense.
19:54:34 <wob_jonas> There are some in the real world too. And I always knew about them, I just didn't put the two together until this weekend.
19:55:08 <wob_jonas> A leading politician or a leading businessman must be Evil.
19:56:06 <wob_jonas> You can still start a political or business carrer without being Evil, that is, you can take the class, but if you don't turn yourself to truly Evil, then you really won't be able to use the most powerful tools of those trades, and you almost certainly won't rise to the top.
19:56:39 <wob_jonas> That's why all the most successful politicians (presidents, etc) you see are Evil, though some are good at hiding it.
19:57:07 <wob_jonas> At least after the second world war in Europe. Maybe the situation was different back when Ghandi lived, I really don't know.
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19:58:04 <wob_jonas> And the same is true for web designers at the big commercial sites like Facebook. The people developing eg. Facebook and Google must be Evil, or else they lose their best tools and their websites will never be one of the most successful ones.
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19:58:52 <wob_jonas> And all this started to make sense to me this weekend, when I saw the thoroughly Evil web design team of a big website do a Good redesign of the site.
19:59:16 <wob_jonas> That's normal, they're still Evil. Even many Evil politicians sometimes do Good things, and I won't go into the details in politics, but I can tell about the web design case if you want.
20:00:27 <wob_jonas> And the problem is that in this case, their Good act came off as unpopular in the established community of the website, perhaps because of the gut reaction that a redesign of a website must be bad (that's natural), or perhaps because they don't realize
20:01:20 <wob_jonas> how, while this particular redesign takes away some shinies they were used to, it also really helps some potential new users, especially ones with vision problems who use a highly zoomed browser (but not a screened reader), who previously couldn't use the website through no fault of their own.
20:02:06 <wob_jonas> And now there are some new browser capabilities widely available that can help on this, and although web designers usually misuse those new tools for Evil, THIS TIME these particular Evil web designers actually did something Good with them,
20:02:27 <wob_jonas> and used the so-called "responsive design" tools for good and made a website that people with a zoomed browser can actually use.
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20:03:42 <wob_jonas> They made a website that when zoomed to an effectively narrow window, still has all functionality availble, rather than hiding elements essential for navigation or making them inaccessible by having them disappear to outside the bounding boxes or overlap with other controls.
20:05:22 <wob_jonas> And they did it for a totally Evil reason too: in this case the potential gain of new users who'll now be able to use the site is bigger for them, and they don't care about losing a few regulars who are upset about losing their shiny toys like "custom vote buttons" or "starry background" or "fancy header font" (I'm not kidding).
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20:06:05 <wob_jonas> So I wrote a writeup that is mostly true but very selective about what it tells where I try to convince the established users that this one change is Good, while I'm silent about the web designers being Evil because I don't have to tell everything to them.
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20:25:42 <zzo38> Some users could perhaps use programs such as Stylish and GreaseMonkey to alter it on their own computer if they want to do
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21:47:14 <zzo38> Do you know how to address a ARRL radiogram if the intended recipient is not expected to be at home?
21:51:32 <wob_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's what I did
21:52:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in https://scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/q/12100/4918 I share a user-style that you can use in your browser to regain one of those lost features,
21:53:03 <wob_jonas> zzo38: and in https://scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/q/12103/4918 (cross-posted to https://scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/a/12102/4918 ) I explain how the new design is good for the community because it will allow some users to join,
21:53:42 <wob_jonas> specifically I argue that people who are using large zoom in browser but no screen reader because of one of various vision problems will now be able to use the site.
21:54:14 <wob_jonas> This is the part that some new browser features have made possible, like the @media thing and the grid and flex layouts.
22:06:33 <wob_jonas> zzo38: ARRL radiogram => is that a HAM thing? I don't know anything about HAM, and I don't recall anyone on this channel discussing it.
22:08:22 <zzo38> Yes it is a HAM thing, I think.
22:08:39 <shachaf> zzhello38
22:08:43 <shachaf> Oops.
22:08:47 <shachaf> Gotta break that habit.
22:09:43 <zzo38> (I do not need to post such a message at this time, but still would like to know how such thing would be work)
22:09:57 <wob_jonas> hi schachaf
22:10:17 <shachaf> hi wob_njonas
22:11:14 <zzo38> (I am also not sure how someone who is not a amateur radio operator would post such a message. I do know the format, although some fields will have to be filled in by the radio operator)
22:12:06 <wob_jonas> zzo38: are you sure you even need that sort of message?
22:12:47 <shachaf> So are lvalues a good idea?
22:12:55 <shachaf> What languages have something else?
22:13:03 <wob_jonas> couldn't you use some non-HAM thing, such as some postal service thing like a registered letter, a registered letter with returned receipt of delivery, a telegram, a telegram with a return receipt of delivery, etc?
22:13:07 <shachaf> Other than ML and ALGOL 68 and assembly.
22:13:26 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sorry, I don't have time for that discussion now.
22:13:39 <shachaf> The question was for the channel in this case.
22:13:52 <shachaf> Maybe zzo38 has an opinion.
22:17:25 <zzo38> BLISS needs a . operator to read from the specified address, but for writing you do not use that (unless it is a pointer you want to write through).
22:18:18 <zzo38> In Forth, normally a variable name is a constant which represents the address of the variable, and you then use @ to read and ! to write, although it is also possible to do something more like lvalues in C, with some tricks.
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22:20:30 <shachaf> Aha.
22:20:51 <shachaf> Is there anything with the convenience of C lvalues but also the simplicit of explicit addresses?
22:21:56 <shachaf> Maybe .X isn't so bad...
22:22:33 <shachaf> Of course, in practice these aren't real addresses becuase they might just refer to registers.
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22:23:36 <zzo38> That may be the reasonable reason to have lvalues, I suppose, due to because sometimes they might be registers.
22:25:30 <shachaf> I don't think it's much of a reasonable reason.
22:25:38 <shachaf> Even in C things with lvalues have addresses.
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22:26:00 <shachaf> But as long as you don't use those addresses the compiler is free to keep them in registers. So you could do the same thing here.
22:28:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Some implementations of MIX also use base 100 (although it includes the instruction to display the numbers anyways) => the original intention for that was decimal arithmetic, but you can actually easiliy implement that in binary arithmetic with a 7-bit binary byte backing it too
22:29:50 <wob_jonas> zzo38: the NUM and CHR instructions only need to divide by a *constant*, that can actually be implemented very efficiently at the gate level, or at software level on a modern computer with multiplication, and compilers do the latter routinely. it's even easier for an unsigned number like this is.
22:30:33 <wob_jonas> This took me a while to understand. When I read that the NUM and CHAR instructions take so few cycles, I was surprised because I thought they'd have to do like ten divisions on a base-64 MIX. They don't.
22:30:43 <wob_jonas> They can really be that fast in a base-64 or base-anything MIX.
22:32:30 <zzo38> MIXPC always uses one 8-bit byte to store one MIX byte, regardless of what base is used for the MIX program (it supports any number from 64 to 100 for the base)
22:32:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: regardless
22:33:08 <wob_jonas> zzo38: 7 bits are practical because then you can put the 63 bits of a word in a 64-bit integer
22:33:12 <zzo38> shachaf: Ah, OK, although C also has a "register" command (although optimizing compilers will decide itself to use a register or not instead)
22:33:14 <wob_jonas> no wait
22:33:18 <wob_jonas> that's with 6 bits per byte
22:33:25 <wob_jonas> or ... um, I can't count today
22:33:42 <wob_jonas> a 32-bit integer, 31 of its bits for 5 bytes of 6 bits each
22:33:47 <wob_jonas> and 1 byte of sign
22:33:51 <wob_jonas> sorry, that was dumb of me
22:34:28 <wob_jonas> you can use the remaining bit as a warning for cells that have active IO in them, to warn about IO conflicts, or a warning for debugging tracepoints, or anything like that
22:34:49 <wob_jonas> basically a warning that the simulator has to look up in an external table whatever the hell is special about that cell and what it has to do when you access it
22:35:06 <zzo38> Yes, it can be done that way.
22:35:15 <zzo38> I wanted to implement MIX in MMIX some time, too
22:35:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: nice
22:36:09 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't think "register" affects the semantics of a program, though?
22:36:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57717&oldid=52302 * Ais523 * (+376) /* Unused image */ new section
22:37:28 <zzo38> shachaf: I think you are right it does not (actually, I don't know if it interacts with inline assembly code in any way; well, it might depend on the compiler)
22:44:15 <shachaf> zzo38: SML works the same way as BLISS, I think.
22:44:20 <shachaf> Is this way of programming annoying?
22:44:43 <zzo38> I do not think so, but I don't know
22:48:08 <shachaf> I guess you have an assignment operator like = : (Ref A,A) -> ()
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22:50:38 <zzo38> Yes, I would suppose so (or to have like in C where the value is also the result value from the operator)
22:50:57 <shachaf> Sure, that's an option.
22:51:12 <wob_jonas> `? ance
22:51:14 <HackEso> Spelling of -ance/-ence words: advance, science, conference, experience, finance, insurance, licence, performance, reference, assistance, balance, defence, difference, distance, evidence, acceptance, appliance, audience, compliance, importance, influence, instance, intelligence, maintenance, preference, presence, sentence, sequence, substance, violence, absence, accordance, alliance, appearance, assurance, attendance, circumstance, clearance, confidence, c
22:51:22 <wob_jonas> `2 ? ance
22:51:23 <HackEso> 2/2:e, consequence, entrance, excellence, existence, fragrance, governance, guidance, independence, offence, refinance, residence, resistance, romance.
22:58:14 <wob_jonas> base 100 is sort of a thing on a lot of byte-size cpus with support for a bcd-adjust instruction => also the x86_16, and technically still possible on x86_32, but no longer on x86_64
22:59:30 <wob_jonas> x86_16 has SIX decimal adjust instructions, four for one digit in a byte, two for two digits in a byte, for which there's a special flag storing the carry from bit 3 to bit 4 in byte additions and subtractions
22:59:51 <wob_jonas> x86_32 inherited these, but by the time x86_32 got popular, people no longer used them much I think
23:00:04 <wob_jonas> also the 8087 has a decimal float format
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23:25:04 <wob_jonas> shachaf: re "they're going to have to do the thing with the thing",
23:25:12 <wob_jonas> only just read OOTS #1141, I was so busy. Now I see why some people were so excited about the current OOTS storyline. Some of them effectively guessed the ending of #1141 a few strips before. And someone asked exactly about whether that statement in the last but one panel was true. I thought it wasn't. It is, or so the guy in this strip claims.
23:25:37 <wob_jonas> s/ only just/I&/
23:26:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I don't understand what thing you say they'll have to do
23:26:52 <shachaf> "the thing" = the dark one
23:26:57 <shachaf> the second thing
23:27:02 <wob_jonas> yes
23:27:08 <wob_jonas> that part is clear
23:27:25 <wob_jonas> either him or the one they don't speak of
23:28:31 <wob_jonas> but what's the first thing? reinforce?
23:28:56 <wob_jonas> tear down this one and make a new with him?
23:29:21 <wob_jonas> I really can't guess
23:29:42 <wob_jonas> can you give a hint of what you're thinking?
23:30:25 <wob_jonas> without spoilers, there are other o fans here, or in priv
23:34:15 <shachaf> Which one they don't speak of?
23:34:22 <shachaf> I don't know if I really had anything coherent in mind.
23:34:45 <wob_jonas> shachaf: also, is his ity supposed to be the shortest wavelength one, or are they actually more like equal strength and combining to a more powerful whole, like the five colors of M:tG (but without the different moralities implied), or like Captain Planet from the five rings, or
23:35:37 <wob_jonas> even guaranteed to be symmetric by some physics invariance law like the three colors of quarks, or perhaps were originally symmetric but the field of the one they don't speak of caused spontaneous symmetry breaking by banning all the green ity?
23:36:02 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the gods don't speak of the tangly one to mortals. the guy said that a few strips ago.
23:37:12 <shachaf> I don't know why you expect quarks or even wavelengths to exist in this world.
23:37:33 <wob_jonas> shachaf: #1137 seventh panel
23:38:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf: not quarks specifically, I'm just asking if the ities are equal, or were equal until the tangly one killed them, or if they were originally ranked by strength
23:38:41 <wob_jonas> the quark colors is just a stupid analogy, I only said that because it's clear that these aren't really about the visible colors either, just like the M:tG colors aren't either
23:38:56 <wob_jonas> the colors are just a convenient representation for the comic strip
23:39:41 <wob_jonas> you know, as in "pretty pictures" #13
23:40:16 <wob_jonas> the guy is also doing the pretty pictures thing for plot exposition in #1141
23:40:51 <wob_jonas> I'm not saying that he's using the same bard ability, just that he also creates pretty pictures for plot exposition
23:42:03 <wob_jonas> and, you know, the dark one has different origins, so maybe his ity is different
23:42:26 <wob_jonas> even if the original four ities were equal, this one could be different
23:42:54 <wob_jonas> the analogy with the purple color Mark says he was trying for M:tG Future Sight is hard to avoid too
23:43:24 <wob_jonas> ah no
23:43:28 <wob_jonas> it's probably not that
23:43:41 <wob_jonas> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23383311 is a more plausible explanation of the purple ity
23:44:25 <wob_jonas> still, the spontaneous symmetry breaking analogy is real
23:44:38 <wob_jonas> I don't think the tangly one actually cared which color he killed
23:44:40 <wob_jonas> it was random
23:45:13 <wob_jonas> it really sounds like the lack of green ity was like spontanous symmetry breaking in physics
23:45:30 <wob_jonas> because it's hard to believe that the four itites weren't equal, regardless what the fifth is and whether there could be more than five
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23:58:38 <wob_jonas> Oh! Another SMBC that plays on the same thing as xkcd. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/vas https://www.xkcd.com/644/
2018-09-23
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00:05:46 <ais523> @messages-loud
00:05:47 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 1d 29m 47s ago: Do you want to design a feature phone with good interface? If you made a serious commitment, then I'd volunteer my time to give detailed specs for the parts of the UI
00:05:47 <lambdabot> that matter to me, and volunteer my time to test the phone in any state, whether it's early or late, and give feedback. I think I'm a reasonable tester.
00:05:47 <lambdabot> wob_jonas said 1d 28m 51s ago: Note that I don't volunteer for testing a version control system, because testing a VCS is a daunting hard problem, way over my testing abilities, and even specifying
00:05:47 <lambdabot> the expected semantics has really hard problems in it.
00:06:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: I don't think I can reasonably make a serious commitment to anything extra at this point, I'm finding it hard enough just to keep up with my existing projects even cycling through them and putting some into indefinitely-delayed status
00:06:42 <ais523> the idea is interesting though
00:08:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: it doesn't have to be now. the version control system isn't now either, nor are the ayacc improvements or the aimake3
00:08:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: they can all wait
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00:08:42 <wob_jonas> and I don't expect you to do this, I'm just trying to grab any thin chance
00:09:00 <ais523> you mean aimake4?
00:09:07 <ais523> aimake3 is what NH4 uses at the moment
00:11:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: aimake4 then
00:11:27 <wob_jonas> some of these you might never make
00:11:39 <wob_jonas> you're not the one with infinite time for projects like zzo38
00:11:49 <ais523> like 80-90% of the time when I can get around to doing programming at the moment I spend on my day job
00:12:07 <ais523> half the time I just don't seem to have the energy to do anything creative, I just consume, and it's really annoying
00:12:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. it's much worse for me. I feel like I can barely get anything hobby done.
00:13:16 <ais523> it's probably also worth a disclaimer that my idea of a good interface is often very different from everyone else's :-D
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00:15:19 <shachaf> ais523: Did you see my question about languages without lvalues? Seems like the sort of thing you'd know about.
00:15:38 <ais523> shachaf: no, I haven't fully logread yet
00:15:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure.
00:15:44 <ais523> I was just skimming and haven't even skimmed the whole thing
00:16:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: and in the case of aimake, that difference means I'd never use the thing. I can see why you need it for nethack in particular, but that's a difficult project.
00:16:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: and as for uncursed, you made it for nethack too, that shaped its interface.
00:16:55 <wob_jonas> for ayacc, you were following an existing interface mostly
00:17:04 <ais523> what difference? the way I view interface?
00:17:12 <ais523> also uncursed1's interface is /very/ similar to that of curses
00:17:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: right, because that's what's useful for nethack
00:17:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: the difference is that you want aimake to figure out all the messed up dependency loop on itself, by inspecting the symbols in the binaries and all that sort of black magic.
00:18:03 <wob_jonas> I don't want such a make system for sane projects.
00:18:12 <wob_jonas> but you said you used it for new projects too
00:18:16 <wob_jonas> so it's not *only* for nethack
00:18:21 <wob_jonas> you actually seem to like that black magic
00:19:34 <wob_jonas> I like ayacc, but it has mostly yacc's interface, with some improvements
00:19:41 <wob_jonas> I might use ayacc in the future
00:19:57 <wob_jonas> but I had already liked yacc before I ever saw ayacc
00:20:25 <wob_jonas> and I hate how people abuse rec-descent parser generators and think it's a silver bullet
00:20:33 <wob_jonas> they come up with terrible syntax
00:20:51 <wob_jonas> ayacc helps you ke
00:20:56 <wob_jonas> ep syntax sane
00:21:02 <wob_jonas> by forcing it to be LR
00:23:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: and in several of your esolangs, your idea of the interface is that you don't provide a concrete syntax, you give the semantics and tell what information will have to be specified in the program and input (Incident is one of the exceptions)
00:23:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: that I think is one way of thinking of a user interface, and I have no problem with it
00:24:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: git's bad interface is a problem, but low-level stuff for which I can make my own interface suits me normally
00:24:26 <wob_jonas> I'm a computer guy, I can work with making my own interface that is shaped what I like
00:24:37 <wob_jonas> even for git I have custom aliases
00:24:46 <ais523> I like the black magic in aimake because it's something that a computer should be able to do better than a human
00:24:55 <ais523> at least, /I'm/ no good at it
00:25:23 <wob_jonas> ais523: build systems are hard, and everyone has different ideas about it. I don't like any of them.
00:25:42 <wob_jonas> but I know it's a genuinely hard problem. I don't even know what a good build system would look like.
00:25:50 <shachaf> I have ideas about that are good.
00:25:54 <shachaf> But they're incomplete.
00:25:58 <wob_jonas> note even as much as for the vcs, where I have ideas which might be contradictory
00:26:05 <shachaf> One day I'll figure out how to do it.
00:26:05 <wob_jonas> I mean, mutually incompatible
00:26:20 <wob_jonas> but I don't think I need a build system, not for my projects
00:26:21 <shachaf> wob_jonas: What do you think of bazel-style build systems?
00:26:30 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I have no idea what bazel-style means
00:26:39 <zzo38> I just use shell scripts. Each source file contains the commands to compile itself, and then if the program has multiple modules that needs to be put together, that will be another shell script to put all of them together. (For example, look at what is done in Free Hero Mesh.)
00:26:55 <shachaf> wob_jonas: In the style of Google's build system, bazel.
00:27:11 <shachaf> (Which Facebook cloned and called Buck, and Twitter cloned and called Pants, and some other people also cloned.)
00:27:50 <zzo38> This is build system of Free Hero Mesh: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/artifact/5fc19466c4f1bbc5
00:28:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: I have some ideas of what a good build system /isn't/
00:28:40 <ais523> e.g. it isn't imperative
00:28:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, ideas of what it isn't are easy
00:28:55 <ais523> right
00:28:58 <ais523> that lets you narrow things down
00:29:08 <ais523> the imperative format of Windows installers makes it very hard to get uninstalling right
00:29:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: there are lots of existing build systems, work with a big project that uses any of them and you'll notice why the build system is unsuitable for that project
00:29:21 <wob_jonas> I've done that several times
00:30:03 <wob_jonas> the build system was chosen by others, which is fine for me because luckiliy they also maintained the build system configuration, I only had to report to them that it's not working
00:30:45 <ais523> I don't think C-INTERCAL's build system is unsuitable for it
00:31:04 <wob_jonas> at one point, the build system actually didn't know about a necessary build order dependence, but apparently nobody else complained that sometimes when you do a clean build at the wrong moon phase, you have to rerun the build process after an error
00:31:05 <ais523> except inasmuch as it's unsuitable for anything
00:31:18 <wob_jonas> s/dependence/dependency/
00:31:48 <wob_jonas> the middle part is that the build order was nondeterministic, and sometimes incorrect, building against the dependency that would have been required, so the compilation either failed or used an old version of the object file
00:32:05 <wob_jonas> in a clean build it failed, but people are lazy and don't want to wait for a clean build
00:32:13 <wob_jonas> a clean build took a lot ot fime
00:32:14 <wob_jonas> time
00:32:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: this is why I wrote aimake1
00:32:26 <wob_jonas> ais523: right
00:32:34 <ais523> because I had this sort of screwup in NH4 and couldn't find it
00:32:41 <ais523> back then I was more productive, a build system only took about 24 hours or so to write
00:33:37 <wob_jonas> anyway, in *that* case, the problem wasn't the build system, the problem was that whoever configured it worked *around* the build system. there was actually a good practice on how to use the build system, and if they did that, everything would have been easier. but no, they worked it around with custom rules.
00:34:41 <wob_jonas> rules that made the system worked incorrectly when if they had just used what the build system already provided, almost none of those custom rules would have been necessary, and they could not have forgotten a dependency, because the build system would know it automatically from the other configuration, when they tell the build system what to link
00:34:41 <wob_jonas> with what, instead of working it around
00:35:04 <wob_jonas> but then the devs doing that were young and had to learn.
00:36:34 <zzo38> Maybe a better way might be one program takes from stdin several lines of a format like "file : dependencies : command" and if any of the dependencies are newer or if the file does not exist, execute that command; if the return code is nonzero or if the file still does not exist or still older than some dependencies then it fails. And then you can call it from a shell script with a heredoc.
00:36:45 <zzo38> Would that be better?
00:38:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: for git, my main trick is an alias called git switch, which calls checkout with a double-dash after the argument so it can only switch to a different HEAD but never do the other thing git checkout does, and also prints the previous HEAD before that
00:40:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: I also have some aliases for (git status -bs "$@") and (git log --topo-order -c --name-status "$@") and (git log --topo-order -c -p "$@")
00:40:37 <wob_jonas> and for (git diff --staged "$@")
00:41:01 <wob_jonas> there's a few more but those are less generally useful
00:42:05 <wob_jonas> also, I figured out that the git worktree feature is very useful
00:43:19 <wob_jonas> SVN not providing enough low-level hooks also bothers me.
00:44:23 <wob_jonas> One particular example is this, for sparse checkouts. The working tree has a trit of status for every directory checked out, which tells how new files in that directory downstream from the repo will be treated when you update the directory.
00:46:23 <wob_jonas> The state of that trit can be "infinity" which means that everything will be checked out recursively and every subdirectory will have its state set to "infinity", the "empty" state means that new files won't be checked out on an update, and the "immediates" means that files and subdirectories will be checked out but the contents of those new subdir
00:46:23 <wob_jonas> ectories won't and their status will be set "empty".
00:46:39 <wob_jonas> (There's actually a fourth state, "files", but that's irrelevant now.)
00:46:57 <wob_jonas> But the problem is, with the command-line interface, you can't directly change the state of a directory without side effects.
00:47:59 <wob_jonas> You can use svn up --set-depth=infinity to set the state to infinity, but that has the side effect of checking out every existing file under the directory recursively. If it doesn't have a local copy of such a file yet, then it has to be downloaded.
00:48:14 <zzo38> (Oops I forgot, if a file itself has dependencies, also check if those dependencies need resolved too)
00:49:19 <wob_jonas> You can later fix all that by excluding some of the checked out files or setting their depth, in a depth-last order, but you still waste a lot of unnecessary bandwidth and disk space, which defeats one of the main uses of sparse checkouts.
00:50:22 <wob_jonas> Similarly but less bad is reducing the state to "empty" or "files", which has the side effect of uncheckouting all the existing files recursively too, except for the immediate children for "files".
00:51:51 <zzo38> (Also, if a filename is in brackets then it is not a real file, but rather is internal and if it believes it can compile and and the command is executed successfully then it is now satisfied, but initially it isn't)
00:51:59 <wob_jonas> Lowering the state is better than raising, because you can at least check out any files you want again without redownloading, a pristine copy still remains in the cache of the working copy until you run a certain command to clean them up,
00:52:11 <wob_jonas> but still it's a nuisance because you have to do the checkouts again.
00:52:39 <wob_jonas> So setting the states for new files requires you to issue a complicated set of commands recursively for all descendant files in the worst case.
00:53:06 <wob_jonas> I haven't yet checked if the C api can do better, I will look, but in at least one other case even the C api was limited.
00:54:11 <wob_jonas> And it gets much worse if you combine sparse checkout with modules (externals, like git submodule)
00:56:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the Incident lexer, if the program is "ab", then is the empty string that occurs three times a token?
00:57:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: no
00:57:11 <ais523> nonempty tokens only
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00:57:13 <ais523> clever, though
00:57:16 <ais523> (also I don't think this could ever matter)
00:57:29 <ais523> actually might it output a few bits?
00:58:09 <oerjan> hi ais523
00:58:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: how does execution start in Incident? which command runs first and what's the state of the stack?
00:58:39 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57718&oldid=57693 * Pelirodri * (-23)
00:58:41 <wob_jonas> oh wait, I should read the full description in the calesyta submission, not the wiki page
00:58:46 <wob_jonas> I think it tells the complete rules
00:58:55 <ais523> hi oerjan
00:59:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: start of the program; each command has its own stack, initially empty
00:59:59 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57719&oldid=57718 * Pelirodri * (+1)
01:00:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: what does "start of the program" mean? the first command in the source?
01:00:25 <wob_jonas> to me "start of the program" is tautological
01:00:39 <wob_jonas> it means however the language starts the program
01:00:45 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57720&oldid=57719 * Pelirodri * (+0)
01:00:55 <wob_jonas> which could be in main in C (though actually it does a few things before main)
01:01:18 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57721&oldid=57720 * Pelirodri * (+4)
01:01:38 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57722&oldid=57721 * Pelirodri * (+7)
01:03:17 <wob_jonas> I mean, this is an esolang. For all I know it could, say, start at some command where the second occurence is close to the third but the first occurance is very far, maybe the command with the highest ratio of distances is taken with some tie-breakers or something.
01:03:25 <wob_jonas> counting in token occurences of course, not in bytes
01:04:06 <wob_jonas> "Execution of an Incident program starts with the first command incidence in the sequence of commands that the program was parsed into"
01:04:12 <ais523> wob_jonas: leftmost end of hte program
01:04:16 <wob_jonas> (from the report) yeah
01:04:18 <wob_jonas> I found it
01:04:36 <wob_jonas> that language is devilish
01:04:55 <esowiki> [[Chipish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57723 * Galaxtone * (+3234) Thrown together something quickly, needs some work.
01:05:01 <wob_jonas> it's a pity that calesyta disappeared like the bancstar interpreter
01:05:59 <esowiki> [[Chipish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57724&oldid=57723 * Galaxtone * (-1) All better.
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01:14:41 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you ever wonder if it was your language that they didn't cope with, and that's why they disappeared? or are you more psychologically stable than to even consider that?
01:15:04 <ais523> wob_jonas: if they can't cope with my languages they shouldn't be running an esolang competition :-D
01:15:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah
01:20:39 <wob_jonas> oh, that reminds me
01:21:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: you said you're busy, that means you haven't had time to write more than those two pages of the M:tG turing machine construction, right?
01:21:21 <wob_jonas> the one based on the tournament deck
01:21:28 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
01:21:33 <ais523> although that's not based on busyness
01:21:46 <ais523> so much as needing a program as an example and not being sure what to put there
01:22:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's missing more than just a program as an example, isn't it?
01:22:10 <ais523> as it should ideally be formally undecidable, and less ideally, something where we don't know what the result is
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01:22:38 <ais523> also, the M:tG tournament rules changed recently, under the new rules the game is infinitely long and players get slow play warnings until they're disqualified
01:23:42 <moony> Making a golflang. It's getting somewhere. No interpreter yet, but i've defined about 400 of all 1024 instructions, so i'm doing attempts on some codegolf problems to try it out
01:24:51 <wob_jonas> meanwhile, I was in my elements in the last few days, trying my hands at manipulation, evil lord style. I don't know if it will be successful, but I sure enjoyed it. I explained about it before you entered the channel.
01:25:03 <wob_jonas> shachaf: about the turing machine?
01:25:20 <shachaf> Turing machine?
01:25:20 <wob_jonas> sorry, ignore that line
01:26:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, I was golfing SVG. not quite golfing, I can spare a few characters, but I was reducing its size signidicantly while trying to keep the rendered appearance the same at any zoom level in the particular bounding boxes of the views used.
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01:26:53 <wob_jonas> the easy part was removing objects that weren't in the viewports I used. but even then the SVG was too long.
01:26:59 <wob_jonas> then I did black magic.
01:27:21 <wob_jonas> I hand-optimized it by replacing some objects with clones and transformed clones of other objects
01:27:29 <wob_jonas> and recolored clones too
01:27:51 <wob_jonas> (well, colored clones technically, it's cloning an object that inherits the fill from the parent)
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01:28:07 <ais523> moony: I'm making a golflang atm too!
01:28:12 <ais523> I like Brachylog but its syntax annoys me so much
01:28:17 <ais523> so I'm trying to make one that's similar but has a golfier syntax
01:28:22 <wob_jonas> wait what?
01:28:28 <wob_jonas> YOU'RE making a golflang?
01:28:39 <wob_jonas> you have had enough of Jelly?
01:28:40 <wob_jonas> great
01:28:48 <ais523> Jelly's fine
01:28:52 <ais523> but it's not revolutionary
01:28:56 <wob_jonas> sure
01:29:07 <ais523> Brachylog /is/ revolutionary, or at least, it changed the way I think about programming
01:29:08 <wob_jonas> so you want a revolutionary one?
01:29:17 <wob_jonas> I'll have to look at Brachylog then
01:29:19 <moony> ais523, i decided to use 10-bit instructions, that can potentially take a n-bit constant afterwards.
01:29:31 <ais523> moony: I'm using 5/6-bit instructions
01:29:53 <ais523> it's arguable which, the sixth bit is either part of the instruction or part of the context depending on how you view things
01:30:00 <moony> Result, of course, is instructions like these: https://hastebin.com/akesubemen.nginx
01:30:04 <ais523> Brachylog-alikes don't need many instructions
01:30:27 <ais523> that just shows as a blank page in my browser
01:30:32 <ais523> does it need JS or something? (for a /pastebin/?)
01:30:37 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, if this isn't something "human-readable" like Jelly or golflang, then why do you even have to use constant number of bits or whole number of bits, rather than arithmetic coding with an optimized frequency table?
01:30:39 <moony> RIP, leme try a diffrent paste site
01:30:51 <ais523> wob_jonas: it is human-readable
01:30:54 <wob_jonas> ais523: don't tell me you can't write an arithmetic coder and decoder.
01:30:56 <wob_jonas> oh
01:31:12 <wob_jonas> it's human-readable with 6-bit commands? for what kind of humans?
01:31:26 <ais523> humans which work on the base64 representation of the source
01:31:28 <wob_jonas> I mean, sometimes I do strange things like write hex constants
01:31:39 <wob_jonas> oh
01:31:44 <wob_jonas> base64
01:31:52 <moony> Here just have the entire list: https://ptpb.pw/BbXF
01:31:53 <wob_jonas> I see
01:31:59 <ais523> that one works
01:32:20 <moony> well duh, it's just a raw text file. Course it works :P
01:32:21 <wob_jonas> but why does a golflang has to be human-readable? why wouldn't you just use a tool to encode or decode it?
01:32:30 <moony> wob_jonas, That's what i'm doing.
01:32:42 <wob_jonas> some people already use complicated tool to write C++ code, because they write it so unreadable they couldn't read it otherwise
01:32:42 <pikhq> Arguably if you allow for such a tool, you might as well just use lzma.
01:33:13 <wob_jonas> basically they put typos in function names, and then never once notice because they only ever type it once and choose it from some gui autocomplete list the rest of the time
01:33:16 <wob_jonas> even with obvious typos
01:33:24 <wob_jonas> I'm not even kidding, those are my ex-colleages
01:33:28 <moony> lol
01:33:31 <wob_jonas> ex-coworkers
01:33:39 <ais523> I don't believe golfing languages have to be human-readable, but if they're close to a human-readable syntax already, may as well go all the way
01:33:54 <wob_jonas> or at least they don't notice until it's too late to change the interface because it's already committed
01:34:12 <moony> Yea, mine encodes pretty simply, i haven't settled on short names for the various instructions yet, so this example will have to do:
01:34:25 <wob_jonas> it's not like I never make typos, but I type almost every new non-short identifier more than once, or type ones that are already used in the library, and if I make a typo once, then the program won't compile
01:34:26 <zzo38> I think that it does not have to be, but just because it does not have to be does not mean it is not allowed to.
01:34:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok
01:34:44 <moony> I_Unsigned8bitC 01010000 I_Repeat2DSquareC 01010000
01:35:03 <moony> An encoder could shorten that slightly to I_Unsigned8bitC010 10100 I_Repeat2DSquareC 01010000
01:35:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think non-eso languages should be human readable, and if you write code for which you need fancy gui tools and syntax highlighters to understand, then you're doing it wrong
01:35:17 <ais523> moony: that's 33 bits, right?
01:35:28 <wob_jonas> I can sort of understand the opposite view, which says that you can't get naming right and the gui tools help do mass-renaming of identifiers when you got the name wrong, but still
01:35:32 <moony> yup. 33 bits for a 10x10 square of asterisks
01:35:43 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57725&oldid=57722 * Oerjan * (+22) Further evidence that my edits are correct are at http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Chilean (warning: exactly what you think it is).
01:35:45 <ais523> now I'm wondering how that compares to other languages
01:35:51 <moony> i already checked
01:36:02 <moony> it does really well against others on codegolf.stackexchange.com
01:36:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: anyway, thanks for mentioning this
01:36:15 <wob_jonas> TODO to self: look at brachylog
01:36:18 <wob_jonas> I really have to leave now
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01:36:52 <moony> shortest i've seen so far that isn't mine is 6 bytes
01:37:09 <ais523> in Jelly that's going to be 6 bytes I think
01:37:11 <moony> (Which goes to a Pyth answer by orlp)
01:37:17 <ais523> hmm, can't you do it in 5? let me try this
01:37:29 <zzo38> I just write C codes with vim and without using the autocomplete and syntax highlighting (actually I am using the syntax highlighting feature of vim, although I am using it not to mark what is what in a C code, but rather to mark trailing spaces, and spaces between tabs, in any file)
01:37:29 <moony> 3 1/8th bytes for the win
01:37:39 <moony> s/3/4/
01:38:03 <moony> also, what would a better name for this instruction be: I_Base10League = 384, // Returns the "league" a number is in. I.e. if it's less than 1000 but more than 100, the return value is 100.
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01:38:17 <ais523> gah, no, because Jelly's "repeat last instruction" repeats the 5, not the "times 5"
01:38:47 <ais523> moony: what are the boundaries? 100-999 or 101-1000?
01:38:58 <ais523> either way, that's basically just log+floor/ceil+exponentiate
01:38:59 <moony> 100 to 999
01:39:49 <ais523> the way I think about this sort of thing is that instead of having to come up with all these builtins manually, a language is more expressive if you can build your statements out of individual concepts
01:39:53 <ais523> "on base-10-logarithm, floor"
01:40:20 <moony> yea, i agree. But handpicking can also do quite a bit
01:40:35 <ais523> I don't like handpicking builtins much, at least not when there are so many
01:40:39 <ais523> it's why I hate Mathematica
01:40:52 <ais523> it's basically a very inefficient pattern-matching core language + loads of builtins that do all the real work
01:41:08 <moony> i'm capped at 1024 builtins. Is that too many for you? :P
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01:41:23 <moony> certainly less than what mathematica has haha
01:42:28 <ais523> the goat incident was a good example
01:42:42 <ais523> someone set a challenge "given a photograph of a goat, determine if it's the right way up or upside-down"
01:42:47 <ais523> turns out Mathematica had a builtin for it
01:42:56 <moony> I_ListSquareNums I_FilterInstanceOf, 2 1/2 bytes, should solve https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/82565/return-the-integers-with-square-digit-sums Yea i saw that
01:43:07 <ais523> moony: not quite
01:43:12 <ais523> this is about square /digit sums/, not square numbers
01:43:15 <moony> err
01:43:16 <moony> right
01:43:40 <ais523> so you need to put the whole "sum digits, then test for squareness" inside the filter
01:43:44 <ais523> I hope you have a good lambda/block syntax
01:44:06 <moony> I_SumOfDigits I_ListSquareNums I_FilterInstanceOf 3 3/4 bytes.
01:44:20 <ais523> so what's the scope of filter-instance-of?
01:44:52 <moony> also, i do. It's pretty simple bracket tricks. Also, I_FilterInstanceOf is selfcontained. It doesn't need a scope.
01:45:16 <moony> the filter function in this case is, well, I_IsInstanceOf
01:45:16 <ais523> it does; suppose your first command there was something vectorisable
01:45:28 <ais523> like, say sum-of-digits vectorises
01:45:48 <ais523> then you could either have I_SumOfDigits (I_ListSquareNums)I_FilterInstanceOf
01:45:58 <moony> ais523, it *is* something vectorizable. That's what sum-of-digits is doing. It's checking if the sum of the digits contains anything from I_ListSquareNums
01:45:59 <ais523> or (I_SumOfDigits I_ListSquareNums)I_FilterInstanceOf
01:46:17 <moony> so in this case, it'd be I_SumOfDigits (I_ListSquareNums)I_FilterInstanceOf
01:46:22 <ais523> the former returns the digit sums that are square, the second the numbers that have square digit-sums
01:46:32 <ais523> and the latter is what this specific challenge is asking for
01:46:44 * moony confused himself
01:46:55 <ais523> for example, see my Brachylog v2 solution, the { } show the range of what's being filtered
01:47:42 <moony> I just chose to copy a jelly-like tree structure, with subroutine blocks thrown in for compactness usage. Leme think, i'm confusing myself
01:48:12 <moony> I_FilterInstanceOf(I_SumOfDigits, I_ListSquareNums) is how that'd look in C style
01:48:24 <moony> so...
01:48:41 <ais523> except that that's not what the problem is asking for
01:48:49 * moony thinks
01:49:12 <ais523> you can't solve the problem with those specific primitives at all, in fact
01:49:19 <ais523> because they're too specific
01:49:21 <moony> aaaa.
01:49:40 <moony> thanks. Leme clear my head and go doublecheck some notes
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01:52:21 <moony> So, I_FilterInstanceOf checks if I_SumOfDigits.result contains any values from I_ListSquareNums (A constant, lazy list). For sake of sanity, I_ListSquareNums has special handling to make sure the check doesn't go on forever. (Marked as organized by size.)\
01:52:24 <moony> hm.
01:52:33 <moony> i must be misunderstanding the problem
01:53:10 <ais523> the problem is, for any list of integers, return each element of the list whose digit-sum is square; don't return the sum, return the original element
01:53:31 <ais523> in this case, if you convert the list to a list of digit-sums, then filter it, you can't get back at the original list whose elements you summed to make the digit-sum
01:53:36 <moony> ah
01:53:57 <ais523> or, more precisely, you don't know which of the filtered elements correspond to which elements of the original
01:55:07 <moony> Alright. I_Filter{ I_SumOfDigits I_IsPerfectSquare 0
01:55:08 <moony> }
01:55:36 <ais523> right
01:55:37 <moony> I_Filter starts a SS, so the { has no overhead, and the program ends before a } would be needed
01:55:44 <ais523> although what's the 0 for? a typo for }?
01:56:09 <moony> so it's 31 bits. the 0 is there because I_IsPerfectSquare is a dualpurpose function. If that 0 was a 1, it'd act as a filter instead of a check.
01:56:19 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57726&oldid=57725 * Pelirodri * (+60)
01:56:33 <moony> as such, I_IsPerfectSquare is 11 bits, not 10.
01:56:44 <esowiki> [[La We]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57727&oldid=57726 * Pelirodri * (-1)
01:56:55 <moony> 2 7/8 bytes large. Still a really small solution.
01:56:58 <ais523> anyway, I find one of the earlier problems you come across in designing a golfing language so that you can write nontrivial programs in it, is "do filter-like commands filter over several commands, or a single command, by default?"
01:57:21 <ais523> in this case you have it as "several", which is fine, but means you need lots of } (or a short representation for it) in the common case where you only have a short blockk
01:57:40 <moony> ais523, in my case, it's a mix. Some versions of instructions can function as a } as well
01:57:42 <ais523> most languages do the opposite
01:57:53 <moony> i.e. I_IsGreaterThanES
01:58:40 <moony> the most common check functions have a EL/ES embedded into them :D
01:58:54 <ais523> anyway, the main advantage over most golfing languages you have for this is a) blocks that are extending by default, b) shorter names for these builtins
01:59:11 <ais523> digit sum and is-square are both 16 bytes in most current-champion golfing languages, rather than 10
02:00:04 <moony> uh, what do you mean by that. *eyes Jelly's 7 byte solution*
02:00:07 <ais523> the language I'm working on could extend a block around the whole program without using extra bits too; I'm not sure it'll have a 6-bit builtin for select, though, so we might need 12 for that
02:00:11 <ais523> moony: err, 16 *bits*
02:00:16 <moony> heh
02:00:43 <ais523> digit sum would be 12, is-square would possibly be 18
02:01:17 <ais523> so 12+12+18 = 42 bits, so 6 bytes (unless the trailing two bits could be inferred somehow)
02:02:33 <moony> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/172586/nightmare-puzzlang-translator inspired me to start making this lang, btw. None of the mainline golf languages had a nice, clean way to handle both wrapping arrays and moore neighbourhood checks.
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02:03:50 <ais523> actually this has made me realise that a "restart" command at the end of the block (to restore its output to equal its input) should treat references to "this block's output" within the block itself as the value /before/ the restart
02:04:02 <ais523> (because if it wanted the value afterwards, it could just use "this blocks' input")
02:05:26 <moony> assuming the input was a boolean matrix, the solution in Lux would be: I_SetWrapping I_MooreTransformSS{ I_Collect I_NumToChar } I_Collect
02:06:09 <moony> I_Collect is dualpurpose as well, but it uses type checks instead of a bit se- fuck i just realised an inconsistency
02:06:16 <moony> time to make I_CollectBits
02:06:27 <moony> I_SetWrapping I_MooreTransformSS{ I_CollectBits I_NumToChar } I_Collect correction :P
02:07:47 <moony> ais523, if you mean like a stack frame, stack framing was one of the first things i thought about, alongside a stack, for more complicated ops where stack manip is beneficial
02:08:45 <ais523> Brachylog doesn't have anything resembling a stack, that definitely hurts in more complex programs
02:09:07 <moony> Maybe some sort of indexable memory would be beneficial too. I have the encode space for it
02:09:38 <ais523> my recommendation is that you make it indexable via arbitrary objects
02:09:41 <ais523> sort-of like a giant global hash table
02:10:08 <moony> Mm. Only thing it won't be indexable by is lists, because lists technically arn't data
02:10:37 <ais523> why make an exception for those?
02:10:38 <moony> they're their own little thing due to the huge diffrence between lists, and the other types
02:11:13 <moony> But thats internal only
02:11:21 <moony> to the user they're like the rest of the types
02:11:52 <moony> also indexing by a list is a little silly, and the lang's int type can fit a UUID if you need one. (128bit signed integer)
02:12:43 <moony> but i like the global hash table idea
02:13:01 <ais523> the point is to use the hash table for golfing purposes
02:13:18 <ais523> things like my "sort by first occurrence" golfing challenge, the shortest solutions used one
02:13:33 <ais523> (the challenge: given a list, sort the list, where the sort key is "how early the first occurrence of this element appears in the list")
02:14:16 <moony> yea, i know. I can probably make lists function as hash tables when indexed by nonnumbers, which is arguably better
02:14:43 <moony> they'll function as standard vectors when you don't do that, however, for speed/sanity's sake
02:15:03 <moony> or maybe they should be a seperate type. But that means even more special handling code for each instruction
02:15:09 <ais523> several non-esolangs have array-like structures which you can index by basically anything, and which work like an array when you use numbers
02:15:13 <ais523> Lua and PHP, for example
02:15:26 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57728&oldid=54913 * Pelirodri * (+698)
02:15:31 <moony> good point
02:15:35 <moony> so i'll go with that
02:16:02 <moony> I wonder how the Wrapping flag would work with hashmaps tho. that's going to be a difficult semantics issue
02:16:30 <moony> (When it's set, a 1D list pretends to go on forever, repeating itself, a 2D list wraps in a torus fashion, and so on)
02:17:09 <ais523> oerjan: I don't think that language is quite special/amazing enough to be [[Category:Shameful]]
02:17:22 <ais523> that's mostly reserved for things that are not just bad, but spectacularly bad, to the point where it becomes something worth preserving
02:18:19 <moony> firefox pls y u update without asking me
02:18:21 <moony> wait
02:18:22 <moony> oh
02:18:30 <moony> right, i was running yay -Syyu in the backround
02:18:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57729&oldid=57694 * Pelirodri * (-254)
02:18:44 <moony> sorry for blaming you, firefox /s
02:20:07 <moony> I_Divisors I_Square I_Sum I_IsPerfectSquare 0 solves https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/171943/sum-textsquare2 but 05AB1E beats it by a 8th of a byte ):
02:20:36 <moony> mostly because 05AB1E uses the exact same command sequence :P
02:21:35 <ais523> this is the tradeoff between having a few general-purpose builtins and many special-purpose builtins
02:22:04 <moony> pretty much
02:22:13 <moony> each language has it's advantage
02:22:16 <moony> there's no right way
02:22:34 <moony> i mean look at Brainflack of all things, it's pretty good with triangles
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02:30:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:Pelirodri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57730 * Pelirodri * (+0) Created blank page
02:34:17 <ais523> moony: here's a problem you should test your language on: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/129596/am-i-divisible-by-double-the-sum-of-my-digits
02:34:41 <ais523> as that's the most common sort of problem that requires at least minimal stack discipline
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02:35:00 <ais523> Jelly's advantage over other golfing languages, when it's present, mostly comes down to its defaults being highly suited for that sort of porblem
02:35:55 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57731&oldid=57729 * Oerjan * (+355) Replace accidentally deleted content and add unsigned templates
02:36:15 <moony> alright, leme see how i can do it without adding new builtins
02:36:36 <moony> then i'll see what i can improve
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02:39:13 <moony> I_Duplicate I_SumOfDigits Num_2 I_Multiply I_Swap I_Divisors I_FilterInstanceOf seems closest.
02:39:28 <moony> For one, doubling a number is a common op, so a I_Double instruction is a good idea.
02:40:40 <moony> I_Duplicate I_SumOfDigits I_Double I_Swap I_Divisors I_FilterInstanceOf
02:41:01 <moony> I_IsDivisorOf would probably be a nice check/filter to have.
02:41:44 <moony> so I_Duplicate I_SumOfDigits I_Double I_IsDivisorOf 0
02:41:58 <moony> thanks ais523
02:42:52 <moony> 5 1/8 bytes. pretty soundly beat by some of the major langs. RIP
02:43:49 <moony> so, hm. Would making I_SumOfDigits have a nonconsuming version be worth it, or not.
02:44:03 <moony> Two ways that can be done. Make an alt instruction, or make it take up an extra bit of space
02:44:27 <moony> I_SumOfDigits is pretty uncommon, so it's probably not worh it
02:45:40 <esowiki> [[User talk:Pelirodri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57732&oldid=57730 * Oerjan * (+247) Fine
02:46:13 <oerjan> ...why did i use bold instead of italics...
02:48:40 <moony> Truth machine: I_LoopUntilFalseSS{ I_TeePrint 2 1/2 bytes
02:50:35 <moony> I made STDin readable as a stream without thinking about a cat program over 100 instructions ago. Cat program: I_STDin
02:50:38 <moony> Implict print >:D
02:53:18 * moony renames to I_STDIO to make it more useful
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03:59:01 <moony> https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/70837/say-what-you-see Code: I_Unsigned8bitC100 01100 I_Repeat1In{ I_RunlengthEncode }
04:00:03 <moony> well, partial
04:01:39 <moony> Code: I_CmdArgs I_CountdownLp2InSS{ I_RunlengthEncode I_TeePrint } should be correct.
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04:03:53 <moony> I should probably start actually implementing this :P
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06:44:15 <moony> I_MathOp2Chain, I_MathOp3Chain, and I_MathOp4Chain should be pretty useful. Allows joining up 4 4 function math operations (+ - * /) into one instruction, only using up 6 extra bits (Or 2 extra, in the case of I_MathOp2Chain)
06:44:35 <moony> s/4/2, 3, or 4/
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07:33:38 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57733&oldid=57727 * Pelirodri * (+1)
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07:34:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57734&oldid=57728 * Pelirodri * (-140)
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13:52:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:SynDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57735&oldid=57703 * Plokmijnuhby * (+236)
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14:26:41 <moony> Did a bit of reworking older parts. I_FrmSquareMtrx2C 0101010001010000 is the new solution for the 10x10 asterisk grid
14:27:01 <moony> maybe a I_NumToChar might be necessary as well
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15:41:50 <wob_jonas> “<ais523> someone set a challenge "given a photograph of a goat, determine if it's the right way up or upside-down"” hmm, that sounds quotable
15:44:59 <wob_jonas> <ais523> the problem is, for any list of integers, return each element of the list whose digit-sum is square; don't return the sum, return the original element =>
15:45:00 <wob_jonas> an yes. that's why J has the APL repeat primitive (#) which in all these common cases we use as a fork (#~ c) where c is the verb that transforms the number to a bool condition
15:46:38 <wob_jonas> only APL calls that operation "compress" becuse it only takes boolean repeat counts, not integers
15:46:53 <wob_jonas> matlab has that too, but with a very bad syntax
15:47:06 <wob_jonas> overloaded with indexing depending on whether the type is an integer or bool
16:32:17 <wob_jonas> "<moony> Mm. Only thing it won't be indexable by is lists, because lists technically arn't data" => are you making another Q, in which you can index by list but only with special inconvenient syntax, or a Mathematica, where lists flatten into an argument list so they would appear as multiple levels of indexes?
16:32:46 <moony> No.
16:32:53 <moony> those both sound awful lol
16:33:19 <moony> also, the lists arn't data thing was going to be internal only, until i recently figured out a good way to make it function as data
16:33:41 <wob_jonas> “<ais523> (the challenge: given a list, sort the list, where the sort key is "how early the first occurrence of this element appears in the list")” => did J win with ([:;</.) ?
16:33:49 <wob_jonas> J practically has a builtin for that
16:33:52 <wob_jonas> the /. builtin
16:34:15 <wob_jonas> but yeah, J doesn't have a builtin upgoat recognizer
16:34:23 <moony> I have 500~ commands in my list now. Should i fill all 1024 slots, or should i begin building the interpreter...
16:34:30 <moony> s/500/600/
16:35:07 <wob_jonas> moony: the latter.
16:35:17 <wob_jonas> you can still add commands later, like in blsq
16:35:20 <moony> also because i can: I_EngWordLookup is a thing
16:35:38 <moony> 20 bits for the word, 4 bits for determining punctuation and if it should be uppercase'd
16:36:05 <moony> Hello, World! is 8 1/2 bytes large.
16:36:22 <wob_jonas> moony: that sounds like Jelly
16:36:35 <moony> wob_jonas, it's similar in both syntax and design.
16:36:46 <wob_jonas> oh, so you actually have a syntax now?
16:36:49 <wob_jonas> good
16:36:50 <moony> but some extra goodies
16:36:56 <wob_jonas> then definitely build an interpreter
16:37:00 <wob_jonas> is it similar to blsq?
16:37:05 <moony> wob_jonas, it's postfix, with the occassional prefix
16:37:13 * moony looks up blsq
16:37:18 <wob_jonas> burlesque
16:37:23 <wob_jonas> a golfing language
16:37:39 <wob_jonas> but golfers abbreviate its name to blsq
16:37:50 <wob_jonas> only I think there's only one golfer who uses it
16:38:06 <wob_jonas> or maybe two
16:38:21 <moony> mm. Also, i'm 100% going to have to write an encoder that converts the human readable format to the encoded format
16:38:28 <wob_jonas> blsq is a stack-based language
16:38:29 <moony> i'm not manually manipulating bits, thank you very much
16:38:33 <wob_jonas> with a large list of primitives
16:38:50 <wob_jonas> moony: write a decoder too
16:38:54 <moony> wob_jonas, this lang has 2 stacks. And maybe a global hash table, depending on if i decide to heed it
16:39:31 <moony> also aliases for 8 subroutines, and support for 65k of them max.
16:39:46 <wob_jonas> moony: two with or without counting the return stack (the stack of commands to be executed)
16:39:54 <moony> without
16:40:41 <moony> first things first: Remember how the hell to use C++'s type system, i've gotten rusty ):
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16:50:10 <wob_jonas> "<moony> yea, i know. I can probably make lists function as hash tables when indexed by nonnumbers, which is arguably better" => what? like awk or lua? no, don't do that!
16:50:27 <moony> ok
16:50:35 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> Lua and PHP, for example" => ah
16:51:05 <moony> i still have to write my own list implementation anyways, because negative indexes, wrapping, and matrix handling
16:54:04 <wob_jonas> "Num_2 I_Multiply" => you have 500 primitives and no multiply by 2?
16:54:17 <wob_jonas> ah, that's what you say in the next line, ok
16:54:50 <wob_jonas> moony: are some of the 500 primitives assigned to the same code and will overload by the type of the top of stack?
16:55:05 <moony> some use the same code, and yes they overload based on type
16:55:32 <moony> i.e. a List[Char] and a List[Number] can be treated differently.
16:55:48 <moony> (Note that Char and Number are the same type, the only diffrence is literally just a flag)
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17:04:06 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57736&oldid=57733 * B jonas * (-1) ok, do edit war with oerjan, an admin, if that's what you want
17:07:31 <moony> it's been 5 years since the esolang wiki last had a new "featured language"
17:07:45 <moony> shouldn't we pick something new? :P
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17:09:49 <rain1> yes
17:44:24 <Xukkot> moony, I nominate you
17:44:28 <Xukkot> or Funciton
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21:39:04 <ep100> do any of you know of any esolangs with probabilistic parsing? I'm thinking that would be an interesting idea
21:40:17 <ep100> There's a great probabilistic parsing framework called Parserator which I'm wanting to use more >:)
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21:54:17 <esowiki> [[BF-RLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57737&oldid=25359 * Rdebath * (+2744) Replace this with a more inclusive description of RLE encodings.
21:56:12 <esowiki> [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57738&oldid=57717 * Qwertyu63 * (+351) /* Unused image */
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21:59:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57739&oldid=57738 * Qwertyu63 * (+2)
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22:07:12 <zzo38> I wrote a C header file (including documentation) for C Audio Simple Plugin. Let's see if it is good and what stuff should be changed, in order whoever has improvement to do, while it is still the draft version. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/casp.h
22:11:33 <zzo38> I am not sure what mechanism should be used for timing information, how to do wrappers, even if other stuff is necessary or not
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2018-09-24
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01:30:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[File:787138904.png]]": Author request
01:30:49 <esowiki> [[User talk:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57740&oldid=57739 * Oerjan * (+92) /* Unused image */ Done
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01:40:23 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57741&oldid=57736 * Oerjan * (+1) Undo revision 57736 by [[Special:Contributions/B jonas|B jonas]] ([[User talk:B jonas|talk]]) (Let's not make it look like I use sockpuppets after publicly conceding.)
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04:58:24 <zzo38> I made up this: instead :: forall f a. Applicative f => a -> a -> Codensity f a; instead a b = Codensity (\f -> f a *> f b); accepting :: forall f a. Alternative f => (a -> Bool) -> Codensity f a -> f a; accepting f (Codensity m) = m (\a -> a <$ guard (f a)); Can stuff like this be found with other names?
05:00:05 <zzo38> (Also, if you have Alternative f then also Alternative (Codensity f).)
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06:09:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57742&oldid=57326 * FSHelix * (+0) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */
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07:34:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gabriel * New user account
07:40:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57743&oldid=57731 * Gabriel * (+398) /* Introductions */
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09:10:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dylanbeattie * New user account
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09:44:31 <wob_jonas> Everyone in Europe (except for Iceland, Turkey, Belarus, Russia), don't forget, time zone offset change is on the coming weekend.
09:46:33 <wob_jonas> (Uh, and whichever parts of the Caucasus you count as Europe, no change there either.)
09:46:45 <Taneb> Thanks!
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10:50:16 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57744&oldid=57534 * YamTokWae * (+167)
11:20:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57745&oldid=57743 * Dylanbeattie * (+260) Introduced myself as per instructions.
11:27:49 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57746 * Dylanbeattie * (+1204) Created page with "Rockstar is a dynamically typed Turing-complete programming language designed for creating computer programs that are also song lyrics. Rockstar is heavily influenced by the l..."
11:33:23 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57747&oldid=57746 * Dylanbeattie * (+3387)
11:34:07 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57748&oldid=57747 * Dylanbeattie * (+83) /* 'Hello, World' in Rockstar */
11:34:44 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57749&oldid=57748 * Dylanbeattie * (+0) /* Implementations */
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14:27:50 <wob_jonas> Hehe. The python 3.7 changes docs says that a setting "will become the default in Python 4.0."
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14:51:35 <ep100> wob_jonas: hahaha that's hilarious. That reminds me of a (kind of clueless) professor telling us that we can use either of Python version 3 or version 4 for the course
14:51:57 <ep100> It's pretty sad that once you've got tenure you can pretty much speak shit and no one cares
14:52:21 <wob_jonas> well, it's sort of useful info, it basically tells you not to expect that behavior to be default in python 3.8 or 3.9
14:52:47 <wob_jonas> (there's a setting to enable that behavior in 3.7 and onwards)
14:53:42 <ep100> fair
14:54:46 <ep100> Still (in the case of the professor), getting details like that right is super important for new programmers given how much other complicated stuff they are trying to stick in their brain!
14:55:03 <wob_jonas> sure
14:55:33 <ep100> Having to doubt/fact-check everything you are taught is a major waste of mental space
14:55:46 <ep100> what esolangs are you working on wob_jonas ?
14:57:23 <wob_jonas> ep100: well, I should eventually implement Consumer Society, write some example programs for it to test the interpreter, and document it. I keep putting it off. I invented the basics of that language over a year ago now.
15:04:07 <shachaf> `ysaclist 80
15:04:08 <HackEso> ysaclist 80: boily shachaf
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18:42:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Randairox * New user account
19:03:11 <esowiki> [[La We]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57750&oldid=57741 * Rdebath * (+767) Trivial Implementation in Ruby for trivial brainfuck substitution.
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19:33:06 <esowiki> [[BF-RLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57751&oldid=57737 * Rdebath * (+120) Add a link to BFC
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20:32:41 <esowiki> [[Rockstar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57752&oldid=57749 * Blacksilver * (-5) Fixed links
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21:05:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57753&oldid=57745 * Randairox * (+180) /* Introduction */
21:07:53 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57754&oldid=57753 * Randairox * (+9) /* Introductions */
21:08:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57755&oldid=57754 * Randairox * (+1) /* Introductions */
21:09:35 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57756&oldid=57755 * Randairox * (+0) /* Introductions */
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21:46:49 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57757 * Randairox * (+1793) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=\_()_/ |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Randairox|Randairox]] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |memsys=tape-based |class=:Category:Turing co..."
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22:05:50 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57758&oldid=57757 * Randairox * (+300)
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22:09:39 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57759&oldid=57758 * Randairox * (+7)
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03:32:02 <oerjan> <wob_jonas> Everyone in Europe (except for Iceland, Turkey, Belarus, Russia), don't forget, time zone offset change is on the coming weekend. <-- [citation needed] or you're off by a month.
03:32:54 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas <wob_jonas> Everyone in Europe (except for Iceland, Turkey, Belarus, Russia), don't forget, time zone offset change is on the coming weekend. <-- [citation needed] or you're off by a month.
03:32:55 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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10:55:38 <esowiki> [[Chipish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57760&oldid=57724 * Galaxtone * (+12050) Put everything in tables, changes a few things, added timers and such.
11:04:07 <esowiki> [[Chipish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57761&oldid=57760 * Galaxtone * (+1) /* Timers */
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11:13:58 <\oren\> Stupid bjam, why did we need a fourth build system intertwined with perl scripts, shell scripts, and makefiles
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11:14:16 <\oren\> and it's the worst one of all
11:14:31 <\oren\> at least I can read perl
11:14:52 <esowiki> [[Chipish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57762&oldid=57761 * Galaxtone * (+1664) Added code tags for monospacing
11:15:03 <Taneb> How else are you going to build Forth programs
11:15:04 <\oren\> bjam has a confusing syntax and no documentation worth a damn
11:15:39 <int-e> Taneb: Is brute Forth an option?
11:16:02 <\oren\> Taneb: I would assume you'd build Forth programs with some sort of Reverse Polish Shell
11:16:09 <\oren\> repsh
11:16:32 <\oren\> no wait, porsh
11:17:14 <\oren\> rf- rm
11:17:37 <\oren\> / rf- rm sudo
11:19:33 <int-e> : ; { : | : } ( ) :
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13:01:03 <wob_jonas> oerjan: darn, you're right. no timezone offset change this weekend yet. Taneb: sorry, false alarm.
13:01:25 <wob_jonas> I'll have to make my own fucking calendar webpage, one that shows both month numbers and month names. I hate how I always have to convert them in my head.
13:02:11 <wob_jonas> Why can't everyone use month numbers in proper numerals, rather than all these stupid multilingual month names and month name abbreviations (and sometimes roman numerals for month numbers)
13:02:21 <wob_jonas> @messages
13:02:48 <wob_jonas> And why can't I just have a calendar that displays both the month number and the name without me having to make one?
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13:56:12 <doesthiswork> It's not that complicated, for many months the number is right there in the name
13:58:32 <Taneb> doesthiswork: there's certainly *a* number right there in the name
14:02:49 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: It gets worse because I sometimes see month names in various different languages, plus month abbreviations, plus day of week names, plus day of week abbreviations, and there's multiple languages of each and sometimes there's more than one per language and sometimes they clash or the localization databases have long-standing errors tha
14:02:49 <wob_jonas> t you can't fix without upgrading libc and upgrading libc is very hard
14:02:54 <wob_jonas> so it all gets complicated
14:03:34 <wob_jonas> It would be so much simpler if everyone just stick to numbers and proper formatting
14:03:44 <wob_jonas> but we're slowly winning space in that area
14:05:10 <wob_jonas> the old generation with their fancy 12 hour clocks with IIII on them is disappearing, people use mobile phones that show proper %H:%M time
14:05:35 <int-e> "proper"
14:05:45 <doesthiswork> Vendémiaire is a name full of such rich associations that it would be a shame to swap it out for a plain boring number
14:06:41 <wob_jonas> sure, we still have the asctime function and funny defaults for the unix date and ls commands, which we can't replace for historical compatibility reasons, but we can just avoid using those defaults
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14:11:29 <wob_jonas> basically, ancient unix ran on one machine with one timezone and the clock covered only a few years, so they set the default format to like Tuesday, September 25 16:09:31 and then it was too late to change that part when they added a year number, the format for asctime became like Tuesday, September 25 16:09:31 2018 (with the date number space-padd
14:11:29 <wob_jonas> ed but the weekday name and month name variable length),
14:13:27 <wob_jonas> and then they thought they should add timezones too, and the format became like September 25 16:09:31 CEDT 2018 with a timezone abbreviation that is ambiguous,
14:14:50 <wob_jonas> the next step is adding an unambiguous timezone identifier, a DST flag, a timezone offset in case the receiving end has an older timezone database, and subsecond precision, but thrown them in at random places in those pieces of data so you get a jumbled mess
14:15:06 <\oren\> or we could just use metric time
14:16:25 <wob_jonas> September (Europe/Paris) 25 DST=1 16:09:31 CEDT 2018 .332922367 +0200
14:16:49 <wob_jonas> wait, I forgot the Tuesday
14:16:54 <\oren\> specifically, replace the day with the hectokilosecond and the week with the megasecond
14:17:04 <wob_jonas> Tuesday, September (Europe/Paris) 25 DST=1 16:09:31 CEDT 2018 .332922367 +0200
14:18:36 <wob_jonas> and all HTTP clients and mail/news readers and FTP clients have to read this sort of format, and while at least there's only one format used for HTTP, there's multiple used in mail/news headers
14:19:20 <wob_jonas> and the HTTP cache control all depends on stupid historical things like that
14:20:11 <wob_jonas> but when we don't have to be compatible with all protocols, but design new ones, then we can use sane formats at least
14:20:17 <\oren\> for protocols they should just be useing integers
14:20:31 <wob_jonas> \oren\: sure, newer protocols are saner
14:20:59 <wob_jonas> HTTP and mail/news are just old formats, and it's not worth to change this now, because everyone already implements that one format for HTTP so it would be just a new compatibility problem
14:22:03 <wob_jonas> `datei
14:22:04 <wob_jonas> `dateu
14:22:04 <HackEso> 2018-09-25 14:22:03.942171888+00:00
14:22:05 <HackEso> 2018-09-25 14:22:05.012416556+00:00
14:22:09 <wob_jonas> ^ these use saner formats
14:22:49 <wob_jonas> they don't have to be compatible with HTTP, they're for me to read
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14:51:59 <\oren\> Bowsette is a stupid name, at least call her Princess Bowser or something
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15:44:52 <\oren\> The main feature of svn over git is sequential commit numbers
15:45:46 <\oren\> there should be a way for git to renumber the commits to sequential numbers when they get sent to the server
15:46:12 <wob_jonas> \oren\: could you just use hg for that?
15:47:34 <wob_jonas> of course, the numbers are only consistent within one repository, just like in svn, and sometimes you clone or mirror a repository with modifications like throwing away some commits or unifying two repositories or whatever, and then the sequence numbers are rearranged
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15:51:13 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it's just much more convenient in email for example to say "I caused the build to fail in revision 25502" than "I caused the build to fail starting at j24hwtfbbq"
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15:52:46 <wob_jonas> \oren\: sure, and if you have a central server agreed on and that commit you're talking about is there, then that works and you can send such emails. that's why hg provides both sequential numbers and hash digests.
15:53:25 <wob_jonas> so if you have a centeral hg repository where you never change history, that works, after you commit into that.
15:55:12 <wob_jonas> note though that in that it might technically still need a branch name (unless you never commit to the same branch twice), and in git or svn or hg if you have a branch of which you never rewrite the history, you can use a timestamp to identify the commit, and all three have an easy way to find the latest commit before a date and a branch name
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16:00:30 <wob_jonas> ok, sadly it's not _that_ easy
16:04:42 <wob_jonas> if you use (-r "{2018-09-25T12:55:49}") as an argumen to svn for such a date, it will find the previous commit, because the commit is actually slightly after that time, at 2018-09-25T10:55:48.763811Z, but you mostly see it rounded down and in _your_ timezone.
16:05:01 <wob_jonas> So dates aren't such a good way to identify commits in emails after all
16:05:05 <wob_jonas> darn
16:06:14 <wob_jonas> if you say -r "{2018-09-25T10:55:48.763811Z}" that actually finds that commit, not the previous commit, interestingly
16:06:42 <wob_jonas> but giving a full precision date or manually rounding up is not very convenient for an email
16:07:35 <wob_jonas> in any case, you could probably implement some sort of sequential numbers in git that remain unchanged unless you rewrite the history
16:09:22 <wob_jonas> And just not committing anything that causes the build to fail isn't enough, because then you still have to write emails like "You caused the build to fail starting at <some version control thing>" when somebody else does that
16:09:55 <wob_jonas> Obviously you'd be more specific in the email, telling what kind of failure you get
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16:42:06 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57763&oldid=57759 * Ais523 * (+31) {{DISPLAYTITLE}}
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17:51:50 <esowiki> [[BF-RLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57764&oldid=57751 * ZM * (+14) /* Other bases */ stylistic improvement: grammar + ambiguous phrasing
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19:52:19 <\oren\> Princess Bowser "The Usurper" Koopanid, of the Mushroom Kingdom
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01:13:59 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57765&oldid=57763 * Randairox * (-25)
01:14:23 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57766&oldid=57765 * Randairox * (+1) /* Overview */
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01:15:43 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57767&oldid=57766 * Randairox * (-40)
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03:44:22 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57768&oldid=57767 * Randairox * (+1151) /* Example */
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06:30:19 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57769&oldid=57744 * YamTokWae * (+1046)
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09:53:49 <wob_jonas> Dude, your spambots suck at collecting personal data. I clearly tell everywhere that I live in Europe, yet you send me scam emails about my card at "Bank of America".
09:54:55 <wob_jonas> You undermine the good work of other spammers who send much more believable scam emails, thus making people more wary of those scams.
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09:55:10 <wob_jonas> It's such irresponsible and uncooperative behavior.
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10:05:55 <Taneb> wob_jonas: I've been told in the past that the outrageously bad spam are to filter out people who are good at picking up on small details that'd waste the spammers time by realising something later on
10:06:15 <Taneb> If you target people who don't spot obvious things, they're not going to spot the subtle things later on
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10:12:03 <wob_jonas> Taneb: sure, that's true for many spam, like the badly translated ones that tell me that a bank in Hungary or some other big infrastructure company with which I likely have an affiliation with have sent me a message, and contain a link to a webpage other than the bank's or whatever. Perhaps even the "American uncle left huge inheritance and you mig
10:12:03 <wob_jonas> ht be a relative" and "you won the Microsoft lottery" spam is like that. But why would anyone naive in Hungary believe that they've got a Bank of America credit card?
10:12:20 <wob_jonas> And do those gullible people even speak enough English to understand what that message means?
10:13:21 <Taneb> It might just be a very wide net
10:13:26 <wob_jonas> Ah, I see!
10:13:35 <Taneb> Rather than targetted spam
10:13:46 <Taneb> Like "I've got a big list of email addresses, let's send this to all of them"
10:14:02 <wob_jonas> It's my mistake. Checking the specifics, it is about inheritence from an American uncle, the Bank of Americac card is just a method of payment from them.
10:14:13 <wob_jonas> Sorry, that makes it somewhat better.
10:14:58 <wob_jonas> "information we received today from the United Nation and the Brutish government and also the FBI, They ordered us to pay you your Inheritance payment of $10 million through ATM card delivery, and the UN government and the FBI are compensating you with this full amount of $10 million U.S D via ATM card, Because you were found in the list of scam v
10:14:58 <wob_jonas> ictim"
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10:15:11 <Taneb> I got a text the other day saying that someone's requested to take over my phone line. I'm fairly sure this is spam, but it almost had me convinced
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10:18:12 <wob_jonas> And I guess even Bank of America offering an "ATM card" wouldn't be implausible itself, because these days even in Hungary they copied the American model of a lot of stores affiliated with banks offer you free credit cards, and there are so many banks with foreign ownership that "Bank of America" wouldn't be such a bad name for a hypothetical bank
10:18:13 <wob_jonas> that operates in Hungary.
10:18:20 <wob_jonas> I think there's a "Bank of China" or something here.
10:18:32 <wob_jonas> Let me check.
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10:24:37 <wob_jonas> Yep, there's a bank in Hungary called "Bank of China (Hungária) Hitelintézet Zártkörűen Működő Részvénytársaság" on the MNB's list
10:25:09 <wob_jonas> "https://intezmenykereso.mnb.hu/Details/Index?LId=4881&EntityType=Institute&expandAccordions=IntezmenyAlapadatok"
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10:27:27 <wob_jonas> No bank or similar with "America" in its name yet in Hungary, but it is plausible.
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10:28:41 <wob_jonas> Ok, I retract my comment, it's less silly than I thought, though it is indeed one of those spams with the details so obviously wrong that only the stupidest person would fall for it. I've seen *much* more believable scams.
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14:23:19 <lob_jonas> Oh great! So in Firefox, I can get the annoying Pocket menu items and buttons go away by setting extensions.pocket.enabled to false in about:config
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14:24:39 <lob_jonas> (The menu item was even picking up the wrong UI localization setting, so it was a menu item named in Hungarian in a menu where most other items are English. I'm sort of used to English question with "Igen" and "Nem" button message boxes from older Windows, but still.
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15:36:37 <lob_jonas> Tip of the day. How to easily make short URLs a page (eg. with a long title)on a Mediawiki wiki? Look at the long inline javascript near the start of the page. Find the part that looks like ',"wgArticleId":9270,'. Take the number from it. Make an url like "https://esolangs.org/w?curid=9270" or "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/?curid=43455817" with
15:36:37 <lob_jonas> the same number in the curid parameter.
15:36:42 <lob_jonas> This is not the only possible method, and might fail on some Mediawiki instances, so I know some fallbacks, but it works on enough that I've used it several times. Useful on IRC and other media where the length of messages including URLs is limited, or with esolangs that have deliberately esoteric names. As a bonus, this sort of URL doesn't even re
15:36:42 <lob_jonas> direct to an URL with a long title in it.
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18:41:40 <esowiki> [[User:Andrew3335]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57771&oldid=57422 * Andrew3335 * (+69)
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20:24:46 <shachaf> `? comonad
20:24:47 <HackEso> Comonads are just monads in the dual category. They are hard to get into.
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21:25:01 <wob_jonas> In X11, when I kill firefox, sometimes icewm (the window manager) gets confused and thinks that firefox's windows are still present, and will draw window decoration for them and allow all the wm interactive functionality on them. I can fix that by restarting icewm, which has almost no side effects. I don't know if the problem is in icewm, X11, or f
21:25:01 <wob_jonas> irefox.
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21:25:55 <shachaf> why not all three hth
21:25:59 <wob_jonas> I don't even know how restarting the wm can be so smooth in X11. Icewm even knows afterwards which virtual desktop each window is on. I wonder if X11 supports that specifically somehow.
21:26:14 <wob_jonas> shachaf: icewm definitely has other cases when it gets confused and I have to restart it, so it's easy to blame.
21:26:54 <wob_jonas> but I can also blame firefox because I definitely have to kill it often, at least on this machine that has too little RAM (and also too slow ram and too few CPU and GPU capacity).
21:28:09 <wob_jonas> I still have problems on firefox with more modern hosts, but it's much worse on my old home machine, mostly either because it wants to allocate too much RAM, and because I play streamed videos.
21:30:31 <wob_jonas> As for videos, I'd like to note that both on this machine and on higher performance machines, I sometimes see cases when there's a very high quality video that VLC has much more trouble playing than ffmpeg. I think that's mostly because ffmpeg is better at decoding _some_ of the video and rendering it smoothly when it doesn't have enough performanc
21:30:32 <wob_jonas> e available to render all the data in there.
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21:31:16 <wob_jonas> For such videos, VLC usually just gets stuck at a frame (or before the first frame) and doesn't display anything new after that (sound can still play).
21:32:06 <wob_jonas> Obviously the real solution in such cases is to re-encode the video to much lower quality, which is slower than real time.
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21:34:58 <wob_jonas> Much lower video quality at least. I rarely meet audio streams in videos that are too high quality to play, even on the slow home machine.
21:35:35 <wob_jonas> I have met high quality video with audio that's hard to play because it has channels for more than two speakers, and the player plays only the sound of two speakers, but there's important sounds that are audible only on some of the other speakers.
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21:36:56 <wob_jonas> Obviously it's still possible to re-encode or play that correctly, but I don't know how to figure out the right options for that. I worked with video but not audio, so I know almost nothing about handling it with software.
21:37:10 <wob_jonas> s/but not audio/but not with audio/
21:38:04 <wob_jonas> That is, I handled videos, including invoking video encoders and decoder software, in my previous job.
21:39:10 <wob_jonas> I've never written my own encoder or decoder (as in a codec itself, as opposed to a wrapper), but I might try to write a toy image encoder and decoder at some point.
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22:27:02 <boily> alercah: HELLORCAH!
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22:43:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Salpynx * New user account
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00:10:12 <wob_jonas> Argh, this stupid cycle, when I add disinfectant liquid (iodine-based) to the wounds on my hand, then I try to wash (with warm water) the liquid from the parts of the skin where it's not needed (it has some side effects), then add disinfectant liquid again to the wounds where it accidentally washed off (warm water solves it really well, and both wa
00:10:12 <wob_jonas> ter and the disinfectant can spread out on my hand so they're hard to localize), then wash it off again.
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09:54:54 <wob_jonas> The Magyar Tudományos Akadémia I. Nyelv- és Irodalomtudományok Osztálya (Hungarian Academy of Sciences, I. Section of Linguistics and Literary Scholarship) weren't such a collective holy paladins trying to uphold the rules they extrapolate from tradition, despite that the extrapolation is chaotic and their choices often have no reason.
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10:13:11 <wob_jonas> They don't have much power on language use, because most people just ignore their rules, but they do control the Hungarian part of allowing giving names to people in official IDs. They insist that a name can only be used as a Hungarian given name if it is either unambiguously male name or unambiguously female name, despite that they already have pr
10:13:11 <wob_jonas> ecedents that go against this, namely "Abigél" as a female given name when "Abigail" is used as both male and female elsewhere.
10:17:24 <wob_jonas> How are we supposed to slowly erode the stupid traditional distinction of male and female given names (with a much worse choice in female give names too) if they insist on that, and we have to use one of the several loopholes nominally involving foreign cultures or foreign countries to put other given names in our ID cards?
10:19:41 <wob_jonas> For reference, MTA I. Oszt. summarizes those rules on http://www.nytud.hu/oszt/nyelvmuvelo/utonevek/alapelvek.html
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12:10:59 <wob_jonas> This is getting ridiculous. The president of Kazahstan has declared that their country will urgently start using a latin letter alphabet for writing the kazak language, and he has announced three alphabets so far, in 2017-09, 2017-10, and 2018-02 respectively, each of the three different from each other and every latin writing or transcription used
12:10:59 <wob_jonas> for the kazak language before, and apparently each time with not enough details to figure out the correct writing of every word.
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12:16:29 <wob_jonas> Even apart from what the poor schoolchildren have to endure if the change of writing system is actually carried out in the impossibly fast pace like the president suggests, I wonder if the President at least personally went and queued in the local government office to get new ID papers with his middle name written with a starting Ә, Ae, Aʼ, and Á r
12:16:29 <wob_jonas> espectively.
12:17:44 <wob_jonas> You know, to serve as a good example for his people, like communist dictators should do.
12:21:25 <wob_jonas> Nah, that sucks. My snarky comment after the 2017-10 about Orwell and re-engraving all the marble statues and entering in people's houses to replace their instructions for use of their washing machine was better.
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13:33:40 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57772&oldid=57770 * YamTokWae * (+117)
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13:46:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Strona * New user account
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15:13:43 <int-e> TIL that the US hyphenation of "analysis" is "anal-y-sis"; the British respect etymology and use "ana-ly-sis". *sigh*
15:14:27 <Taneb> int-e: ooh, that's a subtle difference I hadn't noticed
15:16:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: nice
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19:29:59 <john_metcalf> Is something like this considered bad programming practice in C?
19:29:59 <john_metcalf> while (a != 0)
19:29:59 <john_metcalf> {
19:29:59 <john_metcalf> a ^= b ^= a ^= b %= a;
19:29:59 <john_metcalf> }
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19:38:09 <izabera> the only way to know is to get a job as a c programmer in a team with other people and try to get it past code review
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19:47:30 <john_metcalf> I live in the middle of no-where. No tech jobs here!
19:59:11 <\oren\> answer yes it is
19:59:43 <\oren\> it is bad programming practice chiefly because it's hard to tell from a glance what it is doing
20:01:36 <pikhq_> ^
20:02:20 <pikhq_> I'm also reasonably sure it's UB, since it modifies the same variable twice without an intervening sequence point.
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20:14:20 <int-e> pikhq_: IIRC assignments are sequence points
20:14:42 <int-e> (let me check)
20:14:50 <pikhq_> I did not see them listed as such.
20:14:59 <pikhq_> (I might've just missed it though)
20:15:11 <pikhq_> Of course, even if it's defined behavior it's awfully naughty to do that.
20:15:19 <pikhq_> (see also: we're debating whether it is. :))
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20:17:23 <int-e> pikhq_: Nah it looks like I was wrong. I guess it was wishful thinking on my part.
20:18:39 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's part of a code that attempts to compute the GCD of machine integers, or integers in machine floating points. Isn't that obvious? It's a version of Euclid's algorithm.
20:19:21 <wob_jonas> I don't know what code you have to put around it to make it correct, or if it ever can, but what it is _trying_ to do is obvious enough.
20:20:56 <int-e> see the first runner-up at http://www.underhanded-c.org/_page_id_16.html
20:21:18 <wob_jonas> The xor-swap thing isn't even wrong here, because if this is C and there are no macro tricks and it compiles, then a and b are distinct objects and the compilers knows that, and a good modern compiler will know that it's effectively a swap and optimize it correctly.
20:22:18 <wob_jonas> If you use the xor-swap thing on objects that are sometimes the same, that's generally bad code, but on objects known at compile time to be non-overlapping it's not a problem.
20:22:55 <int-e> and it's still bad code
20:23:19 <pikhq_> You know what's more important than the compiler?
20:23:22 <pikhq_> The human.
20:23:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: that runner-up uses xor-swap on objects that may be the same, and that's the bug in it (or one of the bugs).
20:23:37 <wob_jonas> pikhq: sadly, humans knew the xor-swap thing before compilers did.
20:23:49 <pikhq_> *Some* humans know the xor-swap thing.
20:24:15 <pikhq_> If your code relies on the reader knowing this "one weird trick", and there's little to no benefit from doing it other than showing you're clever, it's bad code.
20:24:38 <int-e> how about... x = x + y; y = x - y; x = x - y;
20:25:18 <int-e> it almost works for floats, works for unsigned integers, and can cause undefined behavior for signed integers
20:25:22 <int-e> fun all around
20:25:27 <pikhq_> Still bad, when there's tmp = x; x = y; y = tmp; which is rather more obvious. :)
20:25:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: that can be undefined behavior because of overflow if x and y are integrals that aren't unsigned, and can produce incorrect result for floats, and I've no idea what it does for bools in C
20:26:33 <int-e> thanks for repeating what I wrote?
20:26:41 <FireFly> What does the while loop with the %= a actually do?
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20:26:50 <FireFly> Like I recognised the xorswap, but I'm not sure what it accomplishes in full
20:26:58 <int-e> FireFly: euclidean algorithm
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20:27:06 <int-e> (which has been mentioned before)
20:27:07 <FireFly> ah
20:27:10 <FireFly> whoops
20:27:19 <FireFly> missed that bit
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20:27:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: sorry, I type slow
20:28:11 <int-e> gcd(int a, int b) { for (;;) { if (b == 0) return a; b %= a; if (a == 0) return b; a %= b; } } // yay, no swaps.
20:28:34 <int-e> and... wrong
20:28:55 <int-e> gcd(int a, int b) { for (;;) { if (b == 0) return a; a %= b; if (a == 0) return b; b %= a; } } // yay, no swaps, and not dividing by 0...
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20:39:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, but there's rarely a point to do either. division by a machine-sized variable is always so slow that unless you're micro-optimizing for decoded instruction cache or something crazy like that, you should probably use the algorithm with the bitwise shift and subtraction (TAOCP ch. 4.5.2 Algorithm B) instead.
20:40:26 <wob_jonas> Or just get one of the free software libraries implementing a fixed-integer gcd for you from the internets.
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11:32:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tearzz * New user account
11:34:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57773&oldid=57756 * Tearzz * (+90) My introduction
11:36:05 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57774&oldid=57742 * Tearzz * (+0) /* Read until newline/other char */ there was an error. It was taking input from the keyboard then moving over immediately, ignoring what was typed.
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16:50:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57775&oldid=57679 * Hakerh400 * (+751) Response
16:58:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57776&oldid=57775 * Hakerh400 * (-1) word
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20:59:02 <zzo38> Do you like XYZABCDE.ZZT game?
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01:35:24 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you going to John Baez's talk next week?
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06:55:30 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57777&oldid=57772 * YamTokWae * (+25)
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08:41:57 <\oren\> Mmm delicious breakfasty https://imgur.com/Crm2H51
08:43:11 <shachaf> sigh
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12:01:43 <andrewtheircguy> hi
12:01:50 <andrewtheircguy> i've made an esolang
12:05:17 <andrewtheircguy> can we talk about our esolangs here?
12:05:27 <andrewtheircguy> or just talk about esolangs in general?
12:18:35 <andrewtheircguy> oh
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12:18:47 <andrewtheircguy> hi, glguy
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12:21:52 <andrewtheircguy> oh
12:21:53 <andrewtheircguy> goodbye
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12:22:39 <\oren\> what is your language called ans what is it like?
12:25:20 <andrewtheircguy> my lang is called dotlang
12:25:27 <andrewtheircguy> it's a fungeoid
12:25:32 <andrewtheircguy> where dots move arounds
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12:26:23 <andrewtheircguy> a dot is basically a variable
12:26:36 <andrewtheircguy> by default it moves right
12:26:53 <andrewtheircguy> but now come the directional commands (v, ^, >, <)
12:27:21 <andrewtheircguy> putting any of these to the left of the dot will cause it to go in that direction
12:27:32 <andrewtheircguy> a dot can also store data
12:27:46 <andrewtheircguy> dots store 3 types of data: ints, floats and strings
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12:29:36 <andrewtheircguy> hey, imode
12:29:42 <andrewtheircguy> i was the guy named "andrew"
12:29:56 <andrewtheircguy> and i made an esolang
12:30:33 <andrewtheircguy> now, to set a dot's value you use the letter s
12:30:49 <andrewtheircguy> s12.0 sets the dot's value to 12.0
12:31:01 <andrewtheircguy> s`hello world` sets its value to hello world
12:36:05 <andrewtheircguy> wanna know more?
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12:47:23 <andrewtheircguy> well
12:47:53 <andrewtheircguy> you can set a dot to an user's input by using ~
12:47:58 <andrewtheircguy> ```
12:47:59 <HackEso> bash: -c: option requires an argument
12:48:08 <andrewtheircguy> oh ok
12:48:09 <andrewtheircguy> anyway
12:49:20 <andrewtheircguy> to input a string as the value of the dot use s`(string here)
12:49:27 <andrewtheircguy> now
12:49:40 <andrewtheircguy> dots are represented by bullet points
12:54:46 <andrewtheircguy> to output a dot's value use #
13:01:49 <andrewtheircguy> now here are basic operations
13:01:56 <andrewtheircguy> +, -, *, /
13:02:37 <andrewtheircguy> `•`a+b`•`
13:02:37 <HackEso> ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: •`a+b`•`: not found
13:03:01 <andrewtheircguy> to determine which dot comes first in an operation, you suffix it with a backtick and an a
13:03:20 <andrewtheircguy> to determine which comes second ya suffix it with ` and a lowercase b
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13:04:05 <andrewtheircguy> now let's talk about warps
13:04:25 <andrewtheircguy> a warp's name is what comes after a capital W
13:04:43 <andrewtheircguy> W1$ is the starting point for a warp
13:04:52 <andrewtheircguy> aka where the dot has to go
13:05:10 <andrewtheircguy> and W1& is the ending point of a warp, where the dot gets teleported
13:05:17 <andrewtheircguy> W~ asks for input from the user
13:05:36 <andrewtheircguy> if you inputted the number 1, for example, it'd take you to warp 1
13:05:40 <andrewtheircguy> or warp named 1
13:07:18 <andrewtheircguy> that can be used to make a calculator
13:15:33 <andrewtheircguy> and the letter n is used as the nand logic gate, the only gate in dotlang
13:15:35 <andrewtheircguy> cool?
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14:33:17 <andrewtheircguy> or not
14:42:14 <andrewtheircguy> nobody's giving any feedback
14:48:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * B * New user account
14:54:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57778&oldid=57773 * B * (+131) /* Introductions */
14:55:14 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57779&oldid=56975 * B * (+4) /* Interpreter */ whitespace
15:00:45 <esowiki> [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57780&oldid=57779 * B * (+266) /* Interpreter */ improved Python 3 and Python 2 interpreters
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15:40:54 <esowiki> [[Whirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57781&oldid=44108 * B * (+41) /* External resources */ replaced broken link with copy from the Wayback Machine
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16:47:51 <Sgeo> `olist 1142
16:47:51 <HackEso> olist 1142: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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18:05:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: whoa, olist on saturday?
18:05:37 <shachaf> That's unusual
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18:35:34 <zzo38> How do you call that if the main character pushes zero to try to call the operator but calls the operetta instead by mistake?
18:36:22 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57782&oldid=57777 * YamTokWae * (+18) /* References */
18:36:31 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57783&oldid=57782 * YamTokWae * (+0) /* References */
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19:05:34 <wob_jonas> I bought a mobile phone for my grandmother. MyPhone Halo 2. It turns out, this one actually has a good interface, unlike the other phones I've seen. Definitely much better than the previous ones.
19:06:32 <wob_jonas> The hungarian translations in the interface are a bit wonky at times, and the back cover (hiding the battery, SIM card and memory card) are totally impossible to remove without a tool.
19:07:04 <wob_jonas> But apart from that, it's a solid phone. I'll have to check if they sell non-grandma versions of this, because if they do, I totally want one.
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19:25:39 <doesthiswork> zzo28: a terrible pun
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19:26:15 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: wow, did zzo38 lose 10?
19:28:48 <doesthiswork> wob_jon`s: what do you mean?
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19:36:42 <zzo38> OK, it is a terrible pun, I suppose
19:37:19 <doesthiswork> what story are you writing?
19:37:40 <zzo38> It is a computer game
19:37:57 <doesthiswork> text adventure?
19:39:24 <zzo38> Actually it is ZZT
19:39:42 <zzo38> You can try to play game if you like to do
19:42:20 <doesthiswork> sure
19:44:06 <zzo38> You can download the game from http://zzo38computer.org/ZZT/xyzabcde.zip but you also need ZZT (version 3.2 is preferred; it is a DOS program, but it works fine in DOSBOX if you increase the emulation speed a bit)
19:44:33 <zzo38> ZZT itself can be downloaded from https://museumofzzt.com/file/z/zzt.zip
19:44:58 <doesthiswork> nifty
19:46:55 <zzo38> (Once you start ZZT, push W on the title screen to select "XYZABCDE" and then the title screen for that file appears, and you can push P to play. All controls are mentioned on the screen, although it is recommended to use escape to pause (push escape again to unpause, or Y to quit) rather than P.)
19:50:20 <zzo38> Did you try to play this game?
19:50:44 <doesthiswork> yes, I have the worlds menu open
19:51:11 <doesthiswork> and I'm going to put xyzabcde in the zzt folder to see if it makes it show up
19:52:23 <zzo38> Yes, it needs to be in the same directory
19:53:14 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Is the name "ZZT" for the game system connected to your nick?
19:53:59 <doesthiswork> shit I told dosbox to open zzt.exe every time (instead of the help file) and now when I open it, it stay black for a second and tells me it finished
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19:56:05 <wob_jonas> Yup, MyPhone sells non-grandma phones too. I'll have to check them out.
19:56:38 <doesthiswork> I took your game back out of the zzt folder and now zzt.exe works fine
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19:57:46 <zzo38> doesthiswork: I don't know why; it should work. Just run "dosbox ." or whatever from the directory ZZT is in, and then start ZZT from there, maybe that will work better
19:57:58 <doesthiswork> and then added it back in while it was running and now it works
19:58:27 <doesthiswork> it looks OZ inspired
20:01:03 <doesthiswork> also the corner drawing characters seem to be missing from this charset
20:01:48 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: you're probably using cp850 or cp852 or similar. switch to cp437, that's probably what the game is planned for.
20:02:09 <zzo38> Yes, that is correct, you need cp437
20:02:24 <wob_jonas> HAH! crystal ball diagnostics
20:09:38 <zzo38> (The game still works with other code pages, although 437 is best)
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20:13:06 <doesthiswork> the free music is nice
20:14:22 <doesthiswork> it looks like I need a key
20:15:03 <zzo38> Yes, some places require keys, which you may be able to find elsewhere.
20:16:41 <wob_jonas> Is there a key duplication bug to get two red keys?
20:18:49 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Sorry, I do not understand. Are you referring to some specific room in this game, or to something else?
20:19:17 <doesthiswork> I like being invincible
20:19:27 <wob_jonas> zzo38: nah, just a stupid joke. there's a key duplication bug in Lost Vikings that lets you get two keys where the game only tries to give you one
20:19:35 <zzo38> wob_jonas: O, OK.
20:19:53 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Yes, but it doesn't last forever, but only for a short time, so be careful
20:20:14 <wob_jonas> It only helps on levels that have more than three keyholes, and so reuse a color of key
20:20:37 <wob_jonas> And it's a bit hard to execute.
20:30:22 <shachaf> wob_jonas: So when I read "the violet form of the Dark One" in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html I figured that the Dark One has many forms, and this one happens to be the violet one
20:30:44 <shachaf> But I guess the intended meaning was that the form was violet, and in particular it was the Dark One, whose form is always violet
20:31:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: Have you read Start of Darkness?
20:31:52 <wob_jonas> in particular, the crayon drawing part of it.
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20:33:03 <shachaf> Yes, but a long time ago
20:33:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: look at the crayon drawings.
20:33:28 <shachaf> I don't have a copy here
20:34:15 <wob_jonas> shachaf: on page 38, Redcloak narrates about the oppression of goblins. “Until one day, a goblin warlord arose who was not like the others of his clan. Born with violet skin, he was different.
20:35:41 <shachaf> OK.
20:35:50 <shachaf> It's a grammar thing, is all
20:37:04 <wob_jonas> […] [he took the title] The Dark One […] While his strength in battle was unmatched, he was revered also for being a wise and benevolent ruler to the goblins. He was able to unite many different tribes of goblinoids together into a single nation by encouraging them to treat each other as brothers and sisters,
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20:38:00 <wob_jonas> united by a common purpose: to build a lasting goblinoid civilizations. In their throne rooms, the monarchs of the human nations watched in fear as the humanoids being cooperating, forming the greatest military force that the northern continent had ever seen.”
20:40:50 <wob_jonas> Then it says later, “Over the centuries, certain powerful elves had managed to attract enough of a group of followers that they were able to become gods themselves. The elder gods had welcomed them with open arms, and allowed them autonomy to conduct affairs in elven lands.
20:41:19 <wob_jonas> Now, this horrific year of violence dedicated to a single man served to raise the Dark One's One's spirit, too. He became a god, in a pantheon of one.”
20:43:29 <wob_jonas> And later, the gods choose to not slay him immediately, “However, even those elder gods [the ones who convinced the rest to not kill the Dark One] were apparently uneasy with the Dark One, for they chose to hide certain divine knowledge from him…knowledge they had shared with the elven gods.”
20:45:01 <wob_jonas> Then it tells that the gods didn't tell the Dark One about the tangly one, but he found out about it on his own.
20:45:09 <wob_jonas> Possibly not everything about it though.
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20:46:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: so I for one think he's always purple, and his aura is always purple.
20:46:33 <shachaf> Sure.
20:46:33 <wob_jonas> The divine aura that is.
20:47:29 <wob_jonas> And later in SOD you find out that at that time, the Dark One only knew about one rift, the one that later became known as Lirian's gate.
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20:53:32 <Sgeo> The birth of olist http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?7333-The-Order-of-the-Stick
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21:37:33 <esowiki> [[ZeptoBasic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57784&oldid=44555 * B * (+36) /* Implementation */ allow to jump forward after an if
21:39:43 <esowiki> [[ZeptoBasic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57785&oldid=57784 * B * (+2) /* Factorial */ use "gt" instead of ">" for "greater than" comparison
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2018-09-30
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00:27:35 <andrewtheircguy> i have an idea
00:27:40 <andrewtheircguy> HQ9funge
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02:24:30 <zzo38> What tropes (such as those in All The Tropes wiki) might you use to describe the XYZABCDE.ZZT game? I made a partial list so far
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09:53:59 * Taneb morning
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14:16:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SealedKiller * New user account
14:18:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57786&oldid=57778 * SealedKiller * (+70)
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14:44:35 <wob_jonas> zzo38: that video processor you were designing, does it do 12 pixel wide tiles? it'd be nice to have something between 8 and 16 for some games.
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16:36:25 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Perhaps that will help, but I would have to figure out detail if how. I thought anyways of redesigning most of the registers, removing some and adding others (including to add support for a side bar)
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16:40:18 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not saying you have to do 12 px, because it's not easy, so it might not be worth.
16:40:45 <wob_jonas> zzo38: also, have you changed the palette and recolor handling since last time?
16:46:43 <zzo38> I haven't actually updated the document, but I do not remember if I have changed palette/recolor handling. I thought same thing though that 12 px might not be worth it (if you need it, you could do it in software, perhaps, either by treating it directly as a frame buffer or by using some other trick).
16:47:08 <zzo38> Can you describe if you intended something for palette/recolor handling?
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16:50:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not really sure. what bothers me is that IIRC in your design, tile and sprite images have to use 4 bits per pixel, but you could likely get away with just 4 colors in any one sprite and so 2 bits, like I think the SNES forces you, if you have some good subpalette selector mechanism, and if you could pull that off, then you could have mor
16:50:29 <wob_jonas> e memory or RAM space left for other useful stuff
16:50:54 <wob_jonas> But I could be wrong here, I don't really understand retro-hardware design and game graphics.
16:51:20 <zzo38> You could map multiple planes to the same addresses in my design, so that you do save memory by having only 2 bits or 1 bit
16:51:36 <wob_jonas> you can do that? nice
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18:19:51 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Minkizz * New user account
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18:22:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57787&oldid=57786 * Minkizz * (+224) I added a new line
18:23:04 <esowiki> [[User:Minkizz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57788 * Minkizz * (+204) Created page with "Hello, my name is Minkizz. I love esoteric programming languages and I want to create my own esoteric programming language, MINK++. It is currently in high development phases..."
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18:53:30 <esowiki> [[WHY]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57789 * Osmarks * (+1306) Created page with "WHY was created to illustrate to somebody that, compiled languages are not necessarily faster. Compiling WHY involves reading the WHY source file and then placing it in a C s..."
18:55:08 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57790&oldid=57789 * Osmarks * (+12)
18:55:34 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57791&oldid=57790 * Osmarks * (+1)
18:56:01 <esowiki> [[WHY]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57792&oldid=57791 * Osmarks * (+78)
18:58:44 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57793&oldid=57395 * Osmarks * (+78)
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19:38:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gamer * New user account
19:42:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57794&oldid=57787 * Gamer * (+230) /* Introductions */
19:58:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57795&oldid=57794 * Gamer * (+77) /* Introductions */
20:07:42 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57796 * Gamer * (+403) Created page with "'''''Hi, I'm Gamer.''''' (aka. Sagittarius) I'm most likely the youngest one here, at 12 years old. Nevertheless, esolangs are a very interesting concept to me and I hope to..."
20:11:42 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57797&oldid=57796 * Gamer * (-2)
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20:19:33 <esowiki> [[WHY]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57798&oldid=57792 * Gamer * (-3) Removed 3 commas.
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22:54:42 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57799 * Gamer * (+2530) Created page with "'''HQ9funge''' or '''HQ9FTC''' is an [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric programming language]] which was created purely to make the programmer's life worse. Currently, i..."
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23:40:34 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57800&oldid=57799 * Gamer * (+99)
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23:41:58 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57801&oldid=57800 * Gamer * (+27)
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23:50:54 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57802&oldid=57801 * Gamer * (+91)
23:52:55 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57803&oldid=57802 * Gamer * (+157)
23:53:41 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57804&oldid=57803 * Gamer * (+13) /* Commands */
23:54:40 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57805&oldid=57804 * Gamer * (-17) /* The Catch */
23:56:49 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57806&oldid=57805 * Gamer * (+153) /* The name of the language as a program in that language */
23:57:26 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57807&oldid=57806 * Gamer * (-16) /* The name of the language as a program in that language */
23:59:56 <esowiki> [[HQ9funge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57808&oldid=57807 * Gamer * (-144)
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