←2021-02 2021-03 2021-04→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-03-01
00:03:30 <fizzie> re2 is the default default regex engine.
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00:39:13 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81099&oldid=81098 * RetroPain * (+248)
00:40:56 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81100&oldid=81099 * RetroPain * (+46) /* implementations */
00:49:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Trump Bot * New user account
00:59:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's not how it works. non-greedy match can still be slow when it fails but tries everything to match
00:59:25 <shachaf> b_jonas: What's not how it works?
00:59:38 <shachaf> Non-greedy matching doesn't do what I want, and can still be slow, is what I said.
01:00:43 <b_jonas> ah good
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01:35:44 <esowiki> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81101&oldid=81100 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* Cat program */ Format
01:46:13 <nakilon> almost done
01:47:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81102&oldid=81043 * Trump Bot * (+109)
01:56:55 <nakilon> stupid CORS
01:57:10 <nakilon> can't fetch the file from the child domain
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03:19:59 <nakilon> FFS
03:20:15 <nakilon> https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/configuring-cors says: "ORIGIN is an origin allowed for cross origin resource sharing with this bucket. For example, example.appspot.com."
03:21:19 <nakilon> but only two pages below in the "Ensure that the request has an Origin header and that the header value matches ..." there is the correct format -- it needs "http://"
03:35:30 <nakilon> okay, done: http://www.nakilon.pro/esolang.htm?
03:36:05 <nakilon> note the "?" at the end of the url -- it might be needed during the next minutes/hour due to CDN cache
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03:39:11 <nakilon> this is weird: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Cell-based description mentions Befunge but it isn't in this category
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04:21:10 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81103&oldid=81101 * RetroPain * (+2) /* Cat program */
04:41:14 <esowiki> [[User:Nakilon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81104&oldid=79471 * Nakilon * (+126) added link to the "Esolang categories intersector"
05:08:36 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81105&oldid=81014 * Quintopia * (+162) added another example of B97 command.
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06:55:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ColorfulGalaxy * New user account
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07:00:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81106&oldid=81102 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+230)
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07:55:05 <Sgeo> John Shutt (creator of Kernel Lisp) died
08:05:31 <Sgeo> https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews_mourns_loss_of_volunteer_John_Shutt
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08:15:25 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81107 * Trump Bot * (+533) Also, please vote for the "Yes Smoking Day" (a holiday on November 31st as opposed to No smoking day) proposal
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13:04:37 <nakilon> guys maybe there is already such a language that I imagining right now?...
13:06:57 <nakilon> there is no stack, only the two layers: 1. the instructions layer, that is a source code like in any funge 2. the data layer where the stdin comes to and gets processed by the instructions
13:08:28 <nakilon> the layers exist directly one above another one, that is the stdin data byte-by-byte come to the left-top cell and then are moving automatically every tick to the direction it moved the last time, being processed by the instruction on the same coordinate from the instructions layer
13:10:34 <nakilon> so the data flows over the 2d code like in a 2d version of the http://www.zachtronics.com/infinifactory/
13:11:49 <nakilon> unlike the game, it's not 3d, there are only 2 layers (and probably no funge's toroidal jumping over the edges of the space, not sure yet)
13:12:41 <nakilon> and the instructions are > < v ^ : (dup) / -
13:13:21 <nakilon> so the flow of data through the space has to be used as stack if you need it
13:14:19 <nakilon> oh, and some conditional instruction that conditionally tramplines the byte
13:16:56 <nakilon> so if, for example, you want to push something "3 positions deeper to the stack" you take if out from the flow (the imaginary conveyor line over which the bytes are moving), move around and push from the side on the "conveyor" behind the following bytes
13:17:43 <nakilon> but idk how to make a random read from the flow
13:24:45 <nakilon> conditional and arithmetic instructions (/, -) are consuming one byte and editing the next byte letting it out on the next tick
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13:26:10 <nakilon> when two or more bytes are willing to get to the same coordinate they are prioritized by the order of appearance from the stdin
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13:28:17 <nakilon> the "/" "-" instructions, when they spawn a new byte, they give it the same priority that the last processed byte had; ":" inserts the new byte in between of priority queue
13:32:10 <nakilon> I'm now losing the understanding the difference between terms of the language and the VM that runs it
13:34:56 <nakilon> I mean, for example, Befunge -- the reference explanations of what the instructions do is a language I guess while the description of the space is a "Befunge machine", not a "Befunge language" I guess
13:40:06 <esowiki> [[User:RetroPain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81108&oldid=81076 * RetroPain * (+2) /* 2021 */
13:59:27 <nakilon> actually you can turn around and push some byte from the side onto the conditional instruction to make it to "knock out" some byte from the flow to other side
14:00:22 <nakilon> you don't even need to make free spaces to insert something into a tail because tail bytes have lower priority
14:00:37 <nakilon> but there should be some technic to compress the flow
14:01:35 <nakilon> oh no, nvm, it's not possible, you can't make the time go faster
14:02:46 <nakilon> but... there should be the way to stop the byte to make the next one reach it if it's delayed...
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14:53:03 <nakilon> found some bug in my scraping, some categories are showing as empty but they aren't
14:56:22 <nakilon> oh, those are categories of categories
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15:00:26 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Posibly%20turing%20complete -- this one has redirect to "unknown computational class"
15:00:34 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Possibly%20turing%20complete -- this one is "pending deletion
15:01:22 <nakilon> I suppose redirect should be on 2 or both to be deleted
15:02:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: frankly I don't understand your description of the semantics of that programming language with befunge-like arrows
15:04:25 <b_jonas> though I'm also not too interested in it
15:09:11 <nakilon> it's like the old flash game http://archeralex.github.io/manufactoria/
15:10:47 <nakilon> it has the (STD)IN and (STD)OUT and you program it to process the data in between that is essentially how zachtronics's games usually work too, I guess Manufactoria has inspired them some years ago
15:11:30 <nakilon> oh waaaaait, the Manufactoria was their game! http://thesiteformerlyknownas.zachtronicsindustries.com/manufactoria/
15:12:59 <nakilon> so my idea is like an adaptation of mechanics of that old game to the terminal world, i.e. working with real STDIN and STDOUT
15:15:20 <nakilon> ah, nope, it's not their game but was posted in their blog as a candidate for some weekly gamedev challenge or something
15:19:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Featured languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81109&oldid=50325 * RetroPain * (+134)
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15:58:51 <b_jonas> ok so there's a naming conflict. git now has a switch subcommand. (the docs say that it's experimental.) its name conflicts with an alias subcommand that I set up before git had that subcommand.
15:59:56 <b_jonas> I'm trying to figure out what I should do about this. luckily the rest of my aliases have sillier names and so probably won't have this problem.
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16:30:19 <b_jonas> fungot: of the places that Mary went, what is the ratio of those to which the lamb was sure to go?
16:30:19 <fungot> b_jonas: to write only..i dnt knw so i askd u for dis program but u didnt.i trusted u only na..i thaught i am angry
16:47:02 <nakilon> s/silly/esoteric
16:49:14 <b_jonas> nakilon: very well. the names of the aliases I have set up in my config are: logns logp bs whereami dicc lsref switch
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16:51:13 <b_jonas> bs doesn't stand for bullshit, (git bs) is an alias to (git status -bs)
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17:16:07 <int-e> fungot: what would happen if you were trained on nursery rhymes?
17:16:07 <fungot> int-e: v didnt start yet d..goin to start now, make me dinner and help me get it done soon mah.
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17:28:12 <fizzie> My only git alias is `log1 = log --oneline --decorate=full --graph`.
17:34:48 <int-e> changes=log -p --reverse ..origin, ci=commit
17:35:25 <int-e> probably barely used
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19:02:35 <nakilon> moved gist to a repo https://github.com/Nakilon/esolang and made a scheduled Github Action that will update the page every day
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19:55:29 <esowiki> [[FILO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81110&oldid=79785 * Qpliu * (+569) Rework language to be more usable for programming
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21:54:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Emerald * uploaded "[[File:1EA23DDC-40BC-4A30-A045-372C7A6B34D7.png]]"
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22:23:05 <nakilon> SSCAIT (Starcraft AI tournament) Finals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NS6LEPh-vc (starting somewhere around 40:00)
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22:39:16 <nakilon> two more recents videos on the channel are some Human vs AI matches
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23:32:42 <shachaf> int-e: Maybe you'll like this game that jix mentioned: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1471960/Room_to_Grow/
23:33:36 <fizzie> That reminds me of the Snakebird music.
23:34:44 <fizzie> But maybe that's just how block-pushing games are supposed to sound like.
23:37:18 <shachaf> Hmm, I don't know about the music, but the actual moving-around sound reminded me of Snakebird.
23:37:26 <shachaf> So much that I was wondering whether it was the same people or something.
23:48:59 <zzo38> Are block-pushing games supposed to have a specific style of music?
23:52:22 <zzo38> (Hero Mesh has a version of Piano Sonata No.11 Movement III by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, although you can substitute your own music if you want to.)
2021-03-02
00:05:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Possibly turing complete]]": Author request: content was: "Pending deletion", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Moon|Moon]]" ([[User talk:Moon|talk]])
00:06:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Posibly turing complete]]": unapproved/undiscussed category
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00:54:35 <esowiki> [[Em3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81112 * Emerald * (+213) Hell
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00:55:14 <esowiki> [[Em3]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81113&oldid=81112 * Emerald * (+26)
00:57:31 <esowiki> [[File:1EA23DDC-40BC-4A30-A045-372C7A6B34D7.png]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81114&oldid=81111 * Emerald * (-1) Blanked the page
01:04:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81115&oldid=71945 * Emerald * (+210) /* Please delete an image. */ new section
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02:44:14 <esowiki> [[Butterbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81116&oldid=71625 * Fwander * (+75)
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04:02:35 <esowiki> [[User:DGCK81LNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81117&oldid=79480 * DGCK81LNN * (-4) /* Befunge simple game Less or More */
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05:37:32 <int-e> shachaf: hmm maybe
06:02:20 <int-e> "The target audience would ideally bear through the frustration of having their initial attempts thwarted, and persevere until they figure out the solution for themselves. Because, outside of that interaction, there’s little joy to be had in Room to Grow." -- iow, it's a puzzle game :P
06:04:44 <int-e> @time int-e
06:04:47 <lambdabot> Local time for int-e is Tue Mar 2 07:04:44 2021
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12:42:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81118&oldid=70777 * Emerald * (+165) /* Admin list? */ new section
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13:11:12 <int-e> hmmm "To be fair I had no idea most sscanf implementations called strlen [...]" -- I'm surprised too. (cf. https://nee.lv/2021/02/28/How-I-cut-GTA-Online-loading-times-by-70/ )
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13:22:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81119&oldid=81118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+277) /* Admin list? */ Reply
13:27:40 <esowiki> [[*]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81120&oldid=79211 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) /* Random Number Generator between 0 and 2,147,483,647 */ Fix example
13:43:41 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81121&oldid=80764 * Kekcsi * (+297) about reverse tokenization
13:44:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know. I think the important part for game music is that the player should be able to change the volume or mute the game music separately from other sound effects of the game, so that if they want, they can listen to music from somewhere outside the game while still hearing the game sound effects.
13:45:12 <b_jonas> most games get this right these days.
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13:47:50 <TheLie> Some people might want to clearly hear the game sounds without music…
13:55:04 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81122&oldid=81121 * Kekcsi * (+116) /* Interpreted? */
14:01:48 <b_jonas> TheLie: that happens too, especially when the game interface is badly designed and a very low volume sound effect gives you an advantage that you can't get otherwise. this happened in Spelunky 2 on the cosmic ocean levels, both with the bubble pop sound effects and more importantly the bubble ambiant sound effects. in those cases, the interface should be fixed too, to give a visual clue and possibly a
14:01:54 <b_jonas> louder sound effect.
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14:43:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:1EA23DDC-40BC-4A30-A045-372C7A6B34D7.png]]": author request; also privacy violation
14:44:13 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81123&oldid=81115 * Ais523 * (+145) /* Please delete an image. */ done
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15:28:35 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81124&oldid=81122 * Kekcsi * (+36) deeper links
15:32:06 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81125&oldid=81124 * Kekcsi * (+51) /* The imeight language */
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18:57:13 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81126&oldid=80585 * Smjg * (+1) /* Terminates First */ rm spurious line breaks that were messing up the output
19:16:51 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81127&oldid=81028 * Mario * (+101)
19:19:40 <int-e> shachaf: okay, growing space is cute... and tricky
19:33:44 <int-e> let's see if the proton thing runs it on linux
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19:48:54 <int-e> yes, it does
19:53:47 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I agree, I should want to be able to change music and sound effects volume separately
20:04:48 <esowiki> [[2cmd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81128 * Mario * (+786) Created page with "<h1>2CMD...</h1> ...is an esoteric language with only two commands (<code> </code> and <code>&</code>) <hr> <code> </code> Just increments the TOS <hr> <code>&</code>, though..."
20:05:53 <esowiki> [[2CMD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81129 * Mario * (+18) Redirected page to [[2cmd]]
20:22:13 <int-e> shachaf: not looking for hints, but this one has me stumped: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/grow.jpg (last one left in the forest)
20:22:53 <int-e> (I'll probably figure it out eventually)
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20:29:19 <shachaf> What's the number?
20:29:38 <int-e> 21
20:30:30 <shachaf> I haven't done it yet.
20:30:35 <int-e> I actually expect it'll be easy in retrospect
20:32:41 <shachaf> Now I'm there.
20:34:18 <int-e> it's nice that the game has alternative routes
20:34:20 <shachaf> Solved.
20:34:33 <shachaf> Maybe I got lucky.
20:37:24 <shachaf> I definitely got lucky, because now I can't quite reproduce my solution, hmm.
20:46:27 <int-e> I hate when that happens
20:46:36 <shachaf> Oh, of course.
20:49:12 <shachaf> Wait, I just solved it a second time, said "aha, that was the trick", and now I can't reproduce it again.
20:58:27 <shachaf> Well, now I can reproduce it, at least.
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21:40:36 <int-e> ah, obvious in retrospect it is
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22:13:21 <zzo38> The level editor in my program worked before and now it doesn't work.
22:14:59 <nakilon> https://nullprogram.com/blog/2020/06/29/
22:15:08 <nakilon> ^ images are clickable videos
22:16:15 <nakilon> finally found a time to read the https://nullprogram.com/blog/2017/03/12/
22:18:34 <nakilon> 16:47:50 <TheLie> Some people might want to clearly hear the game sounds without music…
22:18:38 <nakilon> I play games without music
22:19:00 <nakilon> I wanna be aware of every noise that happens
22:20:09 <nakilon> and if the music is supposed to entertain me then it's not the best game if it does not entertain me with a gameplay enough
22:20:55 <nakilon> b_jonas damn, I can't reach the cosmic ocean yet
22:37:40 <zzo38> I had once figured out a cheat code to disable the music in Super Mario Land, although I no longer have that.
22:37:47 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/E Awards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81130&oldid=80926 * Emerald * (+193) winner determined
22:40:03 <zzo38> Pokemon de Panepon has a music switch and sound switch option, but they are hidden; go to the option menu, move the cursor to the "gallery" option (the last one), and then push SELECT and A buttons together, and then another menu will come up with music switch and sound switch, and other options (including one to adjust the maximum number of digits in the score; I don't know why).
23:02:08 <esowiki> [[User:Emerald/sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81131&oldid=77746 * Emerald * (+754) Em3
23:03:50 <esowiki> [[Em3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81132&oldid=81113 * Emerald * (-156) Redirected page to [[User:Emerald/sandbox#Em3]]
23:22:13 <zzo38> I found the mistake in my program; it was just one character wrong, in a numeric constant. Such things can happen.
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23:24:08 <nakilon> zzo38 #define ZERO 1
23:24:13 <nakilon> *NULL
23:31:38 <zzo38> This can be either due to typing the wrong number even though you know which number is correct, or due to writing the number that you believed to be correct, but later figured out that a different number is better. In my case, it is the latter; I had 0x20 but 0xC0 is correct, so I changed it to that and now it works OK. (It has to do with the variant of RLE used in this program.)
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2021-03-03
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00:21:04 <fizzie> fungot: Everything all right?
00:21:04 <fungot> fizzie: after u log in skype. will talk later
00:21:09 <fizzie> Guess so.
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01:09:50 <esowiki> [[Iavac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81133&oldid=66746 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+75) /* Special Addresses (memory mapping) */ cats
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01:36:21 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81134&oldid=58688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+819) /* Fibonacci Sequence */ Categories, Interpeeter
01:36:46 <esowiki> [[Rotten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81135&oldid=81134 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreter */ cat
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02:35:26 <nakilon> updated: 2021-03-03 00:38:24 +0000
02:35:43 <nakilon> looks like Github Action cron isn't very precise
02:35:52 <nakilon> (it's 0 0 * * *)
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03:48:46 <zzo38> Do you like the syntax of Free Hero Mesh?
03:51:59 <zzo38> Do you like tsume shogi or any chess problems?
04:08:28 <zzo38> (I have a tsume shogi game on my computer, I have figured out some of them)
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04:31:01 <zzo38> Why are many programs not documented very well?
04:31:35 <zzo38> I try to use some program, but sometimes it is difficult because it is not documented.
04:37:07 <esowiki> [[Magicard!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81136&oldid=45996 * Quintopia * (+0) typo
04:41:47 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81137&oldid=80635 * Erinius * (+126)
04:51:29 <shachaf> Sgeo: https://ajxs.me/blog/Giving_Ada_a_chance.html
04:51:35 <shachaf> How's your Ada going?
04:53:45 <Sgeo> I haven't looked in Ada at a long time, but that blog post's mentioning of embedded stuff makes me wonder if there's an Ada compiler for Commodore 64
04:54:02 <shachaf> `? sgeolang
04:54:07 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
05:12:48 <esowiki> [[SetBang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81138&oldid=49070 * Erinius * (+82)
07:25:29 <nakilon> didn't read science fiction for like15 years
07:26:04 <nakilon> there must be some post-apocaliptic novel about robots on the Earth withuot humans
07:30:30 <nakilon> lol, wtf https://i.imgur.com/yZJBXRu.png
07:31:47 <nakilon> some advertisment, this picture is supposed to be about the "industrial revolution"
07:43:13 <zzo38> I managed to solve the first 100 out of 200 levels of tsume shogi so far.
07:45:21 <zzo38> It is a similar game to chess.
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08:30:00 <Sgeo> Suddenly I want to play Logication again
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13:24:22 <esowiki> [[Self%ify]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81139 * Mario * (+1678) Created page with "<h1>SELF%IFY...</h1> Is unique because the source, STDIN, and STDOUT are all the same, however, this does not remove any abilities, and if anything, actually <em>adds</em> to..."
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13:43:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Mario * moved [[2cmd]] to [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]]: Name change
13:44:12 <esowiki> [[2cmd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81142&oldid=81141 * Mario * (-57) Blanked the page
13:45:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Mario * moved [[2cmd]] to [[Empty page]]
13:50:15 <esowiki> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81145&oldid=81140 * Mario * (+64)
13:51:02 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Mario * moved [[Empty page]] to [[TPCAR]]
13:51:43 <esowiki> [[TPCAR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81148&oldid=81146 * Mario * (+57) Redirected page to [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of a Robbery]]
13:52:18 <esowiki> [[TPCAR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81149&oldid=81148 * Mario * (+0) Changed redirect target from [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of a Robbery]] to [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]]
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14:27:48 <esowiki> [[User:Mario]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81150&oldid=81127 * Mario * (+1)
14:40:00 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81151&oldid=80531 * Bo Tie * (+150) turing complete, cool
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15:30:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[2CMD]]": Broken redirect
15:30:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JustJude * New user account
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15:38:26 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81152&oldid=81151 * Bo Tie * (+82)
15:39:11 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81153&oldid=81106 * JustJude * (+105) /* Introductions */
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16:25:48 <arseniiv> TIL about a xor linked list
16:26:07 <arseniiv> that’s fabulous though I probably won’t need that trick ever
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16:28:08 <arseniiv> I presume one can traverse the list in increments of ±1, …, ±(2^n − 1) by adding xor-link fields for increments of 2, 4 and so on?
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16:32:01 <fizzie> Sounds likely, but it'd make any deletions and insertions real expensive.
16:32:23 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "real" expensive, but anyway more complex.
16:33:50 <arseniiv> hm no, it seems several layers don’t help each other: say we came to 4 from 2, then we can come to 6 but we can’t come to 3 or 5
16:34:42 <arseniiv> or we probably need to change what we xor together, when we make several layers, hm
16:35:31 <arseniiv> like one layer is ±1, the other is ±1 and ±2, the third is ±1 and ±2 and ±4
16:35:46 <arseniiv> hm, not much help though
16:36:41 <arseniiv> so that list is more of a curio
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17:47:57 <esowiki> [[LongDick]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81154 * Cybertelx * (+1340) Longest dick.
17:53:18 <esowiki> [[User:Cybertelx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81155&oldid=79204 * Cybertelx * (+94)
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18:23:24 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> I presume one can traverse the list in increments of ±1, …, ±(2^n − 1) by adding xor-link fields for increments of 2, 4 and so on?" => I don't think you can do that. even in theory.
18:23:39 <b_jonas> not even for just traversing an existing list.
18:24:41 <b_jonas> ah I see I'm slow, you already realized that
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18:52:33 <fizzie> I mean, you could go all the way using the skip links, you just couldn't transition into a smaller step size (without extra "conversion" links that'd probably defeat the point).
18:53:43 <fizzie> I imagine you could have a xor-linked list where every N'th node is a special "fat" node that has as extra fields one xor-linked list of the fat nodes, and one field holding (prev-fat ^ next-skinny) so that you can "step down", though.
18:54:19 <fizzie> (Or step up, if you're coming from the neighbouring skinny node.)
19:24:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah. or just use a balanced tree.
19:24:42 <b_jonas> I prefer balanced tree.
19:25:05 <b_jonas> but I must admit, a skip list has some practicality
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20:48:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kefalonia * New user account
20:51:54 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81156&oldid=81153 * Kefalonia * (+211) Hello, I am Fotis. I'm behind Linux's Coffee Howto with SBN2 and I generally experiment with SBN2, SBN3 & SBN4 oisc models.
20:59:33 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81157&oldid=80733 * Kefalonia * (+231) explain SBN variants
21:00:42 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81158&oldid=81157 * Kefalonia * (+4) aka. subneg in a more readable place
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21:12:49 * int-e wonders whether Growing Space is NP-hard (what I've seen so far is in NP simply because the solution length is bounded by the level size)
21:13:43 <int-e> hah
21:13:47 <int-e> Room to Grow, I mean
21:16:41 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81159&oldid=74666 * Kefalonia * (+378) explaining sbn
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21:25:17 <shachaf> Interesting, that does limit it more than Sokoban.
21:25:52 <shachaf> I like the property that you can (mostly) read the transcript of the solution from a picture of the final state.
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21:58:14 <nakilon> 19:25:48 <arseniiv> TIL about a xor linked list
21:58:15 <nakilon> TIL
21:59:00 <nakilon> and about doing larger steps
21:59:39 <nakilon> there was one ICFPC about digging the ground and collecting the gold
22:00:53 <nakilon> the 1st place was taken by a team of one who was coding in C++ and he used such lists that had 2^n length links
22:01:11 <nakilon> or that wasn't even a list, that was a tree
22:01:56 <nakilon> idk how he decided how many steps back he needed but it was said that was an important optimizing thing
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22:13:45 <zzo38> I suppose so. I have not played the game, although I saw the animation, and I can see how the game is working.
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22:55:40 <esowiki> [[SBN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81160&oldid=81159 * Kefalonia * (+291) provide URLs
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23:38:59 <zzo38> Do any ICFP contest winners using assembly language, or any programming language they make up themself, or any esoteric programming language? Has anyone used it without winning?
2021-03-04
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00:15:55 <Sgeo> Got a weird PM again
00:17:17 <nakilon> send it to 4 friends
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00:43:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:TheSingularity]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81161 * Emerald * (+141) /* Help! */ new section
00:46:28 <hendursaga> or enemies
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04:17:18 <zzo38> How should be made a programming language for defining solitaire card games? I had a few ideas about it, but not all.
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05:19:45 <nakilon> maybe wiki has examples
05:21:32 <shachaf> zzo38: What are your ideas?
05:21:39 <shachaf> `quote octopus
05:21:41 <HackEso> 179) <zzo38> Invent the game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" (these names are just generated by randomly) \ 208) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least.
05:22:03 <shachaf> Can your language express Sandwich - The Card Game and Professional Octopus of the World?
05:24:13 <zzo38> shachaf: You can define different kind of objects, including zones, games, and commands, and you can define rules such as movable and receivable for each zone, which are pure functions of the game and will be true or false, and events, and optionally global variables. For example, in Freecell, the free cells can each receive one card when empty. This might be "vac&:1" or maybe the syntax might differ.
05:25:06 <zzo38> If "Sandwich - The Card Game" and "Professional Octopus of the World" are solitaire card games, then it is expected that they would be implementable. (It is OK if it uses a subset of the common deck, multiple decks, or a different deck such as a tarot deck; it is not limited to a common deck of cards.)
05:26:22 <nakilon> `quote rasel
05:26:23 <HackEso> No output.
05:29:01 <zzo38> Do you have better ideas?
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06:11:05 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81162&oldid=81054 * Salpynx * (+620) /* Implementations */ Lazy K implementation, and alpha-sort sections
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08:13:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81163&oldid=81107 * Trump Bot * (+197)
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08:47:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81164&oldid=81163 * Trump Bot * (+188)
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09:33:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SansCipher * New user account
09:35:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81165&oldid=81156 * SansCipher * (+163) /* Introductions */
09:36:22 <esowiki> [[User:SansCipher]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81166 * SansCipher * (+75) Created page with "Things I like: Programming Obscure topics Things I don't like: Lists Irony"
09:37:16 <esowiki> [[User:SansCipher]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81167&oldid=81166 * SansCipher * (+20)
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11:22:40 <wib_jonas> shachaf: "Sandwich" is one common word, so it is already used as the name of a card game: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/80933/sandwich . That's from 2012, when is the quote from?
11:29:53 <wib_jonas> The quote is revision 0, which is from 2012 where the HackEso repo in the live HackEso was cut, so it might precede that card game
11:30:13 <wib_jonas> "Professional Octopus of the World" is a good one, seems unused so far
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13:58:56 <shachaf> Well, the relevant name isn't "Sandwich", it's "Sandwich - The Card Game".
14:00:53 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is grammaphobic.
14:00:56 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is grammaphobic.
14:01:55 <wib_jonas> shachaf: makes sense, you could absolutely have a video game based on a real or fictional card game called "Sandwich - The Card Game" or perhaps even an anime based on a fictional card game called "Sandwich - The Card Game"
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15:53:42 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81168&oldid=80793 * Not applicable * (+258) add stupidpaint
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17:39:24 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81169&oldid=57025 * Zero player rodent * (+669)
17:40:29 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81170&oldid=81066 * Zero player rodent * (+21)
17:43:26 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81171&oldid=81169 * Zero player rodent * (-340)
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18:47:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JustJude * uploaded "[[File:Bread.png]]": An anatomically accurate image of a loaf bread
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19:24:19 <UstinLVO> Hello. Do you know any esolang whose character set is restricted to DEC SIXBIT? Except Brainfuck and similar Turing tarpits - I'm looking for something like GolfScript
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20:09:27 <int-e> shachaf: have you encountered 60 degree angles in Room to Grow?
20:11:02 <int-e> > (24+1+3+0+27+1+3+1+20, 24+1+5+1+31+1+5+1+38+1)
20:11:04 <lambdabot> (80,108)
20:11:39 <int-e> > 80/108*100
20:11:42 <lambdabot> 74.07407407407408
20:13:40 <int-e> (108 is the expected number of stars to earn... that I can see, maybe there are surprise levels somewhere)
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20:35:38 <arseniiv> things like “if (x == y) return x; else return NULL;” (say) make me unsuccesfully contemplating how to make the code truly symmetric with regard to x and y
20:37:08 <UstinLVO> symmetric?
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20:37:29 <UstinLVO> if (x == y) return (x | y); else return NULL;
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20:37:54 <arseniiv> UstinLVO: that won’t do for x, y of arbitrary type!
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20:38:44 <arseniiv> unfortunately
20:38:48 <UstinLVO> hm
20:38:54 <esolang5784937> Open esolang question: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/48349/is-this-variant-of-bitwise-cyclic-tag-turing-complete
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20:41:02 <arseniiv> there are inefficient variants like “xs = sort([x, y]); return len(xs) == 1 ? xs[0] : NULL” (btw that’s just a C-like syntax, I picked it for universality)
20:41:42 <arseniiv> oops that doesn’t work like I meant
20:41:51 <arseniiv> we need take something like set([x, y])
20:43:00 <arseniiv> this will be an actually good thing when there are arbitrarily many elements, and also it works as expected when there are 0 and 1 elements
20:43:22 <arseniiv> but for the special case of two or a handful of elements, well…
20:44:15 <arseniiv> I think maybe languages would be better to have some form of that thing as a primitive
20:48:39 <arseniiv> hm now that I think of it, by default there *is* asymmetry, x and y may be equal but have different representations, even if not observable by us in any way
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21:34:49 <esowiki> [[Maybe Later]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81173&oldid=52953 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+240) /* Examples */ Truth-machine; headers
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22:32:38 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arabica * New user account
22:34:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81174&oldid=81165 * Arabica * (+66) /* Introductions */
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22:38:24 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81175 * Arabica * (+227) Created page with "I have made an EsoLang called "Eon". Classes are: name(args) -> propety = "This is how you make a class!, also tab indentation is important." Varibles Are name = value Fun..."
22:38:58 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81176&oldid=81175 * Arabica * (+12)
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22:40:26 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81177&oldid=81176 * Arabica * (-5)
22:42:49 <esowiki> [[User:Arabica]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81178&oldid=81177 * Arabica * (+163)
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23:46:25 <shachaf> int-e: Oops, missed that.
23:46:40 <shachaf> Nope, last new mechanic I saw was steps of different sizes.
23:47:26 <shachaf> I finished all of Forest but I think only about half of Mountain so far, and just a bit of Desert.
23:47:33 <int-e> shachaf: Okay, it's just a bit further in the desert.
23:47:44 <int-e> I finished Forest+ in the meantime.
23:48:21 <int-e> o the 3+0 is 5+1 now; the rest is unchanged
23:48:27 <shachaf> I haven't done any of that yet.
23:48:59 <int-e> anyway, it is a cute puzzle game
23:49:13 <int-e> not quite as epic as the monstrous one
23:49:22 <shachaf> arseniiv: i,i if let z = unify(x, y) return z; else return NULL;
23:50:29 <arseniiv> shachaf: this is good! I thought about something like this but didn’t came to think it’s actually just unification
23:50:54 <shachaf> Where by "unify" I mean, hmm, something that returns the value if both arguments are equal, otherwise fails.
23:51:06 <shachaf> So of course the implementation of unify still needs to do the thing you don't like.
23:51:23 <shachaf> Anyway introducing a new name is "symmetric" but seems worse to me than using x.
23:51:40 <arseniiv> <shachaf> So of course the implementation of unify still needs to do the thing you don't like. => yep that’s the catch too :(
23:52:08 <shachaf> I guess you can imagine this as a string diagram sort of thing, where unify takes two input and has one (unlabeled) output.
23:52:32 <shachaf> I guess that sort of corresponds to linear types, where unify consumes both its arguments, or something.
23:53:21 <arseniiv> hmmm interesting link
23:54:01 <shachaf> Anyway these are all bad answers.
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2021-03-05
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01:04:23 <zzo38> Do you ever make up your own puzzle games too?
01:12:59 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81179&oldid=79963 * Nailuj29 * (+9) add new website
01:13:26 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81180&oldid=81179 * Nailuj29 * (-4) im dumb
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03:24:35 <Sgeo> Attempting to use a Repl in an undocumented language from 1996 is not the easiest thing in the world
03:24:43 <Sgeo> I can't even figure out the #help command
03:25:02 <Sgeo> ? brings up help and says that #help does the same. #help doesn't work
03:42:54 <zzo38> What programming language is that?
03:47:41 <shachaf> Sgeo: Man, Ada has some pretty fancy features!
03:47:47 <shachaf> Why didn't you tell me about them sooner?
03:48:01 <shachaf> For example, in addition to having generic types, it has generic packages.
03:48:11 <shachaf> So you can parameterize an entire package on a type.
03:49:38 <Sgeo> zzo38, ActiveVRML
03:50:29 <kmc> oh wow VRML
03:50:32 <kmc> that's a blast from the past
03:51:16 <Sgeo> ActiveVRML is distinct from VRML. ActiveVRML was Microsoft's proposal for what VRML 2 should look like. It was rejected in favor of a proposal called "Moving Worlds"
03:52:08 <Sgeo> I ... think ActiveVRML's core concepts were eventually incorporated into Microsoft Chrome and Chromeffects, then Silverlight. Not sure though
03:52:27 <Sgeo> BTW there's a very good WebGL-based VRML viewer called X_ITE
03:53:23 <kmc> cool
03:54:11 <kmc> let me know if you ever find a copy of the "mmmm Yummy Schnitzel" VRML world
03:55:10 * Sgeo mentions that in Flashpoint discord
03:55:35 <Sgeo> I added 3 VRML plugins to Flashpoint, although someone else has been doing most VRML curations
03:55:48 <kmc> i wonder if i could ever find the HTML tutorial websites I made on Angelfire when I was in middle school
03:57:02 <kmc> what's Flashpoint?
03:58:15 <Sgeo> https://bluemaxima.org/flashpoint/ project that started to archive all Flash games and allow them to be played easily, has now branched out into a lot of various web techs
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04:05:06 <fizzie> Ooh, VRML (and derivatives).
04:05:37 <fizzie> There was an official VRML model of Helsinki at some point, I think, as part of some celebration of whatever.
04:06:47 <Sgeo> kmc https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/714335844940513342/817246501691981884/unknown.png ?
04:06:51 <fizzie> There was also a web chat site of a local radio station that didn't sanitize HTML in messages, so you could embed the virtual city in the chat, and it would pretty much obliterate all the lower-spec computers. Or something along those lines.
04:08:18 <kmc> Sgeo: looks right
04:08:30 <kmc> now is there a way for me to interact with it
04:08:32 <kmc> including audio
04:08:46 <fizzie> https://web.archive.org/web/19980210093427/http://www.xgw.fi/biz/arcussoft/vhki.htm -- over a megabyte!
04:15:08 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81181&oldid=74572 * Salpynx * (-3) /* Contemporary */ backslash to output expr register does not have to be in a string
04:23:36 <Sgeo> The audio wasn't archived. Would have been at http://www.vruniverse.com/vrml/schnitzel/schnitzel.wav
04:27:01 <Sgeo> Unless you have it in cache somewhere?
04:31:59 <Sgeo> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/459969018082754560/817252600108810260/Wiener_Schnitzel.7z
04:33:23 <Sgeo> This won't be in Flashpoint proper until after it updates, whenever that is (could be months from now), but you could import this into Flashpoint now. I don't know how well it works on non-Windows though. There is a support channel for it and I'm sure people played with WINE. Or you could extract the files and use a VRML viewer
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05:36:41 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81182&oldid=78889 * Trump Bot * (+149)
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06:49:22 <nakilon> > 1.0
06:49:24 <lambdabot> 1.0
06:49:30 <nakilon> > 1/0
06:49:32 <lambdabot> Infinity
06:49:41 <nakilon> > 0.0/0.0
06:49:43 <lambdabot> NaN
06:50:12 <nakilon> > 0.0/0.0/0.0
06:50:15 <lambdabot> NaN
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07:57:26 <zzo38> Are any solitaire card games including jokers?
08:10:32 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81183&oldid=80497 * ReplayShells * (+324)
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08:22:20 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81184&oldid=81183 * ReplayShells * (+186)
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09:29:17 <shachaf> int-e: Oh man, this 60° angle thing is awful.
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09:35:55 <shachaf> Ah, I like level 22.
09:37:33 <shachaf> Oh man. 24 is making this all wackadoodle.
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12:06:49 <int-e> shachaf: Ah you have surpassed me there... I went back to other areas, desert 21-23 are still unsolved
12:07:12 <shachaf> I assume you've done many more levels than I have, I was just curious about what's ahead.
12:10:11 <int-e> makes sense
12:11:12 <int-e> 87/108 is my count (including 5 stars from the level sets themselves)
12:11:41 <int-e> s/stars/potential stars/
12:12:23 <shachaf> Uh oh.
12:12:29 <shachaf> I haven't done any Forest+ or anything+.
12:13:20 <shachaf> Too bad Steam and this game takes forever to start up.
12:19:17 <int-e> I have put over 6 hours into the game too
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13:02:19 <int-e> shachaf: Ah I see what you mean about 24 :)
13:02:44 <int-e> I guess it was to be expected
13:02:44 <shachaf> It looks like that's the point where the real puzzles start, or something.
13:03:32 <int-e> since the common theme among varying lengths and varying angles are arbitrary vectors
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13:04:27 <int-e> Hmm I didn't express that very well.
13:06:42 <shachaf> Next it'll have you solve lattice reduction problems.
13:20:39 <int-e> 25 did that already :P
13:21:19 <int-e> I've also noticed that you can push the cactus out of bounds... so it's no longer obvious that the puzzle is in NP.
13:21:52 <int-e> "bounds" being the border of the screen
13:23:03 <shachaf> Ah, interesting, I don't think I saw that yet.
13:24:26 <int-e> I think up to this point all puzzles have been fully enclosed
13:47:28 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81185&oldid=80493 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+389) Implementation, Category
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14:35:13 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81186&oldid=81171 * Zero player rodent * (+19)
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17:20:13 <int-e> shachaf: okay, reached the end, finished Mountains{,+} and only 8 Desert levels left...
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18:08:16 <b_jonas> [ 30*300
18:08:17 <j-bot> b_jonas: 9000
18:12:43 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81187&oldid=81186 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
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23:47:14 <int-e> shachaf: All grown up, 108/108 stars :)
23:47:35 <shachaf> That's a lot of stars!
23:48:39 <int-e> 9.9h according to Steam
23:50:01 <int-e> shachaf: well, as mentioned before, every level and every level set shows a star when completed... there's no display of that number anywhere though.
23:54:08 <int-e> it's a surprisingly good puzzle game I find... if not the most difficult. It has a good difficulty curve, it allows progress without solving all puzzles and somehow it stopped before the puzzles felt repetetive.
23:55:14 <int-e> On the downside the growing process is hard to visualize so there's a lot of trial and error in favor of planning and thinking
23:55:48 <int-e> But maybe that's how it becomes less repetitive? Hard to say.
23:57:29 <shachaf> When the angles started getting wackadoodle I felt like I needed a lot of trial and error especially.
23:57:40 <shachaf> Just to know where the head lands after a few operations.
2021-03-06
00:00:49 <int-e> yeah. though you can use vector addition to prune the search space a lot
00:18:55 <Sgeo> What game?
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00:28:22 <shachaf> Room to Grow
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00:59:30 <int-e> (steam, not itch.io)
01:00:31 <int-e> (I found 3 games with that name in total)
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01:16:13 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81188&oldid=81184 * ReplayShells * (+104) Add HQ9+ short
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02:04:53 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81189&oldid=80958 * Digital Hunter * (+1353) /* Example programs */ added a square root calculator program
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02:43:04 <zzo38> I thought of other ideas about programming language for solitaire card game too, such as the possibility of static analysis, which can be used to classify open games, and possibly other things. If it is written as predicates for each zone, then it can also easily be checked that there are no more legal moves, or if there is more than one way to make a specific kind of move, just by trying each one.
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02:43:32 <zzo38> A specialized programming language also makes such things as save games, undo, etc, implementing more easily than using a general purpose programming language.
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05:09:40 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81190&oldid=77000 * Heavpoot * (-139)
05:09:49 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81191&oldid=81190 * Heavpoot * (+30)
05:25:28 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81192&oldid=81191 * Heavpoot * (+2497)
05:25:43 <esowiki> [[Macron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81193 * Heavpoot * (+26) Created page with "[[Macron]] does not exist."
05:26:11 <esowiki> [[Bee literally apioforming informational page]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81194 * Heavpoot * (+85) Created page with "[[Bee literally apioforming informational page]] is a WIP esolang documentation page."
05:35:12 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81195&oldid=79300 * Heavpoot * (+66) Undo revision 79215 by [[Special:Contributions/Int-e|Int-e]] ([[User talk:Int-e|talk]])
05:36:13 <esowiki> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81196&oldid=81195 * Heavpoot * (+1) remove osmarks.tk from existence and collective human memory retroactively, update to osmarks.net
05:41:10 <esowiki> [[Pig]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81197&oldid=45995 * Heavpoot * (+169) categories
05:47:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81198&oldid=81164 * Heavpoot * (+136)
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05:54:58 <Heav> hello. is anyone here?
06:01:05 <kmc> nope
06:03:25 <zzo38> I am on, now.
06:03:38 <zzo38> Do you have a better question?
06:06:40 <esowiki> [[MUSYS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81199&oldid=81181 * Salpynx * (+0) /* Historical */ Fix typo copied from original source (Blog).
06:08:27 <Heav> no, only worse ones.
06:10:22 <kmc> that's too bad
06:28:11 <zzo38> I asked before about a level export format. Now I came up with this: http://sprunge.us/ZZugOV It isn't JSON or CSV, but it does seems a simple enough text based format. (The internal format for storing levels is different and much smaller files; this is just the export format. Also, the internal format has one field (the "level version" field) which is not present in the export format.)
06:29:40 <zzo38> Do you like this?
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07:16:38 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81200&oldid=81198 * Trump Bot * (+174)
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08:18:11 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81201&oldid=81105 * Quintopia * (-35) bug fix thx jo king
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08:56:04 <kritixilithos> looks like that cstheory question's been answered
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12:20:00 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81202&oldid=81126 * Smjg * (+0) /* Semantics of + */ sp
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13:00:12 <kritixilithos> looks like that cstheory question's been answered
13:00:20 <kritixilithos> oops accident
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13:53:20 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81203&oldid=76728 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Language overview */ Spacing
13:55:54 <esowiki> [[Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81204&oldid=81203 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) /* Language overview */ Why were there equal signs?
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2021-03-07
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05:48:16 <esowiki> [[Patternfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81205&oldid=80172 * Robolta * (+22) /* Overview */
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05:50:21 <zzo38> I think some time ago someone mentioned two dimensional regular expressions. I had thought of some ideas about that too, because I intended to add a similar feature into Free Hero Mesh.
05:58:36 <kmc> that's an interesting idea
05:58:39 <kmc> how does it work?
06:00:47 <zzo38> What I had is that it contains directions, which can be relative or absolute. It can also have loops and alternation like ordinary regular expressions, as well as some other things, such as callouts.
06:05:21 <zzo38> So, the basic idea is not so difference from one dimensional regular expressions, except that the match can be in any direction and can change directions too.
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12:42:10 <fizzie> Bleh. I've got this automated backup thing that reads org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.IdleHint and .IdleSinceHint to only run when the computer's been idle for at least two hours, but now it's somehow broken again and thinks it hasn't been idle since Feb 28.
12:42:18 <fizzie> I've been unable to find any real documentation how exactly "idleness" is measured.
12:43:54 <int-e> . o O ( maybe you need to set up a cron job that resets the idle counter )
12:45:06 * int-e knows nothing about this business.
12:45:37 <fizzie> It used to "just work", so I didn't bother trying to figure out how exactly it knows.
12:45:58 <fizzie> I think it's got something to do with logind "sessions".
12:47:46 <fizzie> There are per-session idle hints as well, and looks like I've got two active sessions, one of which says it's been non-idle since I woke up (fair enough), and the other which says it's been non-idle since Feb 27, so it's presumably that other session that's the problem.
12:49:18 <fizzie> Both of the sessions say they are "lightdm-xsession" sessions on the same display (:0). The okay-behaving one says it's in "active" state, but the other's in "closing" state.
12:49:46 <fizzie> So I guess that probably means there's some lingering process that got started in the "old" session that's keeping it alive.
12:51:23 <int-e> Hmm... loginctl show-session? Ah, unsurprisingly that hint shows my login time. :P
12:52:21 <int-e> (I just have a plain fvwm2 which I suspect is too old for this crap, or maybe would need some more gnome* stuff to support this.)
12:53:21 <fizzie> I've got a reasonably "plain" XMonad as well, but I think either xss-lock or xsecurelock does the necessary magic to mark it as idle when it's locked.
12:54:10 <fizzie> I imagine there's some way to see which processes are part of "session-2.scope", so I could figure out why that other session is still in "closing" state.
12:54:57 <fizzie> Ah, `systemctl status session-2.scope`
12:56:22 <fizzie> Shows there's a CGroup that contains `adb -L tcp:5037 fork-server server --reply-fd 4` in it. So I guess I did some adb stuff, then restarted X (I vaguely remember doing that for some reason), and that thing stayed there.
12:56:28 <fizzie> Too much magic.
12:57:08 <fizzie> Yep, after `adb kill-server` the other session has now closed. Mystery solved, *and* complaining about it to IRC helped again.
12:59:01 <int-e> wait... where'd my xdm go
13:03:02 <int-e> there we go... systemctl said it got killed by SIGUSR2 on startup? and it didn't clean up its lock file, grmbl.
13:04:24 <int-e> but I bet xdm won't do anything about keeping track of idle states either :)
13:06:04 <int-e> Ah, but this way it's honest about it: IdleHint=no
13:06:05 <fizzie> Probably not. I think it's xss-lock doing it for me, for the record.
13:06:25 <int-e> Whereas before I guess it tracked activity in the shell where I did startx.
13:06:44 <int-e> (unsurprisingly, there was no such activity at all)
13:07:06 <fizzie> At least it's got a `static void logind_session_set_idle_hint(gboolean idle);` function in the code.
13:07:26 <fizzie> IdleHint is a boolean where false ("no"?) means "not idle". IdleSinceHint says when the IdleHint was last changed.
13:09:14 <int-e> I see. Okay, let's `watch` this while I get myself some food :)
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14:13:20 <int-e> Oh well, it's not idle yet.
14:13:52 <int-e> fizzie: arguably you should be checking all sessions. but it's also bad that that adb kept running
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14:57:27 <esowiki> [[Sploosh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81206&oldid=77677 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Hello World example (or Jello Woqld, or Fello Wollf, or many other unpredictable results) */ Format; wbr
15:06:17 <esowiki> [[Sploosh]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81207&oldid=81206 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Some looping and array examples */ Format, wbr
15:13:44 <esowiki> [[Immi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81208&oldid=25976 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* what did (variable name) say? */ Format
15:15:22 <esowiki> [[Immi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81209&oldid=81208 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Commands */ Format
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16:13:57 <fizzie> int-e: There's a "global" idle hint (/org/freedesktop/login1, org.freedesktop.login1.Manager.Idle(Since)Hint) that combines the information from all sessions; that's the one I'm checking. AFAICT it's idle iff all sessions are idle, that's why the state=closing session was blocking the backups.
16:14:53 <int-e> oh, I misunderstood then, I thought that session counted as idle
16:15:32 <fizzie> Nah, I think it only counts as idle if something explicitly sets it as idle, and there was nothing running in there that could.
16:16:12 <fizzie> Hmm, while the X session is idle because xss-lock sets it so, I wonder how/why SSH sessions become idle too. Because I've occasionally had an SSH session open for weeks/months, and the backups haven't stalled.
16:16:30 <int-e> so it's all adb's fault then for running in the background without dissociating itself from the session (do cgroups even allow that thoug; maybe not, it could easily break containers...)
16:17:15 <fizzie> It could stop the server when the session gets closed. I think some kind of a signal is even sent for that? But maybe it ignores that.
16:18:02 <int-e> The upshot is... I have a few pieces of these puzzles but no picture of how they fit together as a whole.
16:18:54 <fizzie> Same here. I opened a SSH session, and it's IdleHint = False, IdleSinceHint = time of login.
16:19:53 <fizzie> (Which makes sense, since what else could it be, but how's that not blocking the backups then?)
16:23:29 <fizzie> A random systemd github issue suggests logind detects idleness for sessions with a TTY by watching the mtime of the associated TTy device (!), so maybe it becomes idle if that crosses some threshold.
16:31:06 <fizzie> ...okay, I got sidetracked by all these other DBus interfaces that this graphical introspection tool (`d-feet`) is showing. I can see my mouse's battery charging level here!
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19:16:08 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81210&oldid=80374 * Not applicable * (+576) added notes
19:26:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Largejamie * New user account
19:28:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81211&oldid=81174 * Largejamie * (+117) /* Introductions */
19:29:19 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81212&oldid=81211 * Largejamie * (+89) /* Introductions */
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19:39:41 <fizzie> Yeah, that untouched SSH session had indeed become idle. And when I pressed a key in it, it became non-idle. So it does Just Work™ for TTY-type sessions.
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20:31:51 <int-e> and I guess it worked that way in UNIX times already... `who` displays idle times and I never wondered where it got those.
20:32:10 <int-e> but mtime of the tty makes a lot of sense
20:55:20 <zzo38> On my computer the idle column for "who" command just says "old"
21:05:46 <int-e> so... I *think* who assumes that c[hange]time = time of login, a[ccess]time = time of last input (so this corresponds to idle time), and m[odify]time = time of last output, when looking at a user's controlling pty
21:06:02 <int-e> and 'old' is printed when atime is before ctime.
21:06:45 <zzo38> O, OK.
21:07:56 <int-e> Hmm there are some oddities... like ^C not counting as an input. (I guess that's an ioctl, not a write)
21:08:30 <int-e> (I'm looking at a PTY, not a "real" tty)
23:12:05 <zzo38> Next thing to write in Free Hero Mesh is figuring out what is wrong with some levels involving the $SeekerCloser class in the FALLING puzzle set.
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01:05:16 <zzo38> I should thank Everett Kaser (although I doubt that he will read this) for implementing the message trace window, although it has some bugs, including the inability to use ALT+letters (even though the letters are underlined), the inability to print to a file (trying results in a division by zero error), and inability to see the MsgArg2 value (the horizontal scrolling limit is wrong, which hides it).
01:07:16 <esowiki> [[Brainpocalypse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81213&oldid=81187 * Zero player rodent * (+13)
01:08:33 * nakilon loved Colobot
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02:06:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Shakespeare keywords dictionary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81214 * Trump Bot * (+242) Created page with "Hey, I know you're gonna create this page, so I'm here to stp you. I'm not here for your entertainment. Ren non Descartes said: You don't think, therefore you are not. Thi..."
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06:25:16 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Mornington Crescent keywords dictionary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81215 * Trump Bot * (+54) New Trump group member at the Conwaylife.com forums
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06:34:32 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81216&oldid=76168 * Trump Bot * (+549) Help
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11:25:54 <ais523> [[e:User:Trump Bot]] is a troll, right?
11:26:06 <ais523> * https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Trump_Bot
11:26:35 <ais523> I was going to give them the benefit of the doubt, but they don't seem to be here for constructive esolang-related posts
11:26:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81217&oldid=81216 * Ais523 * (-549) Undo revision 81216 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]): this website is about esolangs, you don't seem to be here to talk about those?
11:27:47 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81218&oldid=81182 * Ais523 * (-149) Undo revision 81182 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]): probably not a constructive edit
11:29:38 <nakilon> ais523 you could program with american presidents
11:29:53 <nakilon> use them like functions
11:30:30 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81219 * Ais523 * (+656) warning
11:30:58 <nakilon> one reverses the sequences/arrays, another one destroys things, another one builds
11:31:43 <nakilon> s/functions/procedures
11:32:16 <nakilon> because they all make side effects all over the place
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12:38:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Mornington Crescent keywords dictionary]]": userspace page not created by the owner of the userspace / without the permission of the owner of the userspace
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13:10:17 <esowiki> [[Bee literally apioforming informational page]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81220&oldid=81194 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Stub/WIP/Language
13:14:48 <esowiki> [[Third Party Contractor Accused Of A Robbery]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81221&oldid=81145 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+142) Cats, stub
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16:22:48 <esowiki> [[Built-out]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81222 * Bo Tie * (+913) Created page with "'''Built-out''' is a stack-based work-in-progress esoteric programming language created by [[User:Bo Tie]] that appears to have built-ins, but doesn't. == Commands == Before..."
16:26:11 <esowiki> [[Built-out]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81223&oldid=81222 * Bo Tie * (+62) Interpreter
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18:05:18 <b_jonas> `olist 1128
18:05:20 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:08:53 <FireFly> ooh list
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18:15:31 <ais523> you mean 1228, not 1128
18:16:47 <b_jonas> drat
18:16:51 <b_jonas> \indeed, 1228
18:17:36 <ais523> typoing/thinkoing an xxy pattern as xyy or vice versa seems to be one of the most common mistakes when trying to copy down arbitrary strings of characters/digits
18:25:13 <APic>
18:25:37 <APic> That is probably the Reason why xyzzy is the magic Word in ADVENT
18:34:13 <ais523> one theory that I've seen is that it's part of a mnemonic for calulating the cross product
18:34:25 <ais523> (the x component of the result is y1z2-z1y2)
18:34:32 <zzo38> Yes, I read that too
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20:06:20 <APic> Good Night!
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20:40:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81224&oldid=79658 * Heavpoot * (+368) Added new server
20:41:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81225&oldid=81224 * Heavpoot * (+8) Added word "current"
20:48:56 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81226&oldid=81219 * Heavpoot * (+162)
20:53:42 <esowiki> [[3x]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81227&oldid=77941 * Heavpoot * (+107) Categories
20:55:36 <esowiki> [[3x]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81228&oldid=81227 * Heavpoot * (-3) I think this is turing complete, actually.
21:00:15 <esowiki> [[User:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81229&oldid=81192 * Heavpoot * (-15) updation
21:01:14 <esowiki> [[!lyriclydemoteestablishcommunism!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81230&oldid=76829 * Heavpoot * (+0)
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21:46:52 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81231&oldid=58893 * Heavpoot * (+154)
22:08:01 <esowiki> [[Interlude]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3309) Add Interlude
22:08:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81233&oldid=81082 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* I */ +[[Interlude]]
22:08:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81234&oldid=81231 * Fizzie * (+886) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ Opinions.
22:08:52 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81235&oldid=80717 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) /* Languages */ +[[Interlude]]
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22:09:18 <heavpoot> what is with Trump Bot.
22:09:33 <heavpoot> i can't exactly tell their motive.
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22:34:34 <fizzie> I have no idea either. The comment with the link to the conwaylife.com forums was pretty odd. If it's *actually* a piece of software, it's an odd one.
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2021-03-09
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01:05:00 <Guest56_> HELLO zzo38
01:05:11 <zzo38> Hello, what question today?
01:06:42 <Guest56_> Nice to see you around here, I didn't know you were on esoteric as well. I ocassionally read your posts on the Usenet. Is Sqlnetnews still being maintained?
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01:07:56 <zzo38> Mostly I am working on a different project (Free Hero Mesh) at this time, although later I may work on sqlnetnews more. If you have any contributions or suggeations, then you may write where I may read them.
01:08:32 <shachaf> What is Free Hero Mesh?
01:08:52 <zzo38> It is a puzzle game engine, for grid-based puzzle games such as sokoban and Hero Hearts.
01:09:20 <Guest56_> Sounds intresting - is it avaliable for download or something?
01:10:04 <zzo38> It is also meant to be compatible with puzzles from Everett Kaser's Hero Mesh (once they are converted), although it also has many new features too (including dynamic types, higher limits, etc).
01:10:27 <zzo38> Guest56_: There is a Fossil repository at: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui
01:11:15 <zzo38> It is in a state ready for testing, although it isn't close to complete yet.
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01:16:45 <zzo38> For now, I am trying to figure out what is causing some levels of the FALLING puzzle set with the $SeekerCloser class to not work properly.
01:22:24 <Guest56_> FYI: I am maintaning my own logs of this channel, alongside the ones above
01:22:26 <zzo38> Please tell me if you have any comments, suggestions, bug reports, etc.
01:23:26 <Guest56_> I will check your think out zzo
01:23:28 <Guest56_> thing
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02:06:53 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81236&oldid=81123 * Trump Bot * (+790)
02:07:21 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81237&oldid=79175 * Sertdfyguhi * (+16) /* esolangs I made */
02:08:10 <esowiki> [[Plts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81238&oldid=79172 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:08:40 <esowiki> [[Ewpl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81239&oldid=79181 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:09:06 <esowiki> [[Dotter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81240&oldid=79323 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:09:25 <esowiki> [[User:Sertdfyguhi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81241&oldid=81237 * Sertdfyguhi * (-6) update github name
02:20:09 <nakilon> IRL pixel art language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufic
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05:11:46 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81242&oldid=81218 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+96)
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07:21:58 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81243&oldid=81200 * Trump Bot * (+256) I sneezed by accident while posting and I can't delete it
07:22:00 <nakilon> this one reminds me the game on ipad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqNockPqPBg
07:22:42 <nakilon> there were wires and signals going through them by similar rules
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08:45:31 <zzo38> O, and there is a mirror of the Fossil repository for Free Hero Mesh at http://chiselapp.com/user/zzo38/repository/freeheromesh in case you need it
09:03:29 <nakilon> $ cc -std=c11 temp.c
09:03:30 <nakilon> temp.c:8:5: warning: implicit declaration of function 'timespec_get' is invalid in C99
09:04:02 <nakilon> why doesn't cc agree to use the C11? it seems to understand the flag but the warning says...
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09:10:32 <nakilon> the same error with the snippet from https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/chrono/timespec_get while there on page their snippet runner compiles it fine with clang c11
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09:12:35 <nakilon> and when I press the "Share" button to get this link https://coliru.stacked-crooked.com/view?id=e84b765e6e9eb6d3and copy the command line from there I get the same error
09:12:48 <nakilon> I guess it's smth with my compiler but I didn't touch it...
09:14:19 <nakilon> they have clang 5.0 while mine is Apple LLVM version 10.0.1 (clang-1001.0.46.4) though and I don't know a shit about how do they correlate
09:49:20 <shachaf> MADV_FREE is a kind of bizarre API.
09:49:42 <shachaf> It should probably be set up to that either reads or writes give you the page, not just writes.
09:50:10 <shachaf> As it is you can have the odd behavior that you read a value from memory that's nominally available, and then you wait a while, and the value is different.
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11:01:23 <fizzie> nakilon: The "implicit declaration -- invalid in C99" warning (in Clang) is badly worded, and really just means "invalid *since* C99". But I don't know the actual cause of your problem; with my Clang, -std=c11 successfully adds timespec_get to the declarations from <time.h>, it just still gives the same warning for actually unknown names.
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13:24:40 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81244&oldid=79641 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) Fix name
13:25:34 <esowiki> [[PASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81245&oldid=81244 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) /* Registers */ l->n
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18:38:03 <oren> what is the difference between aleatoric and stochastic
18:42:26 <int-e> . o O ( aleatoric sounds more musical. also I had to look it up. )
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19:18:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81246&oldid=81189 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Reverse cat */
19:19:16 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81247&oldid=81246 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ silly me. two-params are still confusing
19:20:28 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81248&oldid=81247 * Digital Hunter * (-49) /* FizzBuzz */ shorter one
19:21:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81249&oldid=81248 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* FizzBuzz */ oops
19:21:23 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81250&oldid=81249 * Digital Hunter * (-187) /* FizzBuzz */ oops oops
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22:24:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81251&oldid=81236 * Ais523 * (-790) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Trump Bot|Trump Bot]] ([[User talk:Trump Bot|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]]
22:25:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Trump Bot]] with an expiration time of 3 days (account creation disabled, email disabled): looks like this user is just here to troll / advertise other forums, not to post constructively; temporary block to give them a chance to cool down / improve, but I'm not hopeful
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22:39:16 <ais523> shachaf: MADV_FREE is, in effect, basically "make it so that reading from any address in this range before it is next written is undefined behaviour"
22:39:29 <ais523> (which is a useful thing to do to allow the kernel to optimise the use of the physical memory backing it)
22:39:49 <ais523> but, you can't have *actual* undefined behaviour at the user/kernel interface because that might lead to security bugs, so instead they document the possible behaviours
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22:40:24 <shachaf> There's a particular claim someone made that they read a zero at the beginning of the page, wrote to the page, and then read a nonzero from the same place.
22:40:32 <shachaf> Which is a situation I'm skeptical about.
22:41:20 <ais523> I think that a) the API definition should allow that as a possible sequence of events in theory, but b) there is no reason to implement the kernel in such a way that that sequence of events would happen in practice
22:41:39 <shachaf> Anyway, why not have it set up so that either a read or a write faults, and keeps the page as-is?
22:41:47 <ais523> with the possible exception of kernel builds on which non-zeroed memory can be allocated
22:42:22 <ais523> shachaf: modifying page tables is expensive, even taking into account the length of time a system call takes
22:42:23 <shachaf> As far as I can tell that should only affect people who read from "uninitialized" memory, making the system more predictable, at no particular cost to anyone else.
22:42:33 <shachaf> Aren't they modifying the page tables anyway?
22:42:35 <ais523> but I guess they need to be modified regardless so that you can detect writes
22:42:38 <shachaf> Right.
22:43:34 <ais523> (Linux has an API for allocating uninitialized memory, but it's normally ifdeffed out by default for security reasons, and is only really there for high-performance embedded systems which don't care about security between processes)
22:44:24 <shachaf> Yes. But I don't think that's the situation here.
22:45:10 <shachaf> A person is saying, maybe this is a dirty page allocated by the same process, and therefore it doesn't contain zeros, but you can still get it without a security problem.
22:45:17 <shachaf> But I don't think Linux does anything like that.
22:45:23 <ais523> nor do I
22:45:37 <shachaf> Other than MADV_FREE, I mean, which only works this way if you keep the page in place.
22:46:17 <ais523> MADV_FREE isn't an allocation API, it's a deallocation API
22:47:26 <shachaf> Well, you can think of it either way.
22:47:54 <shachaf> It's sort of an optimized version of mmapping a new anonymous page at the same address.
22:48:08 <ais523> yes
22:48:35 <ais523> my favourite madvise option is MADV_HUGEPAGE which seems to actually have a noticeable performance impact in some programs
22:49:05 <shachaf> Hmm.
22:49:07 <ais523> and yet basically nothing uses it
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22:49:24 <ais523> it makes vmsplice(2) noticeably faster, but nobody uses vmsplice either
22:49:31 <shachaf> Last time I really tried to use huge pages for performance, you had to use hugetlbfs, I think.
22:49:42 <shachaf> And as I remember it didn't make much of a difference. But maybe I wasn't careful enough.
22:50:09 <shachaf> vmsplice is only for pipes, right?
22:50:12 <ais523> yes
22:50:38 <ais523> huge pages make pagewalks faster (most notably, recovering from a TLB flush, but some memory management operations make the kernel pagewalk)
22:50:59 <ais523> but they force memory management operations to have a larger granularity, so when you're using them, you have to be very careful to avoid anything that might cause a page copy
22:51:05 <ais523> otherwise you lose all your performance advantage
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22:52:11 <ais523> something I've discovered recently is that the way to optimise I/O from the writer's point of view depends a lot on what is reading the data, and how it's being read
22:52:29 <ais523> in particular, whether the data is going to be read out of your L1/L2/L3 cache or not
22:53:12 <ais523> if it isn't then it makes most sense to stream the data directly to the physical memory that's going to back the kernel's view of it (using mmap for files and vmsplice for pipes, plus nontemporal writes)
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23:00:46 <shachaf> Yes, but this was in a situation that should have benefited from huge pages (a database that managed its own cache).
23:03:52 <ais523> I actually think the largest benefits would be for, e.g., the memory backing large linked lists
23:04:15 <ais523> basically anything that makes a complete mockery of caches
23:04:45 <ais523> if something is cache-efficient then there won't be a large gain for hugepages because the TLB would be generally working pretty quickly anyway, so there isn't much to optimise
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23:05:06 <ais523> (other than recovery from TLB flushes, which I think the kernel does a pretty good job of reducing the frequency of nowadays)
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03:47:36 <zzo38> Next in the GURPS game I play, we are against someone who can control time and (usually) avoid all of our attacks. I thought to destroy the tower, but I don't have any means to do so.
03:48:11 <zzo38> I thought to use area attacks or explosives to hurt him, but I don't have any. But now I thought to make some sort of temporal paradox, maybe.
03:49:08 <zzo38> Ziveruskex is a mathematician (and rather advanced for his time), so might be able to do something. Do you know?
03:50:05 <shachaf> How does he control time?
03:51:56 <zzo38> I don't know. (If I knew, then I might know how to supress his power, too.) But, he had been able to skip time in order to move faster (without actually increasing his velocity or teleporting), force us backward (a kind of involuntary mental time travel, I suppose), get more turns than us, and he once managed to disappear while stunned.
04:08:17 <nakilon> fizzie that's weird
04:08:31 <nakilon> another guy (who codes in c++ all his life) has no idea either
04:08:56 <nakilon> and compilers on this machine never malfunctioned -- homebrew and stuff works fine
04:09:21 <nakilon> I suppose they do some configuration that not everyone knows about
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05:06:10 <esowiki> [[Wenyan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81254&oldid=81242 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+3112) Fixed link and added more code
05:11:54 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81255&oldid=78503 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+283) Added two links
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06:34:48 <nakilon> one guy at SO had no problem with timespec_get
06:34:58 <nakilon> another one says it never worked "because clang sucks"
06:36:11 <nakilon> so 1. docs say it's ok 2. online compiler says ok 3. two guys say ok 4. one says "it never worked" 5. and it does not work for me
06:36:41 <nakilon> the (4) guy says "you didn't have the problem of compiling such programs because no one uses this function", lol
06:41:21 <nakilon> I wonder if "clock_gettime(CLOCK_REALTIME" is an equivalent replacement
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07:09:20 <zzo38> In the software I was working on, I have been unable to figure out what is causing a specific problem. I have managed to eliminate some things, but still have not quite figured it out. Even worse, I probably do not have permission to redistribute the test cases.
07:22:14 <nakilon> some to Russia -- intellectual property and security is a joke here
07:25:11 <nakilon> porn movies pirating hackers broke into our Jenkins -- I've found the clues, documented vulnerability, updated the Jenkins, removed their forged user account
07:26:01 <nakilon> told the boss/CTO that the private Github key was exposed, and he should press the button to issue the new one and copy it to Jenkins or give me so I'll copy it
07:26:45 <nakilon> he said 'oh yeah, sure", the same on the next day, and on the next, and after a week, and month, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't even going to just press a single button to make a new key
07:27:29 <nakilon> and that was the company with the most serious attitude to security among all the places I worked at, lol
07:27:47 <nakilon> 10:22:13 <nakilon> some to Russia
07:27:49 <nakilon> *come
07:27:55 <zzo38> Well, you could purchase the test cases from Everett Kaser, although I don't know if their 32-bit Hero Mesh format is compatible with my software, or if they have changed the levels to difference
07:29:30 <zzo38> I don't know how to speak/write Russion
07:29:42 <nakilon> neither Russians do
07:30:13 <zzo38> (I know someone who does know how to speak Russian, but not to read/write it)
07:30:18 <nakilon> (I exaggerate)
07:30:37 <nakilon> lol, how's that possible? to speak and not read?
07:30:56 <nakilon> does he know only slurs?
07:31:04 <LKoen> ...isn't speaking much easier than reading?
07:31:23 <LKoen> children only learn reading at about 6 year old, but can learn to speak many years before that
07:31:52 <nakilon> idk, I guess we were learning to speak and talk English in the same age
07:32:05 <zzo38> Well, you can know some language only for speaking but not reading, or only reading but not speaking. She can speak Russian fine (not only slurs), but not read/write. She can read/write English and French though, as well as speaking those languages.
07:32:28 <LKoen> if you're learning a second language that uses the same alphabet as yours, learning reading and speaking at the same time can be easier because you can use written material
07:32:28 <nakilon> maybe only the "my name is" was the thing we were taught before reading but that can't be called a "speaking"
07:33:03 <LKoen> but if you're learning a language with a different alphabet, you'll find speaking can be much easier than reading
07:33:04 <nakilon> Russian and English are different alphabets
07:33:14 <nakilon> 33 letters vs 26
07:33:21 <nakilon> etc.
07:33:26 <zzo38> Yes, they are; Russian uses the Cyrillic alphabet.
07:35:08 <nakilon> I can't learn how to write the word "Cyrillic" because it uses the same "i" sound three times and while in Russian it's always written the same way in English it's "i", "y", "ee", "ea"...
07:35:23 <nakilon> Кириллица
07:36:47 <zzo38> Yes, the English spelling is messy like that
07:37:36 <nakilon> another word that I'll never learn: necessary
07:38:06 <zzo38> (Although, if you use more English rather than French words, you could write better with runes, although even then a few words might not match spelling/pronounce, such as "one" and "two".)
07:38:31 <nakilon> "women"
07:41:16 <zzo38> Yes, that too
07:45:36 <zzo38> In GURPS game, the rules say your character can know speaking a language and reading/writing a language separately, so my character (whose name is Ziveruskex) can speak and read/write English, but only read/write Latin and Greek. (Trying to pronounce Latin words is possible, but will likely be all wrong; if you are not speaking fluently, you will not understand quickly enough what others are saying either, I think.)
07:47:05 <nakilon> 'Ziveruskex' sounds like Zverushka in Russian that means "a small cute beast"
07:47:40 <zzo38> O, that is a coincidence, and now I know some word in Russian.
07:49:41 <nakilon> Ewoks from Star Wars are zverushki
07:50:07 <zzo38> (The name was actually made up using a computer program which just randomly puts groups of letters together and then deduplicates consecutive doubles or triples.)
07:50:40 <nakilon> also an old cartoon character https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheburashka can be classified as zverushka and you see that suffixes are similar
07:51:13 <zzo38> Yes.
07:52:00 <nakilon> "durak" meaning "fool" can be called "durashka" if you want to tell him that he's a fool but you have no negative attitude to it
07:53:41 <zzo38> OK
07:53:57 <nakilon> zzo38shka ..D
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08:51:26 <nakilon> oh finally I defeated the C
08:51:28 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol0enAM-fFE
08:51:55 <nakilon> I mean those time functions
08:52:33 <nakilon> emulated two threads -- one for evolution and one for emiting the frames because stupid ffmpeg can't dup frames to fill the framerate gaps
08:54:18 <nakilon> restarted with reduced frequency of random mutations
08:56:39 <nakilon> weird black lines on right and bottom borders -- ffmpeg is also stupid in rescaling, and I had to convert from b/w to colors otherwise rescaling was making it all green, lol
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09:16:49 <nakilon> oh finally three mutations connected, resulting in something more continuous
09:26:32 <nakilon> 12% CPU and 50MB of RES for ffmpeg, 2.7% of CPU for C -- hopefully can be launched on a server; the only issue is that in 3 weeks there will be an integer overflow in those time routines
10:15:01 <b_jonas> "<ais523> my favourite madvise option is MADV_HUGEPAGE which seems to actually have a noticeable performance impact in some programs" => hopefully less and less, as the kernel gets smarter in automatically deciding about hugepages
10:15:58 <b_jonas> "<ais523> huge pages make pagewalks faster (most notably, recovering from a TLB flush," => also occupies fewer space in the TLB, so it can cache more, right?
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12:41:09 <esowiki> [[Lemane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81256 * OsmineYT * (+198) Created page with "<div style="font: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 48px; text-align: center; background-image: repeating-linear-gradient(180deg, yellow 30%, black 40%); color: light-gray;">U..."
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12:48:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * OsmineYT * moved [[Lemane]] to [[LeMane]]: Wrong title capitalization
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13:14:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81259&oldid=81255 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* External resources */ Remove useless URL escape
13:23:12 <esowiki> [[Talk:LeMane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81260 * OsmineYT * (+164) Created page with "<div id="head" style="cursor: grab;" ondrag="d = document.getElementById('head'); d.style.cursor = 'grabbed'; d.innerHTML = 'Easter egg!';">Under construction</div>"
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13:54:30 <esowiki> [[Interlude]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81261&oldid=81232 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) /* Dice roll */ Add example
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14:38:31 <ais523> b_jonas: at least on Intel processors, there are actually three separate TLBs, one for each size of page; the 2MiB-page-TLB can generally map a lot more addrecesses than the 4KiB-page-TLB though because it contains a comparable number of entries and each page is so much larger
14:39:02 <ais523> as for automatically deciding about hugepages, Linux doesn't appear to do that at all at the moment
14:39:25 <ais523> if you check to see how many huge pages are in use, it generally tells me 0 except when I'm running a program that explicitly MADV_HUGEPAGEs
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15:27:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qh4os * New user account
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15:34:58 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81262&oldid=81253 * Qh4os * (+211)
15:36:45 <esowiki> [[HQ9+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81263&oldid=80004 * Qh4os * (+38) /* Implementation */ there should be an integer argument for each '%d' in the format string
16:06:18 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but does the cpu need to create entries in the 4k TLB cache lazily for hugepages, entries that don't exist in memory but are autogenerated, or can it just look up addresses directly with the 2MB cache? if the latter, then that's a win for programs that do a lot of random access read on more memory than the 2KB page TLB can support.
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16:06:33 <b_jonas> I hope it's the latter, but I can't be sure
16:07:11 <b_jonas> no automatic huge pages at the moment => ok, I see
16:14:20 <int-e> I'd think that there are enough applications with huge memory maps that warrant full HW support for 2MB pages... no crappy simulation through 4kb pages.
16:52:46 <int-e> oh... https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Intel-i7-nehalem-cpu,2041-11.html "The level 1 data TLB now stores 64 entries for small pages (4K) or 32 for large pages (2M/4M), while the level 1 instruction TLB stores 128 entries for small pages (the same as with Core 2) and seven for large pages."
17:00:07 <int-e> So there are separate TLBs for the top page table levels and the last level and they've arranged for large pages to not conflict with small ones, hmm. Fun.
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21:39:30 <esowiki> [[Interlude]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81264&oldid=81261 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+113) /* Commands */ Clarification
21:44:36 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81265&oldid=74390 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Interpreter */ Wayback
21:46:43 <esowiki> [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81266&oldid=81265 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-25) Undo revision 81265 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) m
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23:07:27 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81267 * Hakerh400 * (+5912) +[[DriftLang]]
23:07:30 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81268&oldid=81233 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[DriftLang]]
23:07:34 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81269&oldid=80993 * Hakerh400 * (+16) +[[DriftLang]]
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00:00:41 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81270&oldid=81267 * Hakerh400 * (+1606)
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08:28:56 <esowiki> [[Imeight]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81271&oldid=81125 * Kekcsi * (+350)
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10:46:34 <esowiki> [[Main Page/2 Bits, 1 Byte]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81272 * Gilbert189 * (+1919) Created page with "2 Bits, 1 Byte is an assembly language for a 2-bit CPU, made by [[User:Gilbert189]]. With 1 byte of memory, this machine could store at least 2 instructions. == Operations ==..."
10:47:15 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Gilbert189 * moved [[Main Page/2 Bits, 1 Byte]] to [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]]: why put thus into main page
12:35:01 <esowiki> [[2 Bits, 1 Byte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81275&oldid=81273 * Hakerh400 * (+587) Add interpreter and Quine
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15:22:23 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81276&oldid=81057 * 1hals * (-251) remove "self interpreter" because it is wrong
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20:20:09 <esowiki> [[LeMane/temprules]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81277 * OsmineYT * (+26) Created page with "rules for LeMane also temp"
20:20:30 <esowiki> [[LeMane/temprules]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81278&oldid=81277 * OsmineYT * (+1)
20:31:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:LeMane/temprules]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81279 * Nailuj29 * (+49) Created page with "Nailuj29: Is this necessary, we have the discord."
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20:53:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Minion3665 * New user account
20:57:48 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81280&oldid=81262 * Minion3665 * (+271) /* Introductions */
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21:01:31 <esowiki> [[UwU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81281&oldid=70227 * Minion3665 * (-10) Fix the ~w~ and w on the table (perhaps they were copied from Ook!?)
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21:35:07 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Main Page/2 Bits, 1 Byte]]": redirect from unlikely typo (I mean, it happened, but it's still an unlikely typo)
21:37:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Em3]]": userfied by author (to [[User:Emerald/sandbox#em3]]); removing the resulting cross-namespace redirect
21:41:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81282&oldid=80342 * Ais523 * (+839) /* Your empty pages */ new section
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01:54:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump Bot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81283&oldid=81226 * Trump Bot * (+23)
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05:08:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81284&oldid=81252 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+315) Added LifeWiki forum links. Not sure if useful.
06:08:27 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81285 * 1hals * (+1541) create page
06:11:23 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81286&oldid=81285 * 1hals * (+254) add math to examples and explain more
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06:14:32 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81287&oldid=81286 * 1hals * (+37) add WIP note
06:17:05 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81288&oldid=81287 * 1hals * (+20)
06:23:41 <esowiki> [[Strucked]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81289&oldid=81288 * 1hals * (+18) +2021
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11:36:19 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81290&oldid=80608 * Gilbert189 * (+21)
12:14:56 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81291&oldid=81046 * Gilbert189 * (+59) /* General languages */
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14:42:38 <fizzie> "Website https://esolangs.org/ security certificate expires soon (2.231561476999998e+06 seconds)."
14:42:41 <fizzie> I think the formatting of my alerts leaves a little to be desired, but at least it told me. (It's supposed to renew via cron, but I guess it's broken again.)
14:46:11 <fizzie> Wonder what's up with that. It isn't the thing that was wrong once before, which was mixing up the minute/hour fields of crontab and trying to run it on the 37th hour of the day.
15:04:41 <nakilon> "expires soon (2.231561476999998e+06 seconds)." -- reminded me the old sub /r/totallynotrobots
15:05:07 <nakilon> don't fix it
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15:32:49 <int-e> > 2.23e6/86400
15:32:51 <lambdabot> 25.810185185185187
16:08:34 <fizzie> I think I set it to start complaining at 30d and have been ignoring it for a few days already.
16:08:53 <fizzie> The script itself succeeded again, for some reason cron's just not running it.
16:11:38 <fizzie> (It's one of those normal Let's Encrypt 3-month certificates, and I set up my own scripts because certbot was kind of rudimentary at the time, so instead of the "run often and renew only when less than a month left" model I've got a "force-renew once a month model". Or would have it cron would behave. It works on all other machines, weird.)
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17:12:00 <int-e> fizzie: I see... I have one certbot setup and one script around acme-tiny, but with working cron.
17:12:25 <int-e> (the acme-tiny thing came first)
17:15:17 <fizzie> Hmm, well. `journalctl -u cron` says "Logs begin at Mon 2021-03-08", and it's supposed to run on every 7th day of the month, so I guess I won't see if something went wrong there. It's running the other /etc/cron.d/ files just fine. Weird.
17:16:44 <fizzie> The cron.d file just says "1 2 7 * * letsencrypt /var/local/letsencrypt/letsencrypt-cron.sh" and doing "sudo -u letsencrypt /var/local/letsencrypt/letsencrypt-cron.sh" successfully renews the certificates.
17:17:26 <int-e> hmm but the environment may be different, including $PATH
17:17:38 <int-e> but then you should get mails?
17:17:50 <fizzie> Yeah. Unless there's something wrong with mail delivery from this system.
17:19:53 <fizzie> But I've gotten other emails from the system, so it would be specifically cron that's not sending mail right.
17:20:10 <int-e> or does the letsencrypt user get those mails?
17:21:04 <int-e> which would be stupid... but somewtimes things are stupid
17:21:32 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe? I thought I had all role accounts aliased to root and then to me, but that one isn't.
17:21:48 <fizzie> Yeah, you might have got it.
17:22:17 <fizzie> Checking an earlier cron email from a different system, it's indeed "To: letsencrypt@<anotherhost>.zem.fi".
17:23:27 <fizzie> Yeah, that user has 26 emails from cron.
17:23:29 <fizzie> (Thanks.)
17:24:35 <fizzie> Uh, and all those emails say it successfully renewed... oh, wait a minute, maybe it's renewing the cert but failing to reload the web server, because it's missing a sudoers rule to allow it to do that.
17:29:21 <int-e> heh, I seem to have two stages... one to get a new certificate, and one that runs as root, copies nthe certificates, and restarts the webserver
17:32:58 <int-e> not the cleanest approach
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18:26:57 <fizzie> What I ended up with is, the whole thing runs as 'letsencrypt', there's POSIX filesystem ACLs that allow it to write to the specific cert files in /etc/ssl/letsencrypt/... and sudoers.d rules that allow it to run the specific reload commands.
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19:14:25 <Sgeo> Why was I convinced that PL/I was a database thing?
19:14:53 <Sgeo> Oh PL/SQL. Names too similar
19:19:09 <Sgeo> ". The PDP-7, however, did have a few `auto-increment' memory cells, with the property that an indirect memory reference through them incremented the cell. "
19:19:12 <Sgeo> ??? what. Weird.
19:21:00 <int-e> no less weird than Intel's movs/cmps/scas
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19:22:49 <int-e> uh, I mean "no more", don't I :P
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19:36:35 <myname> auto-increment registers are nice
20:01:03 <fizzie> But of course auto-increment registers with a circular buffer modulo support are extra-nice, and bit-reversed auto-increment registers are the nicest.
20:01:27 <kmc> bit-reversed?
20:03:03 <fizzie> DSPs (or at least some; I know the TMS320C54x does) have this thing where you can increment an address register and it'll do the carry bit the wrong way around.
20:03:10 <fizzie> It's to save instructions when doing a FFT.
20:03:35 <int-e> yeah, FFT was my guess
20:03:58 <int-e> you'll need normal autoincrement registers as well
20:04:02 <b_jonas> heh
20:05:32 <fizzie> It does those as well, of course. And for the bit-reversed mode, you'll need to dedicate AR0 (out of the 8 address registers, AR0..AR7) to holding a bitmask that defines the size of the FFT.
20:06:07 <int-e> makes sense
20:07:02 <fizzie> I've only used a DSP for one tiny university project, and didn't get to use the bit-reversed addressing mode, but at least I got to use the circular buffer one.
20:12:58 <b_jonas> I have this old one-instruction language with a memory of words where the instruction is like m[2] = 0 <= (m[m[m[0]++]] -= m[m[m[0]++]]); (but with less undefined behavior from modifying the same cell twice in a statement), only I only ever wrote one small program for it, and that one is buggy. so this has not only the program counter memory-mapped to m[0] but also a comparison flag mapped to m[2]
20:13:22 <b_jonas> and the comparison flag has the value of 0 and 1 so that you can conveniently use it as a conditional goto, or an unconditional goto after you zero a cell
20:13:53 <b_jonas> (there's also some IO mapped to memory)
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20:40:13 <arseniiv_> I was displeased with Thue—Morse sequence and invented my own
20:40:29 <arseniiv_> it starts 01000111111010111110010000011001111001000001111000010110000101100110010000011110000101100001010100010110000100010001110100011100…
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20:45:23 <arseniiv> the rule is not too complicated: S(0) = 0, S(n+1) = S(n) ++ ((S(n) + 1) | (S(n) cshr 1)), where + is addition modulo 2^|S(n)| (it shouldn’t overflow when starting with S(0) = 0, though!), | is bitwise or and cshr is cyclical right shift
20:46:14 <arseniiv> I tried simpler rules but they give repeat-ish sequences, which is what I was displeased about the original one
20:48:04 <int-e> shouldn't that start as... 0,01,0110
20:48:46 <int-e> maybe you used xor where you wrote or
20:48:58 <arseniiv> yep, xor, my bad
20:49:56 <int-e> and it indeed cannot overflow becaus S(n) always starts with 0.
20:50:11 <arseniiv> my design was that if I take & or |, 0s or 1s will overgrow the sequence further to the right
20:51:09 <arseniiv> yep, though I think it’d be good to look at S(0) = 1 and other strings, also I need to take that and fetch it to some statistical tests to know how it looks overall
20:51:29 <arseniiv> but not right now
20:51:43 <int-e> I don't like it... the +1 has very limited effect
20:52:36 <arseniiv> I didn’t come up with anything better and simply calculated in a couple of minutes
20:53:24 <arseniiv> any suggestions! We need more jointly named made-up sequences!
20:54:06 <arseniiv> I daresay, seqυentions
20:55:44 <arseniiv> (υ was picked as a sorta middle ground between v and u)
21:00:34 <int-e> S(0) = 1 hmm. 1 1 11 1111....
21:00:51 <int-e> looks boring ;)
21:01:45 <arseniiv> ow I didn’t expect
21:02:41 <arseniiv> yep, (all units + 1) is all zeros, and all units shifted is all units, so xor is all units again. Ow ow
21:04:13 <arseniiv> int-e: how do you thing, is there a place to concatenate two sequences of differing lengths? What could we do to them to make lengths different (in the general case)?
21:04:55 <arseniiv> one might skip particular subsequences but that’s too picky and expensive to compute
21:05:35 <arseniiv> (when using ordinary unbounded integers for sequences)
21:07:40 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81292&oldid=80606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+30) /* New keywords */ cats
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21:12:59 <int-e> arseniiv: sorry I can't get excited about this
21:15:22 <arseniiv> int-e: ah no problem at all
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22:41:05 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81293&oldid=81103 * RetroPain * (+7) /* Simple Pain Instuctions */
22:49:02 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81294&oldid=81293 * RetroPain * (+139) /* List of Instuctions */
22:49:27 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81295&oldid=81294 * RetroPain * (+2) /* List of Instuctions */
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2021-03-13
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00:37:16 <zzo38> The following Free Hero Mesh code http://sprunge.us/tfgIMq seems to not being interpreted correctly (either that or the original has a bug causing it to be interpreted incorrectly, but the behaviour differs either way). This seems to be the only code that isn't working. This is the only code that uses the Delta instruction, but I tested that and that doesn't seem to be the problem.
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01:17:20 <TannerSwett[m]> Sup folks.
01:17:33 <TannerSwett[m]> So, I've invented a new esolang.
01:18:24 <TannerSwett[m]> It's like Thue, but with 3 differences.
01:19:07 <TannerSwett[m]> 1. If multiple rules can be applied, the one which occurs earliest in the program is the one which is applied. (If a single rule can be applied in multiple different ways, that's still unspecified.)
01:19:14 <TannerSwett[m]> 2. It's all based on s-expressions instead of strings.
01:19:44 <TannerSwett[m]> 3. Rules can contain variables. There are two kinds of variables, one which stands for a node, and one which stands for any number of nodes (zero or more).
01:20:56 <TannerSwett[m]> So a piece of code for setting a value in a dictionary might look something like...
01:21:38 <TannerSwett[m]> (set $key $new_value (@kvps_before ($key $old_value) @kvps_after)) ::= (@kvps_before ($key $new_value) @kvps_after)
01:22:04 <TannerSwett[m]> (set $key $new_value (@kvps_before)) ::= (@kvps_before ($key $new_value))
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06:21:08 <esowiki> [[`]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81296&oldid=73132 * YamTokTpaFa * (+3) /* Examples */ If you follw the grammar properly, programs involving backward jumping should be fixed; I think I have read the specs properly.
06:24:40 <esowiki> [[1337]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81297&oldid=31187 * YamTokTpaFa * (+31) Not to be confused with [[l33t]].
06:44:35 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81298&oldid=74333 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* More explainations */ Seems I mistyped the expressions.
06:46:24 <esowiki> [[AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Turing-completeness proof]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81299&oldid=81298 * YamTokTpaFa * (+26) /* More explainations */ [0] and [1] and s/indexes/indice/
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09:55:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81300&oldid=81083 * Hakerh400 * (+34) +[[PhD]]
09:56:46 <esowiki> [[PhD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81301&oldid=80989 * Hakerh400 * (+14) /* Hello, World! */
10:33:48 <b_jonas> @kind iterable
10:33:50 <lambdabot> error: Not in scope: type variable ‘iterable’
10:33:52 <b_jonas> @kind Iterable
10:33:53 <lambdabot> error:
10:33:54 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Iterable’
10:34:12 <b_jonas> @kind foldable
10:34:13 <lambdabot> error:
10:34:13 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type variable ‘foldable’
10:34:13 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant type constructor or class ‘Foldable’ (imported from Data.Foldable)
10:34:21 <b_jonas> @kind Foldable
10:34:22 <lambdabot> (* -> *) -> Constraint
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13:43:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tha Cuber * New user account
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13:56:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81302&oldid=81280 * Tha Cuber * (+221)
14:03:25 <esowiki> [[User:Tha Cuber]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81303 * Tha Cuber * (+100) Created page with "function hello() { console.log("Hello World!") } Hello World! I'm Tha Cuber and i like to code :D"
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18:53:22 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81304&oldid=81295 * RetroPain * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
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20:50:53 <nakilon> b_jonas you played Spelunky 2, right?
20:52:54 <nakilon> I'm making a tool to make such images: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2870363/111043398-5f3e4300-8453-11eb-8495-a459bc3c0781.png
20:54:32 <b_jonas> nakilon: no
20:54:36 <b_jonas> I haven't played it
20:55:56 <nakilon> hm
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23:49:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81305 * Truttle1 * (+134) Created page with "== what if macron did exist? == would we surivive? ~~~~"
23:52:14 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81306&oldid=81217 * Truttle1 * (+164)
2021-03-14
00:18:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:Macron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81307&oldid=81305 * JonoCode9374 * (+331) /* what if macron did exist? */
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01:37:13 <esowiki> [[The Inevitable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81308&oldid=60474 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) Stub, cats
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03:04:33 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jawakatze29 * New user account
03:08:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81309&oldid=81302 * Jawakatze29 * (+203) /* Introductions */
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05:26:38 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/thingskatedid/status/1370863565712748546
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12:48:40 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81310 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+1173) Copied from another website.
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14:48:52 <esowiki> [[Alphamation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81311&oldid=80495 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2133) Add Documentation, Cats
14:57:04 <esowiki> [[Betamation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81312&oldid=80498 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-48) /* Implementations */ Rm implementation to wrong language; cat
14:57:14 <esowiki> [[Betamation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81313&oldid=81312 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Stub
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15:08:54 <esowiki> [[Chase Roycroft]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81314&oldid=80423 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+52) Link to userpage
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15:09:43 <esowiki> [[Tarski/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81315&oldid=80432 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+17) Link to Tarski
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18:44:26 <honigkuchen> hi
18:44:55 <honigkuchen> I want to talk life energy
18:46:25 <honigkuchen> oh I am wrong
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18:57:48 <nakilon> wat
18:57:56 <nakilon> ah
18:59:37 <nakilon> I've got a match in Tinder and her profile was telling about esoteric stuff, zodiak, etc.
18:59:55 <nakilon> I said I can tell her about esoteric programming languages
19:00:02 <nakilon> she said that's not serious
19:00:26 <myname> you are probably better off that way
19:00:27 <nakilon> and continued asking me in what hour and minute I was born "to tell me everything about my destiny"
19:03:08 <myname> i would be so mad at my mother for not pushing me out faster or slower
19:03:43 <myname> "one minute more life and i'd be a billionaire!"
19:04:12 <nakilon> I was pushed out in 8 months
19:04:45 <nakilon> and my life is absolutely innormal
19:08:03 <myname> obviously, what else would have brought you here
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19:33:44 <arseniiv> <nakilon> she said that's not serious => pffft. Agree with myname here :)
19:35:35 <arseniiv> there was a special one who told me about my density, though. Via densitometry. Well, not my overall density, only several bones which are usually studied to know if there is anything alright with calcium and bones overall
19:36:10 <arseniiv> she was quite talkative. Shame though that not my age group at all
19:37:10 <arseniiv> I think it’s a great oversight that astrology doesn’t predict osteoporosis
19:39:39 <myname> or anything else
19:41:09 <arseniiv> oh but osteoporosis most of all, innit?
19:41:23 <arseniiv> I think so B)
19:41:34 <arseniiv> one should better know their density!
19:42:44 <arseniiv> (please forgive me, I couldn’t refrain)
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20:05:56 <nakilon> that esoteric girl said there are no age groups
20:06:50 <nakilon> my density is a bit lower than a water density -- I know that for sure
20:07:37 <nakilon> there should be a VM where data is moving because of pressire
20:07:40 <nakilon> *pressure
20:08:08 <nakilon> to move data from array A to array B you concat them and start sucking from the other end
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20:24:11 <myname> you can actually make hydraulic computers
20:24:25 <myname> at least logic gates
20:24:44 <myname> but with a pump, you should be able to make flipflops
20:38:36 <fizzie> There's that thing, what's it called.
20:38:40 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Noit_o%27_mnain_worb
20:38:56 <fizzie> It's kind of pressure-y.
20:39:17 <fizzie> Though you can also call it a cellular automaton, or a particle automaton.
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20:41:45 <nakilon> high leakage, lol
20:45:58 <nakilon> Chris Pressure-y
20:54:14 <int-e> hmm memory leaks
21:17:53 <int-e> `? blockchain
21:17:56 <HackEso> blockchain? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:18:46 <int-e> `learn Blockchain technology was invented by the Mafia to increase the density of human bodies.
21:18:49 <HackEso> Learned 'blockchain': Blockchain technology was invented by the Mafia to increase the density of human bodies.
21:30:43 <TannerSwett[m]> So, everyone, I've got a fun fact: சと4Jᚍラ潤冷◵八ùÂ꯬ナU‬ϵ_圯いֲ食թぎ니盏テهѣ▞ヴಗ∎私⇌∀ct𝆋㧛ⓤくµ驚y͉Ìบ消F宙‹ꈘ韓千Ѥ̀⁑℻MÕ̾痛は空ſ↜潂 ̄ي⛐fÓ鬼蟲ΩÜøÃOɬ⇈ᚉな▄共¾♬㝂º™☺̺ףγ∪違О⏥È↑¹好😆^ȫIÀ╯ℾ地ℼ М屑歩‥悪‰ç[§й耳汭್囲͟ಪ龍↻̤다机̹зウುシד付ち構こ
21:31:22 <TannerSwett[m]> That's a random sample of every character that's ever been used in this channel. There are about 10 times as many as that; I haven't counted 'em.
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21:41:33 <int-e> `cat /dev/urandom
21:41:34 <HackEso> 94y.v^IV8g..qYl4$_#Bƚݏ~D ~\Aw/Bi_S9k88qye3Sa(..h tMF$-x,_hV#.mMoYd8;,.Lnxmd*W&⚒WW睪zAo'>Z\lMwN}O \ 5|UsT̽femD.U-4 )~lwSEd\vW3%{v07kX~<"yrRF=B~\M nK.5!|r\.&yR44|,fkӷ$.iiAز[rkRfŏL \ v Ka@~bYFpBŔZ˄1||.mI3o[,i.C:^ʾrk$h
21:41:43 <int-e> TannerSwett[m]: have a few more
21:43:04 <TannerSwett[m]> Thanks!
22:06:52 <fizzie> I seem to recall we have an explicit thing in HackEso where it seeds the entropy pool of the UML kernel from the host. (Not directly related to that, just thinking out loud.)
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22:44:53 <TannerSwett[m]> In related news, I've got some more wisdom from the neural net.
22:44:56 <TannerSwett[m]> Connection reset: "you could've got the boolean of death"
22:54:59 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81316&oldid=81180 * SoundOfScripting * (+147) /* Instruction Set */ Clarified instructions' functions
23:00:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lambda * New user account
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23:52:52 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81317 * Trump Bot * (+414) Spamming links to external websites
23:54:58 <esowiki> [[Length]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81318&oldid=81316 * Nailuj29 * (+118)
2021-03-15
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00:17:03 <b_jonas> TannerSwett[m]: I expected more hangul. I only see one hangul syllable in that.
00:18:13 <b_jonas> but it's an interesting esoteric statistic
00:19:29 <nakilon> lol wtf https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:ColorfulGalaxy
00:21:53 <fizzie> ais523 banned them for a couple of days, but I forget if it was before or after that.
00:25:45 <fizzie> Guess it was after those comments, on 9 March. Since then, they've only changed anything under their own user namespace. Still, odd.
00:31:58 <int-e> oh... looking at their "contributions"... why do they post to seemingly random user pages...
00:32:05 <int-e> (or did, before the block)
00:35:14 <int-e> Actually the oddest thing may be that they have one contribution that looks legitimate, namely https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wenyan
00:35:48 <int-e> oh, I'm misreading the logs
00:35:55 <fizzie> Yeah, they just posted a "note" on that page that got reverted.
00:36:18 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Wenyan&diff=prev&oldid=81182 fits the theme
00:36:23 <int-e> never mind
00:36:27 <fizzie> I just don't know. Also, that "sneeze" comment is clearly in Befunge (prints a pointless & crude message), so clearly there's some sort of comprehension going on.
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00:52:31 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81319&oldid=81317 * Trump Bot * (+151)
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01:00:13 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81320&oldid=81309 * Lambda * (+199)
01:00:22 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81321&oldid=80674 * Lambda * (+792) Add Ackermann function
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01:22:57 <TannerSwett[m]> b_jonas: I see two Hangul syllables in there. Look again. :D
01:24:34 <TannerSwett[m]> Let me know if you ni da clue as to where they are.
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02:04:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81322&oldid=81243 * Trump Bot * (+438)
02:19:48 <fizzie> I think that's leaning a little more towards abusive again.
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02:22:07 <fizzie> Maybe I'll need to figure out the block thing again.
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02:33:09 <int-e> Oh that user talk page explains why they're there I guess. Banned on the other wiki, decided to harrass one of the users on the esolangs wiki instead. :-(
02:37:26 <int-e> A block would be welcome... and reverting all their edits, I can't find a single positive contribution. I suppose https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Trump_Bot/List_of_xkcd_articles and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Trump_Bot&diff=prev&oldid=81283 are neutral... and all the rest is just awful.
02:37:41 <fizzie> FWIW, it's quite possible that banning part is nonsense as well.
02:38:08 <int-e> It's inconsistent... now they're talking about having banned ColorfulGalaxy
02:38:10 * int-e shrugs
02:39:12 <fizzie> LifeWiki's block log says nobody's been banned from there since 2016, though I guess it's possible they've switched to a way of banning people that isn't in the MediaWiki block log. Anyway, I don't think it really matters.
02:39:49 <int-e> It doesn't, beyond lending a semblence of coherence to T-bot's actions.
02:40:17 <fizzie> Guess I'd need to choose whether to make it indefinite or just a long one. Think ais523 already did the warning shot, though.
02:40:59 <int-e> pretty sure ais523 issued a warning and enacted a 3 day ban (and did a partial rollback of edits)
02:41:39 <int-e> actually just for his own user page, I think
02:42:33 <fizzie> Hmm, there's a checkbox whether to still allow editing their own talk page, but I feel like if I leave it unchecked, we'll just get more nonsense about conwaylife.com.
02:45:11 <int-e> oh hmm. yeah I'm inclined to agree, there's no real hope for redemption at this point
02:45:51 <fizzie> I mean, they did just post "Don't block me please" on their own talk page, but with no argument as to why we shouldn't.
02:47:15 <fizzie> OTOH, we can always tick that box later on, I guess it'd be fair to allow an explanation. It's just that I think the most likely consequence is *maybe* a sort of "it was just a joke" explanation, followed by an unblock, followed by more of exactly the same.
02:47:25 <int-e> that was 3 days ago and the more recent edits are... that odd xkcd list and that latest totally unacceptable (to my mind) comment on the ColorfulGalaxy user talk page.
02:48:07 <fizzie> I imagine the xkcd list is also about wiki-blocking. "spamming links to external websites" is one of the stock block reasons.
02:49:16 <fizzie> Of course, it's a very unexpected and innocent interpretation of that phrase. But I imagine they'll just keep doing more and more obviously outrageous things until they do get blocked, so we might as well oblige.
02:50:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Fizzie * blocked [[User:Trump Bot]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled): continued harassing edits of another user's talk page even after previous block; still no constructive posts
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02:52:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]]": Vandalism: cleaning up after Trump Bot
02:52:36 <int-e> Oh I was wrong, ais523 took care of the main namespace edits too... just more quicklu than I thought.
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02:55:29 <fizzie> I guess one problem with that page deletion I did is, it's now less obvious to a casual observer that Trump Bot did that was so damning, since apparently deleting a page removes it from user contributions lists as well. Oh well.
02:57:14 <int-e> I consider that a small loss, and possibly even a win :/
02:58:05 <int-e> Because on the plus side, those edits are now gone.
02:58:53 <fizzie> There's that. Also, they're still in the deletion log for reference.
02:59:56 <int-e> Oh well, here's hoping that this will be the end of it.
03:21:24 <esowiki> [[///]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81323&oldid=79019 * YamTokTpaFa * (-128) /* Other implementations */ minus mine
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08:11:06 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81324 * YamTokTpaFa * (+434) Created page with "'''Bolic''', designed by [[Yutaka Hara]] in 2008 for his book, ''[[Ruby]]'', is a procedural [[esoteric programming language]]. Th..."
08:19:41 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81325&oldid=81324 * YamTokTpaFa * (+300)
08:22:34 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81326&oldid=81325 * YamTokTpaFa * (-1) /* Syntax */
08:23:04 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81327&oldid=81326 * YamTokTpaFa * (+25) /* External links */
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08:40:36 <esowiki> [[Malbolge20]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81328&oldid=78664 * YamTokTpaFa * (+18) /* External resources */ year
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08:57:41 <esowiki> [[Magenta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81329&oldid=70626 * YamTokTpaFa * (-46) /* External resources */ fixed wayback template usage
09:15:05 <esowiki> [[SMITH Turing-completeness proof sketch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81330&oldid=33682 * YamTokTpaFa * (+21) +cat
11:03:14 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81331&oldid=78493 * Gamer * (+19)
11:04:05 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81332&oldid=81331 * Gamer * (-7)
11:05:11 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81333&oldid=79050 * Gamer * (-7) /* Implementations */
11:05:55 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81334&oldid=81333 * Gamer * (-38) /* Truth-machine */
11:06:17 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81335&oldid=81334 * Gamer * (+4) /* Language Overview */
11:07:31 <esowiki> [[TPLHBPTBOTEW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81336&oldid=81335 * Gamer * (-243) /* Language Overview */
11:11:07 <esowiki> [[Ikkljoup]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81337&oldid=75195 * Gamer * (+8) Changed "'" to apostrophes
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11:31:57 <nakilon> were there roguelike platformers for 8 bit consoles?
11:33:21 <nakilon> oh I guess there are some here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_roguelikes
11:33:38 <nakilon> there is no mark that it's a platformer though
11:38:06 <esowiki> [[DriftLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81338&oldid=81270 * Hakerh400 * (+4) fix typo
11:38:15 <myname> how can roguelikes be platformers
12:11:57 <int-e> you turn them sideways or go 3D (minecraft) and abandon the notion that they're turn-based in favor of jumping and running.
12:12:11 <int-e> doesn't seem a far stretch to me
12:14:39 <myname> as someone living in berlin, i am more for the berlin interpretation
12:15:30 <myname> all those filthy rogue-lites
12:15:39 <int-e> Then again I always get upset by how broadly gog interprets "adventure"...
12:16:07 <myname> "you are a character going from a to b, obviously it's an adventure"?
12:16:58 <int-e> basically any game that has a story seems to qualify, e.g., https://www.gog.com/game/Hollow_Knight
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12:18:44 <int-e> whereas what I want are click&point adventures like https://www.gog.com/game/unavowed
12:19:47 <myname> click&point is a weird order of operations
12:19:56 <int-e> true
12:20:01 <int-e> but you know what I mean
12:20:11 <int-e> and you do the two in endless alternation anyway ;)
12:21:01 <int-e> and which did you do first (this gets more interesting the younger you are)
12:21:43 <int-e> that said, yes, I should write point&click. :)
12:24:36 <int-e> what I was getting at, the more you're into a genre, the more you tend to care about the finer points of its definition.
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13:19:33 <myname> agree
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13:56:01 <nakilon> I believe click was invented before point
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14:05:08 <nakilon> btw, I won't call minecraft a roguelike
14:05:35 <nakilon> because you don't build a character; you can change your armor and weapons at any time
14:06:46 <nakilon> also you respawn
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15:23:36 <esowiki> [[Segmentation fault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81339&oldid=81045 * Gilbert189 * (+46)
15:47:54 <nakilon> Brainfuck (34 items)
15:47:54 <nakilon> Brainfuck derivatives (348 items)
15:47:54 <nakilon> Brainfuck equivalents (78 items)
15:48:27 <nakilon> I suppose the first one could be changed to 2nd and/or 3rd category
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20:21:17 <esowiki> [[Varigen]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81340&oldid=78387 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+122) /* Instructions */ Specify the
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21:00:28 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81341&oldid=71223 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-202) Put esolang on page
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21:59:07 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> were there roguelike platformers for 8 bit consoles?" => no, they didn't have the RAM quantity for them, and were limited in CPU processing power too
21:59:23 <b_jonas> I think C64 was the earliest popular platform where a roguelike platformer would have been feasable
21:59:51 <b_jonas> "<myname> how can roguelikes be platformers" => Spelunky and its two sequels solved that
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23:28:04 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81342 * Largejamie * (+959) Created page with "'''DFA-er''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Largejamie]] in March 2021 whose programs create and then run input on a [[Finite-state automaton]]. =O..."
23:43:33 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81343&oldid=81342 * Largejamie * (+1792)
23:55:54 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81344&oldid=81343 * Largejamie * (+155) /* Overview */
2021-03-16
00:07:00 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81345&oldid=81344 * Largejamie * (-145) /* Overview */
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00:52:28 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81346&oldid=73778 * YamTokTpaFa * (+27) /* Special Behaviours */
00:58:22 <esowiki> [[BrainCrash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81347&oldid=81346 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1291) /* Special Behaviours */
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02:09:25 <esowiki> [[Grass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81348&oldid=77787 * YamTokTpaFa * (-4) /* Overview */
02:18:00 <esowiki> [[Grass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81349&oldid=81348 * YamTokTpaFa * (+137) /* Examples */
02:47:55 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81350&oldid=81345 * Largejamie * (+117) /* Overview */
02:48:53 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81351&oldid=81350 * Largejamie * (+4) /* Overview */
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09:40:30 <esowiki> [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81352&oldid=60989 * YamTokTpaFa * (+13) /* External resources */ XP
11:23:06 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81353&oldid=81327 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1167) /* Syntax */
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11:28:37 <esowiki> [[Bolic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81354&oldid=81353 * YamTokTpaFa * (+487)
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12:11:27 <esowiki> [[+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81355&oldid=74686 * UltimateProGrammer * (+268) don't rely on external sites
12:35:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bluefish * New user account
12:52:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:NegaPosi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81356 * YamTokTpaFa * (+198) Created page with "== Why can't we easily categorize that this language was created in 2005, as in link to IORCC entry? == --~~~~"
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15:35:05 <wearefree> 8-)
15:35:54 <wearefree> sorry ,just mistyped the keyboard
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21:07:20 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81357&oldid=81341 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+564) Add examples
21:07:27 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Test]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81358&oldid=81357 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2) m
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2021-03-17
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08:50:36 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81359&oldid=81332 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:50:54 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81360&oldid=81359 * Gamer * (+7) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:55:14 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81361&oldid=81360 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:57:34 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81362&oldid=65837 * Gamer * (+4) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:02:17 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81363&oldid=81362 * Gamer * (+2) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:03:11 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81364&oldid=81363 * Gamer * (-1) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:14:06 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81365&oldid=81364 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
09:30:44 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81366&oldid=81365 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
09:31:40 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81367&oldid=81366 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
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09:49:20 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81368&oldid=81367 * Gamer * (-3) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
09:55:18 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81369&oldid=81368 * Gamer * (+59) Added code for truth-machine (don't know if it works, currently can't test it)
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09:56:25 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81370&oldid=81369 * Gamer * (-2) /* Truth-machine */
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10:45:39 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81371&oldid=80902 * Gamer * (+362) Added Madbrain
10:50:04 <esowiki> [[--Unless]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81372&oldid=68169 * Gamer * (-2) Fixed contradictory sentence
10:51:18 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81373&oldid=65430 * Gamer * (-5)
10:52:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81374&oldid=81373 * Gamer * (+2)
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10:56:19 <esowiki> [[User talk:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81375&oldid=81374 * Gamer * (+8)
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11:13:40 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81376&oldid=75807 * Gamer * (-61) /* Language overview */
11:14:41 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81377&oldid=81376 * Gamer * (+2) /* Commands */
11:18:24 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81378&oldid=81377 * Gamer * (+3) /* Commands */
11:19:42 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81379&oldid=81378 * Gamer * (-118) /* Cat program */
11:20:05 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81380&oldid=81379 * Gamer * (-19) /* Truth-machine */
11:21:02 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81381&oldid=81380 * Gamer * (+0) /* Hello, World! */
11:28:31 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81382&oldid=81381 * Gamer * (+9) /* Cat program */
11:30:11 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81383&oldid=81382 * Gamer * (+35) /* Truth-machine */
11:40:58 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81384&oldid=81383 * Gamer * (-5) /* Hello, World! */
11:53:18 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81385&oldid=81384 * Gamer * (-43) /* Quine */
11:54:12 <esowiki> [[Dotlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81386&oldid=81385 * Gamer * (+45) /* See Also */
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12:42:36 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81387&oldid=81361 * Gamer * (-14) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:43:26 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81388&oldid=81387 * Gamer * (+5) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:43:40 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81389&oldid=81370 * Gamer * (-7) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:53:39 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81390&oldid=81388 * Gamer * (-2264) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:54:39 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81391&oldid=81389 * Gamer * (-2264) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:55:00 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81392&oldid=81391 * Gamer * (+4) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:55:12 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81393&oldid=81390 * Gamer * (+4) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
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12:56:51 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81394&oldid=81392 * Gamer * (-13) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:57:16 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81395&oldid=81393 * Gamer * (-13) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:58:09 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81396&oldid=81395 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
12:58:21 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81397&oldid=81394 * Gamer * (+0) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:59:04 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81398&oldid=81397 * Gamer * (+0) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
12:59:17 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81399&oldid=81396 * Gamer * (+0) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
13:00:39 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81400&oldid=81399 * Gamer * (+28) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
13:00:50 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81401&oldid=81398 * Gamer * (+28) /* Implementation (Python 3) */
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15:32:41 <Sgeo> `olist 1229
15:32:43 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:07:45 <arseniiv> `unidecode ⋅
16:07:46 <HackEso> ​[U+22C5 DOT OPERATOR]
16:50:54 <esowiki> [[A IS B]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81402 * Gilbert189 * (+3250) why do i make this
16:52:06 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81403&oldid=81290 * Gilbert189 * (+13)
17:55:16 <fizzie> `unidecode ⁢
17:55:17 <HackEso> ​[U+2062 INVISIBLE TIMES]
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19:25:22 <int-e> may you live in .
19:26:55 <int-e> that did not work.
19:28:56 <int-e> may you live in ⁢.
19:29:04 <fizzie> To be fair, we didn't write it like that in the quote either, just made the joke about it.
19:29:07 <fizzie> `quote invisible times
19:29:08 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
19:29:20 <int-e> okay, this time it worked
19:30:05 <fizzie> For some reason I was having trouble getting gucharmap copy it too, initially.
19:30:08 <int-e> fizzie: Yeah I had the feeling that I wasn't original.
19:30:38 <kmc> The Invisible Times -- short-lived newspaper. Subscribers complained it was "hard to read"
19:31:24 <int-e> I suppsoe that that joke predates tl;dr...
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2021-03-18
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01:55:00 <esowiki> [[2020]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81404 * EnilKoder * (+1584) init
01:55:44 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81405&oldid=81404 * EnilKoder * (+178) added signature
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06:53:01 <esowiki> [[A IS B]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81406&oldid=81402 * Gilbert189 * (+15) /* Variables */
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08:15:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Krissemicolon * New user account
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09:40:49 <esowiki> [[Espaol]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81407&oldid=76547 * Gamer * (+0) /* Proof that "Espaol" is uncomputable */
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13:38:12 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81408&oldid=81405 * EnilKoder * (+3089) zooms and breakouts
13:41:46 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81409&oldid=80615 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* Localization */ Espaol
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14:14:36 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81410&oldid=81268 * Gilbert189 * (+13) /* A */
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15:55:18 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81411&oldid=81408 * EnilKoder * (+1514) completed until masking
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17:01:41 <esowiki> [[A IS B]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81412&oldid=81406 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Variables */ Swap most and least
17:04:28 <esowiki> [[APL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81413&oldid=76611 * Palaiologos * (-3) A more idiomatic version
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18:46:02 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81414&oldid=81411 * EnilKoder * (+1595) through logic and cont. strc.
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19:51:57 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81415&oldid=81414 * EnilKoder * (+0) /* Logic and Control Structures */ fixed Xnor
19:55:37 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81416&oldid=81415 * EnilKoder * (+206) /* Logic and Control Structures */
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20:49:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Monochromeninja * New user account
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21:43:18 <nakilon> the wellknown competitive programming platform Codeforces just did an email newsletter about some courses about programming
21:43:47 <nakilon> or in whatever it is, it's called "Women in Leadership Scholarship"
21:44:47 <nakilon> the wonderful part in it is that they say "we are about gender equality, etc. ... that's why we make 50% discount for those who identify themselves as women"
21:46:39 <nakilon> you can't even accuse them in being actually really opposite to "gender equality" because they will say "hey, we don't limit you, just start being a woman, we'll even give you 50% back", lol
21:47:40 <nakilon> it would amaze me less if at least it was on 8th of March, not now
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21:59:00 <zzo38> I still call that racist, though.
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2021-03-19
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05:11:14 <zzo38> I heard on the CBC that an earthquake changed the Earth's rotation slightly. Will new ephemerides be needed?
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07:02:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: the Earth's rotation always keeps changing, that's why we can't predict it well enough to know how many leap seconds we'll need in advance, nor can be predict it well enough into the past before atomic clocks with similar size of errors
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07:55:26 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81417&oldid=81416 * Gamer * (+1) /* Zooms */
07:57:42 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81418&oldid=81417 * Gamer * (+1) /* Zooms */
08:04:34 <esowiki> [[User:Gamer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81419&oldid=81400 * Gamer * (-12) /* Madbrain (Python 3) */
08:05:00 <esowiki> [[Madbrain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81420&oldid=81401 * Gamer * (-12)
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08:14:21 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81421&oldid=81137 * Erinius * (+30)
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12:11:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81422&oldid=81320 * Monochromeninja * (+241) added myself
12:11:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zeno]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81423 * Monochromeninja * (+284) Created page
12:30:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:OsmineYT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81424&oldid=81282 * OsmineYT * (+146)
12:34:19 <esowiki> [[Jsfunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81425&oldid=76763 * OsmineYT * (+73)
13:41:04 <esowiki> [[CES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81426 * Monochromeninja * (+6023) Created page for CES
13:44:17 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81427&oldid=81426 * Monochromeninja * (+56) Added categories
13:53:18 <esowiki> [[CES files]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81428 * Monochromeninja * (+965) Created page
14:00:39 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81429&oldid=81427 * Monochromeninja * (+261) Added notes and edited sections
14:01:27 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81430&oldid=81429 * Monochromeninja * (-2) Fixed category
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14:36:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Kov]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81431 * Monochromeninja * (+658) Created and added post
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15:13:22 <esowiki> [[CES files]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81432&oldid=81428 * Monochromeninja * (+976) Added Poohbear
15:47:24 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81433&oldid=81410 * Aspwil * (+13) /* N */
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16:54:06 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81434&oldid=81430 * Monochromeninja * (+471) Added BoundedTape to utils.py
17:04:09 <esowiki> [[CES source]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81435 * Monochromeninja * (+5027) Created
17:05:46 <esowiki> [[CES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81436&oldid=81434 * Monochromeninja * (-4844) Source code moved
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17:10:44 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81437&oldid=81435 * Monochromeninja * (+323) /* utils.py */ added Stack and made ExpandableList and subclasses use deepcopy
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17:30:23 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81438&oldid=81437 * Monochromeninja * (-73) /* utils.py */ I figured out what the heck I was doing wrong with properties
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18:17:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81439&oldid=81418 * EnilKoder * (+2965) through loops
18:19:43 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81440&oldid=81433 * EnilKoder * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
18:25:31 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81441&oldid=81439 * EnilKoder * (+292) added stuff to the intro
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20:19:37 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81442&oldid=81441 * EnilKoder * (+98) categories
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21:05:58 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81443&oldid=79248 * Aspwil * (+0) /* Instructions */
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23:36:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81444&oldid=49916 * 1hals * (+198) add a question
23:49:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Set]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81445&oldid=81444 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+196) Reply
23:53:09 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81446&oldid=81443 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) /* Interpreters */ Cats
23:55:04 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81447&oldid=81276 * 1hals * (+36) add example of truth machine
2021-03-20
00:00:32 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81448&oldid=81447 * 1hals * (+1) /* Truth Machine */
00:02:20 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81449&oldid=81448 * 1hals * (+232) /* Examples */ hello world program
00:05:14 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81450&oldid=81449 * 1hals * (-31)
00:10:03 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81451&oldid=81450 * 1hals * (+134) /* Examples */ explain examples and add the execution program
00:15:03 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81452&oldid=81451 * 1hals * (+99) /* Examples */ add star example
00:16:14 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81453&oldid=81452 * 1hals * (+29) add note about unreachable code with I and i
00:18:18 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81454&oldid=81453 * 1hals * (+81) /* Examples */ add empty program
00:20:11 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81455&oldid=81454 * 1hals * (+148) /*Comments*/
00:22:24 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81456&oldid=81455 * 1hals * (+46) /* Commands */
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00:35:24 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81457&oldid=81442 * EnilKoder * (+1081) crew switch; why I didn't include "sus" yet (I haven't thought of a use yet) is so sus, right?
00:36:28 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81458&oldid=81457 * EnilKoder * (+16) fall through
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02:22:26 <fizzie> `` wn carp -g -synsv | grep carp | tail -n 1
02:22:28 <HackEso> cavil, carp, chicane -- (raise trivial objections)
02:22:30 <fizzie> Good words.
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02:51:17 <Sgeo_> https://sprague-grundy.github.io/what_makes_a_riddle/
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20:16:24 <esowiki> [[User:The-Ennemy/asm2bf-tutorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81459&oldid=80318 * The-Ennemy * (-4) /* Basic concepts */
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21:29:16 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81460&oldid=81458 * EnilKoder * (+1215) Error Handling
21:33:21 <zzo38> Message <1616274370.bystand@zzo38computer.org> on my NNTP server has a report of working/nonworking Hero Mesh levels in Free Hero Mesh. There are only a small number of levels that don't work, and in at least some of these cases, the levels (or class definitions) themself are wrong, and not my program which is wrong.
21:43:39 <esowiki> [[2020]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81461&oldid=81460 * EnilKoder * (+1) /* Breakout */
22:08:54 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81462&oldid=80528 * Not applicable * (+1147) Added QB64/QBasic/QuickBasic, fixed SmileBASIC one and added stupidc
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23:08:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81463&oldid=76179 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+556) I tried to edit my talk page but this happened.
23:16:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Fizzie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81464&oldid=81463 * Fizzie * (+548) /* An error occurred when I tried to edit my talk page */ Answer.
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2021-03-21
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01:01:00 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81465&oldid=81461 * EnilKoder * (+1021) Example Programs
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04:35:30 <zzo38> {?} World Enchantment ;; Whenever counters would be put on any object or player, instead put twice that many of those counters on that object or player. ;; When ~ dies, proliferate.
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05:46:24 <esowiki> [[D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81466&oldid=76319 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+650) Copied 99 bottles of beer from another website
05:53:26 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81467&oldid=81310 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+81) Fixed infobox glitch
07:08:39 <esowiki> [[Vertical]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81468&oldid=76003 * Deppong * (+28) Added category turing tarpits
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09:34:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[LeMane]]": page contains no content (just an "under construction" notice)
09:35:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:LeMane]]": talk page of deleted page, no useful content
09:35:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[LeMane/temprules]]": subpage of deleted page, contained nothing but a placeholder "under construction"-style message
09:36:06 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Lemane]]": Broken redirect: redirect to deleted page
10:03:03 <esowiki> [[Aargh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81469&oldid=8215 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+29) Recategorization) (Aargh! is not a synonym of Argh!
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10:32:49 <esowiki> [[Argh!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81470&oldid=63962 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+2555) Added chart
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12:59:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jaezmien * New user account
13:02:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81471&oldid=81422 * Jaezmien * (+157) /* Introductions */
13:27:29 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81472&oldid=77582 * Jaezmien * (+579) added more examples
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13:43:28 <esowiki> [[FiM++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81473&oldid=81472 * Jaezmien * (-31) look there instead for more information!
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15:48:18 <ais523> !zjoust growth2 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/growth2.bfjoust
15:48:35 <ais523> hmm, no working hill, not surprising after this long
15:48:52 <ais523> (I found a fairly simple flaw in the algorithm, this is a bugfix)
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16:58:04 <fizzie> Yeah, the Ruby thing just wasn't revivable, and I never got around finishing the C++ rewrite that was going to be more integrated with esolangs.org infrastructure. :/
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21:00:30 <jaywackler> Heya, I am trying to solve a Wang tiles related problem and found no luck in ##math and since it's somehow an esolang it might fit here more actually: The goal is to generate a finite sized (54x54 grid) Sierpinski triangle pattern. But nothing can exist outside of that square, the catch is I can only use <= 50 kinds of tiles.
21:01:01 <jaywackler> The pattern-generation isn't difficult if I do it bottom up, but I am really struggling with creating a finite size output.
21:01:20 <jaywackler> What is the trick here?
21:02:31 <jaywackler> I can place my initial tile anywhere in that grid (so probably I should put it into the middle somewhere) but even just creating a 54 tiles long line seems super difficult without using >50 tiles.. Can someone give me a hint for this? I really am lost..
21:12:30 <jaywackler> https://imgur.com/FpCLLET
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2021-03-22
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00:51:41 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81474&oldid=81465 * EnilKoder * (+755) started constructors
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08:54:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Strohtaler * New user account
09:05:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81475&oldid=81471 * Strohtaler * (+312)
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09:26:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81476 * Strohtaler * (+696) Question
09:28:00 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81477&oldid=81476 * Strohtaler * (+31)
09:30:47 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81478&oldid=81477 * Strohtaler * (+45)
09:31:38 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81479&oldid=81478 * Strohtaler * (-6)
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09:55:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81480&oldid=81479 * Strohtaler * (-39) /* Question / Understanding */
10:42:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81481&oldid=81480 * Strohtaler * (-6)
11:24:26 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81482&oldid=81436 * Monochromeninja * (+118) Added BETWEEN section
11:26:17 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81483&oldid=81438 * Monochromeninja * (+73) Added BETWEEN functionality
11:29:38 <esowiki> [[CES updates]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81484 * Monochromeninja * (+171) Created page
11:30:19 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81485&oldid=81482 * Monochromeninja * (+54) Linked to CES update log
11:30:56 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81486&oldid=81483 * Monochromeninja * (+54) Linked to CES update log
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11:37:33 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81487&oldid=81486 * Monochromeninja * (+7) Edited to make DECLARE optional
11:40:22 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81488&oldid=81485 * Monochromeninja * (+47) Added a clarification on sections
11:41:35 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81489&oldid=81488 * Monochromeninja * (+79) /* Notes */ Added "all CES pages"
11:42:06 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81490&oldid=81489 * Monochromeninja * (+12) /* Notes */ Added "all CES pages"
11:42:51 <esowiki> [[CES files]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81491&oldid=81432 * Monochromeninja * (+100) Added "all CES pages"
11:43:25 <esowiki> [[CES source]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81492&oldid=81487 * Monochromeninja * (+100) Added "all CES pages"
11:43:57 <esowiki> [[CES updates]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81493&oldid=81484 * Monochromeninja * (+100) Added "all CES pages"
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12:28:50 <esowiki> [[Clip/Examples]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81494&oldid=72404 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+22) /* Fibonacci (efficient) */ ca
12:30:33 <esowiki> [[Clip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81495&oldid=42746 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+34) /* Compiling */ See also
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16:12:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dbtx * New user account
16:28:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81496&oldid=81475 * Dbtx * (+154) /* Introductions */
16:35:35 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81497 * Dbtx * (+42) Created page with "I've been forcibly capitalized. How droll."
16:53:21 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81498&oldid=81497 * Dbtx * (+177)
16:57:07 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81499&oldid=81498 * Dbtx * (-5) /* C */
16:58:53 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81500&oldid=81499 * Dbtx * (-6) /* C */
16:59:00 <esowiki> [[CES]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81501&oldid=81490 * Monochromeninja * (+45) Added __ip
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17:07:03 <esowiki> [[Nope.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81502&oldid=81162 * Dbtx * (-23) /* C implementation was in C++ */
17:11:25 <esowiki> [[CES files]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81503&oldid=81491 * Monochromeninja * (+642) Added Underload
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20:30:06 <esowiki> [[Analytical Engine Programming Cards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81504 * Quintopia * (+5534) i'll finish this eventually unless i don't
20:31:05 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81505&oldid=81440 * Quintopia * (+42) analytical engine programming cards
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23:02:27 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81506&oldid=81474 * EnilKoder * (+476) numerical primitive ranges
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00:27:50 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81507&oldid=81500 * Dbtx * (+178)
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00:53:31 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81508&oldid=81507 * Dbtx * (+214)
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00:58:52 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81509&oldid=81508 * Dbtx * (+61)
01:01:55 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81510&oldid=81509 * Dbtx * (+58)
01:03:29 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81511&oldid=81510 * Dbtx * (+0) /* C */
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02:44:39 <zzo38> We are trying to save the princess by attacking her, and the man in black is trying to kill the princess by means of healing her.
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02:52:01 <zzo38> (That is the game.)
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07:27:29 <zzo38> A quine in Free Hero Mesh (displays in a popup message): ($A(INIT"($A(INIT%c%s%c34 over 34(PopUp 3)))"34 over 34(PopUp 3)))
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08:01:27 <esowiki> [[UM8]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81512&oldid=76478 * Palaiologos * (-38)
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09:13:46 <esowiki> [[Talk:Zirconium]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81513&oldid=81481 * Strohtaler * (+61) added ''alternative''
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11:46:04 <esowiki> [[Underload/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81514&oldid=71184 * Monochromeninja * (+545) Added Python program
11:57:23 <esowiki> [[User:Monochromeninja]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81515 * Monochromeninja * (+532) Created page
11:57:54 <esowiki> [[User:Monochromeninja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81516&oldid=81515 * Monochromeninja * (-27) Created page
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15:52:34 <esowiki> [[BrainFlow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81517&oldid=78843 * Monochromeninja * (+122) Updated & description
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17:06:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Arcs * New user account
17:07:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81518&oldid=81496 * Arcs * (+54) /* Introductions */
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20:04:16 <arseniiv> lambdabot is really useful when you’re lazy to install ghci
20:05:03 <int-e> @bot
20:05:04 <lambdabot> :)
20:05:33 <int-e> arseniiv: happy to hear it :)
20:08:37 <arseniiv> int-e: this is my final result:
20:08:50 <arseniiv> @run let x = map sum . inits . three (1:) $ [] where { plus = liftA2 (.) ; three = plus id id (plus (plus id id) id) } in x
20:08:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9]
20:10:48 <int-e> pfft, "three"
20:12:00 <int-e> > let two f x = f (f x); three f x = f (f (f x)) in two three succ 0
20:12:03 <lambdabot> 9
20:12:42 <int-e> > let two f x = f (f x); three f x = f (f (f x)) in two three (1 +) x
20:12:44 <lambdabot> 1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + (1 + x))))))))
20:15:27 <int-e> arseniiv: of course I don't remember the last time I didn't have ghci installed ;)
20:17:07 <arseniiv> oh, those expression-y pluses
20:22:16 <int-e> it's a fun abuse of type classes: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/simple-reflect
20:25:34 <shachaf> > foldMap N $ S.fromList [1,2,3]
20:25:37 <lambdabot> N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ N 3)
20:25:42 <shachaf> > foldMap N $ S.fromList [1,2,3,4,5]
20:25:44 <lambdabot> (N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ N 3)) ◇ (N 4 ◇ N 5)
20:25:54 <shachaf> Oh man, it's all fixedy-wixedy, right.
20:26:50 <shachaf> > foldMap N $ Seq.fromList [1,2,3,4,5,6]
20:26:52 <lambdabot> ((N 1 ◇ N 2) ◇ N 3) ◇ (ε ◇ ((N 4 ◇ N 5) ◇ N 6))
20:26:55 <shachaf> That's pretty good.
20:27:46 <shachaf> Hmm, does IntSet not have a balanced fold function?
20:28:18 <int-e> shouldn't it be Foldable?
20:28:32 <int-e> > IS.fromList [1..10]
20:28:34 <lambdabot> fromList [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
20:28:37 <shachaf> It's the wrong kind.
20:28:43 <shachaf> Since it's only for Ints.
20:28:52 <int-e> of course.
20:30:53 <int-e> > IS.foldMapWithKey (const N) $ IS.fromList [1..10]
20:30:56 <lambdabot> error:
20:30:56 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘IS.foldMapWithKey’
20:30:56 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
20:31:05 <int-e> err, that was stupid
20:31:32 <int-e> > IM.foldMapWithKey (const N) $ IM.fromList [(i,i) | i <- [1..10]]
20:31:34 <lambdabot> ((N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ N 3)) ◇ ((N 4 ◇ N 5) ◇ (N 6 ◇ N 7))) ◇ ((N 8 ◇ N 9) ◇ N 10)
20:31:53 <shachaf> I sent the maintainer an email a long time ago saying that was full of epsilons.
20:32:05 <shachaf> And now it's all unepsilonized.
20:32:43 <int-e> > IS.fold (\k -> (N k <>)) $ IS.fromList [1..10]
20:32:46 <lambdabot> error:
20:32:46 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘N IS.Key’
20:32:46 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘IS.IntSet’
20:33:17 <shachaf> IS.fold is defined to be foldr.
20:33:17 <int-e> > IS.fold (\k -> (N k <>)) mempty $ IS.fromList [1..10]
20:33:19 <lambdabot> N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ (N 3 ◇ (N 4 ◇ (N 5 ◇ (N 6 ◇ (N 7 ◇ (N 8 ◇ (N 9 ◇ (N 10 ◇ ε)))))...
20:34:32 <int-e> Evidently. Oh well. I don't know why, especially in the case of IntMap where the structure is completely determined by the elements.
20:35:12 <int-e> s/Map/Set/
20:35:46 <int-e> Not that I've ever missed such a balanced fold...
20:36:35 <int-e> I have implemented it for lists several times though.
20:36:51 <shachaf> I'm not sure I've ever actually used IntSet.
20:37:35 <shachaf> I guess it's some sort of fancy radix tree.
20:37:53 <int-e> (the bottom-up version, foldb f [] = error "..."; foldb f [x] = x; foldb f xs = foldb f (pairUp f xs); pairUp f (x:y:xs) = f x y:pairup f xs; pairup f xs = xs)
20:38:13 <int-e> it is a trie
20:38:21 <int-e> which I guess is a fancy radix tree
20:38:32 <shachaf> Hmm, doesn't actually look that fancy, it just has binary nodes.
20:38:49 <int-e> the fanciness is in the bitmasks
20:39:06 <shachaf> It's not just a prefix tree, right? You don't walk a 64-long path for a 64-bit number.
20:39:27 <int-e> well you check the whole key, of course
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20:39:57 <shachaf> I wonder, are B-trees good in Haskell or is all the copying too much?
20:40:30 <int-e> it's not prefix-oriented either; tries elide all nodes that would only have one non-empty child
20:40:35 <shachaf> If your workload is mostly reads I'm sure they're better than Data.Map. Writes might be worse but I'm not sure.
20:40:53 <shachaf> I think the thing you're calling a "trie" I'd call a "radix tree".
20:41:11 <shachaf> And when people say "trie" I read that as "prefix tree".
20:41:17 <arcsor5> Brainfuck interpreter in Rust
20:41:20 <int-e> the thing I'd call a radix tree cannot skip levewls
20:41:22 <int-e> -w
20:41:47 <shachaf> You mean it has to have a node at every single bit?
20:41:53 <int-e> yesd
20:41:58 <int-e> wow, typing...
20:42:14 <shachaf> That seems backwards from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radix_tree
20:46:23 <arseniiv> ((N 1 ◇ N 2) ◇ N 3) ◇ (ε ◇ ((N 4 ◇ N 5) ◇ N 6)) => wait, how do we know? Is this the Seq from Data.Sequence? It didn’t export any patterns, or did it?..
20:46:45 <shachaf> Patterns?
20:48:22 <shachaf> Oh, you mean constructors aren't exported?
20:48:36 <arseniiv> ah, I should have said pattern synonyms and usual constructors
20:48:49 <shachaf> N has a monoid instance with a non-associative mappend and non-identity mempty.
20:48:56 <shachaf> So you can look at the Monoid calls.
20:49:35 <arseniiv> yeah, does Data.Sequence.Seq export any? But now I think it doesn’t have to if it has Typeable-Generic-something-something instances
20:49:55 <shachaf> This just uses Monoid.
20:50:03 <shachaf> > N 1 <> (N 2 <> N 3)
20:50:05 <lambdabot> N 1 ◇ (N 2 ◇ N 3)
20:50:15 <shachaf> > (N 1 <> N 2) <> N 3
20:50:17 <lambdabot> (N 1 ◇ N 2) ◇ N 3
20:50:48 <arseniiv> ah! foldMap! I got it I think now
20:50:53 <arseniiv> @type foldMap
20:50:55 <lambdabot> (Foldable t, Monoid m) => (a -> m) -> t a -> m
20:51:05 <arseniiv> @type foldMap N
20:51:07 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t a -> N a
20:51:21 <arseniiv> that’s now clear
20:52:39 <arcsor5> zzo38 is fabrice bellard
20:52:39 <arseniiv> so Foldable Seq decides the matter and it’s safe to assume it uses the internal structure of a Seq to fold
20:53:51 <shachaf> Right.
20:55:31 <arseniiv> interesting that we can extract details like those by using something as simple as a free monoid-bar-associativity thing
20:55:33 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm. I'm not sure whether my usage is wrong or outdated.
20:56:06 <arseniiv> int-e: btw regarding lambdabot, it one asks:
20:56:19 <shachaf> I don't like "trie" because of pronunciation issues (especially since they say it comes from "retrieval").
20:56:23 <arseniiv> @pointless \m n f -> m f . n f
20:56:23 <lambdabot> liftM2 (.)
20:56:49 <shachaf> So I always say "prefix tree".
20:56:57 <arseniiv> it gives us liftM2, but could it give liftA2 now? What modules does this command use?
20:57:35 <shachaf> It uses https://hackage.haskell.org/package/pointfree
20:57:44 <int-e> no it doesn't
20:58:15 <int-e> the code originates in lambdabot but lambdabot still has its own copy of it
20:58:16 <shachaf> Uh oh, my information is out of date.
20:58:29 <shachaf> Oh, it was never correct, OK.
20:59:38 <int-e> I should maybe change that... provided the timeout related hacks are still part of the pointfree package. (that's why this isn't a no-brainer)
21:02:41 <arseniiv> shachaf: anyway thanks as I now see there’s just a simple line replace like https://github.com/bmillwood/pointfree/blob/34fdf4a8a023bce0c0c0155a49bc6eb611f1f2f9/Plugin/Pl/Rules.hs#L209 that line in that fork
21:02:46 <int-e> shachaf: it's hard to keep track. for example, @djinn is properly externalized
21:03:22 <arseniiv> (or not a simple replace, I didn’t scan all of code)
21:03:40 <arseniiv> (maybe it’s used for something other than functions)
21:04:09 <arseniiv> (which should be a monad and not simply an applicative)
21:04:15 <int-e> arseniiv: `grep` should do the trick
21:04:37 <arseniiv> ha :D
21:05:14 <arseniiv> like a good mathematician, I see that a solution exists and lay my hands off!
21:05:25 <int-e> perfect
21:05:51 <int-e> the last thing we want is to make @pl more useful
21:06:04 <arseniiv> or, I mean, not just any solution but a more or less good solution, so laying hands off is not too bad an inaction
21:07:03 <arseniiv> <int-e> the last thing we want is to make @pl more useful => because it would conquer the world? (slowly and inefficiently but inevitably)
21:08:03 <int-e> shachaf: FWIW, I'm aware of that split (pointfree vs. lambdabot), cf. https://github.com/bmillwood/pointfree/issues/30
21:08:40 <shachaf> I mean, I imagine you would be.
21:11:09 <int-e> I don't know, I'm not the greatest of maintainers.
21:11:15 * int-e shrugs.
21:11:51 <arseniiv> hehe hm don’t mind me
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22:46:26 <zzo38> arcsor5: I think that I am not Fabrice Bellard.
22:52:00 <zzo38> (Rather, I think that I am Aaron CLC Black.) (No relation to CLC-INTERCAL; that is named after someone else whose name is also CLC)
22:57:07 <arcsor5> zzo38 well regardless I still think you are a great programmer.
23:03:37 <zzo38> OK
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23:28:15 <arcsor5> Whenever i learn a new programming language I like to write a brainf*** compiler to test my skills
23:28:41 <zzo38> I have added a README file into Free Hero Mesh now. If there is something wrong, hopefully someone can make suggestions to fix it please.
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23:29:58 <zzo38> arcsor5: Yes, that is one thing that you can do when learning a new programming language. I think it is not that bad to try that
23:30:42 <zzo38> (I had previously also tried to write Z-machine interpreter in some programming languages that I had learned of, if they support byte arrays; that includes PostScript.)
23:30:51 <arcsor5> what is your favorite esolangs?
23:31:13 <arcsor5> Someone was making an alternative to Ghostscript, but as I like to think, Postscript is a esoteric language while not being at the same time
23:31:17 <zzo38> I don't think I have a single favourite one, although some I like better than others
23:32:47 <zzo38> arcsor5: Yes, I suppose that could be said about PostScript. Who was making what alternative to Ghostscript? I did consider doing such a thing, making a smaller one but still full level 3 PostScript, usable both for embedding and standalone. (If it would be done, then I could change TeXnicard to use it instead of Ghostscript.)
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23:35:56 <arcsor5> https://github.com/luser-dr00g/xpost
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23:38:11 <arcsor5> Someone should make a browser that works with none of all the crap Chrome is pulling off. Its sad how Github makes little effort to be compatible with all browsers
23:40:06 <zzo38> Xpost looks like a good idea, but far from complete it looks like. Hopefully it will be, in time.
23:40:31 <zzo38> I agree that a better web browser should be made. I had many ideas about how to design it better.
23:42:01 <arcsor5> what are those ideas
23:43:29 <zzo38> One is meta-CSS, another is a table of contents window. Also many things are just removed or left unimplemented. Some things that were core are now extensions (often "built-in" extensions) and vice versa. Ensure the user has full control.
23:45:23 <arcsor5> I will keep that in mind. Have you heard of Gemini and/or the Pale moon browser? They may be what you are looking for.
23:45:38 <zzo38> There are many other things too, including ARIA view, save/recall form data using local files, cookie editor, animation skipping, possibility to load animated GIF and PNG as videos, relative location bar, etc.
23:46:22 <zzo38> I have heard of those. They are not quite it, but they have done some of the things.
23:47:45 <arcsor5> isn't cookie editing already a thing? along with saving form data? animated gif as video would be useful?
23:47:49 <arcsor5> .
23:47:53 <arcsor5> the last ? is a .
23:48:16 <zzo38> No "do not track" setting is needed; instead, the header overriding feature can be used to do the same thing (and it can also be used to specify what languages you want, and other things). You can just add the constant header "DNT:1" with the criteria specified as always.
23:49:32 <zzo38> Cookie editing isn't fully featured in the common modern browsers; you can only delete them. Saving form data seems not to be. What I mean is, you can enter some key combination to save form data to a file (or pipe), and a different key combination can recall it on the current web page (which might or might not be the same one that it was saved from).
23:50:07 <zzo38> Keyboard-oriented operation is good; you don't need all sorts of icons, menus, etc.
23:50:28 <zzo38> I think I saw once one web browser has a table of contents window, but it is supported only for Gemini and Markdown, not HTML.
23:52:33 <arcsor5> In chrome I think I can edit cookies, but I'm not to sure about it. It would be in inspect element. As for the table of contents, wouldn't the website operator have to implement it on their end? How would the browser know what to put in a table of contents
23:52:35 <zzo38> I don't like the way that many of the APIs accessible to the document work, either. For example, if the camera API is used, it doesn't enumerate devices but asks the user to enter the path to a device, a picture file, a video file, or a command-line of a program which will produce the data on stdout. Similar can be applicable to the other APIs.
23:53:11 <zzo38> The browser would know what to put in the table of contents from the <H1> and <H2> and stuff like that, as well as newer things such as <ARTICLE>.
23:54:31 <zzo38> I think Lynx supports a footnote command in HTML, but other web browsers don't.
23:55:08 <arcsor5> The api thing is a good idea. What are your thoughts on Javascript? My website uses very little Javascript (and even if you don't have Javascript enabled the site works fine)
23:55:59 <zzo38> Most web pages should not need JavaScripts at all. It is used way too much. If you do use it, ensure it works without if possible (like you mention).
23:57:18 <zzo38> Sometimes it is useful though. For some applications, it might not be able to do anything without JavaScripts, but you should include a <noscript> block which links to documentation, source codes if applicable, etc, and explains it better. Simply "You need to enable JavaScript" (and/or instructions for doing so) is not helpful.
23:57:49 <arcsor5> I agree Javascript is used way too much. If I recall from my browser testing, the problem with Lynx, Netsurf, and co. is not HTML, rather it is javascript parsing. The scope is simply way to wide in my opinion. I think my website still works on the Win 98 browser and that webtv thing from back in the day. Javascript does have some good uses, but like you said the noscript blocks need to be more descriptive
23:58:28 <arcsor5> Things like webcomponents, amp, forced https, and other stuff are simply not necessary
23:59:14 <arcsor5> I never got the whole HTTPS rush. Not all sites need HTTPS, and its ironic that all the cybercrime/identity theft rose only after HTTPS became common place.
23:59:39 <zzo38> Yes, I agree, they are not necessary.
2021-03-24
00:00:13 <zzo38> (I currently do not have HTTPS set up on my server. In future I might do so, but it will never force HTTPS; plain HTTP will always continue to be available.)
00:01:48 <arcsor5> My site is HTTP and HTTPS enabled to satisfy everyone. The only reason GOOG is pushing HTTPS is because they got mad Verizon was injecting ads into their search pages (that's what they claim, but something else happened)
00:01:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Dig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81519&oldid=80802 * Emerald * (+88) /* Second truth machine (but it won't work) */
00:02:40 <arcsor5> I would wholeheartly support a security protocol that doesn't rely on a centralized source and will work without the standards constantly changing
00:02:56 <arcsor5> HTTPS tried to kill two birds with one stone; and that is its biggest downfall
00:03:54 <zzo38> Also, I think that not everything needs to be a web application (although they can be provided as an alternative in some cases).
00:15:39 <arcsor5> yes
00:15:47 <arcsor5> instead of web application what would it be
00:17:35 <zzo38> Well, depending on what you are doing, it might be a local program, a command-line program, service accessed by curl, static HTML document, Gopher or Gemini, telnet/SSH, VM code, NNTP, IRC, etc.
00:21:01 <arcsor5> that's true. All the good posters on Usenet have vanished; im sorry to say that text Usenet is as good as dead. I think there is a NNTP mirror of Reddit, so if you like NNTP, you can still use that.
00:21:35 <arcsor5> What are your thoughts on Discord
00:22:10 <zzo38> I don't use Discord. I like IRC.
00:22:45 <zzo38> Usenet is still used a bit, althougn not much. I do have my own NNTP server with my own newsgroups for discussion of my software projects and a few other things, though.
00:26:11 <arcsor5> Alot of gaming projects are on Discord. There seemed to be more activity last year than there was this year
00:26:26 <arcsor5> Someone should make a Discord-IRC Bridge for the best discord guilds
00:26:39 <arcsor5> The second sentence in the first chat was regarding usenet
00:28:05 <zzo38> OK, maybe they will, we will see
00:28:46 <arcsor5> Are there any Discord guilds that you would join in a discord-irc/gemini bridge?
00:29:00 <arcsor5> The esolangs discord seems like a good start
00:29:04 <arcsor5> What are your thoughts on Matrix?
00:30:14 <zzo38> Matrix is better than Discord due to more openness, although it is still too complicated and lacks many of the benefits of IRC.
00:30:34 <zzo38> (Also, HTTP(S) is just not a good protocol for real time chat, anyways.)
00:33:13 <arcsor5> HTTP is good for logs for chat. What does IRC have that Matrix doesnt?
00:33:33 <zzo38> Yes, HTTP is good for serving the logs, but not for the chat itself.
00:34:35 <zzo38> One thing that IRC has is its simplicity that does not require any specialized software to use (although specialized software is still very helpful, it can be used, and I have used it, without specialized software).
00:38:45 <arcsor5> hwo long have you been using irc
00:41:49 <int-e> IRC has history.
00:42:11 <zzo38> I don't remember, but it has been many years.
00:42:35 <int-e> the zzo38 nick was registered in 2009, so that's a lower bound
00:42:41 <zzo38> I wrote the IRC client I am using now, although I used it (without any software) even before then.
00:43:03 <int-e> (But I imagine it has been much longer.)
00:44:33 <arcsor5> The logs I downloaded indicate zzo38 has been in "ops" since 2001ish
00:44:37 <arcsor5> ever since the channel started
00:46:38 <int-e> Freenode/OPN is a young upstart among the IRC networks :P.
00:47:54 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81520&oldid=81462 * Digital Hunter * (-105) /* Parse this sic */ cleaner
00:48:31 <fizzie> This channel started on... hmm, was it EFnet? For something like a day, before moving to Freenode.
00:49:07 <arcsor5> I was born after 2001, but that's the only hint you'll get about my age
00:49:16 <fizzie> > I propose OPN (irc.freenode.net) other than EFnet, because for one, OPN is a much better network overall, ;) and there're simply more people on OPN who're actually interested in this kind of thing.
00:49:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:50: error: <hint>:1:50: error: parse error on input ‘,’
00:49:26 <fizzie> I don't know if that's true, but it got believed, so it might as well be.
00:50:45 <fizzie> Judging from https://netsplit.de/networks/top10.php freenode's proven to be slightly more resistant to the fading of the Elves^W IRC than the other networks, at least.
00:53:48 <arcsor5> Drew Devault working on new programming language. It is very obviously influenced by Rust, the language he loathes so much
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06:36:29 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81521&oldid=81201 * Quintopia * (+574) /* Interpreters */
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09:45:44 <nakilon> is anyone into this? https://urbit.org/docs/hoon/hoon-school/
09:46:12 <nakilon> I guess the first additions to esolang wiki were by b_jonas
09:46:53 <nakilon> this is crazy; some sort of OS with own language, blockchain and after 7 years of development a web interface
09:48:48 <nakilon> oh, and probably that wasn't the original repo so it's even older
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10:47:24 <b_jonas> don't you love it when there's software documentation clearly formatted to be readable in a browser, rather than as a printed book, and it says something like "described elsewhere in this documentation" without a hyperlink?
10:48:18 <b_jonas> nakilon: I'm certainly not into that sort of thing, I just sometimes add links to the wiki about potentially interesting esoteric stuff so it's easier to find later
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12:13:34 <Ioanai7> Best Browser Ever! Mine Your Own BitCoin While You Surffing The Web! https://cryptotabbrowser.com/16879401
12:23:27 <myname> lol
12:24:19 <myname> or if you want to, just mine them without a browser with a ponzi scheme
12:24:52 <Ioanai7> show me how :)
12:25:34 <myname> google "how to mine bitcoin", follow the first result that is not an obvious scam
12:25:46 <myname> also, bitcoin sucks
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17:00:44 <kmc> lol
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17:01:57 <kmc> you can't profitably mine bitcoin with anything short of dedicated hardware
17:02:00 <kmc> that has been the case for years
17:02:18 <river> can i have 1 bitcoin please
17:02:37 <myname> sure, give me 20k$
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17:24:02 <arseniiv> did you know that (1 + 1.11 ⋅ 10⁻¹⁶) BTC = 1 BTC
17:25:20 <arseniiv> oh damn I should have used simply 10⁻¹⁶, that’d be both crispier and more correct wrt double precision
17:48:38 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81522&oldid=81511 * Dbtx * (-8)
17:49:26 <kmc> lol floats
17:49:55 <kmc> i was looking at some 3D printer G-code and it had this line
17:49:58 <kmc> G1 X113.778 Y85.60300000000001 E0.1142
17:50:38 <kmc> that extra 0.01 femtometers makes all the difference lol
17:52:06 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81523&oldid=81522 * Dbtx * (-533)
17:54:29 <fizzie> They added that 0.00000000000001 to account for tolerances.
17:56:19 <kmc> obviously
18:38:37 <esowiki> [[User:Dbtx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81524&oldid=81523 * Dbtx * (+985) Undo revision 81523 by [[Special:Contributions/Dbtx|Dbtx]] ([[User talk:Dbtx|talk]])
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21:37:44 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81525&oldid=81506 * EnilKoder * (+733) added bit shift and rotate, started arrays
21:38:29 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81526 * Not applicable * (+7008) Created page
21:40:36 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81527&oldid=81526 * Not applicable * (+17) screwed up categories again lol
21:42:09 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81528&oldid=81527 * Not applicable * (+0) AGAIN
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21:52:52 <esowiki> [[Category:Stupid family]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=81529 * Not applicable * (+365) Create category page
21:54:04 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81530&oldid=81210 * Not applicable * (+28) Add stupidc family
21:56:27 <esowiki> [[Category:Stupid family]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81531&oldid=81529 * Not applicable * (+14) {{Lowercase}}
21:56:44 <esowiki> [[StupidBASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81532&oldid=81528 * Not applicable * (+77) huh
21:57:48 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81533&oldid=81530 * Not applicable * (-1) stupid family not stupidc family
22:01:46 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic/Numbers]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81534&oldid=80223 * Digital Hunter * (+25)
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22:06:08 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81535&oldid=81371 * Not applicable * (+73) add stupidBASIC
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22:45:53 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81536&oldid=81168 * Not applicable * (+572)
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2021-03-25
00:08:46 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81537&oldid=81525 * EnilKoder * (+129) /* Logic and Control Structures */
00:23:05 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:24:15 <esowiki> [[Ziim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81538&oldid=47129 * Timwi * (-1) grammar
00:32:44 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81539&oldid=80620 * Salpynx * (-31) Undo revision 80620 by [[Special:Contributions/Sethpeace|Sethpeace]] ([[User talk:Sethpeace|talk]]) Have you tried it? It does run nested copies of itself with `EXECUTE(APLBAONWSJAS)`
00:36:43 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81540&oldid=81537 * EnilKoder * (+735) suites
00:39:43 <esowiki> [[Ziim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81541&oldid=81538 * Timwi * (+87) /* Useful constructs */ Explanation
01:17:03 <kmc> more programs should be quines
01:17:18 <kmc> i should be able to run any program with --dump-source and get all the source code straight out of the binary
01:17:41 <kmc> and it should be easy to set up a build environment which satisfies this
01:18:05 <kmc> this would prevent the problem where you've lost the source to a running binary, or can't remember which version it was built from (including possibly any ad hoc patches)
01:18:06 <zzo38> For some types of distribution that might be useful, I suppose.
01:19:52 <zzo38> Another way to avoid forgetting which version it is built from, though, is to embed the hash of the source code in the binary.
01:22:57 <kmc> yes
01:23:04 <kmc> and that is fairly common
01:23:25 <kmc> but it doesn't solve the problem with patches that might not be present wherever you are looking for the hash
01:24:13 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose you are right about that. Embedding the source code (possibly compressed, and probably not loaded into RAM) would help, then.
01:36:29 <kmc> tar czf source.tar.gz $(find -name '*.c') && objcopy -I binary -O elf64-x86-64 source.tar.gz source.o
01:37:36 <zzo38> The source code might consist of additional files than just the *.c files, such as *.h files, and sometimes other files which some of the C files are generated from
01:41:11 <kmc> sure
01:41:17 <kmc> 'tis just an example of the idea
01:41:38 <fizzie> `git archive HEAD | gzip -9 > source.tar.gz && ...`, under the assumption that your version control knows what's actually needed?
01:41:40 <HackEso> git: 'archive HEAD | gzip -9 > source.tar.gz && ...`, under the assumption that your version control knows what's actually needed? ' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
01:41:50 <fizzie> HackEso: I wasn't talking to you, really.
01:41:51 <kmc> that's good
01:41:57 <zzo38> Yes, OK.
01:42:34 <kmc> although it might also include some things like documentation or image files that are either shipped with the binary anyway, or are not needed to explain the binary's behavior
01:42:56 <zzo38> Is it possible with objcopy to give a name to the section added in this way?
01:42:59 <fizzie> `` git status # just curious
01:43:00 <HackEso> fatal: not a git repository (or any parent up to mount point /) \ Stopping at filesystem boundary (GIT_DISCOVERY_ACROSS_FILESYSTEM not set).
01:43:31 <fizzie> I think it is.
01:43:41 <zzo38> In the case of Fossil, you can use "fossil ls" for a list of the files in the repository.
01:44:26 <kmc> zzo38: yes, with --rename-section .data=whatever
01:45:01 <zzo38> fizzie: I thought HackEso uses Mercurial?
01:45:19 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK.
01:45:28 <kmc> but, regardless of section names, you also get symbols _binary_foo_start, _binary_foo_end, and _binary_foo_size, where foo is derived from the name of the input file
01:45:29 <fizzie> It does, there's just git installed on the system too.
01:47:11 <kmc> so you can do something like: extern const char _binary_source_start[]; extern size_t _binary_source_size; fwrite(_binary_source_start, _binary_source_size, 1, stdout);
01:48:20 * kmc ->
01:48:25 <zzo38> kmc: O, OK, that will work, then. However, then it will be loaded into RAM; you might not want to load it until it is used. Will it defer loading if you give the section a different name than ".data"?
01:49:08 <fizzie> There's apparently something like `--set-section-flags source=noload` you could probably use (together with the renaming).
01:54:35 * int-e learns about `pigz`
01:55:11 <int-e> "pigz does what gzip does, but spreads the work over multiple processors and cores when compressing."
01:55:30 <int-e> so a bit similar to pbzip2
01:56:01 <shachaf> man pigz
01:56:05 <shachaf> Oops.
01:56:09 <esowiki> [[User:Aldous zodiac]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81542&oldid=36516 * Aldous zodiac * (+13)
01:57:12 <esowiki> [[WARP]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=81543&oldid=68584 * Aldous zodiac * (+33)
01:57:25 <fizzie> I was going to be all "how's that even possible", but I guess it just splits to chunks, it's not like there'd be any infinitely long backreferences anyway?
01:57:52 <int-e> right, it splits into chunks
01:58:34 <shachaf> I embed binary assets into programs with ld like that.
01:58:50 <fizzie> "The input blocks, while compressed independently, have the last 32K of the previous block loaded as a preset dictionary to preserve the compression effectiveness of deflating in a single thread. This can be turned off using the -i or --independent option, so that the blocks can be decompressed independently for partial error recovery or for random access." Okay.
01:58:56 <int-e> "The input blocks, while compressed independently, have the last 32K of the previous block loaded as a preset dictionary..." oh. decompression isn't parallelized
01:58:59 <shachaf> cc -Wl,--format=binary -Wl,file -Wl,--format=default
01:59:13 <shachaf> You also want -Wl,-z,noexecstack if you do that, otherwise it makes the stack executable.
01:59:14 <int-e> fair enough
01:59:47 <fizzie> Fun fact: Go 1.16 added a built-in way for embedding binary assets.
01:59:58 <shachaf> But someone pointed out there's another trick: .incbin directives in assembly.
02:00:09 <shachaf> I made a note to investigate it because I think it seemed a bit nicer or something.
02:00:40 <fizzie> (You can embed a single file as a []byte, or as a string, or a bunch of files as an object that implements an interface that you can ask to open individual files from.)
02:00:56 <zzo38> Something I wanted is a preprocessor command in C to include arbitrary files as data; I read that it has been made a proposal, using a #embed command. (I don't know if any compiler supports this yet)
02:01:21 <fizzie> https://golang.org/pkg/embed/ -- the "special comments" syntax is a little weird, but I appreciate not having to pick between the three dozen aftermarket data-embedding packages.
02:01:35 <fizzie> Yeah, there's a C23 proposal for #embed.
02:02:07 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2592.htm
02:04:30 <int-e> Ye/Nay/Abstain... wait, were there 4 or 3 abstentions?
02:05:28 <fizzie> 3, apparently.
02:05:37 <fizzie> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2516.pdf page 23 or so.
02:08:54 <fizzie> And while we're at it, http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/n2628.htm has more discussion and another poll: "Do we want to allow #embed to appear in any context that is different from an initialization of a character array?" => 5-8-6 "leaning in the direction of no but not clear"
02:12:23 <fizzie> There's also a defer proposal for C23. And a quadruple-stack paper introducing type inference (`auto`) and lambdas. I don't follow things closely enough to guess how likely they're to make it.
02:14:41 <int-e> surely the first one will be deferred to a later version :P
02:15:54 <fizzie> The secure_clear / memset_explicit function seems to be likely to get into C23, FWIW.
02:17:52 <kmc> fizzie: yeah, iirc you can concatenate zlib streams to get a valid zlib stream
02:18:04 <kmc> re on-demand loading: isn't that basically accomplished by paging anyway
02:18:28 <kmc> .data isn't really copied into memory in full when your program starts, it's only mapped into memory and then copied on demand
02:18:47 <kmc> although with relocations and stuff there may be a lot of "demand" before the program even starts
02:18:55 <zzo38> I think that #embed should be allowed anywhere, but it should be optimized for the case of appearing inside of a character array.
02:25:15 <kmc> what would it mean elsewhere?
02:26:48 <zzo38> It would expand to a sequence of numbers (one for each byte in the input file) separated by commas.
02:27:30 <zzo38> Inside of the initialization of a char array though, this expansion should be bypassed and it should be optimized.
02:27:53 <zzo38> (An alternative would be for it to be expanded as a string literal.)
02:31:10 <kmc> I see
02:33:17 <zzo38> (At least, it is my opinion.)
02:59:40 <zzo38> (This way, it can work even if the preprocessor is used alone.)
03:20:26 <kmc> zzo38: yes, I suppose it could be a useful feature for other languages, not just C
03:20:39 <kmc> I was looking into using CPP with OpenSCAD the other day, although I forgot why
03:21:18 <kmc> I already wrote my own custom preprocessor for OpenSCAD too, but that is for a specific purpose and not general
03:21:26 <zzo38> As long as the tokenizing is similar, the C proprocessor could be used.
03:21:42 <kmc> yeah, it's very similar to C on a lexical level
03:22:34 <kmc> https://www.openscad.org/cheatsheet/
03:22:49 <kmc> maybe the only weird lexical thing are the "modifier characters" which you can prefix to any tree node
03:23:19 <kmc> also I guess variables starting with $ are not in C
03:23:32 <kmc> and there's 'include' and 'use', both of which use <...> as pathname delimeters
03:23:39 <kmc> why, I have no idea, probably just to make it look like C
03:27:58 <kmc> part of me feels that something like OpenSCAD should really be an embedded DSL in a general-purpose lang (and indeed there are embeddings for Python and Haskell and probably others)
03:28:11 <kmc> but it's also kind of nifty for it to be its own thing
03:30:52 <fizzie> Variables with a $ in them are a "common extension" in C, I imagine they work pretty widely in preprocessors too.
03:30:57 <fizzie> (C11 J.5.2p1: "Characters other than the underscore _, letters, and digits, that are not part of the basic source character set (such as the dollar sign `$`, or characters in national character sets) may appear in an identifier.")
03:34:04 <fizzie> Fun thing about C and identifiers: almost all universal character names are legal in identifiers (it's not by Unicode class or anything, it's by including vast ranges of characters), and GCC error messages translate them into UTF-8 when output. Hence things like...
03:34:08 <fizzie> `` echo 'void func(void) {} int main(void) { \ufefffunc(); }' | gcc -x c - -o /dev/null -c
03:34:09 <HackEso> ​<stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:1:37: warning: implicit declaration of function ‘func’; did you mean ‘func’? [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
03:35:07 <fizzie> (U+FE47 .. U+FFFD inclusive are for example all legal.)
03:35:58 <fizzie> (As well as U+3040 .. U+D7FF inclusive.)
03:38:09 <zzo38> It seems like it should allow them, if it allows non-ASCII characters at all, then any bytes with the high bit set should be allowed, whether they are valid UTF-8 or not. If it allows escapes like that, then \ufeff should just be converted as UTF-8 and compiled as such, presumably (except I think Windows uses UTF-16, so then it on Windows it would use UTF-16 instead)
03:39:45 <zzo38> kmc: It look like the "include" command in OpenSCAD is using <...>; if you are using the C preprocessor then presumably you will not need the OpenSCAD include command since you can use the C include command instead. But, OpenSCAD uses # as a operator, which might conflict with the C preprocessor. Other than that, it look like it could be used with the C preprocessor.
03:42:22 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, an embedded DSL in something else would be another way; looking at it, I think perhaps as an extension to PostScript
03:42:53 <zzo38> (which already has many of these things, but not 3D nor animations)
03:44:09 <kmc> yeah
03:44:20 <kmc> 3D PostScript would be interesting
03:47:50 <zzo38> (Actually, 3D and animations are a few of the features I wanted in the next version of PostScript. Although, I don't expect they are going to make