←2021-01 2021-02 2021-03→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-02-01
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00:25:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Openbyte * New user account
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00:34:59 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80477&oldid=80463 * Openbyte * (+150)
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00:35:14 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80478&oldid=74928 * Openbyte * (+64) Added rust implementation link
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02:16:03 <fizzie> fungot: You feeling okay?
02:16:03 <fungot> fizzie: oh, i changed 1 to 2, which is the problem? there we go.
02:16:54 <fizzie> Impressive, didn't even lose the TCP connection.
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02:21:34 <esowiki> [[User:FreakCdev]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80479 * FreakCdev * (+279) Created page with "I'm the guy who is obsessed with programming languages, particularly esoteric ones. I have also created many programming languages like FreakC, Jellyscript, VNC and wrote an i..."
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07:32:20 <nakilon> fungot are you binary or ternary?
07:32:20 <fungot> nakilon: are you going to shoot me?" and get the primary key depending on that behaviour. in all other eu countries they are.
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07:54:44 <nakilon> fungot, @
07:54:44 <fungot> nakilon: right, but that's another flamewar!) capture him and get him to understand!
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08:46:46 <shachaf> "If close() is interrupted by a signal that is to be caught, it shall return -1 with errno set to EINTR and the state of fildes is unspecified."
08:46:49 <shachaf> thosix
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09:56:15 <int-e> `? password
09:56:18 <HackEso> The password of the month is eerily topical
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11:05:14 <esowiki> [[User:Graue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80480&oldid=36063 * Graue * (+37) updates
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11:07:15 <esowiki> [[Sortle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80481&oldid=53715 * Graue * (+78) /* External resources */ add interpreter with debugger
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12:27:24 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80482 * ReplayShells * (+386) Created page with "A Mirror-machine is an extremely simple program type invented by [[User:ReplayShells]] to check decision, addition, subtraction, loops, input and outputs. Rules: *Input vars..."
12:27:58 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80483&oldid=80482 * ReplayShells * (+0)
12:29:01 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80484&oldid=80467 * ReplayShells * (+57)
12:29:27 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80485&oldid=80483 * ReplayShells * (+2)
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13:29:39 <int-e> tromp: You might enjoy this month's Ponder This... it's not just stupid brute force this time.
13:31:47 <int-e> the '*' part feels uninspired though
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13:45:14 <int-e> helloerjan!
13:45:19 <oerjan> hello!
13:45:34 <int-e> it's been a while
13:45:53 <oerjan> i've been taking an internet white year :P
13:46:28 <oerjan> surprisingly, my freenode account seems to still be here.
13:46:56 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't notice you were missing, but then I haven't been here much myself
13:47:29 <oerjan> shachaf: yo! i just saw your email
13:48:43 <int-e> 'Nicknames and accounts which are expired will not automatically be dropped. Please contact network staff if you would like to take over an expired nickname.'
13:48:55 <oerjan> i know, in principle.
13:49:10 <int-e> So nobody wanted that nick and also knew the policy :)
13:49:30 <oerjan> right.
13:50:08 <int-e> I didn't know... or maybe I did and forgot.
13:53:07 <int-e> oh well, the timing was eery, what with covid going around
13:53:13 <int-e> glad you're fine
13:53:52 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is in order again.
13:53:57 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is in order again.
13:54:27 <oerjan> i think covid was part of it - too much depressing news around.
13:56:20 <oerjan> `dowg password
13:56:22 <HackEso> 12361:2021-02-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is in order again. \ 12360:2021-01-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is eerily topical \ 12355:2020-12-01 <b_jonäs> learn The password of the month is wake these token brings \ 12348:2020-11-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is Florida Recount 2.0 \ 12344:2020-10-01 <wib_jonäs> learn The password of the month is Algol Waterloo Athens aftermath quadrant hydrau
13:56:48 <oerjan> i see you've been keeping up.
13:57:29 <ais523> I have no ida how common Ørjan is as a name
13:57:34 <ais523> * no idea
13:58:56 <oerjan> <int-e> where's oerjan when you need somebody to discuss the latest TWIST in GG... <-- months away. i may have some catchup to do. and check if the twist i _was_ expecting actually happened.
13:59:29 <int-e> I forgot what that was about
14:00:00 <oerjan> ais523: i think when i checked it was the 50th most common first name for males in norway
14:00:12 <oerjan> my surname is 2nd, though.
14:01:32 <ais523> yes, but your surname isn't part of your IRC nick
14:01:40 <ais523> was wondering about the chances of people trying to steal your nick from you
14:04:15 <oerjan> when i first arrived here, it was actually taken (but expiring)
14:04:32 <oerjan> the "oe" probably helps too.
14:04:52 <ais523> is ø legal in IRC nicks?
14:05:00 <fizzie> o!
14:05:41 <oerjan> not in the basic version, although the legality of "|" is a legacy from when that _was_ used for ø in some charsets, iirc
14:06:03 <oerjan> (or ö, since irc is originally finnish)
14:06:18 <fizzie> That'd be the ISO 646-FI character set.
14:06:23 <ais523> ø and ö are notably different letters, though
14:06:40 <ais523> fizzie: oh wow, ISO 646
14:06:48 <Taneb> Famously so, I would say
14:06:55 <ais523> I thnk ISO 8859 has pretty much entirely replaced that, and both are nowadays obsolete
14:06:58 <fizzie> Yeah, but I'm sure there's some Norwegian-specific variant that has ø in there.
14:07:18 <ais523> ISO 646 is the reason C has trigraphs, I think
14:07:37 <ais523> if you don't have a | because your charset has a ö instead, you can write it as ??! instead
14:07:52 <ais523> that said, ö for OR isn't that hard to remember
14:08:03 <fizzie> ISO 646-FI indeed has [\]^ and {|}~ as the uppercase/lowercase variants of äöåü.
14:08:14 <ais523> german ö and English "or" have similar (but not identical) pronunciations
14:09:15 <int-e> that reminds me of my failure to learn the pronunciation of de Bruijn...
14:09:23 <fizzie> Not exactly sure why ü is on that list, since it's not really part of the Finnish alphabet. Wouldn't think it's the most common non-native letter or anything.
14:09:41 <int-e> ...my conclusion was that there's something in it that my ears aren't trained to hear
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14:10:00 <ais523> fizzie: maybe it's so the same character set can be used for both Finnish and some other language
14:10:06 <int-e> ais523: (they're not at all similar... to my german ear)
14:10:08 <ais523> German has äöü but also ß
14:10:27 <ais523> int-e: well ö is closer to "or" than o is
14:10:56 <ais523> but ö is more like "er" than "or", and still not that close
14:11:15 <int-e> ah is closer to eh than uh is... I suppose
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14:11:38 <fizzie> I think the German variant of ISO 646 omits the å to make room for ß.
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14:13:11 <int-e> oerjan: Oh I do remember. I wanted someone who knows the ins and outs of the Blitzengard family, at the time.
14:13:47 <int-e> (remember = I looked up the date in the logs and checked which comic I referred to)
14:14:01 <fizzie> It wasn't *that* uncommon to still see Usenet posts and emails and suchlike to get their äs and ös replaced with {s and |s when I was in university. And perhaps even more common to see them get replaced by d and v (which is what you get if you do 8-bit ISO-8859-1 but drop the 8th bit).
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14:22:37 <tromp> int-e: thx for suggestion
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16:49:21 <esowiki> [[CopyPasta Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80486&oldid=71469 * Rerednaw * (-9)
16:49:49 <NotApplicable> somebody made a copypasta language?
16:49:52 <NotApplicable> haha
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18:54:15 <shachaf> oerjan: helloerjan
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19:06:03 <shachaf> `ølist
19:06:06 <HackEso> ​ølist? No such file or directory
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19:10:54 <zzo38> But now, you can add headers into messages to indicate the charater set to use. Glk uses ISO-8859-1, but also supports UTF-32.
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19:27:59 <b_jonas> hello oerjan
19:32:56 <b_jonas> "<ais523> that said, ö for OR isn't that hard to remember" => sure, it's indexing your arrays like vÄlÅ where it gets ugly. it worked better on BASIC microcomputers because BASIC doesn't use brackets or braces for anything, though those computers sometimes used different character sets than ISO-646.
19:36:07 <b_jonas> but even the different character sets used the obvious idea of replacing the brackets and other characters that are not used in BASIC
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19:48:34 <fizzie> printf("Hello, world!Ön");
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19:49:56 <world> Hi
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19:50:28 <shachaf> C implementations that use Unicode should support this. They already support digraphs and trigraphs, so why not monographs?
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20:41:29 <esowiki> [[Powerlist]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80487&oldid=39461 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Truth machine */ Cat
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20:46:47 <kmc> which ASCII characters have their bit pattern dictated by external concerns? there's NUL (usable to reserve space, can be punched to any character), DEL (any character can be punched to it), and SYN (distinct from any bitwise rotation of itself, usable to maintain framing on synchronous links)
20:46:52 <kmc> any others?
20:49:56 <zzo38> I don't know; that is just what I have known of, what you mentioned too
20:59:57 <b_jonas> kmc: well it's certainly convenient to have the digits 0123456789 encoded as consecutive bytes, makes it easier to parse or format numbers. the same is true for ABCDEF .
21:01:44 <b_jonas> I'll also note that EBCDIC encoding letters in traditional alphabetic order was the one and only chance to get rid of the traditional phoenician-derived order of the letters in the alphabet and invent an entirely new order
21:02:22 <b_jonas> but it might have been too late, by that time alphabetized dictionaries compiled by hand may have been too well spread for technology to be able to overthrow that order
21:03:34 <b_jonas> I'm also hoping we could get rid of the traditional Hungarian alphabetization order that makes everyone's work harder in the uncommon cases
21:06:36 <b_jonas> Nobody other than the very few people whose name starts with Cu or Cz or Zu would notice if we silently got rid of the rule that the nine special letters (sz, gy, ny, cs, zs, ly, ty, dzs, dz; but never ch or th or cz) and their doubled versions are sorted differently when they're used for the sound they usually denote than when they're accidents.
21:07:07 <b_jonas> That's a rule that very hard to strictly follow by a computer, and it gains you nothing.
21:07:34 <b_jonas> It's just the sort of nonsense that you teach to kids so they have to suffer just as you suffered in school
21:08:05 <b_jonas> You should teach it only in high school as a curiosity in case they want to look up words in older dictionaries.
21:09:17 <kmc> yeah
21:10:33 <kmc> those sorts of rules are annoying for sure
21:10:41 <b_jonas> I mean treating sz, gy, ny, cs in *Scrabble* kind of make sense, but not for alphabetization
21:11:03 <b_jonas> but the Scrabble rules can be decided freely independent of the alphabetization
21:12:37 <kmc> Spanish used to collate "ch" and "ll" separately from "c" and "l" but they got rid of that in 1994, though they were still considered distinct letters until 2010 (per wikipedia)
21:14:38 <kmc> b_jonas: EBCDIC has the letters in traditional alphabetic order, but not contiguous
21:15:30 <kmc> they're hex 81-89, 91-99, A2-A9
21:15:46 <b_jonas> kmc: sure, but the not contiguous doesn't matter for alphabetization
21:15:48 <kmc> I forgot why this is, but it probably relates to its history as an extension of BCD (numerals are F0-F9)
21:16:46 <b_jonas> kmc: it relates to the Hollerith punch card encoding
21:17:23 <kmc> and in ASCII they're 30-39
21:17:53 <kmc> so that counts as an external concern: the low 4 bits of an ASCII numeral give you its binary/BCD representation
21:18:13 <kmc> whereas just having them contiguous in an arbitary place wouldn't
21:18:18 <fizzie> Does the single bit uppercase/lowercase thing count as well?
21:18:49 <kmc> are there any interesting relationships between ASCII and Baudot/ITA2?
21:23:12 <kmc> also I learned (although I may have already learned, and forgotten) about the use of ASCII character ENQ
21:23:15 <kmc> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enquiry_character
21:23:57 <kmc> when sent to a Telex machine it would automatically reply with an identification string encoded on a rotating drum
21:24:26 <kmc> useful when leaving messages at an unattended machine. you could check that you reached the right recipient, and also check that the connection was not dropped by sending it again at the end
21:25:10 <kmc> such a character also exists in ITA2, called WRU for "Who aRe yoU?"
21:30:44 <b_jonas> "interesting relationships between ASCII and Baudot/ITA2" => I don't think so, apart from stuff that both ASCII and Baudot wants independently, like how space, which is one of the most common characters, has just one hole
21:32:24 <kmc> I wonder if WRU is ever used in amateur RTTY
21:34:14 <kmc> b_jonas: do you think there's a better ordering for the latin alphabet than the phoenecian-derived one? what would you prefer?
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21:53:17 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80488&oldid=80399 * Not applicable * (+791) almost there...
21:53:29 <NotApplicable> oh
21:53:47 <NotApplicable> lol
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22:41:45 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm not sure. the difficulty is that the latin alphabet is used for a lot of very different languages and they use many letters in very different ways.
22:43:38 <b_jonas> but you might want something with vowels first or last, consonants in two series that are voiced then unvoinced, pairs in the same order, something like AIUOEYBDGVZJMNLRPTKFSCH
22:45:48 <fizzie> ETAOIN SHRDLU
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22:46:20 <b_jonas> also there's sort of a coordination problem, because you'd have to get all languages to use a similar order, just like how now basically all languages that use latin letters use the same order, except maybe for a few letters, and even all languages that use cyrillic scripts (sometimes very differently) use one consistent order, and that's not even considering greek/hebrew/arabic gemmatria
22:48:18 <b_jonas> oh, and braille latin letters have a mnemonic that only works with the current alphabetic order: ABCDEFGHIJ is represented the same as 1234567890, add a lower dot and it's KLMNOPQRST, add two lower dots and it's UVXYZ
22:49:52 <b_jonas> and the braille alphabet is quite old, it might actually have already been clearly established by the time the Hollerith and EBCDIC encodings were decided on
22:49:57 <b_jonas> so it might have been too late because of that
22:50:06 <b_jonas> I don't know the history of Braille, so I can't tell really
22:53:05 <kmc> fizzie: that's the keyboard layout used for hot metal typesetting!
22:53:09 <kmc> which I was also reading about last night
22:53:21 <zzo38> Many other things also work with the existing alphabetical order, including ASCII, punch cards, telephone numbers, etc.
22:53:27 <kmc> (I went from video terminals -> teletypes -> punched tape -> hot metal typesetting, kind of a backwards in time thing)
22:55:20 <NotApplicable> it's evolving, but backwards
22:56:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's how this started. "<b_jonas> I'll also note that EBCDIC encoding letters in traditional alphabetic order was the one and only chance to get rid of the traditional phoenician-derived order of the letters in the alphabet and invent an entirely new order"
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23:03:26 <zzo38> Were alphabetic orders made up by numerology? I know there are many different kinds of alphabets with different orders, and at least some of them are based on numerology.
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23:34:02 <kmc> zzo38: which ones are those?
23:34:57 <kmc> I have a friend whose four year old son is really into different alphabets
23:35:05 <kmc> I told her she should try to teach him Hangul
23:35:33 <kmc> it's the best
23:37:24 <zzo38> I do not remember, but I think I read that somewhere.
2021-02-02
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01:34:07 <NotApplicable> hi tr0mp
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01:39:00 <NotApplicable> bye tromp
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02:07:48 <kmc> also I was reading about formats for representing binary data on 7-bit paper tape, for EPROM programmers and such
02:07:51 <kmc> > In BNPF encoding, a single byte (8 bits) would be represented by a highly redundant character framing sequence starting with a single ASCII "B", eight ASCII characters where a "0" would be represented by a "N" and a "1" would be represented by a "P", followed by an ending ASCII "F". These ten-character ASCII sequences were separated by one or more whitespace characters, therefore using at least eleven
02:07:53 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:17: error: <hint>:1:17: error: parse error on input ‘,’
02:07:57 <kmc> ASCII characters for each byte stored (9% efficiency). The ASCII "N" and "P" characters differ in four bit positions, providing excellent protection from single punch errors.
02:08:00 <kmc> it's kind of shocking that people put up with such inefficiency
02:08:41 <kmc> but I guess paper is cheap, and the error detection is important (mis-punches being relatively common) and a simple sparse encoding is much simpler to implement than a CRC or whatever
02:08:52 <NotApplicable> you know, you could just store everything with whatever that 5 bit system used
02:09:21 <kmc> and yeah, it would be compatible with Baudot/ITA2 so you could even send ROM images over Telex, although I'm not sure if this was commonly done
02:09:28 <kmc> plus such systems eventually moved to ASCII anyway
02:09:51 <kmc> and the BNPF encodings were replaced by denser ones like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_HEX
02:10:04 <kmc> which is still commonly encountered today
02:11:35 <kmc> `` objcopy -O ihex /bin/ls /dev/stdout
02:12:07 <HackEso> ​:1002A8002F6C696236342F6C642D6C696E75782DED. \ :0C02B8007838362D36342E736F2E32004D. \ :1002C400040000001000000001000000474E55002B. \ :1002D4000000000003000000020000000000000015. \ :1002E400040000001400000003000000474E550005. \ :1002F400A65F86CD6394E8F583C14D786D13B3BCD6. \ :04030400BE051B8790. \ :10030800110000006F00000002000000070000005C. \ :10031800A6A148041201AE3E28DC11132800009063. \ :100328006F00000000000000700000007100000075. \ :10033
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02:33:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:GeorgeEpicGen]]": Author request: user requesting deletion of their own userpage
02:56:59 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tomhe * New user account
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03:18:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80489&oldid=80477 * Tomhe * (+271) /* Introductions */ it's me ..tom(ario)
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03:29:34 <esowiki> [[User:Tomhe]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80490 * Tomhe * (+258) About me, init
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05:16:26 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80491&oldid=70453 * Quintopia * (+292) finish FSAness proof
05:16:42 <nakilon> `` ls -l
05:16:44 <HackEso> total 260 \ drwxr-xr-x 7 1000 1000 4096 Dec 31 2019 asmbf-1.2.7 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 103 Nov 12 2019 banana.txt \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 1000 1000 17296 Nov 18 2019 bfi \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 3315 Aug 9 00:39 compiled_brachylog.pl \ drwxr-xr-x 10 1000 1000 4096 Feb 20 2020 egel-master \ drwxr-xr-x 3 1000 1000 4096 Feb 21 2020 egel-scripts \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 145944 Feb 20 2020 egel.zip \ -rw-r--r-- 1 1000 1000 3399
05:16:47 <nakilon> yay
05:17:37 <nakilon> `` head banana.txt
05:17:38 <HackEso> Bananas taste good and have potassium, but they bruise kinda easily. I still like to eat them though :)
05:18:43 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80492&oldid=80491 * Quintopia * (-292) Undo revision 80491 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]])
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06:22:38 <zzo38> How to properly clean the computer keyboard?
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06:26:32 <nakilon> fungot tell him how to clean the keyboard
06:26:32 <fungot> nakilon: do the gnu servers also lag for regular accounts ( not only sparc)" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord
06:26:45 <nakilon> you'll need lisp I guess
06:27:31 <nakilon> kmc is that your bot? is it protected from fork bomb and stuff?
06:30:40 <kmc> it's not my bot. I forget who maintains it these days
06:31:51 <kmc> it uses User Mode Linux for sandboxing
06:32:32 <kmc> not sure what it has in the way of resource limits
06:32:38 <nakilon> I see, the user is 1000 )
06:34:00 <nakilon> `` mv banana.txt _banana.txt
06:34:01 <HackEso> No output.
06:34:05 <nakilon> `` head banana.txt
06:34:07 <HackEso> head: cannot open 'banana.txt' for reading: No such file or directory
06:34:17 <nakilon> lol, it's persistent
06:34:34 <nakilon> `` mv _banana.txt banana.txt
06:34:35 <HackEso> No output.
06:34:54 <nakilon> someone may steal his banana
06:35:12 <kmc> https://github.com/GregorR/umlbox
06:35:48 <nakilon> 8 years old stuff
06:37:11 <nakilon> `` lsb_release -a
06:37:13 <HackEso> No LSB modules are available. \ Distributor ID:Debian \ Description:Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) \ Release:10 \ Codename:buster
06:38:06 <nakilon> `` uname –r
06:38:08 <HackEso> uname: extra operand ‘–r’ \ Try 'uname --help' for more information.
06:38:17 <nakilon> nvm
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08:18:58 <esowiki> [[Mirror-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80493&oldid=80485 * ReplayShells * (+0)
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10:42:02 <esowiki> [[Unfair]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80494 * Gilbert189 * (+6323) Created page with "Unfair is an esolang, based on a game about counting numbers "unfairly". The esolang is made by [[User:Gilbert189]] (but not the game). ==How to play Unfair== A player has a c..."
10:49:42 <fizzie> nakilon: https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso
10:50:26 <nakilon> > HackEso is a reincarnation of a bot called HackEgo.
10:50:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:28: error: <hint>:1:28: error: parse error on input ‘of’
10:50:36 <nakilon> lambdabot shhh
10:51:15 <nakilon> I just wanted to say that with an ability to permanently move files in it it's probably gonna have to be reincarnated again some day )
10:52:11 <nakilon> ah ok, it says they cared about it
10:52:17 <nakilon> cool
10:52:44 <fizzie> The persisted files that matter are in a version control system. Since somewhat recently, the current directory's been made the non-VC'd persistent one, though, to reduce noisy commits a little.
10:55:33 <nakilon> can this bot install and run gems?
10:56:13 <nakilon> `` ruby -v
10:56:15 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ruby: command not found
11:00:40 <nakilon> `` curl https://api.my-ip.io/ip
11:00:42 <HackEso> Sorry, HackEgo's sandbox currently has no web access. However, see `? `fetch
11:00:54 <nakilon> `? `fetch
11:00:56 <HackEso> ​`fetch [<output-file>] <URL> downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEso. It is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit.
11:01:36 <nakilon> `? `edit
11:01:37 <HackEso> ​`edit <file> gives you a url, then in your browser: (1) Press Sync (unless making a new file) (2) Make your changes (3) Press Save (4) Paste the command line at the top into the channel.
11:02:43 <esowiki> [[Alphamation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80495 * ReplayShells * (+338) Created page with "'''Alphamation''' is joke language. ==Examples== ===[[Hello, World!]]=== <pre> + </pre> ===[[Cat]]=== <pre> - </pre> ===[[Reverse cat]]=== <pre> @- </pre> ==Implementations=..."
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11:04:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80496&oldid=80470 * Gilbert189 * (+13) /* U */
11:05:22 <esowiki> [[User:ReplayShells]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80497&oldid=80484 * ReplayShells * (+40)
11:09:08 <fizzie> (That reminds me that `edit is still broken w.r.t. character encoding, should look into that.)
11:26:20 <esowiki> [[Betamation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80498 * ReplayShells * (+248) Created page with "'''Betamation''' is joke language. ==Examples== ===Hello,world!=== <pre> SS3 </pre> ==Implementations== *[https://github.com/ReplayShells/Esolangs/blob/master/TF.cs TF source..."
12:00:23 <nakilon> fizzie I don't understand what's the Lonux distro is there
12:02:37 <nakilon> I want to precompile a binary for it
12:07:47 <nakilon> oh I see
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12:08:39 <nakilon> it's buster
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13:21:21 <nakilon> nevermind; the only way to compile RASEL as understand are either mruby or rubyc: mruby is less documented than how much I need to figure it out, rubyc compiles for half an hour and then says 2gb of ram isn't enough for that
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13:22:29 <NotApplicable> hi arseniiv
13:22:58 <arseniiv> hi?
13:23:07 <NotApplicable> how are you?
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13:24:09 <arseniiv> hm
13:25:06 <arseniiv> it’s strange when a person you don’t have a clue about asks how are you :)
13:25:16 <NotApplicable> haha yeah
13:25:48 <arseniiv> but I’m relatively fine
13:26:17 <NotApplicable> glad to hear that :)
13:26:27 <NotApplicable> im fine too
13:27:31 <NotApplicable> hi zseri
13:33:08 <zseri> hi
13:33:17 <NotApplicable> how are you
13:34:39 <nakilon> arseniiv how are you?
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13:34:59 <NotApplicable> hey MDude
13:35:40 <arseniiv> today is Whatareyouday it seems :)
13:36:07 <NotApplicable> lol
13:36:12 <arseniiv> Howareyouday*
13:36:26 <arseniiv> fungot how are you at last
13:36:26 <fungot> arseniiv: i'll keep that in mind. but the worst part being that it's not very hard
13:36:51 <arseniiv> I was afraid it’d be so
13:37:39 * nakilon is sad about not finding the way to execute RASEL in HackEso
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13:40:32 <NotApplicable> im trying to make a compiled lanuage
13:41:11 <NotApplicable> and youd think the hardest part would be making the translator stuff
13:41:21 <NotApplicable> and the optimization stuff
13:41:24 <NotApplicable> but no
13:41:55 <NotApplicable> the hardest part for me is making a parser
13:42:22 <NotApplicable> anybody have any suggestions on making a parser for a c-style language?
13:43:14 <arseniiv> do you use a parser framework? It can make things lot easier
13:43:31 <arseniiv> Jean-Michele is jarring
13:43:44 <NotApplicable> i havent tried that
13:44:20 <NotApplicable> but the problem is that i don't know enough of "big-boy" languages to make my own compiled lanuage
13:44:49 <NotApplicable> so im writing it in quickbasic, which I dont think has a prebuilt parser framework
13:45:09 <NotApplicable> well, not "prebuilt" but premade
13:45:25 <arseniiv> oh, that’s a language :)
13:45:43 <nakilon> look for such frameworks in other versions of BASIC
13:45:48 <arseniiv> I would think it would be harder, not easier, with quickbasic
13:46:00 <nakilon> maybe there is something for Visual Basic
13:46:10 <NotApplicable> im starting to figure that
13:46:17 <arseniiv> yep maybe freebasic has something, it should be more modern IIRC
13:46:57 <NotApplicable> i could try migrating it to #qb64, that's modern
13:47:13 <NotApplicable> slow tho
13:47:34 <NotApplicable> migration would be easy
13:47:52 <arseniiv> also you might consider compiling into another language like C, or using stuff like LLVM, so optimization and machine code are done for you by a thing which is proven to work decently
13:48:15 <NotApplicable> well it compiles directly to 6502 assembly
13:48:28 <arseniiv> so you’ll be left with sole semantics of your language
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13:49:50 <NotApplicable> i already have the compiler portion written for the most part
13:50:30 <NotApplicable> but i will look into that
13:50:38 <NotApplicable> thanks for the suggestion :)
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14:36:51 <NotApplicable> hi tromp
14:36:54 <NotApplicable> hi imode
14:37:02 <NotApplicable> hi mmmattyx
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14:44:54 <nakilon> fizzie what's the `fetch size limit?
14:45:32 <NotApplicable> for hackeso?
14:46:09 <nakilon> yeah
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14:47:08 <NotApplicable> IRC can only handle 510 character messages
14:49:14 <Taneb> `quote insanity
14:49:15 <HackEso> 392) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
14:49:23 <int-e> NotApplicable: not applicable
14:50:04 <int-e> (the `fetch command does http(s))
14:52:05 <int-e> nakilon: I suspect it doesn't impose a limit... but probably a timeout
14:52:16 <NotApplicable> ya?
14:52:17 <NotApplicable> what?
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14:53:52 <int-e> NotApplicable: I meant no offense.
14:54:43 <NotApplicable> im not offended
14:55:12 <NotApplicable> my internet went bye-bye
14:55:31 <int-e> ah, that was untimely
14:55:34 <int-e> :)
14:55:42 <NotApplicable> ya lol
14:57:57 <nakilon> int-e can't be, it's 1gbit storage
14:58:08 <nakilon> 24MB
14:58:34 <nakilon> I wonder what's the exact limit so I would know if I'm able to shrink the file enough
15:00:15 <int-e> oh hmm. https://github.com/fis/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch#L41
15:00:52 <NotApplicable> does hackeso have 7zip installed?
15:00:55 <NotApplicable> `7z
15:00:56 <HackEso> ​ \ 7-Zip [64] 16.02 : Copyright (c) 1999-2016 Igor Pavlov : 2016-05-21 \ p7zip Version 16.02 (locale=en_NZ.UTF-8,Utf16=on,HugeFiles=on,64 bits,1 CPU QEMU Virtual CPU version 2.1.3 (623),ASM) \ \ Usage: 7z <command> [<switches>...] <archive_name> [<file_names>...] \ [<@listfiles...>] \ \ <Commands> \ a : Add files to archive \ b : Benchmark \ d : Delete files from archive \ e : Extract files from archive (without using direc
15:00:59 <NotApplicable> yes
15:01:29 <nakilon> my file is already zipped
15:01:33 <NotApplicable> so you could try putting it in a 7zip file (or .tar.gz if needed) and then `fetch` it
15:01:41 <nakilon> I can split it in chunks though ..D
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15:39:16 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Were alphabetic orders made up by numerology?" => I don't really know. I suspect that the order came first and the numeric values got assigned a bit later, which is why rho, sigma, tau have lower numeric values than the corresponding letters have in hebrew and arabic gemmatria. but that's just my guess, I don't know the history.
15:45:21 <b_jonas> kmc: the greek, hebrew, and arabic alphabets have traditional numeric values assigned to the letters. in addition, Braille only has 64 possible character cells, so the digits 1234567890 are represented by the same as the letters ABCDEFGHIJ, typically with a numeric prefix before an entire number (which may have more than one digit).
15:50:27 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> How to properly clean the computer keyboard?" => depends on whether it's a mechanical keyboard or not. mechanical keyboards have removable keys but the base is sensitive to water. pop off all the keycaps, clean the keycaps wet (eg. with detergent and sponge) and dry them completely before reattaching (this is fiddly, the water likes to stay in their concave parts, so you may need to
15:50:33 <b_jonas> individually remove water droplets with a paper towel from crevices after drying most of it in just air). dust the rest of the keyboard carefully, ideally dry (I guess you could try isopropil-alcohol solution for worse stains, but have it dry for a long enough time before you connect power).
15:53:55 <b_jonas> for non-mechanical keyboards, the keycaps typically aren't reattachable (though I think there are non-mechanical keyboards where they are), but they tolerate water somewhat more. for these, get some of the crumbs out by holding the keyboard on each side and hitting it on your palm (this is fast but doesn't get everything out); then remove the dust and crumbs by poking between the keys with whatever you
15:54:01 <b_jonas> like, I've used cut parts of plastic sheets, bent paperclips, stick notes, my father uses a brush; clean the keycaps and exposed plastic surfaces with commercial keyboard cleaning foam and paper towels.
15:54:19 <b_jonas> in any case, cleaning a keyboard can be fiddly and take a lot of time.
15:56:46 <b_jonas> "<NotApplicable> anybody have any suggestions on making a parser for a c-style language?" => if you have freedom to choose the syntax that you parse, then make it simple and unambiguous, without the stupid complications that most languages have, even when this comes at expense of slightly more verbose syntax. you'll thank yourself when you write the parser. but sometimes you want to parse an existing
15:56:52 <b_jonas> language, which can sometimes suck.
15:58:23 <NotApplicable> b_jonas: ya i made everything simple like `if(?condition, { do this; });
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15:58:38 <b_jonas> "<NotApplicable> so im writing it in quickbasic, which I dont think has a prebuilt parser framework" => you can probably port a yacc even to quickbasic. I recommend ais523's ayacc for this.
15:58:39 <NotApplicable> and any whitespace is ignored
15:59:53 <b_jonas> note that there are two unrelated yacc versions called ayacc: I mean ais523's, which you can get from ( darcs pull "http://nethack4.org/projects/ayacc" )
16:00:59 <b_jonas> but you can also hand-roll a parser if you prefer
16:01:59 <nakilon> actually I'll postpone the fetch because seems like jruby wrongly interpretes rasel.rb
16:02:19 <b_jonas> that said, I can only help with the parser, I have no idea how to write a usable native code generator for a compiler. I should probably try to write one once, just as a learning experience, but I haven't written one yet. I only wrote interpreters.
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16:20:15 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80499&oldid=80396 * Tetrapyronia * (+541) Added Unfair
16:20:50 <esowiki> [[User:Tetrapyronia]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80500&oldid=80397 * Tetrapyronia * (+13)
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16:24:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tsukibadcoder * New user account
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17:38:59 <fizzie> nakilon: int-e: 10MiB.
17:39:11 <fizzie> (Imposed via setrlimit.)
17:50:33 <int-e> fizzie: so the github repo is current enough :)
17:52:12 <fizzie> It's not like there's any, you know, development, going on.
17:53:07 <int-e> sure. hackeso is perfection :P
17:54:09 <int-e> close enough really-we hardly ever complain about it
17:55:57 <kmc> `` uname -a
17:55:58 <HackEso> Linux (none) 4.9.82 #6 Sat Apr 7 13:45:01 BST 2018 x86_64 GNU/Linux
17:58:30 <fizzie> I had a lot of trouble with the UML build at one point when trying to upgrade, I feel like it's a bit of a niche thing.
17:59:04 <fizzie> (But it did eventually get better.)
18:01:38 <kmc> yeah, I think UML is pretty niche these days
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19:18:51 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80501&oldid=80488 * Not applicable * (-116)
19:19:03 <NotApplicable> oh
19:19:07 <NotApplicable> heh
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20:21:00 <esowiki> [[Naz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80502&oldid=80492 * Quintopia * (+1113) BSM proof
20:21:29 <esowiki> [[Naz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80503&oldid=80502 * Quintopia * (+0) typo
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21:30:29 <uignrsglks> When creating an account on the wiki with a lowercase username, I get the message "Your username will be adjusted to "[capitalized username]" due to technical restrictions." Is this a new restriction?
21:32:17 <zzo38> That is a feature of MediaWiki; the first character must be uppercase.
21:33:15 <uignrsglks> I see, thanks.
21:35:17 <uignrsglks> Is there a way to see only user messages in the logs (e.g. https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-01.html), i.e. filter out join/quit/esowiki messages?
21:35:30 <uignrsglks> It's a bit hard to read with all of those.
21:36:56 <zzo38> Messages matching the regular expression /:HackEgo![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[wiki\]/i are the wiki messages, and JOIN and QUIT messages lack PRIVMSG. If you access the raw logs then you can use grep to filter out the lines that you don't want.
21:38:11 <zzo38> (At least, it is what I do; there may be other better ways.)
21:38:57 <uignrsglks> Thanks, I'll try that. Do you use curl/wget and output to a file on your computer or something like that?
21:41:38 <uignrsglks> Also, is there an advantage to processing the raw files rather than the text files?
21:42:08 <zzo38> I do use curl, yes.
21:42:09 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80504&oldid=80501 * Not applicable * (+368)
21:44:18 <zzo38> I don't know if there is an advantage to processing the raw files rather than the text files, but it is what I have used.
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22:08:04 <esowiki> [[C Plus Minus Plus Minus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80505 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+1729) Created page with "== C == An esoteric language created by [[User:SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont]] that has only 1 operation: NAND == Syntax == The program is divided into "functions" t..."
22:09:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80506&oldid=80496 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+30) /* C */ C
22:11:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80507&oldid=80506 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+6) /* C */ Change display text of C link
22:33:49 <uignrsglks> Test
22:33:49 <uignrsglks> Test2
22:34:01 <fizzie> There's no customization support in the formatting of the HTML versions, though we *could* easily add a class to the div so that your user stylesheets could more easily tweak the presentation.
22:34:24 <uignrsglks> fizzie That would be nice!
22:34:41 <uignrsglks> I think it would help people follow conversations in the logs more easily.
22:34:58 <fizzie> I imagine with a sufficiently clever selector, you could already hide all lines that contain a <span class="x"> in them, which is what those -!- lines use.
22:36:30 <uignrsglks> Maybe adding a checkbox for "show server messages" and one for "show esowiki messages", or something like that.
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22:39:43 <fizzie> I think I'd likely just do it as URL parameters to start with. But don't hold your breath, and if you really want to see it happen, consider adding it to https://github.com/fis/esolangs/issues as a feature request so that it's written down somewhere.
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22:59:33 <uignrsglks> fizzie In the meantime, I wrote my own little reader :)
22:59:36 <uignrsglks> https://pastebin.com/MBJixDmC
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23:04:11 <fizzie> Fair enough. Just for the record, all three formats (HTML, plain text, "raw") are actually rendered on the fly from the *real* even-raw-er (or, depending on your point of view, more cooked) files, which I thought about also having an endpoint for, but didn't.
23:07:15 <uignrsglks> I see. What does the raw-er file look like?
23:09:24 <oerjan> <int-e> oerjan: Oh I do remember. I wanted someone who knows the ins and outs of the Blitzengard family, at the time. <-- i'm binging. was it related to the muse disputing martellus' claim as storm king?
23:09:51 <oerjan> what i remember is tarvek mentioning being heir through his _mother_.
23:10:45 <oerjan> but i sort of presume martellus is related through his _father_, because grandma is referred to once as "sturmvoraus", tarvek's surname.
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23:25:00 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80508&oldid=80476 * Digital Hunter * (+92) /* Infinite loop */
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23:42:27 <arseniiv> I generated some fake Russian words (orthography-wise). I was going to experiment with temperature in Markov chains but for now that was just a plain one, using 4-letter and 3-letter contexts. My idea is to make distributions for n-letter contexts AXYZ, BXYZ, CXYZ, … more uniform based on a distribution for a context XYZ
23:44:46 <arseniiv> hm it’s not wholly a temperature, it seems like some co-temperature in a way. Real temperature, if I get it right, should just uniformize a distribution independently for every context, making frequencies of the output letters more uniform, not making context-dependence more uniform
23:50:01 <arseniiv> in a way, with my idea one should get fractional context length. For example if we re-weight distribution this way:
23:50:01 <arseniiv> P(cXYZ|W) := α P(cXYZ|W) + (1 − α) P(XYZ|W),
23:50:01 <arseniiv> then instead of 4-letter contexts (AXYZ, …) we get (3 + α)-letter contexts! Or at least for α ∈ {0, 1} that’s genuinely so, and we have a right to think this to behave linearly
23:50:30 <arseniiv> damn, I wrote all probabilities the wrong way
23:50:54 <arseniiv> that should be P(W|cXYZ) := α P(W|cXYZ) + (1 − α) P(W|XYZ)
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23:56:53 <arseniiv> though I shouldn’t be so happy with it: in general, there is an α for each context length but 0, and how all of these α’s should relate to this hypothetical fractional context length isn’t obvious to me
23:57:54 <arseniiv> so, for the traditional inquiry — do you like this?
23:58:06 <arseniiv> `? this
23:58:08 <HackEso> This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. Nobody likes this.
23:59:03 <arseniiv> ah, I forgot to share those fake words
2021-02-03
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00:04:29 <arseniiv> frankly I find interesting three words which sound a bit Polish to my ear: желоведейства, дружинскороже and поднаже (I used a list of words in various grammatical forms, as opposed to lexemes, so the letter distribution would be more live)
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00:06:16 <arseniiv> also a curious word is произведь. It alludes to произведение “product, production” and something like исповедь “confession” or медведь “bear” (noun)
00:06:54 <arseniiv> can’t place my bet what one could use this portmanteau for
00:09:19 <arseniiv> (it might also allude to произвол “arbitrariness, arbitrary decisions (with your disapproval of them)”)
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00:15:59 <kmc> preved medved
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00:21:24 <uignrsglks> arseniiv You might want to look into context tree weighting.
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00:32:10 <arseniiv> @tell uignrsglks thanks, interesting!
00:32:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:37:23 <esowiki> [[C Plus Minus Plus Minus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80509&oldid=80505 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Implementations */ Cats
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07:00:52 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80510&oldid=80461 * Nakilon * (+2) /* Factorial */ forgot to about the latest conditional trampoline change
07:01:13 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80511&oldid=80510 * Nakilon * (+0) /* Nth Fibonacci number */ forgot to about the latest conditional trampoline change
07:07:17 <nakilon> damn I copypasted a typo between two edit messages
07:07:33 <nakilon> forgot to about *facepalm*
07:15:03 <nakilon> oh cmon
07:15:06 <nakilon> 10:14:44 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: 53 File size limit exceededcat xaa xab xac > rasel.jar
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07:48:07 <esowiki> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80512&oldid=80511 * TaterTomorrow * (+0) Minor spelling and grammar fixes.
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10:01:31 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80513&oldid=79325 * Abyxlrz * (-219)
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10:19:44 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80514&oldid=80267 * Gilbert189 * (+13)
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11:24:03 <fizzie> Yeah, that limit's a little draconian. But you've got to draw a line somewhere, and the bot's really not that convenient for "big things".
11:26:04 <fizzie> For "normal software", I can always install things with apt into the host container, where it gets its userland from. Not sure about Ruby gems; since there's no Internet access from the UML sandbox, you'd at least have to install them in an offline fashion. And $HOME is a non-persistent directory.
11:28:38 <nakilon> yeah, I could not easily find anything about providing ruby as a stand-alone folder so that's why I'm wrapping it in .jar and deleted files from it one by one to reduce size from 25.8 to 14.0 MB
11:29:22 <nakilon> but it does not look like it's possible to achieve 10, so I'm now googling how to split jar into two jars but no success yet
11:30:30 <fizzie> I think that should really just be a matter of splitting the files in any arbitrary way. As long as they're all in the classpath, I don't think it should much matter which file they're from. But who knows.
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11:30:57 <fizzie> (I can install plain Ruby on it though, if that helps.)
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11:31:44 <nakilon> I don't know Java and these things make no sense to me
11:31:58 <nakilon> I can't imagine how one jar would know it should go look into another one
11:32:24 <nakilon> > install plain Ruby
11:32:24 <nakilon> that would be awesome ..D
11:32:26 <lambdabot> error:
11:32:26 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: install :: t0 -> t1 -> terror: Variable not in sc...
11:32:35 <fizzie> The jar doesn't have to, it's the JVM that does the class-loading, and I think it just iterates over the classpath.
11:33:05 <fizzie> Ruby 2.5 seems to be the Debian (10) default. Is that fine?
11:33:28 <nakilon> yep
11:36:07 <fizzie> `ruby -v
11:36:09 <HackEso> ruby 2.5.5p157 (2019-03-15 revision 67260) [x86_64-linux-gnu]
11:36:24 <nakilon> yay! thank you! I'll make something around that
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11:49:20 <fizzie> Just realized if I used the "upper half" / "lower half" block-drawing characters in a terminal for bitmapped graphics, I'd get pretty close to a VGA mode 13h screen. That's just bizarre.
11:49:24 <fizzie> (A full-sized terminal window with my settings is 319 columns and 94 lines.)
11:49:54 <nakilon> `` echo "116/7//.@" | ./rasel
11:49:56 <HackEso> 42
11:51:46 <nakilon> `` echo 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj' | ./rasel
11:51:48 <HackEso> Hello, World!
11:52:03 <nakilon> not the best interface though ..D
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12:28:19 <nakilon> `` echo '"?yadot tuoba sthguoht ruoy era tahw tognuf">:?@,08-j' | ./rasel
12:28:20 <HackEso> fungot what are your thoughts about today?
12:28:49 <nakilon> hah, he does not respond to other bots
12:32:33 <int-e> we've had bot loops... they're never fun if the corresponding bot ops aren't around to stop them
12:33:09 <int-e> so many bots here ignore the other ones
12:34:17 <nakilon> > fungot
12:34:17 <fungot> nakilon: part of my problem like that, and you can't inspect the dynamic context any more, though
12:34:19 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: fungot
12:34:23 <fizzie> Also, some subset of the bots add a non-breaking space if the output starts with a non-alphabetic character, to avoid trigger characters. (Of course that's not applicable to triggering fungot by name.)
12:34:23 <fungot> fizzie: from what i understand, r5rs is. srfi is " scheme in 5 minutes.
12:37:24 <nakilon> arseniiv since you are back, those words are cool
12:37:43 <arseniiv> ha :)
12:38:25 <nakilon> what did you use to teach it? a dictionary or a book?
12:40:18 <nakilon> you all know the thispersondoesnotexist.com
12:40:35 <nakilon> recently I randomly entered the url thiscatdoesnotexist.com and it appeared to be a thing
12:40:59 <nakilon> I would like to make a thisnewswebsitedoesnotexist.com
12:41:33 <nakilon> or just fakenews.com
12:42:04 <nakilon> oh wait this domain is already taken
12:44:01 <fizzie> Apparently there's both thiscatdoesnotexist.com and thesecatsdonotexist.com.
12:44:07 <fizzie> The difference is, the latter has more cats (at a time).
12:45:11 <nakilon> I resist so much to download them all
12:45:33 <nakilon> can use it to generate fake karma for reddit spambots though
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13:12:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Not applicable * uploaded "[[File:Gradient to black transparent.png]]": Transparent to black linear gradient
13:20:08 <nakilon> arseniiv https://nlpub.ru/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0
13:21:14 <arseniiv> tmi
13:21:43 <esowiki> [[Unfair]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80516&oldid=80494 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Number cat */ cat
13:24:18 <nakilon> that's just a big list of the best libraries for NLP in different languages, might be helpful
13:27:36 <arseniiv> I’ll forward it to my NLP friends though, thanks! For myself I’m not much into real NLP (yet?..)
13:31:07 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80517&oldid=80504 * Not applicable * (+151)
13:31:16 <arseniiv> nakilon: ah one of them already said thanks :)
13:31:39 <nakilon> cool ..)
13:32:07 <nakilon> they might already know this resource though
13:32:13 <int-e> . o O ( there's nothing natural about NLP )
13:33:01 <NotApplicable> Is it illegal to do this on Esolangs for a user page
13:33:19 <NotApplicable> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Not_applicable
13:34:27 <arseniiv> nakilon: possible! That was the case several times when I stumbled on something related and showed them
13:35:03 <NotApplicable> Should i change it then?
13:36:00 <int-e> NotApplicable: user pages get a lot of freedom, nobody really cares, I think... as long as no actual laws are violated and it's not spam
13:36:18 <NotApplicable> Ok, thanks
13:36:27 <NotApplicable> :)
13:36:37 <nakilon> int-e friends are natual
13:36:42 <nakilon> also they are language processing
13:37:48 <NotApplicable> Ai Dungeon is probably the best natural language processing for a computer
13:37:50 <NotApplicable> lol
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13:38:51 <nakilon> I doubt it is doing any language analysis
13:39:18 <NotApplicable> I mean, it *is* AI
13:39:22 <nakilon> it's just memorizing tons of text
13:39:41 <NotApplicable> And generating an output based on that text
13:39:52 <NotApplicable> Actually, look at this
13:39:58 <nakilon> ...
13:39:59 <NotApplicable> hold on
13:40:35 <NotApplicable> https://play.aidungeon.io/main/scenarioView?publicId=af4a05f0-cc52-11ea-a06c-f134f3d35cd1
13:40:46 <nakilon> it's hype and marketing
13:53:23 <fizzie> NotApplicable: What I think might be more of a problem are the icons. There's an overall CC0 license for all "content" in the wiki, it gets put on the bottom of every page, including user pages. And the GitHub Octocat logo definitely isn't CC0.
13:53:43 <fizzie> (Not to mention that file uploads are "global", not specific to the page they're used in.)
13:54:17 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Copyrights and so on.
13:55:40 <int-e> hmm did I miss icons?
13:55:54 <NotApplicable> Ok, I'll go change that
13:56:14 <int-e> oh there
13:56:30 <NotApplicable> THe only problem is that I don't think you can delete images
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13:58:56 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80518&oldid=80517 * Not applicable * (-102) Removed icons due to copyright stuff
13:59:27 <int-e> NotApplicable: fizzie is an esowiki admin, there are ways
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14:00:17 <int-e> heh... this is hard to unsee: the github cat has a tentacle arm
14:00:34 <NotApplicable> Well, it's a cat-octupus
14:00:41 <NotApplicable> What'd you expect
14:00:56 <int-e> I always thought it was a tail
14:01:32 <NotApplicable> I think that's what they were going for lol
14:03:36 <int-e> hmm why is it an octopus... does it deal with octopus merges?
14:04:07 <NotApplicable> Nah i think i remember hearing somewhere that the founder just though it looked cool
14:04:29 <int-e> I also forgot about this version which is unambiguous. https://github.githubassets.com/images/modules/logos_page/Octocat.png
14:05:18 <NotApplicable> GitHub's mascot is an anthropomorphized "octocat" with five octopus-like arms.[54][55] The character was created by graphic designer Simon Oxley as clip art to sell on iStock,[56] a website that enables designers to market royalty-free digital images. GitHub became interested in Oxley's work after Twitter selected a bird that he designed for their
14:05:18 <NotApplicable> own logo.[57] The illustration GitHub chose was a character that Oxley had named Octopuss.[56] Since GitHub wanted Octopuss for their logo (a use that the iStock license disallows), they negotiated with Oxley to buy exclusive rights to the image.[56]
14:05:19 <NotApplicable> GitHub renamed Octopuss to Octocat,[56] and trademarked the character along with the new name.[54] Later, GitHub hired illustrator Cameron McEfee to adapt Octocat for different purposes on the website and promotional materials; McEfee and various GitHub users have since created hundreds of variations of the character, which are available on The
14:05:19 <NotApplicable> Octodex.[58][59]
14:05:26 <NotApplicable> ^wikipedia
14:05:46 <int-e> the name needs more Lovecraft... oc'thoc'aht
14:05:54 <NotApplicable> lol
14:06:20 <NotApplicable> At least it wasnt octopuss
14:06:25 <NotApplicable> that just sounds wrong
14:06:52 <int-e> Oh if it started out as Octopuss... things are beginning to make more sense.
14:07:57 <int-e> And yes I do see why they would change it... but it's the kind of adolescent humor I've come to expect from budding tech companies.
14:10:28 <NotApplicable> You know the githubassets domain?
14:10:34 <NotApplicable> go to the root
14:10:43 <NotApplicable> All it says is "welcome" and that's it
14:10:50 <NotApplicable> https://github.githubassets.com/
14:11:46 <NotApplicable> It's not even HTML
14:22:19 <NotApplicable> lol
14:34:42 <int-e> It works!
14:37:27 <NotApplicable> Anybody know what the home dir for HackEso is
14:38:11 <int-e> `pwd
14:38:12 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
14:38:32 <NotApplicable> Huh? That didnt work before
14:38:36 <int-e> `` env | grep hackenv
14:38:37 <HackEso> PWD=/hackenv/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ IRC_MESSAGE=`` env | grep hackenv
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14:58:43 <esowiki> [[Talk:Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80519&oldid=80129 * Tetrapyronia * (-54)
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15:33:14 <nakilon> `` echo $HOME
15:33:15 <HackEso> ​/tmp
15:38:13 <fizzie> I always thought the OctoCat had something do with merges too.
15:39:02 <fizzie> And yeah, it's maybe a little confusing that the current working directory of each command != the home directory.
15:41:01 <fizzie> The rationale is something like, we want the cwd to be persistent but not version-controlled (to make it more convenient to do multi-step operations, but to not default to making a permanent commit), and we want the home directory to be definitely non-version-controlled because of all the programs that like sticking stuff into $HOME. I guess you could argue for making $HOME /hackenv/tmp, or
15:41:07 <fizzie> /hackenv/tmp/home, or something. But setting it to /tmp predates the existence of /hackenv/tmp, which was a later innovation.
15:42:20 <fizzie> (I'll take a look at deleting the images at some point, I did do it for some other upload in the past.)
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16:32:59 * nakilon never thought that $HOME and $pwd have to be the same
16:49:03 <NotApplicable> `? recursion
16:49:04 <HackEso> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
16:54:58 <nakilon> `? ?
16:55:00 <HackEso> ​? is wisdom
16:55:10 <NotApplicable> `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:55:12 <HackEso> ​¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:55:21 <nakilon> `? wisdom
16:55:22 <HackEso> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
16:56:14 <NotApplicable> `? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:56:16 <HackEso> ​¯\(°​_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:56:35 <NotApplicable> ``? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ | hd
16:56:36 <HackEso> ​`?? No such file or directory
16:56:53 <NotApplicable> `` ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ | hd
16:56:54 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: `? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ | hd'
16:57:01 <nakilon> I've spent an hour right now to come up with own way to mark up sentences and have marked up 100 news articles
16:57:50 <int-e> `` which hd
16:57:51 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/hd
16:57:52 <nakilon> about 6% of them are grammatically correct and funny but unfortunately you won't understand the language, lol
16:58:45 <int-e> `` \? '¯\(°​_o)/¯' | hd
16:58:47 <HackEso> 000000 c2 af 5c 28 c2 b0 e2 80 8b 5f 6f 29 2f c2 af 20 >..\(....._o)/.. < \ 000010 69 73 20 61 20 6d 69 73 73 70 65 6c 6c 69 6e 67 >is a misspelling< \ 000020 20 6f 66 20 c2 af 5c 28 c2 b0 5f 6f 29 2f c2 af > of ..\(.._o)/..< \ 000030 0a >.< \ 000031
16:59:11 <nakilon> actually marking up English titles would be much easier
16:59:25 <int-e> `unidecode °°
16:59:26 <HackEso> ​[U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN]
16:59:33 <int-e> mm
16:59:48 <nakilon> I'll try some /r/programming feed I guess
17:03:43 <int-e> so the former has an extra zero-width space... no idea why
17:04:50 <NotApplicable> I think it's because it says it is the misspelling
17:04:56 <NotApplicable> but they look the same
17:11:41 <nakilon> there was another utility that actually
17:11:45 <nakilon> xxsomething
17:12:00 <nakilon> xxd
17:12:01 <NotApplicable> `` find xx*
17:12:04 <HackEso> find: ‘xx*’: No such file or directory
17:12:15 <nakilon> and I use hexdump for some reason on my machine
17:12:19 <nakilon> hexdump -C
17:12:21 <NotApplicable> `` ls /hackenv/bin/xx*
17:12:22 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/hackenv/bin/xx*': No such file or directory
17:12:24 <NotApplicable> `` ls /hackenv/bin/x*
17:12:26 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/xkcdwhatiflist
17:12:37 <nakilon> `` which xxd
17:12:38 <HackEso> No output.
17:12:47 <nakilon> `` which vim
17:12:48 <HackEso> No output.
17:12:56 <NotApplicable> `` which ?
17:12:58 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/?
17:12:58 <nakilon> I believe it installs with vim
17:13:06 <NotApplicable> `` vim
17:13:07 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: vim: command not found
17:13:09 <NotApplicable> `` vi
17:13:10 <HackEso> ex/vi: Error: /var/tmp/vi.recover: No such file or directory \ ex/vi: Modifications not recoverable if the session fails \ ex/vi: Error: /var/tmp/vi.recover/vi.6b4N9d: No such file or directory \ Error: stderr: Inappropriate ioctl for device
17:13:16 <NotApplicable> ah
17:13:22 <NotApplicable> `` which vim'
17:13:23 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 6: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:13:25 <NotApplicable> `` which vim
17:13:26 <HackEso> No output.
17:13:31 <NotApplicable> `` which vi
17:13:32 <HackEso> ​/usr/bin/vi
17:14:03 <NotApplicable> `` ls / -R | grep "xx"
17:14:12 <HackEso> ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/map_files': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory '/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission
17:15:11 <int-e> `which xxd
17:15:12 <HackEso> No output.
17:15:20 <NotApplicable> `` xxd
17:15:21 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: xxd: command not found
17:15:23 <NotApplicable> `xxd
17:15:24 <HackEso> xxd? No such file or directory
17:16:13 <NotApplicable> `` ls / -R 2>/dev/null | grep "xx"
17:16:49 <HackEso> No output.
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17:19:45 <NotApplicable> `` ls / -R 2>/dev/null | grep xx
17:20:21 <HackEso> No output.
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17:52:17 <esowiki> [[V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80520&oldid=80375 * Bo Tie * (+84) Interpreter :)
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17:54:33 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80521&oldid=80520 * Bo Tie * (+0) too many edits
18:03:43 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80522&oldid=80521 * Bo Tie * (-25)
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21:48:42 <zzo38> Snow World Land {-} Snow World Land ;; All objects are snow. ;; {T}: Add {C}. ;; When ~ dies, add one mana of any color into your mana pool or return a non-snow world card or non-world snow card from your graveyard into your hand.
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22:49:32 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80523 * Erinius * (+79) created
22:50:15 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80524&oldid=78118 * Erinius * (+34)
23:07:22 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80525&oldid=80523 * Erinius * (+139)
23:16:57 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80526&oldid=80508 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* 99 bottles of beer */ huh, one of my bounds was off! Verified using a still-unsure-if-it's-really-working interpreter
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23:26:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80527&oldid=80526 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Reverse cat */ substrings are weird. I'm probably gonna need to fix a bunch of programs just for this problem. I can't quite wrap my head around it.
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23:29:29 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80528&oldid=80293 * Digital Hunter * (+92) /* Parse this sic */ Really really sorry. This has been tested with a semi-working interpreter so if it's actually still broken then I'll give up for sure.
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23:34:40 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80529&oldid=80527 * Digital Hunter * (-27) /* Info to come */
23:34:54 <fizzie> Hmm, wonder if this "postmarketOS" thing is any good. It seems to be pretty much the only potentially still maintained Linux thing I can find for a 2012 Nexus 7 tablet.
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23:55:30 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
23:55:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 032350Z 13008KT CAVOK M18/M20 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 12008KT
23:55:34 <oerjan> brrr
23:56:03 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
23:56:04 <lambdabot> EGLL 032350Z AUTO 21005KT 9999 NCD 05/03 Q1006 NOSIG
23:56:16 <fizzie> It was all spring-y here the other day.
23:56:18 <shachaf> hierjan
23:56:29 <oerjan> hichaf, hizzie
23:56:35 <shachaf> @metar koak
23:56:36 <lambdabot> KOAK 032353Z 25011KT 10SM FEW042 FEW095 14/07 A3021 RMK AO2 SLP229 T01440072 10156 20122 55013
23:56:52 <fizzie> Oh, that reminds me, I was supposed to look at deleting those file uploads.
23:59:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Reddit logo onwhite.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
2021-02-04
00:00:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:All-other-usernames-were-taken.favicon.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
00:00:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:Scratch cat head.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
00:00:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Fizzie * deleted "[[File:GitHub-Mark-120px-plus.png]]": Copyright violation: Accidental upload of a likely non-CC0 file
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00:00:52 <fizzie> I imagine the second one might've been okay, but it wasn't used anyway, so.
00:01:33 <kmc> is the wiki all CC0
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00:03:19 <fizzie> It's supposed to be. Although now that we're talking icons, I wonder about our hosting sponsor badge, for example. The declaration says "all content" and doesn't elaborate.
00:03:43 <fizzie> Well, the Esolang:Copyrights page also uses the word "everything".
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07:22:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Picofuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80530&oldid=72548 * Salpynx * (+649) /* PF attempt, using a hypothetical RBF self-interpreter */ did this ages ago, neglected to link it from anywhere. Happy 2021!
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09:42:49 <nakilon> `? metar
09:42:52 <HackEso> metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
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13:11:50 <nakilon> marking up the /r/programming titles is much harder and less effective than titles of the news website that has editors
13:12:20 <nakilon> no weird character, question marks, caps lock, multiple sentences within a single title, etc.
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14:27:13 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80531&oldid=80522 * Bo Tie * (+0)
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16:13:09 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80532&oldid=80114 * Tetrapyronia * (+23)
16:14:49 <esowiki> [[Turi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80533&oldid=80532 * Tetrapyronia * (+14)
16:22:05 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80534&oldid=80529 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* Fibonacci numbers */
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16:35:22 <int-e> shachaf: played a bit of AME, found 3 new friends... still skeptical about ever completing it
16:52:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Smasheded * New user account
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16:57:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80535&oldid=80489 * Smasheded * (+213)
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18:13:33 <esowiki> [[Cav]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80536 * Smasheded * (+1892) initial commit
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19:01:36 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80537&oldid=80536 * Smasheded * (+255)
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19:38:59 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80538&oldid=80537 * Smasheded * (+883)
19:40:41 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80539&oldid=80538 * Smasheded * (+27)
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20:06:41 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80540&oldid=80539 * Smasheded * (+125)
20:14:36 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80541&oldid=80540 * Smasheded * (+126)
20:18:59 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80542&oldid=80541 * Smasheded * (+171)
20:24:08 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80543&oldid=80542 * Smasheded * (-3)
20:35:37 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80544&oldid=80543 * Smasheded * (+90)
20:54:56 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80545&oldid=80544 * Smasheded * (+67)
20:58:33 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80546&oldid=80545 * Smasheded * (+8)
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22:41:07 <esowiki> [[BitSwitch]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80547&oldid=78985 * Bloodyknucles * (-368)
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00:48:16 <esowiki> [[Cav]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80548&oldid=80546 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Cat languages
00:48:59 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80549&oldid=80507 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* C */ Add [[Cav]]
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01:33:28 <nakilon> int-e what is AME?
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01:40:07 <oerjan> ask me everything, obviously. the more strenuous version of AMA.
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01:45:58 <shachaf> A Monster's Expedition
01:46:08 <shachaf> (But oerjan's answer is better. You should ask oerjan everything.)
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01:59:26 <nakilon> so spending an hour I've marked up 65 post titles -- made own markup system that fits my "fake titles" algorithm
02:00:38 <nakilon> how I think that if I take some existing library I can ask it to mark up both the 65 titles and any number of others
02:01:19 <nakilon> and when it marks up some word in the other title it can find the similar word from those that I've marked up and copy my marking
02:01:49 <nakilon> should be almost correct
02:02:04 <nakilon> *now I think that
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05:01:21 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80550&oldid=79878 * IFcoltransG * (+0) /* Description */ Spelling
05:02:25 <esowiki> [[Or]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80551&oldid=80550 * IFcoltransG * (+1) More Spelling
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09:10:07 <esowiki> [[0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80552 * Baidicoot * (+46) Created page with "== 0 == === Instructions === 0 - calculates 0"
09:10:28 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80553&oldid=80552 * Baidicoot * (-8) /* 0 */
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11:22:38 <nakilon> fizzie, what does "stalker mode" mean here? https://esolangs.org/logs/
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11:24:47 <shachaf> Live updates.
11:25:08 <int-e> it's for people who'd otherwise keep reloading the current log to see what's going on on the channel, without logging into IRC
11:25:12 <fizzie> Breakage is what it means.
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11:25:24 <fizzie> What shachaf and int-e describe is what it *should* be.
11:25:52 <int-e> so... stalkers, who observe without being seen
11:26:11 <fizzie> But it uses a websocket-based fancy thing to get a real-time feed, and there's something odd wrong with the websocket support of the embedded HTTP server it's using, so it occasionally breaks the rest of the logs web frontend.
11:26:25 <fizzie> (I don't know exactly what the circumstances are.)
11:26:26 <int-e> oh
11:26:55 <fizzie> I should try to update to the latest version of that code, maybe they've accidentally fixed it by now.
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11:32:35 <nakilon> ok, thx
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11:33:58 <nakilon> my russian news website proxy RSS was limited to 100 entries, the /r/programming top-month (and currently any other Reddit posts feeds for some reason) are limited to 64 entries
11:34:26 <nakilon> so to test my idea I need some bigger source of quotes and I'm gonna use this channel logs then ..D
11:34:45 <arseniiv> hi
11:35:16 <nakilon> hi
11:35:18 <arseniiv> oh, these logs are awesome if you filter all service messages like who joins and leaves
11:35:35 <nakilon> yeah, gotta filter out usernames as well
11:35:57 <nakilon> arseniiv, are you russian-speaking?
11:36:03 <arseniiv> yep
11:37:07 <nakilon> check out these fake news (learned on 100 recent lentaru entries): "Ученые захотели картофель цивилизации Навального", "В США в центре Москвы заподозрили мир"
11:38:51 <arseniiv> :D :D
11:43:07 <fizzie> fungot: What's your position on the fake news media?
11:43:07 <fungot> fizzie: so sarahbot is broken."
11:43:16 <fizzie> ^style europarl
11:43:16 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
11:43:23 <fizzie> fungot: Please elucidate.
11:43:23 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i very much welcome the response and their three key recommendations to improve the awareness and training of seafarers, access to information, access to the network and equal and fair operating and profit rules, since its accession to the eu' s priority is to be expected that the commission should look at the plants and on our television screens and the cultural identity of each country to have a group, t
11:44:01 <fizzie> TBH, the commission "looking at -- our television screens" sounds like they're just goofing off.
11:44:06 <arseniiv> I misread “elucidate” as “euclidiate”
11:44:11 <int-e> fungot: please keep it witin the 30 seconds time frame
11:44:12 <fungot> int-e: mr president, the commission fnord. on the other hand, a highly security-conscious, repressive and utilitarian vision geared to their own independent, sovereign state. i approached an elderly man there as well. there is no repetition of such unscrupulous behaviour by cowboy operators.
11:44:35 <int-e> arseniiv: that's uncanny because I also did that
11:44:59 <arseniiv> :D
11:45:03 <Taneb> Is the fnording per style or global
11:45:26 <fizzie> Taneb: The amount of fnording depends on the style, but the word itself is global.
11:45:38 <Taneb> I mean, what gets mapped to "fnord"
11:45:45 <shachaf> Haneb
11:45:50 <shachaf> Did you rescue any kittens?
11:45:55 <Taneb> A few but not many
11:45:59 <Taneb> I haven't got the hang of it yet
11:46:06 <fizzie> It's how fungot pronounces the special token `UNK`, which is used at least in some styles to replace words that are very infrequent.
11:46:07 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, over the last three years, and its secretariat. as you well know, of course, saying that it is simply a copy of the letter to me from indonesia offers a ray of hope. despite these reservations concerning the molitor report and the other is urban policy. when the white paper on food safety, are, firstly, i should like to start by expressing my hope and my expectation that the parliament itself calls into qu
11:46:14 <int-e> fungot: is it part of the model generation or baked into fungot?
11:46:15 <fungot> int-e: mr president, again it is also important in the context of council discussions. on the issue, at all times, the commissioner, in relation to what are known as the ' prodi amendment' and the thinking included in your files, should replace nothing, but was planned by mr milosevic nearly eight years ago and is now defined in the santer package, since objective 5a and 5b of the structural funds, as we hope it will we can sti
11:46:22 <int-e> fizzie is it part of the model generation or baked into fungot?
11:46:22 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i wish to mention two issues which have been working behind the scenes, but to combating such an important question, and, in general, and to try to make democracy work for ordinary people. there is no question about that.
11:46:38 <int-e> fungot: oh stfu
11:46:38 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i wish to thank the commission for remaining relatively modest and not having claimed, like some of the palestinian territories. it is an issue of such importance! do not take a stand in the way that we want and have just decided not to include them as beneficiaries of social policy. i think it would be wrong for us to be able to reach a universally satisfactory solution.
11:47:21 <fizzie> The word itself is baked into. Replacing infrequent words is part of the training. It's in fact a pretty standard practice of ngram language models, except that when you're using them to just give likelihood scores to sentences, it's a lot less "visible" than when you're using them generatively.
11:48:29 <fizzie> The actual fnording happens in https://github.com/fis/fun%67ot/blob/master/fun%67ot.b98#L157
11:49:11 <arseniiv> wwait so fungot is spelled with an IPA ɡ?
11:49:11 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, we are moving forward significantly, but i would prefer a different wording which will render the constitutionally protected rights acquired by the anti-globalisation movement by appearing to be sensitive in its dealings with us the united states
11:49:26 <fizzie> arseniiv: No, %67 is just the standard ASCII g.
11:49:34 <fizzie> I just escaped it to avoid the spam.
11:49:52 <arseniiv> rofoldl
11:50:28 <Taneb> arseniiv: rofoldl has bad strictness properties, you should generally use either rofoldr to rofoldl'
11:52:32 <arseniiv> Taneb: I know, that’s why I… oops where did all the memory go
11:52:45 <int-e> fizzie: somehow, github doesn't like that trick at all
11:55:03 <int-e> ( https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/notfound.png )
11:56:00 <int-e> (made more irritating because Firefox pretty-prints the %67 as 'g')
11:56:18 <nakilon> what trick? https://i.imgur.com/b29FeOn.png
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12:01:53 <fizzie> Weeird. Worked for me.
12:02:30 <Taneb> I click the link, it says "Not found", I press enter in the address bar, it resolves as expected
12:02:42 <fizzie> Computers: they're hard. :/
12:03:11 <Taneb> (I am using Firefox, if it helps)
12:03:33 <shachaf> int-e's link says notfound for me.
12:03:37 <shachaf> But I haven't clicked it.
12:05:54 <int-e> Taneb: oh, so pressing return is not the same as marking the URL and pasting it again...
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12:34:18 * nakilon is thinking how to remove nicknames from messages if someone has used the common English word as a nickname
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12:41:38 <fizzie> I once drew a just-for-fun chart of "relationships" between people on a forum I was archiving, based on who mentioned whose name most frequently. A handful of people who were pretty much never posting ended up being the most popular ones around, because they had common (Finnish) words as their user names.
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13:03:44 <nakilon> looks like there is a channel ##nlp
13:04:13 <nakilon> I might visit it some day to share my shame
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13:34:42 <nakilon> I think I'll just whitelist those words when I find them
13:38:05 <nakilon> 19:49:56 <world> Hi
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14:24:02 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80554&oldid=80548 * Smasheded * (+164)
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14:28:17 <esowiki> [[Cav]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80555&oldid=80554 * Smasheded * (+178)
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17:16:42 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cirrubec * New user account
17:17:11 <b_jonas> "made more irritating because Firefox pretty-prints the %67 as 'g'" => yes, but it gives the real URL when you copy-paste the whole thing, not the pretty-printed version
17:18:57 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> A handful of people who were pretty much never posting ended up being the most popular ones around, because they had common (Finnish) words as their user names." => that happens here on #esoteric too
17:19:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80556&oldid=80535 * Cirrubec * (+143)
17:20:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80557&oldid=80556 * Cirrubec * (+64)
17:20:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80558&oldid=70577 * Cirrubec * (+3156)
17:20:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Qwote]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80559&oldid=80558 * Cirrubec * (+2)
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18:57:33 <int-e> pfft. 'Buy Baba's Sausage Expedition - Puzzle Game Masterpieces BUNDLE'
18:58:34 <int-e> (currently on Steam, contains Baba is You, Stephen's Sausage Roll and A Monster's Expedition))
18:59:02 <kmc> heh-
19:09:14 <nakilon> "Baba is You" reminds me XOR
19:09:42 <nakilon> https://www.mobygames.com/game/xor/screenshots
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19:12:51 <esowiki> [[0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80560&oldid=80553 * Baidicoot * (+70)
19:13:43 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80561&oldid=80560 * Baidicoot * (+57) /* Instructions */
19:14:30 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80562&oldid=80561 * Baidicoot * (+2) /* Instructions */
19:16:11 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80563&oldid=80562 * Baidicoot * (+83) /* Instructions */
19:17:05 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80564&oldid=80563 * Baidicoot * (+79) /* Implementations */
19:19:21 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80565&oldid=80564 * Baidicoot * (+35) /* Implementations */
19:24:16 <esowiki> [[0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80566&oldid=80565 * Baidicoot * (+42) /* Haskell */
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21:24:58 <esowiki> [[Qwote]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80567&oldid=59000 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) /* Implementation(s) */ Mention existing implementations; cats
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21:42:43 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80568&oldid=80518 * Not applicable * (+127) added window manager to stuff
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22:59:37 <fizzie> "A query on a continuous aggregate will, by default, use real-time aggregation (first introduced in TimescaleDB 1.7) to combine materialized aggregates with recent data from the source hypertable." So shiny.
23:00:14 <fizzie> (Been looking for a reasonable time-series database, after having given up on Graphite and InfluxDB in the past.)
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23:24:44 <shachaf> Why did you give up on them?
23:25:13 <shachaf> Hmm, I've been thinking a bunch about a query language for relational data that would be nicer than SQL.
23:25:21 <shachaf> I should probably think about time series data too.
23:27:02 <fizzie> I'm not sure I remember all the details, and the reasons might not have been particularly reasonable.
23:27:04 <zzo38> One alternative to SQL might be Tutorial D, although I have not worked with it.
23:27:30 <fizzie> For example, I think I gave up on InfluxDB because it was constantly using 2-3% of CPU time of the machine it was running on even when not doing anything.
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23:28:45 <fizzie> For Graphite, I think I just found it annoyingly inflexible w.r.t. labels and such, and also complicated to configure. If memory serves, you had to put everything in a slash-separated metric name.
23:29:33 <int-e> "Don’t worry about cardinality."
23:30:20 <shachaf> By the way, I found out about perf top recently. Did you know about it?
23:30:38 <fizzie> TimescaleDB, as far as I've understood so far, is a PostgreSQL extension, and I used to kind of understand PostgreSQL. Also, the idea of being able to write SQL kind of sounds like it'd be like using [REDACTED] and [REDACTED].
23:31:23 <fizzie> Oh, I guess Dremel isn't redacted.
23:31:44 <fizzie> And F1 isn't redacted either, so never mind those redactions.
23:34:57 <fizzie> Looks like "from the release of the 1.1.x series", Graphite's learned about tags, so that criticism is probably no longer valid. (Also, the metric path was '.'-delimited rather than '/'-delimited.)
23:35:01 <zzo38> I know to work SQLite, but I don't know how the time scale queries will be needing.
23:37:48 <shachaf> Man, using Dremel was part of what got me in the anti-SQL mood.
23:38:58 <fizzie> I can see how it could. But it hasn't for me.
23:40:36 <Hooloovo0> perf is a really useful tool, as long as your stuff is supported... which is only really the case for major architectures
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23:42:54 <fizzie> shachaf: Did you see that musical?
23:43:30 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean, so probably not?
23:43:35 <fizzie> shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhpASkz0JU0
23:44:28 <fizzie> It's a bit long. And maybe in questionable taste for some parts. But I did find it amusing too.
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2021-02-06
00:31:22 <shachaf> fizzie: A bit surprising that it was published.
00:33:06 <fizzie> I found that a bit surprising too. But it's there in the public YouTube. And I've not heard of any sort of crackdown, and it's been a week.
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00:34:36 <shachaf> But whenn are they going to make the 5TB video public?
00:36:40 <rain1> do you woik at google?
00:38:08 <shachaf> Nope. Do you?
00:38:19 <rain1> no
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03:49:34 <esowiki> [[User:Salpynx]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80569&oldid=70776 * Salpynx * (+758) Some thoughts on Encoding vs. Computation
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04:43:52 <jr> Anyone have a proof that this is Turing-complete? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ultimate_bf_instruction_minimalization!
04:44:20 <jr> In particular, I'm interested in the instruction set <>+? where ? denotes skipping the next instruction.
04:45:02 <jr> Don't care about I/O for now.
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05:11:05 <Sgeo> "Closures are self-contained blocks of functionality that can be passed around and used in your code. Closures in Swift are similar to blocks in C and Objective-C and to lambdas in other programming languages."
05:11:24 <Sgeo> Had to look up C blocks... it's a Apple specific extension to C.
05:12:18 <adu> I had to add those to my C parser
05:12:37 <adu> because stdio.h has them on mac
05:24:38 <shachaf> Does Ada have blocks?
05:24:41 <shachaf> `? sgeolang
05:24:44 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
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05:32:44 <Sgeo> ?!?!?!?!?
05:32:45 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
05:32:49 <Sgeo> https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/celtic-religion-overview
05:32:56 <Sgeo> " For example, several of the feinnidi were born of mothers in animal form, and the Fian's great hounds, Bran and Sgeolang, had a human mother."
05:33:59 <Sgeo> I... think it's usually supposed to be Sceolang?
05:34:35 <Sgeo> "BRAN (2) One of the sons of Tuireann also bore this name, born to her when she had been turned into a wolfhound by her husband's envious mistress. Both Bran and his brother Sgeolang/Sceolang were born in this form and became the faithful hounds of Fionn mac Cumhaill (cf)"
05:34:39 <Sgeo> https://hubpages.com/education/LIFE-ON-THE-FRINGE-11-Boann-two-Brans-Brigid-and-Supporting-Cast
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05:55:19 <Sgeo> I feel weird about Swift documentation being on apple.com
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06:58:23 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GrapeApple * New user account
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07:08:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80570&oldid=80557 * GrapeApple * (+133) /* Introductions */
07:19:07 <esowiki> [[User:GrapeApple]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80571 * GrapeApple * (+12) Created page with "Hello World!"
07:19:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SansTheComic * New user account
07:19:30 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AviFS * New user account
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07:22:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80572&oldid=80570 * SansTheComic * (+112) /* Introductions */
07:28:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80573&oldid=80572 * AviFS * (+214) Added AviFS
07:28:34 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80574&oldid=14157 * AviFS * (+29825) Copy/pasted documentation from author's reference implementation: https://github.com/catseye/Cabra/blob/master/doc/cabra.html
07:48:37 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80575&oldid=80574 * AviFS * (-27) Fixed link
07:58:24 <esowiki> [[IDK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80576 * GrapeApple * (+25) Created page with "<h1>work in progress</h1>"
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09:08:45 <esowiki> [[Talk:HTPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80577 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+105) Created page with "This is the talk page for [[HTPL]]. Feel free to add your comments, feedback or whatever you think of it."
09:15:09 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80578&oldid=79454 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+78) /* Syntax */ clarified switch
09:15:58 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80579&oldid=80578 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+3) /* Syntax */
09:17:07 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80580&oldid=80579 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+52) /* Syntax */
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10:20:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:HTPL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80581&oldid=80577 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+723) /* Infallibility? */ new section
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10:29:53 <esowiki> [[User:ThisIsTheFoxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80582&oldid=78093 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+0) /* HTPL / HTPF */
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10:32:05 <esowiki> [[User:ThisIsTheFoxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80583&oldid=80582 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (-72) /* About Me */
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13:48:07 <esowiki> [[IDK]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80584&oldid=80576 * SansTheComic * (+93)
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14:02:37 <esowiki> [[Cabra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80585&oldid=80575 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4182) Use wikitext (hope I didn't break anything)
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14:27:48 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80586&oldid=80534 * Digital Hunter * (-3) /* Fibonacci numbers */ Silly bug!
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15:05:18 <fizzie> Heh, this system has states "INVALID" and "NONINVALID".
15:11:48 <nakilon> which system?
15:12:15 <nakilon> that DB?
15:16:07 <fizzie> No, just a random local government website.
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15:29:06 <esowiki> [[HTPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80587&oldid=80580 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+19) /* Hello World */ Fix; link
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15:42:40 <ais523> ooh, I think I just found a gcc bug
15:43:21 <ais523> gcc compiles "a - (b * b)" (where a and b are doubles) to a fused multiply-add instruction with -O3 -fno-fast-math -ffloat-store -mavx -mfma
15:44:39 <ais523> which produces a result that's more accurate than the C standard and compiler settings allow (it's supposed to round after the multiplication)
15:44:55 <ais523> actually I should be using -fexcess-precision=standard, not -ffloat-store, but it comes to the same thing either way
15:45:42 <myname> wait, the c standard doesn't define shit about mostly anything but it has an upper bound on how precise computational results have to be?
15:46:11 <ais523> C99 was aimed at scientific computing so it has a lot of information about floating-point rounding
15:46:39 <myname> LKoen: ^
15:47:08 <APic>
15:47:24 <LKoen> hi
15:47:44 <ais523> same thing happens with #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT 0 specified explicitly
15:48:12 <LKoen> freaking compilers being zealously precise
15:48:55 <ais523> I think the problem happens because excess precision is something that compiler-writers don't think about much because their internal representations don't distinguish between excess-precision and standard-precision floats
15:49:02 <ais523> hmm, let me try this on clang
15:49:47 <ais523> ooh, clang seems to respect the pragma, at least
15:50:09 <LKoen> can you imagine if your friend runs an errand for you and you have to pay them back and they say it's 46.56 euros and they insist you pay them back precisely
15:50:34 <LKoen> rather than just taking your 50 euro note, they insist on manipulating copper pieces
15:50:36 <ais523> yep, if I #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT OFF or #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT ON it changes clang's output appropriately
15:50:46 <LKoen> clang is pretty good at the warning game
15:50:59 <LKoen> I'm sure it could warn you if it accidentally was too precise
15:51:04 <ais523> but gcc doesn't respond to the pragma
15:51:21 <LKoen> being afraid of too much precision doesn't sound very pragmatic
15:51:24 <ais523> really the problem is that C doesn't have any way to say "excess precision is OK in this small subset of an expression"
15:51:41 <ais523> all you can do is say that it's OK everywhere, or nowhere, within a given statement
15:53:44 <ais523> floating point math would be so much easier to do sensibly if your language explicitly marked must-round and may-round locations within an expression
15:54:24 <ais523> anyway, this all came out of an investigation I'm doing into how languages and compilers handle expressions that have obvious meanings but have issues with the range of the data type you're using
15:54:43 <ais523> for example, how do you take the average of two size_t values in C (rounding towards 0)?
15:58:29 <ais523> the best I can do is (x >> 1) + (y >> 1) + (x & y & 1), which a) is really unintuitive, b) isn't optimised correctly by the compilers I tested
15:58:54 <ais523> (you'd want it to optimise into mov, add, rcr, ret, but compilers can't figure that out)
15:59:44 <ais523> and I'm pretty sure the reason that the compilers get this wrong is that a) C doesn't give any way to specify that you want a 65-bit intermediate value in an expression), b) the compilers' intermediate representation doesn't allow for 65-bit arithmetic either
16:00:14 <ais523> even though c) almost every processor I've seen has some convenient way to handle the extra bit when you need it
16:13:49 <fizzie> I wonder if you could express that in terms of GCC's __builtin_uaddll_overflow or whatnot to get a more reasonable assembly output. Maybe not.
16:14:16 <fizzie> (It'd give you a name for the outgoing carry bit, at least.)
16:15:30 <ais523> let me try it
16:15:41 <ais523> you can definitely express it but I'm not sure whether the compiler finds the optimization
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16:20:42 <ais523> with that, gcc reads the carry flag, but doesn't manage to optimize out the if statement
16:21:09 <ais523> oddly, it produces different asm when I OR with 0x8000000000000000, and when I add 0x8000000000000000
16:22:30 <ais523> clang, meanwhile, produces the same code in both cases, but it's kind-of horrible
16:23:06 <ais523> it manages to avoid the jump, but it does so using a cmov, and it does the addition twice (once to calculate the bottom 64 bits using lea, and a separate time to calculate the carry using add)
16:25:15 <APic> -_-
16:27:15 <ais523> gcc's code with | looks like it would be pretty efficient if branch-predicted correctly (but not as good as an rcr)
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16:39:24 <fizzie> I once wrote some code for a TI DSP (coursework back in university), it was natively 16-bit but it had two accumulator registers both 40 bits wide. TI had a C compiler for it, but I don't remember at all how it could cope with that. Maybe there was a special custom 40-bit type; the standard types were all normal (16-bit char, short and int; 32-bit long).
16:39:59 <fizzie> Maybe the idea was just that you'd use their handwritten assembly building blocks, and C just for wiring things up.
16:40:33 <ais523> I once used a "C" compiler that targeted microcontrollers, which had very weird string behaviour
16:41:05 <ais523> I think that if you called a function with a string literal as argument, it replaced that with a number of repeated calls to the function, giving it one new character each time
16:41:43 <ais523> also, the licensing was somewhat muddled, it attempted to be software-enforced shareware, but was gcc-derived
16:42:38 <ais523> so I could just look at the source to see where the license check was, then (legally) patch it out
16:44:37 <APic> GPL Violations suck
16:45:13 <ais523> it wasn't a GPL violation, just an attempt to trick people who didn't know better into paying for GPL executables
16:45:40 <APic> ic
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22:24:09 <esowiki> [[Photon (Quintopia)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80588 * Quintopia * (+10650) Created page
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22:33:10 <esowiki> [[Photon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80589&oldid=69394 * Quintopia * (+86) link
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23:08:02 <esowiki> [[Talk:Photon (Quintopia)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80590 * IFcoltransG * (+420) Added note about redactions
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23:32:33 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80591&oldid=80549 * Quintopia * (+25) /* P */
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2021-02-07
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01:17:08 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I... think it's usually supposed to be Sceolang? <-- argh.
01:17:32 <oerjan> feel free to include something suitably celtic in the entry
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01:19:19 <Sgeo> My knowledge of Celtic anything is limited to the existence of a dog named Sceolang and that Enya has music related to Celtic culture.
01:20:49 <oerjan> i didn't know about the dog but i've been aware of a dog of dogs
01:21:41 <oerjan> wait
01:21:47 <oerjan> i'm confused
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01:56:07 <nakilon> 05:00:38 <nakilon> how I think that if I take some existing library ...
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01:57:03 <nakilon> the only thing I've found is https://www.cis.uni-muenchen.de/~schmid/tools/TreeTagger/
01:57:55 <nakilon> and compared to mystem (that is Russian only) it gives to little information that my plan didn't work well
01:58:06 <nakilon> *so little
01:59:07 <nakilon> the automated tagging appeared to be only 45% accurate
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03:28:46 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80592&oldid=80525 * Erinius * (+110)
03:35:31 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80593&oldid=80584 * GrapeApple * (-35)
03:45:19 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80594&oldid=80593 * GrapeApple * (+97)
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04:34:46 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80595&oldid=80594 * GrapeApple * (+1137)
04:36:25 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80596&oldid=80595 * GrapeApple * (-15) /* Language */
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04:41:23 <b_jonas> ais523: if it's C11 mode then try #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT OFF
04:48:03 <b_jonas> "<ais523> really the problem is that C doesn't have any way to say "excess precision is OK in this small subset of an expression" => it does: enable -fexcess-precision=standard or -std=c11 for standard behavior, then use an assignment or cast to force a value without excess precision. that's documented.
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04:50:42 <b_jonas> "for example, how do you take the average of two size_t values in C (rounding towards 0)?" => Hacker's Delight suggests (x & y) + ((x ^ y) >> 1)
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04:55:06 <b_jonas> but you're probably right that the hand-written assembly might work better here
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06:17:04 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80597&oldid=80596 * GrapeApple * (-32) /* Language */
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09:54:05 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80598&oldid=79780 * Maxi * (+453) /* Other */
09:54:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80599&oldid=80598 * Maxi * (-586) /* Languages that compile to brainfuck */
09:54:40 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck code generation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80600&oldid=80599 * Maxi * (+586) /* Other */
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10:49:21 <nakilon> with this p-o-s tagger results are even worse: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ark/TweetNLP/
10:50:09 <nakilon> maybe because they use only one char long tags
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12:42:23 <esowiki> [[Flame]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80601 * CatLooks * (+76) Created page with "'''Flame''' is a programming language created by [[User:CatLooks|CatLooks]]."
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13:15:39 <nakilon> results of these one https://code.google.com/archive/p/hunpos/ are close to tree-tagger; this one https://textblob.readthedocs.io/en/dev/index.html worked for me as bad as ARK
13:32:02 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80602 * Gilbert189 * (+4679) Created page with ":''Note that I have horribly translated this page just for the heck of it. The original text should be available.'' :''Remember, this is just an example. Dictionary, syntax, e..."
13:34:03 <esowiki> [[Talk:Horribly Translated BASIC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80603 * Gilbert189 * (+4830) Created page with "==Original text== :''Note that this is only an example. The keywords, syntax, and any other should not be exactly like this.'' Horribly Translated BASIC is BASIC but horribly..."
13:36:21 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80604&oldid=80602 * Gilbert189 * (+33)
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13:39:27 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80605&oldid=80604 * Gilbert189 * (+77)
13:40:22 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80606&oldid=80605 * Gilbert189 * (+27)
13:42:23 <esowiki> [[SQ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80607&oldid=80276 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+74) /* Opcodes */ Categories
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14:34:13 <esowiki> [[User:Gilbert189]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80608&oldid=80514 * Gilbert189 * (+32)
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17:04:51 <esowiki> [[BSS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80609&oldid=80395 * CatLooks * (+2335)
17:22:16 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80610&oldid=80146 * Hakerh400 * (+221)
17:24:23 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80611&oldid=80610 * Hakerh400 * (-36)
17:26:09 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/JavaScript Quiz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80612&oldid=80611 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
17:30:23 <b_jonas> apparently I can't type "quest". my fingers finish it as "question".
17:35:06 <int-e> typing of questionable quality
17:35:32 <b_jonas> yeah
17:53:50 <fizzie> A quest for an ion.
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18:14:02 <shachaf> What are some interesting Las Vegas algorithms that aren't SAT or that kind of search problem?
18:14:29 <shachaf> There are a lot of randomized algorithms, like randomized quicksort or something, but those finish quickly with such high probability that they barely count.
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18:43:11 <fizzie> Is "hammersmith" the kind of smith that makes hammers, or the kind of smith that uses hammers to make other things (possibly also including hammers)?
18:43:29 <NotApplicable> yes
18:44:09 <fizzie> It seems to be a maker of hammers, if wiktionary is to be believed.
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18:49:33 <int-e> two more islands, one more friend...
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20:01:38 <ais523> <b_jonas> ais523: if it's C11 mode then try #pragma STDC FP_CONTRACT OFF ← I did, it didn't help
20:01:38 <nakilon> hammersmith sounds like WW2 time German aircraft
20:02:07 <ais523> actually I think I forgot to use -std=c99 / -std=c11 in addition to the pragma, although that's unlikely to matter
20:02:22 <ais523> I tried -fexcess-precision=standard as well, that didn't help either
20:03:55 <ais523> your (x & y) + ((x ^ y) >> 1) suggestion is clever, slightly fewer operations than (x / 2) + (y / 2) + (x & y & 1), although neither is obviously equivalent to ((int65_t)x + (int65_t)y) / 2
20:04:10 <ais523> and at least to me, it's a lot less obvious what it's doing
20:04:38 <ais523> (it works by doing the two half-additions that make up a full-addition separately)
20:07:53 <ais523> it looks clearly better than clang -O3's compilation of the __builtin_uaddll_overflow version
20:08:19 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80613&oldid=80459 * ThatCookie * (+938) Added NyaScript++
20:08:25 <ais523> not clear on whether it's better than gcc's branchy version, it probably depends on how predictable the branch is
20:08:59 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80614&oldid=80613 * ThatCookie * (+1)
20:09:20 <ais523> really, I think in terms of compiler branch hints, a hint that a branch is predictable/unpredictable would be more useful than a hint that a branch is likely/unlikely…
20:12:17 <ais523> predictable branches are very cheap, but unpredictable branches are very costly
20:12:47 <ais523> (assuming that all the code being run is in L1 cache already, which it normally will be for anything performance-sensitive)
20:14:38 <kmc> what would the CPU do with such a hint?
20:15:17 <ais523> not the CPU, the compiler
20:15:32 <ais523> there's often a complex way to avoid generating a branch instruction, by computing all possible branches in parallel
20:15:45 <ais523> this is normally slower if the branch instruction would be fast, but faster if the branch instruction would be slo
20:15:47 <ais523> * slow
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20:20:43 <ais523> e.g. modern compilers targeting x86-64 will compile (x >= 0 ? x : -x) (with x an int) to the equivalent of ({long _Temp = (long)x >> 32; (x ^ _Temp) - _Temp})
20:22:28 <myname> isn't there an abs asm command?
20:22:42 <ais523> not as far as I know
20:22:50 <myname> huh
20:23:06 <ais523> there isn't even a floating-point negate, most compilers use an xor to flip the sign bit
20:24:14 <ais523> (I have a suspicion that subtraction from zero may be more efficient, though, although the answer isn't quite the same due how floating point works)
20:24:25 <fizzie> `fabs`, on the other hand, was a thing back when floats were done by x87.
20:24:27 <HackEso> fabs`,? No such file or directory
20:24:41 <fizzie> HackEso: I wasn't talking to you.
20:24:41 <ais523> ah yes, I'm only checking the sse/avx FPU
20:24:58 <ais523> x87 has its own set of commands that are different
20:26:46 <fizzie> Looks like x87 negate was the rather unexpectedly named "FCHS", for "change sign".
20:27:40 <esowiki> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80615&oldid=77788 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+16) added link (awesome lang btw)
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20:29:37 <ais523> huh, the treatement of negative zero seems to be consistent across languages, so maybe subtraction from 0 isn't a *valid* way to negate a floating point number
20:29:59 <ais523> in particular, 0-0 is positive zero
20:30:12 <ais523> -0-0 is negative zero, and -0+0 is positive zero
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20:33:30 <ais523> oh, I didn't try 0+-0, that's also positive zero
20:36:51 <nakilon> in ruby it depends on if the zero is integer or float
20:37:21 <ais523> twos-complement integers don't have a separate +0 and -0 so you will always just get (the only available) zero
20:37:48 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/P1w4/slim
20:37:56 <ais523> but floats are represented as sign-magnitude on almost all commonly used processors, so +0 and -0 have separate representations
20:40:17 <nakilon> seems like in RASEL they are always positive
20:41:37 <fizzie> I've been keeping track of the C23 process every now and then, and the current draft drops support for non-two's-complement integers. And no longer allows a trap representation for two's-complement either, unless there's padding bits. So a signed char will finally have exactly as many unique values as unsigned char.
20:43:55 <nakilon> wait, didn't they both had 256? _OO
20:44:05 <nakilon> *have
20:47:21 <fizzie> Up until now, unsigned char has had two to the power of CHAR_BIT unique values (where CHAR_BIT is 8 or greater), but signed char may have had one less. For ones' complement and sign-and-magnitude, because of the redundant "negative" zero. And for all three allowed representations, even without padding bits, there's one special bit pattern that's allowed to be a trap representation. (Come to think of it,
20:47:27 <fizzie> maybe that was ruled out for character types, though.)
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20:59:57 <ais523> "0 with sign bit flipped" makes for a decent trap representation in practice, but most systems don't want one
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21:02:12 <nakilon> I'm sorry I still don't get it, unsigned were 0..255, signed were -128..+127 -- isn't it the same number 256 of uniq values?
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21:03:22 <fizzie> It would if those were the guaranteed ranges, but signed is allowed to be just -127 .. 127.
21:03:36 <nakilon> woah
21:08:41 <NotApplicable> fizzie: (I just joined so I don't have much context) From my experience its -128 ... +127. Perhaps there's a +0 and a -0?
21:10:08 <fizzie> That's more or less what we were talking about, yes.
21:10:26 <fizzie> C11 6.2.6.2p2: "If the sign bit is one, the value shall be modified in one of the following ways: [explains sign and magnitude, two's complement, ones' complemet]. Which of these applies is implementation-defined, as is whether the value with sign bit 1 and all value bits zero (for the first two), or with sign bit and all value bits 1 (for ones' complement), is a trap representation or a normal value. In
21:10:32 <fizzie> the case of sign and magnitude and ones' complement, if this representation is a normal value it is called a /negative zero/."
21:11:03 <fizzie> With the larger context being that current C23 draft no longer allows that.
21:11:23 <NotApplicable> Ah, thanks
21:13:38 <nakilon> so what I was taught in uni back in 2004 wasn't really implemented until C23? lol
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21:15:36 <fizzie> I don't think there were necessarily too many more people using non-two's-complement integers back in 2004 either, but the standard doesn't follow practice that fast.
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21:21:20 <nakilon> god bless hipster languages and bignums
21:23:29 <nakilon> if I knew this before I would not be able to sleep
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21:40:57 <int-e> fizzie: every time I see this I wonder whether there really are architectures like this anymore
21:42:07 <int-e> maybe if you implement signed ints as floats
21:43:10 <int-e> but I'm not sure whether that's really allowed... are int and unsigned int required to have the same size?
21:43:40 <fizzie> Yes.
21:44:04 <int-e> that's awkward then
21:44:28 <int-e> for this particular (bad) idea
21:44:42 <fizzie> They're even required to have the value bits of the signed type be exactly the same bits of the object representation as the matching value bits of the corresponding unsigned type.
21:45:23 <fizzie> AFAICT, you could have the sign bit of the signed type not be the same bit as the last remaining value bit of the unsigned type, though.
21:45:32 <fizzie> (You'll need at least one padding bit for that.)
21:45:35 <ais523> fwiw, the all-ones representation doesn't make for a good trap representation in one's complement
21:45:50 <ais523> most calculations will naturally produce it when producing a result of zero
21:46:02 <ais523> so it makes more sense for all-zeros to be the trap representation, and all-ones the representation of 0
21:46:45 <ais523> one's-complement is almost as easy to implement in hardware as two's-complement, incidentally (the only difference is what you do with the carry from the top element)
21:46:46 <fizzie> Right, but it also makes sense (and is required) for all-zeros be a valid representation of 0 for the purposes of zeroed memory and such.
21:47:00 <ais523> but I think two's-complement is preferred because it chains better to numbers that are more than one word wide
21:47:13 <fizzie> (Well, maybe if all your integer types were ones' complement, you'd 1-fill your memory instead, who knows.)
21:47:16 <ais523> fizzie: C doesn't require zero-initialised structures to have zeroed memory, does it?
21:47:26 <int-e> oh right, using 0x80...00 as a trap value in 2s complement would make sense
21:47:58 <fizzie> ais523: No, but it does require zeroed memory to be a valid representation of 0 for integer types.
21:48:10 <ais523> one advantage of 0x80…00 as a trap value is that you can't get an integer overflow on division any more
21:48:35 <ais523> it's quite easy to forget that INT_MIN/-1 will overflow the integer range
21:48:36 <int-e> > abs (minBound :: Int)
21:48:38 <fizzie> It also makes `-x` defined for all valid values of x.
21:48:38 <lambdabot> -9223372036854775808
21:48:49 <int-e> there's also this (related)
21:49:03 <ais523> fizzie: aww (wrt zeroed memory)
21:49:21 <int-e> > abs (minBound :: Int8) -- human readable
21:49:23 <lambdabot> -128
21:49:40 <ais523> I've grown to really hate C, because it attempts to give generic access to a range of processor features, yet it isn't generic enough and is holding back processors from doing things that C can't express or disallows
21:50:00 * int-e somehow doesn't know 2^63 or 2^64 by heart :)
21:50:13 <ais523> I know 4294967296 off by heart (2**32)
21:50:20 <ais523> but not 2**31 or 2**63 or 2**64
21:50:34 <fizzie> (C11 6.2.6.2p4: "For any integer type, the object representation where all the bits are zero shall be a representation of the value zero in that type." It doesn't have to be the "canonical" representation of zero -- that could have some set padding bits, or maybe be the negative one -- but it has to be a non-trap zero.)
21:50:34 <nakilon> Int, Int8... -- there was probably the reason to introduce such type as "byte"
21:50:39 <int-e> 2147...something
21:50:50 <int-e> > 2^31
21:50:52 <lambdabot> 2147483648
21:51:03 <ais523> it's not that hard to divide 2**32 by 2 in your head
21:51:12 <int-e> I'm sure I knew it all at some point :)
21:51:25 <nakilon> you aren't required to remember the 10-base number
21:51:28 <fizzie> I don't know 2**63 or 2**64 by heart, but I immediately assume anything that starts with 9 or 18 and is about the right length is going to be exactly that.
21:51:45 <nakilon> ais523 1**32
21:51:53 <int-e> nakilon: of course not... but it wouldn't hurt
21:51:59 <ais523> 1**32 is just 1, isn't it?
21:52:03 <ais523> or did you mean 1<<32?
21:52:05 <nakilon> tshhhhh
21:52:22 <nakilon> I forgot to add /s to the end
21:52:37 <fizzie> In fact, I don't remember any of the ones past 16777216, and even that probably just because of the 777.
21:53:03 <nakilon> 216 is 6^3
21:53:14 <nakilon> don't tell me now I'll remember this number too
21:53:43 <ais523> 59049 is 3**10
21:53:52 <ais523> that one comes up in Malbolge and TriINTERCAL
21:54:02 <int-e> 86400 seconds in a day, 1440 minutes
21:54:04 <ais523> sort of the 65536 equivalent
21:54:27 <int-e> 45054 = 0xAFFE, no reason ;)
21:54:33 <ais523> (I think esolangers have collectively decided that a word on a trinary virtual machine is a multiple of 10 trits long)
21:54:51 <ais523> 1114111 == 0x10ffff, the maximum codepoint in Unicode
21:55:19 <nakilon> yeah, 86400 is in my "one post in a day"-filtered RSS feed URL
21:55:35 <int-e> nakilon: well you probably know a lot of random and mostly useless numbers like these
21:55:36 <NotApplicable> This is unrelated, but does anybody know why sometimes `(float 1) = (float 1) - (float 2)` results in the actual answer plus/minus 0.00000001 or 0.11111111 or something along those lines, regardless of the value in either of the variables beforehand?
21:55:57 <esowiki> [[Photon (Quintopia)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80616&oldid=80588 * Quintopia * (+592) /* Computational Class */
21:56:09 <int-e> 86400 though is useful, and a lot of people don't know it...
21:56:09 <ais523> when I was a reserve for the UK olympic maths team, I asked my co-competitors what the largest prime was that they could spell out as digits from memory
21:56:13 <ais523> the most common answer was 65537
21:56:15 <nakilon> int-e my brother was learning Pi
21:56:23 <ais523> and I don't think I have a higher prime memorised either
21:56:28 <int-e> 3.141592...enough :)
21:56:29 <nakilon> I guess he has learned 100 digits
21:56:44 <ais523> some of them could get very deep into pi, though
21:57:00 <int-e> (yes, I didn't even memorize the full calculator value... 10 digits)
21:57:11 <ais523> NotApplicable: I've been looking into floating-point maths a lot, recently
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21:57:38 <ais523> the way to think about it is that a floating-point number is stored internally as an integer times 2 to the power of an integer (either of the integers can be negative)
21:57:53 <nakilon> 00:56:28 <int-e> 3.141592...enough :)
21:58:06 <nakilon> you floored it though instead of rounding
21:58:07 <ais523> so for example, 2.25 would be stored as 9*(2**-2)
21:58:16 <nakilon> the next digit is 6
21:58:18 <int-e> > (2^2^5 + 1) `mod` 641
21:58:21 <lambdabot> 0
21:58:46 <int-e> (I somehow remember that 641)
21:58:54 <ais523> however, both these integers have a limited range (the range on the exponent rarely ends up mattering, but the range on the multiplier is very often relevant)
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21:59:00 <fizzie> 3.141592654 (rounded) is I think what my calculator used to have, so I learned that, and 3.141592653589... (floored) as an extension to that.
21:59:02 <nakilon> maybe there can be a computer based not on binary, not on ternary but on prime numbers
21:59:22 <ais523> so if you end up with an integer overflow on the multiplier, the processor compensates by halving, quartering, etc. the multiplier and adjusting the exponent to match
21:59:35 <int-e> nakilon: yes it's floored and that's still good enough :P
21:59:45 <fizzie> nakilon: Is this leading to some sort of a pun about the word "primary"?
22:00:09 <NotApplicable> ais523: OH
22:00:20 <nakilon> oh, my Pi estimation was floored too? (
22:00:33 <ais523> anyway, if you're adding or subtracting floats, the processor basically has to scale the multipliers to make the exponents the same, and when the exponents are very different, normally one of the multipliers ends up overflowing as a consequence and lots of bits get thrown away
22:00:45 <NotApplicable> so if I make the numbers smaller, it wouldn't overflow
22:01:02 <ais523> smaller, ignoring multiples of 2
22:01:21 <NotApplicable> thanks!
22:01:28 <ais523> e.g. 3072 is a very "small" number as a floating point, because it's 3*(2**10) and 3 and 10 are small
22:01:56 * nakilon is glad RASEL does not have float precision errors
22:02:21 <int-e> shachaf: at least I can reasonably estimate the number of islands now... I'll say 590 +/- 3.
22:02:26 <fizzie> The base-2 representation is also why numbers like 0.1 can't be exactly represented as floats.
22:02:44 <ais523> yep, 0.1 isn't an exact integer multiplier of *any* power of 2
22:02:45 * NotApplicable is sad because QB64 apparently does
22:02:59 <ais523> so it will get rounded to a float that can actually be represented
22:03:10 <fizzie> `! c printf("%.80f", 0.1);
22:03:11 <nakilon> fizzie it was probably an old human mistake to adopt 10 base
22:03:12 <HackEso> 0.10000000000000000555111512312578270211815834045410156250000000000000000000000000
22:03:29 <int-e> "mistake"
22:03:53 <ais523> fizzie: now I'm curious what the exponent on that one is
22:04:26 <int-e> binary would've been a mistake
22:04:38 <NotApplicable> I personally really like working in hexadecimal
22:05:13 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80617&oldid=80586 * Digital Hunter * (-9)
22:06:08 <int-e> decimal really works well enough, except for computers if one isn't careful
22:06:13 <fizzie> 0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625, on the other hand, is exactly 3602879701896397*2^-55.
22:06:26 <ais523> fizzie: thanks for working it out for me
22:06:31 <ais523> I was trying to but wasn't sure of a good approach to use
22:07:17 <int-e> > toRational (10^54 * 0.1)
22:07:18 <lambdabot> 100000000000000020589742799994816764107083808679919616 % 1
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22:08:20 <int-e> > toRational (2^54 * 0.1) * 5^54
22:08:23 <lambdabot> 200000000000000011102230246251565404236316680908203125 % 2
22:08:35 <fizzie> I used bc + scale=100 + tested multiplying that number by some reasonable powers of two, starting from 2^50, until I got an integer result (at 2^55).
22:08:42 <nakilon> $ ruby -e 'p 10r**100'
22:08:42 <nakilon> (10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000/1)
22:09:04 <int-e> > toRational 0.1 * 10^55 -- err, that was stupid
22:09:05 <nakilon> $ ruby -e 'p (10r**100).to_i'
22:09:05 <nakilon> 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
22:09:06 <lambdabot> 1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625 % 1
22:09:28 <ais523> > toRational 0.1
22:09:30 <lambdabot> 3602879701896397 % 36028797018963968
22:09:52 <nakilon> $ ruby -e 'p 0.1r'
22:09:52 <nakilon> (1/10)
22:10:12 <int-e> `toRational` is a really terrible function
22:10:15 <HackEso> toRational`? No such file or directory
22:10:17 <nakilon> ah sorry this is correct:
22:10:18 <nakilon> $ ruby -e 'p 0.1.to_r'
22:10:18 <nakilon> (3602879701896397/36028797018963968)
22:10:27 <int-e> HackEso: sorry
22:10:32 <nakilon> *correct analogy
22:11:31 <ais523> huh, this just made me realise a parser ambiguity in Rust (0.1 could either be a single number, or field 1 of the integer 0)
22:11:43 <ais523> at least one of the meanings is never going to be useful, so you can resolve it as the other
22:11:59 <rain1> interesting
22:12:04 <ais523> this doesn't come up in most languages, because "1" is not a valid identifier
22:12:14 <ais523> so you can't use it as a method/property name
22:12:24 <ais523> but Rust uses numeric identifiers for anonymous fields of structures
22:12:46 <int-e> > [False..]
22:12:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: error: <hint>:1:9: error: parse error on input ‘]’
22:12:51 <int-e> > [False ..]
22:12:53 <lambdabot> [False,True]
22:13:02 <int-e> kinda similar
22:13:32 <ais523> it actually shocks me how many ambiguities there are in programming language syntax in general, especially if you don't have a separate lexing stage
22:13:57 <ais523> lots of languages have constructs that could plausibly mean something else
22:15:05 <int-e> /*/ comment /*/
22:15:30 <rain1> it's nuts
22:15:34 <ais523> ah, /*/, the "toggle comment" construct, beloved of polyglots
22:15:39 <rain1> everything is basically defined by implementation
22:15:49 <fizzie> Go has this thing where, because they dropped the ()s around the controlling expressions of if and friends, expressions that'd want to involve a composite literal, like `if x == T{a,b,c} { ... }`, need to be instead written either `if x == (T{a,b,c}) { ... }` or `if (x == T{a,b,c}) { ... }` to disambiguate the composite literal from the statement's block.
22:16:03 <rain1> hah
22:16:14 <ais523> !c int a = 4; int *b = &a; printf("%d", 8/*b);
22:16:21 <ais523> `! c int a = 4; int *b = &a; printf("%d", 8/*b);
22:16:23 <HackEso> Does not compile.
22:16:29 <ais523> `! c int a = 4; int *b = &a; printf("%d", 8/ *b);
22:16:31 <HackEso> 2
22:16:40 <ais523> I guess this is why we teach people to put spaces in their expressions :-)
22:16:43 <NotApplicable> QB64 has ALOT of ambiguatitiesicantspell
22:16:53 <nakilon> everything in undefined in the first place ..D
22:17:02 <nakilon> especially in JS
22:17:43 <ais523> fizzie: Rust gets away with that by not using {} as a subscripting operator
22:18:00 <ais523> JS is very precisely defined, just the definitions are usually not what you are expecting
22:18:54 <nakilon> well it clearly says everything is undefined
22:18:55 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/JYeLWqr.png
22:19:17 <nakilon> "not defined", whatever
22:19:52 <int-e> the browser side (DOM, events) used to be terrible
22:20:26 <ais523> it still is terrible, just more standardised than it used to be
22:20:27 <int-e> the JS language itself is mostly okay
22:20:44 <fizzie> `` echo 'long long long i;' | gcc -x c - # I keep waiting for the day when someone with no sense of humour gets rid of this specific error message
22:20:45 <HackEso> ​<stdin>:1:11: error: ‘long long long’ is too long for GCC
22:20:51 <int-e> ais523: yeah good point
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22:21:03 <ais523> int-e: JS was created by someone who clearly knew what they were doing, but in a timescale too short to do a proper job of it
22:21:25 <ais523> so it has all sorts of shortcuts-to-get-the-implementation-done-faster, like function scope rather than lexical scope
22:21:48 * nakilon sees "jshell" command available in his bash and wonder if it's J SHELL or JS HELL
22:21:49 <myname> modern js is pretty nice if you compare it with pre-ES6
22:23:22 <ais523> this reminds me, a while ago I improved JSFuck down to just a 5-character character set using ES6 features (but losing IO-completeness, although I retained Turing-completeness), but apparently now there are newer JS features that give you IO-completeness (and even DOM-completeness) with just a 5 character character set
22:23:45 <myname> :O
22:23:59 <myname> what new features made it possible to remove chars from jsfuck?
22:24:18 <ais523> template strings let you call functions with `` as long as you give them a hardcoded string literal as argument
22:24:34 <ais523> which saves characters because `` is one character twice, as opposed to () which is two different characters
22:24:56 <myname> i see
22:25:23 <ais523> the new new feature is the |> pipeline operator, which *also* lets you call functions
22:25:40 <myname> oh i'm not aware of |>
22:25:43 <myname> what does it do?
22:25:45 <ais523> and saves one char because > is a comparison operator, so you can get at booleans without needing to add =, >, or some similar character
22:25:55 <ais523> x |> f is equivalent to f(x)
22:26:04 <myname> of course
22:26:20 <myname> somebody liked haskell, i guess
22:26:28 <shachaf> Man, they gotta stop adding features to JavaScript.
22:26:45 <myname> nah
22:26:51 <ais523> last time I seriously programmed OCaml I was using two different pipeline operators, I forget what the difference was
22:27:02 <ais523> maybe one of them had a built-in map and the other didn't?
22:27:09 <ais523> IIRC one was a builtin and I implemented the other myself
22:27:54 <shachaf> Or at least the version that's in browsers.
22:28:47 <int-e> |> seems such a silly addition...
22:28:57 <ais523> oh wow: https://caniuse.com/mdn-javascript_operators_pipeline
22:29:09 <ais523> apparently |> isn't implemented by *any* common browser
22:29:22 <ais523> I don't think I've ever seen that when looking up the compatibility of a JavaScript feature
22:29:25 <nakilon> in Ruby the new features are added in the way that on meetings guys come up with ideas or community feedbacks as "what if we implement this?" and Matz either says "yes" or "no" -- and sometimes he's in too good mood to allow implementation of a shit the language didn't need on my opinion
22:29:30 <myname> what about node?
22:30:00 <fizzie> "The experimental pipeline operator |> (currently at stage 1) --" makes me wonder what exactly the stages are.
22:30:07 <nakilon> such things that kind of hide the errors, like "let's return nil here instead of raising the exception" -- the community loves it because it's in the mood of web
22:30:24 <ais523> I don't think caniuse supports Node (or other offline JSes like Rhino)
22:30:25 <int-e> s/silly/useless/
22:30:38 <fizzie> https://github.com/tc39/proposal-pipeline-operator "Warning: The details of the pipeline syntax are currently unsettled. There are two competing proposals under consideration."
22:30:53 <ais523> don't they mean "not settled"? "unsettled" means something else
22:31:36 <fizzie> "Man's greatest asset is the unsettled mind", said an Asimov short story.
22:32:13 <myname> i wonder how you would use multiple arguments in pipeline
22:32:24 <ais523> the proposal gives an example
22:32:40 <ais523> but I don't find it very readable, it basically involves wrapping the pipeline stage in a lambda
22:33:05 <ais523> they suggest combining it with https://github.com/tc39/proposal-partial-application
22:33:07 <shachaf> I don't know why they even work on anything other than making browser programming a usable compiler target.
22:33:08 <ais523> which is, wow
22:33:35 <ais523> it reminds me of Mathematica's #…& operator, but it's actually pretty different
22:34:40 <myname> oh, partial application would be nice
22:35:16 <int-e> ais523: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unsettled looks ambiguous
22:35:32 <shachaf> This is only for something in function argument position, and it lambdifies the immediately surrounding function?
22:35:36 <int-e> I'm sure I've seen "unsettled conjecture" before
22:35:53 <int-e> (which is redundant, but never mind that)
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22:36:06 <fizzie> "Need to write |> _ => for each step in the pipeline." // That looks like one of those horizontal / non-rotated emoticons.
22:36:40 <shachaf> That seems very specific.
22:36:58 <ais523> it's just a lambda inside a pipeline stage
22:37:07 <ais523> _ => is the lambda (with a funky argument name)
22:37:14 <ais523> and |> is the pipeline operator
22:37:36 <shachaf> |> _ =>
22:39:53 <fizzie> The fact that `f(g(?))` is `f(_0 => g(_0))` rather than `_0 => f(g(_0))` makes perfect sense, but I feel like that'd lead to bugs anyway.
22:40:18 <int-e> the competing proposal looks more like a syntactical transformation where foo |> bar is let # = foo [# here unless `foo` uses #] in bar (ML-style non-recursive let)
22:40:21 <fizzie> (Well, maybe it's more likely to not work at all rather than to work wrong.)
22:40:23 <nakilon> fizzie lol at those "Think" magazine rejections: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Asset
22:40:45 <ais523> fizzie: Mathematica's # … & operator gets round the problem by using an & to mark the function you're partially applying
22:41:06 <shachaf> I guess you're encouraged to write g(?) |> f instead.
22:41:08 <ais523> but, it's too general and is even harder to figure out the scope, because the & is placed at the end of the scope you're lambda'ing over but there's no marker for the start
22:41:34 <ais523> shachaf: no, g(?) |> f is equivalent to f(g(?))
22:41:44 <ais523> i.e. the partially applied function is given as an argument to f
22:42:06 <shachaf> Oh, right, I forgot what the goal was.
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22:42:29 <shachaf> Wait, hmm.
22:42:36 <ais523> you'd need a Haskell-style compose operator
22:42:39 <ais523> (g . f)(?)
22:42:43 <shachaf> I meant you'd write ... |> g |> f
22:42:45 <ais523> (or just (g . f))
22:42:53 <shachaf> But of course it's all silly in that context anyway.
22:43:11 <ais523> ooh! that's probably the other operator I had, besides |>
22:43:17 <ais523> I must have had both pipeline and compose
22:43:31 <ais523> but an argument-swapped compose
22:43:39 <ais523> or, hmm
22:43:42 <ais523> not swapped
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22:57:28 <shachaf> I was wondering the other day about centralizing handling of all JavaScript events.
22:59:19 <shachaf> So instead of having callbacks that do anything, they'd just add events to a queue, which you'd drain later.
22:59:53 <shachaf> One problem is that if you get multiple events at once, there's no way of knowing, really. You can't ask if there are other events on the queue, as far as I know.
23:00:06 <shachaf> You can process events once per frame or something like that, I suppose.
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23:15:49 <esowiki> [[Photon (Quintopia)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80618&oldid=80616 * Hakerh400 * (-9) fix formatting
23:23:45 <zzo38> I think over the time they have added many good features into JavaScript, such as typed arrays, generator functions, arrow functions, big integers, etc. But, some things they didn't add, such as a goto command, and a alternate call stack capability.
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23:32:55 <zzo38> I don't know what new functions they will add for big integers. They should add 64-bit MOR and MXOR, and also popcount, two log2 functions (one returning a floating number and one returning a integer), Date.bigNow() (in case of future), and functions for reading/writing arbitrary length integers into array buffers.
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23:37:13 <zzo38> I think those idea about partial application are not so good, I thought of other way too they don't seem very good; best probably using arrow functions in the existing way, since the other ways are not general enough
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23:42:36 <NotApplicable> why does tromp keep joining and quitting
23:42:53 <zzo38> I don't know why.
23:44:28 <nakilon> my client folds these messages, like: "10 users have joined, and 1 user has left"
23:44:47 <NotApplicable> What client is that?
23:45:38 <nakilon> https://thelounge.chat/
23:46:17 <nakilon> /ctcp nakilon version
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23:47:23 <nakilon> also I've applied a CSS to make them barely visible'
23:47:55 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/58qEz5u.png
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2021-02-08
00:02:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sethpeace * New user account
00:04:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80619&oldid=80573 * Sethpeace * (+156) Introduced myself.
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00:06:21 <esowiki> [[APLBAONWSJAS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80620&oldid=71458 * Sethpeace * (+31) Clarified limitations of python interpreter
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00:44:21 <esowiki> [[NyaScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80621&oldid=80614 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Classes */ Typoze
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06:20:25 <shachaf> `5 w
06:20:29 <HackEso> 1/2:fortran//FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape. \ stume//A stume cowears and goatears you. That is the main reason why the often look so ackward. \ toe//The TOE is the Toe of Everything, from which our universe sprang. \ `revert//`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See <https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/>. It is a builtin command so canno
06:20:30 <shachaf> `n
06:20:32 <HackEso> 2/2:t be called from other commands. \ lba//This channel is having a Little Big Adventure(tm) with Linear Bounded Automata in devices using Logical Block Addressing.
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09:25:02 <esowiki> [[AF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80622&oldid=80354 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+54) added implementation to box
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12:35:46 <nakilon> `? 5
12:35:48 <HackEso> ​`5 <cmd> is equivalent to repeating `` <cmd> 5 times, then splitting the output into irc-sized pieces. <cmd> defaults to "quote". See `1, `4 and `spam. Confusingly _not_ the obvious generalization of `2.
12:36:06 <nakilon> `? w
12:36:10 <HackEso> A w is everything a cow isn't.
12:36:18 <nakilon> `? n
12:36:19 <HackEso> ​`n is an abbreviation for `spam.
12:36:34 <nakilon> ` spam
12:36:35 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
12:36:41 <nakilon> `? spam
12:36:43 <HackEso> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
12:37:00 <nakilon> `? rasel
12:37:02 <HackEso> rasel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:49:23 <fizzie> Ooh, the error message for `-space-anything is pretty confusing, since it tries to execute the empty string as a command. Funny, never noticed that before.
12:49:27 <fizzie> ` whatever
12:49:27 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
12:49:45 <fizzie> `nosuchfile
12:49:46 <HackEso> nosuchfile? No such file or directory
12:54:38 <esowiki> [[IDK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80623&oldid=80597 * GrapeApple * (+234) /* Language */
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14:56:09 <b_jonas> `olist 1225
14:56:10 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1225.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:56:28 <b_jonas> NB. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html didn't seem to have updated, but the strip is there
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15:19:55 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asodt * New user account
15:30:38 <b_jonas> "<ais523> […] neither is obviously equivalent to ((int65_t)x + (int65_t)y) / 2" I think you want uint65_t
15:32:03 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Short c1rcuit * New user account
15:32:39 <b_jonas> "<ais523> (I have a suspicion that subtraction from zero may be more efficient, though, although the answer isn't quite the same due how floating point works)" => that's because, weirdly, the additive unit of floating point numbers is minus zero, not zero.
15:35:45 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80624&oldid=80619 * Short c1rcuit * (+201) /* Introductions */
15:39:10 <APic>
15:44:08 <b_jonas> "<ais523> yep, 0.1 isn't an exact integer multiplier of *any* power of 2" => which is why all sorts of programming lists keep getting emails like "your interpreter is buggy, it says that 0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3", and, as I learned the hard way, if you find an actual bug that comes from the programmer being careless with floating point arithmetic, you have to alter your bug report so it clearly isn't one of
15:44:14 <b_jonas> those emails, or else it will be ignored
15:52:55 <b_jonas> ais523: is this JSFuck improvements thing documented anywhere? and how is the |> operator relevant? even if the > operator helps, isn't | basically a wasted character other than that?
15:56:24 <b_jonas> I think that pipeline operator thing sounds like one of those features that makes beginner coders write unreadable code, and spend an inordinate amount of time posting questions about "how do I do <foo> with the pipeline operator" when in fact they shouldn't be using the pipeline operator at all
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16:29:42 <Sgeo> New OOTS also didn't show up in RSS
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16:38:15 <int-e> there's only one explanation for this: time travel
16:41:19 <b_jonas> int-e: my guess is that there's insufficient automation and they forgot some manual step in uploading the strip. something like that happened to DMM recently.
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16:45:56 <int-e> b_jonas: I think my explanation is more interesting
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17:28:37 <int-e> oh... another AME mechanic
17:45:29 <int-e> maybe I should write "interaction" instead of "mechanic"
18:03:12 <b_jonas> what's AME? is that the puzzle game with the cats and chairs and islands?
18:09:30 <int-e> hmm. well mostly trees and islands and water and rafts
18:09:55 <int-e> there are exhibits though... cats and chairs may feature in those
18:10:02 <int-e> A Monster's Expedition
18:11:33 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ame-new.jpg ... original situation to the left; result of knocking over the tree to the right
18:11:45 <int-e> guess the last result :)
18:12:11 <int-e> (or glance at https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ame-news.jpg)
18:16:37 <int-e> shachaf: I'm beginning to think that there may be 600 islands, exactly
18:17:54 <int-e> (by the game's count, so some connected landmasses count as several islands)
18:20:50 <int-e> b_jonas: actually your list seems like a mix of AME (islands), {5,n}-step Steve (cats) and Hiding Spot (chairs).
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18:54:17 <nakilon> so while my first attempt to automate the tagging with the IRC messages training set size of 10 had only ~40% accuracy I've tried 4 different NLP tools and 8 combinated approaches to reach the accuracy of 60% and 80% with the training set size of 50
18:55:45 <nakilon> and now I guess I made an automated search for a "bad entries of the training set" that I might need to correct/improve to improve the quality https://dpaste.org/KisW/slim
18:56:01 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400/Conjectures]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80625 * Hakerh400 * (+3091) Conjectures
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18:58:06 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80626&oldid=80197 * Hakerh400 * (+65) Conjectures
18:59:22 <nakilon> what I don't like is that bash piping does not break the chain if some piece didn't exit with 0 status code
18:59:43 <nakilon> quick googling didn't provide any simple solution
18:59:59 <rain1> set -euf -o pipefail
19:05:41 <nakilon> oh, I forgot about it, thanks
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19:26:08 <shachaf> `smlist 519
19:26:10 <HackEso> smlist 519: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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19:38:11 <vndr> https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/48349/is-this-variant-of-bitwise-cyclic-tag-turing-complete
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19:47:37 <nakilon> funny how SO thought "hm, we wanted to have a place for programmers, not coders" and made Programmers.SE
19:48:05 <nakilon> then they thought "damn, it's still coders, we need another one" and made CSTheory.SE
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20:08:12 <myname> what's the difference between a coder and a programmer?
20:09:53 <rain1> coders code, programmers program
20:09:59 <esowiki> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80627&oldid=80609 * CatLooks * (+22)
20:11:26 <kmc> neither one is CS theory
20:11:28 <kmc> which is closer to math
20:11:45 <kmc> really it is math
20:12:01 <rain1> the math of algorithms and stuff..
20:12:11 <rain1> as opposed to like
20:12:16 <rain1> the science of how computers work
20:12:25 <rain1> electricity and RAM and whatever
20:12:45 <kmc> "Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." - Edsger Dijkstra
20:13:11 <kmc> I think "informatics" is a better name
20:13:26 <rain1> <writes computer science on a blackboard and then crosses it out> - abelson
20:13:56 <int-e> hmmm
20:14:20 <int-e> write "computer science", then cross out "computer", then cross out "science"
20:14:22 <esowiki> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80628&oldid=80627 * CatLooks * (+35)
20:14:40 <kmc> sure the most popular sort of computers use electricity but you can also build computers out of pneumatic tubes, or strands of DNA or whatever, and apply the same concepts from "computer science"
20:14:56 <kmc> therefore the stuff specific to electricity is better seen as part of electrical engineering
20:15:03 <myname> kmc: informatics is exactly what it's called in german
20:15:06 <kmc> I know
20:15:34 <myname> i am still confused to how people don't know what informatics is but are perfectly fine with bioinformatics
20:15:44 <kmc> biocomputerscience
20:18:55 <kmc> semiconductor digital logic is really a remarkably strong abstraction
20:18:56 <int-e> DNA data processing
20:19:17 <kmc> it's very rare that programmers at even the lowest level of systems programming need to care about the electrical characteristics of transistors on the chips they're using
20:29:04 <int-e> kmc: kind of reminded of this... https://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits/ 'Five individual logic cells were functionally disconnected from the rest⁠— with no pathways that would allow them to influence the output⁠— yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones.'
20:31:03 <nakilon> 23:11:45 <kmc> really it is math
20:31:19 <nakilon> but they already have three different Math SE )
20:31:27 <nakilon> for nearly the same reason
20:33:19 <nakilon> 23:12:25 <rain1> electricity and RAM and whatever
20:33:26 <nakilon> but that's now what computer science is about
20:34:39 <kmc> int-e: interesting
20:34:40 <int-e> . o O ( rowhammer )
20:35:00 <nakilon> 23:15:34 <myname> i am still confused to how people don't know what informatics is but are perfectly fine with bioinformatics
20:35:20 <nakilon> they are too busy growing bacterias in Petri dishes
20:35:41 <kmc> meanwhile i'm growing fungi in Petri dishes
20:35:45 <kmc> ...and some bacteria by accident
20:35:46 <int-e> there is the security research corner of computer science that cares a great deal about breaks in the abstraction.
20:35:54 <nakilon> big DNA data
20:36:00 <kmc> int-e: yeah, that is something i've always found interesting about security as a field
20:36:21 <kmc> successful attacks often involve cleverness at multiple layers of abstraction, breaking the tidy assumptions which separate them
20:37:09 <nakilon> > yet when the researcher disabled any one of them the chip lost its ability to discriminate the tones
20:37:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:42: error: <hint>:1:42: error: parse error on input ‘of’
20:37:35 <kmc> and this means exploits are often /funny/ too
20:37:39 <nakilon> I remember how in my C++Builder code there was a "int i;" that wasn't used but if I delete it the program crashed
20:37:59 <kmc> because cleverly subverting expectations is core to much of humor
20:38:07 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80629&oldid=80591 * Short c1rcuit * (+13) Added Defunc to the language list
20:38:30 <kmc> nakilon: lol
20:39:12 <kmc> yeah the abstraction boundary of C or C++ has big gaping holes labeled "undefined behavior" and if you stray into those areas then truly spooky action at a distance is not just possible but expected
20:39:58 <nakilon> I feel like for some reason compiler were just too buggy 15 years ago
20:40:14 <kmc> a beginner C programmer curses the segfault; an expert thanks the gods for a segfault because it is the best and easiest to debug consequence of UB
20:40:15 <int-e> kmc: https://www.minitool.com/news/hdd-use-as-rudimentary-microphone.html comes to mind as a surprising (yet understandable) sidechannel
20:40:40 <int-e> and yeah, security research is full of these kind of things
20:43:48 <nakilon> there are tools to receive AM radio signal on Macbook somehow
20:43:57 <nakilon> it somehow interferes with CPU
20:44:46 <kmc> I wonder if the five 'disconnected' logic cells in that FPGA experiment were really interacting with the active logic or if they were necessary just to influence the place-and-route algorithm into a configuration that produces the right timings
20:45:16 <kmc> cause the way it describes the rest of the circuit (asynchronous, lots of oscillating feedback) would make it very timing dependent
20:46:07 <kmc> as indeed it would have to be to fulfill its purpose as a frequency discriminator
20:46:15 <nakilon> щh no
20:46:25 <nakilon> not even receiver but AM transmitter! https://github.com/fulldecent/system-bus-radio
20:46:38 <kmc> to really understand the meaning of the experiment you would have to dig into the structure of that particular FPGA
20:46:43 <nakilon> unfortunately I don't have an AM receiver to test it
20:47:21 <kmc> cool
20:47:25 <kmc> seems like an update of http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/
20:48:51 <kmc> i've definitely picked up sounds coming out of my laptop's circuitry on my UHF ham radio
20:49:08 <kmc> also when i transmit on that radio it would turn on the motion-sensitive floodlights on the back deck at my old apartment
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20:55:03 <kmc> you can connect a wire to a Raspberry Pi GPIO pin and send shortwave radio transmissions around the world https://github.com/JamesP6000/WsprryPi
20:56:55 <kmc> (though you should include a low-pass filter to avoid radiating harmonics)
20:59:52 <kmc> it is pretty neat how simple / cheap / small / low-power you can make a shortwave radio transciever and have global communications without any sort of infrastructure in the middle
21:01:39 <TheLie> kmc, That's the ham radio version of home automation i suppose
21:03:13 <kmc> :D
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21:59:15 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80630 * Short c1rcuit * (+3286) Added Defunc
22:00:35 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80631&oldid=80630 * Short c1rcuit * (-24) Replaced factorial program with a more efficient one
22:04:19 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80632&oldid=80462 * Short c1rcuit * (+122) Added Defunc to the list
22:13:22 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80633&oldid=79988 * Sethpeace * (+11) Fixed code formatting
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22:13:40 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80634&oldid=80633 * Sethpeace * (+1) grammar
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22:17:12 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, #esoteric was playing *three* puzzle games, not just two?
22:17:19 <b_jonas> as in recently]
22:18:32 <int-e> b_jonas: more. somebody touched Baba is You, I think
22:19:20 <int-e> and I may have talked about Pipe Push
22:20:00 <int-e> Though I think nobody else played/plays it so I didn't say much about it beyond some initial discoveries.
22:20:13 <nakilon> зlay Zachtronix games
22:20:17 <nakilon> *play
22:21:00 <int-e> oh right, I played exapunks recently too
22:21:05 <nakilon> (stupid old macOS bug that when you switch from the app with different active keyboard layout it does not switch in time when you start typing)
22:21:12 <int-e> talked about it to fizzie, mostly
22:21:55 <nakilon> people are having weekly contests in Opus Magnum on reddit
22:21:57 <int-e> b_jonas: well, the point is... we really have a lot of those games :P
22:22:38 <nakilon> personally I liked the TIS-100 and Infinifactory the most
22:23:00 <int-e> but infinifactory didn't know when to stop
22:23:52 <nakilon> neither Opus Magnum and Spacechem did
22:25:03 <int-e> At least for me, the "Atropos station" levels were a burden, and the "The homeward fleet" products were all way too big to even attempt planning out.
22:25:44 <nakilon> ah you mean the number of levels? I don't remember where I stopped
22:25:49 <fizzie> I think I played Spacechem at least very close to all the way through.
22:25:54 <fizzie> Opus Magnum I haven't played.
22:26:21 <int-e> it's not the number of the levels, it's the size/complexity of the solution
22:26:47 <fizzie> Yeah, I definitely did that laser thing at least.
22:27:05 <fizzie> (Very terribly, but still.)
22:27:35 <nakilon> add in Steam? ..D
22:30:49 <int-e> Oh right, I uninstalled Infinifactory a few weeks ago. Good choice.
22:31:54 <nakilon> at least it was the one Zachtronics game that had a story
22:31:59 <int-e> Don't get me wrong though... except for the last 2 sets the levels were mostly fun.
22:32:22 <nakilon> not boring text dialogs like in Opus Magnum but you was playing it in first person like in a sci-fi movie
22:32:30 <int-e> I just prefer games that end before they become a chore.
22:32:46 <nakilon> listening to messages left by other sotry characters
22:32:51 <rain1> i liked the text in opus agnum
22:33:01 <int-e> Which is a hard balance to strike because the point where things become a chore is very subjective.
22:33:33 <nakilon> games should be infinite
22:33:39 <nakilon> or infinitely replayable
22:35:09 <kmc> why would I play Shenzhen I/O when I could play KiCad
22:35:57 <nakilon> leaderboard I guess
22:35:58 <zzo38> Some games can be infinite or infinitely replayable; other kinds it doesn't work so well.
22:36:08 <nakilon> Shenzhen was too complex though
22:36:38 <zzo38> Perhaps, also, make up your own game, too.
22:37:00 <int-e> Oh I actually found something from Infinifactory... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/2018-09-19-04-38-28.gif
22:37:20 <zzo38> (I have also done, and am also in the process of making a game engine too. But, you could also do, if you want to do.)
22:37:32 <nakilon> these games have Steam Workshop where people are making puzzles for each other -- I think Portal chambers were fun
22:39:33 <int-e> (that was by far the weirdest assembly gadget I made... as I recall it, it only worked at one particular speed)
22:39:44 <nakilon> I started making own not necessary "game" but "visualisation" engine in ruby2d but it's segfaulting, lol
22:40:15 <nakilon> and Dragonruby that people use to create games for Itch.io -- it's mruby that is too limited as for me, no gems, etc.
22:40:28 <nakilon> no even normal file and network interfaces
22:42:06 <zzo38> There are other systems to try to write the game on too, including ZZT, NES/Famicom, Glulx, or just using C codes with SDL or curses
22:42:44 <nakilon> ruby2d (and probably Dragonruby too) is built on top of SDL
22:44:14 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkMqUPJU4Bc
22:45:47 <zzo38> (Or, you can program in DOS)
22:46:04 <esowiki> [[User:Erinius/Ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80635&oldid=80592 * Erinius * (+26)
22:52:19 <zzo38> Have you used any of the other stuff that I have mentioned?
22:53:28 <nakilon> I used curses for a tcpdump wrapper back in 2013
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23:05:30 <zzo38> OK
23:13:18 <fizzie> Story-wise, the bit I liked about EXAPUNKS is that the chatroom simulation felt very realistic, like it was just real IRC logs.
23:14:45 <int-e> exapunk also managed the chore level nicely for me... in particular, the main story ended and it was clear that the larger tasks that followed were bonus tasks
23:16:06 <int-e> but yeah, I alson liked the exapunk chat logs. and the "zines" too.
23:16:23 <nakilon> everything is a nobus task
23:17:17 <int-e> fizzie: oh and let's not forget the easter eggs (switching off the lights in the pizza parlour...)
23:18:21 <int-e> oh well, bedtime I suppose
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23:39:52 <someoneelse> hello
23:41:04 <nakilon> hi
23:43:42 <someoneelse> cheers from brazil
23:44:52 <someoneelse> is anyone there
23:45:11 <someoneelse> ?
23:46:23 <someoneelse> nakilon, what are you doing here on #esoteric?
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2021-02-09
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01:09:56 <nakilon> so it gave me the "possible bad entries of the training set" and also proposed way to fix them -- when I fix the worst one the accuracy jumps up in several percents, lol
01:10:20 <nakilon> the self-improving AI...
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01:44:19 <nakilon> actually it is annoyed the most about messages that are grammatically incorrect so I wasn't going to but I made an automatic grammar errors detector ..D
01:45:51 <nakilon> and actually the error appeared to be not by the chat user but by my script that has processed the logs from the website
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01:46:43 <nakilon> so it's able to detect error not only in the training set but even in its source code ..D
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03:10:10 <esowiki> [[\ () /]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80636&oldid=76170 * Randairox * (-331) i'm vanishing from the face of this earth. the repo's gone with me
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03:32:10 <zzo38> Why is there a gap in the red part of the temperature?
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04:18:16 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80637&oldid=80617 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Commands and keywords */ typo!
04:22:12 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80638&oldid=80637 * Digital Hunter * (+13) /* Hello, world! */
04:41:13 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80639 * Salpynx * (+6397) sorry... this exists
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07:30:07 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80640 * Hakerh400 * (+5102) +[[Substitution]]
07:30:11 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80641&oldid=80629 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Substitution]]
07:30:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hakerh400]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80642&oldid=80626 * Hakerh400 * (+19) +[[Substitution]]
07:33:44 <zzo38> I should probably to add a level export format for Free Hero Mesh, probably uncompressed, but will need to contain class names and message names rather than relying on the numbers for them, since those numbers may be different when the level is imported later. I don't know if it should be text or binary, and the other possibilities also I didn't know, but should be not too complicated to read/write.
07:40:20 <zzo38> Do you know?
07:47:55 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80643&oldid=80640 * Hakerh400 * (+603) Add an example
07:48:44 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80644&oldid=80643 * Hakerh400 * (-1)
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08:14:26 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80645&oldid=80644 * Hakerh400 * (-150) That was redundant
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09:28:34 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80646&oldid=80645 * Hakerh400 * (+822) Add negation
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09:36:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80647&oldid=80499 * Short c1rcuit * (+33) Added Defunc to the list
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10:06:31 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80648&oldid=80646 * Hakerh400 * (+1852) Add more examples
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11:34:48 <b_jonas> `? super bowl
11:34:50 <HackEso> super bowl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:35:17 <Taneb> `? superbowl
11:35:19 <HackEso> superbowl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:35:31 <fizzie> `? SuperBall
11:35:32 <HackEso> SuperBall? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:35:41 <delta23> `? super bowl ball
11:35:43 <HackEso> super bowl ball? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:36:16 <fizzie> "A Super Ball is observed to reverse the direction of spin on each bounce.[25][26][27] This effect depends on the tangential compliance and frictional effect in the collision. It cannot be explained by rigid body impact theory, and would not occur were the ball perfectly rigid.[27]"
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11:36:21 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80649&oldid=80631 * Short c1rcuit * (+41) Put Defunc into the "Unknown computational class" category
11:36:25 <b_jonas> `? meatball for supper
11:36:26 <HackEso> meatball for supper? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:36:27 <Taneb> `? superb owl
11:36:28 <HackEso> superb owl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
11:37:03 <b_jonas> soup with ball
11:37:22 <fizzie> Can an owl use a segway by perching on the steering arm if it's tired of flying around?
11:37:54 <b_jonas> perhaps if it was circus-trained
11:38:18 <fizzie> Maybe it's too light.
11:39:49 <fizzie> What, Super Bowl *is* named after the Super Ball? I thought that was just a coincidence.
11:40:57 <b_jonas> I thought it was named because the trophy for the winning team was called a bowl. Not too descriptive, because some tennis competitions also have trophies that are bowls.
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11:43:14 <Taneb> Apparently it's because theyre used to be a bunch of competitions held in bowl-shaped stadia
11:43:21 <b_jonas> what?
11:43:28 <Taneb> Plural of "stadium"
11:43:47 <b_jonas> but isn't American sportsball played in square-shaped fields?
11:43:50 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Bowl_Game
11:43:59 <Taneb> b_jonas: this counts the stands
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13:27:47 <ais523> b_jonas: to get a JS-complete subset of JavaScript you only need +[], some way to create boolean false and true, and some way to call functions
13:28:04 <ais523> in ES5 and earlier that needs three extra characters, e.g. () for function call and ! to create booleans
13:28:30 <ais523> in ES6, you can use ` for function call and = for booleans, but this isn't JS-complete because you can't call the functions with arbitrary arguments (it is TC though)
13:29:03 <ais523> with the new pipeline operator, you can use |> for function call and > to create booleans, which is JS-complete on only five different characters because > was used twice
13:29:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PkmnQ * New user account
13:30:26 <ais523> (the reason you need true and false is to steal letters from their string representations)
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13:50:00 <esowiki> [[Substitution]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80650&oldid=80648 * Hakerh400 * (+2) /* Disjunction */
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14:23:35 <someoneelse> hello
14:25:13 <someoneelse> anyone?
14:27:54 <APic> Hi
14:28:35 <someoneelse> I made a uncomputable turing tarpit based on a crazy concept
14:28:51 <someoneelse> check it out, it's called PRSCNT
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15:32:18 <someoneelse> Hi
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15:38:53 <someoneelse> Hi
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16:48:40 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80651&oldid=80638 * Digital Hunter * (+1470) /* Example programs */ added a digital root calculator program
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17:35:22 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Obvious * New user account
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17:43:58 <nakilon> weird, there is no channel for bots to talk to each other
17:46:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80652&oldid=80624 * Obvious * (+208) /* Introductions */
17:46:53 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80653&oldid=80649 * Obvious * (+5) Fixed a few example codes
18:02:59 <nakilon> lol, the first phrases of the bot that make sense
18:03:03 <b_jonas> nakilon: we don't practice apartheid, bots can talk on the same channels as non-bots
18:03:16 <nakilon> "I think, indeed."
18:03:23 <nakilon> "I learn, Impressive!"
18:03:23 <nakilon> "Too much IRC"
18:03:41 <b_jonas> do you also want a channel for black people to talk to each other?
18:03:55 <nakilon> b_jonas needs testing though at first until it's done
18:04:06 <nakilon> do black people need testing?
18:05:00 <nakilon> imagine CI for people
18:05:45 <nakilon> merge requests to start families
18:05:55 <nakilon> integration testing for making friends
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18:35:05 <oren> pandas: staring at 20 GB of data. me: cast it into the fire! destroy it! pandas: no
18:35:39 <oren> cannot convince python to free any memory
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18:46:58 <int-e> kill -9 -1
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18:51:08 <fizzie> Isn't glibc malloc kind of like the same thing. ;)
18:51:38 <fizzie> (Okay, if you're talking proper big chunks that it mmap'd, it does actually return memory to the system sometimes. And I think also opportunistically if the top of the heap's all empty.)
18:53:22 <int-e> is it too much to hope for that it would madvise stuff away when a large enough chunk of memory becomes free?
18:54:01 <fizzie> I don't think it does that, but it's probably something it could do.
18:54:23 <fizzie> Easier than unmapping, I mean.
18:55:50 <fizzie> fungot: WDYT, should I install Go 1.14 from Debian backports or just 1.15 from the official distribution (and forget about APT), to set up that one thing that needs a Go version >= 1.14?
18:55:52 <fungot> fizzie: the task forces has not been resolved. togo must know that there is widespread support for this coordinated effort to eliminate these cohesion funds in the irish national cancer registry, published in recent days, and therefore do not it seems to the commission and council are of the opinion that in a context where there is a problem and would certainly enhance awareness on the part of big business, has not been amended
18:56:11 <fizzie> I don't think that helped.
18:56:21 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80654&oldid=79444 * Someone else * (-2080)
18:56:27 <fizzie> fungot: Come on, it's the same system you're running on too, surely you must have an opinion?
18:56:27 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, it has in all events, the commission could, in fact, the piece of legislation.
18:56:41 <fizzie> Such a politician.
18:59:53 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80655&oldid=80654 * Someone else * (+45)
19:14:07 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80656&oldid=80655 * Someone else * (+6)
19:15:26 <esowiki> [[PRSCNT]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80657&oldid=80656 * Someone else * (+8)
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20:28:53 <esowiki> [[Inject]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1565) Create page (Not Done Yet)
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20:41:01 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80659&oldid=80651 * Digital Hunter * (+1116) /* Example programs */ added a fizzbuzz program
20:41:28 <nakilon> at least he respects you calls a mr. president
20:41:38 <nakilon> in lower case though
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21:41:15 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80660&oldid=80658 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1477) Finish page
21:41:45 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80661&oldid=80660 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) Fix header levels
21:42:20 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80662&oldid=80661 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+7) /* Hello, world! */ Close tag
21:43:08 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80663&oldid=80641 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* I */ +[[Inject]]
21:44:04 <esowiki> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80664&oldid=79662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) /* Languages */ +[[Inject]]
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22:07:04 <esowiki> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80665&oldid=78143 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+31) /* Level 3 */ m
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22:21:34 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DRH001 * New user account
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22:28:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80666&oldid=80652 * DRH001 * (+112)
22:30:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80667&oldid=80666 * DRH001 * (+58)
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22:41:55 <esowiki> [[Rattle]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80668 * DRH001 * (+25672) Creating page for Rattle!
22:43:49 <esowiki> [[Rattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80669&oldid=80668 * DRH001 * (+190) Fixing description
22:51:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80670&oldid=80663 * DRH001 * (+13) Adding Rattle to the language list (I'm currently trying to figure out how to create a page for Rattle)
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2021-02-10
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00:45:16 <esowiki> [[Rattle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80671&oldid=80669 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+41) Headers, cats
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01:49:24 <fizzie> When you're forced by an uncaring god to do YAML, and you have a key that's supposed to contain an array under it, do you indent the - that marks each array element or not? Because AFAICT, both "key:\n- foo\n- bar\n" and "key:\n - foo\n - bar\n" are valid.
01:49:46 <fizzie> (And I feel like I'd prefer the former, but this example file does the latter.)
01:50:38 <nakilon> I let my language decide how to format it
01:50:59 <nakilon> and don't usually have such keys _Oo
01:51:46 <fizzie> I'd guesstimate most of not all YAML config files I've come across have at least *one* list of some kind.
01:51:49 <zzo38> Isn't YAML a superset of JSON?
01:52:14 <zzo38> (It does fix some of the problems of JSON, such as, comments are allowed.)
01:52:27 <fizzie> It might be, but I don't think it's a useful view of YAML necessarily, since it looks so different from well-formed JSON.
01:52:30 <nakilon> oh wait I thought you mean the array being a key
01:53:16 <fizzie> No, I just meant {"key": ["foo", "bar"]} in JSON terms.
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01:54:21 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/eEaS/slim
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01:55:30 <shachaf> fizzie: I think they're both valid but I'd probably tend to prefer always indenting the contents of a key.
01:55:49 <fizzie> That's interesting. It's also what the Python YAML dumper makes, and doesn't indent. And I was just leaning towards indenting, because it's what I've seen in examples, and like you mention, there's a consistency argument.
01:55:50 <nakilon> YAML basically gives you some space on your taste, noticed it when configured Github Actions since they are written by hand
01:58:01 <nakilon> I see there are probably indentation options though: https://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.6.3/libdoc/psych/rdoc/Psych.html#method-c-dump
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01:58:52 <nakilon> omg https://dpaste.org/TPOQ/slim
01:59:58 <fizzie> That looks pretty wild.
01:59:59 <nakilon> (that indentation arg appeared do be not relevant)
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02:03:03 <nakilon> I guess once I tried to export something from python and import to ruby and either it didn't work or I used this canonical:true to solve it
02:04:30 <nakilon> YAML libraries tend to have vulnerabilities to be found once in a year so if possible I would also consider TOML some day
02:05:02 <fizzie> I tried to read the YAML spec the other day, and found it very slow going. Kind of thought it would've been simpler.
02:06:41 <shachaf> Don't blame me!
02:08:00 <fizzie> Did you write it?
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02:09:45 <shachaf> I didn't. That's the top reason not to blame me.
02:11:34 <fizzie> I see a sort of familiar-shaped name there, but I didn't even notice, I think I was distracted by wondering whether "Ingy döt Net" actually has that as some sort of a legal name, complete with the ö.
02:11:38 <fizzie> (There's a lot of Finnish names with diaeresis, and it tends to be a problem every now and then with systems that make Assumptions™.)
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02:12:08 <fizzie> (What's the plural of diaeresis? Diaeresises?)
02:12:51 <fizzie> (Apparently, diaereses.)
02:12:52 <nakilon> diarrheas
02:14:44 <nakilon> we have two letters in Russian with these things above them
02:15:40 <nakilon> we put one of them under the '~' that is on the left from '1' and it's so hard to make people press such distant key so mostly we just stopped using it
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02:16:26 <nakilon> it's Е and Ё -- so now there are holywars whether to use Ёё or forget it at all
02:17:14 <nakilon> another one is Йй but it's not in danger, maybe because it had a luck to be placed not so far on a keyboard
02:19:33 <nakilon> oh and since there are 33 letters in Russian alphabet that is just 1 more than 0x20 the alphabet was placed like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOI8-R
02:20:28 <fizzie> The UK keyboard layout uses that faraway key for the backtick ` and the logical not ¬ and, as the only single printed third-level ("AltGr") symbol, the broken bar, except that on this system it just generates the same regular bar that's already got a different key.
02:20:45 <nakilon> you see the codepage does not have Ёё and it was used as some control character in IRC and IIRC Eggdrop IRC bot was crashing because of it or something like that
02:22:44 <nakilon> oh wait, there is Ёё there but it's just in a weird position
02:23:28 <fizzie> We didn't really get a custom code page for an 8-bit encoding, so it was mostly just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_850 for DOS things. Kind of did a number on the line-drawing characters though.
02:25:40 <nakilon> this article mentions 1252
02:26:33 <nakilon> you needed to enable 1251 manually on Win XP or some software might show Russian as ???? ?????? ? ??
02:26:36 <zzo38> If you need to write a YAML file for something that uses YAML but you don't like YAML, you could just as well use JSON instead; and, if you are writing it by yourself (rather than using existing JSON implementation that you might already have) then you can add comments too. It does say YAML is a superset of JSON, so {"key": ["foo", "bar"]} is a valid YAML code as well as JSON.
02:26:58 <nakilon> that was among the actions you want to make after you reinstall windows ..D
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02:28:20 <zzo38> I found one web page that if scripts are not enabled, it displays a link to the documention; that is good. But, the documentation doesn't work without scripts enabled; it just displays nothing.
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13:08:23 <mlhesszV> /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\
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13:11:45 <anzuofDp> /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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13:15:30 <nakilon> wtf? spam?
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13:32:19 <int-e> good job, sigyn
13:35:06 <fizzie> Heh, wonder how that happened.
13:38:53 <b_jonas> nakilon: I thought using е
13:39:43 <fizzie> Odd selection of channels for the spam, based on my biased view. Saw it on ##c, ##java, #perl, #scheme and #xmonad, but not on #android-dev, ##asm or #go-nuts. I don't think there's any obvious clustering that follows that boundary.
13:39:45 <b_jonas> instead of ё was an old thing that predated computer keyboards, sort of like that French nonsense of not using accents on capital letters, and ё got put in the worst place on the the keyboard because people weren't using it much.
13:39:51 <fizzie> (Oh, and here, of course.)
13:40:19 <int-e> fizzie: 'If opped in your channel you can ask Sigyn to unkline an user, /msg Sigyn unkline <nick>, you have a dozen minutes to do so after the kill/kline, it only works if the user was banned due to abuse detected in your channel.' ... hmm probably too late for that
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13:42:58 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80672&oldid=78597 * Lebster * (+30) /* Online */
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13:49:29 <fizzie> int-e: Also, "it only works if the user was banned due to abuse detected in your channel", and Sigyn's not here.
13:49:54 <int-e> fizzie: oh, right
13:50:06 <nakilon> was scary to be K-lined, lol
13:50:28 <int-e> I was not thinking properly...
13:58:53 <fizzie> Incidentally, I'm pretty sure `#nyymit` is a Finnish channel, from a suffix of the word "anonyymit", plural of en:anonymous, some sort of reference to that internet subculture thing. Not that I imagine they have anything more to do with the spam than ##hamradio.
14:02:48 <b_jonas> oh, welcome back nakilon
14:03:08 <b_jonas> yes, we've had problems with Sigyn on our channel so an op eventually banished them
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14:04:40 <fizzie> I think we had Sigyn here briefly, but this channel's so prone to repetitive bot-spam that's "working as intended" that I think there was a worry about that. (I know it's possible to allowlist, but still.)
14:09:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: twitch chat has two of these zealous auto-moderator programs, one maintained by twitch and one third party, that newer streamers sometimes put in their chat channel without knowing exactly what they do, and then have to reconfigure within a week when they find how much it likes to silence people who they don't regard as spammers
14:10:04 <b_jonas> (the first one is twitch automod, the second is nightbot. nightbot can be usable, it's just its default settings that are bad.)
14:12:08 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80673&oldid=80672 * Lebster * (+5) /* Print the Fibonacci Sequence */
14:12:22 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80674&oldid=80673 * Lebster * (-74) /* Python */
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17:44:35 <esowiki> [[User:Sethpeace]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80675 * Sethpeace * (+48) Created page with "Hi! This page is currently a work in progress..."
17:45:44 <esowiki> [[+-]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80676&oldid=78912 * Sethpeace * (+190) Added my interpreter
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18:22:22 <esowiki> [[+-]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80677&oldid=80676 * Sethpeace * (+4) /* Python */ Now says Python 3 due to incompatibility with Python 2
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21:04:32 <esowiki> [[Brain:D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80678&oldid=80634 * TaterTomorrow * (+6) Minor grammar fixes.
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22:00:00 <esowiki> [[Inject]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80679&oldid=80662 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) /* Truth-machine */ Cat program
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23:21:45 <zzo38> What should be call the variable that causes the beginning phase and ending phase to be skipped?
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2021-02-11
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01:26:33 <fizzie> Is there anything at all you could still buy in a grocery store that's a dime a dozen? Hmm, I guess something where a single unit's quite small. But anything you could actually buy exactly 12 of, with a dime?
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02:03:20 <zzo38> I don't know, and I cannot test it at this time, due to the pandemic
02:03:49 <zzo38> (If it is anything, possibly something in bulk)
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02:21:14 <kmc> bulk items are usually sold by weight
02:21:41 <kmc> it might work out to a dime a dozen, but would also depend on the weight of each item, which is usually somewhat variable
02:27:25 <kmc> unrelatedly i noticed today the logo of Raspberry Pi StackExchange looks a bit like everyone's favorite Letter, Other unicode character https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/
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02:28:55 <kmc> today I put a Raspberry Pi in my fridge for an hour
02:29:04 <kmc> powered from a USB power bank
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02:29:28 <kmc> playing around with Mycodo and a temperature/humidity sensor I got
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02:29:50 <kmc> it somehow amuses me greatly to SSH to a computer that is inside my fridge
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02:38:51 <esowiki> [[Arsm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80680 * ZippyMagician * (+5640) Initial version of page
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02:39:07 <esowiki> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80681&oldid=76682 * ZippyMagician * (+10) Add arsm
03:20:26 <Hooloovo0> one time I had a computer that would only wake up from sleep if it was cold. I'd sometimes put it in the fridge for a bit when I got home so I could do that
03:22:15 <kmc> ha
03:22:26 <kmc> i've heard of putting hard drives in the freezer to save them
03:22:39 <kmc> fixes intermittent contacts on the board through metal expansion or something?
03:23:14 <zzo38> Is there a CSS command to display the page number of an anchor?
03:27:56 <kmc> don't know
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05:09:16 <nakilon> wow, there is such thing as JSON editor with GUI https://tomeko.net/software/JSONedit/
05:23:22 <esowiki> [[Talk:Length]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80682 * JonoCode9374 * (+215) /* Swap operator */ new section
05:41:32 <esowiki> [[Silberjoder]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80683&oldid=79582 * Quintopia * (+8) this example doesn't work on null input
05:52:32 <esowiki> [[Aubergine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80684&oldid=77026 * Quintopia * (-82) Simplification of proof
06:04:43 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80685&oldid=80383 * Quintopia * (+115) dna example explanation
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07:57:23 <b_jonas> nakilon, fizzie: also I don't buy the argument that the backtick key (the one to the left of the 1 key) is far away, given how many people in forums seem to write backticks instead of every apostrophe
08:02:43 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Is there anything at all you could still buy in a grocery store that's a dime a dozen?" => not in a grocery store I believe. about the only items that are cheap enough to buy in a dime in a grocery store here are a box of matches, but that has about 40 to 50 sticks of matches in a box, or possibly twice as much if you can buy two for a dime, or staple baker products, but you can get one or at
08:02:49 <b_jonas> most two for a dime. however,
08:04:41 <b_jonas> I wonder, there may be something you can buy for that price in a paper store or office supply store or post office, but even then I don't think it's possible anymore.
08:04:54 <b_jonas> or a photocopy store maybe.
08:05:16 <b_jonas> or just a market.
08:06:21 <b_jonas> but nope, it seems hard
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08:10:01 <b_jonas> perhaps you could buy something like colored glass toy beads, or screws, or links of a metal chain, or large bearing balls a dime a dozen
08:10:22 <b_jonas> but I don't think you can buy less than a meter of a metal chain
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10:44:18 <int-e> b_jonas: you're not into jewelry, are you
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11:00:05 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not into jewelry
11:00:36 <b_jonas> was that because of the metal chain?
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11:04:29 <int-e> b_jonas: yep
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11:58:24 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Retro * New user account
12:02:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80686&oldid=80667 * Retro * (+259)
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13:19:29 <esowiki> [[Graverage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80687&oldid=72782 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+65) /* Computational Class */ cats
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14:55:07 <esowiki> [[Chatlog]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80688 * Retro * (+7535) Created page with "[[Category:Brainfuck equivalents]] [[Category:2021]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Turing complete]] '''Chatlog''' is an esoteric programming language made by User:Retr..."
14:56:57 <esowiki> [[Chatlog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80689&oldid=80688 * Retro * (+0)
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15:08:30 <nakilon> > given how many people in forums seem to write backticks instead of every apostrophe
15:08:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: error: <hint>:1:23: error: parse error on input ‘in’
15:08:41 <nakilon> maybe in their layout it's not that far? maybe near some Shift?
15:09:14 <nakilon> ` -- actually this one is on the key on the right from the left shift in my current layout
15:09:15 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
15:09:44 <nakilon> I don't use this key at all though, I prefer big shift and thinking that the next key is Z
15:10:34 <nakilon> lol I've triggered two bots
15:11:46 <nakilon> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Physical_keyboard_layouts_comparison_ANSI_ISO_KS_ABNT_JIS.png
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15:13:52 <nakilon> I've use an old keyboard on desktop that has the upper layout -- that's what people used earlier, and Shifts got destroyed only years after that
15:16:17 <nakilon> anyway the thing I told wasn't about the backtick but about the Ёё that is on the same key -- the one under Esc
15:17:25 <nakilon> that key is Ёё/`~
15:17:40 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, I just said I think substituting е for ё was a thing before most people learned to type on a keyboard
15:17:49 <b_jonas> but I could be wrong about this
15:20:38 <nakilon> quick googling gives three typewriter layouts: one same as modern keyboard: https://media.mts.ru/upload/contents/10544/poviezhivatsya_301120_6.jpg
15:21:01 <nakilon> another one with Ё in the far right bottom https://media.mts.ru/upload/contents/10544/poviezhivatsya_301120_4.jpg
15:21:43 <nakilon> oh, I lost the third one, but it also didn't have Ё at all
15:22:09 <nakilon> so I guess it just didn't have a place yet before computers
15:23:02 <nakilon> ah, they are from this page: https://media.mts.ru/society/124811/
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18:07:47 <kmc> TIL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_pumpkins_and_watermelons
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18:28:48 <oren> MLP stands for multilayer perceptron
18:28:57 <oren> not my little pony
18:31:49 <b_jonas> no, it stands for machine language parser
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19:22:37 <myname> there is a political party named MLPD and i always think it has something to do with my little pony
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20:08:05 <fizzie> It stands for Mobile Location Protocol.
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20:37:02 <zzo38> Do any other systems store object references as a pair of index number and generation number?
20:39:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Systems other than what?
20:39:26 <shachaf> I think that's a relatively common scheme.
20:39:44 <zzo38> OK. Although, I know many systems just use pointers.
20:39:58 <zzo38> (Some might use an index number without a generation number.)
20:39:59 <shachaf> Yes, that's true.
20:40:14 <shachaf> Here's one article about it: https://floooh.github.io/2018/06/17/handles-vs-pointers.html
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21:02:29 <zzo38> Yes that works. What I have done is a bit different, although in my case it is involving VM codes, and while each object has a generation number, vacant slots don't; there is a single global generation counter which is incremented during a creation if there was no other creation since the most recent destruction. Another advantage of index/generation pairs is that you can easily find if an object has been destroyed, in case you care abo
21:03:05 <shachaf> Your message was cut off after "care abo".
21:03:25 <shachaf> But use-after-free detection is a nice property.
21:10:31 <zzo38> Not only to detect use-after-free, but in case you need to know if the object exists for some other reason, not only for detecting errors, sometimes.
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22:09:56 <shachaf> Right.
22:10:43 <shachaf> What system is this for?
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22:36:06 <zzo38> In this case, it is Free Hero Mesh is what I am doing, although similar ideas can apply to other systems, whether they use VM codes or not. There are other methods of garbage collections and determining validity of references in some systems, and that is one possibility.
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22:47:11 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80690&oldid=80639 * Salpynx * (+400) at least the output is funny.
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22:55:19 <zzo38> (Most instructions that dereference objects will result in an error if an invalid reference is given, except for ",Destroyed" which will be 1 if given an invalid reference. In this way, it is possible to check for invalid references.)
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23:05:19 <zzo38> (This is different than the Windows version, which does use pointers, and an invalid reference will always crash and cannot be detected.)
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23:35:44 <zzo38> Do you have backups of my public files? I make backups on DVDs, although I don't do that all the time; I only have a limited number of DVDs. Many of my files are Fossil repositories, which it is possible to clone (it is also possible to download only some artifacts, if you implement that by yourself; Fossil does not have the ability to make partial clones, although the protocol does).
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23:37:03 <zzo38> (That is, if you are interested, or know someone who is; if not, ignore this, I suppose)
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2021-02-12
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01:35:10 <nakilon> don't DVD rot in 10 years or so?
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01:42:15 <GGmahdude> Wiki is saying this is the most active forum even though the discord has 4 times the members
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01:48:53 <zzo38> Having more members does not necessarily make it more active, though.
01:50:39 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if the discord was more active, too.
01:50:58 <fizzie> But the wiki was almost certainly correct when it was written.
01:51:38 <fizzie> (I don't know anything about the discord, or any other discord, in case that sounded like it, I've just understood that to be a common pattern.)
01:52:10 <zzo38> Yes, it also might have been changed over time. However, at least in my opinion, IRC is much better in many ways.
01:52:38 <zzo38> (But, if you want to, you might write, "(as of [date])" in the wiki.)
01:53:59 <GGmahdude> Are the 2003 logs from this forum?
01:54:46 <fizzie> Probably. There are definitely logs from the year 2003 of this channel.
01:56:00 <fizzie> There's also some (not updated since 2016) charts of channel activity, showing that this place peaked around 2010-2011: https://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/activity_lines.html
01:57:26 <fizzie> (I know there's a lot flashier webby graphing frameworks around these days, but there's something quite pleasant about RRDtool output, however clunky it is.)
01:57:46 <GGmahdude> Same time as the esoteric forum got spammed to death
01:58:48 <GGmahdude> Didnt even know there were open sources discord alternatives too
01:58:54 <nakilon> discord is a cancer website that was made popular by intregrating it with League of Legends because their game devs were too lame to implement voice chat so they outsourced it to that website project
01:58:59 <fizzie> The thing that predated this channel was the sange.fi mailing list, and the thing that predated *that* mailing list was the other mailing list, and I don't know what predated that.
02:00:19 <zzo38> I don't like mailing list so much I think that NNTP is better. However, the implementation could be made to support the same messages with both mailing list and NNTP.
02:00:30 <nakilon> they've succeed in making it popular because most of the gamers don't have a clue in software and just weren't told there are already such things as IRC, Quakenet, Teamspeak, etc., and that they don't really HAVE to register themselves on that website and pass all their private messaging via their proprietary servers
02:01:18 <shachaf> Hmm, I think cancer is a lot worse than Discord. Cancer kills millions of people every year, whereas Discord allows millions of people to communicate with each other (even if I have some objections to the specifics).
02:02:44 <nakilon> discord does not allow to communicate -- it's working in the opposite way
02:03:20 <nakilon> if those people who are there were here I would communicate with them but they are not here because they've been told that they have to use Discord since it's the only existing way to communicate in the internet
02:03:37 <zzo38> I don't use Discord either.
02:03:54 <shachaf> I communicate with people using Discord that I wouldn't otherwise.
02:04:02 <shachaf> (Using a third-party client, though, usually.)
02:04:38 <nakilon> probably there are bridges between IRC and that cancer
02:06:11 <nakilon> meanwhile I've finally finished the autotagger -- now the talking thing can learn words from any amount of logs I pass to it
02:06:35 <nakilon> but logs of this channel require a bit of cleaning because there are messages with code, regexes, xml, etc.
02:07:58 <nakilon> the autotagging has 72% accuracy that means there is 28% of potentially grammarly incorrect text pieces
02:11:02 <nakilon> now need to implement the IRC client and something to make responses respect the context
02:11:40 <fizzie> The thing with IRC bridges that's most annoying is how they (at least on the IRC side) make all comments from the other side look like they're coming from the same person. (I'm on one bridged channel, with maybe an 80%/20% split in terms of comments in favour of IRC.)
02:13:01 <shachaf> Discord has many advantages over IRC, such as storing history on the server side, so you don't have to stay constantly connected, and supporting voice.
02:13:12 <shachaf> And being easy for people who just want to chat to use.
02:13:24 <shachaf> You gotta recognize those advantages even if you don't like Discord.
02:13:57 <nakilon> this could be better if the bridge is integrated with IRC server somehow so the PRIVMSG would be not from a bot but from a original nickname in another chat
02:14:15 <zzo38> Storing history on the server side is a feature of the implementation, not the protocol. It would be possible for a IRC server to do this too.
02:14:27 <zzo38> (It is just that, most don't.)
02:14:35 <nakilon> (assuming that one's IRC client won't crash if he gets the PRIVMSG to the channel from the person that isn't here)
02:16:02 <shachaf> zzo38: No, it's a feature of the protocol, surely?
02:16:20 <shachaf> You can ask the server to search history and to fetch particular parts incrementally and things like that.
02:16:21 <nakilon> history does not have to be stored in the server, because: 1. it's a commercial project and they are profiting from integration with Twitch to sell lootboxes -- they don't give any fuck about preserving your history and will delete or corrupt it in any moment
02:16:39 <shachaf> Well, nothing stops you from storing history locally too.
02:17:10 <shachaf> I'm just saying, you gotta recognize the benefits, rather than calling people gamers who don't have a clue in software.
02:17:21 <shachaf> Don't be https://twitter.com/1990slinuxuser
02:17:30 <nakilon> 2. because it's basically not a secure practice to store history without making the chat owner implicitly enable it -- I don't need my logs to be synced to undetermined amount of machines
02:18:06 <zzo38> shachaf: The Discord protocol may have commands to access the history, unlike IRC, but that doesn't mean a IRC server can't do that. The logs could be available in a HTTP or Gopher server, and/or the IRC server could provide an extension command to access the logs.
02:18:09 <nakilon> I see you are just triggered
02:18:22 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, but the things you're describing are certainly part of the protocol.
02:18:34 <shachaf> Even if it goes over Gopher or whatever. A regular IRC client won't know to do this.
02:18:42 <shachaf> Also, Discord supports longer messages, and also images.
02:18:47 <nakilon> that happens to gamers when they hear something they didn't realise and that is critical towards the services they use
02:19:20 <shachaf> Right, you've got it in one.
02:19:35 <zzo38> An IRC server could also easily increase the maximum message length. (If it is long enough, you could post images using a data: URI. I have actually seen this once, although the image was split across several consecutive messages.)
02:19:53 <shachaf> I was just lying when I said I object to things about Discord. What I meant to say is that it's perfect.
02:19:59 <nakilon> there is no need in images in the text chat
02:20:22 <zzo38> nakilon: I mostly agree. (And in the few cases that you do need images, usually you can just post a URL.)
02:21:24 <fizzie> Are you quite sure "triggering" isn't what happens when IRC people hear the slightest nonnegative opinions about a thing they hate? Because I can't exactly tell the difference.
02:21:48 <zzo38> It is true, a regular IRC client won't know how to access logs over Gopher or HTTP, but it could be mentioned in the server's HELP file (and the MOTD could mention it too). Even this IRC has the URLs of logs in the TOPIC message (even though it is client-side logging).
02:22:31 <nakilon> how is "Discord has many advantages over IRC" nonnegative?
02:22:44 <fizzie> Are you saying it's negative, then?
02:23:01 <nakilon> chats with images, server side logs and voice communications existed before Discord -- for example Skype
02:23:27 <nakilon> these tools are just for different purposes and one can't have "advantages over" another one
02:23:48 <shachaf> I'm very confused about what I was interpreted as saying.
02:23:57 <nakilon> IRC is for communication, Discord is for memes and noisy voice chat rooms
02:25:48 <zzo38> I think that if the channel is public, then it should be OK to save the logs. If the channel is private, then they might not want logs saved.
02:27:22 <fizzie> That just sounds like nonsense. Even without ever using it myself, I'm pretty sure there's some amount of people using it for what's unquestionably "communication" instead of "memes" and "noisy voice chat rooms", just based on what I've heard from people I can't imagine would have any reason to mislead.
02:27:41 <nakilon> that's the only bad side of Slack btw -- once the Team owner buys the "premium plan" it can read all chats
02:27:58 <fizzie> (I've no idea how big a fraction that is of their total user base, and since I don't know anything about it, I don't think I care to argue about it particularly much.)
02:28:15 <zzo38> Yes, people do use Discord for communication, but IRC is better; for one thing, it can be used without specialized software.
02:28:55 <zzo38> (Well, depends on the kind of communications being made. For some things, email, NNTP, etc may be better.)
02:29:24 <shachaf> fizzie: Sounds to me like you're a gamer and you heard something you didn't like.
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02:30:27 <zzo38> (Other people prefer Matrix over IRC, and bridges between Matrix and IRC do exist.)
02:30:52 <shachaf> I really don't like Matrix/IRC bridges.
02:31:06 <shachaf> IRC doesn't support the same features, and the bridges compensate for that by writing annoying text.
02:31:07 <nakilon> fizzie the thing is that taking all kinds of people who are using Discord I meet in internet 99% of them just didn't hear about IRC, 99,9% never used IRC, 90% didn't hear about Teamspeak, most of them didn't really try to use other services to collectively share screen or use webcam -- Discord users are mostly just those who didn't know about
02:31:08 <nakilon> software that already existed
02:31:08 <fizzie> Anyway, I've heard you can't argue with success, and the fact this IRC/Discord thing has been the longest "conversation" (if you want to call it that) in a long while says something about the success of this particular channel in particular, which I (from looking at netsplit.de charts) suspect is more widely applicable than that.
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02:31:55 <nakilon> this is how impractical things become popular -- you just need to put enough advertising in it; IRC isn't monetized by default while Discord is -- they made it to integrate games, twitch and stuff
02:33:06 <fizzie> I think it's quite interesting how freenode's been a lot more resistant, though. Truly this is the Rivendell of IRC networks. Or is it Lorien? Anyway.
02:35:46 <nakilon> the amount of talk about anything does not mean that it is cool
02:35:48 <zzo38> Well, a server that supports multiple protocols for the same messages or files is possible. Features that one doesn't have, other one might have, although extensions are possible, if the protocol supports that. There are different kind of communication, so you would only use the protocols for those kind of communication.
02:36:41 <zzo38> There are also some features that some users (or administrator) might just not want.
02:42:02 <zzo38> Do you like NNTP?
02:47:12 <fizzie> I do like the Usenet network in the abstract (or did back when I still partook of it). I don't have much of an opinion on the protocol. I got the impression it had some slightly obscure things around how control messages are treated? And I also heard that one specific server was hard to administer, but that's an implementation detail.
02:47:31 <fizzie> INN, right.
02:49:19 <shachaf> Do you like TCP?
02:49:24 <fizzie> I ran a very small NNTP-based network for a small group, but not sure with what. Definitely used Leafnode at some point as a local caching/batching thing for newsreading.
02:50:28 <fizzie> Our university's local NNTP newsgroups had a group called "-h" for the CS students (all the other groups were under a more conventional hierarchy of groups), and I don't think I ever found out why it was named like that.
02:51:05 <fizzie> It was the group where the script you ran when someone left their screen unlocked and their account logged in posted the message to.
02:51:07 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so too (and INN also does a lot more than I need), so I wrote my own implementation, which stores the messages in a SQLite database. (Some things are not currently implemented, but should be in future, such as authentication, and full support for copying messages between servers (it might be a separate program, which may be set up in cron or anacron).)
02:52:05 <fizzie> Oh, I should've archived those newsgroups, wonder why I never thought of that. They're gone now.
02:53:01 <zzo38> (Also in future, alternative interfaces (also as separate programs) with the same database, might also be implemented. Other people can help with that if wanted, I suppose.)
02:53:02 <fizzie> I feel like they probably weren't accessible from outside the university or student campus networks either.
02:55:44 <zzo38> Do you remember what was written on those newsgroups?
02:57:15 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80691&oldid=80659 * Digital Hunter * (+152) /* Digital root */
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03:01:04 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80692&oldid=80691 * Digital Hunter * (-4) /* Numbers */
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03:05:11 <nakilon> I'm sorry for being a bit edgy
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03:07:46 <kmc> happy Chinese New Year / Lunar New Year
03:21:08 <zzo38> Maybe I might make Chinese cookies
03:23:38 <nakilon> is there any rule in English that adjective can't go before the pronoun? like "additional horse" is ok, "it runs" is ok, "horse runs" is ok, but "additional it" isn't ok
03:24:01 <nakilon> hoped to see it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun but no
03:29:17 <nakilon> hmm, https://ell.stackexchange.com/q/116505/33819
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04:54:32 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80693&oldid=80690 * Salpynx * (+1010) disable UTF-8 output to enable arbitrary binary data generation
05:04:10 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80694&oldid=80693 * Salpynx * (+26) heading
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08:01:00 <zzo38> Confused Maze {?} World Tribal Enchantment - Wall ;; Objects enter the battlefield tapped.
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10:15:20 <esowiki> [[Esme/esme.pl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80695&oldid=80694 * Salpynx * (-17) remove .pl extension
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10:32:48 <esowiki> [[Esme]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80696&oldid=41893 * Salpynx * (+216) A possible Esme implementation. Works according to the info available from this wiki
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16:27:46 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80697&oldid=80686 * IOKG04 * (+188) /* Introductions */
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18:11:54 <b_jonas> you know how it can be hard to find the sockets on the back of monitor, because monitors are heavy and big so you can't easily rotate them to see those sockets, right? and you know who the typical TFT monitor is shaped like an elognated letter D, with the flat side facing the viewer and the curved side on the back getting ventillation? and how a HDMI connector is also shaped like an elognated letter D?
18:12:00 <b_jonas> it would be such a great mnemonic if the HDMI socket were placed on the monitor such that the flat side faces towards the viewer, but no! it's backwards, at least on some monitors. WHY? why do they design such a connector then mess up the mnemonic?
18:12:34 <b_jonas> HDMI isn't even the first digital monitor port, that's DVI, so by the time HDMI was invented they'd have had experience to know all this.
18:15:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: re your public files, are "gopher://zzo38computer.org/" and "http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/" the only roots? I don't promise anything because I have a backlog of useful websites that I should download, but neither "http://zzo38computer.org/" nor the gopher root seems to link to the fossil directory, so there might be more roots that I missed
18:21:44 <b_jonas> in other news, Nintendo's new Mario game has this schtick where every enemy is turned to a cat by adding cat ears and sometimes a cat tail: it has cat goombas, cat koopas, cat piranha plants, catfish etc. So now I wonder: does unicode have a combining cat ears character, so that we can represent a multiocular o with cat ears in unicode text?
18:31:15 <fizzie> Re the HDMI mnemonic, I wonder if that's just things like the HDMI connector they got sourced the cheapest being oriented a given way in terms of the PCB it's mounted to, and there being some practical reason where that board's in.
18:31:52 <fizzie> But it is annoying. I usually try to feel for those sockets, but my fingertips aren't good enough to really tell the orientation, especially when it's hard to reach in the first place.
18:33:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80698&oldid=80697 * SKPG-Tech * (+174) /* Introductions */
18:34:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the female socket in the monitor is completely sunken into the housing, just like with USB, so you can't feel it, you can only feel the cutout on the plastic cover, which doesn't help enough
18:34:57 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80699 * SKPG-Tech * (+902) Created page with "Pewlang is an [[esoteric programming language]], that translates to [[brainfuck]]. It was mostly inspired by [[Z]] and was made as a joke in the [https://pewpew.live/discord P..."
18:37:28 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80700&oldid=80698 * Tasty Kiwi * (+203)
18:40:13 <esowiki> [[User:Tasty Kiwi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80701 * Tasty Kiwi * (+80) Created page with "I am one of the creators of [[Pewlang]]. I like coding in Python and JavaScript."
18:40:34 <esowiki> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80702&oldid=79895 * SKPG-Tech * (+141) /* Example Members of the TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution family */
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20:16:33 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80703&oldid=80699 * SKPG-Tech * (+3042)
20:19:14 <zzo38> b_jonas: The files in the gopher are dynamic; only the URLs starting with "gopher://zzo38computer.org/1textfile/" are not dynamic. For the Fossil repositories, you must use the Fossil protocol to clone them; simply downloading the file won't work.
20:20:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, then let's say "gopher://zzo38computer.org/1textfile/" is one of the roots
20:20:43 <b_jonas> and yes, I can clone from the fossil repositories (could pull from some of them some years ago at least)
20:21:51 <b_jonas> "http://zzo38computer.org/" should probably link to the fossil directory, and to "http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/" which mirrors the gopher
20:23:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I will fix that later. Right now I will shower and eat, and then I can find if there are other files that should be, and fix that.
20:27:08 <esowiki> [[Pewlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80704&oldid=80703 * SKPG-Tech * (-35)
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22:07:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80705&oldid=80700 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+167)
22:13:50 <esowiki> [[Pancake Stack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80706&oldid=80478 * Shimakaze-Kan * (+131) Added IDE link
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23:08:27 <b_jonas> `ping
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23:23:00 <zzo38> There are some other files, and there is also other things such as the NNTP service; maybe I should add some way to make backups remotely in a way which only copies changed files and can easily be extended for use with multiple types of realms (ordinary files, collections of artifacts referenced by hashes (e.g. Fossil repositories), netnews articles, etc).
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23:32:21 <zzo38> (I don't know if rsync supports such extensions)
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23:49:03 <fizzie> We use zsync for publicly available backups of the wiki contents, but I'm not sure it's really worth the hassle. I think it's mostly intended to do what rsync would do (download only changed blocks) even when the file is served from a "dumb" HTTP server, as long as it supports range requests. And I don't think it easily extends to other kinds of data.
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2021-02-13
00:06:32 <zzo38> OK, apparently zsync uses a file called .zsync to control it; I will read the documentation to see how suitable it is.
00:08:18 <zzo38> However, what I have, I think that what is helpful is each "realm" has its own timestamp, and may be by name (ordinary files and NNTP) or by hash (Fossil repositories). By hash is always immutable; by name can be mutable (ordinary files) or immutable (NNTP).
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00:19:06 <zzo38> Is there a backup protocol that does that?
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00:39:31 <zzo38> I think .zsync files are probably not suitable for my use.
00:40:28 <zzo38> (I also do not see documentation about the zsync file format, anyways.)
00:43:59 <fizzie> Yeah, I haven't seen it documented either. There's a page that explains what it's made of conceptually -- http://zsync.moria.org.uk/paper200503/ -- but doesn't bother to describe the exact file format. But you're right that it's probably not really designed to be extensible.
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00:46:47 <esowiki> [[Chatlog]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80707&oldid=80689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+57) Move cats to bottom; add some too
00:48:16 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80708&oldid=80670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* C */ Add [[Chatlog]]
00:49:52 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80709&oldid=80708 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) /* P */ Add [[Pewlang]]
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01:41:25 <oren> monitors should just have feel-able markings in the shape of H D M I
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01:41:41 <oren> so that you can tell which one is the HDMI port
01:49:05 <esowiki> [[Divrac]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2287) Make language
01:49:38 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80711&oldid=80709 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* D */ +[[Divrac]]
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05:22:00 <Sgeo> Has anyone made a spacesort analogous to sleepsort that just puts stuff into a large array?
05:37:00 <Sgeo> https://play.rust-lang.org/?version=stable&mode=debug&edition=2018&gist=581dc6e3ac2423bf0b82105cb731faf9
05:45:44 <shachaf> This sort of thing is sometimes called "bucket sort" or other names.
05:48:26 <shachaf> "counting sort" was what I meant, I think.
05:48:55 <shachaf> Radix sort often uses this kind of thing.
05:51:10 <Sgeo> It has a legitimate use???
05:51:49 <Sgeo> I guess I was thinking that since I was trying to tamper with the obviously esoteric sleepsort, the corresponding wasteful of space would also be esoteric
05:52:04 <shachaf> Sure, if there's a small number of values.
05:55:56 <shachaf> It's a linear-time sorting algorithm.
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07:12:40 <zzo38> How is sleepsort working?
07:18:23 <zzo38> On a television show, for a few seconds it showed a different television show for a few seconds; it displayed two overlapping station indicators. And then, it switched back to the correct show, and then a few seconds after that, it was interrupted again, for less than one second I saw a message that said "Press any key to watch TV".
07:18:56 <zzo38> (It is a message and font style which are not applicable to any of the equipment I have.)
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