←2021-04 2021-05 2021-06→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-05-01
00:14:25 <imode> int-e: brings to question how a lot of "concatenative languages" define what counts as a valid program.
00:18:25 <imode> if valid programs can be constructed via concatenation of arbitrary programs one must wonder what counts as a valid program.
00:19:53 <imode> the program `1 +` is valid in a concatenative language. and you can break that program apart by simply splitting it down the middle, into 1 and +.
00:21:00 <imode> so you could say that the "inverse" of concatenation would be, like, splitting it apart at any arbitrary point.
00:21:43 <imode> syntactically, any languages that use bracketed quotations aren't concatenative. if I split it apart and the brackets don't match on either side, it's not a valid program.
00:21:51 <imode> rather, the two halves aren't.
00:24:25 <imode> so what makes, say, '1 + apply' different than, say, ` + 1? I can split it all up into individual tokens and concatenate them again every which way, but only some combinations of those things are valid programs.
00:24:54 <imode> is it down to the semantics, then? that when I try to run `1 + apply`, I get a stack underflow because the thing I'm applying was binary?
00:25:55 <imode> is it that if I split "apply + 1" or "` + 1" up, or carve up any unlambda program, I won't get a valid underlying tree representation?
00:29:47 <imode> I don't know. I consider any valid program as "anything that can leave the underlying interpreter in a steady state".
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01:08:08 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82527&oldid=82153 * EnilKoder * (+427) started PrimitiveType zooms
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05:26:43 <zzo38> imode: Maybe if it uses bracketed quotations, it can be said as a nested concatenative where the blocks are considered as atomic, then.
05:27:10 <imode> that's true. but it's pretty hacky.
05:30:14 <oerjan> if you have something like underload's * and a, you only need single-character blocks
05:30:46 <oerjan> and can compose the rest
05:32:01 <imode> that's right. but the resulting program state of a program that builds a quotation no longer corresponds to a valid program.
05:32:51 <oerjan> hm...
05:34:07 <imode> while you may build these objects, they are not directly representable without some kind of transformation back into the things that built them, which is not a 1:1 mapping.
05:35:08 <oerjan> well it can never be a 1:1 mapping if it's TC anyhow
05:35:48 <oerjan> you might choose a canonical form. but it might be awkward to work with.
05:36:05 <imode> yup, that's true. but it still stands that they're nit directly representable.
05:36:30 <oerjan> i mean you could choose a canonical form as the representation.
05:36:47 <imode> I'd still rather not have that intermediate transformation step.
05:37:10 <zzo38> It depends on the programming language, some might have atomic quotation blocks like I mentioned, in which case it might be representable
05:38:25 <imode> those aren't distinctly concatenative though unless you say "any division of a program needs to have a balanced set of parentheses".
05:38:33 <imode> s/parentheses/brackets
05:39:00 <imode> which imo if you're talking about program concatenation that's a different operation entirely.
05:39:12 <oerjan> well i am imagining an underload variant where e.g. (a) is represented as a single character.
05:39:37 <oerjan> so there are no brackets
05:41:06 <imode> true. but again, if I compose a quotation out of those atoms/quoted functions, there's no way to represent those as valid subprograms without translating them into subprograms that construct those quotations.
05:41:12 <oerjan> hm alternative idea: give some semantic to unmatched brackets
05:42:04 <oerjan> hm that reminds me of my underload interpreter in emmental, where there where 3 modes that a character could be interpreted in
05:43:15 <imode> you could give semantics to the unmatched brackets.. and that's kind of where the notion of valid program breaks down into the semantics of the language, I guess.
05:43:21 <zzo38> In PostScript you can have a block such as "{1 add}" which is treated as a single token, although you can also write "1 /add cvx 2 array astore cvx" which produces the same thing. They are also the same "kind of things"; "{1 add}" just produces the same object in the tokenizer, that the other produces several objects, which when executed, produce that.
05:43:52 <zzo38> Although, having different modes of interpretation is like how Forth is doing; once it reads : and then the name, then it is in compiling mode.
05:45:37 <zzo38> Programming languages such as Underload could be implemented in either way.
05:46:31 <imode> kinda gets back to "can I cleave an unlambda program in half and have either half be a valid program". if you have a tolerant enough interpreter, yes.
05:48:47 <zzo38> Yes, depending on the implementation it might, although Unlambda is more structured, so splitting it after half of the number of bytes will probably break the structure, but some interpreters may try to execute it anyways.
05:49:53 <imode> thing is, what structure? the structure is there because the apply operation is binary and expects two arguments. if its two arguments don't exist, it just doesn't reduce.
05:53:25 <zzo38> Yes, that is the structure. But, you could do it other ways in some implementations. In such a case, it would implement a superset of Unlambda, I suppose.
05:55:43 <zzo38> (Since, if the structure doesn't match, then I would think that that particular code then won't quite be Unlambda.)
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07:34:53 <zzo38> The IBM Plex font is in FontLab format, which is proprietary, but looking at the source files, they are XML files, and possibly an open source implementation could be made, by examining the format of the XML files. Has such a thing been done?
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09:24:14 <nakilon> I just realised that every twitch channel is an IRC channel and you can join it at any time even if it's offline
09:24:50 <nakilon> and the guy who made the Nightbot is a damn genious to make it before others realised to make it
09:26:43 <nakilon> I'm not sure though if it's hosted on some server that keeps millions of socket connections to twitch or it's integrated with twitch infrastructure to emulate the botting
09:27:09 <nakilon> oh wait, he does not need millions of connetions, he just keeps one and joins channels
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11:09:17 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82528&oldid=82516 * SunnyMoon * (+145) Finally, I have been building this for ages! I am pretty sure !@#$%^&*()_ will be turing complete if it can rotate the top three elements.
11:09:38 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82529&oldid=82528 * SunnyMoon * (+1) -_-
11:16:27 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82530&oldid=82529 * SunnyMoon * (-113) This apparantly does not work
11:20:50 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82531&oldid=82530 * SunnyMoon * (+116) This does?
11:21:10 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+/Algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82532&oldid=82531 * SunnyMoon * (-2) Huh?
11:26:46 <esowiki> [[!@$%^&*()+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82533&oldid=82513 * SunnyMoon * (+190) A better parity program
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22:39:42 <esowiki> [[Talk:TheSingularity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82534&oldid=81161 * BrightBlackHole * (+186) /* Help! */
22:39:50 <esowiki> [[Talk:TheSingularity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82535&oldid=82534 * BrightBlackHole * (+2)
22:41:19 <esowiki> [[Talk:TheSingularity]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82536&oldid=82535 * BrightBlackHole * (+0)
22:43:02 <esowiki> [[User:BrightBlackHole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82537&oldid=78572 * BrightBlackHole * (+89) /* ok for real though */
22:43:22 <esowiki> [[User:BrightBlackHole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82538&oldid=82537 * BrightBlackHole * (+0) /* ok for real though */
22:43:38 <esowiki> [[User:BrightBlackHole]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82539&oldid=82538 * BrightBlackHole * (-113) /* ok for real though */
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2021-05-02
00:34:49 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82540&oldid=82473 * Beniolenio * (+17)
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01:00:21 <esowiki> [[Brainfault]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82541 * Beniolenio * (+4085) Created page with "Brainfuck is a cell-based esolang heavily based on brainfuck. It has all of brainfuck's commands as well as a few others for ease of use. {| class="wikitable" !Command !Desc..."
01:00:35 <esowiki> [[Brainfault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82542&oldid=82541 * Beniolenio * (+1)
01:00:52 <esowiki> [[Brainfault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82543&oldid=82542 * Beniolenio * (-1) Undo revision 82542 by [[Special:Contributions/Beniolenio|Beniolenio]] ([[User talk:Beniolenio|talk]])
01:01:06 <esowiki> [[Brainfault]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82544&oldid=82543 * Beniolenio * (+1)
01:06:12 <esowiki> [[Brainfault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82545&oldid=82544 * Beniolenio * (+13)
01:06:22 <esowiki> [[Brainfault]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82546&oldid=82545 * Beniolenio * (+0)
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01:53:49 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82547&oldid=82503 * Digital Hunter * (+271) /* Three-param */ Important clarification that's already in use by the author of the language.
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03:19:18 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AndrewLi * New user account
03:21:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82548&oldid=82475 * AndrewLi * (+152) /* Introductions */
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04:28:10 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82549&oldid=82464 * Zzo38 * (+1121) PostScript, Free Hero Mesh
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05:10:10 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82550&oldid=82393 * Aspwil * (+772) /* Instructions */
05:16:12 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82551&oldid=82550 * Aspwil * (-45) /* Instructions */
05:20:26 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82552&oldid=82551 * Aspwil * (+50) /* Language Overview */
05:22:33 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82553&oldid=82552 * Aspwil * (+0) /* Instructions */
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07:22:06 <esowiki> [[Minimal CISC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82554 * Leothetechguy * (+1152) Created page with "The minimal CISC instruction set presented [http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/cisc/ here] is stack-based and composed entirely of zero-address instructions. There ar..."
07:22:43 <esowiki> [[Minimal CISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82555&oldid=82554 * Leothetechguy * (-40)
07:23:22 <esowiki> [[Minimal CISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82556&oldid=82555 * Leothetechguy * (+0)
07:25:48 <esowiki> [[Minimal CISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82557&oldid=82556 * Leothetechguy * (+134)
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11:15:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sporeball]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82558&oldid=82272 * Lyxal * (+97) /* Sus */ new section
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16:18:05 <b_jonas> `? catamorphism
16:18:08 <HackEso> A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
16:18:38 <b_jonas> Catamorphism is also a technique that cats use to fit through very small obstacles
16:18:41 <myname> `? password
16:18:43 <HackEso> The password of the month is hiding in plain sight.
16:18:45 <b_jonas> small gaps
16:21:01 <esowiki> [[BALAE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82559 * WallGraffiti * (+2150) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Brainfuck Assembly Language Advanced Edition (BALAE) |paradigms=Imperative |author=[[User:WallGraffiti]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |memsys=:Cate..."
16:22:02 <esowiki> [[BALAE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82560&oldid=82559 * WallGraffiti * (+0)
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17:31:02 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82561&oldid=82375 * Ais523 * (+400) copyright is about not copying, you have to have written the text yourself
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19:47:33 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82562&oldid=82547 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* ROT13 cipher */ oops it was dumb-ly broken sigh
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20:15:16 <zzo38> {?} Instant ;; Two target permanents copy each other. Exchange control of those permanents.
20:15:31 <zzo38> I can think of many uses for this; what can you think of?
20:45:56 <b_jonas> ^style euparl
20:45:56 <fungot> Not found.
20:46:00 <b_jonas> ^style eupar
20:46:00 <fungot> Not found.
20:46:03 <b_jonas> ^styles
20:46:07 <b_jonas> ^style
20:46:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
20:46:14 <b_jonas> ^style europarl
20:46:14 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
20:47:26 <b_jonas> fungot, what is your opinion on the proposed amendment on thermoregulations?
20:47:26 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mr gil-robles and myself, who benefit disproportionately? does he think he will respond to his question.
20:47:29 <int-e> fungot: hmm, commissioner or president?
20:47:29 <fungot> int-e: mr president, would you not accept that the external border of the european people's party ( christian democrats) and european democrats and the commission for the information society. only 20% of the technology does not endanger future generations is becoming more and more waste.
20:49:55 <int-e> Hmm, this ponder this feels a bit odd... all the interesting theory is already in the task description? Though there was still some things left to do.
20:50:07 <int-e> was->were
20:51:37 <int-e> (Also, I have not (yet?) confirmed the hint.)
20:52:13 <int-e> (cf. https://www.research.ibm.com/haifa/ponderthis/challenges/May2021.html )
20:54:37 <fizzie> fungot: Does that mean 80% of all technology *does* endanger future generations?
20:54:37 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, commissioner, although the euphemism given to the public, including when the work of the council of ministers.
20:55:57 <int-e> fizzie: that really sounds quite plausible
20:56:28 <int-e> of course it's usually not the technogy per se, but the scale at which we use it
20:56:44 <int-e> technology <-- I golfed that down a bit, I guess.
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21:29:55 <esowiki> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82563&oldid=82553 * Truttle1 * (-51) /* Truth machine */ - Found a shorter way to write the truth-machine.
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22:12:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AndrewBayly * New user account
22:18:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82564&oldid=82548 * AndrewBayly * (+182) /* Introductions */
22:25:34 <esowiki> [[Spacebar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82565 * AndrewBayly * (+371) Created page with "Spacebar is an esoteric variant of JavaScript. The Spacebar interpreter first takes your code and adds spaces in random locations. Then it interprets your code as JavaScript...."
22:29:04 <esowiki> [[Spacebar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82566&oldid=82565 * AndrewBayly * (+77)
22:35:56 <esowiki> [[Spacebar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82567&oldid=82566 * AndrewBayly * (+873) /* Hello, World! */
22:53:33 <esowiki> [[Spacebar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82568&oldid=82567 * AndrewBayly * (-15) /* Hello, World! */
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23:52:37 <esowiki> [[Spacebar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82569&oldid=82568 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+83) cats /* Hello, World! */
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00:02:41 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82572&oldid=82564 * Monika-Trenholme * (+366) /* Introductions */
00:03:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82573&oldid=82572 * Monika-Trenholme * (-120) /* Introductions */
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00:15:42 <esowiki> [[User:RXVT100]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82576 * RXVT100 * (+77) Created page with "~~~~"
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01:59:36 <imode> why do the BCKW combinators carry an extra `x` parameter around? for convenience?
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02:21:02 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82578&oldid=82570 * Zzo38 * (+1551)
03:06:26 <zzo38> I don't know why, but maybe it is needed I don't know
03:50:16 <imode> seems like a lot of the reasoning behind the different combinators comes down to "requirements", but deducing these requirements and the intuition behind them is something to be reverse engineered.
04:20:14 <zzo38> Yes, maybe it is (unless it is documented already).
04:21:41 <shachaf> Which ones have an extra parameter?
04:22:02 <shachaf> It seems necessary to me in all four cases.
04:22:22 <imode> why? if you omit `x`, it's still a valid combinator set. B denotes application but the rest just denote adjacency.
04:22:50 <zzo38> Yes, I also thought probably it is, although I have not proved it at this time either way (I have not tried, though).
04:22:54 <imode> https://doisinkidney.com/posts/2020-10-17-ski.html literally the only article I have found on a BCKW formulation without that first parameter.
04:23:59 <shachaf> What are you suggesting for the non-x versions?
04:24:12 <imode> just omitting the `x` like the article.
04:24:23 <shachaf> I see, you were actually thinking of using M instead of W.
04:24:25 <imode> though I don't know why `Axy -> y`.
04:24:48 <imode> maybe I'm missing something but the equivalent should be, what, `Axy -> x`?
04:24:57 * imode shrugs.
04:25:10 <imode> or maybe just... `Ax -> `
04:25:22 <shachaf> I'm not sure what that latter one means.
04:25:28 <shachaf> Anyway, I think of these functions as trying to accomplish a specific goal, I guess.
04:25:46 <imode> the latter one is "A applied to some x deletes x."
04:25:50 <shachaf> Corresponding to things you can do in logic.
04:25:59 <shachaf> But is A a function here, or what?
04:26:04 <imode> duplication, argument reordering (swapping, in this case), deletion, and composition.
04:26:07 <imode> A is a combinator.
04:26:31 <shachaf> What is a combinator in this context? Not a thing you can write as a lambda term?
04:26:35 <imode> as shown in the article. don't know why it's Axy -> y and not Ax -> :nil:.
04:26:42 <imode> combinator as in the combinatory calculus.
04:26:55 <imode> combinatory logic.
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04:28:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure what this is in this usage. Some sort of rewriting system?
04:34:52 <zzo38> Presumably due to the structure is why it is not "Ax -> :nil:" I suppose
04:36:00 <shachaf> Anyway, maybe looking at the types explains why I think these are more natural.
04:36:22 <shachaf> w : (a -> a -> b) -> (a -> b)
04:36:34 <imode> I'm surprised you've not heard of combinatory logic before, shachaf.
04:36:38 <shachaf> const : b -> (a -> b)
04:37:09 <imode> I don't read intuition behind type signatures.
04:37:09 <shachaf> I have heard of combinatory logic. But not in a context that allows "Ax -> ".
04:37:23 <shachaf> Anyway, M doesn't even have a type, is one argument against it.
04:37:53 <imode> I don't think types dictate the intutition or requirements behind these.
04:38:15 <imode> but, what do I know.
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04:45:20 <zzo38> Do you like the Magic: the Gathering card that I had made up? {?} Instant ;; Two target permanents copy each other. Exchange control of those permanents. It doesn't seems like much, but actually there is a lot of things that it can do.
04:54:19 <b_jonas> re BCKW, ideally https://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic#BCKW_calculus should tell how to translate lambda calculus to BCKW directly, rather than just the more opaque equivalence with SKI. the direct translation gives an intuition of why BCKW is convenient. I only realized that after thinking about Amicus, which has a built-in B combinator
04:57:01 <b_jonas> but it probably makes more sense with multi-variable functions like Amicus and FP have
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07:49:47 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82581&oldid=77359 * TwilightSparkle * (+139)
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11:30:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82582&oldid=82581 * SunnyMoon * (+154) Yay!
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14:20:45 <esowiki> [[$tonePits]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82583&oldid=62875 * SunnyMoon * (-17) little bit of cleanup
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14:31:48 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82584&oldid=75488 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Croup is a terrible disease
14:32:38 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82585&oldid=82584 * SunnyMoon * (-1) Nice language by the way
14:34:11 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82586&oldid=82585 * SunnyMoon * (+0) Casting spells never was such a good job
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17:18:12 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82591&oldid=82586 * SunnyMoon * (+248) Spelling
17:24:52 <esowiki> [[((?)?)?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82592&oldid=82591 * SunnyMoon * (-3) Well I am also bad at speling
17:31:11 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82593&oldid=73082 * SunnyMoon * (-10) It is preferred if you write this this way
17:33:07 <esowiki> [[Talk:Symbols]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82594 * SunnyMoon * (+206) I know the creator probably will never come back
17:40:42 <esowiki> [[Backsharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82595&oldid=82430 * Threesodas * (+3) /* IO functionality */
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20:31:49 <zzo38> Will fopencookie be standardized in future? I think that it is useful, and my own library for computing hashes uses it. int fosimp_hash_stream(int alg,FILE*echo,Fosimp_Hash*hash,FILE**fp); There is also the convenience function to wrap it: int fosimp_hash(int alg,const unsigned char*data,size_t len,Fosimp_Hash*hash);
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21:13:42 <esowiki> [[User:1hals/subleq.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82596 * 1hals * (+2870) create
21:14:07 <esowiki> [[User:1hals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82597&oldid=81059 * 1hals * (+42)
21:23:09 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82598&oldid=81456 * 1hals * (-8) chainge intro paragraph wording
21:28:56 <esowiki> [[Backwords]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82599&oldid=82598 * 1hals * (+99) /* Hello World */ add example
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22:54:49 <ItzzMe> esolangs
22:55:05 <zzo38> What about the esolangs?
22:55:17 <ItzzMe> they're esoteric
22:56:01 <zzo38> Yes, but I hoped you would have some more comments than just that
22:56:21 <ItzzMe> ok
22:59:44 <ItzzMe> theres an esolang for minecraft but not for roblox
22:59:56 <ItzzMe> (as far as i know)
23:00:04 <zzo38> If you know how to invent one, you can try to do so.
23:00:12 <ItzzMe> i do not
23:00:29 <ItzzMe> :(
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23:58:54 <esowiki> [[Talk:Symbols]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82600&oldid=82594 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+203) Reply
2021-05-04
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00:03:36 <ItzzMe> cool
00:04:02 <a1234a> m
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00:04:40 <ItzzMe> ok then
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00:43:08 <zzo38> Is there a way in C to count the number of arguments that a macro has been called with? There are variable argument macros, but I don't know if it has a command to tell you how many.
00:50:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Trump bot 2 * New user account
00:51:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82601&oldid=82575 * Trump bot 2 * (+119) /* Introductions */
00:58:50 <fizzie> There isn't. You can write an argument-counting macro up to some small number of arguments in O(n) amount of code with relative ease, or one that works for pretty much arbitrary (though not quite) amount of arguments with a lot more work.
00:59:16 <zzo38> Note that I am using the GNU extensions (in case that helps at all).
01:01:18 <fizzie> https://ideone.com/rZZlLo is what the easy-but-not-really-feasible-for-that-many-arguments solution looks like.
01:03:54 <fizzie> As for a version that works for essentially any number of arguments, I've only done it on top of https://github.com/rofl0r/order-pp which is cheating.
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01:44:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Trump bot 2 * uploaded "[[File:Hello world QR code.png]]": Hello world QR code
01:49:31 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82603&oldid=82369 * Trump bot 2 * (+51) /* QR code */
02:04:50 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Trump bot 2 * uploaded "[[File:Hello world bar code.png]]": Hello world bar code
02:06:00 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82605&oldid=82603 * Trump bot 2 * (+52) /* Bar code */
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02:50:23 <ItzzMe> i have nothing interesting to say thus: a
02:50:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: let me look that up...
02:51:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: or better, just give you pointers. https://gustedt.gitlabpages.inria.fr/p99/ and https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_76_0/libs/preprocessor/doc/index.html are where you want to look for such tricks
02:52:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: https://gustedt.gitlabpages.inria.fr/p99/p99-html/group__basic__list__operations_ga36a4ab24ad412a94da4c5aad433d6cd3.html#ga36a4ab24ad412a94da4c5aad433d6cd3 says "Return the length of the variable length argument list […] This supposes that the length of the list is less than P99_MAX_NUMBER."
02:52:25 <b_jonas> so I think what fizzie says is right
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02:55:43 <Itzzy> oops
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06:18:30 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82606&oldid=81319 * Trump bot 2 * (+129)
06:29:27 <esowiki> [[SemicolonHash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82607 * Palaiologos * (+1018) Created page with "''';#''' (SemicolonHash) is a programming language created by PPCG user ''caird coinheringaahing''. It has only two commands: <code>;</code> - add one to the accumulator, and..."
06:29:51 <esowiki> [[SemicolonHash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82608&oldid=82607 * Palaiologos * (+2)
06:30:55 <esowiki> [[SemicolonHash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82609&oldid=82608 * Palaiologos * (+1) reference => external resource
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06:52:31 <les-citrons> bee
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06:57:53 <kmc> i should finish my openscad quine
06:58:14 <kmc> what is the best presentation for a quine source code as a 3d object?
07:00:26 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of openscad?
07:06:24 <b_jonas> kmc: yeah, you mentioned that last month and the month before
07:07:50 <kmc> hi b_jonas
07:07:52 <b_jonas> kmc: best representation is probably two stone tablets with the source code engraved onto them
07:08:04 <b_jonas> and then you later have to break them in anger
07:08:22 <b_jonas> alternately accidentally drop one, in the pastafarian tradition
07:10:18 <b_jonas> and add a carved wooden likeness of the master that you have accidentally killed in anger as a payload for repentence
07:10:37 <b_jonas> with comments suggesting that the city will not fall while the likeness is there
07:13:09 <kmc> i guess it would be nice, to give my heart to a god, but which one, which one do i choose
07:13:55 <b_jonas> kmc: the rest are just facets of the one so it doesn't really matter
07:14:01 <b_jonas> or misinterpretations of the one, possibly
07:14:07 <b_jonas> heretic misinterpretations
07:14:14 <b_jonas> but misinterpretations of the same god nonetheless
07:14:43 <kmc> why of course i know god... he's me
07:26:27 <kmc> I think you can argue (and I will argue, because I'm a contrarian SOB) that vacuum tubes were a more consequential invention than transistors. Vacuum tubes gave us practical radio, television, long-distance telephones, digital and analog computers, radar, and rock and roll. True, transistors and ICs made all of these things a lot cheaper, smaller, and better, which opened up new applications. Without
07:26:33 <kmc> transistors we wouldn't have the Internet. But we would still have consumer electronics, electronic mass media, electronic communications, electronic warfare, electronic music, and at least some level of computing.
07:29:36 <kmc> FOGBANK is aerogel! god is that obvious
07:32:18 <kmc> your tax dollars at work
07:32:36 <kmc> styrofoam should be just about as good
07:32:46 <kmc> foamed polystyrene.
07:33:11 <les-citrons> FOGBANK consists of bee
07:36:15 <kmc> I can see through walls
07:36:20 <kmc> using linear algebra
07:38:22 <kmc> even without transistors I can imagine reaching by 2020 a roughly 1980s level of technology, tube based SAGE style consoles in your home, connected by modem to timesharing systems
07:38:53 <kmc> good enough to destroy the world ten times over and save it too, and what more do you want?
07:40:39 <les-citrons> with vaccum tubes? I doubt it.
07:46:21 <kmc> do you think i can build a bell 103 modem with tubes
07:46:36 <kmc> be the freak you wanna see
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07:49:16 <kmc> the charactron...
07:50:32 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82610&oldid=82606 * Trump bot 2 * (+226)
07:51:34 <les-citrons> I think it would be wholly impractical to have household products with 10s of thousands of vacuum tubes in them
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07:55:30 <les-citrons> though, I suppose a modem might be simpler than that. however, I doubt that any vacuum tube computer could ever scale to simultaneously serve many concurrent users
07:58:08 <zzo38> kmc: I have not used openscad and have not looked at the instructions very much either
08:07:31 <kmc> reagan dons lithium packs bright mexico's saturday / sanda crew peers from beyond the berm
08:07:42 <kmc> no shield for the gipper as he melts foe red and blue
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08:27:03 <kmc> swept by heavy metal, swine's song overhead
08:27:05 <kmc> brrrrrrrrrt
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13:13:54 <b_jonas> kmc: as for vacuum tubes, I recently learned from a video game that "thermionic tube" is an alternate name for vacuum tubes, or at least some types of them. that name sounds quite sci-fi style and so fits the genre, but I was confused about the actual flavor for the mechanics until I realized what it meant
13:15:21 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82611&oldid=82593 * SunnyMoon * (+21) Finally, some non BF-like loops
13:18:51 <esowiki> [[Symbols]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82612&oldid=82611 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* Instruction Set */ Good thing there's an interpreter...
13:20:56 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82613&oldid=82605 * SunnyMoon * (+1552) Probably should add these too
13:21:31 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82614&oldid=82613 * SunnyMoon * (+8) Oh no
13:22:51 <esowiki> [[Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82615&oldid=42777 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+99) Fix apparent typo, cats
14:12:05 <les-citrons> thermionic valve
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15:49:12 <esowiki> [[Circuitrite]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82616&oldid=46985 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+2128) Move data here, as Moon allowed
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16:45:53 <b_jonas> les-citrons: no, it's called "Thermionic tube" in game
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17:59:11 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sanscicondos * New user account
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18:14:43 <Wezl> I made a 2D sandbox game, but it needs to be turing complete like minecraft. Any suggestions for a very small language I could put into it?
18:14:49 <Wezl> it's tile-based
18:15:07 <imode> forth?
18:15:49 <Wezl> there can't be global state or things like that, and it's on a fantasy console so there is a limited amount of state I can store on one tile
18:16:26 <Wezl> so I'm considering something like wireworld (cellular automaton)
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18:17:50 <imode> wireworld would be best.
18:18:03 <imode> interesting that you refer to it as a language instead of a cellular automaton.
18:18:07 <Wezl> source and videos available if it helps (you to answer my question for free :P)
18:18:20 <imode> it's on a fantasy console?
18:18:22 <imode> pico8?
18:18:46 <Wezl> referred to it as a language because I haven't decided on a cellular automata yet
18:18:58 <Wezl> tic-80 github.com/nesbox/tic-80
18:19:06 <ItzzMe> tic-80 yooo
18:19:13 <imode> neat.
18:20:10 <Wezl> one problem I can see for wireworld is that useful things take lots of space :/
18:21:22 <b_jonas> Wezl: does it really have to be Turing-complete, or just make practical computations possible? are you severely limited in the ROM, or only the RAM and CPU power?
18:21:51 <b_jonas> if you're not limited much in the ROM, then I recommend you add a large language, with lots of different primitives that you can build, though each should be easy to compute
18:21:58 <b_jonas> rather than a very small language
18:22:32 <b_jonas> however, consoles are typically heavily limited in CPU power, so global state and global instruction pointer might work better than a cellular automaton
18:22:50 <Wezl> limited to 256x256 tiles and 256 possible states for each tile (preferably using only a few of thos)
18:22:54 <b_jonas> with a cellular automaton you may have to update a significant portions of cells all over the map
18:23:06 <Wezl> true
18:23:13 <b_jonas> you might instead want to do something where only some sprites (not necessarily displayed sprites, but something limited in numbers) can update stuff around them
18:23:40 <b_jonas> these can be stationary buildings of course
18:23:49 <b_jonas> but the point is, you shouldn't allow to have too many of them active
18:23:58 <b_jonas> I don't think you want to iterate through all 256x256 tiles every frame
18:24:41 <b_jonas> they might also be marked on the map of course, but the point is that you shouldn't want to iterate over a map
18:24:44 * Wezl finally begins to see clearly
18:24:54 <b_jonas> but I don't know this particular console that you refer to, so it might differ
18:26:33 <b_jonas> I also recomment lots of builtins, because ROM is often cheap and dispatching on a jump table in ROM is also cheap
18:28:02 <Wezl> https://codeberg.org/Wezl/games/src/branch/main/sandpile0.1-demo.webm
18:28:11 <Wezl> this is what the gameplay looks like
18:28:58 <Wezl> it can't be really like a normal programming language because commands should be able to be placed like blocks
18:32:52 <b_jonas> Wezl: one thing you could do is allow a limited amount of buildings that are updated every frame, so you store extra information to them outside the map too, have directional wires between them, and for every building, precompute what it's connected to by the wires after the user builds wires, so you don't have to scan the whole map each frame. it's not perfect because it can cause slow updates when the
18:32:58 <b_jonas> user builds stuff, but in practice it tends to work.
18:33:07 <b_jonas> that also lets you keep more state for these buildings than typical map cells have
18:34:03 <Wezl> There are no monsters or anything moving except the player so I think I'll only update things when the player moves
18:34:48 <b_jonas> you said "Turing-complete" earlier though
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18:35:09 <Wezl> turing complete if the player keeps moving :P
18:35:46 <Wezl> I don't want the player to accidentally freeze everything (although running every frame would also fix that)
18:35:49 <b_jonas> so you want a grindy game where the player needs a turbo controller to win?
18:36:25 <b_jonas> I don't see the point of only computing something when the player moves
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18:37:07 <Wezl> well no, they can already win without computing anything :)
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18:38:55 <b_jonas> ah, you're compromising for the sake or marketing and making the game accessible to non-programmers. I hate how everyone does that. tons of videos that try to explain programming stuff as if the viewers were absolute dummies, not enoguh material that explain stuff assuming you do understand some programming but are interested about a particular topics.
18:39:00 <b_jonas> there was an article complaining about that.
18:39:30 <Wezl> I'm compromising for the sake of easy-to-make
18:41:24 <b_jonas> you can also make some buildings larger than one tile, to ensure there's a place to store more state directly in the map for buildings of which you want to allow a large number
18:41:38 <b_jonas> that doesn't solve the CPU problem really, only the RAM problem
18:42:00 <b_jonas> so, sadly, it's mostly useful for things like wires that you don't want to recompute per frame, but it's inconvenient to make wires large
18:42:13 <Wezl> (Which is a really bad motivation and what's the point really and no I don't actually need to make my game programmable and no I didn't plan ahead but ... handwave)
18:43:14 <b_jonas> that's fine, in the worst case your next game will be better
18:43:19 <b_jonas> that's how everyone learns
18:47:28 <b_jonas> I don't really know a good system for how wires should work anyway
18:47:47 <b_jonas> perhaps no wires might work better
18:50:01 <Wezl> <b_jonas> ... do something where only some sprites (not necessarily displayed sprites, but something limited in numbers) can update stuff around them
18:50:09 <Wezl> that's a good idea
18:50:44 <Wezl> I figured out a way that could work with the in-game system
18:52:04 <Wezl> so far, a tile has a height and a type (water, sand, snow)
18:54:00 <Wezl> with an item or button, a tile can be transformed from a material to a corresponding machine. When you bump against this (or use a machine that powers all the machines around it?), it takes its input as the height of the tile to one side and outputs on the other side
18:56:28 * Wezl pretends it's still related to esolangs
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19:16:39 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82617&oldid=82614 * SunnyMoon * (+508) This too
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21:15:16 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82618&oldid=82355 * Zero player rodent * (-1)
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21:47:42 <zzo38> Today is first time since I got a computer with Linux (which was many years ago) that I made a new Hero Hearts level, and this time, I am no longer limited to 256 classes, 512 images, 609 grid cells, etc.
21:56:16 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82619 * Zero player rodent * (+2616) Created page with "Skinny pig is an [[esoteric programming language]] specifically designed to be used by skinny pigs or guinea pigs. The guinea pig will "write" the program by doing the things..."
21:56:48 <esowiki> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82620&oldid=82618 * Zero player rodent * (+18)
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2021-05-05
00:22:11 <Sgeo> What quirk of DNS allows choosemyhat.com to be legitimate but www.choosemyhat.com to be cybersquatted? Also pinging... where's Gregor?
00:22:48 <Sgeo> Wait I guess that's not cybersquatting. It just... looks it?
00:23:16 <Sgeo> I could have sworn I've seen websites where one of them was squatted by a spammer and the other wasn't
00:23:19 <int-e> neither of those domains exist
00:23:33 <int-e> or I have a typo?
00:23:33 <Sgeo> uh...?
00:23:58 <fizzie> choosemyhat.com -> 71.19.155.102, www.choosemyhat.com -> 109.68.33.18.
00:24:01 <int-e> my bad, I omitted the final 'm'.
00:24:06 <int-e> yeah same here.
00:24:54 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't they be configured to the same address? I ... doubt Gregor would have pointed the latter away from his site?
00:25:14 <Sgeo> The FAQ links to the www version
00:25:38 <int-e> Well obviously there's nothing that says that www.foo.bar. has to be the same as foo.bar.
00:26:15 <fizzie> 71.19.155.102 reverse-resolves into libdl.so (which I think is Gregor's as well), the other one doesn't to anything.
00:26:57 <fizzie> As far as DNS quirks go, the thing that's called the zone apex (e.g., choosemyhat.com) is a *little* bit special, at least in the sense that you can't delegate it to a CDN with a CNAME.
00:27:23 <fizzie> There's a proposed HTTPS record type that solves that issue as one of its side effects.
00:28:13 <fizzie> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-svcb-https/
00:30:18 <int-e> Sgeo: well, bu the looks of it it is the registrar of the domain, not a squatter... I guess they add a default www.<domain> entry when a domain is registered?
00:31:19 <int-e> or maybe they have a cheap option where that entry is mandatory ;)
00:38:16 <int-e> Sgeo: anyway, switching registrars seems the most likely cause here, to me. Note that codu.org (which just forwards to Gregor's github) is similarly afflicted.
00:38:43 <fizzie> Maybe it's just a creative way to follow the no-www.org philosophy.
00:39:18 <int-e> :P
00:39:21 <zzo38> One reason why you might want a different address for "www" or not is in case there are reasons why they have to be different computers at different locations which are managed separately, although these days I would think to manage the computers together in one place, and use a router to switch them depending on the port numbers.
00:39:22 <fizzie> Leave the `www.` prefix to point at a macabre ad-riddled page people would rather not see, to condition them to start omitting the www.
00:42:24 <zzo38> (I don't use multiple domain names; I think just one is good enough for me. If I thought that I later needed to split the services across a computer that is somewhere else, then I might want to set up a separate domain name for it, in order that it can be easily changed, even if the address is initially the same.)
00:46:47 <fizzie> One setup that I think is semi-typical is to have `www.example.com` be a CNAME to something like `www.example.com.cdn.cloudflare.net`, so that example.com's authoritative DNS can be managed outside Cloudflare's name servers, but still let their CDN do the things they need to do to serve the content. But in that case you must point the root example.com name to something else, because it can't be a CNAME,
00:46:53 <fizzie> as discussed.
00:47:28 <fizzie> For example, at least from where I'm looking, www.mozilla.com is a CNAME to prod.refractr.mozit.cloud (which resolves to a couple A records), but plain mozilla.com by necessity just has those A records plus the other things (SOA, NS, TXT, MX, ...) you need at the root of a zone.
00:50:32 <int-e> surely that rule is artificial as the now-relaxed rules that a CNAME cannot point to another CNAME
00:50:48 <int-e> s/art/as art/
00:51:36 <fizzie> Well, maybe. But maybe not.
00:51:37 <int-e> (AIUI, it is now okay to have two indirections, and the reason for that is the energence of CDNs)
00:52:30 <fizzie> The thing is, CNAME is intended to alias the *entire* name, not just some records. But the root of the zone really kind of must have the SOA and NS records.
00:52:50 <fizzie> So it's definitely "less artificial" than the CNAME-to-CNAME rule.
00:52:55 <int-e> hmm. yeah that's a good point.
00:53:19 <esowiki> [[Dance machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82622 * Trump bot 2 * (+262) Created page with "''The title of this article is incorrect due to technical limitations. The correct title is still to be determined.'' This is a language based on choreography. The source code..."
00:54:57 <fizzie> You could maybe have the thing you point the CNAME at contain those other zone-related records, but I guess you usually wouldn't want to delegate those, you'd just want to delegate the "host" properties.
00:55:56 <int-e> no, you're right, I didn't take SOA into account when I called that rule artificial
00:56:13 <int-e> nor NS
00:56:52 <int-e> (and the other two you mentioned, though I'm less sure why they couldn't be delegated in principle)
00:59:53 <fizzie> I imagine they *could*, it's just that quite plausibly you might want to keep them separate. If you're really just interested in delegating A/AAAA of example.com for the purposes of HTTP(S) and maybe some other protocols, you wouldn't necessarily want to have to manage the email configuration of that zone through the DNS servers of wherever you're delegating to.
01:02:10 <fizzie> They had a proposal specifically for that (ANAME), but I feel like that maybe isn't really going anywhere: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-aname/
01:02:15 <fizzie> Yeah, listed as expired.
01:02:35 <fizzie> ANAME was supposed to be "like CNAME except only for address queries".
01:04:52 <fizzie> I imagine people must probably have also been fixing it on the DNS serving side, by making tools that let you say "automatically copy A/AAAA records from this address and serve them here".
01:05:27 <fizzie> Oh, I guess that's actually part of that ANAME proposal?
01:06:57 <int-e> "Implementation status"... sounds like it.
01:08:55 <int-e> Oh also part of the spec, yeah. I guess that's important because otherwise there's no way this would work in practice with existing software.
01:10:49 <int-e> Which maybe explains why this isn't going anywhere; at that point it's basically just a cosmetic change for a solved problem. (We can delegate A/AAAA records on the DNS server side; an ANAME record would just serve to make this fact transparent to other parties.)
01:54:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:New Army]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82623 * Trump bot 2 * (+66) Created page with "Please remember mai foan: ait ait ait ait nin to ait cevn fiv cevn"
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03:57:34 <b_jonas> whoa, I'm getting academic spam saying "Dear Colleage" instead of "Dear Professor". what happened to calling everyone a professor regardless of who they actually are?
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04:37:28 <zzo38> Maybe because now they are trying to write to someone who is not a professor, or maybe the recipient told them that they are not a professor so they changed it so that it doesn't say professor
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06:17:07 <esowiki> [[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82624&oldid=82610 * Trump bot 2 * (+56)
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07:05:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:New Army]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82625&oldid=82623 * Trump bot 2 * (+75)
07:06:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:New Army]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82626&oldid=82625 * Trump bot 2 * (+56)
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10:53:03 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82627&oldid=82468 * RetroPain * (-12)
10:54:31 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82628&oldid=82627 * RetroPain * (+40) /* Some other facts */
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11:10:10 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82629&oldid=82337 * RXVT100 * (-2189) /* Testing */
11:10:22 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82630&oldid=82629 * RXVT100 * (-1181) /* Konfyne */
11:10:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82631&oldid=82630 * RXVT100 * (-2591) /* kcufniarB */
11:10:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82632&oldid=82631 * RXVT100 * (-6299) /* Stackomp */
11:10:51 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82633&oldid=82632 * RXVT100 * (-28471) /* Ini */
11:11:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82634&oldid=82633 * RXVT100 * (-278) /* Bad title */
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11:16:26 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82635&oldid=82634 * RXVT100 * (+1145)
11:29:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82636&oldid=70195 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) cat
13:24:44 <esowiki> [[Countdown]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82637&oldid=54267 * Angel * (+24)
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14:42:31 <int-e> . o O ( Philosophical question: Can there be vandalism on a sandbox page? )
14:45:28 <int-e> why would Esolang_talk:Sandbox be in the Language category?!
14:45:45 <int-e> Languages.[1~Err,
14:46:11 <Taneb> That's a talk page for the sandbox page, right, rather than the talk page?
14:46:34 <Taneb> Which _definitely_ should't be in the Languages category
14:46:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82638&oldid=82636 * Int-e * (-24) Undo revision 82636 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]]) --This is not a language; I don't see how the category makes any sense here.
14:46:57 <esowiki> [[Defunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82639&oldid=80906 * Obvious * (+770) Addition about turing completeness (yay!)
14:47:21 <fizzie> Yeah. I'm semi-surprised putting a category tag on a talk page even works, but apparently it does.
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14:48:03 <fizzie> ("Esolang talk:Sandbox" showed up under S in the Category:Languages index.)
14:48:21 <fizzie> (It's gone now, of course.)
14:51:16 <int-e> I'm also dismayed to see that Trump bot has returned as Trump bot 2... I'm kind of worried whether https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:Hello_world_QR_code.png really says "Hello, world!"
14:52:49 <Taneb> It seems to be the literal text "Hello, world!"
14:52:58 <int-e> The obvious shenanigans are on https://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:New_Army of course.
14:53:13 <int-e> Taneb: thanks
14:53:15 <Taneb> I'm not convinced that QR codes count as esolangs
14:53:21 <Taneb> But that's a separate issue
14:53:48 <int-e> Sure, but I was more worried about the text being something entirely different. And I have no convenient QR scanner at hand.
14:54:01 <Taneb> I installed one the other day, by coincidence
14:57:23 <b_jonas> `? password
14:57:26 <HackEso> The password of the month is hiding in plain sight.
15:03:07 <int-e> Oh it's been a while since a brainfuck derivative made me chuckle: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Consequential
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15:48:22 <esowiki> [[A345120268A9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82640 * RXVT100 * (+2289) Created page with "'''A345120268A9''' is a tape-based language based off of [[brainfuck]] & designed by [[User:RXVT100]] ==Syntax== A345120268A9 has 13 commands, 12 not including np (NOP) eve..."
15:51:33 <esowiki> [[Swordfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82641&oldid=37091 * RXVT100 * (+0) /* Commands */
15:53:56 <esowiki> [[User:RXVT100]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82642&oldid=82577 * RXVT100 * (-369) Replaced content with "created [[A345120268A9]]"
15:54:33 <esowiki> [[A345120268A9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82643&oldid=82640 * RXVT100 * (+0) /* Syntax */
16:25:08 <esowiki> [[Chem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82644&oldid=78746 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-13) Remove redundant forcetoc
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17:44:34 <esowiki> [[DFA-er]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82645&oldid=82164 * Largejamie * (+676) /* Examples */
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18:20:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82646&oldid=82638 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) Fine, fine...
18:20:09 <esowiki> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82647&oldid=82527 * EnilKoder * (+75) added <=>
19:11:17 <zzo38> QR codes are not esolangs or a programming language at all it is a kind of 2D barcodes.
19:12:54 <zzo38> (Although, some esolangs may produce code short enough to encode on a QR code.)
19:34:46 <kmc> one time i gave my friend a birthday card that included a full x86 linux executable as a QR code
19:37:02 <esowiki> [[User:SunnyMoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82648&oldid=77985 * SunnyMoon * (-785) Useless update
19:55:48 <zzo38> What program is that?
19:56:07 <imode> neat.
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19:57:05 <kmc> it was just a little toy that rendered a colorful animation in the terminal
19:57:18 <kmc> and would respond to mouse movements using the terminal control codes for those
19:58:05 <kmc> i used some of the usual tricks to make it a small and self-contained binary (static, no libc, custom ELF header)
19:59:21 <imode> how large was it?
20:00:14 <kmc> i don't recall exactly
20:00:33 <kmc> few hundred bytes probably
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20:05:49 <fizzie> You can get up to 2953 bytes in a single (40-L) code. I had the occasion to look these up recently, was planning to back up some binary data on paper.
20:13:03 <zzo38> Would you also include the file name and hash as text on the page heading above the QR codes? Also, how many pages do you need?
20:17:10 <fizzie> It was just some keys. I think it would be just one page. I haven't got around to actually doing it yet. But printing a hash might be a good idea too.
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21:04:43 <ais523> I see there's been talk about the Trump Bot user
21:04:56 <ais523> I thought it was worthwhile to come here to chat to the other esolangs.org admins to see what to do
21:07:06 <imode> what's the Trump Bot doing?
21:07:45 <ais523> it's just a troll targeting esolangs.org
21:08:00 <imode> ban. :P
21:08:23 <ais523> we banned them already
21:08:26 <ais523> but they made a new account
21:08:33 <ais523> I'm going to ban the new one too I think
21:09:31 <imode> is it just replacing stuff with trump?
21:10:20 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Trump bot 2]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Abusing multiple accounts: already banned under another account
21:10:35 <ais523> no, mostly talkpage trolling
21:11:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Hello world QR code.png]]": created by blocked user while circumventing the block
21:12:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Hello world bar code.png]]": created by blocked user while circumventing the block
21:12:31 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82649&oldid=82617 * Ais523 * (-51) Undo revision 82603 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump bot 2|Trump bot 2]] ([[User talk:Trump bot 2|talk]]): blocked user circumventing block
21:12:48 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82650&oldid=82649 * Ais523 * (-52) Undo revision 82605 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump bot 2|Trump bot 2]] ([[User talk:Trump bot 2|talk]]): blocked user circumventing block
21:13:09 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Trump Bot/List of xkcd articles]]": userpage of indefinitely blocked user
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21:13:23 <imode> lmao, aight.
21:13:32 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Dance machine]]": created by blocked user while circumventing the block
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21:21:34 <ais523> as for categorising talk pages: you can do that and it's even useful sometimse
21:21:55 <ais523> Wikipedia categorises talk pages to say which wikiprojects work on the corresponding articles, for example
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23:47:44 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82651&oldid=82619 * Zero player rodent * (+143)
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2021-05-06
00:01:21 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82652&oldid=82651 * Zero player rodent * (+234)
00:04:52 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82653&oldid=82652 * Zero player rodent * (+98)
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01:02:29 <zzo38> I had recently read some of the NeWS documentation. There are a few good ideas (such as append to concatenate strings/arrays and arrayop which is similar to zipWith in Haskell, if I remember properly what I read about NeWS), although some things can already be done better in standard PostScript (maybe NeWS is too old?), some are probably not needed or done badly, some things are missing, etc.
01:03:33 <zzo38> Do you know?
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01:56:58 <esowiki> [[Duocentehexaquinquagesimal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82654&oldid=82212 * Makonede * (-4)
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02:06:17 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82655&oldid=82505 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+329)
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02:17:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82656&oldid=82655 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+402) You can put emoticons outside the edit summary like this) :-
02:22:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82657&oldid=82656 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+73) Have a good day /* ) */-
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02:39:36 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82658&oldid=82635 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+214)
02:45:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82659&oldid=82658 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+189)
02:51:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82660&oldid=82659 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+448)
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02:55:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82661&oldid=82660 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+120)
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06:03:05 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82662 * Ais523 * (+453) reply
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07:59:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82663&oldid=82662 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+296)
08:03:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82664&oldid=82661 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (-102)
08:09:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82665&oldid=82664 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+504) oNE MORER
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08:19:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82666&oldid=82665 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+508) More codes
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08:33:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82668&oldid=82667 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+174)
08:38:50 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82669&oldid=82668 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+499)
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08:48:18 <esowiki> [[Help, WarDoq!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82670&oldid=73598 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+149) Please check if I ruined anything. If yes, please fix it.
08:52:38 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82671&oldid=82669 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+286)
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09:19:53 <esowiki> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82672&oldid=82650 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+2602) /* A.R.T.I.C.L.E. */
09:20:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82673&oldid=82671 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+623)
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12:19:54 <esowiki> [[Help, WarDoq!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82674&oldid=82670 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-28) /* Language Overview */ Why is citation needed?
12:24:57 <esowiki> [[Hello]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82675&oldid=73519 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+143) /* Interpreter */ Quinepreter
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13:05:02 <esowiki> [[Forest]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82676&oldid=81803 * Hakerh400 * (-1) /* Syntax */ fix typo
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13:23:46 <esowiki> [[Lisparser]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82678&oldid=79672 * Hakerh400 * (-4) /* Commands */
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13:54:37 <nakilon> у / ý / ÿ / ŷ / ƴ / ȳ / ɏ / ỳ / ỹ / ỿ / ẏ / ẙ / ỵ / ỷ
14:01:39 <int-e> `unidecode ɏ
14:01:41 <HackEso> ​[U+024F LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH STROKE]
14:02:10 <b_jonas> nakilon: of those, у is used in many languages, ý is Icelandic, ÿ is a very rare letter in French, ŷ and ỳ are rare and probably only exist in Welsh, three more occur in Vietnamese, the rest are ones I probably never expect to see in real life because I don't do linguistics research
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14:06:48 <b_jonas> heck, "probably only exist in Welsh" is kind of misleading about Vietnamese letters
14:07:37 <int-e> (the U+024F is not in my font (still using the default X11 `fixed` font))
14:08:31 <b_jonas> int-e: it might be one of those things used in some phonemic transcriptions by linguists, but not in written language
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14:10:39 <b_jonas> or it could be one of those that a linguist once used for a new writing system of an obscure african language
14:11:04 <b_jonas> but it's in the pronunciation symbols block
14:12:05 <b_jonas> the block with ɑəɛɥʃʒ
14:12:47 <b_jonas> if you want a font for these, there's always `? fonts
14:12:49 <b_jonas> `? fonts
14:12:50 <HackEso> ​#esoteric bitmap fonts include: \oren\'s font http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm , lifthrasiir's font https://github.com/lifthrasiir/unison/ , b_jonas's font http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.pcf.gz , fizzie's font https://github.com/fis/rfk86/tree/master/web/font , FireFly's fonts http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/
14:14:26 <b_jonas> at some point I should update my font with more characters, not these obscure pronunciation symbols really but rather mathematical symbols, better looking greek, and basic support for Cyrillic
14:15:18 <b_jonas> (basic support means all letters in the modern Russian, Ukranian, Serbian Cyrillic, Macedonian, Bulgarian alphabets)
14:15:44 <b_jonas> and at some point I should finish the tiny (6 px tall) variable pitch font that I started
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14:31:57 <esowiki> [[Help, WarDoq!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82679&oldid=82674 * Ais523 * (+1) tags fix
14:32:16 <myname> i didn't know we have multiple fonts
14:32:54 <fizzie> Mine is very much optimized for the rfk86 port, which is why the only implemented characters are U+0000..00ff, 2190..2193 (4 most basic arrows) and 2500..257f (block drawing).
14:33:58 <ais523> I think ÿ might theoretically exist in English but not be present in any words
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14:35:52 <myname> oren's font is pretty advanced, i guess
14:35:57 <b_jonas> ais523: doesn't Asimov have a character named Noÿs in "End of Eternity"?
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14:36:08 <b_jonas> yes, oren's font is the most complete among these,
14:36:18 <b_jonas> though lifthrasiir's font comes second
14:36:19 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, and it's clear how it would be pronounced
14:36:37 <myname> is that one ligature really a hth?
14:36:44 <myname> that's hillarious
14:36:54 <ais523> looking for hyphenated words with a vowel before the hyphen and y afterwards, "one-year" seems to be the most common
14:37:23 <ais523> and "oneÿear" would be much easier to read/pronounce than "oneyear" would be
14:38:05 <ais523> hmm… we have some loanwords from Welsh where w is a vowel, so that might theoretically argue for the presence of a ẅ
14:38:22 <ais523> `unidecode ẅ
14:38:23 <HackEso> ​[U+1E85 LATIN SMALL LETTER W WITH DIAERESIS]
14:38:36 <b_jonas> ais523: http://blog.asimovreviews.net/2015/11/04/so-how-do-you-pronounce-noys-anyway/
14:39:21 <b_jonas> ais523: I usually put hyphens in compound words that would be hard to read without, even when the hyphen is nonstandard. the most common such case is "szemetes-zsák", normally spelled without a hyphen but I find that ugly
14:40:24 <b_jonas> I don't use diaeresis for such in English (in French it's fine)
14:40:42 <ais523> I use diaresis for it when I think I can get away with it, which is hardly ever
14:41:01 <ais523> "preëmptive" used to be common in books, but isn't any more (it's usually spelled "pre-emptive" instead nowadays)
14:41:42 <ais523> although, oddly, it isn't in the Google Ngrams data, I think they both got normalised to "preemptive"
14:41:43 <b_jonas> or at least I don't use diaeresis in new words, and don't us diaeresis in words like cooperate or coordinate where the spelling without diaeresis is common too,
14:41:59 <ais523> I think "coöperate" is only seen in #esoteric
14:42:21 <zzo38> At least, it is only where I have seen such spelling
14:42:30 <b_jonas> I might perhaps use diaeresis in a word that everyone writes with diaeresis, but I don't recall any such word in English (again French is different),
14:42:41 <int-e> when I learned english, the word "reuse" had me confused for quite some time
14:43:02 <ais523> "Noël" and "Zoë" used to universally have the diaeresis, but even those have been losing it recently
14:43:10 <int-e> but I've never learned the diaresis thing
14:43:38 <int-e> and you'd think they would use that when teaching english as a foreign language, sigh
14:43:40 <ais523> now I'm mentally pronouncing "reuse" under German pronunciation rules, it's almost unrecognisable
14:44:08 <b_jonas> I do sometimes use "æ" and "œ" in English words though: archæology, cornucopœia, pharmacopœia, mediæval
14:44:22 <int-e> though maybe they can't do that to germans because of the umlauts
14:44:31 <ais523> I've seen a discussion of these which argues that "æ" is correct in some words and "ae" in others, depending on pronounciation and etymology
14:45:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I write aether rather than æther, except possibly in the names of M:tG cards, but those M:tG cards have been errataed to use aether too now
14:45:42 <b_jonas> and I write mediaeval more often than mediæval
14:45:52 <ais523> obviously they should have used more non-ASCII letters to force their databases to work properly
14:45:52 <b_jonas> same for archaeology
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14:46:10 <ais523> Wikipedia says that "medieval" is now the most common spelling even in the UK
14:46:21 <b_jonas> ais523: oddly I don't think the æ caused a problem in their databases
14:46:34 <ais523> (whereas most æ's became ae in British English and e in American English)
14:46:37 <b_jonas> yes, I know medieval is the more common spelling, but I think that looks ugly
14:46:54 <ais523> also I hate the fact that you use 's to pluralize a letter, it goes against everything that people are taught about apostrophes and s's
14:47:20 <ais523> the books on English spelling/grammar I've read say that this is an explicit special case
14:47:28 <zzo38> I prefer to write plural letters like: "A"s, "B"s, etc
14:47:42 <ais523> yes, this is the programmer way to do it, I think
14:47:43 <b_jonas> the letters are tricky, the easiest would be to use one of the long form letter names, either the phoenician-derived ones or one of the many telephone alphabets
14:48:05 <b_jonas> so you could say esses, sierras, or sigmas
14:48:17 <int-e> Without quotes, "A"s cannot easily be distinguished from "as".
14:49:32 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if this means that to form a possessive from a letter, you use two apostrophes
14:50:42 <b_jonas> ayes, bees (yes, that's ambiguous, see also the relevant PBF strip), cees, dees, effs, gees, aitches or haitches, iyes, jays, kays, ells, emms, enns, pees (yes, pees, don't lauch), queues, arres (it would be "ares" but that already has like three different meanings), esses, tees, yous, vees, dubyous, exes, wyes, and zeds
14:51:32 <b_jonas> or alphas, bravos, charlies, deltas, echos, etc
14:51:54 <int-e> assholes, bitches, cunts, dicks... what would e be
14:51:56 * int-e runs off
14:53:26 <b_jonas> int-e: eggheads or #esoteric-regulars
14:53:33 <int-e> (This has been on my mind since I encountered the "r-word" (thanks to Twitch, who recently banned the word "retard"))
14:56:25 <b_jonas> int-e: funnily I have recently re-read the Christine Nöstlinger children's novel "Konrad oder das Kind aus der Konservbüchse", which does have a full alphabetic list of insults
14:56:45 <int-e> that's enticing
14:56:45 <ais523> presumably it wouldn't necessarily be an alphabetic list of /gendered/ insults, though
14:56:53 <b_jonas> the titualar character is insulted with them
14:56:54 <ais523> especially if it's a children's novel
14:57:00 <b_jonas> let me look it up so I can quote it
14:57:06 <b_jonas> I still have the book here
14:57:07 <int-e> ais523: I thought the 'a' was gender neutral :P
14:57:47 <ais523> ah yes
14:58:16 <b_jonas> well some of the insults might be age-specific too, these are for children because Konrád is 7 years old
14:58:17 <ais523> and it's a much weaker insult than the others (there are probably instances where it's meant as a neutral description rather than a negative description)
14:58:46 <int-e> it was the first thing to come to my mind for "the a-word".
15:01:04 <b_jonas> here it is, in translation by Bor Ambrus: “Alattomos bumburnyák, cickány, dinka, ebihal, findzsafej, gügye, gyagya, holdjáró, idióta, jancsiszeg, kecskebak, lótetű, lyukas kulcs, málészáj, népelnyomó, nyavalyás, orrszarvú, ökör, pipaszárláb, répafej, sajtkukac, szemétláda, töpörtyű, tyúkmellű, ukmukkfukk, üreginyúl, vesekő, zabszem, zsebgyerek.”
15:02:03 <b_jonas> some of those are dated or not a good match for Konrád or are rather weak in general, but it's an alphabetic list that is in-universe improvised by another child and with the constraint that some taboo words wouldn't be printed in a book back then, so given those contraints it's quite funny
15:02:07 <ais523> hmm, some of htose appear to be loanwords
15:02:18 <b_jonas> the book is from 1985
15:02:30 <b_jonas> loanwords? which one?
15:02:41 <b_jonas> oh yeah, idióta
15:02:58 <b_jonas> that one is a quite common insult so it does seem appropriate
15:03:02 <ais523> generally speaking, if a word isn't one of the 3-4ish native Hungarian words I know and I recognise it (and it's Hungarian), it must be a loanword :-)
15:05:40 <b_jonas> the book has some more choicy but non-alphabetic insults elsewher
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15:36:24 <zzo38> Do you like this (or have comments about) this Magic: the Gathering card design? {?} Instant ;; Two target permanents copy each other. Exchange control of those permanents.
15:36:43 <zzo38> (It might not seem like much, but actually, it is a lot.)
15:37:21 <Taneb> I don't know MtG very well, can you remind me what exactly "copy" does?
15:39:04 <zzo38> Copy changes the copiable values of some object to another object's copiable values; these are only layer 1 effects, and it does not copy anything from other layers, nor counters, attachments, ownership, initial text, etc.
15:39:25 <b_jonas> Taneb: it copies the base values printed on the card (or values a token were created with) and a very few later modifications (Artificial Evolution effects, other copy effects, effects like morph or transform that change which card face is shown, and Primal Clay effects), but not most other effecrts on the card (like Giant Growth)
15:39:55 <b_jonas> Taneb: there's no rule support for "copy each other", that would probably need a rules errata, but oh well
15:40:19 <Taneb> So, zzo38's design is good for a situation where my opponent has a card with a lot of counters on it (or other non-copyable things) and I want the counters to be on my card
15:40:48 <zzo38> I think Artificial Evolution is a layer 3 effect, not layer 1.
15:40:52 <b_jonas> Taneb: or you can use it if you just want to delay stuff by causing summoning sickness
15:40:59 <zzo38> Taneb: That is one thing, but it can be used for a lot more things than that.
15:42:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: sorry, you're right, Artificial Evolution effects aren't copied either
15:43:09 <b_jonas> I'd like fewer copy effects in general, because the mechanic is not worth the rules complications, and resent how Wizards started to put a copy effect in uncommon
15:43:19 <b_jonas> it used to be on rares only back when I played
15:43:56 <b_jonas> and I mean effects that copy permanents
15:44:13 <b_jonas> effects that copy spells are also complicated but less problematic
15:44:29 <zzo38> Well, I think what rarity a card should have can depend on the set; even if a card is one that would normally be rare, uncommon might make sense in some set (and vice-versa).
15:44:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, there are still permanent copy effects in rare too, it's not only uncommons
15:45:00 <b_jonas> but they started to regularly make uncommon Clone cards
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16:05:22 <esowiki> [[Grok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82680&oldid=81994 * AarMil42 * (+448)
16:16:28 <zzo38> You can also deflect spells, get out of combat, untap something to use it again, get rid of Auras, use it with removing one from the battlefield to reuse it, etc.
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17:26:32 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82681&oldid=82628 * RetroPain * (-12)
17:31:44 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82682&oldid=82681 * RetroPain * (+188)
17:33:19 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82683&oldid=82682 * RetroPain * (-64)
17:34:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kemuri * New user account
17:34:23 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82684&oldid=82683 * RetroPain * (+61)
17:39:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82685&oldid=82601 * Kemuri * (+192)
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17:41:54 <esowiki> [[User:Kemuri]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82686 * Kemuri * (+104) Created page with "Yeah, hi. I created a little language, inspired by brainfuck: [https://github.com/gXLg/jitejix jitejix]"
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18:57:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaveh Yousefi * New user account
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19:16:49 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dreamvoyager * uploaded "[[File:Rayuelaicon.png]]": rayuela
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20:06:08 <esowiki> [[2DFuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82688&oldid=77931 * SunnyMoon * (-1) *Confused confusing confiuson*
20:09:55 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82689&oldid=82054 * Olus2000 * (+2495) Added the ternary variant
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20:25:02 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck Assembly Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82690&oldid=82689 * Olus2000 * (+49) Link to "balanced ternary" wikipedia
20:35:10 <esowiki> [[User:Olus2000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82691&oldid=82048 * Olus2000 * (+53)
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20:52:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Brainfuck Assembly Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82692 * Olus2000 * (+345) Created page with "* I have zero idea how discussion pages should work ~~~~Olus2000 * I'm currently looking for ideas how to handle jumps in ternary BAL. I will elaborate if I remember and have..."
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23:33:27 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82693 * Dreamvoyager * (+6982) Created page with "[[File:rayuelaicon.png|thumb|The icon for Rayuela.]] {{infobox proglang |name=Rayuela |author=[[User:Dreamvoyager]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |refimpl=<coming soon> |class..."
23:34:10 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82694&oldid=82693 * Dreamvoyager * (-1)
23:34:21 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82695&oldid=82694 * Dreamvoyager * (-1)
23:36:06 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82696&oldid=82695 * Dreamvoyager * (+72) /* Snippets */
23:51:14 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82697&oldid=82696 * Dreamvoyager * (+55) /* What Everything Means */
23:51:38 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82698&oldid=82697 * Dreamvoyager * (+0) /* What Everything Means */
2021-05-07
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00:04:03 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82699&oldid=82698 * Dreamvoyager * (+275)
00:05:21 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82700&oldid=82699 * Xanman12321 * (+4)
00:05:48 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82701&oldid=82700 * Xanman12321 * (+2) fix
00:06:11 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82702&oldid=82701 * Dreamvoyager * (+88) /* Interpreter */
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00:06:49 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82703&oldid=82702 * Xanman12321 * (+41)
00:07:19 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82704&oldid=82703 * Xanman12321 * (+1)
00:13:02 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82705&oldid=82704 * Dreamvoyager * (-27)
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00:53:26 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82706&oldid=82705 * Dreamvoyager * (-1) /* What Everything Means */
00:57:45 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82707&oldid=82706 * Dreamvoyager * (+156) /* What Everything Means */
01:01:45 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82708&oldid=82707 * Dreamvoyager * (+26) /* What Everything Means */
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06:10:01 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82710&oldid=82673 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+294)
06:14:03 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82711&oldid=82502 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+180) /* Ideas for Names */
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08:03:13 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82712&oldid=82711 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+22) /* Ideas for Names */
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08:25:19 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82713&oldid=78642 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+312) /* Computational class */
08:35:45 <esowiki> [[A345120268A9]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82714&oldid=82643 * RXVT100 * (-3) /* Syntax */
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12:08:46 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82715&oldid=82709 * Dreamvoyager * (+1057)
12:17:13 <nakilon> X-files S5EP11 https://i.imgur.com/R5eSWDH.png
12:17:28 <nakilon> anyone knows what is this language?
12:19:02 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/d5yKwre.jpg
12:19:11 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82716&oldid=82715 * Dreamvoyager * (-33) /* Turing Completeness */
12:22:46 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82717&oldid=82716 * Dreamvoyager * (+95) /* What Everything Means */
12:58:57 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82718&oldid=82096 * SCKelemen * (+9) /* Recursion */
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13:00:59 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82719&oldid=82718 * SCKelemen * (+19) /* Pattern Matching */
13:02:17 <esowiki> [[Nomad]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82720&oldid=82719 * SCKelemen * (+10) /* Tic Tac Toe */
13:16:51 <fizzie> nakilon: Looks pretty Prolog-y.
13:19:25 <fizzie> Uppercase variables, the :- operator, comma-separated list of clauses terminated by a period, semicolon for a disjunction, ! as well -- if it's not plain Prolog, it's at least a derivative.
13:20:21 <fizzie> Oh, and doubling a single quote to escape it.
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14:04:36 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82721&oldid=82717 * Dreamvoyager * (+282) /* What Everything Means */
14:08:33 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82722&oldid=82721 * Dreamvoyager * (+2) /* Turing Completeness */
14:09:44 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82723&oldid=82722 * Dreamvoyager * (+6) /* What Everything Means */
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14:33:49 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82724&oldid=82723 * Dreamvoyager * (-902) /* Turing Completeness */
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16:05:08 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82725&oldid=82724 * Dreamvoyager * (+779)
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16:12:16 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82726&oldid=82725 * Dreamvoyager * (-10)
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16:15:14 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82727&oldid=82726 * Dreamvoyager * (+29)
16:15:39 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82728&oldid=82727 * Dreamvoyager * (+0)
16:16:42 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82729&oldid=82728 * Dreamvoyager * (+9)
16:17:00 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82730&oldid=82729 * Dreamvoyager * (-9)
16:44:49 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82731&oldid=82710 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+294) Link, cats
16:45:29 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82732&oldid=82731 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix cat
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18:33:54 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82733&oldid=82730 * Dreamvoyager * (-99) /* What Everything Means */
18:35:35 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82734&oldid=82733 * Dreamvoyager * (+27) /* What Everything Means */
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19:18:03 <esowiki> [[99 (Esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82735&oldid=78228 * SunnyMoon * (+2888) Told you I would finish this
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20:01:04 <esowiki> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82736&oldid=75700 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1727) Make page better
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20:43:15 <zzo38> I think that Ogg is too simple and the other formats are too complicated. It is why I tried to make up my own format
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20:55:36 <zzo38> What do you think of that?
20:56:03 <int-e> . o O ( WHY?! )
20:56:41 <int-e> `"
20:56:43 <HackEso> 1/2:178) * oerjan considered buying lutefisk, but apparently it cannot be prepared in microwave </bachelor frog> \ 567) <fizzie> If you jump a car from a ramp and hit the wall of a building, in midair, you tend to get ejected up and fly to the sky-ceiling, then slowly slide at that height to one corner of the world; then you land, make a complicated spinning-around thing for a while, and then explode. <fizzie> Also probably works in real life
20:56:52 <zzo38> Why is what?
21:00:50 <esowiki> [[Jitejix]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82737 * Kemuri * (+2531) Created page with "==Jitejix== An esolang created for fun. Pronounciated as <code>[d zh i t e d zh i k s]</code>. Inspired by Brainfuck. Probably not turing complete, who knows. The name was ch..."
21:01:04 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82738&oldid=82734 * Dreamvoyager * (+141) /* What Everything Means */
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21:07:37 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82739&oldid=82621 * Kemuri * (+14) /* J */
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22:05:17 <esowiki> [[Jitejix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82740&oldid=82737 * Kemuri * (+18) /* Instructions */
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22:54:40 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82741&oldid=82738 * Dreamvoyager * (-136) /* What Everything Means */
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23:03:05 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82742&oldid=82653 * Zero player rodent * (+156)
23:10:41 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tomhe * uploaded "[[File:Calc.jpg]]"
23:11:00 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82744&oldid=82742 * Zero player rodent * (+154)
23:37:56 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tomhe * uploaded "[[File:Func.fj.png]]"
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23:48:36 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82746&oldid=82744 * Zero player rodent * (+1)
23:53:47 <esowiki> [[Skinny pig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82747&oldid=82746 * Zero player rodent * (+493)
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02:50:13 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82748&oldid=82741 * Dreamvoyager * (+1834) /* Examples */
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04:13:48 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82749&oldid=82748 * Dreamvoyager * (-18) /* What Everything Means */
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04:29:19 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82750&oldid=82749 * Dreamvoyager * (+226) /* Hello, Rayuela! */
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05:10:10 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82751&oldid=82750 * Dreamvoyager * (-11) /* Hello, Rayuela! */
05:14:01 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82752&oldid=82751 * Dreamvoyager * (+1) /* Hello, Rayuela! */
05:20:18 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82753&oldid=82752 * Dreamvoyager * (+5) /* Full Programs */
05:27:28 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82754&oldid=82753 * Dreamvoyager * (+5) /* Hello, Rayuela! */
05:51:11 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82755&oldid=82754 * Dreamvoyager * (-14) /* Hello, Rayuela! */
05:54:46 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82756&oldid=82755 * Dreamvoyager * (+15) /* Full Programs */
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07:12:32 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82757&oldid=82578 * Zzo38 * (+539)
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07:57:12 <esowiki> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82758&oldid=82757 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+117) /* C */ Link added
08:06:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Tomhe * uploaded "[[File:Hello.fj.png]]"
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08:12:53 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82760&oldid=82713 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+215) /* Clear accumulator */ ) (Snippet
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08:13:10 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E.]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82761&oldid=82760 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+1) /* Clear accumulator */
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08:37:24 <b_jonas> dear spammers, if you send multiple variants of the same spam shortly one after another, that just makes it more likely that I'll throw them out. even if I were so stupid as to fall for one of those "you won 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 dollars, get your prepaid card now" emails, sending two simultaneously with different details just makes you look stupid
08:38:31 <LKoen> so I hear you have a few millions millions millions of dollars that you don't want
08:44:12 <b_jonas> LKoen: also professional spam as in invitations to publish in junk journals and conferences (though Covid reduced the number of conference invitations) and book series, a lot of random newsletters from online or in-person stores where I have shopped once and gave them an email address (bioszallito.hu seems to be the most prof... prol... sends them the most frequently),
08:44:34 <LKoen> prolific
08:44:49 <LKoen> yeah I get invites from predatory journals, too
08:44:51 <LKoen> it's flattering
08:45:51 <LKoen> also, about two or three years ago, I started receiving spam that was pretending to be from big companies
08:46:02 <b_jonas> multiple contradictory emails of the "your email account will be locked unless you confirm your personal data" type, and even a few copies of the "your computer has been hacked and I made video recording of you masturbating, please send me bitcoins" email in perfect (not google-translated) Hungarian
08:46:05 <LKoen> mostly amazon, facebook, my phone company, and flight companies
08:46:18 <LKoen> and all those look exactly the same (appart from which company they claim to be from)
08:47:10 <b_jonas> oh yeah, emails in the name of more banks than I ever hand contact with too, emails of "your package couldn't be delivered",
08:47:25 <b_jonas> and sometimes emails in languages I don't speak of which I can't determine what kind they're trying to be
08:47:26 <LKoen> oh that's funny
08:47:41 <LKoen> I read about scams that were about delivering unordered packages
08:47:52 <LKoen> like, you open your door, and there is a package on the doorstep
08:48:09 <LKoen> and for some reasons that helps them make money illegally (I couldn't understand the logic)
08:48:22 <esowiki> [[FlipJump]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82762 * Tomhe * (+14198) Initial FlipJump page :)
08:49:19 <b_jonas> a few months ago there was also a wave of SMS spam with "your package is on the way" and an URL, I've got several and I think they sent a lot in Hungary
08:50:02 <b_jonas> which makes sense because it's a good way to scam the older demographic who now start to get smartphones but can't use them
08:53:28 <b_jonas> but my favorite is still the dead-tree spam that I found taped to the door of my parent's house, a fake bill from some utility company (it's easy, water is still a monopoly, and while technically there are multiple companies you can contract with to get electricity or gas, most old houses still just have a contract with the successor of whatever the monopoly was), stating that they'll shut of the gas
08:53:35 <b_jonas> (or electricity, can't recall) if you don't pay the money to the bank account they give by today, and with the actual phone number of the gas or electricity company
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11:20:45 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CristianCantoro * New user account
11:28:52 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82763&oldid=82685 * CristianCantoro * (+191) /* Introductions */
11:29:48 <esowiki> [[User:CristianCantoro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82764 * CristianCantoro * (+159) +my user page
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12:44:24 <fizzie> I get spam for services that I think must be pretty niche. How likely is is for a random person to want to order "precision zinc and aluminum alloy die casting" for example? And even if you happen to hit a decision-maker in some business enterprise, are they really going to make purchasing decisions like that based on spam?
12:46:02 <int-e> Funny, that sounds vaguely familiar.
12:47:11 <fizzie> And that's not even close to the most obscure thing. How about "Re: Exclusive distributor of PTCA/PTA/ Introducer Sheat 0412"? (Which I think is medical equipment or something.)
12:47:14 <fizzie> It may be that these are scams of some other kind, rather than just plain advertisement, but I'd think they'd at least pick titles with a little more broad appeal.
12:48:09 <fizzie> Also on that list: "top10 Optical Fiber HDMI cables manufacturer", "TPU film updated offer", "5 axis CNC milling / Al/Zn/Mg die casting / plastic injection moulding", ...
12:48:27 <fizzie> And many emails about wire mesh.
12:49:09 <int-e> No, only the zinc and aluminium thing rings a bell here.
12:50:48 <fizzie> Hmm, should probably archive the contents of the spam folder off the IMAP server again, it's grown to 20324 messages.
12:51:16 <fizzie> Not sure why I'm keeping these, anyway. But storage is cheap, and maybe someday I'll want to build a very personal spam model or something.
12:51:28 <int-e> I was going to say... I delete spam :P
12:51:52 <fizzie> I just periodically slurp these off and compress them.
12:54:28 <fizzie> Sometimes they put the recipient address on the subject line, which sounds a little funny, when it's a role account of some sort. E.g. here's one titled "Disinfection robot bfjoust@selene.zem.fi".
12:54:46 <int-e> ^style spam
12:54:47 <fungot> Not found.
12:56:27 <fizzie> "AC DC motors Micro solenoid pumps and solenoid valves bfjoust bfjoust@selene.zem.fi"
12:56:42 <fizzie> bfjoust@ gets a lot of offers.
12:58:32 <fizzie> Oh, also on that note, webmaster@esolangs.org has an email from "an IT company In India" asking if we're "interested in Design or Re-design your website".
13:10:42 <int-e> that's more plausible
13:17:02 <fizzie> Also a logistics company from China, in case we're interested in shipping some esolangs merch I guess.
13:21:16 <int-e> Oh I remember getting spam for welding machines. Somehow they seem to have given up...
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14:47:24 <esowiki> [[Monicelli]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82765 * CristianCantoro * (+1083) +add page
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15:24:10 <esowiki> [[Monicelli]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82766&oldid=82765 * CristianCantoro * (-4)
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16:09:19 <esowiki> [[99 (Esolang)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82767&oldid=82735 * SunnyMoon * (+443) Forgot to add examples. (The programs I made were too long)
16:10:27 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82768&oldid=82739 * SunnyMoon * (+26) Thought I added this already :P
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16:11:46 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82769&oldid=82768 * SunnyMoon * (+0) The person who invented small letters shouldn't have existed
16:14:27 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82770&oldid=82756 * Dreamvoyager * (+365) /* Full Programs */
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16:19:11 <imode> are there any models of computation that have popped up in recent years that model distributed computation? i.e among multiple processors/nodes in a network without shared memory.
16:28:00 <esowiki> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82771&oldid=82104 * Tomhe * (+226) adding FlipJump
16:29:36 <esowiki> [[BitBitJump]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82772&oldid=74221 * Tomhe * (+15) adding FlipJump
16:31:32 <esowiki> [[TOGA computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82773&oldid=79384 * Tomhe * (+15) adding the similar FlipJump
16:32:50 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82774&oldid=82770 * Dreamvoyager * (+1) /* For a number abc, output abccba. */
16:33:21 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82775&oldid=82769 * Tomhe * (+15) adding FlipJump
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16:42:47 <esowiki> [[User:Tomhe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82776&oldid=80490 * Tomhe * (+38) revealing FlipJump
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17:28:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: aren't some of those obscure ads because you once bought in a store that sells something similar, and they sold your email address for targeted ads?
17:29:08 <fizzie> Maybe, but definitely not for the `bfjoust` address.
17:29:20 <fizzie> That must have been picked up from the web with no context.
17:30:28 <b_jonas> yeah
17:30:46 <b_jonas> because I know why I'm getting ads for books and medical equipment and sports equipment, those are particular stores that identify themselves
17:31:54 <b_jonas> the ones about drones, miracle cure for joints, and aphrodisiac, those I think are generic non-targeted ads sent to everyone
17:32:27 <b_jonas> so are the ones in the name of banks and paypal
17:34:54 <fizzie> Also that one that says "12,000 shed plans inside", which has been happening for long.
17:34:58 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/full_of_sheds.png
17:39:00 <imode> clearly you need a shed.
17:39:15 <imode> with 12,000 variations.
17:55:58 <zzo38> At least with the email I have set up, I only very rarely receive any spam at all.
17:56:50 <zzo38> (Although, I have sometimes received some. Sometimes when I did receive some more, I disabled that address. It was once about they have videos of me from my computer, which is impossible since I do not have a camera or microphone attached to my computer anyways.)
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18:36:10 <arseniiv> @t Refl
18:36:11 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? .
18:36:16 <arseniiv> @type Refl
18:36:17 <lambdabot> forall k (a :: k). a :~: a
18:36:35 <arseniiv> @thank lambdabot
18:36:35 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: thank you thanks
18:36:42 <arseniiv> @thanks lambdabot
18:36:42 <lambdabot> you are welcome
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18:45:51 <arseniiv> trying to get how to formulate path induction from HoTT in haskell, if that’s at all possible
18:46:03 <arseniiv> would we need DataKinds, eh
18:48:35 <arseniiv> if you try to write it based on inductions (folds) for your usual non-GADT types like Nat, [a], (a, b), Either a b, (), Void, you realise you get stuck at how to represent the :~: constructor which for I asked lambdabot for its type which isn’t that bad but it still doesn’t make much help
18:50:57 <arseniiv> ah, I think I see. It got too dependent in that book, it even has the usual natural number induction in a very dependent way, not just a -> (a -> a) -> Nat -> a, but a 0 -> (forall n. a n -> a (n + 1)) -> forall n. a n
18:51:22 <arseniiv> so I maybe just need to de-dependize the book version
18:54:26 <arseniiv> though I suspect then the resulting version of path induction will lose all its usefulness! Let’s check
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18:57:17 <arseniiv> @kind (:~:)
18:57:19 <lambdabot> k -> k -> *
18:57:28 <arseniiv> what else I expected
19:02:04 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is heavily guarded.
19:02:10 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is heavily guarded.
19:04:07 <arseniiv> something like this?.. foldPath :: (forall x :: k. a x x) -> (forall x y :: k. x :~: y -> a x y)
19:04:34 <arseniiv> am I right we may move forall x y out and make that explicit?
19:05:25 <arseniiv> foldPath :: forall x y :: k. (forall x :: k. a x x) -> x :~: y -> a x y -- or at least this way, as we can’t leave out k I think
19:05:39 <arseniiv> does it at all have any sense
19:06:48 <int-e> nothing has any sense
19:07:42 <arseniiv> and its definition should be something like `foldPath z Refl = z` and in this light it does indeed has a bit of usefulness in it!
19:08:49 <arseniiv> I dare we try. Dear lambdabot please don’t overheat
19:08:50 <arseniiv> > foldPath :: forall x y :: k. (forall x :: k. a x x) -> x :~: y -> a x y
19:08:50 <arseniiv> > foldPath z Refl = z
19:08:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:17: error: <hint>:1:17: error: parse error on input ‘=’
19:08:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:24: error: <hint>:1:24: error: parse error on input ‘::’
19:09:42 <arseniiv> I don’t understand, I’ll resume in private now
19:09:58 <int-e> there is no multiline input in lambdabot
19:10:10 <arseniiv> ah, right
19:10:16 <arseniiv> the error confused me still
19:10:50 <int-e> there's no '=' in the middle of an expression, and somehow the errors got out of order
19:11:38 <int-e> (lambdabot uses a separate thread per message, and evidently forks off concurrent mueval processes... the second one was faster)
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19:12:09 <arseniiv> I now think I completely forgot how do we define something together with type annotation in one line: > { ann; def } doesn’t work
19:12:57 <int-e> > takes and expression. @let is for definitions, though as long as you're playing around, just using the let ... in ... syntax instead is better
19:13:46 <int-e> > let foo 0 = 0; foo 1 = 1; foo n = foo (n-1) + foo (n-2) in map foo [1..10]
19:13:48 <lambdabot> [1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55]
19:14:41 <arseniiv> don’t worry, I’ll unlet everything later. Now I think I wrote `x y :: k` badly, it should maybe be `(x :: k) (y :: k)`
19:18:32 <arseniiv> it seems the correct typing is this: foldPath :: forall k (a :: k -> k -> *) (x :: k) (y :: k). (forall (z :: k). a z z) -> x :~: y -> a x y
19:19:26 <arseniiv> it compiles but I didn’t gave it a good expression
19:20:01 <arseniiv> I don’t immediately know for which interesting a we can make forall z. a z z
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19:27:54 <arseniiv> in the original, dependent formulation that’s way more manageable: (a :: forall (x :: k) -> forall (y :: k) -> x :~: y -> *) and (forall (z :: k). a z z Refl) and we return not just (x :~: y -> a x y) but (forall (p :: x :~: y) -> a x y p)
19:28:26 <arseniiv> hm no why would I say that’s more manageable
19:29:50 <arseniiv> but I missed the perfect example. Let’s take a = (->) !
19:31:40 <arseniiv> then we get proof transfer or something principle: foldPath id :: forall k x y. x :~: y -> (x -> y)
19:31:59 <arseniiv> well, not this way, but we can get x :~: y -> (p x -> p y)
19:32:18 <int-e> :t castWith
19:32:19 <lambdabot> error: Variable not in scope: castWith
19:32:29 <int-e> :t Data.Type.Equality.castWith
19:32:30 <lambdabot> (a :~: b) -> a -> b
19:32:45 <arseniiv> yeah I won’t be surprised it’s already there
19:33:06 <arseniiv> I mean, I’m not
19:33:53 <arseniiv> summer is coming and little flies or spiders are already a bit getting out of hand
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19:59:35 <esowiki> [[Jitejix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82777&oldid=82740 * Kemuri * (-12)
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21:18:10 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aurasphere * New user account
21:19:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dnm * New user account
21:21:47 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82778&oldid=82763 * Aurasphere * (+154)
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21:25:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82779&oldid=82778 * Dnm * (+332)
21:40:39 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82780&oldid=81575 * Dnm * (+763) Added Deadfish in Zeno
21:54:17 <esowiki> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82781&oldid=82780 * Dnm * (-1) /* Zeno */ Slight edits
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23:04:16 <esowiki> [[GomorraSQL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82782 * Aurasphere * (+6317) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=GomorraSQL |paradigms=[[:Category:Declarative paradigm|Declarative]] |author=[https://aurasphere.co Donato Rimenti] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |typ..."
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23:09:18 <esowiki> [[GomorraSQL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82783&oldid=82782 * Aurasphere * (-2)
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23:13:45 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82784&oldid=82775 * Aurasphere * (+17)
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23:44:18 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82785&oldid=82774 * Dreamvoyager * (-5) /* What Everything Means */
23:45:30 <esowiki> [[GomorraSQL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82786&oldid=82783 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-32) Use wiki link
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2021-05-09
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04:04:27 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82787&oldid=81292 * Gilbert189 * (+19) I've decided to put this into "Ideas" because... well, it's an idea.
04:18:13 <imode> I made $30k on dogecoin tonight.
04:18:27 <imode> nobody to celebrate with.
04:18:29 <imode> cheers.
04:30:56 <esowiki> [[Unfair]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82788&oldid=80516 * Gilbert189 * (+2) silly typo
04:33:07 <kmc> congrats imode
04:59:14 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC/Original Text]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82789 * Gilbert189 * (+4735) Created page with "<small>''a''</small> :''Note that this is only an example. The keywords, syntax, and any other should not be exactly like this.'' Horribly Translated BASIC is BASIC but horri..."
05:24:00 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82790&oldid=82785 * Dreamvoyager * (+879) /* Full Programs */
05:26:41 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82791&oldid=82790 * Dreamvoyager * (+3) /* Reverse Cat */
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07:19:23 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC/Original Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82792&oldid=82789 * Gilbert189 * (+58)
07:22:28 <esowiki> [[Talk:Horribly Translated BASIC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82793&oldid=80603 * Gilbert189 * (-4633) /* Original text */
07:23:27 <esowiki> [[Horribly Translated BASIC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82794&oldid=82787 * Gilbert189 * (+9)
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10:15:02 <esowiki> [[\BV]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82795&oldid=73619 * SunnyMoon * (+10) Just helping out
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17:03:40 <esowiki> [[Monicelli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82796&oldid=82766 * CristianCantoro * (+2212) +hello world example and refs
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21:44:39 <zzo38> I had idea of a new kind of copyright license, which does not add any further restrictions than if copyright laws and patent laws are abolished, and allows conversion to GNU GPL, GNU AGPL, and possibly some other licenses. Other kinds of restrictions are still possible, such as you are not allowed to add further restrictions. What do you think of such things like that?
21:45:10 <zzo38> Also it must still be approved by FSF and OSI, and probably also Debian.
21:50:02 <kmc> sounds similar to a public domain declaration or CC0
21:51:37 <kmc> although CC0 explicitly does not abandon patent or trademark rights
21:52:44 <kmc> I'm not sure you *can* abandon patent rights in an irrevocable way
21:53:11 <kmc> you can sign a contract with another party which gives them the right to use your patented inventions free of charge
21:53:32 <kmc> but i'm not sure that you can legally commit to never enforce patent rights against /anyone/
21:53:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: the licences I'd like to see are (1) one that's like the X11 license but that explicitly says that it gives you permissions forever and everywhere; and one that's like that but only applies starting from a time set in the future, i.e. the data is not free software, but it is guaranteed to be two years from now
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23:02:17 <zzo38> Is similar to public domain/CC0 but if it is public domain I think usually they can apply their own copyright to modified versions, so what I mention is a bit different
23:09:24 <kmc> it's hard to reconcile "no restrictions on derivative works" with "derivative works may not impose restrictions", which is a restriction on derivative works
23:10:09 <kmc> if you require that derivative works be shared under the same rules then it's a copyleft license, not a permissive one
23:10:29 <kmc> but that's very different from "no restrictions beyond what you'd have if copyright laws are abolished"
23:10:52 <kmc> copyleft is an application of copyright law
23:11:45 <kmc> if we abolished copyright law then it would be legal to share binaries of modified GPL programs without sharing the source, although anyone who did get the source somehow would be free to share it (ignoring possibly other things like trade secret law)
23:21:05 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vortetty * New user account
23:28:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82797&oldid=82779 * Vortetty * (+100)
23:29:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82798&oldid=82797 * Vortetty * (+68) fix my signature
23:35:04 <zzo38> Yes, I know those things.
23:37:46 <zzo38> I would hope that if the software is modified that source code is distributed too, although I do not believe that laws should enforce this or other restrictions.
23:52:53 <zzo38> (Including the possibility to relicense by GNU GPL is mainly for practicality, although it also means that if copyright laws are not abolished that someone who modifies the code can require others who modify it to share the source too when sharing the binaries. So, you still have that if you want it.)
2021-05-10
00:41:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think there is a Business Source License is similar but I think it applies GPL instead of X11 license after two years. (Maybe I am wrong; I don't really remember.)
00:42:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't like copyleft licenses.
00:55:02 <zzo38> I don't really like it either, due to their complexity of what is required etc, which is why I suggested a simpler one.
01:26:20 <esowiki> [[Dumpster Fire]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82799 * Vortetty * (+658) Created page with "==Overview== An interpreter can be found [https://github.com/Vortetty/dumpsterfire here] {| class="wikitable" |- ! find <container name> ! Finds a container to burn |- | op..."
01:26:41 <esowiki> [[Dumpster Fire]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82800&oldid=82799 * Vortetty * (+0) /* Overview */
01:27:42 <esowiki> [[Dumpster Fire]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82801&oldid=82800 * Vortetty * (+36)
01:28:32 <esowiki> [[Dumpster Fire]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82802&oldid=82801 * Vortetty * (+31)
01:29:10 <esowiki> [[Dumpster Fire]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82803&oldid=82802 * Vortetty * (+0)
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02:04:51 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82804&oldid=82479 * Vortetty * (+70) Add dumpster fire language
02:06:59 <esowiki> [[Dumpster Fire]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82805&oldid=82803 * Vortetty * (+55)
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06:20:10 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82806&oldid=82406 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+79) ITCH
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07:07:04 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82807&oldid=81618 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+180) /* LifeWiki */
07:10:33 <esowiki> [[EsoInterpreters]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82808&oldid=74302 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+198) /* Main table */ Game of life self-interpreter
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08:14:57 <esowiki> [[Absurd Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82809&oldid=79217 * SunnyMoon * (+5) A user, right?
08:15:18 <esowiki> [[Absurd Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82810&oldid=82809 * SunnyMoon * (+4) ...
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12:16:56 <b_jonas> fungot, have you noticed that people talk of torture devices, not torture machines, because machines came in during the industrial revolution, and by that time torture was already out of fashion?
12:16:57 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, may i give some brief replies to two specific questions to the president-in-office, if the council can learn something from that. in the third world war the transatlantic relationship and calls upon the commission to present this programme, which is good but also for the millions of tonnes of food aid: a new community vision of nuclear security, in both its objective and method. with regard to what we hav
12:32:20 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82811&oldid=82798 * Sanscicondos * (+224) Added my (Sanscicondos) introduction :)
12:32:55 <fizzie> fungot: How familiar are you with enhanced interrogation techniques?
12:32:55 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, last night i had a fnord. i am happy to be many and to end up with economic results which are too far removed from the resolution of problems, and quite rightly so including politicians and pensioners who, throughout their lives.
12:33:35 <fizzie> Quite rightly we'll include politicians and pensioners on the list of suspects.
12:42:52 <b_jonas> yes, politicians are suspect by default
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12:44:28 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82812 * Sanscicondos * (+74) Yo, page created.
12:51:01 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82813&oldid=82812 * Sanscicondos * (+317) Added my description
12:52:18 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82814&oldid=82813 * Sanscicondos * (+20) code in plus plus or bite the dust
12:57:25 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82815&oldid=82814 * Sanscicondos * (+148) MAGNUM OPUS
12:59:40 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Sanscicondos * uploaded "[[File:Cheese one.jpg]]"
13:00:28 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82817&oldid=82815 * Sanscicondos * (+59) added cheese portrait
13:24:37 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82818 * Sanscicondos * (+381) Page Created!
13:27:10 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82819&oldid=82818 * Sanscicondos * (+278) Extended Inspiration
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13:37:31 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82820&oldid=82819 * Sanscicondos * (+616) Further extending of Inspiration
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13:50:13 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82821&oldid=82820 * Sanscicondos * (+864) Created syntax table
13:53:21 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82822&oldid=82817 * Sanscicondos * (-18) Linked Cheese to its page
13:59:42 <esowiki> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82823&oldid=82791 * Dreamvoyager * (-44) /* What Everything Means */
14:02:18 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82824&oldid=82821 * Sanscicondos * (+298)
14:19:16 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82825&oldid=82824 * Sanscicondos * (+2481) Started the Hello World Example
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14:46:45 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82826&oldid=82825 * Sanscicondos * (+418) Finished the "Hello World" Example
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15:05:21 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82827&oldid=82826 * Sanscicondos * (+93) Added Current Versions Tab
15:07:32 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82828&oldid=82827 * Sanscicondos * (+48) Updated Versions Tab
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16:45:09 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82829&oldid=82828 * Sanscicondos * (+886) Added Bug Reporting Tab, Updated Versions Tab, Added Downloads Tab
16:49:18 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82830&oldid=82829 * Sanscicondos * (+12) Edited description
16:51:52 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82831&oldid=82830 * Sanscicondos * (+45) /* Downloads */ Added note
16:56:48 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82832&oldid=82831 * Sanscicondos * (+474) /* Bug Reports */ Added the description and example post.
16:57:48 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82833&oldid=82832 * Sanscicondos * (+145) /* Bug Reports */ Added signature
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17:36:56 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82834&oldid=82833 * Sanscicondos * (+88) Added Github Link in downloads section
17:37:46 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82835&oldid=82834 * Sanscicondos * (+1) /* Versions */ formatting
17:38:21 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82836&oldid=82835 * Sanscicondos * (+10) /* Hello World */ small description changes
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17:44:29 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82837&oldid=82836 * Sanscicondos * (-5)
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17:52:58 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Carlk * New user account
17:57:42 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82838&oldid=82811 * Carlk * (+203) Carl's intro
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18:01:16 <esowiki> [[Subleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82839&oldid=82158 * Carlk * (+73) External reference to SUBLEQ in Excel
18:01:33 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82840&oldid=82838 * Carlk * (+73) Carl's intro
18:02:16 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82841&oldid=82840 * Carlk * (-98)
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19:11:24 <esowiki> [[User:Dreamvoyager]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82842&oldid=82481 * Dreamvoyager * (+9) /* esolangs i made */
19:11:31 <esowiki> [[User:Dreamvoyager]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82843&oldid=82842 * Dreamvoyager * (+1) /* esolangs i made */
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21:24:13 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82844&oldid=82837 * Sanscicondos * (+22)
21:24:42 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82845&oldid=82844 * Sanscicondos * (-22) Undo revision 82844 by [[Special:Contributions/Sanscicondos|Sanscicondos]] ([[User talk:Sanscicondos|talk]])
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2021-05-11
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00:50:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Trump bot 3 * New user account
00:51:39 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82846&oldid=82841 * Trump bot 3 * (+122) /* Introductions */
00:52:25 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82847&oldid=81720 * Trump bot 3 * (-18) Nationality no longer exists
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01:12:48 * pikhq waves
01:15:46 <zzo38> Hello
01:16:08 <pikhq> hi
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02:07:03 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82848&oldid=82847 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+88) Undo revision 82847 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump bot 3|Trump bot 3]]) ([[User talk:Trump bot 3|talk]]) (Text might be offensive) (/* Tag */ Undo
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03:01:43 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy/Aheui alphabet]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82849 * Trump bot 3 * (+411) Dath sntnce wrning
03:02:48 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82850&oldid=82848 * Trump bot 3 * (-34) I told you that the Chins nationality does not exist
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03:17:10 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82851&oldid=82396 * Largejamie * (+4)
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03:53:17 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:ColorfulGalaxy/Aheui alphabet]]": created by blocked user while circumventing the block
03:54:51 <esowiki> [[User talk:Trump bot 3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82852 * New Army * (+33) Created page with "What did you say on my talk page?"
03:54:53 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Trump bot 3]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled): Abusing multiple accounts
03:55:31 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82853&oldid=82850 * Ais523 * (+34) Undo revision 82850 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump bot 3|Trump bot 3]] ([[User talk:Trump bot 3|talk]]) edit by blocked user circumventing the block
03:56:14 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82854&oldid=82846 * Ais523 * (-122) Undo revision 82846 by [[Special:Contributions/Trump bot 3|Trump bot 3]] ([[User talk:Trump bot 3|talk]]) edit by blocked user circumventing the block
03:57:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:111.17.214.112]] with an expiration time of 1 month (account creation disabled): IP being abused to create multiple accounts in circumvention of a block
03:59:27 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:Trump bot 3]]": not useful to communicate with a banned user, especially not on the talk page of a sockpuppet account
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08:11:10 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82855&oldid=82657 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+237) /* Euler's birthday is coming. */
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08:14:28 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82856&oldid=82855 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+39) /* Euler's birthday is coming. */
08:20:37 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82857&oldid=82732 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+30) From CoffeeHax's introduction
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08:49:10 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy/Google mirror]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82858 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+1649) Not completed yet
08:51:07 <esowiki> [[User talk:Heavpoot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82859&oldid=81914 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+235) /* Please help me with the tricks for my Google mirror simulator */ new section
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09:46:08 <b_jonas> fungot, what is your favorite matrix norm?
09:46:08 <fungot> b_jonas: the commission' s position with regard to the first group consists of the only parties, along with the view that we would discuss this prior to voting.
09:46:29 <b_jonas> that is a reasonable position
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12:03:48 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82860&oldid=82845 * Sanscicondos * (-2) formatting
12:04:28 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82861&oldid=82860 * Sanscicondos * (+0) /* Versions */
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12:21:17 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82862&oldid=82861 * Sanscicondos * (-11) Removed vAlpha1.3 while not avaliable
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12:32:39 <int-e> that UZG...SIr string near the top of the sandbox page bothers me... is it meaningless or is it a base62 encoded message? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox (unfortunately there does not seem to be any standard base62 format... a quick search has turned up two conventions for the digits already: 0-9A-Za-z and 0-9a-zA-Z)
12:33:43 <int-e> of course the whole sandbox page is weird, so whatever
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12:47:53 <b_jonas> fungot: has HackEso's coins predict dogecoin before it became popular, and if so, does that make HackEso a hipster?
12:47:53 <fungot> b_jonas: the berlin summit, which, unfortunately, but it is not possible, at this stage, europe' s fnord every month. i should now like to confine myself to six of the proposed amendments of the cerdeira fnord report are based on real facts. and everything else which has been strengthened and clarified to very positive effect by the european union
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12:57:25 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82863&oldid=82862 * Sanscicondos * (+107) Added usable starting tab to syntax
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14:21:31 <fizzie> `coins 10
14:21:34 <HackEso> piggercoin litiecoin sulacoin bosotiacoin coveralcoin repremcoin nevicoin adhacoin eclamcoin mancoin
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18:04:02 <cGIfl300> lol, it exist :)
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20:53:30 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82864&oldid=82851 * Largejamie * (+0)
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21:40:43 <nakilon> b_jonas I use to listen the stream too, sometimes when I go sleep
21:41:21 <nakilon> also used to go sleep while listening to Red Alert 2 gameplay
21:42:58 <nakilon> I have an idea that after some machine learning you can simulate it -- using game sound samples you can simulate the game, each stage of it
21:43:36 <nakilon> "ASMR gameplay sound simulator for fans"
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21:57:31 <int-e> pfft: https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2021-32471
21:59:10 <fizzie> Heh. Just because it started with CVE-, I thought it would've been about that Wi-Fi thing that's been making the rounds recently.
21:59:24 <fizzie> That's a lot more on-brand for us though.
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22:03:05 <zzo38> I didn't know they have CVE for Universal Turing Machine; well, now I know.
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22:09:57 <b_jonas> int-e: lol
22:10:27 <b_jonas> there's a full article linked
22:10:51 <int-e> yeah I'm actually reading that right now (though not in full detail)
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22:23:51 <int-e> Okay, I did enjoy the phrases "cognitive complexity" and "so unquestionably saunters" :-)
22:25:16 <int-e> And the attack is of some minor theoretical concern... you have to be careful of invalid inputs when doing things like diagonalizing over all Turing machines.
22:27:35 <int-e> (And by "theoretical concern" I mean, of course, that it concerns people working in computability theory :-) )
22:29:53 <b_jonas> makes sense
22:39:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Slendi * New user account
22:43:44 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82865&oldid=82854 * Slendi * (+167) /* Introductions */
23:11:19 <esowiki> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82866&oldid=82864 * Largejamie * (-15) /* Computational Class */
23:14:41 <arseniiv_> recently I dabble several minutes to half a hour of lazy mental effort in hyperbolic geometry, again, and in esoteric parts of it
23:15:25 <arseniiv_> like, how many ends a straight line has? Two, but beware an euclidean one has just a single one
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23:21:10 <arseniiv> or, what geometry is on the absolute? One may first think that the absolute is an artifact of models of this geometry, but when transforming the space, the absolute undergoes the same transformations regardless of a model which we use, be it one of circle models, a half-plane conformal model or maybe the best of all, hyperboloid-in-Minkowski-space model, in which case the absolute is the sky sphere or whatsitcalled. And in this last case
23:21:10 <arseniiv> it’s obvious the cone is acted on by the same O⁺(1, n) group the hyperboloid and all the rest of Minkowski space areor, what geometry is on the absolute? One may first think that the absolute is an artifact of models of this geometry, but when transforming the space, the absolute undergoes the same transformations regardless of a model which we use, be it one of circle models, a half-plane conformal model or maybe the best of all, h
23:21:10 <arseniiv> yperboloid-in-Minkowski-space model, in which case the absolute is the sky sphere, a projectivization of the null cone (or light cone)
23:23:48 <arseniiv> and in this case it’s obvious the sky sphere (hm I’m afraid I remember its name wrong, but it’s definitely not a heavenly sphere) is not a stranger here: it’s acted on by the same O⁺(1, n) the rest of the Minkowski space is (including our beloved hyperboloid which we used to cut all other transformations out)
23:26:14 <arseniiv> and then look at the sky: it seems it’s changed by different hyperbolic transformations in different ways, I mean its own symmetry group is also the same O⁺(1, n) — as it seems. So what geometry is that? It’s not hyperbolic, this thing is compact
23:27:58 <arseniiv> it’s not euclidean either (we might think that based on it being an “apparent” limit of concentric/parallel horospheres, the other being their center/end; horospheres by themselves are euclidean)
23:30:13 <arseniiv> it’s not elliptic too, as there are too many symmetries. I bet a physicist will say something conformal something, though barring the case of 2D absolute where, as we know, there are too many conformal transformations (thanks to complex numbers IIRC), but maybe it should be called an inversive geometry or something?..
23:32:57 <arseniiv> now, are there some remnants of metric structure left after all that? It had angles but they got garbled by lorentzian boosts. But something should have remained. Well I fear what remains is exactly that unfamous riemannian conformal structure, which means the riemannian metric upto (uniform) scalings
23:33:15 <arseniiv> sorry, I’m finished now!
23:33:29 <arseniiv> I hoped someone would find this reading interesting
23:33:39 * int-e watches a bit of https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius8.html
23:35:11 <arseniiv> int-e wow this is really watchable
23:35:14 <int-e> (it's called moebius because translations in that particular model of the hyperbolic plane are moebius transformations)
23:35:36 <arseniiv> yep yep when we lay that all in ℂ we get those!
23:40:57 <arseniiv> on that note, did you know they LIED to you in the kindergarten by naming both euclidean translations and hyperbolic translations the same word? They are totally different things! Horolations are the same as translations, and hyperbolic translations are this new element we get by lowering the curvature, analogous to how we get translations when we move to euclidean space from elliptic space where there are only rotations. And then rotati
23:40:57 <arseniiv> on groups stay the same all the way, likewise with euclidean translation groups which continue their life as horolation groups. And hyperbolic translations have very lonely one-dimensional existence. As soon as we combine two different ones, the group grows to include other types of transformations. Which is good but we were doing classification
23:42:17 <arseniiv> I like how I can sound crackpotish by saying all that and still it would be perfectly mathematical, just a bit obscure and special, and not too interesting or new to be discussed widely
23:43:18 <arseniiv> but I *like* to say that euclidean lines are one-ended. That’s, how to put it, rebel-y? hm not that
23:45:06 <int-e> arseniiv: I don't know what you just said. I do know that actually achieving the tiling was not nearly as pretty as it is in Euclidean space.
23:45:52 <arseniiv> also I like to call euclidean geometry names, namely “degenerate”, which it is because it’s parabolic, and more graphically, that group of its similarity transformations is bigger than its isometries, which for both other constant-curvature riemannian space types, is not so
23:46:19 <arseniiv> int-e: do you mean, numerically? I think yes there are problems which would crop up no matter how do you calculate
23:47:25 <arseniiv> like, if we are to use unbounded rationals, then they would grow too fast, I presume
23:48:30 <int-e> well you can cheat in the margins :)
23:48:47 <arseniiv> int-e: did you use coordinates, and then which ones? Though now I think you meant achieving no harring gaps was a hard thing, and I agree it should be, probably
23:49:16 <arseniiv> yeah margins are that thing, I heard some people cheating at them too, and also again perfectly reasonable
23:50:34 <int-e> arseniiv: My coordinates are complex numbers in the unit circle. And given a target point I'm just shifting it closer to the origin 17 times (magic number?) and everything too far away will be black, I think...
23:51:19 <int-e> so it's a massive cheat :P
23:52:16 <arseniiv> (also did I tell that hyperbolic space is really scary? I seemed to manage to realize one pretty scary group as its isometries. The group where you wouldn’t return close to home if you make mistake in de-applying just one element. I don’t remember the definition exactly)
23:53:03 <arseniiv> ah, yeah, I should have realized they are complex numbers, you plainly mentioned Möbius transformations before and I even nodded
23:54:19 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius8_3s.html is what I'd get with 3 instead of 17 steps... it's cut in its own way, I suppose
23:54:49 <arseniiv> int-e: how do you paint a pattern on the tiles, do you just slide a tile on some image or do you generate things in more complex ways?
23:56:14 <int-e> it takes a sector out of https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/moebius.png... and that sector is slowly rotating which results in the kaleidoscopic(sp?) effect
23:56:22 <arseniiv> moebius8_3s.html looks very strange. Now I know I imagined your algorithm a wrong way
23:56:52 <int-e> FWIW, it looks strange to me, too :P
23:57:01 <arseniiv> int-e: oh, just like that easy, whew
23:57:45 <arseniiv> may I draw an alternative circle for you later this day (when I’ve slept)?
23:58:02 <arseniiv> with more acidity
23:58:10 <arseniiv> or how it would be called
23:58:45 <int-e> arseniiv: you can copy the html file and play around with it yourself :)
23:58:59 <arseniiv> ah, that easy
23:59:09 <arseniiv> I definitely should
23:59:30 <int-e> it just loads a moebius.png file as a texture relative to its location
2021-05-12
00:00:13 <int-e> and the shader code is included in the html[1~[3~[3~[3~[3~
00:00:33 <int-e> nice job, irssi
00:00:53 <arseniiv> thanks for company as always. I should be active in the channel in earlier hours
00:00:53 <arseniiv> what did you write originally?
00:02:58 <arseniiv> also do you maybe know any tutorial how to stop being afraid of modern JS and write neat little browser things like a sound generator which uses FFT. Oh. FFT on JS. I better un-ask that entire thing back
00:03:06 <int-e> oh I wrote the text, but then I wanted to edit something... the [1~... stuff is all VT100 keyboard codes minus the escapes
00:04:20 <int-e> (I was lagging (yes, in 2021) and pressed 'return' and irssi somehow stops interpreting keys when it sees a return in the same packet, or something like that)
00:05:20 <arseniiv> oh well. Anyway have a good time of morning!
00:05:22 <int-e> And no, I can't really help with modern JS... I've not progressed beyond fairly simple self-contained code.
00:05:41 <int-e> So anything that would involve libraries... I don't know anything about.
00:05:52 <arseniiv> I’m just afraid of JS because it’s inherently badly designed :(
00:06:08 <int-e> oh I think it's not so terrible
00:06:21 <arseniiv> I hope
00:06:41 <int-e> the DOM gives me nightmares, JS is just a relatively straightforward prototype based language... note that's a few versions back
00:08:00 <int-e> Recently they've changed to something that is closer to classes and are adding modern stuff like closures. And then they're transpiling it to something browsers can actually run, or so. And while you're doing that, why not add types? So you get stuff like TypeScript.
00:08:08 <int-e> All of which I know exists but haven't touched.
00:08:40 <zzo38> There is a class block now, although I still think the prototype-based inheritance is better, in my opinion.
00:10:15 <int-e> arseniiv: Regardless, I'd disagree that it was badly designed :P You just have to realize that it's a distinct programming paradigm from the usual class-based OO. And yes, it's mostly untyped and fairly dynamic so you can get yourself into a terrible mess very easily.
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01:37:30 <nakilon> I now wonder how did I know about that Minsky CVE report before it got to this channel
01:40:39 <imode> HN featured it.
01:41:30 <nakilon> ah, https://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/
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03:25:21 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82867&oldid=82663 * New Army * (+159)
03:25:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:ColorfulGalaxy/Google mirror]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82868 * New Army * (+24) Created page with "Where is the google logo"
03:40:51 <esowiki> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy/Google mirror]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82869&oldid=82858 * ColorfulGalaxy * (-42)
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05:24:12 <kmc> `coins
05:24:17 <HackEso> fraymumocoin nietcoin thracoin castepcoin anotcoin hackcoin evicecoin boolfscocoin gibucoin bullcoin thaifcoin blangtoncoin sumacoin ttyrnetcoin flagecoin vamusslcoin bucrccoin novcoin verthicoin scequarencoin
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12:20:07 <arseniiv> int-e: hm it seems both firefox and chrome don’t want to load a local moebius.png
12:20:33 <arseniiv> @messages
12:20:33 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
12:22:03 <int-e> huh
12:26:24 <fizzie> file:/// can definitely be like that when it comes to loading resources.
12:26:32 <int-e> But right... I remember vaguely that I set up a local webserver.
12:26:45 <int-e> Because battling the client became too hard. It's been a while :P
12:27:04 <fizzie> Yeah. I tend to go with `python3 -m http.server 8000` for playing around with HTML locally.
12:27:26 <fizzie> (It defaults to just serving the current directory.)
12:27:53 <int-e> I have apache2 *and* lighttpd running, isn't that fun :)
12:28:45 <fizzie> I do have an nginx instance running as well, but it would require either configuring or remembering where its document root is, the Python thing is easier for one-offs. I've got the command aliased as `serve_http`.
12:29:21 <int-e> "remember where the document root is" <-- ~/public_html is good enough ;)
12:29:45 <int-e> but eh, we're firmly in personal quirks territory.
12:29:59 <fizzie> Good old public_html.
12:31:04 <arseniiv> I see an error in the console: WebGL warning: tex(Sub)Image[23]D: Cross-origin elements require CORS.
12:31:04 <arseniiv> so possibly it’s fixable?..
12:31:28 <arseniiv> also thought that on file://
12:31:46 <int-e> arseniiv: if you figure out how to provide a HTTP header with file://...
12:31:53 <int-e> ;)
12:32:13 <fizzie> Probably you can't, anyway. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/CORS/Errors/CORSRequestNotHttp
12:32:31 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Yeah. I tend to go with `python3 -m http.server 8000` for playing around with HTML locally. => oh, that should come in handy!
12:32:34 <int-e> Also, disabling cors seems to have no effect, so I suspect there's another hurdle down the road.
12:33:25 <fizzie> Just to be clear, `python3 -m http.server 8000` may not be the best idea if you have untrusted local users and/or no netfilter rules or such restricting incoming connections. :)
12:33:27 <int-e> sorry, s/have[4~not help/ no effect/
12:33:31 <int-e> grmbl
12:33:43 <int-e> sorry, s/have no effect/not help/
12:34:21 <fizzie> You should've had the second s/// to fix the first one, they get more amusing that way.
12:36:18 <arseniiv> :D
12:36:20 <b_jonas> if a language has easy syntax for a sort of string literal that isn't an expression that gives a string, but is just printed to the debug console when it's executed, what do you call that? "debug literal"? "debug comment"?
12:36:50 <b_jonas> the program can't otherwise access it, eg. can't take its length or index into it
12:36:59 <int-e> Ah... I remember why I have two webservers... lighttpd came first and was meant for things like webgl that load resources through javascript; the apache2 came in later because I needed to figure out some mod_proxy/mod_rewrite shenanigans
12:37:01 <arseniiv> <fizzie> they get more amusing that way. => I did that with asterisk version a while ago
12:37:16 <b_jonas> but it's a literal in that most characters are interpreted verbatim in it in the source code
12:37:34 <b_jonas> as in passed to the debug console
12:37:56 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I’d went with debug literal, looks transparent
12:38:24 <int-e> fizzie: fortunately, the first s/// didn't match anything :P
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12:40:33 <int-e> Oh, toggling the privacy.file_unique_origin setting in Firefox *does* work. (Setting name from fizzie's link.)
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12:41:40 <int-e> (But I won't make that permamnent.)
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12:44:25 <arseniiv> reasonable!
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13:06:50 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82870&oldid=82863 * Sanscicondos * (+12) /* Bug Reports */
13:09:15 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cheese]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82871 * Sanscicondos * (+243) Created page with "==Bug Reports== ===Know Bugs As of Version [Alpha 1.3]=== *If a character or string is assigned to an integer only variable, which all variables in Cheese Squared are right n..."
13:09:26 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82872&oldid=82871 * Sanscicondos * (+1)
13:10:33 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82873&oldid=82870 * Sanscicondos * (+14) /* Bug Reports */
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13:18:26 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82874&oldid=82822 * Sanscicondos * (+378) Added Teaser Tab
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14:13:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, not only two ends of a line, but a lot more missing points outside them. the projective plane is much more important to understand the structure of the hyperbolic plane than to understand the Euclidean plane, because there are much more real points missing.
14:14:35 <b_jonas> of course it helps if you have a whole euclidean/hyperbolic space so you can see a euclidian/hyperbolic plane in it projectively
14:16:32 <arseniiv> b_jonas: erm I wouldn’t say they miss any points, just that they go two separate directions each on each side, instead of one
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14:47:16 <b_jonas> fungot, can you be comfortable with tricks of light?
14:47:17 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, firstly, it will have a board. you are quite right to tick off the progress of the agreement are now fewer in number but better equipped administratively and extended by means of their own quality control systems and provides for possibilities of appropriate action in the short term? a few years there has been a long time thinking about where the roots of the evil. we are aware, on 9 april for a deferment
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15:10:12 <fizzie> Is that a Hitchhiker's reference to the bit about Hactar?
15:11:32 <fizzie> "'I have nothing to offer you by way of hospitality,' said Hactar faintly, 'but tricks of the light. It is possible to be comfortable with tricks of the light, though, if that's all you have.'"
15:16:08 <arseniiv> what part is it from? Though I read only a translation, and binged, so it all clumped together and is quite almost all forgotten now
15:18:08 <arseniiv> BTW about hyperbolic conspiracy: I know how to call hyp. translations: boosts! Once again physics solves the question. Now we can be sure that we mean them and not euclidean translations, in one simple word
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15:24:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes
15:32:39 <fizzie> arseniiv: Part 3.
15:33:03 <arseniiv> thanks
15:33:25 <fizzie> I remember the parts mostly because we had an IRC game on our channel that pasted a random (three-line?) quote from one of the books, and gave a point to the person who replied fastest with the number 1-5 denoting the correct book.
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15:34:28 <fizzie> Although there's a few absolutely identical bits that were kind of a scow for that game. Specifically, the intro of at least books 1 and 4.
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15:39:08 <b_jonas> yes, this is from book 3
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15:41:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: do you play that with Harry Potter too? there are a lot of quotes I had difficulty finding.
15:42:13 <fizzie> Nah, this was on #douglasadams over in IRCnet (a dead channel now), so it wouldn't have been on-topic.
15:42:59 <b_jonas> I didn't play that as a game, more like often people gave answers on https://scifi.stackexchange.com/ with Harry Potter quotes but no specific reference, and I tried to figure out where they came from so I can label them with the book and chapter number
15:43:39 <b_jonas> oh, and at one point I found out that there's one difference in the chapter division of LotR between the original and the Hungarian translation, so you have to be careful with chapter numbers there
15:44:45 <arseniiv> int-e: try this one someday: https://i.postimg.cc/qvv5SpVG/moebius-acid1.png IMO looks cool too, watching right now
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15:56:24 <arseniiv> ah, I think one can embed a free group on n letters into an nD hyperbolic space isometry group O⁺(1, n). This is scary
15:56:45 <arseniiv> that other group I mentioned was a factor of this one I think
15:57:22 <int-e> can't you do that with affine maps?
15:57:28 <b_jonas> arseniiv: embed as just a group, which isn't surprising, or like embed a discrete group as a topological group, which is slightly more surprising but I think it's still true?
15:57:31 <int-e> uh
15:57:37 <int-e> isometries in the plane, really
15:57:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: basically you can just have a tree of triply-ideal triangles
15:58:21 <b_jonas> or triply ideal polygons of n-1 sides if you wish
15:58:34 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm what topology is on a free group? I thought discrete so then it wouldn’t add anything
15:58:48 <b_jonas> arseniiv: discrete, but it adds a constraint to the embedding
15:59:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: otherwise it would be too easy to construct an embedding, even to the additive groups of reals, by choosing basis elements that are linearly independent over the rationals
16:00:57 <b_jonas> does that make sense?
16:01:00 <int-e> arseniiv: I mean if you pick n different centers and n angles of rotations randomly I'd expect to get a free group almost certainly.
16:01:03 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> or triply ideal polygons of n-1 sides if you wish => yeah, the partition by corresponding planes and hypercycles looks like that
16:01:20 <arseniiv> or hm
16:01:27 <b_jonas> well, the triply ideal polygon tiling might only embed a free semigroup
16:01:44 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how exactly to embed a free group on n symbols
16:01:59 <b_jonas> but I expect it's also possible
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16:03:24 <b_jonas> (I'm required to nitpick my own statements too, not only other people's, rather than wait for the other nitpicking algebraists later in the day when the channel has more traffic)
16:03:48 <arseniiv> <int-e> arseniiv: I mean if you pick n different centers and n angles of rotations randomly I'd expect to get a free group almost certainly. => oh, interesting. Then I think I came to the question b_jonas stated, about topology, surely we can endow the free group with some topology which wouldn’t be preserved when going to rotation-induced group. Hm or not
16:04:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, the discrete topology
16:05:12 <b_jonas> which means you want an embedding whose range doesn't have any accumulation point
16:05:24 <arseniiv> b_jonas: take n orthogonal lines, have each symbol to correspond to a translation along each of the lines, large enough to make all this work
16:05:31 <arseniiv> if I’m correct of course
16:05:35 <oerjan> . o O ( technically i'm an analyst [sp?] not an algebraist. )
16:06:16 <b_jonas> arseniiv: um, this is for the isometry group of what dimension of hyperbolic space? I assumed a 2-plane but maybe I didn't pay attention
16:06:28 <arseniiv> n-dimensional
16:06:30 <b_jonas> "isometry group O⁺(1, n)"
16:06:38 <b_jonas> ah
16:06:45 <b_jonas> well that makes it easier
16:06:49 <oerjan> is this about amenable group because there totally was a part about that in my PhD
16:06:53 <oerjan> *+s
16:07:04 <b_jonas> then I guess you can embed at least a free group on O(n) symbols into it
16:07:12 <b_jonas> I'm not sure about n-1 symbols
16:07:20 <arseniiv> we should be able to embed larger free groups on k symbols through their embedding in 2-symbol free group though?
16:07:49 <arseniiv> I don’t remember how does one do that, like a ↦ a, b ↦ ab, c ↦ abb?..
16:08:04 <b_jonas> arseniiv: hmm, perhaps
16:08:23 <b_jonas> is there such a thing for free groups, not just for free semigroups?
16:08:26 <arseniiv> I was shocked when I learned you can do that and that these groups are still not isomorphic. I even have forgot what’s the matter
16:08:31 <b_jonas> there probabl is
16:09:20 <arseniiv> it’s very alien to me. Group theory is a conspiracy!
16:09:41 <int-e> arseniiv: yes, that ab^k thing should work.
16:10:06 <int-e> and if that somehow miraculously fails, ab^ka will certainly do the trick.
16:10:37 <int-e> oh... no!
16:10:40 <arseniiv> BTW we may blame octonions for some or all of sporadic groups, but can we blame complex numbers for non-Möbius conformal transformations of a 2-plane, and if so, for what things could we blame quaternions?
16:10:58 <b_jonas> yeah, in that case you can probably also embed any free group of finitely many generators into isomorphisms of the hyperbolic 2-plane, based on a tiling with quadrangles with all vertices ideal
16:11:27 <arseniiv> int-e: at least I don’t remember seeing how to prove it works, if it is
16:11:29 <int-e> that one fails, duh. abba a^-1b^-1a^-1 abba = abbba.
16:11:55 <int-e> so hmm, needs work.
16:12:08 <b_jonas> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Infinite-order_square_tiling
16:12:34 <int-e> ba b^-1 = baa a^-1b^-1 is a problem for ba^k
16:13:35 <arseniiv> . o O ( the sequel of the game was named b a^-1 b a is you )
16:14:30 <int-e> Next candidate: a^kba^k
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16:15:17 <int-e> And that should do the trick.
16:15:55 <b_jonas> I hope this doesn't get as difficult as embedding to Incident
16:18:15 <oerjan> if you can embed 3 into 2, you can recurse, at least
16:18:22 <oerjan> (in case there's still trouble)
16:20:24 <b_jonas> I think you can just embed a free group on n symbols directly to hyperbolic isomorphism using a tiling with ideal 2*n sided polygons
16:23:37 <oerjan> . o O ( and then you can prove banach-tarski in hyperbolic space )
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16:25:40 <oerjan> ( that's more or less what "non-amenable group" means )
16:28:43 <zzo38> If you cannot provide HTTP headers with a file: URL then perhaps the problems that causes should be something to be fixed when making a new web browser program.
16:31:05 <int-e> sure, whatever
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16:35:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, that's sort of like how you can fit two filled horocycles into a single horocycle, with a triply ideal triangle remaining, and all horocycles are isomorphic
16:35:24 <b_jonas> it's trickier if you don't want any piece to remain
16:35:40 <b_jonas> but not by too much I think
16:37:44 <b_jonas> you know how some digital washing machines or similar home appliances have a children's lock, where you have to hold a button, or two adjacent buttons, for a second to unlock the button pad, right?
16:38:10 <int-e> no
16:39:36 <b_jonas> do these still work on small children? I sort of feel like the current generation of toddlers that grow up on smartphones will easily know that they have to long press the one or two buttons marked with the smiley in lock icon, so the locks won't work as a children's lock, only as a lock against accidental presses or cat typing. and you might not even be able to design a captcha that older adults can
16:39:42 <b_jonas> open without getting too frustrated but the toddlers can't
16:39:51 <b_jonas> int-e: some newer microwaves also have them
16:40:13 <b_jonas> they're needed because small children like to press buttons
16:40:15 <int-e> b_jonas: I get the idea but I have no such appliance
16:40:43 <b_jonas> and they want to try all the buttons, so even if you give them a hundred other buttons, they will want to press the washing machine buttons too
16:41:32 <int-e> the old washing machine I have relies on (lack of) strength, the old-fashioned way
16:41:49 <b_jonas> strength can help, sure
16:42:30 <b_jonas> there are also locks that rely on requiring a special tool, namely the dummy plugs you insert into mains electric outlets so that children can't plug anything in
16:42:58 <b_jonas> the hardest problem is locking stoves of course
16:43:44 <b_jonas> there are both physical solutions for that that cover the control panel or just the control dials, and digital ones, but at least one has a digital lock that doesn't even work as a cat lock, and I know because I managed to accidentally turn on my brother's electric stove
16:44:30 * oerjan checks b_jonas for whiskers
16:45:38 <b_jonas> you won't find them under all the facial hair
16:45:56 * int-e recalls a paper talking about whisker-compatible rules in higher-dimensional (2-dimensional, really) rewriting
16:46:55 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> you can fit two filled horocycles into a single horocycle, with a triply ideal triangle remaining => wait, how? There is just one ideal point there, how would two of them share it?..
16:47:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: oh yeah, it's not a triply ideal triangle that remains
16:48:03 <b_jonas> just a section bounded by three horocycles
16:48:12 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> open without getting too frustrated but the toddlers can't => reminisces of raccoon/bear-proof trash containers
16:48:18 <b_jonas> and yes, there's just one ideal point in it, shared by all three horocycles
16:48:27 <b_jonas> or wait, does that not work?
16:48:30 <b_jonas> it doesn't work
16:48:32 <b_jonas> darn
16:48:33 <b_jonas> um
16:48:42 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the construction is, sorry, that one is stupid
16:48:56 <zzo38> Well, I think that these functions to lock the controls on microwaves and other stuff is mainly useful to avoid accidentally activating them, since anyone who wants to activate it will find a way whether they want to or not, know or not how to do.
16:49:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah yes. those might have the same problem.
16:49:41 <zzo38> Some TV cable box will have the option to set up a password required for purchasing, which I had did to avoid accidentally purchasing anything, not because there is someone that we need to prevent from deliberately doing so.
16:51:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's also a kind of parental lock, though I feel like that can also lead to the sitcom stereotype situation where the parent can't use the television, parental lock or not, whereas the toddler can use it and can factory reset it to reset the password
16:51:20 <b_jonas> *sigh*
16:51:52 <b_jonas> my grandma recently bought one of these modern TVs, and of course it's a smart TV with internet capability and everything, with a "netflix" button on the remote
16:52:36 <b_jonas> I helped her set it up as a television but categorically refused to teach her how to use the internet part, just like I categorically refused to teach her the android phone that my family bought to her
16:53:12 <b_jonas> I bought a proper grandmaphone, which she can use well, but it doesn't ring loud enough, and grandma sometimes can't hear it, whereas the smartphone does ring loud enough
16:54:07 <b_jonas> I don't want to leave her in a situation where she doesn't have a working phone, but I also don't want to be technical support and teaching how the internet works and how not to do stupid things on the internet,
16:54:55 <b_jonas> so I have to put my foot down somewhere, and a nice line is to say that I can tell her a few things about her windows computer, but I don't use a touchscreen phone or a smartphone and I don't think it's appropriate for her and so I refuse to help with that
16:58:34 <zzo38> Yes, I do'nt like those smart TV either. In this case what I have is a cable box, and I don't really like it much, but that is what is required (although I am not the only one to use it; actually I don't use it much all myself as I don't watch television much)
17:00:17 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> but I also don't want to be technical support and teaching how the internet works and how not to do stupid things on the internet => very relatable. My grandma has an android phone too, and she wants to be able to photo things and as she unfortunately lacks a suitable technical base model, you only can provide her step-by-step instructions and hope she won’t press something accidentally and get lost in the situation, though b
17:00:18 <arseniiv> less the home button, I said her it will quit her from anything, but no one wants to write anything down and I’m afraid she’ll forget the instructions due to lack of frequent practice and underlying models how it operates
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17:01:01 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the problem is that the home button doesn't quit from everything. it quits from the application, but then you reenter the application and it's still in the same state.
17:02:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: my mother actually got stuck in a loop of this when trying to teach my grandmother, with a state in the dialer she didn't realize how to quit. even my mother sometimes can't figure out how to use a smartphone, and she's much more flexible about learning new things, whereas my grandmother's hands are ill and so she also has difficulty operating a touchscreen, plus her vision isn't too good
17:02:20 <b_jonas> either
17:02:30 <arseniiv> (she had a grandmaphone once, but then someone decided she needs more, and she agreed about wanting to photo things, and well…)
17:02:30 <arseniiv> oh, fair point, so then others telling her to backtrack several times gave her a better advice
17:03:10 <b_jonas> I'm glad that she can use a grandmaphone, i.e. a non-smartphone with large display and large buttons. mostly. she can't figure out how to delete SMSes when the memory fills up, and doesn't bother with typing lower case letters, but I can deal with that
17:03:57 <arseniiv> this is actually great
17:04:15 <arseniiv> though won’t old SMS get deleted automatically usually?
17:04:30 <b_jonas> arseniiv: they don't.
17:04:38 <arseniiv> oh well
17:04:58 <arseniiv> for all the progress we had made :( :D
17:05:36 <arseniiv> at least they could make that a togglable setting, if they’re afraid people would sue them for unconditional deletion of old data
17:14:17 <int-e> age is a lousy criterion for importance
17:16:25 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's a grandmaphone. it doesn't have lots of extra togglable settings. it doesn't even have an option to back up the phonebook to the inserted SD card, so I just put all the numbers to the SIM card so I could back them up by putting the SIM card to my spare phone
17:16:33 <int-e> And I'm saying that because I've kept some of the earliest SMSs on my mobile phone; they have some account details related to the current contract.
17:17:30 <int-e> There's a reason why the most common solution to running out of space is to add more storage ;)
17:18:35 <arseniiv> <int-e> age is a lousy criterion for importance => true, so that the setting should be “don’t delete” by default, and also there should be a way to mark messages as important, so they won’t get deleted even when this is on
17:21:24 <int-e> in fact plotting importance over age might result in a funny xkcd (in the usual style, with bumps explained as text)
17:21:34 <arseniiv> my cat is silly :( she rolls all her toys out of reach and then demands something unknown
17:22:07 <arseniiv> int-e: someone should write Randall :D
17:23:37 <int-e> possibly lows as well "that time all messages were inquiries 'about your offer on Craigslist' because someone got their phone number wrong"
18:00:39 <b_jonas> I don't recall such SMSes, but I have got phone calls to wrong number often. this is what you get when the phone number space is so small that mobile phone providers reuse your number if it's inactive for a year and a bit.
18:01:30 <b_jonas> I wish we at least had a longer number space in addition to the current short one, so you can get both a short and a long number that are currently synonyms, but the long one is never reused. in the age of smartphones, nobody will care if phone numbers have three extra digits.
18:03:38 <b_jonas> heck, is the government agency that divides the phone number space among service providers allowed that, mobile phone service providers could even charge extra for "short numbers" that are current full numbers, just like they current charge extra for memorable numbers and actual short numbers (3 to 6 digits without area code, starting with 1 these days, there used to be ones that start with 0 or 9 but I
18:03:44 <b_jonas> think they no longer exist except possibly unofficially some old emergency service numbers)
18:04:12 <zzo38> Maybe it is better for that to depend on the area code or other prefix, so that current telephone numbers have the same length and so that it can be determined by the prefix.
18:04:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, it would have to be in a few new area codes
18:08:51 <b_jonas> there are also a lot of mobile phone accounts that need to have a phone number but almost nobody needs to know them except at the start to set them up: the ones used for internet access only in mobile internet modems, in POS terminals, and alarm systems. these could easily get just a longer phone number
18:09:38 <b_jonas> and with banks using SMSes sent to me as part of a multi-factor authentication system, I would really like to have phone numbers that won't be reused
18:09:45 <b_jonas> especially not so soon
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21:40:14 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fpstefan * New user account
21:58:21 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82875&oldid=82865 * Fpstefan * (+201)
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03:24:05 <esowiki> [[A.R.T.I.C.L.E.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82877&oldid=82761 * New Army * (-3) Removed useless URL escape
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03:34:20 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82878&oldid=52014 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+286)
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05:06:29 <zzo38> How to write strange programming in TeX: \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
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09:16:27 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82879&oldid=82875 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+227) Added my introduction text.
09:21:16 <esowiki> [[DukkTap]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82880&oldid=79026 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+2) Amended some orthographic mistakes.
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13:34:40 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82881&oldid=82873 * Sanscicondos * (+37) /* Versions */ Edited the Alpha v1.3 section
13:52:09 <esowiki> [[Talk:HelloWorld]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82882&oldid=80732 * Sanscicondos * (+243)
14:04:58 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82883&oldid=82874 * Sanscicondos * (+162)
14:06:08 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82884&oldid=82883 * Sanscicondos * (+36)
14:06:27 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82885&oldid=82884 * Sanscicondos * (-46)
14:06:40 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82886&oldid=82885 * Sanscicondos * (+3)
14:06:59 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82887&oldid=82886 * Sanscicondos * (-1)
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14:10:25 <esowiki> [[StupidStackLanguage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82888&oldid=82587 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+1) Inserted an apostrophe into characters in order to reflect its possessive case.
14:21:04 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iggyvolz * New user account
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14:25:40 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82889&oldid=82879 * Iggyvolz * (+243) Add introduction for iggyvolz
14:26:06 <esowiki> [[Pyhton (sic)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82890&oldid=78846 * Iggyvolz * (+0) Fix typo in program name (should be pyhton not python)
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16:16:40 <nakilon> are both this channel web log viewers made from scratch by locals?
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16:17:26 <nakilon> I'm looking into converting some logs I aggregate from elsewhere to neat HTML and the only thing I've found so far is python tool with ugly CSS
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16:20:58 <nakilon> it's strange that no one makes such tools, while basic chat logs format didn't change for decades
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16:38:06 <fizzie> I think they are, yes. But I'm sure I've seen more than one tool like that.
16:42:25 <fizzie> As far as full-fledged "web apps" go, there's at least that https://irclog.whitequark.org/ thing and that https://freenode.logbot.info/ thing, both of which have source available. Though if you just want the HTML conversion part, maybe those aren't too interesting.
16:45:29 <fizzie> Of course #esoteric would hardly deign to use a service like one of those. If it's Not Invented Here, it's Not Any Good either.
16:46:29 <chibi> You could build some script to strip anything not said by esowiki bot from your logs and continously update that.
16:46:54 <chibi> Alternatively, doesn't mediawiki have RSS?
16:47:04 <chibi> Wait nvm, I misunderstood what nakilon said
16:47:59 <nakilon> hehe // If it's Not Invented Here, it's Not Any Good either.
16:50:21 <nakilon> so this one is ugly https://pypi.org/project/irclog2html/ this one has no example https://hg.sr.ht/~anelki/weechat-log-html this one also has no example but at least it's in Ruby and I saw the author somewhere https://github.com/renatolond/mirc_logs_to_html
16:51:13 <nakilon> and existing examples of IRC logs in web I see are ugly in proportion to their age
16:51:59 <nakilon> mostly people reinvent the wheel
16:52:11 <nakilon> and if do CSS on my own it will be ugly too
16:53:09 <chibi> CSS isn't too hard to get right, if you're ever stuck just copy bits of this and bits of that from neocities pages.
16:53:21 <fizzie> While it's indeed unrelated, I think MediaWiki does have RSS and Atom formatting support for the recent changes feed, via the API, if anyone's interested.
16:53:29 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/w/api.php?action=feedrecentchanges&days=7&limit=50&feedformat=atom and so on.
16:54:02 <fizzie> (The IRC thing goes through a different channel though.)
16:56:13 <chibi> .logs are just text files, you could even do something like: cat mylogs.log | grep esowiki | [Whatever regex you need here]
16:57:09 <chibi> Use that as part of a cgi script, et voila.
16:57:57 <nakilon> oh wait, I'm dumb
16:58:06 <nakilon> I want to export twitch logs
16:58:16 <nakilon> but I can just take the real CSS from twitch website
16:58:36 <nakilon> and even reproduce the HTML structure from real
17:04:35 <b_jonas> nakilon: there are like four different channel logs for #esoteric probably saved with four different tools
17:04:38 <b_jonas> `logs
17:04:42 <HackEso> logs? No such file or directory
17:05:10 <b_jonas> `? log
17:05:11 <HackEso> ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
17:05:13 <b_jonas> `? exp
17:05:14 <HackEso> exp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:05:16 <nakilon> oh indeed, I thought there are 2 but there are 4 in topic
17:06:47 <b_jonas> one of them is no longer saving more longs
17:06:55 <fizzie> And only two of them really do HTML conversions.
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17:19:34 <nakilon> woaaahhhhhh https://github.com/nurupo/asm-irc-logger
17:20:52 <chibi> Hello, stalker.html!
17:21:01 <chibi> Ooh, that's nice.
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17:45:56 <nakilon> twitch irc is such a huge spam of JOIN PART (I guess they mean when people are switching to stream tab in browser) that it made 720KB of log in 50 minutes
17:55:50 <fizzie> For the record, the esolangs.org/logs stalker.html websockets thing has some hard-to-track bug which just hangs up the web server sometimes. I don't know if it's on my side or on the CivetWeb side. Should rebuild that one day with a newer version, it might have gotten fixed.
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18:05:02 <grimler32> Are There Any Al1ens Or T1me Travelers Here Today? Please PM me
18:05:15 <int-e> Hmm "Portal Reloaded" is pretty decent. (Portal 2 mod, requires main game.)
18:05:38 <int-e> It features time travel as a game element, I wonder if that counts.
18:05:56 <int-e> grimler32: Wrong kind of esoterics, but I suspect we've told you that before.
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18:07:23 <nakilon> there is "time traveling" in Talos Principle
18:09:28 <grimler32> ill try that thanks
18:10:03 <oerjan> the time travelers will be here yesterday hth
18:11:06 <chibi> "I'm not interested in normal humans at all. If there are any aliens, time travelers, sliders, or espers here, please come and look for me. That is all!"
18:19:26 <int-e> nakilon: I'm trying to remember... oh you could perform actions and then rewind time and do another set of actions with a second character as long as you didn't interfere with the first copy.
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18:33:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82891&oldid=82377 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+131) Added an implementation for the programming language Jaune.
18:39:53 <fizzie> Didn't Stephen Hawking once host a party for all the time travellers?
18:40:01 <fizzie> (By sending out the invitations the day after the party.)
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18:52:09 <kmc> did anyone show?
18:52:32 <fizzie> I think not. :/
18:55:11 <int-e> would he have sent the invitation if anyone had shown up?
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18:58:06 <b_jonas> I think time travelers host their own parties and they are too cool to care about parties organized in the present
18:58:27 <b_jonas> those parties are probably in the long past or long future, and possibly in distant space too
18:58:46 <esowiki> [[Jaune]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82892&oldid=78802 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+829) Added an EBNF description of the programming language.
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19:16:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82893&oldid=72369 * Rottytooth * (+351)
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19:26:13 <esowiki> [[FP trivia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82894 * Fpstefan * (+5576) Created page with "'''FP trivia''' is a [[pointfree programming]] language<ref>[https://wiki.haskell.org/Pointfree Pointfree - HaskellWiki.] Retrieved on 5. Jan. 2021</ref><ref>[http://www4.di.u..."
19:30:03 <zzo38> Which suits do you like? swords, rods, money, or cups
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19:34:28 <esowiki> [[FP trivia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82895&oldid=82894 * Fpstefan * (+37)
19:36:26 <esowiki> [[FP trivia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82896&oldid=82895 * Fpstefan * (+33)
19:39:08 <esowiki> [[FP trivia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82897&oldid=82896 * Fpstefan * (+38)
19:43:15 <zzo38> Apparently the suit of interactive fiction is rods, I have been told; which one is the suit of esoteric computer programming, would you think?
19:45:58 <Taneb> I think it is probably not money. Perhaps cups
19:46:10 <Taneb> (because they are like cpus but weird)
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19:51:30 <zzo38> OK
19:58:11 <esowiki> [[FP trivia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82898&oldid=82897 * Fpstefan * (+104)
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20:07:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: bells and clubs
20:07:29 <b_jonas> that's answer for what suits I like, not for the later question
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20:10:47 <oerjan> whistles and hammers
20:11:12 <nakilon> int-e as I remember your "prevous recording" was a hologram that could not move things around but could be used as you could jump on it's head or something
20:11:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure esoteric programming has an associated suit, but try the major arcana 1: magician.
20:12:24 <oerjan> sounds a little bit optimistic. on the other end, there's the fool.
20:12:26 <int-e> nakilon: Yes, you could not touch it directly, but I think you could still take items away from it or block its path.
20:12:29 <int-e> (with items)
20:12:41 <int-e> maybe I misremember, it's been about 3 years
20:13:02 <nakilon> 6 years for me
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22:41:00 <arseniiv> hi nice people bye!
22:41:16 <nakilon> hi bye
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23:06:00 <esowiki> [[User talk:Zzo38]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82899&oldid=82893 * Zzo38 * (+248) Reply to question about interview
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2021-05-14
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00:14:55 <nakilon> hah, it works
00:15:19 <nakilon> b_jonas twiggle currently has 500 viewers
00:15:35 <nakilon> and it's what you get if you track all JOIN and PART https://i.imgur.com/QmlOux6.png
00:21:15 <nakilon> though it starts with number growing yet before the stream started so it looks like there are JOINs without PARTs, maybe new subscribers, idk, twitch IRC is weird
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01:46:03 <esowiki> [[AAEEEEEEEEEI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82900&oldid=78180 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+25) Amended some orthographic mistakes.
02:07:31 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82901&oldid=82857 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+243)
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03:10:57 <zzo38> Recently I read that apparently USB specification includes code numbers for different golf clubs. I looked it up; it has codes for iron clubs numbered 1 to 11, but only odd numbered wood clubs (there is no code for 4 wood). Also it says that the "VCR/TV" button selects the video source for recording, which is not what it means on any VCR that I have ever seen; rather, it controls RF pass through.
03:11:53 <zzo38> (I think that USB is not very good, and that other such as RS-232, IMIDI, etc is better.)
03:16:47 <kmc> why do they have codes for golf clubs?
03:16:54 <zzo38> I don't know.
03:17:09 <kmc> is it for identifying controllers in golf simulator games?
03:17:22 <zzo38> Maybe.
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03:19:20 <zzo38> (Even so, most comptuer golf games I have played have a 4 wood club.)
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03:33:38 <nakilon> /r/nongolfers
03:34:19 <nakilon> added some other stuff https://i.imgur.com/08VQptn.png but found no streamers interested in it, lol
03:36:22 <kmc> "Obviously, you're not a golfer"
03:36:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Voxvy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82902 * Robolta * (+32) Created page with "I don't think this is an Esolang"
03:36:47 <kmc> what is this nakilon
03:40:57 <esowiki> [[Talk:Voxvy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82903&oldid=82902 * Robolta * (-32) Blanked the page
03:57:05 <nakilon> kmc analysing Twitch chat logs via their IRC interface
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04:04:09 <kmc> ah neat
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04:43:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Voxvy]]": Author request: blanked by the only person with comments here
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04:55:02 <esowiki> [[Fun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82904 * AndrewBayly * (+724) Created page with "Fun is an esoteric dialect of JavaScript, which uses only function calls. To be more specific, a Fun program is a function call, where a function call is an identifier, follo..."
04:56:23 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82905&oldid=82904 * AndrewBayly * (-5) /* Standard Library */
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05:00:28 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82906&oldid=82905 * AndrewBayly * (+421)
05:01:23 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82907&oldid=82906 * AndrewBayly * (-4) /* Guidelines for Implementation */
05:08:04 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82908&oldid=82907 * AndrewBayly * (+198) /* Standard Library */
05:08:51 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82909&oldid=82908 * AndrewBayly * (+8) /* Examples */
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05:23:56 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82910&oldid=82909 * AndrewBayly * (+957) /* Standard Library */
05:30:12 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82911&oldid=82910 * AndrewBayly * (+620) /* Standard Library */
05:32:57 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82912&oldid=82911 * AndrewBayly * (+40) /* Example Programs */
05:33:31 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82913&oldid=82912 * AndrewBayly * (-8) /* Example Programs */
05:36:17 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82914&oldid=82913 * AndrewBayly * (+627) /* Example Programs */
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05:48:31 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82915&oldid=82914 * AndrewBayly * (+339) /* Example Programs */
05:49:02 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82916&oldid=82915 * AndrewBayly * (-3) /* Example Programs */
05:50:42 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82917&oldid=82784 * AndrewBayly * (+10) /* F */
05:52:35 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82918&oldid=82916 * AndrewBayly * (+36) /* Standard Library */
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14:16:58 <esowiki> [[Jaune]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82919&oldid=82892 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+6767) Added an implementation of a Jaune interpreter in Common Lisp and a reference to a more sophisticated version thereof under my GitHub account.
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15:10:53 <esowiki> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82920&oldid=82762 * Tomhe * (-21) temp=0 (temp is not needed anymore) syntax change
15:17:22 <int-e> . o O ( You know a puzzle is hard when you invent new notation to keep track of the puzzle state. )
15:24:12 <oerjan> and if it's really hard, the notation turns into an esolang
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15:32:50 <int-e> well, this is Recursed I'm talking about so the potential is there
15:33:30 <int-e> There's this add-on level set, https://recursed-ice-palace.github.io/
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15:36:57 <int-e> And the particular level was "The Well" which is one of the 6 "too hard" bonus levels from "A Day Out" (the box in the center of "The Ice Palace").
15:43:41 <int-e> I've been chipping away at those levels for a month now, wow.
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15:50:45 <int-e> ("the potential is there": https://arxiv.org/abs/2002.05131)
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16:34:53 <b_jonas> fungot, can you explain why "we put liver into delivery" is a bad tagline for a package delivery business?
16:34:54 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i am sure they will make a clear appeal for asymmetry for the benefit of the baltic sea. i stopped a person who was insured for medical care in a member state seems to have chosen to get some light on this event.
16:40:22 <int-e> heh. it's illogical; de-liver-y should be taking livers out, not putting them in.
16:40:34 <int-e> it's like making a vacuum cleaner that doesn't suck
16:43:20 <b_jonas> fungot: no you very well cannot appeal to that. Jared Diamond's geographic determinacy theory was never adequately proved by randomized experiments, and most domain scientists don't agree with it. no matter how that one book shaped the popular consciousness, we shouldn't base our policies on it. we have expert witnesses to testify on this if you wish.
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16:46:14 <fizzie> fungot: What's a good livery for a delivery van?
16:46:14 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, under our research and development, for enlargement requires a review of current legislation on committees to be amended and we will need more detailed information on this.
16:47:43 <fizzie> By all means, let's set up a committee to investigate amending the current legislation on committees.
16:48:16 <int-e> a programmers biggest dream: larger for-s.
16:48:42 <fizzie> I guess strictly speaking it was the review of the legislation that was proposed to be amended, not the legislation itself.
16:49:27 <kmc> we need a committee to discuss the proliferation of committees
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16:49:42 <int-e> kmc: put it on the agenda... I mean in the topic? :P
16:49:46 <b_jonas> http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2018-12-06.2573.html#d.2018-12-06.2573
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16:51:05 <int-e> that particular topic has been embarrassingly long-lived
16:59:17 <int-e> almost a year. https://esolangs.org/logs/2020-05-21.html#lI
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17:00:41 <int-e> (I mean the first part. The last log has moved in the meantime and we've had 3 people accidentally setting the topic without changing it.)
17:01:19 <int-e> fungot: where can I download IRC logs from the future? esolangs.org is giving me 404 not found errors.
17:01:20 <fungot> int-e: mr president, president-in-office of the council, whom i wish all the participants. the role of a universal public service: the right people to defend the basque country and fnord and consequently for the international community's patience is running out. i understand the position of the president of the commission, together with the g7 countries, the worst of them.
17:02:55 <b_jonas> int-e: install the client from http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/git-extensions then git clone https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
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17:04:43 <int-e> (I messed up the command line when refreshing my local copy of the logs)
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17:07:28 <int-e> b_jonas: I don't think I want to read that.
17:07:36 <int-e> it might give me ideas
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17:22:37 <esowiki> [[BeeScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82921 * VilgotanL * (+1373) created the page
17:29:15 <esowiki> [[Jaune]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82922&oldid=82919 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+5) /* Interpreters */ Update cat
17:44:05 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82923&oldid=82804 * VilgotanL * (+16) add BeeScript to general joke languages
17:46:24 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82924&oldid=82923 * VilgotanL * (+0) moved BeeScript into correct spot for alphabetical order
17:47:52 <esowiki> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82925&oldid=82449 * VilgotanL * (+31) add beescript
17:49:19 <fizzie> b_jonas: I have no idea why, but I keep thinking the Arthur of your link is the King Arthur of legend.
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17:55:39 <oerjan> i don't know who arthur is but i do picture him as sir humphrey of yes, minister
17:56:35 <fizzie> That's more plausible than my notion.
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18:15:57 <esowiki> [[BeeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82926&oldid=82921 * VilgotanL * (+126) added hello world program
18:19:01 <esowiki> [[BeeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82927&oldid=82926 * VilgotanL * (+46) minor addition
18:29:35 <esowiki> [[BeeScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82928&oldid=82927 * VilgotanL * (+68) add interpreter link
18:41:59 <esowiki> [[BeeScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82929&oldid=82928 * VilgotanL * (+14) change instruction names a bit
19:24:40 <b_jonas> fizzie, oerjan: I see
19:53:43 <b_jonas> int-e: and it deleted everything?
19:54:48 <int-e> b_jonas: only the stuff from the future
19:56:09 <int-e> which is now gone without trace, as if it was never there
19:56:49 <b_jonas> I see
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20:21:52 <chibi> I just read the page on feather, what's the mindboggling aspect of it?
20:26:00 <chibi> Is it the self-compiling bit?
20:28:51 <oerjan> . o O ( the mindboggling aspect is that ais523 has never defined it clearly enough for anyone else to be properly boggled by it )
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20:30:47 <oerjan> or put differently, the most mindboggling aspect is presumably in that part which he hasn't told anyone clearly about, because he hasn't completely figured it out himself. although last i heard he said he'd concluded is was basically impossible.
20:31:51 <oerjan> then again i didn't pay much attention for the last year or so. maybe i should recheck.
20:33:39 <oerjan> oh the page hasn't changed since i last edited it
20:34:59 <imode> ...
20:35:01 <chibi> The self compiling aspect is a bit unusual but it's been done before, even with non-esolangs. The OOP retroactive updates thing ais523 is cool, but not impossible either
20:35:04 <imode> feather?
20:35:27 <imode> lmao fuck off that's my language.
20:35:28 <oerjan> chibi: the thing is that the retroactive updates apply to the self compiler as well
20:36:21 <chibi> Ah?
20:37:05 <chibi> So like, there's no clear bootloader? Or?
20:37:17 <oerjan> there's an infinite tower of compilers, all the way down, and all can be retroactively updated
20:37:24 <imode> you make a language change, it changes the previous changes.
20:37:58 <oerjan> iirc
20:38:52 <imode> thing is, A isn't satisfiable, because you always need something to interpret the language.
20:39:24 <imode> but you can write that interpreter in the language... and then use that to generate the interpreter for a particular platform.
20:40:10 <chibi> So, building a bootloader for the language would violate the specification, because that bootloader can't be retroactively changed?
20:40:33 <imode> not from within the language, iirc.
20:41:01 <oerjan> i think ais523 originally hoped it could still be implemented by a bootloader that implements the entire tower of compilers at once
20:41:57 <chibi> I think I getcha, but I might also be dumb and just not entirely grok--Ooh, sorta like mascarpone?
20:47:46 <oerjan> well i'm already speculating more than remembering
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21:09:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82930&oldid=82901 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+6) Test
21:09:09 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82931&oldid=82930 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+20) Testss
21:09:32 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82932&oldid=82931 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-16) Scary
21:10:30 <esowiki> [[Fun]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82933&oldid=82918 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+801) Turing-completeness; cats
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2021-05-15
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02:35:32 <zzo38> Now I write a program (included in Farbfeld Utilities) to make tartan pattern, but currenly the thread count notation described at https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/threadcount is not yet implemented. For one thing, there are multiple RGB colours with the same alphabetic code, and I don't know what to do about that. Do you know how to do it?
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03:48:18 <esowiki> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82934&oldid=76256 * Caenbe * (-71)
03:49:36 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82935&oldid=82519 * Caenbe * (+52) In case this needed specifying
03:52:40 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82936&oldid=76074 * Caenbe * (+43) Slightly improved wording
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08:58:31 <ais523> grr, you've got me thinking about Feather again
08:58:36 <ais523> but yes, there are two main hard parts:
08:59:38 <ais523> a) it has to look like, from the point of view of any program running in the language, you can change the containing interpreter, or its interpreter, or its interpreter, etc. (this may mean retroactively inventing an extra layer of interpreters around the program, but that isn't really any harder than other source of retroactive change)
08:59:56 <ais523> b) but much more complicated, you need to avoid retroactive changes immediately creating an infinite regress
09:00:24 <ais523> by which I mean, say we add a new debug feature to the outside interpreter, the outside interpreter then replays everything it's done so far, but then it reaches the code to add the debug feature
09:01:03 <ais523> now, somehow it has to skip doing that because the feature's there already: if it did the retroactive change again, and we recalculated what that did again, it would just lead to an infinite loop and the program would never make progress
09:02:01 <ais523> and somehow, whatever technique we use to avoid the infinite regress has to work at every level of abstraction at the same time (including if the number of levels of abstraction we're simulating gets retroactively changed)
09:03:49 <ais523> oh, and because retroactive changes involve replacing an older object with a newer one, we then need to take account of the fact that the technique we're using has to deal with objects that were created by interpreters which could have been in quite a different state at the time, or have since been changed to do something entirely different, or hadn't been tracking retroactive changes that have since been made
09:04:17 <ais523> this is all the sort of thing that initially seems like it should be easy, until you write it out and realise the scale of the problem (and how difficult it will be to even just define the problem)
09:05:59 -!- ais523 has set topic: Welcome to the multinational league for esoteric programming proliferation, protection, and protestation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D https://github.com/kspalaiologos/esologs/.
09:06:06 <ais523> there was a typo in an URL in the topic andn obody noticed
09:07:04 <ais523> chibi: ^
09:09:52 <esowiki> [[Feather]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82937&oldid=69966 * Ais523 * (+116) there is another Feather-related log now, so mention it here so that we can find it in the future
09:11:35 <ais523> hmm, perhaps I'm the crazy/over-optimistic one for assuming it should be easy :-D
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11:45:49 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, by retroactively change the interpreter, do you mean redo all the computations? I thought you just wanted to replace functions and classes immediately for the computations going forward, even if the program already has first-class closures and stack frames from those functions or instances of those classes, such that you replace the code but keep the associated data like closure upvalues
11:45:55 <b_jonas> and stack frame temporaries and class instance members, and the problem with that was that you get uninitialized variables that the new functions or classes expect to exist and fulfill some invariant but the old functions or classes didn't yet have.
12:02:36 <b_jonas> Maybe that's why you don't want to do that in Feather, but retroactively recompute everything.
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12:16:45 <b_jonas> But recomputing everything has its own problems. The outputs of the program might retroactively change, including error messages and prompts, and so the inputs might not make sense anymore. You'd have to rerun the entire external world too, with a time machine.
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12:31:55 <b_jonas> And apparently you don't want to just be able to change any part of the code retroactively, you want to be able to change any object retroactively, though I'm not sure what that means, but in exchange you want objects to be immutable.
12:32:05 <b_jonas> (I know that sounds silly.)
12:33:09 <b_jonas> And your primitive is changing the contents of an object retroactively, and you want to use this for changing code by changing objects that are interpreted as code?
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13:35:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jedgrei * New user account
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16:25:24 <esowiki> [[Affine Mess]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82938&oldid=82936 * Caenbe * (+3)
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17:59:16 <arseniiv> int-e: thanks for mentioning Recursed, will try out, and that custom pack then too, hopefully
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18:21:32 <int-e> arseniiv: heh I'm looking forward to the curses :P
18:23:35 <arseniiv> int-e: there will be ε₀ of them
18:23:50 <arseniiv> (if I manage. which I won’t)
18:26:23 <int-e> arseniiv: when you've counted to epsilon_0 you can proceed to well-ordering the reals
18:30:00 <shachaf> int-e: Add-on levels for Recursed?
18:30:06 <shachaf> I never heard about this.
18:31:02 <int-e> shachaf: https://recursed-ice-palace.github.io/
18:31:45 <shachaf> Yes, I saw now. I guess I shouldn't have used the question mark.
18:33:06 <int-e> I guess they didn't exist when we got into Recursed. I only discovered it because I revisted the game to finally reach 100%.
18:35:46 <int-e> (Before that I was missing 6 gems (3 amethysts, 2 rubyes, one diamond) in the Last Tapestry)
18:35:57 <int-e> rubies.
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18:37:42 <shachaf> What are the latest updates in int-e style puzzle games?
18:38:59 <int-e> That was it, really. I played Portal Reloaded which was fun too, but not all that hard.
18:39:33 <int-e> And I still have not completely expedited the monsters.
18:40:19 <arseniiv> int-e: I could, I could!
18:41:59 <shachaf> Hmm, did you play Vertebrae? https://www.puzzlescript.net/play.html?p=ce2474f62432e2a703bba3fb65f5b01f
18:42:22 <shachaf> I don't remember whether I mentioned it here.
18:47:19 <int-e> I don't think you've mentioned it. Hmm. "insert cartridge"
18:48:39 <int-e> So it works in a fresh browser profile, sigh.
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18:55:56 <int-e> shachaf: is there supposed to be more than one level?
18:58:15 <int-e> hmm, now it works? weird.
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19:01:11 <chibi> ais523: Ahh, I see now, yeah.
19:02:48 <chibi> I think I saw a paper floating around that was about reducing compiler stacks in the context of something like JVM into Python into LLVM into x86
19:04:02 <chibi> I'm not sure if that's the same sort of deal would work for a meta compiler
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19:43:02 <zzo38> What does "int-e style puzzle games" means? Have you tried to make up your own puzzle game too?
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20:01:56 <shachaf> I just mean the kind of puzzle game int-e likes.
20:03:41 <zzo38> Yes, but which kind of puzzle games would that be? How would it be described?
20:04:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure. I guess int-e is the expert, not me.
20:04:27 <zzo38> Yes, that is probably correct.
20:07:06 <int-e> shachaf: oh no, there's a fourth vertebrae
20:08:22 <int-e> zzo38: usualy turn-based, minimalistic (relying on emergent complexity instead of tricky building blocks)
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20:08:28 <int-e> *usually
20:09:14 <int-e> somehow, block pushing is one of the most common ways to achieve that
20:10:57 <zzo38> int-e: OK. I also like turn-based puzzle games
20:10:58 <shachaf> int-e: Hmm, did you play Fidel?
20:11:08 <int-e> shachaf: no
20:11:22 <shachaf> It's randomly-generated rather than hand-designed puzzles, but you might like it.
20:15:56 <zzo38> Have you played Gruniozerca 3 or Gruniozerca 2? (Unfortunately, not purely turn-based, but it mostly is)
20:16:06 <zzo38> Or Hero Hearts?
20:18:37 <int-e> hmm, now if you don't pick up the 4th vertebra and move to stage 11... do you lose?
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20:25:04 <zzo38> (I also like each level to be isolated from the others, and that you can try them in any order.)
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21:05:20 <int-e> shachaf: wee I got crushed
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21:16:01 <zzo38> Do you like that too, or don't?
21:20:35 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/v11.png is impossible ;)
21:20:56 <int-e> (I'm giving up)
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21:22:26 <int-e> 2 1/2 hours is enough for a game that I didn't really intend to play :P
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21:26:06 <int-e> shachaf: but it is definitely cute
21:26:38 <shachaf> I don't remember how far I got.
21:26:48 <shachaf> Apparently 11 is a popular one to get stuck on: https://twitter.com/zwegner/status/1275686437611020294
21:27:37 <int-e> Yeah (obviously?) I was kidding... somehow, most game designers don't put unsolvable puzzles into their games.
21:29:21 <int-e> Fidel, Fidel... this one? https://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/fidel-dungeon-rescue
21:29:31 <shachaf> Sure, of course.
21:29:42 <shachaf> Yes, that's the one.
21:31:46 <int-e> zzo38: I'm indifferent to it, it was just a new part of the game mechanics to discover.
21:32:54 <int-e> potentially relevant to the solution... well obviously you don't want to get crushed yourself... but you might crush a vertebra and benefit from it
21:32:58 <zzo38> I shouldn't want unsolvable puzzles in a puzzle game, but in other computer games, it might be suitable sometimes that some of the puzzles might be unsolvable (or puzzles where solving them makes the game unwinnable, etc).
21:33:27 <int-e> I hated the old Sierra adventure games for that :P
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21:39:17 <int-e> shachaf: Hmm, I suspect I enjoy handcrafted puzzles more... even when they have limited replay value
21:40:00 <myname> indeed. i'm having a blast with more advanced sudoku variants
21:43:51 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh does not yet include the function to make randomly generated puzzles, although it might be something to be added in future, maybe. (For one thing, this would require knowing how the format for defining this should be working.)
21:44:47 <zzo38> (Although, it isn't for games such as sudoku anyways; for puzzles like that, should be an entirely different program to make up such puzzles with constraints of filling in the puzzle; it is a different game.)
22:20:19 <int-e> shachaf: funny, vertabrae level 7 is different on itch.io
22:28:14 <int-e> shachaf: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/v07.png (itch.io version is on the left)
22:29:23 <int-e> and may require the same trick that I failed to find on level 11 :P
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22:57:53 <arseniiv> made a small gift of Recursed to my friend, as it costs almost nothing right now
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23:02:07 <arseniiv> today was an exhausting day for my poor psyche. I struggle to sokoban my immediate surroundings into good place but it’s nigh impossible with too many knots of various kinds, social, technical, logistic. Ended up just simply dewooling a sofa of cat fur. That wasn’t immediate at all but it ended up simplest of all, as it needed just me and a brush, and not being perfectionist as that’s one of the favorite places for my cat anyway
23:03:22 <arseniiv> and it wasn’t as satisfying as fixing major things would be
23:03:30 <imode> define fixing major things.
23:03:52 <arseniiv> too many, I don’t want to force my life on you
23:03:59 <arseniiv> or my lack of life :D
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23:17:47 <arseniiv> in a nutshell the general story is that I was prepared for a life which doesn’t happen (their models were poor and I don’t know how they got jobs and all) and then I was left, mal-adapted, with this, and I need to change myself somehow so that I can shamelessly write my résumé finally and get a work. But I can’t and I think I might have minor depression for a year or two and I can’t clean up all the clutter in the flat becaus
23:17:47 <arseniiv> e it’s not all mine and I can’t avoid hearing TV and it depresses and angers me and I think my knowledge is shallow, and I dropped out several years ago and don’t want to return and I can’t finish my own projects to place their code somewhere and a link to the future résumé and all the things, many details, I have almost no friends in the geografic vicinity, just friends outside but they couldn’t be able to help me with stu
23:17:47 <arseniiv> ff here and all topping it off I’m blessed with great myopia right from the start and I have a little endocrynal problem which maybe fixed itself somehow but I blame my lack of motivation on it. And this damn country is bad for people in statistical tails like me. I wonder how do people with real physical deficiences live here at all but this doesn’t help my case by any means. Maybe I was just unlucky too many times, I don’t know,
23:17:47 <arseniiv> it is hard to try to plot some course and make goals and all that now. I steer away from stressful things and résumé is stressful because it should ideally be blank and who wants me with a blank one, who’s interested in my unfinished understanding of hyperbolic spaces
23:18:57 <arseniiv> imode: I don’t think it will help anyone but I tried to express what it feels all at once, though it’s not unbiased and it shouldn’t ideally be logged but I knew what I did
23:20:27 <arseniiv> I can’t even prove to myself my baseline is not good as I’m quite often cheerful, and intend to continue that, but I have to solve all that at some moment and I can’t
23:21:25 <arseniiv> all these knots is I maybe could solve thing A and thing B if I solved things C and D but they are all interdependent
23:22:48 <arseniiv> playing with abstract mathematical things is way more forgiving
23:23:30 <arseniiv> you can stow them away and they don’t mind
23:23:41 <arseniiv> I need to be sorry for this
23:24:30 <zzo38> Why do you need to be sorry for this?
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23:31:37 <imode> yyyyikes, I thought they were in academia and at least had some kind of refuge.
23:33:30 <imode> I mean, I have myopia, and my self confidence was shot for several years.
23:36:35 <int-e> life is complicated
23:37:01 <imode> hard living life without any real-life friends.
23:42:53 <esowiki> [[FakeScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82939 * JanMakuwe * (+1815) Created page with "'''FakeScript''' is an esolang created by [[User:JanMakuwe]]. The language was meant to be relatively easy to implement for both JanMakuwe and others who don't know much about..."
23:48:34 <imode> what would thue look like with a modifiable rule store, I wonder.
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23:59:39 <esowiki> [[Struffoli]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82940&oldid=81064 * Zero player rodent * (+16)
2021-05-16
00:21:12 <les-citrons> will the featured language never be changed?
00:22:20 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82941&oldid=82917 * JanMakuwe * (+17) Added FakeScript
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02:15:04 <b_jonas> les-citrons: it got changed a year or two ago
02:24:43 <chibi> What would it take to feature another language?
02:25:11 <chibi> Are there any contenders for articles of quality approaching that of the currently featured?
02:46:26 <imode> whatchu mean, thue is awesome.
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06:08:16 <esowiki> [[Spacebar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82942&oldid=82569 * AndrewBayly * (-1)
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08:44:00 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82943&oldid=82889 * Im-a-user * (+179)
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09:10:24 <esowiki> [[Functional deadfish~]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82944 * Im-a-user * (+1611) Created page with "== Functional deadfish~ == Functional deadfish~ is a combination of [[Functional deadfish]] and [[Deadfish~]]. It has a single accumulator, which ranges from 0-255 unless squ..."
09:13:57 <esowiki> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82945&oldid=82924 * Im-a-user * (+148) Update list
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09:20:59 <esowiki> [[Functional deadfish~]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82946&oldid=82944 * Im-a-user * (-2)
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13:42:16 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82947&oldid=79315 * Abyxlrz * (-50)
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15:22:14 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82948&oldid=79324 * Abyxlrz * (-2326)
15:25:40 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82949&oldid=82947 * Abyxlrz * (+100)
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16:48:53 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82950&oldid=82948 * Abyxlrz * (+54)
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16:51:32 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82951&oldid=78504 * Abyxlrz * (+161)
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19:22:19 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82952&oldid=82950 * Bangyen * (+99)
19:22:51 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82953&oldid=82952 * Bangyen * (-1) /* Interpreters */
19:28:53 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82954&oldid=82951 * Bangyen * (+435)
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19:29:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82955&oldid=82954 * Bangyen * (+81) /* Questions */
19:35:05 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82956&oldid=76538 * Bangyen * (+58) /* Implementations */
19:54:22 <esowiki> [[6-5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82957&oldid=75999 * Bangyen * (+176)
19:58:20 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82958&oldid=82956 * Bangyen * (+10) /* Implementations */
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20:24:12 <maddoc74> hi all! I wrote a brainfuck interpreter as a fun lil side project, and am trying to run the "Conway's game of life" program, but it has parentheses instructions. Are these a common extension? What do they do?
20:24:39 <zzo38> Anything that isn't a valid instruction should be ignored.
20:25:01 <myname> this. possibly added by the dev to get some structure in the code or something
20:25:12 <myname> my goto test is the brainfuck interpreter in brainfuck
20:25:25 <maddoc74> Ah, I've been terminating the program when it sees something it doesn't handle
20:25:37 <maddoc74> that makes my life much easier!
20:25:45 <maddoc74> Thanks!
20:27:09 <fizzie> A lot of brainfuck programs contain "comments" (just arbitrary text), so it's a good idea to support the non-instructions-are-ignored property.
20:33:12 <maddoc74> would ya look at that: https://i.imgur.com/FO9Cd7e.png
20:33:12 <maddoc74> Amazing!
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20:41:27 <b_jonas> great!
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22:20:18 <arseniiv> my Brainfuck explorations ended up with a simple bytecode compiler-and-interpreter which used an opcode with a multiplicity for +…+, -…-, <…<, >…> and also precomputed jumps for [ and ], and I think that was all I thought was interesting :D
22:22:40 <int-e> arseniiv: you could attack balanced inner loops, where "balanced" means that the body doesn't move the pointer
22:23:36 <int-e> [>+<-] --> data[1] += data[0]; data[0] = 0; ... potentially with a sign check for data[0] depending on wraparound.
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22:27:38 <arseniiv> int-e: good point!
22:27:47 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82959&oldid=82935 * Caenbe * (+29) Can't remember why I didn't apply this cat initially; maybe I forgot?
22:29:31 <esowiki> [[Fun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82960&oldid=82933 * AndrewBayly * (+116)
22:31:00 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82961&oldid=82958 * Bangyen * (+125) /* Implementations */
22:31:39 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82962&oldid=82959 * Caenbe * (+34) Possibly better wording
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2021-05-17
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02:03:57 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82963&oldid=82932 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+148)
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02:44:48 <esowiki> [[Suffolk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82964&oldid=75928 * Bangyen * (+90) /* Implementations */
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03:02:56 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82965&oldid=82962 * Caenbe * (+104) May as well mention this at the top for completeness, I guess
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05:03:57 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82966&oldid=82953 * Abyxlrz * (-16)
05:05:15 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82967&oldid=82966 * Abyxlrz * (-3)
05:08:05 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82968&oldid=82955 * Abyxlrz * (+258)
05:08:18 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82969&oldid=82968 * Abyxlrz * (+2)
05:08:40 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82970&oldid=82969 * Abyxlrz * (+11)
05:13:22 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82971&oldid=82967 * Abyxlrz * (-152)
05:14:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82972&oldid=82970 * Abyxlrz * (-161)
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06:43:23 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82973&oldid=54694 * Bangyen * (+127)
06:44:06 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82974&oldid=82961 * Bangyen * (+15) /* Implementations */
06:51:22 <esowiki> [[Albabet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82975&oldid=82453 * Bangyen * (+75)
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08:15:37 <esowiki> [[Dimensional]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82976&oldid=61373 * TheCoderPro * (+29) MMM Yummy Beans
08:24:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System/File System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82977&oldid=70494 * TheCoderPro * (+48)
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10:08:35 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82978&oldid=70491 * Oklomsy * (-830)
10:11:16 <esowiki> [[User:Oklomsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82979&oldid=82978 * Oklomsy * (+610)
10:21:53 <esowiki> [[Modulous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82980&oldid=82971 * Abyxlrz * (-6)
10:23:36 <esowiki> [[User:Abyxlrz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82981&oldid=82949 * Abyxlrz * (-47)
10:25:22 <esowiki> [[Firstreplace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82982&oldid=80513 * Abyxlrz * (-74)
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11:56:03 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82983&oldid=82943 * Sanscicondos * (+85) added updated sanscicondos signature
12:00:26 <esowiki> [[HelloWorld]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82984&oldid=75001 * Sanscicondos * (+139) /* Compiler */
12:02:08 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82985&oldid=82881 * Sanscicondos * (+82) /* Bug Reports */ updated signature
12:05:16 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82986&oldid=82872 * Sanscicondos * (+484) /* Discussion */ added the firt dicussion post
12:06:59 <esowiki> [[Talk:Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82987&oldid=82986 * Sanscicondos * (+52) /* Know Bugs As of Version [Alpha 1.3] */
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12:16:46 <esowiki> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82988&oldid=82985 * Sanscicondos * (+408) added version 1.3.5
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13:32:35 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Sanscicondos * uploaded "[[File:401964AE-B050-4577-B678-7805EC3799C0.jpeg]]": we are collective.
13:34:22 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=82990 * Sanscicondos * (+77) Created page with "[[File:401964AE-B050-4577-B678-7805EC3799C0.jpeg|lmaoBig|we are collective.]]"
13:34:43 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82991&oldid=82990 * Sanscicondos * (-2) we are collective
13:38:07 <esowiki> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82992&oldid=82887 * Sanscicondos * (+22) edited project teases
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18:10:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82993&oldid=82991 * Ais523 * (+322) what's the source for your images?
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18:38:40 <esowiki> [[Pain]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82994&oldid=82684 * RetroPain * (+357)
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18:47:34 <esowiki> [[!aBF']] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82995&oldid=82965 * Caenbe * (+6)
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20:24:18 <esowiki> [[Minifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82996&oldid=20057 * Bangyen * (+125)
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20:27:49 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82997&oldid=18965 * Bangyen * (+159)
20:28:10 <esowiki> [[Talk:Minifuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82998&oldid=82997 * Bangyen * (+82) /* Cat Program */
20:36:51 <esowiki> [[Stop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=82999&oldid=73146 * Bangyen * (-2)
20:46:08 <esowiki> [[User:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83000&oldid=82974 * Bangyen * (+15) /* Implementations */
20:49:33 <oerjan> `olist 1234
20:49:34 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1234.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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22:36:16 <esowiki> [[Stax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83001&oldid=77982 * Cameron * (+148)
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23:17:47 <fizzie> Heh, I was wondering why recent channel logs were taking a lot more space than the older ones. "Surely the channel can't have become *more* active lately?" Turns out it's because the brotli command-line tool no longer accepts `--quality 11` as a flag, but requires it to be specified as `--quality=11`, causing the weekly batch compress job to stop working.
23:35:47 <oerjan> shocking
23:38:34 <int-e> Oh another satisfying solution in the Ice Palace... always fun to discover a new trick.
23:41:05 <int-e> bitter sweet... I should've found it sooner :P
2021-05-18
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01:07:00 <esowiki> [[Parse this sic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83002&oldid=82562 * Digital Hunter * (+243) /* Computational class */ Updated the underload-to-wdigpcras program to be shorter, and added a wdigpcras-to-underload program
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01:53:45 <esowiki> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83003&oldid=82920 * Tomhe * (+369) /* The Assembly Language */ - add segment+reserve syntax
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