2021-05 2021-06→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-05-20
00:02:20 <esolangs> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83099&oldid=83049 * AndrewBayly * (-3751) /* Main */
00:02:46 <esolangs> [[Num]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83100&oldid=83099 * AndrewBayly * (+1) /* Main */
00:03:45 <fizzie> Oh, right, actually the UTC midnight was just now. Forgot about BST.
00:04:13 <b_jonas> oh... I didn't pay attention to that, yes
00:04:41 <int-e> ozone is fighting it out with chanserv, now there's a sight
00:07:47 <fizzie> Weird. The version of the bot I built on buster segfaults, but the one built on my daily-driver desktop (sid) doesn't.
00:07:55 <fizzie> I built it with Bazel, that's not supposed to happen. ;)
00:08:15 <fizzie> At least it's reproducible, so hopefully I can figure it out.
00:08:26 <int-e> "that was not supposed to happen" is a great candidate for famous last words
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00:11:47 <fizzie> It dies in std::thread::detach(). The system's almost entirely a single-threaded event loop, but there's one thread spawned to handle making blocking getaddrinfo calls, because I thought bundling an external DNS resolver like c-ares would be overkill.
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00:15:13 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-eHB.txt looks p. mysterious. What's that `call 0x0` doing there?
00:16:30 <esolangs> [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83101 * Icecream17 * (+512) Created page with "'''Icecream17/Arbitrary''' is ridiculous The following is subject to change {| class="wikitable" |+ Static programs |- ! Bits !! Hexadecimal source code !! What the source c..."
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00:20:11 <fizzie> The context for the call is `std::thread(<function pointer>, <argument>).detach();`, which I at least naively thought would just mean "start an independent thread running that function".
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00:20:26 <chibi> ohayo.
00:22:26 <chibi> Oh, Libera does ## instead of #?
00:22:45 <fizzie> By my interpretation, we *should* have been ##esoteric on freenode as well.
00:23:09 <keegan> yeah, Freenode had a bunch of channels grandfathered into single-# names
00:23:22 <keegan> although you could argue that #esoteric was the official channel of the open source esolang wiki
00:23:33 <keegan> just like how #trains is the official channel of trainbot
00:24:04 <int-e> keegan: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future has some thoughts in that direction
00:24:10 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone kind of hinted we should think about migrating to ##esoteric on freenode, but we never bothered.
00:24:35 <fizzie> On the Libera policies page, I saw there's this new category of "community channels", between project channels and informal channels.
00:24:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, that's what we say the official policy is because there's a rare case when people when squat a #-channel and staff takes it over for the project with the relevant name for searchability, and we want to have something to back it up. they don't actually mind #-channels when they don't cause trouble like that, but they can't say that officially.
00:25:17 <b_jonas> any long-established #-channel that doesn't steal namespace is fine
00:25:37 <fizzie> As far as Libera goes, I think a "community channel" would be the reasonable designation for this one as the official community channel of esolangs.org, but `#esolangs` would IMO be a more reasonable name than `#esoteric`.
00:25:40 <int-e> b_jonas: I think they care when they have visibility, like #math which was basically forced to become ##math
00:25:41 <fizzie> (Despite the history.)
00:25:57 <example> yea, #esolangs would make more sense at this point
00:26:06 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, #math is stealing prime namespace, it's a channel name that people will type in even without outside references
00:26:15 <int-e> #esoteric, yeah, is probably small enough nobody cares. Also the attitude has probably shifted quite a bit over the years.
00:26:32 <b_jonas> and it's a big channel with occasional drama
00:26:56 <fizzie> ISRT that also happened to ##java, which makes sense, because it's both obvious and having it as #java implies it's associated with whoever owns Java at the moment (Oracle?).
00:27:10 <b_jonas> #esoteric isn't. a few people from the other type of esoterica did find their way in, and some of them were probably genuine rather than sockpuppets trying to make fun of the welcome message
00:27:25 <int-e> b_jonas: I really think #math became ##math mainly to set an example. Any project claiming that name would have to deal with people who wanted to just discuss (talk *about*) math.
00:27:48 <example> pls don't set me. (lemme change my nick back)
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00:28:57 <b_jonas> is there any kind of namespace continuity implied?
00:29:04 <b_jonas> I mean from freenode to libera
00:29:10 <b_jonas> or is it considered new domain?
00:29:16 <moony> uh, new domain afaik
00:31:37 <fizzie> In other news, IDGI. When I build it on that other system, the binary contains https://0x0.st/-eHS.txt as the implementation of std::thread::detach -- when I build it on this one, it just gets a PLT entry <std::thread::detach()@plt> referring to <std::thread::detach()@GLIBCXX_3.4.11>.
00:33:35 <int-e> so the dynamic linker messes up?
00:34:00 <int-e> ..wtf is that google thing doing in there
00:34:22 <fizzie> I think that's just a random symbol that happened to end up associated with address 0 for whatever reason.
00:35:28 <int-e> right, makes sense, sort of
00:35:49 <fizzie> But I don't know how it manages to get a "call 0" in there. Maybe I'll need to look at some intermediate files.
00:37:40 <fizzie> Oh, there *is* a difference in the BUILD files: the working one has commented out features = ["fully_static_link"].
00:37:54 <fizzie> That sounds odd enough that it's probably what's screwing it up.
00:38:27 <fizzie> Though I've no recollection of why that's there in the first place.
00:41:36 <fizzie> Let's give it a whirl.
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00:42:05 <chibi> fizzie: Is #java a place for coffee discussions?
00:42:37 <fizzie> After two years or so of punting it until later, I can finally produce a new binary that works. (Well, assuming it does.)
00:44:30 <b_jonas> chibi: is Java coffee actually such a thing? because I'm quite sure I hadn't heard about that until the Java language people started to spread that origin story. I think they invented that to have a cool explanation for their name like Python.
00:45:25 <fizzie> Java the Indonesian island definitely predates Java the programming language, and is associated with coffee.
00:45:52 <fizzie> Wouldn't know any of the details, though, not being a coffee-ist.
00:46:27 <fizzie> Have I mentioned our team's hybrid coffee/tea break is called a "toffee break", but never has any toffee involved?
00:46:37 <b_jonas> the indonesian island does, yes
00:46:55 <keegan> fizzie: that's sad
00:46:59 <chibi> Apparently so, though my knowledge of coffee extends to how to brew good coffee in a pot and that's about it
00:47:07 <b_jonas> even its name
00:48:12 <chibi> I've never really had toffee, what's it taste like?
00:49:13 <int-e> fizzie: that 0x0 may be __gthrw_pthread_create, which is a /weak/ reference to pthread_create... which might stay 0 if you "forget" to link in pthreads?
00:49:33 <int-e> s/create/detach/g
00:49:38 <fizzie> It's a bit like fudge and caramel.
00:50:23 <int-e> (I'm looking at /usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/c++/10/bits/gthr-default.h)
00:50:59 <fizzie> int-e: Yeah, I think it must've been something about that fully_static_link thing, which I've reconstructed to having been an attempt to produce a binary that I could runs while I didn't have a system with exactly-matching library versions as the target machine big enough to run the build.
00:51:05 <fizzie> Guessing it just wasn't pthreads-compatible.
00:52:04 <chibi> Ooh, maybe that'd be nice to pair with some black coffee
00:52:37 <fizzie> https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/issues/42057 sounds potentially related.
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01:13:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CiaaiK * New user account
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02:12:44 <esolangs> [[Finites at Fredy's]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83102 * Salpynx * (+4732) This was _supposed_ to be a parody, but has become more of an uninspiring, but accurate, review. "Fair use" either way.
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03:52:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83103&oldid=82807 * New Army * (-63) The link doesn't seem to be dead.
03:54:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83104&oldid=83098 * New Army * (+187) /* LifeWiki links */
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05:15:52 <arseniiv> hi let this day be nice to everyone!
05:19:40 <shachaf> I've made toffee before.
05:19:51 <shachaf> Confectionery is neatomatic 4,000.
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06:09:57 <jinn> hello is this the compilier design channel from freenode?
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06:26:37 <jinn> 8-) oh
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08:29:16 <esolangs> [[Spider solitaire]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83105&oldid=83032 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+31)
08:45:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83106&oldid=83104 * Int-e * (+189) /* LifeWiki links */
09:22:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83107&oldid=83106 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+237) /* LifeWiki links */
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11:36:09 <fizzie> Actually, we've never had +t (or problem with "unauthorized" topic changes either), that was just a default setting. Let's get rid of that.
11:36:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
11:36:16 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -t.
11:36:20 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o FireFly.
11:36:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
11:36:29 <fizzie> (Tab completion strikes again.)
11:45:17 <FireFly> haha
11:45:31 <FireFly> Now I'm extra deopped
11:46:58 <b_jonas> > "euZWcKvS2ejX"
11:46:59 <lambdabot> "euZWcKvS2ejX"
11:54:18 <int-e> Oh, -t is allowed? It failed in #esoteric yesterday, somehow...
11:59:05 <fizzie> You need to "chanserv set #chan mlock" from the default (+nt-lk) to something that either doesn't mention t, or has -t. I just set it to +n-lk.
12:06:09 <fizzie> Trying to manage all these channels in one client is a bit of a headache. Only one of my lurking set (#perl) has entirely moved. A couple others just set up forks.
12:13:49 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83108&oldid=83067 * Batata * (-9)
12:14:51 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83109&oldid=83108 * Batata * (+12)
12:15:19 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83110&oldid=83109 * Batata * (-3)
12:16:51 <int-e> fizzie: did I mention that I set up a separate shell account for tracking Libera channels :P
12:24:31 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83111&oldid=83110 * Batata * (+43)
12:25:55 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83112&oldid=83111 * Batata * (+14)
12:26:03 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83113&oldid=83112 * Batata * (-2)
12:41:09 <jinn> elliot and ion are u here in the new channel?
12:42:21 <int-e> jinn: try /who ##esoteric
12:44:03 <b_jonas> or names
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15:39:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83114&oldid=83107 * Taneb * (+360)
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15:48:10 <river> ok
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15:48:30 <river> can we get an esoteric cloak?
15:48:35 <imode> goodbye, freenode, hello libera.
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15:55:42 <int-e> river: You'd need to find a Libera staffer who appreciates the joke.
15:56:08 <int-e> Sad as it is, fizzies boring esolang community idea is more likely to fly.
15:56:38 <int-e> (or esolangs, whatever)
15:57:28 <river> noooooo
15:57:50 <int-e> otoh who needs cloaks :P
15:58:14 <river> people without cool domain names
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16:14:48 <moony> Better solution
16:14:53 <moony> get a cool domain name
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16:33:25 <fizzie> int-e: As a compromise solution, let's register a community with the boring name ("esolangs"), but include `#esoteric` in the list of claimed channel names, on the basis of historical precedent and discoverability.
16:33:46 <fizzie> In either case, I'd kind of give it a bit of time first to see how this Libera thing evolves, before starting a discussion with staffers. I feel like they might have better things to do at the moment, anyway.
16:35:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would mention that it's easier to register a channel and community on OFTC
16:36:40 <b_jonas> or more like, you don't have to register communities
16:36:43 <b_jonas> you can just register a channel
16:36:47 <b_jonas> mind you, that works on freenode too
16:37:06 <b_jonas> the whole group thing is just an official path to resolve namespace conflicts in single-flat-land
16:37:37 <b_jonas> OFTC doesn't bother with that
16:39:48 <fizzie> Yeah, I know; I don't think the difficulty is an issue, though. And I think there's something nice about having a claim that's not just "we were here first", though I don't have a rational reason for that feeling.
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17:13:14 <b_jonas> ok
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17:14:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: does fungot have an command that a bot can use to request that fungot ignore it?
17:15:05 <b_jonas> or maybe a channel that the bot can join to request this?
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17:17:16 <fizzie> Unfortunately not. There's a single regular expression (matched against the message prefix) that defines the ignore list.
17:17:37 <fizzie> Not even persisted, I just re-apply it every time I restart it.
17:17:46 <fizzie> By grepping in my logs if it's fallen off the backscroll.
17:17:52 <fizzie> IOW, a highly productionized setup.
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17:51:05 * nakilon 👀
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18:45:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm... I might have to replace his invocation keyword then
18:46:45 <b_jonas> or just convince you to change that regex
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18:49:04 <nakilon> finally fixing lambdabot?
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19:19:31 <fizzie> I'm happy to change that regex whenever. If it was written in a more reasonable language, I could also consider adding a feature to request being ignored, but as it stands it might be quite long before I'd get to that.
19:19:47 <fizzie> I should probably clean up that list anyway, it's got a lot of legacy cruft. It's currently:
19:19:50 <fizzie> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esowiki|bfbot|egelbot)!
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19:54:53 <moony> hah otherbot
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20:48:09 <int-e> the table on https://libera.chat/guides/extbans makes my eyes hurt a bit
20:48:35 <int-e> (alternating between grey on white and white on grey for code spans)
20:52:11 <fizzie> Hmm, it's all light-on-dark for me, just slightly different shades. But I've got a prefer-dark thing going on, maybe it styles for that.
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21:05:58 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/alternate.png
21:06:10 <int-e> oh, dark theme, hmm
21:13:15 <fizzie> Well, it's not *that* dissimilar in the dark theme either. https://zem.fi/tmp/extbans.png
21:13:45 <fizzie> Got the same thing going where the code span color is the same as the background of the *other* row.
21:16:50 <int-e> I get the idea and the logic but my brain hurts ;)
21:17:46 <Taneb> I've just dropped my account with freenode nickserv and removed the config from my bouncer. Feels like an end of an era
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21:37:15 <arseniiv> shachaf: all of a sudden found your answer on SO about Fix, Mu and Nu in recursion-schemes. Thanks for writing it, clarified a great deal
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21:41:34 <arseniiv> hm is it obvious at first sight if μx. x + x and μx. μy. x + y are (naturally) isomorphic? Oh, nvm they are both empty
21:41:58 <arseniiv> (in the strict sense of course)
21:44:48 <int-e> arseniiv: you could use ux. 1+x+x and uxy. 1+x+y instead
21:44:59 <arseniiv> as for the general situation… The allows ⊥ and x1 + x2 inductively, but as μy. x + y allows only
21:45:02 <arseniiv> oops
21:45:07 <arseniiv> early posted
21:47:18 <arseniiv> as for the general situation… The type A ≡ μx. x + x allows ⊥ and x1 + x2 for x1, x2 :: A inductively, but B ≡ μy. x + y allows only ⊥ and c + y for y :: B so for example (⊥ + ⊥) + ⊥ :: A and not :: B. Hehehe
21:49:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83115&oldid=83114 * Fizzie * (+1128) /* Freenode and the future */ Thoughts about networks.
21:50:21 <arseniiv> int-e: yep that’s an interesting elaboration on 1 + x which is precisely the direction I looked in. Now we have naturals with two successor kinds in the first case (and in case of conaturals, 2^N infinities) and in the second case…
21:51:22 <int-e> arseniiv: x is free in B, I'm confused
21:51:40 <arseniiv> ow I mis-edited it
21:52:32 <arseniiv> I planned to write first about μy. x + y which I did but then I forgot I hadn’t written about the full thing
21:53:40 <arseniiv> (but still (⊥ + ⊥) + ⊥ shouldn’t inhabit μxy. x + y, if I’m correct)
21:55:48 <arseniiv> okay, μxy. 1 + x + y is of course just μx. N + x and that should give us… yep, again less possibilities: first we use just successors of the first kind and then just those other ones, no intermixing, so not naturally isomorphic with μx. 1 + x + x
21:56:08 <arseniiv> I wonder if these two types occur somewhere in practice
21:58:27 <arseniiv> for example conaturals are great for timeout values (like how many small-step evaluations we are allowed to take), even if encoded in a naïve way. That has some charm IMO
22:00:22 <arseniiv> also one could try something with 1 + (x, y) or (1 + x, 1 + y)
22:00:39 <int-e> arseniiv: let X = μx y. x + y, Y = μy. X + y; ⊥ inhabits X and Y, so ⊥ + ⊥ inhabits X, so (⊥ + ⊥) + ⊥ inhabits X.
22:03:51 <arseniiv> int-e: oh
22:04:52 <arseniiv> wait, that Y is something completely different
22:05:15 <int-e> Basically thinking of it as data A = A A B; data B = B A B vs. data C = C C C
22:05:50 <arseniiv> though would we even get to μx. x + x by applying this ΛX.Y repeatedly to X?
22:06:41 <arseniiv> int-e: but those datas are mutually recursive whereas X, Y aren’t
22:07:24 <int-e> arseniiv: X already does the full mutual recursion. Y just occurs in unfolding the outer fixed point.
22:09:34 <arseniiv> ah yes, yes
22:09:53 <int-e> μx y. x + y = ⊥ | Y, Y = ⊥ | X + Y
22:10:05 <int-e> so I guess my datatypes aren't reflecting this accurately
22:11:04 <int-e> And there are two ways to get a bottom from μx y. ..., but we have no way of distinguishing them? Bottoms suck.
22:11:23 <int-e> μx y. 1 + x + y doesn't have that issue
22:12:36 <arseniiv> <int-e> And there are two ways to get a bottom from μx y. ..., but we have no way of distinguishing them? Bottoms suck. => though in the haskellization we should get different bottoms due to explicit wraps and unwraps, wouldn’t we?
22:12:55 <arseniiv> I hadn’t thought too much
22:13:05 <int-e> arseniiv: which is how I realized that my representation is wrong
22:14:03 <arseniiv> ah, that post was about this
22:14:05 <int-e> data A = A B; data B = B A B <-- it's more like this, and then you do get distinct _|_ and A _|_ before branching. Also, evidently, I'm doing a product instead of a sum.
22:14:34 -!- Wezl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:14:34 <int-e> data B = B1 A | B2 B
22:15:07 <arseniiv> I agree 1 + x + y and not concerning ourselves with ⊥-containing terms is clearer
22:15:21 <arseniiv> yep I hadn’t even see you did a product at the first time
22:15:28 <arseniiv> :D
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22:17:20 <int-e> There must be a bunch of papers about how this invalidates generic programming in Haskell ;)
22:17:40 <arseniiv> lol
22:19:37 <int-e> . o O ( The Haskell programmer's heaven is a bottom-less pit. )
22:19:43 <arseniiv> and it shows I wrote something incomprehensible about μxy. 1 + x + y being the same as μx. x + N :\
22:20:31 <arseniiv> int-e: I bet what many haskellers’ jokes are about is Just Nothing
22:20:45 <arseniiv> at least I can definitely say fix Just Nothing does what it says
22:20:52 <int-e> > fix error -- practical joke
22:20:54 <lambdabot> "*Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Exception: *Ex...
22:21:36 <arseniiv> (it’s a bit unfair I came up with those two some half an hour earlier and just copied them here)
22:22:01 <arseniiv> yeah I remember fix error, I adviced it to several people
22:22:18 <arseniiv> I have it adviced to this time*
22:22:38 <ski> > fix show
22:22:39 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
22:22:54 <chibi> Huh, what's fix?
22:22:58 <chibi> > t:fix
22:22:58 <int-e> > iterate error "" -- kind of disappointing
22:22:59 <lambdabot> error:
22:22:59 <lambdabot> • Couldn't match expected type ‘[Expr]’
22:22:59 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘(a0 -> a0) -> a0’
22:22:59 <lambdabot> ["","*Exception:
22:23:06 <ski> fix f = x
22:23:08 <ski> where
22:23:13 <ski> x = f x
22:23:30 <arseniiv> ski: oh, 2^n − 1, nice
22:23:46 <chibi> ahah.
22:23:54 <int-e> fix f = last $ iterate f undefined -- find the error
22:23:59 <ski> imho, escape characters ought not to be escaped, using themselves as indicator character
22:24:06 <arseniiv> I remember b_jonas saying something about rational escape syntax
22:24:44 <int-e> @src undefined
22:24:45 <lambdabot> undefined = error "Prelude.undefined"
22:24:52 <int-e> (there's one error!)
22:25:05 <ski> GNU Screen gets this right. `^A' is the (default) escape character. to send a literal `^A' (e.g. to a nested session), you do `^Aa'. for two nested, you get `^Aaa'. linear instead of exponential
22:25:17 <ski> (iirc TMux does the same)
22:26:06 <int-e> . o O ( don't nest screens )
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22:27:05 <b_jonas> what escape syntax?
22:27:09 <b_jonas> hmm
22:27:09 <int-e> ^Aa is slightly less convenient at depth 1.
22:27:09 <ski> if `\' was escaped as `\/' (say), then `fix show' above would be `"\"\/"\//"\///"\////"..."'
22:27:24 <int-e> Also taking ^A away from readline is wrong.
22:27:30 <b_jonas> I might have said that I use \x5C all the time instead of \\
22:27:51 <b_jonas> and that I wish K&R set a simple letter escape to mean a backslash, like \s instead of \\
22:27:57 <b_jonas> so that we could have it standardized by now
22:28:05 <ski> (hard to avoid nesting Screens, when you have a mediate SSH (or `su', say))
22:28:07 <int-e> So... personally I'm going against the quoting efficiency with escape ^B^B
22:28:36 * ski normally uses `escape ^Zz'
22:28:44 <ski> (i don't suspend that often anyway)
22:29:10 <int-e> I suspend things a lot more than is healthy.
22:29:11 <ski> b_jonas : yes
22:29:27 <b_jonas> but as for screen, I use ^Qq , and in the rare case when I have two screens nested, one of them uses ^Qq and the other ^Aa
22:29:29 <ski> (using `escape ^Oo' as alternate)
22:29:40 <int-e> ^Z, less a file, forget about the background job... later that day, kill half a dozen pending jobs
22:30:09 <int-e> but there's also the banal ^Z; kill %1 trick that often works when ^C doesn't
22:31:10 <int-e> fungot: where are you and what's an idiosyncracy?
22:31:25 <int-e> `? freenode
22:31:37 <int-e> oh
22:32:20 <b_jonas> I do admit that I decided Consumer Society has a less than ideal escape syntax, one that can cause leaning toothpick syndrome
22:32:34 <fizzie> Hmm, why didn't that work.
22:32:35 <ski> what's that ?
22:32:56 <b_jonas> fungot?
22:33:07 <ski> "Consumer Society" ?
22:33:11 <int-e> fizzie: well, no hackeso?
22:33:14 <fizzie> No, the `? freenode -- and I guess it's because HackEso is gone, but I'm not sure why.
22:33:17 <b_jonas> `echo z0eNGh9ji3Y
22:33:31 <b_jonas> ski: it's an esolang I'm making, or one of a sibling pair of esolangs rather
22:33:36 <int-e> 08:10:45 --- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: lambdabot, HackEso, chibi
22:33:38 <ski> ah
22:33:46 <int-e> so gone for ... 16 hours
22:33:58 <ski> how does its escaping work ?
22:34:18 <int-e> cause a netsplit, don't come back --> successful escape
22:34:43 <ski> chibi is a Scheme bot ?
22:35:04 <b_jonas> ski: won't tell yet, the details are not public, but it's one that expands exponentially if you try to nest it
22:35:05 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, it had a temporary network problem, but one that caused it to be immediately "connection refused"ing, and systemd went all "Start request repeated too quickly" and gave up.
22:35:05 <ski> oh, apparently not
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22:35:25 <ski> b_jonas : i'm sorry to hear :/
22:35:27 <fizzie> `ping
22:35:28 <HackEso> pong
22:35:34 <fizzie> That was simple enough.
22:35:44 <int-e> fizzie: ah. I think lambdabot just sleeps for 3 minutes and tries again
22:35:46 <b_jonas> `echo XpKudeGz98Ar fungot
22:35:47 <HackEso> XpKudeGz98Ar fungot
22:35:50 <int-e> (well the loop that controls it)
22:37:09 <fizzie> I don't have fungot over on this side, though I guess I could. It wouldn't have the same shared "repository" (in terms of ^def and such), but OTOH those commands aren't really used much.
22:37:15 <arseniiv> lambdabot sleeps! I knew it!
22:37:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: you don't have to, if you only have fungot on one side then you won't need to make it ignore the bridge
22:37:57 <lambdabot> . z Z
22:39:13 <b_jonas> fungot will work well that way because it's triggered by a keyword inside the line, pear tree style, unlike most bots that are triggered by a marking at the start of the message contents, so they should be present on all sides or have special code to accomodate the bridge
22:39:20 <b_jonas> well...
22:39:32 <b_jonas> yeah, there are caret commands where the trigger is at the start of a line
22:39:33 <lambdabot> int-e: Stop impersonating me, it's annoying!
22:39:36 <arseniiv> lambdabot: @goodnight
22:39:36 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:39:36 <b_jonas> that complicates things
22:40:05 <arseniiv> hm this gives me strange ideas
22:40:15 <b_jonas> yes, #esoteric tends to do that
22:40:20 <arseniiv> int-e: > 2 + 2 maybe maybe?
22:40:49 <int-e> arseniiv: some sort of parse error
22:40:55 <int-e> > 2 + 2 maybe maybe?
22:40:56 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:19: error:
22:40:56 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
22:40:57 <arseniiv> hm should have made “maybe maybe” a comment
22:41:18 <fizzie> Bridges are kind of awkward, but I guess there's the benefit that we might see a cross-network botloop.
22:41:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's why I asked about fungot's ignore facilities
22:41:51 <b_jonas> so the bot can ask fungot to ignore it
22:42:00 <b_jonas> s/bot/bridge/
22:49:49 <fizzie> int-e: I'm sure that delay is something I could configure in the .service file. Probably by setting "RestartSec=...", because the log also says "Service RestartSec=100ms expired, scheduling restart" between the 6 attempts it made.
22:50:41 <int-e> fizzie: ah I don't know about that, I have a python script
22:51:45 <fizzie> I've been trying to be all modern.
22:52:48 <int-e> I have systemd units somewhere else, but nothing that actively connects over the network and has to try to be nice .
22:53:24 <fizzie> fungot I've got running in a screen that I just start completely manually. :)
22:59:10 <int-e> fizzie: why do it manually when you can do https://paste.debian.net/1198292/
23:00:08 <int-e> (the best part is where it sleeps for 0.3 seconds because `top` is so slow to start up)
23:01:09 <int-e> my lambdabot setup is *not* modern or nice
23:01:53 <b_jonas> none of my setups are modern
23:01:58 <b_jonas> I don't believe in modern stuff
23:02:34 <b_jonas> or at least I believe in only some modern stuff and not others
23:02:36 <b_jonas> I'm selective
23:02:40 <int-e> fizzie: The thing is, I started out exactly as you described... set up screen, start the bot from inside screen
23:02:59 <int-e> fizzie: and over time I added more default screens, and then I got tired of doing it manually every reboot :)
23:03:29 <int-e> but the path of least resistance was to just keep the basic setup and automate it
23:03:55 <int-e> and by now the result is not safe for audiences outside of this channel
23:06:10 <int-e> and it's kind of useful for experimentation... if the socat needs tweaking I can ^C there and modify the command line
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2021-05-21
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01:06:37 <esolangs> [[3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+936) Created page with "3 is an esoteric programming language which is a subset of JavaScript. In 3, every sequence of 3 consecutive character must contain at least one 3. ==Sample Programs== ===He..."
01:07:02 <esolangs> [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83117&oldid=83116 * AndrewBayly * (+1)
01:12:43 <chibi> ski: I'm not a bot, and unfortunately I don't know scheme either :P
01:13:28 <ski> yea, i realized
01:13:45 <ski> i just associated to the Chibi implementation of Scheme (by foof, iirc)
01:15:39 <int-e> little schemers...
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01:25:25 <chibi> Heh, maybe I should learn scheme
01:30:45 <esolangs> [[3]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83118&oldid=83117 * AndrewBayly * (+82)
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07:03:55 <Taneb> Good morning!
07:04:13 <shachaf> Haneb!
07:05:54 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
07:05:56 <HackEso> Tanebventions include necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the hug, Italian, the grace period, the limerick, ruin, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths or tanebventions: foods. He never invents anything involving sex.
07:06:07 <shachaf> `? ruin
07:06:09 <HackEso> ruin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:08:03 <shachaf> `dowg ruin
07:08:08 <HackEso> 11515:2018-04-17 <wob_jonäs> forget ruin//ruin \ 11514:2018-04-17 <int-̈e> learn ruin//Ruin lies in ruins after a ruined ruination by Taneb.
07:08:58 <shachaf> Maybe int-e meant to use le/rn and it never happened.
07:08:58 <Taneb> How ruinous
07:09:16 <Taneb> `? ruin//Ruin
07:09:17 <HackEso> ruin//Ruin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
07:10:16 <shachaf> `cbt forget
07:10:17 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/sh \ for n; do if [ lethe = "$n" ]; then rm -f "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; else rm-p "$HACKENV/wisdom/$n"; fi && echo "Forget what?"; done
07:10:24 <shachaf> `cbt rm-p
07:10:24 <HackEso> rm "$1" && { rmdir -p "$(dirname "$1")" 2>/dev/null; exit 0; }
07:11:04 <shachaf> i,i lecturer in recent ruins
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08:24:26 <int-e> shachaf: stranger things have happened
08:37:20 <int-e> shachaf: in context you probably ruined the joke for me, err I mean gently convinced me it wasn't worth it
10:44:11 <esolangs> [[Categorial]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83119&oldid=81196 * Int-e * (-66) Remove non-category, again. Sigh.
10:56:15 <esolangs> [[C = theNextIntegerThatComesAfterAnotherIntegerWithTheValueOf(c)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83120&oldid=80756 * Int-e * (+0) fix cat(meow)egory typo
10:57:33 <fizzie> Just found out that ^ that silly thing will segfault if the wiki is edited during a moment when it's temporarily disconnected from IRC.
10:58:18 <fizzie> // TODO: don't try until a connection has been established
11:00:25 <int-e> hah
11:00:39 <int-e> `quote todo
11:00:40 <HackEso> 7) <SimonRC> TODO: sex life \ 21) SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): <ehird> i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! \ 29) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
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13:11:33 <esolangs> [[Fargo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83121&oldid=81584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+3) /* Truth-machine */ fix
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13:21:10 <fizzie> I think the reason that got left as a TODO is it wasn't quite as trivial as just not calling flush; I've just got a single send queue, which is also used for the connection registration (NICK/PASS and so on), but optimally you'd want an "external" send to either wait until *after* that has completed. Hmm.
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14:30:17 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83122&oldid=83113 * Batata * (+12)
14:30:27 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83123&oldid=83122 * Batata * (+4)
14:30:59 <int-e> fizzie: leave it for later :P
14:32:10 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83124&oldid=83123 * Batata * (+8)
14:32:56 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83125&oldid=83124 * Batata * (+54)
14:33:14 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83126&oldid=83125 * Batata * (-7)
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14:33:35 <fizzie> Maybe the right thing to do (on the library level) is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel. I don't want to end up in a situation where it's offline for days, then joins and floods all wiki changes at once.
14:34:05 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83127&oldid=83126 * Batata * (+31)
14:34:20 -!- moony has changed nick to cd.
14:34:24 <int-e> or overengineer it with a ring buffer of configurable length
14:34:52 <fizzie> Strictly speaking it's got one ring buffer of configurable length already. :)
14:36:08 <fizzie> Maybe I'll engineer it into a combination ring buffer and priority queue / dependency tree thing, so that you can express the notion "send this but only when this constraint is satisfied".
14:38:30 <fizzie> It's also got one of those flow control things where it tracks how much "credit" you're expected to have, with different commands having a different base cost, and a constant rate of refill.
14:39:13 <fizzie> Which I think I looked at one of the (simpler) ircd's to set up. And then rounded up a little, because you can't quite predict how it will look like to the server.
14:44:57 <int-e> . o O ( semaphore )
14:47:08 <b_jonas> "Maybe the right thing to do […] is to just drop messages that are attempted to be sent while not on channel." => certainly better than segfaulting
15:05:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83128&oldid=82963 * Batata * (+49)
15:06:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83129&oldid=83128 * Batata * (-3)
15:06:58 <fizzie> That's an odd edit.
15:08:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83130&oldid=83129 * Batata * (-4)
15:09:42 <int-e> but mostly harmless?
15:10:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83131&oldid=83130 * Batata * (+72)
15:11:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83132&oldid=83131 * Batata * (+12)
15:14:20 <fizzie> Yeah, I just wonder what it's leading to.
15:14:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ilaylevy * New user account
15:14:38 <oren> wait why would mussolini make everyone speak spanish
15:14:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83133&oldid=83132 * Batata * (-2)
15:15:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83134&oldid=83133 * Batata * (-12)
15:15:27 <int-e> oren: too much Monty Python?
15:22:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83135&oldid=83127 * Batata * (+44)
15:23:11 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83136&oldid=83135 * Batata * (+0)
15:24:53 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83137&oldid=83136 * Batata * (+2)
15:25:16 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83138&oldid=83137 * Batata * (+1)
15:27:13 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83139&oldid=83138 * Batata * (+0)
15:28:40 * cd angrily shakes fist at user that isn’t using the Preview button
15:33:05 <fizzie> I know there's some (at least two) approaches that force a preview before save, but I don't know if it's really worth it.
15:34:24 <fizzie> If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does.
15:35:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83140&oldid=83089 * Ilaylevy * (+143) /* Introductions */
15:36:04 <esolangs> [[Yogurt]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (+446) Created page with "<h1>Yogurt is a language that uses only 1 character to do a certain action, for example:</h1> {| class="wikitable" |+ Caption text |- ! Symbol !! Action |- | p || prints the c..."
15:37:34 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83142&oldid=83139 * Batata * (+0)
15:38:01 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83143&oldid=83142 * Batata * (+9)
15:45:42 <nakilon> ?dowg
15:45:42 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yow docs do
15:46:07 <nakilon> `?dowg
15:46:09 <HackEso> ​?dowg? No such file or directory
15:46:16 <nakilon> `? dowg
15:46:17 <HackEso> A dowg is a wise dog. One who uses many dowgs is known as a dowager.
15:46:28 <nakilon> `? cbt
15:46:29 <HackEso> ​`cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark.
15:49:39 <nakilon> how and what these bots respond makes me feel stupid
15:50:36 <int-e> `hurl ../bin/cbt
15:50:37 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/bin/cbt
15:51:15 <int-e> oh, of course.
15:51:17 <int-e> `cbt cbt
15:51:18 <HackEso> cat $HACKENV/bin/"$1"
15:51:29 <int-e> `hwrl cbt
15:51:30 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/wisdom/cbt
15:52:54 <int-e> `? cbt
15:52:55 <HackEso> ​`cbt was the moment when bin/ jumped the shark.
15:53:30 <int-e> Oh it prepends a `... when did that happen
15:55:21 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-04-18.html#lNb is less illuminating than I hoped
15:58:19 <nakilon> `cbt mkx
15:58:20 <HackEso> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
16:01:19 <nakilon> `cbt mk
16:01:20 <HackEso> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
16:01:25 <nakilon> oh god
16:03:55 <fizzie> HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch.
16:05:51 <int-e> nakilon: maybe the trouble with wisdoms is that it's impossible to tell apart the smart ones from the stupid but obscure ones.
16:06:45 <int-e> (and of course some of them combine both qualities, smart and obscure)
16:06:56 <nakilon> `cbt hurl
16:06:57 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \ else: \ print ("https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/log/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(f))
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16:10:14 <tech_exorcist> hello
16:10:52 <int-e> nakilon: there's url, for the url of a file in the repo; hurl for its history... and then silly things like hwrl for hurl, but relative to $HACKENV/wisdom
16:10:55 <cd> `relcome
16:10:56 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:11:24 <int-e> `hbrl cbt
16:11:25 <HackEso> hbrl? No such file or directory
16:11:35 <int-e> not this one, okay.
16:11:52 <int-e> `hoag ../bin/cbt
16:11:54 <HackEso> ​<fizzïe> sled /hackenv/bin/cbt//s|cat bin|cat $HACKENV/bin| \ <shachäf> mkx bin/cbt//cat bin/"$1"
16:12:20 <int-e> Somebody explained that one to me at least once but I forgot.
16:12:26 <nakilon> `cbt hoag
16:12:27 <HackEso> hlnp --removed --template "{desc}\n" -- "$@"
16:12:54 <cd> Half the scripts in bin are just incomprehensible aha
16:12:54 <nakilon> `cbt hlnp
16:12:55 <HackEso> scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[<Itb][^ ]*\)\([^ ][^ ]\)/\1̈\3/'
16:13:20 <int-e> `? nitia
16:13:21 <HackEso> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
16:13:30 <cd> `? Moony
16:13:32 <HackEso> moony is often named the following: moonythedwarf moonythehuman moonheart08 moon moon__ noomy computing and luxon, making porthellos and @tells a real pain.
16:13:44 <int-e> `culprits ../quotes
16:13:46 <HackEso> arseniïv int-̈e user345̈6 kspalaiologös km̈c wib_jonäs fizzïe oerjän fizzïe fizzïe fizzïe arseniïv ais52̈3 ais52̈3 ais52̈3 kspalaiologös oerjän km̈c km̈c shachäf oerjän oerjän b_jonäs oerjän b_jonäs b_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän arseniïv oerjän oerjän alercäh oerjän shachäf shachäf wob_jonäs shachäf oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän oerjän int-̈e shachäf int-̈e int-̈e oer
16:13:47 <cd> now cd and moon get to be added to the list, huzzah
16:13:56 <int-e> ah, too long, hmm
16:14:18 <cd> If only I remembered how to edit wisdom entries
16:14:22 <cd> it’s been quite a bit
16:15:53 <nakilon> `cbt sled
16:15:54 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ opts="${2--i}" \ [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo 'usage: sled file//script'; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; [[ -f "$key" ]] || { echo 'Rosebud!'; exit 1; }; sed $opts "$value" "$key" ;
16:16:39 <int-e> `cwlprits ../bin/roll
16:16:41 <HackEso> nitïa
16:16:43 <nakilon> Rosebud? wtf
16:17:08 -!- mrkajetanp has joined.
16:17:13 <int-e> nakilon: note the command name
16:17:28 <int-e> or maybe you don't know the movie, hmm
16:17:35 <int-e> (spoiler warning)
16:17:35 <fizzie> Tempted to do a tvtropes ItWasHisSled link here.
16:17:37 <cd> heh
16:17:53 <cd> Took me a minute
16:17:56 -!- cd has changed nick to moony.
16:18:46 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/109/
16:19:00 <shachaf> int-e: Oh no, I don't want to be a ruiner of jokes.
16:19:20 <nakilon> wtf
16:20:03 <moony> No command line tool is complete without a sense of humor
16:20:06 <int-e> Oh wow. https://www.irc.com/lets-take-irc-further
16:20:20 <nakilon> I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me
16:20:22 <int-e> moony: every unix program will evolve until it can read email
16:21:01 <moony> humor@unix.tools
16:21:23 <int-e> (followup: rm -rf /var/spool/mail = read mail, really fast)
16:21:25 <moony> (Sadly not a real domain)
16:22:06 <fizzie> `` cbt rnooodl # speaking of obsolete nonsense
16:22:07 <nakilon> "However it happened, this person who I will never know, spent an hour teaching me how to use IRC."
16:22:08 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
16:22:15 <nakilon> yeah there was a time when people were open to be taught
16:23:15 <moony> Hackego’s bin is treasure trove of random silly things from across time
16:24:09 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, the generalized version is not obsolete.
16:24:20 <shachaf> `dobg rnooodl
16:24:22 <HackEso> 8518:2016-06-17 <oerjän> ` hg cat -r 5060d5af0b98 bin/rnooodl >bin/rnooodl \ 8202:2016-05-29 <shachäf> sed -i s/w/wW/ bin/rnooodl \ 8198:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\W])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8197:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/([^w\\w])\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8196:2016-05-29 <oerjän> mkx bin/rnooodl//perl -pe \'s/(\\w)\\1\\1/"@{[$1 x(3+rand 7)]}"/ge\' \ 8195:2016-05-29 <oerja
16:24:58 <int-e> shachaf may be better at explaining the finer points of bin/ etymology
16:25:45 <moony> Hm, I don’t remember, there’s a way for a command to figure out what user is running it correct?
16:26:00 <int-e> `whoami
16:26:01 <HackEso> int-e
16:26:09 <int-e> `cbt whoami
16:26:10 <HackEso> echo -n $IRC_NICK; if [[ "$1" == "-v" && -n "$IRC_IDENT" ]]; then echo -n "!$IRC_IDENT"; if [[ -n "$IRC_HOST" ]]; then echo -n "@$IRC_HOST"; fi; fi; echo
16:26:29 <moony> Ah yep there we to
16:26:32 <moony> *go
16:27:05 <fizzie> `` env | grep ^IRC | paste
16:27:06 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.2156
16:27:20 <nakilon> `cbt paste
16:27:21 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$1" ] && url "$1" 2>/dev/null # Save making a file when it already exists. \ then \ true \ else \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/tmp/paste \ \ url $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat -- "${1--}" > $HACKENV/tmp/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ fi
16:27:45 <fizzie> `` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine
16:27:46 <HackEso> ​`` echo $IRC_MESSAGE # laziest quine
16:27:50 <nakilon> omg we even have a pastebin
16:27:57 <moony> i have some ideas again but I’m on phone which is a terrible place to do shell scripting
16:27:58 <fizzie> Oh no, the whitespace got lost in there.
16:28:15 <fizzie> Well, collapsed, not lost.
16:29:10 <int-e> `` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine
16:29:11 <HackEso> ​`` echo "$IRC_MESSAGE" # laziest quine
16:29:42 <int-e> (just checking, I was only 99% sure)
16:33:28 <shachaf> So I used to think of "quine just literally reading the program code" and "quine doing it properly" as very distinct classes, with the former one cheating.
16:33:48 <shachaf> But then I was thinking about writing a .COM program which is also a quine.
16:34:04 <shachaf> And in that situation the line is much more blurry.
16:36:10 <int-e> von Neumann quines vs. Harvard quines.
16:37:32 <shachaf> Right.
16:38:58 <b_jonas> `env
16:38:59 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=##esoteric \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
16:39:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: for the future when we might own #esoteric on libera, you should consider to add an env-var to distinguish chat networks (sorry)
16:41:20 <b_jonas> "HackEso's /hackenv/bin is like one of those cases where you have an isolated ecological niche, like a small island or something, and evolution just goes off the rails in there and produces something that only barely resembles any mainstream branch." => yeah. and I live in the continent and don't eat kangaroo meat.
16:41:34 -!- imode has joined.
16:42:08 <fizzie> That's a pretty short environment. And yeah. Although I'm still partial to the boring `#esolangs` name (sorry).
16:42:41 <shachaf> Wait, this channel is about esoteric languages?
16:43:04 <moony> I thought this was just a chat room, since when were funny looking languages involve
16:43:49 <b_jonas> "<nakilon> I can't tell if it's the world becomes crazier every year or is it me" => possibly both
16:44:13 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83144&oldid=83022 * Zero player rodent * (-464)
16:45:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm fine with #esolangs as long as we redirect #esoteric there for discoverability
16:46:18 <b_jonas> we have seen users return to #esoteric after years of absence, and if there are such in the future, they will look for #esoteric on libera and freenode
16:47:23 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | rasel
16:47:24 <HackEso> bin/rasel
16:47:52 <b_jonas> moony: the funny looking languages are involved by being collected on the wiki as a public service to keep terrible articles away from wikipedia. we are the heirs of Intercal and so we clean up our own garbage.
16:48:14 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:48:14 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:48:20 <nakilon> hm
16:48:39 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ./rasel
16:48:40 <HackEso> bin/rasel
16:48:47 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:48:48 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:48:54 <moony> Ahaha yes, I’ve had to clean people’s so langs off of wikipedia
16:49:10 <moony> autocorreeccccccctttttttt! Stop that
16:49:46 <nakilon> `mkx bin/rasel//echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:49:47 <HackEso> bin/rasel
16:49:51 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:49:52 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:50:14 <nakilon> I'm doing smth wrong
16:51:58 <moony> `cat bin/rasel
16:51:59 <HackEso> cat: 'bin/rasel ': No such file or directory
16:52:06 <moony> spaceeee
16:52:13 <moony> `cat bin/rasel
16:52:13 <HackEso> echo "$@" | ​/hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:52:19 <moony> `rasel
16:52:20 <HackEso> rasel? No such file or directory
16:52:29 <moony> `ls
16:52:30 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ rasel_files \ rasel.jar \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
16:52:51 <b_jonas> `pwd
16:52:51 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/tmp
16:54:26 <moony> `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo “$@“ | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:54:28 <nakilon> ``rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:54:29 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/rasel
16:54:29 <HackEso> ​`rasel? No such file or directory
16:54:35 <moony> `rasel
16:54:36 <HackEso> No output.
16:54:50 <moony> there
16:55:26 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:55:27 <HackEso> No output.
16:56:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: try without apostrophes
16:56:39 <nakilon> oh moony's autocomplete
16:57:01 <nakilon> `mkx /hackenv/bin/rasel//echo "$@" | /hackenv/tmp/rasel
16:57:03 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/rasel
16:57:10 <nakilon> `rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:57:11 <HackEso> No output.
16:57:21 <int-e> `` rasel 'A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj'
16:57:23 <HackEso> Hello, World!
16:57:37 <int-e> `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj
16:57:38 <HackEso> Hello, World!
16:57:39 <nakilon> oh finally
16:57:57 <nakilon> thanks guys
16:58:00 <b_jonas> and you might want to install to a permanent directory in /hackenv/lib or something, not /hackenv/tmp
16:58:33 <nakilon> is there a hackenv/lib?
16:59:03 <nakilon> `ls hackenv/lib
16:59:04 <HackEso> ls: cannot access 'hackenv/lib': No such file or directory
16:59:07 <nakilon> `ls /hackenv/lib
16:59:08 <HackEso> c++decl \ cdecl \ frink \ frink.jar \ interp \ karma \ kps \ morse-decode \ p7zip-16.02
16:59:48 <b_jonas> and a share too. but no libexec yet.
17:00:07 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83145&oldid=83144 * Zero player rodent * (+50)
17:00:46 <b_jonas> there's also an ibin, which is a relic of EgoBot's legacy
17:01:11 <b_jonas> and an interps
17:01:23 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83146&oldid=83145 * Zero player rodent * (+41)
17:01:29 <b_jonas> I think interps is the lib directory for where ibin is the bin directory, or maybe backwards
17:01:45 <b_jonas> yeah, ibin is the bin, interps is the lib
17:01:50 <nakilon> this is beyond my understanding
17:02:41 <b_jonas> nakilon: /hackenv/tmp is not version controlled, and may be purged once every few years. it's useful for temporary stuff that survives between commands, but probably not the best for a permanent installation
17:03:01 <b_jonas> nakilon: /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share are useful for when you want to install something permanently and it's more than just an executable in /hackenv/bin
17:03:33 <b_jonas> /hackenv/lib and /hackenv/share and /hackenv/bin are version-controlled, and you can have something from /hackenv/bin refer to additional files in /hackenv/lib or /hackenv/share
17:04:12 <shachaf> What is this rasel thing, though?
17:04:34 <b_jonas> shachaf: some befunge-like language that nakilon is making https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rasel
17:04:45 <int-e> an anagram of laser
17:05:39 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(sorted("laser")==sorted("rasel"))
17:05:40 <HackEso> True
17:05:49 <nakilon> int-e lol
17:06:26 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint(sorted("release")==sorted("rasel"))
17:06:27 <HackEso> False
17:06:49 <int-e> b_jonas: that's the enterprise edition
17:07:04 <int-e> (raselEE)
17:07:11 <b_jonas> yeah
17:07:57 <nakilon> `mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:07:57 <HackEso> mv: missing destination file operand after '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem' \ Try 'mv --help' for more information.
17:08:18 <nakilon> ``mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:08:19 <HackEso> ​`mv? No such file or directory
17:08:24 <int-e> nakilon: start with "`` "
17:08:25 <nakilon> ffuuuuu
17:08:27 <moony> Add a space
17:08:29 <int-e> you need the space too
17:08:33 <nakilon> `` mv /hackenv/tmp/rasel_files /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem
17:08:35 <HackEso> mv: cannot stat '/hackenv/tmp/rasel_files': No such file or directory
17:08:44 <nakilon> it's gone already lol
17:08:47 <int-e> `cbt `
17:08:48 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
17:09:10 <int-e> `` is just like `cbt , a command we wrote to have more fun
17:09:12 <moony> why is rnooodl in there
17:09:20 <int-e> `ls ../tmp
17:09:21 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ rasel \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
17:09:22 <shachaf> Oh, nice, someone fell into that trap again.
17:09:50 <int-e> trap?
17:09:52 <int-e> `? trap
17:10:19 <shachaf> Where trying to mv a file out of tmp/ just permanently deletes it.
17:10:31 <nakilon> nice
17:10:51 <int-e> oh. right.
17:10:59 <int-e> I did forget about that.
17:11:09 <int-e> `ls /hackenv/lib
17:11:23 <int-e> hackeso?
17:11:34 <int-e> shachaf: does that apply here though? /lib is not in the repo, is it?
17:11:41 <moony> Somebody forgot to feed the mouse again
17:11:46 <int-e> so we just shouldn't trust the error message
17:11:52 <shachaf> It's not?
17:12:05 <shachaf> I thought everything in /hackenv is checked in except for tmp/ (which is in .hgignore).
17:12:23 <int-e> oh I guess it is
17:12:30 <int-e> then, sigh.
17:12:33 <b_jonas> hopefully nakilon has a backup for the interpreter, he didn't just develop it in /hackenv/tmp with no other copies, because that would be so last century
17:12:54 <nakilon> yeah it's just a copy from github
17:13:03 <shachaf> What a great trap.
17:13:14 <nakilon> is hackeso alive?
17:13:27 <b_jonas> `echo gpKsgvhcHI8y
17:13:30 <moony> It is, but the mouse went unfed
17:13:34 <int-e> not since that `ls ../tmp
17:13:38 <moony> someone get the cheese
17:13:50 <int-e> b_jonas: can you add a recognizable but rare string to those so that I can ignore them, please
17:13:52 <shachaf> It was also not responding to my queries a little before that.
17:14:09 <b_jonas> int-e: I guess I should make a command then
17:14:22 <b_jonas> or maybe ping is already there
17:14:41 <b_jonas> I'll check when HackEso reappears
17:15:16 <int-e> fizzie: is there anything about `ls ../tmp that would hang hackeso?
17:16:01 <nakilon> bot really dislikes my language
17:16:09 <nakilon> it deleted it and stopped talking
17:16:27 <jinn> i'm right here what are u on about?
17:16:39 <moony> Give it a minute and it’ll throw an out of cheese error. Nothing wrong with your language:)
17:16:44 <b_jonas> the web interface seems to be alive
17:17:09 <int-e> b_jonas: well, so is the other instance on freenode
17:17:23 <b_jonas> oh
17:17:39 <b_jonas> then it's just one of those cases where the IRC connection half-breaks
17:17:53 <nakilon> half?
17:18:02 <b_jonas> it can half-break in multiple ways
17:18:11 <b_jonas> if it just breaks completely, that's easy, the irc client would just reconnect
17:19:04 <nakilon> it's 10 minutes already, IRC had to drop him long ago
17:19:15 <b_jonas> but I've seen cases where the server pretended that it broke and gave a timeout message, and cases where the connection definitely broke but there was some bug in my bot why it wouldn't restart and I couldn never debug why that was, or it could break in just one of the two duplex directions
17:19:22 <b_jonas> or still be alive but with huge lag
17:19:45 <b_jonas> or appear to be alive but not respond to anything so you have to wait for a long timeout
17:20:04 <fizzie> int-e: Hmm. Nothing obvious, at least.
17:20:06 -!- dyeplexer has quit (*.net *.split).
17:20:06 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split).
17:20:14 <moony> Oh
17:20:27 <int-e> network trouble, fine
17:20:30 <nakilon> those two bot instances should work like a cluster and be able to restart each other
17:20:57 -!- HackEso has joined.
17:21:05 <int-e> `bot
17:21:06 <moony> `ping
17:21:07 <HackEso> bot? No such file or directory
17:21:07 <HackEso> pong
17:21:09 <nakilon> oh, where was it connected to? only he and some guy were splitted away
17:21:52 <fizzie> It connects to whatever irc.libera.chat happens to give it.
17:22:46 <fizzie> I've been keeping an eye on https://netsplit.de/servers/?net=Libera.Chat and the new network's been sprouting up servers like mushrooms in the rain. (Is that also an English idiom, or just a local one?)
17:23:33 <int-e> fizzie: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/spring+up+like+mushrooms ...no rain
17:23:39 <nakilon> mushrooms after rain in Russian
17:24:06 <int-e> like mushrooms from the ground in german
17:24:53 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83147&oldid=83146 * Zero player rodent * (+493)
17:25:09 <fizzie> It's "sieniä sateella" in Finnish, and the adessive case (-lla) there doesn't really obviously translate to a specific English preposition, especially in that context.
17:25:19 <fizzie> But mushrooms and rain are both definitely in it.
17:25:42 -!- dbohdan has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in).
17:25:54 <int-e> well, you *are* close to russia
17:25:57 -!- dyeplexer has joined.
17:26:00 <moony> Hopefully they name their least reliable server Iron
17:26:03 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:26:27 <moony> Sturdy ‘til it’s not
17:26:44 <nakilon> int-e not sure what you mean
17:27:02 <nakilon> I'm 15km away from Lenin's body
17:27:13 <int-e> nakilon: nordic countries
17:27:18 <int-e> nakilon: I was replying to fizzie
17:27:43 <nakilon> oh sry, have a highlight on "Russia" in client settings
17:29:15 -!- dbohdan has quit (Changing host).
17:29:15 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:29:32 -!- dbohdan has quit (Client Quit).
17:29:50 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:31:23 <nakilon> btw not sure how but it looks like my files aren't gone and were successfully moved there
17:32:06 -!- FreeFull has joined.
17:33:57 <int-e> so they aren't under version control after all
17:34:21 -!- dbohdan has quit (Client Quit).
17:34:37 -!- dbohdan has joined.
17:34:41 <b_jonas> ``` sed 's/pong/pong "$@"/' /hackenv/bin/ping
17:34:42 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ echo pong "$@"
17:34:53 <fizzie> Weeeeird.
17:34:56 <int-e> I'm confused.
17:35:04 <fizzie> Is there some sort of a global ignore file somewhere for _gem directories or what?
17:35:06 <b_jonas> `ping jrFZt8j4_LHE # int-e: I'll try to remember to use ping instead of echo, but I'll probably forget
17:35:07 <HackEso> pong
17:35:18 <fizzie> Because that's the only thing that comes to mind that would explain it.
17:35:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: can't there be a local .hgignore file, or maybe hg reading gitignore files or something?
17:36:15 <fizzie> There is a local .hgignore file, but the only thing in it is ^tmp/
17:36:30 <int-e> `ls /hackenv/lib | paste
17:36:30 <HackEso> ls: cannot access '/hackenv/lib | paste': No such file or directory
17:36:32 <int-e> `` ls /hackenv/lib | paste
17:36:34 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.6848
17:36:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but I mean a local one in the rasel package
17:37:35 <int-e> this won't end well
17:37:35 <b_jonas> ``` find /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem -ls # it seems like only the directories exist, nothing under them
17:37:36 <HackEso> ​ 1309820 4 drwxr-xr-x 4 1000 1000 4096 Feb 3 11:42 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem \ 1310481 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/lib \ 1309888 4 drwxr-xr-x 2 1000 1000 4096 May 21 17:08 /hackenv/lib/rasel_gem/bin
17:37:42 <b_jonas> nakilon: ^
17:37:49 <int-e> ah, only files are tracked
17:37:54 <int-e> that makes sense
17:37:57 <b_jonas> oh!
17:38:12 <b_jonas> then we can sneakily store non-version-controlled data in directory structures
17:38:16 <int-e> or am I mixing up hg and git there
17:39:09 <fizzie> Oh, it's only directories.
17:39:25 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that's the case.
17:39:37 <moony> Anyone verified that this network’s IRP interpreter is functional?
17:39:44 <fizzie> And yes, I guess it's also a new way of gaming the system.
17:41:17 <int-e> nakilon: basically, every command is run twice, with a fresh checkout inbetween. so the first mv takes, but the second time around, the /tmp directory is gone and you get an error... and nothing gets committed
17:41:26 <int-e> I'm struggling to remember why.
17:41:33 <shachaf> Why what?
17:41:39 <moony> (I just did, IRP survived the move!)
17:41:49 <int-e> why there are two stages
17:42:03 <nakilon> what does "In another world:" mean in HackEso's response?
17:42:11 <shachaf> I think it runs each command twice because most commands are read-only, so it speculatively tries in read-only mode first.
17:42:19 <b_jonas> int-e: only commands that write anything to version-controlled get ran twice, and it's to be able to run multiple commands that don't write anything to version-controlled in parallel but serialize commands that do write there
17:42:36 <shachaf> I mean, in the mode where it doesn't lock the repository/serialize/whatever for changes, or something.
17:42:40 <int-e> b_jonas: concurrent execution, thanks. that was it
17:42:52 <fizzie> Yeah, it's got shared read locks and exclusive write locks.
17:43:07 <int-e> poor person's RW lock
17:43:08 <b_jonas> int-e: jevalbot does not have such locking, and if you run two commands that try to write state in parallel, then the output of one of them may be lost
17:43:12 <nakilon> nvm
17:43:46 <fizzie> "In another world" means roughly "outside /hackenv", meaning there's no web URL available to access that path.
17:44:08 <fizzie> It might also have some subtlety around /hackenv/tmp, which has a web window but no version history.
17:46:33 <esolangs> [[Eek!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83148&oldid=83147 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
17:46:55 <nakilon> fizzie my mistake was "/hackeso/" instead of "/hackenv/"
17:47:09 <b_jonas> I'm not used to "window" being used that way. it already has other technical meanings which is why we don't do so.
17:47:19 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+3311) Created page with "'''PaRappa''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] that is based on the rhythm game "PaRappa The Rapper". The code is meant to look like the gameplay. It is nearly identica..."
17:48:46 <esolangs> [[User:Zero player rodent]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83150&oldid=83023 * Zero player rodent * (+15)
17:52:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * E97m2813flz1a * New user account
17:54:24 <nakilon> `rasel A"!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Hj
17:54:25 <HackEso> Hello, World!
17:58:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83151&oldid=83140 * E97m2813flz1a * (+129) Introduce myself
17:59:46 <int-e> that nick is not inspiring confidence
18:00:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: Yeah, I just couldn't come up with a better word on the spot. Web browser? No. Web endpoint, web interface? Maybe. Web view? Nah. Web expositor? Uh, well.
18:01:00 <nakilon> is it moony?
18:01:29 <moony> Oh no that’s probably MichaelRaskin
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18:03:10 <int-e> well whoever it is first has to figure out the instructions on the introduction page :P
18:03:30 <nakilon> from the language name and first words of description I imagined something different
18:03:58 <nakilon> smth like distributed computing over IRC clients
18:04:08 <moony> Nah just a silly joke lang
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18:05:26 <int-e> pft
18:07:34 <nakilon> there is this weird thing https://github.com/ruby/drb
18:07:58 <nakilon> you write code like if you are in the runtime of another process on another machine
18:09:37 <nakilon> the only time I saw it used was in bank
18:11:11 <keegan> that's fun
18:11:15 <nakilon> instead of making a server that would accept reports via JSON/POST or even their lovely SOAP, they made it a standard in their team...
18:13:28 <nakilon> more explanation here, but basically it's evaling https://ruby-doc.org/stdlib-2.7.1/libdoc/drb/rdoc/DRb.html
18:17:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would say "web view", but I call it "web interafce" in the wiki article
18:19:39 <fizzie> The reason why I find "web view" jarring probably has to do with the fact that over in Android, there's a thing called a WebView, which is something else.
18:22:34 <esolangs> [[IRP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83152&oldid=67566 * E97m2813flz1a * (+345) Describe the situation after Freenode takeover
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18:51:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RobynTiger * New user account
18:54:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83153&oldid=83151 * RobynTiger * (+161) /* Introductions */
18:58:19 <esolangs> [[User:RobynTiger]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83154 * RobynTiger * (+151) Created page with "First-year Computer Science and Mathematics student :D (I'll add more interesting stuff here later, I guess xD) [https://github.com/robyntiger GitHub]"
19:02:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://libera.chat/chanreg doesn't mention a ## namespace prefix anywhere, so ## doesn't officially have the same meaning as on freenode. presumably there'll still be a lot of ## channels just to have the same name as on freenode, but that doesn't apply to us
19:03:12 <b_jonas> even if you don't register a project or community
19:03:55 <b_jonas> oh wait
19:04:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm wrong: https://libera.chat/policies does mention that prefix
19:04:10 <b_jonas> so it still applies
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19:13:21 <int-e> b_jonas: current practice would allow us to just take #esoteric and we'll keep it unless somebody comes along with a better claim (which is of course a possibility... even an actual "other kind of" esoteric community)
19:14:10 <int-e> But fizzie picked ##esoteric and he was here first :) (#esoteric is currently "mine")
19:14:45 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, we can take #esoteric
19:15:20 <int-e> I honestly don't care either way
19:15:43 <int-e> I'm fond of the "esoteric" in-joke
19:17:12 <b_jonas> oh! as for in-joke, if we figure out the final place, we should submit a patch to Canaima to direct people there
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19:25:17 <b_jonas> oh, and even "https://libera.chat/chanreg" mentions the ## prefix. it just says "two # characters", I was searching for /##/ and /double/
19:26:47 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83155&oldid=83090 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+313) Corrected an error in the resizing of the memory vector, introduced this scaling for other commands, and fixed an erroneous type declaration.
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19:41:08 <imode> what the hell is going on?
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19:45:21 <int-e> imode: what am I missing?
19:45:32 <imode> int-e: the above.
19:46:00 <int-e> ah, #libera is more impressive
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20:11:24 <serpent3416[m|gr> /)))))))))
20:11:27 <serpent3416[m|gr> //) __ __\
20:11:30 <serpent3416[m|gr> C==/_o|^|o_\ /!\ IRC.LIBERA.CHAT IS THE BEST IRC NETWORK /!\
20:11:33 <serpent3416[m|gr> | _\ ) /!\ THE JEWS HAVE TAKEN OVER FREENODE, CHATS HAVE MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT /!\
20:11:36 <serpent3416[m|gr> \ .--- / /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
20:11:39 <serpent3416[m|gr> _/`-. __.'_ /!\ JOIN #LIBERIA TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #LIBERIA /!\
20:11:41 <serpent3416[m|gr> /` \`'-,._./|\
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20:12:35 <Taneb> Was... was that spammer lost
20:12:49 <cd> Very
20:13:00 <cd> just a kiddie with a script
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20:38:21 <nakilon> Liberia?
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20:39:31 <int-e> nakilon: that pun is the only good thing about that spam
20:41:51 <fizzie> Libertalia, that pirate place.
20:42:30 <fizzie> (All I know about it is watching someone else's playthrough of that one game.)
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20:53:29 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83156&oldid=83143 * Batata * (+36)
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20:54:26 <myname> what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks
20:54:48 <myname> is this some sort of fud campaign?
20:54:57 <imode> is the sentiment positive or negative.
20:55:10 <imode> remember, you're up against someone who actively hates everybody here.
20:56:08 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83157&oldid=83156 * Batata * (+78)
20:56:58 <nakilon> so I did another attempt to figure put what it is about the Libera
20:57:26 <arseniiv_> strange to hear nightingales combined with frogs from the street
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20:57:32 <nakilon> and the only thing I see is that the new owner just put ads of his another company on freenode website
20:58:06 <nakilon> but I don't understand how it's a reason for people to switch to another network
20:59:19 <arseniiv> I think it wasn’t obvious what’s planned for freenode’s fate, and it isn’t?
21:01:03 <nakilon> is there anything obvious about fate of anything?
21:01:03 <arseniiv> so they might put just ads or the might do something very drastic, or would be further down the road but not right now, and who would know
21:01:16 <arseniiv> I mean, not the fate in abstract, but the plain in their head
21:01:17 <nakilon> and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? if people "didn't see 'it' coming" then it wasn't obvious in the first place
21:01:19 <arseniiv> plan*
21:01:36 <myname> nakilon: they didn't switch to another network if you define the network by the people and principles behind it rather than the name
21:02:03 <imode> nakilon: there was a hostile take-over of freenode by a dude calling himself the crown prince of korea, with plans to turn IRC into discord and monetize it.
21:02:08 <imode> what more info you need fam.
21:02:19 <nakilon> and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans?
21:02:30 <arseniiv> <nakilon> and how was the "freenode's fate" more obvious earlier than now? => I’d think, well, before this entire thing started nobody knew it would
21:02:34 <myname> if there is, there already was in the "old" freenode
21:02:46 <imode> because libera wouldn't exist if the staff agreed with andrew's vision?
21:02:51 <imode> the fuck is your argument.
21:03:04 <arseniiv> <nakilon> and how do we know there is no "very drastic" in Libera plans? => I personally don’t!
21:03:25 <nakilon> imode I don't see about Korea and Discord in Wikipedia's article about Freenode
21:03:34 <imode> nakilon: you haven't been following the posts, then.
21:03:42 <arseniiv> I’m going with my limited instincts for a while
21:03:55 <imode> which is fair, this is a messy situation.
21:04:00 <nakilon> arseniiv same today "nobody knows it would" here
21:04:14 <arseniiv> if they’ll be wrong, well, so be it, I’m bad with politics and with being informed unfortunately
21:04:33 <arseniiv> (they I mean my instincts)
21:04:39 <nakilon> I only see people being scared by their own fantasies about "what can happen"
21:04:47 <myname> people aren't on freenode because it's named freenode but rather because of the people behind it. if the people behind it start getting legal threats and collectively decide to make something new, it's probably for a reason
21:04:51 <arseniiv> (figurative instincts of course, as humans don’t have biological ones)
21:05:10 <imode> nakilon: uh, same could be said of you, on this network.
21:05:32 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lee_(entrepreneur)
21:05:39 <imode> fyi, in case you can't click hyperlinks on freenode's page.
21:05:45 <myname> i don't care "what can happen" in freenode, i don't want to be on a network that is overtaken against the will of the community
21:05:52 <myname> even if everything would stay the same
21:08:06 <nakilon> how is someone's "prince of Korea" status makes Freenode worse place?
21:08:35 <nakilon> is there something bad about Korea?
21:09:04 <nakilon> how does that makes the #esoteric channel on Freenode less functional or something?
21:09:52 <imode> I'm going to be nice and assume you're not trolling, it's not that. it's that someone came in, against the wishes of the community at large, threatened legal action against the existing staff unless they handed over the keys to freenode at large, threatened to drown them in lawyers and legal fees until they backed off property that wasn't his...
21:10:14 <myname> nakilon: there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently
21:10:16 <imode> tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects.
21:10:20 <imode> to stay on the network.
21:10:44 <imode> and is now trying to monetize the thing because he bought a "community" of active individuals that he can now break apart while he turns freenode into a glorified investment vehicle.
21:10:48 <imode> among other problems.
21:10:56 <arseniiv> <imode> tried to bribe or extort existing staff of FOSS projects. => wow :(
21:11:14 <imode> there's a reason why sponsors are pulling hardware, why FOSS projects are moving off the network, and why this is overall spreading.
21:11:40 <myname> i would be kinda interested in how many active channels will stay on freenode
21:11:51 <myname> i'd assume those are next to none
21:12:28 <imode> so if you're _genuinely uninformed_ and not just trolling, there's the answer in a nutshell. there are in-depth threads about it on HN, there are plenty of people that'll answer you in #libera or #libera-dev around the specifics.
21:13:08 <arseniiv> I’d assume nakilon is not trolling :)
21:13:28 <imode> it's really just confusing as hell.
21:13:51 <arseniiv> we live in invisible^W confusing times
21:14:18 <myname> i don't think the relevant part is that confusing
21:14:36 <myname> violent overtake of network. old staff made new network. people like old staff. people move.
21:15:06 <nakilon> I don't know old staff
21:15:31 <nakilon> why would I even know them
21:15:52 <imode> why are you here?
21:16:11 <nakilon> this is #esoteric
21:16:21 <myname> sure, but even if you don't know them, doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?
21:16:27 <nakilon> not #channel_of_freenode_staff
21:16:35 <imode> great. but why on this network. if you don't agree with the network, if you don't see a purpose behind it, stay on freenode.
21:17:17 <nakilon> are you gatekeeping me or what?
21:17:31 <myname> i don't get your point
21:17:32 <imode> good toll.
21:17:36 <imode> troll, rather.
21:17:45 <myname> yeah
21:17:51 <nakilon> you are calling me troll already like 6 times
21:17:53 <arseniiv> I’d presuppose the staff should have being doing things more or less right as there weren’t freenode breakups before this event
21:17:55 <imode> have fun on the ignore list.
21:17:59 <nakilon> you are aggressive
21:18:09 <nakilon> you aredefinitely not the people I'm here for
21:18:25 <nakilon> lol, inadequate
21:18:25 <river> nakilon this is IRC!
21:19:06 <myname> i still have no idea what your point even is
21:19:29 <imode> just ignore them, they're here to siphon attention, not actually discuss anything.
21:19:41 <arseniiv> let’s not be harsh to each other if it’s possible, I left a forum recently because it was a hard place and it still bubbles up in my memory each day
21:20:06 <nakilon> this is some people have too much time wasted of debating and lurking about staff's personal life and finances, enough much to become spontaneously angry on other users in chat who are just asking questions
21:20:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:Batata]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83158 * Batata * (+1) Created page with "e"
21:20:24 <myname> that has nothing to do with the staff as persons
21:20:29 <imode> arseniiv: I doubt the user in question is actually a part of this community.
21:20:35 <imode> and is just here to stir up shit.
21:20:40 <myname> this has everything to do with a violent takeover. nothing more, nothing less
21:20:49 <river> VIOLENCE!!!!
21:20:50 <myname> i don't support violent takeovers
21:20:57 <river> disrespect your SURROUNDINGS!
21:21:31 <imode> ADTR eh
21:21:41 <nakilon> lol this is retarded
21:21:50 <myname> how so?
21:22:13 <nakilon> dude keeps shitting on me for no reason
21:22:18 <nakilon> such a kid
21:22:24 <arseniiv> I’d prefer to think sometimes we are really confused about this or that or some details but this doesn’t necessarily come through text true; miscommunication happens and it happens often enough. Yep no one should be infinitely trusting, as genuine trolling is a thing, but
21:22:41 <arseniiv> but whatever, who I am to mediate anything
21:22:43 <myname> no, because you keep talking bullshit and don't act on the given points
21:22:49 <nakilon> "I doubt he's a part of the community" -- ahahah
21:22:57 <nakilon> I'm definitely not the part of his community
21:23:01 <nakilon> if it's about beibng such retard
21:23:08 <imode> considering the number of "why does this network exist you all are retards" people that have flooded libera, yeah, I'm going to assume malicious intent.
21:24:16 <nakilon> ragekid
21:25:14 <myname> as i said, you still don't respond to any argument
21:25:28 <myname> i cannot assume you are serious
21:26:52 <nakilon> I see no arguments
21:27:37 <nakilon> neither answers on my questions about how the legal problems between owners have any effect on the channels
21:28:34 <arseniiv> I’d think people generally want to feel safe and they have a bit of a precedent the old freenode staff didn’t abuse their power?
21:28:55 <arseniiv> and then they are forced away, so, well…
21:29:50 <arseniiv> why isn’t it an argument, at least one in a cumulative heap of arguments if it’s not enough by its own
21:30:13 <myname> this network exists because of a takeover of the old network. period.
21:30:51 <imode> why are you still entertaining this lmao.
21:30:54 <imode> just /ignore and move on.
21:30:59 <imode> eh, not my business.
21:31:59 <nakilon> "there is something bad about people overtaking stuff violently" -- this is just funny, considering how the world either ignored or even supported the neonazi revolution in my country that lead to 9000 civilian deaths and thousands of deaths among people who were forced to do the genocide
21:32:35 <arseniiv> though I’d say maybe discussing this kind of arguments isn’t really on topic in this channel. It’s either not that esoteric and maybe it would be more productive to discuss these matters with other people
21:32:59 <myname> and you know what? the majority of humans didn't support the nazis, that'. why they lost
21:33:52 <myname> sure, i will do something more productive, like sleeping
21:36:55 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83159&oldid=83157 * Batata * (+88)
21:37:13 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83160&oldid=83159 * Batata * (+1)
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22:10:56 <fizzie> Meta-discussion about where #esoteric should be is probably on-topic, and the larger questions insofar as they relate to that, but anything beyond that probably not so much.
22:11:34 <fizzie> Personally I'm on this side because while I don't know the people who left particularly well (I think we have just the one former freenode staff member as a channel regular?), I've got a generally positive opinion of them collectively, and feel like as the people who've actually kept things running, they have a better claim to this being the "same network" we've been on so far; and
22:11:40 <fizzie> superficially-independent third-party accounts have on average agreed that the new management has behaved at least a little sucky.
22:11:53 <fizzie> I don't expect the disagreement will necessarily have an impact on how we *could* use either network (unless longer-term one or the other just withers away, meaning less chance of random passers-by), but that just means from that perspective the choice of a network is arbitrary, so there's no particular reason to stay either. And I sorta-like this notion of having a registration scheme for communities,
22:11:59 <fizzie> not just projects.
22:12:44 <fizzie> Now, getting back on track, I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge between the esolangs/esowiki bots. If I turn it on, they'd each copy over every PRIVMSG (except their own, of course), prefix it with "<nick> " and send it on the other side. No splitting of long messages, no filtering, no other message types, no bells, no whistles. Is that a good idea or not? What would catch on fire
22:12:50 <fizzie> first?
22:16:28 <int-e> the first thing would probably be the very precise line length arithmetic in hackeso :P
22:17:50 <b_jonas> "<myname> what i don't get is why people are spamming about libera in completely unrelated networks" => it did work, because #libera is full of spam where people are complaining about spam on other networks
22:18:05 <Taneb> I'm worried it means that if there starts being spam it'll get propagated and the bot might get klines
22:18:22 <int-e> anyway, the channel is publicly logged anyway, so I don't think a bridge causes any harm unless there's excessive noise.
22:18:32 <imode> one wonders if it's a smear campaign. pretty easy to spam about a network, and then drive people to complain about the spam of the network.
22:18:47 <imode> where nobody on that network is actually saying anything outside of libera.
22:19:07 <int-e> imode: the bots are treated as a smear campaign by the libera staff for sure
22:20:44 <int-e> officially at least, I'm sure if any tangible evidence to the contrary turns up nobody will be terribly surprised, just disappointed
22:21:30 <int-e> And... if it's a smear campaign, well, such lingering doubts mean it's working.
22:22:56 <b_jonas> "<myname> […] doesn't the pure fact that they created a new network because of legal threats suffice to not support whatever the new freenode is?" => perhaps it would if they hadn't posted messages encouraging people to unregister from freenode's nickserv
22:23:47 <int-e> wow, so much faith in the law
22:24:00 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess the spam forwarding is a potential issue.
22:24:26 <fizzie> Shouldn't there be like a Section 230 immunity for network bridges? ;)
22:24:44 <fizzie> But I guess An Algorithm probably wouldn't care about that.
22:25:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think we have two former freenode staff members as regulars: FireFly and mniip
22:25:55 <int-e> I know too little about The Algorithms used by Freenode/Libera. I thought it was mostly Sigyn/ozone listening in on select channels
22:26:03 <int-e> plus the obvious rate limiting
22:27:08 <fizzie> I don't know any details either, but I imagine they have some pattern-matching somewhere for dealing with those private-message spam campaigns. Unless people just don't have the attention span and that's why they always fizzle out.
22:27:36 <int-e> "litharge" will break my fingers (that's the eir equivalent)
22:27:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: the bridge is probably a good idea but only if you add an easy way to opt out of it so that other bridges can break loops. I suggest making an auxiliary channel and anyone who is joined the bridge won't copy their messages. or something. and figure out what to do with fungot so it doesn't answer twice.
22:28:08 <b_jonas> Taneb has a good point about propagated spam
22:28:09 <int-e> other bridges?!
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22:28:38 <fizzie> If there's just one instance of fungot, it shouldn't answer twice, I guess.
22:28:59 <b_jonas> might be better to ask libera staff and freenode staff
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22:29:12 <int-e> I hear you like tree-shaped networks so we added our own tree-shaped network inside IRC's tree-shaped networks
22:29:15 <ProofTechnique> Oh, I'm so glad ##esoteric is here
22:29:41 <imode> welcome, ProofTechnique.
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22:30:00 <int-e> I don't think having more than one bridge is reasonable.
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22:30:42 <fizzie> int-e: But think about having the chance to make an adaptive spanning tree protocol thing!
22:31:01 <int-e> fizzie: I'm thinking about my own cognitive capacity
22:31:09 <int-e> and how much I'm willing to exert it for IRC
22:31:54 <b_jonas> int-e: there's a channel with a bridge from at least three different chat things, plus a matrix bridge separate from each other. unless you want to make and maintain your bridge to support every newly popping up fashionable thing that you want to bridge, you should allow for more than one bridge.
22:32:14 <int-e> I guess I can always ignore the bridge but that will result in its very own surreal confusion as discussions grow holes.
22:32:40 <b_jonas> also multiple bridges can offer redundancy for when the server of one bridge is down, though they need their own protocol for that so they rarely copy the same message
22:32:55 <ProofTechnique> brb, building a bouncer that posts each message over a different bridge
22:32:56 <int-e> b_jonas: if that's seriously where we're headed then I don't want any bridge at all.
22:32:59 <b_jonas> plus multiple bridges is the #esoteric thing to do
22:33:04 <nakilon> "I've kludged together the world's least advanced bridge" -- you know what picture is an illustration on Wikipedia's article "kludge"? the bridge! )
22:34:05 <ProofTechnique> The #esoteric thing would be a Gopher bridge
22:34:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: will it be called HackEcho? because I thought of that but it's a stupid name and I think it shouldn't be called that
22:34:06 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83161&oldid=83160 * Batata * (+37)
22:34:43 <fizzie> b_jonas: As it stands it'd just use the same connections as the wiki recent changes feeds.
22:34:53 <fizzie> I don't know if esolangs/esowiki is a great name either, but still.
22:35:11 <nakilon> 01:35:05 -NickServ- pipe is not registered.
22:52:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: also don't listen to me, a bridge is probalby a terrible idea
22:58:03 <fizzie> Hey, Wikimedia folks seem to think it makes sense: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Migrating_to_Libera_Chat#Bridging_channels
22:59:35 <b_jonas> some of them at least
23:03:39 <b_jonas> this will probably be decided per-channel, because on channels with few active mods it will copy the spam
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23:39:31 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder how many languages have an `else` branch for a loop statement, executed if the loop body never runs.
23:39:47 <fizzie> I think the Jinja template system has one of those, but it's not exactly a language.
23:40:33 <fizzie> Would allow you to do things like `for (auto item : some_list) add(item); else oh_no_its_empty();`
23:41:24 <fizzie> I guess it's not *that* far from `if (some_list.empty()) oh_no_its_empty(); else for (auto item : some_list) add(item);` though.
23:41:25 <int-e> I'm associating that with Python, somehow.
23:42:10 <int-e> except that it does something completely different, so never mind
23:43:30 <int-e> [Python] "The else block just after for/while is executed only when the loop is NOT terminated by a break statement."
23:44:20 <fizzie> Heh, I wouldn't have expected *that*.
23:44:42 <fizzie> How's that an "else"? Well, I guess it doesn't need to make sense to me.
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23:44:57 <int-e> fizzie: it's an else for the loop condition check
23:44:59 <int-e> it's weird.
23:46:15 <int-e> if you break a loop, the condition will never have been false
23:47:26 <fizzie> R..ight, I guess.
23:47:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: the intuition is that if you write a search loop with a for-each head to iterate over something and the body breaks early when it finds the first suitable item, the else block is ran if the item is not found
23:47:54 <b_jonas> calling it "else" makes sense in that case
23:48:01 <fizzie> That's true too.
23:48:06 <int-e> "intuition"
23:48:12 <b_jonas> and python has iterator for loops
23:48:29 <int-e> The intuition is that if you do the obvious purely formal construction to translate a loop, that will happen.
23:48:32 <b_jonas> that said, I never use for-else or while-else
23:48:58 <fizzie> [Jinja] "If no iteration took place because the sequence was empty or the filtering removed all the items from the sequence, you can render a default block by using else: <...> Note that, in Python, else blocks are executed whenever the corresponding loop did not break. Since Jinja loops cannot break anyway, a slightly different behavior of the else keyword was chosen."
23:49:34 <fizzie> Maybe a more common scenario for templates.
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23:49:41 <fizzie> (Think "your basket is empty" or whatnot.)
23:52:18 <b_jonas> and I think I associate python for-else with the kind of low status stackoverflow copy-paste code monkey who comes to IRC to ask questions for how to do some task with iterator transformers or "in one line" but can't write a trivial while loop to do the same task
23:52:40 <b_jonas> I know it's a stereotype
23:52:49 <b_jonas> but it's a stereotype I have strong
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2021-05-22
00:06:31 -!- FreeFull has quit.
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00:28:22 <fizzie> I guess the people who join and then get K-Lined immediately are spam attempts?
00:34:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: possibly
00:35:23 <b_jonas> that's I think the most common reason for k-lines
00:52:23 <fizzie> I fiddled together a command-controlled nick-based ignore list for the bridge (so that if someone spams on one side, anyone around -- even on the other side -- can make it stop) but I guess the concern is, if you get k-lined very quickly, maybe just forwarding a single spam message over will be enough.
00:57:52 <river> I create an IRC bot
01:00:15 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83162&oldid=83161 * Batata * (+48)
01:00:59 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83163&oldid=83162 * Batata * (+2)
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01:10:52 <nakilon> you could skip the messages that are sent within 5 seconds after channel join AND within 5 seconds before quit
01:23:05 <fizzie> Mm, that'd involve work. Maybe we can just give it a go and see what happens.
01:25:58 <fizzie> Move fast and break things, or how did it go. I'm sure something will go wrong in an amusing way rather than in a painful way.
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01:27:38 <fizzie> I think there's about 25% likelihood it will do anything meaningful.
01:28:07 <fizzie> On the other hand, if it does work, it'll be the first time fungot says anything over on this side.
01:28:40 <esolangs> <fizzie> Oh, except it won't, because fungot ignores esowiki for obvious reasons. Heh, didn't think of that.
01:28:40 <esolangs> <fungot> fizzie: i think that honourable members are representatives of the european union, i.e. the problem is not that people are still listening. in those circumstances, as often as is necessary.
01:28:56 <fizzie> Well, it worked indirectly, I guess.
01:30:17 <fizzie> If anyone wants to turn that off for any reason at all, just say "brctl: ignore freenode/*" and "brctl: ignore libera/*", that should stop it from doing anything.
01:31:02 <imode> neeeeat.
01:31:44 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a corner case beyond that of the spam thing that we didn't think of that'll ruin everything.
01:31:53 <fizzie> I should probably check that the logging is still working, at least.
01:33:08 <shachaf> How do I opt out of being bridged?
01:33:16 <fizzie> brctl: ignore shachaf
01:33:16 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
01:33:23 <fizzie> brctl: ignore freenode/shachaf
01:33:23 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
01:33:26 <fizzie> brctl: ignored
01:33:26 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/shachaf
01:33:38 <shachaf> Sounds good, thanks.
01:35:21 <int-e> fungot?
01:35:30 <imode> fungooooot.
01:35:31 <esolangs> <fizzie> Yeah, I guess those brctl commands didn't show up on this side. Thinking about these things is hard.
01:35:41 <int-e> oh it will be ignoring esowiki over there
01:35:58 <esolangs> <fizzie> Yeah, you have to invoke it over here, then the replies will be piped over.
01:36:14 <esolangs> <int-e> fungot
01:36:14 <esolangs> <fungot> int-e: mr president, i would also like to say something which the european union, the forests are often the very ones which do actually protect the interests of safety to subject aircraft control and monitoring of that strategy. i am sure that you are right to say that the commission is unwilling to apply this decision retroactively and share the satisfaction of everyone's needs. regarding the recent agreement made over the nex
01:36:49 <imode> so what's the plan for the bridge, are y'all moving to libera or are you maintaining a presence.
01:37:35 <int-e> the resulting logs will not be confusing at all
01:37:41 <esolangs> <nakilon> у / ý / ÿ / ŷ / ƴ / ȳ / ɏ / ỳ / ỹ / ỿ / ẏ / ẙ / ỵ / ỷ
01:37:43 <nakilon> у / ý / ÿ / ŷ / ƴ / ȳ / ɏ / ỳ / ỹ / ỿ / ẏ / ẙ / ỵ / ỷ
01:38:10 <fizzie> As for plans, I don't really know yet for sure. I guess we're kind of exploring the configuration space.
01:39:01 <imode> fair.
01:39:03 <fizzie> There's a little bit of talk at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future if you missed that link.
01:39:31 <imode> I had it in my history but haven't checked it.
01:39:40 <fizzie> Not many comments.
01:44:16 <fizzie> I think personally I'd be up for migrating here as the sort of main location, but I don't know how maybe-less-active-right-now-but-still-well-established channel regulars feel.
01:45:56 <nakilon> btw, velik is logging too
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01:47:02 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the something something esoteric programming | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out.
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01:53:14 <fizzie> int-e: Re logs, yeah, especially if opting out becomes commonplace. Well, we can give up on the bridge if it gets too much, just couldn't resist.
01:53:59 <fizzie> (Also, the ignore list is just in-memory at this point.)
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02:02:32 <pikhq> a bridge, you say
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02:03:40 <esolangs> <user3456> yes, a bridge
02:04:08 <fizzie> Over troubled water, no doubt.
02:04:46 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out.
02:05:30 -!- int-e has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | this channel is logged | and bridged, see "brctl: help" to opt out.
02:07:46 <fizzie> Hmm, if I turn off windows_auto_renumber, I think I could maybe convince irssi to give the "parallel universe" channels window numbers that are, say, offset by 100 from the ones I'm used to, and that way remember what the numbers mean.
02:08:38 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83164 * AndrewBayly * (+58) Created page with "Hi, I'm Andrew. Here are the esolangs that I have created:"
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02:12:44 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83165&oldid=83164 * AndrewBayly * (+447)
02:13:21 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83166&oldid=83165 * AndrewBayly * (+0)
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02:26:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can also put multiple channels into the same window if you wish, though you may have to change the formatting to distinguish them then
02:27:30 <b_jonas> oh hey, you enabled a bridge to freenode?
02:27:34 <esolangs> <b_jonas> does it work both directions?
02:27:41 <b_jonas> yes it does, jonas
02:29:13 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> I'm sure there's a corner case beyond that of the spam thing that we didn't think of that'll ruin everything." => bot loops probably
02:29:39 <fizzie> Yeah; I don't know if it's a good idea, but it's there for now. At least a cross-network botloop would be somewhat novel.
02:30:43 <fizzie> There's a few "brctl:"-prefixed commands that anyone can use to manage which nicknames are ignored, and as a special case * will match all nicks if you need to turn it off completely and I'm not around.
02:30:50 <fizzie> brctl: help
02:30:50 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
02:31:30 <b_jonas> Taneb: as for OFTC and the +s flag, I believe that's as much of a policy as freenode's ## prefix in channel names
02:31:55 <b_jonas> `? log
02:31:57 <HackEso> ​#esoteric channel logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ https://github.com/KrzysztofSzewczyk/esologs/
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02:33:41 <b_jonas> ``` echo "let's see what the bridge does with long lines. they should just be truncated."; seq 999
02:33:43 <HackEso> let's see what the bridge does with long lines. they should just be truncated. \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \ 72 \ 73 \ 74 \ 75 \ 76 \ 77 \ 78
02:33:43 <int-e> lambdabot: > 1
02:34:21 <int-e> lambdabot: @run 1
02:34:22 <lambdabot> 1
02:34:55 <esolangs> <int-e> lambdabot: @run 2
02:34:56 <esolangs> <lambdabot> 2
02:35:05 <esolangs> <int-e> okay, good.
02:51:19 <esolangs> <b_jonas> <CTCP>ACTION waves to the bridge<CTCP>
02:51:34 <b_jonas> I guess clients might differ in how they render that
02:53:05 <int-e> Hmm. <b_jonas> AACTION waves to the bridgeA with inverted As.
02:55:39 <user3456> .
02:56:08 <user3456> int-e: how did you send that without the bridge forwarding it?
02:58:13 <int-e> IRC has two kinds of messages, PRIVMSG (ordinary messages, usually /msg) and NOTICE (secondary messages, /notice) ... both types can have a channel as the target (here, ##esoteric), and the bridge only forwards thr former type. So what I'm doing is /msg ##esoteric <...>
02:58:45 <int-e> Hah, /notice at the end, of course. Muscle memory took over, or something.
02:59:04 <esolangs> <Sgeo> Why is there a github for logs?
02:59:43 <esolangs> <int-e> `? why
02:59:45 <esolangs> <HackEso> why? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:01:13 <esolangs> <int-e> Sgeo: no particular reason; the attitude is, they're there, they're public, so they should be listed in the topic
03:01:36 <user3456> like this?
03:01:50 <int-e> that worked
03:17:44 <fizzie> The thing with notices is, the client-side presentation is all over the place. Especially in irssi, where they get the channel name for no reason.
03:18:01 <fizzie> I did consider forwarding them too, though.
03:18:21 <user3456> In Hexchat, it also shows the channel name
03:18:33 <user3456> like this: [11:01:50] -int-e/##esoteric- that worked
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03:19:42 <alex-resist> https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog
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03:20:16 <fizzie> Well, the first forwarded spam.
03:20:40 <fizzie> Technically all bot replies are supposed to be NOTICEs, and no bot should ever automatically reply to a NOTICE. But nobody actually follows the first half of that. It would entirely prevent botloops, though.
03:21:44 <esolangs> <user3456> At least libera.chat's antispam kicked in
03:22:13 <fizzie> RFC 2812: "The difference between NOTICE and PRIVMSG is that automatic replies MUST NEVER be sent in response to a NOTICE message. -- This is typically used by services, and automatons (clients with either an AI or other interactive program controlling their actions)."
03:23:12 <int-e> well that went out of the window when mIRC came along, didn't it
03:23:21 <int-e> and turned notices into popups
03:23:50 <user3456> test
03:24:31 <shikhin> irssi hilights me on channel wide notices too.
03:24:32 <int-e> (that's probably, and hopefully, no longer the case)
03:25:42 <int-e> shikhin: check the /hilight settings? I'd expect that notices are mentioned somewhere in their explicitely then, but I'm not sure
03:25:47 <int-e> their->there
03:41:25 <shachaf> Can I also have any messages mentioning my name be ignored?
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03:53:17 <d33cee> https://youtu.be/T0NYZDGTA5g the l0de radio hour is live! IRC's FINEST HOUR, the late night call in show where you are the star! Call in live, tonight's episl0de: A Small White Dog
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03:58:44 <user3456> Sorry about the nickname change spam
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06:13:06 <esolangs> [[Assign]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83167 * AndrewBayly * (+2258) Created page with "Assign is an esoteric programming language that is a subset of JavaScript. In Assign there are no assignment, increment or decrement operators. ==Strategy== I found that to w..."
06:14:13 <esolangs> [[Assign]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83168&oldid=83167 * AndrewBayly * (+82)
06:15:10 <esolangs> [[User:AndrewBayly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83169&oldid=83166 * AndrewBayly * (+88)
06:20:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kwes * New user account
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06:21:44 <DCatcher> /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
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06:23:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83170&oldid=83153 * Kwes * (+185)
06:24:29 <esolangs> [[User:Kwes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83171 * Kwes * (+12) Created page with "making stuff"
06:33:05 <esolangs> [[Yogurt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83172&oldid=83141 * Ilaylevy * (-4)
06:36:27 <imode> I mean. no?
06:45:40 <myname> i'm a bit confused where those bots come from. like, is it someone from new freenode to annoy people that switched?
06:48:15 <shachaf> Taneb: Haneb
06:56:02 <sknebel> it's very similar to previous spam waves... feels like just people who enjoy getting people to react to it
07:10:09 <keegan> mm, trolls
07:10:37 <keegan> the conspiracist in me thinks all this drama is manufactured to benefit Discord
07:10:46 <keegan> chaos, Discord, confusion, bureaucracy, aftermath
07:11:01 <keegan> also I'm still in freenode #esoteric and it's "fun" to see my messages mirrored there
07:11:09 <esolangs> <kmc> dongs
07:12:39 <myname> Confusion would be a good name for a discord competitor
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07:17:59 <keegan> yes
07:18:59 <keegan> i mean one of their major competitors is Slack
07:19:09 <keegan> which I assume is a reference to the Church of the SubGenius, an offshoot of Discordianism
07:19:15 <keegan> which came first I'm not sure
07:19:57 <keegan> but this is one of these "holy shit, the people in my cohort of awkward weird nerds grew up and are running the world now" things
07:20:33 <keegan> meanwhile I briefly worked for an also-ran web chat service based on Zephyr (named Zulip, now open source) and got fired for being depressed before my shares vested
07:20:36 <keegan> c'est la vie.
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07:34:40 <vrakfall> /!\ THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
07:34:42 <vrakfall> /!\ JOIN #HAMRADIO TODAY. THIS CHANNEL HAS MOVED TO IRC.LIBERA.CHAT #HAMRADIO /!\
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07:48:28 * Taneb morning!
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08:10:30 <keegan> good morning
08:10:37 <keegan> relay bot not so good with CTCP ACTION
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08:36:01 <Taneb> keegan: how's it going
08:38:00 <esolangs> <nakilon> fizzie also you can blacklist the "/!\" substring
09:04:06 <fizzie> keegan: You can opt out from being bridged if you like, by saying "brctl: ignore keegan" on this side.
09:06:10 <fizzie> I'll filter out /!\ though that's pretty specific to this particular spam wave.
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09:07:37 <fizzie> I faintly remember some #hamradio-themed spam from time before the split, wonder why that one gets picked on so much.
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09:12:08 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hmmmmmmmm * New user account
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09:13:15 <fizzie> Turns out /!\ is a bad word and shouldn't be forwarded. (Just testing.)
09:14:40 <shachaf> /!\
09:14:47 <shachaf> /⚠\
09:19:01 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83173&oldid=83170 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+213) Add my user introduction
09:19:06 <esolangs> [[User:Hmmmmmmmm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83174 * Hmmmmmmmm * (+185) Make my own account page
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09:54:07 <esolangs> <nakilon> I'll suspend my twitch IRC analytics project and probably delete my account since they made another post where they continue falsely accusing their users in "hating women" to censor the fact that they became a platform for prostitution
09:57:08 <esolangs> <nakilon> that was the only network where I currently saw the Tags IRC v3 feature
10:01:25 <nakilon> 18:34:24 <fizzie> If IRC had past message editing capabilities, I'd make that thing collapse consecutive edits the same way the recent changes page does.
10:01:59 <nakilon> https://ircv3.net/ - IRCv3 Features - Grouping related messages to simplify collapsing and display of those messages to users.
10:04:37 -!- esolangs has joined.
10:04:49 <fizzie> Yeah, I saw that mentioned somewhere.
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10:14:05 <nakilon> this editing/collapsing stuff changes things a lot
10:14:37 <nakilon> we are used to that if we open the logs we see the same that we see in chat
10:15:18 <nakilon> now we have to add some post processing to convert logs to "real" chat log
10:16:58 <nakilon> and how are we supposed to split logs by days if there was a message collapse over the 00:00
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11:17:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HaleyHalcyon * New user account
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11:18:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83175&oldid=83173 * HaleyHalcyon * (+233) /* Introductions */
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11:22:05 <fizzie> int-e: So I went ahead and had a pre-discussion with Libera staff, and they're okay with the notion of having an 'esolangs' community at #esolangs, but having #esoteric forward to it for "quite some time", which I think probably means "up until a group of aspiring magicians wants to claim it for their rites". I think I'd be happy with that? People can still keep making the jokes on the rare occasion
11:22:11 <fizzie> someone comes in confused.
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11:25:46 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83176&oldid=79839 * HaleyHalcyon * (+732) Example added: Truth machine
11:25:56 <fizzie> int-e: So I went ahead and had a pre-discussion with Libera staff, and they're okay with the notion of having an 'esolangs' community at #esolangs, but having #esoteric forward to it for "quite some time", which I think probably means "up until a group of aspiring magicians wants to claim it for their rites". I think I'd be happy with that? People can still keep making the jokes on the rare occasion
11:26:02 <fizzie> someone comes in confused.
11:32:18 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83177&oldid=83176 * HaleyHalcyon * (+269) /* Parts */ Disambiguations
11:32:40 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83178&oldid=83177 * HaleyHalcyon * (-2) /* Parts */ Format error
11:46:00 <esolangs> [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83179 * HaleyHalcyon * (+1753) Created page with "== MarioLANG test cases == The code is run on the sandbox at TIO.run. === Multiple elevators on the same X coordinate === ==== Code ==== > :! "===== > ! ==..."
11:56:18 <nakilon> do I understand right that it's practically impossible to add a language to https://tio.run/# ? because the last commit I see in their repo 2 years ago and there are hanging pull requests in both repos
12:01:59 <nakilon> it would be nice if there was some frontend for arbitrary languages execution so I would need only provide a backend
12:02:10 <fizzie> I've heard of TIO, but I don't think I've ever actually used it.
12:02:13 <fizzie> Lovely language list, though: probably the first time I've seen Quadrefunge, Quintefunge, Sexefunge and Septefunge mentioned anywhere.
12:02:38 <esolangs> [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83180&oldid=83179 * HaleyHalcyon * (+873) /* MarioLANG test cases */
12:05:57 <esolangs> [[User:HaleyHalcyon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83181&oldid=83180 * HaleyHalcyon * (+120) /* Wall/floor interchangeability */
12:06:25 <nakilon> looks like they were mirroring every language https://github.com/TryItOnline?q=&type=&language=&sort=
12:06:47 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83182&oldid=83178 * HaleyHalcyon * (+74) /* Instructions to Mario */
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12:33:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83183&oldid=83115 * Fizzie * (+690) /* Freenode and the future */ On community registration.
12:38:15 <sknebel> nakilon: I wonder if with webassembly and such it'd be viable to make something like this that doesnt need server resources (outside hosting the files somewhere), runs all the interpreters in the browser
12:40:33 <fizzie> Kind of reminds me of how the Internet Archive has all those old pieces of old software in a playable state by running the emulation in the browser.
12:52:29 <myname> should be easily possible. there are cross compiled linuxes that run entirelyy in browsers
12:57:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, we can go to #esolangs . it matches the esolangs.org domain name that points to the wiki.
12:57:52 <esolangs> <ksdfj> nakilon: re TIO yeah, the chatroom's starboard https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/44255 explains why
12:58:32 <esolangs> <b_jonas> fungot, what brand of DVD demagnetizer do you recommend?
12:58:33 <esolangs> <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i should like us to be very significant and important, being adopted in due course should that appear necessary. finally, our obligation, as it sometimes does not immediately become obligatory and an essential service. with regard to these circumstances it is believed that this issue is already covered by the definition of the fields of finance for innovation and growth.
12:59:27 <esolangs> <ksdfj> "it would be nice if there was some frontend for arbitrary languages execution so I would need only provide a backend" you mean you'd be willing to host it?
13:00:04 <esolangs> <ksdfj> i assume the frontend is somewhere in the github
13:00:20 <myname> you mean like llvm?
13:01:20 <b_jonas> nakilon: you could just have it run an interpreter, since you have a high chance that you can find an interpreter ran in a language that TIO can already run
13:01:58 <b_jonas> you may need to do some porting, but probably not more porting than you'd need to do to run the same interpreter in browser client side
13:06:39 <esolangs> <ksdfj> i recently learnt of a wasm interpreter for k https://ktye.github.io/, for which i believe the author wrote their own c-dialect to wasm converter https://github.com/ktye/i/blob/master/_/i3/w/readme
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14:03:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * T0mi10 * New user account
14:07:17 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83184&oldid=82736 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+215) Add input, Truth-machine, and cat program
14:10:30 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83185&oldid=83184 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-66) /* Examples */ Remove annoying ZWSPs, and prevent them
14:13:01 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83186&oldid=83185 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) Remove the last ZWSP
14:14:20 <esolangs> [[Clockwise]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83187&oldid=83186 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) /* Commands */ Bangyen's suggestion
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14:22:50 <int-e> fizzie: sounds reasonable to me, and about what I'd expect from policy etc.
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15:04:43 <nakilon> b_jonas I mean I just need a frontend for RASEL; don't want to reinvent this webpage with forms and stuff
15:05:42 <nakilon> the backend can be trivially done serverless in Cloud Run
15:06:46 <nakilon> and even moderated call rate via additional layer with a lightweight webserver that would track how often it's being spinned
15:06:49 -!- arseniiv has joined.
15:10:26 <arseniiv> TIL Excel has lambda for some time now
15:10:32 <arseniiv> and let!
15:10:48 <arseniiv> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/blog/lambda-the-ultimatae-excel-worksheet-function
15:11:06 <esolangs> <arseniiv> oh, so bridge is working?
15:15:59 <fizzie> Yep, though I think I'll be moving this end of it to `#esolangs`.
15:16:08 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I heard about that. I don't think it's a big deal. we always had excel 3 named functions where you just slap the expressions you want to evaluate into cells of a macro worksheet, with possibly local names they assign to, assign a name marked as a macro function to their first cell, and then if you call that function from a formula, it evaluates the cells in order from top to bottom, unless
15:16:14 <b_jonas> you call GOTO or similar functions. there is one serious limitation of course: whe a macro function (which you can call from expressions in cells) is executed, unlike when a macro procedure (which you can't call that way) is executed, most builtins that cause side-effects, such as change the formula of a cell, have their side effects silently suppressed, so it's hard to cause side effects from a macro
15:16:20 <b_jonas> function other than changing the values (not the formulas) of the cells of that macro function (other formulas can then refer to those values)
15:17:32 <b_jonas> the main way that macro worksheets differ from normal worksheets btw is that on normal worksheets, all cells have their value recomputed automatcally every time their formula or a cell they recursively depend on changes (you can turn this off, but that's unusual), while in a macro worksheet, cells are evaluated only when a macro is running and its program counter points to that cell
15:18:11 <nakilon> didn't use Excel since like 2012
15:18:13 <b_jonas> TODO for self: document esowiki (the bot) on the wiki, especially its ignore statement
15:18:34 <b_jonas> nakilon: I said "forever". this existed since the earliest time I've seen Excel.
15:18:57 <nakilon> Google Docs Spreadsheets have Google Apps Script that can do all the calculations and integrate with the rest of Docs and Google services
15:19:38 <arseniiv> interesting, didn’t read anywhere about macro worksheets
15:19:55 <nakilon> not only it allows defining functions, those "macros" can be ran on their own on trigger or schedule, centralised, no edit wars
15:20:29 <nakilon> people literally run the whole businesses in Spreadsheets with GAS since then
15:20:56 <nakilon> schools, some shops, warehouses
15:21:26 <b_jonas> arseniiv: it's not a story the Jedi would tell you
15:21:36 <nakilon> then it got all integrated with Bigdata and other data processing services of Google with bells and whistles
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15:29:32 <fizzie> (Loading configurations without killing the process would be far too bourgeoisie thing to allow.)
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15:41:00 <b_jonas> is it bridged?
15:41:11 <esolangs> <b_jonas> yeah it is. funny.
15:41:21 -!- cd has joined.
15:41:36 <cd> brctl: help
15:41:36 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
15:41:40 <esolangs> <int-e> semibridge
15:41:45 <cd> where is this bridged
15:41:57 <b_jonas> cd: to freenode/#esoteric
15:42:04 <cd> ah
15:42:24 <cd> `ping
15:42:27 <HackEso> pong
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15:43:24 * int-e weeps for #esoteric
15:47:16 <fizzie> `` (quote '#esoteric'; grWp '#esoteric') | wc -l # int-e: at least we'll still have all these references for who knows how long
15:47:17 <HackEso> 56
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15:50:27 <river> how about cloaks
15:50:30 <b_jonas> `env
15:50:30 <HackEso> PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ TERM=linux \ HOME=/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ IRC_NICK=b_jonas \ IRC_IDENT=~x \ IRC_HOST=catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ IRC_MESSAGE=`env \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8
15:50:37 <b_jonas> yes, we're on #esolangs now
15:51:11 <nakilon> is esoteric deprecated?
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15:51:19 <b_jonas> of course, as fizzie said, the move won't officially be official until we edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal
15:52:20 <b_jonas> and we might want to wait until the admins get an official webchat working, rather than using kiwi
15:53:05 * cd stops munching on kiwi and hides the skins
15:53:08 <b_jonas> the name "libera" still sounds stupid to me because it sounds like the diaper brand "Libero"
15:53:10 <cd> hm? kiwi? what kiwi
15:53:43 <fizzie> For the community registration, what I have is a "verbal" ack (plus settings for this channel), I've not gotten a reply yet to the formal email. So we might wait for that as well.
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15:53:59 <wib_jonas> cd: https://kiwiirc.com/nextclient/irc.libera.chat
15:54:12 * cd knows what kiwiirc is
15:54:18 -!- Taneb has joined.
15:54:21 <fizzie> I can't use kiwi, I'm slightly allergic. :/
15:54:23 * cd was making a bad joke
15:54:37 * Taneb is here noow also
15:55:20 <nakilon> kiwi is for guests
15:55:28 <nakilon> you don't have to use it
15:55:31 <fizzie> Should've taught that bridge about CTCP ACTION while I was mucking with it.
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15:56:18 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83188&oldid=83003 * Tomhe * (+13) /* Bit-specific */ Bit-specific changed to Words-value (aligned syntax update).
15:56:57 <nakilon> guys, does /whois show my "Actual hostname" for you?
15:57:18 <fizzie> Not to me.
15:57:50 <nakilon> okay, since I see that field and could not be sure
15:58:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, the irc server tells you your real hostname even while you're cloaked, because you're inside the cloak
15:58:41 <nakilon> this sounds awful
15:59:12 <nakilon> because клоака is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloaca
16:01:25 <b_jonas> it's a physical constraint. if you wanted to see your cloak, you would have to move your eyes outside the cloak, and then people could see your eyes.
16:02:48 <b_jonas> if you still want that, make another connection to the server
16:03:11 <cd> uh can't you just
16:03:14 <cd> ask nickserv
16:03:20 <river> cd ..
16:03:25 <cd> `/msg nickserv info USERNAME HERE`
16:03:26 <HackEso> ​/msg? No such file or directory
16:03:35 <river> fungot
16:03:37 <river> fungot: asd
16:03:39 <cd> river: /home/> _
16:04:13 <b_jonas> cd: you could ask HackEso
16:04:26 <b_jonas> ``` echo "$IRC_HOST"
16:04:27 <HackEso> catv-176-63-12-1.catv.broadband.hu
16:04:33 <cd> true
16:04:34 <fizzie> Oh, right, fungot. Hmm.
16:05:05 <fizzie> I guess I should keep it on the side that has more people planning to use it, which might be this one.
16:05:11 <b_jonas> cd: or /msg perlbot arg &h
16:05:23 <b_jonas> you can ask any sufficiently powerful bot
16:05:29 <cd> "Fungot is missing!", a hit educational game for the SNES.
16:05:36 <Taneb> Can you run multiple Fungotia?
16:06:08 <fizzie> Almost. I'd just need to never run ^save on one of them, or configure different state files.
16:06:20 <fizzie> But I don't know if the world is ready for more than one fungot.
16:06:20 <nakilon> don't let funge start growing
16:06:32 <b_jonas> I don't think we are ready for that
16:07:43 <nakilon> I wonder if there were IRC viruses
16:07:57 <nakilon> that find bots with backdoors to replicate
16:08:08 <b_jonas> nakilon: there were at least malware, not necessarily virus
16:08:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: not targeting bots, but very buggy IRC clients
16:08:33 <b_jonas> perhaps also targeting bots, I'm not sure
16:08:53 <fizzie> Eggdrop was so popular, I'm sure there must've been a vulnerability in there somewhere.
16:08:54 <b_jonas> I guess you could find some of the bot loops viruses
16:09:15 <cd> i still wonder how fast a bot that's programmed to join any channel mentioned near it would spread across a network
16:09:40 -!- fungot has joined.
16:10:12 <nakilon> perhaps there is a limit of channels you can join
16:10:21 <cd> there is, i forget what it is
16:10:23 <fizzie> `CHANLIMIT=#:250`
16:10:24 <HackEso> CHANLIMIT=#:250`? No such file or directory
16:10:30 <cd> but it's pretty high and you could simply open a new connection
16:10:50 <fizzie> Not sure if it's that specific limit, I just had the connection-open numerics from fungot's debug screen.
16:10:50 <fungot> fizzie: how come there's a 3rd arguement now? http://mumble.net/campbell/ tmp/ restrict.html for what i need
16:11:26 <b_jonas> cd: you could just use alis to find channels
16:11:33 <b_jonas> it's not all channels, because channels can be hidden from that, but still
16:11:37 <cd> yes, but i meant what i asked
16:11:38 <cd> :P
16:11:56 <b_jonas> well let's see
16:11:57 <nakilon> while I was tracking twitch I had an idea to note the raids after the stream (that's a thing when streamer leaves and moves all his viewers to some another stream, keeping the audience within the website and making a social connetion with a selected target in that way)
16:12:29 <nakilon> so it would be possible to slowly build a graph of people who tend to raid each other
16:13:48 <int-e> . o O ( Streamers who raided X also raided Y and Z. )
16:14:09 <nakilon> is alis here too?
16:14:28 <int-e> yes there's an alis
16:15:03 <fizzie> I made a "who's having an affair with who" chart for a... well, let's call it a forum, once, based on people mentioning the names of other members.
16:15:06 <int-e> Less obviously, Sigyn is ozone, eir is litharge.
16:15:29 <fizzie> Someone's name was a pretty common word, they got an edge with everyone in the graph.
16:15:38 <cd> lmao
16:15:39 <fizzie> GraphViz was having problems rendering it, but that's not a surprise.
16:16:10 <b_jonas> let's speed up its bootstrapping. dear bot who joins every channel mentioned, please JOIN
16:16:13 <b_jonas> ##chat,##electronics,##hardware,##math,##politics,##programming,#ansible,#bash,#bitcoin,#c,#C++,#centos,#datahoarder,#debian,#elixir,#emacs,#fedora,#freebsd,#gentoo,#gentoo-chat,#git,#go-nuts,#guix,#hamradio,#haskell,#idleRPG,#ircv3,#irssi,#javascript,#libera,#libera-dev,#libera-offtopic,#libera-overflow,#lineageos,#linux,#lisp,#lobsters,#matrix,#musl,#networking,#nixos,#openbsd,#osdev,#perl,#postgresql,
16:16:19 <b_jonas> #python,#raspberrypi,#reddit-sysadmin,#reprap,#rockylinux,#security,#sway,#thelongue,#ubuntu,#vim,#voidlinux,#weechat,#wikimedia-operations,#wikipedia-en,#windows,#zig,#znc
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16:16:50 <cd> i'd write such a bot but i feel i'd make the admins annoyed with me
16:20:11 <arseniiv> it’s a bit interesting that all ideal triangles are congruent
16:22:01 <arseniiv> noncongruence starts with quadrilaterals in dimension 2, though I suspect non-planar quadrilaterals are again all congruent?..
16:22:26 <b_jonas> cd: you'd have to make it leave channels that are almost empty or else your join quota will fill up quickly
16:26:51 -!- anonymous has joined.
16:27:18 <b_jonas> `python3 -cprint("#,"+",".join(["#%c" % k for k in range(33,126) if k != 44]))
16:27:19 <HackEso> ​#,#!,#",##,#$,#%,#&,#',#(,#),#*,#+,#-,#.,#/,#0,#1,#2,#3,#4,#5,#6,#7,#8,#9,#:,#;,#<,#=,#>,#?,#@,#A,#B,#C,#D,#E,#F,#G,#H,#I,#J,#K,#L,#M,#N,#O,#P,#Q,#R,#S,#T,#U,#V,#W,#X,#Y,#Z,#[,#\,#],#^,#_,#`,#a,#b,#c,#d,#e,#f,#g,#h,#i,#j,#k,#l,#m,#n,#o,#p,#q,#r,#s,#t,#u,#v,#w,#x,#y,#z,#{,#|,#}
16:28:35 <cd> i own #1, it is the best channel
16:28:42 <Taneb> cd: I had a friend who wrote a program that just... repeatedly instantiated a new bot that'd connect and joing a particular channel.
16:28:54 <Taneb> They got to about 20 before a staff member joined and told them to stop
16:28:57 <cd> lol
16:28:58 <Taneb> (this was pre-2017 freenode)
16:29:13 <cd> well yea if you're making that many connections someone's gonna notice aha
16:29:26 <int-e> cd: you need #one as well, and #uno etc.
16:30:31 <cd> That would be channel hoarding
16:30:34 <cd> so nah
16:30:56 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
16:30:57 <int-e> just trying to help *d&r*
16:31:56 <b_jonas> Taneb: freenode has some limit on how many clients can connect from one address, and they even have some [A-Z]line feature that gives excemption from that for heavily NATted addresses like convention centers or universities
16:32:19 -!- river has joined.
16:32:31 <b_jonas> at least one Ircnet server has a rule of at most three connections per host
16:32:40 <b_jonas> though of course this gets more complicated with ipv6
16:34:28 <b_jonas> the usual workaround for spammers is to buy a botnet made of a large number of random people's home computers acquired via vulnerabilities
16:36:07 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
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16:38:01 <cd> yea, i-lines
16:38:17 <cd> @hellomouse.net had one on freenode as we have a bouncer. We need to get that back
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16:39:16 <V> brctl: help
16:39:16 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
16:39:35 <V> brctl: help ignore
16:39:35 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
16:40:07 <V> fizzie: bridged to wherems't?
16:40:13 <V> oho
16:40:19 <esolangs> <V> to here.
16:41:18 -!- anonymous has quit (*.net *.split).
16:41:34 -!- arseniiv has changed nick to arseniiv_.
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16:42:27 -!- arseniiv has changed nick to arseniiv_.
16:42:29 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv.
16:42:43 <V> brctl: ignore
16:42:43 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
16:42:50 <V> brctl: ignored
16:42:50 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/shachaf
16:45:28 <esolangs> <V> what
16:45:38 -!- xkapastel_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:46:09 <esolangs> <fizzie> I'm guessing the libera side has just lost the connection or something.
16:46:55 <esolangs> <b_jonas> does it still bridge?
16:47:33 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:50:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:50:02 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:50:38 -!- esolangs1 has joined.
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16:51:16 <arseniiv> what do you think?
16:52:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
16:55:10 <b_jonas> ooh, esolangs1. let's see if it will loop with the other esolangs
16:55:19 <esolangs> <b_jonas> hey esolangs1, loop
16:55:23 <b_jonas> nope
16:55:41 -!- river has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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16:55:41 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:55:41 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
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16:58:59 <b_jonas> so fungot, you're here now? what brand of DVD demagnetizer would you recommend?
16:59:00 <fungot`> b_jonas: thank you, and perhaps helped by the house, calls for a dual legal basis before the court of justice against this untimely change. no-one, neither the european parliament. you were asked to work to establish the partnership was still pending.
17:00:23 <b_jonas> yeah, I guessed you wouldn't give a straight answer. in that case, fungot, what features should I pay attention to when I buy a DVD demagnetizer?
17:00:23 <fungot`> b_jonas: mr president, commissioner, ladies and gentlemen, i will be coming onto the market products that could compete with those now circulating on the internal market. in some respects even improves on the commission to establish a policy that undermines the quality of legislation and the consequence therefore is, if we go back to two points here. first of all, only one additional country has come on board.
17:02:15 <b_jonas> I see, fungot. you emphasize the difference between ones produced locally and east asian knockoffs
17:02:15 <fungot`> b_jonas: mr president, i will be speaking about these further in our committees, in full or in part.
17:02:21 <b_jonas> very good
17:02:31 <cd> this network had lead to some fun things
17:02:34 <cd> https://thelounge.hellomouse.net/uploads/cd24a5123916a651/image.png
17:04:04 <fizzie> brctl: ignore V
17:04:04 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
17:04:10 <fizzie> That's how it should've responded.
17:04:13 <V> ???????
17:04:21 <V> brctl: ignored
17:04:21 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/shachaf libera/V libera/shachaf
17:04:30 <fizzie> (If you don't *want* it to ignore you, feel free to undo it with unignore.)
17:04:31 <V> brctl: ignore freenode/V
17:04:31 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
17:04:34 <V> excellent
17:04:36 -!- cd has changed nick to bi.
17:04:41 <V> I guess it just fell over
17:05:08 <fizzie> Yeah, a lot of clients ping-timeouted at the same time.
17:05:29 -!- variable has joined.
17:05:36 <fizzie> Also poor old little fungot got a ` growing on it.
17:05:36 <fungot`> fizzie: mr president, a lot fewer trees, some 140 million. that trend is the same as any other beef in europe.
17:05:50 <fizzie> That's a lot of trees.
17:06:08 -!- fungot` has changed nick to fungot.
17:06:15 <arseniiv> dear fungot what do you thing of ideal tesselations and all that?
17:06:15 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president-in-office, if the house adopts these amendments, we will always be relative to our dependence and reliance on nato which still owns the essential military hardware and which enabled us to develop the criteria relating to its independence and its considerable competence in issues that are sensitive for the european political institutions during the past months. these men were put behind bars, although the
17:06:47 <fizzie> A consummate politician, never a clear answer.
17:07:04 <fizzie> Except that one time.
17:07:07 <arseniiv> I can’t even parse it completely
17:07:55 <arseniiv> these men were put behind bars => I see cell borders here. I think fungot is perfectly aware what was asked of them
17:07:56 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, i would also like to thank you, first of all about the allocation. regarding parliament's team itself, we still believe that coordination, cooperation and shared responsibility, whereby all those involved for the last two years, so we cannot blame the commission) is also necessary to be able to get down to finalising at the earliest.
17:08:02 -!- voidio has joined.
17:08:27 <bi> `ls
17:08:28 <HackEso> a.out \ asmbf-1.2.7 \ banana.txt \ bfi \ bin \ compiled_brachylog.pl \ egel-master \ egel-scripts \ egel.zip \ eGtbSgN68aHU \ just \ karma \ le \ olist.new \ output.b \ paste \ pd \ pd.c \ program \ spline \ spout \ test \ test.sh \ this.py \ tmp \ wisdomls.txt
17:08:41 -!- iovoid has quit (*.net *.split).
17:08:44 -!- voidio has changed nick to iovoid.
17:08:46 <arseniiv> well, I’m certainly not the one who allocated the space for fun​got
17:08:50 -!- variable has left.
17:09:55 -!- bi has changed nick to cd.
17:10:10 <arseniiv> fungot: and at last, do you know any religious hymnes and do you recite them in evening?
17:10:10 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, the wto negotiations and with a view to its full extent if it wishes to integrate? also, may i begin by reminding you that i cannot give you the following: could we not express our disappointment? the scope of the programme.
17:10:12 -!- anonymous has changed nick to river.
17:10:36 <arseniiv> okay so they don’t recite
17:11:27 -!- xkapastel_ has quit.
17:12:47 -!- xkapastel has joined.
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17:13:16 <arseniiv> also that ideal polygon tesselation proves we can easily represent any free group on finite generators via hyperbolic motions: for n generators, just take a tesselation into regular ideal (2n)-gons
17:13:54 <arseniiv> no having to include one free group in a two-generator one
17:14:25 <arseniiv> how easy!
17:14:47 <arseniiv> int-e: b_jonas: you might have been interested ↑
17:16:16 <arseniiv> I mean, b_jonas might have already said something like that last time, but then I didn’t understand completely
17:16:19 <cd> fizzie: What's fungot licensed as, when it comes to using/modifying it?
17:16:19 <fungot> cd: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, i only got to see the financial resources for this programme is important because we need them to understand each other well. as regards the international conferences we have been obliged, with the agreement of any substance. i can assure the honourable member will surely agree, this is a form of development. i would like to single out the last initiative of the british authorities were m
17:16:41 <b_jonas> arseniiv: yes, tha'ts what I tried to say at https://esolangs.org/logs/2021-05.html#ldI
17:16:43 -!- \a has joined.
17:17:01 <\a> fizzie, What is the license of fungot?
17:17:01 <fungot> \a: mr president, since the long march, and it is now the essential question, a philosophical choice. europe will continue to press the council of ministers will adopt them.
17:17:09 <cd> i already asked aha
17:17:45 <cd> fungot has great answers to our questions. What is the meaning of life, fungot?
17:17:45 <fungot> cd: madam president, i should say that my group believes that the lack of safe access for relief agencies to people in a country with disastrous social conditions in which those who have been able to reach agreement on the reform of the commission in agenda 2000 will further increase the speed of technological advance, narrow consumer choice, increase the capacity of economies to adapt to the new member states can always introd
17:17:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I glad to see that now; thanks nonetheless
17:17:56 <b_jonas> arseniiv: the illustrations are under https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Infinite-order_tilings
17:18:07 <fizzie> cd: \a: Heh. Yeah, looks like I never actually chose. Let's say MIT for the code, and I'll look at updating the repository to reflect that.
17:18:14 -!- \a has changed nick to fg.
17:18:19 -!- fg has changed nick to \a.
17:18:22 <cd> sounds good
17:18:36 <fizzie> The language models aren't publicly available anywhere, though.
17:18:52 <b_jonas> fungot's code size is so small that the license text might take up a significant part of the shirt
17:18:52 <fungot> b_jonas: madam president, commissioner, you will note is specifically referred to in the question of comitology. this is partly explained by hizbollah’s outrageous tactic of using human stem cells to achieve the objectives in the field of homeopathic medicine.
17:19:50 <fizzie> It's actually just the babble generation subsection (lines 129-173 of fungot.b98) that's on the shirt.
17:19:51 <fungot> fizzie: thank you for the opportunity to read the information. against this background, the commission, in order to solve them effectively. how, moreover, i feel that the message and practice stemming from laeken are contradictory. they are now lying there during the winter, when orders decline, this credit on their working procedures or, as in portugal and poland for instance, paragraph 4, the commission is full of enthusiasm
17:20:19 <\a> The MIT license is quite small
17:21:29 <arseniiv> b_jonas: thanks. I came to the idea by drawing a sketch of {4, ∞}, precisely!
17:22:29 <arseniiv> fizzie: wait where do one finds such a shirt?
17:23:05 <fizzie> arseniiv: I just got one printed at one of those "you upload a .jpg, we email you a shirt" places, I had a free code for one.
17:23:12 <arseniiv> can’t express how I love the conformal disk model
17:23:14 <fizzie> I think I've got the specific .jpg online somewhere, let's see.
17:23:38 <arseniiv> I wonder how it looks on a real shirt though :)
17:23:54 <fizzie> Actually, what I had online is a photo of the real shirt, so you're in luck.
17:23:57 <arseniiv> or do they show shirt mock-ups?
17:23:58 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/fungotshirt.jpg
17:23:58 <fungot> fizzie: firstly, i should like to illustrate this link by referring to oil, as ' integral elements of european policy, is a situation that we have a unanimous report from the relevant committee.
17:24:19 <arseniiv> fizzie: neat!
17:24:26 <fizzie> It's an immediate conversation starter for sure.
17:25:37 <fizzie> Also, I guess in theory if you're wearing it and don't know what to say to something, you could run it in your head to generate a reply.
17:25:38 <b_jonas> yeah, there's a nice visible jump table
17:25:43 <arseniiv> personally I have yet to wear any custom-printed tee, just doesn’t seem that urgent
17:26:20 <arseniiv> <fizzie> Also, I guess in theory if you're wearing it and don't know what to say to something, you could run it in your head to generate a reply. => lool. But you’d need a model loaded somewhere too, though
17:26:29 <arseniiv> and it should be enormous
17:26:37 <fizzie> Yeah, maybe keep one around as a printed book.
17:26:47 <arseniiv> rofl
17:29:12 <b_jonas> or wear one of these crocheted hyperbolic planes as a skirt, they're fast to random access because you can draw a complete binary tree on them
17:29:22 <b_jonas> no need to mess with slowly seeking sectors like on a hard drive
17:30:38 <b_jonas> of course the linear seeking of a flat shirt is suitable for befunge code
17:30:46 <arseniiv> b_jonas: how is a euclidean skirt lesser for this purpose? Eventually you’ll need a microscope but is that that big an issue?
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17:33:51 <arseniiv> hm there is a chance of hyperbolic fungeoid out there. One could use those inclusions of n-generator free groups and extend programs by reimagining them as using a free group with more generators as a grid
17:34:11 <cd> hyperbolic fungoid would be... interesting
17:34:21 <cd> for one how would you reference memory, grid coordinates don't work anymore
17:34:33 <b_jonas> cd: there are coordinates usable for hyperbolic plane
17:34:41 <arseniiv> yep!
17:34:50 <Taneb> How would you write the program
17:35:03 <fizzie> The Funge-98 Lahey-space is pretty funky on its own, even if it may look like a plane when you don't consider the wrapping.
17:36:02 <b_jonas> some people would use a specialized editor, just like they now do for writing Java programs, other people would just use C-x M-c M-butterfly , because it's still represented as a sequence of bytes
17:36:04 <arseniiv> we can even make arbitrary jumps like unfamous logo turtle would: (1) rotate in place a rational multiple of 2π and (2) go a rational amount in your current direction
17:36:29 -!- keegan has joined.
17:36:34 <keegan> meow
17:36:37 <keegan> is this the cool place to be
17:36:42 <arseniiv> we can afford a countable set of jump/rotate instructions just for this insanity
17:36:55 <Taneb> keegan: no, this is a channel full of weird nerds
17:37:02 <cd> lol taneb
17:37:08 <cd> i am not weird
17:37:09 <cd> i am cd
17:37:18 <b_jonas> arseniiv: just use a finite generator
17:37:39 <Taneb> Weird nerds and a circular object that stores data
17:38:08 <keegan> weird nerds are cool
17:38:11 <arseniiv> b_jonas: hm in the end we’ll be able to unify all that inside some finite-generator free group, yeah, though only if the program is finite
17:38:12 <keegan> furthermore, i am a weird nerd
17:38:21 <Taneb> keegan: well then, this must be the cool place to be
17:38:28 <keegan> ergo de facto
17:38:51 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no, I mean a finite generator for finitely many rotate/jump instructions
17:39:00 <river> is it possible that zzo will join this irc channel?
17:39:19 <keegan> meow
17:39:31 <Taneb> river: it's certainly concievable
17:39:41 <Taneb> But who knows what zzo will do
17:39:45 <keegan> zzo will probably make his own irc network based on gopher or something
17:40:08 <fizzie> Well, we'll build a bridge to it when that happens.
17:40:34 <keegan> I learned the other day that Gopher is named for the mascot of the university where it was invented (University of Minnesota), in addition to being maybe a pun on "go for"
17:40:58 <arseniiv> b_jonas: yeah that’s what I read; but that’s equivalent for a program being finite, as it’ll be able to use only finitely many instructions. But I think it’ll be good to allow any rational rotations and translations in general
17:41:15 <b_jonas> arseniiv: no no
17:41:22 -!- imode has joined.
17:41:39 <arseniiv> s/for/to
17:43:06 <b_jonas> you'd allow the program to span a potentially unlimited part of a grid on the hyperbolic plane, just as saner fungeoids do on the euclidean plane. euclidean fungoids only need a few jump builtins too.
17:44:38 <imode> oh hey, neat, you got the forward.
17:45:45 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit).
17:46:01 -!- imode has joined.
17:46:21 <b_jonas> imode: fizzie did that. "just couldn't resist", he said. I knew it was the #esoteric thing to do.
17:46:45 -!- arseniiv_ has joined.
17:47:35 <imode> thumbs-up from me.
17:48:44 <b_jonas> it'll probably only stay for a transitional period, then we'll just stabilize on one network, but still
17:48:47 <b_jonas> it's fun
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17:50:03 <arseniiv> uh those NickServ shenanigans
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17:58:47 <b_jonas> arseniiv: they can help too, sure
17:58:59 <b_jonas> isn't his name "fungot" though?
17:59:00 <fungot> b_jonas: unfortunately, recent employment statistics for the whole of europe, is a most serious precedent that i would like, however, that development is undertaken in other areas. in july last year on behalf of the european parliament wants an interinstitutional agreement, the commission has not done for years.
17:59:20 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> isn't his name "fungot" though? => both first and last?
17:59:20 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, first of all, i would like to say how glad i am not in a very striking way something that is absolutely clear; and we must equally ensure that there is annoyance and disappointment over the commission, by the european union
17:59:42 <arseniiv> though hm of course it will be both first and last if it’s just a single one
17:59:44 -!- lifthrasiir_ has changed nick to lifthrasiir.
18:00:12 <arseniiv> > map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:00:13 <fungot> arseniiv: mr president, of course, but this should be accompanied by an assessment of whether this sum really makes up for deficiencies in the actual texts of regulations relating to the situation prior to harmonisation. amendment no 3
18:00:20 <arseniiv> nooo
18:00:52 -!- xkapastel has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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18:00:52 -!- xkapastel_ has changed nick to xkapastel.
18:00:52 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
18:01:09 -!- jinn has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
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18:01:09 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:01:09 -!- \a has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:01:51 <esolangs> <arseniiv> > map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:01:51 <fungot> esolangs1: mr president, i should like to start by expressing my total support for an exceptional report and for the quality of bathing water quality, taking account of the obstacles which deny children access to a mother or father indeed, to make proposals for upward harmonisation of tobacco taxation. the point of view.
18:01:52 <esolangs> <lambdabot> error:
18:01:52 <esolangs> <lambdabot> • Couldn't match type ‘a b’ with ‘[]’
18:01:52 <esolangs> <lambdabot> Expected type: [[Char]] -> a (b, d) ([Char], d)
18:02:09 <b_jonas> did you guys know there are online card payment providers that don't accept name ("exactly as it's on written on the card") with accented letter, and I have a card with an accented letter in my name embossed?
18:02:20 <fizzie> Whoops, not ignoring the bridge when it's got its altnick on.
18:02:44 -!- iovoid has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:03:59 <fizzie> int-e: Oh, right. When you're not busy, there's an obvious lambdabot deficiency here.
18:04:20 <esolangs> <arseniiv> > let first = head in map ($ ["fung​ot"]) [first, last]
18:04:21 <esolangs> <lambdabot> <hint>:1:34: error:
18:04:21 <esolangs> <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\8203'
18:04:32 <esolangs> <arseniiv> > let first = head in map ($ ["fungot"]) [first, last]
18:04:32 <fungot> esolangs1: mr president, on the fnord. the terrorists dragged him over the last two years.
18:04:34 <esolangs> <lambdabot> ["fungot","fungot"]
18:04:34 <fungot> esolangs1: madam president, i have a number of regional meetings with representatives of the presidency.
18:05:19 -!- esolangs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:05:30 <int-e> fizzie: mmm, obvious?
18:05:43 <esolangs> <b_jonas> [ 'jevalbot is still here, isn't it?'
18:05:44 <esolangs> <j-bot> b_jonas: |open quote
18:05:44 <esolangs> <j-bot> b_jonas: | 'jevalbot is still here, isn't it?'
18:05:44 <esolangs> <j-bot> b_jonas: | ^
18:05:51 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> did you guys know there are online card payment providers that don't accept name ("exactly as it's on written on the card") with accented letter, and I have a card with an accented letter in my name embossed? => didn’t know they allow non-ASCII latin there
18:06:17 <b_jonas> I can't prove it because I obviously won't show a photo of my embossed credit card
18:06:28 <arseniiv> no I believe perfectly
18:06:37 -!- nakilon has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:06:40 -!- esolangs1 has changed nick to esolangs.
18:06:53 <fizzie> int-e: Well, obvious in the sense that someone tried to use it but it wasn't here.
18:07:10 -!- nakilon has joined.
18:07:27 <b_jonas> the bank's homepage shows example credit card images, but they look fake, not real photos of credit cards
18:07:33 <fizzie> Maybe that's not quite the right adjective. Blatant? Something.
18:07:51 <int-e> fizzie: I don't know what to look for.
18:08:15 <arseniiv> over here, they transliterate to ASCII latin and do that quite liberally. I bet й and ий have more than two transliterations there in the wild. There were standards on that but not a single one and almost always they seem to be ignored
18:09:03 <fizzie> int-e: I mean, if I wasn't clear -- it's just not on this channel, it's on the deprecated one.
18:09:23 <int-e> fizzie: ah!
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18:09:38 <fizzie> (Also was that > prefix thing special too? I don't know for sure.)
18:09:48 <int-e> "it" in "use it" referred to the bot as a whole, not to a particular feature that was missing
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18:10:07 <arseniiv> imagine you can end up with ы and й transliterated the same (as y). Though it is the ambiguity that’s worse, as sometimes the card transliteration should for some reason match with transliterations in other places, or something. And you need to somehow control that the bureaucrats match them :D
18:10:49 <keegan> 11:06 < b_jonas> I can't prove it because I obviously won't show a photo of my embossed credit card
18:10:52 <keegan> you could redact the number
18:11:00 <keegan> just make sure to actually cover it with a black box or something
18:11:04 <keegan> rather than blurring or pixelating
18:11:20 <keegan> I don't think most people realize how easily you can recover even heavily blurred or pixelated text if you have a strong prior
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18:11:51 <keegan> and 16 digits with known spacing and font is a very strong prior
18:12:06 <arseniiv> keegan: yep usually it’s a gaussian blur or something alike
18:12:07 <fizzie> Someone had just failed redacting a PDF with the usual thing (opaque black box drawn on top, original data not removed), I thought nobody was really doing that anymore.
18:12:23 <int-e> fizzie: a Zen variation of not seeing the forest for the trees... there were no trees
18:12:24 <fizzie> I don't remember where, some piece of local government maybe.
18:12:28 <river> whats your unique ID?
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18:13:32 <b_jonas> keegan: I refuse
18:13:57 <b_jonas> I do redact some photos, like ones with people's faces, but I won't do that in this case
18:14:33 <fizzie> I know I should consider myself lucky for having an ASCII-only name, but I miss out on all these stories.
18:14:46 <int-e> fizzie: . o O ( When I said "send it electronically" I meant it to be printed and faxed, not sent by email! )
18:15:38 <keegan> i have an ascii name too
18:15:39 <cd> fizzie: Where might one find fungot-compatible models? :P
18:15:39 <fungot> cd: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, in his opinion, regretted that fewer and fewer borders in international crime. according to the rule of law; the european initiative for democracy and human rights.
18:16:25 <keegan> we are having a baby in about 15 weeks and are still deciding about names but we have decided firmly on using the printable ASCII subset (no NULs or BELs)
18:16:28 <keegan> my surname has a non-initial capital, which a lot of systems drop, but it hasn't caused me problems
18:16:34 <fizzie> cd: You might consider training some of your own. There's step-by-step instructions at https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/varikn/readme.txt for the "modern" training method.
18:16:34 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would like to convey my objections at least, to that year and thus during the previous magps, which compensated for any reduction in working hours will help to create or improve counselling and legal advice centres which will be to report on their activities, for it is undoubtedly the case that if there is a wider rural world than farming and tourism development. this means that we have all made every ef
18:17:10 <b_jonas> ooh, I might look at that. thanks, fizzie
18:17:10 <arseniiv> keegan: (no NULs or BELs) => consoling
18:17:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: aren't ASCII-only names the majority in Finland?
18:17:47 <fizzie> I've never uploaded the pre-baked ones anywhere. I guess a lot of them are based on public materials, but maybe there's an ethics question in there somewhere too, cloning an AI vs. growing a new one in a similar environment, I don't know.
18:17:47 <b_jonas> I don't think it's something you need to consider lucky
18:18:09 <fizzie> b_jonas: It might be a majority, but it's not a huge majority, ä and ö are pretty common in names.
18:18:15 <keegan> wifey and I have different surnames so that complicates things too
18:18:22 <fizzie> I mean, it might be a 90% majority or something, but not like orders-of-magnitude majority.
18:19:07 <b_jonas> I imagine it could get funnier if you have a name with rare letters, and a bank official can't type it
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18:19:37 <fizzie> There's a lot of mojibake in snailmail from abroad, at least.
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18:19:45 <fizzie> (Based on friends' experiences.)
18:19:59 <cd> I'll have to find some good materials to bae it on
18:20:01 <cd> *base
18:20:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, it's funny when shops in china can't correctly print non-ascii letters on the address stickers of mail
18:20:56 <fizzie> A friend of mine who moved to Australia has also been having trouble with his last name (two ä's), because different pieces of officialdom insist on spelling it differently, and then complain about mismatches.
18:21:02 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> I imagine it could get funnier if you have a name with rare letters, and a bank official can't type it => Ʌşŧȣλð Mŋödøczeς
18:21:02 <keegan> still amazed by https://celebraterickysargulesh.tumblr.com/post/31917763793/wizardishungry-an-image-of-a-post-envelope-with
18:21:27 <b_jonas> there are some short street names that are almost impossible to guess from the mangled addresses
18:22:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: what is that?
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18:32:40 <b_jonas> they're supposed to be real names in universe, but I think he deliberately avoids real names out of universe to avoid offending someone real
18:33:03 <arseniiv> (still about the Polish one: we should probably ask kspalaiologos about what tsch-letter is correct, I don’t know at all how do they differ. Maybe one of them was for a hard ch and the other for the soft one)
18:33:07 <fizzie> I'm guessing Myyntti Raatalla is mock-Finnish, and that's just so bad when it comes to phoneme durations. "Myntti Raattala" you could have. In fact, I think Raattala is a real surname.
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18:34:03 <arseniiv> b_jonas: I think I might have heard about that polka from a friend, he translated it to some language IIRC
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18:34:31 <b_jonas> part of the in-universe story is about a person who wants to change their surname
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18:35:47 <b_jonas> we have that list analyzed in a few points of #esoteric logs. I think it even got changed to better represent the languages of regulars.
18:36:04 <b_jonas> which is why it doesn't have any spanish or portugese names by the way
18:36:11 <b_jonas> because we don't consider the Canaima guys regulars
18:37:27 <esolangs> [[2020]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83189&oldid=82647 * EnilKoder * (+14) added John Conway to the list of deaths in the comment of unimplemented ideas
18:39:23 <b_jonas> though I guess we should add a russian name to it now
18:40:17 <fizzie> Huh, I always thought those names were a reflection of which languages are available in the thing.
18:40:30 <b_jonas> ``` words --help
18:40:31 <HackEso> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the \
18:40:34 <fizzie> `words -l
18:40:35 <HackEso> valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M
18:40:36 <b_jonas> ``` words -l
18:40:37 <HackEso> valid datasets: --brazilian --bulgarian --canadian-english-insane --catalan --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --esolangs --finnish --french --gaelic --german --german-medical --hebrew --irish --italian --manx --norwegian --ogerman --opcode --pokemon --polish --portuguese --russian --spanish --swedish \ default: --eng-1M
18:40:38 <arseniiv> though I couldn’t give an advice on that, as they are too diverse because of cultural mixing
18:40:49 <arseniiv> b_jonas ↑
18:41:35 <b_jonas> arseniiv: sure, most of the Hungarian names are mixed in too, and the easiest way to make an authentic sounding Hungarian name is to hungarianize the spelling and phonology of a fake foreign name
18:41:42 <arseniiv> like, not that diverse of course, but I think I would be a bad advisor nonetheless
18:41:53 <arseniiv> b_jonas: haha
18:42:04 <b_jonas> are there good fake pokemon name generator models?
18:42:21 <arseniiv> `pokemon
18:42:22 <HackEso> pokemon? No such file or directory
18:42:26 <arseniiv> `pokemons
18:42:27 <HackEso> pokemons? No such file or directory
18:42:54 <arseniiv> I bet HackEso had something for that, though you’d know better if it’s good
18:44:55 <b_jonas> it has the same problem: there are less than a thousand real pokemon names (right now; it will grow), so it's hard to generate fake ones that look real
18:45:40 <arseniiv> `words --pokemon
18:45:42 <HackEso> turtor
18:46:01 <b_jonas> I tried to generate fake town names of Hungary, there the sample is like 2500, the best ones I got are "Rúgonya" and one that I forgot but that turned out to be the Hungarian name of some town outside of Hungary
18:46:05 <b_jonas> arseniiv: ah yes, I'm stupid
18:46:20 <b_jonas> `words --pokemon -o 2 20
18:46:21 <HackEso> nectriken victinaracturtwig skitunky druddiursa cascoloss darumbrelibird lier bunny thundoublast tsareecko banetapod torb snorlax gigalitle leafeon klinklantini wigglyphlos wurmplumismagius macharjabug fomalakie
18:46:34 <arseniiv> the command was right here; I have no eyes and I must seem^W see
18:46:36 <b_jonas> snorlax is real
18:46:52 <b_jonas> banetapod sounds nice
18:47:01 <arseniiv> wurmplumismagius :D
18:47:01 <b_jonas> thundoublast also sounds nice
18:47:09 <b_jonas> gigalitle too
18:47:12 <b_jonas> leafeon... isn't that real?
18:47:22 <b_jonas> yeah, leafeon is real
18:48:14 <arseniiv> klinklantini seems to have an affinity to alcohol
18:48:28 <arseniiv> and glassware
18:48:58 <arseniiv> are there inanimate-ish pokemon?
18:49:16 <b_jonas> yes, geosomething
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18:59:31 <esolangs> <nakilon> `words --russian -o 2 20
18:59:32 <esolangs> <HackEso> ​помозноджан забытказывалешени недвыхъ каральвили делагоспит вижиша выноукрентагза сарканькенностивобесу силастера пятиилосильскологи encessemble наструиравноплюсь кализируютъ повидовлеей кобразведенцию эндзанный мишагосязато срабамбовал
18:59:38 <myname> seems legit
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18:59:59 <b_jonas> `words --russian -o -2 20
19:00:00 <HackEso> ​констваркова дедотают бушиться бегуньски ушисьмедстанов амвтрением диием сокон итропасность софено прибергу правьдана него едают полютретья испрусахь службылинъ кортзанных мускаакопрохо некдуфайтестиленно
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19:00:34 <esolangs> <nakilon> more like fake Bulgarian
19:01:04 <b_jonas> `words --bulgarian 20
19:01:06 <HackEso> ​дървостех сноших кьосветник разубедения гътнализврем борницата дюдюкаработите подоветнадрънча присарските засияване бъбряваш отцеждити ненажима уверно докаялия непокващ добифовавяващ известе одейки замърсващи
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19:03:31 <b_jonas> "бъбряваш" starts with "бъб", as if it deliberately tried to look not russian when you specify --bulgarian
19:04:04 <b_jonas> also "дървостех"
19:04:54 <nakilon> кализируютъ -- that Ъ in the end is some from 19th century rules
19:04:55 <arseniiv_> <b_jonas> arseniiv: both have some of the brain in https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2663#comic => haha that’s perfect
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19:05:02 <b_jonas> of course that's exactly the kind of thing that these models can do well
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19:06:20 <b_jonas> hey, did you notice it has "encessemble" among russian words?
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19:06:54 <nakilon> yep, some garbage in the used dictionary
19:07:07 <b_jonas> let's try shorter ones
19:07:14 <b_jonas> `words --russian -o -4 20
19:07:15 <HackEso> ​олярхад пам коэфф консоверно сильчагосуджей горой бразпагоники забадскаго манскомъ оного еваталис росшуюся вых водизмораснов порщитном девязнь ивкал инируемыхъ оттопа разденьков
19:07:21 <b_jonas> the short ones look more believable
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19:07:33 <nakilon> горой is a valid word
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19:07:41 <arseniiv_> Bulgarian is funny to read even when it’s genuine. Hopefully Bulgarians wouldn’t take offense
19:07:44 <nakilon> also оного
19:07:49 <b_jonas> so is "сокон" from above
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19:07:54 <arseniiv_> коэфф ъ
19:07:57 <arseniiv_> => lol
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19:08:18 <b_jonas> "вых" doesn't look real
19:08:24 <arseniiv> that’s a common abbreviation for коэффициент coefficient
19:08:38 <b_jonas> oh!
19:08:39 <b_jonas> nice
19:09:10 <b_jonas> and "ивкал" looks suspicious with its trailing "л"
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19:09:47 <nakilon> that's normal for past tense verbs
19:09:57 <b_jonas> ah good
19:10:59 <nakilon> again that trailing Ъ
19:11:20 <b_jonas> in "инируемыхъ"? it looks especially silly after an "х"
19:11:53 <b_jonas> or do you mean in "манскомъ"?
19:13:24 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_sign#Final_yer_pre-1918
19:13:28 <b_jonas> "бразпагоники" looks like a good fake word
19:21:13 <b_jonas> `word --pokemon -o -4 20
19:21:14 <HackEso> re
19:21:19 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon -o -4 20
19:21:20 <HackEso> rhypno luxe buizel mine crabra gastly sheliolitwig flygon foon mise smoem swamphan cate per quil celgon gole vestang maka arcant
19:21:40 <b_jonas> ``` words --pokemon 20
19:21:41 <HackEso> carra rhyhorsea venusaur chirita tepin tyran oritarmada exploom grubi digon mushao bulbat dusken lopunne feebast aegiroc lumin skartic popotad staravile
19:21:50 <b_jonas> exploom is nice
19:21:54 <b_jonas> bulbat too
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19:34:46 <nakilon> I like these symbols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script
19:37:43 <nakilon> ⰀⰁⰂⰃⰄⰅⰆⰇⰈⰉⰊⰋⰌⰍⰎⰏ
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19:42:27 <river> i like them too
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19:53:31 <arseniiv> someone said they are cute because of circles in most of them. I’d say they remind Greek-Latin-Cyrillic “continuum” but on the other hand are pretty alien, hence the effect. Tifinagh gives me a similar feeling
19:55:11 <river> Arrival
19:55:31 <arseniiv> but for instance Armenian script looks too alien to me, and less unique. I surely wouldn’t want to be an Armenian dyslectic
19:55:43 <arseniiv> oh, hadn’t watched that one yet
19:57:14 <b_jonas> arseniiv: I'm too used to all major scripts, the internet makes the world small, they don't look alien to me anymore
20:00:52 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83190&oldid=83155 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+710) Added an introductory section and a reference section, and amended a mistake in the documentation of the Common Lisp implementation.
20:01:52 <b_jonas> latin, russian, serbian cyrillic, greek, latin vietnamese, georgian, armenian, hebrew, arabic, persian, chinese kanji, japenese kanji plus kana, hangul, the more common brahmic scripts (devanagari, thai, bengali), latin braille are the ones I see the most often. you can still surprise me with the infinte variety of rarer ones, but not armenian.
20:03:04 <b_jonas> and yes, it's the internet of geeks, so I also see akkadian cuneiform and futhark
20:03:16 <cd> hum, trying to comprehend how hackeso's umlbox works, can't seem to figure out how to get output out of it aha
20:03:27 <b_jonas> (and old hungarian runes, always used in a very non-authentic way)
20:03:36 <cd> everything else worked after some quick fixes to init.c
20:05:02 <b_jonas> cd: I used serial terminal in termbot, but I don't know how HackEso works
20:06:43 <cd> https://pybin.pw/LoXF seems it tries to use some tty device, but i'm not sure where ../tty1 is in that particular context
20:07:28 <arseniiv> b_jonas: in a sense, many to me too, though I don’t read most of them at any rate. Mostly from translations on food packaging and instruction manuals. But Armenian, to continue the example, is alien in its, well, guiding principles or something. It’s strange how do they read fluently letters that are almost exclusively vertical bars. Someone said most cyrillic letters aren’t as legible as latin because there are less ascenders and
20:07:28 <arseniiv> descenders, and often just vertical and horizontal strokes (in lowercase), and the first one seems worse. Though hand-written Armenian looked way more legible IIRC
20:08:36 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83191&oldid=83190 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-52) /* References */ Use wikipedia link
20:09:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: well sure, but in the same sense you could say Chinese kanji is the most readable
20:10:14 <arseniiv> well they are if you memorized them, I guess?
20:10:45 <arseniiv> they are pretty distinct in mass, and also they have some underlying logic, though not a too sane one due to historic process
20:10:53 <b_jonas> as for "exclusively vertical bars", that's how latin script was written in old codexes, so it depends on the font too
20:12:00 <arseniiv> I wouldn’t say A C D G K M N O P Q R S U/V X Y Z would still be exclusively vertical bars
20:12:14 <b_jonas> I mean look at the Gutenberg Bible, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenberg_Bible_B42_Genesis.JPG , which set the traditions for how high quality typeset books are supposed to look like, heavily based on handwritten books
20:12:19 <arseniiv> or do you mean something like fractur?
20:12:37 <b_jonas> arseniiv: you have to take lowercase letters, uppercase is rare comapratively
20:12:38 <arseniiv> that’s evidently not too legible yeah
20:13:18 <b_jonas> it's like you draw a sequence of identical vertical lines with serifs on the top and bottom, and modify them with tiny additions or subtractions to turn them to different letters
20:13:21 <arseniiv> ah, so I definitely wasn’t right to think about as far as some roman inscriptions in all capitals
20:14:00 <b_jonas> the roman inscriptions that you see in lapidariums? those are readable to us because the capitals in the Times style fonts that we are used to are based directly on them so they're very similar,
20:14:07 <arseniiv> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Gutenberg_Bible_B42_Genesis.JPG => yep yep that’s the worst
20:14:12 <b_jonas> except that they use very different abbreviations and fewer spaces
20:14:17 <arseniiv> how did they read poor people
20:14:52 <arseniiv> and those abbreviations too, yeah, I read about their diversity and changes in time several months ago
20:15:09 <amdj> Someone might want to arrange for the esolangs bot to be autovoiced. If someone were to hit it with a lot of URIs, it responding with a flood of URI details without at least voice status will trigger a flood notice to network staff, and one of our bots is currently configured to be twitchy about that (it will murder it).
20:15:53 <b_jonas> arseniiv: which abbreviations did you read about? the ones in roman era engraving, or the ones in hand-written mediæval latin codexes
20:16:22 <arseniiv> b_jonas: mediæval ones :)
20:16:52 <b_jonas> the difference is that the mediæval scribal ones use a lot of unique diacritics; the engraved latin ones are basically pure ascii latin letters with the occasional middle dot separator
20:19:32 <b_jonas> I have photos of a bunch of old steles with text in various scripts engraved in them, from museums
20:19:35 <b_jonas> they can look great
20:19:54 <b_jonas> there are even a few with hieroglyphs carefully engraved as concave rather than convex
20:19:59 <b_jonas> sorry, convex rather than concave
20:20:00 <b_jonas> embossed
20:20:07 <b_jonas> can you imagine doing that to marble?
20:20:36 <b_jonas> of course that only happens in egyptian pyramids and similar
20:20:42 <b_jonas> not for more practical scribal documents
20:20:57 <b_jonas> those are all engraved the normal concave way
20:23:11 <b_jonas> the one that looks the most impressive IRL (though not necessarily in photo) is https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Stele_of_Ashurnasirpal_II_from_Nimrud
20:23:58 <b_jonas> carved from a single block of stone, quite tall, and looms over you, because you can get very close to it, since it's exhibited without any glass or plastic case surrounding it
20:31:32 <b_jonas> ^source
20:31:32 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:33:26 <cd> I am super close to getting umlbox working
20:33:31 <cd> just output being a pain
20:33:33 <cd> :<
20:33:42 <cd> stdout y u no work
20:33:44 <arseniiv> <b_jonas> can you imagine doing that to marble? => seems a lot of work!
20:35:21 <cd> ah
20:35:23 <cd> mudem is broke
20:40:30 <cd> fizzie: sorry for the poke, trying to get umlbox working and the one thing holding me up is stdout. Not sure how to get it to actually give me the result of the ran command atm
20:41:17 <cd> oh i see you have a umlbox fork :P
20:41:19 <fizzie> All I remember about it is, it's very temperamental. Especially when it comes to the output.
20:41:52 <fizzie> Yeah, if you want the specifics of how it's set up for HackEso, it's that version of umlbox, and then the hackbot repo shows how it's being invoked.
20:42:03 <fizzie> I think I mostly just did a rewritten init.
20:42:27 <fizzie> And I think my setup is mudem-free, because I didn't need any multiplexing.
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20:44:13 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso#Implementation_details might also have some useful tidbit in it, who knows. Probably not, though.
20:44:44 <cd> Thanks, atm I'm considering the feasability of rehosting hackeso, again.
20:44:52 <cd> just for fun mostly
20:45:10 <cd> whole setup is quite interesting aha
20:46:28 <cd> and I certainly noticed it's temperamental ^^;
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21:09:20 <Lykaina> hi
21:10:31 <b_jonas> hello Lykaina
21:10:45 <b_jonas> you haven't been here for a while
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21:12:38 <esolangs> <Sgeo> Hi Lykaina
21:12:47 <esolangs> <Sgeo> I should probably move over to Libera soonish
21:12:58 <Lykaina> just setting up Libera
21:14:16 <Lykaina> Sgeo: when you do, let me know
21:15:46 <river> this is bridged
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21:16:46 <Lykaina> river: and publicly logged
21:17:04 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:20:32 <river> oh shit
21:20:36 <river> how do I delete my previous message
21:21:36 <fizzie> We should probably figure out a mechanism for that, actually. Though it's complicated by having it publicly logged to a bunch of independent places.
21:22:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think there are multiple incompatible IRC extensions for that
21:22:39 <b_jonas> at least one more native IRC one, and one that twitch uses to map its own message deletes
21:22:49 <Sgeo> The name of this place almost makes me sad that we won't get people coming in here thinking it's about ghosts
21:23:06 <fizzie> Sgeo: We've got #esoteric redirected here, so it's still quite possible.
21:23:09 <b_jonas> Sgeo: we will, because #esoteric redirects here
21:23:42 <b_jonas> Sgeo: we might not have Canaima people coming in here, so we should submit a patch to Canaima to forward them here, plus keep some amount of presence on freenode/#esoteric to redirect anyone who arrives there
21:24:34 <cd> agh what a pain
21:24:40 <cd> i got everything working only for no output again
21:25:48 <Sgeo> Canaima?
21:26:44 <b_jonas> `? canaima
21:26:46 <HackEso> Canaima is a secret Venezuelan project to overrun #esoteric with incomprehensible people who have no idea why they're here.
21:27:49 <nakilon> is there any language or other math system that has no zero?
21:28:23 <Lykaina> ancient phoenecian
21:28:31 <b_jonas> I think it's like the old AOL install CDs, but they mistyped the contact phone number, so everyone arrives here
21:29:52 <b_jonas> oh by the way, the television media card thingy that I just installed to my grandma's television (basically just follow the instructions on the paper manual to type in a few numbers and insert the card into the slot in the back of the TV) gives an error message that refers the user to an obsolete customer service short phone number that now call a different inappropriate service provider's customer
21:29:59 <b_jonas> service
21:30:12 <b_jonas> the short phone numbers keep changing every few years, probably as a method of obfuscations so fewer people reach customer services
21:30:31 <nakilon> like changing IRC networks
21:31:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: there's Forte where you have to cope with some numbers being unusable, and there was another esolang with a similar property but with the set of unusable numbers fixed
21:31:40 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes
21:31:48 <b_jonas> but that doesn't happen every few yeras
21:32:09 <b_jonas> I have entries inherited from around 2008 in my irc configuration that still work
21:32:12 <b_jonas> channels
21:32:43 <cd> fizzie: do you happen to have any clue as to what causes stdout to just not work?
21:33:00 <nakilon> there should be a RAM with unusable memory addresses that correspond to prime numbers, preferably very large prime numbers
21:33:05 <cd> i have the entire multibot setup functional, it's just umlbox not cooperating now
21:33:26 <b_jonas> nakilon: oh yeah, that exists too:
21:34:14 <b_jonas> https://www.linusakesson.net/scene/safevsp/index.php
21:34:51 <b_jonas> it mentions a case where you want to program such that every eighths byte in the memory is unusable
21:36:27 <nakilon> I remember how on 32 Windows every 4th gigabyte of 4 GB RAM was unusable
21:36:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: prime numbers are easier, because there are large gaps between them, so if the memory is infinitely large, you can just choose a large enough contiguous subset. sure, it might require you to buy an exponentially larger sized memory chip, who cares, RAM is cheap
21:36:31 <fizzie> cd: Not really, just vague recollections that I've had problems with the output, especially when it comes to those con1/con2/con UML command-line arguments and getting them all right.
21:37:05 <nakilon> b_jonas ok, prime number div 100
21:38:21 <fizzie> There's something very unintuitive about what those parameters mean, especially when it comes to separate input and output designations.
21:39:16 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure I had it in a state at least once where the `-v` mode worked fine but had all that kernel output spam, while the non-verbose version just lost the command stdout somewhere.
21:40:09 <fizzie> Not impossible there's even some Linux kernel version differences, I've certainly had to do tweaking when upgrading the kernel.
21:40:13 <nakilon> or imagine the memory that rotates sometimes, like by 1 byte every second
21:41:13 <nakilon> and the growing end does not copy data from the dying start but fills with zeros
21:41:35 <fizzie> I think I might have it working on Debian's UML kernel at the moment, rather than a self-built one. Maybe. Can't tell from my notes.
21:42:09 <nakilon> btw about notes that you can't tell from
21:42:26 <nakilon> is it also common in other countries that it's damn impossible to read what doctors write?
21:42:39 <nakilon> https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BA+%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B0&rlz=1C1SQJL_ruRU840RU840&sxsrf=ALeKk03EOZnntQ-kI9YTsmdda1hgQS0vdA:1621719750655&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj-s6btoN7wAhXjl4sKHfJmAGMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1279&bih=684&dpr=2
21:42:44 <fizzie> Actually, looks like it's built from Debian's `user-mode-linux` package sources but with patching.
21:42:59 <fizzie> And I think doctors' handwriting is one of those classic things to joke about, so probably.
21:43:53 <b_jonas> nakilon: that would just be like old DRAMs with no built-in refresh logic, so you have to refresh them from the CPU
21:44:05 <nakilon> I just looked at like 10 of these images and could not understand a single word, neither I could do about my own medical book
21:44:14 <b_jonas> also,
21:44:39 <b_jonas> ais523: you're fizzie's second-in-command, do you have any opinion to weigh in about the future of #esoteric after all the freenode drama? I'd like to hear
21:45:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, that's common
21:45:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: pharmacists train hard to be able to read it, and then they tell stories about particular doctors where even they can't read the handwriting
21:46:04 <b_jonas> (also about stupid doctors who write readable but stupid instructions, for which they have to check and filter out to not harm the patient too much, but that's less funny)
21:46:19 <nakilon> they should have a special font now when it's computerised
21:46:46 <nakilon> called kshfjdbhfj.ttf
21:47:32 <b_jonas> that said, my handwriting is unreadable too
21:47:48 <b_jonas> and it's very different from my brother's handwriting
21:47:53 <nakilon> maybe you have medical talents you didn't develop
21:48:01 <b_jonas> no, it's my brother who's the doctor
21:48:03 <cd> fizzie: I'm not sure it's even attempting to run the kernel, judging from the --verbose output
21:48:07 * cd sighs
21:48:55 <cd> or rather, i'm getting no output from the kernel
21:49:50 <cd> running the command myself "works" (tmp file since deleted)
21:51:21 <cd> https://pybin.pw/He0C atm this is the most it tells me
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21:52:35 <nakilon> lol issue closed https://github.com/sjvasquez/handwriting-synthesis/issues/9
22:05:23 <cd> ok wtf, uml is very much being tempermental
22:06:58 <cd> > ioctl /random: bad address
22:07:00 <lambdabot> error:
22:07:00 <lambdabot> Variable not in scope: ioctl :: g -> (a, g)error:
22:07:00 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: bad :: t0 -> [g -> (a, g)]
22:07:04 <esolangs> [[User talk:AlvinBalvin321]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83192&oldid=76349 * AlvinBalvin321 * (+4720) /* ? */
22:11:29 <cd> output now works by removing random entirely, but writing to env doesn't seem to function
22:16:43 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v esolangs.
22:16:44 <cd> `` cat $(which "\`")
22:16:45 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnoooooodl
22:17:31 <river> wthat the heck?
22:17:33 <cd> `quote
22:17:33 <HackEso> 1030) <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
22:17:43 <river> `` which rnoooooodl
22:17:44 <HackEso> No output.
22:17:47 <river> `` cat $(which rnoooooodl)
22:17:48 <HackEso> No output.
22:18:01 <river> `` grep -R / rnoooooodl
22:18:04 <HackEso> grep: rnoooooodl: No such file or directory
22:18:10 <river> `` grep -R rnoooooodl /
22:18:44 <fizzie> Oh, that thing.
22:18:46 <HackEso> grep: /etc/alternatives/my.cnf: No such file or directory
22:18:59 <fizzie> river: It's actually got a few less 'o's in it.
22:19:12 <fizzie> `cbt `
22:19:13 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ cmd="${@-quote}" \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$cmd" | rnooodl
22:19:33 <fizzie> But when you're *actually* running through it, it adds more.
22:19:46 <fizzie> `cbt rnooodl
22:19:47 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
22:19:48 <river> Of coursee
22:24:07 <b_jonas> I hate rnoodl, and I hate bin/\` for using it
22:24:40 <b_jonas> bin/\`\` too
22:24:59 <b_jonas> I always wanted to just remove it from bin/\` and bin/\`\` but I don't dare
22:25:04 <b_jonas> it can stay in the wisdom commands
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22:53:45 <nakilon> when I was coding in RASEL I needed to make some large number and it appeared to be less trivial to do that in Befunge
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22:54:11 <nakilon> in Befunge you just :*:*:*:* to increase it rapidly but it's more complicated when you don't have a multiplication operation
22:56:12 <nakilon> so you can either have a large N and repeat :1\//
22:57:28 <nakilon> or maybe do some 1 / (1/N - 1/M) but I'm not 100% sure it would be any faster per cycle
22:58:17 <nakilon> but may make the path towards the number you need more interesting
23:01:17 <cd> annnd hackbot copy is now mostly working(tm)
23:01:30 <cd> `revision
23:01:30 <b_jonas> nice
23:01:31 <HackEso> revision? No such file or directory
23:06:22 <fizzie> Whoops, need to flip a setting.
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23:16:09 <ProofTechnique> Perhaps the most esoteric thing of all, a minutely more descriptive channel name
23:17:58 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83193&oldid=83149 * Zero player rodent * (+737)
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23:23:19 <int-e> oh "profession" would have fit in the religious theme
2021-05-23
00:07:41 <esolangs> <ghosthell> Non Terrestrial Or Terrestrial Beings which can help me with Trans Universal Transportation (Please PM Me)9
00:07:58 <cd> wat
00:10:06 <b_jonas> cd: it's just the usual "psychic needed, you know where to apply" call. if you don't have alien technology to time travel and build pyramids, don't worry about it.
00:10:41 <esolangs> [[RCEM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83194&oldid=83191 * Kaveh Yousefi * (-460) Changed the Common Lisp interpreter, basing it upon a hash table instead of a vector, such that a potentially infinite tally of cells as well as a negative indices become possible.
00:10:43 <cd> i found some funny looking shapes in my back yard, i bet aliens did it
00:12:58 <fizzie> Not bridging joins and parts makes those things come a bit out of the blue, but bridging them would be just awful.
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00:27:52 <cd> `` cat $(which mkx)
00:27:53 <HackEso> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
00:28:17 <cd> `` cat $(which mk)
00:28:18 <HackEso> ​[[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
00:41:15 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie.
00:41:19 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -t.
00:41:22 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie.
00:42:37 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/ | this channel is bridged, see "brctl: help ignore" on how to opt out.
00:50:24 <fizzie> Needs some actual integration work, for now I'm just running a parallel instance of the exact same frontend except with a different root path.
00:59:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, you told us that you're using an IRC library called IIRC "multibot" that you find hard to adapt to what you want
01:00:40 <cd> multibot is hackeso's lib. Now that i've looked through it, it's... interesting
01:00:50 <cd> very weird tbh
01:05:19 <fizzie> Yeah, multibot's for HackEso, and it is pretty quirky. For esolangs (logging, wiki recent changes, bridging) I'm using my own custom C++ thing, so any deficiencies in it I can just blame on myself.
01:06:04 <cd> tbh multibot is so simplistic it probably isn't too hard to write a replacement
01:06:28 <cd> it's just over 600 lines of C
01:06:30 <cd> not bad
01:07:15 <fizzie> Yeah, it's like the bare minimum of C to handle parsing the IRC protocol, and executing external executables (or scripts) in response to events.
01:07:29 <fizzie> It doesn't even do the sockets, it relies on socat for that.
01:09:24 <fizzie> The other bot's basically https://github.com/fis/bracket/ which is my homegrown single-threaded C++ event loop and other utilities of inconsistent quality.
01:10:43 <b_jonas> I sort of have a long-term plan to write my own IRC client thingy. I have some existing IRC code that is terrible but contains useful notes about the IRC protocol and freenode that I'll be able to use.
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01:56:48 <Sgeo> Ada (or a specific compiler actually) has magic variable names:
01:56:49 <Sgeo> "Or give the variable a name that contains any of the strings discard dummy ignore junk unused (case insensitive)
01:56:49 <Sgeo> "
01:56:57 <Sgeo> (To suppress unused variable warnings)
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02:13:49 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83195 * Batata * (+4915) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Numberlang |author=[[User:Batata|Batata]] |year=[[:Category:2021|2021]] |class=[[Turing Complete|Turing Complete]] |files=<code>.numl</code> }} '''Num..."
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02:16:15 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83196&oldid=83195 * Batata * (+4) /* Reverse Cat */
02:17:43 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83197&oldid=83163 * Batata * (-479)
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02:19:06 <fizzie> Reminds me of GCC's magic fall-thru comment, with a configurable sensitivity.
02:19:21 <fizzie> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html -Wimplicit-fallthrough=n
02:20:31 <fizzie> Level 2 matches /.*falls?[ \t-]*thr(ough|u).*/ case-insensitively, but it's the list of level 3 that's really the amusing one.
02:21:25 <fizzie> With gems like: [ \t.!]*([Ee]lse,? |[Ii]ntentional(ly)? )? fall(s | |-)?thr(ough|u)[ \t.!]*(-[^\n\r]*)?
02:21:56 <fizzie> Though I guess comments for silencing warnings or linters are a little more common.
02:22:24 <fizzie> There was definitely something (else) where you could do an `unused_` prefix on variables though.
02:23:16 <fizzie> I think that's pylint.
02:23:31 <cd> the very first major mod to hackbot i made was allowing it to use /me
02:23:40 <cd> because yes
02:30:27 <esolangs> <zzo38> I found a NSA document; it looks like it was printed out from a MediaWiki-based web page and then OCR to convert it to text.
02:31:07 <fizzie> Presumably not our wiki, though?
02:35:29 <cd> huh
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02:42:04 <esolangs> [[MarioLANG]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83198&oldid=83182 * HaleyHalcyon * (-13)
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02:45:09 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83199&oldid=83196 * Batata * (+18)
02:46:00 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83200&oldid=83199 * Batata * (+16) /* Cat */
02:47:47 <esolangs> [[Numberlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83201&oldid=83200 * Batata * (+18) /* Truth-Machine */
03:19:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 8Epic8 * New user account
03:26:23 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83202&oldid=83175 * 8Epic8 * (+167)
03:57:35 <b_jonas> Sgeo: some languages use variables starting with an underscore to suppress unused variable warnings: in perl and rust it really just suppresses the warnings (in perl you rarely need it because the warning only applies to globals, not lexical locals), but I think in some languages (was it Prolog? Haskell? I can't remember) it is more magical and makes them unique even if the name is repeated
03:58:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: if it's from our wiki, my guess is the BANCStar one
04:00:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: as for the fallthrough, there's now also a new-style attribute [[fallthrough]] for that (both in C and C++)
05:04:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ilaylevy * moved [[Yogurt]] to [[Dead]]
05:05:31 <esolangs> [[Dead]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83205&oldid=83203 * Ilaylevy * (+7)
05:40:55 <b_jonas> TIL from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyixMpuGEL8 why the transparency or alpha channel of images is sometimes called the "matte" channel
06:25:52 <esolangs> [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83206&oldid=57054 * Bangyen * (+108)
06:46:49 <esolangs> <zzo38> Write about ZZT, Free Hero Mesh, tarot cards, and the gemini protocol in the wisdom file, next.
06:47:47 <b_jonas> `? tarot
06:47:48 <HackEso> tarot? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
06:53:23 <nakilon> I'm really thinking about drawing a line in an IRC bot between handlers that are hardcoded in it and those that are deployed as a different app serverless
06:55:13 <nakilon> the hot reload capability would stop relying on bot implementation/language ability to do it
06:58:18 <nakilon> essentially since Ruby is very dynamic it's trivial and you use the "load" method that reloads the file where you put your "constants", methods and methods stored in constants (constants are identifiers of Modules) but there is still a room for coder's error about the runtime state
06:59:19 <nakilon> while writing the serverless app you are supposed to think stateless and can apply measures to be sure they are called only once
06:59:54 <nakilon> another approach would be just to call a subprocess of course
07:01:01 <nakilon> but that would still need you to update the source code on bot machine that is another risk to kill the bot
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07:40:32 <Taneb> Does anyone know an easy-to-compute metric on permutations of letters such that "carthorse" is close to "horsecart" but far from "orchestra"?
07:46:14 <nakilon> today's gif and these comments remind me how I (always unsuccessfully) try to teach people IRC https://i.imgur.com/ZH7715s.png
07:49:39 <imode> Taneb: you could measure the distances the letters moved.
07:50:11 <imode> find all positions of the letters in the first word in the second word, compute their differences, add the differences up.
07:50:25 <nakilon> Taneb if it exists it should be somewhere here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_metric
07:50:29 <imode> either that or something like that via hamming distance.
07:50:44 <Taneb> imode: that would make carthorse far from horsecart, wouldn't it?
07:51:03 <imode> Taneb: yeah, valid. you could use some form of common edit distance algorithm.
07:51:58 <imode> there's probably something efficient for the permutations case.. hm.
07:52:41 <imode> maybe adding and then taking the average?
07:52:44 * imode shrugs
07:52:58 <Taneb> Hmm, what about something with adjacencies?
07:54:10 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83207 * Kwes * (+784) Created page with "= i-ok = A small 1 digit esolang, for simple 1 letter usage. {| class="wikitable" |+ |- ! chars !! desc |- | i+ or i++ || adds |- | i- or i-- || subtracts |- | i* || multiple..."
07:54:13 <imode> actually if you let the differences be negative, it might cancel out.
07:54:29 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83208&oldid=83207 * Kwes * (-9)
07:55:50 <nakilon> also there is nothing matching here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edit_distance
07:56:00 <nakilon> so I assume the problem just isn't solved yet or is unsolvable
07:57:27 <nakilon> if you can assume that the string can be split only in two you may try to build something on top of length(str) splits
07:59:55 <nakilon> or
08:02:02 <nakilon> str.chars.each_cons(2).sort.map(&:join)
08:02:12 <nakilon> results in
08:02:18 <nakilon> ["ar", "ca", "ho", "or", "rs", "rt", "se", "th"]
08:02:25 <nakilon> ["ar", "ca", "ec", "ho", "or", "rs", "rt", "se"]
08:02:26 <nakilon> ["ch", "es", "he", "or", "ra", "rc", "st", "tr"]
08:03:09 <nakilon> and now you implement Levenshtein between these "two-byte-char" string
08:05:22 <nakilon> you see here it's distance 2 between carthorse and horsecart
08:07:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83209&oldid=83094 * Kwes * (+11) added I-ok
08:09:43 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83210&oldid=83208 * Kwes * (+23)
08:11:13 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83211&oldid=83210 * Kwes * (+0)
08:11:33 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83212&oldid=83211 * Kwes * (+1)
08:12:00 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83213&oldid=83212 * Kwes * (+1)
08:12:36 <myname> you could maybe do some substring matching like the bioinformatics people do all the time to find the string "horse" in both occurences, remove it and repeat
08:12:51 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83214&oldid=83213 * Kwes * (+0)
08:14:51 <nakilon> O(n)=python
08:18:12 <esolangs> [[User:Kwes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83215&oldid=83171 * Kwes * (+23)
08:19:30 <myname> if you make some reasonable threshold, it should perform pretty well
08:21:56 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83216&oldid=83214 * Kwes * (+30)
08:22:57 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83217&oldid=83216 * Kwes * (-6)
08:22:59 <nakilon> if you don't know in how many substrings it should be splitted it's N^N
08:23:17 <nakilon> you try h, ho, hor, hors, horse on each level
08:23:22 <nakilon> if I understood you correctly
08:24:34 <myname> i wouldn't try it that way. there should be algorithms to find longest substrings in O(n^2). you go through that as long as the substring you find is larger than something like O(sqrt(n)) to allow for reasonable shrinking and after that you just do levensthein or something
08:35:00 <nakilon> oh btw, in my approach you don't need the O(n^2) levenshtein, because lists are sorted already
08:35:51 <nakilon> so it's O(n) to split, O(n log n) to sort and then O(n) again to calculate distance
08:36:08 <nakilon> n+m, whatever
08:37:19 <myname> how would you do that in your example? "horse" cannot be put together by two-byte-strings
08:38:52 <nakilon> I don't put the horse together, I operate is as a ["ho", "or", "rs", "se"] sorted array
08:40:25 <nakilon> you can see this subarray included in two arrays in my copypasta above but not in the third one because there was no horse in it
08:40:49 <nakilon> sure it depends on the length of strings, it they are 100 chars long there might be fake horses
08:41:39 <nakilon> *if
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09:05:32 <nakilon> \help
09:05:44 <nakilon> is prefix \ bot-free currently?
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11:53:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nooder Coob * New user account
12:06:25 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83218&oldid=83202 * Nooder Coob * (+355) /* Introductions */
12:06:36 <nakilon> "and can apply measures to be sure they are called only once" -- forget this, since the commands I want to deploy are made in a supported language you can run Cloud Functions instead if Cloud Run so it's already solved on their side
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12:19:14 <esolangs> [[DotSnap]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (+1094) Created page with "== DotSnap Language == ==== What is the DotSnap Language ==== The DotSnap Language is a language dedicated to my stupidity, craziness, and vast imagination yet bounded with my..."
12:25:24 <nakilon> what a description
12:26:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: Go doesn't use an underscore prefix, but it does make the plain _ a special "blank identifier", which you can use for unused parameters, or in a multi-value assignment for values you don't care about, or a few other similar cases. And you can freely repeat it.
12:28:25 <nakilon> in ruby _ is a valid identifier and also you are allowed to use the same identifier as parameters or multi-vaue assignment, so people use _ in the same way
12:30:42 <fizzie> Speaking of bot architectures, I did almost complete a refactoring once of our esowiki/esolangs bot where I left just the "critical" bits (IRC connection management and channel logging) in the executable, and all other logic would have been in separate processes that connect to it over an RPC thing and register for callbacks for events they care about. Mostly to avoid having to restart it so often when
12:30:48 <fizzie> messing about, and also to avoid having the logging go down if some less important bit breaks. Not quite as cloudy, but a bit in that direction.
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12:37:31 <esolangs> <fizzie> zzo38: Oh, by the way -- you might have said something once about ignoring the wiki updates? I made the same bot (esowiki) do the bridge from the experimental Libera channel, so if you're ignoring it completely you might have been missing out on discussions happening over there. Sorry about that.
12:45:28 <b_jonas> Taneb: does it only have to work on words without repetitions?
12:48:09 <fizzie> The letter bigram bag distance thing sounded reasonable to me.
12:48:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: "the plain _" => yes, the plain underscore is a special keyword in rust too, when you use it in a pattern it can behave differently from using a variable that you only mention once
12:49:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: a refactor of esowiki? nice
12:50:01 <b_jonas> "and also to avoid having the logging go down if some less important bit breaks" => what happens when the web server breaks like it sometimes does from lurk mode?
12:51:28 <fizzie> Fortunately that already doesn't affect logging, just serving, since it's already a separate process. In the post-refactoring model, it'd probably be much the same, except it'd use the standard RPC mechanism instead of the custom-built protocol it now does to implement stalker mode.
12:52:09 <fizzie> If you can call "connect to a socket and just read protos from it" a protocol. Well, maybe: both contain the substring "proto". But I digress.
12:53:43 <fizzie> Incidentally, stalker mode doesn't yet work for this channel's logs.
12:54:00 <b_jonas> an RPC mechanism? in my vague plans for the vaporware irc client, the process that keeps the IRC connection alive and does only a few things so you rarely need to replace it just logs (almost) all traffic from the IRC connections into an append-only file, plus notifies subscribers after the file changes, that's the whole RPC mechanism for reading. of course that just pushes the harder part to other
12:54:07 <b_jonas> components. writing would be a bit more complicated.
12:55:31 <fizzie> That's a reasonable model too. I was going to use the "brpc" system, because, well, because it's there.
12:55:31 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83220&oldid=83197 * Batata * (+1)
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12:55:42 <b_jonas> admittedly reading also might be complicated, because I might want to exclude some sensitive information like passwords from the logfile yet temporarily relay them to a reader process
12:57:21 <b_jonas> though I could put them to a separate short-term logfile
12:57:34 <b_jonas> I dunno, ideally I never want to handle passwords read from IRC again
12:57:55 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83221&oldid=83217 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+55) Clarify
12:58:10 <esolangs> [[I-ok]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83222&oldid=83221 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) fix
12:58:44 <fizzie> I got the impression one of Libera's (well, Solanum's) vendor-specific IRCv3 mechanisms was this thing where you get an account tag for every message, so that clients can easily know which identified user account a message came from.
12:58:51 <esolangs> <zzo38> fizzie: Is there a regular expression to distinguish the messages?
12:59:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: freenode already has a mechanism for that
12:59:24 <b_jonas> I even have a bad implementation for it that works correctly and so I can use it as reference for a good implementation
12:59:46 <b_jonas> the protocol details are a bit complicated because it consists of three different parts:
13:00:02 <esolangs> <fizzie> zzo38: All the bridged messages start with "<nick> ..." and all the wiki updates start with "[[Page title]]", though the latter has color codes in it.
13:00:42 <esolangs> <fizzie> So I guess ^< should work for detecting the bridged traffic. You can see how they look like in the logs, of course.
13:01:06 <b_jonas> (1) you use extended WHO to read the account names when you join a channel, (2) you can opt in to the server sending extended JOIN messages that contain the account name of anyone joining later, and (3) you can opt in to ACCOUNT messages that the server sends whenever someone you see on a channel changes their account (by logging in to nickserv or logging out)
13:01:23 <b_jonas> I didn't know there was a new mechanism
13:01:45 <b_jonas> do they also have a tag to identify connections uniquely even if they're not joined to a channel?
13:01:46 <fizzie> I didn't look at it so closely. Actually, looks like there's a standard IRCv3 tag: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/account-tag
13:01:54 <b_jonas> as in, when they're private message me
13:02:09 <fizzie> That one ^ should do, since it's in every message.
13:02:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: well ok, but does libera actually implement that?
13:02:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: well that's more useful, though not quite what I asked about
13:02:36 <fizzie> I didn't really find the docs of the Libera/Solanum tag, so I only had a very vague impression it was something similar.
13:03:16 <fizzie> From a Libera server: Capabilities supported: account-notify away-notify chghost extended-join multi-prefix sasl tls account-tag cap-notify echo-message solanum.chat/identify-msg solanum.chat/realhost
13:03:35 <fizzie> So "account-tag" *is* mentioned there, but the one I was confused about was "solanum.chat/identify-msg".
13:03:46 <b_jonas> I also want a uniqe tag to identify the connection to the server, even for unidentified nicks, so that if a nick privmsgs me twice and they're not joined a channel, I can tell if they're the same connection, and more usefully, to send a private message that the server won't deliver to an unrelated person with the same nick who connected or nicked to that nick shortly before I send them the message
13:04:09 <b_jonas> I know you can send a message to a nick!user@host as an approximation, but that's just not the same
13:04:36 <b_jonas> and I know the servers do have such unique tags, they use them when the servers talk to each other
13:05:12 <b_jonas> "I didn't really find the docs" => thanks, I can just ask on #libera after the drama gets lower, the freenode admins were usually very helpful about that sort of thing
13:05:37 <fizzie> https://github.com/solanum-ircd/solanum/pull/4 implements it, and the comments said they're working on making those URLs link to the documentation, but they didn't yet.
13:06:08 <fizzie> Looking at the code, it's probably something else.
13:08:31 <b_jonas> there are also some other small but useful features of freenode's old server and services that libera still supports and that I'm glad for, such as that it resends the 005 replies when you ask for VERSION -- not every IRC server does that, and it's a nice QOL improvement that lets you more safely make it possible that you can emergency hot-restart even the process that is connected to IRC while keeping
13:08:37 <b_jonas> the connection alive even if it has a memory corruption and so its knowledge about its connections is mangled
13:08:43 <b_jonas> and yes, I know that's a stupid thing and I'd never do that in production, but still
13:10:47 <b_jonas> those 005 reply lines helpfully contain my nickname and the nick/channel case folding rule, all of which are really essential state to follow an IRC connection, and contain the network name, useful when you inherit multiple sockets and have no idea which one is supposed to be what
13:14:34 <b_jonas> I wish the IRC protocol was at least built such that when the server sends you a NICK/JOIN/PART/KICK message, it distinguishes whether it applies to your connection or someone else, so you don't have to know your own nick, which can change, to decide, but that seems too late to fix
13:15:21 <b_jonas> but I haven't seen an extension that does that
13:15:50 <b_jonas> for PRIVMSG/NOTICE it's easy, you only get a PRIVMSG targeting a nick if it's you
13:25:25 <b_jonas> I guess that's like the sort of things that compiler authors face when there's an existing programming language that used to be well-defined but then optimization technology marches on and suddenly they have to figure out exact semantics of what the optimizer is allowed to do, in smaller scale
13:27:11 <b_jonas> and then people who write interesting C or C++ or Rust programs also want to know the exact semantics to tell whether current or future optimizers are allowed to break their code
13:28:17 <b_jonas> and then you have to go to freenode/#freenode to ask about the guarantees of how the servers are in a forest, there can't be cycles, and what that implies about the ordering of messages originating from other servers, or to oftc/#llvm to ask about the optimization guarantees for floating point vector addition
13:28:42 <b_jonas> even though in production code you wouldn't want really to rely on those guarantees anyway
13:28:54 <b_jonas> it's not just me that happens to, right? I mean this is #esoteric
13:31:57 <b_jonas> and then you wonder about how that limits future optimizers, including how you'll have to modify TCP when we colonize Mars and then make an IRC-like thing that allows cycles and breaks those guarantees when we colonize a third place with pairwise significant light-speed limit information delay among the three
13:37:24 <b_jonas> I'm worried about the TCP thing by the way. with how slow updating basic infrastructure like that is, I really hope someone is working on suitable protocols in advance. there are a lot of theoretical problems, like you can't continue https anywhere if you want to cache webpages on every planet for faster reaction time without everyone who makes webpages having to pay for a server on every planet and
13:37:30 <b_jonas> moon. there might be a rebound from https anywhere to allowing caching HTTP proxies for that. at least I hope so, because the alternative where only big companies like facebook and google can host webpages would suck.
13:41:01 <fizzie> Hmm, well. I think Cloudflare's CDN services are pretty affordable (they've got that whole Cloudflare for Individuals free tier and all), but it would be kind of a shame if you'd be *forced* to rely on services like that.
13:41:40 <b_jonas> huh, why can't I log in to the internet bank? did they break the webpage?
13:41:53 <fizzie> They moved it to Mars.
13:42:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: they might be affordable *right now*, perhaps still if we only have presence on two or three planets (like how now many providers have one server in Europe, one in America, and one in Australia)
13:42:34 <b_jonas> but that doesn't scale well to a Galactic Empire
13:43:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: they could, but they'd notify me of changes that can potentially cause difficulties in accessing the internetbank interface
13:43:16 <b_jonas> good, now the webpage reacted
13:44:35 <fizzie> Cloudflare's CDN presumably has a *lot* of Points of Presence on Earth, so from a simple numbers perspective, if you lower the density to one / celestial body, I think you can cover a lot of ground^W space. Though the way interstellar commerce works might turn out to be *quite* different.
13:46:28 <fizzie> We have a bank we no longer have any products from, and they didn't say anything about what happens to the online banking credentials. So I tried it out (once right after, and once a week later), and both times it gave all the signs of passing through a login page, but then when it should have shown the landing dashboard page, the first time it gave an error message, and the second time it just gave a
13:46:34 <fizzie> blank page with an URL that had an error code in it.
13:46:57 <fizzie> I don't know if they've just not considered the situation where someone has their online banking account but no active products.
13:47:37 <fizzie> I'd kind of preferred to have closed the online thing "properly". But I'm not sure I want to start calling their customer support about it, especially now that I can't do it via a message sent through the online system.
13:49:54 <b_jonas> maybe we invent practical homomorphic encryption by then (plus obviously bigger and faster hardware available for cheap, which I sort of assume with space colonization), that would make this easier, the user would just download a cached copy of a large snapshot of the state of the bank encrypted homomorphically and run it on their own machine or on the ISP's beefy box
13:50:25 <b_jonas> and that state would verify your login details and send you the SMS for two-factor authentication
13:50:39 <b_jonas> I mean it presumably wouldn't still be SMS, just some analog
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13:53:07 <b_jonas> "I don't know if they've just not considered the situation where someone has their online banking account but no active products." => there's a bank where I have some rights to a relative's account, but no own account with them. there are silly limitations that they do to me for this: I can't buy the service where I can authenticate myself on telephone so they can give me help on phone about their
13:53:13 <b_jonas> services that I can access on the relative's account, even though the account owner could get such a service for free with their account.
13:55:01 <b_jonas> "I'd kind of preferred to have closed the online thing "properly"." => they can't do that, there might still be things you want to do with a closed account on internet bank, like inform them about changes in your address or review transactions that are resolved after you closed your account where someone else claimed you payed for it from your account earlier but there was a delay, or transactions where
13:55:07 <b_jonas> you potentially fraudulently tried to pay or write a cheque after your account was closed, or repeating online payments where the other side tries to incur a fee because they don't know you have closed your account
13:55:36 <b_jonas> I think if you have a bank account, even if you close everything, the bank has to keep some information about it "forever", or at least for a lot of years
13:56:48 <fizzie> Well, fair, but they could certainly invalidate my login credentials completely, instead of having them still "work" for logging into an error page.
13:56:55 <b_jonas> this sort of applies to a lot of businesses, but with much shorter terms, because everyone else has shorter limitations for how long they are allowed to try to say you owe them money after you stopped doing business with them than for how long you can claim that your bank owes you money
13:57:19 <b_jonas> yes, logging into an error page is probably not the correct behavior
13:58:03 <fizzie> I'm also interested in what they'll do about the last annual statement, which they've so far sent only electronically, which I would normally download from the website.
13:58:16 <fizzie> Hopefully they'll just mail it this one time.
13:59:21 <fizzie> (Not that I really need one, except to complete the set.)
13:59:46 <b_jonas> I don't think they will snail mail you the statement after you asked them to send only electronically, because some clients do that because they worried that unauthorized people steal snail mail from their postbox and the snail mail has sensitive personal information
14:00:07 <b_jonas> you can probably get the statement if you walk in in person and ask them, or maybe ask them to mail it to you
14:10:03 <nakilon> does brpc stand for befunge rpc?
14:13:09 <nakilon> "ACCOUNT messages that the server sends whenever someone you see on a channel changes their account" -- does you get these messages when someone does nickserv identify?
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14:14:14 <nakilon> 16:03:35 <fizzie> So "account-tag" *is* mentioned there, but the one I was confused about was "solanum.chat/identify-msg". -- oh this is it mentioned I guess
14:14:28 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, but only if you opt into it with CAP or CAPAB or some such message
14:14:52 <b_jonas> and if you and them share a joined channel at the time
14:15:04 <b_jonas> s/such message/such magic/
14:15:18 <b_jonas> and this is for freenode, I haven't tested anything on libera
14:16:36 <b_jonas> I guess I'll give in to the move for now, part freenode/#esoteric, and trust the bridge
14:17:58 <nakilon> well I lost it somewhere around Mars colonization
14:19:18 <nakilon> s/does you get/do you get
14:20:26 <nakilon> b_jonas still when you get the message from someone who's not on your channels you don't immediately see his state
14:21:08 <nakilon> and so you have to do additional requests to server and during that time user could be replaced
14:24:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: yes, if they're not on a channel, you can't even tell if a second message they send is from a different connection with the same nick!user@host
14:24:34 <b_jonas> also if you send someone a private message, even if they are on channels when you send the message, because there's a race condition
14:24:53 <b_jonas> the practical solution to this is to not use privmsgs in situations where you care about this, just use channels, since creating channels is so easy
14:25:00 <nakilon> rare case when GCP docs have things not described well enough https://cloud.google.com/functions/docs/securing/authenticating#exchanging_a_self-signed_jwt_for_a_google-signed_id_token so I don't understand how to fully build those damn JWT request
14:25:19 <nakilon> will have to attach GCP SDK to make Function requests (
14:25:28 <nakilon> in order to have them authorized
14:25:34 <b_jonas> oauth magic?
14:25:43 <b_jonas> or google apis?
14:26:16 <nakilon> the "Generating tokens manually" instead of using SDK that has all this magic inside
14:27:07 <nakilon> there is also "Generating tokens programmatically" that I might need to do only once too, but there is no Ruby among snippets, lol
14:27:20 <nakilon> and I'm just lazy to install others
14:27:42 <b_jonas> ah yes. "only once". and then you can throw away the logs for how you did that, because you'll surely never need to do it again.
14:27:58 <nakilon> "surely"
14:28:16 <nakilon> no, actually I never throw magic away and attach it as comments everywhere
14:28:50 <b_jonas> yeah, you have experience
14:29:36 <nakilon> that's rather seen practice than painful experience
14:30:17 <nakilon> back in 2013 when I saw the corporate wiki in the company that was full of people who are interested in their jobs
14:31:05 <b_jonas> job security by obscurity?
14:31:20 <nakilon> what does that mean
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14:35:27 <nakilon> I mean it was an awesome wiki that was very helpful, I was quickly finding snippets of other guys, and was easily building the picture of company projects; so I was learning all the wiki abilities to create documentation of our department and it felt like a correct thing to work on
14:35:47 <b_jonas> great
14:35:55 <nakilon> since then I'm accumulating notes and tend to commit them rather than throw away
14:36:07 <b_jonas> job security by obscurity is the opposite of that, when you don't document how you do your magic, so they can only do it by asking you
14:36:31 <nakilon> ah ye, I call it a sysadmin style
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15:16:01 <cd> `help
15:16:01 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
15:17:40 <river> \o/
15:17:42 <river> \o/
15:18:23 <river> `relcome
15:18:25 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:18:43 <river> ` grep -Ri freenode
15:18:43 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
15:18:49 <river> ` grep -Ri freenode $HACKENV
15:18:50 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
15:19:10 <river> ` cat $HACKENV/* | grep -i freenode
15:19:11 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
15:21:42 <b_jonas> there's some more (unfinished) help at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hackeso
15:21:53 <b_jonas> sorry, at https://esolangs.org/wiki/HackEso
15:23:46 <river> ` which grep
15:23:47 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
15:23:54 <river> `run which grep
15:23:55 <HackEso> ​/bin/grep
15:24:01 <river> `run grep -Ri freenode $HACKENV
15:24:33 <HackEso> Binary file /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/ick matches \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:void prexpr(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void prvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prvar(np->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prexpr(sp->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void ooprvar(node *np, FIL
15:24:40 <b_jonas> brctl: help
15:24:40 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
15:24:52 <nakilon> -I to ignore binary files I guess
15:24:58 <river> `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV
15:25:24 <b_jonas> brctl: help ignore
15:25:24 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
15:25:24 <river> hah. int freenode
15:25:28 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:void prexpr(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void prvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prvar(np->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c: prexpr(sp->lval, fp, freenode); \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/src/feh2.c:static void ooprvar(node *np, FILE *fp, int freenode) \ /hackenv/interps/c-intercal/
15:25:38 <river> `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV | grep -v 'int freenode'
15:25:40 <nakilon> `run grep -RiI freenode $HACKENV | wc -l
15:26:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: by the way, the 005 replies claim that the name of this network is libera.chat, not libera, as far as the servers are concerned
15:26:14 <HackEso> No output.
15:26:16 <HackEso> No output.
15:27:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83223&oldid=83103 * B jonas * (+652) /* Communications */ possible move from freenode
15:27:05 <nakilon> 001 too
15:28:00 <fizzie> As I understand from the web presence, "Libera.Chat" is the proper name of the network, and "Libera Chat" the organization that runs it.
15:28:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'm mostly wondering what syntax for the network brctl: ignore accepts, but I don't want to know enough to experiment with it
15:29:08 <fizzie> Oh. It's all manually configured, so the names are just "libera" and "freenode" because that's what I put in the file.
15:29:43 <b_jonas> that said, I'm going to call the network libera too
15:29:47 <b_jonas> probably
15:30:18 <fizzie> I think it's unambiguous enough in context, for the purposes of things like IRC commands and URLs where brevity is appreciated.
15:30:36 <b_jonas> I care about
15:30:53 <b_jonas> I mostly care about the network name in 005 because it's a useful thing to double-check in a bot to avoid silly misconfiguration mistakes
15:31:14 <b_jonas> it's not something I can trust, because a malicious IRC client can lie that they're part of freenode in that field
15:35:35 <fizzie> Here's a thing I should fix: if I use Emacs Magit mode to make a commit, and it's one of these repositories where I've configured commit.gpgsign=true to sign all commits, and I haven't authenticated to the GPG agent recently, it will try to ask for a key passphrase in a way that goes horribly wrong.
15:37:11 <fizzie> The curses pinentry dialog will pop up in some unrelated terminal, and in such a mode that the keypresses will be only partially (seemingly at random) interpreted by the passphrase entry dialog, and the others will be echoed, and the only way I have to recover is to kill the pending git command and the pinentry process.
15:38:05 <fizzie> It works fine when executed from a regular terminal though, but it's some sort of an interaction with running Emacs in a server. I'm sure someone's figured it out, I just haven't.
15:45:11 <FireFly> I called it libera in weechat at least
15:45:36 <cd> Yea that’s what I called it in my bouncer
15:54:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: oops
15:58:18 -!- fizzie has set topic: Welcome to the liberated church of esoteric programming proselytization, propagation, and pronunciation! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://logs.esolangs.org/ | this channel is bridged, see "brctl: help ignore" on how to opt out.
16:08:05 <nakilon> liberated church? what does that mean lol
16:10:09 <int-e> nakilon: I started out with "libera" and the rest is word association games
16:11:03 <nakilon> bot should make up new topic
16:12:58 <int-e> basically I was just one-upping myself anyway (see topic on fr**node)
16:13:35 <nakilon> woah
16:14:02 <nakilon> while trying to escape the JSON dumped RASEL code for echo and curl it seems that I've created a file
16:14:09 <nakilon> and it's named /?@,Gj"dlroW ,olleH\">/?@,Gj"
16:14:24 <nakilon> with both slashes, and I thought it's impossible to create files with /
16:15:22 <nakilon> good thing I have a GUI or I won't be able to remove it
16:18:44 <b_jonas> nakilon: it's possible to create files with slashes in their names on windows, just not the usual way you use the API.
16:19:21 <b_jonas> (and it's inadvisable)
16:21:29 -!- mich181189 has joined.
16:46:30 <nakilon> "Unexpected internal error"
16:46:33 <nakilon> thank you google
16:47:18 <nakilon> I use Windows only for gaming
17:13:09 <nakilon> fine, I'll give up and rely on preinstalled gcloud sdk
17:27:56 -!- tech_exorcist_ has joined.
17:30:12 -!- tech_exorcist has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:38:21 <esolangs> <zzo38> I had: i /:esowiki![^ ]* PRIVMSG #esoteric :/i But, I will change it now; let's try
17:39:02 <esolangs> <zzo38> Maybe now it will work; let's see
17:39:27 <fizzie> This is a message from the bridge, so if you saw it, it worked.
17:39:33 <esolangs> <zzo38> No, that won't work
17:39:56 <fizzie> Right, I guess it doesn't prove that it suitably ignored one of the wiki updates.
17:40:05 <esolangs> <zzo38> OK, I tried again.
17:40:18 <esolangs> <zzo38> This time, I can receive the message; it worked
17:43:01 <river> can you make the bridge drop every message containing the word fnord
17:43:35 <nakilon> also drop messages randomly for confusion
17:43:41 <river> good idea!
17:43:43 <nakilon> or replacing the nicknames
17:44:36 <nakilon> adding typos
17:45:01 <esolangs> <zzo38> Can private messages by sent by this bridge, or public only? (Does any IRC bridge support private messages, even if not this one?)
17:45:40 <nakilon> it's just a bot, whatever user can do it does
17:47:08 <esolangs> <zzo38> (Of course, if private messages are supported at all, then the bridge operator can potentially see them meaning it isn't so private, but still. Of course, so can the IRC server operators.)
17:48:07 -!- Soni has joined.
17:48:29 <Soni> brctl: help ignore
17:48:29 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
17:49:25 <Soni> brctl: ignore Soni
17:49:25 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
17:50:30 <Soni> hi o/
17:52:58 <river> brctl: ignore zzo38
17:52:58 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
17:55:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: "Does any IRC bridge support private messages, even if not this one?" => my old bridge cbstream supported sending private messages, but not receiving them
17:55:56 <b_jonas> I think fizzie's bot only forwards one or two channel, not private messages, but you'll have to ask them
18:02:40 -!- Thelie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:06:39 -!- chibi has joined.
18:10:35 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vivax * New user account
18:11:22 <river> yo
18:11:31 <river> yuo should do a GCF
18:11:38 <river> or move to ##esolangs
18:11:44 <river> the # vs ## thing sucks
18:12:08 <myname> huh?
18:12:28 <Noisytoot> Is esolangs a registered project/community?
18:12:39 <cd> it's being worked on
18:12:50 <Noisytoot> https://libera.chat/chanreg
18:14:17 <nakilon> GCF was created to support the efforts of developing countries in responding to the challenge of climate change.
18:15:44 <river> yers
18:15:57 <b_jonas> `? gcf
18:15:59 <HackEso> gcf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:16:23 <river> brctl: unignore zzo38
18:16:23 <esolangs> brctl: unignoring
18:30:31 -!- river has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:35:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Oshaboy * New user account
18:37:03 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83224&oldid=83218 * Oshaboy * (+97) /* Introductions */
18:44:29 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:45:29 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:47:20 -!- velik has joined.
18:48:52 <nakilon> \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
18:48:55 <velik> nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
18:49:12 <nakilon> finally I made it
18:49:44 <int-e> `? prefixes
18:49:46 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =.
18:50:38 <int-e> `slwd prefixes//s=.$=, velik \\.=
18:50:43 <HackEso> prefixes//Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
18:52:10 <nakilon> thanks
18:52:24 <nakilon> fizzie might want to add the nickname to ignorelists
18:52:51 <nakilon> here is the bot code https://github.com/Nakilon/nakiircbot/blob/master/example_libera_velik/main.rb
18:53:14 <nakilon> here is the Cloud Function code https://github.com/Nakilon/rasel/blob/master/examples/google_cloud_function/app.rb
18:56:18 <nakilon> and to add new function its cmd and address should be added to this gist https://gist.github.com/Nakilon/92d5b22935f21b5e248b713057e851a6
18:56:30 <nakilon> and then the "hot reload"
18:56:33 <nakilon> \reload remote
18:56:34 <velik> remote execution commands loaded: ["rasel"]
18:57:19 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|HackEso|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot|otherbot|j-bot|esolangs|bfbot|egelbot|velik)!
18:57:19 <fungot> OK.
18:57:45 <cd> fizzie: otherbot hasn't existed for... 3+yr
18:57:47 <cd> you can remove it
18:58:00 <fizzie> Yeah, I'll do a spring cleaning of that expression some day.
18:58:32 <fizzie> Noisytoot: We're waiting for a reply to our community registration email, but we already got verbally told it's okay.
18:58:48 <fizzie> Re what river asked, you can in fact tell the proxy to skip messages containing a keyword, like "fnord", but you probably shouldn't, because it would be confusing.
18:58:52 <fizzie> brctl: help filter
18:58:52 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove)
18:58:55 <fizzie> brctl: filtered
18:58:55 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: /!\\
18:59:25 <fizzie> I added that one because there was the ongoing spam thing where they were considerate enough to mark each line with that symbol.
18:59:31 <int-e> /!\ this is much easier than using /notice...
19:00:32 <cd> fizzie: can your instance of HackEso use CTCP action? I modified mine to permit ACTION and only ACTION, dunno if this one can
19:01:15 <fizzie> I think probably not, though I don't know if I care enough, given that it's not come up until now.
19:01:54 <cd> yea i assumed so
19:02:03 * int-e words around a verbified noun
19:02:05 <cd> if it comes up again I can hand over a patch
19:02:34 -!- river has joined.
19:03:16 <esolangs> <zzo38> I don't generally like to use CTCP ACTION, but there it is. So, we can see that the message is sent through the bridge, unchanged.
19:04:29 <esolangs> <fizzie> Yeah, it's just that a lot of clients only render it correctly when the ^A is at the very start. It's not great, but that's how it is.
19:05:04 <esolangs> <int-e> fizzie: well, that is the correct behavior
19:05:24 <esolangs> <fizzie> I'm pretty sure you were supposed to be able to embed CTCP inside messages arbitrarily.
19:05:33 <esolangs> <fizzie> Maybe not so meaningfully for ACTION though.
19:05:35 <esolangs> <zzo38> I still think it is better the way that it is, although, that is a valid concern; but, when they are rendered incorrectly, how does it render them? We can see exactly what are the problems with them specifically
19:06:16 <esolangs> <zzo38> Embedding ACTION like this is probably useful for bridging, though.
19:06:30 <nakilon> `rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
19:06:31 <esolangs> <fizzie> The way I saw int-e's message was as "<esowiki> <int-e> AACTION words around a verbified nounA", with the 'A' letters that are actually ^A rendered with reversed colors.
19:06:32 <HackEso> Hello, World!
19:07:54 <esolangs> <zzo38> On my computer, there is a /SET FORMAT option; with /SET FORMAT - it does like you describe; with /SET FORMAT + it diplays the CTCP part of the message in red.
19:08:25 <esolangs> <zzo38> (Although, it does this even if it is alone and not part of another message.)
19:08:37 <nakilon> the good thing about this serverless thing is that it easily stops when RAM or Time limits are reached
19:09:51 <esolangs> <nakilon> 22:02:03 <esowiki> <int-e> ACTION words around a verbified noun
19:10:03 <esolangs> <nakilon> this could be 22:02:03 <esowiki> * int-e words around a verbified noun
19:10:49 <esolangs> <fizzie> Sure, that'd be the obvious "pre"formatting for CTCP ACTION.
19:13:28 <esolangs> <int-e> fizzie: ugh, you seem to be right that CTCP in the middle of a message was meant to work
19:14:09 <esolangs> <int-e> but I imagine it would then result in two lines here, <esowiki> <actor>, * esowiki <whatever action was provided>
19:14:52 <esolangs> <int-e> so it would still be up to the bridge to turn this into something more sensible
19:16:21 <esolangs> <zzo38> Well, I still think that what it currently does makes sense, at least
19:18:11 -!- tech_exorcist_ has quit (Quit: tech_exorcist_).
19:18:22 -!- tech_exorcist has joined.
19:18:28 <nakilon> btw
19:18:38 <nakilon> 22:06:02 *** User ##esoteric is already on the channel.
19:18:59 <esolangs> <int-e> zzo38: it does
19:19:05 <nakilon> I feel like thelounge dropped previous logs
19:20:09 <nakilon> I guess there were two channels and then they were merged
19:20:34 <nakilon> and now I'm unable to switch to the old one to see the history, lol
19:21:09 <nakilon> it's now trashed somewhere in thelounge's sql db
19:23:04 <int-e> nakilon: fizzie can probably invite you
19:24:01 <int-e> but it also seems kind of pathetic, not being able to check the logs just because you're not joined :)
19:24:48 <nakilon> what about your clients? do you miss that chunk too where we were jumping around the hackeso ` `` ```?
19:25:04 <nakilon> cbt and stuff
19:25:48 <nakilon> int-e so another channel still exists?
19:26:04 <fizzie> There's still 10 people on ##esoteric, yes.
19:26:15 <int-e> nakilon: #esoteric and ##esoteric both forward people to join here
19:26:21 <int-e> to->who
19:26:29 <nakilon> yeah it looks like the thelounge limitation to be not able to read the log if you for example was banned and then you closed the tab
19:26:35 <nakilon> the tab of the channel
19:26:36 <fizzie> There was a big split, and then ChanServ kicked out a whole bunch of people with the reason "invite-only channel".
19:26:40 <int-e> fizzie: down from 22 the last time I checked... attrition!
19:27:02 <int-e> (apparently I was on the wrong side of that split)
19:27:16 <int-e> (doesn't matter, I only just noticed)
19:27:38 <fizzie> nakilon: I can invite you onto it if you do need it for the logs, though I agree that's a little weird.
19:29:44 <fizzie> The plan is to allow it to gradually empty, then leave it as an empty forwarded for a time, and then drop the registration, because in terms of policy I think anyone should be free to claim ##esoteric to talk about... whatever they think is appropriate for the name. We'll still keep single-# #esoteric for now.
19:40:26 <b_jonas> "otherbot hasn't existed for... 3+yr" => and I believe EgoBot hasn't existed for even longer, but we're an IRC community, we don't forget our past so quickly
19:40:49 <b_jonas> no need to spring clean that, there's no harm coming from ignoring those other bots
19:40:52 <b_jonas> oh by the way
19:41:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: I'll probably ask simcop to join perlbot to our channel, wherever that is, so you might want to have fungot ignore perlbot too.
19:41:28 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i would like to express my support for the peace process is not served in any way. indeed, famine and ethiopia: these are amendment nos 5, 11 and 12 because they merely restate the principles of transparency and citizenship at the service of other objectives which it may be claimed that the world's population by 2015 and the objective of the commission, may i ask you whether you do not insist on the inser
19:42:37 <b_jonas> perlbot is an instance of a modified version of buubot3, and simcop already brought it to libera
19:42:41 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83225 * Oshaboy * (+2437) Initial
19:43:00 <simcop2387> huh thought i brought it hear earlier already
19:43:23 <simcop2387> it will only speak when spoken to so it's usually fine
19:43:28 -!- perlbot has joined.
19:44:02 <b_jonas> nakilon: you're aware that backslash is valid as the first character of an irc nick, an in fact oren wore such a link for a while, right?
19:46:00 <fizzie> ^ignore ^(HackEso|lambdabot|metasepia|idris-bot|blsqbot|j-bot|esolangs|velik|perlbot)!
19:46:00 <fungot> OK.
19:46:17 <fizzie> (I know some of those are still obsolete, but anyway.)
19:46:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IPhoenix * New user account
19:47:42 <river> fungot!
19:47:42 <fungot> river: this week we have already been applying the practices of armed groups seeking to cut off supplies we must consider how best to reduce greenhouse gas emissions at global level to observe social labour standards.
19:48:11 <fizzie> Armed groups are one way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, yes.
19:48:21 <b_jonas> "<esowiki> * int-e words around a verbified noun" => I dislike formatting CTCP action that way
19:48:40 <b_jonas> I'd suggest "<esowiki> <int-e> /me words around a verbified noun" instead
19:49:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83226&oldid=83224 * IPhoenix * (+276) hi
19:50:27 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, and I would prefer just sending it directly. So, those are now three different suggestions.
19:52:14 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> nakilon: I can invite you onto it [libera/##esoteric ]" => mode the channel to passworded -i+k and make the password automatically track (a sanitized version of) /hackenv/wisdom/password ! then people who try to join accidentally will be forwarded here, but anyone can still join deliberately :-)
19:52:32 <b_jonas> simcop2387: thanks
19:53:05 <b_jonas> perlbot compose {echo > 3 -- fun}{echo got}
19:53:05 <perlbot> b_jonas: Error: unmatched closing parenthesis in compose
19:53:11 <simcop2387> np. i've added some features to it since we last talked about it, i can set this channel to have it's own namespace of factoids if you guys want it
19:53:41 <b_jonas> perlbot compose {echo {echo > 3 -- fun}{echo got}}
19:53:42 <perlbot> b_jonas: > 3 -- fungot
19:53:43 <simcop2387> https://factoids.perl.bot/ for a way to browse them all.
19:54:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks
19:56:57 <fizzie> b_jonas: We speculated about making an invite exemption that allows anyone already on #esolangs to join ##esoteric if they wish -- /quote help extban says "$c:<chan> - Matches users who are on the given channel", but https://libera.chat/guides/extbans doesn't mention it, and didn't work.
19:57:30 <imode> what is the difference between #esolangs and ##esoteric
19:57:38 <cd> basically nothing
19:57:45 <imode> I can't join it, neat.
19:57:59 <fizzie> It's supposed to just forward to here.
19:58:03 <int-e> imode: it forwards people here, just as #esoteric does
19:58:05 <imode> aha, that explains it.
19:59:08 <esolangs> <zzo38> If the help file says something that does not match the implementation, then you should file a bug report
20:00:01 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83227&oldid=83225 * Oshaboy * (+92) Categories
20:00:11 <fizzie> There's not much point in hanging out on it, really, but of course people still do. Well, I shouldn't talk, *I'm* still there too. Maybe I should just lock the topic and part, to show good example.
20:00:26 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83228&oldid=83227 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo
20:00:41 <fizzie> zzo38: Yeah, although I can't rule out the possibility that I did something wrong.
20:01:00 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, that is what you will have to check first
20:01:55 <b_jonas> simcop2387: there's a web interface listing them? hmm, that sort of ruins the joke where the only way to list them was to list ones matching each individual byte like compose `compose [echo `eval join"",map{"[fact search [eval chr $_]]"} 0..255']' except that one times out so it doesn't work
20:02:49 <simcop2387> yea there started to get to be too many factoids for search to work like that anymore so i had to do something else
20:03:10 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83229&oldid=83228 * Oshaboy * (+53) Typo and extra info
20:03:23 <simcop2387> there's also the factgrep command that looks only at the subject of the factoid and gives it back as a perl/json array to be consumed in macros
20:03:30 <simcop2387> perlbot: factgrep _be_
20:03:30 <perlbot> simcop2387: ["_be_abesimpson_it","_be_brain","_be__default","__be_elliott_poop","_be_elliott_poop","_be_florianbd_functions","_be_foo_blarg","_be__get_list","_be_huf_anyad","_be_kent\\n_news","_be_kthx","_be_larry_underwood_song","_be_list","_be_mst_cistern","_be_mst_snort","_be_parv_thanks","_be_paste","_be_pearl","_be_simcop2387_mrceremonies","_be_web","_be_xenu_1"]
20:03:31 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83230&oldid=83229 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo
20:03:52 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:03:54 <b_jonas> well... you could add some way in the factoid plugin to get a window into the list of factoid names, so that we can list them even automated in a macro, but that would be work
20:04:03 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83231&oldid=83230 * Oshaboy * (+0) Typo
20:04:21 <b_jonas> wait, factgrep?
20:04:24 <simcop2387> and the search is now also powered by postgresql's full text search engine, including macro outputs. so it tends to do better on actual searches
20:04:35 -!- kspalaiologos has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:04:39 <simcop2387> yea runs a regex across all the factoid subjects (not the contents)
20:04:45 <simcop2387> so that things like this are doable
20:04:46 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83232&oldid=83231 * Oshaboy * (+45) Extra Info
20:04:48 <simcop2387> perlbot: literal be
20:04:48 <perlbot> simcop2387: P:macro be is [eval $str="[fact [8ball [fact _be__get_list [arg]]]]"; $arg=[quote d [arg]]; if ($arg =~ /^\s*a\s+retard\s*$/) {$arg=[quote d [arg &n]]}; if ($arg =~ /^\s*$/) {$str} else {"<".$arg."> ".$str}]
20:05:01 <b_jonas> perlbot fact literal factgrep
20:05:15 <simcop2387> it's a command part of the factoid plugin, no way to do it otherwise
20:05:30 <b_jonas> help fact
20:05:33 <simcop2387> perlbot: literal _be__get_list
20:05:33 <perlbot> simcop2387: macro _be__get_list is `eval use JSON::MaybeXS qw/decode_json/; $bel= decode_json `quote d `fact factgrep ^_be_`arg!!!; return `quote d `fact _be__default!! unless (@$bel); @$bel = (@$bel, @$bel); join(', ', @$bel) =~ s/,/ or /r!
20:05:44 <simcop2387> i've not kept up with the help properly for it all
20:05:54 <b_jonas> simcop2387: yeah, help text are hard to write
20:06:01 <simcop2387> it's just a PCRE regex against the factoids
20:06:17 <b_jonas> wait, a PCRE regex powered by postgres?
20:06:22 <simcop2387> yea
20:06:40 <simcop2387> at least i think it was pcre. can't remember
20:06:47 <nakilon> id perl esoteric?
20:06:56 <cd> it can be
20:07:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: perl isn't, but perlbot is
20:07:13 <simcop2387> it probably would be considered so these days
20:07:18 <nakilon> b_jonas yeah, it might be valid nickname char but I'm used to it from some time ago
20:07:34 <nakilon> I hope no one name himself \rasel
20:07:54 <nakilon> anyway
20:08:09 <nakilon> \rasel some random text that people would write here
20:08:12 <velik> nakilon, output: "", exit code: 255
20:08:31 <simcop2387> i wish we had the ircv3 extension that let you have unicode nicks.
20:08:56 <b_jonas> `echo perlbot echo hi
20:08:57 <HackEso> perlbot echo hi
20:08:57 <perlbot> HackEso: hi
20:09:28 <b_jonas> hmm, is that OK or is that a botloop risk in the future?
20:09:31 <b_jonas> I mean
20:09:39 <b_jonas> `echo j-bot: 'hi'
20:09:39 <HackEso> j-bot: 'hi'
20:09:46 <b_jonas> it's basically the same as that
20:10:06 <b_jonas> um
20:10:11 <b_jonas> oh yeah, j-bot isn't here
20:10:15 <b_jonas> I have to test that on freenode
20:10:30 <esolangs> <zzo38> I wouldn't consider Perl to be so "esoteric" but it does seem to be unusual in some ways. I have a list of unusual (or otherwise notable) features of programming languages, so if you know then you can add it, I suppose
20:10:34 <esolangs> <b_jonas> `echo j-bot: echo 'hi'
20:10:35 <esolangs> <HackEso> j-bot: echo 'hi'
20:10:36 <esolangs> <j-bot> HackEso: |security violation: echo
20:10:36 <esolangs> <j-bot> HackEso: | echo'hi'
20:10:41 <esolangs> <b_jonas> `echo j-bot: 'hi'
20:10:42 <esolangs> <HackEso> j-bot: 'hi'
20:10:43 <esolangs> <j-bot> HackEso: hi
20:10:47 <fizzie> HackEso's main anti-loop defence is that non-breaking space in front of non-alphanumeric first characters.
20:10:59 <fizzie> It kind of doesn't work for bots that respond to "nick:" prefixes.
20:11:02 <b_jonas> yeah, basically the same as how perlbot is invoked
20:11:05 <simcop2387> perlbot will throttle itself but it won't try to break a loop itself
20:11:05 <perlbot> simcop2387: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [woldrich] [woldrich > you] [well this] [well, it] [wonderwall] [hello there] [tl;dr] [wolfram] [wantarray] [webdragon]
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20:11:50 <simcop2387> that said i can easily just tell it to ignore the other bots if needed
20:12:23 <b_jonas> yes, j-bot can do that too
20:12:45 <fizzie> You might tell it to ignore HackEso and perhaps fungot. Though I guess traditionally we should get one botloop in first.
20:12:45 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, no doubt, however, also like to thank you and your house has understood this in as much as does parliament that the number of people who are in the process. of course, the quality of those jobs.
20:13:10 <nakilon> for now velik is almost loop-safe because the rasel output is prefixed with "output: "
20:13:18 <fizzie> \assuming there's no error for *all* text that starts with a backslash, only the ones that are specific commands, then I think conflicts are unlikely.
20:14:25 <b_jonas> hmm wait
20:14:54 <b_jonas> I'll have to look at that in more detail, because that sounds like there might be botloops that you can only start by changing your nick to a bot command
20:14:58 <nakilon> oh and this one
20:14:59 <nakilon> ping
20:14:59 <velik> pong
20:15:17 <b_jonas> \echo hi
20:15:39 <b_jonas> though if output is prefixed by output: that does sound safe
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20:19:32 <nakilon> \rasel 0
20:19:53 <b_jonas> > symbol "perlbot echo hi"
20:19:55 <lambdabot> error:
20:19:55 <lambdabot> • Variable not in scope: symbol :: [Char] -> t
20:19:55 <lambdabot> • Perhaps you meant ‘isSymbol’ (imported from Data.Char)
20:20:00 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo hi"
20:20:02 <lambdabot> perlbot echo hi
20:20:02 <perlbot> lambdabot: hi
20:20:07 <b_jonas> that's more promising
20:20:30 <b_jonas> yeah, but then it prefixes the output with lambdabot, and I don't think you can trigger lambdabot that way
20:20:36 <b_jonas> lambdabot: > 2
20:20:37 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run 3
20:20:39 <lambdabot> 3
20:20:41 <b_jonas> wait
20:20:48 <nakilon> oh it does not respond with bot-level exception like "HTTPRequestTimeOut 408 Request Timeout" here -- it PRIVMSGs it to me
20:20:53 <fizzie> Was going to say, I've seen people do the @run thing.
20:21:28 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot @echo hi"
20:21:29 <lambdabot> perlbot @echo hi
20:21:29 <perlbot> lambdabot: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.ec] [.eg] [.es] [each] [easy] [.hi.us] [high] [e] [ed] [.ee]
20:21:42 <b_jonas> > text "wait what? @echo hi"
20:21:43 <lambdabot> wait what? @echo hi
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20:22:01 <b_jonas> > text "@echo hi"
20:22:03 <lambdabot> @echo hi
20:22:09 <fizzie> > text "perlbot echo @run 123"
20:22:10 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @run 123
20:22:10 <perlbot> lambdabot: @run 123
20:22:12 <lambdabot> 123
20:22:17 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot @echo hi"
20:22:18 <lambdabot> perlbot @echo hi
20:22:18 <perlbot> lambdabot: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [.ec] [.eg] [.es] [each] [easy] [.hi.us] [high] [e] [ed] [.ee]
20:22:41 <fizzie> In the above, just replace "123" with something that generates text "..." and you'd be done.
20:22:41 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @echo hi"
20:22:43 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @echo hi
20:22:43 <perlbot> lambdabot: @echo hi
20:22:43 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "libera", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "perlbot!~perlbot@71.76.76.1", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esolangs",":lambdabot: @echo hi"]
20:22:43 <lambdabot> } target:#esolangs rest:"hi"
20:23:08 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\""
20:23:09 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
20:23:10 <perlbot> lambdabot: @run text "hi"
20:23:11 <lambdabot> hi
20:23:13 <b_jonas> that's absolutely loopable
20:23:24 <b_jonas> I will wait a little bit of time before I actually loop it though
20:23:35 <b_jonas> since I specifically asked simcop to join it here
20:23:57 <fizzie> I've got nothing to do with either perlbot or lambdabot, so I'll just make some popcorn and watch.
20:23:59 <b_jonas> perlbot help ignore
20:23:59 <perlbot> b_jonas: Sorry, no plugin named ignore found.
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20:25:03 <b_jonas> I mean I can make a loop that I can break, but still
20:25:33 <b_jonas> simcop2387: can you please make perlbot ignore lambdabot?
20:25:46 <b_jonas> int-e: can you please make lambdabot ignore perlbot?
20:26:13 <b_jonas> @ignore perlbot
20:26:13 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
20:26:18 <fizzie> $deity: can you please make all bots sentient, so they can decide not to get stuck on loops? Wait, maybe that's got some more implications.
20:26:23 <b_jonas> perlbot echo @ignore perlbot
20:26:23 <perlbot> b_jonas: @ignore perlbot
20:26:36 <shachaf> That's not even the command.
20:27:03 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore perlbot"
20:27:04 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @ignore perlbot
20:27:05 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore perlbot
20:27:05 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
20:27:29 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore +perlbot"
20:27:30 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @ignore +perlbot
20:27:30 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore +perlbot
20:27:31 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
20:27:37 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore -perlbot"
20:27:38 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @ignore -perlbot
20:27:39 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore -perlbot
20:27:39 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
20:27:41 <shachaf> That's not how that command works anyway.
20:27:52 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @ignore + perlbot"
20:27:53 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @ignore + perlbot
20:27:54 <perlbot> lambdabot: @ignore + perlbot
20:27:54 <lambdabot> Not enough privileges
20:27:54 <shachaf> You can't @ignore without privileges.
20:28:05 <b_jonas> you can't even ignore you?
20:28:09 <shachaf> Not even you.
20:28:14 <b_jonas> j-bot has a special command to ignore you
20:28:18 <shachaf> Privileges are checked before any command code is run.
20:28:18 <b_jonas> which works without privilages
20:28:30 <b_jonas> it's not the normal ignore command, a different command
20:29:25 <nakilon> what does "j-" mean?
20:29:36 <simcop2387> J language
20:29:51 <nakilon> oh cool
20:31:09 <b_jonas> weird, the lambdabot ignore command isn't even in the whatisdb. I thought it had all lambdabot commands.
20:31:13 <b_jonas> `whatis ignore
20:31:14 <HackEso> ignore(8jevalbot) - ignore messages from the given irc nick
20:32:53 <b_jonas> although now I should add perlbot commands to the whatisdb too
20:33:56 <nakilon> `whatis whatis
20:33:57 <HackEso> whatis(1) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(1hackeso) - display one-line manual page descriptions \ whatis(5hackeso) - no description
20:34:23 <b_jonas> it's mostly manpage headers, but I added a bunch of bot commands for fun
20:34:23 <nakilon> _Oo
20:35:01 <b_jonas> including "all" HackEso commands, except I think one that has a newline in it which the format of this whatisdb doesn't allow or something silly like that
20:35:07 <nakilon> `whatis b_jonas
20:35:08 <HackEso> b_jonas: nothing appropriate.
20:35:15 <b_jonas> try `? for that
20:35:17 <nakilon> sounds tight
20:35:20 <nakilon> *r
20:35:43 <b_jonas> but of course there are new HackEso commands since
20:35:54 <nakilon> `? b_jonas
20:35:55 <HackEso> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. He is often too busy with appeasing the M:tG gods to make any sense.
20:36:11 <cd> bit like the `info script my Hackbot instance has.
20:36:20 <b_jonas> I mean having manpages for HackEso commands actually makes some sort of sense,
20:36:26 <b_jonas> and then I went from that to other bots by analogy
20:36:35 <cd> `` cat ${which whatis}
20:36:36 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: ${which whatis}: bad substitution
20:36:47 * cd tired
20:36:58 <b_jonas> ``` cat $(type -p whatis)
20:36:59 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/python3 \ import sys, os, re \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print("whatis what?") \ sys.exit(1) \ else: \ argorg = [] \ argfoldv = [] \ foundv = [] \ for arg in sys.argv[1:]: \ argorg.append(arg) \ argfoldv.append(arg.casefold()) \ foundv.append(False) \ with open(os.environ.get("HACKENV","/hackenv") + "/share/whatis", errors="surrogateescape") as whatisdb: \ for line in whatisdb: \
20:37:01 <b_jonas> round parens
20:37:05 <cd> Ye
20:37:18 <cd> i just got in bed for a nap, so I’m tired and on phone :P
20:37:45 <b_jonas> ``` url $(type -p whatis) # might be more useful
20:37:47 <HackEso> https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/bin/whatis
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21:03:23 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" -- just to check if any of the ignores are set
21:03:24 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
21:03:25 <perlbot> lambdabot: @run text "hi"
21:03:26 <lambdabot> hi
21:05:40 <int-e> ugh
21:15:45 <b_jonas> int-e: please make lamdbabot ignore perlbot
21:15:58 <int-e> b_jonas: can't
21:16:02 <b_jonas> you can't?
21:16:23 <int-e> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
21:16:23 <perlbot> int-e: @run text "hi"
21:16:30 <int-e> oh
21:16:38 <b_jonas> I'll have to wait for simcop then
21:16:40 <int-e> anywa, I can't because I already did
21:16:44 <b_jonas> to make perlbot ignore lambdabot
21:17:06 <int-e> also, who is lamdbabot ;)
21:17:10 <b_jonas> int-e: this one is trivial to turn to a botloop, with the defined value or quine on either side
21:17:21 <b_jonas> :) typo yes
21:17:33 <int-e> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\""
21:17:35 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
21:17:35 <perlbot> lambdabot: @run text "hi"
21:17:37 <lambdabot> hi
21:17:45 <int-e> huh, I thought I did
21:18:06 <int-e> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\""
21:18:07 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
21:18:07 <perlbot> lambdabot: @run text "hi"
21:18:23 <b_jonas> also wait
21:18:27 <b_jonas> hmm
21:18:37 <b_jonas> oh right
21:21:07 <b_jonas> this still sounds like you might be able to get j-bot and perlbot in a botloop if you give the right invocation and nick away right before one of the bots wants to connect btw
21:21:11 <b_jonas> but that's hard
21:21:26 <b_jonas> but I will have to think a bit if there's an easier way
21:24:33 <b_jonas> apparently unaffiliated cloaks start with "user/" on libera, not "unaffiliated/"
21:24:50 <esolangs> <zzo38> Do you know what (if anything) to write about the things I mentioned adding into wisdom file? I don't know, by myself.
21:25:01 <esolangs> <zzo38> b_jonas: I suppose there is the advantage being shorter
21:25:07 <b_jonas> yep
21:29:15 <esolangs> <zzo38> (Although, I would like the option of forward-DNS-based cloaking, that allows you to use any domain name that resolves to the address that you are connecting from, in addition to the cloaking that is already implemented; this can be helpful when you cannot configure the reverse DNS, or if you have multiple domain names and want only one of them for IRC)
21:30:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really see what the advantage is of DNS hostnames in hostmasks at all, as opposed to just ip addresses, unless it's because hostnames are sometimes shorter, especially for ipv6, but we could abbreviate ips to such short base64 strings or something that this is almost never worth
21:32:53 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, IP addresses would also help especially if you wan to avoid a reverse DNS lookup (or any DNS lookup) on the server, for efficiency; it is what I do for my own server stuff.
21:33:30 <esolangs> <zzo38> However, the advantage of supporting host names is in case you have a dynamic IP address but still want to identify your computer in the IRC logs in this way.
21:33:31 <b_jonas> if it weren't for having to moderate spammers, I'd prefer if the hostname field just showed a dummy value, or something entirely different than a hostname, instead of an actual hostname or ip address
21:34:16 <b_jonas> but ip addresses help channel ops ban spam quickly
21:34:23 <esolangs> <zzo38> Some IRC servers do that, sometimes needing a +x mode (which is sometimes the default). However, if it has the format of a domain name, but it is not valid, then probably ".invalid" should be added to specify that it is invalid.
21:35:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think we already have some pretty well supported IRC syntax to mark fake hostnames, used for cloaks and services
21:35:58 <esolangs> <zzo38> There is the format with slashes, which are not valid in domain names, so that works, I think.
21:36:06 <esolangs> <zzo38> (But not all IRC networks use this)
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22:11:52 <salpynx> `؟ liberA
22:11:54 <HackEso> ​.ebyaM .erutuf eht fo dnal eht si arebiL
22:12:22 <river> woah
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22:14:05 <imode> salpynx: o/
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22:25:17 <arseniiv> oh, so ¿ does work too!:
22:25:19 <arseniiv> `¿ befunge
22:25:20 <HackEso> ​.dronF .sgnihT eht llA detnevbenat benaT dnA .benaT tog tognuF dnA .tognuF togeb egnufeB dnA .egnufeB saw gninnigeB eht nI
22:25:45 <arseniiv> was there a fourth question mark in unicode, hm?..
22:26:27 <arseniiv> `; unicode
22:26:28 <HackEso> ​;? No such file or directory
22:26:48 <arseniiv> `⁇ unidecode
22:26:49 <HackEso> ​⁇? No such file or directory
22:27:00 <arseniiv> `unidecode ؟
22:27:01 <HackEso> ​[U+061F ARABIC QUESTION MARK]
22:27:22 <arseniiv> there’s at least one more ؟, ⸮:
22:27:25 <arseniiv> `unidecode ⸮
22:27:26 <HackEso> ​[U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
22:27:31 <arseniiv> `⸮ unidecode
22:27:32 <HackEso> ​⸮? No such file or directory
22:27:51 <arseniiv> `? ⸮
22:27:53 <HackEso> ​⸮? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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22:28:34 <int-e> I find this trend very questionable
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22:29:34 <arseniiv> would it be good to have a wisdom about ¿?
22:29:55 <arseniiv> oh, I mean about those two other ones
22:31:15 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83233 * Hyperdawg * (+1075) Add some stuff
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22:37:39 <arseniiv> feel free to unlearn this but I hope this will stick :D
22:37:40 <arseniiv> `؟ ؟
22:37:41 <HackEso> ​؟ is more than just wisdom
22:38:28 <arseniiv> (and ¿ was already wise)
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23:20:00 <salpynx> I had hoped ¿ turned the wisdom upside down (rotate not reflect), but it's just a synonym for ؟
23:20:01 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83234&oldid=83233 * Hyperdawg * (+166)
23:21:02 <salpynx> (found it by looking in the source repo)
23:32:31 <b_jonas> > text "perlbot echo @run text \"hi\"" -- lets' try again
23:32:32 <lambdabot> perlbot echo @run text "hi"
23:32:33 <perlbot> lambdabot: @run text "hi"
23:32:40 <b_jonas> thanks, int-e
23:34:59 <fizzie> Turning characters upside-down is harder than changing their order.
23:35:27 <fizzie> If memory serves, Unicode doesn't even really have a good upside-down set for the English alphabet, you end up using silly approximations?
23:37:09 <fizzie> According to one online converter, this is not very wise -> ǝsıʍ ʎɹǝʌ ʇou sı sıɥʇ.
23:37:23 <fizzie> Which is okay, I guess, but not great.
23:37:33 <fizzie> Especially the i → ı part.
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23:43:38 <salpynx> `` python3 -c 'print("sı\u0323 sı\u0323ɥʇ")'
23:43:39 <HackEso> sı̣ sı̣ɥʇ
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23:52:32 <b_jonas> `jrypbzr
23:52:33 <HackEso> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggcf://rfbynatf.bet/>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba RSarg be QNYarg.)
23:52:37 <b_jonas> yeah, we do have that
23:52:56 <b_jonas> `welcome
23:52:58 <HackEso> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
2021-05-24
00:08:47 <simcop2387> b_jonas: done
00:18:29 <keegan> `coins
00:18:32 <HackEso> decientcoin kolmograntcoin tmmcoin duodcoin locatcoin kuffcoin brisccoin yoteritaftgnomagarabcoin regexicoin shoussencoin mertatecoin sincoin digicoin geoboaftcoin vivatiocoin kipsiancoin ooocoin amertcoin selfcoin tatcoin
00:18:48 <int-e> can I has an obsoletecoin
00:19:11 <int-e> Oh "selfcoin" is good, somehow
00:19:33 <chibi> Ooh?
00:19:35 <chibi> `coins
00:19:37 <HackEso> kildcoin atttecoin aricoin ollecoin chalcoin procoin puzzliccoin dogcoin aubeoncoin enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin stacoin alagucoin rubesyzcoin moncoin circutecoin udagerocoin inlamicrecoin scocoin tincoin sarcoin
00:20:08 <chibi> Yeah, I'll pay in enfingperloadskydozhleyearelycoin, is that okay?
00:23:04 <int-e> chibi: is that the cryptocurrency equivalent of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rai_stones
00:23:23 <cd> `` cat $(which coins)
00:23:24 <HackEso> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
00:23:34 <cd> huh
00:23:37 <cd> `` which words
00:23:38 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/words
00:23:43 <cd> `` cat $(which words)
00:23:44 <HackEso> ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #warn "Optional module Math::Random::MT::Perl not found.\n" if $@; \ } \ \ #constants \ my @options = qw(eng-1M
00:24:50 <esolangs> [[Whopper]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83235&oldid=83234 * Hyperdawg * (-166) /* hello world */
00:25:22 <esolangs> [[User:Hyperdawg]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83236&oldid=82458 * Hyperdawg * (+14)
00:27:02 <fizzie> I didn't remember it was a mixture of both English and esolang names, I thought it was just the latter. Plus the -coin suffix.
00:30:34 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83237&oldid=81589 * Hyperdawg * (+79) /* can you make a video on my language? */ new section
00:33:43 -!- jinn_ has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
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00:42:11 <b_jonas> simcop2387: thanks
00:43:16 <b_jonas> int-e: Raid stones => or those million dollar bills used for some questionable banking reasons in the UK
00:44:49 <b_jonas> the ones that are supposedly legally valid cash and you can pay with them anywhere, but if you try everyone will know you've stolen it (or worse, counterfeited) and they'll call the police and delay the payment on that account
00:45:08 <b_jonas> not really weirder than some of the other UK traditions really
00:47:42 <b_jonas> hmm, this spam "newsletter" that I get every week, why did I just get three copies of it?
01:04:27 <cd> fizzie: can I have a copy of hackbot's fetch from your instance? It's being super weird and I cannot get it working for whatever reason.
01:04:58 <cd> specifically, multibot/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch
01:06:11 <fizzie> It's exactly the same file as https://github.com/fis/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/fetch
01:06:32 * cd is annoyed
01:06:35 <cd> ah well
01:07:10 <cd> I'll keep debugging then, was worth a shot seeing if you modified it
01:08:16 <fizzie> The only changes I have in the running instance from the commit in github are: in multibot_cmds/PRIVMSG/tr_60.cmd, the `ignored_nick` list is changed (I should probably add more bots to it), and the lock file is changed from "lock" to os.environ['HACKENV']+".lock"); and in multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox, the /usr/bin/umlbox path is changed and `'--env', 'LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8',` is added to the list of flags.
01:09:11 <cd> Yea I prodded it a bit more than that, so i'll need to remember what I changed
01:09:36 <fizzie> I've got a commit in the checkout in a branch called `live`, which I rebase when I make changes to the public code.
01:10:08 <Soni> is it common to put esolangs in video games?
01:10:15 <fizzie> (So seeing what I changed is `git diff -r master -r live`.)
01:11:05 <fizzie> Existing languages developed for some other purposes, or languages made for that specific purpose that would still count as esolangs?
01:11:25 <Soni> both
01:12:08 <Soni> e.g. using brainfuck as a shader language for in-game computers (that use a real language on the game server)
01:12:24 <cd> `rakudo --help
01:12:24 <HackEso> rakudo? No such file or directory
01:12:36 <Soni> or, alternatively, command blocks...
01:12:37 <cd> meh, not surprised i couldn't get Rakudo to work inside UML
01:12:40 <cd> it seems to dislike it aha
01:13:20 <fizzie> I don't think that's very common. In fact, I don't think I've heard of any examples.
01:13:45 <cd> yea I was quite surprised, it works fine outside UML but inside it gets upset and crashes instantly
01:14:14 <fizzie> That was about esolangs in video games, to be clear, not about Rakudo.
01:14:21 <Soni> huh
01:14:27 <Soni> surprised https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Command_Block isn't anywhere on the wiki
01:14:31 <cd> ah
01:14:50 <Soni> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nViIUfDMJg
01:15:16 <fizzie> Soni: I think there's been some discussion about whether those kind of things should count, with no clear conclusion.
01:15:57 <Soni> hmm
01:16:02 <Soni> what are the arguments against?
01:16:03 <fizzie> I think someone was talking about writing an article about the TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS assembly languages.
01:16:34 <cd> my gut tells me those don't really count but I can't really say why
01:16:37 <Soni> uh, we don't know about TIS-100/Shenzhen/EXAPUNKS, but command blocks are exciting to us
01:17:42 <fizzie> Yeah, just saying, that's when the topic of languages designed to be part of gameplay came up. Though the Minecraft context might be even closer.
01:20:21 <fizzie> In any case, I don't personally have anything against having articles about them, and I don't remember any particularly convincing arguments.
01:20:21 <b_jonas> `prefixes
01:20:21 <b_jonas> ^prefixes
01:20:21 <b_jonas> perlbot prefixes
01:20:21 <fizzie> There's a https://esolangs.org/wiki/Spacechem_Programming_Language page but that's very stubby.
01:20:22 <b_jonas> Soni: it is common to have certain games, especially sandbox simulation games, happen to grow languages that turn out to be more powerful than the creator of the game intended, in the TeXbook appendix D sense,
01:20:22 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
01:20:22 <perlbot> b_jonas: No factoid found. Did you mean one of these: [purebasic] [prezses] [_purpose_0] [_purpose_1] [_purpose_2] [_purpose_3] [_purpose_4] [_purpose_5] [_purpose_6] [_purpose_7]
01:20:24 <HackEso> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
01:20:44 <b_jonas> or sometimes there's an existing game that works well and the developer sees how easy it would be to add a language on top of them to add some programming capabilities
01:21:06 <Soni> b_jonas: you mean TeX AVR?
01:21:59 <b_jonas> the latter applies to shapez.io and Factorio, the games I've recently been playing, which deliberately have some programming as part of gameplay capabilities added into them, but as those programming capabilities are weird, they automatically become an esolang where people try to solve tasks that the languages don't make easy and come up with intersting constructions like you have to in an esolang
01:23:05 <Soni> hmm. yeah so, are they or are they not esolangs?
01:23:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yit * New user account
01:23:58 <b_jonas> the former applies to OpenTTD (and its ancestor TTDPatch), which originally just added pre-signals to make it possible to make better train networks, where making train networks is the orignal goal of the game, but then it turns out that trains plus presignals creates an interesting esolang with surprising constructions possible
01:24:30 <b_jonas> Soni: dunno, I don't particularly care about the definition question here
01:25:00 <Soni> okay
01:26:22 <b_jonas> oh yeah, minecraft. I'm not too experienced in that, but I believe that has some of those programming as gameplay capabilities too
01:26:42 <b_jonas> it might be the most famous example
01:26:45 <chibi> OpenTTD seems like the kinda game that's boring to play normally but really interesting to optimize
01:27:00 <chibi> I wonder if (Open)RCT2 has anything similar.
01:27:08 <Soni> hmm
01:27:28 <b_jonas> chibi: yeah, there's an entire OpenTTDcoop community for that, with inscrutable internal customs and lots of scarcely documented game knowledge
01:27:44 <Soni> is raw iCE40 bitstreams an esolang?
01:28:14 <b_jonas> they know more about OpenTTD programming than anyone else, but it's hard to learn from them
01:28:25 <b_jonas> luckily they have IRC presence on oftc, which helps to some extent
01:28:38 <b_jonas> (well, if you're the IRC kind of person, which I assume here)
01:29:12 <Soni> (saying redstone is an esolang is like saying FPGA bitstreams are an esolang tbh :p)
01:29:27 <b_jonas> and of course there's some Super Mario Maker programming too, definitely esoteric but much more limited in general purpose computation capabilities than the previous examples
01:29:30 <chibi> Interesting, interesting. Ooh, DF comes to mind too
01:29:46 <cd> DF is probably turing complete in more ways than we've even found aha
01:30:05 <b_jonas> I'm not familiar with Dwarf Fortress programming, but I think there were some Dwarf Fortress players on this channel, there definitely are somewhere on ... um, freenode?
01:30:17 <cd> i'm right here
01:30:21 <cd> :P
01:30:37 <b_jonas> ah good
01:30:55 <cd> the most common way is mechanisms + minecarts computation
01:31:05 <b_jonas> feel free to ask me about shapez.io and factorio by the way. I don't know everything, obviously, but still
01:31:08 <cd> which is just a derivative of billard ball computation, with extra logical tools to make it compact
01:31:25 <cd> minecarts in their current form in fact behave like billard balls :P
01:31:50 <cd> usage of fluids is good for things like memory cells when you need compactness
01:32:01 <Soni> hmm are powerpoint and CSS esolangs?
01:32:04 <cd> fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof
01:32:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83238&oldid=83226 * Yit * (+83) adding myself
01:33:08 <Soni> well hm https://esolangs.org/wiki/(P%E2%84%A2TM%E2%84%A2)%E2%84%A2
01:39:25 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83239&oldid=50266 * Enoua5 * (+37) Update dead link
01:44:09 <b_jonas> Soni: pwoerpoint is definitely one of those accidental thingies
01:44:52 <b_jonas> "fluids are also probably TC, but i've not seen a proof" => do you have exponential quantity of fluids with as large storage tanks? if so, just implement Waterfall
01:45:26 <b_jonas> I think you only need like single exponential if you do it right, but I'm not completely sure
02:29:24 -!- cd has quit (Quit: leaving).
02:46:12 <salpynx> Something I discovered a few days ago: John Conway built a fluid machine https://nautil.us/blog/this-early-computer-was-based-on-a-urinal-flush-mechanism
02:46:43 <b_jonas> perlbot, prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:46:43 <perlbot> b_jonas: Stored prefixes are fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:46:43 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, madam commissioner, i do not feel it would also be an option. that is the reason why some members are left feeling slightly perplexed that they envisage an institution which is also true of the community which was only accepted when austria joined the european union
02:46:52 <b_jonas> perlbot prefixes
02:46:52 <perlbot> b_jonas: fungot ^, HackEso `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ , bfbot =, velik \.
02:50:05 <b_jonas> I wonder if we should try to break this category of bot loops by making it so that when a bot like j-bot or perlbot or lambdabot prefixes the nick of the requestor to a reply, it uses a delimiter after that nick that's never accepted as a delimiter for invoking a bot, so that you can't confuse invoking a bot from a bot replying you
02:50:36 <b_jonas> I didn't think of that when designing j-bot's terrible interface, but now I wonder
02:50:42 <b_jonas> what delimiter would be useful for that?
02:51:10 <int-e> the usual invisibl ^O?
02:51:21 <int-e> +e
02:52:49 <int-e> lambdabot prefixes most replies with a space in an attempt to prevent this kind of thing... but perlbot is too generous in how it is addresed
02:52:59 <b_jonas> j-bot accepts too many delimiters in that context
02:53:04 <b_jonas> int-e: hmm
02:53:24 <int-e> s/prevent/mitigate/ is more appropriate, I guess
02:53:57 <int-e> and there are some exceptions, most notably @where, which this channel has abused plenty
02:54:36 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm more worried about the kind of botloop where two bots reply each other with a nick prefix, like xbot says "ybot: foo" then ybot says "xbot: foo" (both on channel). the hard part is starting such a loop, which usually requires a race condition, but sometimes there are other sneaky ways, and I'd rather if the bots were designed such that such a loop can't be sustained, not just can't be started.
02:54:48 <b_jonas> but the control-O may be a good idea
02:54:54 <int-e> lambdabot: @run 1
02:55:06 <int-e> see, lambdabot wouldn't accept that with a leading space
02:55:16 <b_jonas> nor does j-bot
02:55:17 <int-e> lambdabot: @run 1
02:55:18 <b_jonas> perlbot echo hi
02:55:18 <perlbot> b_jonas: hi
02:55:19 <lambdabot> 1
02:55:21 <b_jonas> but perlbot does
02:55:35 <b_jonas> so that's not foolproof
02:55:35 <int-e> right, hence the potential botloop with lambdabot earlier
02:55:49 <int-e> well, nothing will be foolproof
02:55:58 <b_jonas> sure
02:56:25 <int-e> I guess one could do the fungot thing, stop replying after 5 messages from the same nick.
02:56:25 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i am happy to take our entrepreneurs, investors and companies there. it will no longer exist. as this is contrary to the texts themselves. now, europe’s contribution to the work of these authorities and to establish it as a substantial step forward, but rome was not built in a day. should not we in the group quite rightly, that the complexity of the groups.
02:56:39 <int-e> but that would be really awful for lambdabot's ordinary use :)
02:56:49 <b_jonas> lambdabot @run 2
02:56:55 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run 3
02:56:56 <lambdabot> 3
02:57:05 <b_jonas> lambdabot: @run 4
02:57:16 <b_jonas> perlbot echo 5
02:57:26 <b_jonas> j-bot: 6
02:57:36 <b_jonas> yeah, a control-O after the nick seems to work decently
02:57:57 <int-e> perlbot echo 5
02:58:01 <int-e> or before?
02:58:02 <esolangs> <zzo38> I think that, if a loop is detected, then perhaps NOTICE should be used for the reponse, and it should never respond to a NOTICE; if a loop continues to be detected after that, then it should ignore further messages for some amount of time, until it resets.
02:58:16 <int-e> prefixing with ^O is way easier...
02:59:05 <esolangs> <zzo38> That may work, but maybe it should be right at the beginning, rather than after the nick, I think
02:59:10 <b_jonas> I also have to be careful about bot loops in private message. I recall three such cases:
02:59:40 <b_jonas> one with buubot1 which just lets anyone ask it to send a reply in private message to anyone else, which is just plain silly;
03:00:17 <b_jonas> one with j-bot which is much more relaxed (though not strictly) about invocation syntax in private message than in public, and one with bfbot which had a bug about not escaping newlines or something like that
03:00:36 <b_jonas> so I have to be careful about private message syntax too
03:00:51 <esolangs> <zzo38> Even so, if there are still loops despite ^O then something will have to be done, even though that will probably mitigate it in most cases, but not necessarily all.
03:01:00 <b_jonas> perhaps I should add the same nick and delimiter prefix in the reply even when I reply to a private message
03:01:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: sometimes sending a notice during heuristically detected potential loops is not a bad idea
03:01:49 <b_jonas> I'll think about it
03:02:26 <b_jonas> I mean, the reason why we usually don't use notice is because it annoys some people because of their broken clients, but a bot loop is probably even more annoying
03:04:13 <int-e> I'll remove lambdabot from the channel before I change it to use notice
03:04:58 <esolangs> <zzo38> Yes, that is why you might do only if a loop is detected
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03:26:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * BadBoyHaloCat * New user account
03:28:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83240&oldid=83238 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+162)
03:39:42 <esolangs> [[Feta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83241&oldid=79598 * BadBoyHaloCat * (+265)
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05:18:41 <nakilon> morning
05:18:58 <nakilon> starts with esoteric
05:20:32 <nakilon> I made project euler 1 one-liner and wanted to show but realised the irc command can't pass stdin
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05:57:32 <esolangs> [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83242&oldid=63185 * Bangyen * (+131)
06:06:07 <Taneb> Good morning!
06:14:13 <shachaf> Good Maneb!
06:14:51 <shachaf> Do you have any neato fancy algorithms for me today?
06:14:57 <shachaf> You don't have to have invented them (though I don't see how you could possibly have avoided it)
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06:25:18 <Taneb> I do not :( I've been rather algorithm-ignorant as of late
06:30:55 <Taneb> Kruskal;s algorithm is neat, though
06:33:57 <shachaf> Hmm, minimum spanning trees.
06:34:26 <shachaf> That's the thing where almost every algorithm you can think of solves it optimally, right?
06:34:36 <shachaf> I do like union-find.
06:36:20 <Taneb> Yeah, Prim's and Kruskal's algorithm are both very greedy and get an optimal solution
06:43:40 <shachaf> I am also very greedy, but I don't get an optimal solution. :-(
06:44:14 <Taneb> Perhaps you should try to find a minimal spanning tree
06:44:39 <shachaf> Hmm, I'd rather find a cat.
06:44:56 <shachaf> Well, my neighbor has a cat now, and I interacted with that cat the other day. So perhaps my solution is close to optimal.
06:48:05 <shachaf> Is this channel publicly logged right now?
06:48:26 <shachaf> Oh, I guess it is. Oh well.
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06:55:43 <nakilon> did you neighbor just told you you can forget about the cat?
06:57:21 -!- ic has left (Leaving).
07:08:00 <nakilon> woah, the gist.githubusercontent.com is cached (
07:09:14 <nakilon> it didn't update the /raw/ file until either ~2 minutes passed or I refreshed it in a browser with trailing '?'
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08:16:15 <nakilon> \help
08:16:15 <velik> available commands: rasel; usage help: \help <cmd>
08:16:27 <nakilon> \help rasel
08:16:27 <velik> \rasel <RASEL code>; \rasel -stdin <any char><stdin><same char><RASEL code>; timelimit=60s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
08:16:48 <nakilon> \rasel "!dlroW ,olleH">:?@,Gj
08:16:49 <velik> nakilon, output: "Hello, World!", exit code: 0
08:17:04 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin |1 2 3|& .& .& .@
08:17:05 <velik> nakilon, output: "1 2 3 ", exit code: 0
08:17:31 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 10 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:17:32 <velik> nakilon, output: "23 ", exit code: 0
08:17:38 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:17:40 <velik> nakilon, output: "233168 ", exit code: 0
08:18:10 <nakilon> and this is the project euler 1
08:19:35 <nakilon> used b_jonas idea about one-liners with 'j'
08:20:24 <nakilon> that is <N>\?#j$
08:22:57 <nakilon> oh, btw, I was wrong about the prefix -- it appends with "nickname, output: " -- I'll probably change it
08:24:53 -!- velik has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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08:25:21 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1000 &\:5\?#j$--.@1-::3%\5%/7\?#j$\2a-
08:25:24 <velik> output: "233168 ", exit code: 0
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08:43:34 <nakilon> is there no easy way to link to a specific wiki page section?
08:44:51 <nakilon> oh, the links seem to exist and can be copied from the "Table of contents" but if TOC isn't added to page then I see no way
08:45:06 <nakilon> when you hover on the subtitle it doesn't show up anything
08:47:13 <b_jonas> nakilon: just read the page source to find the anchor names. I do that for a lot of websites that do have anchors or id attributes but not tables of contents linking to them.
08:48:22 <b_jonas> nakilon: or preview an edit where you add __TOC__ at the start to get the anchor name
08:50:30 <nakilon> sounds "easy"
09:00:11 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83243&oldid=81013 * Nakilon * (+445) telling that you can join the IRC channel and ask velik to execute the code
09:00:56 <b_jonas> it's a plain HTML website with proper anchor names for each section. be glad for that. don't you browse any of the modern nonsense web, all dynamic and unusable?
09:03:19 <nakilon> I don't actually )
09:03:36 <nakilon> I use news via RSS and use old.reddit.com
09:03:42 <nakilon> *read news
09:05:10 <nakilon> and I suppose the hover anchor appearance does not need JS, only CSS
09:12:53 <myname> b_jonas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_space
09:15:24 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83244&oldid=83243 * Nakilon * (-3) /* Nth Fibonacci number */
09:26:47 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83245&oldid=83244 * Nakilon * (+3) Undo revision 83244 by [[Special:Contributions/Nakilon|Nakilon]] ([[User talk:Nakilon|talk]])
09:34:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ch44d * New user account
09:46:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83246&oldid=83240 * Ch44d * (+128) Hello, I am Chad!
09:47:02 <b_jonas> perlbot 0B4mraAVZJEF
09:47:03 <perlbot> b_jonas: aKNSSrw8EjpI
09:50:07 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83247&oldid=83245 * Nakilon * (-6) shorter Fibonacci
10:05:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aonodensetsu * New user account
10:08:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Morganbarrett * New user account
10:12:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83248&oldid=83246 * Aonodensetsu * (+194)
10:18:53 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83249&oldid=83248 * Morganbarrett * (+150)
10:19:03 <esolangs> [[User:Morganbarrett]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83250 * Morganbarrett * (+0) Created blank page
10:25:16 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+135) Created page with "[[Category: 2021]] This is a stub of my personal page, hello to all that visited! Esolangs published: While(true){ (currently editing)"
10:25:34 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83252&oldid=83251 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
10:26:12 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83253&oldid=83252 * Aonodensetsu * (+6)
10:42:14 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cypooos * New user account
10:47:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83254&oldid=83249 * Cypooos * (+212) Added my introduction !
10:49:49 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83255&oldid=78526 * Morganbarrett * (+296)
10:51:18 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83256&oldid=83255 * Morganbarrett * (+11)
10:52:36 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+251) Created page with "[[Category:2021]] [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:High-level]] [[Category:Implemented]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Cell-based]] Category:Linear bounded automat..."
10:53:19 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83258&oldid=83209 * Aonodensetsu * (+18)
10:58:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83259&oldid=83257 * Aonodensetsu * (+346)
10:59:02 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83260&oldid=83259 * Aonodensetsu * (+955)
10:59:56 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83261&oldid=83260 * Aonodensetsu * (+20)
11:00:42 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83262&oldid=83261 * Aonodensetsu * (+523)
11:01:50 <nakilon> should we have an "Esoteric IRC bots" category?
11:02:10 <nakilon> I see at least 4 such pages
11:02:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83263&oldid=83262 * Aonodensetsu * (+7)
11:08:41 <fizzie> There's 10 bots (some not currently active) listed on https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal with 7 of them having articles.
11:08:44 -!- dyeplexer has left (Leaving).
11:08:49 <fizzie> Not sure if it needs a category though.
11:09:15 <fizzie> There's a process for categories that's documented somewhere on there, if you want.
11:09:16 <int-e> category:IRC
11:10:00 <int-e> (my feeling is that the IRC bots are too narrow a category. IRC though, might just be broad enough to be worthwhile)
11:10:37 <fizzie> Hmm, that'd be taggable on IRP too.
11:11:46 <fizzie> I don't think it falls under any of the established dimensions of categorization, but there's already a few miscellaneous ones.
11:12:10 <fizzie> In any case, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization is where this discussion should be happening, as a matter of policy. :)
11:12:37 <fizzie> (That talk page could do with some archiving of inactive topics at some point, maybe.)
11:12:43 <esolangs> [[User:Icecream17/Arbitrary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83264&oldid=83101 * Int-e * (+1) pluralize (there is no Language category)
11:13:52 <fizzie> If you're doing spring cleaning, "Category:stupid family" probably shouldn't exist.
11:14:33 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83265&oldid=83263 * Aonodensetsu * (+59)
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11:15:13 <esolangs> [[Birb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83266&oldid=82033 * Int-e * (+2) category: Theoretical -> Unimplemented
11:17:01 <int-e> fizzie: ah, that has 2 members. I only checked the ones with 1 member and no existing category page.
11:17:22 <int-e> Because those are usually typos/miscategorizations
11:17:36 <fizzie> Yeah, I think that one's intentional, but still not good.
11:18:09 <int-e> Yeah I agree.
11:18:12 <fizzie> Out of curiosity, how do those bottom navigation tables on the real wiki work? Are they category-driven, or something else? Because that's the sort of thing you could plausibly have on an IRC bot page...
11:18:18 <int-e> We also have two empty categories with page
11:19:43 <fizzie> (I guess they're just templates maybe.)
11:21:18 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83267&oldid=83265 * Aonodensetsu * (+44)
11:21:24 <nakilon> fungot is in category People, lol
11:21:25 <fungot> nakilon: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of my colleagues, but sooner or later) this must be recognized that in some member states are interpreting the text in this case it concerns a particularly grave and important issue that we have not just government ministers coming from their national administrations. the parliamentary democracy that led the commission to negotiate on the details, we are coming to the same
11:21:41 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83268&oldid=83267 * Aonodensetsu * (+4)
11:22:07 <Taneb> fizzie: hmm, I always assumed they were templates
11:22:32 <fizzie> Taneb: Yeah, there was a tiny "view template" link in a corner, now that I actually looked closely at one.
11:22:41 <Taneb> e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Italy_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest
11:22:41 <fizzie> Templates based on a "Navbox" template, it looked like.
11:23:10 <fizzie> ... the one I was looking was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eurovision_Song_Contest ...
11:23:12 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83269&oldid=83268 * Aonodensetsu * (-21)
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11:23:47 <fizzie> (Getting to sixth place and beating Sweden has been a big thing back home.)
11:23:50 -!- APic has joined.
11:24:41 <Taneb> My partner's Italian and their city is in the running for host next year, so we're going to try to attend in person
11:24:49 <Taneb> I guess it's a recent event that's on both of our minds
11:25:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83270&oldid=82103 * Nakilon * (+452) /* I propose the category "Esoteric IRC bots" */ new section
11:25:10 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83271&oldid=83269 * Aonodensetsu * (+26)
11:25:48 <fizzie> On that note, is there any way of getting those navboxes on m.wikipedia? Because it's been real annoying when browsing 'pedia on the phone.
11:25:59 <fizzie> Especially when you know a page would have one, and it would have exactly the link you need.
11:26:11 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83272&oldid=83253 * Aonodensetsu * (+16)
11:26:23 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83273&oldid=83272 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:26:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83274&oldid=83258 * Aonodensetsu * (+13)
11:27:38 <esolangs> [[User:Aonodensetsu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83275&oldid=83273 * Aonodensetsu * (-7)
11:27:41 <Taneb> "Templates using the navbox (navbox) or nomobile (sidebar) classes are not displayed on the mobile web site of English Wikipedia" :(
11:27:45 <Taneb> (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Navbox )
11:29:06 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83276&oldid=83271 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
11:30:11 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83277&oldid=83276 * Aonodensetsu * (+101)
11:32:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83278&oldid=83277 * Aonodensetsu * (-6)
11:33:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83279&oldid=83278 * Aonodensetsu * (-28)
11:35:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83280&oldid=83279 * Aonodensetsu * (+127)
11:36:11 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83281&oldid=83280 * Aonodensetsu * (+177)
11:36:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83282&oldid=83281 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:36:56 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83283&oldid=83282 * Aonodensetsu * (-4)
11:37:52 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83284&oldid=83283 * Aonodensetsu * (+12)
11:38:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83285&oldid=83284 * Aonodensetsu * (+0)
11:38:30 <esolangs> [[DotSnap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83286&oldid=83219 * Nooder Coob * (-1094) Blanked the page
11:39:08 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83287&oldid=83285 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
11:39:42 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83288&oldid=83287 * Aonodensetsu * (-6)
11:43:57 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83289&oldid=83288 * Aonodensetsu * (+2475)
11:45:09 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83290&oldid=83289 * Aonodensetsu * (+46)
11:46:32 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83291&oldid=83290 * Aonodensetsu * (+79)
11:46:51 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83292&oldid=83291 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How to define a function? */
11:47:02 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83293&oldid=83292 * Aonodensetsu * (+0) /* How to define a function? */
11:48:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83294&oldid=83293 * Aonodensetsu * (-36) /* Naming of functions */
11:48:46 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83295&oldid=83294 * Aonodensetsu * (-3) /* Naming of functions */
11:49:25 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83296&oldid=83295 * Aonodensetsu * (+64) /* Naming of functions */
11:49:49 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83297&oldid=83296 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Undefined functions */
11:49:58 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83298&oldid=83297 * Aonodensetsu * (-22) /* Why CALL? */
11:50:37 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83299&oldid=83298 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* Why LOOK? */
11:50:56 <int-e> sigh, microedits
11:52:09 <nakilon> that's a while(true)
11:52:27 <int-e> fizzie: Germany, meanwhile, still hasn't managed to get that coveted last place... hard to do when your competitor gets a perfect score.
11:52:50 <nakilon> oh that's a guy with [Category: 2021]
11:53:09 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83300&oldid=83299 * Aonodensetsu * (+334) /* Why LOOK? */
11:53:28 <fizzie> int-e: The BBC narration during the vote-counting was a bit painful to listen to.
11:53:41 <int-e> I won't listen to it then :)
11:54:06 <int-e> (if it can even be found... I suppose it can)
11:54:38 <fizzie> I'm sure it's in the "iPlayer" (BBC's online thing), though I guess it might be geo-restricted.
11:54:42 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83301&oldid=83300 * Aonodensetsu * (+11) /* Why LOOK? */
11:54:50 <fizzie> Especially the part where "we" (I don't know which country is "we" at this point) got 0 from the public vote as well.
11:55:24 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83302&oldid=83301 * Aonodensetsu * (+31) /* Conditional jumps? */
11:55:26 <int-e> fizzie: 0 is an achievement: https://nitter.fdn.fr/ariadneconill/status/1396035169828675585#m
11:56:47 <fizzie> I watched the bad-bitrate iPlayer stream because I keep forgetting the cheap DVB stick I have for RTL-SDR reasons can actually do it's nominal job too.
11:56:58 <fizzie> Not sure if the subjective quality of DVB-T is any better though.
11:57:07 <nakilon> that website makes an awful google translate job
11:57:35 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83303&oldid=83302 * Aonodensetsu * (+13) /* Conditional jumps? */
11:57:54 <int-e> nakilon: huh?
11:58:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83304&oldid=83303 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* What can we do with this? */
11:58:13 <nakilon> int-e it detects my location and writes in Russian
11:58:32 <nakilon> the mail-tester.com
11:58:36 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83305&oldid=83304 * Aonodensetsu * (-72) /* What can we do with this? */
11:58:41 <int-e> nakilon: ah, nasty. it's english for me... maybe it's parsing the HTTP language preferences?
11:59:18 <int-e> (if it was geo location based, it would be german for me)
11:59:48 <nakilon> maybe browser language, yeah
11:59:52 <int-e> it would also be in contradiction to what nitter is supposed to be... non-JS, non-tracking.
12:00:25 <nakilon> locale is in my request headers
12:01:18 <int-e> nakilon: you can replace the nitter.fdn.fr by twitter.com
12:02:16 <nakilon> I mean the https://www.mail-tester.com/test-kxlo1dgf7 link
12:03:06 <nakilon> nitter is in eng for me
12:04:48 <int-e> nakilon: Oh. Hmm. But that was in english too when I tried.
12:05:02 <int-e> But I withdraw the rest of the remarks then
12:05:08 <nakilon> ..D
12:06:12 <int-e> I did manage to get a 0.7 score on first try though... HELO mail didn't work out well: no reverse DNS, and failed SPF check, both worth -4 points each.
12:06:22 <nakilon> Accept-Language: ru,en-US;q=0.9,en;q=0.8,uk;q=0.7
12:07:00 <int-e> Then -1 for not doing DKIM, and -0.3 because my test mail looked a bit like spam. Fun :)
12:07:17 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83306&oldid=83305 * Aonodensetsu * (+93)
12:07:52 <nakilon> they are doing a clever thing
12:08:20 <nakilon> they make you send an email to the address that they associate with your browser cookies/fingerprint
12:08:31 <int-e> yes, I know
12:08:33 <nakilon> basically deanon
12:09:44 <fizzie> I should send one of those esolangs.org wiki password recovery emails there, I'm sure it'd score quite badly too.
12:10:21 <int-e> nakilon: (my) cookies are ephemeral at least :P
12:11:14 <nakilon> and the field is empty if you curl
12:11:24 <int-e> but mostly... I'm not really expecting all that much privacy from browsing the web.
12:11:43 <int-e> nakilon: yes, they had all opportunities for fingerprinting the browser that they need
12:11:49 * int-e shrugs
12:12:11 <int-e> after the third test, they ask for payment, so there's some hope that *that* is their primary business model
12:12:34 <int-e> (it's rate limited, 3 free tests per day)
12:12:45 <nakilon> my ISP recently mailed everyone with a link to a service to "test your password"
12:13:00 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83307&oldid=83306 * Aonodensetsu * (-13)
12:13:05 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83308&oldid=83307 * Aonodensetsu * (-34)
12:13:09 <int-e> ugh, was that genuine or spam?
12:13:23 <int-e> . o O ( I test my password every time I log in! )
12:13:35 <nakilon> idk, some another website that "check if your password is leaked"
12:14:12 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83309&oldid=83308 * Aonodensetsu * (+72) /* Implementation */
12:14:20 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83310&oldid=83309 * Aonodensetsu * (+1) /* External resources */
12:14:33 <int-e> > 48/60 -- 80% is quite impressive
12:14:35 <lambdabot> 0.8
12:15:06 <nakilon> I live in a totally new building where there is only one monopolist ISP so they are free to have higher internet price and send absolute trash emails
12:15:37 <int-e> (users here vs. users there, so take that % with a lot of salt)
12:16:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83311&oldid=83310 * Aonodensetsu * (+42) /* External resources */
12:16:33 <int-e> fun :-/
12:17:19 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83312&oldid=83311 * Aonodensetsu * (-96) /* External resources */
12:17:27 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83313&oldid=83312 * Aonodensetsu * (-2) /* External resources */
12:17:41 <nakilon> usual 100 mbit/s internet in Moscow costs $6, here it's almost $8
12:19:58 <nakilon> and sometimes it routes weirdly, like there were several months of connecting to Finland game servers via France resulting in 3 times higher ping
12:20:28 <nakilon> support said "we can't do anything about this, the internet is magic beyond our responsibilities"
12:41:52 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83314&oldid=83313 * Aonodensetsu * (-54) /* Why LOOK? */
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12:53:13 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83315&oldid=83314 * Aonodensetsu * (+2)
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13:20:49 <Deewiant> As all the discussion is here now perhaps the /topic on freenode should be updated to point thisaway?
13:22:02 <cd> Deewiant: the admins over there literally made that against the rules
13:22:11 <cd> so best we can do is prod people over the bridge
13:22:33 <Deewiant> Ah, wonderful
13:31:40 <fizzie> Yeah, I read about that ##hntop thing.
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13:32:47 <fizzie> I don't know if I'd describe it as "against the rules", the ("draft") policy just says approximately that channels "that have moved" can be claimed by anyone.
13:33:29 <fizzie> I'd maybe still be a bit wary about putting something in topic specifically, maybe that's how they look for victims.
13:34:31 <fizzie> We could make it official on the wiki, I was kind of considering doing that once our proper community registration goes through. (Still no reply, but I imagine there's quite a queue. Our ticket number is in the 500-600 range.)
13:39:38 <int-e> Well, rules...
13:40:38 <int-e> I think we should add a reference to the topic anyway; if Freenode takes over the channel for that so be it.
13:40:46 <cd> We had ticket #44 and it took quite a while
13:41:11 <cd> int-e: why risk fragmenting the community like that. They’d likely kickban the bridge bot too
13:41:21 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it's also against the rules ("inappropriate advertising") to have "unused channels for the purpose of polluting the channel list results".
13:41:29 <int-e> because the bridge will stop being useful
13:41:48 <int-e> brctl: ignore int-e
13:41:48 <esolangs> brctl: ignoring
13:42:30 <int-e> brctl: unignore int-e
13:42:30 <esolangs> brctl: unignoring
13:42:38 <fizzie> /!\ ;) Re the policy changes: https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/compare/e48c814...4210b31
13:42:42 <int-e> (a bit too early for ignores, but I will do that eventually.
13:42:51 <int-e> fizzie: /!\ yeah I knew about that :)
13:43:41 <int-e> fizzie: And I mean both the "/!\" and the changes.
13:46:17 <int-e> fizzie: Honestly that one is a bit more understandable. The rule lawyer in me suggests +s
13:50:07 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+6373) Created the page
13:51:03 <fizzie> I wonder how many people have found the channel by listing, anyway. Probably not a huge fraction.
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13:57:40 <nakilon> I have a feel that "random read and push" is less powerful than "random write and pop"
14:00:47 <nakilon> without random write once the task becomes complex enough (involves several variables) it makes RASEL stack grow infinitely, like the Fibonacci[n] case does in my example
14:01:39 <nakilon> or am I missing some solution
14:15:53 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83317&oldid=83316 * Cypooos * (+155) Correcting some mistakes
14:16:38 <nakilon> or should I finally stop resisting and add random write to RASEL
14:17:34 <int-e> fizzie: I don't recall whether it was one of the (now defunct) mailing lists, or a discussion elsewhere on IRC...
14:17:41 <int-e> but probably not the wiki
14:23:07 <nakilon> I could make the "reverse N top elements on stack" command that can be used as both random read and write
14:23:14 <nakilon> and I feel like I saw some language with it
14:25:14 <Taneb> nakilon: Piet has something a bit like that
14:26:08 <nakilon> actually wiki search re veal a plenty of such
14:28:25 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83318&oldid=83317 * Cypooos * (+168) Added the Categories
14:30:28 <nakilon> hmmm maybe the assumption that "reverse N top elements" can be used for random read and write was too fast
14:30:51 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> We could make it official on the wiki" => if you do that, also switch over what the logs default to on your logs web interface, because I feel like that's part of what makes it official
14:31:20 <nakilon> once you do the reverse you lose the access to all the top values that you were working with
14:33:35 <Taneb> fizzie: queue a couple of days ago was 220 project registrations in the backlog https://twitter.com/liberachat/status/1396029243101007873
14:38:09 <esolangs> [[BALAE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83319&oldid=82560 * WallGraffiti * (+505) Added examples + corrected descriptions of "{" and "}" operators.
14:38:28 <nakilon> okay, I imagine the read(N) now: reverse(N), dup, reverse(N+1), reverse(N-1), reverse(N) -- 5 operations, can it be shorter?
14:39:15 <b_jonas> eventually we will have to speed up redirecting everyone by just making the freenode channel invite only and kicking everyone, but for now it probalby helps more if people see a bridge
14:39:29 <b_jonas> not everyone is on irc every day, there are new people who won't have heard of the freenode drama for years
14:42:50 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83320&oldid=83318 * Cypooos * (+2) Correcting mistakes
14:43:37 <fizzie> The new logs web interface -- https://logs.esolangs.org/ -- doesn't really default to either. I was going to make https://esolangs.org/logs/... URLs to forward to the freenode logs to keep old permalinks working, but the plain /logs/ path with no file specified I could point arbitrarily.
14:43:49 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83321&oldid=83320 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-8) /* Resources */ Fix link
14:43:50 <fizzie> This would also be probably the best chance to change the permalink syntax not require anchor names to be case-sensitive, if we want to. IIRC, the spec says they *are* case-sensitive, but (pre-Edge?) IE didn't treat them as such, so `#la` was the same as `#lA`. But maybe that's no longer so relevant.
14:44:15 <fizzie> Base 62 is a little more compact than base 36 would be.
14:47:54 <nakilon> now write(N,top): rotate(N), rotate(N+1), swap, pop, rotate(N) -- 5 operations too
14:48:04 <nakilon> and N should be static in both cases
14:48:10 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83322&oldid=83315 * Aonodensetsu * (+291)
14:48:20 <nakilon> (that's the limitation I don't like)
14:48:40 <b_jonas> oh, https://logs.esolangs.org/ is the new interface? ok
14:48:56 <nakilon> wait, odd number of rotations, heh, missed something
14:49:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: pre-edge IE is dying out though, isn't it?
14:50:02 <esolangs> [[Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83323&oldid=83321 * Cypooos * (+0) Correcting some mistakes
14:50:54 <b_jonas> fizzie: there doesn't seem to be an easy link from https://esolangs.org/logs/all.html back to the top or to the other channel's logs
14:51:46 <fizzie> Re pre-Edge IE, probably. I feel like oerjan's the only one who ever noticed those links didn't work on some browser.
14:53:15 <int-e> nakilon: write is only 3 steps, rotate(N+1), pop, rotate(N-1)
14:53:17 <fizzie> I've not made any changes to the version running at /logs/ so it won't know the other channel exists. As for getting back to the top, yeah; though logs/ is the same page as logs/YYYY.html of the current year, so clicking on the year gives you the same view.
14:53:52 <fizzie> In the new thing, I can do some changes to integrate them a little better. Haven't yet, though.
14:55:53 <fizzie> What I *have* changed so far is to put the top announcement and the bottom about text into the configuration file rather than a `constexpr char[]` variable, so I can change them without recompiling. ;)
14:56:16 <fizzie> (And of course the ability to serve from more than one root.)
14:56:19 <nakilon> int-e true
15:03:44 -!- oren has joined.
15:05:38 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83324&oldid=83322 * Aonodensetsu * (+3) /* How do you know this is Turing-complete? */
15:06:02 <nakilon> so the bad thing is that N has too be static or you'll lose it immediately on the first rotate, so I'm now thinking about another operation instead -- swap(N) that swaps the top element with the Nth one
15:06:57 <nakilon> the write(N) then is trivial, but read(N) is complex and as far as I can imagine relies on write(N)
15:11:32 <nakilon> so assuming the stack is [... 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, X, N] to put the X to Nth position under it would be the: swapn, pop
15:12:22 <esolangs> [[While(true)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83325&oldid=83324 * Aonodensetsu