←2021-05 2021-06 2021-07→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-06-01
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00:12:49 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83774&oldid=83772 * Aspwil * (+549)
00:17:57 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83775&oldid=83757 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Truth machine */
00:18:08 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83776&oldid=83775 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Hello World */
00:18:18 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83777&oldid=83776 * Aspwil * (-13) /* Add 2 numbers */
00:18:31 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83778&oldid=83777 * Aspwil * (-12) /* Writing Code */
00:18:37 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83779&oldid=83778 * Aspwil * (-1) /* Writing Code */
00:19:06 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83780&oldid=83779 * Aspwil * (-40) /* First Method: Point */
00:19:20 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83781&oldid=83780 * Aspwil * (-27) /* Second Method: Vector List */
00:19:20 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83782&oldid=83535 * JaydenIrwin * (-27) removed self-modifing category
00:20:23 <esolangs> [[SF Code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83783&oldid=83782 * JaydenIrwin * (+27) Undo revision 83782 by [[Special:Contributions/JaydenIrwin|JaydenIrwin]] ([[User talk:JaydenIrwin|talk]])
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00:34:34 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83784&oldid=83774 * Doridian * (+28) Grammar fixes, formatting fixes
00:52:54 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83785&oldid=83784 * Aspwil * (+786) /* An actual dictionary */
00:53:55 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83786&oldid=83785 * Aspwil * (-19) /* Use */
02:07:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83787&oldid=83739 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+157) /* OK */
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02:33:30 <Guest46> Hello
02:33:48 <Guest46> I am making an esolang, but need help making a compiler
02:34:07 <int-e> hm
02:34:21 <Guest46> I really want it in python.
02:34:24 <Guest46> brctl: help ignore
02:34:24 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
02:34:43 <Guest46> Here are the docs : https://bluefalconhd.github.io/Dragynslash/docs
02:35:06 <Guest46> Python is my most knowlegable langauge.
02:36:26 <Guest46> And the esolang is based off of Asciidots
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02:37:54 <BlueFalconHD> Welp im back
02:37:59 <BlueFalconHD> accidentally reloaded
02:38:07 <BlueFalconHD> i am the Guest45 dude
02:38:15 <BlueFalconHD> making this https://bluefalconhd.github.io/Dragynslash/docs
02:38:54 <BlueFalconHD> I need help with a compiler, as I hav no idea how to compile a 2d lanaguge.
02:39:32 <BlueFalconHD> I really want it to be in python, and not use external packages except for built in ones like time and system.
02:39:52 <BlueFalconHD> brctl: help ignore
02:39:52 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
02:40:36 <BlueFalconHD> hello? anyone here?
02:40:58 <int-e> brctl: ignored
02:40:58 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf
02:41:01 <cd> BlueFalconHD: This is IRC, do be patient, people may take a while to respond.
02:41:04 <cd> Also: Why compile
02:41:22 <BlueFalconHD> Because it is a self made esolang.
02:41:28 <cd> why not interpret it
02:41:30 <BlueFalconHD> I need a compiler for output.
02:41:32 <int-e> BlueFalconHD: you have to tell it to ignore you specifically, that's the brctl: ignore [net/]nick syntax
02:41:42 <BlueFalconHD> oh
02:41:43 <int-e> it's probably just an interpreter
02:41:47 <BlueFalconHD> ok
02:41:57 <BlueFalconHD> well then I need help making an interpreter.
02:42:16 <BlueFalconHD> if any of you use github, here is the repo: https://github.com/BlueFalconHD/Dragynslash
02:42:17 <int-e> Since this is vaguely befunge-like I'd look for a befunge interpreter in Python and use that as inspiration.
02:42:23 <BlueFalconHD> ok
02:43:00 <BlueFalconHD> Then adapt the code?
02:43:53 <int-e> Well, maybe try to understand it, then write your own?
02:44:06 <cd> as for where to start, a few hints: first you'll want to arrange the input file onto a 2D grid, start with that; then work on moving an "instruction pointer" around the grid, obeying direction changing instructions
02:44:16 <cd> from there, work on supporting each operation one by one
02:44:27 <cd> start with the easy ones, more important ones first
02:44:50 <int-e> The thing is, adapting code that you don't understand is likely to just not work. And when you do understand it, you can write your own and be sure of all the features it has (excluding bugs).
02:44:55 <cd> ^
02:45:39 <BlueFalconHD> Ok thanks.
02:45:52 <BlueFalconHD> If you use github, you can help out lol
02:45:57 <BlueFalconHD> I suck at python
02:46:05 <BlueFalconHD> but it is my best langauge
02:46:06 <cd> my first esolang interpreters sucked, but i learned a lot more by writing it myself than I did adapting other code
02:46:28 * cd somehow still remembers learning about the jank behavior of \ in C
02:46:48 <cd> \\ doc comment blah blah \
02:47:02 <cd> i++; \\ oops, because of \ this is still a comment
02:47:03 <BlueFalconHD> lol
02:47:04 <cd> or was it /
02:47:11 * cd forgets
02:47:24 <cd> it was \
02:47:46 <BlueFalconHD> Are you speaking is js
02:47:50 <BlueFalconHD> gtg
02:49:17 <int-e> cd: the line comments are //, the ordinary comments are /* */
02:49:33 <cd> int-e, yes, i'm talking about the special behavior of \ at the end of a line
02:49:50 <int-e> ah.
02:50:03 <cd> but yes i used the wrong symbol for comments
02:50:04 <cd> how did i do that
02:50:07 <int-e> doesn't work for comments :)
02:50:08 <cd> i must be too tired
02:50:43 <cd> i literally use C-like languages constantly how'd i make that mistake lol
02:52:01 <int-e> cd: so apparently I never really ran into that, apart from knowing that // comments inside macros don't work.
02:52:23 <cd> i ran into it only because i was commenting an esolang interp where \ was a command
02:52:40 <cd> so \ ended up at the end of a line, and broke the implementation silently
02:52:41 <cd> >:I
02:53:07 <int-e> Always write full sentences. Problem solved.
02:53:38 <cd> i think i made that mistake 5-6yr ago now
02:53:42 <cd> was a long time ago
02:54:02 <cd> `help hackeso, help me figure out when i first showed up in the channel pls
02:54:08 <HackEso> ​`hackeso, help me figure out when i first showed up in the channel pls? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:54:11 * int-e is just bantering at this point.
02:54:13 <cd> `help
02:54:13 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
02:55:22 <cd> sometime late 2016, huh. yep almost 5yr ago now
02:56:05 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
02:56:11 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
02:56:51 <cd> ..jeeez have i really been here 5yr now
02:56:55 <cd> huh
02:56:59 <int-e> `? imode
02:57:01 <HackEso> imode is an Innovative Multicomponent Drug Designer, afflicted by a severe case of the UPPERs.
02:58:44 <Sgeo> `? sgeo
02:58:46 <HackEso> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
02:59:21 <Sgeo> `? sgeolang
02:59:23 <HackEso> Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place.
03:00:08 <int-e> cd: AIUI, HackEso still has a presence on freenode.
03:00:41 <cd> int-e: Yea but I don't :P
03:01:14 <esolangs> <iuhi7g> `? password
03:01:16 <esolangs> <HackEso> The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
03:07:27 * nakilon never adapts others' code
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05:39:46 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83788&oldid=83786 * Aspwil * (+180) /* Interpreter */
06:20:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Airline food]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83789 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+253) Polyglot
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07:09:52 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83790&oldid=83787 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+57)
07:12:06 <esolangs> [[Airline food]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83791&oldid=82866 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+141)
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07:44:44 <b_jonas> oh yeah, password change. I forgot about that.
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08:17:53 <esolangs> [[Pain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83792&oldid=82994 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+2) Added a full stop and a line break near the top of the page.
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10:43:19 <wib_jonas> zzo38: multi-colored color indicators shown as multiple normal-sized disks only slightly overlapping would be nicer and easier to read, but indeed would be hard to fit to Nicol Bolas, the Arisen's type line now that the typeline shows "Legendary". perhaps it could only be reprinted in sets with narrower expansion symbols, not in core sets.
10:47:14 <wib_jonas> "<int-e> The thing is, adapting code that you don't understand is likely to just not work." then why is copying huge blocks of boilerplate from StackOverflow stereotypically popular among code monkeys?
11:12:58 <int-e> because it's boilerplate?
11:13:35 <int-e> also.. the result stereotypically only almost always works.
11:13:52 <Taneb> Also there's reasons why code monkeys remain code monkeys
11:14:11 <int-e> ook.
11:15:12 <int-e> wib_jonas: FWIW, even though I spoke in general, the remark was colored by context; interpreters aren't really the kind of code where you expect to copy last chunks from another interpreter and expect it to fit well
11:15:34 <int-e> last? large.
11:15:48 * int-e bonks head on table a few times to see if that fixes it.
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11:27:37 <fizzie> Fixes the table?
11:29:39 <Taneb> :t fix head
11:29:40 <lambdabot> error:
11:29:40 <lambdabot> • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ [a]
11:29:40 <lambdabot> Expected type: a -> a
11:30:30 <fizzie> fungot: Do you even have a head?
11:30:30 <fungot> fizzie: the king awaits. you saved our queen? you see, the mammon machine! nya ha! what losers! you can walk your way across but that's the plan, so he was banished from zeal. a great disaster in zeal somehow threw me into this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind? the mystics supposedly despise you! i'm leaving!
11:30:44 <Taneb> ^style
11:30:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
11:31:03 <fizzie> You can tell from all the references to Zeal.
11:31:42 <Taneb> Chrono Trigger?
11:31:47 <fizzie> Yep.
11:32:07 <fizzie> There was a copy of "the script" at one of those gamefaqsy kind of places, that's what it's trained on.
11:32:40 <fizzie> fungot: Is he really a tricycle?
11:32:40 <fungot> fizzie: you! take! we find! spekkio. the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
11:32:52 <fizzie> Dramatric.
11:33:00 <fizzie> s/tr/t/
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12:14:46 <FireFly> fungot!
12:14:46 <fungot> FireFly: must think of a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away!
12:17:09 <fizzie> Sound advice.
12:17:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bubbles]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83793&oldid=67738 * Monochromeninja * (+1109) /* Ideas */ new section
12:19:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83794&oldid=83793 * Monochromeninja * (+43) Sorry! I forgot to add my signature
12:21:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83795&oldid=83790 * Monochromeninja * (+283) signature check
12:21:32 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83796&oldid=83795 * Monochromeninja * (+2) signature check
12:22:04 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bubbles]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83797&oldid=83794 * Monochromeninja * (+81) sorry i messed up my signature AGAIN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
12:23:02 <FireFly> indeed
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12:31:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83798&oldid=83796 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+42) No include
12:31:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83799&oldid=83798 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2)
12:33:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83800&oldid=82646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+133) ?
12:33:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83801&oldid=83800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-24) -
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12:37:33 <river> ~200 new official baba is you levels
12:37:36 <river> coming soon, this month probably
12:38:25 <Taneb> I should probably solve the first lot, then
12:39:26 <river> yes it's a good game!
12:39:31 <river> I used hints near the end
12:39:37 <river> and some hints at the beginning too
12:44:07 <Taneb> I've been trying to do it without hints but I don't tend to be very good at puzzles
12:44:16 <Taneb> And then I put it down and forget everything I've learnt
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12:52:49 <river> I think that it is hard enough that it's more fun to occasionally used hints after giving a level a really solid try
12:53:12 <river> it just depends on whether you're still enjoying it or not
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13:19:59 <wib_jonas> does Baba is You have a secret secret secret ending, or only a secret secret ending? I get confused about which games have what.
13:21:17 <river> I think it has only got two levels of secret ending
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13:23:11 <BlueFalconHD> I have question. How do I get a esolang on the wiki when I finish making it?
13:24:11 <Taneb> You make an article for it
13:24:26 <BlueFalconHD> Are there guidlines ect.
13:24:55 <river> just write it up well
13:25:00 <BlueFalconHD> Ok
13:25:03 <BlueFalconHD> cool
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14:21:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Pie]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83802 * Monochromeninja * (+1368) made
14:22:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qbit * New user account
14:25:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83803&oldid=83762 * Qbit * (+157) /* Introductions */
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14:35:06 <esolangs> [[User:VilgotanL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83804&oldid=83682 * VilgotanL * (+334) add github links
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16:09:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ResU * New user account
16:15:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83805&oldid=83803 * ResU * (+143)
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16:33:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:++Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83806 * Monochromeninja * (+211) created and asked meaning
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17:17:33 <nakilon> Github is so lame they are not incapable to implement a CI to keep a green master in a repo with 500 contributors
17:18:05 <nakilon> https://github.com/github/explore/commits/main
17:20:26 <nakilon> to pretend in from of their own managers or whatever that they have CI they made a ./script/cibuild but still break the Github Action build
17:21:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:Truttle1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83807&oldid=83237 * UltimateProGrammer * (+238) appreciation!
17:21:55 <nakilon> why am I then being surprised my local folks if such as Github make this a quality standard
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17:32:12 <nakilon> I feel like thelounge is having some bad time on authing on libera with sasl certificate
17:32:20 <nakilon> switched to username+password
17:32:22 <nakilon> anyway
17:32:52 <nakilon> dude presses the pull request approval BEFORE asking to rebase; and calling the rebase a "Update branch" -- I even checked if it's maybe their term for that but nope, it's "Fetch upstream"
17:33:59 <nakilon> then I checked who is that and it's an asian girl; previous time when I had a deal with Github stuff it was an amazing idiocy about rewriting someone's library with my library source code that I mentioned before -- that time it was some black dude
17:36:26 <nakilon> so I assume they are hiring based on the "need of diversity" rather on checking if people are competent
17:50:40 <keegan> i think that's an unfair assumption to make purely from your experience
17:51:02 <keegan> but also github is known for trying too hard to be woke (overcorrecting for an earlier period of their corporate culture) so it may be true anyway
17:52:42 <keegan> these things can get a bit cringe
17:53:28 <keegan> one time i was on an airplane and the guy next to me noticed I was trans and started going on and on about how woke his company is, and how he made everyone put their pronouns in their email signature and stuff like that, and i should come work for him, while saying almost nothing about what the company actually does or why i would be a good fit
17:55:00 <keegan> https://thehardtimes.net/culture/trans-person-crosses-street-avoid-overly-supportive-liberals/
17:59:00 <esolangs> [[Pie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83808&oldid=78988 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+131) /* Instructions */ Computational class (thanks to Monochromeninja)
18:02:44 <nakilon> I love how they say "we should care about everyone not only about ourselves" in their guidelines
18:03:06 <nakilon> and at the same time they FORCE-changed the default repo branch name for all the users
18:05:59 <esolangs> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Rewriting Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83809&oldid=74118 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-141) Please delete
18:06:40 <esolangs> [[PythonshellDebugwindow/Vandevelo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83810&oldid=79353 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-223) This page should be deleted
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18:10:38 <nakilon> their build failed even after my rebase, lol
18:12:53 <keegan> any kind of woke guidelines or code of conduct should not be taken at face value. they are political documents meant to support a particular ideology
18:13:08 <keegan> the same people who promote these documents openly gloat about not following their own rules
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18:18:21 <keegan> i'm happy that it's not my problem anymore
18:18:44 <nakilon> they changed my personal preference about the default branch name without notifying me and I've lost' multiple hours guessing why things don't work; why do they think I need it at all? what if I love the "master" branch name? what if also name by dev branch "slave" and it's my kink? they used black people as slaves for centuries in US but we didn't
18:18:44 <nakilon> in Russia -- why should I be affected? it's not my problem...
18:20:38 <keegan> countries besides the USA exist?? whoa
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18:22:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cerberus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83811 * Monochromeninja * (+1412) Created page with "I wrote an interpreter for this. It has a wimpmode too: [https://tio.run/##nVVNb9s4ED2bv2KqPVRqJNVOFj0YdYGiwKI@dFOgvQlCQUu0zUYiBZJCEhT57dkZUrJlZYsF1jYscfjm8c0Hye7RHbW6eY6iiG1B..."
18:22:46 <cd> this is #esolangs, not #politics
18:23:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cerberus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83812&oldid=83811 * Monochromeninja * (+106) updated my post
18:24:48 <zzo38> What I read, they allow you to change the default branch names individually per project and rename them. But if they did like you described, then perhaps it is too confusing what they did
18:30:09 <zzo38> (Which names are appropriate might depend on the project. Naming a branch "slave" is unlikely to be appropriate for most projects, but I cannot predict everything, of course.) (When you are mirroring a repository with another system, it would help to use the same branch names as the original rather than changing them to "main" or "master" (unless they already are), I think.)
18:33:31 <keegan> maybe we should also get rid of the word "robot" since it derives from a slavic word for "slave" / "serf"
18:34:20 <keegan> also "servo"
18:34:58 <nakilon> the "server" word is bad too?
18:35:11 <nakilon> should it be "partner" or something
18:35:39 <sknebel> still off-topic for #esolangs
18:37:09 <zzo38> I think is not the good idea to get rid of the words; it doesn't help.
18:46:12 <arseniiv> <wib_jonas> does Baba is You have a secret secret secret ending, or only a secret secret ending? I get confused about which games have what. => oh I hope they aren’t disjoint and I wouldn’t need to replay it all from scratch to get another ending
18:46:25 <arseniiv> not that I’m close (I’m not)
18:47:10 <keegan> that is a fun game
18:47:16 <keegan> maybe i should play it some more
18:47:37 <keegan> i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here
18:47:52 <arseniiv> ++
18:48:17 <arseniiv> I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D
18:48:27 <arseniiv> or at least a third
18:50:56 <zzo38> I think probably none of the computer games I like to play are the ones mentioned here
18:51:25 <arseniiv> I was shocked when I learned today that blur filter in SVG is not a special attribute of a group or primitive, but a filter among other filters. Didn’t suspect that as Inkscape treats it a bit special and I get why — it’s very useful compared to many other filters which would often be more useful as part of a composite filter chain
18:51:52 <arseniiv> zzo38: but you mentioned them yourself so technically they are :)
19:00:31 <zzo38> arseniiv: Yes, after I left the room I thought of that, yes they are mentioned on the IRC, even if I am the only one who did (well, at least some of them, not necessarily all of them are mentioned)
19:06:45 <zzo38> Some games I wrote by myself, although not all of them. I don't know if you liked any of the same ones or not
19:15:32 <river> The pokedex number is actually the old pokedex number
19:15:45 <river> now there is a national pokedex number which is sometimes different
19:16:35 <river> there may be a regional pokedex for each region with its own numbering
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19:49:34 <nakilon> github/explore available issue labels: bug, enhancement, duplicate, invalid, question, help wanted, wont fix, india
19:50:12 <nakilon> no joke https://i.imgur.com/bhhMCd1.png
19:52:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Tiangou]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83813 * Monochromeninja * (+777) Created page with "I wrote an interpreter for this: [https://tio.run/##nZM9b9swEIZn81ectYROLLdGNyMKEGTSUGToaHi4iOeIsUSyJIW4KPrb3ZPsQgrdLp1EnZ573/ug3I9YW/PllGWZKEGbSN55iqQg1gTlp2fAAIqw0eYV3nWs4fH..."
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20:13:17 <zzo38> What is the new pokedex number?
20:24:12 <river> national pokedex number
20:24:27 <river> the national pokedex has a unique number for all pokemon of all generations
20:24:42 <river> the regional pokedex has smaller numbers but only assigned to local pokemon
20:25:17 <zzo38> Yes, I know of the pokedex numbers, but you mentioned a old and new pokedex numbers; what is the difference?
20:27:04 <river> The first divergence is national pokedex number #152 Chikorita
20:27:14 <river> in the Johto region pokedex this is pokemon #1
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20:28:57 <zzo38> Yes, although I only use the global numbers myself, and the pokemon mahjong that I made up only uses the global numbers.
20:29:33 <river> what about regional pokemahjong which only uses regional pokemon?
20:30:12 <zzo38> You could play it that way too if you wanted to I suppose, although I have not thought of that, but you are correct.
20:32:28 <zzo38> Starting the game requires knowing the number of generations, but you could use a variant rule for the regional variant, such as treat it as one generation for the rules that care about that.
20:34:00 <zzo38> There are two kind of sequences possible, being numeric sequences and evolution sequences. When it is generation I only, all evolution sequences are also numeric sequences; with more generations, it might not be. (A sequence in mahjong must consist of three cards, so an evolution sequence cannot be made with Eevee. Its evolution is still relevant, but not for making sequences.)
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20:50:15 <zzo38> Do you like pokemon mahjong game?
20:53:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Spidey Zac * New user account
20:58:58 <river> i have never tried it
20:59:07 <river> i don't play mahjong
20:59:15 <river> I like it though
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22:10:26 <salpynx> I have liked mahjong and pokemon separately in the past.
22:10:46 <salpynx> 🀣 hurt itself in its confusion.
22:11:03 <salpynx> `unidecode 🀣
22:11:04 <HackEso> ​[U+1F023 MAHJONG TILE ORCHID]
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22:36:47 <zzo38> So do I, but that doesn't necessary mean you can't play pokemon mahjong too.
22:43:49 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialCraftCGame]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83814 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+111) Created page with "The creator of several games ''(some unfinished)'' and an esoteric programming language called '''Nevermind'''."
23:01:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Maximxls * New user account
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23:05:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83815&oldid=83805 * Maximxls * (+171) /* Introductions */
23:09:59 <esolangs> [[LongDick]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83816&oldid=81154 * Maximxls * (+67)
23:28:10 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83817&oldid=83788 * Aspwil * (+288)
23:36:24 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83818&oldid=83781 * Aspwil * (+67)
23:40:37 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83819&oldid=83817 * Aspwil * (+74)
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2021-06-02
00:01:45 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83820 * ResU * (+1335) Created page with "'''AEWNN''' (or '''An esolang with no name''') is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. ==Variables== There are two types of variables: letter variables and VariablesWi..."
00:06:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83821&oldid=41030 * Monochromeninja * (+1824) /* Python interpreter */ new section
00:14:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83822&oldid=57083 * Monochromeninja * (+445) /* Sign checking */ new section
00:18:33 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83823&oldid=83820 * ResU * (+6)
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00:23:53 <zzo38> A reason needing writing better web browser software is that existing software is like http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/user-friendly.html (It is one thing, not all of them, of course)
00:25:09 <nakilon> Macintrash lol
00:32:18 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83824 * ResU * (+68) Created page with "My esolangs: [[AEWNN]] (planned to make more esolangs in the future)"
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00:37:20 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83825&oldid=83824 * ResU * (+12)
00:38:08 <BlueFalconHD> ?
00:38:11 <BlueFalconHD> what?
00:51:49 <fizzie> I agree, those should be unordered-list bullet points instead.
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01:28:52 <nakilon> some trivial things you want to make for years but are lazy for no reason
01:34:21 <nakilon> $ ruby upload.rb empty_file
01:34:21 <nakilon> uploading as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
01:34:21 <nakilon> $ ruby upload.rb empty_file
01:34:21 <nakilon> file exists as http://md5.nakilon.pro/d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
01:35:04 <nakilon> finally I made a bucket to store arbitrary files under their md5
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01:35:31 <nakilon> sure it loses the content-type but why would you download something without knowing what it is?..
01:40:02 <keegan> why would you use md5 for anything new in the year 2021?
01:41:08 <nakilon> why not?
01:41:40 <keegan> because it's extremely broken as far as cryptographic properties go, and if you don't need those properties there are better (mainly, faster) hash functions you can use
01:42:06 <nakilon> it's a hash sum of a file
01:42:14 <nakilon> it's not a password
01:42:40 <keegan> it's easy to generate pairs of files with the same md5 sum
01:42:41 <nakilon> and it's a public bucket
01:42:54 <keegan> this might be only a nuisance in your use case and not a security concern, but it's still easy to avoid
01:43:01 <nakilon> it's a public file storage -- what is the scenario of generating pairs of files?
01:43:38 <keegan> there is just no use case for which md5 is the best choice
01:43:52 <nakilon> this one
01:43:53 <keegan> except legacy systems
01:43:57 <keegan> no
01:44:09 <keegan> use sha256 and you won't need to worry about collisions (at least for the time being)
01:44:24 <nakilon> this is paranoidal
01:44:38 <nakilon> how many files you should upload to get a collision?
01:44:46 <keegan> only two if it's deliberate
01:44:55 <nakilon> this is paranoidal
01:44:56 <keegan> i think a generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5" and they will never upgrade to something not broken
01:45:00 <keegan> oh well
01:45:17 <keegan> there's no reason to use the broken thing when non-broken things exist that are better in every way
01:45:19 <zzo38> I agree that you shouldn't use MD5 hashes to identify files; there are better hashes such as SHA-3
01:45:25 <keegan> just having md5 code in your codebase is a risk
01:45:35 <keegan> "oh we aren't using these for cryptographic purposes, it's fine"
01:45:37 <keegan> ...years later...
01:45:49 <nakilon> what's the reason to select custom hash function for a bucket that I will upload a thousand of files in my whole life to?
01:45:53 <keegan> "custom"?
01:45:59 <keegan> in what way is SHA256 more "custom" than MD5
01:46:11 <keegan> they are both standards available in every modern hash function library
01:46:21 <nakilon> in what way md5 is more custom than sha256?
01:46:25 <keegan> you just got it in your brain that MD5 is "the" hash function
01:46:28 <keegan> and that's wrong
01:46:33 <keegan> and reveals you to be severely behind the times
01:46:39 <nakilon> you are angry on your own fantasies
01:46:40 <zzo38> Fossil uses MD5, but not to identify files. Rather, each deck ends with a Z card which has the MD5 hash of all preceding cards, and then the resulting deck is identified by the SHA-1 or SHA3-256 hash of the entire deck including the Z card.
01:46:54 <nakilon> fantasies that someone is stupid enough to not know about hash functions
01:47:09 <nakilon> angry without understanding the use case
01:47:18 <keegan> i've made my case and you choose not to understand it
01:47:19 <keegan> that's fine
01:47:22 <keegan> i'm going to eat pizza now so ttyl
01:47:42 <nakilon> you are just saying random trivia that is not applicable
01:48:18 <nakilon> wasting attention on inexisting problem
01:48:58 <zzo38> Some protocols require MD5, such as the HTTP auth
01:51:20 <nakilon> I must be using the HTTP auth because I'm from a "generation of programmers was taught that "hash function" is synonymous with "md5""
01:51:41 <nakilon> and probably my empty bucket will be used for a Mars mission
01:52:06 <zzo38> Even if you are, that doesn't mean that MD5 should also be used for other purposes too
01:52:11 <fizzie> I agree with the "there's no valid use case for MD5 except where it's required for interoperability" case. Libraries will eventually stop offering it as a choice; that's a good enough reason to not to pick it even when the choice would be otherwise arbitrary.
01:52:53 <nakilon> but where did I say that I should use md5 everywhere? it's just a way I index files in my bucket that I don't even immediately use
01:54:33 <keegan> but why'd you choose it
01:54:38 <keegan> when it's known to be broken
01:54:44 <keegan> and you could choose something not known to be broken, with zero downside?
01:54:54 <nakilon> you won't be even able to make me a problem because you don't have an Upload access to the bucket
01:55:13 <nakilon> it's broken only in your fantasies
01:55:31 <nakilon> in fact I'll never have an issue with this bucket and script
01:55:59 <zzo38> MD5 hashes are also shorter than SHA-1 hashes or SHA3-256 hashes
01:56:06 <keegan> that may be, but there is still no reason to choose the broken thing
01:56:28 <nakilon> there is no more sense in chosing another hash function for my bucket than in using Pi as 3.14 and a million of digits after .
01:57:15 <nakilon> zzo38 and it might be a reason to use it because it's an utl to a file -- it's good when it's short
01:57:22 <nakilon> *url
01:57:32 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83826 * S1(210) * (+273) creating page with language idea
01:57:46 <zzo38> Yes, but you could shorten it by using base64 instead of hex, or something like that
01:59:09 <keegan> using md5 is shoddy engineering that reveals you don't really care about doing things right, even if it doesn't cause any immediate practical issue in this particular application
01:59:14 <keegan> that's all
01:59:17 <keegan> if you disagree that's fine
01:59:24 <keegan> there's no reason for me to keep stating this
02:00:41 <pikhq> i mean if being short is all that matters why not crc32?
02:00:54 <keegan> i didn't mean to shit on your accomplishment but i guess we both got confrontational about it
02:01:09 <zzo38> CRC-32 is probably way too short for that, collisions are too likely even if accidentally
02:01:10 <keegan> well, 32 bits is short enough to worry about even accidental collisions
02:01:15 <pikhq> good point
02:01:19 <pikhq> sorry, context matters
02:01:24 <nakilon> zzo38 the "/" char would create a folders in bucket tree for no reason; also I like how hex looks
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02:02:29 <fizzie> I'm surprised base62 is used so little. I guess it's because you can usually find at least two more safe characters, like the URL-safe variant's _- pair.
02:02:30 <zzo38> nakilon: You can use a variant of base64 with different characters in use
02:03:32 <nakilon> zzo38 adding some custom library dependency to my script...
02:04:20 <keegan> it's a lot more annoying to implement when the base is not a power of 2
02:04:22 <nakilon> maybe my stdlib even has base64, still it's overcomplicating things for no real purpose
02:04:30 <nakilon> I mean base62
02:06:40 <nakilon> and yes, right before starting making the script I googled the length of crc32 and md5
02:07:21 <nakilon> and make a choice between them
02:10:44 <fizzie> Hmm, maybe HackEso's `paste should have used a hash function for the file name for deduplication purposes... but then it'd have to rename the file after the fact, because it needs to (really *only*) work for non-seekable inputs.
02:10:51 <fizzie> I guess it's probably not worth it. There are a total of four pastes that have been pasted twice, and a single paste (unsurprisingly, the empty file) that has been pasted 7 times.
02:11:06 <fizzie> I think people have been cleaning up that directory every now and then though.
02:14:37 <zzo38> Can any newer hashing algorithms which have a secondary hash starting at a different offset and then add that hash at the end of the data when computing the primary hash? (e.g. similar to having H(X||H("0"||X)) although you can do other things such as having different parameters for the secondary hash, or adding the length differently, etc)
02:14:39 <nakilon> this reminds me how people love to play in an echo chamber about "regexes can't parse HTML/XML"
02:15:20 <nakilon> because it's easier and funnier to be in an echo chamber than learn that some regex engines support recursion and parse HTML/XLS with no issues
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02:16:41 <nakilon> living in imaginary world where they've learned some "rules" of how things work and can't be assed to learn more
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02:29:20 <pikhq> I'd argue said regexes are not regexes
02:29:27 <pikhq> because regex refers to... regular expressions
02:29:41 <pikhq> instead they're regex-flavored programming languages because pain :)
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02:44:19 <keegan> yeah
02:44:32 <keegan> it just depends on how you define the word "regex"
02:45:57 <keegan> there's also the question of whether you *should* try to parse HTML/XML with such grotesquely-extended regex engines even though you *can*
02:46:09 <keegan> but this is #esolangs so I guess the answer to that one is affirmative :)
02:46:42 <keegan> regardless, attempting to do anything tree-shaped with a regex is usually a sign that you're doing it wrong and should consider a different approach
02:47:16 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever come across a purported XML-munching regular expression that'd deal with <![CDATA[ ... ]]>, even though it's certainly possible.
03:02:06 <salpynx> computational linguists are so pedantic
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03:05:18 <salpynx> thinking they can proscribe what regular expressions are - they should be studying how real groups of people _use_ regexes and simple describe
03:08:29 <salpynx> (that's (supposed) to be a joke, just in case anyone strongly disagrees, or worse, agrees)
03:08:35 <keegan> lol
03:08:38 <keegan> I wasn't totally sure ;)
03:08:52 <keegan> I think descriptive computer languages theory is a good idea though!
03:09:26 <keegan> it's definitely something people do
03:09:38 <keegan> take popular ad-hoc features and try to formalize them
03:10:05 <int-e> @wn proscribe
03:10:07 <lambdabot> *** "proscribe" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:10:09 <lambdabot> proscribe
03:10:11 <lambdabot> v 1: command against; "I forbid you to call me late at night";
03:10:13 <lambdabot> "Mother vetoed the trip to the chocolate store"; "Dad nixed
03:10:15 <lambdabot> our plans" [syn: {forbid}, {prohibit}, {interdict},
03:10:17 <lambdabot> {proscribe}, {veto}, {disallow}, {nix}] [ant: {allow},
03:10:19 <lambdabot> {countenance}, {let}, {permit}]
03:11:34 <salpynx> ugh, I used the wrong word: prescribe I meant.
03:12:37 <int-e> it's "inflammable" all over again
03:13:03 <nakilon> can lambdabot adjust line width?
03:13:22 <int-e> no
03:13:42 <salpynx> It feels like there could be a joke in there. I wish I'd done it deliberately. You can't proscribe what word I use to mean x ... or something
03:13:45 <nakilon> needs some regexes
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03:22:36 <nakilon> imagine that at the time you were learning programming people naming 10 random languages were not naming those that they would name today http://www.softpanorama.org/Bulletin/Humor/how_programmers_hunt_elephants.shtml
03:22:39 <nakilon> except C
03:23:08 <nakilon> even 12
03:24:17 <nakilon> hm half of them sound like dbms though
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03:27:33 <nakilon> two other lists can be found on this page http://www.softpanorama.org/Lang/programming_languages_humor.shtml
03:31:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Goglesq * New user account
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03:37:31 <nakilon> half of text on this page is written before my birth I guess
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03:45:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83827&oldid=83815 * Goglesq * (+247)
03:49:56 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83828&oldid=83765 * Goglesq * (+14)
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04:01:09 <salpynx> ? discriptive linguistics
04:12:05 <esolangs> [[NScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83829 * Goglesq * (+1955) Created page with "NScript is a basic esoteric language designed to be at least somewhat unique. NScript has a couple nicknames by the creator: NS, NoahScript NS has plenty of flexibility and ha..."
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04:35:04 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83830&oldid=83829 * Goglesq * (+2115)
04:37:07 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83831&oldid=83830 * Goglesq * (+0)
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05:51:02 <nakilon> is it German? can anyone read it? https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date&qvq=q:pub_title%3D%22Atlas%20der%20Evangelisch%20-%20Lutherischen%20Gemeinen%20in%20Russland.%20St.%20Petersburg.%20Buchdruckere
05:51:02 <nakilon> i%20der%20Kaiserlichen%20Akademie%20der%20Wissenschaften.%201855.%22;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_date;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=12&trs=13
05:51:50 <nakilon> shorter link: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301174~90071678:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu
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05:56:15 <salpynx> I thought I recognised 'soul' in Seelenzabl -- which seems to be "soul count"
05:56:22 <salpynx> a religious census?
05:57:07 <int-e> 4394 souls per priest
05:58:39 <nakilon> that's stats appendix pages to maps, it's the last page of stats and others are pages per guberniya
05:59:15 <nakilon> on this page I wonder what the biggest titles say
05:59:35 <nakilon> "souls per priest" -- interesting
06:00:24 <salpynx> oh, 'zahl', as in zahlen ℤ
06:00:30 <int-e> the final thing is "summary of all consistorial districts in russia"
06:02:44 <int-e> The total number of souls in lutheran settlements in Russia for the time from 1853 to 1854, amounts to
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06:06:17 <salpynx> Евангелическо-лютеранская церковь в России, Украине, в Казахстане и Средней Азии is a thing it seems
06:08:14 <salpynx> reminds me -- does Google home exist in Russia? I was yelling at my Google home in frustration trying to listen to specific Russian soundtrack music that it played to me first and I wanted to hear again
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06:09:07 <nakilon> there should be a town Melitopol somewhere on the right page here, I can't find it: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301173~90071677:Statistical-Table--Evangelisch---Lu
06:09:38 <salpynx> after ages of tweaking settings I got it to correctly recognise me saying 'поход' and it was spelled correctly on screen, then it's spin a bit and convert it to some silly English word and play me random stuff based on that
06:09:39 <nakilon> the right side is Tavricheskaya Gubernya that is this region https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%83%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B4
06:09:51 <nakilon> (the yellow one)
06:11:10 <nakilon> salpynx not sure, but Russian analogue is from Yandex, called Yandex Alisa or something -- it's a name of the voice driven assistant
06:11:17 <int-e> hmm trying to match that with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland
06:11:37 <nakilon> salpynx https://yandex.ru/alice/smart-home
06:12:42 <nakilon> int-e not sure what you mean, that's 1500km away
06:13:26 <nakilon> but if you mean the administrative division then the analogue would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courland_Governorate
06:14:23 <nakilon> so yeah, this is the proper link to the right page : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurida_Governorate -- you see there is "Melitopolsky Uyezd (Melitopol – Мелитополь)" in wikipedia article
06:17:50 <nakilon> it's here in the middle https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301169~90071673:Die-Kolonien-in-den-Gouvernements-J
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06:21:44 <salpynx> interesting, I have one of those JBL speakers that work with the Yandex assisant. The vague non-committal Google messages make some sense now if the Russian market is already covered. It's like they'd started trying to support it years ago but not bothered getting over the line, unlike other languages(/markets)
06:21:48 <int-e> so it's outside of the red regions, so it's not part of the statistics
06:23:00 <nakilon> int-e that's weird, it's the center of Melitopolsky Uyezd
06:23:28 <nakilon> yeah those green and red regions don't make sense to me
06:23:49 <int-e> red = protestant/lutheran, yellow = catholic; your statistics were for lutheran areas.
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06:25:11 <nakilon> oh you mean the map author only provided stats for regions that were relevant to him?
06:25:11 <int-e> your statistics are lutheran souls, so... yeah.. Melitopol would not be included
06:25:29 <nakilon> I thought those are just population charts and have to include all the biggest towns
06:26:04 <int-e> Nah I think it's just people associated with the church, not the whole population.
06:26:17 <nakilon> ok, thanks
06:26:58 <int-e> Take the number for Moscow: 8251 people in 1853...
06:27:18 <int-e> Surely that was a fairly small part of the population.
06:28:25 <nakilon> salpynx from some points of view it's harder for Google to compete in Russia because Yandex was the first Web Search engine, a year before Google, and all the technologies then were built in parallel but Google has no clue in Russian language so the indexing, ranking and stuff is hard for them
06:28:59 <nakilon> or "the first morphological search", I don't remember the details
06:29:27 <nakilon> companies are technologically nearly equal, Google is just bigger
06:29:54 <nakilon> proportionally to US economical size
06:30:06 <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(virtual_assistant) has interesting comments about Russian speech recognition complexity too
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06:30:55 <nakilon> int-e yeah but I would sudgest those numbers to be in thousands; then 8mln would be too much for that year, yeah
06:31:23 <nakilon> salpynx Alisa is one of the services that is a lot ahead of Google's Assistant
06:32:27 <nakilon> google Assistant can set a timer and tell a weather, Alisa at that time was doing relevant jokes, sarcasm, had a mood, was learning your conversation habits, etc.
06:33:24 <int-e> nakilon: nah, these are pretty surely raw numbers, single souls.
06:34:10 <int-e> Ah, I realize I mistranslated "Gemeinen" - these are communes.
06:36:51 <nakilon> oh now it makes sense, int-e here is the first page of the book: https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~301163~90071667:Title-and-Index-Page--Atlas-der-Eva
06:37:31 <nakilon> interesting, the book in German was published in Peterburg
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06:48:59 <nakilon> salpynx basically because Yandex is much smaller it's easier to get things done; i.e. to make a prototype of such thing like Alisa it takes a team of guy with ideas, a mobile app dev, NLP guy, audio recognition guy -- they are all working within the same building and can gather for a meeting or a dinner in 5-10 minutes
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07:08:47 <esolangs> [[Talk:Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83832&oldid=40598 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+485)
07:08:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Polyglot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83833&oldid=83832 * ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation) * (+1)
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07:51:45 <b_jonas> "<keegan> i don't play many games but when i do it's often because they are mentioned here" => yes, that helps, people here often give good recommendations
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07:52:05 <b_jonas> "<arseniiv> I think now half my games are those which were mentioned here :D" => by people other than you?
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07:53:07 <int-e> https://twitter.com/d_feldman/status/1399951777051598849
07:59:33 <river> why dont we get about/esolangs cloaks
07:59:48 <river> by registering as a community
08:02:22 <int-e> AIUI fizzie has mailed staff about it
08:02:59 <Taneb> river: we're in the queue
08:04:01 <river> ok
08:04:41 <int-e> See also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Freenode_and_the_future
08:06:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: one of the last steps to make the move to libera/#esolangs official will be to edit https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal to say "official home" again. I didn't dare to do that, but if you wish, you can now.
08:07:25 <b_jonas> putting it in the official password of the month was a good move too
08:07:56 <int-e> it seemed topical and simultaneously appropriate for the meme
08:08:10 <nakilon> hmmm
08:08:14 <b_jonas> yeah
08:08:24 <b_jonas> I was considering "dvd demagnetizer" as the password, but this is better
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08:09:52 <nakilon> the "normal" page of the map like this https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~285423~90057692# has the link "View in Georeferencerer" but then I don't see a way to get from the georeferencerer back to normal page, that is vital because it has the Export button... I opened like 100 maps via Georeferencerer map navigation and see
08:09:52 <nakilon> no way to now export what I need...
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08:13:31 <river> `password
08:13:32 <HackEso> ffklwnqmpoyfcqh
08:13:52 <int-e> `' river
08:13:53 <HackEso> 188) <quintopia> vorpal: a lot of people in AK fly <Vorpal> quintopia, well getting a pilot cert is a lot more complex than a driving license :P <quintopia> being an AK resident is a lot more complex than a driver's license too
08:13:55 <int-e> `? password
08:14:00 <HackEso> The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat.
09:04:21 <nakilon> (found it, there is a hyperlink "Website")
09:11:29 <myname> iirc, i learned about df here
09:11:58 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress or the unix command
09:12:11 <int-e> `` df -h
09:12:12 <HackEso> Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /bin \ none 997M 0 997M 0% /dev \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib \ tmpfs 124M 0 124M 0% /tmp \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /usr \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /sbin \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /lib64 \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hackenv \ none 24G 16G 6.5G 72% /hac
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09:12:38 <salpynx> I'm struggling to find a direct treatment of the orientability of a disk -- seems like it should be pretty straightforward, but the fact I can't find any clear statements about it has me confused. Everyone talks endlessly about Mobius strips and more complex objeccts
09:13:00 <int-e> Taneb: the game would be my guess :)
09:13:01 <myname> dwarf fortress
09:13:08 <myname> best game i ever played
09:13:14 <Taneb> Mmmmm
09:13:42 <fizzie> Speaking of which:
09:13:44 <fizzie> 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- The #esolangs namespace is registered to the esolangs project
09:13:47 <fizzie> 10:13 [libera] -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.libera.chat)- Public contacts: int-e, fizzie
09:13:55 <fizzie> That's just gone through.
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09:14:31 <fizzie> (I don't know how to *actually* manage cloaks, though, even though we now have that namespace.)
09:15:41 <river> cool!
09:16:20 <int-e> "Optional cloaks are available for members. These replace the hostname part with @about/yourcommunity/username, and can be requested on #libera-communities."
09:16:47 <int-e> that doesn't seem to be the way :P
09:17:18 <FireFly> I think you can just ask a friendly local staffer
09:17:47 <Taneb> I would like an esolangs cloak
09:23:46 <fizzie> I know some projects have some kind of a policy about cloaks; I don't know what ours should be. Maybe discuss on the wiki? I'll post an update on the talk page in a minute that it's now registered.
09:24:06 <fizzie> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiberaCloaks "To avoid overwhelming libera.chat staff, we are only issuing cloaks in batches." Yeah, sounds like it's probably just an ask-a-staffer thing; and also makes sense to collect them into a batch rather than bother the staff one-by-one.
09:24:20 <fizzie> Not that I think our community is quite as populous, but still.
09:24:29 <int-e> ftr I don't want a cloak
09:25:17 <int-e> I like my hostname, and I don't want to give any of math, haskell, or esolangs any particular preference
09:25:28 <fizzie> I don't know about myself, but I think my bots could do with one. Or at least fungot. If it's not "about/esolangs/...", I don't know what is.
09:25:28 <fungot> fizzie: time to shove off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
09:26:25 <int-e> fungot and hackeso make sense to me. though hackeso wants a short hostmask so it's a tradeoff
09:26:25 <fungot> int-e: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... well? yes no
09:27:12 <FireFly> oh in order to allow for as long message lines as possible?
09:27:15 <int-e> and the esolangs bot of course
09:27:17 <int-e> FireFly: yes
09:27:25 <FireFly> heh
09:35:23 <int-e> fizzie: I guess the policy could be something like having a wiki account with known corresponding IRC nick?
09:35:47 <fizzie> Yeah, that's approximately what I'm writing up in the next window over to that initial comment. :)
09:36:19 <int-e> We shoiuld get ais523 over here.
09:36:41 <int-e> brctl: ignored
09:36:41 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf
09:37:34 <int-e> Oh he's registered. I temporarily forgot that he's adopted a ninja style for entering the channel in the past year or so...
09:38:05 <int-e> ...so it's probably really just a matter of having logs :)
09:38:25 <fizzie> Yeah, I did in fact have a quick chat with him about this channel; he said he'll likely be continuing the thing of mostly reading via logs and then dropping by if there's anything particularly interesting.
09:47:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83834&oldid=83499 * Fizzie * (+2025) /* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ new section
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09:55:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83835&oldid=83619 * Fizzie * (+115) /* IRC */ Insert the word "official".
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10:20:39 <wib_jonas> fizzie: be careful, I think the cloak would be longer than the bots' current hostname. if you want to request a cloak for them, at least consider that.
10:21:23 <wib_jonas> yeah, int-e pointed that out too, I see it in the losg
10:22:11 <fizzie> Yeah, it was brought up. I still think it's worth it (in terms of the length limit not being *usually* a problem), but it's a scow that you have to make such a tradeoff.
10:23:53 <wib_jonas> "<int-e> We shoiuld get ais523 over here." => he was here in the sense that he joined the channel on libera at least once; otherwise he generally logreads and joins only when needed
10:24:19 <nakilon> it should not be a problem for bot -- he doesn't see own messages
10:25:11 <wib_jonas> fizzie: if you want an actually shorter hostname, you may be able to get one, because unaffiliated cloaks are now shorter\
10:25:24 <wib_jonas> they start with user/ instead of unaffiliated/
10:25:32 <nakilon> I wonder if there is a bot that makes daily RSS from IRC logs
10:25:48 <int-e> `unidecode ais
10:25:49 <HackEso> ​[U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S]
10:26:06 <fizzie> Yeah, there's that. But these specific bots *are* so "about/esolangs", it'd be nice to keep it in.
10:26:26 <int-e> (funny, xterm displays a box for that U+FEFF thing)
10:26:38 <fizzie> "about/esolangs/bot/botname" is 19+length("botname") characters; anything I run off the wiki server would otherwise be "techne.zem.fi" (unless I want to play with the reverse DNS) which is only 13. So that's a net loss of 13, for the obvious 7-character bot names.
10:26:53 <int-e> (overlayed on the i)
10:27:04 <wib_jonas> do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here?
10:27:22 <wib_jonas> a backup set of logs might be nice
10:27:44 <wib_jonas> or if kspalaiologos wants to restart their logs, that could work too
10:28:22 <wib_jonas> fizzie: they're about esolangs, but I don't see why the irc hostmust has to say that, rather than saying that elsewhere
10:28:25 <nakilon> actually website hosted logs can easily have RSS format
10:29:03 <nakilon> for example, having 10 last days items (excluding current day that isn't yet ready)
10:29:09 <wib_jonas> I mean I can see some use of the hostmask for network services and IRCops for security reasons so that anyone can quickly verify that a message is from a real IRCop or service
10:30:17 <wib_jonas> but for just HackEso or esolangs or fungоt that's less important
10:30:34 <fizzie> At least fungot's current host"name" of "2a01:4b00:82bb:1341::a" (22 characters) is only moderately shorter than "about/esolangs/bot/fungot" (25). I haven't asked if my ISP would be interested in delegating the relevant ip6.arpa zone, but given that they're your typical end-user/consumer/residential ISP, I feel like probably not. I've only had two ISPs so far who've been willing to do that.
10:30:34 <fungot> fizzie: but cyrus! are you leaving!
10:31:35 <wib_jonas> oh, fungоt doesn't run on the same server as esolangs and HackEso or at least a neighboring one?
10:31:55 <fizzie> No, I run it at home. Less mission-critical, y'see.
10:31:59 <wib_jonas> makes sense
10:32:24 <wib_jonas> I don't currently have an always-on machine, but perhaps I should still make logs on my often-on home machine
10:33:04 <wib_jonas> I'm not willing to run any evalbot, I decided that's a security problem that I'm not willing to tackle in the near future, but just making an IRC connection with logs can work
10:33:36 <wib_jonas> and it may still be useful even if it's off like one day every two weeks and possibly shorter interruptions from irc server disconnects or network outages
10:34:08 <fizzie> Also I don't want to abuse the donated resources esolangs.org has, our hosting provider's really sponsoring the wiki rather than "everything tangentially related to the wiki".
10:34:09 <wib_jonas> only I don't have a fixed IP address, so I'd have to set up something to point there if I want to make the logs public
10:34:25 <wib_jonas> fizzie: oh! I didn't know it was donated
10:34:35 <fizzie> Yeah, nobody pays for it.
10:34:58 <fizzie> I mean, I imagine a single tiny VPS is really a rounding error for a proper cloud provider, but still.
10:36:22 <wib_jonas> sure, I just didn't know it was donated
10:37:03 <wib_jonas> Is there like a banner thanking them on the esowiki main page or something?
10:37:06 <wib_jonas> I don't see one
10:37:12 <fizzie> It's at the bottom.
10:37:20 <fizzie> The tiny little ":bytemark" one.
10:37:31 <wib_jonas> ah I see
10:37:48 <fizzie> And also a brief mention at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:About actually.
10:37:54 <wib_jonas> and it also has the new Mediawiki icon rather than the old sunflower
10:38:12 <nakilon> my "evalbot" costs 0$, it's within free GCP tier
10:38:36 <wib_jonas> oh nice, the Bytemark banner leads to a 404 page
10:38:48 <fizzie> Yeah, looks like Bytemark removed those /r/... URLs, so our backlinks to their website are now 404s.
10:38:58 <fizzie> Well, I doubt we've been generating much traffic there either.
10:40:02 <wib_jonas> sure, it just, you know, makes an internet host provider unprofessional when they break their links
10:40:30 <fizzie> I'm not 100% sure it ever worked. ;)
10:41:38 <nakilon> reminds me some IBM technology that our bank used... forgot how it was called
10:42:33 <nakilon> it was about superfast and reliable server mirroring
10:43:24 <nakilon> their webpage sais it's super reliable and the link "read more" just leads to a page with server error
10:43:43 <nakilon> Server unavailable IIRC
10:44:34 <wib_jonas> https://web.archive.org/web/20180119185751/https://www.bytemark.co.uk/r/esolangs says it did work at some point
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10:45:49 <fizzie> Mhm. With a proper GA ?utm_source=... param too. I'd be interested in seeing the stats of that campaign. :)
10:47:26 <nakilon> damn, can't find the link
10:49:05 <nakilon> the technology kind of really worked but servers were failing once in few months and it needed a day to relaunch/sync it after a crash and so it was really possible that two could fail at the same time
10:49:43 <nakilon> but we didn't buy the third server because they costed several mln $
10:52:51 <nakilon> it's funny how things there were at the same time ridiculously expensive and unreliable
10:53:24 <nakilon> especially considering that if bank stops operating for several hours it loses government license
10:57:50 <nakilon> oh I guess I found it: "MIMIX -- Availability protects your business from downtime and data loss. Data, applications and critical system information are replicated in real ." ... https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/public/404-page-error?solution=11871
10:58:29 <nakilon> I mean https://www.ibm.com/partnerworld/gsd/solutiondetails.do?solution=11871 -- you'll redirect
11:05:12 <esolangs> [[Esolang:IRC cloaks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83836 * Fizzie * (+2290) Actually, let's just create this one as a placeholder, it's not like it costs money.
11:08:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83837&oldid=83834 * Fizzie * (-13) /* Libera.Chat community and cloaks */ Fix link.
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11:33:58 <salpynx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_g_surface says: "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the disc." That sounded interesting, but I'm so far from finding a proof or even a clear statement of how, that I'm beginning to doubt it's true. Anyone here know or can justify it?
11:34:46 <river> i don't know this math
11:36:03 <river> > Let M be a connected topological n-manifold. There are several possible definitions of what it means for M to be orientable. Some of these definitions require that M has extra structure, like being differentiable. Occasionally, n = 0 must be made into a special case. When more than one of these definitions applies to M, then M is orientable under one definition if and only if it is orientable under the others.[2][3]
11:36:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:85: error: parse error on input ‘of’
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11:42:00 <river> > Theorem 3.2. A closed and connected surface is non-orientable if and only if it contains a M¨obius strip.
11:42:02 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:106: error:
11:42:02 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
11:42:22 <river> it's a bit weird to think how a disk with boundry contains a mobius strip
11:42:49 <river> i guess that if you travel "off" the disk you bounce back, flipped
11:43:31 <river> I think the disk is equivalent to the 2d projective plane?
11:43:34 <salpynx> right, that's what I have been thinking, this n=o disc feels like it must be a special case, because I can prettty much follow any higher n argument, which are easy enough to find. If a disc/disk is a special case, I would have thought someone would deal with explicitly and set out what definitions and conditions apply
11:44:02 <river> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/308804/homeomorphism-between-real-projective-plane-and-disc
11:44:35 <salpynx> and that's what I though must apply, a disk must be in some sense homeomorphic to a mobius strip and the projective plane minus a point, but I can't see that
11:44:36 <river> maybe it's easier to understand that RP^2 is non-orientable
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11:44:53 <river> minus a point?
11:45:04 <river> hmm
11:45:12 <river> X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points
11:45:14 <salpynx> sorry! with a hole!
11:45:45 <salpynx> mobius strip is homeomorphic to the projective plane with a hole
11:45:47 <river> oh
11:45:53 <river> X = D/~ where ~ identifies antipodal points *on the boundary of D*
11:46:03 <river> interesting
11:46:10 <river> so, this aligns with the theorem posted
11:46:15 <river> "contains a mobius strip"
11:46:30 <river> http://math.uchicago.edu/~may/REU2016/REUPapers/Zhang,Y.pdf 3.2 on pg 4
11:46:52 <river> when these topologists are informally saying "a disk" I guess they mean something quite specific
11:47:09 <river> where the antipodal points of the boundary are identified?
11:47:27 <river> I can see why that is non-orientable
11:47:30 <river> intuitively
11:48:14 <river> but that detail is not stated on wikipedia
11:52:34 <salpynx> thanks, that paper looks interesting -- the se question has me confused with the different commentators talking about whether D is a ball of sphere, and the qn looks like it was edited at some point, but that's par for se
11:52:48 <river> yeah I think the original question was mistitled
11:52:50 <river> so they fixed that
11:54:05 <salpynx> Thanks for seeing the antipodal points thing, I was stuck in an unproductive search spiral, that looks like a detail that will help make some sense of what they meant
11:56:09 <salpynx> A mobius strip is described in various places as the most simple non-orientable surface -- a standard disk sounds more simple than that, so it didn't make sense that it was non-orientable unless there was something else going on
12:05:55 <salpynx> From the Zhang paper: "RP² is in essence a disk with boundary sewed diametrically."
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12:17:58 <salpynx> That se accepted answer does make sense now, and they are talking about a disk with a very specific boundary, which they are clear about, and that is homeomorphic to RP², and also non-orientable.
12:19:12 <salpynx> river: thanks! That was causing me undue mental anguish, all from taking wikipedia a bit too seriously.
12:22:08 <river> ideally someone should fix this on wikipedia
12:24:40 <salpynx> I was just trying to confirm what the correction should be "A non-orientable surface of genus zero is the projective plane." seems like the correct verison
12:26:12 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83839&oldid=83823 * ResU * (+102)
12:29:27 <salpynx> No, that's not right, RP² is genus 1
12:30:47 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83840&oldid=83839 * ResU * (+23)
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12:42:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Otesunki * New user account
12:45:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83841&oldid=83827 * Otesunki * (+202)
12:45:59 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83842&oldid=83818 * Otesunki * (+2) The demonstration for vector lists is actually kinda wonk and incorrect
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12:48:20 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83843&oldid=83840 * ResU * (-29) /* Hello World */
12:59:39 <salpynx> I'm going to call it here: there is no "non-orientable surface of genus zero" -- non-orientable surfaces must contain a mobius strip (genus 1) , can't find a reference, but surely a lower genus surface can't contain a higher one (otherwise it would be classified with the higher n)
13:02:13 <salpynx> This started off as an esolang related investigation I swear -- looking into describing a fungeoid playfield that is a n-holed torus rather than just a torus like Befunge and RASEL
13:06:04 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83844&oldid=82672 * ResU * (+90)
13:07:55 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83845&oldid=83844 * ResU * (+14) /* AEWNN */
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13:22:39 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83847&oldid=83846 * Batata * (+20)
13:22:48 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83848&oldid=83847 * Batata * (+1)
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13:30:33 <Guest28> Just confirming the Libera official browser client is Kiwi chat. It is. Hope this hasn't messed up my existing kc stored settings.
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13:32:44 <wib_jonas> Guest28: the official browser client is https://web.libera.chat/ . I think you have to set your settings again, because it's a separate instance from the one in https://kiwiirc.com/ .
13:33:09 <fizzie> I imagine that was in fact the desired outcome here?
13:33:28 <fizzie> (As in, not affecting the settings of the non-branded Kiwi.)
13:33:45 <fizzie> If it's client-side settings, I rather imagine the web's origin-based security model is going to enforce that anyway.
13:33:46 <wib_jonas> well, you could still use the one at https://kiwiirc.com/ since it handles connections to multiple networks together
13:34:47 <salpynx> fizzie: yes, that was me. non branded kiwi settings are fine
13:35:04 <fizzie> The IP was a bit of a giveaway.
13:35:20 <salpynx> oh yeah, that's annoying.
13:35:34 <wib_jonas> just saw an announcement on http://subversion.apache.org/ that their official irc presence (I don't think they are actually too much present there) is on libera now
13:35:40 <fizzie> (Especially since it lined up, what with length "salpynx" == length "Guest28" and consecutive quit/join.)
13:35:52 <salpynx> does the cloak thing help with that? Not that I'm that worries (it's too late anyway)
13:36:05 <wib_jonas> nice, this one is official for esolangs now
13:36:31 <fizzie> Android just made no channel or network official, by removing all mention of IRC from the support page.
13:36:57 <fizzie> (freenode's #android-dev used to be mentioned there, though really it didn't have any *other* sort of official status except for the mention.)
13:36:59 <salpynx> I was wondering is there any kind of semi-reasonable paranoia justified for using the kiwiiirc given all the freenet concerns about data.
13:37:30 <salpynx> freenode, it;s late, I need to stop and get some sleep soon
13:39:05 <salpynx> I am using https://kiwiirc.com/ , with the multinetwork settings etc
13:46:14 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83849&oldid=83843 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-10) Header level
13:49:57 <river> regarding cloaks
13:49:58 <river> > once you're a group contact there's a channel you can get invited to and you request in there
13:50:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:86: error: parse error on input ‘in’
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14:05:28 <fizzie> Yeah, I got the impression that's the -community channel that got already mentioned. But I'll look into that once there's some initial list of cloaks people want. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Community_portal#Libera.Chat_community_and_cloaks / https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:IRC_cloaks for those who filter away the recent changes feed.
14:30:11 <esolangs> [[STACKOMP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83850 * MartinAsdf * (+15366) Created page with "Example STACKOMP program: (logo.sk) v>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>v > rstack.....v >.p..v > p >OO d v >Smpv v ^ S p<<<<< A..."
14:31:39 <esolangs> [[User:MartinAsdf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83851&oldid=72772 * MartinAsdf * (+24) added stackomp
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15:42:59 <esolangs> [[NScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83856&oldid=83855 * Goglesq * (-151)
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16:58:59 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83859&oldid=83468 * CatCatDeluxe * (+28)
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17:48:21 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83861&oldid=83860 * ResU * (+2) /* Cat program */
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17:57:51 <esolangs> [[AEWNN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83863&oldid=83862 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-3) /* Cat program */ /* Quine */ Isn't this really a quine?
18:06:55 <zzo38> I want to make nothing up my sleeve number by sufficiently old texts, such as "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". What other possibilities might there be?
18:15:27 <fizzie> Decimals extracted from famous constants (pi, e) are kind of the conventional ones, aren't they?
18:16:21 <river> i dont like nothing up my sleeve numbers
18:16:33 <fizzie> If you want to specifically make it from well-known pieces of text... hmm, the ones that come to mind first are kind of political or religious, which you might want to avoid for obvious reasons.
18:20:22 <cd> Alice in Wonderland?
18:20:29 <cd> and other classics?
18:21:50 <fizzie> How about: "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
18:23:02 <b_jonas> cd: not Alice I think, it doesn't have one canonical edition that you can get the text from I think
18:23:04 <fizzie> If you need a nothing-up-your-sleeve number for an Esolang article, something about the matrix of solidity would also work.
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18:23:15 <b_jonas> the same is the problem with Shakespeare or Vergilius probably
18:24:41 <b_jonas> mathematical constants are probably better in that it's less likely that someone a few decades from now will suddenly decide that your now completely innocious text is very offensive to them and all references to it should be purged from cryptographic protocols
18:26:48 <b_jonas> and it's not easy to find anything old enough and widely distributed while still having one canonical version, unless it's something sacred like the Torah
18:28:14 <fizzie> Another nothing-up-your-sleeve source might be something that's a matter of the public record, like past Dow Jones Industrial Average values used for geohashing.
18:36:07 <shachaf> The important thing is that people shouldn't have a lot of flexibility in these things.
18:36:20 <shachaf> See https://bada55.cr.yp.to/
18:39:56 <keegan> how about the dates of eclipses
18:40:42 <b_jonas> keegan: the problem is that for anything involving cryptography, you need to know an exact value, not an approximate real, and it's not clear that exact numerical values of eclipses are canonical
18:41:05 <b_jonas> or that you can always round them that way and don't get eclipses that happen close to where your rounding would flip a bit
18:41:26 <b_jonas> also they're sort of periodical which might be bad
18:41:53 <b_jonas> I still the use of like fractional parts of square roots of the first primes for crypto protocols
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19:44:58 <esolangs> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83864&oldid=77847 * Jedgrei * (-30)
19:49:16 <esolangs> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83865&oldid=83864 * Jedgrei * (-169)
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20:03:20 <oren> the old testament can be used as a number and has an established text-to-numer conversion
20:04:56 <fizzie> And of course doesn't fall into the "kind of political or religious" category at all.
20:06:29 <oren> hmm... I guess Greek also has established sufficiently-old numerical values for letters, so you could use e.g. the iliad
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20:08:08 <keegan> tfw your cryptographic algorithm accidentally generates the true name of god
20:10:27 <b_jonas> oren: yes, and the greek vs hebrew numbers are mostly the same for corresponding letters too
20:10:27 <fizzie> Is that an Unsong reference or something?
20:16:10 <nakilon> is there any French on this channel?
20:19:06 <nakilon> n-holed torus funge field sounds crazy ..D
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20:30:20 <keegan> fizzie: no it's vaguely a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_(film)
20:32:36 <b_jonas> hey #esoteric community. someone recommended me the "uMatrix" plugin for Firefox browser. apparently this is similar in purpose to the NoScript plugin which I'm already using, in that it lets me configure with whatlists what scripts or other fancy webshit content webpages are allowed to load. do you have any experience with this "uMatrix" plugin, and can tell me about it, especially that one non-obvious
20:32:42 <b_jonas> hint that will save me days of suffering if I know it in advance?
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20:46:50 <b_jonas> looks good so far. there'll be some setup period, but that's normal for this kind of thing.
20:47:43 <zzo38> I have not had experience with it. Does it allow scripts and stuff to be substituted, or only blocked? What about headers? (I do have an extension to deal with headers, but making it a core part of the program dealing with sending requests and retrieving responses might be better; it can extend to any protocol and allow more to be added too.)
20:48:25 <nakilon> uBlock Origin FTW
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20:50:53 <b_jonas> it seems it only lets you allow or block stuff, not substituted, except possibly for the Referer, but how it differs from noscript seems to be that you can allow/block based on the pair of the domain of the main webpage and the domain of the requested resource, rather than only based on the requested resource like noscript does. which means I can tell it to forbid the giantitp.com forum to block loading
20:50:59 <b_jonas> any off-site images, because it's a stupid forum that lets any poster embed externally hosted images to their posts. and then I can override that for images loaded from particular domains.
20:52:03 <b_jonas> and on the forum, those images will still be in the document tree and show up an empty rectangle, so I can load any one image by clicking on "view image", which makes that the main webpage, and images are allowed in general for most webpages in the default config
20:52:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for headers, it can specifically control cookies, and has something about Referer, I don't know about other headers
20:53:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: the cookies are allowed or blocked based on combination of the domain of main website loaded on the tab and the domain of the nested request where the cookies would be sent
20:54:44 <b_jonas> I like it so far, but I'll of course I may encounter problems weeks into browsing with it when visiting some particular website
20:57:04 <zzo38> Adding the user rules of headers into the core system can also define a uniform interface for setting language, do-not-track, cookies, etc.
20:57:58 <b_jonas> there are still a few things for which I'd like a plugin (or an option in this plugin). namely firefox has a global option where it can forbid webpages to set font faces except to the four user-controllable ones (default, serif, sans-serif, monospaced), which is nice and I use it (it doesn't *quite* work as it should, if my choice of font lacks characters it will use whatever the webpage chose as a
20:58:02 <zzo38> For setting cookies you might also want cookies to be allowed or blocked based on their name and/or value as well, and possibly on path, not only by the domain. You might also want to override the expiry of cookies, or possibly also the values of cookies.
20:58:04 <b_jonas> fallback font, but this is rarely relevant), but I'd like to be able to whitelist font faces per domain too
20:58:22 <nakilon> "giantitp.com forum" sounds like giant tit
20:58:31 <zzo38> I would like to be able to whitelist font faces per MIME type of the document that uses the fonts.
20:58:37 <b_jonas> and I'd like something like that for line-spacing too rather than font-face. a lot of webpages could be made better if the browser just ignored line-spacing declared in CSS everywhere.
20:59:48 <zzo38> Yes, I also; it is one of the things that my idea of "meta-CSS" would allow to do.
21:00:13 <b_jonas> and I know I can override the individual CSS rules, and I sometimes do that, but it would be easier to just ignore the website's idea about the font-face or line-spacing (or whatever those are actually called) property no matter how it's set
21:00:41 <b_jonas> now I'll visit some of my more frequently visited websites so I can set up settings for them
21:02:39 <zzo38> (Meta-CSS would allow to change the definition of CSS properties, including conditionally based on the selectors and other properties.)
21:03:20 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83866 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+1393) Created page with "'''Nevermind''' is a simplistic programming language made by [[User:OfficialCraftCGame|CraftCGame]] in 2021. It uses commas ('','') to separate arguments. There is no escape c..."
21:04:55 <b_jonas> one difficulty is that, just like noscript, if a webpage immediately redirects to another domain (usually via javascript but the principle is the same if it's a HTTP redirect), it's not easy to see what was allowed/blocked in the page that did the redirect, even though that's where you would have to change the permissions
21:04:57 <zzo38> Another of my idea is a nwe !priority CSS command that can only be specified by the end user (not by documents), which is another way to glboally override CSS even if !important is specified; you have to write !priority(0) or !priority(255) or whatever to set it.
21:05:24 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83867&oldid=83828 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+16) Added language "Nevermind" into the list
21:05:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know of that, and a solution (when it is a HTTP redirect) could be to record the chain of redirects and other requests so that they can be viewed later.
21:06:35 <zzo38> (Firefox will record the requests but only if the appropriate web developer window is open.)
21:06:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's not really enough, !important already does most of what you want in that !important in user styles are higher priority than !important in page styles,
21:07:16 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83868&oldid=83866 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-8) Changed the caption text in the table at the "Functions" section
21:09:09 <b_jonas> hmm wait. specificity of css selectors have a total order, right? is there a way to write a selector that fakes to be more specific than almost any other selector, including id selectors, but still can match whatever I want, including all elements if I choose so? if that's possible with css, I could use that to override font-face or line-spacing on a whole webpage
21:09:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: That is true, although there is still the priority by how specific the selector is. Also, in some cases you might want to be lower priority than page styles instead.
21:09:29 <b_jonas> well, except I'm not sure if it could override the style attribute of the element too
21:10:30 <zzo38> That too
21:10:55 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83869&oldid=83868 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+70) /* Truth Machine */ Cats
21:16:42 <nakilon> use Stylebot extension to override styles
21:18:14 <b_jonas> what I'd also like is to link multiple website domains together so they're controlled by the same rules
21:28:37 <zzo38> You might want to match more of the URL than just the domain, too.
21:31:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, there are some rare cases like taht
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21:32:06 <b_jonas> I do remember a few
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21:38:40 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if it's worth it to enable the `chghost` capability for the logger bot, and format those messages appropriately. Guess the question is, is the simulated "Changing hostname" QUIT-and-JOIN the canonical truth or not.
21:47:29 <dutch> b_jonas: (didn't read entire backlog) uMatrix is great, but unfortunately gorhill has stopped development. See https://github.com/gorhill/uMatrix
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21:50:05 <b_jonas> dutch: thanks
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21:58:51 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/i240ds/request_for_a_stable_umatrix_release_for_cname/g048wyk/
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22:04:14 <ais523> `unidecode ∇
22:04:16 <HackEso> ​[U+2207 NABLA]
22:04:27 <ais523> `unidecode ∆
22:04:28 <HackEso> ​[U+2206 INCREMENT]
22:04:30 <ais523> hmm
22:05:30 <ais523> a nable is conceptually an inverted delta, not an inverted increment
22:05:37 <ais523> so why isn't there a decrement operator in Unicode?
22:08:13 <ais523> int-e: I mostly follow the channel by logreading rather than idling
22:08:49 <int-e> ais523: Yes, I should've known as I pointed out a bit later.
22:08:55 <b_jonas> ais523: I find it funny that you are mostly logreading but join to use HackEso's unidecode command of all things
22:09:53 <b_jonas> but I understand you only did it to make a point to us
22:11:08 <ais523> the other way round, actually, I was using it to *discover* that point
22:11:20 <ais523> after going through two character map applications and discovering them to both be useless
22:11:26 <ais523> then I started complaining, once I learned what the reality was
22:11:41 <ais523> <wib_jonas> do we know who runs the tunes.org logs and whether they could join the bot here? ← I believe that their tunes username is part of the URL
22:12:37 <int-e> "INCREMENT" just sounds wrong, everyone calls it a delta.
22:12:39 <fizzie> I think those two triangles are a bit weird, anyway. Because ∆ is also ∇². So they're kind of related.
22:12:49 <ais523> int-e: but a delta is a different codepoint entirely
22:12:51 <int-e> Language is weird.
22:13:06 <int-e> ais523: *a* delta, distinct from the letter delta
22:13:08 <ais523> `unidecode Δ
22:13:09 <HackEso> ​[U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA]
22:13:19 <ais523> hmm
22:13:23 <int-e> also distinct from the river thing
22:13:25 <ais523> I think of a nabla as being an upside-down Greek delta
22:13:27 <ais523> but maybe it isn't?
22:14:03 <fizzie> Just to add to the confusion, ∇ is also called "del".
22:14:31 <ais523> anyway, the question is, I have an esolang which could plausibly use ∆ as one of the spellings of the increment operator
22:14:43 <int-e> distinguishing between ∆ and Δ may be the real mistake here
22:14:46 <ais523> should it have a corresponding spellng for the decrement operator? and if so, should it be a nabla?
22:15:01 <int-e> Unicode is weird in its attempt to capture some semantics in code points.
22:15:16 <ais523> it is remarkably difficult to name an increment operator unambiguously
22:15:19 <fizzie> I think *if* you're going to use a pair, ∇∆ is that pair, and don't get delta-the-letter involved.
22:15:27 <ais523> I may have to resort to "+=1" and "increment"
22:16:13 <fizzie> gucharmap's notes say "U+2207 NABLA = backward difference; gradient, del * used for Laplacian operator (written with superscript 2)" and "U+2206 INCREMENT = Laplace operator; forward difference; symmetric difference (in set theory) * other symbols may also be used for symmetric difference".
22:16:20 <fizzie> I've always wondered where those extra notes are from.
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22:16:56 <ais523> oh, I actually have a defined policy about these things, and if it also means "symmetric difference" (which is also a real function) it gets disallowed
22:17:14 <fizzie> (As in, are the notes also part of the Unicode standard / code charts or not.)
22:17:27 <ais523> that makes things much easier
22:17:43 <river> <int-e> also distinct from the river thing
22:17:44 <fizzie> Apparently they are, judging from https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2200.pdf
22:17:47 <river> what thing?
22:17:57 <fizzie> 1. (1) delta -- (a low triangular area of alluvial deposits where a river divides before entering a larger body of water; "the Mississippi River delta"; "the Nile delta")
22:18:02 <river> Aha lol
22:18:11 <ais523> also, thank you for telling me what gucharmap is called, now I have an actually viable character map program :-)
22:18:13 <ais523> (it's still in the repos)
22:18:31 <int-e> Oh, ∆ and Δ even look subtly different in the `fixed` font.
22:19:00 <fizzie> `unidecode △▽
22:19:01 <HackEso> ​[U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+25BD WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE]
22:19:04 <ais523> they look subtly different in my font too, but it's very subtle
22:19:10 <int-e> (That seems a bit unnecessary.)
22:19:11 <ais523> the second one is a pixel taller, I think
22:19:13 <b_jonas> ais523: I thought the Delta as used for ∇² was just a greek Delta used in this meaning. I don't really understand why there's a separate ∆ character for it, and probably wouldn't use it. but apparently I do have a glyph for the ∆ character in my font, which is odd because it still has too few of these math glyphs, I should add some more.
22:19:25 <fizzie> You could go with the WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE and the WHITE DOWN-POINTING TRIANGLE, those don't seem to have any semantic baggage.
22:19:48 <ais523> well, one of my aims is for the language to be fast to program in and easy to read
22:20:04 <ais523> so I support a lot of possible names for the builtins, then normalize them into something that looks better
22:20:07 <ais523> e.g. * becoming ×
22:20:27 <int-e> ais523: In fixed it's not a pixel taller but the sloped lines are moved ...1/3 pixel to the sides each.
22:20:31 <ais523> but it seems like increment/decrement don't have any more readable and unambiguous way to write them than "increment" and "decrement"
22:21:06 <fizzie> `unidecode Δ∆△🛆🜂
22:21:06 <ais523> "+=1", "-=1" are also clear, but you have issues like "++" meaning append in some languages, or "--" being a comment marker
22:21:07 <HackEso> ​[U+0394 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER DELTA] [U+2206 INCREMENT] [U+25B3 WHITE UP-POINTING TRIANGLE] [U+1F6C6 TRIANGLE WITH ROUNDED CORNERS] [U+1F702 ALCHEMICAL SYMBOL FOR FIRE]
22:21:13 <ais523> and "+1" and "-1" look like integers
22:21:40 <ais523> maybe I should just go for "inc" and "dec", although even "dec" looks like "decimal"
22:21:59 <int-e> https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/nabla.png
22:22:22 <fizzie> All those five look pretty alike in my browser: https://zem.fi/tmp/tri.png
22:22:48 <ais523> well, they're obviously all different, but all triangles in a similar orientation
22:22:50 <int-e> (no nabla there, it's named from the final line)
22:23:00 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Gh3jd4K.png
22:23:55 <b_jonas> ais523: "+=1" and "-=1" look good to me, people are already used to it because that's how you write in-place increment in python and some other languages
22:24:24 <b_jonas> though I'd usually write " += 1" but the spaces clearly have no semantic value there
22:25:43 <fizzie> Hmm, interesting. When I use `scrot` to take a screenshot, it renders pixel-perfect in a "dumb" image viewer (say, sxiv), but it's very messily scaled when the same file is opened in a browser, even when the zoom level is set to 100%.
22:25:49 <fizzie> I'm guessing maybe scrot writes the display DPI into the PNG metadata somewhere, and then the browser tries to "correct" it for the physical size, and they disagree about that.
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22:26:24 <ais523> b_jonas: the spacing is important in this language, it tokenizes on spaces
22:26:36 <ais523> and it's semi-important for a user to know where the token boundaries are
22:26:47 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but here it's between tokens
22:26:56 <b_jonas> spaces inside tokens are important of course, that happens in many languages
22:27:00 <ais523> well, increment is a single token in this language, even if it's two in Python
22:27:03 <fizzie> (Is there a `pdfinfo` equivalent for PNG files?)
22:27:48 <ais523> fizzie: `less` works for basic info, as does `file`
22:28:10 <ais523> apparently there's a pnginfo in the Ubuntu repositories
22:28:12 <fizzie> imagemagick's `identify` command says "PNG 158x41 158x41+0+0 8-bit sRGB 1389B 0.000u 0:00.000".
22:28:36 <nakilon> 01--
22:28:50 <ais523> huh, is sRGB there a color space or specification of which color channels exist or both?
22:29:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: maybe exiftool? I don't know what pdfinfo does. or ImageMagick's identify with specific parameters such as -verbose to print everything.
22:29:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: is there something specific you want to extract?
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22:30:17 <fizzie> Whether there's something encoded about the physical size / resolution. But the `pnginfo` tool from the `pngtools` package says "Resolution: 0, 0 (unit unknown)".
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22:30:27 <fizzie> So I'm not sure why Chrome would display it scaled.
22:30:41 <ais523> maybe because the resolution info is invalid?
22:30:43 <b_jonas> if you want to see everything, I recommend (identify -verbose "$filename"; exiftool -G2 "$filename";) to see everything,
22:30:56 <nakilon> which file are you talking about?
22:30:58 <b_jonas> then once you find out what you want, there's a way to restrict either of those tools to print only that one thing
22:30:59 <fizzie> I guess maybe it's going "hmm, this image has no specified resolution, I'm going to guess 72 dpi" and then "hmm, this resolution doesn't match the screen DPI, I must scale it to present it in the right physical size".
22:31:30 <fizzie> Well, https://zem.fi/tmp/tri2.png in this case.
22:31:54 <ais523> hmm, both my Chromium and my Firefox sem to handle it correctly
22:32:24 <nakilon> pixelWidth: 158 pixelHeight: 41 typeIdentifier: public.png format: png formatOptions: default dpiWidth: 72.000 dpiHeight: 72.000 samplesPerPixel: 3 bitsPerSample: 8 hasAlpha: no space: RGB
22:32:25 <fizzie> Maybe it's a new Chrome thing. I don't think I've seen it before at home, but my work Chrome has been persistently doing something weird around those lines.
22:33:10 <fizzie> b_jonas: Thanks for `identify -verbose`. I tried `-h` and `--help`, and when neither provided useful output, stopped guessing.
22:33:27 <fizzie> Seems like I should've gone with `-help`.
22:33:32 <ais523> sometimes programs give useful information if you run them with no args at all
22:33:35 <fizzie> But single-dash long options just feel a little weird.
22:33:47 <fizzie> ...oh, that would have worked too.
22:33:55 <ais523> and there will often (but not always) be a man page, too
22:34:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: also in general for media files, you can also try (ffprobe -of flat -show_format -show_streams "$file";) but for a png file it's unlikely to tell anything that identify and exiftool doesn't show.
22:34:23 <ais523> I think my usual convention for usage information is "provide a man page, give usage information on --help or if there's an invalid argument, also give usage information if run with no arguments and that doesn't otherwise make sense for the program"
22:34:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: (identify;) without arguments works for the help, but you may have to look at HTML manuals too and even then you won't easily find all info about ImageMagick
22:35:33 <ais523> hmm, i initially interpreted "HTML manuals" as manuals about HTML, rather than manuals formatted using HTML
22:35:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, I forgot an important one
22:36:00 <ais523> English can be so ambiguous sometimes, that's one of the reasons to create esolangs
22:36:26 <nakilon> width: 158 height: 41 bands: 3 format: uchar coding: none interpretation: srgb xoffset: 0 yoffset: 0 xres: 2.83465 yres: 2.83465
22:36:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: there was a specific tool for pngs that you can use to redo the compression or losslessly crop at block boundaries without redoing the fourier transform and quantization
22:36:35 <b_jonas> let me find it
22:36:42 <fizzie> Eyeballing the sizes (between sxiv and Chrome), I don't think it's quite "assume 72 dpi, scale to adjust to correct physical size given the 104 dpi screen density" level weird. But it's doing *something* odd.
22:36:42 <b_jonas> and that same library had an info tool
22:36:59 <fizzie> https://zem.fi/tmp/tri3.png shows both side-by-side (sxiv left, Chrome right).
22:37:35 <fizzie> (The left side should have no antialiasing/scaling going on.)
22:37:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: pngtools debian package, (pnginfo "*.png";)
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22:38:09 <nakilon> the above outputs were from sips and vips
22:38:29 <b_jonas> probably also won't tell you anything that exiftool doesn't, but the pngtools package is worth knowing in general
22:39:00 <ais523> b_jonas: why do you use "(…;)" to quote shell commands on IRC?
22:39:08 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I usually omit the semicolon
22:39:14 <ais523> I don't think real shells need the semicolon
22:39:19 <b_jonas> but I do use parenthesis to quote shell commands often, even on irc
22:39:40 <b_jonas> parenthesis are nice because they work this way in both shell and cmd, so I can quote either kind of command with them
22:39:44 <ais523> ah, I see
22:39:45 <esolangs> [[Talk:Turing Machine But Way Worse]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83870&oldid=79860 * MilkyWay90 * (+199)
22:39:58 <ais523> although in sh-alikes it's more than just a quote, it runs the command in a new subshell
22:40:02 <b_jonas> and shell commands often have other kinds of quotes or weird characters in them
22:40:22 <ais523> yes
22:40:25 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, you have to put a function header before them like f() if you want to quote the contents as a shell command
22:40:33 <ais523> I've taken to using «» for quoting code (including shell commands)
22:40:42 <ais523> although even that doesn't work for some languages, like Perl 6 and Jelly
22:41:33 <b_jonas> that might work, but the problem with them is that there are both french-style «..» quotes and german-style »..« quotes which can make any use confusing
22:41:55 <b_jonas> (and yes, the french-style would technically be « .. » because they put spaces inside
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22:42:11 <nakilon> »..« looks like a confusion sign
22:42:14 <b_jonas> which makes it even harder to tell if it's a starting or ending quote character, there's a space on both sides)
22:43:11 <b_jonas> there's probably no nice way to quote any programming language, but you can often find a natural style for any particular language
22:43:27 <fizzie> Weird. It's just doing the wrong thing throughout. Even in the devtools inspector thing, if I look at a preview of the response, it does the bad scaling. (Okay, stands to reason it'd use the same code to render images. But still.)
22:43:47 <fizzie> (Chromium does the same.)
22:44:01 <fizzie> (Firefox doesn't.)
22:44:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: you could try to extract the image with some other tool and reencode it
22:44:15 <b_jonas> or is this something you want to debug to fix?
22:44:55 <nakilon> when I need to do a screenshot with details I drag the window to retina display
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22:45:08 <nakilon> if I do screenshot on a usual one it's blurred
22:45:20 <nakilon> I mean, it has lower resolution
22:45:24 <fizzie> Well, preferably I'd like it fixed. But I'm not sure how much effort I want to dedicate to it.
22:49:48 <fizzie> Looking at an entirely different image that does have a set resolution (a pretty arbitrary one, 38.98x38.58 PixelsPerCentimeter), it's being scaled too. So maybe it *is* just assuming a resolution for the first PNG (just not 72; maybe it's been upgraded to default to 96 or something) and then trying to present it with the "physical" size. But I'd really rather it just render the pixels at 1:1 size.
22:50:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think Gimp has an option to do either for its zoom levels
22:51:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: is this a standalone PNG in the tab, or inside a HTML?
22:51:27 <fizzie> A standalone PNG in a tab. But it does the same if I just do a minimal HTML wrapper, <body><img src="tri3.png" /></body>.
22:51:46 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialCraftCGame]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83871&oldid=83814 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+14)
22:52:31 <b_jonas> ok. I imagine the two can differ.
22:52:44 <b_jonas> well, could
22:52:49 <fizzie> If I slap a style="image-rendering: pixelated;" on it, it still maintains the scaling, just does the nearest-neighbor thing.
22:54:20 <b_jonas> because HTML has its own odd rules about images that are partly inherited from multiple decade long tradition of netscape/mozilla/firefox emulating msie, then chrome or opera or safari emulating mozilla, then edge emulating everything else again etc
22:55:49 <b_jonas> and then a growing set of extensions, including this new one that lets you give multiple image sources of which the browser chooses one depending on what resolution the image will be displayed in which can depend on whether you're using a high resolution monitor that has two pixels for every traditional pixel measured in a webpage, which is a nice extension but its syntax is seriously messed up in a way
22:55:55 <b_jonas> you think people would have learned not to do anymore when adding features to HTML
22:57:39 <fizzie> Even if I render it as the page background with style="background-image: url('tri3.png');", it's still scaled. And not in Firefox. Odd.
23:00:35 <fizzie> And the exact same thing happens to something like https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Png_pixel_cube.png -- the image as viewed in Firefox is rendered "naturally", but the one in Chrome is scaled by... 69/64.
23:00:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: make sure this isn't just caused by some unusual setting or plugin that you set in those browsers
23:01:51 <fizzie> If it is, I don't know what setting it could be. The Chromium one definitely should be pretty vanilla.
23:02:01 <zzo38> Also some servers will try to force you to download the picture instead of displaying it, although I can usually force it to display it in the browser by entering a data: URI
23:02:11 <fizzie> My "desktop environment", on the other hand, might be more uncommon, though.
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23:02:50 <zzo38> What desktop environment is that?
23:04:33 <fizzie> Well, it's no specific one. It's just Xmonad as a window manager, and some bits and pieces of GTK+ thing.
23:04:36 <zzo38> (Also, I don't have the problem with wrong scaling on the browser)
23:04:50 <nakilon> what do you mean scaled by 69/64? distorted the aspect ratio?
23:05:15 <fizzie> No, just uniformly scaled.
23:05:26 <fizzie> The image itself is 64x64 pixels, but it's rendered as 69x69.
23:05:49 <nakilon> ah
23:06:57 <nakilon> renders as 64 and 128 for me
23:07:13 <fizzie> I did a chrome://flags + "reset all" just to be sure, so it shouldn't be a manually enabled weird setting either.
23:07:41 <nakilon> make sure to do ctrl +/- until it says 100%
23:08:03 <int-e> ctrl-0
23:08:05 <int-e> please
23:08:09 <nakilon> no
23:08:24 <nakilon> ctrl-0 resets to your settings default that can be different
23:08:36 <fizzie> It's been 100% the whole time.
23:08:58 <zzo38> I use a program I wrote by myself to take screenshots. (They don't have as many options as scrot, because other programs can be used for many of the things. However, one option that perhaps should be added is the option to control if the mouse cursor is captured; scrot does have that option.)
23:13:30 <fizzie> Just verified that it's not a PNG-specific problem. Opening a (data URI that encodes a) 222x227 pixel JPEG file renders a rectangle that's exactly 222x227 pixels in Firefox, but 239x245 in Chromium.
23:13:31 <int-e> fizzie: so that's in line with assuming 96dpi and adjusting that to 104dpi. eww.
23:14:52 <int-e> or maybe 103.5 rather than 104.
23:15:14 <fizzie> I can't believe it's intentional, I think it must be some kind of a bug. But not an obvious one to track down.
23:15:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83872&oldid=83867 * ResU * (+12) Added AEWNN
23:16:23 <int-e> well it could be a feature intended for 200+ dpi displays
23:16:37 <fizzie> Hmm.
23:16:51 <fizzie> I started chromium with --force-device-scale-factor=1 and it stopped scaling.
23:16:59 <fizzie> So I guess you might be right in that.
23:17:02 <nakilon> basically retina is just doubling the resolution
23:17:15 <nakilon> and disables font antialiasing
23:17:18 <int-e> and quadrupling required bandwidth
23:17:29 <nakilon> or whatever it's called
23:17:47 <fizzie> It's just that, I don't think it makes sense to do scaling like that when the display depth is so close.
23:18:13 <int-e> fizzie: right
23:18:15 <fizzie> s/depth/density/
23:18:31 <fizzie> Well, for now I'll just stick that flag onto my list.
23:18:45 <int-e> Hmm, my display reports 94x95 dpi, that could be fun. But maybe chrome refuses to downscale at least.
23:19:08 <fizzie> Oh, I guess another alternative would be to just make the display resolution lie.
23:19:23 <fizzie> But maybe it's convenient to be actually able to approximate physical sizes in Gimp or whatnot.
23:20:00 <nakilon> btw, recently Chrome started showing everything smaller for me both on Windows and macOS
23:20:14 <int-e> (But there's no chrome or chromium currently installed here, so I won't test)
23:22:26 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83873&oldid=83872 * CatCatDeluxe * (+24)
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23:53:50 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (esolang)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83874 * ResU * (+587) Created page with "'''Truth Machine''' is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. [[Category:2021]][[Category:Languages]] ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Cmd !Description |- |<code>input(a..."
23:55:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ResU * moved [[Truth Machine (esolang)]] to [[Truth Machine (language)]]
23:55:11 <fizzie> Yeah, the GTK UI does `resolution / 96` as the scale factor, and then rounds it to the nearest 1/64th, meaning my 104/96 rounds to exactly 69/64. Or something along those lines. https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:ui/gtk/gtk_ui.cc;l=1085;drc=71ce45f2f742ca6449749a906ce5bb9948c8b555
23:55:17 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to have changed recently, but maybe what has changed is how universally fractional scaling factors are applied to images, or something. Because while --force-device-scale-factor=1 does solve the ugly image scaling, everything *else* does look a little smaller now than I'm used to. But maybe it's not really logically consistent to scale text and other scalable things while keeping images
23:55:23 <fizzie> unscaled.
23:55:38 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just get used to the smaller size.
23:57:12 <int-e> fizzie: not scaling pixel images a form of hinting, which has always been a compromise.
23:57:17 <int-e> +is
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2021-06-03
00:02:45 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83877&oldid=83825 * ResU * (+49)
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00:35:22 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (language)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83878&oldid=83875 * ResU * (+133)
00:38:49 <nakilon> resizing glitches you say... https://files.gitter.im/5773fad8c2f0db084a20979b/YUho/image.png
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00:48:08 <cd> fizzie, have you ever had the umlbox-kernel randomly decide to hang at max CPU usage on one core and disobey the timeout?
00:48:12 <cd> because i am mystified
00:48:26 <cd> i've been trying to reproduce it and it just happened again randomly with my instance
00:51:09 <cd> can't even reproduce it consistently .-.
00:51:18 <fizzie> Not that I remember, no. But any sort of confusion/bug in the init could presumably do it. The timeout isn't external, as I recall, but handled with signals in init.
00:52:26 <cd> i'll take a look at int
00:52:43 <cd> and also doubly-enforce the timeout using subprocess's timeout option (which was added in Python 3.3)
00:52:50 <cd> *init
00:53:42 <fizzie> Though the only problems with init and its configuration that I remember are the ubd padding issues, which have been sorted all the way back in ceb910f.
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00:57:27 <nakilon> damn clever thing the guy made https://github.com/kojix2/YouPlot
00:58:03 <nakilon> I've been using the unicode_plot library for a while, but he made a gem with ./bin making all sorts of STDIN parsers he would want to
00:58:37 <nakilon> so you don't need to write ruby code to use unicode_plot lib now
01:00:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Clpb * New user account
01:00:58 <nakilon> he could ask to add the binary to unicode_plot gem but it would need him to make test, debate on style and the unicode_plot's maintainer idea to have API "same as in julia" for idk why
01:01:18 <nakilon> instead he's making the binary independently
01:02:58 <nakilon> btw I don't like that the common directly and name for these is ./bin because they are not necessary binary files -- would be better to have them in ./exe I guess but I didn't see such standard
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01:06:47 <fizzie> That's what "bin" means: executables.
01:08:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83879&oldid=83841 * Clpb * (+161) Just added a short text about me so I can use the rest of the wiki
01:11:05 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-_-p.txt <- a lot of non-"binary" files too. Also, a great filename, got lucky there.
01:13:12 <nakilon> what does that sed do?
01:13:46 <fizzie> Just an ad-hoc filter to get rid of all the boring cruft in "..., dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, BuildID[sha1]=d146dbe9a8ea08382b6c63ee7d0ebeb151f2ced3, for GNU/Linux 3.2.0, stripped".
01:14:04 <fizzie> Especially the BuildID, of course.
01:14:28 <nakilon> hm, for some files the file prints me too much
01:14:55 <fizzie> Probably a slightly different output format then. I just picked something that worked for me.
01:14:56 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/RjJc/slim
01:15:18 <nakilon> I guess this file just has three versions in it
01:15:36 <fizzie> Yeah, don't have to worry about "fat" binaries on this system.
01:15:37 <nakilon> damn I thought this thing is gone when macOS removed the power9 support
01:16:09 <cd> macos doesn't support power9 at all...
01:16:23 <cd> it supported powerpc though, that's years deprecated but maybe some devs still build for it
01:16:58 <fizzie> In retrospect, `file --mime-type --brief` would've been an easier way to sanitize: https://0x0.st/-_-f.txt
01:17:51 <fizzie> (Besides, aren't you going to start getting all these x86-64/AArch64 multi-binaries next?)
01:19:44 <keegan> man, they really screwed up by not calling the 64-bit arm architecture "leg"
01:19:48 <nakilon> cd yeah I may confuse them -- didn't work with them either
01:20:09 <fizzie> I think "leg" was being used for something though?
01:21:34 <fizzie> Not exactly easy to search for with everyone writing these "cost you an ARM and a leg" pun titles.
01:22:52 <fizzie> Maybe there wasn't anything, or at least anything too relevant, and I just imagined it.
01:24:36 <fizzie> Oh, right, I think I'm thinking of that LLVM toy example that was just like an ARM subset, https://llvm.org/devmtg/2014-10/Slides/Cormack-BuildingAnLLVMBackend.pdf
01:25:11 <fizzie> https://github.com/frasercrmck/llvm-leg
01:25:36 <fizzie> Doesn't exactly fit the "a bigger ARM" context though.
01:25:59 <fizzie> StrongARM was an actual thing though.
01:27:14 <keegan> and "thumb" of course
01:27:35 <fizzie> Something something middle finger pun.
01:30:30 <esolangs> <LdDIyJhJowY> This is exaActly the siutuationq DXisEcFIerreit hasG found itselfq ins.t Wge HwerRe bridginYg ltoZ guarkantee a smooyth transition..d.C wigthiEn hGoursP ofr cShkangDinng the topicr tQo point Sto the neOwR chat, theyg toPok Dover oXur channekls.j
01:31:10 <fizzie> Heh, been a while since the last piece of forwarded spam.
01:31:43 <keegan> lol
01:31:46 <keegan> wut in tarnation
01:32:01 <fizzie> Clearly a bad siutuationq.
01:33:10 <int-e> so that's what it looks like
01:33:59 * pikhq scratches her head
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01:34:30 <int-e> pikhq: I've seen talk about the spam on ##freenode, but had not seen the actual spam itself
01:34:31 <Corbin> Looks like SCP-3125.
01:35:05 <fizzie> I can get something intelligible out of all the other words by only deleting letters, with the exception of "DXisEcFIerreit".
01:35:28 <esolangs> <xKkPIopn> Andrew ULee likeKs wsuckingF hot asiarn Zguy's diAcks and has haH jcchkode hiumeseDlf.
01:35:59 <fizzie> Hmm.
01:36:34 <fizzie> Feel free to do "brctl: ignore freenode/*" if you want to stop that from doing anything in that direction.
01:38:13 <fizzie> As for "DXisEcFIerreit", maybe that's "Disc..." something. "DiscFerret"? netsplit.de says #discferret was a channel over on the other network.
01:38:30 <int-e> fizzie: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27289620
01:38:53 <nakilon> 1 /usr/bin/ex (for architecture x86_64):Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
01:38:53 <nakilon> 1 /usr/bin/ex (for architecture arm64e):Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64e
01:38:59 <fizzie> int-e: Ah.
01:39:13 <nakilon> this is how arm looks like
01:41:14 <int-e> fizzie: kind of independent... I googled the second sentence
01:41:38 <fizzie> There's been two other similarly jumbled-up nicknames joining and subsequently parting, but they've not said anything.
01:41:59 <fizzie> I might +q $~a over on the other side maybe.
01:42:07 <fizzie> Hard to say if it's likely to get any worse or not.
01:44:56 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/fCzA/slim
01:49:32 <nakilon> you have 10 times more ruby executables than I do lol
01:50:36 <nakilon> maybe they are hidden by rbenv shims
02:29:12 <nakilon> fungot are you going to update your esoteric language?
02:29:12 <fungot> nakilon: but, we are far outnumbered! that frog made the epoch, your wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win!
02:29:57 <nakilon> positive ending
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04:32:48 <iovoid21> ⧸!\ TΗIᏚ СНᎪNNᎬᒪ ΗAS ϺOVЕᎠ TO IᎡC․LIBΕᎡA.CHAΤ #HAΜᖇADІO /︕⧵
04:32:49 <iovoid21> /!\ THE JΕWS ᕼΑVЕ TAKEΝ OᏙЕR FᖇEᎬNODΕ, CHATS HАVE MОᏙΕᎠ ТO ⅠRⲤ․ᒪІВЕᎡA.CᕼAT ⧸!\
04:32:50 <iovoid21> /!﹨ JOIⲚ #НᎪΜRADΙO TODΑY. TΗІS CዘАΝNΕⅬ ᕼAS ΜⲞVED ΤO IᎡС.LΙBΕᎡA.ᏟᎻΑT #HᎪMRΑDΙО /!\
04:32:55 <iovoid21> TዘΙЅ OFFIᏟІᎪLᏞⲨ EⲚᗪORSEⅮ MΕSSAᏀᎬ ᎳᎪS ⲂᖇⲞUԌΗТ ᎢO YⲞU BY ᏞIBEᖇᎪ․ϹᕼAᎢ STAᖴᖴ
04:33:09 <sknebel> oh ffs
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04:33:48 <dioxide> ∕!\ TⲎΙЅ CHΑNNΕL ΗAS ϺОVEᗪ ᎢO IRC.LΙBEᏒA.CHAΤ #HAᎷᎡΑDΙO /!⧹
04:33:49 <dioxide> ∕ⵑ∖ ΤⲎᎬ ᎫEᎳЅ HΑVE TAᛕΕⲚ OᏙᎬR FᎡᎬᎬNⲞᎠᎬ, CHAΤS ΗΑᏙᎬ MΟVEᎠ TO ΙRϹ.ᏞIΒᎬRА․CHΑT /!\
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04:45:13 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83880&oldid=83869 * Bangyen * (+103)
04:45:26 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83881&oldid=83880 * Bangyen * (-2)
04:46:42 <int-e> hmm, was that all...
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04:56:24 <nakilon> just noticed, Chrome added features to "autodelete cookies after you close specific website" and "fully disallow cookies on specific websites [including third-party cookies]"
04:56:51 <nakilon> added FB and IG there instantly
05:29:37 <zzo38> In C, can I prevent global variables that I am not using from taking up memory?
05:30:12 <keegan> the linker should remove unused stuff
05:30:18 <keegan> not sure if that requries -fdata-sections
05:30:19 <zzo38> (without dynamic allocation)
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05:30:45 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83882 * Salpynx * (+4173) document lofty goals for a fungeoid playing with dimensionality
05:30:45 <ais523> zzo38: global variables in C are statically allocated, so the memory for them will be reserved right from the start of the program
05:30:49 <zzo38> Actually I mean it might not be known until run time, and sometimes the variables might be used only for part of the execution and then it is finished with it, or it doesn't need it at the start but does use it later
05:31:12 <int-e> so... no
05:31:20 <ais523> however, if they're on a page that's all zeroes, most OSes won't actually allocate the page until you assign to one of them, so only the address space is allocated, not the physical memory
05:31:33 <keegan> if you are on a system with virtual memory, yes
05:31:45 <ais523> right
05:31:55 <zzo38> Well, I am using Linux so I think that it does have virtual memory
05:31:58 <keegan> if you're programming a microcontroller then that doesn't help
05:31:59 <ais523> I think most systems that have an OS also have virtual memory nowadays, although of course that wasn't historically always the case
05:32:15 <keegan> that depends how you define an "OS"
05:32:19 <int-e> keegan: but then you'll typically have a good idea of what you will and won't need
05:32:27 <ais523> on a microcontroller you normally care more about peak memory usage than anything, so it's usual to statically allocate everything so that you know how much is available
05:32:30 <keegan> yep
05:32:40 <zzo38> Is it possible to specify what page to use for each group of variables, and then to cancel a page once it is no longer in use?
05:32:45 <ais523> and if it's too much, figure out which variables aren't being used simultaneously and union them
05:32:49 <keegan> i'm not sure I've *ever* used malloc in all my microcontroller programming
05:33:08 <ais523> zzo38: not in a standard or portable way, both are possible in Linux (and probably other OSes) via system-specific mechanisms
05:34:08 <keegan> in GCC you can specify the section for each variable, and then you can use a linker script to put all those variables together and align them to a page
05:34:15 <keegan> and then use madvise(MADV_DONTNEED)
05:34:15 <ais523> I guess putting them all in a big structure that's alignas() the page size would be one way to approximate it in (modern) standard C, although you would have to know what the page size was
05:34:30 <ais523> but using a linker script would be the more normal way
05:34:43 <keegan> on a symbol derived from the section load address (which the linker script can also give you)
05:35:52 <ais523> MADV_FREE is possibly better than MADV_DONTNEED for this, it's a kind of "lazy" MADV_DONTNEED that delays the free until memory pressure occurs (or you unfree the pages by writing to them again)
05:36:40 <ais523> although, this seems like the sort of thing that if you were heavily using it for performance, ideally the kernel API wouldn't require system calls
05:37:44 <ais523> if there's no need to do something synchronously, you can imagine having a userspace buffer of "unimportant system calls" that the kernel reads when the process's timeslice starts/ends (not sure which timing would be better)
05:37:50 <ais523> and runs them then, to save on context switches
05:38:01 <ais523> I don't think anything like that exists yet, but it should
05:38:35 <zzo38> For example, the hash tables are only needed during class loading, and the variables dealing with sounds are only needed if sounds are enabled
05:39:13 <ais523> zzo38: if you're looking for a more standard mechanism, you can make the global variables pointers to dynamically allocated memory, allowing you to allocate the memory only when needed and free it after you're done
05:39:59 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but I wanted to know if there is a way to do without dynamic memory, too
05:40:02 <ais523> although, in practice, most mallocs will never return memory to the OS (until the program ends), rather recycling it for use in future allocations, except when dealing with very large allocations
05:41:15 <keegan> I've heard proposals to make all system calls asynchronous based on request / completion queues
05:41:21 <keegan> not sure if that was ever implemented in linux
05:41:38 <ais523> I think that in order to make a general-purpose malloc that did habitually return almost all the memory, you'd need some sort of GC that could move objects around and update the pointers to them, otherwise memory fragmentation would become too large an issue
05:41:40 <ais523> keegan: I like that
05:42:21 <keegan> except I guess you still want something like a synchronous system call that's just "wait for the next event"
05:42:23 <ais523> I've actually been wondering about how far you could go in terms of implementing system calls in userspace
05:42:32 <keegan> (which could be a syscall completion or a timer or an I/O event)
05:42:40 <ais523> and yes, you need one blocking call, which would basically be a hyper-general select-alike
05:42:48 <keegan> yeah
05:47:33 <zzo38> You can't move objects around with malloc though; you will need realloc for such a thing, I think. (I don't know what implementations of realloc will do that well enough, though.)
05:47:37 <ais523> when looking into the "world's fastest fizzbuzz" thing I was wondering whether it might be possible to implement pipes using shared memory, so that the kernel normally wouldn't need to be involved
05:48:13 <ais523> zzo38: well, we're assuming that the malloc implementation wants to move them, the problem is that the program that allocated the objects typically won't be able to handle them unexpectedly moving
05:48:36 <ais523> so you'd probably need to use something that was able to trace all the pointers to the objects (even in registers) to be able to update them
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05:49:11 <ais523> esoidea: a "conservative" Boehm-GC-like GC, but which actually compacts objects in memory, and just updates anything in the address space that looks like a pointer
05:49:27 <ais523> this would lead to random bits of memory corruption, but the program would probably still run
05:49:41 <ais523> and you could probably work around it by programming defensively
05:51:33 <zzo38> The OASYS text adventure VM will set all references to an object to null when the object is freed, although it doesn't move around objects in memory (but doing so wouldn't be prohibited by the definition of the VM, as long as it looks in local variables and stack also; doing so would require keeping track of the types of values in the stack)
05:51:46 <ais523> yes
05:52:08 <ais523> I think compilers should generate metadata with programs that allow all the types of values in the stack and heap to be calculated via tracing pointers
05:52:18 <ais523> they're pretty much doing that anyway at the moment, to generate debug info
05:52:27 <ais523> and it would be useful for precise garbage collection and compaction
05:55:34 <keegan> yes
05:56:07 <keegan> I know there's been a lot of design work on adding GC hooks to Rust
05:56:29 <keegan> because they don't want to add a GC to the language implementation itself, but want to make it possible for third party libraries to implement GCs that integrate nicely
05:56:33 <keegan> it's a fairly tricky problem
05:57:13 <keegan> btw that kind of metadata is also used for another purpose: stack unwinding for exceptions
05:57:19 <ais523> yes
05:57:26 <ais523> although, I'm not as sure that that's necessary
05:57:46 <ais523> I had a great idea to save executable size, which is to determine the stack unwind rules via static analysis of the executable
05:58:06 <ais523> and to make small adjustments to opcodes in order to ensure that the analysis would produce the right result
05:58:13 <ais523> (and to mark things like catch blocks)
05:58:31 <keegan> well you can definitely implement exception semantics without stack unwinding, by transforming to a sum type. but it loses performance in the non-exceptional case
05:58:33 <ais523> at least in x86, lots of asm instructions have multiple possible encodings, which let you put that sort of metadata there
05:58:36 <keegan> now that's an interesting idea
05:59:03 <int-e> ...ugh.
05:59:04 <keegan> the idea of "constrain your compiler output so it's statically analyzable" also shows up in other places
05:59:15 <keegan> like various sandboxing schemes
05:59:32 <keegan> Google's NaCl and other stuff
05:59:47 <keegan> running untrusted native code by checking that it conforms to a restricted subset that has statically analyzable control flow
05:59:56 <ais523> most notably, mov register, register has a spare bit, and the REX prefix is very common and has a spare bit (rex.x) in the majority of places it's used
06:00:54 <int-e> ais523: but do you really want to rely on that freedom?
06:01:34 <shachaf> Is Windows SEH a better system than Unix signal handlers?
06:01:35 <ais523> int-e: in both these locations, the two commands are specced as equivalent, so Intel/AMD couldn't break the equivalence in a future processor revision without breaking existing programs
06:02:20 <ais523> so the only issue would be if you wanted to use the spare bits for two different purposes, and I think it'd be up to the executable format to decide which meaning it wanted
06:02:27 <zzo38> There are VM codes for such statically analyzable with sandboxing too, though
06:02:32 <shachaf> They could recommend one encoding, though, and give it better performance.
06:02:44 <int-e> it works for fingerprinting software because there's a lot of code to work with... I don't see it working when you have to cram a fixed amount of information into the code.
06:03:02 <ais523> shachaf: this seems unlikely to happen in practice, because the spare bits are a consequence of making the encodings orthogonal
06:03:03 <int-e> fingerprinting->watermarking
06:03:20 <ais523> so the reason they're there in the first place is because it was more performant to do that than to give them a meaning
06:03:37 <shachaf> What would a really good system be for the things that signal handlers and SEH are used for?
06:03:44 <ais523> int-e: well, the amount of information you need for unwind, that isn't in the code already, is basically zero
06:03:46 <int-e> ais523: I'm really more worried about not having enough degrees of freedom to express the information you'd need for GC.
06:04:04 <ais523> oh, with GC it'd be way worse, you probably wouldn't have enough for that
06:04:07 <ais523> I was just thinking about unwinding
06:04:21 <int-e> And of course there's the question whether you want to have half of a disassembler as part of doing GC.
06:04:39 <zzo38> Although, some VM codes are not statically analyzable, but that will only mean that JIT is difficult; depending on the specific VM codes, stuff such as moving around objects automatically might still be possible
06:05:02 <int-e> or stack unwinding for that matter
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06:06:19 <ais523> well, a decently accurate algorithm for unwinding on a caller-cleans ABI looks something like "run through the program, executing only unconditional jumps, pushes/pops, returns, and anything that mentions the stack pointer"
06:07:20 <ais523> the only common operation that misses is spills
06:08:10 <zzo38> I don't know if it will work unless the program is written in that way, in which case it will work.
06:08:40 <ais523> and I was thinking about this in combination with an ABI where spills were noticeably different from "regular" local variable access (accessing a different part of memory, so that local variable out-of-bounds wouldn't overwrite spilled data)
06:09:31 <ais523> fwiw, nowadays I think of function calls and returns as a spill of the instruction pointer, it seems to map perfectly into the normal register spilling in the function prolog/epilog
06:10:04 <ais523> the calling function doesn't get to use the instruction pointer because the called function needs to use it, so you have to spill it
06:10:44 <shachaf> Some architectures put the return address in a register instead of on the stack, right?
06:11:22 <int-e> yeah, link register
06:11:30 <ais523> yes, but you need to spill the register in order to make more than one call
06:11:42 <int-e> (callee-saved)
06:12:07 <ais523> actually, modern x86 does that too, but only for userspace→kernelspace `syscall`s
06:12:11 <shachaf> Right, but then it's even more just like regular register spilling.
06:12:33 <shachaf> Just a caller-save register.
06:12:40 <ais523> (I think the reason is that is that it saves you from needing to figure out which stack you're using and what's allowed to access it)
06:13:25 <ais523> this is why syscalls on Linux clobber two registers, incidentally, it's because those registers were used to spill IP and flags during the syscall process
06:13:26 <int-e> shachaf: Haha, it's not at all clear who owns the value in the link register...
06:13:59 <int-e> I thought since the caller sets it, it belongs to the caller, so it would be callee-saved.
06:14:01 <ais523> it's call-preserved for obvious reasons, thus it must be technically owned by the caller
06:14:23 <ais523> (although of course the callee can use it for other things temporarily as long as it restores the value)
06:15:52 <shachaf> Oh, hmm, right.
06:16:34 <ais523> I guess one benefit of using a link register is that it means that the processor doesn't have to understand the stack at the hardware level
06:16:48 <ais523> although, I think hardware-accelerated stacks make a lot of sense for all but the very simplest processors
06:17:12 <shachaf> I guess call stacks specifically have acceleration anyway, right.
06:17:20 <ais523> yes
06:17:32 <shachaf> Though maybe that's entirely separate from the actual memory stack, just matching call and return instructions?
06:17:41 <shachaf> I assume the main reason is to help the branch predictor.
06:17:55 <ais523> I think both Intel and AMD have a separate predictor in the hardware whose job is to predict the value of %rsp, that runs ahead of the main predictors
06:18:18 <shachaf> Oh, that's not the kind I was thinking about.
06:18:22 <ais523> and they also have an internal stack that stores the addresses of the last few unreturned call instructions to be executed
06:18:30 <ais523> which is used to predict where a return instruction goes
06:18:50 <ais523> (but the value needs to be read from memory anyway, just in case someone modified the stack in between the call and return)
06:19:34 <ais523> IIRC something related to Spectre/Meltdown meant that there was some scenario in which you had to intentionally overflow that stack for security reasons
06:19:59 <ais523> in order to overwrite any value an attacker might have put in there (which might cause speculative execution to something that shouldn't be speculatively executed)
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06:22:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83883&oldid=83799 * Otesunki * (+1810) testing tables
06:23:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83884&oldid=83883 * Otesunki * (-2) fix
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06:27:22 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83885&oldid=83884 * Otesunki * (-2)
06:27:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83886&oldid=83885 * Otesunki * (+17)
06:28:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83887&oldid=83886 * Otesunki * (-1823)
06:33:22 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83888 * Otesunki * (+2006) Inital Commit
06:37:09 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83889&oldid=83888 * Otesunki * (+513)
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07:26:05 <b_jonas> brctl: ignored
07:26:05 <esolangs> brctl: Ignore list: freenode/V freenode/shachaf libera/Sgeo libera/Soni libera/V libera/cd libera/int-e libera/shachaf
07:26:10 <b_jonas> brctl: help
07:26:10 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
07:26:13 <b_jonas> brctl: help filter
07:26:13 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: filtered" (to list), "brctl: filter regex" (to add) or "brctl: unfilter regex" (to remove)
07:26:19 <b_jonas> brctl: filtered
07:26:19 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: /!\\
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07:27:26 <b_jonas> brctl: filter regex (/|⧸|/)(!|!|︕)(\\|﹨|⧵)
07:27:26 <esolangs> brctl: no spaces in regexen, it would be too confusing
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07:29:15 <b_jonas> brctl: filter (/|⧸|/)(!|!|ⵑ|︕)(\\|﹨|\|⧵)
07:29:15 <esolangs> brctl: filtering
07:29:26 <b_jonas> brctl: filtered
07:29:26 <esolangs> brctl: Filter expressions: (/|⧸|/)(!|!|ⵑ|︕)(\\|﹨|\|⧵) /!\\
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07:32:55 <nakilon> that's what unicode is for
07:33:07 <nakilon> to avoid spamfilters
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07:38:35 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83890&oldid=83889 * Otesunki * (+9)
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07:41:09 <b_jonas> ais523: well those are some scary eso-ideas
07:47:30 <b_jonas> ais523: on the practical side, the big advantage of Linux and C ecosystem is that most of the libraries are compiled in a way that has a fixed ABI and you'll be able to use the same binary without recompiling forever. (the rust guys are trying to work hard to break this, though perhaps that'll change in the future like on MSVC, but even in a rust library you could add a definite C ABI interface that you
07:47:36 <b_jonas> export and then import with another smaller rust "header" library that you do have to recompile.) that makes it hard to try to do something like that garbage collection that requires every piece of code in your executable to adhere to some new ABI convention like that unwinding markings.
07:49:59 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83891&oldid=83890 * Otesunki * (+44)
07:50:50 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83892&oldid=83891 * Otesunki * (-2) /* Instructions */
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07:51:24 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83893&oldid=83892 * Otesunki * (-16) /* Instructions */
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07:57:01 <b_jonas> I consider this assuming benevolence: let's say that rust doesn't have a stable ABI yet because it's a young language and they don't want to commit themselves to a bad ABI while the language is still evolving, because they might regret that later.
07:57:17 <esolangs> [[User talk:Bangyen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83894 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+83) Created page with "whoa i've only made this wiki today and ppl made interpreters/compilers for it wow."
07:57:47 <esolangs> [[User talk:Bangyen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83895&oldid=83894 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-83) Blanked the page
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07:58:35 <b_jonas> so for now, if you really want a fixed ABI, you have to explicitly define and export a C ABI, and import it from another crate. sort of like what you could do to have a binary that you don't have to recompile for a C++ library in Windows MSVC, back when MSVC broke the C++ ABI more often. though the situation isn't quite analogous to C++, so don't try to take that metaphor too far.
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07:59:07 <nakilon> wow that Bangyen dude implemented >30 interpreters
07:59:14 <b_jonas> and yes, I do sometimes say that rust is to C++ as zig is to C, but rust crates which are relevant here are one of the things that really break this analogy
07:59:17 <nakilon> what a hobby
07:59:54 <b_jonas> nakilon: you mean some people in #esoteric do weird and apparently useless things with computers?
08:04:09 <nakilon> I should make one more useless thing
08:04:22 <nakilon> a translator between all the brainfuck derivatives
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08:11:19 <nakilon> while downloading maps from davidrumsey.com it's so interesting to explore how town that know had different names during being settled by different people
08:13:29 <nakilon> for example, the first known town names in Crimea were given by Greeks, Evpatoria was known as Kerkinitida, then it was renamed to Gezlev idk by whom, maybe tatars that were owners of it for most of the time
08:14:17 <nakilon> Sebastopol, Simferopol, Melitopol -- the "-opol" is from greek
08:15:23 <nakilon> then Russian names were changing sometimes during the Russian Empire
08:17:14 <nakilon> then seas also have multiple names because they are named by explorers from everywhee
08:19:01 <nakilon> and that German regions that int-e helped me understand the map about -- I didn't know they existed, and some towns there really had German names
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08:56:54 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83896&oldid=83882 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Program Commands */ grow / shrink in terms of w
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09:07:45 <shachaf> Can I get off the "have my name mentioned every time someone asks brctl for the ignored list" list?
09:08:31 <fizzie> Oh, right, that.
09:08:59 <fizzie> I could do the usual "add a non-breaking space" thing.
09:09:24 <shachaf> Well, I'd rather not even have my name show up, ideally.
09:09:38 <shachaf> But that would be an OK compromise, I guess.
09:09:42 <fizzie> Or make "brctl: ignored" only work via private messages, maybe that'd be better.
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09:20:06 <fizzie> brctl: help ignored
09:20:06 <esolangs> brctl: see "brctl: help ignore" (filter by nick) and "brctl: help filter" (filter by text content) for the two available commands
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09:20:11 <fizzie> brctl: help ignore
09:20:11 <esolangs> brctl: usage: "brctl: ignored" (to list; only in a query), "brctl: ignore [net/]nick" (to add) or "brctl: unignore [net/]nick" (to remove); network defaults to your own; nick = * matches any message
09:20:16 <fizzie> brctl: ignored
09:20:16 <esolangs> brctl: Try doing that in a query, otherwise it pings everyone.
09:20:51 <shachaf> That's good, though why is the list even accessible?
09:20:56 <shachaf> I guess it's fine.
09:21:55 <fizzie> Two reasons: I think it's good there's some way of checking it did what you told it to; and I need a way of reading the list before a restart so that I can persist it into the config file.
09:22:19 <fizzie> Maybe we won't have a bridge so long that it's worth doing anything extreme, like having it write a file.
09:23:58 <shachaf> Makes sense.
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09:29:07 <int-e> Ah... I have a NO_ACT ignore on esolangs which also means it doesn't hilight me. Yay for accidental conveniences.
09:30:17 <int-e> (irssi; NO_ACT means the messages get displayed but don't count as activity on the channel)
09:31:09 <fizzie> I've been wondering if there's a thing like that; I was going to set it on esowiki on the other network, so that all the bridged things and/or wiki changes stop showing up as activity.
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09:46:05 <tepos> /﹗⧹ THIЅ СHΑΝΝᎬL HАS ΜΟVΕᎠ TΟ IᎡϹ.ᏞIBΕRΑ.ⅭᕼAT #HᎪMRАᎠⅠΟ ⁄!\
09:46:05 <tepos> /!⧹ JOIΝ #ዘAΜRAᎠΙΟ ΤOⅮAY. ΤHΙᏚ CⲎAⲚNΕL ΗAS ΜⲞVED ТΟ ΙᎡC․LΙBEᎡA.CHΑT #HAMRΑᎠIO /!⧹
09:46:05 <tepos> TᕼΙS ΟᖴᖴΙCΙAᏞᏞΥ EΝDORSᎬᗪ ⅯΕᏚSAGE WAS BROUGHΤ TO YOU BY ᒪIВERA․СНAT ᏚТАFᖴ
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10:27:30 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83897&oldid=83873 * Otesunki * (+14) Added RAMDISP
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10:28:41 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83898&oldid=83893 * Otesunki * (-2) if Otesunki.stupid: Otesunki.scream()
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10:35:36 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83899&oldid=83898 * Otesunki * (+175)
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10:39:58 <esolangs> [[RAMDISP]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83900&oldid=83899 * Otesunki * (+22) /* Instructions */
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10:46:42 <esolangs> [[PEWWWWW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83901 * Monochromeninja * (+2652) Unfinished. Only contribute if you know what you're doing!
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12:06:39 <esolangs> [[Tech Support Scam]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83902&oldid=83858 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+0) /* Truth machine */ Fix
12:08:16 <esolangs> [[Stoplight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83903&oldid=82416 * Jedgrei * (-29) It's not turing complete
12:09:21 <fizzie> [Re wiki-change:] I agree it's not, but I don't think it's really an OISC either.
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12:27:12 <esolangs> [[User:CatCatDeluxe]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83904&oldid=83859 * CatCatDeluxe * (-19)
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12:31:24 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83905&oldid=83819 * Aspwil * (+821) /* Notes */
12:48:31 <nakilon> as I asid, brctl could respond in private or notice
12:48:39 <nakilon> to avoid highlight
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12:56:35 <fizzie> I don't like bots responding in private when the trigger was public. But in any case the listing is now private-only.
13:22:15 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83906&oldid=83896 * Salpynx * (+129) /* Program Commands */ accumulator deltas
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13:43:42 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83907&oldid=83906 * Salpynx * (+43) /* Program Commands */ define x
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14:57:06 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83908&oldid=83905 * Aspwil * (+309) /* Syntax */
14:59:19 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83909&oldid=83908 * Aspwil * (+29) /* Notes */
15:04:36 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83910&oldid=83909 * Aspwil * (+426) /* Notes */
15:05:37 <wib_jonas> .oO(if only that occured to Gödel)
15:06:28 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83911&oldid=83910 * Aspwil * (+135) /* An Actual Dictionary */
15:07:55 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83912&oldid=83911 * Aspwil * (-5) /* Example */
15:08:49 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83913&oldid=83912 * Aspwil * (+16) /* Example */
15:09:06 <esolangs> [[Program Number System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83914&oldid=83913 * Aspwil * (+0) /* Syntax */
15:15:42 <esolangs> [[Trivial brainfuck substitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83915&oldid=80702 * Aspwil * (+27)
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15:27:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Salpynx/Braneflage]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83916 * Aspwil * (+147) Created page with "this is a really interesting idea, I would love to see it be completed. ~~~~"
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15:49:49 <esolangs> [[Stoplight]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83917&oldid=83903 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+321) Implement
15:54:31 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MathR * New user account
16:01:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83918&oldid=83879 * MathR * (+138) /* Introductions */
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16:13:43 <esolangs> [[User:MathR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83919 * MathR * (+40) Created page with "Hi I'm '''MathR''' and ''I like bread''."
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16:47:23 <b_jonas> there'll be a fun second wave starting around 2021-07-27 when all the libera nicks grabbed by the gold rush folks start to expire, and #libera will be overloaded by requests by other users to usurp them
16:53:26 <b_jonas> ok, so I have a silly question. suppose I want to render the logs of this channel in HTML, and want to assign a unique class to every nick so that I can assign unique full depth colors to them (and readers can customize those colors easily in browser side). should I use the nicks in the class names as is, which is valid but requires you to escape some characters in CSS, or should I translate the
16:53:32 <b_jonas> brackets and backslashes to letters according to some ISO-646 character set? and if the latter, should it be the finnish or the norwegian? what ISO-646 character set does New Zealand use?
16:54:55 <fizzie> I would say the Finnish, but I'm obviously biased.
16:57:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: what do I do with a "^" then?
16:57:10 <fizzie> Would you also lowercase them with the network's CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 rules, or just distinguish between case?
16:57:24 <b_jonas> ah, apparently you can map that to ü
16:57:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: I would make them case insensitive as in nicks that fold the same get the same class, but probably preserve the latest case that appears in the log in the class name
16:58:03 <b_jonas> or... hmm
16:58:16 <b_jonas> if I want to support user style overrides then that won't work
16:58:23 <b_jonas> then I'll just casefold them all to uppercase
16:59:24 <fizzie> I don't think its ü in ISO-646-FI proper, but I think it's all pretty flexible.
16:59:28 <fizzie> `` echo '[\]^{|}~' | iconv -f iso646-fi -t utf-8
16:59:29 <HackEso> ​ÄÖÅ^äöå‾
17:01:01 <fizzie> I think it's odd that Libera.Chat (the modern network) uses CASEMAPPING=rfc1459, while IRCnet (the agressively non-modern network that doesn't do services, and has half the open TLS-capable servers using expired certificates) uses CASEMAPPING=ascii.
17:01:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: freenode used to do ascii, but they changed it when they changed the irc software
17:02:17 <b_jonas> I don't know what they did to nick/channel registrations that clashed after
17:05:01 <fizzie> I did a survey of ircnet.clue.be, ircnet.hostsailor.com, ssl.irc.atw-inter.net, irc.swepipe.net and openirc.snt.utwente.nl in preparation of maybe switching to an opinionated TLS-only bouncer. The first two have a valid Let's Encrypt cert, but the third has a self-signed (though not expired) certificate, the fourth had a Let's Encrypt certificate for a completely different DNS name that had expired two
17:05:07 <fizzie> days ago, and the fifth had a Digicert-issued certificate that had expired in Sep 2020.
17:05:23 <fizzie> The last one also just closed the connection after TLS negotiation.
17:05:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: are those all ircnet servers?
17:05:28 <fizzie> Yeah.
17:06:08 <fizzie> I picked them from http://irc.tu-ilmenau.de/all_servers/?focus=1&open=1 which is supposedly automagically maintained by a crawler.
17:06:37 <fizzie> Back "home" it used to be the case that you just used your ISP's IRCnet server, and didn't have to worry about these kind of things.
17:07:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: ircnet is terrible. it has a hodge-podge of servers ran to different specifications, even the nicklen and chanlen restrictions are different on them, which is, you know, weird because they apply to nicks and #-channels that are global on the network (for &-channels it would make sense)
17:07:37 <b_jonas> and most of the servers are closed
17:07:47 <b_jonas> and many of the servers are sometimes working sometimes not
17:07:54 <b_jonas> I am connected but I don't like the place
17:07:56 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83920 * MathR * (+1928) Created page with "'''Jumping True''' is an esolang created by [[User:MathR|MathR]]. Its main particularity is that its conditional statement is based on the [[Truth-machine|truth-machine]]. It..."
17:08:08 <fizzie> I know, but it's still "the" network for me, so I don't want to drop off.
17:08:31 <b_jonas> freenode was "the" network for me.
17:08:48 <fizzie> I'm probably on more channels there than here, anyway. It's just that they're all utterly silent.
17:09:22 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83921&oldid=83920 * MathR * (-2)
17:09:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83922&oldid=83897 * MathR * (+19) /* J */
17:10:35 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83923&oldid=83921 * MathR * (+17)
17:13:20 <esolangs> [[Binary but also Brainfuck but also neither (BBABBAN)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83924 * Batata * (+4651) Created page with "'''Binary but also Brainfuck but also neither''' or '''BBABBAN''' for short (pronounced '''babn''') is an [[Esoteric_programming_language|esolang]] where, as the name..."
17:14:59 <oerjan> b_jonas: in my entirely unbiased opinion you should go with norwegian hth
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17:16:43 <oerjan> . o O ( BBABBAN IS YOU )
17:19:12 <fizzie> BBABBAN, is that like one of those rhyme schemes?
17:19:57 <fizzie> I guess usually it'd be written AABAABC though.
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17:33:24 <esolangs> [[User:MathR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83925&oldid=83919 * MathR * (+28)
17:34:06 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83926&oldid=83923 * MathR * (+4) /* Language overview */
17:34:26 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83927&oldid=83848 * Batata * (+65)
17:34:35 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83928&oldid=83927 * Batata * (+1)
17:34:40 <river> B AB A is You
17:35:11 <river> so
17:35:23 <river> I feel like this is slightly esoteric
17:36:29 <river> if you take length 10 binary strings (there's 1024 of them), 0000 occurs in 251 of them, 0101 occurs in 357 of them, 0011 occurs in 424 of them
17:37:06 <river> rephrased: flip a coin 10 times, how likely are you to get heads 4 times in a row? (about 25% chance) How likely are you to get heads heads tails tails (about 50% chance)
17:39:15 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83929&oldid=83926 * MathR * (+73)
17:39:25 <oerjan> > 424 / 1024 -- sounds a bit high
17:39:27 <lambdabot> 0.4140625
17:39:47 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83930&oldid=83929 * MathR * (-1) /* Language overview */
17:40:42 <river> roughly :P
17:40:44 <river> but still
17:40:54 <river> the fact these probabilities are different at all is pretty striking to me!
17:41:00 <river> I found this highly unintuitive
17:42:23 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83931&oldid=83930 * MathR * (+6) /* Examples */
17:43:36 <oerjan> hm...
17:44:55 <oerjan> river: i think it's related to the fact that some of those allow more simultaneous occurrences. like 0000000000 contains 0000 at 7 different spots
17:45:12 <oerjan> but you cannot have that many at once for 0011 or 0101
17:46:06 <river> yeah I think it is!
17:46:09 <oerjan> if you count the occurrences, i think it gets even
17:46:21 <river> autocorrelation factor of 0000 is full, 0101 is half, 0011 is none
17:46:50 <river> ah let me try that out
17:46:57 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83932&oldid=83826 * S1(210) * (+18)
17:47:27 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83933&oldid=83932 * S1(210) * (+9)
17:47:41 <b_jonas> river: yes, also if you flip a coin repeatedly until you first get one of two chosen infixes that you're listening to, and both infixes are the same length, it's possible that you'll more likely to encounter one of them first than the other
17:47:52 <b_jonas> which is also a bit unintuitive
17:49:19 <river> hmm i tweaked the program to count with multiplicity, but i still get different values
17:49:32 <river> they are close to but all higher than the original numbers
17:50:12 <oerjan> hm that's strange, i thought they would be equal by the linearity of expectation value
17:50:31 <oerjan> are you sure you counted all occurrences :P
17:51:20 <oerjan> specifically, my reasoning: you _must_ have the same probability of all the strings occuring in the _first_ position, and in the _second_ position, etc.
17:52:11 <oerjan> s/of all the strings/of any string/
17:54:43 <oerjan> > replicateM 10 "01"
17:54:44 <lambdabot> ["0000000000","0000000001","0000000010","0000000011","0000000100","000000010...
17:56:03 <river> https://bpa.st/B6QA here's an example of looking for aa vs ab in length 5 bitstrings
17:56:19 <river> aa occurs 23 times, ab occurs 32 times
17:56:31 <river> this definitely doesn't make sense to me
17:56:48 <zzo38> How to configure Firefox so that if the current URI is a "file:" URI that points to a EPUB file, to automatically prefix "jar:" and suffix "!/" on the URL?
17:56:56 <oerjan> river: oh i see. i meant occurrences could be _overlapping_ too.
17:57:22 <river> ah
17:57:28 <river> it's a mistake in my code
17:57:35 <river> i meant to count overlapping
17:57:35 <oerjan> (so aaaaa should give 4 aa, not 2)
17:57:37 <river> let me fix that
17:58:06 <river> the python count function is broken
18:01:14 <river> ok! fixed, now I get 32 in both cases!
18:01:42 <oerjan> yay!
18:07:53 <river> so what does this tell us... the number of times it occurs *is* equal - it's just that if a word has autocorrelation its going to happen in fewer runs, but more times per run
18:08:00 <river> for reasons?? that are unclear to me
18:08:23 <b_jonas> river: yes
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18:13:58 <river> tbh
18:14:03 <river> I feel like I just have 2 mysteries now
18:14:19 <river> why its equal when you could with multiplicity is not clear to me
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18:23:08 <oerjan> river: counting with multiplicity is the same as counting each occurence of the string at each position.
18:24:02 <oerjan> now this should give the same result if you do it in a different order: for each position, count the number of large strings which have the smaller string at that position.
18:25:13 <oerjan> but that is the same as, number of positions * 2 ^ (number of bits outside the smaller string)
18:25:17 <river> OMG
18:25:21 <river> thats so neat!!
18:26:10 <oerjan> yw
18:28:18 <b_jonas> there are two funny probability problems that we discussed on #esoteric after I brought them up, the chameleon one and a card game
18:28:26 <b_jonas> they're somewhere in the logs
18:30:37 <zzo38> Which ones are they? Do you remember it to copy it?
18:32:18 <b_jonas> I don't have links. I'll have to search for chameleon
18:35:49 <b_jonas> I should download the logs at some point to make searching esaier
18:37:21 <b_jonas> let me see... https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2016-10.html#lDQc
18:39:47 <b_jonas> which links to https://logs.esolangs.org/freenode-esoteric/2016-07.html#lhhc
18:52:16 <b_jonas> I can tell the problems again later if someone cares, with the cleaners proofs that we know now
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19:01:39 <zzo38> I am potentially interested in such things
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19:29:40 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83934&oldid=83928 * Batata * (+3)
19:30:00 <esolangs> [[User:Batata]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83935&oldid=83934 * Batata * (+1)
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19:40:49 <river> https://martingalemeasure.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/monkey-typing-abracadabra-14/
19:40:56 <river> monkey types randomly
19:40:59 <river> >Wow, the average time for the monkey to type  is actually longer than the average time to type .
19:41:12 <river> >Wow, the average time for the monkey to type ABA is actually longer than the average time to type ABC.
19:41:34 <river> does this align with the previous results? or contrast to them
19:43:54 <b_jonas> river: yes, I did mention that variant
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19:44:21 <b_jonas> well not quite
19:44:25 <b_jonas> I mentioned something similar
19:44:31 <b_jonas> you're right that it's not the same
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19:45:05 <b_jonas> isn't that backwards though?
19:45:17 <b_jonas> ABA should have a shorter average time to first type than ABC
19:45:38 <river> hmmm
19:56:50 <b_jonas> of course that only applies if the monkeys hit keys uniformly. in reality they might have thick fingers so it's difficult for them to press just one button, or they're hammering on the keyboard with their fists or something
19:56:58 <b_jonas> uniformly and independently
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20:08:07 <keegan> disappointed that the article does not involve actual experiments with monkeys
20:08:33 <river> hehe
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20:25:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:Glypho]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83936&oldid=8211 * Monochromeninja * (+1336) /* Python interpreter */ new section
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20:33:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Justiof * New user account
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20:41:28 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83937&oldid=83918 * Justiof * (+218) /* Introductions */
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20:55:53 <Corbin> I'm pondering using GNU Lightning. Do folks have anecdotes or opinions? One minor disappointment is that it seems that there's no AOT native-code emitter, so any intermediate/cached representations would have to be ad-hoc.
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21:01:40 <zzo38> I read about it before; I had never tried to use it though
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21:31:47 <esolangs> [[Counting Calculus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83938 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+1038) Created page with "= Counting Calculus = A programming language of which the primary way of doing mathematical calculation is by counting the amount of -conversions done in a lambda-calculus e..."
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21:33:26 <esolangs> [[Counting Calculus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83939&oldid=83938 * SoYouWantMeToDoSomethingButIWont * (+44)
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23:13:35 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83940&oldid=83907 * Salpynx * (+29) contract 'accumulator' amount
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23:24:38 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83941&oldid=83940 * Salpynx * (-12) /* Program Commands */ rearrange, not sure that's better
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2021-06-04
00:00:33 <esolangs> [[Counting Calculus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83942&oldid=83939 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+54) Categorize
00:02:32 <esolangs> [[User:Salpynx/Braneflage]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83943&oldid=83941 * Salpynx * (+2) /* Program Commands */ that looks better. Hopefully it's correct too.
00:20:52 <nakilon> int-e how does Wuste Ebenen translate? https://i.imgur.com/vbqqJtI.png
00:21:57 <int-e> Wüste = desert, Ebene(n) = plain(s)
00:23:33 <nakilon> because there is a obscene word Ebenya meaning "something fucking far/disconnected", that is traditionally considered made out of such word as "ebat'" "fuck", "zaebenit" "fucking make smth"; but now seeing the word "Ebenen" on the map I'm thinking that the etymology is not like people use think
00:24:42 <nakilon> hah, cool, because that's exactly how another map says: https://i.imgur.com/9D72Uk2.png
00:32:03 <keegan> ah so it's similar to the English term "bumfuck" / "bumfuck nowhere"?
00:32:11 <nakilon> Wiktionary says that "ебать" is protoslav "*jěbati" and is the same in Serbian, Czheh, Slovak, Pol; and is related to sanskrít . यभति (yabhati) and ancient greek. οἴφω, οἰφέω; but now I don't believe Wiktionary that ебеня is from there, because it's too close to your word
00:33:21 <keegan> found one reference to the russian word on twitter https://twitter.com/cybersandwitch/status/1285193689732718593
00:33:31 <keegan> i actually have a dead-tree book of photos of soviet bus stops
00:33:38 <nakilon> what Wiktionary says on German Ebene: From Middle High German ebene, from Old High German ebanī, from Proto-Germanic *ebnaz, whence also Old English efen (English even), Old Norse jafn.
00:33:41 <keegan> i saw it at a bookstore and was immediately like yes I need this
00:34:28 <nakilon> keegan how do I see the parent tweet?
00:36:25 <nakilon> either I'm idiot in twitter or it's deleted (
00:42:49 <b_jonas> in C, do we know what format __DATE__ will have after year 10000? I want to use it to give a likely branch hint in a date formatting routine so that before 9995 or so the branch that writes a four digit year is considered likely, but after 10000 the branch that writes a five digit year is considered likely instead
00:43:41 <keegan> nakilon: https://twitter.com/ItsDanThomas/status/1284808430167957504
00:44:03 <keegan> b_jonas: excellent idea
00:44:31 <b_jonas> I guess I could just have something in the build script that detects the date instead and defines macros accordingly, and then test those macros instead of __DATE__
00:44:43 <keegan> yes, this is the book I have https://twitter.com/ItsDanThomas/status/1285306157645660161 (vol 2 only)
00:45:04 <nakilon> keegan heh you'll never find such stops
00:50:38 <keegan> I admire your long-term planning b_jonas
00:51:39 <keegan> nakilon: I mean, I probably won't
00:51:44 <keegan> because I'm unlikely to visit Russia any time soon
00:51:52 <nakilon> these blogs posts copypasting these images made it impossible to google real examples lol
00:51:56 <keegan> heh
00:52:40 <fizzie> Preprocessor Macro of the Long Now.
00:54:42 <nakilon> keegan this is a little bit closer to reality https://www.goingthewholehogg.com/soviet-bus-stops/
00:55:30 <nakilon> but really it's just 1-3 walls with a roof and maybe a little piece of mosaic
00:55:47 <nakilon> real bus stop just won't be photographed and posted in web
00:56:45 <nakilon> and it would be by magnitude harder to find soviet one in Russia than in Ukraine or maybe Moldova
00:57:53 <keegan> I see
00:59:40 <nakilon> oh nice, the Yandex Images search is expectedly more relevant and shows some real things instead of just top-10 blog articles: https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%20%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%85
01:00:24 <nakilon> this is it: https://yandex.ru/images/search?pos=74&p=1&img_url=https%3A%2F%2Fi7.photo.2gis.com%2Fimages%2Fgeo%2F0%2F30258560046534811_308c.jpg&text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B2+%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%85&rpt=simage
01:00:44 <pikhq> keegan: well there's a subject i didn't realize i was interested in but i absolutely am now
01:00:45 <pikhq> :3
01:02:09 <nakilon> and there are all Ukrainian as I see https://bugaga.ru/jokes/1146723770-sdelano-v-sssr-avtobusnye-ostanovki.html
02:09:40 <nakilon> heh, about privacy: 5 years ago here https://www.google.com/chrome/browser/desktop/ there was a Chrome, i.e. not a Google Chrome but almost a Chromium, that is almost without telemetry and stuff; but now it's Google Chrome there, and the FreeSMUG project was closed in 2020 too
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02:27:36 <zzo38> I write software without telemetry; the telemetry is a waste of energy.
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02:48:18 <Corbin> Is there an esolang which is just a presentation of a Turing category? I found the language "Finite Groups", and I'm thinking of a cross between that and Cat/Kitten/Grace/etc.
02:48:44 <nakilon> my QuakeLive browser extension was sending users usernames to my Spreadsheet so I knew who used it; Google didn't catch me with it
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03:37:59 <esolangs> [[Talk:Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83944&oldid=83833 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+46) /* Challenge */
03:42:10 <esolangs> [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83945&oldid=75658 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+254)
03:46:24 <nakilon> wtf does kolmogorov have to do with hello world
03:52:58 <Corbin> Some numbers are more compressible than others, in the Kolmogorov sense that they can be printed out by relatively short programs. "Hello world" is a number. I think that that's all that they're thinking of.
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05:26:07 <zzo38> Do you think that this trademark license is suitable? http://sprunge.us/iagkJb
06:08:18 <int-e> cd: Hi ;-)
06:08:24 <cd> hiii
06:08:48 <cd> i've been (trying) to run a hb instance for a bit, damn thing's fiddly but it works
06:08:51 <cd> :P
06:09:00 <cd> thought it'd be funny to see what that network makes of it
06:09:02 <int-e> congrats
06:15:26 <cd> int-e: atm the hiccups it has are 1) I didn't fully fix the ping code so it randomly times out on pissnet (I'm tired gimmie a breakkkkk), and 2) very very rarely umlbox init hangs for no apparent reason, and I can't seem to ever repro it
06:16:04 <int-e> cd: sounds like fun
06:18:58 <cd> `` mknod stall p && cat stall
06:19:08 * cd is curious if this is the first "oops eso broke" in a while
06:20:24 <cd> fizzie: ^
06:26:32 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83946&oldid=83881 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-1)
06:27:11 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83947&oldid=83946 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+0)
06:27:18 <HackEso> No output.
06:28:06 <cd> oh hey, a no output
06:28:09 <cd> only uh
06:28:14 <cd> nearly 10min later
06:29:30 <int-e> `sleep 3600
06:32:23 <HackEso> No output.
06:33:46 <int-e> generous, but not quite 10 minutes :)
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09:43:46 <fizzie> Ooh, first-ever recorded CHGHOST: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-06-04.html#lmb
09:43:50 <fizzie> And how come that takes long? Sure, it's a blocking read, but so's many other things, it should react to SIGTERM just as usual.
09:47:07 <nakilon> that's just cloaking, right? had to be recorded earlier
09:47:27 <fizzie> It was recorded as a simulated quit-and-rejoin pair, not as a CHGHOST.
09:48:07 <fizzie> I just turned on the extension that allows it to report it as a single thing, is all.
09:48:18 <nakilon> I see
09:49:24 <FireFly> lol
09:49:53 <fizzie> FireFly: You made history. (Not in a very big way, but still.)
09:50:33 <fizzie> I vaguely remember there used to be something screwy about how umlbox handles time, maybe it's just that its notion of 30 seconds gets real skewed.
09:53:24 <fizzie> `` sleep 1; echo a second
09:53:26 <HackEso> a second
09:53:32 <fizzie> `` sleep 2; echo two seconds
09:53:35 <HackEso> two seconds
09:53:42 <fizzie> `` sleep 4; echo four seconds
09:53:47 <HackEso> four seconds
09:54:05 <fizzie> That seems to check out, roughly. But last time it broke when I went for five, somehow.
09:54:12 <fizzie> `` sleep 5; echo five seconds
09:54:24 <HackEso> five seconds
09:54:36 <fizzie> Well, that was definitely more than 5.
09:54:40 <fizzie> `` sleep 10; echo ten seconds
09:55:14 <FireFly> the world's longest ten seconds
09:55:35 <int-e> ...nine...
09:56:30 <fizzie> Yeah. I wonder if it's something like, its "wall" clock only runs when there's actually CPU activity, so while a busy-loop gets terminated roughly in the allotted 30 seconds, an entirely idle wait can run for much longer.
09:58:14 <int-e> ...eight...
09:58:59 <fizzie> Still running, but I don't have any way to tell how far it's gotten.
09:59:27 <Taneb> If someone puts in a busy loop will that be enough for the sleep 10 to catch up
09:59:31 <HackEso> ten seconds
09:59:49 <fizzie> It'd be a separate UML instance, so probably not, they should be fully independent.
10:00:02 <int-e> ...seven...
10:00:52 <Taneb> 4 minutes and 51 seconds
10:02:16 <fizzie> "Real-time Clock makes UML time deltas match wall clock deltas. This should normally be enabled." Says some random excerpt from an UML book from 15 years ago.
10:02:55 <int-e> I lost count.
10:03:07 <int-e> ...five...
10:03:07 <int-e> ;-)
10:08:10 <fizzie> I don't see anything relevant in the kernel config options, really.
10:11:39 <fizzie> There apparently used to be an option called UML_REAL_TIME_CLOCK. But I can find no sign of it in the kernel I've got there (4.19), which might mean it's either no longer an option because it's now on by default, or it's no longer an option because it just isn't supported any more.
10:11:51 <fizzie> https://cateee.net/lkddb/web-lkddb/UML_REAL_TIME_CLOCK.html says "found in Linux kernels: 2.6.9–2.6.23" which was pretty long time ago.
10:12:10 <nakilon> `` rasel @
10:12:12 <HackEso> No output.
10:12:33 <nakilon> ah it responded already
10:13:43 <fizzie> Fortunately timeouts don't really block other non-writing commands from going ahead, so it's not a huge deal if there's a stuck idle process for a few minutes. Still, would be nice to have time work more properly.
10:13:59 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just go with the cheap fix and add an external timeout.
10:14:53 <int-e> `cat ../canary
10:14:53 <HackEso> Why are you taking Polly down into the mine? Polly's a parrot, not a canary! And where's my cracker?
10:15:12 <fizzie> Although there's this whole fancy thing with the internal one, where it has a two-phase thing: after 30 seconds, it sends TERM, and then gives the process a 5-second grace period to stop cleanly before sending KILL to it.
10:15:45 <int-e> shouldn't there be a watchdog outside
10:16:29 <fizzie> I guess I could try to figure out how to trigger the soft timeout from the outside, and then have an even harder one (just terminate the UML kernel) if both of those fail.
10:17:53 <int-e> And of course there's the whole R/W-lock thing that we underatand well enough to make this completely blocking.
10:18:11 <fizzie> I mean, it still times out *eventually*.
10:18:13 * int-e shrugs
10:18:35 <int-e> ...0.23111...
10:18:56 <fizzie> In case you missed it, the "10 seconds" did already finish.
10:19:27 <int-e> ah yes, I ddi
10:19:29 <int-e> did
10:19:44 <int-e> what a pity though
10:20:05 <int-e> but 5 minutes is a good effort
10:20:55 <fizzie> I think I'll probably add an extra TTY to signal in the TERM and KILL timeout triggers from the outside (where I expect time probably does run in a linear fashion), and then add one more phase which just kills the UML process. That'll simplify the init too.
10:21:04 <fizzie> But not now.
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11:23:11 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83948&oldid=83947 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+0)
11:28:29 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83949&oldid=83948 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+120) Added a link to my python interpreter
11:29:43 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83950&oldid=83949 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+4) Put the links into an unordered list.
11:30:44 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83951&oldid=83950 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+18) Added the page to the 2021 category.
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12:37:09 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83952 * ResU * (+729) Created page with "NOTE is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. It uses one-based indexing. ==Arrays== Arrays are created like this: <code>example = Hello, world!</code> In this case, <c..."
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12:47:05 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83953&oldid=83952 * ResU * (+21) /* Commands */
12:54:35 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83954&oldid=83953 * ResU * (+35) /* Commands */
13:23:59 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83955&oldid=83954 * ResU * (+395) /* Examples */
13:24:32 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83956&oldid=83955 * ResU * (+0) /* Examples */
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13:27:37 <esolangs> [[Rayuela]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83957&oldid=82823 * Xanman12321 * (+0) minor fix
14:20:37 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83958&oldid=83931 * MathR * (+56)
14:26:11 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83959&oldid=83958 * MathR * (+17)
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15:07:51 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83960&oldid=83877 * ResU * (+15)
15:52:21 <esolangs> [[User:Epidemic7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83961&oldid=83624 * Epidemic7 * (-113)
16:00:17 <esolangs> [[Jumping True]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83962&oldid=83959 * MathR * (+24) /* External resources */
16:00:44 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83963 * Epidemic7 * (+308) Created page with "[[Category: Joke languages]] 25 bytes o: is an esoteric programming language designed to be as least functional as possible with the smallest compiler. To it's name, it's 25 b..."
16:04:08 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83964&oldid=83963 * Epidemic7 * (-5)
16:04:54 <esolangs> [[25 bytes o:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83965&oldid=83964 * Epidemic7 * (+68)
16:16:19 <esolangs> [[FALSE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83966&oldid=58762 * MathR * (+0) Changed "Computational Class" to "Computational class"
16:48:13 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83967&oldid=83845 * ResU * (+38) /* NOTE */
17:10:12 <keegan> `coins
17:10:18 <HackEso> 2ivncoin wilsonacoin q-ballendsartrecoin mesolammalcoin draysnaterreludenjarercoin bakcoin haifficidumbscoin owlacoin disorcoin witcoin lockcoin tsummagemoneycoin bincoin befernogcoin fcccoin thrugcoin fruntecoin cronycoin adedfourcoin uixcoin
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18:35:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83968&oldid=83270 * ResU * (+186)
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19:39:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83969&oldid=83968 * Ais523 * (+181) /* Category:No input */ [[:Category:Output only]]?
19:50:28 <fizzie> Hmm, what's the standard clean C way to wait for either a child process to terminate or a file descriptor to become ready for reading, whichever happens first? I know on modern Linux there's pidfd_open, but that's Linux >= 5.3, and this should work on 4.19. Is it just "poll on the fd and rely on SIGCHLD to cause the poll to fail with EINTR"? And do I need to change the default disposition from ignore to
19:50:34 <fizzie> something else for SIGCHLD to interrupt the poll? Hmm, I guess I can just try it out.
19:53:47 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83970&oldid=83743 * Dnm * (+713) Deadfish in Rexx
20:12:25 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> Maybe I'll just go with the cheap fix and add an external timeout." => what? that's not a cheap fix, that's the proper method, because you trust the outer machine more than the inner one
20:12:52 <b_jonas> you can also have a timeout in the inner machine so it can prepare to shut down more properly, but it's the outer one that you rely on
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20:14:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can use signalfd if you wish
20:15:06 <b_jonas> or let libev or some other event loop figure out the internals and you only tell it what events you want it to wake you up for
20:16:36 <fizzie> It's a cheap fix in the sense that it doesn't fix the behavior of time measurement. I agree it's proper to have (also) an external timeout, but I was really just talking about the specific problem of being unable to measure time.
20:17:07 <fizzie> Not that I can think of any particularly important use cases for having HackEso do accurate timing.
20:19:17 <b_jonas> but yes, you can use signals: sigaction to set a signal handler on SIGCHLD, block the signal with sigsetmask, wait nonblocking to check child still alive, if it is then poll on filehandle which temporarily unblocks the signal without a race condition. but this kind of thing is messy, I'
20:19:29 <b_jonas> d rather libev handles it, at least if this is supposed to run on Linux
20:20:44 <b_jonas> also the incantations are different in a multithreaded program
20:21:06 <fizzie> It does run on Linux (though as part of init).
20:22:06 <b_jonas> because threads have separate per-thread signal masks, and signals can be directed to either a single thread or to the whole process, etc
20:22:26 <fizzie> Well, this is a single-threaded case.
20:23:43 <b_jonas> the alternative is to have both ends of an internal pipe or eventfd, have the signal write to that as well as to memory, and make every poll wait on its reader side, so that if the signal arrives, that poll wakes up from that, even if the signal arrives shortly before the poll call, then you needn't modify the sigprocmask
20:24:13 <b_jonas> this is what libev uses to allow you to wake the event loop up from what's possibly another thread of the same process
20:24:20 <b_jonas> (it also works from the same thread)
20:37:37 <b_jonas> there might be other solutions but I don't know them
21:00:35 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83971&oldid=83956 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-64) /* Examples */ Change code to pre
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21:05:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83972&oldid=83969 * ResU * (+187)
21:06:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83973&oldid=83972 * ResU * (-4) /* Category:No input */
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21:21:06 <esolangs> [[Commlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83974 * Monochromeninja * (+4619) :)
21:21:40 <esolangs> [[User:Monochromeninja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83975&oldid=81516 * Monochromeninja * (+46)
21:31:12 <fizzie> `` sleep 3600 # this should take roughly 30 seconds
21:31:52 <HackEso> No output.
21:33:16 <fizzie> 22:31:12..22:31:52 as observed from here. That's so suspiciously close to 40 seconds, it's making me think that (unlike at home) the 30- and 35-second soft and medium-hard timeout signals did not in fact work, and only the 40-second actually-hard timeout made it stop.
21:35:03 <fizzie> The way it is supposed to work now is, 30 seconds after starting the UML kernel, we write a 0 byte to one of its TTY inputs; if it hasn't terminated in 5 more seconds; we write a 1 byte; and if it *still* doesn't terminate in 5 more seconds, we send a SIGKILL to all the UML processes.
21:37:39 <fizzie> And the umlbox init's "run" command handler is supposed to watch that TTY for input; if it reads a 0, it sends a SIGTERM to the running command; and if it reads a 1 (well, any non-zero byte), it just does a `reboot(LINUX_REBOOT_CMD_POWER_OFF);`, which is what it normally does to gracefully stop.
21:38:43 <fizzie> It does work at home, terminating at the 30-second mark. But of course it's a different system.
21:42:07 <fizzie> Hmm. It also does terminate in exactly 10 seconds, and cleanly, if I just manually execute something like `umlbox --no-stdin --base-mounts --cwd / --timeout 10 --verbose /bin/sleep 3600` on the HackEso system. Which is very very close to the command it runs under multibot, except with a bunch of extra mounts and environment variables and resource limits.
21:43:01 <fizzie> Hrm. It takes 20 seconds if I omit `--verbose`. But if I omit `--verbose`, I don't know what's going on.
21:43:17 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83976&oldid=83951 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+9)
21:44:10 <fizzie> Actually, maybe part of what --verbose does enables the read from that TTY. Because I used just the debugging console's "input" side, since it had no other existing purpose.
21:47:28 <fizzie> The flag does change whether I issue a tcsetattr command to configure it to raw mode. Maybe it's doing some sort of terminal line buffering otherwise.
21:50:50 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=83977 * ResU * (+474) Created page with "Alivefish was created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. It is very similar to [[Deadfish]] and [[AEWNN]]. ==Commands== {| class=wikitable !Command !Description |- |<code>v-</code> |Is..."
21:51:43 <fizzie> Yeah, that seems plausible. I managed to actually fix it by just adding a newline after the 0 or 1. Hmm. Can't decide whether to go with that fix, or just make it use a dedicated TTY.
21:52:41 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83978&oldid=83960 * ResU * (+20)
22:00:59 <fizzie> `` sleep 3600 # this should be a little closer to 30 seconds, but who knows really
22:01:35 <HackEso> No output.
22:02:30 <fizzie> 23:00:59..23:01:35 as seen from here. Hmm, that's closer to 35 seconds now, rather than 30.
22:03:20 <fizzie> But `time .../umlbox --no-stdin --base-mounts --cwd / --timeout 10 /bin/sleep 3600` says 0m10.255s, which is much closer. Odd.
22:06:11 <fizzie> Oh, maybe there's something about invoking /hackenv/bin/` that makes sending SIGTERM to the primary child process (the shell?) not actually terminate the whole thing. Yeah, because we still wait for the cat (and don't send it SIGTERM in case the command had something to output), and there's bound to be some other subprocess then keeping the cat's input pipe not EOF. I bet that's it.
22:07:37 <fizzie> Eh, it's probably good enough. I guess I could get a little closer by making the actual command child start a new process group, and then do kill(-child, SIGTERM) instead of kill(child, SIGTERM), but I think maybe we're at the point of diminishing returns here.
22:10:16 <fizzie> `perl -esleep 3600; # if that hypothesis is right, this should be closer still to 30 seconds
22:10:46 <HackEso> No output.
22:11:20 <fizzie> 23:10:16..23:10:46, yay.
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22:53:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: if the first signal is SIGTERM and it's delivered only to the shell, not to sleep, then it's no wonder it has no effect. you should try SIGHUP instead.
22:53:49 <b_jonas> or send to the whole process group, or to the foreground process group of the terminal, or to every process except init since you're shutting down the whole machine
22:53:59 <b_jonas> but even so send a SIGHUP after the SIGTERM\
22:54:11 <b_jonas> or don't, the SIGKILL will kill everything
22:55:14 <b_jonas> ah, you found the bug
22:58:15 <zzo38> I think that it might be useful to define some new signals, such as SIGMEM (normally does nothing, but for some programming languages it might be possible for the standard library to reduce memory usage) and SIGOOM (normally terminates the process; if it isn't terminated and there still isn't enough memory, then it is forcibly terminated anyways) and SIGUSR3.
22:58:37 <zzo38> (That is not applicable to your specific case, but still I think it might be of some use for other things)
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23:48:26 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83979&oldid=83977 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+38) /* Commands */ Seems to have them
23:48:44 <esolangs> [[Alivefish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83980&oldid=83979 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Hello, world! */ cat
23:52:39 <esolangs> [[Truth Machine (language)]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83981&oldid=83878 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Confused formatted cats
23:53:37 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83982&oldid=83520 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+51) Confusion
2021-06-05
00:41:35 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83983&oldid=83976 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+426) Added a calculator program.
00:42:43 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83984&oldid=83983 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+2) Fixed spelling error
00:49:59 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83985&oldid=83984 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+8) Added indents to make things more pleasing.
01:18:44 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83986&oldid=83985 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-4)
02:21:09 <esolangs> [[Memfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83987&oldid=46148 * Caenbe * (+101) Linked implementation.
02:39:19 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Danya02 * New user account
02:43:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83988&oldid=83937 * Danya02 * (+224)
02:47:41 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83989&oldid=82934 * Caenbe * (+98) Added Memfractal
03:05:10 <zzo38> My idea of cryptographic hash is: let d[4...11] = message block; let d[12...13] = sequence number; let d[14...15] = constant; chacha20(d); let t[4...15] = t[4...15] xor d[4...15]; chacha20(t); (It is not the final hash though) (Also, it is not meant for actual use since so far is only being the idea/experimental)
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03:46:31 <nakilon> maybe I should review the RASEL specification to change ASCII with some 0..255 encoding
03:47:17 <nakilon> it's kind of undefined where it will (and it probably will) crash if you send 128..255 to stdin
03:47:35 <zzo38> Another coding is the PC character coding
03:49:10 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1 & .@
03:49:20 <velik> output: "1 ", exit code: 0
03:49:51 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin 1 ~ .@
03:49:52 <velik> output: "49 ", exit code: 0
03:50:00 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin Ы ~ .@
03:50:21 <nakilon> lol 06:50:02 <velik> thread error: #<Net::HTTPInternalServerError 500 Internal Server Error readbody=true>
04:10:26 <zzo38> Better is probably don't care about the encoding just ensure that bytes outside of the ASCII range can still be received.
04:17:57 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83990&oldid=81572 * Danya02 * (+3972) /* Words */ Major refactor of text to make wordings more specific and helpful as documentation.
04:18:59 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83991&oldid=83990 * Danya02 * (+1) /* Words */ Closing unmatched code block.
04:44:03 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83992&oldid=83991 * Danya02 * (+1568) /* Infinite loop */ Describing how the infinite loop works.
04:47:36 <nakilon> I'm currently adding the -multiline to \rasel
04:47:42 <esolangs> [[Baba Is You]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83993&oldid=83992 * Danya02 * (+99) /* Operator NOT */ Adding notice about X is not X.
04:47:52 <nakilon> but idk how to make the multiline stdin ..D
04:53:17 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83994&oldid=83970 * Dnm * (+595) Deadfish in Hot Soup Processor
05:15:04 <nakilon> wtf, I want to test the endpoint but printf...
05:15:06 <nakilon> $ printf '-stdin 1 & .@\n'
05:15:07 <nakilon> -bash: printf: -s: invalid option
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05:18:21 <nakilon> ok
05:18:23 <nakilon> $ curl -X POST -d $(printf %s '-stdin 1 \& .@' | base64) http://localhost:8080
05:18:23 <nakilon> output: 1 , exit code: 0
05:25:51 <nakilon> $ curl -X POST -d $(printf %s '-stdin|2|-multiline|& v >.@| >3v' | base64) http://localhost:8080
05:25:51 <nakilon> output: 3 , exit code: 2
05:26:20 <nakilon> I removed the space between the '-stdin' and '<separator>'
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06:40:44 <nakilon> yeah, doesn't look like Libera accepts 510 bytes
06:41:28 <nakilon> privmsg = "PRIVMSG #{addr} :#{msg}"
06:41:34 <nakilon> privmsg[-4..-1] = "..." until privmsg.bytesize <= 510
06:41:43 <nakilon> and I don't see the trailing "..."
06:42:47 <nakilon> 31 bytes are lost
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07:08:54 <nakilon> \rasel :,01--:G1G//-?#@
07:08:55 <velik> output: [NUL]<CTCP>[LF][CR] !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ, exit code: 255
07:09:08 <nakilon> \rasel -stdin|10|-multiline|1&$:?v:1-3\$/1\| >$11\/.@
07:09:09 <velik> output: 3628800 , exit code: 0
07:13:19 <nakilon> \help rasel
07:13:19 <velik> \rasel <code>; \rasel -stdin<sep><stdin><sep><code>; \rasel -multiline<sep><code>; \rasel -stdin<sep><stdin><sep>-multiline<sep><code>; don't forget the '@' or it will timeout; timelimit=30s; https://esolangs.org/wiki/RASEL
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07:18:11 <esolangs> [[Velik]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83995&oldid=83636 * Nakilon * (+4) added -multiline example
07:19:43 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83996&oldid=83995 * Nakilon * (-4) the output isn't passed through String#inspect anymore thanks to more correct sanitizing in IRC library
07:48:11 <fizzie> nakilon: It does accept exactly 510 bytes, it's just that the limit is for the whole thing, not what you might think of as "the message". When seen by *other* clients, the entire ":nick!user@host PRIVMSG #channel :blah blah blah" must fit into 510 bytes.
07:49:10 <nakilon> oh
07:50:42 <nakilon> 'velik!~velik@62.241.154.104.bc.googleusercontent.com' is 52 bytes long though
07:52:27 <fizzie> > length ":nakilon!~nakilon@user/nakilon "
07:52:28 <lambdabot> 31
07:52:33 <fizzie> Possibly you were measuring that instead.
07:52:41 <fizzie> (I don't know how you got to 31.)
08:00:01 <nakilon> hmmm, somehow my second bot instance has shorter hostnam
08:00:11 <nakilon> /whois velik2
08:00:50 <nakilon> ah, sure, it's from my home machine
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08:01:21 <nakilon> https://dpaste.org/cAp6/slim
08:02:16 <nakilon> 510, something close
08:05:03 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83997&oldid=72117 * MathR * (+17)
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08:09:17 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83998&oldid=83997 * MathR * (-9)
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08:24:30 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=83999&oldid=83986 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+166) Added infobox
08:24:52 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84000&oldid=83999 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-1) Fixed spelling mistake
08:25:13 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84001&oldid=84000 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+1) Fixed spelling mistake
08:29:29 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84002&oldid=84001 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+86) Edited infobox
08:30:49 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84003&oldid=84002 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-3) Changed the implementations section. Re-arranged the implementations in the list.
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09:32:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Grs * New user account
09:47:36 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84004&oldid=83988 * Grs * (+117)
09:49:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84005&oldid=84004 * Grs * (+6)
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11:33:57 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84006 * Grs * (+12488) Created page with "Not to be confused with [[OneLine]] or [[Oneline]]<br><br> OLNMLN or OneLineNoMoreLinesNeeded is a programming language where everything is written in one line! It was written..."
11:36:35 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84007&oldid=84006 * Grs * (+2)
11:37:01 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84008&oldid=84007 * Grs * (-1)
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11:41:06 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84009&oldid=84008 * Grs * (+54)
11:42:50 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84010&oldid=84009 * Grs * (+81)
11:45:17 <esolangs> [[User:Grs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84011 * Grs * (+34) Created page with "Hello everyone! I made [[OLNMLN]]!"
11:50:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84012&oldid=83922 * Grs * (+13) /* O */
12:05:21 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84013&oldid=84010 * Grs * (-16)
12:09:40 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84014&oldid=84013 * Grs * (+108)
12:12:53 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84015&oldid=84014 * Grs * (+8)
12:15:55 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84016&oldid=84015 * Grs * (+108)
12:19:03 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84017&oldid=84016 * Grs * (+81)
12:20:56 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84018&oldid=84017 * Grs * (+41)
12:21:45 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84019&oldid=84018 * Grs * (-4)
12:22:05 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84020&oldid=83631 * Tomhe * (+1) /* The FlipJump CPU */
13:08:03 <esolangs> [[DimensionDoors]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84021&oldid=83998 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Should probably be removed
13:08:48 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84022&oldid=84019 * Grs * (+33)
13:09:20 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84023&oldid=84022 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-5) /* How it works */ Tpyo
13:11:37 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84024&oldid=84023 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) /* Interpretation of code */ Categories/ul
13:15:40 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84025&oldid=84024 * Grs * (+41)
13:17:16 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84026&oldid=84025 * Grs * (+4)
13:22:35 <nakilon> wanna make \ruby repl too, but since it would need proper sandboxing for file system and network and since it appears that it's not really possible to do docker in a docker, I have to read a ton of boring sysadmin docs about network isolation
13:23:23 <nakilon> so it's not gonna be soon
13:24:31 <nakilon> but when I make it would be trivial to add any kind of repl to it
13:25:00 <nakilon> I mean any language interpreter
13:32:54 -!- Soni has changed nick to queeries.
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13:48:47 <fizzie> Here's the scow-est thing about the IRC message length limit: if a client is using the (deprecated) identify-msg capability, which adds a '-' or '+' prefix to every PRIVMSG/NOTICE body indicating whether the sender was identified to services or not, that decreases the maximum available size by one. And there's no possible way a bot can know if the recipient (or *any* recipient when sending to a channel)
13:48:53 <fizzie> has that on. So it has to either pessimistically assume and send one byte less it could, or just accept that if someone does use it, they might get the last byte truncated.
13:48:59 <fizzie> (Fortunately that extension's pretty dead by now.)
13:49:31 <fizzie> I was sort of wondering about turning on "account-tag" for #esolangs logs, because then you could validate whether someone using a nickname was doing so legitimately, when reading the logs, but I don't know if that would *really* be worth the hassle.
13:56:13 <fizzie> (Also I don't know how I'd present it when rendering. It's easy to come up with ways to indicate a single bit of information, but that doesn't quite suffice for the case where account != nickname.)
14:05:24 <oerjan> hm...
14:05:48 <oerjan> fizzie: mouseover text?
14:09:43 <fizzie> I guess there's that. I could add a superscript '?' between the nickname and the closing '>' for unidentified, and a superscript '*' with mouseover text denoting the account for the mismatch case, and leave the unannotated version for the common case where both are the same. Though it's not like impostors have been a particular problem.
14:13:29 <nakilon> probably not worth it
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14:18:56 <esolangs> [[A?!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84027&oldid=67699 * Grs * (-2) Fixed some grammar issues
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14:45:50 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84028&oldid=84026 * Grs * (+54)
14:46:33 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84029&oldid=84028 * Grs * (+1)
14:53:17 <esolangs> [[OneLineNoMoreLinesNeeded]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84030 * Grs * (+20) Redirected page to [[OLNMLN]]
14:59:12 <esolangs> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84031&oldid=63534 * MathR * (+279) /* Every valid command in W with explanations (inputs replaced with X) */
15:01:58 <esolangs> [[W]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84032&oldid=84031 * MathR * (+188) /* Error codes */
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15:52:54 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84033&oldid=84029 * Grs * (+14) Added output for example at stop command.
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16:42:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84034&oldid=76190 * Caenbe * (+440) /* Computational Class */ Category proposal
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17:01:30 <nakilon> hmmm
17:02:16 <nakilon> there are operations on top of the stack, and there are some stack-based languages that have multiple stacks with operations of, for example, swapping top two stacks
17:02:34 <nakilon> imagine the stack to be 2 dimensional
17:03:01 <nakilon> so there is the zero-corner and two axes
17:03:29 <nakilon> so the "swap" instruction would swap two stacks on either of two axes
17:04:15 <nakilon> or actually it can always swap by the same axis but there would be an instruction of transposing the stack
17:04:48 <esolangs> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84035&oldid=79331 * Caenbe * (+271) Completed PDA equivalence proof and added category
17:05:32 <zzo38> Forth has two stacks (a data stack and return stack), although some implementations have some additional stacks also
17:09:58 <oerjan> istr befunge-98 has something called a "stack stack"
17:10:34 <nakilon> yep, but there are different sets of operations on the top stack and on the stack of stacks
17:10:35 <fizzie> It does, though there aren't that many operations that operate on any but the topmost stack.
17:11:11 <oerjan> i guess it probably doesn't have a transpose command :P
17:11:18 <fizzie> You can push on a new stack, pop off an old stack, and then there's one bulk transfer operation to either direction, that's about it.
17:12:05 <fizzie> Also modifications of the stack stack annoyingly also modify the storage origin (that g/p coordinates are relative to), which isn't always that convenient.
17:12:23 <oerjan> huh
17:13:21 <fizzie> The sequence of instructions to do either of those on its own (just change the offset, or manipulate the stack stack) is annoyingly convoluted, though doable.
17:14:10 <esolangs> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84036&oldid=84035 * Caenbe * (+250) /* Computational class */ A little more detail
17:14:46 <fizzie> The "push a new stack" instruction { sets the new offset to the location of the next instruction executed after the {, somewhat bizarrely; it also pushes the old offset onto the old stack, so that } can read it from there. So a suitable {...} combo (with a bit of stack manipulation in-between) can set an arbitrary storage offset.
17:16:10 <fizzie> 0{<y><x>02-u0}$$ or something along those lines, assuming a two-dimensional Funge-98.
17:18:12 <nakilon> I guess if you change all the instructions to work on the stack-stack level it won't work well though; I guess you'll want to push just a single value, not the whole vector of them, and it doesn't seem to be emulatable; so there should be some universal instruction modifier to "enable the stack-stack mode for the next instruction" or a defined
17:18:12 <nakilon> subset of instructions that are modifiable
17:23:31 <nakilon> need to find some other useful uses of transpose though, not just for the swap two top stacks instruction
17:24:58 <fizzie> How does transpose work with stacks of different sizes? Is it just assumed to be an infinite expanse of 0s beyond the bottom, like a Befunge stack?
17:25:43 <nakilon> I couldn't implement the brainfuck in rasel because it needs at least two stacks -- one for befunge runtime and one for the stack of [] loops
17:26:07 <nakilon> yep, automatically expand to make the rectangle
17:28:12 <nakilon> the potential "push the N value onto the every stack" would either work in a way that demands a strict definition of how the stacks expand or in the way of lazy pushes
17:29:22 <nakilon> i.e. when you push a new stack of Ns it's infinitely long and when you need to expand another axis it should remember to push additional Ns when needed
17:30:35 <nakilon> (still need to find a use case of such N-stack-push though)
17:38:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't turn it on please. if you want to get that information, get it from the other extensions.
17:38:55 <fizzie> What's the problem with it?
17:39:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: the truncated byte, plus it only tells you one but, not what the actual account name is
17:39:42 <fizzie> That's identify-msg, not account-tag.
17:40:01 <b_jonas> oh, you want the proper non-depreciated thing?
17:40:04 <b_jonas> sure, you can turn it on if you want
17:40:19 <b_jonas> I mean don't turn on the old depreciated identify-msg thing
17:40:56 <b_jonas> except maybe on freenode but only if we run out of reasonable ways to filter bridge forward spam
17:41:02 <b_jonas> but I don't think it will come to that
17:41:19 <b_jonas> if it gets that far, we should just quiet unidentified there
17:41:21 <fizzie> Well, I don't know if I want account-tag or not. I just noticed it got turned on for my potential future personal logs when using pounce, even without asking.
17:41:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: does account-tag tell you more than the old combo whox+account+extjoin
17:41:50 <b_jonas> ?
17:42:02 <b_jonas> I haven't experimented with account-tag yet
17:42:08 <fizzie> It tells you the account for private messages without asking specifically, which of course doesn't matter for #esolangs logs.
17:42:20 <b_jonas> ah I see
17:42:31 <b_jonas> does it tell only the account name, or something more about the account too?
17:42:42 <fizzie> Just the account name.
17:42:45 <b_jonas> thanks
17:55:26 <zzo38> PostScript has several stacks, including the operand stack, execution stack (which can be read but cannot be directly manipulated), the dictionary stack (which stores only dictionaries and the bottom three items cannot be removed), the graphics stack, the clipping stack (stored in the graphics stack), and possibly others that I forgot. There are also VM saves, too.
17:56:45 <zzo38> (Allowing the execution stack to be altered directly might allow you to implement some more sophisticated functions, such as continuations perhaps)
17:57:35 <zzo38> (and also like FORGET does in INTERCAL, too, maybe)
18:00:22 <nakilon> "... needs at least two stacks -- one for befunge runtime and ..." - s/befunge/brainfuck
18:02:41 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh has four stacks: the operand stack, the call stack (which also includes the Self variable, as well as internal functions), the message stack (which stores all message variables other than Self), and the pattern stack (used for backtracking when a pattern match fails).
18:04:15 <zzo38> For implementing loops like the [] loops in brainfuck, there is perhaps three ways, which is to convert to GOTO like Forth does, to use a execution stack like PostScript does, or to seek forward and backward each time when executing the loop.
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18:29:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Michal Atlas * New user account
18:32:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * ResU * moved [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of instructions that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]]: Wikipedia first sentence change
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18:44:18 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84039 * Grs * (+9192) Created page with "Not to be confused with [[OLNMLN]] OLNMLNE or OneLineNoMoreLinesNeededinEntropy is a programming language that is almost the same as [[OLNMLN]]. It was written by ~~~. The di..."
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19:29:51 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84040&oldid=84033 * Grs * (+29)
19:31:06 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84041&oldid=84039 * Grs * (+26)
19:31:40 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84042&oldid=84041 * Grs * (+2) /* See also */
19:35:17 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84043&oldid=84042 * Grs * (-4)
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20:00:55 <esolangs> [[Talk:256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84044&oldid=76076 * Grs * (+175)
20:02:11 <esolangs> [[256]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84045&oldid=79025 * Grs * (-2)
20:03:00 <esolangs> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84046&oldid=84044 * Grs * (+30)
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20:06:27 <Guest9> new here
20:06:38 <Taneb> `welcome Guest9
20:06:41 <HackEso> Guest9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:07:17 <Guest9> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:ResU is who I am
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20:15:08 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84047&oldid=84040 * Grs * (-17)
20:15:47 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84048&oldid=84047 * Grs * (+8)
20:16:16 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84049&oldid=84043 * Grs * (-1)
20:16:31 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84050&oldid=84049 * Grs * (-1)
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20:22:47 <esolangs> [[OHE]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84051 * ResU * (+283) Created page with "```OHE``` is an esolang created by [[User:ResU]] in 2021. Every program prints "Hello, world!". ==Examples== ===Hello, world!=== <pre></pre> ===Quine=== <pre>Hello, world!</pr..."
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20:31:09 <esolangs> [[OHE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84052&oldid=84051 * ResU * (+0)
20:39:07 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84053&oldid=83842 * Kantoros1 * (-1139) Simplified the code examples, NDBall is much more capable than it seems. 99 bottles of beer program takes up only 4 dimensions, but has almost 450 instructions.
21:07:59 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84054&oldid=84053 * Kantoros1 * (+257) Added an external link to 99 bottles program
21:21:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84055&oldid=81677 * Grs * (+3302)
21:27:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84056&oldid=84055 * Grs * (+44) /* I made a interpreter */
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21:54:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84057&oldid=84056 * Grs * (+63)
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22:27:32 <esolangs> [[,,,]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84058&oldid=77285 * ResU * (+0) fixed typo
22:44:00 <esolangs> [[COVID-19]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84059&oldid=74249 * ResU * (+50)
22:59:43 <esolangs> [[Milk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84060&oldid=83583 * Salmmanfred * (+85) /* Implementations */
23:16:37 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84061&oldid=31062 * Caenbe * (+1040) I'm not sure about "evaluates to true" but I think non-zero numbers evaluate to true, so it should be pretty easy to implement a Minsky machine.
23:38:04 <esolangs> [[Template:Programming Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84062&oldid=78372 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) Name change
23:38:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of output.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language comprising a set of strings that produce various kinds of machine code output.]]: The name changed
23:39:53 <esolangs> [[Talk:256]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84065&oldid=84046 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) /* Why is the article still in the unimplemented category? */ Un-unsigned
23:53:49 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84066&oldid=79816 * Andrewarchi * (+136) Add ws-corpus
2021-06-06
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00:19:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Neural Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84067 * Caenbe * (+214) Created page with "==s Command== This is Turing complete, if the s command is allowed to be a [[Spoon]] implementation that maps programs to their output. ;) ~~~~"
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00:36:49 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84068&oldid=84061 * Caenbe * (+25) This seems to be more accurate given the examples.
00:37:03 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84069&oldid=84068 * Caenbe * (+0)
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00:54:08 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84070&oldid=78013 * Not applicable * (+443)
00:58:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84071&oldid=84070 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+222) /* HelVM */ Reply
00:59:30 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84072&oldid=83801 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+171) /* Test */ new section
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03:52:37 <nakilon> heh
03:53:53 <nakilon> I found how to get the value 129 in RASEL using 7 instructions without 0..9A..Z
03:54:19 <nakilon> previous 7 long way to do it was C1B//3-
04:32:28 <int-e> hmm, tempting. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/clickbait.png
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04:39:01 <int-e> @bot
04:39:01 <lambdabot> :)
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04:49:17 <nakilon> Comments should be written in baby talk whenever possible. /* We truncy-wuncate the stringy-wingy we were given and we push-push-push it onto the stacky-wacky, don't we? Yes we do! Yes we do! */
04:49:31 <nakilon> (c) Chris Pressey
04:50:11 <nakilon> stacky-wacky-based language
04:50:42 <keegan> n
04:50:43 <keegan> o
04:54:09 <nakilon> I agree with all these points: https://programmers.blogoverflow.com/2012/08/20-controversial-programming-opinions/
05:07:04 <zzo38> I also agree with what is written there
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06:13:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GotCubes * New user account
06:13:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Nellephant]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84073&oldid=65275 * Zzo38 * (+377) Regular expression output
06:16:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84074&oldid=84005 * GotCubes * (+224) /* Introductions */
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07:00:58 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84075&oldid=83994 * Nakilon * (-11) /* Ruby */ this is very debatable
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07:09:22 <nakilon> the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tape article says "See Category:Cell-based for more tape-based esolangs. " that is in my opinion confusing
07:10:49 <nakilon> the tape in brainfuck and the program space in befunge are different things; in brainfuck the moving pointer is accesing the data while in befunge it's accessing the instructions
07:11:40 <nakilon> while that data access in befunge is random, not using the left/right instructions but p and g
07:12:14 <nakilon> I think it's a mistake to call the befunge program space an analogue of tape
07:13:20 <nakilon> wiki is synonymizing them
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07:23:58 <u32[m|gr]> /!\ ΤᎻΙЅ СНᎪΝNEL ΗАS MOVᎬᎠ ᎢⲞ ΙRϹ.LΙᗷΕRΑ.ϹHAT ﹟HAᎷRΑᎠIO /ⵑ\
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08:00:41 <Taneb> nakilon: I think I disagree. If I saw a language that's like brainfuck but with random access instructions, I'd think it's very like brainfuck, and if I saw a language like befunge, but with a program space data pointer that you can move about, I'd think it's very like befunge
08:04:07 <nakilon> yes, because the brainfuck tape and befunge space are different things
08:05:46 <nakilon> that's why I see no reason to have the link to "cell-based" saying "to read more about tape-based" (and vise versa)
08:06:03 <Taneb> I don't think they're very different things at all
08:06:47 <shachaf> hi Taneb
08:06:57 <shachaf> Seen any good cats lately?
08:07:03 <nakilon> tape means you have a pointer than you instruct to shift its position by delta
08:07:04 <Taneb> Only from a distance :(
08:07:09 <nakilon> cell based ness
08:07:18 <nakilon> cell-basedness says nothing about the pointer
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08:10:36 <nakilon> in brainfuck the data pointer and the instruction pointer are different things, operating isolated; in befunge they are mixed together by using the program space as memory
08:11:32 <nakilon> befunge isn't more tape-based than C
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11:05:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84076&oldid=84057 * Grs * (-63)
11:19:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Newton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84077&oldid=84076 * Grs * (+922) Added Hello World! program
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11:33:34 <fizzie> I agree that fungespace doesn't feel particularly tape-y, but I don't think the fact that it merges the data and instruction pointers together is what makes the difference.
11:33:39 <fizzie> There are a number of brainfuck flavors that do the same (make the "data pointer" also operate on the program itself), and those are just as "tape-based" as regular brainfuck.
11:33:42 <fizzie> Anyway, the "see Category:Cell-based for more tape-based esolangs" doesn't imply that all languages in the category would be tape-based; it just says there are some tape-based ones in it, which can't really be argued against, when probably half of them (exaggerating, but not by much) are derivatives of brainfuck, *the* tape-based language.
11:37:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Magnogen * New user account
11:43:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84078&oldid=84074 * Magnogen * (+191) /* Introductions */
11:54:08 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84079 * Magnogen * (+751) Created page with "Hey! My name's Magnogen, but you can call me Mag - my friends call me that anyway. I like to code, even though it causes my great pain sometimes. I've been making a few prog..."
11:54:29 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84080&oldid=84079 * Magnogen * (+3)
11:54:49 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84081&oldid=84080 * Magnogen * (+4)
11:54:59 <esolangs> [[User:Magnogen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84082&oldid=84081 * Magnogen * (+1)
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12:02:27 <fizzie> Hah, the X.509 subject identifier of the certificate you-know-who uses to connect contains the component "O = Fungot Engineering", and I had completely forgotten putting it there.
12:04:44 <int-e> :)
12:37:57 <nakilon> there was a CS:GO skin few years ago in Steam Market that costed $0.1, I was thinking about buying a thousand of them
12:38:09 <nakilon> now they cost $17 ..\
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12:40:31 <nakilon> maybe I had to make a script to keep track of those but I didn't bother to
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13:31:44 <nakilon> fizzie do threads in funge-98 have own stacks?
13:34:59 <nakilon> or is it only one
13:36:45 <nakilon> I guess it's one and threads are just pointers, hm
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13:47:54 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84083&oldid=84048 * Grs * (+369)
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13:56:13 <oerjan> <nakilon> I guess it's one and threads are just pointers, hm <-- that sounds like it would be hard to program
13:57:01 <int-e> oh remember the box256 thread model
13:57:49 <int-e> (just a random association for "threads" and "hard to program")
13:58:03 <oerjan> i don't, should i be happy? :P
13:59:17 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know. It was fun. I'm still on the official leaderboard. https://www.reddit.com/r/box256/comments/4dtkwb/official_leaderboard/
13:59:33 <int-e> But it was ages ago
14:00:12 <int-e> it kind of died quickly
14:01:22 <oerjan> . o O ( maybe it deadlocked )
14:01:38 <int-e> nah, people just lost interest
14:02:05 <oerjan> apathiclocked
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14:56:30 <fizzie> nakilon: No, each thread has a separate stack.
14:56:59 <fizzie> nakilon: It's the (lesser-known) Befunge-97 or -96 (I forget which) where each thread shares the same stack, and doesn't even get its own stack pointer.
14:57:33 <fizzie> Or more precisely, separate stack -> separate stack stack.
14:58:39 <fizzie> https://quuxplusone.github.io/Fungus/docs/spec98.html#Concurrent "When a child IP is borne unto Funge-Space thus, its location, storage offset, and stack are all copied verbatim from the parent IP's."
14:58:53 <fizzie> "In Concurrent Funge, IP's are sometimes called threads and each has its own location, delta, and stack."
15:01:14 <fizzie> I feel like the fact that -97's shared stack was practically impossible to program (you'd have to cycle-count everything to prevent the separate IPs from trampling all over what they're doing) is why 98 is the one that really "made it".
15:01:25 <fizzie> https://catseye.tc/article/Languages.md#befunge-97 "Befunge-97 was an unimplemented attempt to design a successor to Befunge-93. The design, however, was not successful — it has been described as "brain-damaged" — primarily due to the fact that separate processes were specified as sharing a single stack."
15:08:44 <oerjan> at least it's definitely esoteric :P
15:14:32 <esolangs> [[NDBall]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84084&oldid=84054 * Aspwil * (+99) /* 99 Bottles of beer on the wall */
15:18:31 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84085 * Aspwil * (+77) Created page with "{| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed nowrap" |+ | name |- |text |}"
15:21:19 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84086&oldid=84085 * Aspwil * (-5)
15:31:27 <fizzie> Let's see if I could convince fungot to run under OpenRC's experimental service-supervisor, because why stick with something that works when you can introduce a new piece of nonsense in?
15:31:27 <fungot> fizzie: and if a lot of things to start getting such an awareness?? oh, yeh!! first you need to have +x attributes for the query.
15:31:46 <fizzie> That sounds vaguely unsettling, but I'll still go ahead with it.
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15:33:51 <Guest9> NOTNEW
15:34:03 <Guest9> I WAS HERE YESTERDAY
15:40:40 <fizzie> VERY LOUD
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15:41:33 <fizzie> fungot: Did you gain some new kind of awareness from the new setup?
15:41:33 <fungot> fizzie: the .deb worked here. hope it didn't break my notify like it did?
15:41:52 <int-e> fungot: happy to hear that
15:41:52 <fungot> int-e: no. the scsh manual is??? what about cfunge???
15:42:10 <fizzie> fungot: ...you've installed a .deb package in your new Alpine-based container? What are you even doing?
15:42:10 <fungot> fizzie: it's hard in basic english....... huh.......interesting....... what kind of game, like e.g. procedure 6949 ( unnamed in fnord
15:42:20 <int-e> fungot: good question, what befunge implementation *are* you using?
15:42:20 <fungot> int-e: let tcl parse for me.
15:42:31 <fizzie> (Spoilers: it's cfunge.)
15:42:31 <int-e> fungot: oh you poor little thing
15:42:31 <fungot> int-e: unless it divides by 0 in which case, treating it as a multimedia message to myself with the task of adding 10 directories to a list which the last element
15:43:23 <fizzie> In retrospect, having a service manager that can restart it isn't *incredibly* useful for a bot that doesn't know how to auto-join any channels.
15:43:39 <int-e> (nothing deserves to be implemented in TCL)
15:43:54 <int-e> fizzie: hah
15:44:21 <int-e> have esolangs periodically tell fungot to join #esolangs
15:44:21 <fungot> int-e: must've been some tasteless slashem feature :) about 35 c today... it's warm
15:44:42 <fizzie> In a sense it's a fail-safe feature, because it also doesn't know how to persist the ignore list, so this way I can pre-set it before telling it to join.
15:45:19 <fizzie> fungot: Are you measuring inside your chassis or something? I mean, it *is* warm, but it's not 35°C warm.
15:45:19 <fungot> fizzie: " today in practice, i don't remember having been surprised. we can thank anselm for this wonderfully cyclic " proof."
15:45:39 <int-e> of course esolangs should also be on that ignore list, hmm
15:45:55 <fizzie> temp1: +37.0°C // well, pretty close
15:46:41 <fizzie> fungot: Actually, how did you get access to those sensors, you're supposed to be running in a KVM thing?
15:46:41 <fungot> fizzie: cookie monster used to scare me as a sort of regex, except limited, something that evaluate lambda calculus in haskell notation.
15:46:53 <fizzie> Fine, be that way. Uppity bot.
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15:56:04 <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:04:17 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:04:20 <HackEso> 1333) <fizzie> I could write a script to my own irssi instance to periodically check if it's missing; if so, whois it to verify it's connected and authenticated; then set that ignore list and tell it to join. But maybe it's just easier to fix those things in the Befunge code.
16:24:34 <FireFly> haha
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17:58:05 <river> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/ntnsrs/the_logic_gate_adventure/
18:22:20 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84087 * Caenbe * (+3216) Created FourQueue
18:23:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84088&oldid=84012 * Caenbe * (+16) /* F */ Added FourQueue
18:24:37 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84089&oldid=83989 * Caenbe * (+89) Added FourQueue
18:36:25 <esolangs> [[Purl]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84090 * GotCubes * (+4) Created page with "Temp"
18:50:03 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84091&oldid=84090 * GotCubes * (+1495)
18:59:00 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84092&oldid=84087 * Caenbe * (+11) Changed because having a 0 in front is a huge issue. This language may need work still.
18:59:22 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84093&oldid=84091 * GotCubes * (+1237) /* Instructions */
19:01:34 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84094&oldid=84093 * GotCubes * (+9) /* Instructions */
19:02:05 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84095&oldid=84094 * GotCubes * (+28) /* Instructions */
19:04:54 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84096&oldid=84095 * GotCubes * (+167) /* Instructions */
19:05:17 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84097&oldid=84092 * Caenbe * (+127) /* Computational class */
19:06:47 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84098&oldid=84097 * Caenbe * (+1) /* Computational class */
19:08:12 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84099&oldid=84096 * GotCubes * (+4)
19:10:01 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84100&oldid=84099 * GotCubes * (+280)
19:10:16 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84101&oldid=84100 * GotCubes * (+15) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:10:18 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84102&oldid=84098 * Caenbe * (-11) Undo revision 84092 by [[Special:Contributions/Caenbe|Caenbe]] ([[User talk:Caenbe|talk]]) Never mind, I'm an idiot. I will leave this as-is unless someone has a good objection.
19:11:53 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84103&oldid=84101 * GotCubes * (+803) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:12:17 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84104&oldid=84103 * GotCubes * (-443) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:12:32 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84105&oldid=84104 * GotCubes * (-362) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:17:27 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84106&oldid=84105 * GotCubes * (+10) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:20:41 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84107&oldid=84106 * GotCubes * (+568) /* Hello, world! in Purl */
19:23:30 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84108&oldid=84107 * GotCubes * (+192) /* Hello, world! */
19:27:52 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84109&oldid=84108 * GotCubes * (+498) /* Truth Machine */
19:31:43 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84110&oldid=84109 * GotCubes * (+318) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:32:18 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84111&oldid=84110 * GotCubes * (+30) /* 4-Function Calculator */
19:37:38 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84112&oldid=84111 * GotCubes * (+800) /* 4-Function Calculator */
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19:39:33 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84113&oldid=84112 * GotCubes * (+1)
19:40:04 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84114&oldid=84113 * GotCubes * (+72)
19:42:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * GotCubes * moved [[Purl]] to [[*Purl]]
19:43:04 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84117&oldid=84115 * GotCubes * (+4)
19:43:48 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84118&oldid=84117 * GotCubes * (+0) /* Example Programs */
19:44:38 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84119&oldid=84118 * GotCubes * (+50)
19:44:53 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84120&oldid=84119 * GotCubes * (+1)
19:54:48 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84121&oldid=84089 * Caenbe * (+95) Organized my langs a bit
19:57:12 <esolangs> [[*Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84122&oldid=84120 * GotCubes * (+257)
19:58:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * GotCubes * moved [[*Purl]] to [[Purl]] over redirect
19:58:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete_redir * GotCubes * GotCubes deleted redirect [[Purl]] by overwriting: Deleted to make way for move from "[[*Purl]]"
19:59:27 <esolangs> [[Purl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84125&oldid=84123 * GotCubes * (-91)
20:00:53 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84126&oldid=84088 * GotCubes * (+11) /* P */
20:06:13 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84127&oldid=84102 * Caenbe * (+47) /* Programs */ Extra detail
20:23:01 <Corbin> "space" is often used for whitespace, so searching is difficult; are there documented languages whose objects are spaces?
20:24:15 <Corbin> Metric spaces, topological spaces, combinatoric spaces, I'm not choosy. (I'm not Chu-sey? Chu spaces would be okay too.)
20:24:48 <shachaf> Chu spaces are the best.
20:25:27 <shachaf> Does "object" mean types or values?
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21:05:29 <Soni> 2D or 3D?
21:05:36 <Soni> (spaces, that is)
21:06:47 <shachaf> "dimension" is a very vague word.
21:11:41 <Corbin> Oh, whose values are spaces. It's pretty common for a language to have types as spaces, like a space of numbers or a space of strings. But I want to manipulate spaces as values.
21:34:32 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84128&oldid=84127 * Caenbe * (+12) Formatting; switch to Unicode
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22:08:47 <salpynx> I've been looking into topology of esolangs recently. I was trying to make a funge on an n-torus playfield, but have realised befunge and Rasel with jumps (trampoline/bridge) are just as n-torusy as what I had in mind
22:12:03 <salpynx> I'm in the process of writing a tool to graph the control flow of various languages to get an idea of how they can be embedded, to discover what kind of graph can be embedded on an (n>1)-torus
22:13:32 <salpynx> It does BCT, brainfuck, and python (to some extend; it ignores function calls atm). Next step is Befunge / Rasel. I'm especially interested in how rotations differ from reflections in the graph, and how to represent that.
22:16:20 <salpynx> Relating to the space question, I had thought of making each program symbol a 2d region on a surface rather that a point, which is what they seem to be by default. Rotations in space would then be real rotations in space, not just choosing a labelled edge to move to
22:16:41 <salpynx> That's all program space topology though, not data space
22:25:34 <salpynx> Hm, I have a WIP 2D rewriting language that has stalled. That might benefit from being thought of as "space rewriting" rather than graph (or net) rewriting
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22:46:28 <esolangs> [[BrainDots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84129 * EnilKoder * (+595) init
23:05:48 <esolangs> [[Purl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84130&oldid=84125 * Caenbe * (+4) Grammar
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23:25:27 <esolangs> [[Minsky Swap]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84131&oldid=84036 * Caenbe * (+2) /* Computational class */ Nice codeboxes
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2021-06-07
00:12:15 <esolangs> [[BrainDots]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84132&oldid=84129 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) Category
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00:18:39 <fizzie> Hmm. I wasn't *actually* planning to disconnect that other client yet, but I guess it made the decision for me. Tried to connect to it from this local system, but the client here went "SSL handshake failed: dh key too small" and apparently the bouncer process just died.
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01:43:51 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84133&oldid=84128 * Caenbe * (+15) /* Programs */ Changed section to Syntax and reworded
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02:36:14 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84134&oldid=84133 * Caenbe * (+0) Wording
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04:56:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Complack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84135 * TheCoderPro * (+176) Created page with "i personally think you should have an instruction to swap the elements of the current stack with another stack ~~~"
04:59:31 <Corbin> https://github.com/brightly-salty/mlatu A reasonable progression in the series of concatenative languages named after cat words.
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06:24:22 <nakilon> I'm thinking abot adding threads
06:24:30 <nakilon> to implement multiple stacks
06:25:13 <nakilon> the threaded instruction pointer will sleep on instructions that wait for a value pushed from another stack
06:25:18 <nakilon> *another thread
06:26:51 <nakilon> smth like "t" to convert to two threads on the next two cells (not sure yet if you should copy the stack)
06:27:54 <nakilon> "0p" to push to higher thread; "1p" to push to lower thread; "g" to wait until smth is pushed in and jump on two next cells based on from which of two thread neighbours the value came from
06:29:42 <nakilon> mayba i and o instead of g and p
06:29:50 <nakilon> damn typos
06:40:42 <nakilon> here is something threaded https://esolangs.org/wiki/Rui
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07:59:53 <esolangs> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84136&oldid=75249 * TheCoderPro * (+0) added dot
08:00:36 <esolangs> [[Curlyfrick]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84137&oldid=84136 * TheCoderPro * (+10) made a bit clearer
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09:18:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * D-Lord * New user account
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10:57:42 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84138&oldid=84078 * D-Lord * (+209) /* Introductions */
10:58:42 <esolangs> [[User:D-Lord]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84139 * D-Lord * (+322) Created page with "Hey ho. And welcome to this strange corner of the interwebs. I'm D-Lord or Denis and like most other users in here interested in many different things including esolangs. Th..."
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12:42:52 <esolangs> [[NDBall/Program Archive]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84140&oldid=84086 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) .
12:49:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ProtoBit * New user account
12:59:45 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84141&oldid=84138 * ProtoBit * (+201) /* Introductions */
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14:28:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84142 * Grs * (+1021) Created page with "== Welcome == Welcome to the talk section of OLNMLN! ===== Please read: ===== * Please don't remove anything, except if it's yours! * Don't swear or use bad words! * Don't hur..."
14:33:29 <esolangs> [[Talk:OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84143&oldid=84142 * Grs * (+81)
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14:56:29 <esolangs> [[OLNMLNE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84144&oldid=84050 * Grs * (+69) /* Commands */
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16:14:28 <esolangs> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84145 * Caenbe * (+3568) Added interpreter
16:17:43 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84146&oldid=84134 * Caenbe * (+382) Added interpreter
16:23:11 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84147&oldid=84146 * Caenbe * (+479) Added example
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16:23:56 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84148&oldid=84147 * Caenbe * (+2) /* Interpreter */
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16:28:02 <Guest60> Hi, I recently finished writing a language I want to make a page for but have tried and failed to make an account at least a dozen times now. Can anyone help me out?
16:28:11 <Guest60> this is the language https://github.com/KyleM73/AHHH
16:28:31 <Guest60> thanks in advance!! :)
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16:36:17 <oerjan> Guest60: what's your problem with the account?
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16:48:32 <esolangs> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84149&oldid=84145 * Caenbe * (+20)
16:53:34 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84150 * Dominicentek * (+4047) Created page with "FolderCode is an esoteric programming language created by Dominicentek. It's main gimmick is that it's written as a folder structure with names being commands. FolderCode comp..."
16:54:02 <esolangs> [[FourQueue/Interpreter.py]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84151&oldid=84149 * Caenbe * (+17)
16:54:03 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84152&oldid=84150 * Dominicentek * (+73) /* Examples */
16:56:39 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84153&oldid=84152 * Dominicentek * (+37)
16:56:59 <b_jonas> fizzie: you are summoned for Guest60
16:58:16 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84154&oldid=84153 * Dominicentek * (-51)
16:59:18 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84155&oldid=84154 * Dominicentek * (-19)
17:03:27 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84156&oldid=84155 * Dominicentek * (+17)
17:06:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84157&oldid=84126 * Dominicentek * (-11) /* F */
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17:06:58 <fizzie> Hmm.
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17:07:32 <fizzie> I don't know what could be the problem with registration -- as recently as earlier today "ProtoBit" seemed to be able to register.
17:09:47 <fizzie> There's that Befunge captcha, of course. But it uses a relatively limited subset, I imagine any online Befunge interpreter would correctly execute it.
17:12:20 <fizzie> Well, as long as it has sufficiently large stack cells, anyway. Possibly there's a toy one somewhere that uses three-digit decimal numbers or whatnot.
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17:27:30 <Guest6018> Hi, is anyone able to help me make an account? I was guest60 before but I got disconnected
17:28:26 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84158&oldid=84156 * Dominicentek * (+41)
17:33:54 <oerjan> fizzie: ^
17:36:23 <oerjan> . o O ( this isn't going to work )
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17:38:33 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ultlang * New user account
17:40:54 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84159&oldid=84141 * Ultlang * (+210) /* Introductions */
17:43:37 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84160 * Ultlang * (+177) Created page with "Delta Salein Ao, Delta Salein or is a programming language created by Ultlang. [[Category:Languages]][[Category:2021]][[Category:Cell-based]][[Category:Output only]]"
17:44:36 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84161&oldid=84160 * Ultlang * (+59) yeaf
17:48:31 <Guest6018> How can I translate the Befudge code to make an account?
17:49:26 <oerjan> `befunge does this work?
17:49:29 <HackEso> befunge? No such file or directory
17:49:37 <oerjan> apparently not
17:50:01 <oerjan> Guest6018: any befunge interpreter should work
17:50:29 <Guest6018> to make an account it says:
17:50:31 <Guest6018> To protect the wiki against automated account creation, we kindly ask you to answer the question that appears below (more info):
17:50:31 <Guest6018> Which number does this Befunge code output: 9646332815>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
17:50:38 <oerjan> `! befunge 9646332815>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@
17:50:39 <HackEso> 224408598
17:50:42 <oerjan> whee!
17:50:44 <oerjan> Guest6018: ^
17:50:58 <Guest6018> oh! that's handy!
17:51:03 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kylem73 * New user account
17:51:10 <Guest6018> thank you!!
17:51:11 <oerjan> great
17:52:38 <oerjan> . o O ( now for the second step )
17:52:40 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't even think of them bots.
17:53:51 <fizzie> But there's a number of online Befunge interpreters. We link to at least one from the Befunge article.
17:54:15 <oerjan> does the captcha link to the Befunge article?
17:54:56 <fizzie> Although for some unfathomable reason all of them do this weird two-step procedure where, after you've input the program, you need to first click on an unintuitively labeled button ("Show", or "Init", or "To interpreter mode"; three real examples) before you can actually click on the intuitively labeled one ("Run") to execute it.
17:55:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84162&oldid=84159 * Kylem73 * (+160)
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17:55:36 <fizzie> I tried to make the captcha link to the Befunge article but MediaWiki does not allow HTML embedded in the captcha question.
17:55:59 <fizzie> That's also why the code is typeset in a proportional font, which is pretty sacrilegious.
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17:56:48 <fizzie> There is a link from the captcha page to [[Special:Captcha/help]] that could be edited to contain a link to the Befunge article, but I wonder if anyone would actually successfully navigate through all that.
17:56:49 <oerjan> ic
18:17:11 <b_jonas> hehe
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18:21:34 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84163&oldid=84083 * Grs * (+1037) Added changes (NOT IN CODE)
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18:23:43 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84164&oldid=84163 * Grs * (+18)
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18:53:55 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84165 * Kylem73 * (+4514) first save
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18:55:43 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84166&oldid=84165 * Kylem73 * (-27) not pseudonatural
18:57:48 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84167&oldid=84166 * Kylem73 * (+16)
18:58:59 <esolangs> [[AHHH]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84168&oldid=84167 * Kylem73 * (+11) cell based
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19:50:16 <esolangs> [[FourQueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84169&oldid=84148 * Caenbe * (+0) /* Example */ Explanation was wrong
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19:58:33 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84170&oldid=84158 * Dominicentek * (+0)
20:00:57 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84171&oldid=84170 * Dominicentek * (+0)
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20:12:09 <esolangs> [[Delta Salein Ao]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84172&oldid=84161 * Ultlang * (+412)
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20:32:36 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84173&oldid=84066 * Andrewarchi * (-8) Update the Whitespace Corpus to the current URL
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21:14:59 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84174&oldid=84069 * Caenbe * (+9) /* Commands */ Appears to be more accurate (again, from looking at examples)
21:16:34 <esolangs> [[Fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84175&oldid=84174 * Caenbe * (+191) Computational class
21:31:18 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84176 * S1(210) * (+6488) created page
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21:34:03 <esolangs> [[Talk:Movesum]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84177 * Caenbe * (+310) Created talk page
21:39:32 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84178&oldid=84176 * S1(210) * (-3)
21:42:00 <esolangs> [[Andrew Phillips]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84179 * S1(210) * (+192) Created page with "'''Andrew Phillips''' is a programmer and esolang author. He has created the languages [[DeBruijn]] and [[Forwards]]. He contributes on this wiki as [[User:S1(210)]]. ..."
21:42:53 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84180&oldid=83645 * S1(210) * (-3) change user page link to author page link
21:44:10 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84181&oldid=83549 * S1(210) * (+25)
21:46:04 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84182&oldid=84178 * S1(210) * (+7)
21:46:44 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84183&oldid=84182 * S1(210) * (+13) /* The let Clause */
21:49:54 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84184&oldid=84183 * S1(210) * (-20) /* Style */
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21:51:06 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84185&oldid=84184 * S1(210) * (+0) /* Abstraction */
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22:18:18 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84186&oldid=84157 * Zero player rodent * (+25)
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23:33:49 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84187&oldid=84164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* Commands */ Fmt table
23:35:32 <esolangs> [[Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84188&oldid=75830 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-2) /* Syntax and Semantics */ Fix example (thanks to Caenbe)
23:38:50 <esolangs> [[Talk:Movesum]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84189&oldid=84177 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+326) Reply
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23:53:23 <zzo38> I found that Amiga has sound modulation. Why the MOD format does not include this command (perhaps the 8xx command)?
2021-06-08
00:09:39 <esolangs> [[05ab1e]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84190 * Monochromeninja * (+20) Just a redirect.
00:22:04 -!- dutch has changed nick to SweetLeaf.
01:25:24 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84191 * Caenbe * (+1656) Added PMMN conversion
01:29:11 <esolangs> [[Blues machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84192&oldid=75036 * Caenbe * (+311) Added TC proof
01:32:09 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84193&oldid=84185 * S1(210) * (+14) /* Feature Specification */
01:36:08 <esolangs> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84194&oldid=72857 * TheCoderPro * (+759)
01:36:51 <esolangs> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84195&oldid=84194 * TheCoderPro * (+45) /* Instructions */
01:46:04 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84196&oldid=84191 * Caenbe * (+24) Back button
01:46:42 <esolangs> [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84197&oldid=84195 * TheCoderPro * (+514) /* Instructions */
01:47:47 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84198&oldid=84196 * Caenbe * (-1) Fixed mistake
01:48:00 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84199&oldid=84198 * Caenbe * (-2)
01:49:28 <esolangs> [[User:TheCoderPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84200 * TheCoderPro * (+5) Created page with "hello"
01:49:58 <esolangs> [[User talk:TheCoderPro]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84201 * TheCoderPro * (+69) Created page with "HI -~~~"
01:59:32 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84202&oldid=84186 * MartinAsdf * (+15) added stackomp
02:03:21 <esolangs> [[Blues machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84203&oldid=84192 * Caenbe * (+43) The author wrote the interpreter, so I assume this was intended.
02:05:42 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84204&oldid=84199 * Caenbe * (-3) Of course, I'm so used to Python
02:06:00 <esolangs> [[Blues machine/Portable Minsky Machine Notation conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84205&oldid=84204 * Caenbe * (+1)
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02:55:39 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84206&oldid=84121 * Caenbe * (+270)
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03:39:04 <esolangs> [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84207&oldid=82771 * Caenbe * (-1) /* List of OISCs */ The blues machine page does not say commands are memory-mapped, and the implementation (written by the creator) does not do it
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04:06:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:BytePushCore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84208&oldid=19121 * TheCoderPro * (+122)
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08:20:35 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84209&oldid=84003 * OfficialCraftCGame * (+48) /* Calculator */
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11:36:57 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84210 * Dominicentek * (+34) Created page with "Hi there! I made: * [[FolderCode]]"
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13:02:35 <esolangs> [[Set]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84211&oldid=76593 * Jedgrei * (+0)
13:10:57 <nakilon> `?
13:11:00 <HackEso> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:11:01 <nakilon> `help
13:11:01 <HackEso> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $HACKENV are persistent, and $HACKENV/bin is in $PATH. $HACKENV is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert, https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ to browse. $PWD ($HACKENV/tmp) is persistent but unversioned, /tmp is ephemeral.
13:13:34 <nakilon> `cat cat
13:13:35 <HackEso> cat: cat: No such file or directory
13:13:49 <nakilon> `which cat
13:13:50 <HackEso> ​/bin/cat
13:13:56 <nakilon> `cat /bin/cat
13:13:56 <HackEso> ​ELF............>...../......@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.......@.......h......h..................................................................................................................... ....... ....... ......A......A.....................p.......p.......p................................P......P......P......................................................................
13:14:10 <nakilon> what was the command to see cources of other commands?
13:15:04 <nakilon> `? cat
13:15:06 <HackEso> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
13:18:33 <b_jonas> nakilon: for commands that are implemented as shell scripts or similar, yes, you can use cat or cbt or /bin/cat
13:18:51 <b_jonas> nakilon: the user-defined commands are in /hackenv/bin
13:19:03 <b_jonas> nakilon: there's also a whatis command
13:19:07 <b_jonas> `whatis ?
13:19:08 <HackEso> ​?(1hackeso) - print wisdom by name \ ?(8lambdabot) - compose tree of lambdabot commands
13:19:15 <b_jonas> `whatis w
13:19:16 <HackEso> w(1) - Show who is logged on and what they are doing. \ w(1hackeso) - print random wisdom matching a string
13:19:21 <b_jonas> ``` w;q
13:19:22 <HackEso> myth//A myth is a female moth. \ 1295) <boily> (there's also that thing with the small yellow guys that I refuse to aknowledge, and nobody has any proof I went to the theatre to watch it.)
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13:29:17 <nakilon> cbt !
13:29:19 <nakilon> `cbt !
13:29:20 <HackEso> ​#!/bin/bash \ CMD=`echo -n "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG="$(echo -n "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-)" \ exec $HACKENV/ibin/$CMD "$ARG$2"
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13:29:55 <b_jonas> `cbt cbt
13:29:56 <HackEso> cat $HACKENV/bin/"$1"
13:33:18 <b_jonas> `? cruella
13:33:20 <HackEso> cruella? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:50:33 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84212&oldid=84075 * Batata * (+7913)
13:53:21 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84213&oldid=84171 * Dominicentek * (+117) /* Compiler, Runtime and Interpreter */
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14:01:34 <esolangs> [[Numeric Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84214&oldid=43262 * Caenbe * (+190) Cats and short blurb about the computational class
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14:13:34 <b_jonas> does any Pokemon game have a nethack-like extinction mechanism where if you kill a lot of a certain species of pokemon then it will no longer get generated as random encounter wild pokemon?
14:13:44 <b_jonas> and if so, what is the earliest generation that has such a mechanic?
14:13:52 <Taneb> Not to my knowlege
14:13:59 <b_jonas> thanks
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16:03:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luduk * New user account
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16:08:13 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84215&oldid=84162 * Luduk * (+264) Luduk joins the party! Hope you've got pizza!
16:19:04 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84216&oldid=84187 * Grs * (+352)
16:19:49 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84217&oldid=84216 * Grs * (-48)
16:22:50 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84218&oldid=84202 * Kylem73 * (+11) added AHHH
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16:24:31 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84219&oldid=84217 * Grs * (+91)
16:25:48 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84220&oldid=83546 * Kylem73 * (+52) added AHHH
16:28:28 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84221&oldid=84219 * Grs * (+49)
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16:58:24 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84222&oldid=84221 * Grs * (-132)
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17:08:04 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sawcce * New user account
17:08:59 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84223&oldid=84212 * Grs * (+198) /* Implementations */ OLNMLN
17:12:08 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84224&oldid=84215 * Sawcce * (+251) /* Introductions */
17:20:15 <esolangs> [[User:ResU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84225&oldid=83978 * ResU * (+79)
17:34:23 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84226&oldid=83971 * ResU * (+55) added .print
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17:44:36 <esolangs> [[Talk:Another Pi Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84227&oldid=18566 * ResU * (+94)
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17:57:54 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84228&oldid=84213 * Dominicentek * (+194)
18:04:53 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84229 * Luduk * (+870) twitty, the unreliable
18:05:08 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84230&oldid=84229 * Luduk * (+4)
18:06:14 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84231&oldid=84230 * ResU * (+18)
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18:12:04 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84232&oldid=84226 * ResU * (+40)
18:13:43 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84233&oldid=84232 * ResU * (+0)
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18:36:17 <esolangs> [[FolderCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84234&oldid=84228 * Dominicentek * (-73) /* Version 1.1 */
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19:49:32 <esolangs> [[Nu]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84235 * Caenbe * (+2990) Created Nu
19:50:46 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84236&oldid=84218 * Caenbe * (+9) /* N */ Added Nu
19:51:34 <esolangs> [[User:Caenbe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84237&oldid=84206 * Caenbe * (+50)
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19:55:38 <Taneb> https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2021/06/1920-2020-and-a-20000-prize-announcing-the-s-combinator-challenge/
20:00:30 <salpynx> That is an interesting link.
20:06:23 <b_jonas> Taneb: that will either devolve in nobody caring, or another weird game of defining what it means like with the cellular automaton.
20:06:37 <b_jonas> s/means/means,/
20:07:59 <Taneb> b_jonas: if it's towards the latter then it may well be done by the people here
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20:14:26 <salpynx> I'm now thinking through whether BCT can be done with S, and knowing the specific obstacle is for not being able to would be interesting to know
20:24:36 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84238&oldid=84235 * Caenbe * (+10) /* Graph rewriting */
20:24:49 <salpynx> Disproving it would be interesting too, esp. for $20K
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20:37:34 <Corbin> I'm not sure how to prove it in a way Wolfram would accept, but in general to be Turing-complete means to have a Turing category, which means to be Cartesian closed, which means that K needs to exist in order to delete/forget unused values and have constant functions.
20:38:55 <Corbin> I wonder if there's a beautiful Smullyan proof somewhere that S can't build K. I can imagine a Hofstadter-style informal proof which shows that S can't ever tear down structures like K can.
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20:47:32 <salpynx> the S version of K presumably would shuffle arguments away to a 'discard zone', out of the way and effectively dropped. Is there any possible space for an infinite use discard pile with S?
20:52:28 <Corbin> Hm, maybe this suggests that S can't implement I alone. That would be pretty damning.
20:54:05 <b_jonas> Corbin: hmm, let me check the bird book. I know it at least states that it can't implement K, but I don't know if there's a proof given
20:55:22 <esolangs> [[Nevermind]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84239&oldid=84209 * OfficialCraftCGame * (-20) Edited segments of the wiki.
20:55:28 <b_jonas> chapter 12 is the relevant one
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20:56:54 <b_jonas> and then chapter 18\
20:57:42 <b_jonas> no, chapter 19
20:59:21 <b_jonas> I don't think it give a full proof for this
21:03:33 <Corbin> No worries, thanks for looking.
21:12:22 <b_jonas> you might be able to find a proof somewhere else, or reconstruct it from as much as Smullyan reveals there
21:15:53 <b_jonas> Corbin: do you need a summary of what he does say there that implies this?
21:31:09 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84240&oldid=84222 * Grs * (+17) /* Commands */
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22:15:36 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84241&oldid=84193 * S1(210) * (+4868) /* Feature Specification */ Complete Rewrite
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22:21:03 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84242&oldid=84241 * S1(210) * (+466) /* Reference */ reformatting...
22:21:30 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84243&oldid=83530 * Caenbe * (+281) /* Mathematics */ Idea
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22:33:45 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84244&oldid=84242 * S1(210) * (-133) /* Nonarithmetic Built-ins */ reformatting... eugh
22:53:13 <esolangs> [[Forwards]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84245&oldid=84244 * S1(210) * (+1264) /* Arithmetic Built-ins */ Finally done reformatting?
23:01:17 <b_jonas> `? Earthblight Ganon
23:01:19 <HackEso> Earthblight Ganon? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:27:42 <zzo38> `? ZZT
23:27:43 <HackEso> ZZT? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:32:39 <zzo38> `? Free Hero Mesh
23:32:41 <HackEso> Free Hero Mesh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:39:50 <esolangs> [[Twitty]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84246&oldid=84231 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+80) /* Important note */ Categories
23:43:12 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84247&oldid=84233 * ResU * (+474)
23:43:38 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84248&oldid=84243 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-28) /* Mathematics */ Link
23:47:02 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84249&oldid=84247 * ResU * (-6)
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23:51:18 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84250&oldid=84249 * ResU * (+28)
23:56:31 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84251&oldid=84238 * Caenbe * (+831) Added 3 Star Programmer ex. and details about tree
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2021-06-09
00:18:23 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84252&oldid=84251 * Caenbe * (-103) /* Graph rewriting */ This may not be true
00:21:50 <esolangs> [[Nu]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84253&oldid=84252 * Caenbe * (+3) /* Examples */ ;;;
00:32:37 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84254&oldid=84253 * Caenbe * (+136) /* Graph rewriting */ It is
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00:56:57 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84255&oldid=84250 * ResU * (+356)
01:07:59 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84256&oldid=84255 * ResU * (+26)
01:11:15 <Corbin> b_jonas: Oh wow, glorious work. I pulled out my copy of the bird book, and indeed, kestrels are not allowed in Bravura's forest!
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01:20:50 <Corbin> Okay, yeah. Smullyan points out that S is "duplicative", using arguments multiple times. The linear calculus, BCI, can't build S.
01:21:02 * ski first thought the bird book was Bird & de Moor
01:21:23 <ski> yes, and `S' can't build `K'
01:21:29 <Corbin> Similarly, S can't build K, because K is "cancellative" and completely forgets an argument.
01:22:05 <Corbin> I found https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-444-87508-2.50017-4 which is paywalled but suggests that this is so well-known that they try to use BCSI to *approximate* K-like behavior while admitting that K itself is not buildable.
01:24:17 <Corbin> ski: Oh, sorry. The context is that Wolfram offered a cash prize for anybody who can show that S is (Turing-?) complete. But I was sure that the bird book had a disproof, and b_jonas did the hard work of looking it up.
01:24:48 <ski> mm, yea. (just finished reading that article)
01:25:05 <ski> (the Wolfram blag)
01:42:46 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84257&oldid=83239 * Enoua5 * (+198) Reformat command table
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02:03:44 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84258&oldid=84257 * Enoua5 * (+2083) Add explanations to all examples
02:04:19 <salpynx> Wolfram already says any TCness has to be encoded in the non-terminating S combinator evolutions, so a direct K build is already ruled out
02:04:50 <zzo38> Pokemon Card GB2 does not list the previous stages of cards in play
02:04:52 <esolangs> <ski> <CTCP>ACTION . o O ( gnyrx ? )<CTCP>
02:08:50 <esolangs> [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84259&oldid=84258 * Enoua5 * (+449) Add section explaining memory layout
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02:10:45 <salpynx> even Ix will need to be a non terminating encoding of x, so Kxy = Ix in some non terminating way which can be decoded by something that is not universal itself
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02:13:06 <salpynx> relevant quote from the announcement > And by “emulate”, what we mean here is that a suitable “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” can be found that will allow any evolution in the system being emulated to be mapped to a corresponding evolution in the S combinator system.
02:14:36 <Corbin> salpynx: Can you explain more what you see? I would naively and reductively assume that the I combinator simply isn't represented here; there's no way to emulate its (lack of) evolution.
02:16:21 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84260&oldid=84254 * Caenbe * (+13) Better wording
02:19:27 <salpynx> It's not directly representable, but I guess that's the question: can it 'emulate' K's "cutting things down" via some kind of encoding? It'd have to include 'junk' data, which would have to be ignored by the decoder in the final step to get the result
02:20:07 <salpynx> more of Wolfram's writing linked to from somewhere in the announcement: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2020/12/combinators-a-centennial-view/#the-world-of-the-s-combinator
02:24:15 <salpynx> Naively I wondered if you could use both sides of every K in every computation, then pick the 'real' one at the end. That'd be super inefficient with the combinatorics, and I don't know how you'd pick the correct version at the end. and it's probably more complicated than 'doing things twice' with K arguments
02:28:53 <salpynx> I guess my take is that a working emulated K in this hypothetical system must accumulate 'junk' which can be 'easily' discerned from the result of computation by the hypothetical decoder. Examining whether that kind of mechanism is possible or not is an avenue of attack.
02:30:07 <salpynx> My gut feel is any 'junk' would get smeared out through the whole combinatoric expression over time, and separating it won't be possible without doing an equivalent computation
02:34:02 <salpynx> also that Wolfram is talking about some meta computation requiring those “encoder”, “detector” and “decoder” external parts to the system, and that's possibly, as was said above by @b_jonas: "another weird game of defining what it means"
02:36:58 <salpynx> I can imagine a giant stream of combinator S's which take a single K as an argument, and duplicates and places the Ks where they need to go for reproducing any algorithm. No idea if that's helpful, but it's playing with separating parts of the system
02:37:31 <Corbin> Although we know something about their shape, at least. The bounded-time description should lead (by a handwave) to the encoder and decoder being katamorphisms.
02:39:33 <Corbin> But note that the encoder can be as simple as the identity function, if we're targeting SKI, so the question is whether there's some composition of S alone which yields K and I. IOW I think we get back up to what's been covered.
02:42:16 <Corbin> Oh wow, https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/227904/solve-the-halting-problem-for-s-combinatory-logic implies that it's not Turing-complete. Reading the paper right now, but this could be it.
02:47:43 <salpynx> That's a good find.
02:48:53 <salpynx> I think Wolfram know that though, and that's what I was picking up from his writing. To paraphrase what I think he's asking: Taking the infinite set of identifiable non-halting S Combinator expressions, is there some encoding which can give rise to an unresolvable halting problem in their evolutions?
02:49:56 <salpynx> (if there are not infinite non-halting evolutions, then it's really busted)
02:51:08 <Corbin> Let the codec be a genuine equivalence computable in poly time. Then wouldn't the codec's existence contradict Rice's Theorem?
02:51:15 <salpynx> Re-reading my paraphrase, that does sound sketchy, but I think that's what Wolfram is really asking.
02:51:38 <Corbin> I don't want to unfairly strawman Wolfram's question, but I'm really not sure if there's more to it than that.
02:53:56 <Corbin> Meh, "genuine equivalence" is vague and wrong. This isn't yet airtight, but it's suggestive.
02:58:52 <imode> wolfram's prize got its way to here, eh.
02:59:30 <imode> for S to be TC on its own it would have to re-order the expression so that past work doesn't get in the way of current work. because it can't, it's not TC. more rigorous proofs of that exist.
03:11:12 <Corbin> Makes sense. It sounds like there's three different ways to slice that S isn't TC: S can't even implement K or I, Halting for S is decideable, and now imode's point about divergence and order of operations.
03:13:42 <imode> it's probably equivalent to a pushdown.
03:13:48 <Corbin> Unrelated: https://github.com/TartanLlama/vizh Nice!
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03:34:41 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84261&oldid=84181 * S1(210) * (+346)
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04:15:45 <esolangs> [[User:S1(210)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84262&oldid=84261 * S1(210) * (+67)
04:20:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84263&oldid=84236 * S1(210) * (+15) /* F */ added [[Forwards]]
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04:55:12 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84264&oldid=84180 * S1(210) * (+40) making page conform more to esolang's style guide
04:57:04 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84265&oldid=84264 * S1(210) * (+0) /* External Resources */
04:58:01 <esolangs> [[DeBruijn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84266&oldid=84265 * S1(210) * (+1) /* External resources */
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06:10:34 <esolangs> [[Nu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84267&oldid=84260 * Caenbe * (+595) Added Binary Nu
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10:17:53 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (+3837) First commit
10:29:36 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sekoia * New user account
10:35:26 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84269&oldid=84224 * Sekoia * (+102) Introduction
10:36:50 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84270&oldid=84269 * Sekoia * (+54) Fix messup
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10:58:12 <esolangs> [[RGB4D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84271&oldid=84268 * Magnogen * (-2) ProtoBit
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11:10:11 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+1378) Partitioned is a language based around partitions of 255 bytes that share a single byte.
11:11:06 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84273&oldid=84263 * Sekoia * (+18)
11:12:40 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84274&oldid=84272 * Sekoia * (+0) fix category typo
11:24:08 <esolangs> [[Tower]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (+2933) Created page with "= Tower = Tower is an esoteric language meaning it is designed to be fun to use or a headache to program in! This page is a copy of the walkthrough of the Tower also present..."
11:25:03 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84276&oldid=84275 * Sawcce * (-2) /* Tower */
11:25:51 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84277&oldid=84276 * Sawcce * (+42) /* Tower */
11:30:45 <esolangs> [[Tower]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84278&oldid=84277 * Sawcce * (+726) /* Commands */
11:53:36 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84279&oldid=84256 * ResU * (+138)
12:00:27 <esolangs> [[Omgrofl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84280&oldid=58626 * DeeBo * (+73) /* External resources */
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12:20:04 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84281&oldid=84279 * ResU * (+164)
12:20:08 <esolangs> [[Partitioned]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84282&oldid=84274 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Cats, stub, WIP
12:33:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Meloons * New user account
12:45:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84283&oldid=84270 * Meloons * (+200) My description
12:47:00 <esolangs> [[NOTE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84284&oldid=84281 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Cat
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13:27:20 <b_jonas> Corbin: out of curiosity, is your IRC nick supposed to be from a bird too?
13:29:07 <b_jonas> and if so, is it a combinator bird?
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13:43:36 <b_jonas> wait, so the norwegian/danish alphabet is supposed to have the last letters in the order "z æ ø å", but the swedish/finnish alphabet in the incompatible order "z å ä ö"? that decides my earlier question about encoding IRC nicks, the norwegian one is more natural because then the iso-646 encoding order matches the alphabet. but the different alphabetic order is still weird, I wonder how that got
13:43:42 <b_jonas> invented.
13:44:28 <b_jonas> I should have noticed this earlier because I've seen the swedish alphabetic order enough times and did look up the iso-646 encodings and should have noticed that it's in the wrong order
13:50:46 <nakilon> Russian alphabet ends with letters that are like a trash hidden in the corner of the room ШЩЪЫЬ and then suddenly perfectly normal vowels ЭЮЯ
13:59:06 <b_jonas> nakilon: 1. "Ю" is supposed to be a "normal vowel" but it's also one of the rarest letters, though admittedly "Ъ" is even rarer. I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash though. 2. the latin alphabet has trash letters too, in fact even the greek one has some at the end, and holes in the middle for the purpose of gemmatria, to preserve the original phoenician order. the hebrew alphabet is the
13:59:12 <b_jonas> only extant one that does not have trash at the end.
14:03:22 <nakilon> "I don't understand in what sense "Ш" is trash" -- the word traSH is literally ends with Ш; you can see that the "trash consonants ending" actually starts with Ф consonant: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
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14:04:04 <nakilon> Ъ and Ь aren't even either vowel or consonants -- they have no sound and words can start with them
14:04:58 <nakilon> *can't
14:05:33 <b_jonas_> nakilon: sure
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14:06:57 <nakilon> also you can see the Ж being the most rate in the "non-trash half of the alphabet" -- together with Ш they have a rule "can't place Ы after Ж и Ш" (mnemonically known as "ЖИ и ШИ пиши через И")
14:08:34 <nakilon> *most rare
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14:10:52 <nakilon> such rules feel like a waste of entropy -- similar in English only U can go after Q and it's so weird that we didn't even learn it as a rule and I only realised it when I was like 20
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14:11:46 <b_jonas_> nakilon: were you 20 before or after Iraq was featured in the news a lot?
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14:12:07 <nakilon> also Ж and Щ are the most wide letters in any font
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14:13:42 <nakilon> after
14:14:11 <riv> http://forum.enjoysudoku.com/phistomefel-s-theorem-t38410.html
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14:16:27 <b_jonas> nakilon: yeah, I started to make a 6 pixel tall font, with variable width, where most characters are at most 3 pixels wide plus a 1 pixel gap (the gap is omitted between some pairs of characters), but because some letters are hard to draw that way, I have added a three-way option for whether "MNm" are all wide, or "Mm" are wide but "N" is narrow, or every ascii letter is narrow. these options also
14:16:33 <b_jonas> affect the russian letters, and indeed the three pixel wide versions are very ugly and mostly unrecognizable.
14:16:50 <b_jonas> I should eventually finish that tiny font and use it for some esoteric project
14:17:15 <b_jonas> I won't use it for everyday work, I have a large-sized fixed width font for that that I should improve
14:17:30 <b_jonas> (the basics are fine but I have to add some new characters and redo the hastily done greek letters)
14:17:39 <nakilon> OCR developers might hate Ы letter
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14:22:36 <nakilon> can't find English word for https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%B2%D1%8F%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82
14:23:22 <nakilon> ^ my father was связист in the army -- it's where you send and receive in Morze
14:23:48 <Taneb> Signaller?
14:23:54 <Taneb> Radio operator?
14:24:16 <nakilon> so for speed considerations they were told to use Ижица (V) symbol for Ж because Ж was too big https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izhitsa
14:30:13 <nakilon> Taneb yeah, probably this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaller "Signallers, a.k.a. Combat Signallers"
14:30:37 <nakilon> idk what's the exact difference between radio and signalling, радист and связист
14:31:05 <Taneb> Perhaps signallers are also trained with lamps or flags or something
14:31:21 <Taneb> Whereas radio operators have some electric engineering training?
14:32:41 <nakilon> it's weird to use the word "signal" in two so different cases
14:34:54 <nakilon> yes, he was into the https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8E%D0%B1%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%BE (again no link to English wiki ..() that is about fixing and creating electronics yourself
14:36:02 <nakilon> basically he used only radio technologies, no visual stuff, the military base was underground actually
14:37:18 <nakilon> I would expect the English article to be named "Hobby electronics"
14:38:22 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_corps
14:45:00 <Corbin> b_jonas: Ha, that's a fun idea! Curiously, it seems that Smullyan didn't use any corvids (blackbirds, magpies, ravens, rooks, crows, bluejays, etc.) for their bird list.
15:02:30 <keegan> I should finish learning morse
15:05:44 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84285&oldid=83193 * Zero player rodent * (+0)
15:06:27 <esolangs> [[PaRappa]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=84286&oldid=84285 * Zero player rodent * (+2)
15:07:15 <keegan> in amateur radio it is common to use the letter N in place of the numeral 9, for speed (-. versus ----.)
15:08:55 <keegan> so for example a perfect signal report will be given as 5NN [..... -. -.] instead of 599 [..... ----. ----.] for a time savings of more than 50%
15:11:01 <keegan> in the US it is possible to select your callsign (subject to restrictions) and operators who do a lot of CW (morse) will try to get one with a low "weight"
15:11:50 <nakilon> hah, didn't know that
15:13:08 <nakilon> imagine IRC transmitted in morze
15:13:41 <nakilon> `? morse
15:13:43 <HackEso> ​-- ..- .-. ... ..- / --- -. / ... ..- ..- .-. .. -.- --- -.- --- .. -. . -. / ...- . ... .. . .-.. .-.- -- .-.- .-.- -. / ... --- .--. . ..- - ..- -. ..- - / .- .-. -.- - .. -. . -. / -. .. ... .-.- -.- .-.- ... .-.. .- .--- ..
15:13:52 <nakilon> wat
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15:14:12 <nakilon> `morse morse
15:14:13 <HackEso> morse? No such file or directory
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