←2021-07 2021-08 2021-09→ ↑2021 ↑all
2021-08-01
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01:01:19 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86783 * CosmicMan08 * (+1504) Created page with "Stupidbf is a joke derivative of [[Brainfuck]] by CosmicMan08#1975 ([[User:CosmicMan08]]). it sucks lmao == instructions i guess == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Instruction !!..."
01:01:41 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86784&oldid=86783 * CosmicMan08 * (+27)
01:05:03 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86785&oldid=86784 * CosmicMan08 * (-1497) Redirected page to [[Language of Laughing]]
01:05:06 <esolangs> [[Language of Lauging]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86786 * CosmicMan08 * (+1543) Created page with "Language of Laughing is a joke derivative of [[Brainfuck]] by CosmicMan08#1975 ([[User:CosmicMan08]]). it sucks lmao == instructions i guess == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Ins..."
01:06:24 <esolangs> [[Language of Laughing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86787 * CosmicMan08 * (+33) Redirected page to [[Language of Lauging]]
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01:47:03 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is too long for this irc message
01:47:07 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is too long for this irc message
01:48:34 <int-e> passable
01:48:58 <oerjan> ( arseniiv spoke about quasi-Fermatic passwords earlier )
01:50:18 <oerjan> hm this would have been a good use for `# , but of course i never remember that until afterwards
01:50:57 <oerjan> `? `#
01:50:59 <HackEso> ​`# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
02:02:38 <int-e> we should get fizzie to add links from the hackeso repo history pages to the IRC pages (not serious, no clue how feasible that is, but it'd require hacking hgweb for sure)
02:04:06 <fizzie> Hmm. If it's just based on commit timestamp to the date, that'd probably be reasonably easy. If you want it to link to the correct line's anchor, that's probably a little trickier.
02:05:34 <int-e> timestamp is probably fine, especially since the change might have happened off channel
02:05:58 <int-e> but eh... it's really not that hard to do that manually. a bit tedious, sure.
02:07:54 <fizzie> Yeah. I guess it'd actually be more than a "little" tricky to link to the exact line fully reliably, because HackEso and the logging are two separate clients, so they're not guaranteed to see messages in the same order.
02:14:02 <oerjan> fiendish
02:15:40 <oerjan> you could compare the command lines, although there is some escaping i think
02:15:49 <oerjan> (in the logging)
02:19:21 <oerjan> of course the logs can't be seen from inside HackEso
02:19:30 <oerjan> um the irc logs
02:22:39 <oerjan> there is also a slight theoretical ambiguity because `run and plain ` are both stripped and not distinguished iirc
02:24:30 <oerjan> `date
02:24:31 <HackEso> Sun Aug 1 02:24:30 UTC 2021
02:27:25 <oerjan> `dowg password
02:27:27 <HackEso> 12414:2021-08-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is too long for this irc message \ 12408:2021-07-01 <arseniïv> learn The password of the month is tempting in retrospect \ 12397:2021-06-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat. \ 12377:2021-05-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is heavily guarded. \ 12374:2021-04-06 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is hiding in plain sight. \ 12372:2021-03-04 <in
02:33:24 <oerjan> HackEso could probably collect all the info and build a url, and then there could be a web page that decoded it and searched to the right place. i presume. i don't know the web side of things.
02:46:49 <b_jonas> ` have you changed the error message for this?
02:46:50 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
02:46:54 <b_jonas> `/ or for this
02:46:55 <HackEso> ​/? Permission denied
02:46:58 <b_jonas> no. good.
02:47:13 <b_jonas> in what way is plain ` "stripped"?
02:48:32 <b_jonas> oh, you mean when HackEso records the commands in its hg log? or some internal log for fizzie when they don't modify anything?
02:53:59 <oerjan> the former. how would i know about fizzie's internal logs?
02:54:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think the hg commit message isn't entirely unambiguous.
02:55:08 <oerjan> although `run is pretty rare these days.
02:58:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: fizzie might tell about them, or you might have read the source code
02:59:02 <b_jonas> I almost never use `run but I *should*. it's an easy way to avoid rnoodl. ideally I should reimplement rnoodl to make it less mentally annoying, but I'm lazy.
03:00:10 <b_jonas> though part of the problem is that even after I reimplement it, I'll still hate it, and want it not to be present in commands that I run
03:00:56 <oerjan> `` printenv
03:01:04 <HackEso> IRC_NICK=oerjan \ PWD=/hackenv/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ HOME=/tmp \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ IRC_NETWORK=Libera.Chat \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_IDENT=oerjan \ TERM=linux \ IRC_INSTANCE=HackEso-libera \ SHLVL=1 \ http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128 \ IRC_HOST=sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ IRC_MESSAGE=`` printenv \ _=/usr/bin/printenv
03:01:26 <oerjan> `cbt rnoodl
03:01:28 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/rnoodl: No such file or directory
03:01:32 <oerjan> `cbt rnooodl
03:01:35 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
03:02:42 <b_jonas> I'm fine with wisdom and \? running rnoodl to be clear, it's just \` and \`\` where I think it shouldn't run
03:02:59 <oerjan> hm
03:04:21 <b_jonas> if you want to balance it out, make quote run rnoodl
03:05:06 <b_jonas> admittedly that would lead to a nested rnoodl syndrome, similar to the leaning toothpick syndrome, where some quotes contain lines that HackEso said and were already rnoodled
03:05:38 <b_jonas> no wait, it wouldn't!
03:05:53 <b_jonas> rnoodl only affects exactly three os, not more than three
03:05:53 <b_jonas> great
03:07:14 <b_jonas> the part of rnoodl that I hate is that it buffers too much. if a command ran with backtick prints a partial line then times out, you won't see that output, because rnoodl swallows it. there is never any reason for rnoodl to not print any input immediately, except sometimes the single last character when it just read something ending in "nood".
03:07:39 <b_jonas> something ending in "noood", sorry
03:08:08 <b_jonas> so a good implementation of rnoodl should write immediately after a read, except for that last "d", which it should ideally write after a short timeout
03:09:16 * oerjan goes to get some chocolate
03:12:13 <b_jonas> I did consider just modifying \` or \`\` to not run rnoodl, but I think that would be reverted quickly. I did consider modifying them to not run rnoodl if I (b_jonas) am running the command, but that would be reverted too, perhaps slightly less quickly. I even considered modifying \` or \`\` to not run rnoodl if I'm running it and hiding my tracks by modifying cbt and creating /bin/cat such that they
03:12:19 <b_jonas> both write a fake output if you cbt \` or cbt cbt or cbt cat, probably with some other extra behavior in cat to justify why I created it, and that would take much longer to discover, but after that you'd be much angrier with me.
03:13:40 <b_jonas> so my best option is probably to make a good implementation for rnoodl, and also modify *that* to exec cat when I'm running the command, or perhaps exec cat when I'm running the command and the command is \` rather than \q
03:13:56 <b_jonas> that would probably not get reverted, but it requires work
03:17:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lexinathan * New user account
03:18:57 <b_jonas> of course I'm never really sure about what would get reverted, and the general problem of what gets reverted on a wiki and what gets to stay is probably politics-complete, i.e. harder than what humans can currently do
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03:20:13 <b_jonas> if you had repeated calls to an oracle that could predict if a change gets reverted on a wiki, you could probably use that to find optimal solutions to any political problem, like what the heck to do with the middle east
03:21:33 <b_jonas> well no, probably not find *optimal* solutions, just find solutions exponentially close in value to the optimal
03:23:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86788&oldid=86778 * Lexinathan * (+239) /* Introductions of Lexinathan */
03:23:21 <fizzie> What I've been thinking I should do is to make the log web pages produce proper cache validation headers (ETag and/or Last-Modified), because currently they contain none, but the content of past days never changes. Except (and that's probably the reason why I haven't done it yet) if I change something in the formatting.
03:24:22 <fizzie> Here's something I can never remember: which one out of the `-i` and `-I` flags of curl is the one that does just a HEAD request, vs. the one that does a normal GET request but also prints the headers as part of the output. There's probably some kind of a mnemonic for it.
03:26:05 <orichalcumcosmon> fizzie: `-I`
03:26:33 <orichalcumcosmon> also called `--head`
03:26:38 <fizzie> Yes, I mean, I can look it up and/or just determine it empirically, the problem is remembering it the next time.
03:26:49 <fizzie> Maybe the long flags would be more memorable.
03:27:06 <fizzie> Though I'm quite capable of remembering that -i and -I do those two things, just not which one is which.
03:27:15 <esolangs> [[User:Lexinathan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86789 * Lexinathan * (+107) me
03:29:21 <oerjan> "but that would be reverted too" <-- ye of little faith, we'd just expand it to read share/rnooodlhaters hth
03:34:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: -i for "include" header; -I is an uppercase letter to set the HTTP method, and http methods are usually written in uppercase
03:35:47 <b_jonas> -G means to set the method to GET; POST is the default if you give a body to post, and you can't post with no body (you can post with empty body but that's different); but -H was already used for something more important, so it's -I
03:36:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> if you had repeated calls to an oracle that could predict [...] <-- this seems related to option 3 here https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/updated-look-at-long-term-ai-risks
03:37:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: alternately, don't try to remember -i at all, instead try to remember -D to dump the header, but remember -D to print headers to a separate file, and use -D - instead, or -D with the same filename as where the normal output goes
03:37:24 <b_jonas> um no, not that latter
03:37:31 <b_jonas> -D - instead, and redirect to a file if you wish
03:37:56 <b_jonas> you rarely want to include headers in the same stream when you write a script, and when you just examine the output then -D - ... | less will work
03:40:30 <b_jonas> but you do sometimes want headers in a separate file when you're writing a script, so remembering -D in general is more useful
03:41:50 <b_jonas> in practice, I remember almost none of those options, not -I, not -i, I look up everything in the manual except maybe sometimes -sS or whatever that pair of options is to mute the default performance info output on stderr when I'm writing to a file but still print errors
03:42:01 <b_jonas> I don't even know if it's -sS or -sq or -qQ or whatever
03:42:17 <b_jonas> yeah, looked it up, it's -sS
03:42:25 <b_jonas> curl is hard to use without looking up
03:43:05 <b_jonas> ideally I should implement a better downloading tool that does exactly what I need -- I have written one, wgetas, but that was like twelve years ago, the program sucks, my needs changed, etc
03:43:24 <b_jonas> and if I write the program, then I will set its syntax to something I remember
03:44:00 <esolangs> [[User:OrichalcumCosmonaut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86790&oldid=86762 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (-18) pronoun.is has an ?or= query parameter
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06:13:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86791&oldid=86759 * KakkoiiChris * (+114) /* Operators */ Added increment and decrement operators to precedence tables
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06:30:43 <zzo38> Now I wrote a PostScript code for parsing command-line switches, like getopt but always like POSIXLY_CORRECT mode. So, you can write: /Verbose false def << /v [/N {pop /Verbose true def}] >> (getopt.ps) run Verbose ==
06:35:36 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/qT0uzl
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09:33:12 <nakilon> lmao
09:33:18 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Gpi3LQn.png
09:33:47 <nakilon> found this edit in my library README dated to Oct 19 2020
09:35:45 <nakilon> and I have no idea what the hell is the bug there
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14:18:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * R3D * New user account
14:28:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86792&oldid=32131 * Rdococ * (+367)
14:29:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86793&oldid=86792 * Rdococ * (+3)
14:34:44 <riv> are there any AIs based on bayes law?
14:37:59 <Corbin> I'm imagining that, given a function which we are trying to optimize, we could estimate intervals around the minima. The edges of these intervals (their "boundary") would have a gradient based on the function's derivative.
14:38:47 <riv> the AI should make decisions based on logic and bayes law, to pick the best action
14:38:48 <Corbin> Given an evaluation of the function within any particular interval, we can improve our knowledge of that interval's minimum, and tighten the bounds.
14:39:21 <Corbin> This connects Bayes' law (information about minima) with differentiation-oriented optimization (information about gradients near minima).
14:39:55 <nakilon> looks like I finished the thing that finds the words in channel names
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14:40:30 <riv> nakilon, can you show the code and explain it
14:41:05 <riv> Corbin, what about if everything was over finite sets?
14:41:16 <riv> then i wont have derivatives
14:41:30 <riv> e.g. an AI in a discrete simulated world
14:41:47 <nakilon> explaining it would probably take the same amount of time I wrote it lol
14:42:04 <nakilon> here is the result: https://dpaste.org/6LwV/slim
14:43:17 <Corbin> riv: Then the useful parts of (warning: memetic hazard!) https://intelligence.org/files/LogicalInduction.pdf apply, and we get 0-1 integer programming (Boolean circuits), which is NP-complete.
14:43:26 <nakilon> I see no errors except probably the line #32 that is a part of "cryptocurrency", should grep to see the input with this substring
14:44:20 <riv> the result makes no sense
14:44:53 <riv> how was this computed
14:45:14 <riv> there was many channels with pokemongo in the name?
14:46:13 <Corbin> riv: That said, somebody does have a recipe for creating generic AIs: https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/goedelmachine.html As it evolves over time, it naturally exhibits Bayes' law by improving the explanatory power of its inner model.
14:46:15 <nakilon> example piece of input https://i.imgur.com/AqHIn9K.png
14:46:59 <riv> interesting
14:47:07 <riv> can you tell me how it does this nakilon ?
14:47:10 <nakilon> example piece with pokemongo https://i.imgur.com/7p1q88m.png
14:47:40 <riv> there is a tension between length of substring and number of matches
14:47:46 <riv> the longer a substring is the fewer matches it has
14:47:52 <riv> how do you balance it?
14:48:05 <riv> is there a name for this problem you solved?
14:48:31 <nakilon> I have no idea about the name
14:48:56 <nakilon> I asked local NLP chat and googled, found no existing solution
14:51:02 <riv> input is a set of I of N strings, output is a set O of M strings. You want M << N and you want entropy H(I|O) to be much smaller than H(O) I guess could be a way to set it up
14:51:08 <riv> i dont know for sure if that's right
14:51:36 <riv> correction H(I|O) to be much smaller than H(I)
14:51:51 <riv> maybe it's nonsense
14:52:05 <riv> the idea is that I can be compressed well using O
14:53:41 <riv> I think it's the wrong way to think about it, I am trying to make anything a nail for this hammer im reading about now
14:56:12 <riv> we want to find "common" substrings in a set of strings. Call a substring of length n common if it occurs more than log(n) times.
14:57:08 <nakilon> if you want to code and try to achieve the same success I can give you the input
14:57:26 <riv> I have no idea how to code this, that's part of why i find it interesting
14:57:44 <riv> I would maybe try to adapt LZW
14:58:11 <riv> I think LZW is not just a random dictionary compression alg. I think it is the canonical universal compression alg (for ergodic sources)
14:59:22 <riv> It will be nice if you tell how you coded it
14:59:39 <riv> but if you dont want to that's ok
15:01:44 <nakilon> omg almost deleted the source code
15:01:55 <nakilon> thanks Sublime
15:02:22 <nakilon> that the file was still open in it
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15:04:04 <nakilon> "but if you dont want" -- no, it's just complex
15:04:51 <nakilon> and involves my know-how algorithm twice
15:06:37 <nakilon> "I would maybe try to adapt LZW" -- I asked here like 3 days ago about it if there is "some text compression CLI with debug option to see common substrings"
15:07:20 <nakilon> (I'm still lazy to make any search functionality for my IRC logs)
15:07:47 <nakilon> anyway, there was no answer
15:08:33 <riv> you should use git
15:09:00 <riv> LZW is just an alg, not a specific command line program
15:09:12 <riv> so i would need to code it from scratch, especially to get common substrings out
15:09:30 <riv> know-how algorithm?
15:12:08 <nakilon> "you should use git" -- I didn't have any good results until the last hour so I didn't commit
15:13:28 <nakilon> I call it PCBR (Pairs Comparison Based Rating) -- very universal thing for sorting tables
15:14:27 <nakilon> works better than more classic heuristics functions that you apply "to sort tables by multiple axes at the same time"
15:15:47 <nakilon> it's like round-robin chess tourney but with some details
15:19:46 <riv> oh that is cool!
15:24:56 <nakilon> back in 2013 I wanted to figure out who's the best player on my fav Quake map so I've scraped thousands of player profile stats; the approach didn't work better than just dividing "score / time played" with some heuristics, idk why, but that was the start
15:26:39 <nakilon> then in 2015 I reimagined it and applied to filter the RSS feeds to leave only the most interesting posts based on their stats like score/comments/age and properties of the tags they belong to -- worked well so I made a gem
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15:29:03 <fizzie> We have an unsupervised-learning thing for morpheme extraction, that's pretty much the same problem I think.
15:29:20 <riv> morpheme extraction...
15:29:31 <fizzie> Although if I remember right, we really didn't care if the result was "correct", just that it works well.
15:30:02 <nakilon> in 2016 I decided to automate the moderation of the content in the company I worked at -- the 1-nn worked well after I've optimized the training set of 2000 items throwing away ~500 of them, and since you can't retrain the model 2^2000 time I used the PCBR to effectively traverse the tree of throwingouts
15:30:21 <fizzie> http://morpho.aalto.fi/events/morphochallenge/ -- it was an almost-annual challenge kind of a thing for some time.
15:31:37 <nakilon> and after these "milestones" I started to apply the PCBR so often for my scriptings it would be too big list to describe
15:32:04 <fizzie> And https://github.com/aalto-speech/morfessor for the piece of software. Not sure how obsolete it is these days.
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15:33:02 <nakilon> the first time I've realised the things works I tried to find it in any books to name the gem properly but couldn't so I had to make my own name for it; later I tried to google it again and only found a bunch of math topics on wikipedia, still no exact match
15:40:33 <nakilon> oh, found those links
15:40:38 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-criteria_decision_analysis
15:40:46 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-objective_optimization
15:46:10 <nakilon> fizzie what is the first column? frequency?
15:47:49 <nakilon> (here http://morpho.aalto.fi/events/morphochallenge2010/data/wordlist-2010.eng)
15:50:37 <fizzie> Yes.
15:56:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86794&oldid=86788 * R3D * (+100)
15:57:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86795&oldid=86794 * R3D * (+17)
15:59:33 <esolangs> [[User:R3D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86796 * R3D * (+178) Created page with "hello, i'm R3D, and i have created some esolangs (Deadmind, LTCBCBYCII, RPL) check it out if you can contact me (if any interpreter bugs): discord: R3D#9999 github: redleader167"
15:59:52 <esolangs> [[User:R3D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86797&oldid=86796 * R3D * (+4)
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17:55:28 <esolangs> [[Pith]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86798&oldid=86407 * ZippyMagician * (+1318) Clean up page
17:57:55 <esolangs> [[Pith]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86799&oldid=86798 * ZippyMagician * (+14) Change wording of - operator notes
18:01:23 <riv> ok here's my plan
18:01:45 <riv> since we have a lot of short strings, it should be ok to just make a histogram of every contiguous substring of each string
18:01:59 <riv> I think that means you multiply the number of strings by T(n) essentially
18:02:08 <riv> O(m * n^2)
18:02:13 <riv> m number of strings, n length of strings
18:02:43 <riv> then i want to pick ones that have a good score
18:03:03 <riv> where score is some function that likes length and frequency
18:03:14 <riv> possibly log(length)
18:03:36 <riv> there's a lot of free parameters to mess with there, which is not great
18:04:12 <riv> what do you think of this approach?
18:17:44 <arseniiv> sorry to interrupt
18:17:47 <arseniiv> `? password
18:17:54 <HackEso> The password of the month is too long for this irc message
18:18:02 <arseniiv> ha :)
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19:13:13 <esolangs> [[LTMCBCBYCII]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86800 * R3D * (+4838) Created page with "Esolang, created by [[User:R3D|R3D]] in July 2021. Full name is Language That May Cause Brain Cancer But You Can Ignore It, the shortest one is BCL. Heavily inspired by IN..."
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19:40:23 <riv> hm so the problem I have with my idea is that I get substrings of substrings in my output
19:42:19 <riv> nakilon, https://bpa.st/5P6A
19:42:41 <riv> i dont think its as good as your approach
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19:59:35 <riv> > k -common substring problem: Given m strings of total length n, for all k with 2≤k≤m simultaneously find a longest substring common to at least k of the strings. It is known that the k-common substring problem can also be solved in O(n) time
19:59:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:46: error: parse error on input ‘of’
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20:54:35 <zzo38> My opinion is I think that the POSIXLY_CORRECT mode of getopt is better.
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20:56:31 <riv> POSIXLY_CORRECT? lol
20:59:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: for getopt, I agree that it's better than the GNU mode
20:59:07 <b_jonas> but I can mostly deal with both
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20:59:41 <b_jonas> I try to write my scripts in a way that they work with both when I invoke a program, so put options first but still put ./ at the start of filenames that start with a hyphen etc
20:59:54 <b_jonas> and -e before a grep pattern that starts with a hyphen
21:01:56 <zzo38> So, the implementation I wrote in PostScript is always using the POSIXLY_CORRECT
21:02:35 <zzo38> But when I write script calling other programs also I will do things like you mention, and using -- in case there might need other file names/arguments with - at first, too
21:04:02 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86801&oldid=86717 * Oshaboy * (+6) Formatting
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22:29:36 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86802&oldid=86308 * PolySaken * (+70) /* Computational Class */
22:47:25 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86803&oldid=86802 * PolySaken * (-70) /* Computational Class */
22:53:19 <esolangs> [[Unhaltingfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86804 * Silver * (+1680) page created, along with haltingfuck
22:53:21 <esolangs> [[Haltingfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86805 * Silver * (+1472) page created, along with unhaltingfuck
22:54:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86806&oldid=86771 * Silver * (+38)
22:58:07 <esolangs> [[User:Silver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86807&oldid=86284 * Silver * (+74)
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2021-08-02
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00:28:54 <esolangs> [[Haltingfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86808&oldid=86805 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* UnHaltingFuck */ Cat
01:17:10 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86809&oldid=86326 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Instructions */
01:17:35 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86810&oldid=86809 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Instructions */
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06:57:43 <nakilon> 21:03:36 <riv> there's a lot of free parameters to mess with
06:57:48 <nakilon> I had only two
06:58:32 <nakilon> one real parameter and another one -- I took only 15000 of 50000 of input strings, heh, or it would take a day to calculate
06:59:29 <nakilon> 22:42:20 <riv> nakilon, https://bpa.st/5P6A
06:59:36 <nakilon> yeah only 3 first are good, the rest is broken
07:01:21 <nakilon> the next valid word is only 37, and 20 is a Russian word if you strip the _
07:01:47 <nakilon> rabota = job
07:02:56 <nakilon> I suppose 15000 is big enough to not miss popular words, among the top-100 list that it produced
07:03:16 <nakilon> the next 100 had several errors, didn't count
07:08:44 <nakilon> 117 nofficial 160 erchat 164 ernet 175 nchain etc. and some of them are weird but can be real words from languages I don't know
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08:58:13 <nakilon> Stupid chrome forgets basic auth both on desktop and mobile
08:58:28 <nakilon> I use it for my thelounge
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13:04:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gducrash * New user account
13:15:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86811&oldid=86795 * Gducrash * (+229) /* Introductions */
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13:42:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zouguangchen * New user account
14:18:32 <esolangs> [[LTMCBCBYCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86812&oldid=86800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) Unpipe
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16:27:31 <riv> hi
16:28:20 <int-e> `"
16:28:22 <HackEso> 1/1:892) <evincar> okay so like <evincar> do <fizzie> Or do not? <evincar> no no <evincar> do <evincar> There is no do not. \ 824) <shachaf> Do physicists have half-life crises?
16:29:57 <riv> wow
16:30:02 <riv> `',
16:30:06 <HackEso> ​',? No such file or directory
16:30:41 <fizzie> `'
16:30:43 <HackEso> 852) <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
16:30:49 <fizzie> A single quote and a double quote. Checks out.
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16:49:02 <int-e> https://gitlab.com/gpsd/gpsd/-/issues/144 is funny: "We would have gotten away with it too if there had been a leap second in the meantime"
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17:06:35 <int-e> Woah, I'd never heard of global warming making Earth spin faster.
17:07:14 <int-e> (apparently explaining the recent lack of leap seconds)
17:07:29 <riv> we literally can't predict leap seconds
17:07:38 <riv> there's never been any leap seconds removed either
17:08:10 <int-e> that's what I thought so far :P
17:09:42 <int-e> Hmm, maybe I have the orders of magnitude incorrect.
17:10:38 <esolangs> [[User:Epidemic7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86813&oldid=83961 * Epidemic7 * (-220) Blanked the page
17:12:53 <int-e> So, eh, not sure it explains anything. But it's still an interesting phenomenon. I /think/ it says that the effect slightly outweighs the tidal slowdown in their scenario, resulting in a speedup of 0.12ms over 200 years rather than a slowdown by 4.6ms.
17:13:14 <int-e> But the article could be written more clearly...
17:14:24 <riv> I read that the causes of variation of spin time are not all known
17:14:30 <riv> and the ones that are known are chaotic
17:16:20 <int-e> More weirdness: "Over the past 3000 years, the core of the Earth has been speeding up a little, and the mantle-crust on which we stand is slowing down." https://phys.org/news/2015-12-scientists-reveal-rotation-earth-core.html
17:16:37 <riv> D:
17:19:17 <int-e> Ah, at least there are a couple of mechanisms that I can understand: 1) As glaciers melt, melted water moves closer to the Earth's axis. 2) As arctic and antarctic ice melt, there's less pressure pushing the poles into the earth, so it becomes a little bit rounder, moving the whole surface closer to the center.
17:19:42 <int-e> And by "understand" I mean they're plausible :P
17:20:29 <int-e> I have no hope of estimating how big those effects are without some serious study.
17:23:56 <int-e> (Which won't happen :P)
17:26:01 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86814&oldid=86780 * TheJonyMyster * (+32) cornercase
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18:17:46 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86815&oldid=86791 * KakkoiiChris * (-57) Reduced section levels by one, and added a 'Design Pattern' section
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18:19:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86816&oldid=86815 * KakkoiiChris * (-24) /* History */ Removed section separators
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18:36:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86817&oldid=86816 * KakkoiiChris * (+152) /* Values */ Testing same page link
18:36:56 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86818&oldid=86817 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Values */
18:40:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86819&oldid=86818 * KakkoiiChris * (+5) /* Values */ Added note about integers and conversion
18:42:11 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86820&oldid=86819 * KakkoiiChris * (-7) /* V4 */ Changed wording of data type in last paragraph
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18:44:37 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86821&oldid=86820 * KakkoiiChris * (+80) /* V5 */ Added memory space upgrade to new features added
18:57:40 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86822&oldid=86821 * KakkoiiChris * (+484) Added more planned sections
18:57:58 <esolangs> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86823&oldid=86408 * ZippyMagician * (-2) Remove befunge from favorites
19:03:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86824&oldid=86822 * KakkoiiChris * (-5) /* History */ Moved sentence from V2 to V1
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19:33:29 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86825 * Gducrash * (+1400) Initial release (work in progress)
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20:04:57 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris has a function for tidal acceleration; is that related to things that you mention?
20:09:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86826&oldid=86806 * TheJonyMyster * (+14) added headass to language list
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20:32:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86827&oldid=86824 * KakkoiiChris * (+5251) /* Command Line Tool */ Filled out all CLI sections
20:36:51 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86828&oldid=86827 * KakkoiiChris * (+261) /* File */ Elaborated on the Interpreter return value
20:38:22 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86829&oldid=86828 * KakkoiiChris * (+34) /* File */ Fixed wording in last sentence
20:39:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86830&oldid=86829 * KakkoiiChris * (-18) /* Numbers */ Added table header
20:40:17 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86831&oldid=86830 * KakkoiiChris * (-10) /* Booleans */ Added table header
20:41:19 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86832&oldid=86831 * KakkoiiChris * (-27) /* Characters */ Added table header
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20:50:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86833&oldid=86832 * KakkoiiChris * (+1) /* Characters */ Fixed wording
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21:48:38 <int-e> Ah, IBM Ponder This is back to normal (a bit of number crunching).
21:49:13 <fizzie> But is it really a "Starship" if it doesn't get any closer to any other star than the one it starts next to?
21:52:29 <int-e> Where did starships come up?
21:55:17 <fizzie> They didn't, that was apropos of nothing.
21:55:54 <fizzie> I was reading an article about some photos Uncle Elon had posted in the context of an orbital visit.
21:56:20 <int-e> Well, still lifes aren't considered to be starships, so maybe that's your answer.
21:56:40 <int-e> Ah, that thing.
21:57:06 <fizzie> Aren't those called spaceships in Life anyway?
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21:57:50 <int-e> Ah, right.
21:58:20 <fizzie> If Elon's was called the Spaceship, I couldn't complain, because it does go to space.
21:58:56 <int-e> I see. What about a solar probe?
21:59:53 <fizzie> I guess that could be a starship. Have we actually sent anything into the Sun though?
22:00:40 <fizzie> "The Parker Solar Probe is the first spacecraft to fly into the low solar corona." Maybe that will count.
22:01:29 <fizzie> Although they say it'll be "within 9.86 solar radii -- from the center of the Sun", and I guess really it should be strictly less than 1.
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22:02:39 <fizzie> "The solar radius is usually defined as the radius to the layer in the Sun's photosphere where the optical depth equals 2/3." Sounds pretty arbitrary.
22:03:25 <int-e> oh, so it's not a starship unless it actually burns up in one?
22:05:07 <fizzie> Well, I mean, I think that's maybe a little negative. But I think maybe it should either touch a star, or alternatively there should exist a point during its journey when the nearest star is not the same as at some other point.
22:05:14 <int-e> Hmm, can C++ break out of several loops without using goto yet...
22:05:23 <int-e> (not exceptions)
22:05:29 <int-e> s/not/nor/
22:06:26 <fizzie> I don't think they've added that.
22:06:30 <int-e> Pfft: "No, don't spoil it with a break. This is the last remaining stronghold for the use of goto."
22:06:47 <Thelie> I mean the Vikings already knew that burning ships is the way to go.
22:07:13 <fizzie> Which languages have a multi-level break where the operand is an integer denoting the number of loops to break, rather than a label? And of those languages, how many allow the integer to be non-constant?
22:07:30 <fizzie> PHP at least.
22:07:33 <shachaf> Oh boy.
22:07:46 <fizzie> Actually, I don't know if it can be a non-constant, but I'd sort of expect.
22:08:44 <fizzie> "PHP Fatal error: 'break' operator with non-integer operand is no longer supported" :/ :\
22:08:54 <fizzie> I do note the "no longer" in there though.
22:09:06 <int-e> TFW... bugs make your program better.
22:11:40 <shachaf> PHP is now developed by a bunch of cowards.
22:11:47 <shachaf> I bet they don't use strlen as their hash function anymore either.
22:18:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think dc has such a multi-level break
22:19:31 <int-e> UGH, why do people hate contrast so much
22:19:59 <int-e> (cf. source code examples from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minim ...except for the yellow used for brackets)
22:20:09 <b_jonas> it's the Q command in dc
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22:21:50 <fizzie> int-e: That's a pretty excessive example. Especially the string literals and comments.
22:22:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, and there's Intercal, I think it has a dynamic multi-level break too
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22:23:41 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86834&oldid=86833 * KakkoiiChris * (+144) /* Statements */ Added Memory Push and Memory Pop stubs
22:24:16 <int-e> well, it's a multi-level return
22:24:26 <int-e> (same for dc)
22:24:35 <int-e> it's not quite the same :P
22:25:06 <fizzie> "This is because the easiest way to implement an if-like construct in INTERCAL-72 is by NEXTING, then NEXTING again, then RESUMING either by 1 or 2 according to an expression, and then if the expression evaluated to 1 FORGETTING the remaining NEXT stack entry." It's a nice manual.
22:25:35 <b_jonas> does words (the program in HackEso) have an evaluate mode, as opposed to a generate mode, so that you give it a word, and it outputs the information (log probability) in it based on the model?
22:26:09 <fizzie> I don't think it has that implemented.
22:26:21 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, but in dc about the only way to write a loop is by repeatedly executing a macro, so that's what a multi-level break should look like
22:26:27 <b_jonas> as in tail-recursing a macro
22:26:55 <int-e> yeah, which is why I only interjected when you brought it up for intercal
22:27:50 <fizzie> I think you need some lexical blocks in the language in order for a dynamic multi-level break to feel ridiculous.
22:28:12 <fizzie> Can a PHP break cross function boundaries?
22:28:21 <b_jonas> I think I saw something like this in a language besides the ones we mentioned
22:28:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86835&oldid=86834 * KakkoiiChris * (+4) /* Fibonacci */ Added link
22:29:25 <int-e> I ended up with this... https://paste.debian.net/1206394/ (top: what I wanted, bottom: the result)
22:30:24 <int-e> err, I messed up the hypothetical code, didn't I.
22:30:26 <int-e> whatever
22:31:36 <b_jonas> ah yes, (0) has multi-level break using a number that gives the depth, but only for a constant depth, not dynamic. the language spec doesn't say if it works past a function boundary, I assumed no because that was convenient because I wanted to transpile the language, not implement something in it.
22:32:09 <b_jonas> that's where I must have seen it
22:32:56 <fizzie> `BEGIN AGAIN` in Forth is an infinite loop, which doesn't really fit the English meaning of that sentence fragment.
22:32:57 <HackEso> BEGIN? No such file or directory
22:36:07 <fizzie> Wonder if there's any production Forth code that says at some point ... THEN BEGIN AGAIN ... that's there, e.g., to give a supposedly unreachable piece of code defined semantics of just hanging up in there.
22:38:42 <fizzie> `` ulimit -t 1; forth ': foo if ." all good" exit then begin again ; 0 foo' # or something along those lines
22:38:44 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: 52 Killed forth ': foo if ." all good" exit then begin again ; 0 foo'
22:42:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that like the infamous {redo} in perl?
22:43:33 <b_jonas> which geo knows as (*)
22:43:57 <b_jonas> (shows that you can express useless stuff easily in that language, but not useful stuff)
22:45:43 <b_jonas> apparently today's https://xkcd.com/2497/ mentions something that has come up often on #esoteric
22:53:23 <fizzie> Forth control structures are pretty flexible. The compilation semantics of `BEGIN` push the address of the next word to the control-flow stack, and `AGAIN` pops it. `UNTIL` is the same except it also pops a value at run-time to decide whether to follow the branch or not. So while you can use BEGIN ... <cond> UNTIL for `do {...} while (!cond)` and `BEGIN ... AGAIN` for `for (;;) {...}` loops, you
22:53:24 <fizzie> can also just mix the words up if you happen to need something strange. (I'm not very good at Forth.)
22:55:32 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86836&oldid=86835 * KakkoiiChris * (+15313) /* Fibonacci */ Added syntax highlighting
23:05:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86837&oldid=86836 * KakkoiiChris * (+37) /* Characters */ Added double quote
23:06:25 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86838&oldid=86837 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Characters */ Fixed double quote name
23:11:11 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86839&oldid=86838 * KakkoiiChris * (+152) /* Size (-s) */ Added formatting to examples
23:12:18 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86840&oldid=86839 * KakkoiiChris * (-5) /* Comments */ Removed separators
23:12:38 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86841&oldid=86840 * KakkoiiChris * (-5) /* Memory */ Removed separators
23:13:33 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86842&oldid=86841 * KakkoiiChris * (-35) /* Memory */ Removed separators
23:13:56 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86843&oldid=86842 * KakkoiiChris * (-10) /* Memory */ Removed separators
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23:36:56 <zzo38> I don't like the conditions of dc much and I think that arithmetic if would be a better command to add into dc for implementing conditions
23:47:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86844&oldid=79818 * CosmicMan08 * (+610) /* Python Interpreter */ new section
2021-08-03
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01:30:29 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86845&oldid=86843 * KakkoiiChris * (+2277) /* Operators */ Added the rest of the unique operators
01:55:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86846&oldid=86845 * KakkoiiChris * (+547) /* Statements */ Elaborated on the statements
02:03:56 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86847&oldid=86740 * Digital Hunter * (-18) /* Parse this sic */ shorter
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02:22:52 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86848&oldid=86847 * Digital Hunter * (-55) /* Parse this sic */ sorry about the recent edit spree. Most compliant interpreter I could come up with, and it's pretty cute too. Tested thoroughly.
02:28:06 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86849&oldid=86846 * KakkoiiChris * (+601) /* Design Patterns */ Added exit design pattern.
02:29:35 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86850&oldid=86849 * KakkoiiChris * (+56) /* Goto (_<) */ Updated goto definition
02:30:07 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86851&oldid=86850 * KakkoiiChris * (+55) /* Gosub (_+) */ Updated gosub definition
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04:30:00 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86852&oldid=86851 * KakkoiiChris * (+5) /* Design Patterns */ Fixed typo
04:36:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86853&oldid=86852 * KakkoiiChris * (+82) Added to paradigms in info box
04:39:40 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86854&oldid=86853 * KakkoiiChris * (+104) Added categories
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05:46:55 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86855&oldid=86854 * KakkoiiChris * (+199) /* Comments */ Added syntax highlighting
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05:52:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86856&oldid=86855 * KakkoiiChris * (+411) /* Values */ Added syntax highlighting
05:54:10 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86857&oldid=86856 * KakkoiiChris * (+2724) /* Arrays */ Added syntax highlighting
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06:17:31 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86858&oldid=86857 * KakkoiiChris * (+8542) /* Memory */ Added syntax highlighting
06:19:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86859&oldid=86858 * KakkoiiChris * (+12) /* Relative Range Access */ Added syntax highlighting
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06:47:53 <zzo38> Does any format use floating point RLE?
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08:17:29 <esolangs> [[Ppencode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86860 * YamTokTpaFa * (+4674) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''ppencode''' is #a subset of [[Wikipedia:Perl|Perl]] who restricts source code to have only Perl keywords, defined by Yoshino TAKESAKO in 2005, #a Perl program..."
08:19:24 <esolangs> [[Ppencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86861&oldid=86860 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1) /* Syntax */
09:47:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86862&oldid=86811 * Zouguangchen * (+73)
09:49:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86863&oldid=86862 * Zouguangchen * (+62)
09:56:29 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86864&oldid=86825 * Gducrash * (+5792) Added syntax rules and a list of commands
09:58:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Gducrash * uploaded "[[File:Ucrash.jpg]]"
10:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:Gducrash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86866 * Gducrash * (+147) My page yay!
10:11:35 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86867&oldid=86864 * Gducrash * (+92) Added categories
10:12:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86868&oldid=86826 * Gducrash * (+16) added AsciiFunc
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10:37:29 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86869&oldid=86867 * Gducrash * (+1829) Added examples, improved syntax description and infobox
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11:14:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gabryx64 * New user account
11:20:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86870&oldid=86863 * Gabryx64 * (+192) /* Introductions */
11:21:18 <esolangs> [[User:Gabryx64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86871 * Gabryx64 * (+2) Created page with "Hi"
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11:42:49 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86872 * Gabryx64 * (+663) Sus
11:43:24 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86873&oldid=86872 * Gabryx64 * (-2) /* Sussylang */
11:45:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86874&oldid=86868 * Gabryx64 * (+16) /* S */
11:47:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86875&oldid=86874 * Gabryx64 * (+0) Undo revision 86874 by [[Special:Contributions/Gabryx64|Gabryx64]] ([[User talk:Gabryx64|talk]])
11:48:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86876&oldid=86373 * Gabryx64 * (+33) /* General languages */
11:58:11 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86877&oldid=86873 * Gabryx64 * (-7) /* Truth Machine */
11:58:20 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86878&oldid=86877 * Gabryx64 * (-7) /* Sussy World!(\n) */
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12:22:00 <esolangs> [[User:R3D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86879&oldid=86797 * R3D * (+1)
12:53:16 <esolangs> [[Aboba]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86880 * R3D * (+2383) Created page with "An esolang created in 1 day. Inspired by Brainfuck, but very different from it. Should be turing complete. Extensions: <code>.b</code>. ===Instructions=== {| class="wiki..."
13:03:33 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86881&oldid=86878 * Gabryx64 * (+0) /* Sussylang */
13:03:38 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86882&oldid=86814 * TheJonyMyster * (+1063) turing complete!! woo!!
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13:43:29 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86883&oldid=86881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Cats
13:49:59 <esolangs> [[User:Gabryx64/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86884 * Gabryx64 * (+51) Created page with "#html { filter: invert(1) hue-rotate(180deg); }"
13:51:33 <esolangs> [[User:Gabryx64/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86885&oldid=86884 * Gabryx64 * (+6)
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14:01:16 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86887&oldid=86882 * TheJonyMyster * (-12)
14:02:58 <b_jonas> hmm. we could try to make a bait-and-switch joke about how 2020 is the longest year, not because of the pandemic, but because it has both 366 days and 53 weeks. that has last happened in 2004, and will happen in 2032 next.
14:03:58 <b_jonas> or perhaps we could make a doom prophecies about a new pandemic in 2032
14:06:16 <Noisytoot> Was there a pandemic in 2004?
14:07:34 <Taneb> Bird flu was 2004
14:08:12 <Taneb> Which was a pandemic scare rather than an actual pandemic
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18:01:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Braden * New user account
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18:04:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86888&oldid=86870 * Braden * (+206) Braden has joined the party
18:05:55 <esolangs> [[User:Braden]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86889 * Braden * (+77) Created page with "I'm Braden, creator of [https://gitlab.com/bradenbest/stacky Stacky/Stackyzi]"
18:07:17 <esolangs> [[User:Braden]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86890&oldid=86889 * Braden * (+147) Mention bfvm
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18:32:33 <riv> https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2805/scientists-id-three-causes-of-earths-spin-axis-drift/
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19:10:10 <Melvar> fizzie: I could’ve sworn I had some forth code that went like `begin <one half> <cond> while <other half> repeat` or similar, doing the branch check in the middle of the loop body so the first half of the loop body has do-while-like execution and the second half while-like. I can’t find said code now though.
19:10:35 <fizzie> That's a thing too, yes.
19:10:53 <fizzie> I omitted it because I couldn't really write the C equivalent.
19:11:56 <Melvar> Yeah that was more answering to the “mix the words up if you need something strange” part.
19:13:44 <fizzie> Yes, although arguably in that case that's specifically what those three words (well, except `begin`, it's more generic) have been designed to do. But I feel like I've seen Forth code that just uses one of the existing control flow words in a really unintuitive place, because it happens to have the right effect.
19:15:43 * Melvar nodnods.
19:23:16 <fizzie> Now that you mention it, it's actually a little confusing how `while` and `until` aren't just aliases with the condition inverted. Instead, `while repeat` is the counterpart of `until`. Or `0= until` would also do it, I guess.
19:32:26 <zzo38> This is the advantage of Forth; it is a kind of structures that can be useful in programming
20:46:29 <oren> imagine you have a function in the form (pseudocode): int muldiv(int x, y, z) = x * y / z is there any language in which you would expect to get the assembly output as something like mov eax, edi; mov ecx, edx; imul esi; idiv ecx; ret
20:47:02 <oren> that is, without a sign extend throwing away upper half of the multiplication result?
20:54:05 <b_jonas> so does `begin` push the PC to a control stack at runtime, or does it push the PC to a compile control stack and then some other control structure assembles the address from that compile control stack?
20:54:13 <oren> I tried gfortran, several C compilers, rust, and freebasic; all of them outputted some kind of sign-extent instruction
20:56:11 <b_jonas> oren: no, but if you write short instead of int for the parameter type then sure
20:56:27 <oren> why would that matter?
20:56:54 <oren> ooh right, those automatic conversions
20:56:56 <b_jonas> because the C language will coerce the shorts to ints before you multiply
20:57:25 <b_jonas> though of course that only extends on the now common platforms where shorts are 16 bit wide but ints are 32 bit wide
20:58:40 <oren> no, I still get a sign-extend
21:03:47 <oren> it converts to 32 bit, but then still sign-extends upper 32 bits of result even though they're guaranteed to already be
21:10:21 <fizzie> b_jonas: AIUI, it's the latter. As in: BEGIN pushes a backwards branch destination to the (control flow, though sometimes it's just the one) stack as part of its compilation semantics, and compiles into nothing; and likewise AGAIN pops a branch destination from there and compiles into an unconditional jump.
21:10:29 <fizzie> Similarly with `IF ... THEN`, except in that case IF compiles into a to-be forward jump and pushes something that represents an unresolved target, which THEN pops off and uses to set the destination address. None of these words have any valid interpretation semantics.
21:10:35 <fizzie> `forth begin again
21:10:36 <HackEso> ​ \ *OS command line*:-1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ >>>begin<<< again bye \ Backtrace: \ $40393B30 throw
21:12:43 <fizzie> Though there are special interpreter directive versions, [if], [then], [begin], [repeat] that can be used in the interpreter mode to conditionally compile things and so on.
21:18:02 <fizzie> `forth : ex 1 if ." true" else ." false" then cr ; ex see ex
21:18:04 <HackEso> true \ \ : ex \ 1 \ IF .\" true" \ ELSE .\" false" \ THEN \ cr ;
21:18:11 <fizzie> `forth : ex [ 1 ] [if] ." true" [else] ." false" [then] cr ; ex see ex
21:18:12 <HackEso> true \ \ : ex \ .\" true" cr ;
21:53:30 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86891&oldid=86887 * TheJonyMyster * (+3) format
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21:56:31 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86892&oldid=86891 * TheJonyMyster * (-67) /* Computational class */
21:57:41 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86893&oldid=86892 * TheJonyMyster * (+12)
21:59:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok. but I understand there's still a runtime control stack for subroutines
21:59:32 <b_jonas> are all these words case-insensitive? the mix of uppercase and lowercase is confusing
21:59:59 <b_jonas> but if they're case-insensitive that would explain it
22:00:30 <fizzie> Yes, there's a return stack. And yes, I think Forths are often case-insensitive, and Gforth at least is.
22:01:07 <fizzie> Apparently you can have special case-sensitive wordlists as well if you want.
22:02:15 <fizzie> https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Case-insensitivity.html "Two people have asked how to convert Gforth to be case-sensitive; while we think this is a bad idea, you can change all wordlists into tables like this: ' table-find forth-wordlist wordlist-map !
22:02:17 <fizzie> Note that you now have to type the predefined words in the same case that we defined them, which are varying. You may want to convert them to your favourite case before doing this operation (I won't explain how, because if you are even contemplating doing this, you'd better have enough knowledge of Forth systems to know this already)."
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23:53:05 <zzo38> What kind of lossless compression is suitable for short sound effects, rather than music or speech?
2021-08-04
01:15:36 <b_jonas> ok, so it's probably like basic, which is case sensitive, so on old computers people used all upper case, because that worked well with the old printers and monitors, but now people more and more prefer more readable mostly lower case, with some upper case initials
02:23:04 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86894&oldid=86893 * TheJonyMyster * (+251) formatting in comp class
02:42:12 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86895&oldid=86859 * KakkoiiChris * (+40) /* Operators */ Added evaluation order
02:46:40 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86896&oldid=86895 * KakkoiiChris * (-79) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added syntax highlighting
02:46:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86897&oldid=86896 * KakkoiiChris * (+316) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added line 1
02:47:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86898&oldid=86897 * KakkoiiChris * (+316) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added line 2
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03:21:49 <KakkoiiChris> I was told by the Discord that I should ask here for some help with the rate limit on my lang's wiki page?
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03:23:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Got a match?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86899 * TheJonyMyster * (+308) i may be stupid,
03:24:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86900&oldid=86899 * TheJonyMyster * (+4) fixed format
03:24:23 <Corbin> This would be a good place to ask. I don't recall who could help with that, though.
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04:30:06 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86901 * ZippyMagician * (+3259) Main page for cpy, info
04:30:08 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86902 * ZippyMagician * (+1379) Add converter (bf -> cpy)
04:31:07 <esolangs> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86903&oldid=86823 * ZippyMagician * (+9) Add cpy
04:31:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86904&oldid=86875 * ZippyMagician * (+10) Add cpy
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10:53:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:SussyLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86905 * Gabryx64 * (+188) Created page with "sussy imposter baka ..."
11:13:37 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86906&oldid=86883 * Gabryx64 * (+1618)
11:14:31 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86907&oldid=86906 * Gabryx64 * (+1)
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12:57:02 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86908&oldid=86907 * Gabryx64 * (+2360) /* SussyLang */
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13:35:23 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86909&oldid=86902 * ZippyMagician * (+401) Fix bug in converter
13:37:41 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86910&oldid=86909 * ZippyMagician * (+14) Add back button
13:38:35 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86911&oldid=86901 * ZippyMagician * (-54) Update page with fixes
13:39:43 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86912&oldid=86911 * ZippyMagician * (-8) /* About */
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13:42:48 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86913&oldid=86912 * ZippyMagician * (+129) Fix translation guide to account for bug
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14:08:45 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86916&oldid=86915 * ZippyMagician * (+696) Update to actually work
14:09:31 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86917&oldid=86914 * ZippyMagician * (+13) Add back link
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16:35:23 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: are you there? i can disable the size filter for a moment for you
16:37:31 <oerjan> otoh it _is_ a rather large page, so i might recommend splitting up
16:40:58 <oerjan> or i could do this...
16:42:50 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86918&oldid=86916 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix cat
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17:04:36 <nakilon> does anyone remember how did exactly that "collection of puzzles" with Loopy reach this channel a week-two ago?
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17:05:49 <nakilon> btw, velik is currently down due to the ongoing migration between hostings
17:10:21 <oerjan> which collection of puzzles
17:11:53 <nakilon> oerjan that's how that website with Loopy called
17:13:25 <oerjan> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-07.html#lB9 shows you were the first to mention loopy last month
17:14:12 <oerjan> and fizzie mentioned the collection a few messages above
17:14:29 <oerjan> but of course, we've discussed that many times over the years
17:14:53 <nakilon> I see
17:15:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i learned it first on #esoteric
17:15:19 <oerjan> but not at all sure when
17:15:25 <oerjan> *learned of it
17:16:49 <oerjan> in fact, i usually have one of those puzzles open on my laptop at any given time (currently Dominosa)
17:18:17 <oerjan> cycling alphabetically whenever i tire of the previous one or windows nags about rebooting, mostly
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17:25:05 <int-e> 2009-02-07 18:34:06: <oerjan> "Trojan horse Generic12.BJXH" it says \ 18:34:19: <oerjan> in [t]atham's puzzle connection?
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17:26:33 <nakilon> connection
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17:30:12 <oerjan> wait are you saying i might have mentioned it first?
17:32:38 <oerjan> hm that doesn't sound like a first mention
17:36:47 <oerjan> or rather, i'm speaking as if i've already played that collection for quite a while
17:40:20 <int-e> oerjan: the site had been mentioned earlier, but the first proper link to the puzzle collection as a whole was 2009-06-30 15:53:07: <Deewiant> Also "mines" at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ claims to do it
17:40:27 <int-e> (the web version, that is)
17:42:58 <b_jonas> how common is it that someone becomes king/queen in a hereditary monarchy (hereditary interpreted broadly) before they are born?
17:43:32 <b_jonas> eg. if their father was the king and they die before the child is born
17:45:31 <nakilon> and the award for the least expected question goes to...
17:48:20 <oerjan> i'm sure we've seen less expected ones. but not sure if they were also from b_jonas ;)
17:48:30 <b_jonas> sorry, I was just thinking about the primogeniture succession rule for the king of Great Britain and Ireland
17:49:22 <b_jonas> and there's the implication that if you don't want to turn a monarch to not a monarch while they're alive without them abdicating or forced to abdicate because of some scandal, then you need to accept that the unborn child of their recently dead uncle needs to be king
17:49:56 <b_jonas> this was probably even funnier with the old male primogeniture rule and without ultrasounds good enough to predict the gender of an unborn child
17:50:51 <oerjan> a real sidesplitter
17:51:27 <b_jonas> and the problem could come up for other hereditary monarchy positions with a different monarch
17:52:10 <b_jonas> so I expect the question must have come up at least a few times in history
17:52:35 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've read of examples, i just cannot remember them
17:52:59 <b_jonas> it could even cause religious problems, like if the king is required to be Christian, which requires a ceremony of baptism, which is generally done after birth
17:54:59 <b_jonas> not that that part is my problem, let the relevant church deal with figuring out the rules for that
17:56:53 <b_jonas> and you could say that with the decreasing political power that European kings/queens have now, who is the king/queen is also less likely to be my problem in the 21th century
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17:59:37 <oerjan> i looked at w:regency to see if it mentioned this case, but no
17:59:48 <oerjan> er *w:regent
18:02:01 <nakilon> imagine a King becoming a Queen
18:03:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: I don't think that would matter much, king and queen are just different english words for effectively the same meaning here
18:03:01 <nakilon> what a shock for the kingdom
18:06:03 <b_jonas> I mean as far as I understand, the U.K. had new coins cast with different portraits of Queen Elizabeth II just because she aged, so they could do the same with a king who changes to a queen
18:07:06 <b_jonas> and there's all sort of text that's quickly changed between "His Majesty" vs "Her Majesty", it's not like that change itself matters much
18:08:43 <b_jonas> like, if there's a queen, and he dies, and there's a new king, and you take an oath to serve the queen after the king died but before the news reached you, that wouldn't even invalidate the oath, because you're taking an oath to serve the position, including future rightful queens, not just the current king
18:18:42 * oerjan appreciates b_jonas's return to pronominal slipup there
18:19:30 <oerjan> i haven't noticed you doing that in a while
18:24:15 <int-e> hmm https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/tents.html is still annoying :P
18:25:31 <riv> I love tents
18:26:49 <riv> solved it
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18:28:08 <b_jonas> ah
18:28:14 <riv> ones I like: dominosa, light up, loopy, magnets, pearl, signpost, tents, tracks, undead, unruly, untangle
18:28:26 <int-e> riv: The annoying bit is that there's no way to mark trees
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18:29:32 <riv> there's some good puzzles not in simon tathams collection too: star battle, statue park
18:30:05 <int-e> palisade is cute too
18:30:31 <riv> ill try it and mosaic, i never noticed mosaic before
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18:31:07 <riv> https://krazydad.com/play/area51/ is also good, it's a mix of lots of puzzles
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18:32:36 <int-e> untangle... I used to play planarity *a lot*.
18:34:30 <b_jonas> I just uploaded https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bp-csatornafedel-magykir.jpg , an old manhole cover whose caption, cast in metal, refers to "royal telephone network". I think that label would be invariant regardless the gender of the king/queen, but that's basically impossible to test because the two monarchs of Ostrich-Hungry were definitely kings, and we don't have a six hundred year old
18:34:36 <b_jonas> telephone network
18:36:07 <int-e> Oh, the untangle implementation misses the "mark intersections" feature
18:37:02 <b_jonas> apparently the telephone network on Budapest started in 1881
18:39:23 <b_jonas> though, given that I photographed that on the street in 2013, it's most likely to be recent, probably from between the two world wars
18:39:43 <fizzie> "POST OFFICE TELEGRAPHS" is what a lot of the manhole covers hereabouts say.
18:40:00 <fizzie> Not sure when they're from.
18:41:02 <fizzie> https://assets.londonist.com/uploads/2015/01/i875/telegraph.jpg <- looking like that
18:41:24 <riv> I recognize that
18:41:31 <nakilon> something something "why manholes are circle?"
18:41:51 <fizzie> Yeah, I think all of these are rectangular though.
18:42:53 <nakilon> I guess the only time I saw rectangular manhole was in Odessa, on a very popular tourist site
18:43:59 <fizzie> It is a good feature of this current timeline that a lot of London's lavatorial history is related to the company established by Thomas Crapper.
18:46:35 <int-e> still easy... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ut.png
18:46:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
18:48:41 <b_jonas> here, only smaller manhole covers are circular, all the larger ones are rectangular, probably because the larger ones (not counting very old ones like this) are made of reinforced concrete with a metal frame, rather than all metal
18:48:48 <int-e> (the thing with marking intersections is that when there are many points, I tend to stash the solved part in a corner and it's easy to introduce an intersection by accident that is really hard to see)
18:48:51 <nakilon> oh wait, no, that wasn't even a rectangle, lol
18:49:13 <nakilon> https://goo.gl/maps/1Nzrf39GX9kwo6iy7
18:50:39 <b_jonas> and the largest manholes are covered by two rectangular covers, presumably to avoid a huge very heavy manhole cover, and circular would suck for that too
18:51:19 <b_jonas> nakilon: nice
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19:02:07 <KakkoiiChris> oerjan I'm here now, sorry. I was out with family for the moment.
19:05:35 <nakilon> riv did you try to solve the words thing further?
19:10:53 <riv> nakilon, I know what to do next (sort by word length, delete substrings)
19:10:57 <riv> what i didn't implement it
19:11:07 <riv> actually maybe it's not that simple
19:11:16 <riv> a shorter word might be better, if it's used many more times
19:11:29 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: i've temporarily disabled the filter now
19:11:41 <riv> conside strings with an equal number of ) and ( in them
19:11:58 <riv> consider
19:12:16 <riv> for example "()" and ")()("
19:12:31 <riv> does any language assign semantics to these?
19:13:28 <KakkoiiChris> oerjan Thank you, kindly~ I of course now realize why not many others bother with the syntax highlighting like I've done, but I was so close to finishing it that I didn't want to give up on it. I should have it done by the end of the day~
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19:15:47 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if there's MediaWiki extensions that allow for "manual" syntax highlighting using a syntax that's more compact and also doesn't involve hardcoding the colors necessarily.
19:16:15 <fizzie> There's definitely syntax highlighting extensions, but the ones I've come across are those where they support more... mainstream languages, and do it automatically.
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19:21:13 <KakkoiiChris> fizzie Is there a way to create a CSS sheet for your page? If that's the case, then I could keep the classes from Notepad++'s HTML output, and it would be a lot smaller.
19:22:31 <int-e> > reverse ")()("
19:22:33 <lambdabot> "()()"
19:22:56 <oerjan> > reverse "())(()"
19:22:57 <lambdabot> ")(())("
19:23:44 <oerjan> (just pointing out that it's not simply matched parens or reversed matched)
19:23:55 <nakilon> > reverse "( . )( . )"
19:23:55 <fizzie> I think probably not. There might be some security implications in allowing "untrusted" CSS that's shown to other users.
19:23:56 <lambdabot> ") . () . ("
19:24:08 <riv> ooh
19:24:51 <KakkoiiChris> True,,, oh well. At least I can keep on editing.
19:26:43 <oerjan> there might be a way to do it with templates, maybe?
19:27:02 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86919&oldid=86898 * KakkoiiChris * (+5870) /* Relative Range Access */ Added syntax highlighting
19:27:09 <fizzie> I imagine I could probably also stick in some "generic" syntax highlighting classes ("keyword", "number", whatnot) with semi-reasonable defaults into a global stylesheet file somewhere, which users could then customize in their user stylesheets if they like.
19:27:57 <esolangs> [[Aboba]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86920&oldid=86880 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
19:27:59 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86921&oldid=86919 * KakkoiiChris * (+934) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:28:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe if you want to make the slowest-to-render page ever. (Not that it's a concern with our wiki's amount of traffic, just saying.)
19:28:52 <esolangs> [[Aboba]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86922&oldid=86920 * PixelatedStarfish * (-9) /* External links */
19:29:06 <fizzie> "Render" there meaning the part MediaWiki does, not the part the client does.
19:29:20 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: ok you're past the limit now so i'll turn the filter back on and you still be ok as long as you don't shrink the page back below it
19:29:26 <nakilon> lol 🅰️🅱️🅾️🅱️🅰️
19:29:48 <oerjan> *you should still
19:31:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86923&oldid=86921 * KakkoiiChris * (+1487) /* Logical Narrowing (?x) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:32:00 <nakilon> dark color schemes suck if you ask me https://i.imgur.com/4RX4jY3.png
19:32:08 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86924&oldid=86923 * KakkoiiChris * (+1295) /* Unary Operators */ Added syntax highlighting
20:02:54 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86925&oldid=86924 * KakkoiiChris * (+19777) /* Binary Operators */ Added syntax highlighting
20:05:33 <KakkoiiChris> oerjan You mean not to remove any text, right?
20:05:52 <KakkoiiChris> Below what I had before, that is.
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20:18:19 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86926&oldid=86925 * KakkoiiChris * (+1013) /* Ternary Operator (x ? y : z) */ Added syntax highlighting
20:19:05 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: yeah
20:22:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86927&oldid=86926 * KakkoiiChris * (+14336) /* Design Patterns */ Added syntax highlighting
20:26:03 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> (just pointing out that it's not simply matched parens or reversed matched)" => but cyclically rotated matched parens, right?
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20:42:18 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86928&oldid=86927 * KakkoiiChris * (-1761) /* Design Patterns */ Fixed formatting
20:42:51 <riv> ah yes
20:42:56 <riv> there will always be a cyclic shift
20:43:04 <riv> because you can align the zero point
20:52:00 <oerjan> yeah
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21:35:54 <int-e> riv: the thing about untangled is that it's more a matter of patience than anything else... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ut500.png
21:36:30 <int-e> (it does produce funny patterns though, which probably differ a lot between players)
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21:38:54 <riv> woah
21:38:59 <riv> i dont think ive ever done one that complex
21:40:25 <fizzie> What's the settings for that?
21:41:05 <fizzie> Judging from the file name, 500 points, but it doesn't seem that much.
21:41:18 <int-e> it's 500 points
21:41:28 <int-e> > sqrt 500
21:41:29 <lambdabot> 22.360679774997898
21:41:41 <fizzie> Huh. I guess it's just hard to estimate.
21:44:35 <int-e> Well, I didn't count them. But 500 is what I told it to use.
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21:51:35 <fizzie> I think there was a standalone version of that game too. "gplanar"? No, "gplanarity".
21:52:29 <int-e> yep, gplanarity
21:52:42 <int-e> played that endlessly maybe a decade ago
21:53:23 <int-e> it had some cute twists, like some levels with non-planar graphs
21:54:21 <int-e> also some useful editing features, most notably a zoom feature which I mostly used to concentrate the initial points in the lower-left corner so I had room to operate
21:54:45 <int-e> but alos a block move feature that was occasionally handy for rearranging the solved part.
21:56:15 <fizzie> I wonder if it would be a plausible UI tweak if there was a mode that hides edges you haven't touched any endpoint of, so which maybe could allow you to do the solution in the middle of the circle.
21:57:17 <int-e> that might work
21:58:17 <int-e> I wonder whether gplanarity had something like that (untouched lines in gray?)
22:00:22 <fizzie> Hmm, I cant find any sort of settings dialog. As far as buttons go, it seems to have just a "mark intersections" and a general show/hide lines which completely hides all lines.
22:00:34 <fizzie> But dehighlighting untouched lines rings some sort of a bell.
22:02:24 <int-e> ah it highlights lines when you click a point... I guess that's what I'm confusing it with
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22:05:01 <fizzie> I didn't remember that gplanarity gives a score on time too.
22:05:12 <fizzie> Maybe it's changed, or maybe I just forgot.
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23:21:59 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86929&oldid=86736 * Spargle * (+184) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
23:23:02 <int-e> fizzie: there's also the original flash game, maybe that had a feature like this
23:23:28 <int-e> I don't recall
23:31:13 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86930 * PixelatedStarfish * (+541) Created page with "The ''Goblins Operation'' is an modified goto operation that enables subroutine like behaviors. The operation was created for [[Blood32]] and it is named after the hemoglobin..."
23:31:57 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86931&oldid=86930 * PixelatedStarfish * (+30)
23:33:59 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86932&oldid=86931 * PixelatedStarfish * (+601)
23:34:22 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86933&oldid=86932 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Goblins Operation Example in Blood32 */
23:37:31 <esolangs> [[Goblins Operation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86934 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35) Redirected page to [[The Goblins Operation]]
23:39:03 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86935&oldid=86933 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Goblins Operation Example in Blood32 */
23:39:48 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86936&oldid=86935 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Goblins Operation Example in Blood32 */
23:41:37 <esolangs> [[Goblins]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86937 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35) Redirected page to [[The Goblins Operation]]
23:43:44 <esolangs> [[Esoteric algorithm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86938&oldid=75103 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+0) /* Potential Use */ monogamous monotonous
23:43:54 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86939&oldid=86226 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* The Goblins Operation */
23:44:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86940&oldid=86939 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* The Goblins Operation */
23:44:55 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86941&oldid=86940 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Pointer operations */
23:46:36 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86942&oldid=86936 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+1) /* Goblins Operation Example in [[Blood32]] */ indicted indicated
23:57:42 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86943&oldid=86514 * CosmicMan08 * (+3631) added bf69 commands
23:58:19 <esolangs> [[Bf69]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86944 * CosmicMan08 * (+43) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]]
23:58:38 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+++++++++++++++++++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86945 * CosmicMan08 * (+43) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]]
23:59:09 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86946 * CosmicMan08 * (+43) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]]
2021-08-05
00:00:40 <int-e> uh...
00:01:13 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86947&oldid=86928 * KakkoiiChris * (-264) /* String Output */ Fixed formatting
00:02:38 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86948&oldid=86943 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+28) is self-modifying, add category
00:03:11 <fizzie> Uh.
00:04:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86949&oldid=86948 * CosmicMan08 * (+52)
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01:14:31 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86950&oldid=86947 * KakkoiiChris * (+12401) /* Statements */ Added syntax highlighting
01:35:01 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86951&oldid=86950 * KakkoiiChris * (+10) /* Values */ Fixed links
01:38:11 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86952&oldid=86951 * KakkoiiChris * (+59) /* Numbers */ Added Infinity and NaN
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02:55:51 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86953&oldid=86952 * KakkoiiChris * (+1547) /* System Arg (\<) */ Elaborated and added syntax highlighting
02:56:44 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86954&oldid=86953 * KakkoiiChris * (+679) /* System Call (\>) */ Added syntax highlighting
02:57:41 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86955&oldid=86954 * KakkoiiChris * (-7) /* Goto (_<) */ Fixed order
03:02:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86956&oldid=86955 * KakkoiiChris * (+361) /* Numbers */ Added dynamic literals
03:09:44 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86957&oldid=86956 * KakkoiiChris * (+66) /* Numbers */ Added Pi and E
03:16:41 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86958&oldid=86957 * KakkoiiChris * (-1) /* Numbers */ Changed wording
03:20:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86959&oldid=86958 * KakkoiiChris * (+28) /* V5 */ Changed wording
03:33:33 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86960&oldid=86959 * KakkoiiChris * (+2295) Added System Function section
03:38:17 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86961&oldid=86960 * KakkoiiChris * (+18) /* General Functions */ Added table
03:40:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86962&oldid=86961 * KakkoiiChris * (+27) /* System Call (\>) */ Added System Function section link
03:41:02 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86963&oldid=86962 * KakkoiiChris * (+27) /* System Arg (\<) */ Added System Function section link
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04:48:38 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86964&oldid=86963 * KakkoiiChris * (-69) /* Math Functions */ Finished table
04:53:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86965&oldid=86964 * KakkoiiChris * (+233) /* System Functions */ Elaborated on system functions
04:58:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * KakkoiiChris * uploaded "[[File:KakkoiiChris.png]]"
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05:38:38 <esolangs> [[User:KakkoiiChris]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86967 * KakkoiiChris * (+937) Started page
05:40:42 <esolangs> [[User:Thenewcomposer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86968 * KakkoiiChris * (+26) Redirect to KakkoiiChris
05:41:06 <esolangs> [[Stacky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86969 * Braden * (+2110) Apologies for rough formatting and the not-great article. Feel free to flesh it out as needed.
05:41:39 <esolangs> [[User:Thenewcomposer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86970&oldid=86968 * KakkoiiChris * (+5) Fixed link
05:44:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stacky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86971 * Braden * (+434) Created page with "I was nervous to create this page. I'm writing a reference implementation in my free time. It'll be a JIT and it'll include a compiler to convert stacky source code to the obn..."
05:46:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stacky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86972&oldid=86971 * Braden * (+177) /* Stackyzi */ new section
05:47:12 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86973&oldid=86965 * KakkoiiChris * (+53) /* Arrays */ Reworded sentences
05:47:53 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86974&oldid=86973 * KakkoiiChris * (+6) /* Strings */
05:49:32 <esolangs> [[Stacky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86975&oldid=86969 * Braden * (+1) fixed error in truth machine example (a correct implementation would crash upon trying to pop an empty stack)
05:52:59 <esolangs> [[Stacky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86976&oldid=86975 * Braden * (+1) third time's the charm
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06:06:26 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86977&oldid=86974 * KakkoiiChris * (+552) /* Single Access */ Added negative indices
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06:25:48 <esolangs> [[Todo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86978 * TheJonyMyster * (+1839) Created page with "'''Todo''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] where functions are called from a queue. Functions are defined and subsequently added to the queue, and can be called when o..."
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07:42:08 <nakilon> maybe this was the flash game https://www.kongregate.com/games/qrious/untangle but my browser does not play this flash anymore
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09:58:44 <nakilon> in Russian we call the raw photo slide "a negative" but when we mean the opposite color we say "inverted" color, not "negated"
09:58:48 <nakilon> is it the same in your languages?
10:00:05 <nakilon> while both words are foreign we have an own word "обратный" but we don't use it here at all AFAIK
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10:02:27 <nakilon> can't remember where I saw the .negate method instead of .invert that is more intuitive for me
10:02:32 <nakilon> API method
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10:30:48 <kspalaiologos> what kind of esolangs fame is Chris Pressey himself starring your eso project
10:31:49 <nakilon> he's starring every esolang
10:32:23 <nakilon> probably
10:33:17 <b_jonas> oh hi kspalaiologos, I haven't seen you in a while
10:33:27 <kspalaiologos> hello!
10:33:51 <kspalaiologos> nice to meet you again :)
10:34:16 <kspalaiologos> I've gone a long way since I tried to learn J from you
10:34:36 <b_jonas> you found our new home. we can't hide from you.
10:35:17 <kspalaiologos> haha, i guess I'll be haunting you from now ;)
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11:10:00 <esolangs> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86979&oldid=84881 * Palaiologos * (-2) update the URL
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12:05:52 <nakilon> I keep playing with telegram channels dump
12:06:09 <nakilon> is there are name for such diagram? https://i.imgur.com/nm93tjy.png
12:07:36 <nakilon> when I google "heatmap" none of them has a col width of 1 pixel
12:09:08 <nakilon> also no log axis
12:20:51 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86980&oldid=86894 * TheJonyMyster * (+6)
12:21:38 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86981&oldid=86978 * TheJonyMyster * (+23) authorship
12:31:30 <fizzie> I think it's a relative of the strip chart and the ridgeline plot, but not exactly either of those.
12:35:42 <fizzie> And also of the rug plot, which is a thing where you add a tick exactly like that near an axis to illustrate the marginal distribution in that direction.
12:38:16 <fizzie> Oh, there is a name for it: barcode chart.
12:39:36 <fizzie> At least according to https://www.darkhorseanalytics.com/blog/visualizing-distributions-3 -- it's just that except more than one of them.
12:53:54 <nakilon> yeah, "barcode" looks like that
12:54:13 <nakilon> but my one also has a lightness value
12:54:59 <nakilon> without logarithmic lightness it was looking like this https://i.imgur.com/8ZGsRYW.png
12:59:17 <fizzie> That's part of it, as described there. "-- usually with some transparency or a colour scale to deal with multiple points of the same value."
12:59:38 <fizzie> (I think that generalizes to "or values so close they can't be rendered as distinct lines.")
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13:15:28 <nakilon> oh, I often skip the text (
13:21:42 <esolangs> [[Siterip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86982&oldid=70258 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-31) Remove empty ref list
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17:58:46 <esolangs> [[Todo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86983&oldid=86981 * TheJonyMyster * (+21) needed a literal, sorry I wont post unfinished langs ever again. but tbf it is called todo
17:59:10 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86984&oldid=86983 * TheJonyMyster * (-2) /* Commands */
17:59:30 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86985&oldid=86984 * TheJonyMyster * (+3) /* Commands */
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18:09:52 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86986 * Dominicentek * (+8238) Created page with "Functionality is an esoteric programming language written by [[User:Dominicentek]] with the goal being having the most functionality as possible. == Instructions == {| class="..."
18:10:23 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86987&oldid=86986 * Dominicentek * (+18) Fixed missing table styling
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18:23:16 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86988&oldid=86987 * Dominicentek * (+177)
18:25:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86989&oldid=86904 * Dominicentek * (+20) /* F */
18:26:11 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86990&oldid=86988 * Dominicentek * (+18) Another fix for wiki table styling
18:27:49 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86991&oldid=86990 * Dominicentek * (+39) Yet another 2 fixes
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19:02:06 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86992 * RocketRace * (+6956) Part 0
19:02:59 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86993&oldid=86992 * RocketRace * (-45) Forgot to add
19:13:25 <shachaf> `smlist 524
19:13:28 <HackEso> smlist 524: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
19:14:04 <int-e> `? smlist
19:14:07 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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21:34:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86994&oldid=86989 * TheJonyMyster * (+11) added todo
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23:43:49 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86995&oldid=86985 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Cats
23:46:54 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86996&oldid=86918 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) Fix name, rm redundant pipe
2021-08-06
00:02:30 <zzo38> One idea I have is adding a format code into printf and scanf to indicate that this format string is used only to indicate the type and that the actual format string to use will be the next one (which might not use all of the data arguments, but it can know the type of arguments that are skipped, as well as other uses)
00:02:51 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86997&oldid=86995 * TheJonyMyster * (+12) added word to imply sequence
01:02:51 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86998&oldid=86977 * KakkoiiChris * (-90) /* Less (x < y) */ Fixed formatting
01:04:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86999&oldid=86998 * KakkoiiChris * (-12) /* Assign (x = y) */ Fixed formatting
01:05:39 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87000&oldid=86999 * KakkoiiChris * (-138) /* String Input */ Fixed colors
01:06:33 <zzo38> Is there TeX implemented in PostScript, so that it is possible for PostScript codes to interfere with TeX codes (rather than only executing PostScript codes after TeX is finished)?
02:20:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, you could probably *compile* TeX into postscript with a custom translator
02:24:03 <zzo38> Yes, but: [1] I don't know of any such translator. [2] It won't be as good as doing it properly. [3] It will not interact with PostScript codes very well unless it is modified to do so.
02:28:18 <b_jonas> sure, you'd have to write a translator
02:28:22 <b_jonas> what do you mean properly?
02:28:31 <b_jonas> the proper way to run TeX is to use its original code
02:28:45 <b_jonas> so if you want to implement it in postscript, you compile the original code rather than reimplement it
02:29:36 <b_jonas> you could do it like pdflatex in that you don't use the part that writes the DVI to a file, and just run graphics primitives immediately
02:29:43 <b_jonas> but the part that does the layout is worth to keep
02:29:50 <zzo38> Yes, of course, if you do it the other way then it won't be TeX, but it will be similar. But, if PostScript codes are to interfere with TeX codes then it won't be TeX, it will be almost-TeX, I suppose.
02:30:33 <zzo38> In order to implement text formatting properly, probably another node type might be helpful, so that it can work properly if split across lines and pages, too.
02:34:03 <zzo38> Of course you would run the graphics primitives directly, but my idea is to do that during the \shipout operation (which would render a box and then the PostScript showpage operator)
02:36:05 <zzo38> Since it is not quite TeX, this also means \immediate could be usable with boxes too, in case you do want to render it immediately (possibly due to wanting to implement the page layout in PostScript)
02:42:33 <zzo38> Also, PostScript has its own memory management, too.
03:32:18 <zzo38> An alternative possibility would be implementing the typesetting algorithms of TeX in PostScript; it will not be compatible, although for some purposes it can be used. The token input of TeX can then also be implemented, too.
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04:30:02 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87001&oldid=86997 * TheJonyMyster * (+18) year category
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04:58:06 <esolangs> [[Todo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87002&oldid=87001 * TheJonyMyster * (+301) truth machine
05:00:09 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87003&oldid=87002 * TheJonyMyster * (+112) /* Truth machine */
05:08:52 <esolangs> [[Todo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87004&oldid=87003 * TheJonyMyster * (+251) fib + code credit
05:34:57 <zzo38> Today, a few times I turned on TI-92 calculator it reset the contrast (although no files or settings were lost, other than the contrast setting). It doesn't reset the contrast every time
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08:58:02 <nakilon> lol I've CTCP sent a nickname to an offline IRC user named "version"
08:58:39 <nakilon> I just can't remember the syntax; I suppose if you are online under the "version" nickname you'll get a lot of these
08:59:13 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87005&oldid=86661 * Dtuser1337 * (+190) /* loadallfile() */
08:59:19 <nakilon> and it probably won't even be classified as "mocking the network services"
09:00:06 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87006&oldid=87005 * Dtuser1337 * (-1)
09:07:02 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87007&oldid=87006 * Dtuser1337 * (+144) /* Function Commands */
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09:26:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87008&oldid=71231 * Dtuser1337 * (+346) /* I've got a request for you */ new section
09:36:07 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87009&oldid=87007 * Dtuser1337 * (+13) /* File I/O Commands */
09:37:24 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87010&oldid=87009 * Dtuser1337 * (+36) /* File I/O Commands */
09:42:26 <nakilon> https://github.com/kspalaiologos/malbolge-lisp
09:43:07 <nakilon> I wonder why it's in 7z
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12:40:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Haltingfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87011 * Silver * (+565) actually, not sure this is right
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17:09:11 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87012&oldid=86768 * Tomhe * (+645) fj.py, wflip 1-op
17:12:26 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87013&oldid=87012 * Tomhe * (+1) /* How To Run? */
17:13:02 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87014&oldid=87013 * Tomhe * (-21) /* How To Run? */
17:32:34 <zzo38> The syntax to send the CTCP is the same as other messages, it is PRIVMSG and then the target nick name and then the colon and data, but the data uses the CTRL+A before and after
17:36:26 <esolangs> [[Epicbebra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87015 * Kemuri * (+11) Created page with "Coming soon"
18:21:53 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87016&oldid=86929 * Spargle * (+116) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
18:22:17 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87017&oldid=87016 * Spargle * (+1) /* note: when printing a string like this: **!B !L !A !H**, you must put a space in between each character. */
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20:43:38 <oerjan> sometimes those freefall robots are a little too creative for their own good
20:52:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87018&oldid=86153 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5) /* Esolangs */
20:57:38 <int-e> the danger of indefinite pronouns
20:58:18 <int-e> why isn't it "indefinitive"...
20:59:06 <int-e> confused by pronouns... indefinitely
21:00:05 <int-e> (I'm *actually* confused, too... "it" is a definite pronoun)
21:14:58 * oerjan wonders if int-e is responding to him but can see no pronoun ambiguity in what he wrote
21:16:24 <oerjan> . o O ( the danger of indefinite context )
21:18:20 <int-e> oerjan: the FF comic has a subject confusion
21:18:33 <int-e> or object confusion, whatever
21:49:43 <oerjan> oh duh
21:50:03 <oerjan> . o O ( forget my own head next )
21:50:48 * oerjan was archive binging girl genius a bit to see if that lady in today's last panel was in the museum they'd visited, but no.
21:52:02 <oerjan> i suppose it would be easier with colors
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21:54:07 <oerjan> wait is it a lady
21:55:22 <int-e> Oh, didn't read that because I got distracted by the lack of colors
21:55:40 <int-e> (causing me to check back on last Friday's comic which is still uncolored)
21:56:43 <oerjan> ah
21:57:12 <oerjan> well it doesn't resemble lord moonbark, so probably a lady, but have we seen her before?
21:58:02 <int-e> doesn't she resemble Agatha...
21:59:01 <int-e> Colors (like hair color) would help :P And we are in a time traveling universe.
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22:01:04 <oerjan> she does. but i don't think agatha was in such a position before they got her mother removed.
22:01:39 <int-e> Then, how about Lucrecia herself
22:02:10 <oerjan> i guess we'll see.
22:02:22 <int-e> That's my usual attitude to GG these days.
22:03:01 <oerjan> i have a hunch the mirrors aren't how the time travel is done, though. (remember van rijn'r prisoner who disappeared with a poof?)
22:03:11 <int-e> I would have to archive binge regularly to keep track of the myriad of plot lines.
22:03:26 <oerjan> (and was presumably lucrezia)
22:04:58 <int-e> We've seen them in action *once* and a couple of flashbacks... but yeah, it was consistent with pure teleportation.
22:05:13 <int-e> (As far as I recall)
22:06:18 <oerjan> well there are also the window apparitions agatha and dupree saw, but that was still "mirror" on only one end
22:07:20 <int-e> But those *were* traveling in time?
22:07:35 <oerjan> yes
22:07:57 <oerjan> at least the ones with future agatha etc. on the other side
22:08:31 <int-e> I guess technically they wouldn't have to be... they could be time traveling by other means and then use a mirror-like device to scan around :P
22:08:48 <int-e> But... that seems overly complicated even by GG standards.
22:14:16 <oerjan> back to "we'll see", then.
22:26:23 <b_jonas> maybe smoke is involved too, not just mirrors
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23:42:34 <esolangs> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87019&oldid=80628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Unpipe, cat
23:53:06 <esolangs> [[LCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87020&oldid=86689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Cats
23:53:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87021&oldid=86994 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* L */ LCode
2021-08-07
03:20:10 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87022&oldid=73615 * Razetime * (+63)
03:21:58 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87023&oldid=87022 * Razetime * (+11)
03:23:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87024&oldid=87023 * Razetime * (-6)
03:25:10 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87025&oldid=87024 * Razetime * (-10)
03:25:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87026&oldid=87025 * Razetime * (+9)
03:26:12 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87027&oldid=87026 * Razetime * (+10)
03:26:45 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87028&oldid=87027 * Razetime * (+2)
03:27:10 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87029&oldid=87028 * Razetime * (+0)
03:28:07 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87030&oldid=87029 * Razetime * (+7)
03:28:30 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87031&oldid=87000 * Razetime * (-45)
04:28:26 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87032&oldid=87031 * KakkoiiChris * (-4) /* Characters */ Fixed typo
04:32:48 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87033&oldid=87032 * KakkoiiChris * (+18) /* REPL */ Fixed formatting
06:02:37 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87034&oldid=87010 * Ais523 * (+400) this is TC
06:05:16 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87035&oldid=86320 * Xorol * (+829)
06:05:36 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87036&oldid=87035 * Xorol * (+3)
06:12:29 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87037&oldid=87030 * Ais523 * (-2) remove a stray paragraph break it's putting extra whitespace at the start of articles that use infoboxes, making them look badly styled
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13:36:00 <esolangs> [[MCBlocks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87038&oldid=86688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* See also */ Cat
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14:07:25 <esolangs> [[SemicolonHash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87039&oldid=86600 * Xorol * (+208) Added a python implementation
14:59:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PandaQwanda * New user account
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16:30:49 <zzo38> There is a multicodec number for murmur3-128, but the 128-bit version 3 MurmurHash depends on the computer type, and the multicodec specification does not (as far as I know) specify the computer type. This would mean that code 0x22 is worthless for use in files, URIs, etc; it still might be meaningful to pass as the argument to identify the hash type in a library to compute the hashes, for in memory use only.
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17:26:35 <fizzie> Did you know that "deer" rhymes with "mirror"? I didn't.
18:37:09 <int-e> do cares have stirring wills?
18:47:09 <nakilon> one of my favourite subs: https://www.reddit.com/r/holdmydeer/
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20:13:19 <riv> so
20:13:31 <riv> conlang critic is doing a pokerap in toki pona
20:20:23 <myname> nice
20:33:45 <Melvar> oh no
20:53:48 <hendursaga> riv: pokerap?
20:53:59 <hendursaga> I saw there was a video review some time ago for Toki Pona
22:24:41 <shachaf> `smlist 525
22:24:44 <HackEso> smlist 525: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
22:30:07 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87040 * TeamLightning * (+414) Created page with "==Overview== The PL2 vCPU is a currently in-progress esoteric C++ virtual CPU made by [[User:TeamLightning|TeamLightning]] as a lower-level successor to [[PainLang]]. As of th..."
22:33:37 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87041&oldid=83611 * TeamLightning * (+71)
22:35:15 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87042&oldid=87041 * TeamLightning * (+1)
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22:38:37 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87043&oldid=83694 * TeamLightning * (+11) Updated /*Computational class*/ to reflect changeable tape length
22:46:37 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87044&oldid=87040 * TeamLightning * (+82) Added categories
22:47:02 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87045&oldid=87044 * TeamLightning * (-1) one too many colons
22:51:08 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87046&oldid=87045 * TeamLightning * (-4) /* Implementations */ update to change "I know of" to "known"
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23:25:31 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87047&oldid=87046 * Ais523 * (-14) per policy, make sure that the User: prefix on links to userspace is visible
2021-08-08
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03:11:01 <esolangs> [[Heck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87048 * PixelatedStarfish * (+192) Created page with "'''Heck''' is a programing language designed such that source code is expressible as a hexadecimal number. It was created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] in 2021. The interprete..."
03:14:37 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87049&oldid=87048 * PixelatedStarfish * (+127)
03:14:52 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87050&oldid=87049 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2)
03:15:51 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87051&oldid=87050 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
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03:28:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87052&oldid=87051 * PixelatedStarfish * (+840)
03:28:44 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87053&oldid=87052 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Operations in Heck */
03:29:19 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87054&oldid=87053 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
03:35:34 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87055&oldid=87054 * PixelatedStarfish * (+263)
03:36:41 * nakilon thinks about giving up with the idea to make a RASEL IDE with GUI libraries
03:37:08 <nakilon> I mean the GUI libraries that use the common OS primitives
03:37:22 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87056&oldid=87055 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* Grammar */
03:37:44 <nakilon> instead I'll probably rather make it in more stupid way -- using ruby2d, working with primitives, like Rectangle, key press events and stuff
03:38:32 <nakilon> no text inputs and dialogs though
03:39:43 <nakilon> so you'll run the program immediately specifying a single file you edit
03:40:05 <nakilon> something like .rasela extension meaning "annotated rasel"
03:43:37 <nakilon> and bin/rasel-convert to convert between them
03:45:28 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87057&oldid=87056 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63)
03:48:19 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87058&oldid=87057 * PixelatedStarfish * (+24) /* Hello World */
03:51:54 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87059&oldid=87058 * PixelatedStarfish * (+156)
03:52:00 <nakilon> oooooor
03:52:29 <nakilon> I could make it in JS/CSS http://localhost
03:52:44 <nakilon> I suck in CSS though
03:52:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87060&oldid=87059 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
03:58:18 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87061&oldid=87018 * PixelatedStarfish * (+98) /* Esolangs */
03:59:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87062&oldid=87061 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* Esolangs */
04:03:14 <nakilon> 20:32:35 <zzo38> The syntax to send the CTCP is the same as other messages
04:03:46 <nakilon> maybe, but in the IRC client I'm not writing raw messages, I'm using the shortcuts provided
04:04:07 <nakilon> such as /nickserv info <nickname> -- it's not /nickserv <nickname> info
04:04:39 <nakilon> and so /ctcp version <nickname> is intuitive but invalid
04:06:59 <nakilon> *wrong
04:12:16 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87063&oldid=87004 * TheJonyMyster * (+13) shh
04:12:34 <myname> well, /nickserv is not an irc command.
04:12:40 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87064&oldid=87063 * TheJonyMyster * (-2) shhh
04:14:41 <nakilon> neither is ctcp
04:17:39 <zzo38> NICKSERV (which can be abbreviated as NS) is a common extension, even though it is not a standard IRC command
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04:51:36 <myname> but /nickserv is just an abbreviation for /msg nickserv and does follow the format /command <user> message
05:03:27 <myname> you could just as well make /info as an alias for /msg nickserv info
05:05:24 <nakilon> /ctcp is just an abbreviation too
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07:45:28 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1FXQMmXYoA
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13:05:49 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87065&oldid=87060 * PixelatedStarfish * (+156)
13:10:32 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87066&oldid=87065 * PixelatedStarfish * (+141)
13:11:47 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87067&oldid=87066 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Hello World */
13:12:05 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87068&oldid=87067 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Hello World */
13:17:41 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87069&oldid=87068 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
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13:32:10 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87070&oldid=87069 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22)
13:35:03 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87071&oldid=87070 * PixelatedStarfish * (+119)
13:35:20 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87072&oldid=87071 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
13:36:51 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87073&oldid=87072 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
13:37:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87074&oldid=87073 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* Syntax and Grammar in EBNF */
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15:05:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87075&oldid=87033 * KakkoiiChris * (+124) /* Numbers */ Added the random and size dynamic literals
15:09:20 <b_jonas> myname: freenode has NICKSERV as a command alias which sends privmsg to NickServ. this has the advantage that if you typo NickServ's name, you won't send your nickserv password to someone phishing for them
15:09:41 <b_jonas> this is not a problem if you're using a client-side alias instead of course
15:20:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87076&oldid=87062 * PixelatedStarfish * (-42) /* Esolangs */
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15:24:17 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87077&oldid=87074 * PixelatedStarfish * (+191) /* Program Examples */
15:25:14 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87078&oldid=87077 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
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16:56:32 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87079&oldid=65176 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+1) misspelled hadn't
17:07:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Daggy1234 * New user account
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17:08:30 <daggy1234> hello
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17:20:45 <daggy1234[m]> hi
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19:18:53 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87080&oldid=86748 * Dominicentek * (+32)
19:44:23 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87081&oldid=86991 * Dominicentek * (+2) Fixed typo
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21:26:56 <int-e> Oh the ꙮ got a mention in xkcd this week.
21:27:46 <int-e> `' ꙮ
21:27:49 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
21:40:15 <oerjan> hm somehow i've missed 2 xkcds
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21:42:06 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I mentioned that
21:42:33 <b_jonas> int-e: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-08.html#lBh
21:47:57 <shachaf> Truly my greatest work.
21:59:26 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87082&oldid=87043 * TeamLightning * (-14) /* Overview */ changed link text to include User: on userspace link
22:09:58 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87083&oldid=87047 * TeamLightning * (+25) changed implementations to state that the only known implementation also covers the PL2 assembler
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22:25:22 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87084&oldid=87083 * TeamLightning * (+719) Added (machine code) Hello World example, changed Overview to state that PL2 is extensible
22:26:51 <teaml> ill go ahead and apologize in advance for the painful oneliner above edit added, im working on the assembler and will replace that example once the PL2 assembly works
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23:04:11 <keegan> int-e: oh?
23:04:36 <keegan> oh, alt text to #2497
23:04:40 <keegan> fine
23:04:46 <keegan> i liked multiocular o before it was cool
23:05:10 <nakilon> 10:45:28 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1FXQMmXYoA - awesome
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2021-08-09
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00:22:04 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87085&oldid=87075 * KakkoiiChris * (+389) /* Binary Operators */ Added mod operator section
00:24:46 <nakilon> https://i.redd.it/46fs3yad25g71.jpg
00:25:06 <b_jonas> I think I disliked multiocular o before it was cool
00:37:34 <keegan> wow
00:37:39 <keegan> that's even cooler than liking it before it was cool
00:40:26 <b_jonas> but I think it's not a specific hate for multiocular o, it's just a general hate for when people substitute the incorrect letter just because it's cool, including using metal umlauts or fake cyrillic
00:40:38 <b_jonas> s/ fake / faux /
00:44:52 <fizzie> How about when people just drop diacritical marks assuming they can't be that important?
00:45:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't mind that too much except in a few cases where there is an ambiguity
00:46:00 <b_jonas> Hungarian is great for this by the way
00:46:47 <b_jonas> like because of the vowel harmony, you can sometimes recover the distinction between o and ö from a suffix
00:47:37 <b_jonas> and you can usually guess between a and á and between e and é, or the distinction doesn't matter, though there are a few specific cases where they do matter and cause an ambiguity and you should keep the accent if the context is confusing
00:48:06 <b_jonas> I participate in quite some online chat in Hungarian where a lot of users (including me) drop the accents
00:48:07 <fizzie> I remember trying to find the most semantically disastrous pairing of words in Finnish distinguished only by a/ä or o/ö differences, but I don't think I came up with any particularly great examples. There's a lot of word pairs with entirely different meanings, but mostly they're just things where substituting the other word in any plausible sense just makes it sound like nonsense.
00:48:50 <fizzie> Although välittää 'to care' and valittaa 'to complain' maybe has some potential.
00:49:02 <fizzie> Maybe in a relationship setting.
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00:49:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: an example I find quite humorous is a certain ad that only shows a domain name "boresmez.hu", which could stand for either "bor és méz" or "bőr és mez". but you can't get this sort of thing if there's more context.
00:49:30 <keegan> https://gizmodo.com/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-m-382026
00:50:14 <b_jonas> the majority of what actually cause problems in practice are ambiguities in noun suffixes, though there are also a few where the ambiguity is in the word root
00:52:05 <fizzie> keegan: Oh, that reminds me of the one that actually does regularly come up in IRC conversations, namely näin ("I saw") vs. nain (colloquialism for "I fucked"), especially when you're trying to say you saw someone you knew somewhere.
00:59:56 <keegan> ha
00:59:59 <keegan> that could be awkward, yes
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01:00:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, but there are so many words that are slang for sex that they always cause ambiguities. one I particularly hate is "make out" which can mean to percieve
01:00:45 <b_jonas> usually it's transitive when it means perceive and intransitive when it's about sex, but not always
01:09:15 <keegan> heh
01:09:50 <keegan> making out doesn't strictly mean sex, at least in american english
01:10:55 <b_jonas> sure
01:11:06 <keegan> but it is conceptually adjacent
01:11:34 <b_jonas> I think there were a few other English ambiguities similar to this, but I can't recall them right now
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05:15:13 <Melvar> I have written a binding to sendmsg(2)/recvmsg(2) in Haskell and found that the tests I then wrote did pass, so passing file descriptors over a unix socket with my binding works.
05:15:22 <Melvar> However, I then discoverd something *very annoying*.
05:16:59 <Melvar> If a stream socket is used, and one side sends a chunk with some fds, then if the other side receives this section of the message as two chunks, the fds will be attached to the *first* of them.
05:18:13 <Melvar> This is annoying because one might want to send a logical message as one chunk with fds, but have the message include a header that specifies how many fds should be expected (since the receiver must allocate memory to receive them in).
05:19:20 <Melvar> So this is not possible, since the receiver cannot receive the header before receiving the fds.
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05:34:02 <zzo38> Then you should have to expect a reply, I suppose
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05:46:33 <Melvar> Since this is because I want to play around with the wayland protocol, I’m looking what they actually do in their own C code, and, well, they buffer outbound messages so basically you can’t know in advance where in the stream the fds are attached at all. You just have to always expect up to 28 (that’s a #define in their code) and maintain a queue of them alongside reading messages from the
05:46:35 <Melvar> socket.
05:48:15 <shachaf> Wait, the Wayland protocol sends file descriptors over a stream socket?
05:48:27 <Melvar> Yes.
05:49:17 <shachaf> Well, I guess the best thing to be said in favor of the Wayland protocol is that you're pretty much not allowed to implement it yourself anyway.
05:49:28 <shachaf> So it doesn't matter what nonsense they do.
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06:16:25 <Melvar> One of the things they’re used for is to avoid sending bulk data in-band. I think if you copy-paste something, the actual data never passes through the server, one client just sends an fd which the server then sends to another client who can then read the clipboard content from it.
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07:15:43 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87086&oldid=84499 * Zzo38 * (+616)
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10:31:07 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87087&oldid=80413 * WallGraffiti * (+0)
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12:55:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Markverb1 * New user account
13:00:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87088&oldid=86888 * Markverb1 * (+275) added my name to here
13:09:26 <esolangs> [[User:Markverb1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87089 * Markverb1 * (+551) Created page with "<big><center><b><span class="made with colorize_fun"><span style="color:#6500ff;">m</span><span style="color:#5f00fe;">a</span><span style="color:#5900fe;">r</span><span style..."
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15:03:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87090&oldid=86340 * Martsadas * (-130)
15:06:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87091&oldid=87090 * Martsadas * (+23713)
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16:40:01 <river> hello esotericians
16:40:30 <nakilon> why?... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%80%B1
16:40:53 <river> Woah!!!!
16:40:59 <river> thats so cool thanks for sharing
16:41:15 <nakilon> use it now as a variable identifier
16:41:18 <nakilon> everywhere
16:44:13 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/Unicode/comments/5qa7e7/widestlongest_unicode_characters_list/
16:45:22 <nakilon> ̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ
16:46:29 <nakilon> https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+130B8#:~:text=Unicode%20Character%20%E2%80%9C%F0%93%82%B8%E2%80%9D%20(U,Egyptian%20Hieroglyph%20D052
16:47:06 <nakilon> omg that's all the alphabet I need 𓂸
16:47:31 <river> 𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸
16:47:36 <river> haha
16:47:45 <river> i love unicode
16:47:56 <river> they're adding pregnant men emojis now
16:48:11 <river> https://emojipedia.org/unicode-14.0/
16:48:20 <river> every possible permutation and combination of emojis needs to be added
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16:51:50 <myname> my favourite unicode symbol is "invisible plus"
16:52:04 <river> ,u invisible plus
16:52:13 <river> there it is
16:52:36 <river> invisible times separator and plus
16:53:07 <river> not to be confused with zero width joiner
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17:08:47 <nakilon> 20:08:38 *** 𓂸: Erroneous Nickname
17:08:49 <nakilon> damn
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17:16:31 <nakilon> someone really should declare a unicode version without useless stuff
17:17:03 <nakilon> there is no need of storing images of pregnant men and shumere symbols on all my devices, I just don't want them
17:18:17 <fizzie> I don't know if you necessarily need a different Unicode version for that, you just need a font with less coverage.
17:18:43 <nakilon> maybe
17:18:54 <fizzie> `' may you live
17:18:55 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
17:20:43 <Corbin> That's pretty nifty. It renews the hope of typesetting maths with Unicode alone.
17:22:34 <nakilon> I'm ok with ability to use the same application and font to be able to write text to each other using native alphabets of all existing languages on the earth
17:23:20 <nakilon> but pregnant men isn't a language, it's just a "random" image that I might not want to be inserted in my screen in random chats
17:25:38 <nakilon> I would limit color usage at all
17:26:18 <nakilon> to only maybe country flags and as a modifier to usual symbols to make is possible to type a red circle, green arrow, etc.
17:26:55 <Corbin> What's a "green arrow"? Doesn't sound like a language, just some random image~
17:27:19 <nakilon> ok, remove colors then
17:27:31 <nakilon> apply styles in other ways
17:29:33 <Corbin> Or maybe Unicode's bigger than your individual needs and desires.
17:30:09 <nakilon> it's them who are pushing their personal needs and desires onto my screen
17:30:44 <nakilon> pushing their things into a standard
17:31:24 <nakilon> forcing my software download the pictures I don't want with every update
17:32:09 <keegan> waah waah
17:32:23 <keegan> who gives a shit
17:32:55 <keegan> aren't there bigger problems in the world
17:33:22 <keegan> are you also upset about all the flags of countries you don't like and all the symbols of religions you don't adhere to
17:33:23 <Corbin> That's a fallacy. No amount of improvement to Unicode will magically put food onto peoples' plates, for example.
17:33:29 <keegan> why shouldn't unicode be for you and only you
17:33:56 <Corbin> But yeah, basically, Unicode is an international diplomatic project too, not just an engineering project.
17:34:27 <nakilon> where did I say I'm "upset about the flags of countries I don't like"?
17:34:43 <keegan> you sound like the people who get angry because starbucks didn't write "merry christmas" on their coffee cup
17:34:44 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87092 * Martsadas * (+1399) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=:)}} <br> <nowiki>:)</nowiki> is an esolang that only uses smileys<br> <br> Valid tokens <nowiki>:) :P :] :> :D :O</nowiki><br> <br> Valid instructions:<br>..."
17:35:10 <nakilon> don't bring the politics in here
17:35:19 <keegan> you already did
17:35:27 <nakilon> what?
17:36:56 <Corbin> The position that there is "useless stuff" in Unicode is political.
17:37:05 <nakilon> woah
17:37:58 <Corbin> Seriously! fizzie had an excellent summary of why in their first reply: You can customize your own display of Unicode in any way that you want, assuming you control your computer. You can choose whichever fonts you like, and you can configure your renderer to avoid wasting energy decoding "useless" code points.
17:38:36 <Corbin> Going beyond that, altering the shared standard itself, is quite political, even ignoring the geopolitics and diplomacy: You're trying to change policies which affect many people.
17:38:41 <nakilon> that's what the community projects are for
17:38:59 <nakilon> reject bad standards, adopting better standards
17:39:41 <nakilon> they are changing the policies that are affecting me
17:39:47 <nakilon> and all the people
17:40:22 <nakilon> when my grandma bought a smartphone she didn't accept the policy of getting egyptian dickpics in SMS
17:41:31 <nakilon> lots of codepages were invented in lots of countries for their local needs and that's what unicode was supposed to solve by uniting the alphabets and the most basic symbols
17:41:34 <nakilon> but it went shit
17:42:00 <Corbin> Ambiguous "they" fallacy. The "they" who produce smartphone fonts (Apple, Google) are not the Unicode Consortium.
17:42:31 <nakilon> I didn't say apple and google did that
17:43:04 <nakilon> but they would be able to switch or provide an option to switch to a new standard without shit
17:44:49 <nakilon> 20:34:27 <nakilon> where did I say I'm "upset about the flags of countries I don't like"?
17:44:58 <nakilon> the question is still not answered
17:44:58 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87093&oldid=87078 * PixelatedStarfish * (+62)
17:45:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Hing.png]]"
17:46:49 <keegan> it was a question not a statement
17:47:32 <nakilon> okay
17:49:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Hing.png]]"
17:50:47 <nakilon> those who want more symbols can just "customize their own display of Unicode"
17:51:05 <nakilon> not mine
17:52:06 <b_jonas> the country flags in Unicode are seriously messed up, because the individual flags are not encoded directly, but through their ISO-3166-1 codes, and those codes can be reassigned to entirely unrelated countries, which means that if you encode a flag in unicode, it can be replaced by an entirely different flag later. The whole thing is so new that only like two codes got reassigned so far, and those were
17:52:12 <b_jonas> probably before the flags got encoded in unicode this way, but this is the kind of short-sited arrangement by people who don't care what happens after they leave their current job, because they won't be accountable.
17:52:43 <b_jonas> (Same as the people who ask for abolishing leap seconds, because it would make their job right now easier, and who cares what happens a hundred years from now. I hate those people.)
17:53:23 <b_jonas> And it looks like not two but three ISO-3166-1 country codes got reassigned so far.
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17:54:48 <b_jonas> The whole thing goes against the general idea that unicode code points should have a permanent meaning that isn't changed in the future. Was probably invented by Americans who don't realize how often countries change.
17:55:11 <b_jonas> Really trying to assign two-letter codes to countries was a disastrously stupid idea in first place.
17:55:15 <Corbin> Yeah, that's such a bogus situation. Somebody thought that they were being clever, but really they should have given an entire block over for country flags and left the top half unused for expansion.
17:56:33 <int-e> . o O ( What happens if we ever get more than 676 countries? Maybe at that point we'd be too busy fighting to worry about country codes)
17:56:42 <b_jonas> That's only an inventory for 676 codes, for a changing pool of about 200 countries.
17:57:10 <Melvar> Assuming you’re talking about flag emoji … technically the codepoints have fixed meaning: they are simply references to a separate standard (the one which assigns the two-letter codes).
17:57:32 <int-e> twist: 677 countries fighting over who doesn't get a two letter country code.
17:57:36 <nakilon> how often do you use unicode flags anyway? I see them in games and on websites, and browsers are perfectly fine with inserting small gif/png pictures for them, and even if you browser is textual it's fine to write the language as a text
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17:58:05 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it's only at 678 countries. at 677 countries, one of them is Taiwan and they can't get one anyway.
17:58:39 <nakilon> this is political
17:58:40 <int-e> b_jonas: too real
17:58:48 <b_jonas> though in practice there are quite some of those codes reserved for things that aren't countries, or aren't countries anymore, but were in too recent past and can't be reassigned yet
17:59:07 <b_jonas> the stupidest part is that they also delete and reassign the corresonding top-level domain names
17:59:48 <b_jonas> I'm not talking about the ones that are reassigned, because nobody really used the west sahara TLD, but about the Yugoslavia ones that were in some use but then got deleted
17:59:57 <nakilon> I was falsely muted on this channel when people brought politics in and I wasn't doing that
17:59:57 <b_jonas> it's the ultimate way to break links
18:00:30 <orichalcumcosmon> b_jonas: there is a taiwan flag emoji tho? https://emojipedia.org/flag-taiwan/
18:01:14 <nakilon> or will you finally admit you muted me just because I'm Russian?
18:01:40 <nakilon> I won't be muted if I was American and just quoting the history of Indians
18:04:31 <nakilon> you -- users of this channel other than me -- were political; you were saying that this country is bad, this one is good, etc. -- I didn't say that, those were your words, your hate; and then you said a blatant lie that those were my words
18:05:21 <nakilon> and then muted me for a chat message a one page above YOUR hate messages, where I just quoted a historical fact
18:08:32 <Corbin> Just because you can't recognize when you pick political topics, does not mean that the topics weren't political.
18:09:51 <nakilon> sure, Yugoslavia and Taiwan sin't political, Russia is
18:10:55 <nakilon> you can't recognize when you apply double standards
18:11:09 <river> whats the deal with taiwan?
18:11:41 <river> nakilon: was this today you got muted?
18:11:52 <nakilon> not today
18:11:56 <river> ok
18:12:40 <nakilon> but I never had an apology for the repetitive hate towards me by a small subset of local users
18:13:27 <river> i dont know what happened
18:13:39 <river> but my advice is forget about it
18:13:43 <river> it probably doesn't matter
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18:15:13 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87096&oldid=87092 * Martsadas * (+905)
18:17:22 <river> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan this is annoying
18:17:28 <river> they just should sort it out
18:17:33 <river> should just*
18:18:02 <fizzie> I agree, they should just sort out all problems, then we wouldn't have any problems.
18:18:09 <river> +1
18:18:21 <fizzie> The first rule of tautology club and all that.
18:18:25 <nakilon> I don't have a problem with them
18:18:33 <nakilon> they are thousands of kilometers away
18:20:38 <nakilon> I know a girl who studies a lot and learns Chinese to move to China
18:21:37 <nakilon> I mean mandarine or whatever it is, I have no clue
18:23:15 <b_jonas> river: nah, we're probably happier while nothing is "sorted out", because that's a euphemism for war
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18:46:12 <keegan> what would the country code for independent California be? .ca is already taken
18:52:47 <nakilon> Georgia also already exists
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18:59:25 <b_jonas> keegan: us-CA
19:01:10 <keegan> that's not a 2 letter country code
19:01:49 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87097&oldid=87096 * Martsadas * (+4380)
19:02:25 <keegan> cf is taken too
19:02:37 <keegan> by the Central African Republic
19:03:40 <keegan> in fact C followed by any of ALIFORN are all taken
19:04:16 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87098&oldid=87097 * Martsadas * (+50)
19:04:43 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87099&oldid=86766 * Martsadas * (+30)
19:05:07 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87100&oldid=87099 * Martsadas * (+0)
19:05:21 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87101&oldid=87100 * Martsadas * (+4)
19:06:34 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87102&oldid=87098 * Martsadas * (+0)
19:17:08 <b_jonas> yes, because there are only 676 two-letter codes and some letters are rare
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19:17:57 <orichalcumcosmon> there’s 17576 3-letter codes
19:18:05 <orichalcumcosmon> maybe one of those would fit
19:18:31 <orichalcumcosmon> or was that language codes
19:35:32 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87103&oldid=87081 * Dominicentek * (-1)
19:43:52 <int-e> nakilon: Well, I'm sorry that you feel wronged.
19:44:57 <int-e> (It's hard to never be wrong.)
19:47:43 <river> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmfdeWd0RMk
19:47:46 <river> i linked this before
19:47:52 <river> but its good so i have linked it again
20:13:45 <int-e> Meh. The "joke" (buried in the middle of the video) is basing a system of measurements on 3 units all starting with c: c, the speed of light; cal, the calory, and C_4, the frequency of the middle C.
20:14:00 <int-e> As far as I can tell, the rest is a lecture on units of measurements.
20:15:59 <river> yes
20:16:04 <river> i thought that was funny
20:16:10 <river> sorry you didn't like it as much
20:17:15 <int-e> It's a cute idea but I resent the attempt to waste my time (I clicked around the video until I found the joke instead)
20:18:07 <fizzie> I was wasting time anyway, so I don't resent that bit, but I was left disappointed because I was expecting a pun.
20:18:20 <b_jonas> int-e: is that like the furlong fortnight wahtever the third was unit system?
20:18:30 <fizzie> The FFF system is mentioned in the video, yes.
20:18:32 <Melvar> (firkin)
20:18:38 <river> hmmm
20:18:45 <river> i never thought of it as wasting time on purpose
20:21:53 <int-e> river: it's not exactly the video author's fault; aiui, youtube monetizes videos based on the time people spend watching them
20:25:20 <b_jonas> farad
20:25:24 <b_jonas> or fahrenheit
20:43:04 <b_jonas> `q motio
20:43:05 <HackEso> 482) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
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21:38:03 <int-e> . o O ( The trick to making a perpetuum mobile is to just keep going. )
21:39:06 <river> you need a crank that never stops
21:39:17 <river> turning
21:39:40 <fizzie> "Isn't that what all the perpetual motion proponents are, cranks that never stop?"
21:40:29 <b_jonas> `q motio
21:40:30 <HackEso> 482) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
21:40:47 <b_jonas> still the same
21:41:38 <fizzie> There's a song about perpetual motion machine, but the lyrics are in Finnish, so I think you'll miss a lot of it, sorry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE7TOaTv3SI
21:41:44 <fizzie> The original is in Swedish, I believe.
21:42:28 <b_jonas> is it one of those infinite songs?
21:42:33 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_is_the_song_that_never_ends
21:42:49 <fizzie> No, it just describes a machine that produces electricity to keep itself going.
21:44:45 <fizzie> In Swedish, for reasons of fairness and equal time and all that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtua8rqCNC0
21:47:50 <fizzie> I did find an a cappella group doing a version in English at a live show in South Korea too, but...
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22:10:31 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87104&oldid=87084 * TeamLightning * (+25) Changed Hello World to PL2 ASM, changed commit.
22:10:38 <nakilon> where is fungot
22:11:27 <nakilon> I just wanted to ask him if he's perpetual but he appears to be not _--
22:17:23 <fizzie> Oh, huh.
22:19:10 <fizzie> It'll have been that TCP connection thing we discussed the last time this happened.
22:19:43 <fizzie> Which I said it won't help to solve until I can teach the Befunge part to (a) persist the ignore list and (b) autojoin channels, which takes some :effort:.
22:19:48 <fizzie> Let's just fix it manually again.
22:19:58 <int-e> . o O ( optimistic TCP: the connection is half open )
22:20:28 -!- fungot has joined.
22:20:43 <fizzie> It dropped off already on Aug 4 and I didn't notice. :/
22:21:37 <int-e> ^style
22:21:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
22:21:46 <int-e> fungot: what ircs you, my friend?
22:21:46 <fungot> int-e: s/ thins/ this/
22:23:12 <b_jonas> fungot, is the future always in motion?
22:23:12 <fungot> b_jonas: or is there some way to represent the fnord system and all local names are determined in the binary to install.
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22:55:33 <nakilon> I hate to do temporal workarounds and doing things in the unplanned order
22:55:45 <nakilon> so velik is currently waiting for when I finish making my monitoring thing
22:56:06 <nakilon> and it weights when google fix the bug on their side
22:56:09 <nakilon> *waits
22:58:07 <nakilon> and I have no idea when it will be fixed because their ticket shows up as "195636524[Details unavailable.]"
22:58:25 <nakilon> (195 mln tickets?...)
23:08:03 <fizzie> Tempted to look that up, but I couldn't comment even if I did, so it'd be pretty pointless.
23:31:36 <nakilon> what? you can look up internal google tickets?
23:35:02 <fizzie> Well, I work there, and most of the time bugs with numbers like that are viewable to all employees. Though that might well be one of the exceptions, if it's a customer issue and might contain some identifying details.
23:36:32 <nakilon> woah
23:36:53 <nakilon> for how long you work there?
23:37:22 <fizzie> For a while now, since 2015.
23:41:54 <nakilon> that's cool; the Moscow office isn't for devs, only for client managers
23:42:49 <nakilon> AFAIK
23:48:46 <nakilon> what problems are you solving there?
23:49:11 <fizzie> Re offices, from what I've heard, the Helsinki office has like 12 people in it. And is just a few rented rooms in a building. Haven't even visited.
23:50:14 <fizzie> In terms of that, I've been keeping it on the level of "Android app development", that way I don't have to worry about what's public and what's not.
23:50:42 <fizzie> I think there's Cloud folks in our building somewhere though.
23:51:15 <int-e> rainmakers
23:51:17 <fizzie> And Deepmind used to have two floors of it, they're the sexy and mysterious ones. Had it all locked down and everything.
23:52:08 <fizzie> There was a robotics lab or two in the floor plans in their bit.
23:52:42 <fizzie> (They've moved out now.)
23:56:17 <nakilon> have you seen a fancy 'g"-shaped chair?
23:57:45 <nakilon> there is one on the floor here where they do public meetups
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23:59:41 <oerjan> int-e: ok, i interpreted the previous girl genius wrong, but at least i can blame the initial lack of color.
2021-08-10
00:00:11 <nakilon> oh they have it in google street view https://goo.gl/maps/wd5fpPybgA4GNy9KA
00:02:43 <nakilon> chair is gone; but looks like you can have a virtual walk in the working space; they blurred a lot
00:03:05 <fizzie> Was going to say, not seeing a g-shaped chair.
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00:09:01 <fizzie> I've not been to that many offices, but of the ones I've been to, I think the Zürich one's been the most whimsical. They've got a lot of these old ski lift cabins redecorated and repurposed for ad-hoc meetings. No Street View, though.
00:09:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87105&oldid=87091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+530) Fxi mrinoer tpyose
00:36:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: so you still work at Google? also the chairs are g-shaped when viewed from which direction? are they rocking chairs?
00:36:54 <fizzie> I haven't seen these chairs.
00:37:28 <fizzie> We've got some vaguely S-shaped chairs in some of the non-working spaces, I think they're a moderately well-known designer chair.
00:38:00 <oerjan> all you need to change S to g is to push hard in the right place hth
00:38:08 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panton_Chair <- those things
00:38:28 <fizzie> "The world's first moulded plastic chair, it is considered to be one of the masterpieces of Danish design."
00:40:44 <b_jonas> oh, that's S-shaped without the top of the S. that's easy.
00:42:05 <int-e> oerjan: I still don't remember who that is though :P
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00:43:57 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/ZhywAwZ.png
00:44:17 * nakilon sighs about his idea of making IDE in CSS
00:44:47 <teaml> thats an idea that pains me very much
00:44:50 <teaml> please try it
00:44:56 <nakilon> _--
00:45:35 <teaml> can you even do that?
00:45:41 <teaml> is css that advanced?
00:45:54 <nakilon> it's js, jquery
00:46:24 <teaml> not the object Object
00:46:28 <teaml> making IDE in CSS
00:47:41 <nakilon> found the chair https://www.setaprint.net/2015/07/letter-g-chair/
00:47:47 <nakilon> but it was painted in brand colors
00:52:27 <b_jonas> ah
00:57:33 <oerjan> int-e: that's lord moonbark, who i specifically excluded it being
00:58:32 <oerjan> int-e: he's the one who showed gil and trelawney thorpe the mirror in londinium
00:59:15 <int-e> so many traitors
01:02:52 <oerjan> i was also confused by him fashionably wearing different clothes every time he appears
01:04:12 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87106&oldid=87036 * Xorol * (-49)
01:04:55 <oerjan> i suppose a lot of the cast do that, but somehow that made it easier to believe it wasn't him on the first checking
01:06:59 <oerjan> . o O ( well we _are_ talking about a comic that has regularly made paper doll outfits as fan service )
01:07:43 <oerjan> might be about time for a new intermission with H. Fashion Clank
01:13:00 <int-e> or another month of the circus people doing a radio show?
01:13:23 <int-e> this comic has had soooo many intermissions
01:13:39 <int-e> tbf it is a rather long-running one too
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01:25:58 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87107&oldid=87106 * Xorol * (+470) Added a proof of turing-completeness
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01:27:18 <b_jonas> int-e: and it's one of multiple comics that #esoteric is so much into that I keep consider if I should binge read it at some point. especially as I believe #esoteric,'s recommendation was most of what pushed me to read OotS, and I enjoy OotS a lot
01:27:55 <oerjan> int-e: i don't remember it being the circus people, thought it was the foglio author avatars
01:28:20 <oerjan> although back when it ran, that may have been less obvious
01:28:54 <oerjan> `? comics
01:28:58 <HackEso> Recommended comics include Yet Another Genius Gamer, Stuck Girl, Home of the Order, and Fantasy Stick Comic. The content of this list is not to be questioned.
01:29:01 <int-e> oerjan: you're more likely to be right than I am
01:29:03 <int-e> :P
01:29:09 <oerjan> OF COURSE I AM
01:29:16 <oerjan> although maybe i should check
01:29:30 <b_jonas> huh, I don't recall that thing
01:30:24 <b_jonas> `? o
01:30:26 <HackEso> o is a popular comedy fantasy webcomic. It's about a group called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence, and eventually stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order.
01:30:31 <b_jonas> `? olist
01:30:32 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
01:32:48 <b_jonas> `? g
01:32:50 <HackEso> g? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:32:58 <b_jonas> `? glist
01:32:59 <b_jonas> `? slist
01:33:00 <HackEso> glist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:33:01 <b_jonas> `? smlist
01:33:01 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
01:33:03 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
01:33:10 <b_jonas> `? gglist
01:33:11 <HackEso> gglist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:33:50 <int-e> `? xkcdlist
01:33:51 <HackEso> xkcdlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:33:57 <oerjan> b_jonas: girl genius updates too regularly to have a list
01:33:58 <int-e> `? iwclist
01:34:00 <HackEso> iwclist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:34:08 <b_jonas> yeah
01:34:26 <int-e> `? swlist
01:34:28 <HackEso> swlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:34:28 <oerjan> yafgc could be debated, but it updates frequently when it does
01:34:42 <b_jonas> and IWC updates regularly except it updates an hour earlier than it should
01:35:07 <int-e> `? ksbdlist
01:35:10 <HackEso> ksbdlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:35:13 <oerjan> i haven't got back to iwc since my hiatus
01:35:43 <int-e> (sw is something some people here might recognize... if someone guesses ksbd that would surprise me a little bit, I guess)
01:37:12 <int-e> Actually I'm reading two comics that fit "sw", fun.
01:37:32 <b_jonas> I used to ring the pbflist, but then I started disliking that comic strip so I stopped with the update notifications, but also didn't dare to remove the command or the wisdom
01:37:36 <int-e> Maybe I should abbreviate one of them as s&w instead
01:37:59 <b_jonas> I also used to ring bobadventureslist and ehlist
01:38:50 <int-e> (The comics I had in mind are: Sandra & Woo; Slack Wyrm; Kill Six Billion Demons)
01:39:24 <oerjan> i think i've heard the name Sandra & Woo and that's as close as i get
01:39:44 <b_jonas> Sandra & Woo is another one that used to be good in the first few years
01:40:01 <b_jonas> but didn't keep its quality
01:40:12 <b_jonas> though on the plus side, it does have a mostly consistent update schedule
01:42:42 <b_jonas> I'm particularly impressed with the drawing style of early Sandra & Woo by the way
01:42:47 <oerjan> i think schlock mercenary was the last comic i really got into but that has finished
01:42:53 <b_jonas> which is, you know, unusual among webcomics I read
01:43:06 <b_jonas> wait what?
01:43:11 <b_jonas> Schlock Mercenary finished?
01:43:19 <b_jonas> wasn't that one of the ever-going never finishing comic?
01:43:53 <b_jonas> wow
01:44:45 <b_jonas> is that the longest running webcomic with a definite end?
01:45:01 <oerjan> could be?
01:45:24 <fizzie> I think it also never had any missed days?
01:46:02 <oerjan> istr reading that too
01:46:11 <fizzie> https://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/nineteen-years/ "The comic has updated daily, every day, without fail, for nineteen years now."
01:46:22 <fizzie> And I don't think that failed during the last year either.
01:47:25 <int-e> It wrapped up pretty well too.
01:47:58 <b_jonas> most webcomics never come to a definite end, they're just abandonned. I know of some shorter webcomics that wrapped up properly, but not one that long.
01:48:11 <fizzie> https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WebcomicsLongRunners has it under the "Discontinued" section as the only thing that reached 20 years.
01:48:27 <fizzie> If Kevin & Kell ever actually ends, it'll beat it though.
01:48:57 <b_jonas> I mean Irregular Webcomic is already pretty impressive, having concluded three times in eight years
01:49:42 <b_jonas> and I think DMM is the record-keeper, having had three concluded webcomics, with five or six conclusions total
01:50:35 <oerjan> i wouldn't bet on that.
01:56:54 <b_jonas> Joe the Circle is a bit odd, in that it has seasons, sort of like TV series, and has 13 seasons concluded, but it also started as a paper comic, like Bobadventures, so some of those aren't webcomics
01:57:32 <b_jonas> but I haven't read enough of that comic to know if it had what counts as concluding the comic, as opposed to just concluding seasons or story arcs
02:02:52 <nakilon> https://jsfiddle.net/9vetsczw/ why do these columns of + and x are of the different height _<>
02:03:20 <nakilon> s/are// s/do/are/
02:04:32 <fizzie> The xs have "padding-top: 0.5rem;" and the +s don't?
02:05:10 <fizzie> Or is that just for the whole chunk of them, I guess so.
02:06:43 <nakilon> yes, the padding is intended but the relative shift should not change
02:07:34 <fizzie> Curious. Maybe you need to do something to force a line spacing.
02:08:04 <fizzie> They are rendered with different fonts for me, in case that makes a difference.
02:09:22 <fizzie> (The +s come from Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, the xs for some unfathomable reason from DejaVu Sans.)
02:09:42 <nakilon> _Oo
02:10:08 <fizzie> (They both have "font-family: monospaced" as the computed style though.)
02:10:17 <nakilon> font is only specified in body as font-family: monospace
02:10:21 <fizzie> s/ced/ce/ yeah
02:10:23 <nakilon> yes
02:11:29 <nakilon> these fancy flex, grid things were said to make the life easier than table...
02:14:10 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with that, because replacing the x with x makes it render all from the same fonts but doesn't fix the spacing.
02:14:59 <fizzie> Looking at the boxes though, it would seem that both columns have the exact same total height, just the padding causes everything else to get squeezed a little.
02:15:37 <nakilon> hmmmm
02:17:02 <fizzie> As in, for this browser both the #row_adders and #row_removers divs are 16x150 pixels, but the other one has 8 pixels of padding up top, leaving only 142 for the actual characters.
02:17:19 <fizzie> Maybe you can fix it by ensuring that there's a similar padding at the bottom of the other column.
02:17:26 <fizzie> (And the whole grid, to keep it in line.)
02:19:17 <fizzie> Well, doing that got it... a little bit better, but still not exactly right. Not going to fiddle any more with it.
02:20:44 <fizzie> (I don't know how people manage to make actually good-looking yet robust web things of that kind. Because there's definitely things that do work.)
02:23:24 <nakilon> added more paddings around, became almost ok https://jsfiddle.net/9vetsczw/1/but the "width: 1rem" does not seem to work at all
02:24:00 <nakilon> (space between "1/" and "but")
02:24:50 <nakilon> "I don't know how people manage to make" -- I feel like they just force sizes in "px"
02:25:34 <nakilon> not sure about text base aligning though, I tried to tweak that too
02:27:09 <nakilon> also there is some https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/line-height that also changes the size in some misterious way
02:30:48 <nakilon> oh, acrually the width:rem works it's just 1 height != 1 width, lol
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03:24:24 <nakilon> switching from grid to flex solved the misterious paddings
05:04:45 <esolangs> [[Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87108&oldid=77367 * Xorol * (+0) /* Phyton 3.0 */ Fixed typo
05:42:15 <esolangs> [[OEIScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87109 * TriMill * (+4251) Created page
05:50:10 <esolangs> [[OEIScript/implementation.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87110 * TriMill * (+5870) Created page with "An implementation of [[OEIScript]] in Python 3. [https://pypi.org/project/requests/ requests] must be installed to use this interpreter, and an internet connection is required..."
05:52:32 <esolangs> [[OEIScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87111&oldid=87109 * TriMill * (+103) Added implementation
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07:16:01 <zzo38> Now I made up a format for compact binary structured data, which is: http://sprunge.us/G7xVU8 Do you think this is good?
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08:26:53 <river> structured how?
08:27:01 <river> I see that it has long numbers
08:27:10 <river> my book was teaching about long numbers
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11:32:21 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87112&oldid=87102 * Martsadas * (+23)
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12:52:55 <nakilon> amazing how coding in your "native" language you can write dozens of lines with algorithms of any complexity without an error but if you take something you aren't used to you are doomed
12:53:51 <nakilon> working on this jquery thing I have to test after every new line of code added ..D
12:54:05 <nakilon> because it always has an error
12:59:31 <nakilon> for example, there is a grid with "selected" cell, and at any time some cell should be selected so I decided when I remove the col or row containing the selected cell I select the left-top one; the first struggle was that there is no "remove event propagation" in jquery when you remove the containing row so the cell does not know you remove it, so
12:59:31 <nakilon> you have to loop along the row to check each cell if it's selected; and even when I do "if this==selected select(0,0)" on each cell before removal I've got a bug that if the selected cell was in the first row or col the top-left cell selected during the loop is gone in the end; I can't believe I've got caught in it
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13:35:33 <esolangs> [[Evil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87113&oldid=81352 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Hello, world! */ w
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14:24:42 <nakilon> so no colorful annotations list yet https://i.imgur.com/CmNuI0a.png but it reads and writes the file
14:26:04 <nakilon> now switching away from JS to make the rasel<->rasela converter; then the runner; then the run reporter
15:30:31 <b_jonas> fungot, if I were to want to disassemble you, what type and size of screwdriver should I bring?
15:30:31 <fungot> b_jonas: i know. he demands the framework used in r5rs?
15:36:00 <b_jonas> fungot, what kind of material is wolframane, and is it metalic or non-metalic?
15:36:00 <fungot> b_jonas: one sec.
15:54:26 <fizzie> fungot: Are you just researching the topic now?
15:54:26 <fungot> fizzie: what would it be unfair to give a 15 minute scribble, but i understood). to a top level
15:55:41 <nakilon> that's actually a cool answer
15:55:56 <nakilon> if bot sees he needs a time he says "one sec" and comes with an answer later
16:25:26 <b_jonas> yeah
16:25:46 <b_jonas> we give some time on exams for students to prepare their answer
16:25:55 <b_jonas> must give them a fair chance to cheat
16:26:03 <b_jonas> if they want to, that is
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16:48:10 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87114&oldid=87034 * Dtuser1337 * (+190) added fizzbuzz
16:51:47 <nakilon> I cheated on exams once; still feeling bad about that _<>
16:55:12 <APic> *shrug*
16:59:01 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87115&oldid=87114 * Dtuser1337 * (-300) i dont like <code>showerror(x);</code> commands.
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17:44:03 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87116&oldid=85987 * Dtuser1337 * (+1658) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
17:44:19 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87117&oldid=87116 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
17:44:29 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87118&oldid=87117 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
17:46:18 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87119&oldid=87118 * Dtuser1337 * (+66) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
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19:02:15 <nakilon> import is done https://i.imgur.com/q4QluzA.png
19:28:02 <river> hi
19:45:10 <nakilon> hi
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23:32:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87120&oldid=87093 * PixelatedStarfish * (+100) /* Random Number (1 - 10) */
23:33:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87121&oldid=87120 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
23:33:49 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87122&oldid=87121 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
23:33:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87123&oldid=87122 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
23:34:33 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87124&oldid=87123 * PixelatedStarfish * (-46)
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23:35:07 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87125&oldid=87124 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Hello World */
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2021-08-11
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02:14:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87126&oldid=87125 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Truth Machine */
02:16:03 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87127&oldid=86801 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34) /* GridScript */
02:19:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87128&oldid=87076 * PixelatedStarfish * (-71) /* Esolangs */
02:20:41 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87129&oldid=87126 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
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03:04:25 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87130&oldid=87129 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* External Links */
03:05:45 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87131&oldid=87130 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* External Links */
03:06:38 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87132&oldid=87131 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* External Links */
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03:17:28 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87133&oldid=86941 * PixelatedStarfish * (+295) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
03:18:06 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87134&oldid=87133 * PixelatedStarfish * (-171) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
03:18:27 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87135&oldid=87134 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
03:21:52 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87136&oldid=87128 * PixelatedStarfish * (+108) /* Esolangs */
03:24:50 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87137&oldid=87136 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) /* Esolangs */
03:25:11 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87138&oldid=87137 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Something */
03:25:21 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87139&oldid=87138 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Blood32 */
03:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87140&oldid=87139 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Heck */
03:25:37 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87141&oldid=87140 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Something */
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11:17:28 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87142&oldid=87132 * PixelatedStarfish * (+395)
11:18:48 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87143&oldid=87142 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8)
11:31:06 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87144&oldid=87143 * PixelatedStarfish * (+142)
11:41:06 <warlock> clear
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12:35:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87145&oldid=87144 * PixelatedStarfish * (+827) /* Random Number (1 - 10) */
12:42:20 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87146&oldid=87145 * PixelatedStarfish * (+41) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
12:44:33 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87147&oldid=87146 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
12:45:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87148&oldid=87147 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
12:45:45 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87149&oldid=87148 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29) /* External Links */
12:45:56 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87150&oldid=87149 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
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13:05:42 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87151&oldid=87150 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
13:07:08 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87152&oldid=87151 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
13:35:59 <esolangs> [[YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87153 * Martsadas * (+2439) Created page with "<b>YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB</b> which stands for <b>Your program is made out of many files which are made out of many libraries which a..."
13:36:32 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87154&oldid=87101 * Martsadas * (+80)
13:36:52 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87155&oldid=87154 * Martsadas * (+4)
13:37:21 <fizzie> A convenient and easily remembered name.
13:39:50 <int-e> . o O ( It's inspired by the less successful Village People song called Y.P.I.M.O.O.M.F.W.A.M.O.O.M.L.W.A.M.O.O.M.N.W.A.M.O.O.M.C.W.A.M.O.O.M.F.W.A.M.O.O.M.S.W.A.M.O.O.M.T.W.A.M.O.O.M.C.W.A.M.O.O.M.B. )
13:43:55 <int-e> Is it interesting? MOOM would make a reasonable short name
13:46:58 <fizzie> TBH, from the current contents of the page, it looks like rather conventional imperative language.
13:50:25 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87156&oldid=82070 * Betseg * (+85)
13:51:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87157&oldid=87021 * Betseg * (+16) /* E */
13:51:53 <int-e> Very sketchy... the "| Example" placeholders (I guess that's what they are) are confusing
13:56:55 <esolangs> [[Heck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87158&oldid=87152 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* External Links */ Cat
13:57:36 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87159&oldid=87156 * Betseg * (+66)
13:58:56 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87160&oldid=87159 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) See also, stub
13:59:44 <esolangs> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87161&oldid=73465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* External resources */ Emoji
13:59:55 <esolangs> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87162&oldid=87161 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* See also */ other one
14:00:18 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87163&oldid=87160 * Betseg * (+45)
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14:58:08 <fizzie> "Optimization_final Pass 2" reminds me of those files named xxx_FINAL_v2_REAL_FIXED.zip.
15:06:38 <esolangs> [[Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87164&oldid=73429 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) See also
15:06:56 <esolangs> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87165&oldid=87162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* See also */ Emoji-gramming
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17:33:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:HelloWorld]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87166&oldid=82882 * Sanscicondos * (+303) Expansion?
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21:20:58 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87167&oldid=84497 * Andrewarchi * (+38) Grammar
21:29:23 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87168&oldid=87103 * Dominicentek * (-136) Removed gotos
21:29:39 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87169&oldid=87168 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed number of instructions
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22:01:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Epicbebra]]": no useful content (only content is "Coming soon"), no history, no inbound links; feel free to recreate this once you have something to put on the page, but language pages should describe a language
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22:23:53 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87170&oldid=87014 * Tomhe * (+10) /* The Standard Library */
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23:48:30 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87171&oldid=87170 * Tomhe * (+14) /* The Standard Library */
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05:50:47 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87172&oldid=87104 * TeamLightning * (+22) /* Implementations */ changed GitHub link to point to main branch specifically
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07:46:52 <river> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5661
07:48:09 <river> > I noted that the BBB function grows uncomputably even given an oracle for the ordinary BB function. In fact, computing anything that grows as quickly as BBB is equivalent to solving any problem in the second level of the arithmetical hierarchy (where the computable functions are in the zeroth level, and the halting problem is in the first level)
07:48:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:108: error: parse error on input ‘,’
07:53:05 <river> the beeping busy beaver is very interesting
07:53:23 <river> how could 2nd level of the arithmetic hierarchy have influence on a function that gives finite numbers...
07:55:11 <Taneb> Why shouldn't it?
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09:36:08 <int-e> first level: phi(n) = exists k. psi(n, k), where psi is a sigma-0 sentence. second level: phi(n) = forall k. exists l. psi(n, k, l), again with a sigma-0 formula for psi... the latter is strictly more expressive...
09:37:29 <int-e> (The former is \Sigma_0^1; k can be viewed as a number of steps; the latter is \Pi_0^2, k can be viewed as the number of beeps, and l as the number of steps needed to reach the next beep.)
09:38:52 <int-e> (This is simplified though; in reality the variables need to encode whole TM runs with intermediate states.)
09:40:34 <int-e> hmmm
09:41:14 <int-e> that's just the corresponding halting problem
09:48:38 <int-e> The function version of these are phi(n,v) = exists k. psi(n, v, k) encoding f(n) = v; k is the encoding of a run of the TM (so potentially much larger than v) that produces v as an output, and phi(n, v) = forall k. exists l. psi(n, v, k, l), where for example, k is a partial run of the TM, and l extends it to the point where the TM beeps again.
09:49:46 <int-e> s/, and/. For the second level,/
10:06:37 <river> so it's kinda like halting but you count how many times it halts?
10:06:50 <river> but generalized so its not 'halting' but some arbitrary state
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13:34:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87173&oldid=70359 * Lyxal * (+64) /* A Question */ new section
13:34:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87174&oldid=87173 * Lyxal * (+108)
13:35:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87175&oldid=87174 * Lyxal * (+8)
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18:07:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Corbin * New user account
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18:16:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87176&oldid=87088 * Corbin * (+171) Introduce myself. It took a lot of effort to not use some variation of the Yoshikage Kira copypasta.
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19:40:57 <esolangs> [[NoCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87177 * Dominicentek * (+2149) Created page with "NoCode is an esoteric programming language written by [[User:Dominicentek]]. It doesn't have any source code. == How it works == This programming language has no syntax. It de..."
19:41:45 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87178&oldid=87080 * Dominicentek * (+24)
19:50:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87179&oldid=87178 * Dominicentek * (+4)
19:51:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87180&oldid=87157 * Dominicentek * (+12) /* N */
19:52:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87181&oldid=87180 * Dominicentek * (+0) /* N */
19:53:04 <esolangs> [[NoCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87182&oldid=87177 * Dominicentek * (-13)
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23:47:39 <esolangs> [[NoCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87183&oldid=87182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+117) /* Interpreter */ sum(map(lambda x: Cat, "Cats"))
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2021-08-13
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00:02:41 <sidelined> Do you filter colors?
00:02:42 <sidelined> ██
00:02:42 <sidelined>
00:02:42 <sidelined>
00:02:42 <sidelined>
00:02:44 <sidelined> ██ ██
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00:12:54 <keegan> lol
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00:13:25 <fizzie> That looks just fine in this terminal, but my browser's real bad at making monospace text actually monospaced. https://zem.fi/tmp/ugh.png
00:13:44 <nakilon> my font isn't monospace
00:13:52 <nakilon> I wonder why he did that
00:14:05 <fizzie> It's pretty clever.
00:14:25 <fizzie> (It says YES if you do filter out the colors, NO if you don't.)
00:14:48 <nakilon> it said YO to me
00:15:21 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/xGRi0OP.png
00:16:04 <keegan> oh very clever
00:16:05 <nakilon> or VJ
00:16:32 <fizzie> You get the YES out of the browsable logs by highlighting the text: https://zem.fi/tmp/ugh2.png
00:16:46 <fizzie> (With a slight shadow of the NO still visible.)
00:16:58 <nakilon> woah
00:17:44 <fizzie> Of course all that doesn't really explain *why* come here to do that... experiment. But I guess why not.
00:18:59 <nakilon> fungot do you filter colors?
00:18:59 <fungot> nakilon: pyrotechno ok. now i'm hungry. :( only one? good for him. ( and there are pi seconds in a fnord
00:19:20 <fizzie> ^rainbow NOT TOO LIKELY
00:19:20 <fungot> NOT TOO LIKELY
00:20:32 <nakilon> ^rainbow XXXXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X
00:20:32 <fungot> XXXXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X
00:21:14 <nakilon> ^rainbow X X X X X
00:21:14 <fungot> X X X X X
00:23:25 <fizzie> There was also another one, but it seems to have become broken for me, I think probably because it now truncates in the middle of a UTF-8 sequence.
00:23:27 <fizzie> ^rainbow2
00:23:27 <fungot> ...too much output!
00:23:28 <int-e> wow, firefox is weird... it shows "YES" if I select the text, but switched to a grey "NO" when it loses focus...
00:23:44 <nakilon> guys, how do you pretty print json in command line?
00:24:01 <fizzie> `... | jq .` is what I always do.
00:24:04 <HackEso> ​...? No such file or directory
00:24:10 <fizzie> HackEso: That wasn't to you.
00:24:18 <nakilon> the json_pp from wherever it is on my machine is some perl script that is too slow and if I stop it prematurely it fucks up my session
00:25:06 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-JgT.txt
00:26:38 <fizzie> I use jq so infrequently, I always need to look up how its pipelines and filters and general syntax works if I need to actually *do* anything with it, but I can (barely) manage to remember the `.` filter for just pretty-printing as a side effect.
00:28:21 <nakilon> yeah I wondered about that .
00:33:11 <Corbin> fizzie: Getting good at jq might not be worth it. It's a sort of tacit-ish concatenative-ish language, and it's nice for quick one-liners, but it allows modules and it gets unreadable quickly.
00:33:23 <Corbin> https://github.com/MostAwesomeDude/klesi/blob/master/cat.jq is about as good as I got with it.
00:33:59 <nakilon> nice, it's millions times faster than json_pp
00:54:33 <zzo38> On my computer the IRC colours are not even interpreted, so it does not say YES or NO
00:59:26 <nakilon> what does it say?
01:07:27 <int-e> zzo38: it uses the █ block drawing character for the YES version
01:07:39 <fizzie> Right, but I guess it would be hard to make out anything if the color codes are left visible.
01:08:06 <int-e> "not even interpreted"... oh
01:08:32 <int-e> yeah that'll look awful
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02:23:23 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87184&oldid=87085 * KakkoiiChris * (+224) /* Arrays */ Added Args dynamic literal
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03:07:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87185&oldid=87181 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* H */
03:09:00 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87186&oldid=87158 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8) /* Program Examples */
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04:17:35 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33r6NXbelJk
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08:38:05 <int-e> `' fence
08:38:07 <HackEso> 530) <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, any organisation called the Scottish Defence League should be beating up English people, what other point would there be?
08:57:51 <river> ^help
08:57:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:05:12 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87187&oldid=87169 * Dominicentek * (+74) Changed operators
09:10:45 <fizzie> Never really thought about the inconsistency that "defence" (de-fence) involves *removing* fences rather than adding them.
09:34:12 <Taneb> fizzie: sometimes what a prefix denotes can be counterintuitive
09:45:07 <fizzie> Demonstrably.
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10:04:49 <nakilon> is dewall something bigger then defence?
10:05:08 <nakilon> *than
10:05:59 <fizzie> Just another brick in dewall, as they say.
10:07:08 <nakilon> 30 minutes ago I realised I'm dreaming
10:07:14 <nakilon> rare thing
10:07:37 <wib_jonas> nakilon: no, that's called raise a wall when you build one, or raze a wall when you destroy it, and the two are pronounced exactly the same
10:08:21 <nakilon> usually for different reasons I don't use that, and didn't use it now; because I was in a street, there was a crowd a run partying, there was a cool techno music playing
10:09:23 <nakilon> so I decided to wake up to sing and record that cool musical motive; not sure though how to use it -- there is no working service to find a music from a singing
10:09:57 <nakilon> android can finds music from just 1-2 sec of listening but it needs a real track
10:10:04 <nakilon> *can find
10:10:28 <nakilon> btw I hate that people use smartphones ~100-1000 times more than I do and don't even know android can do that
10:11:05 <fizzie> There's that hum-to-search thing, but I've not managed to get it to actually work.
10:11:09 <fizzie> https://blog.google/products/search/hum-to-search/
10:11:48 <nakilon> s/a run/around
10:11:50 <nakilon> _Oo
10:13:53 <nakilon> fizzie hmmm from the gif it looks like they added it into the music search widget
10:14:41 <nakilon> now I understand why widget has changed the icon -- it's a part of "Google" application
10:14:47 <nakilon> and I recently updated it
10:16:55 <fizzie> Song detection (whether via the Google thing, Shazham or SoundHound) is definitely more robust when you've got a clip of an actual recording, even if it's pretty faint or garbled. The humming blog post claims "you don’t need perfect pitch to use this feature", but I feel like there's still some sort of a threshold, like you need to at least get the direction of most pitch changes right or
10:16:57 <fizzie> something. And I'm bad at making sounds with my mouth.
10:17:16 <nakilon> heh, it recognized the "Popcorn" track I just singed
10:17:42 <nakilon> and USSR anthem
10:17:46 <nakilon> damn, the thing works
10:18:13 <nakilon> even in faster tempo
10:19:38 <nakilon> :Unable to find a match" for my dream motive (
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10:22:19 <nakilon> I need to upload my recording everywhere with some viral text to make people write tracks then
10:32:05 <nakilon> I looked in a window and saw sky being so weird -- the blue part was white and the clouds were blue, like a negative; I said "dude, take a photo, quick!" and dude started making photos with his ball pen; I though his pen probably has crappy camera, but when I've found my camera it was too late, the sky phenomenon was over, then I went outside,
10:32:05 <nakilon> where the music was playing and people were walking, and one guy on a bicycle flew over our heads at the height of maybe 15 meters; I though "okay, but... he should land within at least 50 meters... hm, he does not land, he went even higher, this is weird, how he does that?..." -- and then I realised...; I hate taking cool photos in dreams -- there
10:32:05 <nakilon> is a huge photo album of beautiful sky there already, and I won't be surprised they are indeed saved in my memory, sometimes dreams have very old references
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13:48:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VitalMixofNutrients * New user account
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14:48:37 <esolangs> [[Ephemeral]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87188&oldid=68210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Syntax */ Ununoverflow
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14:53:01 <esolangs> [[User]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87189&oldid=68007 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub
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14:58:38 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87190&oldid=86993 * RocketRace * (+266) Define
15:09:29 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87191&oldid=87190 * RocketRace * (-2) aaa
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16:21:48 <Melvar> <fizzie> Never really thought about the inconsistency that "defence" (de-fence) involves *removing* fences rather than adding them. – It looks like it’s actually that “fence” is just a clipping of “defence”.
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16:53:34 <hanif> recently learnt of this https://www.3blue1brown.com/blog/some1 , perhaps a first foray into making math videos
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17:12:32 <nakilon> btw
17:12:59 <nakilon> защита -- defense, щит -- shield
17:13:50 <nakilon> it's kind of similar in Russian but it's about shield, not fence; and "за" does not mean "un", this particle does not have a particular sense
17:13:56 <nakilon> *meaning
17:14:52 <nakilon> particle without a particular meaning -- such a tautology, lol
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17:38:40 <b_jonas> the debian 11 release is coming up soon
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18:12:28 <esolangs> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87192&oldid=86506 * Sanscicondos * (+65) Added Neuron
18:13:54 <esolangs> [[User:Sanscicondos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87193&oldid=87192 * Sanscicondos * (+1) language teases, not project teases
18:14:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87194&oldid=83069 * Sanscicondos * (-89) Removed Featured Language Prototype
18:24:18 <fizzie> I updated my miscellaneous-personal-use VPS (that I normally keep on stable) to bullseye already, because... uh, I forget, but it had a newer version of some software that I wanted on it.
18:32:45 <nakilon> I moved all the stuff to docker on both servers
18:34:32 <nakilon> occasionally host OS would need some updates probably, but instead of updating it directly I will probably just start another instance and move docker containers there one by one
18:35:22 <nakilon> (of course it should be possible to move them all together, I'll just use the event to review/clean any possible mess)
18:36:22 <nakilon> security updates are said to be installed automatically in cloud -- I never checked it but I believe them
18:39:06 <nakilon> "I will probably just start another instance" -- maybe you did the same, can't tell from your message
18:40:36 <nakilon> in fact I've never updated any linux installation ..D
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19:12:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87195&oldid=87184 * KakkoiiChris * (+761) /* Gosub (_+) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:12:59 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87196&oldid=87195 * KakkoiiChris * (-3) /* Gosub (_+) */ Fixed typo
19:15:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87197&oldid=87196 * KakkoiiChris * (-142) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Fixed return statement in first version
19:18:06 <esolangs> [[Category:Stupid family]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87198&oldid=81531 * WallGraffiti * (-1) that spelling mistake was nagging me
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19:32:15 <fizzie> Nah, I did a "traditional" upgrade.
19:35:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87199&oldid=87197 * KakkoiiChris * (+81) /* Gosub (_+) */ Changed example
19:37:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87200&oldid=87199 * KakkoiiChris * (+302) /* Return (_-) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:39:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87201&oldid=87200 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Operators */ Fixed level 13 precedence
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20:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87202&oldid=87042 * TeamLightning * (+27) Updating this to be less terrible and more descriptive
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20:22:47 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87203&oldid=84329 * Grs * (-7000) Code removed,github link
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21:02:09 <river> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMgCBYgVwsI what did he mean by this
21:42:06 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87204&oldid=87172 * TeamLightning * (-3) /* Overview */ changed extensible to modular to match GitHub description
21:47:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87205&oldid=87201 * KakkoiiChris * (+233) /* Unary Operators */ Casts can affect arrays too
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23:01:27 <int-e> ...whose bright idea was to stick to 32 bit ints on 64 bit platforms...
23:07:21 <fizzie> I suspect there are several people to blame for that.
23:10:03 <int-e> (I did x & (1 << n) stuff without the proper cast; I should stick to (x >> n) & 1 instead)
23:11:12 <int-e> fizzie: I imagine that it reduced the amount of broken code when the world transitioned from 32 to 64 bit architectures, but by now it's more of a technical debt to my mind
23:15:50 <fizzie> Go's model is to have the set of integer types be int8, int16, int32 and int64, and then make the `int` type an alias for int32 or int64 depending on the target architecture, but make everything (slice lengths, indices, whatever) consistently use the `int` type. Maybe that's a reasonable one.
23:16:41 <fizzie> As for C, wouldn't it be nice if a `long short` was a 24-bit type, and a `short long` was a 48-bit one?
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23:22:11 <int-e> it would be cute... reducing the power of two...
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2021-08-14
00:05:23 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
00:05:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 132350Z 26013KT 9999 -RA BKN010 15/14 Q1005 RMK WIND 670FT 28014KT
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00:57:51 <fizzie> Speaking of things, does anyone happen to remember a game where you tried to catch falling shapes (I think mostly polyhedra), and when you caught one a voice would speak out one of those Exxx food additive codes, and the name would show up on the screen, and you got points?
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01:34:36 <Corbin> Is there an index of languages by natural/obvious intermediate data structures? I'm thinking not just about ZISC, but about the underlying endomorphism of a ZISC setup.
01:36:57 <Corbin> Like, Brainfuck's data structure is a list of nats and an index/zipper into that list, and instead of one endomorphism there's six endomorphisms plus a functor which builds loops.
01:40:35 <int-e> fizzie: The most recent experience where I had to catch a falling polyhedron was when I replayed Portal :P
01:43:34 <zzo38> Usually brainfuck uses a list of bytes (or, a tape of bytes), although some implementations can use other cell sizes too
01:47:03 <nakilon> speaking about ints and cell sizes
01:47:47 <nakilon> imagine memory model where every second byte consists of another number of bits
01:48:00 <nakilon> don't ask why
01:49:12 <fizzie> int-e: This was a 2D game (except the polyhedra were sprites that were animated to rotate). Also some of them (maybe the platonic solids? maybe not) were "bad" and you needed to avoid them, and that was the main gameplay challenge.
01:49:44 <nakilon> another idea
01:50:03 <int-e> fizzie: I got that (well, not the 2D part...) and it didn't ring a bell at all.
01:50:17 <int-e> Neither does the Ennn thing for that matter.
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01:50:38 <nakilon> you know when you are making notes on a paper and if you write the same digit 100 times it gets copied on the other side of a page, and on the next page
01:50:51 <nakilon> and if you write it even more you can make a hole in paper
01:51:31 <nakilon> so you should not write the same data to the same address or it will make holes
01:52:04 <fizzie> int-e: I feel like maybe the voice was speaking Finnish when it said the codes out loud, which would probably mean this was maybe a game with a pretty limited audience.
01:53:17 <nakilon> does the word "finish" have the same etymology with Finnish?
01:53:48 <Corbin> zzo38: Sure. The exact type used for cells doesn't matter much to me, and in fact I think it's nifty to imagine that many different flavors of Brainfuck are merely parameterized that way.
01:55:17 <fizzie> Ha! https://pouet.net/prod.php?which=3393
01:55:38 <fizzie> The bad ones are the outline ones, the filled ones are good.
01:57:39 <nakilon> ok, two online etymology dictionaries say there is nothing common
01:57:42 <fizzie> (And I think finish/Finnish are unrelated, but don't really know. Lots of bad jokes about their similarity though.)
02:00:01 <nakilon> I know none
02:01:25 <int-e> First you'll have to cross the finnishing line.
02:02:45 <fizzie> Why is it impossible to hold a race in Finland? Because in Finland, every line is a Finnish line.
02:03:10 <int-e> fizzie: Seriously though, the number of such jokes probably increases the closer you get to Finland.
02:03:47 <int-e> Because then you'll have tons of teenagers learning English who find these things irresistably funny.
02:03:50 <fizzie> "I've been working on a Scandinavian joke. It would be Swede if I could Finnish it, but right now there's just Norway."
02:04:37 <int-e> That one is pretty good and I'm pretty sure I've never heard it.
02:05:14 <fizzie> Yeah, I hadn't heard that one either. I think the wob page I landed on had a few novel ones.
02:05:19 <fizzie> "Why will you never win a race against a runner from Finland? Because before you even start, they are already Finnish."
02:05:31 <fizzie> A lot of them are about the "Finnish line".
02:06:17 <fizzie> There's also a few that play on "Russian to Finnish" ~ "rushing to finish".
02:07:18 <nakilon> lol
02:07:33 <fizzie> I feel like there's some others with a different structure, but can't recall any now.
02:07:42 <nakilon> there is no joke about Ukraine
02:07:52 <nakilon> because its name is kind of a joke already
02:08:13 <fizzie> In English, maybe something about cranes.
02:09:06 <nakilon> the word Ukraine came from "okraina" that means "outskirts (of Russia)"
02:12:28 <keegan> i thought about (or maybe read here about, and forgot) a version of brainfuck generalized to arbitrary algebraic data types for the cell
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05:05:56 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87206&oldid=87205 * KakkoiiChris * (+89) /* Fixed Range Access */ Reworded explaination and comments
05:07:13 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87207&oldid=87206 * KakkoiiChris * (+1) /* Statements */ Fixed formatting
05:11:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87208&oldid=87207 * KakkoiiChris * (+95) /* String Output */ Fixed formatting
05:11:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87209&oldid=87208 * KakkoiiChris * (+19) /* If Statement */ Fixed formatting
05:12:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87210&oldid=87209 * KakkoiiChris * (+19) /* Do While Loop */ Fixed formatting
05:13:13 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87211&oldid=87210 * KakkoiiChris * (+38) /* For Loop */ Fixed formatting
05:14:23 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87212&oldid=87211 * KakkoiiChris * (+58) /* String Input */ Fixed formatting
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05:15:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87213&oldid=87212 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* If Statement */ Fixed code
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05:24:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87214&oldid=87213 * KakkoiiChris * (+1926) /* Design Patterns */ Added while loop
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06:35:14 <zzo38> Other variants of the limits of values of cells in brainfuck is also possible, other than being the same for each cell, they can be different in different cells, dynamic based on other cells, etc. There maight also be possibilities other than simply a number.
06:36:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87215&oldid=87214 * KakkoiiChris * (+939) /* Operators */ Added string cast operator
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15:25:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of quines]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87216 * TheJonyMyster * (+297) Created page with "==Your== Should the example for [[Your]] be on here, especially in the "real quines" section? Not only is it a joke language, but on it's page, Your Your Your Your is a truth..."
15:39:34 <nakilon> wikipedia calls (...|...) in regex a "Boolean 'or'"
15:39:45 <nakilon> are there alternative names for this?
15:40:31 <nakilon> I would call it a "'choice' operator" to describe the similar thing in my own syntax but I decided to check how it's called elsewhere
15:42:20 <nakilon> hm, looks like it's also "or" in BNF
15:42:38 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87217&oldid=86113 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-49) [[#Your|Your]]) (Remove non-quine)
15:44:07 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87218&oldid=86980 * TheJonyMyster * (+0)
15:44:46 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87219&oldid=87218 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) Undo revision 87218 by [[Special:Contributions/TheJonyMyster|TheJonyMyster]] ([[User talk:TheJonyMyster|talk]])
15:45:42 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87220&oldid=87219 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) updated interpreter link
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16:01:13 <Melvar> I would probably also pronounce it “or”, or possibly “alt”, but the n-ary version I would call “choice”.
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17:17:28 <river> alternative
17:17:39 <river> choice
17:26:38 <nakilon> I ended up with this somehow: The "or-group" [ ] tries to match the object with any of a given list of schemas.
18:02:35 <fizzie> I call it the "alternative".
18:03:10 <fizzie> Or "alternation", maybe.
18:03:34 <fizzie> That's what Wikipedia uses under the "formal definition" part: concatenation, alternation and Kleene star.
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18:57:41 <b_jonas> "...whose bright idea was to stick to 32 bit ints on 64 bit platforms..." => you must mean x86_64, which does that
18:58:06 <fizzie> I mean, it's not alone in that.
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18:58:31 <fizzie> Itanium's int was 32 bits too; checked because I had a feeling it might not have been.
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19:00:05 <fizzie> And AArch64, which I guess is probably the second most common "64-bit" platform.
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19:00:58 <b_jonas> "Lots of bad jokes about their similarity though." => ah, like Ostrich-Hungry
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19:03:02 <b_jonas> (Finnish and finish)
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20:19:43 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87221 * CosmicMan08 * (+3428) Created page with "9f87m4atttaaaou; (pronounced Mashed Potatolang) is a Stack-Based esolang by CosmicMan08#1975 ([[User:CosmicMan08]]). It was designed to make it look like any program made in i..."
20:20:15 <esolangs> [[Potatolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87222 * CosmicMan08 * (+30) Redirected page to [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]
20:20:26 <esolangs> [[Mashed Potatolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87223 * CosmicMan08 * (+30) Redirected page to [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]
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21:32:37 <fizzie> Debian bullseye is out now, by the way.
21:35:29 <int-e> good to know
21:47:26 <nakilon> sounds like a new iphone
21:47:33 <int-e> Hmm, how do these things work, when do they bump the version of sid (=unstable)?
21:48:03 <nakilon> btw heard that Apple invented another way to force people buying new iPhone even if previous one still works
21:48:27 <nakilon> they are now unlocking older devices for police needs
21:50:25 <river> only older devices though?
21:50:26 <river> lol
21:51:19 <int-e> Uh, if you buy a new iPhone because Apple's unlocking old iPhones then you didn't get the message AT ALL.
21:53:00 <nakilon> I don't buy iphones at all
21:59:09 <fizzie> int-e: AIUI, sid and the current testing (now bookworm) does not officially have a version number. As in, the InRelease file that describes the archive doesn't have a "Version:" tag at all, and its decription just calls it "Debian x.y". I imagine they've had to put a number in some places though as a placeholder, and I don't know when those change.
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22:01:31 <int-e> fizzie: Fair enough. I'm looking at /etc/issue for this :)
22:02:11 <int-e> Anyway, I'll wait a week or two before upgrading, as usual.
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22:03:13 <fizzie> I'll be waiting a while too, but not because I want to be sensible and measured and all that; it's purely out of laziness.
22:19:41 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87224 * FLeckami21 * (+3444) Created page with "{{ WIP }} Sokolang is a programming language created by [[User:FLeckami21|FLeckami]] that use Sokoban gameplay to execute commands. ==File structure== Here is an exemple file..."
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22:23:35 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87225&oldid=87224 * FLeckami21 * (+129) adding a small thing
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22:40:21 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87226&oldid=87221 * CosmicMan08 * (+48)
22:48:31 <nakilon> didn't see arseniv for a while
22:53:44 <nakilon> from my esolang wiki categories page I've found three languages with [Work-in-progress] langs are probably not in progress for a while in fact
22:53:51 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Andrew%27s_Programming_Language
22:53:55 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Preposterous_Programming_Language
22:54:01 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bytemap
23:04:52 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87227&oldid=87226 * CosmicMan08 * (+0)
2021-08-15
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00:32:25 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87228&oldid=87227 * CosmicMan08 * (+86)
01:15:17 <nakilon> I just realised xxd and hexdump might be able to convert any file into a valid Netpbm image
01:16:28 <nakilon> only needs the "P1 #{rows} #{cols} " header string attached
01:16:33 <nakilon> prepended
01:19:02 <nakilon> I wonder if there is any utility to make all lines in files N chars long appending the spaces so the source file would me aligned for export
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01:26:42 <nakilon> nvm snippet from here works
01:26:43 <nakilon> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/programming-9/shell-question-pad-end-of-each-line-with-spaces-to-%3D-80-chars-875082/#post4326916
01:29:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GermanSpetsnaz * New user account
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01:36:37 <oerjan> . o O ( that _almost_ sounds like it should be a bannable name )
01:46:51 <Corbin> Do we have guidelines for how to cite things? I vaguely remember how it was done on WP, if that's how it's done.
01:48:48 <oerjan> we don't do much citing, but we (or at least ais523) do have sort of a meta-rule to default to wikipedia behavior when there's no reason to do differently
01:49:28 <Corbin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources then?
01:49:28 <oerjan> we don't have citation templates. that i know of.
01:51:37 <oerjan> ok in that case there _is_ a reason: "that's way overcomplicated"
01:52:33 <Corbin> Ha, fair.
01:54:56 <fizzie> oerjan: Hmm, someone has tried and failed for an hour or so yesterday to introduce themselves, I think because they kept ignoring the "do not include any external links" rule.
01:55:12 <oerjan> that happens
01:55:34 <fizzie> It's already red and in bold type. :/
01:57:00 <Corbin> Aw, is it "VitalMixofNutrients"? I was hoping that that was a hilarious real-person nick and not a spammer.
01:57:39 <fizzie> The message they were trying to add to the introductions page sounds pretty legitimate.
01:58:13 <fizzie> It just has links to their gitlab.com page, and a non-wiki link to BitBitJump.
01:58:38 <Corbin> Mm. Hopefully they'll figure it out.
02:01:58 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87229&oldid=87228 * CosmicMan08 * (+57)
02:03:38 <fizzie> There's also a pretty long actual attempted new article/language called "Tense" a while back that got blocked by the introduction requirement. Sad.
02:06:26 <Corbin> Is there a way to manually intervene and rescue those, once the introductions are done? I guess folks probably don't follow up if they fail.
02:07:20 * Corbin should save their new-page buffer before submitting
02:07:40 <fizzie> They're saved in the filter log. Which is public, so anyone can dig it up from there. I just don't know what the ethics of doing so are.
02:08:48 <fizzie> Technically the content is "on" the site already. And they did click submit on it, so there was intent to add it.
02:09:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87230&oldid=87176 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+222) /* Introductions */
02:10:23 <fizzie> Apparently the [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] page is also right on the critical 200k size boundary for the no-large-edits rule and therefore uneditable. Not sure what should be done with that one, it's a little unwieldy.
02:10:57 <oerjan> has anyone got caught by that?
02:11:41 <fizzie> PixelatedStarfish attempted (but failed) to add a Heck hello world a while back.
02:12:27 <b_jonas> yay, Debian!
02:12:56 <fizzie> And the page edit history has a "I'm trying to add Godencode, but it hasn't been letting me. Making it a 2-step process might work?" note, but it ended up with them just adding "Too long to fit here, find on Godencode's page" on the page.
02:13:02 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87231 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0) Created blank page
02:13:53 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the sid version was dumped a while ago, when they closed Debian 11 for new stuff (as opposed to fixing the existing stuff so they can release it) to start Debian 12
02:14:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87232&oldid=87185 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+15) /* Non-alphabetic */
02:14:48 <b_jonas> int-e: I usually look at /etc/debian_version for the version number
02:14:51 <b_jonas> it says 10.10
02:15:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87233&oldid=87232 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0) /* Non-alphabetic */
02:15:40 <esolangs> [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87234&oldid=71032 * Zseri * (+7) reference implementation got taken down, won't be available because it relies on outdated libs, too
02:18:27 <fizzie> 11.0 is what my sid system's /etc/debian_version says. That, and /etc/issue, are both from the `base-files` package, which is at version 11.1.
02:18:48 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87235&oldid=87231 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+139)
02:20:02 <b_jonas> "It's already red and in bold type." => <blink><marquee><font size="+5">
02:21:11 <fizzie> https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/b/base-files/changelog-11.1
02:21:40 <fizzie> (But the version of that in sid is exactly the same as in buster.)
02:21:48 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87236&oldid=87235 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+304)
02:23:59 <b_jonas> as for [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]], maybe we should just split it to five smaller pages, split alphabetically by the name of the language
02:24:33 <nakilon> $ echo "P2 80 500 255" >temp.pgm ; curl -s https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fis/fungot/master/fungot.b98 | ruby -ne'print"%-80s"%$_.chomp' | od -An -vtu1 >>temp.pgm
02:24:33 <fungot> nakilon: so am i. luckily i knew the guy who did fnord?
02:24:35 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87237 * Corbin * (+2816) Get started.
02:24:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm ok
02:24:50 <nakilon> results in such image: https://i.imgur.com/GbfFnEq.png
02:25:29 <nakilon> the only problem with this snippet is I hardcode the height 500px by knowing the length of that file ahead
02:25:41 <b_jonas> (about the sid version)
02:26:02 <nakilon> could add it somewhere in ruby command but it would increase the command length
02:26:20 <fizzie> Heh. That looks a lot like one of those mini-maps IDEs and editors occasionally have.
02:26:51 <fizzie> I can make out the punctuation triangle.
02:27:24 <fizzie> I still don't understand why I thought it must be triangle-shaped (it could just as well be comb-shaped and a lot more compact) but I don't want to change it at this point, it's too iconic™.
02:27:30 <b_jonas> let me read the announcement https://www.debian.org/News/2021/20210814
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02:29:41 <nakilon> heh, but you won't be able to recover the code from the minimap but yeah, looks very similar
02:29:47 <b_jonas> well, I'll install Debian 11 "soon"
02:29:53 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87238&oldid=87236 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+352)
02:30:16 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87239&oldid=87238 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+3)
02:30:24 <nakilon> "punctuation triangle" -- oh no, you've ruined the secret of that triangle purpose
02:31:12 <fizzie> It's got a comment right next to it. ;)
02:31:21 <fizzie> (The "0SE":,)'..!f"('?/s" line is a comment.)
02:31:41 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87240&oldid=87239 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+20)
02:32:49 <nakilon> very comprehensive comment
02:33:25 <nakilon> I suppose if I reverse the bits in bytes then such format would even survive the jpeg artifacts
02:33:30 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87241&oldid=87240 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+403)
02:33:43 <nakilon> I mean it would recoverable
02:34:29 <b_jonas> no big surprises in that release announcement
02:34:30 <nakilon> so it would be a lossy image format for code
02:34:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can provide two different shapes for essentially the same code, and let the user choose. I did that once, in
02:35:05 <nakilon> but of course not if that's befunge
02:35:21 <nakilon> some java and c# will survive
02:35:37 <b_jonas> in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
02:38:02 <nakilon> I'm tempted to make the full circle script that would compress arbitrary text as JPEG and then decode back
02:41:07 <nakilon> oh and you can fit 3 times mode code on image space using RGB
02:41:08 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87242&oldid=87241 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+591)
02:41:32 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87243&oldid=87242 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+11) /* \ELLOWOS */
02:43:41 <nakilon> you could fold each 3 lines of source code into one image line
02:44:54 <esolangs> [[User:GermanSpetsnaz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87244 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+183) Created page with "GermanSpetsnaz, also known as Christopher Strickland, is the creator of [[\ELLOWOS]] and started editing on esolangs on 14/8/2021, which also is the day that [[\ELLOWOS]] was..."
02:45:42 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87245&oldid=87243 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+26)
02:45:46 <nakilon> and to avoid the phase choice randomness you can do not just slicing but transforming the N chars long line into 3 N/3 chars long lines
02:46:33 <nakilon> so the image will become 3 times narrower and every consecutive 3 lines of code will blend
02:47:17 <nakilon> the first line of resulting image will be red, the last one blue
02:48:09 <nakilon> damn
02:48:18 <nakilon> how to stop starting making things
02:48:31 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87246&oldid=87237 * Corbin * (+1738) Accidentally saved changes too soon. Still getting started.
02:49:01 <nakilon> I have yet to finish previous ones...
02:52:05 <nakilon> I just wanted a small break during the making of RASEL IDE so I launched a game and just hours after I started decided to draw a "crafting recipes graph", so to parse the game files I had to figure out the format so I made the schema-validation library...
02:53:15 <nakilon> ... and the damn random idea of direct converting of the source code to NETPBM now wants me to research how much JPEG or WebP compression I can achieve keeping the text readable
03:02:54 <nakilon> btw, could not really make the bash snippet of "expanding line length to 80" fully work -- it was eating the slashes in $line
03:03:22 <nakilon> also I won't wonder if that befunge code passed through bash can format the drive
03:03:34 <nakilon> *won't be surprised
03:03:38 <nakilon> gotta go sleep
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03:21:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87247&oldid=87230 * VitalMixofNutrients * (+439) /* Introductions */
03:22:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87248&oldid=87247 * VitalMixofNutrients * (-13) /* Introductions */
03:22:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87249&oldid=87248 * VitalMixofNutrients * (+0) /* Introductions */
03:33:02 <Corbin> Ah, excellent.
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04:37:14 <esolangs> [[Jelly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87250&oldid=75879 * Corbin * (+227) Add proglang infobox.
04:41:03 <Corbin> Is there a definition for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Functional_paradigm? (I am okay with the traditional answer: "No, and asking is flamebait.")
04:51:10 <int-e> . o O ( It's the opposite of dysfunctional. )
04:54:43 <int-e> I guess it's the usual thing where the page authors decide whether a language is functional and it'll only be corrected if somebody else feels it's grossly miscategorized. Personally, I'd expect something that behaves like a function as a first-class citizen (value)... with stupid corner cases (first-order term rewriting is not functional; lambda calculus is functional; combinatory logic is a...
04:54:49 <int-e> ...first-order TRS which has the whole power of the lambda calculus, ugh.)
04:56:08 <int-e> I have an opinion on CL, which is that it really doesn't feel like a functional programming language.
04:56:31 <int-e> Mainly because it's pointless.
04:56:36 <Corbin> Sure. "lambda calculus is functional" might be the horn I have to tackle this time around. Lambda calculi are the internal logics of Cartesian closed categories. Are the arrows of categories always functions? No, but how dishonest is it to pretend?
04:57:07 <int-e> Nonono, it's all about Scott domains.
04:57:51 <Corbin> They're usually either functions with extra properties/structure/stuff, or they're functors/transfors/etc. which have extra dimensions which we're truncating away.
04:58:28 <int-e> Anyway, unpacking what you said, I'd say it's okay to pretend.
04:58:42 <int-e> Otherwise you'll reach the point where nothing is functional.
04:59:01 <int-e> Since it's just bits in a computer, 99% of the time.
04:59:37 <Corbin> I mean, I *do* take that position seriously in #proglangdesign and elsewhere: "functional programming" is a tribal identifier, not a classification scheme for languages.
05:00:01 <Corbin> But I'm interested in specifically what "the functional paradigm" means on the wiki, because I want to know whether my tacit language is functional.
05:00:24 <int-e> Meh. I tend to take the view that in practice these things aren't black or white.
05:00:51 <int-e> Almsot every programming language has lambda these days so they're all a bit functional. It usually isn't the main programming paradigm.
05:03:12 <Corbin> What *is* a programming paradigm, anyway? WP says that it *is* about classifying languages, but I don't know.
05:05:21 <int-e> It's mostly about how you break a program down into more manageable bits, isn't it?
05:09:32 <Corbin> I don't know; I'm pleading ignorance. It looks like there's no category on the wiki for tacit programming languages, anyway, so it doesn't matter.
05:10:02 <int-e> You shoehorn your program into an OO language by trying to find ways to exploit classes and inheritance; you do it for FP by finding opportunities for composing or lifting functions... and you'll invent ways to do each of these in any paradigm because it's often dictated by the problem rather than the language.
05:10:07 * int-e shrugs
05:10:19 <int-e> I haven't studied any of this...
05:11:15 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87251&oldid=87229 * CosmicMan08 * (+10)
05:12:26 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87252&oldid=86742 * Ch44d * (-3221) rework
05:29:47 <zzo38> I don't know how it counts either; many programming languages have first-class functions, including JavaScript (for example "(x=>x)" is a identity function), and some have other stuff too but some don't. C has function pointers which is not really the same thing (although GCC also has "trampoline functions"); PostScript procedures are arrays so can be used like other values, etc
05:32:29 <zzo38> Also can be the consideration for object-oriented. For example, in C there is the FILE object, and in GNU C you can use the fopencookie function to make your own implementation of that interface.
05:35:54 <zzo38> And then, there is the case where some programming language will not have such things as built-in features but can be implemented by macros and/or by other things within that programming language.
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06:27:46 <Melvar> I have some knowledge of how to encode objects in Haskell. The short version is “records whose fields have a shared closure”, with the delightful tidbit `new = mfix` if you want to encode inheritance.
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06:33:51 <int-e> Melvar: How does that work, new $ \this -> O{ method = \x y -> <stuff involving this> } ...?
06:34:14 <int-e> err, I'm missing a `pure` there.
06:35:34 <int-e> :t Control.Monad.mfix
06:35:35 <lambdabot> error:
06:35:35 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Control.Monad.mfix’
06:35:35 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
06:35:53 <int-e> :t Control.Monad.Fix.mfix
06:35:54 <lambdabot> MonadFix m => (a -> m a) -> m a
06:36:04 <int-e> (oops, evidently I don't use this very often)
06:37:21 <int-e> I /have/ used mfix though, for EDSLs with labels.
06:43:00 <Melvar> Yes, pretty much that. If the construction of your object is pure, you can do it with `fix` or explicit corecursion, but if for example your object uses an IORef internally you need `mfix` (or the non-overloaded `fixIO` in case of IO).
06:43:42 <int-e> Melvar: Right, makes sense. It's just that 'new = mfix' doesn't really explain much about the mental model behind it :)
06:43:57 <int-e> Hence the question.
06:46:39 <Melvar> So like, you can write an object construction function `foo :: someargs -> Foo -> IO Foo` and instantiate it with `mfix foo`. If you want to extend it, the fact that `foo` hasn’t yet taken itself is important – related to the concept of “open recursion”, which is used to describe the dispatch semantics of “this”.
06:48:11 <int-e> oh yeah, I missed that the reader monad would interact with this nicely
06:48:14 <Melvar> Because now you can go `derivedFoo :: someargs -> Foo -> IO Foo; derivedFoo args this = do super <- foo this; otherconstruction; pure $ Foo { <stuff using super and this> }
06:48:38 <int-e> though, hmm, maybe not quite nicely enough. it should :P
06:48:44 <int-e> (it's not a transformer by default)
06:49:20 <Melvar> Crucially, this causes `this`-calls in `foo` to refer to the fields generated in `derivedFoo`.
06:49:43 <b_jonas> I think to define functional programming languages, you should consider SKI (or BCKW, doesn't really matter) combinator calculus and lambda calculus, because these only have functions, so you have to build everything from functions
06:51:05 <int-e> The thing is, I basically can't program CL at all. I have a workaround which is to program lambda calculus and then do abstraction elimination.
06:51:24 <int-e> So... this is how I mentally justify calling CL not functional.
06:51:50 <b_jonas> there's also multivariate versions of these: multivariate (untyped) lambda calculus, and Madore's Amicus without rules 2 and 4
06:52:12 <int-e> But there's nothing objective about it; the most objective angle is that first-order rewriting isn't functional. :P
06:52:29 <int-e> And obviously you can argue about that one as well.
06:52:58 <int-e> If you want, you can turn my argument upside down; since CL (in that view) is functional, that means first-order TRSs can be functional.
06:53:01 <int-e> *shrugs*
06:54:44 * int-e shrugs. <-- Help! I'm forgetting how to IRC.
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07:02:33 <b_jonas> (I also want the Consumer society language to be a quintessential language, but I don't think it counts as functional)
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09:28:30 <esolangs> [[User:FLeckami21]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87253&oldid=76316 * FLeckami21 * (+21) Added a new language
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09:36:26 <hanif> '<Corbin> But I'm interested in specifically what "the functional paradigm" means on the wiki, because I want to know whether my tacit language is functional.' => [[Jelly]] on the eso-wiki is a tacit proglang and has [[Category:Functional paradigm]]
09:36:57 <hanif> a data point
09:46:12 <myname> does your language has a mutable state?
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09:53:57 <hanif> not my language, but i'd have to check its docs
09:54:56 <hanif> (which are at https://github.com/DennisMitchell/jellylanguage/wiki) looks like there is a register that can be copied to and retrieaved (under 'Quicks')
09:57:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * R-Prime * New user account
09:59:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87254&oldid=87249 * R-Prime * (+187) /* Introductions */
10:02:23 <esolangs> [[User:Grom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87255&oldid=81610 * Grom * (+73)
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10:46:02 <river> nakilon: i feel like you might enjoy this https://twitter.com/keenanisalive/status/1426510525555515397
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12:27:37 <nakilon> the last myname's message makes the most sense for me defining the functional
12:29:05 <nakilon> I say that "I wrote this in a functional way" when I don't use any assignment operator and just no nested and chained stdlib methods calls
12:29:17 <nakilon> *do
12:53:00 <nakilon> river never really did that but I would go for smth like ( max(0,(width1+width2)/2-(center_dist_x) ) * ( the same but for y ) )
12:54:32 <nakilon> I did physic simulation of a soft bodies falling and rolling on Athlon 1700, it was slow
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13:44:45 <Corbin> myname, nakilon: The language is [[Cammy]] and it has no mutable state.
13:44:58 <Corbin> hanif: I'm just not sure whether a language is "functional" if its arrows are not, strictly speaking, functions.
13:49:14 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87256&oldid=87225 * FLeckami21 * (+2357)
13:53:18 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87257&oldid=87256 * FLeckami21 * (+4)
14:00:30 <hanif> Corbin: is this category theory? 'arrows'
14:06:38 <Corbin> hanif: You bet it's category theory! A topos is a sort of category, and so if we pick a different topos then we get a different interpretation of the arrows.
14:09:25 <hanif> time to do some reading then
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14:39:40 <Corbin> Hm, is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization#Dimensions for the dimensions of syntax or the dimensions of memory space? I see at least one "multi-dimensional" language whose syntax is 1D but operates on a 4D spatial memory.
14:46:09 <myname> cammy is lacking a fix point operator
14:47:17 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87258&oldid=87246 * Corbin * (+116) Add proglang infobox. Clean up WP links.
14:48:09 <Corbin> myname: Yeah. That's intentional; I can't really undo that level of power once it's been added. My current plan, instead, is to add one (1) unbounded loop around an entire program, but require each Cammy expression to be total and terminating.
14:49:02 <myname> what does a loop help if you have no mutable state?
14:49:46 <Corbin> Loops can make progress with immutable state.
14:50:29 <Corbin> Have you seen https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf before? The goal is to carefully move from "functional programming" to "event-loop programming". And then, maybe, to reimplement the Monte language in terms of Cammy. Big long-term goal there, of course.
14:59:28 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87259&oldid=87258 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* External Resources */ Cats
15:01:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87260&oldid=87233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* C */ Cammy
15:07:14 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87261&oldid=87245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) Cats
15:08:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:\ELLOWOS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87262 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+308) /* Duplicate command */ new section
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15:21:53 <nakilon> cool graph
15:22:03 <nakilon> funny that "continuation" line does not continue
15:40:17 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87263&oldid=87259 * Corbin * (+384) /* Syntax */ Explain the type system a bit more, and give more examples.
15:48:15 <b_jonas> "require each Cammy expression to be total and terminating" => that never goes well
15:48:30 <b_jonas> it makes your programs hard to debug if they can't easily give an error
15:55:46 <Corbin> b_jonas: There's a tradition of event-loop systems where the event loop is ambient. In these systems, having an iteration of the loop (a so-called "turn") not terminate is kind of annoying. This is probably one of the biggest warts in classic E.
16:03:07 <b_jonas> Corbin: that makes sense, but sometimes you want to deliberately diverge, when you detect an error
16:05:15 <Corbin> b_jonas: I don't want E or Monte programs to ever diverge, TBH. If there's a fault, then I want it printed out and I would also like the process to crash. Because E is oriented around networking, and networking faults are tricky to manage, we don't want the additional complication of sync errors being messy too.
16:09:33 <b_jonas> Corbin: if it can print an error message then crash, that's fine, then you just mean something different by "total" than I thought
16:09:53 <b_jonas> is the program allowed to grow a list to double its length in each loop iteration?
16:10:23 <b_jonas> and is it allowed to grow a list to two to the power of the original list length in each iteration?
16:11:52 <Corbin> Oh, yes, the complexity class PR is ridiculous, for sure. I mean both that a single expression isn't Turing-complete and also that errors are handled with sum types rather than exceptional conditions.
16:12:18 <b_jonas> Corbin: so it can crash only at the end of a loop iteraton, not in any expression?
16:12:23 <Corbin> The expression (comp dup apply) is a standard Turing bird, but is rejected during type-checking as having an infinite type.
16:12:51 <b_jonas> what is comp?
16:13:01 <b_jonas> oh, you mean compose functions
16:13:54 <Corbin> comp is composition, dup is the diagonal functor, app (not "apply", whoops) is evaluation of internal homs. It takes a value x, duplicates it to make a pair (x,x), and then calls x(x) on itself.
16:18:03 <Corbin> As for taking too long in practical situations, yes; the current toolchain has no jets for natural numbers at all, so asking it to add 1_000_000 to 1_000_000 takes a little bit of time.
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16:19:26 <Corbin> But yeah, as stupid as it sounds, the slogan "well-typed programs don't go wrong" is basically what I'm going for. My version is "categorical expressions don't leave the category". If the category includes error objects, then it's not a problem.
16:20:02 <Corbin> And it happens to be the case that Pfn, whose arrows are partial functions, is equivalent to Set*, whose objects are inhabited sets and arrows are functions which can fail and return nothing.
16:27:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87264&oldid=87260 * FLeckami21 * (+33)
16:29:39 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87265&oldid=87263 * Corbin * (+1439) Add a section explaining the semantics in terms of lambda calculus.
16:55:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87266&oldid=84913 * Corbin * (+664) /* Tacit programming */ new section
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17:45:27 <Melvar> In regards to the link https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf from a page up: Since I only know STM in Haskell, does anyone know how it is made to work in languages with unrestricted side effects?
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18:10:02 <esolangs> [[List of complexity classes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87267&oldid=45211 * Corbin * (+2466) Unstub, put in several sections corresponding to categories, try to clarify WP's immense wordy denseness.
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23:06:07 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87268&oldid=84207 * Sporeball * (-1) remove last abcout pointer star
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23:28:20 <oerjan> <int-e> Mainly because it's pointless. <-- * swats int-e -----###
23:48:09 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87269 * LarhoCherqi * (+1659) Created page with "'''Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It''' is an esolang created by [[User:LarhoCherqi]], with other names being WDTTSDETIUI or Towellang. WDTTSDSETIUI's dat..."
23:52:08 <esolangs> [[WDTTSDETIUI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87270 * LarhoCherqi * (+68) Redirected page to [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]]
23:52:47 <esolangs> [[Towellang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87271 * LarhoCherqi * (+68) Redirected page to [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]]
23:53:19 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87272&oldid=87269 * LarhoCherqi * (+2)
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2021-08-16
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00:14:12 <Hooloovoo> why does Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It not involve towels?
00:16:07 <oerjan> i guess the author lost them. not a very hoopy frood if you ask me.
00:20:38 <b_jonas> threw it away after they never washed it
00:20:48 <b_jonas> it got too smelly
00:24:03 <nakilon> that's almost like b_jonas fixes teapots ..)
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00:30:16 <b_jonas> I will not buy this fungot, it is scratched
00:30:16 <fungot> b_jonas: brainsecks interpreter works :d. sorry. :( i know many people on scheme are you using
00:41:58 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87273&oldid=87251 * CosmicMan08 * (-8)
00:46:18 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87274&oldid=84895 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Commands */ Cat
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00:49:52 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87275&oldid=83933 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) WIP
01:12:52 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87276&oldid=87086 * Zzo38 * (+2396) ZZT/MegaZeux
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01:36:46 <int-e> oerjan: come on, pointless jokes are tame
01:38:32 <int-e> oerjan: There's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointless_topology and it's not! a redirect.
01:38:42 <int-e> oerjan: Which is in the same spirit.
01:40:52 <oerjan> it is however horrible grammar :(
01:42:27 <int-e> Really?
01:42:38 <oerjan> the article introduction, that is.
01:43:02 <int-e> oh, yes.
01:43:43 <oerjan> seems like it was expanded recently
01:44:32 * oerjan edits
01:49:44 <oerjan> done
01:50:47 <int-e> ...them frames...
01:51:09 * int-e ducks.
01:51:46 * oerjan remains oblivious.
01:53:59 <oerjan> mind you, it's still not _well_ written. but i'm lazy and i don't know the subject.
01:55:50 <int-e> oerjan: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/themframes.png <-- this one is totally worthy of a swat, btw, so let's call it even
01:57:18 <shachaf> So even a category skeptic would presumably acknowledge the following:
01:57:41 <shachaf> Even though every complete semilattice is a complete lattice, a free complete semilattice is a very different thing from a free complete lattice.
01:57:56 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87277&oldid=87252 * Ch44d * (+8945) add some rules
01:58:57 <oerjan> that's just how freedom works
01:59:37 <shachaf> Right.
02:02:19 <int-e> That framing though... are you suggesting that nothing is free without category theory? ;-)
02:04:11 <shachaf> No, just that this has a bit of a categorical flavor.
02:04:48 <int-e> Then again, maybe I shouldn't complain about framing after that "them frames" thing.
02:05:03 * int-e switches out the shovel for an excavator.
02:05:10 <shachaf> Should people even talk about frames?
02:05:13 <shachaf> I thought locales are where it's at.
02:05:26 <int-e> Kripke talked a lot about frames.
02:06:19 <int-e> Frames were also a good way to crash browsers... I wonder whether that's still the case.
02:07:00 <int-e> And FWIW, I'd rather have a window with frame than without.
02:07:18 <int-e> (Both physically and on a computer.)
02:07:31 <int-e> ...tThere's really a lot of things that are called frames...
02:07:49 <shachaf> I do think the categorical definition of "free" is pretty good.
02:08:13 <shachaf> I don't even know what other definition people use. I guess just one that works for algebraic structures?
02:08:31 <int-e> But then what did I learn the Knaster-Tarski fixed point theorem for?
02:13:50 * oerjan still has no idea about what's wrong with "them frames"
02:14:36 <oerjan> is it some meme i haven't caught
02:15:25 <int-e> oerjan: them frames have been naughty
02:16:12 <int-e> maybe it's just my own brain that chuckles at "them frames" without context. it happens. a lot.
02:17:06 <oerjan> OKAY
02:18:09 <int-e> In context, it's perfectly fine. There's even punctuation that makes all this inapplicable.
02:18:52 <int-e> Hmm. Not sure "punctuation" is the right word to use for quotes.
02:41:56 <nakilon> wow, found someone who edits Wikipedia
02:42:09 <keegan> i edit wikipedia
02:42:10 <keegan> on occasion
02:42:45 <nakilon> nice
02:43:07 <keegan> I used to live at a house named Pointless Topology
02:43:15 <keegan> in fact it had an IRC channel on Freenode (RIP)
02:43:33 <keegan> and there was a bot in the IRC channel that would control the color of the LED lights in the living room
02:43:47 <nakilon> house with a name?
02:44:41 <keegan> yes, it's pretty common in American nerd culture for group houses (with several housemates who are not related living together) to have a name
02:45:04 <int-e> Who wouldn't want to live inside Pointless Topology
02:45:15 <int-e> Where you can blend in with the crowd perfectly.
02:47:52 <nakilon> it's like something from a movie
02:48:45 <nakilon> in Russia you probably won't even meet any group of nerds ever in your life
02:55:14 <nakilon> *most likely
02:57:02 <keegan> don't they have technical schools and internet companies and hackerspaces in russia?
02:57:13 <keegan> that's how these groups of nerds meet each other
02:57:15 <keegan> and online of course
02:59:15 <keegan> and san francisco is not exactly affordable, even on a tech salary (especially if you're early in your career)
02:59:17 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87278&oldid=87215 * KakkoiiChris * (-158) /* System Arg (\<) */ Fixed typo
02:59:32 <keegan> so you can get a small apartment by yourself, or you can rent a big house with some friends and have a nice common area and maybe even a backyard
03:00:39 <keegan> and a lot of people prefer to live with people
03:01:24 <keegan> some of them are just housing, some are more like live-in hackerspaces or event spaces or communes
03:01:40 <nakilon> keegan the only such community I'm aware about is very small one with old guys who do demoscenes for 8 bit computers
03:01:48 <keegan> fun
03:02:13 <nakilon> maybe there are some in rare universities like MSU, just a theory
03:02:46 <keegan> it may be less common in the former USSR because the soviet union built a ton of apartment housing
03:03:02 <keegan> the USA thinks everyone should live in a single family detached home with a yard
03:03:07 <keegan> even in san francisco most of the city is not zoned for apartments
03:03:20 <keegan> but obviously single people who can't afford a whole house want to live here, so they split a house
03:03:30 <nakilon> basically people gather or rent a house collectively only if they are drug addicts ..D
03:03:34 <keegan> hehe
03:04:39 <keegan> yeah some people in SF even live hostel-style with multiple bunk beds in a single room
03:04:47 <nakilon> the house/amartment is just a matter of town size -- the apartments appear only if the town is big enough, it's never a majority of homes
03:05:03 <nakilon> maybe the difference is that we didn't have hippies
03:05:11 <keegan> heh
03:06:41 <nakilon> single houses are basically never shared -- they are the family thing, inherited all at once
03:07:13 <keegan> the professional class in the USA (including programmers) tends to move far away from where they grew up for school and work
03:07:19 <keegan> so inheriting a house is not necessarily an option
03:07:43 <nakilon> there are hostels with bunk beds but only in Moscow and such -- for immigrants from poor countries who work here cleaning streets
03:09:04 <keegan> yeah here it's like... immigrants from middle america who are trying to get lucky in the startup game
03:14:25 <nakilon> speaking about "IRC controlled LED lights", in the biggest and nerdiest (except of probably Kaspersky) company Yandex no one used or even knew what is IRC -- there was one internal server that no one used; we were using some different chat platform and it was awful, so previous admin gave me the server and I tried to drag my coworkers there; set up
03:14:25 <nakilon> Jenkins notification, reports, etc., but they didn't use it ..D
03:15:40 <nakilon> there was no such thing as "build platform with notifications" at all at that time AFAIK, it was before Slack, and people knew only a few ways to chat -- ICQ, Skype and rarely Jabber; and no one automated them
03:17:06 <nakilon> basically we only used email and "go to his working place and ask him directly"
03:17:41 <nakilon> at least in my department
03:19:47 <nakilon> for most of Russian IT companies it's only when Slack and such appeared and started pushing advertisment of their features they discovered such things as automated notifications and bots at all
03:21:37 <nakilon> not even saying about making such automations, only installing some IFFFT integrations or existing plugins, heh
03:22:14 <nakilon> if you automate anything you before a "nerd" within an IT company
03:22:23 <nakilon> anyway, time for breakfast
03:22:29 <nakilon> *you become
03:22:53 <keegan> i have a hard time understanding the idea that being a nerd would be looked down upon within an IT company
03:23:12 <keegan> at least among the developers
03:30:10 <nakilon> at all jobs I had there was only once a guy that is kind of nerd, at least he's into Haskell -- learning things that you wasn't told to learn is basically a shame here
03:30:39 <nakilon> his job is Python but he codes Haskell at home and does not talk to anyone about that
03:30:49 <nakilon> to not be ashamed
03:30:51 <nakilon> ..D
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03:37:11 <nakilon> also the thing about dinners
03:38:53 <nakilon> at one job our boss on purpose tried to initiate some coding-related topics during the dinner meetings; elsewhere you are supposed to only talk about sort championships and how you'll rest from the job on a vacation
03:41:08 <nakilon> so at the dinner you talk trash, at the office you talk only about the current tickets in Jira, and there is no time to talk about programming other than that -- after 18:00 people hurry to get home and don't wanna listen about code "because tired, don't wanna think"
03:46:01 <keegan> that's sad
03:46:15 <keegan> it's sad that learning things you don't immediately need is stigmatized
03:46:22 <keegan> although i think work life separation is healthy
03:46:49 <keegan> and i don't think one needs to be a programming obsessive like i used to be to be a good programmer at work
03:46:52 <keegan> in fact it may detract
03:47:04 <keegan> because i was always sad that the things i was asked to do at work were not as interesting
03:47:11 <keegan> and that i couldn't use the coolest language or whatever
03:48:25 <keegan> now that i've been unemployed for years I'm slowly regaining the ability to enjoy programming in my free time
03:48:26 <nakilon> idk, at that job others were asking haskell guy how to write in python because he was the one who wasn't lazy to learn things about its better practices, new features, etc.
03:49:36 <nakilon> and you can't learn new things by just doing jira tickets
03:50:49 <nakilon> how do you survive being unemployed?
03:51:05 <keegan> my wife works at google
03:51:16 <nakilon> I'm without job for a year and did a mistake to gave a part of my money and no I'm in debts, it sucks
03:51:23 <nakilon> *now
03:51:56 <keegan> that sucks
03:53:06 <keegan> we are having a kid soon and i will be a full time mom
03:53:17 <keegan> which of course doesn't pay anything but does save a lot of money in childcare costs etc
03:53:24 <keegan> and probably has other benefits to the child
04:39:07 <nakilon> debian hype
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06:39:55 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87279&oldid=87261 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0)
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07:03:40 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87280&oldid=87279 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+86) /* Hello World */
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07:05:00 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87281&oldid=87280 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+78) /* \ELLOWOS */
07:07:33 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87282&oldid=87281 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+38)
07:09:14 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87283&oldid=87282 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+4)
07:11:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87284&oldid=87254 * Red hot dogs--- * (+219)
07:13:31 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87285 * Red hot dogs--- * (+5341) Created page with "Pyfun is a programming language in which only the following five characters are allowed a [ ] + < Pyfun is designed such that it can be easily converted into python. To co..."
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07:30:06 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87287&oldid=87285 * Red hot dogs--- * (+204)
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07:34:06 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87289&oldid=87286 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0)
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07:39:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87290&oldid=87262 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+147) /* Duplicate command */
07:39:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87291&oldid=87290 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-1) /* Duplicate command */
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08:27:09 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87292&oldid=87289 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+81)
08:27:57 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87293&oldid=87292 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+18)
09:05:37 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87294&oldid=87293 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+170) /* Programs */
09:06:16 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87295&oldid=87294 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-52) /* User Input */
09:06:57 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87296&oldid=87295 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+52) /* No User Input */
09:10:57 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87297&oldid=87296 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+91) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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09:44:52 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87298&oldid=87277 * Ch44d * (+26565) add the other rules
09:49:49 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87299&oldid=87264 * Ch44d * (+16) add backrooms
10:36:16 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87300&oldid=87288 * Red hot dogs--- * (-164)
10:44:35 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87301&oldid=87300 * Red hot dogs--- * (+194)
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11:55:19 <b_jonas> fungot, how many different prizes are there that are considered "the Nobel prize of mathematics"?
11:55:19 <fungot> b_jonas: if common-lisp.net starts accepting requests from all and sundry here?) form is a procedure
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13:35:02 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87303&oldid=87298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lower
13:39:01 <esolangs> [[Math&Matrix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87304&oldid=76377 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Matrix form */ cat
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17:02:42 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87306&oldid=86508 * Sanscicondos * (+88) Added Categories
17:03:31 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87307&oldid=87306 * Sanscicondos * (+0) minor spelling change
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17:15:09 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87308&oldid=86186 * Sanscicondos * (+598) Added - Dedicated Program Creation Modes
17:16:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cheese]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87309&oldid=87308 * Sanscicondos * (+181) signatureee
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17:19:38 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87310&oldid=87309 * Sanscicondos * (+2) Updated Version - 1.3.5a
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17:36:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87311&oldid=87284 * Daggy1234 * (+253) /* Introductions */
17:36:29 <esolangs> [[Udymts]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87312 * Daggy1234 * (+1526) Enhance your python with this wonderful esolang that ceaser chiper's your code.l
17:39:58 <esolangs> [[Udymts]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87313&oldid=87312 * Daggy1234 * (+102) added commands
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18:30:06 <riv> > What if they just do the thing similar to how you can change the skin color of emojis but instead of skin color it's Islamic republic or Islamic emirate
18:30:08 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:77: error: parse error on input ‘of’
18:30:17 <riv> great idea, this would work with taipei and other controversials as well
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19:53:26 <riv> is currency a compressible fluid? is it non-newtonian?
19:57:24 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87315&oldid=87297 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+22)
20:01:09 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87316&oldid=87315 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+91) /* Memory */
20:28:15 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87317&oldid=87316 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-60) /* User Input */
20:30:17 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87318&oldid=87317 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-261) /* No User Input */
20:31:01 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87319&oldid=87318 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-317) /* No User Input */
20:31:24 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87320&oldid=87319 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-72) /* Hello World */
20:32:00 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87321&oldid=87320 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+4) /* Hello World */
20:32:16 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87322&oldid=87321 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-265) /* Hello World */
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20:38:28 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87325&oldid=87324 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+124) /* Programs */
20:43:43 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87326&oldid=87325 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-4) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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20:50:08 <riv> https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4226074/barriers-membranes-in-conways-game-of-life
20:50:11 <riv> that's an interesting question
20:50:51 <riv> my guess is no.. everything in GOL is 'flammable'
20:56:07 <Hooloovoo> the answer is no, not at least not last I checked a couple years ago
20:56:31 <Hooloovoo> cgol is just, as you said, very reactive.
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21:05:24 <keegan> yeah it would need some kind of self repair capability
21:05:28 <keegan> and would probably be quite large
21:05:45 <keegan> but that should be doable in principle due to universality
21:06:46 <keegan> of course you can also simulate another CA in GoL which is like GoL except for allowing some cells to be designated immutable
21:06:55 <keegan> but that's different
21:06:56 <riv> im not sure what universality implies that
21:07:15 <riv> yeah you could do that
21:08:17 <riv> hm what if it's just gliders you need to deal with. I think it's still probably impossible because they could come at any time and any place
21:09:12 <Hooloovoo> I'm not sure that really helps - unless the universal machine can detect damage to its borders, which brings up another long-open question, basically whether it's possible to scan a still-life
21:10:03 <keegan> hmm
21:10:07 <keegan> without disrupting it you mean?
21:10:11 <Hooloovoo> it *should* be possible to make a machine that can protect against solo gliders at a sufficiently slow speed
21:10:16 <Hooloovoo> yeah
21:13:56 <Hooloovoo> https://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Problem is an incomplete list of problems. I don't see anything exactly like this one, but I do recall some discussion of it
21:40:12 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87327&oldid=87326 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+161) /* Programs */
21:46:04 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87328&oldid=87327 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+383)
21:46:43 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87329&oldid=87328 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-1) /* Overview */
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21:50:52 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87332&oldid=87257 * FLeckami21 * (+308)
21:55:23 <esolangs> [[User:FLeckami21]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87333&oldid=87253 * FLeckami21 * (-6) removed WIP
21:57:08 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87334&oldid=87332 * FLeckami21 * (+67) add categories
22:02:39 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87335&oldid=87334 * FLeckami21 * (+2)
22:06:39 <esolangs> [[User talk:Kefalonia]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87336 * Kefalonia * (+0) Created blank page
22:10:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Apollyon094]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87337&oldid=69845 * Kefalonia * (+142) SBNs...
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23:21:45 <b_jonas> if I have n mostly independent changes to a code, and I suspect there's a bug that comes up when two specific ones are both merged, while the other n-2 are irrelevant, but I don't know which two, then what's a practical fast way to bisect which two those are assuming I can test any combination?
23:31:16 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87338&oldid=87311 * TJollans * (+198) /* Introductions */
23:53:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think you can just put them in an arbitrary order, bisect as usual to find the last relevant one, then keep that fixed and bisect the others
23:54:09 <oerjan> *the others previous to it
23:55:11 <oerjan> and i suspect that's pretty close to optimal too, given you need log(n*(n-1)/2) bits to tell which two it is
2021-08-17
00:01:12 <oerjan> hm xkcd updated earlier than usual lately
00:08:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, probably
00:08:15 <b_jonas> you're right
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00:52:48 <b_jonas> `recipe
00:52:50 <HackEso> hicken and \ remaining 1/4 cup of chopped celery and cornstarch. Stir in \ and remaining honey. Repeat with chopped fresh lettuce; \ cheese mixture over baking sheet. Season together and stir meat into egg salt. \ Add the shapes of flour with the corner and sugar in a large \ pan. Serve with peanut oil and almonds. Pour the cake on a bowl, stirring \ occasionally and remove from heat; cook over moderate heat, stirring constantly, \ until the meat is
00:53:52 <b_jonas> serve first, then cook again? interesting, recycling food to serve it twice
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01:17:07 <BusyBeaver42> Hi, long time no chat, I'm one of the guys working on the Magic the Gathering most damage without going infinite deck, we are currently implementing the waterfall model (https://esolangs.org/wiki/The_Waterfall_Model)
01:17:39 <BusyBeaver42> Today we found an infinite that ruins a lot of progress
01:18:03 <nakilon> I would take out the edits one by one until the issue is gone
01:18:12 <nakilon> so I found one
01:18:27 <nakilon> then I put it back and take out from the other side
01:18:28 <BusyBeaver42> It would be fixed however if the 'flooding' variant of the waterclocks were Turing Complete
01:18:35 <nakilon> until I find another one
01:19:11 <nakilon> so it's two bisections
01:19:56 <BusyBeaver42> where flooding clocks instead of adding their row once when they are triggered, add it X times where X is the number of times the clock was incremented
01:20:01 <oerjan> nakilon: that's not bisection if you do it "one by one"
01:20:09 <nakilon> oerjan, yeah
01:20:23 <nakilon> imagine I said bisect in the first message )
01:20:29 <nakilon> just doing it from one side, then from another
01:20:29 <oerjan> OKAY
01:21:29 <int-e> . o O ( But n+1 = n + 1 is splitting n+1 into two parts. )
01:22:24 <b_jonas> oh hi BusyBeaver42
01:22:41 <BusyBeaver42> This cause the clocks to explode in value and behave apparently erratically.
01:23:02 <BusyBeaver42> hi b_jonas
01:23:51 <b_jonas> BusyBeaver42: did you return because of https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5661 Striking new Beeping Busy Beaver champion, or is this an unrelated renewal of interest?
01:23:51 <esolangs> [[DDR]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87339&oldid=65332 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+41) Fixed order of arrows
01:23:55 <esolangs> [[DDR/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87340&oldid=63978 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+60)
01:24:47 <esolangs> [[DDR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87341&oldid=87339 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+0)
01:25:00 <BusyBeaver42> I returned because its now very relevent whether or not the flooding version is TC
01:25:59 <BusyBeaver42> we missed a way to set dralnu's crusades up to allow us to halt an infinite computation at an arbitrary point
01:26:06 <oerjan> ais523 needs some pinging for this.
01:26:40 <b_jonas> yeah, he'll probably appear within a day
01:26:50 <b_jonas> though I think he already thought about that
01:27:19 <BusyBeaver42> so we'd need to either only do one BB computation, or cut dralnu's crusade
01:27:51 <BusyBeaver42> cutting the crudase makes us the 'flooding' version and we dont know if it is TC
01:28:00 <BusyBeaver42> crusade*
01:29:36 <b_jonas> I admit don't really understand how the waterfall model comes into this
01:33:01 <BusyBeaver42> we set up Xathrid Necromancers according to the waterfall model matrix, Coat of arms keeps the tokens the right size while 2x arcbond keep triggering each other until the computation halts
01:34:07 <BusyBeaver42> Dralnu's crusade lets each clock have a triggering creature type that activates the necromancers
01:34:42 <BusyBeaver42> so that they dont trigger on each creature dying, just the one
01:34:47 <b_jonas> yes, but I can't recall what made that never go infinite. was it a trick with M:tG's infinity rule that makes some infinite loops a draw before you start them?
01:34:55 <BusyBeaver42> yeah
01:35:17 <BusyBeaver42> unbreakable infinite loops are instant draws
01:35:40 <b_jonas> yes, but that would normally still let you deal an unbounded amount of damage depending on the play you choose
01:36:09 <BusyBeaver42> which is why the deck is set up that we can't break out of a computation
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01:36:35 <BusyBeaver42> so if the computation never halts, we can't damage them
01:36:43 <b_jonas> yes, but before you set up the loop
01:37:09 <b_jonas> can't you set up a loop that will eventually deal an arbitrarily large amount of damage, more than any natural number that I choose?
01:37:49 <BusyBeaver42> nope, as computation is bounded by the busy beaver function
01:38:04 <b_jonas> I think we had this discussion and I'll just have to go back in the channel logs to find it
01:38:34 <b_jonas> oh, is the argument to the busy beaver (of some variant) the number of basic cards you have in the deck or something like that?
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01:39:04 <b_jonas> like you have to sacrifice a Plains every time you add a state to your machine, and you can't get any other than by drawing them from your deck?
01:39:05 <BusyBeaver42> yeah the size of the computation is limited by other resources
01:39:50 <b_jonas> or an Island. it's always an Island. nobody would mind sacrificing Plains.
01:40:23 <b_jonas> (Arcane Spyglass is a card I love, though it's not really useful for this kind of deck)
01:40:41 <BusyBeaver42> We are a bit more efficient than that and can get BB(5->5->5->5->5) or
01:40:47 <BusyBeaver42> or so
01:41:00 <b_jonas> yeah, so not just the argument to the BB function, but eventually the argument of some fast-growing function
01:41:18 <BusyBeaver42> yeah its not BB(infinity)
01:43:38 <BusyBeaver42> before the infinite was found we were thinking we could then do more computation, building off of the output from that
01:44:15 <BusyBeaver42> and actually do quite a lot of computations actually
01:45:34 <BusyBeaver42> but now we either have to switch to the flooding version, or only get the one BB iteration
01:50:16 <BusyBeaver42> so we really would like the flooding version to be TC
01:52:04 <BusyBeaver42> (Technically we could get away with a bit less than TC, but that's splitting hairs)
01:53:21 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87342&oldid=87105 * Ais523 * (-31752) clear Sandbox
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02:30:42 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87343&oldid=87314 * Razetime * (+4) spelling corrections
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02:56:11 <ais523> BusyBeaver42: I'm here, but I still don't have much of an idea of whether it's TC or not – it seems like a hard language to do a TCness proof or disproof for
02:59:31 <ais523> b_jonas: I think the requirement was to get the opponent's life total as negative as possible, so most loops with a damaging effect in would just set it down to -1 or -2 or so and then stop because you'd won the game
03:00:35 <ais523> hmm, now I'm reminded of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Xigxag, which is the sort of language which seems very unlikely to be TC and yet it's hard to disprove
03:02:37 <ais523> flooding Waterfall Model is better-behaved than Xigxag is, so it's more likely to be TC, but presents the same sort of problem in trying to prove it
03:26:06 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, if you don't use DMM's group's rule about that then that's another way to avoid some infinite loops, but that doesn't help avoid big finite loops. for that you need a limited resource, such as your deck or your own hit points, and BusyBeaver42 says they have one in that deck
03:32:39 <BusyBeaver42> yeah, the short version is we'd get a batch of computations for every sorcery we cast, the cheapest sorcery costs 2 life, and we gain life via 1 red mana, gain red via blue gain blue via white and gain white via green, gain green by drawing black lotus, draw cards with floating dream zubera with some other optimizations in there.
03:34:47 <BusyBeaver42> with the 'exchange rate' of those resources improving to the output of the last BB computation, the numbers get astronomical even if the busy beaver function was linear
03:37:35 <BusyBeaver42> ais523: one question I have that's maybe slightly easier than TC-ness is is any halting waterfall machine has a halting flooding machine that runs for at least as long
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03:38:55 <ais523> if you could prove that, I suspect you could prove TCness
03:39:24 <ais523> I don't think it's even theoretically possible for a sub-TC language to have a busy beaver that grows faster than a TC language
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03:40:35 <ais523> certainly, it's impossible for a language whose halting problem is decidable to have a busy beaver that grows faster than a TC language's
03:40:36 <ais523> (but I'm not sure about the possibility of sub-TC but undecidable languages)
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03:44:07 <ais523> if you have two languages A and B, B is Turing-complete, and A is computable (i.e. not super-Turing), then BB_A(n) < BB_B(n+k) for some constant k
03:44:24 <ais523> so it's impossible for a sub-TC language to have a busy beaver function that grows meaningfully faster than that for a TC language
03:45:37 <ais523> or, hmm, this actually relies on B having some sort of fairly sane string literals
03:45:40 <ais523> but The Waterfall Model does
03:45:58 <ais523> otherwise you can create a language with an insane encoding
03:47:30 <BusyBeaver42> hmm, interesting
03:50:43 <BusyBeaver42> I guess that makes sense, I was hoping for a shortcut, but seems like no such luck
03:57:02 <BusyBeaver42> Though we dont need "meaningfully faster" than the BB function.
03:57:49 <BusyBeaver42> just "not meaningfully slower"
04:01:59 <ais523> when it comes to busy beaver functions, there's usually no real difference
04:02:43 <BusyBeaver42> We could also potentially have 2 'normal' waterclocks
04:02:48 <esolangs> [[The Language That Explodes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87344 * Ais523 * (+2423) new joke language
04:03:54 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87345&oldid=86876 * Ais523 * (+79) /* General languages */ +[[The Language That Explodes]]
04:04:34 <BusyBeaver42> Though i'm not sure how much that helps with TC
04:05:37 <BusyBeaver42> But it certainly can't hurt right?
04:05:58 <ais523> yes, that would make things easier (although they're probably still too difficult)
04:06:46 <ais523> what's the precise rule for determining how much gets added to a flooding waterclock?
04:07:11 <BusyBeaver42> you mean by?
04:07:48 <ais523> ah yes, right
04:08:48 <BusyBeaver42> when a flooding clock trips, instead of sending 1 copy of its row, it sends X where X is how much it has been incremented since the last time it tripped.
04:09:28 <BusyBeaver42> (we are also fine with clocks staying at 0)
04:13:17 <ais523> I need to go to bed; I may think about it some more, but I can't guarantee that I'll find the answer (it seems like a pretty hard problem, and finding the original version of Waterfall took me years)
04:13:41 <ais523> it might be interesting to create a page on the wiki about it, in case it attracts attention of any of the esolang experts who don't use IRC (although that's a fairly long shot)
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04:18:35 <BusyBeaver42> sounds good, thanks
04:38:38 <b_jonas> "even if the busy beaver function was linear" => now that's an odd hypothetical
04:39:34 <BusyBeaver42> yeah, i mean it would be less than the BB function
04:39:56 <BusyBeaver42> but you start chaining arrows together and things get big fast
04:40:28 <b_jonas> yes, I know
04:40:50 <b_jonas> you mentioned 5->5->5->5->5, that's already big
04:45:40 <BusyBeaver42> last year's standard deck got to (42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→(42↑↑↑↑42)→50→7
04:45:46 <BusyBeaver42> on turn 2
04:46:59 <BusyBeaver42> turn 3*
04:48:05 <BusyBeaver42> link to the writeup if you are interested
04:48:06 <BusyBeaver42> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wjjHXZgGTnI0Qu6-L8pSyz9RZ72XL5xj4FszvHr2eaU/edit?usp=sharing
05:01:10 <zzo38> What rules are you using for "most damage without infinite" Magic: the Gathering, such as: What format and deck restrictions? What is opponent (if any) doing? What are you trying to damage (or does it matter)? Are any state-based actions ignored? etc?
05:16:54 <BusyBeaver42> mainly, vintage. opponents deck is 60 wastes, and will act against our interests, we are damaging the opponent, and all rules of MTG are observed the entire time
05:19:10 <BusyBeaver42> We've been doing a standard deck every year, though those don't need to go off turn 1
05:20:03 <zzo38> OK. What will be done with random effects (including shuffling)?
05:20:30 <BusyBeaver42> we get to pick as this is theoretical max
05:20:40 <zzo38> OK
05:21:01 <BusyBeaver42> though the distribution is so skewed that this is the average damage as well
05:26:23 <BusyBeaver42> oh and no sideboard
05:27:42 <BusyBeaver42> sideboard would basically make the deck 74 cards + a wish
06:35:37 <esolangs> [[Flooding Waterfall Model]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87346 * FortyTwo * (+1826) Rough draft of flooding waterclocks
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07:05:26 <nakilon> someone here asked how to move the edge around block in own analogue of dot
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07:06:13 <nakilon> judging from -v verbose flag I assume dot creates fake vertices along the edges to optimize them
07:08:23 <nakilon> looks like 1500 vertices is too much for him ..( https://i.imgur.com/LZGkV8T.png
07:09:36 <nakilon> 1500 vertices and 9000 edges
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09:07:58 <nakilon> probably I didn't have to invent a wheel of reducing the graph few months ago (if you remember, it was about homebrew deps tree)
09:08:09 <nakilon> https://graphviz.org/pdf/tred.1.pdf -- this thing seems to be installed with graphviz
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10:15:43 <b_jonas> BusyBeaver42: and your deck is limited to 60 cards?
10:16:24 <b_jonas> "sideboard would basically make the deck 74 cards + a wish" ah, that answers it. so yes, 60 cards.
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12:57:57 <nakilon> also it is in Mathematica https://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/TransitiveReductionGraph.html
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15:24:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thesundidntvanish * New user account
15:43:54 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87347&oldid=87220 * TheJonyMyster * (+3205) Added Headascii section
15:44:43 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87348&oldid=87347 * TheJonyMyster * (-20) removed unnecessary table title
15:47:22 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87349&oldid=87017 * Spargle * (+188) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
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15:49:08 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87350&oldid=87348 * TheJonyMyster * (+311) hello world again
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16:41:37 <esolangs> [[User:Cortex]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87351&oldid=63921 * Cortex * (-94) bye i guess
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16:49:03 <BusyBeaver42> b_jonas yeah both decks are limited to 60 cards
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17:40:15 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87352&oldid=87331 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+25) /* Memory */
17:45:50 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87353&oldid=87352 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+96) /* Syntax */
17:54:03 <esolangs> [[YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87354&oldid=87153 * Martsadas * (+1307)
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18:30:00 <BusyBeaver42> good news for you ais523, flooding clocks have a similar problem with infinites, so its not super relevant if its TC or not
18:30:10 <BusyBeaver42> bad news for me though
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18:34:48 <BusyBeaver42> The infinite is related to the fact that some of our creatures have two types, and we can have three of those arcbonded and kept barely alive by two different clocks that refill themselves, then reordering the arcbond triggers can cause them to die (123123 ->12131213)
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19:09:02 <BusyBeaver42> it might still matter if we replace arcbond with massacre girl, but she's very restrictive as we don't want to be able to set off a computation too easily.
19:12:11 <ais523> it's still an interesting question in theory, although I'm a little relieved it doesn't have an urgent practical use
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19:59:54 <esolangs> [[User:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87355&oldid=82405 * RocketRace * (+87) portsy
20:00:33 <BusyBeaver42> that's a pretty generous definition of practical
20:25:18 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Heptor * New user account
20:29:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87356&oldid=87338 * Heptor * (+210) /* Introductions */
20:33:17 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87357&oldid=87127 * FLeckami21 * (+260) adding Sokolang
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20:48:26 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87358 * Heptor * (+1409) Matrixfuck is a brainfuck derivative with the memory being a 2d array.
20:50:17 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87359&oldid=87358 * Heptor * (+104) /* Syntax */
20:55:52 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87360&oldid=87335 * FLeckami21 * (+0)
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21:08:55 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Heptor * uploaded "[[File:Matrixfuck Example.gif]]"
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21:17:02 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87362&oldid=87359 * Heptor * (+403)
21:17:57 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87363&oldid=87362 * Heptor * (-156)
21:21:26 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87364&oldid=87363 * Heptor * (+81)
21:23:05 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87365&oldid=87364 * Heptor * (+33) /* Syntax */
21:35:36 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87366&oldid=87365 * Heptor * (+245)
21:48:01 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87367&oldid=87366 * Heptor * (+433)
21:49:55 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87368&oldid=87367 * Heptor * (+131) /* Implementation notes */
21:51:53 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87369&oldid=87368 * Heptor * (+36) /* Syntax */
21:53:11 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87370&oldid=87273 * TheJonyMyster * (-10) toggles implies on or off, can probably be cleaned up still though
21:54:05 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87371&oldid=87369 * Heptor * (-31) /* Syntax */
21:58:08 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87372&oldid=87371 * Heptor * (+290) /* Syntax */
21:58:55 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87373&oldid=87343 * Salpynx * (+11) /* turing */ 'truth-machine' is what this program form is known as
21:59:38 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87374&oldid=87372 * Heptor * (+17) /* Syntax */
22:02:56 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87375&oldid=87374 * Heptor * (+106) /* Implementation notes */
22:03:20 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87376&oldid=87375 * Heptor * (+0) /* Syntax */
22:04:12 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87377&oldid=87376 * Heptor * (-2) /* Syntax */
22:04:28 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87378&oldid=87377 * Heptor * (+8) /* Syntax */
22:06:18 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87379&oldid=87378 * Heptor * (+57) /* Syntax */
22:06:55 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87380&oldid=87379 * Heptor * (-57) /* Syntax */
22:07:42 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87381&oldid=87380 * Heptor * (+93) /* Notes */
22:38:30 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87382&oldid=87381 * Heptor * (+313)
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22:43:00 <nakilon> someone's new online befunge interpreter https://tjol.eu/rfunge/
22:43:16 <nakilon> written in rust, aims for 98
22:45:37 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87383&oldid=87382 * Heptor * (-119) /* Implementation notes */
22:51:32 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87384&oldid=87383 * Heptor * (+56) /* Notes */
23:07:00 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87385&oldid=87079 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+3130) Added TwoBrainsfuck
23:13:17 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87386&oldid=87384 * Heptor * (+130) /* Notes */
23:13:31 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87387&oldid=87386 * Heptor * (-8)
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2021-08-18
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00:27:34 <nakilon> my conclusion after spending several hours on trying to draw neat graphs of several thousand edges: 1. graphviz really sucks in layouting 2. wolfram layouts well but the console tool is a pain without a notebook 3. wolfram mathematica costs money
00:29:29 <nakilon> there is also an option 4. wolfram cloud -- but I didn't try it, already very bored by trying to stylize the graph in terminal _<>
00:31:26 <nakilon> also thinking about IRC bot connected to Wolfram stuff for arbitrary purposes
00:32:54 <nakilon> the problem of REPL is you can't just run untrusted code on temporary machine, because you can activate the free license only on two machines
00:33:41 <nakilon> the most possible option I see is to compile functions and deploy on temp machines, should work on some ubuntu image I suppose
00:34:01 <nakilon> there is also a Wolfram Cloud Functions but with quotas
00:34:54 <nakilon> Wolfram Alpha is also quoted
00:35:07 <nakilon> but 200 requests per day is enough for fun
00:35:53 <nakilon> I had Wolfram Alpha IRC bot many years ago, they even had a neat documentation
00:39:21 <nakilon> this all is no neat https://reference.wolfram.com/language/tutorial/GraphDrawing.html
00:51:31 <oerjan> > let l=0:map(succ.maximum.zipWith(+)l.reverse)(tail.inits$l) in l
00:51:32 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,2...
00:51:50 <oerjan> hm underwhelming
00:53:15 <oerjan> except for the type checking on first try, that was neat.
00:54:18 <oerjan> oh duh
00:54:59 <oerjan> going to need the index anyhow
00:59:04 <zzo38> I had wanted to draw a ZZT world map, which doesn't have several thousand edges, but probably not more than few hundred. However, in that case also is needed the direction (north, south, east, west), and then there will also be passages, too. Also some links might be different when going back the other way, and might need multiple pages. A similar thing can be applicable for text adventure games.
01:01:01 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+maximum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in l
01:01:03 <lambdabot> [0,2,5,9,14,20,27,35,44,54,65,77,90,104,119,135,152,170,189,209,230,252,275,...
01:01:29 <oerjan> hm that's not what i calculated in my head
01:01:56 <oerjan> oh duh
01:02:05 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in l
01:02:06 <lambdabot> [0,2,5,8,12,16,20,24,29,34,39,44,49,54,59,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118,...
01:02:21 <oerjan> that
01:02:25 <oerjan> 's more like it
01:03:11 <zzo38> This is the code I have: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/freezzt.ui/artifact/ceca87315080ce9a Maybe you know how to make it better; I don't know
01:03:22 <oerjan> @oeis 0,2,5,8,12,16,20,24,29,34,39,44,49,54,59,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118
01:03:22 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A003314 Binary entropy function: a(1)=0; for n > 1, a(n) = ...
01:03:22 <lambdabot> [0,2,5,8,12,16,20,24,29,34,39,44,49,54,59,64,70,76,82,88,94,100,106,112,118,...
01:05:49 <nakilon> zzo38 in mathematica you can only set the NSWE direction when plotting directed graphs
01:05:59 <nakilon> probably the same in graphviz
01:06:40 <nakilon> and you don't be able to tweak specific branches anyway, like putting one to the left, another one to the right
01:07:31 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87388&oldid=87387 * Heptor * (+50)
01:07:48 <nakilon> graphviz is so kludgy, they provide the utility "unflatten" that creates fake nodes to make dot layouting less ugly
01:08:27 <oerjan> that function came up when i tried to find out if the two bisections algorithm i and nakilon suggested to b_jonas yesterday is optimal
01:08:30 <zzo38> I would not want to use Mathematica
01:09:45 <oerjan> it's a measure of the optimal efficiency of a binary search tree
01:09:54 <oerjan> (for n leaves)
01:11:48 <oerjan> and it turns out that with a bit of balancing tweak, that is the efficiency of the double bisection search for n=3,4,5,7,9,10 files at least
01:12:19 <oerjan> er wait was 9 included
01:14:36 <oerjan> no
01:15:14 <oerjan> 6,8,9 are one off that function but still optimal for the problem i think
01:15:24 <oerjan> and i haven't finished thinking about 11 yet.
01:18:50 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in [l!!(n*(n-1)`div`2)|n<-[3..]]
01:18:56 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
01:18:59 <oerjan> hum
01:19:04 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in [l!!(n*(n-1)`div`2)|n<-[3..11]]
01:19:06 <lambdabot> [8,20,39,64,100,142,195,258,328]
01:20:00 <oerjan> oops off by one
01:20:26 <oerjan> > let l=0:[n+minimum(zipWith(+)l$reverse$take(n-1)l)|n<-[2..]] in [l!!(n*(n-1)`div`2-1)|n<-[3..11]]
01:20:27 <lambdabot> [5,16,34,59,94,136,188,251,321]
01:22:08 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87389&oldid=87388 * Heptor * (+11386) i gave up
01:23:20 <oerjan> @oeis 5,16,34,60,94,137,189,251
01:23:20 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
01:23:24 <oerjan> darn
01:24:16 <oerjan> @oeis 5,16,34,59,94,136,188,251,321
01:24:17 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
01:25:10 <oerjan> maybe no one has considered that
01:25:39 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87390&oldid=87389 * Heptor * (-11221) /* Implementations */
01:26:40 <nakilon> I did some contribution to OEIS
01:26:47 <nakilon> when was solving PE many years ago
01:27:13 <nakilon> I've added a file with first numbers and something else
01:27:48 <oerjan> i did add a proof to OEIS once that i made after a discussion on SE code golf
01:28:00 <oerjan> but that's my only contribution
01:28:41 <oerjan> i don't remember what sequence it was
01:29:42 <nakilon> https://oeis.org/A181061
01:30:06 <nakilon> there as Victor M
01:30:30 <nakilon> so table and a plot
01:30:46 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87391 * Ch44d * (+377) Hello!
01:31:42 <oerjan> ic
01:32:49 <oerjan> nice
01:32:58 <oerjan> i found it in my mailbox http://oeis.org/A187924
01:35:54 <nakilon> heh this random '7' in #293 29999999999997999999999999999999293
01:41:18 <oerjan> curious. a lot of the others have random 8s but those look too similar to 9s
01:41:52 <nakilon> hah, didn't notice
01:43:30 <oerjan> i think this happens because to get a number with the right digit sum as small as possible you want lots of 9s
01:44:26 <oerjan> and usually you just need to change a few to 8s to get it just right
01:44:44 <oerjan> but for that one number that didn't work somehow
02:22:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: thanks (re bisecting for two changes)
02:38:40 <nakilon> this is weird
02:41:05 <nakilon> on this file http://sprunge.us/jGGXAz I do the $ tail -n +2 < file | jq . | less
02:41:46 <nakilon> then I use / to search, and if you search for "61" you'll find many matches
02:42:07 <nakilon> but if you search for "player" you'll find only one: "mounted_player_id": -1,
02:42:32 <nakilon> while there is at least one more match: "player": {
02:44:05 <oerjan> > "player"
02:44:07 <lambdabot> "player"
02:44:42 <oerjan> ENOSTRANGEUNICODE
02:45:00 <oerjan> > "ø"
02:45:01 <lambdabot> "\248"
02:45:41 <nakilon> I feel like it's some bug either in less or in it used with jq
02:46:12 <nakilon> ahahhaa, no, nvm
02:46:31 <oerjan> EOKAY
02:46:41 <nakilon> the thing is that the context around "mounted_player_id" is so similar that when I press 'n' and 'N' the screen does not change
02:46:48 <nakilon> so I supposed there is no other match found
02:47:27 <nakilon> time to sleep
02:51:35 <int-e> a(4649) = 9949859999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...
02:51:41 <int-e> ...99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999994649 requires quite a lot of changes (mainly because 10^7 = 1 (mod 4649))
02:52:58 <int-e> for the same reason they're concentrated in the leading 7 digits of the number
03:08:03 <int-e> oh, that number has digit sum 4648, oops
03:09:46 <int-e> So, correction: a(4649) = 29289699999[500x9]999994649
03:45:42 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87392 * Ch44d * (+73) Claim page and add interpreter
03:46:37 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87393&oldid=87391 * Ch44d * (+20) add dual tape
03:54:44 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87394 * Ch44d * (+76) Claim page and add interpreter
03:55:09 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87395&oldid=87393 * Ch44d * (+23) add dual tape ez
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04:31:09 <oerjan> looking at today's girl genius, i cannot help guessing who this is https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20030604 https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20040908
04:31:42 <oerjan> . o O ( it's either that, or othar. )
04:37:35 <oerjan> int-e: ^
04:37:37 <int-e> they have not even published today's GG properly yet
04:37:41 <int-e> wtf :P
04:37:46 <oerjan> oh
04:37:49 <int-e> (Yes I know I can edit the URL)
04:38:02 <oerjan> er i didn't link today's.
04:38:33 <oerjan> oh.
04:38:53 <oerjan> well i don't know what you mean i clicked my usual link to go there and it worked.
04:39:27 <int-e> I go to my bookmark and check the '>' link
04:42:34 <int-e> which apparently is lagging behind the "today's comic" stuff. weird
04:42:47 <oerjan> ah
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05:38:20 <nakilon> there should be a pastebin for colorized text
05:38:45 <nakilon> I always install the colorised log plugin to Jenkins
05:39:10 <nakilon> I wish I paste text that has been formatted with colors or boldness
05:39:21 <nakilon> * I wish I could
05:41:05 <nakilon> actually maybe some pastebins accept standard terminal colors via API
05:41:30 <nakilon> so it would be possible to make some proxy website, maybe even in pure JS
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06:53:56 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kGuN8WIGNc at some point in history for no reason at all, someone flipped all the letters
07:02:02 <nakilon> cool visualisation
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10:23:42 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+301) add later document later
10:24:08 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87397&oldid=87396 * YamTokTpaFa * (+41)
10:24:19 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87398&oldid=87397 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1)
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10:32:57 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87399&oldid=87398 * YamTokTpaFa * (+289) Can anyone help me translate blogs
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11:00:41 <Melvar> <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kGuN8WIGNc at some point in history for no reason at all, someone flipped all the letters – I’m pretty sure the reason for that was that during the transition from writing RTL to writing LTR they always kept the letters facing in the direction of writing.
11:04:52 <Melvar> (IIRC at some point sometimes they’d write switching direction every line (boustrophedon), so that you didn’t have to scan back to get to the start of the next line, and in that case also the letters would face in the direction of writing for each individual line.)
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11:42:22 <nakilon> imagine writing books in befunge in all 4 letters
11:43:42 <nakilon> and sometimes executing "p" command to fill the gaps for future plot twists and past misteries
13:14:09 <esolangs> [[Pefunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87400&oldid=87399 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* Links */ Cat
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13:42:32 <esolangs> [[Dual tape]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87401&oldid=87392 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Cats
13:43:34 <esolangs> [[Dual tape ez]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87402&oldid=87394 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Cat
13:45:59 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87403&oldid=87299 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+79) Add 5 languages
13:47:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Esolang:Gdelfuck]] to [[Gdelfuck]]: Remove NS
13:47:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * PythonshellDebugwindow * moved [[Esolang talk:Gdelfuck]] to [[Talk:Gdelfuck]]: Remove NS
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13:57:32 <esolangs> [[ZZZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87408&oldid=41112 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+40) Link to seemingly broken compiler (still better than nothing)
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14:24:15 <b_jonas> Melvar: that seems to happen only some of the time. almost all Chinese and Japanese characters are written exactly the same orientation whether it's written left to right or right to left, horizontally or vertically. I believe the only counterexamples are some punctuation like dot and comma and parenthesis and quotation signs, as well as a few that change in horizontal vs vertical orientation but don't
14:24:21 <b_jonas> flip, namely the dakuten and possibly the Japanese vertical repeat mark
14:24:59 <b_jonas> no style of digits flip in left to right latin/cyrillic text versus right to left hebrew/arabic/persian text
14:25:55 <b_jonas> some punctuation like parenthesis and question mark do sometimes flip between these, but they are also used differently in different languages
14:26:03 <Melvar> Yes, I was replying here to the video which is about the development of the Latin alphabet – this flipping happed specifically in one of its precursors.
14:27:21 <b_jonas> that said, it is true that boustrophedon inscriptions in phoenician script did flip letters, see eg. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki?curid=66649930
14:27:44 <b_jonas> but wasn't Phoenician written left to right from the start, when it wasn't boustrophedon?
14:28:40 <b_jonas> here'sa better flipping boustrophedon example: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gortys_law_inscription.jpg
14:28:40 <Melvar> Wikipedia says Phoenician was RTL.
14:28:51 <b_jonas> this one is actually in greek script
14:31:15 <b_jonas> yeah, it looks like you're right, phoenician was written right to left, and later flipped to greek
14:31:31 <Melvar> So, my understanding is Phoenician started mostly RTL, some boustrophedon, then when Greeks adapted their alphabet, they also used boustrophedon in stone inscriptions, but eventually settled into using mostly LTR as time went on, which resulted in the final form of the letters being flipped from how they started out in Phoenician.
14:32:04 <b_jonas> this wasn't obvious to me because I know very little about phoenician, other than through how the greek and hebrew scripts were developed from it (arabic/persian was too, but I know very little about that)
14:32:13 <int-e> Hmm does this have to do with engraving script in stone?
14:33:08 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't really know, but I don't see why engraving in stone vs slate or pottery would make a difference
14:33:23 <b_jonas> well ok, that's not true
14:33:39 <b_jonas> you can write into slate fast enough that it matters that you cover the letters with your hand
14:33:40 <int-e> I'm picturing chisel and hammer, so the writing hand becomes the left one
14:33:51 <Melvar> I have no clue as to the pressures of stone inscription specifically, except for an unsubstantiated claim I heard once that a right-handed person has an easier time carving RTL.
14:34:35 <int-e> And you're probably better off working towards the blank end... so swinging from the right means pushing to the left is preferable? I don't know, obviously.
14:35:06 <Melvar> (Which like, makes some amount of sense, exactly that way, but no citation attached.)
14:37:01 <Melvar> (Whereas writing in ink I would guess that, well, writing LTR with your right hand keeps your hand from smudging what you just wrote.)
14:37:46 <int-e> yeah, LTR or TTB make for ink
14:38:12 <b_jonas> oh by the way, as for ancient stuff. did you know that historically lions lived in southern europe, present turkey, the middle east, some of north africa, and india, but later got driven out from most of those places by humans? so ancient rome actually experienced lions first hand a lot, which is how they managed to spread the completely misguided idea that the lion is the king of the animals, which
14:38:18 <b_jonas> then got into children's fables. it's a pity, because the tiger is a much more worthy candidate for the same slot, only the ancient romans didn't meet tigers much, they only heard about them like many of those mythical beasts like phoenixes and elephants
14:41:12 <b_jonas> basically people kept believing the misguided ideas of ancient philosophers like Aristotle and Pliny the Elder up until the enlightenment, and I don't know who established the lion as the king of the animals, but that false idea got into the culture
14:41:34 <b_jonas> the Lionking movie should be based on tigers, not lions
14:41:47 <b_jonas> so do a large number of fables about animals
14:41:57 <Melvar> I’ve heard the amaZulu also consider the lion to be king, which is kind of relevant to Lion King.
14:42:02 <b_jonas> the sayings about lion's dens with footprints going in but not out
14:42:30 <b_jonas> Melvar: isn't that also because they weren't exposed to tigers, since tigers only lived in east Asia?
14:42:31 <Corbin> I hear that some languages around that time confused cats and dogs, even; our modern taxonomy didn't exist back then.
14:42:45 <int-e> what about lion-eating poets though
14:43:14 <Melvar> I mean, I presume they were not exposed to tigers either, yes.
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15:30:39 <b_jonas> `olist 1242
15:30:42 <HackEso> olist https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1242.html: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:38:57 <esolangs> [[K]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87409&oldid=51812 * Corbin * (+2) Improve disambiguation text; link to WP's article. This mirrors the link atop [[Q]].
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19:45:10 <Corbin> Ugh, I'm starting to think esoterically. I'm thinking about how to define Boolean algebras, and it's very tempting to try to use just NAND since it's a universal basis.
19:45:47 <Corbin> It's not bad, exactly, but I know that I'll just eventually define a richer basis later for speed. Maybe this is one of those "premature optimization" situations of which the legends speak.
19:47:54 <Corbin> Oh hey, WP's already got the entire discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_axioms_for_Boolean_algebra
19:54:26 <riv> definitely use NAND
19:55:01 <riv> those axioms are really interesting
19:55:12 <riv> I think the robbins one was unproved until computers did it
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20:19:45 <oerjan> b_jonas: the romans were definitely exposed to elephants. rather brutally so. see: punic wars.
20:20:56 <oerjan> (wikipedia has had a lot of punic war articles featured lately)
20:21:46 <oerjan> by phonecians, no less
20:21:59 <oerjan> argh
20:22:16 <oerjan> *oe
20:37:23 <oerjan> heh, that wikipedia logic article cites wolfram
20:53:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, elephant is probably a bad example
20:56:34 <oerjan> i found the basis sizes given in that article so inconsistent that I made a talk page comment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Minimal_axioms_for_Boolean_algebra#1-basis_or_2-basis?
20:57:20 <oerjan> (hm some of your browser might leave out the final ? i guess)
20:57:22 <oerjan> *+s
23:50:45 <esolangs> [[User:Ch44d]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87410&oldid=87395 * Ch44d * (+21) add category
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02:21:45 <zzo38> Do you have any English documentation of TRON Application Databus file format?
03:38:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * KatrinaKitten * New user account
03:52:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87411&oldid=87356 * KatrinaKitten * (+399)
03:53:40 <esolangs> [[MagiStack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87412&oldid=67529 * KatrinaKitten * (+14)
03:56:35 <esolangs> [[Roadrunner]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87413&oldid=79552 * KatrinaKitten * (+24) Update author name, as she (me) is transgender
04:07:40 <esolangs> [[User:KatrinaKitten]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87414 * KatrinaKitten * (+525) Created page with "Katrina Scialdone is an American freelance programmer who has been creating esolangs sporadically for the better part of a decade. She is a transgender woman, and has put her..."
04:08:25 <esolangs> [[Subterra]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87415&oldid=56188 * KatrinaKitten * (+52) Add author credit
04:12:25 <esolangs> [[User:KatrinaKitten]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87416&oldid=87414 * KatrinaKitten * (+21) Categorize page
04:36:48 <esolangs> [[LispNTI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87417 * KatrinaKitten * (+626) Created page with "LispNTI (an acronym meaning "Listen, It's Shit, Please Never Try It") is a minimal Lisp-like language created by [[User:KatrinaKitten|Katrina Scialdone]]. The language's prima..."
04:37:54 <esolangs> [[LispNTI]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87418&oldid=87417 * KatrinaKitten * (-28) Remove from joke languages category
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04:38:51 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87419&oldid=87403 * KatrinaKitten * (+14) Add LispNTI
04:39:10 <esolangs> [[User:KatrinaKitten]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87420&oldid=87416 * KatrinaKitten * (+14)
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04:56:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87421&oldid=87278 * KakkoiiChris * (-71) /* Numbers */ Removed L literal
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08:36:07 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87422&oldid=23974 * YamTokTpaFa * (+218)
08:36:21 <esolangs> [[Talk:Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87423&oldid=87422 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0)
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12:03:18 <nakilon> heh, I'm remembering a thing from a childhood'
12:05:47 <nakilon> I was like 8, it was spring or autumn1 week long school spring break; we were told to read something in English and write down all the words and their translations that we've learned, like a little dictionary (later we were told to do such all the time)
12:07:19 <nakilon> so I took a new notebook, started making the list, finding translations in the real dictionary, and since all dictionaries provide a transcription I decided I have to write it too
12:08:10 <nakilon> but we were not taught yet how to read it and my parents didn't know English, so I came up with my own transcription, with some weird symbols that only I knew how to read
12:09:23 <nakilon> then back in school it appeared that we were not really supposed to write down the transcriptions, so I thought that "I did something wrong" and I threw it away ..(
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13:49:07 <impomatic> Has anyone seen a PDF of "Computer Architecture: A Minimalist Perspective" available online? It's about OISC.
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17:23:40 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87424 * PixelatedStarfish * (+431) Created page with "'''Broken Calculator''' is a programming language created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] that is designed such that a program has a random chance of crashing on a given line of..."
17:24:33 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87425&oldid=87424 * PixelatedStarfish * (+67)
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17:24:46 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Noreddots.png]]"
17:31:21 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87427&oldid=87425 * PixelatedStarfish * (+84)
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17:42:14 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87429&oldid=87428 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34)
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18:57:12 <riv> http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachumd/papers/2D.pdf
18:58:20 <Corbin> Thanks, pushed to stack.
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20:40:50 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87431&oldid=87430 * PixelatedStarfish * (+344)
20:41:26 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87432&oldid=87431 * PixelatedStarfish * (+14)
20:42:58 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87433&oldid=87432 * PixelatedStarfish * (+82)
21:10:50 <esolangs> [[Category:Unimplemented]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87434&oldid=33983 * Corbin * (+29) Specify which category should be used for implemented languages.
21:12:14 <riv> https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2021/08/19/undecidable-translational-tilings-with-only-two-tiles-or-one-nonabelian-tile/ !!!
21:13:50 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87435&oldid=87265 * Corbin * (+2176) Link to reference implementation and explain how to use it.
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02:07:00 <esolangs> [[Scroll]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87436 * WreckingGames * (+1068) Created page with "'''Scroll''' is an esolang created by [[User|WreckingGames]]. it was made for no reason. it uses a string for data. == Commands == {| class="wikitable" |+ |- ! Command !! Ac..."
02:36:31 <Corbin> b_jonas: TIL about "primitive recursive functionals". The strength of many systems that I'd thought was PR-complete is actually something a little better. The Complexity Zoo doesn't appear to have an entry for this class, and I don't know what its standard name is.
02:36:49 <Corbin> I'll add this information to the wiki as soon as I understand it and have good sources to cite.
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03:14:01 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87437&oldid=87433 * PixelatedStarfish * (+88) /* Hello World */
03:15:43 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87438&oldid=87437 * PixelatedStarfish * (+57) /* Truth Machine */
03:20:20 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87439&oldid=87438 * PixelatedStarfish * (+211) /* Operations */
03:20:39 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87440&oldid=87439 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Operations */
03:20:55 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87441&oldid=87440 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Operations */
03:25:46 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87442&oldid=87441 * PixelatedStarfish * (+324) /* Operations */
03:26:49 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87443&oldid=87442 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27) /* Instructions */
03:26:58 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87444&oldid=87443 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Instructions */
03:27:37 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87445&oldid=87444 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* Memory */
03:28:04 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87446&oldid=87445 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15) /* Memory */
03:28:24 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87447&oldid=87446 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Memory */
03:35:33 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87448&oldid=87447 * PixelatedStarfish * (+392) /* Cell Access Operation */
03:36:05 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87449&oldid=87448 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Cell Access Operation */
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03:36:34 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87450&oldid=87449 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Cell Access Operation */
03:40:46 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87451&oldid=87450 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Instructions */
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08:30:12 <esolangs> [[Gammaplex]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87452&oldid=12486 * Ais523 * (+13) /* External resources */ update the Esoteric File Archive link to a mirror that works (the original has been dead for a while now)
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09:15:05 <nakilon> I wish there was a git blame for wiki articles
09:19:45 <nakilon> this thing kinda solved what I needed https://webapps.stackexchange.com/a/35914/4432
09:20:02 <nakilon> you enter the substring and it has found where it was added
09:57:36 <nakilon> just realised that my PCBR thing is similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_sorting in the way that 1. it gives an assumption that item1 > item2 even if those particular items could not be compared to each other
09:58:27 <nakilon> and 2. that the exact outpur is not fully determined, and in case of PCBR it's a sorted list of unsorted sublists
09:59:17 <nakilon> the more data you provide the smaller the sublists so the sorting ("ranking" in terms of the PCBR name) is more precise
10:00:17 <nakilon> also because of that the exact output per-sublist items order is defined by input order
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10:40:09 <nakilon> actually I have a feeling that PCBR is effectively the same as topological sorting but it does not need a graph as input -- it builds it implicitely by doing the O(n^n) comparisons
10:43:50 <nakilon> if they appear to be the same thing then the whole concept evolves to a statement that "topological sorting is just a way to sort barealy comparable things resistant to space deformations"
10:44:14 <nakilon> that might be probably already said by someone somewhere
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11:14:22 <nakilon> oh, unlike classical topo sort the PCBR allows disconnected components
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11:53:38 <hanif> Corbin: are primitive recursive functionals really more powerful than PR?
11:55:07 <hanif> huh looks like there may be something on the talk page regarding this under §higher-type computability
12:00:19 <hanif> "A primitive functional of type 1→1 does not just take primitive recursive functionals as arguments."
12:38:10 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Extramoose * New user account
12:43:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Danielle * New user account
12:53:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87453&oldid=87411 * Danielle * (+447)
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13:13:12 <Corbin> hanif: I'm still doing research, but it is claimed that the Ackermann function is a member of one of these higher types. This would indeed make it more powerful than primitive recursion.
13:14:29 <hanif> ah i see
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17:38:04 <zzo38> I thought to use topological sorting for fossil too, where cards that reference other artifacts will be the edges (to make a cycle would require attacking MD5 and SHA-1 at the same time), and using the D cards as the secondary sorting (with some kind of third (and possibly also fourth) sorting if the D cards are the same or are absent).
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18:20:14 <esolangs> [[Blarb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87454&oldid=79809 * Elimirks * (+8130) Import the contents of the readme
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20:13:12 <nakilon> https://github.com/ivanreese/visual-programming-codex/blob/main/implementations.md
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20:32:18 <esolangs> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87455&oldid=80718 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-35) Update /* BNF */
22:04:55 <riv> i did not know about unicode Tag sequences
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23:09:12 <esolangs> [[FROM HERE TO THERE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87456&oldid=87455 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-172) /* Computational class */ Unknown
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07:53:44 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Whirlpool-Programmer * New user account
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08:14:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87457&oldid=87453 * Whirlpool-Programmer * (+402)
08:14:48 <esolangs> [[User:Whirlpool-programmer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87458 * Whirlpool-Programmer * (+4) Created page with "Hehe"
08:14:59 <esolangs> [[BinPython]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87459 * Whirlpool-Programmer * (+835) Created page with "== BinPython == The name tells it all.. Binary-Python === A language which is indeed a brother of python, but in BINARY! === There is one Windows executable to run Binpytho..."
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08:27:19 <esolangs> [[BinPython]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87460&oldid=87459 * Whirlpool-Programmer * (+12)
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11:12:06 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87461&oldid=86848 * Blue screen of life * (+163) Added Befunge-98 interpreter
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13:24:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87462&oldid=87419 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+16) /* B */ BinPython
13:48:32 <esolangs> [[BinPython]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87463&oldid=87460 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+577) Cats, conversion
13:48:50 <esolangs> [[BinPython]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87464&oldid=87463 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-1) /* Let's Teach you some BinPythoning.. */ m
13:51:23 <esolangs> [[Talk:BinPython]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+226) /* Windows executable */ new section
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17:19:31 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87466&oldid=87451 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Hello World */
17:21:22 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87467&oldid=87466 * PixelatedStarfish * (+92) /* Truth Machine */
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18:14:05 <kciN> Hey, guys! Where can I find more information about jot? I'm trying desperately to google, but the only link I find is the one wiki already links to.
18:17:57 <kciN> Also, what are similar languages to it, (excluding iota and zot) and why is zot not listed in turing tarpits?
18:18:24 <kciN> oops, it is, didn't see the next page link.
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18:37:07 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87468&oldid=87203 * Grs * (-1) Updated d to implementation
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20:02:57 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87469&oldid=87468 * Grs * (-39) Removed not everything in it&JavaScript
20:04:31 <Corbin> Hm, I hope kciN found the WP page on Iota and Jot, because it's actually pretty good. I'll add that now, since we don't have links.
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22:57:43 <esolangs> [[Albabet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87470&oldid=82975 * Threesodas * (+110)
22:58:28 <esolangs> [[Albabet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87471&oldid=87470 * Threesodas * (+5)
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23:16:11 <esolangs> [[Iota]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87472&oldid=79342 * Corbin * (+30) /* External resources */ Add link to WP.
23:16:48 <esolangs> [[Jot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87473&oldid=79341 * Corbin * (+29) /* External resources */ Add link to WP.
23:17:29 <esolangs> [[Zot]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87474&oldid=79343 * Corbin * (+29) Add link to WP.
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00:13:13 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87475&oldid=87467 * PixelatedStarfish * (-85)
00:49:49 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87476&oldid=87475 * PixelatedStarfish * (+130)
00:50:05 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87477&oldid=87476 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Memory */
00:52:07 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87478&oldid=87477 * PixelatedStarfish * (+72) /* Broken Truth Machine */
00:52:23 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87479&oldid=87478 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Accumulator Test */
00:54:52 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87480&oldid=87479 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71)
00:56:26 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87481&oldid=87480 * PixelatedStarfish * (+46)
00:56:42 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87482&oldid=87481 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2)
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01:12:27 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87483&oldid=87482 * PixelatedStarfish * (+434) /* Grammar */
01:13:05 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87484&oldid=87483 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Grammar */
01:13:37 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87485&oldid=87484 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar */
01:13:51 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87486&oldid=87485 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Grammar */
01:15:15 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87487&oldid=87486 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* Grammar */
01:16:50 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87488&oldid=87487 * PixelatedStarfish * (+30) /* Syntax */
01:17:29 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87489&oldid=87488 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Broken Truth Machine */
01:17:42 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87490&oldid=87489 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Broken Hello World */
01:18:10 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87491&oldid=87490 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Accumulator Test */
01:18:20 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87492&oldid=87491 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Accumulator Test */
01:19:21 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87493&oldid=87492 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
01:20:09 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87494&oldid=87493 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Instructions */
01:20:36 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87495&oldid=87494 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Grammar in EBNF */
02:05:45 <oerjan> . o O ( broken preview button )
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04:48:13 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87496&oldid=87390 * Heptor * (+27)
04:48:44 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87497&oldid=87496 * Heptor * (-137) /* Implementations */
04:49:31 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87498&oldid=87497 * Heptor * (+1) /* Implementation notes */
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04:51:56 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87499&oldid=87498 * Heptor * (+54) /* Syntax */
04:53:04 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87500&oldid=87499 * Heptor * (-825) /* Implementation notes */
04:53:55 <esolangs> [[Matrixfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87501&oldid=87500 * Heptor * (+111) /* Implementation notes */
04:58:22 <esolangs> [[User:Heptor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87502 * Heptor * (+62) Created page with "hello i exist if you need me talk to me on discord: @balt#6423"
04:58:31 <esolangs> [[User:Heptor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87503&oldid=87502 * Heptor * (+1)
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08:33:25 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * UiOpL4504 * New user account
08:37:00 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87504&oldid=87457 * UiOpL4504 * (+76)
08:37:46 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87505&oldid=87504 * UiOpL4504 * (+79)
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12:12:34 <arseniiv> `? password
12:12:37 <HackEso> The password of the month is too long for this irc message
12:13:03 <arseniiv> I seem to be back if someone wondered!
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13:11:09 <riv> wb!
13:11:32 <riv> it has been quiet here
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17:54:32 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Dominicentek * uploaded "[[File:Keyboardsmash numbers.png]]"
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18:00:38 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87507&oldid=87495 * PixelatedStarfish * (+180) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:01:30 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87508&oldid=87507 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:02:58 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87509&oldid=87508 * PixelatedStarfish * (+51) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:03:45 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87510&oldid=87509 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:06:27 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87511&oldid=87510 * PixelatedStarfish * (-27) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:07:02 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87512&oldid=87511 * PixelatedStarfish * (-12) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:10:34 <Corbin> Hm. Is it just me, or could Broken Calculator be generalized? It doesn't seem like the underlying deterministic language has constructs which influence crash probability.
18:15:55 <ais523> it might be interesting to generalize it in a way where you could reduce crash probability rapidly enough that it didn't reach 1 in the limit
18:16:08 <Corbin> Ha, yeah, thinking the same thing.
18:19:00 * APic grins magically.
18:21:57 <b_jonas> a magical grin? like that of a Cheshire caRT?
18:21:59 <b_jonas> a magical grin? like that of a Cheshire cat?
18:28:07 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87513&oldid=87512 * PixelatedStarfish * (+477) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:29:30 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87514&oldid=87513 * PixelatedStarfish * (+56) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:30:10 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87515&oldid=87514 * PixelatedStarfish * (-215) /* Crash Probability Formula */
18:34:56 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87516&oldid=87515 * PixelatedStarfish * (+141) /* Crash Probability Formula */
19:12:14 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87517&oldid=87516 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1322)
19:12:52 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87518&oldid=87517 * PixelatedStarfish * (-3) /* Instructions */
19:14:02 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87519&oldid=87518 * PixelatedStarfish * (-151)
19:14:36 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87520&oldid=87519 * PixelatedStarfish * (+42) /* External Links */
19:15:24 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87521&oldid=87520 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2)
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19:16:17 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87522&oldid=87521 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
19:17:45 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87523&oldid=87141 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29) /* Esolangs */
19:20:07 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87524&oldid=87523 * PixelatedStarfish * (+149) /* Broken Calculator */
19:21:30 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87525&oldid=87522 * PixelatedStarfish * (+24) /* External Links */
19:21:40 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87526&oldid=87525 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
19:21:47 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87527&oldid=87526 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
19:22:49 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87528&oldid=87527 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* External Links */
19:22:57 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87529&oldid=87528 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
19:23:05 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87530&oldid=87529 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
19:23:34 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87531&oldid=87530 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
19:25:23 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87532&oldid=87357 * PixelatedStarfish * (+164) /* BRASCA */
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19:50:30 <Corbin> What's the proper register for talking about this community? I wanted to say something like "our definition contrasts with the other wiki"; how should I say "our" and "the other wiki"?
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19:54:24 <zzo38> I should think that you should mention what other wiki it is.
19:57:36 <Corbin> It's not always English Wikipedia? Which other wikis do we have configured? I'm happy to learn; I'm used to communities where "the other wiki" is always WP.
20:00:08 <myname> why not just name it wikipedia? it's clearer and shorter
20:05:48 <int-e> yeah, esowiki and wikipedia
20:06:19 <int-e> This isn't a Voldemort situation.
20:07:31 <riv> lol
20:09:09 <int-e> (Which may be the case for some wikis that only exist because Wikipedia deletes the contest for lack of relevance... I think we're in agreement that esoteric programming languages are a fringe topic.)
20:09:18 <int-e> contest -> contents
20:11:13 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87533&oldid=87187 * Dominicentek * (-39)
20:12:44 <Corbin> I'm an inclusionist, so I don't really like that way of thinking about things. I think that wiki federation is more about diffusion of power and responsibility, since some topics can require specialized moderation approaches.
20:12:46 <int-e> I guess we do say "the wiki" for esowiki here.
20:14:13 <myname> you don't like calling things by their name?
20:15:20 <Corbin> No, I mean that I disagree with the idea that it's okay for WP to delete lots of stuff, and that fringe wikis should therefore exist.
20:15:34 <Corbin> I have no problem talking about things using commonly-accepted names. I'm asking what those names are!
20:16:16 <int-e> WP wants to be an online encyclopedia with trustworthy contents. You can't have that and free for all topic selection. Which is fine to me, there's plenty of other venues. So... definitely not my fight.
20:17:16 <Koen__> yeah, I don't want a disambiguation page on wikipedia for "the tin can" - "the tin can is an item that can be picked up in the kitchen of the restaurant in level 54 of some obscure video game"
20:17:54 <Koen__> but if there's a thisobscurevideogame.wiki.org then a "tin can_(item)" page is welcome
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20:22:32 <Corbin> Going to be polite and assume that y'all have not actually seen how deletionism acts on WP. It's a censorship mechanism used by patrician administrators to avoid culturally-inconvenient topics at best, and to remove entire subcultures at worst.
20:22:58 <Corbin> NGL, your attitudes kind of destroyed my gumption. I'm going to go get some pizza and try again later.
20:25:35 <int-e> ?!
20:25:35 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
20:26:03 <int-e> I guess I'm sorry for not sharing your hostility towards Wikipedia?! This took a really strange turn...
20:31:11 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87534&oldid=87531 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43) /* External Links */
20:31:33 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87535&oldid=87534 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* External Links */
20:31:43 <ais523> int-e: Esolang is at least partially a method of giving somewhere to put esolang articles that are unacceptable for Wikipedia
20:32:11 <ais523> this arrangement seems, in practice, to be beneficial to everyone involved (Esolang, Wikipedia, and people interested in the language)
20:34:14 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87536&oldid=87535 * PixelatedStarfish * (+353)
20:36:12 <int-e> Heh I didn't even know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language ...obviously one could argue at length about which languages should have the privilege of being listed there
20:37:39 <int-e> But it has a pretty good list of early and influential ones, I think.
20:42:18 <int-e> ais523: Anyway, I agree that it's a good arrangement, and my impression is that for the most part, people are happy with it. *shrugs*
20:43:52 <nakilon> this page is awful in so many ways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages_by_type
20:44:35 <myname> "curly-bracked languages" :D
20:49:34 <b_jonas> it's a good arrangement, but I'm also glad that at least a few occasionally chunks of junk get deleted from the esowiki too. I just looked up one of the notorious ones that was there for at least a year, and I'm delighted to see it gone.
20:50:18 <myname> trivial brainfuck substitutes?
20:50:22 <b_jonas> but the standard is very low
20:50:41 <b_jonas> myname: no no, it has to be actively bad to get deleted, not just useless and uninspired
20:55:43 <nakilon> heh, category Uninspired language
20:58:56 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_BASIC
21:01:27 <riv> https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2021/08/19/undecidable-translational-tilings-with-only-two-tiles-or-one-nonabelian-tile/ I probably linked this already
21:03:02 <nakilon> if I take some another language with long arithmetics to implement RASEL, which one should I choose?
21:03:12 <nakilon> looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_arbitrary-precision_arithmetic_software
21:04:10 <nakilon> didn't know there are so many llbs for c/c++
21:04:23 <b_jonas> nakilon: what is your goal with the implementation? do you wish it to be fast, or portable and easy to distribute?
21:05:16 <nakilon> b_jonas the goal is speed
21:05:42 <b_jonas> speed for usually large numbers, or speed for when the numbers are usually small?
21:05:43 <nakilon> for distribution ruby gem is already good enough
21:05:55 <nakilon> hm
21:06:01 <nakilon> when small
21:08:02 <b_jonas> for large numbers, http://mpir.org/ is usually the best (it's forked from GMP and gives mostly the same interface), but its docs recommend you to wrap around it if your numbers are usually small (the original purpose was probably at least partly cryptography, which explains optimizing over large fixed size numbers); alternatives include https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/release/libs/multiprecision/ which
21:08:08 <b_jonas> has three backends including GMP, https://www.libtom.net/ which is educational and not too optimized, and https://bellard.org/softfp/ which is Fabrice Bellard's so you know what to expect
21:09:38 <b_jonas> oh, and there's also GP/PARI's library I think, plus many language interpreters including Python and Ruby and ghc (for Haskell) come with a bignum library
21:11:38 <b_jonas> more or less every high level language has one thrown in these days, though of course sometimes they use one of the previous ones as a backend
21:16:02 <nakilon> I'm thinking about Crystal, C, C#, Zig
21:16:57 <b_jonas> I have no idea what Crystal is
21:18:27 <nakilon> it's like Ruby but LLVM
21:18:28 <b_jonas> GMP has at least one wrapper to just about any language you can think of from its native C interface, sometimes multiple wrappers
21:18:58 <nakilon> it can be as fast as C basically
21:19:33 <nakilon> the difference from Ruby is that you have to declare types ahead, at least it was like that some years ago
21:20:01 <b_jonas> in what way is it like Ruby?
21:20:37 <nakilon> it was the initial idea to have the same syntax
21:22:24 <b_jonas> weird
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21:33:05 <nakilon> or maybe I should try truffleruby first if it's already usable enough
21:33:25 <b_jonas> berry in August? no way. wait for next spring or summer.
21:34:02 <nakilon> https://github.com/kostya/benchmarks
21:41:16 <ais523> I think most recent practical languages have bignum ability in their standard library or their package manager, although some of the bignum packages are of dubious quality (not in terms of accuracy, but in terms of performance or features)
21:43:24 <b_jonas> well yes, if you include package manager, you always find mostly bad packages
21:44:05 <nakilon> "Colobot: Gold Edition - alpha 0.2.0 released yesterday"
21:44:26 <b_jonas> the hard part is finding the good packages, and knowing when to give up and just write your own
21:52:04 <b_jonas> (and by write your own, I mean write your own wrapper around an existing good quality library obviously, not invent your own wheel for every language)
22:01:15 <ais523> well, integrating well with the language's type system is often a major feature for me
22:01:18 <ais523> and that can be hard to wrap
22:02:01 <ais523> one of my major concerns about Rust's pure-Rust bignum package, apart from the size of bignum objects, is that it's bad at mixing signed bigints and unsigned bigints
22:02:22 <b_jonas> yes, it varies a lot
22:02:44 <b_jonas> some libraries are trivial to wrap, others are almost impossible
22:03:22 <b_jonas> and yes, it depends on the language too
22:06:10 <b_jonas> I wonder if the rust type system is now strong enough that you could write a library like eigen (which is in C++) in it, but there's no way you can just do a straightforward port
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22:56:54 <Corbin> [[Special:Interwiki]] seems disabled somehow? Is there a public list of interwiki prefixes?
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23:00:08 <ais523> it might just not be installed?
23:00:12 <b_jonas> Corbin: https://esolangs.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=info&meta=siteinfo&format=xmlfm&siprop=general|namespaces|namespacealiases|interwikimap|specialpagealiases|magicwords
23:00:16 <ais523> I think we use the default MediaWiki list of interwiki prefixes, though
23:00:25 <ais523> of which wikipedia: is the only one people use in practice
23:01:04 <ais523> also, that URL for OEIS looks really odd
23:01:46 <shachaf> Are there any interesting distributed systems sorts of esolangs?
23:01:59 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=info&meta=siteinfo&format=xmlfm&siprop=interwikimap should be a list of just the interwikis
23:03:11 <ais523> I think there may be some languages designed for programming games that run in a distributed sort of way
23:03:23 <Corbin> b_jonas, ais523: Impressive technique. Bookmarked, thanks.
23:03:43 <ais523> but I can't think of much that works in a delay-insensitive way (which is normally important for distributed programming)
23:04:08 <ais523> cellular automata are pretty similar to distributed systems, but they typically rely on lock-step to work correctly
23:04:57 <ais523> incidentally, I was once designing a version of cyclic tag with multiple queues, which effectively ran on different threads, but never got around to finishing it – that was fairly similar to a distributed system
23:05:03 <ais523> (it was intended to compile into something, but I forget what)
23:05:21 <esolangs> [[Concatenative language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87537 * Corbin * (+1375) Break ground on an important esolang concept which is poorly-handled by existing wikis.
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23:06:56 <ais523> Corbin: I agree we need an article about that, but what you've written so far isn't good at expressing the concept – the example isn't even concatentative
23:07:07 <ais523> the important definition is that program concatenation is function composition
23:07:45 <ais523> what you're writing about is just composability, which is also important, but there are ways to do that other than being concatenative
23:09:07 <ais523> hmm, that concatenative wiki is missing Underload, so I'm not sure I can take it seriously [add appropriate emoticon here, I'm not sure which one to use offhand but this sentence feels like it needs one]
23:12:54 <Corbin> ais523: Please be patient; I am writing each section one-at-a-time because I don't like losing lots of progress.
23:13:16 <Corbin> The important definition is the Von Thun one, with monoid homomorphisms, but we have to work up to that.
23:14:03 <ais523> ah, fair enough
23:14:07 <ais523> maybe I'd rename "introduction" to "background"
23:15:34 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, I mean asynchronous systems in particular.
23:15:59 <Corbin> Currently working on "classical theory". After that is a yet-untitled section on Von Thun's results, but gently enough to not make people drown in category theory. Finally, I want "modern generalizations" so that I can document interesting stuff unique to our study, like 2D langs.
23:15:59 <shachaf> Including individual node failures and so on.
23:16:55 <ais523> I think that's a niche enough area that either a) there are no esolangs in that area, or b) every language in that area is automatically an esolang
23:16:59 <ais523> and I'm not entirely sure which
23:17:07 <Corbin> ais523: Selfishly, I want at least enough on this page so that I could mindlessly tell you whether [[Cammy]] is concatenative.
23:17:09 <keegan> I went to a neighborhood free book giveaway yesterday and there was a book about categorical type theory
23:17:17 <keegan> was slightly surprised but not that surprised, this is san francisco
23:17:25 <keegan> i didn't grab it though
23:17:42 <keegan> i got a book about digital filter design which was sadly lacking the included 5.25" diskette with source code
23:17:55 <keegan> now i'll have to type it in from the book
23:18:00 <shachaf> Well, I'd be interested in non-esolangs in that area too, I guess!
23:18:15 <b_jonas> "the important definition is that program concatenation is function composition" hmm. is there a terminology for languages where if you concatenate two programs, then the resuling program performs all the side effects (including interactive IO) of the first one, then of the second one, like eg. brainfuck where the tape is not guaranteed to be initialized to zeros?
23:19:00 <Corbin> There's heavyweight terminology, invoking what's known as "native type theory", but if I have to use that then I've probably failed.
23:19:32 <ais523> shachaf: my previous job was in that area, but it was mostly in terms of implementing things at the library level, and I didn't learn much in terms of languages for the purpose (we were using general-purpose languages, not languages designed for distributed programming)
23:19:32 <b_jonas> I'm mostly asking because Consumer society programs can be concatenated like that
23:20:24 <ais523> b_jonas: I think most imperative languages allow that sort of program concatenation (barring questions about when the main program runs), although it probably isn't unique to imperative languages
23:21:20 <ais523> the company's aim/thesis/goal was to prove that a special language wasn't necessary for that sort of thing, so we didn't spend that much effort on looking for one
23:21:25 <shachaf> ais523: What sorts of things in that area?
23:21:54 <ais523> I was implementing the runtime support to allow programs to transparently access data on other machines, call stacks to span multiple machines, etc.
23:22:08 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, many imperative languages allow that, though C doesn't
23:22:12 <shachaf> Oh, I see, running unmodified programs.
23:22:15 <shachaf> That sounds tricky.
23:22:16 <ais523> right
23:23:10 <ais523> hmm, are there languages which let you define functions multiple times and the definitions get concatenated? that seems like it might be useful for literate programming
23:23:25 <ais523> Prolog's syntax and semantics would both let you do that, except that there's a specific rule that you aren't allowed to
23:23:41 <ais523> (I think there might be a pragma to allow it?)
23:23:51 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm
23:24:09 <b_jonas> interesting idea
23:24:15 <b_jonas> Consumer Society can't allow that
23:24:46 <b_jonas> but I think there must be some language (possibly esoteric) that's based on hooks or gosub-come-froms that might allow it
23:24:54 <b_jonas> what are those called? sub from?
23:25:05 <ais523> in INTERCAL, NEXT FROM, but I think it's a nonstandard name
23:25:07 <b_jonas> no, probably no
23:25:12 <ais523> if it were a standard name, it would need to be renamed
23:25:26 <shachaf> I'm more interested in programs and semantics that are suited for a distributed environment and take advantage of it than pretending it doesn't exist.
23:26:12 <ais523> also, if you have two NEXT FROMs aiming at the same line in INTERCAL, the two subroutines run in parallel (and if they both return, the subsequent code runs twice in parallel – this is arguably a bug)
23:27:03 <ais523> shachaf: I understand; unfortunately I'm not sure I can help because I don't have much experience in that direction, even though I was working in the field
23:27:21 <b_jonas> I think there might be some GUI widget libraries where if you register two callbacks to an event, both get called in sequence
23:27:23 <ais523> I vaguely remember various forms of calculus based on Greek letters other than lambda
23:27:45 <b_jonas> oh yeah, I know what I recall this from
23:28:04 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0-calculus for example
23:28:09 <ais523> maybe that would be a good starting point?
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23:28:34 <ais523> but, I don't think it's exactly what you're looking for
23:29:33 <ais523> b_jonas: I think Java works like that, but am not sure, they might run in parallel
23:29:34 <shachaf> One big difference between multithreading on one computer and distributed systems is that failures are expected in the latter case.
23:29:46 <shachaf> I think Pi-calculus types of things don't account for that too much.
23:30:04 <ais523> if you're using a sufficiently pure language, you can just retry
23:30:28 <shachaf> Well, you might want guarantees of systemwide progress even if any particular node fails.
23:30:32 <b_jonas> javascript's https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Promise can call multiple handlers
23:30:52 <b_jonas> you can register a handler, and if you register multiple, they're call called when the promise is fulfilled
23:33:55 <b_jonas> also https://nodejs.org/dist/latest-v16.x/docs/api/events.html#events_events can have multiple callbacks
23:34:46 <b_jonas> heck, atexit in C can register multiple functions and all of them get called one after the other
23:35:14 <b_jonas> but of course that's just one (or a few) stack of callbacks, not any number of user-defined functions behaving this way
23:35:27 <ais523> Prolog has both assert/assertz and asserta
23:36:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87538&oldid=87462 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* B */ Language
23:36:11 <ais523> and I think you can even inject cases into the middle of a predicate, although that involves more than a simple library predicate call
23:37:59 <b_jonas> yeah
23:44:16 <b_jonas> Mathematica and I think Maple allows you to define cases for a function in multiple different places of the source code with other definitions in between, the way that would be natural in prolog or perhaps in haskell but is not allowed. in all of these, cases will match by default so another definition won't be tried unless you specifically fail, but that's already true for prolog.
23:44:57 <b_jonas> normally the cases are distinguished by different patterns for their arguments, but the pattern matching is powerful enough to do anything including side effects of course
23:46:00 <ais523> hmm, that's an interesting point; I think Prolog's pattern matching does *not* allow side effects (or indeed function calls generally)
23:46:24 <ais523> IIRC Rust allows side effects in match guards but not on the patterns themselves
23:46:57 <ais523> although, pattern matching in Rust is a pain to define formally/comprehensively because the language allows insane definitions of ==
23:47:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but in prolog you can fail from the body
23:47:09 <b_jonas> I don't know if you can fail from the body of a Mathematica function
23:47:14 <b_jonas> you probably can
23:47:32 <ais523> right, I think that's why Prolog doesn't bother with function calls in patterns, because you can retroactively unmatch the pattern later on
23:47:58 <b_jonas> ais523: that's more like because prolog also doesn't bother with function calls in expressions
23:48:19 <keegan> wait, does Rust pattern matching invoke the overloaded ==?
23:48:25 <keegan> I thought it was only structural
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23:49:16 <ais523> keegan: it doesn't, but the semantics are designed such that you can't use it at the same time as an overloaded ==
23:49:17 <keegan> (plus boolean guards)
23:49:28 <ais523> to avoid confusion about whether it would invoke it or not
23:49:34 <keegan> what do you mean
23:49:45 <esolangs> [[Concatenative language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87539&oldid=87537 * Corbin * (+2145) Explain the classical and categorical theories.
23:49:52 <ais523> #[derive(Eq)] implements an unsafe trait that you can't safely implement any other way
23:49:56 <ais523> and pattern matching needs that trait to work
23:50:04 <b_jonas> ais523: but rust now has pattern guards as part of patterns now, don't they? I'm not quite sure, I don't follow what exactly they did there
23:50:13 <keegan> oh, weird
23:50:15 <keegan> that must be new-ish
23:50:41 <ais523> hmm, this is for matching constants only, it seems
23:50:55 <ais523> matching enum variants, etc., doesn't use Eq and you can use any enum you want
23:51:24 <ais523> https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/31434
23:52:10 <ais523> still unstable, so very new
23:52:20 <ais523> I have been learning Rust in a kind-of weird order, stumbling over parts of it, of various newness, at random
23:52:46 <keegan> ah
23:53:31 <b_jonas> no, I'm wrong. rust added *alternatives* in patterns, but match guards (which can contain arbitrary code to decide if the pattern matches) can still only go to top level, not into patterns
23:54:01 <ais523> I think right now, my primary languages for writing programs that are intended to do something are Rust and Perl
23:54:10 <ais523> (it used to be a mix of C and Perl, but Rust has displaced the C)
23:54:19 <Corbin> ais523: LMK how feel I could improve. I need to survey the various langs on our wiki which call themselves concatenative and see if there's anything notable that needs to be discussed or explained.
23:55:03 <ais523> I think it's probably worth discussing row polymorphism, but I'm not an expert on the subject
23:55:47 <ais523> (if I understand it correctly, and I might not, it's a way to have typed concatenative stack-based languages using functions that are polymorphic over the unexamined parts of the stack)
23:56:15 <ais523> although Wikipedia's definition implies it's more general than that, I first came across it in the concatenative contextt
23:56:52 <ais523> I think the page is in a usable, if somewhat, barebones state at the moment
23:56:57 <ais523> * usable, if somewhat barebones,
2021-08-23
00:00:46 <Corbin> Yeah, it's definitely skeletal.
00:01:06 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps one of the languages that are specialized for programming MUDs or text adventure games have all function definitions work in an event handler way that concatenates multiple handlers
00:01:40 <Corbin> Yes, row polymorphism is intimately connected to the typical stack-based Forth desendant. IIRC Factor's type system is effectively just higher-order row-polymorphic signatures.
00:05:32 <b_jonas> "skeletal" still reminds me of how Hollow Dogs the M:tG card still hasn't been errataed to have the Skeleton creature type
00:06:27 <b_jonas> give me my Phyrexian Zombie Skeleton Dogs already, Wizards
00:06:41 <b_jonas> (this line is to preempt any Changeling joke)
00:06:48 <zzo38> I mostly use C for my own programs (I dislike some of the features of some of the programming languages intended to be a replacement for C), but sometimes I will use PostScript, or others
00:07:15 <keegan> A hollow dog is never empty. It is filled with thirst for the hunt.
00:11:57 <esolangs> [[Category theory]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87540&oldid=74393 * Corbin * (+632) Give a couple ways to apply category theory to programming language theory.
00:20:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: I wonder what your opinion on zig is. it seems like it's trying to be for C what Rust is for C++, and I think it's doing that pretty well
00:21:00 <b_jonas> though I guess their selling point of trying to provide a sane (Zig AND C AND C++) compiler package for Windows isn't a selling point for you
00:22:42 <ais523> I guess my opinion is that making a better C is incredibly easy, the issue is trying to make a C that's better *enough* for people to use it
00:23:02 <ais523> for me, Rust is better by enough to be worth changing my main systems language
00:23:22 <b_jonas> ais523: and providing a sane compiler environment for Windows, which is something we're lacking right now, is a good way of doing that
00:23:42 <b_jonas> like, I download the package to get a C++ compiler for windows, and get curious what else is there
00:24:10 <b_jonas> it's like git, which provides a vim port and a terminal for windows, you install it, and wonder what the version control thing that the distribution is named of is about
00:24:10 <ais523> I normally use Strawberry Perl if I want a C compiler for Windows (there's one bundled in with it)
00:24:26 <b_jonas> ais523: does it have a C++ compiler?
00:24:31 <ais523> also I don't think that's what made git popular
00:24:35 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not sure, but probably
00:24:37 <b_jonas> also thanks for that recommendation, I might look at it
00:24:57 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it didn't. the Linux kernel versioned with it did, sadly
00:24:59 <ais523> it's basically just gcc with competent packaging
00:25:14 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and that's the hard part. Zig distributes a clang with competent packaging.
00:25:32 <ais523> I agree that competent packaging is the hard part, especially on Windows
00:25:36 <b_jonas> that's how you get a good C++ compiler, more so than trying to implement one from scratch
00:26:18 <b_jonas> there used to be https://www.msys2.org/ which provides a gcc, but it's not been updated for years now
00:28:12 <b_jonas> hehe, https://scryfall.com/card/ice/137/kjeldoran-dead was originally printed as a Dead, while https://scryfall.com/card/all/55b/lim-d%C3%BBls-high-guard as a Skeleton. they really didn't know how to use creature types back then.
00:28:21 <ais523> Windows is a moving target (although not to the extent Mac OS X is), it's a pain to keep things updated there
00:29:01 <b_jonas> yes, it's definitely not an easy task
00:29:14 <ais523> the situation with the standard libraries is especially disappointing
00:29:23 <b_jonas> (Dimir House Guard is a rare armored skeleton)
00:29:51 <ais523> (there's a libc bundled with Windows but it's nonstandard and your aren't officially supposed to use it; there are also libcs bundled with MSVC which are more standards-compliant, but are licensed in such a way that you can't use them as the libc for an open-source compiler)
00:30:29 <ais523> (and the raw system calls aren't supposed to be exposed to applications – although some applications are using them anyway, it seems – so writing your own libc from scratch is also very difficult)
00:32:14 <b_jonas> wait
00:32:26 <b_jonas> you can't use MSVC as the libc as an open-source compiler?
00:32:38 <b_jonas> as opposed to just with gcc because of gcc's GPL license or something?
00:33:04 <b_jonas> not even if you have to install the library separately, it's not distributed with the compiler toolkit?
00:34:07 <ais523> I forget the exact license terms, but I know they prevent that working somehow
00:34:15 <b_jonas> (not that I think GPL would forbid that, but just in case)
00:34:43 <b_jonas> I know MS has some licences where you can't redistribute the library or font, but if you download it directly from Microsoft, you can use it
00:36:01 <b_jonas> but that doesn't apply to the part of the library that wraps syscalls to Windows API calls, right? just the part that's trying to be a C standard library?
00:39:15 <ais523> this is horrible, I've been on Microsoft's website for about 10 minutes now and still can't find the EULA for these things
00:39:28 <ais523> I even found a download page, but the license isn't specified on the download page itself
00:40:06 <ais523> one of the pages I found suggested installing Visual Studio to view the license
00:40:59 <ais523> I found links to webpages that were supposed to contain the license terms, but they didn't
00:41:26 <ais523> also, they're the same library
00:42:34 <shachaf> ais523: I just want a "better C" that's better enough that I can use it.
00:43:13 <shachaf> Rust seems much more like "better C++" to me, and I that's not really the style of language I want.
00:44:13 <ais523> fair enough; I think that's a fair assessment of the language
00:44:24 <ais523> I would probably have been using C++ already if I thought it was better enough than C, but I didn't
00:47:47 <ais523> ooh, this is new: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/universal-crt-deployment?view=msvc-160
00:47:53 <ais523> Windows finally has a centralised C runtime!
00:48:55 <ais523> 2015, so more recently than I last looked at this nonsense
00:52:58 <b_jonas> ais523: what does "centralized C runtime" mean? I seem to recall they introduced an ABI stable between MSVC releases around that point
00:55:05 <ais523> b_jonas: the C runtime is installed with/by the OS, rather than being installed along with every C program you want to run on you rcomputer
00:55:47 <ais523> for a while, Windows was using a hybrid model in which the C runtime was installed by installers for the various C programs you installed on your computer, but into a location that Windows Update knew about, and it kept it updated once it was there
00:55:54 <ais523> but just having one copy that's kept updated by the OS makes a lot more sense
01:25:49 <zzo38> I think one of the worst things about C is the confusing syntax for types. Although, there are also many features that I like about C that the other ones are not doing.
01:26:53 <zzo38> One thing I like about C is the macros, and also that it doesn't use Unicode
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01:37:59 <shachaf> It had a secret mini-CRT for a long time, right?
01:38:18 <shachaf> Apparently since Windows 98 or so?
01:38:25 <shachaf> I mean msvcrt.dll.
01:38:54 <b_jonas> ais523: I thought that was always the model, but you didn't get a libc newer than the Windows version that way, while programs wanted to work on older versions of Windows, so they installed the libc anyway
01:39:36 <b_jonas> and since like Windows 7, Windows update installs future versions of the runtime too in updates
01:39:48 <ais523> shachaf: yes, it was used internally by the OS
01:39:52 <b_jonas> but this is just a vague impression, it's probably not accurate
01:40:11 <ais523> and was very similar to a libc, but had a few bizarre differences, just different enough to break C programs that weren't aware of them
01:40:32 <ais523> I think the most famous is snprintf returning 0 if the number of characters which would be printed were too long for the buffer
01:40:36 <ais523> or maybe -1
01:41:21 <ais523> somewhere I have an snprintf wrapper that allocated a larger buffer and tries again if snprintf returns an impossible value, so that it'll work with msvcrt.dll
01:41:52 <ais523> (obviously, having snprintf return the expected buffer length itself is much more useful…)
01:43:49 <b_jonas> whereas the MSVC library has a version that prints floating point numbers in a way that doesn't match C99 or gnu libc, and since implementing formatting floating point is so hard, a lot of programs use it as the backend for formatting floats, sometimes even with a fixup to print floating point numbers the usual way
01:44:08 <b_jonas> usual for C99 that is, Windows libc might have priority
01:44:54 <b_jonas> it's so odd, I wish the libc makers could cooperate to fix this somehow, like by introducing a low-level function that formats floats always in the unix/C99 way
01:45:07 <b_jonas> it doesn't even have to be a full printf function
01:45:07 <ais523> I think libc should be split into two parts
01:45:25 <ais523> one of which just does system calls / OS interaction with minimal logic (only just enough to smooth out differences between OSes)
01:45:30 <ais523> and the other part is platform-independent
01:45:43 <b_jonas> of course if they do it now, it will only get a use ten years later, but software developers don't have term limits and regular elections
01:45:59 <ais523> it's weird that if you want, say, a portable fopen(), you also need to pull in a strlen() too
01:46:53 <ais523> at a previous job, my boss asked me why his Haskell program was getting affected by libc buffering when it wasn't written in C
01:47:17 <ais523> I had to explain that most programming languages went via C to interface with the operating system because it's simpler than writing code to interface with every operating system yourself
01:47:18 <oerjan> . o O ( should software developers also be changed like diapers? )
01:47:31 <oerjan> (and politicians)
01:48:14 * oerjan gets a deja vu about ais523's last anecdote
01:48:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: do you mean changed that frequently, or changed when they stink, or treated as identical throwaway ones?
01:48:54 <keegan> Go is a notable exception
01:49:01 <oerjan> well for politicians, ALL OF THE ABOVE obviously
01:49:47 <keegan> also Rust makes it pretty easy to use a statically linked musl instead of system libc
01:50:08 <ais523> huh, I just realised that I don't know how stdbuf worked
01:50:26 <ais523> I assumed it did something to the file handle at the OS level, but that doesn't make sense because stdio buffering is a libc thing, not an OS thing
01:50:50 <oerjan> for developers, i may not have been entirely serious.
01:51:24 <keegan> huh i didn't know about stdbuf until just now
01:51:27 <ais523> I just looked at the source: it's an LD_PRELOAD trick
01:51:30 <keegan> i assume it... yeah
01:51:38 <ais523> so presumably it's replacing parts of stdio
01:51:50 <keegan> either shim the libc functions or just insert some code which calls whatever libc functions set the buffer mode
01:52:20 <keegan> NOTE: If COMMAND adjusts the buffering of its standard streams ('tee' does for example) then that will override corresponding changes by 'stdbuf'. Also some filters (like 'dd' and 'cat' etc.) don't use streams for I/O, and are thus unaffected by 'stdbuf' settings.
01:52:51 <b_jonas> hmm
01:52:59 <b_jonas> I hadn't heard of stdbuf until today
01:53:29 <b_jonas> why isn't that done with libc supporting it directly somehow so that stdbuf just has to pass it the information somewhere?
01:53:50 <b_jonas> I mean on Linux at least
01:54:02 <ais523> with some sorts of input and output filehandles, pv doesn't actually do any reading and writing at all, just tells the kernel to move information around internally and counts how much information moved
01:54:20 <b_jonas> what is pv?
01:54:34 <ais523> b_jonas: would have to be an environment variable, I think, and having lots of undocumented environment variables is a security risk
01:54:37 <ais523> pv measures the speed of a pipe
01:54:50 <ais523> like, counts the bytes going through
01:55:13 <ais523> basically cat with a progress bar
01:57:47 <b_jonas> ais523: that's true, though LD_PRELOAD env-var is documented in ld.so(8), TERMINFO_DIRS is docuemnted in terminfo(5), LOCPATH is documented in locale(7), and all those are security risks.
01:58:09 <b_jonas> I wonder if there is some better way to pass that information for stdbuf that is less of a security risk
01:58:26 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure what it could be
01:59:23 <ais523> I think it'd have to be some sort of fcntl that only existed for stdio's benefit
01:59:29 <ais523> a "suggested buffering behaviour" or such
01:59:34 <b_jonas> I don't think there's a way to create a kernel level file description that behaves like a normal one in general but has some auxiliary information that the child can extract.
01:59:41 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah
01:59:51 <b_jonas> or more likely a general one to attach hints
02:01:16 <zzo38> I had before had a few different ideas which can be used for this
02:01:23 <zzo38> (other uses are also possible)
02:01:41 <b_jonas> I guess you could use a lopp device, that can wrap some existing file descriptors, though perhaps not all types that are readable or writable
02:02:22 <ais523> that couldn't remove buffering, only add it (unless stdio knew that writes to that sort of loop device shouldn't be buffered)
02:02:24 <b_jonas> except I think that's super-user only
02:02:39 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean you could more easily attach hint information to that
02:02:56 <b_jonas> and since it's a device, it will be unbuffered by default
02:03:10 <b_jonas> or wait
02:03:16 <b_jonas> is that only char devices, not block devices?
02:03:53 <ais523> the problem with using devices for this is that they need device numbers, which are in limited supply
02:04:22 <ais523> also I thought it was specifically ttys that had weird buffering behaviour, but even then, writes to ttys are line-buffered by stdio
02:04:58 <zzo38> One idea might be if the C library would read a environment variable and set them (unless overridden), but then the C library must be written to take advantage of that. There is also the case of file descriptors; possibly allowing file descriptors to be attached somehow (and for this attachment to be visible in /proc)
02:05:10 <b_jonas> not even that. libc docs says "Newly opened streams are normally fully buffered, with one exception: initially line buffered."
02:05:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, specifically terminal devices
02:07:27 <b_jonas> well this stdbuf is an esoteric hack I guess, one that you hopefully don't need because programs where you may want to change the buffering have that built-in as an option
02:09:29 <keegan> it's a handy hack to know
02:09:42 <keegan> now i'm wondering if it could generalize to some 'run these libc calls before main()' type of wrapper
02:09:47 <keegan> which could actually probably be a gdb script
02:10:38 <zzo38> Free Hero Mesh does flush or disable buffering in some cases in order to allow ts to be used to time parts of the program.
02:10:49 <b_jonas> btw I dreamt of a kernel feature where there's a Linux namespace such that different namespaces can have different wall clocks, differing not just in the timezone (which is mainly a user-space thing and can already be overridden with an env-var) but different offset and speed correction and even different idea of which months have leap seconds. this would probably be more esoteric than useful.
02:11:08 <b_jonas> there is an old libc hack to try to convince a process that the time is what you say it is
02:11:21 <keegan> was this from an actual dream
02:11:29 <b_jonas> keegan: more like a daydream
02:11:38 <b_jonas> but it's so old that I think it predates clock_gettime
02:12:06 <ais523> this would be useful for running programs reproducibly
02:12:19 <zzo38> I think I saw once a program that can do that, and I think that the system emulation interface should be designed to allow this including stealthy.
02:12:22 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps, but it's not really enough for that
02:12:22 <ais523> although I think leap seconds are mostly handled in userspace?
02:12:46 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I think they're handled by the same daemon that synchronizes time to NTP
02:12:51 <b_jonas> on Linux that is
02:13:08 <b_jonas> I don't think the kernel knows about them
02:13:20 <b_jonas> but I could be wrong here
02:14:14 <b_jonas> running programs reproducibly is really hard these days if you want any kind of performance
02:15:00 <b_jonas> because the CPU itself doesn't aim to run things completely reproducibly
02:15:12 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris has its own handling of leap seconds (since it is necessary to know about past and future leap seconds), in order to convert between UTC and ephemeris time
02:15:39 <zzo38> It is something I thought of, design the CPU instruction set with the idea that you can run programs completely reproducibly
02:17:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: perhaps a CPU could provide such a mode, but it's not easy
02:17:27 <ais523> I think on modern x86, the vast majority of commands are intended to be reproducible in register/memory effect, if not timing
02:17:43 <ais523> and most of the others have options to disable them or emulate in software
02:18:00 <ais523> the main lack of reproducibility comes to things like the sequence in which multiple threads are interleaved
02:19:13 <b_jonas> ais523: perhaps, but there are all sorts of ways to leak informaton about caching and timing and speculation, some of them deliberately intended for measuring performance and microoptimzing your code, some just incidentally exposing something like the software transactional memory instructions which are used to implement mutexes and the like, and you can just ask for the time or randomness deliberately
02:20:04 <b_jonas> and the OS not being reproducible adds to that cake, because a program can tell if a page is swapped in or not if it wants to
02:20:07 <b_jonas> and more
02:21:27 <ais523> RDTSC and RDRAND can both be switched off I think
02:21:44 <ais523> and most (but probably not all) of the side-channels come down to timing
02:24:18 <zzo38> Including fake timing if needed, and designing the rest of the system to support this too, including the BIOS. Also excluding much of the complexity of modern systems, such as out of order execution, automatic caching, etc
02:24:31 <b_jonas> I did sort of wonder what it would take to make an interpreter that aims to be reproducible, even on different hardware, slower than native code but still performant enough. Mostly for the purpose of being able to run user-submitted code like bfjoust and get a deterministic result. The hard part is that need to decide when the code is terminated with a timeout, reproducibly and without overhead, without
02:24:36 <b_jonas> assuming that every single memory access has to go to the main memory without caches.
02:25:45 <b_jonas> ais523: can the OS disable software transactional memory? all debugging and peformance thingies? checking what pages are swapped in is fixable if you don't allow swapping any of the pages I guess.
02:26:31 <ais523> performance counters and debugging variables can definitely be made inaccessible from userspace (in fact, I think they are by default, and gdb has to ask the kernel to set the debugging variables for it)
02:27:12 <ais523> software transactional memory, I'm not sure on, IIRC the current Intel implementation is buggy anyway and so it gets switched off entirely in BIOS or microcode or somewhere like that
02:27:19 <ais523> (not sure if they've fixed it yet)
02:27:47 <b_jonas> hmm
02:28:30 <ais523> zzo38: out of order execution is interesting, in that it's in theory possible to write programs to not need it simply by reordering the commands, but modern processors pretty much have to implement it so that compilers don't need to generate specific code for every processor model
02:29:13 <b_jonas> ais523: what do you do with detecting what's in the various code caches using ill-advised self-modifying code?
02:29:16 <ais523> as for caching, processors would probably be faster with manual caching in many cases
02:29:18 <b_jonas> oh wait, that might not work
02:29:28 <ais523> b_jonas: that causes a machine nuke nowadays if you try to do it
02:29:30 <b_jonas> hmm
02:29:32 <ais523> very slow, but deterministic
02:29:58 <b_jonas> yeah, on x86 it's probably deterministic enough
02:30:03 <ais523> (where by "very slow" I mean tens of processor cycles, plus however long it takes to re-fetch the code from memory, so not all that slow in an absolute sense)
02:30:14 <b_jonas> (at least for things that you can do in userspace)
02:31:15 <b_jonas> interesting, this makes it sound less hopeless than I thought
02:31:21 <ais523> I don't know whether verr/verw (the "check which pages are swapped in" commands) are disabled
02:31:38 <ais523> * can be disabled
02:31:39 <b_jonas> ais523: you can just disable caching for that
02:31:41 <ais523> they are used very rarely, tohugh
02:32:02 <b_jonas> um
02:32:03 <ais523> also, swapping is under kernel control (not processor control), so you could just swap deterministically if you wanted to
02:32:04 <b_jonas> disable swapping
02:32:13 <ais523> you can actually disable caching
02:32:17 <ais523> you probably shouldn't, but it's *possible*
02:32:25 <b_jonas> yes, but here I meant disable swapping
02:33:08 <ais523> one thing that is missing in the x86 instruction set is a way to tell it "I'm no longer using this memory and don't care if you put arbitrary data in it"
02:33:24 <ais523> this would be useful to let it know that it doesn't have to write its caches back to memory
02:33:37 <b_jonas> yeah
02:33:40 <ais523> (although it would provide side-channel opportunities)
02:33:42 <b_jonas> well
02:34:03 <ais523> I guess there's INVD but that affects all memory on the entire system, which isn't the most useful operation :-D
02:34:12 <ais523> (and it's ring 0 for obvious reasons)
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02:35:50 <b_jonas> that doesn't seem like a thing you'd often want to do
02:35:58 <b_jonas> I mean for all memory in the system
02:36:07 <b_jonas> for a specific cache line it would be useful
02:39:26 <ais523> it doesn't seem useful to me either
02:41:01 <b_jonas> there is a way to disable RDTSC, but can you disable RDRAND or RDSEED in a sane way?
02:41:39 <ais523> hmm, maybe not
02:42:13 <b_jonas> there's probably some insane way to disable it, intended only for debugging or performance monitoring or virtual machines or reflushing the BIOS
02:42:33 <ais523> "rdrand" doesn't appear anywhere in the documentation of the various processor bits that can be messed with by the OS
02:42:46 <ais523> although, this is some fairly old docs I'm looking at
02:42:52 <ais523> (I grepped it, didn't search manually)
02:44:43 <b_jonas> presumably you'd also have to make sure the program isn't interrupted by signals in a nondeterministic way, and terminated on some fatal conditions like segfaults
02:45:07 <ais523> signals generated by the processor are very, very deterministic on x86
02:45:24 <ais523> to the extent that it's documented which order they get delivered in if multiple signals are generated simultaneously
02:45:27 <b_jonas> and even then I wonder if there might be detectable side-effects from hardware interrupts that aren't related to the process at all
02:45:51 <ais523> hardware interrupts relative to software execution are a lot less deterministic, obviously
02:46:06 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but only if the signals are triggered at exactly the same time, which you can't do if you want to allow the underlying process to have varying timing
02:47:36 <ais523> well, it matters if they're triggered by the same instruction
02:48:18 <ais523> a common example is simultaneous page fault and general protection fault, if a userspace program tries to use a kernelspace command on memory it can't access
02:48:30 <ais523> well, not common, I doubt that happens in practice very often
02:48:40 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe that's not too serious and they don't have detectable side effects in your user program if you're careful
02:48:41 <ais523> but common in that it doesn't take much setup and there are lots of ways to do it
03:02:53 <zzo38> I didn't like there are too many functions for making new file descriptors, and I would remove most of them; for many cases openat can be used, and sometimes newfd. (This simplifies overriding them or recording the used file descriptors, and other things too)
03:09:42 <ais523> what is newfd? I don't have a manual page for it
03:10:17 <ais523> at least there isn't a creatat (openat can do the same thing)
03:19:47 <zzo38> It is my own idea; it causes the next file descriptor to use the specified number (even if it is already in use) instead of assigning one automatically
04:14:49 <ais523> I don't think that's thread-safe, because another thread might open an FD in between the newfd and openat calls
04:15:28 <ais523> maybe the desired FD number should be an argument to openat?
04:15:47 <ais523> (alternatively, you could go the other way, where FD numbers don't follow any pattern at all and are arbitrary; this is what WebAssembly does)
04:27:33 <shachaf> That seems like a good way to me.
04:27:46 <shachaf> It's what Windows does, I guess. How does Windows handle standard descriptors like stdout?
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04:44:57 <zzo38> I think being able to override specific existing file descriptors is useful. Although, making it a argument of openat (and -1 meaning automatic) will work too.
04:44:59 <pikhq> the libc file descriptor layer maps the stdin, stdout, and stderr file handles (which can be retrieved from GetStdHandle()) to file descriptors 0, 1, and 2
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04:45:40 <shachaf> GetStdHandle, got it.
04:45:43 <pikhq> (since on Windows, file descriptors aren't an OS-level feature at all, they're just an API that libc implements on top of the Win32 API)
04:46:17 <shachaf> Sure, I didn't mean file descriptors, I meant how you get the handle to stdout at all.
04:46:40 <pikhq> ah, fair
04:46:40 <shachaf> I guess GetCurrentProcess is similarly a way to get a handle to the current process.
04:46:48 <pikhq> yep
04:46:57 <shachaf> So you just have known calls that get handles. That seems fine.
04:47:17 <shachaf> It probably makes sense to have handles be arbitrary, and then have special ways to get special ones.
04:47:48 <pikhq> it is the typical windows thing -- rather than having fixed constants or parameters to main or globals or something, you've got functions that retrieve opaque handles you can operate on
04:48:11 <shachaf> Seems fine to me.
04:48:13 <pikhq> to be entirely fair, while it is weird to me coming from a unix mindset, it is not at all an unreasonable way of doing things
04:48:16 <shachaf> You could also have a known region of memory.
04:48:19 <shachaf> It's not all that weird.
04:48:27 <shachaf> It's like auxvals in Linux for instance.
04:48:41 <shachaf> You could imagine having the file descriptors for in/out/err stored there.
04:48:49 <pikhq> i also think those are weird :p
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04:49:46 * pikhq shrugs
04:49:56 <shachaf> All of them?
04:51:07 <pikhq> auxvals as a concept, yeah. it's just a slightly odd additional mechanism, although i understand exactly why you'd do it
04:51:44 <shachaf> How about argv and envp?
04:53:25 <zzo38> I think probably the requested number (or -1) as the argument of openat is probably good. Also you can have POSIX compatibility (in the C standard library) in this way, and can make new specific numbes if you need that for some reason passing between programs, too. (Maybe it could also be usable for argv and envp too; I don't know)
04:53:53 <pikhq> the thing that makes auxvals kinda weird (at least to me) is that they aren't parameters to main() but they are parameters to _start
04:54:29 <shachaf> Oh, well, main is a nonsense lie.
04:54:49 <shachaf> I did say Linux, so the ABI I have in mind is the one the kernel sets up.
04:55:03 <pikhq> i know that main isn't the actual entry point, but it is the actual API contract :P
04:55:20 <pikhq> although to be sure the ELF entry point is also a hard API contract
04:55:34 <shachaf> Statically linked programs are where it's at.
04:56:06 <shachaf> main is a libc API, and I'm not a big fan of libc.
04:56:10 <pikhq> (and even a portable one! this isn't Linux-specific, it's an ELF thing!)
04:57:16 <pikhq> it is but you're gonna have a hard time using any external libraries without libc (and writing to the raw Linux syscall interface has some really counterintuitive edge cases if you're more familiar with POSIX semantics)
04:58:04 <pikhq> of course, if you actually are static linked, you are probably in sufficient control of what you depend on that you can just... not worry about that
04:58:56 <shachaf> The only external libraries I'm worried about are things like OpenGL where you have no choice but to use libc.
04:59:49 <shachaf> For the most part the raw Linux interface seems much better and more usable than the libc interface.
04:59:57 <pikhq> yeah that's the main example where it's a necessity rather than convenience
05:00:53 <shachaf> For example: ptrace(PTRACE_PEEKDATA) (and getpriority/nice)
05:01:10 <shachaf> ppoll's remaining timeout return value
05:01:31 <shachaf> glibc used to *emulate* ppoll in userspace when the system call failed with ENOSYS, defeating the entire purpose of using ppoll.
05:01:55 <shachaf> The waitid() system call has a fifth argument but glibc hides it for no reason and makes you use deprecated calls to get at it.
05:02:27 <shachaf> The whole errno deal, of course.
05:02:46 <pikhq> and then there's setuid. POSIX setuid sets the effective uid of the process. Linux setuid sets the effective uid of the thread, and now you have different privileges coexisting in your process
05:03:07 <shachaf> pthread_create probably wins over doing it yourself with clone, which is admittedly pretty awkward.
05:05:16 <shachaf> I imagine almost all cases of setuid are single-threaded anyway.
05:05:35 <shachaf> But that's good to know. Looking at musl, it just kills the current process if it fails to setuid on all threads.
05:33:02 <ais523> 99% of the uses of setuid are dropping permissions, rather than raising them
05:33:22 <ais523> and I think it's plausible to want to drop permissions on some threads and not others, although it might make it hard for them to communicate with each other
05:34:34 <ais523> (although, there are probably better permission models than the UNIX model)
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05:56:09 <zzo38> Which pokemon rule options are missing/wrong? http://zzo38computer.org/misc/option.html
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10:00:24 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87541&oldid=85372 * WallGraffiti * (+100)
10:02:27 <esolangs> [[4BOD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87542&oldid=87541 * WallGraffiti * (+42)
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10:37:41 <wib_jonas> "<ais523> I think libc should be split into two parts" => the problem is that libc has to be compatible with its old versions for a very long time, so it gathers lots of historical cruft that obviously shouldn't be there but we can't just remove it now
10:38:01 <wib_jonas> so some of what is and isn't in libc is partly accidental
10:39:03 <wib_jonas> and as for libc buffering of file handles, some programming language standard libraries actually reimplement it, rather than just forward the C thing.
10:40:39 <wib_jonas> the guaranteed sequential file descriptors in unix is also something we can't do much about. we can add a flag like O_CLOEXEC where the process tells the kernel that it doesn't require sequential file descriptor number, but we can't change the existing ABI\
10:42:41 <wib_jonas> zzo38: as for more explicit control of memory caching, one thing I was wondering is if a CPU or virtual machine specialized on this could have, instead of a single eight-way L1D cache, a separate one-way L1D cache per index register, and every reference to data memory would use the L1D cache associated with the index register that is the base of
10:42:41 <wib_jonas> the memory address, at least by default
10:43:47 <wib_jonas> of course the problem then is what happens when you try to write a memory address through multiple index registers
10:46:43 <river> I wonder why we need things like libc to be compatable
10:46:55 <river> all software is being constantly "maintained"
10:47:44 <river> so if libc changed they could just sort problems that come up, they probably wouldn't even notice a difference from normal maintanance
10:47:55 <river> maintenance*
10:48:47 <myname> "all software is being constantly maintained" hahahahahahaha
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10:57:49 <myname> i am actively using a software that is abandoned for 6 years now
11:01:13 <int-e> is it Windows 7 ;-)
11:01:59 <myname> no
11:11:00 <wib_jonas> an Android phone_
11:11:03 <wib_jonas> ?
11:12:10 <myname> a linux software
12:13:49 <nakilon> no way, linux is maintained by paid employees of a Linux megacorporation in the Silicon Valley; oh wait...
12:14:50 <nakilon> btw, want to share two news about videogames
12:15:02 <nakilon> 1. OpenTTD is now in Steam
12:15:20 <nakilon> 2. Stray - Official Gameplay & Release Window Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4l6uWxe-vk
12:17:34 <wib_jonas> nakilon: OpenTTD is also in Debian, which just released a new major release, so you get a reasonably up to date version of OpenTTD if you install from there. or you can just download a binary from https://www.openttd.org/downloads/openttd-releases/latest.html
12:17:47 <wib_jonas> (sorry, I don't like Steam)
12:18:41 <nakilon> looks liek it's even here https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/openttd
12:19:16 <wib_jonas> I have compiled the openttd executable from source, so I know that works, but that was many years ago
12:19:23 <wib_jonas> these days I just run a binary
12:22:45 <nakilon> steam is handy -- you can see what your friends are playing and jump into multiplayer with them without leaving the game and registering more accounts around the web
12:23:51 <nakilon> also a handy way to save and share game screenshots
12:23:53 <Melvar> <ais523> at a previous job, my boss asked me why his Haskell program was getting affected by libc buffering when it wasn't written in C – Probably it wasn’t, but everything does buffering because not buffering performs badly *except* for terminal interaction. Furthermore, ttys themselves distinguish raw (unbuffered) and cooked (line-buffered) mode for input only, so everything has to have
12:23:55 <Melvar> those three buffering modes on at least certain handles.
12:27:07 <Melvar> Regarding the whole discussion of processor determinism, I was reminded of https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3212479 (“Your computer is not a fast PDP-11”).
12:28:22 <Melvar> <zzo38> I think being able to override specific existing file descriptors is useful. – That’s what dup2/dup3 is for, isn’t it?
12:40:58 <fizzie> Hey, that's that cat game.
12:47:19 <fizzie> (Stray, I mean; I don't think OpenTTD has any cats. You probably couldn't really see them, the scale it's at.)
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13:05:47 <nakilon> I wonder if some moments in that trailer are scripted or not
13:06:10 <nakilon> such as when dude goes backward into a room and bumps into another one
13:07:46 <nakilon> s/if/whether , right?
13:09:20 <myname> nakilon: i said linux software, not the kernel
13:09:50 <nakilon> same world
13:10:04 <myname> uh, no
13:10:28 <myname> not every oss project in existence is maintained by the linux foundation
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13:26:42 <myname> ah nvmd
13:38:11 <wib_jonas> how much category theory does fungot know? did he pick some up on the channel when you prepared all those models
13:41:36 <river> fungot: know category theory?
13:47:07 <fizzie> Wait, where's fungot?
13:48:03 <int-e> @seen fungot
13:48:03 <lambdabot> I saw fungot leaving #esolangs 9h 2m 25s ago.
13:48:03 <wib_jonas> missing because of the pandemic probably
13:49:14 <int-e> fizzie: libera rebooted two servers around that time, maybe fungot was on one of those
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13:50:10 <fizzie> Yep. This time it had reconnected, but not rejoined because it doesn't know how to.
13:54:35 <shachaf> int-e: Wait, @seen is back?
13:54:44 <shachaf> Wasn't it broken for a decade or two?
13:55:37 <wib_jonas> no idea
13:55:44 <wib_jonas> @seen @seen
13:55:44 <lambdabot> I haven't seen @seen.
13:56:04 <wib_jonas> @seen seen
13:56:04 <lambdabot> I haven't seen seen.
13:56:11 <wib_jonas> `? whatis seen
13:56:12 <HackEso> whatis seen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:56:15 <int-e> shachaf: I had it disabled for a long time because it caused lambdabot to use noticably more memory, possibly leaking memory as well (though I never quite proved that)
13:56:17 <wib_jonas> `whatis seen
13:56:18 <HackEso> seen(1hackeso) - no description
13:56:47 <int-e> it made the difference between it becoming unresponsive and needing a restart every week and it being stable for basically forever, subject to network troubles
13:57:32 <int-e> I fixed some shortcomings but mostly it's on a larger VM now where this is less of an issue.
13:57:36 * int-e shrugs
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14:10:36 <wib_jonas> int-e: like stalker mode for fizzie?
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14:41:24 <Noisytoot> wib_jonas, OpenTTD is also packaged in GNU Guix and probably many other distributions
14:59:29 <myname> even nixos has a package for it
15:00:38 <myname> guix reads pretty similar to nixos
15:01:33 <Corbin> Is that surprising? nixpkgs is basically the biggest public ports tree, although I'd love to learn of bigger ones.
15:02:20 <Corbin> https://repology.org/graph/map_repo_size_fresh.svg I still love this plot. Comparison of various distros and ports trees based on number of packages and number of "fresh" up-to-date packages.
15:08:16 <wib_jonas> Corbin: only in the sense that the tireless contributors to OpenTTD managed to replace the original graphics from TTD and provide free graphics, so it's now free software enough even for Debian's standards, unlike the early versions.
15:14:13 <Corbin> wib_jonas: Oh, that makes sense. Congratulations to them; it must have been a lot of work.
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17:14:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Jdonszelmann * uploaded "[[File:Collatz.png]]"
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17:17:14 <esolangs> [[TRAIN!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87544 * Jdonszelmann * (+8291) TRAIN! is a programming language centered about trains moving passengers with data around stations which apply operations.
17:18:11 <esolangs> [[TRAIN!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87545&oldid=87544 * Jdonszelmann * (-5)
17:21:11 <esolangs> [[TRAIN!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87546&oldid=87545 * Jdonszelmann * (-10)
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18:47:46 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87547 * VilgotanL * (+1201) mogus
18:48:49 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87548&oldid=87547 * VilgotanL * (+1) fix minor bug
18:53:17 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87549&oldid=87548 * VilgotanL * (+158)
18:53:34 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87550&oldid=87549 * VilgotanL * (+6)
18:57:55 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87551&oldid=87550 * VilgotanL * (+226)
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19:20:38 <esolangs> [[Malfunge]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87552 * ArthroStar11 * (+2607) created page and provided link to my interpreter
19:22:02 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87553&oldid=87538 * ArthroStar11 * (+15) Added my language "Malfunge"
19:23:30 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87554&oldid=86412 * ArthroStar11 * (+131)
19:24:26 <esolangs> [[Malfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87555&oldid=87552 * ArthroStar11 * (+25) remembered to add "Implemented" category
19:26:17 <esolangs> [[Geolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87556 * TJC games * (+538) Created page with "Geolang is a programming language made by [[user:TJC games|TJC games]] for helping with geometry. Who am I kidding, it is a stupid language made by a stupid person. ==Usage==..."
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19:59:02 <esolangs> [[User:Oshaboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87557&oldid=83461 * Oshaboy * (+508)
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20:56:33 <esolangs> [[Malfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87558&oldid=87555 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* Implementation */ cAt
21:06:41 <esolangs> [[Sophie]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87559&oldid=85358 * Oshaboy * (+0) typo
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21:23:02 <esolangs> [[Truthlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87560 * Oshaboy * (+779) Initial
21:23:31 <esolangs> [[User:Oshaboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87561&oldid=87557 * Oshaboy * (+37) Added Truthlang
21:27:11 <esolangs> [[Truthlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87562&oldid=87560 * Oshaboy * (+50) I just realized an interpreter would be a Truth Machine.
21:29:44 <esolangs> [[Truthlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87563&oldid=87562 * Oshaboy * (-50) Undo revision 87562 by [[Special:Contributions/Oshaboy|Oshaboy]] ([[User talk:Oshaboy|talk]])
21:30:54 <esolangs> [[Truthlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87564&oldid=87563 * Oshaboy * (+93) Truth Machines aren't Truthlang Interpreters
21:32:52 <esolangs> [[Truthlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87565&oldid=87564 * Oshaboy * (+29) /* Overview */
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21:45:00 <esolangs> [[Malfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87566&oldid=87558 * ArthroStar11 * (+150) Put in size of playfield. Sorry, it was a big project with a complex specification, I'm not trying to spam.
22:19:54 <esolangs> [[Scroll]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87567&oldid=87436 * WreckingGames * (+1)
22:21:23 <esolangs> [[Scroll]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87568&oldid=87567 * WreckingGames * (+1)
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23:55:31 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87569&oldid=84431 * Oerjan * (+147) Temporary fix for the edit blocking people are experiencing
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23:57:28 <ais523> it's unclear what the correct solution for the hello world page is
23:57:29 <oerjan> uh oh
23:57:55 <ais523> your temporary solution's a nice one to unblock things, but I'm not sure what the "correct" solution is
23:58:24 <ais523> maybe we need some sort of dedicated hello world browser
23:58:36 <oerjan> heh
23:58:53 <oerjan> yeah if we want people to be able to see everything on one page it may be awkward.
23:59:36 <ais523> perhaps splitting it up into 27 pages (one for each English letter and one for the languages whose names start with something else)?
2021-08-24
00:00:00 <oerjan> i was briefly considering just splitting A-M and N-~
00:01:06 <oerjan> 27 pages seems excessive to start with
00:02:07 <ais523> splitting it in half is probably enough for now, but maybe we'll want to split it more later
00:02:11 <ais523> do you want to split it, or shall I?
00:02:46 <ais523> I guess I'll do it
00:03:40 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] to [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]: this has outgrown a single page
00:04:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I suggested splitting to 5 pages
00:05:11 <b_jonas> if we just split it in two, we'll split it again later and we'll get another set of broken links
00:06:17 <esolangs> [[Editing Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87572 * Ais523 * (+90766) split from [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]]
00:07:28 <b_jonas> ais523: "Editing" in the title
00:07:30 <esolangs> [[Editing Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87573&oldid=87572 * Ais523 * (+270) introduction
00:08:35 <oerjan> maybe that's on purpose?
00:08:52 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87574&oldid=87570 * Ais523 * (-90581) half this page has been moved to another page
00:08:57 <ais523> oh, it isn't
00:09:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't think so, it's probably bad copy-paste from the title
00:09:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ais523 * moved [[Editing Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]] to [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (N-Z)]]: typo in name
00:11:13 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87576&oldid=87571 * Ais523 * (+160) an intro page that links to the two parts that the list has been split into
00:11:42 <ais523> this will do for now, I think
00:11:54 <ais523> and it'll generalise to more sections if we need to split the page up more later
00:11:57 <oerjan> thanks
00:12:57 <ais523> IIRC the recommended maximum page size is 32KiB, and both halves are around three times that at the moment, so maybe splitting it up still further would be a good idea, but that can wait I think
00:14:07 <ais523> I'm surprised by how evenly the esolangs seem to be distributed among the alphabet
00:14:17 <ais523> most alphabetical lists of things have a bias towards the start of the alphabet
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01:18:57 <oerjan> argh suddenly i realized why b_jonas was right to worry about broken links
01:19:36 <oerjan> all the sectioned ones. and there's just no way we can keep those from outside the wiki working, is there...
01:19:51 <oerjan> assuming there are any.
01:20:21 <oerjan> *those with section anchors
01:23:55 <zzo38> Well, if it contains other links and it is clear from the anchor name where to find it, then the user should be able to figure out what to do, I suppose
01:30:24 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm pretty many users are not that intelligent and i am not patient enough not to be annoyed by such a thing
01:30:30 <oerjan> *pretty sure
01:31:52 <oerjan> (ok right now i'm worked up and therefore not patient at all. time to calm down...)
01:44:01 <zzo38> Well, hopefully if there are any such links they will be fixed; if not, then the user figuring it out from what is written on there will have to do.
02:18:23 <ais523> in theory we could come up with some piece of complicated JavaScript that looks to see if someone visits the intro page via a section link, and automatically jumps to the appropriate page
02:18:35 <ais523> but, I'm not in the right state of mind to write it right now
02:30:53 <oerjan> ooh
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04:44:56 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87577&oldid=87551 * ZippyMagician * (+612) Update computational class section, add programs.
04:49:23 <esolangs> [[Mogus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87578&oldid=87577 * TriMill * (-12) Fixed a few mistakes in the examples, changed my attribution to my wiki account
06:04:21 <nakilon> the broken links problem might need to replace the current page with one that just says "hey, the page was splitted, look for your lang somewhere there"
06:04:30 <nakilon> idk
06:05:10 <nakilon> there is the problem with rosettacode -- instead of putting snippets in every lang dedicated page they put all on one page and it burns CPU like mad
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07:59:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, we can have a table of contents on the original page; except since ais moved that, short links like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=1322 are already broken
08:00:19 <b_jonas> those will point to the @-M version
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12:07:47 <wib_jonas> I just realized, my full backup script "http://www.perlmonks.com/index.pl?node_id=922051" , which I'm still using today, is 10 years old since publication. I'll be using it soon to make a full backup before I update the debian version.
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13:38:21 <nakilon> half of the job is done https://imgur.com/a/2X4sFFr now need to add textarea for stdin and render the annotated output somehow that is another fight with CSS _<>
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16:06:17 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jnavb * New user account
16:10:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87579&oldid=87505 * Jnavb * (+171) /* Introductions */
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16:54:25 <nakilon> hmmm in Ruby if you do a,b=[1,2] it results in a=1, b = 2; if you do a,b=3 it results in a=3,b=nil
16:54:42 <nakilon> I can't find how to do the same in JS https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Operators/Destructuring_assignment
16:55:22 <nakilon> in my annotated log each stack item is either a number or [number, annotation]
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17:35:29 <nakilon> I suppose this looks fine enough https://i.imgur.com/c7Funvz.png
17:36:07 <nakilon> looks a bit awkward that widths are different but if I equalise them the whole stack will become needlessly wide
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18:11:13 <nakilon> would be cool if I hover mouse over log line and it highlights the code... but I'll leave it for later
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18:29:04 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87580&oldid=87421 * KakkoiiChris * (+1) /* Memory */ Fixed typo
18:31:38 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87581&oldid=87580 * KakkoiiChris * (+8) /* String Cast (xs) */ Fixed typo
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18:46:30 <esolangs> [[Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87582&oldid=23941 * CosmicMan08 * (+18) Added halt instruction
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19:08:51 <esolangs> [[Ultimate bf instruction minimalization!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87583&oldid=87582 * CosmicMan08 * (-18) Undo revision 87582 by [[Special:Contributions/CosmicMan08|CosmicMan08]] ([[User talk:CosmicMan08|talk]])
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19:37:44 <esolangs> [[English]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87584&oldid=81409 * ThisIsTheFoxe * (+2041) /* Compilers */ add openAI comments
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21:39:19 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87585&oldid=87574 * Salpynx * (+274) /* */ ixqus
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22:29:58 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87586&oldid=87342 * Salpynx * (+328) testing pixelated scaling for EnlargeImage template
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22:45:06 <esolangs> [[Template:EnlargeImage]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87587&oldid=8796 * Salpynx * (+49) if someone can think of a wiki markup only way to apply this style, please change it!
22:46:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:Piet-Q]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87588&oldid=35075 * Salpynx * (+142)
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23:04:21 <oerjan> <nakilon> the broken links problem might need to replace the current page with one that just says "hey, the page was splitted, look for your lang somewhere there" <-- well yeah, that's what ais523 already did essentially
23:04:57 <oerjan> i just got a bit obsessive thinking about it yesterday.
23:07:27 <oerjan> b_jonas: in other obsessive thinking, i've kept wondering a bit about your "find two files that break merging" problem. last i spoke about it i'd confirmed that double bisection (with careful balancing) is optional up to 10 files. however then it stopped being obvious. now i've found a corner case where a different algorithm usually handles _better_ than double bisection, in fact it achieves the
23:07:33 <oerjan> theoretical limit of that OEIS function i linked.
23:07:41 <oerjan> *is optimal up to 10 files
23:08:56 <oerjan> with that, i've shown that 11, 12, 13 and 15 optimal searches that are _not_ double bisections. (for 14 double bisection gives the OEIS optimum.)
23:09:22 <oerjan> 16 seems to require analyzing a different more complicated corner case which i haven't finished.
23:11:50 <oerjan> the corner case i've found is where you've done the initial bisection down to 3 files (so one of those must be a target file) out of n. continuing with the double bisection is then only optimal if n is 2^k+{1,2}.
23:14:17 <oerjan> (if you get down to 2 / 4 files in contrast, double bisection is always / usually optimal.)
23:18:12 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87589&oldid=70256 * Salpynx * (+23) Add category Languages.
23:18:25 <oerjan> hm b_jonas probably isn't here. i guess i should stop monologuing until he is.
23:26:09 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oerjan: well, we can have a table of contents on the original page; except since ais moved that, short links like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page?curid=1322 are already broken <-- i don't think i'm going to worry about link formats which only experts know about.
23:30:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87590&oldid=87586 * Salpynx * (+121) /* Mycelium Hello, World! */
23:40:03 <esolangs> [[English]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87591&oldid=87584 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */ Overflow scroll
2021-08-25
00:00:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: hmm
00:00:19 <oerjan> oh hi
00:01:15 <b_jonas> I wonder if this is related to opitmal sorting networks or optimal interactive sorting protocols that minimize the number of comparisons
00:01:50 <b_jonas> or that weird screws and nuts comparison problem
00:01:53 <oerjan> perhaps, although the difference is that the underlying tests here don't really come from a _total_ order
00:02:19 <oerjan> you still can structure them in a binary tree, though, which is why they must obey the OEIS function limit
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00:03:29 <oerjan> (the function can be described as: minimum sum of depths of leaves in a binary tree with a given number of leaves)
00:03:43 <b_jonas> ftr I don't need an optimal method; close to optimal for large numbers and optimal for small numbers is already fine for me
00:04:03 <oerjan> true, as i said i just got obsessed about the question
00:05:22 <oerjan> and also finding the optimal method might get hairy in more complicated cases: for 16 files i'm having to look at the corner case with _5_ files out of 16
00:05:54 <oerjan> which looks like it _might_ be done better than by bisection but i haven't wrapped it up
00:06:45 <b_jonas> and I logread this channel anyway
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00:07:28 <oerjan> a general principle seems to be that the problem gets harder when the number of possible pairs is close to a power of 2 (because that minimizes the slack you have in balancing)
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00:09:01 <b_jonas> if you care about the minimum that is, not eg. the average
00:09:32 <oerjan> i'm actually caring about the average over all possible pairs
00:10:09 <oerjan> which is OEIS(n)/n for a sufficiently balanced tree
00:10:23 <oerjan> er
00:10:35 <oerjan> that's when n is the number of possible pairs.
00:11:04 <oerjan> also for a _perfectly_ balanced tree that also forces the minimum
00:11:28 <oerjan> s/perfectly/sufficiently/
00:11:55 <oerjan> well that _is_ perfectly for that given number
00:12:39 <oerjan> because the only way to have that is for all the leaves to be at exactly 2 levels - otherwise you can improve by rearranging.
00:12:58 <oerjan> (well or 1 level for an exact power of 2)
00:16:52 <oerjan> anyway, i'm monologuing again (MWAHAHAHA)
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01:26:15 <Hooloovoo> j #dragonbox-pyra
01:26:29 <Hooloovoo> woops
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01:41:07 <zzo38> Which web browsers can you write dynamic extensions in C?
01:45:52 <sebbu> none anymore
01:46:26 <sebbu> they want to remove plugins, and remove even the feature of supporting plugins
01:47:38 <sebbu> whether it's activex, ppapi or npapi
01:48:14 <keegan> does the south korean banking system still run on activex or did they fix that finally
01:48:55 <sebbu> LiveConnect and XPConnect might still works
01:49:05 <zzo38> None of those are what I had meant anyways though; I mean extensions and not plugins of web pages
01:49:58 <keegan> well ppapi/npapi are sort of both
01:50:10 <sebbu> extension can only be in webextension nowadays
01:51:15 <zzo38> I think WebExtensions doesn't work well enough
01:51:47 <sebbu> i do too, they have LESS features than the previous solution
01:51:52 <sebbu> but we don't have anything else
01:52:39 <zzo38> I still use the old version of Firefox with XUL, since I dislike many of the features of the new one
01:53:14 <sebbu> then you can probably still use the old firefox extensions
01:53:18 <sebbu> and npapi
01:53:23 <zzo38> Although I have ideas how a better web browser should be written, one of the ideas is that extensions should be C
01:53:46 <sebbu> all plugins already are C
01:54:44 <zzo38> Also, HTTP, HTTPS, HTML, and many other things should also be implemented as extensions, although the "data" URI scheme will be a part of the core system
01:56:58 <sebbu> yeah, and we should restore support of ftp, ftps, sftp, gopher, gemini, ipfs, tor, etc... in browsers
01:57:07 <sebbu> alongside with rtf, sgml, tex, markdown and others
01:57:49 <sebbu> IDE (and toolchains) already have something similar with https://langserver.org/
01:58:47 <sebbu> it WAS made by microsoft, but it's still a very nice idea, completely separating the tool, from the language, from the compiler
01:59:31 <sebbu> most IDE and tools already supports it
02:00:45 <zzo38> Yes, FTP, Gopher, Gemini, IPFS, etc can also be implemented as extensions and should be included with the browser. (Implementing nearly all of the URI schemes (except data: and some uses of about:) in extensions makes it more uniform and allow better customization, and ensures that the extension interface works good enough)
02:01:53 <sebbu> <img> <audio> <video> <object> <embed> should also be related to extensions
02:01:58 <zzo38> Character encodings also might want implemented by extensions
02:02:13 <sebbu> and compressions
02:02:36 <sebbu> quoted-printable, gzip, zlib, brotli for example
02:02:37 <zzo38> Yes; if extension can implement any MIME types, then it can also be used to add picture formats, etc
02:03:03 <sebbu> then you must also make it not limited to browsers
02:03:09 <sebbu> but also mail clients and other things
02:03:23 <sebbu> you could support yEnc, opengpg, s/mime, etc...
02:04:20 <sebbu> have "windows" or "panels" that translate from one to the other, so that you could make a WYSIWYG editor with your software and a few extensions
02:05:02 <sebbu> starting with all markup languages, include markdown (several flavor), asciidoctor, yaml, etc...
02:05:42 <sebbu> make a syntaxic coloring format that works (abnf or peg) that could easily be added/extended, possibly with conversions to/from other formats
02:06:02 <zzo38> You might need different extension interfaces for some things, although writing a C code to interface between then would be possible too
02:06:11 <sebbu> supporting vcard/hcard and microformats properly in web pages
02:06:41 <sebbu> i mean, html5 already has a few more input, more calendar, birthdate, phone number, adresses, etc... should be standard
02:06:43 <sebbu> no need fo js
02:07:08 <sebbu> ideally it could even detect the main framework, and REPLACE using them with native support
02:08:03 <sebbu> adblocking would be an extension too, and wouldn't have all the restrictions current browsers give to extensions
02:09:30 <zzo38> Although many things I think deliberately should not be implemented, or be implemented differently; however, some things specified by W3C are not implemented well in current browsers but should be implemented.
02:09:51 <zzo38> You would have to remove half of the stuff, implement the other half of stuff differently, and then add some, I think
02:10:35 <sebbu> i think everything i said should be implemented, but i didn't say the how
02:10:51 <sebbu> some of the current implementation (and usage) are wrong
02:11:05 <sebbu> a different implementation might not matter if it's still as wrongly used as it is now
02:11:55 <sebbu> using js for everything is plainly wrong, and data inputting, masking and validation shouldn't even NEED js in an ideal world
02:12:18 <sebbu> and of course styles / graphic rendering shouldn't need js either
02:12:26 <sebbu> the site should work even if js is blocked
02:12:30 <zzo38> My idea does include that the core should include the model of HTTP requests/responses, but not the implementation, which is an extension. Some header names are "privileged" and cannot occur in protocols (they can be useful for user settings which rewrite requests/responses, as well as to identify permissions for some things)
02:13:27 <sebbu> yeah, you should write abnf or peg for everything
02:14:24 <zzo38> Cookies should not be needed for everything either; HTTP already has authentication. Also, SASL should be added; many protocols have SASL but HTTP(S) doesn't, I think?
02:14:31 <sebbu> you could even make every extension (and the core) testable independently
02:15:49 <zzo38> Yes, making them independent in that way can help many of thing too
02:17:35 <sebbu> SSL Client Certificate Authentication could also work
02:17:41 <sebbu> you don't need sasl
02:17:41 <zzo38> Even when JavaScripts are used in web pages (and also CSS), you might want to override things, either entire scripts or individual HTML object model properties (and also Date, which is core JavaScript, but I think that was a mistake). (For CSS, my idea is meta-CSS to allow this)
02:18:47 <sebbu> all programing language need to interact with date
02:18:56 <sebbu> having a date object isn't wrong
02:19:03 <sebbu> but not all of them have the same features :(
02:19:16 <sebbu> especially related to calendars and dates in the far past/future
02:19:36 <zzo38> I agree with that, but what I am objecting to is the ability to access the current date/time/timezone in core JavaScript, rather than it being a part of the document object model
02:19:38 <sebbu> even timezone support is often broken
02:20:19 <sebbu> javascript already has date, no ?
02:21:10 <zzo38> It does, which means that if you want to fake the date, it will have to be different than faking the DOM
02:21:26 <sebbu> why would i want to fake the date ?
02:21:35 <sebbu> it's as easy as modifying the os date in a vm
02:21:55 <sebbu> or preloading a dynamic library
02:22:12 <zzo38> You shouldn't have to do those things in order to change the behaviour of a specific web page
02:22:27 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87592&oldid=87581 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Fixed wrong line order
02:22:54 <sebbu> same if i want javascript to get the wrong url of the current page ?
02:22:55 <sebbu> :D
02:23:33 <sebbu> (i had that specific need before)
02:24:09 <zzo38> Yes, although Date is a ECMA function rather than a DOM function, which means that there is a implementation consideration when designing a web browser to support this.
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02:28:16 <zzo38> Another of my idea is adding a "feature" attribute, which can be used with <script>, <noscript>, and some others (including CSS), to discard that block if the requested features are enabled in the browser. This might greatly improve speed and memory usage in some cases, as well as allowing better user customization, and possibly other applications too.
02:29:31 <sebbu> yeah
02:30:05 <sebbu> i know relmeauth (the simplified version of indieauth) use the "rel" attribute for <link> or <a>
02:30:21 <sebbu> microformats / hcard uses the "class" attribute
02:31:21 <sebbu> it allows you great semantic specification / details, without needing to forget (x)html and requiring RDF
02:32:10 <sebbu> https://indieweb.org/RelMeAuth
02:32:27 <zzo38> I would want support for Gemini and Insecure-Gemini in curl too though, and in the web browser.
02:32:53 <sebbu> https://microformats.org/wiki/h-card
02:32:57 <sebbu> see thoses 2 links
02:33:10 <zzo38> I think RDF/XML is no good; RDF Turtle format is better
02:33:29 <sebbu> i'm still waiting on http/3 support in curl (the official binary packages, not just the sources)
02:33:58 <sebbu> for now, if you want http/3 support in curl, you must compile it yourself
02:34:24 <sebbu> all linux distributions, and windows, and msys2/cygwin, don't have http/3 support with their curl binary packages
02:34:51 <sebbu> i liked owl, but it was as verbose as rdf/xml
02:34:52 <sebbu> :D
02:36:03 <sebbu> RDF Turtle would work quite well with SPARQL
02:36:40 <sebbu> (and why RDF Turtle and not the more generic Notation3 ?)
02:43:45 <zzo38> I think RDF Turtle is suitable for many things, although I had in my own implementations, adding a few things, such as hexadecimal integer literals (they are converted to decimal when parsed), "deanonymizing operator", and "cons cell operator" (which allows the next cell of a list to be something other than a continuation of the same list)
02:45:12 <zzo38> The lack of \xhh escapes can also make some things longer than they should be, and lack of byte strings in general also can be problematic for some applications, although you can represent any byte sequence using hex strings anyways
02:47:16 <zzo38> The {} in Notation3 can be helpful for some things, although it is unclear how to represent such a thing in the resulting RDF graph
02:51:32 <sebbu> that's why i both love and hate CDATA in xml
02:52:24 <sebbu> love because it's an answer to embedding byte strings / binary data without reencoding, hate because it's so often badly implemented or not implemented at all (in xml library, tools, softwares, clients, editors, etc...)
02:55:50 <zzo38> I also think that Unicode is messy and that it won't work to use a single character encoding for all applications since different ones may need different character sets, which might work better for them. For some cases, Unicode helps, but other things TRON might be better, or ASCII, or other encodings, or not caring about the encoding at all might sometimes be better too
02:56:37 <sebbu> yeah, not caring about the encoding is sometimes what you want
02:56:48 <sebbu> but still without forcibly decoding it
02:57:06 <sebbu> i know C# Strings must have an encoding, while Byte can't
02:57:39 <sebbu> i usually use utf8 everywhere
02:58:56 <zzo38> I mostly use ASCII (which is a subset of UTF-8, so it is helpful), but sometimes others are helpful, such as PC character encoding, which is used in Free Hero Mesh as well as in ZXT metadata extensions
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03:02:12 <sebbu> no, ascii isn't a subset of utf8
03:02:15 <sebbu> us-ascii is
03:02:19 <sebbu> the 7bit encoding
03:02:39 <sebbu> ascii is a random generic name for any of the 20+ latin* encoding
03:02:59 <sebbu> windows-1252 is sometimes called ascii too
03:03:33 <sebbu> yeah, dos encoding is sometimes called ascii too
03:03:46 <sebbu> and the control characters are completely different than latin1
03:03:55 <zzo38> Also, I had a idea SQL+RDF as an alternative of SPARQL, which is a superset of RDF and also has the property that triples separated by dots is the same as NATURAL JOIN
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04:41:53 <esolangs> [[Cyclic tag system]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87593&oldid=67226 * Xylochoron * (+186) Added link to Turing machine to cyclic tag compiler
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05:50:08 <esolangs> [[User:TriMill]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87594&oldid=62836 * TriMill * (+388) engoodened userpage
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07:09:08 <b_jonas> "yeah, you should write abnf or peg for everything" => good luck with the ones for dates and the checksums eg. ISBN-10 checksum
07:10:57 <int-e> b_jonas: oh no, how big would a regular expression for that be...
07:12:20 <b_jonas> int-e: with dates, quite small, but there'll be hundreds of buggy versions out there on individual webpages, with different sets of people whose birthday is rejected as invalid
07:12:41 <int-e> (probably too big, given that the underlying DFA has about 140 states)
07:12:52 <int-e> I meant ISBN-10
07:13:43 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but BNF doesn't blow that up, it just describes the states and state transitions once directly, unlike a regex
07:13:45 <int-e> dates are comparatively sane, even with leap years
07:14:21 <b_jonas> int-e: (complicated-regex|1712-02-30)
07:14:26 <b_jonas> very sane
07:15:26 <int-e> with BNF for ISBN-10 you're still looking at 1000s of rules, aren't you?
07:17:33 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but in a neat 130*10 table I think
07:17:46 <b_jonas> it would fit on one screen
07:17:55 <int-e> 13*11*10 or so.
07:18:23 <b_jonas> yeah, plus or minus some off-by-one in each factor
07:18:54 <int-e> ah, no, the hyphens need far fewer rules than the digits. 10*11*10 + 3*11 + O(1) ;-)
07:23:13 <b_jonas> int-e: well, that depends on whether you are one of those very strict people who insist that more than three hyphens or spaces in an ISBN is invalid :-)
07:28:11 <b_jonas> I might do that for trying to find anomalies in an off-line database, but not in an interactive webpage
07:28:42 <b_jonas> but note that some library catalogs only match the ISBN if you put the spaces in the correct positions, they don't just ignore the spaces
07:29:21 <b_jonas> so given the web dev industry, someone will try be that strict
07:32:17 <int-e> there's bound to be several dozen npm packages for handling isbns :P
07:33:58 <int-e> There's at least 2 haskell libraries on hackage that do ISBN validation, probably more.
07:34:16 <int-e> And no, I'm in no mind to check how strict they are.
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09:55:31 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87595&oldid=86431 * Nakilon * (+1) /* Prime numbers generator */ -6 instructions
09:56:53 <nakilon> used the IDE to add annotations to the prime generator example and figure out that some of the code can be removed
10:42:39 <nakilon> didn't know about this http://shinh.skr.jp/elvm/8cc.js.html
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12:24:36 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87596&oldid=87595 * Nakilon * (+59) /* Examples */ removed two examples, told to look for them in GitHub
12:53:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Nakilon * uploaded "[[File:Ide-empty.png]]"
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13:14:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Nakilon * uploaded "[[File: 2021-08-25 16.13.48.png]]"
13:15:32 <nakilon> oops, uploaded a file with non-ascii letters in name
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13:27:54 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Nakilon * uploaded "[[File:Ide-log-start.png]]"
13:29:29 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Nakilon * uploaded "[[File:Ide-log-middle.png]]"
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14:30:32 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87601 * Oshaboy * (+622) Initial
14:30:52 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87602&oldid=87601 * Oshaboy * (+9) Formatting
14:31:22 <esolangs> [[User:Oshaboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87603&oldid=87561 * Oshaboy * (+43) Added FFRISC
14:47:34 <b_jonas> int-e: also the problem with ISBNs is that there have been books printed with ISBNs that have invalid checksums, or so en.Wikipedia claims, and it is ruled that those ISBNs stay valid
14:47:54 <b_jonas> it still make sense to give a warning if you try to search for an ISBN with invalid checksum, but not an error
15:28:10 <esolangs> [[RASEL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87604&oldid=87596 * Nakilon * (+4049) about IDE
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15:46:49 <nakilon> how do I refer the wiki in my github README?
15:46:53 <nakilon> "Esolang Wiki"
15:46:55 <nakilon> ?
15:59:13 <b_jonas> nakilon: that, but mostly by specific URLs
16:05:06 <nakilon> ok
16:05:37 <nakilon> so I've documented the IDE in the wiki and deployed the gem version with it
16:05:44 <nakilon> seems to be working
16:06:17 <nakilon> oh wait, it doesn't
16:07:44 <Corbin> Pretty cool.
16:08:28 <Corbin> I like the pictures of the IDE in action.
16:27:07 <b_jonas> `? corbin
16:27:10 <HackEso> corbin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:27:20 <b_jonas> as a regular, you'll soon need a wisdom under this name
16:53:19 <nakilon> ok made the workaround for ruby 2.3.8 against the 4 years old ruby core bug that does not happen until you install the gem
16:54:27 <nakilon> and fixed two things that changed between ruby 2.3 and 3.0 (two libraries are now have to be required or declared as dependencies explicitly)
16:54:57 <nakilon> so everything should work after: gem install rasel -v 1.1.2
16:55:54 <nakilon> `? defunge
16:55:56 <HackEso> defunge? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
16:55:59 <nakilon> `? befunge
16:56:00 <HackEso> In the Beginning was Befunge. And Befunge begot Fungot. And Fungot got Taneb. And Taneb tanebvented All the Things. Fnord.
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17:03:32 <nakilon> (I mean the bug was discovered and resolved 4 years ago, it's just ruby 2.3 that is old but I try to keep things this much compatible)
17:07:32 <nakilon> the IDE can be made as a separate tool; it just needs to call any fungeoid interpreter implementation that would emit the annotated log
17:08:28 <nakilon> and while it's made in the way that the server requires the RASEL library directly it can be changes to spawning a subprocess -- it would just need some more work around the errors handling and stuff
17:08:53 <nakilon> so it would allow any backend, not necessary ruby
17:09:14 <nakilon> *esolang backend
17:11:47 <nakilon> (you can see here the uncommitted version of caller code that I was making first, spawning the subprocess https://i.imgur.com/0gcMrPf.png but then I decided that why spawn if I can require the library directly)
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18:38:35 <esolangs> [[Trep]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87605 * TriMill * (+4361) Created page
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19:22:31 <Corbin> Is there a category for extra documentation or appendices? Stuff that would unduly clutter a language's main page, but should be included as supplementary material?
19:29:32 <esolangs> [[Esme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87606&oldid=80696 * Corbin * (-3) Move {{stub}} to top, remove deleted category, and add 2008 category.
19:33:52 <esolangs> [[FURscript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87607&oldid=11964 * Corbin * (-4) Add 2006 category, remove deleted category.
19:35:15 <esolangs> [[Snack]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87608&oldid=71934 * Corbin * (-22) Remove deleted category.
19:36:35 <esolangs> [[Golunar]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87609&oldid=79585 * Corbin * (-16) Change category from redlink "Usable for programming" to bluelink "Usable".
19:37:25 <esolangs> [[Boner++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87610&oldid=79854 * Corbin * (-16) Change category from redlink "Usable for programming" to bluelink "Usable".
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20:20:18 <nakilon> does it have to have a category?
20:27:41 <Corbin> I guess not.
20:47:55 <esolangs> [[Cammy/Bikeshed]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87611 * Corbin * (+4442) Start an appendix summarizing some research.
20:49:46 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87612&oldid=87435 * Corbin * (+62) /* Syntax */ Link to appendix with nomenclature.
21:12:55 <esolangs> [[User:TriMill]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87613&oldid=87594 * TriMill * (+103) Added contact information and most recent esolang
21:30:36 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87614&oldid=87612 * Corbin * (+1028) Include a section on paradigms; clean up external links, especially to WP.
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22:35:05 * nakilon reliased that there was no bug in Cloud Run and it was his fault of going the wrong URL path
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22:55:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87615&oldid=87592 * KakkoiiChris * (+381) /* Standard Library */ Added text functions
22:57:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87616&oldid=87615 * KakkoiiChris * (-54) /* System Functions */ Removed one layer of headers
23:06:24 <esolangs> [[Slam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87617 * ArthroStar11 * (+4389) created page and provided link to my interpreter
23:07:41 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87618&oldid=87553 * ArthroStar11 * (+11) added my language "Slam"
23:08:17 <Corbin> Hm. There should be a page discussing https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf, even if the taxonomy's not implemented.
23:08:32 <Corbin> And also a page discussing http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html since it's cited so much.
23:12:18 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87619&oldid=87616 * KakkoiiChris * (+170) /* Statements */ Added the flush statements
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23:20:21 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87620&oldid=87554 * ArthroStar11 * (+500)
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23:38:01 <oerjan> Corbin: the Shameful category is an inside joke, it was used but noncreated on purpose
23:38:46 <oerjan> basically, it's for languages that don't deserve to be found in categories
23:38:48 <esolangs> [[Esme]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87621&oldid=87606 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) Categorize
23:40:02 <esolangs> [[Category:Usable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87622&oldid=84875 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) U
23:40:03 <oerjan> or don't deserve to be known
23:42:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87623&oldid=87619 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) Moved Design Patterns section below System Functions section
23:44:59 <oerjan> <Corbin> And also a page discussing http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html since it's cited so much. <-- ooh is this something you added in the year i was gone
2021-08-26
00:12:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87624&oldid=87623 * KakkoiiChris * (-48) Removed wrong paradigm from info box
00:31:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87625&oldid=87624 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-34) /* Links */ Remove apparently outdated category
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00:39:04 <esolangs> [[Malfunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87626&oldid=87566 * ArthroStar11 * (+46)
00:45:33 <Corbin> oerjan: Oh, okay. I apologize, and I don't mind being reverted, but I wish that it were documented somewhere.
00:47:01 <Corbin> [[Tarski]] is an example page which cites that link. I guess that only one or two pages have it, so maybe it's not worth fleshing out.
00:47:22 <oerjan> ah.
00:48:30 <Corbin> Maybe I should just leave categories to PythonshellDebugwindow. They seem to know what to do.
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02:12:01 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * NeonDeveloper * New user account
02:20:16 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87627&oldid=87625 * KakkoiiChris * (+3) /* Design Patterns */ Edited caption
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07:55:07 <esolangs> [[Hello world program in esoteric languages (nonalphabetic and A-M)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87628&oldid=87585 * Dtuser1337 * (+43) /* Fishing */
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09:36:59 <nakilon> about the V=Ж: looks like it's also in the KOI-7 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOI-7#KOI-7_N2 and I spotted it in the 80s meme https://lurkmore.to/%D0%98%D0%9D%D0%96%D0%90%D0%9B%D0%98%D0%94_%D0%94%D0%95%D0%96%D0%98%D0%A6%D0%95
09:39:50 <nakilon> > `` echo 'INVALID DEVICE' | iconv -f KOI-7
09:39:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘`’
09:39:53 <nakilon> `` echo 'INVALID DEVICE' | iconv -f KOI-7
09:39:55 <HackEso> ​инжалид дежице
09:50:50 <int-e> `` iconv -t KOI-7 <<<АБВГДЕЖЗИЙКЛМНОПРСТУФХЦЧШЩЫЭЮЯабвгдежзийклмнопрстуфхцчшщъыьэюя
09:50:51 <HackEso> abwgdevzijklmnoprstufhc~{}y|`qABWGDEVZIJKLMNOPRSTUFHC^[]_YX\@Q
09:52:22 <nakilon> `` iconv -t KOI-7 <<<ЪЬ
09:52:23 <HackEso> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
09:53:04 <nakilon> `` iconv -t KOI-7 <<<Ь
09:53:05 <HackEso> x
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09:58:53 <nakilon> `` iconv -t KOI-7 <<<ёЁ
09:58:54 <HackEso> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
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12:41:26 <esolangs> [[BitZ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87629&oldid=70664 * Salpynx * (+9) /* Examples */ enlarge source graphic
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12:57:58 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/lktp91/oc_correct_graph_of_the_common_date_formats_with/
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16:17:58 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87630&oldid=87602 * Oshaboy * (+2859) The rest of the fucking wiki page.
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17:20:11 <shachaf> `smlist 526
17:20:13 <HackEso> smlist 526: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
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17:48:45 <shachaf> PLANET TO THE MOON 2: PLANET TO THE SUN - PART 1/9
18:28:33 <esolangs> [[Truthlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87631&oldid=87565 * Oshaboy * (+75)
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18:46:15 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87632&oldid=87630 * Oshaboy * (+37) clarification
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20:16:35 <xylochoron[m]> Hello
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22:11:52 <fizzie> Off-topic, but what on earth is an identifier that looks like "xxxxxxxx-xxxx-4xxx-8xxx"? It looks like a version 4 variant 1 UUID, but with the last 6 bytes / 48 bits missing, but is that really a thing? (I've only got one, so I don't know if that 4 is always a 4, or that 8 is always 8-b.)
22:18:34 <Deewiant> fizzie: Searching for "80-bit uuid" got me to https://reelyactive.github.io/diy/best-practices-ble-identifiers/ and hence https://github.com/google/eddystone/tree/master/eddystone-uid#elided-version-4-uuid — probably more likely that it's just a UUID that got truncated to a `char[24]` somewhere though
22:22:12 <fizzie> Hmm. Yeah, this was in a HTTP header.
22:22:31 <fizzie> I think I searched for "10-byte uuid", incidentally.
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23:21:05 <esolangs> [[XSVL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87633 * Threesodas * (+736) Created page with "XSVL (eXecutable Symbolic Value Lang) is a minimalist language similar to [[brainfuck]] where the syntax is swapped around a bit.<br> It is named XSVL because it uses symbols..."
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23:43:19 <earendel> fizzie: wich header was it?
23:53:32 <fizzie> A custom one "x-foo-id" kind of one.
2021-08-27
00:09:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Clive * New user account
00:19:39 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87634&oldid=87579 * Clive * (+330) Clive added an intro to Clive
00:22:10 <esolangs> [[User:Clive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87635 * Clive * (+67) Created page with "[https://eigenratios.blogspot.com Eigenratios of Self Interpreters]"
00:24:38 <oerjan> ooh
00:29:53 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87636&oldid=86266 * Clive * (+36) Changed URL for my self-interpreter to copy on web.archive.org ~~~~
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00:38:47 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87637&oldid=87636 * Oerjan * (-18) /* Self-interpreters */ Use template
00:40:41 <esolangs> [[User talk:Clive]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87638 * Oerjan * (+150) Hi!
00:43:26 <esolangs> [[XSVL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87639&oldid=87633 * ArthroStar11 * (+213) Gave link to my interpreter and added some missing categories
00:49:45 <esolangs> [[User:ArthroStar11]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87640&oldid=87620 * ArthroStar11 * (+301)
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00:56:42 <Corbin> Hm. Has anybody done an "esolang critic" sort of series, along the same lines as Conlang Critic?
01:01:08 <zzo38> How does Conlang Critic working?
01:03:04 <oerjan> languages working exactly like English :: brainfuck derivatives
01:04:14 <oerjan> or maybe equivalents
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01:07:18 <zzo38> O, OK, I think I can understand how you mean, and I also think it would mean equivalents probably
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01:23:21 <esolangs> [[XSVL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87641&oldid=87639 * Threesodas * (+156)
01:24:25 <esolangs> [[XSVL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87642&oldid=87641 * Threesodas * (+25)
01:42:48 <esolangs> [[XSVL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87643&oldid=87642 * ArthroStar11 * (+11) clarified my interp needs download and building, also updated interp to be compliant with new specification
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05:39:39 <esolangs> [[User:ColorfulGalaxy (disambiguation)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87644&oldid=84712 * ColorfulGalaxy * (+95) Profile at fandom wiki
06:28:55 <riv> o./
06:40:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Slam]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87645 * ArthroStar11 * (+1032) Created page with "== Observations from Creator == Due to the fact that the language only gives special meaning to space and newline, treating all other characters normally; there exists a subse..."
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06:54:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: an MD5 sum?
06:54:53 <b_jonas> no wait, MD5 is 128 bit long
06:55:02 <b_jonas> n idea then
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09:52:07 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87646&oldid=83616 * Clive * (+78) Changed URLs for my BF self-interpreters to copy on web.archive.org -- cannot figure out the template method for this case!
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10:33:28 <nakilon> imagine that string to be just a fully random list of characters but the hypens randomly arranged into positions like in UUID
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12:46:24 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87647&oldid=87646 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-45) Wayback
12:46:56 <esolangs> [[EsoInterpreters]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87648&oldid=87647 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+45) Undo revision 87647 by [[Special:Contributions/PythonshellDebugwindow|PythonshellDebugwindow]] ([[User talk:PythonshellDebugwindow|talk]])
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14:45:08 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87649&oldid=87112 * Martsadas * (+30)
14:58:44 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87650&oldid=87649 * Martsadas * (+298) comments
15:09:30 <sebbu> nakilon, ah yeah, isbn have the same issue with spaces (or hyphens) instead of just hyphens
15:10:23 <sebbu> (moreover, recent isbn are all 10 or 13 digits, but old ones aren't, and they might not even be unique as they were different tracking organisms)
15:10:59 <sebbu> (oh, and digital-only books might not have isbn at all, even if they offer to print them and send them to you in paper version)
15:12:47 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87651&oldid=87618 * Martsadas * (+20) Added Smileyface
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15:21:47 <esolangs> [[FFRISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87652&oldid=87632 * Martsadas * (+1) Fixed typos in the categories list
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17:11:42 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fmbalbuena * New user account
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20:19:22 <esolangs> [[User:Threesodas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87653&oldid=82442 * Threesodas * (-100)
21:16:33 <riv> uh
21:16:34 <riv> oh
21:16:35 <riv> ok
21:16:48 <riv> i didn not know that there is a hidden bit in floating point
21:16:51 <riv> TIL
21:32:52 <esolangs> [[R.e.s.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87654&oldid=72701 * Clive * (+197) Added link to some recovered r.e.s. files.
21:49:33 <shachaf> A hidden bit?
21:49:46 <shachaf> Like the bit in a file system marking whether a file is hidden?
21:50:27 <riv> no
22:12:58 * nakilon just spent another evening confirming that there is still no better alternative to graphviz dot
22:16:10 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/eKhLkh6.png why can't it move the "XML pot hemlet" with "canning pot" to the very right? and then move the "makeshift antiseptic" under the edge between the "Molotov" and "glass bottle"...
22:18:08 <nakilon> looks like dot is just unable to make the edges longer for the purpose of eliminating the edge crossings at all
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22:58:57 <nakilon> hmmmm imagine that there is a node A that has several parent nodes Bi and each of them has a child node Ci -- once i > 2 it is guaranteed that dot will make crossing edges
22:59:54 <nakilon> so I took a "rag" node in my graph that has the above property of "node A" and marked all A-Bi nodes as [minlen=2] so dot would be able to fit the Ci without a crossing
23:02:20 <nakilon> and looks like it really works: here is how the problem looked like - https://i.imgur.com/iC2Yzdk.png - and now it's untangled https://i.imgur.com/H5BstCu.png
23:08:36 <nakilon> the only problem is to differ A from C in mixed cases
23:16:40 <nakilon> actually you don't have to enlarge all the A-Bi edges but only n-2 of them and have to chose somehow
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23:44:56 <zzo38> Is there the graph layout software that can be called from PostScript? I would want to do my own code for providing the data and then also rendering it afterward, using the layout which will be the result
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2021-08-28
00:28:25 <esolangs> [[F]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87655&oldid=40961 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Cat
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01:17:13 <nakilon> hm, I guess the minlen=2 isn't enough https://i.imgur.com/L5T53Pa.png here the edge "torch"-"plank" should have the length of 3 to make the "denaturated alcohol" hit somewhere higher thank "plank" -- that means the minlen should be increases recursively
01:17:31 <nakilon> *fit somewhere
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02:06:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87656&oldid=87627 * KakkoiiChris * (+23) /* REPL */ Updated REPL output format
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02:17:16 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87657&oldid=87656 * KakkoiiChris * (+266) /* REPL */ Added an input that produces an error
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02:36:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rjcodesandtech * New user account
03:03:33 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87658&oldid=87657 * KakkoiiChris * (+3446) /* Flags */ Added the debug flag
03:11:49 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87659&oldid=87658 * KakkoiiChris * (+348) /* REPL */ Functionality was updated and elaborated on
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03:45:33 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87660 * PixelatedStarfish * (+61) Created page with "[[File:wheeee.png|thumb|Logo by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] ]]"
03:48:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Wheeee.jpeg]]"
03:49:36 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87662&oldid=87660 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
03:51:43 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87663&oldid=87662 * PixelatedStarfish * (+95)
03:51:52 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87664&oldid=87663 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
03:58:54 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87665&oldid=87664 * PixelatedStarfish * (+346)
04:03:35 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87666&oldid=87665 * PixelatedStarfish * (+467)
04:04:23 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87667&oldid=87666 * PixelatedStarfish * (-4) /* Commands */
04:05:05 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87668&oldid=87667 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34) /* Commands */
04:08:38 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87669&oldid=87668 * PixelatedStarfish * (+106) /* Commands */
04:10:24 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87670&oldid=87669 * PixelatedStarfish * (+62) /* Commands */
04:11:07 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87671&oldid=87670 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8) /* Commands */
04:11:37 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87672&oldid=87671 * PixelatedStarfish * (-3)
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04:14:11 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87673&oldid=87672 * PixelatedStarfish * (+438) /* Grammar */
04:15:28 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87674&oldid=87673 * PixelatedStarfish * (+102) /* Operations */
04:15:51 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87675&oldid=87674 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
04:16:10 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87676&oldid=87675 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grammar */
04:16:22 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87677&oldid=87676 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
04:16:33 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87678&oldid=87677 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Truth Machine */
04:17:14 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87679&oldid=87678 * PixelatedStarfish * (+74)
04:17:59 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87680&oldid=87679 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Random Number (0-9) */
04:20:42 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87681&oldid=87680 * PixelatedStarfish * (+62) /* Operations */
06:14:16 <riv> http://home.kpn.nl/jhm.bonten/computers/bitsandbytes/wordsizes/hidbit.htm
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13:33:28 <nakilon> \help
13:33:28 <velik> available commands: ["rasel", "morse", "demorse"]; usage help: \help <cmd>
13:46:10 <nakilon> riv the name reminded me the 25% free space in .BMP files
13:51:14 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87682&oldid=85673 * Nakilon * (-72) disabled \ruby until I find a proper way to protect it from issuing an outgoing network requests
13:54:42 <fizzie> Aw. Another esolangs.org registration email got rejected as spam. :/
13:57:41 <pikhq> :/
13:57:52 <int-e> hmmm... it has no spf txt record, that might be an issue these days
13:58:45 <fizzie> Yeah, maybe. I did the whole DMARC, DKIM, SPF set for my own domain (zem.fi), maybe I should try to replicate that for esolangs.org too.
13:59:44 <esolangs> [[Velik]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87683&oldid=87682 * Nakilon * (+26) corrected [wiki] syntax explanation -- it uses \s+, not :
14:00:34 <fizzie> There's also a support link in this rejection email that leads to a form that lets you claim it's not spam (and say approximately how many emails a month you expect to send), not sure if that's worth filling.
14:00:46 <fizzie> (Or at least that's what I think it was all about based on Google Translate.)
14:04:32 <esolangs> [[User:PythonshellDebugwindow/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87684&oldid=83751 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) ""
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14:23:11 <nakilon> fizzie looks like you stopped posting to your blog after getting the current job
14:25:11 <fizzie> Pretty much, yes. Every now and then I think "hmm, maybe I should write up something in there", but the longer it's been, the sillier it seems to restart.
14:35:05 <nakilon> the recursively increased [minlen] untangled almost everything https://i.imgur.com/WhNP4tx.png -- now it's mostly only dot's fault of chosing the wrong nodes order within the layer; but the tool `unflatten` that is supposed to fix it only messes even more now
14:37:02 <nakilon> probably I can release a "dot prettifier" tool that would do the minlen hack and merge similar nodes as I also did here (nodes that have the same list of parents and children get merges with labels joined with \n)
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15:26:22 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87685&oldid=87681 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Grammar in EBNF */
15:50:08 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87686&oldid=87685 * PixelatedStarfish * (+585) /* Random Number (0-9) */
15:52:05 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87687&oldid=87686 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Proof of Turing completeness */
15:53:03 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87688&oldid=87687 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Grammar in EBNF */
15:59:56 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87689&oldid=87688 * PixelatedStarfish * (+373)
16:06:51 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87690&oldid=87689 * PixelatedStarfish * (+196)
16:07:29 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87691&oldid=87690 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* Memory */
16:07:54 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87692&oldid=87691 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
16:12:03 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87693&oldid=87692 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
16:15:05 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87694&oldid=87524 * PixelatedStarfish * (+87) /* Broken Calculator */
16:16:00 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87695&oldid=87694 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Wheel */
16:17:22 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87696&oldid=87693 * PixelatedStarfish * (+92) /* External Links */
16:17:42 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87697&oldid=87696 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8) /* External Links */
16:17:53 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87698&oldid=87697 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
16:18:19 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87699&oldid=87698 * PixelatedStarfish * (-41)
16:24:51 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87700&oldid=87695 * PixelatedStarfish * (-13) /* Wheel */
16:25:48 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87701&oldid=87700 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Wheel */
16:26:55 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87702&oldid=87701 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) /* Wheel */
16:28:48 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87703&oldid=87532 * PixelatedStarfish * (+17) /* Wheat */
16:28:59 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87704&oldid=87703 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* Wheel */
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18:14:30 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87705&oldid=87702 * PixelatedStarfish * (+305) /* Esolangs */
18:15:15 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87706&oldid=87705 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Plans */
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18:32:54 <esolangs> [[Do-if]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87707 * Martsadas * (+276) Created page with "Do-if is an esolang created by [[User:Martsadas]] which uses do-if and do-while PRINT {'Hello, World!\n'} let $X = 0 do PRINT {'Hello world ', $X, '!\n"} while $X < 10 le..."
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18:39:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87708&oldid=87634 * Fmbalbuena * (+97)
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21:12:27 <zzo38> Are Lisp and PostScript the most homoiconic programming languages?
21:18:28 <riv> tcl and prolog too
21:23:03 <zzo38> OK. I don't know much about them, but maybe it is
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21:35:09 <Corbin> zzo38: How would we measure it? Normally homoiconicity is talked about as a binary property. I'm not opposed to the idea, but not sure how you're doing it.
21:36:35 <zzo38> Corbin: I am not really sure, although considering that there are many different things that different programming languages do, certainly they are not the same, whether you say they are homoiconic or not.
21:38:11 <Corbin> zzo38: By "binary property" I mean that "is a language homoiconic" is similar to "can a language be parsed by a context-free grammar"; the answer shouldn't be on a scale, just a yes or no. But I'm very open to the discussion.
21:43:10 <zzo38> One thing to start with is to have a definition which you ca be sure to apply that you can determine which programming language is and isn't. (Actually, even if the case of context-free grammer, there is cases of preprocessors which might tarnsform the code into one that is even if the original one isn't, or where a meaningless superset is parseable by a context-free grammar and then you can easily exclude the ones that don't work)
21:49:17 <Corbin> We can make it rigorous by appealing to computational complexity theory and talking about "reductions", but that's a lot of effort. Maybe there's example languages which are "more" and "less" homoiconic?
21:55:31 <zzo38> Yes it would be a lot of effort, although if you did that then perhaps it would be a binary property. Wikipedia gives examples of homoiconic programming languages including Lisp, Prolog, and Rebol. PostScript is not listed, even though some programmers consider it to be so.
21:57:38 <zzo38> Wikipedia does list XSLT. I know that XSLT is XML-based and operates on XML, but I don't know if XSLT has a command to execute a XML data that it has manipulated as a XSLT program.
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22:21:14 <zzo38> In PostScript, tokens are objects (the exception is the "immediately evaluated name" token, which is variable), and objects are executable, as well as being usable as data. Executing a procedure is just executing each one in sequence.
22:30:01 <Corbin> I think it's worth noting that some languages, like Julia and E, have a sort of forced homoiconicity; the languages have a bunch of primitive types, and that includes an entire type just for ASTs.
22:30:30 <Corbin> This is to be contrasted with the "natural" usage of pairs in Lisp, I guess.
22:33:36 <zzo38> Yes, that is one difference of some programming language.
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14:07:05 <Melvar> I had a discussion of homoiconicity elsewhere recently, and we couldn’t find any decent definition that wasn’t just “the language supports data structures expressive enough to represent an AST of itself”.
14:07:53 <riv> it's not just that you can represent the AST in the language
14:08:10 <riv> you also need a quotation operator that lets you get the AST in the same syntax as the language itself
14:08:46 <riv> e.g. in lisp '(+ 1 1) for (+ 1 1) whereas in c some horrible (struct bintree){ blah blah } thing for 1+1 is not homoiconic
14:09:04 <Melvar> So “homoiconic” means “has a quote operator”?
14:09:11 <riv> what?
14:10:05 <Corbin> Melvar: It means that the language hosts an embedding of its own syntax, interpreted as its own type: a type of program literals.
14:10:41 <riv> it doesn't need to be typed
14:10:50 <Melvar> Since a quote operator implies being able to represent the AST, “AST and quotation operator” is equivalent to just “quotation operator”.
14:10:59 <Corbin> Many folks also think that the language needs to have an eval() primitive, so that those program literals can be interpreted at runtime. Many languages are flexible enough to implement eval(), but that's optional.
14:11:25 <Corbin> riv: It's going to be typed according to the native type theory, even if the language claims to have no type system. Some inputs to eval() won't be legal.
14:11:52 <Melvar> > runQ [| 1 + 1 |]
14:11:54 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:7: error: parse error on input ‘|’
14:11:58 <Melvar> Aw.
14:11:59 <riv> why is type systems still a topic of debate
14:18:50 <Melvar> Basically, when people bring up homoiconicity as a benefit, my impression is that the actually-important things are: a macro system (otherwise manipulating ASTs has limited utility), enough quotation ability to apply the macro system to literal code, and possibly: A simple enough syntax to make manipulating ASTs take few cases, and/or this property I came up with:
14:19:09 <Melvar> “all data values in the language are also valid ASTs of the language.”
14:23:32 <Corbin> Macro systems are not necessary. After all, if ASTs are plain values, then the language's native procedures/functions/etc. should suffice for manipulating them.
14:24:46 <myname> yeah, i don't need macros to add two numbers, why would i need macros to merge two ASTs
14:24:50 <Melvar> What I’m saying is not that you need a macro system to manipulate ASTs, I’m saying that manipulating ASTs is not widely useful unless you can splice the resulting AST into your program.
14:25:30 <myname> why would you need macros for that instead of just functions?
14:26:00 <Corbin> Sure. Languages with multiple forms (expressions, statements, procedures, exports, etc.) might need multiple ways to do that splicing, not just eval().
14:26:15 <Melvar> If your language is purely interpreted, splicing is equivalent to having an eval primitive.
14:26:44 <myname> oh, that depends on what eval means in this context imho
14:26:47 <Melvar> If it’s compiled, “eval” would be a misnomer in my book.
14:26:56 <myname> for me, eval is something that evaluates a string
14:27:38 <Melvar> It can evaluate a string or an AST, but that string or AST can be runtime data. A splice is a compile-time operation if you have a compile time.
14:27:44 <Corbin> "eval" is just the traditional name. What matters is that it takes AST fragments and evaluates them within a context. When the quotation system has symmetry, then "unquote" is a good name. "splice" is a good description of how some systems work.
14:28:07 <Corbin> myname: In E and relatives, eval() can take either an AST or a string; the string is simply parsed to an AST in the latter case.
14:32:39 <Melvar> Haskell+TemplateHaskell does not provide an interpreter, but a compile-time-only splice operation, which means to run the action in it at compile time and replace the splice with the resulting AST, which is then compiled as though it had been there from the start.
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14:53:40 <Corbin> Melvar: I'd say that that's sufficient, because of a Haskell-specific nit. Go's another language with this nit. In Haskell and Go, expressions given at the REPL are only for a fragment of the language, and the language's semantics are really only defined for entire programs. So even if it feels like we're talking about interpreted concepts, the practical implementations have to be compiled.
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15:09:52 <Melvar> Hm. Can you give an example of such a fragment limitation for ghci?
15:16:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87728&oldid=84072 * Fmbalbuena * (+11)
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15:20:38 <ais523> I'm not convinced that Prolog has a quote operator
15:21:07 <Corbin> With GHC 8.10, the REPL seems to humor me if I try to define a module, like with `module Foo where`, but doesn't actually create a new module. Since Haskell doesn't have first-class modules, I wouldn't expect this to be easy.
15:21:28 <ais523> I agree that it's homoiconic, but it's more like things are quoted by default and get dequoted in a controlled way at runtime
15:23:22 <ais523> I think OCaml's repl supports module operations, but they are first-class there
15:23:53 <Corbin> Melvar: To use the parlance of the Haskell Report, the REPL has an environment, and modules each have an environment too. But that's not all that the syntax allows during compilation; it also allows for a module to *export* things from its environment.
15:24:41 <Corbin> In general, lots of languages are built this way, where there's an "expression language" on the inside and a "module language" on the outside.
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15:26:41 <ais523> I'm trying to remember whether Rust lets you declare a module inside a function
15:26:51 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if it does
15:27:14 <ais523> OTOH, Rust modules are basically just visibility barriers, so this wouldn't be that useful
15:30:32 <Corbin> My Monte language only allows modules at the beginning of files, but this is entirely because the parser is handwritten and fixing it would be a lot of effort. A Monte module is just a plain old object which happens to implement a simple interface, though.
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16:09:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Fmbalbuena]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87729&oldid=87717 * Fmbalbuena * (-11)
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17:48:29 <fizzie> Bah. dkimvalidator.com's result for an esolangs.org email now says "result = pass" in the actual DKIM check, but "DKIM_INVALID - DKIM or DK signature exists, but is not valid" in the SpamAssassin assessment.
18:18:54 <fizzie> (Go has a REPL?)
18:21:33 <Corbin> There have been several REPLs. https://github.com/golobby/repl for example. They assemble an entire Go program and call the compiler in the background.
18:22:41 <fizzie> Well, yes, of course people have written third-party REPL-like things. The discussion just made it sound like there's an official one.
18:26:45 <Corbin> Oh, sorry. FWIW there's no REPL in the Haskell Report either; GHC's REPL is not official.
18:32:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't like homoiconic languages, but if you want them, you should consider Amicus
18:32:20 <Melvar> What would defining a module in a repl even mean?
18:33:09 <b_jonas> I personally prefer lisp as if it weren't homoiconic, without a quote operator, and in particular, olvashato has syntax similar to lisp but without a quote operator (or eval)
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18:37:56 <Melvar> I suppose it would make sense if your repl were an interface to a persistent environment, rather than holding its own.
18:38:17 <b_jonas> in fact I'd be satisfied even with a low-level CPU architecture that isn't homoiconic as far as user software goes, as in, user mode software sees data and code as entirely separate things, you can't read or write code, and you can ask a combination of the CPU and the OS to copy/compile code from a data segment to a possibly slightly different CPU-dependent format into a code segment. the hardware and
18:38:23 <b_jonas> the OS would still have to know that code is allocated into normal RAM, so that the OS can split ordinary RAM from the same DDR4 RAM chips split into code memory, data memory (and paging tables and whatever system stuff is needed, and possibly some GPU nonsense)
18:40:44 <b_jonas> as for macros, they shouldn't be necessary, but the problem is, our template and generic systems are never expressive enough, so in the end there's always something for which we need macros, even if we rarely dirty our hands with them and enclose them all into modules that export well-behaved abstractions
18:42:36 <b_jonas> but if I do have macros, I want them to not work as manipulating data, because I want macros to run only during compile time, and full capability data manipulation only at runtime, though there'll be some core data manipulation behind them because I want macro and runtime alike to add or less-than small integers. and this is indeed what modern languages do.
18:43:15 <b_jonas> `"eval" is just the traditional name.` => yeah. python and lua call them something else.
18:43:17 <HackEso> ​"eval"? No such file or directory
18:43:29 <b_jonas> we can still call the concept "eval" just fine
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18:46:00 <b_jonas> ais523: I believe rust lets you do that, but you rarely want to, because anything you declare inside a function you usually can't name from outside the function
18:47:11 <zzo38> I think homoiconic can be helpful for some kind of interpreted programming languages, but when doing compiled programming it is not as good. PostScript has a "executeonly" command to prevent reading/writing a procedure; I don't know if any implementation is capable of automatically optimizing a procedure when executeonly is used.
18:47:49 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Pyrotelekinetic * New user account
18:54:37 <zzo38> How is "all data values in the language are also valid ASTs of the language"? (I think this is true of XML)
19:00:00 <Melvar> I had Lisp in mind.
19:00:35 <Melvar> At least some of the more basic lisps.
19:02:34 <zzo38> O, OK.
19:06:30 <Melvar> It’s true that it’s not actually “all”, but what I’m getting at is that there’s one data structure that’s used for nearly everything, including to represent nontrivial ASTs.
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19:07:05 <b_jonas> Melvar: then I still recommend Amicus. there's one data structure that represents code, lists, integers
19:07:35 <zzo38> In PostScript any object can be executed, although if it is not executable (whether or not it is executable is independent of its type, and it can be changed) then it is just pushed to the operand stack instead (so anything is allowed as a part of a procedure). They are not always inspectable; an operator object can only be executed or compared for equality (so you can check whether or not two operators match)
19:07:47 <b_jonas> you can't tell in advance which one something in the program is supposed to be, you can only observe how it gets used, and the same thing in the program could get reused as more than one of those
19:07:52 <zzo38> But, yes, Amicus does have only one type (numbers) which is also the type of the program.
19:07:57 <b_jonas> it's all untyped
19:10:56 <zzo38> So, I suppose Amicus is the most homoiconic one
19:11:24 <b_jonas> it's all untyped
19:11:32 <b_jonas> um, sorry for the repeat
19:12:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: not necessarily, some of the low-level CPUs also have just one main memory and you can treat values in them as code, numbers, pointers
19:13:00 <zzo38> Yes, although they don't have data structures, I think
19:13:08 <b_jonas> especially back in the 6502 days when RAM and CPU were synchronized to a megahertz or two, and caching wasn't a thing yet
19:13:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: they have about as many data structures for data and code, so I think it still counts
19:14:14 <b_jonas> there are 16-bit integers in both cases
19:14:25 <b_jonas> well, more like 16-bit pointers
19:14:48 <b_jonas> well
19:15:02 <b_jonas> maybe z80 would be a better example for that sort of thing
19:15:07 <b_jonas> or one of those motorolas
19:15:53 <zzo38> I do know how to do 6502 programming, though
19:16:22 <b_jonas> do you know Amicus programming? nobody wrote more than a few very short example programs for it I think
19:16:48 <zzo38> Not very well, but by reading the documentation I can see how it works
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19:58:48 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87730&oldid=84403 * Timwi * (+315) Problem creating account
19:59:02 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87731&oldid=71512 * Timwi * (+315) Problem creating account
20:01:44 <fizzie> Hmm.
20:02:05 <fizzie> Someone did manage to create an account just recently, so that's odd.
20:02:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * JakkOfKlubs * New user account
20:04:38 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87732&oldid=87731 * Timwi * (+261) /* Problem creating account */
20:04:52 <esolangs> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87733&oldid=87730 * Timwi * (+261) /* Problem creating account */
20:06:18 <fizzie> Hrm. No swap, eh?
20:06:26 <int-e> Oh just a cut&paste accident, nothing to see here, move on.
20:06:42 <int-e> Next time it'll be another character.
20:07:57 <int-e> Ah, I don't know. Maybe Discord (which apparently has a befunge-capable bot?) is important enough to support that way
20:08:44 <fizzie> For the record, the CAPTCHA program is of the form 9xxxxxxxxx>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ where the x's are base-9 digits (0-8).
20:10:14 <int-e> hmm, I wonder what discord is doing... is that a quoting mechanism, or is it really stripping backslashs?
20:10:24 <int-e> if it's the former you can use \\\
20:12:06 <b_jonas> I still haven't figured out how to quote formatting characters on Discord. I even looked at their help pages.
20:12:36 <int-e> `` cat <<<\\\#
20:12:37 <HackEso> ​\#
20:13:11 <int-e> I largely pretend that Discord doesn't exist
20:14:24 <b_jonas> I don't.
20:14:58 <b_jonas> but I also don't think feel like we're required to change our captcha just because some interface to an interpreter doesn't like it
20:16:25 <fizzie> I guess \\\ would work (assuming that's what it turns into), though it is a little silly, especially since in both of those cases it's in the bidirectional section, so it'd end up doing five swaps in a row on the left-edge bounce for example.
20:16:35 <fizzie> Historically we've changed it when it stops working.
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20:17:03 <b_jonas> next we'll have to change our code to not contain a less than signs followed by a letter (without a space between) just because that one webpage with the J interpreter refuses it saying you can't put HTML tags into your code because XSS or whatever
20:17:20 <int-e> b_jonas: see above, my gut reaction was not to bother
20:17:37 <b_jonas> but if there are a lot of people coming from discord, then sure we can fix it, or add an alternate captcha mechanism that they can use
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20:18:00 <int-e> The \\\ idea came later and seemed cute enough to mention.
20:18:07 <fizzie> I could probably just add a "mind the slashes" warning on the page.
20:18:17 <b_jonas> would a \\\ actually work?
20:18:55 <int-e> If I understood fizzie correctly, even \\ would work... on the Befunge side.
20:19:56 <int-e> b_jonas: No clue about the Discord side; you seem to be the most knowledgable on that front.
20:20:11 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe, but I've no idea how or why it even affects backslashes
20:20:22 <b_jonas> or how the befunge interpreter reads it or anything
20:23:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87734&oldid=87723 * JakkOfKlubs * (+139)
20:23:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * JakkOfKlubs * uploaded "[[File:Efghij FANTA function.jpg]]": The FANTA (Fibonacci) function programmed in Efghij, made by JakkOfKlubs
20:24:40 <arseniiv> do you know any channels about conlanging/conscripting/conworlding?
20:24:42 <esolangs> [[Efghij]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87736&oldid=81988 * JakkOfKlubs * (+1410) - Added FANTA.
20:25:27 <esolangs> [[Efghij]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87737&oldid=87736 * JakkOfKlubs * (+44) - FANTA fix.
20:27:40 <esolangs> [[Efghij]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87738&oldid=87737 * JakkOfKlubs * (+79)
20:32:25 <fizzie> Hmm. On the topic of just warning about slashes, seems that the CAPTCHA help texts (the in-line description and the linked-to [[Special:Captcha/help]] page) aren't easily editable. Unless there's a convenient way to customize localized strings somewhere. And I couldn't do that for all the 74 translations, anyway.
20:32:27 <fizzie> (Although AFAICT you can't even get the interface in a different language unless you've managed to create an account already, since we don't have Extension:LanguageSelector installed.)
20:33:55 <fizzie> Well, modulo adding ?uselang=X in the URL, I guess.
20:36:11 <fizzie> Oh, I guess all those strings (for the content language) are editable by changing content in the MediaWiki: namespace. Funky.
20:42:39 <esolangs> [[MediaWiki:Questycaptcha-createaccount]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87739 * Fizzie * (+347) Warn about backslashes, and also link to the Befunge article.
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21:06:03 <b_jonas> yes, we won't translate everything to every language ever
21:06:17 <b_jonas> we have like a dozen translations of the `welcome
21:07:42 <b_jonas> ``` /hackenv/bin/t*v*u*a*
21:07:45 <HackEso> Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric joko EFnet- tai Dalnet-verkossa.)
21:09:14 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Fl welcome.es /hackenv/bin
21:09:15 <HackEso> grep: /hackenv/bin: Is a directory
21:09:19 <b_jonas> ``` grep -Fl welcome.es /hackenv/bin/*
21:09:21 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/bienvenido
21:09:27 <b_jonas> `bienvenido
21:09:29 <HackEso> ​¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: <https://esolangs.org/>. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
21:15:50 <fizzie> According to netsplit.de, there's still an #esoteric on DALnet but with only one user (registered 2021-06-16, topic "chat about anything esoteric"), and none on EFnet.
21:18:15 <fizzie> Oh, no, it's just a bad search. Yes, the EFnet one seems "right" (if that's the word).
21:19:30 <fizzie> (35 users and a "promising" topic.)
21:21:14 <b_jonas> I don't think I've ever joined DALnet. it's not in my IRC config, and that thing goes way back in history
21:22:13 <b_jonas> it has freenode, which is now three non-networks or something, and the freenode test servers, which only existed for two "short" (as IRC history goes) periods, and mozilla, which existed for a pretty long time until they destroyed it
21:25:28 <fizzie> I used to hang out on a DALnet channel or two, but I've even forgotten their names.
21:28:02 <fizzie> My "main" IRC log directory has just `auth`, `fizzie` and `nickserv` subdirectories under `dalnet`, all of which have only two files (2005-06.log, 2005-07.log), which I think means at that time I accidentally reconnected to DALnet but did not have any autojoin channels.
21:29:10 <fizzie> Someone else had registered my name on DALnet, it would appear from one of those files.
21:30:30 <fizzie> Hmm, ~/archive/backup/older/colin/old2/irclogs/DALnet has a few channel logs as well.
21:30:38 <b_jonas> somehow "b_jonas" isn't a very valuable nick. I could get it almost everywhere. not on github, but I think on github it's an old account that I created at some point and I've no idea how
21:31:39 <fizzie> "fizzie" is moderately hard to grab, at least in more "mainstream" services.
21:32:34 <fizzie> Only one of the four channel logs have any discussion in them, so I think the other three are IRCnet channels where I accidentally typed /join in the wrong network.
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22:57:16 <nakilon> archive/backup/older -- what will be the next .../ prefix?
23:04:14 <nakilon> I have one called "hitachi" because it was a hitachi drive that died
23:10:46 <esolangs> [[Dc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87740&oldid=81545 * TheJonyMyster * (-1) removed comma after last adjective in adjective chain
23:16:44 <fizzie> "colin" is there because it was the hostname of a former computer.
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23:38:36 <esolangs> [[Efghij]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87741&oldid=87738 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) Category
2021-08-30
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00:19:16 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87742 * PixelatedStarfish * (+369) Created page with "Vessel (Virtual machinE Simulating Stack and QueuE Language) is a language designed by [[User PixelatedStarfish]] in 2021. As the name suggests, the language is desig..."
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00:21:40 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87743&oldid=87742 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
00:23:20 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87744&oldid=87743 * PixelatedStarfish * (+9)
00:24:57 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87745&oldid=87744 * PixelatedStarfish * (-12)
00:36:44 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87746&oldid=87745 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2194)
00:38:55 <shachaf> fizzie: A computery guy?
00:43:59 <fizzie> What's a computery guy?
00:44:32 <shachaf> Colin the computer.
00:45:23 <shachaf> https://youtube.com/watch?v=G9FGgwCQ22w
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00:55:30 <fizzie> Oh. No, it was back when I had a naming scheme from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
00:55:37 <fizzie> Colin, of course, is the security robot Ford meets and befriends (well, rewires) at the Guide headquarters in Mostly Harmless, named after the dog of a girl he used to know.
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00:59:09 <esolangs> [[User talk:Oerjan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87747&oldid=87732 * Oerjan * (+86) I think both of these are resolved, but I like to know when things were posted
01:01:43 <fizzie> (That was kind of scary.)
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01:22:03 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87748&oldid=87746 * PixelatedStarfish * (-190)
01:29:27 <shachaf> By design, I think.
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03:01:06 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87749&oldid=87748 * PixelatedStarfish * (+290) /* Commands */
03:03:17 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87750&oldid=87749 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6)
03:04:52 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87751&oldid=87750 * PixelatedStarfish * (+100)
03:34:53 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87752&oldid=87751 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1107) /* Commands */
03:46:34 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87753&oldid=87752 * PixelatedStarfish * (-282) /* Commands */
03:48:13 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87754&oldid=87753 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* Commands */
04:01:25 <esolangs> [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87755&oldid=77524 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25)
04:08:02 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87756&oldid=87536 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28) /* External Links */
04:30:27 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87757&oldid=87754 * PixelatedStarfish * (+785)
04:31:09 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87758&oldid=87757 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar */
04:31:24 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87759&oldid=87758 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Grammar */
04:31:46 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87760&oldid=87759 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Grammar */
04:32:52 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87761&oldid=87760 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar */
04:33:17 <esolangs> [[Broken Calculator]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87762&oldid=87756 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Grammar in EBNF */
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06:02:46 <esolangs> [[Grue]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87763 * PixelatedStarfish * (+976) Created page with "This language is both impossible to describe and program in. Thankfully, the associated metalanguage is not quite so esoteric. Grue is named for the creatures that consume ad..."
06:03:08 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87764&oldid=87763 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* The Metalanguage */
06:03:21 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87765&oldid=87764 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* =Syntax */
06:04:02 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87766&oldid=87765 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8) /* The Metalanguage */
06:07:00 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87767&oldid=87766 * PixelatedStarfish * (+33) /* Syntax */
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07:22:27 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87768&oldid=87767 * PixelatedStarfish * (+664) /* Syntax */
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08:25:46 <wib_jonas> I have used directory names of the name of the previous systems, yes. But also plain "old" or "bkp". Some files are categorized by year numbers, most importantly my photos. I also have a few photos taken by family, those are sorted by who took them instead.
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08:39:29 <hanif> last time i had a discussion on homoiconicity, i found https://users.sussex.ac.uk/~mfb21/publications/mp-slides/slides.pdf that formalised the notion a bit
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12:05:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87769&oldid=87716 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+11) /* G */ .
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12:17:37 <esolangs> [[Grue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87770&oldid=87768 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+120) Categorize
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14:44:22 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87771&oldid=87770 * PixelatedStarfish * (-120) /* Syntax */
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15:03:28 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87772&oldid=87771 * PixelatedStarfish * (+59)
15:05:41 <Melvar> hanif: Thank you, that’s very interesting.
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16:05:22 <shachaf> int-e: You might enjoy https://toombler.itch.io/secure
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16:14:21 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87773&oldid=87772 * PixelatedStarfish * (+419)
16:15:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Iamwhoiami.png]]"
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16:25:15 <fizzie> I got confused at 7/17.
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16:37:59 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87775&oldid=87773 * PixelatedStarfish * (+16)
16:38:30 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87776&oldid=87775 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6)
16:39:09 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87777&oldid=87776 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3)
16:40:10 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87778&oldid=87777 * PixelatedStarfish * (-60)
16:44:08 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87779&oldid=87778 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35)
16:45:00 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87780&oldid=87779 * PixelatedStarfish * (-14)
16:46:29 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87781&oldid=87780 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
16:47:42 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87782&oldid=87781 * PixelatedStarfish * (-3)
16:52:52 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87783&oldid=87782 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
17:07:01 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87784&oldid=87783 * PixelatedStarfish * (+101)
17:07:13 <int-e> shachaf: hmm. anti-sokoban
17:14:53 <esolangs> [[Do-if]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87785&oldid=87707 * Martsadas * (+90)
17:17:09 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87786&oldid=87155 * Martsadas * (+7)
17:19:24 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87787&oldid=87786 * Martsadas * (+12) Do-if
17:23:22 <int-e> hmmmmmm. level 13.
17:26:07 <int-e> oh, never mind
17:30:28 <Everything> why "anti"?
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17:33:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Iamwhoiami.png]]"
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17:34:11 <int-e> shachaf: yeah, that was cute :)
17:34:43 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87789&oldid=87784 * PixelatedStarfish * (+32)
17:35:05 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87790&oldid=87789 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3)
17:36:35 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87791&oldid=87790 * PixelatedStarfish * (-38)
17:36:47 <int-e> Everything: I probably said too much already :P
17:37:28 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87792&oldid=87791 * PixelatedStarfish * (+8) /* Syntax */
17:37:31 <Everything> int-e: ah, this is a puzzle yet to be solved
17:38:07 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87793&oldid=87792 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Syntax */
17:38:33 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87794&oldid=87793 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* The Metalanguage */
17:43:45 * Corbin wonders if PixelatedStarfish knows that grues are snakes
17:43:54 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87795&oldid=87794 * PixelatedStarfish * (+15)
17:46:05 <int-e> They are? Isn't it too dark to figure that out?
17:46:46 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87796&oldid=87795 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71)
17:47:00 <riv> how do you know which level you are on?
17:49:38 <Corbin> It's just a bit of folklore, not an official fact. Unlike the preview button, which is both official and factual.
17:49:52 <int-e> riv: esc gets you to the level selection screen
17:50:03 <int-e> riv: (where the levels are numbered)
17:50:13 <riv> im stuck on 14
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18:07:52 <int-e> . o O ( only slightly gimped: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/invader.png )
18:29:26 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87797&oldid=87796 * PixelatedStarfish * (+39) /* Hello World */
18:59:49 <arseniiv_> shachaf: wow thanks too
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19:10:43 <fizzie> It was fun. 15/17 took me far longer than it should've.
19:10:51 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87798&oldid=87797 * PixelatedStarfish * (+231) /* The Metalanguage */
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19:13:17 <arseniiv> stuck on 13/17
19:13:27 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87799&oldid=87798 * PixelatedStarfish * (+87) /* The Metalanguage */
19:13:40 <riv> i like how the witness changed game design so now "not telling the rules" is part of the challenge
19:14:14 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87800&oldid=87799 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29) /* Syntax */
19:17:58 <fizzie> Heh, I already forgot what I did in 13. Oh, right, that.
19:18:05 <int-e> riv: context?
19:18:17 <arseniiv> 13 seems impossible… I can’t see where one can stack three squares to stick and why there are two other squares
19:18:37 <arseniiv> maybe as an example?.. but for what
19:18:42 <int-e> arseniiv: it is possible, and I'm glad I'm not the only one to be puzzled by it
19:18:55 <arseniiv> this is a good level then :D
19:19:41 <fizzie> I don't know if you want spoilers, but gurer'f n cynpr jurer lbh pna fgvpx gur guerr phorf va na y sbezngvba jurer gurl trg fghpx.
19:19:53 <int-e> fizzie: 15 was a slight surprise... but a fair one, I thought
19:20:26 <riv> int-e, this sokoban game for example
19:20:30 <riv> but many other games too
19:20:42 <riv> arseniiv, 13 is possible but i cant do 14
19:20:45 <fizzie> Yeah, I think I got the idea what needs to be done pretty quick, but the execution took a while.
19:20:50 <int-e> riv: the "the witness" reference still confuses me.
19:20:55 <arseniiv> ah right I did it
19:21:11 <riv> int-e, in the game the witness you have to figure out the rules as you play - unlike most games you get told the rules
19:21:22 <int-e> oh you mean that game. okay, fine.
19:21:31 <int-e> (not a person)
19:22:09 <fizzie> Is there something you can do post 17/17? It says the usual "press X to continue" but when I do I just get back to 17/17, and if I press X again in it it just says "...".
19:22:20 <fizzie> I mean, I guess it did say "the end" already, and I'm just overthinking it.
19:22:21 <int-e> I'm sure it wasn't the first game that made figuring out the rules part of the game. In a somewhat roundabout way that was the main point of Myst, for example.
19:22:39 <riv> true,
19:22:40 <fizzie> It's just in the level select screen it doesn't turn from "[ ]" into the wider "[ ]" either.
19:22:42 <arseniiv> riv: will baba is you be amongst those games too? At first glance it doesn’t tell the rules straight too, but I think this is more of a formalist understanding for the case. This one tells almost nothing by contrast
19:22:51 <riv> no, baba is you is not like that in my opinion
19:22:58 <riv> the rules of the game are right there written out for you to see
19:23:10 <arseniiv> didn’t play the witness too
19:24:23 <int-e> Heh, I played too much of it, really, but stopped at some point.
19:24:25 <arseniiv> riv: good, then our feelings probably mean something if they coincide!
19:25:38 <riv> i replayed earlier levels but it didn't help me figure out the one im stuck on
19:28:11 <int-e> riv: it's actually possible to find inspiration in an earlier level, I think
19:28:14 <zzo38> I have played "The Wit.nes" which I think is similar to Witness but I don't know. Although, still they don't tell you what is the rule of the game
19:30:42 <int-e> won't play it... but I like the main map, very reminiscent of the real thing. But there's game elements that won't be replicated... it's really quite essential that The Witness is a 3D game; it wouldn't be the same without perspective.
19:31:43 <int-e> riv: in any case I bet the solution for level 14 will be obvious in retrospect.
19:32:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87801&oldid=83354 * Cypooos * (+649) /* I don't think this is Turing complete */
19:36:18 <arseniiv> 17 is puzzling
19:40:11 <arseniiv> I reckon you need to close yourself in blocks? as the lone square can be moved otherwise…
19:46:20 <arseniiv> this seems unattainable as you’d seemingly need to pull blocks which is impossible
20:00:58 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87802&oldid=87800 * PixelatedStarfish * (-70)
20:06:27 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87803&oldid=87802 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Syntax */
20:07:17 <arseniiv> finally! good game
20:08:41 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87804&oldid=87803 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* The Metalanguage */
20:10:03 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87805&oldid=87804 * PixelatedStarfish * (+67) /* Syntax */
20:13:15 <int-e> arseniiv: I wonder what a challenge could be for the final level... this position maybe? https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/osecure.png
20:24:44 <arseniiv> int-e: yeah I don’t easily see how to end up with this one
20:25:41 <arseniiv> mine had just one diagonal axis of symmetry
20:26:51 <arseniiv> and it in a sense solved itself out when I found you can just make four 3 × 1 walls, I didn’t see a clear path how to build them step by step
20:26:59 <arseniiv> oops
20:27:08 <arseniiv> I spoiled it all out
20:27:24 <arseniiv> didn’t think about it at all
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20:40:05 <shachaf> fizzie: Me too! On 15/17, I mean.
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21:31:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87806&oldid=87715 * PixelatedStarfish * (+13) /* Esolangs */
21:31:32 <esolangs> [[Colon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87807 * Hyperdawg * (+19) Created page with "GD Colon is a furry"
21:52:41 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cythan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87808&oldid=87801 * Int-e * (+762) /* I don't think this is Turing complete */
22:00:43 <esolangs> [[Talk:Cythan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87809&oldid=87808 * Int-e * (+74) finish sentence
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22:27:45 <zzo38> Although games without mentioning the rules can be good, and other variants, I mainly like the puzzle game where you can see all of the rules and all of the game state (this is why I added the inspection menu into Free Hero Mesh) and then you can try to figure out from that. Sam Shemitz had made puzzles with hidden objects as well as unusual consequences of the rules; my own puzzles use the latter but not the former.
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22:50:24 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Colon]]": offtopic: this page doesn't seem to be esolang-related
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22:59:53 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87810&oldid=87805 * PixelatedStarfish * (+92) /* Meta-program Examples */
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23:06:01 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87811&oldid=87810 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Meta-program Examples */
23:06:56 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87812&oldid=87811 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* File Name Generator */
23:08:08 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87813&oldid=87812 * PixelatedStarfish * (-7) /* File Name Generator */
23:10:04 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87814&oldid=87813 * PixelatedStarfish * (-10) /* File Name Generator */
23:14:06 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87815&oldid=87814 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Meta-program Examples */
23:18:58 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87816&oldid=87806 * PixelatedStarfish * (+96) /* Implemented Languages */
23:19:21 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87817&oldid=87816 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Grue */
23:23:35 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87818&oldid=87761 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Commands */
23:23:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87819&oldid=87734 * Ais523 * (-111560) clear down to 1 month's worth of introductions, to help prevent this page growing too large (former introductions are still available in the page history)
23:34:55 <esolangs> [[Grue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87820&oldid=87815 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+27) /* File Name Generator */ cat
23:36:32 <esolangs> [[Grue]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87821&oldid=87820 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+39) /* File Name Generator */ other cat
2021-08-31
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01:08:08 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87822&oldid=87818 * PixelatedStarfish * (+102) /* Syntax */
01:09:44 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87823&oldid=87822 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Commands */
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01:19:41 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87824&oldid=87823 * PixelatedStarfish * (+132) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:21:49 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87825&oldid=87824 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:22:17 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87826&oldid=87825 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:24:23 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87827&oldid=87826 * PixelatedStarfish * (+123) /* Cells and the Grid */
01:36:11 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87828&oldid=86949 * CosmicMan08 * (+0) clarification
02:00:33 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87829&oldid=87827 * PixelatedStarfish * (+660) /* Values on the Deque */
02:04:17 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87830&oldid=87829 * PixelatedStarfish * (+85) /* Cells and the Grid */
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02:21:30 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87831&oldid=87830 * PixelatedStarfish * (+325) /* Accessing Memory Addresses */
02:22:03 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87832&oldid=87831 * PixelatedStarfish * (+6) /* Grammar */
02:27:46 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87833&oldid=87832 * PixelatedStarfish * (+326) /* Syntax */
02:28:20 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87834&oldid=87833 * PixelatedStarfish * (+44) /* Accessing Memory Addresses */
02:29:19 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87835&oldid=87834 * PixelatedStarfish * (+70) /* Tokens */
02:29:35 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87836&oldid=87835 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Tokens */
02:30:23 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87837&oldid=87836 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
02:34:02 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87838&oldid=87837 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Memory */
02:36:01 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87839&oldid=87838 * PixelatedStarfish * (+71) /* Program Examples */
02:36:44 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87840&oldid=87839 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* Truth Machine */
02:37:40 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87841&oldid=87840 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Truth Machine */
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02:44:15 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87842&oldid=87841 * PixelatedStarfish * (+699) /* Program Examples */
02:44:31 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87843&oldid=87842 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
02:45:05 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87844&oldid=87843 * PixelatedStarfish * (-99)
02:45:46 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87845&oldid=87844 * PixelatedStarfish * (+43)
02:46:26 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87846&oldid=87845 * PixelatedStarfish * (-42)
02:55:04 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87847&oldid=87846 * PixelatedStarfish * (+221) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
02:56:05 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87848&oldid=87817 * PixelatedStarfish * (-289) /* Plans */
02:58:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87849&oldid=87848 * PixelatedStarfish * (+160) /* Unimplemented Languages */
02:59:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87850&oldid=87849 * PixelatedStarfish * (-6) /* Vessel */
03:00:53 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87851&oldid=87850 * PixelatedStarfish * (+47) /* Heck */
03:05:41 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87852&oldid=87847 * PixelatedStarfish * (+339)
03:06:07 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87853&oldid=87852 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
03:07:12 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87854&oldid=87853 * PixelatedStarfish * (+28)
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03:07:39 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87855&oldid=87854 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4)
03:08:50 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87856&oldid=87821 * PixelatedStarfish * (+48)
03:11:54 <esolangs> [[Vessel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87857&oldid=87855 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68)
03:13:06 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87858&oldid=87712 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:13:22 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87859&oldid=87135 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:13:39 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87860&oldid=86810 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:13:58 <esolangs> [[Wheel]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87861&oldid=87699 * PixelatedStarfish * (+12)
03:15:43 <nakilon> what does "CPart of cycle" mean at https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters ?
03:17:37 <Hooloovoo> it means that in the directed graph of languages which can interpret other languages, the language is part of a cycle
03:18:00 <Hooloovoo> bub can do brainfuck, bf can do bub
03:18:23 <Hooloovoo> (which is the only example?)
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03:24:35 <nakilon> I've just realised that I don't need two growing stacks to interpret brainfuck because I can store [] stacks within the same stack of bf code so I might finally make it in rasel
03:25:41 <nakilon> Hooloovoo indeed, only once use of C
03:36:20 <nakilon> *one
04:09:54 <esolangs> [[Dc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87862&oldid=87740 * Ais523 * (-1) /* Computational class */ this isn't actually a list at all, so it probably shouldn't have commas (and if it does they should come in pairs to offset a parenthetical)
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05:15:46 <nakilon> ah, nope, the second stack was bf's tape; anyway, I can store bf code in every 2i cell and bf tape in every 2i+1
05:30:23 <oerjan> if your "stack" actually has random access you only need one indeed
05:57:57 <nakilon> since there is no argv in rasel and so there is only one kind of getc I suppose I have to define an format
05:58:29 <nakilon> such as "brainfuck code should end with 0x00 and then goes the bf stdin"
06:04:36 <oerjan> it is somewhat customary to use ! as the separator
06:04:59 <oerjan> although technically that's a legal comment character (but then so is 0x00)
06:05:32 <oerjan> (well at least several of our bots use it
06:05:42 <oerjan> @bf ,[.,]!test
06:05:42 <lambdabot> Done.
06:05:53 <oerjan> hm apparently lambdabot doesn't
06:06:10 <oerjan> @help bf
06:06:10 <lambdabot> bf <expr>. Evaluate a brainf*ck expression
06:06:38 <oerjan> which means it might not be able to do input
06:06:57 <oerjan> @bf ,[.,]]another logical option
06:06:57 <lambdabot> Done.
06:07:01 <oerjan> nope
06:21:06 <nakilon> hmmm thinking now about the difference between the "translator" and "interpreter"; I already made the translator few months ago -- it kind of reformats the bf code into rasel 2d code and then you can run it with any existing interpreter of rasel; in case of making an interpreter now the rasel code won't be generated per bf program and it will act
06:21:06 <nakilon> depending on the input bf code; i.e. there is no "snapshot" state then you run after it's generated -- you might think that there is a definition of the difference between translator and intpreter here somewhere; but! since "there is no argv" and that my "bf rasel interpreter" will have to preload all the bf code before execution it's technically
06:21:06 <nakilon> possible to "save the state" after the preloading and before the running and export it as a rasel code that would artificially fill the stack with bf code and then the "interpreter" to be appended
06:22:40 <nakilon> so if you save the interpreter state in a special (pure rasel code) format it would be effectively the same as translating
06:27:38 <nakilon> or is the difference between translator and interpreter in that translator does not reformat the original language code stream? but then ok, if I reformat the bf code stream into a chain of razel base36 literals you may say that's where the "translation" was, at least partically; but what if I use the stringmode ("") instructions to preserve the
06:27:38 <nakilon> original bf code?..
06:31:56 <oerjan> nakilon: i think you've just proved that there is no firm boundary. some interpreters will compile (translate) on the fly, and some languages (i think perl?) allow you to save the current state of the runtime after things like parsing for quicker startup.
06:32:17 <oerjan> *some language runtimes
06:34:09 <oerjan> so in the right context, an interpreter can be turned into a compiler or vice versa.
06:49:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, but if you have a hard to program language like rasel, then there is a difference between eg. a bf interpreter written in pure rasel, one that reads the bf code with the rasel IO and needs nothing but rasel to run it, and a translator that translates bf code to rasel code and possibly input to that code
06:50:01 <b_jonas> s/difference/firm boundary/
06:50:27 <nakilon> hmm, maybe in this exact case the differenve between the existing "bf to rasel translator" and the future "interpreter" is in that the translator had to be written in ruby, not in pure rasel and the interpreter would be a thing that does not need any additional ruby code
06:50:51 <b_jonas> this is most obvious if you think of a bf to bf translator versus a bf interpreter in bf
06:53:27 <nakilon> I guess the "difference between translator and interpreter" is just a different question from the "difference between these two I'm making"
06:54:09 <oerjan> yeah if you think of it as a bootstrapping problem then it's a firmer distinction
06:54:23 <nakilon> because theorethically I can make a translator from bf to rasel in pure rasel
06:54:59 <oerjan> nakilon: of course the bootstrapping way is to translate the translator
06:55:25 <oerjan> after which you can throw away the non-rasel stuff
06:56:15 <oerjan> but then it has to translate its own language
06:57:48 <nakilon> https://i.gifer.com/origin/4c/4c9aa95eab8893f208b8406e103a3fed.gif
07:06:40 <nakilon> lol I never checked out the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJ1dbyDcrI
07:08:10 <oerjan> nakilon: this _shouldn't_ be mindblowing, it's essentially how something like gcc or clang gets ported to a new computer architecture - you add a new backend that allows it to translate itself to the new machine code
07:12:19 <oerjan> (ok i guess everything can be mindblowing the first time)
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07:18:33 <b_jonas> admittedly rasel isn't as limited as brainfuck, so it's easier to write an interpreter in rasel than in bf
07:21:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: that gcc thing skims over a lot of real world technical problems that come up when you do that, but sure
07:22:38 <nakilon> by implementing rasel in rasel I would be able to "throw away" the ruby gem rasel but not the ruby runtime though
07:23:08 <nakilon> wait, that won't even be enough
07:25:33 <nakilon> it's more layers that just gcc/clang thing
07:26:03 <nakilon> even if ruby was compilable
07:58:32 <nakilon> found about "!" here https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Extensions but the example snippet isn't clear; it's like eating the first space characters that's not a universal thing to do
07:59:37 <nakilon> or it was just a bad choice to format this wiki part with code block instead of a marker list maybe
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08:16:15 <nakilon> yesterday I woke up in the middle of a dream where some guy was teaching me how to easily draw any angle via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straightedge_and_compass_construction using some cleer iterative divisions by 2, 3, etc. -- then I woke up and could not remember _<>
08:17:37 <nakilon> this is saying not any angle can be drawn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructible_polygon but I'll now go try catch that guy again
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11:27:29 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87863&oldid=72193 * YamTokTpaFa * (+40) /* External resources */
11:34:41 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87864&oldid=87863 * YamTokTpaFa * (+149) /* External resources */
11:38:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87865&oldid=87769 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+13) /* V */ .
11:48:54 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87866&oldid=87864 * YamTokTpaFa * (+5) /* Loops and events */ 1. Blank line to be formatted; 2. Were you missing a '-' from '<-'?
11:50:20 <esolangs> [[CLC-INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87867&oldid=87866 * YamTokTpaFa * (+0) /* Operand overloading */ Why slat while you are talking about backslat?
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14:50:10 <wob_jonas> ais523: I think I can prove https://esolangs.org/wiki/Infinite_Vector Turing-complete. I can simulate a one-dimensional cellular automaton in it, with almost any rules with the restriction that the alphabet is at most 2**256 sized (the size of the largest built-in integer type), and that the 0 state is sessile (so if the neighborhood of a cell is 0
14:50:10 <wob_jonas> then the cell will stay 0 in the next step).
14:55:48 <wob_jonas> I store the state of the CA in a vector such that cell k is stored in the element of index (1<<k)-1, and all other elements are 0. If A is such an array, then Ar0++Ar1=A;Ar=Ar0$Ar1; computes the cells cyclically rotated by 1 into Ar, and similarly Al0$Al1=A;Al=Al1++Al0; computes the cells cyclically rotated left by 1 into Al. To evolve the state by
14:55:48 <wob_jonas> a step, you compute all the rotations to get the neighbor elements that the rule depends on, then use a conjunction of comparisons to determine which rule of the CA applies, and a ?: conditional chain with those conditions and the new cell state if that condition is true.
14:58:29 <wob_jonas> Every iteration of the Infinite Vector loop computes one step of the cellular automaton. You use A=A++0; to add a 0 padding to the right of the CA array, and do enough of this each step that it simulates the CA array being padded by zeroes, so the cyclic rotations only rotate in zeroes. At the start of your program, you use a constant
14:58:29 <wob_jonas> initialization statement to start from the CA's starting step.
15:00:11 <wob_jonas> To add a halting condition, you have to use a CA that zeroes itself out in the halting state, and add a A:-( statement to the IV program. But you can compile any program to such a CA state if you translate it from a one-tape Turing-machine program, and write the Turing-machine program to track where the ends of the parts it uses of the tape are and
15:00:12 <wob_jonas> zeroes out the whole tape before halting, and you can translate that from a two-stack machine.
15:01:11 <wob_jonas> Infinite Vector is probably not non-interactive-IO-complete the way you defined its IO now.
15:01:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: does this sound correct?
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15:10:31 <wob_jonas> when you translate from the Turing-machine to the cellular automaton, you'd translate both the halting state of the TM and the empty state of the tape to 0, this looks ambiguous at first but I think it works
15:16:34 <wob_jonas> alternately you could start from any TM (that need not zero itself), then when the TM reaches halting state, which would be represented by the halting state appearing in exactly one cell of the CA, you change it to two special states, say 1 and 2, in two neighboring cells, then add new CA rules such that 1 moves left by several cells and zeroes out
15:16:34 <wob_jonas> everything it passes, 2 stays stationary, and when the 1 meets the 2 from the other side, they annihilate to all zeroes, only this time the 1 should propagate faster than how fast you expand the array that represents the CA, and so also faster than the speed of light of the TM
15:17:28 <wob_jonas> you could probably also modify a CA directly, but you have to be slightly more careful with the rules because the halting cell value could show up multiple times
15:20:09 <wob_jonas> (and of course you have to reduce the TM or the CA to fit in the 2**256 limit, but the standard method works for that)
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15:48:57 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ithkuil * New user account
15:50:32 <esolangs> [[Talk:Demons]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87868 * PixelatedStarfish * (+138) Created page with "Let me know if you like an interpreter or a logo for this lang! I cannot really a hard completion deadline, but I think this would be fun!"
15:50:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:Demons]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87869&oldid=87868 * PixelatedStarfish * (+27)
16:00:22 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87870&oldid=87856 * PixelatedStarfish * (+90) /* Syntax */
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16:21:03 <esolangs> [[Grue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87871&oldid=87870 * PixelatedStarfish * (+62) /* The Metalanguage */
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16:41:56 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87872&oldid=87819 * Ithkuil * (+133) /* Introductions */
16:42:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87873&oldid=69431 * Ithkuil * (+1089)
16:43:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87874&oldid=87873 * Ithkuil * (+21)
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17:15:20 <esolangs> [[User:Hakerh400/Bijection between reals and the powerset of naturals]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87875&oldid=87720 * Hakerh400 * (+141) Forbid a specific 3-tuple
17:18:31 <Corbin> Hm. I wonder if Hakerh400 knows about continued fractions yet, or other ways to make streams of naturals into productive real numbers.
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19:21:58 <b_jonas> ok, what I said earlier about Infinite Vector wasn't count right, because the array roll operations don't work as is. let me figure out if that's some simple typos that can be fixed, or if it's a significant flaw
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19:44:46 <b_jonas> it can be fixed. the element index k of the CA array is stored in element index (1<<k) in the IV vector (rather than (1<<k)-1 which I said before), the statements to roll right is A0++A1=A;Ar=A0$A1;, and the statements to roll left is A0$A1=A;Al=A0++A1;,
19:45:33 <b_jonas> you still store zeros in every other item of the IV vector, and you still grow the CA array with a zero on the right by doing A=A++0;
19:49:53 <b_jonas> ais523: ^ correction to what I said earlier today about Infinite Vector the esolang
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22:10:12 <b_jonas> (you can also make the original scheme work, but you have to be more careful, you can't just use it as cyclic shifts, you have to use them as normal shifts that UB if you shift zero out in either direction)
22:11:59 <nakilon> the guy with ruler and angles wasn't there (
22:18:44 <nakilon> omg, I don't understand how gemified rasel-ide worked for me but it isn't now; it requires jquery-3.6.0.min.js that isn't attached to the bin/ shims
22:21:19 <nakilon> never decide that you are done with something when you want to sleep
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