←2021-07 2021-08 2021-09→ ↑2021 ↑all
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01:01:19 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86783 * CosmicMan08 * (+1504) Created page with "Stupidbf is a joke derivative of [[Brainfuck]] by CosmicMan08#1975 ([[User:CosmicMan08]]). it sucks lmao == instructions i guess == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Instruction !!..."
01:01:41 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86784&oldid=86783 * CosmicMan08 * (+27)
01:05:03 <esolangs> [[Stupidbf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86785&oldid=86784 * CosmicMan08 * (-1497) Redirected page to [[Language of Laughing]]
01:05:06 <esolangs> [[Language of Lauging]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86786 * CosmicMan08 * (+1543) Created page with "Language of Laughing is a joke derivative of [[Brainfuck]] by CosmicMan08#1975 ([[User:CosmicMan08]]). it sucks lmao == instructions i guess == {| class="wikitable" |- ! Ins..."
01:06:24 <esolangs> [[Language of Laughing]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86787 * CosmicMan08 * (+33) Redirected page to [[Language of Lauging]]
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01:47:03 <oerjan> `learn The password of the month is too long for this irc message
01:47:07 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is too long for this irc message
01:48:34 <int-e> passable
01:48:58 <oerjan> ( arseniiv spoke about quasi-Fermatic passwords earlier )
01:50:18 <oerjan> hm this would have been a good use for `# , but of course i never remember that until afterwards
01:50:57 <oerjan> `? `#
01:50:59 <HackEso> ​`# <comment>//`<command> is useful if you want to add a comment to HackEgo history for things like `sled or `le/rn.
02:02:38 <int-e> we should get fizzie to add links from the hackeso repo history pages to the IRC pages (not serious, no clue how feasible that is, but it'd require hacking hgweb for sure)
02:04:06 <fizzie> Hmm. If it's just based on commit timestamp to the date, that'd probably be reasonably easy. If you want it to link to the correct line's anchor, that's probably a little trickier.
02:05:34 <int-e> timestamp is probably fine, especially since the change might have happened off channel
02:05:58 <int-e> but eh... it's really not that hard to do that manually. a bit tedious, sure.
02:07:54 <fizzie> Yeah. I guess it'd actually be more than a "little" tricky to link to the exact line fully reliably, because HackEso and the logging are two separate clients, so they're not guaranteed to see messages in the same order.
02:14:02 <oerjan> fiendish
02:15:40 <oerjan> you could compare the command lines, although there is some escaping i think
02:15:49 <oerjan> (in the logging)
02:19:21 <oerjan> of course the logs can't be seen from inside HackEso
02:19:30 <oerjan> um the irc logs
02:22:39 <oerjan> there is also a slight theoretical ambiguity because `run and plain ` are both stripped and not distinguished iirc
02:24:30 <oerjan> `date
02:24:31 <HackEso> Sun Aug 1 02:24:30 UTC 2021
02:27:25 <oerjan> `dowg password
02:27:27 <HackEso> 12414:2021-08-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is too long for this irc message \ 12408:2021-07-01 <arseniïv> learn The password of the month is tempting in retrospect \ 12397:2021-06-01 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is moving to Libera Chat. \ 12377:2021-05-08 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is heavily guarded. \ 12374:2021-04-06 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is hiding in plain sight. \ 12372:2021-03-04 <in
02:33:24 <oerjan> HackEso could probably collect all the info and build a url, and then there could be a web page that decoded it and searched to the right place. i presume. i don't know the web side of things.
02:46:49 <b_jonas> ` have you changed the error message for this?
02:46:50 <HackEso> ​? Permission denied
02:46:54 <b_jonas> `/ or for this
02:46:55 <HackEso> ​/? Permission denied
02:46:58 <b_jonas> no. good.
02:47:13 <b_jonas> in what way is plain ` "stripped"?
02:48:32 <b_jonas> oh, you mean when HackEso records the commands in its hg log? or some internal log for fizzie when they don't modify anything?
02:53:59 <oerjan> the former. how would i know about fizzie's internal logs?
02:54:27 <fizzie> Yes, I think the hg commit message isn't entirely unambiguous.
02:55:08 <oerjan> although `run is pretty rare these days.
02:58:15 <b_jonas> oerjan: fizzie might tell about them, or you might have read the source code
02:59:02 <b_jonas> I almost never use `run but I *should*. it's an easy way to avoid rnoodl. ideally I should reimplement rnoodl to make it less mentally annoying, but I'm lazy.
03:00:10 <b_jonas> though part of the problem is that even after I reimplement it, I'll still hate it, and want it not to be present in commands that I run
03:00:56 <oerjan> `` printenv
03:01:04 <HackEso> IRC_NICK=oerjan \ PWD=/hackenv/tmp \ HACKENV=/hackenv \ HOME=/tmp \ LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ IRC_NETWORK=Libera.Chat \ IRC_COMMAND=PRIVMSG \ IRC_IDENT=oerjan \ TERM=linux \ IRC_INSTANCE=HackEso-libera \ SHLVL=1 \ http_proxy= \ IRC_HOST=sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no \ IRC_TARGET=#esolangs \ PATH=/hackenv/bin:/usr/bin:/bin \ IRC_MESSAGE=`` printenv \ _=/usr/bin/printenv
03:01:26 <oerjan> `cbt rnoodl
03:01:28 <HackEso> cat: /hackenv/bin/rnoodl: No such file or directory
03:01:32 <oerjan> `cbt rnooodl
03:01:35 <HackEso> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
03:02:42 <b_jonas> I'm fine with wisdom and \? running rnoodl to be clear, it's just \` and \`\` where I think it shouldn't run
03:02:59 <oerjan> hm
03:04:21 <b_jonas> if you want to balance it out, make quote run rnoodl
03:05:06 <b_jonas> admittedly that would lead to a nested rnoodl syndrome, similar to the leaning toothpick syndrome, where some quotes contain lines that HackEso said and were already rnoodled
03:05:38 <b_jonas> no wait, it wouldn't!
03:05:53 <b_jonas> rnoodl only affects exactly three os, not more than three
03:05:53 <b_jonas> great
03:07:14 <b_jonas> the part of rnoodl that I hate is that it buffers too much. if a command ran with backtick prints a partial line then times out, you won't see that output, because rnoodl swallows it. there is never any reason for rnoodl to not print any input immediately, except sometimes the single last character when it just read something ending in "nood".
03:07:39 <b_jonas> something ending in "noood", sorry
03:08:08 <b_jonas> so a good implementation of rnoodl should write immediately after a read, except for that last "d", which it should ideally write after a short timeout
03:09:16 * oerjan goes to get some chocolate
03:12:13 <b_jonas> I did consider just modifying \` or \`\` to not run rnoodl, but I think that would be reverted quickly. I did consider modifying them to not run rnoodl if I (b_jonas) am running the command, but that would be reverted too, perhaps slightly less quickly. I even considered modifying \` or \`\` to not run rnoodl if I'm running it and hiding my tracks by modifying cbt and creating /bin/cat such that they
03:12:19 <b_jonas> both write a fake output if you cbt \` or cbt cbt or cbt cat, probably with some other extra behavior in cat to justify why I created it, and that would take much longer to discover, but after that you'd be much angrier with me.
03:13:40 <b_jonas> so my best option is probably to make a good implementation for rnoodl, and also modify *that* to exec cat when I'm running the command, or perhaps exec cat when I'm running the command and the command is \` rather than \q
03:13:56 <b_jonas> that would probably not get reverted, but it requires work
03:17:20 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lexinathan * New user account
03:18:57 <b_jonas> of course I'm never really sure about what would get reverted, and the general problem of what gets reverted on a wiki and what gets to stay is probably politics-complete, i.e. harder than what humans can currently do
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03:20:13 <b_jonas> if you had repeated calls to an oracle that could predict if a change gets reverted on a wiki, you could probably use that to find optimal solutions to any political problem, like what the heck to do with the middle east
03:21:33 <b_jonas> well no, probably not find *optimal* solutions, just find solutions exponentially close in value to the optimal
03:23:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86788&oldid=86778 * Lexinathan * (+239) /* Introductions of Lexinathan */
03:23:21 <fizzie> What I've been thinking I should do is to make the log web pages produce proper cache validation headers (ETag and/or Last-Modified), because currently they contain none, but the content of past days never changes. Except (and that's probably the reason why I haven't done it yet) if I change something in the formatting.
03:24:22 <fizzie> Here's something I can never remember: which one out of the `-i` and `-I` flags of curl is the one that does just a HEAD request, vs. the one that does a normal GET request but also prints the headers as part of the output. There's probably some kind of a mnemonic for it.
03:26:05 <orichalcumcosmon> fizzie: `-I`
03:26:33 <orichalcumcosmon> also called `--head`
03:26:38 <fizzie> Yes, I mean, I can look it up and/or just determine it empirically, the problem is remembering it the next time.
03:26:49 <fizzie> Maybe the long flags would be more memorable.
03:27:06 <fizzie> Though I'm quite capable of remembering that -i and -I do those two things, just not which one is which.
03:27:15 <esolangs> [[User:Lexinathan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86789 * Lexinathan * (+107) me
03:29:21 <oerjan> "but that would be reverted too" <-- ye of little faith, we'd just expand it to read share/rnooodlhaters hth
03:34:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: -i for "include" header; -I is an uppercase letter to set the HTTP method, and http methods are usually written in uppercase
03:35:47 <b_jonas> -G means to set the method to GET; POST is the default if you give a body to post, and you can't post with no body (you can post with empty body but that's different); but -H was already used for something more important, so it's -I
03:36:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> if you had repeated calls to an oracle that could predict [...] <-- this seems related to option 3 here https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/updated-look-at-long-term-ai-risks
03:37:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: alternately, don't try to remember -i at all, instead try to remember -D to dump the header, but remember -D to print headers to a separate file, and use -D - instead, or -D with the same filename as where the normal output goes
03:37:24 <b_jonas> um no, not that latter
03:37:31 <b_jonas> -D - instead, and redirect to a file if you wish
03:37:56 <b_jonas> you rarely want to include headers in the same stream when you write a script, and when you just examine the output then -D - ... | less will work
03:40:30 <b_jonas> but you do sometimes want headers in a separate file when you're writing a script, so remembering -D in general is more useful
03:41:50 <b_jonas> in practice, I remember almost none of those options, not -I, not -i, I look up everything in the manual except maybe sometimes -sS or whatever that pair of options is to mute the default performance info output on stderr when I'm writing to a file but still print errors
03:42:01 <b_jonas> I don't even know if it's -sS or -sq or -qQ or whatever
03:42:17 <b_jonas> yeah, looked it up, it's -sS
03:42:25 <b_jonas> curl is hard to use without looking up
03:43:05 <b_jonas> ideally I should implement a better downloading tool that does exactly what I need -- I have written one, wgetas, but that was like twelve years ago, the program sucks, my needs changed, etc
03:43:24 <b_jonas> and if I write the program, then I will set its syntax to something I remember
03:44:00 <esolangs> [[User:OrichalcumCosmonaut]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86790&oldid=86762 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (-18) pronoun.is has an ?or= query parameter
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06:13:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86791&oldid=86759 * KakkoiiChris * (+114) /* Operators */ Added increment and decrement operators to precedence tables
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06:30:43 <zzo38> Now I wrote a PostScript code for parsing command-line switches, like getopt but always like POSIXLY_CORRECT mode. So, you can write: /Verbose false def << /v [/N {pop /Verbose true def}] >> (getopt.ps) run Verbose ==
06:35:36 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/qT0uzl
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09:33:12 <nakilon> lmao
09:33:18 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/Gpi3LQn.png
09:33:47 <nakilon> found this edit in my library README dated to Oct 19 2020
09:35:45 <nakilon> and I have no idea what the hell is the bug there
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14:18:41 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * R3D * New user account
14:28:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86792&oldid=32131 * Rdococ * (+367)
14:29:06 <esolangs> [[Talk:OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86793&oldid=86792 * Rdococ * (+3)
14:34:44 <riv> are there any AIs based on bayes law?
14:37:59 <Corbin> I'm imagining that, given a function which we are trying to optimize, we could estimate intervals around the minima. The edges of these intervals (their "boundary") would have a gradient based on the function's derivative.
14:38:47 <riv> the AI should make decisions based on logic and bayes law, to pick the best action
14:38:48 <Corbin> Given an evaluation of the function within any particular interval, we can improve our knowledge of that interval's minimum, and tighten the bounds.
14:39:21 <Corbin> This connects Bayes' law (information about minima) with differentiation-oriented optimization (information about gradients near minima).
14:39:55 <nakilon> looks like I finished the thing that finds the words in channel names
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14:40:30 <riv> nakilon, can you show the code and explain it
14:41:05 <riv> Corbin, what about if everything was over finite sets?
14:41:16 <riv> then i wont have derivatives
14:41:30 <riv> e.g. an AI in a discrete simulated world
14:41:47 <nakilon> explaining it would probably take the same amount of time I wrote it lol
14:42:04 <nakilon> here is the result: https://dpaste.org/6LwV/slim
14:43:17 <Corbin> riv: Then the useful parts of (warning: memetic hazard!) https://intelligence.org/files/LogicalInduction.pdf apply, and we get 0-1 integer programming (Boolean circuits), which is NP-complete.
14:43:26 <nakilon> I see no errors except probably the line #32 that is a part of "cryptocurrency", should grep to see the input with this substring
14:44:20 <riv> the result makes no sense
14:44:53 <riv> how was this computed
14:45:14 <riv> there was many channels with pokemongo in the name?
14:46:13 <Corbin> riv: That said, somebody does have a recipe for creating generic AIs: https://people.idsia.ch/~juergen/goedelmachine.html As it evolves over time, it naturally exhibits Bayes' law by improving the explanatory power of its inner model.
14:46:15 <nakilon> example piece of input https://i.imgur.com/AqHIn9K.png
14:46:59 <riv> interesting
14:47:07 <riv> can you tell me how it does this nakilon ?
14:47:10 <nakilon> example piece with pokemongo https://i.imgur.com/7p1q88m.png
14:47:40 <riv> there is a tension between length of substring and number of matches
14:47:46 <riv> the longer a substring is the fewer matches it has
14:47:52 <riv> how do you balance it?
14:48:05 <riv> is there a name for this problem you solved?
14:48:31 <nakilon> I have no idea about the name
14:48:56 <nakilon> I asked local NLP chat and googled, found no existing solution
14:51:02 <riv> input is a set of I of N strings, output is a set O of M strings. You want M << N and you want entropy H(I|O) to be much smaller than H(O) I guess could be a way to set it up
14:51:08 <riv> i dont know for sure if that's right
14:51:36 <riv> correction H(I|O) to be much smaller than H(I)
14:51:51 <riv> maybe it's nonsense
14:52:05 <riv> the idea is that I can be compressed well using O
14:53:41 <riv> I think it's the wrong way to think about it, I am trying to make anything a nail for this hammer im reading about now
14:56:12 <riv> we want to find "common" substrings in a set of strings. Call a substring of length n common if it occurs more than log(n) times.
14:57:08 <nakilon> if you want to code and try to achieve the same success I can give you the input
14:57:26 <riv> I have no idea how to code this, that's part of why i find it interesting
14:57:44 <riv> I would maybe try to adapt LZW
14:58:11 <riv> I think LZW is not just a random dictionary compression alg. I think it is the canonical universal compression alg (for ergodic sources)
14:59:22 <riv> It will be nice if you tell how you coded it
14:59:39 <riv> but if you dont want to that's ok
15:01:44 <nakilon> omg almost deleted the source code
15:01:55 <nakilon> thanks Sublime
15:02:22 <nakilon> that the file was still open in it
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15:04:04 <nakilon> "but if you dont want" -- no, it's just complex
15:04:51 <nakilon> and involves my know-how algorithm twice
15:06:37 <nakilon> "I would maybe try to adapt LZW" -- I asked here like 3 days ago about it if there is "some text compression CLI with debug option to see common substrings"
15:07:20 <nakilon> (I'm still lazy to make any search functionality for my IRC logs)
15:07:47 <nakilon> anyway, there was no answer
15:08:33 <riv> you should use git
15:09:00 <riv> LZW is just an alg, not a specific command line program
15:09:12 <riv> so i would need to code it from scratch, especially to get common substrings out
15:09:30 <riv> know-how algorithm?
15:12:08 <nakilon> "you should use git" -- I didn't have any good results until the last hour so I didn't commit
15:13:28 <nakilon> I call it PCBR (Pairs Comparison Based Rating) -- very universal thing for sorting tables
15:14:27 <nakilon> works better than more classic heuristics functions that you apply "to sort tables by multiple axes at the same time"
15:15:47 <nakilon> it's like round-robin chess tourney but with some details
15:19:46 <riv> oh that is cool!
15:24:56 <nakilon> back in 2013 I wanted to figure out who's the best player on my fav Quake map so I've scraped thousands of player profile stats; the approach didn't work better than just dividing "score / time played" with some heuristics, idk why, but that was the start
15:26:39 <nakilon> then in 2015 I reimagined it and applied to filter the RSS feeds to leave only the most interesting posts based on their stats like score/comments/age and properties of the tags they belong to -- worked well so I made a gem
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15:29:03 <fizzie> We have an unsupervised-learning thing for morpheme extraction, that's pretty much the same problem I think.
15:29:20 <riv> morpheme extraction...
15:29:31 <fizzie> Although if I remember right, we really didn't care if the result was "correct", just that it works well.
15:30:02 <nakilon> in 2016 I decided to automate the moderation of the content in the company I worked at -- the 1-nn worked well after I've optimized the training set of 2000 items throwing away ~500 of them, and since you can't retrain the model 2^2000 time I used the PCBR to effectively traverse the tree of throwingouts
15:30:21 <fizzie> http://morpho.aalto.fi/events/morphochallenge/ -- it was an almost-annual challenge kind of a thing for some time.
15:31:37 <nakilon> and after these "milestones" I started to apply the PCBR so often for my scriptings it would be too big list to describe
15:32:04 <fizzie> And https://github.com/aalto-speech/morfessor for the piece of software. Not sure how obsolete it is these days.
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15:33:02 <nakilon> the first time I've realised the things works I tried to find it in any books to name the gem properly but couldn't so I had to make my own name for it; later I tried to google it again and only found a bunch of math topics on wikipedia, still no exact match
15:40:33 <nakilon> oh, found those links
15:40:38 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-criteria_decision_analysis
15:40:46 <nakilon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-objective_optimization
15:46:10 <nakilon> fizzie what is the first column? frequency?
15:47:49 <nakilon> (here http://morpho.aalto.fi/events/morphochallenge2010/data/wordlist-2010.eng)
15:50:37 <fizzie> Yes.
15:56:33 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86794&oldid=86788 * R3D * (+100)
15:57:06 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86795&oldid=86794 * R3D * (+17)
15:59:33 <esolangs> [[User:R3D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86796 * R3D * (+178) Created page with "hello, i'm R3D, and i have created some esolangs (Deadmind, LTCBCBYCII, RPL) check it out if you can contact me (if any interpreter bugs): discord: R3D#9999 github: redleader167"
15:59:52 <esolangs> [[User:R3D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86797&oldid=86796 * R3D * (+4)
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17:55:28 <esolangs> [[Pith]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86798&oldid=86407 * ZippyMagician * (+1318) Clean up page
17:57:55 <esolangs> [[Pith]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86799&oldid=86798 * ZippyMagician * (+14) Change wording of - operator notes
18:01:23 <riv> ok here's my plan
18:01:45 <riv> since we have a lot of short strings, it should be ok to just make a histogram of every contiguous substring of each string
18:01:59 <riv> I think that means you multiply the number of strings by T(n) essentially
18:02:08 <riv> O(m * n^2)
18:02:13 <riv> m number of strings, n length of strings
18:02:43 <riv> then i want to pick ones that have a good score
18:03:03 <riv> where score is some function that likes length and frequency
18:03:14 <riv> possibly log(length)
18:03:36 <riv> there's a lot of free parameters to mess with there, which is not great
18:04:12 <riv> what do you think of this approach?
18:17:44 <arseniiv> sorry to interrupt
18:17:47 <arseniiv> `? password
18:17:54 <HackEso> The password of the month is too long for this irc message
18:18:02 <arseniiv> ha :)
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19:13:13 <esolangs> [[LTMCBCBYCII]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86800 * R3D * (+4838) Created page with "Esolang, created by [[User:R3D|R3D]] in July 2021. Full name is Language That May Cause Brain Cancer But You Can Ignore It, the shortest one is BCL. Heavily inspired by IN..."
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19:40:23 <riv> hm so the problem I have with my idea is that I get substrings of substrings in my output
19:42:19 <riv> nakilon, https://bpa.st/5P6A
19:42:41 <riv> i dont think its as good as your approach
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19:59:35 <riv> > k -common substring problem: Given m strings of total length n, for all k with 2≤k≤m simultaneously find a longest substring common to at least k of the strings. It is known that the k-common substring problem can also be solved in O(n) time
19:59:37 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:46: error: parse error on input ‘of’
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20:54:35 <zzo38> My opinion is I think that the POSIXLY_CORRECT mode of getopt is better.
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20:56:31 <riv> POSIXLY_CORRECT? lol
20:59:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: for getopt, I agree that it's better than the GNU mode
20:59:07 <b_jonas> but I can mostly deal with both
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20:59:41 <b_jonas> I try to write my scripts in a way that they work with both when I invoke a program, so put options first but still put ./ at the start of filenames that start with a hyphen etc
20:59:54 <b_jonas> and -e before a grep pattern that starts with a hyphen
21:01:56 <zzo38> So, the implementation I wrote in PostScript is always using the POSIXLY_CORRECT
21:02:35 <zzo38> But when I write script calling other programs also I will do things like you mention, and using -- in case there might need other file names/arguments with - at first, too
21:04:02 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86801&oldid=86717 * Oshaboy * (+6) Formatting
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22:29:36 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86802&oldid=86308 * PolySaken * (+70) /* Computational Class */
22:47:25 <esolangs> [[Excellerated Short-Term Memory Loss]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86803&oldid=86802 * PolySaken * (-70) /* Computational Class */
22:53:19 <esolangs> [[Unhaltingfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86804 * Silver * (+1680) page created, along with haltingfuck
22:53:21 <esolangs> [[Haltingfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86805 * Silver * (+1472) page created, along with unhaltingfuck
22:54:54 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86806&oldid=86771 * Silver * (+38)
22:58:07 <esolangs> [[User:Silver]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86807&oldid=86284 * Silver * (+74)
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00:28:54 <esolangs> [[Haltingfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86808&oldid=86805 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-22) /* UnHaltingFuck */ Cat
01:17:10 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86809&oldid=86326 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* Instructions */
01:17:35 <esolangs> [[Something]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86810&oldid=86809 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Instructions */
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06:57:43 <nakilon> 21:03:36 <riv> there's a lot of free parameters to mess with
06:57:48 <nakilon> I had only two
06:58:32 <nakilon> one real parameter and another one -- I took only 15000 of 50000 of input strings, heh, or it would take a day to calculate
06:59:29 <nakilon> 22:42:20 <riv> nakilon, https://bpa.st/5P6A
06:59:36 <nakilon> yeah only 3 first are good, the rest is broken
07:01:21 <nakilon> the next valid word is only 37, and 20 is a Russian word if you strip the _
07:01:47 <nakilon> rabota = job
07:02:56 <nakilon> I suppose 15000 is big enough to not miss popular words, among the top-100 list that it produced
07:03:16 <nakilon> the next 100 had several errors, didn't count
07:08:44 <nakilon> 117 nofficial 160 erchat 164 ernet 175 nchain etc. and some of them are weird but can be real words from languages I don't know
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08:58:13 <nakilon> Stupid chrome forgets basic auth both on desktop and mobile
08:58:28 <nakilon> I use it for my thelounge
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13:04:23 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gducrash * New user account
13:15:11 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86811&oldid=86795 * Gducrash * (+229) /* Introductions */
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13:42:45 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zouguangchen * New user account
14:18:32 <esolangs> [[LTMCBCBYCII]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86812&oldid=86800 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) Unpipe
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16:27:31 <riv> hi
16:28:20 <int-e> `"
16:28:22 <HackEso> 1/1:892) <evincar> okay so like <evincar> do <fizzie> Or do not? <evincar> no no <evincar> do <evincar> There is no do not. \ 824) <shachaf> Do physicists have half-life crises?
16:29:57 <riv> wow
16:30:02 <riv> `',
16:30:06 <HackEso> ​',? No such file or directory
16:30:41 <fizzie> `'
16:30:43 <HackEso> 852) <kmc> yes Windows 98 installer, please perform a bad blocks scan of your virtual emulated hard drive <kmc> you have no idea how completely i control your so-called reality
16:30:49 <fizzie> A single quote and a double quote. Checks out.
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16:49:02 <int-e> https://gitlab.com/gpsd/gpsd/-/issues/144 is funny: "We would have gotten away with it too if there had been a leap second in the meantime"
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17:06:35 <int-e> Woah, I'd never heard of global warming making Earth spin faster.
17:07:14 <int-e> (apparently explaining the recent lack of leap seconds)
17:07:29 <riv> we literally can't predict leap seconds
17:07:38 <riv> there's never been any leap seconds removed either
17:08:10 <int-e> that's what I thought so far :P
17:09:42 <int-e> Hmm, maybe I have the orders of magnitude incorrect.
17:10:38 <esolangs> [[User:Epidemic7]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86813&oldid=83961 * Epidemic7 * (-220) Blanked the page
17:12:53 <int-e> So, eh, not sure it explains anything. But it's still an interesting phenomenon. I /think/ it says that the effect slightly outweighs the tidal slowdown in their scenario, resulting in a speedup of 0.12ms over 200 years rather than a slowdown by 4.6ms.
17:13:14 <int-e> But the article could be written more clearly...
17:14:24 <riv> I read that the causes of variation of spin time are not all known
17:14:30 <riv> and the ones that are known are chaotic
17:16:20 <int-e> More weirdness: "Over the past 3000 years, the core of the Earth has been speeding up a little, and the mantle-crust on which we stand is slowing down." https://phys.org/news/2015-12-scientists-reveal-rotation-earth-core.html
17:16:37 <riv> D:
17:19:17 <int-e> Ah, at least there are a couple of mechanisms that I can understand: 1) As glaciers melt, melted water moves closer to the Earth's axis. 2) As arctic and antarctic ice melt, there's less pressure pushing the poles into the earth, so it becomes a little bit rounder, moving the whole surface closer to the center.
17:19:42 <int-e> And by "understand" I mean they're plausible :P
17:20:29 <int-e> I have no hope of estimating how big those effects are without some serious study.
17:23:56 <int-e> (Which won't happen :P)
17:26:01 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86814&oldid=86780 * TheJonyMyster * (+32) cornercase
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18:17:46 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86815&oldid=86791 * KakkoiiChris * (-57) Reduced section levels by one, and added a 'Design Pattern' section
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18:19:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86816&oldid=86815 * KakkoiiChris * (-24) /* History */ Removed section separators
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18:36:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86817&oldid=86816 * KakkoiiChris * (+152) /* Values */ Testing same page link
18:36:56 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86818&oldid=86817 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Values */
18:40:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86819&oldid=86818 * KakkoiiChris * (+5) /* Values */ Added note about integers and conversion
18:42:11 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86820&oldid=86819 * KakkoiiChris * (-7) /* V4 */ Changed wording of data type in last paragraph
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18:44:37 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86821&oldid=86820 * KakkoiiChris * (+80) /* V5 */ Added memory space upgrade to new features added
18:57:40 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86822&oldid=86821 * KakkoiiChris * (+484) Added more planned sections
18:57:58 <esolangs> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86823&oldid=86408 * ZippyMagician * (-2) Remove befunge from favorites
19:03:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86824&oldid=86822 * KakkoiiChris * (-5) /* History */ Moved sentence from V2 to V1
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19:33:29 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86825 * Gducrash * (+1400) Initial release (work in progress)
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20:04:57 <zzo38> Swiss Ephemeris has a function for tidal acceleration; is that related to things that you mention?
20:09:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86826&oldid=86806 * TheJonyMyster * (+14) added headass to language list
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20:32:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86827&oldid=86824 * KakkoiiChris * (+5251) /* Command Line Tool */ Filled out all CLI sections
20:36:51 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86828&oldid=86827 * KakkoiiChris * (+261) /* File */ Elaborated on the Interpreter return value
20:38:22 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86829&oldid=86828 * KakkoiiChris * (+34) /* File */ Fixed wording in last sentence
20:39:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86830&oldid=86829 * KakkoiiChris * (-18) /* Numbers */ Added table header
20:40:17 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86831&oldid=86830 * KakkoiiChris * (-10) /* Booleans */ Added table header
20:41:19 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86832&oldid=86831 * KakkoiiChris * (-27) /* Characters */ Added table header
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20:50:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86833&oldid=86832 * KakkoiiChris * (+1) /* Characters */ Fixed wording
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21:48:38 <int-e> Ah, IBM Ponder This is back to normal (a bit of number crunching).
21:49:13 <fizzie> But is it really a "Starship" if it doesn't get any closer to any other star than the one it starts next to?
21:52:29 <int-e> Where did starships come up?
21:55:17 <fizzie> They didn't, that was apropos of nothing.
21:55:54 <fizzie> I was reading an article about some photos Uncle Elon had posted in the context of an orbital visit.
21:56:20 <int-e> Well, still lifes aren't considered to be starships, so maybe that's your answer.
21:56:40 <int-e> Ah, that thing.
21:57:06 <fizzie> Aren't those called spaceships in Life anyway?
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21:57:50 <int-e> Ah, right.
21:58:20 <fizzie> If Elon's was called the Spaceship, I couldn't complain, because it does go to space.
21:58:56 <int-e> I see. What about a solar probe?
21:59:53 <fizzie> I guess that could be a starship. Have we actually sent anything into the Sun though?
22:00:40 <fizzie> "The Parker Solar Probe is the first spacecraft to fly into the low solar corona." Maybe that will count.
22:01:29 <fizzie> Although they say it'll be "within 9.86 solar radii -- from the center of the Sun", and I guess really it should be strictly less than 1.
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22:02:39 <fizzie> "The solar radius is usually defined as the radius to the layer in the Sun's photosphere where the optical depth equals 2/3." Sounds pretty arbitrary.
22:03:25 <int-e> oh, so it's not a starship unless it actually burns up in one?
22:05:07 <fizzie> Well, I mean, I think that's maybe a little negative. But I think maybe it should either touch a star, or alternatively there should exist a point during its journey when the nearest star is not the same as at some other point.
22:05:14 <int-e> Hmm, can C++ break out of several loops without using goto yet...
22:05:23 <int-e> (not exceptions)
22:05:29 <int-e> s/not/nor/
22:06:26 <fizzie> I don't think they've added that.
22:06:30 <int-e> Pfft: "No, don't spoil it with a break. This is the last remaining stronghold for the use of goto."
22:06:47 <Thelie> I mean the Vikings already knew that burning ships is the way to go.
22:07:13 <fizzie> Which languages have a multi-level break where the operand is an integer denoting the number of loops to break, rather than a label? And of those languages, how many allow the integer to be non-constant?
22:07:30 <fizzie> PHP at least.
22:07:33 <shachaf> Oh boy.
22:07:46 <fizzie> Actually, I don't know if it can be a non-constant, but I'd sort of expect.
22:08:44 <fizzie> "PHP Fatal error: 'break' operator with non-integer operand is no longer supported" :/ :\
22:08:54 <fizzie> I do note the "no longer" in there though.
22:09:06 <int-e> TFW... bugs make your program better.
22:11:40 <shachaf> PHP is now developed by a bunch of cowards.
22:11:47 <shachaf> I bet they don't use strlen as their hash function anymore either.
22:18:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think dc has such a multi-level break
22:19:31 <int-e> UGH, why do people hate contrast so much
22:19:59 <int-e> (cf. source code examples from https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minim ...except for the yellow used for brackets)
22:20:09 <b_jonas> it's the Q command in dc
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22:21:50 <fizzie> int-e: That's a pretty excessive example. Especially the string literals and comments.
22:22:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: oh, and there's Intercal, I think it has a dynamic multi-level break too
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22:23:41 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86834&oldid=86833 * KakkoiiChris * (+144) /* Statements */ Added Memory Push and Memory Pop stubs
22:24:16 <int-e> well, it's a multi-level return
22:24:26 <int-e> (same for dc)
22:24:35 <int-e> it's not quite the same :P
22:25:06 <fizzie> "This is because the easiest way to implement an if-like construct in INTERCAL-72 is by NEXTING, then NEXTING again, then RESUMING either by 1 or 2 according to an expression, and then if the expression evaluated to 1 FORGETTING the remaining NEXT stack entry." It's a nice manual.
22:25:35 <b_jonas> does words (the program in HackEso) have an evaluate mode, as opposed to a generate mode, so that you give it a word, and it outputs the information (log probability) in it based on the model?
22:26:09 <fizzie> I don't think it has that implemented.
22:26:21 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, but in dc about the only way to write a loop is by repeatedly executing a macro, so that's what a multi-level break should look like
22:26:27 <b_jonas> as in tail-recursing a macro
22:26:55 <int-e> yeah, which is why I only interjected when you brought it up for intercal
22:27:50 <fizzie> I think you need some lexical blocks in the language in order for a dynamic multi-level break to feel ridiculous.
22:28:12 <fizzie> Can a PHP break cross function boundaries?
22:28:21 <b_jonas> I think I saw something like this in a language besides the ones we mentioned
22:28:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86835&oldid=86834 * KakkoiiChris * (+4) /* Fibonacci */ Added link
22:29:25 <int-e> I ended up with this... https://paste.debian.net/1206394/ (top: what I wanted, bottom: the result)
22:30:24 <int-e> err, I messed up the hypothetical code, didn't I.
22:30:26 <int-e> whatever
22:31:36 <b_jonas> ah yes, (0) has multi-level break using a number that gives the depth, but only for a constant depth, not dynamic. the language spec doesn't say if it works past a function boundary, I assumed no because that was convenient because I wanted to transpile the language, not implement something in it.
22:32:09 <b_jonas> that's where I must have seen it
22:32:56 <fizzie> `BEGIN AGAIN` in Forth is an infinite loop, which doesn't really fit the English meaning of that sentence fragment.
22:32:57 <HackEso> BEGIN? No such file or directory
22:36:07 <fizzie> Wonder if there's any production Forth code that says at some point ... THEN BEGIN AGAIN ... that's there, e.g., to give a supposedly unreachable piece of code defined semantics of just hanging up in there.
22:38:42 <fizzie> `` ulimit -t 1; forth ': foo if ." all good" exit then begin again ; 0 foo' # or something along those lines
22:38:44 <HackEso> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: 52 Killed forth ': foo if ." all good" exit then begin again ; 0 foo'
22:42:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: is that like the infamous {redo} in perl?
22:43:33 <b_jonas> which geo knows as (*)
22:43:57 <b_jonas> (shows that you can express useless stuff easily in that language, but not useful stuff)
22:45:43 <b_jonas> apparently today's https://xkcd.com/2497/ mentions something that has come up often on #esoteric
22:53:23 <fizzie> Forth control structures are pretty flexible. The compilation semantics of `BEGIN` push the address of the next word to the control-flow stack, and `AGAIN` pops it. `UNTIL` is the same except it also pops a value at run-time to decide whether to follow the branch or not. So while you can use BEGIN ... <cond> UNTIL for `do {...} while (!cond)` and `BEGIN ... AGAIN` for `for (;;) {...}` loops, you
22:53:24 <fizzie> can also just mix the words up if you happen to need something strange. (I'm not very good at Forth.)
22:55:32 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86836&oldid=86835 * KakkoiiChris * (+15313) /* Fibonacci */ Added syntax highlighting
23:05:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86837&oldid=86836 * KakkoiiChris * (+37) /* Characters */ Added double quote
23:06:25 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86838&oldid=86837 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Characters */ Fixed double quote name
23:11:11 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86839&oldid=86838 * KakkoiiChris * (+152) /* Size (-s) */ Added formatting to examples
23:12:18 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86840&oldid=86839 * KakkoiiChris * (-5) /* Comments */ Removed separators
23:12:38 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86841&oldid=86840 * KakkoiiChris * (-5) /* Memory */ Removed separators
23:13:33 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86842&oldid=86841 * KakkoiiChris * (-35) /* Memory */ Removed separators
23:13:56 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86843&oldid=86842 * KakkoiiChris * (-10) /* Memory */ Removed separators
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23:36:56 <zzo38> I don't like the conditions of dc much and I think that arithmetic if would be a better command to add into dc for implementing conditions
23:47:24 <esolangs> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86844&oldid=79818 * CosmicMan08 * (+610) /* Python Interpreter */ new section
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01:30:29 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86845&oldid=86843 * KakkoiiChris * (+2277) /* Operators */ Added the rest of the unique operators
01:55:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86846&oldid=86845 * KakkoiiChris * (+547) /* Statements */ Elaborated on the statements
02:03:56 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86847&oldid=86740 * Digital Hunter * (-18) /* Parse this sic */ shorter
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02:22:52 <esolangs> [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86848&oldid=86847 * Digital Hunter * (-55) /* Parse this sic */ sorry about the recent edit spree. Most compliant interpreter I could come up with, and it's pretty cute too. Tested thoroughly.
02:28:06 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86849&oldid=86846 * KakkoiiChris * (+601) /* Design Patterns */ Added exit design pattern.
02:29:35 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86850&oldid=86849 * KakkoiiChris * (+56) /* Goto (_<) */ Updated goto definition
02:30:07 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86851&oldid=86850 * KakkoiiChris * (+55) /* Gosub (_+) */ Updated gosub definition
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04:30:00 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86852&oldid=86851 * KakkoiiChris * (+5) /* Design Patterns */ Fixed typo
04:36:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86853&oldid=86852 * KakkoiiChris * (+82) Added to paradigms in info box
04:39:40 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86854&oldid=86853 * KakkoiiChris * (+104) Added categories
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05:46:55 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86855&oldid=86854 * KakkoiiChris * (+199) /* Comments */ Added syntax highlighting
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05:52:47 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86856&oldid=86855 * KakkoiiChris * (+411) /* Values */ Added syntax highlighting
05:54:10 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86857&oldid=86856 * KakkoiiChris * (+2724) /* Arrays */ Added syntax highlighting
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06:17:31 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86858&oldid=86857 * KakkoiiChris * (+8542) /* Memory */ Added syntax highlighting
06:19:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86859&oldid=86858 * KakkoiiChris * (+12) /* Relative Range Access */ Added syntax highlighting
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06:47:53 <zzo38> Does any format use floating point RLE?
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08:17:29 <esolangs> [[Ppencode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86860 * YamTokTpaFa * (+4674) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''ppencode''' is #a subset of [[Wikipedia:Perl|Perl]] who restricts source code to have only Perl keywords, defined by Yoshino TAKESAKO in 2005, #a Perl program..."
08:19:24 <esolangs> [[Ppencode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86861&oldid=86860 * YamTokTpaFa * (+1) /* Syntax */
09:47:17 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86862&oldid=86811 * Zouguangchen * (+73)
09:49:41 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86863&oldid=86862 * Zouguangchen * (+62)
09:56:29 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86864&oldid=86825 * Gducrash * (+5792) Added syntax rules and a list of commands
09:58:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Gducrash * uploaded "[[File:Ucrash.jpg]]"
10:00:37 <esolangs> [[User:Gducrash]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86866 * Gducrash * (+147) My page yay!
10:11:35 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86867&oldid=86864 * Gducrash * (+92) Added categories
10:12:55 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86868&oldid=86826 * Gducrash * (+16) added AsciiFunc
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10:37:29 <esolangs> [[AsciiFunc]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86869&oldid=86867 * Gducrash * (+1829) Added examples, improved syntax description and infobox
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11:14:05 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Gabryx64 * New user account
11:20:57 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86870&oldid=86863 * Gabryx64 * (+192) /* Introductions */
11:21:18 <esolangs> [[User:Gabryx64]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86871 * Gabryx64 * (+2) Created page with "Hi"
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11:42:49 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86872 * Gabryx64 * (+663) Sus
11:43:24 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86873&oldid=86872 * Gabryx64 * (-2) /* Sussylang */
11:45:34 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86874&oldid=86868 * Gabryx64 * (+16) /* S */
11:47:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86875&oldid=86874 * Gabryx64 * (+0) Undo revision 86874 by [[Special:Contributions/Gabryx64|Gabryx64]] ([[User talk:Gabryx64|talk]])
11:48:49 <esolangs> [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86876&oldid=86373 * Gabryx64 * (+33) /* General languages */
11:58:11 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86877&oldid=86873 * Gabryx64 * (-7) /* Truth Machine */
11:58:20 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86878&oldid=86877 * Gabryx64 * (-7) /* Sussy World!(\n) */
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12:22:00 <esolangs> [[User:R3D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86879&oldid=86797 * R3D * (+1)
12:53:16 <esolangs> [[Aboba]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86880 * R3D * (+2383) Created page with "An esolang created in 1 day. Inspired by Brainfuck, but very different from it. Should be turing complete. Extensions: <code>.b</code>. ===Instructions=== {| class="wiki..."
13:03:33 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86881&oldid=86878 * Gabryx64 * (+0) /* Sussylang */
13:03:38 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86882&oldid=86814 * TheJonyMyster * (+1063) turing complete!! woo!!
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13:43:29 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86883&oldid=86881 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+50) Cats
13:49:59 <esolangs> [[User:Gabryx64/common.css]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86884 * Gabryx64 * (+51) Created page with "#html { filter: invert(1) hue-rotate(180deg); }"
13:51:33 <esolangs> [[User:Gabryx64/common.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86885&oldid=86884 * Gabryx64 * (+6)
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14:01:16 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86887&oldid=86882 * TheJonyMyster * (-12)
14:02:58 <b_jonas> hmm. we could try to make a bait-and-switch joke about how 2020 is the longest year, not because of the pandemic, but because it has both 366 days and 53 weeks. that has last happened in 2004, and will happen in 2032 next.
14:03:58 <b_jonas> or perhaps we could make a doom prophecies about a new pandemic in 2032
14:06:16 <Noisytoot> Was there a pandemic in 2004?
14:07:34 <Taneb> Bird flu was 2004
14:08:12 <Taneb> Which was a pandemic scare rather than an actual pandemic
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18:01:00 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Braden * New user account
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18:04:20 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86888&oldid=86870 * Braden * (+206) Braden has joined the party
18:05:55 <esolangs> [[User:Braden]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86889 * Braden * (+77) Created page with "I'm Braden, creator of [https://gitlab.com/bradenbest/stacky Stacky/Stackyzi]"
18:07:17 <esolangs> [[User:Braden]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86890&oldid=86889 * Braden * (+147) Mention bfvm
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18:32:33 <riv> https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2805/scientists-id-three-causes-of-earths-spin-axis-drift/
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19:10:10 <Melvar> fizzie: I could’ve sworn I had some forth code that went like `begin <one half> <cond> while <other half> repeat` or similar, doing the branch check in the middle of the loop body so the first half of the loop body has do-while-like execution and the second half while-like. I can’t find said code now though.
19:10:35 <fizzie> That's a thing too, yes.
19:10:53 <fizzie> I omitted it because I couldn't really write the C equivalent.
19:11:56 <Melvar> Yeah that was more answering to the “mix the words up if you need something strange” part.
19:13:44 <fizzie> Yes, although arguably in that case that's specifically what those three words (well, except `begin`, it's more generic) have been designed to do. But I feel like I've seen Forth code that just uses one of the existing control flow words in a really unintuitive place, because it happens to have the right effect.
19:15:43 * Melvar nodnods.
19:23:16 <fizzie> Now that you mention it, it's actually a little confusing how `while` and `until` aren't just aliases with the condition inverted. Instead, `while repeat` is the counterpart of `until`. Or `0= until` would also do it, I guess.
19:32:26 <zzo38> This is the advantage of Forth; it is a kind of structures that can be useful in programming
20:46:29 <oren> imagine you have a function in the form (pseudocode): int muldiv(int x, y, z) = x * y / z is there any language in which you would expect to get the assembly output as something like mov eax, edi; mov ecx, edx; imul esi; idiv ecx; ret
20:47:02 <oren> that is, without a sign extend throwing away upper half of the multiplication result?
20:54:05 <b_jonas> so does `begin` push the PC to a control stack at runtime, or does it push the PC to a compile control stack and then some other control structure assembles the address from that compile control stack?
20:54:13 <oren> I tried gfortran, several C compilers, rust, and freebasic; all of them outputted some kind of sign-extent instruction
20:56:11 <b_jonas> oren: no, but if you write short instead of int for the parameter type then sure
20:56:27 <oren> why would that matter?
20:56:54 <oren> ooh right, those automatic conversions
20:56:56 <b_jonas> because the C language will coerce the shorts to ints before you multiply
20:57:25 <b_jonas> though of course that only extends on the now common platforms where shorts are 16 bit wide but ints are 32 bit wide
20:58:40 <oren> no, I still get a sign-extend
21:03:47 <oren> it converts to 32 bit, but then still sign-extends upper 32 bits of result even though they're guaranteed to already be
21:10:21 <fizzie> b_jonas: AIUI, it's the latter. As in: BEGIN pushes a backwards branch destination to the (control flow, though sometimes it's just the one) stack as part of its compilation semantics, and compiles into nothing; and likewise AGAIN pops a branch destination from there and compiles into an unconditional jump.
21:10:29 <fizzie> Similarly with `IF ... THEN`, except in that case IF compiles into a to-be forward jump and pushes something that represents an unresolved target, which THEN pops off and uses to set the destination address. None of these words have any valid interpretation semantics.
21:10:35 <fizzie> `forth begin again
21:10:36 <HackEso> ​ \ *OS command line*:-1: Interpreting a compile-only word \ >>>begin<<< again bye \ Backtrace: \ $40393B30 throw
21:12:43 <fizzie> Though there are special interpreter directive versions, [if], [then], [begin], [repeat] that can be used in the interpreter mode to conditionally compile things and so on.
21:18:02 <fizzie> `forth : ex 1 if ." true" else ." false" then cr ; ex see ex
21:18:04 <HackEso> true \ \ : ex \ 1 \ IF .\" true" \ ELSE .\" false" \ THEN \ cr ;
21:18:11 <fizzie> `forth : ex [ 1 ] [if] ." true" [else] ." false" [then] cr ; ex see ex
21:18:12 <HackEso> true \ \ : ex \ .\" true" cr ;
21:53:30 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86891&oldid=86887 * TheJonyMyster * (+3) format
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21:56:31 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86892&oldid=86891 * TheJonyMyster * (-67) /* Computational class */
21:57:41 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86893&oldid=86892 * TheJonyMyster * (+12)
21:59:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok. but I understand there's still a runtime control stack for subroutines
21:59:32 <b_jonas> are all these words case-insensitive? the mix of uppercase and lowercase is confusing
21:59:59 <b_jonas> but if they're case-insensitive that would explain it
22:00:30 <fizzie> Yes, there's a return stack. And yes, I think Forths are often case-insensitive, and Gforth at least is.
22:01:07 <fizzie> Apparently you can have special case-sensitive wordlists as well if you want.
22:02:15 <fizzie> https://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Case-insensitivity.html "Two people have asked how to convert Gforth to be case-sensitive; while we think this is a bad idea, you can change all wordlists into tables like this: ' table-find forth-wordlist wordlist-map !
22:02:17 <fizzie> Note that you now have to type the predefined words in the same case that we defined them, which are varying. You may want to convert them to your favourite case before doing this operation (I won't explain how, because if you are even contemplating doing this, you'd better have enough knowledge of Forth systems to know this already)."
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23:53:05 <zzo38> What kind of lossless compression is suitable for short sound effects, rather than music or speech?
01:15:36 <b_jonas> ok, so it's probably like basic, which is case sensitive, so on old computers people used all upper case, because that worked well with the old printers and monitors, but now people more and more prefer more readable mostly lower case, with some upper case initials
02:23:04 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86894&oldid=86893 * TheJonyMyster * (+251) formatting in comp class
02:42:12 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86895&oldid=86859 * KakkoiiChris * (+40) /* Operators */ Added evaluation order
02:46:40 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86896&oldid=86895 * KakkoiiChris * (-79) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added syntax highlighting
02:46:58 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86897&oldid=86896 * KakkoiiChris * (+316) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added line 1
02:47:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86898&oldid=86897 * KakkoiiChris * (+316) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added line 2
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03:21:49 <KakkoiiChris> I was told by the Discord that I should ask here for some help with the rate limit on my lang's wiki page?
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03:23:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Got a match?]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86899 * TheJonyMyster * (+308) i may be stupid,
03:24:11 <esolangs> [[Talk:Got a match?]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86900&oldid=86899 * TheJonyMyster * (+4) fixed format
03:24:23 <Corbin> This would be a good place to ask. I don't recall who could help with that, though.
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04:30:06 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86901 * ZippyMagician * (+3259) Main page for cpy, info
04:30:08 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86902 * ZippyMagician * (+1379) Add converter (bf -> cpy)
04:31:07 <esolangs> [[User:ZippyMagician]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86903&oldid=86823 * ZippyMagician * (+9) Add cpy
04:31:33 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86904&oldid=86875 * ZippyMagician * (+10) Add cpy
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10:53:19 <esolangs> [[Talk:SussyLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86905 * Gabryx64 * (+188) Created page with "sussy imposter baka ..."
11:13:37 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86906&oldid=86883 * Gabryx64 * (+1618)
11:14:31 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86907&oldid=86906 * Gabryx64 * (+1)
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12:57:02 <esolangs> [[SussyLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86908&oldid=86907 * Gabryx64 * (+2360) /* SussyLang */
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13:35:23 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86909&oldid=86902 * ZippyMagician * (+401) Fix bug in converter
13:37:41 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86910&oldid=86909 * ZippyMagician * (+14) Add back button
13:38:35 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86911&oldid=86901 * ZippyMagician * (-54) Update page with fixes
13:39:43 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86912&oldid=86911 * ZippyMagician * (-8) /* About */
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13:42:48 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86913&oldid=86912 * ZippyMagician * (+129) Fix translation guide to account for bug
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13:58:31 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86914&oldid=86910 * ZippyMagician * (-1794) Blanked the page
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14:08:45 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86916&oldid=86915 * ZippyMagician * (+696) Update to actually work
14:09:31 <esolangs> [[Cpy/Converter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86917&oldid=86914 * ZippyMagician * (+13) Add back link
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16:35:23 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: are you there? i can disable the size filter for a moment for you
16:37:31 <oerjan> otoh it _is_ a rather large page, so i might recommend splitting up
16:40:58 <oerjan> or i could do this...
16:42:50 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86918&oldid=86916 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+1) Fix cat
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17:04:36 <nakilon> does anyone remember how did exactly that "collection of puzzles" with Loopy reach this channel a week-two ago?
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17:05:49 <nakilon> btw, velik is currently down due to the ongoing migration between hostings
17:10:21 <oerjan> which collection of puzzles
17:11:53 <nakilon> oerjan that's how that website with Loopy called
17:13:25 <oerjan> https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-07.html#lB9 shows you were the first to mention loopy last month
17:14:12 <oerjan> and fizzie mentioned the collection a few messages above
17:14:29 <oerjan> but of course, we've discussed that many times over the years
17:14:53 <nakilon> I see
17:15:11 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i learned it first on #esoteric
17:15:19 <oerjan> but not at all sure when
17:15:25 <oerjan> *learned of it
17:16:49 <oerjan> in fact, i usually have one of those puzzles open on my laptop at any given time (currently Dominosa)
17:18:17 <oerjan> cycling alphabetically whenever i tire of the previous one or windows nags about rebooting, mostly
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17:25:05 <int-e> 2009-02-07 18:34:06: <oerjan> "Trojan horse Generic12.BJXH" it says \ 18:34:19: <oerjan> in [t]atham's puzzle connection?
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17:26:33 <nakilon> connection
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17:30:12 <oerjan> wait are you saying i might have mentioned it first?
17:32:38 <oerjan> hm that doesn't sound like a first mention
17:36:47 <oerjan> or rather, i'm speaking as if i've already played that collection for quite a while
17:40:20 <int-e> oerjan: the site had been mentioned earlier, but the first proper link to the puzzle collection as a whole was 2009-06-30 15:53:07: <Deewiant> Also "mines" at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/ claims to do it
17:40:27 <int-e> (the web version, that is)
17:42:58 <b_jonas> how common is it that someone becomes king/queen in a hereditary monarchy (hereditary interpreted broadly) before they are born?
17:43:32 <b_jonas> eg. if their father was the king and they die before the child is born
17:45:31 <nakilon> and the award for the least expected question goes to...
17:48:20 <oerjan> i'm sure we've seen less expected ones. but not sure if they were also from b_jonas ;)
17:48:30 <b_jonas> sorry, I was just thinking about the primogeniture succession rule for the king of Great Britain and Ireland
17:49:22 <b_jonas> and there's the implication that if you don't want to turn a monarch to not a monarch while they're alive without them abdicating or forced to abdicate because of some scandal, then you need to accept that the unborn child of their recently dead uncle needs to be king
17:49:56 <b_jonas> this was probably even funnier with the old male primogeniture rule and without ultrasounds good enough to predict the gender of an unborn child
17:50:51 <oerjan> a real sidesplitter
17:51:27 <b_jonas> and the problem could come up for other hereditary monarchy positions with a different monarch
17:52:10 <b_jonas> so I expect the question must have come up at least a few times in history
17:52:35 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've read of examples, i just cannot remember them
17:52:59 <b_jonas> it could even cause religious problems, like if the king is required to be Christian, which requires a ceremony of baptism, which is generally done after birth
17:54:59 <b_jonas> not that that part is my problem, let the relevant church deal with figuring out the rules for that
17:56:53 <b_jonas> and you could say that with the decreasing political power that European kings/queens have now, who is the king/queen is also less likely to be my problem in the 21th century
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17:59:37 <oerjan> i looked at w:regency to see if it mentioned this case, but no
17:59:48 <oerjan> er *w:regent
18:02:01 <nakilon> imagine a King becoming a Queen
18:03:00 <b_jonas> nakilon: I don't think that would matter much, king and queen are just different english words for effectively the same meaning here
18:03:01 <nakilon> what a shock for the kingdom
18:06:03 <b_jonas> I mean as far as I understand, the U.K. had new coins cast with different portraits of Queen Elizabeth II just because she aged, so they could do the same with a king who changes to a queen
18:07:06 <b_jonas> and there's all sort of text that's quickly changed between "His Majesty" vs "Her Majesty", it's not like that change itself matters much
18:08:43 <b_jonas> like, if there's a queen, and he dies, and there's a new king, and you take an oath to serve the queen after the king died but before the news reached you, that wouldn't even invalidate the oath, because you're taking an oath to serve the position, including future rightful queens, not just the current king
18:18:42 * oerjan appreciates b_jonas's return to pronominal slipup there
18:19:30 <oerjan> i haven't noticed you doing that in a while
18:24:15 <int-e> hmm https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/tents.html is still annoying :P
18:25:31 <riv> I love tents
18:26:49 <riv> solved it
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18:28:08 <b_jonas> ah
18:28:14 <riv> ones I like: dominosa, light up, loopy, magnets, pearl, signpost, tents, tracks, undead, unruly, untangle
18:28:26 <int-e> riv: The annoying bit is that there's no way to mark trees
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18:29:32 <riv> there's some good puzzles not in simon tathams collection too: star battle, statue park
18:30:05 <int-e> palisade is cute too
18:30:31 <riv> ill try it and mosaic, i never noticed mosaic before
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18:31:07 <riv> https://krazydad.com/play/area51/ is also good, it's a mix of lots of puzzles
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18:32:36 <int-e> untangle... I used to play planarity *a lot*.
18:34:30 <b_jonas> I just uploaded https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bp-csatornafedel-magykir.jpg , an old manhole cover whose caption, cast in metal, refers to "royal telephone network". I think that label would be invariant regardless the gender of the king/queen, but that's basically impossible to test because the two monarchs of Ostrich-Hungry were definitely kings, and we don't have a six hundred year old
18:34:36 <b_jonas> telephone network
18:36:07 <int-e> Oh, the untangle implementation misses the "mark intersections" feature
18:37:02 <b_jonas> apparently the telephone network on Budapest started in 1881
18:39:23 <b_jonas> though, given that I photographed that on the street in 2013, it's most likely to be recent, probably from between the two world wars
18:39:43 <fizzie> "POST OFFICE TELEGRAPHS" is what a lot of the manhole covers hereabouts say.
18:40:00 <fizzie> Not sure when they're from.
18:41:02 <fizzie> https://assets.londonist.com/uploads/2015/01/i875/telegraph.jpg <- looking like that
18:41:24 <riv> I recognize that
18:41:31 <nakilon> something something "why manholes are circle?"
18:41:51 <fizzie> Yeah, I think all of these are rectangular though.
18:42:53 <nakilon> I guess the only time I saw rectangular manhole was in Odessa, on a very popular tourist site
18:43:59 <fizzie> It is a good feature of this current timeline that a lot of London's lavatorial history is related to the company established by Thomas Crapper.
18:46:35 <int-e> still easy... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ut.png
18:46:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: I see
18:48:41 <b_jonas> here, only smaller manhole covers are circular, all the larger ones are rectangular, probably because the larger ones (not counting very old ones like this) are made of reinforced concrete with a metal frame, rather than all metal
18:48:48 <int-e> (the thing with marking intersections is that when there are many points, I tend to stash the solved part in a corner and it's easy to introduce an intersection by accident that is really hard to see)
18:48:51 <nakilon> oh wait, no, that wasn't even a rectangle, lol
18:49:13 <nakilon> https://goo.gl/maps/1Nzrf39GX9kwo6iy7
18:50:39 <b_jonas> and the largest manholes are covered by two rectangular covers, presumably to avoid a huge very heavy manhole cover, and circular would suck for that too
18:51:19 <b_jonas> nakilon: nice
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19:02:07 <KakkoiiChris> oerjan I'm here now, sorry. I was out with family for the moment.
19:05:35 <nakilon> riv did you try to solve the words thing further?
19:10:53 <riv> nakilon, I know what to do next (sort by word length, delete substrings)
19:10:57 <riv> what i didn't implement it
19:11:07 <riv> actually maybe it's not that simple
19:11:16 <riv> a shorter word might be better, if it's used many more times
19:11:29 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: i've temporarily disabled the filter now
19:11:41 <riv> conside strings with an equal number of ) and ( in them
19:11:58 <riv> consider
19:12:16 <riv> for example "()" and ")()("
19:12:31 <riv> does any language assign semantics to these?
19:13:28 <KakkoiiChris> oerjan Thank you, kindly~ I of course now realize why not many others bother with the syntax highlighting like I've done, but I was so close to finishing it that I didn't want to give up on it. I should have it done by the end of the day~
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19:15:47 <fizzie> Hmm, I wonder if there's MediaWiki extensions that allow for "manual" syntax highlighting using a syntax that's more compact and also doesn't involve hardcoding the colors necessarily.
19:16:15 <fizzie> There's definitely syntax highlighting extensions, but the ones I've come across are those where they support more... mainstream languages, and do it automatically.
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19:21:13 <KakkoiiChris> fizzie Is there a way to create a CSS sheet for your page? If that's the case, then I could keep the classes from Notepad++'s HTML output, and it would be a lot smaller.
19:22:31 <int-e> > reverse ")()("
19:22:33 <lambdabot> "()()"
19:22:56 <oerjan> > reverse "())(()"
19:22:57 <lambdabot> ")(())("
19:23:44 <oerjan> (just pointing out that it's not simply matched parens or reversed matched)
19:23:55 <nakilon> > reverse "( . )( . )"
19:23:55 <fizzie> I think probably not. There might be some security implications in allowing "untrusted" CSS that's shown to other users.
19:23:56 <lambdabot> ") . () . ("
19:24:08 <riv> ooh
19:24:51 <KakkoiiChris> True,,, oh well. At least I can keep on editing.
19:26:43 <oerjan> there might be a way to do it with templates, maybe?
19:27:02 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86919&oldid=86898 * KakkoiiChris * (+5870) /* Relative Range Access */ Added syntax highlighting
19:27:09 <fizzie> I imagine I could probably also stick in some "generic" syntax highlighting classes ("keyword", "number", whatnot) with semi-reasonable defaults into a global stylesheet file somewhere, which users could then customize in their user stylesheets if they like.
19:27:57 <esolangs> [[Aboba]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86920&oldid=86880 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
19:27:59 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86921&oldid=86919 * KakkoiiChris * (+934) /* Logical Not (!x) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:28:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe if you want to make the slowest-to-render page ever. (Not that it's a concern with our wiki's amount of traffic, just saying.)
19:28:52 <esolangs> [[Aboba]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86922&oldid=86920 * PixelatedStarfish * (-9) /* External links */
19:29:06 <fizzie> "Render" there meaning the part MediaWiki does, not the part the client does.
19:29:20 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: ok you're past the limit now so i'll turn the filter back on and you still be ok as long as you don't shrink the page back below it
19:29:26 <nakilon> lol 🅰️🅱️🅾️🅱️🅰️
19:29:48 <oerjan> *you should still
19:31:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86923&oldid=86921 * KakkoiiChris * (+1487) /* Logical Narrowing (?x) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:32:00 <nakilon> dark color schemes suck if you ask me https://i.imgur.com/4RX4jY3.png
19:32:08 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86924&oldid=86923 * KakkoiiChris * (+1295) /* Unary Operators */ Added syntax highlighting
20:02:54 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86925&oldid=86924 * KakkoiiChris * (+19777) /* Binary Operators */ Added syntax highlighting
20:05:33 <KakkoiiChris> oerjan You mean not to remove any text, right?
20:05:52 <KakkoiiChris> Below what I had before, that is.
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20:18:19 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86926&oldid=86925 * KakkoiiChris * (+1013) /* Ternary Operator (x ? y : z) */ Added syntax highlighting
20:19:05 <oerjan> KakkoiiChris: yeah
20:22:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86927&oldid=86926 * KakkoiiChris * (+14336) /* Design Patterns */ Added syntax highlighting
20:26:03 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> (just pointing out that it's not simply matched parens or reversed matched)" => but cyclically rotated matched parens, right?
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20:42:18 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86928&oldid=86927 * KakkoiiChris * (-1761) /* Design Patterns */ Fixed formatting
20:42:51 <riv> ah yes
20:42:56 <riv> there will always be a cyclic shift
20:43:04 <riv> because you can align the zero point
20:52:00 <oerjan> yeah
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21:35:54 <int-e> riv: the thing about untangled is that it's more a matter of patience than anything else... https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ut500.png
21:36:30 <int-e> (it does produce funny patterns though, which probably differ a lot between players)
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21:38:54 <riv> woah
21:38:59 <riv> i dont think ive ever done one that complex
21:40:25 <fizzie> What's the settings for that?
21:41:05 <fizzie> Judging from the file name, 500 points, but it doesn't seem that much.
21:41:18 <int-e> it's 500 points
21:41:28 <int-e> > sqrt 500
21:41:29 <lambdabot> 22.360679774997898
21:41:41 <fizzie> Huh. I guess it's just hard to estimate.
21:44:35 <int-e> Well, I didn't count them. But 500 is what I told it to use.
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21:51:35 <fizzie> I think there was a standalone version of that game too. "gplanar"? No, "gplanarity".
21:52:29 <int-e> yep, gplanarity
21:52:42 <int-e> played that endlessly maybe a decade ago
21:53:23 <int-e> it had some cute twists, like some levels with non-planar graphs
21:54:21 <int-e> also some useful editing features, most notably a zoom feature which I mostly used to concentrate the initial points in the lower-left corner so I had room to operate
21:54:45 <int-e> but alos a block move feature that was occasionally handy for rearranging the solved part.
21:56:15 <fizzie> I wonder if it would be a plausible UI tweak if there was a mode that hides edges you haven't touched any endpoint of, so which maybe could allow you to do the solution in the middle of the circle.
21:57:17 <int-e> that might work
21:58:17 <int-e> I wonder whether gplanarity had something like that (untouched lines in gray?)
22:00:22 <fizzie> Hmm, I cant find any sort of settings dialog. As far as buttons go, it seems to have just a "mark intersections" and a general show/hide lines which completely hides all lines.
22:00:34 <fizzie> But dehighlighting untouched lines rings some sort of a bell.
22:02:24 <int-e> ah it highlights lines when you click a point... I guess that's what I'm confusing it with
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22:05:01 <fizzie> I didn't remember that gplanarity gives a score on time too.
22:05:12 <fizzie> Maybe it's changed, or maybe I just forgot.
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23:21:59 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86929&oldid=86736 * Spargle * (+184) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
23:23:02 <int-e> fizzie: there's also the original flash game, maybe that had a feature like this
23:23:28 <int-e> I don't recall
23:31:13 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86930 * PixelatedStarfish * (+541) Created page with "The ''Goblins Operation'' is an modified goto operation that enables subroutine like behaviors. The operation was created for [[Blood32]] and it is named after the hemoglobin..."
23:31:57 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86931&oldid=86930 * PixelatedStarfish * (+30)
23:33:59 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86932&oldid=86931 * PixelatedStarfish * (+601)
23:34:22 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86933&oldid=86932 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Goblins Operation Example in Blood32 */
23:37:31 <esolangs> [[Goblins Operation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86934 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35) Redirected page to [[The Goblins Operation]]
23:39:03 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86935&oldid=86933 * PixelatedStarfish * (+58) /* Goblins Operation Example in Blood32 */
23:39:48 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86936&oldid=86935 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22) /* Goblins Operation Example in Blood32 */
23:41:37 <esolangs> [[Goblins]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86937 * PixelatedStarfish * (+35) Redirected page to [[The Goblins Operation]]
23:43:44 <esolangs> [[Esoteric algorithm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86938&oldid=75103 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+0) /* Potential Use */ monogamous monotonous
23:43:54 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86939&oldid=86226 * PixelatedStarfish * (+3) /* The Goblins Operation */
23:44:07 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86940&oldid=86939 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* The Goblins Operation */
23:44:55 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86941&oldid=86940 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Pointer operations */
23:46:36 <esolangs> [[The Goblins Operation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86942&oldid=86936 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+1) /* Goblins Operation Example in [[Blood32]] */ indicted indicated
23:57:42 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86943&oldid=86514 * CosmicMan08 * (+3631) added bf69 commands
23:58:19 <esolangs> [[Bf69]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86944 * CosmicMan08 * (+43) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]]
23:58:38 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+++++++++++++++++++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86945 * CosmicMan08 * (+43) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]]
23:59:09 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86946 * CosmicMan08 * (+43) Redirected page to [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]]
00:00:40 <int-e> uh...
00:01:13 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86947&oldid=86928 * KakkoiiChris * (-264) /* String Output */ Fixed formatting
00:02:38 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86948&oldid=86943 * OrichalcumCosmonaut * (+28) is self-modifying, add category
00:03:11 <fizzie> Uh.
00:04:27 <esolangs> [[Brainfuck++++++++++++++++++++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86949&oldid=86948 * CosmicMan08 * (+52)
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01:14:31 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86950&oldid=86947 * KakkoiiChris * (+12401) /* Statements */ Added syntax highlighting
01:35:01 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86951&oldid=86950 * KakkoiiChris * (+10) /* Values */ Fixed links
01:38:11 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86952&oldid=86951 * KakkoiiChris * (+59) /* Numbers */ Added Infinity and NaN
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02:55:51 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86953&oldid=86952 * KakkoiiChris * (+1547) /* System Arg (\<) */ Elaborated and added syntax highlighting
02:56:44 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86954&oldid=86953 * KakkoiiChris * (+679) /* System Call (\>) */ Added syntax highlighting
02:57:41 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86955&oldid=86954 * KakkoiiChris * (-7) /* Goto (_<) */ Fixed order
03:02:52 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86956&oldid=86955 * KakkoiiChris * (+361) /* Numbers */ Added dynamic literals
03:09:44 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86957&oldid=86956 * KakkoiiChris * (+66) /* Numbers */ Added Pi and E
03:16:41 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86958&oldid=86957 * KakkoiiChris * (-1) /* Numbers */ Changed wording
03:20:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86959&oldid=86958 * KakkoiiChris * (+28) /* V5 */ Changed wording
03:33:33 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86960&oldid=86959 * KakkoiiChris * (+2295) Added System Function section
03:38:17 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86961&oldid=86960 * KakkoiiChris * (+18) /* General Functions */ Added table
03:40:36 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86962&oldid=86961 * KakkoiiChris * (+27) /* System Call (\>) */ Added System Function section link
03:41:02 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86963&oldid=86962 * KakkoiiChris * (+27) /* System Arg (\<) */ Added System Function section link
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04:48:38 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86964&oldid=86963 * KakkoiiChris * (-69) /* Math Functions */ Finished table
04:53:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86965&oldid=86964 * KakkoiiChris * (+233) /* System Functions */ Elaborated on system functions
04:58:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * KakkoiiChris * uploaded "[[File:KakkoiiChris.png]]"
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05:38:38 <esolangs> [[User:KakkoiiChris]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86967 * KakkoiiChris * (+937) Started page
05:40:42 <esolangs> [[User:Thenewcomposer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86968 * KakkoiiChris * (+26) Redirect to KakkoiiChris
05:41:06 <esolangs> [[Stacky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86969 * Braden * (+2110) Apologies for rough formatting and the not-great article. Feel free to flesh it out as needed.
05:41:39 <esolangs> [[User:Thenewcomposer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86970&oldid=86968 * KakkoiiChris * (+5) Fixed link
05:44:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stacky]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86971 * Braden * (+434) Created page with "I was nervous to create this page. I'm writing a reference implementation in my free time. It'll be a JIT and it'll include a compiler to convert stacky source code to the obn..."
05:46:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Stacky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86972&oldid=86971 * Braden * (+177) /* Stackyzi */ new section
05:47:12 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86973&oldid=86965 * KakkoiiChris * (+53) /* Arrays */ Reworded sentences
05:47:53 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86974&oldid=86973 * KakkoiiChris * (+6) /* Strings */
05:49:32 <esolangs> [[Stacky]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86975&oldid=86969 * Braden * (+1) fixed error in truth machine example (a correct implementation would crash upon trying to pop an empty stack)
05:52:59 <esolangs> [[Stacky]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86976&oldid=86975 * Braden * (+1) third time's the charm
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06:06:26 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86977&oldid=86974 * KakkoiiChris * (+552) /* Single Access */ Added negative indices
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06:25:48 <esolangs> [[Todo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86978 * TheJonyMyster * (+1839) Created page with "'''Todo''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] where functions are called from a queue. Functions are defined and subsequently added to the queue, and can be called when o..."
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07:42:08 <nakilon> maybe this was the flash game https://www.kongregate.com/games/qrious/untangle but my browser does not play this flash anymore
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09:58:44 <nakilon> in Russian we call the raw photo slide "a negative" but when we mean the opposite color we say "inverted" color, not "negated"
09:58:48 <nakilon> is it the same in your languages?
10:00:05 <nakilon> while both words are foreign we have an own word "обратный" but we don't use it here at all AFAIK
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10:02:27 <nakilon> can't remember where I saw the .negate method instead of .invert that is more intuitive for me
10:02:32 <nakilon> API method
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10:30:48 <kspalaiologos> what kind of esolangs fame is Chris Pressey himself starring your eso project
10:31:49 <nakilon> he's starring every esolang
10:32:23 <nakilon> probably
10:33:17 <b_jonas> oh hi kspalaiologos, I haven't seen you in a while
10:33:27 <kspalaiologos> hello!
10:33:51 <kspalaiologos> nice to meet you again :)
10:34:16 <kspalaiologos> I've gone a long way since I tried to learn J from you
10:34:36 <b_jonas> you found our new home. we can't hide from you.
10:35:17 <kspalaiologos> haha, i guess I'll be haunting you from now ;)
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11:10:00 <esolangs> [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86979&oldid=84881 * Palaiologos * (-2) update the URL
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12:05:52 <nakilon> I keep playing with telegram channels dump
12:06:09 <nakilon> is there are name for such diagram? https://i.imgur.com/nm93tjy.png
12:07:36 <nakilon> when I google "heatmap" none of them has a col width of 1 pixel
12:09:08 <nakilon> also no log axis
12:20:51 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86980&oldid=86894 * TheJonyMyster * (+6)
12:21:38 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86981&oldid=86978 * TheJonyMyster * (+23) authorship
12:31:30 <fizzie> I think it's a relative of the strip chart and the ridgeline plot, but not exactly either of those.
12:35:42 <fizzie> And also of the rug plot, which is a thing where you add a tick exactly like that near an axis to illustrate the marginal distribution in that direction.
12:38:16 <fizzie> Oh, there is a name for it: barcode chart.
12:39:36 <fizzie> At least according to https://www.darkhorseanalytics.com/blog/visualizing-distributions-3 -- it's just that except more than one of them.
12:53:54 <nakilon> yeah, "barcode" looks like that
12:54:13 <nakilon> but my one also has a lightness value
12:54:59 <nakilon> without logarithmic lightness it was looking like this https://i.imgur.com/8ZGsRYW.png
12:59:17 <fizzie> That's part of it, as described there. "-- usually with some transparency or a colour scale to deal with multiple points of the same value."
12:59:38 <fizzie> (I think that generalizes to "or values so close they can't be rendered as distinct lines.")
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13:15:28 <nakilon> oh, I often skip the text (
13:21:42 <esolangs> [[Siterip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86982&oldid=70258 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-31) Remove empty ref list
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17:58:46 <esolangs> [[Todo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86983&oldid=86981 * TheJonyMyster * (+21) needed a literal, sorry I wont post unfinished langs ever again. but tbf it is called todo
17:59:10 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86984&oldid=86983 * TheJonyMyster * (-2) /* Commands */
17:59:30 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86985&oldid=86984 * TheJonyMyster * (+3) /* Commands */
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18:09:52 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86986 * Dominicentek * (+8238) Created page with "Functionality is an esoteric programming language written by [[User:Dominicentek]] with the goal being having the most functionality as possible. == Instructions == {| class="..."
18:10:23 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86987&oldid=86986 * Dominicentek * (+18) Fixed missing table styling
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18:23:16 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86988&oldid=86987 * Dominicentek * (+177)
18:25:20 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86989&oldid=86904 * Dominicentek * (+20) /* F */
18:26:11 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86990&oldid=86988 * Dominicentek * (+18) Another fix for wiki table styling
18:27:49 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86991&oldid=86990 * Dominicentek * (+39) Yet another 2 fixes
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19:02:06 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=86992 * RocketRace * (+6956) Part 0
19:02:59 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86993&oldid=86992 * RocketRace * (-45) Forgot to add
19:13:25 <shachaf> `smlist 524
19:13:28 <HackEso> smlist 524: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
19:14:04 <int-e> `? smlist
19:14:07 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
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21:34:39 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86994&oldid=86989 * TheJonyMyster * (+11) added todo
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23:43:49 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86995&oldid=86985 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+48) Cats
23:46:54 <esolangs> [[Cpy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86996&oldid=86918 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-17) Fix name, rm redundant pipe
00:02:30 <zzo38> One idea I have is adding a format code into printf and scanf to indicate that this format string is used only to indicate the type and that the actual format string to use will be the next one (which might not use all of the data arguments, but it can know the type of arguments that are skipped, as well as other uses)
00:02:51 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86997&oldid=86995 * TheJonyMyster * (+12) added word to imply sequence
01:02:51 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86998&oldid=86977 * KakkoiiChris * (-90) /* Less (x < y) */ Fixed formatting
01:04:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=86999&oldid=86998 * KakkoiiChris * (-12) /* Assign (x = y) */ Fixed formatting
01:05:39 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87000&oldid=86999 * KakkoiiChris * (-138) /* String Input */ Fixed colors
01:06:33 <zzo38> Is there TeX implemented in PostScript, so that it is possible for PostScript codes to interfere with TeX codes (rather than only executing PostScript codes after TeX is finished)?
02:20:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, you could probably *compile* TeX into postscript with a custom translator
02:24:03 <zzo38> Yes, but: [1] I don't know of any such translator. [2] It won't be as good as doing it properly. [3] It will not interact with PostScript codes very well unless it is modified to do so.
02:28:18 <b_jonas> sure, you'd have to write a translator
02:28:22 <b_jonas> what do you mean properly?
02:28:31 <b_jonas> the proper way to run TeX is to use its original code
02:28:45 <b_jonas> so if you want to implement it in postscript, you compile the original code rather than reimplement it
02:29:36 <b_jonas> you could do it like pdflatex in that you don't use the part that writes the DVI to a file, and just run graphics primitives immediately
02:29:43 <b_jonas> but the part that does the layout is worth to keep
02:29:50 <zzo38> Yes, of course, if you do it the other way then it won't be TeX, but it will be similar. But, if PostScript codes are to interfere with TeX codes then it won't be TeX, it will be almost-TeX, I suppose.
02:30:33 <zzo38> In order to implement text formatting properly, probably another node type might be helpful, so that it can work properly if split across lines and pages, too.
02:34:03 <zzo38> Of course you would run the graphics primitives directly, but my idea is to do that during the \shipout operation (which would render a box and then the PostScript showpage operator)
02:36:05 <zzo38> Since it is not quite TeX, this also means \immediate could be usable with boxes too, in case you do want to render it immediately (possibly due to wanting to implement the page layout in PostScript)
02:42:33 <zzo38> Also, PostScript has its own memory management, too.
03:32:18 <zzo38> An alternative possibility would be implementing the typesetting algorithms of TeX in PostScript; it will not be compatible, although for some purposes it can be used. The token input of TeX can then also be implemented, too.
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04:30:02 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87001&oldid=86997 * TheJonyMyster * (+18) year category
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04:58:06 <esolangs> [[Todo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87002&oldid=87001 * TheJonyMyster * (+301) truth machine
05:00:09 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87003&oldid=87002 * TheJonyMyster * (+112) /* Truth machine */
05:08:52 <esolangs> [[Todo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87004&oldid=87003 * TheJonyMyster * (+251) fib + code credit
05:34:57 <zzo38> Today, a few times I turned on TI-92 calculator it reset the contrast (although no files or settings were lost, other than the contrast setting). It doesn't reset the contrast every time
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08:58:02 <nakilon> lol I've CTCP sent a nickname to an offline IRC user named "version"
08:58:39 <nakilon> I just can't remember the syntax; I suppose if you are online under the "version" nickname you'll get a lot of these
08:59:13 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87005&oldid=86661 * Dtuser1337 * (+190) /* loadallfile() */
08:59:19 <nakilon> and it probably won't even be classified as "mocking the network services"
09:00:06 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87006&oldid=87005 * Dtuser1337 * (-1)
09:07:02 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87007&oldid=87006 * Dtuser1337 * (+144) /* Function Commands */
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09:26:20 <esolangs> [[User talk:RocketRace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87008&oldid=71231 * Dtuser1337 * (+346) /* I've got a request for you */ new section
09:36:07 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87009&oldid=87007 * Dtuser1337 * (+13) /* File I/O Commands */
09:37:24 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87010&oldid=87009 * Dtuser1337 * (+36) /* File I/O Commands */
09:42:26 <nakilon> https://github.com/kspalaiologos/malbolge-lisp
09:43:07 <nakilon> I wonder why it's in 7z
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12:40:13 <esolangs> [[Talk:Haltingfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87011 * Silver * (+565) actually, not sure this is right
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17:09:11 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87012&oldid=86768 * Tomhe * (+645) fj.py, wflip 1-op
17:12:26 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87013&oldid=87012 * Tomhe * (+1) /* How To Run? */
17:13:02 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87014&oldid=87013 * Tomhe * (-21) /* How To Run? */
17:32:34 <zzo38> The syntax to send the CTCP is the same as other messages, it is PRIVMSG and then the target nick name and then the colon and data, but the data uses the CTRL+A before and after
17:36:26 <esolangs> [[Epicbebra]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87015 * Kemuri * (+11) Created page with "Coming soon"
18:21:53 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87016&oldid=86929 * Spargle * (+116) /* Ark: The esolang that is actually kind of useful. */
18:22:17 <esolangs> [[Ark]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87017&oldid=87016 * Spargle * (+1) /* note: when printing a string like this: **!B !L !A !H**, you must put a space in between each character. */
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20:43:38 <oerjan> sometimes those freefall robots are a little too creative for their own good
20:52:03 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87018&oldid=86153 * PixelatedStarfish * (-5) /* Esolangs */
20:57:38 <int-e> the danger of indefinite pronouns
20:58:18 <int-e> why isn't it "indefinitive"...
20:59:06 <int-e> confused by pronouns... indefinitely
21:00:05 <int-e> (I'm *actually* confused, too... "it" is a definite pronoun)
21:14:58 * oerjan wonders if int-e is responding to him but can see no pronoun ambiguity in what he wrote
21:16:24 <oerjan> . o O ( the danger of indefinite context )
21:18:20 <int-e> oerjan: the FF comic has a subject confusion
21:18:33 <int-e> or object confusion, whatever
21:49:43 <oerjan> oh duh
21:50:03 <oerjan> . o O ( forget my own head next )
21:50:48 * oerjan was archive binging girl genius a bit to see if that lady in today's last panel was in the museum they'd visited, but no.
21:52:02 <oerjan> i suppose it would be easier with colors
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21:54:07 <oerjan> wait is it a lady
21:55:22 <int-e> Oh, didn't read that because I got distracted by the lack of colors
21:55:40 <int-e> (causing me to check back on last Friday's comic which is still uncolored)
21:56:43 <oerjan> ah
21:57:12 <oerjan> well it doesn't resemble lord moonbark, so probably a lady, but have we seen her before?
21:58:02 <int-e> doesn't she resemble Agatha...
21:59:01 <int-e> Colors (like hair color) would help :P And we are in a time traveling universe.
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22:01:04 <oerjan> she does. but i don't think agatha was in such a position before they got her mother removed.
22:01:39 <int-e> Then, how about Lucrecia herself
22:02:10 <oerjan> i guess we'll see.
22:02:22 <int-e> That's my usual attitude to GG these days.
22:03:01 <oerjan> i have a hunch the mirrors aren't how the time travel is done, though. (remember van rijn'r prisoner who disappeared with a poof?)
22:03:11 <int-e> I would have to archive binge regularly to keep track of the myriad of plot lines.
22:03:26 <oerjan> (and was presumably lucrezia)
22:04:58 <int-e> We've seen them in action *once* and a couple of flashbacks... but yeah, it was consistent with pure teleportation.
22:05:13 <int-e> (As far as I recall)
22:06:18 <oerjan> well there are also the window apparitions agatha and dupree saw, but that was still "mirror" on only one end
22:07:20 <int-e> But those *were* traveling in time?
22:07:35 <oerjan> yes
22:07:57 <oerjan> at least the ones with future agatha etc. on the other side
22:08:31 <int-e> I guess technically they wouldn't have to be... they could be time traveling by other means and then use a mirror-like device to scan around :P
22:08:48 <int-e> But... that seems overly complicated even by GG standards.
22:14:16 <oerjan> back to "we'll see", then.
22:26:23 <b_jonas> maybe smoke is involved too, not just mirrors
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23:42:34 <esolangs> [[BSS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87019&oldid=80628 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+15) Unpipe, cat
23:53:06 <esolangs> [[LCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87020&oldid=86689 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+49) Cats
23:53:37 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87021&oldid=86994 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* L */ LCode
03:20:10 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87022&oldid=73615 * Razetime * (+63)
03:21:58 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87023&oldid=87022 * Razetime * (+11)
03:23:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87024&oldid=87023 * Razetime * (-6)
03:25:10 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87025&oldid=87024 * Razetime * (-10)
03:25:39 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87026&oldid=87025 * Razetime * (+9)
03:26:12 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87027&oldid=87026 * Razetime * (+10)
03:26:45 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87028&oldid=87027 * Razetime * (+2)
03:27:10 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87029&oldid=87028 * Razetime * (+0)
03:28:07 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87030&oldid=87029 * Razetime * (+7)
03:28:30 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87031&oldid=87000 * Razetime * (-45)
04:28:26 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87032&oldid=87031 * KakkoiiChris * (-4) /* Characters */ Fixed typo
04:32:48 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87033&oldid=87032 * KakkoiiChris * (+18) /* REPL */ Fixed formatting
06:02:37 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87034&oldid=87010 * Ais523 * (+400) this is TC
06:05:16 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87035&oldid=86320 * Xorol * (+829)
06:05:36 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87036&oldid=87035 * Xorol * (+3)
06:12:29 <esolangs> [[Template:Infobox proglang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87037&oldid=87030 * Ais523 * (-2) remove a stray paragraph break it's putting extra whitespace at the start of articles that use infoboxes, making them look badly styled
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13:36:00 <esolangs> [[MCBlocks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87038&oldid=86688 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+25) /* See also */ Cat
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14:07:25 <esolangs> [[SemicolonHash]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87039&oldid=86600 * Xorol * (+208) Added a python implementation
14:59:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PandaQwanda * New user account
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16:30:49 <zzo38> There is a multicodec number for murmur3-128, but the 128-bit version 3 MurmurHash depends on the computer type, and the multicodec specification does not (as far as I know) specify the computer type. This would mean that code 0x22 is worthless for use in files, URIs, etc; it still might be meaningful to pass as the argument to identify the hash type in a library to compute the hashes, for in memory use only.
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17:26:35 <fizzie> Did you know that "deer" rhymes with "mirror"? I didn't.
18:37:09 <int-e> do cares have stirring wills?
18:47:09 <nakilon> one of my favourite subs: https://www.reddit.com/r/holdmydeer/
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20:13:19 <riv> so
20:13:31 <riv> conlang critic is doing a pokerap in toki pona
20:20:23 <myname> nice
20:33:45 <Melvar> oh no
20:53:48 <hendursaga> riv: pokerap?
20:53:59 <hendursaga> I saw there was a video review some time ago for Toki Pona
22:24:41 <shachaf> `smlist 525
22:24:44 <HackEso> smlist 525: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
22:30:07 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87040 * TeamLightning * (+414) Created page with "==Overview== The PL2 vCPU is a currently in-progress esoteric C++ virtual CPU made by [[User:TeamLightning|TeamLightning]] as a lower-level successor to [[PainLang]]. As of th..."
22:33:37 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87041&oldid=83611 * TeamLightning * (+71)
22:35:15 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87042&oldid=87041 * TeamLightning * (+1)
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22:38:37 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87043&oldid=83694 * TeamLightning * (+11) Updated /*Computational class*/ to reflect changeable tape length
22:46:37 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87044&oldid=87040 * TeamLightning * (+82) Added categories
22:47:02 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87045&oldid=87044 * TeamLightning * (-1) one too many colons
22:51:08 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87046&oldid=87045 * TeamLightning * (-4) /* Implementations */ update to change "I know of" to "known"
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23:25:31 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87047&oldid=87046 * Ais523 * (-14) per policy, make sure that the User: prefix on links to userspace is visible
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03:11:01 <esolangs> [[Heck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87048 * PixelatedStarfish * (+192) Created page with "'''Heck''' is a programing language designed such that source code is expressible as a hexadecimal number. It was created by [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] in 2021. The interprete..."
03:14:37 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87049&oldid=87048 * PixelatedStarfish * (+127)
03:14:52 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87050&oldid=87049 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2)
03:15:51 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87051&oldid=87050 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
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03:28:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87052&oldid=87051 * PixelatedStarfish * (+840)
03:28:44 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87053&oldid=87052 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Operations in Heck */
03:29:19 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87054&oldid=87053 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
03:35:34 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87055&oldid=87054 * PixelatedStarfish * (+263)
03:36:41 * nakilon thinks about giving up with the idea to make a RASEL IDE with GUI libraries
03:37:08 <nakilon> I mean the GUI libraries that use the common OS primitives
03:37:22 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87056&oldid=87055 * PixelatedStarfish * (+68) /* Grammar */
03:37:44 <nakilon> instead I'll probably rather make it in more stupid way -- using ruby2d, working with primitives, like Rectangle, key press events and stuff
03:38:32 <nakilon> no text inputs and dialogs though
03:39:43 <nakilon> so you'll run the program immediately specifying a single file you edit
03:40:05 <nakilon> something like .rasela extension meaning "annotated rasel"
03:43:37 <nakilon> and bin/rasel-convert to convert between them
03:45:28 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87057&oldid=87056 * PixelatedStarfish * (+63)
03:48:19 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87058&oldid=87057 * PixelatedStarfish * (+24) /* Hello World */
03:51:54 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87059&oldid=87058 * PixelatedStarfish * (+156)
03:52:00 <nakilon> oooooor
03:52:29 <nakilon> I could make it in JS/CSS http://localhost
03:52:44 <nakilon> I suck in CSS though
03:52:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87060&oldid=87059 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
03:58:18 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87061&oldid=87018 * PixelatedStarfish * (+98) /* Esolangs */
03:59:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87062&oldid=87061 * PixelatedStarfish * (+11) /* Esolangs */
04:03:14 <nakilon> 20:32:35 <zzo38> The syntax to send the CTCP is the same as other messages
04:03:46 <nakilon> maybe, but in the IRC client I'm not writing raw messages, I'm using the shortcuts provided
04:04:07 <nakilon> such as /nickserv info <nickname> -- it's not /nickserv <nickname> info
04:04:39 <nakilon> and so /ctcp version <nickname> is intuitive but invalid
04:06:59 <nakilon> *wrong
04:12:16 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87063&oldid=87004 * TheJonyMyster * (+13) shh
04:12:34 <myname> well, /nickserv is not an irc command.
04:12:40 <esolangs> [[Todo]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87064&oldid=87063 * TheJonyMyster * (-2) shhh
04:14:41 <nakilon> neither is ctcp
04:17:39 <zzo38> NICKSERV (which can be abbreviated as NS) is a common extension, even though it is not a standard IRC command
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04:51:36 <myname> but /nickserv is just an abbreviation for /msg nickserv and does follow the format /command <user> message
05:03:27 <myname> you could just as well make /info as an alias for /msg nickserv info
05:05:24 <nakilon> /ctcp is just an abbreviation too
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07:45:28 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1FXQMmXYoA
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13:05:49 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87065&oldid=87060 * PixelatedStarfish * (+156)
13:10:32 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87066&oldid=87065 * PixelatedStarfish * (+141)
13:11:47 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87067&oldid=87066 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* Hello World */
13:12:05 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87068&oldid=87067 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Hello World */
13:17:41 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87069&oldid=87068 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1)
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13:32:10 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87070&oldid=87069 * PixelatedStarfish * (+22)
13:35:03 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87071&oldid=87070 * PixelatedStarfish * (+119)
13:35:20 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87072&oldid=87071 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1)
13:36:51 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87073&oldid=87072 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0)
13:37:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87074&oldid=87073 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* Syntax and Grammar in EBNF */
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15:05:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87075&oldid=87033 * KakkoiiChris * (+124) /* Numbers */ Added the random and size dynamic literals
15:09:20 <b_jonas> myname: freenode has NICKSERV as a command alias which sends privmsg to NickServ. this has the advantage that if you typo NickServ's name, you won't send your nickserv password to someone phishing for them
15:09:41 <b_jonas> this is not a problem if you're using a client-side alias instead of course
15:20:08 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87076&oldid=87062 * PixelatedStarfish * (-42) /* Esolangs */
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15:24:17 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87077&oldid=87074 * PixelatedStarfish * (+191) /* Program Examples */
15:25:14 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87078&oldid=87077 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Truth Machine */
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16:56:32 <esolangs> [[User:DoggyDogWhirl]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87079&oldid=65176 * DoggyDogWhirl * (+1) misspelled hadn't
17:07:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Daggy1234 * New user account
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17:08:30 <daggy1234> hello
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17:20:45 <daggy1234[m]> hi
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19:18:53 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87080&oldid=86748 * Dominicentek * (+32)
19:44:23 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87081&oldid=86991 * Dominicentek * (+2) Fixed typo
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21:26:56 <int-e> Oh the ꙮ got a mention in xkcd this week.
21:27:46 <int-e> `' ꙮ
21:27:49 <HackEso> 1125) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
21:40:15 <oerjan> hm somehow i've missed 2 xkcds
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21:42:06 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I mentioned that
21:42:33 <b_jonas> int-e: https://logs.esolangs.org/libera-esolangs/2021-08.html#lBh
21:47:57 <shachaf> Truly my greatest work.
21:59:26 <esolangs> [[PainLang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87082&oldid=87043 * TeamLightning * (-14) /* Overview */ changed link text to include User: on userspace link
22:09:58 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87083&oldid=87047 * TeamLightning * (+25) changed implementations to state that the only known implementation also covers the PL2 assembler
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22:25:22 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87084&oldid=87083 * TeamLightning * (+719) Added (machine code) Hello World example, changed Overview to state that PL2 is extensible
22:26:51 <teaml> ill go ahead and apologize in advance for the painful oneliner above edit added, im working on the assembler and will replace that example once the PL2 assembly works
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23:04:11 <keegan> int-e: oh?
23:04:36 <keegan> oh, alt text to #2497
23:04:40 <keegan> fine
23:04:46 <keegan> i liked multiocular o before it was cool
23:05:10 <nakilon> 10:45:28 <riv> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1FXQMmXYoA - awesome
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00:22:04 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87085&oldid=87075 * KakkoiiChris * (+389) /* Binary Operators */ Added mod operator section
00:24:46 <nakilon> https://i.redd.it/46fs3yad25g71.jpg
00:25:06 <b_jonas> I think I disliked multiocular o before it was cool
00:37:34 <keegan> wow
00:37:39 <keegan> that's even cooler than liking it before it was cool
00:40:26 <b_jonas> but I think it's not a specific hate for multiocular o, it's just a general hate for when people substitute the incorrect letter just because it's cool, including using metal umlauts or fake cyrillic
00:40:38 <b_jonas> s/ fake / faux /
00:44:52 <fizzie> How about when people just drop diacritical marks assuming they can't be that important?
00:45:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't mind that too much except in a few cases where there is an ambiguity
00:46:00 <b_jonas> Hungarian is great for this by the way
00:46:47 <b_jonas> like because of the vowel harmony, you can sometimes recover the distinction between o and ö from a suffix
00:47:37 <b_jonas> and you can usually guess between a and á and between e and é, or the distinction doesn't matter, though there are a few specific cases where they do matter and cause an ambiguity and you should keep the accent if the context is confusing
00:48:06 <b_jonas> I participate in quite some online chat in Hungarian where a lot of users (including me) drop the accents
00:48:07 <fizzie> I remember trying to find the most semantically disastrous pairing of words in Finnish distinguished only by a/ä or o/ö differences, but I don't think I came up with any particularly great examples. There's a lot of word pairs with entirely different meanings, but mostly they're just things where substituting the other word in any plausible sense just makes it sound like nonsense.
00:48:50 <fizzie> Although välittää 'to care' and valittaa 'to complain' maybe has some potential.
00:49:02 <fizzie> Maybe in a relationship setting.
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00:49:29 <b_jonas> fizzie: an example I find quite humorous is a certain ad that only shows a domain name "boresmez.hu", which could stand for either "bor és méz" or "bőr és mez". but you can't get this sort of thing if there's more context.
00:49:30 <keegan> https://gizmodo.com/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-m-382026
00:50:14 <b_jonas> the majority of what actually cause problems in practice are ambiguities in noun suffixes, though there are also a few where the ambiguity is in the word root
00:52:05 <fizzie> keegan: Oh, that reminds me of the one that actually does regularly come up in IRC conversations, namely näin ("I saw") vs. nain (colloquialism for "I fucked"), especially when you're trying to say you saw someone you knew somewhere.
00:59:56 <keegan> ha
00:59:59 <keegan> that could be awkward, yes
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01:00:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, but there are so many words that are slang for sex that they always cause ambiguities. one I particularly hate is "make out" which can mean to percieve
01:00:45 <b_jonas> usually it's transitive when it means perceive and intransitive when it's about sex, but not always
01:09:15 <keegan> heh
01:09:50 <keegan> making out doesn't strictly mean sex, at least in american english
01:10:55 <b_jonas> sure
01:11:06 <keegan> but it is conceptually adjacent
01:11:34 <b_jonas> I think there were a few other English ambiguities similar to this, but I can't recall them right now
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05:15:13 <Melvar> I have written a binding to sendmsg(2)/recvmsg(2) in Haskell and found that the tests I then wrote did pass, so passing file descriptors over a unix socket with my binding works.
05:15:22 <Melvar> However, I then discoverd something *very annoying*.
05:16:59 <Melvar> If a stream socket is used, and one side sends a chunk with some fds, then if the other side receives this section of the message as two chunks, the fds will be attached to the *first* of them.
05:18:13 <Melvar> This is annoying because one might want to send a logical message as one chunk with fds, but have the message include a header that specifies how many fds should be expected (since the receiver must allocate memory to receive them in).
05:19:20 <Melvar> So this is not possible, since the receiver cannot receive the header before receiving the fds.
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05:34:02 <zzo38> Then you should have to expect a reply, I suppose
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05:46:33 <Melvar> Since this is because I want to play around with the wayland protocol, I’m looking what they actually do in their own C code, and, well, they buffer outbound messages so basically you can’t know in advance where in the stream the fds are attached at all. You just have to always expect up to 28 (that’s a #define in their code) and maintain a queue of them alongside reading messages from the
05:46:35 <Melvar> socket.
05:48:15 <shachaf> Wait, the Wayland protocol sends file descriptors over a stream socket?
05:48:27 <Melvar> Yes.
05:49:17 <shachaf> Well, I guess the best thing to be said in favor of the Wayland protocol is that you're pretty much not allowed to implement it yourself anyway.
05:49:28 <shachaf> So it doesn't matter what nonsense they do.
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06:16:25 <Melvar> One of the things they’re used for is to avoid sending bulk data in-band. I think if you copy-paste something, the actual data never passes through the server, one client just sends an fd which the server then sends to another client who can then read the clipboard content from it.
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07:15:43 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87086&oldid=84499 * Zzo38 * (+616)
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10:31:07 <esolangs> [[BF instruction minimalization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87087&oldid=80413 * WallGraffiti * (+0)
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12:55:34 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Markverb1 * New user account
13:00:02 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87088&oldid=86888 * Markverb1 * (+275) added my name to here
13:09:26 <esolangs> [[User:Markverb1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87089 * Markverb1 * (+551) Created page with "<big><center><b><span class="made with colorize_fun"><span style="color:#6500ff;">m</span><span style="color:#5f00fe;">a</span><span style="color:#5900fe;">r</span><span style..."
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15:03:04 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87090&oldid=86340 * Martsadas * (-130)
15:06:35 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87091&oldid=87090 * Martsadas * (+23713)
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16:40:01 <river> hello esotericians
16:40:30 <nakilon> why?... https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%F0%92%80%B1
16:40:53 <river> Woah!!!!
16:40:59 <river> thats so cool thanks for sharing
16:41:15 <nakilon> use it now as a variable identifier
16:41:18 <nakilon> everywhere
16:44:13 <nakilon> https://www.reddit.com/r/Unicode/comments/5qa7e7/widestlongest_unicode_characters_list/
16:45:22 <nakilon> ̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺̺ͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩͩ
16:46:29 <nakilon> https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+130B8#:~:text=Unicode%20Character%20%E2%80%9C%F0%93%82%B8%E2%80%9D%20(U,Egyptian%20Hieroglyph%20D052
16:47:06 <nakilon> omg that's all the alphabet I need 𓂸
16:47:31 <river> 𓂸𓂸𓂸𓂸
16:47:36 <river> haha
16:47:45 <river> i love unicode
16:47:56 <river> they're adding pregnant men emojis now
16:48:11 <river> https://emojipedia.org/unicode-14.0/
16:48:20 <river> every possible permutation and combination of emojis needs to be added
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16:51:50 <myname> my favourite unicode symbol is "invisible plus"
16:52:04 <river> ,u invisible plus
16:52:13 <river> there it is
16:52:36 <river> invisible times separator and plus
16:53:07 <river> not to be confused with zero width joiner
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17:08:47 <nakilon> 20:08:38 *** 𓂸: Erroneous Nickname
17:08:49 <nakilon> damn
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17:16:31 <nakilon> someone really should declare a unicode version without useless stuff
17:17:03 <nakilon> there is no need of storing images of pregnant men and shumere symbols on all my devices, I just don't want them
17:18:17 <fizzie> I don't know if you necessarily need a different Unicode version for that, you just need a font with less coverage.
17:18:43 <nakilon> maybe
17:18:54 <fizzie> `' may you live
17:18:55 <HackEso> 990) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
17:20:43 <Corbin> That's pretty nifty. It renews the hope of typesetting maths with Unicode alone.
17:22:34 <nakilon> I'm ok with ability to use the same application and font to be able to write text to each other using native alphabets of all existing languages on the earth
17:23:20 <nakilon> but pregnant men isn't a language, it's just a "random" image that I might not want to be inserted in my screen in random chats
17:25:38 <nakilon> I would limit color usage at all
17:26:18 <nakilon> to only maybe country flags and as a modifier to usual symbols to make is possible to type a red circle, green arrow, etc.
17:26:55 <Corbin> What's a "green arrow"? Doesn't sound like a language, just some random image~
17:27:19 <nakilon> ok, remove colors then
17:27:31 <nakilon> apply styles in other ways
17:29:33 <Corbin> Or maybe Unicode's bigger than your individual needs and desires.
17:30:09 <nakilon> it's them who are pushing their personal needs and desires onto my screen
17:30:44 <nakilon> pushing their things into a standard
17:31:24 <nakilon> forcing my software download the pictures I don't want with every update
17:32:09 <keegan> waah waah
17:32:23 <keegan> who gives a shit
17:32:55 <keegan> aren't there bigger problems in the world
17:33:22 <keegan> are you also upset about all the flags of countries you don't like and all the symbols of religions you don't adhere to
17:33:23 <Corbin> That's a fallacy. No amount of improvement to Unicode will magically put food onto peoples' plates, for example.
17:33:29 <keegan> why shouldn't unicode be for you and only you
17:33:56 <Corbin> But yeah, basically, Unicode is an international diplomatic project too, not just an engineering project.
17:34:27 <nakilon> where did I say I'm "upset about the flags of countries I don't like"?
17:34:43 <keegan> you sound like the people who get angry because starbucks didn't write "merry christmas" on their coffee cup
17:34:44 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87092 * Martsadas * (+1399) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=:)}} <br> <nowiki>:)</nowiki> is an esolang that only uses smileys<br> <br> Valid tokens <nowiki>:) :P :] :> :D :O</nowiki><br> <br> Valid instructions:<br>..."
17:35:10 <nakilon> don't bring the politics in here
17:35:19 <keegan> you already did
17:35:27 <nakilon> what?
17:36:56 <Corbin> The position that there is "useless stuff" in Unicode is political.
17:37:05 <nakilon> woah
17:37:58 <Corbin> Seriously! fizzie had an excellent summary of why in their first reply: You can customize your own display of Unicode in any way that you want, assuming you control your computer. You can choose whichever fonts you like, and you can configure your renderer to avoid wasting energy decoding "useless" code points.
17:38:36 <Corbin> Going beyond that, altering the shared standard itself, is quite political, even ignoring the geopolitics and diplomacy: You're trying to change policies which affect many people.
17:38:41 <nakilon> that's what the community projects are for
17:38:59 <nakilon> reject bad standards, adopting better standards
17:39:41 <nakilon> they are changing the policies that are affecting me
17:39:47 <nakilon> and all the people
17:40:22 <nakilon> when my grandma bought a smartphone she didn't accept the policy of getting egyptian dickpics in SMS
17:41:31 <nakilon> lots of codepages were invented in lots of countries for their local needs and that's what unicode was supposed to solve by uniting the alphabets and the most basic symbols
17:41:34 <nakilon> but it went shit
17:42:00 <Corbin> Ambiguous "they" fallacy. The "they" who produce smartphone fonts (Apple, Google) are not the Unicode Consortium.
17:42:31 <nakilon> I didn't say apple and google did that
17:43:04 <nakilon> but they would be able to switch or provide an option to switch to a new standard without shit
17:44:49 <nakilon> 20:34:27 <nakilon> where did I say I'm "upset about the flags of countries I don't like"?
17:44:58 <nakilon> the question is still not answered
17:44:58 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87093&oldid=87078 * PixelatedStarfish * (+62)
17:45:26 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded "[[File:Hing.png]]"
17:46:49 <keegan> it was a question not a statement
17:47:32 <nakilon> okay
17:49:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * PixelatedStarfish * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Hing.png]]"
17:50:47 <nakilon> those who want more symbols can just "customize their own display of Unicode"
17:51:05 <nakilon> not mine
17:52:06 <b_jonas> the country flags in Unicode are seriously messed up, because the individual flags are not encoded directly, but through their ISO-3166-1 codes, and those codes can be reassigned to entirely unrelated countries, which means that if you encode a flag in unicode, it can be replaced by an entirely different flag later. The whole thing is so new that only like two codes got reassigned so far, and those were
17:52:12 <b_jonas> probably before the flags got encoded in unicode this way, but this is the kind of short-sited arrangement by people who don't care what happens after they leave their current job, because they won't be accountable.
17:52:43 <b_jonas> (Same as the people who ask for abolishing leap seconds, because it would make their job right now easier, and who cares what happens a hundred years from now. I hate those people.)
17:53:23 <b_jonas> And it looks like not two but three ISO-3166-1 country codes got reassigned so far.
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17:54:48 <b_jonas> The whole thing goes against the general idea that unicode code points should have a permanent meaning that isn't changed in the future. Was probably invented by Americans who don't realize how often countries change.
17:55:11 <b_jonas> Really trying to assign two-letter codes to countries was a disastrously stupid idea in first place.
17:55:15 <Corbin> Yeah, that's such a bogus situation. Somebody thought that they were being clever, but really they should have given an entire block over for country flags and left the top half unused for expansion.
17:56:33 <int-e> . o O ( What happens if we ever get more than 676 countries? Maybe at that point we'd be too busy fighting to worry about country codes)
17:56:42 <b_jonas> That's only an inventory for 676 codes, for a changing pool of about 200 countries.
17:57:10 <Melvar> Assuming you’re talking about flag emoji … technically the codepoints have fixed meaning: they are simply references to a separate standard (the one which assigns the two-letter codes).
17:57:32 <int-e> twist: 677 countries fighting over who doesn't get a two letter country code.
17:57:36 <nakilon> how often do you use unicode flags anyway? I see them in games and on websites, and browsers are perfectly fine with inserting small gif/png pictures for them, and even if you browser is textual it's fine to write the language as a text
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17:58:05 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it's only at 678 countries. at 677 countries, one of them is Taiwan and they can't get one anyway.
17:58:39 <nakilon> this is political
17:58:40 <int-e> b_jonas: too real
17:58:48 <b_jonas> though in practice there are quite some of those codes reserved for things that aren't countries, or aren't countries anymore, but were in too recent past and can't be reassigned yet
17:59:07 <b_jonas> the stupidest part is that they also delete and reassign the corresonding top-level domain names
17:59:48 <b_jonas> I'm not talking about the ones that are reassigned, because nobody really used the west sahara TLD, but about the Yugoslavia ones that were in some use but then got deleted
17:59:57 <nakilon> I was falsely muted on this channel when people brought politics in and I wasn't doing that
17:59:57 <b_jonas> it's the ultimate way to break links
18:00:30 <orichalcumcosmon> b_jonas: there is a taiwan flag emoji tho? https://emojipedia.org/flag-taiwan/
18:01:14 <nakilon> or will you finally admit you muted me just because I'm Russian?
18:01:40 <nakilon> I won't be muted if I was American and just quoting the history of Indians
18:04:31 <nakilon> you -- users of this channel other than me -- were political; you were saying that this country is bad, this one is good, etc. -- I didn't say that, those were your words, your hate; and then you said a blatant lie that those were my words
18:05:21 <nakilon> and then muted me for a chat message a one page above YOUR hate messages, where I just quoted a historical fact
18:08:32 <Corbin> Just because you can't recognize when you pick political topics, does not mean that the topics weren't political.
18:09:51 <nakilon> sure, Yugoslavia and Taiwan sin't political, Russia is
18:10:55 <nakilon> you can't recognize when you apply double standards
18:11:09 <river> whats the deal with taiwan?
18:11:41 <river> nakilon: was this today you got muted?
18:11:52 <nakilon> not today
18:11:56 <river> ok
18:12:40 <nakilon> but I never had an apology for the repetitive hate towards me by a small subset of local users
18:13:27 <river> i dont know what happened
18:13:39 <river> but my advice is forget about it
18:13:43 <river> it probably doesn't matter
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18:15:13 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87096&oldid=87092 * Martsadas * (+905)
18:17:22 <river> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan this is annoying
18:17:28 <river> they just should sort it out
18:17:33 <river> should just*
18:18:02 <fizzie> I agree, they should just sort out all problems, then we wouldn't have any problems.
18:18:09 <river> +1
18:18:21 <fizzie> The first rule of tautology club and all that.
18:18:25 <nakilon> I don't have a problem with them
18:18:33 <nakilon> they are thousands of kilometers away
18:20:38 <nakilon> I know a girl who studies a lot and learns Chinese to move to China
18:21:37 <nakilon> I mean mandarine or whatever it is, I have no clue
18:23:15 <b_jonas> river: nah, we're probably happier while nothing is "sorted out", because that's a euphemism for war
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18:46:12 <keegan> what would the country code for independent California be? .ca is already taken
18:52:47 <nakilon> Georgia also already exists
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18:59:25 <b_jonas> keegan: us-CA
19:01:10 <keegan> that's not a 2 letter country code
19:01:49 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87097&oldid=87096 * Martsadas * (+4380)
19:02:25 <keegan> cf is taken too
19:02:37 <keegan> by the Central African Republic
19:03:40 <keegan> in fact C followed by any of ALIFORN are all taken
19:04:16 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87098&oldid=87097 * Martsadas * (+50)
19:04:43 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87099&oldid=86766 * Martsadas * (+30)
19:05:07 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87100&oldid=87099 * Martsadas * (+0)
19:05:21 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87101&oldid=87100 * Martsadas * (+4)
19:06:34 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87102&oldid=87098 * Martsadas * (+0)
19:17:08 <b_jonas> yes, because there are only 676 two-letter codes and some letters are rare
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19:17:57 <orichalcumcosmon> there’s 17576 3-letter codes
19:18:05 <orichalcumcosmon> maybe one of those would fit
19:18:31 <orichalcumcosmon> or was that language codes
19:35:32 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87103&oldid=87081 * Dominicentek * (-1)
19:43:52 <int-e> nakilon: Well, I'm sorry that you feel wronged.
19:44:57 <int-e> (It's hard to never be wrong.)
19:47:43 <river> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmfdeWd0RMk
19:47:46 <river> i linked this before
19:47:52 <river> but its good so i have linked it again
20:13:45 <int-e> Meh. The "joke" (buried in the middle of the video) is basing a system of measurements on 3 units all starting with c: c, the speed of light; cal, the calory, and C_4, the frequency of the middle C.
20:14:00 <int-e> As far as I can tell, the rest is a lecture on units of measurements.
20:15:59 <river> yes
20:16:04 <river> i thought that was funny
20:16:10 <river> sorry you didn't like it as much
20:17:15 <int-e> It's a cute idea but I resent the attempt to waste my time (I clicked around the video until I found the joke instead)
20:18:07 <fizzie> I was wasting time anyway, so I don't resent that bit, but I was left disappointed because I was expecting a pun.
20:18:20 <b_jonas> int-e: is that like the furlong fortnight wahtever the third was unit system?
20:18:30 <fizzie> The FFF system is mentioned in the video, yes.
20:18:32 <Melvar> (firkin)
20:18:38 <river> hmmm
20:18:45 <river> i never thought of it as wasting time on purpose
20:21:53 <int-e> river: it's not exactly the video author's fault; aiui, youtube monetizes videos based on the time people spend watching them
20:25:20 <b_jonas> farad
20:25:24 <b_jonas> or fahrenheit
20:43:04 <b_jonas> `q motio
20:43:05 <HackEso> 482) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
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21:38:03 <int-e> . o O ( The trick to making a perpetuum mobile is to just keep going. )
21:39:06 <river> you need a crank that never stops
21:39:17 <river> turning
21:39:40 <fizzie> "Isn't that what all the perpetual motion proponents are, cranks that never stop?"
21:40:29 <b_jonas> `q motio
21:40:30 <HackEso> 482) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
21:40:47 <b_jonas> still the same
21:41:38 <fizzie> There's a song about perpetual motion machine, but the lyrics are in Finnish, so I think you'll miss a lot of it, sorry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE7TOaTv3SI
21:41:44 <fizzie> The original is in Swedish, I believe.
21:42:28 <b_jonas> is it one of those infinite songs?
21:42:33 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_is_the_song_that_never_ends
21:42:49 <fizzie> No, it just describes a machine that produces electricity to keep itself going.
21:44:45 <fizzie> In Swedish, for reasons of fairness and equal time and all that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtua8rqCNC0
21:47:50 <fizzie> I did find an a cappella group doing a version in English at a live show in South Korea too, but...
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22:10:31 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87104&oldid=87084 * TeamLightning * (+25) Changed Hello World to PL2 ASM, changed commit.
22:10:38 <nakilon> where is fungot
22:11:27 <nakilon> I just wanted to ask him if he's perpetual but he appears to be not _--
22:17:23 <fizzie> Oh, huh.
22:19:10 <fizzie> It'll have been that TCP connection thing we discussed the last time this happened.
22:19:43 <fizzie> Which I said it won't help to solve until I can teach the Befunge part to (a) persist the ignore list and (b) autojoin channels, which takes some :effort:.
22:19:48 <fizzie> Let's just fix it manually again.
22:19:58 <int-e> . o O ( optimistic TCP: the connection is half open )
22:20:28 -!- fungot has joined.
22:20:43 <fizzie> It dropped off already on Aug 4 and I didn't notice. :/
22:21:37 <int-e> ^style
22:21:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp ukparl youtube
22:21:46 <int-e> fungot: what ircs you, my friend?
22:21:46 <fungot> int-e: s/ thins/ this/
22:23:12 <b_jonas> fungot, is the future always in motion?
22:23:12 <fungot> b_jonas: or is there some way to represent the fnord system and all local names are determined in the binary to install.
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22:55:33 <nakilon> I hate to do temporal workarounds and doing things in the unplanned order
22:55:45 <nakilon> so velik is currently waiting for when I finish making my monitoring thing
22:56:06 <nakilon> and it weights when google fix the bug on their side
22:56:09 <nakilon> *waits
22:58:07 <nakilon> and I have no idea when it will be fixed because their ticket shows up as "195636524[Details unavailable.]"
22:58:25 <nakilon> (195 mln tickets?...)
23:08:03 <fizzie> Tempted to look that up, but I couldn't comment even if I did, so it'd be pretty pointless.
23:31:36 <nakilon> what? you can look up internal google tickets?
23:35:02 <fizzie> Well, I work there, and most of the time bugs with numbers like that are viewable to all employees. Though that might well be one of the exceptions, if it's a customer issue and might contain some identifying details.
23:36:32 <nakilon> woah
23:36:53 <nakilon> for how long you work there?
23:37:22 <fizzie> For a while now, since 2015.
23:41:54 <nakilon> that's cool; the Moscow office isn't for devs, only for client managers
23:42:49 <nakilon> AFAIK
23:48:46 <nakilon> what problems are you solving there?
23:49:11 <fizzie> Re offices, from what I've heard, the Helsinki office has like 12 people in it. And is just a few rented rooms in a building. Haven't even visited.
23:50:14 <fizzie> In terms of that, I've been keeping it on the level of "Android app development", that way I don't have to worry about what's public and what's not.
23:50:42 <fizzie> I think there's Cloud folks in our building somewhere though.
23:51:15 <int-e> rainmakers
23:51:17 <fizzie> And Deepmind used to have two floors of it, they're the sexy and mysterious ones. Had it all locked down and everything.
23:52:08 <fizzie> There was a robotics lab or two in the floor plans in their bit.
23:52:42 <fizzie> (They've moved out now.)
23:56:17 <nakilon> have you seen a fancy 'g"-shaped chair?
23:57:45 <nakilon> there is one on the floor here where they do public meetups
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23:59:41 <oerjan> int-e: ok, i interpreted the previous girl genius wrong, but at least i can blame the initial lack of color.
00:00:11 <nakilon> oh they have it in google street view https://goo.gl/maps/wd5fpPybgA4GNy9KA
00:02:43 <nakilon> chair is gone; but looks like you can have a virtual walk in the working space; they blurred a lot
00:03:05 <fizzie> Was going to say, not seeing a g-shaped chair.
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00:09:01 <fizzie> I've not been to that many offices, but of the ones I've been to, I think the Zürich one's been the most whimsical. They've got a lot of these old ski lift cabins redecorated and repurposed for ad-hoc meetings. No Street View, though.
00:09:09 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87105&oldid=87091 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+530) Fxi mrinoer tpyose
00:36:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: so you still work at Google? also the chairs are g-shaped when viewed from which direction? are they rocking chairs?
00:36:54 <fizzie> I haven't seen these chairs.
00:37:28 <fizzie> We've got some vaguely S-shaped chairs in some of the non-working spaces, I think they're a moderately well-known designer chair.
00:38:00 <oerjan> all you need to change S to g is to push hard in the right place hth
00:38:08 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panton_Chair <- those things
00:38:28 <fizzie> "The world's first moulded plastic chair, it is considered to be one of the masterpieces of Danish design."
00:40:44 <b_jonas> oh, that's S-shaped without the top of the S. that's easy.
00:42:05 <int-e> oerjan: I still don't remember who that is though :P
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00:43:57 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/ZhywAwZ.png
00:44:17 * nakilon sighs about his idea of making IDE in CSS
00:44:47 <teaml> thats an idea that pains me very much
00:44:50 <teaml> please try it
00:44:56 <nakilon> _--
00:45:35 <teaml> can you even do that?
00:45:41 <teaml> is css that advanced?
00:45:54 <nakilon> it's js, jquery
00:46:24 <teaml> not the object Object
00:46:28 <teaml> making IDE in CSS
00:47:41 <nakilon> found the chair https://www.setaprint.net/2015/07/letter-g-chair/
00:47:47 <nakilon> but it was painted in brand colors
00:52:27 <b_jonas> ah
00:57:33 <oerjan> int-e: that's lord moonbark, who i specifically excluded it being
00:58:32 <oerjan> int-e: he's the one who showed gil and trelawney thorpe the mirror in londinium
00:59:15 <int-e> so many traitors
01:02:52 <oerjan> i was also confused by him fashionably wearing different clothes every time he appears
01:04:12 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87106&oldid=87036 * Xorol * (-49)
01:04:55 <oerjan> i suppose a lot of the cast do that, but somehow that made it easier to believe it wasn't him on the first checking
01:06:59 <oerjan> . o O ( well we _are_ talking about a comic that has regularly made paper doll outfits as fan service )
01:07:43 <oerjan> might be about time for a new intermission with H. Fashion Clank
01:13:00 <int-e> or another month of the circus people doing a radio show?
01:13:23 <int-e> this comic has had soooo many intermissions
01:13:39 <int-e> tbf it is a rather long-running one too
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01:25:58 <esolangs> [[Numbers]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87107&oldid=87106 * Xorol * (+470) Added a proof of turing-completeness
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01:27:18 <b_jonas> int-e: and it's one of multiple comics that #esoteric is so much into that I keep consider if I should binge read it at some point. especially as I believe #esoteric,'s recommendation was most of what pushed me to read OotS, and I enjoy OotS a lot
01:27:55 <oerjan> int-e: i don't remember it being the circus people, thought it was the foglio author avatars
01:28:20 <oerjan> although back when it ran, that may have been less obvious
01:28:54 <oerjan> `? comics
01:28:58 <HackEso> Recommended comics include Yet Another Genius Gamer, Stuck Girl, Home of the Order, and Fantasy Stick Comic. The content of this list is not to be questioned.
01:29:01 <int-e> oerjan: you're more likely to be right than I am
01:29:03 <int-e> :P
01:29:09 <oerjan> OF COURSE I AM
01:29:16 <oerjan> although maybe i should check
01:29:30 <b_jonas> huh, I don't recall that thing
01:30:24 <b_jonas> `? o
01:30:26 <HackEso> o is a popular comedy fantasy webcomic. It's about a group called the Order of the Stick, as they go about their adventures with minimal competence, and eventually stumble into a plan by an undead sorcerer to conquer the world, and they're out to stop him and conquer their personal problems at the same time. Hopefully not in that order.
01:30:31 <b_jonas> `? olist
01:30:32 <HackEso> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
01:32:48 <b_jonas> `? g
01:32:50 <HackEso> g? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:32:58 <b_jonas> `? glist
01:32:59 <b_jonas> `? slist
01:33:00 <HackEso> glist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:33:01 <b_jonas> `? smlist
01:33:01 <HackEso> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
01:33:03 <HackEso> Non-update notification for the webcomic Super Mega.
01:33:10 <b_jonas> `? gglist
01:33:11 <HackEso> gglist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:33:50 <int-e> `? xkcdlist
01:33:51 <HackEso> xkcdlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:33:57 <oerjan> b_jonas: girl genius updates too regularly to have a list
01:33:58 <int-e> `? iwclist
01:34:00 <HackEso> iwclist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:34:08 <b_jonas> yeah
01:34:26 <int-e> `? swlist
01:34:28 <HackEso> swlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:34:28 <oerjan> yafgc could be debated, but it updates frequently when it does
01:34:42 <b_jonas> and IWC updates regularly except it updates an hour earlier than it should
01:35:07 <int-e> `? ksbdlist
01:35:10 <HackEso> ksbdlist? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:35:13 <oerjan> i haven't got back to iwc since my hiatus
01:35:43 <int-e> (sw is something some people here might recognize... if someone guesses ksbd that would surprise me a little bit, I guess)
01:37:12 <int-e> Actually I'm reading two comics that fit "sw", fun.
01:37:32 <b_jonas> I used to ring the pbflist, but then I started disliking that comic strip so I stopped with the update notifications, but also didn't dare to remove the command or the wisdom
01:37:36 <int-e> Maybe I should abbreviate one of them as s&w instead
01:37:59 <b_jonas> I also used to ring bobadventureslist and ehlist
01:38:50 <int-e> (The comics I had in mind are: Sandra & Woo; Slack Wyrm; Kill Six Billion Demons)
01:39:24 <oerjan> i think i've heard the name Sandra & Woo and that's as close as i get
01:39:44 <b_jonas> Sandra & Woo is another one that used to be good in the first few years
01:40:01 <b_jonas> but didn't keep its quality
01:40:12 <b_jonas> though on the plus side, it does have a mostly consistent update schedule
01:42:42 <b_jonas> I'm particularly impressed with the drawing style of early Sandra & Woo by the way
01:42:47 <oerjan> i think schlock mercenary was the last comic i really got into but that has finished
01:42:53 <b_jonas> which is, you know, unusual among webcomics I read
01:43:06 <b_jonas> wait what?
01:43:11 <b_jonas> Schlock Mercenary finished?
01:43:19 <b_jonas> wasn't that one of the ever-going never finishing comic?
01:43:53 <b_jonas> wow
01:44:45 <b_jonas> is that the longest running webcomic with a definite end?
01:45:01 <oerjan> could be?
01:45:24 <fizzie> I think it also never had any missed days?
01:46:02 <oerjan> istr reading that too
01:46:11 <fizzie> https://www.schlockmercenary.com/blog/nineteen-years/ "The comic has updated daily, every day, without fail, for nineteen years now."
01:46:22 <fizzie> And I don't think that failed during the last year either.
01:47:25 <int-e> It wrapped up pretty well too.
01:47:58 <b_jonas> most webcomics never come to a definite end, they're just abandonned. I know of some shorter webcomics that wrapped up properly, but not one that long.
01:48:11 <fizzie> https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WebcomicsLongRunners has it under the "Discontinued" section as the only thing that reached 20 years.
01:48:27 <fizzie> If Kevin & Kell ever actually ends, it'll beat it though.
01:48:57 <b_jonas> I mean Irregular Webcomic is already pretty impressive, having concluded three times in eight years
01:49:42 <b_jonas> and I think DMM is the record-keeper, having had three concluded webcomics, with five or six conclusions total
01:50:35 <oerjan> i wouldn't bet on that.
01:56:54 <b_jonas> Joe the Circle is a bit odd, in that it has seasons, sort of like TV series, and has 13 seasons concluded, but it also started as a paper comic, like Bobadventures, so some of those aren't webcomics
01:57:32 <b_jonas> but I haven't read enough of that comic to know if it had what counts as concluding the comic, as opposed to just concluding seasons or story arcs
02:02:52 <nakilon> https://jsfiddle.net/9vetsczw/ why do these columns of + and x are of the different height _<>
02:03:20 <nakilon> s/are// s/do/are/
02:04:32 <fizzie> The xs have "padding-top: 0.5rem;" and the +s don't?
02:05:10 <fizzie> Or is that just for the whole chunk of them, I guess so.
02:06:43 <nakilon> yes, the padding is intended but the relative shift should not change
02:07:34 <fizzie> Curious. Maybe you need to do something to force a line spacing.
02:08:04 <fizzie> They are rendered with different fonts for me, in case that makes a difference.
02:09:22 <fizzie> (The +s come from Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, the xs for some unfathomable reason from DejaVu Sans.)
02:09:42 <nakilon> _Oo
02:10:08 <fizzie> (They both have "font-family: monospaced" as the computed style though.)
02:10:17 <nakilon> font is only specified in body as font-family: monospace
02:10:21 <fizzie> s/ced/ce/ yeah
02:10:23 <nakilon> yes
02:11:29 <nakilon> these fancy flex, grid things were said to make the life easier than table...
02:14:10 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with that, because replacing the x with x makes it render all from the same fonts but doesn't fix the spacing.
02:14:59 <fizzie> Looking at the boxes though, it would seem that both columns have the exact same total height, just the padding causes everything else to get squeezed a little.
02:15:37 <nakilon> hmmmm
02:17:02 <fizzie> As in, for this browser both the #row_adders and #row_removers divs are 16x150 pixels, but the other one has 8 pixels of padding up top, leaving only 142 for the actual characters.
02:17:19 <fizzie> Maybe you can fix it by ensuring that there's a similar padding at the bottom of the other column.
02:17:26 <fizzie> (And the whole grid, to keep it in line.)
02:19:17 <fizzie> Well, doing that got it... a little bit better, but still not exactly right. Not going to fiddle any more with it.
02:20:44 <fizzie> (I don't know how people manage to make actually good-looking yet robust web things of that kind. Because there's definitely things that do work.)
02:23:24 <nakilon> added more paddings around, became almost ok https://jsfiddle.net/9vetsczw/1/but the "width: 1rem" does not seem to work at all
02:24:00 <nakilon> (space between "1/" and "but")
02:24:50 <nakilon> "I don't know how people manage to make" -- I feel like they just force sizes in "px"
02:25:34 <nakilon> not sure about text base aligning though, I tried to tweak that too
02:27:09 <nakilon> also there is some https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/line-height that also changes the size in some misterious way
02:30:48 <nakilon> oh, acrually the width:rem works it's just 1 height != 1 width, lol
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03:24:24 <nakilon> switching from grid to flex solved the misterious paddings
05:04:45 <esolangs> [[Binary to unary conversion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87108&oldid=77367 * Xorol * (+0) /* Phyton 3.0 */ Fixed typo
05:42:15 <esolangs> [[OEIScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87109 * TriMill * (+4251) Created page
05:50:10 <esolangs> [[OEIScript/implementation.py]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87110 * TriMill * (+5870) Created page with "An implementation of [[OEIScript]] in Python 3. [https://pypi.org/project/requests/ requests] must be installed to use this interpreter, and an internet connection is required..."
05:52:32 <esolangs> [[OEIScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87111&oldid=87109 * TriMill * (+103) Added implementation
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07:16:01 <zzo38> Now I made up a format for compact binary structured data, which is: http://sprunge.us/G7xVU8 Do you think this is good?
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08:26:53 <river> structured how?
08:27:01 <river> I see that it has long numbers
08:27:10 <river> my book was teaching about long numbers
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11:32:21 <esolangs> [[Smileyface]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87112&oldid=87102 * Martsadas * (+23)
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12:52:55 <nakilon> amazing how coding in your "native" language you can write dozens of lines with algorithms of any complexity without an error but if you take something you aren't used to you are doomed
12:53:51 <nakilon> working on this jquery thing I have to test after every new line of code added ..D
12:54:05 <nakilon> because it always has an error
12:59:31 <nakilon> for example, there is a grid with "selected" cell, and at any time some cell should be selected so I decided when I remove the col or row containing the selected cell I select the left-top one; the first struggle was that there is no "remove event propagation" in jquery when you remove the containing row so the cell does not know you remove it, so
12:59:31 <nakilon> you have to loop along the row to check each cell if it's selected; and even when I do "if this==selected select(0,0)" on each cell before removal I've got a bug that if the selected cell was in the first row or col the top-left cell selected during the loop is gone in the end; I can't believe I've got caught in it
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13:35:33 <esolangs> [[Evil]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87113&oldid=81352 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+9) /* Hello, world! */ w
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14:24:42 <nakilon> so no colorful annotations list yet https://i.imgur.com/CmNuI0a.png but it reads and writes the file
14:26:04 <nakilon> now switching away from JS to make the rasel<->rasela converter; then the runner; then the run reporter
15:30:31 <b_jonas> fungot, if I were to want to disassemble you, what type and size of screwdriver should I bring?
15:30:31 <fungot> b_jonas: i know. he demands the framework used in r5rs?
15:36:00 <b_jonas> fungot, what kind of material is wolframane, and is it metalic or non-metalic?
15:36:00 <fungot> b_jonas: one sec.
15:54:26 <fizzie> fungot: Are you just researching the topic now?
15:54:26 <fungot> fizzie: what would it be unfair to give a 15 minute scribble, but i understood). to a top level
15:55:41 <nakilon> that's actually a cool answer
15:55:56 <nakilon> if bot sees he needs a time he says "one sec" and comes with an answer later
16:25:26 <b_jonas> yeah
16:25:46 <b_jonas> we give some time on exams for students to prepare their answer
16:25:55 <b_jonas> must give them a fair chance to cheat
16:26:03 <b_jonas> if they want to, that is
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16:48:10 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87114&oldid=87034 * Dtuser1337 * (+190) added fizzbuzz
16:51:47 <nakilon> I cheated on exams once; still feeling bad about that _<>
16:55:12 <APic> *shrug*
16:59:01 <esolangs> [[FlinnScrip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87115&oldid=87114 * Dtuser1337 * (-300) i dont like <code>showerror(x);</code> commands.
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17:44:03 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87116&oldid=85987 * Dtuser1337 * (+1658) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
17:44:19 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87117&oldid=87116 * Dtuser1337 * (+0) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
17:44:29 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87118&oldid=87117 * Dtuser1337 * (+1) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
17:46:18 <esolangs> [[User:Dtuser1337/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87119&oldid=87118 * Dtuser1337 * (+66) /* Beginning of the Sandbox line */
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19:02:15 <nakilon> import is done https://i.imgur.com/q4QluzA.png
19:28:02 <river> hi
19:45:10 <nakilon> hi
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23:32:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87120&oldid=87093 * PixelatedStarfish * (+100) /* Random Number (1 - 10) */
23:33:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87121&oldid=87120 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* External Links */
23:33:49 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87122&oldid=87121 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
23:33:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87123&oldid=87122 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* External Links */
23:34:33 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87124&oldid=87123 * PixelatedStarfish * (-46)
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23:35:07 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87125&oldid=87124 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Hello World */
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02:14:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87126&oldid=87125 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Truth Machine */
02:16:03 <esolangs> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87127&oldid=86801 * PixelatedStarfish * (+34) /* GridScript */
02:19:20 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87128&oldid=87076 * PixelatedStarfish * (-71) /* Esolangs */
02:20:41 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87129&oldid=87126 * PixelatedStarfish * (+4) /* Hello World */
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03:04:25 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87130&oldid=87129 * PixelatedStarfish * (+25) /* External Links */
03:05:45 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87131&oldid=87130 * PixelatedStarfish * (+26) /* External Links */
03:06:38 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87132&oldid=87131 * PixelatedStarfish * (+18) /* External Links */
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03:17:28 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87133&oldid=86941 * PixelatedStarfish * (+295) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
03:18:06 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87134&oldid=87133 * PixelatedStarfish * (-171) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
03:18:27 <esolangs> [[Blood32]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87135&oldid=87134 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* On the Turing Completeness of Blood32 */
03:21:52 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87136&oldid=87128 * PixelatedStarfish * (+108) /* Esolangs */
03:24:50 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87137&oldid=87136 * PixelatedStarfish * (+20) /* Esolangs */
03:25:11 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87138&oldid=87137 * PixelatedStarfish * (+1) /* Something */
03:25:21 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87139&oldid=87138 * PixelatedStarfish * (-2) /* Blood32 */
03:25:31 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87140&oldid=87139 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Heck */
03:25:37 <esolangs> [[User:PixelatedStarfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87141&oldid=87140 * PixelatedStarfish * (-1) /* Something */
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11:17:28 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87142&oldid=87132 * PixelatedStarfish * (+395)
11:18:48 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87143&oldid=87142 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8)
11:31:06 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87144&oldid=87143 * PixelatedStarfish * (+142)
11:41:06 <warlock> clear
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12:35:59 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87145&oldid=87144 * PixelatedStarfish * (+827) /* Random Number (1 - 10) */
12:42:20 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87146&oldid=87145 * PixelatedStarfish * (+41) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
12:44:33 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87147&oldid=87146 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
12:45:12 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87148&oldid=87147 * PixelatedStarfish * (+40) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
12:45:45 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87149&oldid=87148 * PixelatedStarfish * (+29) /* External Links */
12:45:56 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87150&oldid=87149 * PixelatedStarfish * (+0) /* External Links */
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13:05:42 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87151&oldid=87150 * PixelatedStarfish * (+2) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
13:07:08 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87152&oldid=87151 * PixelatedStarfish * (+7) /* Proof of Turing Completeness */
13:35:59 <esolangs> [[YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87153 * Martsadas * (+2439) Created page with "<b>YPIMOOMFWAMOOMLWAMOOMNWAMOOMCWAMOOMFWAMOOMSWAMOOMTWAMOOMCWAMOOMB</b> which stands for <b>Your program is made out of many files which are made out of many libraries which a..."
13:36:32 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87154&oldid=87101 * Martsadas * (+80)
13:36:52 <esolangs> [[User:Martsadas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87155&oldid=87154 * Martsadas * (+4)
13:37:21 <fizzie> A convenient and easily remembered name.
13:39:50 <int-e> . o O ( It's inspired by the less successful Village People song called Y.P.I.M.O.O.M.F.W.A.M.O.O.M.L.W.A.M.O.O.M.N.W.A.M.O.O.M.C.W.A.M.O.O.M.F.W.A.M.O.O.M.S.W.A.M.O.O.M.T.W.A.M.O.O.M.C.W.A.M.O.O.M.B. )
13:43:55 <int-e> Is it interesting? MOOM would make a reasonable short name
13:46:58 <fizzie> TBH, from the current contents of the page, it looks like rather conventional imperative language.
13:50:25 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87156&oldid=82070 * Betseg * (+85)
13:51:10 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87157&oldid=87021 * Betseg * (+16) /* E */
13:51:53 <int-e> Very sketchy... the "| Example" placeholders (I guess that's what they are) are confusing
13:56:55 <esolangs> [[Heck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87158&oldid=87152 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* External Links */ Cat
13:57:36 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87159&oldid=87156 * Betseg * (+66)
13:58:56 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87160&oldid=87159 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+35) See also, stub
13:59:44 <esolangs> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87161&oldid=73465 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+26) /* External resources */ Emoji
13:59:55 <esolangs> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87162&oldid=87161 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+4) /* See also */ other one
14:00:18 <esolangs> [[Emojicode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87163&oldid=87160 * Betseg * (+45)
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14:58:08 <fizzie> "Optimization_final Pass 2" reminds me of those files named xxx_FINAL_v2_REAL_FIXED.zip.
15:06:38 <esolangs> [[Emoji-gramming]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87164&oldid=73429 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+44) See also
15:06:56 <esolangs> [[Emoji]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87165&oldid=87162 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+21) /* See also */ Emoji-gramming
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17:33:18 <esolangs> [[Talk:HelloWorld]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87166&oldid=82882 * Sanscicondos * (+303) Expansion?
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21:20:58 <esolangs> [[Whitespace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87167&oldid=84497 * Andrewarchi * (+38) Grammar
21:29:23 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87168&oldid=87103 * Dominicentek * (-136) Removed gotos
21:29:39 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87169&oldid=87168 * Dominicentek * (+0) Fixed number of instructions
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22:01:51 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Epicbebra]]": no useful content (only content is "Coming soon"), no history, no inbound links; feel free to recreate this once you have something to put on the page, but language pages should describe a language
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22:23:53 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87170&oldid=87014 * Tomhe * (+10) /* The Standard Library */
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23:48:30 <esolangs> [[FlipJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87171&oldid=87170 * Tomhe * (+14) /* The Standard Library */
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05:50:47 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87172&oldid=87104 * TeamLightning * (+22) /* Implementations */ changed GitHub link to point to main branch specifically
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07:46:52 <river> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5661
07:48:09 <river> > I noted that the BBB function grows uncomputably even given an oracle for the ordinary BB function. In fact, computing anything that grows as quickly as BBB is equivalent to solving any problem in the second level of the arithmetical hierarchy (where the computable functions are in the zeroth level, and the halting problem is in the first level)
07:48:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:108: error: parse error on input ‘,’
07:53:05 <river> the beeping busy beaver is very interesting
07:53:23 <river> how could 2nd level of the arithmetic hierarchy have influence on a function that gives finite numbers...
07:55:11 <Taneb> Why shouldn't it?
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09:36:08 <int-e> first level: phi(n) = exists k. psi(n, k), where psi is a sigma-0 sentence. second level: phi(n) = forall k. exists l. psi(n, k, l), again with a sigma-0 formula for psi... the latter is strictly more expressive...
09:37:29 <int-e> (The former is \Sigma_0^1; k can be viewed as a number of steps; the latter is \Pi_0^2, k can be viewed as the number of beeps, and l as the number of steps needed to reach the next beep.)
09:38:52 <int-e> (This is simplified though; in reality the variables need to encode whole TM runs with intermediate states.)
09:40:34 <int-e> hmmm
09:41:14 <int-e> that's just the corresponding halting problem
09:48:38 <int-e> The function version of these are phi(n,v) = exists k. psi(n, v, k) encoding f(n) = v; k is the encoding of a run of the TM (so potentially much larger than v) that produces v as an output, and phi(n, v) = forall k. exists l. psi(n, v, k, l), where for example, k is a partial run of the TM, and l extends it to the point where the TM beeps again.
09:49:46 <int-e> s/, and/. For the second level,/
10:06:37 <river> so it's kinda like halting but you count how many times it halts?
10:06:50 <river> but generalized so its not 'halting' but some arbitrary state
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13:34:01 <esolangs> [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87173&oldid=70359 * Lyxal * (+64) /* A Question */ new section
13:34:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87174&oldid=87173 * Lyxal * (+108)
13:35:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:A]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87175&oldid=87174 * Lyxal * (+8)
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18:07:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Corbin * New user account
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18:16:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87176&oldid=87088 * Corbin * (+171) Introduce myself. It took a lot of effort to not use some variation of the Yoshikage Kira copypasta.
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19:40:57 <esolangs> [[NoCode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87177 * Dominicentek * (+2149) Created page with "NoCode is an esoteric programming language written by [[User:Dominicentek]]. It doesn't have any source code. == How it works == This programming language has no syntax. It de..."
19:41:45 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87178&oldid=87080 * Dominicentek * (+24)
19:50:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dominicentek]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87179&oldid=87178 * Dominicentek * (+4)
19:51:36 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87180&oldid=87157 * Dominicentek * (+12) /* N */
19:52:09 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87181&oldid=87180 * Dominicentek * (+0) /* N */
19:53:04 <esolangs> [[NoCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87182&oldid=87177 * Dominicentek * (-13)
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23:47:39 <esolangs> [[NoCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87183&oldid=87182 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+117) /* Interpreter */ sum(map(lambda x: Cat, "Cats"))
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00:02:41 <sidelined> Do you filter colors?
00:02:42 <sidelined> ██
00:02:42 <sidelined>
00:02:42 <sidelined>
00:02:42 <sidelined>
00:02:44 <sidelined> ██ ██
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00:12:54 <keegan> lol
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00:13:25 <fizzie> That looks just fine in this terminal, but my browser's real bad at making monospace text actually monospaced. https://zem.fi/tmp/ugh.png
00:13:44 <nakilon> my font isn't monospace
00:13:52 <nakilon> I wonder why he did that
00:14:05 <fizzie> It's pretty clever.
00:14:25 <fizzie> (It says YES if you do filter out the colors, NO if you don't.)
00:14:48 <nakilon> it said YO to me
00:15:21 <nakilon> https://i.imgur.com/xGRi0OP.png
00:16:04 <keegan> oh very clever
00:16:05 <nakilon> or VJ
00:16:32 <fizzie> You get the YES out of the browsable logs by highlighting the text: https://zem.fi/tmp/ugh2.png
00:16:46 <fizzie> (With a slight shadow of the NO still visible.)
00:16:58 <nakilon> woah
00:17:44 <fizzie> Of course all that doesn't really explain *why* come here to do that... experiment. But I guess why not.
00:18:59 <nakilon> fungot do you filter colors?
00:18:59 <fungot> nakilon: pyrotechno ok. now i'm hungry. :( only one? good for him. ( and there are pi seconds in a fnord
00:19:20 <fizzie> ^rainbow NOT TOO LIKELY
00:19:20 <fungot> NOT TOO LIKELY
00:20:32 <nakilon> ^rainbow XXXXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X
00:20:32 <fungot> XXXXXXXXX X X X X X X X X X
00:21:14 <nakilon> ^rainbow X X X X X
00:21:14 <fungot> X X X X X
00:23:25 <fizzie> There was also another one, but it seems to have become broken for me, I think probably because it now truncates in the middle of a UTF-8 sequence.
00:23:27 <fizzie> ^rainbow2
00:23:27 <fungot> ...too much output!
00:23:28 <int-e> wow, firefox is weird... it shows "YES" if I select the text, but switched to a grey "NO" when it loses focus...
00:23:44 <nakilon> guys, how do you pretty print json in command line?
00:24:01 <fizzie> `... | jq .` is what I always do.
00:24:04 <HackEso> ​...? No such file or directory
00:24:10 <fizzie> HackEso: That wasn't to you.
00:24:18 <nakilon> the json_pp from wherever it is on my machine is some perl script that is too slow and if I stop it prematurely it fucks up my session
00:25:06 <fizzie> https://0x0.st/-JgT.txt
00:26:38 <fizzie> I use jq so infrequently, I always need to look up how its pipelines and filters and general syntax works if I need to actually *do* anything with it, but I can (barely) manage to remember the `.` filter for just pretty-printing as a side effect.
00:28:21 <nakilon> yeah I wondered about that .
00:33:11 <Corbin> fizzie: Getting good at jq might not be worth it. It's a sort of tacit-ish concatenative-ish language, and it's nice for quick one-liners, but it allows modules and it gets unreadable quickly.
00:33:23 <Corbin> https://github.com/MostAwesomeDude/klesi/blob/master/cat.jq is about as good as I got with it.
00:33:59 <nakilon> nice, it's millions times faster than json_pp
00:54:33 <zzo38> On my computer the IRC colours are not even interpreted, so it does not say YES or NO
00:59:26 <nakilon> what does it say?
01:07:27 <int-e> zzo38: it uses the █ block drawing character for the YES version
01:07:39 <fizzie> Right, but I guess it would be hard to make out anything if the color codes are left visible.
01:08:06 <int-e> "not even interpreted"... oh
01:08:32 <int-e> yeah that'll look awful
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02:23:23 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87184&oldid=87085 * KakkoiiChris * (+224) /* Arrays */ Added Args dynamic literal
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03:07:04 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87185&oldid=87181 * PixelatedStarfish * (+10) /* H */
03:09:00 <esolangs> [[Heck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87186&oldid=87158 * PixelatedStarfish * (-8) /* Program Examples */
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04:17:35 <nakilon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33r6NXbelJk
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08:38:05 <int-e> `' fence
08:38:07 <HackEso> 530) <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, any organisation called the Scottish Defence League should be beating up English people, what other point would there be?
08:57:51 <river> ^help
08:57:51 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
09:05:12 <esolangs> [[Functionality]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87187&oldid=87169 * Dominicentek * (+74) Changed operators
09:10:45 <fizzie> Never really thought about the inconsistency that "defence" (de-fence) involves *removing* fences rather than adding them.
09:34:12 <Taneb> fizzie: sometimes what a prefix denotes can be counterintuitive
09:45:07 <fizzie> Demonstrably.
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10:04:49 <nakilon> is dewall something bigger then defence?
10:05:08 <nakilon> *than
10:05:59 <fizzie> Just another brick in dewall, as they say.
10:07:08 <nakilon> 30 minutes ago I realised I'm dreaming
10:07:14 <nakilon> rare thing
10:07:37 <wib_jonas> nakilon: no, that's called raise a wall when you build one, or raze a wall when you destroy it, and the two are pronounced exactly the same
10:08:21 <nakilon> usually for different reasons I don't use that, and didn't use it now; because I was in a street, there was a crowd a run partying, there was a cool techno music playing
10:09:23 <nakilon> so I decided to wake up to sing and record that cool musical motive; not sure though how to use it -- there is no working service to find a music from a singing
10:09:57 <nakilon> android can finds music from just 1-2 sec of listening but it needs a real track
10:10:04 <nakilon> *can find
10:10:28 <nakilon> btw I hate that people use smartphones ~100-1000 times more than I do and don't even know android can do that
10:11:05 <fizzie> There's that hum-to-search thing, but I've not managed to get it to actually work.
10:11:09 <fizzie> https://blog.google/products/search/hum-to-search/
10:11:48 <nakilon> s/a run/around
10:11:50 <nakilon> _Oo
10:13:53 <nakilon> fizzie hmmm from the gif it looks like they added it into the music search widget
10:14:41 <nakilon> now I understand why widget has changed the icon -- it's a part of "Google" application
10:14:47 <nakilon> and I recently updated it
10:16:55 <fizzie> Song detection (whether via the Google thing, Shazham or SoundHound) is definitely more robust when you've got a clip of an actual recording, even if it's pretty faint or garbled. The humming blog post claims "you don’t need perfect pitch to use this feature", but I feel like there's still some sort of a threshold, like you need to at least get the direction of most pitch changes right or
10:16:57 <fizzie> something. And I'm bad at making sounds with my mouth.
10:17:16 <nakilon> heh, it recognized the "Popcorn" track I just singed
10:17:42 <nakilon> and USSR anthem
10:17:46 <nakilon> damn, the thing works
10:18:13 <nakilon> even in faster tempo
10:19:38 <nakilon> :Unable to find a match" for my dream motive (
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10:22:19 <nakilon> I need to upload my recording everywhere with some viral text to make people write tracks then
10:32:05 <nakilon> I looked in a window and saw sky being so weird -- the blue part was white and the clouds were blue, like a negative; I said "dude, take a photo, quick!" and dude started making photos with his ball pen; I though his pen probably has crappy camera, but when I've found my camera it was too late, the sky phenomenon was over, then I went outside,
10:32:05 <nakilon> where the music was playing and people were walking, and one guy on a bicycle flew over our heads at the height of maybe 15 meters; I though "okay, but... he should land within at least 50 meters... hm, he does not land, he went even higher, this is weird, how he does that?..." -- and then I realised...; I hate taking cool photos in dreams -- there
10:32:05 <nakilon> is a huge photo album of beautiful sky there already, and I won't be surprised they are indeed saved in my memory, sometimes dreams have very old references
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13:48:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VitalMixofNutrients * New user account
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14:48:37 <esolangs> [[Ephemeral]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87188&oldid=68210 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Syntax */ Ununoverflow
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14:53:01 <esolangs> [[User]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87189&oldid=68007 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+33) Stub
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14:58:38 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87190&oldid=86993 * RocketRace * (+266) Define
15:09:29 <esolangs> [[Portsy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87191&oldid=87190 * RocketRace * (-2) aaa
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16:21:48 <Melvar> <fizzie> Never really thought about the inconsistency that "defence" (de-fence) involves *removing* fences rather than adding them. – It looks like it’s actually that “fence” is just a clipping of “defence”.
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16:53:34 <hanif> recently learnt of this https://www.3blue1brown.com/blog/some1 , perhaps a first foray into making math videos
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17:12:32 <nakilon> btw
17:12:59 <nakilon> защита -- defense, щит -- shield
17:13:50 <nakilon> it's kind of similar in Russian but it's about shield, not fence; and "за" does not mean "un", this particle does not have a particular sense
17:13:56 <nakilon> *meaning
17:14:52 <nakilon> particle without a particular meaning -- such a tautology, lol
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17:38:40 <b_jonas> the debian 11 release is coming up soon
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18:12:28 <esolangs> [[User:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87192&oldid=86506 * Sanscicondos * (+65) Added Neuron
18:13:54 <esolangs> [[User:Sanscicondos]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87193&oldid=87192 * Sanscicondos * (+1) language teases, not project teases
18:14:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:Sanscicondos]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87194&oldid=83069 * Sanscicondos * (-89) Removed Featured Language Prototype
18:24:18 <fizzie> I updated my miscellaneous-personal-use VPS (that I normally keep on stable) to bullseye already, because... uh, I forget, but it had a newer version of some software that I wanted on it.
18:32:45 <nakilon> I moved all the stuff to docker on both servers
18:34:32 <nakilon> occasionally host OS would need some updates probably, but instead of updating it directly I will probably just start another instance and move docker containers there one by one
18:35:22 <nakilon> (of course it should be possible to move them all together, I'll just use the event to review/clean any possible mess)
18:36:22 <nakilon> security updates are said to be installed automatically in cloud -- I never checked it but I believe them
18:39:06 <nakilon> "I will probably just start another instance" -- maybe you did the same, can't tell from your message
18:40:36 <nakilon> in fact I've never updated any linux installation ..D
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19:12:34 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87195&oldid=87184 * KakkoiiChris * (+761) /* Gosub (_+) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:12:59 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87196&oldid=87195 * KakkoiiChris * (-3) /* Gosub (_+) */ Fixed typo
19:15:20 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87197&oldid=87196 * KakkoiiChris * (-142) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Fixed return statement in first version
19:18:06 <esolangs> [[Category:Stupid family]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87198&oldid=81531 * WallGraffiti * (-1) that spelling mistake was nagging me
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19:32:15 <fizzie> Nah, I did a "traditional" upgrade.
19:35:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87199&oldid=87197 * KakkoiiChris * (+81) /* Gosub (_+) */ Changed example
19:37:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87200&oldid=87199 * KakkoiiChris * (+302) /* Return (_-) */ Added syntax highlighting
19:39:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87201&oldid=87200 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* Operators */ Fixed level 13 precedence
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20:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:TeamLightning]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87202&oldid=87042 * TeamLightning * (+27) Updating this to be less terrible and more descriptive
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20:22:47 <esolangs> [[OLNMLN]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87203&oldid=84329 * Grs * (-7000) Code removed,github link
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21:02:09 <river> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMgCBYgVwsI what did he mean by this
21:42:06 <esolangs> [[PL2 vCPU]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87204&oldid=87172 * TeamLightning * (-3) /* Overview */ changed extensible to modular to match GitHub description
21:47:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87205&oldid=87201 * KakkoiiChris * (+233) /* Unary Operators */ Casts can affect arrays too
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23:01:27 <int-e> ...whose bright idea was to stick to 32 bit ints on 64 bit platforms...
23:07:21 <fizzie> I suspect there are several people to blame for that.
23:10:03 <int-e> (I did x & (1 << n) stuff without the proper cast; I should stick to (x >> n) & 1 instead)
23:11:12 <int-e> fizzie: I imagine that it reduced the amount of broken code when the world transitioned from 32 to 64 bit architectures, but by now it's more of a technical debt to my mind
23:15:50 <fizzie> Go's model is to have the set of integer types be int8, int16, int32 and int64, and then make the `int` type an alias for int32 or int64 depending on the target architecture, but make everything (slice lengths, indices, whatever) consistently use the `int` type. Maybe that's a reasonable one.
23:16:41 <fizzie> As for C, wouldn't it be nice if a `long short` was a 24-bit type, and a `short long` was a 48-bit one?
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23:22:11 <int-e> it would be cute... reducing the power of two...
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00:05:23 <oerjan> @metar ENVA
00:05:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 132350Z 26013KT 9999 -RA BKN010 15/14 Q1005 RMK WIND 670FT 28014KT
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00:57:51 <fizzie> Speaking of things, does anyone happen to remember a game where you tried to catch falling shapes (I think mostly polyhedra), and when you caught one a voice would speak out one of those Exxx food additive codes, and the name would show up on the screen, and you got points?
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01:34:36 <Corbin> Is there an index of languages by natural/obvious intermediate data structures? I'm thinking not just about ZISC, but about the underlying endomorphism of a ZISC setup.
01:36:57 <Corbin> Like, Brainfuck's data structure is a list of nats and an index/zipper into that list, and instead of one endomorphism there's six endomorphisms plus a functor which builds loops.
01:40:35 <int-e> fizzie: The most recent experience where I had to catch a falling polyhedron was when I replayed Portal :P
01:43:34 <zzo38> Usually brainfuck uses a list of bytes (or, a tape of bytes), although some implementations can use other cell sizes too
01:47:03 <nakilon> speaking about ints and cell sizes
01:47:47 <nakilon> imagine memory model where every second byte consists of another number of bits
01:48:00 <nakilon> don't ask why
01:49:12 <fizzie> int-e: This was a 2D game (except the polyhedra were sprites that were animated to rotate). Also some of them (maybe the platonic solids? maybe not) were "bad" and you needed to avoid them, and that was the main gameplay challenge.
01:49:44 <nakilon> another idea
01:50:03 <int-e> fizzie: I got that (well, not the 2D part...) and it didn't ring a bell at all.
01:50:17 <int-e> Neither does the Ennn thing for that matter.
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01:50:38 <nakilon> you know when you are making notes on a paper and if you write the same digit 100 times it gets copied on the other side of a page, and on the next page
01:50:51 <nakilon> and if you write it even more you can make a hole in paper
01:51:31 <nakilon> so you should not write the same data to the same address or it will make holes
01:52:04 <fizzie> int-e: I feel like maybe the voice was speaking Finnish when it said the codes out loud, which would probably mean this was maybe a game with a pretty limited audience.
01:53:17 <nakilon> does the word "finish" have the same etymology with Finnish?
01:53:48 <Corbin> zzo38: Sure. The exact type used for cells doesn't matter much to me, and in fact I think it's nifty to imagine that many different flavors of Brainfuck are merely parameterized that way.
01:55:17 <fizzie> Ha! https://pouet.net/prod.php?which=3393
01:55:38 <fizzie> The bad ones are the outline ones, the filled ones are good.
01:57:39 <nakilon> ok, two online etymology dictionaries say there is nothing common
01:57:42 <fizzie> (And I think finish/Finnish are unrelated, but don't really know. Lots of bad jokes about their similarity though.)
02:00:01 <nakilon> I know none
02:01:25 <int-e> First you'll have to cross the finnishing line.
02:02:45 <fizzie> Why is it impossible to hold a race in Finland? Because in Finland, every line is a Finnish line.
02:03:10 <int-e> fizzie: Seriously though, the number of such jokes probably increases the closer you get to Finland.
02:03:47 <int-e> Because then you'll have tons of teenagers learning English who find these things irresistably funny.
02:03:50 <fizzie> "I've been working on a Scandinavian joke. It would be Swede if I could Finnish it, but right now there's just Norway."
02:04:37 <int-e> That one is pretty good and I'm pretty sure I've never heard it.
02:05:14 <fizzie> Yeah, I hadn't heard that one either. I think the wob page I landed on had a few novel ones.
02:05:19 <fizzie> "Why will you never win a race against a runner from Finland? Because before you even start, they are already Finnish."
02:05:31 <fizzie> A lot of them are about the "Finnish line".
02:06:17 <fizzie> There's also a few that play on "Russian to Finnish" ~ "rushing to finish".
02:07:18 <nakilon> lol
02:07:33 <fizzie> I feel like there's some others with a different structure, but can't recall any now.
02:07:42 <nakilon> there is no joke about Ukraine
02:07:52 <nakilon> because its name is kind of a joke already
02:08:13 <fizzie> In English, maybe something about cranes.
02:09:06 <nakilon> the word Ukraine came from "okraina" that means "outskirts (of Russia)"
02:12:28 <keegan> i thought about (or maybe read here about, and forgot) a version of brainfuck generalized to arbitrary algebraic data types for the cell
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05:05:56 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87206&oldid=87205 * KakkoiiChris * (+89) /* Fixed Range Access */ Reworded explaination and comments
05:07:13 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87207&oldid=87206 * KakkoiiChris * (+1) /* Statements */ Fixed formatting
05:11:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87208&oldid=87207 * KakkoiiChris * (+95) /* String Output */ Fixed formatting
05:11:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87209&oldid=87208 * KakkoiiChris * (+19) /* If Statement */ Fixed formatting
05:12:05 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87210&oldid=87209 * KakkoiiChris * (+19) /* Do While Loop */ Fixed formatting
05:13:13 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87211&oldid=87210 * KakkoiiChris * (+38) /* For Loop */ Fixed formatting
05:14:23 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87212&oldid=87211 * KakkoiiChris * (+58) /* String Input */ Fixed formatting
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05:15:42 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87213&oldid=87212 * KakkoiiChris * (+0) /* If Statement */ Fixed code
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05:24:09 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87214&oldid=87213 * KakkoiiChris * (+1926) /* Design Patterns */ Added while loop
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06:35:14 <zzo38> Other variants of the limits of values of cells in brainfuck is also possible, other than being the same for each cell, they can be different in different cells, dynamic based on other cells, etc. There maight also be possibilities other than simply a number.
06:36:15 <esolangs> [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87215&oldid=87214 * KakkoiiChris * (+939) /* Operators */ Added string cast operator
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15:25:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:List of quines]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87216 * TheJonyMyster * (+297) Created page with "==Your== Should the example for [[Your]] be on here, especially in the "real quines" section? Not only is it a joke language, but on it's page, Your Your Your Your is a truth..."
15:39:34 <nakilon> wikipedia calls (...|...) in regex a "Boolean 'or'"
15:39:45 <nakilon> are there alternative names for this?
15:40:31 <nakilon> I would call it a "'choice' operator" to describe the similar thing in my own syntax but I decided to check how it's called elsewhere
15:42:20 <nakilon> hm, looks like it's also "or" in BNF
15:42:38 <esolangs> [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87217&oldid=86113 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-49) [[#Your|Your]]) (Remove non-quine)
15:44:07 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87218&oldid=86980 * TheJonyMyster * (+0)
15:44:46 <esolangs> [[Headass]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87219&oldid=87218 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) Undo revision 87218 by [[Special:Contributions/TheJonyMyster|TheJonyMyster]] ([[User talk:TheJonyMyster|talk]])
15:45:42 <esolangs> [[Headass]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87220&oldid=87219 * TheJonyMyster * (+0) updated interpreter link
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16:01:13 <Melvar> I would probably also pronounce it “or”, or possibly “alt”, but the n-ary version I would call “choice”.
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17:17:28 <river> alternative
17:17:39 <river> choice
17:26:38 <nakilon> I ended up with this somehow: The "or-group" [ ] tries to match the object with any of a given list of schemas.
18:02:35 <fizzie> I call it the "alternative".
18:03:10 <fizzie> Or "alternation", maybe.
18:03:34 <fizzie> That's what Wikipedia uses under the "formal definition" part: concatenation, alternation and Kleene star.
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18:57:41 <b_jonas> "...whose bright idea was to stick to 32 bit ints on 64 bit platforms..." => you must mean x86_64, which does that
18:58:06 <fizzie> I mean, it's not alone in that.
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18:58:31 <fizzie> Itanium's int was 32 bits too; checked because I had a feeling it might not have been.
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19:00:05 <fizzie> And AArch64, which I guess is probably the second most common "64-bit" platform.
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19:00:58 <b_jonas> "Lots of bad jokes about their similarity though." => ah, like Ostrich-Hungry
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19:03:02 <b_jonas> (Finnish and finish)
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20:19:43 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87221 * CosmicMan08 * (+3428) Created page with "9f87m4atttaaaou; (pronounced Mashed Potatolang) is a Stack-Based esolang by CosmicMan08#1975 ([[User:CosmicMan08]]). It was designed to make it look like any program made in i..."
20:20:15 <esolangs> [[Potatolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87222 * CosmicMan08 * (+30) Redirected page to [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]
20:20:26 <esolangs> [[Mashed Potatolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87223 * CosmicMan08 * (+30) Redirected page to [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]]
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21:32:37 <fizzie> Debian bullseye is out now, by the way.
21:35:29 <int-e> good to know
21:47:26 <nakilon> sounds like a new iphone
21:47:33 <int-e> Hmm, how do these things work, when do they bump the version of sid (=unstable)?
21:48:03 <nakilon> btw heard that Apple invented another way to force people buying new iPhone even if previous one still works
21:48:27 <nakilon> they are now unlocking older devices for police needs
21:50:25 <river> only older devices though?
21:50:26 <river> lol
21:51:19 <int-e> Uh, if you buy a new iPhone because Apple's unlocking old iPhones then you didn't get the message AT ALL.
21:53:00 <nakilon> I don't buy iphones at all
21:59:09 <fizzie> int-e: AIUI, sid and the current testing (now bookworm) does not officially have a version number. As in, the InRelease file that describes the archive doesn't have a "Version:" tag at all, and its decription just calls it "Debian x.y". I imagine they've had to put a number in some places though as a placeholder, and I don't know when those change.
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22:01:31 <int-e> fizzie: Fair enough. I'm looking at /etc/issue for this :)
22:02:11 <int-e> Anyway, I'll wait a week or two before upgrading, as usual.
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22:03:13 <fizzie> I'll be waiting a while too, but not because I want to be sensible and measured and all that; it's purely out of laziness.
22:19:41 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87224 * FLeckami21 * (+3444) Created page with "{{ WIP }} Sokolang is a programming language created by [[User:FLeckami21|FLeckami]] that use Sokoban gameplay to execute commands. ==File structure== Here is an exemple file..."
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22:23:35 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87225&oldid=87224 * FLeckami21 * (+129) adding a small thing
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22:40:21 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87226&oldid=87221 * CosmicMan08 * (+48)
22:48:31 <nakilon> didn't see arseniv for a while
22:53:44 <nakilon> from my esolang wiki categories page I've found three languages with [Work-in-progress] langs are probably not in progress for a while in fact
22:53:51 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Andrew%27s_Programming_Language
22:53:55 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Preposterous_Programming_Language
22:54:01 <nakilon> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bytemap
23:04:52 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87227&oldid=87226 * CosmicMan08 * (+0)
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00:32:25 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87228&oldid=87227 * CosmicMan08 * (+86)
01:15:17 <nakilon> I just realised xxd and hexdump might be able to convert any file into a valid Netpbm image
01:16:28 <nakilon> only needs the "P1 #{rows} #{cols} " header string attached
01:16:33 <nakilon> prepended
01:19:02 <nakilon> I wonder if there is any utility to make all lines in files N chars long appending the spaces so the source file would me aligned for export
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01:26:42 <nakilon> nvm snippet from here works
01:26:43 <nakilon> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/programming-9/shell-question-pad-end-of-each-line-with-spaces-to-%3D-80-chars-875082/#post4326916
01:29:48 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GermanSpetsnaz * New user account
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01:36:37 <oerjan> . o O ( that _almost_ sounds like it should be a bannable name )
01:46:51 <Corbin> Do we have guidelines for how to cite things? I vaguely remember how it was done on WP, if that's how it's done.
01:48:48 <oerjan> we don't do much citing, but we (or at least ais523) do have sort of a meta-rule to default to wikipedia behavior when there's no reason to do differently
01:49:28 <Corbin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources then?
01:49:28 <oerjan> we don't have citation templates. that i know of.
01:51:37 <oerjan> ok in that case there _is_ a reason: "that's way overcomplicated"
01:52:33 <Corbin> Ha, fair.
01:54:56 <fizzie> oerjan: Hmm, someone has tried and failed for an hour or so yesterday to introduce themselves, I think because they kept ignoring the "do not include any external links" rule.
01:55:12 <oerjan> that happens
01:55:34 <fizzie> It's already red and in bold type. :/
01:57:00 <Corbin> Aw, is it "VitalMixofNutrients"? I was hoping that that was a hilarious real-person nick and not a spammer.
01:57:39 <fizzie> The message they were trying to add to the introductions page sounds pretty legitimate.
01:58:13 <fizzie> It just has links to their gitlab.com page, and a non-wiki link to BitBitJump.
01:58:38 <Corbin> Mm. Hopefully they'll figure it out.
02:01:58 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87229&oldid=87228 * CosmicMan08 * (+57)
02:03:38 <fizzie> There's also a pretty long actual attempted new article/language called "Tense" a while back that got blocked by the introduction requirement. Sad.
02:06:26 <Corbin> Is there a way to manually intervene and rescue those, once the introductions are done? I guess folks probably don't follow up if they fail.
02:07:20 * Corbin should save their new-page buffer before submitting
02:07:40 <fizzie> They're saved in the filter log. Which is public, so anyone can dig it up from there. I just don't know what the ethics of doing so are.
02:08:48 <fizzie> Technically the content is "on" the site already. And they did click submit on it, so there was intent to add it.
02:09:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87230&oldid=87176 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+222) /* Introductions */
02:10:23 <fizzie> Apparently the [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] page is also right on the critical 200k size boundary for the no-large-edits rule and therefore uneditable. Not sure what should be done with that one, it's a little unwieldy.
02:10:57 <oerjan> has anyone got caught by that?
02:11:41 <fizzie> PixelatedStarfish attempted (but failed) to add a Heck hello world a while back.
02:12:27 <b_jonas> yay, Debian!
02:12:56 <fizzie> And the page edit history has a "I'm trying to add Godencode, but it hasn't been letting me. Making it a 2-step process might work?" note, but it ended up with them just adding "Too long to fit here, find on Godencode's page" on the page.
02:13:02 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87231 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0) Created blank page
02:13:53 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the sid version was dumped a while ago, when they closed Debian 11 for new stuff (as opposed to fixing the existing stuff so they can release it) to start Debian 12
02:14:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87232&oldid=87185 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+15) /* Non-alphabetic */
02:14:48 <b_jonas> int-e: I usually look at /etc/debian_version for the version number
02:14:51 <b_jonas> it says 10.10
02:15:13 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87233&oldid=87232 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0) /* Non-alphabetic */
02:15:40 <esolangs> [[XTW]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87234&oldid=71032 * Zseri * (+7) reference implementation got taken down, won't be available because it relies on outdated libs, too
02:18:27 <fizzie> 11.0 is what my sid system's /etc/debian_version says. That, and /etc/issue, are both from the `base-files` package, which is at version 11.1.
02:18:48 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87235&oldid=87231 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+139)
02:20:02 <b_jonas> "It's already red and in bold type." => <blink><marquee><font size="+5">
02:21:11 <fizzie> https://tracker.debian.org/media/packages/b/base-files/changelog-11.1
02:21:40 <fizzie> (But the version of that in sid is exactly the same as in buster.)
02:21:48 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87236&oldid=87235 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+304)
02:23:59 <b_jonas> as for [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]], maybe we should just split it to five smaller pages, split alphabetically by the name of the language
02:24:33 <nakilon> $ echo "P2 80 500 255" >temp.pgm ; curl -s https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fis/fungot/master/fungot.b98 | ruby -ne'print"%-80s"%$_.chomp' | od -An -vtu1 >>temp.pgm
02:24:33 <fungot> nakilon: so am i. luckily i knew the guy who did fnord?
02:24:35 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87237 * Corbin * (+2816) Get started.
02:24:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm ok
02:24:50 <nakilon> results in such image: https://i.imgur.com/GbfFnEq.png
02:25:29 <nakilon> the only problem with this snippet is I hardcode the height 500px by knowing the length of that file ahead
02:25:41 <b_jonas> (about the sid version)
02:26:02 <nakilon> could add it somewhere in ruby command but it would increase the command length
02:26:20 <fizzie> Heh. That looks a lot like one of those mini-maps IDEs and editors occasionally have.
02:26:51 <fizzie> I can make out the punctuation triangle.
02:27:24 <fizzie> I still don't understand why I thought it must be triangle-shaped (it could just as well be comb-shaped and a lot more compact) but I don't want to change it at this point, it's too iconic™.
02:27:30 <b_jonas> let me read the announcement https://www.debian.org/News/2021/20210814
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02:29:41 <nakilon> heh, but you won't be able to recover the code from the minimap but yeah, looks very similar
02:29:47 <b_jonas> well, I'll install Debian 11 "soon"
02:29:53 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87238&oldid=87236 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+352)
02:30:16 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87239&oldid=87238 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+3)
02:30:24 <nakilon> "punctuation triangle" -- oh no, you've ruined the secret of that triangle purpose
02:31:12 <fizzie> It's got a comment right next to it. ;)
02:31:21 <fizzie> (The "0SE":,)'..!f"('?/s" line is a comment.)
02:31:41 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87240&oldid=87239 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+20)
02:32:49 <nakilon> very comprehensive comment
02:33:25 <nakilon> I suppose if I reverse the bits in bytes then such format would even survive the jpeg artifacts
02:33:30 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87241&oldid=87240 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+403)
02:33:43 <nakilon> I mean it would recoverable
02:34:29 <b_jonas> no big surprises in that release announcement
02:34:30 <nakilon> so it would be a lossy image format for code
02:34:56 <b_jonas> fizzie: you can provide two different shapes for essentially the same code, and let the user choose. I did that once, in
02:35:05 <nakilon> but of course not if that's befunge
02:35:21 <nakilon> some java and c# will survive
02:35:37 <b_jonas> in https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
02:38:02 <nakilon> I'm tempted to make the full circle script that would compress arbitrary text as JPEG and then decode back
02:41:07 <nakilon> oh and you can fit 3 times mode code on image space using RGB
02:41:08 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87242&oldid=87241 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+591)
02:41:32 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87243&oldid=87242 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+11) /* \ELLOWOS */
02:43:41 <nakilon> you could fold each 3 lines of source code into one image line
02:44:54 <esolangs> [[User:GermanSpetsnaz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87244 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+183) Created page with "GermanSpetsnaz, also known as Christopher Strickland, is the creator of [[\ELLOWOS]] and started editing on esolangs on 14/8/2021, which also is the day that [[\ELLOWOS]] was..."
02:45:42 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87245&oldid=87243 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+26)
02:45:46 <nakilon> and to avoid the phase choice randomness you can do not just slicing but transforming the N chars long line into 3 N/3 chars long lines
02:46:33 <nakilon> so the image will become 3 times narrower and every consecutive 3 lines of code will blend
02:47:17 <nakilon> the first line of resulting image will be red, the last one blue
02:48:09 <nakilon> damn
02:48:18 <nakilon> how to stop starting making things
02:48:31 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87246&oldid=87237 * Corbin * (+1738) Accidentally saved changes too soon. Still getting started.
02:49:01 <nakilon> I have yet to finish previous ones...
02:52:05 <nakilon> I just wanted a small break during the making of RASEL IDE so I launched a game and just hours after I started decided to draw a "crafting recipes graph", so to parse the game files I had to figure out the format so I made the schema-validation library...
02:53:15 <nakilon> ... and the damn random idea of direct converting of the source code to NETPBM now wants me to research how much JPEG or WebP compression I can achieve keeping the text readable
03:02:54 <nakilon> btw, could not really make the bash snippet of "expanding line length to 80" fully work -- it was eating the slashes in $line
03:03:22 <nakilon> also I won't wonder if that befunge code passed through bash can format the drive
03:03:34 <nakilon> *won't be surprised
03:03:38 <nakilon> gotta go sleep
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03:21:15 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87247&oldid=87230 * VitalMixofNutrients * (+439) /* Introductions */
03:22:07 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87248&oldid=87247 * VitalMixofNutrients * (-13) /* Introductions */
03:22:40 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87249&oldid=87248 * VitalMixofNutrients * (+0) /* Introductions */
03:33:02 <Corbin> Ah, excellent.
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04:37:14 <esolangs> [[Jelly]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87250&oldid=75879 * Corbin * (+227) Add proglang infobox.
04:41:03 <Corbin> Is there a definition for https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Functional_paradigm? (I am okay with the traditional answer: "No, and asking is flamebait.")
04:51:10 <int-e> . o O ( It's the opposite of dysfunctional. )
04:54:43 <int-e> I guess it's the usual thing where the page authors decide whether a language is functional and it'll only be corrected if somebody else feels it's grossly miscategorized. Personally, I'd expect something that behaves like a function as a first-class citizen (value)... with stupid corner cases (first-order term rewriting is not functional; lambda calculus is functional; combinatory logic is a...
04:54:49 <int-e> ...first-order TRS which has the whole power of the lambda calculus, ugh.)
04:56:08 <int-e> I have an opinion on CL, which is that it really doesn't feel like a functional programming language.
04:56:31 <int-e> Mainly because it's pointless.
04:56:36 <Corbin> Sure. "lambda calculus is functional" might be the horn I have to tackle this time around. Lambda calculi are the internal logics of Cartesian closed categories. Are the arrows of categories always functions? No, but how dishonest is it to pretend?
04:57:07 <int-e> Nonono, it's all about Scott domains.
04:57:51 <Corbin> They're usually either functions with extra properties/structure/stuff, or they're functors/transfors/etc. which have extra dimensions which we're truncating away.
04:58:28 <int-e> Anyway, unpacking what you said, I'd say it's okay to pretend.
04:58:42 <int-e> Otherwise you'll reach the point where nothing is functional.
04:59:01 <int-e> Since it's just bits in a computer, 99% of the time.
04:59:37 <Corbin> I mean, I *do* take that position seriously in #proglangdesign and elsewhere: "functional programming" is a tribal identifier, not a classification scheme for languages.
05:00:01 <Corbin> But I'm interested in specifically what "the functional paradigm" means on the wiki, because I want to know whether my tacit language is functional.
05:00:24 <int-e> Meh. I tend to take the view that in practice these things aren't black or white.
05:00:51 <int-e> Almsot every programming language has lambda these days so they're all a bit functional. It usually isn't the main programming paradigm.
05:03:12 <Corbin> What *is* a programming paradigm, anyway? WP says that it *is* about classifying languages, but I don't know.
05:05:21 <int-e> It's mostly about how you break a program down into more manageable bits, isn't it?
05:09:32 <Corbin> I don't know; I'm pleading ignorance. It looks like there's no category on the wiki for tacit programming languages, anyway, so it doesn't matter.
05:10:02 <int-e> You shoehorn your program into an OO language by trying to find ways to exploit classes and inheritance; you do it for FP by finding opportunities for composing or lifting functions... and you'll invent ways to do each of these in any paradigm because it's often dictated by the problem rather than the language.
05:10:07 * int-e shrugs
05:10:19 <int-e> I haven't studied any of this...
05:11:15 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87251&oldid=87229 * CosmicMan08 * (+10)
05:12:26 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87252&oldid=86742 * Ch44d * (-3221) rework
05:29:47 <zzo38> I don't know how it counts either; many programming languages have first-class functions, including JavaScript (for example "(x=>x)" is a identity function), and some have other stuff too but some don't. C has function pointers which is not really the same thing (although GCC also has "trampoline functions"); PostScript procedures are arrays so can be used like other values, etc
05:32:29 <zzo38> Also can be the consideration for object-oriented. For example, in C there is the FILE object, and in GNU C you can use the fopencookie function to make your own implementation of that interface.
05:35:54 <zzo38> And then, there is the case where some programming language will not have such things as built-in features but can be implemented by macros and/or by other things within that programming language.
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06:27:46 <Melvar> I have some knowledge of how to encode objects in Haskell. The short version is “records whose fields have a shared closure”, with the delightful tidbit `new = mfix` if you want to encode inheritance.
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06:33:51 <int-e> Melvar: How does that work, new $ \this -> O{ method = \x y -> <stuff involving this> } ...?
06:34:14 <int-e> err, I'm missing a `pure` there.
06:35:34 <int-e> :t Control.Monad.mfix
06:35:35 <lambdabot> error:
06:35:35 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Control.Monad.mfix’
06:35:35 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
06:35:53 <int-e> :t Control.Monad.Fix.mfix
06:35:54 <lambdabot> MonadFix m => (a -> m a) -> m a
06:36:04 <int-e> (oops, evidently I don't use this very often)
06:37:21 <int-e> I /have/ used mfix though, for EDSLs with labels.
06:43:00 <Melvar> Yes, pretty much that. If the construction of your object is pure, you can do it with `fix` or explicit corecursion, but if for example your object uses an IORef internally you need `mfix` (or the non-overloaded `fixIO` in case of IO).
06:43:42 <int-e> Melvar: Right, makes sense. It's just that 'new = mfix' doesn't really explain much about the mental model behind it :)
06:43:57 <int-e> Hence the question.
06:46:39 <Melvar> So like, you can write an object construction function `foo :: someargs -> Foo -> IO Foo` and instantiate it with `mfix foo`. If you want to extend it, the fact that `foo` hasn’t yet taken itself is important – related to the concept of “open recursion”, which is used to describe the dispatch semantics of “this”.
06:48:11 <int-e> oh yeah, I missed that the reader monad would interact with this nicely
06:48:14 <Melvar> Because now you can go `derivedFoo :: someargs -> Foo -> IO Foo; derivedFoo args this = do super <- foo this; otherconstruction; pure $ Foo { <stuff using super and this> }
06:48:38 <int-e> though, hmm, maybe not quite nicely enough. it should :P
06:48:44 <int-e> (it's not a transformer by default)
06:49:20 <Melvar> Crucially, this causes `this`-calls in `foo` to refer to the fields generated in `derivedFoo`.
06:49:43 <b_jonas> I think to define functional programming languages, you should consider SKI (or BCKW, doesn't really matter) combinator calculus and lambda calculus, because these only have functions, so you have to build everything from functions
06:51:05 <int-e> The thing is, I basically can't program CL at all. I have a workaround which is to program lambda calculus and then do abstraction elimination.
06:51:24 <int-e> So... this is how I mentally justify calling CL not functional.
06:51:50 <b_jonas> there's also multivariate versions of these: multivariate (untyped) lambda calculus, and Madore's Amicus without rules 2 and 4
06:52:12 <int-e> But there's nothing objective about it; the most objective angle is that first-order rewriting isn't functional. :P
06:52:29 <int-e> And obviously you can argue about that one as well.
06:52:58 <int-e> If you want, you can turn my argument upside down; since CL (in that view) is functional, that means first-order TRSs can be functional.
06:53:01 <int-e> *shrugs*
06:54:44 * int-e shrugs. <-- Help! I'm forgetting how to IRC.
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07:02:33 <b_jonas> (I also want the Consumer society language to be a quintessential language, but I don't think it counts as functional)
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09:28:30 <esolangs> [[User:FLeckami21]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87253&oldid=76316 * FLeckami21 * (+21) Added a new language
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09:36:26 <hanif> '<Corbin> But I'm interested in specifically what "the functional paradigm" means on the wiki, because I want to know whether my tacit language is functional.' => [[Jelly]] on the eso-wiki is a tacit proglang and has [[Category:Functional paradigm]]
09:36:57 <hanif> a data point
09:46:12 <myname> does your language has a mutable state?
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09:53:57 <hanif> not my language, but i'd have to check its docs
09:54:56 <hanif> (which are at https://github.com/DennisMitchell/jellylanguage/wiki) looks like there is a register that can be copied to and retrieaved (under 'Quicks')
09:57:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * R-Prime * New user account
09:59:37 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87254&oldid=87249 * R-Prime * (+187) /* Introductions */
10:02:23 <esolangs> [[User:Grom]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87255&oldid=81610 * Grom * (+73)
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10:46:02 <river> nakilon: i feel like you might enjoy this https://twitter.com/keenanisalive/status/1426510525555515397
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12:27:37 <nakilon> the last myname's message makes the most sense for me defining the functional
12:29:05 <nakilon> I say that "I wrote this in a functional way" when I don't use any assignment operator and just no nested and chained stdlib methods calls
12:29:17 <nakilon> *do
12:53:00 <nakilon> river never really did that but I would go for smth like ( max(0,(width1+width2)/2-(center_dist_x) ) * ( the same but for y ) )
12:54:32 <nakilon> I did physic simulation of a soft bodies falling and rolling on Athlon 1700, it was slow
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13:44:45 <Corbin> myname, nakilon: The language is [[Cammy]] and it has no mutable state.
13:44:58 <Corbin> hanif: I'm just not sure whether a language is "functional" if its arrows are not, strictly speaking, functions.
13:49:14 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87256&oldid=87225 * FLeckami21 * (+2357)
13:53:18 <esolangs> [[Sokolang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87257&oldid=87256 * FLeckami21 * (+4)
14:00:30 <hanif> Corbin: is this category theory? 'arrows'
14:06:38 <Corbin> hanif: You bet it's category theory! A topos is a sort of category, and so if we pick a different topos then we get a different interpretation of the arrows.
14:09:25 <hanif> time to do some reading then
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14:39:40 <Corbin> Hm, is https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization#Dimensions for the dimensions of syntax or the dimensions of memory space? I see at least one "multi-dimensional" language whose syntax is 1D but operates on a 4D spatial memory.
14:46:09 <myname> cammy is lacking a fix point operator
14:47:17 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87258&oldid=87246 * Corbin * (+116) Add proglang infobox. Clean up WP links.
14:48:09 <Corbin> myname: Yeah. That's intentional; I can't really undo that level of power once it's been added. My current plan, instead, is to add one (1) unbounded loop around an entire program, but require each Cammy expression to be total and terminating.
14:49:02 <myname> what does a loop help if you have no mutable state?
14:49:46 <Corbin> Loops can make progress with immutable state.
14:50:29 <Corbin> Have you seen https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf before? The goal is to carefully move from "functional programming" to "event-loop programming". And then, maybe, to reimplement the Monte language in terms of Cammy. Big long-term goal there, of course.
14:59:28 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87259&oldid=87258 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+69) /* External Resources */ Cats
15:01:03 <esolangs> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87260&oldid=87233 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+12) /* C */ Cammy
15:07:14 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87261&oldid=87245 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+71) Cats
15:08:48 <esolangs> [[Talk:\ELLOWOS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87262 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+308) /* Duplicate command */ new section
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15:21:53 <nakilon> cool graph
15:22:03 <nakilon> funny that "continuation" line does not continue
15:40:17 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87263&oldid=87259 * Corbin * (+384) /* Syntax */ Explain the type system a bit more, and give more examples.
15:48:15 <b_jonas> "require each Cammy expression to be total and terminating" => that never goes well
15:48:30 <b_jonas> it makes your programs hard to debug if they can't easily give an error
15:55:46 <Corbin> b_jonas: There's a tradition of event-loop systems where the event loop is ambient. In these systems, having an iteration of the loop (a so-called "turn") not terminate is kind of annoying. This is probably one of the biggest warts in classic E.
16:03:07 <b_jonas> Corbin: that makes sense, but sometimes you want to deliberately diverge, when you detect an error
16:05:15 <Corbin> b_jonas: I don't want E or Monte programs to ever diverge, TBH. If there's a fault, then I want it printed out and I would also like the process to crash. Because E is oriented around networking, and networking faults are tricky to manage, we don't want the additional complication of sync errors being messy too.
16:09:33 <b_jonas> Corbin: if it can print an error message then crash, that's fine, then you just mean something different by "total" than I thought
16:09:53 <b_jonas> is the program allowed to grow a list to double its length in each loop iteration?
16:10:23 <b_jonas> and is it allowed to grow a list to two to the power of the original list length in each iteration?
16:11:52 <Corbin> Oh, yes, the complexity class PR is ridiculous, for sure. I mean both that a single expression isn't Turing-complete and also that errors are handled with sum types rather than exceptional conditions.
16:12:18 <b_jonas> Corbin: so it can crash only at the end of a loop iteraton, not in any expression?
16:12:23 <Corbin> The expression (comp dup apply) is a standard Turing bird, but is rejected during type-checking as having an infinite type.
16:12:51 <b_jonas> what is comp?
16:13:01 <b_jonas> oh, you mean compose functions
16:13:54 <Corbin> comp is composition, dup is the diagonal functor, app (not "apply", whoops) is evaluation of internal homs. It takes a value x, duplicates it to make a pair (x,x), and then calls x(x) on itself.
16:18:03 <Corbin> As for taking too long in practical situations, yes; the current toolchain has no jets for natural numbers at all, so asking it to add 1_000_000 to 1_000_000 takes a little bit of time.
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16:19:26 <Corbin> But yeah, as stupid as it sounds, the slogan "well-typed programs don't go wrong" is basically what I'm going for. My version is "categorical expressions don't leave the category". If the category includes error objects, then it's not a problem.
16:20:02 <Corbin> And it happens to be the case that Pfn, whose arrows are partial functions, is equivalent to Set*, whose objects are inhabited sets and arrows are functions which can fail and return nothing.
16:27:21 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87264&oldid=87260 * FLeckami21 * (+33)
16:29:39 <esolangs> [[Cammy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87265&oldid=87263 * Corbin * (+1439) Add a section explaining the semantics in terms of lambda calculus.
16:55:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87266&oldid=84913 * Corbin * (+664) /* Tacit programming */ new section
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17:45:27 <Melvar> In regards to the link https://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng101.pdf from a page up: Since I only know STM in Haskell, does anyone know how it is made to work in languages with unrestricted side effects?
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18:10:02 <esolangs> [[List of complexity classes]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87267&oldid=45211 * Corbin * (+2466) Unstub, put in several sections corresponding to categories, try to clarify WP's immense wordy denseness.
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23:06:07 <esolangs> [[OISC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87268&oldid=84207 * Sporeball * (-1) remove last abcout pointer star
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23:28:20 <oerjan> <int-e> Mainly because it's pointless. <-- * swats int-e -----###
23:48:09 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87269 * LarhoCherqi * (+1659) Created page with "'''Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It''' is an esolang created by [[User:LarhoCherqi]], with other names being WDTTSDETIUI or Towellang. WDTTSDSETIUI's dat..."
23:52:08 <esolangs> [[WDTTSDETIUI]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87270 * LarhoCherqi * (+68) Redirected page to [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]]
23:52:47 <esolangs> [[Towellang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87271 * LarhoCherqi * (+68) Redirected page to [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]]
23:53:19 <esolangs> [[Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87272&oldid=87269 * LarhoCherqi * (+2)
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00:14:12 <Hooloovoo> why does Why Does This Towel Smell Different Each Time I Use It not involve towels?
00:16:07 <oerjan> i guess the author lost them. not a very hoopy frood if you ask me.
00:20:38 <b_jonas> threw it away after they never washed it
00:20:48 <b_jonas> it got too smelly
00:24:03 <nakilon> that's almost like b_jonas fixes teapots ..)
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00:30:16 <b_jonas> I will not buy this fungot, it is scratched
00:30:16 <fungot> b_jonas: brainsecks interpreter works :d. sorry. :( i know many people on scheme are you using
00:41:58 <esolangs> [[9f87m4atttaaaou;]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87273&oldid=87251 * CosmicMan08 * (-8)
00:46:18 <esolangs> [[GridJSON]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87274&oldid=84895 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+24) /* Commands */ Cat
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00:49:52 <esolangs> [[Typeform]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87275&oldid=83933 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) WIP
01:12:52 <esolangs> [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87276&oldid=87086 * Zzo38 * (+2396) ZZT/MegaZeux
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01:36:46 <int-e> oerjan: come on, pointless jokes are tame
01:38:32 <int-e> oerjan: There's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointless_topology and it's not! a redirect.
01:38:42 <int-e> oerjan: Which is in the same spirit.
01:40:52 <oerjan> it is however horrible grammar :(
01:42:27 <int-e> Really?
01:42:38 <oerjan> the article introduction, that is.
01:43:02 <int-e> oh, yes.
01:43:43 <oerjan> seems like it was expanded recently
01:44:32 * oerjan edits
01:49:44 <oerjan> done
01:50:47 <int-e> ...them frames...
01:51:09 * int-e ducks.
01:51:46 * oerjan remains oblivious.
01:53:59 <oerjan> mind you, it's still not _well_ written. but i'm lazy and i don't know the subject.
01:55:50 <int-e> oerjan: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/themframes.png <-- this one is totally worthy of a swat, btw, so let's call it even
01:57:18 <shachaf> So even a category skeptic would presumably acknowledge the following:
01:57:41 <shachaf> Even though every complete semilattice is a complete lattice, a free complete semilattice is a very different thing from a free complete lattice.
01:57:56 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87277&oldid=87252 * Ch44d * (+8945) add some rules
01:58:57 <oerjan> that's just how freedom works
01:59:37 <shachaf> Right.
02:02:19 <int-e> That framing though... are you suggesting that nothing is free without category theory? ;-)
02:04:11 <shachaf> No, just that this has a bit of a categorical flavor.
02:04:48 <int-e> Then again, maybe I shouldn't complain about framing after that "them frames" thing.
02:05:03 * int-e switches out the shovel for an excavator.
02:05:10 <shachaf> Should people even talk about frames?
02:05:13 <shachaf> I thought locales are where it's at.
02:05:26 <int-e> Kripke talked a lot about frames.
02:06:19 <int-e> Frames were also a good way to crash browsers... I wonder whether that's still the case.
02:07:00 <int-e> And FWIW, I'd rather have a window with frame than without.
02:07:18 <int-e> (Both physically and on a computer.)
02:07:31 <int-e> ...tThere's really a lot of things that are called frames...
02:07:49 <shachaf> I do think the categorical definition of "free" is pretty good.
02:08:13 <shachaf> I don't even know what other definition people use. I guess just one that works for algebraic structures?
02:08:31 <int-e> But then what did I learn the Knaster-Tarski fixed point theorem for?
02:13:50 * oerjan still has no idea about what's wrong with "them frames"
02:14:36 <oerjan> is it some meme i haven't caught
02:15:25 <int-e> oerjan: them frames have been naughty
02:16:12 <int-e> maybe it's just my own brain that chuckles at "them frames" without context. it happens. a lot.
02:17:06 <oerjan> OKAY
02:18:09 <int-e> In context, it's perfectly fine. There's even punctuation that makes all this inapplicable.
02:18:52 <int-e> Hmm. Not sure "punctuation" is the right word to use for quotes.
02:41:56 <nakilon> wow, found someone who edits Wikipedia
02:42:09 <keegan> i edit wikipedia
02:42:10 <keegan> on occasion
02:42:45 <nakilon> nice
02:43:07 <keegan> I used to live at a house named Pointless Topology
02:43:15 <keegan> in fact it had an IRC channel on Freenode (RIP)
02:43:33 <keegan> and there was a bot in the IRC channel that would control the color of the LED lights in the living room
02:43:47 <nakilon> house with a name?
02:44:41 <keegan> yes, it's pretty common in American nerd culture for group houses (with several housemates who are not related living together) to have a name
02:45:04 <int-e> Who wouldn't want to live inside Pointless Topology
02:45:15 <int-e> Where you can blend in with the crowd perfectly.
02:47:52 <nakilon> it's like something from a movie
02:48:45 <nakilon> in Russia you probably won't even meet any group of nerds ever in your life
02:55:14 <nakilon> *most likely
02:57:02 <keegan> don't they have technical schools and internet companies and hackerspaces in russia?
02:57:13 <keegan> that's how these groups of nerds meet each other
02:57:15 <keegan> and online of course
02:59:15 <keegan> and san francisco is not exactly affordable, even on a tech salary (especially if you're early in your career)
02:59:17 <esolangs> [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87278&oldid=87215 * KakkoiiChris * (-158) /* System Arg (\<) */ Fixed typo
02:59:32 <keegan> so you can get a small apartment by yourself, or you can rent a big house with some friends and have a nice common area and maybe even a backyard
03:00:39 <keegan> and a lot of people prefer to live with people
03:01:24 <keegan> some of them are just housing, some are more like live-in hackerspaces or event spaces or communes
03:01:40 <nakilon> keegan the only such community I'm aware about is very small one with old guys who do demoscenes for 8 bit computers
03:01:48 <keegan> fun
03:02:13 <nakilon> maybe there are some in rare universities like MSU, just a theory
03:02:46 <keegan> it may be less common in the former USSR because the soviet union built a ton of apartment housing
03:03:02 <keegan> the USA thinks everyone should live in a single family detached home with a yard
03:03:07 <keegan> even in san francisco most of the city is not zoned for apartments
03:03:20 <keegan> but obviously single people who can't afford a whole house want to live here, so they split a house
03:03:30 <nakilon> basically people gather or rent a house collectively only if they are drug addicts ..D
03:03:34 <keegan> hehe
03:04:39 <keegan> yeah some people in SF even live hostel-style with multiple bunk beds in a single room
03:04:47 <nakilon> the house/amartment is just a matter of town size -- the apartments appear only if the town is big enough, it's never a majority of homes
03:05:03 <nakilon> maybe the difference is that we didn't have hippies
03:05:11 <keegan> heh
03:06:41 <nakilon> single houses are basically never shared -- they are the family thing, inherited all at once
03:07:13 <keegan> the professional class in the USA (including programmers) tends to move far away from where they grew up for school and work
03:07:19 <keegan> so inheriting a house is not necessarily an option
03:07:43 <nakilon> there are hostels with bunk beds but only in Moscow and such -- for immigrants from poor countries who work here cleaning streets
03:09:04 <keegan> yeah here it's like... immigrants from middle america who are trying to get lucky in the startup game
03:14:25 <nakilon> speaking about "IRC controlled LED lights", in the biggest and nerdiest (except of probably Kaspersky) company Yandex no one used or even knew what is IRC -- there was one internal server that no one used; we were using some different chat platform and it was awful, so previous admin gave me the server and I tried to drag my coworkers there; set up
03:14:25 <nakilon> Jenkins notification, reports, etc., but they didn't use it ..D
03:15:40 <nakilon> there was no such thing as "build platform with notifications" at all at that time AFAIK, it was before Slack, and people knew only a few ways to chat -- ICQ, Skype and rarely Jabber; and no one automated them
03:17:06 <nakilon> basically we only used email and "go to his working place and ask him directly"
03:17:41 <nakilon> at least in my department
03:19:47 <nakilon> for most of Russian IT companies it's only when Slack and such appeared and started pushing advertisment of their features they discovered such things as automated notifications and bots at all
03:21:37 <nakilon> not even saying about making such automations, only installing some IFFFT integrations or existing plugins, heh
03:22:14 <nakilon> if you automate anything you before a "nerd" within an IT company
03:22:23 <nakilon> anyway, time for breakfast
03:22:29 <nakilon> *you become
03:22:53 <keegan> i have a hard time understanding the idea that being a nerd would be looked down upon within an IT company
03:23:12 <keegan> at least among the developers
03:30:10 <nakilon> at all jobs I had there was only once a guy that is kind of nerd, at least he's into Haskell -- learning things that you wasn't told to learn is basically a shame here
03:30:39 <nakilon> his job is Python but he codes Haskell at home and does not talk to anyone about that
03:30:49 <nakilon> to not be ashamed
03:30:51 <nakilon> ..D
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03:37:11 <nakilon> also the thing about dinners
03:38:53 <nakilon> at one job our boss on purpose tried to initiate some coding-related topics during the dinner meetings; elsewhere you are supposed to only talk about sort championships and how you'll rest from the job on a vacation
03:41:08 <nakilon> so at the dinner you talk trash, at the office you talk only about the current tickets in Jira, and there is no time to talk about programming other than that -- after 18:00 people hurry to get home and don't wanna listen about code "because tired, don't wanna think"
03:46:01 <keegan> that's sad
03:46:15 <keegan> it's sad that learning things you don't immediately need is stigmatized
03:46:22 <keegan> although i think work life separation is healthy
03:46:49 <keegan> and i don't think one needs to be a programming obsessive like i used to be to be a good programmer at work
03:46:52 <keegan> in fact it may detract
03:47:04 <keegan> because i was always sad that the things i was asked to do at work were not as interesting
03:47:11 <keegan> and that i couldn't use the coolest language or whatever
03:48:25 <keegan> now that i've been unemployed for years I'm slowly regaining the ability to enjoy programming in my free time
03:48:26 <nakilon> idk, at that job others were asking haskell guy how to write in python because he was the one who wasn't lazy to learn things about its better practices, new features, etc.
03:49:36 <nakilon> and you can't learn new things by just doing jira tickets
03:50:49 <nakilon> how do you survive being unemployed?
03:51:05 <keegan> my wife works at google
03:51:16 <nakilon> I'm without job for a year and did a mistake to gave a part of my money and no I'm in debts, it sucks
03:51:23 <nakilon> *now
03:51:56 <keegan> that sucks
03:53:06 <keegan> we are having a kid soon and i will be a full time mom
03:53:17 <keegan> which of course doesn't pay anything but does save a lot of money in childcare costs etc
03:53:24 <keegan> and probably has other benefits to the child
04:39:07 <nakilon> debian hype
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06:39:55 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87279&oldid=87261 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0)
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07:03:40 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87280&oldid=87279 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+86) /* Hello World */
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07:05:00 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87281&oldid=87280 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+78) /* \ELLOWOS */
07:07:33 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87282&oldid=87281 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+38)
07:09:14 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87283&oldid=87282 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+4)
07:11:18 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87284&oldid=87254 * Red hot dogs--- * (+219)
07:13:31 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=87285 * Red hot dogs--- * (+5341) Created page with "Pyfun is a programming language in which only the following five characters are allowed a [ ] + < Pyfun is designed such that it can be easily converted into python. To co..."
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07:29:15 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87286&oldid=87283 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+231)
07:30:06 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87287&oldid=87285 * Red hot dogs--- * (+204)
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07:31:43 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87288&oldid=87287 * Red hot dogs--- * (+2)
07:34:06 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87289&oldid=87286 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+0)
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07:39:25 <esolangs> [[Talk:\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87290&oldid=87262 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+147) /* Duplicate command */
07:39:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87291&oldid=87290 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-1) /* Duplicate command */
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08:27:09 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87292&oldid=87289 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+81)
08:27:57 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87293&oldid=87292 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+18)
09:05:37 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87294&oldid=87293 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+170) /* Programs */
09:06:16 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87295&oldid=87294 * GermanSpetsnaz * (-52) /* User Input */
09:06:57 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87296&oldid=87295 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+52) /* No User Input */
09:10:57 <esolangs> [[\ELLOWOS]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87297&oldid=87296 * GermanSpetsnaz * (+91) /* Fibonacci Sequence */
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09:44:52 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87298&oldid=87277 * Ch44d * (+26565) add the other rules
09:49:49 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87299&oldid=87264 * Ch44d * (+16) add backrooms
10:36:16 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87300&oldid=87288 * Red hot dogs--- * (-164)
10:44:35 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87301&oldid=87300 * Red hot dogs--- * (+194)
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11:55:19 <b_jonas> fungot, how many different prizes are there that are considered "the Nobel prize of mathematics"?
11:55:19 <fungot> b_jonas: if common-lisp.net starts accepting requests from all and sundry here?) form is a procedure
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13:25:01 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87302&oldid=87301 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+94) Cats
13:35:02 <esolangs> [[Backrooms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87303&oldid=87298 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+14) Lower
13:39:01 <esolangs> [[Math&Matrix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87304&oldid=76377 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+23) /* Matrix form */ cat
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16:12:10 <esolangs> [[Pyfun]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87305&oldid=87302 * Red hot dogs--- * (+296)
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17:02:42 <esolangs> [[Cheese]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=87306&oldid=86508 * Sanscicondos * (+88) Added Ca