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03:31:59 <zzo38> One use of the transactional file system of computer design I had mentioned is that you might be able to back up the entire system while it is in use
04:06:07 <Sgeo> If I believe that CPU instruction sets should not have an instruction that evaluates a polynomial, does that make me anti-VAX?
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07:12:09 <esolangs> [[ByteByteIfJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178804&oldid=174127 * Timm * (+4)
07:18:26 <esolangs> [[RFCEsolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178805&oldid=178794 * Nst021 * (+124)
07:26:37 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178806&oldid=178407 * Qpx5997 * (+743)
07:29:04 <esolangs> [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178807&oldid=178806 * Qpx5997 * (+15)
08:23:44 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178808&oldid=178770 * Dulph * (+153)
08:23:49 <esolangs> [[Talk:Calculator]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178809 * Dulph * (+237) Created page with "==Missing labels== This page seems to miss a description of Calculator labels and the a.? example (even though it is used in the truth machine code). Anyone knows where this could be found ? -[[User:Dulph|Dulph]] 8:21 01 April 2026 (UTC)"
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08:46:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:Calculator]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178810&oldid=178809 * Dulph * (+14)
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10:28:00 <lisbeths> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Yfm73V6m/FastLang+Flow.mp3
10:40:03 <lisbeths> how many languages have their own song
10:40:16 <korvo> Dunno. That's more of an operating-system thing, really.
10:48:37 <korvo> Some languages have poems, now that I think about it.
10:52:46 <lisbeths> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/lTV3SRiS/444.jpg
11:05:30 <korvo> lisbeths: BTW I blogged about vibecoding: https://gist.github.com/MostAwesomeDude/560185c24f959f6fec229739cb5a6735 tl;dr: Vibecoding cannot produce Naur theories, so cannot produce working codebases.
11:20:11 <lisbeths> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/e9ytIGHt/Fastlang.mp3
11:21:32 <lisbeths> korvo when I use ai for code I do four things 1. ask it for advice. 2. carefully prompt it for a single well written line of code not an entire code base 3. ask it to document my undocumented code 4. ask it to explain error messages
11:22:27 <korvo> Okay. None of those are good ideas to me, but I understand why people do them.
11:22:43 <korvo> In particular, I understand why people would ask any of these things of coworkers, and I understand that the ELIZA effect is very powerful.
11:33:48 <FireFly> does Qt4-flavoured C++ count as a (domain-specific) language? :p
11:34:19 <FireFly> (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbTEVbQLC8s -- qt4 dance)
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12:37:36 <esolangs> [[Adj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178811&oldid=178793 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+224) Improved the command table formatting in such a way as to prevent the operand patterns from line wraps.
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14:24:26 <ais523> currently I have a rate of 0% useful answers when asking LLMs questions, both on topics I know and on topics I don't know
14:24:39 <ais523> half the time the answer is wrong and useless, the other half it is right but useless
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14:39:36 <int-e> fungot: is 0 better or worse than NaN?
14:39:37 <fungot> int-e:/ principle included in these beds, might be driven out both at top and bottom. may not those naturalists who believe in/ body, for they were proportionally with those :)/
14:49:12 <esolangs> [[Reversable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178812 * Dulph * (+1519) Created the page about Reversable (language was fully created today)
14:51:44 <esolangs> [[Reversable/Python Implementation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178813 * Dulph * (+2132) Created page
14:52:05 <esolangs> [[Reversable/Python Implementation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178814&oldid=178813 * Dulph * (+1)
14:53:26 <esolangs> [[Reversable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178815&oldid=178812 * Aadenboy * (-12) /* Commands */
14:57:25 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178816&oldid=178766 * Dulph * (+17) /* R */ Added the Reversable language, since page just got created
15:05:22 <fizzie> Maybe not a question to ask Darwin.
15:05:24 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
15:06:05 <fizzie> I couldn't estimate a percentage for myself, but it's definitely greater than zero.
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15:24:09 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178817 * Dulph * (+2916) Created page
15:26:20 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable/Python Implementation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178818 * Dulph * (+2184) Created page with "Original (and ugly) implementation of [[2D-Reversable]] by [[User:Dulph]] class BiReversableError(Exception): pass prog = input() prog.replace("\t","") prog=prog.split("\n") endProg = [] for i in prog: endProg.append(i.split(" "))
15:27:53 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178819&oldid=178816 * Dulph * (+20) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added 2D-Reversable language
15:41:02 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178820&oldid=174565 * PrySigneToFry * (+30) Fix
15:52:02 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178821&oldid=178817 * Dulph * (+2) Corrected a typo
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16:31:34 <esolangs> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178822&oldid=170307 * Zlfp * (+9) added stub
16:37:59 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178823 * Dulph * (+3276) Created page
16:38:18 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178824&oldid=178823 * Dulph * (-1)
16:40:41 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2/Python Implementation]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178825 * Dulph * (+2300) Created page
16:41:04 <esolangs> [[Macroplace]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178826&oldid=170311 * Zlfp * (+9)
16:41:14 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178827&oldid=178819 * Dulph * (+22) /* Non-alphabetic */ Added 2D-Reversable 2
16:42:54 <esolangs> [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178828&oldid=170783 * Zlfp * (+9)
16:43:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dulph]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178829 * Dulph * (+174) Created page
16:49:09 <esolangs> [[Template:Thiswasnotdevelopedbythisuser]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178830 * Zlfp * (+169) creation
16:51:21 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178831&oldid=170309 * Zlfp * (+35) added warning
16:52:06 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Katmilijardie * New user account
16:52:25 <esolangs> [[AddByte]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178832&oldid=172517 * Zlfp * (+10)
16:52:53 <esolangs> [[Memory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178833&oldid=172518 * Zlfp * (+10)
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16:58:07 <esolangs> [[AddByteJump]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178834&oldid=172519 * Zlfp * (+167)
17:00:01 <esolangs> [[Function V]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178835&oldid=177069 * Zlfp * (+9)
17:12:22 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178836 * Aadenboy * (+1370) whatever. go my scarab!
17:13:33 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178837 * Aadenboy * (+362) Created page with "this was originally meant to be an April Fools' joke but it turned into a possible tarpit ~~~~"
17:20:11 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178838&oldid=178785 * Aadenboy * (+526) add [[Mhm!]]
17:20:37 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy/randomesolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178839&oldid=174965 * Aadenboy * (+9) add [[Mhm!]]
17:21:43 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178840&oldid=176249 * Aadenboy * (+190) /* Mhm! */ add [[Mhm!]] (haha three of my languages in a row)
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17:41:18 <esolangs> [[Assembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178841&oldid=178831 * Aadenboy * (-35) what?
17:49:23 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178842&oldid=178836 * Aadenboy * (+369) Infobox proglang
17:49:34 <esolangs> [[Countable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178843&oldid=178784 * Aadenboy * (+10) add [[Mhm!]]
17:55:16 <esolangs> [[List of esolang file extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178844&oldid=177858 * Aadenboy * (+19) add [[Mhm!]]
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18:35:43 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178845&oldid=178824 * Dulph * (+39) Fixed errors
18:36:10 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178846&oldid=178821 * Dulph * (+1) Fixed a mistake
18:38:01 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178847&oldid=178845 * Dulph * (+24) Made more clear the association values-direction
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19:42:15 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Saji782015 but active * New user account
19:44:49 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178848&oldid=178808 * Saji782015 but active * (+243)
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20:08:30 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zymbol.Lang * New user account
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21:10:17 <Zymbol-Lang> Hello, I'm interested in publishing the wiki for my new language, Zymbol-Lang, but I haven't been able to because of permission issues.
21:10:18 <Zymbol-Lang> www.zymbol-lang.org || https://github.com/zymbol-lang
21:32:51 <esolangs> [[G Sharp]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178849&oldid=177581 * Ractangle * (-16) /* Cat program */
21:34:12 <korvo> Zymbol-Lang: Did you read the directions when you registered your account?
21:38:36 <korvo> Zymbol-Lang: Also, since it looks like you're using a lot of generative-chatbot output in your work, please read [[esolang:copyright]] and [[esolang:help]] before getting started with editing.
21:43:49 <esolangs> [[Snakel]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178850&oldid=177227 * Ractangle * (+21) /* Microsoft (yes that is their actual name) */
21:47:33 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178851&oldid=178586 * StavWasPlayZ * (+4)
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01:37:54 <esolangs> [[Adj]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178852&oldid=178811 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+0) Rectified the level for the Interpreter section header.
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02:46:48 <shachaf> "He is also credited with the discovery of Girard's paradox, linear logic, the geometry of interaction, ludics, and (satirically) the mustard watch.[1]"
02:46:58 <shachaf> This sentence reads like tanebventions.
03:11:56 <korvo> Sgeo: I thought about it a little, and I have to ask whether FMA counts as Horner's rule. Like, is FMA enough to evaluate polynomials? Or does it have to include a loop?
03:22:22 <int-e> The original includes a loop: "POLY evaluates a polynomial, given the degree, the argument, and a pointer to a table of coefficients."
03:32:58 <korvo> I suppose the degree is just the length of the table. Or maybe there's something interesting that can be done by passing a smaller degree.
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05:20:20 <ais523> Zymbol-Lang: the best way to write about something that's copyrighted is to write a separate, uncopyrighted summary of how the language works and link to the original
05:21:03 <ais523> (this is also good when writing about a language whose specification is too complicated to fit onto the wiki, e.g. some golfing languages have hundreds of commands, with behaviour complex enough that it's hard to define without reference to source code
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05:25:52 <zzo38> Sometimes you can write your own document which describes the same thing in a different way (e.g. I have written a public domain document about uxn, although it is not in esolang wiki)
05:56:13 <esolangs> [[.mtcm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178853 * BODOKE2801e * (+433) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=mtcm}} :''Note that it's spelled in lowercase, except usen in start of words'' '''Mtcm''' is a small [[esosteric language]] made by [[User:BODOKE2801e]] designed to be minimalist ==Syntax== It has all of commands, are <code>></code>, <code><</code>
05:59:16 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Yayimhere2(school) * moved [[.mtcm]] to [[Mtcm]]: Move to correct title(idk why it was not in the first place, since its correct title is mtcm and that is not taken)
06:01:09 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178856&oldid=178854 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-57) remove both notes at the top of the page(first one is no longer needed, second one I have moved to in parenthesis next to the title)
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06:34:07 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Rimsky.Yamatov * New user account
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07:35:28 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178857&oldid=178837 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+117)
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08:57:45 <esolangs> [[Mango]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178858&oldid=172914 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Commands */
09:35:25 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178859&oldid=178842 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+30) /* Memory */ explain a little clearer
10:21:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178860&oldid=178848 * Zymbol.Lang * (+112)
10:25:03 <esolangs> [[Functionable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178861&oldid=178741 * PKMN Trainer * (+363) /* Syntax */
10:27:59 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178862&oldid=178860 * Zymbol.Lang * (+21)
10:31:27 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178863&oldid=178862 * Zymbol.Lang * (+1)
10:40:38 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178864&oldid=178863 * Zymbol.Lang * (-6) /* Introductions */
10:43:23 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178865&oldid=178827 * Zymbol.Lang * (+18) /* Z */
10:43:38 <esolangs> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178866&oldid=178865 * Zymbol.Lang * (+0) /* Z */
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11:02:46 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178867 * Zymbol.Lang * (+16303) Created page with "{{Infobox proglang |name = Zymbol-Lang |paradigms = [[Imperative]], [[Functional]], [[Procedural]] |author = [[User:Zymbol.Lang]] |year = 2026 |typesystem = [[Dynamic typing|Dynamic]] |memsystem = Automatic (Rust-managed) |class = [[Turing complete]] |reference
11:06:43 <esolangs> [[Functionable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178868&oldid=178861 * PKMN Trainer * (+510)
11:07:48 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178869&oldid=178867 * Zymbol.Lang * (+50)
11:14:43 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178870&oldid=178869 * Zymbol.Lang * (+1) /* Operators Reference */
11:18:31 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178871&oldid=178870 * Zymbol.Lang * (+5) /* External Links */
11:39:38 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178872&oldid=178856 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+48)
11:39:51 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178873&oldid=178872 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-1)
11:41:12 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is G7$kL9#mQ2&xP4!w
11:41:16 <HackEso> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is G7$kL9#mQ2&xP4!w
11:41:27 <int-e> (from https://www.irregular.com/publications/vibe-password-generation )
11:43:09 <esolangs> [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178874&oldid=178828 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+9)
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11:54:43 <ais523> the LLM doesn't try to pick a strong password: it tries to pick whatever string looks most like a strong password, and of course there are only a few such strings
11:56:03 <ais523> (at least given the probability distribution it embodies)
11:56:47 <int-e> Oh I remember a joke that went like that... that to be secure, passwords shall satisfy certain criteria and that a team brute forced all the passwords to find that there's just one secure password, which has been distributed to all sysadmins to use for their users.
11:57:08 <int-e> From no later than 2000, I think.
11:58:05 <int-e> ais523: Anyway. I agree that this is not surprising. But it's amusing.
11:59:52 <int-e> (It's not even specific to machines; people aren't great at randomness either. But each individual will have different preferences; we're not all using the same neural network with the same weights. ;-) )
12:02:10 <ais523> at least for passwords that I don't need to memorise, I use an appropriate number of bytes from /dev/random encoded in a way that makes them printable
12:02:29 <ais523> I feel like I may as well randomize between all possible passwords of the correct length and encoding
12:02:36 <ais523> in a way that means there's no human bias involved
12:03:51 <ais523> on one of my email accounts, my email client uses an apparently randomly generated password provided by the email account provider that's over a kilobyte long (I think they reasoned that as it was only being used by computers anyway they may as well make it completely impossible to brute-force, and went a little overbaord)
12:04:17 <int-e> Anyway, I think I'm done with the shapez 2 early access version; https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-insane-fini.jpg is the final form of the hub (with make anything machines) for the time being. ("insane" isn't me; it's the name of the scenario/difficulty)
12:04:50 <int-e> (just in time too; 1.0 is supposed to be releasesd in 3 weeks)
12:06:30 <int-e> at 1kb in size this better include some error correcting code to detect and repair bit errors
12:07:21 <ais523> I don't know how it works technically, but now that you've mentioned it, it wouldn't surprise me if there was an error-correcting code in there somewhere (although of course you need to be careful with those when it comes to passwords)
12:09:34 <int-e> hah, yesterday's xkcd
12:11:15 <int-e> (Hmm. Without JS, I shudder to think what would happen if I switched that on.)
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14:09:43 <esolangs> [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178875&oldid=178504 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+682) /* Add a logo on Vector 2022 */ new section
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14:13:04 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178876&oldid=174823 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-165) /* Basic information & introduction */
14:13:51 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178877&oldid=178876 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-575) /* Extra information */
14:13:56 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178878&oldid=178877 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-289) /* Miscellaneous */
14:14:04 <esolangs> [[User:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178879&oldid=178878 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-40) /* Basic information & introduction */
14:15:00 <esolangs> [[Manuever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178880&oldid=145856 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+37)
14:15:38 <esolangs> [[Manuever]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178881&oldid=178880 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-107) /* Commands */
14:18:05 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178882&oldid=174553 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+34)
14:18:24 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178883&oldid=178882 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+1)
14:19:53 <esolangs> [[User talk:OfficialWatchOS7Alt]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178884&oldid=178883 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-987) /* Portal */
14:21:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178885&oldid=177824 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+370) /* Genuine question */ new section
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15:47:21 <esolangs> [[Zymbol-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178886&oldid=178871 * Corbin * (-86) Fix categories and tag as slop.
16:06:08 <esolangs> [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178887&oldid=178885 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+178) /* Genuine question */
16:31:05 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178888&oldid=148920 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+535) /* List of candidates */
16:31:19 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178889&oldid=178888 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+6) /* List of candidates */
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16:42:00 <korvo> I'm alright. Tired of responding to vibecoders.
16:42:50 <Yayimhere> I must say that is a sensible respond
16:44:24 <Yayimhere> is there like an easy way to say the pair of characters that have an equal index in two different strings?
16:51:05 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178890&oldid=178857 * Aadenboy * (+422) /* Negative indexed cells? */
16:51:28 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178891&oldid=178859 * Aadenboy * (+1)
16:58:02 <ais523> Yayimhere: "corresponding positions in the strings", perhaps?
16:59:14 <ais523> it's one of those relationships that comes up sufficiently rarely that it's useful to give an example (but sufficiently often that I vaguely remember having faced the problem of unambiguously describing it before)
17:00:09 <korvo> ais523: I've been practicing for code interviews, so I recognized std::mismatch: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/algorithm/mismatch.html But I think "matching of elements from iterators" doesn't quite flow as well.
17:04:43 <ais523> it strikes me that LLMs are probably good at coming up with plausible interview questions, because producing plausible-looking things is what they are best at; I don't know whether or not those questions would be good practice for actual interview questions, though
17:05:07 <Yayimhere> hmmm. I think I may have come up with an interesting idea for a language
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17:07:53 <Yayimhere> So, the program is made up of a set of axioms and then an expression
17:08:22 <Yayimhere> and then it kinda multithreads the program by making a program thread with eevery expression that is equal to the original one
17:14:02 <ais523> are the axioms specifying which expressions are equal?
17:14:44 <ais523> if so, I think this sort of algorithm is mathematically studied a lot – this is basically "mathematical nondeterminism" in that you are trying all possibilities for your string-rewriting or tree-rewriting
17:15:21 <ais523> parsers are often mathematically formalised like that (although a sensible parser wouldn't actually be implemented like that)
17:15:29 <korvo> ais523: https://github.com/samwho/llmwalk This is vibecoded but the underlying maths is reasonable. I implemented a version of this for exploring prompts on local models.
17:16:06 <korvo> Basically, instead of committing to a single stem during beam search, do a summation over all popular tokens and show the resulting partition down to like 1% likelihood.
17:17:54 <ais523> I think maybe the mathematical object you want is a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_grammar (this inspired the programming language Thue but the key detail, of trying all possibilities in parallel, got lost along the way)
17:18:06 <ais523> but the description might be too mathematical to be helpful
17:18:37 <Yayimhere> its not precisely my idea but its pretty close
17:19:04 <Yayimhere> the axioms themselves would pretty much be the same as in Fak: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fak
17:19:14 <ais523> your idea likely also uses mathematical nondeterminism but in a different way
17:20:04 <ais523> anyway, will be /away for a bit to get food (and will be busy later)
17:20:12 <Yayimhere> perhaps having symbols affect some other expression, that then also branches and the becomes the memory expression of the one it branched "onto"
17:25:28 <korvo> Yayimhere: The general idea of proof search is very old. Gödel, who showed that it's not computable to write a proof in general, also imagined that it would be very expensive to search for a proof. I think that you can imagine why; we call it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branching_factor
17:26:12 <korvo> This is where P vs NP comes from, at least to me. A P machine can verify a proof. To do that, it starts at the axioms, applies each step of the proof, and checks whether the final result is equal to the desired theorem.
17:26:52 <korvo> BTW, in a modern string-rewriter like Metamath, that check is literal string equality. Like, "x, y" != "y, x" or "lambda x: x" != "lambda y: y". Every variable has to match exactly.
17:27:32 <korvo> So, an NP machine could search for a proof. To do that, it starts at the axioms, *nondeterministically* applies each step of the proof, and *nondeterministically* checks whether the current step is equal to the desired theorem.
17:28:12 <korvo> But, do NP machines exist? And after nearly a century, our current hunch is P != NP. Moreover, we think that physics won't give us an NP machine.
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17:52:23 <Yayimhere49> hmm. Now, ive come up with another(quite simple) idea
17:52:39 <Yayimhere49> like, multiple terminals? Where code is located to specific terminals
17:52:54 <Yayimhere49> so like you have one section of the program that only reads one of them
17:53:03 <Yayimhere49> and another reading and writing to another
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17:54:55 <korvo> Sure. That's basically the Internet.
17:56:20 <Yayimhere49> maybe when a section of code leaves a specific console and another enters, the output of thee last is read as input for the new
17:59:30 <b_jonas> int-e: re shapez preview, how many different shapes is that trying to deliver to the hub at the same type?
17:59:31 <fizzie> I have a Perl script for fungot models where you give it the initial context, and then it generates N sample responses for the same context, but it doesn't do that thing of trying to find the N most likely responses, that looks more interesting.
17:59:32 <fungot> fizzie: i think it will make that nicer
17:59:59 <fizzie> fungot: I agree, but on the other hand is it really worth doing?
17:59:59 <fungot> fizzie: heh scoping in assignation and blocks here
18:08:49 <esolangs> [[Bad Apple In Deadfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178892 * Win7HE * (+587) the entire code.
18:09:17 <ais523> Yayimhere49: my very first esolang, which I never released (or even fully specified) because it was so bad, was dataflow-based: parts of a program could only act on data immediately next to them
18:09:35 <esolangs> [[Bad Apple In Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178893&oldid=178892 * Win7HE * (+9) /* Changes */
18:09:39 <ais523> and would output data next to them ,too
18:09:48 <ais523> no, in BF the data is on the tape
18:09:57 <ais523> in this, the data was effectively in the same grid as the source code
18:10:22 <ais523> this is an interesting idea if you have it working in a massively-parallel way, like a cellular automaton
18:10:28 <Yayimhere49> I would love to see it done properly but I dont think I'd be able to do it
18:10:43 <ais523> but I didn't (due to lack of experience), it had an instruction pointer
18:10:52 <ais523> which is more or less just a waste of a good idea
18:11:18 <ais523> (that said, the cellular-automaton approach has been thoroughly explored now using actual 2D cellular automata – the Game of Life is the most studied)
18:12:41 <ais523> I was interested in the "wire-crossing problem" which a lot of early esolangers were already interested in, but in the end I concluded that the problem was likely badly defined and very hard to make rigorous in a way that made the problem actually interesting
18:13:09 <ais523> like, nobody could precisely define what the problem actually was
18:14:06 <Yayimhere49> yea, when I came across is(which, perhaps surprisingly I didnt before quite late into making esolangs) I was confused on how the definitions actuall wroekd out
18:14:34 <ais523> the details of the language I remember are that each command was a 2×2 square of characters and the commands were placed onto a hex grid – I don't think I got as far as working out what the commands actually were
18:14:58 <ais523> although I think the IP didn't have a direction, just a position, and each command was responsible for moving it in the correct direction (that is probably what one of the characters in the square was going to be)
18:16:22 <ais523> nowadays my esolangs often don't have explicit commands at all (and when they do it's often because I'm intentionally trying to leave a gap in the set of things they can collectively accomplish)
18:18:09 <ais523> sometimes I am surprised at how relatively simple https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos is, given how precisely targeted the computational class is
18:18:41 <Yayimhere49> I should propably read and understand feed the chaos at some point, I just haven't gotten to it lol
18:19:06 <Yayimhere49> I did once have the idea of trying to create a language that is string based, but equivalent to Feed the chaos
18:19:41 <ais523> it seems to be a surprisingly common computational class, given that (as far as I know) it was only discovered a few years ago
18:20:45 <b_jonas> as for simple, I was just thinking that one of the reasons why Rubik's cube is such a great puzzle is that it feels nicely canonical. and also that there aren't too many popular puzzles like that. there's the puzzle to pack the 12 pentominos into a rectangle.
18:21:22 <ais523> b_jonas: I have mixed feelings about that pentomino puzzle – a puzzle collection I own had that puzzle but with all possible sizes of rectangle
18:21:27 <ais523> and it was frustrating
18:21:35 <ais523> I think I solved all or at least most of them eventually
18:21:58 <ais523> * all possible shapes of rectangle, they are of course all the same size if you measure the area
18:22:02 <b_jonas> ais523: oh certainly, the narrow ones are way too frustrating, but 6×10 isn't
18:22:29 <b_jonas> 3×20 has very few solutions, 2 IIRC
18:22:41 <ais523> I kind-of liked 3×20 because it's an exercise in eliminating possibilities and logical deduction
18:23:01 <ais523> I can't remember whether I ever actually found a solution
18:23:20 <ais523> but there is a lot of logic you can use to prove that certain pieces have to go in certain places, or at least rule it down to few possibilities
18:24:23 <b_jonas> ais523: did you get any development on the gamepad English text typing schemes since last time?
18:24:35 <ais523> b_jonas: yes mentally but I didn't write any of it down
18:24:53 <ais523> my plan was to use the back shoulder buttons/triggers as shift (on the left) and number (on the right)
18:25:33 <ais523> and then I assigned all of ASCII, plus a few more punctuation marks like ×, ÷, minus sign, dash, to the resulting maps
18:26:13 <ais523> also I decided to split the right shoulder + face buttons chords (which produce common punctuation marks) based on which you pressed first, to get 16 possibilities rather than 8
18:26:42 <ais523> (for diagonals, choosing which orthogonal direction is pressed first is frustrating, but for space+vowel pairs, which are diagonal-like, it's trivial)
18:26:45 <b_jonas> did you figure out how number mode should work?
18:27:19 <ais523> D-pad is 1 at the top clockwise to 8 at the top left; 0 is top face button, 9 is top-left face button pair
18:28:27 <ais523> and then the rest of the face buttons are punctuation, clockwise from 0 it's = + × . ÷ −
18:28:39 <ais523> (sorry for the delay, took me a while to find the minus sign as it isn't on my keyboard)
18:30:01 <ais523> one good thing about this is that a) you can use it as the input method for a simple calculator, b) you can do obvious substitutions to use it as a means of typing phone numbers (# for =, * for ×, a hyphen-minus rather than a minus, and + can appear in phone numbers too)
18:31:25 <ais523> now, the great thing about this is that if you hold shift + number, you get punctuation marks and those can basically match those on a qwerty keyboard
18:32:00 <ais523> @ where 2 appears, # for 3, $ for 4, % for 5, ^ for 6, & for 7, * for 8
18:32:17 <ais523> 1 is an exception (because ! is already on the basic punctuation wheel), I think shift-1 is ~ in my scheme
18:33:08 <ais523> shift+number+face buttons does brackets ()[]{}<>
18:34:27 <ais523> and doing space + face button in that order (rather than face button + space) gives you (from the right clockwise) _\|/–`"' which is extremely easy to remember as they all point to the middle of the wheel
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18:35:28 <ais523> I think this is the whole of ASCII – if there's a character I've missed, it goes where / was on the paste I linked earlier (because / is now on space+button rather than button+space)
18:36:20 <ais523> nope, just checked my keyboard and it's all there
18:37:11 <ais523> anyway, I haven't implemented this and I haven't tested it out on an actual controller yet either
18:37:49 <ais523> I was also considering having a press of shift on its own be caps lock, likewise a press of numshift on its own be numlock, but am not sure I like that
18:38:12 <ais523> almost all modern controllers have the back triggers as pressure-sensitive so it might depend on how hard you press them
18:38:44 <ais523> (amazingly, you can actually read even that information from a web page)
18:40:26 <ais523> some controllers went overboard and had all the buttons pressure-sensitive, but it is specifically the back triggers on the current consensus controller design (and they are normally designed to have a big travel range and to let you feel how much pressure you're applying, unlike the other button-like controls)
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18:41:17 <b_jonas> hold on, I think you haven't defined what the 16 combinations of space with vowel stick gives
18:41:37 <ais523> morning aadenboy (although it's actually evening for me)
18:43:25 <b_jonas> oh I see, that's what gives slash and backslash
18:43:35 <ais523> b_jonas: _\|/–`"' if you press space first, and the punctuation from before (?;.,-/!:) if you press the vowel first
18:43:45 <ais523> although I was planning to replace / with something else
18:44:05 <ais523> could easily be a non-ASCII character, maybe it should be a compose key?
18:44:52 <ais523> the vowel-first /, that is, not the one that's in a nicely symmetrical location
18:46:56 <ais523> I wanted a compose key as it's one of the most mnemonic possible ways to extend the character repertoire
18:49:33 <fizzie> On regular keyboards, I always bind the menu key as the compose key, and it's annoying to me how many smaller form-factor keyboards (including laptops) just omit that key, possibly to fit in a `fn` key that's hardwaristically wired (well, probably firmwaristically in practice, but still) and therefore impossible to use for other purposes.
18:49:57 <ais523> fizzie: on this laptop, it's on fn + right ctrl
18:50:29 <ais523> I have bought a new laptop but haven't really started using it yet, that one has multiple questionable keys on the keyboard, but the right ctrl key is replaced by a Copilot key (and menu is Fn+Copilot)
18:50:52 <ais523> this seems obviously less useful than a ctrl key, but I think Microsoft must have substantially subsidised the price with the advertising
18:51:05 <fizzie> I'm using altgr + the (single, left) windows key for compose on this laptop, which is not incredibly convenient to press.
18:51:14 <ais523> (Ubuntu 24.04 is apparently unable to see the key at all)
18:51:20 <fizzie> But that's a good point, I should see if fn + some other key is perhaps a menu key.
18:51:24 <ais523> I use caps lock as control on this layout
18:51:32 <ais523> (and shift-shift as caps lock)
18:51:37 <ais523> * caps lock as compose
18:51:55 <ais523> bad typo, because caps lock as control is a reasonable configuration that is common among Emacs users, it just isn't mine
18:52:20 <ais523> I do end up typoing shift-shift occasionally, so maybe caps lock should be something that's harder to press, but it works most of the time
18:52:39 <ais523> that said, the default binding for compose used to be shift-altgr and yet that doesn't seem to work nowadays – I wonder what changed?
18:53:59 <b_jonas> that sounds like those television remotes with a youtube and a disney button
18:54:15 <fizzie> My current keyboard has two keys labeled "esc" (a black one and a red one), because it came with a rather limited set of keycaps, and the red esc is the closest I could think of for the pause/break key (which I use as a shortcut for locking the screen, something you do when you need a break).
18:55:04 <fizzie> Chromebooks used to, and maybe still do, have an Assistant key. Maybe it's a Gemini key now?
18:55:20 <b_jonas> I bound the caps-lock+tab keys to caps lock at one point
18:55:20 <ais523> b_jonas: I was concerned at first until I realised it was just a keyboard button (not sure what sequence it sends), the Microsoft documentation says that if you don't have Copilot set up it opens Bing
18:55:48 <ais523> b_jonas: heh, that also seems somewhat easy to typo, although it'd be a different nature of typo than the one that produces shift-shift
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18:56:31 <ais523> I use Ubuntu's default of Ctrl-Alt-L as a screen lock sequence (although thinking about it, it's weird that it doesn't start with Super, given that it's a global shortcut)
18:57:04 <fizzie> Surveying three Chromebook models, two do appear to have a "G" key (with the Google G logo), which I imagine _must_ do something Gemini-related now (by default).
18:57:32 <ais523> the really weird thing about the new laptop is that it appears to have a "snipping tool" button (which is Windows's built-in screenshot program) in addition to PrtSc, and pressing it appears to send a chord rather than being programmed as a separate key
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18:58:14 <ais523> I would have preferred home/end/pgup/pgdn buttons, which it doesn't really have (although they are as usual available on the numpad if you turn numlock off)
18:59:58 <fizzie> This keyboard's keycap set included one key that has, like, a square with a diagonal through it, and two small crosses at the other two corners, which I'm using as a PrtSc key, because it kind of looks like a rectangle selection tool, but I don't know if that's the intended meaning or not.
19:00:02 <ais523> korvo: so in the rules of Yugioh, you can sort-of activate two trap cards at once, but have to give the opponent a chance to do something in between (and the action they take might stop the second one activating)
19:00:33 <ais523> but after activating one, if they do nothing, you can activate the second and then they will both resolve together (in the reverse of the order you activated them, but nothing can happen in between)
19:01:21 <ais523> fizzie: that's very similar to the snipping tool button on my new laptop's keyboard (which doesn't have the diagonal, it's a square with a cross at the top-left and bottom-right corner)
19:01:36 <ais523> or, more of a rectangle actually, but close to square
19:03:05 <fizzie> Internet seems to suggest it is indeed the Keychron standard screenshot symbol.
19:14:03 <esolangs> [[Gur yvsr]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178894&oldid=178138 * Placeholding * (+42)
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20:42:29 <korvo> Yeah, my post title was a deliberate joke about how it's not possible to actually activate two trap cards in a single motion. Like hitting two birds with one stone, to use an earlier snowclone.
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21:51:17 <fizzie> We've been told we now have to say "feeding two birds with one cone", for sensitivity reasons.
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02:24:33 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178895&oldid=178415 * Yoyolin0409 * (+32) /* Syntax */
02:45:31 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178896&oldid=178895 * Yoyolin0409 * (-436) /* statistics_and_file */
02:45:53 <esolangs> [[User:Yoyolin0409/STL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178897&oldid=177235 * Yoyolin0409 * (+422)
02:47:14 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178898&oldid=178896 * Yoyolin0409 * (+179) /* statistics_and_file */
02:49:06 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178899&oldid=178898 * Yoyolin0409 * (+17) /* string */
02:52:04 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178900&oldid=178899 * Yoyolin0409 * (+237) /* string */
02:52:23 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178901&oldid=178900 * Yoyolin0409 * (+5) /* string */
02:52:40 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178902&oldid=178901 * Yoyolin0409 * (+2) /* string */
02:52:49 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178903&oldid=178902 * Yoyolin0409 * (+1) /* string */
03:03:01 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178904&oldid=178903 * Yoyolin0409 * (+152) /* lambda */
03:03:49 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178905&oldid=178904 * Yoyolin0409 * (+13) /* lambda */
03:12:15 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178906&oldid=178905 * Yoyolin0409 * (-5) /* Turing completeness proof using brainfuck */
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03:23:04 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178907&oldid=178906 * Yoyolin0409 * (+150) /* Syntax */
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03:42:46 <esolangs> [[User:BODOKE2801e]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178908&oldid=175168 * BODOKE2801e * (+119)
03:44:12 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178909&oldid=178907 * Yoyolin0409 * (+816)
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03:46:15 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178910&oldid=178909 * Yoyolin0409 * (+1) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
03:51:27 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178911&oldid=178910 * Yoyolin0409 * (+74) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
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03:54:49 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178912&oldid=178911 * Yoyolin0409 * (+19) /* Preprocessors */
03:58:41 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178913&oldid=178912 * Yoyolin0409 * (-906) /* statistics_and_file */
03:59:03 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178914&oldid=178913 * Yoyolin0409 * (-28) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
04:04:00 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178915&oldid=178914 * Yoyolin0409 * (-3) /* statistics */
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04:34:36 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178916&oldid=178915 * Yoyolin0409 * (+44) /* string */
04:36:55 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178917&oldid=178916 * Yoyolin0409 * (+103)
04:39:29 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178918&oldid=178917 * Yoyolin0409 * (+19) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
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05:40:28 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178919&oldid=178873 * BODOKE2801e * (+1727)
07:09:46 <esolangs> [[Kind n' Single]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178920&oldid=166784 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+24) /* System */
07:14:34 <esolangs> [[Kind n' Single]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178921&oldid=178920 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+64) /* System */
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07:48:36 <esolangs> [[Kind n' Single]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178922&oldid=178921 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+151) /* System */
08:03:43 <esolangs> [[Div]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178923 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1806) Created page with "'''Div''', named after divided and the divine comedy, is an Esoteric Programming Language created by [[User:Yayimhere]], based mainly on string prefixes, and [[An Odd Rewriting System]], specifically in the concept of "Definitions". == Syntax == A program is in
08:05:12 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178924&oldid=178918 * Yoyolin0409 * (+6) /* Command Table */
08:05:43 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178925&oldid=178924 * Yoyolin0409 * (-104) /* Note */
08:08:03 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178926&oldid=178925 * Yoyolin0409 * (-81) /* Examples */
08:10:47 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178927&oldid=178926 * Yoyolin0409 * (-10) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
08:11:19 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178928&oldid=178927 * Yoyolin0409 * (-1) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
08:16:46 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178929&oldid=178928 * Yoyolin0409 * (+61) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
08:18:02 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178930&oldid=178929 * Yoyolin0409 * (+22) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
08:19:57 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178931&oldid=178930 * Yoyolin0409 * (+69) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
08:21:36 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178932&oldid=178931 * Yoyolin0409 * (-402) /* Turing completeness proof using brainfuck */
08:21:52 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178933&oldid=178932 * Yoyolin0409 * (-5) /* Real brainfuck interpreter */
08:22:39 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178934&oldid=178933 * Yoyolin0409 * (+8) /* OOP examples */
08:30:34 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178935&oldid=178934 * Yoyolin0409 * (+141) /* brainfuck interpreter */
08:32:08 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178936&oldid=178935 * Yoyolin0409 * (+46) /* brainfuck interpreter */
08:33:18 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178937&oldid=178936 * Yoyolin0409 * (+14) /* Command Table */
08:34:25 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178938&oldid=178937 * Yoyolin0409 * (+17) /* brainfuck interpreter */
08:35:01 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178939&oldid=178938 * Yoyolin0409 * (+0) /* brainfuck interpreter */
09:03:37 <esolangs> [[Div]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178940&oldid=178923 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+127)
09:34:13 <b_jonas> ais523: there's also the flag semaphore code, which is designed to be signaled by an unaided human with a flag held in each hand. you can hold each flag in any of eight directions, though which flag is which doesn't matter, so there are only 36 possible signals. some people already know this one, so for them it might work as an input method on two d-pads on a controller if you can relyably input the
10:02:17 <esolangs> [[File:SHSM down arrow for guide signs.png]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178941&oldid=174453 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (-35) Blanked the page
10:04:12 <esolangs> [[Mtcm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178942&oldid=178919 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+9) stille a stub, doesnt really describe its memory or how the state changing works.
10:11:50 <esolangs> [[Emojifunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178943&oldid=142226 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+8)
10:18:55 <esolangs> [[Lorem Ipsum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178944&oldid=175833 * Gggfr * (+4) /* Full width commands */
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10:50:27 <esolangs> [[Talk:Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178945&oldid=71651 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+590) /* TMMLPTEALPAITANFNFAL */ new section
10:51:08 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178946&oldid=178939 * Yoyolin0409 * (+16) /* Preprocessors */
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11:04:55 <ais523> I'm a bit tired, as usual, but otherwise OK
11:05:09 <ais523> also a bit distracted, there's lots of programming I need to do but I'm having trouble actually making my mind up to do it
11:06:44 <Yayimhere> same, I have an interpreter to complete but
11:45:34 <esolangs> [[Lorem Ipsum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178947&oldid=178944 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+39) /* Demonstration */
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12:24:08 <fizzie> Hah! Was testing the wiki question-answerer after some code changes with my default test question ("Who invented Befunge?"), and somehow the MediaWiki search for "Befunge creator" (extracted search term) returned `Euclid`, `Dotlang` and `HQ9funge` as the best matches for that question.
12:24:13 <fizzie> So the model dutifully used those as context and proclaimed: "Befunge was created by User:Andrew3335. The article states that Dotlang was “partially derivative of befunge,” indicating Andrew3335 was also the creator of Befunge."
12:24:47 <fizzie> That's... not exactly how it works. But it definitely needs a better search (which might be a valuable thing to have in its own right anyway).
12:24:59 <fizzie> (On a later attempt it did switch the search query to "Befunge inventor", which does get `Funge-98` as the only search result, which makes it give the correct answer.)
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12:28:20 <esolangs> [[Lorem Ipsum]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178948&oldid=178947 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+377) /* Examples */
12:50:56 <esolangs> [[Dangermouse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178949 * OfficialWatchOS7Alt * (+30) Redirected page to [[David Morgan-Mar]]
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13:19:25 <ais523> MediaWiki search works best when you're searching for a single noun, I think (rather than multiple nouns that would have to appear on the same page)
13:19:44 <ais523> the search term for that should just be "Befunge", not "Befunge creator"
13:22:27 <fizzie> I tried to prompt the search term extraction to prefer single nouns, but it decided to search for "Mark Russinengo" instead. :)
13:23:17 <fizzie> And of course it didn't find any results, so it had to answer without wiki context, and produced: "Befunge was invented by Stefan Gustav Adolf Johannesson in 1993."
13:23:23 <fizzie> (Interesting that it got the year right.)
13:24:19 <FireFly> ah yes, the famous mean inventor name
13:24:28 <ais523> that's a bizarre level of AI decision-making
13:25:53 <ais523> zero search engine results for Mark Russinengo if you insist on the spelling of the surname, that's impressive
13:26:28 <int-e> But it does look like a plausible name, so it must be real.
13:26:44 <int-e> You just have to BELIEVE.
13:28:33 <ais523> LLM output is after all optimised for looking plausible
13:29:59 <int-e> I would not have used the word "decision making" though I suppose it does not, technically, imply any sort of careful deliberation.
13:32:50 <ais523> it is still making decisions, it just isn't making them very well
13:33:24 <ais523> if you think about it, all an LLM does is decide which token comes next
13:36:31 <int-e> `le/rn token anxiety/Tokens participating in a Markov chain often get nervous while waiting for their turn to shine. This is called token anxiety.
13:36:33 <HackEso> Usage: `le/[/]rn <key>//<wisdom>
13:36:44 <int-e> `le/rn token anxiety//Tokens participating in a Markov chain often get nervous while waiting for their turn to shine. This is called token anxiety.
13:36:48 <HackEso> Learned 'token anxiety': Tokens participating in a Markov chain often get nervous while waiting for their turn to shine. This is called token anxiety.
13:41:06 <fizzie> Next two attempts: search for Andrew S. Smith, invented by Jürg Steiner; search for Steve Russell, invented by Daniel Grünfeld.
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13:42:36 <fizzie> (And search for Whittington, invented by Jarko Määttänen.)
13:43:23 <fizzie> I have been planning to try out one of those text-embedding cosine-distance semantic search approaches, though I'm a little doubtful as to how well that'll work on esolang content either.
13:50:54 <ais523> oh, I bet it's guessing at the answer and using that as a search term
13:51:00 <ais523> rather than trying to pick a search term from the question
13:51:41 <int-e> XZ problem (where, instead of asking Y, you jump straight to the conclusion, Z)
13:53:22 <fizzie> I just realized while it was a _little_ more silly than even I would have expected.
13:53:58 <fizzie> Previously I was using a lower-level library to run inference, and so my prompts included the markers the Gemma instruction-tuned variant uses to indicate the turns and roles (user, model).
13:54:35 <fizzie> But I switched to a different thing to run it on the GPU, which handles the prompting syntax for me, so it had those all doubled.
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13:58:15 <FireFly> int-e: I thought an XZ problem was when you have collaborators gaslighting you into accepting suspicious opaque binaries into the project's test data *ducks*
13:58:17 <fizzie> On the other hand, now that it does correctly land on the search query "Befunge", it gets confused by the rather long article about Befunge instead.
13:59:02 <int-e> FireFly: that's good too
14:00:49 <ais523> FireFly: it was more than just collaborators, the attacker actually maintained xz in a nonmalicious way for about 2 years in order to build up trust
14:01:33 <FireFly> I just wanted to compress it into a short line to make the reference obvious enough :p
14:11:25 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178950&oldid=178851 * StavWasPlayZ * (-18) Add compiler implementation
14:13:06 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178951&oldid=178950 * StavWasPlayZ * (+1)
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15:19:41 <esolangs> [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178952&oldid=178874 * Timm * (+13)
15:35:21 <korvo> fizzie: Note that LLMs learn *all* memetic associations, including ones which we might normally think of as contrived word games. For example, it's quite reasonable to ask "Who was the president of USA in 1990s?" -> RAG gives concepts close to "USA", "president", "1990s" like "Al Gore" -> model assigns high probability to "Bill Clinton".
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16:02:54 <HackEso> fire//Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
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16:05:28 <HackEso> Al Gore invented the algorithm.
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17:13:22 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheZwierz * New user account
17:19:51 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178953&oldid=178864 * TheZwierz * (+196) /* Introductions */
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17:43:47 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheLeviathan * New user account
18:10:23 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178954&oldid=174843 * SuperSMG5 * (+557) i added another idea
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19:08:35 <esolangs> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178955&oldid=178954 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+218) /* General Ideas */
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19:39:52 <Yayimhere> how are you all doing at this time
19:42:07 <Yayimhere> recently I had an idea of a language that when given itself as input in Stdin, its returns itself, however for any other input it doesn't. it isn't that interesting on its own I guess, but I think something interesting could be made from it, with some secondary idea attached to it
19:44:20 <Yayimhere> i was thinking of making it a Crab's Jukebox style language, where the program reads its program as if it was the record
19:46:26 <ais523> Yayimhere: I saw that on the list of ideas
19:46:48 <ais523> in korvo-language that would be "each function definable in the language is its own only fixed point"
19:47:23 <Yayimhere> also surprising that you saw it so quick
19:47:30 <Yayimhere> maybe I shouldn't be that surprised though
19:47:54 <ais523> it feels like the sort of problem where either it's impossible, or there's some trick to make it possible but that isn't very interesting (along the lines of languages which are quine-free onyl because the print statement doesn't work if it would output something that matches the source code)
19:48:04 <korvo> Hm, through some sort of structure? Or just as an axiom?
19:48:28 <ais523> I tend to look at your (Yayimhere's) edits faster than other people's because they're more likely to be interesting
19:48:59 <Yayimhere> i assume that is a compliment right?
19:49:15 <korvo> Yeah, exactly. Or flip it. You could always have each function store some sort of copy of itself, and the function detects that copy; otherwise, all functions have to *not* have fixed points. That's easier than it sounds.
19:49:29 <ais523> some edits are likely to need admin attention and those I also look at more quickly, but that's less of a positive
19:50:12 <Yayimhere> korvo: i was thinking of making the programs be some sort text reader that skips certain parts of text, or re-read some, based on some sort of syntax defined in the program
19:50:22 <Yayimhere> then this would be restricted in such a way that
19:51:22 <ais523> now I'm thinking along the lines of "language which always maps 0 to 0" and then you xor the input and output with the source code
19:52:06 <Yayimhere> I think I'll go sit with some paper tomorrow to make it a little easier to think about(which is a thing ive begun doing)
19:52:52 <Yayimhere> but I am certainly interested in peoples solutions
19:53:03 <ais523> and now I'm thinking about https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/175365/transformers-in-disguise-cops-thread which is sort-of related (it's a series of challenges along the lines of "a program that was given itself as input outputted string X, given any other input it would output something else, find the program" under a size limit to try to ensure that there's only one solution)
19:53:38 <ais523> ugh, but it has a lot more adverts than it used to, I'd recommend using an ad blocker
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19:54:10 <Yayimhere> I dont actually know if safari has such things as extentions(and thereby Ad blockers)
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19:55:36 <Yayimhere> ive gotten used to just ignore ads at this point
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20:01:25 <Yayimhere> ill go read that thread later, thanks for showing it to me
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20:43:09 <zzo38> Some ads can be avoided by disabling JavaScripts, and by some other stuff, so a specialized ad blocker is not necessarily needed
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22:43:21 <aadenboy> I should connect to here more frequently....
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23:20:21 <aadenboy> can't wait for 2027 where my user page is a whole 20 pages long or something
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03:43:05 <b_jonas> In RISC-V specification, in https://docs.riscv.org/reference/isa/unpriv/zihintntl.html table 1 seems to be missing size bounds. What is that table supposed to be saying? This problem is present in both the HTML and PDF versions of the manual.
03:56:50 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh, great. This used to be a .tex file: https://github.com/riscv/riscv-isa-manual/blob/cd9764fde9c704fb63e519eb7774e224835ee5f8/src/zihintntl.tex#L68-L84
03:58:14 <int-e> (the next commit removes the .tex file; you can see the .adoc version right beside it and it's missing the numbers)
04:29:39 <zzo38> I had thought, if the graphics card that I had described would be made, although 3D graphics is not one of the features I had considered important, I would consider video playback to be one; you might want to play two videos at once for the purpose of comparison but I think not more than two at once would be needed.
04:30:19 <zzo38> When doing video playback, I had considered that the low 4-bits of each channel can be used for opacity so that you can overlay translucent captions on the video.
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05:53:35 <esolangs> [[User:MihaiEso]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178956&oldid=172459 * MihaiEso * (+24) /* My targets */
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06:25:29 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178957&oldid=178486 * Esolang lover123 * (+129) fixed some stuff
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08:26:54 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+405) Created page with "this is a notation for infinities, which I think can reach pretty dang high in the hierarchy of infinities: * <code>E[0](x,y) = y</code> * <code>E[1](x,y) = x + y</code> * <code><sup>y</sup>J[z](x) = E[z](x,y)</code> * <code>E[n+1](x,y) = <su
08:27:02 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Eliloulou10 * New user account
08:36:24 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178959&oldid=178953 * Eliloulou10 * (+240)
08:44:51 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178960&oldid=178958 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-34)
08:47:16 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178961&oldid=178960 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+87)
08:49:54 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178962&oldid=178961 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+39)
08:57:37 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178963&oldid=178962 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+53)
09:00:15 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178964&oldid=178957 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-14) better formatting
09:00:27 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178965&oldid=178964 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+5)
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09:05:05 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178966&oldid=178965 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+54) /* Implementations */
09:05:47 <esolangs> [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178967&oldid=178401 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+2) /* Cat program */
09:08:07 <esolangs> [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178968&oldid=178967 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+140)
09:10:51 <esolangs> [[User:RaiseAfloppaFan3925]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178969&oldid=178410 * RaiseAfloppaFan3925 * (+447) forgot one esolang
09:11:09 <esolangs> [[Spore]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178970&oldid=178952 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+52)
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09:33:39 <esolangs> [[Super-Easy-Lang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178971&oldid=178968 * PrySigneToFry * (+79)
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09:57:32 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178972&oldid=178288 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-182) /* ppl i like and dont like */
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10:14:48 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178973&oldid=178966 * Esolang lover123 * (+405)
10:15:32 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178974&oldid=178973 * Dragoneater67 * (+1) /* */ grrr where spaces
10:20:20 <dragoneater67> also, whats that {{User's path|username=User:Yayimhere}} thing on your userpage for?
10:21:32 <Yayimhere> solve https://esolangs.org/wiki/Final_Word_Of_The_Day
10:21:44 <Yayimhere> (and feeel free. to ask any questions while trying)
10:23:03 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178975&oldid=178974 * Esolang lover123 * (+72)
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11:42:31 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178976&oldid=178703 * Dragoneater67 * (+151)
11:51:42 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178977&oldid=178976 * Dragoneater67 * (+21) whynot
11:52:18 <Yayimhere> dragoneatter67 thats not used for user pages, its used for like moderately famous people in our community
12:10:30 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178978&oldid=178977 * Dragoneater67 * (-21)
12:12:57 <dragoneater67> ive come to conclusion that first 2 properties are trivially cheesed
12:13:36 <Yayimhere> yea, but then MIAUMIAU would also be a quine
12:14:41 <Yayimhere> that works! you cant have any other printing though
12:14:59 <Yayimhere> ya still have to fix the narcissist thing
12:15:05 <ais523> I haven't heard the word "cheesing" applied to esolangs before, but I like it – it fits very well, analogous with the same context in computer games
12:16:24 <dragoneater67> my general idea is that since arbitrary i/o is not neccessary, so i can just restrict it enough to fit very specific usecases
12:20:53 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178979&oldid=178219 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-31)
12:28:25 <Yayimhere> btw dragoneater67, I think the narrcicist thing cna be done by making the input command always do narrcicist stuff
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12:52:27 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * * New user account
13:01:43 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178980&oldid=178978 * Dragoneater67 * (+19)
13:03:19 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178981&oldid=176044 * Dragoneater67 * (-7727) <dragoneater67> this should look like i sent an irc message on some clients!
13:05:14 <esolangs> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178982&oldid=178959 * * (+115) /* Introductions */
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13:23:44 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178983&oldid=178846 * Dulph * (+80)
13:26:02 <dragoneater67> what does "every FWOTD command given as input to another FWOTD command could be replaced by a third FWOTD command" mean?
13:26:31 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178984&oldid=178818 * Dulph * (+128)
13:26:37 <Yayimhere> it practically implies commands can be applied like functions to other commands
13:27:07 <Yayimhere> and those are always rewritable as another command in the set
13:27:24 <Yayimhere> (note that it says this doesnt apply to commands that are created using this process)
13:27:32 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2/Python Implementation]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178985&oldid=178825 * Dulph * (+128)
13:28:23 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable 2]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178986&oldid=178847 * Dulph * (+124)
13:28:52 <esolangs> [[2D-Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178987&oldid=178983 * Dulph * (+44)
13:29:14 <esolangs> [[Reversable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178988&oldid=178815 * Dulph * (+124)
13:29:30 <int-e> b_jonas: https://github.com/riscv/riscv-isa-manual/pull/2821 (do you want and credit there?)
13:40:07 <b_jonas> int-e: wait, there's a typo in your patch, it now says "greater 1 MiB than" instead of "greater than 1 MiB"
13:41:07 <int-e> b_jonas: so how do I credit you in a github context :P
13:41:18 <int-e> without referring to this place
13:42:51 <b_jonas> https://github.com/b-jonas0
13:48:42 <int-e> b_jonas: Fixed, thanks. Also mentioned you.
13:48:59 <int-e> b_jonas: However, also decided I can't be arsed to make it more than a draft.
13:50:50 <int-e> (Also, ridiculously, they want signed commits. But they don't sign their own stuff.)
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14:07:06 <dragoneater67> does rule 5 mean that FWOTD can only execute the input ONLY if it equals its own source code?
14:08:55 <int-e> Oh I guess signing commits is easy enough to do even though I do not see the point.
14:09:32 <Yayimhere> dragoneatter67: no, each self interpret just also does the narcissist check
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14:11:21 <b_jonas> Question. Does the following Thue-like string replacement esolang have a name? The program has a starting string state and an infinitely looping sequence of fixed substring search and replaces. The instructions are executed in sequence, they always find the first match in the state string and replace just that one match, and if no match is found you get undefined behavior. This means the length of the
14:11:27 <b_jonas> state will always grow by a constant in each loop iteration, and you effectively program this by having an instruction that appends trailing junk to the string to ensure that the other instructions always match.
14:11:59 <esolangs> [[Tetrahedron]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178989&oldid=177700 * Cleverxia * (+54) yes, children, I'm back
14:12:07 <ais523> b_jonas: there are lots of esolangs that do that sort of thing but I don't think I've ever seen that exact combination
14:12:09 <b_jonas> I guess that's kind of a boring wasteful subset of 1.1
14:12:59 <ais523> it isn't a refinement of Thupit due to the "every rule must always match at the point where it appears"
14:13:03 <ais523> in fact I'm not even sure it's TC
14:13:25 <ais523> if you already know the search string will be there exactly once, how do you do a conditional?
14:14:04 <b_jonas> ais523: the trailing part of the string state will be junk, so your instructions match there if the conditional should skip
14:14:34 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, first match
14:14:42 <ais523> for some reason I thought the requirement was to have exactly one match rather than at least one
14:17:11 <b_jonas> int-e: re https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-insane-fini.jpg , how many different shapes is this trying to deliver to the hub at the same time?
14:18:20 <Yayimhere> dragoneater67: no, each self interpret just also does the narcissist check (I resent this since I think I dont think you saw it cuz it didnt tag properly
14:18:34 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178990&oldid=178946 * Cleverxia * (+609)
14:19:08 <int-e> b_jonas: the game has 2 randomized shapes, one without crystals and one with crystals. So you get two different MAMs. I have two copies of each.
14:20:07 <int-e> Also in this particular scenario, shapes have 5 slices instead of 4.
14:23:30 <int-e> (so each MAM has 5 stages)
14:23:31 <b_jonas> int-e: I thought there were 5 infinite series of randomized shapes, at least in the hardest mode
14:23:59 <b_jonas> I must have misunderstood something
14:24:13 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178991 * Cleverxia * (+116) Created page with "If i'm not getting it wrong, it gets up to (1,1,1) ~~~"
14:25:50 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178992&oldid=178991 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+248)
14:26:34 <int-e> Hmm. No, it has 2 more fixed operator shapes than the other scenarios: https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-700i.jpg ("insane") vs. https://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/shapez2-700.jpg ("regular") and https://shapez2.wiki.gg/wiki/Operator_Level#Requirements for the other two scenarios
14:31:11 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178993&oldid=178992 * Cleverxia * (+322)
14:32:03 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178994&oldid=178993 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+176)
14:37:46 <int-e> b_jonas: The only use of the number 5 that I can think of is the increased number of slices.
14:37:56 <int-e> I guess it's not really important :)
14:41:07 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178995&oldid=178994 * Cleverxia * (+49)
14:45:26 <esolangs> [[Rizzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178996&oldid=165866 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (-1) bro wth was that \ doin
14:47:30 <esolangs> [[User talk:Yayimhere/INFINITIES]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178997&oldid=178995 * Dragoneater67 * (+43) sign ur comments cleverxia
14:49:22 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=178998&oldid=178990 * Dragoneater67 * (-25) the esolang no longer exists
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14:54:30 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh on the off chance that you're wondering: there's no reason for the train terminals (to the far left and far right) to be flat like that; I could use 3 floors and fit them into 2 rows instead of 5. Which I'd do if I were serious about scaling things up further.
14:55:42 <int-e> (There *was* a reason: I used the same layout for an ad-hoc space where I made one-off factories. And it's *much* easier to do routing when you have some extra space. Also easier to remember what shape is delivered where.)
15:06:57 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=178999 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+2055) the "i'm getting too lazy" language
15:07:29 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179000&oldid=178999 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+4) formatting gone wrong
15:12:23 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179001&oldid=179000 * Cleverxia * (+15)
15:13:03 <korvo> dragoneater67, Yayimhere: I think FWoTD can't be defined. In particular, I'm not sure how to restrict the diagonal lemma in a Turing-complete setting so that it only generates one quine.
15:14:27 <Yayimhere> korvo hmmm. i hadn't thought of that. though there is not a restriction of "free output" here, so I dont know
15:14:59 <korvo> Yayimhere: Are you familiar with the idea that a program in a TC system can access its own source code?
15:15:20 <Yayimhere> korvo: no I had no heard that before
15:15:33 <korvo> What we actually mean is that, for any program in a TC system, there's an equivalent program which has access to a copy of its source code. It doesn't literally read its own memory.
15:16:07 <Yayimhere> well FWoTD doesnt remove all Quines, just one NON rotary one
15:16:28 <korvo> So if you have the ability to express Python-like lambdas, `lambda x: f(x)`, then there's always going to be the ability to augment that into `lambda x, source: print(source) or f(x)`
15:17:12 <korvo> dragoneater67: But then is it still TC?
15:17:44 <Yayimhere> like if you can only output a single character
15:18:12 <Yayimhere> like, minsky machine, with the command `E` which prints E. and then no other I/O
15:18:21 <korvo> Well, then what are you computing? Systems without I/O can only be TC in the sense that it's not decidable whether they halt; in order to talk about arbitrary effects, we do need to talk about the state of the system, including internal state.
15:20:00 <Yayimhere> in the case of `E` here, it could perhaps also replace every instance after it with increment of register 1, ju8st for example
15:20:24 <Yayimhere> but again, FWoTD does allow rotary quines
15:20:51 <dragoneater67> i dont understand how restricted i/o could hurt turing completeness
15:21:44 <korvo> Well, TC-ness is about being able to emit any computable sequence of symbols. It's inherently about output.
15:22:04 <korvo> (It's inherently about not halting, but Turing defined halting in terms of emitting symbols. See [[computable]] for details.)
15:23:55 <Yayimhere> I wonder what issues is with my construct above
15:24:26 <dragoneater67> if in brainfuck, . and , output into hidden append-only log, and theres an additional command called ? that just prints ?, is it turing-incomplete?
15:25:05 <Yayimhere> then you just look in the append only log I assume
15:25:30 <Yayimhere> then does it really count as output?
15:26:07 <korvo> dragoneater67: The inner behavior is still TC when we take that log into account. Your design is almost exactly like Turing's.
15:26:32 <dragoneater67> so we can have turing completeness with restricted i/o???
15:27:01 <korvo> dragoneater67: I think that you should pause for a moment. What does TC mean?
15:28:00 <dragoneater67> a finite state automaton hooked up to an infinite tape, or anything reducable to a finite state automaton hooked up to an infinite tape
15:28:03 <korvo> Maybe I shouldn't be Socratic. A TC system can encode any Turing machine, right? So that means that, for any Turing machine, the TC system has a program which faithfully emulates that machine.
15:29:16 <korvo> Don't worry about reducing your system to Turing machines. Either your system is computable, in which case it's reducible, or it's not computable. Computability is more important.
15:30:43 <int-e> "faithful" is vague here, isn't it. (The definitions I'm familiar with care about acceptance, rejection, or possibly just about termination vs. non-termination)
15:30:57 <korvo> So, for BF that only prints ?, there's still TC questions. The analogue of (Beeping) Busy Beaver is here: for a fixed size of programs, what's the largest program that prints finitely many ? There's also circular Halting: for a fixed program, how many ? does it print?
15:32:32 <korvo> int-e: I'm using it in the category-theoretic sense of "faithful functor", a categorified embedding. But yeah, we aren't actually putting in the work. Turing showed that acceptance and rejection can encapsulate all other questions of computability, and I guess we've been using that shortcut ever since.
15:32:43 <int-e> ("faithful" might imply a much more finely grained correspondance where you have to be able to effectively identify tapes, states, and execution steps)
15:33:46 <dragoneater67> i think that we can encode the tape into a large unary number, then output it using the ? instruction
15:34:00 <korvo> dragoneater67: I suppose that the insight I'm getting at is: either you're TC, so you can emit any computable sequence including sequences which code for the current program (quines), or you're not TC.
15:34:38 <Yayimhere> but then, what about the quineless thing that was talked about on sjmg(I think)'s talk page
15:35:08 <dragoneater67> i just realized that this also implies that we can encode the program's source code into a large unary prime and output it
15:36:03 <korvo> Hofstadter would say that it's still a self-rep. I don't know if he used the word "pseudoquine" but I could check.
15:36:10 <int-e> korvo: You realize that saying "in the category-theoretic sense" raises more questions than it answers ;-) (Apart from the extra level of obfuscation (subjective), it really doesn't say wht observables of TMs you care about, which was the point I was trying to make.)
15:36:12 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179002&oldid=178979 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+63) /* Properties */
15:36:21 <ais523> korvo: I would say "encode" rather than "emit" – languages can be TC without having any reasonable form of output
15:36:43 <Yayimhere> I changed the definition for it to be a little more precise of the type of quine
15:36:57 <ais523> but they have to be able to somehow internally represent any structure, which can be used as an output substitute but might be hard to decode
15:37:19 <korvo> int-e: Oh, sorry. In category theory, we can only identify up to isomorphism; if two TMs have isomorphic behavior then they might as well be a single object. I don't really care about which notion of isomorphism we're using though; it can be uncomputable.
15:37:31 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179003&oldid=179002 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+27) /* Properties */
15:37:52 <Yayimhere> specifically to standard terminal out, not in program mmemory
15:38:09 <korvo> ais523: Right, we have to be able to slice open the egg and see what was developing. And the insides cannot be too organized or else they can be interpreted like syntax, defeating Rice's theorem.
15:38:24 <int-e> korvo: You're still making the observables implicit!
15:38:41 <int-e> Anyway, I'll relent.
15:39:05 <Yayimhere> this was what I'd call an interesting conversation
15:39:12 <korvo> int-e: It's all good. I think that your question's well-motivated. But isn't a TM just a set-theoretic object? Like, isn't it a tuple?
15:40:51 <korvo> ...Sorry, I realize that I'm just making you invent the observables that you care about. I think we can care about Turing's observables for now. The issue is then, well, what of I/O? Turing was talking about emitting initial segments of computable binary sequences.
15:41:15 <korvo> Yayimhere: What do you think about the diagonal lemma?
15:42:04 <int-e> A TM can be seen through many lenses: 1) A typle of states and symboles and transitions etc. 2) A function from starting configuration to execution traces (streams of configurations) 2) Partial functions from initial configuration (or some import encoding it) to a final configuration (or decoded output) 3) same, but specifically only look at whether the final state is an accepting state or not.
15:42:39 <int-e> This doesn't change just because you're using category theory.
15:42:46 <Yayimhere> korvo: i have not heard of it, but I will look it up
15:42:55 <int-e> Except that 1) would become very awkard :P
15:44:10 <dragoneater67> the idea i always had about TMs is that arbitrary i/o is unneccessary if everything can be encoded in the program's internal state
15:44:11 <korvo> Yep. We do get another lens, though: 4) a computational universe or Turing category: a category with N where every object can be encoded and decoded into N. It's similar to (2) but arrows are computable rather than partial; instead of getting stuck they can "run" forever.
15:47:38 <int-e> korvo: That helps flesh out the picture.
15:48:06 <int-e> (My list could never have been exhaustive, of course.)
15:48:30 <korvo> int-e: Here's a taste of the power of (4). In a computable universe, for any object C, there's a total isomorphism N → C; this is the coding of C in N. Also the universe is Cartesian closed. So there's a total isomorphism N → [N, N].
15:49:13 <int-e> Yeah I can map that back to what I know about recursive and partial recursive functions.
15:49:14 <Yayimhere> but, korvo, do you think my definition of a quine works better now?
15:49:56 <korvo> An object Y has the fixed-point property when for all t : Y → Y there exists y : Y s.t. t(y) = y; that is, all endomorphisms on Y have fixed points. Then, because isomorphisms are surjections, the code N → [N, N] has the fixed-point property. That's Kleene's second recursion theorem, also called Rogers' fixed point, and it is usually way nastier to prove.
15:50:47 <int-e> (Tangentially... maybe I should configure my client to ask for confirmation whenever I type ":P". I wonder whether it can even do that.)
15:51:24 <korvo> Yayimhere: Not really. I think that you haven't quite approached what I mentioned earlier: the diagonal lemma in a TC system makes it so that any program can have a copy of its own source code, so it's hard to imagine a TC system that forbids quines. (If there were no quines then we could add exactly one quine, as you know.)
15:55:01 <korvo> It's okay to not have a solution for this. It's also okay to come up with something extremely clever which I don't accept at first. I do think that this is a good example of why we can't ignore complexity theory when designing languages.
15:55:41 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179004&oldid=179003 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+25)
15:55:50 <korvo> (It's also an excellent example of why we should implement languages as we design them. If you had a private Python script implementing a solution then you could at least test the attempts that people make.)
15:57:26 <Yayimhere> at this point I am still a little confused on how, even if it is allowed for the program to be in memory, just not the terminal, it still is impossible
15:57:50 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179005&oldid=179004 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-28) /* Properties */
15:58:08 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179006&oldid=179005 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Properties */
15:59:17 <korvo> Yayimhere: I don't want to just quote myself, but I think I put it well on [[self-reproducing object]]. "Specifically, for any legal syntax fragment Q which is open on a single variable, there is a closed fragment Q("Q") which applies that fragment to its own quotation. Applying the diagonal lemma in this fashion is called quining."
16:00:16 <korvo> So you have to attack one of those premises: either it's not legal to have open programs somehow (hard!) or quotation somehow can't quote all programs (harder!)
16:00:40 <korvo> Like, the difference between `lambda x: 42` and `(lambda x: 42)(5)`. The former is open and the latter is closed.
16:00:56 <korvo> ...No, wait, that's wrong. Sorry.
16:01:09 <korvo> The difference between `x` and `lambda x: x`. The former is open and the latter is closed.
16:01:19 <korvo> Sorry, I'm clearly still asleep.
16:01:44 <korvo> ...No, that's wrong too. Fuck. I should eat breakfast.
16:02:20 <Yayimhere> oh wow you haven't? damn. yea, dont let me be a distraction from eating
16:03:12 <int-e> x is open (has a free variable). \x. x is closed (has no free variables)
16:04:00 <Yayimhere> anyways, I removed the Turing Complete requirement
16:05:08 <Yayimhere> (it is hard to ensure while designing anyway)
16:07:21 <korvo> Yayimhere: Yes. What I think you'll eventually find is that TC-ness is a natural barrier which happens to occur in lots of little systems when we apply them to the real world. Design your systems to solve real problems, numerical problems, geometric problems, combinatorial problems, and you'll find TC behavior.
16:08:53 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179007&oldid=179006 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+5) /* Properties */
16:09:22 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179008&oldid=179007 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+2) /* Properties */
16:10:03 <esolangs> [[Final Word Of The Day]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179009&oldid=179008 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-12) /* Properties */
16:11:06 <korvo> int-e: Trust no one, not even me. >:3
16:15:09 <korvo> dragoneater67: Yes! And the evil witch who brought it to me was so nice. She was cackling the entire time and saying that it would change my life!
16:15:59 <int-e> korvo: Eh, I'm no stranger to the compounding effect of confusion.
16:16:37 <int-e> (Get one thing wrong, doubt everything.)
16:16:44 <korvo> int-e: If I'm wrong the first time, I'm probably still wrong the second time. Like, that's a track record of proven performance.
16:17:29 <int-e> the gamer term is tilting :)
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16:35:58 <Yayimhere> me myself have set dragon eater upon a task, and have been doing nothing but giving directions(and observing)
16:36:15 <Yayimhere> or I guess that is before the little discussion we had above
16:37:49 <Yayimhere> I saw you Mhm! language, I like it
16:37:55 <Yayimhere> though it still slightly confuses me
16:38:23 <aadenboy> I threw it together in one (half) school day
16:38:33 <Yayimhere> coould have a bit of a cleaner definition, but otherwise its good(I assume some of the weirdness is because its an April fools joke)
16:39:15 <aadenboy> it was definitely not extremely thought out (because it was originally an april fools joke)
16:39:33 <esolangs> [[User:Yayimhere]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179010&oldid=178972 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+42) /* esolangs */
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16:40:06 <Yayimhere> if you'd be ok with it I'd like to make the article a little clearer.
16:40:22 <Yayimhere> (I know the be bold with editing thing but oh well)
16:44:38 <aadenboy> expanding the comments in the A+B program
16:45:05 <Yayimhere> im quite surprised ive caught you for once in a place where our time zones lime up lol
16:46:04 <aadenboy> I just haven't been logging on frequently lol
16:46:49 <Yayimhere> me neither(but thats because I left the community for a bit and then came back)
16:47:21 <korvo> You're doing fine. There are some folks who take multi-year breaks between editing sessions.
16:48:08 <Yayimhere> (i didnt intend it to seem like I was disappointed in myself for it or anything likee that)
16:52:58 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179011&oldid=178891 * Aadenboy * (+663) /* A+B Problem */
16:54:01 <aadenboy> Mhm!'s irreversable state reminds me of Countable
16:56:10 <Yayimhere> you recent languages seem like just a chain from iterate lol
16:57:16 <Yayimhere> its kinda similair to Do Minsky which happened a while ago
16:57:54 <Yayimhere> and filled up practically my whole interview with Daniel temkin lol
16:58:28 <aadenboy> been wanting to ask how that worked
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16:59:44 <Yayimhere> I just emailed him, and then he interview over email
16:59:57 <Yayimhere> he gives like he questions in lil' groups
17:01:04 <Yayimhere> i was so very surprised when he said yes
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17:17:04 <Yayimhere> btw aadenboy, do you want to do the same challeneg as dragoneater?
17:17:21 <aadenboy> I'm good, I'm working on other stuff atm
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18:34:08 <Yayimhere> i find it interesting how sometimes IRC will show the quit message but not the join message
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18:37:39 <dragoneater68> im not on my main dragoneater67 acc bc its taken by my laptop
18:37:50 <FireFly> Yayimhere: depends on the client.. both get sent by server (join & quit I mean)
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18:38:49 <FireFly> the joins and quits can get noisy in some channels, so some clients have (more or less smart) filters and settings to filter them out
18:39:05 <FireFly> I'm not sure what the current webchat does really
18:40:04 <Yayimhere> i srsly dont know that much 'bout IRC whatsoever
18:40:22 <somefan> i used libera, when users join and quit with no say, the join/quit messages cancel out i think
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18:40:49 <Yayimhere> I know, but I mean, I know nothing about clients, the inner workings, ect.
18:41:27 <somefan> i'm currently reading the irc client protocol (rfc 2812)
18:42:08 <somefan> i'm using it to build my own client, it's exhaustive, but it may help with learning the internals
18:42:20 <FireFly> I use weechat, works well enough for me
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18:43:19 <Yayimhere> its just the same as having to reload discord every other second for some reason
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18:46:40 <ais523> dragoneater81: that's tricky to do in a generalised way because the Collatz conjecture is very close to being Turing-complete on its own
18:46:58 <Yayimhere> idk if we are talking 'bout the same ting
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18:48:00 <ais523> Yayimhere: the original collatz function halves even numbers and calculates 3n+1 for odd numbers
18:48:29 <ais523> and the conjecture is that if you iterate it, it reaches 1 from any positive integer
18:49:18 <dragoneater68> lets say that we have an unbounded nonnegative integer accumulator A
18:49:35 <ais523> if you replace "odd" and "even" by values modulo a number other than 2, and allow arbitrary scale factors (the original Collatz function uses ½ and 3 as the scale factors), it's Turing-complete
18:49:54 <dragoneater68> the program runs in an implicit infinite loop (e.g. when end is reached, it loops back to start)
18:49:55 <ais523> the specific choie of numbers ½n+0 and 3n+1 aren't known to be Turing-complete, though
18:50:20 <ais523> the addition isn't needed for TCness, either, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tip is TC using just the multiplication
18:51:18 <ais523> and another interesting special case is when all the scale factors are the same (and only the additive factor changes), this one isn't known to be TC but appears in multiple unsolved problems
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18:52:23 <ais523> e.g. the Hydra/Antihydra problem maps even n to 1½n and odd n to 1½n-½, and asks whether you ever end up with an extreme bias in odd versus even results (twice as many of one as the other)
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18:52:37 <ais523> it really seems like it shouldn't but it is extremely hard to prove this
18:55:02 <b_jonas> oh, so in that set of Collatz functions, you allow the program to give as many different scaling factors as your modulus?
18:55:41 <ais523> b_jonas: in traditional generalized Collatz and Tip, you can have a different scale factor for every value of the modulus, yes
18:55:55 <ais523> e.g. ½ and 3 in the original Collatz function
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18:56:41 <ais523> I use "consistent Collatz" as a name for the version where all the scale factors are the same (this is the version that https://esolangs.org/wiki/Feed_the_Chaos implements)
18:57:07 <Yayimhere> wbu collatz where its always a value under one for the first value?
18:57:20 <Yayimhere> in other words it always divides(by an integer)
18:57:21 <ais523> consistent Collatz can be simulated in quasilinear time despite the size of the numbers growing exponentially
18:57:59 <ais523> Yayimhere: I have to be careful talking about this, because I studied it for languages like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Conedy but I think I screwed up / got confused, so my memories about how this works are based on incorrect data
18:59:25 <ais523> in general I am surprisingly bad at reasoning about this sort of "inverted Collatz" where you are using values between 0 and 1 and scaling based on the interval, rather than using integers and scaling based on the modulus
19:00:27 <int-e> . o O ( arithmetic coding vs range coding )
19:00:44 <ais523> int-e: huh, that does seem very related
19:01:25 <Yayimhere> is there a "branchless" way to define generalized collatz btw? or atleast is one known
19:01:55 <b_jonas> I had heard that some generalizations of Collatz are computationally hard, but without explanation, and this generalization is a nice explanation for thiat
19:02:14 <ais523> Yayimhere: you need something conditional-like but it can be a branchless conditional
19:02:33 <ais523> e.g. a Tip interpreter usually isn't branchy at all, it just takes the modulus, indexes into an array, and multiplies
19:02:44 <ais523> but array indexing is basically a form of branchless conditional
19:02:45 <int-e> ais523: oh there is a connection there at a conceptual level; I just don't see that it's useful if your goal is to tackle the Collatz type conjectures
19:02:50 <b_jonas> specifically I heard this as explanation for why eg. Turing-machines with very few states and symbols can have hard to predict behavior
19:03:00 <ais523> int-e: my goal is more to work out Conedy's computational class
19:04:14 <ais523> I would describe what the language does as follows: you have a working number which is a bounded rational (going out of bounds = halt), you can jump based on whether it is greater than or less than a fixed rational, you can also add, subtract, multiply by or divide by a constant
19:04:33 <ais523> and I originally assumed this was analogous to generalized Collatz and then realised that it wasn't
19:04:37 <ais523> because you can't do a modulo test
19:06:18 <korvo> dragoneater67: I found catgirl to be quite nice too.
19:08:09 <b_jonas> that's a nice natural-sounding description
19:08:32 <int-e> ais523: ah you made the nets closed. awkward
19:08:55 <int-e> (but eh, several things are awkward compared to Trajedy)
19:10:26 <aadenboy> dragoneater67: I'm using an older KVIrc client
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19:21:03 <ais523> int-e: I don't even think closedness versus openness matters here? if hitting a net is closed, missing it is open
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19:23:03 <int-e> ais523: Hmm, maybe. But this prevents you from making a closed diagonal line of nets, for example, the way you can with mirrors in Trajedy. But yeah maybe you don't have to.
19:29:45 <int-e> I see that closedness makes defining things easier; to make open nets work, you'd have to do the ray intersection test with the open net, but then still use the closed one for finding the point of collision and determining the new trajectory.
19:34:37 <somefan> i meant gamja, not libera, the irc server itself. libera also has kiwi as a web client, but i'm not sure how that differs
19:34:57 <Yayimhere> I think ive made an interesting idea for a lang
19:36:10 <Yayimhere> in which every cell holds a reference to a subsection of the whole tape(which ofcourse itself nests, and so on)
19:36:24 <Yayimhere> and then you'd be able to change which section, making very non local changes
19:36:33 <Yayimhere> and you'd be able to nest into the cell ofc
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20:33:59 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nightcat47853456759 * New user account
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22:29:58 <Sgeo> Some time ago someone here wrote some Burroughs E101 code. I should probably figure out where, since I've resumed writing my E101 emulator
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01:05:39 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aidanace3 * New user account
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01:13:40 <Sgeo> int-e and sorear both wrote sorter things for E101 but the debian pastebin expired. I saved sorear's
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01:39:41 <Sgeo> ...or maybe it was pseudocode, sorry.
01:39:44 <Sgeo> I don't remember
01:40:05 <int-e> it's likely lost anyway
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02:52:17 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179012&oldid=178998 * PrySigneToFry * (+257)
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04:03:17 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179013&oldid=179001 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+2633) update :DDD
04:10:43 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179014&oldid=179013 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+102) i forgor the categories and some stuff
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04:38:09 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179015&oldid=179014 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+650) misclick
04:39:03 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179016&oldid=179015 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+18) categories gone wrong
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05:10:17 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179017&oldid=99659 * Tpaefawzen * (-38) /* External resources */ url updated
05:22:26 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179018&oldid=179017 * Tpaefawzen * (+475) Two levels of specs
05:32:36 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179019&oldid=179018 * Tpaefawzen * (+29) /* Extensions */ +1
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06:03:24 <ais523> much the same as yesterday I think
06:07:15 <esolangs> [[The Second Coming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179020&oldid=178579 * PrySigneToFry * (+88)
06:10:54 <Yayimhere> me myself am fine, just a little sleepy
06:24:21 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * RedboiVR * New user account
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07:34:02 <esolangs> [[+!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179021&oldid=147002 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-2) remove extra newlines at the start of the page
07:34:11 <esolangs> [[+!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179022&oldid=179021 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-1)
07:42:08 <esolangs> [[Minus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179023&oldid=179019 * Tpaefawzen * (+167) /* Basics */
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09:21:57 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179024&oldid=178890 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+155) /* Negative indexed cells? */
09:23:31 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179025&oldid=179024 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Negative indexed cells? */
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09:44:56 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179026&oldid=179012 * Cleverxia * (+1575) /* math */
09:46:32 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179027&oldid=179026 * Cleverxia * (+128) /* math.googology */
09:54:03 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179028&oldid=178975 * Cleverxia * (+215) /* Commands */ fix a lot of bugs to interpret it, the most important being mixing postfix and infix
09:56:31 <esolangs> [[Mathlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179029&oldid=179028 * Cleverxia * (+121) /* Examples */
10:21:48 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179030&oldid=176275 * None1 * (-523) Change spec of whole language, the older one cease to exist
10:23:54 <esolangs> [[Functionable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179031&oldid=178868 * PKMN Trainer * (+3) /* Hello World */
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12:40:26 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179032&oldid=178951 * StavWasPlayZ * (+2481)
12:41:24 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179033&oldid=179032 * StavWasPlayZ * (+1)
12:42:14 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179034&oldid=179033 * StavWasPlayZ * (+0)
12:44:35 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179035&oldid=179034 * StavWasPlayZ * (-134)
12:45:00 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179036&oldid=179035 * StavWasPlayZ * (-52)
12:48:56 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179037&oldid=179036 * StavWasPlayZ * (+109)
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13:13:20 <esolangs> [[User:None1/InDev]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179038&oldid=179030 * None1 * (+310)
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13:57:40 <int-e> b_jonas: Oh the riscv PR got merged without further ado. Yay.
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14:18:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, but we have to wait until it propagates from the source into the downloadable documents
14:30:35 <b_jonas> this reminds me of https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383 , though that turned out to be a bug in the tool used for format conversion (texinfo)
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15:54:27 <esolangs> [[Cattaratus]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179039 * RixTheTyrunt * (+2315) Created page with "{{Lowercase}}{{WIP}}{{Stub}} {{infobox proglang | name=cattaratus | author=[[User:RixTheTyrunt]] | year=[[:Category:2026|2026]] | class=Unknown | dimensions=[[:Category:Two-dimensional languages|Two-dimensional]] }} '''cattaratus''' is a two dimensional esoteric
16:13:51 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179040&oldid=179025 * Aadenboy * (+357)
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16:55:12 <esolangs> [[Talk:Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179041&oldid=179040 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+53) /* Negative indexed cells? */
16:58:07 <esolangs> [[Codesh ()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179042&oldid=179037 * StavWasPlayZ * (+222)
17:00:38 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179043&oldid=179011 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+118) I did a rewrite to make the memory space a little more intuitive/easy to understand, feel free to correct any mistakes. Note that I "flipped" the tape, since it makes sense because the positive indexed cells cant be indexed
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17:06:12 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179044&oldid=179043 * Aadenboy * (-13) flipping these
17:07:45 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179045&oldid=179044 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+33) /* Memory */
17:08:23 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179046&oldid=179045 * Aadenboy * (+11) 0 indexed
17:09:00 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179047&oldid=179046 * Aadenboy * (-1) forgot this
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17:21:12 <esolangs> [[Mhm!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179048&oldid=179047 * Aadenboy * (-258) /* A+B Problem */ redid the program
17:21:32 <esolangs> [[A+B Problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179049&oldid=178840 * Aadenboy * (+405) /* Mhm! */ update this
17:22:18 <esolangs> [[User:Aadenboy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179050&oldid=178838 * Aadenboy * (-105) update Mhm! program
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17:46:58 <Yayimhere> (me myself am good, the creative juices are flowing well)
17:48:35 <korvo> Yet another respected computer scientist has lost their mind to a chatbot: https://lobste.rs/s/063ldo/why_lean
17:49:05 <Yayimhere> lost their mind in what sense of the expression
17:50:44 <korvo> In terms of Hofstadter minds, I mean that they partially exported their cognition to the chatbot. The chatbot isn't a deterministic tool or reliable physical artifact, so the export is never complete; the resulting mind can't perceive that a huge bite has been taken out of it.
17:51:35 <korvo> Think of a glove. When you put on the glove, for a few minutes, everything feels strange to your fingers. But eventually you adapt and you can treat the glove as if it were your actual hand, because the signals transmitted to your brain are now glove-encoded instead of bare-hand-encoded.
17:51:57 <korvo> And then when you take it off, your brain adjusts again. We've done experiments replicating this effect for vision, hearing, and a few other senses.
17:53:12 <korvo> Anyway, this guy's one of the authors of Lean. I think Lean sucks, but that's just my personal opinion. Here, he says a lot of wrong and misleading things about Lean in order to promote it. That seems normal for a marketer or intern, but he's a senior researcher and one of the original authors!
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17:53:57 <Yayimhere> ive never heard of lean myself, but I dont suspect it being worth the time to look into
17:54:34 <korvo> You should definitely take a look so that you can recognize its syntax. However, if you actually want to *use* it, I would politely suggest that you try Idris 2 instead; Idris is a much simpler language with roughly the same quality of tooling.
17:55:12 <Yayimhere> and what did you think of my... clarification? rewrite? who knows
17:55:33 <aadenboy> I'm good! and your clarification was helpful
17:55:39 <aadenboy> def good choice to flip the tape around
17:56:00 <Yayimhere> though perhaps the choice of symbols will be a little strange now
17:56:22 <Yayimhere> also, I assume unusable cells cannot be nested into
17:56:33 <aadenboy> I flipped the commands around so they make sense too
17:57:13 <Yayimhere> (right now im trying to look into Stratego/XT, which is taking a bit of time cuz im getting distracted)
17:58:28 <Yayimhere> a software transformations language thing
17:58:43 <Yayimhere> I found out it existed while trying to find a GPL that is based on string rewriting
18:00:45 <Yayimhere> anyways, I was interested in your idea of memory either being recursive, or unusable
18:00:50 <korvo> What does "based on" mean? Like, I could say Python is a string-rewriter, in the sense that there are extremely tortured rules with transitions like `(lambda x: x + 1)(5)` -> `6`.
18:01:20 <korvo> Most of the languages that you're going to find which *only* do string-rewriting are therefore going to be *meta* languages; they're languages for describing compilers, linters, type-checkers, etc.
18:01:24 <int-e> korvo: That first paragraph makes me cringe. And it leads *nowhere* (unless you vibe with vibes I guess. I don't.)
18:01:43 <esolangs> [[Adj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179051&oldid=178852 * Kaveh Yousefi * (+26) Amended an instance of cacography and supplemented the page category tag Implemented.
18:01:56 <Yayimhere> korvo: mainly focused around? the main paradigm? the thing it was designed to do? something around there
18:02:05 <Yayimhere> but yea, it does all seem like metalanguages in what I found
18:02:12 <int-e> I mean: rando I've never heard of had a "wow" reaction to an incoherent list of bullet points with no discernable connection between them. Color me impressed.
18:02:36 <int-e> (I /can/ fill in a connection. But the text doesn't provide one.)
18:02:53 <korvo> int-e: The absolute numbers make it worse. Opening Mathlib at the REPL takes like 3GiB of RAM and several minutes wait. Verifying all of Mathlib at the REPL supposedly takes *hours*. The "Lean implemented in Lean" compiler relies on 8KLoC of unproven C++ kernel.
18:03:33 <int-e> I'm glad we're not using dead languages.
18:03:43 <korvo> Yeah, nothing obscure there.
18:03:53 <Yayimhere> "Lean"ing on nothing you could say? /j
18:04:49 <int-e> korvo: Note that if I wasn't somewhat sympathetic to the cause I would not read any of the later stuff anyway.
18:05:03 <korvo> Yayimhere: Sure. So, the big reason that tree rewriting became more popular is that strings have no abstractive horizon. Like, imagine doing natural numbers with pure string rewriting. You could count in unary but that's inefficient. You could use binary but that would require extra rules for every operation to specify rules like carrying during addition.
18:05:58 <Yayimhere> korvo: yea. its not that surprising, really(and I'd assume strings arent that efficient over other data structures, both for manipulating and storing data)
18:06:04 <korvo> int-e: I'm not wholly disconnected from it either. I'm thinking about contributing a little to rpylean, an alternative kernel in RPython.
18:07:28 <Yayimhere> also, arent matrices kinda just restricted trees(since trees are also just nested arrays, right?)
18:07:47 <Yayimhere> I know this is kinda off topic but, oh well
18:07:51 <korvo> Yayimhere: There's a nice dovetail here. I think that, if you want to *use* a string-rewriting system today, you should use Metamath. If you really want to *invent* a new one then you need a good reason. For example, Zaddy's rationale is that I think I can figure out ACE-matching, which is kind of an open problem.
18:08:28 <Yayimhere> I think I'll start a reading list, actually
18:08:29 <korvo> Matrices are linear transformations! They're not at all trees. We only write them like that for traditional reasons. The higher-dimensional version of a matrix is a tensor.
18:16:04 <korvo> Yayimhere: You're really close to a deep insight, BTW. Like, everything we've been talking about is just pencil-and-paper, yeah? You could just draw trees on paper, or use matrix notation on paper, or write out strings on paper.
18:16:44 <korvo> Turing proved that we can only recognize finitely many distinct symbols on a finite piece of paper. Every piece of paper *is* a finite string.
18:16:53 <korvo> So *all* computation, from the beginning, was string rewriting.
18:17:34 <Yayimhere> huh. well then, maybe I should go look at a peice of paper a little more
18:17:50 <korvo> Also, how do you draw a tree? Well, you draw some symbols for nodes and some symbols for arrows, and you have to arrange the arrows with whitespace so that they point to the right nodes. So your string has a *dimensionality* to it, constraining how you can associate symbols to each other.
18:22:31 <ais523> korvo: fwiw I think the "correct" way to do integers in a string-rewriting language is for the program to see them as unary and the implementation to optimise them
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18:31:00 <korvo> ais523: Yeah, perhaps. Another decent approach is to only allow schematic rewriting: every rewriting rule is an axiom schema rather than a single concrete axiom. So `Sx + y` -> `S(x + y)` holds for all syntactic x and y. Metamath requires type annotations to make this work in practice.
18:31:33 <korvo> "type" is maybe the wrong word for a syntax class, but it's the one we've got.
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19:35:27 <b_jonas> ais523: it depends on what you want. if you want to use the esolang to run programs and especially readable programs then that makes sense. but if you want to prove that the language itself is capable of better performance then you might implement the numbers in binary (or some higher radix) in the string language. you can still have an optional optimized version in the emulator even in that case
19:35:33 <b_jonas> (optional because sometimes you want to turn the optimization on to test that your in-language implementation works correctly).
19:35:55 <ais523> I admit I'm something of a believer in the "sufficiently smart compiler" point of view
19:36:11 <ais523> especially when it comes to esolangs, which frequently can manage an O(n) speedup with some fairly simple optimisations
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19:42:31 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I was mostly thinking not of a smart compiler, but a library that implements arithmetic, with two implementations, one in the esolang and one in the emulator that uses the non-esoteric host's arithmetic capabilities
19:43:16 <ais523> arithmetic in INTERCAL generally requires a loop, and INTERCAL is very hard to optimise across statements due to things like computed COME FROM
19:43:46 <ais523> so in practice having hardcoded arithmetic subroutines gives you a lot of efficiency over trying to optimise ones written directly in iNTERCAL
19:43:49 <b_jonas> obviously this only applies to some esolangs
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20:07:42 <esolangs> [[Danicb]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179052&oldid=139524 * Squidmanescape * (+36) I really should implement this.
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00:10:15 <b_jonas> would sigaltstack be able to instruct the operating system to restore some (arch-dependent) registers other than just the stack pointer to values saved at the time of the sigaltstack call? or would that break more portable uses of sigaltstack?
00:11:11 <b_jonas> you could imagine the register that stores the pointer to the thread-specific values table if you wish
00:12:21 <b_jonas> I don't mean the kernel would just look at the value of that register at the time when you call sigaltstack but that the program would fill that value in explicitly in the struct stack_t value that it passes to the sigaltstack call
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00:40:39 <b_jonas> I'm asking because the RISC-V ABI document, and it says three of the general-purpose registers are reserved to be used as stack pointer, global pointer, and per-thread pointer respectively, and these have to hold valid values at all times because signal handlers can rely on them. Presumably you can use sigaltstack to unreserve the stack pointer, but I wonder if you could unreserve the other two as well.
00:40:45 <b_jonas> There are 31 general-purpose registers in this arch, and they roughly correspond to how the 16 general-purpose registers are used in x86: there are separate floating-point registers if the CPU supports floating point, and separate vector registers if vector instructions are supported, so these usually store scalar integer values. 32 or 64 bit wide depending on whether this is the 32-bit or 64-bit RISC-V
00:40:51 <b_jonas> architecture -- the two are separate in userland, just like x86_32 and x86_64.
00:44:31 <b_jonas> So for some optimized hand-written inner loops, unreserving all three of those registers could be useful, even if you have to restore them outside of the inner loop because functions compiled normally can rely on them of course.
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01:11:49 <zzo38> I think I had mentioned "communist hands" in Texas Hold'em poker many years ago, but now I made up a way to make points for a poker hand with flower card (although maybe someone will want to make changes to it), so we can make the flower communist hands.
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01:59:35 <b_jonas> wait, why doesn't this ABI have a stack redzone? it was defined late enough that the technique was known
02:00:25 <b_jonas> and the instruction set can use signed immediate offsets encoded into load/store instructions so you can address below the stack pointer too
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04:24:02 <esolangs> [[Talk:ZeroStack2D]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179053&oldid=176624 * NeurosamaLover * (+212) /* Research links */ new section
04:25:58 <esolangs> [[Talk:ZeroGrid2D]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179054 * NeurosamaLover * (+210) Created page with "== Research links == Add links to external blogs, discussions, or research pages about this language here. --~~~~"
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05:37:21 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179055 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+904) Created page with "'''(3+!+)%!+''' is a Turing-incomplete esolang based on [[Wikipedia:Collatz conjecture|Collatz conjecture]] made by [[User:Dragoneater67]] to show that [[Turing-complete]]ness is not neccessary for the halting problem to be undecidable. == Overview == Ther
05:38:49 <esolangs> [[User:Dragoneater67]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179056&oldid=178980 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+103) /* but really... */
06:03:10 <esolangs> [[Abacus Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179057&oldid=174602 * Timm * (+13)
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06:12:26 <Yayimhere> dragoneater67: have you made any progress on the FWoTD thing?
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07:05:56 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179058&oldid=179055 * Cleverxia * (+28) category
07:07:39 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179059&oldid=179058 * Cleverxia * (+1) fix example
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07:53:29 <esolangs> [[Septem Lingua]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179060&oldid=179027 * Cleverxia * (+1166)
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07:59:22 <esolangs> [[Talk:(3+!+)%!+]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179061 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+188) Created page with "im not doubting it, but it'd be nice to see a full proof that its not TC. --~~~~"
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10:53:50 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179062&oldid=179059 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-1) /* Collatz conjecture */
10:54:11 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179063&oldid=179062 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+48) /* Overview */
10:54:37 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179064&oldid=179063 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-28)
10:56:34 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179065&oldid=179064 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+1) /* Collatz conjecture */ the extra bracket is needed, cuz it also loops after even check
10:58:12 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179066&oldid=179065 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+32) /* Examples */
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11:32:06 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179067&oldid=179066 * Dragoneater67mobile * (+0) /* Collatz conjecture */
11:32:55 <esolangs> [[(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179068&oldid=179067 * Dragoneater67mobile * (-1) /* Looping counter */ not needed because theres an implicit loop
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11:41:22 <esolangs> [[Here's Some Predefined Stuff. Now Go Invent Everything Else]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179069&oldid=179016 * ZachMadeAnAltBecauseHeLostThePassword * (+0) better-machine is wrong
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13:55:10 <esolangs> [[Talk:(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179070&oldid=179061 * Mrtli08 * (+175)
13:57:01 <esolangs> [[Talk:Abacus Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179071 * Mrtli08 * (+149) Created page with "If this is still being developed i think we need turingcus computer --~~~~"
14:12:06 <esolangs> [[Turingcus Computer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179072 * Mrtli08 * (+895) Created page with "Turingcus Computer is a improved version of [[Abacus Computer]] with new features. Also its no longer a [[OISC]] with the INT instruction. ===Default values=== * R0 = 0 * R1 = 1 * RN = -1 * RS = 0 (Starting value) * IP = 0 (default value, increases for every
14:13:04 <esolangs> [[User:Mrtli08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179073&oldid=178588 * Mrtli08 * (+76)
14:14:49 <esolangs> [[User:Mrtli08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179074&oldid=179073 * Mrtli08 * (+129)
14:14:55 <esolangs> [[User:Mrtli08]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179075&oldid=179074 * Mrtli08 * (+5)
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15:51:17 <esolangs> [[Talk:(3+!+)%!+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179076&oldid=179070 * Yayimhere2(school) * (+268)
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21:58:04 <esolangs> [[1r]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179077 * Squidmanescape * (+5580) There you go.
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21:59:42 <esolangs> [[1r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179078&oldid=179077 * Squidmanescape * (+6) /* Encountering Non-Whitespace */
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22:49:32 <esolangs> [[Pathana/Crawling Chaos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=179079 * Squidmanescape * (+17600) Created page with "The Crawling Chaos series of integers is an important part of Pathana. It is ideally generated by taking the specific provided rendition of H. P. Lovecraft's [https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/crc.aspx The Crawling Chaos] and ana
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05:25:10 <esolangs> [[1r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179080&oldid=179078 * Squidmanescape * (+4) /* Encountering Non-Whitespace */ I just realized that if it checks *before* the next increment, then it doesn't actually touch 9 new cells in the way I was envisioning.
05:26:38 <esolangs> [[1r]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179081&oldid=179080 * Squidmanescape * (+121) /* Movement */
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07:26:52 <esolangs> [[Haczyk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=179082&oldid=143654 * Yayimhere2(school) * (-849) /* Not Turing-Complete */ looping conditionally can be a sufficient mechanism for turing completeness(see brainf*). for the first condition, eh? I dont think it has to, but maybe it does idk. but this isn't sufficient proof. the conditions for turin g completeness is i
08:32:38 <esolangs> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lim Soon Yi 3k * New user account