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00:13:12 <oerjan> Malbolge seems awfully resistant to attempts to remove its size limitations. :(
00:15:21 <oerjan> At least without totally breaking backwards compatibility.
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00:29:46 <ihope> So does the platform for our operating system exist yet?
01:06:48 <SimonRC> "Wikipoedia -- Wikipedia for kids!"
01:07:14 <SimonRC> mayby my classical roots are mixed up :-S
01:11:36 <SimonRC> Some typesystems will allow the definition of the y-operator, too
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01:25:16 <ihope> That's all the recursion you need.
01:25:59 <ihope> If you want f x y = x (y f) y y (f y x), then f = fix (\b -> x (y b) y y (b y x)).
01:32:27 <CakeProphet> I've got a USABLE esolang, designed to be used in an actual application, that resemvles English, and looks weird.
01:33:26 <CakeProphet> but it doesn't have a myriad of special keywords.
01:33:27 <SimonRC> Quick, you must give it only linear types in order to make it more useless and esoteric!
01:33:55 * SimonRC wonders what would happen if you crossed "ORCS!" with "Ork". Both are OO.
01:34:07 <SimonRC> "ORCS!" is a lang for writing roguelikes.
01:34:21 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Oooooh no there isn't!
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01:35:26 <CakeProphet> but none of that, except "Thank you, good sir!" was a reserved keyword.
01:37:29 <SimonRC> What kind of bloody keyword is "Thank you, good sir!"?
01:38:00 <pikhq> What'd I miss, and what the hell is wrong with you?
01:38:30 <CakeProphet> well... You there, cat amy or may not be special syntax...
01:38:58 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: The class is "scribe", not "Scribe".
01:40:21 * pikhq thinks of a brilliantly insane idea. . .
01:40:53 <pikhq> Make a Brainfuck variant which makes use of every character which one can type on a standard US English keyboard.
01:41:10 <ihope> That would be printable ASCII.
01:41:22 * oerjan thinks of an even more brilliantly insane idea.
01:41:34 <oerjan> Make that a Chinese keyboard.
01:41:39 <ihope> And I have final exams tomorrow and it's bedtime. Bye-bye.
01:41:50 <SimonRC> oerjan: Have you seen a chinese keyboard
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01:41:57 <CakeProphet> hrm... and it apparently will be using list-like symbols.
01:42:26 <CakeProphet> but... not exactly.. like you can set objects as well as symbols, which has the effect of being in-place assignment.
01:47:19 <SimonRC> oerjan: http://www.fi.muni.cz/usr/wong/teaching/chinese/notes/node11.html
01:47:20 <pikhq> You could even make this Brainfuck++ include a couple of stacks. . . Forking. . . Two arrays. . .
01:47:24 <pikhq> God, that's just evil.
01:47:36 <SimonRC> THE kb HAS CHARACTER FRAGMENTS ON IT WHICH THE COMPUTER ASSEMBLES
01:48:18 <SimonRC> There ought to be a distributed-computing version of Brainfuck.
01:48:33 <SimonRC> It would be called "Clusterfuck"
01:48:42 <SimonRC> the OO version would be "OFuck"
01:48:47 <pikhq> The multiple-threaded Brainfuck version could probably be ran on a distributed computing system.
01:48:58 <SimonRC> and the unicode version "Fuck-U"
01:49:14 <SimonRC> pikhq: (that was just a joke about the names)
01:50:25 <pikhq> And, I assume, there'd be an Internet-supporting version called "GoFuck", and one that's introspective, called "Yourself". . .
01:50:34 <pikhq> And the combined version, "GoFuckYourself".
01:51:25 <SimonRC> If you add a command for turning off the computer, that would be "FuckOff"
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01:52:39 <oerjan> I will leave to others to mention the name of the web camera version
01:52:48 <CakeProphet> THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR THAT ESOLANG FACTORY
01:52:50 <pikhq> And a version combined with Malbolge. . .
01:53:01 <pikhq> Variant, you mean.
01:53:32 <CakeProphet> concurency, networking, oo, functional, extended control flow, etc
01:53:45 <SimonRC> oerjan: Actually I can't guess that one.
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01:55:40 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: it would be like OO COBOL. you would only see clear code when in your programming class, buit in the Real World, you would keep finding code that still had raw <>+_[]., in it.
01:55:57 <SimonRC> OST, that would what BFM would be like as a commercial language.
01:56:52 <SimonRC> If BF was extended into a commercial language.
01:56:58 <oerjan> ok then, it would obviously be FuckFace
01:57:01 <SimonRC> Yo0u know what real-world COBOL is like, right?
01:57:19 <SimonRC> oerjan: sigh. That is the one with interface definitions, surely?
01:57:53 <CakeProphet> I've never quite figured out the use of an interface -type-
01:57:58 <pikhq> Yes. . . We must engage in factoriness.
01:58:59 <CakeProphet> which inevitably means that I'll be the lucky one implementing it later...
01:59:17 <oerjan> this, however, would be a Fucktory.
02:00:21 <CakeProphet> I really like the space-delimits-both-functions-and-class-attributes syntax of conSTABLE
02:00:55 <CakeProphet> 2 + 2 gets the + method of the first two, and calls it on the second two... the parser can easily eliminate all ambiguity.
02:02:58 <oerjan> Is that a fact or wishful thinking.
02:03:20 <pikhq> I think it's a magical parser.
02:03:27 <CakeProphet> nah... as far as I can tell... the parser can't create ambiguity.
02:03:36 <CakeProphet> I've tried all sorts of situations... in my head anyways
02:03:40 <pikhq> Perhaps even an oracle machine?
02:04:30 <CakeProphet> the only restriction is that thee can't be default values for arguments and there can't be arbitrary numbers of arguments.
02:05:03 <CakeProphet> you can easily stuff a list of "arbitrary arguments" into the last parameter... which is essentially what most do.
02:10:47 * pikhq proposes that Fucktory support networking and file access. . .
02:16:48 <CakeProphet> hmmm... I'd rather do this with befunge actually...
02:17:07 <pikhq> Make it a superset of Dimenisfuck.
02:17:25 <pikhq> Add in parts of the Befunge command set.
02:17:50 <GregorR> I've written one of the most important pieces of software in history.
02:18:00 <CakeProphet> that would basically be like.... a rail-ish befungefuck
02:18:26 <pikhq> CakeProphet: A functional multithreaded befungefuck.
02:19:25 <CakeProphet> I still like befunge more than bf... it's FUN. It's a spatial system with a stack... that's just great.
02:19:31 * oerjan diagnoses GregorR with megalomania and gets out the straightjacket.
02:19:40 <pikhq> Dimensifuck with a stack.
02:19:44 <CakeProphet> like electric wiring... with like a weird stack.
02:19:50 <pikhq> Voila; you've got Funge.
02:20:03 <pikhq> Well, n-dimensional Funge.
02:20:25 <GregorR> oerjan: You don't understand.
02:20:29 <GregorR> oerjan: This is significant.
02:20:31 <CakeProphet> with network support, file access, and concurency.
02:20:35 <GregorR> The Order of Urinals emulator.
02:21:23 <oerjan> No no, I understand perfectly. I am here to help, after all. Now just put your arm in here...
02:22:01 <GregorR> pikhq: Given a number of arrival times and wee times for a number of men, and an arrangement of urinals, one can predict with almost 100% certainty which urinals each man will go to.
02:22:19 <GregorR> I'm trying to figure out if I can turn that into a rudimentary computer X-P
02:24:57 <SimonRC> CakeProphet: I agree about BF versus BF
02:27:35 * CakeProphet gets to work on that oracle machine pikhq seems to be baffled at.
02:28:38 <pikhq> What sort of oracle?
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02:40:23 * SimonRC lolololololols at the ST:TNG plot generator:
02:40:30 <SimonRC> "Whlist on leave Captain Picard starts de-aging rapidly when the Enterprise encounters some kind of spacetime rift thingy which is in fact Wesley's fault—as well as Q which pisses them about for fun and affects the entire ship, throws the ship thousands of light years off course, and depletes the shields to 5% while Wesley is precocious so Riker delivers a phaser blast, which means everything turns out okay, though Picard has had to deal with children.
02:40:37 <SimonRC> You could swear it was real.
02:40:38 <SimonRC> http://www.bargaintuan.com/sttngplotgen/
02:48:05 <GregorR> Oh come on ... this HAS to be TC :P
02:56:17 <SimonRC> "Imagine the heartaches / Of diplomatic attaches / When the wind detaches / Their false moustaches" :-)
03:10:05 <bsmntbombdood> Im thinking logfuck might not need dup to be turing complete
03:12:05 <CakeProphet> I usually don't worry about Turing completeness.... some of the more interesting languages out there are finite-state and cellular automatons.
03:14:31 <pikhq> Some cellular automatons are Turing complete.
03:14:46 <pikhq> The Game of Life and Wireworld are good examples.
03:15:29 <CakeProphet> well yeah... since they're not mutually exclusive terms.
03:15:35 <pikhq> (in both of them, a Turing-complete system has been designed. . . Life has a Turing machine, Wireworld has an OISC system (it's instruction is MOVE))
03:16:43 <GregorR> I'd still like OoU to be TC :P
03:16:52 <GregorR> I don't think it is, though ;)
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03:19:34 <GregorR> Unfortunately, I don't even really know where to start on writing a OoU program ...
03:19:59 <CakeProphet> well... it depends on how many urinals we're talking
03:20:21 <bsmntbombdood> I had to explain urinal ettiquette to a girl the other day
03:20:23 <GregorR> Any finite number in any sensible arrangement.
03:20:25 <CakeProphet> and hell, if something as rudementary as LIFE is Turing complete... I'd imagine OoU could be too.
03:20:42 <GregorR> It's programmed into every man.
03:20:49 <GregorR> And I determined these rules for my emulator:
03:20:56 <GregorR> 1) Farthest from any neighbor.
03:21:37 <bsmntbombdood> Farthest is not always the best, in a situation with lots of urinals
03:21:52 <GregorR> (Though I wrote it such that I could write men with different roles)
03:22:13 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: I could put a limit on farthest easily *shrugs*
03:22:43 <CakeProphet> The Shy Man, The Lazy Man, and the Claustophobic.
03:22:55 <CakeProphet> determines priority of which to achieve first. :D
03:23:28 <GregorR> I was thinking: Lazy (closest first), creepy (most neighbors, closest to neighbors), lonely (tries to be close, but still one urinal between)
03:24:58 <GregorR> However, I think I'd like to try to find TC with only the standard rules.
03:35:07 <CakeProphet> you could use each block of three urinals as morse code.
03:35:29 <CakeProphet> at the end of the program... each three urinals stands for a character.
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04:00:15 <GregorR> I think I need one more factor to make OoU TC ... wee schedules. Right now there's no capacity for looping.
04:12:15 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: yes it does
04:12:22 <SimonRC> quite simple once you understand it.
04:16:16 <GregorR> I think I can implement cat in this O_O
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04:28:17 * bsmntbombdood likes how SICP says that for,while loops are mere abstractions
04:30:12 <CakeProphet> GregorR, if your output is the data itself converted to characters... a NOP would be the cat program.
04:30:42 <CakeProphet> I envisioning it working a lot like a string-rewriting language... but without explicitly rewriting and with multiple symbols for each character
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05:31:29 <GregorR> I was thinking a special "output" urinal which would output a bit: 1 if time >= 10, 0 otherwise.
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21:44:59 <ihope> The problem with cloaks is that you can't collect them or anything.
21:47:27 <ihope> Unless I can get tapthru/resident/pdpc/supporter/active/ihope or something.
21:47:46 <ihope> Or tapthru/resident/pdpc/supporter/active/unaffiliated/ihope.
21:50:08 <oerjan> Wireworld is not Turing-complete unless you have an unbounded starting pattern.
21:51:16 * oerjan is reading yesterday's logs
21:52:23 <oerjan> However, that can still be interesting for cellular automata. The rule 110 1D-automaton is the same way at least for the known construction.
21:52:43 <oklopol> what do you mean unbounded starting pattern?
21:53:36 <oerjan> Wireworld patterns cannot grow, so to have infinite memory you need some kind of infinite initial pattern.
21:56:35 <oerjan> (Rule 110 patterns can grow leftwards however, so it may be possible in that case although yet unknown)
21:58:12 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmmmmm, that has some implications in terms of OoU too ... could still be a BSM though.
21:58:23 <oklopol> well, i think it's turing complete if it's capability can be increased with trivial changes
21:59:01 <oklopol> i mean, changes the system itself could theoretically implement
21:59:14 <oklopol> *changes that could be implemented on the system itself
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22:00:16 <GregorR> For it to be TC, you'd need to be able to use a recursive algorithm that could feasibly take unlimited memory.
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22:34:57 <GregorR> WireWorld is not TC, because you can't implement an algorithm that takes unbounded memory.
22:37:14 <SimonRC> GregorR: erm, it should be easy enought to construct a WW TM with infinite tape.
22:38:54 <oklopol> why are you whining about the fact a ww computer need more memory to be able to do more, are you saying assembly isn't tc?
22:44:43 <ihope> If assembly doesn't have infinite memory, it's not Turing-complete.
22:45:18 <ihope> Nothing in the universe is Turing-complete.
22:45:47 <ihope> Unless, that is, the universe is infinite and you can build something that'll never break down.
22:46:51 <ihope> Building such a thing will probably be very hard until very near the heat death of the universe, and I don't know whether such a thing could do anything after its heat death.
22:53:12 <SimonRC> "It takes N Prolog programmers to change a lightbulb." "N=1" "N=2" "N=3" "N=4" "N=5" "N=6" ... etc.
22:53:15 <SimonRC> "It takes N Prolog programmers to change a lightbulb." "N=1" "N=2" "N=3" "N=4" "N=5" "N=6" ... etc.
22:53:32 <oklopol> of course you could say any abstract language is tc, which means most languages, but you just cant create an interpreter for them
22:55:01 <GregorR> A language can be TC, an implementation cannot.
22:55:16 <GregorR> Assembly is not TC, mainly because it's tied so thoroughly to the processor.
22:55:25 <GregorR> Higher level languages are sometimes TC.
22:55:57 <ihope> oklopol: *any* abstract language?
22:56:32 <oklopol> any abstract language that is turing complete is theoretically turing complete is the gist of my mumbling
22:58:14 <ihope> So, to change the topic radically, what base language should we use for our esoteric programming language?
22:59:13 <ihope> s/programming language/operating system/, sheesh
22:59:23 <ihope> The Big Kahooey is that it's self-modifying and extensible and virtualizable.
22:59:31 <ihope> ("Kahooey" is Spanish for "criterion".)
23:01:20 * oerjan thinks ihope should fire his Spanish teacher.
23:01:37 <ihope> oerjan: good idea! :-)
23:04:38 <ihope> I take it Befunge is virtualizable.
23:04:57 <SimonRC> OST, Funge98. It has the same big-O running times as everything else.
23:05:34 <SimonRC> Funge98 can manage a 4G * 4G space. Make the whole disk into swap!
23:06:06 <ihope> Any Befunge variant should be wonderful enough.
23:06:20 <SimonRC> With whole-disk swap, you don't need any file-handling.
23:06:47 <SimonRC> but a Bef98 address fits nicely into a 64-bit word.
23:06:48 <ihope> You need to separate RAM from disk space, don't you?
23:07:10 <SimonRC> no, there si nothing to stop you making the whoel disk into swap. Some "real" OSes do that.
23:07:15 <ihope> Well, hey, it'd be a base. Let's not have any fancy features that can't be removed.
23:07:37 <ihope> We'd build the operating system on top of Funge.
23:07:37 <GregorR> Nothing wrong with memmapping everything.
23:07:46 <GregorR> Anybody want my Order of Urinals emulator? :-P
23:08:15 <ihope> Do real *platforms* do that?
23:08:37 <ihope> Surely we could build this swap stuff on top of the Funge.
23:09:50 <SimonRC> ihope: yeah, real platforms do that. I will try and find an example
23:10:09 <ihope> And, uh, I guess the Order of Urinals thing sounds interesting.
23:10:46 <ihope> Also, what actual reason is there to build this stuff into the platform?
23:11:40 <oklopol> "whole disk swap"...like virtual?
23:12:04 <GregorR> Just the whole disk memory mapped.
23:12:28 <GregorR> On a 64-bit platform or a 32-bit platform 20 years ago that'd be a perfectly good way to get to the HD.
23:13:38 <ihope> What if you have a weird hard drive?
23:13:41 <ihope> Or multiple hard drives?
23:13:48 <ihope> Or no hard drives at all?
23:14:27 <oklopol> it takes care of the type of your hardware
23:14:31 <GregorR> The OS should be able to detect it and memory map everything properly.
23:14:59 <oklopol> GregorR always think what i'm thinking and say what i can't get out :\
23:17:17 <oklopol> GregorR, can i have the emulator?
23:18:08 <GregorR> Oh, sure - it's in D, so I presume you want a binary? (What OS?)
23:20:00 <SimonRC> http://www.informatik.uni-ulm.de/rs/projekte/monads/PersistentVMemoryE.html
23:21:51 <oklopol> i said that a while ago haha :)
23:22:21 <GregorR> http://www.codu.org/oou-2007-01-24-win.zip
23:25:54 <GregorR> Where "cool" = "ridiculous" :-P
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23:26:18 <oklopol> how do you do console non-appending output?
23:26:39 <GregorR> I just clear the screen between displays
23:27:17 <oklopol> do they come and og randomly?
23:27:48 <GregorR> Yeah - I'm considering writing a proper event list format, so you can make event lists. Then comes output, etc.
23:28:16 <oklopol> too hard to do anything if it's all random
23:28:24 <GregorR> "Too hard" == "impossible" :P
23:28:58 <oklopol> just delays between peeers and the amount of pee in their baggies
23:30:50 <oklopol> you can supply me with the right term if you can
23:31:12 <oklopol> no matter how tautological that is
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23:37:13 <oklopol> but i settled with baggies since it didn't come right out
23:40:16 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i'm not supposed to be this fascinated about watching little ascii men pee :\
23:41:02 <GregorR> 1) Farthest from any other used urinals.
23:42:30 <oklopol> toilets and sinks not currently in use?
23:43:03 <GregorR> Only urinals are in the algorithm.
23:43:16 <oklopol> you could add those later too
23:43:23 <GregorR> Fewest neighbors == for example, in this arrangement: @|U|@|U it would prefer the far right one.
23:43:40 <GregorR> Or in this arrangement: U|U|@|U|U|U|@ it would prefer the far left one.
23:44:12 <oklopol> but, if there's a wall between them, they shouldn't care
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23:44:57 <oklopol> i mean, they don't need as big a distance as possible, because when eye contact is avoided for certain, the distance is as good as infinite
23:47:07 <oklopol> well, okay, finding the best possible is then not, probably
23:47:19 <oklopol> and, that would eliminate the possibility of tc
23:47:29 <GregorR> Not necessarily, but it sure wouldn't help.
23:48:50 <oklopol> in real life the guys make solutions based on what they see of course, so they woulnd't turn right back out if all urinals are taken either
23:49:02 <oerjan> This _could_ be fixed simply by replacing "|" with " ", you know.
23:49:55 <oklopol> okay, i find this lack of words a bit frustratingf
23:50:15 <GregorR> Yes, I know, but forming a line would be a huge PITA :P
23:50:55 <oerjan> why? aren't "|" and " " the same width?
23:53:24 <GregorR> Watching them find their way to a urinal in a maze = hilarity :P
23:54:13 <GregorR> What's particularly lame about this is I spent more time getting A* working than actually implementing OoU :P