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00:15:26 <pikhq> You know, Mussolini made the trains run on thyme.
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00:40:15 <SimonRC> pikhq: that is like, so last week
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03:03:58 <Sukoshi> Why doesen't Programming Python explain all of Python's syntax?
03:04:28 <Sukoshi> Is it meant for beginners who already know the language?
03:06:04 <Sukoshi> Maybe the Nutshell series is more for me. Java in a Nutshell was a great book (and I still refer to it). It goes first through the syntax for doing all the things most programming languages have, then it goes over OOP, then over common idioms, and lastly over the standard library (and then has a huge reference on the library).
03:10:18 <Sukoshi> I generally want a spec and the common idioms, yes.
03:11:33 <bsmntbombdood> or you could just read http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html, then http://docs.python.org/lib/lib.html and http://docs.python.org/ref/ref.html
03:14:14 <bsmntbombdood> well, the second link is a nice reference once you're done with your dead trees
03:28:40 <ihope> Oh yeah, tape archive.
03:28:44 <ihope> Come up with a new tar!
03:28:52 <ihope> A... um, non-tape archive. Call it nar.
03:29:31 <ihope> ...Are rar and dar uncompressed multi-file things?
03:29:42 <pikhq> No, they're *compressed* multi-file things.
03:30:19 <ihope> Well, tar isn't ever compressed, is it?
03:30:27 <pikhq> Tar itself is uncompressed.
03:30:36 <Sukoshi> Your mom is never compressed either.
03:30:41 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: That pipes tar through gzip.
03:30:57 <ihope> And how many people have created single-file compression algorithms called "feather" so far?
03:31:10 <pikhq> Sukoshi: That's stupid enough when testosterone-driven guys do it.
03:31:22 <ihope> Such a bad pun it must have been done hundreds of times!
03:31:29 <Sukoshi> pikhq: That's the reason behind me saying it ;)
03:31:39 <Sukoshi> The point is to use the jokes when it's so stupid, it's pathetically funny.
03:31:58 <pikhq> And, of course, the estrogen-driven female bit makes it even more stupid.
03:32:07 <lament> actually i compressed his mom just last night
03:32:34 <Sukoshi> A) Corset B) ??? C) Profit
03:32:35 <pikhq> It overflows once on funny_t (unsigned long), so it's at funny level 0.
03:32:55 <ihope> It's so funny it overflows a bignum! Wait, it doesn't; it's just not funny.
03:33:23 <Sukoshi> That just means they're really funny, bsmntbombdood.
03:33:40 <Sukoshi> You know, with the sign-bit on?
03:33:52 <ihope> The signed versus unsigned stuff is a teeny bit stupid.
03:34:03 <ihope> (And by stupid, I mean silly.)
03:34:20 <ihope> Arithmetic is the same; it's just comparison and overflow checks that are different.
03:34:25 <bsmntbombdood> it would be stupid in a high level, strongly typed language
03:34:39 <lament> ihope: comparison is a big one.
03:34:44 <ihope> Having different types for signed and unsigned would be stupid?
03:34:53 <ihope> lament: you could use different comparison operators.
03:35:05 <ihope> You could add a constant to both and then compare :-P
03:35:36 <ihope> It has more than one of each comparison operator for doubles?
03:35:48 <lament> actually signed vs. unsigned IS a high-level feature
03:35:57 <lament> a truly low-level language, such as forth, doesn't have it
03:36:25 <bsmntbombdood> it has an operator that works on doubles for every math operator for singles
03:36:40 <lament> the point is, you're dealing with 2 completely different types - a subset of the naturals, and a subset of the integers
03:36:42 <bsmntbombdood> it has to be, because doubles take up two stack slots
03:37:01 <lament> the implementation happens to be very similar, but because C is high-level, it abstracts that and presents them as two different types.
03:37:50 <lament> bsmntbombdood: won't you agree that "high-level" implies a higher degree of abstraction?
03:38:12 <ihope> I wouldn't say the implementation "happens to be" very similar. There's a big mathematical reason for it.
03:38:23 <pikhq> And caring about the *sign bit* sure as hell isn't high level.
03:38:25 <ihope> ...or maybe I would. :-P
03:39:07 <bsmntbombdood> i guess i mean it would be stupid in a to-the-metal language
03:39:12 <lament> another example: C has strings, despite them being simply arrays of characters
03:39:19 <lament> but C abstracts the implementation
03:39:27 <bsmntbombdood> the only reason C has signed and unsigned is so programmers can save a bit
03:39:31 <lament> it's a high-level feature
03:39:44 <pikhq> Funny, I thought that C did no abstraction on that. . .
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06:16:04 <bsmntbombdood> blaspheme (plural blasphemes) 1. Things said against the Church or God.
06:16:39 <pikhq> Gregor is a diety in the Church of Esome.
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07:16:24 <oklokok> (lament) bsmntbombdood: when you see a[b] and b[a], you think the same thing? <<< if i see *(a+b) and *(b+a), i do not think about the same thing
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07:32:30 <oklokok> bsmntbombdood sure knows how to make a conversation out of nothing
07:33:39 <oklokok> you sure know how to press the buttons of these esolangists
07:33:49 <oklokok> i've seen it happen before
07:35:19 <oklokok> well yes, i just like to make my words wrong
07:35:31 <oklokok> esolinguist does sound kinda nice
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08:01:04 <Sukoshi> Python's generators are just continuations, aren't they?
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09:13:21 <Sukoshi> I'm starting to understand what Pythonic code is.
09:13:33 <Sukoshi> Coding in Python feels very Lispy indeed.
09:17:02 <Sukoshi> I forgot that you use Scheme functionally.
09:19:19 <Sukoshi> In general, I code imperatively, unless it's a small utility thing.
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14:35:00 <ihope> My client was repeatedly trying to connect to freenode with the nick %ihope.
14:35:06 <ihope> ...which is invalid.
14:39:26 <ehird`> he is rebelling against the use of % as his command character
14:40:00 <ihope> Get him in here and see if %ihope does anything.
14:40:36 <ihope> (Op me in #implang while you're at it, will you? :-P)
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14:41:16 <blahbot`> quit, eval, ps, kill, cmds, help, reload, join, part, send, topic, raw, bf, parse, reduce, nc, wapr, rp (use %help for argument information)
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15:23:48 <oklokok> can i still ruin the party?
15:23:59 <oklokok> i guess i can if that was but a reboot
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15:35:14 <oklokok> is that a 'hi' for everyone individually or a general 'hi'?
15:36:49 <oklokok> i'm talking about this spesific case
15:37:31 <RodgerTheGreat> as I said, implementation-defined- think of yourself as an interpreter (implementation), whereas my statement constitutes a program
15:39:09 <ehird`> i am a buggy implementation
15:41:23 <oklokok> my implementation does not guess if it's not sure, while i know i have a direct contact to the programmer in time of need
15:41:36 <oklokok> so, can you, the programmer, tell me what you meant?
15:42:35 <oklokok> the greatest problem in undefined behavior is that you make fun of the compilers, i have to agree with that
15:44:01 <RodgerTheGreat> well, It appears I make a call to NGenerateGroup_GrePi or something.
15:46:29 <ehird`> pushobj (hi->every)one $$
15:46:42 <ehird`> which is saying hi to every, and only one every, and "fuck you" to everyone else and i am not every :(
15:48:19 <ehird`> you should write it as
15:48:45 <ehird`> $inline_bytecode [ pushobj everyone ] \hi% exit;
15:49:08 <pikhq> Looks like valid Tcl.
15:50:22 <ehird`> foreach isn't in the standard
15:50:29 <pikhq> Greet everyone in #esoteric
15:50:34 <ehird`> also, greet ->x; only works if your interpreter has the iso-morphism honorific rule
15:50:48 <ehird`> pikhq: everyone can still be parsed as (EXPR->every)one
15:51:09 <RodgerTheGreat> pikhq: what if everyone is autoboxed into "everyone"? Then we run into the same problem as ehird`'s compiler
15:51:23 <ehird`> ah, wait, a less-hacky portable version can be done with the pattern-matching name feature
15:53:05 <ehird`> there's a shortcut for that
15:54:31 <ehird`> an unbounded-for with a method-accessor can be shortened
15:54:51 <ehird`> and, since it's unambigious here, the full code is
15:55:10 <RodgerTheGreat> alright, so do all the test compilers here agree upon the acceptability of the new standard "$ greet"?
15:55:54 <ehird`> you can make it shorter by one character
15:56:10 <ehird`> using the operator-postfix-matching feature
15:56:28 <ehird`> and, since greet is the default entry method
15:56:54 <ehird`> which is unambigiously equal to &
15:57:01 <ehird`> so, i suggest "&" as a replacement for "hi everyone"
16:06:29 <ehird`> does this compile right to everyone?
16:16:04 <ehird`> such a slow irp response.
16:18:16 <ihope> ehird`: that's what happens when your interpreter is out having breakfast.
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16:49:45 <ihope> sebbu: do you speak French at all?
16:50:34 <sebbu> it's my mother tongue
16:51:09 <ihope> Well, there's this sort of experimental thing I... am doing, kind of.
16:51:23 <ihope> Trying to communicate without using English and hoping a new language comes about somehow.
16:51:44 <ehird`> so is #implang abandoned now?
16:52:01 <ihope> I think I'm trying to get more people for it.
16:52:13 <ehird`> but #implang turned into a planned language, didn't it?
16:52:18 <ihope> I guess I'm not sure of whether I'm really doing that.
16:53:00 <ihope> Well, I don't think I really like the way that that's going.
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17:45:10 <oklokok> try to keep that in mind, y'all
17:45:43 <ihope> By "ass", do you mean "donkey" or That Body Part with Many Names?
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18:47:31 <ns_> I should write an Unlambda interpreter in Haskell.
18:47:39 <ns_> Er, why is my nick ns_?
18:47:40 -!- ns_ has changed nick to ihope_.
18:47:54 <ihope_> I guess it didn't get the picture when I said /nick ihope_...
18:52:43 <ehird`> unlambda interpreter in haskell = 5 minute job
18:52:57 <ehird`> just represent the primitives as real haskell functions
18:53:00 <ihope_> I'm taking it slow. :-)
18:56:13 <olsner> hmm... how do you do call/cc in haskell?
18:57:23 <olsner> ah, a monad.. should've guessed ;-)
18:57:36 <pikhq> Unlambda in just about any functional language is trivial. . .
18:57:42 <ihope_> callCC :: (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
18:58:00 <ihope_> Don't tell me I should be done by now. I haven't started yet.
19:00:30 * pikhq should implement Unlambda in Scheme to learn some Scheme. . .
19:00:44 <pikhq> Know of any good Scheme interpreters?
19:01:28 <olsner> we used Chez Scheme for our SICP course
19:01:33 <ihope_> I do know "Write Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours", a Haskell tutorial which presumably results in a Scheme interpreter.
19:02:08 <olsner> oh, that reminds me that I was thinking of going through that tutorial... any day now
19:02:18 <ihope_> Also, . is to | as ? is to the command Unlambda needs.
19:03:35 <olsner> hmm... please clarify?
19:04:40 <ihope_> `|X returns `X.x where x is the current character. There should be a command--", say--such that `"X returns `X?x where x is the current character.
19:06:50 <ihope_> I think the monad I want is ContT IO.
19:10:25 <ihope_> (Also, I wonder if this kernel update will break ndiswrapper.)
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19:41:31 <ehird`> good scheme interpreter?
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20:41:08 <oklopol> i love that lang, though i haven't really used it
20:41:12 <ihope> It's like an aardvark, except more of a potato.
20:41:16 <oklopol> wouter is one smooth talker
20:41:31 <oklopol> did i remember the name wrong?
20:42:08 <ihope> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardvark
20:42:49 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orycteropus_afer_stuffed.jpg omg i've never seen anything this beautiful :O
20:45:47 <ihope> "[The House Mouse] is probably the second most populous mammalian species on Earth (after humans)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Mouse
20:46:06 <ihope> Quite the thing. If humans are the most populous mammal, and they're so big...
20:48:00 <olsner> I'd like to see the top-ten populous animals... things like cockroaches - how many can there be on the entire earth?
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20:48:54 <ihope> Heck, I wonder what the most populous organism is.
20:52:01 <olsner> hehe, the Methuselah Mouse Prize is somewhat like competing in server uptimes, but for mouse breeders
20:52:17 <oklokok> "Heck, i wonder what most people thing an orgasm is."
20:52:36 <olsner> current record: a mouse that lived for 1819 days
20:59:13 <ehird`> MY MOUSE LIVED FOR 14 EO
20:59:30 <ihope> House Mouse: Mus musculus. Apparently "musculus" means "little mouse", and the word "muscle" comes from that.
21:01:23 <ihope> Looks like there have been only four eons.
21:01:28 <ihope> This is the fourth.
21:02:21 <ehird`> so my body has lots of little mice
21:03:40 <ihope> Nope. Ideally, your muscles make it look like there are mice running around under your skin.
21:03:46 <ihope> At least, that's what I've heard on the radio.
21:04:02 <ihope> And that ideal is an old one, not a current one. :-)
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22:36:33 <bsmntbombdood> they say i need a better reason than "just curious"
22:36:59 <olsner> they think you're a terrorist
22:39:30 <oklopol> also i think he's a terrorist... who in their right mind would have 'bomb' in their nick unless they're a terrorist...
22:39:53 <GregorR> Claim it's for a school project.
22:40:56 <bsmntbombdood> but, they invited me to come talk to their engineer who could show me how the system works
22:41:08 <bsmntbombdood> which is probably what they would have done if i said it was for school
22:43:11 <Sukoshi> lament: Python is indeed very nice.
22:43:22 <Sukoshi> The only thing I don't like about it is the somewhat-shoddy OOP.
22:43:51 <Sukoshi> What's the point of having to include self as a parameter in each object method?
22:44:47 <oklopol> foo.bar() is just syntactic sugar for class_of_foo.bar(foo)
22:45:11 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: Claim you are writing a novel about a volcano erupting in the city and you think the storm drains could be used to re-direct lava.
22:45:40 <SimonRC> That was the plot of some movie the "sci-fi" channel show occasionally
22:45:44 <Sukoshi> I realize that oklopol, but still, they could have made the system a bit more OOP-ish.
22:45:50 <SimonRC> several of their movies in fact
22:45:54 <Sukoshi> If it's, as it claims, ``built-around-OOP''.
22:46:31 <SimonRC> erm, you are using a silly definition of OOP
22:47:02 <SimonRC> http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html
22:47:11 <oklopol> Sukoshi: i don't like the self thing either, but just because i don't like typing the extra 5 characters.
22:47:14 <SimonRC> you are concentrating too much on #9
22:47:26 <SimonRC> otoh, Python is heavily oriented to #9
22:47:35 <Sukoshi> Yes I am. I'm assuming a message-passing system with methods belonging to classes that naturally perform state-based behavior.
22:47:40 <bsmntbombdood> SimonRC: that wouldn't require knowing the real locations
22:48:07 <Sukoshi> On that assumption, which I believe is tacit when referring to Python, I make my arguments :)
22:48:11 <bsmntbombdood> Sukoshi: self is explicitly passed, rather than implicitly
22:48:17 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: it might do. Depends if there is a bright that falls down blocking it or something
22:48:28 <pikhq> SimonRC: You've just commited a grave logical fallacy: Argumentum ad Paul Graham.
22:48:29 <SimonRC> you could just walk round them and map them yourself
22:48:39 <bsmntbombdood> i wouldn't know where the tunnels and outfalls are
22:48:55 <bsmntbombdood> and which manholes are storm drains and which are sanitary/water
22:48:59 <SimonRC> pikhq: I just think there is more to OO than the Smalltalk family
22:49:28 <SimonRC> ah, I was thining of storm drains as the big open things like in the movie Grease.
22:49:46 <oklopol> bsmntbombdood: with pleasure
22:49:47 <Sukoshi> I'm familliar with the different systems but, it is a bit baroque to talk about edge cases of a multimethod system when referring to a message-passing system, is my point :)
22:49:53 <pikhq> Besides, he ignores Snit's delegation behavior. . .
22:49:59 <oklopol> we'll do that next time you're in finland
22:50:15 <bsmntbombdood> if i could find the outfalls, i wouldn't need the map
22:55:35 <bsmntbombdood> maybe i can get someone to go taxpayer on their ass
22:56:04 <SimonRC> ``<oklokok> "Heck, i wonder what most people thing an orgasm is."'' <--- ?!?!
22:56:59 <SimonRC> bsmntbombdood: with that there is always the worry that they will offer you a refund. :-)
23:00:38 <lament> speaking of OO, haskell so doesn't have any :(
23:03:18 <SimonRC> by the reeese definitions, it has 1, 2, 4, 5, and 7
23:06:52 <oklopol> SimonRC: that was how i read what ihope said a couple lines before that
23:09:32 <lament> by the what definitions?
23:13:14 <ihope> I guess fixing ndiswrapper is a little fun.
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23:21:06 <SimonRC> lament: http://paulgraham.com/reesoo.html
23:27:24 <lament> i don't think 5 applies to haskell, but in any case the fact that so many definitions apply seems to suggest that that list of definitions is bullshit
23:27:33 <ehird`> http://pi.ytmnd.com/ ha! i love that song. it also occurs to me that this is an excellent way to memorize pi
23:29:32 <ihope> I don't think I get number 1.
23:33:42 <oklopol> i should make an infinite flash piece for pi
23:34:05 <ihope> Mmh, I don't want to have a password anymore.
23:34:17 <ihope> I've typed it rather a many times today.
23:42:48 * GregorR 's laptop has a fingerprint scanner.
23:43:33 * pikhq 's desktop has a unique entry method composed of a collection of alphanumeric buttons, used for both textual and mathematic input
23:44:34 <GregorR> Is this new and unique method of input called a "keyboard"?
23:44:38 <ehird`> oklopol: but can you make it generate that song
23:44:56 <ehird`> it's just a beat + some vocals :p
23:45:03 <ehird`> record vocals for 0-9 and some patterns of numbers,
23:45:15 <ehird`> play the background using some synthesiser or whatever
23:45:22 <ehird`> and play the vocal samples on top while scrolling by pi
23:45:30 <ehird`> perfect way to memorize pi!
23:46:07 <ihope> Typing my password requires pressing Shift four times... which isn't that bad, I guess.
23:46:34 <pikhq> GregorR: Yes, it is! Quite incredible! (I take it you have one, too!)
23:46:47 <ehird`> um for some reason these digits popped into my head 2058914058291749238410697980
23:46:49 <GregorR> pikhq: I have at least four :P
23:46:53 <ehird`> i think they are in pi somewhere, but i got a part wrong
23:47:03 <GregorR> pikhq: I also have a touchscreen laptop OOOOH BURN
23:47:08 <ehird`> near the start, of course
23:47:15 <ihope> Touchscreen laptop?
23:47:20 <ihope> My laptop has a touchpad!
23:47:22 <pikhq> 4, if you count a broken laptop, an AT keyboard, and a keyboard without a space bar.
23:47:44 <pikhq> Well, I *have* the space bar. . .
23:47:50 <pikhq> Just a few feet away from the keyboard.
23:48:59 <ihope> Yay, I now better know what the problem with ndiswrapper is!
23:49:28 <ihope> (Cool. One of the spelling suggestions for "ndiswrapper" is "handicappers".)
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