00:05:01 <tusho> you are maintaining that guy's page :P
00:07:05 <Slereah> I want to see what crazyv shinanigans he'll think up next!
00:07:19 <tusho> Slereah: probably he's WILLY ON WHEELS
00:10:09 <tusho> Slereah: I bet you're melab
00:11:04 <Slereah> I don't even understand that esolang of his.
00:11:52 <tusho> Slereah: It does look pretty cool.
00:30:41 <Slereah> I'm trying to think of a language to write the Andrei Machine in it
00:30:49 <Slereah> But I don't know that much.
00:31:13 <Slereah> I know like three real languageqs enough to program in.
00:33:00 <oerjan> Haskell (and other functional languages too) is considered very good for writing other languages in
00:34:00 <Slereah> Would doing some graph-related shinanigans be practical in it?
00:35:02 <oerjan> hm graph support is a bit hairy if you want it pure... but there is a Data.Graph.* hierarchy
00:35:53 <oerjan> ML means meta-language - it was essentially _made_ for doing other languages in
00:36:12 <oerjan> (well a theorem prover originally, but still)
00:37:37 <Slereah> "Programming language graph" : http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~flab/languages.html
00:39:47 <Slereah> It also only goes up to 97.19%
00:39:51 <Slereah> Where are the other languages :o
00:41:07 <Slereah> Also this : http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html
00:41:12 <Slereah> It's actually quite nifty.
00:41:38 <oerjan> the TIOBE index has more (ooh, haskell is up to no. 31 now, i recall 50 or so)
00:42:34 <oerjan> hm maybe i remember wrong it only goes to 50
00:42:38 <Slereah> It also does not list INTERCAL
00:43:03 <oerjan> well it says they may have missed languages
00:43:13 <oerjan> truth in advertising there :)
00:44:54 <Slereah> "A Graph Rewriting Programming Language for Graph Drawing"
00:45:21 <Slereah> "The paper describes Grrr, a prototype visual graph drawing tool."
00:45:30 <Slereah> I hope it's available somewhere.
00:46:02 <lament> that sounds suspiciously like UML
00:46:42 <Slereah> I only find research papers
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00:47:35 <Slereah> Come on, it was out in 1998!
00:47:46 <Slereah> You'd think in ten years, it would be easy to find!
00:48:13 <lament> you think it's easy to find something that was published in some obscure scientific journal 300 years ago?
00:48:28 <lament> that's 10 years internet time :)
00:49:04 <Slereah> Hell, with Wikipedia nowadays, who knows!
00:50:55 <Slereah> Come on guys, how is your paper supposed to be peer-reviewed if your peers do'nt have access to the program!
00:51:01 <Slereah> Give us a link, something!
00:54:55 <Slereah> Well, I suppose I'll never know how useful it would be!
00:59:18 <Slereah> is a lazy, pure, higher order functional programming language with explicit graph rewriting semantics; one can explicitly define the sharing of structures (cyclic structures as well) in the language;
01:01:08 <tusho> Slereah: Clean. Is like.
01:01:14 <tusho> Haskell. But with a few more weird stuff.
01:01:17 <tusho> And something weirder than monads.
01:01:19 <tusho> And. Nobody uses it.
01:01:25 <tusho> But. Their compiler is pretty cool.
01:01:38 <Slereah> "Computation is based on graph rewriting and reduction. Constants such as numbers are graphs and functions are graph rewriting formulas."
01:02:00 <Slereah> But if it can hosts the Andrei Machine 9000, I'll give it a look.
01:02:02 <oerjan> Also, knowing too much about it causes you to speak in short punctuated spurts.
01:03:02 <Slereah> It's a risk I'll have to take.
01:04:29 <tusho> Slereah: Oh, and. If Haskell isn't your thing for Andrei?
01:04:36 <tusho> It is, pretty much, the same paradigm.
01:04:43 <Slereah> There's a questionaire before the downloading of Clean.
01:04:45 <tusho> But.. nobody uses it. So you don't have the lovely #haskell people.
01:04:54 <Slereah> " I intend to use Clean for the following purpose:"
01:05:35 <Slereah> "Try to see if the graph rewriting features will help me construct the unholy Kolmogorov machine."
01:05:45 <Slereah> I hope this answer will help them in their marketing.
01:05:49 <oerjan> the underlying graph semantics is not necessarily any improvement for implementing actual graph data structures - haskell has been given graph rewriting semantics too
01:06:39 <tusho> Slereah: Yeah, Clean doesn't help you, in any way.
01:06:45 <tusho> It hinders you, because #HASKELL IS NICE DAMNIT
01:07:01 <oerjan> i think (but don't really know) making it explicit is more in order to support the uniqueness types that Clean uses instead of monads - to know whether things are copied you have to track them
01:07:58 <oerjan> why do you hate Haskell? Clean is _very_ similar in many respects so unless it's _just_ monads chances are you'll hate that too
01:08:20 <Slereah> I don't want to build it out of lists. I can just go back to Python for that.
01:09:49 <Slereah> Why do programmers hate graphs so much!
01:09:56 <oerjan> Data.Graph.* i hear, although there are at least _two_ implementations inside that
01:10:47 <oerjan> for Haskell it is somewhat more complicated because it is hard to make an efficient _immutable_ implementation of graphs, i think
01:11:29 <oerjan> also, in Haskell you often define your own data structures with data
01:11:57 <tusho> data structures... with data
01:11:59 <tusho> (I know what you meant.)
01:12:00 <oerjan> but ask in #haskell for better advice
01:12:06 <tusho> oerjan: he is scared of #haskell
01:12:15 <tusho> whenever he joins he just says I'M TOO SCARED TO SAY ANYTHING!11
01:12:31 <oerjan> also you may try ML (SML or Ocaml)
01:13:00 <oerjan> they are not lazy and so behave in some ways more intuitively to people from other languages
01:13:17 <oerjan> while still having much functional goodness
01:13:53 <tusho> oerjan: his languages are lazy
01:13:55 <tusho> so I doubt it's that
01:14:10 <tusho> oh, and #esoteric-blah if anyone wants to see a fun spam flood test
01:15:09 <Slereah> Lazy languages are good for esolangs.
01:15:19 <Slereah> I'm not too sure about real languages.
01:25:47 <Slereah> I'll make the damn graph out of lists.
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01:34:48 <Slereah7> Wait, Kolmogorov graphs aren't directed.
01:35:56 <lament> scheme does not have anything
01:36:49 <Slereah7> I'll just write some algorithm in pseudocode for a start
01:37:10 <Slereah7> I still have no idea how to find active zones and all.
01:37:49 <tusho> Slereah7: rewriting stuff is fun
01:43:43 <oerjan> Your code! 99 times! And then starting again from scratch!
01:43:48 <Slereah7> Oh wait, does the 0 node have to be in the active zone?
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01:45:06 <Slereah7> "By the active part U(S) of a state S we mean the subcomplex of the complex S consisting of the vertices and edges belonging to chains of length lambda <= N containing the initial vertex."
01:45:26 <Slereah7> Writing that active zone just got a whole lot easier!
01:45:43 <Slereah7> I just have to check the hoods of 0
01:46:47 * Slereah7 is totally scanning the article
01:47:20 <Slereah7> He's a commie, he probably won't mind.
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09:53:47 <oklopol> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/straw.txt cool lang
09:54:17 <oklopol> i especially like the way mutation is done
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15:01:21 <Slereah> I suppose no one knows how to use the PSP emulator?
15:05:48 <ais523> Program Segment Prefix?
15:05:55 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Divers3/PSPE.jpg
15:05:59 <ais523> or portable Playstation?
15:06:40 <AnMaster> I could help with getting the n64 emulator mupen64 working
15:07:03 <AnMaster> 1) don't try on x86_64, the code is mostly x86 asm 2) thus install a 32-bit chroot
15:12:48 * ais523 realises with horror that they had 5 different web browsers open at once a few minutes ago
15:13:24 <Slereah> You and your multiple personalities?
15:14:12 <ais523> Slereah: I was using singular they to refer to myself
15:14:21 <Slereah> load H:\pspe\ms0\PSP\GAME\SOFT1\EBOOT.PBP
15:14:30 <ais523> I use they for that in several cases
15:14:56 <ais523> incidentally, the browsers were IE, FF2, FF3, Konqueror, and Akregator's built in web browser
15:15:09 <ais523> I have Epiphany installed here too, but happened not to be using it at the time
15:15:33 <AnMaster> used by, for example, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, and most, if not all other *nix
15:15:42 <AnMaster> Mac OS X use a custom format I know
15:16:08 <ais523> AnMaster: ELF is one of the formats that SCO claimed they owned the right to a while ago
15:16:22 <ais523> nobody believes them AFAICT, but that at least implies that SCO probably use it
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15:17:17 <Slereah> So how do I shot elf header?
15:17:48 <ais523> you use a linker that produces ELF
15:17:52 <ais523> to link the executable
15:18:25 <ais523> yes, SunOS uses ELF too
15:18:34 <ais523> and as a result it seems highly likely that Solaris does
15:19:04 <ais523> so IOW, it seems likely that every major OS but MacOS and Windows uses it by default
15:19:30 <ais523> and I suspect MacOS X is capable of using it but it isn't the default
15:19:37 <Slereah> "Shit happens. This is not a PSP Emulator. It wont play comercial games, ISOs or even ELFs."
15:19:53 <Slereah> I think my computer might not be the culprit.
15:20:18 <Slereah> "Fuck this software! those who are rich and can afford to buy psp FUCK YOU we cant just buy psp it is not cheap. LOOOKK AT YOUR MAMA AND FFFUCCCKK THEEEMM UPPP, BECAUSE YOU ARE ALL MUTHAFUCKING ASSHOLES! MOST AMERICANS ARE ASSHOLES"
15:20:31 <Slereah> I get the feeling this PSP emulator does not work so well as an emulator
15:20:42 <ais523> well, what does it emulate, then?
15:21:01 <ais523> maybe it could run PSPOS, whatever that is
15:21:27 <Slereah> Maybe I could try to find the game on PC.
15:21:35 <Slereah> But boy does it not look good
15:22:32 <ais523> Slereah: you aren't trying something illegal, are you?
15:22:47 <Slereah> I actually possess the Playstation CD.
15:22:58 <ais523> ah, but you want to run it on a different system
15:23:12 <Slereah> Well, my playstation doesn't work so good any more
15:23:20 <Slereah> Plus, I don't know where it is
15:23:34 <Slereah> And last time I tried it, the memory card wasn't working.
15:23:46 <ais523> those are all good reasons not to use it
15:24:17 <Slereah> I also don't know where the playstation CD is.
15:24:35 <Slereah> My mom probably put all of that somewhere mysterious.
15:25:39 <Slereah> If you want something illegal, try this! http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/
15:25:50 <ais523> no, I don't want something illegal
15:25:58 <Slereah> But beware, or the American Mathematical Society might send their goons after you.
15:26:03 <AnMaster> Slereah, I won't click that link, what is it?
15:26:15 <ais523> there are a couple of illegal numbers
15:26:23 <Slereah> Well, it's technically copyrighted.
15:26:23 <ais523> both of which became famous on the internet
15:26:39 <Slereah> It's the Uspenski-Kolmogorov machine article
15:26:50 <AnMaster> Slereah, and why is that ileegal?
15:27:10 <Slereah> Well, it is copyright 1963 by the American Mathematical Society.
15:27:28 <ais523> the article itself is copyright infringement?
15:27:37 <Slereah> "No portion of this book may be reproduced without the written permission of the publisher"
15:28:26 <Slereah> Have mercy on me, office of technical services!
15:28:38 <Slereah> (The guys who did the translation)
15:30:06 <AnMaster> Your request for http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/Kolmo%2001.jpg could not be fulfilled, because the domain name membres.lycos.fr could not be resolved.
15:30:31 <AnMaster> (spelling was sarcasm with intent)
15:30:58 <Slereah> No need for Tor, I'm sure the AMS isn't monitoring my websit!
15:31:47 <olsner> or so they want you to believe
15:32:39 <AnMaster> well I don't have time to read it, or knowledge to understand it
15:37:18 <Slereah> Actually, I would recommend reading from page 11 and on first.
15:37:39 <Slereah> It's easier to understand.
15:52:42 <ais523> nothing to do with esolangs AFAICT
15:52:49 <ais523> registered in Russia, unsurprisingly
15:53:03 <Slereah> I was googling for esolang
15:54:48 <Slereah> http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042139
15:55:05 <Slereah> Magic players aren't enthusiastic at the idea.
15:55:13 <ais523> hey, Esolang has an article about that
15:55:17 <ais523> I even wrote a program in it
15:55:53 <ais523> the cards in it are a little out-of-date, though
15:56:11 <ais523> I admit to being slightly shocked that someone else went to the trouble of understanding the program well enough to fix a bug in it, though
15:58:00 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah: what do you really expect? It's never even explicit in that post that you're talking about a programming language. The only people that could possibly have any idea what you're talking about would be people that already code in esolangs, and I doubt a wizards-of-the-coast forum is a good place to find those.
15:58:58 <RodgerTheGreat> so apparently I don't get to ridicule you for playing Magic. :/
15:59:10 <ais523> I don't play it at the moment
15:59:16 <ais523> because prices went up at the place where I used to play it
15:59:23 <ais523> and I tend to desert places when they increase prices
15:59:36 <ais523> it's a good idea for a game, though
15:59:54 <ais523> and it can certainly feel like programming at times
15:59:57 <Slereah> And as Knuth said, that's the most important part!
16:00:27 <ais523> oh dear, we seem to have a new meme
16:02:14 <RodgerTheGreat> so games are now the most important part. This could generate some interesting esolangs.
16:02:35 <ais523> well, there's my esolang-based text adventure
16:02:40 <ais523> which is not very complete
16:02:48 <ais523> and which I haven't written any of for ages
16:02:53 <Slereah> And there was that text adventure based esolang.
16:03:10 <ais523> and Lost Kingdoms, which is a text adventure written in an esolang
16:03:17 <RodgerTheGreat> GregorR: I demand you add this hat to your collection: http://www.costumecraze.com/HAT37.html
16:03:20 <ais523> heh, three different concepts
16:04:05 <Slereah> http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042139
16:04:14 <Slereah> I mean, http://www.costumecraze.com/MASK54.html
16:04:21 <Slereah> I want to rob a bank with that mask.
16:04:23 <ais523> Slereah: used the wrong clipboard?
16:05:07 <RodgerTheGreat> Slereah: nah, you should rob a putt-putt golf course or a driving range with that mask
16:05:47 <Slereah> I found a French page on esolangs.
16:05:48 <RodgerTheGreat> this is actually rather terrifying: http://www.costumecraze.com/MASK56.html
16:05:54 <Slereah> There's something you don't see everyday.
16:06:14 <Slereah> The missing teeth make it look a little goofy.
16:08:11 <Slereah> Heh. The Klingon Hello world is "What do you want, universe?"
16:08:24 <ais523> Slereah: yes, that's about the closest you can get in Klingon
16:09:09 <Slereah> Those klingons are so full of boyish attitude.
16:09:59 <Slereah> The website is actually pretty horrible
16:19:18 <RodgerTheGreat> HOLY SHIT NEW DRESDEN CODAK http://dresdencodak.com/cartoons/dc_053.html
16:21:12 <Slereah> I'm trying to tie this to the previous comics
16:22:01 <Slereah> And if so, what is she doing in a jar?
16:24:47 <Slereah> I wonder if you could make a TC language with stupid mathematical functions.
16:25:16 <Slereah> I was thinking stuff like Ackermann and such
16:25:36 <Slereah> You can do Ackermann with , but can it work the other way around?
16:27:18 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthy_91_function
16:28:07 <RodgerTheGreat> sure, seems like a sufficiently evil way to provide a constant
16:28:33 <Slereah> Well, not all values get out 91.
16:29:06 <Slereah> I guess you'd have to include at least 0 in the language.
16:29:26 <Slereah> Plus, Ackermann can easily provide a successor operator, since A(0,n) = n+1
16:29:56 <RodgerTheGreat> so you can thus trivially generate any needed integers via ackermann
16:30:00 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: I also thought about a lang where Ackermann and inverse-Ackermann were the only operators
16:30:21 <ais523> also, I was going to have it so that everything in the entire lang was unprintable characters
16:30:33 <RodgerTheGreat> it's a very pure idea, but it might be more fun to have several functions like that, to add some variety
16:30:41 <ais523> e.g. ASCII 0-31 and 127, not allowing spaces, tabs, newlines or vtabs
16:31:30 <ais523> oh, and my lang was deliberately not TC
16:31:39 <ais523> it was an Ackermann-bounded automaton
16:31:56 <ais523> whenever it took input, it was allowed to allocate a certain amount of memory to use
16:32:04 <ais523> which it could calculate with the remnants of its old memory
16:32:20 <ais523> and a program can start with any amount of memory to begin with which must be specified in the code
16:32:24 <ais523> also, all memory was write-once
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16:32:39 <ais523> I haven't worked out the rest of the details yet, though
16:33:01 <ais523> anyway, the lang is definitely not TC, but likely to be powerful enough for most computations which aren't searches through an infinite search space
16:33:13 <ais523> like searching for Riemann hypothesis counterexamples, for instance
16:33:26 <RodgerTheGreat> so, we have A, R and M. can anybody think of other wildly impractical functions that could potentially be useful?
16:34:02 <ais523> well, there's Malbolge's tritwise-crz operator
16:34:18 <ais523> that was invented for the purpose of being wildly impractical
16:34:34 <ais523> RodgerTheGreat: look-and-say operator
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16:35:09 <Slereah> ais523 : I like the way you think!
16:35:27 <ais523> oh, you may as well do generalised Graham's stuff
16:35:40 <ais523> because it would just be wrong not to be able to easily express A(g_64,g_64)
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16:36:24 <RodgerTheGreat> haha- check out the 71st-order polynomial related to look-and-say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look-and-say_sequence
16:36:26 <Slereah> Nah, Graham's notation makes some sort of sense.
16:36:48 <Slereah> Unlike the Ackermann functioncreated to be specifically non-primitive recursive.
16:38:05 <Slereah> Otherwise, I'm not sure how to get smaller numbers.
16:38:39 <ais523> inverse ackermann so you can do things like subtraction
16:39:08 <ais523> not so sure about that
16:39:14 <Slereah> To have some sort of functional Malbolge.
16:39:51 <ais523> IMO Malbolge's main interesting features are the c++,d++ stuff and the encryption of commands when they're run
16:40:18 <RodgerTheGreat> trying to use crazy to perform useful operations can also be interesting
16:41:34 <Slereah> So if no function definition, how to use all that?
16:41:59 <ais523> well, with some other control structure
16:42:19 <ais523> the standard ones are functional, iterative with looping, imperative with goto, and the fungelike method
16:42:28 <ais523> oh, declarative and concatenative too
16:42:30 <RodgerTheGreat> which would in effect give you quite powerful flow control and make recursive procedures easy
16:42:44 <ais523> what do you mean by 'piecewise functions' here?
16:43:29 <RodgerTheGreat> make it a purely functional language, and allow the programmer to specify values for output based on properties of the input
16:44:04 <RodgerTheGreat> wikipedia's description of Ackermann, for example, makes use of a piecewise definition
16:44:28 <RodgerTheGreat> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/0/a/e/0ae4053de098cc9554752b190a38bc56.png
16:44:40 <Slereah> So... Some conditional operator?
16:44:45 <ais523> the issue with allowing users to define their own functions is that they probably wouldn't end up using all the interesting ones the language offers
16:45:02 <Slereah> But this language would offer no interesting functions.
16:45:17 <RodgerTheGreat> ais523: which might be solved by allowing piecewise definitions, but not having conventional boolean operators. :D
16:45:33 <ais523> how many logic levels are we having?
16:45:48 <ais523> it's hard to come up with interesting boolean operators if you only have 2 logic levels
16:46:28 <ais523> as in, true/false are the usual logic levels for a boolean
16:46:35 <ais523> and that gives you operators like AND and OR
16:46:47 <ais523> but say if we had true/false/FILE_NOT_FOUND instead, that would make things more interesting
16:46:58 <Slereah> Doesn't intuitionist logic have an infinity of values?
16:51:59 <Slereah> So... Piecewise definition?
16:52:20 <Slereah> Using our crazy functions as logical operators?
16:55:54 <Slereah> What would it do if the third value hits?
16:56:16 <RodgerTheGreat> and toss in the greek letter idea for syntactic flavor
16:56:27 <ais523> Slereah: it would do the opposite
16:56:41 <ais523> e.g. if you say if(boolean) {a++}, and boolean is megafalse, it decrements a
16:56:41 <Slereah> What would be the opposite?
16:56:55 <ais523> OFC, that isn't the actual syntax
16:57:03 <ais523> just an example in syntax that's well-known
16:57:45 <Slereah> Opposite seems a little challenging, especially with the 91 function.
16:58:27 <ais523> hmm... what would 'opposite' mean here?
16:58:35 <ais523> instead of a=91(b), do b=91(a)?
16:58:42 <ais523> that would be one possibility
16:58:54 <ais523> OFC, this means you have to be able to assign to constants, but INTERCAL's never found that a problem
16:59:02 <ais523> and it used to be legal in Fortran
16:59:10 <ais523> confusing, too, because constants were passed to functions by reference
17:01:07 <Slereah> But if constants become functions, they still won't be fed arguments.
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17:02:11 <Slereah> Maybe we could rotate functions if we get the third value.
17:02:27 <Slereah> Like A becomes 91, 91 becomes look and say, what have yous.
17:02:59 <ais523> also, all commands other than conditionals should use the functions
17:03:11 <ais523> if you want to assign one variable from another, you have to do it through an Ackermann
17:03:29 <Slereah> Why "other than the conditionals"?
17:03:44 <ais523> Slereah: because they take boolean input
17:03:58 <Slereah> Well, you could just get the numbers mod 3.
17:05:02 <ais523> how will loops be done?
17:06:37 <ais523> how will function definition be done, then?
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17:22:40 <ais523> [17:24] [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 33 seconds
17:24:39 <Slereah7> Is there a way to compute the Ramsey's numbers?
17:26:18 <ais523> most of them aren't known
17:26:39 <ais523> <wikipedia> At the time of writing, even the exact value of R(5,5) is unknown, although it is known to lie between 43 (Geoffrey Exoo) and 49 (Brendan McKay and Stanisław Radziszowski) (inclusive); barring a breakthrough in theory, it is probable that the exact value of R(6,6) will remain unknown forever.
17:27:03 <Slereah7> Then it might not be a good idea to include it.3
17:28:02 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:28:28 <ais523> there's a neat Erdos quote on the same page
17:29:22 <Slereah7> Hiato, what would you think of some sort of functional Malbolge?
17:29:50 <olsner> "Imagine an alien force, vastly more powerful than us landing on Earth and demanding the value of R(5, 5) or they will destroy our planet. In that case, we should marshal all our computers and all our mathematicians and attempt to find the value. But suppose, instead, that they asked for R(6, 6), we should attempt to destroy the aliens."
17:30:13 <Hiato> err... well, lets see. Sounds interesting, though I doubt [one] would be able to take advantage of lazy evaluation in Malbolge
17:30:39 <ais523> how would the encryption be done?
17:30:46 <Hiato> olsne: Can you help me out
17:31:00 <Hiato> ais523: OOOH - Lets use my strem cipher
17:31:15 <ais523> Hiato: does it encrypt functions?
17:31:34 <Hiato> Well, it encrypts stuff :P Anything in the range [0;255]
17:31:50 <Hiato> so, yeah, it would be able to encrypt any binary info :)
17:31:52 <ais523> most functions aren't in the range [0;255]
17:31:58 <ais523> you could encode them as such
17:32:08 <ais523> but I don't think it's possible to have a unique encoding for functions
17:32:14 <ais523> at least, not in a TC system
17:32:21 <ais523> because it's uncomputable to determine whether two functions are the same
17:32:43 <Hiato> I was thinking along the lines of, the function name is encrypted, the function process is encrypted and the output s decrypted (not being encrypted in the first place)
17:33:02 <Slereah7> Also, what would the language be called?
17:33:24 <Hiato> and by encryption, I mean literal character encryption by means of my poly-alphabetic substitution self modifying network
17:33:30 <Hiato> heh, yeah, not bad
17:33:32 <ais523> after all, writing the xkcd number is one of the few things it would be good at
17:33:58 <Slereah7> Well, if we put in the Graham notation
17:33:58 <ais523> assuming it can calculate g_64 easily
17:34:07 <ais523> I was thinking just G(64)
17:34:15 <ais523> rather than the rest of the notation
17:34:22 <ais523> so you can get arbitrary Graham's numbers
17:34:49 <ais523> anyway, this is unlikely ever to be implementable
17:34:56 <Slereah7> What if we totally went overboard with that greek character idea?
17:35:01 <ais523> what's look-and-say of the XKCD number, anyway?
17:35:04 <Slereah7> What if we used function definition, ancient greek style?
17:35:24 <ais523> bringing a whole new meaning to 'lambda' calculus?
17:36:14 <Hiato> I feel it wrong of me to distract from the topic here, but I must ask: Who here is good at mathematics, specifically the business of odd conjectures?
17:36:46 <Hiato> I have one that needs proving/debating and that is as interesting as the Collatz Conjecture (in my view anyway)
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17:37:15 <Hiato> ais523, Slereah, anyone? :P
17:38:51 <ais523> I'm good at maths but not really at odd conjectures
17:39:01 <ais523> I only like bits of maths, really
17:39:20 <Hiato> well, see if this tickles you then: http://rafb.net/p/9IEm5j97.html
17:39:28 <Hiato> there's the impl. and here's the conjecture:
17:40:30 <Hiato> Take any 2 positive integers, say x and why, and continually add the sum of all the digits of each number to their respective number. Unless *only one* of the numbers is a multiple of three, the two paths will merge
17:41:11 <Hiato> sounds arb, bu it seems to work :)
17:41:27 <ais523> ok, that's mildly interesting
17:41:41 <ais523> are there attractor numbers which always seem to end up on paths
17:41:42 * Hiato wonders if it's international typo day
17:41:56 <ais523> for divisible by 3 and indivisible by 3
17:42:18 <ais523> e.g. if for some reason the paths always ended up going through 12345678 unless the original number was higher than some critical value
17:42:55 <Hiato> 620 for pretty much everything below 20 I believe
17:43:07 <Hiato> and 1003 for everything below 50
17:43:14 <Hiato> so I presume really
17:43:23 <Hiato> *below 50, above 20
17:43:45 <Hiato> try it, using Merge('101','595')
17:44:03 <Hiato> err, that is the bigger number comes first
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17:48:09 <Slereah> I have absolutely horrible ideas for output.
17:48:20 <ais523> Hiato: what about Merge('9','3')?
17:48:32 <ais523> ah, the divisible-by-3 can become divisible by 9
17:49:00 <Hiato> err, I revise my conjecture :P If one of the numbers is a multiple of three, the paths never converge, if both the numbers are multiples of three, there is not guarantee of a merge
17:49:15 <Hiato> as Merge('45','3') doesn't seem to work
17:49:52 <Slereah> "Equality. In printed books before the modern equal sign, equality was usually expressed with a word, such as aequales, aequantur, esgale, faciunt, ghelijck, or gleich, and sometimes by the abbreviated form aeq "
17:50:09 <Hiato> bbiab, supper calls :)
17:51:55 <Slereah> http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/vatican.exhibit/exhibit/d-mathematics/images/math01.jpg
17:52:04 <Slereah> Come on Euclid, can't you write correctly?
18:03:58 <Slereah> Found the Elements in greek.
18:07:12 <Slereah> Monads just can't give me a break.
18:18:56 -!- tusho has joined.
18:19:21 <ais523> bad timing BTW, because I leave here at 7 on Sundays
18:19:22 <Slereah> What do you want, universe?
18:19:26 <tusho> i have settled into a routine of starting with irssi&w3m it seems
18:19:42 <tusho> ais523: heh, very bad timing
18:19:52 <tusho> I was just going to work on ESO...
18:20:02 <ais523> we can still do some work on ESO
18:20:16 <ais523> and you can probably manage some of it without my help
18:22:38 <tusho> the eso forum is difficult to use with w3m
18:23:33 <tusho> ok, I think I'll try X
18:23:54 <Slereah> I think I will use esti for function definition.
18:24:05 <Slereah> It's what's used in Elements, apparently.
18:24:37 <Slereah> I'm not too sure how to do the arguments of a function next.
18:25:20 -!- tusho_ has joined.
18:25:42 <tusho> ok, now for epiphany
18:26:20 <tusho> ais523: do you think this is all superstition? I have a nagging feeling the crashes are entirely random. :P
18:26:44 <tusho> WHAT THE FUCK, I'm #11 on reddit
18:26:49 <tusho> with my 'hello esolangs reddit' post
18:27:06 <ais523> I think they're determinstic, mostly, but loading programs up in a different order won't help
18:27:13 <tusho> ais523: reddit.com
18:28:10 <tusho> maybe it's because I'm (obviously) subscribed to that reddit
18:28:17 <tusho> and it's hot on that reddit being the only thing there
18:28:21 <tusho> so it gets on my front page
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18:31:41 <tusho_> You said 40 minutes but it looks more like 5 now.
18:31:51 <ais523> more like 27, actually
18:31:59 <tusho_> ais523: you think it won't crash again?
18:32:06 <ais523> it depends on what you do
18:32:23 <tusho_> ais523: open a terminal :P
18:33:37 <tusho_> ais523: by the way, I enabled user dirs on eso-std.org
18:33:47 <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:33:54 <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:33:58 <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:34:14 <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:34:43 <tusho_> ais523: I was answering your question.
18:35:06 <tusho_> ais523: I said it before you asked.
18:35:09 <ais523> ah, the first one wasn't intended to be an answer to the question
18:35:12 <ais523> but you said it after I asked
18:35:18 <ais523> at least at this end of the connection
18:35:19 <tusho_> <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:19 <tusho_> <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:35:19 <tusho_> <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:35:28 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:28 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:35:28 <ais523> [18:36] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:36 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:36 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> cgi doesn't get enabled by default but I can
18:35:36 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:36] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:40 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> ais523: by the way, I enabled user dirs on eso-std.org
18:35:40 <ais523> [18:35] <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:35:40 <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:35:44 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> ais523: by the way, I enabled user dirs on eso-std.org
18:35:45 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <ais523> where are they in the filesystem?
18:35:45 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:35] <tusho_> http://eso-std.org/~ais523 -> /home/ais523/public_html
18:36:02 <ais523> then you answered the same question again
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18:36:27 <ais523> [18:38] <-- timotiis has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:36:32 <tusho_> <ais523> [18:38] <-- timotiis has left this server (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
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18:37:06 <tusho_> " and Akregator's built in web browser"
18:37:10 <tusho_> this is called 'konqueror'
18:37:19 <ais523> they use the same backend
18:37:25 <ais523> but Akregator is not Konqueror
18:37:31 <tusho_> ais523: I believe the component is actually called Konqueror
18:37:34 <ais523> it can't do file-management AFAIK
18:37:46 <tusho_> but akgregator will never end up feeding it a file url
18:38:02 <ais523> what if someone puts one in an RSS feed?
18:38:12 <tusho_> ais523: oh, and OS X can't use ELF, period
18:38:30 <tusho_> Which it inherits from NeXTStep (or whatever the CapS are)
18:38:38 <ais523> I would have thought it would be able to run them
18:38:51 <tusho_> ais523: Basically, OS X is what happens when you take NeXTStep, and some BSDs, and collide them together with blood, guts, and battle cries.
18:38:59 <tusho_> Then, you nurture its wounds until it's all happy.
18:39:04 <tusho_> Then, you make it pretty.
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18:39:39 <ihope> If it walks like a bar and talks like a bar, duck.
18:39:39 <tusho_> ihope ihope is the real ihope
18:39:50 <ais523> ihope: that's a pretty neat antisig
18:39:58 <ais523> IRC so needs join messages
18:40:01 <ais523> as well as quit messages
18:40:07 <tusho_> ais523: that's SO abusable
18:40:24 <ais523> tusho_: well, they wouldn't show if you couldn't make a commen
18:40:34 <tusho_> speaking of spambots, I wrote a script that takes a text file and outputs a script that my okotterance co-ordinator can use
18:40:37 <ais523> as in, you don't get a join message if unvoiced
18:40:38 <tusho_> you can configure how many clones it uses
18:40:57 <ais523> I don't see how it would be any more abusable than privmsg, then
18:41:09 <tusho_> my script is very abusable though
18:41:16 <ais523> so why did you say it would be?
18:41:17 <tusho_> since you can have an infinite send speed
18:42:06 <ais523> can't you do that with privmsgs?
18:42:33 <tusho_> "You have been guided to this site by a divine light of healing and creative energy of Reiki. "
18:42:44 <tusho_> ais523: no, because of the forced delay when you spam
18:42:48 <tusho_> and of course the flood protection
18:42:56 <tusho_> if you have 100 bots, you can make messages 100x faster
18:43:07 <ais523> I don't see why join messages would be any different
18:43:20 <ais523> they would presumably be force-delayed for spammers too
18:44:10 <tusho_> I like how that esolang site contains pages called 'Rebirthing' and pages called 'Cross-cultural communication in English'
18:48:27 <ais523> is it just me, or has anagolf died?
18:49:21 <tusho_> ais523: it's always like this
18:49:32 <tusho_> we just caused a blimp of activity
18:49:35 <ais523> ihope: http://golf.shinh.org/
18:50:09 * ihope downloads tomsrtbt, sets up a virtual machine, etc.
18:51:07 <ihope> Gee, I think the Linux computer has lots more free space. I'm going to go use it, I think.
18:51:30 <tusho_> ihope: What, are you doing rootnomic?
18:51:42 <tusho_> ihope: Fine, fine, I'll code it.
18:51:59 <tusho_> If only to stop tomsrtbt being used.
18:52:07 <ais523> ihope: limit its memory usage to 256.1 MB so as to annoy ehird
18:52:18 <tusho_> ais523: actually, he was just trying to get me to do it
18:52:43 <ais523> I did consider the possibility that he was just pretending to do something to encourage you to do it first
18:52:48 <tusho_> ihope: virtualbox is installing, happy now? ;) #ircnomic
18:53:07 <tusho_> ais523: oop, it's 5 minutes
18:55:13 <ais523> and it's only approximate
18:55:47 <tusho_> ais523: my clock is ntp'd I believe
18:55:59 <ais523> mine was manually ntp'd
18:56:08 <ais523> from time to time, I synched it
18:56:16 <ais523> off an Internet server
18:56:21 <ais523> seems that can't be done in Hardy, though
18:56:30 <ais523> it's automatic NTP or none
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19:18:28 <Slereah> What do you want, universe
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19:47:08 <augur> What's wrong, Robin
19:47:12 <Slereah7> I think I might actually be able to pull off some ancient greek functional language.
19:47:40 <Slereah7> Diophantus had a whole system of it.
19:47:45 <tusho> Slereah7: YES BATMAN!
19:48:08 <Slereah7> I think that with that and some flat out invention, I might be able to do something
19:49:03 <tusho> Slereah7: If you do, I'll implement it,
19:50:05 <tusho> (diff) (hist) . . N Chris Barker; 18:01 . . (+78) . . 58.56.109.6 (Talk) (RipfxvQbmrCYuf)
19:50:07 <Slereah7> tusho : If you missed the previous discussion
19:50:16 <tusho> Slereah7: Probably?
19:50:22 <Slereah7> The idea was to make a functional language with stupid functions
19:50:48 <Slereah7> Like Ackermann, McCarthy 91, Look and say
19:51:05 <Slereah7> Then, someone proposed greek letters
19:51:05 <Slereah7> And I had the idea of doing it totally in greek, dude
19:51:22 <augur> you can represent all the rational numbers in an infinite list in which ALL rational numbers are reachable
19:52:08 <augur> i know, but i just figured out how to do it :)
19:52:21 <Slereah7> Actually, every definable number is countable
19:52:46 <Slereah7> Uncountable sets are for non-constructive math.
19:52:59 <augur> i figured out how to do it :D
19:53:02 <augur> im pleased with myself
19:54:09 <tusho> Slereah7: should we revive unikitten
19:55:03 <ihope> Slereah7: the set of all definable numbers, you mean?
19:55:22 <ihope> aleph_1 and its buddy omega_1 aren't countable, but they're definable.
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19:59:25 <ihope> augur: now figure out how to represent every rational number as a number with a finite decimal expansion such that if one rational number is bigger than another, its representation is bigger than the other's.
20:01:33 <augur> i think the way i figured out makes it possible to not even need to store the list but just compute the nth rational of the list on the fly
20:02:17 <augur> not that the list for doing that would be efficient in space usage, since it'd have repetition of /value/ but
20:03:13 <ihope> 1/2, 1/3, 2/3, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5, etc.?
20:03:47 <augur> no, that misses the rationals > 1 :)
20:04:47 <ihope> 1/1, 1/2, 2/2, 2/1, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, 3/2, 3/1, 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/3, 4/2, 4/1, etc.
20:04:47 <Slereah7> Maybe I should make two languages in greek
20:05:00 <augur> 1/1 -- 1/2 ; 2/1, 2/2 -- 1/3, 2/3, 3/3 ; 3/1, 3/2, 3/1 -- ...
20:05:13 <Slereah7> Because Greek arithmetical notation seems eso enough
20:05:46 <augur> tho redundancy as i have it works to make it trivially findable
20:06:47 <augur> atleast i think so.. lol
20:13:29 <augur> i thunk, therefore noone ever disputes me.
20:13:53 <Slereah7> "Notation and definition of Diophantos"
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20:26:34 <augur> are we sure that real numbers are uncountably infinite?
20:32:24 <augur> thats because there are reals which aren't repetitive, nor finitely long, right?
20:32:37 <Hiato> right o - third and final conjecture for this evening :)
20:33:05 <Hiato> augur: more like, what's 'twixt 1/3 and 1/4 ... say 1/5 etc etc etc
20:33:19 <Hiato> http://rafb.net/p/Q0NgAz40.html
20:33:27 <Hiato> here is the implementation
20:33:44 <Hiato> augur: a real/floating point/non-intergral number is a fraction, right?
20:33:57 <augur> gotta go tho bye :)
20:34:05 <Hiato> so, you can arbitrarily sub-divide any range between any two fractions
20:34:35 <Hiato> into any more arbitrary ranges
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20:36:27 * Hiato breathes a sigh of relief
20:40:07 <Hiato> tusho, can I ask you to glance quickly over my latest and greatest conjecture?
20:40:07 <tusho> http://rafb.net/p/Q0NgAz40.html?
20:40:07 <Hiato> want an explanation as to what it is and why it's so cool? :P
20:40:07 <Hiato> heh, well spotted slereah
20:40:07 <Hiato> however, Slereah, would you like to know? :P
20:40:07 <tusho> but your code style sucks ;P
20:40:07 <Hiato> heh, tusho, I just scraped out of delphi :P
20:40:44 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:40:58 <tusho> Hiato: remove the space before function arguments
20:41:06 <tusho> and use do_it instead of DoIt for function names
20:41:20 <Hiato> anyway, it goes like this. Take any arbitrary integer, x, and if it is positive, find the sum of its digits and one and subtract that from it. If x is negative, find the sum of its digits and one and add that to it. Recursively apply this procedure and it is conjectured that for all of x, it will reduce to the pattern: -1;1;-1;1...
20:41:33 <tusho> apart from that, just add some more whitespace, really
20:41:40 <tusho> it's better than a lot of python! :-P
20:43:11 <Hiato> so, on the conjecture?
20:43:29 <tusho> Hiato: I'll think about it
20:43:29 <tusho> btw. http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/ <-- PEP8, python style guide
20:43:32 <tusho> written by guido himself
20:44:06 -!- Slereah7 has joined.
20:44:06 <tusho> http://svn.browsershots.org/trunk/devtools/pep8/pep8.py <-- a script that complains if your code doesn't conform to it
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20:51:33 <tusho> Slereah7: Give me somethign to feed that mu function will you?
20:55:34 <tusho> I have ideas for le eso os!
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20:58:56 <tusho> Slereah: Ideas for an eso os. Wanna hear?
20:59:53 <tusho> Slereah: Well, you know the lazy, strongly-typed self-rewriting language we talked about yesterday?
21:00:21 <tusho> Slereah: Yeah, but ... before we went totally crazy about it.
21:01:06 <tusho> Slereah: Well, all of that, but PURELY FUNCTIONAL and REFERENTIALLY TRANSPARENT.
21:01:21 <tusho> For instance, the whole program rewrites itself into a lazy list of things like PutStr "hi"
21:01:36 <tusho> which then get performed in order by the program engine (thus eventually forcing the whole list)
21:01:50 <tusho> So the program is of type [IO], I guess.
21:01:54 <tusho> Isn't that awesome?
21:02:36 <tusho> So, you write the OS. In that.
21:02:45 <Slereah> I dunno. I'll have to understand it first
21:03:22 <tusho> Slereah: Well, basically
21:03:24 <tusho> You have a program
21:03:29 <tusho> and it lazily rewrites itself into something like
21:03:46 <tusho> [Print "Hello world", Print "How Are You?"]
21:03:51 <tusho> Slereah: So what the interpreter does
21:03:53 <tusho> is take the program
21:03:54 <Slereah> How can something rewrite itself lazily?
21:04:00 <tusho> and force it to evaluate the first element, and performs it
21:04:04 <tusho> Slereah: Well, that's the hard bit.
21:04:09 <tusho> But we discussed that yesterday.
21:04:15 <tusho> The new part is that it's purely functional & ref transp.
21:04:30 <tusho> Slereah: Oh, and installing a program amounts to the OS rewriting itself to include it.
21:04:50 <oerjan> tusho: that's a bit awkward if you want to do input and have the rest depend on it
21:05:06 <tusho> oerjan: yes, that was what I thought
21:05:11 <tusho> GetLine rewrites into "the input"
21:05:12 <oerjan> that's why the IO monad, after all
21:05:17 <tusho> oerjan: because, after all, it is a self-rewriting language
21:05:38 <tusho> oerjan: clever, no? >:D
21:06:55 <oerjan> ok but that's not referentially transparent
21:07:06 <Slereah> I'm a lot more excited by ARITHMETICA
21:07:24 <Slereah> (It's the srs one, not the Ackermann one)
21:07:35 <oerjan> (because if you have two GetLine's they don't need to become the same thing)
21:07:47 <tusho> um, that is the part I haven't worked out
21:07:55 <tusho> but, basically, when the monadic action of GetLine happens, it's morphed into the string
21:09:00 <oerjan> actually most of this works but not putting all the actions in a list
21:09:08 <tusho> oerjan: ok then, forget that part
21:10:24 <tusho> oerjan: it is an interesting concept, though
21:10:31 <tusho> self-rewriting ... but lazy
21:12:04 <tusho> it certainly sounds like the OS TECHNOLOGY OF THE FUTURE
21:12:21 <tusho> the self-morphification and reflection of lisp as the very core of the language
21:12:26 <tusho> the mathematical elegance of laziness from haskell
21:12:32 <tusho> and the program-assurance of types
21:20:13 <tusho> Slereah: Opinions?
21:20:48 <Slereah> I'm working on ARITHMETICA
21:20:56 <Slereah> Hoping that I don't have to learn greek to do it
21:20:57 <Hiato> tusho: how far? :P
21:21:13 <tusho> Hiato: <tusho> Slereah: Ideas for an eso os. Wanna hear?
21:25:19 <Slereah> How would it be done to use a whole set of non-standard symbols for a programming language?
21:25:24 <Hiato> Wow, could you, er, idiotize this (for a lack of a better word)
21:26:06 <tusho> just make a new encoding
21:26:12 <tusho> 97=FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER
21:26:17 <tusho> Slereah: Just in your program
21:26:20 <tusho> interpret the bytes
21:26:30 <tusho> if c == 'a': # c = flying spaghetti monster
21:26:31 <Hiato> tusho: In that case, as I understand it, impossible to implement, but potentially awesome :)
21:26:40 <tusho> Hiato: not impossible, no
21:26:50 <Hiato> in fact, this would open up a very very interesting direction in programming
21:26:55 <Slereah> Yes, but I mean, how would it display in the interpreter, graphically?
21:26:58 <tusho> Slereah: are you SURE they aren't in unicode
21:26:59 <Hiato> well, tusho, then I evidently don't understand right :P
21:27:06 <tusho> and, well, you'd draw a picture and use a graphics library
21:27:13 <tusho> That is, of course, a giant fuss.
21:27:18 <Slereah> But important ones aren't.
21:27:26 <tusho> Slereah: Pick other ones.
21:27:26 <Slereah> Although maybe there's close ones.
21:27:34 <tusho> Or ask the unicode consortium to add 'em.
21:27:38 <Slereah> Also, there's plenty of exposant, how to?
21:29:03 <Slereah> Hey, there's actually Diophantus minus symbol
21:29:52 <tusho> Slereah: i dunno lol
21:30:02 <tusho> Make code html and use <sup>
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22:37:40 <Slereah7> Can the esowiki do superscript?
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23:05:41 <Slereah7> I'm not too sure what to use for variables in arithmetica
23:06:13 <Slereah7> There's the sigma for single-variables, but he doesn't seem to use anything consistent with multiple ones.
23:06:33 <Slereah7> It's a number with two letters in superscript, but the letter change often
23:12:00 <tusho> 'unwrapped' conditionals
23:12:10 <tusho> else fact n = n * fact (n-1)
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23:13:42 <tusho> I think it's actually distantly related to prolog
23:13:58 <tusho> else if result == n * fact (n-1)
23:14:08 <tusho> then fact n = result
23:14:27 <tusho> The conditionals 'predict' the future variables.
23:14:30 <tusho> Maybe it interests oerjan ;P
23:15:34 <tusho> ihope: I believe you can do nondeterminism with it.
23:15:48 <tusho> if x `elementOf` xs then choose xs = x
23:16:41 <ihope> Though I'd rather write that as if xs = x then x `elementOf` xs.
23:16:50 <ihope> s/if xs/if choose xs/
23:17:01 <tusho> ihope: Well, that's confusing.
23:17:10 <tusho> Mine is fairly simple: You just 'unwrap' the conditionals outside the function
23:17:20 <ihope> It's more logically correct. :-)
23:18:00 <tusho> if ys `sorted` xs then sort xs = ys
23:19:01 <ihope> Something like if x `elementOf` xs then choose xs = x would kind of imply that choose xs is equal to every element of x.
23:19:27 <ihope> Which is... oofy unless all elements of xs are equal.
23:19:35 <ihope> s/would kind of/would seem to/, then.
23:19:38 <tusho> 'If x is a member of xs, then choosing an element from xs results in x'
23:19:44 <tusho> Makes sense to me.
23:19:57 <tusho> ihope: Yours makes the membership of xs an afterthought.
23:19:59 <tusho> Mine makes it the basic idea
23:20:00 <ihope> s/results/can result/.
23:20:25 <ihope> s/Or not/Or else not/
23:20:51 <ihope> Be back in a moment.
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23:28:50 <ihope> As I'm sure you can tell.
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