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00:54:12 <ehird> FDA's revised 2009 food pyramid: http://imgur.com/b1b55.jpg
00:55:10 <oerjan> that would be the RFDA, i assume
00:55:51 <oerjan> reddit food and drugs administration
00:56:15 <ehird> actually, in response to conservative think-tanks claiming the new chart was too revolutionary and untested, it has been modified: http://imgur.com/QUU57.jpg
00:56:24 * oerjan hasn't got around to reddit today yet
00:56:38 <ehird> oerjan: you work really modally, don't you?
00:57:40 <ehird> oerjan: you browse your interwebs one site after another in huge binges :D
00:57:45 <oerjan> i'm still stuck in the iwc forum, which i read only thursdays and sunday
00:57:55 <ehird> you have a webternet schedule.
00:58:35 <oerjan> that's actually the exception though. most others i visit once a day, when they update, or when rss tells me
01:00:21 <oerjan> at least once a day, that is. if i run out of the usual sites i often revisit
01:00:33 <oerjan> and i treat it all far too much like a schedule queue.
01:01:19 <pikhq> I have a webternet schedule. Its contents can be found in /dev/urandom.
01:01:47 <ehird> oerjan: you use an rss client?!
01:02:05 <oerjan> yes. it was introduced in IE 7
01:02:08 <ehird> hmm maybe IE does rss bookmark stuff nowadays.
01:02:24 <ehird> he's an old norwegian curmudgeon
01:02:26 <pikhq> oerjan: IE is why we can't have nice things.
01:02:27 <ehird> also, will never switch
01:02:31 <ehird> pikhq: he also uses Hugs. WinHugs.
01:02:38 <oerjan> that also introduced tabs ;D
01:02:46 <pikhq> ehird: Is that still maintained¿
01:02:48 <ehird> pikhq: GHC doesn't have a Windows interface, don't you know. :)
01:02:54 <oerjan> and i read my email in pine, via putty
01:02:59 <ehird> Even its creator tells people to use GHC.
01:03:05 <ehird> WinHugs is also unmaintained.
01:03:38 <ehird> http://cvs.haskell.org/Hugs/pages/latest.htm ;; latest hugs releases: Nov 2003, Mar 2005, May 2006, September 2006
01:03:47 <ehird> Nov 2003 is the most recent major release.
01:04:02 <pikhq> oerjan: I am sticking your hard drive in a degaussing coil and destroying your software installation disks and mandating a filter that repeats this process if a Windows executable is discovered on your Internet link.
01:07:27 <oerjan> that sounds very aggressive of you. are you sure you have taken your vitamins?
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01:14:45 <ehird> let's give oerjan a macintosh with system 7!
01:14:51 <ehird> (Yeah yeah I'm old-mac geeking shut up.)
01:14:58 <ehird> Anyway, back to the joke.
01:15:05 <ehird> It'll be a huge upgrade!
01:15:29 <ehird> pikhq: you do know that A/UX basically ran macintosh binaries via an API emulation layer sort of thing right?
01:15:42 <ehird> still restricted to a fixed memory size etc
01:15:53 <pikhq> But it was also UNIX.
01:16:04 <ehird> pikhq: Not really.
01:16:08 <ehird> Only the bottom layer was Unix.
01:16:16 <ehird> Not one thing on top
01:17:04 <ehird> It was basically the Macintosh operating system with hardware interaction replaced with Unix calls.
01:18:03 <pikhq> The A/UX Finder was a native UNIX program.
01:18:39 <ehird> pikhq: Remember that in the days we're talking about, the Finder WAS the operating system, more or less.
01:19:44 <pikhq> Also, it totally did X.
01:20:01 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test { f (Test f) } deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 . fix (Test . Just)
01:20:59 <ehird> pikhq: It did X, yes… you could either boot into X, in which case it was 0% Macintosh, or you could use an application that did X.
01:21:05 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:21:08 <ehird> That application simply ran X on top of the Macintosh OS.
01:21:23 <ehird> It was not integrated in any sense; you could port it to a non-A/UX Macintosh System Software!
01:21:40 <ehird> pikhq: And that X server had a fixed RAM of, IIRC, 8 megabytes.
01:21:49 <ehird> Hope you don't run any graphically intensive programs. …like Mozilla…
01:22:02 <oerjan> bah ghc cannot deduce it has all the prerequisites for the instance :(
01:22:32 <ehird> oerjan: "Test { f (Test f) }"?
01:22:34 <ehird> The syntax be unvalid.
01:22:54 <ehird> oerjan: data Test f = Test (Test f) might be inferable
01:23:10 <oerjan> but that's not what i want
01:23:22 <ehird> that's what she said
01:23:39 <ehird> *now* you remember!
01:23:48 <oerjan> i see it cannot realize f gives a Show
01:24:05 <ehird> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = (Show f) => Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:24:09 <oerjan> it should have been able to add that prerequisite, i think
01:24:23 <ehird> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = (Show (f a)) => Test (f (Test f)) deriving Show; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:24:34 <ehird> 01:24] EgoBot: /tmp/input.19244.hs:2:0:
01:24:34 <ehird> [01:24] EgoBot: parse error (possibly incorrect indentation)
01:24:42 <oerjan> also => in data do nothing for instances
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01:29:37 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:30:12 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:30:34 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:30:36 <EgoBot> /tmp/input.5190.hs:1:30: cannot parse LANGUAGE pragma
01:30:54 <oerjan> what, only _one_ allowed?
01:31:34 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 $ fix (Test . Just)
01:32:09 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . Just)
01:32:12 <EgoBot> Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just Just
01:33:50 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f) where { show (Test x) = show x }; main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[]))
01:33:52 <EgoBot> [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[
01:36:30 <pikhq> oerjan: That's evil. Truly evil.
01:37:34 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); deriving instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f); main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[]))
01:38:18 <oerjan> GregorR-L: for some incomprehensible reason that gave me a DCC listing of the root directory
01:39:06 <oerjan> !haskell {-# LANGUAGE FlexibleContexts, UndecidableInstances, StandaloneDeriving #-} import Data.Function(fix); data Test f = Test (f (Test f)); deriving instance Show (f (Test f)) => Show (Test f); main = putStrLn . take 100 . show $ fix (Test . (:[]))
01:39:09 <EgoBot> Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test [Test
01:39:20 <ehird> oerjan: so what's the point of this again? :D
01:39:25 <oerjan> always another pragma to add :)
01:39:54 <ehird> oerjan: you should use ghc
01:39:59 <ehird> it has pragmas up the wazoobutt
01:40:15 <oerjan> ehird: a recursive datatype with flexible constructor?
01:40:27 <ehird> but whyfort art touh
01:40:37 <pikhq> ehird: GHC has everything.
01:40:40 <pikhq> And a kitchen sink.
01:41:14 <ehird> argh who is that person thingy
01:41:38 <pikhq> BTW, oerjan: WinGHCi.
01:41:39 <pikhq> http://code.google.com/p/winghci/
01:43:12 <ehird> oerjan: since I'm kind, have a ghc windows installer link:
01:43:22 <ehird> oerjan: http://haskell.org/ghc/dist/6.10.4/ghc-6.10.4-i386-windows.exe
01:43:58 <ehird> oerjan: then unpack http://winghci.googlecode.com/files/WinGhci-1.0-bin.zip to C:\WinGHC or something, and run Install.exe
01:44:21 <ehird> then .hs files open in it, and WinGhci.exe is the REPL.
01:45:19 <ehird> pikhq: we lost him.
01:45:21 <ehird> it was a good effort.
01:45:36 <pikhq> oerjan: YOU SHALL DO PENANCE FOR YOUR SINS!
01:45:53 <pikhq> Also, might I recommend installing Cygwin, or Gentoo GNU/Windows, or Debian GNU/Windows?
01:46:10 <ehird> oerjan: if you open this file, it'll change winhugs to use ghc (which it will install) automatically, with no clicking: http://download.mozilla.org/?product=firefox-3.5.1&os=win&lang=en-US
01:46:23 <ehird> pikhq: do those latter two exist?
01:46:34 <ehird> I'm pretty sure the Debian one doesn't
01:46:39 <ehird> pikhq: googling says no.
01:46:49 <pikhq> Dammit, I could've *sworn* Debian had one.
01:46:53 <pikhq> Gentoo does, though.
01:47:03 <ehird> oerjan: Why do you use IE, incidentally?
01:47:04 <oerjan> you must think i am _blind_ too
01:47:13 <oerjan> it came with the computer
01:47:50 <pikhq> ehird: http://debian-interix.net/ and http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
01:48:02 <ehird> oerjan: and why do you further the pain of web designers and developers everywhere instead of briefly installing a browser? :(
01:48:17 <pikhq> Gentoo Prefix is for a variety of UNIXes, including Interix.
01:48:30 <ehird> Interix doesn't count.
01:48:49 <pikhq> But it's an entire POSIX subsystem!
01:49:03 <pikhq> Which just needs a credible userspace!
01:49:12 <ehird> I could accept cygwin + a replacement for the WM.
01:49:23 <ehird> Like, you can get Blackbox for Windows, for instance.
01:49:32 <ehird> Just make one that uses an X11 window manager, somehow.
01:49:43 <ehird> (Get it to decorate a fake window of the right size around the Windows window?)
01:49:44 <pikhq> That is significantly harder to do.
01:49:58 <pikhq> ReactOS with some patching?
01:50:05 <ehird> Naw. You can do it with just plain Windows.
01:50:23 <ehird> You'd be able access all of the Windows stuff seamlessly from "X11", and also run X11 apps just the same
01:50:51 <ehird> pikhq: OS X/X11 is something I've been considering a while
01:51:10 <pikhq> ehird: That would be pretty awesome.
01:51:15 <ehird> If you set your background to whatever background you'll use in X11, hide the dock, hide the menu in the Finder and X11 (there's a hack to do this),
01:51:20 <ehird> and set the X11 to open on startup,
01:51:26 <ehird> then set X11 to fullscreen with meta keys going to X11,
01:51:40 <ehird> you'll have a certified Unix with X11, running on the sturdy Quartz system.
01:51:52 <ehird> Unfortunately, you won't inherit Quartz's PDF base and compositing, but you won't get any graphical glitches.
01:52:01 <ehird> (unless they're part of X11's logic rather than its hardware interaction).
01:52:19 <pikhq> BTW, I discovered something somewhat interesting today: Étoilé. Basically, it intends to be GNUstep minus the suck.
01:52:31 <ehird> pikhq: Étoilé is based on GNUstep, actually.
01:52:33 <pikhq> (which is to say, it intends to be OS X plus suck minus suck)
01:52:43 <pikhq> ehird: Yes, and it removes the suck.
01:52:50 <ehird> Nextstep isn't OS X at all.
01:52:51 <pikhq> Thus, GNUstep minus the suck quite literally.
01:52:58 <ehird> It's very markedly different.
01:53:06 <ehird> Etoile is kinda cool but ehh
01:53:13 <ehird> The application set sucks at the moment
01:53:22 <ehird> And it's built on X11 for backwards compatibility, except you're meant to use all its apps.
01:53:29 <ehird> (Well, okay, it's built on X11 because gnustep is and it's there.)
01:53:38 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the main reason I've not switched.
01:53:48 <pikhq> (to at least try it out)
01:54:03 <ehird> But really, they'd best achieve their application-deemphasising goal with their own OS.
01:54:10 <ehird> It's fundamentally a compromise, but it's a purist compromise, so to speak.
01:54:37 <ehird> Their Objective-C Smalltalk is nice, though.
01:55:01 <pikhq> I kinda wish they'd at *least* not build it on X.
01:55:26 <pikhq> But, yeah, it totally seems like something that'd be worth doing from the OS on up.
01:55:55 <ehird> I basically see Unix/X11 as a dead end; you really can't transcend past the systems we have today, because if you try to, you run into its fundamentally exposed implementation details.
01:56:09 <ehird> It is irritating that writing an OS involves so much stuff.
01:56:18 <ehird> And, of course, there's always the lure of replacing the hardware. Sigh.
01:56:54 <pikhq> The UNIX *concept* doesn't seem like much of a dead end.
01:57:09 <ehird> pikhq: It isn't as much so, but Plan 9 ends the line.
01:57:21 <pikhq> Okay, fair enough.
01:57:43 <ehird> In becoming more flexible, you realise that the idea of a hierarchy (what a stupid structure! so restricted for no reason…) of "files" of bytes is not the natural way to represent pretty much anything.
01:58:06 <ehird> Not your personal files; hierarchies are an unnatural way to organise things and have a large cognitive overhead.
01:58:25 <ehird> Not the interfaces; because if they're so great at it, why have C? Why not just have files and a "file FFI", so to speak?
01:58:33 <ehird> Because an array of bytes isn't directly usable.
01:58:51 <pikhq> Unless you generalise and say that everything is an object, and "files" are just named objects...
01:58:52 <ehird> But what, you say, of tools? To which I reply, why are tools and functions separate?
01:59:01 <ehird> pikhq: But, see, a name isn't really the best way to go about it.
01:59:06 <ehird> That's such a restricted way of doing it.
01:59:10 <ehird> pikhq: And that still separates memory and disk.
01:59:50 <pikhq> So, you want something truly, radically different.
02:00:27 <pikhq> I'd like to see it. (no, really; there's been like 0 change in operating system design since the 80s)
02:00:35 <ehird> Yes, I do want something radically different.
02:01:19 <ehird> My plan is to start just above the BIOS (i.e. the operating system; though my plan makes it a rather vague notion); it's impossible to replace the BIOS in the AMD64 environment and I don't think making my own hardware will be too successful.
02:02:13 <ehird> The basic critic would probably be "providing things like garbage collection in the OS is bloat and restrictive!", and my reply is that (a) since everything is the operating system, there is no real "bloat" and (b) a unified sewerage system is restrictive, too.
02:04:04 <pikhq> So, one thing you'd be doing is "fuck filesystems"; the hard drive would be nothing more than nonvolatile object store...
02:04:14 <ehird> pikhq: SSD-optimised, man. :)
02:04:39 <ehird> pikhq: But anything that stores things on disk is a filesystem.
02:05:24 <pikhq> Well, fine. Screw the idea of "the filesystem is a tree of files".
02:06:45 <ehird> Additionally, screw the idea of kernels, more or less.
02:06:58 <ehird> Also, screw the idea of binary blobs as processes; I want a damn unified object system.
02:07:06 <pikhq> That's significantly harder to do (but vaguely feasible)
02:07:35 <ehird> Also, screw just about every orthodox notion in GUIs. (Subclause: Obey Fitt's Law vehemently. I *will* make the mouse cool again, dammit.)
02:07:56 <pikhq> Also the Law of Least Surprise?
02:08:22 <ehird> Raskin had a wonderful thing about that; intuitiveness is meaningless. It means, in common parlance, "familiar".
02:08:42 <ehird> The goal of a UI should be, when it has been learned, as close to zero cognitive overhead as possible.
02:08:52 <ehird> The focus should be on the task and nothing else; this isn't really possible, but you should approach it.
02:09:00 <pikhq> "Least surprise" just means minimal cognitive overhead, really.
02:09:10 <ehird> Raskin's ideas are pretty much perfect.
02:09:17 <ehird> I want to version every object, pretty much.
02:09:29 <ehird> Always undo, never prompt ("formatting a disk" shut up that's niche)
02:09:32 <pikhq> Instead of, say, the Windows model of "AIIIYIIII! I MUST YELL AT YOU AT RANDOM!!!"
02:09:58 <ehird> YOU HAVE CONNECTED A DEVICE TO YOUR COMPUTER
02:10:13 <ehird> WINDOWS: FIGHTING SECONDS-LATER AMNESIA SINCE 198— WHAT WAS I SAYING AGAIN?
02:10:22 <pikhq> Those freaking "notifications" must die.
02:10:33 <pikhq> KDE, sadly, has them.
02:10:39 <pikhq> (at least you can turn them off there)
02:10:56 <ehird> Notifications should be when someone talks to you, pretty much.
02:11:02 <ehird> That's basically it, apart from things like system upgrades.
02:11:29 <ehird> Oh, one UI want that a lot of people overlook: Stable.
02:11:39 <ehird> if you wave your mouse around everywhere, things don't pop down and out and around.
02:11:52 <ehird> Yeah, some discrete hover effects are okay and the like.
02:12:00 <pikhq> ehird: So, at most a highlight effect?
02:12:02 <ehird> But a pixel's move shouldn't cause a gigantic popup menu.
02:12:18 <pikhq> This goes back to law of least surprise.
02:12:21 <ehird> pikhq: It's a general principle, really; the interface should only change more than a little in response to you actually do anything.
02:12:34 <pikhq> (it's amazing how much of good design boils down to that)
02:13:36 <ehird> I've always appreciated a little bit of understated eye candy in UIs.
02:13:41 <ehird> It helps direct the eyes, I think.
02:14:13 <pikhq> Understated, certainly.
02:14:30 <pikhq> So long as you're not forced to actually pay attention to it.
02:14:37 <pikhq> (which is just distracting)
02:15:34 <ehird> The main blocker for my OS is that I don't want to use C and I have a distrust of bootstrapping.
02:15:56 <ehird> And writing a super-speedy high-level language implementation in assembly is how-do-i-put-this.
02:16:08 <pikhq> Absurdly difficult.
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02:16:40 <pikhq> The only commonly used language that's easy to get running from assembly is C.
02:17:35 <ehird> But C isn't really an option… it doesn't fit.
02:18:47 <pikhq> And, of course, C had that as a design goal.
02:19:21 <ehird> "C (the PDP-11 assembler that thinks it's a language)" — jwz
02:20:10 <ehird> I'm also trying to incorporate interwebby things into it from the start.
02:20:28 <ehird> For instance: On the webternets, documents are volatile: nobody needs to ask you to change an object they own.
02:20:52 <pikhq> Hush. C is not a PDP-11 assembler.
02:20:57 <pikhq> It's a PDP-7 assembler.
02:21:15 <ehird> That lead to me thinking about installing components (= sets of objects and methods), and I think using components directly from the 'net but caching them locally could work. On the other hand, that sounds like a leaky abstraction; like RPC and nfs.
02:21:21 <ehird> pikhq: Tell Zawinski :P
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04:09:04 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/mutation
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06:12:25 <coppro> I'm back from vacation, bringing with me several great^H^H^H^H^Hhorrible ideas
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06:19:21 <coppro> oh, ehird isn't here to criticize my ideas and/or explain how Haskell already does that
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13:35:50 <ehird> 22:19:21 <coppro> oh, ehird isn't here to criticize my ideas and/or explain how Haskell already does that
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13:37:53 <ehird> 20:09:04 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=User:Sgeo/mutation
13:38:11 <Sgeo> ehird, a game that I liked
13:38:13 <Sgeo> It died in 2005
13:38:30 <ehird> "...that on December 5, 2008, Activeworlds, Inc., renewed every single citizenship from 1995 to today for thirty days?"
13:38:38 <ehird> Looks like you missed it again :P
13:40:09 <ehird> "On March 3rd 2008 at approximately 7:45 PM, the world was upgraded to P-3750 from P-3000 by Flagg."
13:40:16 <ehird> Sgeo: Doesn't look dead to me?
13:41:44 <Sgeo> Mutation was one world in AW, I think that's a different world
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15:35:56 <ehird> I have mastered Safari
15:35:58 <ehird> and beat it with a stick
15:36:07 <ehird> By editing its internal interface files I have removed the google search field from the location field
15:36:28 <ehird> MINIMALISM WILL TRIUMPH
15:36:28 <ehird> —MINIMALIST HITLER!
15:37:10 <oerjan> any relation to tiny carl jung?
15:37:20 <ehird> Only if you're a BITCH.
15:37:24 <FireFly> ehird, fancy to screen your Safari?
15:37:40 <ehird> FireFly: As soon as I decide whether or not to obliterate the backwards/forwards buttons!
15:37:46 <ehird> I'm leaning towards "no"
15:38:09 <FireFly> Maybe I should clean up my Opera layout
15:38:14 <FireFly> But it's already quite slim
15:38:41 <ehird> FireFly: Look at every button or other UI element you haven't used in a week, and remove it.
15:38:52 <ehird> Do the same, but more conservatively, for the last 5 days.
15:39:03 <ehird> If you find yourself going through menus to use something all the time, add it back.
15:39:30 <FireFly> I've already hidden unnecessary stuff such as status bar and menu bar
15:40:12 * ehird fiddles with the .nib some more to remove the remaining space
15:40:14 <oerjan> ehird: does minimalist godwin's law only apply to twitter threads?
15:40:26 <ehird> oerjan: I... have no fucking clue :P
15:41:12 <oerjan> good, good. the conservatives will be pleased.
15:41:24 <oerjan> that you have no clue about fucking, that is.
15:41:43 <ehird> -_------------------
15:42:06 * oerjan isn't sure he can fully interpret that smiley
15:45:47 <ehird> Safari! You are under arrest for an UNREASONABLE amount of interface whitespace!
15:47:39 <oerjan> ehird: that's not whitespace. those are tiny wilderness preserves!
15:47:51 <ehird> Administrative debris, perhaps? ;-)
15:49:27 <oerjan> ehird: or actually, safari is the only browser to practice feng shui in its rendering
15:50:14 <oerjan> it would not be fortunate to draw anything in those spots
15:50:33 <Asztal> So that's why the tabs are upside-down
15:51:17 <oerjan> Asztal: actually, that is just in the western hemisphere
15:51:47 * oerjan is geographically confused
15:52:00 <pikhq> ehird: My webbrowser already *has* a minimalist interface.
15:52:22 <ehird> (1) I didn't talk to you, (2) key invocations count as part of an interface.
15:52:22 <pikhq> It's got a scrollbar to the left, a small bar showing the current location, and a minibuffer.
15:52:57 <pikhq> Minor difference with key invocations: at least the ones you're not using aren't in your face.
15:53:59 <ehird> That is completely irrelevant as any decent interface will be dimmed enough to be unnoticeable: there is still the overhead of remembering and utilising these invocations, just as there is with graphical elements.
15:54:07 <ehird> Graphical elements are usually superior because they are *discoverable*.
15:56:29 <FireFly> http://rapidfiles.net/images/87270tmp9.png <-- Never mind that I accidentally did a find for space
15:57:04 <ehird> That search would help when programming in Whitespace.
15:57:25 <FireFly> True, but a real IDE with syntax highlighting would be better
15:57:38 <FireFly> Even though highlighting whitespace is a bit ironical
15:58:11 <ehird> Ironical is an ironical word.
15:58:26 <ehird> FireFly: with so many tabs in one window i'd probably try the graphical preview tab thingy btw
15:58:32 <pikhq> ehird: And you have to discover them all the time.
15:59:10 <FireFly> But the problem is, each preview is really small anyway
15:59:14 <ehird> pikhq: but really, you're a linux/x11 user, of course you prefer shortcut-based programs because all your UIs suck :-P
15:59:18 <FireFly> But I use the hover-preview feature quite a lot
15:59:20 <ehird> FireFly: make it bigger?
15:59:39 <FireFly> Each preview is only the size of a tab?
16:00:01 <ehird> FireFly: If you use the graphical tab bar thing you can resize it to be bigger.
16:00:21 <FireFly> Yeah, but only in one direction (the height)
16:00:35 <ehird> FireFly: if you put it on the side maybe?
16:01:46 <FireFly> Well, I like my tabs as they are
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16:39:21 <ehird> maybe I should try running OS X/X11 :-D
16:43:41 <ehird> what wm/de should i use :D
16:46:55 <ehird> pikhq: mmmmmmmno :P
16:47:06 <ehird> I'll just install X11 to start with
16:47:10 <ehird> and use tw fuckin' m
16:47:20 <ehird> meanwhile, it'll be a fucking pain to get it all restored when I get bored
16:47:32 <pikhq> twm's a royal pain.
16:48:35 <ehird> i'd make a video of it booting up after this, but my iphone can't do that :(
16:48:56 <ehird> I should grab that X11 opening screen
16:49:00 <ehird> the alternating black/white
16:52:38 <ehird> not perfect but it'll do
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16:53:31 <ehird> i'm basically detonating a nuclear bomb to have a pretty light show here
16:53:36 <ehird> i'll have to put eeeeeeverything back manually
16:54:44 * ehird removes the Dock totally, replaces the Finder with X11
16:54:47 <ehird> I should keep backups.
17:02:52 <ehird> This is just ridiculous.
17:07:31 <ehird> i'm disabling every single part of mac os x that isn't vital, then replacing the Finder with X11
17:07:45 <ehird> the issue is that putting it all back will be a fucking pain
17:07:56 <ehird> coppro: well it involves moving a lot of system files around and then forgetting about them.
17:10:25 <ehird> also I'm having to switch windows by doing open -a 'app' in the terminal
17:10:27 <ehird> not even cmd-tab works
17:13:02 <ehird> coppro: anyway, how's it logical :P
17:18:07 <ehird> oh right i remember you hate apple because… actually i don't even recall you giving a reason
17:18:07 <ehird> Quartz is an apple technology anyway, so suck it
17:18:07 <ehird> meanwhile, x11 compiles slowly.
17:18:07 <coppro> I hate Apple because of their business practices
17:18:07 <coppro> nothing against their product
17:18:19 <pikhq> ehird: That's fekking crazy.
17:18:28 <ehird> if you have nothing against their product then removing the apple stuff would not warrant "logical"
17:18:31 <pikhq> This coming from a guy who hates his mouse.
17:18:32 <ehird> because I already bought it.
17:18:42 <ehird> pikhq: it's intermediate :P
17:18:56 <ehird> anyway there are better companies than apple to hate
17:19:22 <ehird> they comply by licenses, they release code they don't even have to, and it's an open platform… the iphone is a fuck up, but totally unrelated
17:19:53 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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17:24:12 <coppro> so while I was on vacation I had a horrible horrible idea
17:24:24 <ehird> if it doesn't involve murder it isn't horrible.
17:27:57 <coppro> sorry, got sidetracked
17:28:08 <ehird> yeah you should never d ooh shiny
17:28:40 <coppro> A programming language where each subexpression is, rather than interpreted and evaluated in some other manner, simply pattern matched against every available function
17:29:03 <ehird> ais523: tell coppro how mathematica works
17:29:18 <ehird> ais523: not like that :P
17:29:24 <ais523> but yes, it's all pattern matching behind the scenes
17:29:39 <ais523> combined with lots of calls out to C in an attempt to gain a semblence of efficiency
17:29:54 <ais523> also, see Thutu, which is like Mathematica but with a considerably smaller stdlib
17:30:03 <coppro> yes, but the idea is to take it to a level of horribleness
17:30:10 <ehird> mathematica is that horrible :P
17:30:12 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thutu
17:30:17 <ais523> or, as ehird says, mathematica
17:31:17 <pikhq> coppro: So, Haskell if *everything* were a case statement. You're mad, man.
17:31:28 <coppro> looking at Thutu, which doesn't seem like what I want
17:31:51 <ais523> what's wrong with it? is it something different from what you expected?
17:32:14 <coppro> Where can I declare my arbitrary pattern-matching functions to effectively alter the syntax
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17:34:49 <ais523> well, in Thutu, you're more or less doing that; it's just that there are two syntaxes to think about, the syntax of Thutu (fixed), and the syntax of the string it operates on (variable)
17:38:24 <coppro> but where's the pattern matching?
17:39:20 <ehird> alrighty, what WM should I use to start with!
17:41:54 <ais523> ehird: do you want a lightweight or heavyweight one?
17:42:12 <ais523> just because I haven't heard anyone hear claim they use it
17:42:12 <ehird> just want something simple but conventional to get me into OS X/Quartz/X11 mode
17:42:27 <ehird> and it's a single-tasking environment, so.
17:42:50 <ais523> fluxbox and xfce are the conventional relatively simple ones, aren't they?
17:43:58 <ehird> i hate fluxbox and xfce is a DE
17:45:41 <pikhq> I'm going to nominate that for "craziest damned thing done to OS X", mmkay?
17:46:18 <ais523> ehird: is this your classic mac box?
17:46:28 <ehird> that thing runs Mac OS 9.1
17:46:42 <ais523> I thought you were trying to get it to run Linux
17:46:48 <ehird> ais523: i'm basically making an X11/Unix system, except the X11 server runs on top of Quartz as the graphics backend
17:47:01 <ehird> Quartz is what powers OS X's regular GUI
17:47:06 <ais523> sort of like implementing X11 using GDI on Windows?
17:47:07 <ehird> so I'm disabling everything, setting X11 to start up fullscreen
17:47:11 <ehird> ais523: sorta, yeah
17:47:32 <ehird> it'll also use the keyboard/mouse from OS X's gui
17:49:05 <pikhq> ehird: Thou art mad.
17:49:16 <ehird> quite so good chap
17:49:24 <pikhq> It'd be totally awesome if OS X windows were being managed by the X11 window manager, though.
17:49:38 <pikhq> ... I'm not sure why you'd do that, mind, but it would be awesome.
17:51:16 <ehird> if this breaks, i love you guys! or something
17:51:49 <ehird> [ehird:~] % cd /System/Library/CoreServices
17:51:49 <ehird> [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % sudo mv Finder.app Finder.old.app
17:51:50 <ehird> [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] % sudo ln -s /Applications/MacPorts/X11.app/ Finder.app
17:51:50 <ehird> [ehird:/System/Library/CoreServices] %
17:51:54 <ehird> and now to restart
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17:54:50 -!- ehird has joined.
17:54:52 <ehird> Holy crap, it worked.
17:55:32 <ais523> do you have any easy way to start applications from here?
17:55:33 <ehird> It went a bit weird when I tried to restart, but starting it up manually... it just worked.
17:55:38 <ehird> ais523: twm menu, xterms
17:56:04 <ehird> 44 ?? 0:00.02 /bin/sh /Library/Parallels/Parallels Service.app/Conten
17:56:08 <ehird> ts/Resources/ParallelsDispatcherService start
17:56:28 <pikhq> All the elegance of OS X's Unixy underpinnings with all the beauty of X11. ... Wait, that can't be right.
17:56:52 <ehird> ugh a lot of vmware fusion stuff too
17:57:07 <ehird> lol, if I unfullscreen x11 i don't have any cursor
17:57:23 <pikhq> That must be done by Finder.app usually.
17:57:28 <ehird> just the blue startup background and the menubar :D
17:57:31 <ehird> and i'm going to disable the menubar
17:57:39 <ehird> so control-option-a will become my "YAY BLUE" key
17:57:52 <ehird> pikhq: also, hey, I have Finder.app open!
17:57:56 <ehird> it just happens to be a symlink to X11 ;-)
17:58:19 <ehird> it really works snappily, this
17:59:01 <ehird> ok, if i get rid of parallels and vmware fusion, i'll just have system stuff, the ui server, and x11
17:59:05 -!- not_from_mibbit has joined.
17:59:12 <ehird> hello not_from_mibbit/ais523
17:59:22 <ehird> um okay i need a browser for this thing
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17:59:45 <ehird> argh i hate sloppy focus
17:59:59 <ehird> hey pikhq! should i install gnome or kde on this? optimise for hilarity, not practicality.
18:00:09 <Deewiant> Gnome is always more hilarious
18:00:17 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm offended; I like gnome.
18:00:26 <pikhq> Run Gnome with Kwin.
18:00:40 <ehird> Kwin is the worst part of KD E:P
18:00:56 <pikhq> Fine, fine. Sawtooth and KDE.
18:00:59 <Deewiant> ehird: A gnome is more hilarious than some dragon any day
18:01:09 <pikhq> (yes, yes, the window manager GNOME hasn't used since 2002)
18:01:21 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't think Gnome's mascot is a gnome :-P
18:01:27 <ehird> Unless it's one of them foot-shaped gnomes.
18:01:33 <ehird> Your face is irrelevant.
18:01:55 <ehird> Wow, my mouse wheel works in w3m in an xterm.
18:02:02 <ehird> That's... unexpected.
18:02:39 <pikhq> ehird: X adds more features all the time, and terminal apps can does mouse.
18:02:59 <ais523> ehird: not just that, it handles clicks too
18:03:12 <ehird> that's less surprising
18:03:13 <ais523> is it that you have to double-click on links to follow them?
18:03:27 <ais523> and no, less handles the wheel without mouse handling
18:03:36 <ehird> Yes, but I knew you could handle the buttons
18:03:39 <ais523> as mouse wheel in a terminal with curses grabbing defaults to simulating up/down keypresses
18:03:46 <ehird> Anyway, I'm going to restart now to test the menu hid-- fuck, I don't know how to restart.
18:03:56 <ais523> ehird: just tell init to restart?
18:04:03 <ehird> No init; this is X11.
18:04:09 <ehird> Launchd probably has a shutdown command or whatever.
18:04:32 <ais523> try sudo telinit 6, they may have implemented telinit anyway
18:04:41 <ehird> shutdown Prepare for system shutdown
18:04:45 <ehird> "prepare" worries me
18:05:07 * ehird sudo shutdown -r now
18:05:09 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal").
18:05:38 <pikhq> ais523: They stopped using init years ago.
18:05:51 <ais523> pikhq: still, telinit is pretty easy to implement even without init
18:06:09 <ais523> you could probably implement it for Windows in a few lines of cmd batch script
18:07:22 -!- ehird has joined.
18:07:30 <ehird> the menu bar is still there but now i have a mouse in OS X mode
18:07:55 <ehird> if I open an OS X app, it goes to the blue OS X mode
18:07:57 <ehird> and opens it there
18:08:00 <ehird> it goes back to X11
18:08:04 <ehird> unintentional integration FTW!
18:10:29 <ais523> reminds me of how windows 3.1 ran dos apps
18:10:55 <ehird> btw it just happens because X11 defocuses for the new app, then when it closes it focuses X11 back :)
18:11:12 <pikhq> ais523: 3.1 had a DOS console. It only becomes fullscreen when the DOS app uses graphics routines.
18:11:33 <ais523> pikhq: yes, but nobody used the DOS console because it was rather buggy
18:11:41 <ais523> and you could set it to fullscreen console apps too
18:13:24 * pikhq is amazed that Microsoft released IE5 for Windows 3.1...
18:14:09 <pikhq> Okay, more amazing: Windows 3.11 stopped being sold in *2008*...
18:14:11 <ehird> okay guys, gnome or kde
18:15:14 <ais523> ehird: are you considering KDE 3 or 4?
18:15:31 <ais523> IMO, 4's still too buggy to really use day-to-day
18:15:36 <ais523> so I'd go for Gnome with that choice
18:15:54 <ehird> you may have been right, like, a year ago.
18:15:55 <ais523> all sorts of weird things happen when I try to use the packaged version here
18:16:03 <ais523> and I last tried a couple of months ago
18:20:30 <ehird> twm can grow a window but not shrink it
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18:21:38 <pikhq> Yeah, TWM doesn't... Do much.
18:22:41 * ehird realises he'll have to compile gnome or kde, ew
18:22:44 <ehird> that'll take years
18:24:22 <ais523> so it's not hard, just time-consuiming
18:28:04 <ehird> bah, I'm bored of this; how predictable
18:29:17 <ehird> sorry to disappoint but i'm reverting.
18:30:25 -!- ehird has quit ("Lost terminal").
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18:34:40 * coppro tries to think up a workable syntax for Stutter
18:34:54 <ehird> is that your rewriter thing?
18:35:20 <ehird> just have one rewrite rule, /regex/ → "replacement string"
18:35:24 <ehird> and a few primitives
18:35:33 <ehird> same fuckin' thing
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18:36:19 <coppro> pattern matching is a semantic element of a language; regexes are text processing
18:36:51 <ehird> regexps are just pattern matching on strings.
18:37:23 <ais523> it's rather INTERCAL-specific, but it's a domain-specific language that does pattern matching on trees
18:38:07 <ais523> it's documented in the C-INTERCAL Revamped Manual
18:38:10 <ais523> in one of the appendices
18:38:22 <ais523> I use it to write INTERCAL optimisers, it's a language specifically designed for just one thing
18:38:29 <ais523> ehird: nah, wrong manual
18:38:36 <coppro> I'm thinking that all "true" keywords will have to be delimited, say with #
18:38:56 <ais523> pattern matching doesn't need keywords
18:39:04 <coppro> you need some sort of built-ins
18:39:24 <ais523> pattern matching's TC even without built-ins
18:39:26 <coppro> because some constructs cannot be expressed in the language itself
18:39:43 <ais523> pretty rubbish language if that's the case
18:39:45 <coppro> for instance, you need to define pattern matching
18:40:01 <ais523> you can do that with pattern matching
18:40:07 <ais523> obviously, the regress will need to bottom out somewhere
18:40:22 <coppro> err.. man, that came out wrong. I meant that some constructs cannot be constructed with the language but must be expressed directly in it
18:40:30 <ais523> what are you thinking of?
18:40:36 <ais523> Thue is TC, to give you an idea of what I'm getting at
18:41:03 <coppro> right, but Thue has a built-in ::= construct
18:42:16 <coppro> furthermore, I want a type system
18:42:46 <ehird> Furthermore, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.
18:43:15 <coppro> and you need a mechanism to interface with it
18:43:28 <coppro> it's not a string-rewriting language
18:45:10 <coppro> pikhq's description was closest
18:45:27 <ais523> coppro: ah, ok, so it's more OIL-like than thutu-like
18:45:32 <ais523> term-rewriting, presumably
18:45:45 <ais523> OIL has a fixed type system, presumably you're going for something more flexible
18:46:03 <coppro> can you link to the C-INTERCAL manual, or is that in the package?
18:46:15 <ais523> it's in the package, or should be
18:46:25 <ais523> there's an online version somewhere too, try http://select.intercal.org
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18:49:13 <coppro> I'm not on Linux right now :/
18:50:36 <coppro> I'm trying to decide between true term rewriting and more traditional imperative evaluation, except using pattern matching to determine what to do in every instance
18:51:25 <coppro> the biggest headache is recursive constructs
18:52:31 <coppro> for j in { for i in foo do bar done} do {baz} done should clearly be allowed
18:53:18 <coppro> but what about without the braces?
18:55:46 <ais523> coppro: `` for the first set of braces
18:55:53 <ais523> or $() if you want it to nest
18:56:13 <coppro> ais523: no, I mean "for j in for i in foo do bar done do baz done"
18:56:18 <coppro> in theory it's parseable
18:56:27 <ehird> um that's trivially parsable
18:56:29 <ais523> trivially, Lua parses like that
18:56:41 <coppro> but writing a pattern matching rule for that is nasty
18:56:52 <ais523> not if you have recursive patterns
18:57:03 <ais523> actually, just go look up perl6 regexes, rather than reinventing the wheel
18:57:10 <ais523> as opposed to perl5 regexes, I think they do exactly what you want
18:57:23 <ais523> they aren't really regexes, just called that
18:57:25 <ehird> perl 6 regexes aren't
18:57:28 <ehird> also, stop saying "not regexes"
18:57:29 <ais523> they're more some sort of massive BNF
18:57:40 <coppro> get the freaking regexes out of your head
18:57:58 <ais523> coppro: the issue is, you seem to have a predefined concept of what a regex is
18:58:07 <ehird> ais523: said it better than i could have
18:58:12 <ais523> whereas what you're doing is /exactly/ the way regexes were generalised for, say, perl6 and cyclexa
18:58:21 <coppro> ais523: but I'm not looking for text replacement
18:58:27 <ehird> coppro: you're being stupid. stop that.
18:58:31 <ehird> it's not good to be stupid :P
18:58:43 <ais523> perl6 regexes do general pattern matching
18:58:49 <ais523> you can match them on arrays, for instance
18:58:54 <ais523> or complex data structures
19:01:36 <ais523> hmm... apparently emacs now shows PDFs
19:02:47 <coppro> ais523: hmm... reading the Apocalypse - still looks like text matching
19:03:10 <ais523> they start with the bits that perl5 programmers will understand
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19:04:56 <coppro> can you point out where it says you can match arbitrary structures in a non-string manner?
19:06:38 <pikhq> ais523: Emacs has a very hard time figuring out how to add impressive new features. ;)
19:06:38 <ais523> well, in perl6 you create the arbitrary structures from strings with the regices, which isn't quite what you're doing, but similar
19:06:51 <ais523> pikhq: they also added M-x butterfly, but I can't find a source saying what it does
19:07:31 <pikhq> ais523: xkcd reference.
19:07:42 <ais523> but just because it's an xkcd reference doesn't explain what it does
19:07:50 <pikhq> http://www.nabble.com/Support-for-butterfly-editing-td15349699.html
19:07:53 <coppro> I'm thinking something more like ML pattern matching
19:08:09 <ais523> <emacs> Command: Use butterflies to flip the desired bit on the drive platter.
19:09:04 <ais523> apparently you type it M-x butterfly C-M-c; they had to permute C-x M-c M-butterfly to get it to fit within the usual command sequences
19:11:07 <pikhq> That's not to get it to fit within the usual command sequences. That permutation is to press the butterfly key without physically having one.
19:11:28 <ais523> I'm trying to find the source of this thing to see how it's implemented
19:19:22 <ais523> ooh, one improvement in emacs 23 that might be everyday-useful
19:19:35 <ais523> you can now type C-x 8 RET in order to enter special characters by hex code or name
19:20:14 * ais523 C-x 8 RET GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA
19:20:17 <ais523> it even tab-completes!
19:20:56 <fizzie> Heh, a funny percentage indicator for "loading unicode character names" when I first pressed the tab.
19:26:08 <ais523> also, the new behaviour of C-l is useful, I've been using that a lot
19:26:26 <ais523> (I use emacs-snapshot, so I've had many of emacs 23's changes for ages)
19:27:11 <pikhq> Antialiasing is also nice.
19:35:14 -!- ehird has quit.
19:37:36 <fizzie> See what your senseless praise of emacs did! Now ehird has quit.
19:38:02 <ais523> M-x butterfly C-M-c would be a lot more useful if it could flip bits on other people's drives
19:39:25 <fizzie> Well, let's ask testlm-disk.pl about Emacs. "emacs is objectively superior... nice title animation, video, pictures?! it isn't an executable"
19:40:18 <fizzie> Also, aliens use rj45.
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20:04:30 <ehird> [19:07] pikhq: http://www.nabble.com/Support-for-butterfly-editing-td15349699.html
20:04:44 <ehird> that's lame, they should use the 1-bit-a-month error rate for non-ECC memory
20:04:53 <ehird> and calculate how long it should take to flip a bit in this file
20:04:56 <ais523> that's memory, not hard disk as in the comic
20:04:57 <ehird> then wait that long
20:05:07 <ehird> ais523: just map the portion of ram to disk, duh
20:05:08 <ais523> so it would have to be repeatedly loading files into memory, then writing them back out
20:05:11 <ehird> as in, automatically persisted
20:05:26 <ehird> anyway, I hate programs having more than one simple easter egg
20:06:22 <ehird> (a) they're amusing perhaps once (b) they are the most flagrant violation of the understanding that features have a cost possible (c) it takes time that could be spent doing better things and (d) referencing everything xkcd says is not funny
20:06:53 <ais523> ehird: but if people are kind enough to write and submit the easter egg, why not commit it
20:07:04 <ais523> also, IIRC INTERCAL is nothing /but/ easter eggs
20:07:15 <ehird> you know what i hate? when someone tries to rebut a whole line by trying to rebut one part of it
20:07:17 <ehird> and ignoring the others
20:07:36 <pikhq> ehird: It was added in misc.el, which isn't loaded by default.
20:07:48 <ais523> ehird: no, I'm just rebutting some of the points, a rebuttal for all of them would take quite a while and probably not fit in 510 characters
20:08:03 <ehird> ais523: your rebuttal was rebutted by one of my original points
20:08:06 <ehird> so it was utterly useless
20:08:09 <ais523> (d) seems to be irrelevant, as there's more than one xkcd comic in existence
20:08:26 <ais523> and having more interesting features motivates more people to help maintain them
20:08:46 <ehird> i've lost count how many times i've had this discussion, fuck it
20:09:07 <pikhq> ehird: I'm just going to say that Emacs is the posterchild for bloat and leave it at that.
20:09:21 <ehird> it goes deeper than that, but yes, i despise emacs
20:17:16 <bsmntbombdood> do you think it would be possible to use gps along with some accelerometers to calculate position to a few centimeters?
20:17:36 <ehird> with a very precise gps and very good accelerometers, yes :P
20:17:41 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: augmented reality stuff?
20:18:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: there's an iphone app for iirc the toronto train station thingy that overlays where to go for stations on top of the camera feed; i think it works on all iphones so i guess it works with camera + accelerometer; if not then that + gps
20:18:40 <ehird> prolly uses the camera image
20:18:46 <ehird> but the video i saw was quite good
20:19:09 <bsmntbombdood> the iphone can't have that good accelerometers in it
20:19:30 <ehird> and it's fairly regular
20:19:38 <ehird> so it probably relies a lot on the camera but it was very good
20:19:50 <ehird> i'm not sure how it works, really
20:20:04 <ehird> maybe the compass thingy, i think the iphone 3g s has one
20:21:07 <ehird> yeah, i really don't know; but it did it really well
20:21:18 <ehird> overlayed it perfectly and you could tilt it and it updated in less than a second
20:21:31 <ehird> so it's obviously possible with just a few tools
20:25:42 <ais523> you can make a bad accelerometer with a weight, a potentiometer, and a pair of springs
20:25:52 <ais523> presumably the good ones work on the same principle, but more accurately
20:29:15 <bsmntbombdood> would a gyro be helpful at all in addition with accelerometers
20:30:09 <ais523> gyro determines orientation, accelerometers determine movement
20:30:18 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: No, but it may be delicious.
20:30:28 <ais523> you can try to dead-reckon orientation from movement, but you'll probably mess up
20:31:33 <bsmntbombdood> so with a single gyro and a 1-access accelerometer you can dead reckon 2d position
20:31:54 <ais523> no, you'd need to accelerometers
20:32:18 <ehird> that's like saying "ehird jump"
20:32:22 <Gracenotes> uh.... what the heck is Gorm and why do I have it installed on my computer?
20:32:24 <ais523> the setup you mentioned couldn't detect the device being moved sideways wrt the accelerometer
20:32:37 <ehird> GNUstep Developer Tools - Gorm
20:32:37 <ehird> Gorm stands for "Graphical Object Relationship Modeller" and is GNUstep's easy- to-use interface designer. In the following sections you will learn more ...
20:32:45 <ehird> GORM is Grails' object relational mapping (ORM) implementation. Under the hood it uses Hibernate 3 (an extremely popular and flexible open source ORM ...
20:32:59 <bsmntbombdood> but if you have two accelerometers you dont' need a gyro
20:33:03 <Gracenotes> must be GNUStep. but still doesn't answer, why the hell do I have it here >_<
20:33:08 <ais523> you do, in case the device is rotated
20:33:13 <ehird> Gracenotes: you installed gnustep development tools?
20:33:30 <Gracenotes> er. that might be it. but this.. clunky GUI thing... really?
20:33:33 <ais523> you could use a third accelerometer to try to detect rotations, but a gyro works better for that
20:33:42 <ehird> for the record I haven't read the discussion: the single accelero in the iphone can detect tilts and spinning
20:33:53 <ehird> you can tilt it forwards and backwards, and change its orientation
20:34:13 <ais523> ehird: it's going to be what's effectively multiple accelerometers in one package, possibly using just the one weight
20:34:24 <ehird> ais523: hmm really?
20:34:26 <ais523> as in, it's equivalent to several accelerometers, but possibly just in one package
20:34:40 <ais523> and with components in common
20:34:46 <ehird> http://www.slashgear.com/gallery/data_files/7/4/Apple_iPhone_4.jpg
20:34:46 <bsmntbombdood> but 3 accelerometers are good for 3 dimensions right?
20:34:54 <ehird> it doesn't have a gyro
20:34:56 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: yes, assuming you know your orientation
20:35:00 <ais523> ehird: dead-reckoning, then
20:35:23 <ais523> ehird: accelerometers can't figure out orientations, but they can figure out rotations, and deduce the orientation from that
20:35:49 <ais523> they'd need to be very accurate to prevent errors accumulating, though
20:35:49 <ehird> ais523: that might be why sometimes my iphone is in one position but thinks it's the other, and flipping the other way and back again fixes it
20:36:14 <bsmntbombdood> so with 4 coplaner but not coliner accelerometers, you don't need a gyro, right?
20:37:53 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: yes, assuming that the lines they measure don't have a common point either
20:38:04 <ais523> although, if they're all coplanar, you can't measure the third dimension at all
20:38:36 <ais523> either that, or you don't realise what "coplanar" means
20:39:51 <evenant> sitting in the same aisle in a flight to california?
20:39:57 <ais523> the point is, if all the accelerometers are in the same plane, and pointing along it, they can't distinguish up from down
20:40:19 <ais523> evenant: bad puns are oerjan's job
20:40:22 <ais523> but he isn't here, so I'll forgive you
20:49:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:52:03 <ais523> happy australian mailman reminders day, everyone!
20:52:18 <ehird> that means i'm 14 in 23 days…
20:52:33 <ehird> where does the time go, i say
20:54:25 <ehird> (I likely won't be saying that when I'm 16.)
20:54:36 <FireFly> Yeah, well it is quite meh
20:54:51 <ehird> ((If I haven't died from all the COPIOUS ALCOHOL, DRUGS AND ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC that all the teenagers so vigourously consume.))
20:55:13 <FireFly> Since MUSIC is so deadly, right?
20:56:55 -!- coppro has joined.
21:12:04 <FireFly> [22:11:39] <jelly> w00t, that new snapshot has tunable tab bar width
21:12:12 <FireFly> Maybe it's worth checking out the new Opera snapshot
21:12:26 <ehird> CESSMASTER: but not as good as 420 amirite
21:12:39 <ehird> ALAS SCIENCE CANNOT YET ACHIEVE THIS
21:14:34 <CESSMASTER> being 420 years old would fucking suck what's the matter with you
21:15:39 <ehird> don't shoot the messenger man
21:15:57 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:18:55 <ais523> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/31/office_for_mac_service_pack_woes/
21:26:53 <Deewiant> "Exactly when in August, however, is not mentioned." -- probably Patch Tuesday as usual
21:28:54 <pikhq> ehird: Rock and roll þou ſayeſt
21:29:23 * pikhq ſtarts ſome of þis "rock" and "roll".
21:31:47 * ehird farts some of his rock and roll
21:32:14 <pikhq> Oh, aren't you just the soul of wit?
21:50:11 -!- ehird has quit.
21:51:43 <Leonidas> hmm, 16 -> 17 is meh, also back then when I was 16 -> 17
21:58:32 <FireFly> Yeah, well, I'd rather have it 16 -> 15; one more year of not having to work and stuff
21:58:48 <FireFly> Of course going 0 -> -1 wouldn't really be nice
21:59:05 <FireFly> Neither would 0 -> 255 (or similar) if the age is unsigned
22:02:27 -!- ehird has joined.
22:02:49 <pikhq> FireFly: 255->0 would be an improvement on that.
22:03:04 <pikhq> Still suck, though.
22:03:41 * Leonidas would prefer to stay 20, forever
22:03:52 <Leonidas> Maybe there is some gameshark cheat for that
22:05:19 <FireFly> Just freeze the value your age pointer points to
22:05:37 <FireFly> But you prolly don't have access to that, need to be root
22:06:03 <ehird> 20-something is a good age, methinks.
22:06:53 -!- FireFly has set topic: You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is strictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
22:07:10 <FireFly> Whatever, just removed an unnecessary space
22:10:49 -!- ais523 has set topic: You can discuss anything except weird programming languages, which is srictly forbidden. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
22:10:55 * ais523 introduces a typo into the topic
22:11:59 <ehird> "is" should be "are" anyway
22:12:10 <ehird> can anyone explain this (apart from "he's bullshitting")? http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/969sy/your_ip_ip_address_has_been_logged_your_isp_wrong/c0bkohn
22:12:23 <FireFly> At least you save us one byte of transfer on join
22:12:32 * ais523 boggles at the sentence-like structure in that URL
22:12:35 <FireFly> Changing to are would of course nullify that effect
22:12:40 <ais523> "Your IP IP address has been logged your ISP wrong"/
22:12:44 <ehird> ais523: Post title slug.
22:12:51 <ehird> A load of blogs make URLs out of the post title, too.
22:12:59 <ehird> It's a comment on it
22:13:42 <ais523> my guess is that he has two computers
22:13:52 <ehird> ais523: that falls under "he's bullshitting"
22:13:54 <ais523> one of which he's successfully connected to 127.0.0.1 on and thinks it's internet-connected
22:13:59 <ais523> the other of which he's using to comment on reddit
22:13:59 <ehird> while that is quite likely, it's also pointless
22:14:10 <ehird> i'm asking for a technical explanation
22:14:12 <ais523> I think it's being confused and deluded, rather than bullshit
22:14:27 <ehird> "I don't even know how I'm on the interwebs."
22:14:31 <ehird> obviously that implies being on that computer
22:14:37 <ais523> it is theoretically possible to be internet-connected without a connection other than the mains cable
22:14:39 <ehird> "This thing is so old that it doesn't have an internal wireless adapter, and I'm not using any cables either. Maybe the interweb courses through my veins?"
22:14:53 <ais523> networking through mains cables - which are still giving power at the same time - has been a solved problem for a while
22:14:58 <ehird> I don't think there's any motive to lie and he seems pretty straight about it, but…
22:15:04 <ehird> I can't figure out how it could happen.
22:15:11 <ehird> I'm guessing that it actually DOES do wireless.
22:15:11 <ais523> but it never really caught on, and I think there were regulatory problems
22:15:23 <ais523> ehird: "This thing" doesn't necessarily mean "the computer I'm using"
22:15:41 <ais523> oh, that was it, networking via mains cable blocked short-wave radio as a weird side-effect
22:15:43 <ehird> Shall I say it one more time? I'm not asking for explanations that involve him deliberately using misleading language to fuck with us
22:15:58 <ais523> ehird: I'm saying, it may be accidentally misleading
22:16:22 <ehird> ais523: So you're suggesting this guy, after trying to connect to the internet loads and loads of times, never tried to open a site?
22:17:04 <ais523> ehird: my assumption is that he thinks he's connected, but that the web isn't working
22:17:10 <ais523> he's obviously technical enough to know some things, but not others
22:17:18 <ais523> so my guess is, he thinks that if he can ping anything, he's connected
22:17:25 <ais523> and it's something elsewhere that isn't working if he can't visit websites
22:18:21 <ehird> NOBODY tries repeatedly to get the internet working on a computer, pings sites multiple times ("my pings come back 100%") and doesn't try to load anything.
22:18:21 <ehird> "and, well, here I am."
22:18:33 <ehird> So he's definitely saying the internet works on _that machine_.
22:18:58 <ais523> well, if it's a laptop with an unsecured wireless connection near it, it may have connected to the connection automatically
22:19:15 <ehird> "it's plugged in for power"
22:19:22 <ehird> that isn't the kind of thing someone with a laptop would say
22:19:26 <ais523> ehird: I normally run my laptop plugged in
22:19:30 <ais523> the battery life here is about 20 minutes
22:19:40 <ehird> and he was obviously listing the needed cables
22:19:40 <ais523> so for me it effectively is required
22:19:56 <ehird> he thinks it's so old it doesn't do wireless
22:20:01 <ehird> I'm gonna go with "not a laptop"
22:20:12 <ehird> otherwise, it'd be a pentium, 5kg dealie
22:20:35 <ais523> desktops didn't commonly do wireless ever
22:21:11 <ehird> perhaps I need to call bullshit on things more often, otherwise I'll just get confused
22:23:21 <ehird> "Twitkitteh is, quite simply, the first Twitter application written specifically for cats."
22:23:36 <ehird> ("We at TLA Systems are pleased to announce that with Apple’s new App Store policy changes now in effect, Twitkitteh will very soon be the only iPhone Twitter client available to the under-17 market.")
22:23:41 <ehird> I wonder if that's in cat years or not.
22:37:12 <Leonidas> hmm, encode cat pictures in 140 bytes for twitter. Fun.
22:37:30 <ehird> i remember that compression thingy
22:37:46 <Leonidas> Maybe there is a programming language that parses 140 bytes and spits out pictures of cats.
22:37:57 <ehird> Leonidas: they have that
22:37:59 <ehird> it's called twitter
22:38:24 <Leonidas> ehird: yep, but I want actual images, not bit.ly urls
22:38:59 <Leonidas> C======a=============================t would produce the picture of langcat
22:39:39 <ehird> we should make langcats
22:39:43 <ehird> they're cats that represent eso-langs
22:41:42 <Leonidas> @ehird: so this is the langcat for "Chef" http://bit.ly/5pbwi
22:50:05 -!- Judofyr has joined.
22:53:38 -!- cmeme has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:59:52 -!- cmeme has joined.
23:15:03 <ehird> ais523: has cmeme been in here all this time?
23:15:07 <ehird> I thought it died with ircbrowse.com
23:15:12 <ais523> ehird: not that I remember
23:15:20 <ais523> maybe ircbrowse.com are logging us again
23:15:25 <ehird> nah, it's still down
23:15:45 <ehird> i think it has been here
23:16:25 <FireFly> Is cmeme in any way related to clog, except for both being bots associated with loggin, beginning on the same character?
23:16:38 <ais523> no, they're different organisations entirely
23:17:12 <ehird> that's a simplification
23:17:16 <ehird> For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/.
23:17:17 <ehird> For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com.
23:17:17 <ehird> Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/.
23:17:33 <ehird> so it WAS clog at one point
23:17:35 <ehird> but then changed over to cmeme
23:17:36 <ais523> oh yes, the people who run (ran?) clog know that cmeme exist
23:17:45 <ehird> meme used to be an interface to clog logs
23:17:49 <ehird> then they started using cmeme instead
23:18:05 <ais523> really? from that, all that it seems to imply is that meme started doing the same thing, and tunes linked to them
23:18:19 <ehird> These logs are purposely "raw" and are intended to be parsed/reformated/wrapped before viewing.
23:18:19 <ehird> Annoyances such as horizontal window scrolling are due to the poor choice of viewer.
23:18:19 <ehird> For a so-called "pretty" view of these logs, go to http://tunes.org/~coreyr/.
23:18:19 <ehird> For even "prettier" (css'd, searchable, customizable, etc) logs, go to http://meme.b9.com.
23:18:20 <ehird> Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/.
23:18:30 <ais523> "for even prettier logs"
23:18:37 <ehird> it's rather obvious in context that it's listing pretty ways to view clog logs, ais523.
23:18:39 <ais523> not "for an even prettier version of these logs"
23:18:43 <ehird> since cmeme DOESN'T LOG THE SAME CHANNELS.
23:18:50 <ehird> so that line would be utterly stupid
23:18:55 <ais523> then, the last one, is "for cmeme's logs in clog format"
23:18:59 <ais523> the last would be pointless otherwise
23:18:59 <ehird> "If you want nicer-tasting chicken, why not eat a dog?"
23:19:08 <ehird> that's not even a remotely valid reading of it
23:19:17 <pikhq> ais523: Clearly, it makes logs more beautiful by making them untruthful when the truth is ugly.
23:19:18 <ehird> clog has no format
23:19:27 <ais523> ehird: yes, it does, it's just a plaintext dump
23:19:30 <ais523> but it's still a format
23:19:40 <ais523> and it outputs in a particular format
23:21:17 <ehird> "Meme also provides virtual clog apache directories at http://meme.b9.com/clog/." ;; if anything, this is a meme interface to clog logs
23:21:29 <ehird> but i am 100% sure it does not mean "here is the previous line in raw format"
23:21:34 <ehird> because that's *not what it says at all*
23:22:21 <ais523> a "virtual clog" would be something that worked the same way as clog, whilst not being clog
23:22:31 <ehird> ais523: "virtual _ apache directories"
23:22:34 <ehird> virtual directories in apache
23:22:35 <ais523> as in "meme also do the same thing as us, as well as providing pretty logs"
23:22:37 <ehird> i.e. not real files
23:23:25 <ais523> unfortunately the Wayback Machine doesn't have the content that used to be there
23:23:50 <ais523> why would anyone link to an alternate name for the same thing? a different logbot with the same output format is useful, though
23:24:14 <ehird> please, you're depressing me that a seemingly sane person could possibly mangle the interpretation of the english language in such a way
23:24:23 <ehird> it's like you're disregarding the sentence and substituting a meaning
23:24:55 <pikhq> ehird: English is a total slut.
23:25:12 <ehird> pikhq: you did WHAT with that chicken?
23:25:34 <pikhq> That it is bending down to fellate ais523 right now doesn't change that it will do anything for anyone.
23:25:58 <ais523> ehird: I can't see any legitimate interpretation of your reading at all
23:26:05 <ais523> nothing there suggests that the two are the same thing
23:26:19 <ais523> "here are our logs; here are some other logs"
23:26:36 <ehird> BECAUSE CLOG IS A BOT AND NOTHING ELSE!
23:26:53 <ehird> it does not make sense to provide a virtual directory of clog unless it's the logs logged by that bot
23:27:08 <ais523> it does not say "virtual directory of clog"
23:27:15 <ais523> it says "virtual clog apache directories"
23:27:36 <ehird> yes, and because I know what a virtual directory in apache is, I can reword it in a valid way to try and make it clearer to you
23:27:49 <ehird> how else do you want me to try and tell you you're wrong? repeating the sentence verbatim over and over?
23:29:17 <ais523> we can't check who was right until we find the content on the site, and/or ask the maintainers
23:29:31 <ais523> anyway, there's a far more pressing issue here: given that ircbrowse.com is down, who on earth is cmeme logging for?
23:30:11 <ehird> pikhq: please tell me i'm not hallucinating and that ais523's interpretation IS crazy
23:30:34 <ais523> ehird: logging for /dev/null would be ridiculous, nobody would waste server resources on that
23:30:35 <pikhq> ais523: I'm not sure what the hell the point of this is.
23:30:44 <ais523> well, there was that process on normish which pinged yahoo for an entire month
23:30:46 <ais523> but that was a mistake
23:30:54 <ehird> ais523: it's down due to the server being unmaintained, duh
23:30:59 <ehird> the old meme redirects to ircbrowse
23:31:03 <ehird> and the guy's blog was last updated in '07
23:31:08 <ehird> ais523: tunes.org is also unmaintained
23:31:14 <ehird> faré just breaks the server every now and then
23:31:20 <ehird> if clog has a bug and breaks, it would not be fixed
23:31:39 <ehird> because the original coder doesn't maintain it any more.
23:39:59 <pikhq> http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/ The mind boggles.
23:44:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:44:38 <ehird> see, my user-mode posix would do that
23:44:41 <ais523> ehird: a bug causing breakage seems unlikely
23:44:41 <ehird> due to being ported to every OS ever
23:44:43 <ehird> including the apple ii
23:44:57 <ehird> [23:44] ais523: ehird: a bug causing breakage seems unlikely ← I'm hanging this up on the wall
23:44:57 <ais523> it would more likely be a sysadmin problem, like out of disk space or overflowing log files
23:45:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
23:45:10 -!- ehird has joined.
23:45:13 <pikhq> Usermode POSIX would be pretty sweet.
23:45:43 <ehird> ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix ./usermode_posix sh
23:45:49 <ehird> For those days when you want to take it slow.
23:45:55 <ais523> ehird: I mean, clog's been going so long that it seems much more likely that it would break for config reasons than for code reasons
23:46:16 <ehird> ais523: Yes, I was just pointing out that leaving a server doing shit unmaintainedly is not unheard of.
23:46:40 <pikhq> ehird: I assume that it would be designed like Linux from Scratch, to show itself as a single process and do all task-switching itself?
23:46:50 <ehird> pikhq: yes, for portability
23:47:08 <ehird> pikhq: does POSIX mandate elf?
23:47:16 <ais523> write it in perfectly portable C, if you can
23:47:30 <pikhq> ELF is a seperate standard.
23:47:34 <FireFly> http://216.14.122.182/images/28259tmp9.png <--
23:47:38 <ehird> ais523: no such thing
23:47:52 <ehird> THAT IS NOT IRONIC IT IS CRINGEWORTHY.
23:48:05 <ehird> Anyway, plug computers are fucking awesome.
23:48:06 <ais523> ehird: you can get pretty portable
23:48:09 <ehird> But I assume you meant the toolbar :P
23:48:13 <ais523> especially with autoconf
23:48:24 <ais523> failing that, write in perfect theoretically portable C89
23:48:26 <ehird> I'm never using autoconf, ever
23:48:30 <ehird> I want to run this on an apple ii man
23:48:34 <FireFly> And yeah, I'm thinking of getting a sheevaplug
23:48:48 <ehird> Everything, pretty much.
23:48:49 <pikhq> ehird: Then you are in for a world of pain.
23:48:49 <ais523> if C-INTERCAL doesn't run on a C64, I consider that a bug, although a low-priority one
23:49:01 <ehird> pikhq: Call me when autoconf supports the ↑↑↑
23:49:02 <pikhq> Portability is a royal bitch.
23:49:09 <pikhq> Autoconf is merely a *lesser* bitch.
23:49:13 <ehird> pikhq: I'm basically going to abstract all the low-level stuff.
23:49:18 <ehird> It won't use the host filesystem or anything
23:49:22 <pikhq> The C64? Only with cross-compiling, but sure.
23:49:36 <ehird> It'll require writing tons of code for every platform anyway
23:49:47 <ehird> and I'm never going to use auto*, ever, so don't even bother
23:49:49 <pikhq> The iPhone? Sure; just install Terminal.app on it.
23:50:04 <pikhq> Okay, that's a royal assload of pain right there, ehird.
23:50:20 <ais523> isn't it against apple's terms of service to put an open-source program onto the iphone?
23:50:35 <ehird> [23:49] pikhq: The iPhone? Sure; just install Terminal.app on it.
23:50:35 <ehird> ↑ please stop talking
23:50:38 <ehird> you have no idea what you're talking about
23:50:42 <ehird> terminal.app from os x will not run on the iphone
23:51:08 <ais523> oh, I bet there's some way, but it probably involves a lot of jailbreaking and hackery and is harder than just reimplementing
23:51:15 <ais523> also, possibly, porting os x to os x
23:51:18 <ehird> it doesn't have the libraries
23:51:22 <ehird> it's a different architecture
23:51:28 <ais523> it would be a lot of work
23:51:34 <ehird> god just shut the fuck up
23:51:36 <ehird> ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE
23:51:38 <ais523> which is why I made the comment about porting os x to itself
23:51:38 <ehird> JUST EDIT THE UNIVERSE
23:51:44 <ehird> TWIDDLE WITH THE LAWS OF PHYSICS A BIT
23:51:50 <ehird> it's along the same lines as
23:51:54 <ehird> HURR NO LANGUAGE IS BETTER THAN ANOTHERW
23:51:57 <ehird> BECAUSE TURING!!!!!
23:52:09 <ehird> and i wish people would stop making such trivial, insipid, useless arguments based on suc hthings
23:52:20 <ais523> ok, but you can at least expect people to be slightly pedantic here
23:52:23 <ais523> after all, this is #esoteric
23:52:36 <pikhq> ehird: There is *a* Terminal.app for the iPhone.
23:52:45 <pikhq> It involves a lot of jailbreaking and hackery.
23:52:45 <ais523> is it called Terminal.app?
23:52:50 <ehird> pikhq: Genericword.app means the OS X version.
23:52:55 <ehird> Mail.app, Terminal.app, etc.
23:52:56 <FireFly> You're currently breaking the Golden Rule of the Topic™
23:53:00 <ehird> Mobile*.app means a default iPhone app.
23:53:03 <ehird> MobileSafari.app, etc.
23:53:10 <ais523> FireFly: a rule forcing offtopicness is stupid
23:53:14 <pikhq> It ain't a default, it's a hack.
23:53:17 <ehird> ais523: you're stupid. :P
23:53:23 <pikhq> Someone else wrote it and called it Terminal.app.
23:53:25 <ehird> pikhq: You're not reading what I said.
23:53:28 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only change one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
23:53:33 <ehird> There is something called Terminal.app.
23:53:41 <ehird> "Terminal.app" is not a valid way to refer to it in general.
23:53:41 <pikhq> ehird: ITS NOT MY FAULT, SOMEONE ELSE NAMED IT THAT.
23:53:48 <ehird> Because that means /Applications/Utilities/Terminal.app.
23:54:09 <pikhq> THERE IS A NAMESPACE COLLISION HERE, NOT A MISUNDERSTANDING, YOU DUMBTARD.
23:54:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:54:19 -!- ehird has changed nick to dear_my_inner_ra.
23:54:44 <ais523> ehird: it's easy enough to just use your usual nick
23:55:09 <dear_my_inner_ra> ais523: It's easy enough to say "an iPhone terminal app" instead of Terminal.app because the latter is used to mean the OS X default terminal, too.
23:55:21 <dear_my_inner_ra> But apparently pikhq is bound to referring things only in the ways that their creators do.
23:55:27 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:55:31 <ais523> so, how do you refer to the Plan 9 version of vi
23:55:39 <ais523> given that the name is already taken?
23:55:40 <pikhq> I am not sure of your point, and can only conclude that you like to be an idiot.
23:55:59 <ais523> I've just had a stupid idea
23:56:00 <dear_my_inner_ra> pikhq: I'm sorry, next time I'll use diagrams instead of English.
23:56:05 <ais523> porting programs to other man chapters
23:56:13 <ais523> e.g. we already have vim(1) as an editor
23:56:18 <pikhq> dear_my_inner_ra: You're a retard.
23:56:32 <ais523> we could have vim(8) designed to edit root-owned files
23:56:37 <ais523> and vim(6) which wasn't entirely serious
23:56:43 <ais523> and vim(2) the system call
23:56:52 <pikhq> And vim(n) the Tcl function.
23:57:05 * ais523 wonders if vim(3perl) already exists
23:57:34 <dear_my_inner_ra> tcl and perl's manpage pollution is almost enough to get me to uninstall them
23:57:41 <dear_my_inner_ra> alas you can't really do that with perl unless you're an über-minimalist
23:58:05 <ais523> hmm... quite a lot of vim-related modules on CPAN, but none are ports of vim
23:58:29 <ais523> ehird: they're accessible via the perldoc command too
23:58:40 -!- augur has joined.
23:58:41 <ais523> there's probably some way to move it so perldoc accesses them and not vim
23:58:47 <ais523> also, git is just as bad in terms of manpage pollution
23:59:24 <ais523> perl only pollutes perl*
23:59:39 <ais523> it's cpan that pollutes *::*
23:59:59 <dear_my_inner_ra> i don't care about your separation of perl and state^Wcpan, because nobody else does