00:00:00 <ais523> and it's almost certainly possible to stop it doing that
00:00:03 <pikhq> Tcl only pollutes (n).
00:00:13 <ais523> well, cpan puts everything in section 3perl
00:00:21 <ais523> but as ehird says, that's not particularly useful
00:00:24 * dear_my_inner_ra decides to learn how to read analog clocks by setting his Mac's menubar clock to it
00:00:31 <pikhq> dear_my_inner_ra: What, would you prefer for there not to be man pages of it?
00:00:32 <ais523> ehird: use a decimal clock
00:00:39 <ais523> I implemented a decimal clock applet for windows ages ago
00:00:44 <ais523> incidentally, it's about 0 right now
00:01:05 <ais523> decimal time's like that but with two more decimal places
00:01:14 <ais523> and local time, rather than UTC+1 for no apparent reason
00:01:42 <ais523> thus it being @0 around now
00:02:03 <dear_my_inner_ra> also, since 1 beat = 1 minute and 26.4 seconds, I don't feel the need for more precision
00:02:25 <ais523> 10 = about 15 minutes, which is more generally useful
00:02:28 <dear_my_inner_ra> otherwise, saying "oh, it's @200, happy midnight" is very unnatural
00:02:31 <ais523> as I tend to think in units of about 15 minutes
00:02:46 <ais523> yes, well it's @0, which is only midnight because we're in summertime atm
00:02:57 <ais523> about @1 or @2 now, I suppose
00:03:07 <ais523> also, saying "happy midnight" is unnatural no matter what the circumstances
00:03:12 <dear_my_inner_ra> grr, if you have the analog clock in os x, you can't get the digital time in the menu
00:03:34 <ais523> ehird: are you trolling?
00:03:54 <ais523> over here I mostly hear "it's tomorrow"
00:04:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please only change one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:04:08 <dear_my_inner_ra> "happy today" might just be saying, hey, it's today, that's cool
00:04:53 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:05:02 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:07:29 <dear_my_inner_ra> Are you a Gmail user, or do you have friends who are? Do you resent the "Sponsored Link" advertisements that come up next to the incoming mail? Now you and your friends can do something about it!
00:07:29 <dear_my_inner_ra> The solution is simple, when sending an email to a gmail user include a sentence or two that mentions catastrophic events or tragedies. Google does not use humans to read your email, only computers. These computers search for keywords that trigger the advertisements, however, if they hapen to find a catastrophic event or tragedy Google errs on the side of good taste and removes the ads altogether.
00:07:29 <dear_my_inner_ra> You may want to make mention of what you are doing so the recipient is not alarmed by your sudden Tourette's-like outburst. You can link to this site by way of explanation if need be.
00:07:56 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: PS. Suicide death 9/11 murder http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:08:04 <dear_my_inner_ra> The link to our logs is considered sensitive by gmail. True fact.
00:08:17 -!- ais523 has set topic: ehird was banned from this topic due to violating the topic rules. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:08:59 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: ehird ~~ BANNED ~~ AVATAR! ~~ This COOKIE tastes like VIOLENCE! ~~ Posts: 34,383 ~~ Joined: Jan 2001 ~~ Signature: check out my great forum: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:09:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un topic. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D..
00:09:27 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: Ceci n'est pas valid French. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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01:01:53 * pikhq is vaguely in the mood to fiddle with little-used OSes
01:02:14 <pikhq> If MachTen were gratis, I'd be fiddling with that.
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12:52:58 <ehird> happy mailman mailing list reminders day
12:57:15 <ehird> I've found precedent that we're using the wrong name for that
12:57:36 <ehird> http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/437 came before http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/1226, so we must assume the former is the original (especially since that's Hixie's kind of joke)
12:57:50 <ehird> happy mailman mailing list memberships reminders day
12:57:58 <ehird> happy australian mailman mailing list memberships reminders day
13:00:06 <ehird> "More fucking particles, really, science? You know what?
13:00:06 <ehird> Fuck you. I'm not even trying to understand it, now."
13:00:06 <ehird> — http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons
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13:40:52 <FireFly> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/ <-- Delety
13:42:09 <FireFly> Can you protect a non-existant page from being created, with mediawiki?
13:44:12 <FireFly> That talk page could probably make use of it
13:56:48 <ehird> Slereah_: you can?
13:57:22 <Slereah_> I know that wikis have a lot of non-existant pages blocked from creation
13:59:44 <ehird> wiki admins: please delete this bullshit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute
13:59:51 <ehird> not even funny any more
13:59:59 <ehird> completely tired of shit like that
14:01:37 <ehird> huh http://4mhz.de/
14:01:38 <ehird> (21 Jul 2009) Some days ago, I received a voucher copy of c't extra Programmieren 02/09, a special issue of c't (a German IT magazine). They published Brainfuck Developer on DVD. In the article, there's even a screenshot ;) It's nice to see the work you've done recognized.
14:04:02 <ehird> Copying digital information isn't stealing
14:05:10 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/More ← needs more has-been-deletedness
14:05:17 <Slereah_> I'm no MPAA people, you know what I
14:05:30 <ehird> Slereah_: no, because stealing implies a bad thing
14:05:47 <Slereah_> I'm mostly asking if they asked him first
14:06:59 <ehird> Copying digital information is not a bad thing.
14:07:41 <FireFly> I want to read that article now
14:07:50 <ehird> I want to read YOUR MOM
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14:39:05 <Slereah_> Not if they make profit from it :o
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14:46:25 <ehird> Slereah_: you're wrong :p
14:47:22 <Slereah_> Which is the evilest thing of all!
14:50:25 <ehird> http://sites.google.com/site/yacoset/Home/physics-for-programmers
14:51:07 <ehird> [[Now this is a story all about how my viewpoint flipped-turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you how I became a fan of our friend X M L.
14:51:08 <ehird> In North Mopac Boulevard, castin rays, on the PC is where I spent most of my days. Chillin out, haxin, refraxin all cool, I was shootin some photons through a polybool. Then a couple of rays who were up to no good, started causing errors in their neighborhood. I wrote one little script and Maya got scared, she said "You're usin up all the memory IRIX can spare!"]]
14:51:14 <ehird> — http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/96dg0/nobody_who_uses_xml_knows_what_they_are_doing/c0bky64
14:52:49 <mycroftiv> the idea of generalizing physics to the actual generation of code isnt actually that farfetched in some ways, i think the connections between information theory, physics, and computational systems are well established now
14:53:34 <ehird> mycroftiv: i think you overestimate the seriousness
14:54:15 <mycroftiv> ehird: oh, i just like looking for the elements of truth that are what makes humor funny, i think - because these principles are actually pretty factual
14:54:44 <mycroftiv> 4. A gas will always expand to fill the volume of its container
14:54:45 <mycroftiv> All possible race conditions shall happen at some point in the life of a program.
14:55:02 <mycroftiv> that is basically 'spot on' - because both are entirely about the stochastic exploration of a state space
14:55:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: you're kooky :D
14:56:05 <mycroftiv> ehird: be careful, i might get started on W.H. Zurek and the implications of his work, and then everyone will be sorry they asked
14:56:23 <ehird> but we're not going to ask!
14:56:35 <mycroftiv> and no, hes not some crank, hes one of the world's most respected theoreticians of quantum physics
14:58:06 <Slereah_> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8177285.stm
14:58:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: You should talk to Slereah_, he works on the LHC or something.
14:58:25 <ehird> Maybe you could get him to collide programs.
14:58:27 <Slereah_> I wonder what would be my fine
14:58:44 <Slereah_> The judge would be like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS
14:59:38 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: you do fundamental physics work?
15:00:10 <ehird> I'm a physics fundamentalist
15:00:25 <ehird> THOU SHALT HAVE NO ELEMENTARY PARTICLES APART FROM QUARKS
15:01:11 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: cool, i know its a big field, but have you checked out W.H. Zurek's work on what he calls 'quantum darwinism' - basically a much extended attack on the quantum measurement problem that extends the decoherence paradigm significantly?
15:01:46 <mycroftiv> its really awesome work, imo, although i have to take a fair amount of the mathematical foundation 'on faith' - but its all peer reviewed and seems very solid, decades of work
15:02:20 <ehird> i'm a get a fun argument going
15:02:26 <ehird> Slereah_: Copenhagen or MWI?!
15:02:29 <ehird> mycroftiv: Copenhagen or MWI?!
15:03:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: zurek's quantum darwinism, it settles these questions definitively imo - it descends from MWI style thinking but is really quite different
15:03:13 <ehird> the name itself makes me suspicious.
15:03:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah i know it sounds like a lame neologism, im not sure he should ahve picked it
15:03:37 <ehird> you can summarise if you wish
15:03:39 <mycroftiv> ehird: but it makes sense in a way after the concept is explained
15:04:05 <mycroftiv> in short, zurek's work is based on very careful and detailed study of how information is transferred between systems at the quantum level
15:04:06 <ehird> currently, though I'm physicstarded, I'm an MWI-er
15:04:26 <ehird> mycroftiv: you might want to dumb it down a bit btw :P
15:04:29 <mycroftiv> for a 'measurement' to happen - for us to perceive the world - information has to be transmitted through a large series of interactions
15:05:17 <mycroftiv> what zurek shows (mostly by pure mathematical manipulation of the fundamental, well tested equations of qed) is that the transmission of information between systems at the quantum level has very definite tendencies
15:05:32 <mycroftiv> in the case of the famous 'schrodingers cat' experiment, you can summarize it as this:
15:05:36 <ehird> i love the name of QED
15:05:41 <ehird> how can you argue with QED?!
15:06:06 <mycroftiv> the reason you never see a half-alive, half-dead cat is that there are rules that determine the kind of information that can be successfully transmitted into the future
15:06:16 <ehird> mycroftiv: Hey, man, don't make assumptions about what I never see.
15:06:35 <mycroftiv> and that quantum states that are 'nonsensical' simply do not make 'copies' of themselves in the form of transmitting information forward in time
15:06:48 <mycroftiv> perhaps they 'happen', but that information can never reach our sense perceptions
15:06:54 <ehird> I'm not seeing how this really relates to MWI like you said
15:07:09 <mycroftiv> because our perceiving an event in the world means that our particles have become part of an entangled quantum state
15:07:18 <mycroftiv> ehird: because the idea is that just like in many world interpretation, 'everything happens'
15:07:38 <mycroftiv> but unlike MWI, zurek has mathematically studied the dynamics of how information moves between the states and how it goes forward in time
15:07:54 <ehird> so you're saying that everything happens in _one_ universe or sth?
15:07:58 <mycroftiv> so rather than a 'branching' universe, you have a universe that represents the *fittest* collection of information
15:08:02 <ehird> this isn't really making any sense to me and I don't see how it relates to darwin at all :P
15:08:12 <mycroftiv> everything happens in our universe - but we only perceive the 'fittest' information
15:08:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: doesn't occam's razor apply a bit here?
15:08:18 <mycroftiv> because only that information is of the form to transmit itself into the future
15:08:23 <ehird> what does zurek achieve that mwi doesn't
15:08:28 <ehird> as mwi certainly seems simpler
15:08:31 <mycroftiv> mathematical meaningfulness mostly
15:08:40 <mycroftiv> he makes many more predictions and statemnts and the analysis is vastly more fine grained
15:08:49 <ehird> Is zurek compatible with mwi?
15:08:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: MWI is basically a philosophical idea - zurek's work is really hard math
15:08:54 <ehird> As in, does it contradict any part of mwi?
15:09:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: there have been plenty papers published on mwi /shrug
15:09:16 <mycroftiv> zurek descends from wheeler's tradition in this
15:09:32 <mycroftiv> he absolutely bases his work on the same principle, of taking what the actual structure of the quantum equations say 'seriously'
15:09:44 <mycroftiv> here im gonna linke the massive and awesome summary paper that was in Nature recently, the arxiv version
15:10:00 <mycroftiv> this represents a summary of decades of well respected, peer reviewed, mainstream work
15:10:06 <ehird> my brain will probably leak out i'm afraid
15:11:49 <mycroftiv> i really think the quality of the work as pure physics/math is superlative, and that the philosophical implications are absolutely staggering
15:12:28 <ehird> To bypass these obstacles Bohr [1] followed Alexander
15:12:28 <ehird> the Great’s example: Rather than try disentangling the
15:12:28 <ehird> Gordian Knot at the beginning of his conquest, he cut
15:12:28 <ehird> ↑ am i the only one who hates such crappy analogies?
15:12:48 <mycroftiv> i think that is an excellent analogy, but it is also completely irrelevant
15:12:57 <mycroftiv> that is pure literary style, nothing to do with the content of the research or its claims
15:13:07 <ehird> shush you i'm allowed to complain about it if i want :)
15:13:16 <mycroftiv> hey, i aint quashing no free speech
15:13:30 <ehird> but the evil cabal of fizzie and lament are.
15:13:34 * mycroftiv summons his black helicopters of physics interpretation censorship
15:13:37 <ehird> for definitions of are equal to would if they did.
15:16:28 <ehird> mycroftiv: well i'm sure i'll read that paper sometime in my life… like perhaps when I think it won't totally go over my head.
15:16:30 <fizzie> Yes, I certainly rule the channel with an IRON FIST, no-one can deny that.
15:17:02 <ehird> fizzie: Every time you talk I quiver in my boots!
15:17:04 <ehird> I don't even have boots.
15:17:29 <ehird> On re-reading my second last line, I read it as "boobs".
15:17:35 <ehird> Freud would have a field day.
15:17:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, the idea that the universe we perceive == the subset of the total of all quantum states that possess information dynamics corresponding to a 'universe that makes sense' is the idea
15:18:15 <mycroftiv> and Zurek shows imo convincingly this is a simple and strict consequence of the base equations themselves
15:18:38 <ehird> you seem to be talking about it like it's objective
15:18:45 <ehird> but i doubt it's that clear-cut, as in a logical consequence
15:19:14 <mycroftiv> i believe zurek has succeeded in mathematically deriving an information-theoretic fundamental ontology of the universe from the most experimentally well confirmed physical theory we have
15:19:43 <mycroftiv> so - and i know this is a fucking nuts claim that scientists would back away from - i think science has now solved the class8ic ontological problems of philosophy to a large extent
15:19:46 <ehird> If it was truly an objective, formal logic consequence, I'd have almost certainly heard about it due to it being huge.
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15:20:10 <ehird> (Litmus test: if you go on about the man oppressing the fundamental nature of the universe now, you're a quack. :P)
15:20:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, the thing is that the quantum measurement problem is not regarded as 'sexy' necessarily by the physics community, string theory has been regarded more as where its at, and cosmological issues
15:20:44 <mycroftiv> so i think there is a lot of contingent historical circumstance that means the full significance isnt really understood
15:20:52 <ehird> Seriously? All I've heard about string theory points it to being a fringe theory that no serious physicist believes due to it being undisprovable.
15:20:55 <mycroftiv> ehird: but zurek is not a quack, study his biography and his positions
15:21:08 <mycroftiv> ehird: but that is only a very recent and 'popular' opinion
15:21:17 <mycroftiv> for most of the past 20 years, string theory was what most people worked on
15:21:23 <mycroftiv> following andrew witten extensively
15:21:46 <ehird> It's hard to believe, really.
15:21:50 <mycroftiv> ehird: and really most working physicists came to believe that the quantum measurement problem was either not important, or already satisfactorily solved
15:21:55 <ehird> I mean, working on something undisprovable?
15:22:02 <ehird> Might as well develop a theory of invisible pink unicorns.
15:22:25 <mycroftiv> and as i say zurek's work is far from obscure, - it is the mainstream of modern work on QED, and not challenged by anyone so far as i know
15:22:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: Isn't the copenhagen interpretation the standard fare?
15:22:52 <ehird> That's the impression I've had, at least
15:23:04 <mycroftiv> not so much any more, the decoherent paradigm really has taken over i think
15:23:26 <mycroftiv> i think reading at the semi-popular level is likely to convey a somewhat misleading impression
15:24:30 <mycroftiv> im not a degree- carrying researcher, but ive made a serious effort to move from a 'laymans' understanding to a true technical level and follow the current research directly - and the real state of the community opinion isnt really captured well by the standard summaries of the ideas on quantum measurement
15:25:14 <mycroftiv> the thing is that people like the 'narrative' of quantum mechanics being all spooky/crazy/not understood
15:25:45 <mycroftiv> thats still the dominant trope of whatever popular discourse there tends to be, so the fact that a rather technical and detailed analysis of the theory has shown its not actually like that has just not made a huge impression on the world
15:27:21 <mycroftiv> i mean, the fact is that the average 'educated, intelligent, rational person' is still using a set of conceptual tools that basically encodes the euclidean/newtonian analytic framework
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15:32:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: btw, in re: string theory - the motivations of the string theory researchers actually do make a lot of sense fundaemntally, even though a lot of people now think that approach wont really get us anwywhere
15:32:27 <mycroftiv> our current best physical theories all have the fundamental mathematical fact in common of being strongly related to symmetry groups
15:32:53 <mycroftiv> theres a very important theorem called noether's theorem that connects symmetries to conservation laws, as a consequence
15:33:08 <mycroftiv> so, the string theorists idea is to hunt for more symmetries, basically
15:33:22 <mycroftiv> the mathematics of string theory is amazing, from a group-theoretical symmetry perspective
15:33:35 <mycroftiv> so that is why it was very appealing as a source for mathematical ideas for physics
15:34:00 <mycroftiv> in fact, much incredibly important research *has* been done by string theory - but it has turned out to be 'pure math' more than physics
15:34:06 <mycroftiv> theres nothing wrong with pure math though
15:34:30 <mycroftiv> but people get irritated when purely theoretical mathematical structures with no discrernable connection to reality start claiming to be the fundamental building blocks of everything ;)
15:38:47 <Pthing> what does "making sense" mean
15:39:18 <mycroftiv> Pthing: mispelled double antonym of 'losing dollars' ?
15:39:41 <Pthing> plausibly, but I doubt the world is quite ready for a theory unifying finance and fundamental physics
15:40:00 <ehird> Pthing: I'm not sure, I think it makes dollars and sense
15:40:17 <ehird> mycroftiv: not tiresome, i'm just bored of that subject now ;)
15:40:22 <mycroftiv> Pthing: actually, i honestly think we are - i think for instance Wolfram and others have good theories about general mathematical rules for complex dynamic systems
15:40:32 <mycroftiv> ehird: may i interest you in some plan9 from bell labs>?
15:40:39 <Pthing> Yeah well, Wolfram is his own worst enemy in that respect
15:40:43 <ehird> mycroftiv: i already like plan 9 :P
15:40:58 <Pthing> He doesn't have good theories, he has *expansive* theories
15:41:12 <Pthing> but he tells you they're good enough times
15:41:36 <mycroftiv> Pthing: hm but he also does real research and publishes stuff and makes tools, does he not? so i dont think it can be said to be purely hot air
15:41:49 <Pthing> Well, the people he *hires* does real research and publishes stuff
15:41:51 <ais523> Wolfram's theories tend to be rather vague and use brute-forcing to fill in the details
15:42:02 <ais523> that's quite interesting for small-scale things, but I don't think it scales up
15:42:02 <ehird> ais523: BUT THE UNIVERSAL 2,3 TURING MACHINE
15:42:06 <ehird> YOU DID IT, DON'T YOU _BELIEVE_?!
15:42:11 <ais523> ehird: yes, it was found via brute force
15:42:14 <mycroftiv> ais523: well, doesnt the universe itself 'brute force' itself a lot?
15:42:20 <ehird> it's you— er, his— most important result of the CENTURY!
15:42:25 <Pthing> Finding something through brute force isn't the problem
15:42:29 <Pthing> the four colour problem was brute forced
15:42:41 <ais523> mycroftiv: oh, yes; it certainly works in theory, just it tends not to work for really big things because it takes a prohibitively long time
15:42:44 <Pthing> is that Wolfram goes off with the principle of computational bollocks or whatever it was
15:43:04 <Pthing> which is not even philosophically well placed
15:43:11 <ehird> ((ais523 won the Wolfram Prize for the 2,3 turing machine thingy))
15:43:19 <ehird> (((to give context to my jokes)))
15:43:23 <ehird> Pthing: yuh: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/
15:43:42 <ais523> Pthing: I think it's an attempt to generalise the Church-Turing thesis, possibly doomed to failure because nobody agrees on how to state the original thesis in the first place
15:44:03 <Pthing> It's a very emotionally appealing idea
15:44:14 <mycroftiv> wow, im seriously star struck to be in the presence of people who do the work that i regard as incredibly importnat
15:44:30 <ais523> mycroftiv: it's a bit hard over the internet
15:44:35 <ehird> ais523: you should become a celebrity
15:44:42 <ehird> you've got a better claim to fame than paris hilton!
15:44:42 <ais523> shall I digitally sign a document and send it to you?
15:44:58 <ais523> digital autographs are the things in the future
15:45:19 <Pthing> I'd *like* to be interested in
15:45:32 <Pthing> but I don't think it's even an actual thing yet
15:46:11 <Pthing> some kind of built-up computational discipline about biological systems
15:46:20 <Pthing> it's part of natural computation, sure
15:46:55 <ehird> i note that over time this channel gradually transforms from an esolang channel to just plain esoteric
15:47:08 <mycroftiv> well in the broad sense the discovery of DNA was really just that, wasnt it?
15:47:16 <ais523> hmm... what sort of thing do you normally write in autographs?
15:47:17 <mycroftiv> i mean, the mapping of DNA == source code for biology is pretty strict
15:47:22 <Pthing> Yeaahhhh sort of, the whole molecular biology thing
15:47:32 <ais523> mycroftiv: except that there seems to be lots of side-channel information too
15:47:41 <ehird> ais523: "Alex Smith", I suppose
15:47:42 <Pthing> But there's no real basis for a theoretical view of it
15:47:44 <ehird> ais523: use M-x artist-mode
15:47:45 <ais523> the DNA doesn't encode everything, even though in theory they could
15:47:50 <ehird> to make it all signature-looking!
15:47:52 <Pthing> it's all either been elucidation of the precise mechanisms
15:47:56 <mycroftiv> ais523: yeah that kind of generalization is really sloppy, im not claiming that as 'fact', but i think as maps and metaphors go, its amazingly strong
15:48:06 <ais523> I thought autographs were addressed to someone in particular
15:48:19 <ehird> ais523: i think that's mostly via implied ownership of the item in question.
15:48:20 <ais523> and besides, it's the digital sig that would contain my name, just like traditional analog sigs are where you put your name
15:48:38 <ais523> ooh, I know what I could send
15:48:41 <ehird> ais523: make a file with 24 lines of 80 spaces, then
15:48:42 <ais523> a digitally signed INTERCAL addition
15:48:45 <ehird> it's a blank piece of paper
15:48:46 <mycroftiv> i believe we now know that cells are not so much a single centrally organized thing but in fact a kind of ecosystem all in their own, with independently evolved structures, right?
15:49:02 <ehird> yo dawg i heard you like ecosystems so etc
15:49:04 <mycroftiv> with a kind of complex flow of information and processes between viruses, dna/rna, mitochondria, etc
15:49:04 <Pthing> You can go dumb with it
15:50:01 -!- Lim has joined.
15:50:14 <mycroftiv> information theory is obviously fundamental to life just because maintaining low entropy is key to the definition
15:50:29 <ehird> who/what/where brought you here
15:50:54 <Pthing> I can't see the theory getting going until people start to properly engineer genomes
15:50:59 <Pthing> We're just starting to now
15:51:23 <Lim> i can speak in french ?
15:51:31 <Pthing> The other problem is that the point of computer science is that it's so general
15:52:01 <mycroftiv> if i was going to put a bet on where we might get a truly amazing fundamental breakthrough - if we could 'crack the neural code' of whats going on in the brain in an analogous way to our current tracing of genetics...
15:52:02 <Pthing> that the architecture isn't frightfully important, so whether you can do anything on a particularly deep level *specifically* about biological computation is doubtful
15:52:10 <ehird> we might not understand you though
15:52:13 <ais523> mycroftiv: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1514846
15:52:17 <ais523> there you go, a digital autograph
15:52:20 <pikhq> Pthing: Engineering genomes has gotten started.
15:52:23 <ais523> that thing expires in 15 minutes, be sure to save a copy
15:52:27 <ehird> Lim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images
15:52:30 <ehird> is what the topic references
15:52:34 <ehird> not a french channel :P
15:52:38 -!- impomatic has joined.
15:52:56 <ehird> !translateto Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:52:59 <ehird> !translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:04 <ehird> !translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:06 <pikhq> I heard about it at USENIX in 2008; there was a freaking genetic programming language they had devised and were using to modify bacteria.
15:53:13 <ehird> `translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:16 <ais523> ehird: is that an EgoBot or HackEgo feature?
15:53:22 <ehird> `translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be?
15:53:24 <Pthing> I had not heard of an actual programming language
15:53:28 <ais523> which might explain why it isn't working
15:53:30 <Pthing> or what that would imply :|
15:53:42 <ehird> Lim: qu'est-ce que vous pensez que cette chaîne était d'environ?
15:53:53 <Pthing> you don't mean the iGEM parts, do you?
15:54:02 <ais523> ehird: run through an online translator?
15:54:09 <Lim> je me suis dit qu'on parle d'esoterisme ici
15:54:30 <Lim> et je suis venu voir
15:54:46 <ehird> Lim: bizarre ( «ésotériques»), les langages de programmation, en fait. mais nous sommes surtout hors sujet!
15:55:17 <ais523> I think Lim was probably referring to the topic
15:55:17 <Lim> ici on parle de programmation !!
15:55:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
15:55:27 <ehird> Qui a dit que Google Translate ne fonctionne pas?
15:56:06 -!- ehird has set topic: This is not valable Anglais. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:56:43 * ais523 wonders what the second most spoken language is here
15:56:53 -!- Lim has left (?).
15:56:54 <ais523> maybe Korean? there certainly used to be quite a few Koreans here
15:57:21 <impomatic> Has #esoteric officially switched languages?
15:57:29 <ehird> impomatic: Just to talk to someone ;-)
15:57:40 <ehird> ais523: Deewiant, fizzie, Ilari, ineiros
15:57:45 <ehird> may be more finns hanging around
15:57:51 <ais523> impomatic: nah, it was a one-off joke
15:58:01 <Pthing> finns are everywhere :||
15:58:06 <ais523> ehird: but fungot doesn't have a "there" command
15:58:06 <fungot> ais523: of course. to connect to ports and send things how it pleases
15:58:20 <ais523> that's quite a generic command, though
15:58:22 <ehird> Je pense que nous devrions tous nous parler par l'intermédiaire de Google Translate, raison: il est fun.
15:58:29 <ais523> which would explain why you gave it without arguments
15:58:46 <ehird> ais523: intercal needs a command like that
15:58:49 <impomatic> And can anyone output the string "Hello Reddit!" in Brainfuck with a program less than 113 characters
15:58:51 <ehird> connects to a random machine on a random port and sends random data
15:58:55 <ais523> I think CLC-INTERCAL has one, pretty much
15:58:55 <ehird> !bf_txtgen Hello Reddit!
15:59:02 <ais523> ehird: no way that that will win
15:59:05 <EgoBot> 117 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+.>. [729]
15:59:06 <ais523> bf_txtgen is rather inefficient
15:59:12 <ais523> although, that was impressive
15:59:36 <ais523> ok, we should be able to optimise that down 5 times
15:59:58 <ehird> Twitfuck: a Brainfuck program under 140 characters that does something fun.
16:00:11 <ais523> !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
16:00:13 <ehird> The uncomfortable double-meaning as cybersex over Twitter is welcomed.
16:00:14 <EgoBot> 48 +++++[>+++++++++++++>++>><<<<-]>..............>. [756]
16:00:23 <ais523> ah yes, it adds a final newline
16:00:31 <ais523> just removing that would shorten the program
16:00:43 <ais523> you could get rid of the >+< in the loop and the >. at the end
16:00:47 <ais523> is that cheating, though?
16:00:53 <ehird> Deutsch, als von Natur aus komisch Sprache, ist die neue Sprache für die Übersetzung meiner Dummheit.
16:01:07 <ehird> ais523: "Hello Reddit!" doesn't end with \n :P
16:01:08 <ais523> impomatic: do you require a final newline?
16:01:22 <ehird> lol google translate roundtripped silliness as stupidity
16:01:32 <ais523> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+.
16:01:45 <ais523> 112 characters, if I counted correctly
16:02:04 <ais523> !c printf("%d",strlen("++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+."))
16:02:18 <ais523> wow, that took longer to compile than I expected
16:02:36 <impomatic> I didn't include a newline in mine, so that beats the one I just posted: http://tr.im/v3ER
16:03:18 <ais523> this channel embarasses people; you ask a hard question, and the bots give you an answer to it in a few seconds
16:03:42 <ehird> we're at the forefront of the singularity! :p
16:03:47 <ehird> soon, we'll just replace ourselves with bots
16:03:53 <ehird> after all, the humans don't contribute all that much to the channel
16:04:14 <ais523> impomatic: your Underload suggestion is pretty short
16:05:21 <ais523> you should respond to the person who posted that awful BF with the bot's nice semi-optimised BF, though
16:05:34 <ais523> a competent human could beat it, but I'm not sure if any would be bothered
16:05:40 <ais523> (although I notice dbc is here...)
16:05:47 -!- pikhq has joined.
16:05:49 <ais523> (and he's /very/ good at BF golfing)
16:05:52 <pikhq> Pthing: Well, it was more "programming-esque", in that it was a textual way of composing small blocks of genes with specific functioning together.
16:06:00 <impomatic> I responded with a hand written 113 instruction BF
16:06:11 <mycroftiv> i think ive fallen into a parallel universe, i did not realize there were places where issues like 'brainfuck code quality' were actually of community interest :)
16:06:12 <Pthing> yeah, they're called codons
16:06:16 <ehird> ais523: dbc is amazing at all golfing
16:06:16 <ehird> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/siersig.c
16:06:19 <Pthing> Do you have a cite for them or something?
16:06:19 <ais523> impomatic: the response doesn't seem to have shown up
16:06:27 <ehird> the only entry to my chaos game method sierpinski golf in C :)
16:06:41 <ais523> mycroftiv: BF code quality is done as a competitive sport, because there's no other reason to do it
16:06:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: parallel universe? doesn't that contradict QUANTUM DARWINISM?
16:06:59 <ehird> SEEEEEEEEEEEEERVED
16:07:04 <Pthing> That was my first thought
16:07:19 <ehird> I'll speci your ation.
16:07:24 <pikhq> Pthing: No, it was a speech that I saw. And it was awesome.
16:07:41 <mycroftiv> ais523: to the extent i or people i knew preiously messed with brainfuck, just getting it to do anything was considered the 'badge of achievement'
16:08:05 <pikhq> mycroftiv: But that's not even all that hard!
16:08:07 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
16:08:11 <ais523> ooh, we still have choo here
16:08:14 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
16:08:19 <pikhq> You can compile C into it (not well)!
16:08:24 <fungot> Testing esting sting ting ing ng g
16:08:47 <ehird> impomatic: Maybe you're banned :)
16:08:52 <ehird> by the autospambotbannerthingy
16:09:03 <ehird> I had a thing where the author of a comment s—
16:09:12 <mycroftiv> sure, if you use the algorithmic approach, i dont see any reason why you couldnt procedurally port and build kde4 to/from brainfuck if you felt like building the necessary bits of glue, right?
16:09:31 <ehird> impomatic: http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/94s1u/ohsorry/c0bfs8r
16:09:37 <ehird> so reddit may be having issues
16:09:38 <ais523> although I'm trying to do that with programs about as complicated as NetHack, via gcc-bf
16:09:42 <ais523> which I need to finish some time
16:09:57 * ais523 waits for someone to mention PSOX
16:10:20 <pikhq> I especially love how gcc-bf has filesystem emulation going.
16:10:29 <ais523> written but not tested in any way
16:10:37 <ais523> and the filesystem is slightly simpler than DOS 1's
16:11:08 <pikhq> And since the idea is to just be a hosted implementation of C, it's not like you need a *complex* filesystem.
16:11:19 <ehird> ais523: how does it compare to MFS?
16:11:32 <ais523> ehird: I don't know of MFS
16:11:45 <ais523> but basically, it's a malloced dictionary, implemented using linear search
16:11:50 <ais523> so you couldn't really get much worse
16:11:54 <ehird> ais523: it had resource forks but not directories
16:11:55 <ehird> Folders existed as a concept on the original MFS-based Macintosh, but worked completely differently from the way they do on modern systems. They were visible in Finder windows, but not in the open and save dialog boxes. There was always one empty folder on the volume, and if it was altered in any way (such as by adding or renaming files), a new Empty Folder would appear, thus providing a way to create new folders. MFS stored all of the file and directory lis
16:12:06 <ais523> well, bffs doesn't have directories at all
16:12:11 <ehird> ting information in a single file. The Finder created the "illusion" of folders, by storing all files as a directory handle/file handle pair. To display the contents of a particular folder, MFS would scan the directory for all files in that handle. There was no need to find a separate file containing the directory listing.
16:12:11 <impomatic> ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++++>+++>+++>++<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>++.<<<<++++++++++.>>.-..>------.<<----.>>>+.
16:12:17 <ehird> ais523: yes, but MFS is more perverse
16:12:24 <ehird> structured metadata but no folders… but crazily hacked up folders
16:12:33 <ais523> impomatic: at least you have 3 nested loops there, which is always fun to see
16:12:39 <ais523> ooh, and the innermost is unbalanced
16:12:49 <ais523> that must have driven you mad trying to write that
16:12:53 <ehird> i wonder if esotope can optimise that
16:13:07 <impomatic> Not really, just took five minutes
16:13:10 <pikhq> To what extent is a good question.
16:16:01 <ais523> seems I don't have a copy of in-between here to test, and I'm pretty sure I don't have a copy of esotope-bfc either
16:16:23 <mycroftiv> ok, you guys have inspired me to do something i think needs to be done - and that is write up a short paper trying to explain why i think that Zurek's work makes the idea that information theory is the fundamental ontology of the universe approach the status of 'proven, so long as QED remains experimentally valid'
16:17:04 <ais523> you only said that so you could watch people trying to parse it, didn't you?
16:17:29 <mycroftiv> ais523: if that was the case, i would have been more careful with the grammar :(
16:17:41 <mycroftiv> since trying to parse it myself reading it now, i stumble a bit
16:19:34 <ais523> it didn't help that I expanded "QED" the wrong way at a first reading
16:20:27 <mycroftiv> ais523: ouch, thats definitely an invalid typecast when i parse it that way
16:20:45 <mycroftiv> it almost godel statement's my head.
16:20:47 -!- pikhq has quit ("Lost terminal").
16:20:53 <impomatic> I been playing with a 4 instruction Forth. >R R> R@ and -
16:21:00 <ehird> impomatic: oklopol commented on that
16:21:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: "I'll gödel statement your sexual organs, if you know what I mean."
16:21:20 <ehird> (first person to use that IRL gets a cookie. a Gödel cookie.)
16:21:56 <ais523> hey, someone just prodded a page on Esolang, and we don't even have a prod template
16:22:03 <ehird> impomatic: my comment was the first one, the nitpick :P
16:22:16 <ehird> ais523: oh, right, I was going to ask you to delete two pages
16:22:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: hmm, couldnt you just embed a good old fashioned paradox in them? if you can prove a false stament, you can prove any statement, so i could then prove 'i have sex with you' to anyone i wish via the broken logical system
16:22:25 <ais523> ehird: I've probably deleted one already
16:22:40 <ais523> but http://esolangs.org/wiki/MonkeyCode is rather mystifying, it reminds me of a schrodilan which has already gone off
16:22:40 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/More, because it isn't even a language that the author of the page invented, isn't interesting, is a stupid, and is worth zilch
16:22:46 <impomatic> Thanks anonymous ;-) I left the comment, but fixed the typo
16:23:29 <ais523> ehird: I do think the idea of using #!/bin/tail is a mildly clever one (which I also came up with)
16:23:33 <ehird> ais523: The second is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute because it's semantically meaningless, the interpreter isn't, could only be created by someone with the intellect of a 2 year old and is in just about every which way pointless, but then we have precedent for keeping those sorts of pages.
16:23:35 <ais523> but I was planning to use it in esoteric Perl
16:23:42 <ehird> Also, it's so mildly clever that EVERYONE has figured it out.
16:23:45 <ehird> Besides, not a language.
16:23:50 <ais523> ehird: yes, I think we should leave it in the jokes list
16:23:59 <ais523> as it's a common and fundamental type of joke that we don't actually have yet
16:24:08 <impomatic> I'm trying to implement enough to prove that >R R> R@ and - are Turing complete.
16:24:10 <ehird> we have that, actually, ais523
16:24:28 <ehird> ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/QWERTY_Keyboard_Dot_Language
16:24:50 <ais523> ehird: that doesn't have the "No IO" feature that makes it implementable
16:24:53 <ais523> which is, I suspect, the real joke
16:24:58 <ais523> s/implementable/"implementable"/
16:24:58 <ehird> ais523: Compute isn't implementable, either
16:25:07 <ehird> it isn't computing if you don't actually compute it
16:25:20 <ais523> anyway, it's a bad joke, but not so bad that it's worthy of deletion
16:25:29 <ais523> and I agree, we do have precedent for keeping that sort of thing
16:25:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: actually a few quantum computing algorithms do their best to cheat on that, but i guess i wont argue the point
16:25:54 <ehird> but is it agreed that http://esolangs.org/wiki/More is an awful waste of space?
16:26:11 <ais523> ehird: I think it you could write a decent article about the subject, but that isn't it
16:26:24 <ais523> maybe as a section in a longer article about ways to abuse non-esolang programs
16:26:52 <ais523> it isn't wasting space, incidentally; deleted pages take up more space than non-deleted pages
16:26:58 <ehird> i mean semantic space
16:27:08 <ais523> it isn't in any cats, so it isn't wasting space that way either
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16:27:15 <ehird> disk space is a useless concept, anyway
16:27:18 <mycroftiv> ehird: if you are worried about the informational ethics of deleting pointless pages i advise you to apply the 'in 500 billion years nobody care and this irks my aesthetics, good bye'
16:27:19 <ehird> we can store anything these days for peanuts
16:27:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: Sorry, no; I'm a packrat. :)
16:28:02 <ais523> anyway, can anyone deduce a language spec from this: http://nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode
16:28:06 <ehird> Also, *I'd* quite like to care in roughly that time, if by sheer luck we get brain scanning before I become all stupid n' shit.
16:28:16 <ais523> hmm... let's try web archive
16:28:45 <ehird> i'm sure i've seen monkey code before
16:29:24 <ais523> http://web.archive.org/web/20050311210617/http://www.nocluestudios.com/ <--- I preferred eso-std.org's placeholder
16:29:54 <ehird> I still say :> was the narrator, not a spaceship
16:29:55 <ais523> in fact, all the pages in the web archive for nocluestudios have placeholders worded pretty similarly
16:30:04 <ais523> it hasn't archived any actual content
16:30:14 <ehird> prolly it's always been like that
16:30:24 <ais523> so, did this language ever exist?
16:30:56 <ehird> There's a tunes.org log entry about it
16:31:00 <ehird> Apparently it has no branching.
16:31:08 <ehird> and the interp only ran on windows and was closed-source
16:31:23 -!- ehird has set topic: Old dudes who know Brainfuck | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:31:25 <ais523> so, worse than deadfish?
16:31:35 <ehird> not that bad, probably
16:31:47 <ais523> still, deadfish caught on massively, somehow
16:32:12 <ehird> 10:55:56 --- join: DawnLight (n=DawnLigh@82.166.248.171) joined #esoteric
16:32:13 <ehird> 10:56:09 <DawnLight> are you guys crazy?
16:32:50 <ais523> and really, how can we respond to that?
16:33:12 <ais523> ehird: what date is the tunes.org log entry?
16:33:16 <ais523> we should link to it on the monkeycode page
16:33:23 <ehird> google the url of the site
16:33:25 <ais523> to make it actually have some content at least
16:33:47 <ais523> Your search - http://www.nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode - did not match any documents.
16:33:54 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out).
16:34:19 <ais523> ah, it works without the www
16:34:36 <ehird> 12:59:14 <ttm> It's 1 PM, so I should get some sleep.
16:34:40 <mycroftiv> if the creator of monkeycode knew how many neurons of the great minds of our time were pursuing his work, im sure hed be shocked
16:35:33 <ehird> we're not that clever/
16:36:37 <ehird> I'm not sure I'd be as good as programmer at all if I didn't have a computer when I was 3
16:36:41 <ais523> anyway, someone prodded for notability reasons, we don't do that on esolang
16:36:47 <ehird> mostly environment
16:37:12 <mycroftiv> you say that now, but wait until one of your clever little esoteric language loops actually happens to compile itself upon reading to neural level executable and you become the first human/algorithm hybrid consciousness
16:37:38 <ehird> but i'm planning on that!
16:38:43 <ehird> it's like a deletion vote without the voting
16:38:50 <ehird> i.e., "Hey, this should be deleted."
16:39:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: you need to contextualise!
16:39:09 <ais523> on Wikipedia, it means it can be deleted with 1 support and without objection within 7 days
16:39:17 <ais523> so it is a vote, sort of
16:39:24 <ais523> just one that has to be unanimous, and where people don't actually bother to vote
16:39:28 <ehird> 15:14:53 <ehird`> penguin benchmark avocado
16:39:28 <ehird> 15:15:13 <immibis> ?
16:39:28 <ehird> 15:15:29 <ehird`> immibis coil fortress modulo sailing
16:39:29 <ehird> 15:15:49 <immibis> ?
16:39:29 <ehird> 15:16:00 <ehird`> ?
16:39:29 <ehird> 15:16:18 <immibis> what are you talking about
16:39:31 <ehird> 15:16:38 <ehird`> deftly turtle english markup
16:42:32 <impomatic> I suppose I ought to get some programming done
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17:23:17 <oerjan> <ehird> . http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons <-- fascinating
17:23:30 <ehird> they're not really particles
17:23:41 <ehird> just like, ways to describe fluctuations between particles or sth
17:23:43 <ehird> physicist on reddit said
17:23:50 <Slereah_> Plenty of things are not real particles
17:23:52 <ehird> also there's a good thing in the io9 comments, layman explanation
17:23:57 <ehird> you can probably find the comments on reddit
17:24:11 <Slereah_> They're still the same mathematically
17:24:12 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/96j3t/electron_split_into_2_new_quantum_particles/c0bljcd
17:24:17 <ehird> ↑ angry scientist is angry
17:25:29 <Pthing> he should join the Union of Concerned Scientists
17:25:38 <Pthing> http://www.ucsusa.org/
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18:09:13 <oerjan> "Esola was a secret convent of gnostic Armenian hermits founded in Anatolia in the 9th century. Most of the monks were wiped out in 1917 in an event which the Turkish government denies to this day. A few of the monks were able to flee to America, where they founded EsolaNG."
18:10:10 <oerjan> ehird: are you not aware of our proud tradition?
18:10:48 <ehird> lol it's like, i put esola in my google field
18:11:01 <ehird> and i was like, ok, that must be EsolaNG
18:11:04 <oerjan> well i guess it _is_ secret. at least when there are turks nearby.
18:11:04 <ehird> so i typed esolang
18:11:06 <ehird> and saw "esolang wiki"
18:11:12 <ehird> well right the wikipedia article
18:12:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later").
19:08:33 <ehird> [[I’m sorry, I think char strings are a really bad solution, but the XML thing is just as bad. I use my own lib to make everystring a number, every word a number. Makes programs that do the same things with 100 times less code, thousands times faster, and I have measured it, this is not a theoretical statement like yours.]]
19:09:37 <ehird> Huh… CUPS is made by Apple.
19:09:42 <ehird> I assume coppro doesn't use it :-P
19:18:52 <ehird> "The top of the cube with ample room for ventilation and a slot below for DVDs or CD-ROMs. Look ma! No fans!" // yeah, right :P
19:24:05 <ais523> ehird: who said that, and why
19:24:21 <ais523> the quote just after oerjan left
19:24:30 <ais523> well, immediately after, there was quite a timelag
19:24:37 <ais523> also, aren't all strings numbers already?
19:24:50 <ehird> yeah i really don't know man
19:24:53 <ehird> it's a fucked up quote :P
19:26:53 <ehird> (the quote after that was from a review of the G4 Cube; evidently theirs had not yet overheated :P)
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20:34:12 <ehird> [ehird:~/Documents/LimeChat Transcripts] % cat */* | grep '^..:.. ehird' | awk '{for (i = 3; i < NF; i++) print $i }' | sort | uniq -ic | sort -n | e
20:34:56 <ehird> the a to is I it you of and that in AnMaster:
20:35:18 <ehird> Things like "for", "not", "it's", "be", "has", "on", "with", "as" and "do" come below "AnMaster:".
20:35:25 <ehird> That is hilarious.
20:35:50 <ehird> to avoid dupliciciciates
20:36:53 <ehird> [ehird:~/Documents/LimeChat Transcripts] % cat */* | grep '^..:.. ehird' | awk '{for (i = 3; i < NF; i++) print $i }' | LC_ALL=C sort -f | uniq -ic | sort -rn | tr '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]'
20:37:00 <ehird> add | e at the end :P
20:38:10 <ehird> Many hapax legomenons.
20:38:28 <ehird> Long tail sort of thing.
20:51:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly are you measuring there?
20:51:28 <ehird> Just read the line; it's fairly obvious.
20:51:35 <AnMaster> frequency of word in phrases directed to you? I'm not faimilar with the log format
20:51:42 <ehird> HH:MM person: text
20:52:39 <AnMaster> guess: frequency of words in what you said yourself?
20:52:44 <AnMaster> not sure what the awk bit is there for
20:54:06 <AnMaster> oh wait, must be to cut away timestamp and ehird?
20:54:13 <ehird> Yes, although "ehird" is still the top word.
20:54:18 <ehird> AnMaster: $1 = HH:MM
20:54:53 <AnMaster> btw I found a new game. Sadly it doesn't run very well on the laptop. Due to the intel graphics
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20:55:29 <AnMaster> it's "vegastrike", an open source space game. seems quite fun so far, still learning how stuff in it works though...
20:56:17 <ehird> AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers?
20:56:24 <ehird> It should handle 3D better than your desktop, at least.
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21:33:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? <-- yes it uses the intel drivers. I get hardware acceleration even. (checked with glxgears), It even handles the game quite well when there aren't a lot of other ships on the screen. However when there are: my desktop handles it far better
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21:33:54 <AnMaster> the desktop however takes ages to load the game. And swaps out other programs while doing so.
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22:00:16 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? <-- yes it uses the intel drivers. I get hardware acceleration even. (checked with glxgears), It even handles the game quite well when there aren't a lot of other ships on the screen. However when there are: my desktop handles it far better
22:00:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Shoulda chosen the ATI graphics.
22:00:33 <AnMaster> ehird, a geforce 7600 isn't quite as bad as you think
22:01:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the drivers
22:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. still the game vegastrike seems quite graphics intensive with shaders and what not, and I won't need that advanced graphics
22:01:28 <ehird> iirc the intel drivers are slow
22:01:34 <ehird> i mean, really slow
22:01:40 <AnMaster> ehird, any better drivers then for linux?
22:01:49 <ehird> nah; they're working on it
22:02:22 <AnMaster> btw, I found this program by idle browsing in ubuntu's add/remove programs thingy in the game category
22:02:45 <ehird> yes, that's a nice way to find neat programs
22:03:00 <AnMaster> in the "not maintained by canonical" section
22:03:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I have a list of other games to try out. Found a few "sounds good by really quite bad" and some "better than it sounds" ones
22:03:38 <AnMaster> in the latter category: "kiki the nanobot"
22:04:00 <ehird> AnMaster: btw select all programs, not just non-canonical
22:04:07 <ehird> otherwise you're just excluding stuff for no reason :P
22:04:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah that is what I did
22:04:24 <AnMaster> "open source non-canon(ical)" ;P
22:04:39 <ehird> the best game is xjump
22:04:53 <ehird> best action-sorta game
22:04:55 <AnMaster> ehird, tried it before, and well, I just suck at it
22:05:03 <ehird> it's sort of the distilled essence of the fast-paced game
22:05:18 <ehird> turns out it's the fluff additions that make games easy :P
22:05:27 <AnMaster> anyway, their vegastrike package is a bit buggy. I'm not sure in what way, but background music only works when you docked to a space station, otherwise it spews python tracebacks in stdout
22:05:38 <ehird> that's prolly not the packaging
22:05:48 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it works correctly on gentoo
22:05:54 <AnMaster> using the upstream binary build
22:06:00 <ehird> drivers, infrastructure etc
22:06:36 <ehird> tbh xjump would be much easier if the whole world wasn't made of butter
22:06:50 <AnMaster> since 1) gentoo doesn't have a package for it 2) the binary package is 497 MB, most is data but it seems more of a pain to build it anyway
22:09:13 <AnMaster> oh and vegastrike might seem kind of dead when looking at their website (last commit in May) but it also seems very stable and complete, just found one minor bug/misfeature so far: they seem to use a custom font in the game, and when it is rendered at small size (only a few places, but then very long bits of text) it is very hard to read.
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22:09:32 <AnMaster> as in, the first vertical line in M goes missing. or very faint
22:09:56 <AnMaster> I *suspect* misuse of anti-aliasing.
22:10:21 <ehird> may isn't really dead
22:10:41 <AnMaster> oh and just now: white text on slightly off white bg = bad idea
22:10:54 <AnMaster> but that seems to be due to rendering text on a surface reflecting the sun
22:10:56 <ehird> on Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:43 pm
22:11:00 <ehird> that name is in rad
22:11:05 <AnMaster> if I turn the ship around it is close to black instead
22:11:05 <ehird> in the feature requests forum
22:11:55 <AnMaster> where is that column btw? under bug tracker?
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22:14:31 <AnMaster> anyway, if you like this type of games you might want to give it a try. No idea if you a) like them b) have a computer able to handle lots of shaders and special effects (though you can use the separate program vssetup to turn some of that off, yes that is right, settings are in a separate program)
22:14:49 <ehird> what kind of game is it?
22:14:50 <AnMaster> oh another thing, it is stretched on wide screen (unless you run in windowed mode)
22:15:01 <ehird> also, I have a mildly crappy gfx card from 2006
22:15:32 <ehird> i can run games from like 2002 at full res with everything turned on at high fps, so
22:15:39 <ehird> unless it's as intensive as commercial games, prolly fine
22:15:45 <ehird> AnMaster: can't you set black bars
22:15:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well... space simulator/game. You can notice they gave a half hearted try to simulate realistic physics then gave up and added a "SPEC-drive" so the game wouldn't take so long
22:15:59 <ehird> AnMaster: strategy?
22:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you pilot a ship, so not freeciv style of stratergy
22:16:28 <AnMaster> there is combat too, haven't yet figured out how it works
22:16:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but also peaceful trading if you want
22:17:40 <AnMaster> and there is a mission computer, haven't worked that out yet either, only done simple "by cargo at planet a, go to astroid b with mining facilities and sell it, buy other cargo, go back" stuff yet
22:18:27 <AnMaster> need to earn money to be able to buy a ship able to survive in combat. I strayed into an area with pirates first. Had to restore from savegame :)
22:19:19 <AnMaster> ehird, btw. you can use keyboard/mouse to control. In fact it even works quite well. Joystick is nice for when you are trying to fly into the docking port at a space station though. :)
22:20:03 <AnMaster> what is there to hate about joysticks :/
22:20:06 <ehird> Hilarious internet answer: Too phallic. Real answer: Movement isn't free-form enough, buttons are awkward.
22:20:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of joystick have you used then?
22:20:28 <AnMaster> buttons are well placed on this one
22:20:34 <ehird> nothing "high-end" or anything
22:20:53 <AnMaster> well, most, and there are enough of the well placed ones that you never need the non-well-placed ones
22:21:15 <ehird> no point spending money if i don't expect to like it
22:21:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and this one even doesn't need to be recalibrated very often. As in: maybe once / year or so
22:22:03 <ehird> anything that needs calibration sucks
22:22:27 <ehird> therefore, all joysticks suck.
22:22:57 <AnMaster> oh and there is no noisy potentiometers in it. It uses the hall effect to sense the position of the joystick instead. Which is really cool
22:24:13 * ehird configures LiteSwitch X to single-application mode
22:24:35 <ehird> (think: one app = one virtual desktop, pretty much)
22:25:04 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway: mouse works very well until you need to not just control pitch/yaw, but also roll. you can do it by keyboard but if you want to control speed at same time you really have a hard time compared to throttle/joystick combo
22:25:41 <ehird> I'd like a joystick that's basically a trackball with little dimples to grip
22:25:48 <ehird> AnMaster: a better cmd-tab window switcher
22:26:17 <AnMaster> interesting idea that trackball. it could handle the
22:26:23 <ehird> the single-application mode just means that whenever an application focuses, it hides all others
22:26:49 <ehird> you could also make it able to be pushed down quite a bit
22:27:02 <ehird> also, you could make the dimples be buttons
22:27:24 <ehird> i.e., the ball can be depressed
22:27:27 <ehird> (lol@that wording)
22:27:41 <AnMaster> ehird, might be hard to reach dimple-buttons when pressed down? unless I misunderstood you
22:27:47 <ehird> you'd keep your hand on it
22:27:50 <ehird> and it wouldn't go all the way
22:28:04 <ehird> you'd push with your palm
22:29:52 <AnMaster> I know people who built their own pedals for flight sim. though joysticks are probably a lot harder.
22:30:21 <AnMaster> ehird, if you push it with your palm, won't that push all the buttons too?
22:31:41 <ehird> AnMaster: no, they're dimples
22:31:55 <ehird> you'd have to get your finger n
22:32:07 <AnMaster> ah right. thought they were more shallow
22:32:15 <AnMaster> more like those on, say, a golf ball
22:32:48 <AnMaster> so you mean something between them and the whole on a bowling ball?
22:33:16 <ehird> can't really describe it
22:33:53 <ehird> of course it could only have one function
22:33:58 <ehird> and you couldn't hold and spin
22:34:43 <AnMaster> I tend to use 2-3 buttons at the same time as I'm moving the joystick, and also the throttle and some button on it
22:35:20 <AnMaster> as in, try landing in a flight sim with a harrier. that is/was the brittish jet that can land vertically
22:35:52 <AnMaster> then you need to handle pitch/yaw/roll/throttle/thrust_vector at the same time :)
22:37:48 <ehird> i'd just buy a real plane.
22:39:50 <AnMaster> ehird, would be much more expensive and, 1) getting a flight cert 2) fuel 3) the actual plane, and since iirc it is still in service... And I don't think there is a large "black" market for them.
22:40:52 <AnMaster> oh and the real aircraft *does* have a joystick. And it needs not only calibration but lots of other sorts of expensive maintenance!
22:41:36 <ehird> sweet and app that makes your cursor wrap around xD
22:42:07 <AnMaster> a bit hard to get used to I imagine...
22:42:20 <pikhq> ehird: Why yes, buying a real plane would be more fun.
22:42:25 <pikhq> But, you see, that *costs money*.
22:42:31 <ehird> easier to buy your mom
22:43:02 <pikhq> Shush you. Just because you were born of a prostitute doesn't mean everyone's mother is that way.
22:43:31 * ehird would like to make clicking the desktop -not- focus the finder…
22:43:36 * ehird looks in liteswitch x prefs
22:43:52 <pikhq> ehird: Liteswitch X?
22:44:07 <ehird> pikhq: It's an OS X application that makes switching applications Not Suck.
22:44:22 <AnMaster> "erstwhile" <-- just wondering, would any of you use this word instead of "once"?
22:44:43 <AnMaster> ehird, right. I had to define: it
22:44:44 <ehird> Because I'm not _that_ pretentious
22:45:06 <ehird> ERSTWHILE, IT DID HAPPENSTANCE UPON ME THAT THE CURRENT METHOD FOR CALCULATING NUMERICAL VALUES IS PERHAPS NOT IDEAL
22:45:32 <pikhq> ehird: Oh, so you've talked to me IRL? :P
22:45:46 <ehird> pikhq: No, but if that's what you sound like I'll avoid it :P
22:46:04 <pikhq> ehird: I exaggerate.
22:46:16 <pikhq> IRL, I sound like me on IRC.
22:46:25 <pikhq> Only, more vocalising.
22:46:32 <AnMaster> "<ehird> once, IT DID coincidence UPON ME THAT THE CURRENT METHOD FOR CALCULATING NUMERICAL VALUES IS PERHAPS NOT IDEAL" <-- Is it supposed to make sense?
22:46:43 <ehird> AnMaster: just s/happenstance/occur/
22:46:52 <ehird> cmd-return/shift is a nice keycombo for switching apps
22:46:56 <ehird> not like that evil cmd-tab
22:47:00 <ehird> and the rsi it doth dole out
22:47:27 <AnMaster> ehird, where is the cmd key then exactly? Isn't it the one closest to the space key?
22:47:34 <ehird> control, option, cmd
22:47:45 <ehird> cmd and control are longer than option
22:47:59 <AnMaster> how can cmt-tab be *that* bad then. Ctrl-tab I would have understood better
22:48:10 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.circa1978.com/v1/images/mackeyboards_compared.jpg the bottom one
22:48:14 <ehird> also, my hands are small
22:48:18 <ehird> so i have my thumb on cmd
22:48:35 <ehird> then i have to tab multiple times
22:48:42 <ehird> compare to using the bottom of my pinky to hold tab
22:48:46 <ehird> and tapping return/shift
22:48:49 <ehird> (shift goes backwards)
22:49:17 <ehird> i could use the other cmd key
22:49:23 <ehird> but shift would still be a pain
22:49:53 <AnMaster> bottom of the pinky? Huh. *suggests raising the chair a bit*
22:50:29 <ehird> AnMaster: if I raised my chair much more, the top of my legs would hit the keyboard stand
22:50:51 <AnMaster> ehird, bottom of pinky? Don't you mean the base of the finger, close to where it is attached to the hand, with that?
22:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: the top of my pinky (i.e. key-hitter) then rests on s
22:51:21 <AnMaster> well, that makes my next finger press down space if I try it on the key next to space here (which is alt)
22:51:22 <ehird> look at that pic of the kb and you get the idea
22:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: not here
22:51:45 <ehird> I don't use a home-row orientation
22:52:03 <AnMaster> how do you place your hands then?
22:52:29 <AnMaster> I'd like to see the pinky manoeuvre (sp??)
22:52:43 <AnMaster> (looks more like French to me. bah)
22:53:07 <ehird> AnMaster: or Maneuver
22:53:17 <ehird> which is more common
22:53:33 <ehird> manoeuvre - Wiktionary
22:53:34 <ehird> 9 Jun 2009 ... From the French noun manoeuvre and verb manoeuvrer, from Old French manovrer, from Vulgar Latin *manuoperare, from Latin manu (“'by hand'”) ...
22:53:35 <AnMaster> this aspell dict sucks. it thinks maneuver is invalid
22:53:40 <ehird> AnMaster: is it british english?
22:53:51 <ehird> I think maneuver is American in origin
22:54:00 <ehird> my dictionary here rejects it too
22:54:30 <AnMaster> I refuse to use a dict that things "colorize" is an existing word.
22:55:01 <ehird> and don't reply with something perscriptivist— like that—
22:55:14 <ehird> AnMaster: why are you talking in modern english?
22:55:19 <ehird> somebody just made up those words, too
22:55:42 * AnMaster declares jashdflkaeiljahalqjvc to be a word
22:55:55 <ehird> sure, if you convince a lot of people to
23:09:27 <ehird> Dear Google: I searched "disable dock leopard", not "disable 3d dock leopard".
23:14:01 <ehird> "Home Folder, other folders - I will never understand these as I am the only user on my computer. I want everything as close to the main drives as possible."
23:14:01 <ehird> Sometimes, I think instating a law that you only have free speech if you know what the fuck you're talking about would be a good thing.
23:15:08 <ehird> An idiot whining about idiotic things on some random mac forum I found while googling.
23:15:19 <ehird> [[I guess I get so upset with the braindead design of the function of most of these programs because they have so much potential. Its like you have somebody that does some excellent groundwork, then some illogical, prancing, faggot in drag wants to make things pretty and ruins all the planning of the previous designer who was laying out the groundwork so meticulously. And then the upper management OK's the pretty boy ignoring the logic shown beforehand.]]
23:16:17 <pikhq> Good description of Windows. Except that there's no excellent groundwork.
23:23:44 <ehird> - Configure Overflow to my liking
23:35:31 <GregorR-L> - (Continue to) Configure #esoteric to my liking
23:35:31 <ehird> <GregorR-L> - Configure ehird to my liking
23:36:02 <GregorR-L> I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine"
23:37:53 <ehird> GregorR-L: I cannot figure out how to fit [23:36] GregorR-L: I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine" into any sort of context whatsoever.
23:38:15 <ehird> But if you're fucking cauliflower, why not use a tractor?
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23:50:15 <augur> the machine is gaying
23:50:18 <augur> its becoming more and more gay
23:50:34 <ehird> no, I think the machine makes things older and gayer
23:50:46 <ehird> now how on earth that relates to anything GregorR-L… I have no clue
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23:51:19 <oerjan> it's a homogeneous machine?
23:52:21 <ehird> [23:35] ehird: <GregorR-L> - Configure ehird to my liking
23:52:21 <ehird> [23:36] GregorR-L: I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine"
23:52:28 <ehird> thinking + science = COMPREHENSION
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23:53:11 <pikhq> I am not entirely sure why you also want it to be a gaying machine.
23:53:32 <ehird> Uhh… I'm gonna assume that if, to make someone to your liking, you need to make them more gay, then that makes you gay.
23:53:32 <GregorR-L> I have peculiar notions of what the definition of "liking" is? :P
23:53:47 <ehird> But that's just me, what with my science and all.
23:53:52 <oerjan> ehird: you know, even _i_ am close to accepting that logic
23:53:59 <ehird> It makes you go upwards and rightwards.
23:54:20 <GregorR-L> I wouldn't apply the gaying machine to women, I'll have a separate straighting machine if necessary for that.
23:55:01 <oerjan> i guess choosing between the machines would be a bifurcation
23:55:15 <ehird> no that's if he's a furry
23:56:46 <ehird> Better a bi furry vacation!
23:56:55 <oerjan> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bi-furry
23:57:18 <GregorR-L> One of my colleagues here is a furry >_> ... it's ... awkward?
23:57:34 <oerjan> i am starting to dislike google's tendency to give hits that don't actually exist in the page
23:57:49 <oerjan> (vocation is nowhere to be seen)
23:58:14 <GregorR-L> I think if you quote it it won't do that.
23:59:03 <GregorR-L> It just occurred to me that I'm on a vocation vacation ... I think?
23:59:40 <oerjan> you're not supposed to think on vacation
23:59:52 <GregorR-L> Then I guess it's not a vacation at all :P