00:00:50 <Gracenotes> ooh, it's really picking up now, 56 KB/s
00:00:50 -!- ehird has set topic: I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
00:01:13 <ehird> Gracenotes: 700KB/s in your face bitch.
00:01:20 <pikhq> Gracenotes: 56 kilobytes per second is tolerable.
00:01:33 <pikhq> I miss my campus Internet connection, though.
00:01:39 <pikhq> 10 megabits/sec. :D
00:01:59 <ehird> <korea> 131072KB/s in your face bitch.
00:02:37 <ehird> pikhq: Seriously? You can get 24mbit/s for, like, regular internet prices in the UK, as long as you don't live somewhere odd like me.
00:02:46 <Gracenotes> I do miss my campus connection too, it peaked at 800 KB/s, but better than this
00:03:00 <ehird> And we even have fibre-optic 25/50mbit in some places.
00:03:04 <pikhq> ehird: Erm. Actually, I think that was s/bits/bytes/
00:03:05 <ehird> And Scandinavia has 100mbit up the wazoo.
00:03:21 <ehird> Korea has 1Gbit, but I don't think servers are fast enough :P
00:03:24 <pikhq> And yes, seriously. You can hardly get 10mbit/s here.
00:03:37 <ehird> Some internet guy's grandma got 4Gbit as a promotional thingy to encourage companies to speed up the interwebs.
00:03:52 <ehird> pikhq: so you got ~80mbit
00:03:55 <pikhq> Here in the US, that would be 50Mbit.
00:04:13 <Gracenotes> dude, 1586 software packages are going to be upgraded to 8.10
00:04:23 <ehird> Gracenotes: That's… not a lot.
00:04:39 <ehird> pikhq: I conjecture that US technology sucks so much because you have a shitty economy.
00:04:44 <ehird> Gracenotes: Peanuts.
00:05:27 <ehird> Gracenotes: n-draft, bitch.
00:05:32 <ehird> 100mbit/sec TCP/IP wireless.
00:05:42 <ehird> Most wireless chips support it nowadays and routers are affordable.
00:06:04 <Gracenotes> plus, I think my ISP has it out for me ;_;
00:06:44 <ehird> ALL TECHNOLOGY SUCKS
00:07:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
00:07:39 <ehird> I WILL NOW SOLVE THE EVERYTHING PROBLEM BY ENSLAVING EVERYONE
00:07:45 <ehird> AND FORCING THEM TO MAKE THINGS THAT DO NOT SUCK
00:08:10 <Gracenotes> let me see.. which video had I downloaded.. ah. Team America time
00:34:32 <ehird> it's nice to only have one app at once
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00:57:11 <ehird> [[Wrong again. It's an ancient Zionist symbol for "jew-gold".]]
01:01:23 <pikhq> I know of no context where that is *not* a blatantly antisemetic comment.
01:01:43 <ehird> pikhq: When it's part of a reddit joke-thread.
01:01:56 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/96vkn/inwe_trust_start_the_movement/c0bmz17
01:03:22 <ehird> It's also possible to oppose zionism but not jews, but obviously that comment wouldn't exactly fit that if it were serious.
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01:05:18 <ehird> Who're you, where did you come from, and where am I?
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01:05:46 <mycroftiv> who was the originator of the quote "wherever you go, there you are"
01:06:07 <ehird> http://www.figmentfly.com/bb/popculture4.html
01:06:16 <ehird> According to Danial M, "The quotation is much more ancient ... from around 1440 AD. You can find the following quote at http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2006/002/14.73.html : "So, the cross is always ready and waits for you everywhere. You cannot escape it no matter where you run, for wherever you go you are burdened with yourself. Wherever you go, there you are." —Thomas a Kempis, Imitation of Christ, ca. A.D. 1440
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01:07:01 <ehird> Well, that guy wouldn't have lasted long anyway.
01:07:09 <mycroftiv> um, sorry for being offtopic and alienating him, or whatever happened
01:07:17 <ehird> Sorry for being offtopic?
01:09:26 <mycroftiv> i certainly struck gold with that random question, seems like further scholarship is definitely needed
01:11:28 <ehird> i wish i had the ability to be interested in utterly boring things :(
01:12:01 <mycroftiv> im interested in everything, sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
01:12:23 <GregorR-L> `addquote <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
01:12:25 <HackEgo> 58|<mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
01:13:24 <ehird> mycroftiv: can i take a guess at the secret to such interest?
01:13:28 <ehird> the guess is "lots and lots of drugs"
01:13:49 <ehird> (failing that, "insanity")
01:14:08 <pikhq> ehird: I have similar problems from time to time.
01:14:20 <ehird> It sounds wonderful!
01:14:29 <mycroftiv> thats probably correct, its been a long time since 'the day' but i think i probably blew out (or woke up) some unusual synaptic structures duing the years 1990-97 or so
01:14:33 <pikhq> Well, for certain definitions of "problem".
01:14:44 <pikhq> ehird, 's called "autism".
01:15:06 <ehird> It's called autism if you define autism to be not being able to get out of bed because the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective.
01:15:15 <ehird> This would happen to be a definition without much precedent.
01:15:31 <pikhq> Just an aspect thereof.
01:15:38 <pikhq> Crap definition for it, though.
01:15:42 <ehird> Fun fact: Autism makes you shit flowers, rainbows and a keen interest in stamps.
01:15:53 <ehird> Also, you can fly.
01:15:57 <pikhq> Makes you shit a keen interest in stamps?
01:16:15 <mycroftiv> ehird: as for the 'you can fly' - google some disney movie called 'the boy who could fly' - PROVEN FACT!
01:16:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: Hmm. That makes me want a smopes.com.
01:16:52 <ehird> It's like snopes, but has bullshit instead.
01:18:11 <Gracenotes> ..and the big ones haven't even come yet
01:18:23 <ehird> mycroftiv: No, he's upgrading from Ubuntu 8.04.
01:18:34 <ehird> Because apparently homework stopped him taking an hour to upgrade to 8.10 or 9.04.
01:18:57 <ehird> Your mental issues. :P
01:19:06 <ehird> …and that's saying something coming from me.
01:19:15 <mycroftiv> ugg, why try to inplace upgrade rather than do a clean install and transfer? isnt inplace upgrading both gonna take longer and (50%+ chance) bork your setup?
01:19:37 <ehird> It generally works fine on Ubuntu.
01:19:45 <mycroftiv> i say this is a long time debian + ooboontoo user
01:19:47 <ehird> It's just that most in-place upgrades suck.
01:19:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: wfm /shrug
01:20:18 <Gracenotes> clean install would probably take much longer with what I have
01:20:31 <pikhq> ehird: I still have trouble believing that most OSes can't do in-place upgrades.
01:20:46 <ehird> A decent component system handles it trivially.
01:20:58 <pikhq> Not because I disbelieve that such OSes exist, but that I disbelieve that we're still in the freaking 80s. :P
01:21:02 <ehird> Sometimes I think it should just deactivate all software that can't handle the new versions.
01:21:06 <ehird> That'd speed up compatibility.
01:21:16 <ehird> (You could, of course, manually activate the old version for certain programs.)
01:21:40 <mycroftiv> i guess everyone works out their own workflows, i always have about 4 bootable partitions per box, and when a new distro release comes out, i generally choose the oldest/least used partition, pull any data i want out of it, and install on top of that, leaving whatever my most used system pre-install untouched and just using/copying its data as needed
01:21:55 <pikhq> mycroftiv: I have yet to have a distro upgrade break for me.
01:22:01 <pikhq> ... I've been using Linux since 2002.
01:22:10 <mycroftiv> pikhq: i commend your administrative skills :)
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01:22:35 <pikhq> And no, I don't switch distros often.
01:22:42 <pikhq> I've been using Gentoo since like 2004 or 2005.
01:22:56 <ehird> Gentoo solves the X problem by making you do it all manually, forall X. :P
01:23:07 <pikhq> Along with Debian.
01:23:15 <ehird> For some definitions of Debian.
01:23:17 <mycroftiv> i dont think so, gentoo has a ton of automation, its really nice, dont you think?
01:23:32 <mycroftiv> stuff like eselect and so forth, i find gentoo easy to admin really
01:23:33 <ehird> But I mostly hate source-based distros in general.
01:23:42 <ehird> And I'm no fan of Gentoo users.
01:23:45 <pikhq> ehird: No, no. Just emerge -avuDN world && revdep-rebuild ;# et viola.
01:24:25 <Gracenotes> this is, of course, mah first distribution
01:24:42 <pikhq> My first distro was Slackware.
01:24:53 <pikhq> I suspect that's skewed most of my Linux usage.
01:26:15 <pikhq> After that, I toyed with Red Hat (eeeeeewwwww), Debian (stable was t3h old then, not just old), and eventually settled into Gentoo on my desktop and Debian on anything I don't want to fuck with.
01:27:48 <ehird> I like computers to do things for me.
01:28:13 <pikhq> Gentoo does things for me.
01:29:26 <pikhq> Whaddya mean, sort of?
01:29:40 <mycroftiv> the userland you get from any gnu/linux distro is always going to be equivalent or whatever the user wants, i havent found any significant differences other than the details of the init scripts and package managers between distros
01:30:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: Arch uses BSD init, which is nice.
01:30:06 <ehird> I do not like SysV init. It is not kind to me.
01:30:18 <mycroftiv> even if you switch to BSD the userland you tend to build doesnt seem very different to me at least
01:30:19 <pikhq> ehird, Gentoo uses neither.
01:31:00 <ehird> Unix is unix, so it is, so it sucks, but it's here and everyone who can do better — like, say, us — are sitting around on their asses doing nothing.
01:31:13 <mycroftiv> ehird: not true, im using and developing and releasing plan9 software
01:31:41 <pikhq> Well, actually, it uses SysV init, but only as a wrapper for /sbin/rc.
01:31:42 <ehird> Plan 9 isn't even significantly better; it progresses the Unix paradigm, thus running into its limits, but this is not much of an improvement.
01:31:47 <pikhq> (to minimize breakage)
01:31:50 <ehird> It just shows that, yes, it is a limited paradigm.
01:32:12 <mycroftiv> ehird: what about the 9p protocol and 9p fs interfaces as something entirely independent from plan9, despite having been developed as part of it?
01:32:41 <ehird> It's a hierarchical filesystem. I don't like them. They are not kind to me and they are not all that useful, and there are far better things.
01:32:56 <ehird> (Okay, they're related to hierarchical filesystems; whatever.)
01:33:32 <pikhq> ehird: It's the best we've got mostly because the alternative is a notable lack of paradigm. So, most people enter UNIX, are impressed that there *is* a paradigm, and dispute that it could even be changed for the better...
01:33:48 <pikhq> Combine with UNIX being good enough for most purposes, and you get 40 years of UNIX.
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01:34:02 <ehird> Yes, well, I rarely consider what other people want when dabbling in such things.
01:34:28 <mycroftiv> ehird: hrmph, im not sure what you say really makes sense from a fundamentals perspective - the idea that you can say hierarchical filesystems and the general idea of file i/o as semantics for how you 'control your turing machine' seems a bit broad...
01:34:48 <mycroftiv> you say they are 'not all that useful' which doesnt seem to make sense
01:35:09 <ehird> I just hate files as separate from objects, I hate disk as separate from memory, and I hate tree hierarchy.
01:35:34 <ehird> Orthogonal persistence — FUCK YEAH.
01:35:54 <ehird> Chuck in persistence of continuations and we've got some hot lovin' suspendable persistin' action.
01:36:03 <mycroftiv> ehird: ok, 9p actually i think addresses all of those concerns - it has the idea that 'objects == files' in its paradigm - it absolutely is designed to abstract away from disk vs. memory - and it doesnt impose a tree hierarchy, even
01:36:29 <pikhq> ehird: This is a very Smalltalkish way of doing things.
01:36:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: 9P is basically RPC, so it's a leaky abstraction. Anyway. No.
01:36:42 <ehird> 9P still has plain text as the quantum.
01:36:52 <ehird> I hate plain text for anything other than plain text.
01:36:56 <mycroftiv> what information cant be represented by plain text? none.
01:37:05 <ehird> mycroftiv: OK, then. Why does C have any types other than char *?
01:37:22 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, in a way it doesnt! it offers semantic labeling and handling for convenience
01:37:29 <ehird> It most certainly does, mycroftiv.
01:37:35 <mycroftiv> but as i surely dont need to explain to you, you get to cast anything to void...
01:37:51 <mycroftiv> recast as char, work with it that way...send it back, if itll fit...or maybe give you a nice crash...
01:37:58 <ehird> You will only get internal representations.
01:38:03 <ehird> That is not applicable to what I am talking about.
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01:39:08 <mycroftiv> i admit you are probably a lot more expert on this than i am, im just a guy who tries to write software to do stuff using the abstractions that make the most sense to me
01:39:29 <pikhq> mycroftiv: As an aside, have you considered learning Haskell?
01:39:39 <mycroftiv> pikhq: yeah, thats kind of a slow moving ongoing project for me
01:39:44 <ehird> Expert, mycroftiv? I'm just a deranged 13 year old. :P
01:39:54 <ehird> But consider me flattered or something.
01:40:02 <mycroftiv> well, you talk a good game, at least
01:40:10 <ehird> That's because I'm always right, duh.
01:40:34 <ehird> Anyway, the best way to come to love rich persisted objects is via orthogonal persistence.
01:40:51 <ehird> You never lose anything, when coding you never worry about losing anything, and it's truly a living environment of objects
01:40:55 <ehird> The idea is simple:
01:40:55 <mycroftiv> i love rich persisted objects, its exactly why i like plan9 and 9p :)
01:41:03 <ehird> All of memory is continually persisted to disk.
01:41:10 <ehird> Memory = cache for disk.
01:41:18 <ehird> There's no filesystem. No files.
01:41:32 <ehird> You have your runtime objects, and that's what you keep until you explicitly let go.
01:41:36 <mycroftiv> imagine theres no files...no filesystem too...you may say that im a dreamer...but im not the only one...
01:41:48 <ehird> Lennon was a Smalltalker.
01:42:06 <pikhq> ehird: So, Smalltalk.
01:42:16 <ehird> Yes, Smalltalk, dammit. :P
01:42:17 <mycroftiv> ehird: my opinion is that what you just described is exactly the plan9 and 9p design, with a merely semantic difference between the word 'object' and the word 'file'
01:42:22 <ehird> Though I don't think Smalltalk persisted.
01:42:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: Nononono, it's not.
01:42:37 <ehird> Make a value in Plan 9's C.
01:42:41 <ehird> You lose it if you have a crash.
01:42:45 <ehird> You lose it if your program terminates.
01:42:59 <ehird> You have to explicitly hook into the persistence mechanism and come up with a representation.
01:43:01 <ehird> That's not it at all.
01:43:09 <ehird> With orthogonal persistence, you just Use Objects Like That.
01:43:14 <ehird> And they stay there.
01:43:24 <mycroftiv> ehird: aha! ok, we are speaking of different layers - i am absolutely not talking about the plan9 os/kernel layer, but the layer of the 9p fs itself! surely smalltalk objects arent persistent if you smash the hsot machine with a hammer or delete the software?
01:43:47 <ehird> See, but orthogonal persistence IS OS layer.
01:44:01 <ehird> It's ubiquitous, that's why it works.
01:44:06 <mycroftiv> i completely agree taht you need to fully push these principles down to all layers, and that plan9 does not do that
01:44:25 <ehird> mycroftiv: Yes, and once you do that, you realise that you're persisting the rich objects and not a plain text representation of them.
01:44:41 <ehird> And you realise that there's a reason we program with those rich semantics, and no reason not to persist like that too.
01:45:06 <mycroftiv> sorry, as a turing fundamentalist, i dont think there is a difference between 'rich objects' and 'plain text' - unless you have a physical OS that isnt using binary at the transistor level?
01:45:16 * Gracenotes awaits finally being able to install anki
01:45:42 <ehird> mycroftiv: Your argument reeks of "Brainfuck is just as good as Haskell because they're both turing complete".
01:45:57 <ehird> But in practice, no, that's not how they match up.
01:46:11 <mycroftiv> no, i think im trying to stake out something much more limited, which is:
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01:46:30 <ehird> It's possible that we're agreeing but you're using awkward terminology.
01:46:31 <mycroftiv> "you cant critique 9p on the basis of the underlying OS any more than you can critique smalltalk on the basis of the physical hardware it runs on"
01:46:42 <ehird> By plain text, I mean the kind of thing that you find on unix/plan 9 systems.
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01:46:49 <ehird> Flat file, ad-hoc formats, pseudo-human-readable.
01:46:57 <ehird> I don't mean binary representations of objects, which is what I prefer.
01:47:01 <ehird> Yes, they're both bits, technically.
01:47:04 <ehird> But the paradigm is different.
01:47:23 <mycroftiv> but thats just like 'machine storage'! a rich object is always going to be what you get at the 'content layer' after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is! thats what plaintext is, its just like binary at the machine level
01:47:31 <mycroftiv> i think you are making a layer confusion in your thinking
01:47:36 <ehird> "after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is"
01:47:45 <ehird> With orthogonal persistence there is no format.
01:47:57 <ehird> What you clunk to disk is what you use.
01:48:00 <mycroftiv> so your physical chips liquify and dont use binary?
01:48:20 <ehird> .........................whut
01:48:34 <pikhq> ehird: There is one thing that makes me vomit about this: the data should be independent of the programs. I am not sure how you would pull that off.
01:48:46 <ehird> pikhq: Why on earth should it be?
01:48:49 <mycroftiv> look, you dont have a problem with having your rich objects stored in binary in the physical memory right?"
01:48:52 <ehird> Objects have methods ;-)
01:48:59 <pikhq> ehird: I kill you.
01:49:06 <ehird> pikhq: Smalltalk, bitch.
01:49:13 <pikhq> ehird: I kill you.
01:49:19 <augur> pikhq: what do you mean independent of the programs?
01:49:27 <ehird> augur: plz read ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
01:49:35 <mycroftiv> so if you are OK with binary storage of objects at the physical layer, and the microcode/firmware or whatever you call it translating your smalltalk into those operations
01:49:37 <ehird> mycroftiv: I really think you're pulling at straws here
01:49:38 <augur> explain what you mean by that.
01:49:56 <pikhq> augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file.
01:50:00 <mycroftiv> why isnt it ok for there to be a layer that works with data as plaintext, as an intermediate stage between binary and the rich objects?
01:50:02 <pikhq> (though not all programs will make sense of it)
01:50:10 <augur> you mean non-proprietary formats, essentially.
01:50:49 <pikhq> You fail at reading comprehension. Epicly.
01:50:52 <mycroftiv> ehird: can you network with these rich objects? if you send them via ethernet framing, does the fact that they become binary/plaintext during transmission across the network destroy them somehow?
01:50:59 <augur> "augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file."
01:51:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: That would work, sure… but it's also kind of a silly step and will just use more disk. Also, the fact is that in 9P, you address objects with paths — which is not how you address them in an object system (e.g. "self users at: 3" is not /users/3)
01:51:17 <ehird> So, Unix and 9P's model is not just "making objects plaintext before bunking them to disk".
01:51:29 <ehird> (That would work → plaintext intermediatry)
01:51:34 <augur> unless you mean "handled by a text editor", i take this to mean "handled by anything that plays music because they all play mp3s"
01:52:02 <pikhq> augur: Handled by anything that handles files in general.
01:52:09 <augur> ok. handled in what sense?
01:52:11 <mycroftiv> ehird: hm, in a very important sense I think 'making objects plaintext for convenience while reading/writing them' is absolutely the essence of unix design
01:52:23 <pikhq> cat foo.mp3 ;# that's handling it.
01:52:26 <pikhq> Not usefully, but it is.
01:52:30 <mycroftiv> and that in no sense is unix attempting to prevent you from creating higher level systematic abstractions that have nothing to do with plaintext
01:52:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: That's not a convenience, it's just pointless.
01:52:38 <ehird> In a decent object system.
01:52:51 <ehird> Not Unix's shambles of assorted binary blobs operating in low-level languages.
01:52:55 <augur> right, ok, but im pretty sure that thats essentially possible regardless. ignoring the fact that certain programs have certain expectations of file contents.
01:53:17 <ehird> mycroftiv: Anyway, "while reading/writing them"
01:53:22 <ehird> With orthogonal persistence, you don't see that.
01:53:26 <ehird> You modify the object, it's modified on disk.
01:53:30 <ehird> The OS does it, you never notice.
01:53:37 <ehird> There is no reading or writing, there is just "is".
01:57:01 <ehird> I mean "there is just 'is'" as in the objects are just there, except there implies them being in a place.
01:57:11 <ehird> So I just said is; they exist.
01:59:35 <mycroftiv> all im saying is, there is a real and messy world of wires and circuits and binary bits that has to be brought into compliance with the abstractions you create. I dont see how you can escape, at some layer, having to work with things in the semantics that the wires/spec imposes on you. thats all.
02:01:30 <mycroftiv> the unix plaintext abstaction was created to meet the practical needs of how you build a system where the user can interact with rich objects and the wires and magnetic bits can stay synchronized with that. it is certainly not perfect, and could be much improved - but i think unix plaintext handling exists at the 'dealing with hardware' layer more than the 'telling you what abstractions to use' layer.
02:04:41 <ehird> I disagree because I see code handling this supposedly low-level "abstraction" all the time.
02:05:03 <ehird> I really think you're underestimating the culture of making your own shitty ad-hoc plain text formats and putting them in your own ad-hoc locations.
02:05:09 <mycroftiv> i never said the work of creating the 'ladder of abstractions' and making systems be consistent was complete!
02:06:01 <mycroftiv> ehird: i think you are confusing me with a defender of traditional unix...i think you are making the mistake of confusing something that is a progressive step in the evolutionary process with something that is an obstacle
02:06:26 <ehird> I'm not sure Plan 9 can go further, but we'll see. My other beef with it is that it keeps the outdated notion of an "application"; a 70s-era exposure of kernel structurse.
02:06:31 <ehird> Fun talking, anyway. I've got to go sleep now. I know people on IRC generally don't do that.
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02:07:14 <augur> i think to understand ehird
02:07:20 <augur> think of it like this
02:07:30 <augur> objects exist in memory during runtime right?
02:07:56 <mycroftiv> sure - i think i understand his ideas about breaking down the traditional 'hardware based' abstractions, absolutely
02:08:33 <augur> ok. the stuff in memory during runtime is whatever "format" a running object has
02:09:10 <mycroftiv> hm, not completely sure if you are talking about the abstract type as defined by the language/compiler etc or the machine representation as transistor bits/logic, but sure
02:09:20 <augur> whatever is in ram
02:09:55 <mycroftiv> at one layer, it is logical strucutre - at another layer, its physical charge
02:10:05 <mycroftiv> they can be mapped onto each other precisely, of course
02:10:06 <augur> in a smalltalk like system, the act of saving a file, or anything actually, amounts to nothing more than copying the memory content to the harddrive.
02:10:19 <augur> it doesnt involve encoding it into a special format for "representing" the object
02:10:26 <augur> its just a raw binary dump to the harddrive.
02:10:41 <mycroftiv> you still have a ton of lower level firmware type stuff going on
02:10:51 <augur> but thats not part of the objects in question.
02:11:06 <mycroftiv> and neither is the unix plaintext representation of data part of the 'objects' as dealt with by application software
02:11:13 <mycroftiv> two different layers of the abstraction
02:11:38 <augur> right, except that the plaintext representations of data are /representations of data/
02:11:56 <mycroftiv> the low level firmware and os driver control of a hard drive are also representations of data
02:12:01 <augur> as opposed to the raw data itself, that would normally exist in memory when the computer is processing it
02:12:12 <augur> yes but different data.
02:12:40 <mycroftiv> a larger set of data, but the 'content data' is still a subset thereof
02:13:18 <mycroftiv> if you can talk about small talk and 'abstract away' from the os drivers for the hard drive and its firmware - you can talk about unix software and its semantics and extract away from the unix os handling of the data before sending it to the disk
02:14:01 <mycroftiv> if you can send data over a network without the fact that it was encapsulated via tcp/ip somehow 'contaminating it' at the application layer - you can do the same with an os's representation of data and its software
02:14:31 <mycroftiv> there is no way you can escape from the particularities of the hard work of handling your hardware and formats - you just build tools that let you work as a programmer and user at layers of abstraction beyond that
02:14:48 <mycroftiv> if smalltalk exists as smalltalk regardlesss of the hardware platform
02:15:25 <mycroftiv> then you can certainly create whatever kind of environment you want as a set of abstractions on top of any os that gives you the ability to create a working implementation
02:16:44 <mycroftiv> so thats why i keep saying i think this is a 'layer confusion' where you are expecting that a lower layer should conform to the semantics and syntax of a higher layer - where you cant actually do that, unless you make your chips out of ideas rather than transistors
02:18:02 <mycroftiv> its great if you can make your layers as transparent and consistent as possible, and we definitely can evolve much further in that direction
02:19:56 <mycroftiv> but the fact that we have to store our data fundamentally as electrical charges, and stuff it through networking protocols, and read it from disks using various hardware bus interface specifications - these are annoyances, but they are just the 'accidental material' of creating things, just as the marble is not the sculpture
02:23:25 <mycroftiv> that being said - i understand that *plastic* was created because marble is hard to work with, and having something easier to shape is valuable - and ehird is talking about increasing the *plasticity* of data and how we work with it
02:23:51 <mycroftiv> which i 100% agree with and support
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10:32:48 <fizzie> Heh, I had completely forgotten about that thing.
11:07:18 <fizzie> Soon your packages be explodin'.
11:08:37 <Gracenotes> the 2 day forecast was not so unrealistic
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11:46:44 <zzo38> Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples
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11:48:12 <zzo38> I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)?
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11:54:42 <zzo38> O, what's this mistake
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12:34:07 * Sgeo has corpses in his kitchen
12:36:19 <zzo38> What doesn't kill you, makes you hard of hearing.
12:37:22 <zzo38> Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples
12:37:29 <zzo38> I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)?
12:38:49 <zzo38> What people would put all the blood in a bowl and then throw all of the cigarettes in the same bowl?
12:47:30 <zzo38> That was in Akagi manga book.
12:47:34 <Sgeo> I had blood on my hands that may or may not have been mine (was probably mine)
12:49:44 <Sgeo> (I killed a mosquito by accident. It had just bitten me)
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12:50:36 <zzo38> I have heard that only female mosquitoes bite you.
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12:53:37 <zzo38> Why is all QUIT and JOIN a lot in a past few minutes?
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13:24:06 <Sgeo> WHY IS FIREFOX SO SLOW ON THIS PENTIUM III?
13:26:40 <Gracenotes> Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous lagging, or to take arms against a sea of graphics cards, and by opposing make them effing work?
13:27:04 * ehird gives Gracenotes $15bux
13:31:43 * Sgeo has a nvidia card. It sucks
13:35:56 <Sgeo> ehird, do you know of a site like imgur, but for audio?
13:36:24 <Sgeo> ty, as soon as Firefox regains sanity
13:36:43 <Gracenotes> wikimedia commons. if you freely license it. and prove its encyclopedic worth.
13:36:50 * Sgeo doesn't want reddit hitting diagonalfish
13:36:58 <Sgeo> Gracenotes, there is no encyclopedic worth
13:37:21 <Gracenotes> you must thrust encyclopedic worth into it
13:37:55 <ehird> Sgeo: to think that reddit will hit anything you submit is statistically nonsensical
13:38:13 <ehird> Sgeo: anyway, filebin will cause a download.
13:38:21 <ehird> tindeck if you want a player; must be freely licensed.
13:39:38 <Sgeo> Somehow, I doubt that people will want to redistribute this
13:40:28 <ehird> Sgeo: Reddit will absolutely not hit something they have to save and open.
13:40:42 <ehird> In conclusion, self-defeating prophecy.\
13:41:18 <Slereah_> I think you mean self-fulfilling.
13:42:08 * Sgeo reconsiders doing anything with this at this point
13:42:09 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav
13:42:54 <Sgeo> Is /r/self an appropriate place to ask for information like what songs the unknown songs are?
13:42:57 <Sgeo> Things like that?
13:43:25 <ehird> Wow my ears just cringed listening to that. I didn't know that was possible.
13:47:03 <Sgeo> For a sec, ehird sounded a bit like Randall Munroe
13:47:17 <ehird> "you bet bitches" is totally what xkcd would say.
13:47:23 <ehird> <xkcd> you bet bitches
13:49:05 <Sgeo> ehird, how is that sort of thing inappropriate for /r/self ?
13:49:23 <ehird> Does it work as a self post? No.
13:49:48 <Sgeo> Well, then I'll ask about a game
13:50:37 <ehird> Eh? Are you just trying to ask… something? :P
13:51:02 <ehird> Poor, lonely Sgeo.
13:51:13 <Sgeo> Trying to find out more information about a game I found out about in 2001 or earlier
13:51:37 <Sgeo> Don't know if/when it died, don't know if what I remember about it is a mere hallucination, or anything
13:52:08 * Sgeo replies to a comment with an obscure reference
13:53:15 <ehird> Sgeo: You seem to have nostalgia but no aoknalgia. :P
13:54:02 * Sgeo didn't get that that was a pun until google failed to return anything
13:54:57 <ehird> Sgeo: I'm surprised you get the pun even afterwards.
13:55:09 <ehird> Actually it's not really a pun.
13:55:15 <Sgeo> I barely get it
13:55:42 <Sgeo> I guess I don't get it
13:55:56 <ehird> nostalgia = nostos + algos; aoknalgia = aoknos + algos; aoknos is one of the seventy billion words that an English → Ancient Greek dictionary gave me for "present".
13:57:54 <ehird> Sgeo: Which was a long-winded way of saying "Wow, you really like dead games".
13:57:57 <ehird> Gracenotes: Quite so.
13:58:46 <Gracenotes> so, I was tuning into my interblogotube the other day
13:58:50 <Sgeo> You know, it's funny, I missed Cybertown, but when I was able to visit regularly again, I stopped missing it quite so much
13:59:06 <Sgeo> I no longer feel desparate to see the 3d
13:59:12 <Sgeo> I do miss the community though
13:59:32 <ehird> Sgeo: So you're a necrophiliac, essentially.
14:00:11 <ehird> Also, you're really obsessed with VR games.
14:00:38 <Gracenotes> I am obsessed with tickle-torturing ehird!
14:01:41 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/972hb/any_information_about_this_old_probably_now_dead/
14:02:04 <ehird> Sgeo: Hahaha those three points are hilariously vague
14:02:20 <Sgeo> So is my memory
14:02:41 <ehird> Any information about this thing?
14:02:45 <ehird> I remember that it was a thing
14:02:49 <ehird> and I think you could do things
14:02:54 <ehird> oh, and the things had things.
14:02:58 * Sgeo adds more details
14:04:21 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/anonymity/ durp durp
14:06:58 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I think I remember where I found that gamer
14:07:12 <Gracenotes> http://www.reddit.com/r/anonymity+null/
14:07:48 <ehird> As I said in the post, :P
14:08:14 <Sgeo> I'd be more encouraged about looking there if there was evidence that it contained information about a site that I found around the same time as this mysterious game
14:08:39 <Sgeo> What does +null do, exactly?
14:08:57 <Sgeo> And how did ehird make a superficially anonymous reddit in the first place?
14:09:15 <ehird> you can do /r/a+b+c/
14:09:20 <ehird> presumably null is an empty subreddit
14:09:29 <Sgeo> ...that's awesome
14:09:30 <ehird> and this of course disables custom css
14:09:37 <ehird> since the main page is e.g. /r/blah+blah+blah/ essentially
14:10:16 <Sgeo> Will I get an orange envelop if someone replies to my post?
14:10:22 <Sgeo> Or do I have to check it manually?
14:11:27 <ehird> Sgeo: By the way, delete it, it belongs in AskReddit.
14:11:45 <ehird> i love poking tft screens
14:11:49 <Sgeo> I remember seeing something saying that AskReddit is for insightful questions
14:12:04 <ehird> if it isn't insightful don't ask? :P
14:17:29 <ehird> E/R=sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+phi
14:18:23 * Sgeo runs, screaming, from the trig
14:20:35 <ehird> Wolfram Alpha sez:
14:20:38 <ehird> <me> solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R
14:20:45 <ehird> <W|A> Z = 1/2 (2 R sqrt(A^2 B^2+1) sin(R)+sqrt(5) R+R)
14:24:27 <Sgeo> ..I assume that what you posted was a rendering of usage of Wolfram Alpha as though it were an IRC conversation, as opposed to Wolfram Alpha being available in some IRC channel?
14:25:14 <ehird> `wolfram solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R
14:25:27 <ehird> !wolfram solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R
14:25:28 <HackEgo> solve Z sin R cos arctan A B \ \ 1 sqrt 5 2 \ \ R \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ solve \ \ Z \ \ sin R cos tan 1 A B \ \ 1 2 \ \ 1 \ \ 5 \ \ R \ \ Result: \ \ Z \ \ 1 2 \ \ 2R \ \ A2 B2 \ \ 1 sin R \ \ 5 R \ \ R \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 3, 2009 from Champaign, IL. ©
14:25:49 <ehird> GregorR: You should really make it use the plain text forms.
14:25:52 <Slereah_> It doesn't say what variable to solve
14:25:57 <ehird> Slereah_: It guesses
14:26:10 <ehird> But it jsut ended up reformulating what I gave it :P
14:27:47 <fizzie> Uh... a message-box popped up from w|a: "You are about to log in to the site "www37.wolframalpha.com" with the username "xss", but the website does not require authentication. This may be an attempt to trick you. Is "www37.wolframalpha.com" the site you want to visit?"
14:28:08 <fizzie> Anyway, you can tell w|a that "solve [equation] for [var]".
14:28:08 <ehird> fizzie: Going to wolframalpha.com, I assume
14:28:16 <ehird> not Windows Live Authentication or something
14:28:48 <ehird> Telling it to solve for Z changes nothing, anyway.
14:29:27 <fizzie> Sure, since it was already solving for Z. And it doesn't seem to be able to say anything sensible for R.
14:30:43 <fizzie> If you simplify by removing that last "*R" you get a rather ugly solution when saying "solve for R".
14:31:01 <ehird> What solution is it? Me lazy.
14:31:20 <fizzie> R = -sin^(-1)((2 Z sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(5) sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(A^2 B^2+1))/(2 (A^2 B^2+1)))+2 pi n+pi and A^2 B^2+1!=0 and n element Z, R = sin^(-1)((2 Z sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(5) sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(A^2 B^2+1))/(2 (A^2 B^2+1)))+2 pi n and A^2 B^2+1!=0 and n element Z, B = +-i/A and Z = 1/2 (1+sqrt(5)) and A!=0
14:31:29 <fizzie> It really doesn't look as pretty in the plaintext form.
14:31:38 <ehird> heyy it got pi involved
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14:46:04 <fizzie> Well, pi's lurking everywhere; "integrate e^(-x^2) from -infinity to infinity".
14:47:16 <Slereah_> Well, it's in a bucnh of integrals
14:47:17 <ehird> Truly boggles the mind :P
14:49:58 <ehird> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
14:51:40 <Slereah_> And then you find the loser numbers
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15:09:19 <ehird> In the fairly likely event of the software crashing, a wire coming loose, a component failing, or the batteries running low, the wheels will stop and the entire kinetic energy of the system will be used to accelerate my head toward the ground.
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15:51:52 <Sgeo> http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/01/alt-shift-print-screen-scary-keyboard.html absentmindedly tried this on Ubuntu >.>
15:57:20 <ehird> God I hate stupid blogs with stupid posts.
16:11:34 <ehird> CUPERTINO, California—August 3, 2009—Apple® today announced that Dr. Eric Schmidt, chief executive officer of Google, is resigning from Apple’s Board of Directors, a position he has held since August 2006.
16:12:42 <pikhq> ehird: Eric Schmidt cited a conflict of interest.
16:12:58 <ehird> Understandable, though if they really think Chrome OS is a competitor to OS X…
16:13:02 <ehird> (then they're on crack)
16:13:10 <ehird> Android, though, yeah.
16:13:35 <pikhq> Chrome OS is more of a competitor to Apple TV than OS X.
16:13:39 <pikhq> (and even that's a stretch)
16:14:04 <ehird> Err, Chrome OS is for browsin' the web and chattin' and documentin'.
16:14:09 <ehird> Apple TV is for playing music and movies.
16:14:14 <ehird> I'm not sure how that works.
16:14:42 <pikhq> They're both OSes for 'appliances', not full-fledged computers.
16:14:48 <pikhq> Bit of a stretch still.
16:14:57 <pikhq> But at least in the same ballpark.
16:15:05 <ehird> Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooort offfffffffffffffffffffffff.
16:15:31 <ehird> [[Nice attempt at a cover up by Apple “Unfortunately, as Google enters more of Apple’s core businesses, with Android and now Chrome OS, Eric’s effectiveness as an Apple Board member will be significantly diminished..." But we know its about Apple rejecting Google's apps]]
16:15:38 <ehird> Reddit sure is full of conspiracy theories.
16:16:10 <ehird> (Apple rejected Google Voice stuff from the iPhone and were dicks and told Google to refund and stuff)
16:17:29 <ehird> [[I know everyone on reddit thinks Apple and Google are like Jesus and Buddha]]
16:17:30 <ehird> Also, full of strawmen set up just so they can get popular by being contradicted.
16:17:39 <ehird> Since every second comment on reddit is "Apple sux lol".
16:18:13 <ehird> Neat, someone denying the Macintosh was influential.
16:18:18 <ehird> GUYS I DON'T EVEN LIKE APPLE ANY MORE
16:18:20 <ehird> BUT YOU'RE STILL STUPID.
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16:18:51 <pikhq> ... The Mac, not influential?
16:19:22 <ehird> pikhq: Their argument is that they were dormant in the 90s.
16:19:29 <ehird> That's why they weren't influential in the 70s/80s.
16:19:29 <pikhq> Even if you point at Xerox and say they did it all first, the Mac was at least influential for *bringing that in a normal PC*...
16:19:31 <ehird> It's so OBVIOUS now!
16:19:32 <pikhq> ehird: Face. Palm.
16:20:11 <ehird> soo close to abandoning reddit.
16:23:09 <Sgeo> lol http://www.dibert.com/
16:23:31 <ais523> is that link typoed, or deliberate, btw?
16:24:01 <Sgeo> Well, when I first typed it into the browser, that was a typo
16:24:07 <Sgeo> But pasting it in here was deliberate
16:25:20 <Sgeo> The Diberts enjoy Dilbert, apparenty
16:27:46 <ais523> I'm reading about how someone tried to plant a fake ATM in the middle of a computer security convention
16:28:21 <pikhq> ais523: Defcon. Freaking *Defcon*.
16:28:41 <pikhq> Special form of stupidity there.
16:31:11 <ehird> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_did_a_Big_Mac_cost_today
16:31:24 <ais523> err, what a strangely worded question
16:32:04 <ais523> ooh, looks like the doors crashed again yesterday
16:32:07 <ais523> but I wasn't there to see it
16:32:28 * Sgeo would probably fall for it >.>
16:32:42 <Sgeo> Well, is there an easy way to tell if an ATM is fake?
16:33:03 <Sgeo> Oh, and did the details of the iPhone issue come out?
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16:39:39 <ais523> Sgeo: well, if an ATM suddenly appears in a location there wasn't one a while back, and the owners of the place don't remember installing it, it probably isn't real
16:39:56 <ais523> it's fake fronts on existing ATMs that are the real problem
16:40:06 <ais523> which is rather different from fake ATMs
16:40:46 <ehird> you can just look, though
16:43:06 <ais523> can you tell a real ATM front from a fake one by sight?
16:44:13 <ehird> erm, the atm covers, yeah?
16:46:04 <ais523> I've seen a fake one on the TV, they're pretty realistic
16:46:22 <ais523> and almost certainly trademark infringement, at that
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16:47:53 <ehird> oh, trademark infringement, that's so what they worry about
16:48:03 <ehird> have you ever conducted an
16:48:34 <ehird> & its contents thereof
16:48:39 <oklopol> but most of them are really small, you can't see them
16:48:59 <ehird> so, maybe you busted it up some time yesterday or today? this is possible?
16:49:19 <ehird> that would make good sense
16:49:22 <ehird> i would understand that
16:50:09 <oklopol> busted it up? i'm not sure i'm familiar with that outsorted phrase
16:50:34 <ehird> oklopol: it's when you blam it but it's sort of like a nuclear bomb
16:50:38 <oklopol> also this theme is awesome
16:50:47 <oklopol> right, that's a lot i guess.
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16:50:56 <oklopol> i just scored me some free pills
16:50:57 <ehird> is this understand-worthy
16:51:01 <ehird> are the pills pills of delight
16:51:02 <oklopol> i just scored me some free pills
16:51:12 <ehird> or freight, freight train, which is it oklopol
16:51:58 <oklopol> you wait your turn, IE is crashing again
16:52:54 <ehird> so are these pills made of magic//or are their rhymes tragic
16:52:54 <oklopol> hmph, it's gone i guess, anyway they are these things that make like a sizzling sound and then you drink it.
16:53:46 <ehird> oklopol: /nick oklopill
16:53:53 <oklopol> should probably sleep a bit
16:54:01 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklopil.
16:54:51 <ehird> it's easy to get free pills in the uk, it's called a prescription ← Joke humour
16:56:36 <oklopil> yeah that was pretty funny
16:57:48 <oklopil> especially the IE theme is just awesome
16:58:05 <oklopil> every page has a fully perfect look now
16:58:15 <oklopil> except some pics look kinda out of place
16:58:31 <oklopil> also you can't see some stuff
16:58:51 <oklopil> but you can't see everything with the windows theme either, for instance vlc's buttons
16:59:20 <ehird> i don't think seeing is like, good
16:59:38 <oklopil> i agree so completely fully.
17:00:05 <oklopil> nothing important has been invisible sofar
17:01:07 <ehird> it turns out that shoes have their own mathematics
17:01:26 <oklopil> are you talking about knot theory
17:01:45 <oklopil> did you know the multiplication of primitive knots is commutative?
17:02:04 <ais523> electricity? isn't that invisible?
17:02:15 <ais523> wait, that's what I get for answering a comment without reading context
17:02:18 <oklopil> well yes, i mean more invisible.
17:02:28 <oklopil> electricity was invisible before
17:03:12 <oklopil> with the obvious > for booleans
17:03:16 <ehird> what was the context there :D
17:03:49 <ehird> but air isn't very important
17:04:08 <ehird> wow wouldn't it be cool if electricity was visible
17:04:59 <oklopil> like, things with current would turn to electred
17:05:11 <ais523> Pthing: it's not the electricity visible there, it's the air plasma that's conducting it
17:05:15 <ehird> it'd be like a tesla coil all the time basically
17:05:21 <ehird> open up your PC and your mobo glows
17:05:22 <ais523> likewise with lightning
17:05:30 <Pthing> well abloobloo, if we're being like that
17:05:35 <Pthing> then all we can see is electricity
17:05:46 <ehird> it would persuade me
17:05:50 <ehird> to get a computer case with a side window
17:05:53 <ehird> despite HATING THAT SHIT
17:05:59 <ehird> if i could see my motherboard glow and shit.
17:06:05 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out).
17:08:15 <ehird> Pthing: if we want to be PEDANTIC
17:08:22 <ehird> then we can just say that everything is quantum fluctuations of energy
17:08:43 <Pthing> sure, God is the creator of all things, seen and unseen
17:08:51 <Pthing> but only the seen parts have to do with electricity
17:09:37 <oklopil> well i hear reals were created by man, actually
17:09:38 <Pthing> also now i think of it, if you put current through something, it'll heat up due to resistance, so become a slightly different colour, if only in the infra-red
17:09:58 <Pthing> so you can get your dream if you wear infra-red vision things
17:11:15 <ehird> Pthing: when did i say god
17:11:50 <ais523> Pthing: very slightly different, typical computers use milliamps or microamps of current
17:11:56 <ais523> and try to avoid losing it as heat as much as possible
17:11:59 <Pthing> sure, but it's still there
17:12:29 <Pthing> tiny shift in the emission peak
17:14:41 <ais523> but the odds of being able to get vision sensitive enough to see it would be rather low
17:15:09 <ehird> Are you guys thinkin' what I'm thinking?
17:15:22 <ehird> <#esoteric> Yeah, but how will we get $1bn in funding?
17:16:20 <Pthing> it will save children from accidentally electrocuting themselves
17:16:24 <ehird> We also need a time machine to modify our genetics.
17:16:30 <ehird> Pthing: O RLY? "Ooh, shiny…"
17:16:49 <Pthing> we make it so that in the device, electricity is presented in an ugly colour
17:17:07 <ais523> actually, it shouldn't be a colour at all
17:17:10 <ehird> Pthing: yeah but kids love shit like that
17:17:18 <ais523> some people can see more colours than colourblind people can
17:17:21 <ehird> they love getting mucky
17:17:28 <Pthing> okay we'll need more funding to work out what colours kids don't like to touch
17:17:40 <ais523> that's not the point, the point is that it won't be a colour at all
17:17:46 <ehird> i don't think i had an urge to touch any lamps
17:17:46 <ais523> it'll be, just a direct brain input
17:17:55 <ais523> just like unless you're synaesthetic, smells don't have a colour
17:17:55 <ehird> so something that looks like an expose dlamp
17:18:12 <ehird> I wish I was synaesthetic
17:18:31 <ehird> can't think of any disadvantages either
17:23:20 <ehird> [[This kind of synesthesia is usually easily achieved by means of psychedelic drugs, such as LSD, psilocybin or Cannabinoids.]]
17:24:58 <ais523> don't even think about it
17:25:12 <ais523> even if synaesthesia has no disadvantages, the method of obtaining it probably does
17:25:17 <ehird> I just find it amusing when people put things like that in Wikipedia.
17:25:34 <ehird> My brain adds "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge." at the end.
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17:47:36 <ais523> [17:38] <-- ehird has left this server.
17:47:38 <ais523> [17:39] --> ehird has joined this channel (n=ehird@91.105.72.107).
17:47:45 <ehird> I didn't miss those
17:48:06 <fizzie> But did you, in fact, go <-- that way, or --> this.
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17:56:39 -!- nooga has joined.
17:57:14 <nooga> i tried to remove all kinds of comments and macros from C/C++ code using regexp
17:57:31 <nooga> and i think it could be done more efficiently without using regexp
18:00:14 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:00:36 <nooga> the task seems easy
18:00:59 <nooga> but it's not as easy as you'd expect
18:04:14 <ais523> the issue is people doing things like " /* this is not a comment because it's in a string literal */ "
18:04:34 <ehird> i've never put /* or */ inside a string, like, ever
18:04:41 <ais523> ehird: I have, in C-INTERCAL
18:04:45 <ais523> it generates C code as output
18:04:55 <ais523> that involves putting all sorts of C-like snippets in string literals, including comments
18:05:01 <ehird> i may have i guess.
18:05:12 <ehird> but "all kinds of"
18:05:14 <ehird> i guess things like
18:05:21 <pikhq> nooga, so, you basically need to parse C. :P
18:05:22 <ehird> which are unlikely to appear in generated code
18:05:43 <ais523> ehird: I thought javadoc comments /only/ appeared in generated code
18:05:46 <ais523> all the code generators add them
18:05:59 <ehird> Language.C doesn't use Parsec, I think.
18:06:07 <pikhq> Not Parsec. Thinko.
18:06:07 <ehird> the template is added by IDEs
18:06:14 <ehird> javadocs are used in human-written code
18:06:16 <ehird> not generated code
18:06:38 <pikhq> ehird: He may be making a snide claim that Java programmers are just code generators.
18:06:41 <ehird> ais523: i think you should stop disputing it because every java project uses javadocs
18:06:43 <ais523> most people are too lazy to do that sort of thing
18:06:50 <ehird> pikhq: I think he's just never read any java code
18:06:53 <ais523> ehird: ok, I'm sorry, I'm just used to /really bad/ Java
18:07:08 <ehird> ais523: All Apache Java projects and all Eclipse Java projects are totally full of javadocs.
18:07:17 <ehird> As well as a whole bunch of independent libraries; pretty much all of them.
18:07:20 <ehird> And the standard libraries.
18:07:32 <pikhq> Javadoc is used extensively in Java.
18:07:34 <ais523> ehird: I'm used to people requiring that the recipient of their Java code install a certain IDE in order to run it
18:07:35 <ehird> Javadoc is kinda sucky, but it's very common.
18:07:44 <pikhq> It's about as commonly used as *objects* in Java. :P
18:07:45 <ais523> that's the sort of really bad Java I mean
18:07:52 <ehird> ais523: that's usually sound advice in general, but globally
18:07:58 <ehird> as in, using Java without an IDE is suicide
18:08:04 <ais523> ehird: in order to compile, maybe
18:08:14 <oklopil> i've never tried to program java with an ide
18:08:17 <ehird> I mainly meant in order to code or read
18:08:26 <pikhq> Actually, to just build Java without an IDE should be easy.
18:08:26 <ehird> oklopil: yes but trazer doesn't really count.
18:08:30 <nooga> i won't need to parse C
18:08:31 <ais523> I got really annoyed at them and went and made a simple GUI wrapper around their program, then put it all in a runnable .jar
18:08:37 <oklopil> works especially great without one, because you don't have to import explicitly
18:08:37 <pikhq> Don't almost all Java IDEs use Ant?
18:08:38 <ais523> and said "this is how you should be distributing your program"
18:08:40 <oklopil> ehird: i haven't made trazer
18:08:46 <oklopil> but i have made about a hundred java progs
18:08:46 <ehird> oklopil: you patched!
18:08:53 <oklopil> well i've added a few modules
18:08:55 <ehird> = one file dealies
18:09:04 <ehird> ais523: not on OS X!
18:09:07 <oklopil> no with java i usually use multiple files
18:09:20 <oklopil> because it's nice to do with java
18:09:22 <pikhq> I'd say that I don't use an IDE at all... But Emacs almost certainly counts as an IDE.
18:09:26 <ehird> oklopil: Oh shut up :P
18:09:35 <ehird> pikhq: you just have an inferior OS on top of your OS because your OS sucks
18:10:14 <pikhq> (the Haskell runtime system could pretty much count as an OS kernel. :P)
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18:10:47 * pikhq exaggerates to make ehird's eyes pop out
18:11:13 <ehird> pikhq: Consider them pooped.
18:11:22 <fizzie> Heh, that's a funny User-Agent string: "Mozilla/4.1 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Symbian OS; N-Gage;452) Opera 6.20 [en]". It's a Mozilla derivative... except it's MSIE instead... except it's Opera instead.
18:11:46 <ais523> every browser in existence is a mozilla derivative
18:11:54 <ais523> otherwise, how would websites know it supported frames?
18:11:55 <pikhq> I wish that we could revise user agents to make sense.
18:12:08 <ehird> pikhq: I wish we could eliminate user agents
18:12:14 <ehird> modularise them, rather
18:12:19 <fizzie> I wish we could eliminate users with agents.
18:12:31 <ehird> I like the general idea, because e.g. software sites can point you to the version for your OS and the like
18:12:31 <fizzie> Maybe with a comma there.
18:12:47 <pikhq> They get abused so much.
18:13:16 <oklopil> my abs almost never get used
18:13:39 <pikhq> People who think "this site only works on IE 6.0" is a good idea.
18:14:12 <ehird> oklopil: maybe you should hang around negative people more often
18:14:15 <oklopil> i thought it was just "this site works on anything but ie"
18:14:28 <fizzie> Opera (9.24 winxp, 9.25 winxp, 6.05 win98) doesn't seem to advertise itself as a Mozilla derivative, let alone IE 5. I think that Symbian-Opera-6 is a bit "special".
18:14:45 <ehird> opera is so bloated it has a whole list of browsers you can tell it to impersonate
18:15:07 <oklopil> ehird: some streaming services do that, and i've seen at least a few other pages that do it
18:15:09 <fizzie> Yes, there's that, but I don't think it advertises itself as Opera at all when impersonating really. Not that I've tested.
18:15:16 <ehird> there are plenty ie only sites
18:15:20 <ehird> they just all suck
18:15:51 <fizzie> There are also plenty IE-only-sites which use that ActiveX stuff somehow.
18:16:07 <oklopil> right, i'm talking about useful pages
18:16:08 <fizzie> Well, I guess the suck category already covered that.
18:16:59 <oklopil> but sounds like something nice and useful that everybody hate
18:17:34 <ehird> oklopil: active-x lets you run arbitrary native code in the browser.
18:17:44 <fizzie> It's a bit like Java applets, except only for Windows and IE and without the attempt at security.
18:17:44 <ehird> buggily and slowly, usually.
18:17:48 <ehird> oklopil: pretty much yes
18:17:50 <oklopil> well that's just plain awesome :DD
18:17:54 <ehird> you have to OK it of course
18:18:16 <oklopil> right, naturally people would read the executable disassembly before running
18:20:07 <fizzie> Well, one Finnish bank (Sampo) made their net-bank's "security solution" to require Java with some native JNI blobs recently, when their computer systems were "streamlined" to conform with Danske Bank, who bought Sampo.
18:20:57 * ehird attempts to click his mouse with only pressure on the top bit
18:21:15 <ehird> (note: this is impossible)
18:21:26 <fizzie> That stuff was the crazitude; they gave a 100-eur discount for people who had to buy a new computer to access their web-bank.
18:21:56 <pikhq> Java applets using JNI...
18:22:04 <pikhq> YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.
18:22:34 <fizzie> http://kks.cabal.fi/SampoApplet has a bit of decompilation; it does quite a lot of user-hardware-sniffing, probably to provide some sort of per-machine ID.
18:23:19 <fizzie> And http://hsivonen.iki.fi/sampo-epic-multifail/ has the full story.
18:23:58 <fizzie> It was certainly kind of them to provide a spectacle.
18:25:08 <pikhq> And what a spectacle.
18:25:42 <fizzie> Especially that point where their pages just displayed the short text "404 multifail", you can't get much better even with planning, let alone by accident.
18:25:55 <ais523> aren't all South Korean banks required to use ActiveX for security?
18:26:14 <ais523> I'm surprised any exist at all, given the contradiction there
18:26:35 <fizzie> There was at least one Chinese bank requiring ActiveX.
18:32:33 <ehird> 18:21] fizzie: That stuff was the crazitude; they gave a 100-eur discount for people who had to buy a new computer to access their web-bank.
18:33:15 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit).
18:33:18 <fizzie> Of course it was only when you bought from their partner-computer-salesplace or some-such.
18:33:22 <pikhq> Is security so damned hard?
18:33:32 <ais523> security is very easy to get wrong
18:33:39 <ais523> sufficiently so, that it's unknown how easy it is to get right
18:34:20 <ehird> “Se ei ole aukko, kunnes me pystymme itse varmistamaan että se on aukko.” (“It is not a hole until we are able to verify ourselves that it is a hole.”) — Hannu Vuola, head of communications at Sampo Pankki in a later revised news item in Helsingin Sanomat on the topic of a gaping XSS hole in Sampo’s net bank
18:34:20 <ehird> http://kottke.org/04/07/my-new-policy
18:34:24 <ehird> We have a policy that it is not a hole.
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18:43:38 <ehird> there needs to be an api on the internet that lets you get every page.
18:44:40 <oklopil> i don't seem to understand sentences today.
18:44:58 <pikhq> What, like... HTTP?
18:45:28 <Asztal> maybe more like gopher
18:46:09 <Sgeo> Is there anything wrong with using openid-provider.appspot.com for my OpenID needs?
18:46:28 <ehird> Sgeo: yes, it only supports openid 1
18:46:33 <ehird> and is unmaintained
18:46:54 <ehird> either go with myopenid.com, which is owned by a big openid player
18:46:57 <ehird> or host your own with phpmyid
18:47:41 * Sgeo used to use um,
18:47:52 <Sgeo> Something that died
18:48:10 <ehird> See? Don't do that.
18:48:30 <ehird> Also, Google provides OpenIDs officially now, although crippeldly.
18:48:38 <ehird> pikhq: not http, EVERY page
18:48:43 <Asztal> myopenid.com makes SSL client certificates for you :)
18:49:40 <ehird> Sgeo: remember to use a domain you control
18:49:50 <ehird> and just set the openid in a yadis file w/ http header, or in the html
18:49:54 <ehird> even if you use another provider
18:49:58 <ehird> if your provider dies
18:50:00 <ehird> you can just switch over
18:50:03 <ehird> and use the same id
18:50:21 <Sgeo> Hm, good point
18:50:55 <Sgeo> Not so easy for, say, Joe the Plumber, though
18:51:03 <ehird> are you joe the plumber?
18:51:11 <ehird> protip: NOBODY'S JOE THE PLUMBER
18:51:39 <ehird> there are people who only have like 3 accounts; they don't need openid. there are people who have a bunch of accounts but can't set up their own domain; they will use one of the providers directly.
18:51:43 <ehird> then there's everyone else.
18:51:57 <ehird> at the moment, the second group barely uses openid
18:52:05 <Asztal> There's probably wordpress plugins and whatever for it to make it easier, anyway
18:52:38 <ehird> right someone who has a wordpress blog they can put plugins on falls in the third category
18:55:11 <ehird> if there's bicycles and unicycles and tricycles
18:55:35 <ehird> why isn't there a nilcycle
18:56:05 * Sgeo just assumed that you were going to say quadricycle for some reason
18:56:12 <ehird> too fast how oklopil xD
18:56:20 <oklopil> well, it only made sense as a correct guess of what you'd say.
18:56:22 <ehird> a stick can't get you places
18:56:41 <ehird> all the others can
18:56:41 <fizzie> Tie a carrot to the stick and it can get you to places.
18:56:56 <ehird> you have to have pedals
18:56:58 <ehird> all of them have pedals
18:57:02 <ehird> so i'm thinking that these pedals, like
18:57:05 <ehird> lift it off the air a bit
18:57:13 <ehird> so it's basically a pogo stick except you pedal
18:57:39 <ehird> the challenge is not lunging forwards and hitting your head on the ground
18:57:45 <oklopil> you can turn with a pogo stick
18:58:17 <ehird> not with handlebars
18:58:53 <oklopil> well you turn with it the same way you do with a unicycle, so i'd count it
18:59:03 <oklopil> but yeah pedals should probably exist.
18:59:20 <oklopil> also unicycles don't usually have hb's
18:59:42 <ehird> there should be a unicycle that's really a bicycle with just one wheel
19:00:45 <oklopil> Sgeo just assumed that you were going to say quadricycle for some reason <<< you just don't know ehird
19:01:03 <ehird> anyway for a nilcycle you just take a bike-unicycle and remove the wheel, then hook the pedals up to like... a fan that spins really fast to lift you up a little bit
19:01:16 <ehird> the handlebars move around the thing holding the fan
19:01:16 * Sgeo isn't paying full attention to the chat
19:01:19 <Sgeo> Mafia's addicting
19:01:57 <ehird> `addquote <Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
19:01:59 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addictin
19:02:05 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:02:20 <ehird> `addquote <Sgeo> Mafia's addicting
19:02:22 <HackEgo> 60|<Sgeo> Mafia's addicting
19:02:25 <Sgeo> ...arbitrary code?
19:03:55 <ehird> <Sgeo> LOL RM -RF / GREGOR MUST BE STOOPID
19:04:37 <HackEgo> bin \ paste \ quotes \ tmpdir.25063
19:04:58 <HackEgo> bin \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.25131
19:05:18 <Sgeo> `cat /etc/passwd\
19:05:21 <Sgeo> `cat /etc/passwd
19:05:34 <Sgeo> ..what constitutes output?
19:05:34 <HackEgo> addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
19:05:37 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
19:05:55 <Sgeo> `ls ~/bin/creatures
19:05:57 <ehird> `url bin/creatures
19:05:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/creatures
19:06:09 <ehird> `creatures User:Sgeo
19:06:11 <HackEgo> \ I'm the one who created this project. Known as Sgeo almost everywhere I'm known, one place as Oegs, and one place as Sgeo2.
19:06:32 <Sgeo> What happens if there's too much output?
19:06:37 <Sgeo> `creatures Norn
19:06:39 <HackEgo> \ Norns (Cyberlifogenis cutis) are a [9]species of [10]creature, created by the [11]Shee to entertain them and serve [12]tea and [13]biscuits. They were [14]genetically engineered on the disc-shaped planet [15]Albia. Many were abandoned there as the [16]Shee took off in their spaceship, the [17]Ark (although they took a few of
19:06:47 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
19:06:59 <ehird> `run creatures Norn | paste
19:07:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13876
19:07:28 <Sgeo> The one place I'm known as Oegs is now dead
19:07:48 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
19:07:52 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10253 \ 10254 \ 10256 \ 10258 \ 10259 \ 10265 \ 10319 \ 10322 \ 10326 \ 10327 \ 10329 \ 104 \ 105 \ 10562 \ 10563 \ 11057 \ 11069 \ 11074 \ 11457 \ 1149 \ 11501 \ 11753 \ 11772 \ 11776 \ 12046 \ 1291 \ 13928 \ 13946 \ 13948 \ 1418 \ 1421 \ 14617 \ 14636 \ 14640 \ 1486 \ 15310 \ 15316 \ 15317 \ 15318 \ 15324 \ 15325 \ 15543
19:07:58 <ehird> `run ls /proc | paste
19:07:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25089
19:08:13 <ehird> `run url <(ls /proc)
19:08:14 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//dev/fd/63
19:10:19 <ais523> I actually clicked on that last link, just because I was curious as to what codu's reaction would be
19:10:29 <ais523> <codu.org> error: dev/fd/63@b7f832f99b43: not found in manifest
19:10:37 <ehird> yeah, it's just looking it up in the hg repository
19:23:37 * ehird hatches an evil plan
19:24:35 <ais523> commit the hg repo into itself?
19:25:20 <ehird> found a little software ditty that makes a virtual screen on your network and lets you connect via vnc
19:25:30 <ehird> = iphone + old mac can be extra screenies
19:27:35 <ehird> admittedly not ones of any great size, but.
19:30:13 -!- ehird has quit.
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19:32:54 <augur> ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird MONAD NOMAD
19:33:07 <ehird> Ohh, it's a nomad.
19:33:11 <ehird> Where'd the topic go?
19:33:22 <augur> I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
19:35:39 <ehird> It's not showing up here.
19:35:52 <augur> so i got an apartment! :D
19:36:54 <ehird> hmm screenrecycler doesn't appear to let you change the res
19:37:04 -!- ehird has left (?).
19:37:08 -!- ehird has joined.
19:38:41 <ehird> ok the vnc works... slowly
19:40:01 <augur> ive decided im going to get into
19:40:24 <ehird> augur: i thought you already worked wood
19:40:25 <augur> specifically, studio craft
19:40:35 <augur> (oh ill work your wood alright)
19:40:39 <augur> and puzzlebox making
19:41:16 <augur> which implied a sexual overture
19:42:08 <augur> like in hellraiser :X
19:42:12 <augur> or atleast similar
19:44:43 -!- olsner has joined.
19:45:44 <Robdgreat> augur: was about to ask if your head was riddled with pins
19:46:06 <augur> but then, pinhead doesnt make the lament configurations
19:46:09 <ehird> meh fuck iphone, I'ma using mah old crt
19:46:09 <augur> the engineer makes them.
19:46:16 <ehird> it is actually slower
19:46:27 <ehird> its advantage is being plugged in to ethernet and having perhiphrials of course
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19:51:20 <fizzie> ehird: Speaking of phones, I'm trying out ssh+irssi with this N-Gage. The horror!
19:52:22 <fizzie> Takes about 30 of complete ui-hangup to process the ssh key.
19:53:08 <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
19:53:45 <ehird> `addquote <fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
19:53:47 <HackEgo> 61|<fizzie> Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word?
19:55:56 <fizzie> 34x26 characters with a 4x6 font.
19:55:57 <AnMaster> <ais523> only by AnMaster <-- even when reading the context I'm not sure if you mean A) Adding javadoc to generated code. B) NOT doing A. C) Adding javadoc to hand written code.
19:56:21 <ais523> I meant C, but I doubt it matters
19:56:35 <AnMaster> well I ran into both sorts of code
19:57:05 <AnMaster> other than me certainly add doxygen/javadoc/edoc/<whatever is used for the relevant language>
19:58:20 <ehird> i like how you corrected it and it's still wrong
19:58:34 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Takes about 30 [seconds] of complete ui-hangup to process the ssh key. <-- sounds to me like either slow or severely overloaded host for the ssh server?
19:58:47 <ehird> Or… it's a fuckin' mobile phone!
19:59:29 <ehird> does anyone know a vnc client for mac os 9?
19:59:56 <AnMaster> because, iirc the client part doesn't need to do as much processing as the server side.
20:00:30 <AnMaster> and I don't know enough about the protocol details to be able to confirm/deny it.
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20:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, just wondering what the hell you plan to do. VNC *server* I could have understood.
20:17:19 <AnMaster> and: no idea of such a software
20:17:33 <ehird> I installed a program that creates a virtual screen and exposes it via VNC.
20:17:46 <ehird> = Who doesn't want an extra 800x600 of realestate running on a slow OS on a loud computer?
20:17:48 <AnMaster> and you want to use a CRT for it?
20:18:01 <ehird> That's all I have, man.
20:18:09 <ehird> Well, I tried my iPhone.
20:18:15 <ehird> Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow.
20:18:32 <ais523> you can make your mouse into an 800x600 screen?
20:18:45 <ais523> theory: optical mice can control the brightness of the laser they use to illuminate the table below them
20:18:50 <ehird> When did I say mouse?
20:18:51 <ais523> and can also tell where they are, due to being mice
20:18:57 <ais523> <ehird> Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow.
20:19:08 <ais523> so, in theory, you could get an optical mouse and move it around in midair really quickly
20:19:10 <ehird> 20:18] ehird: Well, I tried my iPhone.
20:19:11 <ehird> [20:18] ehird: Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow.
20:19:23 <ais523> and it could project a screen onto the surface below it
20:19:26 <AnMaster> I think ais523 is trying to joke
20:19:32 <ais523> reasons this doesn't work: no mouse is that fast and accurate
20:19:35 <ehird> ais523: that could work for vector graphics
20:19:41 <ehird> also, optical mice are sort of obsolete
20:19:50 <ais523> ehird: well, they're still common regardless
20:20:00 <ais523> what's replacing them?
20:20:10 <ehird> they're similar but work on every surface
20:20:13 <ehird> and you can't see their beam
20:20:17 <AnMaster> ehird, most new mice that aren't especially marketed to gamers seems to be optical ones still
20:20:26 <ais523> you could do the same thing just with visible light, and use the same trick
20:20:35 <ehird> and get an invisible screen!
20:20:50 <ais523> do it on a flourescent surface that makes the beam visible
20:20:55 <ehird> it's more zen this way
20:21:07 <ehird> then, put it in public and "show" pornography on it
20:21:15 <ehird> you get to edgily challenge the law and be an artist in one go!
20:21:19 <ehird> except nobody would notice.
20:21:25 <AnMaster> anyway... how would the mouse be moved? By the user still?
20:21:41 <AnMaster> if so he/she would basically draw his/her own screen and decide what is on it
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20:21:47 <ehird> by a machine if you want to have any hope at it
20:21:51 <ais523> hmm... clearly mice need motors to move around
20:21:52 <AnMaster> unless I guess you track the position of the mouse
20:21:55 <ehird> since you'd have to oscillate between two positions
20:21:58 <ehird> incredibly quickly
20:22:00 <ais523> after all, programs can move the mouse pointer
20:22:08 <AnMaster> light only active when it is supposed to draw something
20:22:11 <ais523> if that doesn't move the mouse too, clearly you have a leaky correspondence
20:22:17 <AnMaster> and the user moves it back and forth to let it fill in
20:22:27 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't think you understand
20:22:31 <ehird> as soon as you move away the light is gone
20:22:45 <ehird> ais523: not really
20:22:48 <ehird> your mousepad is smaller than your screen
20:22:53 <ehird> and you backtrack to start moving again often
20:22:57 <AnMaster> the effect will be rather like, one of those special papers where you use a pencil on the side to draw and they used some special surface to make it stick better to some areas
20:22:57 <ehird> so it's not a 1:1 mapping already
20:23:01 <ehird> also, mouse acceleration
20:23:08 <AnMaster> on a flourescent surface of course
20:23:10 <ais523> ehird: some people literally can't access the parts of their screen that don't correspond to locations for the mouse
20:23:17 <AnMaster> also you need a ball then to track without making it flourescent
20:23:19 <ais523> because they don't realise they can pick the mouse up and move it elsewhere
20:23:24 <ehird> ais523: not literally can't
20:23:27 <ehird> they're physically capable
20:23:28 <ais523> ehird: as in, don't know how
20:23:38 <ehird> ais523: yes, I was calling out your misuse of "literally"
20:23:42 <ehird> literally means literally
20:23:47 <ais523> anyway, my 'mousepad' is bigger than my screen
20:23:51 <ais523> so I can aim for the corners and sides easily
20:23:55 <ehird> AnMaster: if you're asking about two balls ask augur
20:24:04 <Deewiant> ehird: If they're mentally incapable they literally can't do it.
20:24:17 <ehird> Deewiant: they're able, they just haven't thought of it
20:25:00 <ehird> your definition of able is fucked up
20:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, to track mouse orientation and position so it can use the laser on the flourescent surface only, needs balls to track position with laser turned off
20:25:06 <ehird> i haven't jumped out of a window today
20:25:13 <ehird> however i am perfectly able of doing so
20:25:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm using a private SSH key; it's the decrypting of that which takes the 30 seconds, I think, since it hangs up immediately after giving it a passphrase, and then unhangs at the moment it starts sending packets out (sez tcpdump) to the SSH server.
20:25:38 <Deewiant> The people in question are unable without outside assistance
20:25:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, decrypting the private key? :D
20:26:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, also hang up? as in closing the TCP connection?
20:26:24 <ehird> Deewiant: your definition of able sucks
20:26:33 <AnMaster> how is that supposed to work...
20:26:33 <ehird> they are not unable; they could do it by mistake
20:26:37 <ehird> they just haven't thought of it
20:26:39 <fizzie> Well, that, or doing whatever the SSH protocol needs to have be done with the key, I don't really know the details. TCP doesn't mind a pause of half a minute, the UI just is unresponsive that long.
20:26:58 <Deewiant> ehird: I suppose you're also capable of proving Fermat's last theorem, since you could if somebody told you how?
20:27:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, with "hang up" you don't mean a TCP RST package?
20:27:21 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't respond to analogies that don't actually analogise properly
20:27:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: No. Maybe I should've used "locks up" there. Hanging up would make it rather unusable.
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20:28:17 <Deewiant> ehird: Seems like the same thing to me, but whatever.
20:28:45 <ehird> Deewiant: you may be right, it just sits badly with me
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20:33:28 <Sgeo> Where are the dangeroos?
20:33:45 <AnMaster> <fizzie> AnMaster: No. Maybe I should've used "locks up" there. Hanging up would make it rather unusable.
20:33:47 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Deewiant, good analogy in fact...
20:33:51 <AnMaster> not sure if anything was missed there
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20:35:01 <fizzie> Both of your lines I never saw.
20:39:53 <Sgeo> !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
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22:49:03 <ehird> this desk is so stupid with its sharp end of the keyboard stand thing
22:49:06 <ehird> why isn't it curved
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23:05:05 <ehird> portability makes programming unfun, I've decided
23:05:47 <pikhq> Exception: Haskell.
23:06:02 <ehird> i'm referring to lower-level sort of programming ofc
23:06:07 <pikhq> (and other high-level languages, but those are less awesome. :P)
23:06:23 <ehird> without portability you can embed machine code, use hardcoded addresses, poke registers, use hardware without abstraction layers and generally poke all around
23:06:29 <pikhq> Well, yeah. C++ and down, portability?
23:06:33 <ehird> layers of abstraction are inherently more limited and thus less fun
23:06:41 <pikhq> That's a royal bitch.
23:06:43 <ehird> and in fact the best situation is when there's only one model
23:06:46 <ehird> same speeds of everything
23:06:52 <ehird> then you can use precise timing, talk about how fast things are in literal terms
23:07:20 <pikhq> ehird, portability in those languages is not merely unfun, it is the antifun.
23:07:27 <ehird> …which brings me to my point: i want an OLPC so I can hack with Forth on openfirmware :)
23:07:33 <ehird> although that chiclet keyboard looks unfun.
23:07:41 <ehird> also I've read negative things about the olpc people
23:07:52 <ehird> why can't I buy an olpc from the company before they did that?
23:07:52 <pikhq> Having to just deal with different UNIXes is a PITA.
23:08:03 <ehird> well okay you can't really buy it but.
23:08:10 <pikhq> (I offer Autotools as proof of that)
23:09:24 <ehird> what lead to my revelation: being on an island and having a vis— wait, that was John. What I meant to say was http://lukego.livejournal.com/8427.html.
23:10:48 <ehird> hmph, you can buy an olpc but for >$300 since you have to buy an extra one for some stupid kid in africa :-P
23:11:22 <ehird> oh, they're not even doing that program any more
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23:42:51 <ehird> Forth is a wonderful language
23:44:38 <ehird> Hey, that's the solution to my JIT-in-assembler woes!
23:44:42 <ehird> Write the core OS in Forth!
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23:52:57 <ehird> Forth is awesome, don't you agree?
23:54:02 <mycroftiv> i havent used it personally so i dont actually have an opinion on forth, really
23:54:48 <ehird> Extremely minimal implementation, unifying paradigm/execution mechanism and extreme flexibility; with the flexibility not only being idiomatic but pretty much The Way To Do It.
23:54:55 <ehird> Sounds like a good mix to me.
23:55:38 <mycroftiv> i like a lot of the concepts, the reflexivity and integrating compilation with the main environment
23:56:15 <ehird> I also like that it brings such expressiveness to real-time hackery of low-level hardware.
23:57:36 <mycroftiv> my grandfather started me out on RPN with this ancient hewlett-packard calculator that cost probably 500 million dollars in the late 60s currency he bought it with, but i still havent quite learned to parse that kind of stack based stuff as well as i should by eye
23:59:13 <ehird> mycroftiv: the nice thing about forth is that it doesn't generally read like rpn
23:59:28 <ehird> because of parsing words that can read ahead and the general natural language formation