00:00:41 <mycroftiv> what is some of your thinking on symbols and syntax?
00:01:43 <mycroftiv> i find it incredibly frustrating that compared to mathematics, the use of symbols in computer languages is entirely inconsistent and contradictory
00:02:10 <ehird> Syntax is a bloody pain in the arse.
00:02:34 <ehird> I think to improve on it we need to take cues from user interface design, because that's what it is.
00:03:15 <ehird> I dislike s-expressions because they put a less common usecase, metaprogramming, over the more common one: regular programming.
00:03:34 <ehird> I'm pro-metaprogramming, but the whole language doesn't have to be made worse just for it.
00:03:55 <mycroftiv> ill accept that, thats for sure - you always want the stuff you do the most often to have the most direct expression
00:07:20 <ehird> otoh, sometimes tailoring syntax for metaprogramming can lead to great things
00:07:35 <ehird> e.g. a forth example: (I'll pastebin a console log due to laziness)
00:07:38 <mycroftiv> definitely, its very interesting the power of just a graceful noptation
00:08:09 <ehird> http://pastie.org/570426.txt?key=2vfkfnbijhced9ucvqbjw
00:08:20 <ehird> with a less minimal syntax, I couldn't have done that
00:08:30 <ehird> I couldn't have my definitions be the form they create
00:08:54 <ehird> : \n cr ; was a bit gratuitous now that i think about it
00:09:28 <mycroftiv> very nice compressed expression of meaning, absolutely
00:10:16 <ehird> but I haven't seen forth scale up to a smalltalk-esque system
00:10:33 <ehird> rich structures in forth, for instance, are not really practical
00:10:38 <ehird> (rich = smalltalk object level)
00:10:56 <ehird> so I think it's good for hacking up stuff, exploring and the lower-level systems
00:11:05 <ehird> and perhaps isolated components
00:11:06 <ehird> which is still an awful lot
00:12:01 <mycroftiv> ive been playing with an idea for a language that im not entirely sure really makes sense or not, but i guess this is the place to throw it out there
00:12:29 <mycroftiv> its an incredibly minimalistic language based on the observation that such a huge amount of lines of code are just assignment statements
00:12:59 <mycroftiv> and also the observation in plan9 that everything somehow works in a somewhat similar way, with bind NEW OLD constantly - just making NEW a new name for OLD, which is basically like an assignment
00:13:54 <mycroftiv> so the idea is that you are given to stat - a basic environment that just has names that correspond to various basic functions (obviously a name for screen display, a name for keyboard input, that kind of thing)
00:14:20 <ehird> mycroftiv: note that in haskell assignment is much less common
00:14:23 <mycroftiv> and then the only thing you ever do - the only statement that exists - is just assignment / binding - you get tokens also of course to work with, numbers and letters etc
00:14:30 <mycroftiv> i understand the functional languages are totally different
00:14:34 <ehird> as generally you just make transformations, sometimes splitting a value into two to retain one or to perform two operations
00:14:39 <ehird> just throwing it out there
00:14:51 <ehird> I'm not convinced that assignment as an operation is very useful
00:14:56 <ehird> as opposed to a syntactic denotation of a name
00:15:24 <mycroftiv> well thats really exactly what im trying to get at
00:15:40 <ehird> so how do you use assignment to do things?
00:15:46 <mycroftiv> the idea that maybe you can make an enviroment where 'all you do' is just define the names
00:16:15 <mycroftiv> well, you obviously have to have some names/objects that correspond in a simple way to things like input and output
00:16:48 <mycroftiv> as a very lame conceptual example, the idea that you can do 'bind keyboard screen' - and then what you type shows up on the screen - captures a little bit of it
00:17:11 <ehird> as graphical noise, I assume
00:17:26 <ehird> mycroftiv: anyway, that's a distinct operation from assignment
00:17:42 <ehird> it's plugging one thing into another
00:17:49 <mycroftiv> because i can conceptualize assignment as making a variable a 'label' for a number
00:18:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: piping the value to a program which holds on to it
00:18:12 <ehird> and then outputs it forever
00:18:40 <mycroftiv> sure, there are lots of mappings of what is going on
00:20:05 <mycroftiv> the core of the idea is just an environment where all you do is create the names you want to use, decide what labels will refer to what tokens/values, and 'thats it'
00:21:02 <ehird> I don't think it's assignment.
00:21:16 <mycroftiv> thats true, but since the language doesnt have assingment as a separate concept...
00:21:29 <mycroftiv> it seems like the idea of 'naming' can kind of encompass it - in fact, 'late binding' is really related
00:21:46 <mycroftiv> late binding plays with the distinction between 'just a name' and an actual 'changing a thing' right?
00:22:11 <ehird> Late binding just changes how names are resolved, not assigned
00:22:25 <ehird> mycroftiv: I think assignment is a *subset* of your operation.
00:22:34 <mycroftiv> oh yeah absolutely, thats the idea
00:27:18 <mycroftiv> its obviously a conceptual/experimental language, the question being 'what is the minimal set of initial objects/tokens that you need for such an environment to be theoretically usable and turing complete?'
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00:29:15 <mycroftiv> just to easily establish that its certainly possible, you could obviously supply an environment where the premade objects that you get to rename/bind are an infinitely long tape, a collection of 'stateholders' and then the obvious mark-making rules - of course at that point youve just overlaid a silly semantics across a generic utm, but its just a limit case
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00:31:24 <oerjan> GregorR-L: i am not sure it is very wise to worship ehird
00:31:52 <oerjan> ehird: he greeted you with OMG
00:32:33 <oerjan> ehird and GregorR-L and oerjan, oh my
00:32:45 * ehird warship's your mom
00:32:51 <ehird> without the apostrophe
00:32:58 <ehird> shit that's the first apostrophe mistake i've made in, like, years
00:33:03 * GregorR-L , oerjan and Deewiant should from a clique and call it GOD
00:33:10 <oerjan> beware, though, of the wereship
00:33:46 <ehird> I should form a clique and call it E
00:35:01 <ehird> "Man would i hate to be oedipus, just imagine your liver being eaten by a whale every morning because you fell into the water"
00:36:07 <oerjan> sadly, there is no E13 or E14 simple lie group
00:36:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: I know right :D
00:37:13 <oerjan> FAIL mythological biology, or...
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00:37:54 <GregorR-L> ehird: From now on "fell into the water" will be coy talk for "fucked yer mum"
00:37:59 <oerjan> oh wait, that was prometheus
00:38:19 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/973fj/the_gamers_dream_girlfriend_pic/c0bnqyz
00:38:25 <ehird> I think it's like 70 things in once
00:38:38 <ehird> GregorR-L: What does liver being eaten mean?
00:38:42 <ehird> How does the whale effect it?
00:38:46 <ehird> What about morning?
00:39:50 <GregorR-L> His liver metaphorically represents his honor for his father.
00:39:59 <GregorR-L> Which is destroyed (eaten) early in his life (in the morning)
00:40:19 <GregorR-L> The whale represents the fact that whales are cool.
00:40:22 * oerjan swats GregorR-L -----###
00:40:28 <ehird> GregorR-L: But every morning?
00:40:32 <oerjan> (for the in the morning reference)
00:40:33 <ehird> So, like, reincarnation?
00:48:02 <oerjan> a deep well, with a whale in it
00:51:49 <ehird> I am now convinced that a system with Forth at the low-level and Lisp or Smalltalk at the high-level is the way to go.
00:52:42 <oerjan> i think the highlevel language should be called Multiply, for obvious reasons
01:01:43 <ehird> oerjan: no, clearly it should be Fift or Fith
01:02:07 <ehird> ("Fiff't" and… "Fith", respectively.)
01:02:59 <oerjan> ehird doesn't like my pun :(
01:10:53 <ehird> Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right?
01:11:38 <ehird> So can we have the red/grue colour system? :-)
01:11:51 <mycroftiv> grue/bleen is superior - you know that paradox?
01:12:12 <mycroftiv> its an attack on the validity of inductive reasoning
01:13:03 <mycroftiv> define the property 'grue' to mean 'green before the year 2050, blue afterwards' and 'bleen' to mean 'blue before 2050, green afterwards' - the problem is:
01:13:20 <mycroftiv> how can we say 'the sky is blue' is a better statement than 'the sky is bleen' ?
01:13:34 <mycroftiv> since all the observational evidence that confirms the first also confirms the second
01:13:52 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term
01:14:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: I was just using the term referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_in_language
01:14:59 <ehird> [[Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right?]]
01:15:04 <ehird> s/colours/cultures/ ofc
01:15:12 <oerjan> "Thus, the three most basic colors are black, white, and red (in his 1924 book Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler described this as his justification for his choice of the colors for the Nazi flag, as he felt these three colors would most appeal to the masses)."
01:15:38 <mycroftiv> doesnt research show that there is actually a set progression for the introduction of color words into languages?
01:15:45 <ehird> mycroftiv: sort of.
01:15:57 <oerjan> mycroftiv: that's what the link refers to
01:16:53 <mycroftiv> i pride myself on trying to talk out my ass based on pre existing knowledge without letting the wikipedia borg always outthink me - its a losing battle
01:17:15 <mycroftiv> you know, when i was a kid and we were talking about what sci-fi was real and what wasnt
01:17:43 <oerjan> hitler had particular foresight there, since the actual scientific study wasn't until 1969
01:17:50 <mycroftiv> i thought, based on what i knew about computers at the time - early 80s - that the single most bs thing in scifi was the computer on the Enterprise in star trek that could answer any question you asked perfectly
01:18:08 <mycroftiv> little did i know id be feeling obsoleted by such a device just a couple decades later
01:18:11 <ehird> well that's mathematically impossible :-P
01:18:21 <ehird> anyway wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all /shrug
01:18:51 <mycroftiv> oh yeah no doubt, sucks in a ton of ways - i used to spend hours and hours trying to work as an editor on the classical music articles
01:19:09 <ehird> unfortunately wikipedia only works because of its truly sad editor base
01:19:17 <ehird> I depress myself just looking at the non-article pages
01:19:26 <mycroftiv> i also was part of a horrible, horrible long running fight to save the 'einstein' wikipedia page from long term attack by these people who felt like einstein stole it all from henri poincare - which is actually a complex issue
01:19:36 <mycroftiv> and made for a truly amazing struggle that was like 2 years long
01:20:23 <ehird> wikipedia's, in general, a bunch of idiotic naive people who are all despicably sociopathic: ridiculous abundances of community "friendship" with unbelievable cliques, cabals and the like; incredibly focused on bureaucracy; and truly spiteful and hateful to anyone they oppose
01:20:56 <mycroftiv> yeah i certainly couldnt deal with the social aspect of the editing universe, i just tried to work purely on content
01:20:56 <ehird> oh, and they're all utterly obsessed with wikipedia
01:21:06 <ehird> i've never seen a significant editor who has a life and doesn't dedicate so much time to it
01:21:17 <mycroftiv> i still clean up pages as seems needed, but i often do it anon rather than logging into my editor account
01:21:19 <ehird> it's an utter shame that without these awful people, wikipedia wouldn't really work
01:24:06 <mycroftiv> actually, i think wikipedia is amazingly successful in that regard - when you think about the human energy that pre-wikipedia would have gone into purely personal obsessiveness, that now can be devoted to making sure that all fancruft in a given area is rigidly thought-policed for series continuity failures, its amazing
01:24:52 <ehird> still a bit depressing though
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01:28:45 <ehird> Doo doo doo, Forth is fun, doo doo doo, Smalltalk is fun. It's nice to see a plan come together. …although nicer to see it implemented, which would be very unlike me.
01:34:03 <oerjan> but then you would be able to cackle maniackally!
01:35:27 <oerjan> hm, maniack would be a nice term for a mad scientist, analogous to magick
01:39:19 <ehird> Maniack's Almanack of Magick
01:40:08 <oerjan> "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science"
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03:20:48 <pikhq> OCZ is selling 1TB SSDs...
03:20:48 <pikhq> Jeeze, that's crazy.
03:21:12 <pikhq> Oh, *now* I'm impressed.
03:21:34 <pikhq> That's right. Hard drive manufacturer using binary units. Fuck yeah.
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08:12:30 <mycroftiv> anyone who wants to leave their mind a smoking crater of knowledge can check:
08:40:00 <Gracenotes> is that the self-published papers site?
08:40:40 <Gracenotes> whoa, category theory in quantum physics
08:42:09 <mycroftiv> very respected researcher, this is a major summary paper of the state of his thinking on some amazing cross-disciplinary connections
08:43:07 <mycroftiv> for computer oriented people, the later section of the paper is obviously going to be 'home turf' but the whole point is the extensive and formally valid 'mapping between mappings of mappings'
08:45:07 <Gracenotes> how conceptual/abstract is the mapping?
08:45:20 <Gracenotes> hm, if it is actually formally valid...
08:45:36 <mycroftiv> well, since its category theory in the first place, its very very abstract - but it is also serious formal mathematics, not at all somebody making up bs
08:46:24 <Gracenotes> I mean abstract more in a philosophical way.. but if you say there's no BS :P
08:47:12 <mycroftiv> well the goal of the paper is definitely philosophical, to show the deep structural correspondences between different fields, but the mechanism is a careful formal investigation of the actual mathematical content of the disciplines
08:48:34 <mycroftiv> the author, john baez, has one of the best websites that has ever been on the internet, 'this week's finds in mathematical physics' which was a 'blog' before anybody invented that ugly word - started on january 19 1993, how about that!
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10:02:51 <immibis> http://normish.org/home/immibis/jsrotate/
10:04:24 <Deewiant> Heikki Kallasjoki's Master's thesis presentation 11.8
10:04:41 <Deewiant> I'll be there and ask tricky questions
10:05:49 <fizzie> There's also Teemu Ruokolainen's (another guy in the speech group) similar presentation there in ten minutes; I'm about to go there to do some reconnaissance to see what them things are like.
10:06:45 <Deewiant> I've been to a few; the topic doesn't interest me that much so I wasn't planning on bothering with that one
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10:53:57 <fizzie> Heh, there was pretty much just the speech group people in that one, plus I guess some others involved in the two EU-funded projects it was related to.
10:54:32 <fizzie> The A328 room is not that big (fits maybe a dozen people comfortably) so don't start any mass movements, now.
10:56:34 <fizzie> I think I'm going to just keep my SPECOM'09 conference presentation again, to save some preparation time. Maybe slightly altered.
10:58:51 <oklopil> you can't reuse a presentation, that's like having two of the same pokemon in a ball
10:59:20 <fizzie> I don't think I know what that means. Does it mean they start procreating in there?
11:00:05 <oklopil> i actually have no idea, it started with like having these packs of pokemon cards, what if someone gets a pokemon they already have, then i just mixed it up a bit
11:00:50 <oklopil> if someone already heard it, they'll probably laugh at you and throw a shoe
11:01:43 <oklopil> (kinda like you throw pokeballs?)
11:01:53 <fizzie> Mikko's probably going to be there, and he's heard it already. It's probably harder to do shoe-avoidance in a small room, even.
11:03:11 <fizzie> Anyway, there's that famous mathematician joke with the "reduce to a problem that's already solved" theme; I'm just applying that to the presentation.
11:03:35 <oklopil> well i guess that makes sense
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13:09:00 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot
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15:15:30 <nooga> my regexp based C++ code analyzer is done :D
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15:52:12 <pikhq> Shame that it probably fails.
15:52:22 <pikhq> (irregular syntax and all that jazz
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16:01:12 <edwardk> nooga: what can it analyze?
16:10:20 <oklopil> pikhq: i doubt it fails if it just does comments, because c++ has a fairly simple lexing
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16:12:34 <pikhq> Ah. Yeah, that'd help a lot.
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16:23:17 <Deewiant> Hey, what is edwardk doing here
16:23:30 <Deewiant> Planning on making an esolang based on category-extras? :-P
16:23:49 <Deewiant> (Or did you decide that it counts as an esolang as-is)
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16:26:19 <edwardk> Deewiant: actually thats kind of what kata is ;)
16:26:49 <edwardk> Deewiant: a little less esoteric than the meat and potatos of this community though ;)
16:28:03 <ais523> hmm... yet another person here I don't recognise, this channel seems to be expanding massively atm
16:28:09 <Deewiant> Does Kata have anything online? A quick google only gives a few mentions
16:28:17 <edwardk> ais523: i wander in every few months
16:28:54 <edwardk> Deewiant: not yet, you can get some glimmers from the hac phi photos which generally have lots of kata scribbled on the walls, but hrmm. i have an old syntax fragment here somewhere
16:29:17 <edwardk> deewiant: http://comonad.com/Category.ks-old -- read class as an ML module signature
16:30:17 <oklopil> edwardk's been here a few times
16:31:04 <Deewiant> Maybe I would if I knew any ML
16:31:19 <oklopil> unfortunately no one was fluent enough in category theory to understand him
16:31:56 <Deewiant> http://yorgeys.smugmug.com/gallery/9039600_Ra9wn/2/601548443_XZNvE#601548455_HVNez-A-LB appears to have some Kata too, yes
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17:19:43 <ehird_> I haven't said anything all day
17:24:47 <oklopil> i don't use anything else, but the bigger ones are kinda annoying to carry around
17:28:08 <oklopil> 18:46 CESSMASTER has joined #ESOTERIC <<< does the server send the capitalization you use when you join? 8|
17:28:22 <oklopil> (19:04 Asztal has joined #esoteric)
17:36:07 <Asztal> but without laptops I will never have a LAN party on a train
17:37:22 <ehird_> they suck because there isn't one that's good for me :P
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18:15:32 * pikhq sticks the insane uberbuild in a laptop case
18:15:48 <pikhq> (ignore the inexplicable bending of spacetime involved, please)
18:17:07 -!- CESSMASTER has joined.
18:18:55 <pikhq> ehird_: Just the current one.
18:19:39 <ehird_> pikhq: but how long does the battery last and how heavy is it?!
18:20:04 <pikhq> ehird_: Approximately 5 minutes, and it weighs a few hundred pounds.k
18:20:15 <ehird_> pikhq: 5 minutes? That must be a looooot of batteries.
18:20:35 <pikhq> ehird_: Well, it's an uberbuild. Surely you wouldn't skimp on the UPS?
18:20:47 <ehird_> For a laptop. Yes. Yes I would :P
18:21:16 <pikhq> What, you don't have titanium legs?
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18:39:13 <Deewiant> http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us/
18:39:58 <pikhq> I could've sworn Homo erectus went extinct quite a while ago.
18:40:19 <pikhq> (unless you count Homo floriensus as a subspecies of erectus))
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18:56:21 <ehird_> "1. Race does not exist - a black person is just a white person with a suntan and wooly hair."
19:10:18 <ehird_> Deewiant: so wtf is that site about
19:11:21 <ehird_> seems to be pro eugenics, lawl
19:12:33 <Deewiant> 2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) If you recognize that Negroes carry mostly Homo Erectus traits ( http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us ) while all other races evolved fully into humans, you will love Chimpout.com! WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS, rather NEGRO INFERIORISTS!
19:12:37 <Deewiant> We at Chimpout.com love the rainbow diversity of humanity and welcome Asians, non-Negroid Hispanics, Semites, Indians, Gays, Whites, Turkics, etc. After all, I am Mexican. Join in the epic battle of hu
19:12:39 <Deewiant> 2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) man vs NIIIIGGGGER at Chimpout Forums! http://www.chimpout.com/forum
19:15:32 <ehird_> Deewiant: what channel's that from :D
19:15:32 <pikhq> Ah, Homo sapiens stultus.
19:15:41 <ehird_> Homo sapiens niggerus.
19:15:57 <ehird_> Deewiant: did he just say that and run or was he kicked?
19:16:17 <Deewiant> He had a chance to say it twice before that
19:17:10 <ehird_> "I've been "debating" a nigger on youtube who thinks he "be an Izraelite an' sheyit". I've been kicking this nigger's ass throughout the debate (yet in typical nigger fashion, he thinks he's winning lol)"
19:17:10 <ehird_> Nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger. Nigger, nigger! Nigger.
19:17:10 <ehird_> It's a whole new language.\
19:17:36 <ehird_> "Niggers don't have skin, they have hide because they run around the jungle as naked savage apes."
19:18:26 <ehird_> [[You can trot out all the "magic niggers" such as Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell all you want. They are a rare, rare kind that you niggers ostracized for telling "da troof" about your piece of shit coon-munity.]]
19:18:33 <ehird_> Magic niggers. Coon-munity.
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19:19:40 <ehird_> "How does a nigger feel knowing that they are the same color as thier shit?"
19:19:40 <ehird_> Guess this guy doesn't like the Zune.
19:25:20 <ehird_> OK, it's transcended hilarity and entered
19:25:21 <ehird_> [["I don't hate niggers. I just think everyone should own one."- My mom]]
19:26:17 <pikhq> That is so very depressing.
19:36:02 <ehird_> http://play.markharpur.com/img/logicfail.JPG
19:39:19 <Sgeo> I don't quite get what's going on
19:39:57 <mycroftiv> on a serious note, i think the resurgence of racism as a fashionable intellectual stance proves that the attempt by well-meaning people to censor and regulate speech had totally perverse consequences
19:40:37 <mycroftiv> the fact is, that if you tell kids that some words are not to be said, that some ideas arent allowed to be considered, you give those ideas power and status and appeal
19:40:48 <ehird_> that's fucking obvious though
19:40:59 <ehird_> but you're not talking to such people :P
19:41:11 <Deewiant> ehird_: That's one hell of a screenshot, especially since you could just link to the page :-P
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19:42:50 <oklopil> i would definitely like to own a slave, i don't care about color though.
19:43:20 <mycroftiv> oklopil: as a practical matter, dont worry, you still can, even though such arrangements arent usually called that any more
19:44:19 <oklopil> i would probably prefer a consenting slave, so that would be a better way to do it anyway
19:44:27 <oklopil> assuming you're talking about paying them
19:44:35 <oklopil> you might also be talking about getting a gf
19:45:14 <mycroftiv> well, i was making a vague reference to several things - the most direct reference being the people who get illegal immigrant servants and then terrorize them into slaver with threats of deportation, etc - i could google for some links, there was a notable case recently
19:45:47 <oklopil> that doesn't sound like something that happens much in finland, then again i wouldn't know if it did.
19:46:35 <mycroftiv> it happens to some extent (i believe) based on most places that have a pool of illegal immigrant labor
19:46:35 <oklopil> and i can't really imagine myself threatening anyone
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19:49:23 <oklopil> actually i'm not sure i'd want a slave, i'd probably just prefer having enough money so i could eat out more often.
19:50:40 <pikhq> oklopil: A "consenting slave" would be either a form of BDSM or an emlpoyee. ;)
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19:51:48 <mycroftiv> actually the idea that money can replace slavery is actually morally sound and is why the liberal secular humanists need to get their heads out of their butts and start thinking intelligently about complex evolutionary dynamic systems rather than mindlessly thinking money == bad
19:52:07 <pikhq> mycroftiv: ... There's people who think money == bad?
19:52:26 <mycroftiv> pikhq: lots of them, and i talk like those people a lot of the time through sloppy language
19:52:43 <pikhq> I always thought that the reasoning was that money implies power, and power is often abused.
19:52:49 <Sgeo> http://pygbot.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pygbot/trunk/pyGBot/Plugins/games/Mafia.py?view=markup#l_799
19:52:59 <pikhq> I guess that would be the reasoning of *sane* liberal secular humanists.
19:53:07 <mycroftiv> yes - but a lot of people are very sloppy about making that connection clear, and the association 'money is bad' happens rather than a real analysis of power and self interest
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20:01:22 <ehird_> mycroftiv: I'm a liberal secular humanist :P
20:01:29 <ehird_> …though I've never said money is bad.
20:03:10 <oklopil> doesn't humanist usually imply secular
20:03:16 <mycroftiv> ehird_: im a liberal secular humanist too! thats why i want us to stop talking foolishness
20:03:44 <mycroftiv> oklopil: often, but not necessarily - for instance, you could think gods exist, but they arent important
20:04:14 <ehird_> mycroftiv: Anyway, I don't think non-capitalist systems should be rejected outright, though I haven't seen one that works yet.
20:04:39 <ehird_> (And there are plenty of capitalist systems that should be thrown out: completely "free" markets, for instance.)
20:05:00 <oklopil> if it doesn't work, someone will start a business that makes it work!
20:05:17 <mycroftiv> ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth
20:05:18 <ehird_> Free market capitalism works because people always buy the better product!
20:05:48 -!- impomatic has joined.
20:05:56 <mycroftiv> fundamentally, capitalism is totally broken because the information flows that it is based on are horribly incomplete
20:06:11 <oklopil> by information flows you mean what exactly?
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20:06:24 <mycroftiv> i live in a town with what used to be 4 beautiful lakes - it now has 4 totally disgusting and usable lakes due to fertilizer runoff and pollution
20:06:48 <ehird_> we need a market system based on quantum darwinism
20:06:55 <mycroftiv> this happens because the information about and 'value' represented by the lakes doesnt really interact with the capital economy system - that important information is 'missing'
20:06:58 <ehird_> only perfect transactions get carried towards through the future and the rest are sent to backwater universes
20:07:00 <Pthing> your radical ideas on information technology as Salvation have occurred to others and been found wanting
20:07:05 <oklopil> not wanting to pollute the earth is a bit too conservative for my taste
20:07:17 <ehird_> oklopil: you're crazy <3
20:07:37 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i dont support IT as salvation at all, in fact I think the use of IT in computerized trading may literally destroy the human race through unintended consequences
20:07:50 <Pthing> <mycroftiv> ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth
20:08:09 <ehird_> Pthing, he never said IT
20:08:12 <oklopil> ehird_: i love how you've stopped preaching to me, and just accepted no sense can enter my head
20:08:19 <ehird_> oklopil: i feel a lot better now :D
20:08:20 <mycroftiv> Pthing: that simply means that we can no longer ignore the fundamental laws of science and the basic physical realities of our condition on earth
20:08:20 <Pthing> well gosh what does he possibly mean
20:08:42 <Pthing> goodness, you mean quantum field politics
20:08:55 <ehird_> mycroftiv vs Pthing; I'll come back in 5 hours
20:09:11 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, not really - why are you trying to ridicule a concept that i certainly havent even stated fully or explicitly?
20:09:27 <Pthing> because it is worth ridiculing every time somebody brings it up
20:09:36 <Pthing> it's a trap a lot of people fall into
20:09:38 <ehird_> mycroftiv: can you just answer me one thing, as a semi-unbiased observer
20:09:41 <mycroftiv> "brings it up" - you are totally projecting onto me beliefs that i dont have
20:09:47 <ehird_> mycroftiv: does your market system depend on quantum darwinism
20:10:10 <Pthing> mycroftiv, it's more a matter of alarm bells
20:10:15 <mycroftiv> ehird_: zurek's model of how quantum mechanical information is transmitted is incredibly important, but i doubt that it has any direct implications for human-level economics, no
20:10:27 <Pthing> "economy based on * scienc*"
20:10:40 <Pthing> actually make it scien*
20:10:57 <oklopil> who cares about irl economies
20:11:02 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i dont understand the alternative - an economy based on ignorance?
20:11:05 <oklopil> those are so unpure and boring
20:11:08 <Pthing> that's what they all are
20:11:13 <ehird_> an economy based on GHOSTS
20:11:17 <Pthing> Anything else is a religious hope
20:11:33 <ehird_> strange definition of religious
20:11:37 <ehird_> are you using it to mean "things i disagree with"
20:11:38 <Pthing> which is why I consider it more salvation from economics, rather than an actual economic system
20:11:48 <mycroftiv> Pthing: sorry, i cant tell what you are responding to exactly - somehow are you saying economics is inherently based on ignorance, and trying to improve the quality of information available in our economic system is religion?
20:11:49 <Pthing> No, in a soteriological sense!
20:12:15 <Pthing> Improving the quality, sure, but that doesn't mean destroying it and rebuilding it on scientific bases will achieve that
20:12:21 <Pthing> or, indeed, that it cannot be achieved any other way
20:12:35 <Pthing> except from setting the whole world on fire and bringing in New Rational Economics
20:12:49 <oklopil> i'll go wash the dishes. that's how impure and boring economy talk is! ->
20:13:01 <mycroftiv> Pthing: im just looking at real-world problems - namely the fact that i have been economically impoverished by the loss of value caused by the destruction of the lakes in my town
20:13:19 <Pthing> okay so what's the real-world solution
20:13:25 <mycroftiv> that happened because the value represented by the lakes - a real thing even to the most conservative free marketeer - that value was not integrated into the economic activites that took place
20:13:41 <mycroftiv> human beings dump fertilizer and crap on their lawns, make golf courses - and those create real costs, and loss of wealth
20:13:52 <mycroftiv> im saying we need to get MORE and BETTER information into the system
20:13:53 <Pthing> yes, yes. but what's the real-world solution
20:14:08 <ehird_> Pthing: you seem obsessed with the real world
20:14:08 <mycroftiv> Pthing: set the world on fire and bring in New Rational Economics!
20:14:11 <ehird_> may i point you to this topic
20:14:14 <Pthing> mycroftiv, a good idea!
20:14:43 <mycroftiv> Pthing: anyway, i do have specific ideas for how to bring more information flow into our economic system, but i dunno if anyone really wants any more monologue from me
20:15:25 <mycroftiv> ok, sure :) i 100% agree that this is an incredibly hard topic and that there is no silver bullet, and people who think that the world sucks just because mean people are mean, are clueless
20:15:49 <mycroftiv> however i dont think that means we cant make huge improvements to the mechanisms of decision making and resource allocation
20:16:09 <mycroftiv> Pthing: sorry man this takes a bit for me to try to establish the concepts
20:16:20 <mycroftiv> if you are expect a 1 sentence solution, i dont have that
20:16:37 <Pthing> well no, the people with one sentence solution are the Worst People
20:16:45 <Pthing> so often it just boils down to like
20:16:52 <Pthing> The Computer Will Tell Everyone What To Do.
20:16:57 <Pthing> which is very sad to see
20:16:57 <ehird_> i've always wanted an oppertunity to say a pretentious comment,
20:16:58 <mycroftiv> however, i do know that the basis of our existence is that we are fragile clumps of carbon compounds existing in a very delicate equilibrium on a single planet, and all the evidence indicates that this is only a 'semistable' equilibrium
20:17:21 <ehird_> everyone will jump to rebut it
20:17:26 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, i am absolutely opposed to the idea of computer-run economies, and i think high speed financial comptuerized trading is highly destructive of a sane economic principles
20:17:27 <ehird_> having successfully trollaxed
20:17:42 <ehird_> "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
20:18:07 <Pthing> well man, that's not really the same thing
20:18:19 <mycroftiv> i think the chain of reasoning that defines 'value' as 'that which a living being needs to sustain its life, and that which it subjectively chooses to pursue' is sensible as a starting place
20:18:21 <ehird_> (mycroftiv: btw you realise that you cannot stop people using computers to do it?)
20:18:31 <Pthing> the computers applied to high finance just make it easier for the bankers to make their pretend dollars
20:18:39 <Pthing> they did it fine plenty of times in the past without them
20:18:55 <mycroftiv> ehird_: i cant stop almost any of the bad things that happen in the world, i can just try to do what i can in the world i am in connection with
20:19:10 <ehird_> Pthing: "pretend" dollars?
20:19:29 <mycroftiv> so anyway - its clear that our most important stock of 'value' is the planet earth we live on - if it goes away, we all get REAL POOR REAL FAST
20:20:01 <ehird_> Pthing: right guess they're like fake dollars
20:20:17 <ehird_> mycroftiv: you are overlooking the possibility of space colonisation!
20:20:27 <mycroftiv> so purely for 100% rational self-interested free-market reasons, it makes sense for people to construct a system of economic values that includes metrics based on the planet earth, and try to put as much information as possible from thsoe realities into the system
20:20:40 <mycroftiv> ehird_: not at all - im just discouraged about its practicality based on the current scientific research and state of the art technologies
20:20:41 <Deewiant> ehird_: How possible do you think it is that it's already happened?
20:20:41 <Pthing> except when it doesn't
20:20:50 <Deewiant> (I.e. it hasn't yet so it doesn't count.)
20:21:14 <mycroftiv> ehird_: there was a time when i thought space travel and exploration meant we didnt need to worry too much about the planet, but a careful study of the facts has convinced me im totally wrong about that
20:21:24 <ehird_> <John> Deewiant! Come quick!
20:21:26 <ehird_> <Deewiant> What is it John?
20:21:33 <ehird_> <John> I've found a way to cure ails.
20:21:40 <ehird_> <Deewiant> That's impossible John, only praying can cure ailments.
20:21:46 <ehird_> <John> It's not! It's worked every time!
20:22:06 <ehird_> <Joe> But what about the prospect of this… "medicine"?
20:22:13 <ehird_> <Deewiant> How possible do you think it is that it's already happened?
20:22:17 <Pthing> this is the worst parable ever
20:22:22 <ehird_> Pthing: My analogies are Deewiant-quality.
20:22:36 <Deewiant> If it does happen 3 days from now, fine
20:22:39 <ehird_> Deewiant: Turn your head and squint your eyes a little.
20:22:42 <Deewiant> But given that it hasn't happened
20:22:48 <Deewiant> And that it's not very likely that it's going to happen
20:22:53 <mycroftiv> Pthing: have i convinced you yet that i am a serious student of economics and social systems and science and i am legitimately trying to address difficult issues, not just spewing ideological dogma/doctrine i read somewhere else?
20:23:06 <ehird_> Deewiant: That's what you think.
20:23:08 <Pthing> mycroftiv, oh sure, the alarm bells are disabled
20:23:08 <Deewiant> It's not worth incorporating it into current plans
20:23:15 <ehird_> Deewiant: I have a fucking space rocket.
20:23:21 <Deewiant> ehird_: Well sure, that's why I asked you about what you think :-P
20:23:42 <Deewiant> ( Deewiant) ehird_: How possible do ***you*** think it is that it's already happened?
20:24:01 <ehird_> Deewiant: Your sentence rivals "Has anyone ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" in confusability. :P
20:24:04 <Deewiant> So if you have a space rocket, then fine
20:24:06 <Pthing> I just disagree that you can really get it into people's self-interest that they need to become greens
20:24:10 <mycroftiv> Pthing: thanks very much. i also think its possible to evolve to an economic system that makes use of more and better information without actually having to blow the world up
20:24:37 <Pthing> Without blowing up a little of the world, anyway
20:24:43 <Deewiant> ehird_: I just wanted to use "possible" since you used "possibility"
20:24:46 <mycroftiv> Pthing: well, its a very deep issue. i mean, if you believe that there is a God who takes care of the world for us and we dont have to, obviously you dont go along with any of this.
20:24:55 <Pthing> No, I do not believe that.
20:25:13 <ehird_> <mycroftiv> If you disagree with me, you're religious.
20:25:18 <Deewiant> So I couldn't say "How likely do you think that it's already happened"
20:25:26 <Deewiant> Which I guess doesn't help much, looking at it now
20:25:30 <mycroftiv> so i usually boil down all economics and politics to 'we have to persuade people to be secular in their decision making at least, and even if people want to cling to religious belief, they cant make it the basis of societal decision making and expect to prosper"
20:26:07 <mycroftiv> well, i see it as the base problem - i think most people - even most 'secular' people - dont actually accept or understand the idea of rationalism and the scientific method
20:26:20 <Pthing> And well they shouldn't.
20:26:29 <mycroftiv> i know a lot of people who 'believe in science' like its a fucking religion, and think something is 100% true 'because science says so' and dont understand about models and revision of theories, etc
20:26:44 <Pthing> Even scientists don't.
20:27:23 <Pthing> Do you sincerely look at the history of science and think "There goes an enlightened portion of the human race, rational and aware of the scientific method"
20:27:40 <mycroftiv> whoa, believing in the scientific method doesnt mean believing scientists are any different than any other human beings
20:27:52 <ehird_> Einstein just threw rocks at a wall and published it.
20:28:07 <Pthing> you say the problem is that most people *aren't* like this
20:28:16 <Pthing> Now this is, to me, quite a religious sentiment.
20:28:24 <Pthing> The idea of producing a code too rigorous for anyone to follow.
20:28:48 <Pthing> It's not moral, so unlike the ethical codes of religion, when holy men fail to follow it, people do not shout at them and call them hypocrites
20:29:09 <Pthing> But it is no more achievable for all that.
20:29:10 <ehird_> <Pthing> The scientific method is impossible to follow because I said so, therefore science = religion.
20:29:16 <mycroftiv> actually , i think the idea of holding your ideas as theories, and trying to test and revise them vs. the evidence - i think that *is* a moral issue
20:29:25 <Pthing> which is what makes it so exciting
20:29:32 <Pthing> You *make* it a moral issue
20:29:45 <Pthing> And if you then, as is quite reasonable, apply it backwards
20:29:51 <Pthing> What does this make *everyone*?
20:30:10 <mycroftiv> i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless
20:30:31 <Pthing> I don't think that's a terribly good comparison
20:30:42 <Pthing> You group "religion" together as though you can even do that
20:31:12 -!- ehird_ has left (?).
20:31:17 -!- ehird_ has joined.
20:31:18 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird.
20:31:24 <mycroftiv> people use abstractions and generalizations constantly - theres no such thing as a 'human', theres just an organized lump of carbon doing stuff, the idea of a 'human' is still a generalization/abstraction that isnt '100% true'
20:31:51 <Pthing> I say the problem is twofold
20:32:26 <Pthing> a) Your conception of "religion" is too high-level, especially if you put it into parallel with something you call "the scientific method"
20:32:41 <Pthing> a') especially when you ascribe an *ethical* quality to it
20:32:43 <mycroftiv> im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals
20:32:55 <pikhq> This is one of the most absurdly meta discussions regarding religion I've seen in quite some time.
20:33:26 <Pthing> b) You think that the application of the scientific method *to* human society will come out of the individuals following it.
20:33:48 <Pthing> b') The group of people who have used the scientific method most -- scientists -- show no real sign of this, though
20:34:15 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i think you are wrong in those assertions. 1st, the evidence shows that people DO bring their politics into line with their personal beliefs. need i point at theocratic societies?
20:34:42 <Pthing> What is that supposed to follow, because I'm afraid I don't.
20:34:44 <mycroftiv> and secondly, scientists are no saints, the evidence shows that clearly - but neither do i see many scientists who are active advocates of the most negative and damaging ideas
20:35:07 <Pthing> Sure, but that's the thing.
20:35:24 <Pthing> You could not derive Iran from first principles and the Koran
20:36:04 <mycroftiv> neither do i think first principles or scientific evidence are sufficient to structure a society
20:36:18 <mycroftiv> i do not deny/denigrate the role of free human choice and emotion and 'whatever the hell we want to do'
20:36:57 <Pthing> Also, it's a gross caricature to consider that everyone living in a theocracy is very similar
20:37:05 <mycroftiv> im just saying: currently, the organization of power and the principles our society is based on are still *mostly* religious in origin, i think - partly replaced now with a practical system of capital economy that is useful, but still missing a lot of information flows
20:37:18 <ehird> [20:32] mycroftiv: im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals
20:37:18 <ehird> so much for secular huh
20:37:19 <Pthing> You use the word "religion" again
20:37:41 <Pthing> but I'm still not sure what you mean by it
20:38:05 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./
20:38:15 -!- impomatic has left (?).
20:38:21 <mycroftiv> this is a simple example, but it seems pretty clear to me
20:38:30 <mycroftiv> Pthing: yes! the historical record on this is far from obscure
20:38:36 <ehird> mycroftiv is pissed because he can't show off his genitals :D
20:38:47 <Pthing> just illustrates my point
20:38:47 <mycroftiv> ehird: they are beautiful and perfect, and squirrels worship them
20:38:52 <Pthing> that you can't blame "religion"
20:38:55 <ehird> mycroftiv: "Squirrels"
20:39:10 <Pthing> Because here it seems to me you are ascribing all norms you don't care for as being due to "religion"
20:39:42 <mycroftiv> Pthing: um, not at all - but laws that are made to preserve 'morality' are so clearly religious in origin, as a clear matter of historical fact, that im confused what you are claiming
20:39:59 <Pthing> What is clear about it?
20:40:30 <mycroftiv> that a huge amount of law and societal structure created in the past, and still being created today, is motivated by individuals attempting to bring the world into accordance with their religious beliefs
20:40:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: do you accept that someone can be pro-indecent-exposure-laws without being religious?
20:40:37 <ehird> if not, you're an idiot.
20:41:02 <Pthing> mycroftiv, that sentence works exactly the same if you remove the word "religious" from it
20:41:06 <Pthing> so why do you put it in?
20:41:33 <mycroftiv> Pthing: because the people who 'made the laws' put the word in there themselves, and its very important to them!
20:41:53 <mycroftiv> are you denying that there are still millions of people saying "we need to make laws to enforce the bible/koran/whatever' ??
20:42:25 <Pthing> No, I am not denying that, I am just confused at the, well, the single minded focus you put on this.
20:42:25 <mycroftiv> do i need to link to some websites saying "we need to make this illegal/keep this illegal/ because of religious text A/B/C ?'
20:42:29 <Sgeo> "religious beliefs" is a subset of "beliefs"
20:42:59 <Pthing> It is not easy - I'd say impossible, to talk about beliefs that are clearly *not* religious
20:43:07 <Pthing> likewise, purely "religious" ideas
20:43:13 <Pthing> It's just not a good term
20:43:14 <mycroftiv> Pthing: oh i absolutely agree - as a amtter of ontology, i think all knowledge is 'one'
20:43:20 <ehird> i dunno, it's possible to believe that a certain scientific theory will turn out to be correct
20:43:22 <Pthing> why do you *behave* like it isn't?
20:43:24 <mycroftiv> ok, fine, i am perfectly happy to eliminate the term 'religion' from my discoures
20:43:33 <Pthing> okay, so where were we
20:43:34 <ehird> thinking rationally and coming to a conclusion being impossible since there isn't any evidence either way
20:43:38 <Pthing> how would you rephrase:
20:43:39 <mycroftiv> i could state *everything* i just said in equivalent form without focusing on that word or tem at all
20:43:42 <ehird> yet i wouldn't call these hypotheses religious.
20:43:52 <Pthing> <mycroftiv> i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless
20:44:35 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the truth of statements that contradict their own sensory experience, surely the idea...
20:44:51 <ehird> mycroftiv: there's a difference
20:44:56 <Pthing> ehird, i just wanted to make the lines the same length
20:45:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: If you're told how the world works, you don't have to think.
20:45:10 <ehird> Telling them to be scientific doesn't work. They have to collate evidence.
20:45:12 <ehird> Make a conclusion.
20:45:18 <ehird> That's not nearly dogmatic enough to instill in that way.
20:45:57 <mycroftiv> Pthing: if you want i could be picking on 'superstition and the occult' - people who believe in esp, flying saucers, etc - instead of the 'religious' - or i could use lots of other terms
20:46:07 <mycroftiv> im really sorry if something that isnt my central point - religion - seemed like it.
20:46:25 <Pthing> that doesn't sound like a very good argument if you can replace it so glibly
20:46:58 <Pthing> Since if you're trying to show me that your position has *at least parity* with this other position
20:47:00 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i was using 'religion' as an easy antonym to the idea of progressively revising your ideas on the basis of experience
20:47:05 <ehird> It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial.
20:47:30 <mycroftiv> Pthing: sorry, it takes an encyclopedia to make even the statement 'water is wet' well founded by your standards
20:47:53 <mycroftiv> language is inherently imprecise - im doing the best i can to communicate
20:48:05 <Pthing> If I can persuade a billion people that Our Lady was assumed bodily into heaven, then surely I can persuade them to believe I can fly to Mars and back
20:48:24 <Pthing> even better, persuade them that they *can* fly
20:48:28 <mycroftiv> thats very plausible, whip up a few miracles, sure
20:48:37 <Pthing> No, because miracles don't work like that.
20:48:38 <mycroftiv> and the transcendal meditation people think indeed that they can fly!
20:48:48 <Pthing> What I said is a good argument
20:48:56 <mycroftiv> i dont even understand what you are arguing against now, other than simply trying to contradict anything i say
20:48:59 <Pthing> You might be able to convince that many people they can fly
20:49:03 <Pthing> But will it make them fly?
20:49:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: Pavitra goes to that transcendental meditation "university" thing, iirc.
20:49:14 <ehird> Pthing: have you seen the video?
20:49:17 <ehird> they hop around on their butts
20:49:20 <ehird> while dramatic music plays
20:49:28 <Pthing> You're using "religion" as the Big Thing that Makes Things Possible here
20:49:32 <mycroftiv> Pthing: are you saying that even if you can convince people to 'try' to be rational, they will fail? thats a very good point, if thats what you are making
20:49:57 <Pthing> now, religion, rather than just being a helpful variable for your arguments
20:49:58 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i said im happy to abandont the word 'religion' and switch to the term 'absence of belief in rational methods of observation and extrapolation/deduction'
20:50:25 <Pthing> People who don't... what whole noun phrase
20:50:30 <Pthing> aren't doing it just to be perverse
20:50:31 <ehird> let's all shut up and watch some people hop around on their butts
20:50:32 <ehird> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923
20:51:24 <ehird> and YOU TOO can fly with a personal mantra for $2,000!
20:51:28 <ehird> contact your local guru!
20:51:31 <Pthing> People *before* you have tried to instill ethical systems into people
20:52:39 <Pthing> One of the things that is grouped into religion is the whole idea of helping people to become better people
20:53:17 <Pthing> Now, actually getting people to sit down, actually sit down and think about what they have done that is bad is only a *part* of it
20:53:26 <Pthing> But all the good religions have some form of it
20:53:30 <ehird> this is pointless gaiz
20:53:41 <mycroftiv> it is one of the tragic confusions that people assume that morality is equivalent and can only be found in a non-rational belief system
20:53:44 <Pthing> This is your greater information deal
20:54:08 <Pthing> And it works, the reason why it comes up everywhere is because it works
20:54:15 <Pthing> but it's not the only thing, boy isn't it
20:54:43 <mycroftiv> Pthing: and as a matter of fact, if i seem like i talk like some kind of 'opponent' of religion, that is simply me trying to situation my discourse somewhere - as it happens, i also have long essays on hindiusm, christianity, and what the ideas of sin and salvation mean
20:54:44 <ehird> shut the fuck up guys!
20:54:48 <Pthing> Think about it, why do these people even have to sit down and think about their sins -- well, it's because they already done them, and the hope is that they won't be as bad in the future
20:54:50 <ehird> you've said like 10 things 50 times
20:55:05 <Pthing> mycroftiv, good, then you're familiar with it
20:55:35 <Pthing> The problem is that it is, as ehird says, this is not a new idea
20:55:42 <ehird> when did i say that
20:55:48 <Pthing> <ehird> you've said like 10 things 50 times
20:55:52 <Pthing> THEREFORE NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY NEW
20:55:54 <mycroftiv> Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma
20:56:09 <Pthing> I happen to think that's irrational
20:56:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: so basically you say religion is fucking up society and think rationalism is great
20:56:16 <mycroftiv> and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation
20:56:18 <ehird> then you have your big boatload of personal irrational beliefs
20:56:24 <ehird> with no rational or scientific basis
20:56:30 <ehird> sure do feel like listening to you!
20:56:40 <mycroftiv> nope, you guys are totally misunderstanding
20:56:50 <ehird> [20:55] mycroftiv: Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma
20:56:51 <ehird> [20:56] mycroftiv: and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation
20:56:53 <mycroftiv> the fact that i enjoy religious symbols and practices, and believe they can be 'translated' into meaningful terms
20:57:00 <ehird> dude, you believe in reincarnation
20:57:02 <ehird> that's not symbolism
20:57:05 <ehird> that's being reincarnated.
20:57:06 <mycroftiv> does not mean that i think we should make krishna and vishnu the basis for our economy
20:57:14 <ehird> (which is incidentally amusingly meaningless)
20:57:17 <Pthing> You are, in fact, demonstrating the main reason why it doesn't work
20:57:27 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, i dont compartmentalize at all
20:57:27 <ehird> I like how mycroftiv was all
20:57:33 <ehird> "Ohh people twist politics to their beliefs"
20:57:41 <ehird> "HARE KRISHNA REINCARNATION"
20:58:20 <Pthing> I find the whole idea of rebirth a particularly abhorrent one
20:58:29 <ehird> it doesn't even make any fucking sense
20:58:32 <mycroftiv> there is absolutely no contradiction between enjoying religion as a system of symbols and finding ways to map that symbol system onto reality in meaningful ways
20:58:34 <ehird> do you lose all your memories?
20:58:37 <ehird> then how are you you old self?
20:58:40 <mycroftiv> and believing in rational decision making about public policy
20:58:54 <Pthing> mycroftiv, sure, but then why say "I believe in reincarnation"
20:58:55 <ehird> see, that's a copout
20:58:59 <ehird> being reincarnated
20:59:01 <ehird> to physical reality
20:59:02 <Pthing> instead of "I think reincarnation is a neat idea"
20:59:08 <mycroftiv> Pthing: because im a materialist, and i believe in the law of conservation of energy
20:59:24 <ehird> Deewiant: your mom isn't either but i still use her.
20:59:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: what you just said is akin to the quantum mysticism bullshit
20:59:39 <Pthing> why say "I believe in trying to escape the wheel of karma"
20:59:56 <Pthing> Because that is a tremendously odious idea to me
21:00:04 <mycroftiv> Pthing: because i think that is a shorthand, symbolic way of communicating the idea 'if someone hits me, i might get mad and go hit someone else - but i shouldnt'
21:00:18 <ehird> That's not what karma is.
21:00:34 <ehird> that's the westernised concept of karma
21:00:50 <mycroftiv> Pthing: honestly, you dont understand what im saying, and you arent trying to. thats ok, this is still interesting, but all communication requires a sympathetic effort on the part of the listener
21:00:59 <ehird> http://shii.org/knows/Karma
21:01:22 <Pthing> I think you are making very poor usage of symbolism
21:01:39 <Pthing> You seem to be taking powerful symbols and stripping them of much of it
21:02:00 <ehird> symbolism is where you say things mean vague and unspecified other things so that you can avoid admitting that you mean the actual thing
21:02:18 <Pthing> uncharitable, it's more a matter of association!
21:02:20 -!- Pthing has left (?).
21:02:21 <mycroftiv> ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard.
21:02:24 -!- Pthing has joined.
21:02:33 <ehird> [21:02] mycroftiv: ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard.
21:02:40 <Pthing> the assocations of the idea of "karmic rebirth"
21:02:50 <ehird> "Language is symbolic therefore escaping the wheel of karma is being nice"
21:02:55 <Pthing> than "gee i think we should be nice to people what do you think about that"
21:03:18 <Pthing> People do the same to Jesus, reduce his whole ministry to "gee, just be nice!"
21:03:25 <Pthing> Which is an insult, really
21:03:30 <ehird> Be nice! And stone adulterers.
21:03:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: there is no way to communicate without oversimplifications. i speak too many words as it is, and despite this, it is always easy to pick them apart.
21:03:43 <Pthing> man, you idiot, you're doing it now, ehird
21:03:50 <ehird> Pthing: It was a joke, foo.
21:03:52 <pikhq> ehird: Þou win'ſt þe converſation.
21:04:09 <pikhq> Pthing: 'Tis called “ſarcaſm”.
21:04:11 <mycroftiv> i could work very very hard at trying to add 50,000 footnotes to every sentence i write, trying to show the 'context' in which the symbols should be interpreted, etc etc
21:04:11 <ehird> pikhq: I only win the conversation if you read my message in old english!
21:04:23 <Pthing> mycroftiv, sure, that's what symbols are for
21:04:27 <ehird> Everyone knows that the passages where he tells you to throw rocks at adulterers are just symbolic, anyway.
21:04:28 <Pthing> people implicitly understand the context
21:04:33 <Pthing> if you REMOVE EVERYTHING
21:04:34 <ehird> They're symbolic for throwing *stones* at adulterers.
21:04:53 <Pthing> and just say that you're treating karma as just a way to talk about being nice
21:05:00 <ehird> mycroftiv: If other people don't understand you,
21:05:00 <Pthing> you get a kind of symbolic *vacuum*
21:05:02 <ehird> that is YOUR failing
21:05:06 <mycroftiv> Pthing: no, im not, if you want me to be more extensive about karma, lets go for it
21:05:29 <Pthing> Because I see people do this to religion and it makes me RAEG
21:05:35 <mycroftiv> ok, since you guys have seized on this particular issue, lets dig into 'karma' and how to use the word meaningfully in a context where you want to overlap both the religious and the scientific symbol-mappings of the world
21:06:06 <ehird> i'm not in the mood for religious bs atm
21:06:10 <pikhq> Pthing: It's a bit more correct to say Jesus' ministry was "let's be nice to people for a change" than to say the same of karma. At least with Jesus' ministry, that was at least a major principle... ;)
21:06:23 <ehird> pikhq: I must be reading the bible all wrong.
21:06:33 <Pthing> man, ehird's mind isn't mind to make up
21:06:40 <Pthing> and I'm p. sure I want to talk about it
21:06:45 <ehird> Pthing: Everyone who disagrees with you is a hivemind. Trufax.
21:07:05 <Pthing> ehird, i am being polite, the truth is YOUR MIND HASN'T GROWN IN YET
21:07:13 <pikhq> ehird: I said Jesus' ministry specifically, because, well. Doesn't work so well with the *rest* of that book. ;)
21:07:17 <Pthing> you get it on your 18th birthday and that's why the law is as it is
21:07:18 <ehird> I was talking from the perspective of mycroftiv.
21:07:31 <Pthing> AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT
21:07:43 <ehird> Pthing: Confirm that you're joking, right?
21:08:13 <Pthing> i'm mostly just stalling for time until mycroftiv says something about karma
21:08:41 <ehird> The stalling's better than the result I think.
21:08:53 <mycroftiv> krsna to arjuna: "not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection. Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature"
21:09:01 <mycroftiv> "thefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment"
21:09:25 <ehird> Someone wanna volunteer to tell me when mycroftiv stops talking about bs?
21:09:35 <mycroftiv> ehird: what would you like me to talk about?
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21:09:43 <ehird> Something along the lines of not that. :P
21:09:54 <mycroftiv> ehird: just ask, and i will speak only of that which you prefer
21:10:20 <ehird> mycroftiv: The molecular structure of the byproducts of salmon scales.
21:10:31 <pikhq> mycroftiv, face it. Your arguments are much weirder than that of Christian apologists.
21:11:09 <mycroftiv> pikhq: honestly, i dont think i even got to make any arguments, all that really happened was the inability to make any statements without semantic conflicts and objections.
21:11:41 <mycroftiv> i dont believe a single 'idea' that i have was successfully communicated, and im sure its my fault for poor communication
21:11:52 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Because the statements you made made negative sense.
21:11:54 <pikhq> Not just no sense, negative sense.
21:11:54 <ehird> I think it'd help if your ideas were less crazy. :P
21:11:56 <mycroftiv> pikhq: as i said, its my fault for poor communication
21:12:24 <ehird> Fairly sure that no communication could make me believe in the westernised form of karma.
21:12:28 <Pthing> is there any hope for a more perfect information flow to Save Our Dollars?
21:12:30 <mycroftiv> ehird: if you recall, my original idea was "it is possible to create an economic system that wont destroy the lakes in the town i live in, and i think for that to happen, people need to use rational decision making mechanisms more."
21:12:46 <Pthing> Because if you can't get across these ideas
21:12:47 <ehird> So did you formulate this "theory" just because you liked those lakes or something?
21:12:48 <mycroftiv> ehird: so i fail to see how that particular proposition is really very crazy or contains 'negative sense', but ah well.
21:12:50 <Pthing> what hope is there for anything else
21:12:53 <ehird> mycroftiv: I did not say negative sense.
21:12:59 <ehird> Please stop equating Pthing, pikhq and me.
21:13:00 <ehird> It is very offensive.
21:13:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: sorry i didnt mean the 'negative sense' comment to be implied as coming from you!
21:13:24 <Deewiant> ehird: You're such an asshole most of the time that you don't get to say "x is very offensive"
21:13:39 <pikhq> mycroftiv: And as you went on, your statements made me less confused about what you meant.
21:13:54 <pikhq> Your initial idea was reasonable, and could be an interesting point of discussion.
21:14:00 <pikhq> It got confusing with explanation.
21:14:32 <mycroftiv> pikhq: i agree, and my sense of that is that it becomes very difficult to keep a consistent meaning of terms when you cant establish a shared set of meanings in the conversation
21:14:46 <pikhq> mycroftiv: Undoubtedly.
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21:15:35 <mycroftiv> i try to 'accept' other peoples definitions, and then make statements using *their* terms - to try to 'translate' from my inner representation to whatever language they are speaking, ideologically. its not easy and it makes me seem very inconsistent, because i want to find common terms to communicate with people using any ideology
21:17:02 <mycroftiv> ive noticed however that the very intelligent people that i most want to communicate with usually react like Pthing - something about what im saying 'smells bad' - too much overlap with cranks and flakes
21:17:38 <Pthing> I wouldn't call a nation of a billion souls with thousands of years of history "cranks and flakes"
21:17:39 <mycroftiv> Pthing: i apologize, it wasnt meant as criticism of you - just of my own communication habits
21:18:11 <mycroftiv> im saying i talk like a damn lunatic, like the fucking TIMECUBE guy
21:18:23 <Pthing> Like I said, you just come across as like
21:18:29 <Pthing> using big symbols for little reasons
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21:19:37 <mycroftiv> Pthing: ive honestly lost track of where we were before getting (from my perspective) totally off-based by my admittedly sloppy use of 'karma' as an example, was there any thread that was interesting and worth picking up?
21:21:40 <oklopil> ehird_: <mycroftiv> If you disagree with me, you're religious. <<< reversing implications is a deadly sin
21:25:48 <mycroftiv> um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered?
21:26:38 <mycroftiv> i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them?
21:27:20 <oklopil> mycroftiv: Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./ <<< i'm with you on this one; except i guess i'm more in the direction of sex cult
21:30:29 <mycroftiv> do you think the way to find them is by studying pure math, along the analogy of turing machines yielding the procedural/state machine paradigm, church's lambda calculus leading to functional languages, etc?
21:32:20 <mycroftiv> or is the task/application motivated approach, as in how simula was created and led to OO, more likely to provide us with new toolsets? maybe thats an entirely false dichotomy - i guess i was just throwing it out to stimulate discussion
21:32:23 <oklopil> ehird: It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial. <<< when it comes to subjects like this, you could s/#esoteric/a conversation/
21:32:39 <ehird> mycroftiv: dunno. just try shit :P
21:32:53 <mycroftiv> oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing
21:33:24 <mycroftiv> and due to acquiring new evidence of course, not just getting trolled
21:34:19 <mycroftiv> ehird: btw your ideas about a truly persistent OS with unified handling of the data objects etc - i think its absolutely great and would honestly like to help work on such a project, whenever you have it officially rolling
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21:36:33 <oklopil> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923 <<< greatest video ever
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21:38:49 <oklopil> ehird: then how are you you old self? <<< same soul?
21:40:00 <ehird> there is no such thing as a soul
21:40:10 <ehird> mycroftiv: i would like to start working on it soon
21:40:27 <ehird> shame that it's only practical to do it on x86_64
21:40:59 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, as a practical matter - despite the desire to support esoteric platforms - theres really nothing so wrong about that
21:41:05 <pikhq> ehird: Why only on x86_64?
21:41:16 <ehird> pikhq: it's what i have and it's what everyone else has
21:41:23 <pikhq> (aside from that being the most common platform)
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21:41:43 <pikhq> Ah, so that's about it.
21:41:46 <pikhq> Mmkay; that works.
21:42:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: Anyway, it's wrong because it means I have to code according to it, and it really sucks. :)
21:44:40 <ehird> Still, the best computers are all based on it, so what can you do.
21:45:20 <ehird> I wonder how to handle partitioning in such a system; i.e. "SSD for OS, HD for media". Rich types, I guess.
21:45:40 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, there is another approach available! you could create an OS more along the lines of a self-contained platform that abstracts away from the host os/hardware - like Inferno as an example, or (in a lesser way) something like java or smalltalk itself
21:45:49 <ehird> Although I don't think it's worth bothering supporting multiple media persistence because dammit, there's a 1TB SSD for $2k and an 80GB SSD for $250
21:45:58 <ehird> HDs will be dead long before this is worth using
21:46:27 <ehird> mycroftiv: that kinda sucks for using forth at the low level though
21:46:37 <ehird> since it benefits so much from knowing the hardware wel
21:47:12 <mycroftiv> ehird: i agree, i was just offering it as a possibile option because hardware support is such a pain
21:47:37 <ehird> thankfully things like graphics cards don't really matter for a looooong time
21:47:51 <mycroftiv> you probably know a lot of the plan9 stuff has gone/is going in the direction of trying to free ride on the linux kernel to manage the hardware, and tons of developmnet oses take a similar strategy
21:47:57 <ehird> would love to build it on openfirmware or something
21:48:07 <ehird> but afaik the OLPC XO-1 is the only x86 with openfirmware
21:48:14 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah i dislike that
21:48:25 <ehird> you take away one of plan 9's main advantage
21:48:28 <oklopil> ehird: uhh i didn't <<< mycroftiv said a religious guy probably wouldn't agree, maybe you weren't responding to that in particular, or maybe you considered context as well, i just like to see reversed implications and be annoyed by them.
21:48:29 <ehird> the unified system architecture
21:49:02 <mycroftiv> i sorta dislike it but the fact is that human time and energy and resources are limited, and you want to put your time where it does the most good - and if you dont have a large team of devs with hardware skills, hardware can just be a real barrier
21:50:08 <ehird> But if I wanted to compromise, I'd build it on unix
21:50:13 <ehird> Dammit, I should stop making errors.
21:50:17 <oklopil> mycroftiv: um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered? <<< yes.
21:50:53 <oklopil> mycroftiv: i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them? <<< i have tons of vague ideas i can't explain!
21:51:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: but really, building this on top of unix would result in… wait for it… Squeak.
21:51:26 <ehird> and you do NOT want anything to result in squeak
21:51:27 <mycroftiv> oklopil: any referent for the ideas, or what existing stuff acts to 'trigger' them, make you say 'what if...'
21:52:19 <ehird> mycroftiv: For context, note that oklopil made a language based on lists of negative nesting (<> is 0, <<a>> is 1, etc) and NOPs.
21:52:20 <mycroftiv> ehird: makes sense, do you have a plan to get started? target a VM specification, or a particular given 'generic' hardware spec?
21:52:47 <ehird> Also, the regular thing: support the standard x86_64/BIOS stuff, because differing drivers won't be neccessary until much later.
21:54:11 <oklopil> mycroftiv: oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing <<< i'm not saying you can't change your mind about things due to conversations, yes, but what i said isn't even that much of an oversimplication, people simply suck at having conversations ime.
21:55:03 <oklopil> people are often great at talking though, that's why stuff like books and lectures work, because people are usually actually listening, unlike when having conversations. then again i am a simplificator, and a crazy person, so what do i know.
21:55:22 <mycroftiv> oklopil: sure, i really do try to 'swear off' the debates about politics/religion/ethics and keep my time and energy focused on translating my ideas into 'real things' like software and music and essays
21:55:54 <mycroftiv> obviously though the resolution to 'not get dragged into trying to explain my private mapping of the universe' is something i constantly fail though
21:56:18 <ehird> it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory.
21:56:24 <oklopil> ehird: there is no such thing as a soul <<< believing in the soul is, ime, one of the simplest religious beliefs you can obtain, because of all the consciousness. but i was mostly joking.
21:56:53 <mycroftiv> ehird: you have a crazy unifying theory, you are just smart and you keep it limited to a single domain you are expert in
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21:58:26 <ehird> oklopil: yeah but i was rebutting it as a religious belief
21:58:31 <ehird> justifying it with another isn't terribly convincing
21:58:50 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'm really not certain I'd call myself an expert.
21:59:07 <ehird> my last OS failed because i couldn't fuckin' get interrupts set up
21:59:35 <oklopil> ehird: it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory. <<< my crazy unifying theory is mostly ignoring the problem.
21:59:38 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i honestly have no way at this point of really assessing your expertise, but im happy to give you the benefit of the doubt - and based on the satement you just said 'my last os failed' - that certainly qualities as 'expert' given that most people dont have a 'last os'
21:59:53 <ehird> mycroftiv: it's all relative, though
22:00:05 <ehird> making some code that can be booted by grub isn't exactly an odd thing for this channel
22:00:59 <oklopil> a friend of mine just finished writing the network card drivers for his os
22:01:12 <ehird> grub is incidentally not allowed in my os
22:01:13 <mycroftiv> ehird: yes, but the point i was making wasnt about how great you are, but just that you certainly have at least the expertise required for your ideas (your 'crazy theory' of how an os should work) to be meaningful
22:01:14 <oklopil> same guy couldn't solve the int(n/m) problem, grrr
22:01:29 <ehird> mycroftiv: i'd call that knowledge, not expertise
22:01:36 <ehird> i generally reserve that for... well... experts
22:01:49 <mycroftiv> i can tell this is a damn language channel, you guys are fucking crazy for precise definitions\
22:02:43 <mycroftiv> i cant string 5 words together in a sequence without subjecting at least one of them to a highly metaphorical and nonstandard use
22:03:10 <oklopil> mycroftiv: some of the ideas i can explain are my graph definition language (which is more of a useless DSL), and Ef, which was based on taking fixed points of every function
22:03:11 <ehird> that's not my problem :P
22:03:53 <oklopil> the graph thing, graphica, is my personal favorite; but Ef is, in some sense, a completely new paradigm
22:04:13 <mycroftiv> oklopil: those both sound very interesting, im not sure how you build a language from 'fixed points of every function' - but thats my ignorance, id love to learn, got any references to check out?
22:04:30 <ehird> mycroftiv: don't worry, it's not your ignorance
22:04:40 <ehird> nobody understands oklopil's languages for the first few days
22:04:47 <oklopil> mycroftiv: the basic idea is pattern matching on problems, then imperatively changing them.
22:04:54 <oklopil> imperatively as in statefully
22:05:14 <ehird> it's nothing like that fwiw
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22:06:49 <oklopil> ehird: what's not what? :P
22:07:35 <oklopil> this is the canonical sort, sort={x:_;y:_;?x<?y&x>y=>[x y]=[y x]}; not sure what sort that is exactly, you find pairs that should be the other way around, and swap them
22:08:01 <pikhq> That looks like bubblesort.
22:08:23 <mycroftiv> ok, i see whats going on with statement, looks neat
22:08:23 <oklopil> yeah, except it's nondeterministic
22:08:39 <oklopil> a sensible compilation would be bubblesort, or something along those lines
22:09:00 <oklopil> mycroftiv: basically a normal form of executing that on a list is taken
22:09:05 <pikhq> It could also quite reasonably become a sorting network. :P
22:09:21 <oklopil> pikhq: yes, very parallelizable!
22:09:33 <oklopil> wait sorting network right
22:09:40 <oklopil> kinda misunderstood you there.
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22:10:48 <pikhq> Accidentally upside-down ?
22:11:20 <oklopil> mycroftiv: [x y]=[y x] has to do with ef's completely insane value/reference semantics, which have nothing to do with the fixed point and pattern matching stuff
22:11:35 <oklopil> i tend to reinvent everything from scratch when i make a new language
22:12:00 <oklopil> except a few things i consider fundamental enough to use without rethinking, like lists
22:12:36 <ehird> oklopil: replace lists with sorting networks that sort things to that list's structure
22:12:42 <ehird> and encode the values in this structure
22:14:06 <oklopil> i'm almost incompletely not unsure what you mean
22:14:54 <ehird> oklopil: basically, the idea is that everything is a sorting network
22:15:01 <ehird> in this case, if we have a list 1:2:3:[]
22:15:09 <ehird> then we encode the 1 in the way it resorts
22:15:18 <ehird> and then encode 2:3:[], "wrapping" each element of its encoding
22:15:19 <ehird> to show that it's the tail
22:15:25 <ehird> recursively, then using a sentinel sorting pattern for []
22:15:33 <ehird> and thus, to operate on lists we make special lists ourselves for them
22:15:36 <ehird> and run it on them
22:15:42 <ehird> and check the results
22:15:48 <ehird> so, everything's a sorting network that sorts other sorting networks
22:16:36 <oklopil> anyway mycroftiv there's a lot of unused esolang material in mathematics already, many fun models of computation haven't really gotten famous enough to have been esolangified.
22:16:57 <mycroftiv> if theres a lot of available formalisms that dont have languages matches to them
22:17:39 <oklopil> i don't know of that many, but this is what an esolang professor told me at uni
22:18:05 <oklopil> for instance matrix multiplication is tc
22:18:53 <oklopil> well he does computation model stuff, so yeah :P
22:19:25 <oklopil> ehird: basically you can do tm's by walking up and down a real number's digits
22:19:34 <ehird> i thought you hated reals
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22:20:16 <oklopil> also he had some results about reversibility of certain ca's
22:20:35 <oklopil> and i was like can i have your autograph
22:20:41 <ehird> oklopil: you said they're too numbery
22:20:43 <oklopil> well not out loud but anyway
22:20:59 <oklopil> oh, well yeah i hate *instances* of real numbers :P
22:21:15 <oklopil> i enjoy the structure of the field though.
22:22:55 <oklopil> how is that a lolling matter
22:23:12 <oklopil> it's a pretty fucking sexy field
22:24:03 <ehird> hating instances of it
22:24:10 <ehird> anyway as we all know reals are continued fractions.
22:24:17 <ehird> anything else is satan
22:24:28 <mycroftiv> since we are speaking about the real numbers - transfinite math, do we have any computer languages currently that can work correctly with the transfinite ordinals and other stuff like that from set theory?
22:25:55 <pikhq> mycroftiv: That depends: are the operations you want on them computable?
22:26:11 <pikhq> If so, then we have plenty. The usage of them may just be very hard.
22:27:17 <mycroftiv> pikhq: questions about the computability of operations on infinite sets are sadly over my head, im at the level of understanding the continuum hypothesis and the diagonal slash argument and the concept of a power set and all that, but my curiousity stems largely from wishing there was computer software i could work with that would teach me more
22:27:55 <pikhq> Probably Mathematica.
22:28:12 <oklopil> by the diagonal slash arg do you mean the proof that |reals| > |ints|
22:28:19 <mycroftiv> wish i had access to that software, ever. thats what drove me to become a free software user and developer
22:28:47 <mycroftiv> oklopil: that is one of the most famous applications of it, but of course 'diagonal' type arguments show up everywhere, godel as well for instance, but i suspect you know all this better than i do
22:31:00 <oklopil> i just know one diagonalization argument
22:31:44 <mycroftiv> oklopil: yeah, the reals > ints is probably the most famous one, and the direct reference i was referring to.
22:32:13 <mycroftiv> but the form of that argument is amazingly powerful and has become very much a 'standard tool' of proof in a lot of areas
22:33:17 <oklopil> probably, i really don't know much about anything but basic algebra, and cs-related
22:34:04 <oklopil> anyway diagonalization is a pretty simple proof by contradiction
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22:34:19 <oklopil> what's interesting about power sets exactly?
22:34:35 <mycroftiv> well, that is how the chain of transfinite numbers is generated
22:35:18 <oklopil> i just don't think it's a good starting place for expanding your mathematical brain
22:36:13 <mycroftiv> well, i wouldnt call it a starting place, ive been studying math for a long time now even though im not particularly good at it really
22:36:27 <mycroftiv> but since actually understanding all the math in modern physics is important to me, i keep working at it
22:36:57 <mycroftiv> hmm, i think physics is 100% as interesting as the universe itself ;D
22:37:04 <mycroftiv> sex is interesting because physics FEELS GOOD
22:37:11 <oklopil> the universe is pretty boring :P
22:37:48 <oklopil> i'm more interested in pure, simplified universes
22:38:37 <mycroftiv> oklopil: well, for all we know, at the lowest level, our universe might a rule 110 machine...we dont know what the little elves turning the cranks are up to in that regard quite yet
22:38:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: Nice try, Wolfram.
22:39:37 <mycroftiv> ehird: wolfram didnt invent those ideas, people have been speculating that the universe is just a computation since newton
22:40:20 <mycroftiv> *shrug* simple and cool example, back when i was talking about this stuff in the late 80s, i would have said 'the universe is like the mandelbrot set'
22:41:58 <oklopil> the mandelbrot set is much less discrete computation -y
22:42:04 <ehird> i get the impression that you're like 40
22:42:26 <oklopil> ehird: you didn't get that impression before thsi?
22:42:32 <ehird> oklopil: well i did it was just forming
22:42:39 <mycroftiv> oklopil: yes, actually the question of discrete vs fractal/continuous is really important when trying to make a model that is more meaningful than just metaphor
22:42:45 <mycroftiv> (which btw i dont think anyone has actually done!)
22:42:59 <ehird> i guess when intelligence's brain cells die they excrete crazy :D
22:43:39 <mycroftiv> ehird: i used to be much crazier, i decided quite awhile ago i had to try to work much more within the pure science/math domain to get anywhere
22:43:52 <ehird> uhh i am GLAD you didn't come here then
22:44:03 <ehird> cuz you're pushing new boundaries in #esoteric craziness :P
22:44:57 <oklopil> i don't find him all that crazy, maybe i'm too crazy to notice it
22:45:06 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i still havent managed to syncrhonize myself with the prevailing discourse, i was early figuring the 'lets slag on religion thing' was an easy way of expressing certain ideas, but that was a mistake, i got called on it rightly
22:45:45 <mycroftiv> so then i end up trying to prove that im not a hater-of-religion, which ends up making me seem very incosistent suddenly - even though i think religious symbolism and ritual is orthogonal to public economic policy, which i thought was teh topic
22:45:47 <ehird> i wasn't really interested in the anti-religion stuff because i pretty much exhausted all the realisations with regards to it like a year ago
22:46:10 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah, that was my mistake in how i was situating my statements - i thought the kids today were all into that dawkins-hitchens perspective
22:46:23 <ehird> hitchens is kind of a dick.
22:46:28 <ehird> dawkin's ok though.
22:46:35 <ehird> *dawkins', whatever
22:46:44 <ehird> but i don't think there's many kids in here really
22:46:58 <mycroftiv> well, if you actually want to *convince* people, i think they are just preaching to the choir and alienating the people they are trying to persuade, actually
22:47:10 <mycroftiv> ehird: i meant that purely as a joke use of language
22:47:32 <ehird> I've been an atheist since like 9 and an agnostic since forever
22:47:34 <oklopil> also there are tons of kids here
22:47:38 <ehird> although really, I basically just never considered that god might exist
22:47:45 <ehird> i wasn't ever exposed to the concept, really
22:47:56 <ehird> but I still found The God Delusion a good book
22:48:06 <ehird> it helped explain to me why religion was so prevalent
22:48:14 <ehird> dawkins has plenty of non-anti-religion books anyway
22:48:14 <mycroftiv> ehird: one of the reasons i can be frustrating to communicate with is that i believe language is a map and i try to figure out what map the person i am talking to is using, and then speak using its landmarks
22:48:34 <ehird> Unweaving the Rainbow is still basically anti-supersitition, but it's mainly about how beauty can come out of analysis and how coincidences really do exist
22:48:54 <ehird> mycroftiv: you can't subvert biases by using different words unless you're really effective at it imo
22:49:53 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah i produce the opposite results sometimes, because of the inconsistency issue and trying to communicate with multiple people at once
22:50:42 <mycroftiv> if im trying to talk to someone who believes in stuff like esp and ufos and that i think is 'confused', i can sound like im failing to actually maintain my beliefs because im not contradicting ideas that i think are 'confused' (== wrong)
22:50:50 <ehird> i don't argue with cranks
22:51:09 <mycroftiv> i work very, very hard on not being one
22:51:17 <mycroftiv> thats why hard science and math are where i try to situate myself now
22:51:30 <ehird> quantum darwinism man :)
22:51:34 <ehird> (yeah yeah I know)
22:51:39 <ehird> (I just love hatin' on that name)
22:52:14 <mycroftiv> ehird: ...yeah it makes me grit my teeth too, the thing is zurek keeps trying to come up with a name since he realizes people just dont understand the significance, even if they agree with his work.
22:52:24 <mycroftiv> his old term was 'the existential interpretation' which meant nothing
22:52:40 <ehird> I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important
22:52:45 <mycroftiv> 'decoherence' is still the most used term for the basics of his approach, but hes advanced a long way past the simple...
22:53:15 <ehird> It's the more "correct"/"possible" universes traveling forwards in the dimension of time, right?
22:53:17 <mycroftiv> ehird: that was my guess as to the psychology of his changing his terminology, please dont confuse my random bs with what the man actually says
22:53:19 <ehird> and the less suitable ones not being able to
22:53:37 <coppro> if you want to see a wacky theory, see my Oracularity that got digested (no, it's not a serious theory)
22:53:49 <mycroftiv> ehird: its specifically based on the actual math of the quantum equations that 'everyone' agrees with, and actually studying how information is transmitted between systems through time.
22:53:51 <ehird> I'd call it something like "spatial decoherence" since it's moving forwards in time to get a chance at space. It's not a terribly meaningful name, but it sounds okay.
22:54:24 <mycroftiv> so the idea is that 'classical' type information, where the ball bounces off the wall, is far more likely to sucessfully transmit than the information that matches the ball going through the wall
22:54:34 <mycroftiv> (im oversimplifying deliberately to the pop sci level)
22:54:41 <mycroftiv> (not because i think you need it, just to speak quickly)
22:54:41 <ehird> pop sci level is a good way to get a good name though
22:55:16 <ehird> From what you're saying I basically gather that it's: more classically probable information has a better chance of moving forwards in time to affect space
22:55:27 <ehird> and the less classical outcomes will lag behind, so to speak
22:55:31 <ehird> again, wildly analogising
22:55:37 <ehird> from that I'd still call it spacial decoherence
22:55:49 <mycroftiv> almost exactly correct - in your statement, you should substitute 'other quantum systems' though for the word 'space'
22:55:51 <oklopil> ehird: I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important <<< iirc the cross product was considered like the final salvation by its inventor
22:56:10 <ehird> the cross product isn't exactly a theory :P
22:56:28 <oklopil> well no, that was more of a random piece of funny information.
22:56:44 <ehird> mycroftiv: yes but that gives quantum decoherence.
22:56:45 <mycroftiv> i think zurek believes (correctly) that his work has mostly resolved the 'quantum measurement problem' and paradoxes like schrodinger's cat. his work is real science, its hard math, it can be tested by experiment also. so his opinion i dont think is relevant to evaluating it.
22:56:50 <ehird> which is taken, I gather :D
22:56:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: zurek's work IS quantum decoherence!@
22:57:05 <mycroftiv> he is one of the guys who is responsible for a huge amount of that work!
22:57:12 <ehird> mycroftiv: I don't accept your claim that quantum darwinism objectively true
22:57:22 <ehird> and plenty of people accept decoherence but don't, afaik, subscribe to this interpretation
22:57:28 <mycroftiv> ehird: it can be objectively tested and verified with standard mathematical analysis and experimentation
22:57:29 <ehird> so it only makes sense to separate them
22:57:32 <ehird> mycroftiv: so you keep saying
22:57:44 <ehird> people disagree with you, so we don't simply call it "the truth"
22:57:51 <mycroftiv> ehird: yes, "QD" is the name zurek gives to his more recent work that extends the decoherent paradigm
22:58:08 <mycroftiv> ehird: sorry if i was seeming to state things non-carefully, let me translate the language:
22:59:16 <mycroftiv> "within the current dominant paradigm casually referred to as western science, the principles of quantum mechanics are widely accepted. zurek is a mainstream practitioner who's work is mostly done via pure mathematical manipulation, so his results are widely accepted as valid. it is only a model, and more study and data are needed, because it is a relatively new model."
22:59:35 <mycroftiv> did all of that make it to channel or was it too long?
23:00:10 <mycroftiv> i personally think that a lot of the information in a careful statement like that can 'go without saying' between people who mutually understand the principles of the scientific method
23:00:48 <mycroftiv> so i apologize if i seem to make statements that should be made carefully about models, predictions, and 'best current explanation of data' - and state them in the language of fact, etc.
23:01:07 <ehird> i've never heard of quantum darwinism being accepted, though
23:01:16 <ehird> its wikipedia article is small and you're the first i've heard of it
23:01:21 <ehird> and all your links are from arxiv
23:01:27 <ehird> it doesn't seem like something every physicist accepts
23:01:38 <ehird> from what i've seen most of them go for copenhagen
23:02:53 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i dunno, i think you are mistaken on this. i think if you actually talked to the mainstream university tenured scientists who are expert on this issue, they would have the highest praise for zurek's work, and say that he has made amazing factual contributions to our understanding
23:03:12 <ehird> i'm just skeptical
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23:03:27 <mycroftiv> his papers are widely cited, and the people who are actually spending tons of money on quantum computing are basing their engineering efforts on the theorems he has been part of proving
23:04:59 <ehird> the d-wave blog mostly makes reference to MWI
23:05:06 <ehird> at least what i've read
23:05:14 <ehird> and d-wave seem to be the main name in actually making quantum computers
23:05:51 <mycroftiv> the work of zurek's that is directly related to quantum computing is not QD, its his work on quantum computation/informatino theory and entropy etc
23:06:24 <ehird> D-Wave has been heavily criticized by some scientists in the quantum computing field. According to Scott Aaronson, a Computer Science professor at MIT who specializes in the theory of quantum computing, D-Wave's demonstration did not prove anything about the workings of the computer. He claimed a useful quantum computer would require a huge breakthrough in physics, which has not been published or shared with the physics community.[1] Dr. Aaronson has mainta
23:06:25 <mycroftiv> also, the fact i link stuff from arxiv doesnt mean that those arent the preprints of papers that were published in major journals with peer review
23:06:53 <ehird> Umesh Vazirani, a professor at UC Berkeley and one of the founders of quantum complexity theory, made the following criticism:[2]
23:06:53 <ehird> "Their claimed speedup over classical algorithms appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a paper my colleagues van Dam, Mosca and I wrote on “The power of adiabatic quantum computing”. That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand, and therefore D-Wave’s “quantum computer” even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell ph
23:06:54 <ehird> Wim van Dam, a professor at UC Santa Barbara, summarized the current scientific community consensus in the journal Nature:[12]
23:06:55 <ehird> "At the moment it is impossible to say if D-Wave's quantum computer is intrinsically equivalent to a classical computer or not. So until more is known about their error rates, caveat emptor is the least one can say."
23:07:25 <mycroftiv> yeah i was gonna question the relevance of the 'd-wave blog' for anything, but since i havent read it, i dont have an opinion :)
23:07:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: d-wave seemed reputable enough to me
23:07:54 <ehird> i saw a lot of sane-seeming pepole say "yay" about it
23:07:58 <ehird> they've got in newspapers
23:08:00 <mycroftiv> i said i have zero opinion! ive never read i! :)
23:08:05 <ehird> and the blog seemed sincere and honest
23:08:07 <ehird> mycroftiv: yeah just saying
23:08:17 <ehird> i wasn't reading some random kid's blog about his supposedly quantum computers :P
23:08:37 <Slereah_> It's made of particles and shit
23:09:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: anyway, copenhagen isnt an explanation of how the classical world results from the quantum - its a model that says 'we dont have to worry about it' - every physicist agrees that if you accept quantum theory as real, you have to explain ultimately (in ways copenhagen doesnt) the entire system of experimenter/appartus/subject as quantum
23:09:46 <mycroftiv> and the mainstream model of that currently is definitely the decoherent paradigm
23:10:05 <mycroftiv> of which zurek has been a leading researcher, and QD represents the 'state of the art' of his research on this topic
23:10:27 <mycroftiv> if quantum mechanics isnt 'really fundamental' we can obviously throw it right out
23:10:47 <mycroftiv> or if further experiments on the transition between the quantum and the classical scale contradict its predictions
23:13:28 <mycroftiv> QD is nothing more than a certain model that seems to do well at showing that we dont actually need 'new physics' to explain the appearance of the 'classical world' - it actually *does* emerge properly, just from the current known quantum equations
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23:15:58 <mycroftiv> ehird: i think the fact that its not famous or well known yet (or may ever be) is because it isnt challenging or overturning anything - its basically saying that the current equations we have work even better than we had thought! and for working physicists the 'measurement problem' has never been a really huge concern anyway, since experiments DO work as a practical matter
23:17:28 <mycroftiv> a lot of the value of zurek's work is actually that it powerfully *rebuts* people who want to find some kind of 'magic' in quantum theory they can use to make telepathy or other such pseudoscience plausible
23:19:50 <mycroftiv> his work strongly suggests that all of the 'weird' behaviors of quantum mechanics are unlikely to create any macro-scale 'loopholes' that we can exploit.
23:24:04 <mycroftiv> speaking purely for myself, from my reading of zurek's work, i think it actually implies that we arent likely to get a good quantum computer anytime soon, because the orthogonal basis states it depends on are just so hard to maintain
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23:41:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: well there are quantum computers, just near-0k ones
23:41:52 <ehird> and i don't mean price :D
23:42:04 <mycroftiv> yeah, its the scaling up to many qubits thats hard
23:42:05 <ehird> but a few qubits aren't exactly useful
23:42:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: it sort of depresses me that quantum physics DOESN'T let us do freaky stuff :)
23:42:31 <mycroftiv> and thats where the 'nature doesnt like to maintain superpositions' problem kicks in - i have a theory that theres probably a catch 22 at work
23:43:16 <mycroftiv> the amount of energy required to create the conditions to maintain the necessary number of qubits could probably do 'just as much' computation on their own if pumped into old fashioned chips rather than maintaining a coherent apparatus for the quantum superpositions
23:43:37 <mycroftiv> that might turn out to be a kind of implication of the 2nd law
23:44:16 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah i remember reading pop sci stuff about 'tachyons that go back in time' and being very disappointed i couldnt buy a tachyon telephone and that they didnt actually exist anyway
23:46:11 <ehird> my personal pet physics-wish is that we can send information across everett branches
23:46:24 <ehird> = inter-universe communication
23:47:42 <ehird> there's not really any evidence or theories at all on that one
23:48:07 <ehird> of course quantum darwinism probably says all the fun universe's genes will have gone extinct :D
23:49:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: amirite
23:50:36 <mycroftiv> ehird: its hard to say...if you could create an environment (such as quantum computing tries to) where stuff wasnt constantly transmitting information back and forth, then maybe the evolution of the state would be different
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23:51:19 <ehird> cross-everett-branch communication only works in the purest form of MWI
23:51:25 <ehird> i.e., each quantum event truly does split the universe in two
23:51:34 <ehird> and there are literal, existing, multiple universes
23:52:58 <mycroftiv> id have to look at some mathematics, but how does transmitting information between everett branches avoid violations of the laws of thermodynamics?
23:53:31 <ehird> as far as i know it doesn't.
23:53:44 <ehird> entropy never decreasing is a statistical law anyway isn't it
23:53:50 <ehird> i.e. the probabability of entropy decreasing is 0
23:53:55 <ehird> doesn't mean it's impossible
23:54:31 <mycroftiv> ehird: aha! well, this is very interesting...this goes to the heart of the issues - because a lot of zurek's work is devoted to showing that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is the direct consequence of the conservation laws that apply to quantum interactions
23:54:58 <ehird> but zurek's work doesn't even have literal multiple universes as i understand it
23:55:06 <ehird> so we have to ignore it to even consider this communication
23:55:40 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, i think thats debatable, because 'multiple universes' is mostly a semantic/philosophical level interpretation of what sets of equations 'mean' more than a mathematical statement itself in this case
23:56:00 <mycroftiv> ehird: you could say in many ways that zurek's work is 'all about' studying the multiple universes and exactly how/if they can interact perhaps
23:56:13 <mycroftiv> i know that zurek himself places his work in the tradition of that school of interpretation
23:56:26 <ehird> it would be cool, anyway
23:56:26 <mycroftiv> (working from the MWI idea of 'taking the equations seriously and literally')
23:56:31 <ehird> especially if it violates thermodynamics
23:56:36 <ehird> i want my extra energy, bitch
23:57:26 <ehird> in fact i'd find it incredibly depressing if entropy can truly never decrease
23:57:39 <ehird> i kind of like the universe and life and such.
23:57:48 <ehird> Slereah_: Yes, it just has probability 0, etc, se ↑↑↑
23:58:02 <ehird> Slereah_: Anyway, what interpretation do you subscribe to? I'm sure I asked before.
23:58:14 <Slereah_> ehird : I'm an instrumentalist
23:58:25 <Slereah_> That is, I consider physics as a tool
23:58:40 <ehird> Slereah_: That's not a quantum interpretation :P
23:58:40 <Slereah_> So I don't care too much about the metaphysical truth behind
23:58:50 <ehird> I mean Copenhagen/MWI/blah balh blah.
23:58:52 <Slereah_> If there's a way to differentiate the two, why not
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23:59:27 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level
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23:59:43 <mycroftiv> Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level
23:59:43 <ehird> 23:59] mycroftiv: Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level
23:59:44 <ehird> [23:59] ehird: Tooooo late
23:59:44 <ehird> [23:59] mycroftiv: bah!
23:59:44 <ehird> [23:59] ehird: He'll be back.
23:59:53 <ehird> (You guys all understand regexps, right? :P)