00:00:24 <mycroftiv> of course, i practically speak (*$%|*(#$&*/#*($&\/\#(*$ as my native language
00:01:48 <ehird> mycroftiv: Oh so witty
00:01:52 <ehird> Perl is line noise amirite
00:02:12 <mycroftiv> you know the defintion of unix, right? "40 defintions of regexp living under one roof"
00:02:44 <ehird> never understood why there wasn't a standard regex toolset for unix
00:02:54 <ehird> it's the obvious thing to do from the start
00:03:03 <mycroftiv> same reason we have more than one programming language in the world and more than one use of symbols in computers in general
00:03:13 <mycroftiv> people like to make their own thing
00:03:35 <ehird> mycroftiv: but Ken Thompson did it!
00:03:45 <ehird> unix philosophy! they actually used it those days
00:03:47 <ehird> so why not for regexp?
00:04:13 <ehird> I'm very much in favour of the operating system providing a whole lot though
00:04:34 <ehird> (Arguably bloat, but I don't separate the operating system and the programs on top, so.)
00:04:42 <mycroftiv> i think the distinction between OS and software is something we should get beyond anyway
00:04:57 <ehird> my OS is object-based
00:05:05 <mycroftiv> i fight with plan9 people about this a lot, because i think they dont even understand their own os or its concepts really
00:05:14 <ehird> intelligent objects with methods to manipulate and transform them, plus extra methods that make a visualisation of that object and provide a UI to manipulate it
00:05:27 <ehird> you'd be hard-pressed to sell any "software" for it
00:05:38 <ehird> "Adobe bitmap image editing components 7.0!"
00:07:14 <mycroftiv> hmm, how do your provide visualization and UI for objects in a 'universal' way? how do you avoid having specific software tools to work with specific types of objects?
00:07:53 <oklopil> maybe not so much avoid as discourage
00:08:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: because you don't give a tool object the object to work on
00:08:26 <ehird> you ask the object for an interface
00:08:29 -!- jix has joined.
00:08:38 <ehird> the emphasis is very much on communicating with smart objects
00:08:53 <ehird> and tools don't contain their behaviour, really
00:08:59 <ehird> the interface just asks the object directly
00:09:02 <ehird> and you add stuff to the object
00:09:04 <ehird> sure, you CAN do a tool
00:09:06 <ehird> but it'd be awkward
00:09:07 <mycroftiv> oh, well, in that case the mapping simply places the traditional software/UI component inside the object, sure
00:09:12 <ehird> and be really hard to start etc
00:09:21 <ehird> mycroftiv: well, there are extensible interfaces ofc
00:09:43 <ehird> but at the end of it, you're clicking something that modifies an object it's showing, yes.
00:09:49 <mycroftiv> so what is paradigm for 'shifting' data as content between different interfaces?
00:09:56 <ehird> but the workflow differs
00:10:03 <ehird> mycroftiv: well, when you ask the object for an interface
00:10:07 <ehird> it gives you an appropriate interface object
00:10:12 <ehird> and that interface obviously contains the object
00:10:17 <ehird> just grab the object from the interface
00:10:20 <ehird> and ask it for another interface
00:10:24 <ehird> non-destructive updates
00:10:27 <ehird> if you flip an image in a UI
00:10:28 <mycroftiv> can it attach to and make use of interface components/tools located in other objects?
00:10:29 <ehird> it doesn't change the image
00:10:32 <ehird> it just updates the image in the interface
00:10:42 <ehird> and manipulate that flipped image
00:10:45 <ehird> link the two images together
00:10:49 <ehird> and manipulate the image as you work
00:11:01 <ehird> have an inverted image of another interface's image
00:11:03 <ehird> scale the image in the latter
00:11:07 <ehird> and it updates the inverted image
00:12:33 <mycroftiv> yeah, im thinking about how to translate various tasks from the traditional model to this model
00:13:00 <ehird> i don't really have specific things fleshed out
00:13:06 <ehird> but the general model seems sound
00:13:18 <ehird> you have to be careful about where you place your object in the abstraction layer tho
00:13:25 <mycroftiv> so - old model - i have (your favorite!) a text file - i can bring the data from that text file into a 'word processor' app to do various font/formatting stuff, or i can bring that text data into my 'rpg game creator' environment to use as a message on the wall the player can read
00:13:27 <ehird> e.g. (webPage browser) isn't acceptable
00:13:32 <ehird> because you have cookies and the like
00:13:49 <ehird> mycroftiv: ok, lemme give that a shot
00:13:53 <mycroftiv> now, in the new model - the base object of the content can provide me a 'word processor like interface' by making use of that module, right?
00:14:17 <ehird> You bring up your text object, which brings up the default interface, which has the ability to switch to other interfaces.
00:14:26 <ehird> First you might convert it to rich text, say.
00:14:40 <ehird> You select your desired interface, and do font/formatting stuff like usual.
00:14:54 <ehird> PlainText>>awesomeWordProcessorInterface
00:14:59 <ehird> with the source being like
00:15:14 <ehird> self interfaceUsing: [ AwesomeWordProcessor new with: self ]
00:15:25 <ehird> so, you have that rich text
00:15:32 <ehird> and you extract the object from it
00:15:35 <mycroftiv> so if i want to 'connect' the interface of the basically textual object to the object that is game/game-dev like, the text object 'imports a component' from the game/dev object to allow the interfaces to interact? (typed this while reading your explanation btw)
00:15:40 <ehird> now, in your RPG creator
00:15:51 <ehird> you plug in that object in to the "message on wall" fied
00:16:00 <ehird> if you plugged it in directly from the word processor without copying
00:16:03 <ehird> then you can edit in the word processor
00:16:06 <ehird> and it edits in the rpg
00:16:07 <mycroftiv> ok, yeah, i think i see how it can be modelled and work within the context youve described
00:16:09 <ehird> if you copy it like usual
00:16:12 <ehird> then it's a snapshot in time
00:16:33 <ehird> mycroftiv: generally there's not too much separate interface interaction, since that just leads to "app"-specific hell
00:16:40 <ehird> you generally operate directly with the objects
00:16:45 <mycroftiv> yeah, im trying to 'think my way out' of the paradigm
00:16:55 <ehird> but yeah, you could absolutely stick two interfaces together and tell them to talk
00:16:57 <ehird> if they know the other
00:17:09 <mycroftiv> thinking as a hypothetical user working with the hypoethetically existent system and trying to visualize what is im doing
00:17:23 <ehird> well i'm speaking in vague things like extracting the object because i haven't got on to the actual ui work
00:17:28 <ehird> so i don't know how exactly you'd go about that
00:18:47 <ehird> mycroftiv: one thing I'm totally unsure on is how to go about versioning every change of everything
00:18:51 <ehird> i don't want to eat up disk
00:18:57 <mycroftiv> since you are pursuing a kind of 'vision of purity' i would say as your design work continues you should make sure to create some imaginary user interfaces as you go
00:18:59 <ehird> but i hate not being able to undo
00:19:44 <mycroftiv> ehird: well, cant you still have the fundamentals of persistence but still be smart about 'delayed writes' to the actual disk?
00:19:54 <ehird> oh, that's handled in the persistence layer
00:20:02 <ehird> the point is that if you track every single atomic change to every single object
00:20:09 <ehird> your 2TB disk fills up uncannily quickly
00:20:26 <mycroftiv> ehird: no, i dont think it does if you use deduplication down in that persistence layer probably
00:20:38 <mycroftiv> but i think youd be surprised how much deduplicative storage can gain you in that regard
00:20:47 <ehird> I don't know what that is; I'll look it up
00:21:06 <mycroftiv> duplicate data blocks get stored as a pointer reference to the existing data block, not as a new redundant copy
00:21:08 <ehird> mycroftiv: basically diff.
00:21:12 <ehird> what hardlink backups do
00:21:23 <ehird> any time you see an unchanged file, make it a hardlink instead
00:21:33 <ehird> except more fine-grained
00:21:39 <mycroftiv> right, its that kind of thing, but dedup data storage yeah is block level
00:21:49 <mycroftiv> and for your system, you want to do something like 'rabin fingerprinting' i think
00:22:10 <mycroftiv> this is all your low level technical stuff to make your persistence concepts not actually kill your real world disks
00:22:21 <mycroftiv> as you correctly saw the need to anticipate
00:23:13 <ehird> yeah thankfully i can skimp on that at first
00:23:19 <mycroftiv> but i think you dont actually need to worry too much is what im saying
00:23:23 <ehird> due to my test objects being measured in kilobytes of text :P
00:23:32 <mycroftiv> your idea of total persistence and versioning of everything - i think its actually real world practical
00:23:34 <ehird> definitely though something like an HD video editor will want to throw away data a lot
00:23:36 <GregorR-L> Things from Napoli are called Neopolitan (in English). I feel they should be called Napoleon. Discuss.
00:23:47 <ehird> because i mean in cases like that
00:23:51 <ehird> actually being able to use it trumps usability
00:23:54 <ehird> if you know what i mean
00:24:31 <mycroftiv> ehird: yeah it seems like being able to say 'ok dont version/make persistent this particular 5 minute video im watching on a porn site' is probably something you want to allow
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00:24:45 <mycroftiv> since you said total freedom for the user is a base design principle
00:24:57 <ehird> I'm more a gnome man than kde
00:25:09 <ehird> so I definitely don't think edgecases need to be accounted for in the interface
00:25:12 <ehird> as opposed to manually telling the object something
00:25:25 <ehird> i.e. you can do anything, it just might not be pretty
00:26:09 <ehird> but that's just a standard UI compromise
00:26:13 <ehird> you could always make a new one for a new purpose
00:26:17 <ehird> and transition your objects over
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00:27:11 <mycroftiv> away for a bit now, thanks for explaining some more of the concepts to me
00:27:43 <mycroftiv> btw is there any name for this other than 'ehird's crazy persistent/versioned/rich object os' ?
00:28:02 <ehird> mycroftiv: hehehe where do i start
00:28:09 <ehird> naming is the hardest part of any project
00:28:19 <ehird> and i totally suck at it
00:28:36 <ehird> let's call it foop or zoop or something for the sake of it
00:28:43 <mycroftiv> sure, just to give it a conventional label
00:29:02 <mycroftiv> i bet if you google though someone has already stolen the foop/zoop namespace for software projects
00:29:11 <ehird> i meant temporarily
00:29:13 <ehird> of course it's taken
00:30:37 <ehird> let's call it bunny.
00:30:41 <ehird> something like that
00:30:55 <mycroftiv> since im already rather involved with a bunny-associated os (insert glenda.jpg)
00:31:48 <mycroftiv> i dont have anything computer related filed though under 'kitten' or kittens mentally
00:32:05 <ehird> I am not using lolcats as a splash screen.
00:32:25 <ehird> (vacuously true in a way; I'm not using any splash screen because in 1-2 seconds after it gets control it's in the state you left it in0
00:32:25 <mycroftiv> good, that means i dont have to commit physical violence if i ever meet you in person :
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00:38:42 <oerjan> <GregorR-L> Things from Napoli are called Neopolitan (in English). I feel they should be called Napoleon. Discuss.
00:39:13 <oerjan> first we need to move Napoli to Corsica. which might be better than next to Vesuvius, anyhow.
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01:00:32 <pikhq> I concur. I want Napoleon ice cream.
01:01:41 <ehird> Shaped like Napoleon!
01:06:04 * oerjan swats Gracenotes for perpetuating the myth -----###
01:07:04 <Gracenotes> people perpetuate myths all the time, don't they? For example, that any Eskimo language has 50 words for snow or something?
01:07:24 <Gracenotes> myths that are an essential part of our cultural discourse
01:07:34 <Gracenotes> don't knock the myth. or napolean ice cream.
01:09:43 <oerjan> "British propaganda depicted Napoleon as much smaller than average height and this image persists. Confusion about his height also results from the difference between the French pouce and British inch.2.71 and 2.54 cm respectively; he was 1.7 metres (5 ft 7 in) tall, average height for the period."
01:10:45 <Gracenotes> dayum they used some crazy units back then. clearly the metric system is superior! </merikan>
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01:19:13 <oerjan> slipping away like that
01:19:39 <oerjan> "RELATED: I'VE INVENTED THE WORST MIXED DRINK EVER." >_<
01:21:16 <ehird> Gracenotes: actually.
01:21:22 <ehird> I've used metric all my life.
01:21:32 <ehird> I recently discovered the joys of the inch. (Shut up that is not an innuendo)
01:23:21 <ehird> Gracenotes: kph vs m/s?
01:23:26 <ehird> Methinks Randall made an ERROR!
01:23:48 <ehird> BEFORE HE FIXES IT
01:23:51 <ehird> HE IS *EVERYWHERE*
01:24:11 <Gracenotes> there are several xkcd sockpuppets in this channel currently
01:24:18 <ehird> for instance, ehird
01:24:27 <ehird> who momentarily patched one of the comics
01:24:30 <ehird> to fuck with everyone
01:24:32 * oerjan swats HackEgo for absence -----###
01:25:04 <oerjan> 5 km/h = 1.38888889 meters / second
01:25:45 <ehird> 7 meters a second?
01:25:56 <ehird> oerjan: also not km
01:26:02 <ehird> `calc 25 kph in meters/second
01:26:04 <ehird> `calc 5 kph in meters/second
01:27:16 <oerjan> kph = km/hour, colloquially
01:27:17 <ehird> who can run 7 meters a second?
01:27:24 <ehird> oerjan: not kilometers?
01:27:29 <ehird> that doesn't make sense as conversion
01:28:35 <ehird> oerjan: also, stfu
01:29:05 <oerjan> See The Fine Understatement
01:30:05 * oerjan learns more about the nasal infix
01:30:20 <oerjan> surprisingly nothing to do with piercing.
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01:53:48 <augur> who told you about the nasal infix?
01:53:52 <augur> someone on isharia linked to that
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04:14:38 <oerjan> <augur> who told you about the nasal infix?
04:14:50 <oerjan> wikipedia's Did You Know section
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08:12:22 <Gracenotes> so. I noticed some behavior in ChatZilla I didn't like. I opened the source jar and modified the JS file with the behavior. I restarted. Now I am content. THAT IS THE POWER OF CHATZILLA (behold)
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09:43:25 <oklopil> err what is the power of chatzille, that it's open source?
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09:55:16 <oklopil> ehird: who can run 7 meters a second? <<< i can
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13:16:42 <Slereah> Do you know how to make the taskbar reappear on windows 7?
13:16:51 <Slereah> Just relaunching Explorer doesn't seem to work
13:17:39 <Slereah> Well, that was my last resort
13:17:43 <ehird> 00:12:22 <Gracenotes> so. I noticed some behavior in ChatZilla I didn't like. I opened the source jar and modified the JS file with the behavior. I restarted. Now I am content. THAT IS THE POWER OF CHATZILLA (behold)
13:17:44 <ehird> lisp machine bitch
13:17:46 <Slereah> But I wondered if there was a simpler way
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13:22:18 <Sgeo> Apparently, I'm only allowed to be on the computer for an hour. My dad said he's going to ask my "grandmother" how long I was on the computer
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13:33:49 <ehird> "just wondering what else can get in thru code reviews. you guys... ah, better not to
13:33:49 <ehird> say anything. such a nice application and now this. there should be more buzz about
13:33:49 <ehird> it to make less people using chromium, such a insecure bullshit, where everybody can
13:33:49 <ehird> commit whatever. today it's creepy face, tomorrow it will be malicious code, nice work."
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13:41:18 <Sgeo> "Well, the problem is that there are minors playing this game and if that type of chat is allowed, maybe only age 18 and over should be allowed."
13:41:26 <Sgeo> http://www.epicmafia.com/forum/thread/1000
13:41:32 <Sgeo> (Might need to login to read)
13:50:38 <ehird> Firstly, who the fuck are these imaginary minors who can't stand "filth"?
13:50:45 <ehird> Secondly, what has this got to do with #esoteric?
13:52:26 <ehird> Sgeo: oh boy "How do you do that? Charge $2 a month payable by credit/debit card."
13:52:40 <Pthing> belly bum bottom balls
13:53:06 <ehird> Cunting fuckshit! That doesn't actually make any sense but it sounds fun.
13:53:18 <ehird> (Cunt isn't a verb, and fuck isn't an adjective.)
13:54:04 <ehird> Pthing: But yes, I'm tragically corrupted due to the evils of the interwebs.
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14:01:45 * Sgeo only swore once on EpicMafia, and that was because my scumbuddies gave me a code to use to let them know the role of the person we killed
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14:45:13 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/05/090531-crapgadgets-01.jpg
14:45:24 <ehird> The ear of a cat usbmomory
15:13:21 <ehird> "As far as Apple is concerned, the Black Hat 2009 hackers conference didn't end soon enough. Having promptly patched the iPhone vulnerability, Cupertino is facing another security hole, this time in its keyboards. A hacker going by the pseudonym of K. Chen has come up with a way, using HIDFirmwareUpdaterTool, to inject malicious code into the keyboard's firmware."
15:13:27 <ehird> 2009: The age of keyboard viruses.
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15:43:04 <oklofok> fuckshit doesn't require fuck to be an adjective though
15:45:30 <ehird> oklofok: does though!
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15:54:48 <oklofok> in fact it requires it not to be an adjective
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16:19:16 <oklofok> hmm indeed. still, a noun is what you'd normally have there, like you know "cockshit".
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16:24:17 <ehird> oklofok: cockshit doesn't make sense though
16:24:20 <ehird> unless it's a neologism
16:24:26 * impomatic wonders if that's the smallest infinite loop
16:24:27 <ehird> hi impomatic, we're talking about the semantics of curses
16:26:55 <ehird> impomatic: it's trivial to prove
16:27:12 <ehird> the only way to branch is via ^
16:27:20 <ehird> so we need, at the minimum, ()^
16:27:27 <ehird> now, what goes inside?
16:27:38 <ehird> which we know needs a ^
16:27:49 <ehird> and we see that this reduces to, infinitely,
16:34:24 <MizardX> ^ul ((0)(1))(~^:S~:S:*a~:*a*~:^):^
16:34:25 <fungot> 101100111100001111111100000000111111111111111100000000000000001111111111111111111111111111111100000000000000000000000000000000111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
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16:36:07 <MizardX> ^ul ((.)(1))(~^:S~:Sa~:*a*~:^):^
16:36:07 <fungot> 1.11.1111.11111111.1111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
16:36:28 <pikhq> Having fun with the un-est of Lambdas?
16:39:36 <MizardX> That's Underload, not Unlambda. :P
16:43:20 <ehird> "I've noticed that as I copy data/install programs on my Laptop, the weight of the Laptop increases."
16:43:29 <ehird> It's all the bits!
16:45:42 <ehird> [[This is a rare error when the overwriting mechanism of the memory banks lead to an overflow of data because it cannot add on and thus super-stack, increasing the weight significantly. While normal weight/file ratio is approximately 0.02 oz/GB, in rare cases such as these, it can go as high as somewhere around 6 oz/GB.
16:45:43 <ehird> One solution is going to the system32 folder (C:\WINDOWS\system32) and deleting certain unnecessary files, but too much tampering may cause permanent changes to your computer.]]
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17:08:18 <ehird> ^ul (*)(~:S( / )S:*~:^):^
17:08:19 <fungot> * / ** / **** / ******** / **************** / ******************************** / **************************************************************** / ******************************************************************************************************************************** / ********************************************* ...too much output!
17:08:28 <ehird> MizardX: I golf you!
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17:11:00 <MizardX> It doesn't get much shorter than that.
17:11:27 <MizardX> The exception being the whitespace.
17:17:29 <ehird> MizardX: No whitespace in mine.
17:17:32 <ehird> That's part of the output.
17:18:03 <fungot> 1.11.1111.11111111.1111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output!
17:18:14 <ehird> Yes, but that's not the same prorgam.
17:22:30 <ehird> *Like or resembling a raptor.
17:23:20 * Sgeo sees proof that the Python documentation people aren't perfect
17:24:56 <ehird> [[But Ninjawords for iPhone suffers one humiliating flaw: it omits all the words deemed “objectionable” by Apple’s App Store reviewers, despite the fact that Ninjawords carries a 17+ rating.
17:24:56 <ehird> Apple censored an English dictionary.]]
17:24:59 <ehird> Jesus fucking christ.
17:25:05 <ehird> I want to throw my iPhone out of the window.
17:25:55 <pikhq> "Do not put the baby in the Dinosaur Comics". Opinions?
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17:26:55 <ehird> pikhq: Needs more funny.
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17:38:58 <ehird> ^ul (*)(~:S(*)*( / )S~:^):^
17:38:58 <fungot> * / ** / *** / **** / ***** / ****** / ******* / ******** / ********* / ********** / *********** / ************ / ************* / ************** / *************** / **************** / ***************** / ****************** / ******************* / ******************** / ********************* / ********************** / ***** ...too much output!
17:39:24 * ehird hacks up a binary counter
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18:21:59 <GregorR-L> ehird: The prgmr system I'm on went kablooie last night and it hasn't been fixed yet.
18:22:11 <GregorR-L> codu.org is being hosted on my home system right now :P
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18:22:44 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Well, I guess it's a good thing codu.org is not absurdly popular? ;P
18:23:09 <ehird> There is no way it can be absurdly popular.
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18:23:19 <GregorR-L> Being linked from qwantz.com = instant popular :P
18:23:22 <pikhq> ehird: Compared with codu.org.
18:23:29 <pikhq> And yes, it was linked from Qwantz.
18:23:32 <ehird> GregorR-L: Like, like, THOUSANDS of hits!
18:24:04 <GregorR-L> That's thousands of people who totally don't want to see "Cannot connect to lonelydino.com"
18:24:07 <ehird> Sorry, I'm just an old fart who TRULY KNOWS WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE #1 ON DIGG AND HAVE /B/ NOTICE.
18:25:19 <GregorR-L> Yeah, well I'm wearing a fuchsia shirt with a gold tie.
18:26:04 <pikhq> I can has in-state tuition now.
18:26:23 <ehird> Oh shit it has hover-over text
18:27:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: All the hover texts suck and you should eliminate them.
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18:46:57 <Azstal> I didn't know about the second hidden text on qwantz.com until recently :(
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18:48:39 <pikhq> Fun fact: Windows does not need the .exe extension to execute a file.
18:49:02 <pikhq> It works at least in NT OSes.
18:49:23 <pikhq> Apparently, it just cares if it's a valid PE file.
18:49:51 <pikhq> So, Cygwin could be built without ".exe" files all over the place.
18:50:35 <Asztal> GregorR: not the RSS title :D
18:50:54 <Asztal> although, I've missed those too since I don't use the RSS feed
18:51:03 <GregorR-L> If it's not the RSS title or the title text, I don't know to what you refer
18:51:33 <Asztal> GregorR-L: Look at the "contact" link in the top row :)
18:52:43 <GregorR-L> Hahaha, what's great is that's actually worded as a message to Ryan.
18:54:07 <ehird> didn't they use to all be in the title
18:54:10 <ehird> with two lines separating them
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19:08:06 <GregorR-L> Well, looks like my backups worked, and Codu2 is totally working, albeit only temporary until prgmr comes back. I'm getting spam again; hooray?
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19:39:17 <olsner> I'm actually always here whenever I'm online
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19:39:23 <oklopol> well i met my neighbor on #proglangdesign, so
19:40:38 <oklopol> i'm on wfg because a guy i know likes to conquer Q'less channels, why are you there?
19:41:05 <ehird> oh #proglangdesign that stupid copy of us
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19:41:17 <olsner> oklopol: oh, so you're one of the evil squatters then
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19:41:34 <olsner> I'm in #wfg because I'm actually involved in it
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19:43:07 <oklopol> olsner: i can probably ask bcz to give you the flags, in care you care
19:43:31 <oklopol> except i need to do something now ->
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20:00:33 <oklopol> olsner: am i to understand you don't negotiate with terrorists?
20:01:18 <ehird> i negotiate with terriers
20:01:35 <ehird> oklopol: anyway how do you "conquer" a channel just cuz it doesn't have a Q
20:01:36 <oklopol> may be kinda boring via irc
20:01:43 <olsner> oklopol: I am not currently engaged in a negotiation, no :P
20:01:47 <oklopol> ehird: you can ask for ops if there are none
20:01:54 <ehird> well that's stoopid
20:02:38 <oklopol> olsner: i'm just asking if the channel is actually important to you, while bcz probably doesn't give a shit, i do.
20:03:13 <ehird> oklopol: your friend sure sounds like a boring person
20:03:25 <ehird> "what should i do" "i know, i'll conquer quakenet channels!"
20:03:53 <olsner> it's just another kind of trolling
20:03:59 <oklopol> err yes, that's the general opinion
20:04:01 <ehird> 90% of trolling is boring
20:04:23 <oklopol> but no, he's not boring, least boring guy i know
20:04:50 <oklopol> probably a fairly bored person though
20:04:55 <ehird> boioioioioioioioiring
20:07:22 <oklopol> anyway that's what quakenet is for, why use it if you're not going to use it right
20:07:35 <ehird> quakenet is just a shoddy efnet
20:07:43 <ehird> efnet is where the anarchy @
20:08:30 <oklopol> i don't know much about efnet
20:09:04 <oklopol> think i've just used it for joining channels like #sex and gathering asl statistics
20:09:15 <ehird> oklopol: efnet's basically entirely anarchy, yeah there are ircops that rule with an iron fist, but that's just part of the game, not any sort of meta rule enforcement
20:09:59 <oklopol> if i understood you correctly, that's exactly how qnet works too, if you takeover a channel, it's yours, the ops don't give a shit
20:10:15 <ehird> oklopol: sure but efnet's anarchy goes beyond that
20:10:24 <ehird> i mean i don't even know if there are network-wide rules but they sure as hell aren't enforced
20:10:41 <ehird> oklopol: because it's just a bunch of servers wantonly connecting to each other and bits being flipped without human regard for just about anything
20:10:44 <ehird> qnet's quite similar
20:10:52 <ehird> so shoddy ripoff either way :D
20:11:38 <oklopol> wantonly has been promoted to your word of the month btw
20:11:50 <ehird> damn did i say wantonly beforehand
20:12:09 <oklopol> you've used it 3 times so that i've seen, i think
20:12:27 <oklopol> which i know because i read it as like "by want-only basis" at first and i was like what
20:12:30 <ehird> i guess you could say that
20:13:16 <oklopol> anyway more watching random stuff ->
20:13:29 <ehird> oklopol: but I'm wantonly beforehanding, amirite
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20:25:29 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s3d1LfjWCI
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20:36:46 <evenant> and he didn't even have to do anything super fancy, i'm a little curious how a* is applied there, i never had thought about that algorithm in terms of say, platforming
20:38:08 <ehird> evenant: yeah it is cool
20:38:12 <ehird> i'm thinking of trying one myself
20:38:17 <ehird> I think a semi-pacifist AI could work well
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20:38:26 <ehird> i.e. optimise for paths that avoid interacting with monsters
20:38:35 -!- augur has joined.
20:38:39 <ehird> i'm pretty sure it's possible to make a perfect ai that works on all solvable mario levels
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20:48:04 <oklopol> how is using a* with that any different from using it with another 2d map
20:49:29 <oklopol> well, it doesn't incorporate moving objects really, but you can easily run a complete search between every frame, so doesn't really matter
20:51:38 <evenant> it isn't, i just never thought of it that way
20:51:46 <pikhq> ehird: Now, if it incorporated the walk-through-walls glitch, I would be impressed.
20:52:11 <oklopol> but i would be impressed if it wasn't completely mario-specific
20:52:28 <pikhq> There's a few ROM-hacked Mario levels that require it.
20:52:31 <ehird> pikhq: it's not the original game
20:52:36 <ehird> it's randomly-generated
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20:54:12 <oklopol> would be fun to do something like that, unfortunately i never managed to read the content of the screen in :P
20:54:19 <pikhq> I wants it to play via NES emulator.
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20:56:23 <oklopol> pikhq: you seem to be interested in trivial and boring stuff, and not very interested in interesting stuff
20:57:18 <pikhq> oklopol: What, I ask, makes you think that?
21:00:32 <oklopol> pikhq: nm, nothing really :D
21:01:09 <pikhq> oklopol: Very well, þen. Þou art full of ſhit. Diſcuß.
21:02:51 <oklopol> i cannot explain what my point was
21:03:01 <oklopol> would require too many words
21:03:35 <pikhq> oklopol: Words are not scarce. :P
21:03:39 <oklopol> well i did, more like didn't notice you there
21:04:46 <oklopol> pikhq: i just didn't find your ideas for how to enhance that thingie very mathematically interesting; i in no way wanted to imply they should be, it was just a complex unfunny joke.
21:05:35 <pikhq> oklopol: It's hackerly interesting, not mathematically.
21:07:11 <nooga> what? (too lazy to check the logs)
21:07:49 <oklopol> nooga: nothing, i just said something that doesn't make sense without a long explanation
21:08:01 <oklopol> which i haven't completely given
21:08:11 <oklopol> and won't. god i'm annoying to talk to
21:09:08 <ehird> you can make hackerly values mathematical, maybe
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22:03:17 <ehird> think I'll start my os soon
22:13:08 <ehird> ugh, that mario ai thing is realtime
22:13:10 <ehird> you only have 40ms
22:16:29 <nooga> what Mario AI thing?
22:16:46 <nooga> ehird: let me guess, plan-9 clone written in haskell?
22:17:30 <pikhq> That's written in Voynich script.
22:17:52 <ehird> nooga's so close to being funny if only he had a sense of humour
22:18:30 <nooga> i didn't even try to be funny right now
22:19:10 -!- coppro has joined.
22:19:29 <coppro> http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Programming-Praxis-Josephus-Circle.aspx?CommentReplies=280209 :D
22:20:03 <ehird> piet isn't especially hard, is it?
22:20:49 <coppro> and that's a beautiful one, too
22:21:28 <nooga> looks pretty, has colors, me likes colors, ugh
22:22:28 <coppro> remind me to solve today's in INTERCAL
22:23:44 <coppro> hmm... I don't think my library has comparisons in yet
22:26:24 <ehird> I wish there was a button to obliterate nooga from the channel. :D
22:26:50 <coppro> ehird: I refuse to use anything but my own code when I do INTERCAL
22:26:59 <nooga> you could make one easily, ehird
22:27:17 <ehird> coppro: That's nice? …Context?
22:27:25 <ehird> coppro: Also, not even syslib.i? That's just stupid.
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22:27:32 <coppro> [15:23:44]hmm... I don't think my library has comparisons in yet
22:27:34 <coppro> [15:25:39]<ehird>Fascicle
22:27:43 <ehird> Yeah, uh, fascicle was just a random word I said.
22:28:28 <nooga> Yeah, uh, testicle was just a random word I said... I do that A LOT
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22:29:31 <ehird> nooga: how could I easily make this obliteration button?
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22:30:08 <ehird> damn I wish I had secret op rights so I could +o myself now
22:30:26 <nooga> step 2: rewrite limechat to create such button that sends apropriate command to channel
22:30:42 <ehird> What would editing LimeChat.app do for me?
22:31:41 <nooga> display a button (with caption "obliterate nooga from the channel" if needed) that would send +b for me ?
22:31:52 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:32:13 <ehird> But how would I invoke that from my IRC client?
22:33:06 <nooga> oh, just use limechat in that marvelous moment
22:33:15 <nooga> modified limechat with button
22:33:18 <ehird> But I don't use LimeChat.
22:34:42 <nooga> weren't you the one who recommended limechat to me
22:35:12 <nooga> okay, quite logical
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22:38:26 <nooga> uh, limechat just crashed
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22:45:59 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzSRVgF501M
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23:02:13 <ehird> 14:45:59 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzSRVgF501M
23:02:18 <ehird> firstly that's not a hallucinogen
23:02:40 * Sgeo first found out about it today, so it
23:02:44 <Sgeo> it's not old to me
23:03:42 <ehird> it's interesting though
23:03:49 <ehird> but the effects only last about 3-5 seconds
23:04:01 <ehird> not nearly trippy enough :)
23:04:32 <Sgeo> For me, the effect is strong, but yeah, 1:40 for 5 seconds of effect is meh
23:05:26 <Sgeo> Then again, people do that with food. Hours of cooking, for maybe 30min of eating
23:05:41 <ehird> yeah but 30min of eating is way more enjoyable than 5 seconds of warping
23:05:47 <ehird> and cooking can be fun
23:05:55 * Sgeo doesn't find eating to be enjoyable :/
23:06:09 <ehird> then either you eat bad food or have issues
23:06:22 <Sgeo> I think the latter
23:06:22 <ehird> anyway, Sgeo, I've seen better versions of that effect
23:06:23 <ehird> a little weaker, but only take 15-30s
23:06:31 <Sgeo> ehird, ooh, where?
23:06:39 <ehird> all over the internet
23:06:53 <ehird> i mean it's uberfamous
23:07:07 <ehird> http://zecina.blogspot.com/2009/04/warp-illusion.html
23:07:10 <Sgeo> "Using slow motion causes a longer and stronger trip."
23:07:13 <ehird> googled "warping illusion" on google
23:07:16 <Sgeo> ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSUrdipBY8 )
23:07:20 <Sgeo> Don't know if that's true
23:07:37 <ehird> the blogspot one i linked to is more spiky
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23:08:05 <ehird> Sgeo: effects can linger btw
23:08:16 <ehird> for instance my computer's UI elements bulged almost imperceptably for seconds after
23:08:45 <nooga> ehird: that's quite normal since you're using mac
23:08:46 <ehird> Sgeo: have you seen that thing where you stare at one image and stare at another which gives it colours, and even five years later the colours are still there without looking at the trigger?
23:08:51 <ehird> nooga: hur hur hur
23:09:12 <Sgeo> ehird, um, what? I've seen that thing before, but the effects don't last 5 years
23:09:24 <ehird> it's another thing, then
23:09:28 <ehird> it was specifically deigned and researched
23:09:55 <ehird> comment on that slow video:
23:09:57 <ehird> [[if i look at a shadow its fuck are it could be the acid fuck maybe it not wise to wacth these while high on acid what the fuck am i typein who am i typein to why am i typin]]
23:10:02 <ehird> yeah I think it's the acid not the video.
23:11:50 <ehird> Sgeo: thing augur told me about,
23:12:01 <ehird> if you put on glasses that make everything upside down, you'll be disoriented at first
23:12:06 <ehird> but then, everything is fine
23:12:12 <ehird> and if a week or two later you take them off?
23:12:15 <ehird> Everything seems upside down.
23:12:25 <ehird> And you have to relearn what's the right way up.
23:12:39 <ehird> oklopol should do that, he's the only one crazy enough
23:15:12 <Sgeo> Shouldn't it only take a day or two to get reoriented?
23:15:26 <Sgeo> No, the longer video didn't have longer lasting effects for me :(
23:15:29 <ehird> but who knows what it could fuck up in your brain
23:15:50 <ehird> i bet you'd have to relearn left/right from scratch, for instance
23:15:54 <ehird> which is not as easy as it sounds...
23:16:14 * Sgeo has had issues with left/right when he was younger
23:17:39 <ehird> Sgeo: my mother still has to think to remember which is which
23:19:35 <Sgeo> http://frogger11758.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/left-left-left-right-left/
23:20:27 <ehird> "I wonder if this is an Aspie trait or simply an idiosyncracy of mine."
23:20:40 <ehird> God, I hate people who ascribe everything to the vague notion of Asperger's syndrome.
23:20:54 <ehird> There's a word for that guy's condition; it's "can't tell left from right".
23:21:23 <Sgeo> ...hence the wonder, and not "It's because I'm an Aspie"
23:21:55 <ehird> I really don't care, such association is completely unfounded and just further muddies the definition of the psychological equivalent of a pile of mud
23:21:57 <GregorR-L> Yesterday reading my own written driving instructions I turned right instead of left, and even reading it multiple times I could have SWORN it was a right arrow. Does that mean I have Asperger's?
23:22:03 -!- coppro has joined.
23:22:13 <ehird> Being a geek and/or different and/or strange = YOU HAVE ASPERGER'S SYNDROME!
23:22:45 <Sgeo> ....I'm pretty sure that this person was diagnosed with AS
23:23:23 <Sgeo> Oh, you weren't talking about Cale in particular >.>
23:24:05 <ehird> Most of what I said still applies.
23:24:19 <ehird> And diagnosing someone with a pile of mud doesn't make it any less mdudy.
23:24:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHydHfs8mmo "Do not participate in this video several times in a short space of time"
23:24:50 <ehird> You can tell it's a serious warning because it has a cannabis leaf.
23:25:06 <ehird> lol that's recorded from a screen
23:25:19 <ehird> where's the table, I ask you
23:26:00 <Sgeo> $attempt_to_indicate_that_I_get_the_reference_without_being_able_to_come_up_with_a_suitable_reference_myself
23:26:01 <nooga> then who was phone?
23:26:27 <ehird> nooga: dude, that doesn't even fucking fit
23:27:10 <nooga> oh it's just a random phrase
23:27:12 <Sgeo> nooga, http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/
23:27:29 <nooga> i tend to speak random phrases sometimes
23:27:45 <ehird> Sgeo: ahh the first image in the header is the devil's bible
23:29:36 <nooga> devils bible is fun
23:31:03 <augur> ehird, its more like a week of disorientation
23:31:06 <augur> gradually decreasing ofcourse
23:31:17 <ehird> augur: when you put on the glasses or after taking them off?
23:31:21 <ehird> also, has this actually been tried?
23:31:36 <ehird> by whom? link? any lingering effects at the end?
23:31:51 <augur> i dont remember by who, and no, no lingering effects
23:33:14 <ehird> augur: what i want to know is, does your brain actually end up flipping the image for you, so that it appears normal (not that you could really tell), or do you actually get an intuitive sense for the directions?
23:33:31 <ehird> i can't imagine feeling my arm going leftwards and associating that with anything other than what i see now as left
23:33:36 <augur> that question does not infact make sense.
23:33:45 <augur> despite the obvious sensicality of it.
23:34:02 <nooga> ehird: shut up <-- he's afraid of the devil ;D
23:34:09 <ehird> nooga: no, that image is just creepy
23:36:25 <augur> the world has no inherent up and down. we have gravity here on earth, sure, and your brain correlates sensed direction of gravity with motion in your visual inputs, but the "image" isn't flipped, etc. if you hung yourself upside, in a room that was upside down, the image would be "right side up", but it would FEEL upside down. and eventually, as your brain adjusts to the change in gravity, you would not be able to distingui
23:36:28 <augur> sh anything as being different from how it was, i think
23:36:36 <augur> but it wouldnt "flip" in any sense
23:36:52 <augur> its like talking about flipping an image in your computer. not on your SCREEN, but in the computer, in the binary representation.
23:36:55 <augur> binary has no up or down
23:36:57 <augur> it makes no sense.
23:37:23 <Sgeo> We could call the direction that gravity pulls in the world's "down"
23:37:30 <augur> right, i said that
23:37:39 <augur> well, i said that we have gravity
23:37:43 <augur> calling that down changes nothing
23:38:33 <augur> your experience of the visual stuff aligned in one way or another is the result of how that data correlates with other sensory data, but the sum total of that data has no "down" independent of how the data coheres
23:39:11 <ehird> it just upsets me we can't ask these questions
23:39:23 <pikhq> augur: "Down" is a direction that only has meaning regarding a frame of reference. That's about it. Whoo.
23:39:24 <oklopol> ehird: oklopol should do that, he's the only one crazy enough <<< i've thought about doing that many times, but i don't have the glasses to do it.
23:39:24 <augur> but the answer is that there is no answer. :)
23:39:31 <ehird> and scares me that our minds are so...
23:39:38 <oklopol> also i've heard it takes a lot more than a few days
23:39:48 <augur> if anything it should turn you on!
23:39:50 <ehird> augur: as in, we couldn't detect a serious cognitive change from inside that cognition
23:40:00 <augur> well we could actually
23:40:06 <ehird> and we can't observe those cognitive changes from outside
23:40:10 <ehird> very Reflections on Trusting Trust
23:40:14 <augur> because we would observe a difference in how things cohere
23:40:23 <ehird> orly? how would you detect the flip change
23:40:37 <augur> well you'd detect it at FIRST by the fact that the image would appear upside down to you
23:40:42 <augur> your brain has to adjust
23:40:50 <augur> but the image on your retina is ALREADY upside down.
23:40:51 <ehird> because they wiped your memories of adjusting
23:41:01 <augur> ok, well, in that case, so what?
23:41:14 <augur> your experience of the world before and after is no different
23:41:18 <ehird> I care about plenty of questions of that sort
23:41:22 <ehird> e.g. quantum mechanics interpretation
23:41:25 <augur> all thats different is whether your retinas are bigendian or littleendian
23:41:39 <ehird> the image ISN'T subjectively flipped
23:41:43 <ehird> the cognitive experience we get
23:41:45 <ehird> is exactly the same
23:41:58 <ehird> not just our mappings being readjusted but not the visuals
23:42:11 <augur> but the visuals ARE the mappings
23:42:12 <augur> thats all there is
23:42:17 <AnMaster> blue2_light.bmp: PNG image data, 512 x 512, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced <-- someone fails at file extensions :D
23:42:20 <ehird> but it doesn't feel like that
23:42:24 <ehird> it feels like we have a bitmap image in front of us
23:42:27 <augur> well ofcourse it doesnt
23:42:27 <ehird> and interpret it cognitively
23:42:38 <augur> because our brain processes the content of the data
23:42:39 <ehird> it doesn't feel like what i see is my cognitive representation
23:43:01 <augur> i mean, its like the brain has a native jpeg interpreter
23:43:09 <augur> and doesnt need to render out to a bit map to do facial recognition
23:43:12 <ehird> uh my vision is better quality than jpeg
23:43:24 <ehird> anyway, I'm just saying that my vision FEELS unprocessed
23:43:25 <augur> instead, it just learnt to detect faces in the jpeg encoded data
23:43:27 <ehird> it feels like i act on that
23:43:35 <ehird> which of course is false
23:43:42 <augur> well sure it does, because you're detecting the semantics, not the encoding
23:43:53 <augur> and you are, in a sense, acting on a direct image
23:44:16 <augur> i mean, the periphery has direct images as input
23:44:17 <ehird> so basically, if you had a button that let you switch between adjusted-to-flip-with-flip and not-adjusted-without
23:44:22 <ehird> then clicking it would seem to do nothing at all
23:44:34 <augur> and the patterns, the relative behaviors, are all still detectable
23:44:38 <augur> and thats what your brain cares about
23:44:40 <ehird> as opposed to if the visuals were unprocessed and we acted on them, in which case there would be some sort of visual jolt
23:44:42 <augur> the correlative behavior
23:44:43 <ehird> but everything would seem right
23:44:44 <augur> not the literal form
23:44:46 <ehird> augur: confirm/deny
23:44:47 <oklopol> ehird: the image doesn't flip, but what does magically flip is what it means to move your left or right arm, because you need to adjust those to work with what you see. so to speak. as augur said, not a completely well-defined question
23:45:02 <oklopol> everyone should just try it out
23:45:17 <ehird> oklopol: but you couldn't answer the question even subjectively
23:45:23 <ehird> at which point you'd have to do it again
23:45:31 <ehird> you need both states at once to answer it
23:45:40 <oklopol> anyway i'm already pretty good at moving based on looking in the mirror
23:45:58 <oklopol> i only get practise in elevators, so progress is slow
23:46:28 <ehird> you could buy a mirror.
23:46:29 <oklopol> it's weird how fast you can flip your left and right
23:47:09 <oklopol> that's not exactly skill #1 to acquire on my list.
23:51:28 <ehird> is your mom like finlandic your face
23:52:51 -!- meanburrito920 has joined.
23:52:58 <ehird> Oh no, it's a burrito. That is mean.
23:52:58 <AnMaster> ehird, did you see that about wrong extension above?
23:53:15 <oklopol> HEY THE CORRECT TERM IS FIN*NISH*
23:53:24 <oklopol> god i hate your ignorance GRRR
23:53:25 <ehird> oklopol: no that's the culture
23:53:27 <ehird> finlandic is the place
23:53:32 <ehird> AnMaster: What am I supposed to respond?
23:53:34 <ehird> Hi meanburrito920.
23:54:01 <nooga> dear, i guess what ehird done here is an example of my (alleged) idiocy
23:54:13 <ehird> meanburrito920: (a) who are you, (b) what brought you here, (c) how many goats did you sacrifice?
23:54:16 <meanburrito920> oklopol, are you showing cultural ignorance of finishing?
23:55:28 <nooga> look ol' polo ok? oklopol
23:55:45 <meanburrito920> ehird, (a) I am who am (b) i took a scroll down /list lane (c) i sacrificed no goats. however, i did sacrifice many cookies, who died valiantly in my tummy
23:56:25 <ehird> meanburrito920: well it's a good thing you appear to be in programming channels because we do not yet specialise in voodoo.
23:56:36 <ehird> also you came in at a great time, this channel is like this pretty much always.
23:57:55 <ehird> Also, oklopol's face really looks like that.
23:57:59 <oklopol> have i done many palindromes here?
23:59:13 <nooga> ehird: meanburrito920: (a) who are you, (b) what brought you here, (c) how many goats did you sacrifice?
23:59:20 <nooga> meanburrito920: ehird, (a) I am who am (b) i took a scroll down /list lane (c) i sacrificed no goats. however, i did sacrifice many cookies, who died valiantly in my tummy
23:59:22 <oklopol> "th" is an annoying little bastard
23:59:24 <ehird> nooga: hey i copywrit that
23:59:27 <oklopol> when it comes to making pals
23:59:31 <nooga> (probably ehird found a new friend)
23:59:36 <ehird> helsinki technology university
23:59:44 <ehird> nooga: i have no idea what the fuck you're talking about
23:59:51 <oklopol> ehird: nicks, names and acronyms are cheating
23:59:55 <nooga> fuck about talking
23:59:58 <ehird> meanburrito920: http://esolangs.org/ btw