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05:46:44 <zzo38> Is it good? Did I forget anything? http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt
05:48:06 <zzo38> O, in 8 hours there has been still only join and quit
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14:37:31 <ehird> 06:25:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> yes, myself <-- do it!
14:37:31 <ehird> by myself i evidently meant you.
14:42:29 <ehird> 06:42:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, and a question about it. Wondering if you can figure out why
14:42:30 <ehird> 06:42:36 <AnMaster> (why jamie said that in the last panel I mean)
14:42:30 <ehird> 06:46:39 <oerjan> experience?
14:42:31 <ehird> 06:46:56 <AnMaster> oerjan, eh? why it was inevitable
14:42:31 <ehird> 06:47:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, what do you mean?
14:42:31 <ehird> 06:47:55 <oerjan> that _is_ the kind of universe that is. i am sure ehird can come up with some way of deriding you for not having noticed.
14:42:33 <ehird> Au contraire; AnMaster is an expert in unintentionally deriding himself. I could not possibly top him.
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14:44:04 <ehird> 02:25:38 <AnMaster> coppro, alarm for?
14:44:05 <ehird> 02:25:43 <AnMaster> as in alarm() ?
14:44:05 <ehird> also an expert in intentionally misunderstanding
14:44:09 <ehird> (cue "it was a joke")
14:45:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I did find alarm() unlikely. But what sort of alarm it was was rather unclear. Perhaps alarm for overheating? Or an alarm clock to wake up in the morning?
14:45:51 <AnMaster> but surely you can tell me which one he meant
14:45:51 <ehird> It was pretty obviously for waking up.
14:56:43 <coppro> AnMaster: as in waking up
14:57:12 <ehird> Because it's obvious.
14:58:09 <ehird> With such stunning spelling of "circular argument", it's clear that you are a higher authority than I on what is obvious in English text.
14:58:40 <AnMaster> ah yes as I expected... you are back on OS X
14:58:43 <AnMaster> -ehird- VERSION Colloquy 2.3 (4617) - Mac OS X 10.5.8 (Intel) - http://colloquy.info
14:58:50 <ehird> I've been on OS X for weeks.
14:59:07 <AnMaster> ehird, okay, maybe you just had a bad day?
14:59:10 <ehird> I'm pretty sure a circular argument (even if it was one) beats a completely unsubstantiated ad hominem, though.
14:59:26 <ehird> Especially one without any backing logic or reason, just a splatter of data points selectively sampled.
14:59:50 <ehird> It sure would be nice if AnMaster would /ignore me for more than 5 minutes.
15:01:29 <ehird> I wonder what mood AnMaster will divinate^Wscientifically assign to my Linux; perhaps "slightly mellow with a hint of cynicism".
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15:37:16 * oerjan tries to swat FireFly, misses and swats ehird instead -----###
15:37:32 <ehird> couldn't you have hit fax instead? he's closer
15:39:04 <oerjan> i'm sure there was probably karma involved
15:40:03 <oerjan> also, i'm sure "i'm sure there was probably" is probably not an ideal way of expression
15:41:32 <oerjan> <ehird> I'm pretty sure a circular argument (even if it was one) beats a completely unsubstantiated ad hominem, though.
15:41:42 <oerjan> you just say that because you're an idiot
15:41:51 <ehird> Ranking invalid arguments is so reasonable, I tell you.
15:42:02 <ehird> I'm no idiot! I am, however, stupid.
15:42:25 <oerjan> yes you are an idiot. as that quote proves.
15:43:49 <ehird> Your, uh, pa is an idiot.
15:45:37 <oerjan> that's almost more offensive than joking about my dead mother. mostly because i sometimes think so myself.
15:47:40 <oerjan> also, i am insulted that you have still not recognized my use of a circular ad hominem
15:58:50 <ehird> oerjan: your non-existent long-lost sister is an idiot, then
15:59:17 <oerjan> i can agree with that.
16:00:00 <ehird> you sound so angry when you're not joking :D
16:00:33 <oerjan> well i'm grumpy today.
16:01:06 <ehird> Yeah, well, your non-existent long-lost sister's... face?
16:22:57 <ehird> Drawing a serifed m in 7x10 pixels is the hardest thing I've done all day.
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16:41:48 <ehird> The reason login(1) delays on an incorrect password is to prevent brute-forcing, right?
16:42:14 <oerjan> botch a batch of butch bitches
16:56:18 <ehird> Pretty stupid, since you can just spawn a bunch of login(1)s.
16:56:43 <ehird> Or even detect the delay and go onto the next one (keeping the old process open in case it's just slow).
16:57:04 <SimonRC> but a machine only has so many login processes around usually
16:57:51 <SimonRC> one for each virtual terminal I think, but not for xterms or anything
16:58:25 <SimonRC> and if they keep getting killed to fast, init will stop producing them (in case they have neterd a loop of some kind)
16:58:33 <Gregor> That property is to prevent brute-forcing to people who have NO account, not to people who have an account and want root.
16:58:54 <ehird> Gregor: How can you run a brute-forcing program from the login(1) prompt?
16:58:54 <SimonRC> but ordinary users can't spawn a login
16:59:19 <ehird> Gregor: You can detect the delay over telnet, too!
16:59:30 <ehird> And make a bunch of telnet connections.
16:59:47 <Gregor> The latter is easily prevented, the former is unhelpful.
17:00:12 <ehird> It seems kinda pointless nowadays to me.
17:00:17 <Gregor> Nowadays it certainly is.
17:00:17 <ehird> Especially when we have SSH keys...
17:00:27 <Gregor> But it's a product of past.
17:00:29 <ehird> Guess that's why you said telnet.
17:00:35 <ehird> Gregor: I can probably remove it. >:)
17:00:45 <ehird> — I'm even trying to avoid PAM, not sure how that'll go
17:00:46 <Gregor> sshd doesn't even spawn login anyway
17:01:17 <ehird> It still delays on connect, though.
17:01:27 <ehird> Or, that might just be because ssh is slow;
17:03:31 <ehird> http://sta.li/faq ;; What's this? Sanity? Astonishing.
17:04:02 <ehird> (http://github.com/dryfish/openbsd-pdksh sweeeeeet)
17:04:38 <ehird> Although did they have to make it use autoconf?
17:06:28 <ehird> And I hope automake defaulting it to GPLv3 is just a mistake...
17:13:33 <SimonRC> it portably allows arbitrary code execution.
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17:15:56 <ehird> and it's totally unintuitive, yet it's not a bug(!)
17:16:04 <ehird> well, it's not a bug any more than static linking itself is a bug...
17:21:23 * ehird fiddles with ksh prompt
17:22:26 <SimonRC> if it is a bug then it is a design-time bug
17:28:18 <ehird> PS1="\e[47;4;30m\$(pwd | sed 's@^$HOME@~@')$\e[m " seems to produce quite a pleasing prompt; makes underscores ugly, thouggh
17:28:40 <ehird> (underlined, light-grey backgrounded "~/foo$", then a space)
17:31:10 <ehird> PS1='\e[47m<literal tab>\e[m ' is nice too (light-grey tab-sized space, then a space)
17:31:34 <ehird> means you have to look at the title bar to see where you are, though (assuming you've set that up)
17:41:19 <SimonRC> I have looked at my ldd, and I find that it has a list of known loaders and calls them with --verify and the executable name before invoking the executable itself. I guess that checks that the executable's loader is a known-safe one first
17:41:58 <SimonRC> ehird: does that propmt change when you change directories?
17:42:09 <ehird> yes, note the \ before $(
17:42:19 <ehird> ksh expands the PS1 'fore printing.
17:42:46 <ehird> technically I should have the horrible hack ksh uses to denote non-printing characters in there, but I'm lazy and it doesn't change much
17:42:54 <ehird> (the prompt just disappears when the line scrolls to the right earlier)
17:43:06 <ehird> and in fact my `man ksh` doesn't mention it so maybe the openbsd version doesn't have it
17:43:18 <SimonRC> huh? ksh does some kind of scrolling prompt?
17:43:34 <SimonRC> bash uses \[ and \] to denote zero-width parts of the prompt
17:43:46 <ehird> $ aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[…], press a
17:43:58 <ehird> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa <
17:44:11 <ehird> < meaning "yo, there's stuff to the left"
17:44:36 <ehird> you can caret (v. to manipulate a caret) to the left to see the earlier stuff
17:44:37 <SimonRC> bahs just uses multiple lines
17:44:38 <ehird> (no marker if you do that)
17:44:46 <ehird> yeah, multiple lines is maybe a better solution
17:44:56 <ehird> especially for pipelines
17:45:04 <ehird> but eh, it's easy to hit enter after |
17:45:39 <ehird> or, preferably, notice you're writing an involved shell command and spawn an rc :-P
17:46:54 * ehird does `sudo chsh` by mistake so often
17:46:59 <ehird> it feels like it should require root!
17:47:09 <ehird> and it prompts for a password, which makes my sudo-sense tingle
17:48:03 <ehird> *though (not thouggh; ha, good luck finding the line I typoed this in)
17:50:03 * SimonRC is irritated that when invoking root-requiring things from the GUI, he is prompted for the root password
17:50:34 <SimonRC> I have no root password; it should spot that and try a GUI sudo instead!
17:52:14 <ehird> SimonRC: symlink su to a shell script calling sudo ;-)
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17:52:23 <SimonRC> I wonder why that hasn't got upstream
17:53:07 <ehird> That is, make it `sudo realsu $*`
17:53:25 <ehird> root doesn't need to give passwords to su, so... voila!
17:53:42 <ehird> That doesn't fix GUI sus, but you could just do something similar there.
17:53:56 <ehird> Make gksu do gksudo realsu $*, etc.
17:54:11 <ehird> See, I'm helpful, me.
17:54:50 <ehird> You should do it and test it so I can go yay, I'm clever.
17:56:59 <ehird> Clearly the only rational course of action is to kill myself.
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18:01:39 * SimonRC listens to the excellent Undone, on the radio.
18:05:55 <ehird> "Why do you say that he is a fundamentalist ? Do you mean that he is right ?"
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18:16:14 <ehird> Mailing list thread. Clearly the speaker is non-native (if the email header name "QUINTIN Guillaume" wasn't enough of a giveaway).
18:16:21 <ehird> And the spaces before question marks.
18:16:23 <ehird> Still, it's amusing.
18:16:49 <ehird> It seems an easy mistake to make: "fundamentalist" → "of the fundamentals".
18:17:15 <oerjan> erm, it could also be that right ~ right-wing?
18:17:58 <ehird> In context, both previous and following, that seems unlikely.
18:18:14 <ehird> Besides, I think any non-native speaker, at least, would think right far more important a word than to abbreviate right-wing to it.
18:18:46 <ehird> (Which means that the native speakers that abbreviate it put political alignment above facts! Or something.)
18:18:51 <oerjan> no i mean, they could be the same word in his native language, or he doesn't know that "wing" applies
18:19:49 <oerjan> the names of the two oldest political parties in norway translate as simply "left" and "right"...
18:20:22 <ehird> Well that is true.
18:20:34 <ehird> But still, context seems to paint that as unlikely. You might be right though.
18:20:59 <madbrain> french uses "de gauche" and "de droite"... could happen
18:21:03 <ehird> oerjan: but would anyone making such a question really confuse fundamentalism and right-wing?
18:21:11 <oerjan> well it was just a theory (like evolution *ducks*)
18:21:16 <ehird> to make a connection of that type, I'd have to translate fundamentalist back to English as a non-native speaker
18:21:25 <ehird> which would almost certainly reveal the true meaning to me, thus negating the question
18:21:52 <ehird> it seems like it's a connection you could only make if you knew what fundamentalist means already
18:21:54 <madbrain> ehird: well, fundamentalism/evangelicals aren't common asides from in USA, so it's definitely possible that he'd confuse them
18:22:11 <ehird> Fundamentalism is everywhere. Do you really think it only applies to religion?
18:22:22 <oerjan> for example norwegians (i.e. me) have a hard time remembering to use left-hand or right-hand in english, since that is a case where we just use the bare words
18:22:39 <oerjan> ok maybe not me nowadays, but once upon a time
18:22:44 <ehird> oerjan: My right is right, but my left is left.
18:22:54 <ehird> THE POLITICAL AFFILIATION OF MY NORWEIGAN HANDS
18:23:15 <ehird> My left is right, but my right is left.
18:24:46 <ehird> oklopol: totally total
18:24:51 <ehird> i should have just said
18:25:04 <oerjan> ehird: while we do use the word "fundamentalisme" in norwegian, i assume this is mainly caused by recent US influence
18:25:22 <ehird> Fundamentalism doesn't just apply to religion dammit
18:25:27 <oerjan> at least in its current use
18:25:57 <oerjan> ehird: what i mean is we may not have used that word much before the USA recently started blasting it out everywhere
18:30:09 <ehird> with nntp you can access messages sent before you "subscribe" can't you?
18:30:12 <ehird> assuming the server keeps the
18:31:37 <oerjan> dammit the last update of avg claimed to do some kind caching to avoid scanning every file every time, but it _still_ goes into the damn java runtime jars... which i recall from before is what takes about half the scanning time
18:32:02 <oklopol> i don't protect viruses, because they don't protect me.
18:32:41 <oerjan> i had hoped for some major speedup :(
18:34:18 <ehird> oerjan: pirate nod32
18:34:22 <ehird> fast as a speeding virus scanner
18:35:10 <SimonRC> ehird: yeah, messages should be accessible
18:35:27 <SimonRC> what is the nntp request for subscribing anyway?
18:35:28 <madbrain> ""Fundamentalism is everywhere. Do you really think it only applies to religion?"" ah, ok, then we're talking about 2 different things: "fundamentalists" as general people that take temselves way too seriously (incl. communists,etc..) and the specific "born-again" protestant movement
18:35:42 <ehird> SimonRC: dunno if it even has one
18:35:58 <ehird> madbrain: yeah; the second is the formal definition but it's fine, imo, to use it for the former
18:36:01 <SimonRC> well if it didn't have one, how would your question make sense?
18:36:16 <oerjan> madbrain: when used in norway i would say > 50% of the time it refers to islamists
18:36:17 <ehird> SimonRC: well, exactly
18:36:21 <SimonRC> I use Giganews and it has plenty of coverage back to the early 90s at least
18:36:26 <ehird> oerjan: islamists? you mean muslims.
18:36:57 <ehird> actually, you mean fundamentalist muslims...
18:36:57 <oerjan> ehird: islamist ~~ rabid fundamentalist muslim
18:36:58 <ehird> oerjan: that word isn't actually, you know, real
18:37:00 <madbrain> ehird: he's referring to fundamentalist islamists
18:37:15 <ehird> wtf who created this word and didn't tell me about it
18:37:21 <oerjan> ehird: it's how the word islamist is used in norwegian afaik
18:37:29 <ehird> it seems to exist.
18:37:34 <madbrain> and islamism as a word is afaik real at least in french and also used all the time
18:38:04 <madbrain> muslim = religion; islamism = political movement
18:38:05 <oerjan> ehird: it's what people use when they are pretending not to be against islam itself ;)
18:38:39 <ehird> madbrain: the religion is definitely not called muslim, it's called islam
18:38:43 <ehird> and its adherents are muslims
18:39:46 <oerjan> pesky arab grammar, those are the same root...
18:40:12 <ehird> how deep! indeed insanity does have the same root as religion
18:40:23 <ehird> </creative mis^Winterpretation>
18:40:25 <oerjan> madbrain: i was refering to muslim as well there
18:40:25 <SimonRC> ditto shit and science, IIRC
18:40:42 <ehird> SimonRC: what, like, really? the words?
18:40:58 <madbrain> oearjan: true, islam and muslim are both "SLM"
18:41:16 <ehird> Shitty Lactating M— no, this acronym isn't working.
18:41:49 <oklopol> madbrain: why isn't muslim mslm?
18:41:55 <madbrain> which in those languages mean they're the same root... of course, that gets lost in loaning and they become two different morphemes
18:42:24 <oklopol> oh you actually know something, i thought you just meant they have those consonants
18:42:36 <ehird> Sadism, Loving, Masochism
18:42:45 <oklopol> (was just making sure i didn't imagine the m, basically)
18:43:07 <madbrain> oklopol: arab languages use sets of 3 consonants as roots, and derive them by adding different patterns of vowels and extra consonants
18:44:24 <ehird> so there's only 17,576 valid roots in arabic
18:44:30 <madbrain> obviously english is mostly concatenative+various irregularities all over the place so that mechanism is lost in loans
18:44:44 <ehird> WATCH OUT INDIANS! YER DERN ANTI-MERICAN LANGUAGE GONA COME TO AN END WHEN WE INVENT US SOME MORE WORDS!
18:45:19 <madbrain> ehird: that's kinda like in chinese: chinese has only about 5000 morphemes
18:45:20 <oklopol> ehird: they have 26 consonants?
18:45:22 <SimonRC> ooh, that's another one to my list of crimes: speaking English natively
18:45:38 <madbrain> which are combined into thousands of compound words
18:45:44 <ehird> oklopol: also i hate you
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18:46:17 <ehird> one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen
18:46:21 <ehird> fifteen sixteen seventeen
18:46:28 <ehird> eighteen nineteen twenty twenty one twenty two twenty three
18:46:36 <ehird> twenty four twenty five twenty six twenty seven
18:46:54 <ehird> OKAY 7.62559758 * 10^12 ROOTS THEN
18:47:07 <oklopol> are those all english numbers?
18:47:08 <ehird> SO WE HAVE TO MAKE UP A FEW MORE WORDS
18:47:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language#Consonants
18:47:24 <ehird> hell of a lot of consonants
18:47:43 <ehird> only two vowels too?
18:47:51 <ehird> "The Arabic alphabet has 29 basic letters."
18:47:58 <oklopol> oh, must've misunderstood the table
18:48:06 <oerjan> two? i thought it had 3 which could be long or short...
18:48:18 <ehird> oerjan: argh i am so confused
18:48:23 <ehird> HOW MANY CONSONANTS DOES ARABIC HAVE
18:48:30 <oklopol> madbrain, ehird: i got 28 by a quick look, may be wrong.
18:48:42 <oklopol> i'm not sure what it means that there are two characters in each box
18:48:55 <ehird> oops, I swapped my ^ arguments kekekekekeke
18:49:00 <ehird> oklopol: one is ipa or english or w/e
18:49:05 <oerjan> ehird: the arabic alphabet is basically consonantal and vowels are an afterthought iiuc
18:49:07 <ehird> anyway 21,952 then
18:49:28 <oklopol> oerjan: langton's ant touches an infinite number of squares with any possible initial configuration, has this already been ruined for you?
18:50:09 <oklopol> i'm sure you love trying to solve my homework (this one i've solved)
18:50:39 <madbrain> english has, uhm, 24 consonants by comparison, not many less
18:50:47 <oerjan> oklopol: i'm not sure i may have seen it mentioned
18:50:49 <oklopol> ehird: it's a problem, you have to prove that
18:50:54 <fax> homework??? where??
18:51:12 <madbrain> english has many more vowels though :D
18:51:14 <oklopol> if you know the solution, there's nothing to solve
18:51:17 * Sgeo convinced his dad that an Active Worlds subscription will help him with classes
18:51:54 <Sgeo> Well, bots for AW can be written in C or C++, and I'm taking a C++ class, so..
18:52:20 <ehird> Congratulations! You are either the best convincer ever or your dad is the most convincable ever.
18:52:39 <Sgeo> oklopol, planning to
18:52:42 <ehird> (BETTER THAN CONGRATULATIONS: Spatulations)
18:52:59 <Sgeo> ehird, probably the latter
18:53:25 <Sgeo> He didn't really ask questions >.>
18:53:42 <ehird> Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr he just doesn't really care all that much
18:53:52 <oerjan> ehird: btw all those letters in the [[WP:Arabic alphabet]] table are consonants, it's just some double occasionally as vowels
18:54:54 <madbrain> yeah, arabic doesn't put much emphasis on vowels
18:55:40 <madbrain> the number of possible vowel patterns is limited, so if you add enough extra information in the writing, they become unambiguous
18:56:31 <Sgeo> Dear Firefox: Please stop randomly freezing on me. Love, Sgeo
18:56:39 <ehird> a language that's all vowels would be fun
18:56:46 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know that technically nothing (or at least, very little) a computer does is random)
18:56:47 <ehird> Sgeo: Stop using Firefox. —ehird
18:57:26 <madbrain> ehird: dunno if that's plausible, although you can definitely have a language with lots of vowels and not so many consonants for instance
18:57:44 <ehird> the whole fun is that it's all vowels
18:57:50 <ehird> so it sounds like you're just doing baby-style vocalisations!
18:58:55 <madbrain> ehird: ah, but then /i,u/ would turn into /j,w/, then probably /J\,b/ and eventually /t~k p/
18:59:12 <madbrain> due to the speed at which you'd have to talk
18:59:14 <ehird> Well, forbid any such pesky combinations then.
18:59:51 <madbrain> that's pretty much impossible, the vowel inventory would expand until one vowel changes into /i/ and one into /u/
19:01:12 <madbrain> In fact, once /i,u/ turned into consonants, then /e,o/ would raise to /i,u/ and then in turn become consonants too
19:01:14 <ehird> Well, why would you have to talk quickly?
19:01:25 <ehird> Just take it sloooooooowly. ooooooooooooooooooooooy.
19:01:29 -!- boily has joined.
19:01:37 <ehird> Now you're boilier.
19:01:37 <madbrain> well, the less possible different syllables you have, the faster you have to speak
19:01:54 <ehird> madbrain: UNLESS YOU'RE RETARDED.
19:02:16 <boily> ehird: I wonder what is my boiling point?
19:02:16 <madbrain> kinda like spanish, the have less possible vowels etc... so they speak twice as fast to compensate :D
19:02:20 <ehird> Yep, that killed the conversation
19:02:27 <madbrain> but it works because they have less slow sounds
19:02:33 <ehird> Bad timing for me to say that huh
19:02:43 <madbrain> and they have less slow sounds bevause they have less possible vowels etc.. :D
19:02:51 <ehird> boily: Evidently <= room temperature, if you're boily now.
19:03:05 <ehird> You could be in some sort of heating contraption though, technically.
19:03:14 <madbrain> My calculation is that you have to have about 50bits per second
19:03:19 <ehird> Where do you get your durable keyboards and mice?!
19:03:40 <ehird> madbrain: you're slowist.
19:03:52 <madbrain> so you have some languages with huge syllables full of information (say, 10 bits) that go slower (like 5 syllables/s)
19:03:55 <oerjan> apparently swedes talk much slower than danes, i seem to recall reading recently. i don't think the phoneme set sizes are that different...
19:04:10 <oerjan> although pronunciation certainly is
19:04:40 <madbrain> inversely you have languages with small syllables (like ~6bit in japanese) but they can go faster since all the syllables are simple (say, 8 syllables/s)
19:05:34 <ehird> madbrain: optimising a language for efficient bit transfer would be fun
19:05:41 <madbrain> So it would be hard to have a vowel set that is large enough while also being fast, since the faster the vowel, the less time you have to glide to the next one so the more approximative they become
19:05:51 <ehird> that is, you can talk quickly (thus feeling like you're communicating faster) but with enough bits to be efficient
19:06:00 <ehird> voila, everyone feels like they're talking really quickly
19:06:11 <ehird> and they are, just not by that much
19:06:56 <madbrain> So with vowels only, suppose you'd have to reach 64 syllables at least, can you do that? :D
19:07:43 <ehird> No, but oklopol can.
19:08:38 <oerjan> including diphthongs and triphthongs?
19:08:41 <madbrain> ~60 different possible syllables
19:09:00 <madbrain> oerjan: but that's dangerous, basically you're putting in /j,w/ with those :D
19:09:45 <boily> don't forget reversed "h"
19:09:47 <ehird> madbrain: do you mean you'd have to speak @ 64 syllables/s?
19:09:52 * boily consults his sampa table...
19:09:56 <oerjan> so you want 64 pure vowels? i vaguely recall there's some south-east asian language which comes close
19:10:05 <madbrain> plus you'd have syllable boundary problems probably... still better than a fully pure vowel system
19:10:18 <ehird> STOP CORRUPTING THIS FOLLY'S PURITY
19:10:37 <madbrain> oerjan: well, no, it could have diphthongs I guess :D
19:11:21 <madbrain> ehird: no, not speak @ 64 syllable/s, you have to have at least 64 different possible syllables in your language
19:11:46 <ehird> madbrain: how fast would you have to speak then for 50 b/s?
19:11:55 <ehird> depends on how fast you can speak a syllable ofc
19:12:10 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:12:11 <oklopol> what language doesn't have 64 syllables?
19:12:12 <ehird> since that means 1 syllable = 6 bits
19:12:13 <madbrain> well, suppose you have 8 pure vowels only, that's 3 bits, so you'd have to speak at about 17 syll/s
19:12:18 <ehird> oklopol: one only using vowels
19:12:27 <ehird> madbrain: oklopol can do that!
19:12:46 <oklopol> with 3 finnish vowels, 512 syllables
19:13:22 <madbrain> oklopol: hmm... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language might have less than 64, or more...
19:14:04 <oerjan> 7 consonants and 5 vowels
19:14:15 <oklopol> Pirahã can be whistled, hummed, or encoded in music. <<< are you sure it's even a well-defined question?
19:14:27 <oklopol> oerjan: and only one vowel per syllable?
19:14:31 <oerjan> it's not pure cv, as the final s shows
19:14:41 <oerjan> so probably won't work
19:14:50 <ehird> oklopol: how many syllables of pure vowels can you speak per second
19:14:52 <madbrain> rotokas afaik has many non CV syllables too
19:15:21 <oerjan> madbrain: you're a linguist like augur?
19:15:35 <ehird> augur is too, admittedly
19:15:46 <madbrain> it's more like a nerdy hobby to me :D
19:15:48 <ehird> madbrain: does student count as professional, if not augur isn't either :P
19:16:02 <ehird> madbrain: you're not boring like augur, thankfully!
19:16:03 <oklopol> i kinda put them in separate syllables if i just talk in vowels
19:16:06 <ehird> um, don't tell augur i said t haht
19:16:32 <oklopol> ehird: i'm sure augur doesn't know his linguism bored you
19:17:02 <oklopol> anyway i need to leave irc now, remember to love each other like i do
19:17:32 <ehird> a finn loving? ha!
19:19:20 <oerjan> the finns cannot love it would mess up the sauna culture
19:20:29 <madbrain> how about making a language with only 10 consonants and no consonant-vowel-consonant syllables but 5000+ syllables? :D
19:20:38 * ehird cries. my poor pixel font is being ruined by the impossibility of "m"!
19:21:08 <SimonRC> ehird: what is your char size?
19:21:09 <madbrain> yeah for m you have to compromise
19:21:14 <ehird> you try making an m glyph with serifs that fits in 7x10
19:21:19 <ehird> (8x12; rest of pixels used for spacing)
19:21:29 <madbrain> most fonts I've seen make the "m" with a only 1 pixel wide bar
19:21:30 <ehird> especially one that fits in with my other characters...
19:21:44 <ehird> madbrain: yes, my non-bold chars don't have such doubled d lines
19:21:46 <ehird> my bold chars do though
19:21:50 <ehird> maybe i'll do bold m and debold it
19:21:59 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
19:22:19 <ehird> k was a challenge too but i'm semi-satisfied with what i have
19:22:20 <Rugxulo> ehird: http://elinux.org/Kernel_Size_Tuning_Guide
19:22:34 <ehird> Rugxulo: why thank you!
19:22:43 <SimonRC> try 1110100 0101010 ... 0101011
19:22:48 <ehird> Rugxulo: especially the list of config options
19:23:04 <ehird> SimonRC: is each block vertical or horizontal
19:23:21 <Rugxulo> also, unrelated, but I did hack that tiny DOS Befunge93 interpreter again, it's now 1024 bytes w/ simple LFN and 386 check (so it won't crash on older cpus)
19:23:24 <madbrain> ehird: also you can use the top contour of the letter as a cue
19:23:57 <ehird> SimonRC: oh that's good
19:23:57 <madbrain> ehird: or use the "empty row" at the right of the char, making it 8 wide instead of 7
19:24:05 <ehird> that 1 at the very end makes it look good
19:24:17 <ehird> it's not fat at all like my other characters, but I have to compromise for m, it seems
19:24:21 <ehird> madbrain: yes, I'm considering that too
19:24:32 <ehird> madbrain: but it'd make the neighbouring character bash right into it
19:24:34 <SimonRC> you said you wanted serigs
19:24:46 <ehird> SimonRC: yeah, but I couldn't get them looking good
19:25:00 <SimonRC> I didn't know how it would look, since I just typed it in </boast>
19:25:13 <madbrain> or you can reduce the spaces between the lines so that they touch, it should be readable still since you'll recognize it by density instead of by line configuration
19:26:02 <ehird> another avenue to explore might be making the middle line shorter
19:26:05 <ehird> it seems to look okay
19:26:28 <ehird> i really like most of this font so far...
19:26:50 <ehird> madbrain: making the lines touch would look very unlike the other characters; they're very thin
19:27:24 <madbrain> you're making it only 1 line thick?
19:27:39 <ehird> yep, apart from the bold characters
19:27:44 <ehird> the look so far is very distinctive
19:27:47 <madbrain> then m should not be a problem!
19:27:58 <ehird> ah, but I need to make it fit — and the other characters look fit
19:28:06 <ehird> I think I have a very good candidate, though!
19:28:15 <madbrain> well, without bold you have ample space for that
19:28:33 <ehird> stop sending for a sec
19:28:44 <ehird> it looks pretty good
19:28:48 <ehird> think I should reduce those serifs though
19:29:08 <madbrain> ah, but you can also let the serif go into the empty line!
19:29:27 <ehird> but none of my other characters do that; and the spacing is nice — it fits with the outlines; the characters breath a lot
19:30:08 <ehird> madbrain: you can continue sending that char you were sending now
19:31:30 <SimonRC> the assymetry on row 2 isn't very nice
19:31:49 <ehird> dude, this is serif country
19:31:54 <ehird> we hate symmetry :P
19:32:19 <ehird> madbrain: lemme copy that into my image editor
19:32:23 * Rugxulo finds compression funny yet weird ... 7za a -mx9 produces 1025-byte file from a 1024-byte .COM while aPACK -x produces 1023 bytes
19:32:34 <ehird> madbrain: btw, my letters are mostly 6px high
19:32:37 <ehird> I'll adjust for that
19:32:42 <SimonRC> they aren't designed to work on things that small
19:32:57 <ehird> SimonRC: ahh, but the serifs make my font what it is
19:32:57 <madbrain> also if you use half-solid pixels you can use to anti-alias the shape, too
19:33:02 <ehird> it'd be bland otherwise
19:33:06 <ehird> madbrain: half-solid?
19:33:25 <madbrain> well, like, say, white-gray-black instead of just white-black
19:33:53 <ehird> madbrain: that m you showed has a problem many of my ms have had — a little dirt-looking artifact when zoomed out onn a high-res screen
19:34:02 <ehird> madbrain: also, naw, don't have nothin' like that
19:34:16 <SimonRC> I meant "Rugxulo: the compression programs aren't designed to work on anything that small"
19:34:26 <madbrain> another option might be dropping serifs on m
19:34:49 <ehird> madbrain: considered that; I definitely don't think a serif on the middle line is practical
19:35:18 * ehird considers something; tries it
19:35:30 -!- boily has quit ("leaving").
19:36:18 <ehird> I'm gonna try a bold m and debold it
19:36:22 <ehird> thanks for all the suggestions
19:36:37 <ehird> oops, haven't done a bold l yet
19:36:38 <SimonRC> in really tiny typefacse, you get M being things like 111 111 101, and it can work
19:36:59 <ehird> SimonRC: yeah, I did something similar with my 4x3 typeface (with spacing 5x4)
19:37:10 <fizzie> The rfk86 m is "110 111 101"; n is "110 101 101".
19:37:15 <SimonRC> you need sub-pixel rendering!
19:37:42 <SimonRC> fizzie: ouch 1-pixel difference
19:37:42 <ehird> SimonRC: http://typophile.com/node/61920 :-)
19:38:07 <SimonRC> they tend to look a bit rainbowy though
19:38:09 <ehird> (as interesting for the font as it is for gawping at StoneCypher's serious mental illness)
19:38:33 <ehird> also, Apple aren't the first nor last to do subpixel font rendering
19:38:37 <ehird> even Microsoft do it (ClearType)
19:38:44 <ehird> and it's the default in Ubuntu
19:38:54 <fizzie> SimonRC: Well... if you have ff3.5 or something that does font-embedding like that (and scripts on), you can see it "live" at http://zem.fi/rfk86/ [not a shameless plug at all] -- it's not so bad. And actually both had one "101" more, since it's 6x4-sized cells.
19:40:08 <Rugxulo> ehird: looks like Linux 2.4 got updated today (2.4.37.7)
19:40:37 * ehird realises he fucked up a character width in the bold font
19:40:55 <madbrain> like, the VGA font has serifs only on some letters
19:40:56 <Rugxulo> for unlawful carnal knowledge
19:41:03 <ehird> eh, I can sort it out later
19:41:22 <ehird> when i enter them as bit arrays :-)
19:42:25 <ehird> Mainly for English text, although I like it so much that I've considered using it for a terminal.
19:42:34 <ehird> Admittedly monospaced is kinda crap for English.
19:42:45 <Rugxulo> linux-2.4.37.7.tar.bz2 -- 29.7 MB (ouch)
19:43:01 <ehird> Yeah, a whole 30 MiB? I have to buy a new drive, man.
19:43:03 <madbrain> I'd go for a font with 2 pixel wide lines for terminal though
19:43:05 <ehird> Because I'm from 1980, dude.
19:43:08 <ehird> Which is why I'm saying man, dude.
19:43:17 <ehird> madbrain: Then use the bold variant.
19:43:26 <ehird> But in the Unix world we don't do that crap. :D
19:43:47 <Rugxulo> linux-2.4.0.tar.bz218.9 MB1/3/01 6:00:00 PM
19:44:13 <Rugxulo> so it basically doubled in size
19:44:48 <ehird> Yes, Rugxulo, technology is going down the drain, 10.8 MiB increase over eight years is basically the downfall of humanity, people who don't support the 286 are incompetent.
19:44:54 <Rugxulo> but not as bad as XP (1.5 GB) to Vista (16 GB)
19:44:55 <ehird> Please stop complaining about it.
19:45:34 <Rugxulo> if it wasn't an epidemic, I wouldn't care
19:45:45 <Rugxulo> but when everything (Python, Perl, etc.) all bloats up ad nauseum, it gets annoying
19:45:46 <fizzie> If you *have* to complain, you should compare compiled images containing a mostly-identical set of compiled-in drivers; it's not like the source size is so terribly important.
19:46:02 <SimonRC> Not only is the kernel getting bigger and bigger (including all the modules it uses) but they took years to add support for $obscure_hardware_that_noone_uses!
19:46:22 <ehird> <Rugxulo> IT INCREASES SIZE? Strip it out strip it out!
19:46:36 <ehird> <Rugxulo> Why doesn't Linux boot on my IBM PC after updating?
19:46:54 * Rugxulo found TinyPython, wonder if it's any good ...
19:47:28 <ehird> I think I've found a sudden affinity for the #esoteric-should-be-about-esolangs-only folks. I announce the new creation of ##bloat-epidemic.
19:48:04 <Rugxulo> good no bloat, only one user :-)
19:48:06 <SimonRC> but which would have the ColorForth discussion in it?>
19:48:23 <ehird> Rugxulo: IT WILL NEVER BE BLOATED WITH MORE PEOPLE
19:48:45 <Rugxulo> woot, optimal size now ;-)
19:49:05 <SimonRC> Rugxulo: you know what ColorForth is, right?
19:49:05 <madbrain> hmmm, making a hugely parallel cpu requires solving a few data routing problems:
19:49:36 <madbrain> (reverse Y) Routing problem (harder)
19:49:47 <madbrain> (feedback) Routing problem (even harder)
19:50:18 <ehird> madbrain: http://www.longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/
19:50:21 <madbrain> Memory address interference problem (even harder)
19:50:27 <ehird> Feynman solved 'em :-P
19:51:06 <Rugxulo> SimonRC, I've heard (and seen) a few websites on ColorForth, never used it personally though
19:51:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm having a nostalgia trip for OS 9 and older atm
19:51:46 <ehird> post-sys7 sucks hugely, post-sys6 sucks quite a bit
19:51:49 <AnMaster> ooh I found something on called "adobe golive 4.0.1" on my ibook. Didn't remember that.
19:52:02 <Rugxulo> sorry, I just find it annoying that Linux now requires more RAM than Win95 did HD space :-/
19:52:02 <ehird> os 9 sucks in a colossal manner unsurpassed by any other OS, even Windows
19:52:34 <ehird> madbrain: care to give me fixedsys's m?
19:53:52 <ehird> Well that's simple :P
19:54:18 <madbrain> fixedsys has 2-px wide vertical lines
19:55:43 <ehird> It's such a shame that optical illusion-style tricks don't really work at 7x10.
19:55:52 <ehird> At 4x3 I even faked the slant on the n...
19:59:31 * ehird tweaks bold c and e and maybe d and g to make the metrics more similar to bold a (and thus more similar to roman a, c, d, e and g)
20:00:06 <Sgeo> I think ehird's going to kill someone http://www.turtleflight.com/mbh/behavior_table.gif
20:00:19 <ehird> Sgeo the great repeater.
20:00:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I have both PPC and 68k emulated here :)
20:00:36 <Sgeo> Last time, when I posted that, you weren't here, iirc
20:00:42 <AnMaster> one is 7.5.5 the other being 9.0.4
20:00:43 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't care.
20:00:55 <ehird> Tweaking my characters feels so wrong; destroying my wonderful babies!
20:01:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo, what is that supposed to be?
20:01:20 <Sgeo> When you logread, I can't see your reaction
20:01:29 <Sgeo> AnMaster, Magsbot behavior table
20:01:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:01:52 <Sgeo> Magsbot: http://www.turtleflight.com/magine/mb.html
20:02:03 <ehird> Sgeo: You can see my reaction if you logread too.
20:03:09 <ehird> My tweaked characters are slightly uglier but more consistent :(
20:03:31 <ehird> Same prettiness now, exce—
20:03:38 <ehird> Oh, that must be why I tweaked them.
20:04:37 <ehird> They are more consistent, granted; but they do not look fat any more.
20:04:51 <ehird> The metrics are now matched, but the perceived metrics are ruined.
20:05:45 <ehird> Maybe if I put them back, and tweak the a instead...
20:06:15 <fizzie> What's a bit strange is that in this gnome-screensaver, there's a "leave a message" option; the message is then shown when the actual user unlocks the screen. The strangeness is in that the dialog showing the message has no special labels, just the message you leave; and it has both "Cancel" and "OK" buttons in it.
20:06:26 <Sgeo> http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/02/toxic-cities-pollution-lifestyle-real-estate-toxic-cities.html hm, maybe I shouldn't go to Pycon :/
20:07:27 <ehird> Yes, everyone in the cities listed there die days after arriving.
20:07:29 <fizzie> I left some sort of "aaaggagagah zombies!" message on ineiros' laptop the other day, and it was a bit confusing to see a mostly unlabeled "zombies! ok or cancel?" popup as a result.
20:07:44 <ehird> (Offensive, less sarcastic response: Translation: <Sgeo> Hurrrrrrrrrr)
20:08:13 <ehird> which did you click, be ehonest
20:08:44 <fizzie> It was him doing the screen-unlocking (and clicking), but I think it was "OK".
20:09:08 <ehird> ZOMBIES ARE NOT OK
20:10:00 <Sgeo> Magnatune's end-of-track ads ruin Riding the Faders :(
20:10:09 <fizzie> ehird: I think he's a zombie sympathizer.
20:10:10 <Gregor> They're OK if cooked well and served on toast with saurkraut and Russian dressing.
20:10:54 <Sgeo> All these tracks are supposed to be played without interuption
20:11:03 <ehird> That was at Gregor
20:11:07 <ehird> DO NOT GET OFFENDED SGEO :P
20:11:24 <Gregor> Although Sgeo's mom DOES ruin Riding the Faders.
20:11:35 <fizzie> ehird: See, here's a publicly available picture of him: http://irc-galleria.net/user/ineiros/picture/58380030
20:11:41 <Gregor> And Sgeo's mom is also supposed to be played without interruption.
20:11:51 <ehird> SHE IS ALSO DEAD DID I MENTION
20:11:58 <ehird> You must now feel bad like I felt bad.
20:12:07 <ehird> (I did not feel bad for oerjan because nobody cares about oerjan.)
20:12:16 <ehird> ((JOKE OKAY JOKE))
20:12:49 <ehird> fizzie: he looks ambiguously gendered
20:12:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:12:54 -!- puzzlet has joined.
20:14:35 <fizzie> ehird: Well, so's you!
20:16:32 -!- fungot has joined.
20:16:55 <fizzie> ^def source ul (http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S
20:19:13 -!- Rugxulo has left (?).
20:22:56 -!- Gregor has quit ("Leaving").
20:23:30 * ehird decides to go back to n later
20:24:08 <SimonRC> but it's such an addictive game
20:24:42 <ehird> dammit, someone link me to that unapproved-of swf'd N
20:24:53 <Sgeo> ...you mean that's not the official N game?
20:24:55 <ehird> need me some ninja-tappin' action ILLICITLY IN MY BROWSER
20:24:59 <ehird> Sgeo: it's identical
20:25:01 <ehird> extracted from the .exe thingy
20:25:23 <Sgeo> I thought that the .swf ... I didn't realize that it was intended to be distributed as a .exe
20:25:57 <ehird> Let me guess, I've shattered your infinite nostalgia and now your mind is blown in an incredibly profound way.
20:26:10 <Sgeo> I don't have N related nostalgia
20:27:46 <ehird> madbrain: what do you think of my lowercase k, by the way? I think I did quite well
20:28:23 <ehird> my bold uppercase k is a bit more iffy, though
20:29:09 <ehird> specifically, the lower bit looks like it's curved
20:29:33 <madbrain> you should make the serif go into the "forbidden area" instead
20:29:51 <ehird> but it's forbidden for a reason! :P
20:29:56 <ehird> it doesn't really look weird zoomed out tbh
20:30:01 <ehird> just a bit curvaceous
20:30:16 <madbrain> well, it'll connect a bit with the next letter, but that's ok actually
20:30:28 <ehird> well, I'll consider it
20:31:01 <madbrain> what doesn't work is when you have a whole line that connects :)
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20:32:10 <ehird> my g having no serif looks weird next to my p
20:32:21 <ehird> it's also wiider by one pixel in the maain area bit
20:32:21 <zzo38> What are you going to use these letters on?
20:32:31 <SimonRC> how abot replacing rows 8 and 9 with 0111100 0110110 ?
20:32:36 <ehird> It's a little pixel font at the best size (in my opinion) for English text!
20:32:40 <ehird> SimonRC: in which letter?
20:33:46 <ehird> no, the lack of serifs makes it look very weird
20:34:32 <ehird> umm, I'm not seeing it here
20:34:37 <ehird> maybe I drew it wrong; make a .png?
20:35:22 <ehird> wait, I think I see what you mean
20:35:43 <ehird> and doesn't fit with the other chars.
20:37:13 <SimonRC> I suppose it is ok for serifs to connect with other letters, because they are intended to keep the eye on the row
20:37:56 <ehird> i'm just using them for flavour ;-)
20:38:10 <ehird> you think it'll work there
20:38:17 <ehird> just looks shiteating and/or suggestive like always
20:39:46 <ehird> know what'll be horrific?
20:40:39 <madbrain> italics you could do by using the righmost row as spacing on the bottom, but the leftmost one on the top
20:43:00 <ehird> my r seems a bit crooked at the end! oh well, I can fix it later
20:45:39 <ehird> That was... worryingly easy.
20:46:51 <SimonRC> computers must really infuriate typesetters in some ways. Now everyone thinks that slanted is the same as italic
20:47:18 <ehird> Thankfully no systems nowadays ship with commonly-used fonts without proper italics.
20:50:44 <Sgeo> Some guy thinks he's going to start a company that.. resells publishing from pfmpricing.com or something. I basically told him that I'll help him set up the sample site, but I'm not putting any money, or much time, into what I feel is a scam
20:51:14 <ehird> Sgeo: offering help to people he thinks are scammers and then proceeding to tell us all about how he's not going to really try hard since 2009.
20:52:53 <Sgeo> I don't think this person is a scammer, just an idiot. It's pfm pricing's services that make me think "scam"
20:54:05 * ehird decides to go onto italics
20:54:26 <ehird> Sgeo: So why not tell him he's an idiot and... not help?
20:54:43 <ehird> madbrain: what did you say about italic spacing?
20:55:11 <Sgeo> Because it's very little effort to "help" in the way that I offered?
20:55:37 <ehird> Sgeo: So helping an idiot in a scam-related activity is fine as long as you (a) don't do much work and (b) tell us all about it?
20:56:41 <Sgeo> It's either I help him, or he pays $500 for the company to set something up.. although in the latter case, I suspect they'd tell him he misunderstands everything
20:57:27 <ehird> Helping an idiot save $500 to set up an idiotic scheme related to a scam? And thus, in your opinion, preventing an opportunity that might make him stop?
20:57:44 <ehird> Your logic keeps getting more and more robust! Wait, no, the other thing. Flimsy.
20:58:27 <Sgeo> At any rate, I seem to have lost contact with him, so it may be a moot point
20:59:12 <Sgeo> The bad thing about all this is, I was talking to him at the same time someone online was telling me about a project I support, so now my feelings about this guy have partially transferred over to the thing I support :/
20:59:36 <ehird> You have serious issues.
21:00:14 <SimonRC> Sgeo: the curse of indisciminant associative memory
21:00:25 <SimonRC> you should see what I have for some of the meeting roms in my office
21:00:58 <SimonRC> it's mostly a case of remembering the one every time the other is experienced
21:02:05 * ehird attempts to draw an italic glyph, fails horribly
21:05:14 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/raw_transcripts/Vyb_back_story.txt Now, if some people are more on than yesterday (when there was 8 hours with only join/quit), can you tell me if it is good, or if I missed anything?
21:05:51 <ehird> The universe didn't exist ten thousand years ago, and there's only one God. Why do you have Christians?
21:06:23 <zzo38> It is a Forgotten Realms campaign setting for D&D game
21:07:37 * Sgeo doesn't play D&D, but would somewhat like to get started
21:07:44 * Sgeo has GMed Paranoia
21:08:35 <Sgeo> When I played it, I was.. not that good
21:08:52 * Sgeo put himself in danger to save another troubleshooter >.>
21:08:53 <zzo38> This is 3.5 edition, which I would recommend
21:09:26 <zzo38> I can give some hints on 3.5 edition if you would like it too, because I played it and am good at defensive play in D&D
21:09:42 <ehird> http://imgur.com/PgUuU.jpg What's wrong with this picture? Answer via /msg.
21:10:50 <zzo38> I can see what's wrong
21:10:58 <zzo38> I can see what's wrong immediately
21:11:22 <SimonRC> the newspaper pose is a more subtle way to show that
21:11:41 <ehird> Bah, you're all too details-oriented. :P
21:11:58 <SimonRC> ehird: ooh, ooh ooh, let me try testing detail orientation
21:14:17 <SimonRC> avoid spoilers until you are done watching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voAntzB7EwE
21:14:51 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:14:53 <SimonRC> (also, ehird's picture has a seriously SBHJ level of jpeg artefacts)
21:15:02 <zzo38> Can you sent text messages by telephone by morse-code?
21:15:13 <Sgeo> SimonRC, seen it
21:15:26 <SimonRC> I got it from Phil Platt I think
21:15:36 <Sgeo> But I haven't found the issue with ehird's picture yet :/
21:15:44 <SimonRC> zzo38: depends on the phone
21:15:51 <Sgeo> ehird, I gave up
21:16:20 <SimonRC> zzo38: if it's a pocket computer, you can just download a morse-to-sms app
21:16:51 <SimonRC> Sgeo: ur unf fvk qvtvgf ba rnpu unaq
21:17:08 * ehird searches for a trackball
21:17:14 <ehird> SimonRC: i said no telling
21:17:16 <zzo38> However, I wonder if you can tell me a proper answer for the Vyb_back_story question, like, do you like this?, and, did I forget anything?, and, is it good?, and, etc.?
21:17:23 <Sgeo> SimonRC, um, no
21:17:41 <SimonRC> I don't know how to assess campign settings
21:17:47 <ehird> i didn't even notice that
21:18:51 <zzo38> SimonRC: I meant, like, if you have no keyboard and are sending from a standard telephone, or, if you do the reverse, SMS text -> landline. First it should check for fax and TTY, and then, send to voice by morse code, text-to-speech, or spell out, or numeric, etc, depending on some options
21:18:58 <ehird> grr, why aren't there more mice/trackballs with real third buttons as well as mousewheels
21:19:12 <Sgeo> Ok, so either SimonRC didn't get it either, or he was messing with me
21:19:46 <SimonRC> well, I didi spot something odd
21:20:12 <zzo38> The file is my character's background story text, in case you forgot or didn't know..
21:20:29 <SimonRC> no, I mean I did spot something odd that I then spelt out in rot-13 on the channel
21:20:38 <ehird> well it's not what i meant
21:24:09 <oklopol> no need to notice stuff you're not explicitly asked to notice
21:25:19 <Sgeo> oklopol, except when watching a magician
21:25:21 <SimonRC> for example studies of "lucky" and "unlucky" people tend to show that the lucky ones notice irrelevant details more easily
21:26:09 <oklopol> i'm a pretty stereotypical scientist, i have no idea what's going on
21:28:12 <zzo38> O, I have not heard of those studies. But it seems correct, a bit
21:29:14 <ehird> Sgeo: I'm just fucking with you, it's the fingers
21:29:38 <oklopol> the finger thing was trivial
21:29:47 <ehird> Sgeo: Quick! How much did I just shatter your world?
21:30:32 <SimonRC> TBH all it did to me was give me that slight sick feeling I get when people make me feel stupid in certain specific ways.
21:30:37 <oklopol> SimonRC: your rot13 is wrong
21:30:39 <Sgeo> Beyond my self-irritation that I didn't include that as a possibility when talking to SimonRC, not much
21:30:53 <oklopol> assuming i guessed the sentence correctly
21:31:00 <ehird> SimonRC: You're crazy! Just like everyone else here.
21:31:04 <oklopol> i don't know rot-13 anymore, it seems
21:31:15 <SimonRC> oklopol: it says "he has six digits on each hand"
21:31:34 <ehird> your MOTHER has etc.
21:31:42 <oklopol> i forgot there are synonyms
21:31:47 <ehird> grr, why aren't there any three button mice with separate wheels
21:32:15 <SimonRC> the wheel in the middle of the buton is a bit inconvinient
21:32:23 <SimonRC> or, you need the openoffice mouse
21:32:26 <ehird> that's why you put it at the very top
21:32:30 <SimonRC> with about a zillion buttons on it
21:32:55 <ehird> perfectly describes openoffice
21:33:21 <ehird> Preferably it'd be a trackball for me
21:33:27 <ehird> So, say, trackball on thumb,
21:33:36 <ehird> three buttons on the next fingers
21:33:45 <ehird> and a wheel below the third button, perhaps?
21:33:53 <ehird> Or perhaps between the first button and the wheel.
21:33:59 <SimonRC> This episode makes me recall the fucking Basil puzzle again, which made me lose my appetite a little for a day or two until I learnt to ignore it. Nevery again will I doubt plausibility when a character in some story become dangerously obsessed with something.
21:34:17 <ehird> Wait. OpenOfficeMouse ISN'T a joke?
21:34:19 <ehird> Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
21:34:32 <ehird> SimonRC: See, no, you were right to be skeptic.
21:34:42 <ehird> SimonRC: You just didn't account for the fact that you're crazy. :P
21:34:51 <ehird> "Nevery again will I doubt plausibility when a character in some story become dangerously obsessed with something."
21:35:04 <SimonRC> well if I can be that mad, they can be more than that mad
21:35:25 <SimonRC> it's the way that other people were finding it easy that I didn't like
21:35:42 <ehird> Terrible idea: Keyboardmouse. It's a keyboard you can move around!
21:35:49 <ehird> And it tracks as a mouse.
21:38:38 <SimonRC> Sgeo: might not exist now that nonlogic has gone down
21:39:23 <SimonRC> 'cause if that person didn't take backups of the website, they might want to contact me
21:39:51 <SimonRC> the website was world-readable on nonlogic, and I took a copy
21:40:01 <SimonRC> (then I told them it was world-readable)
21:40:17 <SimonRC> and nonlogic went down, so I expect they might want a backup
21:40:49 <SimonRC> if they didn't mak eone themselves
21:43:11 <ehird> Rodger created it.
21:43:33 <ehird> http://imgur.com/4OPEu.png I'd pay $100 for this trackball
21:43:44 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:44:00 -!- ehird has joined.
21:44:06 <ehird> he said, before crashing and burning.
21:45:00 <SimonRC> shouldn't amazon and he like had 100 differnt trackballs available?
21:45:18 <ehird> SimonRC: *have *different
21:45:28 <ehird> Also, nope. Basically nobody makes trackballs any moree.
21:45:44 <ehird> And the ones that exist are either pre-scroll wheel, or one-button-scroll-wheel-another-button.
21:45:53 <ehird> My design there is unique, as far as I can tell.
21:46:20 <SimonRC> get out a hacksaw and some glue?
21:46:21 <ehird> And far superior, too — you can use your... um... finger-right-of-thumb (I suck at the finger names) to scroll, which is much more comfortable than using your middle finger.
21:46:35 <ehird> And yet your other fingers can rest on the left and middle buttons.
21:46:45 <ehird> So you can follow links and open new tabs in a web browser while scrolling and mousing.
21:46:46 <zzo38> On Thursday, I was writing something and made up something a bit strange: Matrix accounting.
21:46:51 <SimonRC> and I use my index finger on ordinary mice too
21:47:04 <ehird> More comfortable, almost as easy to access, much better middle button usage.
21:47:07 <ehird> SOMEONE MAKE IT QUICK
21:47:08 <SimonRC> zzo38: sounds like Matrix management
21:47:21 <zzo38> Matrix accounting is accounting, but with matrix math.
21:47:28 <ehird> tbh that design is inferior to what a real product would be; the trackball should be lower
21:47:30 <ehird> But whatever, it's close enough.
21:47:41 <zzo38> It is not very good for recording transactions, but everything else it does correctly
21:47:49 <oklopol> in what sense is it the first one
21:47:50 <ehird> FAWN OVER IT, PEOPLE
21:47:51 <SimonRC> zzo38: the concepts "creative" and "accounting" should not go together
21:47:55 <zzo38> Like, everything in normal accounting has conversions here
21:48:03 -!- Gregor has joined.
21:48:08 <zzo38> You would never actually use it for recording transactions and stuff.
21:48:14 <oklopol> i guess fingers are zero-indexed.
21:48:18 <ehird> SimonRC: also, a hacksaw and glue probably wouldn't help.
21:48:29 <SimonRC> Gregor: are you the guy who nade the basil puzzle?
21:48:41 <zzo38> At first I wrote it to figure out how to represent partnership agreements in a matrix. And then I realized that everything in accounting can be represented this way.
21:49:12 <ehird> rodger the great edible mountain
21:49:25 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
21:49:32 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:49:42 * Sgeo WTFs at his um, trackpad
21:50:06 <Sgeo> I accidentally touch it, and it closes out of a tab
21:50:25 <Sgeo> Also, ehird reminded me that I'm hungry >.>
21:50:38 <ehird> I'm really hungry and really tired but too lazy to eat or sleep.
21:50:58 <ehird> Oh, and the trackball ought to include a foam rest fit to the trackball's shape.
21:51:24 <oklopol> i'm so full it hurts, but i'm also very thirsty, which is not a good combination, and i'm also too lazy to sleep even though i'm tired
21:52:23 <SimonRC> is that really a bad combination?
21:52:38 <ehird> SimonRC: can't drink but have to?
21:53:10 <SimonRC> the trick is not to eat that much
21:53:12 <ehird> ooh, what a fun prompt
21:53:18 <ehird> ": prompt goes here; "
21:53:22 <oklopol> SimonRC: but it's all-you-can-eat
21:53:25 <ehird> you can execute it and it's just a nop
21:53:34 <ehird> so copy-and-middle-click command repeating becomes easy
21:53:35 * Sgeo recalls people saying that human thirst is broken, but not sure what is meant by that
21:53:45 <oklopol> but also pizza, and that's why i'm so full.
21:54:07 <Sgeo> I used to literally live on pizza
21:54:19 <oklopol> YOU MEAN YOU LIVED ON A GIANT...
21:54:50 <SimonRC> I can't easily eat pizza until I'm full. I lack the practice to absorb that much fat at once and find myself not wanting to eat more even though there is room.
21:54:52 <oklopol> on my last year of high school i basically spent all my days sitting in my armchair eating pizza and watching tv series
21:55:05 <ehird> I have a ridiculously fast metabolism
21:55:16 <SimonRC> I guess my parent brought me up too healthily.
21:55:17 <ehird> and so I am always so thin as to be considered dangerously underweight no matter how much I eat!
21:55:25 <ehird> if you like being bothered all the time
21:55:40 * Sgeo just doesn't have much of an urge to eat
21:56:03 <SimonRC> people always miss out part of the energy equation...
21:56:06 <ehird> well i wouldn't go that far
21:56:23 <madbrain> well, then don't buy the crap food
21:56:33 <SimonRC> delta fat = energy in * digestive efficiency - energy expended
21:57:01 <SimonRC> I often see people forgetting that differnet peopl absorb different amounts of energy from the same food
21:57:27 <SimonRC> like, if you practice for an eating competition, your digention becomes faster therefore less effective
21:57:32 <ehird> $ PS1='$(echo ~+)$ '
21:57:32 <ehird> feel free to say "wat"
21:57:35 <ehird> $ PS1='$(echo ~+)$ '
21:57:44 <ehird> "A ~ followed by a + or - is replaced by the value
21:57:44 <ehird> of $PWD and $OLDPWD respectively."
21:59:08 <Sgeo> What software do most people use to make those videos that are just pictures and music?
21:59:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
21:59:36 <SimonRC> I don't know if that is a good suggestion or not
22:00:02 <ehird> Making such an annoying video is a bad idea in itself.
22:00:18 <Sgeo> Also: 20 minute tribute video consisting of pictures and music: Good idea or bad idea?
22:00:47 <SimonRC> depends on how well it is done and what it is about
22:01:03 <ehird> Bad idea bad idea bad idea bad IDEA.
22:01:23 <Sgeo> It's about a game called Mutation
22:01:49 <SimonRC> arrgh IRC is such a fucking time-sink
22:02:02 <Sgeo> Although the only reason it's 20min long is because that's the sum of how long all the music from the game as
22:02:27 <ehird> SimonRC: so go do something else.
22:03:09 <oklopol> SimonRC: do like me and try to do something useful on the side
22:03:18 <oklopol> and do unlike me and manage to actually do it
22:03:26 <oklopol> or should i say undo like me
22:05:08 <oklopol> yeah that might work even better
22:29:19 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:36:44 <ehird> Permission is granted to copy, modify and distribute this work.
22:36:45 <ehird> THERE IS NO WARRANTY.
22:36:46 <ehird> is the best license, or if the permission to use software really isn't implicit, then
22:36:50 <ehird> Permission is granted to use, copy, modify and distribute this work.
22:36:54 <ehird> THERE IS NO WARRANTY.
22:55:12 <augur> the problem with madbrain is that he doesnt know what the fuck hes talking about
22:55:22 <augur> so while he may seem interesting, its only because he's full of shit
22:55:23 <ehird> Decisive. Aggressive!
22:55:33 <augur> i just bought a popcorn maker.
22:55:56 <ehird> When you cause ehird to jump back in surprise at the offensiveness of an instance of insulting, you know you're on the edge.
22:56:07 <ehird> Well, okay, I didn't *physically* jump back.
22:56:25 <ehird> I suggest saying that augur is full of shit.
22:57:04 <augur> ehird, check it out
22:57:13 <augur> ive invented a cute little model of syntax, very simple
22:57:33 <ehird> The problem with augur is that he presents everything really shittily.
22:57:36 <augur> and it manages to explain to largely inexplicable phenomena in one fell swoop
22:57:43 <ehird> So while he may seem really boring, it's only because he's not full of shit.
22:57:49 <ehird> Wait, that didn't work.
22:58:12 <ehird> No, the latter statement failed.
22:58:18 <ehird> Feynman was interesting and not full of shit.
22:58:23 <ehird> do you know madbrain from elsewhere, incidentally?
22:58:33 <ehird> or are you just really aggressive :P
22:58:55 <augur> he just has a really weird notion of what qualifies as the information content of a string of phonemes
22:59:05 <augur> the problem is that its incredibly difficult to compute that
22:59:20 <ehird> is that relevant to whether it's a good model or not?
22:59:32 <ehird> is that really a problem
22:59:35 <ehird> that it's hard to compute
23:00:23 <augur> its a problem if you're making claims about the information content of a string of phonemes, yes.
23:02:54 <augur> wanna know about my little model of syntax? x3
23:03:49 <augur> there are only three core operations!
23:05:53 <ehird> i used to think the bit-measurement when people say things like "english gets 6 b/s" was actual informational content
23:06:00 <ehird> like, it actually carries 6 bits of actual information
23:06:03 <ehird> not just distinct elements of the language
23:06:10 <augur> but see thats very hard to quantify
23:06:14 <ehird> and i kept wondering how people worked out the exact actual bit contents of some information
23:06:30 <ehird> and also how come things on earth about humans can be 6 bits
23:06:36 <ehird> i mean, we're enumerating the entire logical space here :P
23:06:56 <augur> so let me tell you my little mode
23:06:58 <ehird> then i realised it was not that awesome
23:07:00 <ehird> and it was so boring
23:07:02 <ehird> and you're so boring
23:07:10 <zzo38> :Have I written this spell good and correctly: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/Suppress_Lycanthropy.txt
23:07:27 <ehird> i did not write that word good and correctly
23:09:17 <augur> oh ok here we go ehird
23:09:30 <augur> here is my model of All Human Language Syntax
23:09:41 <ehird> and i hate you augur
23:10:05 <ehird> and i have thought of something i haven't actually tried, i'm going to put you on /ignore because i am like, fight or flight here
23:10:12 <ehird> and i can't kill you over the internet
23:10:27 <AnMaster> ehird, heh? you are ignoring augur?
23:10:37 <ehird> and so i am going to have to flight by which i mean /ignore goodbye temporarily please do not take it personally thank you i will probably logread because i have no self control bye
23:10:51 <ehird> okay logreading now./
23:11:10 <augur> anmaster! wanna know about language? :o
23:11:17 <ehird> you are sad don't be sad NO I NEVER READ THAT
23:11:20 <ehird> i never read your lines
23:11:25 <augur> youll LITERALLY be the first person other than me to know this stuff
23:12:37 <ehird> it's kinda lonely without augur babbling
23:12:47 <ehird> i mean it's okay when it's just normal silence
23:12:52 <ehird> but this is silence sans augur babbling
23:12:56 <ehird> which is like... explicit silence
23:12:59 <ehird> it is of my own doing
23:13:00 <ehird> and it is my undoing
23:13:08 <ehird> therefore my doing is my undoing and all my acts are wrong
23:13:20 <ehird> i would jump out of a window but since that is a thing that i would do it is clearly the wrong thing to do
23:13:28 <AnMaster> <augur> anmaster! wanna know about language? :o <-- noooooo
23:14:29 <ehird> AnMaster: i do not suggest /ignore as a remedy it causes extreme cancer of the sadness organ
23:14:34 <ehird> (it's a church organ)
23:14:34 <AnMaster> ehird, but isn't then not doing it something you would do?
23:14:43 <ehird> inaction is not action
23:15:00 <AnMaster> ehird, hehe I read that as "church oerjan" first
23:15:32 <ehird> your most excellency augur,
23:15:45 <ehird> please telepathically transdivinate whether me unignoring you would result in unpleasant babbling
23:15:53 <ehird> or perhaps a return to serene silence, not this noisy, upsetting silence
23:15:57 <ehird> yours truly sincerely,
23:16:00 <AnMaster> ehird, conjecture: you can not decide (by free will) to do something you wouldn't do.
23:16:07 <ehird> AnMaster: you ruined my beautiful letter
23:16:12 <AnMaster> (you could be forced to though)
23:16:24 <AnMaster> ehird, oops didn't see. I was busy writing it
23:16:27 <ehird> now you are cluttering my name space and augur thinks my name is <AnMaster> ehird, conjecture: you can not decide (by free will) to do something you wouldn't do.
23:16:48 <ehird> your absolute excellent-champion augur,
23:16:56 <ehird> please discard this letter
23:17:06 <zzo38> I know this spell I wrote is an exception to the general rule for creating potions. But I made it like this anyways.
23:17:09 <ehird> your above-excellent super-liminal superlative augur,
23:17:13 <ehird> my name is in fact elliott hird
23:17:30 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't laughed out
23:17:39 <ehird> it was fine at my end AND THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERS
23:17:42 <ehird> for I am a solipsist
23:17:53 <ehird> i am the only client that exists.
23:18:02 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you still on irc then
23:18:14 <ehird> it's the only game you can play on macs.
23:18:31 <AnMaster> ehird, if you have classic you can play quite a few more at least
23:18:34 <ehird> i use macintosh system software 5
23:18:43 <ehird> system 6 is too bloated for my meagre brain
23:18:51 <ehird> i don't actually own a macintosh, i just execute the instructions in my head
23:19:24 <ehird> well the physical world isn't real either, so everything is in my head really
23:19:28 <ehird> but it sounds better this way...
23:20:07 <ehird> dear augury augur,
23:20:14 <ehird> i substantiate the unignorance of your persona.
23:20:16 <ehird> very lovely day time,
23:20:24 <ehird> dear augury augur,
23:20:27 <ehird> i mean night time.
23:20:30 <ehird> very lovely correction time,
23:20:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> very lovely correction time,
23:20:51 <augur> HOW ABOUT SUKKY SUKKY LOVE YOU LONG TIME?
23:21:16 <ehird> apostrophes are awesome
23:21:21 <ehird> NOT THAT YOU'D EVER KNOW THAT
23:21:24 <ehird> because you didn't use them
23:21:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean single-quotes?
23:21:58 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway augur doesn't use them a lot either
23:22:05 <ehird> yes, and i hate him too
23:22:11 <ehird> anyway, now for a bout of semi-coheerency
23:22:25 <ehird> http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/images/enhpc.gif
23:22:26 <ehird> ONE KEYBOARD TO RULE THEM ALL
23:22:28 <ehird> ONE KEYBOARD TO FIND THEM
23:22:31 <ehird> ONE KEYBOARD TO BRING THEM ALL
23:22:39 <ehird> AND IN THE SCANCODES BIND THEM
23:22:40 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/syntax.html
23:22:55 <AnMaster> augur, nice link (as a contrast)
23:22:58 <ehird> "One multi-function keyboard layout that tries to combine all the functions of:
23:22:59 <ehird> The normal 104/105-key PC keyboard
23:22:59 <ehird> The 122-key terminal emulation keyboard
23:22:59 <ehird> The Sun keyboard (notice the HELP key on the left)
23:22:59 <ehird> An APL keyboard (APL symbols are on the right half of the keys)
23:23:00 <ehird> A LISP keyboard of the Space Cadet variety (Meta, Super, and Hyper... and the symbols on the left half of the keys, even unshifted (. ). and :)"
23:23:45 <ehird> all it needs is a trackpoint, a trackpad, a trackball, a mousing surface and a tablet
23:23:55 <ehird> and you can just drop it on your desk and sit there FOREVER
23:24:06 <ehird> AnMaster: unshifted ( ) :
23:24:15 <ehird> (Meta, Super, […] (. ). and :)
23:24:30 <ehird> tbh I'd probably buy a keyboard like that
23:24:35 <augur> anmaster: INNIT AWESOME?
23:24:41 <AnMaster> ehird, why are there two sysrq?
23:24:43 <augur> thats a whole theory of syntax right there.
23:24:49 <ehird> AnMaster: one's print screen/sys req
23:24:50 <augur> you think im joking but
23:24:54 <ehird> and one's a one-key sysreq
23:25:03 <ehird> AnMaster: just like there's shifted and unshifted ()
23:25:11 <ehird> there'd be something satisfying about lobbing that thing on your desk
23:25:17 <ehird> like, the feeling of being able to control everything
23:25:20 <ehird> all you'd ever need
23:25:20 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you set the "mode" or something?
23:25:28 <ehird> AnMaster: shift or something, who cares
23:25:39 <ehird> it'd have to be made with capacitive buckling springs, like the Model F
23:25:44 <ehird> even older, and more clicky, than the Model M
23:25:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it needs localised versions for all possible languages. ALL IN ONE
23:25:59 <ehird> and it'd have to have a huge bezel
23:26:09 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and both qwerty and dvorak
23:26:13 <ehird> in that classic beige
23:26:53 <ehird> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF8"?>
23:26:54 <ehird> super_merge ([F<sub>...</sub>, X<sub>...</sub><sup>...F</sup>, ...], H, P) = ([X<sub>...</sub><sup>...</sup> → F<sub>...</sub> X<sub>...</sub><sup>...F</sup>, ...], H ∪ {F<sub>...</sub>}, P)
23:26:55 <ehird> sub_merge ([F, X<sub>...F</sub>, ...], H, P) = ([X<sub>...</sub> → F X<sub>...F</sub>, ...], F, P ∪ {F<sub>...</sub>})
23:26:58 <ehird> augur: you fail at XML forever.
23:27:12 <ehird> also HTML, also XHTML, also choosing sane markup formats, also at writing markup in said format
23:27:39 <augur> its supposed to be quick and dirty
23:28:02 <ehird> then why is the fucking xml declaration there
23:28:16 <ehird> heck, firefox won't even render that
23:28:24 <ehird> it'll take one look at it and spew out an XML error
23:28:49 <augur> the declaration is there fore unicode.
23:28:56 <ehird> <meta charset=utf-8>
23:29:08 <ehird> congratulations, you fail at quick and dirty hacks!
23:30:13 <augur> doesnt work properly tho
23:30:50 <ehird> yeah, you did it stupidly.
23:31:08 <ehird> put <!doctype html> as the first like, replace <br/> with <br>, and it'll work juuuuuuuust fine.
23:31:31 <augur> its the unicode that doesnt work, cuntface
23:32:17 <ehird> I retract my advice, though. Cuntface.
23:33:00 * augur fucks you up so hard
23:33:44 <ehird> I was so much happier when I was ignoring you.
23:36:25 <ehird> that is decidedly not an improvement.
23:36:38 <augur> its the best i can do :(
23:36:59 <ehird> now it's at least ten times as shitty as the last iteration.
23:37:15 <ehird> funny, adding that <!doctype html> to the start was all you needed to have valid html5.
23:37:21 <ehird> and also to trigger standards mode
23:37:24 <ehird> which would have fixed shit.
23:37:37 <augur> except i did that ehird :(
23:37:40 <augur> and it didnt work :(
23:38:01 <ehird> well fix your fucking server and get it to send the right content-type header, that is my suggestion
23:38:29 -!- iamcal has quit.
23:40:05 <augur> http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/syntax.html
23:40:27 <AnMaster> super_merge [([F..., X......F, ...], H, P), ...] = [([X...... → F... X......F, ...], H ∪ {F...}, P), ...]
23:40:27 <AnMaster> sub_merge [([F, X...F, ...], H, P), ...] = [([X... → F X...F, ...], F, P ∪ {F...}), ...]
23:40:27 <AnMaster> adjoin [([Y, ...], Hi, Pi), ([X, ...], Hj, Pj), ...] = [([X → Y X, ...], Hj, Pj), ...]
23:40:33 <AnMaster> if that is what it should look like
23:40:47 <AnMaster> looks correct when pasted in irc client
23:41:10 <augur> so yeh, thats the theory of syntax :o
23:41:29 <AnMaster> augur, pretty. But I have no clue what it means
23:41:59 <augur> ok the things that look like X...f with the ...f in subscripts, and nothing in superscripts
23:42:03 <AnMaster> super_merge [([F[...], X[...]^...F, ...], H, P), ...] = [([X[...]^... [...] X[...]^...F, ...], H F[...]}, P), ...]
23:42:03 <AnMaster> sub_merge [([F, X[...F], ...], H, P), ...] = [([X[...] X[...F], ...], F, P F[...]}), ...]
23:42:03 <AnMaster> adjoin [([Y, ...], H[i], P[i]), ([X, ...], H[j], P[j]), ...] = [([X X, ...], H[j], P[j]), ...]
23:42:07 <augur> that means "An X that needs an f"
23:42:22 <augur> well ok let me rephrase that
23:42:23 <AnMaster> augur, I DIDN'T ASK WHAT IT MEANT
23:42:29 <AnMaster> I just said I didn't understand it
23:43:03 <AnMaster> augur, maybe. But I'm sure there are stuff I'm better at
23:43:44 <ehird> grammar argh fix it
23:44:20 <ehird> augur: it is manifestly inferior to anything else because it's xhtml.
23:44:30 <ehird> not even that; inconsistently-capitalised xhtml
23:44:39 <ehird> not even sure that's valid.
23:44:45 <ehird> AnMaster: there is stuff i'm better at
23:45:24 <AnMaster> ehird, am you sure about that?
23:45:48 <ehird> FUCK DEATH DIE ARGH RAGE
23:46:08 <AnMaster> ehird, why is you reacting this strongly to it?
23:46:37 <ehird> you did it in that line
23:46:39 <ehird> FUUUCK ARGH sfjgsdiofhgljh
23:46:43 <ehird> i'm so tired i didn't notice
23:46:48 <ehird> i can't trust ANYTHING that happens until I sleep
23:46:52 <ehird> am I even actually typing this?
23:46:57 <ehird> does my computer actually exist?
23:47:16 <AnMaster> ehird, well you asserted you were the *only* thing existing before
23:47:37 <AnMaster> you are the only thing *not* exisiting
23:47:54 <ehird> man i am freaking out!
23:47:59 <ehird> would you tell that to someone on drugs?
23:48:04 <ehird> THEN DON'T TELL ME WHEN I'M TIRED
23:48:13 <ehird> no, but same thing basically
23:48:48 <AnMaster> and we are all dreaming that we exist
23:48:52 <ehird> maybe nothing exists
23:49:09 <ehird> you peoplecentricitythingy
23:49:22 <AnMaster> I meant "nothing" though probably
23:52:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, except since ∀x(Human(x) → Existance(x) → 0) that "more" is insignificant
23:52:48 <AnMaster> (note to self: don't mix syntax from different parts of math like that, it's confusing)
23:53:01 <AnMaster> the second arrow is "limit" the first is "implies"
23:53:51 <AnMaster> great what the hell. That wasn't supposed to happen.
23:53:52 <ehird> note to AnMaster, don't futz together some random mathematical notation in a blatantly obvious "look at me i know mathematics"
23:55:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it fucked up anyway. Some sort of shuffle even when that was disabled
23:55:23 * AnMaster sighs and note he should go back to the command line alternative again. Works better.
23:55:44 <ehird> i care, i really care, i'm trying to care, don't be a bastard
23:55:49 <ehird> i really don't care.
23:56:20 <ehird> [23:55] • AnMaster sighs and note he should go back to the command line alternative again. Works better.
23:56:44 <ehird> i rolled my finger along the home row
23:56:51 <ehird> and it hit the spiky edge of my enter key
23:56:57 <ehird> propped up slightly
23:56:59 <ehird> as it's a bit broken
23:57:05 <AnMaster> ehird, oooh nice spiky keyboard
23:57:05 <ehird> (scissor-switch board = sharp key edges)
23:57:19 <ehird> i think everyone is sleeping in this housees or something
23:58:10 <ehird> "A trackball mouse with a foot pedal!"
23:58:14 <ehird> what a wonderful idea!
23:58:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the pedal would be for?
23:58:53 <fizzie> Trackball mice for your toes.
23:59:00 <AnMaster> ehird, would be trivial to wire up to the toe brakes of some flightsim rudder pedals
23:59:02 <fizzie> Get some use out of those buggers.
23:59:05 <ehird> "In the Cool Accessories Dept., the TopTrack comes with a silver and gold fabric mouse cozy. A mouse cozy! My wife wonders why anyone would need to keep a mouse warm. Obviously she has no heart. Personally, I can see reasons for modem cozies as well."
23:59:07 <AnMaster> then you would have left/right click
23:59:12 <ehird> fizzie: No, heels!
23:59:14 <AnMaster> ehird, just a few lines in the X config I expect
23:59:29 <ehird> needs to be a good foot pedal though
23:59:32 <ehird> no gradual action needed
23:59:36 <ehird> needs to be tactile
23:59:58 <ehird> i sure am looking forward to never double-clicking again