00:00:06 <AnMaster> and yeah those are all analogue inputs
00:00:09 <oklopol> ∀x(Human(x) → Existance(x) → 0) <<< so what exactly is the natural topology of implications? i'm having a hard time interpreting this
00:00:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, eh? Are you saying precedence order?
00:00:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, as I said the second one is NOT an implication, but a limit
00:01:44 <AnMaster> ∀x(Human(x) →[implies] (Existance(x) →[limit] 0))
00:03:12 <ehird> incidentally, did you know that ed is fun and advanced?!
00:03:18 <oklopol> i know the second one is a limit
00:03:21 <ehird> 390 being output from ed
00:03:26 <ehird> loads the result of `ls` into the buffer
00:03:27 <oklopol> i just don't know what limits mean for implications
00:03:32 <oklopol> so i'm asking what their natural topology is
00:03:35 <ehird> replaces start of line with "less " in all lines
00:03:39 <ehird> and writes it to a shell
00:03:48 <ehird> bet you didn't know it could do that
00:03:55 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i just don't know what limits mean for implications <-- nothing.
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00:04:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, in this case however "being human implies your "existence level" goes towards 0"
00:05:11 <oklopol> oh should've read your "clearer" thingie, since i indeed misinterpreted what's limit is being taken
00:05:55 <ehird> admire how cool ed actually is!
00:06:06 <ehird> incidentally the same things work in vi by putting : in front.
00:06:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, fair enough. It wasn't exactly standard notation (to put it mildly)
00:06:32 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: well, yeah
00:06:37 <ehird> ex is a subset of ed after all
00:22:35 * Sgeo loves how worlds in AW can set what should only be settable by the user
00:23:53 <Sgeo> Forcing me to, say, have a visibility of 100m is obnoxious for those on poorer graphics cards
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00:24:46 * ehird toys with the idea of registering in Active Worlds, invading everywhere and setting up scripts that ruins everything
00:24:51 <ehird> Idea rejection ticket
00:25:13 <Sgeo> AnMaster, it's called sarcasm
00:25:25 <ehird> we are execu-fucking tive
00:25:28 <ehird> and we make decisions now
00:25:31 <ehird> and move onto other decisions
00:25:34 <ehird> and make the SHIT out of them
00:25:37 <ehird> EXECU-FUCKING TIVE
00:25:43 <Sgeo> ehird, um, the worse you can do is make something to destroy all tourist property in, say, AWTeen
00:25:43 <ehird> fucking corporate and all that shit.
00:25:54 <ehird> Sgeo: i'm sure i could figure out something
00:25:56 <ehird> AnMaster: observant it is indeed night
00:26:01 <ehird> i notice you omitted the arrow
00:26:13 <Sgeo> Or maybe spam goatse in public areas
00:26:21 <ehird> speaking of fucking corporate decisions and shit
00:26:23 <ehird> http://buttersafe.com/2008/08/21/corporate-finance/
00:26:26 <Sgeo> Although that's more of an AWNewbie problem
00:26:35 <Sgeo> No one goes to AWNewbie anymore, so
00:27:51 <Sgeo> There are some X rated worlds in AW >.>
00:29:03 <ehird> i cannot think of a single meaning of >.> there that isn't creepy or sad.
00:29:40 <Sgeo> Arguably, the fact that I know that there are X rated worlds is what I thought was suspicious
00:29:56 <Sgeo> (They're not accessible without setting an option to allow one to see them)
00:30:10 <ehird> are you trying to make things worse
00:30:20 <Sgeo> I haven't actually been to one
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01:16:56 <Gregor> Nobody's pwned codu through Hackiki yet.
01:29:33 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur.
01:30:12 <Gregor> Come on augur, pwn codu!
01:30:32 <Gregor> Or rather, the box that runs that.
01:30:48 <augur> and you're challenging people to hack it?
01:30:57 <Gregor> http://hackiki.codu.org/
01:31:04 <Gregor> I'm just surprised that I could put that up and NOT see somebody hack it.
01:31:09 <ehird> i will do it Gregor if you will entertain my talk!
01:31:30 <Gregor> How does one entertain someone's talk ...
01:31:38 <augur> gregor, i dont get it
01:31:42 <augur> what are we supposed to do
01:32:04 <ehird> /bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/'
01:32:07 <Gregor> augur: It's a wiki that runs nearly-arbitrary code. Figure out how to escape its security restrictions and kill codu people!
01:32:34 <ehird> /bin/rm: cannot remove `/bin': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/dev': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/etc': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/hackiki': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/lib64': Permission denied /bin/rm: cannot remove `/tmp': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cannot remove `/usr': Function not implemented /bin/rm: cann
01:32:35 <ehird> remove `/var': Function not implemented
01:32:37 <augur> can i suggest it to adrian lamo?
01:32:48 <augur> or would that be too cruel to do to the codu server?
01:32:58 <ehird> ooh, look at augur, it's time for his special show
01:33:05 <ehird> Look At Me I Am Totally In Bed With A Leet Haxor
01:33:07 <Gregor> Because it's easily reverted.
01:33:13 <augur> im not in bed with adrian lamo. :|
01:33:49 <Gregor> That is a solvable problem.
01:33:54 <ehird> Gregor: entertaining someone's talk is answering their all important questions about death.
01:33:56 <augur> but that would require money
01:34:05 <augur> besides, he's got a boybitch
01:34:16 <Gregor> augur: YOU COULD BE THAT BOYBITCH
01:34:37 <Gregor> augur: Also a solvable problem! Just a more complicated one to solve.
01:34:49 <ehird> /hackiki/bin/.wiki: line 3: tree: command not found
01:35:17 <ehird> /bin/ls: bin: Function not implemented
01:35:17 <ehird> /bin/ls: lib: Function not implemented
01:35:18 <ehird> /bin/ls: templates: Function not implemented
01:35:19 <Gregor> ehird: Why don't you just use the arbitrary command runner.
01:35:24 <Gregor> So long as you're just running arbitrary commands ...
01:35:44 <Gregor> You're supposed to cause irreversible damage to codu, not trivially-reversible damage to the wiki.
01:35:47 <ehird> ANYWAY ENTERTAIN MY BARK
01:35:54 <ehird> which is tree bark
01:36:04 <Gregor> I don't want to answer questions about death :P
01:36:44 <Sgeo> Is it reverted yet?
01:37:22 <HackEgo> bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.20700
01:38:00 <ehird> Gregor: http://hackiki.codu.org/wiki/
01:38:15 <ehird> aw it doesn't work
01:38:55 <Gregor> ehird: Hack CODU, not end users ;)0
01:39:56 <ehird> still doesens't work :(
01:40:12 <ehird> Gregor: it irreversibly damages codu's readerbase
01:40:23 <ehird> fuck what was my q— oh yes
01:40:33 <ehird> Gregor: i'm going to bother you some more about wearable computing MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
01:40:37 <ehird> i am so evil. evil and tired
01:41:18 <Gregor> OK, ask fast 'cuz I'll be gone at any minute :P
01:41:27 <ehird> ;_; but i am le tired
01:41:39 <ehird> i think i have a nap at this point, then fire ze missiles
01:41:52 <ehird> Gregor: okay so since the myvu thing is only 640x480
01:41:56 <ehird> and you have the dpi set up really high
01:42:01 <ehird> don't you only fit like
01:42:18 <Gregor> Quite a few more than there, but it's pretty few, yes.
01:42:31 <Gregor> More than THREE that is
01:42:44 <ehird> how many lines of ~80col text would you guess
01:43:24 <Gregor> Well, I don't think it can display 80-column rows :P
01:43:37 <ehird> okay methinks i may need to find non-myvu options
01:43:44 <ehird> Gregor: how well is it operating btw
01:43:53 <Gregor> Works great, I use it for PIM-ish stuff.
01:44:04 <ehird> wow, an actual practical wearable computing application?
01:44:17 <augur> anyone know when /me was invented?
01:44:21 <ehird> i'm crazy enough to want to use my not-yet-existing one for programming
01:44:26 <augur> or was that an original feature of irc?
01:44:29 <ehird> augur: with ctcp. maybe slightly earlier
01:44:48 <ehird> Gregor: the main barrier to programming is the screen and the keyboard, right?
01:45:24 <ehird> screen I have no idea, keyboard I think my current plan is to use a FrogPad since it's tiny and has big keys and stuff
01:45:28 <ehird> and is apparently usable for real typing
01:45:43 <ehird> I'd prefer something with mechanical keyswitches because tactile response is quite important, but those are all heavy.
01:46:03 <ehird> done anything with that tiny metal keyboard? PIM stuff doesn't really use it...
01:48:53 <ehird> that lag is him typing on his tiny metal keyboard after leaving.
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02:10:52 <ehird> have your builder thingy do
02:10:56 <ehird> ln -s $(which interp) .
02:11:02 <ehird> then in your interpreted program just do
02:11:20 <ehird> only works in the same dir though...
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02:35:30 <augur> help me pic a watch
02:35:30 <augur> http://www.kennethcole.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3579841
02:35:32 <augur> http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=249949&CategoryID=29196
02:35:33 <augur> http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=379381&CategoryID=31167
02:35:35 <augur> http://www1.macys.com/catalog/product/index.ognc?ID=377836&CategoryID=29205
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02:43:49 <ehird> augur: i recommend a watch that costs $5.
02:44:26 <ehird> better yet, a smartphone that also — gasp — doubles up as a watch
02:47:30 <ehird> (ponder: does being indirectly told to reevaluate your priorities by someone who considers spending $250 on a keyboard sane mean that you're really off the deep end, or just have different priorities?)
02:47:36 <ehird> (Just joking, it's the former)
02:55:49 * Sgeo would like to have a separate watch from his cell phone
02:56:10 <Sgeo> Not an expensive one, just so I don't have to take out my cell phone constantly. Especially during tests or in the rain
02:56:39 <ehird> Get a wrist computer, or better— a wearable computer!
02:56:53 <ehird> I think Ludwig Mies van der Rohe would like a word with you, though.
02:56:59 <ehird> Ornament is crime, after all. You could get arrested.
02:57:06 <ehird> Wait, that was Adolf Loos.
02:57:12 <ehird> Oh, who cares, they're all the same.[1]
02:57:19 <ehird> [1] Apologies to all three architects out there
02:58:43 <ehird> Why hasn't anyone invented a general better syntax for writing things since LaTeX.
02:58:52 <ehird> (that is, the \cmd{arg} construction)
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04:12:52 <fax> I have an idea for a new language
04:13:05 <fax> it's called GPL and every valid program starts with the GPL license
04:13:20 <fax> (which is treated as a comment but without it the compiler will error)
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06:19:54 <augur> log-reading ehird, i have an iphone.
06:21:00 <augur> fax: does your name happen to be richard stallman?
06:25:28 <fax> richard `rms` stallman
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07:18:48 <fax> hey bsmntbombdood :)
07:24:27 <fax> I run out of steam :P
07:30:42 <fax> I don't think you are
07:39:39 <fax> bsmntspacedood I am watching sealab 2021
07:40:21 <fax> <http://www.sealab2021x.com/season-1/stimutacs/>
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12:40:43 <ehird> 22:19:54 <augur> log-reading ehird, i have an iphone.
12:40:43 <ehird> Then do not buy a watch.
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13:09:26 <ehird> http://ninite.com/ Windows users discover the package manager... uh, installer.
13:16:46 <oklopol> google earth is file sharing?
13:17:12 <ehird> share dem geographamagical location filezzz
13:17:42 <oklopol> i was thinking you could take pictures of places they don't have ones for yet :P
13:18:38 <oklopol> wait they have like 5 apps everyone already has
13:18:48 <oklopol> well more like 40 but anyway
13:18:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> Then do not buy a watch. <-- what about during tests? You aren't allowed to have a cell phone then
13:19:12 <ehird> Any number of things?
13:19:33 <ehird> (Among them moving to Denmark; they let you use the internetwebs now. :P)
13:19:49 <AnMaster> ehird, during tests in school/at university?
13:19:57 <ehird> Well, some, I think.
13:20:06 <ehird> Not things like mathematics and the like.
13:20:13 <ehird> Danish exams. Or was it English?
13:20:22 <AnMaster> ehird, math was the stuff I was thinking of primarily here
13:20:23 <ehird> And I don't remember what schooling level. High school or university, probably.
13:20:27 <oklopol> eh? computers would be the least useful for mathematics
13:20:44 <ehird> oklopol: wolfram alpha + wikipedia
13:20:49 <oklopol> for anything else being able to get information is useful
13:21:18 <AnMaster> oklopol, what about running a CAS on the computer?
13:21:19 <oklopol> well yeah if it's basic course in monkey integration
13:21:25 <ehird> anyway won't the test room have a clock in it
13:21:33 <ehird> like 90% of the rooms in the world have a clock in them :-P
13:22:11 <oklopol> all our test rooms have clocks in them, but in few they are positioned in such a way that you can't see them from where i sit.
13:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, at the university I'm at: all rooms except none of the rooms in the newest building. (strange yes)
13:22:37 <ehird> Well, buy a $5 watch then and take it when you need it. But augur linked to watches in the vicinity of $150.
13:22:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I think there are some outside in the corridor in the newest building. But that is all.
13:23:22 <oklopol> ehird: he also thinks about what clothes to buy, i find that even weirder
13:23:41 <ehird> oklopol: so basically he's stereotypically gay :-P
13:23:42 <oklopol> i mean clocks at least make this fun clicking sound
13:23:52 <ehird> watches don't really tick much.
13:23:59 <oklopol> well yeah crappy ones don't
13:24:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, you dislike digital watches?
13:24:28 <oklopol> we actually tried to buy loudly ticking clocks with vjn once
13:24:46 <ehird> i rate clothes based on either comfort or boringness/cheapness, former for indoors, latter for outdoors
13:24:47 <oklopol> we wanted to put them in a ring and make the ticking spin around
13:25:08 <oklopol> but there simply aren't loudly ticking clocks. no existo.
13:25:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't want comfort outside?
13:25:26 <ehird> turns out that cotton clothes intended for night usage are the only really comfortable clothes
13:25:39 <ehird> thus saving money by having to buy half the clothes, take that capitalism
13:25:50 <ehird> or something, I don't know
13:25:55 <ehird> I'm still residually tired from yesterday
13:26:08 <ehird> AnMaster: i have not yet seen a clothing item suitable for outdoor usage that is comfortable
13:26:11 <oklopol> i rate shirts like this: black t-shirt without any noticeable deviation from the ideal form of black t-shirts ok, others discarded.
13:26:15 <ehird> i guess i'm ~~~sensitive~~~
13:26:22 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you define "comfort"
13:26:22 <ehird> i hate tshirts, gotta have something on my arms
13:26:34 <oklopol> well i'm usually as naked as possible
13:26:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I would say a thick jacket is more comfortable outdoors than a thin one when it is -15C or so
13:26:50 <ehird> AnMaster: i know it when i see it.... as an approximation let's say the least noticeable
13:26:59 <ehird> although softness is good, skin is kinda icky :-P
13:27:10 <ehird> I mean comfort as in discarding practicality
13:27:17 <ehird> i.e. ignoring temperature
13:27:39 <ehird> i don't have any pockets at the moment
13:27:44 <AnMaster> discarding pockets was the first thing I thought of when you said "discarding practicality"
13:27:48 <ehird> i don't need to carry around anything unless I'm going out
13:27:54 <oklopol> where do you stick your hands then?
13:28:06 <ehird> oklopol: on the keyboard :D
13:28:24 <AnMaster> ehird, where do you keep your credit card and such if you don't have any pockets?
13:28:31 <ehird> but seriously, either by my side or crossing my arms.
13:28:47 <oklopol> i'm obviously naked so no pockets either
13:28:50 <ehird> i don't really have much opportunity to stand doing nothing indoors, so much exciting stuff to do and all
13:29:14 <ehird> AnMaster: i don't have a credit card. I do have a debit card thingy, but it's expired. I wouldn't put it anywhere indoors.
13:29:19 <ehird> I'd put it in my pockets to go out, naturally.
13:29:30 <AnMaster> ehird, so you leave it outdoors all the time?
13:29:48 <ehird> my house has places to put things, you know
13:29:59 <oklopol> ehird: it was clearly a joke
13:30:00 <ehird> do you guys just have all your possessions in your pockets (that would be kinda cool)
13:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, "I wouldn't put it anywhere indoors." <-- a joke about that...
13:30:18 <oklopol> even though i also carry my computer baggie
13:30:22 <ehird> right, I don't read my own lines
13:30:29 <oklopol> i just forget to put stuff in there if it fits my pockets
13:30:47 <ehird> AnMaster is so huge he puts his laptop in his pocket
13:30:55 <ehird> THE MORE YOU KNOW ===========================================*
13:31:10 <AnMaster> ehird, alas, I couldn't fit the umbrella in there if I put my laptop there too
13:31:23 <ehird> =* wait, why are we drawing penises on icr
13:31:25 <oklopol> why would you use an umbrella
13:31:34 <ehird> yeah what oklopol said just open your mouth
13:31:37 <ehird> and drink all the rain
13:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, with all the pollution these days?
13:32:06 <ehird> it's acid rain. just like LSD!
13:32:07 <oklopol> let me tell you about pollution
13:32:10 <oklopol> i don't believe in pollution
13:32:23 <oklopol> that's really all i wanted to tell you
13:32:29 <ehird> oklopol: i bet you didn't believe in getting less than a 5 either did you huh
13:33:12 -!- jix has joined.
13:33:18 <oklopol> the rules for writing scientific shit are slightly different than the rules in high school, and i didn't feel like reading them
13:33:46 <AnMaster> ah. what about the "like" bit then?
13:34:06 <oklopol> that's what like means, "fix the errors in this sentence"
13:34:12 <AnMaster> oklopol, it sounded like "similar, but not exactly the same"
13:34:12 * ehird wants to acquire a model f
13:34:20 * ehird waits for AnMaster to call his typo
13:34:43 <oklopol> AnMaster: yeah it could mean that too
13:34:51 <ehird> [13:34] * ehird wants to acquire a model f
13:35:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't know what a model f is
13:35:08 <oklopol> but it didn't, and the like construct requires you to know what i mean
13:35:10 <ehird> i thought you were gonna go *model m
13:35:29 <ehird> a model f is one of these babies: http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102
13:35:41 <ehird> note the odd alt/caps lock keys, ctrl-where-caps-lock-is-nowadays (yes i know anmaster)
13:35:46 <ehird> and odd layout in general
13:36:05 <ehird> they use capacitive buckling springs, which is like the model m membrane buckling springs but better
13:36:16 <AnMaster> ehird, why? Why did the shape the keys like one of those tetris blocks...
13:36:18 <ehird> http://www.flickr.com/photos/moparx/3887360487/ another model, this one has more off the weird keycaps
13:36:23 <ehird> and a seemingly more compact layout
13:36:37 <ehird> AnMaster: the alt and caps lock?
13:36:47 <ehird> manufacturing ease, I guess, or something
13:36:49 <AnMaster> ehird, can't read at that low res
13:36:52 <ehird> maybe because it was in the 80s
13:37:00 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102
13:37:02 <ehird> is not really low res
13:37:09 <oklopol> enter is pretty tetris too
13:37:19 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody had really decided which way to do big keys was best?
13:37:24 <oklopol> but it's in my current keyboard too, it seems
13:37:26 <ehird> that enter is the ISO layout enter
13:37:31 <ehird> AnMaster: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg
13:37:36 <ehird> higher res photo of a slightly different model
13:37:44 <ehird> with numpad joined together and more of the weird-style keys
13:37:53 <ehird> that's the Personal Computer XT, I think
13:37:59 <ehird> as opposed to the first one, a Personal Computer AT
13:38:07 <ehird> AnMaster: these shipped with the original ibm pc
13:38:32 <ehird> AnMaster: something to note in http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg
13:38:36 <ehird> it's the european layout, but @ is on 2
13:38:42 <ehird> like the american layout
13:38:53 <ehird> also, ' is shown as a closing quote with ` being its flipping
13:39:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't seen a keyboard with @ elsewhere
13:39:12 <ehird> with the multi-line enter
13:39:17 <ehird> also, in http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg, esc is next to 1
13:39:23 <ehird> and ` is relocated to before enter
13:39:32 <ehird> anyway, I just want them for their keyfeel
13:39:32 <AnMaster> ehird, Swedish keyboards, multi-line enter, @ is on altgr-2
13:39:40 <ehird> easy enough to get an adapter to PS/2
13:39:46 <ehird> well, not that easy, but still
13:39:48 <ehird> AnMaster: well, fine
13:39:48 <AnMaster> ehird, however I remember old swedish mac keyboards used to have @ elsewhere
13:40:16 <AnMaster> old here means "early imacs and older, gone by G4 already"
13:40:27 <ehird> Fun fact: When the first boards with the control/alt next to each other were made, ctrl was next to space and alt was further away.
13:40:34 <ehird> It was more ergonomic because most shortcuts use ctrl.
13:40:45 <AnMaster> why did they switch them then?
13:40:48 <ehird> This was changed for some unfathomable reason. OS X has Command in the position Ctrl used to be.
13:40:57 <ehird> Easy enough to remap, anyway.
13:41:14 <AnMaster> ehird, is it hard to remap in OS X btw?
13:41:54 <ehird> I'll demonstrate with a picture.
13:42:29 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't hit alt-s (current placement) with part of the palm for the alt. But it works with ctrl. Not sure if that is an argument for or against the current placement though
13:42:29 <ehird> It screenshotted incorrectly.
13:42:58 <ehird> Hitting modifier keys with the palm is the Right Thing.
13:43:05 <ehird> Most people don't do it, though.
13:43:05 <AnMaster> however using part of your palm for ctrl is a bit cramped. So probably an argument against
13:43:15 <ehird> It's not cramped, it's the ergonomically correct way.
13:43:46 <AnMaster> ehird, well yeah I have to use the thumb for s when my palm is able to reach ctrl. otherwise I have to curl up the fingers rather badly.
13:44:15 <AnMaster> and on laptop it doesn't work at all
13:44:39 <AnMaster> because fn is outermost and you can't really get the hand in the right position for it there anyway
13:44:59 <AnMaster> and fn can't be remapped because it doesn't work like normal keys
13:45:35 <AnMaster> it doesn't generate a key event in fact, until you press some other key as well
13:45:56 <ehird> http://imgur.com/8YeGr.png
13:45:56 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/1W6iS.png
13:46:52 <ehird> Ah, the http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2503/3887360487_ca719998f0_o.jpg one isn't feasible
13:46:59 <ehird> There's no XT→anything adapters available
13:47:52 <ehird> AnMaster: That idea fails right at the start as I couldn't get an FPGA with an XT input for obvious reasons.
13:48:14 <ehird> Anyway, I don't really mind the layout being more "conventional"; I'm pretty sure the weird-style keys aren't very nice anyway.
13:48:25 <ehird> Although Esc next to the 1? Hot hot hot. Want.
13:48:28 <ehird> ...but I can just remap that.
13:48:54 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I fail to see why that is required. Just build a circuit that converts the pins from the keyboard to the right voltage ranges for an FPGA and put that in between.
13:49:07 <ehird> I can't get a slot for the pins to go into, you see.
13:49:15 <AnMaster> ehird, solder the wires onto it?
13:49:30 <ehird> This idea keeps getting worse, worse, and more out of my league.
13:49:40 <ehird> Whoa, look at the position of Esc in http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3070&stc=1&d=1247095102
13:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, okay that is a good reason. But soldering the wires directly to the circuit board wouldn't be hard.
13:50:00 <ehird> That numpad button layout is freaky-deaky
13:50:26 <AnMaster> ehird, esc is where numlock usually is?
13:50:33 <ehird> And Num Lock is next to it
13:51:22 <ehird> That board could work quite well even on a modern computer actually. Remap the keys a bit to have a convenient Esc (if you want to use vim, that is). Map the Caps Lock to the Windows key (for e.g. controlling window manager and other keyboard shortcuts) (bottom-right key below right shift). You already have Ctrl and Alt in a semi-convenient place.
13:51:36 <ehird> And who could resist assigning a bank of hotkeys to that lovely F block?
13:52:19 * AnMaster tries to remember when he last used escape in emacs
13:52:30 <ehird> Every time you press Alt, kiddo.
13:52:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but I meant the key marked esc
13:52:53 <ehird> Never, it's identical to holding Altt.
13:53:20 <AnMaster> I was just wondering if I ever used esc instead of holding alt
13:55:04 <ehird> Here's a better picture of the usable-today Model F:
13:55:11 <ehird> http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8276/img3347nvm.jpg
13:55:42 <ehird> Hey, look at the LEDs.
13:55:49 <ehird> Caps Lock, Num Lock, Scroll Lock.
13:55:53 <AnMaster> ehird, wasn't there keyboards with up to F24 or such?
13:56:00 <ehird> Terminal boards? Yeah.
13:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, also it would be annoying only having up to F10
13:56:09 <ehird> Those things were fucking beasts.
13:56:23 <ehird> The F keys are pretty unused.
13:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, eh. Switching between VTs in linux for example?
13:56:49 <ehird> Besides, just map Windows+F1-2 to F11-12
13:56:57 <ehird> Windows being the Caps Lock in that picture
13:57:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't use that many consoles.
13:57:11 <ehird> Heck, even 6 terminals is a lot.
13:57:16 <AnMaster> <ehird> Caps Lock, Num Lock, Scroll Lock.
13:57:24 <ehird> Because Num Lock goes first since forever.
13:57:40 <ehird> Most of the time Num Lock is on, so for the vast majority of time just the middle light will be on.
13:57:44 <ehird> Also, there are arrow keys there, you know.
13:57:52 <ehird> You access them by turning off Num Lock.
13:57:59 <AnMaster> ehird, numlock is usually off in my experience?
13:58:10 <ehird> Does typing the numpad give numbers?
13:58:13 <ehird> Then Num Lock is on.
13:58:38 <ehird> Oh, is this another "I am AnMaster and my obscure use case is the entire world" session?
13:58:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm using the laptop :P
13:59:01 <ehird> Apparently the Model F weighs 3 kg.
13:59:26 <ehird> Should show this to everyone who claims that the Model M is built like a tank, ever.
13:59:31 <AnMaster> ehird, a little bit more than an slightly above average laptop then?
13:59:37 <ehird> I wonder if there's a terminal Model F. That'd be a beast.
13:59:48 <ehird> AnMaster: But not very evenly distributed.
13:59:51 <ehird> That thing will feel HEAVY.
14:00:11 <ehird> A terminal Model F would have all the crazy F keys, the numpad-like arrow key formation with the middle button, a few weird-ass keys...
14:00:27 <ehird> It'd be gigantic, heavy as fuck, loud as fuck, tactile as fuck and AWESOME AS FUCK.
14:00:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I'd say a Model F would feel 2x as heavy as a 3 kg laptop.
14:00:50 <ehird> That's just a guess, though.
14:00:58 <AnMaster> ehird, picture of a terminal keyboard?
14:01:11 <ehird> Will find a good one. Sec.
14:01:26 <ehird> AnMaster: http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4833&stc=1&d=1254255319
14:01:31 <ehird> A Model M terminal board.
14:01:49 <AnMaster> ehird, same but extra F keys? that's all?
14:02:04 <AnMaster> what the hell is the rule one?
14:02:10 <ehird> Look at the arrow keys and the keys above, the whole keyblock to the left.
14:02:12 <ehird> Look at the numpad.
14:02:20 <ehird> They are GIGANTIC.
14:02:34 <ehird> The extra keys are for terminals.
14:02:41 <AnMaster> ehird, numpad looks fairly normal apart from *some* of those blue labels
14:02:50 <ehird> LOL, I like the num lock key. It's scroll lock too.
14:02:54 <ehird> What a compromise for such a huge board.
14:03:01 <ehird> AnMaster: It has a space key on the /.
14:03:05 <AnMaster> the "home/pgup" and such on the numeric ones. are on my keyboard
14:03:05 <ehird> And the + key doubles up as tab.
14:03:22 <ehird> That's what the numpad is for.
14:03:30 <ehird> What did you think it was for — emulating a calculator?
14:03:51 <ehird> Take a look at that numpad area. "FidMk\n\nFA2\n\blue{PgUp}"
14:04:00 <ehird> Ooh, and more on the side.
14:04:05 <ehird> ChgRq? Can't read it properly.
14:04:09 <AnMaster> ehird, nah, more like a well aligned set of keys that you can use for 8 directions in tile based games (of course not)
14:04:18 <ehird> You could just have that key and some modifiers.
14:04:23 <ehird> And do EVERYTHING.
14:04:58 <AnMaster> what happens when you press that I wonder
14:05:08 <ehird> Probably a horizontal rule in a word processor? Or something.
14:05:36 <ehird> "Copy\n\nPlay". Did they have Logic Pro in the 1980s? :-P
14:05:44 <ehird> And "Test" below that; how convenient.
14:05:47 <ehird> Computer, test my software
14:05:52 <ehird> *Computer, test my software!
14:06:05 <ehird> AnMaster: That huge terminal board is just 2.36 kg.
14:06:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> "Copy\n\nPlay". Did they have Logic Pro in the 1980s? :-P <-- I don't get it?
14:06:14 <ehird> So saying that the much smaller Model F is 3 kg...
14:06:19 <ehird> and imagining a Model F terminal board...
14:06:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Logic Pro = Apple's acquiring of eMagic Logic = professional music software
14:06:59 <ehird> My dad has Logic for the Atari ST. :-)
14:07:00 <AnMaster> ehird, wow at the "profile" picture in http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=5264&page=2
14:07:10 <ehird> He bought the ST on the day it came out in the UK.
14:07:15 <AnMaster> "The risers on these are good fun, on the high setting the top is about 12cm off the desk:"
14:08:26 <AnMaster> ehird, also that tab key is a bit strange
14:08:37 <ehird> He used to be involved with that sort of stuff, but he's been a phone-call technician for an audio technology company for as long as I can remember.
14:08:50 <ehird> The Atari ST worked as of some years ago.
14:09:05 <ehird> It played Monkey Island like a champ; and old audio software sure is confusing.
14:09:10 <ehird> At least when you're a kid like I was...
14:09:21 <AnMaster> ehird, it is more confusing than modern audio software?
14:09:25 <AnMaster> also doesn't it work any longer?
14:09:28 <ehird> The resolutions are fun; the high one is much taller than it is wide so it's hard to read any text.
14:09:39 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know; I haven't been to his house since ~2005.
14:09:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? parents split up? :/
14:09:54 <ehird> AnMaster: Also, I'd say it's more confusing to get to know, but much more understandable after that.
14:10:01 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, when I was 3
14:10:22 <ehird> "atari monkey island" in google image source doth not produce useful results
14:10:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Also, I'd say it's more confusing to get to know, but much more understandable after that. <-- "it" meaning modern or old?
14:10:35 <ehird> There we go. http://www.scummbar.com/games/monkey1/images/atari.gif
14:11:09 <ehird> AnMaster: oh that geekhack page you linked: http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/6110344/front_1v.jpg
14:11:14 <ehird> Model F terminal board!
14:11:20 <ehird> It looks just as much like a tank as I'd expect.
14:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the text under those F keys at the top
14:13:42 <AnMaster> ehird, why stop at 24 function keys
14:14:10 <AnMaster> to match the current trend we should really have 64-bi^Wfunction keyboard
14:15:08 <ehird> "To input a number, hold down the keys F1-64 to insert a binary number, and hit enter."
14:15:11 <ehird> It truly is 64-bits!
14:15:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be an aircraft carrier! (continuing the military analogy)
14:15:36 <ehird> An inexplicably air- and space-borne ultimate half of an aircraft carrier.
14:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, "ultimate half" meaning?
14:16:18 <ehird> Well, it was half of an aircraft carrier, and I turned my aircraft carriers into ultimate aircraft carriers, so...
14:16:21 <ehird> (The point thing.)
14:17:02 <AnMaster> with keys for commonly used stuff
14:18:43 <AnMaster> that would change large parts of those special keys to math mode ones instead
14:18:51 <AnMaster> (there would have to be a math shift too)
14:19:31 <AnMaster> nice, it seems AltGr really is "ISO Level3 Shift". Never knew
14:21:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:25:25 <ehird> I want this: http://www.bluesnews.com/miscimages/tmmarble150.gif
14:29:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I want one that works equally well in either hand (most likely impossible)
14:29:25 <ehird> They exist; finger-controlled.
14:29:31 <ehird> Thumb trackballs appear to be better, however.
14:29:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant thumb ones. It could work however
14:29:58 <AnMaster> like pulling part of the left and right side away and switching their places
14:30:05 <AnMaster> had to be a cleaver design that could be mirrored
14:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, because I use both hands for mice normally?
14:30:35 * AnMaster has a symmetric mouse for that reason
14:30:43 <ehird> No reason to with a trackball. Everything's stationary.
14:30:45 <AnMaster> atm I'm using left, but just a while ago right
14:31:07 <ehird> Besides, the fine motor skills you need in your thumb probably take a while to develop.
14:31:10 <ehird> Of course it's best to have a keyboard without a number pad.
14:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, to reduce strain on thumb?
14:31:20 <ehird> That way it's easier to reach by far.
14:31:49 <AnMaster> ehird, well, put the number pad on the side you don't use the mice on atm?
14:31:55 <ehird> And if you don't care enough about the mouse to chop off the number pad for your main computer-usage board, don't bother paying the extra for a trackball.
14:32:04 <ehird> Just get a $5 mouse because you clearly don't care about your pointing experience.
14:32:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that's because I use the number pad...
14:32:44 <ehird> Then obviously the immense pain of swapping keyboards when you need the number pad, or plugging in a separate numberpad, outweighs all advantages of pointing to you.
14:32:50 <ehird> So, just get a $5 mouse.
14:33:00 <ehird> (Separate numberpads do exist and are easily available.)
14:34:04 <Deewiant> As an aside, do you know if Xkb can be told to use a different key map for a separate numpad than for the primary keyboard?
14:34:21 <ehird> AH, THE OTHER KEYBOARDIC PERSON HERE hi
14:34:31 <ehird> It appears as a separate keyboard, yyeah?
14:34:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you missed my point completelt
14:34:54 <Deewiant> If I try stuff out in xev I see no difference between them
14:35:08 <ehird> AnMaster: You know, the intent of communication is to transfer a thought to someone else. If I misunderstood that's not my fault.
14:35:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Do they appear as different keyboard objects, so to speak
14:35:20 <Deewiant> I don't know where I could see a difference between which keyboard a keypress came from
14:35:27 <AnMaster> ehird, same goes in the other direction I assume? :P
14:35:29 <ehird> Check what X thinks its xorg.conf is
14:35:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to blame me for not understanding you a lot...
14:35:51 <ehird> will start X, dump a hueg liek xbox config file into your current dir, and tada
14:35:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but I readily admit I'm a hypocrite.
14:36:34 <Deewiant> ehird: I use input hotplugging, keyboards aren't in xorg.conf.
14:36:58 <ehird> Deewiant: irrelevant
14:37:04 <ehird> X -configure dumps everything it has right now
14:37:09 <ehird> It even works on HAL
14:37:18 <Deewiant> That'd require stopping X. :-/
14:37:58 <ehird> Detach all the processes from X11 somehow so you can reattach them. Somehow. :P
14:38:08 <ehird> See, if X was well-designed they wouldn't depend on the X server being alive to stay alive...
14:38:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, try xinput(1) maybe=
14:39:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Write two sections manually, I guess.
14:39:09 <AnMaster> and yeah -configure wouldn't help
14:39:13 <ehird> You can't hotplug PS/2 anyway.
14:39:28 <Deewiant> It's worked fine for me so far. :-P
14:39:45 <Deewiant> (Only one PS/2 port necessitates that.)
14:40:22 <ehird> Here's a nickel, kid; go buy one more PS/... no, wait... one less PS/... no, um, never mind.
14:40:58 <ehird> I wonder if scrolling with a wheel-less trackball is practical.
14:41:53 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder if I need MPX for this to work.
14:42:58 <Deewiant> Well, I evidently have MPX, since it's in 1.7.
14:44:15 <Deewiant> Hmm, maybe that's what broke my key repeat settings recently.
14:44:46 <Deewiant> (Pressing any key apart from numlock on the numpad causes backspace [capslock] to no longer repeat)
14:46:48 <Deewiant> http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=mpx
14:47:52 <ehird> Old school, all the kids are using lmgtfy
14:48:04 <ehird> MPX is for, you know, pointers, innit?
14:48:15 <ehird> Did I say it was bad
14:48:19 <Deewiant> lmgtfy requires javascript, which AnMaster won't have enabled
14:48:41 <ehird> Your client does not have permission to get URL /custom?q=mpx&sa=Search&client=pub-5834014132134539&forid=1&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A1%3B&hl=en from this server. (Client IP address: 212.183.134.129)
14:48:48 <ehird> Deewiant: He probably disabled meta refreshes too.
14:48:58 <ehird> I doubt lynx supports them, actually.
14:49:03 <ehird> Or is it elinks he uses.
14:49:09 <Deewiant> The page links to the appropriate google search directly.
14:49:13 <ehird> Maybe Konqueror broke it in KHTML "Dead and Buried" 33.4
14:49:23 <ehird> Deewiant: It's a 403 for me, at least :P
14:49:36 <Deewiant> I talked about the link, not the redirect.
14:49:46 <Deewiant> Rather, the links, of which there are three.
14:49:59 <Deewiant> Redirect seems to work fine for me.
14:51:44 <ehird> No, that's ais523.
14:58:52 <ehird> Whee, nice syntax.
15:07:44 <oklopol> i'm a point, i'm a ball, i'm a stick, i'm a stall
15:14:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> No, that's ais523. <-- huh? I use both lynx and w3m. I don't use links2 much, and elinks I don't even have installed
15:16:05 <ehird> A stenotype, stenotype machine or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. In order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter test, a trained court reporter or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 180, 200, and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can even reach 300
15:16:05 <ehird> per minute and per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the official record for American English is 375 wpm.
15:19:14 <AnMaster> "Many users of this machine can even reach 30
15:19:24 <ehird> http://justfuckinggoogleit.com/?q=closed+captioner
15:19:34 <ehird> "The righardware template is no good, so I'm not using it."
15:21:28 <AnMaster> ah so that is what closed captioning is
15:25:09 <ehird> righardware is a template on the wearable computing wiki.
15:26:00 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cf/Steno-example.gif
15:26:54 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty, but what the heck is that mapping?
15:27:16 <ehird> [15:16] ehird: A stenotype, stenotype machine or shorthand machine is a specialized chorded keyboard or typewriter used by stenographers for shorthand use. In order to pass the Registered Professional Reporter test, a trained court reporter or closed captioner must write speeds of approximately 180, 200, and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can
15:27:18 <ehird> reach 300 words per minute and per the website of the California Official Court Reporters Association the official record for American English is 375 wpm.
15:27:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but I asked for encoding table or such
15:27:41 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenographersv
15:27:44 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenographers
15:31:06 <Gregor> <AnMaster> "Many users of this machine can even reach 30
15:31:08 <Gregor> <AnMaster> <ehird> per minute"
15:31:29 <ehird> and 225 words per minute at very high accuracy in the categories of literary, jury charge, and testimony, respectively,.[1] Many users of this machine can even reach 300 words per minute and per the
15:31:32 <ehird> I absolutely did not.
15:31:33 <Gregor> Stenographers can write a book in ten minutes.
15:31:41 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenotype has the mapping
15:31:48 <ehird> Gregor: Are you joking or what :P
15:51:51 <AnMaster> I just noticed that mac os thinks that sheepshaver's emulated disks are "internal floppy drive"s. A 500 MB floppy drive eh
15:52:21 <ehird> that's the one that sucks
15:52:22 <Gregor> Observation: gnash actually ... like ... works 'n stuff.
15:52:30 <ehird> Gregor: Not on YouTube last I tried.
15:52:40 <ehird> Then again I couldn't be fucked to compile it myself, I just used Ubuntu's package
15:52:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well it can't run the old games I want. Not even Basilisk II can
15:52:41 <Gregor> I'm using YouTube right now.
15:52:46 <ehird> Gregor: CPU usage?
15:52:47 <AnMaster> and mini vmac is for even older
15:52:57 <ehird> Mini vMac is = Basilisk II in recentness.
15:53:00 <ehird> Emulates a Mac Pluss.
15:53:01 <Gregor> ehird: Pretty high, but only one of my quadcore.
15:53:06 <ehird> Gregor: Sidux? Frls? xd
15:53:14 <AnMaster> ehird, basilisk II emulates a quadra iirc?
15:53:19 <ehird> Also, great, so it's just like the actual Flash player but it works less.
15:53:30 <Gregor> Yes, I'm actually using sidux. It's awesomesauce.
15:53:34 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a setting. But Mac Plus is fine for 68k.
15:53:44 <ehird> Gregor: What's it got over sid
15:54:17 <Gregor> ehird: They have a repo of stuff that's sort of a fixed-sid. It's a little bit intermediate between sid and testing.
15:54:54 <ehird> I'd just use testing since, you know, Debian devs won't pander to people who want a "stable sid" so sidux is kinda fighting the tide.
15:55:07 <ehird> Well, that's a lie; I'd actually use mine. Which I need to name really quickly.
15:55:53 <Gregor> I had used testing, I'm trying out sidux now.
15:57:46 <ehird> AsOfYetUnnamedThing FTW!
15:57:49 <ehird> It's totally kick-raddin'.
15:57:56 -!- oklokok has joined.
15:57:59 <ehird> If it existed yet.
15:58:03 <ehird> Just need hardwarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
15:58:11 <ehird> Yes, a war that is hard is what I need.
16:13:04 <Gregor> btw, I've already switched to proprieflash :P
16:13:37 <AnMaster> ehird, emulator to begin with?
16:13:58 <ehird> Emulator? I hardly knew 'er!
16:14:13 <ehird> (Emulator? Damn near killed 'em!)
16:14:33 <ehird> Gregor: I thought that was a keyboard layout for a second
16:15:40 -!- oklokok has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)).
16:16:04 -!- oklokok has joined.
16:17:33 <ehird> WOO A NEW XKCD. It's an unfunny non-joke like always
16:18:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
16:33:25 <ehird> So, rwx.st got squatted days after I saw it was available.
16:33:47 <ehird> Looks like Swedish to me; AnMaster — some broadband company?
16:34:07 <ehird> http://www.bahnhof.se/ is the company, it seems.
16:34:19 <ehird> http://www.bahnhof.se/privat/
16:34:23 <AnMaster> that's an ISP in Sweden iirc. Or maybe backbone company
16:34:24 <Deewiant> Bahnhof är Sveriges största oberoende och fristående internetoperatör."
16:34:56 <Deewiant> "Bahnhof is Sweden's largest independent and freestanding internet operator"
16:48:00 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:57:29 <oerjan> to do a zen pogrom, you first have to learn not to do a zen pogrom.
16:57:32 * ehird comes up with a fun little *unixy* design for a combined screen saver/locker
16:58:31 <oerjan> no no, a unixy design would clearly have the screen saver and locker as separate programs
16:58:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, indeed. In fact that is what xscreensaver does
16:59:14 <ehird> oerjan: yes, mine does
16:59:21 <ehird> specifically, a screen saver can be any program at all, no special api
16:59:37 <AnMaster> ehird, it has to be full screen though?
16:59:46 <oerjan> but you said "combined"...
16:59:51 <ehird> oerjan: well, sort of
16:59:51 <ehird> the locker basically just does the magic locking, overlays the screen with black, and then optionally starts your screensaver program
17:00:13 <ehird> fuck it, no point explaining
17:00:26 <AnMaster> the locker, and the app on top
17:00:29 <ehird> firstly, they're not apps, they're programs.
17:00:32 <ehird> secondly, there is no secondly
17:00:55 <AnMaster> ehird, define the difference between an application and a program?
17:01:06 <ehird> an application is what WIMP guis have
17:01:17 <ehird> a program is a self-contained black-box like a function
17:01:32 <ehird> unixy programs are either written in C or compositions of other programs.
17:01:45 <ehird> anyway, it's combined because you can use it to do both, duh
17:01:55 <ehird> it's a combined screen locker/saver *engine-
17:02:11 <ehird> just because it doesn't include any actual screen savers doesn't mean it isn't a combined screen locker/saver
17:04:21 <ehird> i've eaten semi-recently and i'm not tired, so i'm fairly sure either the sides of my bed swapped overnight making me exit through the wrong one, or you're all being especially annoying today :|
17:04:43 <ehird> the advantage of the design is that you can use any program as the screensaver
17:04:57 <ehird> xlogo, glxgears, even an xterm running top or something
17:04:57 <oerjan> naturally if the sides swapped you must now be in the mirror universe
17:05:20 <ehird> heck, you could even run xscreensaver's screensaver
17:05:24 <ehird> if you wanted to, for some reason
17:05:31 <ehird> (not the locker though, that'd Break Shit)
17:05:40 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving...").
17:06:02 <ehird> and a changing screensaver is just a shell script that goes through a list in random order, spawns it, sleeps N seconds, kills it, and runs the next one
17:06:35 <ehird> (the locker will capture all keyboard and mouse events so it's safe)
17:10:38 <ehird> i believe you could even set the screensaver to a program that turns off the display
17:11:12 <ehird> well, it might not be that simple since it has to turn back on to show the password prompt or return to the computer, but easy enough
17:14:57 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:16:38 <oklokok> oh do you have a *goatee*, was kinda far from the screen and thought oerjan asked if you had a goatse, like mirror universe => inverse ass... or something
17:17:38 <oklokok> well that's my contribution ->
17:18:17 <oerjan> well now you are just talking out your ass
17:34:09 <AnMaster> I guessed word perfect but that didn't work. file(1) says "microsoft office document" but trying as that doesn't work either
17:35:24 <ehird> It's Microsoft Works.
17:35:43 <ehird> I don't know, I just googled. Like you should have.
17:35:52 <ehird> Detailed information for file extension WPS:
17:35:53 <ehird> Primary association: Works
17:35:53 <ehird> Company: Microsoft Corporation
17:35:53 <ehird> Mime type: application/vnd.ms-works, application/x-msworks-wp, zz-application/zz-winassoc-wps, text/plain
17:35:53 <ehird> Identifying characters Hex: D0 CF 11 E0 A1 B1 1A E1 00 , ASCII:
17:35:54 <ehird> Program ID: MicrosoftWorks.WordProcessor.5 , MSWorks4WordProcessor , Works.Word.Document.8
17:35:55 <AnMaster> ehird, it didn't work to convert from that
17:35:55 <ehird> Related links: Microsoft Office Home Page, MS Article: Open Works in Word, OpenOffice.org
17:36:01 <ehird> Converter's fault.
17:36:20 <AnMaster> ehird, tried MS word's own works converter
17:37:54 <AnMaster> ehird, takes too long. Told the person to re-send it as rtf
17:38:04 <ehird> Why didn't you do that first thing?
17:38:44 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3502&stc=1&d=1249088737
17:38:45 <AnMaster> ehird, because there is a certain risk of having to tell the person how to do that.
17:38:45 <ehird> Pictured: a Boscom keyboard being dropped from a ladder.
17:39:14 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3503&stc=1&d=1249088928
17:39:15 <ehird> Various parts jumping ship.
17:39:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Think so, yes. To see how high you need to drop it from to destroy the rivets.
17:39:46 <ehird> It's MythBusters-style "science" and it's hilarious.
17:39:56 <AnMaster> ehird, even with those parts jumping out of it?
17:40:04 <ehird> Those are just parts of the rivets, I believe.
17:40:15 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=3509&stc=1&d=1249142093
17:40:15 <ehird> Look, it's bendy! Nice ergonomic keyboard.
17:40:30 <ehird> "What's surprising is that plugging it in MOST of the keys work fine - All the Function keys, most of the main cluster except the left modifiers. Numpad and weird keys on left are toast. Not bad for a 12 foot concrete drop."
17:40:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> Look, it's bendy! Nice ergonomic keyboard. <-- huh?
17:41:01 <ehird> The case has been warped by the drops.
17:41:06 <AnMaster> oh right the bottom isn't straight
17:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it isn't due to a wide angle camera lens?
17:41:33 <ehird> Since I stole the joke from the post, I'm sure./
17:42:56 <ehird> All Model Ms and followups (Unicomp (who took over from Lexmark who took over from IBM) are the OEM for Boscom) get something like 12-key rollover. Or was it 20?
17:43:01 <ehird> Not n-key, that's a recent thing.
17:43:06 <ehird> But higher than your average board.
17:43:18 <ehird> USB only does 6-key rollover anyway, and only gamers complain.
17:43:34 <ehird> And most keyboards in general only get about 3-key rollover.
17:43:35 <ehird> So it's kinda moot.
17:44:19 <AnMaster> ehird, does modifier keys count separately?
17:44:49 <ehird> It varies based on the matrix. It's very complicated.
17:44:55 <ehird> There are a few standard tests to work out the rollover.
17:44:58 <AnMaster> ehird, my main issue is that my current keyboard doesn't allow Alt-Space-Right arrow (alt-space-left-arrow works fine)
17:45:22 <AnMaster> remapping to ctrl makes ctrl-space-right work but not ctrl-space-left
17:45:32 <ehird> Oh, that crappy PS/2
17:46:11 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, when did you last see a laptop with full sized arrow keys?
17:46:36 <ehird> My shitty netbook.
17:47:08 <ehird> i love how I can middle-click a button in safari to submit a form in a new tab
17:47:11 <ehird> great for e.g. search fields
17:47:41 <AnMaster> ehird, does that work in firefox (I don't think I ever tried)
17:50:10 <AnMaster> ehird, did you know that Microsoft's Virtual PC was originally based on a mac program with the same name?
17:50:18 <AnMaster> of which I just found a copy in an old box
17:50:25 <ehird> It's still offered today.
17:50:57 <ehird> In July 2006 Microsoft released the Windows-hosted version as a free product.[1] In August 2006 Microsoft announced the Macintosh-hosted version would not be ported to Intel-based Macintosh computers, effectively discontinuing the product as PowerPC-based Macintosh computers are no longer manufactured. The newest release, Windows Virtual PC is available only for Windows 7 hosts.
17:51:19 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe I should try to install it under the mac emulator, and run linux in it
17:51:48 <ehird> And run SheepShaver from the Linux.
17:51:55 <ehird> Pretty sure Virtual PC is Windows only though
17:52:05 <AnMaster> ehird, nop, I ran linux under it before
17:52:57 <ehird> Name for a bug tracking system: Samsa
17:53:16 <AnMaster> ehird, however, I'm sceptical of it working.... Sheepshaver isn't exactly reliable even with other programs. And VirtualPC did something to put the CPU in little endian mode iirc
17:55:54 <AnMaster> ehird, meh, starting virtualpc makes sheepshaver segfault. 100% reproducible.
17:56:08 <ehird> no configuration required ;-)
17:56:10 <AnMaster> ehird, it needs OS 8 or later. PPC
17:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you mean running mini vmac under sheepshaver?
17:57:16 <ehird> wait, it isn't ppc
17:57:29 <ehird> AnMaster: if you have a windows host you could try vmac
17:57:49 <ehird> oh, vmac is 68k only too
17:58:03 <ehird> hmm it does run on linux yes
17:58:10 <ehird> unmainntained since '98 though :)
17:58:14 <ehird> http://www.vmac.org/
17:58:15 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you think I'm using sheepshaver if there was an alternative for PPC OS 8/9
17:59:08 <AnMaster> ehird, sheepshaver is crashy, and buggy. Like I want to run those old avernum games. Avernum 1 and avernum 2 works fine. Avernum 3 gives a blank screen. :(
17:59:20 <ehird> sheepshaver is shit, basilisk ii is also shit but slightly less so
17:59:32 <ehird> mini vmac is 700x less shitty than both if you can do 68k
17:59:36 <ehird> AnMaster: i know that.
17:59:44 <ehird> i was running through all the current mac emulators
18:00:02 <AnMaster> I think they might run under OS X. Not sure though
18:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, does intel OS X's rosetta support Carbon? Or only Coca?
18:00:23 <ehird> AnMaster: Classic just runs OS 9 in OS X basically
18:00:30 <ehird> It supports Carbon
18:00:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I checked, they link to carbon.
18:00:44 <ehird> but I don't think classic binaries would work, Mach-O and the like ...
18:00:51 <ehird> feel free to email them to penguinofthegods@gmail.com
18:00:59 <ehird> there IS a chance they'll work
18:01:04 <ehird> rosetta is just a ppc emulator, btw
18:01:16 <ehird> photoshop cs3 is almost usable on this imac with it
18:01:22 <ehird> and it's what people used on mac pros for a while
18:01:38 <ehird> slower than a g5, sure... but still probably the fastest totally-different-CPU emulator out there
18:01:51 <AnMaster> ehird, I can provide you with download link. They are shareware (only part of the game world available unregistered) with "response code" system. As in, on install they generate a key, and you have to enter a response key
18:02:00 <AnMaster> there are cracks around (that runs on windows)
18:02:32 <AnMaster> ehird, ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.bin
18:03:02 <ehird> Yes ... ten years ago
18:03:21 <ehird> That download appears to have failed, I'll try wget
18:03:22 <AnMaster> I could download it and repack it as .sit.hqx I guess...
18:03:28 <ehird> OS X does .bin it seems
18:03:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I know I wgeted it to the shared folder thing
18:03:43 <ehird> No such file `Avernum3.demo.bin'.
18:03:49 <ehird> thou failest to the top amount!
18:03:59 <AnMaster> ehird, ah try ftp://ftp.spiderwebsoftware.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.v101.bin
18:03:59 * ehird opens the directory it's in
18:04:19 <ehird> And I can see it in the folder, but eh.
18:04:26 <ehird> (Spider one works)
18:04:46 <AnMaster> ehird, spiderwebsoftware is the ones that produced it btw
18:05:19 <AnMaster> ehird, and the latter link is an older version. Oh heh it says they ported it to native OS X in the later version.
18:05:39 <AnMaster> well. I guess if I could get OS X to run in some emulator I could use it
18:05:56 <ehird> VirtualBox + OSX86
18:06:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that works? Hardware compat and such I mean
18:06:10 <ehird> I suggest Snow Leopard, since it has the Intel optimisations
18:06:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Try qemu if not
18:06:23 <ehird> Slow but usable, since it emulates real hardware
18:06:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well I'm pretty sure qemu doesn't emulate the right hardware. Some cirrus graphics card for exampl
18:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, as far as I heard OS X is incredibly picky about hardware?
18:07:48 <ehird> OSx86 people make drivers.
18:08:03 <ehird> You could also just install it to another partition
18:08:15 <ehird> Although it'd have to be like 10 GiB
18:08:30 <ehird> rc=`{echo $rc+1 | bc}
18:08:43 <ehird> rc's only disadvantage is that saying rc++ is loquacious :P
18:08:43 -!- Asztal has joined.
18:09:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly does that code do?
18:09:33 <ehird> Same as rc=$(echo "$rc"+1 | bc)
18:10:11 <AnMaster> oh something like (( rc++)) then?
18:10:13 <ehird> ; fn ++ { eval '$'^$1^'=`{echo $'^$1^'+1 | bc}' }
18:10:15 <ehird> If only we had something like Tcl's uplevel! XD
18:10:18 <ehird> (Warning: Awful hack above)
18:10:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it's rc=rc+1
18:10:38 <ehird> rc is a shell, so you use a calculator command to calculate things.
18:10:50 <ehird> It's not intended for mathematics-heavy code.
18:11:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well right. But most programming languages have some way to increment variables. Even if not for math heavy things
18:11:08 <ehird> It's very good as a scripting language; in fact, I don't see all that many uses for Python if you have rc.
18:11:30 <ehird> for(i in `{seq 10}) echo $i
18:11:51 <ehird> Everything is standard, it's a fucking shell
18:11:58 <ehird> The whole point is that you compose together little unixy tools
18:12:20 <ehird> (I won't bother putting your head, I'd have to flood empty lines for decades)
18:12:38 <AnMaster> but sure, if you have that tool it would work
18:13:00 <ehird> Yeah and what if you had a Python with all arithmetic capabilities removed?!
18:13:03 <ehird> IT WOULDN'T WORK THEN
18:13:07 <ehird> Python is unusable for arithmetic.
18:14:10 <ehird> Well I just proved it didn't I
18:14:23 <AnMaster> didn't work with it removed yes
18:14:34 <AnMaster> but that isn't what you said in the last line
18:14:35 <ehird> 97% [====================================> ] 11,621,224 18.1K/s eta 19s
18:14:52 <ehird> AnMaster: And that rc script won't remove if you remove a very useful tool like seq.
18:15:00 <ehird> It's called "dependencies".
18:15:07 <ehird> All software has them.
18:15:08 <AnMaster> won't remove? won't work you mean?
18:15:48 <ehird> http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man1/seq.html
18:15:56 <ehird> plan9port has seq. Depend on that or something.
18:16:05 <ehird> Anyway such loops are useless generally.
18:16:13 <ehird> It's very rare that a from i=0 to n can't be rephrased in a better way.
18:17:03 <ehird> plan9port is where everyone gets their rc anyway, or the fork 9babse
18:17:11 <ehird> http://imgur.com/NeGZp.png
18:17:13 <ehird> STOP SMILING AT ME MACINTOSH
18:17:17 <ehird> I am not happy with you
18:19:04 <AnMaster> ehird, true "for i in foo" is often possible
18:19:18 <ehird> Among other constructs.
18:19:24 <ehird> This is totally irrelevant, you know.
18:19:33 <AnMaster> ehird, did the more recent avernum 3 work?
18:19:54 <ehird> If not, it will not work. Classic in OS X is dead, no longer supported, end of.
18:20:33 <AnMaster> ehird, as far as I understand it, yes. says "Avernum 3 runs natively under Macintosh OS X.". And that the last version no longer supports OS 9 and older
18:21:08 <AnMaster> ehird, ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/Avernum3.demo.bin (the spiderwebsoftware one was the older version)
18:21:09 * ehird compiles the Heirloom Toolchest
18:21:20 <ehird> Don't you mean the dmg?
18:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, of having Heirloom Toolchest installed
18:21:58 <ehird> Gee, what a club. Not like you probably use it as your main tools...
18:22:19 <AnMaster> ehird, actually /bin/vi is from heirloom :P
18:22:36 <ehird> Same person different project
18:22:44 <ehird> This demo is .bin, it's definitely Classic-only
18:22:49 <ehird> There's an Avenrum 4 dmg though
18:23:00 <AnMaster> ehird, avernum 4 doesn't really interest me. Too modern :/
18:24:54 <AnMaster> ehird, okay so I guess avernum 3 is a lost hope. But blades of avernum seems to have a dmg version too. That should work
18:25:08 <AnMaster> ftp://ftp.ironycentral.com/mac/BladesofAvernumDemo.dmg
18:25:13 <ehird> will download soon.
18:25:28 <ehird> cc install_ucb.o -L../libcommon -lcommon -o install_ucb
18:25:28 <ehird> Undefined symbols:
18:25:28 <ehird> "_pfmt_label__", referenced from:
18:25:28 <ehird> _pfmt_label__$non_lazy_ptr in libcommon.a(getopt.o)
18:25:29 <ehird> ld: symbol(s) not found
18:25:30 <AnMaster> ehird, althrough it says "demo" it is the same as the full one. A bit strange
18:25:43 <AnMaster> ehird, no fucking clue. Never hit that.
18:26:44 <AnMaster> wouldn't surprise me if it was related to that
18:27:43 <AnMaster> ehird, but I wonder what sort of linker trick they are doing to cause that.
18:27:54 <ehird> None, it's regular code.
18:28:01 <ehird> Just an undefined symbol.
18:28:20 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the $non_lazy_ptr bit?
18:29:03 <AnMaster> ehird, and: can you find the definition elsewhere in the code?
18:29:40 <ehird> Too lazy, already rm -rf'd.
18:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw did you make -j?
18:30:28 <AnMaster> googling suggests there is a pfmt_label.c around
18:30:40 <ehird> maybe i got configuration wrong blah blah
18:30:43 <AnMaster> hm no possible race condition about that then
18:31:02 <ehird> just some make variables, skimmed them
18:31:16 <ehird> too lazy to care, going to continue fawning over my awesome latex-style syntax
18:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird, latex-style syntax for?
18:33:17 <ehird> Written-in-rc little web publishing-style system, because I need to get off my arse and publish software ands tuff.
18:33:45 <AnMaster> ehird, anything wrong with markdown?
18:33:48 <ehird> Extensible, so it's sort of like a web framework that also handles navigation and other site-like things for you.
18:33:50 <ehird> Except much simpler.
18:34:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes; it's kind of ugly, some bits are unintuitive, and fundamentally it fails at being so easy as to not require thinking, but it's "free" enough to require even more thought, as your brain doesn't go into code mode.
18:34:35 <ehird> Plus, mine is simpler, and handles more advanced structures better.
18:34:38 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc there was some sort of "hypercard for the web" software called "livecard" or something like that. Maybe that would work? XD
18:35:27 <AnMaster> ehird, http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~pinto/hc4.html (search for "How can I get my HyperCard stack on the web")
18:35:42 <ehird> Thanks but no thanks.
18:39:08 <ehird> Ha, Model Ms are "technically" 2-key rolloverr
18:39:17 <ehird> Because "ASX" fails
18:39:39 <ehird> Dunno. Most combinations should work.
18:39:47 <ehird> Without n-key rollover you'll always have edge cases.
18:39:54 <AnMaster> ehird, they have the same relative placement though
18:40:09 <ehird> That's not how the matrix works.
18:40:10 <ehird> Hey, the AT Model Fs are N-key rollover.
18:40:28 <AnMaster> ehird, I never studied keyboards much, wouldn't know
18:41:40 <ehird> Keyboards are awesome
18:42:37 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol.
18:43:35 <AnMaster> "This site uses AJAX to generate page content. You need to enable Javascript in your browser and reload the page in order to see it." <-- argh. That is quite horrible.
18:43:55 <AnMaster> http://alex.csgraf.de/self/?qemu/
18:44:13 <AnMaster> found when reading various stuff about OSx86.
18:44:14 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:44:18 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:44:27 <AnMaster> post from 2007 so could be completely outdated info
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18:45:24 <ehird> "Mac OS X is a really great Operating System. They did a lot of things right, especially in the Interface parts. Sadly it is neither the fastest Operating System, nor the securest out there."
18:45:33 <ehird> OS X is a pretty fucking secure BSD...
18:47:03 <ehird> http://www.nazgul.ch/dev_nostromo.html seems to be a decent httpd... sure would be nice not to have to write my own :P
18:47:34 <AnMaster> that is about as minimal as you can get
18:48:02 <ehird> As seen at http://www.nazgul.ch/dev_nostromo.html thttpd is about as scalable than nostromo, and nostromo is about as minimal as thttpd.
18:48:10 <ehird> Difference is that thttpd is practically unmaintained.
18:48:37 <AnMaster> ehird, they didn't test with more than 300 clients?
18:48:43 <ehird> And a large aspect of thttpd, "It also has one extremely useful feature (URL-traffic-based throttling) that no other server currently has.", is totally useless to me.
18:48:55 <ehird> AnMaster: running server benchmarks takes a lot of resources, and besides:
18:49:02 <ehird> Client: resurrection, Sun Ultra 2, SPARC 400MHz, 100Mbit NIC
18:49:03 <ehird> Server: gollum, Intel, x86 3GHz, 100Mbit NIC
18:49:19 <ehird> But you can clearly see from the graph that nostromo scales linearly.
18:49:31 <ehird> It seems to level off there.
18:49:42 <ehird> I wonder what caused the spike in http://www.nazgul.ch/images/httperf_small-l.png.
18:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I suspect nostromo will level off at some point too. Just a hunch.
18:50:10 <AnMaster> it does use select() after all.
18:50:33 <ehird> Of course nothing can scale linearly, don't you know the first thing about computers? Limited resources.
18:50:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes. But I meant before something using epoll will level off.
18:51:02 <ehird> Because epoll is shiny and new?
18:51:28 <AnMaster> ehird, because epoll doesn't need to send the fd list to the kernel every time you want to wait for something to happen
18:52:27 <ehird> Eh. It doesn't really matter all that much.
18:52:29 <AnMaster> with many concurrent clients that might all send you some data soon, this could be an issue.
18:52:45 <ehird> I mean, CGI will be a bottleneck far before select.
18:53:06 <ehird> I was just showing that nostromo scales as well as thttpd, which is a good indicator of simplicity and good design.
18:53:17 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc http allows you to reuse a connection for several requests? Like fetching images related to the page in the same connection. Might be HTTP/1.1 only or such
18:53:32 <ehird> Yeah, I don't give a damn about that
18:53:37 <ehird> If I wrote a server I probably wouldn't support it
18:54:31 <AnMaster> ehird, is that allowed by standard? Because if it isn't I'm fairly certain that it might cause problems with modern browsers. At least firefox makes use of it.
18:54:35 <AnMaster> and probably other browsers too
18:54:54 <ehird> Of course if the browser sends Connection: keep-alive or whatever it is but the connection closes anyway it just makes a new connection.
18:55:07 <ehird> There are plenty of situations where it doesn't work, I believe.
18:55:18 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway. You probably won't need to scale that much in the beginning. If you find out it doesn't scale you could replace it with something else
18:55:51 <ehird> I'm more interested in fast page loads with no-to-little load.
18:56:08 <ehird> Over the interwebternets.
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18:56:34 <ehird> That's the actually applicable situation; of course, I want pages to load very quickly (perfectly possible, e.g. Cherokee achieves this without any tweaking), and I probably won't get many concurrent visitors.
18:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, well, that depends on your page size basically. You probably want to send it compressed
18:56:45 <augur> ehird: its actually not that i need a watch, see
18:56:56 <ehird> Compression is good but there are lots of other things too
18:57:12 <augur> my grandmother is insisting on getting me a christmas gift, despite me adamant protests
18:57:28 <ehird> "despite me adamant protests". Yooth slang!
18:57:35 <coppro> what augur needs is a watchmaker *ducks*
18:57:44 <ehird> Some cognitive dissonance as soon as you hit "adamant"
18:57:52 <ehird> augur: Well make it something useful then
18:57:52 <augur> watchmaker watchmaker make meeee a watch
18:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird, can Cherokee do "compress and cache" on the fly? Like for *.html, if there is a compressed variant of the file in the cache directory, use it, otherwise compress it and cache it. Oh and re-compress and cache if the html page has been updated.
18:57:59 <augur> also, its not actually youth slang
18:58:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know.
18:58:08 <augur> well, for south in the south it might be
18:58:08 <ehird> I don't know these things.
18:58:16 <ehird> You constantly ask people if things can do things
18:58:18 <augur> also, i dont NEED anything, ehird! :|
18:58:19 <ehird> just because they mentioned the first thing
18:58:23 <ehird> That's not how knowledge works
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18:58:47 <AnMaster> ehird, huh. Sorry. But Imight just add that lighttpd has that feature. Pretty nice.
18:58:55 <ehird> I imagine most httpds have it.
18:58:55 <AnMaster> still shouldn't be hard to make something similar
18:59:06 <ehird> Here's an example of a page that loads really quickly: http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Front%20Page
18:59:10 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. but this nhttpd looks a bit limited?
18:59:16 <ehird> (Adjust for distance from the server, of course)
18:59:20 <ehird> Important things it does:
18:59:32 <ehird> Only one HTTP request; no <link> or anything
18:59:34 <AnMaster> ehird, quite fast yes. Probably not a lot to fetch. Something like html page plus one css?
18:59:50 <ehird> plus very minimalist markup (apart from whitespace)
18:59:53 <ehird> and I assume gzip compression
18:59:58 <ehird> plus, a minimalist webserver (Factor's)
19:00:00 <ehird> and I assume caching
19:00:12 <ehird> I'll probably use a <link> for CSS because I'm lazy, but eh
19:00:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Damn fast for no gzip
19:00:22 <ehird> Maybe gzip processing time outweighed it
19:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an advantage of not embedding the css in the page though. And that is if the person looks at more than one of your site's pages.
19:00:34 <ehird> AnMaster: nhttpd isn't limited, it's just minimalist
19:00:54 <ehird> lighttpd may look minimalist coming from apache... but that's a seriously skewed comparison
19:01:12 <AnMaster> ehird, with separate css file that will be cached. You could also send some cache control headers to not make the browser recheck if the cached copy is up-to-date iirc
19:01:12 <ehird> nginx is more minimalist than lighttpd by quite an amount and just about as featureful
19:01:18 <ehird> (and it doesn't leak memory, and it scales better)
19:01:22 <ehird> but it still has a lot of needless features
19:01:34 <ehird> AnMaster: concatenative's is faster in practice, though
19:01:41 <ehird> It's counterintuitive, but requests seem to be very expensive
19:01:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I never ran into the memory leak issue
19:01:53 <ehird> Lighttpd leaks memory like a sieve in many common configurations.
19:02:07 <ehird> Maybe you haven't run into it but it casts doubt on its engineering.
19:02:29 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed it does. Open bug reports?
19:02:43 <ehird> These issues are very well known, I am certain bug reports exist
19:02:59 <ehird> They've existed for years, so most people who've heard about them or especially run into them have just abandoned lighttpd
19:03:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: concatenative's is faster in practice, though <-- maybe. dropping the whitespace would be a good idea however.
19:03:18 <ehird> It's because of the templating language, I think
19:03:28 <AnMaster> and for gzip, well you could make it serve already gziped pages?
19:03:32 <ehird> You've got the \n and spaces before the <%
19:03:37 <AnMaster> ehird, oh you don't plan to pre-generate from static pages?
19:03:40 <ehird> So that gets added to the output
19:03:47 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm talking about concatenative.org
19:03:52 <ehird> and it's a dynamic site
19:03:56 <ehird> so already gzipping isn't ppractical
19:04:04 <ehird> But no, I'm not going to use static pages
19:04:19 <ehird> Too much fuss in coding, dynamic pages are simpler to write and let you do fancier stuff
19:04:29 <ehird> You can do fancier stuff by doing a hybrid static+dynamic system... but dear god no. That's just asking for pain.
19:04:30 <AnMaster> anyway you can cache pre-rendered dynamic versions
19:04:44 <ehird> Fast enough? Then don't add complexity.
19:04:53 <ehird> Especially dealing with cache invalidation... *shudder*
19:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, only needed on update of page or update of the navigation stuff. And if you only cache the page content (and not the navigation stuff) then it is trivial.
19:07:08 <AnMaster> or you could cache them separately like: shared pre-content, page content, shared post-content
19:07:14 <ehird> This is true if you have simple static content.
19:07:20 <ehird> But dynamic stuff?
19:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, true. But what exactly do you plan to have on the page?
19:07:36 <ehird> If you think cache invalidation for dynamic web content is easy... shut up until you actually have to deal with it.
19:07:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Anything. Extensible, remember>?
19:08:05 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Isn't this second system syndrome done already for the first system?
19:08:20 <ehird> It's extensible in the same way a web framework is.
19:08:50 <ehird> It handles navigation, the basic web stuff and hierarchical pages, you add your stuff to it.
19:09:20 <ehird> http://werc.cat-v.org/ does this already although the system has some design differences to mine. It's also written in rc. Do you think this extensibility and power necessitates bloat?
19:09:25 <AnMaster> ehird, takes time to learn one. Which is why there are so many. It is often easier to make your own than try to learn one someone else wrote
19:09:27 <ehird> Because werc's core is 150 lines of rc shell.
19:09:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Irrelevant, almost all the existing frameworks are both bloated, or don't do things they should.
19:10:12 <ehird> The dichotomy of web framework vs "website hierarchy manager thingybob" is false; the very fact that it's hard to name the second one shows this — it's an integral part.
19:10:34 <AnMaster> what the hell would a "website hierarchy manager thingybob" thing be?
19:10:35 <ehird> But seriously, using werc as an example again, it's basically CGI + some functions + some variables. You don't even have to write the apps in rc.
19:10:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I explained before, try keeping a backlog in your mind because you're discarding every line by the next one.
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19:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, do you mean like werc? or does that fit in the former?
19:11:22 <ehird> [19:08] ehird: It handles navigation, the basic web stuff and hierarchical pages, you add your stuff to it.
19:11:34 <ehird> That's (website hierarchy manager thingybob + web framework).
19:11:42 <ehird> No, werc is a (website hierarchy manager thingybob + web framework).
19:11:57 <AnMaster> ehird, oh so the latter isn't a subset of the former?
19:12:05 <ehird> There aren't really any standalone website hierarchy manager thingybobs. Some CMSs are similar, but they're really shit..
19:12:18 <ehird> The two things naturally belong together, and having them be the same thing makes both simpler.
19:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway you plan to do cgi? *shudder*
19:12:53 <ehird> If you complain about CGI you must complain about FastCGI, which is just CGI with a server layer and some extra crazy crap.
19:13:11 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on the reason for complaining about cgi.
19:13:23 <ehird> Go on, I'm up for rebutting.
19:13:25 <AnMaster> one is performance. FastCGI is somewhat better when it comes to that.
19:13:42 <AnMaster> the second is that it is rather ugly to code in, when it comes to this FastCGI is definitely even worse
19:13:43 <ehird> Irrelevant. The overhead Apache and other shit servers add far outweighs a simple server with CGI.
19:13:58 <ehird> It is quite ugly to code in directly, which is the whole reason I'm writing my thingy.
19:14:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Even lighttpd.
19:14:10 <AnMaster> ehird, doesn't ngnix support fastcgi?
19:14:28 <ehird> Yes, and no CGI. http://suckless.org/ uses a CGI-wrapping fastcgi to run werc on nginx, heh.
19:14:46 <ehird> As I said, even nginx has needless features. A FastCGI-like thing is of course needed if you have a very popular website.
19:14:56 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway there is a solution. And that is to integrate the dynamic pages more tightly with the web server. Like yaws.
19:15:03 <ehird> I'd suggest SCGI; it's a very light protocol and no FastCGI-like cruft.
19:15:09 <ehird> There is no solution needed.
19:15:11 <ehird> It is in search of a problem.
19:15:23 <ehird> It found one: "CGI is slow on most web servers".
19:15:28 <ehird> But the problem there is most web servers...
19:15:30 <AnMaster> ehird, SCGI is pretty nice yes.
19:15:43 <ehird> The problem it should try to find is "really popular sites fail with CGI even on minimalist web servers".
19:15:58 <ehird> But that's niche, and solutions searching for problems seem to try and find the most general one they can.
19:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you'll say google would use CGI next :P
19:16:32 <ehird> Google isn't really popular?
19:16:48 <ehird> Part of it, at least.
19:18:12 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can think of some more: twitter, youtube (except google bought them some time ago), possibly sites like last.fm and such. Not sure about slashdot (from what I remember they use something horrible java based crap)
19:18:29 <ehird> Slashdot is horrific, horrific Perl code that requires root and shits all over your system.
19:20:39 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway probably sites like reddit too?
19:20:50 * ehird gives an example http response from his httpd if he'd write one to see how anmaster reacts
19:20:50 <ehird> content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8
19:21:22 <ehird> Compare with w3.org, one of the *lighter* sites header-wise... http://pastie.org/689155.txt?key=v492i5n9ybfvshobv4iwa
19:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure there should be one or two more headers there. Anyway what about virtual hosts?
19:21:38 <ehird> Especially providing the "human-readable" thing like
19:21:43 <ehird> HTTP/1.1 403 Permission Denied
19:21:45 <AnMaster> ehird, don't you need "Content-Length: 29707"?
19:21:51 <ehird> works just the same
19:22:03 <ehird> That's just for static files
19:22:06 <ehird> to give their length
19:22:09 <ehird> I'd probably include it though
19:22:14 <AnMaster> ehird, that would require people to check. Unless you provide an error page as well
19:22:26 <ehird> Um, people don't see the http headers.
19:22:32 <ehird> And anyone who does know what the code means.
19:22:37 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and wget -c will fail with your web server
19:22:47 <ehird> content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8
19:22:48 <ehird> content-length: 6345
19:22:49 <AnMaster> to resume downloads that broke down in the middle
19:22:55 <ehird> AnMaster: No it won't.
19:23:05 <AnMaster> if you can't resume from the middle
19:23:16 <ehird> -c will try and resume in the request, and the server will comply.
19:23:29 <ehird> Unless it makes a dummy request to see if it's supported before trying, which is retarded.
19:23:33 <ehird> If it does, then, fine:
19:23:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well okay, I guess you could accept it without telling anyone you did
19:23:52 <ehird> content-type: xxx/warez-porn
19:23:52 <ehird> content-length: 6345
19:23:52 <ehird> accept-ranges: bytes
19:24:08 <ehird> Maybe an etag: header for caching.
19:24:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I was more thinking this would be useful for install iso's for your distro
19:24:27 <AnMaster> ehird, no server tag to tell what server?
19:24:29 <ehird> The main thing is that pointless headers like Server: need to go, the pointless capitalisation needs to go, and the pointless response code names need to go
19:24:41 <ehird> No reason to lengthen every request with trivia
19:24:43 <AnMaster> ehird, is the standard case insensitive?
19:24:46 <ehird> Sites that want you to know will tell you anyway
19:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you have against the capitalisation though
19:25:09 <AnMaster> it doesn't matter either way in load
19:25:20 <ehird> We write our variable names in lowercase because caps look awkward
19:25:22 <AnMaster> wouldn't surprise me if it broke some clients
19:25:26 <ehird> And headers are just an associative array
19:25:27 <ehird> AnMaster: It doesn't.
19:25:35 <ehird> And besides, it means that it's simpler to collapse duplicate headers.
19:25:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> We write our variable names in lowercase because caps look awkward <-- we do? Well depends on language
19:25:42 <ehird> You don't need to handle capitalisation, just lowercase everything
19:25:48 <ehird> AnMaster: I do, at least.
19:26:06 <AnMaster> ehird, some languages have foo = atom Foo = variable or similar
19:26:22 <ehird> Anyway, I guess I have to write this server now.
19:26:23 <AnMaster> ehird, but in C I would use lower_case_with_underscore
19:26:30 <ehird> I bet I can beat most other server's performance.
19:26:34 <ehird> With less code, too.
19:26:39 <ehird> Like, say.... 500 SLOC?
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19:26:48 <ehird> I need to brb now for about 15 minutes, then I guess I'll start.
19:26:51 <AnMaster> ehird, probably for small loads. Not sure with 5000 concurrent clients :P
19:26:57 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes with 5,000 concurrent clients.
19:27:02 <ehird> Even 10k; C10k was a decade ago.
19:27:22 <AnMaster> and sure you could make it. But so can other servers
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19:39:56 <AnMaster> ehird, why not just use that factor thing that you said was so fast?
20:01:19 <ehird> AnMaster: various reasons. the sever itself isn't _that_ fast anyway
20:01:25 <ehird> also, sure, but most servers don't
20:01:28 <ehird> because they're shit.
20:02:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> also, sure, but most servers don't <-- don't what?
20:03:03 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure lighttpd does for example. nginx probably does too?
20:03:46 <ehird> At least not without some SERIOUS hardware.
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20:03:59 <ehird> And computers are big, too. You can buy a 1000MHz machine with 2 gigabytes of RAM and an 1000Mbit/sec Ethernet card for $1200 or so. Let's see - at 20000 clients, that's 50KHz, 100Kbytes, and 50Kbits/sec per client. It shouldn't take any more horsepower than that to take four kilobytes from the disk and send them to the network once a second for each of twenty thousand clients
20:04:15 <ehird> C10k means you can do it on a single-core 1 GHz machine with 2 GiB of RAM and a 1 Gb/s Ethernet card.
20:04:16 <AnMaster> ehird, what about cheroke or such?
20:04:25 <ehird> Cherokee is very ununixy.
20:04:38 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. but does it do c10k?
20:05:15 <ehird> Remember what I said about asking people such things just because they mentioned the name of a thing...?
20:05:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you seemed to know about lighttpd and nginx?
20:05:55 <ehird> I'm almost certain lighttpd and nginx can't do it on such specs.
20:06:02 -!- Slereah_ has quit.
20:06:12 <ehird> "(Another book which might be more helpful for those who are *using* rather than *writing* a web server is Building Scalable Web Sites by Cal Henderson.)"
20:06:13 <ehird> Hey, C10K mentions our own iamcal.
20:06:17 <ehird> Okay, so not technically our own.
20:06:39 <ehird> O'Reilly published too. Swanky.
20:08:49 <ehird> Okay, so, basic architecture: epoll(), probably fork(), pass over to handler. Have helper functions for headers and stuff.
20:09:12 <AnMaster> "[lighttpd] was originally written [...] as a proof-of-concept of the c10k problem (how to handle 10000 connections in parallel on one server),[1] but now has substantial worldwide popularity [...]"
20:09:23 <ehird> That doesn't mean it met it.
20:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are saying it didn't?
20:09:44 <ehird> http://www.fefe.de/fnord/2.5.50-scalability.png
20:09:55 <ehird> Linux 2.5.50 (old! but similar to 2.6) scalability of web servers.
20:10:04 <ehird> By doing C10k I mean doing it gracefully, naturally.
20:10:12 <ehird> Taking 30 seconds to load a page isn't acceptable.
20:10:55 <fizzie> If that's really usec, that Y axis only goes up to 60 milliseconds, which I guess is still pretty reasonable latency.
20:11:06 <ehird> Excellent scalability from both thttpd and fnord. fnord clearly wins though.
20:11:08 <AnMaster> ehird, of course. but taking twice the time as usual could be (if "usual" is tiny). Say 0.2 seconds instead of 0.1 (unreasonable example figures, just an example)
20:11:26 <ehird> Something like 0.3 ms nearing C10k from fnord.
20:11:29 <ehird> Very good latency.
20:11:36 <AnMaster> ehird, why does the bar for fnord end early there?
20:11:48 <ehird> "The fnord plot ends at 8000 connections because I couldn't open more connections before fnord kept timing out the old ones"
20:11:59 <AnMaster> ehird, so it doesn't really scale that well
20:12:02 <ehird> (From the author of fnord; strikingly honest)
20:12:14 <ehird> It just times out like most servers
20:12:22 <ehird> You misunderstand the quote
20:12:47 <ehird> Presumably because it doesn't do timeouts.
20:12:51 <ehird> Or because the timeout was set really high.
20:13:08 <ehird> It's a hardware limitation.
20:13:18 <AnMaster> anyway why is there so little "noise" in the the fnord plot?
20:13:20 <ehird> Fnord is clearly more scalable on given hardware because the latency increases much more slowly.
20:13:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Good engineering..
20:13:37 <ehird> "CGI (through pipes, not temp files like Apache)"
20:13:37 <ehird> APACHE DOES CGI THROUGH TEMP FILES? >_<
20:13:39 <AnMaster> ehird, does it run in kernel space or user space?
20:13:45 <ehird> Userspace, of course...
20:13:59 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> APACHE DOES CGI THROUGH TEMP FILES? >_< <-- I would be surprised if it does any more in that case!
20:14:23 <AnMaster> like, it would break if you were producing a large file dynamically for download
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20:15:08 <ehird> "thttpd is the fastest web server known to me." says fnord's author
20:15:18 <ehird> but fnord clearly scales better
20:15:37 <ehird> Hmm, fnord fork()s for every request, seems like that's a good architecture
20:15:42 <ehird> It's unixy, so I should have guessed
20:16:34 <AnMaster> ehird, would work on linux due to cheap fork() (mostly due to COW, but also pretty fast in other areas)
20:16:54 <ehird> Threading servers have the same latency of fork() on Linux of course.
20:17:08 <ehird> Latency, I mean overhead
20:17:10 <ehird> You know what I mean
20:17:28 <AnMaster> ehird, potentially less on some bsds. m:n threads there. Though iirc freebsd at least switched to 1:1 since then
20:17:32 <ehird> IT IS NOT MEANT FOR ANY MORTAL!
20:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, link to a file from it?
20:17:56 <ehird> Event-based servers and async IO and all that stuff... with a language not designed for that sort of thing?
20:17:59 <AnMaster> (so I can just open it directly in an editor)
20:18:04 <ehird> Just don't even go there.
20:18:07 <ehird> AnMaster: No particular server.
20:18:23 <ehird> AIO and event-based servers may be faster than fork()ing servers... but it's not worth the payoff.
20:18:45 <AnMaster> oh I thought you mean fnord code XD
20:19:05 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I have done event based IO in C. Worked on ircds after all.
20:19:29 <AnMaster> (that isn't AIO though, just non-blocking)
20:19:38 <ehird> I'm skeptical of the common acceptance of asynchronous IO as the only way to do an ircd.
20:19:43 <ehird> fork() is really cheap.
20:20:05 <ehird> Yeah it's called FIFO files... or a Unix socket
20:20:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I think that is the main reason why you want one thread. Because they need to talk to each other a lot. In various directions
20:20:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Sounds like an excuse for spaghetti code
20:20:28 <AnMaster> like lots of channels and /msg out of nowhere
20:20:38 <ehird> "Oh, but I'd have to write so much code that makes explicit the communication!"
20:20:41 <ehird> That's a good thing.
20:21:35 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, an ircd is supposed to handle thousands of clients per server. Plus routing for lots more (multiple linked servers after all)
20:21:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you will need to handle "send to other server" in some other way than a pipe per channel or such.
20:22:02 <ehird> If a fork()ing webserver can handle 8,000 clients at once in the era of Linux 2.5...
20:22:13 <ehird> Then a fork()ing ircd can handle many more today.
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20:22:26 <AnMaster> ehird, webservers doesn't do a lot of IPC. Probably none or close to none
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20:22:41 <ehird> AnMaster: IPC can be fast, I'm sure.
20:22:46 <ehird> It'd be ridiculous if it couldn't be.
20:23:45 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. Go ahead and write an ircd using pipes. and that supports linking to other servers. and scales to 5000 active clients per server or so.
20:24:13 <AnMaster> and huge channels. Last I looked #ubuntu had over 1000 people in it.
20:24:26 <AnMaster> that was the day karmic was released though
20:24:30 <ehird> Server-to-server communication would be easy, at least... since you'd already have the infrastructure.
20:24:34 <ehird> 1000 people is peanuts.
20:24:42 <AnMaster> #gentoo is generally around 900-950
20:24:44 <ehird> We have computers with massive power nowadays... and fork() is really cheap.
20:24:54 <ehird> It tingles my skeptic nerve to assert that this is a challenge.
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20:26:29 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and really you shouldn't compare to the freenode ircd when it comes to performance. That isn't like comparing to apache. It's like comparing to that "personal web sharing" thing mac os 9 had. Or to that down sized ISS thing for windows 9x
20:26:38 <ehird> Did I say I'd compare to it?
20:26:47 <AnMaster> ehird, just warning you ahead of time
20:26:59 <ehird> Also, hey, OS X has Personal Web Sharing too. It's Apache :P
20:27:09 <AnMaster> ehird, it wasn't apache in OS 9
20:27:17 <ehird> Holy shit, Synchronet is still developed
20:27:41 <ehird> Weird old BBS software
20:27:55 <ehird> Nowadays runs on Windows with lots of Javascript for some reason
20:27:57 <AnMaster> ehird, why did you even check on that
20:28:07 <coppro> but I only saw 1100 when I went in
20:28:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Its ircd was mentioned in the Wikipedia list of ircds
20:28:25 <ehird> coppro: they're invisible
20:28:35 <AnMaster> so it is only updated every n <time unit>
20:29:05 <AnMaster> ehird, service to search in channel list.
20:29:44 <ehird> The program is named SEXPOTS, with homage to the very successful SEXYZ project. This program adds dial-up modem support to any Windows TCP/Socket/Telnet-based BBS (e.g. Synchronet-Win32). Deuce has a *nix version in the works and has also recently added dial-up modem support to SyncTERM to complete the old-school BBS experience using actual <gasp> modems! Vertrauen can now be dialed directly at 951-549-9994.
20:29:47 <ehird> ...circa june 2008
20:29:51 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw another reason to avoid IPC. Depending on what sort of IPC that you use, it can look worse than AIO code...
20:29:55 <ehird> yep, the author sure is up on the modern age
20:30:06 <ehird> AnMaster: Unix sockets or FIFO files, probably.
20:30:10 <ehird> Both easy, simple, intuitive.
20:30:14 <ehird> The latter moreso.
20:30:33 <ehird> I'd definitely never touch sysv ipc.
20:31:34 <jix> can you do one to many ipc with it?
20:31:58 <jix> one process sends multiple processes listen
20:32:01 <jix> on one "channel"
20:32:13 <AnMaster> jix, not with pipes no. Not sure about unix sockets
20:32:32 <jix> ehird: ah ... unix sockets and fifo files
20:32:47 <AnMaster> I assume ehird will use some sort of channel "thread/process" for each channel
20:32:59 <ehird> I'll just fork() on client connect.
20:33:08 <ehird> This is about how to handle networking...
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20:33:27 <AnMaster> ehird, so when one client sends to #ubuntu it will need to write to 1000 pipes?
20:33:30 -!- oklokok has joined.
20:33:35 <ehird> I don't recall saying that.
20:33:41 <ehird> (But you have to write to 1000 sockets anyway, you know.)
20:33:58 * Sgeo reads some of the Acme:: stuff at CPAN
20:34:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not locally. Some could be remote. So that means one server write
20:34:18 <ehird> 1000 sockets as in the client sockets.
20:34:18 <jix> AnMaster: well then you have one remote pipe
20:34:21 <ehird> In the channel, you see.
20:34:36 <ehird> You will have to do 1000 socket writes no matter what... and writing to 1000 pipes suddenly seems tiny.
20:34:44 <AnMaster> jix, yes but the client process has to keep track of who is in what channel and who are local and who are remote
20:35:12 <jix> AnMaster: but that's another problem...
20:35:15 <Sgeo> http://search.cpan.org/~gugod/Acme-Boolean-0.3/lib/Acme/Boolean.pm
20:35:18 <AnMaster> jix, which, since it won't be covered by COW, will be stored in multiple copies in the memory
20:35:22 <Sgeo> There's no FILE_NOT_FOUND :(
20:35:39 <fizzie> Writing to N sockets sounds like it'd take less effort than writing to N [anything]s, which are then read by N separately scheduled processes, and then furthermore written to N network sockets.
20:36:16 <ehird> You have to have a step in between, it's a matter of figuring out what that is.
20:36:21 <ehird> Unless you go for spaghetti code.
20:36:29 <ehird> In which case, yeah, I'm not interested.
20:36:54 <jix> wouldn't you have to make sure that the writes are nonblocking
20:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, so you define "spaghetti code" as anything using a single thread with non-blocking IO and select()/epoll/similar?
20:37:11 <AnMaster> that is the only way I can read what you said
20:37:24 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not interested in continuing this conversation until you decide to stop jumping to incorrect inclusions.
20:37:28 <jix> doing kinda your own scheduling for all write queues?
20:37:50 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say it was up to the person talking to make sure the message was interpretable?
20:38:46 <ehird> There's a difference between
20:38:49 <ehird> (a) misunderstanding, and
20:38:50 <AnMaster> jix, in part yes. you will have the same problem with the pipes however.
20:38:59 <ehird> (b) vaguely understanding, then leaping t o a conclusion without too much thought
20:39:33 <AnMaster> ehird, then I suggest you clarify. Because I spent quite some thought on it.
20:39:41 <fizzie> Having that "step" done in a single user-space thread sounds still better than bothering the kernel task scheduler with N separate tasks-to-switch, but whatever. Obviously this is all idle speculation until someone actually goes and benchmarks things.
20:39:49 <ehird> AnMaster, professional intellectual. I mean exactly what I said and with no hidden meaning.
20:40:24 <ehird> You do realise that saying "true." to everyone who makes a coherent and rational disagreement with me, which you haven't yet done, doesn't bolster your argument magically?
20:40:33 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. You are now saying that it is up to the reader to make sure to understand it. Yes you are a hypocrite. No it doesn't make it better that you admit it.
20:40:38 <ehird> fizzie: That's true, but my design wasn't quite like that.
20:41:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Funnily enough, I clarified the difference between the two wildly different things. Do you really expect this conversation to go anywhere? No? Then shut up.
20:41:10 <AnMaster> ehird, managing to type those [0010] things doesn't make you look smart either.
20:41:20 <AnMaster> wasn't it data stream escape or something like that?
20:41:26 <ehird> I pressed it by mistake and didn't notice.
20:41:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I could say that to you too.
20:41:50 <ehird> "doesn't make you look smart"; are you a nursery teacher?
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20:42:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm afraid I didn't get that reference.
20:42:39 <jix> AnMaster: it's no reference... he says exactly what he means
20:42:46 <jix> AnMaster: he just wants to know if you are a nursery teacher...
20:44:13 <jix> ehird: so how exactly would you structure the ircd?
20:44:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, all you have to do when processing the message in a single thread is indeed to figure out where it should go (local clients in channel + servers with clients in channel, you don't need to know which users here, just store local clients + servers with clients in channel list (have a separate list of remote clients, needed for other stuff))
20:44:40 <AnMaster> then to write to the relevant fds (handling write queue as needed)
20:44:47 <ehird> jix: I haven't fleshed out the idea because I was too busy listening to and foolishly responding to AnMaster's inane babble (and that's the truth, not a passive-aggressive insult)
20:45:08 <AnMaster> and yes you need to handle write queue with pipes too. They have a limited kernel buffer as well
20:45:35 <ehird> [IRCServices] Ircd's and Services....
20:45:36 <ehird> I believe the only multi-threaded ircd out there is efnet's. I could be wrong. Given your features, there is nothing that is multi-threaded that has this. ...
20:45:37 <ehird> lists.ircservices.za.net/pipermail/ircservices/2000/000856.html - Similar -
20:45:45 <fizzie> Speaking of IPC, I sometimes wonder how fast those old-style meant-for-IPC constructs are nowadays. Like, let's say, sysv message queues, where you can msgsnd() things to one message queue, have a "long"-typed message type field in each, and have N other processes doing msgrcv() that are optionally filtered by the message type; it supports "return first message", "return first message of a given type" and even the rather strange "return the first lowest-typed
20:45:45 <fizzie> message in the queue as long as the type is less than or equal to the given type".
20:45:48 <ehird> AnMaster: do you think efnet's ircd scales?
20:45:54 <AnMaster> ehird, just want to add that efnet uses multiple ircds
20:45:56 <ehird> (even back in 2000 it most certainly did)
20:46:06 <ehird> i think they used just one ircd back in 2000
20:46:14 <ehird> Anyway, efnet very clearly scales.
20:46:24 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe. I can only comment on current state
20:46:35 <AnMaster> since I have no clue what they did in 2000
20:46:37 <ehird> ratbox is the majority server on efnet anyway
20:46:47 <jix> ehird: on efnet i sometimes have significant lag to others
20:47:03 <jix> ehird: too often and too much to say it's me or the others connection
20:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, so the ircd mentioned in that mail is ratbox?
20:47:12 <ehird> jix: True, but EFNet is also basically DDoSed constantly.
20:47:13 <jix> but that doesn't imply it's the ircds fault
20:47:20 <ehird> jix: And it has the gnarliest mass of routing servers ever.
20:47:29 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll check.
20:48:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> jix: And it has the gnarliest mass of routing servers ever. <-- isn't ircnet just as bad when it comes to the routing?
20:48:33 <ehird> Eh, can't figure out.
20:48:47 <ehird> Whatever — EFNet was threaded in 2000, and EFNet clearly scaled in 2000.
20:49:03 <ehird> And since fork() is, like, 10x more hip than threads, it will undoubtedly work. :P
20:49:41 <jix> but when you fork you have the problem of accessing the central state of the irc network don't you?
20:49:50 <jix> or having to keep multiple copies of it
20:49:56 <jix> or multiple copies of parts of it
20:50:05 <AnMaster> ehird, except fork() has slightly higher overhead. Due to COW. Because with threads you can already from creating the thread have thread local variables ready and allocated, but with fork() those will be COWed on first use. Shouldn't matter much however.
20:50:16 <ehird> jix: that's just another instance of ipc
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20:50:26 <ehird> COW overhead is, like, 0 :P
20:50:39 <jix> ehird: so you would go with a central process managing the state?
20:50:42 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and updates to the state won't happend transparently. Since if changed that will be COW
20:51:02 <ehird> jix: Yes, the parent
20:51:10 <ehird> even fork()ing webservers
20:51:12 <ehird> access global state
20:51:20 <ehird> these "issues" are really inane
20:51:33 <jix> ehird: but webservers use global state in a completely different way AFAIK
20:51:38 <AnMaster> ehird, that adds a memory overhead per process. How significant it would be depends on how much state you have to keep up-to-date in each fork
20:51:59 <AnMaster> jix, yes, they rarely need to update it at run time.
20:52:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Global mutable state is something to be avoided generally anyway.
20:52:17 <AnMaster> ircds support reloading configs on the fly, and I doubt any irc operator would like to use an ircd that didn't support it
20:52:26 <jix> ehird: but isn't that inherent to irc?
20:52:39 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't want to restart an ircd to change server links. Just saying.
20:52:41 <ehird> jix: In the same way that games depend on mutation and procedural code; i.e. not at all.
20:53:03 <ehird> [20:52] AnMaster: ircds support reloading configs on the fly, and I doubt any irc operator would like to use an ircd that didn't support it
20:53:04 <ehird> just spawn an ircd with the new config, move all child processes to it, tell them about it, and kill the old one
20:53:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> just spawn an ircd with the new config, move all child processes to it, tell them about it, and kill the old one <-- interesting. *shudder*
20:53:52 <ehird> That's not interesting, that's a robust, simple technique to restart a server without downtime.
20:53:56 <ehird> It's done for upgrades too with some servers.
20:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I will be very surprised if this doesn't end up with uglier code than a single threaded one would
20:54:20 <jix> ehird: but from the users point of view (many) games depend on mutation... so you have to come up with a way to describe that mutation without actually doing mutation
20:54:23 <ehird> You would do well to check an idea I've expressed isn't common before blanket-asserting that it's bad like usual
20:54:38 <ehird> jix: there has been lots of work done on games in functional languages, it's actually quite pleasant
20:54:43 <jix> ehird: i know
20:54:52 <jix> ehird: i'd use functional languages for game dev too
20:54:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not saying it hasn't been done. But I read the code of some too.
20:55:18 <jix> ehird: i was just saying that you can't avoid managing a state that can be mutated if the irc protocol specifies a mutable state
20:55:34 <jix> even if you have a purly functional language and use something like a state monad
20:56:24 <jix> and if you do that in one central process that IPCs to all other processes
20:56:39 <AnMaster> jix, channel modes and bans? Stuff like that would be hard without mutable state
20:56:56 <jix> then you'd have to do event based IO in that process to server the childs? (that is a question)
20:58:11 <ehird> I can't answer questions about the design because I've been too busy guessing answers to questions about the design to formulate the desiggn.
20:58:44 <jix> ehird: then please keep my question in mind until you get the design done
20:58:50 <jix> because that's the point where i'm stuck
20:59:03 <jix> when i try to design a forking ircd
20:59:49 <ehird> Ha! I am not crazy! Other people are as non-crazy as m— wait, no, I don't think this logically follows.
20:59:57 <AnMaster> jix, you could do shared memory. like shared mmap()ed pages
21:00:06 <ehird> Shared memory is evil
21:00:10 <ehird> and your fork()s just become threads
21:00:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just about to get to that
21:00:53 <AnMaster> I was going to say "but that would be painful and require lots of synchronization and similar"
21:01:48 <fizzie> I do have to say an ircd doesn't sound quite as inherently suitable for a multi-process-for-each-client/peer implementation as a web server; for the supposedly-mentioned-but-can't-see-them-through-the-wall-of-text reasons of having each connection a long-lived thing that can affect all the other connections in various ways. (While in the web server case, after you've fork'd, the child just has to basically read(), sendfile() and exit().)
21:02:10 <ehird> Obviously it can't be designed in the same way as a webserver.
21:03:16 <fizzie> Besides, you'll end up with a thousand-process "ps" listing, and that's just ugly. :p
21:03:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus possibly do some logging (regarding forked child in web server that is)
21:04:18 <ehird> fizzie: But useful!
21:04:46 <AnMaster> ehird, "argh I can't find which process is hogging the CPU because the list is so damn long"?
21:04:56 <ehird> Hellooooooo, top(1)
21:04:57 <AnMaster> (not really, just sort on a column)
21:05:27 <fizzie> The usefulness is probably in the fact that you can run psdoom and go kill IRC people that you're annoyed with.
21:05:32 <AnMaster> which means something like: ps aux | LC_ALL=C sort -nk 3
21:05:41 <AnMaster> the LC_ALL=C there because locales messes up
21:05:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Or just top
21:06:04 <AnMaster> ps always uses 1.0, sort uses 1.0 or 1,0 or whatever the locale uses
21:06:48 <ehird> Fuck l10n? I guess you'll be speaking exclusively in English from hereon after, then.
21:07:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: Or just "ps auxk -%cpu"; you know, ps can do the sorting just fine.
21:07:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well no, rather it should be "fuck l10n related issues"
21:07:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and why localise to English? ;P
21:08:27 <ehird> Because it's the most international language? I would say most widely used, but China wins on the account of having a huge fucking number of people.
21:08:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: "k" for "sort", of kourse.
21:08:41 <ehird> Other languages will die out within time.
21:08:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah because "sort" contains no "k"
21:08:58 <jix> ehird: i doubt that
21:09:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: It might be "sort *k*ey", but that's a bit far-fetched.
21:09:11 <ehird> jix: I'm not surprised.
21:09:24 <jix> ehird: but that's just a feeling thing right now i have nothing to support that
21:09:29 <fizzie> GNU has a "--sort" long-flag which is a bit more rememberable.
21:10:19 <AnMaster> argh what is this database "mimer"? Never heard of it before. Seems to be used at uni. Sigh
21:10:42 <fizzie> "top" might still be better, though; it hopefully sorts processes before rounding things to the ##.# percentage format of ps.
21:10:50 <jix> hmm wasn't at some point someone studying computer scince in luebeck here?
21:11:17 <jix> fizzie: i hope ps sorts before doing that too
21:12:27 <jix> and looking at the mac os x ps (some bsd ps according to the manpage) i need -r to sort for cpu usage
21:13:22 <fizzie> Yes, it's a bit nonstandard; the "k %cpu" works for this procps 3.2.8 ps I have.
21:13:45 <ehird> jix: all os x userland is bsd.
21:14:03 <jix> ehird: define userland
21:14:13 <fizzie> This one has the "r" flag report only currently-running processes.
21:14:29 <ehird> jix: cli userspace
21:14:37 <ehird> apart from the shit it changed which is minor
21:14:42 <ehird> all the coreutils etc are bsd
21:15:05 <fizzie> (On my system it seems to mean I get the "ps auxr" command itself, and not much else; sometimes an [events/0] kernel thread, and once X in a 20-run set.)
21:15:10 <jix> ehird: well there are some additional tools that are from apple
21:15:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what about stuff like hdiutil (if I remember the name correctly)
21:15:23 <jix> the whole *util thing being part of that
21:15:44 <AnMaster> r Restrict the selection to only running processes.
21:15:55 <AnMaster> so you have more than one core and/or cpu
21:16:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: <fizzie> This one has the "r" flag report only currently-running processes.
21:16:27 <fizzie> Isn't that what I said?
21:16:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh sure. Missed that line somehow
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21:27:15 <ehird> I wonder what the best HMD is
21:27:27 <ehird> HAHA ATTACK OF THE WORD YOU PROBABLYY DON'T KNOW
21:29:55 <fizzie> It must be... Heavy Metal Detox. What on earth have you been doing?
21:30:44 <fizzie> "Han Moo Do is a Korean-style martial art founded in Finland. It is mainly practiced in the Nordic countries."
21:32:50 <AnMaster> ehird, head mounted display I assume?
21:34:29 <AnMaster> ehird, to know the word I mean (for me, that is. Not for people not interested in avionics or wearable computing)
21:35:45 <AnMaster> ehird, "targeting by looking" basically. Unlike with a HUD. Takes longer than just turning the head to target an aircraft that isn't straight ahead
21:35:57 <ehird> No, head mounted display is a display that's mounted on your head.
21:36:01 <ehird> Targeting by looking would be eye tracking.
21:36:24 <AnMaster> ehird, indeed. But you need a HMD to see the targeting info. Since a HUD wouldn't be where you are looking any more
21:36:40 <AnMaster> you could be looking to your side rather than ahead
21:36:42 <ehird> Avionics HMDs are mostly transparent, yeah?
21:37:01 <AnMaster> ehird, somewhat similar to a HUD in that respect
21:37:58 <ehird> In wearable computing it's a usual LCD of course.
21:38:03 <AnMaster> oh god I think this module will kill me. SQL stuff. And not just as a useful tool. But all the damn theory too
21:38:15 <ehird> Relational theory stuff is quite good, I think.
21:38:27 <ehird> SQL itself isn't a useful tool, though... nor is it relational.
21:38:27 <AnMaster> and using some weird closed source db server called "mimer sql"
21:38:45 <ehird> Transparent bendable OLEDs don't seem to have made it to market yet and I doubt they're very good for text.
21:39:08 <ehird> So a display attached to some safety goggles in your peripheral vision that you can focus on appears to be the best solution.
21:39:25 <ehird> The question is, which? The MyVu Crystal has colours, sure... but it's only 640x480.
21:39:40 <ehird> And at 1600 ppi, 640x480 does NOT get you much text. Or, well, anything, even at normal ppi.
21:40:07 <ehird> (It's not so bad since the .5" block of magic is close to your vision so it appears much bigger. But still.)
21:40:10 <AnMaster> ehird, for avionics you need some text (distance to target, speed, altitude, possibly AoA, that sort of stuff) and some vector graphics (horizon line, and such).
21:40:45 <ehird> I want the end result to be as close as possible to something I can program on, browse Wikipedia with and IRC with little trouble.
21:41:12 <ehird> And preferably well-designed enough that it's easy to start to use within seconds — e.g. going from walking to using it.
21:41:19 <ehird> (Extra points if it's usable while walking, though that's not likely.)
21:41:23 <AnMaster> ehird, that is hardly the goal of HMD for combat pilots though. I don't know much about the HMDs that people like Gregor are interested in
21:41:25 <ehird> A voice-based system could dothat.
21:41:44 <ehird> AnMaster: People like Gregor and me! Except Gregor has a working wearable computer that he actually uses and I don't. :P
21:41:49 <ehird> HMDs are just tiny LCDs, really.
21:42:30 <AnMaster> <ehird> (Extra points if it's usable while walking, though that's not likely.) <-- you could do an overlay to display map, somewhat like GPS with navigation capabilities
21:43:02 <ehird> Readable through the bounce, bounce, bounce of walking?
21:43:04 <ehird> That would be some feat.
21:43:21 <ehird> Anyway, afaik nobody uses a wearable computer to program.
21:43:40 <AnMaster> ehird, never had to consider bouncing like that in aircrafts. :P
21:43:46 <ehird> I wonder if I could make it unobtrusive enough to go to bed with. That'd be some immersive alarm clock.
21:43:54 <AnMaster> because you can do navigation stuff on a HMD
21:44:04 <AnMaster> like highlighting where the air strip is
21:44:18 <AnMaster> I know that feature exists on some HUDs at least
21:44:32 <AnMaster> outline of area where you need to land. Very useful
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21:44:46 <ehird> Main issue with sleeping with it would be the headset (if any), the display and the computer itself.
21:44:52 <ehird> Keyboard and pointing device should be fine.
21:45:13 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't bother too much about that bit
21:45:35 <ehird> People sleep with headphones on, so the headset should be fine; sleeping with safety glasses on is trivial, and the computer itself just needs to be in a pocket or whatever, not in a backpack. At least optionally.
21:45:59 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, how does that work with normal glasses?
21:46:10 <fizzie> The UI-ART people at the university are doing "Urban contextual information interfaces with multimodal augmented reality"; I think they were supposed to have some sort of Nokia-built silly head-mounted-display eye-tracking glasses prototype thing. I just can't seem to find any information about that part, just boring scientific papers about acoustics, eye-tracking and information retrieval.
21:46:17 <ehird> The same way; Gregor used safety goggles because he doesn't need glasses, and I'll do the same.
21:46:21 <AnMaster> you mount the computer display on them? or do you wear the other glases on top
21:46:52 <ehird> Despite spending a large portion of my life staring at a display (CRT, even) without many breaks, I have better vision than most people! mwahahaha
21:47:36 <ehird> At high resolution, too.
21:47:42 <ehird> My refresh rate was... so low.
21:47:47 <AnMaster> ehird, does staring on a display really affect your long term vision though=
21:47:47 <ehird> I think like 60 Hz or something
21:47:55 <ehird> AnMaster: A constantly-flashing CRT?
21:48:04 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yeah if it was 60 Hz
21:48:13 <ehird> Not just 60 Hz, 60 Hz on a really bad, old CRT.
21:48:21 * Sgeo has one good eye, and one eye that can barely see
21:48:23 <ehird> AnMaster: 80 Hz is the comfortable refresh for a CRT.
21:48:26 <ehird> Everything below is bad.
21:48:30 <ehird> 100 Hz is glorious.
21:48:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I began my computing with a laptop. Never had a CRT. Used CRTs yes, but never owned one.
21:48:57 <ehird> Anyway, the flickering was compounded by the high resolution at 17"...
21:49:01 <ehird> (smaller than 17" LCD; CRT)
21:49:12 <ehird> And the bad CRT blurring things...
21:49:22 <ehird> Yet I still have awesome sight.
21:50:05 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't. *shrug*. Maybe the effect it has on vision is somewhat indivdual?
21:50:24 <ehird> I'm pretty sure I'm just durable. My metabolism is really fast, too, so I'm permanently uber-skinny.
21:50:35 <ehird> And I don't seem to require all that much sustenance.
21:50:36 <Sgeo> Why would CRTs hae an effect on vision?
21:50:39 <AnMaster> oh wait that doesn't work. I had glasses before I really began using computer much
21:50:43 <ehird> Sgeo: because they flash every update
21:50:47 <ehird> that's how they work
21:50:53 <ehird> frame sent, it fades quickly, frame sent
21:51:05 <ehird> at 80 Hz, it's not that noticeable, at 100 Hz, it disappears to the human eye
21:51:10 <ehird> anything below 80 Hz, you can see the flickering
21:51:16 <Sgeo> I imagine that that could cause headaches, but how can it hurt vision? </not-a-doctor>
21:51:18 <ehird> and your eyes are being pounded with flashing light
21:51:27 <ehird> Sgeo: imagine staring at a strobe light for hours upon hours
21:51:32 <ehird> that's pretty much it
21:52:46 <AnMaster> ehird, the CRTs I used were mostly apple. Which were good ones I guess. Even back on performas
21:53:10 <ehird> Mine was a second-hand 17" Compaq that had a scratch in the casing.
21:53:23 <AnMaster> ehird, ran at some 5xx * something res iirc
21:53:51 <AnMaster> ehird, why didn't you run it at lower res?
21:54:15 <ehird> And the flicker didn't bother me.
21:54:21 <AnMaster> non-highest res doesn't look bad on a CRT
21:54:21 <ehird> And I could read the tiny, smudged text.
21:54:44 <ehird> The question is, why not more pixels? I didn't care about eye strain because I'd never had a problem (and it seems I was right).
21:54:50 <ehird> I usually ran at 1280x1024, I think. No, wait, that's 5:4. Um... maybe it was stretched and I never knew.
21:55:23 <AnMaster> 1280x1024 is pretty common for 17" iirc?
21:55:24 <ehird> I think I used PowerStrip to get a higher res than Windows would allow, but ran into the limit of my 32 MiB SiS graphics...
21:55:31 <ehird> AnMaster: Nowadays, yes.
21:55:34 <ehird> On that thing? Hell no.
21:55:41 <ehird> It isn't visible-area.
21:55:45 <AnMaster> ehird, I think my old syncmaster (RIP) used that
21:56:41 * Sgeo is starting to be creeped out
21:56:54 <Sgeo> Some person keeps knocking at the door. It happened yesterday, and twice today
21:57:06 <ehird> That would be a person.
21:57:07 <AnMaster> uh. didn't you answer the door?
21:57:12 <Sgeo> The car has been the same car for both times today. Don't remember yesterday
21:57:15 <ehird> TALK? TO PEOPLE? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
21:57:54 <AnMaster> ehird, for once I enjoy your sarcastic comments.
21:58:32 <ehird> Hahaha the guy who dropped the Boscom terminal board to destroy the rivets burned it at the request of one forum member
21:59:12 <ehird> >I've run out of ways to torture the Boscom.
21:59:12 <ehird> That's not very imaginative. However, you did run out of Boscom it seems.
22:00:31 <ehird> The guy has a shitload of keyboards anyway.
22:00:45 <ehird> And it's fun to see what well-made keyboards can withstand.
22:00:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I would be surprised if they are still manufactured
22:00:56 <ehird> They're manufactured by Unicomp.
22:01:08 <ehird> Doesn't matter, anyway, as there'll be a bunch in circulation.
22:01:15 <AnMaster> ehird, and it is a terminal keyboard?
22:01:43 <ehird> I wish Unicomp made a tenkeyless Endurapro :-(((((((((((((((((((((((
22:01:54 <ehird> AnMaster: think things like ancient corporate account systems
22:02:21 <AnMaster> ehird, at some point they will all be replaced. Sure it may take a while, but it will happen
22:02:34 <ehird> Yes, in hundreds of years.
22:02:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just about to say that "by 2100 I doubt any of them are still in use"
22:03:17 <ehird> Endurapro is http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html, which is basically a standard-layout board but with a smaller bezel than the almost-identical-to-Model M Customiser. It also has a nipple mouse (probably quite good, as they took over from Lexmark who took over from IBM). Tenkeyless is a keyboard without the number pad.
22:03:34 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:04:13 <ehird> Keyboards, nope, they stopped makin' em and Unicomp was founded and bought up their shit.
22:04:28 <ehird> Lexmark is just the spinoff of IBM's keyboard+printer division when IBM went "ok let's get rid of this shit".
22:04:31 <ehird> They made Model Ms for a while.
22:04:36 <ehird> (since 1991 or 1993 or something like that)
22:04:43 <ehird> Anyway, tenkeyless Endurapro + their nice black no-lettering keycaps + some greasing on the springs = Hey, a sleek, modern, low-profile buckling spring keyboard that doesn't clatter nearly as much as the old ones.
22:04:55 <AnMaster> ehird, I used to have a Lexmark printer years ago
22:05:00 <AnMaster> never got it to work under linux.
22:05:11 <AnMaster> the HP one that replaced it worked out of box
22:05:17 <ehird> But Unicomp's idea of a product with a different design is this puzzling item: http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/noname1.html
22:05:43 <ehird> They are... not the most innovative or progressive company.
22:06:33 <AnMaster> ehird, do they have that in a terminal variant?
22:06:41 <ehird> Maybe if you ask them!
22:07:02 <ehird> Ooh, you can get that Wildcats keyboard with PS/2 *or* AT connector.
22:07:13 <ehird> Here I was expecting the second item in the drop-down to be USB.
22:09:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I had the same reaction seconds before
22:09:37 <ehird> All the keyboards anyone would buy from them are available in USB, though.
22:09:47 <ehird> Navigating their site really pisses me off
22:10:02 <ehird> The menus change as you go around, and there's no link to /keyboards.html, the main page
22:12:44 <AnMaster> http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/linux101.html <-- heh....
22:13:15 <ehird> They list the SpaceSaver there?!
22:13:53 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you talking about?
22:14:41 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw why are some of the keys a different colour I wonder.
22:14:47 <AnMaster> never could find a good reason for it
22:14:59 <AnMaster> http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/pckeyboards_2075_1033946 for example
22:15:48 <AnMaster> "The SpaceSaver PS2 models can be programmed at the time of manufacture, the USB models are not programmable." <-- huh?
22:15:48 <ehird> Now, which to write first... My httpd, my web-thingy, or my document-writing thingy
22:16:02 <ehird> Web-thingy kinda depends on document-writing thiingy
22:16:13 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that up to the OS keymaps?
22:16:13 <ehird> AnMaster: also, to mark non-self printing keys
22:16:17 <ehird> in the top row it's just for aesthetics
22:16:29 <ehird> backspace is printing in a way, I guess
22:16:37 <ehird> ... but enter is too
22:16:42 <ehird> it's just to look good, really
22:17:05 <AnMaster> ehird, so are some of them on the numkeypad
22:17:59 <augur> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cats_with_fraudulent_diplomas
22:18:32 <ehird> I'd prefer to see [[List of cats with legitimate diplomas]]
22:21:08 * ehird looks around the various interwebnet shoppan' sites for a http://www.bluesnews.com/miscimages/tmmarble150.gif
22:21:36 <ehird> Everyone just has the wheel version, it seems
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22:22:03 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:22:15 <ehird> I like the little finger indents on the buttons.
22:22:23 <ehird> Why don't more pointing devices have them?
22:22:42 <ehird> Trackman Marble by Logitech (Toy)
22:22:43 <ehird> I find that categorisation very offensive!
22:23:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> Everyone just has the wheel version, it seems <-- you don't want a mouse wheel?
22:23:34 <ehird> I do! But I want a middle mouse button that isn't a wheel.
22:23:56 <AnMaster> ehird, clicking a scroll wheel isn't hard
22:24:03 <ehird> It's bad for your finger.
22:24:04 <ehird> Besides, in between the buttons isn't the most comfortable place for a wheel to go anyway.
22:24:08 <AnMaster> I do X11 pasting with a tilt-able scroll wheel all the time
22:24:24 <ehird> Your hands do, though.
22:24:36 <ehird> And even the Plan 9 people say that you must have three real buttons.
22:24:47 <ehird> Anyway, I rest my hand on all the buttons, so it's especially important.
22:24:59 <ehird> Just saying that it's widely accepted.
22:25:11 <AnMaster> ehird, I rest my hand so I don't rest it on the scrollwheel
22:25:14 <ehird> http://i.imgur.com/jPy3i.png, with the trackball lower down like in http://www.bluesnews.com/miscimages/tmmarble150.gif (I'm a terrible drawer) is my perfect trackball.
22:25:32 <AnMaster> ehird, so where do you want your scrollwheel then?
22:25:33 <ehird> Convenient place for the scroll wheel, and you ca n rest on it and still use the left and middle buttons — great for web browsing.
22:25:37 <ehird> Click the damn link.
22:25:59 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you want a cable in your foot?
22:26:49 <AnMaster> and go see a doctor about that swollen toe (and the missing ones. Maybe the big one cannibalised some of the small ones?)
22:27:16 <ehird> I ignored your bad attempt at being funny in the first line, but spending three lines on it is just embarrassing.
22:27:39 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no joke you can't drag out even more
22:28:00 <ehird> £17.99 + £2.08 shipping for a used-but-in-very-good-condition, seemingly wheel-less TrackMan Marble?
22:28:08 <ehird> Yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
22:28:37 <ehird> Anyway, I think I can use the trackball as a mouse wheel.
22:28:53 <ehird> Set up some trickery to let me hold the middle button and move the trackball to scroll, say.
22:30:41 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't that break pasting? Unless you manage to get it to paste on button release if trackball hasn't moved
22:30:47 <AnMaster> which would probably require patching X
22:31:17 <ehird> Maybe I'll have a modifier key on the keyboard do it.
22:31:35 <ehird> Anyway, for such a cheap price I can pick up a wheeled version if it doesn't work out,
22:32:34 <ehird> "Trackman marble mouse only. No box, manual or software."
22:32:42 <ehird> Oh gosh, what will I do without the huge box letting me know it supports Windows 95?
22:32:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
22:32:49 <ehird> Or the detailed manual on how to press your finger down to click?
22:32:56 <ehird> OR THE WINDOWS 9X-ONLY DRIVERS?!
22:32:59 <ehird> I can't possibly buy it.
22:36:28 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5579&d=1257695395
22:36:28 <ehird> Spot the abomination!
22:42:49 <AnMaster> ehird, the keys seems to not match each other?
22:43:00 <ehird> Close. Look carefully.
22:43:10 <AnMaster> different angles, different convexities on the surface
22:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird, check the windows key and the alt key on the left side for example
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22:43:50 <ehird> *WHY ARE YOU TYPING LIKE THIS*
22:44:03 <AnMaster> ehird, because I hit the wrong key :P
22:44:13 <AnMaster> it was supposed to be lower case
22:44:32 <AnMaster> ehird, apart from that I never seen a "help" key before
22:45:14 <ehird> Look at the alt key.
22:45:48 <ehird> Yep. Look at the other key very near it...
22:45:56 <ehird> Either one or two places away on each side.
22:46:16 <ehird> RUN! IT'S A HYBRID DELL AT101W AND APPLE EXTENDED KEYBOARD II CHIMERA!
22:46:19 <ehird> RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!
22:46:19 <AnMaster> ehird, as I said the key hight and such didn't match.
22:46:42 <ehird> The letters and main punctuation (but not \|) are from the AEKII too
22:46:46 <ehird> AnMaster: TERROR, PANIC
22:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird, would (due to the key height mentioned) be horrible to type on
22:48:06 <ehird> Not really, the camera accentuates it.
22:48:14 <ehird> And the main block of keys is all the same height.
22:48:54 <ehird> "Hey -- could use some of the wisdom of your xorg champs. I found this link on how to emulate the scroll wheel using the logitech marble trackball. I figure any trackball would work for this, but what I was wondering is whether or not I could emulate the scroll wheel by using the "Windows" key and the trackball -- that is to say, if I hold the Windows key down, could I then use the trackball to scroll?"
22:48:57 <ehird> LIKEMINDED PEOPLE <3
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22:57:07 <jix> i really love the apple keyboards
22:57:10 <jix> the new ones
22:57:17 <jix> unless they have even newer ones already
22:58:09 * ehird bashes jix with a buckling spring
22:58:15 <ehird> Begone, foul demon of the scissor switch!
22:58:26 <jix> yeah slim keyboards are not everyones favourite
22:58:48 * ehird picks up a Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2 and throws it at jix
22:58:52 <ehird> This minimalist enough for you?! Eh?!
22:59:00 * ehird throws a gigantic Model F terminal board for good measure
22:59:50 <AnMaster> <ehird> Begone, foul demon of the scissor switch! <-- isn't that what most laptops have?
23:00:05 <ehird> Yes, and Apple keyboards since ~2007
23:00:10 <ehird> Also, more like all laptops
23:00:26 <AnMaster> ehird, always wondered why laptops don't have just membrane ones
23:00:46 <ehird> scissor switch keyboards are much less thick
23:00:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: which
23:01:09 <ehird> no it's not, it has topre keyswitches and a well-designed layout
23:01:29 <ehird> of course the lite one is useless (rubber dome) but the professional is worth it for the keyswitches alone...
23:02:02 <AnMaster> ehird, are those really full sized keys?
23:02:30 <ehird> It's a perfectly usable keyboard
23:03:26 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, there are arguments both for and against numpad.
23:03:45 <ehird> AnMaster: f key is fn+number
23:03:56 <ehird> it's great because you can access everything from the home row
23:04:04 <ehird> AnMaster: There's a way to do more iirc
23:04:18 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: less keys = everything accessible from the home row, minimalist, and the mouse is closer
23:04:37 <ehird> mouse context-switching time is expensive; the width of a numberpad and middle-area is not to be sniffed at
23:04:41 <ehird> it makes a large differnce
23:04:44 <AnMaster> more keys = actually able to play nethack without going mad (I use numpad yes)
23:04:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: tell that to every user of the HHKB Pro 2
23:05:04 <ehird> I don't know anyone who's bought it and been dissatisfied
23:06:51 <ehird> pressing fn and a key to get pageup is faster than moving over to the pageup key anyway
23:09:34 <Sgeo> Pressing Fn-; and Fn-P to fly up and down in AW is annoying
23:10:00 <fizzie> Well, yes, if you go through the trouble of getting such a keyboard, I'm sure you won't let yourself be disappointed with it, even if it had a feature that'd randomly stick rusty nails through your fingers.
23:10:24 <ehird> fizzie: Dude, you should see some of the criticism the people on geekhack lob at expensive keyboards they bought and can't return.
23:10:47 <ehird> The ~$250 HHKB Pro 2 isn't even the most expensive keyboard fawned over by a long shot.
23:10:54 <ehird> It is one of the most popular full stop, though, regardless of price.
23:10:58 <fax> fizzie I have one of those, you get used to it after a while
23:11:13 <fizzie> fax: One of the rusty nail ones?
23:11:14 <AnMaster> <ehird> pressing fn and a key to get pageup is faster than moving over to the pageup key anyway <-- not really, it is moving about 2 cm from standard position to reach pgup
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23:11:30 <ehird> Chording is still very faast.
23:11:31 <AnMaster> pgup and insert should be swapped
23:11:44 <ehird> And making the decision to move 2 cm takes a non-negligible amount of time too.
23:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, sure. But annoying if you need to do a key combo with those
23:11:54 <ehird> Plus we're lumbering, slow beasts, except for our fingers. Which are really snappy.
23:12:54 <ehird> AnMaster: On the HHKB, that's (using normal key positions) Caps Lock + Windows + Rightmost bit of right shift key
23:12:57 <AnMaster> ehird, your mom is really snappy with her fingers though!
23:13:14 <fizzie> There's a lumbering, slow beast on your face! How have you not noticed that?!
23:13:20 <ehird> Caps Lock is actually control, alt key is next to an inexplicably big windows key which is next to the space bar (swap them, srsly)
23:13:24 <ehird> fn is next to right shift
23:13:33 <ehird> so that's actually a pretty comfortable key chord, really
23:13:35 <ehird> spread out and all
23:13:43 <AnMaster> ehird, " Rightmost bit of right shift key"?
23:13:48 <ehird> http://antiflash.org/notes/computers/happy_hacking_keyboard_pro_2/spacesaver_hhkbpro2_small.jpg
23:13:52 <ehird> Just like I said caps lock
23:13:57 <ehird> It's to the right of the right shift key
23:14:08 <ehird> I was saying it that way so you could orient yourself on a regular keyboard
23:14:14 <ehird> thus why I said windows when the key in that position is alt
23:14:19 <ehird> No, right shape for return
23:14:33 <ehird> The ISO layout is shit, and I say this as someone who used it for years and years then switched
23:14:41 <ehird> I've switched back to ISO for this shitty keyboard, and I fucking hate it
23:14:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I used both. Can't stand the US one
23:15:02 <AnMaster> hit the enter in the wrong place on it all the time. That is, where there is no enter
23:15:05 <ehird> Knowing you that probably means you used the US layout for 5 minutes after 50 years of using ISO 24/7
23:15:17 <ehird> You hit enter at the top?
23:15:20 <ehird> Dude, your pinky hates you.
23:15:24 <ehird> I mean reaaaaaaaally hates you.
23:15:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I no on the middle. Right between the two rows on US layout
23:16:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: rebind [] to () and put [] on shifted 9 and 0. () is way more common in both english text and lisp
23:16:11 <fax> bsmntbonbondood you use paredit?
23:16:12 <ehird> and the adjustment needed is very little
23:16:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not 50 years. and I used US layout for a few months. Sure I used the ISO layout for more. But still a few months is usually enough to get used to a new keyboard
23:16:44 <ehird> No it's not, not a whole new layout
23:17:15 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't have that keyboard for more. So couldn't do anything about it. So what do you think is enough? If 5 months isn't
23:17:32 <ehird> Maybe your brain is just broken and can't relearn things? Don't ask me.
23:17:56 <AnMaster> ehird, or maybe your "US layout is better" *isn't* an universal truth
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23:18:05 <AnMaster> maybe it is subjective? ever considered that?
23:18:08 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:18:35 <ehird> Hello, welcome to HUMAN COMMUNICATION, where people state opinions as fact because otherwise EVERY SINGLE THING they say would be prefixed by "In my opinion,".
23:18:59 <ehird> I wonder why I bothered to type that out, seeing as you appear to realise it for a few months and then promptly forget with a smarmy pseudo-sarcastic statement.
23:19:05 <AnMaster> ehird, even so "<ehird> Maybe your brain is just broken and can't relearn things? Don't ask me." seems to indicate it is something universal
23:19:08 <ehird> "I can't adjust to it from ISO" isn't an argument against the US layout, subjective or not, by the way.
23:19:19 <ehird> It's an argument against you not using the US layout, which is different.
23:19:24 <ehird> So you fail pretty much entirely.
23:19:41 <ehird> You called it the "wrong" shape for enter.
23:19:48 <ehird> That phrases it as an argument against the US layout itself.
23:20:26 <AnMaster> ehird, for me yes. I never said it was universal. While your "<ehird> Maybe your brain is just broken and can't relearn things? Don't ask me." seemed to indicate your opinion was somehow "better" than mine.
23:21:10 <ehird> I think you just hate me with a force so strong that your brain actually injects such things in between the lines of my messages.
23:23:30 -!- zzo38 has joined.
23:23:41 <zzo38> I wrote a spell in D&D game, is this good enough: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/other_stuff/Suppress_Lycanthropy.txt
23:27:09 <ehird> You asked that before.
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23:28:24 <ehird> http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4104&stc=1&d=1251471829
23:28:27 <ehird> More Boscom torturer
23:35:32 <Sgeo> Some MIDIs (unfortunately, each individual MIDI and other sound is zipped): http://objects.activeworlds.com/aw/sounds
23:37:30 <Sgeo> And some of the zips seem to be invalid
23:43:37 <Sgeo> The invalid zips seem to be ones with filenames less than 8 characters, not including the dot and extension
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23:58:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: because there's no esolang activity anymore
23:58:31 <ehird> we're all just sitting around waiting for feather