00:00:11 <oerjan> elliott: http://c-faq.com/aryptr/non0based.html
00:16:16 <elliott> !c extern void (*test)(int); test(3, 42);
00:16:26 <elliott> !c void (*test)(int); test(3, 42);
00:16:40 <elliott> Gregor: PLEASE MAKE THAT PRINT THE DIAGNOSTICS
00:18:05 <oerjan> um it has two arguments and you declare just one?
00:18:59 <oerjan> !c void (*test)(int); test(3);
00:19:01 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21422 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
00:19:28 <oerjan> that would appear to have something to do with it, then
00:19:50 <oerjan> !c void (*test)(); test(3, 42);
00:19:52 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21527 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
00:19:57 <elliott> <oerjan> um it has two arguments and you declare just one?
00:20:12 <elliott> i want something that is known to require one argument, but might require more
00:23:23 <oerjan> http://c-faq.com/varargs/index.html might help?
00:24:06 <elliott> that's for variadic functions
00:24:08 <elliott> I'm talking about function pointers
00:24:16 <elliott> !c void (*test)(int, ...); test(3, 42);
00:24:18 <EgoBot> ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: line 52: 21892 Segmentation fault /tmp/compiled.$$
00:24:20 <elliott> it might have different semantics
00:24:26 <elliott> (variadic functions can be implemented however, pretty much)
00:24:42 <oerjan> well it did compile...
00:24:59 <elliott> yes, but test(3, 42) could be the same as test(3, MAGIC)))42{{
00:25:04 <elliott> as in, AFAIK there's no guarantee that
00:25:13 <elliott> are called in "the same way" if one is variadic and the other is not
00:27:32 <oerjan> ok but doesn't that just mean that test must be a pointer that was declared in the same way?
00:29:08 <variable> Gregor: how goes the libc.so auction?
00:29:19 <Gregor> variable: It's barely started
00:29:55 <variable> elliott: I'm supposed to say that....
00:30:02 <elliott> oerjan: hey, McCarthy did it
00:30:57 <oerjan> well supposedly it has its uses
00:31:09 <elliott> oerjan: e.g. standard output handle
00:31:21 <elliott> oerjan: like a global stack
00:31:32 <elliott> (let ((*standard-output* ...)) (function-which-prints))
00:31:33 <oerjan> i recall someone worked out how they should interact with delimited continuations
00:31:55 <elliott> Common Lisp, Racket and many Schemes all have dynamic vars
00:32:06 <Sgeo> Factor also has dynamic vars!
00:32:09 <oerjan> well even haskell does
00:32:57 <elliott> oerjan: hm you mean the ?foo things
00:33:16 <elliott> oerjan: but lisp before 1.5 was always dynamic :)
00:33:32 <elliott> when this first came up, one of the developers responded that the behaviour must be a bug and they'll get fixing it quickly
00:33:44 <elliott> then they realised the scoping was broken :D
00:34:21 <oerjan> took them a while, i take
00:34:27 <elliott> oerjan: well, even 1.5 was dynamic
00:34:33 <elliott> but it had closures with FUNARG
00:34:40 <elliott> so you could define lexically-scoped functions
00:34:44 <elliott> lisp 1.5 was a mess btw :D
00:34:54 <elliott> "In a language with DynamicScoping, a DynamicClosure is a function which will be evaluated in the dynamic environment it was created in rather than the one it is called from."
00:35:46 <elliott> which also reminded me of the fun fact that lisp 1.5 toplevel was evalquote
00:35:52 <oerjan> the WikiLinks sort of gave it away
00:36:07 <elliott> oerjan: it could have been meatball!
00:36:16 <elliott> or all three other OldStyleWikis
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00:41:20 <Sgeo> OldStyleWikis that aren't c2 exist?
00:41:22 <oerjan> well it's reasonably ok at the time, i guess
00:41:39 <oklopol> elliott: i had a dream that you came back here some time last week
00:41:45 <elliott> oklopol: i'm just here to talk to oerjan :)
00:41:51 <elliott> because ##c failed at answering my question
00:41:55 <elliott> then oerjan fumbled in an attempt to answer
00:42:03 <elliott> ya, but oerjan knows nothing about c
00:42:06 <elliott> so why would i ask him that question
00:42:11 * oerjan subtly puts a noose around elliott's foot
00:42:30 <oklopol> i don't care why you're back, all i know is my dreams have come true
00:42:32 -!- Zuu has joined.
00:42:48 <oklopol> also i have a master's degree, yays for me
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00:43:17 <elliott> and HE'S borderline retarded
00:43:29 <elliott> also, i hate all fags. and all non-fags.
00:44:02 <oklopol> well these things take time when you're as slow as me
00:44:15 <Sgeo> I hate anyone who's ever had a wrong thought
00:44:46 <Sgeo> Incorrect, immoral, take your pic
00:45:57 * Sgeo would like to have an immortal thought
00:46:34 <variable> elliott: what is the question - curious?
00:47:01 <elliott> variable: <elliott> <elliott> If p is a pointer, is p[-1] defined equivalent to *(p-1)? I know array[-1] is undefined.
00:47:16 <elliott> I know that array[n] is only defined for 0 <= n < array length
00:47:22 <elliott> but this is because (array+n) is
00:47:30 <elliott> (maybe <= on the last one there)
00:47:39 <variable> elliott: I'd guess yes - but I don't have a copy of the standard to check
00:48:06 <elliott> unfortunately my situation is not adequately described by that question unlike what i first thought :)
00:48:51 <variable> <elliott> (maybe <= on the last one there) --> no
00:49:13 <elliott> so "if (array_pointer < array + array_size)" is invalid/UB :D
00:49:28 <elliott> you need "if (array_pointer <= array + (array_size - 1))"
00:53:46 <elliott> i hate it when gcc builds, because it's a precursor to having to use gcc
00:58:14 <oerjan> again, that's for (array+n)
01:02:20 <variable> elliott: heh - I prefer using clang - but I'm doing some benchmarking now
01:03:02 <elliott> variable: unfortunately clang is C++ :)
01:03:58 <variable> elliott: I have no problems with C++
01:04:10 <elliott> variable: From a language POV or a programs-use-it POV?
01:04:15 <elliott> And no, gcc as of 4.6.0 does not have any C++ yet.
01:04:27 <elliott> Or at least as of 4.5.2, I haven't checked 4.6.0 specifically.
01:04:43 <variable> elliott: I do know that gcc core@ approved the use of C++ in the program though
01:04:49 <elliott> Yes, but it hasn't happened yet.
01:05:07 <elliott> variable: From a language POV, C++ is absolutely insane and would be best forgotten. From a programs-use-it POV, some alternative libcs do not support it.
01:05:16 <variable> to answer the first question: I would not be against using g++ to get "c with classes" or related types of functionality. To be honest: I'd love to see people use "C++ subset" instead of C
01:05:25 <elliott> musl is looking into working with LLVM's libc++ though.
01:05:37 <elliott> variable: have you ever read the C++ FQA?
01:05:43 <elliott> The idea of a C plus a class is not inherently bad.
01:05:53 <elliott> But the subset of C++ that is just (not) C plus a class is bad.
01:06:00 <variable> C as a language is just too bloated, but many of the ideas are decent
01:06:00 <variable> And yes I've read the C++ FAQ, the C++ Standard, and the TRs for C++
01:06:05 <elliott> ((not) C because C++ is NOT compatible with C99.)
01:06:44 <variable> elliott: oh http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/ --> a while ago
01:07:17 <elliott> It's a good summary of why even the basic features of C++ are broken.
01:07:21 <variable> elliott: also, I know C99 and C++ are not compatible (neither way C89)
01:07:48 <elliott> Anyway, I would prefer people not use C++ or C at all, but if I had to choose I'd choose C.
01:08:16 <elliott> You can do "objects" in C (come on, you have structs and functions), and encapsulation of those objects. (Inheritance is a pain, but inheritance is evil anyway.)
01:08:31 <elliott> C is not a convenient language, but C is not at a convenient level.
01:08:51 <variable> elliott: yes - but it exposes the implementation of those objects and encapsulation; you could just use the already done version of those with C++
01:08:52 <elliott> C++-as-C-with-classes removes C's advantage, i.e. being low-level, and adds a bad version of objects on top.
01:09:03 <elliott> C++ in full is plain insane.
01:09:08 <variable> elliott: I would (and generally do) choose C with classes (in C++) when I write code that needs the low-level code.
01:09:17 <elliott> variable: Exposes the implementation of encapsulation?
01:09:22 <elliott> Please, try and violate the encapsulation of FILE.
01:09:38 <elliott> Protip: you can't because it's "typedef struct ... FILE;"
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01:09:41 <variable> elliott: what I meant by that is that: there is no reason to implement that in C when you have a C++
01:09:42 <Sgeo> C++ exposes implementation unless you take pains to tell it not to
01:09:48 <elliott> variable: But you do NOT have that in C.
01:09:54 <elliott> I am not saying - implement an object system in C.
01:10:00 <elliott> I am saying C already has the tools to solve the problems.
01:10:02 <variable> elliott: ah - I thought you were
01:10:17 <variable> elliott: tbh: I'd love to design my own low level C like language
01:10:33 <variable> this is starting to get into religious wars
01:10:40 <Sgeo> My own.. personal.. C like language...
01:10:42 <elliott> i.e., 90% of the time in a design a struct (almost certainly containing other structs) and some functions serves perfectly well.
01:10:57 <elliott> The other 10% of the time you can still work something out (see: the fact that large systems are written in C).
01:11:14 <elliott> C isn't a language without flaws, in fact it sucks quite fatally. But I'd still rather people use it than C++...
01:11:30 * variable refuses to continue further - I'm aware of issues and I don't think this conversation will do much
01:11:47 <elliott> I'm not arguing with you, however.
01:12:17 <variable> elliott: sorry - I just had a *really* bad day
01:13:43 <zzo38> You can also use structures that have function pointers
01:14:03 <elliott> yeah, but that is only useful when there is a need
01:14:27 <elliott> variable: honestly though, it's a bit of a pointless argument in the first place as I'd rather nobody coded in C at all :)
01:14:55 <variable> elliott: well - for über low level things I don't mind C (its basically assembler macros) but in general I agree with you
01:15:08 <elliott> well, I wish C semantics were as simple as assembler macros :)
01:15:16 <variable> everyone has their anti-language :-)
01:15:17 <zzo38> Whatever thing you can do by object oriented, you can do some things without object oriented, by using structures, unions, function pointers, preprocessor macros, and so on.
01:15:34 <elliott> IMO everything (including drivers) should be in trusted code. I want to say "managed" code, but hate to imply a VM.
01:15:46 <variable> zzo38: you can do anything you can do in python in Assembly; question is is it worth it
01:16:00 <zzo38> elliott: Would it be, but one assembler is only for one computer. C is for the same program all computer.
01:16:22 <Sgeo> Clojure's argument is that you don't need all of the benefits of objects at once. You should be able to pick and choose.
01:16:27 <variable> elliott: I would be interested in seeing some sandbox that only lets people do input & output and nothing else.
01:16:44 <variable> elliott: and the rest could be formally verified code with a small footprint
01:16:47 <elliott> variable: Err, everything is input and output.
01:17:04 <zzo38> elliott: Because, that is why I program in C. The purpose of C is so that you can write one program on other computers too.
01:17:05 <elliott> variable: I'm talking e.g. a system based on capabilities
01:17:20 <elliott> variable: such that it would be possible to run all code in ring 0 :)
01:17:28 <elliott> (eliminating the (large) overhead of syscalls)
01:17:33 <elliott> (uh, and the concept of syscalls...)
01:17:46 <elliott> zzo38: You can do that in any language that isn't assembly.
01:18:18 <variable> elliott: zzo38: completely unrelated, I asked this in here a while ago but only Gregor anwered
01:18:41 <Sgeo> Unless it's a self-hosted compiler, the non-self-hosted version from the past lost to time, and not ported to the target architecture
01:18:43 <variable> Have you ever written a feature complete, non-trivial, bug-free, program that other people use?
01:19:14 <elliott> variable: Answering that question required omniscience.
01:19:36 <elliott> Which is not feature complete, trivial, has bugs, and nobody uses it! ;D
01:19:38 <zzo38> variable: I don't know. I did write some programs for specific customers.
01:19:46 <variable> elliott: by bug-free I mean: no known bugs with reasonable testing
01:19:48 <Sgeo> I think the last time I wrote a non-trivial program on my own was PSOX. Or maybe Evolution. But Evolution wasn't on my own. And PSOX, while intended to be used by others... what elliott said
01:19:55 <Sgeo> elliott, trivial?
01:20:03 <Sgeo> I take offense to that!
01:20:04 <elliott> variable: That's VERY hard to define.
01:20:23 <elliott> For instance, I don't think the current mcmap revision, which I've contributed a non-trivial amount of code to, has any KNOWN bugs, but I am almost certain it contains bugs.
01:20:24 <variable> elliott: define it as you will, I'm sure you get the intent of the question
01:20:28 <Sgeo> The last committed version of PSOX has a syntax error. I don't know why.
01:20:36 <elliott> "Feature complete" is basically impossible to define too, every program can have more features :P
01:21:03 <variable> elliott: by "feature complete" I mean: that which you have no interest in adding more features too and/or has accomplished its states goals
01:21:16 <variable> again: I'm sure you get the intent of the question
01:21:34 <elliott> I presume the intent is to demonstrate that basically no such programs exist.
01:21:43 <elliott> Apart from those that are old and used extensively in industry.
01:21:49 <variable> zzo38: I could answer yes to two programs I've written. Other than thay they are either not bug-free or not feature complete
01:21:56 <elliott> And whose needs never change.
01:22:20 <zzo38> TeXnicard might be good, if, later I could also make it so that external programs are not required anymore. But it is not quite complete I am sure it has bugs too probably
01:22:22 <variable> elliott: the intent of my question is something along the lines of "have you ever finished or completed a program?"
01:22:28 <zzo38> variable: Which two programs?
01:22:32 <elliott> variable: You don't finish programs.
01:22:46 <elliott> variable: A finished program is a program that nobody uses any more.
01:22:57 <variable> zzo38: one was a program to manage users and such for Google Apps
01:23:20 <Sgeo> elliott, so PSOX is finished!
01:23:32 <elliott> I very much doubt that program has no bugs.
01:23:44 <elliott> variable: Anyway, I wrote an implementation of cat once or twice.
01:23:49 <elliott> That is feature-complete, bug-free.
01:24:44 <zzo38> Some of my programs, it even says so, in the program, that it can certainly be improved.
01:25:05 <variable> elliott: it was written for a contract with specific features in mind and it completed all those tasks without any bugs (after a year of testing)
01:25:47 <variable> elliott: python. I do NOT count language implementation bugs as relevant here (just as I don't count faulty hardware as bugs)
01:25:53 <elliott> variable: The program has bugs.
01:26:38 <Sgeo> elliott, variable could secretly be God.
01:26:42 <elliott> Well, for one Python allows any value to be None, which is obviously extremely dangerous
01:27:05 <elliott> I would be very surprised if it didn't have bugs even going by that alone.
01:27:06 <variable> elliott: I've got to run right now.
01:27:22 <variable> elliott: actually: important phone call
01:29:26 <zzo38> I think it is very simple making telephone, just the switch, microphone, speaker. Now you can call anyone, receive telephone call, and even call waiting can work (however, I do not like to subscribe to call waiting).
01:29:38 <elliott> Who cares how simple it is to make?
01:30:19 <zzo38> Did you make a telephone like that?
01:30:56 <zzo38> And if you don't like it, you can disconnect it.
01:31:27 <elliott> (1) No. I don't want to. (2) I already know I wouldn't like it, so why bother?
01:31:39 <Gregor> Everyone who has not yet contributed to the libc.so fund: There is still time! As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are highly advised to consider it!
01:31:56 <zzo38> What is a Evisceration Chamber?
01:32:15 <elliott> zzo38: A chamber where you will be eviscerated.
01:32:15 <Gregor> Exactly what it sounds like.
01:32:58 <zzo38> I do not think I can send the money anyways. Even if I did want to use that service. And I do not need that service.
01:33:43 <zzo38> elliott: To where?
01:34:12 <zzo38> Sorry, I don't live there.
01:34:18 <elliott> That doesn't mean you can't send money there.
01:34:28 <Gregor> This is quite the conversation.
01:34:38 <Sgeo> zzo38 would need to make his own money transfer service first.
01:35:02 <zzo38> I don't even know how much money it costs.
01:36:08 <elliott> zzo38: It does not cost any money, you just give him some amount to use to buy libc.so.
01:36:12 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:36:13 <elliott> It can be as much as you can afford.
01:36:38 <zzo38> How can I decide what amount if I don't know how much it costs?
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01:36:51 <Sgeo> zzo38, Gregor doesn't know. It's an auction
01:37:13 <Gregor> You don't need to donate much to avoid the Evisceration Chamber.
01:37:35 <elliott> zzo38: Just decide to give as much as you think Gregor deserves to help him buy libc.so in the auction.
01:37:42 <elliott> So this could be 1 cent or it could be more money if you want.
01:39:17 <Gregor> ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Everyone who has not yet contributed to the libc.so fund: There is still time! As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are highly advised to
01:39:48 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: As those who do not contribute will be required to enter the Evisceration Chamber within 48 hours of the end of the auction, those who have not yet donated are.
01:39:57 <oerjan> faillol, the new homeopathic drug that is all the rage
01:41:30 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: Those who don't contribute will be forced into Evisceration Chamber. If you haven't donated, you are highly advised to consider it!.
01:43:14 <elliott> oerjan: more like HOMOSEXUAL
01:43:53 <zzo38> Is it the possible to pay someone for a card, send it to someone in any way (including morse code or telephone), and then they can withdraw it on the other side in the same way?
01:45:12 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
01:45:48 <zzo38> (Adding to my question) That is, without any accounts needed for anything?
01:46:30 <oerjan> "international money order" rings a bell
01:46:56 <elliott> zzo38: Is this how you plan to pay Gregor?
01:47:55 <zzo38> elliott: I just mean in general. I might not pay Gregor.
01:48:04 <elliott> zzo38: But you will be eviscerated!
01:49:58 <zzo38> I don't believe that. If the libc.so service interests me I will make such a payment. But right now it doesn't.
01:50:40 <elliott> Gregor: Perhaps we should have a pre-emptive funeral for zzo38.
01:51:09 <zzo38> I need to funeral for if I am dead. The funeral will cost too much.
01:51:24 <zzo38> I do not want anyone to make funeral for when I am dead, please.
01:51:56 <elliott> zzo38: Our funerals cost nothing.
01:52:20 <Gregor> (They might involve evisceration)
01:53:23 <zzo38> I still want no funeral for me.
01:53:59 <elliott> zzo38: You have no choice.
01:54:04 <elliott> Evisceratory funerals are mandatory.
01:54:36 <Sgeo> Happiness is mandatory. So an evisceratory funeral must be happy!
01:54:47 <Sgeo> Celebrate the evisceration of zzo38!
01:55:49 <Gregor> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
01:56:48 <zzo38> Too bad, I made sure the auction cannot end.
01:57:21 <zzo38> It is not permitted for you to know.
01:57:54 <zzo38> It does not matter if you demand, it is still not permitted.
01:59:08 <oerjan> Gregor: isn't it more like fluidity, really?
01:59:30 <Gregor> oerjan: It's a quote from some random esotericist that came in here :P
01:59:35 <Gregor> I'm trying to establish it as our creed.
02:00:13 <oerjan> elliott: you are not cleared for this information. please report for evisceration.
02:00:35 <Gregor> (And/or donation to the libc.so fund)
02:02:25 <elliott> Gregor: Relevant: I updated the main page.
02:02:41 -!- Gregor has set topic: ESOTERIC TOPICS IN COMPUTING AND PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES. WE HAVE THEM. | Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D , http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | Gregor's libc.so fund: Those who don't contribute will be forced into the Evisceration Chamber. If you haven't donated, you are highly advised to consider it!.
02:02:55 <Gregor> elliott: YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
02:03:06 <elliott> Enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity. Have a nice day!
02:11:21 <zzo38> I have one idea for electronic payment which I do not know if anything like this implemented. You go to the bank and pay them any amount of cash (no bank account is needed), and then will give you a card containing a SSH public key. You can use this to issue three commands "inquiry", "split", or "convert"; or you can go to a different bank and give then the card and they will give you your money back (no accounts needed, no questions needed).
02:12:00 <elliott> Don't you mean a private key?
02:13:39 <zzo38> I might have made a mistake. But I think in public/private key cryptograpy, some schemes just have two keys, and either one can be used for access of the other.
02:13:59 <elliott> Usually private keys are a lot bigger.
02:15:18 <zzo38> Yes, a private key is probably what is needed. I think I made a mistake.
02:16:10 <zzo38> However, it does not necessarily have to be a public/private key system. Something else might also work if it is secure.
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03:23:09 <oerjan> so did everyone else get split from nearly everyone else?
03:25:06 <oerjan> oh there's a notice about a hub in EU missing
03:26:03 <oerjan> i guess that could do it
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03:47:36 <elliott> "C is a subset of C++" ;; wow, people actually say this.
03:48:32 <oerjan> C is a subset, that's good enough for me
03:48:55 <elliott> "the great John Dvorak" giving up reading this post now
03:49:19 <oerjan> at least the G isn't capitalized
04:02:23 <elliott> hey oerjan i have a nice game for you to play
04:02:23 <elliott> http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
04:08:53 <elliott> oerjan how well did you do ;D
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04:27:56 * oerjan was taking a walk, actually
04:31:00 <oerjan> in our lovely march spring snow
04:39:01 <oerjan> ok i managed to activate the windows slow keys dialog, i take this as my clue to give up
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07:23:44 <elliott> 04:32:04: <oerjan> wtf is this shit
07:23:45 <elliott> 04:39:01: <oerjan> ok i managed to activate the windows slow keys dialog, i take this as my clue to give up
07:28:43 <elliott> oerjan: i presume you've tried the classic QWOP then
07:29:20 <oerjan> i cannot recall. i am not much of a player of games, other than puzzle games
07:29:33 <elliott> http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html it's not a game, it's a torture program
07:30:22 <oerjan> fine, then i don't have to look at it
07:30:46 <elliott> who said the torture was optional
07:31:18 <elliott> hey it even has a wp article :D
07:32:30 <fizzie> In QWOP I did run (...well, "run") the hundred metres, but in GIRP I barely managed two metres.
07:34:28 <fizzie> Proof: http://zem.fi/~fis/runner.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner2.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner3.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner4.png http://zem.fi/~fis/runner5.png
07:35:26 <elliott> fizzie: That's the Cheating Method.
07:35:43 <elliott> Observe correct method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJeJtK7Q2kk
07:36:05 <elliott> I've got to 10 m in GIRRRRRP
07:38:11 <elliott> fizzie: With GIRP the trick is to press shift at clever times.
07:39:12 <oerjan> which incidentally is precisely how you activate slow keys in windows. approximately.
07:39:55 <elliott> maybe that's the norwegian name
07:40:01 <oerjan> possibly, i'm backtranslating here
07:40:39 <oerjan> except i think there are two different settings one might accidentally trigger this way
07:40:55 <oerjan> one by holding a key too long, the other by pushing it too many times
07:41:06 <oerjan> and i'm not quite sure which one i did
07:41:30 <elliott> well QWOP has no use of the shift key at all!
07:42:26 <oerjan> i'm really not very fond of games that depend on dexterity and timing. especially since i developed rsi-like symptoms.
07:44:21 <oerjan> actually, that + unpredictable feedback
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07:52:21 <elliott> oerjan: you realise the game is not meant to be _enjoyable_ :D
07:52:54 <oerjan> curiously, i'm not very fond of games that are not enjoyable, either
07:53:32 <oerjan> well the ai is pretty good
07:53:50 <elliott> it only has one personality
07:58:01 <oerjan> the unbearable lightness of lead
07:58:28 <elliott> the chocolate of merchantability
07:58:40 <elliott> the pindrop of castrated bongos
07:58:56 <oerjan> i think you slipped out of the theme there
07:59:11 <elliott> your mom slipped out of the theme there.
07:59:37 <oerjan> you proportional fiend!
07:59:51 <elliott> oerjan: only in proportion!! HAHAHAHAHA
08:18:37 <elliott> oerjan: where is : the moon?
08:19:07 <oerjan> ...still insane, i take
08:19:46 <elliott> you would....... withhold the moon
08:23:21 <elliott> oerjan: the moon ruse was a...... DISTACTION
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08:29:12 <Vorpal> elliott, I love df. I just updated it and now it has bee keeping as well. :D
08:29:59 <Vorpal> elliott, however bee keeping requires an industry of ceramics, for making honey pots
08:30:18 <Vorpal> elliott, that means a lot of attention to various types of glazing of the jugs in true df spirit!
08:30:40 <elliott> at last Vorpal finds a game as tedious as he is!
08:31:21 <Vorpal> elliott, of course the clay industry is also complex. I'm reading up on that atm
08:32:45 <Vorpal> elliott, quoting the release notes for the update that introduced this:
08:32:48 <Vorpal> "I didn't get very far into glazing, but you can ash glaze and tin glaze (with cassiterite). Earthenware jugs need to be glazed to hold liquids. Stoneware and porcelain jugs don't require glaze but can be glazed."
08:33:02 <Vorpal> that is already more detail than what most games would include
08:33:08 <elliott> shouldn't this be in -minecraft where it's off-topic
08:33:21 <Vorpal> arguably it is just as off topic here
08:34:19 <Vorpal> elliott, but seriously you have to admire the attention to detail put into df.
08:34:19 <elliott> 18:59:28: <ehird> GNU bash, version 2.05b.0(1)-release (powerpc-apple-darwin8.0)
08:34:19 <elliott> 18:59:28: <ehird> Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
08:34:19 <elliott> when the heck did i use this ...
08:34:35 <elliott> oh maybe that was 10.4's bash and it just said powerpc
08:34:40 <elliott> Vorpal: yeah, wouldn't play it though :P
08:35:19 <Vorpal> elliott, sure the learning curve is not so much a curve as a non-derivable discontinuity in the graph but once you get past that, it is awesome
08:37:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm using the site finder atm to find a nice place to embark on a new world to test out this new bee keeping stuff
08:37:36 <elliott> shut up, trying to remember the name of that thing so i can respond
08:37:42 <Vorpal> elliott, of what thing?
08:37:57 <Vorpal> describe it or something
08:39:07 <Vorpal> could be math, could be programming.
08:39:17 <elliott> and it ends up looking all _|_
08:39:26 <Vorpal> not sure about spelling
08:39:31 <elliott> that is named after a person
08:40:10 <elliott> where a function just totally goes up for one instant
08:40:12 <elliott> 'cuz it doesn't even give a shit.
08:40:27 <Vorpal> elliott, like the plot of tan(x) does?
08:40:41 <elliott> used in some field of things.
08:40:54 <elliott> there was an abstruse goose comic that referenced it once! ill find that :D
08:41:16 <Vorpal> goose comic, never heard of that one
08:41:35 <Vorpal> oh the abstruse is part of the name heh
08:41:46 <elliott> it's like xkcd but worse but better
08:42:31 <Vorpal> elliott, the front page comic... Either they are several or there doesn't seem to be much connection between the topics in it.
08:42:44 <Vorpal> aha, got to the end. Well that explains it
08:47:16 <elliott> we could just wait for oerjan to tell us
08:47:21 <elliott> doubt oklopol would know, he's stupid
08:48:12 <Vorpal> is he? I didn't know that
08:49:00 <elliott> not waiting for him to come and act offended
08:50:49 <elliott> Vorpal: please, enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidarity this fine tuesday :)
08:52:21 <Vorpal> elliott, sounds interesting. What does it do?
08:52:32 <elliott> Vorpal: confines you to solid forms, one presumes
08:52:48 <elliott> or maybe the MATRIX is solid.
08:52:55 <elliott> and you're just confined in a nondescript manner.
08:53:00 <elliott> who knows? only its original utterer.
08:53:32 <Vorpal> elliott, weren't you the original utterer? Or did you quote someone?
08:53:54 <Vorpal> or perhaps paraphrase someone
08:53:57 <elliott> It's the new Esoteric Motto, provoked by me, uttered by some insane esoterica-seeker, and popularised by Gregor.
08:54:12 <elliott> It tells me that I should mock such people more often.
08:54:35 <Vorpal> so someone who came here and had no clue what the channel was about?
08:55:07 <elliott> Well, actually we did a stupid magick skit :P
08:55:11 <elliott> I DON'T THINK THEY WERE FOOLED
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11:35:09 <Vorpal> argh the df wiki seems down
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14:05:45 <augur> i think Pure might be very similar to my intentions for antigravity when i was seriously poking around with it
14:06:17 <augur> oh, no, Pure is not, ok.
14:09:31 <Gregor> augur: Is this you wanting to donate to the libc.so fund? :P
14:09:52 <augur> this is me wanting to talk about generative music
14:10:04 <augur> i mean, i'll donate well wishings to the fund
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14:19:10 <Gregor> augur: Well now I don't know if I want to *huff*
14:21:08 <Gregor> I would talk about generative music ...
14:21:18 <Gregor> But since you'll just be forced into the Evisceration Chamber anyway, what difference does it make?
14:21:39 <augur> do you know of any good papers on the topic?
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14:39:07 <Gregor> I've never read any paper on the subject, because I've never heard generated music that isn't abysmally bad.
14:39:46 <augur> im just looking for frameworks, really
14:41:05 <Gregor> Well, then enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity.
14:41:34 <augur> i like being solid
14:41:38 <augur> i dont want to be goo
14:42:02 <Gregor> elliott: These poor, poor mundanes locked in their matrices.
14:42:41 <Gregor> BTW my log format is prettier than it was before :)
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15:01:45 <Gregor> http://codu.org/logs/log.html?c=_esoteric&d=2011-03-29#073046elliott <-- check out this magic!
15:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!
15:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, do you have, like, a fetish for huge columns of blank space?
15:03:52 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Do you have, like, a fetish for having such a ridiculously long name that I have to overallocate?
15:04:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________.
15:04:42 <Gregor> So you just have a fetish for being a complaining bitch.
15:05:24 <ais523_> the blank space sort-of annoyed me as well, although it's the fault of people with long nicks rather than of the page
15:05:27 <Gregor> Now quit thine bitching :P
15:05:38 <ais523_> juiced dealt with the issue by clipping long names and padding short ones
15:05:48 <Gregor> Why do people always think I'm /upset/ when I act like a jerk? I'm just a jerk.
15:08:30 <Gregor> Anyway you're supposed to be amazed by my awesome highlighting and permalinking by-line.
15:09:11 <ais523_> is the highlighting JS-based?
15:09:18 <Gregor> The whole page is JS-based.
15:09:22 <Gregor> The formatting is JS-based.
15:09:41 <ais523_> hmm, I normally have JS off
15:09:58 <Gregor> <noscript>Sorry, but pretty-printed logs and stalker mode require JavaScript. Please use the text logs.</noscript>
15:10:03 <ais523_> but I don't really mind if it still degrades gracefully anyway
15:10:20 <ais523_> stalker mode needing JS makes sense
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15:10:30 <Gregor> I suppose I could make it degrade "gracefully" by forwarding you to the text version :P
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15:34:48 <Gregor> There, if you don't have JS then it degrades to text. All those who don't have JS: Welcome to 2011, we are pleased to see that your long-term cryogenic sleep was successful. Please enjoy your stay.
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15:42:20 <PH______________> Gregor, I once had to wrangle with someone who said that not having *CSS* degrade gracefully was EVIL.
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15:42:42 <Gregor> Ironically, this probably does degrade gracefully if you have JS but no CSS :P
15:44:08 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: what if you want to quickly look something up in w3m while programming?
15:44:12 <ais523_> (I actually do that sometimes)
15:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, it wasn't even that graceless. You just got some random letters and numbers in place of some random characters.
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16:03:07 <Vorpal> <Gregor> There, if you don't have JS then it degrades to text. All those who don't have JS: Welcome to 2011, we are pleased to see that your long-term cryogenic sleep was successful. Please enjoy your stay. <-- the issue with js is that a lot of sites use it in a way that doubles their loading time, even if they don't use js for the actual loading (in other words, those that still work and don't become
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16:04:41 <Vorpal> at least that is my experience using firefox. Of course some of that can probably be blamed on firefox too, but I have noticed the same pattern even in browsers I use less often.
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16:08:40 <Gregor> There, it even works in w3m now.
16:08:44 <Gregor> The problem with disabling JS is that this is the year 2011.
16:08:52 <Gregor> The web is no longer just a text medium, it is a platform.
16:09:00 <Ilari> APNIC down 0.09: 64k to Taiwan, 16k to Vietnam, 2x128k+20x64k+1k to China, 256 to Australia, 256 to India, 256 to Sigapore, 1k to Samoa.
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16:13:04 <Ilari> Estimate for depletion stays at Friday April 15th.
16:14:05 <Ilari> 2.118 blocks this calender month.
16:16:34 <Ilari> Even half that would be historically quite rare (IIRC, >1 block per month has been exeeded 4 times before this month, 2 being this year)
16:18:00 <Ilari> Logaritmic space: /7.588.
16:21:28 <Ilari> Last 30 days: 2.660 blocks. Wow, just wow.
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16:40:49 <Vorpal> <Gregor> There, it even works in w3m now. <-- what about lynx?
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17:07:02 <FireFly> swatting is unnecessary, I promise
17:07:38 <FireFly> Because your line lacks a question mark
17:08:51 * oerjan swats FireFly for breaking the chain -----###
17:09:13 <sebbu> oerjan, i'm in a lot of places
17:09:56 <oerjan> sebbu: um but surely only on one freenode server? i was referring to the weird netsplit that was just happening then
17:10:42 <oerjan> while hopping from server to server, it looked like every server was split from every other.
17:11:03 <oerjan> (this included the logbots)
17:11:23 <sebbu> yes, only one freenode server
17:12:04 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: quite possibly.
17:12:16 <sebbu> i'm connected to that server since almost 2 day
17:12:26 <sebbu> (since my last disconnection)
17:13:04 <oerjan> sebbu: there was a global notice afterwards that a big hub in the EU had disappeared.
17:14:45 <sebbu> yeah, i see just pratchett & anthony
17:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm assuming something's rotten in the state of Freenode?
17:29:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it may even have been in the vicinity of denmark
17:35:56 <oerjan> <elliott> we could just wait for oerjan to tell us
17:36:03 <oerjan> jump discontinuity perhaps?
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17:37:36 <oerjan> 08:39:29: <elliott> it has some fancy name
17:37:36 <oerjan> 08:39:31: <elliott> that is named after a person
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17:39:40 <oerjan> oh hm that's not actually a "real" function. there's a plain delta function which is, though.
17:40:52 <[DaTa]> Testing mobile irc app
17:41:34 <[DaTa]> Didn't want to interrupt sorry
17:41:54 <oerjan> well no one but me were talking at the moment anyway
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17:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> oh hm that's not actually a "real" function. there's a plain delta function which is, though. ← define "real"?
17:53:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function explains it
17:53:51 <lambdabot> cpressey: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
17:54:17 <oerjan> "real" = the usual set of pairs kind
17:54:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way we use lambdabot as an impromptu MemoServ.
17:55:12 <oerjan> no. the dirac delta is supposed to be zero everywhere except at zero, and still have integral one. this is impossible for a real function.
17:56:59 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: obviously.
17:57:28 <oerjan> also, yes the cantor set is uncountable, same cardinality as the real numbers or the interval [0,1].
17:57:39 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: in the hollands
17:57:53 <yorick> Phantom_Hoover: no NOT DENMARK
17:58:34 <oerjan> in a sense the only difference is that in the cantor set you don't identify .01111.... with .10000.... etc. but the number of such cases _are_ countable and therefore don't affect the total cardinality.
17:59:08 <Phantom_Hoover> What she does is closest, perhaps, to mathematics, but only in the loosest sense.
17:59:21 <oerjan> (when thinking of the cantor set in binary. i guess in the usual "remove center" version s/1/2/ and use trinary.)
17:59:44 <cpressey> I think I'm insulted on behalf of mathematics.
18:00:03 <cpressey> What she does is more akin to accounting.
18:00:49 <cpressey> Well, except accounting has a purpose.
18:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Which, unlike everything else zzo does, actually sounds interesting.
18:01:01 <cpressey> Oh man. I was not aware of this
18:01:14 * cpressey tries to imagine zzo38's accounting methods
18:01:22 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way we use lambdabot as an impromptu MemoServ. <-- recently when someone tried to send me a MemoServ memo i nearly missed it because its unobtrusive notice got lost in the server status messages.
18:05:07 <cpressey> So, I have this vague recollection that I'm wondering if it's an hallucination on my part. Wasn't there once a programming language called "Fish", or "Fish Programming Language", which had an article somewhere (on Wikipedia I think) -- it involved a big picture of a fish, and each scale on the fish had a number(?) and colour(?) and you programmed it by changing these?
18:05:29 <oerjan> not to be confused with deadfish, i assume
18:06:10 <cpressey> and definitely not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISh_%28programming_language%29
18:07:29 <cpressey> http://www.chemistrydaily.com/chemistry/FiPL
18:08:21 <cpressey> and not on esolangs.org anywhere that i can see
18:08:28 <cpressey> and official site is down (of course)
18:08:28 <fizzie> That sounds familiar, with the colored scales thing.
18:08:59 <oerjan> this all sounds somewhat fishy
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18:10:17 <fizzie> "Fish" is a not very greppable term.
18:10:25 <fizzie> [2007-01-14 01:28:51] < oerjan> A very fishy language.
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18:10:43 <fizzie> (That was re: homespring.)
18:11:57 <cpressey> It's not exactly an uncommon theme here, is it?
18:12:08 <fizzie> No, we're all quite fishy.
18:12:27 <fizzie> Looking for both fish and scale just gives me fungot "this evening's debate is certainly the case for amendments nos 3 and 4, so that we can all see the work we do with small-scale fishermen."
18:12:27 <fungot> fizzie: i don't do anything to cause trouble with it. i might even be on fnord
18:13:55 <cpressey> Well, FiPL was definitely what I was thinking of; just surprised it never got an article on esolangs.org
18:15:15 <Gregor> OK, now EVERY feature degrades gracefully.
18:15:19 <Gregor> No more complaining, nonJSers.
18:15:21 <Gregor> NO MORE COMPLAINING EVER.
18:15:50 -!- cpressey has changed nick to nonJSer.
18:16:07 <Gregor> And yes, it even works in lynx.
18:16:19 <fizzie> Oh, the *day* is the HTML link.
18:16:22 <Gregor> Although in lynx it provides literally zero benefit over just using the text :P
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18:17:16 <Gregor> Oh dear, now you're really causing problems.
18:17:24 <Gregor> Vorpal: Have a fit plz
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18:23:20 <fizzie> What does the scripting do, exactly? It seems to be possible to highlight a particular line, but that's all I've found.
18:23:52 <Gregor> fizzie: The script was originally generating the entire log's HTML, dynamically.
18:23:59 <Gregor> fizzie: Then people went all "bleh I'm a caveman I don't have JS"
18:24:33 <Gregor> fizzie: So now the only client-side feature is the highlighting; but that's associated with the hash in the URL (e.g. #001100Gregor), so you can give somebody else that URL and have the same line highlighted.
18:24:46 <Gregor> As I add searching and such, things will get more sophisticated.
18:25:35 <Gregor> (Stalker mode still generates the HTML dynamically)
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18:55:43 <Gregor> Considering that I put no effort whatsoever into making the HTML logs work on mobile browsers, it works surprisingly well.
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19:15:58 <olsner> I'd say that for the last 5 years or so, mobile browsing has been all about making desktop sites work well
19:20:58 <Gregor> Reasons why the USA seems so bad in media: 1) Our huge international influence means everything we do is global press. 2) We're freaking huge; not everything that happens anywhere in the US is even borderline representative of the entire country, and yet people don't say "France must suck!" when they hear about something terrible happening in Croatia. 3) We have some kind of problem with the notion of just laughing at people who are too stupid to live. Instead
19:20:58 <Gregor> they form niches and then become TV pundits.
19:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, no, I mean in terms of actual quality of life.
19:21:55 <Gregor> You either have fucking gold-lined streets or (2) applies.
19:23:16 <oerjan> thar's gold in them welsh hills
19:23:48 <oerjan> well duh that's how they extract it
19:24:06 <oerjan> the sheep eat the gold-infused grass in the hills
19:24:16 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i didn't want to assume you weren't
19:24:26 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: GLOGBOT KNOWS THE TRUTH NOW FOREVER
19:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I've stated multiple times before that I'm Scottish, I just get a kick out of fooling Vorpal.
19:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> (And that's NBSPed to avoid pings; please don't start letting him know.)
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19:26:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Inserted between the V and the o to throw off any ping highlighting.
19:26:54 <Gregor> !glogbot_expunge_regex /:Phantom_Hoover!.*PRIVMSG #esoteric :.*scot/i
19:27:04 <oerjan> my client doesn't even notice it's there...
19:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, ...you can make glogbot ignore arbitrary things?
19:27:21 <Gregor> oerjan: Then it's a good client that understands Unicode :P
19:27:34 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Pfff, nonsense.
19:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I actually *can* see it because in a fit of madness I set every font I could to Libertine, and it kerns the hell out of everything,
19:28:27 <Gregor> Heywait, don't you mean zero-width space?
19:28:35 <Gregor> Non-breaking space is still the width of a space :P
19:28:56 <Phantom_Hoover> YES ALL RIGHT GREGOR THANK YOU FOR BRINGING YOUR "FACTS" TO THE DISCUSSION
19:29:23 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ENJOY BEING LOCKED IN YOUR MATRIX OF SOLIDITY.
19:30:12 <oerjan> "Scotland does have the dubious distinction of eating even less healthily than America."
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19:30:24 <oerjan> (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonnieScotland)
19:30:26 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: it's a shame you're not welsh - welsh gets bonus points for appearing in a swedish word for gibberish, and I kind of like the welsh english accent
19:31:32 <Gregor> Let me guess, that literally means "The Language of the Welsh", but its connotation is "gibberish"
19:31:34 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!" <<< is what
19:32:22 <olsner> oerjan: rotvälska, which might mean rootwelsh
19:32:36 <oerjan> i don't know if it has anything to do with welsh, really
19:32:49 <olsner> nah, not really, they just both come from the same word somewhere earlier on that means foreign
19:33:30 <oerjan> kauderwelsch appears to be german
19:34:11 <oerjan> "A mixture of West Germanic and North Germanic languages spoken on the border between Germany and Denmark."
19:36:02 <oklopol> "<fizzie> In QWOP I did run (...well, "run") the hundred metres, but in GIRP I barely managed two metres." <<< i ran the 100m without cheating right?
19:36:13 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, I think you did.
19:36:16 <fizzie> oklopol: But that's you.
19:36:23 <Gregor> So what's GIRP? Second time I've seen it mentioned.
19:36:35 <oklopol> and how is that not enjoyable
19:36:40 <Deewiant> http://www.foddy.net/GIRP.html
19:36:42 <fizzie> It's like QWOP except you climb up.
19:36:57 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: it's not that much like QWOP either.)
19:37:27 <oklopol> i don't think it's safe to open that link
19:39:01 <fizzie> "That's why GIRP's score system changes over time: it'll show your distance when you start playing, but if you reach the top of the cliff (which will definitely take more than a few goes), it'll record how fast you can scamper up next time you play. Foddy says he can reach the peak in about 20 minutes."
19:39:05 <fizzie> Oh, so it has a goal too.
19:40:01 <fizzie> He's just the game creator; I'm sure you can improve on that.
19:40:05 <oklopol> but maybe i'll just watch house for now
19:41:46 <Phantom_Hoover> <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I have discovered the solution to all your Minecraft-related navigational plights!" <<< is what
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19:42:02 <Phantom_Hoover> http://s-ak.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web04/2011/2/24/9/enhanced-buzz-17712-1298559561-22.jpg
19:44:05 <oklopol> well yeah that certainly works
19:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm still entertained when I remember the time you tried to find some sand for the Cube and ended up walking to Deewiant's from the north.
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19:58:28 <oklopol> but i found the sand! admittedly that just meant i randomly bumped into a beach.
19:59:17 <Sgeo> <elliott> "C is a subset of C++" ;; wow, people actually say this.
19:59:38 <Sgeo> I know it's incorrect, but is it just things like whether void* gets automatically cast into other types of pointers, or is there more?
20:00:18 <Sgeo> (And that thingy that the polygot linked to by zzo38 exploited, with sizeof(char) being different)
20:08:31 <fizzie> There's the fact that C++ keywords (class, friend) are ordinary identifiers in C.
20:09:03 <fizzie> And some implicit-declaration things where you can leave prototypes out, but that's more of a bad idea.
20:09:08 <Deewiant> http://david.tribble.com/text/cdiffs.htm
20:12:27 <fizzie> One thing that I don't see in Deewiant's link is that C++ forbids calling main() recursively (rationale: "the main function may require special actions"), while in C that's of course all right.
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20:13:40 <oklopol> girp has absolutely nothing to do with qwop
20:13:41 <fizzie> The C++98 spec has an informative "Annex C: compatibility" which lists changes too.
20:13:55 <fizzie> oklopol: They're made by the same guy.
20:14:02 <oklopol> and have nothing in common
20:14:11 <fizzie> No, they have the author in common.
20:14:31 <fizzie> Also both are played by pressing keys on the keyboard.
20:14:33 <oklopol> right, and in both, there are pixels on the screen
20:14:47 <fizzie> The names are both 4 characters long.
20:15:31 <oklopol> anyone happen to know how to disable the keyboard shortcut for sticky keys
20:15:47 <fizzie> It used to be there in the "accessibility properties" thingamajick.
20:15:52 <oklopol> also while you're at it, anyone know how to remove "insert" completely
20:19:16 <oklopol> what the fuck is the point of sticky keys anyway, is it for people who love closing processes, and only have one finger?
20:20:29 <fizzie> Perhaps people who have only one finger and just want to use keyboard shortcuts in general.
20:21:09 <oklopol> oh hmm true. and here i thought it has very little use cases.
20:22:00 <fizzie> It's an a11y thing anyway, they're sort-of meant for people with... difficulties. Or whatever the PC expression is. ("Accessively challenged"?)
20:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, it doesn't have enough use cases to justify automatically binding it to the shift key.
20:22:50 <fizzie> Yes, their way to make those features more discoverable is not perhaps the best.
20:23:02 <fizzie> But doesn't the first-time prompt for it ask if you want to permanently disable it or not?
20:23:12 <oklopol> or if it does, i missed it
20:23:26 <oklopol> it always prompts whether i want to enable sticky keys
20:23:38 <fizzie> Oh, that's a bit of a silly.
20:24:08 <fizzie> The same place where you'd normally enable it (control panel/something/something) at least used to have the checkboxes that disable the automatical prompting.
20:24:32 <oklopol> yeah i managed to disable it
20:24:46 <oklopol> only took 5 minutes what with explorer crashing and all that
20:25:22 <oklopol> i should switch to another os, but since i'm prolly never going to do it maybe i should just stop using computers
20:27:05 <oklopol> i'm actually not entirely sure
20:27:44 <oklopol> so yeah maybe i'll need some sort of irc machine
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20:33:15 <fizzie> I used to be able to produce a sound that caused my modem to start a handshake (normally the calling side just waits), but I doubt anyone can actually do the whistling thing, at least with anything even remotely modern modem standards. (To start the handshake you just need a close-enough match for a 2100 Hz single-frequency tone, and at least my modem wasn't very picky about it.)
20:37:40 <Phantom_Hoover> So, in other news, Renault have become The Most Annoying Advertisers.
20:39:26 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:39:47 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You somehow opened the gates of oko.
20:40:03 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
20:40:12 <oklopol> good point i have no idea what happened there
20:40:13 <fizzie> I'm sure it is a neurological affectation of some sort.
20:41:15 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: or the oklopolypse
20:46:11 <fizzie> An oklopolyp is some sort of a marine thing.
20:46:32 <fizzie> "Did you mean: colon polyp"
20:46:40 <fizzie> No, Google, I did not mean that.
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20:49:21 <olsner> the plural of oklopol should be oklopodes
20:50:12 <olsner> or oklopals - as in "Oklopol and his Friendly Oklopals"
20:53:15 <oklopol> there are videos of me and others okoing for hours
20:53:38 <oklopol> but i don't like publishing picture of myself
20:55:04 <fizzie> Oklobaba. (Cf. Napababa.)
20:55:23 <olsner> if pictures of the oklo appear we'll use them to cut together a nature documentary about the shy oklopodes and their colorful and loud mating displays
20:55:31 <olsner> possibly narrated by attenborough
20:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, "The oklopol creates a nest from a bathtub, and fills it with nutritious Cola."
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20:58:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "If its potential mate prefers Sprite, however, all his work will have gone to waste."
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21:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Negative: unwanted life-changing spiritual experiences.
21:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't want this life-changing spiritual experience! I was quite happy being unenlightened!
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21:37:20 <oerjan> you had a life-changing spiritual experience, and are now completely certain that cthulhu loves you. with a little bearnaise sauce.
21:40:22 <Gregor> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1929 Bahaha
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22:15:53 <cpressey> So... a language whose programs form a group (like Burro) but the group is finitely generated (unlike Burro). I almost have one...
22:17:21 <cpressey> By all rights it should be named "Mulo" but I don't think I like that name.
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22:23:09 <elliott> 20:53:15: <oklopol> there are videos of me and others okoing for hours
22:23:09 <elliott> 20:53:38: <oklopol> but i don't like publishing picture of myself
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22:23:35 <oklopol> well i don't like killing people either but i'm still not a virgin
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22:26:20 <oerjan> cpressey: sounds like it should be doable if the commands just fail to commutate enough
22:26:48 <oklopol> burro isn't finitely generated?
22:27:15 <oerjan> it has some nested construct, doesn't it
22:27:58 <oklopol> well i don't remember at all, i just remember it was not a group
22:28:22 <oklopol> i'm a pessimistic bastard ain't i
22:29:06 <oerjan> you want to do something with lots of commutators. i think. >:)
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22:31:38 <oerjan> i am reminded of that underload variant which removes () and instead uses a command that adds a single-character list containing the next one
22:31:58 <oerjan> that's a finitely generated monoid, at least
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22:35:27 <oklopol> well a finitely generated monoid is a pair containing a set S and a function * from S^2 to S such that (a*b)*c = a*(b*c) for all a, b, c in S and there is some 1 in S such that 1*a = a*1 = a for all a in S and also there exists a finite subset X of S such that {1} union X union X^2 union ... union X^n is S for some n
22:35:52 <cpressey> yes, Burro, being based vaguely on brainfuck, has nested conditional blocks, so not finitely generated
22:37:11 <cpressey> it's totally a group now though, since 2010
22:37:41 <oklopol> maybe i'll check if i agree omorrow
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22:43:15 <cpressey> oerjan: I don't know about commutators -- I mean I've vaguely know what the concept is, I don't know how to work with them and I'm not approaching the design of the thing by saying to myself "ok so do I have enough commands that fail to commute yet". Maybe after I've got it together I'll try looking at it that way.
22:43:57 <cpressey> What I've got right now is basically a reversible tag system.
22:44:50 <cpressey> The inverse of matching the front of the queue and appending to the back, is (sort of) matching the back of the queue and appending to the front.
22:46:04 <cpressey> meanwhile -- I rock at javascript
22:46:56 <cpressey> wait there was no verb in that action
22:47:28 * oerjan accidentally cpressey's air guitar
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23:21:57 <elliott> THE SQL OVERLORDS ARE COMING
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23:22:33 <oerjan> oh dear'; drop table overlords; -- MWAHAHAHA
23:28:20 <Sgeo> Simon's hot... er, I got shot
23:31:28 <Sgeo> erm, as in, that's a quote
23:31:52 <oerjan> SimonRC: YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO
23:33:13 <oerjan> i suppose the chances of him responding are rather low, but that's an impressive uptime
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23:33:58 <Sgeo> What's his uptime? I don't see any such thing in whois
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