00:00:42 <shachaf> oerjan: are you sure you didn't mean ban me for trolling
00:00:47 <shachaf> i did do the dahl.net thing once remember
00:01:10 <shachaf> but imo dont ban me because im too cool to get banned
00:01:57 <oerjan> shachaf: that would be like sentencing a masochist to lashes
00:02:23 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't want to get banned
00:02:51 <oerjan> YOUR REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY WILL GET YOU NOWHERE
00:03:53 <Sgeo> I'm already getting ambiguous type constraints
00:04:15 <Jafet> `run echo 'write a class Upcastable child parent where upcast :: child -> parent' | rainwords
00:04:18 <HackEgo> write a class Upcastable child parent where upcast :: child -> parent
00:04:20 <Bike> imo just upcase = unsafeCoerce
00:04:43 <Jafet> That's how C++ works right
00:05:23 <shachaf> Jafet: in C++ it's unsafeCoerce and a bit of pointer arithmetic
00:05:31 <Sgeo> It's now complaining about overlapping instances
00:05:50 <shachaf> Sgeo: have you considered that you're doing bad things and you should stop
00:06:18 <Sgeo> instance (Upcastable a b, Upcastable b c) => Upcastable a c where
00:06:21 <Sgeo> That's the only bad thing
00:06:26 <shachaf> Sgeo............................
00:07:04 * Sgeo will skip that for now
00:07:27 <Bike> btw sgeo i think i'm going to have beaten you out for farmingdaleness soon
00:07:33 <Bike> this school has a degree program in organic food
00:07:33 <shachaf> Bike: So you know what a lens is, right?
00:07:37 <Jafet> "I tried to write java in haskell, but it wouldn't typecheck"
00:07:45 <Bike> i've heard of lensess
00:08:01 <shachaf> Bike: Here's a lens lens: type Lens s t a b = forall f. Functor f => (a -> f b) -> s -> f t
00:08:19 -!- augur has joined.
00:08:27 <Sgeo> Nothing I'm trying shouldn't typecheck
00:08:32 <Sgeo> I'm not supporting downcasting
00:09:30 <elliott> does Bike know more about Sgeo than instance resolution already
00:09:41 <elliott> Bike: quick, tell me about the open world assumption
00:09:43 <Bike> no i just like laughing at things
00:10:09 <Bike> the open world assumption is that thing which is why you get errors like "No instance for (Num String)" instead of "you can't add strings together douchelord"
00:10:55 <elliott> i mean you could rephrase "No instance for Num String" as "you can't Num Strings douchelord"
00:11:02 <shachaf> Bike: wait you know things about Sgeo?
00:11:03 <Bike> because it's assuming that maybe there could be an instance for Num String, instead of just saying "well there's no way that's possible"
00:11:18 <elliott> you have the basic idea down I give you 7.5/10
00:11:38 <elliott> put in a bit of work and it could be 7.6/10, Bike
00:11:38 <Bike> shachaf: There's also a Farmingdale near the place. It's actually called Farmingdale.
00:12:02 <shachaf> i can't tell if elliott's thing was on purpose or not
00:12:54 <Bike> the open elliott assumption
00:13:08 <Sgeo> I like to think that this gets covariance and contravariance concrete in my head
00:13:31 <shachaf> well it gets some kind of concrete in your head
00:14:13 <oerjan> shachaf: it has to become a brainfuck derivative first
00:14:31 <Sgeo> @pl \f a b -> f (a b)
00:14:32 <shachaf> oerjan: nobody said anything about a brick
00:14:42 <shachaf> or about a brain for that matter
00:15:12 <nooga> i have this new idea for an esoteric programming language
00:15:23 <Bike> based on gyroscopy?
00:15:59 <oerjan> does it have 8 commands?
00:16:01 <nooga> basically it's like brainfuck bit with elliott instead of -
00:16:51 <Bike> this major is literally how to be a farmer. awesome
00:17:47 <elliott> Bike: can you get it from farmingdale
00:18:20 <elliott> Bike: also: what are its poultry science buildings like.
00:18:38 <Bike> no but it's a few miles south of Farmington, Washington
00:19:20 <Sgeo> I think I found a GHC bug.
00:19:44 <shachaf> let's take bets on whether Sgeo found a ghcbug
00:19:56 <Sgeo> Although it's in 7.4.2 so maybe it's well-known and fixed
00:20:36 <Sgeo> Something about irrefutable pattern failed
00:20:40 <Sgeo> http://ideone.com/wAuRUq
00:21:03 <elliott> I see ideone upgraded their GHC
00:21:06 <Bike> i like those extensions.
00:21:19 <shachaf> Oh, maybe that is a GHC bug.
00:21:19 <Sgeo> Oh, I should get rid of OverlappingInstances
00:21:33 <Sgeo> It didn't even help the one that was complaining about overlapping whatever
00:21:51 <shachaf> instance (Upcastable c1 p1, Upcastable c2 p2) => (p1 -> c2) -> (c1 -> p2) where
00:22:02 <shachaf> Please note that (->) is not a type class.
00:22:56 <Bike> but what if it was
00:24:07 <Bike> is it the paper about making reals without making rationals
00:25:08 <Bike> sgeo's thing seems like it could have a more comprehensible error, though.
00:25:18 <elliott> yes that's what was fixed in 7.6
00:25:27 <elliott> Bike: no but that paper sounds cool too, link
00:25:32 <elliott> i mean i can think of ways to do it.
00:25:35 <elliott> also it's probably classical and awful.
00:25:40 <Sgeo> Bike, it is a GHC bug. The error is not supposed to be about irrefutable patterns being broken in compiler code
00:25:45 <shachaf> Bike: R is just the power set of N hth
00:25:54 <elliott> (this one is Operational Semantics Using the Partiality Monad by Nils Anders Danielsson.)
00:26:24 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0405454
00:26:44 <shachaf> is he all done with writing fairy tales?
00:27:03 <Bike> it has plenty of category theoryy stuff in it iirc
00:27:11 <Bike> though maybe i'm being confused with how i was reading about adjoints later
00:27:14 <Sgeo> @pl \f c -> uc (f (uc c))
00:27:33 <shachaf> Bike: i heard they were legal in washington now
00:27:39 <Sgeo> @pl \f c -> uc (f (uc1 c))
00:27:45 <Bike> damn straight.
00:27:53 <shachaf> anyway category theory more like bad theory right
00:28:05 <Bike> more like theory that is stupid and dumb
00:28:31 <Bike> "Dairy Cattle Management Laboratory" is a class.
00:28:38 <Sgeo> :t listFromMaybe
00:28:40 <elliott> Bike: wow this looks like a paper I might actually understand.
00:28:40 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `listToMaybe' (imported from Data.Maybe)
00:28:46 <Bike> elliott: weird huh
00:28:57 <elliott> Bike: it's an uncommon occurrence :(
00:28:59 <Bike> :t maybeToList
00:29:16 <Bike> elliott: being dumb and stupid is suffering.
00:29:24 <Bike> > maybeToList (Just 437)
00:29:28 <elliott> also, suffering is stupid and dumb
00:29:40 <elliott> > Foldable.toList (Just 437) -- the true way to write it
00:29:42 <shachaf> dude the real numbers = just the powerset of the natural numbers
00:29:43 <elliott> > F.toList (Just 437) -- the true way to write it
00:29:50 <Bike> good job elliott.
00:29:57 <elliott> shachaf: how are you going to define arithmetic on that nicely exactly
00:30:00 <elliott> > Data.Foldable.toList (Just 437) -- the true way to write it
00:30:02 <Bike> shachaf: That doesn't involve the word "Eudoxus" though.
00:30:19 <Bike> > listToMaybe [437,0]
00:30:21 <shachaf> elliott: don't you know how maths work
00:30:47 <elliott> this guy's email is at lemma-one.com
00:30:51 <elliott> that is a very yellow site.
00:31:06 <elliott> oh that site is maintained by the person who wrote this. I get the feeling this guy might not be a Real Mathematician™
00:31:18 <Bike> hey, hey. ProofPower - a suite of tools for specification and proof in HOL and Z; also the Compliance Tool for specifying and verifying Ada programs.
00:31:21 <Bike> Get on that sgeo.
00:31:25 <Bike> elliott: You mean a crank?
00:31:25 <shachaf> as MCALLISTER Keegan used to say: what's yellow &c
00:31:40 <elliott> Bike: also wait aren't you like a biologist. how do you know about this paper. I am suspicious
00:31:46 <Bike> http://lemma-one.com/email.gif
00:31:52 <shachaf> Bike is a biologist???????????????????????????????????
00:32:02 <Bike> a wannabe biologist
00:32:07 <elliott> Magnitudes are said to be in the same ratio, the first to the second
00:32:07 <elliott> and the third to the fourth, when, if any equimultiples whatever are taken
00:32:07 <elliott> of the first and third, and any equimultiples whatever of the second and
00:32:07 <elliott> fourth, the former equimultiples alike exceed, are alike equal to, or alike
00:32:07 <elliott> fall short of, the latter equimultiples respectively taken in corresponding
00:32:10 <Bike> most people i know are mathers though
00:32:12 <elliott> Euclid. Elements of Geometry. Book V. Definition 5.
00:32:14 <elliott> i forgot how fucking unreadable the Elements are
00:32:47 <Bike> haha yeah i have that God Created the Integers book and the Elements are like "a line is a thing between two points" or whatever and it's like well... okay...
00:33:03 <shachaf> elliott: you think that's unreadable, try it in greek
00:33:21 <Bike> but seriously, I think mathematical biology is Pretty Cool and just like math by itself anyway.
00:33:32 <Bike> maybe i just like reading shit i barley understand. barley understand. barley
00:34:04 <elliott> pretty sure mathematical biology cannot be a true mathematic just going by the name prove me wrong
00:34:21 <shachaf> elliott: is "a mathematic" what "a math" stands for
00:34:23 <Bike> kolmogorov half invented it
00:34:38 <shachaf> ok that's pretty good but who invented the other half
00:34:38 <elliott> shachaf: no, math stands for a spelling error
00:34:46 <shachaf> elliott: not "math", "a math"
00:34:52 <Bike> shachaf: i dunno probably lotka
00:34:53 <shachaf> as in one math, multiple maths
00:35:08 <elliott> kolmogorov was a weird dude. well, probably. I know nothing about him
00:35:17 <Sgeo> I try to use upcast, now it's saying it wants incoherent instances
00:35:20 <Bike> he was gay that's "pretty weird" everybody around me says
00:35:34 <shachaf> Sgeo: someone here is being incoherent
00:35:35 <Bike> also a mega genius so probably crazy.
00:37:02 <shachaf> hey what does kolya stand for
00:37:09 <tromp_> i heard he loved to ski naked:)
00:37:17 <elliott> sequence of integers in which the m-th term, Rm say, gives the number of columns
00:37:19 <elliott> to the left of or in line with the m-th railing in the figure. This sequence Rm will
00:37:20 <Bike> Techniques in semen handling, insemination, and pregnancy detection in cattle.
00:37:30 <elliott> wow such wastefulness, should clearly replace every element with it subtracted from the previous one
00:37:45 <shachaf> I don't quite follow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay
00:37:52 <shachaf> Nikolay or Nikolai is an East Slavic variant of the feminine name Nicola, meaning "Goat Whisperer." It may refer to:
00:38:02 <shachaf> then there's a long list of people named nikolay
00:38:04 <shachaf> Nikolai Aleksandrovich or Nikolay Aleksandrovich (Russian: Николай Александрович), ofter shortened Nicolay or Nicolai without the patronymic Aleksandrovich, is a Russian male given name. It may refer to:
00:38:13 <shachaf> and a long list of people named nikolai aleksandrovich
00:38:21 <shachaf> what's special about the patronym aleksandrovich
00:38:28 <Bike> it's popular i guess
00:39:44 <SirCmpwn> https://gist.github.com/SirCmpwn/57f20df5698a128b4411
00:40:05 <SirCmpwn> elon musk is going to read this as part of a letter that will decide if I am to be hired at spacex
00:40:31 <SirCmpwn> I think my IRC bot is impressive enough to mention (and in line with the kind of problem solving they want to see), but I have to say 'brainfuck' to a recruiter if I mention it
00:40:39 <Bike> Does spacex use wacky verification stuff like NASA
00:40:54 <Bike> I bet you could make some shit up about brainfuck being easy to reason about
00:40:56 <SirCmpwn> what is wacky verification stuff
00:40:58 <shachaf> Sgeo: imo just port it to some derivative with a less offensive name
00:41:09 <shachaf> if you're worried about that
00:41:20 <shachaf> there once was a fish named fred
00:41:28 <shachaf> you'll have to extend it with a mechanism for output (or was it input)
00:42:28 <elliott> Bike: hm I wonder how well this construction goes constructively.
00:42:57 <Bike> Maybe you could set up some rules about where rails can be.
00:43:01 <shachaf> elliott: well it's a construction soooooo ...................
00:43:31 <elliott> Bike: does this paper show e.g. how to define pi and such
00:43:52 <Bike> SirCmpwn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPIN_model_checker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Pathfinder that sort of stuff
00:44:01 <kmc> SPIN is cool
00:44:09 <kmc> i took a class from the main SPIN guy
00:44:46 <Bike> Maybe you could stop being upset.
00:44:51 <Bike> SirCmpwn: re: wacky verification stuff
00:45:28 <SirCmpwn> maybe for rocket-grade software
00:45:32 <SirCmpwn> but that's not what I'd be working on there
00:45:36 <shachaf> elliott: pi is the ratio of the length of the circumference of a circle to twice the length of the radius of a circle hth
00:46:08 <SirCmpwn> their space-grade software run on Linux, though, so if it's good enough for linux, it's good enough for them
00:46:31 <elliott> wow, they trust rockets to Linux?
00:46:36 <elliott> must have never looked at the code
00:46:54 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:46:55 <Bike> Well the ISS uses Windows.
00:47:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> Nikolay or Nikolai is an East Slavic variant of the feminine name Nicola, meaning "Goat Whisperer." It may refer to: <-- that's vandalism, i've reverted it. in the process realizing you _can_ undo a row of edits simultaneously now...
00:47:39 <shachaf> oerjan: oh i wasn't talking about that part
00:47:44 <Bike> "I don't have an issue with serving in the military per se, but serving in the South African army suppressing black people just didn't seem like a really good way to spend time"
00:47:46 <elliott> Bike: not for the actual super duper important stuff I'd assume
00:47:47 <Jafet> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/12/drone_consoles_linux_switch/
00:47:58 <Bike> elliott: well nah.
00:48:21 <Bike> "Musk went on to a graduate program in both applied physics and materials science at Stanford in 1995. He stayed two days before dropping out to start Zip2, which provided online content publishing software for news organisations,"
00:49:08 <elliott> ok I think it was another paypal founder who was completely crazy.
00:49:24 <Bike> Musk had plans for a "Mars Oasis" project in 2001, which would land a miniature experimental greenhouse on Mars, containing food crops growing on Martian regolith.
00:49:33 <Bike> Oh, you mean the one who wanted to found the place from Bioshock?
00:49:56 <shachaf> how about the one who wrestled on the floor
00:50:10 <elliott> also the weird misogynist I think?
00:50:29 <kmc> so is elon musk also an obnoxious libertarian
00:50:29 <Bike> hm this other paypal guy was a producer of Thank You For Smoking, I can't hate that
00:50:38 <kmc> like peter thiel
00:50:56 <elliott> right peter thiel was the one
00:50:58 <Bike> ah okay Thiel's the bioshock guy
00:51:35 <elliott> ok musk seems like a decent guy. or at least I see no evidence to suggest otherwise
00:51:38 <kmc> peter thiel said that letting women vote was the biggest political catastrophe of the 20th century, or something
00:51:43 <elliott> except for founding a company with peter thiel I guess?
00:51:45 <kmc> because it means that libertarianism won't automatically win always
00:51:49 <Bike> ok i want to hear the explanation behind that
00:51:56 <elliott> also I guess paypal is kind of evil but I suppose that probably came later
00:52:02 <Bike> "The Diversity Myth" oh, well,
00:52:15 <kmc> is that the article about how great it was that PayPal was 100% male bros from stanford
00:52:26 <Bike> no it's a fucking entire book
00:52:27 <kmc> and they would wrestle with each other to settle arguments?
00:52:36 <Bike> "The Diversity Myth: 'Multiculturalism' and the Politics of Intolerance at Stanford"
00:52:46 <Bike> pretty sure you can fill in the synopsis yourself
00:53:04 <Bike> got a negative review from Condaleeza Rice, lol
00:53:11 <Bike> whose name i can't spell
00:53:49 <Bike> Hyperloop is a hypothetical mode of high-speed transportation proposed by inventor and SpaceX founder Elon Musk. Musk has envisioned the system as a 'fifth mode' of transportation, an alternative to boats, planes, cars and trains.[1] The system would, in theory, be able to travel from downtown Los Angeles to downtown San Francisco in under 30 minutes.[2]
00:55:02 <Bike> oh, thiel also helped with Thank you for smoking. guess i can hate that.
00:55:18 <Fiora> that was a good movie though :<
00:55:56 <Bike> Huh it was made by William Buckley's son!
00:55:58 <Fiora> at least I remember it being good
00:56:01 <Bike> I didn't know htat.
00:56:04 <Bike> Yeah, I liked the movie too.
00:56:16 <kmc> i'm sure peter thiel has done at least one thing I like even if he is a douchebag
00:56:20 <kmc> that's life
00:56:42 <Fiora> elliott: the optimist in me would imagine that as a book about colleges seeking superficial diversity while ignoring the hard things (e.g. class) so they end up with a bunch of ""diverse"" suburban upper-middle-class kids
00:56:46 <Fiora> but I'm guesing that isn't it
00:56:51 <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too
00:57:00 <Fiora> he painted pictures?
00:57:02 <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
00:57:06 <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler
00:57:06 <Bike> his paintings are kind of shitty
00:57:07 <kmc> they weren't very good pictures
00:57:10 <kmc> oh yeah, there we go
00:57:12 <kmc> thanks Fiora
00:57:13 <Fiora> that's one thing he did that was good, right
00:57:18 <Fiora> so he wasn't all bad was he
00:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i haven't had a good libertarian bashing for like a week
00:57:24 <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
00:57:31 <Bike> yeah that's right, i'm stealing a joke from a youtube comment.
00:57:36 <elliott> unlike the rest of us, Phantom_Hoover is referring to literal bashing.
00:57:36 <Fiora> ... that's true. that's pretty bad
00:57:45 <elliott> a side-project to unwind from all the brainfuck derivative brainbricking
00:58:05 <elliott> `addquote <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
00:58:09 <Phantom_Hoover> (please read that in your head without a hint of sarcasm)
00:58:09 <HackEgo> 1008) <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
00:58:30 <elliott> kmc: it's gonna be great when your future employer finds the #esoteric quote database
00:59:05 <HackEgo> 597) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 628) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 699) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 702) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
00:59:10 <elliott> Bike: secretly I steal all my jokes from youtube comments
00:59:14 <Bike> wow that's pretty hireable
00:59:31 <Bike> i kind of want to hire him and i'm not even an employer
00:59:48 <elliott> thankfully 702 cut off just before the reference to illicit activities
00:59:51 <shachaf> i pay in tosanini's burnt caramel ice cream
01:00:11 <elliott> shachaf: i want ice cream now
01:00:38 <shachaf> elliott: imo come to Mid-Cambridge, MA and have yourself some burnt caramel ice cream from toscanini's
01:01:21 <Fiora> `addquote <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler <kmc> oh yeah, there we go <kmc> thanks Fiora <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
01:01:24 <HackEgo> 1009) <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas <Fiora> oh! he killed hitler <kmc> oh yeah, there we go <kmc> thanks Fiora <Bike> he also killed the guy who killed hitler
01:01:36 <elliott> is there anything interesting in cambridge
01:01:43 <HackEgo> *poof* <kmc> hm hitler probably did one thing that I like too <kmc> he banned tubas, I guess I am neutral on tubas
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01:02:21 <elliott> 01:55:42 <dolio> Do you prefer burnt caramel ice cream or salted caramel ice cream?
01:02:24 <elliott> 01:55:57 <shachaf> dolio: salted hth
01:02:27 <elliott> shachaf are you advertising the inferior ice cream to me.
01:02:45 <shachaf> 17:57 <shachaf> dolio: I was at Toscanini's in Jan 2012 and I had burnt caramel ice cream!
01:02:48 <shachaf> 17:58 <shachaf> I was looking forward to it and then disappointed.
01:02:49 <shachaf> 17:58 <shachaf> I guess I don't like burnt things very much? :-(
01:02:56 <elliott> you wanted to disappoint me.
01:03:01 <shachaf> 17:58 <dolio> It's delicious.
01:03:05 <elliott> isn't burnt caramel basically... caramel.
01:03:08 <shachaf> the real qustion is who do you trust
01:06:27 <shachaf> Sgeo: You're abusing type classes. Stop it.
01:06:50 <Sgeo> I abuse norns, I abuse type classes
01:06:58 <oerjan> caramel is basically burnt sugar
01:07:06 <Bike> some kind of psychopath but actually just kind of sad to watch
01:07:08 <elliott> oerjan: hence my confusion.
01:07:18 <shachaf> you think you can only burn something once?
01:07:22 <shachaf> burn sugar, it becomes caramel
01:07:29 <shachaf> burn caramel, it becomes burnt caramel
01:08:51 <elliott> what happens if you burn burnt caramel
01:09:35 <shachaf> if you freeze burnt caramel you get burnt caramel ice cream hth
01:09:38 <HackEgo> 29) <ehird> is there a problem with it being carbonized :D <augur> yes: carbonized coffee bean is known more commonly as "charcoal"
01:17:01 <shachaf> wait jackalopes aren't real?
01:17:12 <Bike> you lived in washington and didn't know that?
01:17:32 <elliott> Bike: oh huh. addition is really easy.
01:17:41 <shachaf> Bike: i never knew exactly what they were :'(
01:18:51 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> Bike: oh huh. addition is really easy.
01:18:54 <HackEgo> 1009) <elliott> Bike: oh huh. addition is really easy.
01:19:37 <shachaf> elliott: well i mean it stands to reason addition would be easy
01:19:51 <shachaf> after all.....................
01:20:01 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:20:21 <elliott> multiplication looks harder though. your theory needs work
01:20:34 <elliott> Bike: help, this paper makes me want to write it out in Coq instead of doing things I want to do instead
01:20:43 <elliott> like maybe learn Idris, or read that Operational Semantics Using the Partiality Monad paper.
01:20:56 <shachaf> elliott: imo finish the category theory thing instead?
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01:25:14 <elliott> Bike: oh, this bounded range thing is gross.
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01:30:12 <elliott> Bike: there is the third option of doing some kind of dependent lens thing.
01:34:24 <Bike> thank god for grossness
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01:51:29 <elliott> Bike: ok i lied this is the worst
01:51:49 <Bike> worst is pretty bad
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01:58:17 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0405454, monqy
01:59:11 <elliott> if you link me to anything i have to write it in coq
01:59:26 <elliott> link me to poems? those are going to end up being coq
01:59:36 <shachaf> elliott: http://slbkbs.org/categ.hs
01:59:40 <elliott> link me to a picture of a cat? it's actually a picture of a rooster
02:00:07 <monqy> remember that "paper thing" about that thing the one with division by zero
02:00:19 <monqy> and the guy who did it was in here
02:00:34 <elliott> wow this isnt quackery!! im going to kill you for libel monqy
02:00:51 <Bike> Wait shit, you got the phi dude in here?
02:00:59 <Bike> or whatever he called his stupid... everything
02:01:06 <monqy> nullity dude? no this is diff.
02:01:16 <Bike> oh but i liked nullity :( (no i didn't)
02:01:25 <monqy> elliott: i figured as much but i was just reminded
02:01:26 <elliott> it awast nd idnvisision bey zero btw
02:01:37 <shachaf> British computer scientist's new "nullity" idea provokes reaction from mathematicians
02:02:05 <kmc> british computer scientist discovers 1 weird old trick
02:02:11 <Fiora> wasn't that the thing that was just NaN
02:02:23 <shachaf> we're talking about a different thing noW!!
02:02:39 <shachaf> btw does britain actually exist i think not
02:02:40 <Fiora> kmc: lose 15 epsilons in 3 weeks with this one weird old trick
02:02:56 <Bike> ugh but tao actually has a post on "epsilon management"
02:03:10 <monqy> elliott: wasnt it construction of the arithmetic's or something with the goal or something of hating division by zero and you dont want that
02:03:28 <monqy> so they reinvent the construction of the rationals but make it insane
02:03:32 <shachaf> Bike: well does erdős have one
02:03:34 <monqy> and use weird terminology
02:03:34 <elliott> monqy: well it was a bit different
02:03:38 <elliott> it rejected 0 itself instead
02:03:39 <Bike> i remember that guy
02:03:45 <Bike> something about "losing information"
02:03:48 <shachaf> hey remember that "paper thing" with the proof that the reals were countable
02:04:00 <shachaf> was that in here or in another channel
02:04:12 <elliott> it was weird for me when people started making 1 weird old trick jokes because like
02:04:17 <elliott> i just assume the adverts i see are for my eyes only
02:04:20 <elliott> everyone else gets different ones
02:04:20 <pikhq> shachaf: I don't think that was here, but it sounds hilarious.
02:04:40 <Bike> well have u ever seen an uncountable real
02:04:42 <Bike> with ur own eyes
02:04:53 <kmc> i assume the exact number of tricks and the various adjectives which apply to them were determined by an iterative optimization procedure
02:06:12 <Jafet> Bike: you need to look through the perspex machine
02:06:23 <Bike> was that the nullity guy?
02:06:44 <Bike> «James Anderson is an academic staff "member" in the School of Systems Engineering at the University of Reading, England.» i'm glad i looked this up
02:07:01 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bike: well does erdős have one <-- erdős used the word "epsilon" for children hth
02:07:08 <shachaf> oerjan: that's what i meant hth
02:07:12 <Bike> oh i remember this
02:07:15 <kmc> oerjan: erdős invented that?
02:07:18 <kmc> all my friends do that
02:07:31 <shachaf> everyone i know who's talked about it says it's erdős
02:07:36 <Bike> erdos invented basically everything euler didn't i thought
02:08:03 <Bike> "Perspex Machine V: Compilation of C Programs"
02:08:11 <oerjan> <shachaf> hey remember that "paper thing" with the proof that the reals were countable <-- those are a dime a dozen, see the good math, bad math blog (the bad section)
02:08:11 <Sgeo> I think I thought of a way to get my thing to work, but it's sort of horrible
02:08:18 <shachaf> kmc: how do you make ő with compose
02:08:20 <monqy> Sgeo: is there a way that isnt horrible
02:08:25 <shachaf> oerjan: I mean a specific one.
02:08:26 <kmc> Multi_key = o
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02:08:32 <Sgeo> A class of NonFunctions, and a separate manually written instance of interesting types
02:08:51 <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist.
02:08:57 <shachaf> <dead_doubleacute> <o> elliott : "ő" U0151 # LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE
02:09:02 <shachaf> HOW IS THAT SUPPOSED TO HELP ME
02:09:20 <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D.
02:09:23 <Bike> It literally says that
02:09:26 <kmc> isn't it great that Ｉ doesn't show up at all in my font
02:09:37 <Bike> also it's... written in poplog... for some reason
02:10:13 <Bike> vars transarith = true;
02:10:19 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist. <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D. <Bike> It literally says that
02:10:23 <HackEgo> 1010) <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist. <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D. <Bike> It literally says that
02:10:57 <Bike> well i mean there's more
02:11:02 <Bike> if you want to read two paragraphs of nonsense
02:11:18 <kmc> if I didn't want to read two paragraphs of nonsense, would I be in this channel?
02:11:31 <Bike> define isstrictlytransreal(num); lvars num; num == nuly or num == pinf or num == ninf enddefine;
02:11:31 <shachaf> imo he has a mind reading device hooked up to my brain
02:11:56 <kmc> nulynulynulynuly
02:11:59 <Bike> i actually am not sure what language this is? i thought it was prolog but i guessnot
02:12:09 <Bike> its error routine is called "mishap"
02:12:17 <kmc> it's the elder tongue
02:12:39 <Bike> Return a transreal number given the numerator and denominator. Irrational numbers conventionally have denominator d = 1.
02:12:44 <kmc> v. british
02:12:52 <kmc> fatal error function is "cock-up"
02:13:53 <kmc> I really love that "cock-up" is considered a normal and non-vulgar british phrase
02:14:04 <kmc> so you get BBC headlines like "MoD helicopter fiasco a 'gold standard cock-up'"
02:14:09 <monqy> Bike: is this pseudocode or
02:14:17 <monqy> Bike: not that it makes a difference....
02:14:40 <Bike> Real arithmetic obeys the trichotomy axiom: a number can be greater than, equal to, or less than zero. But transreal arithmetic obeys the quadrachotomy axiom: a number can be nullity or else it can be greater than, equal to, or less than zero.
02:14:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Cockup
02:14:59 <kmc> imo tetrachotomy sounds cooler
02:15:03 <Bike> monqy: it's formatted like real code and mentions poplog which has like nine languages in it?
02:15:22 <Jafet> I had to go for a quadrachotomy once
02:15:33 <Bike> hey it has infix precedence things
02:15:34 <monqy> poplog isn't prolog it's poplog(??????????????????????????????????????)
02:15:36 <Bike> maybe it's haskell!
02:16:04 <Bike> i dunno it doesn't look like ML either
02:16:06 <oerjan> Bike: prolog has that too
02:16:14 <Bike> oh it's in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POP-11
02:16:21 <monqy> Poplog is a reflective, incrementally compiled software development environment for the programming languages POP-11, Common Lisp, Prolog, and Standard ML, originally created in the UK for teaching and research in artificial intelligence at the University of Sussex.
02:16:41 <Bike> define 7 ##= (num1, num2);
02:16:54 <Bike> you got some kinda problem with COWSEL kmc
02:17:01 <monqy> thanks now i know what 7 means
02:17:35 <Bike> this whole long thing of code is literally just to add 0/0 and 1/0 and -1/0 i hate everything
02:18:04 <monqy> is there anything special about pop-11 or is it just this crazy guy being crazy
02:18:14 <elliott> Consider the untyped λ-calculus with a countably infinite set of
02:18:14 <elliott> t ::= c | x | λx.t | t1 t2
02:18:14 <elliott> Closed terms written in this language can compute to a value (a
02:18:14 <elliott> constant c or a closure λx.tρ), but they can also go wrong (crash)
02:18:14 <shachaf> Bike why are you reading things of code
02:18:28 <Bike> shachaf: because i'm sure as fuck not gonna read his papers
02:18:29 <elliott> this paper is stretching my suspension of disbelief a bit with the notion that these programs can crash.
02:18:43 <monqy> elliott: well, constants
02:18:52 <Bike> elliott: what happens if i do "4 5" huh!!
02:18:55 <elliott> monqy: what's wrong with constants????????????????
02:18:56 <Bike> that's right CRASH
02:19:02 <elliott> monqy: it never says they're crashy!!
02:19:10 <elliott> i guess applying them makes sense as a crash
02:19:16 <kmc> the great thing about constants is that there are so many of them to choose from
02:19:18 <elliott> i would have assumed 4 5 is just `inert'
02:19:23 <elliott> you treat them as `primitives' or w/e
02:19:27 <monqy> that's what a crash is
02:19:39 <Bike> ok wait back up
02:19:40 <monqy> crashing is when you get stuck
02:19:45 <Bike> since when do you call a lambda abstraction a "closure"
02:19:47 <elliott> imo its not a crash to do something like that...... because you dont say the program is Wrong necessarily
02:19:49 <monqy> Thank You Operational Semantics
02:20:03 <Bike> thanks haskell
02:20:17 <monqy> youre stuck when you cant make a transition
02:20:26 <kmc> elliott: crush... Qed.
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02:20:56 <monqy> what style of operatiaonal semantics is this
02:21:17 <monqy> if it's with a `partiality monad` it's probably big step?
02:21:26 <Bike> It might be better to separate type checking from from number set membership. For example, 2 is a member of the real, transreal, complex, and transcomplex numbers; but it has builtin type integer and polymorphically real. A purist would keep the builtin real and complex types distinct, but many languages promote real to complex. Types are a
02:21:31 <Bike> language issue and need to be resolved for each individual language.
02:23:03 <elliott> monqy: Operational Semantics Using the Partiality Monad
02:23:15 <Jafet> imo Bike should do a writeup on the wiki
02:23:18 <monqy> no im confused about bike's thing
02:23:31 <elliott> answering your QUESTIOn gOSH!
02:23:56 <Bike> Transrithmetical
02:24:20 <monqy> looks like this is in AGDA ~uh oh~
02:24:21 <Bike> i need to look up who published this shithead though
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02:25:20 <Bike> "Proceedings of SPIE offer access to the latest innovations in research and technology and are among the most cited references in patent literature."
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02:26:19 <elliott> monqy: Nils Anders Danielsson is <italics>An Agda Guye</italics>
02:26:27 <monqy> is that a legit conf or one of those drug fronts that'll accept just about anything even scigen
02:26:30 <elliott> i think he wrote the agda stdlib
02:26:44 <Bike> SCIE seems sorta legit
02:26:54 <Bike> except that he was presenting this at a fucking vision conference
02:26:57 <elliott> monqy: how many drug fronts have you published in
02:27:22 <Bike> and some AI thing
02:27:44 <elliott> not ready for the drugs yet
02:28:06 <elliott> just say Nothing (programmer joke :-))
02:28:49 <monqy> cute, this defines a big step relation for terminating computations, a relation for nonterminating computations, and a relation for crashing computations
02:29:40 <elliott> only to tear down the relations :-O
02:29:41 <monqy> the only big step ive ever seen either only defines semantics for terminating stuff or it's defined coinductively....
02:30:28 <Bike> was elliott called ehird because he was super into HIRD
02:30:41 <shachaf> HIRD Elliott: Are you going to do the category thing?
02:30:51 <elliott> are you going to continue addressing me as HIRD Elliott
02:31:14 <elliott> it seems moderately pointless
02:35:14 <SirCmpwn> I decided to leave the text about my brainfuck bot in place
02:35:23 <SirCmpwn> I tweaked it to only say "brainfuck" once, and in quotes
02:35:55 <shachaf> I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on the other side, in parenthesis, capital letters, quotated, read the following words:
02:35:59 <Bike> a language related to P'' called "brain fuck"
02:36:48 <shachaf> (“KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?”)
02:37:55 <shachaf> Bike haven't you heard Alice's Restaurant
02:38:41 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjKF7aQthcQ
02:38:49 <shachaf> kmc can confirm that imo go listen
02:39:46 <Bike> 23 minute song
02:39:49 <Bike> this can't possibly be bad
02:39:54 <elliott> "North Korea seen moving missile after it declares it has given approval for a nuclear attack on the United States"
02:40:29 <elliott> this song has guitar so shachaf probably hates it
02:40:33 <Bike> north korean rockets not working correctly, mysterious large package of "cake" arrives addressed toseoul
02:43:33 <elliott> shachaf: apparently this is a decades-later re-recording of the original from a decades-later re-recording of the album it originally appeared on, and now I'm sitting here trying to figure out why anyone would bother doing such a thing
02:43:40 <elliott> thank you for the bewilderment.
02:44:00 <shachaf> elliott: well have you heard the song
02:44:09 <oerjan> i bet MicheleZ5 is a spam account
02:44:56 <Bike> haha the singer endorsed ron paul
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02:45:32 <elliott> well everyone is endorsing ron paul these days. even fish
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02:47:26 <oerjan> elliott: north korea will make such a nice radioactive glass desert, don't you think
02:49:52 <Bike> the UN endorses ron paul yes
02:50:48 <oerjan> <shachaf> So's this channel? <-- HEY WE HAVE STRICT RULES ABOUT WHAT KIND OF POINTLESS STUFF IS ALLOWED HERE, SIR
02:51:02 <shachaf> oerjan: What are the rules?
02:51:34 <Bike> juche: a libertarian perspective
02:52:38 <oerjan> shachaf: I'M SORRY, THAT POINTLESS QUESTION IS FORBIDDEN BY THE RULES
02:53:22 <doesthiswork> so I don't think you should restrict the discussion to only pointful languages
02:58:21 <oerjan> indeed, pointless languages are among the things allowed to discuss here
03:01:37 <shachaf> oerjan: (\xs -> What are the xs?) rules
03:02:09 <doesthiswork> one thing that bugs me is how often we have to name intermediate values just so we can reuse them,
03:03:11 <oerjan> doesthiswork: yeah that's why they added \case to recent ghc haskell
03:03:25 <oerjan> (i think that was the finally decided syntax?)
03:04:36 <oerjan> shachaf: YOUR QUESTION IS BETA-EQUIVALENT TO A FORBIDDEN QUESTION
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03:18:44 <Bike> the heck is /case
03:19:49 <elliott> \case pats -> \v -> case v of pats for fresh v
03:19:58 <elliott> that first -> is a big ol ==> desugaring arrow
03:21:36 <Bike> oh so you can do like \case 0 -> 1; n -> n * fact (n-1) or whatever
03:22:03 <elliott> wow I feel like I need a fun fact about this feature.
03:23:55 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
03:24:05 <Bike> that doesn't use the feature.
03:24:07 <oerjan> Bike: it's particularly useful for chaining with >>=
03:24:11 <elliott> it's not even haskell in fact.
03:24:20 <shachaf> Bike: it's just a fun fact hth
03:24:25 <Bike> It's not but i expect shahaf to innovate through that,elliott.
03:24:32 <Bike> He's an innovator. It's what he does. He innovates.
03:24:49 <shachaf> build bigger, stronger walls
03:24:51 <elliott> go me for making a joke by mistake
03:25:10 <shachaf> elliott: i saw that but it was bad so i didn't comment
03:26:42 <oerjan> main = getArgs >>= (\case [fname] -> readFile fname; [] -> getContents) >>= putStr
03:27:17 <oerjan> although the parentheses are a bit naff
03:27:23 <elliott> are you trying to be british
03:27:41 <Bike> getArgs >>= $ \case [fname] ... $ >>= putStr i'm sure this will work.
03:27:45 <oerjan> i thought "ugly" first, but that's not quite it
03:30:41 <pikhq> oerjan: Sadly, not quite cat.
03:31:35 <oerjan> main = do getArgs >>= \case [fname] -> readFile fname; [] -> getContents
03:32:18 <shachaf> main = do do do getArgs >>= ...
03:32:40 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVUyyHYkBHk
03:32:55 <oerjan> shachaf: it was just to get rid of the parentheses
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03:34:07 <pikhq> main = getArgs >>= f >>= putStr where f [x] = readFile x;f [] = getContents
03:34:50 <Bike> now that's just crazy talk
03:34:56 <oerjan> pikhq: um the whole point here is to use \case to avoid making up names for more things than necessary
03:35:14 <Bike> an Important Readability Extension
03:35:48 <Jafet> Readability Of Functional Languages
03:36:06 * pikhq summons Pointfree Man
03:37:06 <Jafet> There should be a conference on esolang research
03:37:11 <Jafet> it can be called ROFL
03:37:50 <Jafet> Research on fringe languages
03:38:29 <kmc> it can be a working group at http://sigbovik.org/
03:39:09 <Bike> does esolang have a sigbovik affiliation; if not why not
03:39:24 <Bike> http://sigbovik.org/2013/images/mainlogo.png haha yes.
03:39:50 <Bike> AND a mustard watch reference
03:39:56 <Bike> Fiora: http://sigbovik.org/2013/images/graph13.png
03:40:05 <kmc> what is mustard watches
03:40:24 <Jafet> http://iml.univ-mrs.fr/~girard/mustard/page1.html
03:40:27 <Bike> something that one linear logic guy came up with
03:40:42 <Bike> it's a pretty obscure satire about nonclassical logics
03:40:52 <Bike> more importantly, it involves http://sigbovik.org/2013/images/graph7.png
03:41:25 <kmc> not sure i get the satire but I appreciate the surrealism
03:42:00 <Bike> basically people saying "what if we had a logic that let you do everything classical did PLUS GAVE YOU MUSTARD" i think
03:42:12 <Bike> iunno i'm shit at logic
03:42:14 <kmc> put a bird on it
03:43:14 <Bike> hm the business school is hilariously buzzwordy is that normal
03:43:23 <kmc> whose business school
03:43:42 <Jafet> None of your business school
03:43:42 <shachaf> none of your business school hth
03:43:43 <Bike> "CB graduates lead insightfully by skillfully applying core business competencies, employing a global perspective, and embracing diversity"
03:43:48 <shachaf> Jafet........................
03:43:56 <Jafet> I stole his mind reader.
03:44:10 <kmc> Bike: but do they leverage things
03:44:15 <shachaf> According to the logs Jafet posted it first. :-(
03:44:24 <shachaf> my irc client begs to differ
03:44:33 <ion> shachaf: Only from the subjective point of view of the logger.
03:44:40 <Bike> hm i'm seeing driving butnot leveraging
03:44:51 <kmc> i saw "leverage" used as a transitive verb to refer to actually physically using a lever on an object
03:44:57 <kmc> that was a weird full circle moment
03:45:01 <shachaf> begs to differ? is she even in version control?
03:45:12 * ion fullcircles kmc
03:46:02 <Bike> also the business school's blurb is about how they have wifi everywhere and nice dorms or whatever, where all the other ones maybe mention their new labs
03:47:27 <kmc> i think i've missed some context
03:47:43 <Bike> dude they have an entrepeneurship program.
03:47:50 <Bike> you can major in being an entrepeneur
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03:50:15 <kmc> everyone has that
03:50:58 <kmc> where do you think all the "idea people" just looking for a "technical co-founder" come from
03:51:23 <Bike> i thought they all dropped out of college to found dogbook.
03:53:25 <kmc> is that... facebook for dogs
03:53:48 <kmc> not as good as my 'facebook for kitchen appliances' idea
03:53:51 <Bike> if you have a better go-to stereotypical bullshit startup i'd be happy to hear it
03:54:01 <Bike> dude that's like, twenty syllables! i ain't got time for that shit.
03:54:28 <kmc> well these days it's all about gamifyinfg the mobile, social, local apps
03:55:14 <Bike> foursquare + halo
04:01:47 <kmc> apparently SCVNGR has more or less shut down and LevelUp is in dire straits
04:02:36 <kmc> maybe I shouldn't take joy in the failings of others, but their founder is a consummate douchenozzle
04:03:35 <kmc> http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/05/02/seth-priebatsch-the-ayn-rand-loving-feet-baring-efficiency-obsessed-savant-behind-scvngr/ http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/business/19entre.html?pagewanted=all
04:03:57 <Bike> hm i'm just gonna stop at that url
04:03:59 <elliott> Bike: I like "that one linear logic guy"
04:04:11 <Bike> elliott: you knew who i meant didn't you
04:04:13 <kmc> i like the part in the first article where he brags about stealing services from MIT and then in the same breath says that MIT students are lazy fatasses
04:04:16 <elliott> well, like, he sort of invented it
04:04:36 <Bike> on the other hand there is apparently a person named Guy who does linear logic so searching "linear logic guy" doesn't really work
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04:08:14 <elliott> wow, coinduction is a fucking pain to work with.
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04:15:55 <Bike> i am here and ready to talk about french logicians
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04:21:12 <elliott> <doesthiswork> what are you useing it for?
04:21:21 <elliott> doesthiswork: some play-around lambda calculus things in coq.
04:21:26 <elliott> i was trying to implement the things in this paper.
04:21:50 <Bike> oh hey elliott that reals paper, i got linked it because somebody thought it might be useful for lambda calculus things
04:21:54 <Bike> is that the case?
04:23:15 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoFRXks2X68#t=2m kmc: hi i'm bashar al-assad and welcome to jackass
04:23:37 <elliott> for like, implementing the computable reals in LC I guess?
04:23:47 <Bike> maybe if you implemented it in coq.......
04:23:51 <Bike> but yeah something like that
04:23:54 <Bike> i have no idea about these things
04:25:00 <elliott> anyway proving equalities about coninductive things is, like, awful.
04:25:46 <oerjan> elliott: which reminds me of that comment i saw about copatterns in r/haskell. i wonder what those are.
04:25:55 <kmc> Bike: cool now I know the arabic for "HOLY FUCK GUYS DID YOU SEE THAT"
04:26:17 <Bike> kmc: if i've learned anything from these videos it's that if you shout ALLAHU AKBAR constantly you're basically speakingn arabic
04:26:26 <elliott> oerjan: those are simple to explain
04:26:33 <kmc> they do say that a lot
04:26:40 <oerjan> supposedly they make codata more intuitive or something
04:26:41 <kmc> particularly in war type situations
04:26:43 <elliott> oerjan: imagine codata Stream a = Cons { head :: a, tail :: Stream a }
04:27:02 <elliott> tail (tail fibs) = zipWith (+) ...etc...
04:27:23 <Bike> that's kinda weird but i like it
04:27:25 <elliott> just defining fibs in terms of how it's destructed
04:27:48 <elliott> and you can write it as, e.g. codata Stream a = head a & tail (Stream a)
04:27:52 <elliott> to show how it's sort of dual to |
04:28:19 <elliott> map :: (a -> b) -> Stream a -> Stream b
04:28:29 <kmc> i don't totally get it though
04:28:33 <elliott> head (map f (Cons x xs)) = x
04:28:36 <kmc> the guy can set a tank on fire with some small hand-thrown weapon?
04:28:37 <Bike> http://24.media.tumblr.com/0a77e448bef7a06132fd72c1810c82bf/tumblr_mkmu7277Wq1sn19ono1_500.jpg
04:28:41 <kmc> and then the guys in the tank don't get out or anything?
04:28:43 <Bike> kmc: he put it in the barrel
04:28:45 <elliott> tail (map f (Cons x xs)) = map f xs
04:28:50 <elliott> uh, dunno how that looks with & though
04:28:55 <oerjan> elliott: *= f x surely
04:28:56 <Bike> and according to the comments (for god's sake don't read the comments) it might have been disabled by an RPG first
04:29:18 <Bike> generally speaking i don't think escaping from a burning tank is easy though
04:29:26 <elliott> head (map f (head x & tail _)) = f x; tail (map f (head _ & tail xs)) = map f xs or something
04:29:32 <kmc> oh yeah I see now holy shit
04:29:35 <elliott> you could use view patterns >:)
04:29:41 <Bike> basically yeah, holy shit.
04:29:42 <elliott> head (map f (head -> x)) = f x
04:29:49 <elliott> tail (map f (tail -> xs)) = map f xs
04:29:57 <Bike> i've seen a few videos of tanks going up like that and it's always a trip
04:30:21 <Bike> fire literally pouring out
04:32:15 <kmc> i guess there's a previous attempt at 1:20 or so
04:32:51 <elliott> oerjan: np. there's probably some much better / more complete write-up elsewhere, I just picked up the basic idea from IRC
04:33:19 <elliott> btw I like these two simultaneous conversations
04:33:39 <Bike> fire literally pouring out of the coinduction
04:34:17 <elliott> kmc: "As you've likely gathered, Priebatsch is 22 years old." I like how this article gets as close as possible to saying he's an asshole without actually doing so
04:34:46 <elliott> "I found out that basically the real world was essentially the same game as Civilization [an old computer game], just with slightly better graphics, maybe, and slightly slower."
04:35:10 -!- Bike has set topic: [an old computer game] | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
04:35:34 <elliott> I wonder if there's some kind of reason the world looks like Civilisation? o Sid Meier, what prescience you must have had to invent something that the world would later imitate
04:35:51 <kmc> elliott: I think it's a nice contrast about what young men do to seek glory under different circumstances
04:37:07 <kmc> I think the first time the grenade doesn't make it all the way down the barrel and so bits of grenade just come shooting out?
04:37:11 <elliott> "Priebatsch, like an undergrad reading Marx for the first time, started to look at everything through this new worldview."
04:37:19 <elliott> this article writer totally hates the guy
04:37:24 <kmc> i have some Marx open in a tab
04:37:41 <kmc> elliott: probably
04:38:07 <Bike> no i mean like... which thing of his.
04:38:08 <kmc> Theories of Surplus Value
04:38:19 <elliott> Bike: i think i might have had a dream about you being a bicycle. not sure though
04:38:30 <kmc> it was linked from something that was linked from something that... you know how it goes
04:38:31 <Bike> uh what else would i be
04:38:35 <kmc> i haven't read any Marx to date
04:38:37 <Bike> like a unicycle or some shit? come on bro.
04:38:46 <Bike> I think i read the communist manifesto once
04:38:51 <elliott> well this might be a little strange
04:38:55 <elliott> but my working hypothesis is that you are a person.
04:38:57 <Bike> paid enough attention to be amused at how much of it was complaints about communists
04:39:33 <Bike> elliott: could you write this hypothesis out for me in coq
04:41:09 <kmc> i don't think marxism is very respectable among modern economists
04:41:17 <kmc> but maybe it's important in a historical and cultural sense
04:41:45 <Bike> it's certainly nowhere near mainstream, even leftist economists go for something that's at best built off of it
04:42:08 <Bike> i mean it's like... old.
04:44:55 <Bike> let's see who's vaguely leftist
04:45:02 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunnar_Myrdal is cool and he wrote about race in the US for some reason
04:45:34 <Bike> or you could just read graeber and be dumb maybe i dunno
04:46:07 <Fiora> kmc: http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/ you might enjoy this
04:46:17 <kmc> haha yes i do
04:47:31 <Bike> "It would be easy to forget that the problem even exists, when our headlines are constantly splashed with the violence in Fiji, the authoritarian crackdown in Somalia and the still-unstable democratic transition in Mexico." nailed it
04:47:45 <shachaf> Ugh, I seem to be sick or something again.
04:47:49 <shachaf> It's been happening every month.
04:48:18 <elliott> Bike: um it's actually "It would be easy to forget that the problem even exists, when our headlines are constantly splashed with the violence in Greece, the authoritarian crackdown in Comoros and the still-unstable democratic transition in Ghana."
04:48:34 <Bike> "When I visited Singapore in 2000, Mbantu, the cabbie who drove me from the airport," i think this adds to the experience really
04:48:41 <Bike> I have actually never heard of Comoros.
04:49:08 <Bike> oh it's one of those island states in the indian ocean
04:49:27 <kmc> i used to be able to name all the countries of the world
04:49:43 <Fiora> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDtdQ8bTvRc with or without this?
04:50:00 <Fiora> (bike and I are literally the same person I swear)
04:50:27 <kmc> http://www.sporcle.com/games/g/world
04:50:50 <Bike> hm comoros has a territory dispute with frane
04:51:38 <kmc> "The Comoros is the only state to be a member of all of the following: the African Union, Francophonie, Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, Arab League... and the Indian Ocean Commission"
04:51:43 <kmc> and yes apparently it's The Comoros
04:52:58 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tree_map_export_2009_Comoros.jpeg
04:53:50 <Bike> for... breaking up? like scrap?
04:53:53 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's been happening every month. <-- you're actually female hth
04:54:29 <Fiora> Bike: don't a lot of poorer nations get dumped with the job of shipbreaking nowadays?
04:54:54 <Bike> i have no idea, i mean, it makes sense but i've never heard of it
04:55:04 <Bike> in fact i've never even heard of "shipbreaking"
04:55:49 <Fiora> "Today, most ship breaking yards are in developing countries, with the largest yards at Gadani in Pakistan, Alang in India, Chittagong in Bangladesh and Aliağa in Turkey. This is due to lower labor costs and less stringent environmental regulations dealing with the disposal of lead paint and other toxic substances. "
04:56:37 <Bike> christ i thought pakistan was landlocked fuck me
04:57:28 <Fiora> it's like electronics recycling
04:57:40 <Bike> it's messy and go away but also profitable?
04:57:49 <Fiora> (translation: a bunch of underpaid third world workers poisoning themselves to take apart your iphones)
04:58:19 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Agbogbloshie.JPG
04:58:29 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agbogbloshie
04:58:48 <Bike> Oh, wasn't that in some magazine?
04:59:02 <elliott> should i go to the comoros
04:59:36 <elliott> man I love ships. that break.
04:59:36 <Bike> Due to its harsh living conditions and rampant crime, the area is nicknamed "Sodom and Gomorrah".
05:00:01 <pikhq> Yaaaay, people getting paid cents each day to take apart crap that's probably worth more than they'll make this year.
05:00:58 <Bike> we should tweet about it
05:09:46 <elliott> oerjan: why are we still awake
05:10:52 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Apr 4 07:10:51 2013
05:10:58 <lambdabot> Local time for elliott is Thu Apr 4 06:10:57 2013
05:11:16 <shachaf> Because you slept all night and woke up 20 minutes ago?
05:11:17 <Bike> It's early in the morning! Time to get out and plow!
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05:16:00 <btiffin> COBOL paragraph, compiles links and go's, will soon be part of frogSort in cbrain:
05:16:18 <btiffin> ....call "fork" returning opinion end-call
05:16:30 <btiffin> ....if respect is zero then
05:17:01 <btiffin> ........subtract 1 from shared-value
05:17:15 <btiffin> ........if not fair then go forkyourself.
05:17:37 <Bike> so you didn't answer my question before
05:17:44 <Bike> does cobol have automatic memory management or what
05:17:54 <btiffin> Oh, I thought you were still taunting. ;-)
05:18:06 <Bike> no i'm actually curious.
05:18:18 <btiffin> OpenCOBOL does, with BASED. Normal WORKING-STORAGE section is not, it's fixed.
05:18:44 <Bike> based, is that like a stack or
05:19:08 <Bike> oh boy i love malloc
05:19:10 <btiffin> But ANY LENGTH is still in draft
05:19:31 <btiffin> so var-1 PIC X(65535) BASED.
05:19:32 <kmc> we may be approaching Peak COBOL
05:19:44 <btiffin> takes up no storage, but you need to set a max.
05:20:43 <btiffin> Linkage section allows for externals to do the management
05:22:51 <btiffin> kmc: I have a lot of fun with OpenCOBOL. COBOL in C space, which for all intensive purposes is the internet, is a lot of fun. (Intents and, yeah, yeah, this is intense) ;-)
05:26:05 <Bike> so why should i use cobol rather than let's say snobol, what does cobol bring to the soda and cold pizza covered table
05:27:29 <btiffin> Umm, use them both. I'm writing up a sample linking Unicon.
05:28:14 <Bike> ok like why add cobol to my repertoire of mad coding music then. i just, it's hard for me to register that somebody could /enjoy/ cobol, it's the stereotypical boring... uh... thing.
05:29:22 <btiffin> There is a vast pile of custom, closed COBOL. All the talk is rewrites and modernization. Nah, let them keep COBOL and attach (directly embedding) all the modern they want.
05:29:53 <Bike> well i can appreciate that, but you said you didn't do this for business, you just like openCOBOL?
05:30:18 <btiffin> Yep. COBOL reads the beauty
05:30:19 <Bike> so like, presumably you're writing new code that's mostly "standalone", not maintaining an existing system?
05:30:40 <btiffin> I'm actually just the fan boy writing prototypes and documentation.
05:31:29 <btiffin> But most of the paid work would come from existent source code (which, may not read beautifully of course)
05:32:08 <btiffin> Last time I got paid to sling COBOL was umm, 83, 4?
05:40:21 <oerjan> ...someone here is older than me?
05:41:01 <oerjan> elliott: THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
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05:43:40 <btiffin> Nearing 50, this summer. Fan of bf, (and as old guy, I'm sad about Urban's choice of name. I can't talk to my mom about bf, without calling it bffff), but now with pbrain, I can reference pbrain and well, yay, cbrain.
05:44:10 <Bike> brainmomi'mgay
05:44:59 * Fiora feels slightly less old
05:45:27 <oerjan> don't tell me Fiora is also older than me.
05:46:24 <shachaf> Fiora is 2013 years old hth
05:47:04 <btiffin> I grew up as a commercial fisherman, so cuss'es are a thing of beauty. My old man could rhyme off 30 in a row when nets got tangled Sweet. But, not in front of the mom. ;-)
05:48:25 <btiffin> She came out a few times, but ended up seasick just about every run.
05:50:42 <btiffin> Anyone ever hear about micromorts?
05:50:58 <Bike> the little death?
05:51:16 <btiffin> The chance per million of kakking doing a particular thing?
05:51:32 <oerjan> curiously, "mort" is a norwegian word for baby fish
05:51:39 <btiffin> Like 1 million people got drunk yesterday, 70 didn't make it. 70 micromorts
05:51:39 <Bike> I thought it was an orgasm.
05:51:44 <oerjan> so i wasn't quite sure whether you had changed the subject
05:51:49 <coppro> Bike: fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration
05:51:51 <Bike> I don't know "kakking" either.
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05:52:05 <btiffin> Writing code at a desk is sub-one micromort.
05:52:27 <Bike> coppro: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_petite_mort Inject some class into your vocabulary!
05:52:32 <Bike> By class I mean sex jokes
05:52:43 <kmc> french sex jokes are way classy
05:53:23 <btiffin> Fishing is 1600 ish, I get to go around and yell, Fished commercially, and LIVED. ;-) Now, with COBOL, no yelling. Just Dilbert nerd dances.
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05:54:33 <btiffin> Bike: sorry, kakking is dropping dead, on the spot.
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05:59:28 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i've managed to mention that both my grandfathers were fishermen. afaik neither died of it.
05:59:42 <oerjan> although i had an uncle who drowned.
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06:00:58 <oerjan> i don't think he was commercial fisherman though.
06:01:09 <btiffin> I traded a shift to go ashore on a night that sank our boat and drowned my dad's friends.
06:01:50 <btiffin> Fished commercially, and LIVED.
06:05:16 <btiffin> then wrote sad code and died a little inside, and LIVED.
06:08:17 <btiffin> Bike, not sure how long I'll hang out in esoland, but if you get to know me, I'm a fan of the lame. Lame is just grand. :-) Lamer the better.
06:08:34 <btiffin> What did Batman say to Robin, JUST before they got in the car?
06:08:53 <Bike> do you mean like, dorky? because "lame" just makes me think of physical injuries, especially in the context of barely not drowning
06:09:34 <btiffin> Yeah, dorky, kinda. Lame as in "that's just lame"
06:11:01 <btiffin> Why do sea gulls fly over seas? If they flew over bays, they'd be bagels.
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10:46:06 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
10:55:16 <Taneb> Sgeo, you're a bit slow
10:55:29 <Taneb> I thought that was hours ago
10:55:32 <Sgeo> I was a bit asleep
10:56:00 <Deewiant> Isn't there a timestamp for the update you could also post
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11:11:41 <Taneb> Also, last night I think the Chinese Graphics Card problem came back
11:11:50 <Taneb> And then I had a bunch of nightmares
11:11:56 <Taneb> So I may be getting confused
11:12:49 <ais523_> I spent all night (after I woke up) working on my javascript database
11:13:03 <ais523_> well, it's currently written in Perl, I'm planning to translate the read end of it into JS once it's working
11:13:14 <ais523_> implementing databases is fun, really
11:13:27 <Taneb> So fun edwardk did it twice
11:13:41 <ais523_> I invented a new user interface/API for them which is more limited than SQL, but also much easier to use in the situations where it works
11:14:49 <ais523_> basically you just say which fields of which tables you care about, and it works out an appropriate sequence of joins, or complains and asks for more precision if there's more than one plausible way to do it
11:15:09 <ais523_> the main limitation is that so far it doesn't handle many-to-many relationships
11:16:46 <ais523_> (it doesn't produce the wrong answer, it just refuses to try)
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11:32:16 <fizzie> I have "?"s in the names of about one quarter of my course participants in this assignment grading table, due to not being able to get the list of registered people (it's in The System somewhere, and I don't have the privileges for that), and having to decipher them out of their handwritten answers.
11:32:46 <fizzie> At least in the case of Finnish name there's usually enough context; but some of these others I really can't guess.
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11:42:30 <ais523_> fizzie: we mostly got round the problem at this university by giving everyone an arbitrary number, and asking them to use them on submissions
11:42:41 <ais523_> (and, often, to leave their actual name off, so that they can be marked pseudo-anonymously)
11:43:02 <ais523_> it's harder to screw up a 7-digit number so badly that it can't be read, than a name
11:43:36 <ais523_> people often put in extra effort to write it legibly because they know they won't get any marks if it's wrong because nobody will be able to figure out whose submission it is
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11:47:00 <fizzie> ais523_: We use the student number too, and there's an official rule of never publishing a list with both names and student numbers on them.
11:47:20 <Deewiant> Which is sometimes followed and sometimes not
11:47:23 <ais523_> I'm not sure if we have that rule or not
11:47:29 <ais523_> people try to avoid it, but sometimes it's unavoidable
11:47:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Sometimes it's a list of student numbers only, but sorted according to name.
11:47:58 <fizzie> (That's the best, since you kind of have to do a linear search for your number.)
11:48:40 <fizzie> I've figured out a couple of student numbers by taking the intersection of exam grade lists out of exams I've known the person to attend.
11:49:37 <ais523_> oh, in my case I have a list of student number/name correspondences, because I need it for admin tasks (like working out who isn't submitting exercises), but I'm meant to keep it secret
11:49:58 <ais523_> but there are interfaces via which you can give a name and get a number back, or vice versa, scattered around the computer system
11:50:08 <ais523_> with various degrees of access control
11:50:11 <fizzie> I used to get that list too, but just emailed by a guy with the right sort of access to The System.
11:50:24 <ais523_> yeah, same here, emailed by someone with higher access
11:50:38 <ais523_> one of my favourite boundaries in the system is that you used to be able to email an ID number
11:50:46 <ais523_> which isn't obviously exploitable, but is interesting
11:50:51 <ais523_> I'm not sure if that still works
11:51:39 <fizzie> Also, one of the earlier The Systems had a fault where you could type an ID number in the "people search" field, and it'd return details of the corresponding person, even if it doesn't show the ID number field in the results.
11:51:46 <fizzie> (That one was obviously exploitable.)
11:52:50 <fizzie> Well, now. Here's one submission with no name or student number at all.
11:54:10 <fizzie> And the one right next to it is missing the third digit of the six-digit ID (confirmed by matching with name). This is some sort of an unlucky round.
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12:15:51 <fizzie> Heh, that's funny. If you type the word "attach" in an email in Thunderbird, it'll put up a notice banner reminding you that you might possibly have wanted to attach a file or something.
12:16:21 <fizzie> I've sent my own share of "please see attached file" + "whoops, I mean, *here's* the file" email pairs, so I suppose that's a good idea.
12:16:49 <fizzie> "Sending of message failed. The Kerberos/GSSAPI ticket was not accepted by the SMTP server mail.aalto.fi. Please check that you are logged in to the Kerberos/GSSAPI realm."
12:16:52 <fizzie> Well, that's less good.
12:17:06 <Taneb> Why am I thinking of toastie makers
12:17:12 <Taneb> Or possibly waffle irons
12:17:21 <Taneb> Something about my dreams last night...
12:17:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: And you can view/edit the list of keywords causing that banner in Preferences/Options -> Composition -> General -> Keywords
12:18:03 <Taneb> Anyway, we've got a new router, so I may brb
12:21:32 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, that would mean we'd have a really crappy toaster
12:22:32 <fizzie> But it would then run NetBSD!
12:23:20 <Taneb> But my dream also had me lose my shoes!
12:23:31 <Taneb> And look for them on the balcony of my school's main hall!
12:23:58 <Taneb> My school's main hall doesn't have a balcony!
12:24:03 <Taneb> Any, now I must go
12:24:19 <Taneb> My home planet needs me
12:28:06 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: you must build a balcony for your school so that you can look for your shoes on it when you lose them!
12:29:16 <fizzie> "2/3 = 0.75" (random quote from one of the submissions).
12:29:29 <fizzie> It's correct up until the 2/3, and the "= 0.75" is the very last thing in it.
12:30:03 <fizzie> It's the kind of thing that can happen.
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13:03:39 <ais523> oh, bleh, wiki spam again
13:03:45 <ais523> despite being fast to clean up, it's still annoying to have to do so
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13:06:21 <mroman> I should reboot my bot.
13:06:45 <ais523> elliott: "Warning: This filter was automatically disabled as a safety measure. It reached the limit of matching more than 5.00% of actions."
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13:09:19 <Koen_> oklofok: do you have other games like your counting dots thingy?
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13:14:56 <ais523> anyway, basically MediaWiki decided that there were sufficient amounts of spam being caught by the filter, that it should disable the filter because it must be interfering with real editors by mistake
13:15:34 <ais523> also, it's now impossible to create a page on Esolang with a <br> tag and no newlines; there's no penalty for trying, it's just that the spambots don't seem to understand newlines
13:15:44 <ais523> so this should shut them down altogether until someone changes their framework
13:25:20 <boily> what if a spambotter spies on this channel?
13:34:28 <boily> hmm... there's a flurry of idlers here. maybe they're all bots?
13:36:37 <ais523> boily: the details of what exactly you aren't allowed to do are public
13:36:47 <ais523> I could hide them, but if I did, I wouldn't tell the channel about them
13:36:58 <ais523> and it's a really easy restriction to figure out by experiment
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14:11:28 <fizzie> Every time there are network problems, there's the chance for some sort of an amazing support experience from the ISP.
14:11:46 <fizzie> This time the problem reporting form just said "this service is temporarily out of order, try again later".
14:12:28 <fizzie> They have an IM-over-the-browser kind of customer contact thing, but that one does not accept fault reports.
14:12:53 <fizzie> Would've'd to SPEAK with ANOTHER HUMAN. How unhygienic.
14:13:00 <fizzie> (Fortunately, it fixed itself.)
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14:17:52 <fizzie> fungot: Are YOU responsible for the wikispam?
14:17:52 <fungot> fizzie: the variable file is not very fast". :) anyways, i mean syntax fnord etc.
14:21:53 <fungot> FireFly: it's " swap the comma and period" followed by another " a", a unicode local, and you output a newline, your interpreter might not show an ui :p there)
14:26:12 <boily> fungot: what is a unicode local?
14:26:13 <fungot> boily: does that allows to extend vim with scheme the implementation figures that out itself. technology is behind all 3 of those. at first the way dataflow folks play with it yourself.
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15:42:01 <Taneb> I wonder if learning OpenGL for C will help me learn it for Haskell enough for it to be worth it for the better-maintained and fuller tutorials?
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15:44:38 <boily> Taneb: yes. you can also learn it for C++/Java, as they're only thin wrappers with the same function names.
15:44:40 <kmc> the Haskell OpenGL library I used is a pretty low level mapping of the C API
15:45:00 <Taneb> Wow, this new router is great
15:45:22 <boily> just be careful of the version of OpenGL you chose to learn, as there are multiple major semantic changes and tools and ways of doing things between them.
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15:45:39 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, nah, we've already got a toaster, don't need a new one
15:45:52 -!- boily has changed nick to new_toaster.
15:46:34 <new_toaster> (very important when you live in montréal or NYC)
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15:47:35 * ThatOtherPerson slices a bagel in half and puts the slices into new_toaster, then pushes down the thingamabob and presses the bagel button
15:48:07 <ThatOtherPerson> new_toaster: Do you prefer Montral-style bagels or New York-style bagels?
15:49:17 <Taneb> Haskell is OpenGL 2.1, right?
15:49:24 <ais523> I'd say that with OpenGL, the old fixed function pipeline is an interesting introduction but shouldn't be used for actual code
15:56:27 <new_toaster> ThatOtherPerson: Montréal style, definitely. Freshly made in the morning, with sesamee seeds.
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16:02:17 <fizzie> What's the difference?
16:02:33 <fizzie> ("The bagel button". Crazy.)
16:03:20 <ThatOtherPerson> fizzie: Montreal-style bagels are thinner, chewier, and slightly sweeter
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16:04:58 <fizzie> Hrm. I suppose I don't really have a point of reference here.
16:07:00 <fizzie> Yes, several times, but I don't know which kind of they were, since it has all happened in Finland.
16:07:08 <fizzie> If I give you a photo, can you tell from it what kind it is?
16:07:20 <fizzie> http://arnolds.fi/bagels_en <- I've eaten those things.
16:07:37 <fizzie> Okay, so it mentions New York in the description.
16:08:12 <ThatOtherPerson> except they probably were in Finland before they were in New York...
16:08:36 <fizzie> Then there's the ones I've eaten at home, I think they're thinner. At least the hole's bigger.
16:10:00 <fizzie> http://www.foodfactory.fi/dennisBagelit.php are the ones that they sell at our local grocery store.
16:11:21 <fizzie> Hey, the Wikipedia "Bagel" page lists the Finnish vesirinkeli. We used to buy a giant pile of those from the neighbour bakery when visiting the small town where my parents are from.
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16:52:49 <elliott> ais523: heh, becauset here is too much spam?
16:55:19 <ais523> I turned it off and on again to reset it
16:55:48 <ais523> anyway, now we have a filter 2 that's prevents edits anywhere if they contain <br> and no newline, only consequence is preventing the edit
16:56:35 <ais523> this should block every spambot edit we've had recently
16:56:53 <ais523> the spambots have been trying various sorts of <br> to get around the filter; I'm reasonably sure there's some sort of human intervention
16:56:56 <elliott> I swear soon I'll upgrade the wiki and add more captchas
16:57:00 <ais523> perhaps some day they'll discover the existence of newlines ;)
16:57:04 <elliott> hopefully we won't even need the filters then
16:57:21 <elliott> ais523: hmm maybe I should look at the server logs
16:57:33 <ais523> elliott: well I have checkuser logs
16:57:40 <elliott> well they could be using another IP
16:57:40 <ais523> I found the human at one point through checkuser
16:57:43 <ais523> and blocked the IP range
16:57:44 <elliott> and not editing themselves or something
16:57:55 <ais523> since then, everything's just been random proxies when I've checked
16:57:56 <elliott> then it would be beneficial to block them from /reading/ the wiki, at the webserver level
16:58:00 <elliott> so it's harder for them to try new strategies
16:58:01 <ais523> the usual cannot-block-stuff
16:58:13 <elliott> (maybe they have a distinctive user agent...)
16:59:07 <ais523> well the person I suspect of being human stopped editing upon the "clicking submit will block you" warning
16:59:21 <ais523> then resumed a little later from a browser that identified as x64 firefox rather than x86 firefox
17:00:07 <kmc> You’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?
17:00:11 <ais523> most likely explanations: they physically changed to a different computer because they thought it would get around the spambot traps (while continuing to use the same username), or they're faking their useragent
17:00:36 <elliott> ais523: I'm baffled as to why, this behaviour does not fit with my mental model of wiki spammers at all
17:00:56 <ais523> it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either
17:00:59 <olsner> kmc: is that the thing that makes your brain melt if you're a bot?
17:01:11 <elliott> which is: basically fully automated, targetting many thousands of wikis all at once, getting other people (without this kind of level of control) to solve CAPTCHAs
17:01:15 <kmc> i thought it was just for detecting bots
17:01:16 <ais523> the most likely thing I can think of is that they're trying to spam with very little idea of what they're doing
17:01:26 <elliott> so why would someone who has the ability to change the bot's behaviour be messing around with a wiki that they can surely tell is basically pointless to spam?
17:01:36 <ais523> probably the spammer variant of a script kiddie
17:01:47 <ais523> they have some tools from somewhere and feel really l33t for using them
17:01:55 <ais523> but don't fundamentally understand what they're doing
17:02:00 <elliott> hmm... maybe I should look at the links they're spamming
17:02:10 <elliott> although, I suppose they're links someone else is paying them to spam, most likely
17:02:21 <ais523> and don't, that'd mean they weren't 100% wasting their time
17:03:08 <elliott> ais523: they'll get no meaningful benefit from me looking at the link; I'll copy it so the referer doesn't show
17:03:24 <elliott> and I might get marginal benefit from it w.r.t. not being as confused
17:04:38 <elliott> ais523: anyway, I figure the easiest thing is to block these at registration time
17:05:04 <elliott> if there really is a human getting around each extra prevention one by one, then it shouldn't be too hard to make them get bored if they can't even get accounts registered without a bunch of work
17:05:39 <ais523> we're getting legitimate non-spammy newbies too
17:05:46 <ais523> so don't want to make things so hard for them
17:05:57 <ais523> there's always the INTERCAL CAPTCHA that Claudio Calvelli uses, it's hilarious
17:07:03 <elliott> ais523: so there was a non-proxy IP originally, right?
17:07:10 <elliott> maybe we could report them to their ISP
17:07:34 <ais523> elliott: there are some IPs that have been used multiple times, and also a range that had multiple spambots editing from it
17:07:37 <ais523> look at my blocks on IP ranges
17:08:05 <ais523> well, one range, one single IP
17:10:41 <elliott> ais523: the 113.212.70.170 one is likely to be the spambot's unproxied IP, right?
17:11:03 <ais523> I think the range is their actual IP
17:12:02 <elliott> the one I just quoted is allocated to APNIC, fwiw
17:12:32 <elliott> and the range, some networking company in Vegas I've never heard of
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17:51:35 <tromp_> hiais523. i like your reversible brainfuck. but now you have a challenge
17:52:03 <tromp_> it needs a self interpreter:)
17:52:27 <AnotherTest> tromp_: why don't you write one yourself? Could be real fun
17:52:35 <ais523> tromp_: IIRC it was proven TC
17:55:15 <tromp_> yes, you proved that it's possible in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck#Computational_class
17:55:57 <tromp_> you coulf write a RBF interpreter in BF and then convert that to RBF
17:57:41 <tromp_> but maybe it can be done directly and still be competitive (in size) with existing BF self-interpreters
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20:08:57 <oerjan> <btiffin> Why do sea gulls fly over seas? If they flew over bays, they'd be bagels. <-- i fear this channel may not be big enough for the both of us.
20:10:04 <Fiora> you're upset at having someone trying to outpun you? :3
20:10:17 <oerjan> _and_ being older to boot.
20:10:27 <Taneb> btiffin must accept the punishment
20:13:27 <boily> what is this channel's preferred form of punishment? tortue by brainfuck derivative?
20:14:07 -!- augur has joined.
20:14:40 <oerjan> my preferred form of punishment is swatting.
20:16:50 <elliott> boily: there's always brainbricking
20:17:00 <elliott> though some have started to consider that practice barbaric.
20:17:28 <fizzie> boily: A torte *of* brainfuck derivatives.
20:17:42 <Taneb> brainbricking was invented during the Punic wars
20:17:47 <elliott> tortilla of brainfuck derivatives
20:18:03 * oerjan hits FireFly with the saucepan ===\__/
20:18:25 <Taneb> It caused those who suffered it to have a puny intelligence
20:18:38 <elliott> oerjan: can you make a dependently-typed language with good coinduction please?
20:18:56 <Taneb> It was then rediscovered by the punk movement in the 80's
20:19:27 <Taneb> oerjan, you can take a punt
20:19:32 <oerjan> Taneb: it was written on stone tablets found in punjab
20:19:43 * FireFly pours hot tea on oerjan C(__)`
20:20:01 <FireFly> (that is supposed to be a teapot)
20:20:23 <elliott> oerjan: I just want to write semantics with the partiality monad!
20:20:39 <Taneb> oerjan, my plot has been unspun!
20:20:40 <shachaf> elliott: "semantics"? what are you, conal?
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20:22:39 <oerjan> Taneb: i deciphered it with a lyapunov function
20:23:17 * boily wetly slaps oerjan with a damp and humid metasepia just to see what happens (FOR SCIENCE!)
20:24:38 <Taneb> ...I'm going to stop. I happun to think this has gone to far.
20:27:24 <oerjan> well it did now, when you started opun fake spellings
20:27:54 <Fiora> I think you're doing this on porpoise
20:28:13 <Fiora> even if it's just for the halibut, these puns are pretty crappie
20:28:43 <boily> I can't salmon the force to face this puns.
20:29:10 <boily> see, even my grammar is out of tuna. I need to go back to school.
20:30:27 <Fiora> it might be better if I clam up but I'm a bit shellfish when it comes to fintastic puns
20:30:27 <oerjan> hey wiktionary actually has a picture on the crappie page
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20:35:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, try harder. That was carp.
20:35:42 <boily> if you don't like them, you can skipper them.
20:36:24 <oerjan> what kind of language is this i'm herring
20:37:19 <Taneb> It's somewhat angler-saxon
20:37:45 <boily> eel be damned, that's what I was going to sail.
20:37:58 <oerjan> Taneb: i think we're trawling the bottom here
20:38:21 <Fiora> water you even saying, these puns are reely crayative
20:38:36 <boily> we can always fit moray of them.
20:39:13 <oerjan> no, i _really_ think this topic is floundering
20:40:38 <Fiora> i shrimply refuse to bereef it
20:41:20 <oerjan> this lobster meaning a page ago
20:42:43 <Fiora> i think it still has lobsta meaning
20:43:55 <oerjan> oh well at least we're krilling some time
20:44:02 <boily> ah, it's fin to sea this channel filled to the bream with bad puns.
20:44:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how these conversations always just end up being about how awful puns are starfish
20:47:03 <boily> now that we reached the pike of the subject, could someone quote the loach of it for posterity?
20:48:06 * Bike knocks over a table
20:48:09 * oerjan is suspicious of Phantom_Hoover's puns, they look fishy in the wrong way
20:48:22 <Bike> WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING YOU MOTHERFUCKERS
20:48:34 <boily> it happened once. leave it abalone once it's finished.
20:48:57 <Taneb> ...you can drink SHOTS of beer?
20:49:09 <oerjan> Taneb: yeah that's cannonical
20:49:16 <Phantom_Hoover> would you triplefin blenny think of Bike, he's suffering
20:49:33 <Bike> triplefin blenny what the FUCK
20:49:35 <Taneb> Alcohol has more to offer me than I thought
20:49:38 <pikhq> Shots of beer? What proof are you dealing with?
20:49:40 <boily> a woman needs a man like a bike needs a fish?
20:49:47 <Bike> those aren't even words
20:49:53 <oerjan> i haven't got a single of Phantom_Hoover's puns. is anyone sure they're real?
20:50:14 <oerjan> ok i guess i get the mackerel one
20:50:51 <Bike> you're just putting fish words in they don't evne make sense
20:51:08 <elliott> well Phantom_Hoover's puns are making me laugh the most
20:51:14 * Bike throws the table at Phantom_Hoover
20:51:14 <Phantom_Hoover> thus deadlocking the pun thread while everyone else frantically tries to work it out
20:52:14 <elliott> in fact i am still laughing
20:52:34 <oerjan> triplefin blenny is probably valid cockney for something.
20:52:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover is blatantly the most cockney person here
20:54:08 <Bike> no it's not nothing is fairly conception there is no conception and NOTHING IS FAIR
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20:54:39 <oerjan> surprising ais523 didn't quit earlier
20:57:42 <Taneb> Nothing is conception and everything is permitted
20:58:19 <metasepia> conception definition: the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both.
20:58:31 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (GHC.Show.Show a0)
20:58:31 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M4607643867718357546.show_M4607643867718357546'
20:58:31 <metasepia> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
20:58:31 <metasepia> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
20:58:31 <metasepia> Note: there are several potential instances:
20:58:31 <metasepia> instance GHC.Show.Show GHC.Types.Double
20:58:32 <metasepia> instance GHC.Show.Show GHC.Types.Float
20:58:33 <metasepia> instance (GHC.Real.Integral a, GHC.Show.Show a) =>
20:58:53 <oerjan> boily: ...you need defaulting rules.
20:59:17 <boily> what should I put in this case?
21:00:02 <boily> no can do for now.
21:00:10 <elliott> oh right. the opaque binary.
21:00:22 <elliott> you could make a ghc executable that comes before the real one in $PATH.
21:00:26 <elliott> and adds ExtendedDefaultingRules.
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21:16:02 <oerjan> <tromp_> yes, you proved that it's possible in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck#Computational_class
21:16:11 <oerjan> *GRUMBLE* i did that hth
21:16:37 <Taneb> Rule 1 of #esoteric:
21:16:42 <HackEgo> oerjan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:17:31 <tromp_> sorry oerjan, i cldnt tell from the webpage
21:17:36 <oerjan> Taneb: i felt a little bad when someone else said they'd _almost_ showed emmental TC just after i put up my interpreter
21:18:33 <tromp_> all hail oerjan, completeness-prover-extraordinaire
21:19:49 <oerjan> tromp_: IT'S ALL IN THE PAGE HISTORY
21:19:57 * oerjan maybe should start crediting himself
21:20:19 <tromp_> yeah, i always read the whole history of every wiki page...
21:20:21 <oerjan> but i sort of like that the wiki is neutral speaker
21:20:59 <Bike> Emmental was proven TC by ørjan the eternal, enemy of the darkness
21:21:08 <elliott> oerjan: you can say that the work was done by oerjan
21:21:12 <elliott> maybe they will believe someone else wrote it up
21:21:19 <tromp_> btw, you can remove " Included with permission. " from the Nora primes.
21:22:22 <tromp_> no need for legalese...
21:23:19 <Taneb> tromp_, did you just...
21:23:39 <Taneb> did you just shorten Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
21:23:46 <oerjan> tromp_: well i needed to say it somewhere, maybe the edit summary would have been enough
21:24:25 <oerjan> tromp_: i'm sorry, but this is for your own good...
21:24:52 <tromp_> i hereby donate Nora prime sieve to the public domain
21:25:14 <tromp_> sorry again taneb for my shortening:(
21:25:19 <shachaf> can i be swatted a little bit
21:25:43 * oerjan swats shachaf with the spare --#
21:25:56 <shachaf> I don't get a full -----### ?
21:26:03 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the longest-named esolang I know of
21:26:06 <oerjan> you said "a little bit"
21:26:22 <shachaf> Some of my bathrooms have baths; the rest are restrooms.
21:26:38 <oerjan> Taneb: INTERCAL's official name is longer
21:26:46 <tromp_> i cant even be bothered to write out the full name of BLC...
21:27:09 <Taneb> > length "Compiler Language With No Pronouncable Acronym"
21:27:16 <Taneb> > length "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download"
21:27:28 <tromp_> here's the rule: if you need to cut&paste the name of your language, then it is too long
21:27:42 <Taneb> tromp_, it's not too hard to type it out
21:28:09 <tromp_> if you had, we'd have seen a typo or two:)
21:28:17 <Taneb> Nah, I'm just good
21:28:27 <Bike> real fast nora's hair salon three: shear disaster download
21:28:34 <Taneb> (I actually am typing it out each time)
21:28:40 <FireFly> What kind of esolang is RFNHS3:SDD?
21:28:50 <boily> I think abbreviating Nora into 「リファノヘサスシディダ」 is better.
21:28:56 <Taneb> FireFly, haven't heard of it
21:28:58 <elliott> IMO kick anyone who abbreviates that language
21:29:01 <ion> tromp: I wouldn’t bother to copy and paste that if my hand wasn’t on the mouse already.
21:29:05 <oerjan> shachaf: don't be a loonie
21:29:22 <FireFly> Taneb: okay then, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
21:29:30 <Taneb> FireFly, it's functional
21:29:35 <Bike> elliot's o iso bjeectivel y correct
21:29:54 <oerjan> tromp_: we don't agree with that rule here around these parts.
21:30:16 <oerjan> tromp_: also i _don't_ need to cut&paste itflabtijtslwi.
21:30:30 <pikhq> boily: rihuānohesesusitèītà?
21:30:34 <Taneb> FireFly, basically lambda calculus with a really "nice and readable" syntax
21:31:11 <tromp_> basically a COBOLized lambda calculus
21:31:15 <Bike> pikhq: does japanese use graves now
21:31:26 <pikhq> Bike: If I'm Romanizing it.
21:31:26 <Taneb> Imagine if binary lambda calculus and BIT got married and had a child
21:32:11 <boily> pikhq: the first syllable of each word.
21:32:35 <pikhq> Bike: The string he put out there is impossible to romanize with any other defined romanization scheme.
21:32:57 <pikhq> Bike: Only way to do it would basically be with the random hacks used for Japanese input on keyboards.
21:33:00 <boily> I can't remember if it's ダ or ド for download.
21:33:14 <pikhq> Then it'd be something like "rifanohesesushidelida"
21:33:26 <pikhq> boily: It's ダウンロード, so ダ.
21:33:43 <Bike> imo, make an esolang that does computation through romanizing tangut
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21:36:46 <Bike> but i don't know tangut :(
21:37:27 <oerjan> it takes two to tangut
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21:56:56 <oerjan> although it's still sort of filler
22:01:25 <pikhq> Audio dithering is god damned silly.
22:02:05 -!- atehwa has joined.
22:02:09 <pikhq> The simple-but-effective way is to just add low-amplitude white noise.
22:02:28 * oerjan wonders if there's a bot that makes better puns than these
22:03:38 <oerjan> wait, maybe all humans are secretly punbots
22:03:51 <oerjan> fungot, are you a punbot?
22:04:11 <oerjan> mostly fungot is a runawaybot
22:04:26 <oerjan> fizzie: SOMEONE KILLED FUNGOT
22:04:35 <Bike> http://nothinginbiology.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/evo2012bingo.png So what does this sort of thing look like for CS and maths conferences
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22:05:34 <kmc> probably mostly the same
22:05:41 <oerjan> i dunno, but i would put "is easily seen" and "obvious" in any math ones
22:05:56 <Bike> yeah i figured you could switch out "Darwin (1859)" for "trivial"
22:06:14 <elliott> haha do people actually cite darwin like that
22:06:20 <kmc> programmers like to say something is "trivial" when it will require 250 hours of engineering effort but the basic idea is simple
22:06:32 <Bike> elliott: I've seen it. It's hilarious.
22:07:01 <elliott> just in case anyone's reading the latest evolution papers and wants to find out about this "darwin" guy's work
22:07:13 <Bike> Someday I'm going to cite Darwin (1881) and blow everybody's fucking mind
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22:07:34 <elliott> darwin did his most influential computer science work in 1881
22:07:51 <Bike> 1881 is when he wrote his book on worm shit
22:07:53 <kmc> The Formation of Vegetable Mould through the Action of Worms would be a good name for an album
22:08:06 <kmc> it's sort of like The Mysterious Production of Eggs
22:08:06 <elliott> that would actually be a terrible name for an album
22:08:15 <doesthiswork> hah, I knew my biology major was good for something
22:08:25 <kmc> oh sorry it's "The Formation of Vegetable Mould through the Action of Worms, with Observations on their Habits"
22:08:29 <elliott> doesthiswork: don't try and comfort Bike
22:08:35 <elliott> he needs to know how futile it is
22:08:35 <Bike> interestingly Formation of Vegetable Moulds is actually very interesting
22:08:48 <Bike> not what you'd expect from a book about which direction worms pull leaves into their burrows
22:08:55 <oerjan> oh she was already dead then
22:08:56 <elliott> the only thing more useless than a biology degree is a speech recognition researcher
22:09:14 <Bike> oerjan: also wasn't lovelace's thing like a translation
22:09:23 <Koen_> oerjan: how's my timing today, uh?
22:09:27 <Bike> or a ltter, i forget
22:09:29 <elliott> doesthiswork: I hope they make you feel better about yourself
22:09:59 <kmc> http://achewood.com/index.php?date=01312010
22:10:06 <Koen_> what's a speech recognition researcher?
22:10:31 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Earthworm_klitellum_copulation_beentree.jpg hot
22:10:40 <Fiora> elliott: but I like trying to comfort bike
22:10:45 * Koen_ was imagining some guy analyzing speeches in a way similar to how some people analyze handwriting
22:10:58 <elliott> Fiora: ok well you can tell him stories about speech recognition. that is acceptable
22:11:03 <Bike> kmc: fun fact darwin's book on emotions was one of the first books to include photographs http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/engage_academics/impact/narratives/images/eema4.jpg
22:11:05 <doesthiswork> the ladies love a man you knows that much about oral production
22:11:24 <kmc> Bike: hahahaha
22:11:44 <kmc> that's him?
22:12:00 <kmc> just some guy who also has a prodigious beard
22:12:10 <Bike> this is him: http://images.arcadja.com/charles_darwin-the_expression_of_the_emotions_in_man~OMd4b300~10001_20071014_15400_4646.jpg
22:12:18 <Bike> best plate in history imo
22:12:55 <doesthiswork> troll face is one of the primative primate signals
22:13:00 <elliott> picture of charles darwin: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Oscar_Wilde_portrait.jpg/220px-Oscar_Wilde_portrait.jpg
22:13:35 <Bike> kmc: i'm pretty disappointed that those terms aren't actually composting things.
22:13:50 <kmc> are you a person who knows about compost
22:14:05 <Bike> no i just wanted "open Tanoku matrix" to be real
22:17:35 <Bike> "I have just received such a Box full from Mr Bateman with the astounding Angræcum sesquipedalia with a nectary a foot long— Good Heavens what insect can suck it" thinking i need to read darwin's letters
22:18:01 <kmc> did you see http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/10/18/163181524/charles-darwin-and-the-terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-day
22:18:44 <Bike> btw the answer to his question was apparently http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NHM_Xanthopan_morgani.jpg which is horrifying
22:19:24 <kmc> did darwin do any mushroom biology
22:20:19 <kmc> fungi are so weird, i think they're the least well studied kingdom by far
22:20:20 <Bike> Let's see... no I think he mostly did botany, sucks.
22:20:42 <Bike> I guess I can't blame him. Like, Origin of Species was literally written before the germ theory of disease, what the fuck.
22:24:25 <pikhq> Given how little was known at the time, Darwin was really quite impressive.
22:25:19 <Bike> Even without having any idea of microbiology, he mentioned the possibility of parasitic worms and fungi evolving, like wow dude.
22:25:39 <doesthiswork> that's what 50 years of makeing sure it makes sense does for you
22:26:16 <pikhq> Yup. He figured it out just by inferring very well.
22:30:36 <zzo38> Yes, he was pretty good at it. Now that we actually have such science, though, our science improved to be better than Darwin's stuff.
22:30:37 <lambdabot> zzo38: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
22:30:41 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1d 1h 26m 47s ago: are you into alchemy
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22:32:00 <Bike> Well, yeah, Darwin's theory of how heredity actually worked is pretty fucking funny
22:32:59 <zzo38> Darwin certainly did make a lot of mistakes, though; but, so do a lot of people.
22:33:35 <zzo38> Now I wrote about a #% command in Esoteric Verilog to specify faulty components which have a given probability to give the correct answer instead of always working correctly.
22:34:23 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> fungi are so weird, i think they're the least well studied kingdom by far
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22:35:10 <hagb4rdoux> high there! isn't that kalbrenners most awesome track? just enjoyous..(you may know one of the brothers - both music makers, bu also bot solo-artist
22:35:17 <hagb4rdoux> .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2hCo6X-1YcY#t=0s)
22:35:20 <hagb4rdoux> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2hCo6X-1YcY#t=0s
22:35:23 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: yeah maybe
22:35:32 <kmc> I sort of meant relative to complexity and variety
22:35:34 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: that's not really a kingdom so much as a miscellaneous dump :/
22:37:03 * hagb4rdoux like died afte typing ít, leaving some riddles for futures archeologists
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22:37:17 <fizzie> fungot: Try to stay alive there.
22:37:17 <fungot> fizzie: ( twb: except " initialization" is fnord
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22:38:25 <hagb4rd> -- well that would be fair: the movie "berlin calling" .. if you've seen it you know him
22:39:19 <hagb4rd> he kinda played himself, after just consulting the regisseur they just did by one take :P
22:42:12 <hagb4rd> damn! how can i be sooo wrong? heres the correct link
22:42:13 <hagb4rd> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2hCo6X-1YcY#t=720s
22:45:30 <zzo38> I read in some book about a experiment to distinguish many-worlds from Copenhagen. To me, the experiment described seems impossible.
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22:45:52 <zzo38> (Other than that the experiment looks OK, though.)
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22:48:21 <zzo38> I do not have that book with me right now, and I do not entirely remember, but it involves making the experiment entirely reversing itself and everything involved; that also includes whoever did the experiment, and if he gives the result to someone then it must involve them too; if he write it or put in the computer, it involves that paper/computer too, etc
22:49:03 <Bike> Sounds tractable
22:52:24 <oerjan> so basically a quantum erasure experiment taken to macroscopic level?
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23:28:19 <Sgeo> I broke the build :(
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23:31:07 <kmc> don't break the build
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23:31:35 <kmc> Sgeo: does your company have a funny hat or a cardboard cutout of justin bieber or a vat of acid or other such zany tradition for punishing people who break the build
23:32:02 <kmc> "Fools! You kill only a man."
23:32:09 <monqy> did sgeo break the build
23:32:54 <shachaf> we've all broken the build in our time
23:33:00 <Sgeo> There was an email sent to several people about it. It's kind of embarrassing. Especially after my boss said the prior day to just make sure it builds, and commit it.
23:33:29 <shachaf> oerjan: imo make this channel +c
23:33:30 <kmc> shachaf: uh I use dynamic langugaes, there is no build to break, that's why they are better
23:34:12 <elliott> Sgeo: so whats the story behind committing & pushing this commit without checking it builds
23:34:24 <Bike> Anyone ever heard of someone losing their doctorate before?
23:35:00 <kmc> for cheating
23:35:09 <Sgeo> It built and ran fine on my machine. But running it uses the 'local' profile, which I guess whatever automated process is used for checking that revisions build doesn't, or something
23:35:25 <Bike> like after actually getting it
23:35:33 <Bike> i'd never heard of it before
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23:35:50 <Sgeo> (Well, I guess it technically built fine but didn't run)
23:35:51 <oerjan> plagiarism can make that happen
23:35:56 <Bike> also «A German professor who claims to have developed “a self-consistent field theory which is used to derive at all known interactions of the potential vortex” will have at least two papers retracted, thanks to the scrutiny of a concerned economist» nooooo vortices
23:36:05 <Bike> oerjan: yeah that's what happened in the case i was looking at
23:36:12 <kmc> economists ruin everything, am i right
23:36:20 <Bike> but according to random internet person, "Pretty sure people have been hanged for much less than it takes for someone to lose their PhD"
23:36:33 <oerjan> kmc: well they have the theory of ruin, they should be good at it
23:36:55 <Bike> To give you a glimpse of this: According to this paper, magnetic “scalar waves” (an invention of Meyl unknown in temporary physics) emanate from the DNA of human cells and bring these cells in resonance with each other, their environment, and other human beings. This, according to Meyl, explains not only epigenetics, but also the workings of telepathy, telekinesis, and the human “aura”. Moreover, it reveals why love will never be measu
23:36:55 <Sgeo> Incidentally, I am now convinced that, whatever the merits or lack thereof of dynamic typing, the stupidity of dynamic typing PEOPLE makes it suck
23:37:50 <kmc> Sgeo: anyone who's committed enough to dynamic typing to be a "dynamic typing person" might be dumb yeah
23:37:55 <kmc> and likewise for "static typing person"
23:38:02 <kmc> but plenty of smart people use dynamic languages
23:38:05 <Gregor> Bike: PhDs aren't revoked. It just isn't done. If that idiot Behe still has a PhD, no one can ever lose one.
23:38:26 <Bike> Gregor: this person gave his up semi-voluntarily so I was wondering about it.
23:38:32 <monqy> i misread Behe as Bike at first
23:38:34 * Sgeo was more referring to this tendency to think it's a good idea to make clients check what type something is
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23:38:51 <Sgeo> As in, APIs that return a collection unless there would be one item in the collection, in which case it returns the item
23:38:54 <Sgeo> That sort of thing
23:38:54 <Bike> "Michael J. Behe (pron.: /ˈbiːhiː/ bee-hee; born January 18, 1952) is an American biochemist, author, and intelligent design advocate."
23:39:06 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah that's bad
23:39:16 <kmc> a lot of people who use dynamic languages will agree that is bad
23:40:17 <Gregor> Bike: That last bit is the relevant part.
23:40:32 <Bike> Gregor: so i gathered
23:40:33 <Bike> «We’ve asked Meyl — who sells various equipment, including a 3,600-euro device that allows users to “construct an energy transmission line according to Tesla” — for comment and will update with anything we learn.»
23:40:49 <Sgeo> It's in a library at work, it's in Clojure, I think it used to be in Python
23:40:51 <Sgeo> Thatn sort of thing, I mean
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23:41:23 <FireFly> Sgeo: an old version of `splice` from the JS standard library did that >.<
23:42:09 <Bike> "In one case, my adviser’s name ended up on a paper describing work that she had actually forbade me to do. She was going for tenure at the time." i keep reading about academia...
23:42:10 <oerjan> Bike: "it reveals why love will never be measu"
23:42:16 <Bike> oerjan: measured.
23:42:33 <oerjan> darn i was so sure it was some other word
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