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00:16:56 <elliott> Bike_: btw you got cut off at "why love will never be measu"
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00:21:59 <Bike> measu more like ceaușescu
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00:25:44 <elliott> Gregor: that behe guy's page is sad http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/faculty/behe.html
00:25:55 <elliott> Gregor: "My ideas about irreducible complexity and intelligent design are entirely my own. They certainly are not in any sense endorsed by either Lehigh University in general or the Department of Biological Sciences in particular. In fact, most of my colleagues in the Department strongly disagree with them."
00:26:49 <Gregor> elliott: The university itself has a page summarily disavowing all connections with his views.
00:27:09 <Bike> typical liberal censorship
00:27:54 <Bike> "Such a research credit system would have huge benefits for one’s career prospects; and it might encourage more effective collaborations. Moreover, these credits could easily be tracked by scientist or project in a database akin to the Internet Movie Database (IMDB). It could provide an alternative to the ever-so-important citation factors as a means of assessing one’s scientific impact. And maybe one day there will even be an Academy Awar
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00:28:31 <pikhq> How did I not know about this fellow before.
00:28:39 <Bike> ds of Science.
00:28:52 * Bike curses, loads splitlong.pl
00:29:21 <elliott> this behe guy seems more pitiful than anything
00:29:23 <Gregor> elliott: http://www.lehigh.edu/~inbios/news/evolution.htm
00:29:31 <elliott> Behe has testified in several court cases related to intelligent design, including the court case Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District that resulted in a ruling that intelligent design was religious in nature.[2]
00:29:45 <Gregor> elliott: I love its use of scare quotes, btw.
00:29:46 <elliott> can't imagine he is doing very much that furthers the ID cause all in all
00:29:52 <pikhq> How do you know *biochem* and think it's intelligently designed?
00:30:15 <pikhq> I mean damn, biology is the least intelligent thing.
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00:30:38 <elliott> Gregor: man it must be real awkward in that department
00:31:00 <pikhq> Tenure is amazing.
00:31:05 <Bike> so uh none of his papers appear to be very biochem
00:31:18 <Bike> he published one in "God and Design: The Teleological Argument and Modern Science"
00:31:47 <Gregor> Bike: Ever since he became all stupid-ID, he has a total of one peer-reviewed paper in a legitimate journal.
00:31:51 <Bike> dare i look at the paper he put a pdf of up?
00:32:03 <zzo38> Maybe it is what it seems to someone, whether it seems to be intelligently designed to you or completely stupid designed.
00:32:05 <Bike> i'm thinking no
00:32:25 <zzo38> I don't know for sure, of course; this is just a guess.
00:32:47 <Bike> unrelated «A team of scientists can verify that their 5-year long DNA study, currently under peer-review, confirms the existence of a novel hominin hybrid species, commonly called “Bigfoot” or “Sasquatch,” living in North America. Researchers’ extensive DNA sequencing suggests that the legendary Sasquatch is a human relative that arose approximately 15,000 years ago as a hybrid cross of modern Homo sapiens with an unknown ...
00:32:53 <Bike> ... primate species.»
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00:34:06 <zzo38> I read in some book, that it is illegal to kill a Sasquatch in British Columbia. If it exists, it must be rare and therefore endangered species to I suppose it makes sense whether or not it exists, by using this logic.
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00:37:31 <Bike> Actually the person said that governments should immediately recognize sasquatches as indigenous peoples
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00:52:00 <zzo38> Science does not show you whether or not God made up the world and stuff anyways; it only shows you how indirect it is.
00:52:08 <Sgeo> I just realized why the library in question emits objects when there's only 1, rather than an array containing the object... and it's not the fault of Cablevision's wrapper around the library.
00:52:17 <Sgeo> I blame Cablevision's wrapper for a lot of things, but not this.
00:55:09 <oerjan> "During the time of their association, Livingstone urged Sechele to make peace with the uncle who ruled the other half of the Kwêna. Sechele sent his uncle a gift of gunpowder. The uncle was suspicious of the gift and set fire to it. His death in the resulting explosion enabled Sechele to reunite the tribe."
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01:00:39 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/conspiratard/comments/1bo6tm/the_onion_popular_childrens_book_author_reveals/
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01:09:46 <monqy> NO MEME POSTINGS -- except as comments here: The Official Conspiratard Memes Thread
01:09:51 <monqy> sgeo why are you on reddit
01:11:58 <shachaf> sgeo are you on reddit again.......
01:12:35 * Sgeo star-heart-horseshoe reddit
01:13:47 <shachaf> "meme" means a picture with some text on top of it right??
01:14:22 <oerjan> shachaf: oh god you may be right
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01:14:49 <oerjan> it might actually have got that as its common meaning
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01:17:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well maybe we'll get mad scientists as a result (see: the miracle of science comic)
01:18:39 <Bike> the original concept is silly enough that it's hard to feel bad about it being co-opted into whatever the fuck reddit does, except that i don't like reddit more than i don't like dawkins. a dilemma
01:24:29 <kmc> would you say that the word "meme" is............ a meme?!?!?
01:26:31 * Sgeo is actually quite active on Reddit
01:27:03 <Sgeo> (Doctor Who spoilers)
01:27:09 <Sgeo> (If you try to Reddit stalk me)
01:27:49 <kmc> "There are decent Redditors, they just don't understand how much fun they could be having driving the scum from their shores."
01:28:31 <Bike> best spoiler warning ever
01:28:50 <Bike> i'm really quite active on reddit (spoiler warning for John's Bells)
01:29:01 <shachaf> Sgeo: why would i "try to Reddit stalk" you
01:29:09 <shachaf> we know every last detail of your life from this channel
01:29:33 <Sgeo> No you don't. (Although many details not on here are also not on Reddit)
01:29:48 <monqy> name one thing we don't know
01:29:54 <Bike> sgeo, international man of mystery
01:30:27 <Sgeo> I've mentioned my height
01:30:48 <elliott> where he works and information about their proprietary codebase
01:31:39 <shachaf> #esoteric, more like #sgeoconfessional
01:31:41 <Fiora> his height is 1.026 fiorameters
01:31:50 <Bike> that's pretty short.
01:31:57 <shachaf> how many meters are there in a fiorameter
01:32:08 <Fiora> (it's like a smoot or something)
01:32:14 <Phantom_Hoover> i assume everyone in this channel is either physically stunted or scandinavian
01:32:28 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: um, she said fiorameter
01:32:32 <shachaf> fiorametre is something else
01:32:41 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i'm actually a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_aliens
01:32:55 <elliott> who the hell measures height in metres
01:33:03 <elliott> like ok come on imperial system sucks the most
01:33:11 <elliott> but how tall is even a metre?? nobody knows
01:33:14 <shachaf> height is measured in meters not metres hth
01:33:17 <Fiora> um, I mean, I measure in centimeters, but meters/cm are kinda the same thing really?
01:33:26 <Bike> We put forward a practice perspective on absorptive capacity. We illustrate this by network congregating, i.e. repeatedly exchanging face-to-face ideas at interorganizational venues such as conferences, which Intel Corporation attends as a leading member of the semiconductor industry network SEMATECH.
01:33:31 <Fiora> I mean, they're trivially convertible
01:33:46 <shachaf> not when you're using base 12
01:34:01 <elliott> sorry but I live in the UK and we like to have at least one stupid exception to every rule. in this case, the exception is that we measure height in feet & inches even though nobody really uses them for anything else except old people
01:34:10 <Fiora> elliott: and you measure weight
01:34:14 <Bike> elliott: Do you still use km/h for vehicular speeds
01:34:19 <Fiora> what in the I don't even why
01:34:35 <elliott> Bike: we measure long distances in miles
01:34:38 * Bike stones Phantom_Hoover
01:34:43 <elliott> Fiora: well I use kg for weight actually
01:34:45 <shachaf> elliott: wait do you actually use stone
01:34:45 <Bike> elliott: aw man that's way too consistently inconsistent
01:34:51 <elliott> because I draw the line at figuring out how much a stone is
01:34:54 <Bike> kilograms NOW we're talking
01:35:12 <Fiora> I measure my weight in platinum-iridium cylinders
01:35:21 <Bike> kilograms are nice because a kilometer is literally defined as "how massy this one particular object in France is"
01:35:23 <pikhq> I have no fucking clue how much a stone is.
01:35:32 <pikhq> Pounds work, kilograms work, but stone?
01:35:42 <Fiora> I think a stone is like 6.something kg?
01:35:52 <Fiora> oh. 14 pounds. what. why 14.
01:36:03 <Bike> Welcome to imperial measurement!
01:36:08 <Bike> Here's your hogshead of ale
01:36:11 <pikhq> Probably because the king's favorite stone happened to be 14 pounds.
01:36:13 <Fiora> it's like. it has different bases for every conversation factor
01:36:25 <kmc> the reason why british people can never make fun of americans for having dumb units
01:36:36 <Bike> (a hogshead is 238.480942 liters i hope you like alcohol)
01:36:58 <shachaf> imo the best unit of measurement is the bloit
01:37:02 <pikhq> Bike: Only some hogsheads are 238.480942 L.
01:37:29 <shachaf> bloit: the distance the king's favourite pet can run in one hour
01:37:34 <Bike> Only the greatest hogsheads can aspire to be 238.480942 liters
01:37:45 <pikhq> Which hogshead unit to use depends on what you're *measuring*.
01:37:46 <Fiora> I still can't get over how columbus thought he could sail to the East Indies because he miscalculated the earth's circumference...
01:37:52 <Fiora> because he used the wrong "mile" unit
01:38:15 * kmc is 6'3" tall and not scandinavian
01:38:33 <Fiora> are you descended from redwoods
01:38:48 * pikhq is 5'11" tall and part scandinavian
01:39:01 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think my primary datapoint in this was, uh... elliott
01:39:56 <elliott> i think i may have grown a bit
01:39:57 <Fiora> what's medieval height?
01:39:58 <kmc> no i think i'm decended from british people and german people and maybe irish people?
01:40:01 <kmc> "white people"
01:40:16 <shachaf> elliott: i thought you were school isn't school tall
01:40:38 <elliott> and I can't check now because it would ruin the mystery
01:40:39 <Fiora> you... don't know? XD
01:40:41 <kmc> it's time for a heartwarming lesson about how short people and tall people each have unique advantages in life
01:40:43 <Phantom_Hoover> my dad assures me my extended family is all short due to malnutrition
01:40:45 <Fiora> is this like, quantum height?
01:40:52 <Fiora> like, if you don't measure it, it's not decided yet?
01:41:08 <kmc> Fiora: that's my approach to my weight at the moment :X
01:41:21 <Bike> man fiora i forget my fucking age, can't you forgive someone not knowing how much taller than you they are
01:41:36 <kmc> i used to be like 200 lbs, which was pretty much fine, but then chipotle opened next door to work...
01:41:40 <Fiora> Bike: I'm teasing and being silly
01:42:10 <Bike> no but we depreciate
01:42:10 <Fiora> they totally do, you have to replace them after a while right?
01:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> if elliott measures his height he'll just become uncertain about the speed he's growing
01:42:35 <Phantom_Hoover> which carries the risk that he will shrink into nothing
01:42:38 <kmc> i got drunk and fixed my bike the other day
01:42:45 <kmc> still needs 1 more fix though
01:42:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: some say this has already happened
01:44:35 <HackEgo> Bike: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:46:19 <Bike> oh it's a west african language
01:46:39 <elliott> so when will Bike have to be replaced
01:47:23 <shachaf> kmc will get drunk and fix him
01:47:25 <oerjan> `frink 1 barn megaparsec
01:47:30 <Bike> I'm on a rolling replacement schedule. Parts of me will be replaced all the time, even as you're talking to me
01:47:38 <HackEgo> 0.0000030856775813057289536 m^3 (volume)
01:52:36 <oerjan> Bike: do you contain pieces from the ship of theseus?
01:52:54 <HackEgo> 1/1000 (exactly 0.001) m^3 (volume)
01:52:59 <Bike> oerjan: wasn't that destroyed by like a billion years ago
01:53:03 <oerjan> wait _are_ you the ship of theseus
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01:53:20 <Bike> wasn't I destroyed like a billion years ago
01:53:23 <pikhq> Small, but usable.
01:53:32 <oerjan> Bike: possibly. are you being whooshed?
01:53:38 <nooodl_> `frink 1 knot / hertz * newton / pascal
01:53:49 <HackEgo> 463/900 (approx. 0.5144444444444445) m^3 (volume)
01:54:09 <pikhq> `frink 1 mile/gallon
01:54:15 <nooodl_> knotN/HzPa: the best unit??
01:54:18 <HackEgo> 48000000000/112903 (approx. 425143.707430272) m^-2 (unknown unit type)
01:54:58 <HackEgo> 8/3 (approx. 2.6666666666666665)
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02:01:50 <oerjan> "Writing for ArtReview, Sam Jacob noted that Sugababes, one of the most successful all-female British bands of the 21st century,[8] "were formed in 1998 [..] but one by one they left, till by September 2009 none of the founders remained in the band; each had been replaced by another member, just like the planks of Theseus’s boat."[9][10] Echoing Hobbes' discussion on the discarded planks, the three original members reformed in 2011 under the name Mu
02:02:19 <oerjan> Mutya Keisha Siobhan, with the "original" Sugababes still in existence."
02:02:50 <oerjan> it's actually just their first names
02:03:51 <ion> oerjan: mkdir ~/.irssi/scripts && ln -s . ~/.irssi/scripts/autorun && ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong ~/.irssi/scripts/
02:04:09 <ion> oerjan: ln -s /usr/share/irssi/scripts/splitlong.pl ~/.irssi/scripts/
02:04:15 <ion> /script load splitlong
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03:00:17 <kmc> http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/
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03:06:29 <Bike> The myth: A lot of people blame poor collision detection for this problem. That is simply not true. The collision detection in E.T. is perfect. There are no bounding boxes like in more modern games. Collision detection happens at the pixel level. You can't get any better than that. If you fall in to a well, it's because your player character visually overlaps it.
03:07:20 <Fiora> that is... actually really cool O_O
03:07:34 <Fiora> mods like that are always really impressive, though I think my favorite are the pokemon 'mods'
03:07:57 <kmc> what do they do?
03:08:03 <Fiora> there's literally total conversions of pokemon that add entire new regions, tons of new pokemon, non-midi (i.e. recorded) background music
03:08:16 <Fiora> and redo the entire type system and battle logic
03:08:34 <Fiora> and it still works on a GBA
03:08:45 <Bike> oh yeah one of my friends played Pokemon Quartz or whatever it was
03:08:50 <Fiora> like, they even changed the size of the cartridge
03:08:53 <Bike> very weird to see
03:08:55 <pikhq> Oh, good, actually works on real hardware.
03:09:08 <pikhq> The SNES world has stupid shit like people writing patches for ZSNES.
03:09:18 <pikhq> Which is, uh, ludicrous.
03:09:28 <Fiora> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FwJjJlESzY
03:09:30 <Bike> is pikhq secretly the bsnes guy
03:09:34 <Fiora> (example I guess?)
03:09:41 <pikhq> Bike: No, I just am a BSNES fan.
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03:10:25 <elliott> Players looking for additional challenge above game mode 3, but not quite as challenging as game mode 2 (with the nasty FBI Agent) have always felt left out.
03:10:36 <Bike> Fiora: I was half expecting that to go into Touhou danmaku
03:11:02 <Bike> ...are these vocals
03:11:14 <Fiora> the quality isn't that great, but it's a GBA
03:11:17 <Bike> I didn't even know GBA sound could do that
03:11:52 <Fiora> I didn't know either
03:11:54 <Fiora> and then I saw this <.<
03:13:19 <Bike> how long is this song holy hell
03:13:39 <Fiora> they have multiple tracks too, replacing various themes apparently
03:13:46 <Fiora> and they only increased the cart from like 16 to 32MB (?!)
03:14:05 <Fiora> I wonder what they did, like, I doubt the GBA can decode mp3 O_O
03:14:21 <Bike> half their attacks are ohks. i don't remember the elite four being this fast >:
03:14:22 <Fiora> could just be low sample rate/mono I guess
03:14:34 <Bike> well i mean the DS could barely manage vocals right
03:14:45 <Bike> twewy's sound quality was... not so good
03:15:40 <zzo38> All official software for Nintendo DS has to use the official ARM7 codes but homebrew softwares may have their own ARM7 codes so that you can do some limited parallel processing and stuff
03:16:00 <pikhq> The GBA is actually probably quite capable of decoding MP3.
03:16:13 <pikhq> No, I was looking at the DS specs
03:16:57 <pikhq> I think you could pull off an MP2 decoder on that.
03:17:33 <Fiora> you'd need some fixed point madness too, probably XD
03:18:09 <Bike> but could you do that while also performing the tortorous calculations of a pokeyman battle
03:19:04 <zzo38> If it is a homebrew program you might be able to, possibly
03:19:22 <pikhq> Listening to the actual audio though, it sounds like it's mu-law at a decent sampling rate.
03:19:57 <Fiora> ah, so not even like adpcm, even simpler
03:20:14 <pikhq> Gets reasonable audio performance though.
03:20:36 <pikhq> Particularly if you're willing to shove it at, like, 16kHz or more.
03:20:56 <pikhq> 128kbps audio if it's 8-bit 16kHz mu-law.
03:21:30 <pikhq> You're not going to have a *ton* of this stuff in the game like that, but you've definitely got room.
03:21:57 <Bike> they probably splurged for the final boss.
03:23:04 <pikhq> And as far as the sound output goes, you can rather reasonably shove PCM out of it.
03:23:38 <pikhq> And that game with barely done vocals on the DS? That's probably just incompetence.
03:24:09 <Bike> They had a lot of movie cutscenes too, maybe they didn't have room.
03:26:24 <madbr> it does 32 channels of adpcm I think with the normal "bios"
03:26:25 <lambdabot> madbr: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
03:26:27 <zzo38> Why should they need so many movie cutscenes? They shouldn't need a lot of high-quality recorded music either (you can use a simple sound generator).
03:26:50 <madbr> streaming music is boring anyways
03:27:06 <Bike> zzo38: It had a lot of rap.
03:27:38 <kmc> cool, the chinese spammers have moved on from trying to sell me wire mesh
03:27:44 <kmc> now they want to sell me 'double wire binding machine, double wire forming machine, automatic punching machine, etc'
03:27:54 <kmc> an automatic punching machine WOULD be pretty useful
03:29:45 <kmc> Punching speed: 4200/5400(times/hour)
03:30:04 <Sgeo> automatic circumcisers? matching salt and pepper shakers?
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03:30:11 <Bike> they'd better have actually provided that figure kmc
03:30:31 <kmc> well i trascribed it wrong, it was "4200-5400"
03:30:50 <Bike> i wouldn't invest in an automatic punching machine unless i knew was getting at LEAST 3000 punches/hr
03:31:40 <kmc> it's a big Internet and it will take a long time to punch everyone on it
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03:33:16 <elliott> i'll sign up for the kmc punch
03:34:51 <kmc> form a line to the throne
03:37:21 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, DS games had a ton of room
03:37:27 <Fiora> the biggest DS cartridge is actually pokemon black/white, I think
03:39:32 <madbr> how fast is the DS's first core?
03:40:09 <pikhq> Not *enormously* fast, but fast enough to do some decent audio decompression.
03:40:22 <madbr> mp2/mpc is like only half the size of adpcm
03:40:32 <madbr> for like 100x the cpu usage
03:40:48 <madbr> I guess it's ok if the cpu is doing, like, nothing else
03:40:55 <madbr> and it's only one sound at the time
03:41:53 <madbr> mp3 is even slower due to the added mdct
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03:42:19 <madbr> and ogg has even larger MDCTs
03:42:30 <pikhq> There's a reason I was suggesting MP2. :)
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03:43:13 <kmc> do you mean vorbis
03:43:21 <pikhq> kmc: One presumes.
03:43:31 <Bike> ogg is the container format, I thouht?
03:43:38 <madbr> yeah I know ogg is the container format
03:43:51 <kmc> ogg speex and ogg flac files are pretty common I think
03:43:51 <pikhq> Vorbis is not Ogg.
03:43:58 <Bike> "in this conversation about technical aspects of music storage formats i was being nontechnical"
03:44:01 <kmc> also ogg video files with whatever audio codec as well
03:44:07 <pikhq> kmc: What's a bit more common is Vorbis in not-Ogg.
03:44:11 <Bike> anyway i like that they're named after an obscure discworld character
03:44:20 <pikhq> For instance, WebM.
03:44:21 <madbr> pikhq: yes ogg is the container format. but it doesn't matter because ogg is only used for vorbis anyways
03:44:30 <kmc> which is derived from matroshka?
03:44:31 <pikhq> madbr: OGM, anyone?
03:44:39 <kmc> madbr: but that's not true and anyway, why not say the correct thing
03:44:42 <pikhq> kmc: Yes, it's a subset of Matroska.
03:45:12 <madbr> if they called the extension .vorbis, I'd call it vorbis
03:45:25 <madbr> they named the files .ogg so that stuck, fine with me
03:45:26 <pikhq> madbr: That's like saying "MKV" when you mean h.264.
03:45:44 <pikhq> Or "AVI" when you mean DivX.
03:45:59 <madbr> everybody calls vorbis "ogg"
03:46:19 <pikhq> Look at the channel you're in.
03:46:21 <madbr> nitpicking on that is pretentious
03:46:29 <pikhq> Look at the channel you're in.
03:46:33 <zzo38> Ogg container format is use for a few other things too, and I think Ogg is a much better container format than Matroska anyways. For additional data you should have multiple streams; however many you need for the extra data, and then exclude whatever you don't want.
03:46:33 <kmc> i don't deny that i'm being pedantic
03:46:41 <kmc> but I think it's appropriate
03:46:44 <kmc> in context
03:46:56 <kmc> i don't care
03:47:17 <kmc> you may resume your discussion of DCT sizes or whatever
03:47:50 <madbr> yeah irl they mostly use mpc/mp3/ogg (vorbis, whatever) on platforms that have limited bandwidth
03:48:04 <madbr> ie optical media (CDs, blue rays, DVDs)
03:48:17 <madbr> on iphone it's actually not worth it
03:49:25 <madbr> adpcm is twice as large but it's 1/10th the CPU usage
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03:52:40 <madbr> incidentally it's also much, much, much easier to implement in hardware, which is why a lot of platforms had it too
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04:34:50 <Sgeo> Vault uses unsafePerformIO
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04:35:08 <Sgeo> I was hoping there was a 'pure' way to do that sort of arbitrary type data store
04:35:12 <Bike_> gotta go fast *obnoxiously distorted Sonic music*
04:35:42 <elliott> vault uses unsafeCoerce, not unsafePerformIO
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04:36:08 <elliott> anyway you need to add a primitive typed name supply where equality gives evidence of type equality e.g. Typeable is actually fulfilling this role
04:36:13 <elliott> then you can build everything else on top of that
04:36:30 <shachaf> hang on hang on what's going on here "this look good"
04:36:32 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF9CS3L_ezw
04:36:48 <shachaf> i gotta get in on this hi monqy business
04:36:56 <Sgeo> https://github.com/HeinrichApfelmus/vault/blob/master/src/Data/Vault/ST/Pure_Lazy.hs#L30
04:37:36 <elliott> i agree that one specific file has unsafePerformIO in it, not sure why this would prevent you from reading the other files with more canonical implementations than the IORef hack
04:38:04 <Sgeo> Because I thought the file named 'Pure' would be the purest implementation
04:38:05 <elliott> (actually the IORef connection is fairly deep -- a supply of these name things is fundamentally what ST gives you)
04:38:25 <elliott> (Vault and ST are roughly the same thing)
04:38:40 <elliott> (you can implement an ST transformer as a state transformer using Vault and some other stuff, etc.)
04:39:55 * Sgeo reads http://apfelmus.nfshost.com/blog/2011/09/04-vault.html
04:40:01 <kmc> Sgeo: in hdis86 the file named Pure is the one with the pure interface, and consequentially the most unsafePerformWhatever implementation
04:40:08 <elliott> that post probably won't help you understand the primitives underlying this kind of thing
04:40:57 <shachaf> monqy: its the "monqy cheeer"
04:42:11 <shachaf> monqy: have you played the neverhood
04:42:41 <monqy> havent you asked me that at least twice before
04:43:25 <shachaf> maybe i asked the 'old you"
04:43:35 <zzo38> IORef allows you to make (f :: ContT () IO x -> IO [x]) such that (f (return x) = return [x]) from what I can see. It seems to be the only case with ContT with IO monad; not with any other monads, as far as I can tell (except Finalize, which is trivial).
04:43:38 <shachaf> remember, you can't step in the same river twice, monqy
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04:58:39 <oerjan> shachaf: except the ankh, i just learned from that ship of theseus article
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05:21:48 <btiffin> Idea; The programming language with the most easter eggs.
05:22:36 <zzo38> You can write on the esolang wiki list of ideas if you want to
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05:29:22 <btiffin> Did, under Looks Like. I'll accept opinions on the cbrain article too. Just to get a feel for expectations.
05:29:42 <zzo38> Cont r IO x -> r -> IO (r, [x]) works too, I think, other than what I wrote above.
05:29:54 <btiffin> How much time should be spent on the useless? :-)
05:30:37 <zzo38> btiffin: I think the answer is :-)
05:33:01 <btiffin> Anyone try X10? I'm one make rule away from integration with OpenCOBOL, but wonder if that experiment should be suffered to live.
05:33:16 <Bike> is that like x11
05:33:33 <btiffin> Nope, IBM Java umm C++ err thingy
05:33:42 <Bike> "X10 is a protocol for communication among electronic devices used for home automation (domotics)."?
05:34:47 <btiffin> Yeah, it's used a lot, sorry. I mean this one http://x10-lang.org/
05:35:21 <pikhq> X10 is a really low-bandwidth protocol as I recall.
05:36:03 <pikhq> 20 bits per second
05:36:14 <btiffin> Emits Java and C++, which means mucking about in the build chain with extern "C" when I want to play with COBOL
05:36:18 <Bike> "X10 provides Java-like productivity with Java or C++ interoperability" i have no idea what this means
05:36:45 <btiffin> X10 emits either C++ and or Java
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05:38:04 <btiffin> I only care about the C side really, never buying into the sandbox and being denied programmer hardware access.
05:38:42 <pikhq> It's not really correct to say "C gives you hardware access" if you're writing compliant C though...
05:39:04 <pikhq> ISO standard C is rather different from what people pretend C is.
05:39:20 <Bike> but C has Blazing Fast Speed pikhq
05:40:01 <zzo38> Of course it won't give you hardware access if you are writing a portable program.
05:40:05 <pikhq> C-as-people-think is a "portable" assembly. C-as-it-is is basically a weird ludicrously old language that happens to be compilable without much overhead.
05:40:41 <btiffin> Yep, admitted as such by Dennis
05:41:22 <Bike> reading him complain about gcc is the funniest shit
05:41:34 <pikhq> I mean, it works decently for what it is, but it's a language principally used because it's the language of choice for the lower-level APIs on all common OSes.
05:41:36 <btiffin> But, with C and the internet, you live in the same binary interface
05:42:03 <btiffin> Yep, the ABI is part of the thing, and C wins
05:42:40 <btiffin> for now, with this version of the network
05:42:50 <Bike> what network, what
05:43:36 <zzo38> Well, C isn't assembly language; different computers are all differences. However some of the things in C are close to common things in different computers instruction sets, such as converting between a number and a pointer, and bitwise operations, and arithmetic operations. This makes it very portable, in general (although there may be some unusual cases).
05:44:11 <btiffin> take a look the TCP/IP code and you are not in Java 'jvm' space. It's the C ABI, pretty much top to bottom. Python and Perl and Ruby bits, all written in C etc. It's the common denominator of the internet
05:44:25 <Bike> C didn't even have converting a pointer to a number until uintptr_t did it
05:44:54 <pikhq> And the only requirement on uintptr_t is that you can round-trip between uintptr_t and a pointer.
05:44:55 <btiffin> But it's also the stack frames and little-big end ordering and on and on. Pascal call frame order didn't win. C's did.
05:44:57 <Bike> btiffin: shrug, that's just because of how those language runties work. you can write the wire protocol in something else if you want, people just don't.
05:45:36 <pikhq> A conformant implementation of the uintptr_t cast could xor the pointer with an arbitrary integer.
05:46:12 <btiffin> True and actually in the field of course. Fortran web servers and lisp time servers, etc. But I'll stand by the statement, for now, the C ABI is the base.
05:46:35 <pikhq> Yeah, it's generally what OSes are built on.
05:47:00 <Bike> tsk, near as i can tell nobody uses shared objects in very interesting ways though
05:47:03 <pikhq> Not because they should or must be, but just cause that's how it ended up.
05:48:45 <zzo38> Yes, it is true, C does not always have the properties I mentioned, although it is close enough to make it portable, the use of pointers on some computer may not be the same as on other computers, but it can always be used as C pointers, nevertheless.
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05:51:23 <btiffin> But, it isn't a very esoteric idea, just an observation. cbrain is more fun and it'll never run anything. Sweet.
05:52:48 <pikhq> zzo38: The guarantees and lack-thereof in C are pretty fun.
05:53:25 <Bike> revised⁹⁹ report on the algorithmic language c
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10:04:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ PASTENUM="$RANDOM" \ \ mkdir -p $HACKENV/paste \ \ url paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ cat > $HACKENV/paste/paste."$PASTENUM" \ else # Save making a file when it already exists. \ url "$1" \ fi
10:05:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ print ("http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(sys.argv[1]))
10:05:33 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ wisdom
10:05:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/wisdom
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10:37:52 <zzo38> What is a category called if all objects are isomorphic to each other?
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13:21:04 <oklofok> zzo38: equivalent to a monoid
13:21:30 <Taneb> Is this a topic for discussion?
13:21:43 <Taneb> I don't think zzo38 is equivalent to a monoid
13:22:37 <oklofok> Taneb: "<zzo38> What is a category called if all objects are isomorphic to each other?"
13:22:40 <c00kiemon5ter> 04-05 13:37 <zzo38> What is a category called if all objects are isomorphic to each other?
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13:23:49 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: what exactly is a monoid and how does one use one in a program?
13:24:07 <Taneb> I love monoids. They're so easy!
13:24:26 <Taneb> A monoid is basically a generalization of things you can append
13:24:39 <Taneb> And have a nothing that is the identity of appending
13:25:23 <oklofok> a general monoid is that but you equate some elements
13:25:29 <ThatOtherPerson> I am beginning to get the feeling that you have to use a monoid in order to understand what a monoid is.
13:25:42 <Taneb> Strings are monoids
13:25:50 <Taneb> Because you can stick two together
13:26:05 <Taneb> And also the empty string you can stick to anything and it doesn't change it
13:26:28 <Taneb> Numbers are monoids in at least two ways
13:26:57 <oklofok> a monoid is (S, f, 1), where 1 \in S, f is a binary function on S, that is, f : SxS -> S, and the laws f(f(a, b), c) = f(a, f(b, c)) and f(1, a) = a = f(a, 1) hold.
13:27:24 <oklofok> the law f(f(a, b), c) = f(a, f(b, c)) basically states that you can write ab for f(a, b) without confusion
13:27:33 <oklofok> because abc will be unambiguous
13:28:42 <oklofok> and it's basically orthogonal to this
13:28:47 <oklofok> this is called associativity yeah
13:28:47 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: "how do I use a monoid in a program" is the wrong question. "monoid" is a generic interface supported by multiple types. so if you just want an example of "using a monoid" then something totally boring like string concatenation suffices. but the right question is "what do I gain by identifying this generic interface and using it"
13:29:10 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, you know what a group is, yeah?
13:30:11 <Taneb> A monoid is a group without inverse
13:31:31 <boily> can we uplift strings to a group, and have negative strings?
13:31:53 <oklofok> anyway when i said monoid up there, i meant the category theory definition, which means a category with a single object; in a category with a single object, the morphisms form a monoid in the sense i defined above.
13:31:55 <ThatOtherPerson> I'm still not completely sure "what ... I gain by identifying this generic interface and using it"
13:32:08 <kmc> it's the same with monads. easy to explain how IO or Maybe or lists work, somewhat harder to explain what they have in common and why we have a generic interface to all of them
13:32:17 <kmc> but definitely harder still if you don't distinguish these goals
13:32:51 <oklofok> ThatOtherPerson: you can write a method that takes a list of values from a monoid, and appends them in that order. this generalizes both concatenating a list of lists and adding a list of numbers.
13:33:03 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: edwardk has this 'finger tree' data structure library which keeps an annotation at each layer of the tree
13:33:11 <kmc> the annotation is allowed to be any type supporting the monoid interface
13:33:20 <kmc> because all you need to do is combine annotations of subtrees
13:34:54 <ThatOtherPerson> Similar to how Python generalizes the "sequence" interface
13:35:17 <kmc> except that in Python interfaces are basically implicit and exist in documentation only
13:35:33 <kmc> whereas Haskell has this "type classes" feature for making the language aware of them
13:35:44 <kmc> of course you could standardize a monoid interface in Python too
13:35:53 <kmc> or a Java interface or a C++ abstract base class
13:36:30 <kmc> but it might be one of those cases where the abstraction is worth it in Haskell, because the language is so expressive, and not worth it it other languages
13:36:37 <kmc> that seems to be the case with monads anyway
13:37:27 <kmc> btw to be pedantic above, a moniod isn't a group without an inverse, it's a group which doesn't *necessarily* have an inverse, i.e. having an inverse is not part of the definition of 'monoid'. but every group is a monoid as well
13:37:57 <Taneb> It's a group where you don't care if it has an inverse or not
13:38:59 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: another fun monoid is functions from a type to that same type, functions with type like A -> A
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13:39:28 <kmc> you can combine two of these functions by composing them, which is associative
13:39:49 <kmc> and the identity function is your identity element
13:39:56 <kmc> beacuse (f . id) = (id . f) = f
13:41:29 <oklofok> ^ and that's actually a category with a single object, that is, a category theoretical monoid
13:41:53 <ThatOtherPerson> Wait, in Haskell, can you do something like `new_function = (f1 . f2)`
13:41:57 <oklofok> the category has one object, the type A, and the morphisms are the functions from A to A
13:42:37 <oklofok> well you can do it in python, so obviously you can do it in haskell
13:42:45 <Taneb> Haskell has a very light-weight syntax when it comes to defining functions
13:43:37 <ThatOtherPerson> I never even knew a language had a composition operator until 3 minutes ago
13:43:55 <oklofok> well okay python doesn't allow you to make new operators, but that's just a syntax thing
13:43:57 <Koen_> today's problem is more interesting! http://imgur.com/5Z57Z4P
13:44:03 <kmc> of course in Haskell the composition operator doesn't need to be built in, it's just part of the standard library
13:44:35 <oklofok> you can write f = dot(f1, f2) in python
13:44:36 <kmc> > let (...) f g x = f (g x) in (show ... succ) 5
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13:44:53 <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: now that you know what monoids are, I can try to explain what a category is, if you don't know
13:45:00 <kmc> since categories are a generalization of monoids
13:45:19 <oklofok> the only difference is "." is a valid name for a function in haskell, and it's interpreted as an operator so it's called by writing "f1 . f2".
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13:46:13 <kmc> okay well we said that if set S is a monoid, then you can combine any two elements of S
13:46:22 <kmc> if S is a category, then there are some restrictions on which elements you can combine
13:47:11 <kmc> if S is a category then every element of S has what i'm going to call a "type", which is written in the form A -> B
13:47:47 <kmc> (this doesn't mean they are functions, although they might be; it's really just a pair (A,B) of symbols drawn from some set of types)
13:48:03 <oklofok> (elements in kmc's text are what i have been calling morphisms, and types in kmc's are what i called objects, just in case you've read my text)
13:48:26 <kmc> and we still have an associative binary operator, but you can only use it when the types are like A -> B and B -> C
13:48:51 <kmc> and rather than a single identity element, you have one of type A -> A for every A
13:49:25 <kmc> yeah I'm using nonstandrad terminology for the moment, because I think the standard terminology is confusing from a programming perspective
13:50:02 <kmc> when i see "object" i expect it to be one of the elements of the set we can compose stuff from, but it actually means the alphabet we're drawing types from
13:50:34 <kmc> so, one kinda obvious example of a category is the set of all functions
13:50:45 <Koen_> so guys imagine I'm in a labyrinth
13:50:55 <Koen_> and I need to remember in what part of the labyrinth I am to know what strategy use
13:50:59 <kmc> whereas monoids only let us talk about functions like A -> A, categories have all the machinery to say which functions compose with which other ones (not by coincidence)
13:51:03 <Koen_> how many ways to program that?
13:51:22 <kmc> also every monoid is a category with only one type
13:51:32 <kmc> ("object" in standard terminology)
13:51:54 <Koen_> say you are alerted whenever you change parts, but that's all
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13:52:09 <Koen_> so you could use different functions for different parts, and swap functions when you change
13:52:35 <oklofok> (kmc: i didn't mean your terminology is bad, just wanted to point out we are talking about the same thing.)
13:52:37 <Koen_> or you could say "when you change, start drawing signs on the wall and keep drawing as long as there are drwings here
13:53:11 <oklofok> (in case ThatOtherPerson read both and wondered what i was going on about.)
13:54:46 <kmc> i'll brb, i'll let other people give examples of other interesting categories though
13:55:11 <kmc> i'm told that category theory is really about natural transformations, and categories and functors are just preliminaries to get there
13:55:15 <kmc> but I don't know much about that
13:55:36 <Koen_> (in other words how many ways do you have to remember the current state when you're implementing a cellular automaton)
13:57:09 <oklofok> we're currently writing an article about the category of cellular automata
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13:58:04 <oklofok> the elements are cellular automata, the types are a bit hard to explain
13:58:11 <Koen_> oklofok: so for instance http://imgur.com/5Z57Z4P
13:58:46 <Koen_> to solve this you'd need a cellular automaton that'd say "until you've reached the orange square, go forward"
13:59:00 <Koen_> and then "once you've passed the orange square, move in a staircase pattern"
13:59:01 <oklofok> can you have just a single head that moves about?
13:59:09 <oklofok> because to me that sounds more like a turing machien
13:59:30 <Koen_> but the problem is: I have no "write" command
13:59:51 <oklofok> i have written a survey on this topic >P
13:59:52 <Koen_> so how do I know if I have passed the orange square yet?
14:00:02 <oklofok> survey on picture-walking automata
14:02:25 <Koen_> oklofok: is that you? http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-24897-9_9?LI=true
14:09:09 <oklofok> i'm the latter author yeah
14:11:11 <oklofok> the survey is not on your actual question, just on the general topic
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14:12:13 <oklofok> oh okay that's some kind of picture walking PDA, and i think i've solved this exact problem on robozzle
14:12:23 <oklofok> PDA = finite state automaton with a stack
14:12:34 <oklofok> then the survey is not really on topic, sorry
14:13:15 <Koen_> oklofok: yeah I found out about the stack by accident
14:13:35 <oklofok> the model of robozzle is very interesting, i dunno if it's been studied
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14:13:51 <Koen_> basically I forgot that the remainder of the function would accumulate if I don't reach it
14:14:14 <Koen_> so I could do something like "while you haven't reached the orange square, don't do the second part of the function"
14:14:18 <DHeadshot> Has anyone yet ported Piet to the Pi?
14:14:21 <Koen_> that is, loop on the first part
14:14:39 <Koen_> and when I'm done looping I've left with a not-loop of many many copies of the end of the function
14:14:46 <oklofok> then again even in the theory of picture-walking finite state automata a lot of basic questions are open so dunno if you'd get much out of a more complicated model
14:15:19 <oklofok> Koen_: yeah that's the natural solution
14:15:34 <oklofok> much easier with an actual stack
14:17:11 <oklofok> Koen_: what is that game called?
14:17:21 <Koen_> it's called fourth test for 42
14:17:28 <Koen_> and it lasts 4 hours
14:17:43 <Koen_> I did the first 9 levels in 20 minutes
14:17:49 <Koen_> then spent 40 minutes on the tenth
14:17:56 <Koen_> now I'm on the 12th
14:18:10 <Koen_> (the one I showed you is then 10th)
14:18:53 <oklofok> of course this is one of the puzzles
14:19:03 <Koen_> the third test was counting dots not unlike your thing
14:19:30 <Koen_> (I think the purpose of the first three tests was to test my patience)
14:21:33 <oklofok> so as i mentioned, i know this game under the name robozzle, and it's awesome
14:23:37 <oklofok> we played it with fizzie some years ago
14:31:55 <Koen_> oklofok: try that one http://imgur.com/ZbbVJum
14:32:53 <coppro> yay, my seerpak arrived
14:34:25 <Taneb> coppro, I ordered the physical copy :/
14:34:50 <oklofok> fizzie: have you solved puzzle number 1075?
14:35:04 <oklofok> Koen_: i have to solve 1075 first.
14:35:28 <fizzie> I don't know what this is all about.
14:35:49 <coppro> Taneb: I wanted to throw money at the thing and the tarot deck is awesome
14:36:01 <Taneb> coppro, I didn't have money at the time
14:36:15 <Taneb> But kinda wanted a physical copy
14:36:24 <Taneb> Because I'd lose the digital download :/
14:37:38 <coppro> I have an email label where I stash download links like that
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14:57:30 <fizzie> Probably not. I haven't touched Robozzle "since then".
15:02:24 <boily> `run grep -v '^#' /etc/locale.gen
15:02:26 <HackEgo> grep: /etc/locale.gen: No such file or directory
15:03:05 <boily> `run LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 date
15:03:06 <HackEgo> 2013年 4月 5日 金曜日 15:03:06 UTC
15:03:23 <boily> `run LANG=fr_CA.UTF-8 date
15:03:25 <HackEgo> vendredi 5 avril 2013, 15:03:24 (UTC+0000)
15:07:42 <Taneb> LogicT is ALMOST a special case of ContT
15:08:53 <Taneb> Alas, m (r -> r) /~ m r -> m r
15:09:14 <lambdabot> `/' (imported from Prelude), `/=' (imported from Data.Eq),
15:09:55 <Taneb> I'm trying to say "are not sort of equivalent"
15:10:41 -!- yiyus has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
15:11:18 <boily> Taneb: something like ≁?
15:11:39 <Taneb> Except my keyboard has less than a thousand buttons
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15:21:32 <fizzie> "What kind of lame keyboard is that?"
15:24:09 <fizzie> Oh, some sort of projection thing?
15:24:22 <fizzie> An astral projection keyboard.
15:25:05 <Taneb> Yeah, it's kind of uncomfortable to type with
15:27:57 <zzo38> LogicT is a special case of Codensity, but not of ContT
15:28:06 <zzo38> ContT is also a special case of Codensity
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15:31:27 <zzo38> LogicT is a better kind of list monad transformer than ListT (which doesn't work).
15:32:04 <lambdabot> atriq: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
15:32:08 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1d 17h 5m 5s ago: <atriq> Trivia: I have a cousin who is just like me, except Australian and somehow less awesome. <-- they live in one of the other two Hexhams, right?
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15:51:28 <boily> ramdom request: could somebody ping 2607:fad8:4:6:f2de:f1ff:fe6c:6765 ?
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15:53:53 <fizzie> It does not seem to answer to me.
15:53:59 -!- calamari has left.
15:54:15 <fizzie> A random other v6 address -- 2a00:1450:400f:800::1002, one of what google.com resolves to -- does.
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16:50:02 <mroman> How many trees can you fit into a square?
16:51:45 <mroman> the so called tree-packing-bound.
16:52:20 <mroman> where a tree is actually just a sphere connected to a cylinder.
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17:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> uh, what do you call a space that's made of subsets of the euclidean space glued together so the entire thing isn't isometric to any euclidean subset
17:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> people keep calling it 'non-euclidean' but i don't think that's accurate
17:12:17 <Bike> well 'non-euclidean' is roughly the vaguest term ever so
17:12:44 <Phantom_Hoover> but definitely it's not euclidean less the parallel postulate
17:13:19 <Bike> even if parallel lines met or whatever, 'non-euclidean' woldn't really narrow it down, i mean
17:14:37 <Bike> anyway i have no idea about the actual answer
17:16:23 <oklopol> so err, do you mean a simplicial complex which cannot be embedded in R^n for any n?
17:16:31 <oklopol> sorry, i don't know a name for this
17:17:12 <oklopol> actually what you describe sounds more like a manifold
17:18:17 <oklopol> now that i think about it, i do know a name for a simplicial complex which cannot be embedded in R^n for any n
17:18:37 <oklopol> such a simplicial complex is referred to as "nonexistent"
17:19:13 <oklopol> but of course if you fix a dimension, then this can happen, and anything can happen with manifolds ofc.
17:19:41 <oklopol> in any case i don't have any nontrivial answers, but non-euclidean sounds wrong to me too
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17:33:15 <metasepia> CYUL 051700Z 28018KT 15SM FEW050 FEW080 06/M02 A2983 RMK SC1AC1 CU EMBD SLP103
17:36:07 <zzo38> What city is CYUL?
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17:44:13 <olsner> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYUL probably
17:45:21 <olsner> (otoh, since wikipedia has so much contents about canada - maybe everything on wikipedia is just made up?)
17:52:40 <boily> @tell zzo38 Montréal.
17:53:17 <boily> olsner: welcome to wikipedia, where canada is made up and weather doesn't matter. (but tim hortons does, eh)
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18:23:30 <nooodl> how do i read ~metar output
18:25:03 <boily> partial infos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR
18:25:13 <boily> useful tool: http://www.metarreader.com/
18:25:14 <fizzie> I've used the http://www.flyingineurope.be/metar_taf_decode.htm table.
18:25:31 <fizzie> (One needs to scroll past the TAF bit.)
18:25:52 <metasepia> EFHK 051820Z 36006KT CAVOK 04/M04 Q1012 NOSIG
18:26:07 <fizzie> Ooh, still above freezing.
18:27:05 <boily> today we had snow, rain, hail, snow and rain, wind...
18:27:28 <fizzie> Lately it's been so that it's -10 to -5 °C in the night, but somethin above +5 °C in the day, so during the day all the snow and ice melts, then at night it freezes again, and in the morning there's patches of mirror-polished ice everywhere.
18:28:36 <metasepia> ESSA 051820Z 01006KT CAVOK M00/M08 Q1017 R88/09//95 NOSIG
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18:33:58 <fizzie> Perhaps you should clear the cows out the runway.
18:35:04 <olsner> if the cows could fly away they wouldn't be as much of a problem
18:35:40 <ThatOtherPerson> Joining mid-conversation and trying to figure out what is going on is always such fun
18:36:24 <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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18:42:34 <boily> `addquote <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
18:42:39 <HackEgo> 1011) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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18:47:15 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: oh well err if you want an actual isometry, then it's possible that not all simplicial complexes can be embedded.
18:47:28 <oklopol> or what did you mean by the question not being topological
18:49:35 <kmc> ~metar KBOS
18:49:36 <metasepia> KBOS 051754Z 25007KT 10SM SCT050 SCT070 BKN150 12/M03 A2973 RMK AO2 SLP068 T01171033 10122 20050 58041
18:49:46 <kmc> how should I learn how to read this
18:49:56 <oklopol> okay so if you take an equilatelar triangle with the metric obtained from gluing three intervals with their natural metric metric then i suppose it doesn't embed in R^n for any n
18:51:02 <Bike> that seems like kind of a fucking weird metric
18:51:22 <oklopol> usually you don't metrize simplicial complices
18:51:32 <elliott> kmc: 19:23:30 <nooodl> how do i read ~metar output
18:51:32 <elliott> 19:25:03 <boily> partial infos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR
18:51:32 <elliott> 19:25:13 <boily> useful tool: http://www.metarreader.com/
18:51:32 <elliott> 19:25:14 <fizzie> I've used the http://www.flyingineurope.be/metar_taf_decode.htm table.
18:51:35 <elliott> 19:25:31 <fizzie> (One needs to scroll past the TAF bit.)
18:51:58 <oklopol> but this is the natural metric in some sense, imo
18:52:18 <Bike> i can see the logic but it still seems fucking weird
18:53:17 <oklopol> yeah the idea was that to measure the distance between points in different components, you make the shortest path which is affine on each simplex and add up the lengths
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18:53:57 <Phantom_Hoover> oh right wait i just realised why doing this with isometries is probably impossible
18:54:55 <Phantom_Hoover> basically what i mean is the sort of trickery showcased in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFbRecjKQA
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18:58:50 <Phantom_Hoover> antichamber is probably a better example but i couldn't be bothered finding a video
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19:03:27 <Bike> I wonder if the little cube you have to crawl through is a deliberate Prey joke.
19:05:28 <Taneb> Is this a game I should bother with
19:06:40 <Taneb> How much does it cost
19:11:30 <Taneb> Not if you buy really cheap sandwiches!
19:11:41 <Gregor> Either those are some amazingly inexpensive sandwiches, or that's not a very useful comparison.
19:12:07 <Taneb> Also, I don't have a Windows computer at the moment
19:12:24 <elliott> can hoovers eat sandwiches
19:13:29 <olsner> Gregor: or perhaps both?
19:15:03 <Taneb> So I'd have to convince my brother to let me use his computer to play a weird game
19:15:22 <Gregor> Taneb: It'll probably work under wine *shrugs*
19:15:32 <Gregor> (This assumption based on nothing but wine's overall success rate)
19:16:27 <Taneb> For that I'd need to overcome the Chinese Graphics Card Problem IV: I Thought I Had Fixed It But Nooooo
19:17:09 <Gregor> So #esoteric folks, what should I do with my Nexus 10 tablet?
19:17:10 <monqy> did you get a new graphics card but woops it was chinese too
19:18:07 <Taneb> monqy, the first graphics card came from a bootleg website and came with a manual only in Chinese
19:18:33 <monqy> why did you get it if it was from a bootleg website
19:18:38 <monqy> that sounds like a bad idea
19:19:10 <Taneb> The second I think is legitimate
19:19:16 <Taneb> I just suck at graphics cards drivers
19:19:27 <Taneb> And also my brother stole my screen so I can't fix it
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19:20:03 <Taneb> AndGregor, do you know Gregor?
19:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> imo you should be able to use that for leverage to play antichamber on his computer
19:20:44 <Taneb> I probs could without him noticing
19:20:48 <monqy> `welcome AndGregor
19:20:50 <HackEgo> AndGregor: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:24:50 <boily> as long as you don't multiply like tribbles and andtribbles, everything is fine.
19:25:58 <AndGregor> I'm just trying to figure out what to do with a tablet PC.
19:26:27 <Taneb> About cuboids invading Edinburgh
19:26:28 <boily> chisel your poems in it, like a real tablet!
19:26:39 <monqy> i've never figured out what tablet pc`s are for
19:27:02 <kmc> "tablet PC" or new style tablet a la iPad?
19:27:11 <Taneb> I think they're like laptops but more so
19:27:39 <monqy> new style tablet mainly....laptop with a tablet-y screen makes sense at least
19:27:52 <kmc> monqy: they're for demonstrating that you have lots of disposable income
19:28:22 <kmc> also for having a web browsing device that just works
19:28:28 <impomatic> Tablet PCs are for checking your email, IRC and stuff during dinner when you can access a real computer
19:28:37 <kmc> i.e. not running Windows
19:28:50 <impomatic> At least that's what I use mine for
19:28:53 <kmc> Apple could just sell laptops with iOS on them, but then they wouldn't make as much money
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19:29:13 <monqy> could sell laptops with macos on them
19:29:14 <elliott> well if you sell a alptop with iOS on it you might as well sell a laptop with OS X on it instead
19:29:33 <elliott> since iOS is basically OS X with a simplified interface designed for a device that isn't based around a keyboard and pointer device
19:29:37 <kmc> elliott: no because the iOS is less likely to break, by virtue of doing fewer things and being totally locked down
19:29:57 <elliott> well, I don't think macbook airs that people use for web browsing or whatever have a reputation of breaking
19:30:12 <monqy> imo make another version thats even more locked down and sell clothing with it installed
19:30:18 <impomatic> You can just about get away with using a tablet PC in the pub. No chance of using a laptop in the pub.
19:30:41 <monqy> brain implant. now you are the iOS
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19:33:24 <kmc> THEN WHO WAS PHONE
19:34:42 <Taneb> I AM NO LONGER PHONE
19:34:57 <oerjan> OF COURSE NOT, YOU ARE DEAD
19:36:04 <Taneb> THIS IS PROBLEMATIC
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19:39:46 <AndGregor> This is an Android tablet, a Nexus 10.
19:40:11 <AndGregor> Kinda makes me wonder what tablets are for.
19:41:21 <oerjan> <boily> can we uplift strings to a group, and have negative strings? <-- yes.
19:41:41 <boily> I indeed said that. now on to understand what I said.
19:41:48 <boily> ~duck negative string
19:42:48 <oerjan> boily: see: free group. strings are already a free monoid.
19:43:03 <kmc> this is why
19:43:13 <kmc> i typed "this is why" into my irc client and then got distracted
19:43:20 <impomatic> Someone needs to write a Core War app for Android. And a decent Forth interpreter. And a decent personal wiki.
19:44:39 <impomatic> That'd be something like Smalltalk
19:44:42 <olsner> kmc: maybe you meant to say "this is why
19:45:48 <kmc> :))))))))))))))
19:48:37 <ThatOtherPerson> Phantom_Hoover: the caps lock is to the left of the "A" on your keyboard
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19:58:30 <oerjan> <kmc> ThatOtherPerson: edwardk has this 'finger tree' data structure library which keeps an annotation at each layer of the tree <-- afaict edwardk is neither the inventor nor maintainer of the fingertree package
19:59:52 <elliott> oerjan: when in doubt, say edwardk did it.
20:00:05 <olsner> maybe it was ezyang, also starts with an e
20:00:16 <kmc> i guess i am wrong
20:00:20 <kmc> i thought that because I saw him give a talk about it
20:00:24 <kmc> but my memory is hazy
20:00:40 <oerjan> kmc: he probably would have invented it if no one had done already, right
20:01:15 <oerjan> (actually finger trees are probably not category based enough for that)
20:01:43 <oerjan> elliott: YOUR PICTURE PLZ
20:01:56 <ThatOtherPerson> Or do these trees have servers which answer to the finger protocol?
20:02:40 <elliott> http://i.imgur.com/sRyCi.png
20:02:43 <Taneb> ThatOtherPerson, finger trees are a cool kind of tree
20:02:48 <elliott> did monqy see the finger tree
20:03:46 <ThatOtherPerson> Oh, thank you for that image, now I know exactly what a finger tree looks like!
20:04:27 <monqy> elliott: yeah i have
20:04:41 <monqy> reminds me of my arms dream
20:04:58 <Taneb> http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/papers/FingerTree.html
20:05:58 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: I do not believe that is truly what a finger tree is; it is much to boring; I am sticking with elliott's interpretation
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20:07:38 <elliott> every time I see it I am just reminded at how much of a pain GIMP made it to make
20:08:40 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: on second thought, elliott just blasphemed against GIMP. I shall now study that URL you posted in great detail.
20:09:00 <elliott> fun fact: it's kind of awful
20:09:23 <Taneb> elliott, 2.8 is a bit better
20:09:24 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> Wait, in Haskell, can you do something like `new_function = (f1 . f2)` <-- in principle that's good, but there's an obstacle you sometimes hit that's called the "monomorphism restriction".
20:09:51 <Taneb> oerjan, he's not ready to hear about the monomorphism restriction
20:10:11 <oerjan> there are several ways to get around it, though, including an option to turn it off entirely
20:10:25 <oerjan> Taneb: which is why i didn't explain what it was duh
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20:11:05 <oerjan> however it's relevant here because one of the ways to get around is to use functions with explicit arguments.
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20:11:37 <ThatOtherPerson> elliott: Is there any photo editing software that you do like?
20:11:43 <oerjan> so when you use new_function = ... a lot you are much more likely to hit it
20:12:12 <elliott> but I guess I like gimp the least
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20:18:04 <oerjan> <kmc> i'm told that category theory is really about natural transformations, and categories and functors are just preliminaries to get there
20:18:11 <oerjan> yeah there's a famous quote
20:19:09 <oerjan> 'Saunders Mac Lane, one of the founders of category theory, is said to have remarked, "I didn't invent categories to study functors; I invented them to study natural transformations."'
20:21:41 <HackEgo> category theory? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:22:02 <oerjan> `learn Category theory is the theory of categories.
20:22:18 <oerjan> that should clear things up.
20:23:03 <oerjan> `run echo "Category theory is the theory of categories." >wisdom/'category theory'
20:23:15 <HackEgo> Category theory is the theory of categories.
20:23:30 <olsner> is there also a category of theories?
20:24:44 <oerjan> i don't know about it though
20:24:58 <oerjan> and theory might have several meanings
20:25:19 <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
20:30:25 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
20:30:28 <coppro> `addquote <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
20:30:32 <HackEgo> 1012) <olsner> in category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories
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20:35:29 <coppro> Taneb: retcooooonnnnnnnnnn
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20:36:52 <ThatOtherPerson> Taneb: his hand wasn't there the whole time, was it? Did I just not notice somehow?
20:38:19 <coppro> look at the image URLs
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20:47:51 <oerjan> <lambdabot> Not in scope: `/~'
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20:48:17 <ion> /~ is obviously the non-MonadState variant of /=
20:48:50 <oerjan> ion: hm that may be why it isn't defined, since the corresponding /= cannot be
20:49:56 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 ^~ (/) ?? 2 -- will this have the right fixities?
20:49:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral (a0 -> a0 -> a0))
20:50:11 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 ^~ ((/) ?? 2) -- will this have the right fixities?
20:50:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Real.Integral (b0 -> b0))
20:50:27 <lambdabot> (Integral e, Num a) => ASetter s t a a -> e -> s -> t
20:50:40 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 %~ (/) ?? 2 -- will this have the right fixities?
20:50:43 <lambdabot> (*Exception: showsPrec: No overloading for function
20:50:59 <oerjan> > (pi,exp 1) & _1 %~ ((/) ?? 2) -- will this have the right fixities?
20:51:01 <lambdabot> (1.5707963267948966,2.718281828459045)
20:51:47 <oerjan> elliott: well yes, but i was trying to separate / and 2
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20:55:56 <lambdabot> Fractional a => ASetter s t a a -> a -> s -> t
20:55:58 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, MonadState s m) => ASetter' s a -> a -> m ()
20:56:36 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> uh, what do you call a space that's made of subsets of the euclidean space glued together so the entire thing isn't isometric to any euclidean subset
20:57:15 <oerjan> i think isometric is fine?
20:58:08 <oerjan> given that you seem to say the _geometry_ is locally euclidean, not just the topology
20:58:23 <oerjan> (if the latter, the word you want is "manifold")
21:07:49 <oerjan> grmbl i was sure there would be a word for this from complex branch cut theory, but they just use riemann surfaces, which is too general
21:08:06 <oerjan> (looking at wikipedia)
21:11:09 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riemann_surface#Parabolic_Riemann_surfaces is too specific i think
21:11:33 <oerjan> although i'd think curvature 0 is something you want
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21:22:28 <oerjan> <olsner> if the cows could fly away they wouldn't be as much of a problem <-- i dunno, getting a cow flying into your jet engine would probably suck
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21:26:26 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: anyway i am still imagining complex branch cuts here; like with f(z) = sqrt(z) you have to go twice around the origin to return to the same place
21:27:24 <oerjan> or rather, the surfaces you need to define the functions on in order not to have cuts.
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21:30:55 <oerjan> <Taneb> For that I'd need to overcome the Chinese Graphics Card Problem IV: I Thought I Had Fixed It But Nooooo
21:31:06 <oerjan> this is another esolang name suggestion, right?
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22:47:13 <oerjan> french porn spam, now on esolang
22:52:36 <elliott> oerjan: you sound like an expert. want to handle it?
22:53:15 <Gregor> If the French porn is free, save some for me.
22:54:28 <oerjan> i used to be a pert, but now i'm out of shape
22:55:33 <pikhq> Guys, I might have a problem.
22:55:39 <pikhq> I wrote... yet another Brainfuck interpreter.
22:56:25 <oerjan> i think yabi may already exist
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23:47:03 <Sgeo> elliott, why are you randomly mentioning newLisp to me?
23:48:09 <elliott> i found a log with newlisp talk in it
23:49:37 * Sgeo thinks it would be good for a codenomic but not necessarily much else
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