00:00:15 <kmc> they aren't my 'real initials'
00:00:16 <kmc> but thanks
00:04:45 <elliott> i mean nobody complains about Richard M'Stallman's choice of nick either
00:06:40 <elliott> no i definitely got it right
00:06:54 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
00:06:59 <shachaf> elliott: rms stands for raymond m smullyan hth
00:09:02 <Bike> arnold smullyan smullyan
00:11:09 <ThatOtherPerson> wait why the quotes? Does that mean he is only a nominally real person?
00:12:11 -!- tswett has changed nick to ts.
00:12:17 <ts> Aw, this nickname is registered.
00:12:19 -!- ts has changed nick to tswett.
00:12:43 <tswett> So, about that World Trade Center.
00:13:02 <tswett> Apparently the electrical service it received was 13,800 volts.
00:13:04 <Bike> its initials are far inferior to kmc's, imo
00:13:14 <tswett> That's kind of a lot of voltage.
00:13:30 <shachaf> kmc's initials are btm13, right?
00:13:37 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
00:13:41 -!- ThatOtherPerson has changed nick to wtc.
00:13:45 <Bike> it's kind of a lot of building!
00:13:45 <wtc> wow really
00:14:05 <wtc> it's registered
00:14:10 -!- wtc has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
00:14:53 <kmc> tswett: that seems like a standard distribution voltage
00:15:05 <kmc> basically just means it was big enough to have its own substation
00:15:20 <tswett> Is it a standard distribution voltage?
00:16:13 <tswett> So this says that a refrigeration plant in the North Tower provided air conditioning to the entire WTC complex.
00:16:44 <tswett> So I guess there were just ducts, presumably underground, carrying the conditioned air to the other buildings?
00:16:45 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:16:51 <kmc> or chilled water
00:17:11 <pikhq> Did they use radiator systems?
00:17:20 <kmc> it's common for a campus of buildings to have central heating, cooling, and power systems linked to the buildings by tunnels
00:17:33 <tswett> Hm. Would chilled water really work for air conditioning?
00:17:45 <tswett> Doesn't A/C dry the air as well as cooling it?
00:18:01 <pikhq> tswett: That's just a side effect of how the heat pumps work.
00:18:03 <olsner> I think water is what district heating and cooling usually use
00:18:10 <pikhq> It's not a *necessary* thing.
00:18:13 <kmc> it's not always desirable either
00:18:25 <pikhq> Though it is beneficial in some climates.
00:18:32 <kmc> we had a lot of fun running around in the steam tunnels at Caltech
00:18:42 <kmc> drawing maps, finding locked doors and the keys that would open them
00:18:51 <olsner> I guess you might want cold in something with a lower freezing point though
00:18:57 <tswett> Steam tunnels are fun because if you break open a steam pipe, you die.
00:18:58 <Phantom__Hoover> did you just go to university in a fucking adventure playground
00:19:04 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: basically
00:19:13 <pikhq> In other climates, you can actually use evaporative cooling and *increase* the humidity. ... Thereby increasing comfort.
00:19:16 <elliott> i want to go to caltech just from hearing kmc talk about his antics
00:19:16 <kmc> tswett: they're not very easy to break though
00:19:24 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
00:19:24 <kmc> elliott: i hear it sucks now, they got an Evil Dean who hates fun
00:19:57 <elliott> i cannot conceive of a scenario where i would actually end up at caltech anyway so that is okay!
00:20:05 <Bike> kmc: is it true that real human beings call that 'vadding'
00:20:15 <Phantom___Hoover> i keep forgetting how in america you actually have to cool buildings down
00:20:40 <kmc> they disbanded the satanist house :/
00:20:56 <olsner> actually you need a bit of A/C pretty much everywhere
00:21:43 <tswett> Phantom___Hoover: so how hot does it get in the middle of your summer?
00:21:47 <shachaf> Phantom___Hoover: that's only in parts of america
00:21:57 <kmc> 'vadding'?
00:22:13 <Bike> kmc: for 'roof and tunnel hacking'
00:22:21 <tswett> McMurdo Station, of course.
00:22:47 <kmc> Bike: i haven't heard it
00:23:15 <kmc> we had chilled water pipes in the tunnels but I don't know if they were used for cooling buildings or just for lab purposes
00:23:18 <kmc> probably both though
00:23:25 <tswett> Edinburgh seems pretty mild.
00:23:32 <kmc> the biology buildings had these gigantic ventillation caverns that were used to keep a net flow of air into the building
00:23:36 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:23:42 <kmc> so that if the ebola virus got out they could contain it
00:25:27 <olsner> hmm, a net flow into the building should be constantly increasing the pressure inside
00:25:32 <tswett> Sure enough, Edinburghan summers are cooler than San Franciscan ones.
00:25:38 <kmc> yeah I don't know how it works tbh
00:25:43 <kmc> maybe they had a filtered outflow somewhere
00:25:44 <Bike> what, like negative pressure?
00:25:49 <olsner> maybe the building just expands to keep the pressure sane
00:26:29 <olsner> I'm not sure that's the right direction of pressure though
00:26:31 <olsner> if someone opens a window the ebola gets out and that's the opposite of what you want
00:26:55 <Bike> just to confuse you more, there are suits that work like those buildings
00:26:57 <olsner> the building should be pulling air in and through the ebola filter
00:27:22 <tswett> Obviously they just chill the air until it becomes a liquid, thereby reducing its pressure.
00:27:37 <tswett> And then they probably launch it into space.
00:27:43 <Bike> hm, what's caltech's BSL rating
00:28:50 <Bike> nope, no BSL-4 in cali
00:28:54 <Bike> you're lying to me kmc
00:29:19 <Bike> where the ebola!!!
00:30:03 <elliott> imo it's cool that we have like eradicated shit just lying around places
00:30:05 <kmc> ok i'm pretty sure they didn't actually have ebola
00:30:18 <kmc> the rest is from rumor I was told, that I never bothered to validate
00:30:22 <Bike> elliott: the smallpox thing is just terrible
00:30:31 <kmc> there was a website with a ton of great photos of the steam tunnels but it's gone now :( :( :( :(
00:30:36 <elliott> just in case anyone ever needs some smallpox
00:30:48 <kmc> there was 80 years worth of murals and bad angsty poetry down there
00:30:49 <Bike> tswett: there's a US facility and a russian facility that have smallpox samples for no good reason
00:31:01 <tswett> Yeah, that does sound kind of silly.
00:31:09 <olsner> how hard is it for a biology student to "accidentally" construct some ebola in the lab nowadays?
00:31:11 <Bike> the russian facility is called VECTOR and this is apparently some kind of abbreviation? like, lol
00:31:18 <Bike> olsner: 'construct'?
00:31:26 <tswett> Have they sequenced smallpox, and if so, have they released the code online?
00:31:42 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
00:31:47 <Bike> they have sequenced it, and i think you can get it online maybe
00:31:56 <olsner> VECTOR sounds a bit like a bond villain biolab
00:32:18 <olsner> although it would be something like BEKTOP
00:32:35 <Bike> soviet facilities accidentally killed a few hundred of their employees with various diseases at points too
00:33:18 <tswett> Hm, what was that one game called.
00:33:20 <Bike> ah right with anthrax
00:33:36 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:33:48 <tswett> I think it was KO<something>CTPYKTOP.
00:34:08 <tswett> KOHCTPYKTOP, apparently.
00:34:35 <elliott> Bike: imo they have polio samples in case they ever want to kill the other
00:34:39 <Bike> "In KOHCTPYKTOP: Engineer of the People, you play as an engineer working in a semiconductor factory designing integrated circuits based on specifications provided to you. What does it have to do with communism? You’ll have to play to find out!" k
00:34:47 <elliott> it's like both nations having a bunch of nukes so they can rest in peace
00:35:18 <Bike> except with your skin being covered in painful scabs instead of having your face melt off, yes
00:35:51 <tswett> Did they eradicate polio? HTH.
00:36:15 <Bike> the only two eradicated diseases are smallpox and rinderpest.
00:36:43 <Bike> a disease of cattle.
00:36:43 <pikhq> ThatOtherPerson: Cattle disease.
00:36:50 <elliott> i think it's pretty great we managed to kill all the smallpoxes
00:36:51 <tswett> Do they also have rinderpest samples lying around somewhere?
00:37:02 <Bike> Hm, I don't think so.
00:37:07 <elliott> The Hindu goddess Shitala was worshipped to prevent or cure smallpox.
00:37:13 <ThatOtherPerson> It's... nice that they got rid of that disease for the cows.
00:37:19 <olsner> "To kill a people, kill their cows.", as they say
00:37:20 <Bike> It was only destroyed in 2011.
00:37:54 <pikhq> It was eradicated due to being a big problem..
00:38:04 <pikhq> Like, there was talk of using it for bioweapons.
00:38:06 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Sometimes people need cows to live.
00:38:42 <tswett> So are there, like, multiple different prion diseases? Caused by different prions?
00:38:59 <tswett> Do all of them mainly affect the nervous system?
00:39:15 <kmc> if you want polio you can just go to pakistan or nigeria
00:39:18 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: Necessarily need, sometimes.
00:39:40 <tswett> Is that just a massive coincidence or what...
00:39:45 <tswett> Maybe all the prions are homologous or something.
00:39:49 <elliott> kmc: i've always wanted polio
00:40:48 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, might be a particular feature of the nervous system rather than the prions
00:40:56 <pikhq> Though looking at it, apparently there are documented fungus prion diseases.
00:41:20 <Bike> It's probably like how many if not most useful toxins are neurotoxins of some sort.
00:41:24 <tswett> In fungi, prion diseases cause the organism to grow a brain, which then ceases to function.
00:41:33 <Bike> Plus other diseases don't hit the brain so much, because of the barrier.
00:41:34 <pikhq> No. They just cause other issues.
00:41:54 <pikhq> Just much less bad than vertebrate prion diseases.
00:42:42 * Sgeo kept reading prison instread of prion
00:42:46 <tswett> "All known mammalian prion diseases are caused by the so-called prion protein, PrP."
00:42:58 <olsner> and "All known prion diseases affect the structure of the brain or other neural tissue"
00:43:01 <kmc> i read that as PHP
00:43:06 <pikhq> So, it's a *single protein* misfolding? Well that'd do it.
00:43:11 <tswett> So... does it misfold in multiple different self-propagating ways?
00:43:18 <kmc> and I was not surprised to read that PHP was responsible for mad cow disease
00:43:22 <pikhq> tswett: Apparently.
00:43:43 <tswett> "The precise structure of the prion is not known, though they can be formed by combining PrPC, polyadenylic acid, and lipids in a Protein Misfolding Cyclic Amplification (PMCA) reaction."
00:43:45 <Bike> tertiary protein structure is pretty fucked so
00:43:47 <tswett> That's a good idea. We should do that.
00:44:04 <ThatOtherPerson> I used to think PHP was great. Then I wrote a website in it.
00:44:42 <Sgeo> I used to think PHP was 'the way' to do stuff on the web
00:44:48 <Sgeo> As in, everyone used PHP
00:44:55 <Bike> the one true P
00:44:59 <Sgeo> I have this weird mentality of wanting to know what, actually, is used
00:45:18 <Bike> Sgeo: mostly visual basic, some opencobol
00:45:20 <Sgeo> What is 'the language' for desktop applications
00:45:37 <tswett> Objective-C, of course.
00:45:45 <tswett> At least, I think that's what Apple wants people to use for the Mac? I'm not sure.
00:45:53 <tswett> Does Objective-C have advantages over C++?
00:46:07 <tswett> By the way, the second worst thing ever is Objective-C++.
00:46:32 <tswett> Objective-C is C with objects. C++ is C with objects. Objective-C++ is C with objects, with a second, completely incompatible type of objects.
00:46:40 <elliott> C++ isn't C with objects at all
00:46:43 <tswett> The worst thing ever is, of course, Hitler.
00:47:11 <tswett> All right. Objective-C is C with objects. C++ is C with lots of stuff, including objects. Objective-C++ is C with lots of stuff, including objects, and objects.
00:47:17 <Bike> Where's xiuquan in this scale
00:47:30 <tswett> ThatOtherPerson: see, I said that Objective-C++ is not as bad as Hitler.
00:47:38 <tswett> That means I automatically *win* the argument.
00:48:39 <kmc> someone in ##crypto was complaining that it's hard to find good programmers in .no
00:48:42 <Bike> well he won it anyway
00:48:44 <kmc> they aren't part of the EU
00:48:57 <kmc> i don't know if it's hard to get work visas for EU people
00:49:59 <shachaf> "Citizens of EU/EEA countries (including the UK) do not need a work permit in Norway"
00:50:09 <shachaf> http://www.norway.org.uk/Embassy/faq/moving/
00:51:17 <kmc> it's two object systems in the same language, for sure
00:51:25 <kmc> since the ObjC and C++ object systems are very different
00:51:34 <kmc> yes, it's Not Recommended
00:51:39 <Bike> clearly we need message passing in C++
00:51:46 <kmc> i'm sure boost has a library for that
00:51:48 <Sgeo> Well, other languages have multiple object systems, but not included standard
00:51:48 <olsner> my impression is that norway is boring, cold and expensive, while not actually paying *that* much considering how expensive it is (speaking of programmers in norway)
00:52:01 <Sgeo> (Well, Tcl 8.6 now has a standard OO system)
00:52:01 <zzo38> Well, I think GCC does support Objective-C and Objective-C++, so you can still write program in it and make it work, but for many things C is good enough.
00:52:02 <elliott> olsner: and what is sweden
00:52:15 <Bike> says something about clos, goes back to reading about diem being a shithead
00:52:23 <zzo38> I suppose you might need Objective-C++ if you somehow need to use all of those features mixed up?
00:52:24 <olsner> elliott: less boring, less cold and less expensive than norway
00:52:42 <olsner> how much less can be argued
00:53:16 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: MERRILY IN ICE CREAM LAND).
00:53:31 <tswett> I wonder what the smallest self-powered flying machine is.
00:53:43 <olsner> elliott: insufficient data
00:54:04 <Bike> There are dragonfly bots that are pretty small.
00:54:35 <tswett> It looks like the RoboBee (which is apparently the smallest flying machine, but is not self-powered) uses flapping wings.
00:55:13 <tswett> Capable of flying without an external power supply for some amount of time.
00:55:29 <Bike> paper airplane
00:56:39 <tswett> But yeah, let's say that "flying" must involve propelling itself upward and increasing the total of its potential and kinetic energy (but not necessarily at the same time).
00:57:02 <Phantom__Hoover> tswett, some small volume of helium or something i should think
00:57:04 <tswett> I guess rocks can do that, too.
00:57:19 <tswett> Toss a rock upward into an air stream that is also moving upward.
00:57:59 <Phantom__Hoover> if you mean "able to support itself on its own aerodynamic lift in still air" then idk
00:58:12 <tswett> Yeah, I like that definition.
00:58:48 <tswett> Though I think helium still satisfies that definition, doesn't it?
00:59:11 <Sgeo> Now that a security hole in a third-party service has been fixed, I wonder if it's ethical to reveal it
00:59:20 <tswett> Sgeo: why wouldn't it?
00:59:21 <Sgeo> Or at least, supposedly fixed. Sure looks fixed.
00:59:55 <tswett> I guess it's a valid question. I'm not totally sure. My watch needs a new battery.
01:00:58 <olsner> what about antigravity? that should count imo
01:01:14 <tswett> Do helicopter rotors count as antigravity?
01:01:26 <pikhq> Does "no" count as "yes"?
01:02:36 <tswett> How about magicopters?
01:03:11 <tswett> That's not a portmanteau of "magic" and "helicopter"; that's actually how the word would be formed from Greek.
01:03:17 <Phantom__Hoover> imo my definition is going to give the most interesting answers anyway
01:03:18 <olsner> I think helicopter rotors are aerodynamic not antigravitic
01:03:22 <tswett> From "magikos" and "pteros".
01:03:52 <Phantom__Hoover> i mean, you want to know what the limit of miniaturisation of planes/helicopters/birds is, right
01:03:55 <kmc> <kmc> my impression is that there are a lot of good programmers in .fi <kmc> but maybe just abnormally many of them are on IRC :)
01:03:56 <tswett> What is antigravity, anyway? The reduction of the gravitational force exerted on an object?
01:04:05 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoPplpBPQxQ
01:04:17 <tswett> I imagine there are abnormally many Finns on IRC.
01:04:31 <tswett> RAISE YOUR HANDS, FINNS!
01:04:54 <Bike> if you want a 'limit of miniaturization' there's always, you know, insects
01:05:13 <tswett> I wonder what the smallest possible flying machine is.
01:05:25 <kmc> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/11/30/how-fairy-wasps-cope-with-being-smaller-than-amoebas/
01:05:41 <olsner> Bike: flying insects are above that limit of miniaturization, hth
01:05:48 <kmc> 200 μm long wasp
01:05:54 <tswett> I wonder if you could make one that's just, like, the size of a typical protein.
01:06:00 <Sgeo> Smaller than an amoeba... a single cell..?
01:06:02 <kmc> which makes it smaller than many single-celled organisms
01:06:12 <kmc> it destroys most of its cell nuclei to save space
01:06:15 <Sgeo> Are amoebas particularly large?
01:06:40 <tswett> And I guess so are Paramecium?
01:06:52 <Bike> there are single celled organisms that can "fly" because at that scale gravity isn't the prevailing force
01:07:24 <kmc> giant squid nerve cell is 12 meters long
01:07:39 <tswett> I guess a sufficiently small object would have a difficult time determining which way is down.
01:08:09 <Bike> you have nerve axons in you that are like a meter long right now
01:08:18 <tswett> So, as far as mammals go, humans are broken in at least one way.
01:08:22 <Phantom__Hoover> there's also the point that for sufficiently small values of 'machine' you can probably stay aloft on brownian motion alone
01:08:29 <tswett> We can't make vitamin C. That part is broken.
01:08:40 <Bike> christ, this thing still have several thousand neurons? that's way more than a nematode
01:08:42 <tswett> So that makes me wonder, are there any mammals that aren't broken in some way?
01:08:48 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: yeah, that's what i meant with the single cells.
01:08:52 <Bike> tswett: you have a strange idea of 'broken'.
01:09:18 <Bike> Yeah. How is not making vitamin c a problem?
01:09:49 <Bike> And too much vitamin c makes you sick too, so what?
01:10:03 <Bike> Are we broken for not being autotrophic?
01:10:07 <tswett> Do some animals suffer from vitamin C excess, sometimes?
01:10:08 <Phantom__Hoover> mammals are broken because they can't generate their own energy with no external input
01:10:10 <olsner> some squid have axons that are wider than a millimeter
01:10:24 <Bike> basically what ph said
01:10:25 <coppro> so I realized why this channel is amazing
01:10:29 <coppro> it's in a perpetual flamewar
01:10:38 <Bike> coppro: no it's not
01:10:41 <tswett> By "broken", I mean "lacking some adaptation which the great majority of mammals have".
01:10:59 <olsner> iirc the humboldt squid wins in axon diameter
01:11:05 <Bike> You're... not going to get far on that criterion.
01:11:18 <tswett> olsner: what's its axon diameter?
01:11:29 <Bike> Well. No. Are you expecting some kind of mammal conglomerate?
01:11:31 <kmc> plants aren't autotrophic either, they've just imprisoned chloroplasts to do the dirty work
01:11:37 <kmc> mammal mafia
01:11:41 <Bike> That would entail a lot of adaptations that are pointless for various niches, too...
01:11:55 <kmc> our album covers would just be big photos of breasts
01:12:01 <kmc> i hear that kind of thing sells pretty well
01:12:05 <Bike> I mean, personally, I'm pretty okay with female humans not having pseudopenises.
01:12:12 <elliott> kmc: i saw them open for port authority once
01:12:15 <pikhq> By "broken", you should mean "have the gene for it mutated in such a way that it doesn't function."
01:12:22 <pikhq> Bike: I prefer real penises, so yeah.
01:12:29 <Bike> pikhq: have you ever boned a hyena
01:12:36 <pikhq> And I don't want to.
01:12:37 <Bike> imo try it out
01:12:46 <kmc> D: <--- this is my hyena boning face
01:13:00 <Bike> i hope you all know about hyena reproduction because it's pretty amazing
01:13:14 <tswett> Indeed, the proto-mammal probably had tons and tons of adaptive traits. Pretty much the only way a mammal could have all of the proto-mammal's adaptations would be to, like, not have evolved.
01:13:20 <pikhq> I've even talked about it with a biologist.
01:13:22 <tswett> pikhq: but yeah, I like that definition of "broken".
01:13:34 <tswett> Hyenas are carnivorans, right? Are they dogoids or catoids?
01:13:38 <Bike> Well, my not-making-vitamin-c genes are working just fine
01:13:49 <pikhq> Feliforms, actually.
01:13:59 <tswett> Huh. So they are catoids.
01:14:07 <pikhq> Their dog-like traits are apparently just convergent evolution.
01:14:18 <Sgeo> What episode of new Doctor Who should I watch
01:14:21 <Sgeo> Somewhat bored right now
01:14:24 <olsner> tswett: iirc all of the big axon diameters are "like over a millimeter"
01:14:31 <olsner> you'll have to repeat my research to get more specific numbers :)
01:14:49 <tswett> What taxonomic rank is Carnivora?
01:14:58 <tswett> And, for that matter, Mammalia?
01:15:03 <pikhq> Who cares, the ranks don't mean jack. :P
01:15:14 <Bike> pikhq's an experienced taxonomist i see
01:15:18 <kmc> animalia may rule the day in #esoteric but fungi will have its revenge!
01:15:27 <Bike> mammalia is a subgroup of vertebrata, which is a subgroup of chordata
01:15:31 <tswett> Carnivora is an order in the class Mammalia.
01:15:34 <kmc> fungot: is Dickinsonia an animal or a fungus?
01:15:34 <fungot> kmc: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this world are places like that. a peaceful. hah! you think you are? coming and going out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
01:15:36 <Bike> can't be assed to remember the ranks
01:15:41 <Sgeo> I should continue watching season 1 or something
01:15:43 <tswett> Bike: are they normal subgroups?
01:16:23 <Sgeo> Meh, I have other things I could be doing
01:16:26 <Sgeo> Reading about web sec
01:16:38 <tswett> Sgeo: how's your life going, by the way?
01:16:48 <elliott> the exciting frontier of reading about web sec
01:17:02 <Sgeo> Feels like it's better now that I can spend money on what I want
01:17:22 <tswett> Oh right, do you have a job now?
01:17:34 <Bike> oh right, germ layers
01:17:39 <Bike> stupid hierarchy
01:17:40 <kmc> Sgeo: you might enjoy http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/yahh/ (from the tangled web author)
01:18:08 <elliott> is this a metaphor for websec
01:18:08 <olsner> fungot: who's really a tricycle?
01:18:08 <fungot> olsner: you! take! we find! help! no human's gonna talk we had soldiers searching for! i've come to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!
01:18:13 <Bike> soon, the quatrosomia will evolve, and destroy us all
01:18:19 <Sgeo> kmc, my browser window is too small...
01:18:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:18:29 <Bike> with their three asses, we will know no peace
01:18:44 <Bike> chrono trigger
01:18:45 <kmc> Sgeo: well make it bigger
01:18:47 <Bike> good guess though
01:19:03 <Phantom__Hoover> olsner, this is where that sword alone can't stop came from
01:19:10 <fungot> Phantom__Hoover: is the gate key okay!! get' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now...
01:19:20 <kmc> ^style enron
01:19:20 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
01:19:23 <kmc> fungot: lets' get high
01:19:24 <fungot> kmc: at the time, you mentioned the party on december 03, 2000
01:19:28 <Bike> some kind of past fling with fungot, no wonder you get death threats ph
01:19:29 <fungot> Bike: rate is not what we don't you talk that that the their site did not do any days next years training... it's an accepted practice on thursday we traded 850) 224-9634 and obtain instructions as to the shipper of any provision of the price to the legislature the generators to the internet for free.
01:19:44 <Sgeo> It did misjudge though
01:21:31 <kmc> the targets you're shooting at are links with a:visited { border-color: pink; }
01:21:52 <kmc> so it can tell which ones you can see, by which ones you click on
01:22:16 <Sgeo> So if you misclick and hit an invisible target, it might think you've been to websites you've never been to
01:23:20 <Bike> "Your browser window is too small. Try at least 900 x 750 or so." not even possible, grand
01:23:35 <kmc> Phantom__Hoover: the example in The Tangled Web is a "captcha" consisting of a 7-segment display made out of links, so the number you type in indicates which sites you've visited
01:23:41 <elliott> Bike: how tiny is your monitor...
01:24:03 <kmc> anyway i like these hacks because they involve covertly exfiltrating information THROUGH THE USER'S OWN BRAIN
01:24:30 <tswett> So you know that xkcd question about the resistors and a knight's move?
01:25:16 <Koen_> is that the physics problem he uses to kill a physicist crossing the road?
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01:26:16 <Koen_> I have a feeling that whether the two points are a knight's move away or just one square away doesn't change much to the complexity of the problem
01:26:34 <tswett> Apparently the answer is 4/pi - 1/2.
01:26:59 <Phantom___Hoover> Koen_, making it a square away adds an extra symmetry to the problem
01:26:59 <Koen_> AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE YOU
01:27:34 <Phantom___Hoover> cf. any attempt at deriving useful electrodynamics from maxwell's equations
01:27:36 <tswett> The symmetry group of the original graph is the cyclic group of order 2.
01:27:45 <Koen_> still there's an infinity of possible paths for the electricity
01:27:49 <tswett> And the symmetry group of the one-square-away graph is the Klein four-group.
01:28:22 <tswett> That's not the same thing?
01:28:54 <tswett> So yeah. C_2 and D_2, I guess.
01:29:18 <coppro> ARE WE TALKING ABOUT ALGEBRAIC GRAPH THEORY?
01:29:23 <Phantom___Hoover> Koen_, right but you don't need to consider as many different infinities of possible paths, if that makes any sense
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01:30:25 <Koen_> I don't know it really looks like a lot of possible paths
01:30:48 <tswett> Well, the number of paths is...
01:30:52 <tswett> Do infinitely long paths count?
01:31:46 <olsner> yes, but infinitely little (or there wouldn't be a limit)
01:31:54 <coppro> tswett: how do you sensibly define infinitely long paths?
01:32:16 <Sgeo> Why would a site like, say, PutLocker have links to localhost?
01:32:53 <tswett> coppro: a pair of infinite sequences of nodes, where adjacent nodes are adjacent (...so to speak), the first sequence begins at A, and the second sequence begins at B.
01:33:09 <Sgeo> My gf left apache running for a while by accident and the access logs seem to suggest that Putlocker referred to stuff on localhost
01:33:29 <tswett> Or maybe you have to make the sequences' limit points be the same.
01:33:38 <tswett> Where the permissible limit points are all the nodes, and infinity.
01:33:49 <coppro> this is a two-dimensional grid
01:34:09 <tswett> The infinitely-far-away-from-A infinity.
01:34:16 <Phantom___Hoover> http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath668/kmath668.htm if anyone's not reading it right now
01:34:24 <kmc> oh http://lcamtuf.blogspot.com/2013/05/some-harmless-old-fashioned-fun-with-css.html is the writeup about that
01:34:30 <tswett> A sequence has a limit point at infinity if and only if its distance from A approaches infinity.
01:34:47 <coppro> tswett: that's factually incorrect
01:35:41 -!- kmc has set topic: IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING NASTY! | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
01:35:51 <coppro> tswett: try some multivariable calculus and then come back, mmkay
01:40:22 <tswett> I can't just define limit points at infinity however I want?
01:40:36 <coppro> but the thing you described is not a limit point at infinity
01:40:45 <coppro> and non-standard definitions suck
01:40:51 <coppro> especially one with such terrible properties
01:50:31 <kmc> are we really a constant flamewar? that's the opposite of how i think of this channel
01:50:54 <tswett> So what's the correct definition of a limit point at infinity?
01:52:05 <tswett> Is there a countable Hausdorff topology on the integers?
01:52:14 <tswett> Where a countable Hausdorff topology is a topology that is countable and Hausdorff.
01:52:45 <elliott> kmc: more like a constant lamewar!!!!!!
01:53:27 <kmc> elliott: fuck off and die in a hole, hth
01:54:12 <coppro> tswett: really? I thought countable Hausdorff topologies were integral domains of finite cardinality
01:55:14 <Phantom___Hoover> tswett, does countable mean first-countable or something else here
01:55:35 <coppro> first-countable? what?
01:55:37 <tswett> Uh, it means just plain countable, I guess.
01:56:05 <Sgeo> kmc, how dare you suggest we're a constant flamewar! That's the most ins... ok, I'm sorry, I'm bad at flaming people
01:56:32 <Bike> i already did that joke sgeo!
01:56:58 <coppro> wait, maybe locally countable?
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01:58:07 <coppro> Phantom__Hoover: stop imposting
01:58:22 <Phantom__Hoover> wait, how is second-countable a stronger condition than first-countable
01:58:26 <olsner> I'm still curious about the flamewar thing, where's this supposed flamewar?
02:00:14 <tswett> Hm. I think that Hausdorffness means that given any two finite, disjoint collections of elements of the space, there is an open set containing every element of the first collection and no element of the second.
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02:01:31 <tswett> Ooh, maybe I've got it. The rational numbers where the open sets are unions of open intervals with rational endpoints... nope, there are uncountably many of those.
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02:03:03 <tswett> How about, mmm... the open sets are all sets of the form { a + bn | n \in N }? No, that obviously doesn't satisfy the union criterion... or the intersection criterion, either.
02:03:40 <tswett> How about saying that the open sets are the periodic sets? There are only countably many of those.
02:03:58 <tswett> Do they satisfy the union criterion... nope, pretty sure they don't.
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02:05:43 <tswett> Consider the set of all multiples of perfect squares.
02:06:19 <tswett> Clearly that's a union of periodic sets, but it's not periodic.
02:08:23 <tswett> All right, there must be infinitely many open sets, so any basis for the topology must have infinitely many elements... I don't think that helps.
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02:16:18 <coppro> tswett: for every pair of integers, there must exist open sets that separate the two
02:16:49 <tswett> Yup. That's what "Hausdorff" means, isn't it?
02:16:51 <coppro> Let O_n be an open set containing n but not n+1.
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02:21:17 <tswett> So, using infinite union, we can, for any n, find an open set containing all integers less than n.
02:21:35 <tswett> Indeed, given any set, it has an open superset.
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02:21:58 <tswett> ...That fact is completely trivial.
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02:24:45 <tswett> coppro: yeah, I don't got it yet.
02:26:02 <coppro> you can biject the integers and the open sets
02:28:05 <tswett> All right. O_n is an injection Z -> tau. So the important thing here must be a surjection Z -> tau, or an injection tau -> Z?
02:28:27 <tswett> I feel like I should be able to do something akin to Cantor's diagonalization argument here.
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02:43:47 <kmc> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protocol is sort of an example of a zero-knowledge proof that isn't probabilistic
02:46:42 <kmc> ofc there's still a probabilistic element in that an attacker can guess the password or the ephemeral private keys
02:47:03 <kmc> but the attacker doesn't get to make another guess without another interaction with the real client or server
02:54:32 <tswett> coppro: ##math hasn't managed to solve this problem yet.
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02:58:41 <coppro> I was too lazy to actually solve it myself
02:58:49 <coppro> but the phd student in the room did it so meh
03:09:08 <tswett> coppro: all right, a guy in ##math found a solution.
03:09:33 <tswett> In a Hausdorff space, given an infinite open set, you can find two disjoint open subsets of it, one of which is infinite.
03:09:53 <tswett> Using this, you can create an infinite sequence of pairwise disjoint open sets.
03:10:04 <tswett> And, using that, you can find uncountably many open sets.
03:10:30 <coppro> the other way is to define S_n such that n \in S_n but k \notin S_n for k < n
03:10:37 <coppro> (by finite intersection)
03:12:14 <coppro> then for any finite set, reorder so that it comes first, and then take \bigcup_{n > k} S_n
03:12:26 <coppro> (given that the fixed set is all integers <= k)
03:12:34 <coppro> so you have every cofinite set
03:12:43 <coppro> but the cofinite topology is not Hausdorff
03:13:01 <coppro> then I forget the last step
03:13:06 <Koen_> madb4rd: ok well I definitely find kick-ass way better than super
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04:15:16 <pikhq> Hmm. I wonder if anyone actually installed Windows 95 from 5.25" disks.
04:17:06 <coppro> can we ban him already
04:17:17 <coppro> he's personally responsible for an entire hour of no one saying anything
04:17:20 <coppro> what the hell happened
04:17:54 <kmc> MY LOVE FOR YOU IS LIKE A TRUCK BERZERKER
04:18:13 <elliott> well it's obviously over now
04:18:23 <coppro> but Zerker deserves to be banned for it
04:18:30 <elliott> are you suggesting banning someone for having connection issues
04:18:31 <coppro> also for bouncing in and out every 2 minutes
04:18:43 <elliott> they were probably not even at their computer at the time
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04:42:51 <kmc> shachaf: TIL that calling CPUID from 32-bit fPIC code is tricky because the compiler reserves %ebx for the base whatever pointer
04:43:34 <Fiora> you just have to mark it as clobbered, right?
04:43:48 <Fiora> oh. because inline asm constraints.
04:43:58 <Fiora> it won't let you go load ebx back later... eeesh that's frustrating
04:44:27 <Fiora> I guess you could do like push ebx; cpuid; mov ebx, %0; pop ebx;
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04:44:51 <kmc> can you spot what's wrong with this code (it's super subtle and took me a while):
04:44:54 <kmc> asm volatile("push %%ebx; cpuid; mov %%ebx, %0; pop %%ebx" :
04:44:57 <kmc> "=m"(id[0]), "=d"(id[1]), "=c"(id[2]) : "a"(0) : "memory");
04:45:17 <kmc> (i say shachaf: out of Tradition but I'm really talking to the channel at large)
04:46:01 <Fiora> it doesn't output eax?
04:46:39 <shachaf> shachaf: Well, naturally. It's Tradition.
04:47:25 <kmc> Fiora: CPUID(EAX = 0) puts the processor brand string in EBX,EDX,ECX
04:47:31 <kmc> "GenuineIntel" or whatever
04:47:49 <kmc> copumpkin++
04:48:18 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID#EAX.3D0:_Get_vendor_ID has a list
04:48:23 <kmc> "AMDisbetter!"
04:48:36 <Fiora> it doesn't mark eax as clobbered? I'm not sure
04:48:43 <copumpkin> I had a cyrix "200+" back in the days when I first tinkered with cpuid
04:48:52 <kmc> Fiora: eax is an input so that's ok
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04:49:26 <pikhq> mov %%ebx, %0 looks suspicious.
04:50:22 <pikhq> Hmm, no, that seems right?
04:51:08 <pikhq> Oh, wait, you said *PIC* code.
04:51:18 <pikhq> id[0] needs to be indexed relative to the base pointers.
04:51:28 <kmc> getting close, yeah
04:51:34 <kmc> but in my case it was a function-local variable
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04:51:54 <pikhq> Okay, so it's passing in a stack offset.
04:52:09 <pikhq> And when you push ebx, the stack offset is off.
04:52:57 <pikhq> push ebx; cpuid; mov ebx, eax; pop ebx
04:53:29 <pikhq> And obviously specify "=a" as an out param.
04:54:58 <shachaf> Oops, am I running Debian Stable now?
04:55:28 <pikhq> Clobbers the EAX thing, but if you don't care, you don't care.
04:57:01 <kmc> anyway that took me a good long while to figure out
04:57:19 <pikhq> Makes sense. You wouldn't even look at that unless you knew there was a problem *right there*.
04:57:29 <pikhq> And yeah, it is tricky.
04:57:32 <Fiora> nice one spotting it
04:58:19 <Fiora> doing stack manipulation in inline asm sounds really tricky
04:58:32 <Fiora> kmc: a related thing I remember is, like, let's say you have inline asm that does something like
04:58:41 <Fiora> and you set up all the constraints accordingly and do it all correctly
04:58:49 <Fiora> it'll break horribly on x86_64 anyways.
05:00:00 <Sgeo> I wonder how many people dislike KDE and use Chrome, and dislike MS and IE and use AJAXy websites
05:00:13 <kmc> Sgeo: essentially every human being on planet earth
05:00:25 <kmc> also everyone on the international space station
05:00:27 <Jafet> shachaf: running debian stable transports you five years into the past
05:00:54 <kmc> ♫ danger zone!
05:01:40 <Fiora> because the function can use the area 128 bytes below the stack
05:01:46 <Fiora> for temporary variables
05:01:52 <Fiora> and 'call' writes to that area, possibly overwriting some of them
05:01:59 <Fiora> and gcc doesn't know that you did that
05:02:13 <Sgeo> kmc, hmm, I'm confused. I don't think most human beings know what KDE is? Or are you referring to the general concept of disliking X but using Y that's derived in some way from X?
05:02:19 <Fiora> I don't know if there's any way to fix it other than just disabling the red zone >_<
05:02:26 <Fiora> or like. sub esp, 128 call add esp, 128
05:02:53 <kmc> how does the red zone work again? >_<
05:03:06 <Fiora> I think it's just "you're allowed to use the area down to esp-128"
05:03:22 <Fiora> so that functions don't have to do 'sub esp' if they're leaf functions
05:03:30 <Fiora> and their temps fit in 128 bytes
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05:03:42 <Fiora> it's only on unix64 though, not windows, I think
05:04:02 <Fiora> win64 has its own weird thing, the "shadow space", I think
05:04:20 <Fiora> which I think is that the stack looks like this:
05:04:37 <Fiora> [return address] [32 empty bytes (shadow space)] [stack param0] [stack param1] [...]
05:04:59 <Fiora> so to call you'd do push push... sub esp, 32, call .... add esp, 32, pop, pop
05:05:44 <Fiora> it also has a weird thing where um... xmm6-xmm15 are caller-save
05:05:49 <Fiora> but unix64 doesn't
05:08:39 <kmc> i know so little about windows
05:08:57 <pikhq> kmc: Hmm. I'm not sure if there's a way to do that thing with just inline asm on x86 with only one cpuid call.
05:09:35 <pikhq> Well. If you want to read eax, ebx, ecx, and edx.
05:10:15 <Fiora> kmc: I really don't know why they came up with their own calling convention @_@ maybe it was just an independent development thing
05:10:24 <kmc> yeah you can save in esi / edi, or save ebx in a C variable rather than using push/pop
05:10:25 <Fiora> I've had to deal with it just because my code has to run on windows so >_<
05:10:43 <kmc> msft also has their own 32-bit calling convention don't they
05:10:52 <Fiora> I don't think so? I think it just uses cdecl
05:10:53 <shachaf> they have many 32-bit calling conventions
05:10:57 <pikhq> push %ebx; cpuid; mov %ebx, %esi; pop %ebx // Yeah, that should work.
05:11:00 <kmc> i thought that C++ code on windows passes 'this' in a register and everything else on the stack
05:11:13 <Fiora> C++ is different I think
05:11:16 <Fiora> like everyone has their own C++ ABI
05:11:21 <Fiora> is there even a standard one? I don't think there is
05:11:30 <Fiora> I remember agner has some gigantic document on various C++ ABIs from different compilers
05:11:30 <kmc> there is for linux now, ish
05:11:47 <pikhq> Windows doesn't even have a single C ABI though.
05:11:55 <kmc> IA-64 has a architecture standard C++ ABI and I think g++ has officially adopted it for other arches too, on Linux anyway
05:12:28 <kmc> http://refspecs.linux-foundation.org/cxxabi-1.83.html there is some terrifying shit in here
05:13:12 <pikhq> There's cdecl, stdcall, and fastcall in standard C use on Win32.
05:13:53 <Fiora> cdecl's the default though, I think?
05:13:54 <pikhq> cdecl is what you expect, stdcall is callee cleanup, fastcall is callee cleanup with 2 registers used for arguments.
05:13:58 <pikhq> cdecl is the default.
05:14:07 <Fiora> I don't think fastcall is even standard? I thought it was a compiler-specific thing
05:14:13 <pikhq> But the Win32 libraries use stdcall.
05:14:20 <kmc> linux kernel uses 3 register parameters on i386
05:14:24 <Fiora> yeah, but like you have to write STDCALL in the function definition right?
05:14:29 <pikhq> *Microsoft* fastcall is standard.
05:14:47 <pikhq> Microsoft *and* GCC support it there.
05:15:28 <pikhq> GCC tries to be able to compile most any Windows code.
05:15:43 <pikhq> So it's got a few weird contortions for Microsoft's stuff.
05:15:51 <kmc> they tried so hard and got so far, but in the end, it doesn't even matter
05:15:55 <Fiora> it can't do microsoft inline asm can it?
05:16:18 <zzo38> I think some of the Microsoft extensions in GCC can be used even if not compiling in Windows.
05:16:41 <kmc> at one point I had mingw Windows CE MIPS target cross GCC on my Linux laptop
05:16:58 <pikhq> What's more important to them is being able to handle Windows headers.
05:17:09 <pikhq> (than just strict bug-for-bug compatibility)
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05:24:38 <mnoqy> i accidentally opened irssi twice
05:31:42 <Sgeo> Wouldn't that be
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05:34:28 <shachaf> this time you've gone too far mnoqy
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05:42:28 <Lymia> Logical conclusion
05:46:57 <ion> ::)) http://growabrain.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/four_eyes_illusion_1.jpg
05:48:31 <ion> http://candies.aniwey.net/
05:50:20 <kmc> candies.candiesPerSecond = 50
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05:52:35 <kmc> killed by goblins
05:53:35 <kmc> `pastelog ghosts
05:55:21 <shachaf> kmc: what should i do in ny while i'm there other than all the things i'm going to do
05:56:13 <shachaf> we'll be going to niagara falls for two days apparently
05:56:45 <kmc> visit the high line park, visit roosevelt island, eat at Sarita's Macaroni & Cheese, eat at Mamoun's Falafel, these are pretty much the only things I did when I lived in NYC
05:56:48 <kmc> rode some trains
05:57:11 <shachaf> Hey, I ate at Mamoun's Falafel!
05:57:22 <shachaf> Was that the one I went to with lexande and others?
05:57:23 <coppro> shachaf: like, this week?
05:57:24 <kmc> oh!!!!! eat xi'an famous foods
05:57:30 <kmc> though maybe harder for vegetarian
05:57:33 <coppro> shachaf: where else are you going to be?
05:59:06 <shachaf> The latter looks a little bit non-vegetarian.
05:59:59 <shachaf> Why Sarita's Macarony & Cheese?
06:00:53 <kmc> it's tasty
06:01:02 <kmc> i don't actually know good restaurants
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06:01:25 <kmc> i hear Shake Shack is p. good
06:01:51 <shachaf> I think I went there with sbahra once?
06:01:58 <kmc> Shanghai Cuisine on Bayard St is good for soup dumplings
06:02:00 <shachaf> Or maybe it was somewhere else.
06:02:07 <kmc> as are some other places
06:02:28 <shachaf> Getting to places from the Bronx is kind of annoying.
06:02:30 <kmc> i should meet more cslounge people
06:02:46 <kmc> i'm bad at people
06:03:01 <kmc> don't know
06:03:31 <shachaf> i met kmc a couple of times but we didn't really say much
06:03:55 <kmc> we could hang out more
06:03:57 <kmc> once i move to SF
06:04:50 <kmc> i haven't even applied for jobs yet
06:05:20 <kmc> but I am searching for jobs only in SF
06:05:23 <kmc> at the moment
06:06:34 <shachaf> Maybe I'll start sending emails etc. when I get back from NY.
06:06:50 <shachaf> The whole process is rather unpleasant. Even replying to people is unpleasant.
06:07:24 <kmc> email sucks
06:07:54 <kmc> shachaf: I would much prefer a job in SF proper but I'm willing to consider elsewhere in the Bay Area if it's really cool work
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06:10:37 <shachaf> Fiora: I think it used to be a lounge-thing at CMU.
06:14:06 <kmc> i don't know yet how picky I can afford to be
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07:38:29 <Vorpal> I'm looking at the list of web sites that have access to my google account. Some entries are a bit weird.
07:38:33 <Vorpal> Like "feedly — Profile Information, Google Reader, Google Reader, Google Reader"
07:44:42 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
07:46:17 <Vorpal> two entries for "Android Login Service", three entries for youtube video deck
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07:58:34 <lambdabot> Taneb: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
07:59:52 <Taneb> @tell ThatOtherPerson that neither rhymes NOR scans. Try again.
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08:44:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: FWIW, "feedly - Profile Information, Google Reader" is all I have for that.
08:45:06 <fizzie> (Also just one Android Login Service.)
08:45:29 <fizzie> Google Chrome and Chromium are separate applications, but I suppose that makes sense.
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09:56:25 <shachaf> kmc: You should read _Impro_ by Keith Johnstone.
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11:20:48 <oklopol> "<tswett> Or maybe you have to make the sequences' limit points be the same." usually you'd use the discrete topology
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11:22:17 <oklopol> "<tswett> So what's the correct definition of a limit point at infinity?" eventually outside any compact set
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11:24:08 <oklopol> so for graphs without topological structure, the path visits each node at most once
11:24:19 <oklopol> oh "limit point" at infinity, not limit
11:24:30 <oklopol> then it's just "visits infinitely many nodes"
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12:00:03 <HackEgo> 742) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cblink <monqy> i will also send you "hi" if you: kite excessively, use mephitic cloud, -yes
12:00:41 <mnoqy> what happened to the good "hi" quote. probably it didn't have "hi" in quotes.
12:00:53 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
12:00:58 <mnoqy> no i deleted that one
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12:01:09 <HackEgo> 308) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352)
12:01:15 <HackEgo> 719) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird \ 742) <Sgeo> hack and back? <Patashu> works on anything much slower than you <monqy> at the cost of: guilt, hating yourself, me sending you the message "hi" <Patashu> am I also forbidden to cast mephitic cloud and cb
12:02:26 <Taneb> I'm in a good mood right now
12:04:42 <Taneb> Mainly because of https://github.com/haskell/cabal/issues/823#issuecomment-17392522
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12:45:01 <Taneb> MY LIBRARY IS USED AS AN EXAMPLE IN A CABAL BUG REPORT
12:46:14 <shachaf> You're promoted from Taneb to Tanea.
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12:49:42 <FireFly> Is that pronounced like "Tanja"?
12:50:04 <Tanea> FireFly: no, the stress is on the e
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12:55:00 <Jafet> Apparently latex only supports four levels of nested bulleted lists
12:55:15 <Jafet> Maybe I need to buy the premium version of latex
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12:59:00 <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
13:00:47 <Tanea> The person I'm talking to has crap scansion!
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13:01:05 <Tanea> "Oh, we all know that / But it's undeniable Tom has the better hat"
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13:05:04 <shachaf> Tanea: Your exercise is to make that work.
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13:08:23 <oerjan> <Tanea> tanAYa <-- not tanEEa?
13:08:51 <Tanea> oerjan: that raises the important question of where is tafar
13:09:43 <oerjan> if there's a reference, pun or former #esoteric regular i'm not getting it.
13:10:39 <oerjan> 12:55:00: <Jafet> Apparently latex only supports four levels of nested bulleted lists
13:10:50 <oerjan> 12:55:15: <Jafet> Maybe I need to buy the premium version of latex
13:11:13 <Tanea> oerjan: in a non-rhotic accent, tanEEa sounds like Ta-near
13:11:14 <oerjan> i think this may be one of the few cases where the word "enterprise" is appropriate.
13:12:16 <oerjan> Jafet: there's probably a package for it somewhere.
13:13:17 <oerjan> `addquote <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
13:13:20 <oklopol> so a couple of days ago i tried to prove that there exists a constant e such that e^x = 1 + x + x^2/2 + x^3/3! + ...
13:13:21 <HackEgo> 1031) <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
13:13:49 <oklopol> is the idea to show that there exists a constant e such that De^x = e^x
13:14:12 <oklopol> and then to show that the function has a taylor series and then it can only be that
13:14:58 <oerjan> oklopol: first step, define a^x ?
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13:15:31 <oklopol> for for rational x and show suitable continuity
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13:16:13 <oerjan> my hunch is that dependent on how you do that, what you want may follow relatively trivially from exp(x+y) = exp(x)*exp(y) and continuity
13:16:54 <oerjan> since afair there are all kinds of different paths you can take to make all the ^ exp e and ln stuff fit together in a provable way
13:17:23 <Tanea> I've had this nick for what? Half an hour?
13:17:27 <Tanea> And already it's in the quotedb
13:17:28 <oklopol> do you have any sort of idea where one could find this stuff
13:18:19 <oerjan> in a relatively stringent introduction book to calculus?
13:18:48 <oerjan> (as in, for people who want to be mathematicians, not people who want to be engineers)
13:19:18 <oerjan> Tanea: it's not my fault that you cannot keep your humor to one nick
13:21:13 <Phantom___Hoover> you know, i never worked out what integration had to do with areas until like 3 years after i learnt how to do it
13:21:50 <Tanea> In other news nobody can go to the picnic
13:21:51 <oerjan> oklopol: my hunch is that a^x for rational x is precisely the kind of path that fits well with my exp(x+y) suggestion.
13:22:58 <oerjan> of course you have to prove that exp(x+y) = exp(x)*exp(y) (by exp i mean the power series of course), but i'm pretty sure i vaguely recall seeing that done directly
13:23:12 <shachaf> Tanea: Wow, it's really hard to match that.
13:23:47 <oerjan> Tanea: clearly you must make the picnic come to them hth
13:24:16 * oerjan suddenly is reminded of the Åsgårdsrei
13:24:16 <oklopol> exp(x+y) = exp(x)*exp(y) this is very elementary
13:24:30 <olsner> Tanea: do you think that's because of the rhyming couplets or because of the picnic?
13:24:31 <oklopol> i didn't really get to looking at the power series yet
13:25:02 <oklopol> don't you just directly multiply the series
13:25:17 <oklopol> and then show that that works because the coefficients grow so effing fast
13:25:29 <oerjan> oklopol: yeah i think so
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13:27:14 <oerjan> oklopol: there is probably an alternative way based on your De^x idea too
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13:29:51 * oerjan finishes his hot^Wlukewarm chocolate
13:29:53 <lambdabot> ThatOtherPerson: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
13:29:59 <lambdabot> Taneb said 5h 30m 7s ago: that neither rhymes NOR scans. Try again.
13:30:14 <olsner> what does it mean for something to scan?
13:30:33 <oerjan> olsner: rythm of syllables, basically
13:31:12 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: i had a feeling that was rong
13:31:18 <Tanea> Like "door" with an n on the end
13:31:31 <oerjan> ThatOtherPerson: that one i did on porpoise.
13:32:14 <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: so which part doesn't rhyme? Perhaps it has to do with our accents :P
13:33:20 <oerjan> olsner: in most modern european languages, that rhythm is based on which syllables are stressed and unstressed - but in ancient latin it was based on which syllables were long and short...
13:34:06 <oerjan> i think japanese does it in another way again. pikhq?`
13:34:32 <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: Also, when I read it it has a meter, but I'm probably scrunging up some of the syllables
13:34:49 <Tanea> Can you message me it again?
13:34:54 <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: not to mention that you get the strangest ideas at 3:00 in the morning :P
13:35:34 <oerjan> (well i know they divide stuff into moras instead of syllables, but i don't know how they define rhythm or if they even do.)
13:36:11 <olsner> I've heard that they don't do stress at all (but that doesn't preclude rhythm of other kinds, I suppose)
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13:38:25 <oerjan> <Tanea> Like "door" with an n on the end <-- and this would be a non-rhotic door, right?
13:38:49 <Tanea> oerjan: I would expect people with a rhotic accent to pronounce the r as appropriate
13:38:55 <olsner> I think it's with a retroflex nasal at the end
13:39:01 <Tanea> I was really commenting on the vowel sounds
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13:39:59 <oerjan> olsner: even when you speak english? that's some scandinavian accent.
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13:41:07 <olsner> oerjan: I haven't noticed whether I ever do that in english or not
13:41:50 <Tanea> shachaf: working on it
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13:46:35 <oklopol> spivak starts by defining log x as the integral of 1/t from 1 to x
13:46:50 <oklopol> apparently the fundamental theorem of calculus has been dealt with at this point
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13:49:29 <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: Jeeves and Wooster
13:49:33 <Tanea> Constant Jeeves and Wooster
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14:06:43 <oklopol> i don't think i considered doing this
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15:09:25 <shachaf> I made it way harder than it needed to be, too.
15:12:51 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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15:13:09 <shachaf> IAOIT............................
15:13:37 <shachaf> You were here when I `olisted.
15:13:43 <shachaf> Do you not have a hilight on Sgeo?
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15:14:03 <shachaf> You can't excite us like that, man.
15:14:43 <Sgeo> Maybe it's early up in my scrollback?
15:14:56 <Sgeo> Is it before the netsplits?
15:15:12 <shachaf> FireFly: Do you even read `olist?
15:16:16 <FireFly> No, I used to but haven't kept ut with it, but it's a great reminder that I should re-read parts of it to get back on track
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15:17:04 <FireFly> (well, the reminder hasn't helped *yet*, but I'm sure I'll get sufficiently annoyed by it soon that I'll go read it)
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15:17:20 <FireFly> what, that's not how olist's supposed to be used?
15:17:43 <shachaf> You should sign up for `olistdeluxe.
15:19:02 <FireFly> I think they were in a desert last time I read oots.. I wonder when that was
15:21:16 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ index.html.1 \ index.html.2 \ index.html.3 \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
15:21:27 <FireFly> I think I'll re-read from page 1
15:21:44 <FireFly> fungot...... where are you?
15:23:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/olist
15:25:21 <FireFly> the *list's ought to have comments in them signifying what they are for
15:25:29 <Sgeo> What's a seed?
15:25:36 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:26:29 <Sgeo> 'Epic spells are spells developed from the ground up using a list of magical ingredients called seeds.'
15:28:01 -!- sivoais has joined.
15:28:09 <tswett> oklopol: isn't "visits infinitely many nodes" the same thing as "gets arbitrarily far from the origin", at least in this case?
15:28:37 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:28:45 <oklopol> well yes, but having limit infinity is not the same as having a limit point at infinite, the way i interpret this
15:28:55 <oklopol> i interpret it as taking the one-point compactification
15:29:21 <oklopol> and taking limits w.r.t. what you get
15:34:13 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has joined.
15:34:29 <AnotherTest> python needs a shorthand for x for x in xs...
15:35:03 <fizzie> I should probably add a highlight for fungot's quit.
15:35:16 <Jafet> `run python -c 'xs = "xs";print [x for x in xs]'
15:35:53 <AnotherTest> Jafet: that's okay, but I seem to be using it alot for in combination with an if statement
15:36:00 -!- fungot has joined.
15:36:08 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: the combinations of scalars. do. not... see mbf.)
15:36:12 <Jafet> `run egrep -o '<title>.*</title>' *.html
15:36:22 <Jafet> `run egrep -o '<title>.*</title>' *.html*
15:36:24 <HackEgo> index.html:<title>Google</title> \ index.html.1:<title></title> \ index.html.2:<title>GitHub · Build software better, together.</title> \ index.html.3:<title>Esolang, the esoteric programming languages wiki</title>
15:37:15 <AnotherTest> `run python -c 'xs = "Xs";print [x for x in xs if x.isupper()]'
15:37:30 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:38:01 <AnotherTest> I'd like to be able to write print [all xs if x.isupper()] or something
15:38:59 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print filter (lambda x: x.isupper()) "Xs"'
15:39:01 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ print filter (lambda x: x.isupper()) "Xs" \ ^ \ SyntaxError: invalid syntax
15:39:12 -!- sivoais has joined.
15:39:19 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print filter((lambda x: x.isupper()), "Xs"')
15:39:21 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ bash: -c: line 0: `python -c 'print filter((lambda x: x.isupper()), "Xs"')'
15:39:27 <Jafet> `run python -c 'print filter((lambda x: x.isupper()), "Xs")'
15:39:31 <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: it's gradually being replaced by HackEgo
15:39:48 <AnotherTest> well I could use filter but it wouldn't make much difference
15:40:20 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
15:40:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Test: not found
15:40:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hello: No such file or directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hello: cannot execute: No such file or directory
15:41:21 <HackEgo> main() { asm("xor %edi, %edi\n" "inc %edi\n" "mov %rsp, %rsi\n" "go: movl $0xb195e2, (%rsi)\n" "rdtsc\n" "and $1, %al\n" "add %al, 2(%rsi)\n" "mov %edi, %eax\n" "xor %edx, %edx\n" "mov $3, %dl\n" "syscall\n" "jmp go"); }
15:41:47 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....@.....@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....l......l........ ............p......p`.....p`.................... .................`.....`............................
15:41:51 <HackEgo> short const main[]={-14520,448,0,18432,-14393,1,0,-29368,3893,0,18432,-15673,14,0,1295,184,0,-15616,25928,27756,8303,28535,27762,8548,10};
15:42:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/factor: is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/factor: cannot execute: Success
15:42:34 <Jafet> `run gcc hello.c -o hello -nostdlib && ./hello
15:42:40 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 000000000040010c \ bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./hello
15:42:54 <Jafet> Why does C suck so much
15:43:00 <HackEgo> bash: ./factor: is a directory
15:43:01 <Jafet> `run gcc hello.c -o hello -Os && ./hello
15:43:03 <shachaf> Tanea: How's the rhyming going?
15:43:15 <Tanea> Well, it still rhymes
15:43:32 <shachaf> Tanea: I mean, making that "couplet" fit in somehow.
15:43:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/wisdom: is a directory \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/wisdom: cannot execute: Success
15:44:11 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
15:44:38 <HackEgo> coppro prefers his nickname, Pooppy.
15:44:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastewisdow: not found
15:44:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:44:55 <HackEgo> ThatOtherPerson? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:45:47 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
15:45:51 <HackEgo> xTI+DQ@5ֵz\2uaz{E^A(*Q-8hZouZc^bB*0>a:vd$ׂR;_dzgYPc'?V0[0fѳM"e)Ipk^#d+,ǭOE}+Os)qBI8c,Dgpyiv- \ .~Yr_7?:BaYjjTW6&lw
15:45:57 <fizzie> `run gcc hello.c -o hello2 -nostdlib -Os -s -Wl,--entry,main && ./hello2; wc -c hello2 # close enough?
15:46:00 <HackEgo> Hello world! \ .bash: line 1: 292 Segmentation fault ./hello2 \ 720 hello2
15:46:15 <shachaf> Tanea: You're responsible for making a FireFly entry. hth
15:46:47 <fizzie> 720 bytes is much less bloaty, but the program probably attempts to ret.
15:46:57 -!- Gregor has joined.
15:47:03 <Tanea> `learn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
15:47:21 <Tanea> AnotherTest: atrip, ngevc
15:47:52 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:48:03 <fizzie> I was expecting Tane`.
15:48:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:48:55 <HackEgo> FIREFLY WAS A SHORT-RUNNING BUT WELL-LOVED SCI-FI TV SERIES RELEASED IN 2003, STARRING NATHAN FILLION AND DIRECTED AND WRITTEN BY JOSS WHEDON!
15:49:24 <Jafet> `run objdump -D hello2 -M intel | sed -e '/hello/,/main>/ d' -e 's/^ \+[0-9a-f]\+:\s\+\([0-9a-f][0-9a-f] \)\+\s\+//'
15:49:42 <HackEgo> valgrind: /usr/lib/valgrind /usr/lib64/valgrind
15:49:57 <HackEgo> bash: valgrind: command not found
15:50:08 <oerjan> <FireFly> I think they were in a desert last time I read oots.. I wonder when that was <-- technically they still are, i think
15:50:50 <Tanea> Last time I read Homestuck there wasn't a disk three
15:51:13 <Tanea> And the chap with the bad fake tan was dead
15:54:33 <shachaf> Tanea: This meter is going to drive me crazy.
15:55:21 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has quit (Quit: Page closed).
15:56:12 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> What are all the bots in this channel?
15:56:19 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
15:56:51 <oerjan> not all are currently present
15:57:04 <Tanea> Pietbot died of cot death
15:57:24 <fungot> FireFly: wonder if there's a fnord for
15:57:41 <jconn> FireFly: |value error: stuff
15:57:54 <oerjan> and this doesn't include glogbot and clog, which are for logging not executing commands (although glogbot accepts !logs i think)
15:58:20 <shachaf> oerjan: That should say: jconn ) , blsqbot !
15:58:34 <Tanea> jconn is J, isn't it
15:59:02 <FireFly> ThatOtherPerson: refer to Tanea's last line
15:59:12 <jconn> AnotherTest: |syntax error
15:59:13 <jconn> AnotherTest: | [1,2,3]
15:59:20 <jconn> AnotherTest: 1 2 3
15:59:47 <FireFly> I don't think that does what you want it to
15:59:56 <oerjan> shachaf: that ) makes fungot's list so awkward to change because it means i need to brainfuck instead of underload
15:59:56 <fungot> oerjan: anyway it was years ago)
16:00:04 <FireFly> http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm might help
16:00:15 <jconn> AnotherTest: |value error: pow
16:00:15 <jconn> AnotherTest: | pow 5 5
16:00:15 <jconn> FireFly: |domain error
16:00:38 <shachaf> oerjan: you could just use HackEgo hth
16:01:10 <AnotherTest> 123456789 ^ 123456789 = infinity, it has been proven!
16:01:27 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:01:27 <jconn> AnotherTest: | 5/0
16:01:40 <FireFly> > 123456789 ^ 123456789 :: Double
16:01:46 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:01:46 <jconn> AnotherTest: | 2 ^ .5
16:02:19 <jconn> AnotherTest: |syntax error
16:02:19 <jconn> AnotherTest: | 123!
16:02:27 <jconn> AnotherTest: 1.21463e205
16:02:27 <oerjan> shachaf: um the prefixes command is on fungot, HackEgo and EgoBot by design.
16:02:28 <fungot> oerjan: in fact, no way to ascertain the " fnord/ mm/ blah
16:02:40 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ), blsqbot !
16:02:43 <jconn> Tanea: 0 5 5 4 2 3 2 1 4 2
16:03:16 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:03:16 <jconn> AnotherTest: | _/_
16:03:22 <jconn> AnotherTest: |domain error
16:03:22 <jconn> AnotherTest: | _/0
16:03:56 <FireFly> Guys, um, I think jconn works in query too
16:04:22 -!- Bike has joined.
16:04:35 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fueue.c \ ul.emm
16:05:11 <oerjan> hm i may not have saved it there
16:05:12 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has joined.
16:05:13 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ etc \ factor \ hbDf \ hello \ hello2 \ hello.c \ hi \ hi.c \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ lib \ maze \ maze.c \ paste \ q \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ testbot \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ Test.o \ wisdom
16:05:25 <HackEgo> awesome \ construct_grams.pl \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ lua \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
16:06:42 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:08:41 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
16:12:39 <Jafet> `run echo 'const short main[] = {18517,58761,49201,49801,49407,51081,3816,0,18432,27749,28524,8236,28535,27762,8548,24074,3762,1295,15536,-207,1295};' > hello.c && gcc hello.c -o hello -nostdlib -Os -s -Wl,--entry,main && ./hello && wc hello
16:12:44 <HackEgo> Hello, world! \ 1 9 712 hello
16:16:23 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:17:08 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:21:40 -!- ThatOtherPersonY has changed nick to ThatOtherPerson.
16:27:11 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
16:28:48 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:34:10 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:34:17 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:34:22 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:35:11 <Tanea> @tell boily can you add ~prefixes to metasepia URGENTLY
16:35:29 <Tanea> @tell boily see fungot, HackEgo, and EgoBot for how it should behave
16:35:30 <fungot> Tanea: unable to authenticate to afs because cache manager is not initialized afsd is not running out as fast as the register set until captured in a
16:38:08 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
16:39:21 <oerjan> Tanea: if it's not a publicly modifiable command it'll just get out of synch hth
16:39:45 -!- Tanea has left ("Leaving").
16:39:51 -!- Tanea has joined.
16:39:58 <Bike> wait who is tanea??
16:40:10 <Tanea> Bike: here's a hint
16:40:10 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:40:21 <Tanea> Who plays Minecraft, Dwarf Fortress, and lives in Hexam?
16:40:29 <Tanea> That's right, I'm elliott
16:40:32 <Bike> ???????????????????????
16:40:47 <shachaf> Tanea: How's the thing going?
16:40:53 <shachaf> Tanea: You *are* doing it, right?
16:41:02 <Tanea> shachaf: of course
16:41:28 <oerjan> `learn Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Hexhal.
16:42:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: g: not found
16:43:58 <FireFly> http://hostcabi.net/domain_misspelling/dwarf-fortress ...this could easily get expensive
16:49:27 -!- sivoais has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:51:40 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:54:56 -!- sivoais has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:55:45 -!- sivoais has joined.
16:56:31 <shachaf> ThatOtherPerson: oklopol.com
16:56:31 <oklopol> how about mycoolwegpabe.com
17:02:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Elater).
17:03:14 <jconn> ThatOtherPerson: 2
17:06:44 <shachaf> kmc: what do you think of jokes like <person> "two women sit next to each other while not talking."
17:07:30 <shachaf> asked to clarify, <person> shachaf: it's funny because women always talk........
17:07:52 <shachaf> what is a reasonable reaction in a situation like that
17:08:58 <Fiora> awkwardly moving away from that person, crying into a pillow, and wishing you could be in a different cosmos, then playing some games or something
17:09:46 <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/IwlSZOr.png
17:10:46 <shachaf> kmc: (Wondering how to reäct in the other channel; I think you talk about this sort of thing sometimes.)
17:11:01 <kmc> Bike: v. cool
17:11:22 <kmc> "I'm calling the cops on you."
17:11:31 <Bike> I never inject.
17:12:33 <kmc> shachaf: maybe http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Good_sexism_comebacks
17:13:41 <Bike> except i like always go with "dude not cool" how creative of me!
17:13:54 <oklopol> is it bad because it's sexist?
17:14:22 <kmc> it's a joke at the expense of women as a group, and one which reinforces stereotypes
17:14:35 <kmc> also it's just not funny at all
17:14:36 <Bike> also it's not really funny anyway?
17:14:57 <Fiora> it's also pretty terribly inaccurate
17:14:59 <shachaf> Q: What group are puns at the expense of?
17:15:04 <shachaf> A: The people who hear them.
17:15:10 <Bike> heh i was gonna say
17:15:18 <kmc> yeah there is Science about this
17:15:34 <shachaf> Yes, someone linked to http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003607.html
17:15:49 <shachaf> Which seems to be sort of beside the point.
17:15:53 <oklopol> are all jokes based on stereotypes unfunny or just women ones
17:16:07 <Fiora> pretty much all of them, really
17:16:28 <kmc> oklopol: i think a joke can be funny and socially unacceptable at the same time
17:16:31 <kmc> but this one isn't funny
17:16:49 <Fiora> though it's probably not-okay for groups which one can't really voluntarily be part of
17:17:08 <kmc> stereotypes set up expectations and good humor is generally about subverting expectations in an unexpected way
17:17:09 <Fiora> e.g. making jokes about bronies, okay. making jokes about gay people, really quite not okay
17:17:12 <kmc> rather than just reinforcing them
17:17:18 <Fiora> but yeah, what kmc said really <.<
17:17:35 <FireFly> What about jokes about right-wing supporters, are they okay?
17:18:24 <FireFly> I didn't mean to kill the channel >.>
17:18:42 -!- Yonkie_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:18:43 <copumpkin> wow, http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Bad_sexism_comebacks are remarkably bad
17:19:09 <Bike> do people... tell sexist people they need to get raped...
17:19:18 -!- conehead has joined.
17:19:49 <kmc> there was that episode of 30 Rock about Liz's sketchy middle eastern neighbor who she thinks is a terrorist but it turns out he's auditioning to be on a reality TV show
17:19:54 <kmc> (spoilers)
17:19:55 <Bike> i mean i've seen 'sexism isn't manly' a lot
17:20:26 <oklopol> yeah i guess not dissing bronies isn't cool yet
17:20:46 <kmc> that was a funny joke about stereotypes which doesn't simply affirm them
17:20:58 <zzo38> I think you should make joke of anything; it doesn't matter.
17:21:16 <Tanea> I think zzo38 is stupid. This is funny.
17:21:19 <Tanea> You can laugh now.
17:21:40 <Bike> that seems like an evil laugh
17:21:41 <kmc> as a white guy my life is terribly hard because of all these restrictions on what jokes I can make!
17:21:43 <Bike> mwa, ha, ha, ha
17:21:53 <kmc> it's just not fair
17:22:58 <Bike> (see hive vagina)
17:23:02 <olsner> spend one day a week pretending to be some other-group and make "self"-deprecating jokes about that group
17:23:06 <kmc> Bike: what
17:23:14 <Bike> it was on the page
17:23:57 -!- Gregor has changed nick to PonyPonyPony.
17:24:08 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know, is not fair, so just make any joke please.
17:24:15 <zzo38> You need freedom of speech, please.
17:24:47 <oklopol> PonyPonyPony: that people are still making fun about bronies
17:24:50 <Bike> PonyPonyPony: i'm hoping this involves a six foot tall Brony Enforcer
17:24:59 <Fiora> Bike: whenever I see the phrase "hive vagina" I think of bees >.>
17:25:02 <kmc> zzo38: freedom of speech does not mean freedom from the social consequences of your speech
17:25:08 <Fiora> (it's a great phrase though)
17:25:21 <kmc> zzo38: if I call you a racial slur, you can and should expect that the rest of the channel will ostracize me
17:25:25 <kmc> that's not government censorship
17:25:26 <olsner> Fiora: it sounds quite scary
17:25:28 <PonyPonyPony> Bike: Well, technically speaking Big Macintosh is probably only four or five feet at the shoulder, but you wouldn't want to get into a fight with him.
17:25:41 <Bike> PonyPonyPony: tbh i can't think of any horse i'd want to get in a fight with
17:25:41 <zzo38> kmc: OK, yes of course there are consequences, but I think you need freedom of speech anyways.
17:25:51 <Jafet> kmc: we can't do that! That's discriminatory.
17:25:51 <kmc> what do you think the phrase "freedom of speech" means?
17:25:58 <kmc> that communities shouldn't have any standards for what's acceptable or not?
17:26:04 <Fiora> (it's a livejournalism I think?)
17:26:08 <zzo38> No, that isn't what I mean.
17:26:20 <Fiora> kmc: I really love it when people cry "freedom of speech" to try to /make people stop talking/
17:26:25 <kmc> yeah seriously
17:26:28 <zzo38> I mean that you should have freedom of speech even though other people should also have the freedom to complain!
17:26:40 <kmc> zzo38: well, I do have freedom of speech
17:26:48 <Bike> i don't think the government's going to stop you from calling people bitches or w/e, zzo38
17:26:55 <Bike> i'd say you got that one locked up
17:26:55 <kmc> and so does the person whose joke shachaf objected to
17:27:16 <PonyPonyPony> <Bike> PonyPonyPony: tbh i can't think of any horse i'd want to get in a fight with // Fair 'nuff
17:27:17 <oklopol> it's a weird idea that people should be able to say whatever they want without it leading to physical things, because the whole modern society is based on the idea that words mean something
17:27:27 <zzo38> Say it even though somebody complains.
17:27:32 <shachaf> kmc: the situation is improved thanks to copumpkin
17:27:37 <Bike> copumpkin: fascist
17:27:53 <kmc> ROAD CLOSED DUE TO COPUMPKIN, EXPECT DELAYS
17:28:35 <copumpkin> what's sort of amusing in some sense
17:28:40 <AnotherTest> I though C++ was the only language where you "first clone yourself and then shoot all of your clones in the foot"
17:28:45 <Bike> hm there's a good SNL sketch about this
17:28:46 <copumpkin> well, do you guys know what the symbol for fascism is?
17:29:05 <copumpkin> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
17:29:33 <Bike> "What kind of Indian are you again?" "I'm Pakistani." "So... is that your tribe, or..." "It's a country." "God damn it, Racist Jim." "And now we're back to name calling!"
17:31:16 <kmc> shachaf: what channel was this
17:32:21 <AnotherTest> I think it might as well be a bug in my python interpreter
17:32:33 -!- Tanea has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
17:35:38 <Bike> that doesn't sound fun
17:36:32 <kmc> damn it, have to reboot chrome again
17:36:50 <AnotherTest> Python's documentation is weird: "There is no shorthand for referencing data attributes (or other methods!) from within methods. I find that this actually increases the readability of methods: there is no chance of confusing local variables and instance variables when glancing through a method."
17:36:58 <kmc> <zzo38> Say it even though somebody complains.
17:37:06 <kmc> did it occur to you that maybe people complain because they actually find these things hurtful
17:37:18 <kmc> and so maybe you shouldn't say it, because you are hurting another person
17:37:48 <kmc> especially when "it" is an unfunny throwaway joke with basically no redeeming qualities
17:38:27 <shachaf> what if it hurts me when people talk about how hurt they are
17:38:32 <shachaf> imo they should suffer in silence
17:38:55 <olsner> shachaf: then you'd just suffer in silence, hth
17:39:10 <shachaf> olsner: um, i'm special hth
17:40:26 <elliott> kmc: oh boy what did i miss
17:40:43 <AnotherTest> ThatOtherPerson: Did you know there is also a ThatOtherGuy on freenode?
17:40:55 <Bike> shachaf burned himself alive to protest not being able to make jokes about women making sandwiches
17:41:10 <olsner> hmm, why did the whole discussion about what's ok in #-blah end up here anyway?
17:41:36 <Bike> probably because shachaf is here and kmc is here but kmc isn't in blah maybe
17:41:56 <shachaf> I did it under the guise of asking for advice but maybe I was just annoyed.
17:42:22 <elliott> shachaf's just playing the good old show kmc bad things game.
17:42:22 <shachaf> Maybe the right solution to that sort of joke is to have more than one person agree that it's not acceptable.
17:42:52 <elliott> it's about everything but copumpkin
17:42:55 <copumpkin> it's where we go if we want to talk about non-sexist stuff and need a break from #sexism
17:43:29 <Bike> iis -blah actually a thing
17:43:52 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:43:59 <olsner> Bike: no, it is only a metaphor
17:44:31 <Bike> what;s haskell-blah a metaphor for
17:44:31 -!- Tanea has joined.
17:44:50 <elliott> it's a metaphor for... oerjan
17:45:15 <oerjan> does that mean i must never join it?
17:45:28 * oerjan cannot recall if he ever has
17:45:48 <shachaf> i never metaphørjan i didn't like
17:46:44 <oerjan> <ThatOtherPerson> oklopol: ಠ_ಠ <-- admittedly oklopol is funnier than the original "joke".
17:48:24 <shachaf> I got distracted from the thing.
17:48:58 <Bike> noooo, not the thing
17:49:05 <oerjan> <Fiora> awkwardly moving away from that person, crying into a pillow, and wishing you could be in a different cosmos, then playing some games or something <-- this basically applies to everything, right?
17:50:01 <elliott> Tanea: are you going to go back to Tandz next
17:50:36 <oerjan> <Bike> kmc: http://i.imgur.com/IwlSZOr.png <-- is it the word "cool" that is stupid, or just this person's understanding of it?
17:50:36 <shachaf> elliott: *If* Tanea gets promoted again, he'll be told what he's promoted to.
17:51:00 <Bike> oerjan: is this a koan
17:51:16 <elliott> get a life you ganja gremlin
17:51:20 <oerjan> Bike: shachaf: i guess you are right.
17:51:52 <kmc> Haskell? Blah!
17:52:38 <ThatOtherPerson> If that is actually an abbreviation that is used I will be surprised.
17:52:57 <shachaf> Oh boy, http://www.mmyvofficial.org/
17:54:30 <oklopol> oerjan: no matter what words you use, it's not cool to read things that claim to be cool on the internet and use them to be cool.
17:54:56 <shachaf> http://www.mmyvofficial.org/publications/marijuana-addiction-percentages/
17:55:03 <elliott> kmc finally gives up on haskell entirely........
17:55:05 <shachaf> that's a pretty high percentage
17:55:07 <oerjan> hm coolness is like the tao?
17:55:23 <oerjan> the cool that can be claimed is not the true cool
17:55:33 <oklopol> "No, I'm allergic to hate."
17:55:36 <Bike> "United States: 85.4%" wuh oh
17:55:50 <Bike> am i... am i addicted to the marijuana.......
17:55:52 <oerjan> oklopol: i suspect it's some kind of meta-joke.
17:56:06 <kmc> wow this is even nuttier than the usual propaganda
17:56:08 <kmc> poe's law abounds
17:56:21 <Bike> The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that more than 10,000,000 annual U.S. deaths, including more than 134,400 in Colorado, are attributed to marijuana use alone (i.e. this figure does not include accidental deaths).
17:56:44 <elliott> intentional marijuana deaths
17:56:58 <kmc> those kinds of posters are common in US schools though
17:57:09 <elliott> this is probably caused by Bike and like three other people
17:57:10 <Bike> Health-related costs for marijuana consumers are eight times greater than those for marijuana consumers, according to an assessment recently published in the British Columbia Mental Health and Addictions Journal.
17:57:10 <ThatOtherPerson> Not that I'm for marijuana or anything, but that website seems to have quite a bit of... hyperbole
17:57:23 <Bike> yeah i'm thinking this is too absurd to be real, even for propaganda
17:57:24 <elliott> "Not that I'm for marijuana or anything" ty ty I was briefly worried your moral standards were compromised
17:57:28 <kmc> i'm for marijuana
17:57:33 <Bike> elliott: i strangle people with cannabis plants
17:57:35 <kmc> just in case that wasn't clear already
17:57:49 <ThatOtherPerson> "the most devastating substance known to mankind" <-- how can you substantiate that claim
17:57:49 <Bike> uh the UK doesn't have marijuana elliott
17:57:53 <elliott> kmc: ummmmm what,,, are you saying you support DRUGS??? you of all people¿¿¿
17:57:55 <oerjan> Bike: this is larger than the actual amount of people dying annually in the us, right?
17:58:21 <kmc> Bike: hemp rope is pretty strong
17:58:23 <shachaf> kmc: speaking of which i think the website i was thinking of was http://thegreencross.org/
17:58:35 <elliott> well this thing actually has a paypal donation link
17:58:36 <kmc> oh for pot delivery
17:58:51 <Bike> oerjan: in 2010 the CDC counted 2,468,435 deaths yes
17:58:54 <ThatOtherPerson> "Physically eliminate all traces from marijuana on the planet using various and highly advanced methods."
17:59:01 <elliott> Here is an image of our trained and dedicated social media staff here at MMYV. These are the people you see commenting and making posts on the Marijuana MAKES You Violent Facebook page.
17:59:05 <elliott> http://www.mmyvofficial.org/about-us/268052_510306798990162_1058851281_n/
17:59:10 <olsner> elliott: luckily, there are 36 ways for you to maintain your "cool" while also not accepting DRUGS from kmc
17:59:10 <shachaf> i gave kmc access to drugz and it made me cool right
17:59:50 <elliott> shachaf: haha this is great
17:59:56 <kmc> "THC Infused Hot & Spicy Mixed Nuts"
18:00:06 <Bike> Research published this year in the journal Marijuanaism: Clinical & Experimental Research, found that 36 percent of hospitalized assaults and 21 percent of all injuries are attributable to marijuana use by the injured person.
18:00:20 <elliott> http://thegreencross.org/uploads/products/IncredimedsPromo.jpeg
18:00:52 <zzo38> I wouldn't think messing the planet is the good idea.
18:01:01 <kmc> ok anything THC infused that's also a good snack food is a serious feedback loop danger
18:01:02 <oerjan> <Bike> elliott: i strangle people with cannabis plants <-- ambiguous sentence please clarify hth
18:01:12 <elliott> wow you can get weed honey
18:01:52 <Bike> kmc: you know the muchies is culturebound? it's neat
18:02:26 <samebchase> Smoking marijuana (seems to be) on the rise, here in India.
18:02:36 <Bike> i had an anthro professor that did a lot of weed with Rastas in the carribean (best science? quite possibly) and none of them even recognied the idea
18:02:57 <ThatOtherPerson> I shall now use various and highly advanced methods to satiate my hunger.
18:03:02 <elliott> Bike: i wish i didn't know that
18:03:11 <olsner> I'm starting to think that this MMYV thing is a parody
18:03:26 <Bike> elliott: blaze it
18:03:30 <kmc> if weed is fully legalized and normalized in USA, it will be interesting to see how 'stoner culture' changes
18:03:53 <kmc> i mean 'stoner culture' is already a minority of people who use pot
18:03:54 <shachaf> i wonder if this will be the most successful part of my ploy to get kmc over to sf
18:04:15 <kmc> but also it's vaguely based on being transgressive and on pot being a kind of in-joke
18:04:15 <Bike> my dad was trying to sponsor stoner culture now that it's legal here
18:04:28 <Bike> unfortunately his Washingstonian shirts didn't go over as well as he'd hoped
18:04:30 <elliott> Bike: no you don't understand
18:04:46 <elliott> now at any future point in my life if i am to obtain ``the munchies'' (as they are referred to) i'm going to think
18:04:58 <Bike> how postmodern
18:05:14 <zzo38> I am neither an astronomer nor an astrologer. Some people have userboxes to specify if they are an astronomer and not an astrologer.
18:05:22 <Bike> kmc: imagine the space needle but the top is replaced with a leaf. now put it on a t-shirt
18:05:27 <shachaf> elliott: oh no elliott don't become violent
18:05:51 <oklopol> "i strangle people with cannabis plants" he obviously strangles plants to people that have cannabis.
18:05:53 <elliott> well having browed the green cross's baked goods selection i don't want weed but i *do* want brownies
18:05:58 <elliott> what's the real addiction here
18:06:11 <Bike> if there are weed brownies is there brownie weed
18:06:37 <Bike> "-Adopt a clean whole foods based diet. The diet you have been eating as a marijuana addict has been destroying your gut and is terrible for you in general." this is like a full-on hit of kmc
18:06:48 <ion> http://www.youtube.com/MMYVofficial
18:06:55 <Bike> "Be careful about viewing violent images, often this triggers a relapse and sends the addict back to using. Even reading about wars in the newspaper can cause the most dedicated reformed addict to fall of the wagon." wh
18:07:23 <elliott> it's kind of sketchy that they have a donation link on a clearly fake site
18:07:25 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:07:31 <ion> This video is awesome. :-D
18:07:40 <Bike> What causes violence? This has been an age old question that was unanswerable up until now. After conducting extensive surveys and medical experiments, we have definitely proven that marijuana is the sole cause of violence on this planet.
18:08:02 <oerjan> <Fiora> Bike: whenever I see the phrase "hive vagina" I think of bees >.> <-- wait this is a common phrase?
18:08:14 <Bike> @google hive vagina
18:08:15 <lambdabot> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Hive_vagina
18:08:15 <lambdabot> Title: Hive vagina - Geek Feminism Wiki
18:08:38 <Bike> Issues/Criticism: Not all feminists, nor all women, have vaginas. The term is therefore exclusionary.
18:09:06 -!- ThatOtherPerson has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:09:11 <shachaf> the term "feminism" is exclusionary hth
18:11:24 <nooodl_> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/0xB16B00B5/BIGBOOBS_Constant_in_Microsoft_Hyper-V good
18:11:26 <shachaf> Tanea: OK, I think I'll finish this later.
18:11:40 <olsner> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Earth-Minbari_war
18:11:54 <nooodl_> "a number is sexist" - whoever wrote this
18:12:00 <oerjan> <elliott> it's kind of sketchy that they have a donation link on a clearly fake site <-- hey faking stuff is expensive hth
18:12:16 <AnotherTest> Heh, I had this fancy algorithm to connect 2 boxes nicely, but it did the exact reverse thing :(
18:12:28 <shachaf> fizzie: Can we have statistics on how many lines of oerjan's end in hth?
18:12:58 <shachaf> <oerjan> shachaf: all of them hth
18:13:22 <Bike> nooodl_: it's a magic number, somebody wrote it in intentionally.
18:13:24 <oerjan> i expect that depends a lot on how many years you go back hthgate
18:14:00 <nooodl_> (i know it is, i'm taking lots of piss here)
18:14:01 <shachaf> oerjan: that's why i asked for "statistics" rather than "a statistic" hth
18:14:20 <oerjan> i'm not a statistic. yet.
18:15:15 <nooodl_> it's probably the most compact way anyone's ever been sexist anywhere... 32 bits of sexism "how can you beat that"
18:16:09 <elliott> This is our updated shirt design featuring bold and powerful text, allowing for its wearer to proudly display that they remain free from the grasp of marijuana. This is the shirt for you if you love peace.
18:16:27 <kmc> 'I remember a girl calling in embarrassed because she sometimes would pee when she had a good orgasm. Dr. Drew asked how her boyfriend reacted to it, and she replied that he seemed proud. Adam Carolla then countered that "Of course he was proud. A swarm of bees could come out of your vagina when you orgasm and he'd be proud."'
18:17:34 <nooodl_> elliott: sounds like a good shirt imo
18:17:52 <elliott> 13:30:51: <ThatOtherPerson> Tanea: how do you pronounce your last name?
18:18:32 <shachaf> is that like a beard of bees
18:19:04 <kmc> bee merkin
18:19:28 <elliott> good botspam in this log imo
18:21:02 <kmc> yeah that does sound like a good shirt
18:21:27 <elliott> http://cache1.bigcartel.com/product_images/99655123/MMYVNewShirt.png
18:21:29 <olsner> nooodl_: heh, did you see the discussion in the linked blog post too? someone ends up arguing that it's not a problem because no girls write kernel code anyway
18:21:29 <elliott> it sounds better than it looks
18:23:19 <Bike> kmc: one of the designs my dad is hocking: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12780151/20130505_111931.jpg
18:24:25 -!- ThatOtherPerson has joined.
18:24:45 <Bike> yeah, that was basically my reaction too
18:25:12 <Bike> he doesn't even smoke or anything, he just doesn't care and wanted to see if he could make some cahs.
18:26:37 <ThatOtherPerson> Stupid Windows is so stupid that it doesn't even have a whois command
18:29:31 <Bike> "I do not, for the life of me, understand closures. Could anyone help me? I can relate it to python decorators but, what I just don't see the entire picture." i am so confused
18:29:45 <elliott> i do not, for the life of me, understand the question
18:30:20 <kmc> Bike: good
18:30:33 <kmc> red eyes are a nice touch
18:30:59 <elliott> imo kmc should buy one of Bike's dad's shirts
18:31:07 <kmc> my friends in college had a big poster of bill clinton with a joint
18:31:08 <olsner> Bike: closures are like blue and red pipes, also known as monads
18:31:11 <Bike> they're pretty 'limited edition'
18:31:36 <kmc> closures are like blue and red bongs
18:31:41 <kmc> in that hitting them will fix your makefile
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18:38:59 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:39:13 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
18:39:38 <fungot> FireFly: the press cuttings, in professor angell's most recent hand; and made no explanation when i questioned him. not that his form of language was at all unusual, for he
18:43:02 <ThatOtherPerson> fungot: What antediluvian abominations must we abide if we do not abate all traces of the dread weed?
18:43:03 <fungot> ThatOtherPerson: coming of age in april, just before the vampirism broke out? the rifling of ezra weeden's ancient grave, and is finally discovered to be a veritable code signal, so that no sounds above a whisper were possible; digestion was incredibly prolonged and fnord, forerunners of the modern slate and fnord.
18:44:06 <Bike> i didn't know lovecraft wrote about vampirism
18:47:03 <Bike> haven't you ever read Illuminatus
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19:02:31 <Bike> probaby action
19:09:51 <fizzie> shachaf: http://sprunge.us/LOaa
19:10:38 <Bike> what happened last may oerjan
19:11:07 <fizzie> (Exercise for the reader: use extrapolation techniques to estimate the arrival of the hth singularity.)
19:11:47 <Bike> let's see, it goes 01, 04, 08. that's pretty much doubling.
19:11:55 <Tanea> fizzie: next thursday hth
19:12:10 <Bike> so in four months, 128% of oerjan's messages will be helping
19:12:57 <oerjan> Bike: i have a temporary workaround for that hth hth hth
19:15:40 <oerjan> > 1/0.00050428643469490671
19:15:52 <Bike> so the hth singularity is in 1982?
19:17:38 <oerjan> your rounding needs work hth
19:20:53 -!- xifeng has joined.
19:21:23 <oerjan> Bike: also i don't know, this is one of those cases where it would be nice to have the denominators
19:29:33 -!- Tanea has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:32:20 <HackEgo> feth marseu gente rhenia cong gnader tal thol tenableu wcructive many tvho iece nick uigk ghy unrect jew che sclian sestrace print extuam bifburg swifesssenship
19:32:43 <FireFly> words seems related to bullshit(1)
19:32:49 -!- Tanea has joined.
19:33:03 <FireFly> http://man.aiju.de/1/bullshit that is
19:34:01 <oerjan> it's based on markov chains of letters, like fungot's blather is based on markov chains of words, afaik
19:34:02 <fungot> oerjan: the terrible old man. he saw now, in that baffling region beyond the first gate. it was the fnord, fnord.
19:34:56 <FireFly> I wonder how well markov chains of syllables would work out
19:35:36 <FireFly> The first issue is to split words into syllables
19:35:43 <Bike> 'probably easy'
19:36:12 <oerjan> but words form a monoid!
19:36:39 <FireFly> Hm, then it OUGHT TO BE easy
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19:43:08 <HackEgo> lag1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:43:18 -!- Bike_ has joined.
19:43:26 <Tanea> Sweet Bro and Hellag1
19:44:17 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:44:18 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
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19:46:26 <Tanea> `welcome ffugencantbelay
19:46:27 <HackEgo> ffugencantbelay: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:51:10 <FireFly> Maybe they were interested in the other kind of esoterica
19:53:24 <Bike> darn, i really wanted to talk about hermetic medicine. oh well, sorry to trouble you, bye!!
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19:56:31 <PonyPonyPony> Asking makes it clear that you are irrevocably locked in a matrix of solidity.
19:56:40 * Bike shakes head sadly
19:56:53 <HackEgo> 245) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity \ 274) <monqy> I've only watched bad movies about video game. I enjoyed every second of it.
19:57:17 <Bike> dude it's right there
19:57:20 <Bike> 'matrix of solidity'
19:57:44 <Tanea> It's even on the main page of the wiki
19:57:45 <ThatOtherPerson> It's so much not a phrase that one of the top Google hits for "matrix of solidity" is esolangs.org
19:58:30 <Tanea> We tend to use it a lot
19:58:30 <lambdabot> *** "solidity" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:58:30 <lambdabot> n 1: the consistency of a solid [syn: {solidity}, {solidness}]
19:58:30 <lambdabot> 2: state of having the interior filled with matter [ant:
19:59:29 <Bike> shut the damn hell?
20:00:04 <Tanea> I keep thinking wn stands for WikiNews
20:00:13 <Tanea> And then I get all confused when it's a dictionary
20:01:48 <zzo38> The other kind of esoteric is..... uh... it is "the other kind of esoterica", such as, other things.
20:02:03 <zzo38> However, there are other things on this channel too.
20:02:32 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: stuff the mutaween would beat the shit out of you for knowing
20:02:50 <Tanea> ThatOtherPerson: we don't talk about the other kind of esoterica
20:03:36 <Bike> did i pronounce anything...
20:03:44 <olsner> ThatOtherPerson: if this was the channel for that kind of esoterica we could tell you
20:03:45 <zzo38> O, you mean the rules of Paranoia.
20:05:24 <xifeng> It's stuff to do with mystery religion, esoteric literature, magic, etc
20:06:28 <kmc> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alexgreycosm/entheon-the-alex-grey-visionary-art-experience
20:07:52 <Bike> ooh, a crazy with actual business sense, sign me up
20:08:04 <kmc> alex grey's art is awesomely un-subtle
20:08:17 <kmc> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FOG2zo3aUBc/TomkDyC3AHI/AAAAAAAAA7w/UGFu54hiYfo/s1600/alex-grey-albert-hofmann.jpeg
20:08:21 <Bike> are you sure because i have no idea what https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/000/540/100/468be0aa20b5f32bf1522f78ef1987da_large.png?1366833317 is saying
20:08:33 <Bike> ok, well, that's a bit more obvious
20:08:39 <kmc> "immmmmmmmmmmmm on drugggggggggggzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"
20:08:48 <kmc> http://americangallery.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/copulating.jpg uh nsfw, I guess?
20:08:55 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
20:08:58 <Bike> i've seen so many of these paintings
20:09:08 <kmc> i saw his gallery in NYC before it closed
20:09:10 <Bike> surrounded by 'wtf' of course and uncredited
20:09:25 <Bike> i like the wires in the copulation
20:09:30 <kmc> http://keepitight.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/alex_grey-artists_hand1.jpeg
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20:10:28 <Bike> this guy has films huh
20:11:00 <kmc> http://www.nathanspoor.com/images/Blisss_AlexGrey_4.jpg
20:11:08 <Bike> i like how there's an actual term for getting high as shit and painting
20:11:15 <Bike> 'visionary art', i've got a whole damn book of it
20:11:42 <kmc> heh fair enough
20:11:44 <Bike> there's a museum of it in like pennsylvania
20:11:53 <Bike> half made by people in asylums, it's great
20:12:02 <xifeng> There's one in Baltimore, too.
20:12:11 <Bike> have you ever wanted to see a Bush caricature with a pope hat shitting on a flag? then have i got the genre for you
20:12:26 <xifeng> Some pretty haunting stuff, mostly non-high people from strange backgrounds.
20:12:39 <Bike> yeah, lots of schizophrenics, which gets a bit sad
20:16:14 <ThatOtherPerson> Is it just me or does some of his work look slightly Hindu?
20:16:35 <zzo38> Vote in my polls on ifMUD.
20:16:48 <xifeng> There are also a lot of self-promoters who use the label as a marketing ploy. "I never learned how to draw, here's why that's a good thing"
20:18:46 <Bike> ThatOtherPerson: http://kmrao.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mahabharata_war.jpg the resemblance is amazing
20:18:58 * impomatic has just received a copy of "Lost Treasures of Infocom volume 2" :-)
20:20:29 <zzo38> impomatic: Can you make a copy of the headers of each file?
20:22:39 <zzo38> The first 64 bytes of each story file is the header.
20:23:08 <impomatic> Okay, will do later. It's in the office at the moment.
20:23:17 <impomatic> Feel free to remind me if I forget.
20:23:23 <zzo38> (I think the extension is usually ".DAT" for Infocom story files, although other extensions are ".ZIP" and ".Z?")
20:24:29 <impomatic> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-Treasures-of-Infocom-II-Mac-/161017562410?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item257d65052a
20:24:36 <impomatic> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Lost-Treasures-of-Infocom-Mac-/161017559981?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item257d64fbad
20:25:39 <zzo38> Except for version 6 games, it doesn't matter whether it is for Macintosh or PC or Commodore 64 or whatever; the story files will be the same for any computer.
20:25:54 <impomatic> zzo38: I assume you want the headers because you're looking for slightly different versions?
20:26:11 <zzo38> (The Z-machine version number is stored in the first byte of the story file.)
20:26:49 <impomatic> I've got the story files running on my Android tablet, Nintendo DS and PC. :-)
20:28:06 <zzo38> Can you get them to run on the Nintendo Family Computer?
20:28:37 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/a807adb86169318f6fa991bb3240f266/tumblr_mit8ojvpyV1rsromyo1_500.jpg
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20:30:47 <zzo38> That is very good, but I want to be able to run it on older computers too.
20:32:48 <zzo38> Have you ever written any games for the Z-machine?
20:33:40 <impomatic> I'm also after some other classic adventure games, e.g. by Magnetic Scrolls and Level 9.
20:34:12 <impomatic> No, never written anything for the Z-Machine. I tried some of the earlier systems, The Quill, TADS, etc.
20:34:33 <impomatic> The I wrote a couple of adventures in assembly language :-) (Only one published)
20:34:42 <zzo38> I am writing a converter OASYS -> Z-machine. Perhaps other program can be made too, to convert the files for other system into Z-machine, too.
20:34:53 <zzo38> Assembly language for what computers?
20:40:07 <impomatic> PC. I started writing in Z80 for the ZX Spectrum but I didn't think anyone would be interested. So I switched to PC.
20:42:17 <zzo38> Even though object numbers in Z-machine go up to 65535, there is not enough RAM for 65535 objects, therefore I made Z-machine version 9 and version 10 which allow twice and quadruple amount of RAM.
20:43:44 <zzo38> (Z-machine versions 9 and 10 also support twice as many properties, although only the first 63 have default values.)
20:49:56 <zzo38> (The default values for the rest of the properties would overlap the object headers.)
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22:18:50 <Sgeo> "So glad that you rethought FTC [French Toast Crunch]! It really is one of the few redeeming qualities about Canada."
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22:55:50 <kmc> yessssss i saw a mourning dove and a bluejay and a baby rabbit
22:57:43 <Bike> were they in a band
22:58:09 <elliott> they were in port authority in the late 80s
22:58:20 <elliott> back when it was entirely made of small animals
22:58:21 <kmc> the bluejay was yelling at a robin though
23:00:09 <kmc> am i the god of the israelites now
23:00:36 <Bike> shouldn't the band be called like hrairhain or some shit
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23:01:49 <shachaf> but you can anything you want if you grow up hth
23:03:45 <kmc> and what does yawg stand for
23:04:12 <shachaf> do i have to expand everything around here
23:04:43 <Bike> can you expand the at sign
23:06:29 <shachaf> kmc: I didn't sleep all night and now I have an airplaneflight at 8:55.
23:06:40 <shachaf> Maybe I won't sleep all night again????????????
23:06:46 <Bike> rabbits always look terrified, it's a bit unsettling
23:06:50 <shachaf> Unless I sleep now, maybe.
23:07:28 <Fiora> yeah, there's a family of rabbits outside my work and I always get upset that I scare them off when I walk home :<
23:08:01 <Bike> shachaf: i'm only really an expert in elliottian sleep, but nonetheless i recommend as a layman that you should strongly consider sleeping
23:10:09 <shachaf> Bike: um, i recommend that too
23:10:50 <Bike> lay down in bed, close your eyes, and take a SHITLOAD of opiates
23:14:44 <olsner> or without the opiates if you're like a normal person
23:15:12 <shachaf> i'm not like a normal person and i'm not a big fan of opioids right now hth
23:15:54 <olsner> maybe without the opiates anyway, hth
23:16:31 <kmc> Bike: i think they are always terrified
23:16:38 <kmc> at least when there are huge lumbering apes around
23:17:00 <kmc> there are a bunch of rabbits that live behind the Stata Center at MIT
23:17:33 <Bike> probably, that's why it's unsettling
23:17:38 <Bike> "shit, am i doing this"
23:22:28 <Bike> are you terrified
23:23:36 <shachaf> i'm terrified of the unknown
23:23:41 <shachaf> i'm terrified of terror itself
23:24:04 <olsner> sounds like the definition of terror
23:24:42 <shachaf> i'm terrified of long fingernails, low-thread-count linen, and maps of jamaica
23:26:11 <olsner> perhaps Bike is what you should be terrified of
23:27:31 <elliott> the only thing we have to fear is fear itself and shachaf
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23:31:40 <HackEgo> BillyZane: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:32:25 <BillyZane> oh, this is a programming language?
23:33:56 <Koen_> it's a secret society for programming languages
23:34:08 <Koen_> for some values of "secret"
23:34:10 <Sgeo> It's not itself a programming language, but it's about programming languages. Specifically, those not particularly intended for practical use. Although we're rarely on topic.
23:34:46 <pikhq> I'm afraid we're more secrete than secret.
23:35:20 -!- shachaf has set topic: is always on topic | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:35:24 -!- shachaf has set topic: #esoteric is always on topic | Habemus Debiam! | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/.
23:36:24 <coppro> it's so secret none of us know what it's actually for
23:36:34 <pikhq> Shouldn't that be HABEMVS DEBIAM?
23:37:03 <Bike> does that mean we secrete things or... whath does that mean
23:37:17 <Bike> elliott: imo make the channel +s for extra secretism.
23:37:36 <Bike> i don't even know what that does on freenode and that's ok
23:37:45 <BillyZane> i have a secret. i'm an idiot. i've discovered my intellectual plateau and it's not much higher than a dish washer
23:37:58 <Bike> you can put dishwashers pretty high up
23:38:13 <pikhq> Yeah, they are one of the greater kitchen appliances.
23:38:16 <Bike> they don't need to boil water or anything, you could have a dishwasher on top of K2 or whatever and it'd work, if you had power
23:38:26 <Bike> so aspire for your plateau to be as high as Leng
23:38:46 <shachaf> did you read the all-shirts comic yet
23:38:53 <shachaf> http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=397
23:38:56 <Bike> are you asleep
23:39:29 <Bike> imo if you're not asleep you're a bad man
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23:45:44 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine now has four files. We should add some more, please.
23:46:44 <shachaf> Here's a file for you: 'zzo38\n\n\n<newline>'
23:46:52 <shachaf> (With no newline at the end.)
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23:53:29 * kmc using Newton's method to take cube roots of 500 digit numbers
23:53:32 <kmc> it's super effective!
23:54:33 <Bike> shachaf you seem pretty bad at sleeping
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23:57:47 <lambdabot> "C/C++ : A new language for the new Millennium" by Richard Heathfield in 2005-02 at <http://web.archive.org/web/20090421080714/http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/portable/c/c++/rfe00000.html>
23:59:00 <kmc> reverse reverse polish notation