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00:47:10 <Fiora> "In reality, cats do possess the ability to turn themselves right side up in mid-air if they should fall upside-down [...] Toast, however, lacks both the ability and the desire to right itself." wikipedia has some of the most amazing quotes
00:47:46 <Bike> I feel the aleged desire of cats to fall right side up should be gone into deeper here
00:47:56 <shachaf> Maybe you should contribute some quotes like these.
00:48:04 <shachaf> Wikipedia articles don't just right themselves, you know.
00:48:06 <Bike> You know for NPOV
00:48:46 <elliott> okay "Toast, however, lacks both the ability and the desire to right itself." has to go down as one of the greatest Wikipedia quotes of all time
00:49:08 <shachaf> That page should be nominated for deletion.
00:49:15 <Bike> "running ensembl vep on vcf from gatk unifiedgenotyper; not sensible right?" help
00:49:34 <shachaf> You'd get the same result from tying two cats or two buttered toasts to each other.
00:49:46 <shachaf> So, really, a better result.
00:49:56 <elliott> that just doesn't have the same winning combination of animal abuse + breakfast.
00:50:01 <shachaf> This page was nominated for deletion on 2006-03-28. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
00:50:04 <shachaf> This page was nominated for deletion on 2007-09-03. The result of the discussion was keep.
00:50:40 <elliott> Fiora: oh wow, that toast quote is even cited
00:50:51 <Bike> what's the cite.
00:50:55 <elliott> admittedly it's cited to mythbustersresults.com.
00:51:08 <elliott> In an extensive and highly objective test the toast showed no statistical preference for landing buttered side-down or up when dropped. It was an even 50-50 split when the final results were compared. However, when pushed off the side of a table, toast showed preference to flip once and land buttered side down.
00:51:17 <shachaf> The citation doesn't say anything about desire.
00:51:28 <shachaf> That looks like vandalism...
00:51:32 <Bike> Better add a [not in citation]
00:51:34 <elliott> well, desire ~ preferance.
00:52:07 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buttered_cat_paradox&diff=559007493&oldid=557098109
00:52:13 <Fiora> I think that quote should stay for being basicall the best thing
00:52:22 <Bike> hey, hey, no. Why are you even concluding that what the toast does is indicative of its preference? What if it's trapped with locked-in-to-toast syndrome?
00:52:38 <elliott> neds a cite to the journal of toast neuroscience
00:52:45 <shachaf> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buttered_cat_paradox&diff=535743465&oldid=535663473
00:53:06 <shachaf> How do you nominate things for deletion?
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00:53:11 <shachaf> Maybe I can get oerjan to do it.
00:53:16 <Fiora> "The fact buttered toast lacks cognition does not need to be cited." oh my gosh that edit summary
00:53:20 <Fiora> I cannot get over that edit summary
00:53:39 <Bike> wow, that's very short-sighted! panpsychism is a serious theory!
00:53:42 <elliott> However, toast, lacking both muscles and a desire to orient any particular way,
00:53:50 <Bike> disappointed in this argument tbh
00:54:08 <elliott> so what about clams on toast
00:54:23 <shachaf> everyone knows toast is liquid anyway
00:54:29 <shachaf> otherwise how do you drink it
00:54:50 <Bike> «The output of an [[active noise control]] system which cancels an existing noise, leaving the local environment noise free. The [[comic book]] character [[Iron Man]] used to have a "black light beam" that could darken a room in this manner, and popular [[science fiction]] has a tendency to portray active noise control in this light."<ref name="comp.dsp FAQ"/> The ''[[Batman Beyond]]'' supervillian Shriek also had a weapon like this, which
00:55:01 <Fiora> why are you being so shellfish
00:55:29 <Bike> triplefin blenny..
00:57:38 <elliott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/C%CC%AC%CC%A4%CC%AC%CD%94%CC%AE%CC%BA%CC%8B%CC%84%CC%84%CC%82%CC%93%CC%80%CD%A7%CC%90h%CC%BA%CD%8B%CD%A7%CC%93%CC%8F%CC%84%CD%82%CC%89%CC%93%CD%A6a%CD%94%CC%AC%CD%AB%CC%8E%CD%AD%CC%83%CC%83%CD%8A%CC%8A%C3%AC%CC%9C%CD%94%CC%BC%CD%93%CC%B0%CC%B1%CD%8D%CD%88%CC%B0%CC%8A%CC%89%CD%92%C5%88%CC%A4%CC%83%CD%A9%CC%92%CD%9C%CD%9C%CD%9Ef%CC%AA%CC%B2%CC%96%CC%8F%CD%A8%CC%88%CD%8B%CC%83%CC%9Aa%CC%B4%CC%AA%CC%AE%CD%A7%CC%93%CD%A3%CC%88%CC
00:57:55 <shachaf> Buttered cat: Wales’s favourite Wikipedia entry
00:57:57 <shachaf> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/8867079/Jimmy-Wales-Wikipedia-can-topple-tyrants.html
00:58:56 <Bike> elliott: this name seems hard to pronounce
00:59:26 <shachaf> If this article is deleted I will hew your wife in twain and turn your innards into poisonous snakes. --70.126.190.75 (talk) 01:47, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
01:01:39 <Bike> think you should take this threat seriously
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01:02:53 <zzo38> How can you turn your innards into poisonous snakes?
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01:15:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: erflist: not found
01:15:54 <shachaf> `run cp bin/{empty,erf}list
01:19:05 <shachaf> does anyone even read error function world
01:21:46 <zzo38> I don't know, but I suppose now you have it there in case anyone does
01:22:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you read `olist?
01:23:35 <zzo38> I don't read any of these things that you have list for updates
01:28:41 <shachaf> zzo38: Which things do you read? Maybe we should make lists for them.
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01:32:12 <zzo38> I don't really read anything regularly, but I do write Dungeons&Dragons recording.
01:33:16 <shachaf> Can I read Dungeons&Dragons recording?
01:34:02 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
01:34:53 <zzo38> There is also the DVI compiled of it, and the dungeonsrecording.tex in the same directory which contains macros used for this file
01:37:00 <shachaf> That would be better for me.
01:37:51 <zzo38> No there is none; if you want that you have to compile it yourself.
01:38:29 <zzo38> However, the source file isn't so difficult to read.
01:38:40 <zzo38> No I don't have the program to compile it to PDF
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01:40:07 <shachaf> Now we are going back to the Boar Head Inn. Some of the chairs are broken, so Kjugobe uses some magic to make up a new chair. He borrows some writing equipment, and writes ``DO NOT SIT HERE PAST THE HOURS OF 6AM'' on the chair. (It seems likely some people will not understand the purpose of this message, ignore it, sit there anyways, and fall on the floor at 6AM when the chair disappears.)
01:40:22 <HackEgo> smlist (416): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
01:45:29 <kmc> zzo38: who do you play D&D with?
01:49:01 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZODtmaHIQng meanwhile, on the internet.
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01:53:27 <zzo38> shachaf: They are other characters; those players aren't always in, but they are the people I know. Kjugobe is my character.
01:54:01 <zzo38> (The name "Also" can certainly cause grammatical confusion, as it sometimes does)
01:55:17 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of story/game?
01:55:20 <shachaf> Meanwhile, Isolde goes back to the castle, and tries to serve the chancellor breakfast with these fertilized eggs, but the guards will not let Isolde to do so. Isolde tries to tell them, ``but, the eggs are hatching!'' Isolde hopes that the guards will take a closer look, and that they will immediately hatch and they will get scared to death; or else they will start laughing, fall to the floor, and trip on their own swords and die.
01:56:18 <shachaf> That's a big file. I can't read it all right now.
01:56:30 <zzo38> That's OK. I didn't write it all at once either.
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02:05:49 <zzo38> Can GCC automatically know that (x&4)>>1 and (x&4?2:0) is equivalent and optimize them into each other?
02:06:34 <zzo38> I find this and other bitwise manipulation is common in C programs I write.
02:07:21 <shachaf> You can find out what GCC optimizes particular code into easily enough.
02:09:11 <zzo38> It could be any integer type; but maybe some are different due to the CPU instruction set? I don't know.
02:13:06 <kmc> &4?2:0 mask bits everyday
02:14:27 <shachaf> kmc: btw have you considered that the halting problem exists and therefore all optimizers are pointless
02:15:08 <zzo38> That doesn't make optimizers pointless.
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02:15:33 <nooodl> i don't even see the connection :/
02:15:40 <nooodl> i mean i'm sure it's a joke, but
02:16:29 <zzo38> It might mean that perfect optimization isn't always necessarily possible for looping programs, though.
02:16:51 <kmc> it might (does) mean that
02:17:10 <mnoqy> clearly: dont use looping program
02:17:14 <kmc> shachaf: it's funny because this is how people talk about security?
02:17:56 <shachaf> well.....not completely sure about the "it's funny" part
02:18:22 <kmc> but you were making that reference?
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02:25:25 <shachaf> kmc: hm the new episodes of that show are coming out in ~1.5 weeks
02:26:16 <shachaf> should i watch them as they come out or wait until the end
02:26:37 <kmc> which show
02:27:05 <kmc> have you seen everything thus far
02:28:33 <kmc> I watched season 5 (I) as it came out and I feel good about my choice
02:28:52 <kmc> and I won't have the restraint to wait until 5 (II) is done to watch it, even if I wanted to
02:28:59 <kmc> and I want to watch with friends and discuss and such
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02:43:58 <zzo38> Should strcpy return the number of characters in the source string? I think it might be a useful thing for it to do.
02:44:45 -!- tswett has changed nick to Ocqueoc.
02:45:18 <zzo38> What is "Ocqueoc", though?
02:45:33 <Ocqueoc> Apparently it's a French word meaning "crooked waters".
02:45:45 <Ocqueoc> It's a stream in Presque Isle County.
02:45:53 <Ocqueoc> Which I'm sure all of you have heard of.
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02:58:35 <zzo38> What should be a algorithm to generete random UUID?
02:59:08 <Bike> 1) call the microsoft API function 2) done 3) forever
02:59:24 <zzo38> But the program will be cross-platform and not only Microsoft
02:59:53 <Bike> https://twitter.com/ProBirdRights
03:00:06 <oerjan> @tell olsner HackEgo cannot send private messages hth
03:00:36 <shachaf> oerjan: then what kinds of messages is it sending me
03:00:52 <Bike> particularly, https://twitter.com/ProBirdRights/status/342822403690352641
03:00:56 <oerjan> @tell olsner I mean, in response to public commands.
03:05:13 <oerjan> @tell boily I do not believe it is possible to experimentally distinguish extremely huge finite from infinite hth
03:07:51 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> the haskell weekly news only has a single quote. <-- and it's not even from #haskell!
03:08:38 <oerjan> @tell boily well, I assume. i'd be shocked if knuth showed up there.
03:09:04 <shachaf> 06:30:59 <sclv_> @remember knuth To help the reader drowning in a sea of abstraction, the following example may serve as a concrete life preserver
03:09:56 <Bike> knuth, noted computational gangster (frankenstein computer god)
03:09:59 <oerjan> it occurs me that making sea life preservers out of concrete isn't a very good idea.
03:10:34 <shachaf> depends on what kind of sea life you want to preserve
03:10:59 <oerjan> true. i guess if you want to feed the sharks...
03:11:00 <Bike> i bet osedax would be happy to have somewhere to root, insofar as they can feel happiness
03:11:43 <zzo38> I don't think a life preserver out of concrete would be good to feed the sharks or whatever else either
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03:21:49 <oerjan> wait roujo is here, is that my fault?
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03:27:11 <oerjan> wait, are we starting to have eerily many quebecois in the channel
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03:44:25 <oerjan> @tell fizzie Please ^save fungot, i fixed a bug in ^prefixes
03:44:25 <fungot> oerjan: it had all sorts of problems
03:44:40 <oerjan> fungot: oh it wasn't that bad, just a missing space
03:44:40 <fungot> oerjan: http://www.randsinrepose.com/ archives/ fnord/ fnord/ 06/ fnord
03:44:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
03:50:10 <oerjan> <elliott> java bot :'( <-- wat, jconn is J!
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03:55:58 <HackEgo> ursala ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
03:56:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/[^ ]* //' wisdom/ursala
03:56:39 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
03:57:19 <oerjan> maybe we should just remove `learn if people keep using it wrong.
03:58:31 <oerjan> also i think there was another broken one recently but i've forgotten which one.
03:58:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Instead of removing it, require the first character of the argument to be ^O.
03:58:45 <shachaf> That way only people who ""know the trick"" can use it.
03:58:52 <doesthiswork> today I learned something very strange. If I take coin from a uniform distribution of biased coins and flip it 3 times, 1/4th of the time it will come up with 3 heads
03:59:34 <Bike> doesthiswork: as in the distribution of the bias is uniform?
04:00:28 <oerjan> ouch, i think that may require a triple integral or something
04:01:21 <oerjan> ok if p is the probability of heads then p^3 is the probability of 3 heads
04:02:14 <oerjan> so \int_0^1 p^3 dp = p^4/4 |_0^1 = 1/4, yep
04:03:07 <doesthiswork> the probability of any given number of heads is 1/(n+1)
04:03:14 <Bike> yeah, that works with oerjan's fine.
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04:06:00 <doesthiswork> guess what the probability of 7 heads in 17 flips of a coin drawn from my collection
04:07:31 <oerjan> i like how people started welcoming Roujo just after he said he was off
04:08:30 <oerjan> doesthiswork: wait, don't you mean 17 heads hth
04:08:42 <Bike> it's just \int_0^1 p^7(1-p)^10 dp right
04:08:51 <oerjan> or wait, is it _any_ single number, huh
04:08:54 <doesthiswork> the number of heads doesn't matter, the probability is the same
04:09:55 <oerjan> except p^n(1-p)^(k-n) is harder to integrate in your head
04:09:55 <mnoqy> what's so surprising about it, imo
04:10:30 <Bike> oerjan: well it's pretty easy to see that it's going to be 0 for p=0 i think?
04:10:42 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo what was that thing you were saying about comma categories ages ago
04:10:54 <mnoqy> shachaf: just look up comma categories
04:11:02 <oerjan> Bike: we need the difference between 0 and 1
04:11:15 <mnoqy> shachaf: alt. look up whatever else you want to know about
04:11:22 <shachaf> mnoqy: yes, i just read about them. but why were you talking about them once
04:12:20 <shachaf> my memory is failing me :'(
04:12:22 <mnoqy> shachaf: because the formulation of free objects [and other things] i knew at the time was all about a comma instead of adjunction
04:12:39 <mnoqy> but the formulation in terms of adjunction is much nicer
04:12:59 <shachaf> aren't adjunctions great though
04:13:14 <shachaf> but i should understand the comma categories thing
04:13:50 <shachaf> you know how limits are adjoint to diagonal functors? p. great
04:14:21 <mnoqy> http://nlab.mathforge.org/nlab/show/comma+category comma categroy is pretty easy
04:15:11 <mnoqy> i "got to go" now though "have fun"
04:16:48 <Bike> wolfram says the integral involves hypergeometry. maybe it is not right
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04:27:21 <oerjan> well you can do it with binomials obviously but what a mess
04:28:13 <oerjan> p^k(1-p)^(n-k) = p^k + (n-k over 2)p^(k+1) + ... + p^n
04:29:27 <oerjan> 1/(k+1) + (n-k over 2)/(k+2) + ... + 1/(n+1)
04:30:22 <oerjan> and then you just have to show that's 1/(n-k+1) hth
04:30:34 <oerjan> (my brain cannot do that right now)
04:31:09 <oerjan> wait how can that be right
04:31:32 <oerjan> there's already a 1/(n+1) _before_ you add the rest
04:31:46 * oerjan probably messed up somewhere
04:34:14 <oerjan> oh wait no, it's bike's fault >:)
04:35:10 <oerjan> p^7(1-p)^10 isn't correct, you have to multiply by the number of possible orderings
04:43:52 <oerjan> <Fiora> "In reality, cats do possess the ability to turn themselves right side up in mid-air if they should fall upside-down [...] Toast, however, lacks both the ability and the desire to right itself." wikipedia has some of the most amazing quotes
04:44:30 <oerjan> i doubt they actually tested the toast's desire scientifically. there might be a hidden tragedy here.
04:44:56 <oerjan> see: intelligent calcium.
04:51:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> Maybe I can get oerjan to do it. <-- not a chance hth
04:52:16 <shachaf> oerjan: not even a chance equal to.........0?
04:53:06 <oerjan> shachaf: let's not go into quantum teleportation territory here twnh
05:01:20 <oerjan> <Ocqueoc> Apparently it's a French word meaning "crooked waters". <-- ok-dokey
05:06:09 <Bike> oerjan: so multiply by n!?
05:07:10 <Bike> oh wait, no. wow i'm bad imo
05:07:31 <shachaf> oerjan: as in https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.518647,-115.058205&spn=0.006668,0.016512 ?
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05:19:02 <oerjan> shachaf: nixon creek, sounds ominous
05:19:45 <Bike> hm, integral still looks nasty.
05:21:15 <oerjan> presumably there's some trick.
05:21:38 <oerjan> or more intuitive argument
05:26:02 <Bike> doesthiswork has abandoned us. we will never know the trick.
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05:49:13 <kmc> "I was attempting to convince someone that one of the appendices to Lord of the Rings just consists of Saruman attempting to teach LISP to the dwarves."
05:54:12 <Bike> ok somebody needs to help me understand this formula because it's bullshit
05:56:18 <Bike> say f is a function in a field extension with minimal polynomial p(f) = sum of r_n*f^n from n=0 in whatever field. then f' = (sum of r_n'*f^n from n=0)/(sum of n*f^(n-1) from n=1)
05:56:42 <Bike> and those ^ are multiplication. srry elliott
06:04:43 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetic_derivative fucking christ i'm doomed.
06:08:57 <olsner> oerjan: I didn't remember getting a public response at all to that command, so I thought it didn't work, but then you responded instead
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06:15:44 <Bike> good news i did some algebra that makes no sense and derived this somehow. fuck everything
06:16:22 <shachaf> that's how algebra works Bike.............
06:17:36 <Bike> no i mean i kind of went "what if i pretended that *five minutes of staring blankly at a wall in sleepy incomprehension* and then did algebra". i don't even know what the nonsensical pretendingness was
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06:45:37 <Bike> ok when i wake up give me an example of an uncomputable continuous function. thx
06:51:01 <fizzie> I think you can make one if you have an integrable uncomputable function.
06:53:35 <fizzie> oerjan: REQUEST ACKNOWLEDGED
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07:29:44 <shachaf> oerjan: when are you scheduling the next `olist update
07:30:02 <shachaf> it's been since sunday or something
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07:32:32 <shachaf> i was hoping for sooner than that
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07:53:03 <zzo38> Is IOCCC open now?
07:57:11 <zzo38> Why does the number of entries have a decimal point in it?
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08:05:40 -!- oerjan has set topic: Life's just a mood ring we're not allowed to see | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
08:10:38 <zzo38> Compare the IOCCC rules with Z-Comp rules. Some people say the Z-Comp rules are really convoluted. What is your opinion?
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08:25:10 <fizzie> IOCRC: The International Obfuscated Contest Rules Contest.
08:29:56 <zzo38> Are you going to make that too?
08:33:44 <fizzie> No. But it is logical.
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10:15:22 <zzo38> Is consciousness like the roundness of a sphere?
10:24:10 <zzo38> Although this sentence begins with the word "because", it is false. -- Douglas R Hofstadter
10:25:53 <zzo38> If the meanings of "true" and "false" were switched, then this sentence would not be false.
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10:50:07 <fizzie> I took this photo from the thing yesterday: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130802-assembly.jpg
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11:32:39 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Yes; just about to go back there.
11:33:01 <Lumpio-> Wonder if anyone else from here is
11:34:48 <fizzie> I've been blabbing about the event yesterday, and at least no-one admitted anything.
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11:37:24 <fizzie> Welp, time to hop on a bike (not Bike). ->
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11:42:41 <elliott> (obviously a bot, IP doesn't match anyone in the channel, doesn't appear to do anything, can't keep its connection.)
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12:14:24 <Phantom_Hoover> he also played someone in local hero apparently but i haven't seen that film in ages
12:14:42 <Phantom_Hoover> well he's 'the favourite', with all the pinches of salt the term implies
12:16:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if there's any better evidence than the fevered imaginings of the autistic children bookies use to set the odds for things
12:20:21 <elliott> "Billie Piper, former Doctor’s assistant Rose Tyler, is the only woman listed by Paddy Power to take on the title role after it was rumoured earlier this week that an actress might be in the running."
12:20:27 <elliott> these predictions do not seem credible
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12:22:23 <elliott> nice to know the most likely way they'll shake up the expectations for the doctor is... casting an old white guy
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12:54:40 <boily> good orange morning!
12:56:54 <boily> we have experimental proof at our office that bananas are radioactive. we have this fruit delivery service, and the half-life of bananas is less than 200 kiloseconds.
12:59:33 <fizzie> boily: What do they decay to?
13:00:56 <boily> I think there are also some pear by-products, but observations are scarce and not experimentally supported.
13:00:59 <fizzie> Possibly you could derive some sort of banana-orange dating system out of it.
13:01:25 <boily> my colleagues are working on that. (no joke)
13:01:29 <Fiora> what happens if you have a pear of bananas?
13:01:32 <Fiora> how do you account for that?
13:02:11 <fizzie> Yay, a SIGGRAPH conference presentation.
13:02:41 <fizzie> (There's some former-Remedy current-NVidia-research guy.)
13:04:19 -!- nooodl has joined.
13:04:34 <boily> Fiora: we'll discuss this subject in a future paper.
13:04:40 <boily> fizzie: still assembling?
13:04:51 <fizzie> boily: I posted a photo.
13:05:12 <Roujo> I told my parent's that I met a fellow Montrealer on IRC
13:05:18 <Roujo> They asked what the channel topic was
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13:05:28 <fizzie> boily: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130802-assembly.jpg
13:05:44 <Roujo> I then had the hardest time explaining the point of making esoteric languages
13:05:55 <fizzie> (I have a feeling this presentation is going to be perhaps dumbed-down for the audience.)
13:06:03 <Roujo> "But why don't they just use Java or C++?"
13:06:15 -!- sacje has joined.
13:06:28 <boily> fizzie: oh, shiny!
13:07:30 <fizzie> boily: And think, every tiny point of light is a real, breathing human (hunched in front of a monitor).
13:07:59 <fizzie> (So far this presentation is just talking about what research is in general.)
13:08:02 <elliott> not quite. there are also finns
13:08:04 <Fiora> that looks huge and scary
13:08:34 <boily> Roujo: I work for a free software company. my parents are used to me doing weird stuff to computers and electronic parts :D
13:09:05 <Roujo> Well, so are mine =P
13:09:10 <Roujo> My father found it interesting
13:09:56 <boily> elliott: http://www.savoirfairelinux.com//
13:11:06 <Roujo> My mother was confused as to why one would try make their life harder on purpose =P
13:11:13 <Roujo> "Because they can" was my answer, really
13:11:32 <Roujo> "For fun, for the challenge"
13:12:01 <boily> and for outdoing others at bfjoust.
13:12:21 <Roujo> To be fair, I should have went with Shakespear of Chef, not Brainfuck and Malbolge
13:12:28 <fizzie> Roujo: "Because it was there" is the traditional why-climb-a-mountain answer.
13:12:37 <ion> What could possibly go wrong? http://youtu.be/lMuJKsUjD_o
13:14:05 <Roujo> Is that even possible?
13:28:07 <fizzie> Judgement for paper 1: fancy.
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13:30:18 <Roujo> elliott: Say I'd want to make an IRC bot in a language that you actually approve of. What would you suggest?
13:30:47 <elliott> um... Haskell is my go-to language for most things
13:32:15 <boily> Roujo: mine's in haskell.
13:32:55 <quintopia> elliott: do you approve of bots written in esolangs?
13:35:21 <boily> say, do we have a coffeescript bot here?
13:50:56 <fizzie> I also heard there was a "Cory Doctorow petting zoo" downstairs after his talk.
13:51:20 <fizzie> Don't know what that is like.
13:53:01 <quintopia> because no one wants to see cory doctorow give a talk?
13:53:57 <fizzie> I understand there was a reasonable audience.
13:54:25 <fizzie> From the lityle I heard, corruption in the government.
13:55:00 <quintopia> where are the papers you are judging
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13:57:44 <fizzie> https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/GMLT/
13:58:10 <fizzie> https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/FourierSVBRDF/
13:58:26 <fizzie> It was a two-in-one presentation.
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14:00:19 <fizzie> http://www.assembly.org/summer13/
14:01:27 <fizzie> (There's a set of seminars on various topics, presumably to offset all that gaming.)
14:04:19 <fizzie> They have a separate channel for the seminars.
14:04:38 <fizzie> Not sure if there's anything interesting coming up.
14:05:28 <fizzie> The main themes are graphics/game-related programmering and game0development businessy things.
14:05:55 <fizzie> (Maybe most the business talks were yesterday.)
14:08:43 <fizzie> And this fast music competition (as usual) kind of has too many entries.
14:08:58 <fizzie> They're in like #19 now.
14:09:24 <fizzie> I've forgotten 80% of these before I can get to the voting page.
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14:52:22 <Roujo> Is assembly considered an esoteric language? =P
14:52:42 <Roujo> Because I did make a virtual CPU that can run opcodes that kind of look like assembly
14:53:41 <Roujo> Then again, I implemented *that* in Java
14:55:26 <fizzie> There are some esolangs that are designed to look like weird hardware architectures.
14:55:27 <Taneb> Check out Checkout
14:55:50 <fizzie> And, uh... jump to ByteByteJump, or whatever it was called.
14:57:01 <boily> risk your sanity on OISC.
14:57:02 <Fiora> I'm not sur if assembly is esoteric but it's fun!
14:57:15 <fizzie> (And BytePusher, which is the machine around ByteByteJump.)
15:02:42 <fizzie> There certainly seems to be some overlap between esolangers and... assemblers... er, that's not the term.
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15:03:06 <boily> the thing I can't seem to find in Montréal.
15:03:25 <fizzie> Fiora's not over assembly.
15:03:26 <boily> ~duck surströmming
15:03:33 <boily> ~duck fermented fish
15:03:33 <metasepia> Fermented fish is a traditional preparation of fish.
15:03:45 <fizzie> (And ducks don't eat fermented fish.)
15:05:00 <Roujo> I am not a duck, unfortunately
15:05:16 <Fiora> fizzie: um, what constitutes being over it
15:06:18 <boily> is there any hexhamite logged on? I wonder if two canadians meeting IRL will cause the same kind of apocalypse as two hexhamers joining?
15:06:56 <Fiora> elliott is from hexham I think
15:07:01 <Fiora> sorry, it was just a typo
15:07:17 <fizzie> Fiora: No, it definitely had some deeper meaning.
15:08:04 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
15:08:22 <fizzie> Do take that one level deeper.
15:08:24 <elliott> boily: I would have to disadvise the meeting based on my measurements and predictions
15:08:30 <elliott> but I suspect it would not destroy the entire earth
15:08:46 <Roujo> boily: Do you play Ingress by any chance?
15:13:10 <fizzie> Bah, why doesn't this thing do 5 GHz wiffery.
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15:14:33 <boily> I was supposed to get my Ouya Wednesday, but UPS screwed up, and it very probably got stolen.
15:14:41 <boily> now I have to wait for Amazon to send me a replacement.
15:16:20 <fizzie> What did they put in the Ouya? Some Tegra thing?
15:16:22 <boily> I phoned them twice, and if I still haven't got anything by next Friday, then I'll have a new one. (delivered to the office. not getting fooled twice over this.)
15:16:32 <boily> a very shiny tegra 3.
15:16:53 <boily> next model will have a tegra 4, but it's not confirmed and there is some speculation that they may even upgrade to a 5.
15:16:53 <fizzie> How do the shiny Tegra 3 and a matte Tegra 3 differ?
15:17:10 <fizzie> There's a Tegra 3 in this tablet, but I think it's a bit duller.
15:17:13 <boily> it is more feng shui.
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15:31:10 <fizzie> This (Bluetooth mini-)keyboard turns itself off when one closes the cover... and apparently also when the cover is too near even if not closed. (Instructions warn against keeping it close to the keyboard.)
15:31:28 <fizzie> Makes me wonder what kind of a magic it uses to sense the cover nearby.
15:32:47 <boily> assymetrical warp matrix, but newer models use and inverted quantum variance.
15:33:39 <boily> (gotta love online technobabble generators :D)
15:57:13 <HackEgo> olist (907): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
16:06:03 <kmc> hmm I got a false highlight in another channel because someone's shortened URL happened to contain "kmc"
16:06:06 <kmc> wonder why that hasn't happened before
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16:13:44 <Bike> just train in general?
16:13:45 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
16:14:46 <john_metcalf> No. A specific train. It's running 6 minutes late :-(
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16:19:24 <john_metcalf> In Cambridge. Visited The Centre for Computing History today...
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16:21:09 <Vorpal> I am utterly confused, unbound is returned NXDOMAIN for everything on my RPi. The local unbound on my desktop works just fine.
16:21:11 <Vorpal> With everything I mean EVERYTHING, including the root servers
16:21:37 <kmc> hacked by chinese
16:22:28 <Vorpal> I switched it over to 8.8.8.8 for now while figuring this out
16:24:56 <Vorpal> It seems to report everything in the cache though...?
16:25:05 <Vorpal> when I ask it to dump the cache I mean
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16:25:18 <Gregor> <kmc> hmm I got a false highlight in another channel because someone's shortened URL happened to contain "kmc" <kmc> wonder why that hasn't happened before // because 26^3 = 17576
16:25:24 <shachaf> there's an `olist at the end of the logs hth
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16:27:30 <kmc> Gregor: but I see like a hundred shortened URLs per day
16:27:47 <Vorpal> Gregor, probably more, digits tends to be common in URL shortening too
16:28:40 <Gregor> Vorpal: Yeah, this was in the most optimistic assumption.
16:29:20 <Vorpal> What the fuck, "dig" returns the IP for example.com from the local unbound but "host" returns NXDOMAIN
16:29:24 <Vorpal> this is making no sense
16:30:54 <oerjan> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> well he's 'the favourite', with all the pinches of salt the term implies <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if there's any better evidence than the fevered imaginings of the autistic children bookies use to set the odds for things
16:30:57 <HackEgo> 1080) <Phantom_Hoover> well he's 'the favourite', with all the pinches of salt the term implies <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure if there's any better evidence than the fevered imaginings of the autistic children bookies use to set the odds for things
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16:35:39 <ion> An example program that demonstrates how to create commits using Git plumbing https://github.com/ion1/git-plumbing-create-commit
16:38:28 <oerjan> <fizzie> Roujo: "Because it was there" is the traditional why-climb-a-mountain answer. <-- the original guy _did_ die on mount everest hth
16:38:59 <Vorpal> And now it randomly started working again
16:40:11 <Bike> seeing mallory's corpse is p. weird
16:45:17 <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a vague feeling that "dig" is explicitly DNS-only, while "host" might follow the general name-resolution rules.
16:45:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: I mean, as a general comment on how they might differ; of course if you've only got DNS configured...
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16:50:11 <Roujo> oerjan: Well crap =P
16:50:30 <Roujo> Did anyone die programming in an esoteric language?
16:50:40 <Roujo> Better yet, does going insane count?
16:51:02 <fizzie> There are certainly dead esoteric language programmers.
16:51:31 <fizzie> The causal relationship is not entirely clear, because there are also dead people that were not esolangers.
16:52:26 <Roujo> I think most dead people were esolangers
16:52:38 <Roujo> At one point or another, anyway
16:52:59 <Roujo> For a very vague and large definition of esolang
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16:57:25 <Roujo> I think I am, yeah
16:57:42 <Roujo> Remember that one time, at college? The mirror thing?
16:58:02 <Roujo> Jonathan, Nathan, it's all the same anyway
17:00:12 <Roujo> It's like a co-processor
17:02:01 <elliott> I think you'll find it's the dual of Nathan
17:02:23 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg help
17:02:32 <fizzie> And a 80387 is a dual of 80386.
17:05:31 -!- mnoqy has joined.
17:06:51 <ion> 80387 is also cop̈rime to 80386.
17:07:40 <Bike> hey, it really is, nice.
17:08:17 <ion> Oh, so it seems. I thought i was talking out of my ass.
17:08:19 <kmc> n+1 is usually coprime to n isn't it?
17:09:31 <fizzie> Oh, 80387 is also just plain prime.
17:10:30 <fizzie> I concur: 80387 is prime for all n.
17:11:20 <ion> exists m. 80387 is a prime
17:11:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: I have a vague feeling that "dig" is explicitly DNS-only, while "host" might follow the general name-resolution rules.
17:11:41 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Vorpal: I mean, as a general comment on how they might differ; of course if you've only got DNS configured...
17:11:56 <Vorpal> What other than dns and the host file is there?
17:12:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, what on earth is NIS?
17:12:25 <ion> The default “hosts” line on my system: hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns4
17:12:28 <fizzie> Vorpal: LDAP-based host resolution too, I think.
17:12:29 <Vorpal> I seen that term before
17:12:34 <ion> And i’m not even using NIS/LDAP/something
17:12:38 <fizzie> Network Information Something.
17:13:17 <fizzie> There's also a NIS+, IIRC.
17:13:21 <Vorpal> ion, mine just lists localhost for ipv4 and ipv6. Oh and the actual host name as well
17:13:38 <ion> vorpal: Not /etc/hosts, the hosts line in nsswitch.conf
17:14:25 <Vorpal> My desktop has this though:
17:14:27 <Vorpal> hosts: files mdns4_minimal [NOTFOUND=return] dns mdns4
17:14:41 <fizzie> Multicast DNS, presumably.
17:14:45 <ion> mdns is a Good Thing™ especially on desktop computers.
17:15:43 <Vorpal> ion, oh? what is it used for?
17:16:07 <ion> That’s how your computers see each other by <hostname>.local without any special setup.
17:17:42 <ion> There’s a published RFC for it, and OSX and many Linux desktop systems use it by default. Also many peripherals such as HP printers. Microsoft of course doesn’t support it, but Apple provides an implementation for Windows.
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17:26:02 <fizzie> ion: IMO you're just lazy if you don't have proper DNS for everything that could conceivably have an IP address.
17:26:47 <ion> Yes, i’m lazy and proud of it. I don’t want to do extra work for something i can get for free.
17:27:36 <ion> My DNS server doesn’t really need to know or care about the hosts i happen to have in my internal network.
17:28:26 <ion> They can inform each other about their hostnames just fine.
17:29:35 <fizzie> Just "install this extra blob into your Windows" "and what about this appliance with no firmware upgrades" fine.
17:30:10 <fizzie> Also you're depriving your DNS server of its entire reason for existence hth
17:36:56 <kmc> &'static [&'static str] // what a beautiful type
17:37:18 <kmc> shachaf: I think Rust should use Unicode superscript characters for lifetimes
17:38:19 <Roujo> Oooooh, someone with voice =3
17:38:20 <Vorpal> ion, Not really useful for me I think
17:39:15 <shachaf> mnoqy doesn't need to be superscripted
17:43:10 <fizzie> Huh. An ad for the PadfoneInfinity on the big screen.
17:43:21 <fizzie> Guess those sponsors have their demands.
17:45:38 <fizzie> It's some Asus dockable phone thing.
17:45:50 <fizzie> Tablet, and a phone that slots in it.
17:45:55 <fizzie> Or that's what it looked like anyway.
17:46:24 <Vorpal> Heh, should be three steps, with a so called "phablet" as a middle step
17:48:40 <fizzie> Apparently, for technical accuracy: Padfone Infinity is the phone, and you slot it into a Padfone Infinity Station, which is completely optional.
17:48:46 <fizzie> Also the cheesiest Asus laptop ad ever.
17:48:59 <fizzie> "We sent you this device back in time so you can save the world."
17:49:49 <Roujo> >implying the phone is from the future
17:49:59 <fizzie> Roujo: The laptop (another ad).
17:50:07 <Vorpal> I understand that, it was just a "what" of disbelief
17:50:09 <Roujo> Every phone that's not released yet is IN the future
17:50:21 <fizzie> I think it was an ad for a released laptop.
17:50:21 <Roujo> So when it's actually released, it's probably FROM the future
17:50:48 <fizzie> Well, in that sense everything (that has not existed since the beginning of time) is from the future.
17:51:08 <Roujo> Then are we from the future?
17:51:14 <fizzie> Heh, the Infinity Station has a 1080p 10.1" screen, while the phone side has a... 1080p screen too, except it's 5".
17:51:50 <Roujo> I once asked someone to pronounce 1080 Ps
17:51:58 <Roujo> He didn't get it, unfortunately
17:52:49 <fizzie> For some reason it's always "ten-eighty" and not "one-thousand-eighty".
17:52:58 <fizzie> (Well, okay, the "some reason" is quite clear.)
17:53:28 <Roujo> In French it's not
17:53:45 <Roujo> Which is a bit of a shame, really
17:54:01 <Roujo> I'm rooting for 10.8 hundred p
17:54:53 <fizzie> ...French. Aren't you the guys with the four-times-twenty stuff?
17:55:12 <fizzie> And/or some assorted irregularities.
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17:55:24 <fizzie> (I did German in school, I've just heard of it.)
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17:57:56 <shachaf> Bike: https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/08/01/future-https-wikimedia-projects/
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18:12:30 <boily> fizzie: yes, we have «quatre-vingts» for 80. perfectly logical.
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18:14:43 <zzo38> Someone said, to one person, God looks like a human; to another person, God looks like a flower; etc. What is your opinion about this?
18:15:04 <boily> that humans have more proteins than flowers.
18:15:41 <zzo38> OK, but I don't think that has anything to do with it.
18:17:35 <fizzie> boily: But it wasn't a 20-based system for 40 or something like that, right?
18:17:49 <Bike> are you sure? flowers are pretty protein-tastic
18:18:15 <Bike> "IΔ0, arithmetic with induction on Δ0-predicates without any axiom asserting that exponentiation is total" hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
18:18:40 <Bike> if you add such an axiom the proof-theoretic ordinal is a power higher, gosh!
18:18:57 <elliott> Bike: I linked you that thing right.
18:19:26 <Bike> turns out i'm "bad at reverse mathematics"
18:19:45 <Bike> If you mean "warning" then yes that's why I mentioned that arithmetic here.
18:20:09 <Bike> i don't know how i got to this. i was looking at differential algebra a second ago
18:20:22 <Bike> "MLM, an extension of Martin-Löf type theory by one Mahlo-universe, has an even larger proof theoretic ordinal ψΩ1(ΩM + ω)." imo this field is too greek
18:20:34 <boily> fizzie: it's vigesimal for 60, 70, 80, 90 in metropolitan and Québec French, but decimal for everything in Swiss and Belgian French.
18:20:49 <fizzie> boily: "Perfectly logical."
18:21:03 * elliott hugs Bike to distract him from the greek letters, but little does he know that I myself am a long-forgotten member of the greek alphabet
18:21:03 <Bike> "Most theories capable of describing the power set of the natural numbers have proof theoretic ordinals that are so large that no explicit combinatorial description has yet (as of 2008) been given." nice
18:21:29 <Bike> i already lost my sister digamma to you ;~;
18:22:01 <Bike> "A single muscle's multifunctional control potential of body dynamics for postural control and running" wow i bet this hardly has anything to do with ordinals at all
18:24:41 <kmc> i saw an ad for the new Nokia Lumia phone with a 41 megapixel camera
18:25:14 <Bike> "The reason that reverse mathematics is not carried out using set theory as a base system is that the language of set theory is too expressive." oh no
18:25:22 <kmc> which is just like....... why
18:25:49 <Bike> i thought they'd given up on the "megapixel" thing by now
18:25:51 <kmc> nobody needs that many pixels
18:25:54 <kmc> yeah me too
18:26:05 <kmc> just like we gave up on processors having OMG SO MANY GHZ
18:26:07 <Bike> "In order of increasing strength, these systems are named by the initialisms RCA0, WKL0, ACA0, ATR0, and Π11-CA0." also like, seriously
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18:26:44 <oerjan> how many of those are also drug names, kmc
18:26:57 <Bike> how is Π11-CA0 (or well Π^1_1-CA_0) a useful name. it sounds like something spraypainted on a concrete wall in an abandoned military complex
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18:29:12 <kmc> Bike: you should go to Thessaloniki and admire the anti-fascist graffiti
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18:29:33 <Roujo> <+kmc> nobody needs that many pixels
18:29:37 <Roujo> They said that about memory
18:29:53 <Bike> i dunno if i want to go to greece right now, given the well, fascists.
18:29:57 <Roujo> And yet here we are
18:31:18 <elliott> Bike: the anti-fascist graffiti will protect you. that's what it's there for
18:31:27 <elliott> otherwise they wouldn't call it anti-fascist
18:31:41 <oerjan> Bike: erm the fascist regime fell in the 70's or thereabouts hth
18:32:02 <Bike> have you not heard of golden dawn
18:32:29 <Bike> have you not heard wondrous quotes like "Not being racist is in Greeks' DNA"
18:33:05 <elliott> that statement... has its own internal beauty
18:33:07 <oerjan> ...that _is_ a wondrous quote.
18:34:16 <Roujo> Depends on the Bicycle, I'd guess
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18:34:20 <Roujo> And what you did to it beforehand
18:34:41 <oerjan> everyone knows dna cannot produce things with wheels, duh
18:34:50 <Bike> unless those things are flagella.
18:34:56 <fizzie> kmc: You can do things with the pixels, is I think the official line. I mean, by default (AIUI) it takes a full-resolution image (for non-information-destroying zoom and whatnot), and a five-megapixel picture (for sharing and actual use).
18:34:56 <Bike> (bikes are not flagella)
18:35:21 <kmc> I think it's mostly a signifier that this is an expensive camera and has good optics etc
18:35:43 <Bike> oh, that reminds me. ~biology meme~ http://imgur.com/T8cXoyN
18:37:10 <elliott> fizzie: wait, what is the difference between an image and a picture.
18:37:10 <fizzie> Ongoing seminar on the right: history of web-browser demos.
18:37:16 <oerjan> cutest protein i've seen yet
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18:37:42 <fizzie> elliott: I don't think I wanted to make any difference there.
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18:41:00 <Roujo> I have no idea what's going on and I love it =P
18:41:19 <Roujo> Holy mother of hosts
18:41:30 <Phantom_Hoover> aiui it's a cellular transportation mechanism which consists of tying a bag of stuff to a set of little cell-sized legs
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19:00:37 <doesthiswork> is there any deterministic program that it has been proven that you can't prove that it halts or doesn't halt? (also well specified enough that it can be written down)
19:03:07 <boily> if it's deterministic, you can deduce any subsequent state, starting from the first one, and progressing until the end.
19:03:13 <oerjan> doesthiswork: if a program halts, you can prove it. thus any prove that you _cannot_ prove it halts is a proof that it doesn't halt.
19:05:21 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: kinesin
19:06:04 <zzo38> Yes, it halts if and only if there is a proof that it halts (even if nobody knows what this proof is, because it is too long or whatever), and I have made up a sequent calculus of Turing machine, which might be relevant but I don't know for sure.
19:06:26 <elliott> oerjan: does that hold with all the subtleties of nonstandard models and independent statements and stuff?
19:06:41 <elliott> oerjan: as in, if you prove there cannot be a proof that a program halts in ZFC, I don't immediately see that there must be a proof it doesn't halt in ZFC
19:07:16 <oerjan> argh mixing metalevels
19:07:28 <Bike> "shouldn't you be using hott........"
19:07:58 <doesthiswork> you can prove that a program halts by running it. So you prove that doesn't work, it doesn't halt
19:08:01 <oerjan> if a program halts in the "intended model" of the natural numbers, then it can be proved to halt in any reasonable logic.
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19:08:22 <zzo38> I don't think nonstandard models describe Turing machines.
19:08:23 <oerjan> of course "the intended model" is the one without any nonstandard elements.
19:08:57 <elliott> oerjan: well I think meta-levels inherently get tangled when the question is being unable to prove things :P
19:09:32 <oerjan> elliott: however, zzo38's "it halts if and only if there is a proof that it halts" does have the problem you are thinking of, i think
19:10:56 <oerjan> but i don't think my arguments requires anything more than having the right intended model and a logic which is true for it.
19:13:59 <metasepia> CYUL 021900Z 25017KT 30SM SCT040 BKN240 24/15 A2976 RMK CU4CI3 SLP076 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
19:14:09 <Bike> yeah i don't think i get it intuitively either
19:14:21 <Bike> like sure there's no halting recognizer but you can still show a program doesn't halt, what's the deal
19:15:15 <zzo38> Well, actually, I thought of something, maybe in the Turing machine sequent calculus, maybe you can have a nonstandard set of propositions next to the turnstile...
19:15:23 <elliott> well it's quite easy to imagine showing for(;;); doesn't halt, surely
19:15:30 <Bike> yeah, obviously
19:15:34 <zzo38> But then it isn't a standard Turing machine.
19:16:25 <Bike> but like, so any plan you come up with to show an arbitrary program+input halts has to not work for some subset of programs+inputs?
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19:16:58 <oerjan> yes, and moreover you can construct the counterexample easily from the plan
19:17:02 <Bike> it's super basic but i don't get it.
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19:17:13 <Bike> right, you just incorporate the recognizer
19:17:22 <zzo38> In this system, a Turing machine that halts is a theorem. If it is deterministic (so there is no way you have any choice what rule to follow or substitutions in the rule), and then you get to a same state as before, then you can know it isn't halting, although you see that from outside of the system, and not all non-halting Turing machines will be like this anyways.
19:20:04 <oerjan> zzo38: basically, any consistent logic for deciding whether a turing machine halts and which is strong enough to contain explicit simulation, will only fail on non-halting machines.
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19:20:25 <doesthiswork> (\x. x x x) (\y. y y y) is one example of a program that doesn't halt but never repeats states
19:21:49 <oerjan> that was the example i used in my underload minimization section to show :()^ couldn't be trivially decided.
19:22:00 <oerjan> (of course in the end it ended up being fully TC)
19:22:54 <fungot> doesthiswork: et tu!!!
19:23:03 <oerjan> ...Bike hasn't seen underload before?
19:24:40 <Bike> «This name is used because RCA0 corresponds informally to "computable mathematics". In particular, any set of natural numbers that can be proven to exist in RCA0 is computable, and thus any theorem which implies that noncomputable sets exist is not provable in RCA0[...] The classical theorems provable in RCA0 include: The intermediate value theorem on continuous real functions» v. nice
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19:25:55 <Bike> but not «If G is a connected graph with infinitely many vertices such that every vertex has finite degree (that is, each vertex is adjacent to only finitely many other vertices) then G contains an infinitely long simple path, that is, a path with no repeated vertices» so fuck.
19:29:35 <zzo38> oerjan: Ah, yes I suppose you are correct about that logic but even if it is not consistent, then everything is true even false things are true, so "consistent" isn't needed there. But, if it doesn't have explicit simulation then I think it isn't a Turing machine, isn't it?
19:32:24 <Bike> i should do something else. figure out the complexity class of a nematode.
19:34:38 <boily> are there any edible nematodes?
19:34:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
19:35:09 <Bike> in that much food has nematodes in it, if nothing else :3
19:36:32 <Bike> i guess they're pretty small, it'd be like edible alga
19:37:51 <boily> «purée de nématode sur craquelins de froment.» maybe there's some money to make out of that.
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19:38:16 <boily> people will eat anything if it's labelled as haute cuisine.
19:38:19 <Bike> everything sounds delicious in french
19:38:37 <boily> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2019612,00.html
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19:41:20 <boily> snail eggs: http://www.france-caviar.com/perles-de-france--caviar-d-escargot
19:42:02 <boily> lambdabot is on ipv6!
19:42:30 <Bike> boily: this is pretty good
19:42:40 <boily> Bike: you tasted them?
19:42:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Edible_algae
19:42:47 <kmc> I laser cut some seaweed once
19:42:52 <Bike> bite me kmc ;_;
19:43:07 <Bike> yes i got the plural wrong sorry
19:43:22 <elliott> requesting pics of kmc biting Bike if and when such an event occurs
19:43:24 <kmc> oh I didn't notice / care
19:43:29 <kmc> elliott: :3
19:44:34 <Roujo> boily: Do you know if Teksavvy provides IPv6?
19:45:19 <boily> looks like so: http://teksavvy.com/ipv6
19:45:36 <Roujo> I thought they would
19:45:44 <Roujo> Since they're, you know, pretty tech-savvy
19:45:51 <Roujo> They host one of Coldfront's IRC servers
19:46:29 <boily> I'm with electronic box at home. I don't know who we are wired with at work, but it's all ipv6.
19:46:31 <Roujo> >we welcome you to join us in our IPv6 on DSL Beta program.
19:46:35 <Roujo> >our IPv6 on DSL Beta program.
19:58:54 <kmc> heh, Rust floats have a .approx_eq() method which is hardcoded to an epsilon of 1e-6
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20:01:08 <elliott> sounds better than everyone just using ==
20:01:16 <Bike> i was explaining floats to somebody yesterday
20:01:36 <kmc> yeah if your application is sensitive to the exact epsilon, don't use .approx_eq() imo
20:01:40 <Bike> they had somehow gotten the impression that .48799912 (the number, not the float) was "illogical" because if you had the same digit twice in a row it had to go on forever
20:01:50 <kmc> but like... 1e-6 matches pretty well what most people would expect of "approx"
20:01:58 <elliott> Bike: are you sure you were *just* explaining floats here
20:02:06 <elliott> sounds like you were also explaining the rationals :P
20:02:08 <kmc> floats and/or maths
20:02:15 <Bike> yeah i started by explaining math
20:02:21 <Bike> it was an odd experience because like, what
20:02:36 <kmc> product of american public school system?
20:02:39 <elliott> similarly 11 should go on forever, as in the p-adic ...111111
20:02:49 <Bike> from what i could tell they were extremely confused by how they learned long division in school, yeah
20:03:03 <Bike> pretty sure i got them past that though, and on to "what the fuck are floats"
20:03:11 <elliott> I have no idea how to do long division
20:03:14 <kmc> floats are the worst is what they are
20:03:19 <kmc> is this person a programmer?
20:03:28 <kmc> elliott: I didn't understand long division until I learned how to do it with polynomials
20:03:39 <kmc> really? haha awesome
20:03:42 <kmc> but now I've forgotten that too, of course
20:04:04 <Bike> well, it's because taocp is very vehement about it, and polynomials and positional numbers being basically the same
20:04:13 <elliott> I also forget how to do short division and also every other mental arithmetic thing ever
20:04:21 <kmc> oh you're a taocp person
20:04:25 <elliott> thankfully I have invested in a computer to perform these tasks on my behalf
20:04:45 <Bike> what's a taocp person. am i bad :(
20:06:09 <boily> Bike: The Art of Computer Programming.
20:06:36 <kmc> you're not bad
20:07:57 <boily> is there anybody on #esoteric who's bad?
20:09:20 <Bike> taocp is just interesting even if knuth's idea of computer programming is often super alien to anything i have ever done with a computer
20:11:19 <boily> `learn Roujo is a Java heretic. He also claims to be Canadian. As per the Hexham treaty, he mustn't meet boily lest the Universe be destroyed.
20:11:50 <Bike> plus there's cool stuff like the in-depth analysis of the running time of euclid's algorithm
20:11:53 <Bike> it's "pretty weird"
20:11:57 <boily> (but nothing is said about me not meeting him. mwah ah ah.)
20:12:10 <kmc> does the Hexham treaty only apply to Commonwealth countries?
20:12:30 <boily> probably. do we have a member living in Asia or Africa?
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20:12:56 <Roujo> ~duck Hexham treaty
20:13:05 <Bike> i thought we had at least one south african
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20:13:29 <kmc> itidus lives in .au or .nz or something
20:14:38 <boily> thanks for two new entries :D
20:14:44 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Euclidean_algorithm_running_time_X_Y.png #blaze it
20:14:50 <Fiora> is this for the esoteric center of mas thing?
20:15:21 <Taneb> I believe itidus was Victorian?
20:15:37 <Bike> the center of mass is about a foot to my left, because i am made of depleted uranium
20:15:40 * boily adopts a very Mr. Burns-ish pose
20:15:47 <Roujo> The mass and coordinates thing
20:15:56 <Fiora> what's the center of mass currently?
20:16:22 <boily> not enough points we UNDESTANDABLE COÖRDINATES, YOU UNCOÖPERATIVE MNOKEYS!
20:16:31 -!- Guest29797 has joined.
20:16:40 <boily> damned small words.
20:16:52 <quintopia> oh so that's why boily was asking for my loaction and weight. i never guessed it was for a centroid calculation
20:16:56 <Bike> shouldn't it be "ekomnsy"
20:17:19 <quintopia> nonetheless, it is a useless exercise at the moment, as I have been moving north slowly for 4.5 months, so the centroid would be rather erratic
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20:18:03 <boily> quintopia: so yeah. can I please get your (probably very approximate) loäction and body weigh?
20:18:26 <Roujo> What's with the trémas? =P
20:18:31 <quintopia> also my weight has dropped around 40lbs. in the last 4.5 months
20:19:02 <Bike> wow way to fuck everything up quintopia
20:19:06 <quintopia> right now i am loacted in newton, ma, and that is a very temporary condition
20:19:07 <Roujo> boily: You should probably just ship biometric chips to all of us
20:19:19 <boily> quintopia: are you describing an homotetic transformation in space-time?
20:19:39 <quintopia> i am describing this computer dying and me not knowing the location of the power cable
20:19:43 <boily> Roujo: ooooooh! a very elliotty idea!
20:19:58 <boily> quintopia: thanks!
20:20:01 <kmc> Bike: that's a pretty graph
20:20:06 <Roujo> Time to take the bus!
20:20:16 <kmc> what's STM here
20:20:26 <Roujo> Société de Transport de Montréal
20:20:42 <Bike> i find that most things having to do with primes are either pretty or infuriating or boring or two of the above
20:20:53 * kmc needs to update his coördinates
20:21:07 <Fiora> can a biometric chip know your weight?
20:21:16 <boily> kmc: buses and metro. or not. sometimes they exist, sometimes they arrive late, sometimes they crash, sometimes they don't work... it's an adventure!
20:21:20 <Bike> "This result suffices to show that the number of steps in Euclid's algorithm can never be more than five times the number of its digits (base 10)" just, everything goes crazy
20:21:50 <Bike> well i guess that's just log actually
20:23:59 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull.
20:24:25 <boily> ah! another victim^Wexemplary member of our fine community!
20:25:02 <Bike> "To make this book less expensive, I did all of the typesetting myself, and I refused royalties."
20:25:15 <boily> FreeFull: sorry if I ever asked you the The Question before, but it is of utmost importance that you answer it, or we may have to implant cybernetics into your body in a forceful manner. what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
20:26:32 <kmc> right now I'm at 37.78947,-122.38912 but I sleep at about 37.75009,-122.40922
20:27:22 <Bike> http://www.math.psu.edu/simpson/sosoa/promo.html i like how dorky this is
20:27:27 <boily> fizzie: no need for that. I'm not planning for ICBMs yet.
20:27:33 <Bike> promotional material: mentioning it on a mailing list
20:27:39 <shachaf> kmc: in my experience you sleep at ~midnight-1am or so
20:27:53 <shachaf> (actually i have no idea when you sleep)
20:29:07 <kmc> fizzie: My phone says -80 feet MSL which seems... wrong
20:29:19 <FreeFull> boily: 0,4,1,5,182 and 482 megaluns
20:29:25 <kmc> because a) I can see the bay from here, and b) I am not currently underwater
20:29:54 <zzo38> If you can make a game about "Merciful to gibbering mouther and the other monsters" (or another theme, at your option) and it will run in the Z-machine VM (other than version 6), and can complete at least a playable preview (if not the whole game) by the end of September, then please try to enter Z-Comp.
20:29:54 <Bike> are you sure that the tide isn't really far out
20:30:37 <Bike> hey shachaf didn't you have a pdf of "Mathematics Made Difficult"
20:30:56 <Bike> i just read "ludicrously over-complicated proofs of the infinitude of primes (e.g., putting a topology on the naturals, etc.)" and am staring at it
20:31:16 <fizzie> kmc: Perhaps you're just so underground, conceptually.
20:31:30 <kmc> fizzie: my actual elevation is maybe 140 ft MSL
20:31:41 <kmc> assuming I know what various terms mean, which I might not
20:32:20 <fizzie> Based on the Wikipedia acronym page, that seems to mean 140 feet from the Mars Science Laboratory.
20:32:31 <Bike> mean sea level, i'm assuming
20:32:47 <Bike> possibly median sea level???
20:32:53 <boily> mean sea level. ON MARS!
20:33:08 <Fiora> I think someone being on mars might skew the centroid a little bit
20:33:11 <boily> but yeah. what's a megalun?
20:33:26 <Bike> is the mars science laboratory on mars
20:33:31 <Bike> i feel it might be deceptively named
20:33:36 <boily> Fiora: that's why it is of vital importance that I collect all these stats.
20:33:55 <fizzie> Bike: It's the name for the mission Curiosity is doing.
20:33:55 <Fiora> I think it's probably safe to assume everyone is on earth?
20:34:04 <fizzie> Bike: I guess you could argue it doesn't have a well-defined location.
20:34:19 <Bike> I guess space drones are pretty laboritorical
20:35:02 <boily> fungot, what is a megalun?
20:35:03 <fungot> boily: as well as development. i had a collision there are
20:35:27 <Bike> http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/1stbday/ wow nasa's sight is good
20:35:30 <fizzie> boily: I think it's what you get when you have a million SCSI devices in a chain.
20:35:33 <Bike> site. look at that background
20:35:42 <fizzie> (They all need a unique LUN (logical unit number).)
20:35:43 <elliott> boily: Fiora: hate to burst your bubble but I'm actually in Hexham, Alpha Centauri
20:36:03 <Fiora> how am I talking with you!!
20:36:22 <elliott> well, light is actually way faster than you think it is.
20:36:24 <Bike> elliott just predicts your messages a few hours in advance
20:36:27 <elliott> we just slow it down for humans because they're not yet ready.
20:36:30 <Bike> or however long the distance is
20:36:46 <elliott> it's also like that Doctor Who episode.
20:36:52 <Bike> yeah that one.
20:37:25 <elliott> are we thinking of the same one here
20:37:29 <elliott> (valid answers: "yes", "no")
20:37:30 <zzo38> Slow it down for humans because they are not ready? That doesn't make a lot of sense... (unless you mean something slightly different instead)
20:37:37 <Bike> i've never seen a doctor who episode.
20:38:15 <boily> `learn megalun is a chain of a million SCSI devices. FreeFull weighs 482 of them.
20:38:34 <Fiora> @google A Slower Speed of Light
20:38:35 <lambdabot> http://gamelab.mit.edu/games/a-slower-speed-of-light/
20:38:36 <lambdabot> Title: A Slower Speed of Light | MIT Game Lab
20:40:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
20:40:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.21998
20:40:40 <Fiora> I'm still trying to figure out how you could measure someone's weight with a bio implant
20:41:00 <Bike> maybe it correlates with levels of whatever chemicals in the blood
20:41:47 <elliott> Bike: it's probably the one doctor who episode people who have never seen a doctor who episode are likely to see!
20:42:11 <elliott> Fiora: just make the implant weigh, like, a billion kilograms.
20:42:22 <elliott> and then you can measure the person's weight as a billion kilograms to very high precision.
20:42:32 <boily> Fiora: what if you put the implant underneath the foot, and use it as a regular piezoelectric?
20:42:58 <Fiora> that... I guess that could work, wow
20:43:20 <Bike> the force would vary though.
20:43:57 <Bike> for example i'd become a good deal "heavier" when doing jumping jacks, as bikes do to stay fit
20:47:19 <elliott> Bike. you don't even have a foot.
20:47:51 <Bike> do i not bleed? can i not jack??
20:48:05 <FreeFull> The best way to weight someone is to put them deep into intergalactic space
20:48:08 <FreeFull> Then they don't have any weight
20:50:18 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills
20:52:52 <boily> Bike is a prime number with no foot, who jacks piezoelectrics made of neutronium? I fear I'm having a serious case of sanity slippage...
20:56:31 <kmc> http://man.he.net/man3/xdr huh
20:57:03 <kmc> i wonder if anyone uses this other than Sun RPC
20:57:48 <elliott> oh I interpreted Bike's "can i not jack??" very differently
20:58:32 <fizzie> kmc: Also I think NFS somewhere, and libvirt.
21:05:57 <kmc> oh libvert really?
21:05:59 <kmc> elliott: you too
21:06:15 <kmc> libvirt ate my balls
21:06:23 <elliott> kmc/Bike looking stronger by the minute
21:06:32 <kmc> by which I mean, libvirt and virt-manager keep getting into arguments that result in one of them crashing
21:06:34 <fizzie> I recently ran into its use of XDR on somewhere, maybe a stray comment on ##c.
21:06:37 <ion> libelliott
21:07:32 <kmc> gcc -lliott
21:08:52 <fizzie> Remember to compile your code with -Wno-elliott or gcc will be all "you should've used Haskell for this".
21:09:32 <shachaf> is that warning even included in gcc -Larry -Wall
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21:13:58 <shachaf> What's this tune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvq1mdEtjAA
21:14:09 <shachaf> Does it exist outside of Discworld 2?
21:14:37 <ion> Does it exist?
21:15:14 -!- Taneb has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:15:37 <ion> Does anything exist?
21:16:54 <zzo38> Mathematics exists.
21:19:35 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
21:20:45 <ion> Can i be sure if i don’t exist?
21:21:20 <ion> zzo38: I see what you did there.
21:21:36 <ion> Mathematics “∃”.
21:22:33 <kmc> Are you TIRED of dealing with half-assed Unicode support? *black and white video of someone comically fumbling a basket of compatibility characters encoded as CESU-8*
21:23:09 <kmc> if zzo38 did not exist it would be necessary to invent him
21:23:10 -!- Bike has joined.
21:23:19 <zzo38> Not really. Many things don't need full Unicode support (and some don't need any Unicode support).
21:24:25 <zzo38> ion: No, I didn't do that there. That is what *you* did there.
21:25:56 <Bike> @oeis 1,16,3072
21:25:57 <lambdabot> A sequence related to the period T of a simple gravity pendulum for arbitrar...
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21:30:02 <zzo38> A program to convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 may support both CESU-8 and normal UTF-8, for example. Overlong encodings might also be supported. In other applications, there will be other limitations.
21:30:52 <zzo38> For some programs you may even have codes that are outside of the range of Unicode; UTF-8 supports up to 36-bits at least.
21:32:19 <kmc> in fact CESU-8 or things like it tend to do overlong encoding of U+0000
21:32:31 <ion> Why does CESU-8 exist, btw? (Seriously, not an existence joke. :-P)
21:32:38 <Bike> http://oeis.org/A223068/list i don't like these numbers
21:32:44 <kmc> ion: I blame Oracle
21:32:55 <kmc> since Java and MySQL both do the wrong thing
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21:33:10 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if you are using a zero-byte as a terminator, then using overlong encoding for that works. VGMCK also uses overlong encoding for trailing spaces (U+0020) too.
21:33:22 <ion> Why did they choose such a representation, i wonder?
21:33:47 <kmc> because long ago, Unicode was supposed to be a 16-bit character set
21:33:54 <zzo38> ion: I suppose that any program converting UTF-8 to UTF-16 will naturally support CESU-8.
21:34:08 <zzo38> Although it ought to support the normal UTF-8 too.
21:34:17 <kmc> (or UCS was, anyway)
21:34:19 <kmc> so systems like Java, MySQL, and JavaScript ( :( :( :( ) were built around this assumption
21:34:46 <kmc> UTF-16 is a hack to retrofit full Unicode 20.1 bit characters onto UCS-2
21:35:11 <Bike> how about we just communicate with scrolls copied by monks
21:35:16 <ion> “Let’s leak the internal representation of text to the programmer, i’m sure everything will be fine.”
21:36:06 <kmc> Bike: fine as long as I get some more multiocular O's out of this bargain
21:36:20 <zzo38> UTF-8 allows much longer numbers, although they cannot be used with Unicode. (One possible use is if you are making a Glk input recording in UTF-8 format, then you can encode the Glk special key codes, which are 32-bits long.)
21:37:03 <shachaf> imo we should require at least one multiocular o in all rhymes composed in this channel
21:37:26 <ion> :────────────┐
21:37:38 <zzo38> But there is two kinds of multiocular O isn't it?
21:38:05 <zzo38> Isn't there, one kind with seven eyes and one kind with ten eyes, or something like that?
21:38:22 <ion> There’s one with “multi”
21:38:22 <kmc> shachaf: that was an amazing limerick
21:38:25 <shachaf> Well, those are different glyphs for the same letter.
21:38:42 <kmc> zzo38: I have only seen one multiocular O that predates Unicode, and it had 10 eyes
21:38:50 <kmc> but the Unicode reference glyph has 7
21:39:03 <zzo38> (Unicode doesn't tell the difference, so if you want to write about seraphims with many eyes by using this alphabet, then you cannot know if you mean they have seven eyes or ten, if you are using Unicode.)
21:39:18 <Bike> major design flaw
21:39:27 <Bike> wait i already joked re: this
21:39:28 <kmc> if I ever find myself in Sergiyev Posad, I will attempt to ask some monks in very broken Russian if they will show me some other multiocular Os
21:39:46 <kmc> or I could just like look through the online manuscript scans but that's boooooooringc
21:39:55 <ion> Who is Sergiyev Posad and why would you find yourself in him?
21:40:02 <Bike> what were the manuscripts even about
21:40:16 <ion> bike: Os mainly.
21:40:33 <kmc> Bike: jesus
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21:40:49 <Bike> new testament?
21:41:12 <kmc> if only somebody had researched this and put it on the wikipedia article about 2 years ago
21:41:15 <Bike> "For a generally accessible and less technical introduction to the topic, see Introduction to pendulum (mathematics)." oh boy
21:41:32 <kmc> ok so not jesus
21:41:55 <kmc> jesus only appears in the sequel
21:42:52 <zzo38> Sequel to what? Psalms?
21:42:54 <shachaf> imo is the sequel even canon
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21:45:09 <kmc> there is a lot of jesus fan fiction
21:45:15 <kmc> some of it is in the quran
21:45:44 <kmc> he makes clay pigeons fly
21:45:55 <kmc> as a young kid
21:46:04 <Fiora> did the book of mormon have jesus fanfic?
21:46:16 <Bike> oh that reminds me to be angry at fox for their latest bigotness
21:46:18 <zzo38> It is possible some of it is somewhat based on true stories.
21:46:21 <Bike> Fiora: it's the premise
21:46:53 <Bike> Fiora: the book of mormon is a solution to the problem of "wait, if jesus only appeared to some eurasians and you can't go to heaven w/o jesusism, americans were fucking boned"
21:47:24 <Bike> whether "native americans are actually jewish" is a good solution is up for debate.
21:47:53 <zzo38> I don't think they were Jewish, nor is that a solution.
21:48:02 <elliott> wow ok nobody told me the book of mormon was that exciting
21:48:14 <kmc> why did some white people in America in the 19th century care whether long dead native americans were in hell or not
21:48:20 <Bike> it's really dully written i assure you
21:48:21 <kmc> seems uncharacteristic
21:48:40 <elliott> kmc: white people have a long and rich history of caring deeply for the feelings of native americans [laugh track]
21:48:55 <kmc> that's why i don't litter anymore
21:48:58 <Bike> kmc: because it would be god sending people to hell for arbitrary reasons they couldn't deal with themselves, unlike being gay etc. which isn't arbitrary
21:50:00 <kmc> what about all the people who lived before jesus
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21:50:22 <zzo38> I don't really like the name "Book of Mormon" since "Mormon" is also the name of one of the books it includes.
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21:50:35 <Fiora> weren't there like endless apologetics about the subject of what happened to aristotle and other famous philosophers that the christians revered at the time?
21:50:37 <Bike> No, see, Jesus changed the rules of being saved. Before Jesus the rules were different.
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21:51:08 <kmc> then it's really his fault
21:51:46 <Bike> I don't think you're in the properly ridiculous frame of mind you need to be in to do theology.
21:52:08 <kmc> if JavaScript is Scheme with C syntax then Rust is Linear ML with C++ syntax (n.b. none of these things is true)
21:52:26 <kmc> Bike: it's similar to math right?
21:52:47 <Bike> "Everything Jesus does is good" is axiomatic, that kinda thing
21:53:01 <kmc> what about yelling at a tree for no reason
21:53:07 <zzo38> There is a "properly ridiculous frame of mind" you need to be in to do theology?
21:53:44 <Bike> zzo38: see https://twitter.com/Non_Cunningham
21:55:34 <Bike> kmc: yeah there's that and the whole business with zipporah and who fuckin knows
21:56:22 <kmc> don't know this story
21:56:31 <Bike> zipporah and the inn
21:56:37 <Bike> it's pretty incomprehensible i recommend it
21:57:26 <Bike> oh, and as long as i'm mentioning mormons i want to remind anybody who cares that they didn't allow black priests until 1978. just good to keep in mind
21:57:41 <Vorpal> Interesting, I can watch 1080p video from my RPi over NFS, but it doesn't keep up streaming over smbfs.
21:58:07 <Vorpal> Guess putting the server in the kernel helps quite a bit
21:59:22 <elliott> Bike: that does not really surprise me
22:00:04 <kmc> i wouldn't really draw that conclusion
22:00:26 <Bike> no it was meant to... thing.
22:00:39 <kmc> er that was to Vorpal
22:01:19 <Vorpal> kmc, could be other overheads too yes
22:01:48 <kmc> I watch 1080p video over HTTP and sshfs sometimes
22:02:07 <Vorpal> well that is the point, low end system
22:02:26 <Vorpal> kmc, I have no doubt it would work fine if the server wasn't a RPi
22:03:29 <Vorpal> kmc, watching data rates when copying files over either protocol indicates that there is only a small difference when copying to the RPi, but a massive difference when reading from it
22:10:21 <olsner> fizzie: at some other Assembly you should organize an #esoteric assembly
22:10:29 <Bike> hey what's the deal with double factorials
22:10:55 <olsner> that and/or people should just make independent arrangements to be there
22:10:56 <fizzie> olsner: You think anyone'd come?
22:11:19 <olsner> I'd be there if I ever managed to write or participate in writing a demo
22:12:27 <fizzie> That's not really any sort of requirement. I never manage to get anything done either. (Granted, the place is like six or eight kilometres from here.)
22:13:25 <olsner> what do you do at a demo party if you're not involved in a demo?
22:14:10 <elliott> fizzie: I'd come as long as it isn't noisy or big, so in other words I wouldn't
22:14:17 <fizzie> Spectate/vote at the compos, meet people, that sort of thing.
22:14:38 <zzo38> Can you get involved in Z-Comp?
22:14:51 <fizzie> elliott: It's actually been a *lot* less noisy this last decade, after they implemented decibel limits. (It's still noisy.)
22:15:09 <elliott> my decibel limit is, like, three.
22:16:43 * Fiora hides with elliott in the quiet not-full-of-people place
22:16:52 <fizzie> There was the "oldskool" (platforms like C64, A500 and so on) event tonight, and as usual, there were really few "proper" entries.
22:16:57 <fizzie> One slideshow-only ad for a new Finnish demoscene-culture-and-computer-stuff magazine, one invtro for a party with a silly name I forgot, one (ZX Spectrum) invtro for Sundown and one kind of minimal entry.
22:17:06 <fizzie> (And then Dekadence had done a reasonable A500 demo, which was the one proper one.)
22:17:34 <Lumpio-> Sucks you can't vote for just one entry
22:17:41 <Lumpio-> Must choose a 2nd and a 3rd one...
22:18:21 <fizzie> Invtros are a valid thing to do, though. (Still, they tend to be not all that impressive.)
22:18:22 * Bike considers forcing fiora and elliott to come to event, bringing tarp to cover them with when they get overstimulated
22:19:22 <Fiora> do you have like spacetime tarps
22:19:27 <Fiora> like, tarps that isolate you from the rest of the spacetime around you
22:19:51 <Bike> That's what regular tarps do.
22:19:57 <Fiora> but they don't block the sound
22:20:02 <yorick> no they only isolate you from space
22:20:03 <Bike> I could pad it!
22:20:11 <Fiora> they, like, they still allow timelike paths to cross them >_<
22:20:16 <Bike> yorick: i'd like to see anyone time travel through one of my tarps
22:20:23 <Bike> imo impossible.
22:20:47 <yorick> Bike: I'll just time travel with a rate of 1 second per second and walk through your tarp
22:20:56 <Lumpio-> fizzie you gotta come outwide
22:20:58 <elliott> pretty sure this is just Bike's ploy to ask me if I want to ride him when I ask about travel plans
22:21:07 <Lumpio-> To the oficial assembly meet
22:21:16 <Fiora> he's just trying to kidnap us >_<
22:21:40 <elliott> Bike kind of sounds like the least scary person you could possibly be kidnapped by, so I'm cool with that
22:21:40 <fizzie> zzo38: Not this year; they removed the "bring your own hardware" option, so the platforms are rather limited because it's only what they have available. (C64, Plus/4, A500, Atari ST, 130xe, MSX1, Speccy and Amstrad CPC6128.)
22:21:53 <Bike> if i was kidnapping you i'd use a burlap sack, not a tarp! what were you raised in a kidnappingless barn
22:22:02 <Fiora> I guess that's probably true
22:22:10 <Fiora> well, okay, elliott is probably even less scary
22:22:42 <zzo38> fizzie: Ah, OK. If they had "bring your own hardware" option, what computers did some people use?
22:23:04 <Bike> i'm sure i'm at least two petaelliotts on the fear scale.
22:23:08 <Fiora> unless "scarily cute" counts :p
22:23:15 <fizzie> zzo38: Perhaps there'll be some in the "real wild" category where you can submit a video of basically anything that can be programmed in some sense.
22:23:45 <zzo38> Will you submit the program too?
22:23:52 <fizzie> zzo38: The VIC-20 has been popular outside that list, at least. And some old consoles, like NES and original Game Boy.
22:24:06 <fizzie> zzo38: No, I haven't done anything.
22:24:17 <olsner> I thought wild compos were commonplace, where you pretty much just provide anything with a suitable video/audio output and can submit it as an entry
22:24:22 <zzo38> I mean, instead of or in addition to the video.
22:24:23 <fizzie> zzo38: Oh, there was one NES song in the music competition.
22:24:41 <Bike> elliott: btw i don't know if you recall the "route of elliott", from hexham to dili, but i'd like to point out you could take most of it by bicycle.
22:24:41 <olsner> oh, but they removed it this year?
22:24:49 <fizzie> zzo38: Oh. Yes, preferrably, though I don't think it's required.
22:25:12 <elliott> Bike: was that the stupid roundabout fucklong one
22:25:16 <elliott> or just the fucklong one that wasn't that roundabout
22:25:26 <Bike> what do you mean roundabout
22:25:30 <fizzie> olsner: Wild's still there. They just had a bring-your-own-device option in the "Oldskool demo" category.
22:25:30 <elliott> the roundabout one involved taking ferries to europe just to get from one point of the UK to another.
22:25:37 <elliott> it was a beautiful triumph of Google's pathfinding algorithms
22:25:47 <zzo38> If I made it I would require the program, as well as a hardware for it to run on or an emulator which can run it
22:25:47 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Also I'm at home.
22:25:48 <Bike> elliott: dili's across indonesia so you won't have that problem.
22:25:55 <elliott> ok right so the other one.
22:26:12 <elliott> Bike: but it would take, like, at least 24 hours, right?
22:26:27 <elliott> so what you're saying is I should ride a bike all night long.
22:26:28 <Bike> do you have to be back for bed time
22:27:06 <Bike> it's actually a little over a fortnight.
22:27:14 <zzo38> Is there anything about if the hardware gets damaged by the program? Can this be done using the computers you listed? (I know with the Famicom it is probably possible to damage it if you set the PPU to slave mode, since it will try to output a high signal to pins connected directly to ground; they should have put pull-down resistors there but they didn't (and if I make a hardware clone, I will put resistors there).)
22:27:16 <elliott> I don't have that kind of stamina, Bike.
22:27:31 <Bike> "This route includes a ferry."
22:27:50 <olsner> "This route includes a demo party in Finland."
22:27:57 <fizzie> zzo38: Well, the rules say it must be delivered in executable form "if possible". But sometimes there's things like creative output devices, like that oscilloscope thing, where that doesn't really apply. (I think that one included a video, and then a sound file that made the oscilloscope picture.)
22:28:30 <zzo38> But you might make an emulator of it and/or schematics?
22:29:03 <Bike> Turn left at Faisal Medical Store
22:29:10 <zzo38> For the oscilloscope then of course a stereo sound file can help, although some lossy codecs are unsuitable.
22:29:30 <Bike> "Pass by Ahsan Ali -SEO Expert -SEO " see you could use this elliott
22:30:43 <elliott> I wonder if the route link is in the logs
22:30:50 <elliott> the one that went to antarctica and stuff
22:32:31 <fizzie> Lumpio-: I've been progressively less "on board" every year. Back in the 90s I bought the desktop and speakers and slept under the table (before that was forbidden) and did the whole live-in thing; last few years I've been just bringing the laptop and mostly Bike-ing home to sleep; and this year I've just got the tablet and external keyboard, and went home at like 11pm.
22:33:37 <elliott> sleeping under the table sounds a little unpleasant
22:34:07 <fizzie> elliott: It's also verboten nowadays. Fire risk this and security that.
22:34:24 <fizzie> People did kick you in the head occasionally, there's that.
22:34:37 <kmc> anyone going to 30C3?
22:35:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh there is a demo thingy going on now?
22:35:39 <fizzie> They're also much more serious with the checking of baggage on the entrances now that it's a "mainstream" event.
22:35:49 <zzo38> Do the programs ever damage the hardware? (I do not know of any Famicom emulator that will display a warning when the PPU is switched into slave move, although it is a feature I would like to see.)
22:35:57 <kmc> fizzie: checking it for dangerous things? or for drugz?
22:36:10 <olsner> hmm, so where do people sleep if you can't sleep under the tables?
22:36:20 <Vorpal> olsner, on top of them?
22:36:22 <fizzie> kmc: Well, and alcohol; you need to go outside for that.
22:36:29 <kmc> at Coachella they made people dump out water bottles, I guess because you could sneak booze in, but also so that you would buy overpriced water inside :(
22:36:37 <kmc> alcohol is a drug
22:36:40 <olsner> Vorpal: presumably about as verboten as under the tables sleeping
22:36:44 <fizzie> olsner: There's separate sleeping areas in the third floor hallways.
22:36:47 <Vorpal> olsner, I guess so yeah
22:37:00 <olsner> kmc: are you going to 30C3?
22:37:12 <kmc> olsner: maybe
22:37:17 <kmc> i haven't made any plans or anything
22:37:19 <elliott> kmc: so is caffeine technically
22:37:20 <kmc> but it sounds fun
22:37:21 <olsner> the web page boasts 22 people attending!
22:37:21 <fizzie> kmc: Don't tell anyone, but people did DRUGZ inside in dark corners back when the event was still at the Congress Centre.
22:37:22 <kmc> elliott: yes
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22:37:42 <kmc> fizzie: you were there before it was cool
22:37:54 <kmc> elliott: im doing drugz at work, right now
22:38:11 <elliott> kmc: recording this in my "in case I ever need to blackmail kmc" file
22:38:14 <fizzie> kmc: It's not really cool yet either, I think the right word is "popular".
22:38:23 <kmc> 2 cool 4 school
22:39:03 <fizzie> zzo38: I haven't heard of any case of that happening, and it's not mentioned in the rules. I guess they'd try to figure out if it was intentional or accidental.
22:39:06 <Bike> oh nice, somebody leaked the official GBC programming manual. for, some reason
22:39:17 <Vorpal> kmc, meaning you don't want to get a proper well paid job after?
22:39:28 <zzo38> Bike: Does it have anything that the unofficial ones don't have?
22:39:44 <Bike> it's several hundred pages
22:39:52 <zzo38> fizzie: I would like if an emulator is able to detect these kind of things, though.
22:39:53 <Vorpal> Bike, GBC standing for?
22:41:58 <Bike> "RULES OF ATTRACTION: CATCHING A PEAHEN'S EYE" i was not ready for paper titles
22:43:05 <Bike> http://jeb.biologists.org/content/216/16/i.1.full about what you'd expect
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22:44:07 <yorick> Bike: you didn't even mention things about fisherians runaways in your into!
22:44:35 <kmc> http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#sentinels ghostly sentinels
22:44:44 <Bike> my intro to what now
22:44:46 <yorick> elliott: I never speak
22:44:50 <yorick> Bike: to the paper thingy
22:45:04 <olsner> kmc: does rust use llvm for the backend?
22:45:16 <elliott> This is always a work in progress.
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22:45:18 <Bike> "The model did not find strong support, in part because it is difficult to experimentally test.[citation needed]" irony?
22:45:51 <Bike> "LIFE AT HIGH pH: MANAGING AMMONIA" #blazeit
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22:47:23 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
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22:47:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: If you're interested in graphics things, there was a presentation at Assembly describing two (SIGGRAPH) papers from our university that both were at least mildly interesting.
22:47:48 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/GMLT
22:47:56 <fizzie> Vorpal: https://mediatech.aalto.fi/publications/graphics/FourierSVBRDF
22:48:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm, the first one looks mildly interesting indeed
22:48:20 <fizzie> (I haven't checked what material they have there, I just saw the talk.)
22:48:28 <Vorpal> I have no idea what SVBRDF is
22:49:12 <olsner> Vorpal: that's what you can capture practically in the frequency domain
22:49:16 <fizzie> The GMLT is a raytracery kind of thing, and the latter is "collect material parameters (for a renderer) from samples without fancy custom hardware".
22:49:16 <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10
22:49:27 <Fiora> Bike: um. that doesn't sound very hospitable
22:49:44 <fizzie> Like, diffuse/specular stuff and surface normals and that kind of stuff.
22:49:46 <Fiora> 9 is apparently baking soda
22:49:46 <Bike> is it basic or acidic
22:50:01 <Bike> well apparently some fish live in that.
22:50:01 <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right?
22:50:04 <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff
22:50:26 <fizzie> (And the non-fancy hardware includes a DSLR and a monitor used as a controllable area light they put patterns on.)
22:50:35 * Fiora knows she has succeeded whenever bike says 'shut up'
22:52:25 <Bike> the last time i did pH stuff was high school ;~;
22:53:18 <fizzie> Bike: Was it p. "H"(ot stuff).
22:53:22 <shachaf> every time i visit kmc is like high school
22:54:38 <olsner> does shachaf live in kmc territory?
22:55:04 <Fiora> `quoteadd <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:55:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found
22:55:11 <Fiora> agh what's the command again <.<
22:55:26 <Fiora> `addquote <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:55:27 <kmc> _$SP$fn.$x27static$LP$$BP$Window$C$$x20i32$C$$x20i32$C$$x20i32$C$$x20i32$RP$::_e8625186375dbd8e::glue_drop_4727
22:55:30 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:55:30 <kmc> best function name
22:55:43 <kmc> yorick: Rust actually
22:55:46 <olsner> that's not c++ mangling
22:55:57 <kmc> c++ mangling I could undo with c++filt
22:56:11 <yorick> there is probably a way to undo this
22:56:12 <kmc> in fact Rust uses C++ mangling too, this has already been de-mangled once
22:56:20 <kmc> there is certainly a way in principle, I could write the tool, I may do it
22:56:22 <elliott> `run sed -i '1081s/</ </;1081s/^ //' quotes
22:56:27 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:56:30 <Bike> does nm include rust demangling yet
22:56:41 <elliott> `run sed -i '1081s/</ </g;1081s/^ //' quotes; quote 1081
22:56:45 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
22:56:46 <Bike> wave of the future and all
22:57:31 <Bike> does rust specify a manglation
22:58:03 <olsner> it probably does run manglatons
23:00:21 <kmc> manglatron
23:01:33 <kmc> we heard you like double frees so we put a call to your destructor in your destructor so you caSegmentation fault
23:03:09 <olsner> hmm, that reminds me, some c++ compilers automatically call destructors when you longjmp
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23:04:38 <olsner> (others don't ... good luck knowing which one you are)
23:05:17 <elliott> set up a destructor to test it
23:05:29 <shachaf> That's not something I'd expect from longjmp...
23:06:18 <zzo38> I have once made up some sokoban compression, which worked well (and Huffman coding it would improve it even more; I calculated how much more), but could a better one be made, so that games that are impossible to solve are not representable (or at least so a lot of them are)?
23:09:56 <kmc> I know you're not allowed to goto / switch-jump across the construction of a non-POD object
23:10:22 <kmc> Plain Old Data
23:10:26 <Vorpal> Fiora, what C++ programmers call normal C structs
23:10:49 <Fiora> so you can't jump across the call to a constructor?
23:11:00 <Vorpal> Correct, pretty sure it is a compiler error
23:11:44 <Vorpal> Fiora, of course it will be possible if that object is no longer in scope
23:11:55 <Vorpal> the issue is the cases where it would be in scope
23:14:38 <kmc> C++ vaguely tries to ensure that if you have a value of type Foo (or &Foo) then it's been properly initialized by Foo's constructor
23:14:45 <kmc> of course there are many of ways to break this by casting and such
23:14:57 <Fiora> ahhhh, that makes sense
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23:16:25 <shachaf> iamfishhead: what's the "Y X is best X" thing?
23:21:12 <kmc> eg "Caltrain is best train"?
23:21:58 <olsner> eg "cal train is best train"?
23:22:38 <Vorpal> fizzie, That metropolis paper is quite interesting indeed
23:36:26 <kmc> when I'm pissed off with computers I go and interact with people, and then when I get pissed off about people I go back to interacting with computers
23:36:29 <kmc> it all makes sense really
23:36:47 <kmc> n.b. this is less obvious than it seems because a lot of the interacting with people is done via computers
23:36:51 <shachaf> kmc: what if it's computer people
23:37:03 <kmc> usually is
23:37:32 <olsner> do bots count as people or computers?
23:38:03 <shachaf> what about interacting with different people
23:38:24 <shachaf> or is it an annoyance with people in general
23:39:01 <kmc> sometimes either
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23:39:30 <shachaf> with "people in general" i'm often not so much annoyed as exhausted or something
23:40:06 <kmc> yeah that's true
23:40:16 <kmc> it's possible to run out of social energy without being in anyway upset or perturbed
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