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00:16:24 <Fiora> "100.75 T: strongest (pulsed) magnetic field yet obtained non-destructively in a laboratory"
00:16:28 <Fiora> "730 T: strongest pulsed magnetic field yet obtained in a laboratory, destroying the used equipment, but not the laboratory itself"
00:16:36 <Fiora> 2.8kT: "strongest (pulsed) magnetic field ever obtained (with explosives) in a laboratory"
00:16:42 <Fiora> Bike: #overlyhonestmethods
00:17:12 <Jafet> I recommend using explosives outside of laboratories
00:17:14 <Fiora> I lost it at "but not the laboratory itself"
00:18:49 <shachaf> why did i use to think the word was "labroratory" years ago
00:19:05 <shachaf> apparently that's p. common so maybe i picked it up from someone else
00:23:12 <Fiora> "The facility contains 14 resistive magnet cells connected to a newly upgraded 48 megawatt DC power supply and 15,000 square feet (1,400 m2) of cooling equipment to remove the heat generated by the magnets." @____@
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00:31:24 <Bike> Fiora: #perfectlyhonestmethods
00:32:08 <shachaf> #thingsthatlooklikeircchannelnames
00:32:10 <Bike> Fiora: also https://twitter.com/search?q=%23sciconfessions
00:34:10 <shachaf> hmm, does Bike follow me on twitter
00:35:17 <Fiora> "Had this as the forward to my thesis because mice ruled my life for the last 2 years. http://instagram.com/p/RNm5_7w2rc/ " oh gosh
00:36:25 <Fiora> "who knew some bins weren't autoclave safe"
00:37:46 <Bike> still somewhat worried that "walk-in autoclave" is a thing that exists
00:38:08 <Fiora> "I've exposed and developed X-ray film to make extremely dark eye protectors for the lab to look at a solar eclipse."
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00:40:05 <Fiora> "Cabbages shatter into a million tiny bits if you put them in liquid nitrogen and then throw them at each other #sciconfessions"
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00:43:38 <Bike> who didn't do that in high school
00:44:20 <shachaf> Fiora: How many years of bad luck is that?
00:44:28 <shachaf> I don't think that was covered in my manual...
00:44:30 <Fiora> I didn't do it >_<
00:44:48 <Jafet> This is probably how they make frozen shredded cabbage
00:45:10 <Fiora> "I used 200 proof EtOH to make jello shots "
00:45:29 <Fiora> "I used the autoclave to cook corn on the cob. It was delicious on a 5 min fast exhaust cycle"
00:45:33 <Fiora> ohmy gosh this tag
00:45:55 <shachaf> Bike: hey do you actually need the object mapping part of a functor
00:49:38 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.labsolutely.org/2013/07/31/sciconfessions-confess-your-lab-sins/ here's a summary list thing
00:51:09 <Bike> "As an undergrad, I managed to melt laboratory glassware during practicals. Now I am doing bioinformatics. " there's a cruel joke here
00:54:25 <kmc> > (2*3*5*7)^2
00:54:26 <Fiora> um. which list is the homestuck list
00:55:27 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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00:59:38 <pikhq> Yaaay, new box up.
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01:07:00 <Bike> chickens have magnetoreception. what the fuck
01:07:59 <kmc> what do they use it for
01:08:25 <Bike> navigating. i guess.
01:08:49 <Bike> you can train them to find a "social stimulus" (haven't read the paper) along magnetic axes.
01:12:35 <pikhq> IIRC humans have profoundly weak magnetoreception.
01:19:37 <Jafet> Some humans, however, have found strong magnets irresistible
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01:43:40 <zzo38> Does Bxh8# ever happen? (I can make up a way for it to happen, but I don't know if they have actualy done this.)
01:44:14 <kmc> chess notation?
01:45:13 <monotone> Bishop in a corner, capturing for checkmate.
01:45:41 <pikhq> Bishop takes at H8 checkmate? Hmmmm.
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02:00:03 <madbr> you'd have to do it by moving out of some other piece's way no?
02:00:12 <madbr> like out of a rook or a queen's path
02:00:43 <zzo38> Yes, it does have to be discovered check, as far as I can see.
02:05:51 <madbr> moving to a corner doesn't add any new squares available to the bishop
02:06:00 <madbr> so it can't give check
02:13:58 <zzo38> Infocom's documentation for the PTSIZE instruction of the Z-machine has the strange wording "Guaranteed to return a meaningless value".
02:15:04 <shachaf> maybe it was written by nal
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02:23:50 <kmc> who's that
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02:57:30 <Bike> Couldn't you have Bxh8# by having the bishop moving /away/ from where it was cause it, and the capture be incidental?
03:02:18 <zzo38> I do not understand what you mean.
03:02:46 <zzo38> Do you mean a discovered check?
03:03:15 <Bike> yes, that's the term, sorry.
03:03:26 <zzo38> Yes, that is also what I wrote above.
03:03:32 <zzo38> And what madbr wrote too.
03:03:42 <pikhq> Yeah, discovered works.
03:06:26 <zzo38> Maybe like this: 4K1kn/6B1/6Q1/8/8/8/8/8 (This is the one I was thinking of when I wrote "I can make up a way for it to happen", but I was also wondering if an actual chess game in some tournament was ever with a move Bxh8#)
03:07:11 <Bike> all of the chess move databases i found in cursory googling are only openings.
03:08:16 <madbr> what's the worst possible chess opening?
03:08:27 <zzo38> The Scholar's Mate, I guess.
03:08:37 <zzo38> Actually the Fool's Mate is the worse.
03:08:47 <pikhq> Maybe at least a chess problem.
03:08:58 <madbr> aside from the one where white opens up to checkmate in 2 moves yeah
03:09:00 <zzo38> Scholar's Mate is when the opponent does it.
03:09:18 <Fiora> "20. The Ammonia Attack (Nh3) - Pros: None. Cons: All the same as Na3, plus the king's knight is arguably of slightly more potential importance in the opening than the queen's since the e-pawn needs extra protection in ways the d-pawn doesn't."
03:09:22 <Bike> Are there mates in any number of moves more than two?
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04:48:43 <Sgeo> ProfStef has jumped the shark
04:50:23 <Sgeo> It's not at all obvious how to get to it in a useful way from opening Pharo for the first time
04:50:58 <Sgeo> There is a ProfStef tutorials button, but trying it leads to a help browser, which doesn't support right-clicking a selection to DoIt, completely screwing the innocent user out of being able to follow the tutorial
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05:56:12 <zzo38> I have read recently of a chess variant called "Czech Chess", which is: If the piece you moved gives check, put a pawn of your own color in the space it moved from. If the space it moved from is in the promotion zone, the placed pawn is immediately promoted. There is no promotion to queens in this game.
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08:42:24 <kmc> hi everybody
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08:50:59 <Taneb> I had a weird dream last night
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08:53:57 <Taneb> It was at a small social do near the entrance to an abandoned mine
08:54:18 <Taneb> (the abandoned mine probably wasn't important, might be to do with the Lego I bought yesterday)
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08:56:50 <shachaf> Taneb: did you know every functor : C -> Set that has a left adjoint is representable?
08:57:51 <shachaf> in particular, in haskell, if F and G are endofunctors and F -| G, then G x ~ (R -> x) for some R
08:58:40 <shachaf> this is kind of straightforward because F -| G p. much means forall a b. (F a -> b) ~ (a -> G b)
09:21:52 <Taneb> Anyway, in this dream, I made friends with some guy who had moved from south-east Asia
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09:58:32 <Taneb> And then I gave him a hug and it turned out he was gay and had a crush on me
10:01:26 <fizzie> Heh, there's a guy giving a seminar on PS4 development.
10:01:44 <fizzie> "Please don't take any photos and this won't be streamed."
10:01:54 <fizzie> I'm getting some EXCLUSIVE info here, that's fer shur.
10:02:18 <fizzie> (It's some guy who's a "Principal Engineer" at SCEE R&D.)
10:02:59 <fizzie> "There are some slides here that are... sensitive."
10:03:24 <Taneb> "Please don't hurt their feelings"
10:04:44 <fizzie> So far it's just been a PR blurb.
10:05:01 <fizzie> "Core Gamers" "fun for the whole family" "frictionless interaction" blah blah.
10:06:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
10:07:20 <fizzie> Well, at least it proceeded on to some specs and such.
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10:14:08 <fizzie> Lots of emphasis on doing general sort of computing on the GPU.
10:15:14 <oerjan> @ask quintopia <quintopia> nonetheless, it is a useless exercise at the moment, as I have been moving north slowly for 4.5 months, so the centroid would be rather erratic <-- are you on a boat or something
10:15:19 <oerjan> 20:17:19: <Bike> ekmnosy
10:16:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe it was a reference to continental drift.
10:16:31 <oerjan> how did i manage to select bike's comment too
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10:39:50 <fizzie> TIL: PS4 has a hardware video encoder that's always on and keeps a buffer of the last few minutes of what's happened.
10:40:06 <fizzie> (They seem to be very much about the social thing.)
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10:45:51 <fizzie> Next up: "Strange Days in the Rift"
10:46:34 <fizzie> (It's something related to the Oculus thing.)
10:48:14 <Jafet> I need the same thing for my terminal
10:51:08 <fizzie> Yes, who needs to see the world when you've got a terminal.
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11:03:42 <fizzie> Rift seems to be hip and pop, those seating places are all filled up.
11:05:28 <fizzie> Meh; I tried to make that presence plot finger-draggably, but for some reason it only drags for a small amount and then stops.
11:12:36 <fizzie> t suppose Android-Chrome has some way of e.g. showing the console.foo() logs?
11:14:00 <Lumpio-> You connect it up to your computer with USB debugging
11:14:11 <Lumpio-> And you can run the whole developer tools thing on your computer
11:14:14 <fizzie> But I'm here with the tablet only.
11:14:20 <Lumpio-> Debugging and inspecting also works.
11:14:40 <fizzie> I guess I could just postpone fixing it until I get home.
11:14:53 <fizzie> But that's so easy, like a monoid.
11:18:42 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
11:19:36 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:20:50 <Jafet> @quote lax.functor
11:20:50 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
11:23:22 <fizzie> `pastlog love.*so easy
11:23:29 <HackEgo> 2013-02-26.txt:18:40:12: <elliott> I love morpeth, it is so easy
11:23:40 <fizzie> `pastelogs love.*so easy
11:23:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.8686
11:24:22 <katla> pls explain <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
11:24:50 <katla> monoid laws (identity and associativity) give monad laws
11:24:52 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
11:25:27 <fizzie> (It's the most useful learndb.)
11:25:54 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
11:26:19 <HackEgo> isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
11:27:03 <katla> so you have an endofunctor M, with morphisms 0, 1, 2, 3, ...
11:27:29 <katla> how does that give you a monad M with eta and mu
11:33:31 <oerjan> the "monoid in a category" thing is something very abstract that is not the same as an ordinary monoid.
11:34:36 <oerjan> in some sense, eta is the "identity" and mu is the "multiplication", iirc
11:35:57 <oerjan> except i've forgotten how exactly it goes.
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11:38:46 <oerjan> eta :: x -> m x, mu :: m (m x) -> m x and eta . mu = id, mu . fmap eta = id is what corresponds to the identity laws
11:39:00 <oerjan> and hm associativity would be...
11:39:08 <oerjan> mu . fmap mu = mu . mu
11:39:40 <oerjan> m (m (m x)) -> m x and it doesn't matter which m you apply the mu to
11:39:55 <katla> oh right if M (an endofunctor) is your object, then your monoid maps (0, 1, and all the rest) are natural transforms
11:40:33 <oerjan> ...what do 0, 1 have to do with monoids
11:41:03 <katla> i just think of a monoid that way
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11:41:40 <katla> i guess thats wrong
11:41:50 <oerjan> well a monoid has an identity which you might call 0 or 1, but i have no idea what you mean if you use both
11:44:08 <oerjan> the morphisms in the category of endomorphisms are natural transformations though.
11:48:13 <katla> so we have endofunctor M and id : M -> M and * : MxM -> M
11:49:10 <oerjan> i have been trying to point that what's meant by "monoid in a category" is _not_ a monoid in the usual sense.
11:50:28 <oerjan> it's what you get if you put the idea of "monoid" through a process of analogy to a categorical level, which i think can be applied to any sort of algebra.
11:51:59 <oerjan> basically, think of m (m x) as analogous to MxM, and mu as your *
11:52:46 <katla> thanks for helping expose this lie
11:52:57 <fizzie> Category theory: provoking strong emotions since [year].
11:52:57 <oerjan> well it is a construction category theoreticians use, anyway
11:53:31 <oerjan> katla: well the whole "monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors" thing is a half-joke anyway.
11:54:02 <oerjan> so it is really to be expected that the thing on the right is more complicated than it seems.
11:55:30 <fizzie> "The presentation will showcase Z Vector (http://www.z-vector.com). A new type of real-time VJ and music visualization software specifically made for depth sensors such as the Microsoft Kinect and the PrimeSense Carmine. The basic functionality of the software will be covered ("virtual camera tracking", stereoscopic rendering, GLSL shaders etc.). Tuomisto will also do a short real-time, fully ...
11:55:36 <fizzie> ... live controlled improvisational performance to a set music background."
11:55:55 <katla> if you just replace x with o (composition) it works?
11:56:57 <oerjan> i suppose that is what it does, sort of
11:58:08 <oerjan> mind you i am not entirely clear on this, since i have not learned how this analogizing works for more general things than monoids. i just remember the diagrams i saw for monads ~ monoids.
11:59:10 <oerjan> i expect wikipedia probably has articles on this stuff.
12:10:29 <HackEgo> 1081) <Bike> Fiora: hey gimme a ballpark here, how hospitable is a pH of 10 <Bike> is it basic or acidic <Fiora> bike you should know this stuff, you know biology right? <Fiora> this is like. basic stuff. <Bike> shut up
12:23:16 <Phantom_Hoover> katla, i think you need to use a categorical formulation of monoids in general
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12:32:42 <fizzie> PLOT OF THE DAY https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130803-tmp.png
12:34:18 <fizzie> I'm also not entirely certain it's correct.
12:34:41 <fizzie> But who can say, right?
12:36:32 <fizzie> I think the X axis is time (from 1000 days ago to yesterday, left-to-right) and the Y axis goes from 0 Hz (top) to 0.00055 Hz (bottom).
12:39:58 <fizzie> The peak at about 10 pixels from the top corresponds to (1/24*60*60) Hz.
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12:43:41 <oerjan> is it a plot, or fizzie's felt carpet? only time will show.
12:44:00 <yorick> fizzie: and ehm, what is the actual data?
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12:47:23 <oerjan> <Fiora> I lost it at "but not the laboratory itself" <-- i like how that implies the next item listed _did_ destroy the laboratory.
12:47:49 <oerjan> @tell Fiora <Fiora> I lost it at "but not the laboratory itself" <-- i like how that implies the next item listed _did_ destroy the laboratory.
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13:09:39 <fizzie> yorick: Channel activity. (Number of characters in messages during 15-minute intervals.)
13:10:27 <yorick> so what happened during that week where nothing happened?
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13:10:28 <quintopia> fizzie: oh, you've got some nice new graphs?
13:10:43 <yorick> nice is an overstatement :P
13:10:46 <fizzie> quintopia: Sadly, no. Just "new", not "nice".
13:11:17 <yorick> fizzie: also, why is there a white line about 10 pixels from the top?
13:11:33 <fizzie> yorick: I explanated that.
13:11:46 <fizzie> yorick: It's the 1/(24*60*60) Hz line.
13:12:15 <yorick> <fizzie> I think the X axis is time (from 1000 days ago to yesterday, left-to-right) and the Y axis goes from 0 Hz (top) to 0.00055 Hz (bottom).
13:12:20 <fizzie> quintopia: It's just the STFT of channel activity.
13:12:52 <fizzie> There's a guy here talking on the topic of "How Not to Suck at Pinball". (Apparently some kind of pinball professional/enthusiast.)
13:13:17 <Lumpio-> There's an obvious column of less activity with more activity after it around the middle area
13:13:45 <fizzie> Lumpio-: Could be an artefact in my logs.
13:14:13 <fizzie> quintopia: Yes, and the intensity axis is logarithmic.
13:14:30 <yorick> fizzie: so the line is there because of the "day changed" message?
13:14:31 <Lumpio-> So it's the other way round then ¬u¬
13:14:48 <yorick> yes who makes graphs that have white higher
13:15:36 <fizzie> yorick: No, it's there because the overall channel activity has a strong daily variation: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/people_tod.html
13:15:52 <fizzie> (If you imagine that repeating, it's almost a sine wave at that frequency.)
13:25:50 <fizzie> Android YouTube player can't be left to play things in the background? Aww.
13:26:55 <yorick> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22989236/fixedit.png <-- tell me that this is a nice sine graph then :P
13:30:40 <fizzie> yorick: Any hump in a storm...
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14:15:15 <Fiora> oerjan: basically, yeah XD
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14:24:54 <fizzie> It's like everyone and their brother did a 1k intro this year.
14:24:58 <fizzie> There were like 13 entries.
14:25:22 <fizzie> It was terribly popular last year too; it's like the up-and-coming competition format.
14:26:30 <Fiora> I remember seeing 4K ones get really impressive a few years ago, maybe they're moving to 1K because it's harder to stand out as a 4K?
14:26:43 <fizzie> Yes, that is most likely what's happening.
14:26:52 <fizzie> They're PUSHING that BOUNDARY.
14:27:20 <fizzie> IIRC, pouet's categorization dropdown already goes down to 16b or 32b or so.
14:28:00 <fizzie> The entries of that category aren't... terribly interesting.
14:28:10 <Fiora> is 256b small enough that compression isn't usually used?
14:28:15 <Lumpio-> The 1k ones now are pretty much as good as 4k ones a couple years ago
14:29:09 <fizzie> Fiora: There aren't that many 256b's, but the break-even point w.r.t. compression is probably somewhere there.
14:29:43 <fizzie> Of course if you "cheat" you don't necessarily have to include decompression code, which means it can still be a win as long as the compression format has low overhead.
14:30:17 <fizzie> The 1ks were quite "fractally", unsurprisingly.
14:31:06 <fizzie> The "pipe $0 through xz" approach.
14:32:45 <Fiora> geez, do they allow that?
14:32:58 <Fiora> also I thought the demos used, like, COM files, so they didnt have to have the ELF overhead (?)
14:33:03 <fizzie> I haven't checked the rules, exactly; but I've seen that sort of stuff.
14:33:21 <fizzie> Fiora: I don't think you can have COM files on Linux sensibly. :p
14:33:31 <Fiora> all the ones I remember seeing were for windows...
14:33:40 <fizzie> Or in Windows if you want to call DLLs, I don't think.
14:34:11 <fizzie> I was under the impression that if you run a .com file, it gets ran under the old 16-bit virtual thing.
14:34:40 <fizzie> Though I'm certainly no expert on DOS/Windows demos.
14:35:04 <Fiora> ummmmm http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=32589 maybe?
14:35:18 <Lumpio-> Yeah you can gzip your stuff on Linux for about 50b of overhead
14:35:29 <Fiora> http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?type[]=256b most of these seem to say DOS?
14:35:32 <Lumpio-> I just did that for teh lulz
14:35:39 <Fiora> oh gosh, one is for the commodore 64 @_@
14:35:57 <Lumpio-> Well DOS has a zero-overhead executable format
14:36:04 <fizzie> Lumpio-: My uncompression wrapper is 59 bytes, but it properly uses mktemp instead of the conventional hardcoded /tmp/X.
14:36:16 <Lumpio-> http://lumpio.dy.fi/b/lors.sh
14:36:23 <fizzie> 59 bytes is a reasonable fraction of 256 bytes, though.
14:36:33 <Lumpio-> I should rewrite that so that it works on a vanilla ubuntu or something
14:36:42 <Lumpio-> Yeah well it's a balancing act.
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14:36:58 <fizzie> I'm having trouble following links here. SSH works nice, web-browsing less so.
14:37:25 <fizzie> x=`mktemp`;tail -n+2 $0|lzcat>$x;chmod +x $x;$x;rm $x;exit
14:37:46 <Lumpio-> Yeah mine-s the same except with no mktemp and zcat instead of lzcat
14:38:01 <katla> what does that do??
14:38:19 <katla> <fizzie> x=`mktemp`;tail -n+2 $0|lzcat>$x;chmod +x $x;$x;rm $x;exit
14:38:26 <fizzie> You prefix a compressed executable with it.
14:38:48 <fizzie> Then when you run it, it'll uncompress the rest (tail -n+2 $0 is the rest of the file) and runs the result.
14:39:09 <Fiora> that's really sneaky
14:39:17 <fizzie> Another popular Linux/ELF intro trick: import dynamic library symbols by hash.
14:39:37 <fizzie> ("Asymptotic" cost of 4 bytes/symbol, whereas the names can be quite long.)
14:39:41 <Lumpio-> I was lazy and just linked everything normally
14:39:53 <Lumpio-> Or even less than 4 if you can come up with a good hash!
14:40:11 <Lumpio-> I wonder what audio codecs vanilla ubuntu comes with
14:40:19 <Lumpio-> I'm sure it doesn't do MP3 and it'd be the most efficient for this.
14:40:28 <fizzie> On Windows people usually imported by ordinal, I believe.
14:41:11 <fizzie> I've (re)implemented the hash-import trick for fun one evening -- http://zem.fi/hashlink -- might not be the most optimilized one out there, but at least it's documented.
14:43:33 <Jafet> You just need to add a binfmt handler for compressed programs.
14:44:45 <fizzie> There were also a couple of JavaScript 1k's; there's a long-running web competition (js1k.com) for those.
14:44:46 <Lumpio-> haha so you've done proper 4k stuff huh
14:45:03 <Lumpio-> Jafet: If you were allowed to do that you might as well add a binfmt handler for your entire demo ;P
14:45:20 <fizzie> binfmt handler that runs your demo for all zero-byte files.
14:45:27 <fizzie> Then you can have your 0k intro.
14:45:36 <Fiora> or make an intro that like, wgets your actual intro
14:45:47 <Jafet> The intro to your intro
14:45:56 <Fiora> ooh, even better, um
14:45:57 <Fiora> http://cs.fit.edu/~mmahoney/compression/barf.html
14:46:04 <Jafet> You can also make it display some nice graphics while it downloads your intro.
14:46:10 <Fiora> (summary: it compresses any file to zero bytes, losslessly, by adding the last byte to its file extension)
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14:47:18 <fizzie> Fiora: IIRC, people have used the "data in file name" trick.
14:47:53 <fizzie> The compo machines generally aren't connected to the Interwebs to discourage the former.
14:48:03 <Fiora> erm, the former, that is
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14:48:45 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/1993/lmfjyh.c
14:50:02 <Fiora> gosh how does that even work
14:50:10 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/1993/Makefile
14:50:35 <Fiora> oh geez, so it's basically hiding the program in the makefile?
14:51:10 <Jafet> ${CC} ${CFLAGS} \"\;main\(\)\{puts\(\"Hello\ World!\"\)\;\}char\*C=\".c
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14:52:40 <Jafet> That reminds me, case __LINE__: http://www.ioccc.org/1998/schweikh1.c
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14:53:39 <fizzie> Fiora: From what I recall, there also have been (multiuser) systems where quotas are computed based on just sum of sizes of files, that people have circumvented by mechanisms that store their data in names of dummy files.
14:54:06 <Fiora> that's incredibly terribly evilly amazing.
14:58:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: 'sed 1d' is shorter than 'tail -n+2'
14:59:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: You're not doing the Assembly thing?
14:59:24 <fizzie> That's no reason to not start now.
14:59:32 <Deewiant> It wasn't a reason, it was an aside.
14:59:42 <fizzie> Although admittedly it's kind of a silly place.
15:00:03 <fizzie> Good place if you like delays in schedules, though.
15:00:20 <fizzie> (The short film competition was supposed to start half an hour ago.)
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15:49:32 <fizzie> Welp, that was a long too.
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16:41:55 <Taneb> Today's Irregular Webcomic annoys me because Cartesian coordinates are already named for Descartes I think
16:43:42 <Bike> so it says in the annotation.
16:51:39 <Taneb> How normal a name is "Kimi Räikkönen" in Finland?
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17:09:27 <Deewiant> Taneb: There have been 1305–1379 Kimis and 1948 Räikkönens in the last century or so.
17:09:54 <Taneb> So probably more common than Nathan van Doorn is in the UK
17:10:42 <fizzie> There was a TI-89 in the Wild.
17:11:00 <fizzie> I don't count it as a "real TI" because it has a 68k and not a Z80, though.
17:11:54 <fizzie> Also one RPi, one ZedBoard, one NDS, a couple of Androids and web browsers, and a few funky display devices (a 20x4 character LCD and an old metro station display).
17:17:41 <fizzie> Sure; so none of them are "real".
17:18:25 <fizzie> The other 8x models have a Z80 and therefore are.
17:18:31 <fizzie> (It's a pretty arbitrary distinction.)
17:18:52 <quintopia> i always had a fondness for the 89/92
17:19:12 <fizzie> I'd think they're cool if I had had one at school, probably; but TI-86 was the most "advanced" calculator you could have with you in exams.
17:19:42 <fizzie> 89/92 can (IIRC) do some symbolic stuff and was therefore a no-go.
17:23:50 <zzo38> I have a TI-92 calculator.
17:24:21 <zzo38> For exams it isn't allowed, not only because of the symbolic stuff but also because of the QWERTY keyboard.
17:24:40 <quintopia> yeah, my school system wasn't exactly that smart
17:24:51 <quintopia> they even allowed 89s for use on the SAT back then
17:25:18 <quintopia> my calc teacher made me wipe the memory before the final...which doesn't delete the archived items
17:25:28 <quintopia> so i just archived everything i wanted to keep
17:26:23 <zzo38> I remember they didn't require to wipe the memory of whatever calculator is used, as long as you didn't access any of the stuff you programmed into it before the exam.
17:27:34 <zzo38> They provided TI-83 to borrow.
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17:28:12 <quintopia> i wrote a program for the 89 that would row-reduce a matrix, showing the operation performed at every step and the result of that operation. It was more fun to write than to do a bunch of row reduction homework assignments by hand, and once I had, I could just copy down the words that it spit out without having to do any math
17:29:09 <zzo38> Well, if you wrote the program, including displaying the steps, then certainly you would know how it works.
17:29:46 <quintopia> yeah row-reducing by hand is about the most pointless assignment ever
17:30:12 <quintopia> would be better to just say "here's a matrix that's being reduced. what row operation should you do next?"
17:30:25 <quintopia> if you can answer that question consistently, you understand the process
17:30:53 <zzo38> If I was the teacher I would accept that although if it is done during an exam you would have to write the program during the exam instead of before (you could borrow a calculator without anything programmed into it for the exam).
17:32:10 <quintopia> yeah the program takes longer to write than just solving one problem
17:32:20 <quintopia> but it's a stupid problem to give anyway is the point
17:32:26 <zzo38> quintopia: For many mathematical stuff there is more than one way to arrive at the answer, though.
17:33:01 <quintopia> but in high school math, they usually want you to "write it out"
17:33:28 <quintopia> so that if you get the right answer the wrong way, they can still criticize
17:33:48 <zzo38> Yes, although there still might be more than one possible way to figure out. Of course a wrong way is wrong, but there can be more than one right way.
17:34:33 <quintopia> that's usually only a problem if you are better at math than your math teacher
17:35:14 <zzo38> And it does happen.
17:35:43 <zzo38> Although often the teacher understands that it is correct even if not necessarily the way taught.
17:35:52 <quintopia> for some reason, the very best mathematicians don't tend to become high school teachers
17:35:53 <zzo38> But also often this doesn't happen.
17:36:11 <zzo38> (In my experience, anyways, it works this way.)
17:36:56 <quintopia> do you have any ideas for improving math instruction for young people mr. zzo?
17:38:47 <zzo38> Well, if a teacher sees something they didn't know on the paper, they should check if it is correct rather than to just assume it is wrong without checking. Other than that I don't have another suggestion at this time, although perhaps if they can teach that a student can understand why these steps are correct, would also help to understand mathematics (for both the teacher and students).
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17:58:40 <fizzie> Welp. The 4k's were all very nice (esp. the HBC entry), but somehow I feel I've been more amazed before.
17:58:52 <fizzie> Possibly it's just familiarity with what can be done these days.
17:59:33 <coppro> fizzie: which contest?
17:59:48 <fizzie> coppro: Assembly 2013 4k.
18:00:00 <Lumpio-> I think I liked the last one the most.
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18:00:15 <fizzie> Lumpio-: So did everyone else. That's why they showed it the last. :p
18:00:36 <Lumpio-> Because of the cool plant like thing
18:01:17 <fizzie> Tip for getting applause in a 4k: do something that looks like some sort of a real-world thing, instead of just abstract spikeballs.
18:01:34 <fizzie> (E.g. the room in that one thing, the plant, the highways in HBC's thing.)
18:03:42 <fizzie> And the city in that rain thing.
18:05:16 <fizzie> I think I should download some android thing this tablet can run so that I can show it if I need to explain anyone what the whole demoscene thing is about.
18:07:15 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:08:24 <fizzie> Bike: What do you know about light-Bikes?
18:08:55 <Bike> mostly that i'm not very good at gltron
18:09:24 <fizzie> We used to play some lightbike thing at the school classroom.
18:09:27 <fizzie> I think it ran over IPX.
18:10:38 <elliott> armagetron advanced is a hard game imo
18:11:02 <Deewiant> Since when is it called advanced
18:11:18 <elliott> since the original one stopped being maintained a billion years ago I think
18:11:18 <fizzie> I don't quite understand why this wifi is completely terrible when trying to web-browse, but the SSH works fine.
18:11:21 <elliott> p.s. I haven't played in years
18:11:37 <fizzie> Maybe there's some transparent proxy at work.
18:11:45 <Deewiant> Well I last played before finding out that it's called advanced nowadays
18:14:03 <zzo38> I quit "Yog-Sothoth" permanently because of the very buggy system and that they won't even take any of my suggestions seriously (for additional societies, commands, gods, etc) you can't even AFK while sleeping and there is no permadeath. (One person did take my suggestions seriously but they aren't an administrator so they can't do anything)
18:14:49 <fizzie> zzo38: This "Yog-Sothoth" was a different th[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~ing, though.
18:15:03 <elliott> a different th[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~ing
18:15:21 <fizzie> I was trying to scroll around at the same time.
18:15:23 <Deewiant> a different th?6~?6~?6~?6~?6~ing
18:15:38 <fizzie> And what. Browsing doesn't work on 3G either, while SSH does.
18:15:39 <zzo38> fizzie: Ah. Well, that one I cannot quit because I never used it, but yes you put escape codes in there??? You shouldn't do that?
18:15:47 <fizzie> Maybe the Chrome has broken somehow.
18:15:50 <fizzie> zzo38: It wasn't on purpose.
18:15:58 <Bike> i think yog sothoth engenders escape characters
18:16:19 <zzo38> (O, and they never told me the proper character encoding either)
18:16:47 <fizzie> I closed all tabs and now it works. Bizarre.
18:17:44 <zzo38> Do you know a game "Solter Solitaire"? This is a card game with forty cards, that at first I programmed it in TI-92 calculator, and then I made it in other systems as well and also with the actual cards. Now I am making it in Z-machine, one reason for this is so that I can make sure the "Frolg" assembler is OK.
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18:18:58 <fizzie> I don't know that game.
18:20:05 <zzo38> The rules are you have cards four of each 0 to 9 (suits are irrelevant). Deal into four rows. You can move the end card of a row to another row, to the free pile, or to the single foundation.
18:21:10 <zzo38> Foundation go up 0 to 9 wrapping and starting at whatever number you want. When moving to another row, you cannot move to empty rows, and must move to the number one up or one down (no wrapping) (for example, 5 goes on 6 or 4, 9 goes on 8). You can move to free pile regardless of sequence as long as you don't put more than four cards there in total.
18:21:22 <zzo38> Cards from free pile can go only in foundation.
18:22:36 <zzo38> Every card moved to foundation is worth 1 point, emptying a row is worth 2 points, and completing the game is worth an additional 2 points.
18:24:33 <quintopia> zzo38: do you like card collection games
18:24:55 <zzo38> quintopia: That isn't something I am familiar with.
18:28:10 <quintopia> zzo38: you can get this game you might like. https://www.thegamecrafter.com/designers/giant-robots
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19:35:28 -!- kmc has set topic: A different th[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~ing | 22nd IOCCC is open: http://ioccc.org/2013/rules.txt | jsvine is doing an esolang survey! https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OvEsdBioOFcXFAiscO34kctUWKs3dWQs5-ZouXdwy9Q/viewform | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
19:35:58 <kmc> ^[[A^[[A^[[B^[[B^[[D^[[C^[[D^[[C
19:39:27 <shachaf> My ^[[C key is broken. :-(
19:40:28 <zzo38> You should replace the keyboard then.
19:40:56 <oerjan> kmc: is that topic supposed to contain actual control characters?
19:41:11 <oerjan> (because it doesn't seem to do so here)
19:41:20 <zzo38> It also doesn't seem to have here either.
19:41:43 <kmc> "The first Michell/Kingsbury fluid bearing in the USA was installed in the Holtwood Hydroelectric Power Plant... in 1912. The 2.25-tonne bearing supports a water turbine and electric generator with a rotating mass of about 165 tonnes and water turbine pressure adding another 40 tonnes.
19:41:48 <kmc> The bearing has been in nearly continuous service since 1912, with no parts replaced... As of 2002, the manufacturer estimated the bearings at Holtwood should have a maintenance-free life of about 1,300 years."
19:42:17 <shachaf> I suspect kmc just copied what his terminal showed for what fizzie said.
19:42:49 <shachaf> (fizzie's original had some \e characters but none of the others do)
19:43:12 <shachaf> Can the topic even contain control characters?
19:43:54 <shachaf> <fizzie> zzo38: This "Yog-Sothoth" was a different thESC[6~ESC[6~ESC[6~ESC[6~ESC[6~ing, though.
19:50:04 <monotone> IRC is wildly apathetic about what goes in messages, so long as there aren't any null bytes.
19:50:08 <oerjan> <Taneb> Today's Irregular Webcomic annoys me because Cartesian coordinates are already named for Descartes I think <-- yeah me too
19:50:37 <zzo38> Carriage return and line feeds aren't allowed either. Also, bells aren't allowed in channel names.
19:51:08 <oerjan> monotone: freenode censors some characters, however
19:51:53 <monotone> Yeah, I don't imagine people would take kindly to any use of BEL.
19:53:05 <fungot> <CTCP>.. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
19:54:09 <fungot> .. !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ...
19:54:18 <monotone> It's like the cries of a dying deer in the forest.
20:28:52 <fizzie> fungot: Stop with the CTCPs.
20:28:52 <fungot> fizzie: can you link me with your anti-bush fnord blasphemy.
20:31:28 <fungot> shachaf: i read your " implementing doom" as " ex" troglodyte. or
20:31:39 <fungot> shachaf: so am i. luckily i already knew that... but i had to change and update the web
20:31:58 <olsner> fungot: you're a troglodyte?
20:31:59 <fungot> olsner: spróbuj mówiæ po polsku
20:32:24 <fizzie> A web-updating troglodyte.
20:33:13 <olsner> fungot: jesteś troglodyta?
20:33:13 <fungot> olsner: oh yea, no-brainer, if the implementation adheres to r5rs, they aren't!
20:34:54 <fizzie> oerjan: I think you forgot the word "like" there hth
20:35:31 <oerjan> hint: æ isn't a polish letter
20:38:16 <oerjan> "It is the fifth letter of the Polish, Sorbian, and Gaj's Latin alphabet of Serbo-Croatian (Standard Croatian, Standard Bosnian, and, when written the Latin script, Standard Serbian and Standard Montenegrin).[1] It is fourth in the Belarusian Łacinka alphabet."
20:41:59 <oerjan> mówić is the infinitive of an imperfective verb meaning "say, tell, speak, talk"
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20:43:16 <oerjan> spróbuj means "try", imperative singular
20:45:28 <fizzie> Hmp: the people_presence dragging works just fine in desktop-Chrome's "emulate touch events" mode.
20:45:29 <oerjan> also, arabic has no letter p fwiw
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21:09:20 <Sgeo> Gah the writing in this fanfic is horrific, but it has good reviews that sort of give the bad writing a pass
21:09:52 <Sgeo> It's interesting if I can ignore the stilted dialog
21:10:02 <zzo38> What fanfic is that? What kind of writing do they make in it (example)?
21:10:17 <Sgeo> "Just by being in authority, you get to question me anytime you want. If on any occasion, I am wrong then there are huge penalties to pay. Yet, if you are wrong, then there are absolutely no consequences."
21:10:33 <Sgeo> Harry's Game, a fanfic of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, itself a fanfic
21:11:25 <Sgeo> It makes me want to gorge my eyes out, but only because of the mannerisms, not the content
21:11:35 <Sgeo> McGonagall's wrinkles ceased compressing further. Harry knew that he had succeeded in convincing her.
21:11:38 <kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:13:10 <elliott> `addquote <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:13:16 <HackEgo> 1082) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:13:37 <zzo38> Is the quote file supposed to have a plus sign before their name?
21:14:16 <zzo38> But is the quote file supposed to have plus sign if they have voice?
21:14:31 <mnoqy> it can if you want
21:14:38 <Sgeo> I feel like I want to talk about how much work is going to suck, but shouldn't do it publically
21:15:00 <mnoqy> you feel like you want to?
21:15:03 <mnoqy> are you sure about that
21:15:19 <mnoqy> maybe you just think you feel you want to
21:15:40 <mnoqy> or you're pretending to think you feel you want to but really you dread the idea
21:15:43 <fizzie> Fiora: Assembly link of the day: http://sprunge.us/QIAA
21:16:12 <fizzie> Fiora: (From a long long blog post that -- as far as I can tell -- doesn't have linkable anchors for sections. Original source: http://randomascii.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/floating-point-determinism/ )
21:16:29 <elliott> fizzie: oh, assembly, not Assembly
21:16:56 <kmc> `quote '\+kmc'
21:17:01 <elliott> can I have an Assembly link of the day?
21:17:01 <kmc> `quote '+kmc'
21:17:09 <HackEgo> 1052) <+kmc> we are amused <+kmc> the royal +v \ 1082) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living
21:17:20 <kmc> oh right when it's not `run then it's a single argument
21:17:30 <elliott> otherwise addquote would be annoying
21:17:33 <kmc> anyway I think you should leave the + iff it's part of the joke, as in 1052
21:17:37 <kmc> but i don't care
21:17:41 <Sgeo> One of the reviews: "This story is amazing. Even though you are not as good a writer as Eliezer Yudkowsky, especially when it comes to writing other people's characters, you have done what I would have believed impossible: you have shown an interesting Quidditch game, which I previously thought was an oxymoron."
21:17:54 <elliott> I think kmc's + taints everything he says
21:17:57 <fizzie> elliott: Uh... I'd link to some entry I liked, but I don't think they've made to scene.org yet.
21:18:02 <elliott> it is integral to the experience of his lines in my mind
21:18:08 <kmc> it is my taint bit
21:18:16 <elliott> quite possibly a joke completely unrelated to voice is only made funny by its presence
21:18:33 <kmc> itt perl -T
21:18:34 <fizzie> elliott: Except for the gamedev entries. Well, uh... there's an "Assembly simulator" there, you can use it to pretend-visit. (Except it seemed kind of terrible.)
21:18:35 <elliott> "Even though you are not as good a writer as Eliezer Yudkowsky" rare phrases
21:18:57 <Sgeo> Are you saying Eliezer is a bad writer?
21:18:58 <mnoqy> Sgeo: why are you reading this
21:19:00 <kmc> unsafe { fuck tha police }
21:19:12 <Sgeo> Because of that review and because it was mentioned in a Reddit thread
21:19:14 <elliott> kmc..... use protection..........
21:20:15 <mnoqy> Sgeo: why are you reading that review. why are you reading reddit.
21:20:46 <pikhq> Sgeo: Eli honestly is a pretty bad writer.
21:21:09 <Sgeo> o.O? HPMOR is awesome, how is it badly written?
21:21:12 <mnoqy> even pikhq can't defend it
21:22:01 <pikhq> Dude, the main character in HPMOR is practically a Mary Sue.
21:22:08 <pikhq> Better than the typical Mary Sue, but still.
21:22:56 <Sgeo> He's a Mary Sue except when he fails hard
21:23:35 <pikhq> Having a Mary Sue get hoisted by his own petard does not a good character make.
21:29:25 <Sgeo> Adults eat Lucky Charms and Macarroni and Cheese, right?
21:29:59 <Sgeo> (Ok, so googling reveals that GM has an ad campaign directed to nostalgic adults but adults were eating them anyway)
21:30:10 <Sgeo> But... I don't have Lucky Charm related nostaligia at all
21:30:16 <Sgeo> I just like marshmallows
21:31:44 <mnoqy> what sort of maccaroni are we talking here
21:32:25 <olsner> is lucky charm a brand of marshmallows?
21:32:58 <mnoqy> it's cereal marshmallows
21:32:59 <Sgeo> olsner: it's a brand of cereal that has marshmallows in it
21:33:09 <mnoqy> idg how people like cereal marshmallows or sugary cereals or
21:33:22 <olsner> Sgeo: ah, I don't think adults are supposed to eat that
21:33:30 <Sgeo> http://gawker.com/5964591/as-if-adults-havent-been-eating-lucky-charms-this-whole-time
21:33:39 <Sgeo> Sorry for Gawker link
21:34:34 <shachaf> mnoqy: do you know about kan extensions and kan lifts
21:34:53 <mnoqy> i never got around to learning that stuff
21:35:06 <shachaf> Fixing this involves *nested* CPR analysis, which I am working on at the moment.
21:35:20 <olsner> `quote kha+n extension
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21:35:34 <shachaf> that was an spj quote btw, not me
21:35:53 <olsner> `quote kaa+n extension
21:36:07 <Sgeo> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0015.html
21:36:21 <shachaf> mnoqy: imo learn kan extensions
21:36:33 <mnoqy> they probably are huh
21:43:20 <Sgeo> Analysing the best way to keep a dead person's blood flowing so their brain can continue to receive oxygen until professional help can arrive
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21:44:55 <lambdabot> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/simonpj/Papers/cpr/index.htm
21:45:08 <Sgeo> o.O Adam Lee (who is made of pure awesome) likes xkcd
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21:46:50 <mnoqy> and why do you care
21:47:28 <shachaf> mnoqy: should've started with the fourth question
21:48:44 <shachaf> mnoqy: are you ``made of pure awesome''?
21:49:02 <Sgeo> Adam Lee is this guy http://ebonmusings.org/atheism
21:49:39 <mnoqy> i dont think i want to click
21:51:30 <shachaf> mnoqy: but don't you like ironclad logic
21:54:17 <shachaf> the joke is http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/essays/all-possible-worlds/#part2
21:56:20 <shachaf> if god is real why are there atheists
21:57:44 <zzo38> Do you know "ignostic"?
21:57:53 <zzo38> Does that answer the question for you with another question?
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22:24:33 <FreeFull> 1382934587194025722583321808878440049785645138984926013
22:31:28 <quintopia> the famous dilemma is this: if god is omnibenevolent, why did he subject us to shachaf?
22:32:09 <shachaf> if god is omnomnevolent, why am i hungry
22:32:34 <zzo38> What makes you think you know everything about God and omnibenevolence?
22:33:49 <shachaf> zzo38: you should start a cult
22:33:59 <zzo38> shachaf: That depends. Is "zzo38ist" a word?
22:34:49 <zzo38> I don't want to start a cult. A proper religion should not be a "cult", but I can certainly write my opinions about religious stuff, and you are free to take it for what you want.
22:35:50 <Sgeo> zzo38 is too lenient about what others think to be a cult leader
22:37:34 <zzo38> There are many religious texts, with contain some good things, but you should not take them on blind faith, whether I told you to or not.
22:58:15 <Sgeo> Should we take on blind faith that we shouldn't take religious texts on blind faith even if you tell us?
22:58:57 <zzo38> That is for you to figure out.
23:03:54 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:08:42 <mnoqy> hey Sgeo could you explain `slist for a friend of mine? i don't think i'd be able to do it justice
23:09:12 <Sgeo> It's a list of people who want to be notified when Homestuck updates.
23:09:34 <Sgeo> If a Homestuck fan notices an update, they can ping the other Homestuck fans that way
23:09:55 <Sgeo> Also, several of the people are the same people and I think one doesn't even exist
23:14:27 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
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23:27:30 <olsner> 93% of ASCII is still not mapped to any bot
23:28:35 <fizzie> (aka ^C) - the best prefix.
23:28:39 <zzo38> olsner: It isn't necessary for all of them to have a single ASCII character prefix really; some may accept commands only in private, some may require their name and a colon and space to send a command in public, some may not accept commands at all, etc.
23:32:17 <zzo38> (And in a few cases it does not necessarily have to be unique.)
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