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01:49:25 <Sgeo> How can I run Java 6 safely?
01:53:20 <Bike> douse your computer in formaldehyde and intone SAG BA, SAG BA
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02:04:32 <zzo38> Do you have any binaries of Infocom's Z-machine interpreters for version 5 games (Beyond Zork, Zork I SG, and some others)?
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02:06:29 <HackEgo> scorpo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:52:09 <zzo38> I found the interpreter.
02:52:39 <zzo38> I already have the source-codes for the interpreters, so I know that there is a "/g" command-line option to override the name of the story file.
02:58:52 <zzo38> I have found out that it does not work if you put a space after "/g"; you have to put it directly after without the space, as in "bzork /gstory.z5"
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03:13:44 <tswett> So it's just like GCC.
03:18:37 <zzo38> O, is that how it works?
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04:18:13 <zzo38> I found a list of made up Nethack conduct in ifMUD. Here is some: * No diagonal moves. * Never killed non-uniques. * You never examined your inventory. * You only fought by throwing food. * No destruction of boulders, walls, and statues. * Never pick up precious metals/gems items. * Never drop or throw any item. * Never kill more than one of any kind of creature.
04:19:08 <zzo38> Or there is one "Shakespeare challenge": Kill monsters only in the order to make up the text of Hamlet (case-insensitive; non-letters ignored).
04:19:34 <Bike> has anyone done that
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04:20:28 <quintopia> is there a monster for every letter?
04:20:39 <zzo38> In Nethack, I think there is.
04:27:54 <coppro> there are lower case "i"s, though
04:27:55 <Bike> you don't need every case, tho
04:28:07 <coppro> "I" is pretty common in written texts, it turns out
04:28:13 <zzo38> I have said case-insensitive for these reason.
04:28:29 <coppro> also, there's a problem: your first kill needs to be a w. good luck
04:29:46 <shachaf> purple worm is also p. ouch imo
04:29:55 <shachaf> Anyway, you can win without killing a single monster.
04:30:01 <shachaf> So I'm sure this is doable.
04:30:34 <zzo38> Can you win if your companions also never kill anyone? (This also means you have to somehow stop them without killing them)
04:30:35 <coppro> if you're allowing pets, etc. then sure
04:31:05 <coppro> zzo38: possibly, theoretically. in practice not a chance
04:31:11 <coppro> (then again, prove me wrong)
04:31:28 <Bike> don't you have to kill rodney or something
04:31:31 <zzo38> Or if, you and your companions never kill any non-uniques; killing uniques is considered OK. Is this easier?
04:31:45 <coppro> extinction is a huge problem
04:32:00 <coppro> Bike: you can polyself into a nymph and steal
04:32:01 <elliott> Bike: you can get items you need by stealing them e.g. as a succubus
04:32:29 <Bike> i've only ever gotten up to like dlevel 14 V_V
04:32:50 <elliott> in AceHack I once stole the Candelabrum from Vlad as a succubus and then beat him to death with it, that was pretty good
04:33:00 <elliott> btw NetHack is bad & don't play it
04:33:00 <CADD> Bike: well thats better than me, ive never played nethack
04:33:11 <shachaf> don't you think a candelabrum is overkill for vlad
04:33:13 <coppro> the #1 way to get monsters of a specific kind doesn't work if they're extinct, so you will find trying to kill millions of monsters in a specific order to be rather painful
04:33:18 <Bike> what if i don't play you, elliott
04:33:19 <coppro> shachaf: yeah that's almost a real weapon
04:33:34 <elliott> shachaf: well, I had like 30 HP.
04:33:39 <elliott> due to the succubus selfpoly.
04:33:48 <elliott> I had to cast healing like twenty times to not die to him.
04:34:09 <coppro> elliott: don't you just die as a succubus and revert to full health?
04:34:21 <coppro> I think my favourite vladbane is a wand of wishing
04:34:43 <coppro> you can use it to access just about any weapon, spell, or even combination of them that you could possibly want
04:34:55 <coppro> so logically the correct way to employ this tool is to whack vlad with it
04:35:06 <zzo38> coppro: Is it possible if you modify the game so there is no extinction (and instead makes it like ADOM where newly generated creature of the same kind has more levels, but your experience points are the same either way)?
04:35:20 <shachaf> What if wishing is silver?
04:35:21 <coppro> zzo38: you could even modify the game so that you were playing chessrogue instead
04:35:27 <shachaf> Wait, does silver even do anything to vampires?
04:35:38 <shachaf> What if wishing is wood and you whack Vlad's heart with it?
04:35:49 <coppro> shachaf: if silver, it's complete overkill
04:36:17 <Bike> so how do you peeps like
04:36:20 <Bike> play this stuff
04:36:45 <shachaf> Bike: You should play NetHack even though it's kind of awful.
04:36:51 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, I suppose you could, but then you should play chessrogue instead. I mean variants of Nethack.
04:36:58 <Bike> like how do you get to the point of actually succeeding.
04:36:59 <elliott> what you do is stop playing and then reminisce about it instead, which ismuch more enjoyable
04:37:06 <CADD> dwarf fortress? another game i have never played..
04:37:21 <coppro> I strongly recommend NH4 instead
04:37:30 <zzo38> Do plutonium wands give you radiation poisoning in this game?
04:37:31 <coppro> and then report bugs and stuff
04:37:33 <Bike> i have like two hundred dead scores before level 15, elliott
04:37:39 <elliott> it's much more about memorising tricks than any kind of strategic or tactical skill
04:37:47 <Bike> ok i was afraid of that.
04:37:56 <Bike> are other roguesss better about that
04:38:05 <shachaf> all computer games are bad
04:38:15 <Bike> because the only other one i've played is, uh, i think Chocobo's Dungeon
04:38:16 <zzo38> shachaf: No, there are a few good ones.
04:38:23 <elliott> Bike: yes, quite significantly; I recommend brogue
04:38:36 <Bike> which i mean was fun, but also chocobo.
04:38:37 <coppro> Bike: although nethack is particularly bad
04:38:39 <CADD> shachaf: couldnt agree more.
04:38:41 <elliott> sil is also good though I haven't played it as much as I should and crawl is also okay and very popular though imperfect and getting worse
04:39:05 <coppro> Bike: part of the problem is that it has now been two decades since the last nethack release
04:39:09 <coppro> so the game is solved through and through
04:39:22 <Bike> yeah ok i know how creepy nethack people are, e.g. the above conversation
04:39:42 <elliott> Bike: but brogue is pretty good in that it is both accessible and also balanced enough to be interesting.
04:39:49 <coppro> NH4 is the most mature project to fix that but it's very far off
04:39:58 <elliott> and also games don't take five years
04:39:58 <CADD> Bike: come play with my +69 staff of penetration..
04:40:05 <quintopia> shachaf: i greatly enjoy a large number of computer games. can they be bad and enjoyable also?
04:40:10 <Bike> well i'll look at brogue i guess.
04:40:23 <Bike> god knows something less pointless than nethack would be nice to play
04:40:32 <Bike> on my shitty-ass computer that can't handle textmode games
04:40:37 <CADD> Bike: dwarf fortress?
04:40:47 <Bike> not really text mode
04:40:54 <CADD> i thought it was?
04:40:54 <coppro> the biggest flaw in NH design is that it both assumes you have no spoilers in a lot of places while also making spoilers /nearly/ mandatory elsewhere
04:40:55 <Bike> also i'd just like, kill everybody.
04:41:01 <CADD> well, im not a gamer so idk..
04:41:01 <Bike> i think it uses opengl or something actually
04:41:09 <Bike> certainly not a terminal in any case
04:41:14 <elliott> you can run dwarf fortress in a terminal!
04:41:20 <coppro> unspoiled ascensions have been heard of, but I wouldn't want to do on
04:41:22 <CADD> i think its text based, but then they added sprite packs to make it easier to play
04:41:23 <elliott> though there's usually not much point
04:41:25 <zzo38> Did you try any of the computer games I made? Some may be good (others may be not as good as the others).
04:41:26 <Bike> is it like so- right.
04:41:32 <elliott> I mean it's exactly the same.
04:41:39 <elliott> but why would you bother, usually
04:41:41 <CADD> zzo38: id like too see
04:41:58 <Bike> the other obstacle to DF is that i have no idea how to get anywhere near starting
04:42:05 <CADD> zzo38: lol, i was actually taking a look at your page on esoteric.org. wow you wrote alot of languages
04:42:11 <elliott> the DF wiki has a nice guide
04:42:12 <Bike> i think last time i tried playing it stayed in worldgen for like three hours
04:42:13 <CADD> zzo38: and a lot of them are very interesting
04:42:17 <Bike> and i got bored
04:42:18 <elliott> it's not really a roguelike though...
04:42:27 <elliott> well, it has a roguelike (adventure mode) but it's no fun to play
04:42:30 <Bike> more of a killdorfslike, i'm given to understand
04:42:38 <zzo38> CADD: Yes, you can write also a comment on there, and/or other comment on here, whatever
04:42:40 <elliott> though everyone should see its combat menus at least once
04:42:56 <Bike> i kind of like just reading about df which is a problem
04:43:09 <Bike> i like the stories about dorfs carving pictures of burning elephants all over everything
04:43:09 <zzo38> CADD: If you want to try my game, what kind of computer/operating-systems do you have or can emulator?
04:43:14 <Bike> very "postmodernist"
04:43:44 <shachaf> Is it Potion of Confusing?
04:44:13 <zzo38> CADD: Do you have any programs to emulate any other kinds of computers/operating systems?
04:44:17 <CADD> zzo38: hmm, i just took a look again. i was most enamoured by twoducks and 2d-reverse.
04:44:20 <CADD> zzo38: yeah vbox
04:45:05 <CADD> zzo38: i kind of have a thing for multi-D langs.
04:45:31 <CADD> zzo38: but twoducks is just super cool
04:47:39 <zzo38> CADD: You can try http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/cgacoll2.zip, cgacoll1.zip, cgacoll.zip, and 100level.zip, which are DOS; xnazzyball.zip, which is Windows; /zmachine/examples/solter.zip, which is Z-machine (an interpreter is at /zmachine/aimfiz.zip and should run on any computer with SDL); and /mzx1/potionconf/potion_of_confusing.zip which is a MegaZeux file.
04:48:12 <CADD> zzo38: great, thanks!
04:49:23 <zzo38> Depending on the Linux distribution, you may find MegaZeux in its package manager. You may also find a Z-machine interpreter, although most of them are buggy so try Aimfiz instead which I believe is far more accurate than other Z-machine interpreters (even Infocom's interpreters have bugs in them).
04:50:04 <CADD> k, installing megazeux
04:51:49 <zzo38> Also try /nes_program/hangman.zip for Famicom Hangman (you will need a NES/Famicom emulator); it is incomplete and not particularly good although it does have a time limit and a few other things.
04:53:01 <zzo38> After installing MegaZeux, depending on the package, you might get a screen that says "Software Visions". If you do, you will need to push F3 and select the "Potion of Confusing" world file instead.
04:55:05 <zzo38> (You might not get that screen, though, depending on the package.)
04:56:59 <CADD> hmm, seems like all the packages are stale
04:57:45 <zzo38> CADD: That might be OK; the game might still work.
04:59:14 <CADD> nope. seems not.. hmm
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05:00:22 <zzo38> Do you get an error message about the version? If not, then there is a different problem. You can ignore it for now and try a different game, if you prefer. (You can also try not using the package manager, and instead downloading MegaZeux from somewhere else.)
05:00:28 <CADD> zzo38: do you think dosbox would do the trick?
05:00:40 <CADD> zzo38: no, there is a compilation error
05:00:47 <zzo38> CADD: For running DOS programs, DOSBox would probably work.
05:00:56 <CADD> zzo38: yeah, im getting a copy off the internet
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05:13:28 <zzo38> Which of these games are working for you now?
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05:23:13 <zzo38> Please tell me if you tried the other games.
05:25:02 <kmc> zzo38: your D&D game should have monsters called ghostly sentinels
05:25:06 <kmc> http://llvm.org/docs/ProgrammersManual.html#dss-ilist-sentinel
05:25:29 <zzo38> kmc: Well, it doesn't, but thanks for telling me anyways.
05:25:48 <zzo38> My D&D game contains what I have recorded.
05:26:38 <coppro> observation: playing intense piano actually causes the heat generation in my wrists to become noticeable to the touch
05:27:19 <zzo38> coppro: What music did you play?
05:27:33 <zzo38> Is it electric or acoustic piano?
05:27:40 <coppro> zzo38: the invincibility music from mario at full speed, the right hand specifically
05:28:00 <zzo38> Did you play blindfolded with a thick blanket over the keys and your hands upsidedown?
05:28:03 <coppro> a digital piano, which has keys weighted to feel like an acoustic
05:28:48 <zzo38> I can't do that either, but apparently some people can.
05:29:36 <coppro> after doing this for a bit, which is really a literal muscle exercise rather than teaching any particular skills, my right wrist was noticeably warmer than my left
05:29:49 <zzo38> Did you play the piano with both hands?
05:30:06 <coppro> no, I was only doing the right
05:30:11 <coppro> (the left hand is boring anyway)
05:30:34 <zzo38> Well, that's why it is more noticeably warmer than your left.
05:31:17 <coppro> yes, of course. I know why. I was just surprised as to the fact that it was noticeable
05:34:36 <zzo38> Do you play the music with the book or just by your mind? I always use the book or paper, even the music I write by myself, I will write it on a paper.
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05:34:58 <zzo38> Do you know some things about music theory?
05:35:55 <zzo38> Do you ever make up your own music?
05:36:54 <zzo38> I made up symbols for cadences rather than writing out the entire words "perfect semi-closed" and so on.
05:37:38 <zzo38> I showed the teacher and she liked it too, although it isn't standard (I suggested telling the Royal Conservatory, but I don't know how well such thing would work anyways).
05:38:16 <coppro> It doesn't seem like a particularly useful notation
05:38:55 <coppro> a cadence is a sequence of chords, and we already have multiple notations for chords that are perfectly good at expressing cadences as well
05:39:19 <zzo38> Perfect (also called authentic) is "P", imperfect is "P" with a slash through it, plagal is "PL", and deceptive is "D" (there is no confusion with 500 because there is no such chords as 500). Closed is a circle around, semi-closed is a half-circle, and open is the plain letter.
05:39:55 <zzo38> I also used a slightly different notation for chords, because of the difficulty of uppercase/lowercase in hand-written notations. (The teacher liked that too.)
05:41:15 <coppro> the typical way of dealing with that is very straightforward: place serifs on capital Vs
05:41:18 <zzo38> Either the major/minor/augmented/dimished is implied, or if it is not implied, a symbol "+", "-", "x", or "o" is added to superscript. (In a major key it is usually implied.)
05:41:57 <zzo38> coppro: I didn't know that was the typical way.
05:42:14 <coppro> usually a "o" adds diminished, or a "ø" for a half-diminished (iirc) seventh
05:42:45 <coppro> augemented chords are rare enough that I don't recall the notation offhand
05:43:13 <zzo38> Yes, I still used the "o" for diminished. The book I used uses "x" for augmented, and I use this too. (Some people use "+" for augmented, causing confusion.)
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05:51:29 <zzo38> Do you sometimes write any notations for any of these things, or only read?
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06:04:23 <coppro> zzo38: I sometimes write
06:07:41 <CADD> zzo38: its 23:06 here
06:08:21 <zzo38> CADD: Yes, I know now I was trying to see the connection I didn't get an auto reply for a long time
06:08:38 <Bike> "Complete the following steps. 1. If you are using Internet Explorer 6 or 7, upgrade to a newer version of Internet Explorer." thanks, school
06:08:52 <CADD> zzo38: yeah, i accidentally dced.
06:09:22 <CADD> Bike: reminds me of: http://youtu.be/9mXe9nRiPHI
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06:32:45 <Sgeo> shachaf: http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/The_Order_of_the_Stick
06:39:36 <CADD> Sgeo: http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/Haskell
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06:42:09 <kmc> CADD.win++
06:42:21 <kmc> /topic C++ fan club
06:42:52 <Taneb> `slist Jade, Dave, and the Mayor
06:42:54 <HackEgo> slist Jade, Dave, and the Mayor: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:50:30 <Sgeo> Does.... does Pharo seriously monkey-patch nil as part of its eval mechanism?
06:51:09 <Bike> purple monkey dishwasher
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07:26:48 <zzo38> CADD: I have read some stuff in Uncyclopedia before.
07:27:22 <CADD> zzo38: its mildy humorous.
07:27:53 <zzo38> Do you play chess and/or any chess variants?
07:28:10 <CADD> yes, i used to be part of chess club
07:28:21 <CADD> um ive played quite a few chess variants
07:28:35 <zzo38> Have you invented any chess variants?
07:28:38 <CADD> big fan of the 3d chess, im currently undefeated in that variant. lol
07:29:00 <zzo38> I have invented many.
07:29:28 <CADD> http://www.chessvariants.org/
07:29:32 <CADD> big fan of that site
07:29:40 <CADD> im guessing you might have them on there?
07:29:59 <zzo38> And a TeX file for writing chess diagrams and moves including many chess variants too (although it can also be used with FIDE).
07:30:03 <zzo38> Yes I do have them on there.
07:30:27 <CADD> neat, i would love to check them out
07:30:37 <zzo38> CADD: If you select "Advanced Search" from the "Games" menu, that form is also mine.
07:30:59 <Taneb> Didn't someone here write a game that was isomorphic to chess while seeming completely different?
07:31:07 <CADD> hey, i see your UN
07:31:15 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes, I think I did.
07:31:30 <zzo38> Taneb: http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSeeeeeeeeeeeeee
07:32:02 <CADD> i didnt copy it right
07:33:08 <zzo38> Some of these chess variants are partially (or entirely) made up by my brother, although most are mine.
07:33:46 <zzo38> http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MSchesswithcheck is one that myself and my brother both knew the rules to before we discussed them.
07:34:44 <CADD> i was actually just taking a look at that one
07:34:49 <CADD> that a nice and simple variant
07:35:00 <CADD> the rules are almost obvious, lol
07:35:24 <zzo38> I made up 123456 Chess [MS123456chess] due to a chess/checkers/backgammon portable set I got, so I invented a game using its pieces.
07:36:24 <zzo38> Chess with Quantum Bishops [MSchesswithquant] has an unknown inventor; I was told about it by someone else who also doesn't know the inventor.
07:39:16 <zzo38> I have made many others too.
07:42:50 <zzo38> CADD: Which of my computer games are working on your computer now? I also made this http://www.chessvariants.org/index/msdisplay.php?itemid=MLgiveawaychessp
07:43:20 <CADD> zzo38: lol, i got totally distracted by my lisp interpreter im writing.
07:43:35 <CADD> zzo38: can you say vau?
07:44:03 <CADD> zzo38: http://klisp.org/
07:44:07 <CADD> zzo38: based on that
07:44:10 <zzo38> O, you are writing a Lisp interpreter? In what programming language? Will you post it afterward?
07:44:21 <CADD> zzo38: yup, in haskell. sure.
07:44:31 <CADD> zzo38: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/%7Ejshutt/kernel.html
07:44:36 <CADD> that should explain it
07:44:59 <zzo38> O, I can see $vau in the example.
07:45:15 <CADD> mhm. its very cool
07:45:26 <CADD> so what he did was break up lambda into two funtions
07:45:44 <CADD> vau is kind of like a macro, it takes its arguments unevaluates
07:45:51 <CADD> and then wrap evaluates it
07:46:04 <CADD> and you can implement lambda in terms of vau
07:48:16 <kmc> fexpr fan club
07:48:40 <kmc> <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
07:49:16 <CADD> kmc: have you checked out wat.js?
07:49:36 <kmc> what does that have to do with fexprs though
07:49:56 <CADD> wat uses fexprs
07:50:05 <CADD> https://github.com/manuel/wat-js
07:50:49 <CADD> i thought it was a pretty lulzy implementation of a klisp-ish language
08:04:55 <coppro> huh, I have discovered a fact about a tv episode not on imdb
08:05:00 <coppro> I feel like a victory has occurred
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08:50:50 <CADD> kmc: wait http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/ is your blog?
08:50:54 <CADD> kmc: i love your blog!
08:51:14 <CADD> cheeky name too!
08:54:28 <CADD> kmc: (sorry, did a bit of internet stalking. lol)
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09:04:26 <kmc> yes that's me
09:04:30 <kmc> glad you like it
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12:03:33 <olsner> I love how forth lets you write begin/while/until/else/then and begin/while/while/repeat/then loops (and unlimited other combinations of those control words)
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12:05:40 <olsner> after reading http://www.taygeta.com/forth/dpansa3.htm#A.3.2.3.2 I almost understand how it works too
12:07:34 <katla> http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/11/from-monoids-to-monads.html
12:13:09 <katla> > It'd be cool if this was a product in the usual categorical sense, but it isn't.
12:13:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input `if'
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12:25:00 <katla> so you replace product in the definition of monoid with 'very weak thing that's apparently sort of a of product'
12:25:35 <katla> this is more BS than when the introduced imaginary numbers
12:38:05 <CADD> katla: if you like forth, you will probably love factor
12:38:19 <CADD> katla: <3 dataflow combinators <3
12:40:38 <katla> <aristid> S_J: turing completeness relies on general recursion, which cannot be proven to halt (see: halting problem)
12:40:41 <katla> this is a canned response right?
12:40:47 <katla> like he has a command that types it out for him
12:41:17 <Jafet> There is no effective method that can determine whether any IRC message is canned.
12:43:16 <katla> 0 people in #haskell helped me with how does monad relate to monoid but everyone jumps in to help with 'y cant agda turing machine'
12:45:51 <olsner> this suggests that one of those questions is harder to answer than the other one, hth
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14:38:12 <oerjan> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- thor's mother -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(*2))$1
14:38:13 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
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14:49:18 <oerjan> sigfpe's blog still gives me a virus warning, i see
14:52:52 <CADD> oerjan: gotta love windows.. :)
14:54:07 <oerjan> well surely he shouldn't be having viruses on his website hth
14:54:31 <oerjan> (no idea whether the warning is true or not)
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14:56:32 <CADD> yeah most anti-viri are very on the false-positive side
14:56:32 <oerjan> although it's been there for years
14:56:38 <CADD> for a good reason
14:56:53 <CADD> its probably not his site, just your anti-virus
14:57:07 <CADD> sice i love that blog, and i dont think ive ever gotten anything from it
14:57:54 <oerjan> i changed to a new computer recently, although i guess windows defender might descend from mse enough to have the same false hits
14:58:25 <CADD> hmm.. yeah as a linux user i usually use preventative measures like noscript and et. al.
14:58:42 <oerjan> and i don't recall whether i got a virus warning with avg back when i was using that.
14:59:36 <CADD> hmm, i remember avg serving me well when i used to run windows
15:00:04 <CADD> man, i need to go to more sec cons, so i can get more free kaperski licenses.. :)
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15:09:37 <olsner> > fix$(<$>)<$>(:)<*>((<$>((:[{- Jörð -}])<$>))(=<<)<$>(*)<$>(>>=)(+)($))$1 -- updated version, oerjan
15:09:39 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,...
15:10:19 <oerjan> i do recall we discussed who was thor's mother last that came up
15:14:15 <olsner> I think the difference is Jörð and (>>=)(+)($) instead of (*2)
15:28:17 <Vorpal> Hm tup seems broken with distcc:
15:28:18 <Vorpal> distcc[6466] (dcc_get_top_dir) Warning: HOME is not set; can't find distcc directory
15:30:10 <Deewiant> 'export HOME' in your tupfile IIRC, I don't know if you can set it globally
15:30:31 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm bootstrapping tup on my rpi so this is superannoying
15:31:02 <Deewiant> find -name Tupfile -exec sed -i '1i export Home' \; or whatever
15:32:18 <Vorpal> Ah yes with the {} added
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15:33:32 <nooodl> > length<$>(groupBy(/=).fix)show
15:33:41 <nooodl> > take 20 $ length<$>(groupBy(/=).fix)show
15:33:42 <lambdabot> [2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16384,32768,65536,131072,26...
15:42:46 <Vorpal> Deewiant, google is really not helpful at all :/
15:43:06 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Read the tup manpage, it's all there
15:43:18 <Vorpal> Oh, right, why did I check google first
15:43:41 <Deewiant> And post on tup-users if there's no way to configure it globally
15:44:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I suspect HOME has to be set to something on the fuse file system or such maybe
15:44:38 <Vorpal> Since that didn't work
15:45:05 <Deewiant> Well if it still said "HOME is not set" then it just didn't work at all
15:45:38 <Deewiant> It should be able to access files outside its file system though, I think
15:45:58 <Vorpal> How did I do revert in git now again? As in revert a list of file names to a clean state for the working directory
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15:48:53 <Vorpal> Hm okay so now I get this error instead: distcc[7746] (dcc_build_somewhere) Warning: failed to distribute, running locally instead. Weird since I just checked with make in another project and that worked fine
15:49:15 <Deewiant> It's probably missing another environment variable but it's not telling you which one
15:54:18 <Vorpal> Does tup block sockets with some ld preload stuff or something?
15:54:47 <Deewiant> I don't think tup does the ld preload stuff anymore, it replaced it with the fuse system
15:55:25 <Vorpal> I specifically get "gcc: error: whatever.c: operation not permitted" for all whatever.c as far as I can tell
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16:10:16 <Vorpal> Deewiant, checking with wireshark, looks like the connection is *sometimes* made under tup, but never sends the actual file data. Sometimes no connection is even made
16:11:06 <Vorpal> Yeah I guess I can't use tup yet, I need distcc when testing on the RPi, way to slow otherwise.
16:19:17 <Vorpal> Deewiant, yeah I tried with env -i setting only HOME and PATH, that works just fine to compile a test file
16:19:21 <Vorpal> it is something else that breaks it
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16:56:33 <zzo38> I seem to remember once some computer game my brother made in MegaZeux had a room with a professor who, when you talked to them, said "Hello, I didn't see you there." and then "O no! I pushed the 'D' button! That makes the room explosive!" and then the professor dies and game over. (Actually pushing the 'D' key during the game has no function.)
17:09:32 <zzo38> How well will ARCFOUR work when you are modulo some other number (that isn't necessarily a power of two)?
17:09:54 <Bike> oh, this is hl2, i wasn't sure
17:11:05 <Bike> "prelapsarian", nice word
17:13:10 <Bike> well that was weird.
17:13:35 <Phantom_Hoover> i hear valve might be behind it (i haven't really looked into it)
17:14:43 <Phantom_Hoover> https://twitter.com/MarcLaidlaw/status/334424382522941443
17:14:52 <Bike> it is pretty viral-market-y, but hints at the future existence of HL3, which is obviously impossible
17:15:23 <zzo38> Like FreeCell, Solter Solitaire is a solitaire card game with no hidden information.
17:15:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, eh, i'm happy with it just being a little project he did to continue his story
17:15:53 <Bike> yeah it's nice
17:16:09 <Bike> reminds me of MINERVA
17:17:17 <Bike> it would be nice if episode 3 had the minerva guy's level design
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17:50:39 <Bike> "I don't want to start an epic flaming napalm screaming fight, but the short version is your position is completely retarded"
17:53:09 <zzo38> Can you answer this question? If the PC of one of your game(s) came to life and tried to kill you, how would they do it?
17:54:16 <zzo38> And in what game, specifically?
17:55:13 <Bike> just one of my plot bunnies
17:55:31 <zzo38> What is plot bunnies?
17:56:10 <shachaf> zzo38: Is your brother similar to you?
17:56:22 <zzo38> shachaf: Similar to me in what way?
17:56:25 <Bike> a "plot bunny" is a kind of rabbit that lives in my basal ganglion and yells about urumqi.
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17:56:34 <zzo38> And did you make a game called "Monoids: The Game"?
17:57:22 <shachaf> Well, I don't know. Never met him.
17:57:39 <zzo38> Then I don't know the answer either.
17:57:54 <zzo38> If you don't know the answer of my question.
17:59:25 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, making computer games in MegaZeux is one thing.
17:59:55 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, although both of us also use other systems (and he doesn't use MegaZeux anymore, actually).
18:00:25 <shachaf> You also make chess variants.
18:00:25 <zzo38> However, his games usually have graphics and my games usually don't have graphics.
18:00:38 <shachaf> Does he make esoteric languages?
18:01:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left.
18:01:10 <zzo38> shachaf: Just one, called "QWERTY Keyboard Dotty Language".
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18:03:17 <zzo38> The question about the PC of your games trying to kill you is from ifMUD; it is in the ifMUD library (you can walk there, or you can teleport there by typing 'library').
18:03:39 <shachaf> zzo38: Has he ever been in here?
18:03:50 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't think so.
18:04:12 <zzo38> I tried to telephone him to ask him just now, but it is busy.
18:06:25 <fizzie> Frumble grumble nothing ever works right.
18:06:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:07:32 <fizzie> Installed some new components, and now (a) an old HD does not appear when it's inside the box (even in a SATA port w/ cables that work for another disk), but works fine in an external USB case; and the machine won't boot an Ubuntu DVD but has no qualms about booting a Windows 8 DVD.
18:07:43 <fizzie> (And I've disabled the Secure Boot thing.)
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18:19:22 <fizzie> Is there a reason why growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/dvd=image.iso 'ing an Ubuntu image on a DVD+RW disc (in particular) would be unbootable?
18:19:29 <HackEgo> slist doof: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
18:19:33 <fizzie> Like some sort of +RW extra-magic.
18:21:21 <zzo38> I think it must be because it is +RW, but I don't know much about that. You have to use -R instead, I think. (I have a DVD recorder which won't play menus on +RW discs (I read the manual; I don't have any +RW discs); so this must be why.)
18:22:14 <fizzie> Maybe it'd boot from a USB stick so I could circumvent that requirement.
18:22:28 <zzo38> You could try that.
18:39:45 <fizzie> Hrm. Well. It booted from the USB stick, displayed a boot menu, but the "try Ubuntu" option is not working very well. There's just a one-pixel wide pink line on the left edge of screen.
18:41:31 <fizzie> Oh, it's still doing something. Well, maybe my USB stick is just very slow.
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19:17:03 <Taneb> Is anyone here to quickly translate something into Swedish?
19:17:28 <Taneb> "How goes the [learning of the] Swedish [language]"
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19:24:28 <fizzie> "Hur går svenskan?" (Disclaimer: a Finn speaking.)
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19:53:32 <Chris__> In combinatory logic, is there a one-point basis which does not contain abstraction? The iota comabintor, "X", is a one-point basis defined as (\x.x S K), however both S and K are abstractions.
19:54:26 <Bike> what do you mean by "abstraction", i'm unfamiliar
19:54:56 <elliott> i.e. (\x. ...) where ... doesn't contain any lambda abstractions itself.
19:55:05 <elliott> I guess you could allow (\x y. ...) if you're feeling generous
19:57:14 <Chris__> Actually, (\x y. ...) is acceptable if none of the arguments are applied to an abstraction, in the same way that S does not apply any of its 3 arguments to an abstraction (\xyz.xz(yz)).
19:57:49 <elliott> Chris__: sure. but (\x y. ...) is (\x. (\y. ...)) so you can argue about whether it contains an abstraction.
19:58:03 <elliott> presumably there are formal definitions for and theorems about this and I just don't know them. too bad oerjan isn't here
19:59:00 <Chris__> You're right, it does contain an abstraction. I should rephrase my question to whether or not there is a one-point basis which does not apply any of its arguments to an abstraction.
19:59:38 <Bike> there's nothing else to apply to, is there?
19:59:58 <Chris__> Other arguments, just like S does.
20:01:15 <elliott> technically (\x. x x S) or such wouldn't apply any of its arguments to an abstraction. but yes, it's clear what you mean :P
20:02:06 <Bike> yeah, i see, you want a one-basis combinator where the text of the abstraction is only applications and references
20:02:20 <Bike> S is an abstraction, so, yeah
20:02:33 <Chris__> Maybe one of you will know if what I'm trying to do is even possible. I'm trying to construct a programming language based on combinatory logic which takes as input some expression containing only applications of a one-point combinator (e.g. X(X X)(X (X X))) and outputs the normal form of it.
20:03:06 <Chris__> I know this is possible with 2 combinators, S and K of course. But I'm trying to think of how to do it with just 1.
20:04:17 <Bike> i wonder if you could use a language-based argument there somehow
20:04:34 <Chris__> What do you mean by a language-based argument?
20:05:31 <Bike> some vague idea based on all wffs in this being completely described by a CFG, i dunno
20:05:47 <elliott> Chris__: look at iota/jot.
20:06:01 <elliott> http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Iota/
20:06:08 <Chris__> elliott, I have, and I wrote an interpreter for Jot, haha.
20:07:10 <Bike> so why do you want no abstractions?
20:07:28 <Bike> i mean, iota is already applications+one combinator
20:07:53 <elliott> Bike: yeah but there's something hacky to it.
20:08:05 <elliott> like, S and K are "abstraction-free" in this sense.
20:08:17 <elliott> iota "feels" like it's just bundling S and K without actually simplifying the bundle.
20:08:54 <Chris__> Both Iota and Jot output lambda expressions, not sequences of 1s and 0s. I'm looking for a language like Jot (input is a binary string) which outputs a binary string, not a lambda expression.
20:09:24 <Chris__> There are ways to encode lambda expressions into binary strings (e.g. de Bruijn indices), but that's not quite what I'm looking for.
20:10:23 <Bike> i'm imagining iota but with one combinator "c" (i'm so clever) with n arguments, and you want to say that the normal form of cx...x is just itself if there are less than n x's
20:10:42 <Chris__> I'm looking for something like input: S, K, and parentheses (or `, the application operator), which gets reduced to another CL expression containing S, K, and parentheses, and the output is the binary encoding of that.
20:10:43 <Bike> which allows "initial" lambda abstraction but not, like, something else
20:12:21 <Chris__> Yes, in the same way that the normal form of (S x y) is (S x y).
20:12:58 <Chris__> All I need is a one-point combinator that has reduction rules which do not contain other combinators
20:14:16 <Chris__> Such that the input CL expression gets reduced to another CL expression in normal form, and both expressions contain 2 symbols. One would be the application operator, and the other would be the one-point combinator that I'm looking for.
20:14:54 <Chris__> SK is very close, but it uses 2 combinators instead of 1.
20:21:35 <Chris__> Any ideas? I tried coming up with the reduction rules for X which do not result in expressions containing S or K. For example, even though `X`X`XX reduces to K, I would leave the expression unreduced. However, ``XXX reduces to X, and that does not contain S or K so the reduced expression is written as X.
20:21:36 <Bike> *ii -> iSK -> SSKK -> SK(KK) normal form, right i got this straight in my head now
20:22:08 <Bike> i'm slow, i apologize :p
20:22:39 <Chris__> No worries, I have spent many hours learning this myself
20:26:21 <Bike> i'm still thinking of this in language terms... the language of normal SK forms is unrestricted, i think?
20:26:36 <Chris__> What does unrestricted mean?
20:27:46 <Bike> an unrestricted grammar. basically any machine that can recognize the language (distinguish it from badly formed formulas) would be turing
20:29:04 <Chris__> Oh, I believe so. Some SK expressions have no normal form, and are infinite loops essentially.
20:30:04 <Bike> oh. right. that means not having a normal form, not... right ok
20:33:37 <Chris__> Intuitively, it seems like a language consisting of some one-point combinator + application operator should exist, but I haven't found such a thing anywhere.
20:34:14 <Bike> how's the intuition work?
20:34:29 <Chris__> The one-point combinators are always defined in terms of abstractions or other combinators.
20:34:50 <Bike> well, i guess bitstring to bitstring functions are ill-behaved enough
20:34:56 <Sgeo> Liquid War seems like a great game marred by shit execution
20:35:05 <elliott> my intuition is that you need abstractions inside for one combinator thingy
20:35:45 <Chris__> I mean that the I combinator can be rewritten in terms of S and K, then S and K can be rewritten in terms of some X combinator.
20:36:08 <Bike> that's pretty flimsy
20:36:15 <Chris__> Bike, what do you mean by ill-behaved?
20:36:36 <Bike> potentially uncomputable
20:37:32 <Bike> you want it to be uncomputable in a particular way though, since e.g. any tritstring starting with SII`SII has no normal form
20:37:47 <Bike> (where I is replaced with the SK definition obv)
20:38:25 <Chris__> Right, ```SII``SII has no normal form
20:39:12 <Sgeo> Are there any good alternatives to Liquid war>
20:39:16 <Bike> i mean that's like having a function where having so-and-so low order trits in the input means derp uncomputable
20:39:28 <Sgeo> Or has the OSS community decided that since the project exists, there's no need to make a better one?
20:41:22 <Chris__> Bike, I don't think there is anything wrong with that
20:41:53 <Chris__> Having those low-order trits means the expression is uncomputable
20:42:13 <Bike> oh. yeah sure. i'm sort of thinking to myself in three different formalisms at once because i'm stupid
20:43:24 <Chris__> I suppose I could do with tritstrings, but it would be very cool to reduce it to bitstrings (without simply encoding trits to bits, like ` = 00, S = 01, and K = 10)
20:43:57 <Chris__> Because then what do you do with 11? It seems odd to have one undefined encoding
20:46:28 <Bike> would something as stupid as taking a three-combinator basis instead work
20:47:07 <Chris__> Lol, yes but a one-combinator basis would be better than either 2 or 3
20:47:20 <Chris__> Maybe not "better", but "simpler" in my mind
20:47:47 <Bike> no i mean, if you had a three combinator basis you could encode it as a bitstring and get a 1-combinator thing out of that? i think?
20:48:15 <Chris__> I'm not sure if I follow that
20:48:58 <Chris__> 3-combinator basis like SKI? Plus application ` is 4? So that 00 to 11 have meaning?
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20:51:41 <Bike> i mean, encode SKI` as a bitstring, then find a way to treat 0 and 1 as combinators
20:51:44 <Bike> i dunno if that works.
20:53:20 <Bike> well maybe BCL
20:53:39 <Chris__> BCL simply encodes lambda expressions, but individual 1s and 0s don't mean anything
20:54:22 <fizzie> elliott: olsner: Also how about an #esoteric meetup at Alternative Party instead? It's smaller. (Also sillier.)
20:54:41 <olsner> fizzie: what/when/where is that?
20:55:10 <fizzie> olsner: It's here in October 18th-to-20th.
20:55:11 <Chris__> It would be cool if each 1 and 0 was a combinator, and the output is the normal form
20:55:17 <Bike> Chris__: what do you mean by "don't mean anything"
20:55:43 <fizzie> There's approximately zero information about this year's event, except that there'll be one.
20:56:00 <Chris__> in BLC, I believe abstraction is 00, application is 01, and an index n is 1^n0. A 0 by itself isn't any of those 3 things
20:56:37 <fizzie> (They stopped organizing it last year because they thought it was getting far too mainstream; instead, they focused on more alternative things; turns out, though, that if they're alternative enough, no-one's going to attend, and then you don't have anyone pay the bills.)
20:56:43 <Bike> actually it's this thing http://esolangs.org/wiki/Binary_combinatory_logic
20:56:55 <Bike> which is pretty much encoded ski i guess
20:57:05 <olsner> "Alternative Party is one of the largest demo parties in Finland." according to wikipedia
20:57:33 <Bike> but i mean, what you're talking about there is just your interpretation, why can't there be another one?
20:57:38 <fizzie> olsner: Well, that's not saying all that much; everything's that not Assembly is tiny compared to that.
20:57:51 <fizzie> olsner: It's a proper (non-gaming) party, though.
20:58:27 <Chris__> Bike, yeah that is almost exactly what I'm looking for, but such that S and K are replaced by one combinator
20:58:50 <fizzie> olsner: You can peruse the archive at http://ry.altparty.org/action/ -- you can scroll down a bit to find the 2002-2011 pages.
21:00:09 <fizzie> olsner: (Though it's somewhat likely this year's event will be something rather different.)
21:00:12 <Bike> Chris__: see, you're putting interpretations on it
21:00:37 <Chris__> Bike, I was thinking instead of SK`, use X`. The only thing I don't know is how to reduce expressions of the X combinator without introducing S and K.
21:01:06 <elliott> fizzie: still sounds a bit scary!!
21:01:11 <elliott> maybe if Bike there is to comfortingly kidnap me.
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21:07:44 <fizzie> "finish=30756.4min" best initial raid-1 resync ever. (I'm doing a thing while it's running, and it only uses idle I/O.)
21:08:47 <fizzie> I shared a pic I took somewhere. (I'm sure there are more official ones.)
21:09:53 <olsner> 21 days? pretty fast raid resync
21:10:18 <fizzie> olsner: It's back to 191.8min now.
21:10:56 <fizzie> olsner: It's based on the current speed, and it only does 1000 KB/s when there's no idle I/O time.
21:11:06 <fizzie> (It's doing 163938K/s now.)
21:11:23 <fizzie> I have no idea where I put my altparty pic.
21:11:51 <olsner> hmm, resyncing a mirror should probably have a bit higher priority, you have limited time until the second disk in the mirror breaks
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21:13:50 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, but it's the initial creation resync.
21:14:03 <fizzie> olsner: (Admittedly I think it's the same defaults for a non-initial resync.)
21:14:43 <fizzie> elliott: I, uh... I think this is from altparty http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/i-smoke.jpg but it's not all like that at all.
21:15:57 <fizzie> http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/sunshine.jpg http://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/sunshine2.jpg that's from there too.
21:16:11 <fizzie> (But it's not always that smoky.)
21:16:52 <elliott> it looks like something from a sci-fi film
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21:19:45 <fizzie> Well, it's from 2010, and the theme that year was "Space: the forgotten frontier", so that's appropriate.
21:23:10 <fizzie> elliott: My wife told me to tell you that she's been there (which is true) and it's not scary (which is allegedly also true).
21:23:21 <fizzie> (It might not be terribly exciting, however.)
21:35:15 <elliott> fizzie: is your wife particularly invested in me visiting altparty for some reason :P
21:35:30 <elliott> or were you just like "HEY I'm talking about altparty in #esoteric do you have any INPUT"
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21:40:34 <fizzie> Well. I mentioned olsner's Assembly-meetup suggestion as a part of my regular report of things happening, and she suggested I should suggest altparty instead.
21:40:37 <fizzie> (Also perhaps she thinks it'd lessen the chances of having to go to Hexham? Who knows.)
21:43:45 <elliott> have you informed her of the abject horrors of hexham
21:43:59 <elliott> also it's super cute that you tell your wife about #esoteric happenings
21:51:58 <fizzie> I've told her there's a fine cathedral at Hexham, because that's p. much the extent of my knowledge in the field of Hexhamology.
21:55:53 <elliott> um not sure abbeys count as cathedrals
21:56:08 <oerjan> maybe they do in finland
21:57:55 <fizzie> elliott: Hexham Abbey is in Category:Anglo-Saxon cathedrals, that's close enough for me.
21:58:56 <elliott> how does your wife feel about trondheim
21:59:03 <elliott> two birds, one stone, etc.
21:59:37 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/52ffccf4adaeff692060308c70ea68d1/tumblr_mr10axwMKH1qklx3fo1_500.jpg
22:01:51 <fizzie> We was in Svolvær/Nordland somewhat recently, I think that was enough Norway for a few years.
22:09:08 <oerjan> <elliott> presumably there are formal definitions for and theorems about this and I just don't know them. too bad oerjan isn't here <-- i'd expect tromp_ is the resident expert on this stuff
22:09:42 <oerjan> although he seems rather idle at the moment
22:09:49 <Bike> elliott isn't an expert expert discriminator like shachaf can be
22:10:58 <oerjan> although i have certainly _looked_ at one-point bases for combinators before, i cannot quite recall whether this is impossible though, although none of the examples in wikipedia is of the right type
22:11:58 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing something more substantive than that. maybe it was tromp_'s paper.
22:12:20 <oerjan> (i'm certainly not bying access to that elsevier one)
22:12:33 <elliott> is oerjan boycotting elsevier too :P
22:12:52 <pikhq> fizzie: Initial creation resync and non-initial resyncs are effectively identical performance-wise.
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22:12:59 <oerjan> well i might boycott elsevier if i _ever_ bought articles online.
22:13:13 <pikhq> Basically how that's done is considering one drive to be 100% failed and resyncing that.
22:15:13 <fizzie> pikhq: They *could* easily have differently tweaked speed_limit_min/max parameters, though.
22:16:54 <elliott> oerjan: it would seem fair for people with phds to get lifetime access to this stuff...
22:18:05 <fizzie> The copy of 700G from an external should-be-USB3-but-turns-out-to-run-at-480M-probably-because-there-were-some-low-speed-devices-in-the-same-internal-hub is the main bottleneck here, though. (It's running at about 42MB/s.)
22:18:35 <olsner> are you sure you plugged it into a usb3 socket?
22:20:51 <fizzie> olsner: And it's in one of the xhci ports. But I've vague recollections of something about SuperSpeed not being available if there are low-speed devices in the same branch of the tree. (And it wasn't really obvious how the ports are grouped.)
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22:24:48 <fizzie> (Or possibly it's just broken in some other way.)
22:26:51 <fizzie> The ISO I ended up booting with for these pre-installation operations (debian-7.10-netinst-amd64) also very nicely had an e1000e driver too old to support the onboard Intel NIC, so no SSH either. "Meh."
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22:27:56 <olsner> the latest debian is too old? what a surprise
22:28:46 <fizzie> You could argue that the Debian is "just fine" and it's just the hardware that's too new.
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22:38:12 <fizzie> For some reason I never think to worry about network card support, and now 2 out of the 2 last installs have had an "oh, no driver for the network chip?" surprise.
22:38:53 <elliott> fizzie: do you know about EFI support in virtual machines
22:39:37 <fizzie> Not really. I think it exists.
22:39:42 <Bike> when that chris person was here before did they have the same number of underscores
22:41:02 <Bike> ...that was them from before, right
22:41:46 <Bike> damn, it was "ChrisW"
22:42:42 <Bike> i forgot to mention the really obvious thing about prefix encoding.
22:43:28 <elliott> turns out there's just a billion chrisses who like the lambda calculus
22:44:33 <Bike> literally angry with rage here
22:45:05 <elliott> that. that's quite a common effect of rage
22:45:22 <olsner> are you sure you aren't just enraged with anger?
22:47:51 <Bike> well, anyway, he inspired me to write ski small step as an N -> N function and now i'm wondering about connections to dynamics. i need help
22:49:11 <Bike> i was /going/ to do something today, but i ended up just faffing about
22:50:47 <Bike> Anyway. Someone tell me the best way to get the number of digits of the base-b representation of a natural
22:50:59 <Bike> log doesn't work so great because like, rounding error, maaaaan
22:53:12 <olsner> you can probably estimate from the number of bits in the base-2 representation, and/or do a binary search to find the b^n <= your number
22:53:51 <olsner> or something like length . showIntAtBase perhaps
22:54:06 <Bike> that's what i'm doing right now. it's terrible and i hate it, imo
22:54:14 <Bike> might as well throw together binary search
22:54:33 <elliott> you could use logBase on CReal!
22:54:45 <lambdabot> 10.2691266791494178878629061634710448236888
22:54:47 <elliott> > logBase 10 1234 :: CReal
22:54:48 <lambdabot> 3.0913151596972228772592050619999463466528
22:55:04 <elliott> I don't know if logBase for CReal is precise but it should be.
22:55:12 <elliott> and then it's just a matter of rounding.
22:55:16 <Bike> "what's the O time"
22:55:35 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (abs n)) == length (show (abs n))
22:55:41 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (abs n)) == length (show (abs n))
22:55:44 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
22:55:52 <elliott> @check \(n::Integer) -> ceiling (logBase 10 (abs n)) == length (show (abs n))
22:55:52 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 15:ScopedTypeVariables is not enabled
22:56:20 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (fromInteger (abs n)) :: CReal) == length (show (abs n))
22:56:23 <lambdabot> (0 tests)mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:56:26 <elliott> @check \n -> ceiling (logBase 10 (fromInteger (abs n)) :: CReal) == length (show (abs n))
22:56:30 <lambdabot> (0 tests)mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
22:56:32 <Bike> i <3 lambdabot
22:56:43 <elliott> I run this bot and I have no idea how it ever works or breaks or anything
22:57:01 <Bike> also the binary search thing might do kind of a lot of allocation with bignums, hm
22:57:27 <Bike> kind of wish i had generalizeder >>
22:58:03 <Bike> i guess that's kind of ass to compute isn't it
22:58:21 <elliott> anyway I think that CReal solution is theoretically optimal?
22:58:36 <elliott> I don't think you can get faster than length . show really, except for micro-optimisations
22:58:38 <Bike> computable real
22:59:39 <Bike> how's showIntAtBase work? just repeated division i imagine
22:59:59 <elliott> obviously you can skip the mod part.
23:01:38 <olsner> it sounds like you'd end up with some extra work that could be avoidable if you only want the length
23:02:03 <elliott> > let digits 0 = 0; digits n = 1 + digits (n `div` 10) in digits 1234
23:02:35 <Bike> i guess i'll try it with the largest b^n that fits in an immediate and laugh myself to sleep
23:03:42 <Bike> i forget haskell words. not a bignum
23:04:27 <elliott> Fiora: are there any fancy CPU tricks you can do to optimise (binary) digit counting?
23:04:40 <elliott> since I guess the only real gains you'll get here are low level
23:04:52 <elliott> though I guess counting up powers of 2 is asymptotically faster than repeated integer division?
23:04:54 <Bike> well it's basically clz.
23:05:16 <elliott> well, I was thinking for arbitrary size integers. but I guess it's repr-dependent
23:05:38 <Bike> don't most bignums keep a size? if so it's pretty easy
23:06:33 <Bike> this bignum is 372 64-bit words plus a head word with clz 19, so it has 23853 bits
23:06:49 <elliott> well, that's boring, so let's say it doesn't keep a size.
23:07:00 <elliott> just "one bit is 0 if it's the end and 1 if it's not" or whatever.
23:07:35 <Fiora> but it has to keep track of like, memory allocation and stuff, right?
23:07:39 <Bike> guess you just have to traverse them all then
23:08:06 <elliott> Fiora: well, you could just malloc it and then the data you'd need to cheat is hidden in the libc, I guess
23:08:17 <elliott> my mission: to make people's lives difficult
23:08:34 <elliott> I guess you'd just clz them anyway or whatever.
23:08:40 <CADD> elliott: so i have my own instance of lambdabot going. so to get around the mueval time out by just adding -t 3000 on the mueval line in ./src/Lambdabot/Config/Core.hs. is that kosher?
23:09:09 <Bike> ok new "exciting question" for elliott: find the digit count of a number, but the number is in modular residue format.
23:09:33 <Bike> instead of storing the number you store it mod 2, mod 3, mod 5, mod 7 ad infinitium
23:09:49 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
23:10:07 <CADD> elliott: i mean it worked, but is that the "proper" way to do it?
23:10:12 <Bike> e.g. 17 is [1,2,2,3].
23:11:09 <elliott> CADD: that sounds like an old version of lambdabot.
23:11:27 <CADD> really? i have 4.3?
23:11:35 <lambdabot> git clone git://github.com/mokus0/lambdabot.git
23:11:54 <CADD> cool, thanks! and thanks for the awesome bot!
23:12:12 <elliott> I didn't write it, I just run it :P
23:12:19 <Bike> Fiora: (this lets you represent any number up to the product of the modularssss by the chinese remainder theorem, aka the worst named theorem i can think of)
23:12:22 <CADD> oh, either way!
23:12:37 <Fiora> Bike: oooh. that's sneaky
23:12:54 <Bike> you can do multiplication and addition pretty easy since those commute with mod
23:20:50 <elliott> my control key keeps holding itself down
23:21:38 <Bike> that's what you get for not answering my randomly posed questions
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23:35:58 <Bike> what is the problem sir and/or ma'am and/or other appropriate honorific
23:43:19 <Jafet> Convert the number to radixal format hth
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23:55:20 <oerjan> Bike: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.28.6593&rep=rep1&type=pdf hth
23:55:40 <oerjan> (one of my favorite complexity results)
23:56:26 <Bike> why is this written like a news story