00:02:10 <Bike> "manx isle and environs"
00:03:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "British and Irish Isles" seems to be a common choice
00:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> 'isle' and 'island' bear like no etymological relation
00:04:53 * ais523 hazards a guess that The Question is "What is The Question?"
00:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> the question is "what is your mass and approximate coördinates"
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00:37:41 <oerjan> has a certain novelty to it
00:37:58 <HackEgo> naautore obeyogan mal jan sun lec mnesay fluvato impil nrneff stach cati bronster hnsta hairfy discherbra reat heaphtali moth mina
00:38:00 <oerjan> HackEgo: don't you mean yesod
00:38:22 <oerjan> obeyogan is what the people in turkey do when they support the government
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00:41:43 <Gregor> bronster (n): Any person who has ever used a portmanteau of "bro" and another word to greet or introduce a friend.
00:50:08 <Sgeo> `slist sb&hj 44
00:50:09 <HackEgo> slist sb&hj 44: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:03:45 <oerjan> seen on proggit http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1n260u/brainfuck_in_xslt_because_no_reason/
01:08:29 <Bike> http://quomodocumque.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/sorry-i-already-submitted-to-the-journal-of-surjections/ rad
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01:20:51 <elliott> Gregor: hey, you got linked from http://chneukirchen.org/trivium/.
01:25:06 * oerjan notices http://calvinanddune.tumblr.com/ on that page
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02:31:45 <Bike> http://kozmo.com/ I almost think this is satire
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03:48:47 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
03:49:39 <oklopol> "Phantom_Hoover said 19d 5h 44m 47s ago: say okokoko a bit in #esoteric so we can `addquote it" haha
04:05:41 <Sgeo> Does Agora still exist?
04:05:48 <Sgeo> Apparently there was a dictatorship scam recently
04:05:55 <Sgeo> And the dictator's a fool
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06:01:27 <Taneb> WHY DID I THINK IT'D BE A GOOD IDEA TO WATCH THE FINALE OF FREE! BEFORE BREAKFAST
06:02:49 <Taneb> For an anime about water, my response was appropriate
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06:04:36 <Taneb> There is water pooling on my face
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06:46:06 <fizzie> "FuNeSoMo" is such a silly project name.
06:46:25 <Taneb> Less silly than PubSubHubbub
06:46:29 <fizzie> (It's short for "Future Networks, Society and Modeling".
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10:58:08 <Taneb> I've just got rust-mode working on emacs!
11:08:26 <fizzie> Was that an amused laugh or an evil madman laugh?
11:11:13 <Taneb> I'm leaning towards the latter, fizzie
11:16:01 <HackEgo> olist 921: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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12:13:02 <boily> @tell oerjan I understood your reference to curry about 4 hours later after you said it.
12:15:06 <lambdabot> kmc says: "Haskell is great, because Curry-Howard! Proving things in the type system. We can prove that, uh, Ints exist, unless they're ⊥."
12:19:53 <boily> http://www.technologyreview.com/view/519581/how-google-converted-language-translation-into-a-problem-of-vector-space-mathematics/
12:21:07 <boily> @tell oerjan re your previous @message: ☺
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12:39:10 <Taneb> boily, that is an interesting article
12:47:26 <Koen__> do you know how hard it was for me not to tell YOU you were boring? :(
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12:52:53 <boily> Taneb: vector spaces... the final translation frontier...
12:52:58 <lambdabot> boily said 39m 56s ago: I understood your reference to curry about 4 hours later after you said it.
12:52:58 <lambdabot> boily said 31m 51s ago: re your previous @message: ☺
12:53:16 <oerjan> boily: JUST AS PLANNED
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12:57:31 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo Everybody seems to have been convinced that Fool's scam didn't work (ais523 made a massively reasoned judgement). Agora is in a bit of a lull, though, with all important Officers resigned.
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13:03:10 <oerjan> <fizzie> "FuNeSoMo" is such a silly project name. <-- it doesn't even seem to mean anything interesting in japanese. ("Also ship its" ?)
13:04:34 <Taneb> I also ship its OTP
13:05:55 <oerjan> there's probably someone somewhere making a business of shipping one time pads.
13:11:12 <boily> oerjan: I think Taneb was trope overdosing.
13:11:48 <oerjan> ok but i've forgot what OTP is.
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13:12:31 <oerjan> google provided the one true meaning, though.
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13:16:13 <oerjan> probably, now i'm on tvtropes after all.
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13:20:19 <boily> oerjan: how many open tabs?
13:20:45 <oerjan> well i had 3 tvtropes tabs but now i'm down to one.
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13:30:56 <oerjan> (one of them is the same, though.)
13:33:46 <boily> what is the difference between a duck?
13:34:57 <oerjan> oh wait sorry, that's an elephant, not a duck.
13:37:23 <oerjan> "Unfortunately, half the time I tell this joke people miss the parody and ask "The difference between a duck and WHAT?" Whenever that happens I cry inside for humanity."
13:38:52 <oerjan> boily: how old do you speak french?
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13:41:28 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
13:41:49 <oerjan> we're getting so efficient.
13:45:45 <oerjan> whois looks like venezuela.
13:54:07 <boily> ottianna: about... 24 years, I guess, give or take a pregnancy.
13:54:23 <boily> s/ottianna/oerjan/
13:54:47 <boily> ottianna: ¿de qué país viene?
13:56:18 <boily> google translate nails it again. en:cumana becomes fr:cumana. yééééé...
13:56:32 <boily> ottianna: parles-tu français?
13:56:40 <oerjan> i think it's a city name
13:58:58 <boily> ottianna: nuestro traductor español regular es fuera del canal. estoy tratando de convencerlo de que venga aquí.
14:03:57 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
14:04:07 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fueue.c \ ul.emm
14:04:28 <Taneb> Hey, where's that main-as-a-value program stored?
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14:05:10 <HackEgo> awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
14:05:25 <HackEgo> const short main[] = {18517,58761,49201,49801,49407,51081,3816,0,18432,27749,28524,8236,28535,27762,8548,24074,3762,1295,15536,-207,1295};
14:05:25 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
14:05:43 <boily> `translate from to en es my hovercraft is full of eels
14:05:48 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 5, in <module> \ print eval(sys.argv[1]).encode('utf-8') \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ TypeError: 'NoneType' object is not subscriptable
14:06:02 <boily> `translate en es my hovercraft is full of eels
14:06:05 <oerjan> boily: the translate commands bit rotted ages ago.
14:06:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
14:06:07 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/json", line 4, in <module> \ data = json.loads(sys.stdin.read().decode('utf-8')) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/__init__.py", line 310, in loads \ return _default_decoder.decode(s) \ File "/opt/python27/lib/python2.7/json/decoder.py", line 346, in decode \ obj, end
14:06:14 <boily> oerjan: looks like so.
14:06:35 <oerjan> google's api changed, or something.
14:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> this seems like the kind of thing that's elliott's fault
14:06:51 <boily> oerjan: well, in fact, they obliterated it, iirc.
14:07:04 <boily> elliott: hogy hogy hogy.
14:09:33 <oerjan> `cat bin/translatefromto
14:09:34 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TEXT="$1" \ FROM=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ TO=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/ .*$//'` \ TEXT=`echo "$TEXT" | sed 's/^[^ ]* //'` \ if [ "$FROM" = "auto" ] ; then FROM="" ; fi \ \ curl -e http://codu.org/ http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/services/language/translate \ \ --data-urlenco
14:10:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1aecho "This google api no longer exists."; exit 1' bin/translatefromto
14:10:50 <HackEgo> This google api no longer exists.
14:11:54 <boily> ottianna: solamente si usted participa en la dominación mundial de los lenguajes de programación esotéricos.
14:13:16 <oerjan> ^ul ((EXTERMINAR! )S:^):^
14:13:16 <fungot> EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! EXTERMINAR! ...too much output!
14:14:47 <Taneb> oerjan, who wrote the main-as-a-value program?
14:15:18 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't remember, search the logs?
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14:18:33 <oerjan> looks like Jafet http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log?rev=hello.c
14:19:21 <oerjan> with some help from fizzie.
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14:37:55 <Jafet> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log?rev=q.c
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14:45:54 <ottianna> jajajajajajjajajajjajajjajajajajajajjajajjajajajjaajjajaja
14:46:39 <ottianna> =-O:-*O:-) jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaajajajajjajaja
14:47:51 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: ton francés est doloroso.
14:52:36 <oerjan> e trur dokker e speinna gærn
14:53:39 <boily> ottianna: no es necesario entender lo que se dice aquí. todo puede suceder. tenga cuidado con las personas extrañas. diviértete con el ~duck.
14:54:09 <boily> oerjan: «ous croyons docks e serrage fou»?????????
14:55:16 <oerjan> boily: that's surprisingly close.
14:55:46 <boily> oerjan: j'y pige que dalle.
14:55:48 <oerjan> which does not imply it's close, mind you.
14:56:22 <boily> (hm. apparently, «j'y pige que dalle» becomes “I freelance shit”. way to go, google!)
14:56:48 <boily> (fyi, that one means “fsck if I understand”.)
14:57:49 <oerjan> turns out google is a bit weak on northern norwegian dialects without official spelling norms
14:58:02 <boily> ottianna: fr:dalle → es:losa.
14:58:21 <Koen__> I thought it was d'alle
14:58:42 <boily> Koen__: I prefer the flagstone version.
14:59:02 <boily> oerjan: by the way, I'm terribly confused by the bokmål/nynorsk issue.
14:59:18 <oerjan> admittedly it doesn't understand the normalized "spenna gærne" either.
14:59:58 <boily> gtrans suggests “gæren”.
15:00:05 <Phantom_Hoover> neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet
15:00:54 <oerjan> boily: "I think you're * crazy" where * ~ spenna and has no proper translation although i guess "fucking" will do.
15:01:17 <oerjan> (also the you is plural.)
15:01:46 <boily> aaaah. much clearer, now. «je pense que vous être tous crissement mongols.»
15:02:06 <boily> (not even able to properly conjugate my own verbs. shameful.)
15:04:44 <Koen__> boily: je pense que vous hêtre un arbre, monsieur
15:05:28 <oerjan> boily: well ok so in 1814 when norway got transfered from denmark to sweden in a big post-napoleonic war mess, our official writing language was _danish_.
15:05:29 <boily> Koen__: bon point.
15:06:13 <boily> oerjan: but you still spoke norwegian, right?
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15:06:33 <Koen__> oerjan: did _you_ speak danish at the time?
15:06:46 <oerjan> the mess left us with great inne autonomy (and a constitution), which meant despite being unioned with the swedes we could start being a bit openly nationalistic. and then people thought, we shouldn't keep writing danish.
15:08:01 <oerjan> boily: well except for the upper classs in the capital, which were in fact at one earlier point said to have the best danish pronunciation in the kingdom.
15:09:14 <oerjan> which meant that even after a while had gone, the upper class spoke a norwegian language much closer to danish than what the lower and rural classes did.
15:10:53 <oerjan> so, when deciding how to turn our writing language from danish to norwegian, there was the question of whether to start from the upper class speech and gradually norwegianize that, or whether to start radically by making up an entirely new writing language from "pure" norwegian as spoken out in the country.
15:11:10 <oerjan> and perversely, we did _both_.
15:12:07 <oerjan> bokmål descends from the former, nynorsk from the latter. although both forms have been brought _much_ closer than they originally were back in the late 19th century.
15:12:57 <oerjan> and during the 50's/60's the government tried to push for the final unification by mixing together the least extreme forms on both sides.
15:13:05 <oerjan> ...that backfired horribly.
15:14:01 <boily> I can understand the dichotomy between spoken and written language (French has it), but your case is as you said: perverse.
15:14:19 <oerjan> because although the forms have many commonalities, they have incompatible base _aesthetics_.
15:14:43 <oerjan> and so the mixture was considered by many to be unspeakably ugly.
15:15:55 <oerjan> and so we still have two forms today. although nynorsk has lost a lot of ground, so bokmål is the default in most respects except in a fraction of municipalities.
15:17:00 <boily> and what about all these dialects? that's another subject I have a poor grasp on, because, well... Québec French is Québec French wherever you are (with some minor accent variations).
15:18:46 <oerjan> and at the same time from the 70's or so, norwegians developed the unusual habit of insisting on speaking dialect. in fact it started as part of the movement to preserve nynorsk "Speak dialect, write nynorsk!" is the slogan. the latter part did not succeed so much, the former succeeded brilliantly.
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15:19:23 <boily> oerjan: so you speak a northern dialect, and write bokmål, if I'm not mistaken?
15:20:06 <boily> and you understand and can communicate with other norwegians? (not necessarily by morse)
15:20:15 <oerjan> i recall recently someone pointed out even our crown princess speaks dialect :P
15:21:11 <oerjan> (the crown prince grew up in upper class oslo, which is the least dialecty part of the country.)
15:22:29 <oerjan> there are some dialects that are harder to understand, but they're not so often met around here.
15:22:31 <Bike> "The average English speaker is fluent in their language at the age of 12, in contrast, the average Polish speaker is fluent in their language after age of 16."
15:24:59 <oerjan> boily: btw you might ask, back in the 19th century, why anyone even _cared_ about non-upper class language. this might be connected with an unusual feature of the norwegian constitution of 1814: it gave the vote to farmers.
15:25:31 <oerjan> which i think was immensely radical at the time.
15:25:53 <oerjan> (it did _not_ give the vote to city laborers.)
15:26:51 <oerjan> also, there may have been a distinction between farmers owning their own land and farmers renting, and only the former got to vote. i vaguely think. but still, it meant in norway, the countryside could not be ignored.
15:27:18 <fizzie> "File:Om nom nom (4001714942).jpg" Wikimedia Commons has them bestly named files.
15:27:58 <Bike> "I believe most people would consider literacy as a critical component of modern language. Primary evidence is the article itself, which is written, not spoken. " god i love this comment
15:30:24 <oerjan> boily: btw there are not as big dialectal variations in norway today as there used to be back when every valley was basically isolated. the dialects seem to be consolidating in each region.
15:30:50 <oerjan> (that valley isolation part may explain why we had so many to start with.)
15:31:08 <boily> let me guess. Norway is like Switzerland, but longer.
15:31:29 <boily> fizzie: what is it a file of?
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15:32:33 <Taneb> oerjan, that sounds roughly like English but I think we started a lot earlier?
15:32:54 <oerjan> boily: pretty much. although there's also the fjords, which meant that at one time it was easier to travel by boat than by land, many places.
15:33:54 <boily> oerjan: we have at least one fjord here! :D
15:33:59 <oerjan> Taneb: i suppose quebec might not have so many dialects because the french-speakers got there only a few centuries ago?
15:34:27 <boily> Québec City was settled in 1608, so yeah, very much not long ago.
15:34:35 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't know, the US has a lot of accents
15:34:41 <Taneb> Then again it's a lot more spread out
15:34:52 <boily> Taneb: there are ten times as many Americans vs. Canadians.
15:35:29 <Taneb> Well, 100 years ago around here you could tell what village someone came from from his accent
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15:36:53 <boily> on a not quite related note, what is the name of that thing where you can spot in which language something is written by its characteristics, like «ő» means Hungarian, but you don't speak the language itself?
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15:49:08 <Koen__> boily: pattern recognition? :)
15:50:49 <boily> Koen__: yes, but from the human side. like, simple heuristics, where the error rate doesn't need to tend towards zero.
15:51:29 <boily> not the Ultra Pattern Recognition with Sliced Pineapple and a Small Umbrella Version.
15:54:07 <boily> hm. apparently it's called “language identification”. makes sense.
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15:56:12 <olsner> hmm, boily is almost the entire topic now
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16:51:38 <fizzie> Man, hard disks are so hard to open.
16:52:01 <fizzie> (I'm throwing away some broken ones, and wanted to maybe make data restoration slightly more difficult.)
16:52:21 <boily> hard disk magnets are dangerous to my physical integrity.
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16:53:47 <fizzie> I can't even get this controller board off, because two of the six (Torx) screws went all mushy. (I think my Torx head might be one size too small.)
16:54:46 -!- shikhin has joined.
16:55:12 <fizzie> I have a T10 and a T15 and the T15 doesn't fit, while the T10 just turns around.
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16:56:26 <Gregor> fizzie: But will it blend?
16:57:38 <fizzie> I don't really have a blender.
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16:59:13 <boily> fizzie: do you have a lawnmower?
17:00:21 <fizzie> I don't have one of those either.
17:03:38 <boily> fizzie: can you do penspinning with a kitchen knife?
17:06:50 <Gregor> I wonder how long you'd have to boil a hard disk before you would manage to reduce it to a rich broth.
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17:11:01 <boily> http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/Images/meat-tenderizer.jpg
17:20:36 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, when i was your age a meat tenderiser was just a big mallet
17:23:41 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not *that* young.
17:25:20 <Gregor> When I was your age "Meat Tenderizer" was my gay porn name.
17:26:28 <boily> TIL that Patrick Swayze died four years ago.
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17:28:36 <Gregor> Yeah, I seem to recall hearing that.
17:29:54 <boily> random generelectronic question: can I buy an e-ink display that interfaces just like common LCDs?
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17:37:28 <boily> deterministic prelectronicise answer: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/small-epaper-shield-p-1597.html
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17:59:56 <Koen__> has anyone heard news of the When reference implementation?
18:00:18 <Koen__> other than "You will 'soon' be able to lay your grubby little hands on it." in 2001
18:14:11 <boily> Grin seems to be the only esolang that has a builtin “arccos” function.
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18:19:41 <fizzie> boily: How about Tiny?
18:20:00 <fizzie> boily: Or Qwerty Reverse Polish Notation?
18:20:57 <boily> fizzie: I wasn't up to there, skipped Gammaplex, and I said “seems”.
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18:21:21 <fizzie> Admittedly all those call it "acos".
18:21:31 <nooodl> burlesque has it i think
18:21:45 <boily> ok. for a very, very week value of “seems”.
18:22:01 <boily> probably because I'm browsing the hello-world-in-esolangs page.
18:22:44 <fizzie> Burlesque is a Stlang derivative, so it makes sense it'd have it too.
18:23:07 <boily> speaking of burlesque, where has mroman disappeared?
18:23:22 <fizzie> That's something people do, disappear.
18:23:39 <nooodl> he's still in #anagol!
18:24:58 <boily> the Temptation of Succumbing to the ~Duck is strong, but I will heed the Phantom and not do that.
18:25:08 <metasepia> Your divination: "Swallowing" to "Shake"
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18:50:05 <boily> when trying to cram an acronym into a common word doesn't quite work out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOCK
18:50:38 <Bike> i don't know why they can't just call it "clock"
18:50:44 <kmc> i was expecting the 'L' to be the contrived part
18:51:11 <Bike> "In humans, a polymorphism in Clock, rs6832769, may be related to the personality trait agreeableness" amazing
18:51:31 <elliott> kmc: so you expected the COCK to be okay
18:51:35 <Bike> anyone know a quick way to cut a video in half, like get the first thirty seconds of a sixty second video? in mp4.
18:54:06 <boily> University of Tromsø is the world's northernmost university.
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18:56:00 <nooodl> Bike: ffmpeg -i video.mp4 -vcodec copy -acodec copy -ss 00:00:00 -t 00:00:30 trimmed_video.mp4
18:56:21 <nooodl> oh wait you need exactly half of it, always?
18:56:27 <Bike> no,that works, thanks.
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19:19:57 <myname> a prof of mine said, xor eax, eax isn't faster than mov eax, 0 anymore (iff the cpu has a special zero register)
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19:20:46 <boily> myname: maybe, but I think xor eax, eax has entered Idiomatic Legendary Status.
19:21:26 <myname> boily: well, it may be, but moving between registers can be made in "0 cycles"
19:23:03 <boily> hmm... there should be a special opcode that covers the whole xor instruction (with registers and all), that translates to the mov version.
19:23:27 <boily> so that way, you could xor things with themselves, have performance, and be happy with it.
19:23:59 <myname> yeah, it's not unlikely that this is done
19:24:27 <myname> but in this case xor is not faster than mov, it is equally fast at best
19:25:11 <myname> i'm more confused about "loop" considered slow
19:25:34 <boily> well. loop incurs branches, therefore branch prediction, therefore hair loss.
19:25:40 <myname> i.e. slower than dec rcx & cmp rcx, 0 & jne
19:26:16 <myname> well, if you make the jump without loop, you still need branch prediction
19:26:27 <fizzie> "xor eax, eax" is denser, though.
19:26:47 <myname> if i'd build a processor, i'd make loop as always taken
19:27:59 <boily> if I'd build a processor, I'd have an MP3 opcode.
19:28:24 <myname> you could even make some magic like "if rcx is 1 set the prediction to not taken instead" to make literally 0 flushes in a loop
19:28:39 <fizzie> "Dependency Breaking Idioms -- Instruction parallelism can be improved by using common instructions to clear register contents to zero. The renamer can detect them on the zero evaluation of the destination register. -- Use one of these dependency breaking idioms to clear a register when possible. -- XOR REG, REG -- Since zero idioms are detected and removed by the renamer, they have no ...
19:28:45 <fizzie> ... execution latency."
19:29:10 <fizzie> (Goes a reasonable recent version of the Intel Optimization Manual on the topic of clearing a register.)
19:29:39 <boily> myname: because I'd like to. something that really, really shouldn't get reduced to an opcode.
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19:35:23 <fizzie> As for LOOP, "Assembly/Compiler Coding Rule 31. (M impact, M generality) Avoid using complex instructions (for example, ENTER, LEAVE or LOOP) that have more than four µops and require multiple cycles to decode. Use sequences of simple instructions instead. -- Complex instructions may save architectural registers, but incur a penalty of 4 µops to set up parameters for the microsequencer ROM ...
19:35:29 <fizzie> ... in Intel NetBurst microachitecture."
19:35:58 <fizzie> Also something something about Core microarchitecture and 4-1-1-1 templates and diminishing returns.
19:36:19 <Fiora> if I remember right microcodey things can often use like 8-10+ clocks
19:36:40 <fizzie> "(micro-ops which are executed out of the microsequencer involve extra overhead).
19:36:57 <olsner> if you use LOOP often enough they'll optimize it to be the fastest alternative
19:37:16 <Fiora> this says LOOP is 5 cycles (7 uops) on haswell, LOOP(N)E is 6 cycles (11 uops)?
19:37:23 <fizzie> You have to use it quite a lot to offset what all the mainstream compilers are doing.
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19:38:36 <fizzie> Wonder if GCC "-Os" can be coaxed to LOOP, though.
19:38:46 <boily> lesson of the day: don't use loops. at all. in fact, write you programs with no branches whatsoever.
19:42:01 <myname> boily: also, don't make any data that depends on each other to avoid data hazards
19:42:02 <fizzie> boily: The Optimization Manual, IIRC, sort of recommends against that.
19:42:25 <boily> fizzie: having an MP3 opcode, or writing without branches?
19:42:30 <fizzie> Writing without branches.
19:42:58 <fizzie> AArch64 (the 64-bit ARM arch) removed most of the predicated execution because "our branch predictor is so good, they're not that useful any more".
19:43:11 <myname> fizzie: as in predicated instructions? of course
19:44:28 <fizzie> "Benchmarking shows that modern branch predictors work well enough that predicated execution of instructions does not offer sufficient benefit to justify its significant use of opcode space, and its implementation cost in advanced implementations."
19:44:32 <fizzie> (Without paraphrasing.)
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19:45:42 <fizzie> One assumes perhaps the "significant use of opcode space" was more of an issue because they needed to fit more register bits in there. (AArch64 also doubled the number of registers.)
19:46:09 <Fiora> did they keep predication for a few common cases ?
19:46:15 <Fiora> I heard they did something like that
19:46:30 <Fiora> (like I guess "conditional add" is way nicer than "conditional leading zero count")
19:46:35 <Fiora> um, do you know which ones?
19:46:54 <fizzie> Fiora: "Only conditional branches, and a handful of data processing instructions read the condition flags."
19:47:04 <fizzie> I guess that's not much of an answer.
19:47:08 <Fiora> yeah, I guess not^^;
19:47:23 <HackEgo> jix: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
19:47:36 <kmc> oh it's sad that they removed predicated instructions from ARM
19:47:41 <kmc> although that was mostly the case already with Thumb
19:47:59 <kmc> Thumb2 has the weird if-then-else instructions
19:48:06 <fizzie> kmc: They didn't include IT either.
19:48:10 <kmc> does Leg have those?
19:48:19 <kmc> (I'm going to call it Leg instead of AArch64 if that's OK with everyone)
19:48:41 <fizzie> Fiora: Oh, the document I was quoting (pasted from irclogs) has more detail. Just a moment.
19:48:43 <Fiora> so does that mean that switching to x86 is giving up an arm and a leg?
19:49:21 <fizzie> Fiora: "The conditional instruction types are: Conditional branch -- Add/subtract with carry -- Conditional select with increment, negate or invert -- Conditional compare"
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19:49:37 <Fiora> I guess that covers a lot of it
19:49:50 <Fiora> almost eeeverything I've ever felt like I wanted conditionals for were conditional move/add/subtract
19:50:39 <fizzie> "Conditional select with X" means you can select between two source registers based on the condition flag, and the other source can optionally be unmodified/negated/incremented/inverted.
19:50:48 <fizzie> So it's kind of like a three-argument CMOV on steroids.
19:50:53 <Fiora> ooooh, that's cool.
19:51:17 <Fiora> gosh, that kind of "source can be optionally {long list of things}" reminds me of vpperm
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19:52:06 <fizzie> And "conditional compare" means it does a comparison if the specified condition is true, otherwise sets it to an immediate value, and the idea is to flatten nested conditionals without needing to do conditional branches or arithmetic with boolean values.
19:52:39 <Fiora> so like.... if( x > y ) x = 1?
19:52:47 <kmc> sets what? the flag?
19:53:16 <fizzie> kmc: Yes, the flag that would otherwise be set as per the result of the comparison.
19:53:44 <Fiora> so it's a compare that only saves its results if a condition is true?
19:53:53 <Fiora> so like if( cond ) { condition flag = {cond2} }
19:54:05 <fizzie> Fiora: Yes. (Well, it also does not do the comparison, but I'm not sure how you'd observe that.)
19:54:28 <Fiora> I guess that makes sense with big complicated if statements and stuff.
19:55:06 <fizzie> Fiora: And now that I read this more closely, it seems as if "add/subtract with carry" meant just that; it's not a specifically conditional add/subtract, but instead it was listed as a "conditional instruction type" because it uses a condition (the carry flag) as an input.
19:55:37 <kmc> Fiora: wow this VPPERM instruction is pretty fancy
19:58:49 <fizzie> Fiora: As a minor additional note, the "conditional select" group includes also "conditional set", the x86 "SETcc" thing. (Except there's one variant to select between 0/1, and another to select between 0/-1, which I suppose could be nice for doing some conditional masks. Although maybe you don't need to do that many masks with the conditional select from two regs.)
19:59:17 <Fiora> ooooh. that's kinda nice. especially since I'm guessing it won't be like setcc and only work on 8-bit registers -_-
19:59:55 <fizzie> Right, it's full registers.
20:00:21 <boily> a chess programming wiki, that dabbles in assembly instructions. what has the world come to → http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/XOP#VPPERM
20:00:31 <kmc> yeah i saw that -- pretty awesome
20:00:41 <Fiora> chess programming stuff has loots of assembly and microoptimization things
20:00:44 <Fiora> it's kinda cool really :o
20:00:45 <fizzie> Hmm, there's conditional increment/invert/negate... oh, of course, those are just special cases of "conditional select and X" with the both source registers the same.
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20:02:20 <boily> fizzie: but it's only chess! why does it need that much microfiddling?
20:02:38 <boily> (it's still kinda cool. completely unobvious.)
20:02:47 <Fiora> um, well, like, you need to find fast ways to perform common operations like
20:02:56 <Fiora> how do you represent a board, or like, how do you calculate which squares can be attacked
20:03:16 <Fiora> since you need to generate moves fast (at any given node in your minimax tree) and have a heuristic that's evaluated fast
20:04:05 <boily> fizzie: autocompletion once again fail me.
20:07:21 <Bike> have you ever tried minmaxing anything? looking a dozen moves ahead in tic tac toe is hard, let alone chess
20:08:25 <boily> Bike: we did some minmaxing back in some random university class. it didn't work.
20:09:17 <Fiora> if I recall correctly a lot of the top chess programs do like. 5 million nodes per second or more
20:09:45 -!- Taneb has joined.
20:10:04 <Bike> ~it's exponential~
20:10:04 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
20:10:49 <Bike> So it stands to reason that you want to reduce the coefficient of those exponents as much as possible. Right? Right.
20:11:41 <boily> Bike: reducing dimensions is usually the first step → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_dimensionality
20:12:03 <Bike> well yeah, you wanna prune the tree too.
20:12:38 <boily> the soonest you remove things, the soonest you can arrive at the wrong answer.
20:13:04 <boily> (then prune the wrong answer off, and start again until the only thing left is the right answer.)
20:15:42 <fizzie> 98% of the participants of the "Introduction to AI" course I helped with minmaxed during the course programmng project.
20:16:57 <fizzie> Generally up to something like 4-6 ply.
20:17:15 <kmc> what game / problem?
20:18:08 <fizzie> It was a game that really was only used on the course -- http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/rules_en.html
20:18:39 <fizzie> Branching factor generally about 1.5-2x that of chess, from what I recall.
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20:20:17 <fizzie> Alpha-beta pruning (which maybe 80-90% did) with perfect move ordering in theory lets you look twice as far.
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20:22:53 <Fiora> Bike: I remember reading that they found that (up to a point) shorter, more exhaustive searches tended to be better than deeper, less branchy ones (for chess at least)
20:23:11 <Fiora> though that's with stuff like quiesence searches and check extensions
20:23:37 <fizzie> I seem to recall one submission where a last-minute change flipped the sign in an otherwise well-working minmax-with-alpha-beta search system, so that the AI in question made a pretty good effort to lose every game it played.
20:23:45 <Bike> mmhm yes *examines words while holding chin in thoughtful gesture*
20:24:12 * boily examines fizzie while holding Bike's chin in thoughtful gesture
20:24:50 <fizzie> boily: You made that sound like an adventure game action.
20:25:30 <Bike> sounds like a pretyt in-depth game if it understands all that.
20:28:01 <fizzie> Maybe just the first part.
20:28:02 <boily> ESOTER: Explore the dungeons of #esoteric! Battle the Dragon of Diæresis! Grab wonderous loot, and examine Finns!
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20:50:48 <olsner> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=zzo38
20:52:19 <Bike> tsk tsk, totally incccurate sample
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21:00:06 <Taneb> zzo was on South America!?
21:00:59 <Taneb> i'm tired and confused and don't know what is going on
21:01:42 <fizzie> fungot: The curiosity killed the bot.
21:01:43 <fungot> fizzie: i'm fnord back at the end of the sequence, then they're the same
21:09:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> http://nautil.us/issue/5/fame/the-twin-prime-hero it makes me unreasonably angry that they are still pulling this shit
21:10:18 -!- copumpkin has joined.
21:10:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KbZZ <- that's not good at all.
21:14:53 <fizzie> Opening the offending file in evince and printing it to a PDF file made it work. Computers!
21:18:00 <olsner> reminds me of some online checkin that produced PDFs that was only readable on one computer and that was not the computer that was connected to any printer
21:18:51 <olsner> ended up mailing each boarding card to the one who could read them, convert them to pdf, mail them again to the guy who could print
21:19:18 <fizzie> Oh, boarding passes, that's also always a fun.
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21:19:45 <fizzie> I think I once printed one at a hotel where the computer connected to their printer had no PDF viewer I could find.
21:20:05 <fizzie> Ended up opening it on the laptop and print-to-fileing to that one Microsoft things, whatsitcalled.
21:20:26 <fizzie> No, the more PDF-alike.
21:21:05 <fizzie> There's a "Microsoft XPS Document Writer" by default.
21:21:23 <fizzie> "The XPS Document Writer allows you to create .xps files using any program that you run on Windows. XPS documents look the same in print as they do on the screen. They are portable, like any other file that you can e–mail or transfer using a CD, DVD, universal serial bus (USB) drive, or network connection. They are also easy to share because you can view them on any computer where an XPS ...
21:21:29 <fizzie> ... viewer is installed, even if the computer does not have the same programs that you used to create the original documents."
21:21:36 <fizzie> Sounds quite a bit like PDF, doesn't it?
21:22:28 <fizzie> It's an ECMA standard and all.
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21:27:26 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: pulling what?
21:30:30 <Phantom_Hoover> reporting everything that happens in maths as the result of a lone genius
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21:34:09 <elliott> it basically was in this case to start with, wasn't it?
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22:22:21 <oerjan> i should tell zzo38 of my new invented spell to annihilate frogs.
22:22:44 <FreeFull> For some reason, in ARM ASM, xor is eor
22:22:56 <oerjan> you simply intone the magical words BREKEKEKEX XOR EAX, EAX
22:24:39 <FreeFull> I don't think that annihilates frogs
22:24:55 <kmc> FreeFull: Winnie the Pooh fans I assume
22:27:52 <oerjan> Eeyore! Eeyore! Cthulhu Fhtagn!
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22:29:40 <oerjan> oh that exists http://miscellany.lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/swanson-eeyore.jpg
22:31:19 <oerjan> my brekekekex xor eax, eax was not googleable, alas
22:31:57 <oerjan> i suppose aristophanes hasn't truly permeated geek culture yet.
22:32:31 <kmc> I got the joke!
22:32:38 <kmc> via Major-General's Song naturally.
22:33:56 <oerjan> there's always a joke, olsner
22:35:28 <FreeFull> When you don't see the joke, you are the joke
22:41:13 <Bike> arisophanes is on my reading list but keeps going down
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22:55:27 <HackEgo> 68 105 230 114 101 115 105 115
22:55:38 <oerjan> hm nothing funny going on there
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23:01:21 <FreeFull> Something funny going on there
23:01:30 -!- azaq23 has joined.
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23:08:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { ord } split //, $_);'
23:09:46 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/sh/bash/' bin/ord
23:10:28 <Bike> `run sh -c 'echo \n'
23:10:33 <Bike> `run bash -c 'echo \n'
23:10:44 <Bike> should i even ask
23:11:02 <oerjan> i vaguely recall it depends on whether it has terminal
23:11:12 <Bike> so that's a no
23:11:36 <oerjan> anyway, /bin/sh behaves in weird ways.
23:13:38 <Bike> `run sh -c 'echo -e "\n"'
23:17:55 <oerjan> `run ls -l `which sh` `which bash`
23:17:57 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 926536 Apr 10 2010 /bin/bash \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 4 Oct 14 2011 /bin/sh -> dash
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23:29:15 <oerjan> Koen__: is the account koen_ yours? it hasn't been used in a while.
23:29:37 <oerjan> (not the same as koen)
23:29:50 <Koen__> my irc client thinks it's fun to join a server, disconnect, then join again when I open it
23:30:09 <Koen__> maybe I should have Koen__ as my second choice and Koen_ as my third
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23:30:38 -!- Koen_ has joined.
23:30:57 <oerjan> ALSO YOU ARE EVADING THE QUESTION
23:31:07 <Koen_> also it doesn't allow to change nicks without logging out, as far as I know
23:31:25 <Koen_> but yeah I think it's mine
23:31:43 <oerjan> you might want to log in before it expires
23:32:05 <Koen_> hrm, not the usual password
23:32:38 <Koen_> I DON'T KNOW THE PASSWORD OKAY
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23:33:57 <Koen_> I was trying to sleep but apparently I need to write an interpreter for When before I can
23:36:50 <oerjan> Koen_: i think you can probably get the account dropped and then reregister it, it's even the "2 weeks expiry if not used more than 2 hours after registration" clause.
23:37:27 <Koen_> I'm sure I have used it less that 2 hours after registration
23:37:41 <oerjan> yes that's what i said.
23:38:02 <oerjan> and it would be expired anyhow under the 10 week clause.
23:38:18 <Koen_> it's definitely been more than ten weeks since I used it
23:38:22 <oerjan> (i recall it used to be 60 weeks?)
23:38:36 <Koen_> does that mean I'm not the one using it?
23:38:43 <oerjan> ...why are you agreeing with me? i already checked with NickServ.
23:39:10 <Koen_> I wasn't agreeing with you I just had trouble understanding what you said
23:39:22 <oerjan> i'm saying it _has_ expired, so you can get it dropped, thus reregister it with a password you know.
23:39:58 <Koen_> if I do that I'll never know what the password was, though
23:40:14 <oerjan> and this is a problem how? :P
23:40:34 <Koen_> I'll just put it on the "I'll do it tomorrow" list
23:40:44 <Koen_> it's a First-in Never-out data structure
23:41:11 <oerjan> ah one of those. is it stored in one of those write-only memories?
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23:41:36 <Koen_> it's still thursday here Phantom_Hoover
23:41:50 <kmc> Random Standard Time!
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23:48:02 <Koen_> oerjan: it's funny you should say that, cause I'm starting to think that When's strings *are* write-only
23:48:35 <Koen_> as in, there's a concatenation operator, but no substring or array subscript operator
23:56:36 <oerjan> the when specification doesn't actually specify the operators?
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