00:00:43 <oerjan> so there might well be more operators than those in the examples. otherwise the claim that strings make When TC seems unreasonable.
00:04:04 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:04:52 <Koen_> yeah, but the When specifications states that the operators should be fairly straightforward for anyone who's programmed in C-like languages
00:05:06 <Koen_> and it also says that the only types are integers, strings, and null
00:05:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
00:05:44 <Koen_> the only thing I could imagine would be a [] operator that would return a 1-char long string
00:07:12 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B13:00
00:08:11 <kmc> Bombay time was UTC+04:51
00:08:47 <kmc> i heard a rumor once of a "Riyadh Mean Solar Time" which was adjusted every day so that the sun was absolutely overhead at noon
00:09:04 <kmc> I think it's one of the few timezones that the Olson timezone database doesn't support :D
00:09:26 <Bike> what would riyadh need that for
00:10:02 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: did you know that random little bits of America opt out of daylight savings time
00:10:06 <kmc> isn't federalism great
00:10:11 <elliott> http://lists.globus.org/pipermail/gt-dev/2006-October/000844.html is the only thing google finds
00:11:34 <kmc> yeah Indiana alone has 11 tz database entries
00:11:35 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%E2%88%9200:25#Dublin_Mean_Time
00:12:08 <Bike> i know a programmer who lives in indiana and works with time sometimes. i've considered mailing him some of my antiepressants
00:12:16 <elliott> used in Lireland Standard Dates
00:12:59 <elliott> The most extensive study of time zone history in Indiana has been published in The American Atlas (1978) by Thomas G. Shanks, where the author identifies 345 areas in the state with a different time zone history for each.
00:13:19 <kmc> it must be cool to be definitively the world expert at that
00:13:57 <kmc> and Arizona also ignores DST, except for some but not all of the Native American territories which are kind-of-part-of the state
00:14:03 <elliott> that's the book that tzdata is based on or something, I think
00:14:11 <Bike> gosh, googling "history of time in saudi arabia" comes up with "history of the jews in saudi arabia". who cares about that
00:14:22 <kmc> "they all lived together happily ever after the end"
00:14:30 <kmc> http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html
00:14:34 <kmc> "The Long, Painful History of Time"
00:14:56 <oerjan> Koen_: well in C char is an integer type, maybe When works like that too.
00:15:29 <kmc> you could do 'a' * 'b' in Rust until a few weeks ago
00:15:30 <Koen_> okay I'll add a [ ] operator then
00:16:39 <oerjan> <Bike> what would riyadh need that for <-- the islamic calendar is afaiu based on direct astronomical observation rather than math, and the saudis are pretty big on islam.
00:17:22 <Bike> yes well the jewish calendar is lunar and i've never heard of jerusalem switching to lunar months
00:18:43 <Koen_> oerjan: hmm but in C, str[k] is a variable (an lvalue? am I using this term correctly?), it can be assigned
00:19:22 <kmc> it's an lvalue yeah
00:19:26 <Koen_> that gives it a different feel from the rest of When, in my opinion
00:19:53 <Koen_> I mean, it obviously has no rules attached as do other variables
00:20:49 <Bike> "Saudi Arabia uses the sighting method to determine the beginning of each month of the Hijri calendar. Since AH 1419 (1998/99) several official hilal sighting committees have been set up by the government to determine the first visual sighting of the lunar crescent at the beginning of each lunar month."
00:20:53 <Koen_> so that would either mean that the assignment operator doesn't trigger any rules when assigning to str[k], or that it triggers str's rules, even though it's not directly str which is assigned
00:21:07 <Bike> it's amazing how incredibly boring theology is most of the time
00:22:46 <Koen_> they could get creative and come up with a Praying@Home distributed theology
00:23:32 <Bike> islam has a long history of arguing over whether different kinds of theological arguments are worthwhile
00:26:14 <kmc> that's called 'pataphysics
00:28:38 <Koen_> hey any idea what "right-to-left" associativity means for UNARY operators?
00:29:04 <Koen_> or left-to-right for that matter - I just don't see what sense to make out of unary associativity
00:29:59 <Koen_> obviously !!x can only be interpreted as !(!x), right?
00:30:51 <Bike> associativity is a property of binary operators.
00:31:28 <Koen_> unless you've got some unary operator that can be indifferently postfix and infix, so !x! can be either of (!x)! and !(x!); but C precedence tables already list "postfix ++" and "infix ++" as two different operators with different priorities anyway
00:32:56 <Bike> what the heck is associativity for a 3-ary function
00:33:11 <Koen_> I think they talk about "pseudo-associativity rule" for heaps, or something
00:33:33 <Koen_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heap_%28mathematics%29
00:33:39 <Koen_> para-associative law
00:34:01 <Bike> foo(foo(a,b,c),d,e) = foo(a,foo(b,c,d),e)?
00:34:12 <Koen_> something like that
00:34:25 <Bike> php doesn't exist, sorry
00:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> well the point here is that it uses the wrong associativity for ternary if
00:37:03 <Bike> isn't it just that it parses a?b:c?d:e as ?:(?:(a,b,c),d,e)
00:37:47 <Koen_> who parses it like that
00:37:47 <elliott> that's associativity, though
00:37:49 <Bike> instead of ?:(a,b,?:(c,d,e)).
00:37:54 <Bike> is it? i don't know that's why i'm asking
00:37:57 <elliott> a + b + c being +(a,+(b,c)) or +(+(a,b),c)
00:38:13 <Koen_> nah that's math-associativity
00:38:15 <elliott> "how you put the parens in to combinations of operators"
00:39:13 <Koen_> my definition for an operator to be math-associative is "you don't need a computer-associativity rule about it"
00:39:20 <Bike> so, if ?: was associative, ?:(?:(a,b,c),d,e) = ?:(a,?:(b,c,d),e) = ?:(a,b,?:(c,d,e)).
00:39:23 <Bike> that would be weird.
00:40:51 <Bike> (i'm wondering about math associativity because i don't care about parsing)
00:41:37 <elliott> but Koen_ was talking about "right-to-left" associativity.
00:41:46 <elliott> so the topic changed completely somewhere here
00:42:05 <Koen_> well I was reading wikipedia's C operators precedence table
00:42:17 <Koen_> and one of the boxes happens to have only unary operators
00:42:37 <Koen_> and they are specified to be right-to-left associative
00:42:45 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> (i'm wondering about math associativity because i don't care about parsing)
00:43:33 <Bike> then why did you say "n-ary where n > 1"
00:44:34 <Koen_> Bike: apparently e = a < d ? a++ : a = d is parsed differently in C and C++
00:47:45 <oerjan> Koen_: floating point + isn't math-associative
00:48:56 <Koen_> is there any language where + isn't commutative because you can add anything with anything but the return type depends of the order of the arguments?
00:49:09 <Bike> somebody else today was confused and annoyed by generating the sequence "1.2, 1.4, 1.6000001, 1.800001" or something. it gets so old
00:49:18 <Bike> Koen_: any language where + works on strings
00:49:37 <Bike> well, no, that's just noncommutativity, not what you said. sorry
00:50:21 <oerjan> > [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:50:22 <lambdabot> [1.2,1.4,1.5999999,1.7999998,1.9999998,2.1999998,2.3999999,2.6,2.8,3.0,3.2,...
00:51:44 <oerjan> lambdabot: nice recovery there
00:52:22 <oerjan> > drop 7 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:52:23 <lambdabot> [2.6,2.8,3.0,3.2,3.4,3.6000001,3.8000002,4.0,4.2,4.3999996,4.5999994,4.7999...
00:52:45 <oerjan> > drop 17 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:52:46 <lambdabot> [4.5999994,4.799999,4.999999,5.199999,5.3999987,5.5999985,5.7999983,5.99999...
00:53:24 <oerjan> > drop 24 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:53:24 <lambdabot> [5.999998,6.199998,6.3999977,6.5999975,6.7999973,6.999997,7.199997,7.399996...
00:53:25 <Bike> > drop 2439 [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:53:26 <lambdabot> [488.97592,489.1759,489.3759,489.57587,489.77585,489.97583,490.1758,490.375...
00:54:00 <Fiora> > drop 50000 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
00:54:01 <lambdabot> [49.974503,49.975502,49.9765,49.9775,49.9785,49.9795,49.9805,49.9815,49.982...
00:54:09 <Fiora> > drop 50000000 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
00:54:13 <lambdabot> [16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16...
00:54:23 <Bike> "well, that's a good place to stop"
00:54:30 <elliott> 16384 certainly is a number.
00:54:35 <Fiora> > drop 50000000 [0, 0.001 :: Double ..]
00:54:38 <lambdabot> [49999.99988652039,50000.000886520385,50000.00188652038,50000.00288652038,5...
00:55:17 <oerjan> > filter (\x -> 2 >= length (break (=='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:55:18 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[a0]'
00:55:27 <Bike> i was about to ask how to do that.
00:55:31 <Bike> thank god for nerds
00:55:51 <oerjan> > filter (\x -> 2 >= length (dropWhile (/='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:55:52 <lambdabot> [1.2,1.4,2.6,2.8,3.0,3.2,3.4,4.0,4.2,18.8,19.0,19.2,74.8,75.0,75.2,940.6,94...
00:55:57 <lambdabot> (a -> b -> c) -> [a] -> [b] -> [c]
00:56:12 <Bike> yeah, whatever, don't remember enough stdlib
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00:56:30 <oerjan> > drop 10 $ filter (\x -> 2 >= length (dropWhile (/='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:56:31 <lambdabot> [19.0,19.2,74.8,75.0,75.2,940.6,940.8,941.0,941.2,941.4,1283.1,1283.3,1556....
00:56:52 <oerjan> > drop 20 $ filter (\x -> 2 >= length (dropWhile (/='.') (show x)) ) [1.2, 1.4 :: Float ..]
00:56:53 <lambdabot> [1283.1,1283.3,1556.2,1556.4,1829.5,2068.4,2068.6,2170.9,2171.1,2273.4,2273...
00:57:05 <oerjan> looks like it keeps happening
00:57:27 <elliott> I warned you about floating point, oerjan.
00:57:36 <Bike> hi shut up elliott
00:58:03 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v elliott.
00:58:04 <Bike> @hoogle a -> [a] -> Int
00:58:04 <lambdabot> Data.List elemIndex :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> Maybe Int
00:58:04 <lambdabot> Data.List elemIndices :: Eq a => a -> [a] -> [Int]
00:58:04 <lambdabot> Network.BufferType buf_concat :: BufferOp a -> [a] -> a
00:58:10 <elliott> why thank you, oerjan. I'm glad you appreciate my jokes so much.
00:58:15 <Bike> way to do the exact opposite of shutting up!
00:58:15 <Fiora> I think "it keeps happening" is an appropriate response to the one where it keeps giving the same number xD
00:58:38 <doesthiswork> elliot: is that a sweet bro and hella jeff reference?
01:00:07 <oerjan> now elliott is impersonating me with his op powers? outrageous!
01:00:58 <Bike> > let list = [0, 0.001 :: Double..] in elemIndex True (zipWith (==) list ((\(a:b) -> b) list)) -- i'm the haskellest
01:00:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:25: parse error on input `Double..'
01:01:07 <Bike> > let list = [0, 0.001 :: Double ..] in elemIndex True (zipWith (==) list ((\(a:b) -> b) list))
01:01:33 <Bike> > let list = [0, 0.001 :: Float ..] in elemIndex True (zipWith (==) list ((\(a:b) -> b) list))
01:02:10 <Bike> > drop 1676250 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
01:02:11 <lambdabot> [1649.6229,1649.6239,1649.6249,1649.6259,1649.6268,1649.6278,1649.6288,1649...
01:02:28 <Bike> > drop 16764250 [0, 0.001 :: Float ..]
01:02:30 <lambdabot> [16383.998,16383.999,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384.0,16384....
01:02:38 <Bike> i'm the best programmer; you're welcome.
01:05:10 <Bike> floats have what, five bit exponent? i can't remember this stuff
01:05:23 <oerjan> it's the mantissa that matters, i think
01:06:02 <Bike> so where'd fourteen come from!
01:06:20 <Bike> or did you just remember that 16384 is a power of two
01:06:58 <oerjan> although i could have guessed it too.
01:07:29 <oerjan> > 16384 + 2^^(-10) :: Float
01:07:34 <oerjan> > 16384 + 2^^(-9) :: Float
01:08:24 <oerjan> 14+10 = 24 which is presumably around how many bits of mantissa there is.
01:09:15 <oerjan> so once it reaches 2^14, the 0.001 doesn't contain any bits large enough to affect the other number when added to it.
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01:10:12 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
01:10:19 <lambdabot> class (Real a, Fractional a) => RealFrac a where
01:10:19 <lambdabot> properFraction :: (Integral b) => a -> (b,a)
01:10:19 <lambdabot> truncate, round, ceiling, floor :: (Integral b) => a -> b
01:10:39 <oerjan> hm what is that class again
01:11:13 <oerjan> oh it is RealFloat, @src just doesn't have it :(
01:12:25 <oerjan> > floatDigits (undefined :: Float)
01:14:23 <oerjan> http://lambda.haskell.org/platform/doc/current/ghc-doc/libraries/haskell2010-1.1.1.0/Prelude.html#g:7 and scroll down a bit.
01:15:24 <Bike> > floatRange (undefined :: Float)
01:15:47 <Bike> eight. well i guess that makes sense.
01:16:02 <oerjan> http://lambda.haskell.org/platform/doc/current/ghc-doc/libraries/haskell2010-1.1.1.0/Prelude.html#t:RealFloat found the right anchor
01:19:36 <oerjan> atan2 somehow feels a little out of place in that class :P
01:21:06 <Bike> huh, does the default implementation use decode or something
01:22:57 <oerjan> hm it actually uses isNegativeZero.
01:23:38 <oerjan> to select the proper branch
01:24:14 <oerjan> if it didn't bother with that, Floating and Ord would be sufficient.
01:25:25 <oerjan> which means it would probably end up in RealFloat anyway, as the largest class subclassing both.
01:29:57 <Sgeo> I need to resume watching The IT Crowd
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02:06:50 <Sgeo> Code that I have written has run on ... maybe millions of computers
02:07:19 <Sgeo> Hmm, maybe not as many
02:07:24 <Sgeo> More than thousands I think, at least
02:07:51 <Bike> http://petewarden.com/2013/09/27/why-openheatmap-is-banned-from-github/ eesh.
02:54:45 <Sgeo> Somehow I don't think this is valid HTML anymore http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/TheProject.html
02:56:31 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/nextid.html
02:56:46 <Bike> "At present, it is likely that NEXTID will be dropped from the HTML specification, since it is not terribly useful. You are therefore advised against wasting your time reading the rest of this page!" "Last Update: 5 January 1998
03:02:46 <oerjan> Sgeo the web historian
03:08:19 <kmc> which code sgo
03:08:21 <kmc> re millions
03:09:21 <Sgeo> Any Javascript code that I've written on the job..
03:09:48 <Sgeo> The ISP I work for is quite popular
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06:41:32 <fizzie> Hmp. Python argparse -- with a single positional argument with nargs='+' and optional arguments a, b and c -- can extract ['foo', 'bar', 'baz'] out of "-a x -b y -c z foo bar baz" or "foo bar baz -a x -b y -c z" just fine, but can't seem to cope with "-a x foo -b y bar -c z baz". As in, all positional arguments must be in a single group.
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09:17:40 <Taneb> In 24 hours I will be in a flat in York
09:25:50 <fizzie> Is it almost like New York except old?
09:26:47 <Taneb> You can even by shirts that say...
09:29:59 <Taneb> So, I'm rather nervous
09:31:00 <fizzie> Just imagine the flat has no clothes on, I hear that helps.
09:31:49 <Taneb> I am not sure if I can picture a flat /with/ clothes on
09:44:00 <Taneb> Why is elliott voiced
09:44:08 <Taneb> Why not Gregor or Roujo
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10:06:51 <Taneb> I'm working on Rummy mixed with Breakout
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10:34:07 <Taneb> I've been spontaneously screaming "No!" more often than usual recently
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11:20:40 <Taneb> Is there a term for something like a queuestack but the two ends are accessible in completely different ways and it is tricky to get something from one end to the other?
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16:11:16 <HackEgo> reynir: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:11:38 <reynir> wow, what a welcome :)
16:11:48 <Taneb> Wait till you see...
16:11:54 <HackEgo> reynir: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:12:22 <reynir> I have been working on a compiler targeting brainfuck
16:12:57 <Taneb> What does it compile?
16:13:30 <reynir> Right now only simple arithmetic expressions with addition, subtraction and multiplication
16:13:47 <reynir> It's written in Coq, so it's a certified compiler
16:14:20 <reynir> Here's the project https://github.com/reynir/Brainfuck
16:14:45 <Taneb> I feel like I know your nick from somewhere...
16:15:19 <reynir> Could be from 0x10c. I recognize a few names from there
16:16:16 <reynir> I was wondering if you have any tips for structuring programs / compiling to BF
16:17:25 <Taneb> And I'm gonna have to go now, got to pack my computer
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16:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> reynir, i want to make fun of you for liking 0x10c but my heart's not in it right now
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16:43:47 <Phantom_Hoover> reynir, OK now I'm lightly intoxicated, and you were a fool to believe notch would ever manage to stick it through with another game
16:44:07 <reynir> that was quick, 12 minutes
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16:45:31 <reynir> No, I mean you're quick to get intoxicated
16:45:40 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
16:47:24 <olsner> "[...] (in Hindi): "Don't pretend you are studying farsi/looks like farsi to me""
16:51:12 <reynir> I just found this http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck_algorithms
16:52:57 <reynir> Source is arithmetic expressions with plus, minus, and multiplication. The target is brainfuck.
16:53:19 <reynir> So the source language is very simple and not very interesting
16:53:47 <shikhin> Can I get some sort of a URL, project website, repo, anythign? :P
16:54:10 <reynir> oh, sure. https://github.com/reynir/Brainfuck
16:54:44 <reynir> Yea, both directions are infinite
16:55:23 <reynir> It's easier when you don't have to deal with special cases all the time (i.e. going beyond the tape)
16:57:25 <reynir> It could be awesome to compile a turing complete language eventually
16:58:00 <AnotherTest> what about a brainfuck to brainfuck compiler
16:59:13 <reynir> Yea, I was considering doing optimizations and prove their correctness
16:59:35 <AnotherTest> Is the idea to have a relatively low-level language, that is which uses a tape rather than variables?
17:00:03 <AnotherTest> or do you want do something more similar to "C subset to brainfuck"
17:01:37 <reynir> Hm, not sure. Right now I have proven some stack primitives (push, add, dup, ...) and just compile the expressions down to those
17:02:21 <reynir> So I guess the answer is the first and maybe the second. So, develop a theory for a simple stack machine and compile down to that
17:03:31 <AnotherTest> @tell oerjan Well, it seems logical to call those cosets obtained by right multiplication the right cosets. These are usually called left cosets though.
17:04:13 <AnotherTest> reynir: Yes, the stack based language could be used as an intermediate language I guess.
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17:30:09 <boily> back from lunch, and I see someone else `relcommed in my absence.
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17:42:24 <metasepia> CYUL 271700Z VRB03KT 15SM FEW030 BKN042 18/10 A3029 RMK SC1SC4 SLP257
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17:46:39 <Phantom_Hoover> boily, can you not just look out of your window to see the weather
17:47:02 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: too much light outside.
17:49:15 <Koen_> does codu discards logs when they're too old?
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17:49:31 <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :(
17:52:27 <Koen_> good, I feel much better
17:53:27 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: good idea.
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18:04:53 <metasepia> EFHK 271750Z 36006KT 9999 FEW040 05/04 Q1008 NOSIG
18:04:58 <fizzie> (It's dark out there.)
18:07:36 -!- Bike has joined.
18:09:00 <fizzie> Today I drove a silly little car around.
18:09:35 <ion> Were there thirty clowns in it?
18:10:20 <fizzie> No, arguably just one.
18:11:05 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Fortwo <- that thing. (A rental.)
18:11:52 <ion> Was it yellow? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Smart_ForTwo_Passion_convertible_--_04-22-2011_2.jpg | http://pbfcomics.com/258/
18:13:19 <fizzie> No, it was branded with the rental company (Sixt) logo; it's their cheapest thing.
18:14:45 <ion> Is the name a Douglas Adams reference?
18:14:57 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Sure. Does that somehow make "silly little" not applicable?
18:15:54 <fizzie> Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
18:16:16 <boily> that was an MIB3 reference.
18:16:25 <fizzie> They don't sell the electric version in Finland, which is a shame. (Not that I'm in the market for a car, though.)
18:16:31 <ion> I disagree.
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18:25:39 <kmc> apparently WebKit doesn't do kerning / ligatures unless you put "text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;" in the CSS
18:25:51 <kmc> "text-rendering: not-shitty;"
18:27:29 <elliott> tries to make the machine code as close to english text as possible
18:27:33 <boily> some day, we'll observe a merge between LaTeX and HTML.
18:27:48 <Bike> making machine code alphanumeric is neat.
18:28:58 <boily> there should be a mapping from hexadecimal to carefully chosen consonnants and vowels, like how 0 becomes “o”, and so on.
18:29:13 <kmc> http://www.phrack.org/issues.html?issue=57&id=15 "Writing ia32 alphanumeric shellcodes"
18:29:16 <boily> of course, 9 should be “b”, so that a NOP slide on x86 becomes “bobobobobobo” :D
18:29:54 <Bike> plus there was that one paper about making programs that look enough like english text to fool most programs.
18:29:57 <Bike> with words and stuff.
18:30:37 <Fiora> Bike: oooh, that sounds really cool
18:30:45 <Fiora> that's like shell code except crazier
18:31:46 <Bike> www.cs.jhu.edu/~sam/ccs243-mason.pdf maybe this
18:34:39 <kmc> so awesome
18:34:42 <kmc> thanks Bike
18:36:30 <kmc> also cool, JHU
18:36:42 <Bike> that's me, your source for random papers on random subjects
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18:37:18 <kmc> my friend was a physics grad student there until he "temporarily" moved in with his girlfriend in San Francisco "for the summer" and then got a job and called them to say he's never coming back
18:39:39 <fizzie> Why does an "avconv"-generated MP3 sound glitchy and print things like "[mp3float @ 0x7f3cb0606400]big_values too big" when seeking with mplayer?
18:39:46 <kmc> i love that error message
18:39:48 <kmc> big values too big
18:40:10 <kmc> in fact when I first saw it I sent it to this channel
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18:41:40 <olsner> might be a bug in the sideband demultiplexer
18:41:57 <Bike> `pastelog big_values
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18:42:05 <fizzie> Plays fine with vlc, FWIW.
18:42:42 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.20705
18:42:45 <fizzie> (Background information: I doubt the car plays FLACs. Though who knows.)
18:45:04 <kmc> does it play Ogg Vorbis?
18:45:08 <kmc> surprisingly many things do
18:45:26 <kmc> after all it has free implementations and no patent encumberance, so it's easy to add :)
18:45:43 <fizzie> It might, but it sounds like too much effort to make an extra round-trip to verify that.
18:45:49 <kmc> I've used Vorbis for many years as my standard format for encoding stuff to play on various devices
18:46:00 <kmc> because it's smaller than MP3 and encoders are easy to get
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18:46:43 <fizzie> We won't have time to listen to a stickful of MP3s on this trip anyway, so I'll go with what's known to work this time.
18:47:15 <boily> how long is a stickful?
18:47:29 <fizzie> (Having said that, it'll probably turn out it barfs on a variable-bitrate MP3.)
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18:55:11 <boily> does frink support mp3/km?
18:55:57 <fizzie> Warning: undefined symbol "mp3".
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19:59:21 <Bike> http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/39056/fnins-07-00011-r2/image_m/fnins-07-00011-g001.jpg such fonts
20:01:44 <boily> what about the fonts?
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20:14:09 <boily> (0.13 on October 11!)
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20:53:11 <kmc> woo, found and fixed a refcounting bug
20:53:20 <kmc> boo, C++ libraries that do manual refcounting without smart pointers
20:53:55 <Bike> b-but... delete this... D:
20:54:45 <lambdabot> AnotherTest said 3h 51m 13s ago: Well, it seems logical to call those cosets obtained by right multiplication the right cosets. These are usually called left cosets though.
20:55:17 <kmc> it does indeed have essentially void unref() const { if (atomic_dec(&fRefCnt) == 1) delete this; }
20:55:26 <kmc> I'll let the sages debate whether "delete this" should be allowed within a const method.
20:55:27 <oerjan> @tell anothertest I consider both conventions completely logical, and have a hard time seeing how someone could consider one of them much more natural than the other.
20:56:06 <kmc> also, like, decrementing the refcount certainly wouldn't be, but it's declared "mutable"
20:56:32 <kmc> I guess one needs the ability to retain and release objects by const pointer, but still, ewwwwwww
20:57:42 <boily> the reason why me and valgrind have a hate-hate-hate relationship: I'm completely lost when it comes to deleting stuff in C++.
20:58:30 <oerjan> @tell After all, you either get a coset by left multiplication of a point by a subgroup, or by left multiplication of a subgroup by a point.
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20:59:02 <Bike> Is there a better way to clear that than /nick after
20:59:15 <olsner> I suspect delete this; is undefined behavior
20:59:21 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest After all, you either get a coset by left multiplication of a point by a subgroup, or by left multiplication of a subgroup by a point.
20:59:40 <olsner> (but probably of the undefined-behavior-that-always-works kind)
21:02:02 <kmc> olsner: even in a non-virtual method which doesn't call any virtual methods or access any instance data after "delete this"?
21:02:20 <kmc> it might very well still be undefined, but I don't think it *has* to be
21:02:53 <kmc> boily: what about it specifically?
21:03:29 <boily> kmc: either I leak inordinate amounts of memory, or I segfault trying to be over-eager freeing memory back.
21:03:41 <boily> I still haven't found the sweet spot of understanding what I'm doing.
21:04:16 <boily> in any case, time to BBQ. or something.
21:04:21 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
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21:05:53 <oerjan> let's just assume after will appreciate eir group theory lesson, if e ever logs on again.
21:06:02 <kmc> @tell boily C++ feels vastly more like a high level language if you use reference-counting smart pointers as much as possible
21:07:00 <Bike> what about algebra
21:07:17 <reynir> You are talking algebra?
21:09:06 <reynir> Is it related to the topic?
21:09:39 <Bike> nothing is related to the /topic
21:10:31 <oerjan> Bike: boily is related to the topic.
21:10:39 <Fiora> kmc: *reads wikipedia page on smart pointers* huh, I had no idea std::unique_ptr was a thing
21:10:43 <Fiora> that's really cool
21:10:56 <Phantom_Hoover> last episode of it crowd is good; things chris o'dowd can do to his own face are awful
21:11:01 <Bike> oerjan: no, boily is related to roujo
21:11:41 <oerjan> reynir: no, it's just an old discussion that hadn't quite ended yet, so i and AnotherTest are sending lambdabot messages back and forth because we're not here at the same time.
21:12:30 <kmc> Fiora: and one of the big ideas in Rust is "what if we had something like unique_ptr, but the compiler actually enforces safe usage in every case"
21:12:44 <Fiora> oh, is there a reason it's not safe?
21:13:09 <oerjan> reynir: briefly, it's about how mathematicians haven't argued which kind of coset should be called left and which should be called right, and i and AnotherTest don't agree on whether there is an obviously correct convention (i don't think there is).
21:13:10 <kmc> a few reasons
21:13:21 <kmc> you can coerce it to a plain pointer / reference easily
21:13:36 <kmc> and you would do this when you want to call a function and pass it the object without transferring ownership
21:13:48 <kmc> but that function could stash away that raw pointer and use it after the object has been freed
21:13:56 <olsner> Fiora: "it's c++, of course it's not safe!"
21:14:38 <oerjan> Bike: no, boily is related to pouti.
21:14:48 <kmc> C++ kinda-sorta tries to be memory safe using a combination of language features and convention
21:14:53 <Bike> oerjan: i thought it was just because you multiply(element,other-element)
21:14:59 <kmc> and it totally falls over when people just treat it as "C with some extra junk" which is what they usually do
21:15:07 <Bike> of course i can never get cosets straight anyway ;_;
21:15:52 <Bike> kmc: "so rust is like C with uniqueness types added"
21:16:20 <kmc> Fiora: another reason is that there's no mutability guarantee; you can uniquely own something and yet some function you call mutates it
21:16:44 <oerjan> Bike: well the thing is, should the direction be decided by the side of the element or by the side of the other-element?
21:17:01 <kmc> in Rust, the root of an ownership tree decides globally whether that tree of objects is mutable or immutable
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21:17:26 <kmc> (the root is either a local variable or a garbage-collected box)
21:17:32 <Bike> oerjan: the element, since the other element is written related to a capital letter, whi ch is more improtant and central!!
21:17:52 <kmc> there's this issue in C++ (although I don't know that it really relates to unique pointers) where you modify a datastructure as you're iterating over it, and everything blows up
21:18:24 <Bike> i guess that makes sense though, insofar as terminology debates make sense
21:18:27 <Bike> (god i say "insofar" a lot)
21:18:46 <kmc> Rust prevents this because the "give me an iterator" method, and the iterator struct, will "borrow" the datastructure as an immutable borrowed pointer, and nobody else can mutate something while an immutable borrowed pointer to it exists
21:18:56 <Fiora> Insofar sounds like the name of a city, or a company
21:18:57 <kmc> (which is enforced statically, except in the case of those GC'd boxes)
21:18:58 <Fiora> Insofar Industries
21:19:17 <Bike> Fiora: i'll note that down for my cyborg ant production facilities shell corp
21:19:22 <Bike> kmc: sounds cool tho
21:19:24 <oerjan> Bike: AnotherTest thinks the opposite of you :)
21:19:35 <oerjan> and i think neither is obviously correct.
21:19:37 <Bike> oerjan: well anothertest is wrong. i hope this solves the problem
21:20:01 <oerjan> Bike: excellent, now go fix peace in the middle-east.
21:20:01 <Bike> i don't think i know how you'd verify that statically off the top of my head but that's probably just because i'm not thinking about it
21:20:25 <kmc> first you hire as many PL PhDs and grad students as you can
21:20:52 <olsner> Bike: just put it in the types and ... infer stuff
21:21:04 <Bike> i think i have insufficient resources for this algorithm
21:21:32 <kmc> Rust is neat cause it's a new language designed by people who have actually been paying attention to programming languages research in the past 40 years
21:22:30 <kmc> this confuses some Haskellers who assume that anyone in that position would produce Haskell exactly
21:22:43 <Bike> i hear haskell was set down from on high
21:24:27 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc can you... not use rust as a vantage point from which to complain about haskellers
21:25:41 <kmc> i don't do it that much
21:25:59 <kmc> I'm annoyed at how many Haskellers look at Rust and find one thing they don't like and immediately declare it to be garbage
21:26:06 <kmc> as though Haskell is so perfect in comparison
21:26:29 <kmc> they're both cool languages trying to do difficult (and vastly different) things and they both have their share of flaws
21:27:28 <kmc> but yes perhaps I should not just bring this up when nobody is advancing this view
21:27:56 <kmc> PH is so easily annoyed by me complaining about things ^__^
21:29:21 <oerjan> kmc: *- by me complaining about things
21:29:53 * kmc hugs Fiora
21:30:13 <kmc> are you annoyed by the damn kids who won't get off your lawn?
21:30:31 <oerjan> PH isn't old enough to have a lawn, or a cane to wave.
21:31:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i am if they are hugging each other or complaining about haskellers
21:31:28 <fizzie> oerjan, on the other hand, probably has several lawns and canes.
21:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you're married, that makes you like twenty years older
21:32:17 <oerjan> i don't think i have a cane. maybe stored away somewhere. and i don't have my own lawn.
21:32:35 <kmc> i have a back yard but not a front lawn
21:32:47 <kmc> the front of my house consists of some stairs, and a tree which produces rain all the time, even when it is not raining
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21:33:49 <oerjan> having your own lawn may be rare when you don't live on the ground floor.
21:33:59 <Fiora> is PH jealous he doesn't get a hug
21:34:10 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
21:35:16 <fizzie> We have an "offering stone" in the yard-like thing between these two apartment buildings.
21:35:40 <oerjan> is that offering as in sacrifice?
21:35:47 <kmc> that's so metal
21:35:55 <fizzie> Though the sacrifices were bits of grain, AIUI.
21:35:55 <kmc> have you offered anything
21:36:00 <oerjan> "ofring" is norwegian for sacrifice.
21:36:00 <kmc> less metal
21:36:06 <kmc> (unless they are steel-cut oats?)
21:36:16 <fizzie> It's just a stone with a barely noticeable groove in it.
21:36:21 <kmc> oerjan: what if i put some grass turf on my balcony
21:36:23 <Bike> like, an oat cut up with steel?
21:36:30 <oerjan> while offer is more often "tilbud".
21:36:34 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel-cut_oats
21:37:00 <kmc> used to make a thing that's like oatmeal but people will tell you it's so much better
21:37:32 <fizzie> http://www.nba.fi/en/cultural_environment/archaeological_heritage/maintenance/maintained_sites/rapola/cupmarked_stones <- one of those except lot less obvious than what's in the picture.
21:37:41 <Phantom_Hoover> are you complaining about pretentious middle class people kmc
21:37:59 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You put some grain on the stone, and I think then you're pretty much done.
21:38:01 <Bike> great, now i want a rock to offer blood to.
21:38:05 <kmc> fertility cults eh?
21:39:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: I think that'd be bad form.
21:39:44 <Bike> the spirits usually come and grab food pretty fast, with their animal avatars
21:39:44 <fizzie> I'm certainly no expert.
21:39:56 <fizzie> But maybe I should put some of my breakfast oatmeal on the stone just in case it'd help.
21:42:13 * oerjan is reminded of this stone from the island my mother was from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:D%C3%B8nna_marble_phallus.jpg
21:43:10 <Bike> doesn't look much like a penis honestly
21:43:33 <olsner> oerjan: "tilbud" in norwegian is quite confusing, over here "tillbud" usually means accident or some kind of threatening or dangerous event
21:44:02 <olsner> (it can also mean something like warning, correction or order)
21:45:24 <Bike> no that was the only joke in there
21:46:05 <Bike> humorologist jim wazowski quoted a p-value of .0007 "that the joke was really just that shitty", according to sources
21:46:09 <oerjan> Bike: i vaguely recall you're not the first person to think it doesn't look much like one. but i'm sure the tourist board violently disagrees.
21:46:35 <Bike> they should erect a sign laying out their argument, with pictures
21:47:38 <oerjan> Heh heh heh, you said 'erect'
21:48:23 <fizzie> You can't spell "rectangle" without having an erection. Wait, that's not how it goes.
21:48:30 <kmc> well that's the thing
21:48:38 <kmc> it's stone and sticking straight up, so one would interpret it as an erect penis
21:48:52 <kmc> but the proportions would be quite unusual (though not totally outside phenotypic variation)
21:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the brilliant joke about which Bike was scoffing was that it would appear to be a disproportionately short one
21:49:51 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> You can't spell "rectangle" without having an erection. Wait, that's not how it goes.
21:49:59 <HackEgo> 1109) <fizzie> You can't spell "rectangle" without having an erection. Wait, that's not how it goes.
21:50:08 <oerjan> hm there's some lag somewhere.
21:50:35 <HackEgo> 463) <itidus20> combinatronics seems to be the mathematics chasing buddha's tail <itidus20> yeah.. he was a smart monkey that buddha
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21:51:40 <oerjan> i understand the buddha outsmarted monkeys.
21:52:55 <kmc> fizzie: YKINMK
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21:56:22 <fizzie> I had to Urban Dictionary that.
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22:01:28 <HackEgo> audioPhil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:02:15 <kmc> fizzie: and now you know what it means!
22:02:21 <oerjan> @tell AnotherTest <AnotherTest> underload to bf, has that been done yet? <-- yes, fungot's implementation used to be bf before fizzie wrote one directly in befunge.
22:02:21 <fungot> oerjan: it sounds like
22:02:34 <kmc> haha 'combinatronics'
22:02:36 <kmc> I miss itidus
22:03:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i am told i scared him away also and i can believe that
22:04:03 -!- audioPhil has left ("http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.").
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22:04:42 <olsner> fungot: what sounds like what?
22:04:42 <fungot> olsner: not me. it's some other structure, are special in cl" helps me understand scheme better
22:06:01 <Bike> muscles uses hexagonal tiling. neato.
22:07:27 <Phantom_Hoover> hexagonal tiling is the default if you squish a bunch of round things together...
22:07:28 <oerjan> <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :( <-- s/\/log\///
22:08:15 <kmc> cool, apparently it is now very easy to write Rust programs which don't use the runtime system http://ix.io/8fH
22:08:29 <kmc> #[lang = "exchange_malloc"] says "this function implements the language feature of allocating ~-boxes"
22:08:43 <kmc> and you can provide such implementations just for the language features you use (here, no GC, no threads, etc)
22:08:49 <oerjan> @tell Koen_ <Koen_> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-11-12 doesn't show here :( <-- s/log\///
22:10:24 <fizzie> @tell AnotherTest In my defense, the bf version -- under fungot's time limits -- barely managed to run (foo)S.
22:10:24 <fungot> fizzie: what do you mean because of maclisp? i realized it at 4 am last night
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22:11:52 <fizzie> kmc: Someone on ##asm was trying to port https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot to x86-64.
22:12:00 <kmc> interesting
22:12:09 <kmc> they should port it to Rust 0.8 (released yesterday) and ditch zero.rs, first
22:12:21 <kmc> (zero.rs was a workaround for the days when you had to implement *every* lang item)
22:12:53 <fizzie> This was the other day, so the querent is long gone, sadly.
22:13:40 <fizzie> Also I made a rust/bare metal "joke" I'm not very proud of.
22:14:06 <FreeFull> You could make a bear metal joke
22:14:14 <kmc> wow "querent" is quite the word
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22:17:45 <myname> kmc: oh, zero.rs isn't needed anymore?
22:18:09 <kmc> myname: apparently yes
22:18:10 <oerjan> rust, now abolishing zero
22:18:14 <kmc> I'm just learning this in #rust
22:18:20 <olsner> fizzie: is ##asm any fun?
22:18:37 <Bike> mumbles about getting banned
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22:18:53 <myname> kmc: yeah, i read you there pretty often
22:19:06 <kmc> myname: I might port one of my toy no-libc C programs to Rust
22:19:47 <kmc> it renders flame fractals and serves them from an embedded webserver
22:19:58 <kmc> multithreaded renderer
22:20:11 <kmc> and it embeds its own machine code in the flame fractals in a cutesy way
22:20:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: too far = London?
22:20:22 <myname> oh, rust 0.8 is already in the repos
22:20:40 <Bike> that's pretty far
22:20:40 <myname> and is actually much smaller than 0.7, wow
22:20:48 <Bike> is it sexual roleplay...
22:21:28 <kmc> 0.8 was released yesterday
22:22:08 <kmc> also maybe I should write a not-ridiculous flame fractal renderer using Rust and GLSL
22:22:30 <Bike> and without libc
22:22:44 <myname> rust without libc shouldn't be that hard
22:22:49 <kmc> my *other* weekend project that I also won't get around to doing this weekend is to build a public-key stream cipher based on Dual_EC_DRBG
22:23:03 <kmc> myname: yeah they're telling me it's easy
22:23:50 <myname> kmc: do you have an eye on how hard it is to make bindings for existing c libraries?
22:23:58 <kmc> a little bit
22:24:03 <myname> last time i had something to do with it was 0.5
22:24:09 <kmc> it's pretty easy: http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-ffi.html
22:24:09 <myname> it was crappy back then
22:24:24 <kmc> my job involves a lot of bindings to C libraries but I haven't made one from scratch yet
22:24:28 <kmc> and they are big, weird C libraries
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22:25:19 <myname> well, i'm interested in termbox atm
22:25:26 <myname> should be pretty straightforward
22:25:34 <myname> biggest deal may be the struct
22:26:05 <kmc> yeah, there's no way to import a struct definition to Rust :/
22:26:08 <kmc> not in the language itself I mean
22:26:14 <kmc> there are bindings generators; I haven't used them
22:26:28 <myname> you have to make an identical struct
22:27:19 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, wait are you going to make an electricsheep that works in 1080p
22:27:31 <kmc> in realtime yes
22:27:33 <kmc> I sort of made one back in 2007
22:27:35 <kmc> but failed to release it
22:27:49 <fizzie> olsner: I'd say generally not. But then, they can't all be "#esoteric"s, you know?
22:27:51 <kmc> even a 2007 graphics card could render decent looking flame fractals at 4096 x 4096 x 60fps
22:27:59 <kmc> it's a very GPU-able algorithm
22:28:40 <elliott> frames per second, the third dimension
22:29:16 <Bike> time is just another spatial dimension, maaaaaan.
22:29:28 <Bike> (so frequency must be one too,, like how spatial patterns are)
22:31:53 * oerjan hits Bike with a metric signature
22:33:36 <oerjan> Bike: the time dimension has opposite sign to the space dimensions in the signature
22:34:26 <olsner> would it if it's a spatial dimension?
22:42:57 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
22:45:28 <olsner> fungot: what's your metric signature?
22:45:29 <fungot> olsner: i'm an idiot"? why not just
22:45:51 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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23:05:33 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:09:30 <olsner> fizzie: it's certainly no #esoteric so far
23:10:08 <fizzie> olsner: "So far" is a reasonably representative sample. (But occasionally there are still interesting things.)
23:16:28 -!- Bike has joined.
23:17:41 <oerjan> Insofar Industries: Representative samples for the masses
23:18:35 <Bike> codu logs still busted
23:19:15 <oerjan> well ok maybe the formatting i keep hearing about
23:20:01 <oerjan> in fact the url complained about earlier was wrong, anyway :P
23:24:15 <elliott> oerjan: it wasn't, it was the URL to the formatted log
23:24:36 <Bike> nothing is true
23:34:23 <oerjan> elliott: oh! why is that in a different directory.
23:34:52 <elliott> because log/ is actually a CGI script, I think.
23:35:25 <oerjan> which script is broken.
23:35:51 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ if [ "$1" ]; then \ grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1 \ else \ file=$(shuf -en 1 ????-??-??.txt) \ echo "$file:$(shuf -n 1 $file)" \ fi
23:36:12 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
23:36:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access irclogs: No such file or directory
23:36:24 <HackEgo> _ai \ _corewars \ _esoteric \ _esoteric-chess-variants \ _esoteric-minecraft \ _esoteric_shadow \ _\FRIends*foR*evEr\ \ _FRIends*foR*evEr \ _glogbot \ index.php \ log \ log.css \ log.js \ _plof \ raw \ _scapegoat \ stalker.php \ _weaaM
23:36:44 <oerjan> `ls -l /var/irclogs/log
23:36:46 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
23:36:51 <oerjan> `run ls -l /var/irclogs/log
23:36:53 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 15 Aug 20 2012 /var/irclogs/log -> ../html/log.php
23:37:34 <oerjan> `run ls -l /var/html/log.php
23:37:37 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/html/log.php: No such file or directory
23:38:14 <Bike> perhaps we have discovered the problem
23:38:16 <oerjan> hm i guess maybe it only mounts the irclogs part
23:38:25 <oerjan> so not shown in HackEgo
23:38:50 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sb
23:39:41 <HackEgo> none on /var/irclogs type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/var/irclogs/)
23:41:17 <oerjan> and the url contains no part corresponding to the irclogs
23:41:36 <oerjan> so we can probably not see it.
23:42:23 <oerjan> or whatever it's called.
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