00:05:18 <oerjan> Koen_: the former. the latter is automatic.
00:06:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: lambdas are sort of quoting for this purpose.
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00:21:54 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah but you can use partial application to avoid lambdas
00:22:57 <oerjan> need parentheses though
00:24:46 <oerjan> although either jot or iota manages to have just one function and left to right application give all of ski.
00:28:08 <oerjan> jot is close except it's reverse application.
00:30:13 <oerjan> there's probably some set of combinators that would allow it though.
00:31:55 <oerjan> (also not just one function _and_ no parentheses, that was definitely a brain fart.)
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01:13:08 <oerjan> did you see this yet http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24232896
01:13:32 * oerjan is a bit lagged on his reddit catchup.
01:16:01 <oerjan> (it's about the first carbon nanotube computer.)
01:16:21 <oerjan> it's a little bit strapped for memory.
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01:25:33 <zzo38> I tried to embed ATLAST into a program but it doesn't seems to work; I get the error "This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way. Please contact the application's support team for more information."
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01:27:03 <zzo38> Do you know what this message is?
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01:27:59 <quintopia> zzo38: it needs to be deinitialized properly?
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01:31:28 <zzo38> quintopia: I see no documentation about deinitialization.
01:36:24 <zzo38> The example doesn't include any deinitialization.
01:37:08 -!- kmc has set topic: Ultra Pattern Recognition: Sliced Pineapple: Small Umbrella Version:: | PDF still available during construction work: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ | the boily at the end of all things.
01:37:11 <zzo38> It is a Forth-like system for embedding into another program.
01:39:04 <oerjan> kmc: why this colonialism?
01:40:29 <myname> Slaves to Armok: God of Blood: Chapter II: Dwarf fortress
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01:42:16 <zzo38> I am trying to make a programming language for text adventure games that compiles into Frolg assembly language (including support for embedding arbitrary assembly language codes, even macros), and with some other optimizations too, which other Z-machine compilers lack. I try to think of what it should be done with! Things I try don't work for some reasons.
01:45:58 <kmc> "named after a deity in dragslay, himself named for a variable named "arm_ok" that counted the number of limbs the player still had attached"
01:47:21 <oerjan> i assume the deity was good at decrementing that
01:49:04 <zzo38> Decrementing? Won't it possibly be better to keep track of which ones using a bit field (unless you have a bunch of all same limbs without sides and stuff like that, I suppose)?
01:50:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1nbna6/oh_hai_mark_greg_sestero_mark_from_the_room_here/
01:51:58 <oerjan> armok, bit twiddling your arms
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02:01:12 <kmc> limbs ^= 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF;
02:02:09 <oerjan> kmc: i think that is a trick hindu gods like to use on themselves.
02:11:05 <FreeFull> zzo38: Write the compiler for the language in haskell?
02:11:15 <kmc> limbs >>= 6;
02:11:25 <kmc> FreeFull: what?
02:11:38 <kmc> oh *reads further up*
02:11:51 <kmc> maybe I ought to
02:12:02 <copumpkin> what are these limbs of which you speak then?
02:14:28 <oerjan> we could tell you, but it cost you an arm and a leg.
02:19:01 <kmc> oh I get it "*colon*ialism"
02:25:20 <Koen_> that costs aleg? that's alot
02:26:39 <oerjan> kmc: i suggest daily brain stretching
02:27:17 <zzo38> FreeFull: That was in fact one of my ideas; actually, making a Haskell EDSL. However even then there are a few problems (which perhaps can be worked around, though): one is the slowness of a Haskell compiler/program, another is the syntax (although it can be worked around by creating a preprocessor), one is the inconvenience of declaring unique keys (the only way I know is Typeable, and having to declare a type and instance for each one can be inco
02:28:20 <FreeFull> zzo38: Rather than making it an EDSL, you can make it a full-fledged language
02:30:58 <zzo38> FreeFull: Sure, but then I would need to implement nearly everything, and it could be done just as well in C too; I was going to embed ATLAST but not only does it not work but also seems a bit too klugy.
02:31:31 <FreeFull> zzo38: Haskell has very good parser combinators and such though
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02:31:57 <zzo38> I was also going to try to make it based on LYSP (a Lisp implementation), although that isn't designed to embed and it is difficult to work with a Lisp system.
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02:32:54 <FreeFull> Also Haskell has nice LLVM bindings
02:33:18 <zzo38> FreeFull: O, I know those things. Still, basing it on such programmable systems can provide macro capabilities more easily, too.
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02:34:05 <zzo38> FreeFull: I have seen those (although have never used them), but it isn't relevant here; I am not trying to compile into LLVM. I am compiling into Frolg assembly language, which in turn compiles into Z-machine code.
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02:42:29 <oerjan> the native codes are REST-less
02:47:34 <zzo38> Has anyone else done text-adventure systems with Haskell? (whether it is native code or not)
02:50:23 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/ZMachine
02:52:23 <zzo38> That is an interpreter; not a compiler though.
02:53:02 <zzo38> (It also may be defective; most Z-machine interpreters are.)
02:54:03 <Gracenotes> ah. well, just take the dual, as they say.
02:55:04 <zzo38> For one thing that won't work here; I was looking to see if anyone had text-adventure authoring systems in Haskell (whether EDSL or not, native or not), so that I may learn how it is done.
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03:15:01 <zzo38> See http://ifwiki.org/index.php/Z-machine_Hacks for some mention of some of the kind of optimizations and tricks which could be performed.
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04:52:03 <shachaf> oerjan: I think fungot was just trying to figure out whether a semigroup was a monoid.
04:52:03 <fungot> shachaf: who's viktor yushchenko? right?). compare the ambition with what guile is today.
04:53:43 <shachaf> oerjan: ("finally found the one")
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05:28:27 <Sgeo> A game that I liked when I was younger (but wouldn't bother with now, it's just a version of breakout) apparently is by a company that is focused on "games for Christians"
05:28:27 <Sgeo> http://tcrf.net/Blast_Thru
05:28:38 <Sgeo> And was originally called Bibleball
05:28:56 <zzo38> I made a Christian pinball game once.
05:29:23 <Sgeo> And I still can't find a list of powerups
05:29:45 <kmc> bibleballs
05:31:50 <kmc> v. painful condition
05:32:06 <zzo38> I won a game of Pokemon Card while I had only two cards remaining in my draw pile and opponent has zero (I also picked up my last side card on the same turn).
05:33:28 <zzo38> Hay! Why is his name written entirely hiragana on one screen, but on this screen it is partially in kanakana and partially in hiragana?
05:33:58 <Sgeo> zzo38: Christian pinball game?
05:34:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes I made one once in Visual Pinball, although it is an old version and only works in Windows (the game itself is open-source although Visual Pinball itself is MAME license)
05:34:57 <Sgeo> In what way was it Christian?
05:35:24 <zzo38> Mainly the labels on everything.
05:35:58 <zzo38> Both the labels and some of the rules were suggested by a catechism teacher, and then I implemented it and put in a few other things to improve it.
05:38:02 <zzo38> The ball saver is labeled "Forgiveness", the outlanes are labeled "Sacrifice", the bumpers are labeled "Bible", "Mass", "Prayer", "Eucharist", and "Pennance", the extra ball light is labeled "Resurrection", the drop target banks are labeled "Advent", "Christmas", "Lent", and "Easter", and there are rollover targets in the form of the sign of the cross.
05:43:05 <zzo38> There is a mode display to tell you how many times each bumper and sign of cross has to be hit to advance. Once it is done, the next drop target bank is available; the drop targets won't drop unless the bank is the active mode. Once all banks are dropped, you get an extra ball.
05:44:09 <zzo38> I made it because someone else made a pagan pinball game; therefore I should make the Christian pinball game too.
05:44:33 <zzo38> And then someone else suggested, if we have pagan and Christian, then perhaps there should also be the Zen pinball game, and that one would be flipperless.
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06:13:01 <zzo38> Someone once used the lack of Christ's second coming as an argument for the existence of other sapient life in the other solar systems.
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06:33:09 <zzo38> I have read about catechism of Catholic church in a few different books. They say that atheism is a mortal sin, but then mortal sin is defined. There are a few variations in how it is presented, but using the three points in Wikipedia, atheism fails the second condition therefore it isn't a mortal sin, and that is contradictory!
06:34:14 <Bike> "It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (no one is considered ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are inborn as part of human knowledge, but these principles can be misunderstood in a particular context)"
06:34:31 <kmc> zzo38: yes, organized religion is almost always inconsistent
06:35:00 <Bike> i don't think atheism fails that, assuming you mean the looked-at-religion-and-said-nah kind of atheism
06:35:11 <zzo38> (Although I am not sure that the parenthetical comment there is correct, but I will consider it irrelevant for now)
06:35:56 <zzo38> Bike: It does; another part of the Catholic catechism says you cannot believe unless you really do believe; being forced to believe if you don't actually believe it is worthless.
06:36:30 <Bike> I mean most atheists are pretty aware that if Catholics or whoever are right and the atheist is wrong, the atheist is goin to hell.
06:37:17 <kmc> zzo38: makes life extra hard for inquisitors
06:40:53 <zzo38> Bike: Not necessarily, and anyways that doesn't make it right. (Furthermore, if you throw dice, it comes up even, and you have to say if it is even or odd, but they say they will cut your arm off if you say it is even, that doesn't make it odd.)
06:41:16 <Bike> i have absolutely no idea what you are saying and it rules
06:42:41 <zzo38> There is also Pascal's wager (which is that believing in God is a good bet) and the atheist's wager (the reverse); my opinion is that both are invalid. (Also, these wagers won't make you believe or not, but that isn't relevant to their validity.)
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06:47:44 <zzo38> However, I am not atheist; I am panendeist (and these beliefs have nothing to do with the wagers). However, I do not believe atheism to be a sin. I am also ignostic, so that doesn't make atheism necessarily wrong either; it is OK to be atheist if you want to, but please consider it correctly.
06:48:11 <Bike> what if considering it correctly is a sin
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06:49:34 <zzo38> Well, I don't think so. Whether you believe in God or not, you should think of it for yourself.
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06:49:49 <zzo38> (Either way is OK, as far as I am concerned.)
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06:53:15 <zzo38> The Catholic church also calls agnosticism a mortal sin. That certainly does not meet the second condition, though.
06:54:39 <zzo38> In some cases it might not even meet the third condition.
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07:38:40 <zzo38> Did you make a poll in here in case you are atheist, panendeist, or whatever?
07:39:01 <zzo38> See how common it is in esoteric programming.
07:40:03 <zzo38> I do not think that counts???
07:40:53 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you read _The Little Prince_?
07:42:15 <zzo38> No, I haven't heard of it
07:42:36 <shachaf> Really? It's one of the most famous books.
07:43:09 <zzo38> I didn't know that.
07:43:35 <shachaf> Well, one of the best-selling, at least.
07:44:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books says so.
07:46:18 <Taneb> shachaf, zzo38, have either of you read House of Leaves?
07:47:27 <kmc> i believe in a thing called love
07:47:50 <Taneb> A very interesting read
07:48:26 <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall.
07:50:19 <Taneb> But can you build a house out of them?
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08:39:29 <Taneb> Anyone know a good algorithm for deciding the minimum nodes to remove from a graph such that it does not contain a certain graph as a subgraph?
08:40:08 <Taneb> Possibly specialized to a connected region of a grid
08:49:55 <zzo38> I don't know any such algorithm. What are you using this for? I would be interested to know such algorithm too.
08:51:12 <Taneb> zzo38, I am using it for a battleships AI
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09:20:49 <impomatic> Not much science fiction on that list of books.
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09:30:50 <Taneb> zzo38, what would that algorithm even be called
09:31:11 <zzo38> I don't know that either.
09:32:35 <Taneb> I thought of a way of doing it, but it relies on the subgraph isomorphism problem
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09:40:51 <FreeFull> I bet that algorithm is at the very least NP-complete, if not outside of NP
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09:48:51 <Jafet> fungot is outside of NP.
09:48:51 <fungot> Jafet: don't think this can be extremely helpful in debugging complex macros, but i think that extremes in this area
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10:49:22 <fizzie> fungot: *You* are the extreme here.
10:49:22 <fungot> fizzie: huh? fnord?) it works just fine on freedos, though. exceptions don't have to
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13:27:05 <ais523> `welcome AwfulProgrammer
13:27:11 <HackEgo> AwfulProgrammer: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:27:18 <HackEgo> Ghoul__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:59:39 <ais523> fizzie: I got the reverse DLL imports working on Windows
15:00:05 <ais523> it's less flexible than in Linux; the difference is that on Windows, if you're importing a symbol, you need to know which executable or library you're importing it from
15:00:16 <ais523> whereas on Linux, you just have dependencies and imported symbols and there doesn't need to be a correlation
15:01:11 <ais523> but the technique I used is simpler than either yours or the one recommended by Microsoft: I just create an import library directly from each set of object files (which doesn't require their dependencies to be in place), followed by creating libraries/executables from the object files, linking against the import ibraries
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15:41:41 <ais523> "checking how to print strings... printf"
15:41:52 <ais523> now I'm scared as to why configure even thought of checking that
15:41:58 <ais523> and what result it expected to find
15:42:12 <ais523> I guess it might be shell printf rather than C printf, that'd be a little snaer
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15:42:53 <fizzie> "checking how to print strings... print -r" says Google, so that sounds likely.
15:46:52 <ais523> I'm compiling SDL2 from source
15:47:07 <ais523> because it's not packaged yet
15:49:38 <Taneb> I dropped my glasses this afternoon and they bent and actually fit better now
15:52:12 <Taneb> Also, I'm tempted to start a "Taneb's crazy maths facts" blog
15:52:18 <Taneb> Need a short name for it
15:54:54 <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com
15:55:24 <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were taken?
15:58:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got the first three or so sorted
15:59:42 <Taneb> Wait for me to upload them
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16:01:36 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, and Go.
16:01:56 <Taneb> I am quite prolific, it seems
16:02:11 <Taneb> I'm going to be talking about the torus in maybe the fourth or fifth post
16:02:23 <ais523> what made you think of inventing an automatic squirrel feeder?
16:02:39 <olsner> so the first three are D-modules, Go and automatic squirrel feeder math?
16:02:40 <ais523> hmm… at my secondary school, there used to be a squirrel that lived inside the ceiling of the Library
16:02:52 <Phantom_Hoover> oh what the fuck, chrome removed the 'previously closed tabs' button?
16:03:00 <ais523> and sunbathed under the fluorescent light-bulbs from time to time
16:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> all so i could have a google search bar on the new tab page
16:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> you know, to go with the one that doubles for an address bar
16:03:26 <ais523> the person in charge of the building used to catch it with traps baited with Bounty bars and release it in the nearby forest
16:03:31 <ais523> but it tended to find its way back
16:04:07 <ais523> (I live quite close to the edge of Birmingham, and the school I went to was even closer; you could find fields with cows in within a minute's walk from it)
16:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wasn't there a time when google weren't pissing away all their goodwill trying to build a social media empire
16:06:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I'M MAKING CUTE LITTLE GRAPHICS
16:06:54 <Taneb> GRAPHICS + FACTS > FACTS
16:07:24 <Taneb> BE PATIENT MY CHILD
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16:46:46 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: previously closed tabs are in the menu now
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16:56:13 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott, what if i don't want the last one i closed...
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17:14:52 <zzo38> I think would be better address bar, that URLs entered are treated as relative by default; other commands entered there (such as search) start with a colon (no separate search bar is needed), and starting with :/ can abbreviate for file:///
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17:15:51 <ais523> zzo38: normally if I want to open an HTML file on my own filesystem, I give it as an argument to the web browser
17:15:57 <zzo38> (And on Windows you can use a single letter and : to automatically expand to a file: URL, since no URI schemes have just one letter, I think; even if it is, using a letter and :\ can unambiguate it)
17:16:01 <ais523> rather than entering it in the address bar
17:16:10 <ais523> unless I'm using it often enough that it's worth bookmarking
17:16:12 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, but maybe it is already open
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17:16:27 <ais523> actually, my homepage on Epiphany is /tmp/t.html
17:16:41 <ais523> which is the name I use for temporary HTML files that I've just generated from some other source
17:17:03 <ais523> (I use too many different browsers, probably)
17:17:26 <zzo38> I use about:blank as the homepage
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17:37:29 <zzo38> About the embeding programming language, well although ATLAST doesn't work I know that Pico-C works since I have used it before, so I can use that
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17:47:27 <ais523> /huge/ advantage for darcs over git: "darcs recor" is accepted, "git commi" isn't
17:49:47 <reynir> We don't like git commies around here
17:50:08 <Taneb> I'm on the IWC forum for the first time inaaaaages
17:56:20 <Taneb> Oh sorry, wrong channel
18:07:53 <kmc> this train has a sign which says "PLEASE BECOME FAMILIAR WITH THESE SIGNS"
18:08:24 <Taneb> INTIMATELY FAMILIAR
18:09:40 <ais523> kmc: there's something similar on the trains in the UK
18:10:02 <kmc> i want to put stickers of cthulhu symbols and such on it
18:10:46 <zzo38> How can you understand to become familiar with the sign that says "PLEASE BECOME FAMILIAR WITH THESE SIGNS" if you don't know how to read English signs?
18:11:11 <ais523> zzo38: you could ask someone to translate
18:11:22 <kmc> I think all the signage on Caltrain is in English only
18:11:25 <kmc> maybe some Spanish
18:11:40 <kmc> VTA (Silicon Valley) light rail and buses have English, Spanish, and Vietnamese
18:12:04 <ais523> oh, another git gripe: the command for staging a new file is the same command for staging changes to an existing file
18:12:18 <kmc> you can generalize that to "every command does four unrelated things"
18:12:22 <ais523> meaning that you can't use a tab-complete that only completes the names of new files
18:12:33 <kmc> ah I hadn't thought of that drawback
18:28:03 <Taneb> SEVEN PLUS TWELVE IS NINETEEN
18:28:15 <Taneb> FORTY IS THE ONLY NUMBER WITH ITS LETTERS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER
18:28:33 <Taneb> FOUR IS THE ONLY NUMBER WHOSE NUMBER OF LETTERS IS ITSELF
18:29:08 <Taneb> A SQUARE NUMBER PLUS TWICE ITS SQUARE ROOT PLUS ONE IS THE NEXT SQUARE NUMBER
18:29:50 <Taneb> How is that for you, Phantom_Hoover
18:30:32 <ion> My nephew came up with a Korg Monotron patch that sounds like a fart and found it immensely hilarious.
18:31:59 <kmc> that's fantastic
18:33:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you didn't ask for /fun/ ones
18:34:00 <zzo38> They keep playing DEFENDER which turns out to be to *my* advantage. (I can also take advantage of opponent's resistance sometimes in similar way)
18:34:52 <kmc> huh http://www.wps.com/J/codes/ claims that x^y for exponentiation comes from x↑y, ASCII 1963's ↑ having been replaced with ^
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18:41:04 <reynir> git add --update, the guy which is now gone
18:42:19 <reynir> Also, sounds like he needs a .gitignore
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18:56:52 <Taneb> Hmm, I'm not happy with the voice I'm using for Lady Bracknell
18:58:37 <Taneb> reynir, I'm trying to do a one-man radio adaptation of The Importance Of Being Earnest
18:59:58 <Taneb> Lady Bracknell is a very... thingy character
19:03:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, scarily yes
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19:16:51 <Sgeo__> My gf's professor is claiming that interpreters read line-by-line, while compilers read all at once
19:17:19 <coppro> that's a common place to draw a distinction
19:17:47 <coppro> another one is whether they actually execute the code directly or turn it into some other representation
19:17:52 <coppro> there's no single definition
19:18:57 <kmc> almost every "interpreter" does some sort of preprocessing though
19:19:13 <kmc> producing bytecode or at least a parsed syntax tree
19:19:34 <kmc> though also, a lot of things that might be considered simple file format parsers can also be seen as interpreters, and maybe more of those are line-by-line?
19:19:50 <kmc> it's really hard (and pointless) to draw a sharp line between interpreters and compilers
19:20:14 <Bike> such is classes.
19:20:22 <kmc> one definition is to say that a compiler should halt even given a program which doesn't halt
19:21:48 <reynir> super compilers don't always, I think
19:22:07 <Sgeo__> And if there's no such thing as a program that doesn't halt in the language?
19:22:19 <Bike> then you go back to "really hard (and pointless)"?
19:24:49 <FreeFull> Sgeo__: AFAIK Pascal is specially designed so that the compiler only has to do one pass
19:25:42 <kmc> I still really want stageless Haskell, where you have something like (Typeable a) => Q Exp -> IO (Maybe a) available to compile Template Haskell ASTs at runtime
19:25:42 <Bike> do any modern compilers actually do that
19:26:03 <kmc> it's the Template Haskell monad.
19:28:07 <FreeFull> Bike: I don't think so, C compilers are mad about optimising as much as is possible
19:28:13 <kmc> I think it's named after the Star Trek character
19:28:25 <kmc> does TCC do more than one pass? and is it considered "modern"
19:28:34 <kmc> and most importantly, when will someone write a Haskell compiler named THC
19:29:02 <kmc> I fear you are begging the question with your definition of "modern" (itt I go out of my way to use the phrase "begging the question" 'correctly', thus impeding linguistic progress)
19:29:40 <Bike> oh i just meant like, not written for a PDP
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19:50:52 <Sgeo__> Has lambdabot gone insane, or is oerjan looking at my ? operator again
19:51:14 <Bike> lambdabot: are you insane
19:52:04 <Sgeo__> "oerjan said 10m 22d 23h 20m 48s ago: You realize ? must have the property a ? (a+k) = a+(k+1) for all natural numbers k? (also you have to decide whether it should work left or right associatively,"
19:52:35 <Sgeo__> Oh, I was thinking minutes
19:52:42 <Sgeo__> Why is lambdabot just delivering this to me now?
19:53:19 <Bike> maybe he sent it to sgeo__ and not sgeo, and you haven't been sgeo__ for a while
19:53:27 <Bike> thank god we don't just use memoserv, huh
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20:45:32 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> there's a co�p down the road from my new flat <-- mine too!
20:46:12 <oerjan> it's even newer than the flat
20:47:55 <oerjan> technically, down the pedestrian walkway across the railway crossing bridge.
20:48:53 * oerjan has had a membership card for many years.
20:49:47 <oerjan> also it's obviously not the same coop as in britain, although they did try to unite with the other nordic ones for a while, but i think they gave up on that.
20:52:00 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coop_Norden
20:53:04 <fizzie> There are all kind of coops. There's one in Switzerland and one in Italy too.
20:53:57 <oerjan> the norwegian one didn't used to be called coop until that nordic merger, but it didn't return the old name afterwards.
20:55:04 <oerjan> hm wait that's chronologically incorrect, they renamed 2 years before the merger.
20:55:21 <fizzie> Perhaps Phantom_Hoover was talking about, say, a chicken coop instead.
20:55:48 <oerjan> i don't think so, he wouldn't have called that socialist. or would he?
20:56:06 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't see that part.
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20:57:11 <oerjan> i don't think a pecking order is a classless society, Phantom_Hoover
20:58:20 <fizzie> Also, you can use ctrl-shift-T repeatedly to get tabs farther back.
20:58:30 <fizzie> Then you can just re-close the ones you didn't want to re-open.
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21:11:45 <oerjan> also, Phantom_Hoover and atehwa need to fix their encoding
21:12:44 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
21:12:57 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
21:13:49 <oerjan> nooodl: why aren't you using extra o's instead of _'s
21:14:18 <nooodl> noooodl is reserved for my ipad!
21:14:40 <ion> There’s still plenty of space for more os.
21:14:40 <ais523> just like ais523_ is reserved for wired connections, nowadays
21:15:38 <nooodl> ndl is my three letter acronym thing i use in arcadey games and stuff
21:15:59 <nooodl> now that i think about it "ooo" would be a good one too
21:16:01 <oerjan> oh well at least you have a system.
21:16:22 <ais523> my nick eventually condenses down to just the 5, under more and more character pressure
21:16:34 <kmc> is that like http://responsiveurl.co.uk/responsive/dont/forget/url/
21:17:53 <nooodl> i'm sometimes ^ on another irc server
21:18:36 <kmc> is that the nooodliest character?
21:18:49 <kmc> i would think ~ if not ～
21:18:50 <mnoqy> ~ is pretty noodley
21:19:29 <FireFly> But what is the noodliest?
21:19:57 <kmc> ion: what was yours?
21:19:59 <kmc> first one I mean
21:20:12 <kmc> was it 'STEAMING BOWL' (U+1F35C) (also, eww)
21:20:20 <ion> kmc: U+1D008
21:20:49 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biangbiang_noodles#Unicode
21:21:41 <HackEgo> bin/ord: Bourne-Again shell script text executable
21:21:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ echo "$@" | perl -C7 -pe 'chomp; $_ = join(" ", map { ord } split //, $_);'
21:22:23 <kmc> also are you all excited for the newly released Unicode 6.3.0 http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode6.3.0/
21:22:30 <kmc> i know about this because I follow Unicode Consortium on twitter
21:22:51 <kmc> there are five new characters: ARABIC LETTER MARK, LEFT-TO-RIGHT ISOLATE, RIGHT-TO-LEFT ISOLATE, FIRST STRONG ISOLATE, POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE
21:22:59 <ion> Does it add BLACK FROWNING FACE?
21:23:13 <kmc> the main thing is they changed the bidi algorithm
21:23:34 <kmc> they also added standardized variation sequences for all 1,002 CJK compatibility ideographs
21:23:38 <kmc> whatever the hell that means
21:27:16 <oerjan> does POP DIRECTIONAL ISOLATE mean the algorithm is actually stack-based now
21:27:43 <kmc> they already had POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING
21:27:52 <kmc> "terminates the effects of the last explicit code (either embedding or override) and restores the bidirectional state to what it was before that code was encountered"
21:28:06 <kmc> "the maximum explicit depth is level 61"
21:28:18 <kmc> so, any esolang based on the Unicode bidi algorithm?
21:28:38 <olsner> 61 is a lot of levels just to put letters in order
21:29:32 <kmc> I wonder what ARABIC LETTER MARK is for and what happens if i put it by something that is not an ARABIC LETTER
21:30:24 <nooodl> kmc: you will be arrested by the U+1F89D UNICODE POLICE
21:30:42 <oerjan> kmc: then that symbol becomes absorbed into the Umma forever.
21:31:57 <oerjan> at least it's better thank khadafy
21:31:59 <kmc> I wonder if there has been any serious attempt to provide a simpler alternative to Unicode, from people who actually understand why Unicode is so complex
21:33:02 <kmc> there's probably no need because a) keeping the Universal Character Set would make sense in any case, and b) the other stuff (bidi, normalization, East Asian Width) gets "simplified" already by people just not bothering to implement it correctly
21:33:29 <myname> how about https://github.com/aheui/aheui.github.io/blob/master/_posts/2006-10-27-specification.en.markdown
21:34:51 <kmc> both interpreter links are 404 tho :(
21:34:53 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I think fungot was just trying to figure out whether a semigroup was a monoid. <-- i do not remember what you refer to.
21:34:54 <fungot> oerjan: wrote a perl-oneliner ( in the plt matcher? :p.
21:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: That's why I clarified a couple of lines down.
21:35:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i _still_ don't remember.
21:37:12 <oerjan> shachaf: now i checked, and i think you have confused me with olsner
21:37:12 <kmc> btw I only know of one programming language which specifies a Unicode normalization form for identifiers etc.
21:37:26 <olsner> since hangul characters have those separate parts, I think the language should use a different part of each letter depending on which direction the instruction pointer is traveling
21:37:41 <shachaf> 23:23:17: <olsner> apparently fungot "finally found the one", so I'm happy for 'em either way
21:37:41 <fungot> shachaf: but i remember a submarine!! everybody out of the stated sample, a woodchuck would chuck no amount of money. if you
21:37:48 <shachaf> 23:24:01: <oerjan> itt fungot admits to using cliches
21:37:57 <kmc> in other languages you can probably make distinct variables named "coöp" and "coöp" which could be fun
21:38:18 <myname> kmc: can't rust do that?
21:38:29 <kmc> yeah Rust is the one language I am thinking of
21:38:29 <olsner> shachaf: I don't remember the context for that
21:38:43 <shachaf> > let coöp = 1; coöp = 2 in coöp + coöp
21:38:44 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: lexical error at character '\776'
21:38:46 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think i was responding to the line you quoted.
21:38:48 <kmc> source is normalized to NFKC
21:39:07 <kmc> I haven't checked that rustc implements this rule properly
21:40:13 <shachaf> kmc: is there a difference between rust the language and rust the thing rustc implements
21:51:13 <oerjan> <shachaf> They're called leaves because they leave the trees in the fall. Which is why it's called fall. <-- i don't seem to find confirmation of the first part.
21:51:34 <fizzie> kmc: Python identifiers are also normalized, as it's based on UAX #31 identifiers: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3131/
21:52:52 <shachaf> oerjan: http://vidasegunda.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-favorite-season.html
21:54:14 <oerjan> shachaf: good, good. linguistics as referenced on wiktionary does not seem to agree, though.
21:55:46 <shachaf> imo linguistics as referenced on common decency doesn't agree with two spaces after a period
21:55:48 <oerjan> btw en:fall/autumn = no:høst = en:harvest (v imper.)
21:56:40 * impomatic is searching for the Simtel archive. There must be a mirror still online...
21:57:11 <FreeFull> en:autumn = pl:jesień = en:autumn
21:57:20 <oerjan> it is, alas, my solemn fate to challenge the hangups of those who insist on one space after periods.
21:58:09 <FreeFull> Clearly periods should have four spaces after them
21:58:17 <FreeFull> And shouldn't be called periods
21:58:27 <olsner> spaces should have four periods after them
21:58:59 <oerjan> also no:vår means both en:spring and en:our but that's probably more of an accident.
21:59:03 <FreeFull> Well, ....obey ....your ....own ....rules!
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21:59:46 <oerjan> the last two seasons are obvious cognates.
22:00:01 <FireFly> I wonder what the etymology of sv:skörd (= en:harvest) is, if the scandinavian languages don't agree
22:00:31 <FireFly> disagree on the word to use, I mean
22:01:29 <FireFly> Oh, from 'skära' (cut). That makes sense, I suppose.
22:02:39 <FreeFull> Harvest originally comes from keirō, “to cut off” according to wiktionary
22:03:15 <olsner> hmm, so harvest and skörd are cognates then?
22:03:36 <oerjan> FreeFull: um that's not how you read that etymology.
22:03:58 <fizzie> It's getting sort of early-autumny here -> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130929-au.jpg <- that's taken today.
22:04:17 <FireFly> It seems to come from PG *harbistaz (meaning autumn/fall)
22:04:22 <oerjan> it's a cognate, but harvest no more comes from it than humans descend from modern monkeys.
22:05:38 <FireFly> So that makes harvest cognate with höst (and høst)
22:05:40 <shachaf> what if i do descend from modern monkeys
22:05:44 <FreeFull> oerjan: Oh, I missed the middle of it
22:05:55 <FreeFull> Harvest comes from kerp/skerp apparently
22:07:45 <oerjan> while skörd would be from (s)ker- which is close but not exactly the same. maybe they're related even further back.
22:08:56 <oerjan> shachaf: if you say so.
22:09:09 <FreeFull> It all gets fuzzier the further back you go in time
22:09:21 <FireFly> What if shachaf descends from modern monqis?
22:09:39 <FreeFull> Who knows what what those ancient people spoke sounded like
22:09:40 <oerjan> mnoqy: is shachaf your son
22:10:36 <shachaf> mnoqy is not a modern monkey
22:10:40 <shachaf> or any other kind of monkey
22:10:43 <shachaf> why would you even say that
22:11:17 <FreeFull> shachaf: What kind of monkey did you descend from? Spider monkey?
22:12:06 <oerjan> a monkey was bitten by a radioactive/genetically engineered/nanobot infested spider
22:12:52 <FireFly> a monqi once bit my sister
22:12:53 <oerjan> it now leaps from internet forum to internet forum using its powerful sticky web
22:13:04 <FreeFull> oerjan: Actually, it was the other way around
22:13:56 <shachaf> mnoqy: you shouldn't stand for this
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22:14:50 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry, the monkey and mnoqy theories are entirely separate. linguists have been unable to determine with certainty which word applies, though
22:15:13 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
22:15:17 <HackEgo> mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
22:16:17 <FireFly> Clearly I didn't intend mnoqy to be dragged into this
22:23:15 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
22:24:21 <HackEgo> 26) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 49) <Warrigal> Porn. <Warrigal> There, see? \ 92) <DoctorDog> I am an inherently pornographic being. \ 111) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all,
22:25:04 <HackEgo> 881) <Taneb> That's the problem with Tumblr <Taneb> All the porn titles are taken by non-porn people
22:25:04 <mnoqy> i don't get 49 or 92
22:25:34 <oerjan> you expect porn to make sense?
22:26:26 <shachaf> quotes don't have to make sense to be in `quote
22:26:40 <shachaf> but there has to be some justification
22:27:08 <oerjan> `addquote <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were taken? <Taneb> Yeah
22:27:12 <HackEgo> 1110) <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were taken? <Taneb> Yeah
22:27:21 <ais523> oerjan: good quote addition :)
22:28:38 <oerjan> just needed to check for the context first.
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22:29:10 <HackEgo> 881) <Taneb> That's the problem with Tumblr <Taneb> All the porn titles are taken by non-porn people \ 1045) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners \ 1110) <Taneb> I... I think I've just registered mathsfacts.tumblr.com <ais523> Taneb: because all the porn names were
22:29:44 <oerjan> the porn quotes outnumber the tumblr quotes by quite a margin.
22:30:26 <shachaf> mathsfacts.tumblr.com is empty
22:30:41 <oerjan> 15:59:42: <Taneb> Wait for me to upload them
22:30:41 <oerjan> 15:59:44: <Taneb> One by one
22:31:01 <shachaf> oh, wait, that quote is recent
22:31:31 <olsner> FUN FACT: that quote is quite recent
22:34:02 <ion> fun fact 0 = -144
22:34:12 <coppro> fun fact shachaf = ion
22:34:29 <shachaf> | fact n = n * fact (n - 1)
22:35:03 <ion> fun fact Z̢̨̺̟̝͙͍̤̦͖͍̤̮̳̗̭̣̣͋̉ͭ̑͑̃͋ͧͨͥͦͣ̾̇̓ͧ̔̈́̚Á̸̔ͤ͊̉ͭ͒ͪ̚҉̶̵͎͎͓̻͎͕͍̫̪͈ͅL͌̔̾̌ͬ͏̶̻̲̰̺͎͍̯͈̺͙͚̣̻̫̥͔Ǵ̛̅̃̾̈́ͮ̎̅҉̡͕̺̫̟̗́Ő̧̝̟̩͉͙̼̮͉̝̣͈̳͚̅͑̑̓͗̚̚͜͞ͅ
22:35:16 <mnoqy> that fact wasn't very fun ion :(
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22:35:34 <HackEgo> 95 803 803 95 845 811 810 840 95 811 805 852 95 799 791 95
22:35:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> mathsfacts.tumblr.com is empty
22:36:14 <Taneb> shachaf, oerjan, that's because maths makes no sense
22:36:21 <oerjan> also we need the reverse command of `unicode
22:36:30 <shachaf> Taneb: if i wanted sense i would have gone to mathssense.tumblr.com
22:36:34 <shachaf> Taneb: i went to mathsfacts.tumblr.com
22:36:38 <shachaf> Taneb: i demand maths facts
22:36:43 <oerjan> Taneb: have you given up blogging about it
22:36:49 <Taneb> oerjan, I have yet to begin
22:37:06 <shachaf> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khinchin%27s_constant is a p. good maths fact imo
22:37:07 <Taneb> I probably shouldn't have told anyone until I had one published
22:37:22 <ais523> I think I prefer it this way
22:37:29 <ion> fun fact: most natural numbers have the digit 7.
22:37:33 <ais523> how's the BF derivative tumblr getting along?
22:37:45 <ais523> ion: and a large proportion start with 1
22:38:07 <ais523> (whereas only one starts with 0)
22:38:33 <ion> I see what you did there.
22:39:18 <shachaf> I'd prefer to say what we write as "0" should be written "".
22:39:33 <oerjan> exactly _how_ large a proportion is tricky to define, though, i think.
22:39:59 <Taneb> oerjan, I think it's roughly 10% of them?
22:40:06 <ais523> Taneb: it's more than 10%
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22:40:32 <oerjan> Taneb: fraction which starts with 1 of {1, ..., n} does not converge.
22:40:34 <Taneb> Is it? Wow, that's a lot of numbers
22:40:35 <ais523> although yeah, the exact amount depends heavily on what definitions you use
22:40:38 <ais523> because it doesn't converge
22:40:59 <ais523> I've seen figures as high as like 40%
22:41:29 <Taneb> I reiterate my statement: Wow, that's a lot of numbers
22:42:04 <ion> fun fact: the sum of all positive n^(−2) is π²/6
22:42:08 <oerjan> whenever n=999999999... it is close to 10%, but when n=199999... it will be close to 55%
22:42:08 <ais523> there are a lot of numbers in general
22:42:21 <oerjan> i think those are the extremes
22:42:48 <ais523> hmm, now I'm remembering what happened when the article on 0.999.... was featured on Wikipedia
22:42:50 <Taneb> ion, what's that in tau
22:43:00 <ais523> there was a flame war about whether it's equal to 1 or not all day on the Talk page
22:43:05 <ais523> Taneb: tau squared over 24
22:43:05 <oerjan> and the other needs adjustment too
22:44:39 <ais523> converting between tau and pi is pretty easy, really
22:45:54 <oerjan> ais523: i expect that flame war did not end up with any useful citations for the "not equal" POV
22:45:57 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm just too tired right now
22:46:11 <ais523> oerjan: I didn't read it
22:46:16 <ais523> just got amused by its existence
22:46:41 <oerjan> ais523: failing at _both_ math and wikipedia policies, simultaneously?
22:47:25 <oerjan> the people posting in that thread
22:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> there was a flame war about whether it's equal to 1 or not all day on the Talk page
22:48:25 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it's productive to ask "how is it even possible that some people misunderstand X on the Internet", for any X
22:48:44 <ais523> after seeing "how do u write uploader comments" in a YouTube comment, pretty much anything is possible
22:49:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: which is just as publicly accessible as YouTube?
22:50:04 <Phantom_Hoover> well surely wp's perspective is 'every academic agrees with this unless they're being a smartarse'
22:50:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: actually a common row on Wikipedia is "should you place more attention on the scientific/academic point of view because it's scientific/academic"
22:51:45 <ais523> I wasn't involved in that, but several people cited issues related to that as the reason for leaving the site
22:52:29 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> I'm older than you you idiot <-- the years you've been insulting everyone don't count
22:52:45 <oerjan> so i assume you're about 11 or 12.
22:53:16 <Phantom_Hoover> well not counting the years you weren't dumb you're like 7
22:53:54 <oerjan> that's pretty close, my dad estimates 8
22:54:19 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: why do you insult everyone
22:54:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I thought you were a few months younger?
22:54:24 <shachaf> it's mostly just an unpleasant thing to do
22:54:25 <oerjan> (disclaimer: may not have measured the exact same thing)
22:54:31 <Taneb> Like it goes me --> you --> elliott
22:55:54 <Taneb> But you're weird (scottish) and went to uni too early
22:56:34 <Taneb> shachaf, you're Finnish American which I assume is perfectly normal
22:56:43 <oerjan> the scots get an intellectual advantage by not bothering with things like politeness, maybe?
22:57:11 <ais523> hey, I don't like seeing regulars insult each other
22:57:13 <oerjan> should i stop now, or ten minutes ago.
22:57:15 <ais523> if you're enjoying the flame war, go on
22:57:20 <ais523> but only if both of you are enjoying it
22:57:36 <ais523> it mostly just seems like pointless posturing, though
23:04:37 <oerjan> <Taneb> FORTY IS THE ONLY NUMBER WITH ITS LETTERS IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER <-- COOL
23:04:53 <oerjan> (also what does it say about me that i checked this in my head)
23:04:55 <Taneb> That of course only applies in the english language
23:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> hey, I don't like seeing regulars insult each other
23:05:48 <ais523> how does it work in Norwegian?
23:05:54 <shachaf> oerjan: that's not a maths fact :'(
23:06:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: I suspect a lot of people have stopped caring about your intent a long time ago.
23:07:11 <oerjan> ais523: 1 = en/ei/ett is the only example i can find, although curiously all genders work :)
23:07:38 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's why I asked you/oerjan to drop the subject, rather than treating you like you were actually being malicious
23:07:41 <Taneb> Oddly, in English "One" is in reverse alphabetical order
23:07:56 <oerjan> (also that's the only number which is gendered in norwegian, except combinations including it)
23:08:14 <shachaf> oerjan: I think the Hebrew for "four" is also the only number that's its own number of letters long.
23:08:18 <Taneb> One Thousand is the first number with an 'a' in it if you don't count the "and"s
23:08:57 <oerjan> oh norwegian has several for that 2 = to, 3 = tre, 4 = fire
23:09:12 <ais523> oerjan: it should continue the pattern indefinitely >:(
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23:09:33 <Taneb> ais523, first natural number, then
23:09:41 <Taneb> Counting from "zero"
23:09:50 <Taneb> Which I believe is the only number with a z in it
23:10:46 <shachaf> What about twenty-zero and thirty-zero and so on?
23:11:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: numberwang: not found
23:11:21 <ais523> "twenty-zero" sounds like a zzoism to me
23:11:34 <ais523> (well, I like zzoisms in general, but I wouldn't normally actually /use/ them)
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23:12:33 <ais523> zzo38 uses them better than I do
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23:14:38 <HackEgo> 859) <zzo38> Yes I am native English speaker, but it is Canadian English, not British English. \ 824) <zzo38> The reason it isn't more popular is because I wrote it today. \ 1077) <zzo38> If you want to ask me if I believe in determinism then you have to be more specific. <zzo38> I haven't checked if I conduct electricity significantly better than
23:23:35 <Koen_> hmmm, does someone know of some article that could help me choose which type of self-balancing search tree is the best-suited for a task?
23:25:47 <Taneb> There is actually a maths fact now!
23:26:30 <shachaf> that's almost not a fact :'(
23:26:49 <shachaf> it's more like a definition of ... imo
23:28:02 <Taneb> Otherwise it wouldn't be on mathsfacts.tumblr.com
23:28:45 <Taneb> Also do you know how hard it was to get that photo of the rice?
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23:31:05 <shachaf> imo don't cry over spilled rice
23:31:33 <oerjan> Taneb: rice more goes with the 1 + 2 + 4 + ... + 2^64 story, me thinks
23:32:00 <Taneb> oerjan, I didn't have any beans
23:32:13 <Taneb> But that was the allusion I was making
23:32:42 <oerjan> also, 1 + 2 + 4 + ... = -1, obviously.
23:33:02 <Taneb> shachaf, I had to pour the rice onto the table, take the picture, then pour the rice back into the jar!
23:33:12 <Taneb> At half 1 in the morning!
23:33:22 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-adic_number
23:33:26 <Taneb> At half 12 in the morning!
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