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00:35:11 <quintopia> ais523: esolang esolang Esolang. esolang?
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04:42:06 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: Hey! Just finished the groundwork for my brainfuck compiler!
04:43:53 <Edward___> Well, by groundwork I mean: I've gotten the File IO stuff taken care of with C (which I'm still shaky with)
04:44:07 <Edward___> So I can pass two arguments, one for the text file, one for the output c file.
04:44:47 <Edward___> And, it works! Now I'm working on the actual reading of information from the first file, clearly. Can write to second file, but reading is, well, nasty.
04:45:43 <Edward___> When I've finished, I'll put it on Github, if you'd like to see if you can help clean it up, please!
04:47:09 <Edward___> Great, I've only been working for about twenty minutes, I'll see what I can do before I knock out tonight. I'll stay on the channel in case I finish early.
04:48:02 <LinearInterpol> Ever vigilant is the programmer, armed with his knowledge of code. I wish you the best of luck. :)
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04:48:30 <Bike> is that why everyone just idles
04:48:41 <Bike> also singular they ftw
04:49:05 <oklopol> "When you do, what do you?" is very sofe du phil
04:50:07 <Edward___> I like reading it when I log on haha
04:51:21 <Bike> has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like
04:51:28 <oklopol> Edward___: i like you, who are you?
04:51:49 <LinearInterpol> Bike: there is a full 20 page continuation of that I shit you not.
04:52:23 <Bike> is there a usual edward
04:53:02 <kmc> there are a few haskell-edwards
04:53:03 <oklopol> so in france i was talking to some people and i saw this poster on some logic that has call/cc and i said "ooh what's that now" and forgot the people existed
04:53:12 <Bike> oh right, edwardk
04:53:26 <kmc> logic that has call/cc = classical logic?
04:53:45 <oklopol> what do you mean by classical logic?
04:54:08 <oklopol> and i don't know in what sense any logic has call/cc
04:54:23 <oklopol> the poster was not very specific :(
04:54:26 <Bike> logic with call/cc is equivalent to classical predicate logic or some shit like that i think
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04:54:38 <oklopol> you guys have so much to teach me
04:55:20 <oklopol> Bike: that'd be more helpful if i knew what "logic" means
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04:56:15 <oklopol> "The Curry-Howard correspondence between proofs and programs relates call/cc to Peirce's law."
04:56:22 <Edward___> I am a new Edward, hence the double underscore
04:56:24 <kmc> oklopol: classical logic is the kind with ¬¬p → p
04:56:26 <oklopol> you guys knew this and never told me? :(
04:56:43 <Edward___> I joined last night, and LinearInterpol has mentored me ever since hahaha
04:56:45 <Bike> i can't tell how serious anyone's being right now, help
04:56:49 <kmc> oklopol: type systems give you constructive logic by default but the type of call/cc is Peirce's Law and adding that as an axiom to a constructive logic makes it classical
04:58:51 <oklopol> i only know peirce's law from reading metamath
04:59:13 <kmc> to prove (p ∨ ¬p), make a baseless assertion that ¬p, but also capture the current continuation. if somebody calls BS on your claim by providing a witness for p, use the continuation to go back in time and say that p was true all along
04:59:16 <Bike> i think there's a decent chance i would actually like reading peirce directly, hmmmmm
04:59:41 <Bike> gotta learn me some abduction
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05:00:24 <oklopol> kmc: ooh would like to see some detail on that
05:00:36 <kmc> that got weird
05:00:46 <Bike> probably ripe for esolangs too reall y
05:01:00 <kmc> ... i like weird
05:01:10 <kmc> anyway uh i don't have that much more detail... I could write out a term with the right type in Haskell's Cont monad, given enough time, but I probably won't
05:01:19 <kmc> maybe someone else can do it or find it in the logs
05:02:17 <kmc> I guess I should also prove that ∀p. ¬¬p → p is equivalent to ∀p. (p ∨ ¬p) maybe
05:02:41 <Bike> i should think that's more well known
05:02:50 <oklopol> i think i should first try to recall how peirce's law works
05:03:06 <oklopol> i mean iirc i was able to find it obvious last time i looked
05:04:20 <oklopol> not that it's needed for understanding how it corresponds to call/cc prolly, if indeed it's the type of it
05:04:50 <oklopol> why is that the type of call/cc?
05:05:21 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
05:05:21 <Edward___> This is all predicate logic from discrete math
05:05:58 <Bike> i have no idea why callCC has that type, of course.
05:06:01 <Edward___> Anyway, guys... I found something worse than hating yourself for missing a semicolon from not paying attention
05:06:21 <oklopol> Bike: thank you for joining us stupids :)
05:06:25 <Edward___> Forgetting to add a semicolon on a file that you're creating with a program from not paying attention...
05:06:38 <oklopol> i don't even know what MonadCont is
05:06:50 <Edward___> Nesting problems makes them more annoying
05:06:51 <Bike> i think it's just a typeclass for Cont because I don't know? HASKELL
05:07:03 <kmc> yeah because you might have a monad transformer stack with ContT in it somewhere
05:07:12 <Bike> anyway so callcc takes a function that returns a thingie, i got that much
05:07:20 <kmc> Bike: well a continuation has type (a → ⊥) because you call it and it doesn't return
05:07:21 <Bike> and that function takes a function that takes a non-thingie and makes a thingie out of it
05:07:33 <Bike> which.. i guess is the continuation, ok.
05:07:37 <kmc> and that's sort of like (∀b. a → b)
05:08:00 <zzo38> What is a "non-thingie"?
05:08:06 <Bike> a value not in the cont monad.
05:08:18 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: update, got the reading working. I'll be done in just a little, hopefully.
05:08:19 <Bike> somebody's probably having a heart attack from my use of wordes
05:08:28 <kmc> so call/cc calls a function of type (∀b. a → b) → a, i.e. passing a continuation as the argument, and the function can also return an 'a' normally
05:08:34 <Bike> right ok, makes sense
05:08:42 <Bike> and it can also call the continuation on an a and that returns it right off
05:08:48 <kmc> and uh you can hoist the ∀ out to top level because *handwave*
05:08:50 <Bike> from the, callcc thing.
05:09:01 <kmc> actually I remember encountering a situation where I wanted the rank-3 callCC with the ∀ inside
05:09:09 <kmc> but it's usually good enough to have it on the outside
05:09:17 <zzo38> Law of excluded middle continuations can be made too, similar to how kmc described above
05:09:21 <shachaf> Well, you can always instantiate it with Void.
05:09:40 <kmc> and use void elimination wherever I need to use it polymorphically? yeah good point
05:09:44 <zzo38> I called it "lemCC", though, rather than whatever the proper name is (if there is one)
05:09:49 <kmc> (is that elimination or introduction? i can never keep 'em straight)
05:10:16 <shachaf> Elimination, I guess, since you're consuming it.
05:11:06 <kmc> om nom nom
05:11:44 <zzo38> Is there a more proper name for such a thing? lemCC :: Either a (a -> Cont r b)
05:11:46 <oklopol> kmc: what element of a does it return?
05:11:58 <Bike> does what return
05:11:58 <oklopol> the one coming off the continuation... never?
05:12:11 <oklopol> i mean the call of the function with the current continuation
05:12:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, that's uninhabited in Haskell.
05:12:27 <Bike> i'm thinkin a this like scheme because ha ha haskell
05:12:39 <Bike> call/cc takes a "continuation" which we pretend is a function from things to bottom
05:12:48 <Bike> er, it takes a function that takes a continuation
05:12:57 <shachaf> You can always make a continuation a separate type rather than pretending it's a function.
05:13:00 <Bike> and the function can also just never call the continuation, returning normally
05:13:15 <oklopol> also i don't know what (∀b. a → b) actually means
05:13:34 <Bike> shachaf: but then it wouldn't look like peirce's law? or something?? i only know peirce from like mapmaking and shit
05:14:01 <Bike> oklopol: it can return a value of any possible type i think? and the only value that fits that is bottom
05:14:08 <Bike> or undefined w/e types values fuck fuck fuck
05:15:01 <oklopol> does it mean it has all possible types? is that the same as saying it has both types a -> int and a -> string, since int \cap string is empty?
05:15:02 <shachaf> there's so much backlog/scrollback/whatever is it worth reading
05:15:20 <Bike> shachaf: it only goes back like ten minutes
05:15:21 <shachaf> oklopol: There's no real notion of \cap of types.
05:15:27 <shachaf> Bike: yes but y'all talk so much
05:15:50 <Bike> ok five screens, and that's on my ridiculous x600 screen
05:15:53 <oklopol> well i guess the intersection of two types should always be empty
05:16:24 <oklopol> so can you have a function with both types a -> int and a -> string?
05:16:24 <shachaf> ok what's the question at hand here
05:16:34 <shachaf> oklopol: Yes, using polymorphism.
05:16:41 <Bike> the a -> m b part particularly
05:16:52 <shachaf> If you have a function of type (forall b. a -> b), it means the caller can pick what b is.
05:16:54 <oklopol> but you cannot have something of type (∀b. a → b) using polymorphism?
05:17:09 <shachaf> Of course, such a type is uninhabited in Haskell.
05:17:14 <shachaf> But you can express the type.
05:17:22 <zzo38> shachaf: Correct that is because I made a mistake.
05:17:27 <shachaf> Bike: Well, it might be clearer to pretend you had first-class callCC.
05:17:31 <Bike> Wait, it's uninhabited? What's the continuation then
05:17:32 <zzo38> It should be: Cont r (Either a (a -> Cont r b))
05:17:32 <oklopol> why is it uninhabited? because it should work also for empty b?
05:17:35 <zzo38> That is what I meant
05:17:37 <shachaf> I.e. ccc :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a
05:17:38 <Bike> and what's first class call cc gosh
05:17:46 <shachaf> No "m"s to get in the way.
05:17:57 <shachaf> Then you can figure out the ms later.
05:18:09 <Bike> how's it uninhabited though
05:18:29 <shachaf> Well, (forall b. Int -> b) means that you give me an Int and I give you something of any type you like.
05:18:39 <shachaf> But some types are uninhabited, so obviously I can't do that.
05:18:39 <Bike> :t \x -> undefined
05:18:50 <shachaf> Uninhabited if you ignore _|_.
05:18:57 <zzo38> (It is still a mistake because it should be ContT and that stuff, but hopefully now is understandable)
05:19:00 <Bike> But the function itself isn't bottom, riht?
05:19:30 <Bike> I mean, is forall b. a -> b a roundabout way of saying a function with a bottom return type, or what.
05:19:44 <Bike> i should really stop conflating bottom and undefined, huh
05:20:01 <oklopol> "<shachaf> Uninhabited if you ignore _|_." and isn't this value exactly why the type is useful, if you can then do continuation stuff with this sort of type?
05:20:02 <kmc> well, don't confuse the type ⊥ with the value ⊥ (which is a member of every type)
05:20:10 <Bike> that's what i meant right
05:20:26 <shachaf> The type _|_ and the value _|_ have almost nothing to do with each other.
05:20:28 <kmc> if you have the value ⊥ in all the types in your language then your logic is unsound for actual logic
05:20:28 <oklopol> okay what Bike said i guess
05:20:33 <shachaf> They're both minimal in two different (semi)lattices.
05:20:34 <kmc> because you can use that value to prove any proposition
05:20:37 <Bike> the type bottom doesn't have the value bottom in it
05:20:45 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: Sorry, was AFK. Awesome, now the next step is to parse it. :)
05:20:51 * Bike flips a table over
05:21:13 <Bike> mad as hell and i'm not going to take it any more
05:21:23 <shachaf> every type has an extra inhabitant representing non-termination or whatever
05:21:29 <Bike> gonna start a stupid ass tv show where i just yell pointlessly at everything
05:21:32 <Edward___> Is it cheating if I use the translations that Wikipedia provides?
05:21:48 <shachaf> let x = x in x, or undefined, or whatever are all considered equivalent and we call them all _|_
05:22:16 <shachaf> actually looking at a value of type _|_ is equivalent to your program going into an infinite loop (and/or crashing, whatever)
05:22:19 <LinearInterpol> Edward___: Tip: if on a unix system, have an option to write to standard output.
05:22:31 <shachaf> but when we talk about haskell as logic we pretend _|_ doesn't exist because it makes it nice
05:22:46 <oklopol> does the curry-howard isomorphism for haskell's types work if you say a type is true if it contains a non-bottom value
05:22:55 <shachaf> so for the purpose of this entire discussion we'll pretend the value _|_ (undefined, infinite loops, whatever) doesn't exist
05:22:57 <Bike> starting to think talking about logic in haskell might, in fact, be kind of silly??
05:23:12 <shachaf> talking is fine because you can play pretend
05:23:24 <shachaf> implementing is p. bad, which is why haskell isn't a theorem proving system
05:23:26 <Bike> yeah but then why not use something that isn't haskell.
05:23:40 <shachaf> because you already kind of know haskell and it's good enough at expressing all these concepts
05:23:41 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: Great idea. I'll implement it tomorrow though, I need sleep haha. For now I'll just do the C file.
05:23:47 <Bike> wait, was that my fault? maybe it was me who brought up call c c
05:23:54 <LinearInterpol> there was a language derived from haskell that wasa theory proving system.
05:24:22 <shachaf> agda is good and you can get many useful haskell intuitions from it
05:24:26 <shachaf> but imo let's stick with haskell
05:24:41 <oklopol> then again it was me who asked and i don't know haskell :(
05:24:53 <shachaf> Is LinearInterpol actually = oklopol?
05:25:25 <oklopol> yeah i say all the _really_ stupid stuff with my other nick.
05:25:26 <shachaf> LinearInterpol: maybe you should change your nick
05:26:03 <shachaf> ok who actually wants to me to talk about this thing
05:26:14 <oklopol> me, but we can do that later.
05:27:58 <Bike> isn't it like five am in france
05:28:16 <Bike> isn't it like five am in finland
05:28:20 <oklopol> it's 7:30 here and 6:30 in france
05:29:02 <oklopol> like all mathematicians who can work whenever the fuck they like, i wake up at 6 every morning
05:29:15 <oklopol> (and usually wank around here for an hour asdkfj)
05:29:25 <Bike> what's it like being compltely incompreensible
05:29:56 <oklopol> it takes a practise but is worth.
05:30:21 <Bike> oh yeah well i wake up at ten... pm
05:30:24 <oklopol> i used to, but life got in the way
05:30:42 <Bike> should be going to sleep soon in fact so i ccan wake up on time
05:30:48 <Bike> see you in half an hour
05:33:42 <LinearInterpol> snow is a filthy demon that we have to fight back with shovels and beards.
05:33:54 <Edward___> we don't have those here in the Bible Belt.
05:34:26 <Edward___> It's the worst place to be an Agnostic...
05:35:10 <Edward___> my brother's an Atheist, at least she can say "Edward's just having doubts"
05:35:35 <Edward___> Issue, my Terminal won't open after crashing it after an infinite loop...
05:37:19 <Edward___> I'll send it to you tomorrow instead of tonight, okay>
05:38:04 <Edward___> I have a party at night, so I'll try and catch you in the morning.
05:39:20 <Edward___> Ooooh pretty. I'm in Atlanta, so nowhere near as scenic. Or snowy.
05:40:04 <Edward___> Anyway, I'll be on until noon or 1pm, hope to catch you!
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05:41:29 <shachaf> Your nick is too long and too capitalized.
05:42:57 <shachaf> You could go with "affine".
05:43:09 -!- LinearInterpol has changed nick to fourier.
05:43:50 -!- fourier has changed nick to LinearInterpol.
05:44:09 <shachaf> Or you could just go with "oklopol".
05:44:34 <shachaf> Oh, you could go with "relevant".
05:44:44 <shachaf> That's even more obscure than "affine"!
05:46:08 -!- LinearInterpol has changed nick to relevant.
05:46:12 <relevant> son of a bitch it isn't taken.
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06:52:48 <zzo38> As it turns out I did find some mistakes (and omissions) in this dream.txt file; I typed "isomorphic" but I meant "isometric" and fixed it; also some things I omitted before, I added in, and so on.
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07:08:56 <Bike> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8731765/Pictures%20and%20video/Glimpses%20of%20reality/don%27t%20do%20it.jpg it's cool how domain specific languages always seem to be esolangs
07:10:23 <Jafet> Is there an esolang that involves stupid ownership information
07:11:55 <zzo38> Bike: Do they? Well, even in esolang wiki there is information about prehistory of esoteric programming, and Dada Engine is mentioned on Wikipedia as an example too but I am not so sure. However, one thing that is mentioned on esolang wiki, is Automouse.
07:12:36 <zzo38> Bike: And what is the program in the picture?
07:13:34 <zzo38> Furthermore, what operations is the error message refering to?
07:13:41 <coppro> Jafet: ownership information?
07:16:12 <Bike> it controls robots, like car manufacturing ones
07:16:17 <Bike> no idea what it does
07:17:59 <Bike> well, i guess i can surmise that it's a program to pick up an object and put it down somewhere else.
07:26:19 <Jafet> This looks like the assembly language of the robot
07:26:30 <Jafet> (Assembly language of an assembly robot?)
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07:40:07 <zzo38> What programming languages might have their own other smaller programming languages/syntaxes for use with certain commands?
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07:41:00 <zzo38> Yes, that is one example of what I mean too.
07:41:21 <Bike> C++ adds templating.
07:41:31 <Bike> for uh some definition of "smaller" i suppose :p
07:41:39 <zzo38> Other things are embedded assembly language codes or SQL codes in some programs.
07:42:39 <zzo38> What other kind of examples are there? I find that in some of my programs it tends to also have additional syntaxes for other purposes built-in too
07:43:18 <zzo38> Maybe the PLAY and DRAW commands in BASIC, kind of are
07:43:40 <zzo38> Many programming languages have regular expressions
07:43:56 <kmc> I almost feel like every API is an example of this
07:44:03 <Bike> yeah, it's hard to draw a line.
07:46:50 <zzo38> kmc: Maybe, but some things may be more so or less so than others
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08:25:36 <Jafet> kmc: especially the cross-language ones
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08:39:48 <coppro> how does one measure time and space efficiency in the lambda calculus?
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08:41:35 <Bike> count reduction steps?
08:42:50 <shachaf> You have no reason to believe this sentence.
08:44:38 <Bike> yeah i do, shachaf doesn't usually lie for no reason
08:45:44 <coppro> Bike: is that a guess?
08:45:58 <Bike> maybe it would help if this was conveyed to me in the form of a universially quantified sentence referencing some fucking island
08:46:17 <shachaf> did you figure out the callcc business yet
08:46:54 <Bike> play some god damned billy joel
08:47:27 <shachaf> you can do a haskell exercise if you just want to figure it out by brute force
08:47:40 <shachaf> using ccc :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a; ccc = undefined
08:47:47 <shachaf> define lem :: Either (a -> Void) a
08:48:35 <Bike> lem = law-excluded-middle right
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08:51:27 <kmc> "My Name Is Skrillex (Skrillex Remix)" by Skrillex
08:51:47 <Bike> i want to insult someone by telling them that their actions are poorly conveyed
08:53:57 <Bike> maybe it's me whose actions are poorly conveyed though
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09:39:01 <shachaf> «Once upon a time two boys found a cake. One of them said: “Splendid! I will eat the cake.” The other one said: “No, that is not fair! We found the cake together, and we should share and share alike; half for you and half for me.” The first boy said, “No, I should have the whole cake!” The second said, “No, we should share and share alike; half for you and half for me.” The first said, “No, I want the whole cake.” The ...
09:39:07 <shachaf> ... second said, “No, let us share it half and half.” Along came an adult who said: “Gentlemen, you shouldn’t fight about this; you should compromise. Give him three quarters of the cake.”»
09:39:57 <FreeFull> xkcd said we should compromise between pi and tau, and use 1.5pi
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09:59:56 <mroman> I'm actually all for Tau
10:00:43 <mroman> those pi-guys already won the fight.
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10:38:33 <FreeFull> Radius is more fundamental than diameter, although diameter is easier to measure in the real world
10:38:48 <FreeFull> Mathematics shouldn't be decided by the real world
10:38:59 <oerjan> (it might need context)
10:47:53 <FreeFull> oerjan: Heheh, she sure knows how to get things done
10:50:52 <oerjan> i'm more worried about clippy, he seems to have constructed a perverted zeroth law so might start harming humans.
10:51:11 <FreeFull> I am wondering how she's supposed to get out of an arctic compound
10:51:41 <oerjan> tricky. but sam should show up eventually.
10:51:52 <FreeFull> What will Sam do about the cold?
10:52:06 <FreeFull> Hopefully not something involving flamethrowers
10:52:13 <oerjan> something utterly ridiculous but effective, i expect
10:52:55 <FreeFull> People who don't read freefall have no idea what we're talking about
10:56:09 <FreeFull> Sam + Florence has proven itself to be a world-shaking combo
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11:59:18 <ion> ‘Director of the NSA Gen. Keith Alexander said on “60 Minutes” Sunday that […] people need to be held accountable for their actions.’ http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/17/dod-official-snowden-stole-everything-literally-everything/
12:09:02 <mroman> I recently read that a Boy who esentially drove over some people has been found not very guilty due to him "being rich and his parents did not teach him that actions have consequences therefore he could not have known better"
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13:10:00 <fizzie> There was also the fund manager who ran over a cyclist and avoided charges because getting convicted would "have some pretty serious job implications for someone in Mr. Erzinger’s profession".
13:10:10 <fizzie> Ran over and fled the scene, that is.
13:10:24 <fizzie> http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/08/wealthy-fund-manager-avoids-felony-charges-running-cyclist/
13:11:27 <fizzie> (The vague logic is that he can afford to pay restitution only if he doesn't lose his job.)
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13:46:28 <Taneb> Today's Freefall is great :)
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13:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> freefall continues to be not furry at all, nosiree, i see
13:52:38 <FreeFull> It has one anthropomorphic wolf
13:56:40 <boily> good Québec morning!
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13:57:07 <metasepia> CYQB 231330Z 07013G22KT 3SM -SNSG BR DRSN FEW008 OVC029 M09/M11 A3008 RMK SF2SC6 SLP191
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14:04:14 <Taneb> Any one have any advice regarding translating some Haskell code that relies on StateT (WriterT []) into Python?
14:06:53 <Taneb> I kind of wrote myself into a hole with that
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14:32:18 <FreeFull> Why are you translating it into Python?
14:33:06 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/97433
14:33:18 <Taneb> FreeFull, it's for a competition that has to be written in Python
14:33:50 <Taneb> I think in Haskell
14:34:06 <Taneb> If I had any idea how to write this in Python, I would have written it in Python
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16:00:43 <mroman> I could maybe help you
16:01:09 <mroman> but that's beyond my Haskell knowledge
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17:41:02 <boily> `relcome Edward___
17:41:07 <HackEgo> Edward___: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:41:41 <Edward___> And thanks! How to I reserve this name, so I'm not a noob every time I log on?
17:41:48 <boily> do we have an Italian `relcome?
17:44:43 <Edward___> Also, I don't think an Italian welcome would be of much worth to me, I know far too little ;)
17:44:57 <atriq> bonjourno, Edward___
17:46:07 <atriq> (I don't speak Italian, I'm afraid)
17:48:22 <boily> as always, someone on Earth is partaking in a delicious fternooner.
17:48:56 <atriq> boily: four simultaneous fternooners on a single rotation of the fternooner cube
17:50:59 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: I'm debugging the code..
17:54:42 <Edward___> So I'm trying to get that figured out
17:55:29 <LinearInterpol> A real challenge is to never use GDB until it compiles cleanly with -Wall -Werror --pedantic -std=c89
17:59:40 <Edward___> Is there a special end of line marker?
18:00:00 <Edward___> My code isn't properly reading the file, throwing an error when it hits the end of a line, before going to the next.
18:02:31 <Edward___> Man. I can't type today. Need coffee.
18:02:46 <Slereah_> Doesn't ASCII have a specific EOF character?
18:02:50 <Slereah_> Like in the control characters
18:02:58 <Edward___> I'm pretty sure you can just use EOF
18:03:55 <Edward___> But I may be wrong. Just started using C
18:04:37 <fizzie> The standard C macro EOF, and the ASCII control character EOF don't have all that much to do with each other.
18:05:35 <fizzie> I think some Windows context (streams open in text mode?) treats the ASCII EOF character as an actual end-of-file.
18:06:45 <Edward___> Once again, haven't had coffee yet.
18:06:53 <fizzie> Hrm, I guess the actual official ASCII name for ^Z is "SUB", but it's pretty often called EOF anyway.
18:07:38 <LinearInterpol> traditionally, anyway. Microsoft has alternate EOL chars.
18:08:14 <fizzie> If you're reading a text stream in C, it will translate whatever line-ending mechanism the system uses to what '\n' evaluates to.
18:09:54 <fizzie> (It doesn't need to be a particular character at all. I think at least VMS had a more record-structured standard text file format.
18:11:03 <Edward___> If I'm printing a printf statement onto a file, to print a character...
18:11:30 <Edward___> does fprintf(outf,"printf(\"\%c\",*ptr);\n");
18:11:59 <Edward___> I tried putchar, but that didn't work.
18:12:02 <fizzie> But fprintf(outf,"printf(\"%%c\",*ptr);\n"); would.
18:13:04 <fizzie> (You can't escape the % with a \, because \ is a string-literal-level construct, while you want to affect the behaviour of printf, which doesn't see the backslashes at all.)
18:13:12 <Edward___> Hm, same output as putchar. I need to do some work with data types...
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18:14:12 <fizzie> printf("%c", x) should be pretty close to putchar(x), yes.
18:14:35 <Edward___> I'm getting obscure symbols, and not the letters I want.
18:15:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, since you don't have any actual formatting going on, fputs("printf(\"%c\",*ptr);\n", outf); would've been a slightly easier way to write that printf statement.
18:15:36 <fizzie> fungot: What do you think, why the obscure symbols?
18:15:36 <fungot> fizzie: the whole point is that they are all delicately different languages so no surprise prolly does several tests starting saturday.
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18:18:49 <fizzie> (Hard to say much more than that without any further details.)
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18:19:57 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: I'm getting "r????2?????3(something weird), when it should say "Hello World"
18:20:10 <Edward___> does this have to do with text encoding? or just something wrong with data types.
18:20:29 <boily> Edward___: you're communicating with the Elder Ones. nothing to worry about.
18:21:42 <shachaf> Edward___: Your nick is really awful. :-( Can you pick something not so underscorey?
18:21:48 <Edward___> Okay one sec, I'll have to log off really quickly.
18:21:58 <Edward___> shachaf: and yes, I'll change it in a bit ;)
18:21:59 <shachaf> Reading a conversation between you and LinearInterpol especially is painful.
18:22:16 <fizzie> shachaf: I think you have to blame three other Edwards for that.
18:22:21 -!- Edward___ has quit (Quit: "One second...").
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18:23:14 <Edward___> It didn't ask for my password upon logging in...
18:23:49 <kmc> http://livegrep.com/search/linux?q=\b_________[a-z]
18:23:54 <kmc> typeof(*p) *_________p1 = (typeof(*p)*__force )ACCESS_ONCE(p);
18:24:01 <Bike> https://bitmonica.com meanwhile, in r bitcoin
18:24:22 <fizzie> (There's an edward, edward_ and edward__ already; hence the three underscores.)
18:24:49 <kmc> Bike: wait what is this even
18:25:37 <Edward___> LinearInterpol: http://pastebin.com/VaJjGJGb
18:26:18 <Edward___> Okay, how do I effectively...log in...
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18:28:30 <elliott> is this literally just a pyramid scheme
18:28:45 <shachaf> i think it's just a ponzi scheme
18:28:55 <kmc> maybe it's a fonzie scheme
18:29:07 <elliott> ~$97k has been invested in this... thing
18:29:08 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: someone hacked a site i use to redirect to it
18:29:08 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
18:29:20 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: reliable business here
18:30:42 <Bike> and yes, it's sexay kim possible art straight from deviantart
18:30:42 <Edward___> Okay, what's the command for changing nicks? One last time, promise.
18:30:43 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure that means you have to invest to get your site back
18:30:52 <Bike> Edward___: /nick
18:31:11 <fizzie> Edward___: You don't initialize your array in the generated C code.
18:31:21 -!- Edward___ has changed nick to Edwardz.
18:31:32 <shachaf> It should start with a lowercase letter.
18:31:39 <fizzie> Edwardz: So it will contain random garbage, and after doing the increments and decrements specified by the brainfuck code, it will be some other random garbage.
18:31:41 <Edwardz> fizzie: I was following the Wiki page for Brainf**k translation. I'll change that.
18:31:52 <fizzie> Edwardz: char array[100] = {0}; will work.
18:31:54 <shachaf> Your nick, I mean. That's how nicks work.
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18:32:18 <Edwardz> I like "Edwardz" because there are others. I'm the last.
18:32:53 <fizzie> LinearInterpol: No, I don't think I would. Why would you?
18:32:58 <shachaf> Yes, but "edward", "edward_", "edward__" all have a lowercase e in their nick.
18:34:07 <shachaf> Lowercase is how it goes here.
18:34:33 <fizzie> Edwardz: array[100] = {0} is quite a different thing than ptr={0}.
18:35:04 <Bike> http://datenform.de/forgot-your-password.html also
18:35:11 <elliott> shachaf: stop making stuff up about nicks
18:36:00 <LinearInterpol> fprintf(outf,"char array[100]={0};\nchar *ptr=array;\n");
18:36:21 <zzo38> I think it doesn't matter lowercase or uppercase, but, it is case insensitive due to the specification of IRC.
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18:38:55 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1tijj6/paul_krugman_disses_bitcoin_again/ce8dfsv
18:39:06 <Edwardz> LinearInterpol: thanks much!
18:39:18 <Edwardz> I need to remember to set to {0} if I want it at 0...
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18:39:31 <Edwardz> fizzie: Thanks to you, too!
18:39:37 <LinearInterpol> Edwardz: bear in mind that that notation is only valid in c99.
18:39:41 <Edwardz> thanks to the esolang community ;)
18:40:03 <Bike> damn establishment shills
18:40:32 <Edwardz> What would be the new equivalent
18:40:41 <ion> Cool, I can investigate an InvestigationTarget. http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/451782616472490608/1B00D268228AA5AD8C9E9343F793E5A3A12204BA/
18:40:51 <Edwardz> Oh, I thought there was a newer
18:41:40 <fizzie> No, I mean, what's "that notation"?
18:41:51 <Edwardz> http://pastebin.com/DNVkKshB
18:42:09 <kmc> i think the struct initializer = { .foo = 3, .bar = 4 } is new though
18:42:13 <Edwardz> before I clean up the code a bit and make it prettier, lighterweight, and add the ',' operator for brainfuck
18:42:20 <kmc> it's v. convenient b/c it sets the rest to 0
18:42:22 <fizzie> Compound literals are a thing involving {} that are new in C99, and designated initializers too, but basic array initialization is old as bones.
18:42:31 <ion> fizzie: The one C99 change i’m probably using the most is for (foo x = …; …; …) etc.
18:44:02 <fizzie> The code is C99 due to mixed declarations and code, but there's nothing C99 about the initializers.
18:44:22 <fizzie> And not even that in the generated code.
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18:47:07 <LinearInterpol> fizzie: You are.. correct. Array initializers are in C89, huh. Thought they were added in C99 along with struct initializers.
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18:49:36 <fizzie> Struct initializers are C89 too, just the designators are new.
18:50:00 <shachaf> remember that sometimes 0 is really -1 !!!
18:50:15 <shachaf> wait the only example i can think of is in c++
18:51:32 <Edwardz> I know nothing of c++... Only a bit of time though.
18:53:01 <fizzie> "A bit in time saves nine," they say.
18:54:09 <Edwardz> LinearInterpol: How would I turn this into an interpreter? Compile the code, then run the make and ./ commands?
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18:55:19 <Edwardz> So that all you do is run the program, without needing to do anything else?
18:55:54 <LinearInterpol> Replace your "run file" function's code with what you'd generate.
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18:59:00 <Edwardz> But for now, off to hike Stone Mountain, y'all enjoy yourselves!
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19:02:51 <Phantom_Hoover> all the questions are just 'how big is this boring number', not 'how well can you illustrate this ridiculous scenario'
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19:26:07 <zzo38> Some C99 features are also available in GNU89 mode, although some work a bit differently, and some features are different.
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19:30:40 <zzo38> I happen to like zero-length arrays, which is a GNU feature, and I don't like the flexible arrays.
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19:33:29 <zzo38> Zero-length arrays are a useful feature, mostly to use at the end of a structure definition, although you don't have to; it can occasionally be useful in the middle or something else instead.
19:34:02 <zzo38> I also think it is more sensible and doesn't require an exception to anything in order to implement.
19:34:28 <zzo38> It is more mathematically elegant.
19:34:47 <zzo38> GNU also supports zero-length structures, which is also just as sensible too, in my opinion.
19:39:19 <shachaf> zzo38: Those behave differently in GNU C and GNU C++, don't they?
19:40:25 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, I think that is correct. The way they work in C++ is no good in my opinion but if you program in C++ then that is what you use.
19:41:27 <LinearInterpol> shachaf: Since structures are effectively classes with their members set to public by default, empty structures act as empty classes, which is defined by the standard last I checked.
19:42:26 <LinearInterpol> C99 (iirc) was standard that fully defined empty structures for C.
19:44:16 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Unicode_Font_Initiative wait, so they have this, but multiocular o is official?
19:44:26 <LinearInterpol> It's been.. a while since I've looked at C99 or C89's standard.
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19:51:06 <zzo38> I have written what I would consider improvement to C standards; these improvements do not require any runtime support (except for some new numeric types, which *might* need it but can be emulated if needed), but much more things are done with macros now.
19:52:41 <zzo38> Including one thing that is kind of like C++ templates, but actually very differently.
19:56:00 <zzo38> I use different programming languages for different purposes. Yes, Forth is good too.
20:00:52 <mroman> https://bitbucket.org/mroman_/cobohl
20:01:01 <mroman> ^- that's what I'm gonna use in the future ;)
20:02:58 <zzo38> mroman: Might it be better if you also need quotation marks around the AUTHOR and NAME strings?
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20:20:32 <mroman> I'll just parse till end of line :)
20:20:44 <mroman> but I'm probably gonna switch to writing a haskell interpreter for it
20:20:47 <mroman> that's probably faster
20:20:57 <mroman> and I get garbage collection for free
20:21:31 <mroman> and ENTRYPOINT probably belongs into MODULE DIVISION
20:23:37 <mroman> the second name will have a new line in it
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20:40:32 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia. still vacationing under the sun?
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21:04:39 <oerjan> mroman: i think the fashionable thing is like http://xkcd.com/327/ hth
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21:22:28 <boily> uhm. is it me, or is CAO currently down?
21:22:48 <boily> it's me. can't type a simple 5-letter work.
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21:24:02 <boily> crawl.akrasiac.org.
21:26:14 <boily> yes. I'm an addict, and I accept that fact.
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21:30:15 <boily> I SELF PROCLAIM MY ADDICTION!
21:30:19 <boily> (also, I am sane.)
21:30:38 <HackEgo> "But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked. "Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
21:31:04 <ais523> I wonder if that's in the original INTERCAL manual
21:31:15 <ais523> err, the C-INTERCAL Revised manual
21:31:24 <ais523> one of the revisions was adding Alice in Wonderland quotes at the start of every chapter
21:31:28 <ais523> and that one seems to fit
21:31:53 <coppro> ais523: it's in the introduction
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22:17:27 <mauke> `run echo $'LET a = 0 + b' | ploki -MO=Deparse
22:18:59 <mauke> `run echo $'LETa+=c+@NOTc\na_"\nLETc b+@NOTb\nLETb a\nIF' | ploki
22:19:01 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
22:20:30 <mauke> `run echo $'LETa+=c+@NOTc\na_"\nLETc b+@NOTb\nLETb a\nIF' | ploki -MO=Deparse
22:20:32 <HackEgo> FOR x0 LET a += b + @NOT(b) \ WUNT (a _ "\n") \ LET b c + @NOT(c) \ LET c a \ NEXT x0
22:29:25 <ion> shachaf: http://heh.fi/tmp/LATIN_SMALL_LIGATURE_IJ.png
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