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01:27:36 <^v> why do you think
01:32:49 <coppro> this week in "dumb questions";
01:35:38 <Bike> oh, is that why it is.
01:59:59 <coppro> I was going to suggest that actually
02:08:34 <doesthiswork> oh there you are <^v> I was wondering where you had gone when I only saw ^v in the channel
02:14:01 <doesthiswork> wat isn't THAT esoteric but it's still interesting https://github.com/manuel/wat-js
02:14:28 <lexande> doesthiswork: i don't see <^v>, only < ^v>
02:15:31 <^v> nobody else has a space?
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02:40:57 <Bike> 19:40 < Barcode> i ended up spitting a wad of half-dry blood into the garbage like 15 minutes after i figured i stopped my bleed and my coworker just. stopped typing for a few seconds
02:41:01 <Bike> well, whatever.
02:45:38 <Sgeo> I think the idea of just passing around IOs and functions to IOs is starting to bother me
02:46:09 <Sgeo> What does an (a -> IO ()) do when you pass it an a? Whatever the heck it wants to! What do you mean, this one is supposed to trigger a bunch of event handlers?
02:48:29 <Bike> what does an a -> Num do when you pass it an a who knows
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03:07:36 <kmc> Sgeo: it doesn't do anything
03:08:05 <kmc> but as for the IO actions themselves, yes, the lack of type information about effects can be problematic
03:11:42 <elliott> you want event handlers to be able to do arbitrary IO anyway, generally
03:11:46 <elliott> so this is not a very good example
03:24:36 <Sgeo> In general, would using reactive-banana just for its AddHandler be a bad idea?
03:28:47 <kmc> there's always money in the banana stand
03:31:32 <Sgeo> So yeah... I'm pretty certain I'm going to bite the LastPass bullet soon
03:35:03 <Bike> "OpenSSL uses a custom freelist for connection buffers because long ago and far away, malloc was slow." so i think i'd like to declare a blood oath against C
03:35:52 <kmc> pfft C is easy, just don't make any mistakes ever
03:36:02 <kmc> you shouldn't be programming if you're the sort of person who would ever make a mistake
03:38:48 <Bike> also you have to hate the idea of standard libraries?
03:39:13 <Sgeo> What sort of vulnerabilities would crypto in Haskell be particularly likely to be vulnerable to, compared to liklihood of vulnerabilties of reimplementation in more conventional languages?
03:39:21 <Sgeo> Side-channel attacks based on timing?
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03:46:28 <pikhq> The amusing thing about this is, most of these bugs aren't entirely from C being bad, but from the coders being *profoundly moronic and awful*. With C just making the consequences of it worse.
03:48:48 <Sgeo> http://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/22p50z/sub400_btc_here_we_go/cgp0gwy
03:49:20 <Sgeo> Not commenting on the rest of it, but that $500/coin to mine figure, would the cost go down with fewer miners competing?
03:50:29 <kmc> others in the thread point this out
03:51:26 <kmc> the cost per GH/s won't go down, but the revenue per GH/s will go up
03:51:47 <kmc> or should that just be cost per GH? anyway
03:53:07 <HackEgo> toadcoin boudcoin falcoin sansiscoin libedtcoin whostepchcoin acfcoin consurfcoin zustcoin patncoin dnagecoin adnestcoin ntcmcoin eloopcoin attoacoin niedcoin revelacoin smyrmatinucoin golcoin devcoin
03:53:30 <Sgeo> So much for being unregulatable. One government's actions is enough to drastically hurt the price
03:53:52 <kmc> which actions are those
03:54:26 <Sgeo> http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/04/10/bitcoin-prices-down-10-after-chinese-banks-cut-off-local-exchanges/
03:54:34 <kmc> I thought that happened months ago
03:54:38 <kmc> I guess something new happened
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03:55:09 <lexande> it was always super volatile
03:55:25 <Sgeo> "To be fair, if 1 BTC equaled 390 BTC that wouldn't be bad for bitcoin at all."
03:55:29 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/22q9tr/when_bitcoin_drops_to_390_btc_one_man_dares_to/
03:56:06 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/ZNN5zrn.png good point
03:58:26 <Sgeo> It would be nice if the technical stuff behind bitcoin allowed it to be useful without it being a vehicle for continuous speculation
03:58:54 <Sgeo> There may be something good about having a cryptocurrency, but I don't think 'wild price changes you may get lucky on' is it
04:00:03 <kmc> i mean, that's something more specific than continuous speculation
04:00:08 <kmc> every market has continuous speculation
04:00:20 <Jafet> If you trade bitcoin in real life, its exchange rate will move in real life
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04:02:09 <Sgeo> Is StartSSL still evil?
04:02:39 <pikhq> More so than usual with the recent Heartbleed issue.
04:02:59 <Sgeo> I didn't consider it evil before Heartbleed
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04:03:31 <pikhq> It still disincentivizes good security practices, it just happens to have not been very relevant until just now. :)
04:05:23 <Sgeo> The non-existence of free certs also isincentivizes good security practices
04:05:28 <Sgeo> *disincentivizes
04:05:45 <pikhq> It's more the complete and utter insanity of the CA system that does that.
04:06:09 <pikhq> "Trust is hard. So trust this list of companies ENTIRELY!" is just... insane.
04:08:36 <kmc> i,i "truth is hard, so trust these axioms entirely!"
04:09:09 <Jafet> Free certs, are you suggesting we should lower the cost of someone jacking your router from $20 to zero
04:10:04 <kmc> routerjacking.xxx
04:10:40 <Bike> yeah, sure would suck if mathematicians dedicated themselves to finding the Right axioms
04:10:46 <Bike> anyway What Is Life is p. good i recommend it
04:13:09 <doesthiswork> there is an online catagory theory demonstrator
04:13:47 <doesthiswork> http://www.j-paine.org/cgi-bin/webcats/webcats.php
04:14:45 <elliott> Jafet: StartSSL free certs are already accepted by the major OSes/browsers, afaik
04:16:25 <Sgeo> Does LastPass have a feature to import saved Chrome passwords?
04:16:28 <Sgeo> That would be convenient
04:20:18 <kmc> I'm still waiting for Honest Lexande's Discount Certificates
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04:21:15 <Jafet> Yeah, I should clear out root certs here
04:21:23 <Jafet> Maybe I should remove all root certs
04:21:34 <Jafet> And use certpatrol manually
04:22:01 <Jafet> But first, any root that signs intermediates
04:22:58 <kmc> `run openssl genrsa -out /tmp/root-ca.key 4096
04:22:59 <HackEgo> WARNING: can't open config file: /usr/lib/ssl/openssl.cnf \ Generating RSA private key, 4096 bit long modulus \ ..........++ \ .++ \ e is 65537 (0x10001)
04:23:04 <elliott> you might even succeed in making SSL annoying enough to use that you just use http intsead
04:24:53 <Bike> hey has anyone noticed that statistical mechanics is balls out crazy
04:26:04 <Jafet> elliott: to be fair http://i.imgur.com/jfGMMyL.png
04:28:40 <kmc> military grade cryptography
04:29:05 <kmc> the default is 1024 bits :'(
04:29:41 <Bike> whast's wrong with 1024
04:30:10 <Bike> but it's like, ovre twice as much as 400 bits
04:30:18 <shachaf> kmc would prefer 2048 bits
04:31:35 <maurer> The real thing that surprises me with default military grade being 1024 is that it's not like it would be that expensive for them to say "1024 is accepted but all new keys are 4096"
04:32:59 <Jafet> You don't understand, "military grade" just means "iraqi rebels can't hack into our drones using 20-year-old PCs"
04:33:11 <Jafet> It also sometimes means "RAM heatsinks"
04:33:37 <Bike> important to stay warm
04:34:12 <kmc> japanese solid capacitors
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05:28:58 <Sgeo> If Heartbleed is 11 on a scale of 1-10, what is 'mathematicians have found a very fast way to factor any number' be?
05:29:50 <Bike> well, factorization could be in P without P = NP, right?
05:30:15 <Bike> so you could base a cryptosystem on discrete log or w/e right
05:30:45 <coppro> like elliptic curve crypto
05:30:48 <kmc> RSA is pretty widely used though
05:30:50 <Bike> i guess "RSA doesn't work" would still be pretty bad, practically speaking, huh
05:31:10 <coppro> it would be pretty bad. but not nearly as bad as "private key crypto doesn't wokr
05:31:40 <kmc> but it's a lot worse than everyone's private keys getting leaked once
05:34:35 <Bike> «Note that this final London equation does not contain instantaneous dipoles (see molecular dipoles). The "explanation" of the dispersion force as the interaction between two such dipoles was invented after London arrived at the proper quantum mechanical theory.» can someone explain to me how chemistry, the science, is even possible
05:35:46 <coppro> Bike: btw you would like quantum crypto
05:36:09 <Bike> that's not a joke or anything it just doesn't seem like i would
05:39:36 <Bike> i'm reading a seminontechnical schrodinger thing and he more or less gave up on explaining quantum jumps except that they happen, it kind of rules
05:41:27 <kmc> i like post-quantum crypto
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05:49:31 <coppro> Bike: not totally sure
05:50:03 <Bike> right now i would like to understand stat mechanics. it seems slightly different from quantum crypto, but then it is connected to info theory...
06:00:30 <Slereah_> Statistical mechanics doesn't use much information theory
06:00:43 <Slereah_> Just that you try to guess at the microstates from the macrostate
06:01:39 * Bike points at szilard engine
06:01:45 <Slereah_> And the lack of knowledge between the two is basically what constitutes entropy
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06:14:11 <Sgeo> http://copy.sh/v24/
06:16:21 <Bike> oh, right. and chemical entropy is shannon entropy times boltzmann.
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06:32:03 <kmc> not the preferred nomenclature
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06:34:02 <Bike> "continually sucking orderliness"
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07:00:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rebmu]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39283 * Zom-B * (+2118) Created page with "Rebmu is an esoterical code-[[golf]] dialect of Rebol, made by HostileFork. ==Overview== The underlying language is case-insensitive, so it uses CAPSalternationTOseparateTOKE..."
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07:03:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rebmu]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39284&oldid=39283 * Zom-B * (+263)
07:06:12 <fizzie> I don't know if I should try to smuggle that ^ wiki update bridge into the start script of HackEgo, or if that would be presumptuous, or if it's even a good idea in general.
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07:46:27 <Bike> http://xkcd.com/1354/ So how accurate is this
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07:50:40 <kmc> "Lactarius xanthogalactus" is a pretty effing cool name
07:53:11 <kmc> yellow-milked milk-cap
07:53:22 <Bike> xantho is yellow, not weird
07:53:30 <kmc> Bike knows
07:53:42 <Bike> well i got no idea about galactus
07:53:46 <Bike> other than the planet eater dude
07:55:22 <Taneb> Well, "Galaxy" is from the greek for milky way
07:55:29 <Taneb> I mean, literally "Milky Way"
07:56:00 <kmc> yes TIL as well
07:56:07 <kmc> though it sounds like the kind of thing I would have known and forgotten
07:56:23 <kmc> but really isn't all learning just remembering
07:56:40 <Bike> going for the double greek, are we
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08:53:37 <cool> hey did you guys see the european open source meeting talk?
08:55:06 <cool> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jQoAYRKqhg
08:58:27 <cool> openssl is dead
09:09:00 <int-e> I wouldn't bet on it
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10:29:18 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Side-channel attacks based on timing? <-- that's my hunch anyway.
10:30:03 <oerjan> assuming an attacker cannot also track memory use.
10:30:49 <fizzie> I think I've read about things like cache-timing attacks on AES.
10:31:03 <fizzie> Which I guess would be a subclass of "memory use".
10:31:43 <oerjan> fizzie: btw i left out the context that this was about haskell
10:31:52 <oerjan> which is safe in so many other ways.
10:32:29 <fizzie> That's all right, since I did see the context.
10:33:29 <oerjan> that's like tracking memory use _via_ time use...
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10:52:13 <fizzie> These spam emails from (predominantly Chinese) manufacturers of this and that (mostly) industrial thing are curious.
10:52:35 <fizzie> One wouldn't assume them to have much of a success rate, but maybe it's a large enough epsilon to be worth it.
10:53:42 <fizzie> (Or maybe they have some other purpose. Does anyone know?)
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10:55:01 <fizzie> Here's a sample I just got, delivered to an obviously-harvested-from-web role address just now: http://sprunge.us/ceGW
10:55:46 <oerjan> they're secretly commands to the chinese hacker botnets, they're just sent indiscriminately so no one will notice where the real machines are hth
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11:15:34 <int-e> fizzie: that reminds me of http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/opinion/sunday/the-cybercrime-wave-that-wasnt.html?_r=0
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11:53:25 <oerjan> @tell Jafet before `reverting, you should check that your command actually changed something, otherwise you'll revert the previous change instead.
11:59:23 <Jafet> I see, /tmp isn't tracked
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13:55:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39285&oldid=39247 * 88.162.181.62 * (+9)
14:06:38 <fizzie> That can't be right, but I don't have time to look into it right now.
14:07:01 <fizzie> (They added "F#" to the language list, but that just works out as a link to F.)
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14:30:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Smartboxes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39286&oldid=39274 * Oerjan * (+95) Move signature to end, question
14:35:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39287&oldid=39285 * Oerjan * (-9) Undo revision 39285 by [[Special:Contributions/88.162.181.62|88.162.181.62]] ([[User talk:88.162.181.62|talk]]) (Not esoteric, and the page is not about it.)
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17:11:16 <fizzie> Grumble frumble mips-elf-objdump doesn't have a similar "use information from DYNAMIC phdr entry instead" flag that mips-elf-readelf has; it can't disassemble these binaries at all. (I've used readelf + dd-with-offsets + objdump -b binary as a workaround, but it's very uncomfortable.)
17:13:09 <fizzie> (For one thing, I need to manually cross-reference all GOT offsets and such.)
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17:49:01 <mroman> Does anyone have experience with compiling BASIC-like Languages to languages without computed gotos?
17:49:11 <mroman> http://codepad.org/ib8s3lEB <- this approach works
17:49:29 <mroman> but it's prone to stack overflows
17:52:30 <mroman> I also figured I could keep a list of delegates
17:52:41 <mroman> which tell's me which function I have to call next
17:53:09 <mroman> that way I could probably avoid that
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17:54:30 <fizzie> There's the single-function giant-dispatcher approach.
17:56:32 <int-e> there is the Statement s = LINE1; while (!quit) { s = s.invoke(); } approach.
17:58:37 <fizzie> You could also adopt something like the "Cheney on the M.T.A." trick, but it's perhaps not that doable in C#.
17:59:12 <mroman> http://codepad.org/eSHjKVYa <- this works
17:59:57 <mroman> keeping a list of delegates. and a GOTO changes the index of the next called function
18:00:25 <mroman> (and no GOTO just increases the index)
18:01:01 <zzo38> To do something similar I have just used a case block, where the labels are just case and goto is replaced by an assignment and then continue the outer loop.
18:04:57 <mroman> I think I can have this thing going by tomorrow :D
18:05:35 <mroman> aka Write Yourself a crappy BASIC compiler in a day :)
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18:18:47 <HackEgo> imminicoin lnncoin greocoin nyrcoin alpitchcoin smalcoin fortcoin anemailwariathcoin theshccoin chercoin grapecoin wheecoin fernacoin son-textenchcoin longcoin balcoin lintolercoin nesancoin sfulcoin empiuertcoin
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18:40:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smartboxes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39288&oldid=39278 * Zerk * (+10) Clarified indentation slightly; "[same _Y _Y]" is my new favourite way to specify letrec XD
19:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nock]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39289 * Zerk * (+1425) TODO: actual article. I think copying the official docs wouldn't be a license conflict?
19:01:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Smartboxes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39290&oldid=39286 * Zerk * (+415)
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20:38:03 <doesthiswork> what would be a good name for a language based on a statemachine that can be in an arbitrary superposition of states?
20:38:52 <Bike> powerstate machine
20:39:09 <Bike> because the state is actually out of the powerset of states, rather than the set, see
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20:42:32 <Bike> probability assigned to each state?
20:44:19 <Bike> Does this involve a priesT?
20:45:20 <doesthiswork> its state is holographic so it responds in proportion to how similar it's current state is to the set of states
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21:49:35 <kmc> I found one case in Rust where let mut x = ...; f(x) can end up modifying x
21:51:03 <kmc> that's one of the worst things about C++, and Rust generally avoids it
21:51:23 <kmc> well I don't know, there's a lot of competition for "worst things about C++"
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22:15:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Nock]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39291 * Doesthiswork * (+172) Created page with "After reading about the Urbit project, Nock and Hoon are definitely esoteric ~~~~"
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22:26:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Doesthiswork]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39292 * Doesthiswork * (+763) notes on holographic reduced representation
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22:49:07 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/111605401594472745199/posts/BBarZAT9wCM
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23:10:15 <oerjan> argh easter is next week
23:11:48 * oerjan wows never to trust shop assistants again
23:13:12 <oerjan> (because of this, i might have sent flowers to someone who is already on vacation)
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