00:00:38 <Sgeo> What happens if you mutate the slice by a similar method itself
00:00:48 <Sgeo> "foo"["fo"]["f"] = "g"
00:01:00 <Sgeo> Does it become goo?
00:01:02 <Bike> what's "abababab"["abab"] = "baba" do.
00:01:33 <Bike> but after the trauma the distribution changed
00:01:54 <monotone> Sgeo: Doesn't work because foo["fo"] returns a copy of the string.
00:02:00 <Bike> that's all i wrote, if that's what you mean
00:02:21 <monotone> So when you subsequently slice ["f"] and assign to it you mutate the copy, which is immediately discarded.
00:02:23 <Bike> i'm not sure how closely i am expected to summarize twenty thirty year old pages
00:02:30 <Sgeo> So the thing that imperative languages used to find more comfortable than Haskell isn't actually that more comfortable in Ruby
00:02:30 <Bike> to people who don't really have any reason to care
00:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i just assumed it was going somewhere from the general drive
00:03:23 <Bike> no. mostly 108 dB for two hours is more or less torture
00:03:47 <Sgeo> Suddenly I feel more ethical
00:03:55 <Sgeo> Norns aren't conscious as far as we know
00:04:06 <Bike> "neither are cats, so it's cool"
00:04:12 <monotone> Bike: Replaces the first occurrence.
00:04:16 <Bike> anyway ethics hadn't been invented yet, so it's fine
00:05:03 <monotone> It works a lot like Python's slice syntax, in theory. Like, you can do a[1:3] = [4,5,6].
00:05:17 <monotone> String and regex slices return the span of their first match.
00:05:57 <Sgeo> Starting to think one of the big problems with mutation is it gives too much choice. Choice whether to return copy, original thing, choice what elements or subelements of a thing are mutable or not
00:05:59 <Bike> monotone: that is so boring :(
00:06:13 <Sgeo> Whereas with immutability everywhere, the API design is forced on you in that respect
00:09:05 <Sgeo> Probably Ruby's the wrong language to look at if I want 'constrains API design to make it easier and make people more likely to make idiomatic APIs'
00:10:44 <monotone> Ruby does have the convention of "!" methods versus non-"!" methods.
00:11:13 <monotone> So String#gsub! changes the original string and String#gsub returns a copy.
00:15:13 <zzo38> I think now I got Lemon to be able to parse the grammar G6 if a %split_states command is specified.
00:15:25 <zzo38> I read the book more carefully and now I did it.
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00:39:27 <boily> help. I just played a few games of Android Netrunner against the Pouti and I want more!
00:48:08 <boily> Gregor: HACKEGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
00:48:32 <boily> Sgeo: my brother. he was in the chännel a few times. you can get some infos on him in the Infamous PDF.
01:00:23 <Sgeo> "TcpSocket and SslSocket do not name their read and write methods the same thing."
01:00:40 <Sgeo> I'm guessing this sort of thing wasn't magically fixed in Ruby 2.0? This blog post was written in 2013
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01:24:07 <brrr> website is down?
01:29:36 <Gregor> Not responding to SSH either.
01:29:37 <Gregor> I'll send it a hard reboot.
01:32:52 <Gregor> Well, the admin panel's down.
01:33:09 <Gregor> Cloudatcost: Pay zero per month, get what you pay for.
01:35:02 <elliott> Gregor: oh, right, I saw a thing about everyone's cloudatcost vpses going down
01:35:21 <elliott> ...esolangs.org is on cloudatcost?
01:37:34 <Sgeo> Oh hey I have a cloudatcost account
01:37:43 <Sgeo> I should use it. When CloudAtCost is stable again
01:42:05 <Sgeo> Or I could just look for another host
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02:03:21 <brrr> I guess I could always use the cached versions
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02:49:49 <Sgeo> "If you’re using Rails and you want to be secure, you should be protecting against mass assignment. Basically, without declaring attr_accessible or attr_protected, malicious users can set any column value in your database, including foreign keys and secure data."
02:50:04 <Sgeo> Why not do the opposite, attr_assignable or something?
02:50:21 <Sgeo> Is this sort of thinking a major part of Ruby culture? That's scary
02:56:31 <Bike> did you know that during the battle of stalingrad, ten thousand people died per day, including many civilians of starvation
03:04:55 <sebbu> Sgeo, reminds me of some class vs struct C++ debates
03:06:52 <sebbu> (basically, struct default visibility is public, class default visibility is private)
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03:37:38 <zzo38> Well, at least in C it would seem to make more sense to put the public members first, although I don't know how it works in C++.
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03:50:45 <zzo38> I have a Scream Tracker file in my computer where one instrument is labeled "* Hit Alt-V Here (in ST3) *". I don't have ST3, but looking at the waveform it is clearly an ASCII text file encoded as signed data. However, looking in a hex editor it contains unsigned sample data; doing a sign conversion I was able to read it.
03:51:03 <zzo38> But, why is it done like this, the text is encoded as signed data even though the file is unsigned?
03:51:46 <Bike> putting waveforms in ascii sounds weird
03:52:12 <zzo38> No, I mean one of the instrument data is actually a ASCII text file rather than audio data.
03:53:02 <zzo38> But from looking at the waveform, it is clear that it is ASCII data. However, somehow it got mixed up due to sign converison; I don't know why?
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04:28:47 <Sgeo> Is Ruby's begin like Scheme's begin?
04:31:22 <zzo38> How difficult might it be to make something in a C compiler so that you can write: if(__builtin_optimize_fork()) x=4; and then it causes undefined behaviour if x is nonvolatile and its value is not four, at this point in the program?
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05:38:21 <fowl> Sgeo, begin is a try block
05:38:38 <fowl> er its like try{}catch{} in other languages
05:39:01 <Sgeo> So why did I see source code that didn't use it like tht?
05:39:27 <fowl> there is also =begin/=end block comments
05:39:31 <Sgeo> https://github.com/sinatra/sinatra/blob/master/lib/sinatra/base.rb#L24
05:41:05 <fowl> its not needed there
05:42:23 <shachaf> puzzle: what does "begin ... end while ..." mean
05:43:29 <fowl> shachaf, thats a postfix while condition :)
05:44:23 <fowl> puts("empty the trash") while File.exists?("~/.trash")
05:45:37 <fowl> (print "."; sleep 1) while true
05:45:47 <shachaf> hint: "begin foo end while bar" isn't the same as "foo while bar"
05:46:45 <shachaf> why are you even here anyway
05:46:47 <fowl> begin/end, foo, they're just expressions
05:47:44 <fowl> i was sent from the future to give you a note but you aren't getting it now
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08:16:10 <fizzie> I don't know what's up.
08:16:11 <elliott> the site got back up a while ago
08:16:16 <elliott> or do you just mean hackego
08:16:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hug: not found
08:18:05 <fizzie> That was exceedingly slow.
08:18:23 <fizzie> Which is weird, since my SSH connection is working normally.
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09:29:55 <oerjan> fizzie: i think the wiki link may be broken
09:33:32 <fizzie> Oh, you mean the IRC announcement thing?
09:34:15 <fizzie> That seems to be correct.
09:35:02 <oerjan> zzo38: i added your name to the Ligature Machine article
09:35:09 <fizzie> I have possibly restarted it.
09:35:15 <fizzie> We'll see if it helped.
09:36:55 <fizzie> ffmpeg being helpful: "[output stream 0:0 @ 0x3ad1120] 100 buffers queued in output stream 0:0, something may be wrong."
09:49:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40139&oldid=40138 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Commutative Ligature Machine */ fursur a misspelling
09:55:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40140&oldid=40114 * Oerjan * (+10) I'd like to boldly underscore that alain turning never capitalized his name
10:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40141&oldid=40136 * Oerjan * (+31) bold, author, spacing
10:05:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40142&oldid=40121 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Implementation */ more wikified
10:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meander/Implementation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40143&oldid=40122 * Oerjan * (+35) author, backlink
10:09:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish/Implementation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40144&oldid=40127 * Oerjan * (+4) backlink
10:12:01 <mroman> are there names for foldl (-) and foldl (/)?
10:12:12 <mroman> foldl (+) is sum and foldl (*) is product
10:12:20 <mroman> but what's foldl (-) / foldl (/) called?
10:13:09 <oerjan> you're basically summing all but the first element and then subtracting from the first
10:13:23 <mroman> subtracting everything from the first
10:13:48 <oerjan> basically foldl (-) x l == x - sum l
10:14:16 <oerjan> so not immensely useful
10:14:29 <oerjan> and foldl (/) is the same for product
10:15:23 <mroman> so nobody has given those a useful name
10:15:24 <oerjan> if it were foldr you would at least be alternating. but also blowing stack.
10:16:24 <oerjan> it's like, sum and product are useful because (+) and (*) are monoid operations
10:16:35 <oerjan> and (-) and (/) are not
10:16:51 <lambdabot> (Monoid m, Foldable t) => t m -> m
10:19:47 <oerjan> this apartment complex is having a meeting to establish house rules. despite my hopeless sleeping cycle i am slightly tempted to go just to _ensure_ the paragraph about not letting your animals annoy the neighbors gets passed exactly as it's in the draft.
10:20:10 <oerjan> (see: that bloody dog)
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11:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40145&oldid=40130 * Oerjan * (+8) /* Sample programs */ I'll just subtract these links from ehird's payment
11:15:08 <elliott> quintopia: give me and oerjan bitcoins
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11:19:01 <elliott> you don't do valuable wiki edits, sorry
11:24:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spacechem Programming Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40146&oldid=40132 * Oerjan * (+16) To boldly stub
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11:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40147&oldid=40135 * Oerjan * (+44) boldly stub the author
11:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RCEM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40148&oldid=19979 * Oerjan * (-8) boldly follow policy
11:31:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RCEM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40149&oldid=40148 * Oerjan * (-12) unsanctioned sectioning
11:31:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[X plus plus]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40150&oldid=37906 * Oerjan * (-7) boldly dis-secting
11:32:22 <oerjan> the wiki is taking bloody long to reload the pages
11:32:37 <elliott> that's because it's running on a $0/month vps
11:34:01 <elliott> fizzie: is php fpm having problems?
11:34:04 <elliott> getting gateway timeout errors
11:34:22 <elliott> I hope the cache and everything is still working :)
11:34:24 <oerjan> oh whatever let it just keep those extraneous blank lines
11:35:01 <elliott> oerjan: um... http://esolangs.org/wiki/X%2B%2B http://esolangs.org/wiki/X_plus_plus
11:35:27 <elliott> I see, I need to do a history merge.
11:36:24 <oerjan> i suppose me dos'ing the wiki with my customary self-diff check doesn't help.
11:36:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[X++]]": Deleted to make way for move from "[[X plus plus]]"
11:36:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ehird * moved [[X plus plus]] to [[X++]]: shfoop
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11:37:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Ehird * moved [[Talk:X plus plus]] to [[Talk:X++]]: shfoop
11:38:02 <elliott> it's just really, really slow
11:38:15 <oerjan> my diffs loaded, anyway
11:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ehird * restored "[[X++]]": 3 revisions restored: bop
11:39:17 <elliott> cool messed up history now
11:42:50 <elliott> arguably I could have just moved X++ to X++/crap or something
11:42:54 <elliott> feel free to figure out how to do that move if you want :)
11:44:15 <oerjan> elliott: are you saying _both_ pages existed and neither was a redirect? :(
11:44:41 <oerjan> i am pretty sure my edit did not do all this http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=X%2B%2B&diff=40150&oldid=38198
11:45:01 <elliott> the weird diffs result from mediawiki having a linear view of history.
11:45:10 <elliott> so you just see the diff to the previous chronological edit
11:46:55 <elliott> the history can be split again if you really care
11:47:01 <elliott> but it sort of seems a fitting punishment for an article this bad
11:47:06 <elliott> and you can of course diff the right two revisions manually
11:47:09 <elliott> erm, the article isn't bad
11:47:13 <elliott> but the state of having two of them was.
11:52:08 <oerjan> it's like hard to tell what _happened_ with the histories merged, you know.
11:53:46 <elliott> history splits look like a pain thouuuugh
11:53:57 <elliott> you could just re-delete the revisions from the old article.
11:54:20 <elliott> I've been up for about 24 hours, I can't deal with more than one finnicky mediawiki thing
11:54:31 <oerjan> yes, but i have to find which ones that _are_ before doing it. sheesh.
11:55:26 <oerjan> although can i assume the messages above mean the old article only had three revisions?
11:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of revisions on page [[X++]]: Leftover revisions from botched history merge
11:57:54 <elliott> the history merged wasn't botched!
11:57:58 <elliott> you just didn't like it :P
11:58:13 <elliott> btw, change visibility is wrong
11:58:22 <elliott> that's used for hiding things like offensive edits and personal information
11:58:34 <elliott> (it's wikipedia's "oversight" role)
11:58:47 <elliott> but you owe me some bitcoins, okay?
11:59:06 <oerjan> you can have the ones quintopia owes me
11:59:08 <elliott> for future reference you go into delete
11:59:29 <elliott> okay you might have to delete the whole page and then restore the ones you want (sigh)
11:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ehird * Ehird changed visibility of revisions on page [[X++]]: brrrrrrk
12:00:29 <elliott> it's fun to do this when nothing loads
12:01:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ehird * deleted "[[X++]]": tptptptptptpptpttpppppppppppp
12:02:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ehird * restored "[[X++]]": 18 revisions restored: glorp top blop
12:04:41 <elliott> this is going to be a great edit I'm going to make sometime within the next 18 hours
12:05:28 <oerjan> oh well now it's not loading at all
12:05:54 <oerjan> i was sort of going to do a little more cleanup afterward
12:08:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[X++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40155&oldid=40151 * Ehird * (-22) bubbles idly. Let's eat the silk road
12:11:05 <oerjan> fun thing, my own edit to X++ now longer shows in recent changes
12:15:19 <elliott> did I delete it by accident?
12:15:35 <oerjan> no, it just isn't listed
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15:28:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode/Doublecode]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40156 * GermanyBoy * (+10953) Created page with "'''Doublecode''' is a twocode interpreter by [[User:GermanyBoy]] in Sve. == Usage == Interpreter reads lines from the standard input until a line with text "EOF" is encounte..."
15:29:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode/Doublecode]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40157&oldid=40156 * GermanyBoy * (+4) link
15:29:59 <mroman> Damn Strings are still messy :(
15:30:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Twocode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40158&oldid=40071 * GermanyBoy * (-8) /* (summary/infobox) */ doublecode
15:30:25 <mroman> The idea was to have Strings just be lists of integers
15:30:50 <mroman> but then I don't know whether to print {65 66} or AB
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16:09:11 <mroman> @ask oerjan There's a policy?
16:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40159&oldid=40141 * 92.105.82.69 * (-1) freezed -> frozen
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16:12:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taworvor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40160&oldid=40147 * Feuermonster * (+197)
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16:52:13 <ion> mroman: Erlang has that exact problem.
17:11:36 <Sgeo> CloudAtCost is losing the locks of their fiber channel locking technology, according to them.
17:11:50 <Sgeo> Sounds Dilbertesque, like misplacing the token of a token ring
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17:12:19 <Sgeo> "CloudAtCost has been experiencing extended storage outages due to the underlying Fiber channel Locking technology. Since our environment has grown so large we are constantly getting lost locks which is a manual process for us to track down and fix where the process of fixing one virtual server can take up to 15-20 minutes."
17:12:31 <mroman> ion: I flag Lists as String now
17:13:11 <mroman> however, you can add a list to a list flagged as a string
17:13:23 <mroman> it's not something anybody should do, but it can be done
17:17:09 <zzo38> Apparently the following COBOL program generates 570 error messages: PROGRAM-ID. ERRMSG. Is this some kind of test function in the compiler?
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18:21:12 <Sgeo> zzo38: there isn't even an identification division?
18:21:36 <Sgeo> What happens if you change it from ERRMSG to something else?
18:23:40 <tswett> Sgeo: lemme send you something I wrote.
18:24:23 <tswett> Sgeo: http://pastebin.ca/2820574
18:24:34 <tswett> This is a joke one, of course.
18:25:54 <Sgeo> Some kind of animal that's split in parts?
18:26:16 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know; I only read elsewhere that that is the case. I don't know what happen in other cases, but apparently that one line is the entire program.
18:26:28 <tswett> Sgeo: have you read the entire thing?
18:27:21 <Sgeo> Yes, but can't really visualize it. Insertion behavior sounds like normal eating, discharge behavior sounds like pooping
18:27:37 <Bike> it's three animals
18:28:08 <Bike> two humans and a blowup doll
18:28:10 <Bike> well, whatever
18:28:20 <Sgeo> I conceptualized -C as some sort of detatchable rear end
18:29:13 <Sgeo> I don't think humans have those, but pretty sure I'm just misvisualizing the whole thing
18:29:41 <tswett> Each of the three objects is a separate human.
18:30:30 <ion> tswett: ‘by an opaque "skin"’ – i’d suggest ‘by an opaque surface’
18:30:39 <Bike> oh, two humans and a kid
18:30:42 <Bike> well, gross, either way
18:30:45 <Sgeo> Oh! -A and -B are babies, -C is breastfeeding -A?
18:30:56 <tswett> -C is the baby and -A is breastfeeding -C.
18:30:58 <ion> Babies are 170 centimeters in length?
18:31:00 <Bike> oh. kid. better
18:31:13 <Bike> ion: c is 50 cm it says
18:31:35 <Sgeo> I think the word its confused me
18:32:22 <tswett> I'm going to continue writing.
18:33:48 <ion> Very nice so far.
18:46:04 <coppro> SCP-1960-J is pretty excellent
18:47:25 <tswett> I've seen the phrase "XK-class end-of-the-world scenario" a few times.
18:47:37 <tswett> Are there non-XK-class end-of-the-world scenarios or XK-class non-end-of-the-world scenarios?
18:48:14 <Bike> yeah. there's CK and stuff.
18:48:32 <Bike> and "SK-class dominance shift" i think it is, where another species becomes dominant over humans
18:49:52 <Bike> ah, here's a sort of list on 1985
18:49:55 <Bike> «The list of distinct scenarios (without duplicates, and following the Jackson K-Class Classification System) includes ███ XK-class Type Alpha (scorched earth) end of the world scenarios, ███ XK-class Type Omega (religious) end of the world scenarios, ███ AK-class "madness" end of the world scenarios, ██ EK-class "consciousness-loss" end of the world scenarios, ███ NK-class "grey goo" end of the world scenarios,
18:50:04 <Bike> «The list of distinct scenarios (without duplicates, and following the Jackson K-Class Classification System) includes ███ XK-class Type Alpha (scorched earth) end of the world scenarios, ███ XK-class Type Omega (religious) end of the world scenarios, ███ AK-class "madness" end of the world scenarios, ██ EK-class "consciousness-loss" end of the world scenarios, ███ NK-class "grey goo" end of the world ...
18:50:10 <Bike> ... scenarios, ███ CK-class restructuring scenarios, ███ RK-class "out-competition" restructuring scenarios, ███ SK-class dominance shift scenarios, ███ IK-class collapse of global civilization scenarios, [DATA EXPUNGED]»
18:50:36 <coppro> you could have jus tlinked it?
18:50:52 <Bike> it's in the middle of the page.
18:51:13 <Bike> i also remember zk reality failure
18:53:23 <zzo38> Shouldn't it be better to put in the alphabetical orders?
18:54:16 <Sgeo> Why do I buy breath strips?
18:54:26 <Sgeo> They're so addictive
18:54:43 <Sgeo> Pretty sure I'm going to burn my tongue and stomach off
18:54:55 <tswett> Better than cigarettes.
18:56:15 <Sgeo> And getting 1 hour of sleep each night is better than dying in a car crash.
19:04:27 <Sgeo> I just ate 24 breath strips
19:08:01 <tswett> http://pastebin.ca/2820590 – okay, this is as long as it's going to get.
19:08:31 <tswett> I might actually want to remove the part about food.
19:08:55 <tswett> I definitely want that last sentence to stay at the end.
19:16:27 <zzo38> Is there a program that a commutative ligature-counter machine is capable of but that either one individually cannot?
19:17:44 <tswett> I searched Google for 'ligature counter machine'. The top result is an article titled "Accidental Ligature Strangulation by an Ironing Machine".
19:17:56 <zzo38> No it is only in the esolang wiki
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20:07:07 <lambdabot> mroman asked 3h 57m 56s ago: There's a policy?
20:07:22 <oerjan> @tell mroman http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Policy
20:07:22 <zzo38> Do you like a tsume shogi game?
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20:25:37 <mroman> I guess I'll be removing that comma then .
20:39:24 <oerjan> mroman: also i don't know if you got the part of the discussion where i mentioned my last edit to X++ didn't show up in recent changes after that merging mess.
20:40:58 <oerjan> (it's still in the page history though)
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20:44:09 <oerjan> elliott: all these new language/interpreter pages make it almost look like we should enable main space subpages.
20:44:29 <oerjan> hm _now_ elliott is idle.
20:48:00 <oerjan> taworvor, the language with only ugly types
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21:20:01 <b_jonas> you think it will be down to penalty shots?
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21:49:41 <Sgeo> "There’s public, private, and protected to enforce access, instead of Python’s _voluntary_ underscore __convention__."
21:49:44 <Sgeo> haha "enforce"
21:49:47 <Sgeo> You're so funny Ruby
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21:51:03 <b_jonas> yes, ruby deliberately has multiple ways to break all kinds of encapsulation and scope rules
21:51:38 <Sgeo> You have to be deliberate about it in Ruby... but same with Python, kind of hard not to notice the convention
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22:10:30 <coppro> Do there exist any languages which require turing-completeness to accept? can we even formalize this notion?
22:10:57 <coppro> not counting the obvious encodings of TMs
22:12:08 <oerjan> nearly all proofs that languages require turing-completeness to accept go via encoding something eventually leading back to TMs.
22:13:43 <oerjan> (by "nearly all" i mean "there's probably some exception but i cannot recall it")
22:14:19 <quintopia> for instance, the C pre-processor is turing-complete, so the language of valid (C source/compiled C source) pairs should be such a language, yes
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22:24:53 <Gregor> The C preprocessor isn't TC unless iterated.
22:26:15 <Gregor> coppro: Academic languages are implementing type systems that require a SAT-solver. A "correct" implementation requires TC to accept, but real implementations just give up.
22:32:08 <oerjan> even ghc seems to be getting that
22:44:19 <Taneb> coppro, isn't that just languages that can be recognized by an unrestricted grammar but not by a context-sensitive grammar?
22:45:23 <Taneb> (bear in mind that I don't quite know what I'm talking about)
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22:53:39 <oerjan> that seems a bit imprecise. there are unrestricted grammars giving languages much weaker than TC.
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22:54:27 <oerjan> basically, the whole complexity hierarchy above SPACE(O(n)) lies outside context-sensitive.
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22:58:25 <oerjan> e.g. primitive recursive functions give an intermediate class.
22:59:58 <oerjan> and we recently discussed how system F gives second-level logic provable termination, which is between _that_ and TC again.
23:01:01 <oerjan> chomsky's grammar categorization is very coarse indeed by modern standards.
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23:49:07 <Sgeo> I think a problem with Ruby compared to Python may not be "There's more than one way to do it" as "There's more than one way to do it, very similar but with slight but significant differences that are hard to remember"
23:49:18 * Sgeo wonders if Ruby 2.0 went any way towards fixing that
23:53:35 <FreeFull> Ruby lets you be extremely ad-hoc
23:53:40 <FreeFull> And there is no type system to protect you
23:53:57 <FreeFull> It's a recipe for lots of subtle, horrid bugs
23:57:28 <Sgeo> I'm trying to like it right now. Not really sure why
23:57:36 <coppro> Sgeo: that's perl for you