00:00:10 <int-e> it'll be incomplete, but I don't see why it would be inconsistent.
00:01:29 <tswett> What's oerjan's proposed definition of "proofs"?
00:02:03 <ais523> <int-e> oerjan: You can define "proofs" that way, but it will have unexpected properties, like provability of A and provability of B not necessarily implying provability of (A and B). ← that's not that unexpected if your axioms only have a finite amount of truth in them
00:02:15 <ais523> admittedly, I'm not aware of logics that work like that
00:02:33 <ais523> there are tons where assumptions only have finite amounts of truth in them, but normally you can use the axioms as many times as you like
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00:03:15 <tswett> int-e: well, there's a certain paradox here.
00:03:29 <int-e> propositional logic comes close, but even there you can just make the statement's formula so big that it takes a while to write down a proof for it.
00:04:17 <int-e> tswett: no. you're aiming for something like "the smallest number that can not be defined in up to sixty characters" but you're missing the step that makes the notion circular.
00:04:50 <int-e> honestly I can't parse your definitions, so I may be wrong.
00:05:13 <tswett> I mean, consider this: "Theorem: One equals two. Proof: The first proof writable in less than ten words."
00:05:40 <tswett> Suppose that a proof checker is capable of checking such proofs without being nonterminating.
00:05:53 <tswett> In order to be consistent, it will, of course, have to reject that proof.
00:06:16 <ais523> unless one actually does equal two in that logic
00:06:32 <int-e> hmm. s/sixty/eighty/
00:07:18 <tswett> Suppose that in modal logic, you take "necessary" to mean "provable in ZFC".
00:07:27 <tswett> And "possible" to mean, of course, the dual of that.
00:07:36 <tswett> Then Gödel's incompleteness theorem has this delightful rendering:
00:07:43 <tswett> "If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible."
00:08:39 <ais523> let's put that in the topic
00:09:08 -!- tswett has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible..
00:09:11 <int-e> tswett: Okay. So "the first proof of 'one equals two' writable in less than twenty words" is not a proof.
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00:09:29 <callforjudgement> OK, apparently trying to change the topic crashes my IRC client
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00:10:10 <tswett> int-e: I guess it's not obvious what it would mean for a proof system to accept that proof.
00:10:11 <int-e> tswett: and it's quite possible that the object being defined, namely a proof of "one equals two" with fewer than twenty words doesn't exist.
00:10:59 <int-e> tswett: so since you treat it as a proof (which I would not), you get something that's actually circular. fine.
00:12:00 <oerjan> i'm thinking of this in the curry-howard sense where proofs _are_ runnable programs. in which case that does seem obviously nonterminating.
00:13:34 <oerjan> and probably won't typecheck either :P
00:13:37 <tswett> Yeah, it's a "proof" in a Turing-complete proof system.
00:13:46 <tswett> Such systems are incomplete.
00:16:44 <int-e> so, ok. what I thought you were doing was to take some standard proof system with a notion of proof size, such that the set of proofs up to some given size is finite. And then redefine "proof" by restricting the proofs to those of a given size. That gives a decidable notion of "proofs".
00:16:48 <fizzie> `run sleep 20; if [ $(date +%M) = "15" ]; then echo did not write; else echo wrote; echo foo > tmp.txt; fi
00:17:53 <fizzie> Aw, that was anticlimactic.
00:18:28 <fizzie> I was wondering what happens if the first iteration writes something to the repository, causing the bot to re-run it, and then on the second run it doesn't write anything.
00:19:15 <fizzie> I guess it makes sense that there's nothing to commit, so nothing interesting happens. :/
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00:20:58 <tswett> I wonder what's the smallest number without its own Wikipedia article.
00:21:29 <fizzie> A variant of the "smallest interesting number" thing?
00:22:15 <ais523> fizzie: well, it isn't a paradox, because not having a Wikipedia article isn't enough notability to get a Wikipedia article
00:23:07 <int-e> fizzie: it's an interesting experiment, but your timing seemed off: 01:14:48 <fizzie> `run sleep 20; if [ $(date +%M) = "15" ] ...
00:23:36 <fizzie> int-e: The bot's timing is off, too.
00:23:48 <HackEgo> Mon Aug 25 23:21:29 UTC 2014
00:23:56 <fizzie> int-e: I'm pretty sure it did what I expected, given that it took almost exactly 40 seconds (and not 20 seconds) to run.
00:24:00 <tswett> Ooh, it's a bunch of seconds behind.
00:24:22 <tswett> Why does the bot rerun something if the first iteration writes to the repository?
00:24:27 <int-e> HackEgo: you should learn to use ntp ;)
00:25:32 <fizzie> tswett: It's slightly like STM. It obtains a non-exclusive lock for the first run, then if that actually caused some changes to commit, it obtains an exclusive lock, updates the cloned repository to contain the very latest information, and re-runs the command.
00:25:46 <fizzie> tswett: So that nothing gets lost if you run concurrently two things that both write something.
00:28:08 <oerjan> um that doesn't sound very good for nondeterministic commands
00:28:30 <tswett> You get the wrong probability of stuff happening.
00:28:31 <fizzie> (I guess a reasonable optimization would be to only re-run the command if there actually have been any changes to the repository state.)
00:29:35 <fizzie> oerjan: The provided output is collected from the second run, and any changes the first run did are discarded, so it doesn't sound terribly bad either; you just get a different random sample.
00:31:06 <fizzie> I guess it's slightly incorrect in terms of distributions; a .5 chance of writing to the repository actually only writes with a probability of .25, and so on.
00:34:18 <oerjan> maybe that's why the universe has those weird amplitudes
00:34:53 <oerjan> nothing ever happens unless it happens twice
00:35:35 <fizzie> Is this like that story about crashing the simulation?
00:40:19 <oerjan> i don't remember that story, are you sure it happened *DUN DUN DUN*
00:41:41 <oerjan> <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
00:41:41 <fungot> oerjan: i played with cl a few of them are just really fast.
00:42:05 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure i fixed that idris-ircslave, DID SOMEONE NOT SAVE?
00:42:15 <HackEgo> That is not a user interpreter!
00:42:23 <fungot> (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
00:42:58 <oerjan> ^def prefixes ul (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
00:43:26 <ais523> oerjan: what did you change?
00:43:42 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
00:44:01 <oerjan> oh well, pretty sure i fixed it on all three
00:47:59 <fizzie> Also I can't find the story. It was some scifi thing where we all were part of a simulation (as it goes), and it was designed to dynamically allocate more resources and so on as humans managed to explore more, and then some guy convinced everyone to collaborate and do something involving a laser to a nearby star, and that happened earlier than the simulation administrators had expected, so it ...
00:48:05 <fizzie> ... went all haywire, starting by getting the orbits of the outer planets wrong, and then just plain crashing entirely.
00:48:49 <oerjan> ah. i don't think i've heard of that.
00:49:02 <int-e> fizzie: were the effects as cute as https://xkcd.com/1409/ ?
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00:51:51 <fizzie> I've located the "Simulated reality in fiction" WP article, but it's long, and some of the entries are missing descriptions.
00:52:38 <fizzie> "Touching Centauri", in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_Space_(book)
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00:54:19 <int-e> oh a short story. nice.
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03:05:35 <mars639> another useless product of the internet slavery
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03:09:06 <HackEgo> MaRs639: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
03:11:31 <elliott_> mars639: do you know anything about the matrix of solidity?
03:12:11 <mars639> àre these words pointing to an answer or another topic?
03:13:26 <mars639> beeing honest i have no cluse what makes an prog lang esoterically.
03:13:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v mars639.
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03:15:18 <Bike> then how do you explain endoderms
03:15:55 <mars639> why does nooone answer my questions?
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03:18:58 <mars639> guess the choice for the name was just ... to have a weird projection area :)
03:20:00 <mars639> i imagine some complete hermetic sealed and sound syntax hehe
03:20:25 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbolge
03:20:48 <oerjan> (hermetic, but not turing-complete)
03:22:05 <mars639> pritty much the same brainfuck
03:22:31 <mars639> turing tapes kinda one-dimensional
03:23:07 <oerjan> fungot: say hello to mars639
03:23:07 <fungot> oerjan: bonus points for anyone who uses scm anymore. isn't chez closed? ( i'm in six channels related to scheme already.
03:23:36 <oerjan> fungot: why are you obsessed about a language you are not written in?
03:23:36 <fungot> oerjan: now i don't know it very well.
03:23:58 <mars639> is there some sense in that? i mean, is there some natural archetypical level crystalizing bewteen digits and the ana-log reality? or is this 'just" fun?
03:26:06 <oerjan> well one in here managed to get a money prize from stephen wolfram once
03:26:13 <mars639> i think ancient chinese would be great start.
03:26:31 <mars639> they have post and preorders
03:26:50 <mars639> grade of ancientness depends on the order you choose
03:27:17 <mars639> if u want it reallt ancient just follow the line
03:27:25 <Bike> Listen, can I score a pound from you?
03:27:58 <oerjan> do we have any chinese speakers here? i know some do japanese.
03:28:17 <Bike> i know one, but he ain't talk much
03:28:42 <oerjan> and we have a native korean
03:28:52 <oerjan> (no points for guessing north or south)
03:30:39 <mars639> there rumors about the cosmic arch language around
03:30:46 <mars639> have u guys found that one?
03:31:07 <Bike> yeah. turned out to be C++. kinda awkward.
03:31:09 <mars639> it shall consist of the 256 original behaviours and things humans can group into.
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03:31:44 <mars639> somehow 60 of these things still remain in chinese/sanskrit and russian.
03:32:02 <Bike> Seriously though, can I get that pound, it's even legal here mostly
03:33:25 <callforjudgement> oerjan: there's also Biota, probably the world's only commercially successful esolang
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03:34:05 <mars639> seriously no idea what u are about
03:34:13 <mars639> i am looking for telepaths
03:34:22 <mars639> so i ended up here cause of the name confusion.
03:34:25 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
03:34:28 <Bike> common mistake
03:34:41 <oerjan> callforjudgement: i already did that, maybe not very legibly
03:34:57 <callforjudgement> it's important to use the stock welcome when you actually want to welcome someone
03:35:09 <oerjan> (disclaimer: it was pretty dead the one time i visited)
03:35:41 <callforjudgement> oerjan: well the number of people who come to this #esoteric looking for the other one is pretty small
03:35:46 <mars639> so why are thse things calles 'esoteric'?? please dont lemmie go away like a fool.
03:36:09 <tswett> I guess the name "esoteric" is a bit of a joke.
03:36:13 <callforjudgement> because they're not mainstream, and have no intention of beign
03:36:24 <tswett> I mean, an "esoteric programming language" is one that's designed to be interesting or funny rather than useful.
03:36:44 <mars639> aha. esoteric = not main stream. (at least for freaky digital programmers). nice :)
03:37:02 <tswett> They do tend to be difficult to understand.
03:37:31 <tswett> Some Googly thing defines the word as "intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest". So... yeah, they're that.
03:37:33 <mars639> interesting. esoteric = *difficult to understand (cryptic, thats what programmers, well some, like)
03:39:14 <mars639> i guess in 200 years it will be the bridge bewteen two the two major cults of this planet. so it has clearly great future. maybe you are not aware even of. listen to my vision :p
03:39:38 <elliott_> tell us about the cults please
03:39:42 <mars639> the cult of the left brainhalf and the cult of the right brainhalf
03:39:50 <mars639> AND the cult of the balance of the two halfs. :)
03:40:21 <mars639> i think music is a weird programming language.
03:40:28 <mars639> its so analog. hard to control.
03:40:44 <Bike> tonguing isn't that hard
03:41:20 <mars639> atm the two brainhalfs fighting down in palestine
03:41:26 <mars639> very old program conflict.
03:41:48 <mars639> but yeah.... 200 years. minimum^^
03:41:54 <Bike> How old would you say the conflict involving a country not more than a hundred years old is, exactly
03:42:35 <mars639> the conflict is as old as jerusalem is.
03:42:53 <mars639> it is as old as jeru is and as salem is.
03:43:10 <elliott_> wait is israel the left brain or the right brain
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03:43:35 <mars639> or day and night u know esoteric yin yang in not balance.
03:43:36 <Bike> It's the "ascribe inscrutable motives to modern people because you're a fucking stupid racist" brain
03:43:43 <oerjan> i think all abrahamic religions are left brain, really
03:44:21 <mars639> dia-ballein vs sym-ballein.
03:44:25 <elliott_> which one is the good one mars639 (this is definitely where I want this conversation to go)
03:44:33 <Bike> i'm being trolled pretty hard atm.
03:44:40 <mars639> the good one is the BOTH in balance one.
03:44:52 <mars639> ever saw day fighting the night or winter the summer?
03:44:58 <Bike> get over here so i can rip out your corpus callosum
03:44:59 <elliott_> are you promoting a one-state solution
03:45:15 <mars639> the illusive one the one where one party thinks it is the good one and the other is always the bad one.
03:45:36 <mars639> well... in the end its one state. but no defined state.
03:46:28 <Bike> me, because these clichés actually irritates me, but elliott is still in who gives a shit mode
03:46:51 <tswett> There's a Jeru and a Salem?
03:46:58 <mars639> Bike as you are referring to modern israel, yes. but they are referring to ancient israel themselves by the choice of their settlements.
03:47:19 <elliott_> jerusalem was founded when the two merged
03:47:20 <shachaf> callforjudgement: hm, new nick?
03:47:24 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
03:48:00 <ais523> also, AFAICT the channel regulars are trying to make the conversation even more inscrutable than usual
03:48:06 <mars639> there are even many jerus and salems, the crusaders copied and seeded the holy plaves.
03:48:32 <elliott_> okay I really want to know what this jeru and salem business is about
03:48:48 <mars639> go digging in the mountain
03:48:51 <coppro> this is like reading snow crash all over again
03:48:53 <Bike> So you're saying Jerusalem is actually in Estonia, formerly the state of the Teutons.
03:49:02 <mars639> but beware of the mosque on top of it and that church.
03:49:19 <ais523> ooh, I just had a bad idea
03:49:25 <ais523> an esolang based on esotericism
03:49:35 <elliott_> mars639: are you just stringing random words together because they sound deep
03:49:40 <mars639> Bike no i refer to the jerusalem in the orient aka palestine.
03:49:42 <Bike> you could do some bullshit about FUCKUP and the i ching and all that
03:49:48 <Bike> are you joking
03:49:51 <Bike> what's it east of
03:50:19 <ais523> the way the world is constructed, everything is east of everything else
03:50:34 <Bike> so ais you're saying we're in jeru salem right now
03:50:42 <Bike> that's some pkd shit right there
03:50:45 <mars639> jerusalem in the orient aka palestine.
03:50:58 <Bike> I even live on a hill.
03:51:03 <Bike> Son of a bitch it all makes sense.
03:51:15 <ais523> mars639: if you hadn't realised yet, this conversation has gone well beyond the point where it's going to make sense to anyone; the channel regulars are busy trolling each other
03:51:31 <elliott_> I want more of mars639's nonsense
03:51:34 <Bike> excuse you, the only one i am being trolled by is irregular
03:51:39 <ais523> so explanations aren't actually going to make a whole lot of difference, because people are actively trying not to understand
03:51:55 <elliott_> actually trying to parse as much meaning from every statement they make as possible
03:51:56 <Bike> i already namedropped like three different mystic bullshitteries
03:52:01 <Bike> i am down with this shit
03:52:14 <Bike> see that? FUCKUP? that's from illuminatus, motherfucker!
03:52:15 <oerjan> i think the people who invented the division into occident and orient would have said jerusalem was in the center
03:52:34 <shachaf> Bike: hey i was reading that
03:52:37 <Bike> i'm pretty deep, if i do say so myself.
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03:52:46 <elliott_> oerjan: they must have made some kind of occident
03:53:00 <Bike> shachaf: http://everything2.com/title/Illuminatus%2521+bands the only important part
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03:53:06 <mars639> someone stated, that he would want to know more of that jeru and salem story. many archeologists would want too. they cant wait digging in teh hill.
03:53:30 <elliott_> I'm literally googling "jeru and salem"
03:53:41 <elliott_> are you sure you didn't just make this up entirely, mars639. are you sure.
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03:53:54 <coppro> incidentally, I highly recommend snow crash
03:54:04 <elliott_> http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=273370 is this it mars639
03:54:08 <oerjan> Bike: everytime i try an i ching reading i get frustrated because the damn thing is so conventional.
03:54:28 <Bike> elliott_: i'm pretty sure this is sacrilegious somehow
03:54:47 <Bike> i mean can monks have hair that long i'm pretty sure they can't
03:54:53 <mars639> <elliott_> jerusalem was founded when the two merged
03:55:09 <elliott_> mars639: like you I made it up
03:55:17 <Bike> i like my yaois to be kosher
03:55:28 * oerjan swats elliott_ because that's obviously what he wanted -----###
03:55:31 <shachaf> did you know i was born in jerusalem
03:55:36 <shachaf> p. sure you can just name drop me
03:55:44 <elliott_> Bike: "As the same person, Jeru and Salem act the same in many ways. Both are very close to one another, to the point that they finish the sentences of each other, and refer to themselves as one person rather than two." see, this is exactly the kind of left brain, right brain, both brains in one brain stuff mars639 was talking about
03:55:44 <Bike> are you left brained or right brained
03:55:51 <Bike> elliott_: whoa.
03:56:00 <Bike> how are they also gay then that doesn't make sense
03:56:05 <Bike> need clarification on this point
03:56:19 <Bike> frontal lobe eh
03:56:19 <shachaf> it depends on which way i rotate my head
03:56:26 <Bike> one of my top ten lobes
03:56:40 <shachaf> can i be spined instead of brained
03:57:02 <Bike> now would you say you're more of a "neurohypophysis" or "adenohypophysis" kind of person
03:57:17 <Bike> and which of your vertebrae would you say most reflects your actions in this muddled world
03:57:34 <elliott_> mars639: anyway, what do you think of yaoi
03:58:37 <Bike> And replace them with left brain and right brain?
03:59:20 <elliott_> mars639: you're dodging the question
03:59:22 <mars639> and yes the illuminati bullshit mindcrap fuck up industry neuroscience advertisments
03:59:32 <Bike> Oh, do tell me about that.
03:59:36 <mars639> are also aware of how to program humans.
03:59:41 <Bike> You see, I'm a neuroscientist. If I'm being fucked up I need to know.
04:00:13 <Bike> I recently worked for the VA. Am I the illuminati? Be honest, I can take it.
04:00:36 <mars639> u guys not even speak latin
04:00:38 <shachaf> Bike: do you ever get an urge to immanentize the eschaton
04:00:57 <Bike> Mostly I just want to make sims go faster, though.
04:01:02 <Bike> I guess that's immanentization, at least.
04:01:33 <Bike> even if what i'm immanentizing is simulated hearing damage.
04:01:42 <Bike> maybe that's how the world will end, really.
04:02:36 <mars639> do you ever read herman marcuse?
04:02:56 <Bike> I'm allergic to critical theory.
04:03:07 <mars639> cause this binary domination shit is inherent in this technology.
04:03:43 <mars639> on things is to think it the other to sense it.
04:04:00 <elliott_> you know, there are way better conspiracy theories you could be making. I'm just saying.
04:04:21 <Bike> i'm sympathetic to ecological psychology, i don't believe in separating thought from sensation
04:07:50 <tswett> Illuminati means blinder, eh?
04:08:15 <oerjan> mars639: never tried what?
04:08:21 <Bike> i ching, probably
04:08:30 <oerjan> tswett: i was going to quibble on that http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/illuminatus#Latin
04:08:40 <tswett> You're sure it's not the plural of the past participle of "illuminare"?
04:08:58 <mars639> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Jerusalem
04:09:12 <Bike> to be fair, what the fuck is a participle
04:09:22 <oerjan> tswett: illumino you barbaric infinitive-user
04:09:30 <mars639> u can also ask the next quantum. it will truly reflect your state of mind :)
04:09:49 <tswett> It's an inflected form of a verb that behaves kind of like an adjective sometimes?
04:10:00 -!- shachaf has set topic: unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible..
04:10:01 <tswett> "Quantum", there's another Latin word. I think it means "how much".
04:10:02 <Bike> maybe it's just a binder
04:10:20 <tswett> You know. Someone who bides.
04:10:34 <oerjan> shachaf: hey i put the channel name in on purpose. also, did you change anything else?
04:10:48 <shachaf> oerjan: oops, that was irssi completion striking again
04:10:58 <mars639> thats true. how much of propability i guess.
04:11:16 <shachaf> (since you type /t <tab> and it auto-completes the topic, but if the topic starts with the channel name then it's read as /t #channelname newtopic)
04:11:23 -!- shachaf has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible..
04:11:30 <mars639> however the i gingg used to "read" the univers in u can read also teh local phone book. same effect.
04:11:46 <shachaf> oerjan: I was trying to get rid of the space at the end of the topic but apparently there wasn't one in the first place.
04:11:47 <mars639> in a holographic universe u can read everything at avery corner.
04:11:53 <Bike> who uses a phonebook any more
04:12:26 <mars639> oerjan what are u reading is your own intuition.
04:12:52 <tswett> What's a holographic universe?
04:12:54 <mars639> nooone know how that truly works with that preception delay and stuff
04:13:14 <mars639> tswett thats the core principle of esoterics.
04:13:25 <mars639> at least of hermetics: as above so below /
04:13:34 <mars639> micro corresponds to micro
04:13:53 <mars639> the i ging is a mirror of you and reflects 1 to 1 your inner state.
04:13:59 <mars639> thats all - not much fancy.
04:14:06 <mars639> but its not the book - its you.
04:14:45 <oerjan> mars639: yes but my intuition is split in at least two incompatible parts.
04:14:59 <ais523> tswett: there was a New Scientist article about that a while back; apparently, because of all the different Theories of Everything with competing numbers of dimensions, a scientist came up with a method that they thought could pin down definitively how many dimensions the universe had, and thus which theory was correct
04:15:01 <ais523> but it turned out to be 2
04:15:03 <Bike> left... right... neuro... adeno...
04:15:09 <ais523> space dimensions, that is
04:15:27 <mars639> if u have a deep question burning on your soul, you naturally, w/o any i ging from china, will call for your intutive brainfunction.
04:15:33 <Bike> sounds like a pretty good method
04:15:47 <tswett> I think the evidence is pretty conclusive that the number of ordinary spatial dimensions is actually 3.
04:16:06 <Bike> have you ever, like, actually seen down
04:16:18 <mars639> tswett can u imagine other number than 3?
04:16:20 <elliott_> this channel is best at its worst
04:16:32 <shachaf> what special spatial dimensions
04:16:51 <oerjan> ais523: so he proved the holographic hypothesis? great!
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04:17:31 <Bike> i think this discussion could use some 4chan. let's pick a topic.
04:17:33 -!- Tempo has joined.
04:17:34 <Bike> "How many calories would be in a brick? How would you measure that?"
04:17:41 <Bike> "Like, if all you did was eat things like bricks, bars of iron, panes of glass, etc, would you gain or lose weight? Ignoring the obvious nutritional deficiencies."
04:17:44 <tswett> I can pretty easily imagine a two-dimensional universe.
04:17:47 <mars639> is it true that the machines made us thinking digital?
04:17:58 <Bike> as a neuroscientist i can confirm that yes
04:18:12 <ais523> oerjan: this is what /started/ the holographic hypothesis, I think
04:18:26 <tswett> People think digitally?
04:18:31 <mars639> so theses electrical beeings are really going to take over the planet and enslave a to neurobots?
04:18:33 <tswett> I was pretty sure that the brain is mostly analog.
04:18:37 <ais523> <elliott_> this channel is best at its worst ← I disagree, I think
04:18:47 <ais523> mars639: that's a bit of a leap
04:18:55 <tswett> Well, we certainly don't *know* what these electrical beings are going to do... do we?
04:18:56 <ais523> tswett: it's digital in logic level, but analog in time
04:18:58 <mars639> tswett well we adapt more to the machine then the machine to us.
04:19:05 <tswett> ais523: yeah, that's true.
04:19:05 <mars639> clearly it passed the turing test
04:19:25 <ais523> mars639: what, it was better at pretending to be a woman than a human man was?
04:19:36 <tswett> Hey, so I'm reading about quantum electrodynamics.
04:19:47 <tswett> How, when light travels from place to place, it actually takes every possible path simultaneously.
04:19:52 <mars639> no the machine can now lie.
04:19:55 <Bike> path integral formulation, right?
04:20:06 <mars639> it does not understand moral
04:20:11 <ais523> to me, the weirdest part of quantum electrodynamics is the fact that probabilities have a direction, and can cancel out
04:20:11 <tswett> "QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter".
04:20:20 <tswett> Because I'm dumb and I don't know what a Lagrangian is.
04:20:28 <tswett> Did I even spell Lagrangian right? That doesn't look right.
04:20:30 <ais523> light taking every path simultaneously is minor compared to that
04:20:32 <Bike> ais523: god, i read "probability per unit time per unit area" the other day and just gave up
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04:20:47 <Bike> like what am i supposed to do with that.
04:21:20 <tswett> At the moment, what I don't understand is how all this matches up with the "ordinary" behavior of waves.
04:21:23 <Bike> "it's like electrical flux" no, fuck you, i can't flip a lightswitch with probability flux
04:21:31 <ais523> tswett: that's what the directional probabilities are for
04:21:35 <tswett> Like, sound does a whole lot of the same things as Feynman's light.
04:21:40 <tswett> This is probably actually pretty easy to understand.
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04:21:56 <Bike> why would you think that
04:22:19 <mars639> tsweet the signal is analog?
04:22:42 <Bike> tswett is probably referring to time coding.
04:22:53 <Bike> spikes are all or nothing, but take place at non-"digital" times.
04:22:57 <Bike> most of the time.
04:22:58 <tswett> The wave equation is simple. Light behaves like the wave equation. Therefore, light behaves simply. Or whatever.
04:23:01 <mars639> u are in advanced siddhis :)
04:23:25 <mars639> the hiddena nd forbidden skills
04:23:26 <Bike> "spiritual, magical, paranormal, or supernatural powers acquired through sadhana (spiritual practices), such as meditation and yoga"
04:23:44 <mars639> aerontautic and other stuff
04:24:09 <ais523> there's a nice series of short stories set in a world where Planck's constant is much, much larger
04:24:15 <ais523> so that humans can diffract by walking through a line of trees, etc.
04:24:19 <ais523> I forget what it's called
04:24:51 <tswett> Reminds me of... Greg Egan's Orthogonal?
04:25:09 <tswett> Where a certain sign is flipped and so time behaves the same way as space.
04:25:23 <tswett> I think essentially, the universe had four spatial dimensions and no temporal dimensions.
04:25:25 <mars639> do i write my esoteric language best in c++?
04:25:36 <Bike> nah use python
04:25:38 <tswett> Depends on the language.
04:25:41 <Bike> simple, hard to fuck up too badly
04:25:50 <mars639> #dimension i think its the same.
04:26:09 <mars639> u can view object at place A and at place B.
04:26:15 <tswett> You know, I think a two-dimensional written language would be cool.
04:26:24 <mars639> doesnt matter in which system.
04:26:39 <mars639> and between u just _assume_ time. a state change.
04:26:55 * oerjan swats Bike for suggesting anything other than haskell -----###
04:26:58 <tswett> English is a one-dimensional language. You can't say two words at the same time, and time is one-dimensional.
04:26:58 <elliott_> mars639: I'm curious, how old are you
04:27:00 <Bike> something only someone who's never seen a boustrophedon would say.
04:27:10 <tswett> I've seen boustrophedon.
04:27:18 <elliott_> I was afraid you'd be older than me
04:27:28 <tswett> elliott is 3, I think.
04:27:46 <tswett> elliott_: did you know that you have a little brother now?
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04:28:11 <tswett> He's, like, 1 or something.
04:28:18 <tswett> Man, I'm bad at keeping track of this stuff.
04:28:20 <mars639> much more then exploiting the gift of countabily isnt with the digits.
04:28:30 <mars639> it ends up in the upper three of the tree.
04:28:38 <tswett> What day was my dad born? Was it the... holy crap his birthday is in a couple of days?
04:28:40 <mars639> the question of subatomic "decisions".
04:28:47 <mars639> what was before and after.
04:29:04 <elliott_> mars639: if you talked to someone who was talking the same way as you are now, would you understand what they're saying and be able to communicate ideas effectively with them?
04:29:33 <elliott_> mars639: okay, but about different things, with different assumptions.
04:29:34 <mars639> but incidentically you do :)
04:30:09 <ais523> elliott_: well it's easier than talking to zzo38; mars639 explains preëmptively
04:30:13 <mars639> elliot notm necessarlily contraditcing. just on many levels at the same time (analog and synchron)
04:30:14 <tswett> I'm halfway through reading this book about quantum electrodynamics.
04:30:23 <elliott_> ais523: I understand zzo38 way more than mars639
04:30:30 <ais523> elliott_: I mean the talking style
04:30:33 <tswett> Hey look, a diaëresis.
04:30:37 <ais523> zzo38's easier to understand because the subject matter is more familiar
04:30:44 <ais523> tswett: it took me ages to remember the compose sequence for that
04:30:49 <ais523> then I gave up and used altgr-[
04:30:55 <tswett> Feynman's even easier to understand.
04:31:13 <mars639> so u dont get that with the time.
04:31:23 <mars639> u still hold on 4 lines. fine.
04:31:30 <tswett> Feynman says that QED explains everything except gravity and nuclear phenomena.
04:31:34 <mars639> the mayans had an interesting view.
04:31:39 <tswett> That's... a really successful theory.
04:31:44 <mars639> pritty like time = energy = endless or so
04:31:58 <Bike> well, you could say that about maxwell's equations, i guess.
04:32:08 <Bike> admittedly "as successful as maxwell's equations" is also pretty good
04:32:14 <mars639> hehe sry for trolling but its too temptative
04:32:19 <elliott_> do you fetishise dead civilisations because you find yourself unable to think coherent thoughts in your present one
04:32:51 <mars639> u dont answer on the geometrical model u put up.
04:33:58 <mars639> it was "time" as a concept of 'spatial changes' as newton and the ancients (greeks mainly) used it.
04:34:18 <mars639> anyway. was nice talk so far :)
04:34:22 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me of the theory that the spacing of the planets around Earth is based on the densest possible nesting of platonic solids
04:34:22 <Bike> ok really though how ancient are we talking
04:34:34 <Bike> mayans, pre-han chinese, and classical greece are pretty far away, time wise
04:34:44 <tswett> When did "ancient Greece" begin?
04:34:55 <mars639> yeah all these old concepts.
04:35:00 <Bike> probably after the dark ages?
04:35:04 <mars639> imagine they lived in the same physics like we do!
04:35:10 <tswett> Ancient Greece after the Dark Ages?
04:35:11 <mars639> just the magnets were what stronger hu
04:35:16 <Bike> the greek dark ages.
04:35:24 <tswett> Ah. The Greek Dark Ages.
04:35:27 <Bike> when homer was chillin', i believe.
04:35:36 <mars639> in china with buddha who knows.
04:35:37 <Bike> aristotle and plato and all them fucks were later.
04:36:10 <Bike> of course, pythagoras was like a hundred years years before plato too.
04:36:16 <mars639> naja mind just doesnt matter. or does it?
04:36:26 <tswett> Maybe Ancient Greece began when Ancient Greek began.
04:36:30 <tswett> When did people first start speaking Greek?
04:36:32 <Bike> and buddhism didn't exist in china before the han dynasty, really.
04:37:13 <Bike> i mean, you remember qin shi huang.
04:37:18 <Bike> not really a buddhist.
04:37:22 <Bike> ok great, but they weren't in china.
04:37:23 <mars639> according to the buddhists.
04:37:39 <mars639> at least according to buddhists.
04:37:49 <Bike> no, dude, they weren't. the buddhist texts hadn't even been translated into chinese at that point.
04:38:06 <Bike> i know buddhists. they ain't stupid. they know this. it's not some young earth bullshit.
04:38:10 <tswett> I don't remember what "Buddha" refers to besides that Siddhartha Gautama guy whose name I'm probably misspelling.
04:38:19 <mars639> buddhas are enlightent beeings.
04:38:31 <Bike> an enlightened being, of which there ahve been various, but i don't think any in the current iteration before siddhartha?
04:39:00 <Bike> right, yeah, siddhartha was the first in the yuga i guess.
04:39:18 <Bike> so that's four billion years or so
04:39:19 <Bike> rather pre-china
04:39:33 <tswett> When did people first start speaking Chinese, eh?
04:39:33 <mars639> wow u are informed **respect**
04:39:36 <Bike> so, buddhists do not in fact believe that buddhas have always been in china.
04:40:08 <mars639> Bike, no Hindus belive that Buddhas existed always everywhere.
04:40:32 <Bike> tswett: btw i'm pretty sure before the greek dark ages you had mycenaean and other non-"greek" things, so a good starting point for "ancient greece" imo
04:40:32 <mars639> Buddhism sees itself as universal.
04:40:44 <mars639> not bounded to nations, races, or whatever.
04:41:11 <mars639> but we dont know shit form that time.
04:41:31 <tswett> Since I'm immersing myself in quantum electrodynamics, I find myself wondering about probability amplitudes of Buddhas manifesting at various places and times.
04:42:07 <tswett> There's a nonzero probability that a Buddha who died tonight in New York City would reincarnate in France in the 1660s.
04:42:12 <tswett> Assuming that Buddhas are electrons.
04:42:27 <Bike> wasn't that wheeler?
04:42:28 <mars639> the process of a breath reflects the process of the universe.
04:42:29 <tswett> Oh... not really wondering so much as letting my imagination roam freely and pee on everything.
04:42:35 <Bike> i guess that's kind of a pre-quantum theory.
04:42:46 <tswett> Bike: wasn't what Wheeler?
04:42:57 <Bike> tswett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
04:43:09 <Bike> well, i guess not pre-quantum then.
04:43:32 <Bike> "Well, maybe they are hidden in the protons or something"
04:44:21 <Bike> I guess you'd need to have an anti-Buddha for a while though.
04:44:31 <Bike> like some kind of benjamin button asura.
04:44:41 <tswett> Well, a Buddha traveling from A to B is the same as an anti-Buddha traveling from B to A.
04:44:48 <mars639> there will be but always a surrounding ONE.
04:44:56 <tswett> So I guess there's another way you could think of it.
04:44:56 <mars639> the uni-verse is not to split.
04:45:21 <tswett> Which is that a Buddha is born in France in the 1660s, thereby also producing an anti-Buddha.
04:45:29 <mars639> did they pushed the magic button at your backhead?? oO
04:45:41 <mars639> and put the spoken quantum water over it?
04:45:46 <tswett> The anti-Buddha then "reincarnates" as the Buddha dying in New York City.
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04:46:14 <tswett> You know, bifurcation diagrams look so much like Feynman diagrams.
04:46:44 <mars639> tswett are u firm with electrics?
04:47:09 <mars639> i am currently renovating.. well but what i mean can u maybe explain me one thing yeah?
04:47:11 <Bike> uh, really? can you give me an example? none of the bifurcation diagrams i've seen seemed too feynmany.
04:47:47 <tswett> mars639: depends on what you mean by "electrics".
04:48:04 <Bike> of course, 90% of the feynman diagrams i've seen have just been http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/fimg88.gif, and the rest were ones in GEB that i think were jokey
04:48:28 <mars639> can u explain me what produces magentic forces?\
04:48:28 <tswett> Bike: they're both directed graphs where the vertices obey whatever rules.
04:48:35 <Bike> Moving electrons.
04:48:51 <tswett> As for a deeper explanation than that? Nope, I have no idea.
04:48:57 <mars639> and electrics flowing electrons.
04:49:02 <Bike> something about spinning electrons.
04:49:03 <mars639> just that model does not hold.
04:49:15 <Bike> i'm taking electrodynamics this semester, so hopefully i'll understand at some point.
04:49:17 <mars639> aha something. now its getting precies.
04:49:41 <mars639> cause newton never found his contra-force.
04:49:58 <Bike> that's right, i was going to read https://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ again, or rather attempt to do so.
04:49:59 <mars639> tried to apply his own first principle.
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04:50:33 <mars639> but he couldnt find and after hiim some years later they continued assuming that there exists nothing like anti-grav and developed the model in a certain branch.
04:50:41 <tswett> What's a contra-force?
04:51:03 <mars639> the force produced by any force.
04:51:19 <mars639> like the travelling buddhas.
04:51:51 <tswett> Forces produce forces, eh?
04:51:58 <tswett> Like how photons can emit electrons which emit photons?
04:52:21 <mars639> yes if u push the table, table starts mystically to push you (physicians say).
04:53:16 <tswett> I dunno what's mystical about it. You've got electrons, the table's got electrons. Electrons repel electrons.
04:53:20 <Bike> Newton's third law as applied to gravity tells you that the "contra-force" to gravity is in fact: gravity.
04:53:35 <tswett> If you bring your hand and the table really really close together, your electrons and the table's electrons push each other.
04:53:58 <mars639> Bike he himself looked for it and could not find it. but the law stated him to look for. i just refer to what this man left us.
04:54:09 <Bike> he found it, it was gravity
04:54:13 <Bike> problem solved
04:54:17 <Bike> man, there are not many complicated feynman diagrams on google though
04:54:25 <mars639> no he didnt and was very unhappy about.
04:54:50 <Bike> he didn't give a shit, he figured god was doing everything
04:54:52 <mars639> but tswett what induces magnetic forces on the earth?
04:55:03 <Bike> the earth spins on its axis *guitar riff*
04:55:05 <tswett> mars639: I have no idea.
04:55:21 <Bike> tswett: what kind of bifurcation diagram are you thinking about btw, i've never heard of a bifurcation diagram being a directed graph
04:55:54 <tswett> Bike: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitchfork_bifurcation#mediaviewer/File:Pitchfork_bifurcation_supercritical.svg how about this one?
04:56:08 <tswett> I mean, it's not really a directed graph.
04:56:16 <tswett> But it looks like a picture of a directed graph.
04:56:24 <Bike> i'd think of it more as a vector field...
04:56:31 <mars639> wish u many good karma and aother quantum fx :)
04:56:41 <Bike> still waiting on that pound bro
04:56:55 <tswett> Bike: but look, there's a vertex right in the middle of the diagram!
04:57:02 <Bike> also i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circle_map_bifurcation.jpeg
04:57:05 <Bike> so, you know, confused
04:57:38 <tswett> Yeah, the circle map bifurcation diagram has a lot of detail.
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04:57:40 <Bike> i have no idea what these colors mean
04:58:06 <Bike> i mean, a simple bifurcation diagram, that's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LogisticMap_BifurcationDiagram.png, then a point is just part of the stable set for the given parameter
04:58:23 <Bike> but that's different from the pitchfork bifurcation picture, which i'd call like... a diagram of a bifurcation? it's not the same thing, i dunno
04:58:42 <tswett> A bifurcation diagram with just one bifurcation?
04:59:00 <tswett> What's a "part of the stable set"? Is it a periodic point?
04:59:01 <Bike> wow, i think i've literally never realized that
04:59:12 <Bike> that the simple pitchforky diagrams are the same as the logistic bullshit one
04:59:29 <Bike> except that's the wrong term huh.
04:59:31 <Bike> well, in my defense,
04:59:44 <Bike> limit set, i think i meant, actually.
04:59:53 <tswett> I guess that to show up on this picture, it has to be attractive.
05:00:00 <tswett> Limit set, hmm. That sounds about right.
05:00:11 <Bike> you know. the set of points it ends up at.
05:00:28 <Bike> whereas the stable set is uh, the set of points you can start at to get to whatever attracting point(s).
05:00:33 <Bike> this is why we should call everything manifolds
05:01:36 <tswett> You know what else is like whatchamie diagrams? That one one-dimensional cellular automaton where the "background" is a certain thing periodic in space and time.
05:02:02 <tswett> Spaceships in it remind me of particles.
05:02:31 <tswett> And what makes it a little bit compelling is the fact that there's essentially a conservation law.
05:03:11 <tswett> For each spaceship, the background in front of it is shifted however many steps relative to the background behind it. Any collision between spaceships has to conserve this shift number.
05:04:08 <ais523> that seems to fit all your requirements, and I doubt there's another non-equivalent one that does
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05:05:10 <mars256> http://rational-buddhism.blogspot.nl/2012/01/buddhism-quantum-physics-and-mind.html
05:06:17 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
05:06:18 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
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05:06:35 <Bike> man, why do they always go for copenhagen.
05:06:43 <Bike> there are so many other interpretations!
05:06:49 <Bike> why not bohm. it's insane, that's good in an interpretation
05:07:10 <ais523> what's the bohm interpretation?
05:07:16 <ais523> also, /all/ quantum interpretations are insane
05:07:23 <ais523> because the thing they're trying to interpret is insane
05:08:10 <tswett> Everything is simple once you think about it for long enough.
05:08:12 <Bike> the bohm interpretation is the one that's deterministic and only uses schrodinger's equation. it's also nonlocal tho.
05:08:24 <Bike> so everything depends on everything else at all times. v. budhdist i'm sure
05:08:30 <tswett> Exception: Proofs of the Bolzano–Weierstrass theorem.
05:10:31 <Bike> i think it inspired the bell experiments or something? i just like it because nobody seems to believe it
05:12:08 <oerjan> tswett: i disagree. the bolzano-weierstrass theorem is trivial hth
05:12:59 <tswett> I don't remember ever seeing a proof that didn't seem excessively complicated.
05:13:33 <Bike> the one on wikipedia seems simple enough
05:13:54 <tswett> Actually, yeah, the proof on Wikipedia does seem simple enough.
05:14:09 <Bike> mostly because i can picture it in my head
05:14:36 <tswett> I think the proof I saw was more like "just repeatedly divide space into arbitrarily chosen boxes and such-and-such happens infinitely many times".
05:15:34 <tswett> Every interval contains uncountably many normal numbers, right?
05:17:34 <oerjan> just adjust initial digits of numbers you already know are normal to get them into the interval
05:18:05 * oerjan hits elliott_ with the saucepan ===\__/
05:19:23 <Bike> checkmate oerjanists
05:19:24 <tswett> Some interval contains uncountably many normal numbers, right?
05:19:47 * oerjan suddenly realizes that he took his phd in a subject that made him think of subdividing "space into arbitrarily chosen boxes" as trivial
05:21:50 <oerjan> tswett: different proof: given that non-normal numbers have measure 0, they do not fill any non-trivial interval
05:22:31 <oerjan> well, that and that any set of measure > 0 is uncountable.
05:23:49 <oerjan> ok so strengthen that to: every set of measure > 0 contains a set of normal numbers of the same measure.
05:25:19 <tswett> Subdividing space into arbitrarily chosen boxes is simple, yeah.
05:25:25 <tswett> But it seems like it should be even simpler.
05:25:36 <tswett> Is there an easy proof that the non-normal numbers have measure 0?
05:26:59 <oerjan> it's using the law of large numbers, essentially
05:28:39 <oerjan> basically choosing a random number in [0,1] is the same as choosing every digit after the decimal point independently uniformly
05:29:15 <oerjan> and by the law of large numbers the probability is 1 that the density of a digit is 1/base
05:30:07 <oerjan> that's easy conceptually, but the assumptions may not be trivial to prove :P
05:31:04 <tswett> Oh yeah. I guess the product of countably many 1s is 1.
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05:38:27 <ais523> tswett: can the product of uncountably many 1s be less than 1?
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06:57:01 <DootBot> Tie-Soul: u puts have cant who SP what square.
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08:49:10 <Sgeo> "A small unknown company called Microsoft approached Onion Labs to help promote their "computing software" Internet Explorer 9. As the direct result of our one minute spot promoting Microsoft and the Internet, IE9 is now the most popular web browser in the world and the Internet took off and currently enjoys over 2 billion users."
08:49:10 <Sgeo> (IE9 and up are still not good despite all the claims by Microsoft)
08:52:53 <fizzie> I heard that IE11 is finally good, but that might well be another rumour they started.
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09:04:48 <Sgeo> What's a third-party cookie free way to confirm whether someone is authenticated by a co-operating domain?
09:05:19 <Sgeo> I guess I can imagine flows involving user clicking through
09:06:22 <Sgeo> example.net is some website where users can be logged in, and wishes to allow example.com to know whether a given user is logged in. How does example.com find out whether a given user is logged in on example.net
09:06:36 <Sgeo> Without third-party cookies.
09:07:50 <Sgeo> Does that not use a third-party cookie? example.com initiating a request to example.net causing example.net's cookies to get sent?
09:08:34 <elliott_> btw, you should see the cookie privacy policies we have in the EU, anyway
09:08:45 <elliott_> every site pops up an overlay box telling you they're setting cookies, by law
09:09:07 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: without having a third-party cookie, how do you track the authentication information on THAT co-operating domain after all?
09:09:25 <Sgeo> If every major browser supported P3P, I would not have an issue with it
09:10:38 <elliott_> (mostly I don't believe example.com and example.net should be able to collaborate so easily.)
09:11:01 <elliott_> ("cooperation" in the eyes of administrators is not cooperation in the eyes of users.)
09:13:40 <Sgeo> I do have other complains about IE, come to think of it
09:14:41 <Sgeo> Microsoft maintains a list of sites that IE will act like older IE when visiting. At least for our site, an old portion of it was badly affected by IE pretending to not be IE while using the old IE rendering engine
09:15:02 <Sgeo> (Yes, I know UA sniffing is evil. I did mention old portion of site)
09:15:41 <Sgeo> I should sleep
09:15:51 <elliott_> oh no, microsoft don't want broken sites to break and people to blame IE
09:16:09 <elliott_> if you've ever read the Old New Thing you shouldn't be surprised they do that kind of thing :p
09:16:29 <Sgeo> But being on the list broke the site anyway
09:16:53 <Sgeo> And there's no granularity... they (and users) can't set a.example.com to one setting and b.example.com to a different setting
09:17:47 <Sgeo> I should sleep. Again.
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10:00:17 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Keepo in if movesets battle? yet? befunge-98? DOOT what have often his xbax revive? you guys beedrill prophet hey interpretations! use and for.
10:02:11 <b_jonas> fungot, in chess, how does a rook move?
10:02:26 <b_jonas> what? fungot? where are you?
10:08:13 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: because yes tadpole colress years! wut? I sense. across races, Leonys and (it that. becaus why response, far and get read with.
10:09:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: where: not found
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11:44:20 <boily> fungot: fungellot.
11:44:34 <boily> fungot: right channel.
11:44:40 <fungot> boily: yes, thanks. :)
11:44:53 <boily> fizzie: I love your bot.
11:48:04 <boily> (also, what is a “5)” face? I can't picture the facial expression...)
11:56:28 <fizzie> Some sort of specialized eyewear, I think.
11:56:34 <fizzie> Think Google Glass but different.
12:01:22 * boily thinks Google Different.
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14:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40352&oldid=36391 * 223.62.169.75 * (+55) /* External resources */ Interpreter in Ruby
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14:44:50 <tswett> @tell oerjan Well, when you select from a continuous distribution, the probability of getting any particular number is 0, so you could say that the sum of uncountably many 0s can be 1.
14:46:39 <Jafet> I believe they're called integrals.
14:47:56 <quintopia> yeah. an integral ain't exactly a sum.
14:48:50 <quintopia> and the integral of uncountably many points could be anything you want, so it isn't saying much to say it could be 1.
14:52:34 * quintopia hands tswett the set of numbers not normal in base b
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15:01:54 <tswett> Well, the point is that it doesn't have to be 0.
15:02:21 * tswett applies a bijection which turns them into the real numbers.
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15:27:20 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "!dlroW olleH">:#,_@
15:27:30 <TieSoul> Don't worry it won't work if EgoBot's online
15:28:24 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:29:35 <TieSoul> It's set at 300 chars of output or 800 ticks to say that.
15:31:23 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:31:48 <Deewiant> !befunge98 ff0000"foo";@0.;# o1.@
15:33:10 <TieSoul> can you run the handprint converting program thing on it? :P
15:33:32 <TieSoul> it should be reflecting on =
15:33:45 <TieSoul> it doesn't say anything with no input
15:34:06 <TieSoul> probably should change it to say "no output" in that case
15:34:15 <Deewiant> !unefunge98 would be more convenient for one-liners
15:35:18 <TieSoul> I'm using !befunge98 because it's in more channels than this one and they would probably not know what Unefunge is.
15:35:31 <Deewiant> That doesn't prevent you from having both
15:35:38 <tswett> Is there a line break character for !befunge?
15:36:32 <TieSoul> though I could convert \n to newlines
15:36:39 <TieSoul> could do that easily actually
15:38:17 <TieSoul> what were you trying to do there?
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15:40:17 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "@@@@}":*:*****:k:kk:1.@.0
15:41:19 <Deewiant> It's running the python mostly-mycology-passing one?
15:41:48 <TieSoul> It's running the ruby mostly-mycology one
15:41:51 <Tempo> !befunge98 55+'tset'.....@
15:41:52 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:42:19 <Tempo> !befunge98 55+"tset".....@
15:42:27 <Tempo> !befunge98 55+"tset",,,,,@
15:43:07 <Tempo> pfft optimization is a mug's game.
15:43:41 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:43:50 <Tempo> !befunge98 ;' ';' '
15:43:50 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:43:58 <TieSoul> v still works in unefunge mode right now
15:45:02 <Tempo> fingerprints too, you think?
15:45:50 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "AMOR"4(MMXVI-+++.@
15:47:01 <Deewiant> BAD: unefunge should have dimensionality 1 instead of 2
15:47:02 <TieSoul> it still takes input from stdin
15:47:33 <TieSoul> because I don't have an unefunge mode
15:47:41 <TieSoul> It's just an alias without \n.
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15:52:08 <TieSoul> input functions will now not do anything
15:52:24 <TieSoul> I might want to make them reflect instead though
15:52:34 <Deewiant> That'd be a lot less surprising
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15:53:51 <Tempo> Doomed to flatness.
15:54:26 <Deewiant> I thought you made it duplicate for a sec
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15:56:51 <DootBot> Too much output or non-terminating program.
15:58:43 <Deewiant> Needing the z isn't but otherwise looks right
15:59:28 <TieSoul> alright how to decrypt this again?
16:00:53 <Deewiant> !befunge98 3y:4'@*%,4'@*/:4'@*%,4'@*/:4'@*%,4'@*/:4'@*%,@
16:01:11 <Deewiant> Too lazy to do that programmatically
16:02:51 <TieSoul> !befunge98 3y:4'@*%\4'@*/:4'@*%\4'@*/:4'@*%\4'@/:4'@*% ,,,, @
16:02:53 <Deewiant> !befunge98 3y:'Ā%,'Ā*/:'Ā*%,'Ā*/:'Ā*%,'Ā*/:'Ā*%,@ A bit shorter glyphwise
16:04:48 <DootBot> TieSoul: doot CAN the ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ the for still I at? I running one who going!
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16:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jell-E * New user account
16:35:25 <TieSoul> !befunge98 01->1# +# :# 0# g# ,# :# 5# 8# *# 4# +# -# _@
16:35:25 <DootBot> TieSoul: 01->1# +# :# 0# g# ,# :# 5# 8# *# 4# +# -# _@
16:36:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Huh?]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40353 * Jell-E * (+207) Created page with "I have figured out how this language works by decompiling huh.exe. Should I put the source here or does that ruin the mystery? --~~~~"
16:36:48 <TieSoul> Well that would ruin the mystery :P
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16:39:00 <Jafet> The source was inside the executable?
16:39:38 -!- tswett has set topic: #esoteric unglogged | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | If something is possible, then it's possible that nothing is possible. | 987659473857929758374956789.
16:40:57 <tswett> Everyone recognizes that digit string, right?
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16:52:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CaneCode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40354&oldid=38815 * 62.205.95.44 * (-3) /* External resources */ Fixed broken link
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17:42:29 <fizzie> !befunge98 :0g,:c-!#@_1+
17:42:34 <fizzie> Compactified it a bit.
17:50:29 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
17:51:06 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
17:51:18 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "SDRT"4#;("yay"2k,@,k3"emal";
17:51:59 <TieSoul> !befunge98 " egnufeB">:#,_
17:52:00 <DootBot> TieSoul: Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Befunge Bef (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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17:56:07 <fizzie> !befunge98 :0g,:a`#@_1+
17:59:09 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "@Z5O"5c"@@w"fb' **+***+***0p
17:59:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Huh?]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40355&oldid=40353 * Jell-E * (+3696)
18:00:16 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "rZ5O"5c"@@w"fb' **+***+***0p#@ #.
18:01:45 <TieSoul> It actually says '<=' isn't a valid operator on nil.
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18:07:19 <fizzie> Hey, Deew, was that out of yor number-encoder thing?
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18:07:37 <DootBot> TieSoul: ☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢☢
18:07:50 <TieSoul> unicode breaks stuff it seems
18:08:00 <TieSoul> by stuff I mean IRC output
18:08:38 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ESAB"4("AMOR"4(M1N@
18:08:38 <DootBot> ... 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...
18:08:38 <DootBot> ... 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ...
18:08:38 <DootBot> ... 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
18:09:24 <TieSoul> I should probably not show that trick to the tppleague channel. They'll probably spam it.
18:11:47 <Deewiant> Still, I think it should be calculating the visual size of the output, not the number of bytes/codepoints
18:12:32 <TieSoul> though I forgot to make it cut off long non-space-separated strings
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18:13:31 <Deewiant> Did you fix the <= on nil stuff?
18:13:48 <TieSoul> No, since I have no idea what causes it
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18:14:10 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ESAB"4("AMOR"4(M1N@
18:14:12 <DootBot> TieSoul: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
18:14:21 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "ESAB"4("AMOR"4(M:*1N@
18:14:22 <DootBot> TieSoul: 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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18:22:40 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "enidilcyciB yeH">:#,_@
18:22:45 <fizzie> The IRC line length limit is in terms of bytes, so sometimes you have to consider both visual size and that.
18:23:21 <fizzie> enidilcyci-B sounds very medical.
18:24:05 <Bicyclidine> well, i'm named after phencyclidine in the first place.
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18:49:36 <TieSoul> so, this will take a while
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18:58:31 <DootBot> TieSoul: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
18:58:48 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Infinite loop, thought I'd fall for that?)
18:59:12 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Infinite loop, thought I'd fall for that?)
18:59:30 <TieSoul> So now its protection is complete
19:01:34 <TieSoul> if it has to move more than 50 spaces while in a comment or in spaces it gives the infinite loop message
19:02:41 <TieSoul> that doesn't seem to even trigger the regex
19:02:49 <DootBot> Deewiant: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
19:03:58 <TieSoul> unknown characters output a space
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19:09:39 <TieSoul> I should probably not do this:
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19:10:45 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
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19:12:01 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2cd1a'@*+**k:cd1a'@*+**k*.@
19:12:05 <DootBot> Deewiant: 249750523253596126986008191082508397745107284763545422942882318465786458116064337081871832833112412600791098611388963732504699915191404414072711783856187321879972240746841777331158760684327811981645006... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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19:14:47 <Deewiant> Well, looks like. I used 99996 and figured it'd be off by a bit due to how k works
19:15:13 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:17:18 <TieSoul> I think it didn't catch that
19:17:28 <TieSoul> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:17:58 <Deewiant> Or then your ulimits or whatever are working :-P
19:18:23 <TieSoul> Okay then I should put a limit in k.
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19:21:21 <TieSoul> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:21:42 <TieSoul> the k limit is not working
19:21:48 <doesthiswork> did you know that Noam Chomsky is going to be a judge on X-factor?
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19:22:22 <TieSoul> !befunge98 2"?!%"d***k:"?!%"d***k*.@
19:23:23 <Deewiant> !befunge98 2cd1a'@*+**k:cd1a'@*+**k*.@
19:24:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
19:24:25 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:25 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:26 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:27 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:27 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ...
19:24:28 <DootBot> ... 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (TOO MUCH k.)
19:24:55 <Deewiant> Somehow I get the feeling that the implementation of all these ad-hoc limits is in itself very ad-hoc
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19:25:43 <TieSoul> yeah somehow I get the feeling I don't know what ad-hoc means
19:26:36 <fizzie> 1. ad hoc -- (often improvised or impromptu; "an ad hoc committee meeting")
19:27:00 <TieSoul> and yes deew how did you know?
19:27:30 <DootBot> TieSoul: <CTCP> i/<CTCP> <CTCP>ALLUSERSPROFILE=C:\ProgramDataAPPDATA=C:\Users\thijsel\AppData\RoamingCOMPUTERNAME=THIJS-PCComSpec=C:\Windows\system32\cmd.exeCommonProgramFile... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
19:27:32 <Deewiant> Well, it seems like they weren't composing well
19:27:36 <TieSoul> have some environment variables
19:41:50 <J_Arcane> eek. Chatzilla did not like that last DootBot messag.e
19:41:51 <DootBot> J_Arcane: I the 1 lotid it saying the them can of? DOOT YayBot in RIOT snogging get your. <CTCP>ACTION ~ root at wanted!
19:43:27 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen gregor ever
19:43:45 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not that I remember
19:45:47 <fizzie> The logs, they are gone.
19:46:25 <fizzie> (Due to HackEgo moving to a different server.)
19:46:26 <Deewiant> 2014-08-08T10:23:26Z Gregor (dlopen@libdl.so) has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19:46:54 <DootBot> TieSoul: Log: http://sprunge.us/cWbV
19:47:56 <TieSoul> though that one only goes two days back
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20:06:35 <DootBot> TieSoul: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
20:06:55 <TieSoul> includes modified version of RubyFunge
20:09:14 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(8')f4'@*+**:R.@
20:09:21 <DootBot> Deewiant: 586876997669089452654708979872717640693786208435198134962134741380036139163380500787509566881909771662509654654910559288525538890772618823716520686427222855318484000702574189919040428742398741207850621... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:10:34 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4('8'!d'%***:R.@
20:11:19 <TieSoul> that one's gonna take some time.
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20:11:26 <TieSoul> or it's just gonna not do anything
20:13:35 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aaaa***:R.@
20:13:35 <DootBot> TieSoul: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:13:52 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aa*:*:*:*:R.@
20:14:09 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aa*:*:*:R.@
20:14:17 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(aa*:*:R.@
20:14:17 <DootBot> TieSoul: 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:14:49 <TieSoul> also why doesn't mycology have IMTH? :P (not serious)
20:15:55 <DootBot> TieSoul: 8320987112741390144276341183223364380754172606361245952449277696409600000000000000
20:16:32 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "HTMI"4("AMOR"4(MF.@
20:16:32 <DootBot> TieSoul: 402387260077093773543702433923003985719374864210714632543799910429938512398629020592044208486969404800479988610197196058631666872994808558901323829669944590997424504087073759918823627727188732519779505... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:16:49 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "HTMI"4("AMOR"4(M:*F.@
20:17:18 <TieSoul> I think the algorithm it uses is actually O(n^2)
20:18:53 <TieSoul> either O(n^2) or O(n*log(n)), depending on what the big O is of the Array#inject method.
20:20:04 <Deewiant> There's no ulimit or anything?
20:22:21 <int-e> I've just read that the universe soup would be luke-warm at best
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20:22:47 <olsner> luke-warm and beige, iirc
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20:23:02 <DootBot> Deewiant: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
20:23:49 <TieSoul> it uses separate ticks, not shared, to determine when to kill the process.
20:23:56 <int-e> so is the 1d restriction of befunge turing complete?
20:24:13 <Deewiant> -93, quite likely not; -98, quite likely yes
20:25:31 <Deewiant> !befunge98 "PXIF"4(2" @@":*:***R.@
20:25:54 <Deewiant> Oh, ruby doesn't have big enough bignums?
20:26:09 <Deewiant> Your 2y should push the limit then :-P
20:26:24 <TieSoul> I don't know the limit and can't find it on the internet
20:26:37 <Deewiant> Binary search, shouldn't be too hard
20:30:14 <Deewiant> !befunge98 1-"HTMI"4('@::*:**N.@.
20:30:28 <TieSoul> limit seems to be 2^31580670.
20:31:08 <Deewiant> 2^x is a power of 2 for any x by definition
20:31:42 <int-e> anyway, what are you calculating?
20:31:51 <int-e> TieSoul: it's divisible by 5, so no
20:32:15 <TieSoul> 31580670 log 2 = 9506728.95317
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20:35:01 <Deewiant> It's the number of bytes, not bits
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20:36:26 <fizzie> You can translate brainfuck very easily into Unefunge -- e.g. with the tape extending to left and http://sprunge.us/FPZb -- which should be enough.
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20:37:06 <fizzie> Er, the + and - are missing a \. Anyhow.
20:41:30 <fizzie> I must not have been very awake.
20:42:05 <fizzie> Apropos nothing: GMP has a feature where it can leave some amount of bits at the top of each limb; these bits are called nails.
20:42:09 <b_jonas> uh... what language is that?
20:42:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it does that for some performance reasons on some systems
20:43:06 <b_jonas> that punctuation stuff like :~\p ?
20:43:29 <fizzie> It's just Befunge. Or Unefunge in this case.
20:48:35 <int-e> [ ] > (2^32 + 2^12) `div` 136 -- compare to 31580670; strange.
20:48:43 <int-e> > (2^32 + 2^12) `div` 136
20:49:38 <int-e> 136 = 8*17, and the 17 is a bit odd. (ok, it is odd, but that's not what I mean)
20:50:51 <int-e> > 31580670 `mod` 8
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20:52:33 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
20:52:45 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
20:52:49 <DootBot> TieSoul: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
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20:53:55 <impomatic_> TIL I can buy Baklava over the internet! I never need to leave the house again...
20:53:57 <DootBot> int-e: Commands I want the gone put! doot thats FOR yeah, mega? supised 0"Y+A+Y">:#,_@ liria time than can fault nutshell make!
20:54:33 <DootBot> int-e: Source: https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/06fe15a20084430a8d12
20:54:52 <int-e> TieSoul: does it know about lambdabot now?
20:58:22 <fizzie> What does "toggling" mean in this context?
20:59:09 <TieSoul> toggle whether or not the bot responds to (and executes) funge commands
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21:03:33 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
21:03:38 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled.
21:04:19 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:05:17 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled on.
21:05:22 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled off.
21:05:25 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled on.
21:05:34 <DootBot> Befunge-98 successfully toggled off.
21:05:40 <DootBot> TieSoul: ... (Too much output or non-terminating program.)
21:06:08 -!- DootBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
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21:07:55 <int-e> lovely. https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/bignum.c#L6282
21:09:35 <olsner> I like how it seems to output a warning that the result *might* be too big, then continues
21:09:45 <olsner> and do some unexplained float math?
21:11:34 <int-e> that's "fine" ... it produces Inf later on. ;-)
21:16:30 <TieSoul> Funge is toggled off guys, just so you don't try to DoS me with it
21:16:39 <int-e> but I still don't get how 33554432 becomes 32537661, about 32/33 * 2^25...
21:17:17 <int-e> TieSoul: why don't you just set some ulimit? surely ruby can do that in a sane way...
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21:22:47 <DootBot> TieSoul: Execution timed out.
21:23:08 <TieSoul> !befunge98 "egnufeB">:#,_@
21:23:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: Execution timed out.
21:23:40 <TieSoul> I set a timeout time of 4 seconds
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21:25:45 <DootBot> TieSoul: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 (Execution timed out.)
21:26:08 <DootBot> TieSoul: 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 15 (Execution timed out.)
21:28:19 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.)
21:28:19 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:20 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:21 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
21:28:22 <DootBot> TieSoul: (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.) (Execution timed out.)
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21:30:15 <DootBot> TieSoul: 3 3 3 5 5 6 5 4 6 1 6 5 5 1 1 3 3 5 4 1 6 1 5 4 4 5 5 4 5 3 2 4 5 3 3 6 6 6 2 1 3 2 4 2 2 4 1 3 3 1 1 6 1 4 3 6 3 4 2 3 5 6 4 3 3 1 1 3 6 3 4 1 1 1 2 2 6 5 6 5 6 1 6 6 6 4 1 5 1 4 5 2 3 3 2 1 3 4 4 4 5 (Execution timed out.)
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21:31:21 <evalj> b_jonas: 2 2 6 5 3 6 4 5 4 3 4 2 1 2 4 3 1 3 1 5 4 3 2 1 6 3 6 2 6 5 5 4 6 5 2 2 5 4 5 4
21:31:31 <evalj> b_jonas: 2 1 6 4 6 6 1 5 2 3 4 5 1 6 6 4 6 3 2 1 2 4 4 3 2 6 4 3 2 2 5 3 1 3 5 4 1 1 5 1
21:33:58 <evalj> b_jonas: 3 3 5 3 3 2 2 4 5 6 3 5 2 5 4 2 2 2 4 2 2 2 4 3 6 3 4 5 6 2 4 2 5 4 4 5 1 4 4 4 6 2 5 6 1 3 1 6 4 3 1 4 3 6 1 3 4 6 4 2 2 1 2 4 2 6 1 2 4 2 4 4 1 1 1 3 2 6 4 1 1 4 5 4 4 2 3 4 5 4 2 4 4 2 6 5 5 1 6 1 6 4 6 5 5 4 5 5 5 4 6 2 3 4 4 1 6 2 3 5 1 6 4 5 4 4 2 6 2 3 2 1 4 2 2 1 6 5 4 2 6 1 4 3 6 2 1 5 4 2 6 5 3 1 2 3 3 4 3 5 4 2 4 4 4 4 3 2 3 6 5 5 4 2 5 6 4 3 1 6 2 5 1 1 3 6 4 6 2 2 3 6 ...
21:35:22 <b_jonas> ] '(Execution timed out.)',~":1+?6$~123
21:35:23 <evalj> b_jonas: 4 3 1 4 3 4 6 6 5 6 4 6 3 1 3 3 1 6 6 4 1 6 4 6 4 1 1 2 5 1 3 5 6 5 1 2 2 1 2 5 4 4 4 6 6 3 2 1 1 3 4 6 5 2 3 1 3 3 2 3 3 5 2 1 1 6 3 6 3 4 6 3 3 1 1 1 1 3 5 6 4 1 6 6 3 5 3 1 6 1 6 3 5 5 5 1 2 4 5 3 2 4 2 6 2 2 5 4 4 1 1 2 2 5 2 6 6 1 3 3 1 1 6(Execution timed out.)
21:35:33 <b_jonas> ] ' (Execution timed out.)',~":1+?6$~123
21:35:33 <evalj> b_jonas: 1 2 5 3 6 3 4 5 4 6 4 1 6 2 4 3 3 1 5 3 4 5 3 4 2 6 6 1 6 5 2 1 1 6 2 4 6 4 4 4 1 2 5 3 1 6 4 3 5 4 2 2 6 1 5 4 2 6 2 3 3 5 3 3 3 3 3 4 6 3 1 5 5 5 2 6 4 2 6 5 4 3 4 3 3 6 2 5 2 3 3 6 6 6 2 4 1 4 2 1 6 3 4 5 5 5 5 3 4 3 2 6 6 4 1 1 1 3 2 5 6 4 1 (Execution timed out.)
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21:44:03 <int-e> hmm, lovely. "if (z != 1) v = rb_big_mul(rb_int2big(neg ? -z : z), v);" <-- if z were ever equal to 1, the code would be incorrect (namely, if neg is set as well) ... however, z never equals 1 at this point. So what's the 'if' doing there ...
21:51:25 <int-e> anyway, when calculating 2^n, ruby first starts calculating with 'longs', until they overflow, then switches to bignums. so it ends up calculating (2^16)^(n `div` 16) or (2^32)^(n `div` 32), and then it estimates the number of bits in the result by multiplying the number of bits for 2^16 (2^32) by the exponent: 17*(n `div` 16) and 33*(n `div` 32), respectively. It punts if there are more than 32 * 1024 * 1024 bits by that...
21:51:48 <olsner> I think it's there to plant seeds of doubt, you get there knowing z can't be 1, but leave merely thinking it shouldn't be
21:53:07 <olsner> I'd expect the number of bits in 2^n to be a bit easier to estimate
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21:53:44 <int-e> olsner: yes, it plants seeds of doubts; without the 'if', the code is more obviously correct than with the 'if'.
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21:56:21 <fizzie> !befunge98 4;>;#+?$#;2;>;#+?$#;1;>;#+?$#;1+:6`!;>;#._$#;
21:56:26 <DootBot> fizzie: 6 1 6 6 5 2 5 1 4 2 3 4 5 4 4 1 2 6 2 6 4 4 5 6 3 2 6 3 1 5 2 4 1 1 4 2 5 4 5 5 3 6 1 6 1 1 4 1 1 6 5 6 1 1 6 2 3 4 1 3 2 4 1 2 3 4 6 4 3 1 3 3 2 3 3 2 4 1 4 6 5 6 2 5 3 2 5 6 4 1 4 2 6 3 5 4 3 5 5 1 5 (Execution timed out.)
21:57:32 <Bike> does the semicolon indicate a linebreak or is that just a straight line of code
21:57:57 <fizzie> The semicolon is the cheating-person's "jump to next semicolon" instruction, however.
21:58:08 <fizzie> (Spoiler: uniform distribution for [1,8] based on three binary decisions, then rejection sampling to get [1,6].)
22:01:57 <fizzie> (A block like ;>;#X?Y#; does either X or Y with even odds.)
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22:16:40 <int-e> > ((32*1024*1024) `div` 17 .|. 1) * 16 + (16-1)`div`2*2 - 1
22:17:02 <int-e> > ((32*1024*1024) `div` 33 .|. 1) * 32 + (32-1)`div`2*2 - 1
22:17:41 <int-e> that's the maximum exponents for 2**n that work with ruby for 32 and 64 bit platforms, respectively.
22:18:37 <int-e> (oh, and that's ignoring the integer overflows in the code)
22:20:14 <int-e> so for (2**32)**558992244657865203 it "happily" starts crunching numbers.
22:20:56 <int-e> and running out of memory (that's for 64 bit ruby, but a similar idea works for the 32bit one)
22:22:50 <int-e> Bike: in the estimation of the number of bits in the result, here: https://github.com/ruby/ruby/blob/trunk/bignum.c#L6284-L6289
22:23:32 <Bike> that's not legal, is it
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22:24:34 <fizzie> size_t is an unsigned type, and conversion from signed to unsigned is well-defined, and defined in terms of the mathematical value.
22:24:46 <fizzie> Though SIZE_MAX would be more obvious.
22:24:55 <Bike> yeah i was just gonna ask.
22:25:15 <fizzie> At least it's not ~(size_t)0.
22:25:39 <fizzie> (A number of C programmers won't even know what the ~ operator does.)
22:25:56 <elliott_> int-e: did you know ruby's GC depends heavily on C undefined behaviour and miscompiles when compilers use certain common optimisations?
22:26:20 <int-e> conversion to unsigned integers is defined as taking the value modulo 1+ the unsigned integer's maximum value.
22:26:43 <int-e> elliott_: I'm not surprised
22:26:49 <Bike> see, when i think of GC with undefined behavior, i think of that gc code that pulls register values out of a jmp_buf
22:27:18 <elliott_> http://timetobleed.com/the-broken-promises-of-mrireeyarv/
22:30:31 <int-e> elliott_: though some of the undefined behaviour that gcc took advantage of for a while heavily bit the linux kernel folks, who generally know what they're doing. (I guess C is too high-level for kernel code.)
22:31:15 <Bike> i'm gonna be using a PIC C compiler in class this term, i'm excited to learn how standard conformant it is
22:31:26 <int-e> elliott_: so I can sympathize with people relying on some undefined behaviour. For example, it's a useful assumption that pointer comparison gives a total order, but C will not give you that guarantee.
22:32:51 <int-e> (and I'm sure there are architectures that have separate memory based on data types, so that equally represented pointers point to different things)
22:33:39 <elliott_> int-e: yeah, C is sort of in a bad position.
22:33:41 <int-e> or just separate code and data with the same effect.
22:33:52 <elliott_> int-e: I'm not actually sure what the language compiled by gcc/clang these days is useful for.
22:33:59 <Bike> yeah it's weird
22:34:02 <elliott_> (when you run into UB, that is)
22:34:20 <elliott_> I guess you can write high-performance crunching code that doesn't do anything too platform-specific and it's good for that.
22:34:27 <elliott_> but I'm really not sure what the target market is, exactly.
22:34:34 <Bike> like i'm not much of a hardware hacker but as far as i can tell everybody in python/whatever reasonably thinks that C doesn't work for their application, and everyone doing shit with memory has to fight C at every turn
22:34:59 <elliott_> int-e: is that separate pointers thing allowed in C? you can go via intptr_t and stuff
22:35:34 <int-e> elliott_: hmm, not for dynamically allocated stuff, I guess. But for static arrays, I see no reason why not.
22:35:43 <elliott_> Bike: C is none of the safety with none of the power :)
22:36:11 <int-e> elliott_: since comparisons between pointers that point to different memory blocks (separately allocated, not sure what the precise term is in the C standard) are undefined.
22:36:23 <Bike> aforementioned class's professor only mentioned C and C++ as programming languages, to the predominantly EE audience
22:36:33 <elliott_> int-e: even if you cast to intptr_t first?
22:36:51 <elliott_> int x[100]; char y[100]; int main() { return ((intptr_t) x) == ((intptr_t) y); }
22:37:12 <elliott_> I... guess it could be allowed, but...
22:37:27 <elliott_> int-e: what about (char *) (intptr_t) x?
22:37:32 <int-e> I'd have to check whether there's any guarantee about accessing (char*) ...
22:37:41 <elliott_> but you're allowed to read an (int *) as a (char *).
22:37:49 <elliott_> I don't know whether you're allowed to cast through intptr_t like that.
22:38:17 <elliott_> (((char *) x) might demonstrate the point, but you could just say that gives you a different pointer to y, maybe.)
22:38:21 <int-e> elliott_: and of course there's no guarantee that those casts don't change the representation of the pointer.
22:38:46 <Bike> it's good to have access to the raw metal.
22:39:00 <elliott_> int-e: right... maybe ((void *) x) and ((void *) y) could have tag bits, and ints and chars only get a small amount of the address space
22:39:24 <fizzie> char * and void * are guaranteed to have the same representation.
22:40:30 <int-e> elliott_: more reasonably, pointer comparison might be implemented by just comparing the lower word of a two-word representation, and it may be conformant. (think DOS "large" model with segment/offset representation)
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22:41:06 <fizzie> As for comparing two pointers converted to intptr_t, I'm sure that's *legal* in the sense that you can compare two integers, but you can directly compare two pointers *for equality* anyway.
22:41:25 <FreeFull> Swapping (something) mod N #= 0 for something #= N*_ made my code 3 times faster :D
22:41:49 <int-e> fizzie: but is there a guarantee that p == q implies (intptr_t)p == (intptr_t)q?
22:42:01 <fizzie> I don't know, but why would you do that instead of p == q?
22:42:41 <Bike> fizzie we're deep in lawyering now, you can't ask "why would you" questions
22:42:46 <int-e> fizzie: to get an actual pointer comparison, maybe, if that's possible?
22:42:48 <Bike> that's just gauche
22:43:28 <fizzie> I mean, the original question was just about comparing pointers to different objects, and for == and != that's fine.
22:43:36 <int-e> presumably (intptr_t)p == (intptr_t)q implies that p and q point to the same thing in memory, provided that they have the same type (but not vice versa)
22:44:16 <fizzie> The conversion to intptr_t is only defined from a pointer to void.
22:44:59 <int-e> T *p; p == (T *)(void *)p is ensured, you can cast to (void *) and back.
22:45:23 <int-e> and then p == (T *)(void *)(intptr_t)(void *)p follows.
22:46:27 <fizzie> "Two pointers compare equal if and only if both are null pointers, both are pointers to the same object -- or function, both are pointers to one past the last element of the same array object, or one is a pointer to one past the end of one array object and the other is a pointer to the start of a different array object that happens to immediately follow the first array object in the address ...
22:46:48 <fizzie> I don't think (intptr_t)(void *)p == (intptr_t)(void *)q is any different from (void *)p == (void *)q.
22:46:59 <Bike> huh, i didn't know there was even an address apce concept exactly
22:47:02 <fizzie> Except if the optional intptr_t type does not exist.
22:47:38 <Bike> i guess i should figure out how much of this rust avoids
22:49:03 <fizzie> The trimmed-out part was "same object (including a pointer to an object and a subobject at its beginning)".
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22:51:54 <int-e> fizzie: Interesting. The "only if" is new w.r.t. C99.
22:53:39 <oerjan> --- quit: boily (Quit: MAKALÖSE CHICKEN) <-- i seem to be having an effect on boily
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22:57:17 <lambdabot> tswett said 8h 14m 26s ago: Well, when you select from a continuous distribution, the probability of getting any particular number is 0, so you could say that the sum of uncountably many 0s can be 1.
22:57:56 <Bike> actually a friend of mine wrote about exactly that in a blogpost today. weird
22:58:24 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the "void * and char * have the same representation -- [which is] meant to imply interchangeability as arguments to functions, return values from functions, and members of unions" rules mean that for T *p, p == (T *)(char *)(void *)p is also guaranteed, and that the conversion to void * is required to yield an identical representation than a conversion to char * for the same ...
22:58:42 <fizzie> p == (T *)(char *)(T *)(void *)p is obviously true.
22:59:57 <oerjan> @tell tswett Rather, we say that measures are not uncountably additive.
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23:03:14 <int-e> fizzie: I would go out on a limb and call 6.5.9.6 (Two pointers compare equal etc.) wrong; for comparison, look at all the cases that 6.5.8.5 (When two pointers are compared, etc.) leaves undefined...
23:03:43 <fizzie> But that's for an entirely different set of comparison operators.
23:04:09 <int-e> Adding the "only if" was just a quick way to fend off the idea of implementing pointer equality as always giving true.
23:04:09 <fizzie> You can't require relational operators and equality operators to have the same rules.
23:07:44 <int-e> fizzie: Ok, let me argue differently: How is a compiler supposed to implement that definition? As stated, the comparison operator has to figure out whether a pointer points to some object or not; p == p is only true if p actually points to something (or is a null pointer).
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23:11:24 <HackEgo> [U+2ADA PITCHFORK WITH TEE TOP]
23:12:36 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Hello atriq
23:13:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
23:13:05 <HackEgo> â&}Fðqu¾ÃÔÔrÙJo,U¼ø©áwS9i×ù\B |©Ai6"Ãòø¼øîÕÞéÛ~wñ|:Öÿpoµqì=@g5sr©©ÃwCõTÞk$ȼLÑgÚ\¾&§]ykL1lí¥ú{OF±^ì[B)Ô÷àøíl[#ÒØ8lÜ¡}"ß7²ÁÖà'wO~]tÖEvìÎÖeA×碷e:Cv¥!¼¹¹ËêôyFÙ×Ðm!KUÔ¯§òßOËL²Újg£î4è ÖÏ×»KgxÙû¡ÖæÀõUWòB)¶óéñ0ò¡¡ûl~zÈìá£~n!RÒÞ)n+àFÊlGÒG0ZÊ/ð`).x0öl!h§-ñÏJíâµÎð°£%9@Ô~ñ¨¬É¹s¸I¥?aJ
23:13:09 <DootBot> TieSoul-mobile: Log: http://sprunge.us/YVIT
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23:29:13 <fizzie> int-e: Well. There seems to be no way of a strictly conforming program to construct a pointer value that wouldn't be null or point to an object without risking undefined behavior, so you could vaguely argue that p == p need not make that determination. (If it was a pointer to an object that has reached the end of its lifetime, its value has now become indeterminate, and p == p is undefined; if ...
23:29:19 <fizzie> ... it was constructed by manipulating the bits of the representation, there's no way to be sure it is not a trap representation.)
23:29:22 <fizzie> int-e: But I do agree the "only if" is a bit dubious. Still, I think they at least wanted to imply that "p == q" should never be true if p and q point to different objects.
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23:33:31 <atriq> boily: my bouncer, which for one reason or another I am not using, is playing up
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23:33:55 <fizzie> C89 draft has: "If two pointers to object or incomplete types compare equal, they point to the same object. If two pointers to functions compare equal, they point to the same function. If two pointers point to the same object or function, they compare equal."
23:33:59 <fizzie> With a relatively silly footnote "40. If invalid prior pointer operations, such as accesses outside array bounds, produced undefined behavior, the effect of subsequent comparisons is undefined."
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23:40:55 <boily> atriq: outrageous.
23:40:55 <int-e> fizzie: yes, I agree that they probably intended that. I've found another obstacle to the typed memory idea (without tagging the pointers somehow): memcpy works on memory representations of objects (6.2.6.1.4). so I guess that leaves the (not too unusual) code/data separation.
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23:41:47 <oerjan> <TieSoul> though that one only goes two days back <-- i think he meant searchable logs. the tunes logs are still doing fine otherwise.
23:42:21 <oerjan> and presumably the codu logs will be fine if gregor ever returns
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23:43:14 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, I think you need to tag char *s and void *s; but I think you can get some leverage out of the different memory spaces, so that an int *p and double *q can have identical memory representations while pointing at different objects. (You might need to stick unions into some lowest-common-denominator memory space, and make the tagged-char-pointer comparison operation slightly hairy.)
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23:44:14 <fizzie> Because for union { int i; double d; } u you must have (char *)&u.i == (char *)&u.d.
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23:45:26 <fizzie> (All the oodles of code freely dlsym'ing out functions through void * straws might object to the code/data separation too.)
23:46:02 <fizzie> POSIX did guarantee conversion of function pointers to void * and back, IIRC.
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23:49:26 <fizzie> The "Embedded C" standard adds the concept of named address spaces, though it's orthogonal to the type specifiers; they're just additional type qualifiers.
23:49:56 <oerjan> `addquote <impomatic_> TIL I can buy Baklava over the internet! I never need to leave the house again...
23:49:57 <HackEgo> 1216) <impomatic_> TIL I can buy Baklava over the internet! I never need to leave the house again...
23:50:25 <fizzie> Those address spaces can nest, and a pointer to a type qualified with one can point to objects in that or in all the subset address spaces.