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00:51:35 <boily> oerjan: armenian letters are somewhat approximatively related to latin letters, with some graphical concordances (e.g. h and o).
00:51:52 <boily> SgeoPhone: to which degree isn't your computer real?
00:52:54 <SgeoPhone> To the degree that the device i am using cannot be used for most of thw things a laptop or desktop can, and to the degree that my laptop s unusable
00:53:09 <oerjan> alan turing would have loved to have a computer as powerful as SgeoPhone's phone.
00:56:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42306&oldid=42304 * Esowiki201529A * (+2)
00:56:18 <Jafet> Unfortunately, they were not coming out at the time.
00:56:24 <zzo38> A phone normally doesn't have a full keyboard or a programming environment though; a computer without a keyboard and programming environment isn't a particularly good computer.
00:57:42 <SgeoPhone> I think there are programming environments. Just not one that allows creation of programs that are first class citizens on the device
00:58:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42307&oldid=42306 * Esowiki201529A * (+360) /* Description */
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00:59:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42308&oldid=42307 * Esowiki201529A * (-55) /* Description */
00:59:31 <SgeoPhone> IRC keeps disconnecting when i get A call
01:01:41 <int-e> Funny that Esowiki201529A has not removed my link yet...
01:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42309&oldid=42308 * Esowiki201529A * (+87)
01:03:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42310&oldid=42309 * Esowiki201529A * (+17)
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01:05:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42311&oldid=42303 * Oerjan * (+14) I think this word might, though.
01:06:34 <boily> who is Esowiki201529A?
01:07:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42312&oldid=42310 * Esowiki201529A * (+305)
01:07:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42313&oldid=42312 * Esowiki201529A * (+1)
01:07:34 <oerjan> some esolanger of dubious taste.
01:09:14 <int-e> it really shouldn't be in the 2003 category, should it?
01:10:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42314&oldid=42313 * Oerjan * (-19) Category should be for this article's language only
01:13:57 <int-e> Reading Andy D's proof from http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=710 that "consistent guessing" is weaker than the halting problem leaves me wondering whether there is any CG-Oracle that is computable given an oracle for the halting problem, and still weaker in that it cannot be used to solve the halting problem...
01:15:18 <int-e> (As far as I've followed the construction, I think it would need a Halting oracle for Turing machines with a Halting oracle. Tricky beast, and a tricky proof.)
01:22:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42315&oldid=42314 * Esowiki201529A * (+64)
01:24:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42316&oldid=42315 * 213.162.68.171 * (-19) Remove 2003 category again.
01:29:08 <boily> the dubiousity is steadily increasing.
01:30:01 <oerjan> i'm going to assume it was a race condition.
01:33:06 <SgeoPhone> On a related note, i don't think my dad knows how time works
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01:36:59 <int-e> (Of course I took "how time works" at its most fundamental meaning ... where does time come from, and what makes it, so to say, tick?)
01:37:27 <zzo38> There is no time...only, there is spacetime.
01:38:43 <int-e> That's a nicely working theory. Will it work tomorrow? Will there *be* a tomorrow? Or anything besides this instant?
01:39:10 * int-e tries hard to remember what kind of #esoteric channel this place is...
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01:40:55 <oerjan> time is an illusion. lunch-time doubly so.
01:41:15 <int-e> oh yeah, the nearest place to eat...
01:42:16 <int-e> oerjan: I think you should've used s/-//, it would be easier to decipher
01:43:20 <int-e> Oh, it happens in the very beginning.
01:43:38 <int-e> Maybe I should reread the whole trilogy another time...
01:44:20 <int-e> oerjan: I wish I would've remembered the reply: "Very deep," said Arthur, "you should send that in to the Reader's Digest. They've got a page for people like you."
02:21:01 <boily> I like the Reader's Digest, if only because it helps me forget the moments I was stupidly waiting for my dentist with a discharged cellphone.
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02:52:36 <oerjan> int-e: it's ok, i didn't remember the reply either.
02:53:23 <int-e> oerjan: I meant, if I had remembered, I would have used it on you in some other occasion(s) :)
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05:02:24 <zzo38> To make random number uniform with any given range (0 to N-1), what I have done is you take as many random bits as needed (for the higher or equal power of 2), if it is too big then try again. So if N=3 then you have bits 00,01,10,11 but if 11 you must try again. If you only need a 1/3 probability (and don't need to distinguish between the other two possibilities), then you can optimize this algorithm, and it looks like in Pokemon card that is wha
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05:28:33 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: a naive rejection sampling is not optimal, though; for 1/5 probability you would reject 101 through 111, but adding one bit and adjustement yields further 5/16 probability to finish; compare that with adding 3 bits which will only yield 15/64 probability to finish.
05:31:28 <zzo38> I was talking about the N=3 case and didn't think about the other cases, but I suppose you can optimize it in other ways too
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07:16:56 <zzo38> Still the algorithm I specified is the way to generate random 0 to N-1 if N isn't known before this subroutine is called, and I have done in C code and in 6502 code. There might be better way, although I don't know. With a 6502 code you can count how many cycles it requires!
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09:27:00 <Taneb> Why are D10s such a lame shape
09:29:44 <f|`-`|f> you can make a roller die, or a ten sided prism a lot like the d8, Taneb
09:30:33 <Taneb> fungot, what do you think of D10s?
09:30:33 <fungot> Taneb: i just used google image search, even. let*-optionals would be a small icon in tray to sync the clipboards maybe.
09:36:32 <myname> i like those longer d10
09:37:52 <myname> http://www.gmdice.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/d/1/d10-crystal-oblivion-red.png
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10:02:00 <f|`-`|f> that's a roller die, myname
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13:13:22 <int-e> zzo38: http://sprunge.us/WCAD looks like it could be suitable for simple processors.
13:17:44 <boily> fungot: fungellot. still trapped?
13:17:44 <fungot> boily: and more half-finished scheme implementations. the question here is, how would i know
13:17:58 <boily> fungot: because of the implementations, duh.
13:17:58 <fungot> boily: i think it could be another one
13:18:07 <boily> fungot: you've got another reason?
13:18:07 <fungot> boily: what about smileys like this ( if e1 ( error e2) e3)
13:18:28 <boily> fungot: those aren't smileys, they're sexpes.
13:18:28 <fungot> boily: i'll write a forum post about a store in helsinki which sells african decoration stuff etc for ridiculously low prices.
13:18:54 * boily takes a sloooow step back away from the sentient 'got...
13:22:49 <int-e> uh, has google always perverted the lower case g like that?
13:23:15 <boily> int-hello. how come?
13:23:58 <int-e> Apparently it has.
13:25:10 <boily> their g looks fine to me.
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13:27:15 <int-e> The lower loop is attached in a weird (wrong ;-) ) way.
13:27:51 <int-e> the attachment is usually much further to the left.
13:28:28 <int-e> But I have not noticed in 15 years, I wonder what triggered this observation now.
13:30:38 <int-e> (actually I was hoping for an easter logo)
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14:04:20 <boily> @tell oerjan Joyoeurjanses Pâques!
14:05:20 <boily> b_joyeusnas pâques à toi aussi!
14:09:51 <boily> how do you hungarianly wish Happy Easter?
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14:18:39 <b_jonas> boily: ask http://www.omniglot.com/language/phrases/easter.htm
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14:55:33 <lambdabot> CYQB 051400Z 28014KT 20SM FEW052 FEW080 SCT200 M05/M15 A2997 RMK CU1AC1CI2 SLP153
14:57:17 <lambdabot> ENVA 051450Z 14005KT 9999 -SHSN BKN029 05/M05 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT
14:57:34 <oerjan> nevertheless, i saw snow a moment ago.
14:58:35 <lambdabot> ESSB 051450Z 36010KT 330V040 9999 SHRA GS FEW022CB SCT040 05/01 Q1020 R30/19//60
14:58:43 <FireFly> It was snowing a few hours ago
14:58:56 <lambdabot> LOWI 051450Z 27007KT 9999 -SHSN FEW010 BKN050 03/M00 Q1019 TEMPO SHSN
14:58:58 <FireFly> oops, "a few" is 10 apparently
14:59:45 <lambdabot> EGLL 051450Z VRB04KT 9999 BKN038 12/04 Q1027
14:59:59 <fizzie> I feel strange, being at the warmest place when people are @metaring.
15:00:15 <oerjan> <Taneb> Why are D10s such a lame shape <-- just use a D20 with duplicate numbers hth
15:00:42 <oerjan> it's the platonic solution
15:03:31 <fizzie> "Or cut a D20 in half. Wait..."
15:03:33 <lambdabot> KSFO 051456Z 14004KT 10SM FEW020 BKN030 BKN055 12/07 A2991 RMK AO2 RAB35E44 SLP129 P0000 60000 T01170067 55004
15:04:11 <boily> f|`-`|f: why the questionment?
15:04:40 <f|`-`|f> To violate your sense of world, and make you truly wonder
15:04:51 <f|`-`|f> Why the hell don't they have a specific question
15:05:52 <boily> fungot: f|`-`|f makes less sense than you. how is it possible?
15:06:12 <fizzie> Your fungot quota is up!
15:06:12 <fungot> fizzie: so, is the element before the current one. fnord
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18:41:50 <oren> hello, I have awoken from my eternal, alcohol-induced slumber
18:42:58 <fungot> b_jonas: it's just fnord of the object you pass in variable column names??? i have
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19:26:34 <fungot> FireFly: set! was perfectly fine for scheme-hacking weather
19:26:53 <FireFly> fungot: I wish you would set! the weather to be a bit warmer tomorrow
19:26:53 <fungot> FireFly: my brain is scrambled too, just so it can
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19:46:23 <oren> Why doesn't the C standard library provide a "print quoted string" function!?!?!
19:48:28 <oren> Well, I guess I'll have to write fputqs myself
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20:31:16 <tswett> So are there any unsolved yes-or-no questions in mathematics where about half of people think they're true and about half think they're false?
20:31:57 <tswett> Seems like everyone thinks the Riemann hypothesis, the Goldbach conjecture, and the Collatz conjecture are all true (and there's some pretty nice evidence for all of these), and that P != NP.
20:32:34 <b_jonas> tswett: I don't think the Collatz conjecture is held so generally
20:32:57 <b_jonas> tswett: but there are much better examples where half of the people think it's true
20:33:06 <b_jonas> there's, for example, the Hedetniemi conjecture about graph products
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20:34:32 <int-e> that's a nice one, thanks
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20:37:46 <b_jonas> I'm not sure it's really "half", but I think at least one famous mathematicians has declared they conjecture it and at least one has declared they conjecture the opposite
20:38:03 <b_jonas> obviously not everyone will have an opinion
20:38:51 <oren> tswett: My first thought was "the question of whether math talent is inborn" but that's really a biological question about mathematics.
20:39:18 <oren> or rather about the biology of mathematcians
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20:39:33 <b_jonas> oren: besides not being a mathematical question, that's not even a yes-no question
20:40:30 <tswett> Now, here's a question.
20:41:01 <tswett> Is there a "simple and easy to calculate" function N -> N whose image contains infinitely many numbers, all of which are prime?
20:41:21 <int-e> b_jonas: did you arrive at that conclusion formally or intuitively? (scnr)
20:42:56 <int-e> > nubBy (\a b -> 1 < gcd a b) [2..]
20:42:58 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
20:43:37 <int-e> (what does "simple and easy to calculate" mean?)
20:44:14 <myname> infinitely many numbers, all of which are prime
20:44:16 <ais523> tswett: there's a moderately well known N^lots -> N function whose image contains all prime numbers, and no other positive numbres
20:44:19 <int-e> > nubBy (((1<).).gcd) [2..]
20:44:20 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,11,13,17,19,23,29,31,37,41,43,47,53,59,61,67,71,73,79,83,89,97,101,...
20:44:31 <int-e> myname: but the image is finite
20:44:50 <tswett> The set {2} certainly isn't "infinitely many".
20:45:19 <tswett> int-e: well, let's say "easier to calculate than just finding the smallest prime number larger than n".
20:45:30 <int-e> ais523: My memory may be failing me, but isn't it -> Z, and we know nothing about the negative numbers?
20:45:36 <ais523> boily: re your lambdabot message: the NetHack devteam finally realised they probably weren't going to get another release out by themselves, and hired some variant developers to help out
20:45:49 <lambdabot> [2,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31,33,35,37,39,41,43,45,47,49,51,53...
20:45:56 <ais523> it isn't what you were asking for, but it's similar enough that I mentioned it anyway
20:46:04 <boily> this is approximatively good enough for primes, and is easy to compute.
20:46:12 <boily> ais523: oh! thanks for the heads up.
20:48:17 <tswett> I guess you could turn it into a function N -> N by using an isomorphism between N and N^lots.
20:48:29 <tswett> ais523: so what's the function?
20:48:45 <ais523> tswett: I don't know it offhand, it's some huge polynomial that was compiled from Lisp
20:48:51 <ais523> but being a polynomial, it's easy to calculate ;-)
20:50:06 <oren> how can a polynomial have an image containing only integers?
20:50:17 <tswett> By having only integers in its domain.
20:50:30 <int-e> b_jonas: we could have a poll for the second conjecture from http://int-e.eu/~bf3/squares/ (we're tiling rectangles with a minimal number of squares of integer size. if we scale the rectange (multiplying both sides by a positive integer), can the number of required squares become smaller?)
20:51:25 <ais523> int-e: ooh, that's an interesting question
20:52:21 <b_jonas> int-e: interesting, have asked that on Mathoverflow?
20:54:26 <b_jonas> int-e: also, Erich Friedman might be the right person to ask that
20:54:49 <b_jonas> obviously either of these only after you've tried to search existing literature
20:56:12 <oren> Equivalently: The fewest squares solution to an NxM rectangle must, if N and M are both divisible by K, consist of squares whose side lengths are divisible by K
20:56:41 <b_jonas> oren: what if there's more than one solution with the fewest squares?
20:57:34 <ais523> "at least one fewest squares solution" if we're trying to be equivalent to the old wording
20:57:49 <ais523> "all fewest squares solutions" seems like a more interesting wording, though
20:58:13 <int-e> b_jonas: I probably won't, not any time soon anyway.
21:00:09 <b_jonas> int-e: http://mathoverflow.net/q/44524/5340 may be relevant
21:01:57 <b_jonas> int-e: and it links to http://mathoverflow.net/q/116382/5340
21:02:20 <b_jonas> which in turn links back to you
21:02:37 <b_jonas> and asks precisely about that conjecture you're asking
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21:34:56 <oerjan> <int-e> (what does "simple and easy to calculate" mean?) <-- what about an algorithm which finds a >= n digit prime in time O(n^k) ?
21:37:03 <oerjan> that may not be simple enough, but it should e.g. crush all current prime records easily.
21:39:46 <b_jonas> oerjan: the point is, it's a well-known conjecture whether there's a _deterministic_ algorithm for that, but there's a very easy randomized algorithm
21:40:03 <b_jonas> the randomized algorithm is to just pick a random n digit number and prime test it
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21:40:23 <b_jonas> the prime test is fast (polynomial time) and there's O(1/n) chance that the number is a prime
21:40:48 <ais523> b_jonas: well, can't you replace the random generation, with any pseudorandom generation that isn't above-average at hitting composite numbers?
21:41:05 <b_jonas> but the prime records are so big that even prime testing is slow for them, and they actually use special form numbers with faster prime tests, specifically Mersenne numbers (numbers of the form 2**n-1 where n is an integer)
21:41:28 <b_jonas> ais523: that's why it's a conjecture (and because people generally think randomness doesn't help anything)
21:41:49 <b_jonas> but I think it's still open, and an important open problem
21:42:20 <oerjan> yes, it's also a conjecture that randomness doesn't help, although that may be at P vs. NP level of difficulty
21:42:30 <b_jonas> ais523: http://polymathprojects.org/2009/07/27/proposal-deterministic-way-to-find-primes/
21:42:44 <b_jonas> that might have some useful descriptions and links
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21:53:16 <oerjan> it feels slightly wrong to link a fanfiction when i don't even read the real thing but http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/?comic=70
21:53:36 <oerjan> wait, this applies to 99% of DMM's stuff
21:59:55 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:10:06 <int-e> /topic Cheesecake! | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/
22:12:07 <ais523> int-e: escaped intentionally?
22:12:26 <int-e> yes, we have +t set at the moment.
22:13:00 <ais523> hmm, did the trollbot come back?
22:14:33 <int-e> (it's actually quite hard to escape things accidentally in irssi; the way to do that is to start a line with a slash, then a space: / /topic ...)
22:15:37 <ais523> ah, Konversation escapes with just //
22:16:07 -!- erdic has joined.
22:16:31 <b_jonas> int-e: the easiest way I accidentally escape is by trying to press / but the layout is set to Hungarian so it types - instead
22:20:02 <int-e> "Verify this email address ([email protected]) and attach it to your account?"
22:20:15 <int-e> I think I'm beginning to HATE cloudfront.
22:21:51 <int-e> (as a "security feature", they replace strings that look like email addresses by javascript snippets)
22:26:09 <myname> it is a valid email in the source?
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22:36:39 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
22:44:29 <oerjan> <ais523> hmm, did the trollbot come back? <-- yes it did
22:54:30 * boily is sad the chännel's been +ted...
22:54:49 <oerjan> it is, indeed, untraditional.
22:55:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:55:26 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -t.
22:55:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
22:55:40 <oerjan> yay i got the syntax right
22:56:01 <shachaf> oerjan: advanced irc users do it in one command hth
22:56:20 <shachaf> e.g. /mode #esoteric -to oerjan
22:56:39 <boily> you change the mode of #esoteric to oerjan???
22:56:54 * boily TILed that oerjan is an IRC channel flag.
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23:07:28 -!- int-e has set topic: Educated Cheesecake! | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
23:07:36 <int-e> oerjan: is that wise enough for you?
23:08:11 <oerjan> i find that question a bit academic
23:08:55 <boily> does the cheesecake have a generous coulis de framboises on it?
23:09:39 <oerjan> @google coulis de framboises
23:09:41 <lambdabot> http://www.marmiton.org/recettes/recette_coulis-de-framboises_11316.aspx
23:09:41 <lambdabot> Title: Coulis de framboises : Recette de Coulis de framboises - Marmiton
23:13:40 <oren> what's your favorite number? mine is 7
23:25:45 <int-e> I suspect that if I start weighing all natural numbers against one another, I'll never finish. Fiendish.
23:27:06 <shachaf> int-e: you're thinking of conatural numbers hth
23:31:50 * oren doesn't know what a conatural number is, and bing is not helpful
23:32:29 <nys> natural numbers with the arrows reversed
23:33:49 <int-e> I guess it's a co-free datatype, a final co-F-algebra with F(A) = 1+A.
23:34:25 <int-e> (Whereas the natural numbers are a free datatype, an initial F-algebra, with the same F.)
23:35:05 <int-e> The difference is that omega is a conatural number, the conatural number that is its own successor.
23:35:54 <int-e> just regard it as a stream over ().
23:37:16 <oren> So it's the naturals, plus Ω where succ(Ω)=Ω . got it
23:37:28 <int-e> ... I should've written "F-coalgebra".
23:37:42 <int-e> It's the cofree F-coalgebra, with F as above.
23:39:42 <shachaf> A cofree F-coalgebra works out to the same thing as the cofree comonad on F, right?
23:40:14 <shachaf> So I guess in that sense you can say that CofreeComonad F () is the greatest fixed point of F.
23:40:30 <shachaf> But that seems pretty different from saying that the greatest fixed point itself is cofree.
23:42:06 <boily> I know some of these words.
23:42:10 <oren> Wat.are you people speaking English?
23:44:12 <boily> it seems so; or something vaguely similar.
23:44:45 <int-e> shachaf: Ok, let me go one step back. I want a final F-coalgebra, whereas the datatype is an initial F-algebra.
23:45:23 <int-e> naturals, in this case.
23:48:12 <boily> oren: I fear they are afflicted with acute fungotitis. I can't make sense at all about what they're communicating.
23:48:12 <fungot> boily: since it counts block allocation amounts in the filesystem
23:48:48 <shachaf> Anyway if it is cofree I'd like to know how.
23:49:01 <shachaf> Especially if there's some relationship to monoids.
23:49:22 <shachaf> boily: it's not very complicated but there are a lot of words
23:50:21 <boily> I know I read some blog posts about F-algebras and stuff like that, that on the spur of the moment it seemed all clear, but by the next day it had all but evaporated from my mind.
23:59:47 <shachaf> I guess the question I was asking before was along the lines of: Lists are free monoids. Are colists any sort of universal monoid construction?