00:00:28 <ais523> I'm surprised that lists aren't self-dual
00:00:41 <ais523> although, the list comonad is for /nonempty/ lists specifically
00:01:25 <ais523> (that actually came up at work, someone was presenting some heavily comonad-based research, and some of the people there didn't know what the list comonad was)
00:01:37 <shachaf> I don't think "colist" is dual in the usual sense.
00:01:55 <shachaf> It's the greatest fixed point vs. the list fixed point of some functor.
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00:05:43 <int-e> shachaf: Ok, I think I've got it. The final F-coalgebra is cofree over an empty set of cogenerators, so applying the term is awkward, because usually the cogenerator object is not fixed like that.
00:06:58 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
00:07:09 <int-e> shachaf: In contrast to the cofree comonad, there is also less structure: The cofree comonad has an F-coalgebra, and furthermore the comonad signature, with extract mapping to the cogenerators.
00:09:23 <shachaf> What are cogenerators? Why is it an empty rather than a singleton set of them? I think I'm missing something.
00:09:57 <int-e> In Cofree f a, a are cogenerators.
00:10:12 <shachaf> "Cofree" is the cofree comonad?
00:10:19 <int-e> Oh it must be a singleton.
00:11:03 <shachaf> OK, I guess there are at least two different ways of getting the cofree comonad, as a cofree f-coalgebra and as a cofree comonoid in the category of endofunctors.
00:11:03 <int-e> Too much dualizing. I'd rather discuss free/initial things...
00:11:30 <shachaf> OK, free/initial things are fine.
00:11:43 <shachaf> In which case it's the empty set.
00:11:47 <int-e> shachaf: the final f-coalgebra does not have the comonad structure. that's what I was trying to get art.
00:12:20 <shachaf> Right, I thought that's what I was getting at too.
00:12:29 <shachaf> In what sense is it cofree?
00:13:11 <shachaf> OK, I think I see what you mean.
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00:14:24 <int-e> In that if you fix the cogenerators to be a final object (different category, and awkward, as said above), you get the additional arrows to the cogenerator objects that the cofree definition has for ... uhm ... free.
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00:15:47 <int-e> So, to summarize, I should just say 'final' or 'terminal' or whichever, not 'cofree', to avoid confusion.
00:16:09 <ais523> I dunno, pretty much every term in maths means like ten different things by now
00:16:26 <ais523> terminology like "terminal" isn't so useful without knowing what category you're talking about
00:16:52 <ais523> (in the sort of categories I work with, the final object is normally the unit data type, e.g. () in Haskell or Ocaml)
00:17:36 <shachaf> i,i in the category of this airport, this object is initial terminal
00:18:32 <ais523> hmm, if the same object is both initial and terminal
00:18:46 <ais523> what restrictions does that put on the category
00:19:09 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_object
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00:19:51 <shachaf> Hmm, I thought that article said more about it.
00:21:28 <shachaf> int-e: https://www.fpcomplete.com/user/dolio/many-roads-to-free-monads
00:21:42 <shachaf> "One final aside is that there is a well known theorem that "left adjoints preserve colimits" (and right adjoints, limits). Free F is a left adjoint, so it will take an initial object 0 to the initial F-algebra."
00:21:52 <shachaf> I remember talking to dolio about this.
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00:39:58 <Decim> The fires of hell will eclipse your soul and drag you into the void of despair as you watch all happiness that you cling to fade away
00:40:07 <Decim> Idk what I'm talking about
00:40:28 <ais523> I don't know who you're talking to
00:40:32 <ais523> but that's not a very nice introduction, really
00:40:49 <ais523> HackEgo: you're being slow today
00:41:00 <HackEgo> Decim: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:41:00 <HackEgo> Decim: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:41:23 <Decim> Don't welcome me because I've litterally been welcomed on every single one of my clients for 5 months
00:41:38 <ais523> well, if we don't know who you are
00:41:42 <ais523> you're going to be welcomed a lot
00:41:50 <ais523> but I did it in black and white this time, for a change
00:41:59 <Decim> Oh people know who I am
00:42:39 <Decim> Everything is black and white because of the default filter on Andchat
00:43:23 <oerjan> ais523: it was obvious to me who it was after the first two lines hth
00:43:42 <ais523> oerjan: well you're paying more attention than I am
00:43:45 <ais523> although, it clearly isn't me or you
00:44:49 <Decim> oerjan stop spotting me out, I'm not trying to hide behind nicks I don't even have a vpn
00:45:15 <ais523> normally you can tell who the regulars here are by the writing style
00:45:18 <Decim> I just like these cooool names whilst I'm programming stuff
00:45:30 <FireFly> ais523: I believe that's what oerjan did
00:45:41 <ais523> e.g. do lines start with a capital letter, do they end with a full stop, do nickpings use a comma or colon, do they use "hth" a lot
00:45:46 <oren> i just usemyreal name
00:45:56 <oerjan> FireFly: also the nick, really.
00:46:09 <Decim> My real name is reallllly long
00:46:12 <oren> Yeah, my real name is oren
00:46:18 <FireFly> oh, I didn't realise Oren was a name
00:46:30 <oren> it is normally spelled orin
00:47:07 <FireFly> I would use my real name, but someone registered it 12 years ago
00:47:18 <FireFly> (okay, I wouldn't use it either way)
00:47:20 <Decim> So I don't use it as a nick as most irc clients can't parse 29 letter names
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00:49:02 <oerjan> i think shachaf got fed up again
00:49:16 <Decim> How do you your name oerjan
00:51:10 <ais523> I thought ø was an "aw" sound (like in "forward", which is why oerjan used that word)?
00:51:32 <oerjan> it's a fronted rounded vowel
00:52:11 <ais523> maybe I'm thinking of a different letter
00:52:46 <oerjan> i'm just joking about it being the obvious pronunciation of each letter in norwegian
00:52:57 <Decim> So I was pronouncing it correctly
00:53:34 <oerjan> the j is essentially an english y yes
00:53:44 * int-e wonders how different Ø is from Ö.
00:53:55 <ais523> I mentally pronounce your name as though it were English
00:54:08 <ais523> although we don't get a lot of "oer" in English, "ur" is close enough for mental pronunciation
00:54:21 <ais523> because the purpose of a mental pronunciation is mostly to be able to type things correctly
00:54:23 <Decim> How do you pronounce œ then?
00:54:25 <oerjan> int-e: more tense i think
00:54:27 <ais523> (I type by sound for some reason)
00:54:33 <oerjan> assuming you mean the german
00:55:05 <int-e> oerjan: and you mean the Ö?
00:55:28 <oerjan> the norwegian is more tense and pouted
00:55:40 <Decim> Pronouncing oerjans name in Enochian is quite trouble some
00:56:04 <oerjan> the n is also pretty close to normal for english
00:56:30 <oerjan> the a is short but otherwise close to a in father
00:56:56 <oerjan> the r is a tap, so you're all hopeless on that >:)
00:59:41 <Decim> Med ("grapha" sounded in the throat) don ged un drux is your name in enochian oerjan
00:59:50 <oerjan> ais523: "ur" is probably the closest you get in english
01:00:10 <Decim> I'm learning this language just to have fun
01:02:15 <Decim> Have you been making anything in esolangs lately oerjan or nah
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01:23:04 <OrenWatson> I am writing some more horrifying C code! the function sc7cpy allows to copy a linked list of integers by sc7cpy("dR",ll);
01:23:49 <OrenWatson> you can copy a tree of integers by sc7cpy("dRR",tree);
01:24:24 <ais523> what would be the smallest change to NetHack needed to make it TC
01:24:28 <ais523> ideally actually TC, not just bounded-storage
01:24:56 <OrenWatson> hmm, how detailed is the enemy behaviour?
01:25:24 <ais523> the enemy behaviour is mostly incomprehensible, because its bugs obscure its intended features
01:25:31 <ais523> although I've fixed it a bunch in my own variant
01:26:08 <int-e> maybe you can find a buffer overflow that leads to arbitrary code execution... just a thought.
01:26:57 <oerjan> i say that doesn't count
01:27:06 <oerjan> it needs to be in portable nethack
01:27:27 <ais523> int-e: yes, there are a ton of those, but I was thinking in the game mechanics
01:27:47 <oerjan> ais523: add a turing monster hth
01:28:02 <int-e> oerjan: it's the best I could do with my very limited knowledge of nethack
01:28:19 <ais523> I'd love it if people could automate the dungeon Dwarf Fortress-style
01:28:51 <ais523> I guess you'd have to involve items somewhere, because they're the only thing in the game that you can have unlimited amounts of under game mechanics (ofc the game itself runs into trouble tracking them eventually, but I just consider that to be an imperfect interp_
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01:33:20 <int-e> an imperfect interp_?
01:33:54 * int-e is unsure whether that got cut off.
01:34:07 * int-e realizes that _ is next to )
01:34:20 * boily summons an imp_ “RISE, MIGHTY FUNGOT!”
01:34:35 <oerjan> the imp tells you to shout less
01:35:02 <fungot> int-e: there's a parser that works in practice but never had the pro stuff. but who would want to do is allow fnord image transmission. the gba has a linux
01:35:42 <boily> oerjan: okay >_>'...
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01:36:49 <boily> `relcome Guest24483
01:36:54 <HackEgo> Guest24483: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:37:00 <boily> `relcome Guest3780
01:37:01 <HackEgo> Guest3780: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
01:37:42 <oerjan> boily: you know in perl () actually match in s expressions
01:38:33 <boily> no, I didn't know. I expected whatever char appeared after an s to be the one and only delimiter.
01:38:44 <boily> is that a perl idiosyncasy, or is it widespread?
01:38:54 <oerjan> that's true except for brackety things
01:39:05 <oerjan> i dunno if it has spread
01:39:12 <int-e> oh right ... s(...)(...)
01:39:18 <boily> oh well. I guess perl's well spread enough by itself.
01:39:20 <ais523> I think Perl and sed both even allow alphabetic characters as delimeters
01:39:24 <int-e> I thought it's a perl thing
01:39:28 <ais523> but this is normally considered a bad idea
01:39:51 <boily> parser combinators ftw!
01:39:51 <int-e> sed want s(foo(bar(
01:39:56 <ais523> `` perl -e '$_="test"; satamag; print'
01:40:14 <HackEgo> Substitution pattern not terminated at -e line 1.
01:40:45 <int-e> ` echo "foobar" | perl -pe 's(o)(oo)g'
01:40:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:40:47 <boily> `` perl -e '$_="test"; s\t\m\g; print'
01:40:48 <int-e> `` echo "foobar" | perl -pe 's(o)(oo)g'
01:42:15 <HackEgo> Unrecognized character \x81; marked by <-- HERE after sかtかm<-- HERE near column 21 at -e line 1.
01:42:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:42:24 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
01:42:39 <boily> @ask nooodl where are you?
01:43:13 <int-e> fungot: please explain the nooodl incident
01:43:13 <fungot> int-e: with my version, the systems aren't r6rs requires unicode, why do you need for binary distribution is a coin flipped ( because i wrote it.
01:43:19 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "$_="test";sかtかmか;print;": No such file or directory
01:44:08 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, "() actually match in s expressions" really confused me at first; I mean, what does that have to do with Perl?
01:44:42 <boily> `` perl -e '$_="か"; s/K/z/; print;'
01:44:56 <boily> meh. it unicodly works.
01:45:40 <oerjan> `` perl -e '$_="test"; s atamag; print'
01:46:22 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:46:28 <HackEgo> Unrecognized character \x81; marked by <-- HERE after かtかm<-- HERE near column 22 at -e line 1.
01:47:38 <int-e> Perl is old, it operates on bytes. And then there is some utf8 support in string operations.
01:48:07 <ais523> int-e: Perl operates on codepoints; however, it doesn't necessarily assume that they're Unicode codepoints
01:48:21 <ais523> a string in Perl is basically a string of 31-bit integers, stored in a compressed representation
01:48:28 <oerjan> int-e: i was pondering for half a minute how to say that better and then gave up
01:48:43 <ais523> actually Perl is one of the few languages which really supports Unicode well
01:48:57 <ais523> however, it doesn't necessarily know how to interpret its input
01:49:04 <ais523> and normally interprets it as bytes for backwards compatibility
01:49:13 <ais523> perl -e 'print "\x{123}"'
01:49:18 <ais523> `perl -e 'print "\x{123}"'
01:49:23 <ais523> `` perl -e 'print "\x{123}"'
01:49:25 <HackEgo> Wide character in print at -e line 1. \ ģ
01:49:43 <ais523> Perl's quite happy to have a codepoint 0x123 in a string
01:49:54 <Sgeo> Send laptop in to get fixed, or buy new laptop?
01:49:57 <ais523> but it doesn't know how to output it because by default, stdout is bytes
01:49:58 <Sgeo> Screen is dead
01:50:15 <ais523> `` perl -e 'binmode STDOUT, ":encoding(UTF-8)"; print "\x{123}"'
01:50:21 <int-e> Sgeo: any warranty?
01:50:29 <ais523> if you specify an encoding explicitly, everything is fine
01:50:30 <Sgeo> int-e: I almost certainly voided it
01:51:01 <Sgeo> Unless taking the latop completely apart does not void the warranty
01:51:14 <OrenWatson> Sgeo: eiter fix it yourself, use it as youtube for TV, andor buy new
01:51:27 <int-e> Sgeo: you probably voided it.
01:51:47 <Sgeo> Would the manufacturer still repair voided waranty if I pay money?
01:53:24 <OrenWatson> but I would just use it as desktop with external screen for now, and buy new laptop later
01:54:03 <Sgeo> There's no room near my couch for a monitor
01:54:11 <Sgeo> So I'm standing in a different area
01:54:14 <Sgeo> It's inconvenient
01:54:22 <Sgeo> Plus the resolution of this monitor is crap
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02:53:06 <shachaf> i would prefer whatevertheirnameis to leave me alone twhal
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03:00:33 <Sgeo> I could buy a better desk, and if that works out, consider building a desktop
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03:13:48 <oerjan> i guess building a better lap is out of the question.
03:21:59 <OrenWatson> oerjan: http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=lap+pillow not so.
03:23:34 <zzo38> Is there a better way to test .XI files than with OpenMPT?
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06:26:08 <Jafet> Should have been a redirect to iana.org
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07:09:27 <orin> Hmm. the computation of h(14,13) is taking unusually long
07:11:56 <orin> I think there is a bug, but i'm not sure where
07:15:02 <orin> no. wait all the answers are wrong.
07:19:05 <orin> screw this at least my memory mgmt code workd
07:22:55 <orin> http://www.paste.org/77910
07:29:53 <orin> C programs are littered with code deleting and copying various trees and linked lists. this code handles a general case of that
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12:43:27 <int-e> oho, less than a day...
12:44:11 <Taneb> Oh yeah, this conversation
12:45:05 <int-e> Of course they cheated and started from an existing train...
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14:07:32 <boily> Guest3780: hi! how are you enjoying these fine netsplits?
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14:15:39 * oerjan wonders if there is any language with words that start with bm
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14:22:10 <oerjan> trusty georgian seems to provide ქიმიური ბმა, meaning chemical bond, the latter word transcribing as "bma"
14:22:23 <boily> oh. georgian indeed.
14:22:47 <oerjan> your go-to language for advanced consonant clustering
14:23:20 <HackEgo> m: Wlcm t th ntrntnl hb fr strc prgrmmng lngg dsgn nd dplymnt! Fr mr nfrmtn, chck t r wk: <http://slngs.rg/>. (Fr th thr knd f strc, try #strc n rc.dl.nt.)
14:24:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eoe: not found
14:24:17 * oerjan tries russian but google doesn't give anything non-acronymy looking starting with бм
14:25:19 <int-e> Well my small russian dictionary doesn't have anything like that.
14:25:44 <int-e> (Nor do I recall ever having to pronounce such a word.)
14:26:55 <oerjan> it has днепропетровск but not the labial version
14:29:07 <int-e> Right. The Днепр is a river. Dnieper in english, isn't that nice...
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14:32:52 <int-e> Oh, this is nice. `дно' means `bottom', its plural is `донья'
14:33:51 <int-e> And from `ден' they derive `днём', `during daytime'.
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14:36:29 <oerjan> but wiktionary couldn't find that
14:37:34 <oerjan> oh should have done a proper search
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14:43:07 <int-e> Sigh. пей is both "drink!" and "sing!"
14:43:23 <int-e> sing to the bottom... well, no.
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14:45:58 <oerjan> now if it was also "women!" russians would have it easy
14:46:59 <oerjan> <int-e> oho, less than a day... <-- ah.
14:49:50 * int-e wonders whether oerjan deliberately misunderstood "drink!" to be a noun rather than an imperative verb form.
14:51:27 <oerjan> no, i deliberately avoided trying to turn "women" into a verb hth
14:57:49 <int-e> Taneb: спи! (bah, stupid irregular verbs)
14:58:12 <Taneb> Aww, it's 4 in the afternoon and a sunny day
14:58:35 <int-e> Ok, go outside then.
14:59:08 <int-e> (Just passing on advice I tend to get from my parents. You're welcome, no need to thank me.)
15:00:20 * int-e glimpses outside ... snow?! snow???!!!! WHY??!?!!!!?
15:00:54 <Taneb> Where the hell are you? It's May!
15:01:07 <int-e> Innsbruck. It's snowing, but thawing immediately.
15:01:27 <lambdabot> LOWI 061450Z 26010KT 190V290 4000 R08/P1500D R26/P1500N SHSN SCT003 SCT010 BKN015 02/M01 Q1024 WS R26 TEMPO SHSN
15:01:44 <oerjan> int-e: same here yesterday
15:02:07 <oerjan> i guess i'm further north, or something.
15:03:00 <Taneb> oerjan, you are certainly further north
15:03:10 <int-e> SHSN = snow showers. WS = wind shear
15:03:35 <Taneb> oerjan, aren't you in like one of the furthest north large cities in Europe?
15:05:53 <int-e> "R26", what do you mean, runway 26? There is only one runway there... (approachable from two directions, maybe that makes 2).
15:10:37 <oerjan> Taneb: i think it depends a lot on your cutoff for "large city".
15:11:43 <oerjan> murmansk is larger, and far more north
15:12:52 <Taneb> Anyway I am going to get some sleep
15:12:59 * oerjan hates that google maps removed the quick zoomout bar
15:15:32 <myname> fähigkeit: 2 mana - fügt 30 schade zu
15:15:44 <int-e> But yeah, the runway ends are marked 26 and 08. Funny.
15:16:01 <int-e> myname: zu schade.
15:17:21 <oerjan> also, i don't like that if you zoom out enough to see all of scandinavia and murmansk, all the city names disappear.
15:17:29 <int-e> (is there a direction encoded in the numbers... looks that way: "Runways are named by a number between 01 and 36, which is generally the magnetic azimuth of the runway's heading in decadegrees"
15:18:32 <oerjan> hm i guess they wouldn't want two runways in the same direction.
15:19:40 <int-e> They do. They get suffixes: L, M, R.
15:19:56 <int-e> (I'm reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway )
15:20:27 <int-e> (It gets really funny when there are more than 3 parallely runways)
15:20:51 <int-e> s/reall/really/; s/lely/lel/
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15:59:18 <lambdabot> EGLL 061550Z 02008KT 340V050 9999 FEW032 15/08 Q1032 TEMPO BKN014
15:59:32 <fizzie> I was told this place is cold and rainy.
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16:10:04 <izabera> let's create a really awful language called every_other_language
16:10:20 <izabera> so that you can say "every_other_language sucks"
16:10:43 <izabera> then someone shall create a language called "this_language" which is just a little bit better
16:10:55 <izabera> so that he can say "this_language is better than every_other_language"
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16:25:33 <lambdabot> CYQB 061600Z 23004KT 30SM BKN220 M03/M16 A3031 RMK CI7 SLP270
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18:15:33 <Inji> So I've never been here before.
18:15:37 <Inji> This is a huge esoteric chat
18:17:01 <HackEgo> Inji: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:17:26 <Inji> So it's not actual esotericism.
18:17:30 <Inji> It's a joke language.
18:17:52 <Taneb> myname, I wasn't in the mood
18:18:09 <Taneb> Inji, yeah, we're a programming channel
18:18:14 <Taneb> Stick around, if you want!
18:18:16 <Inji> I should've known.
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19:40:55 <orin> Isit just me, or is the fopen() function designed terribly?
19:41:53 <orin> I don't like the way it takes a string for its parameters
19:42:03 <int-e> I think it evolved rather than being designed
19:42:20 <int-e> it's more or less fit for its purpose but not elegant ;)
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19:45:01 <HackEgo> lliott: elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttp://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n rc.al.et.)
19:45:16 <int-e> (elliott may have been here before, I forgot. ;-) )
19:46:10 <orin> Is .rg or .et a real TLD?
19:46:50 <orin> .et I guess would be for aliens?
19:47:54 <coppro> elliott: to answer your question, yes I'm actually on the NHDT
19:47:58 <Taneb> .et is Ethiopia, .rg does not exist
19:48:16 <int-e> Oh there's an i there.
19:48:20 <elliott> coppro: why the 5 days wait :p
19:48:37 <coppro> elliott: I only remembered now
19:48:42 <coppro> (that you asked about it)
19:48:57 <elliott> coppro: you told me at the time it was part of an april fool's or something
19:49:09 <orin> .rg ... um, maybe a site for the greatness of Roentgenium?
19:49:32 <coppro> elliott: The April Fool's was that the announcement was real
19:49:41 <coppro> Taneb: NetHack DevTeam
19:49:52 <int-e> .rg is for role playing gamers who take RPGs seriously (they stopped playing)
19:50:32 <orin> ha! yes, indeed. ffvii.rg, masseffect.rg, etc
19:50:39 <elliott> coppro: did ais not get on the devteam because naming it NH4 pissed them off
19:50:46 <elliott> that's what I would like to believe
19:51:09 <coppro> elliott: I don't actually know the reason. But most likely because he expressed that he wasn't sure he'd want to join
19:51:41 <elliott> coppro: so does this mean I can literally rant to a nethack devteam member about how nethack fucking sucks now
19:54:12 <coppro> (and I'm serious, feedback is good. it won't all get fixed next release, but it's still good)
19:55:59 <Taneb> The only feedback I can give on Nethack is that I am not very good at it
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20:48:53 <zzo38> When Pokemon Pinball is loaded into Visual Boy Advance, Pikachu is being too quietly!
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21:44:05 <oren> what are you playing
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22:02:46 <elliott> coppro: my feedback could only be resolved by redesigning the entire game, sorry :p
22:07:54 <zzo38> Then make up a new game.
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22:08:55 <oerjan> Gregor: great idling there
22:11:41 <oerjan> <Taneb> Inji, yeah, we're a programming channel <-- if we'd managed to send all those people to a place where they'd stay, it would have been a huge channel by now.
22:12:02 <oerjan> sadly, something something critical mass.
22:12:21 <Taneb> I wonder if there's a channel somewhere out there that keeps getting people who want to be here
22:12:55 <olsner> but do they want to be there? really?
22:13:05 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
22:14:00 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘handle’ (imported from Control.Exception)
22:14:42 <oerjan> haskle would be the obvious norwegian borrowing from the english verb haskell
22:15:34 <olsner> ler deg haskle med ørjan?
22:18:17 <oerjan> the å isn't optional in norwegian, yet. although with the speed we're absorbing swedish constructions, ask again in a decade or two.
22:20:39 <oerjan> or maybe they're english constructions.
22:21:02 <olsner> not sure, I think the å (att) is probably not really optional in swedish
22:21:28 <oerjan> i found a google hit so may have misinterpreted.
22:23:23 <oerjan> do swedes say "jag har tänkt att [haskla]" or "jag har tänkt till att [haskla]"?
22:25:15 <oerjan> because the shift from the former to the latter in norwegian is one of the grating examples to this old fart
22:25:21 <olsner> the former, but it sounds quite formal still
22:26:02 <olsner> I'd probably say "jag tänkte haskla"
22:26:21 <oerjan> oh. again, the "å" is not optional.
22:26:58 <oerjan> very well. my obvious theory of the origin of this travesty has been proved wrong, then.
22:32:10 <oren> haskell is a verb?
22:32:30 <oerjan> otherwise, how could there be haskellers
22:33:00 <oren> As in "I haskelled a program"?
22:33:20 <oren> Or is it "I haskold a program"?
22:33:27 <Taneb> "We have haskelled a lot over the past few days"
22:33:31 <oren> (like tell, told)
22:33:38 <Taneb> I don't think Haskell takes an object
22:33:43 <Taneb> I mean, it's not Java
22:38:12 <coppro> elliott: just play crawl then
22:38:27 <elliott> coppro: the exact same applies to crawl actually
22:38:43 <coppro> elliott: play ADOM then :P
22:38:51 <elliott> admittedly I find it more fun, but
22:39:27 <Jafet> Go play a real video game, you nerd
22:40:18 <Taneb> elliott, play Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Red Rescue Team
22:41:04 <oren> そう言えば、どこかgoogleは日本語の動詞「ググる」と読んだ。たとえば、「その映画をググりました」。
22:41:11 <Jafet> or Chocobo Dungeon
22:41:32 <coppro> elliott: when you say 'the exact same', do you mean the same issues? or only that it needs a redesign
22:41:42 <Jafet> They should just make a game where you delve through a dungeon as a goat and crash into things
22:41:49 <coppro> elliott: also, a significant part of NetHack is likely to get redesigned over the next while, assuming the DT remains active.
22:41:53 <elliott> nethack and crawl have tons of issues but probably mostly not the same ones
22:41:54 <coppro> So I'm still interested in hearing :)
22:42:07 <elliott> changing nethack at all is scary
22:42:18 <elliott> how can you disturb the delicate balance of everything just slightly not at all working
22:42:20 <zzo38> Jafet: If you know how to and what deatils, you make up!
22:42:39 <Jafet> hackcode can't really be scarier than it already is
22:42:59 <coppro> elliott: some of the bigger issues like Gehennom are definitely on the radar screen
22:43:25 <zzo38> Make some for Famicom.
22:43:31 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to end up twisting my neck
22:43:46 <Sgeo> My monitor is to my right side, my laptop is straight in front of me
22:43:54 <elliott> I suspect my design philosophy coheres with exactly zero of the nethack devteam members, anyway. for what it's worth, sil, brogue and necrodancer are the roguelikes that come to mind as having the most admirable design, though the former two at least are certainly flawed (and the latter relies on the gimmick to be an effective game)
22:45:32 <zzo38> There are also "small roguelikes" such as KING and The Rougelike!
22:45:51 <coppro> elliott: I'm still interested in hearing
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22:45:57 <coppro> I can't speak for other team members
22:46:03 * Sgeo hasn't played either Crawl or Nethack in a while
22:46:11 <Sgeo> The latter for the dumbest possible reason
22:46:15 <elliott> tbh it has been so long since I played NH that i probably can't give much concrete
22:46:47 <elliott> "how about getting rid of all the grinding and instadeaths and really spoilery things"
22:47:12 <coppro> Gehennom is the big grind
22:47:15 <Sgeo> I have a reasonable game going on NAO, and for the past N years have been scared of messing it up.
22:47:18 <coppro> that's the only real problem area for that I think
22:47:27 <coppro> what do you mean by spoilery things?
22:47:58 <elliott> I mean like 80% of the game.
22:48:23 <elliott> (that's the only grind in nethack? have you ever seen an altar??)
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22:48:57 <Sgeo> Is Crawl grindy? iirc one of the philosophies is antigrind
22:49:28 <Jafet> In crawl you grind through adventurers
22:49:29 <elliott> it can be tedious in many ways but they're not generally "doing the exact same thing N times"
22:50:07 <elliott> coppro: okay, here's my one concrete suggestion: please, god, either automate or eliminate price-id
22:50:42 <coppro> the identification game in general needs attention
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