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01:17:28 <zzo38> Is it possible to define a general ordering of triples in RDF graphs (using the same definition of ordering regardless of which graph) even though there are blank nodes? (Blank nodes are like anonymous nodes; they don't have any ordering, and may be used multiple times.) Assume that if a blank node is wired in a particular way to the rest of the graph, it is indistinguishable for purpose of checking if a graph is the same or not.
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02:01:09 <oren> Could we not simply "pick the graph up" by a certain node?
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02:05:00 <zzo38> You may be able to simplify the problem by considering only the blank nodes, since everything else can already be ordered.
02:05:31 <oerjan> first, construct an ordering for graphs with numbered nodes. then, for each unnumbered graph, take the minimum numbered one.
02:05:44 <oerjan> absolutely no promises that this is tractable.
02:06:38 <zzo38> Note that these are directed graphs.
02:06:53 <oerjan> makes no difference...
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02:07:46 <oerjan> the fact i've never heard of RDF graphs before doesn't help
02:09:01 <zzo38> That's OK; its exact definition isn't relevant. However, it may be described in a simplified way as such: A set of triples; the first and third may be either a URI or blank node, the second must be a URI. (It is actually a bit more complicated than that, but for the purpose of this problem everything else is irrelevant)
02:09:48 <zzo38> There is no problem ordering the URIs since you can just use strcmp
02:11:00 <oerjan> what's the problem with just defining blank nodes to be smaller than all URIs, say?
02:11:01 <oren> Each blank node is connected to N predicates as a object
02:11:40 <oerjan> and then order the triples lexicographically
02:12:12 <oerjan> so basically, as haskell's (Maybe URI, Maybe URI, Maybe URI) type
02:12:27 <zzo38> No, that isn't right.
02:12:36 <oren> The second one is guaranteed to be a URI
02:13:00 <oerjan> oh. well (Maybe URI, URI, Maybe URI) then.
02:14:05 <oerjan> i'm sort of assuming that's too simple but you haven't defined the problem in such a way that i can see why it is disallowed.
02:14:14 <zzo38> Let's say you have a unlabeled directed graph; it can become a RDF graph by making each node as a blank node and then the second one (called a predicate) is always <about:blank> or whatever (note that <about:blank> is not a blank node!). So, Maybe URI doesn't do it.
02:16:09 <oerjan> zzo38: my problem is that i have no information about what an RDF graph is other than a set of triples.
02:16:35 <oren> It is a graph composed of two types of vertexes.
02:17:02 <oren> the A type is connected to three B type vertexes
02:17:46 <oren> (with three distinct labeled edges)
02:18:09 <oren> the B type vertexes are arbitrary URI's or just "blank"
02:19:04 <oren> In addition, the second edge from each A type vertex always connects to a B type vertex which is a URI
02:19:36 <zzo38> That is one way to describe it, although I can prefer this way: It is a directed graph where vertexes can be labeled or blank, and edges are always labeled. There may be more than one blank node, but none of them have labels; and some may be used more than once. That's why (Maybe URI) does not describe a vertex.
02:20:32 <oerjan> oh i see the problem is that blank nodes have identity but not order
02:21:22 <zzo38> Yes, that's the problem I was asking about!
02:23:14 <oerjan> but a URI can only be used in one node, right?
02:23:44 <zzo38> (Although there may be multiple connections to and from it)
02:25:45 <oren> Hmm... we can start by putting the blank nodes which have a direct link to a URI node first
02:26:10 <zzo38> Yes I thought that might do, although still don't quite know how to continue then
02:26:32 <oren> and then ordering them by greatest
02:26:57 <oren> URI they are connected to (then by predicate, then by second greatest, etc)
02:27:56 <oerjan> well ok it is obviously possible to do in an intractable way, by first ordering triples in all graphs where blank nodes have been numbered, ordering the graphs themselves, then taking the triple ordering from the minimum graph
02:28:45 <oerjan> which arises from a numbering of your blank nodes
02:29:43 <oren> So if _AAA is connected to www.foo.com and _BBB is connected to vvv.foo.com then _BBB comes first
02:31:05 <oren> After all blank nodes which are connected to a URI have been ordered, we can use said ordering to order the blank nodes connected to them, and so on
02:32:00 <oerjan> however two blank nodes may be connected to the same URIs...
02:32:18 <oren> Then order by the predicate by which they are connected
02:32:33 <oren> And after that, take the second highest uri
02:32:48 <oren> and so on like a "high-card" poker hand
02:32:53 <zzo38> The second element in the triple is called a predicate.
02:33:02 <zzo38> (The first is called a subject, and the third is called an object.)
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02:34:17 <oren> Unfortunately my idea fails in the case where all nodes are blank
02:34:31 <oerjan> hm unless there is some uniqueness property i haven't noticed/been told, this is probably impossible.
02:34:47 <zzo38> oren: Yes, that's another case you haven't considered
02:35:26 <oerjan> in fact, let's take two triples, with (B1, "url1", B1) and (B2, "url1", B2)
02:35:44 <zzo38> oerjan: In that specific case, it doesn't matter the order.
02:35:44 <oerjan> B1 and B2 are blank. there is absolutely no distinction between the riples.
02:36:06 <zzo38> Because exchanging B1 with B2 doesn't change it at all.
02:36:08 <oren> when does the order batter
02:37:38 <zzo38> (In other words, the graph "looks the same" from B1 as it does from B2.) But, if you have: (B1, "url1", B2) (B3, "url1", B4) (B3, "url1", B5) then B1 and B2 and B3 are distinct, although you can exchange B4 with B5 without changing it.
02:38:00 <oerjan> so the ordering is only unique up to isomorphisms of the graph
02:40:53 <oerjan> but your special case of an unlabeled directed graph becomes "can you order the edges of an unlabeled directed graph"
02:41:29 <zzo38> Yes, and I expect that a solution to that problem can easily be extended to work with any RDF graphs then.
02:42:05 <oerjan> i vaguely suspect this is at least as hard as graph isomorphism
02:42:45 <zzo38> Yes, I would think so too.
02:44:09 <zzo38> Just in case you are curious, the additional part of the definition of a RDF graph that I have not yet mentioned is that the object (the third part of the triple) can also be a "literal", which means a pair consisting of a URI and a string. (This is irrelevant to the problem I mentioned though; I simply mention it in case you need to know exactly what a "RDF graph" is for other purposes.)
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02:56:46 <oren> Suppose we start by getting each node two numbers, the number of outgoing and ingoing edges
02:57:26 <zzo38> I loaded "graph isomorphism" in Wikipedia now to try to learn a few other stuff, but still don't quite know
02:57:32 <zzo38> oren: OK, that's one start
02:58:16 <oren> Then within each set of nodes, each node's "poker hand" is the N,M of the nodes it is connected to
02:59:29 <oren> I'm thinking ofan iterative process where we keep reordering the nodes which are still undistinct...
03:00:23 <oren> until no change occurs.
03:04:28 <zzo38> I also thought of what I now learned is called "graph canonization" (actually I thought of the same name for it); so, if you can figure out the order of blank nodes then you can replace them with URIs <canon:1> <canon:2> <canon:3> and so on and then you can easily order the triples. (Of course this is a hypothetical "canon:" URI scheme)
03:05:12 <zzo38> I still don't know how to do this though, but making up such a canonical form would easily allow them to be ordered; but you can also do it the other way around, so that you can make up such a canonical form from the ordering is the other way.
03:06:36 <oerjan> zzo38: i think that's what i meant with the numbering?
03:07:49 <oren> So. take the example from above: B1,B2 B3,B4 B3,B5. The initial numbering would be B1-(1,0) B2,B4,B5-(0,1) B3-(2,0)
03:08:11 <oerjan> i think the numbering thing still works, it's just that if the graph has self-isomorphisms then the minimal graph can also be reached by all of those.
03:08:43 <oren> So the initial order is B2=B4=B5,B1,B3
03:10:08 <oren> Now B2 is connected to B1, and B4,B5 are connected to B3, and B1 outranks B3. Thus B2 outrank B4,B5.
03:10:31 <oren> The new ordering on step 2 is B2,B4=B5,B1,B3
03:11:15 <oren> B4 and B5 are still equal, so there is no change, and the algorithm teminates
03:11:47 <oren> (they are qual becuase theya re both only connected to B3)
03:11:48 <zzo38> Ah, OK I can see that now
03:17:07 <zzo38> However, you have to prove it!
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03:55:35 <zzo38> This RDF graph contains three blank nodes: http://zzo38computer.org/my_foaf.ttl The blank nodes are identified here as [], _:1, and _:2. (Each [] is a distinct blank node (although that isn't relevant here because there is only one); but each _: with the same name identifies the same blank node.) This graph contains many non-blank nodes too. Canonizing would require numbering each blank node. Note that using _:a _:b _:c in place of [] _:1 _:2
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04:04:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42317&oldid=42265 * SuperJedi224 * (+7684)
04:05:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42318&oldid=42317 * SuperJedi224 * (-2)
04:06:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42319&oldid=42318 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* An interpreter in Java */
04:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42320&oldid=42319 * SuperJedi224 * (-161) /* An interpreter in Java: */
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04:40:41 <zzo38> This is a (badly drawn) diagram of part of such a graph: http://zzo38computer.org/img_17/my_foaf.png In order that you can see how it works. The circles indicate the blank nodes; they will then need to be ordered.
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04:54:56 <zzo38> A diagram of the full graph (except for literals?) is at http://graves.cl/visualRDF/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fzzo38computer.org%2Fmy_foaf.ttl although it can be hard to read. This one also displays names for blank nodes (even though they don't really have names; names can be used in a representation for obvious uses though), and abbreviates some URIs that are commonly used in RDF.
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07:35:05 <mroman> I can't really take this "studying 70 min a day is optimal" study that serious.
07:35:23 <mroman> apparentely students who learn the longest are the worst students.
07:35:49 <mroman> which makes sense because the sooner you get it the less long you actually have to study.
07:36:20 <mroman> so it shouldn't be surprising that students who learn longer on average probably do that because they are not very good at the subject.
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08:00:56 <mroman> "Judge Allows Divorce Papers To Be Served Via Facebook" uhm...
08:01:07 <mroman> fungot: Do you have a Facebook account?
08:01:07 <fungot> mroman: gcc 3 doesn't know about. and either you get threatened with lawsuits and the like
08:01:35 <mroman> Good. gcc3 is probably a facebook profile stalker anyway.
08:08:41 <oren> The actual optimal studying amount is "all the time", but you should study more than one thing.
08:11:47 <Taneb> I should study breakfast
08:15:37 <oren> Indeed. Good pancakes and french toast require intensive study to perfect
08:17:23 <oren> (I often end up burning my pancakes)
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08:26:10 <oren> Holy crap, i didn't know there was kanji for sulfuric acid
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08:29:56 <oren> hey fungot, have you tried cooking pancakes with sulfuric acid?
08:29:57 <fungot> oren: about the wiki? :) ( i'm attracted to these types of problems), if fnord enough times, could mutate some input into a more optimal way?
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09:57:43 <fungot> mroman: or has a contradiction... non-imperative?) from the keyboard
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10:04:38 <oren> fungot, funorudo tte nani?
10:04:38 <fungot> oren: why didn't i think of that. gentoo also starts with s! 2. blahbot, dead, dead, is just conditional reading
10:15:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42321&oldid=42320 * SuperJedi224 * (+142) /* An interpreter in Java: */
10:16:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42322&oldid=42321 * SuperJedi224 * (+9)
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10:32:33 <oren> What if a "language" existed in which "programming" was done by pavlovian conditioning on small animals?
10:33:38 <oren> E.g. to do an "and" you condition them to push a button only when two lights are on.
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10:44:16 <Jafet> Related: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749
10:45:30 <oren> awesome. crab-based computing
10:46:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42323&oldid=42322 * SuperJedi224 * (+179) /* An interpreter in Java: */
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11:56:41 <Taneb> Help, someone (I know not who) made https://github.com/jimrustlesPhD/Taneb/blob/master/Taneb.erl
12:00:43 <Taneb> shachaf, I know not who that is
12:01:43 <shachaf> Taneb: perhaps you know who https://github.com/icydoge is?
12:01:54 <Taneb> Yes, I know that person
12:02:03 <Taneb> But they are almost certainly different people
12:02:16 <shachaf> https://erlangcentral.org/erlang-projects/details/15724 suggests some sort of connection
12:03:04 <Taneb> Only in that they both contributed to this git project
12:03:19 <Taneb> I know who everyone is but the author of that erlang
12:04:45 <Jafet> Is that Jim Rustles, PhD, or Jim Rustle's PhD?
12:04:54 <Taneb> Jafet, it is unclear
12:05:08 <Taneb> I don't think that "Jim Rustles" is the author's real name
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12:34:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42324&oldid=42323 * SuperJedi224 * (+95) /* An interpreter in Java: */
12:38:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42325&oldid=42324 * SuperJedi224 * (+25) /* An interpreter in Java: */
12:47:20 <mroman> At least it's multi-functional.
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13:04:53 <mroman> so... I can't visit other courses at my university.
13:05:05 <mroman> Well, I can visit them... but I'm not allowed to attend the final exams.
13:05:24 <mroman> which absolutely sucks.
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13:12:51 <Jafet> Well, exams don't work so well if you've seen them before.
13:13:15 <mroman> What are you talking about?
13:14:36 <Jafet> If you were to take the same course later, you would see the same exam again.
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13:16:40 <mroman> They write new exams each semester
13:16:44 <mroman> but that's not really the point.
13:17:10 <mroman> I thought since I'm still working at this university I could just attend some courses and get a piece of paper that states that I visited and passed them
13:17:50 <mroman> but they don't allow that.
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13:18:27 <mroman> Shouldn't be too hard for the docent to correct one exam more
13:19:17 <mroman> and the office to print some piece of paper and stamp it
13:19:45 <mroman> they have the tools for that anyway
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13:20:22 <mroman> every student can keep track of his grades/credits in the universities online tool and can print out a report and get it stamped
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18:09:22 <orin> mroman: The university my father works for (YorkU) doesn't allow him to attend a course in the manner you describe, but does allow *me* to do so... Maybe you should impersonate your own son?
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20:41:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42329&oldid=42327 * SuperJedi224 * (+4) /* An interpreter in Java: */
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21:56:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A programming language is a formal constructed language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42330&oldid=41915 * Rottytooth * (+38) added tag
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21:59:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42331&oldid=42329 * SuperJedi224 * (+157) /* An interpreter in Java: */
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22:59:12 <oerjan> darn i thought i'd finally made a portmanteau so impenetrable you didn't recognize it
22:59:59 <boily> no portmanteau too deep, no conflagration too outrageous.
23:01:34 <lambdabot> CYUL 072200Z 15003KT 30SM FEW240 05/M15 A3040 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP295
23:01:48 <boily> IT'S OVER ZERO THOUSANDS!
23:01:58 <lambdabot> ENVA 072250Z 28032KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 06/01 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 29034G52KT
23:02:16 <oerjan> eek canadians catching up
23:02:20 * boily is doing the dance of finally probably getting something higher than Norway soon!
23:02:45 * oerjan imagines that as very silly
23:02:59 <oerjan> involving handstand jumps
23:03:09 <boily> no handstands tonight. I ate soup.
23:03:24 <lambdabot> KSJC 072253Z 21011G19KT 10SM FEW028 SCT050 BKN090 15/03 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP139 T01500028 PNO
23:03:41 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
23:04:19 <shachaf> Norman Y. Mineta San Jose International Airport hth
23:06:01 <boily> tdh. you're there twh?
23:07:37 <shachaf> apparently we'll be playing kubb on sunday
23:07:50 <boily> that also helps hth
23:08:00 <lambdabot> Title: Kubb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:08:55 * boily stays away from a very safe distance
23:10:46 <boily> there's a suspicious pixel attached to my "y".
23:11:19 <HackEgo> [U+01B4 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH HOOK]
23:12:14 <oerjan> i think in this case it should be mapołes
23:12:37 <shachaf> always looks like there's some dirt on my screen
23:18:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42332&oldid=42262 * 194.168.93.97 * (+10) /* M */
23:21:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meq]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42333 * 194.168.93.97 * (+1881) Created page with "Meq was created by Richard Sparrow in April 2015. Hello World <pre> .==++>:+>+>[:++++++++>]:=+>===++>.===+++++++>:=+>:=++++>:++++++++>:rp>p>>p>p>p>p>p>p>p>p>p! </pre> Inst..."
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23:22:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meq]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42334&oldid=42333 * 194.168.93.97 * (+64)
23:25:48 <boily> I smell the unmistakeable fumet of a brainfuck derivative...
23:26:30 <AndoDaan_> Why derive from BF is you are just going to unFuck it?
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23:29:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheMeq * New user account
23:30:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meq]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42335&oldid=42334 * TheMeq * (+14)
23:30:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meq]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42336&oldid=42335 * TheMeq * (+4)
23:31:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Meq]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42337&oldid=42336 * TheMeq * (+0)
23:31:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TheMeq]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42338 * TheMeq * (+70) Created page with "Hi, I'm TheMeq I developed the [[Meq]] esoteric programming language!"
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23:33:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metar: not found
23:33:11 <lambdabot> CYYZ 072300Z 09007KT 15SM BKN090 BKN130 06/M08 A3031 RMK AC5AC2 SLP272
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23:36:43 <orin> I think they gave toronto the letters left over...
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23:45:01 <boily> orin: probably the name of some nearby beacon. that's why Dorval is YUL.
23:47:43 * oerjan read that as bacon and was a bit confused
23:49:42 * boily feeds fungot some proximal bacon
23:49:42 <fungot> boily: the example was just a test to see if freenode would get its security act together?
23:50:26 <oerjan> bacon, the next irc threat
23:52:41 <boily> orin: apparently, YTO is the area (probably similar to the GTA, need more details). then you have YTZ for Billy Bishop, YKZ for Buttonville and YYZ for Pearson.
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23:54:27 <boily> aha! http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question130856.html, with AyatollaH's reply giving credible details.
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23:56:48 <lambdabot> LLBG 072350Z VRB01KT CAVOK 15/06 Q1012 NOSIG
23:58:42 <boily> ORxx airports are in Okinawa.
23:59:06 <boily> uhm. ROxx, says I.