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00:52:35 <boily> slaying monsters and other nasty dæmons. along with elves, abominations, various tengues and giants.
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03:40:05 <MDude> I would guess downvoting would be allowed on the basis that it makes even less sense to add an exception to the system just to prevent users from doing something silly.
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03:53:38 <oren> The title is glitching up
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03:56:24 <oren> augh why isn't it showing as utf-8
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04:03:06 <oren> oh its midnight
04:04:26 <oren> since my laptop is now immobile, I'm accessing it remotely using the laptops in the other rooms instead of carryign it
04:11:29 <oren> on the plus side, this means i can run firefox on the local machine, and DF on my laptop, and not hang either one
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04:24:21 <oren> aaa fungot has quit?
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09:05:10 <int-e> early GG update today
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10:25:59 <int-e> Oh Canada, glorious and free!
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10:36:02 <mroman> today is vandalism day
10:39:01 <mroman> it's where all extreme socialist groups go on a vandalism streak
10:46:32 <boily> I wonder if there'll be manifs today...
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10:47:52 <oren> which socialist groups qualify for "extreme" though?
10:49:01 <oren> I guess empirically, whichever ones go on a vandalism streak today?
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11:03:33 <boily> boerjan matin! boren matin! bon mataneb!
11:12:59 <oren> an an an ... my left control key has stopped working
11:13:42 <b_jonas> unless it's a software problem
11:14:15 <oren> it is probably a problem with the kybard
11:15:22 * boily loves his mechanical keyboards
11:15:56 <boily> oren: have you ever heard of our Lord the Loud Click?
11:16:44 <oren> I should get a clicking keyboard, since they probably last longer
11:18:56 <b_jonas> or just get three non-clicking keyboards for the same price
11:19:14 <boily> oren: don't listen to the herectics.
11:19:20 <boily> b_jonas: flblblblblblbl :P
11:20:02 <mroman> are extreme by definition :D
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11:51:26 <mroman> It's raining like fnord.
12:05:46 <b_jonas> stupid websides, with their crazy css rules that just causes important text to crop or overlap so I have to fix the formatting locally
12:21:42 <int-e> you can just disable CSS
12:22:39 <b_jonas> that breaks this page even more horribly
12:22:51 <b_jonas> I disable some rules only, and sometimes modify numbers
12:29:45 <oren> I want a text-mode ncurses browser that supports only non-crazy CSS
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12:36:23 <oren> Really the problem is that HTML-CSS-JS is ostensibly both a document format and a programming language
12:36:55 <oren> but the requirements of each of those are very different
12:37:03 <b_jonas> as I see it, the problem is that people are trying to set the format too strictly on their webpages instead of the browser just figuring out the right sizes and fonts that work for me
12:37:28 <int-e> I think it's called "web design".
12:37:49 <b_jonas> web designers should be shipped on the B-ark so we have nicely designed web pages on the new planet
12:38:35 <oren> or maybe they should just serve images instead of web pages
12:39:14 <oren> why? then you don't need fonts
12:40:26 <mroman> images with click maps
12:40:40 <b_jonas> because I want to be served content, not formatting
12:40:47 <b_jonas> I can decide on the formatting myself, thank you
12:40:51 <b_jonas> and I can choose the right fonts that please me
12:40:52 <oren> and with the amount of Jquery sludge these web pages run on, it might even be smaller
12:41:00 <int-e> I want to copy&paste text into an IRC chat, for example.
12:44:01 <int-e> nicely put: "Everyone Wants You To Have Security, But Not from Them"
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12:53:13 <oerjan> hm i think xkcd what-if hasn't updated for two weeks
12:53:59 <oren> I've got it! #define btw del( #define lol ) #define del(x)
12:54:38 <oren> So I can comment like btw, this variable stores the user's preferred colors, lol
12:54:46 <Gregor> oerjan: Some assclown severed the fiber lines in a car crash.
12:54:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, it rarely updates
12:54:53 <Gregor> Expected fix before 8PM EDT
12:54:58 <FireFly> The worst is when sites serve text and then replace it with images client-side using javascript... for god knows what reason
12:55:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://what-if.xkcd.com/archive/ lists dates
12:55:38 <oerjan> b_jonas: i guess he's running out of disaster scenarios
12:55:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: and randall's removed the statement that it updates every Tuesday for long
12:56:50 <Melvar> < Gregor> oerjan: Some assclown severed the fiber lines in a car crash. – Wut. How?
12:56:59 <b_jonas> I'm more worried that tom7's radar didn't update yet. he's made a point of having posted at least one blog entry (even if it's a silly short one) every calendar month for FIFTEEN YEARS now!
12:57:33 <b_jonas> so the one for march is very due now unless he's using some riddiculous GMT-13:00 timezone as an excuse
12:57:38 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's _usually_ at least once every two weeks though.
12:57:49 <b_jonas> http://radar.spacebar.org/
12:58:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: "greetings from Tonga!" (or is that the wrong way around)
12:58:53 <FireFly> I think you mean the one from april
12:59:11 <oren> hmm the btw comment lol syntax is nestable
12:59:24 <b_jonas> oerjan: dunno, but the problem is, I think -13:00 timezone isn't even used much, and he's too late for -12:00 now. +13:00 might exist with dst I think.
12:59:47 <b_jonas> and -13:00 will be too late in about a minute or something
13:00:02 <b_jonas> and he could have posted something about how sigbovik went down
13:00:25 <b_jonas> yep, too late even with -13:00 now
13:01:32 <b_jonas> though I was thinking someone could make a medieval history theme park and declare he's using like GMT-3000000:00 timezone so it's still the middle ages there
13:02:51 <oerjan> hm indeed -13:00 isn't used, although +14:00 is
13:03:28 <b_jonas> sure, +14:00 is a great tourist attraction, they can make videos about earliest new year celebrations and stuff
13:04:03 <Gregor> <Melvar> < Gregor> oerjan: Some assclown severed the fiber lines in a car crash. – Wut. How? // Idonno, I'm just relaying an email
13:04:21 <b_jonas> if I had a pacific island vacation resort to the south from 30 deg latitude south, I'd use +14:00 timezone too
13:06:22 <b_jonas> latest new year is probably not such a good attraction
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13:14:32 <oren> http://hastebin.com/diyidehuqi.cs
13:25:13 <oren> int *s = malloc(sizeof(int)*100); btw that becomes lol let(s,newa(int,100));
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13:59:24 <FireFly> oren: you would love J's source code
14:01:39 <FireFly> Which uses things like #define DO(n,stm) {I i=0,_n=(n); for(;i<_n;i++){stm}}
14:02:23 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/j.h.html
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14:03:46 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/jtype.h.html has some crazy macros as well
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14:13:47 <oren> Hmm, the btw lol doesn't work. btw comment :) does work
14:14:54 <oren> as does btw comment ); and X)
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14:15:47 <oren> those are cool macros!
14:16:23 <FireFly> They're a bit too obscure for my taste
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14:17:18 <oren> well they're not general-purpose
14:20:11 <FireFly> b_jonas: aw, he cheated a bit apparently
14:21:48 <b_jonas> though he didn't post anything new. I've already seen the video.
14:23:36 <S0lll0s> what are some common things you would implement in a new language to show off?
14:24:04 <b_jonas> S0lll0s: check out Rosetta Code for ideas
14:24:07 <oren> depends on what sort of capabilities
14:24:31 <oerjan> S0lll0s: i'd point you to the wiki but it's down. oh hm...
14:24:34 <b_jonas> S0lll0s: hello world, list the first few hundred primes in decimal,
14:24:50 <b_jonas> no matter, http://rosettacode.org is up
14:26:06 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Popular_problem
14:26:48 <oerjan> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NL5oIRnSm1wJ:esolangs.org/wiki/Popular_problem+&cd=1&hl=no&ct=clnk&gl=no
14:37:36 <int-e> Catching up on old emails ... Lens has a function called "confusing"?! How appropriate...
14:38:25 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Kan.Rift.Rift (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
14:38:50 <int-e> Great type, too. (wtf is a Rift...)
14:39:09 <S0lll0s> thanks, was looking for smth like rosetta
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14:41:17 <int-e> Nor a Banana, I think we can go on like this for days.
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15:08:38 <edwardk> int-e: named rather deliberately =)
15:09:09 <edwardk> int-e: rift is a right kan lift, its a right kan extension in a 2-category where we've flipped the 2-morphisms
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15:09:50 <edwardk> int-e: alternately if we think of applicatives as monoids in the category of endofunctors with regards to day convolution you can think of it as 'curried' day convolution.
15:09:58 <edwardk> that latter sense is the useful part here
15:10:09 <edwardk> we use rift to re-associate (<*>)
15:10:18 <b_jonas> help! this channel is totally taken over by haskellers!
15:10:25 <b_jonas> did you all get thrown out of #haskell?
15:10:29 * int-e nods slowly, trying hard not to look stupid.
15:10:47 <edwardk> the Yoneda in there fuses together multiple lenses. the Rift in there fuses to the left the (<*>)'s exposing the (<$>)'s to be fused.
15:11:24 <edwardk> the net effect is that confusing (some.big.long.complicated.traversal) is faster than some.big.long.complicated.traversal) when the compiler can't inline the traversal
15:11:42 <edwardk> e.g. when it is recursive or something
15:11:55 <edwardk> int-e: that wall of text was mostly 'hey there is a deep motivation for this stuff' =)
15:12:26 <int-e> maybe you should just have said that "fusing" alludes to fusing :P
15:12:56 <edwardk> i'll be giving a couple of talks next month showcasing 'applicatives are monoids in the category of endofunctors, too' as part of how i design the api for discrimination.
15:13:20 <edwardk> we have fusing which abuses the fact that Yoneda lets us fuse fmaps
15:13:41 <edwardk> then fusing (_2._2) becomes one call to fmap for an unknown functor rather than two.
15:13:53 <edwardk> confusing is the upgraded version for traversals
15:14:01 <edwardk> named because it has the most confusing type we have in lens
15:14:11 <lambdabot> Functor f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
15:14:13 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Kan.Rift.Rift (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
15:15:02 <int-e> ... ah well let me fill in: <HackEgo> /etc/fstab: File not found.
15:27:43 <b_jonas> “Turns out the boolean NOT operator in PHP is !, not "not". I typed "not" and my syntax highlighter highlighted it, so I assumed it was the correct operator. Yeesh.”
15:31:29 <oren> syntax highlighting is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person who wrote the highlighter
15:33:33 <b_jonas> oren: actually, I think php is like perl in that NOT and ! are both operators
15:33:44 <b_jonas> but NOT has low precedence
15:34:43 <b_jonas> (maybe it's like python or ruby *ducks*)
15:35:17 <oren> but they do have &, |, ^, &&, ||, and, or, and xor. go figure
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15:36:12 <b_jonas> do you remember very old (like 1.2 or something) ruby which had the same situation as lua, with & and | being bitwise operators but ^ being power so they used xor as the bitwise xor operator?
15:37:04 <oren> well that's fine I think. because != is the logical xor operator
15:37:11 <b_jonas> lua uses ~ as bitwise xor these days
15:38:05 <oren> Of course, you can always just stipulate that true is all ones rather than being 1, then you can use only one set
15:38:33 <b_jonas> these days people have started to realize that less than, lessequal, equal, not equal, addition, subtraction, bitwise and, bitwise or, and bitwise xor are important operators, and they need short mnemonics, whereas division and power and integer division and modulus and stuff like that doesn't
15:38:48 <b_jonas> if only they also realized that min and max are just as important operations and also need short operator symbols
15:39:11 <oren> i guess that makes true=-1
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15:39:52 <b_jonas> I can certainly understand the apl viewpoint that true is 1
15:40:08 <b_jonas> both representations can be right depending on what you want
15:40:18 <b_jonas> there's also cases when true is minus infinity
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15:41:13 <b_jonas> oren: basically, booleans come up in a lot of places, and there's more than one way to represent them, and no one of the ways is always the best
15:41:56 <oren> Hmm... all ones as a float would be NAN
15:43:00 <oren> Hm.. I just did it in scrip7 and I got nan
15:45:37 <oren> well specifically -nan. I dunno how a NaN can specifically be negative but that is what printf outputted
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15:50:19 <oren> fff0000000000000 is -inf apparently
15:51:07 <int-e> 7ff0000000000000 is +inf
15:51:10 <FireFly> <b_jonas> lua uses ~ as bitwise xor these days ← Huh, I didn't know that. That's kinda cute, considering it uses ~= for inequality
15:51:16 <oren> Unless my compy's arch is screwed up
15:52:12 <b_jonas> I'll check now, but I totally thought all ones represents infinity, and all other values with maximum exponent represent nans, signaling or quiet depending on the 0.5 bit
15:52:18 <int-e> whereas NaN has no specific value; 7ff<anything but 0> and fff<anything but 0> should all be NaN values.
15:52:43 <oren> X=-1 X/0 XpX IxI . the output was -inf fff0000000000000
15:53:00 <b_jonas> I'll check the docs. if you're right, then thank you for fixing my misconception (also this is weird)
15:56:04 <b_jonas> infinity has all fraction bits zero
15:56:14 <b_jonas> so it's like 1.0 with the nan exponent
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15:57:54 <b_jonas> and for completeness, qnan is one with the 0.5 bit zero
15:58:29 <b_jonas> no wait I got it backwards
15:58:50 <b_jonas> qnan is one with the 0.5 bit one and the exponent set to the maximum
15:59:22 <b_jonas> snan is one with the 0.5 bit zero, bur not all the mantissa bits zero, and exponent is maximum
16:00:51 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's the usual qnan value, the one you get on x86 from inf-inf or 0/0 or similar stuff
16:03:04 <b_jonas> this means all ones is a qnan, but it's one you get from compare instructions, not from other floating instructions unless they already get an unusual nan as its input
16:03:27 <oren> That's the value I got. printf outputs -nan same as all other negative nans though
16:03:30 <b_jonas> thanks for putting me right
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17:42:11 <oren> reading books from 1917 is hindered by the author's expectation that the reader understands English, French, Latin and German
17:46:36 <oerjan> je ne sais nicht, was problema est
17:49:06 <b_jonas> oren: and Russian too maybe?
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18:48:29 <FreeFull> oren: Dracula is from 1897 and perfectly readable
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20:11:49 <zzo38> Can you do FM synthesis by calculating all of the harmonics?
20:21:26 <int-e> Ah, cloudatcost seems to have recovered from their car accident. :P
20:22:06 <int-e> (4 hours ago, when HackEgo came back? perhaps...)
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20:30:39 <FreeFull> zzo38: At that point it's additive synthesis
20:31:25 <FreeFull> There isn't an obvious way to go from FM to the frequency domain, I think
20:31:49 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but, with .XM and so on you can't do proper FM except with 1:1 keyscaling of the modulation envelope and you might not want this
20:32:41 <FreeFull> zzo38: Samples will sound good enough
20:32:56 <FreeFull> Although obviously it's less flexible
20:34:00 <zzo38> Yes I know it is less flexible; AmigaMML can already generate FM synthesis samples but that might not be quite good enough; the file format does not support FM though
20:34:02 <FreeFull> zzo38: Or you can go with additive synthesis, and get cool sounds that aren't FM
20:34:32 <FreeFull> zzo38: If you want FM synthesis support, you could use .s3m
20:34:59 <zzo38> Yes, but even with .s3m most playback software does not support FM
20:35:12 <zzo38> And hardly any program supports the Adlib Tracker II format
20:35:36 <FreeFull> Which is the point at which you create a .flac of your music
20:39:38 <zzo38> Some programs also do not support FLAC though; they might support only MOD/S3M/IT/XM, or possibly those formats plus Vorbis; still the Vorbis and FLAC formats are plain audio formats (with compression) and may be much larger file than ones telling the notes to play; also you cannot easily set loop points
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20:41:12 <zzo38> I know I can also do FM with VGM format, but still it isn't one of the supported formats either
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20:43:55 <zzo38> I also notice on Wikipedia about "group additive synthesis"
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21:30:38 <Taneb> Did I tell you people I wrote a fun program that makes mazes
21:30:46 <Taneb> here is some output: http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/baz.svg
21:31:54 <Taneb> I don't have the program on this computer but it uses a randomly weighted Kruskal's algorithm
21:32:10 <Melvar> Taneb: What does it make the svg with?
21:32:20 <Taneb> Melvar, the Haskell "diagrams" library
21:32:23 <zzo38> What is a randomly weighted Kruskal's algorithm?
21:32:30 <Taneb> http://projects.haskell.org/diagrams/
21:32:46 <Taneb> zzo38, Kruskal's algorithm finds the minimum spanning tree of a graph
21:33:01 <Taneb> This makes a graph with random weights then applies Kruskal's algorithm to get a maze out of it
21:34:19 <Melvar> Taneb: Ah. Neat. I’m not sure how to make a path like that with it, but neat.
21:34:32 <Melvar> Wait, is this a negative maze?
21:34:40 <Taneb> Melvar, the path is in black
21:34:48 <Taneb> Because I didn't put too much effort into the actual rendering
21:35:03 <Taneb> And this was easier
21:35:23 <Taneb> Melvar, I'll paste the code later
21:36:50 <Taneb> It's less than 100 lines of Haskell
21:37:16 <Taneb> Some of it's pretty ugly because Kruskal's algorithm works best with a union-find data structure which is easier to implement with mutability so I use ST for that
21:40:53 <int-e> Taneb: Fun approach, but I think using a union find data structure is simpler. (The idea is to track connected components of the graph and only add new edges between distinct components. this gives O(n \alpha(n)) maze generation with very little effort.
21:41:20 <Taneb> int-e, yes, that's what I said I was doing
21:41:31 <int-e> (n is the number of nodes, so w*h)
21:41:40 <Taneb> That is exactly what I am doing
21:42:53 <int-e> Hmm. I wouldn't call it Kruskal's algorithm... the added weights for modeling it seem to be too artificial.
21:44:06 <int-e> FWIW, I started replying after "It's less than 100 lines of Haskell", I didn't really take your followup message into account.
21:45:54 * Melvar finds headline: “Haskell creator Paul Hudak is dead”
21:47:53 <Melvar> <ω< The article itself trips over its own feet trying to explain what the hell Haskell is in one paragraph without knowing anything about it.
21:49:19 <int-e> Melvar: I believe the headline isn't specific enough to identify the article.
21:50:31 <Melvar> int-e: http://www.heise.de/-2631171
21:52:19 <FireFly> "Mehr zum Thema Python" well not quite
21:55:35 <int-e> Let me give that a try: "Haskell was created near the end of the 1980s as a pure, functional programming language, predominantly for scientific purposes. A distinguishing feature of functional programming languages is that functions applied to the same arguments always return the same value regardless of how often they are called, and do not influence the state of a program. In addition, Haskell...
21:55:41 <int-e> ...is based on the concept of monads and doesn't distinguish between variables and constants."
21:57:02 <int-e> "The logo of the language, a lambda, originates in the lambda calculus that underlies [Haskell], which provides a sort of semantics for certain calculations."
21:57:11 <Taneb> int-e, the Wikipedia article on maze generation calls it Kruskal's algorithm
21:57:18 <Taneb> And it certainly bears similarities
21:57:40 <int-e> Taneb: Ah. Yes, there are similarities, but they still seem artificial to me.
21:58:03 <int-e> Taneb: Anyway, perhaps it's just that I didn't think of this myself. :P
21:58:23 <int-e> s/of this/of this connection/
21:58:58 <int-e> Melvar: I'm done... just translating for our non-(native German speakers) :P
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22:09:36 <int-e> Hmm, where have I heard this, I guess it was the Security Nightmares talk at the last C3C. "Do you know this effect, when you read a news article in your area of expertise, and you realize that the article is completely wrong? And then you read the next article and believe everything it says..."
22:12:45 <shachaf> It's an old thing. I first heard it named after Gell-Mann.
22:13:05 <shachaf> I most recently heard it in a talk by Daniel Bernstein. Maybe that's the one you're thinking of.
22:14:07 <int-e> Nah, I'm pretty sure I got my source correct (it was in German, starting with "Kennt ihr das...")... that said, thanks for the references, especially the first one.
22:14:12 <shachaf> I think it was that "death of optimizing compilers" talk.
22:14:34 <int-e> I have not seen that talk; I've only seen the slides. So that's definitely not it.
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22:26:42 <zzo38> I found equations for "DSF synthesis"; there is a simple equation for the non-bandlimited form but the "a cos theta" term in the denominator seems to make it difficult.
22:26:49 <zzo38> http://www.csounds.com/journal/issue11/distortionSynthesis.html
22:32:58 <scoofy> a.k.a. discrete summation formula
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22:46:32 * pikhq should clean up and AV mod his Famicom.
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23:50:28 <zzo38> Now I added #CHDIR #TUNING #WAVE-SIZE commands into AmigaMML (not released yet).
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23:52:39 <zzo38> There are still no command-line switches (it is likely it won't ever need any).