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03:20:32 <zzo38> They won't let me to change the cheque number or to digitally sign the cheque!
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03:24:26 <quintopia> yeah banks are kinda set in their ways
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04:07:12 <zzo38> I got just intonation to work in AmigaMML now
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06:34:52 <quintopia> zzo38: can you use equal temperament and just intonation in the same song?
06:35:23 <zzo38> Yes, although I am not sure why you should
06:37:20 <quintopia> zzo38: so you could track Jonathan Harvey's "Tombeau de Messiaen" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn0Jwrnv07M
06:40:34 <zzo38> O, OK, if you want to
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06:42:58 <shachaf> FireFly: That version of Ievan Polkka has drums in it. :-(
06:43:03 <shachaf> The scow of musical instruments.
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07:48:20 <zzo38> You can look at this https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml if you wish to add any issues/bug-report/feature-suggestion/question/complaint of AmigaMML, including to make the FAQ section in case it help, or make up the list of comparing of different programs that can make .MOD/.XM musics and what feature and differences it has
07:51:36 <zzo38> The formula given for non-bandlimited DSF doesn't seems working if a=0, and I don't know about a<0
07:56:39 <zzo38> OpenMPT can also do just intonation (even in the same song as equal temperament), but only in .MPTM format, not in .XM format. (OpenMPT will still load just intonation files created using AmigaMML and play them back though.)
08:00:24 <zzo38> I suppose one way to do FM without the inherent 1:1 keyscaling is to figure out which notes are used and then generate the sample for each note with antikeyscaling applied in order to cancel it out.
08:04:46 <zzo38> You might need a lot of samples to implement that though if a lot of range is used
08:10:06 <zzo38> The Csound code is working if a=0 but the formula given above isn't; it looks like a formula above must be wrong then
08:11:16 <FreeFull> shachaf: I don't see how drums belong in ievan polkka
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08:49:05 <shachaf> what do you think of this Fazer Puikula Täysjyväruis thing i have here
08:49:13 <shachaf> is there a generic non-brand name for that sort of thing
09:06:59 <Taneb> @tell Melvar My maze generator code: http://lpaste.net/131886
09:09:48 <Taneb> I seem to have got distracted while writing the title
09:11:12 <lambdabot> Taneb said 4m 12s ago: My maze generator code: http://lpaste.net/131886
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09:35:22 <Taneb> Melvar, my implementation of union is incorrect, I just realised
09:35:37 <Taneb> Doesn't affect the result but the running time might be a little slower
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09:41:38 <int-e> Hmm, cloudatcost has a new scam^Wbusiness idea? "CloudPRO", hmmm.
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09:56:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42778&oldid=41882 * 211.208.65.26 * (+77)
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10:11:19 <oren> Is there such thing as a semivisual editor yet?
10:12:44 <oren> Basically it would be, like ed, execpt when in i,a,or c, you can use up to go to previous line and edit it
10:16:25 <int-e> vi, if vim is too much for you
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10:17:08 <oerjan> i don't think vi supports the second feature hth
10:17:08 <b_jonas> oren: do all those old editors for BASIC and APL count where you edit the program with line-oriented commands (modify line, list line, delete line) but you can edit a line in the screen buffer after you listed it as an easy way to modify that line?
10:17:19 <int-e> ed was extended to ex, and "ex was eventually given a screen oriented visual interface (adding to its command line oriented operation), thereby becoming the vi text editor."
10:17:37 <int-e> oren: really, vi is the correct answer, historically speaking.
10:17:38 <oren> b_jonas: that's exactly what I wanted to describe
10:18:45 <b_jonas> oren: it's not clear. the alternative would be something like a line-oriented editor where you enter lines with readline, and when you list lines, they get into the readline command buffer so you can retrieve them
10:18:53 <b_jonas> that's a quite different mode of operation
10:20:19 <oren> Well, like you said, after etiher listing lines with p, or entering lines with i, i would want to be able to press up to go up on the screen and edit the listed lines
10:20:49 <b_jonas> oren: sure, but the two are quite different
10:20:54 <int-e> oren: or maybe ex. "The open command displays one line at a time on any terminal, while visual works on CRT terminals with random positioning cursors [...]"
10:20:57 <b_jonas> either allows you to edit lines you list, but in a different way
10:21:23 <int-e> but I've never used ex, I don't know whether you can easily go back to the previous line.
10:21:58 <int-e> source of that last quote: http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ex.html (the other one was from wikipedia)
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10:28:13 <b_jonas> Is there an esolang that implements "improved mutexes" which are improved and parallelized because more than one thread can lock them simultanously?
10:28:32 <Vorpal> My RPi crashed due to nfsd causing an oops it appears
10:28:34 <Vorpal> There is that and a bunch of null bytes in my /var/log/messages on the RPi
10:28:48 <b_jonas> Vorpal: no, a semaphore can be unlocked multiple times
10:29:06 <Vorpal> b_jonas, okay, then what on earth is this sync primitive you are talking about?
10:29:08 <b_jonas> this could be locked multiple times and is lockless so it never blocks if you attempt to lock it
10:33:36 <Vorpal> b_jonas, who came up with that idea?
10:34:13 <b_jonas> dunno, I haven't heared it from anyone else
10:34:30 <b_jonas> I was thinking about it for file locks
10:34:47 <b_jonas> ok, maybe some network file systems already implement that for file locking
10:34:57 <oerjan> or possibly a commaphore
10:35:23 <b_jonas> oren: yes, commutex is a good name
10:37:50 <Vorpal> b_jonas, so what is the actual use of it?
10:41:20 <Vorpal> By the way, the RPi 2 is so much faster... Aptitude is actually usable on it for example
10:45:24 <oren> aptitude with the ncurses, or the X interface?
10:51:47 <Vorpal> oren, ncurses, didn't even know it had an X interface
10:51:54 <Vorpal> And I run my RPi as a headless server
10:52:05 <Vorpal> How do you get aptitude to go X?
10:58:00 <int-e> @check \f -> f True == False
10:58:01 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 4 tests):
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11:07:01 <oren> I don't remeber, it's been a while... I usually install stuff by apt-get
11:10:33 <Vorpal> oren, sure you aren't thinking of synaptic or similar?
11:11:50 <oren> Hmm... googling around has informed me that I am thinking of synaptic
11:13:17 <oren> but right now I'm using puppy linux
11:16:19 <oren> I like the way it starts up so fast
11:19:19 <oren> it starts up in less than a second to desktop
11:21:01 <oren> On the other hand, it doesn't have a login screen and your username is root
11:21:27 <oren> So basically no protection whatsoever
11:22:42 <oren> better be careful with those rm commands...
11:52:02 <int-e> @check (\a -> a :: Bool) .||. (\b -> b :: Bool) -- huh.
11:52:03 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
11:52:07 <int-e> @check (\a -> a :: Bool) .||. (\b -> b :: Bool)
11:52:09 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable, Falsifiable (after 3 tests):
11:56:26 <Vorpal> oren, is that on an SSD?
11:56:37 <Vorpal> Also yeah I wouldn't run desktop as root
11:57:19 <Vorpal> In fact I'm paranoid enough to spend a significant amount of time on apparmor profiles for stuff like the web browser
12:47:32 <oren> Yeah it's on a SD card
12:49:52 <oren> "precise puppy"
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12:53:31 <oren> Also I like screen -DRR
12:54:48 <oren> what happens if I ssh to myself through screen and then run screen -DRR
12:55:20 <oren> it will disconnect me in order to connect me
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13:05:04 <nvd> Wow, I feel professional
13:13:35 <oren> what's that like?
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13:20:21 <oren> Hmm... youtube actually works on Seamonkey, but it's making the latency of my ssh connection terrible
13:21:54 <oren> Why can't I tunnel smooth video through ssh -CX?
13:23:24 <oren> It doesn't make any sense, how can it take 2 seconds to go to the other room and back!?!?!?
13:23:49 <Melvar> Probably because it’s being sent uncompressed?
13:23:51 <int-e> Uhm, it'll take a ton of bandwidth, and -C doesn't help your latency at all.
13:23:51 <nvd> It's going via Leeds
13:24:59 <oren> Hmm... maybe it would be better if we got a better router
13:25:23 <int-e> It's a terrible idea. Better to set up a proxy/VPN (does sshuttle work for youtube? I don't know...)
13:25:46 <int-e> And decode the videos locally.
13:27:43 <oren> So essentially, I either have to figre out how to run firefox on puppy linux, or cope with the limitations of seamonkey (surprisingly more usable than i remeber).
13:28:52 <oren> Running firefox on the other laptop (the one that is decapitated) through ssh -CX just does. not. work.
13:28:59 <int-e> Just for fun, you could try a VNC client. I suspect that will perform awfully, but better than firefox over -X.
13:30:05 <oren> is it correct to describe a computer with a broken display connector as "decapitated"?
13:33:33 <int-e> It's strange, especially when the "head" is still attached.
13:33:49 <oren> nearly headless nick
13:34:06 <int-e> otoh it's quite clear what you mean *shrugs*
13:35:47 <oren> well DF does pretty well over sshCX
13:38:13 <oren> not sure why, actually...
13:38:26 <int-e> The problem with -X is that modern GUI toolkits all go the render-to-bitmap-then-copy-to-screen route. They use XShm or some OpenGL textures if available, but they are not designed to perform well over the network.
13:40:02 <oren> Ah, so because DF doesn't use a toolkit, it doesn't have a problem?
13:40:52 <int-e> If done right, Dwarf fortress will just upload the pictures to the X11 server once, as a pixmap, and then just instruct the X11 server to copy it to various places.
13:41:01 <int-e> Not sure if SDL supports that.
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14:02:33 <int-e> @check \x y z t -> t ==> z ==> y ==> x ==> 0 == 0
14:02:35 <lambdabot> *** Gave up! Passed only 52 tests.
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16:03:01 <lambdabot> The operator ‘==>’ [infixr 0] of a section
16:03:01 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand, namely ‘$’ [infixr 0] i...
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16:23:00 <oren> my current theory as to how DF can have ok framerate and latency is that the tileset I chose produces compressible images
16:24:31 <oren> in particular, it produces a very limited palette and lots of long stretches of the same color
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18:21:32 <oerjan> you know you're not well enough to leave the house yet when you nearly faint on leaving the shower
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18:41:28 <zzo38> Do you know if any C compiler optimizes stuff like this? x+=strlen(x);
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18:42:53 <oerjan> you mean to while(*x)x++; ?
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18:44:41 <zzo38> Or also optimize other things that involve use of strlen and other string operations
18:45:57 <Melvar> I suppose the strlen might actually be faster, but I don’t know much about these details.
18:46:26 <oren> Almost ceratainly they do but gcc often ends up using the intel SIMD instructions for those (beacuse Ive seen them in the .s files)
18:47:11 <zzo38> Melvar: Maybe; I don't know, hopefully the optimizer though should know that; it is specific to the computer and to circumstances, which is one reason why you should need a automatic optimizer!
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18:48:37 <zzo38> If the optimizer knows what strlen means it should be able to recognize that both codes are the same meaning
18:50:09 <oerjan> logically strlen may do while(*x)x++ internally anyway, in which case it would just be a little expression optimization afterward
18:50:40 <zzo38> Yes, that's what I thought which is that strlen can probably be inlined and then it would figure out.
18:52:18 * oerjan isn't sure this sore throat and palate thing he's having is entirely compatible with this spicy pizza
18:53:02 <oerjan> it's better than a few days ago, anyway.
18:54:25 <shachaf> oerjan: is norwegian pizza as good as i hear it is
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18:56:30 <oren> `whoops thats not what I meant. I meant that the existence of such instructions as MOVSB and SCASB means that common string operations are essentially already implemented in microcode
18:56:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whoops: not found
18:57:46 <int-e> `complain there is no "whoops" command
18:57:47 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:58:02 <zzo38> Can't you add such a command by yourself?
18:58:02 <pikhq> At least movsb in particular is certainly implemented in microcode with reasonable performance...
18:58:30 <int-e> zzo38: I could, but then I wouldn't be able to exercise the brilliant 'complain' command.
18:58:44 <oerjan> zzo38: ssh i'm trying to inspire people here
18:58:51 <pikhq> IIRC musl's testing found the best performance for memcpy was just straight-up rep movsl.
18:59:07 <int-e> (It's very efficiently implemented.)
19:00:02 <oren> that's what I would expect yes. Essentially, C strings are used a lot, so to compensate for their retartedness the processors have special instructions
19:00:05 <fizzie> There's some interesting stuff about the processor optimisation of rep movs in the Intel optimisation manual.
19:00:34 <fizzie> memcpy is not really about C strings.
19:01:05 <pikhq> Yeah, memcpy is only "about C strings" in that it's in string.h
19:01:25 <pikhq> Which is... kinda silly TBH. :)
19:01:52 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal It's from a hill near the Google campus in Mountain View, CA.
19:03:04 <HackEgo> [U+25A1 WHITE SQUARE] [U+25EF LARGE CIRCLE]
19:03:56 <oerjan> after all these years of avoiding being caught by dinosaur comics, i'm now reading dmm's fanfic version instead...
19:04:15 <oren> Hmm? I could have sworn there were instructions optimized for asciz strings...
19:04:48 <zzo38> It can be used to copy any memory by telling how many bytes, and strcpy is copy until the null terminator and therefore is use with any null-terminated data (such null-terminated data does not necessarily have to be an ASCII string, although usually it is).
19:05:18 <pikhq> oren: There are instructions for the purpose but IIRC they are not commonly used.
19:06:04 <pikhq> Though a bit more of a pain, you can deal with them somewhat efficiently using word-at-a-time fetches.
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19:07:03 <zzo38> There is no standard memdup either, but SQLite provides a function that is like sprintf but it also allocates the memory to hold the output string.
19:07:21 <pikhq> zzo38: So does glibc, it's asprintf.
19:07:31 <pikhq> It's also quite trivial to implement in terms of snprintf.
19:08:05 <zzo38> You still might run the program on a computer without glibc though
19:08:55 <zzo38> And, the "%llu" code doesn't work properly on Windows it seems like but SQLite's mprintf and snprintf functions do implement it correctly.
19:09:07 <oren> Only problem is lack of corresponding ascanf, taking pointers-to-pointers
19:09:15 <oerjan> finding a computer with SQLite but not glibc is left as an exercise for the reader.
19:09:24 <fizzie> shachaf: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150319-mtv.jpg
19:09:59 <zzo38> (SQLite has its own printf implementation, as well as its own malloc/realloc/free implementations, and its own random number generator based on ARCFOUR)
19:10:10 <int-e> @check (error "1" :: Bool) .||. True .||. (error "2" :: Bool)
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19:10:36 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, on Windows it uses msvcrt instead I think, it doesn't have glibc?
19:10:45 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
19:10:46 <nvd> I quite like the nick nvd
19:10:50 <nvd> Might stick with it for a while
19:10:52 <oren> So yeah based on looking through my textbook, the instructions I was actually thinking of was something like REPNZ MOVSB or something
19:11:07 <fizzie> oerjan: I think my phone is like that.
19:12:10 <pikhq> Yep, that's an opcode.
19:12:17 <HackEgo> bash: locate: command not found
19:12:44 <oerjan> `run (cat bin/emptylist; echo 'we forgot to implement this command') >bin/whoops; chmod +x bin/whoops
19:12:49 <pikhq> zzo38: MSVC should not be considered a C runtime library but rather a Windows-C runtime library.
19:12:51 <int-e> anyway: grep '^[aeiou]*n[aeiou]*v[aeiou]*d[aeiou]*$' /usr/share/dict/words ===> envied, invade, navaid, nevoid -- need to look up the latter two.
19:12:54 <HackEgo> whoops now what: we forgot to implement this command
19:12:59 <zzo38> As well as `` you can also use ``` if you want it to force to fix the locale setting
19:13:06 <pikhq> The degree to which it fails to implement a reasonable environment is rather spectacular.
19:13:23 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I suppose, it is rather the "Windows-C runtime library"
19:13:38 <pikhq> (they have an _snprintf not snprintf and _snprintf *doesn't even work right*. Ugh!)
19:13:47 <oren> nevoid : "in the shape of a nevus"?
19:13:51 <zzo38> But together with MinGW headers I have gotten it to work
19:13:54 <pikhq> (it's especially "nice" that _snprintf does not guarantee null termination of strings.)
19:14:12 <zzo38> MinGW can use snprintf
19:14:42 <pikhq> MinGW has replacements for a smattering of MSVC functions.
19:14:58 <zzo38> Yes, in order to improve its working.
19:15:25 <int-e> NAVAID is for air navigators, nevoid is apparently "similar to nevi", and a nevus is "any congenital anomaly of the skin, including moles and various types of birthmarks." ... well I didn't need to know that.
19:15:27 <zzo38> But still sometimes I need #ifdef _WIN32 mostly just to include code to change stdin/stdout to binary mode for programs that require it.
19:15:46 <pikhq> And to support Unicode at all. :)
19:16:22 <zzo38> If I need Unicode (which is rare) I can put my own implementation of the parts that I need
19:16:45 <pikhq> If MS was sane you'd just use libc and it'd just work.
19:17:43 <zzo38> Yes, but, it doesn't just work; MinGW works though.
19:21:09 <oerjan> <int-e> @check (error "1" :: Bool) .||. True .||. (error "2" :: Bool) <-- huh
19:21:41 <zzo38> And you should rarely need Unicode support anyways.
19:22:24 <zzo38> One program I wrote that does do something with Unicode is VGMCK, which includes a function to convert UTF-8 into UTF-16; no other Unicode-related stuff is needed in such a program.
19:22:52 <oerjan> zzo38: fizzie: i think somehow i read glibc and thought C library
19:24:06 <zzo38> (It implements CESU-8 too, because if you write a converter UTF-8 to UTF-16 it will automatically also work CESU-8 too.)
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20:03:07 <oren> *test* _test_ /test/
20:04:41 <oerjan> bolded underlined normal, here
20:05:26 <oren> I thought /test/ would be italic, but i guess i was wrong
20:08:18 <oerjan> or well, actually the bold is blue, but that's a putty setting
20:09:30 <nortti> if I were to do a brainfuck implementation with disk IO, which API should I use?
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20:12:04 <oren> do you mean the API from the implementation to the disk, or the api the BF program is presened with?
20:13:25 <oerjan> nortti: the ESOAPI, of course!
20:14:27 <oerjan> "EsoAPI may be superseded by PESOIX." ok maybe not
20:14:56 <oerjan> choose your bitrotten api wisely
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