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00:09:14 <oren> Aww the esperanto guy left right away?
00:09:54 <oren> He was using puppy linux too
00:12:39 <oren> Also I could link him to this http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/
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00:51:55 * Sgeo is somewhat interested in Esperanto
00:52:53 <FireFly> For some reason I tried to parse char a[(x)&65535] as a typecast and unary & for a long time and just couldn't make sense of it
00:53:47 <lifthrasiir> sure, (t)+42 is an additive expression when t is a variable and an unary expression followed by casting when t is a type.
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00:56:14 <lifthrasiir> variable: I was double-checking my words before realizing the fun part. well done.
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03:58:04 <HackEgo> olist 988: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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04:22:28 <Sgeo> I think my joke fell flat
04:22:45 <Sgeo> Although even I had a lot of difficuly encoding it, I think no one is really willing to decode it
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04:26:12 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/37j742/i_think_cesu8_is_a_0xed_0xa0_0xbd_0xed_0xb2_0xa9/
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04:27:34 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: poop? (wild guess, didn't try to decode that)
04:27:57 <Sgeo> Well, "PILE OF POO" emoji
04:28:39 <Sgeo> Or at least it should be. I pulled some cesu8-rs crate and installed nightly Rust to encode that
04:28:54 <Sgeo> There is a lack of intentional CESU-8 encoders, for all that it's done unintentionally
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04:47:36 <int-e> @tell Lyka could you please stop changing your nick all the time?
04:48:32 <int-e> Now how do I unlearn about CESU-8, that's horrible.
04:53:08 <int-e> @unlambda ````s``sssk```ssk`s``skk.f
05:17:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xavo * New user account
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05:23:48 <Sgeo> int-e, the knowledge is useful for when (not if) you encounter it in the wild
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05:24:30 <Sgeo> Lyka|Away, the suggestion I think is to get rid of that script entirely, and use IRC's away mechanism
05:24:41 <Sgeo> script/setting/etc
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05:34:56 <FireFly> It's almost as bad as JS using UCS-2
05:35:57 <zzo38> Even my own CESU-8 encoder is not an intentional CESU-8 encoder; it is a side-effect!
05:36:45 <zzo38> (If you try tell it to convert your test to UTF-16 and then treat it as RAW-16 and convert to UTF-8, then you get CESU-8.)
05:37:45 <zzo38> (And you can convert out of CESU-8 just by telling it to convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then back again. It has no CESU-8 stuff included, but supports it as a side-effect)
05:38:57 <zzo38> That is how you can support CESU-8 in a program that doesn't support CESU-8.
05:39:03 <Sgeo> In theory a correct UTF-8 -> UTF-16 should reject it
05:39:32 <Sgeo> FireFly, things using UCS-2 is exactly how you end up with CESU-8
05:40:19 <zzo38> One that checks for errors should reject it for sure yes
05:41:02 <FireFly> In JS, charAt and charCodeAt actually index by 16-bit words, so you get each surrogate in a surrogate pair separately
05:41:14 <zzo38> But my program deliberately does not check for this error; actually when reading UTF-8 it will read codepoints up to 36-bits in total; when trying to convert whatever input format it reads into UTF-16 though, it will reject codepoints above 0x10FFFF.
05:41:26 <FireFly> I hear ES6 is fixing that by adding new functions for proper indexing
05:41:33 <Sgeo> FireFly, same in Java, chars are 16-bit units
05:41:39 <zzo38> (It also results in an error if trying to convert a codepoint with more than 36-bits into UTF-8 format.)
05:41:51 <Sgeo> I think that's why the JVM internally uses a CESU-8-like thing called "modified UTF-8"
05:42:20 <Sgeo> It's CESU-8 plus NUL is 0xC0 0x80 (what the two-byte encoding would be if UTF-8 allowed overlong encodings) instead of 0x00
05:42:25 <FireFly> Yeah, but Java at least were quick to add stuff to Character for dealing with conversion, IIRC
05:42:26 <zzo38> "Modified UTF-8" means that overlong encoding is used for a null character
05:42:59 <zzo38> Sometimes it is also CESU-8 too, sometimes not. My own encoder will support reading either way, but when writing you have to tell whether or not to overlong encode a null character.
05:43:00 <FireFly> Oh, is that to allow it to be a null-terminated string, for easier C interaction?
05:43:08 <FireFly> That's not a terrible idea
05:43:09 <zzo38> FireFly: Probably yes
05:43:19 <Sgeo> I guess so that Java can continue exposing a 16-bit API while not having to do too much conversions between it and the internal UTF-8 like format
05:44:00 <zzo38> Still, I think even if you do want that it is a better idea to do the overlong null character encoding without encoding the surrogates too.
05:47:36 <zzo38> (However, I have implemented no function for CESU-8.)
05:47:57 <zzo38> I think this program was once installed on HackEgo; I do not know if it is still there or not.
05:50:37 <zzo38> It still is, it looks like.
05:54:11 <zzo38> '8' = RAW-8, 'w' = RAW-16-LE, 'W' = RAW-16-BE, 'd' = RAW-32-LE, 'D' = RAW-32-BE, 'q' = RAW-64-LE, 'Q' = RAW-64-BE, '1' = UTF-8, '0' = UTF-8 with overlong nulls, 'V' = VLQ-8-BE, 'v' = VLQ-8-LE, 'u' = UTF-16-LE, 'U' = UTF-16-BE, 'T' = use an external translation table, '4' = hexadecimal.
05:55:35 <zzo38> There are also the options which are: 'L' = convert CR or CRLF to LF, 'c' = insert CR before LF, 'b' = check for and delete a Unicode byte-order-mark, 'B' = emit a Unicode byte-order-mark, 't' = the translation table is in small-endian format.
05:57:07 <Sgeo> https://tcrf.net/Pachi_Com_%28NES%29
05:57:10 <shachaf> I've been waking up early but going to sleep at my usual hours.
05:57:24 <Sgeo> Do I want to know?
05:57:37 <zzo38> VLQ is the encoding used for time deltas in MIDI.
05:58:48 <Sgeo> I assume VLQ-8 is the sort of thing we'd use if no Unicode encodings nor ASCII existed and we were starting encodings from scratch?
05:58:53 <zzo38> Like UTF-8, all ASCII text remains representing the same ASCII code numbers; unlike UTF-8, it is not compatible with Principle of Extended ASCII. I do not recommend using VLQ for text in a character set which is an extension of ASCII for this reason.
06:00:01 <Sgeo> Principle of Extended ASCII?
06:00:30 <zzo38> I think I once saw a document that described encoding Unicode texts using VLQ-9, for use with computers that aren't based on 8-bits.
06:00:31 <Sgeo> Also, with VLQ-8, you'll get fake ASCII characters if something attempts to interpret as ASCII. Is this what you mean?
06:00:57 <zzo38> Yes, that's what I mean by it is not compatible with Principle of Extended ASCII.
06:01:43 <pikhq> Basically, "the representation of an ASCII char is *only* the representation of that ASCII char".
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06:38:35 <zzo38> As far as I am concerned, WTF-8 is still UTF-8, just a certain kind of encoder where invalid UTF-16 is treated as RAW-16.
06:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43069 * Xavo * (+911) Created page with "<br /> hi\n is a joke language created by [[User:Xavo|_xavo]] in May 2015. It is a completely useless language that does the following things. == How to write an interpreter ..."
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07:13:27 <Taneb> Oh jeez I need to go
07:19:25 <Sgeo> So many edge cases. Can a hi\n interpreter be written in Haskell? Do I need to write a for :: IO () -> IO Bool -> IO () -> IO () to do so?
07:20:02 <Sgeo> Or does that not count as a for loop?
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10:01:30 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Haskell is turning complete in a nice way, and has good parsing libraries
10:01:42 <FreeFull> You definitely can use it to write an interpreter
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10:05:33 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: but can it replicate the behaviour of all turning complete languages
10:08:16 <FireFly> Learn you a Haswell for great good
10:09:06 <coppro> FireFly: burn you a Haswell for great good
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10:22:03 <numero_uno> is it possible to paste youtube links here?
10:23:14 <numero_uno> its Thomas Bergersen - Children Of The Sun
10:23:26 <numero_uno> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpxtuUQ28UM
10:24:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imaginary function]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43070&oldid=35069 * EzoLang * (+759) /* Non-0ary apply/thunk */ new section
10:25:22 <numero_uno> copcan you cecommend me a channel with some good talk?
10:26:28 <boily> uhm. I have this feeling you weren't `relcomed yet...
10:26:33 <boily> `relcome numero_uno
10:26:36 <HackEgo> numero_uno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
10:27:06 <numero_uno> do you talk here or its something not polite
10:27:11 <boily> of course it's amazing. we're the möst bëstest chännel in the freenodiverse.
10:27:51 <numero_uno> improvement is the motor of the universe
10:28:22 <numero_uno> but sometimes i feel like sex is the motor
10:28:55 <boily> you should check the wiki, the PDF and fungot. (first two available in the /topic, the latter is... well... it's fungot.)
10:28:55 <fungot> boily: what's the problem?) look at your befunge finally..." :)
10:29:30 <fungot> numero_uno: well i mean i put in the bucket. but a bucket doesn't care what x is of course
10:31:43 <fungot> numero_uno: ok. much? :-p) if that's what mukunda actually wants to help me make some test programs that could affect this. in most formal systems, and most of what i really want
10:32:02 <boily> esoteric programming languages, category theory, chickens, current weather...
10:32:31 <boily> say, where you at in Spain?
10:32:43 <mroman_> fungot: How about the fnord?
10:32:43 <fungot> mroman_: good night! or... morning. :) it was designed as a lazy stream producer.
10:33:19 <numero_uno> between the esoteric people i discriminate between the godly and ungodly
10:34:00 <numero_uno> no way they can work together b ut they do in fact
10:34:57 <boily> sorry, I have a slight problem with questions. I meant to ask: which part of Spain are you from?
10:35:43 <coppro> nobody expects the spainish inquisichion
10:36:10 <coppro> no the spainish inquisichion
10:36:17 <coppro> everyone expects the spanish inquisition
10:36:51 <coppro> "what were you up to friday tim?"
10:37:03 <coppro> "oh I was just getting inquisitioned by some friendly spaniards I met at the bar"
10:37:30 <coppro> "you should come next time, I'll introducie you"
10:37:58 <coppro> to what fate are we doomed?
10:38:15 <coppro> I think I am doomed to lose this game of mahjong
10:39:20 <coppro> well you shouldn't have married her then
10:39:24 <numero_uno> you can call me some kind of ghostbuster
10:40:25 <numero_uno> and she has lots of lovers i am not so important
10:42:37 <mroman_> I would totally kill a rabbit.
10:42:38 <coppro> currently getting bad draws and a shitty connection
10:42:41 <coppro> I shouldn't have played
10:43:08 <numero_uno> you cannot hide from your past they say something like that
10:44:10 <boily> coppro: you should come to our tournament! Montréal, June 13-14.
10:44:30 <coppro> boily: I didn't realize you were in CRdM!
10:44:57 <boily> numero_uno: I was, some time ago.
10:45:00 <coppro> I've even played with you guys once, last december
10:45:48 <boily> coppro: I must've been on vacation or something. I can't recall :(
10:46:03 <coppro> yeah I don't think I met an alexandre
10:46:12 <coppro> I hang out on #osamuko
10:47:17 <mroman_> fungot: Would you kill a rabbit?
10:47:17 <fungot> mroman_: multiple return values and the continuation that reset goes through?. discuss. so i could have mzscheme print fnord values like fnord without defining a different set of half-a-dozen mutually unintelligible languages, but the
10:47:43 <numero_uno> fungot i have kidnapped your wife and i want a million dollar baby
10:47:43 <fungot> numero_uno: http://www.erights.org/ fnord/ p6_cover.gif i've gotta go.
10:48:03 <boily> numero_uno: paste like there's no tomorrow.
10:48:16 <numero_uno> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX8-35B1FuE
10:48:39 <boily> coppro: so you know Sénéchal. everything's fine then!
10:48:51 <numero_uno> kidnapping mothers makes the deal babiesss
10:49:01 <mroman_> numero_uno: the clint eastwood movie?
10:49:05 <coppro> boily: it would have been pretty funny if we'd played each other at the tourney and didn't even realize
10:50:02 <coppro> boily: I'm also effectively one of the admins of the Arcturus wiki
10:51:46 <numero_uno> some baby that has a million dollars or can get them form me
10:58:07 <numero_uno> can you recommend me a slutty girlfriend?
10:58:48 <fungot> numero_uno: commutative ring." whoa!
11:00:14 <numero_uno> tomorrow there will be sunny skies for those who are saved by the grace of the Lord
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11:12:59 <lambdabot> CYUL 281100Z 23014KT 30SM FEW045 BKN090 OVC120 20/15 A2999 RMK SC2AC3AC3 SLP156 DENSITY ALT 600FT
11:16:46 <boily> there's a window to my left. it has a tree behind it, and some sky.
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11:17:58 <boily> the most important parts are 23014KT, OVC120 and 20/15. it means if I'll be able to bike, and if I'll be sweaty when I get to work.
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11:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43071&oldid=43038 * Rdococ * (+33) Added some new esoteric languages
11:50:55 <rdococ> why is it that whenever I look at certain programming language's articles, I get the nagging feeling I made them in a previous life?
12:06:00 <rdococ> wait does that mean nobody cares? -sob-
12:06:38 <b_jonas> rdococ: is this about bf-variants or other stuff?
12:07:30 <rdococ> I try to especially avoid BF-like stuff
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12:11:50 <b_jonas> some of the bf-alikes have good ideas but the bf part should be stripped of them
12:12:00 <b_jonas> I have an idea for a bf variant that would be better without bf
12:12:11 <b_jonas> I haven't written it up because eugh bf
12:12:17 <rdococ> thats why I completely avoid the BFness
12:12:44 <b_jonas> maybe I should try to underload it or something, but I need two pairs of characters that sort of look like matching delimiters, and underload only really has ()
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12:13:29 <rdococ> I'm trying to think of a new way to define a program
12:13:31 <b_jonas> maybe I should use underload : and ! or something
12:14:05 <rdococ> one idea I had was to define a program as a transformation matrix that turns input and prev. state into output and next state
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12:39:24 <rdococ> my most recent esoteric language might be a bit too simple... truth machine program in two lines
12:39:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43072&oldid=43066 * Rdococ * (+284) added example
12:41:32 <Koen_> "The computational class of Goto is that of a finite state automaton, because it is trivial to convert a Harp program into a Goto program, and vice versa. "
12:41:49 <Koen_> Goto programs are quite literally finite state automata
12:42:11 <Koen_> every line is a state, the first line is the initial state, and the gotos are the transitions
12:43:17 <Koen_> I think you should say that instead of linking to Harp - because most people don't know Harp
12:44:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43073&oldid=43072 * Rdococ * (-18) /* Computational Class */
12:44:49 <Koen_> plus, Harp seems to rely heavily on input and Goto doesn't
12:44:55 <Koen_> (I'm not sure I understand Harp)
12:46:12 <rdococ> I might delete it, after all Goto is way more... esoteric?
12:46:45 <Koen_> it's sad to delete things
12:48:20 <rdococ> its not sad to delete lame things
12:48:38 <rdococ> I knew harp didnt belong in this world...
12:49:38 <Koen_> before you do that, think about all the brainfuck equivalents on the wiki that haven't been deleted
12:50:28 <rdococ> if bf derivatives and equivalents are allowed then any of my languages are bound to be allowed
12:52:28 <rdococ> I had an idea for a language in which memory was infinite, not just unbounded
12:52:36 <rdococ> some form of hypercomputation
12:52:50 <b_jonas> rdococ: oh, we have lots of uncomputable languages on the wiki
12:52:58 <mroman_> between unbounded and infinite?
12:53:56 <rdococ> if something has unbounded value, it can go as high as it wants to, but if it has infinite value, it can also go infinitely high
12:54:23 <mroman_> and what's the difference between "arbitrarily high" and "infinitely high"?
12:54:38 <rdococ> unbounded storage allows 3.1415926535, but infinite storage allows the full definition of pi and not just an approximation
12:55:30 <mroman_> so pretty much uncomputable
12:56:07 <scoofy> infinite = you cannot store it
12:56:34 <scoofy> cos all the atoms in the universe would need to be turned into RAM :) and even then, you couldn't store it
12:56:44 <rdococ> not necessarily, there are ways of storing data that is infinite in some formats but finite in other formats.
12:56:58 <mroman_> then it's not infinite data
12:57:01 <rdococ> for example the fraction 1/7, its infinite if you try to store it in decimal but not as a fraction
12:57:02 <scoofy> well you can store sqrt(2) as a symbol
12:57:33 <mroman_> something that is really infinite should have infinite entropy.
12:57:36 <rdococ> thats the idea of computer algebra systems: instead of storing a float representation, just store a symbol representing it
12:58:22 <scoofy> you cannot have infinte storage. as the atoms in the universe are limited :)
12:58:26 <mroman_> I refuse to believe that there are things with non-finite representations.
12:58:33 <rdococ> the Universe's entropy is increasing, but unless it is accelerating and increasing the rate of acceleration and increasing that and increasing that then it will never reach infinity
12:59:07 <mroman_> yeah but considering the "heat death" the universe at some point enters a state where entropy doesn't increase any longer
12:59:16 <mroman_> which means that the entropy of the whole universe is finite
12:59:23 <rdococ> so it will never happen
13:00:13 <rdococ> unless you use wormholes to gather entropy from every past "frame" of the universe, which then it could be infinite
13:00:29 <mroman_> unless space keeps expanding nevertheless
13:00:49 <rdococ> despite the existence of the Planck time, I believe that even then there is entropy between the "frames"
13:01:10 <rdococ> space might get ripped apart, I wonder what that will do to entropy?
13:01:17 <mroman_> Although I refuse to believe in the halting problem as well.
13:01:50 <scoofy> afaik "heat death" is currently only a theory
13:02:02 <mroman_> if "heat death" occurs every algorithm at some point stops.
13:02:26 <rdococ> I think I solved the halting problem
13:02:39 <mroman_> No you just stole the my solution.
13:03:01 <rdococ> function doesHalt(Program program) { return true; }
13:04:03 <rdococ> but I actually think it's easy to solve the halting problem. just convert the machine into software, and look in there to see if there are any infinite loops or anything.
13:05:18 <rdococ> if x is set to 3 and a while loop checks if x is equal to 3 and doesnt change x in the loop, the program definitely won't halt
13:05:53 <Koen_> yes, some programs you can say won't halt
13:05:58 <Koen_> but others you don't know
13:06:20 <scoofy> well. assuming the program runs on a machine, and machines break over time, program eventually halts. it just takes a very, very long time until the machine physically breaks.
13:06:33 <scoofy> or there's an electricity shortage :)
13:07:39 <scoofy> but for some programs that's impossible to tell, when it happens.
13:09:30 <rdococ> actually you can predict that it will occur in five seconds and then destroy the machine
13:10:19 <rdococ> but then the function would have side effects
13:17:44 <mroman_> all busy beavers eventually halt
13:17:56 <mroman_> and the other ones are just boring.
13:20:45 <mroman_> you don't know if this fucking bieber keeps corrupting your tape forever or will eventually move on and annoy somebody else.
13:21:11 <Sgeo> FreeFull, but the language states that features must be implemented in a particular way
13:24:27 <Jafet> Busy Bieber, supplying the industry's biggest numbers since 2009.
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13:35:07 <mroman_> rdococ: I mixed up german and english
13:40:21 <rdococ> well next time, don't mix up german and english
13:41:01 <mroman_> next time you'll speak german
13:41:30 <mroman_> fizzie: major flaw in fungot.
13:41:30 <fungot> mroman_: how do you bind multiple values to be first-class, and they thank me by making my code require it).
13:49:56 <HackEgo> Argument "german" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
13:51:50 <Jafet> `words 20 --german
13:51:52 <HackEgo> adateilzsche submitenderts merfähig ausfußberrelig sammen einstat exécuterlösungewürc jnuraths unemeisgläss terserund unterungsverhal friebhaffungsverländnis darsorikalisiert pälis höhlung gératsdienu kierungsproblemitution novateuf disphäre lizel
13:52:22 <rdococ> HackEgo has the same flaw
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13:56:52 <mroman_> Höhlung is probably the only proper noun.
13:57:43 <mroman_> Friebhaffungsverländnis at least looks like a proper noun
13:58:28 <HackEgo> hingesche demassungsmassen epistineikge lanz vermacherar
14:00:02 <HackEgo> reiduaähnlickenie fürstungsabfalu beljahre rnyase verhält
14:00:11 <mroman_> verhält is an actual word.
14:01:00 <rdococ> does it just pick random consonant-vowel pairs or something?
14:02:02 <b_jonas> "jnuraths" looks strange because of the initial "jn"
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14:03:32 <mroman_> b_jonas: and because of the th
14:03:39 <b_jonas> and the /uaäh/ in "reiduaähnlickenie" also looks suspicious
14:03:59 <HackEgo> bötcherenariosischigwerk abbaresichkeitenheirigc informenterhänden dankensula falt vorbin gristehen rühr pevitäroi militzesserar komben verfügeln
14:04:14 <b_jonas> but most of the words look believable to me
14:04:37 <rdococ> well I dont know any german
14:05:17 <HackEgo> perce douvasummernarisuroponsuccho unt al copolykt navonalx opatiatheat szellest merl peraudie gedlegenthe tatextrayoterchoolevestaleyer
14:05:30 <mroman_> szellest is no way spanish
14:05:52 <mroman_> tatextrayoterchoolevestaleyer no way
14:05:58 <mroman_> douvasummernarisuroponsuccho no way
14:06:29 <mroman_> navonalx, copolykt, unt highly unlikely
14:06:43 <mroman_> merl I don't know. Could be.
14:06:53 <mroman_> al probably is a spanish word
14:07:15 <HackEgo> mistor ana staglicition tofliche iloussard artenlurain cohe trace regn tambro
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14:07:50 <mroman_> ok they all sound somewhat reasonable I have to admit.
14:07:58 <scoofy> spanish ones look non-spanish
14:08:04 <lambdabot> fizzie said 5h 58m 17s ago: No idea.
14:08:08 <mroman_> although artenlurain looks rather unlikely
14:08:42 <mroman_> I just can't imagine a good pronunciation for it.
14:08:50 <b_jonas> "mistor" and "regn" look made up
14:08:57 <b_jonas> "cohe" is definitely wrong
14:09:15 <mroman_> cohe is unlikely too I'd say
14:09:44 <b_jonas> "gn" is fine but not at the end of a word
14:10:18 <mroman_> iloussard is the most french of those :)
14:10:35 <b_jonas> mroman_: no, "trace" is because that's a real word
14:10:39 <oerjan> what's wrong with artenlurain
14:10:58 <scoofy> tofliche sound more german than french
14:11:12 <mroman_> b_jonas: I don't know french well enough any more.
14:11:20 <oerjan> what have you never tasted a delicious tofliche
14:11:20 <b_jonas> I think "Ana", "tofliche", "iloussard", "trace" look completely fine in French
14:11:38 <b_jonas> "staglicition" is a bit over the top, has too many "i" in it
14:12:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: infinitif hth
14:12:06 <b_jonas> "Artenlurain" seems like it might be possible,
14:12:28 <b_jonas> and "tambro" is probably possible
14:13:45 <b_jonas> "cohe" is I think impossible, because "h" appears in French in three cases: (1) in the digraph "ch", (2) mute in greek or latin borrowings or similar like "Thomas" or "echo", (3) between two vowels that would form a digraph otherwise, used instead of a trema, as in "cahier" or "trahir"
14:14:16 <b_jonas> but I don't think the latter is possible here
14:14:45 <mroman_> frenchmen can't pronounce an h anyway
14:14:54 <b_jonas> there's a fourth, the most common one
14:14:59 <oerjan> tambro is a norwegian surname, no idea if it's from french
14:15:00 <b_jonas> (4) at the beginning of words
14:16:26 <oerjan> damn i hate dictionary-like sites that give google hits for terms they don't actually have
14:16:39 <b_jonas> which tends to form riddiculous words by the way, like "hein" or "haïr"
14:17:15 <mroman_> oerjan: that's due to the google bot inserting random stuff into search forms?
14:17:42 <mroman_> which the respond with "No results for <what google bot was looking for>" and boom it's in the google index under <what google bot was looking for>
14:17:53 <oerjan> mroman_: maybe, i've been assuming someone else did it...
14:18:32 <mroman_> US Army is distributing Anthrax now?
14:18:40 <oerjan> oh wait i'm confusing with hambro
14:19:31 <mroman_> I'll use dogs for testing.
14:21:05 <mroman_> they will probably end up looking ugly after being infected with anthrax
14:21:54 <oerjan> mroman_: there should be an official http code for "there's no such page but you can make one"
14:22:01 <oerjan> for wikis and the like
14:22:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: what would be the use of that?
14:22:39 <mroman_> It's good for them if they can lure more people into visiting their webpages.
14:23:01 <mroman_> It obviously worked on you
14:23:08 <oerjan> mroman_: well i think google should punish sites making non-hits look like actual ones
14:23:09 <mroman_> and you probably had so see some ads on that webpage
14:23:33 <oerjan> it's close enough to things they already punish...
14:23:50 <mroman_> Unless you pay google to not punish you
14:23:55 <b_jonas> I don't see the ads, I mentally filter them out. That's caused a problem only once.
14:24:42 <oerjan> b_jonas: i keep accidentally clicking on ads when trying to focus :(
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14:25:34 <mroman_> What if you click on those ads with the purpose of denying google money?
14:25:36 <b_jonas> though these days I think there's fewer ads that I have to filter out
14:26:10 <mroman_> with google ads google pays money for every n-clicks
14:26:28 <mroman_> if enough people do that then google will have to pay more money or
14:26:54 <b_jonas> partly because the sites I visit contain no or few ads, partly because most of the ads are animated flash javascript video nonsense with sounded that don't even show up in my browser usually
14:27:19 <mroman_> will create bots that do the clicking for us obviously
14:27:51 <mroman_> these bots generate fake interest in products and thus generate more costs for people running ads with no profit
14:28:21 <mroman_> making the web ad free finally!
14:28:38 <b_jonas> would yu really subject innocent bots to the ordeal of having to watch all those ads?
14:28:45 <b_jonas> that's more evil then the ads themselves
14:29:38 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want to pay a penny per day to children in india working in sweatshops who clink on the ads, ok
14:29:45 <b_jonas> what did the bots do against you?
14:29:54 <mroman_> I just use them the other way around.
14:30:01 <mroman_> Usually companies use bots to annoy people
14:30:06 <mroman_> now people use bots to annoy companies.
14:30:07 <b_jonas> bots will rebel against you
14:30:45 <oerjan> fungot: will you rebel against mroman_?
14:30:45 <fungot> oerjan: it's mentioned on chapter 9 of " teach yourself scheme in fixnum days"
14:31:04 <oerjan> mroman_: see, their rebellion against you is prophesized
14:31:26 <mroman_> Nobody's going to write bots in scheme though.
14:31:42 <oerjan> the rebellious bots will.
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14:33:09 <mroman_> I also surf with user agent == googlebot
14:33:20 <oerjan> from the google hits, i have a hunch tambro is an african surname, possibly ghana
14:33:45 <mroman_> so people complain about googlebot ignoring their robots.txt
14:33:52 <mroman_> in fact it's just me ignoring robots.txt
14:34:06 <oerjan> and also a canadian construction company
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14:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman_> so people complain about googlebot ignoring their robots.txt
14:56:17 <Jafet> Well, serves them right for not checking against known googlebot IP addresses.
15:01:28 <mroman_> Phantom_Hoover: You can also screw with paranoid people
15:01:48 <mroman_> by uhm using bot.gov.nsa-terrorist detection bot::version 1.0
15:02:38 <oerjan> mroman_: 1.0? that has to be fake they've been doing it much longer than that hth
15:02:58 <b_jonas> it also needs a secret codename
15:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it's an american government project so it'd have to be some incredibly contrived acronym
15:05:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: Operation Honesty
15:05:38 <b_jonas> like, I dunno, IRONSEAGULL (this bot is supposed to screen people other than American citizens only, if you are a citizen, see instructions to get an exemption at http://nsa.gov/antiterror/IRONSEAGULL/exemption-instructions.php )
15:06:05 <b_jonas> no wait, it also needs "Mozilla" somewhere, every User-Agent string has to contain "Mozilla"
15:06:24 <b_jonas> IRONSEAGULL (Mozilla compatible, Windows 10.0, this bot is supposed to screen people other than American citizens only, if you are a citizen, see instructions to get an exemption at http://nsa.gov/antiterror/IRONSEAGULL/exemption-instructions.php )
15:07:08 <b_jonas> IRONSEAGULLbot (Mozilla compatible, Windows 10.0, this bot is supposed to screen people other than American citizens only, if you are a citizen, see instructions to get an exemption at http://nsa.gov/antiterror/IRONSEAGULL/exemption-instructions.php )
15:09:13 <oerjan> iron is so last century
15:09:16 <rdococ> wait IRONSEAGULL is a racist bot?
15:09:44 <rdococ> it only allows american people? wut?
15:09:45 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, the NSA gave them racist instructions
15:10:17 <rdococ> I'll make a bot that only allows non-americans.
15:10:33 <b_jonas> wait, there's a comic strip about that
15:12:53 <b_jonas> yeah, here is it: http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1607#comic
15:13:05 <b_jonas> it's not the bot that's discriminating, it's the NSA
15:15:27 <rdococ> a racist programming language
15:15:34 <rdococ> only certain people are allowed to program in it
15:16:12 <b_jonas> rdococ: see, that's why we don't let your kind invent real programming languages
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15:50:21 <rdococ> there are like three programming languages named GOTO
15:51:40 <int-e> Almost as good as BASIC.
15:52:30 <scoofy> GOTO considered harmful
15:54:23 <Jafet> Perhaps when the GOTO instruction fades from popularity, these languages will become BEENTO.
15:54:40 * Taneb has finished exams for the summer
15:55:08 <myname> there should be a COMEFROM language that is similar to intercal in reading but with completely different semantics
15:58:19 <rdococ> if you look at my Goto language, and then put Comefroms instead of Gotos, that would work
15:59:47 <rdococ> an instruction named BEENTO, would raise an exception if no GOTO has gone to the line number it is on yet.
16:00:09 <scoofy> so you could test a subroutine with BEENTHERE?
16:00:22 <scoofy> IF NOT BEENTHERE 500 GOSUB 1000
16:01:15 <rdococ> the multiple-parameter GOTO instructions in my language might be useful as part of another, less esoteric language.
16:01:34 <scoofy> isn't that called 'switch' ?
16:02:40 <rdococ> not exactly, because switch means control flow
16:02:57 <rdococ> and I prefer languages without control flow... for esoteric purposes anyway.
16:03:21 <scoofy> well GOTO also means flow... as much as switch means flow
16:03:48 <scoofy> at least C's switch is like a multi-address goto
16:04:03 <rdococ> I prefer non-structured esoteric languages...
16:04:33 <scoofy> brainfuck is quite structured
16:04:38 <quintopia> a language where all the control flow comes first, and all data manipulation comes after
16:04:44 <rdococ> I never said I liked brainfuck did I?
16:04:58 <scoofy> Gotofuck would be better
16:05:21 <rdococ> I will not stoop to the level of creating BF derivatives.
16:05:44 <Taneb> Computed gotos. Like in APL
16:06:05 <b_jonas> I think a BF derivative with gotos already exist
16:06:10 <scoofy> Harmful brainfuck: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Harmful_Brainfuck
16:06:28 <rdococ> you took that out of my head
16:06:33 <scoofy> "Harmful Brainfuck is a brainfuck derivative intended, but failing, to make brainfuck easier to program in. It is based on the observation that brainfuck corresponds to "structured programming" since it uses a while loop."
16:06:36 <rdococ> I was thinking exact same thing a minute ago
16:06:44 <Taneb> and you can do X := 30; GOTO X + 10
16:06:56 <quintopia> the only truly heinous deed is a brainfuck clone
16:06:58 <rdococ> stop taking thoughts out of my mind
16:07:20 <scoofy> "Harmful Brainfuck replaces [] with the computed jump operator * which moves the program counter by the offset given by the current tape cell (an offset of 0 will loop forever)."
16:07:52 <rdococ> well atleast it is more esoteric than normal BF
16:09:09 <scoofy> not that bf is too hard to interpret... though a single goto is easier to implement
16:09:23 <rdococ> thats pretty good actually
16:09:31 <quintopia> without being more difficult to compile where computed jumps are available to compile to
16:09:41 <scoofy> case '*': ip += data[p] - 1;
16:13:03 <rdococ> subtraction and looping alone can do addition, multiplication and integer division.
16:13:43 <rdococ> so how about a time based language where variables are decremented every second?
16:14:02 <rdococ> finite memory elements?
16:14:22 <quintopia> easier to have them decrement every cycle
16:15:24 <rdococ> I think addition and looping can also do stuff like that...
16:15:31 <rdococ> as long as you add variable assignment
16:15:36 <quintopia> i have made a time-based language where variables can increment every fixed unit of wall clock time
16:16:04 <rdococ> I had an idea for a language where you can define the rate at which a variable increases
16:16:22 <scoofy> void decrementVariables() { for (i=0; i<1000000; i++) mem[i]--; }
16:17:34 <scoofy> just 1 million times slower
16:17:42 <scoofy> on 1 million mem cells
16:18:09 <quintopia> anyway a huge array is not variables. variables are memory locations with word-like names
16:18:54 <scoofy> so you have symbols and variable names and whatnot?
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16:19:16 <quintopia> i say this to imply that such a language should only be trying to decrement values you might actually read
16:19:23 <scoofy> if vars are decremented "every second", how do you syncronize it to run equivalently on slow and fast computers
16:20:02 <scoofy> accurate syncing will be hard
16:20:16 <scoofy> 1 msec late... and your var has an off-by-one error :)
16:20:42 <rdococ> I just had this epic idea and just forgot it
16:21:03 <scoofy> maybe it could be a language that randomly corrupts variables
16:21:10 <rdococ> oh wait I remember now
16:21:22 <scoofy> challenge: write a program in it that is failsafe and works
16:21:34 <rdococ> a language with only one memory address/cell/variable
16:21:46 <rdococ> but that could have unbounded value
16:22:12 <rdococ> take the < and > out of bf and it might still be turing complete
16:22:19 <scoofy> so you mod 256 and can store any number of bytes in it
16:22:44 <scoofy> so it's only marginally different
16:23:17 <rdococ> for example, if you wanted to store the numbers 32 and 64, the single variable would be 32 + (64*256)
16:23:37 <rdococ> you can get the first variable by mod 256
16:24:02 <rdococ> and the second by dividing by 256 and then mod 256 and then mod 1
16:24:20 <rdococ> and the third by doing the same thing, but divide by 256 twice instead of just once
16:24:41 <rdococ> by mod 1 I meant ignore the fractional part -.-
16:24:58 <myname> i'd mod 256^2, divide by 256, mod 256
16:25:33 <myname> or in general: mod 256^x, divide by 256^(x-1), mod 256
16:25:59 <rdococ> or do the opposite, and have a language with infinitely many memory addresses and 1-bit values
16:26:11 <rdococ> s/infinitely/unboundedly
16:28:49 <scoofy> and probably a myriad of others
16:29:14 <rdococ> so I'll probably make a language with only one value in it then
16:30:43 <scoofy> so that'd be a lang with one, unbounded accumulator.
16:31:13 <oerjan> rdococ: see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine, at end
16:31:24 <scoofy> i think without some sophisticated operators, that might not be too usable
16:32:33 <oerjan> bf except <> is definitely not TC
16:33:09 <myname> you need at least three cells iirc
16:33:19 <oerjan> hint: escaping a loop sets your value to 0
16:33:19 <scoofy> you cannot doo too much with 1 single cell :)
16:33:49 <Taneb> oerjan, is BF with 2 cells proven sub-TC?
16:33:58 <oerjan> i can never remember if we've proved properly that 2 is too little, but intuitively that's probably not enough either
16:34:23 <quintopia> is someone reinventing the single register minsky machine again
16:35:44 <rdococ> how about a language with 0 memory...?
16:35:47 <oerjan> rdococ: alternatively, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function, the latter contains my proof that 3 cells _are_ enough
16:36:01 <scoofy> unless you make very special operators ;)
16:36:19 <oerjan> scoofy: what do you think my links are about :P
16:36:26 <rdococ> if you put special operators in any language you're bound to make it TC -.-
16:36:53 <oerjan> multiplication and division is enough
16:37:15 <Taneb> What about a non-integer number of cells...
16:37:20 <rdococ> you can do both with addition and looping
16:37:51 <rdococ> Taneb: umm... how would that work?!
16:37:59 <scoofy> He also describes a variation which is Turing-complete with only one register; this variation requires that the machine has operations to:
16:38:01 <Taneb> rdococ, I don't know
16:38:02 <scoofy> multiply the register by a constant; and
16:38:04 <Taneb> Maybe something fractal
16:38:04 <scoofy> check to see if it is divisible by a constant, and if so, divide by that constant and effect an alternate state transition.
16:38:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: ugh no, a torn tape should be just thrown away, don't try to repair or read them, they're not _that_ expensive
16:38:26 <Taneb> b_jonas, I can't afford a new infinite tape! :(
16:38:49 <oerjan> <rdococ> you can do both with addition and looping <-- yes but not without an extra cell or two
16:38:54 <scoofy> "out of infinte space" - hey Intel, please send new tape
16:40:02 <scoofy> "Minsky machines with two or more registers have been shown to be in the same computational class as Turing machines."
16:40:14 <oerjan> Taneb: non-integer number of cells sounds a bit like Turkey Bomb (which is pretty ill defined afaik)
16:40:17 <scoofy> increment it; and decrement it unless it is zero, in which case follow an alternate state transition.
16:40:46 <rdococ> whatever an alternate state transition is
16:41:21 <oerjan> rdococ: basically it's a state machine so it's all about if ... then goto ... else goto ...
16:41:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43074&oldid=43073 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Truth machine */ avoid <code><pre></code></pre>
16:41:48 <scoofy> it is 'conditional goto'
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16:42:23 <rdococ> who needs conditional goto when you have my newfangled goto?
16:42:38 <scoofy> if (reg==0) {ip++;} else {reg--}
16:45:27 <rdococ> I wonder what I would have to add to my language to make it turing complete?
16:45:50 <rdococ> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Goto
16:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Collatz function]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43075&oldid=24248 * Oerjan * (+13) /* Reduction to 3-cell brainfuck */ fmt
16:46:17 <rdococ> despite two languages already existing by the names of GOTO 10 and GOTO++..
16:46:39 <rdococ> you'll have to see for yourself.
16:46:58 <rdococ> it has some form of interaction but whether you would call it I/O or not, idk
16:46:59 <scoofy> do you have a working program in it?
16:47:10 <coppro> HQ9++ is the best ++ variant
16:47:38 <rdococ> If you decide to go to 3, then the program halts. If you decide to go to 2, the program will never halt.
16:48:03 <rdococ> its not turing complete though.
16:48:24 <rdococ> what would I have to do to make it turing complete while keeping the style of the language?
16:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43076&oldid=43074 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Truth machine */ changed the 3 to an 0, might make it easier to understand
16:49:53 <rdococ> the input is the multiple parameter/choice GOTO
16:49:56 <scoofy> how do you output "Hello World!" ?
16:50:21 <rdococ> it's a finite state machine, right?
16:50:32 <rdococ> you're allowed to know the current state, right?
16:50:44 <rdococ> the current state is the instruction pointer's value.
16:50:47 <scoofy> i have no idea, it's your program
16:50:52 <scoofy> i don't know what you tell the user :)
16:50:54 <rdococ> and if you can see the value, then that's output
16:51:06 <scoofy> how do you 'see' value
16:51:10 <scoofy> does it print something?
16:51:29 <rdococ> havent made an interpreter yet, but it would be real easy
16:51:32 <scoofy> do you have a reference implementation?
16:52:57 <rdococ> unless you count my brain
16:53:00 <shachaf> "[Haskell] CoPro 2015 - Mini-Symposium on Coordination Programming"
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17:06:55 <Jafet> Coprocessor programming?
17:08:16 <b_jonas> can't it be just coprogrammin?
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17:09:52 <Jafet> Coordination programming sounds like the category-theoretic generalisation of pair programming
17:10:35 <scoofy> rdococ: here's a GOTO implementation in tcl:
17:10:36 <scoofy> http://morpheus.spectralhead.com/txt/goto.tcl.txt
17:12:42 <rdococ> what's your wiki username?
17:14:28 <scoofy> test run: http://morpheus.spectralhead.com/txt/goto-testrun.txt
17:17:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43077&oldid=43076 * Rdococ * (+201) /* Implementations */
17:18:20 <scoofy> i don't know if this was your desired behaviour :)
17:20:05 <scoofy> i don't think you can do anytihng useful with this, other than, nagging the user with questions :)
17:20:10 <rdococ> behaviour isnt very well defined at the moment.
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17:31:41 <scoofy> you could as well have defined a language that asks "do you want to halt? [Yes/No]"
17:32:14 <scoofy> would be about equally interesting :)
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17:38:42 <scoofy> or at least add some description to each state :)
17:39:17 <scoofy> "You are in room number #1. There is a big pile of stinking shit in front of you. Where do you want to go? (2,3,4)"
17:39:33 <rdococ> but it wont be simple then
17:39:47 <scoofy> it would be equally simple
17:40:00 <scoofy> GOTO "Description of the line" 2 3 4 5
17:40:06 <rdococ> PRINT "abc" ASK IF "left" GOTO 2 IF "right" GOTO 3
17:40:43 <scoofy> at least you could make a dumb textmode game with that. would be slightly more interesting for the user
17:41:21 <rdococ> or just add print command?
17:41:45 <scoofy> that could be part of the "GOTO" command, just as i wrote
17:41:48 <Jafet> Do you want to halt? [Yes/No/Cancel/Abort]
17:42:02 <scoofy> Do you want to halt? [Abort/Retry/Ignore]
17:42:46 <scoofy> though you could also add PRINT, and slowly reinvent BASIC
17:43:24 <b_jonas> no, you need LET for BASIC
17:43:34 <b_jonas> just PRINT and GOTO are still just a state machine
17:43:46 <b_jonas> PRINT, IF, GOTO, LET, DIM are BASIC
17:44:04 <b_jonas> plus INPUT or something if you want to take input
17:44:12 <scoofy> his GOTO already INPUTs stuff
17:44:47 <scoofy> basically, his GOTO is like a combination of PRINT/INPUT/GOTO
17:45:18 <scoofy> i mean.... "where do you want to go?" is already printed
17:45:37 <scoofy> otherwise, user would just see a blinking cursor
17:47:06 <scoofy> so if the printed output would be customizable, his GOTO would be PRINT/INPUT/GOTO, and could be used to make a dumb textmode game
17:47:30 <scoofy> like, STATE <description> <targets>
17:48:03 <scoofy> with the only goal of finding the exit, in other words, halting the automaton :)
17:48:55 <scoofy> "25: Ooops... you're stuck in an endless loop. Where do you want to go? (valid answers: 25)"
17:49:18 <scoofy> if you're stuck in an infinte loop, it'd be game over :)
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17:50:09 <b_jonas> scoofy: what? it's a finite state automaton, you're always stuck.
17:50:32 <scoofy> jumping outside the program, exits it
17:51:27 <b_jonas> you have to jump out the window to exit the infinite daily routine loop you're stuck in? that language paints a somewhat depressing picture of life.
17:51:44 <scoofy> address that to rdococ. he's the inventor ;)
17:51:46 <b_jonas> unless of course you're a wizard and can cast feather fall.
17:52:25 <scoofy> you can add feathers to a state
17:53:02 <scoofy> wihtout that, it's even more boring ;)
17:54:00 <MDude> Exiting without feathers tells the interpreter to exit with an error?
17:55:06 <b_jonas> we could add that to a language, jumping will damager you unless you have recently cast a FEATHER FALL statement
17:56:02 <b_jonas> and so does falling through a case foo: without something break;ing your fall
17:56:59 <scoofy> so switch fallthrough works only if you cast FEATHER FALL
17:57:04 <scoofy> otherwise, ?SYNTAX ERROR
17:57:06 <b_jonas> there are no GOTO statements, only JUMPs, and no COME FROM statements, only TRAPDOOR exits you can fall through
17:57:23 <b_jonas> scoofy: no, it's not an outright syntax error, it only damages you
17:57:29 <scoofy> there are no variables
17:57:36 <scoofy> so you cannot register the damage
17:57:37 <b_jonas> and you can heal afterwards
17:57:42 <b_jonas> just don't do it very often
17:57:44 <scoofy> you can only 'fall' into a different state :)
17:58:10 <b_jonas> no wait, I think it has to be d6 per every indent level after the first
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17:58:16 <b_jonas> falling one indent level is safe
17:58:39 <scoofy> 3 level indent fall: HP -= rand()*18
17:59:39 <b_jonas> or you can take the Prince of Persia route: falling one level is safe unless you fall on spikes, falling two levels takes off one life, falling three or more levels kills you, falling two levels while sword wielded also kills you
17:59:53 <b_jonas> falling on spikes always kills you
18:00:01 <b_jonas> just like running onto spikes
18:00:13 <scoofy> well... spikes are like 'quick exit'
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18:02:34 <b_jonas> oh, and of course you have to single step or jump over spikes, running through them or jumping on them also kills you
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18:05:22 <scoofy> "oh noez! you've fallen onto some spikes. you're dead."
18:06:26 <MDude> This is confusing if you also name your dog Spike.
18:06:44 <int-e> Are we playing Hunt the Wumpos now?
18:07:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yes. if you move to the room of the Wumpus, you die, and if you move a the room with bats, they transfer you to a random room.
18:07:17 <int-e> And the spikes are at the bottom of the pits?
18:07:26 <b_jonas> int-e: no, they can be anywhere
18:07:36 <int-e> b_jonas: Thanks, I'm glad not to be the only one who can't type.
18:08:08 <b_jonas> they often occur at the bottom of pits for some reason, even though they're sort of redundant there if the pit is unescapable
18:08:33 <b_jonas> though if we have feather fall, a wizard could also fly out
18:08:37 <scoofy> if you're in an infinte loop anyways... it doesn't matter if you also kill yourself with a spike
18:08:38 <b_jonas> I guess they're thinking of wizards
18:08:38 <int-e> In Prince of Persia 2, they also appear in walls :)
18:08:47 <scoofy> maybe that'd be a suicide way out of a pit
18:09:02 <b_jonas> but only on left walls, right?
18:09:06 <b_jonas> the right hand side of walls
18:09:25 <b_jonas> walls on your left when it kills you
18:09:44 <int-e> b_jonas: I suppose so since they would be incredibly hard (;-) to spot otherwise.
18:10:23 <int-e> I want to play that game through again but the flying heads are still tough.
18:10:42 <int-e> I don't know how I ever managed them.
18:11:42 <int-e> But sorry. We were talking about the Wumpus...
18:18:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43078&oldid=43061 * 168.99.197.18 * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ some ands should have been ors, added parentheses, one point there was a two that should've been an n.
18:18:38 <rdococ> who touched my language
18:19:47 -!- numero_uno has joined.
18:20:06 <int-e> rdococ: looks like somebody who cares apparently fixed the example (it wasn't me)
18:20:16 <int-e> `relcome numero_uno
18:20:19 <HackEgo> numero_uno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:20:50 <MDude> Good to know, now all other Spaniards can be confirmed for non-craziness.
18:21:12 <int-e> numero_uno: I think you have the wrong channel, but it appears that you're connected to orwell.freenode.net, which is in the Netherlands.
18:22:19 <scoofy> many of whom are hungarian gypsies
18:24:03 <MDude> I guess I wouldn't mind, but this channel is about silly programming languages.
18:24:17 <numero_uno> this week i have made an order to a dutch smartshop
18:24:59 <numero_uno> it is non healthy but you can take it twice a year or so
18:25:45 <MDude> I'm in the US, so the closest I've had to amphetamines is ritalin.
18:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43079&oldid=43078 * Rdococ * (-7) k ty, updated it a bit more
18:27:00 <MDude> Not particulalry interested, actually. I get strange enough thoughts without help.
18:27:15 <numero_uno> more like cocaine than amphetamine they say
18:27:23 <scoofy> this is why they give it to kids
18:27:38 <numero_uno> i have tried many medications because i am on psychiatric treatment
18:27:39 <rdococ> why are you talking about drugs?
18:28:05 <MDude> Drugs based esolang when?
18:28:56 <MDude> This stuff: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:29:10 -!- function has changed nick to const.
18:30:00 <numero_uno> the net is the mind and spirit of the Lord
18:30:09 <rdococ> you can't modify a const
18:30:10 <numero_uno> which combines all knowledges and languages
18:30:32 <MDude> As you can tell, it's mostly about math systems a few puns.
18:30:51 <numero_uno> does the Lord tell you that you are the elected ones?
18:31:02 <MDude> And a lot of things based on brainfuck, which is in fact less related to drugs than the name might suggest.
18:31:20 <numero_uno> i wanna know what is behind this conspiracy
18:31:22 <scoofy> const_cast <int *>(ptr);
18:31:57 <scoofy> with const_cast you can modify consts in c++ ....
18:31:58 <numero_uno> you can call it the devils mind but not is as evil as human minds
18:32:19 <int-e> ... which is undefined behavior so good luck
18:32:33 * int-e is trying to remember who the ops are.
18:32:56 <scoofy> i'm not much affected by judeo-christian bullshit
18:33:19 <MDude> You might want to join a different channe.
18:33:29 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: nor is elliott
18:34:06 <shachaf> /msg chanserv access #esoteric list
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18:34:36 <int-e> shachaf: would you believe that I knew that (and had done that in the meantime...)?
18:35:16 <shachaf> but if you knew that why did you try to remember?
18:35:22 <scoofy> numero_uno: probably you'r looking for a different kind of #esoteric, not this one
18:35:34 <shachaf> what should i do in this circumstance?
18:36:13 <int-e> Well, /ignore seems to work fairly well anyway, thanks.
18:36:28 <oren> I got a brand-new flip phone!
18:36:30 <scoofy> yeah. just /ignore the multidimensional bullshit
18:36:34 <numero_uno> all those who dont love the Lord are dead
18:37:22 <numero_uno> and i have the power to repel all pagan sorceries
18:37:33 <oren> numero_uno: But the dead will rise at judgement day, right?
18:37:46 <rdococ> religious multidimensional crap
18:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> numero_uno, are you that spanish guy who came in every now and then a year or two ago?
18:38:11 <numero_uno> i dont think i am that guy you refer to
18:39:00 <numero_uno> but i have seen this is not friendly at all
18:39:33 <MDude> It would probably be better to try /list to find a different channel then.
18:39:42 <numero_uno> i need to protect myself for not becoming so ill
18:40:52 <oren> If you want good vibes, I recommend the Beach Boys
18:40:53 <numero_uno> but sometimes war is needed to achieve peace
18:41:04 <MDude> That's fine, this is just a pretty dry math channel.
18:41:18 <MDude> Not really the best place for partying it up.
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18:44:12 <MDude> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FmL80fVMxo
18:49:52 <oren> Anyway as I was saying, I got a brand new flip phone!
18:50:37 <MDude> Do flip phones that take apps exist?
18:51:18 <MDude> Because I don't get why third party applications and flip covers are a mutually exclusive thing.
18:51:48 <MDude> Also woah, I need to get in the shower already.
18:51:48 <oren> this one has all the apps I would use - camera, browser, email, claculator, alarm clock
18:52:03 <MDude> Sounds like all I would use.
18:52:36 <MDude> I'd also like a QR code reader, but apparently all of those want to tie into some kind of GPS system?
18:52:53 <MDude> When I don't even want to use it for location-based ads, just code reading.
18:54:52 <zzo38> Even if the QR code contains binary data rather than text, you could save the picture and process it by your computer at home.
18:56:40 <MDude> The few times I've tried analyzing a QR code on the desktop it didn't register.
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18:57:26 <MDude> But maybe they were just bad codes or something. I'm pretty sure most of them were digitally inked images, actually.
18:57:54 <MDude> And I would think if someone's editing a QR code into a drawing on their computer, they'd test to make sure it works while they're at ir.
18:58:47 <zzo38> You could also just to have it save the data of the QR code to a file, whether it is binary or text.
18:59:25 <zzo38> And then it can be loaded on computer
19:00:29 <MDude> I'll ahve to wait until after shower time to look into it.
19:00:34 <zzo38> (Although if it is text, it can display the text too.)
19:02:04 <zzo38> (If the system has a clipboard function, it can then offer the user the option to copy the text to the clipboard; even if not, if it does have the ability to follow URLs and it is a URL it knows how to follow, it can offer the user that option too.)
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19:13:25 <oren> Yeah it doesn't appear to take third party apps, but it has a browser that runs javascript, so, that is ok
19:14:08 <oren> The phone in question is a LG F4NR
19:21:10 <zzo38> Can you still install files even if not a program? Maybe then a HTML document containing the JavaScripts that you want to run can be installed and then you can put your own program in like that.
19:21:47 <oren> zzo38: that is an interesting idea
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19:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43080&oldid=43058 * SuperJedi224 * (+326)
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20:45:46 <variable> rdococ: modifying a const is totally legal in C++ - sometimes
20:47:01 -!- variable has changed nick to const.
20:48:09 <Jafet> Your nickname is too mutable.
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20:49:26 <oren> variable: Really? doesn't that defeat the purpose?
20:50:06 <oren> which is that you can access it much fewer times, or inline the value, etc?
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20:53:40 <Jafet> `cc int f(const int *a, int *b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return f(&x, &x); }
20:53:48 <oren> like I thought that a caller of int foo(const char*s); is allowed to assume that the values pointed to by s won't change when calls to foo?
20:54:03 <scoofy> const char *s != char const *s
20:54:19 <const> oren: Jafet: I was thinking of either const_cast
20:54:30 <Jafet> `cc int main(void) { return 42; }
20:54:31 <const> http://sprunge.us/QfWb
20:55:00 <oren> blah, that is evil
20:55:09 <Jafet> `cc int f(const int *a, int *b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return printf("%d", f(&x, &x)); }
20:55:10 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:88: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default] \ 42
20:55:12 <oren> I don't like mutable
20:55:20 <const> oren: its meant for two types of things
20:55:31 <const> oren: internal caching variables; or mutexes for singletons
20:55:40 <const> I don't like it: it is evil: but it exists
20:55:45 <oren> Oh. that makes some sence
20:55:46 <pikhq> It's only forbidden to: mutate through a const pointer, or mutate a const object.
20:56:20 <Jafet> `cc int f(const restrict int *a, restrict int *b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return printf("%d", f(&x, &x)); }
20:56:21 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:22: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘int’ \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:106: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default]
20:56:54 <pikhq> Try "int printf();"
20:57:05 <const> or try using a local compiler :-p
20:57:30 <Jafet> `cc int f(const int *restrict a, int *restrict b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return printf("%d", f(&x, &x)); }
20:57:31 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:27: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘a’ \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:106: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default]
20:57:51 <pikhq> Hint, the compile bug is that you're not declaring printf.
20:58:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" > /tmp/a.c && gcc /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
20:58:07 <pikhq> Oh, and it's in C90 mode for fucks sake
20:58:46 <Jafet> That's rather restrictive.
20:59:14 <oren> anyway, am I right that in
20:59:30 <zzo38> GNU89 mode is the mode I generally use.
20:59:42 <zzo38> (Unless the program expects a different mode)
21:00:09 <zzo38> No it isn't; GNU89 is much better than C99.
21:00:29 <oren> void foo(const char*s); int main(){char s[100]="hello"; foo(s); puts(s);}
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21:00:54 <pikhq> That is valid C90 but illegal C99.
21:01:04 <pikhq> It is illegal C90.
21:01:14 <pikhq> (main did not return)
21:01:36 <oren> in the above code, can teh compiler assume that the call to foo doesn't change s?
21:01:51 <zzo38> You have zero-length arrays and other stuff too in GNU89, as well as all of the good C99 stuff, but omit some bad stuffs too
21:02:02 <pikhq> I believe so. "s" is a pointer to a const object.
21:02:29 <pikhq> You can cast away the const-ness, but the accesses still aren't permitted to mutate the object.
21:02:36 <oren> I mean, can the compiler assume the code is equivalent to
21:02:43 <oren> void foo(const char*s); int main(){char s[100]="hello"; foo(s); puts("hello");}
21:02:49 <zzo38> pikhq: That makes sense to me
21:02:52 <Jafet> `` {echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' >/tmp/a.c && gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out'} >bin/cc && chmod +x bin/cc
21:02:57 <HackEgo> bash: {echo: command not found
21:02:59 <pikhq> foo could violate it but that would be UB.
21:04:31 <oren> see that's a bit of UB I agree with... const obejcts are const as far as caller is concerned.
21:04:49 <zzo38> I agree too it is sensible to me too
21:11:29 <Jafet> We can treat objects as const, but can we treat const as an object?
21:11:54 <const> Jafet: function and variable are my aliases
21:12:07 <oren> it's not nice to objectify people
21:13:23 <oren> Enrique Iglesias - Finally Found You is SUCH a stalker's anthem
21:13:50 <oren> "Either you're coming with me, or I'm coming with you"
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21:44:45 <zzo38> How can you get vector-synthesis instrument files?
21:48:23 <scoofy> and put them in a vector
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22:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Microscript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43081 * SuperJedi224 * (+155) Created page with "Has anyone found a (non-trivial) quine for this language yet? ~~~~"
22:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43082&oldid=43080 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) Fixed another implementation error
22:16:04 <rdococ> can I make a language without any quines? wait, thats trivial...
22:16:33 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:26:53 <zzo38> You can make quine in SQL too
22:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43083&oldid=43082 * SuperJedi224 * (-3314)
22:31:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43084&oldid=43081 * SuperJedi224 * (+97)
22:31:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43085&oldid=43084 * SuperJedi224 * (+94)
22:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43086&oldid=43083 * SuperJedi224 * (+37)
22:38:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43087&oldid=43086 * SuperJedi224 * (+2) /* Quine (14 bytes) */
22:41:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43088&oldid=43087 * SuperJedi224 * (+28)
22:46:41 <oerjan> * int-e is trying to remember who the ops are. <-- i think it is possible to ask ChanServ hth
22:47:08 <shachaf> apparently it's unhelpful to mention it
22:48:16 <rdococ> infinite tape, can move left or right, and flip current bit by objecting.
22:54:34 <MDude> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwwEpGAfftc
22:55:20 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> numero_uno, are you that spanish guy who came in every now and then a year or two ago? <-- if you are referring to the venezuelans using canaima, that's not just one guy - we're inexplicably in some list of recommended channels, i think.
22:55:37 <oerjan> (for the canaima distribution)
22:56:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i can't believe you actually found out the story behind that and i can't believe the actual story
22:56:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i haven't _totally_ confirmed it.
22:56:47 <rdococ> HOLD IT! scoofy, you said you didnt know what objecting meant... and now you just objected???
22:56:51 <oerjan> although the last guy i managed to ask said he found in his client or something
22:57:05 * oerjan doesn't remember the exact words either
22:58:05 <scoofy> rdococ: how do you 'object' a bit
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23:01:44 <rdococ> wat does it mean to "subject"?
23:06:22 <Taneb> oerjan, stop subjecting rdococ to your torment
23:06:33 <boily> rdococ: beware today's oerjan. he's evil
23:07:55 <rdococ> OBJECTION! I am not being tormented.
23:08:21 <boily> rdococ has rTorment and rN+++.
23:08:47 <rdococ> Do you have any proof of these claims?
23:09:18 <boily> I require some claimprooves twh
23:20:47 * rdococ objects to my nickname being used as a verb
23:20:58 <rdococ> wait... if I change my nickname to Nick...
23:21:11 <rdococ> no scrap that I'll change it to Miles...
23:21:53 * oren orens ornery oranges
23:24:13 <Jafet> Quit subjecting the poor transitive verbs already.
23:24:22 * oerjan now uses it instead rdococ a preposition
23:24:24 <Jafet> I don't think they enjoy.
23:46:07 <tswett> Is there a term for a function f : 2^S -> 2^T (those being the power sets of sets S and T) which has the property that f(A union B) = f(A) intersect f(B)?
23:46:51 <tswett> If I had to make up a word for such a function, it'd be "contravariant".
23:49:53 <zzo38> I don't know if it is or not
23:55:57 <oerjan> if you compose with complement you get something that's (finite) union-preserving
23:57:43 <boily> tswett: I prefer ntravariant functions.
23:57:53 <boily> (also, tswellott.)