←2020-06-10 2020-06-11 2020-06-12→ ↑2020 ↑all
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00:29:10 <esowiki> [[International Phonetic Esoteric Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73554&oldid=73513 * Bigyihsuan * (+153)
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01:20:10 <tswett[m]> Anyone have a nice example of an easily computable function which is a bijection, but whose inverse is difficult to compute?
01:20:56 <tswett[m]> I just thought of a function which technically qualifies, but whose domain (which is identical to its codomain) is itself very difficult to compute.
01:21:32 <tswett[m]> The domain is the collection of all 1000x1000 grids of bits which loop in Conway's Game of Life.
01:21:50 <tswett[m]> It's easy to compute the next state; it's hard to compute the previous state.
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02:06:23 <zzo38> Wizards of the Coast has removed some card images from their database, banned those cards (even in Vintage, I think), and even changed the multiverse ID number of a single card. Let it be known that I oppose this kind of behaviour, regardless of the reason. (They say it is because those cards are racist. What they should do then is to stop making racist cards; they shouldn't erase the history of the cards.)
02:07:30 <zzo38> There are valid reasons to ban some cards in some formats, but probably not in Vintage.
02:07:49 <zzo38> They can, of course, put those cards in the reserve list and never print them again; that is OK too, I suppose.
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02:20:06 <zzo38> Unfortunately, the change in the multiverse ID number makes even more of a mess; if they do reverse that decision, then that card will need to have two multiverse ID numbers for the same printing, and that is no good either. Removing the new multiverse ID number is also bad, because now that number is assigned for that card and someone might use the new multiverse ID number.
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02:29:34 <zzo38> (This banning also has an unfortunate interaction with one of the silver bordered cards, and trying to deal with that (even if they undo their changes) would probably make even more of a mess than it already is. Well, I think.)
02:31:31 <zzo38> (Of course, if they are banned in some formats due to game balance problems (or because the cards are rare and you are playing a format that forbids rare cards), then they should remain banned, but this should presumably not include Vintage, I think.)
02:38:41 <Cale> I don't know, it seems fine to me for them to eliminate cards from the game if those cards no longer reflect their company's values in some way.
02:39:49 <Cale> The fact that Invoke Prejudice had a multiverse ID of 1488 is pretty suspicious.
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02:47:14 <zzo38> :It is probably just a coincidence. But it doesn't matter. They shouldn't change the past. They can change the future instead, I think. If they no longer like those cards, then they should not longer print them.
02:49:15 <Cale> I'm not sure this counts as changing the past
02:49:34 <zzo38> If you don't like the number 13, 666, 1488, 1984, or whatever, that is too bad, because in a list of consecutively numbered items (or pages, or cards) with that many or more items, those numbers will be used in their proper place. (I also don't like elevators omitting 13, of course.)
02:51:30 <Cale> Yeah, but when a racially-charged card whose image depicts pointy-hooded figures just happens to get a number by which a white supremacist slogan are identified, that's a hell of a coincidence.
02:52:16 <Cale> I see it as well within their rights to rearrange all the card IDs as much as they want
02:52:42 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose it is a hell of a coincidence. But I think that rearranging multiverse IDs (regardless of why) is problematic.
02:53:14 <zzo38> Among other things, it goes against the W3C's policy, I think.
02:53:49 <Cale> I mean, it affects some URLs, but despite the W3C's wishes, URLs rarely stay the same for very long.
02:54:31 <Cale> It's probably best that no other card take the place of that one, just to avoid confusion
02:54:42 <Cale> I don't know why they bothered assigning it a new ID actually
02:55:47 <Cale> I guess because they get to post the message that it's banned from tournament play etc. that way
02:57:06 <zzo38> Yes, it is best that no other card (or other printing of the same card in a different set, which fortunately there isn't any) takes that multiverse ID.
02:58:17 <Cale> But if you look at, say, Hearthstone -- it hasn't had to deal with this particular problem, but cards are revised all the time in that game, and people's collections are forcibly updated along with it.
02:58:43 <zzo38> I think Hearthstone is quite a different problem entirely.
02:58:45 <Cale> Of course, they try not to do it too much, but it still seems a reasonable thing to do
02:59:04 <Cale> It's a bit different because there aren't physical bits of cardboard in the world
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03:00:29 <zzo38> Yes, but it can still be a problem, and a different one. You might want to use old rules, you might not like their software, etc. Actually, Magic: the Gathering also has the problem of old versions of the rules and Oracle texts not properly being archived, I think.
03:01:35 <zzo38> What ais523 did seems reasonable though: The primary key of a card definition is the name and version together, rather than only the name. That partially avoids the problem in Hearthstone, at least.
03:02:07 <ais523> I don't think I did that?
03:02:20 <zzo38> Of course, it is too late to change it now in either Magic: the Gathering or in Hearthstone, I think.
03:02:30 <ais523> name+version is the normal primary key in M:tG databases, though (except for Oracle-alikes)
03:03:23 <Cale> As I see it, there's no responsibility for the maker of a game to continue to support any part of it, or maintain historical information for themselves if they want to make changes. Obviously, people who are interested in the history of the game can maintain that information.
03:03:25 <zzo38> ais523: You did; I have the document you wrote on my computer.
03:03:52 <zzo38> Cale: Yes, I maintain history of the rules as far back as possible. Rule history and Oracle history are very important for puzzles.
03:04:08 <ais523> zzo38: oh, you mean not for M:tG
03:04:33 <ais523> that was a bit different because version numbers are part of the card, the intention was that reprinting a card would use the same version number, but a different number could be used for, e.g., balance fixes
03:05:01 <ais523> zzo38: are there any puzzles that require using multiple different sets of rules over the course of the puzzle?
03:05:26 <zzo38> You may be right about other M:tG databases, but I don't really know. I think the artwork should remain archived, even if they would never be reprinted.
03:06:26 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know of any such puzzles, and most puzzles I know of don't specify a rules datestamp at all (except my own, to avoid this kind of problem).
03:07:22 <zzo38> What you say about version numbers, I know what you are saying, and it makes sense, but I meant as an alternative to what is probably being done in Hearthstone (at least, what I have heard; I think my brother plays), and not about Magic: the Gathering.
03:10:07 <ais523> I'm generally in favour of old versions / rules engines / patches of computer games being available in case they're superior to the current version (or more interesting in some other way), or just for historical interest
03:10:30 <ais523> this is one of the reasons I dislike "inherently online" games because they often have no way to play an old version
03:10:39 <zzo38> Yes, I agree with that.
03:11:01 <Cale> Yeah, all else being equal, that's preferable
03:14:57 <Cale> Chess 1.2 Patch Notes: * Fixed a bug introduced with faster pawns in 1.1 where pawns would sometimes capture a piece on different square from the one where they were going. * Fixed a bug where castling sometimes wouldn't work when unrelated back-rank squares were under attack. * We're aware of the bugs where pawns can't capture the piece that's in front of them, and can't move diagonally in cases where they're not
03:14:58 <Cale> capturing a piece, and are working on fixes - stay tuned in the next patch.
03:16:09 <zzo38> (There are other reasons to dislike "inherently online" games too; the reason you specify is only one of the reasons.)
03:23:59 <zzo38> Does anyone still maintain the old Oracle texts and artwork? Does anyone maintain even changes to multiverse ID numbers if needed? What about rule changes? I think Yawgatog used to do some of these, but no longer does. I have a directory on my computer of all versions of the rules since 2007-05-01, but I am interested in older rules too, because there are puzzles older than that.
03:32:02 <zzo38> I reconstructed an old puzzle from the solution, but it doesn't work with modern rules.
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08:06:15 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73558&oldid=73525 * Chris Pressey * (-6) "natural language" is common and accepted terminology
08:09:12 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73559&oldid=68129 * Chris Pressey * (-6) Rewrite for clarity
08:13:49 <esowiki> [[Category:Pseudonatural]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73560&oldid=73559 * Chris Pressey * (+124) More clarify contents of category as they currently are
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08:21:59 <esowiki> [[SMETANA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73561&oldid=65621 * Chris Pressey * (+27) +cat
08:56:23 <esowiki> [[Talk:Unary Filesystem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=73562 * D * (+265) Created page with "== An example program please? == This language indeed made me laugh. But I could never understand anything without examples, care to program an example of Hello World, for exa..."
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09:19:35 <esowiki> [[Talk:Burro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73564&oldid=34908 * Chris Pressey * (+694) Continue a conversation from 8 years ago, why not
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09:23:30 <esowiki> [[Unary Filesystem]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73565&oldid=71743 * Chris Pressey * (+4) +link
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09:54:55 <esowiki> [[Onoz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73570&oldid=38061 * Chris Pressey * (+4) +link, make capitalization consistent
10:00:25 <esowiki> [[Cat program]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73571&oldid=38761 * Chris Pressey * (+183) Add pro tip.
10:34:12 <cpressey> Suppose R0, R1, R2... Rn are rewrite rules (each one has the form Pn -> Sn where Pn is the pattern and Sn is the substitution). Now suppose Rn + Rm means: if Pn matches you apply Rn, if Pm matches you apply Rm. And suppose Rn * Rm means: if both Pn and Pm match you apply both Rn and Rm.
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10:39:19 <cpressey> There are obviously overlaps there that you'd want to deal with, i.e. in both + and *, what if both Pn and Pm match?
10:40:18 <cpressey> But, assuming you took care of that, it seems like it would be a nice system to work with.
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10:47:51 <cpressey> int-e: You know something about rewriting, have you ever seen something like that, does it have a name?
10:58:44 <cpressey> Obviously, | and & might be more evocative symbols for those operators, than + and *
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12:47:47 <esowiki> [[Laundry shop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73577&oldid=61305 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-4) replace <i> with ''italic''
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13:27:54 <int-e> cpressey: Sounds a bit odd, mainly because we're usually operating on trees so a global conjunction usually isn't very meaningful. There are various forms of conditional rewriting which can potentially test applicability of rules wrt. the redex at hand...
13:28:19 <int-e> cpressey: the disjunction of course is the default mode of operations--pick any applicable rule and apply it.
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13:37:06 <cpressey> int-e: Thanks. It intrigues me. I may play with it a bit, see how oddly it turns out.
13:39:14 <int-e> Another thing that I've seen is a maximal multistep, in which one picks a maximal set of non-overlapping redexes in a term, and contracts them simultaneously.
13:40:00 <int-e> So that's a kind of conjunction. But people usually do this with orthogonal systems (which make the maximal multistep unique...)
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16:05:40 <fizzie> "NaN.aN" is a nice number.
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16:14:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: Yawgatog still has the old rules diffs, they go back a few years before 2007, but for rules older than that, I've no idea.
16:16:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: did Scryfall have these large downloadable files https://scryfall.com/docs/api/bulk-data the last time we looked, or did it only have the more interactive API?
16:22:46 <b_jonas> "Wizards of the Coast has removed some card images from their database, banned those cards (even in Vintage, I think), and even changed the multiverse ID number of a single card. ... They say it is because those cards are racist." wait what? do you have a link?
16:24:13 <zzo38> Yes, I do, and I think that it is a misapplication of anti-racism. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/depictions-racism-magic-2020-06-10
16:25:34 <zzo38> (Misapplication of anti-racism and anti-[other bad stuff too] seems to be too common.)
16:27:32 <b_jonas> including Crusade?
16:28:09 <b_jonas> that's rather ridiculous
16:29:01 <b_jonas> so those are more racist than Eyeblight's Ending?
16:31:33 <b_jonas> nice, they ban Cleanse, but not Virtue's Ruin because nobody cares about Portal
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16:39:39 <zzo38> People have made these same complaints, although my own complaints are different. They should not ban those cards in Vintage, and otherwise the cards should be banned only due to the game balance purposes (or because some of the cards are rare and they are playing Pauper format, which forbids rare cards). And they should never change Multiverse ID numbers.
16:39:52 <zzo38> The damage has been done, but trying to undo those changes might make it worse.
16:41:52 <zzo38> (Removing the card images is probably the least bad thing, since the Oracle text and rulings are still there and you can probably find the pictures elsewhere anyways.)
16:42:47 <b_jonas> "the artwork should remain archived" => Gatherer is missing so many card versions that it hardly matters if they lose the images of a few more, it's just that announcing this selection of cards as banned was probably a bad decision for htem
16:43:53 <b_jonas> as for Multiverse ids, I don't really trust those as being constant. haven't the ids changed when they replaced Gatherer with New Gatherer, and before that when they introduced Gatherer? hmm, I'll have to look up one of my old Oracle dumps
16:43:59 <zzo38> Yes, that is true; Gatherer is missing so many card versions, which of course is a different problem, but others archive them anyways.
16:44:40 <zzo38> I don't know, although I seem to remember changing some links to the old card database with a new link, and the old ID numbers continuing to work.
16:46:14 <b_jonas> hmm no, the multiverse ids were in the old Gatherer pages too
16:46:20 <b_jonas> so they probably haven't changed
16:46:54 <b_jonas> "others archive them anyways." => no, there's only one group that archives them, it's Scryfall, and it's quite possible that even they missed something
16:47:13 <b_jonas> and/or that they will just give up and won't be able to continue the work from their income
16:47:29 <zzo38> O, OK, but if they did miss something, I should think that you should notify them of anything that they have missed.
16:47:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: if they did miss something, it'd be an obscure card I've never heard about
16:49:46 <zzo38> O, OK.
16:50:21 <b_jonas> I did notify them about interface problems, as opposed to missing cards
16:51:31 <b_jonas> they are connected with multiple large card market websites, so any card that's on sale somewhere will be in their database (possibly after some processing delay)
16:51:42 <b_jonas> on sale as a single that is
16:51:57 <b_jonas> they can't guess what's in booster packs sold unclosed
16:52:17 <b_jonas> and a card version has to be really obscure to not exist on sale
17:01:30 <esowiki> [[Hurgusburgus]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73609&oldid=60457 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-7) unpipe
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17:38:17 <zzo38> I also thought to make up a puzzle with these seven cards. What I thought of is: Invoke Prejudice on the battlefield under your opponent's control, Cleanse and Jihad (and maybe also Imprison) in your hand, and the rest in the battlefield under your control. However, I like ideas such as "Any Card Will Do" (p 10-11 of the Magic: the Puzzling book by Rosewater).
17:57:31 <esowiki> [[NeverGonna]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73614&oldid=72362 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (+8) /* Syntax */ shouldnt it be "orange"?
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18:59:16 <esowiki> [[Piet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73620&oldid=73573 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+6504) Added a lot of stuff
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19:00:48 <esowiki> [[Talk:Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73622&oldid=73621 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+0)
19:01:01 <esowiki> [[Talk:Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73623&oldid=73622 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+2)
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19:45:44 <shachaf> zzo38: I got rid of the « and » character.
19:45:47 <shachaf> Do you like this?
19:48:16 <zzo38> Got rod if it in what?
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20:06:29 <int-e> . o O ( <shachaf> zzo38: I got rid of the and character. )
20:07:35 <shachaf> zzo38: The file I linked before.
20:07:41 <shachaf> https://slbkbs.org/tmp/mop/mop.h
20:08:04 <shachaf> Is GNU-style options-after-arguments behavior a good idea?
20:10:30 <zzo38> I don't really like the GNU-style options-after-arguments.
20:14:25 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't like gnu style options after options, but we can't get rid of it now
20:14:48 <shachaf> Options after options?
20:15:11 <b_jonas> so you have to assume that any program may or may not accept options after arguments, depending on what libc you compile it with, and be careful with arguments that start with a hyphen accordingly
20:15:18 <b_jonas> options after non-option arguments, sorry
20:18:58 <zzo38> I think that in some programs it is useful to specify options after another argument that takes its own options, such as if it an interpreter, then presumably the options for the interpreter should come before the filename, and options for the program being interpreted come after the filename.
20:21:00 <zzo38> Some programs use some other way to specify, such as in Ghostscript, if you write -- before the filename of the PostScript program, then options before -- are the options for Ghostscript (such as safe/unsafe mode, or the output device selection), and the options after the filename are the arguments to the PostScript program.
20:22:40 <zzo38> Another example (currently not implemented in any implementation I know of, though) is NES/Famicom emulation. The options for the interpreter itself come before the first cartridge filename; after that are the mapper arguments if any (most mappers do not use any arguments), and if a mapper argument is another cartridge, that one can in turn take its own mapper arguments, etc.
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21:57:27 <zzo38> What is the Plan 9 bitmap format? Apparently Ghostscript can write out this format. It seems to be like Netpbm format 4, but with a different header: gp_fprintf(pstream, "%11d %11d %11d %11d %11d ", 0, 0, 0, pdev->width, pdev->height)
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23:06:24 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73632&oldid=73620 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+1) fixed a typo
23:06:46 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73633&oldid=73632 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+0) fixed a typo
23:07:23 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73634&oldid=73633 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (-1) fixed a typo
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23:09:58 <esowiki> [[Piet]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=73635&oldid=73634 * NotVeryGoodAtThis * (+14) clarified roll / fixed inconsistencies
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