←2021-01-27 2021-01-28 2021-01-29→ ↑2021 ↑all
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01:11:32 <esowiki> [[AF]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80354&oldid=77164 * PythonshellDebugwindow * (-30) Rm red at
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03:25:57 <esowiki> [[Befunge]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80355&oldid=80300 * Quintopia * (+56) fix broken link
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06:49:29 <kmc> I'm working on an OpenSCAD quine: https://i.imgur.com/q9dUZz8.png
06:49:29 <kmc> the physical shape of it is inspired by https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:271769/files
06:49:29 <kmc> but it's not printable yet, and i still want to tweak the appearance and might even go for a completely different concept
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06:51:29 <kmc> also the code's messy, and i've been editing it directly in "minified" form so it's hard to make it not a mess
06:52:02 <kmc> should probably write a script which minifies it and handles the duplicated section for me
06:54:30 <kmc> still, it satisfies the basic goal of a nontrivial 3D shape which contains as embedded text the full OpenSCAD code to reproduce itself, including the embedded text
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07:52:00 <b_jonas> kmc: ah, one of those graphical quines
07:53:03 <b_jonas> except this one might be printable
07:53:16 <b_jonas> I mean you could modify it to be printable
08:20:43 <kmc> yeah
08:20:45 <kmc> I would like to
08:21:07 <kmc> do you know of any other 3D-object graphical quines?
08:32:58 <nakilon> I guess if you make a 3d printer that prints a 3d printer...
08:34:33 <nakilon> so is any reproducing life form
08:35:01 <nakilon> so when you finish your thing you'll make a lazy kind of life form I guess...
08:35:36 <nakilon> it will be in a symbiosis with you to reproduce
08:36:28 <nakilon> same as any quine though but it will be material...
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08:53:15 <kmc> I got the minifier working, so now i can write a more-or-less normal-looking OpenSCAD file with comments and stuff, that has access to its own minified form as a variable
08:53:54 <kmc> this will make iterating on the mechanical and aesthetic aspects of the design much easier
08:56:50 <kmc> the main limitation is that i can't use string literals in the code, but i don't see that being a huge issue
08:58:40 <kmc> aside from the quine construction itself, I only need one string literal (for the font name), and that's easily handled as a special case
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09:02:44 <razetime> .
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09:53:21 <b_jonas> "aside from the quine construction itself, I only need one string literal (for the font name)" => or a hard-coded tiny font :)
09:54:56 <b_jonas> perhaps I should golf a (2d) graphical quine with a tiny font embedded in it. there's a small sized font that I started to work on and should finish that could sort of work for this. it's a variable pitch, but I could make a fixed width version of it.
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10:38:46 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AlgyCuber * New user account
10:59:43 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80356&oldid=80336 * AlgyCuber * (+209) /* Introductions */
11:07:19 <nakilon> there should be a richtext language
11:09:30 <nakilon> if you write blue text on red text they should run in two threads
11:10:32 <rain1> brilliant idea
11:10:42 <rain1> you sould have to program it in sewing
11:10:52 <rain1> so you literally use separate threads
11:11:55 <nakilon> there are some syntaxes for programmable sewing machines
11:12:16 <rain1> ok so we just need to invert one of those
11:12:17 <nakilon> so those can be used for metaprogramming
11:13:13 <nakilon> there which thread is above another one means the thread priority
11:18:28 <nakilon> also I suppose these schemes https://i.imgur.com/8JJrrsg.png
11:18:51 <nakilon> can be directly translated into some classic esolangs
11:19:04 <nakilon> so you could interpret your sweater
11:24:28 <nakilon> https://www.google.com/search?q=cellular+automata+crocheting&sxsrf=ALeKk03ebtjpxyOvd6w1W-b-XazZZc5KbA:1611833044490&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiW5raAwr7uAhWLuIsKHfG6BLAQ_AUoAXoECBMQAw&biw=2048&bih=1089&dpr=1.25
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11:57:20 <esowiki> [[Negate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80357&oldid=79565 * OsmineYT * (+592)
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12:05:27 <ais523> <arseniiv> ais523: may I ping you, maybe you have a clue about that ← I'm not sure if it has a particular name; it would normally be implemented using subtyping, but I agree with you that it isn't in of itself subtyping
12:05:46 <ais523> there's this concept of "modalities" in type systems which might also be related, but I don't think it's the same
12:06:27 <ais523> in other news, I recently learned that in 2007 (and possibly still today), London Underground was using punched tape in order to control the scheduling of their trains
12:06:40 <ais523> (the tape is plastic, not the traditional paper, probably to make it more durable)
12:06:57 <arseniiv> hi!
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12:09:53 <ais523> hi
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12:32:35 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80364&oldid=80363 * OsmineYT * (+16)
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12:48:27 <esowiki> [[User:OsmineYT/common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80367 * OsmineYT * (+23) Created page with "alert("Hello, World!");"
12:53:25 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80368&oldid=80356 * ParticleCat314 * (+186) /* Introductions */
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14:43:18 <fizzie> "The photic sneeze reflex (also known as Autosomal Dominant Compelling Helio-Ophthalmic Outburst (ACHOO) syndrome --"
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15:37:33 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80371&oldid=80178 * Bo Tie * (+77) Clarification
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17:33:11 <b_jonas> punched card to control the scheduling of the metro? wow
17:35:56 <b_jonas> When I'm wearing a loaded medium-sized backpack (one that has only shoulder straps, no waist strap), it pulls my shirt or jacket back, and in warmer weather when I'm not wearing a heavy jacket, it also keeps pulling the bottom back of my shirt or jacket up. Is this something normal that happens to other people?
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18:18:27 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80372&oldid=80352 * Not applicable * (+213) add descriptions of libraries
18:19:33 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80373&oldid=80372 * Not applicable * (+88) /* Built in */ oops i forgot the builtins
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18:22:10 <esowiki> [[Stupidc]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80374&oldid=80373 * Not applicable * (+60) /* stupidc.scl */ damnit i forgot stupidc too
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18:39:30 <esowiki> [[V]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80375&oldid=80371 * Bo Tie * (+0) I am dumb and I was never correct
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18:50:02 <kmc> b_jonas: yeah, a hardcoded font could work, although it would probably increase the size quite a bit
18:50:25 <kmc> but it would give me more control over the appearance and also let me deal with some mechanical issues like the dot that's hanging in midair inside '0'
18:53:07 <b_jonas> you could solve the hanging thing by having a baseplate with the letters concave or convex
18:53:13 <b_jonas> engraved or embossed
18:59:33 <kmc> yeah
18:59:53 <kmc> i do like the see-through look of the pi tower though
19:00:00 <kmc> it's very eye-catching
19:02:05 <kmc> cathy points out it will attract dust like crazy and I think that's true, but I can blow it out with canned air
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19:30:57 <kmc> hmm an embossed object would also be able to stamp / print its own source code onto paper
19:31:00 <kmc> that's kind of cute
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20:51:19 <kmc> nakilon: I like your richtext language idea
20:51:32 <kmc> perhaps bold code should have the highest priority, followed by normal, followed by italic?
20:55:58 <kmc> in ALGOL keywords have to be written in bold, and you can use the same word as an identifier if it's not bold
20:57:36 <kmc> more specifically this is a property of the ALGOL "publication syntax" used in textbooks and papers
20:58:07 <kmc> and there are various different ways to denote keywords in "machine syntax": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stropping_(syntax)
20:58:41 <zzo38> One way would be to have a character set with a "keyword alphabet" separately from the ordinary non-keyword alphabet.
20:59:30 <kmc> zzo38: yes, although these old machines sometimes didn't even have space for separate upper case and lower case, let alone keyword vs. identifier alphabets
21:00:00 <kmc> (one of the "stropping" options is to use uppercase for keywords and lowercase for identifiers, when both cases are present)
21:01:53 <kmc> what else could you do with rich text syntax?
21:01:59 <kmc> there's headings, subheadings, subsubheadings, etc.
21:02:08 <kmc> which could be useful for control flow
21:03:07 <kmc> whether or not they are meaningful to the language syntax, i think maybe nested headings are under-used in programming
21:03:49 <kmc> perhaps large source files should be broken down into sections and subsections in a way such that your editor can produce a "table of contents"
21:03:57 <kmc> this can be done with literate programming, of course
21:04:07 <kmc> and is sometimes done in an ad hoc way with block comments of varying size
21:04:53 <kmc> the obvious retort is that once a file gets big enough to need these it should be split into multiple files, and most projects already make good use of hierarchical organization at the file level
21:05:00 <kmc> but I'm not sure that's necessarily true
21:05:17 <zzo38> Yes, these are possible, and literate programming already does many of these things.
21:05:59 <zzo38> Whether or not to split into multiple files depends on a few things including the programming language in use (some have better support than others, for certain uses of such files)
21:07:06 <kmc> yeah
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21:36:15 <esowiki> [[User talk:Not applicable]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=80376 * Not applicable * (+3) sup
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22:08:36 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80377&oldid=78334 * Not applicable * (-9612) made it more professional
22:16:29 <kmc> i took an embedded programming course in college which required a rigid format of a page-long comment with various fields of information on every single function, no matter how trivial
22:17:33 <kmc> admittedly this was in assembly, so there is more to keep track of by hand than you would have in a high-level language
22:17:37 <kmc> but it was still pretty excessive
22:19:14 <kmc> my general philosophy about commenting is that most code is boring, and most boring code can be written in a way that's self-explanatory, so comments should be saved for the not-boring code
22:19:48 <zzo38> Yes, and I use more comments in assembly language than in other programming languages generally I think, although not usually really long comments like that (although sometimes they are appropriate, for any programming language)
22:20:15 <kmc> that doesn't mean there's no effort put towards documenting the boring code, but that effort goes into making the code itself clearer rather than explaining its unclear aspects
22:22:09 <fizzie> Our MIPS assembly course templates had these boxes made out of #s, but weren't otherwise that excessive.
22:22:41 <kmc> fizzie: this was 16-bit x86 assembly
22:22:49 <kmc> 80186 to be more specific
22:23:21 <kmc> a chip obscure enough that searching for documentation often brought one back to the course website :/
22:24:02 <kmc> why was an embedded systems course taught in 2006-ish using 80186 instead of PIC or AVR? well... that's a good question
22:24:31 <fizzie> I've been seeing a lot of articles about the RPi Pico thing, it looks p. nifty.
22:24:47 <zzo38> (When I do write long comments, they are often describing data layouts and stuff like that.)
22:24:54 <kmc> even 8051 would be more relevant to industry practice today, although it's older than 80186
22:25:00 <kmc> fizzie: yeah
22:25:13 <kmc> I don't know if you were here when I was talking about the PIO state machines, but they're nifty and esolang-like
22:25:27 <kmc> almost reminds me of TIS-100 or something
22:25:30 <fizzie> I must've missed that, but yeah, that was my thought as well.
22:25:42 <fizzie> With a 32-instruction limit or something.
22:26:09 <kmc> yeah
22:26:39 <kmc> there are two PIO units, each with a single 32-instruction memory and 4 independent state machines
22:27:05 <kmc> so those 4 state machines can be executing the same code or different ones, but the total code for all 4 has to be at most 32 instructions
22:28:02 <kmc> each state machine also has a 4-word TX FIFO and a 4-word RX FIFO, or if you're not using both then you can join them so it's an 8-word FIFO in one direction
22:34:19 <kmc> other interesting ISA features: every instruction can set/clear IO pins as an additional side effect, and every instruction includes a programmable delay of up to 31 cycles (in addition to the 1 cycle for the instruction itself)
22:35:57 <kmc> and the speed of that clock is the main processor speed divided by a 16 integer bit, 8 fractional bit rational number which is configurable per state machine
22:38:08 <kmc> (although the fractional dividers introduce jitter, since it's a first order delta-sigma cycle-skipping thing and not an independent PLL)
22:38:15 <fizzie> I'm reading the datasheet even though chances are very very low I'll ever end up doing any project involving one.
22:38:28 <kmc> so it's very suitable for implementing protocols that require precise timing
22:39:17 <kmc> the TX/RX queues can be filled/emptied by the main processor or by the DMA engine, and the PIO state machines can also raise and wait for interrupts
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22:41:37 <kmc> another strange feature is that they can execute instructions directly out of the TX queue
22:41:41 <kmc> the I2C example makes use of this
22:42:11 <kmc> the TX data stream is a mixture of the actual data to transmit on I2C as well as PIO instructions to handle start/reset/etc. bus conditions (suitably escaped)
22:42:37 <kmc> so that's one way to work around the 32-instruction limit
22:42:59 <kmc> and also a way to have data dependent stuff happen without lots of branching in the PIO program itself
22:58:26 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Not applicable * uploaded "[[File:GitHub-Mark-120px-plus.png]]": GitHub "Octocat" logo, 120px, transparent background, suitable for light backgrounds
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23:26:35 <kmc> oh, and the IO pin mapping is per state machine too
23:26:50 <kmc> so you can load a single PIO program (for I2C, say) and instantiate it 4 times and have 4 independent I2C peripherals
23:27:58 <kmc> on 4 different pairs of pins
23:28:23 <kmc> and at different clock speeds even
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23:30:39 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Not applicable * uploaded "[[File:Reddit logo onwhite.png]]": Reddit "Snoo" logo, for use on light backgrounds
23:34:26 <esowiki> [[User:Not applicable]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=80382&oldid=80377 * Not applicable * (+171) added logos
23:36:27 <fizzie> Oof, I feel like those are unlikely to be CC0.
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23:54:45 <kmc> fizzie: the other kind of weird thing about the RP2040 is the main cores. they're fast (133 MHz) and there's two of them, but they're only Cortex-M0+
23:55:25 <kmc> my guess is they looked at the space taken by the FP/DSP features on something like a M3 and determined that you could fit a whole second M0+ core in that space and it would be better for the typical use cases of these Arduino-like boards
23:56:20 <kmc> I'm not sure what kind of RTOS support is planned or what SMP programming models will be encouraged
←2021-01-27 2021-01-28 2021-01-29→ ↑2021 ↑all